00:04:18 -!- fundamental [n=fundamen@24-148-122-247.ip.mhcable.com] has left #lisp 00:06:28 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:08:00 p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-382369.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 00:08:15 dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:09:11 Hello I'm writing a macro that takes a list of symbols !a-z and returns for each a list of (! a-z). For instance, (macro (!hello)) should return (list ! hello) 00:10:00 The problem is how will I extract this from the symbol? I tried to treat the symbol as a string with SYMBOL-NAME, and drop the ! with SUBSEQ, but how can I convert the string back to a symblo? 00:10:08 I tried (coerce "string" 'symbol) but that did not seem to work 00:10:18 p0a: INTERN 00:10:23 thanks 00:14:42 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:40 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:11 Which function can be used to iterate trees? 00:17:30 I remember some ambiguity regarding empty lists as values in those trees, and that this function is not standard 00:18:10 as data and not part of the representaiton actually 00:18:30 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:19:35 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:20:29 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:19 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 00:21:54 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:58 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:40 Anyway I implemented it myself it's probably not a standard utility 00:23:40 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 00:26:06 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:33:40 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:08 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:40:25 p0a: have a look at http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0c66e597e08be90d and http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6622a5008c15907a 00:52:35 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:53:13 -!- loz- [n=loz@164.176.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:17 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:50 -!- mcspiff [n=user@hlfxns0163w-142068210006.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:27 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:01 how do you trace local functions from the top-level? 00:56:22 (trace foo) 00:56:47 foo is undefined when at the toplevel cause foo is local to another function 00:58:07 Jacob_ [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has joined #lisp 00:58:23 oh, local functions. 00:58:35 -!- Jacob_ is now known as Guest22502 00:58:39 *hefner* doesn't know how to do that, seems to recall SBCL having a way though 00:59:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:59:13 I'll try declaring (trace foo) in the function it is defined 00:59:41 but thats not from the repl 01:00:05 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [] 01:00:26 nope, doesn't like it 01:00:42 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:01:24 just to be clear, I tried putting the (trace foo) in the body of the LABELS form 01:01:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:02:42 I think you've passed the point of absurdity in this quest, versus adding a format statement to the local function. 01:02:45 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [] 01:04:23 I'm surprised this isn't implemented, I guess format it is 01:04:42 How do I compile updated arguments of a defgeneric which has defmethods (which I've also updated) when using slime? 01:04:52 I keep getting complaints that the method doesn't match up 01:04:58 *hefner* is not surprised at all, since it just doesn't mesh with how you'd naively implement trace 01:05:24 Ralith: fmakunbound the generic function first. 01:05:40 mcox: how? 01:05:51 that's neither a lisp func nor a slime command... 01:05:54 (fmakunbound 'my-generic-function) 01:06:04 perhaps you mean makunbound> 01:06:04 ? 01:06:11 nope 01:06:17 clhs fmakunbound 01:06:17 there's no fmakunbound 01:06:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fmakun.htm 01:06:19 Ralith: it's a lisp-2 01:06:25 ...wait 01:06:26 yes there is 01:06:28 O.o 01:06:34 must have typod my first try. 01:06:51 mcox: that did the trick, thank 01:06:58 s 01:08:58 which function can I use to avoid errors 01:09:18 (with-no-error (subseq s 0 1)) I would like taht to simply return nil if indices 0 1 are invalid for s 01:09:49 Why don't you do (assert (plusp (length s)))? 01:10:24 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:10:32 Because it's valid for s to be of 0 length 01:10:51 ok then (if (plusp (length s)) (subseq ...) nil) 01:11:12 yeah I guess :-] 01:11:13 thanks 01:11:39 the problem is that it's in a let, so I'll have to include another IF, and it's already a big function 01:12:07 ie (let* ((s (symbol-name sym)) (c (subseq s 0 1))) ...) 01:12:13 and I'm aware of CHAR I don't want to use that I need a string 01:12:24 thats your problem. Refactor the code to extract some reuse. 01:12:28 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-108.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:13:18 or use flet/labels. 01:13:40 seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has joined #lisp 01:15:13 -!- seejay_ [n=seejay@202.69.200.5] has quit [Client Quit] 01:20:13 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:23:21 stuart71 [n=soverton@adsl-144-220-115.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:32 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.189.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:47 TDT [n=TDT@126.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:33 -!- stuart71 [n=soverton@adsl-144-220-115.jan.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:26:42 argh. 01:26:52 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:57 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:27:27 -!- Guest22502 [n=yong@61.181.247.170] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:58 I'm getting "no applicable method for the generic function..." when I *know* I have methods that qualify 01:29:24 e.g. (defmethod plugin-equal ((x plugin) (y plugin)) ... ) called with two instances of plugin 01:29:42 Ralith: i don't think there's a bug in the implementation. 01:29:47 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.189.156] has joined #lisp 01:29:50 so what'm I doing wrong? 01:29:58 stuart71 [n=soverton@adsl-144-220-115.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:08 oh, wait 01:30:10 Ralith: my strong suspicion is that your objects aren't really the instances you think they are 01:30:22 do a (print (list (type-of x) (type-of y))) before the call. 01:30:23 nah 01:30:27 I had a bug in my method. 01:30:32 my other strong suspicion is you haven't really defined the method you think you did 01:30:35 kind of a weird error 01:30:44 *Xach* has 120% suspicion power 01:30:45 I would have expected some sort of type mismatch 01:30:46 but w/e 01:31:02 oh wait I see. 01:31:08 So, what was it? 01:31:13 that error *was* what you would expect for that. 01:31:21 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:31:29 I just didn't recognize it cuz I've never seen it before abd 'cuz, annoyingly, slime doesn't tell you *where* errors occur. 01:31:57 I was calling 'name' instead of my accessor 'plugin-name' 01:31:59 Rothbardian [n=user@121-73-191-209.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:23 slime does tell you where errors occur, with sufficient debug declarations 01:32:38 one handy way to get sufficient debug declarations in some implementations is with C-u C-c C-c on a defun, for example 01:33:15 ..even if it's sometimes reluctant to tell you what the error was 01:34:00 okay, now I'm getting the same error in a slightly different place but I'm not calling 'name' anywhere :| 01:34:05 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:34:33 row row fight the bugs 01:34:37 oh, I know 01:34:45 it's a leftover erroneous defmethod still hanging around in the image. 01:35:04 it'd be nice if there was some way to sync the image state with what's defined in the .lisp files 01:35:30 SLIME has a handy way to remove methods from a GF, via the fancy inspector 01:35:32 yep, works now 01:35:38 Xach: hm? 01:35:59 If you inspect the GF, you can select methods to remove. 01:36:12 how do I 'inepect the GF' O.o 01:36:15 inspect* 01:36:33 M-x slime-inspect #'plugin-name RET for example 01:37:28 ahh, I see. 01:37:32 GF == generic function. 01:38:12 no forceps required 01:38:24 Anyone built CMUCL 20A recently? 01:38:47 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:13 ...holy shit 01:39:20 it worked first try :D 01:39:29 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:31 no refactor that complex has ever worked first try. 01:39:32 fancy that 01:39:41 I think I love lisp. 01:39:47 no kiddin 01:40:50 why is (/ 1.61e-34 6.022e23) -> 0.0, instead of -> 2.6735e-58? 01:41:48 [Ah; solved it] 01:41:49 Consider yourself lucky to get 0.0! I got floating point underflow. 01:41:52 because floats have finite precision? 01:42:08 ? yes but this is within their precision 01:42:14 apparently not 01:42:32 hmm hate to compare to other languages, but it works fine in python 01:42:38 -!- stuart71 [n=soverton@adsl-144-220-115.jan.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 01:42:51 python obviously used a different datatype 01:42:58 that has nothing to do with the language 01:43:10 its not a semantic thing I'm comparing 01:43:12 Try putting d0 on the end 01:43:17 there's not really even much reason to use floats in lisp, unless you're trying to do something very high performance. 01:43:17 ok 01:43:30 sorry; no....replace your e with d 01:43:43 DeusExPikachu: I suspect that is because it's smaller than least-positive-single-float 01:43:48 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 01:43:48 what you're using is single-floats 01:44:20 or set *read-default-float-format* to 'double-float 01:44:36 sweet I think thats the ticket 01:44:44 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-183.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:45:21 *Rothbardian* screams 01:46:48 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:46:56 stuart71 [n=user@adsl-144-220-115.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:58 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:48:32 Xach, what lisp are you using? I think it's better to get an underflow then a 0.0 01:49:22 DeusExPikachu: testing on clisp got me an underflow. CCL and SBCL both gave me 0.0. 01:49:37 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-44-74.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:49:47 DeusExPikachu: ECL also gave me an underflow. 01:50:01 hm 01:50:04 hmm using sbcl, I think they should change that 01:50:50 is there a way to create a reference? 01:51:05 no, I guess that wouldn't really work 01:51:55 Ralith: reference to what? 01:52:49 I think there's something you can set to get an underflow...read the manual (implementation manual; it's not in ANSI) 01:53:04 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-142.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:53:10 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:21 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-97-91.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:57 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 01:57:11 If you want underflow signaled on ccl, you can say (ccl:set-fpu-mode :underflow t). See http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#floating-point 01:57:34 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:51 I'm sure other implementations provide something similar. 01:59:49 ext:set-floating-point-modes on CMUCL...presumably sb-ext: on SBCL 02:01:50 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-44-74.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 02:04:08 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1FF7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:09 fusss [i=cb2d4a0d@gateway/web/freenode/x-0d7cc8314916fb5f] has joined #lisp 02:04:20 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-108.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:05:01 hmm 02:05:15 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-27-74.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:19 -!- fusss [i=cb2d4a0d@gateway/web/freenode/x-0d7cc8314916fb5f] has left #lisp 02:05:27 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-27-74.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:06:19 fusss [i=cb2d4a0d@gateway/web/freenode/x-446ddd2de63dbc98] has joined #lisp 02:06:21 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:06:30 greetings! 02:06:39 hi fusss 02:06:42 *fusss* just messing with the new freenode web interface 02:07:05 RIP Naggum, found that out just last night 02:07:40 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-108.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:07:53 :( naggum 02:08:21 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a0e4be9eb94da9bc] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:09:10 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 02:10:29 segv [n=mb@p4FC1C99A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:37 Hello 02:11:27 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:57 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-8152bcdf0923881e] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:02 -!- p0a [n=emacs@athedsl-382369.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 02:13:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:21 Hooray!! Finally got a working build! 02:17:44 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-66-41-11-10.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:39 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 02:21:22 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:03 -!- Cuddles [n=asparagu@pool-71-245-7-148.sctnpa.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:23:28 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C252.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:04 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@75-149-33-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:25:49 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:31:15 -!- stuart71 [n=user@adsl-144-220-115.jan.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 02:34:51 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:17 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-37.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:58 -!- fusss [i=cb2d4a0d@gateway/web/freenode/x-446ddd2de63dbc98] has quit ["Page closed"] 02:44:15 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:44:37 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has joined #lisp 02:44:50 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:52 Has onyone tossed around the idea of giving permissions to using functions and accessing symbol values? For example, every now and again someone asks about restricting the reader when reading a file or perhaps a stream that is input to some program. 02:49:48 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-139.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:17 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:51:32 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 02:52:35 Has anyone implemented some sort of 'safe-eval,' like used in lambdabot and geordi? That is, a way to evaluate (not necessarily without throwing an error) arbitrary lisp without creating a security risk for the host system? 02:54:39 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:54:58 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 02:55:30 Thats not only what it could be used for. You could have a thread, which could not execute functions or symbols outside of its own package. 02:56:04 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:58:21 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.134.193] has joined #lisp 02:58:33 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.134.193] has left #lisp 03:01:53 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Success] 03:04:01 mcox: that sounds remarkably closely related to what I'm wondering about. 03:05:20 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 03:06:11 Yeah it is, but I'm thinking more general. 03:08:11 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:08:22 Ralith: For example, SBCL puts a package lock on the CL package. I don't think it does this for security reasons. I'm not sure, but I think it is to stop people from removing feet. 03:08:26 -!- Rothbardian [n=user@121-73-191-209.dsl.telstraclear.net] has quit ["later"] 03:09:02 it would seem a little silly for a compiler to do something for security reasons like that. 03:14:27 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #lisp 03:15:36 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:15:42 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 03:16:00 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:16:11 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 03:16:13 a compiler? CL isn't just a compiler. 03:18:02 pkhuong: Looking for me? 03:18:33 Ralith: It has a very extensive runtime component aswell. 03:18:48 good point. 03:19:16 nevertheless, seems like an odd place for security concerns 03:20:26 Ralith: didn't you just advocate for a safe-eval? 03:20:33 I don't think package locks are for security; they're easy to circumvent. Package locks are to prevent the casual modification of things that shouldn't be casually modified. 03:21:01 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:21 mcox: I want that for exposing a lisp environment to arbitrary code execution from untrusted sources. 03:21:42 generally, the local user is a trusted source. 03:21:50 unless the program is setuid root or something 03:22:22 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:33 Look for some discussions on this topic on comp.lang.lisp. I think the conclusion was that it's hard to do. Lisp is tool from a more civilized time. :-) 03:22:55 well of course it's hard to do 03:23:01 you should see the measures geordi has to go to :P 03:24:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:07 Not familiar with geordi. But I'm also not interested in safe-eval. :-) 03:25:57 z4v [n=tmh@18987146231.nit.megazon.com.br] has joined #lisp 03:26:04 rtoym: haven't they concluded that safe-eval is hard to do? I'm not advocating safe eval, I was thinking more along the lines of (chmod 'cl:map 555). 03:26:08 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 03:26:37 rtoym: geordi is an IRC bot that executes arbitrary C++ code from IRC. 03:26:39 rtoym: Then you could leave the reader the way it is. For example (with-environment-permissions ((my-package 777) (* 000)) (read "my-file")). 03:26:45 very handy 03:27:26 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:28:38 rtoym: I'm that interested in it either. It has nothing to do with my work, it was just an idea. 03:29:28 mcox: I guess you can do that. Seems hard to get right too. 03:31:19 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:31:33 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:32:20 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:33:05 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:33:15 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:02 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-222-78.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:24 jlf` [n=user@alumni.EECS.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:53:10 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:18 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 03:54:57 anyone know how to increase stack size for allegro lisp? 03:57:39 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:58:24 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:00:16 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:01:33 okay, drawing a blank here 04:01:36 how do you concat strings? 04:02:00 Ralith: (concatenate 'string string1 string2 ... stringn) 04:02:10 that was easy. 04:02:35 apropos is your friend. (apropos "concat") would have given you a good hint. 04:02:42 noted. 04:04:04 you don't; you complain that "concatenate" is too long, and spend five years writing your own dialect of lisp so you can rename it "cat" 04:04:27 that sounds familiar 04:04:53 man, concatenate is too long :( 04:06:48 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #lisp 04:08:01 -!- TDT [n=TDT@126.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit ["sleep"] 04:10:22 dear shell programming gurus: under what circumstances would the following (at the shell prompt, or in a script) result in an error about the [ and "unexpected operator": if [ "$CLNET_USER" == "" ]; then echo "HELLO"; fi 04:10:56 put a space between the ] and the ; 04:11:09 I thought == wasn't a supported test operator 04:11:19 it's certainly not in my manpage 04:11:37 hefner: you probably want = 04:12:25 hefner: yeah, unless you have a different test than me, s/==/=/ 04:14:39 if test -z "$CLNET_USER" ; then echo $HELLO ; fi 04:14:45 Ralith: == is an alias for = in bash and only bash 04:15:04 and apparently not in all bashes ;) 04:15:11 well then he should certainly be using the POSIX-standard version. 04:15:34 (is test in POSIX?) 04:15:45 it has been that way since at least 2.95 or whatever the long-term one before 3 was 04:16:05 -!- vsync [n=vsync@174-24.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:06 The test utility implements a superset of the IEEE Std 1003.2 04:16:06 (``POSIX.2'') specification. 04:16:13 indeed, test is posix-compliant; it is still more portable than [] 04:16:27 [] isn't standard? 04:16:37 that surprises me 04:17:41 I wouldn't go that far 04:18:58 I think we're getting into general UNIX portability here 04:19:15 don't forget [[ ]] now 04:21:46 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:21:53 koollman [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 04:29:41 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-3-60.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:02 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:33:50 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:34:10 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-97-91.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:37:03 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:10 axius [n=tty@92.84.30.252] has joined #lisp 04:44:33 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:50:02 when using split-sequence:partition I get a deprecation warning that tells me to use SPLIT-SEQUENCE instead, but there's no such function 04:50:05 what'm I doing wrong? 04:51:23 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:51:38 bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 04:51:59 typo, probably 04:52:13 split-sequence:split-sequence 04:52:39 Ralith, cl-utilities:partition --> "depercated, use cl-utilities:split-sequence .. .." there 04:52:44 ups, -there 04:53:04 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.251.120] has joined #lisp 04:53:16 hefner: oh, it didn't occur to me that split-sequence would have a like-named member. 04:54:47 looks like cl-utilities and split-sequence have the same version of the split-sequence api/implementation here; both are deprecated 04:55:08 ..or have partition marked as depr. 04:55:33 I don't have cl-utilities 04:55:44 at least, not such that my slime autocompletes it. 04:56:33 yeah, just thinking perhaps that was why you couldn't find the function .. blah 05:01:07 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-183.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:42 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:06:59 -!- clop [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:08:00 -!- bobf_ [n=bob@host81-154-14-74.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:13 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:10:26 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:11:06 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.127] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:14:33 -!- axius [n=tty@92.84.30.252] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:17:22 ejs [n=eugen@189-106-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:50 axius [n=tty@92.84.30.252] has joined #lisp 05:18:26 faure [n=moe@CPE001217e40caa-CM0018c0c09832.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:19:35 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:30 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.251.120] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:00 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.135.23] has joined #lisp 05:23:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@189-106-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:24:43 ejs [n=eugen@189-106-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 Rothbardian [n=user@121-73-191-209.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:22 -!- jlf` [n=user@alumni.EECS.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:06 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-222-78.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:31:19 -!- axius [n=tty@92.84.30.252] has quit [Client Quit] 05:32:31 fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.23] has joined #lisp 05:40:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@189-106-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:43:27 -!- Rothbardian [n=user@121-73-191-209.dsl.telstraclear.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:44:56 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:52:14 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 05:54:38 -!- fvw [n=sdfpme@113.77.207.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:43 evening 06:00:58 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 06:04:12 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:46 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-222-78.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:50 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:07:13 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.132.25] has joined #lisp 06:09:32 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-225-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:57 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 06:11:29 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.135.23] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:17:16 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:18:51 hello 06:18:57 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has joined #lisp 06:19:01 Is there some equivalent to C++'s "this" keyword that can be used in make-instance? I want to pass the value of a slot to a function while defining the value of another slot. 06:19:39 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-225-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:19:44 Ralith: try defining an :after method on initialize-instance. 06:20:28 sounds like a good place for an eql specifier thingy. 06:20:46 but that's kind of messy, still 06:20:48 no other way? 06:20:50 an eql specifier for an object that doesn't exist yet? Sounds like a great plan. 06:20:59 er... right. 06:21:09 in that case it doesn't work at all 06:21:15 becuase this is something I want to do for only one specific object 06:21:25 then make it a keyword option. 06:21:55 initialize-instance accepts keywords (which are passed to it through make-instance) 06:22:12 (make-instance 'my-class :do-my-special-thing-p t) 06:22:26 specialcasing :/ 06:22:54 nothing is stopping you from writing a custom constructor function, either 06:23:02 good point. 06:23:02 that's probably the easiest way 06:23:05 yeah 06:24:52 -!- dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 06:25:11 dalton [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 06:25:52 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:28:34 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:29:09 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 06:29:16 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 06:29:19 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:33:13 ASau [n=user@host201-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:33:47 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@194.11.28.1] has quit ["leaving"] 06:34:19 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@ronaldann.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:41:33 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 06:44:10 Is there a way to find out what slots a given class has? 06:44:27 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.201.150] has left #lisp 06:47:27 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:47:49 roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-15-248.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 06:47:52 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:49:14 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.150] has joined #lisp 06:49:28 -!- Drakeson [n=user@69-165-133-213.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:49:35 good morning 06:49:39 Drakeson [n=user@69-165-133-213.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:39 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.176.204] has joined #lisp 06:52:40 binarycodes [n=Sujoy@59.93.160.28] has joined #lisp 06:53:01 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:53:12 hey guys 06:53:35 stuffs that i install with clbuild gets installed in the clbuild/source directory 06:53:46 how do i make it available globally from slime? 06:54:49 the way I like, provided you aren't actually using .sbcl/systems yet, is to symlink .sbcl/systems to clbuild/systems 06:55:21 ok, but i will have to do it for every user 06:55:42 is there a global system directory i can symlink it to ? 06:56:14 (that might be a little too cute for some people, possibly preferring to symlink each system file manually, or modify asdf:*central-registry* at startup to include the clbuild systems directory) 06:56:37 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dc87.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:56:48 I think that's a can of worms not opening, since you have to deal with where to write the fasls 06:57:12 leading to asdf-binary-locations (I think), or atrocities like common-lisp-controller 06:57:29 hmm, fine then i'll just use the .sbcl/systems :) 06:57:54 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:57:59 one more thing, after clbuild install package 06:58:14 i had to manually asdf:load-op each one individually 06:58:18 is there a better way? 06:59:05 -!- ASau [n=user@host201-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:59:16 ASau [n=user@host201-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 07:00:26 well, you have to specify them somewhere, either by loading them yourself, or as dependencies in an asdf system. 07:00:49 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-139-108.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:11 you wouldn't want to clutter the namespace. 07:01:19 ok 07:01:33 i am too new to CL hence all the confusion 07:01:33 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-233.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:01:44 thanks for the input hefner, Ralith 07:02:29 hefner: hey, you're knowledgable. Answer my question! :D 07:02:38 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:02:51 about the 'this' pointer? 07:03:03 I'd write a function that calls make-instance and does some magic 07:03:33 oh, your next question. 07:03:39 yeah, you can use the mop. 07:04:23 mop class-slots 07:04:28 I fail to imagine a realistic situation that warrants a system-wide lisp package configuration at all, really (other than an unfortunate consequence of using distro packages) 07:04:59 just more trouble than its worth 07:05:09 cmm, like for getting setup for all users 07:05:50 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.132.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:34 binarycodes: yes, but _why_? who are those users? are they oter humans (they'll likely have different preferences wrt packages and versions thereof)? 07:06:46 *other 07:07:33 hmm 07:07:49 Ralith: so for instance in SBCL, (sb-mop:class-slots (find-class myclass)) gives me a list of effective slot definition objects (effective slots include all the inherited slots, whereas sb-mop:class-direct-slots would give me a list of direct-slot-definition objects, which are just the slots defined in that class 07:07:50 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 07:08:35 hefner: mop is implementation-defined? O.o 07:08:44 I thought it was part of the standard CLOS. 07:10:31 Ralith: it is, but it's widely implemented, and the introspection side of it is uniform enough that all you need to switch is the package name. then there's the closer-mop library to make it uniform and wallpaper over any remaining differences you'd encounter in more sophisticated uses. 07:11:04 'kay, cool 07:13:13 also, you should read http://www.lisp.org/mop/concepts.html#class-finalization-protocol and be sure to call finalize-inheritance before querying effective slots 07:14:07 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:09 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-1-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 07:14:25 I'm not actually doing anything so fancy as working with classes like that in my code, I was just looking for convenient ways to take a closer look at existing classes. 07:14:28 thanks, though 07:14:30 binarycodes: I'd go as far as claiming that the system-wide/per-user software configuration distinction is better seen as irrelevant at least until the next "mainframe" phase in computing, which looks to be a long way off :) 07:14:39 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:14:55 cmm: I dunno, all this "cloud" stuff is awfully popular and awfully reminiscent. 07:14:59 (unless you count web-based application servers) 07:15:00 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:15:12 why not? 07:15:24 it's not like people're going to willingly go back to CUIs 07:15:45 cui? 07:15:48 Ralith: the "cloud" stuff mostly presents itself to the user as virtualized personal machines, no? 07:15:57 sykopomp: console user interface 07:16:02 ah 07:16:09 cmm: only to the same extent that any multiuser system does. 07:17:08 Ralith: OK, I've never tried it :) 07:17:32 keep in mind that 'the "could" stuff' isn't very well-defined at all. 07:17:45 but in general, it seems to be a move back to the mainframe approach. 07:17:58 that's why we call it 'the "cloud" stuff'! 07:18:32 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:18:45 actually, I think we call it 'the "could" stuff' because network analysists always use cloud graphics to represent the internet in connectivity diagrams. 07:18:57 cloud* 07:21:23 I like virtualization, myself. its UI is just so much simpler. not to mention the lack of the usual idiotic multi-user security headaches 07:22:53 kinda makes you want to prepare a stripped down VM image for running SBCL apps. 07:23:53 (except not really, because that doesn't accomplish anything but eliminating a few hundred megs of unix crud) 07:26:44 what's the ETA on that lispOS again? 07:27:45 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 07:27:54 someone's working on a lispOS? 07:28:04 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:09 I've been really interested in seeing one, but the only one I've seen seems dead. 07:28:16 hefner: do people run several lisp apps as different users on the same physical server? 07:28:22 and never got past the lowest-level driver stage 07:29:05 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:29:09 cmm: you'd still want extensive security mechanisms, though; the problem with multi-user security systems is that they're being used for things that they're not really designed for. 07:29:23 and if so, do those people feel that having a common system-wide installation of (part of) the libraries is a good idea? 07:29:24 cmm: I don't think that's very common, but hey, maybe ITA does it. 07:29:25 what'd be nice is something higher level and much more generalized 07:29:57 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-27-74.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:02 Ralith: that's almost ever nice, actually 07:30:06 *never 07:30:34 cmm: but sometimes important, such as for things like flash. 07:30:47 or anything where you want to work with untrusted data, really. 07:31:33 Ralith: I don't follow, sorry 07:31:37 The problem with a lisp OS is that you need a lisp first, and lisp is one of those things that is easy to implement crudely and difficult to implement well. 07:32:06 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 07:32:30 ianmcorvidae: yo 07:32:36 hi 07:33:02 (where "well" includes being stable, reasonably close to CL, and competitive with SBCL in tight loops) 07:33:11 cmm: Flash is a case-in-point of the desirability of running untrusted programs. 07:33:29 cmm: if you have no security measures, then there's no way to stop the occasional malicious one from causing havok. 07:34:07 hefner: doesn't mean it's infeasible. 07:34:48 hefner: wouldn't it be conceiveable to write a lisp around SBCL that runs on bare metal? Although I agree with the earlier point that having a full lisp userland is more interesting... 07:35:03 s/around/based on/ 07:35:14 sykopomp: yeah, but what better base for a lisp userland than a lisp system? :D 07:35:43 Ralith: it's all about priorities. 07:36:06 Movitz is the closest recent attempt, and I wonder how many people are, like me, put off by the prospect of an OS locked into one lisp implementation (unless it happens to be the greatest lisp implementation ever, which it isn't) 07:36:08 sykopomp: fair. 07:36:27 Ralith: such things are much better solved with application-level security mechanism, like sandboxing. which is a kind of virtualization, if you squint at it in the right way 07:36:33 hefner: how is that any different than the prospect of any arbitrary OS design? 07:36:46 cmm: that's what I'm saying. 07:36:52 ah 07:36:57 sykopomp: that's nyef's SBCL-OS approach, so it's very conceivable. 07:37:11 cmm: the multiuser system is outdated and this is visible because it's frequently abused to create sandboxes. 07:37:17 hefner: you could argue that it can eventually become the best-implementation-ever, if it gets enough attention. 07:37:19 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #lisp 07:37:25 and high-level generalized stuff (i.e. application level security) is a better solution 07:37:50 gcc got a lot of attention out of the popularity of GNU and Linux, and became pretty widely used. 07:38:09 I didn't know running movitz would necessarily lock you into a single lisp implementation, though (can't you run sbcl on -top- of that?...) 07:38:18 sykopomp: people have been arguing exactly that, and it hasn't happened yet 07:38:26 Ralith: I think what I fail to see is how exactly application-level security is a generalization of anything at all, not to mention high-level :) 07:38:47 antifuchs: well, it needs attention first, doesn't it? :) 07:38:56 sykopomp: yeah, wake me when that happens 07:39:02 cmm: eh, semantics aside we agree on the way things are wrong and should be done. 07:39:12 I guess, yeah :) 07:39:15 antifuchs: yeah, it seems unlikely that it'll even happen. 07:39:22 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:29 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:29 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:39:29 specially since lisp just plain doesn't get love. 07:39:31 Ralith: you must admit that a lisp implementation forces many more decisions on you than a traditional OS kernel 07:39:32 :( 07:40:11 hefner: alright, but it might not be impossible to address. 07:41:14 *Ralith* shrugs 07:41:17 I'm no OS designer. 07:41:21 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:41:25 I just think lisp deserves to be everywhere :D 07:41:40 time to work on stuff now. 07:41:48 (more places, certainly) 07:42:32 Ralith: to be fair, it's hard enough to get any help with -any- lisp project. 07:42:34 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:42:45 yeah 07:42:47 there seems to be a genuine shortage of able-and-willing-and-bored programmers :P 07:42:52 much more realistic to focus on application-level. 07:43:03 but it's fun to dream of a new era of lisp machines. 07:43:27 I'd settle for a new era of less unix insanity 07:43:38 better unix insanity than windows insanity 07:43:59 probably, yeah. 07:44:04 Haiku is looking pretty good these days. 07:44:11 if C++'s your thing 07:44:36 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:44:37 funny, i'm learning lisp and am considering using it as a teach language for my kids. 07:44:40 sykopomp: just because nobody is willing to work on a cause you think deserves attention means there's a lack of talent, or indeed that it does deserve attention 07:44:55 "doesn't mean" damn it 07:45:00 caffeine, start working 07:45:05 :) 07:45:10 antifuchs: oh, I'm not talking about lispOS, that's a fairly low priority for me. 07:45:14 good (: 07:45:23 there just aren't enough lispers in general. 07:45:26 I meant that there's not really a surplus of programmers that seem to magically clump into random projects. 07:45:34 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:46:16 it's just a small ecosystem, compared to some languages. It gets lonely in my-project-land sometimes, that's all. 07:46:49 maybe it's just me, but things do seem to be looking up a bit 07:46:52 from what I hear, there are lots of programmers with lisp skills willing to work for money... just not too many that would work on stuff that's publicly visible 07:47:03 I have no idea why that is, really 07:47:09 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 07:47:28 antifuchs: possibly related to a lot of lispers being quite well-qualified. 07:47:30 HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:47:40 asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 07:47:44 nobody's made an effort to attract the greater f/oss community? 07:47:52 a strong effort, anyway 07:48:03 wow, i'm boggled. make-struct isn't in "Practical Common Lisp" 07:48:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:13 oh, there's plenty of 'let's bring lisp to life' 07:48:20 Demosthenes: defstruct, you mean? 07:48:23 sykopomp: yeah but nobody's actually *done* much 07:48:26 afaik. 07:48:58 sykopomp: yep 07:49:08 the question of why lisp isn't popular seems to be discussed ad nauseam. 07:49:11 by the time a guy matures enough to appreciate lisp, he most probably has other professional priorities than working in the most aesthetically satisfying language. just a thought 07:49:20 but "Successful Lisp" covers it in the beginning 07:49:27 -!- mcox [n=markcox@203-206-252-106.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 07:49:29 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:36 cmm: i know perl enough to meet my needs, yet i'm going back and learning lisp 07:49:47 antifuchs: by publicly visible, do you mean "for free"? Or that they are blood-drinking jihadist vampires, hiding out from the authorities? 07:49:55 i do many lisp-like things in perl, or so i've discovered. 07:50:12 Demosthenes: I fail to see how that contradicts my statement :) 07:50:25 Demosthenes: PAIP covers defstruct extensively 07:50:29 cmm: I think it might *support* your statement. 07:50:35 hefner: both! 07:50:37 or wait, nevermind 07:50:42 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-11-50.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:53 *hefner* would like to meet these people :) 07:51:01 Ralith: I must be bad at human communication this morning 07:51:10 anyway, I'm now mostly convinced that for many people, writing foss software isn't the obvious first choice (: 07:51:10 cmm: no, I misread something somewhere 07:51:19 *Ralith* is sleepy and is therefore corrupting mental caches 07:51:43 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-7-184.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:51:49 when all is said and done, it's enough for me that lisp is good. 07:52:15 don't care too much about popularity if I can do what I want anyway. 07:52:25 eh. Could be better. 07:52:42 I like it, though, and -that- is good enough for me. :D 07:52:50 cmm: i didn't say it did, just that its not impossible ;] 07:52:52 it could, but you know what? It's so damn good that we don't have much reason to complain. 07:54:12 -!- binarycodes [n=Sujoy@59.93.160.28] has quit ["leaving"] 07:55:25 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 07:56:25 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:56:27 you know, "Successful Lisp" is better than "Practical Common Lisp" so far 07:57:27 asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:54 *Ralith* has been enjoying PCL and learning a great deal from it. 07:58:39 the printer language? or something else? 07:58:45 *hefner* probably wouldn't have had the patience to follow along with PCL, learning CL from CLtL1, the hyperspec, and hacking 07:58:59 s/learning/learned/ 07:59:20 pardon, its late ;] 07:59:41 (not that I have l "learned" all of CL, even if I could fit it all in my head) 07:59:53 I pretty much stopped reading PCL when the practical chapters started taking over >_> 08:00:10 hefner: I'm complementing PCL with code in a personal project, the cookbook, and random googling. 08:00:14 works nicely. 08:00:31 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-3-60.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:00:33 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:01:32 KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-11-154.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:37 its sad, i've manually written PCL (the printer language) and only now gotten into lisp ;] 08:03:53 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.168] has joined #lisp 08:03:57 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 08:04:08 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:05:34 -!- asksol [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:07:13 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:10:05 -!- KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-11-50.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:11:13 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 08:18:16 Chris [n=chris@unaffiliated/chris] has joined #lisp 08:19:07 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:20:46 [Blay] [n=blaay@89.143.182.78] has joined #lisp 08:20:51 saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:46 Blkt [n=wasdf@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-221.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 08:22:25 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:23:13 ygi [i=foobar@gateway.blegkilde.dk] has joined #lisp 08:24:12 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:23 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.150] has quit [Success] 08:25:23 recognizing that this is generally bad practice, how can I handle *all* errors, rather than just a particular one? 08:25:41 is there a definitive tutorial about the sbcl debugger ? 08:26:13 err, perhaps the cannonical treatise ? 08:26:32 Ralith: handler-case (or handler-bind) T? 08:26:32 Ralith: (handler-case (boom) (error (c) (format t "I has an error: ~A~%" c))) 08:26:57 hefner: that will catch only conditions that are subtype error (: 08:27:02 hefner: ah, that makes sense. I was trying to do that but got confused wrt. naming. 08:27:22 antifuchs: pretty sure that's the kind I was going for. 08:27:29 I'd rather not catch warnings, for example. 08:27:31 antifuchs: surely that includes all.. errors? 08:27:40 Ralith: see http://random-state.net/log/3453016738.html for a very sane condition handling guide 08:27:48 *hefner* forgets the precise rules. condition system was never his strongest point. 08:27:53 thanks, checking it out 08:28:17 all errors about which their author has cared enough to put them in the right condition type hierarchy (: 08:28:25 :P 08:29:04 this is worse in ruby than it is in lisp, but there's still a potential for confusing behavior if you don't keep a few rules in mind (and nikodemus lists them) (: 08:30:26 it's annoying because you can end up trapping program errors like no-such-method or whatnot 08:30:44 antifuchs: that didn't really tell me how to handle anything more, or even advise me to. 08:30:57 ilitirit: well that's actually what I want to do here. 08:31:09 it's nice to wrap around a command loop (like, say, my mp3 player), where the alternative is blowing up in the user's face 08:31:12 well, it doesn't give explicit examples 08:31:40 hefner: 'error' works nicely, thanks :D 08:32:23 is there any way to extract the human-readable info that slime usually gives (the string argument to error, I think) from it? Not too important, but it'd be nice. 08:33:02 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:35:12 if a person is an expert in debugging lisp code, what does that say about his lisp coding ability ? 08:35:45 that he's ready to try mcclim 08:39:04 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:40:52 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:41:21 heh 08:41:31 It means he prefers bubble sort to quick sort because it reminds him of bubbles 08:41:53 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:42:42 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-37-230.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:43:09 pretty bubbles in my wine 08:43:55 seltsam [i=5c4e8d56@gateway/web/freenode/x-8629d946e3618255] has joined #lisp 08:44:13 yah know about qsort, the most concise code is not the most efficient 08:44:37 -!- seltsam [i=5c4e8d56@gateway/web/freenode/x-8629d946e3618255] has left #lisp 08:44:45 seltsam [i=5c4e8d56@gateway/web/freenode/x-8629d946e3618255] has joined #lisp 08:49:57 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 08:53:37 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:56:50 Qsource [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:53 Ralith: if you don't want to *handle* the errors, but ignore it (in your command loop) then you can use IGNORE-ERRORS. 08:58:23 matimago: good to know, but I do want to provide minimal handling. 08:58:39 minion: any idea how to extract some more detailed infromation out of an error, by the way? 08:58:40 you speak nonsense 08:58:43 er 08:58:44 matimago: ^ 09:01:10 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:01:12 -!- ygi [i=foobar@gateway.blegkilde.dk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:04:25 Conditions are organized as a hierarchy of classes. ERROR has no slot. You have to deal with subclasses if you want to find details. 09:04:57 how about using trivial-backtrace 09:04:59 For example, type-error has type-error-datum and type-error-expected-type. 09:05:09 hm, so no way around. 09:05:28 I have to specialcase on every error type? 09:05:30 that kinda sucks. 09:05:32 Ralith, you can print them and they generally give a nice representation 09:05:39 ilitirit: oh? 09:05:40 how? 09:06:01 Ralith: or you may use MOP to find whether your error object has slots... But then how will you infer what they means? Have you already developed an AI? 09:06:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:06:10 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-2-217.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:06:33 Ralith: notice however that errors know how to do one thing: how to princ themselves as a nice error message. 09:07:13 matimago: that's kind of what I was asking for. 09:07:49 iliitirit pasted "errors print nicely" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82324 09:07:49 thanks. 09:08:07 ~a works too? neat! 09:08:28 seriously keep the backtraces though, see trivial-backtrace 09:08:36 ~A calls princ. 09:08:38 ilitirit: that's overkill for this case. 09:08:59 or more, just plain too much information for the medium. 09:09:20 matimago: cool, good to know 09:14:43 plage [n=user@118.68.32.7] has joined #lisp 09:14:47 Good afternoon 09:15:43 heya, plage. Afternoon? where are you at? 09:15:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-222-78.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:58 hello, plage 09:16:14 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:16:22 tic: Ho Chi Minh City 09:16:28 plage, oh, nice! 09:16:35 yeah 09:16:40 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:17:53 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 09:18:26 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.162.176.204] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:19:50 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:30 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:24:31 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-36ed70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["bbl"] 09:24:50 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:03 timchen1a [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 09:29:54 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:30:29 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-234.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:32:50 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:33:53 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:34:12 clemensm [i=506cd5dc@gateway/web/freenode/x-687e941e02003f04] has joined #lisp 09:34:37 -!- clemensm [i=506cd5dc@gateway/web/freenode/x-687e941e02003f04] has quit [Client Quit] 09:39:16 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 09:40:29 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 09:41:33 -!- timchen1a [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:51 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6DC57.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:22 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:48:16 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:48:23 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 09:53:48 In scbl, can or must other threads than the main thread receive signals? 09:53:55 s/scbl/sbcl/ 09:54:15 can, yes 09:54:39 must? must for what? I don't get the question. 09:55:06 If they expect some signals, I don't know, perhaps to manage threads or some other reason. 09:55:31 Ie. are signals used by sbcl, or are they left to the user code? 09:56:34 So I may mask signals for threads but the main thread and it should work ok. 09:56:36 sbcl uses signals quite heavily: stopping threads for gc, timers, interrupt-threa 09:56:51 you may not mask signals at all 09:56:58 mega1: your thread get interrupted there? 09:57:37 mega1: what happens with foreign threads? I'd want to load a C++ library using pthreads... 09:57:39 matimago: look at without-interrupts for a lisp level facility to prevent signals 09:58:04 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-5-135.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:59:24 since 1.0.28.somethign foreign threads (i.e. not created by make-thread) can mask whatever signals they want and the most of their signals are resignalled for the process so that hopefully a lisp thread will get it. 09:59:48 Great! Thanks. 10:00:05 If you block everything from the foreign thread that's the best. 10:00:13 Ok. 10:00:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:00:18 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 10:02:55 drewc: I'm browsing the cltl3 archives and I'm surprising to find that noone is proposing or insisting on the inclusion of SERIES. Is it not as important as I'm imagining it is? 10:03:11 sasurprisingasurpriseda 10:03:23 antoszka: series is already in cltl2. ;-) 10:04:22 Well, it's in the book, but it's not in the ANSI standard. 10:07:16 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 10:08:31 mae_tae [i=d20436b5@gateway/web/freenode/x-03ccabe198f83895] has joined #lisp 10:08:44 doesn't series shadow LET and, stuff? .. i do like language extension and stuff, but i'm not sure sure i like that approach 10:08:52 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:11 antoszka: that's ok; cltl3 has about as much chance of becoming an ANSI standard as I do of becoming Pope 10:09:57 Xof: I wish you all the best, then :) 10:10:21 lnostdal: I think it does optionally. 10:10:32 lnostdal: You can shadow or use series:let. 10:10:43 ok, antoszka 10:10:48 Xof: you have my vote for Pope. 10:11:36 helloooo people 10:12:31 is it possible to integrate prolog to Visual Basic? 10:12:53 mae_tae: maybe a more sensible question is 'why are you asking here?' 10:13:03 :) 10:13:26 Funny that the only pope named Christopher later became an antipope. 10:13:33 Xof for Antipope! 10:13:34 i must be missing the google keywords for this--how can i find the name of the enclosing (defun) in a macro? e.g. I want to write a (defmacro debuglog ...) which can output the equivalent of __FUNC__ in C 10:14:23 sykomp: if i answer that, do you know how to integrate that to Visual Basic? 10:14:27 ;) 10:14:42 mae_tae: prolog and VB are both offtopic here 10:14:53 i mean LISP to Visual Basic? 10:14:55 :) 10:14:57 ah 10:15:29 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.99.129] has joined #lisp 10:16:02 mae_tae: http://lemonodor.com/archives/000064.html 10:16:06 that seems to be relevant. 10:16:35 hehehe, would you answer that question? 10:16:45 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:46 mae_tae: would you read the link I sent you? 10:17:24 ok fine, i got it 10:17:28 :) 10:17:32 that bug is from 2002, and since then ACL has gone through a couple of release cycles 10:17:59 Qsource: at run-time I suppose you could BREAK and look at the backtrace. 10:18:00 I'm not sure if this particular bug was fixed, but in 7 years, they may have made /some/ progress towards fixing it 10:19:36 hey 10:19:39 I'm having a really weird issue 10:19:51 I have some code that uses load to bring in some files 10:19:59 Qsource, sb-c:*exenv* contains a lot of data you could extract 10:20:01 inside slime, it works great 10:20:01 Blkt_ [n=wasdf@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-217.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:20:10 luis: do you have a [reference to an] example for that? i don't need it to be at run-time per se. all i really want is a macro that can know the name of the enclousing function/defun/defmethod/whatever-idontcarehowaccurateitis 10:20:28 but when I run an image created by sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die, functions defined in the code that calls load are undefined 10:20:31 what's going on there? 10:21:08 lnostdal pasted "Qsource: sb-c:*lexenv* .. there might be better ways" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82325 10:21:19 anybody know why the function isn't visible? 10:21:31 Qsource: I don't, sorry, but lnostdal's suggestion is probably better. 10:21:35 Ralith: wrong package? 10:21:35 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.99.129] has quit [Client Quit] 10:21:40 sykopomp: huh? 10:22:03 Ralith: you're trying to call a function from an unimported package? 10:22:15 quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:22 sykopomp: uh, the function is defined in the same package that calls load 10:22:26 ah 10:22:32 sykopomp: and the file that is loaded starts with (in-package :packagename) 10:22:33 paste the code and error, I guess. 10:22:47 actually wait 10:22:48 sorry 10:22:50 my bad 10:22:53 ...ahah! 10:22:55 problem isolated 10:22:59 oh? 10:23:10 this wasn't the code that calls load, this was code that grabs other code from somewhere *else* 10:23:17 and *that* code doesn't have (in-package ...) 10:23:21 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 10:23:22 thanks for the tip. 10:23:59 np 10:24:17 I wonder why it didn't manifest in slime, though. 10:25:33 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:34 lnostdal: that is extremely helpful, thanks. now, am I missing the section in the SBCL manual where this is documented, or should i troll the source for the definition? :-) 10:26:52 Qsource, mh :) .. it's probably not documented as it is not part of any API "the user" is "meant to use" .. what is returned is a struct, however .. and based on the slot names you can figure out how to extract data from the struct 10:27:26 i can try to post something more useful .. but i'm not 100% sure this is the right approach tbh., Qsource 10:27:32 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.99.129] has joined #lisp 10:27:39 kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:38 lnostdal: it might be. IIRC __FUNC__ or __FUNCTION__ was standardized by C99, so I'm kinda surprised that there isn't a portable equivalent in common lisp 10:29:12 defun creates an implicit named block .. so maybe there is .. heh 10:29:18 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:02 hm. 10:30:27 lnostdal: you understand what i'm trying to do, right? (debuglog "myvalue ~W" x) -- and automatically print a function name or some other context so the output doesn't look completely random 10:30:35 is there a tidy way to stick a bit of code onto something taken from read before you eval it? 10:30:45 rgrau [n=user@161.116.222.132] has joined #lisp 10:31:03 or is eval only designed to take single expressions :/ 10:32:19 argh. 10:32:29 how do I run an eval inside a specific environment? 10:32:37 inside a specific package, that is 10:32:51 Ralith: You are confused. 10:33:22 plage: possibly. Care to elaborate? 10:34:22 Ralith: packages for symbols are resolved at read time. Changing the package before doing eval (but after read) is not going to change anything. 10:34:37 okay. 10:34:45 how do I execute read within a specific package? 10:34:55 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 10:34:59 (let ((*package* ...)) (read)) 10:35:18 -!- Blkt [n=wasdf@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-221.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:49 plage: er, in-package sets *package*, doesn't it? 10:36:03 Ralith: Yes, so? 10:36:13 the read is happening in a file that begins with the correct in-package. 10:37:00 Ralith: that in-package only determines the current package when the source code is read, not when the code is executed. 10:37:21 so *package* is set at read-time but not run-time? 10:37:34 that's... somewhat confusing. 10:38:14 Ralith: As a first approximatin, think of packages as being totally gone whenever your code executes. 10:38:28 -!- quek [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 10:38:33 will find-package still work? 10:38:42 lnostdal annotated #82325 "quick hack / test ..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82325#1 10:38:42 Sure 10:38:46 good 10:39:04 i don't know what'll happen when things are nested .. can try :) 10:39:37 plage: works now! thanks :D 10:39:41 both for the fix and for the explanation 10:40:03 Ralith: No problem. 10:40:25 Qsource, that was for you btw. (annotation #1 at the paste) 10:42:08 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-15-248.vodafone-net.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:23 -!- seltsam [i=5c4e8d56@gateway/web/freenode/x-8629d946e3618255] has left #lisp 10:43:22 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:57 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:44:18 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:22 (princ ',(caar (last (sb-c::lexenv-blocks lexenv)))) might work better in cases like (defun test (x) (block fail (debug-log "X is ~A~%" x))) or so 10:45:07 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:46:03 nah, it'll still fail in some cases :/ .. i dunno 10:50:30 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 10:51:11 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.32.7] has left #lisp 10:53:58 lnostdal annotated #82325 "perhaps sb-c::lexenv-lambda is better?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82325#2 10:58:01 -!- mae_tae [i=d20436b5@gateway/web/freenode/x-03ccabe198f83895] has quit ["Page closed"] 10:58:56 ((lambda (x) (debug-log "X is ~A~%" x)) 42) => .ANONYMOUS. - X is 42 10:58:58 heh :) 10:59:09 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:03:17 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:03:39 cracki [n=cracki@44-252.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:05:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:12 are executable dumps meant to be portable from machine to machine? 11:08:16 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:08:36 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:09:43 i dump and rsync cores between "almost" similar machines, Ralith .. it's probably one of those things you shouldn't do 11:10:01 seems to work nicely here on relatively different machines, actually. 11:10:12 lnostdal: these are *executable* dumps; they include the complete runtime. 11:10:28 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 11:10:45 yeah 11:12:30 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:15:26 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:15:46 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:16:16 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:49 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 11:17:08 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:21:10 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:22:45 -!- Blkt_ is now known as Blkt 11:22:54 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:23:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/82325#4 .. wonder if there is a portable library for doing stuff like this 11:27:08 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:27:38 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:41 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:44 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-252.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:28:34 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:05 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:11 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:29 -!- aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:36:07 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:36:56 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 11:37:02 mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 11:40:36 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:40:40 roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-15-40.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:15 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:42:20 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 11:45:02 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:13 aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:46 DeusExPikachu: clisp does that 11:53:55 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 11:53:59 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:52 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:59:57 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:00:53 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 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12:37:31 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A062A.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1"] 12:39:51 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 12:40:29 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-24-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:32 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 12:41:36 -!- z4v [n=tmh@18987146231.nit.megazon.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:56 acieroid [n=quentin@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:15 -!- bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:44:17 -!- ruepel0r is now known as schaeuble 12:46:01 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC7CB.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:47:33 -!- schaeuble [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:47:37 hmm, how can I recompile all the asdf package installed on my sbcl ? 12:47:44 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:01 remove all fasls 12:48:32 ok 12:49:16 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:13 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:54:54 is there someone using montezuma here ? 12:55:15 hmm, and to recompile all the .lisp files stassats` ? 12:55:27 cracki [n=cracki@44-252.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:55:45 acieroid: also, (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'foo :force t) will recompile some system foo and all of its dependencies. 12:56:20 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:57:16 idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:59:01 (mapc (lambda (system) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op system)) (mapcar 'pathname-name (directory "/systems/*.asd"))) 12:59:20 Meh. I want to hack. 13:01:04 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:01:41 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:31 tic: Tell you what, you'll take over my work on this enterprisey java + oracle system that needs an ovehaul, and I'll take the day off. Now you can hack, happy? :) 13:03:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 13:04:35 Hi, if I want to make available the binary (Linux X86) version of a CL application which uses McCLIM, do I have to make a binary file for every possible glibc version or is there a simpler solution? 13:06:12 simpler solution is to make for one version of glibc 13:08:20 mm, what's the difference between symbol-function and fdefinition? 13:08:30 I read the hyperspec over thrice, and can't find a difference.. 13:08:34 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-50-44.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:09:20 sytse: fdefinition works on local functions iirc. 13:09:29 qebab, BZZT. Wrong answer. :-) 13:09:30 would symbol-function work on (symbol-function '(setf foo)) 13:09:34 ok, sorry, no. 13:09:49 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:57 Xach: no it doesn't 13:09:59 function-name---a function name. In the non-setf case, the name must be fbound in the global environment. 13:10:03 (fdefinition) 13:10:06 sytse: sorry, quite right. 13:10:12 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:29 the only difference I can find, is that fdefinition also accepts strings 13:10:36 and symbol-function doesn't 13:11:10 so I would venture to guess that fdefinition is a tiny function that calls symbol-function and optionally converts the input to a symbol.. which makes it rather pointless 13:12:04 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:12:14 could u guys help a Lisp noob like me understanding some stuff about namespaces? 13:13:09 oh, fdefinition takes care of encapsulations when I look at the source code in sbcl, that's the only difference.. I have no idea what encapsulations are though 13:13:12 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:31 Blkt: ask, friend! 13:13:39 hello 13:13:46 well, the question is rather simple 13:13:56 trying to encode lambda calculus mu operator 13:14:00 sytse: well, notes at the end of s-f entry says "(symbol-function symbol) == (fdefinition symbol) However, fdefinition accepts arguments other than just symbols." 13:14:21 sytse: it doesn't take strings. 13:15:14 Blkt pasted "mu" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82335 13:15:26 Hi Xach; thanks for your Erik blogentry 13:15:33 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:50 that code does not work on Lisp 13:16:02 fe[nl]ix told me it's because a funcall missing 13:16:05 No problem. I would like to do more digging sometime soon, but there hasn't been a lot of time. 13:16:06 because of namespaces 13:16:18 Blkt: he's right 13:16:22 I have been reading, and thinking how much time has gone by 13:16:32 (funcall x n) 13:16:38 mikezor [n=mikael@c-36ed70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:16:42 but it does not work either 13:16:45 I mean 13:16:56 I'm sure he's right, but that's not the only problem that declaration has 13:17:01 parenthesis are wrong too 13:17:04 Xof: getting old? :) 13:17:07 roidrage_ [n=roidrage@p54BEB806.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:09 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-50-44.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:17:26 dlowe: nearly the channel average age! 13:17:45 stassats` what's wrong with parenthesis? 13:17:53 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:18:10 they are in the wrong places 13:18:45 could u paste me a corrected version of it? 13:18:58 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:06 yes, wait a second 13:19:09 kk 13:19:16 stassats`, Xach: btw, at least in sbcl, symbol-function accepts exactly the same input as fdefinition, the only difference comes *after* finding the function 13:19:54 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-15-40.vodafone-net.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:08 stassats` annotated #82335 "corrected" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82335#1 13:20:41 sytse: again, does symbol-function accept '(setf foo) ? 13:20:45 yes 13:21:00 how come it doesn't do this for me? 13:21:05 hmm 13:21:12 schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:21:13 and fdefinition does it? 13:21:20 yep 13:21:39 stassats`, Xach: anyway, fdefinition always finds the definition, and that symbol-function may return encapsulations -pointing- to the definition (which I *think* might be created by defun'ing a new symbol to a existing function?) 13:21:49 stassats` lol, now I see it, I was looking another definition I had here, thanks for the correction though 13:22:55 I guess '(setf foo) creates an 'encapsulation' then?? not getting it I guess 13:23:10 what's encapsulation? 13:26:40 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p31046-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:28:37 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-50-44.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:28:53 stassats`: sytse: SYMBOL-FUNCTION only takes a symbol, not a function designator. FDEFINITION takes a function designator. 13:29:09 (setf foo) is not a symbol, it's a function designator. 13:30:30 timor [n=martin@w4349.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:38 yes, indeed 13:30:51 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:17 so http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_dae.htm was what I was looking for, thx 13:31:56 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:00 well, glossary entry for "function name" linked from fdefinition would be simpler 13:33:02 I looked there, and it didn't tell me what a designator was, exactly 13:33:24 and the glossary entry for function designator doesn't, either 13:33:40 and '(setf foo) is an extended function designator 13:34:19 fdefinition doesn't accept a function designator 13:35:01 uh, it does, symbol-function doesn't 13:35:14 wedgeV_ [n=wedge@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 13:35:22 -!- wedgeV_ [n=wedge@85.31.0.85] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:53 no, it doesn't. symbol-function accepts a function, and fdefinition accepts a function-name 13:37:07 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:37:22 stassats`: symbol-function accepts a symbol :) 13:37:24 pff, "symbol-function accepts a symbol" 13:37:30 damn 13:39:44 Hello 13:40:20 so, results of (trace foo) (symbol-function 'foo) and (fdefinition 'foo) are different, see KLUDGE above fdefinition 13:40:31 wbraun [n=wolfgang@vpn0578.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 13:45:03 bob_f [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 13:46:00 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:47:30 is there a logging library that supports log rotate ? 13:48:27 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:40 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 13:50:06 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:53:30 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:54:58 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:55:21 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:59 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 14:01:27 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:01:51 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 14:02:03 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@130.226.210.2] has quit ["leaving"] 14:03:45 plage [n=user@118.68.32.7] has joined #lisp 14:03:51 Good evening! 14:05:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:06:02 danlei [n=user@pD9E2F126.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:56 -!- wbraun [n=wolfgang@vpn0578.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:08:38 stassats`: right, it's not function designator, it's function name. Sorry for the confusion. 14:09:02 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:09:04 kiuma: syslog(3) can easily be called with CFFI... 14:09:27 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:39 matimago, ok thank you 14:09:59 matimago: or extended function designator, which includes function names 14:10:53 nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 G'morning all. 14:11:53 hello nyef 14:12:25 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:12:50 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:13:25 matimago, I'll take the occasion to learn CFFI :) 14:17:18 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D784.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:39 -!- timor [n=martin@w4349.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:46 ... I could have sworn I set up a VM for one of the cheneygc platforms... Where's the drive image gone, and how do I get the emulator running? 14:20:44 Hmm, can an "other pointer" point to instances, lists or funtions? 14:20:46 cheneygc is on what platforms? 14:20:59 stassats`: non-x86 14:22:04 luis: not a list, or function. See compiler/generic/objdef.lisp 14:22:06 It can't point to lists, as both CONS and NIL have their own lowtag. 14:22:30 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-50-44.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:22:56 but instances yes? 14:24:18 There's an instance-pointer-lowtag, so probably not. 14:24:35 What exactly is an "instance" in this context btw? 14:24:44 something with slots that isn't funcallable 14:25:20 Ah, I see. Various objects have an other-pointer lowtag with various widetags. 14:25:40 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-252.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:47 -!- idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:28:21 merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:59 The transother GC array also suggests an other-pointer won't point to lists, functions or instances. 14:31:31 -!- ausente is now known as I_Like_Turtles 14:31:52 an other-pointer will only point to widetaggy things (and not all of those) 14:32:01 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 14:32:18 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:35:02 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:36:34 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-142-233.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:37:56 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:38:51 mewrei [n=mewrei@164.58.104.34] has joined #lisp 14:39:01 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:53 c|mell [n=cmell@p31046-ipngn101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:42:27 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:01 the lower bits in a widetag are always other-immediate-{0,1,2,3} right? 14:43:11 yes 14:43:26 oh, are you still working on your description of sbcl's memory handling? 14:44:33 I should pick that up again, but right now I'm just trying to understand why the GC likes to set FPs twice and stuff like that. 14:44:53 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:59 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:22 e.g. trans_list sets a FP and scav_list_pointer does it again after that. 14:45:56 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:46:08 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 14:46:27 luis: that's needed for cheneygc; all we have access to to identify the object is the widetag (or lack thereof for conses) 14:46:32 Hrm. I think I know how to get that "attempted to scavenge non-descriptor value" message in scavenge() (gc-common.c, line 193). 14:46:49 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:01 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:47:10 re the widetagging scheme, not forwarding pointers. 14:47:28 pkhuong: ah, you scared me for a second there. 14:47:36 laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.4.25] has joined #lisp 14:47:54 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.5.19] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:48:21 In fact, I suspect that I could set up a trivially-repeatable test for it if I had a cheneygc platform. 14:48:28 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:35 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 14:48:43 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:50:08 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:50:15 Greetings. 14:50:25 nyef: the recommendation is to gcc compile farm, still 14:50:35 Shouldn't be too hard to set the GC up to screw over alien code, either... 14:51:15 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:41 -!- roidrage_ [n=roidrage@p54BEB806.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 14:52:10 pkhuong: but, I don't think I understood what you said or at least how that applies to cheneygc but not gencgc. 14:52:19 *tmh* shudders, a large DEFUN form compiled with no errors, warnings or notes, the first time. 14:52:43 luis: that applies to both; gencgc is still based on cheney. 14:55:23 pkhuong: oh ok, I see what you mean then. 14:55:24 tmh: (eval `(compile (defun f () ,@(make-list 10000000)))) ; Yay! 14:55:53 luis: I don't think the double forwarding-pointering is needed. Might just have been overlooked since trans_list does a lot more than typical transportation functions. 14:56:27 pkhuong: same thing with trans_code. 14:58:13 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 14:58:56 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-50-44.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:59:47 tmh: don't worry, it will have logical errors 15:01:14 stassats`: That's why I shudder. 15:02:35 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 15:03:05 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 15:03:28 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 15:04:23 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:44 -!- ASau [n=user@host201-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off!"] 15:06:29 -!- mewrei [n=mewrei@164.58.104.34] has left #lisp 15:07:55 i seem to have a copy of all the ILC2002 videos on a little-used server 15:09:46 *Xach* starts watching one 15:10:36 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 15:11:03 Peter Norvig was there, interesting. 15:11:03 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:11:05 So, ICFP contest this weekend? 15:11:46 *Xach* sees Brian_Rice.wmv 15:12:44 aha, and Robert_Strandh.wmv also 15:13:05 Xach: Clearly, this can be packaged into a massive torrent. :) 15:15:33 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 15:15:57 antifuchs: do you have a tracker handy? 15:16:25 hmm, the audio quality is not great 15:17:46 You could use legaltorrents.com or something like that, perhaps? 15:18:16 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:46 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-148-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:18:47 *Xach* saves them for a rainy day 15:20:39 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:22 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:21:45 hmm, trying to use clbuild for mcclim. 15:21:59 I'm getting unhandled condition in --disable-debugger mode, quitting 15:21:59 anyone know why? 15:22:07 wbraun [n=wolfgang@vpn2773.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 15:22:32 merimus: there might be a problem a lot earlier in the process 15:22:54 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:11 looking... (build is very noisy) 15:24:05 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 15:24:08 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:24:08 tmh, how's that function holding up? 15:25:08 unhandled SIMPLE-ERROR in thread #: 15:25:08 Error during processing of --eval option "(load \"/home/wroth/lisp/sbcl/clbuild/clbuild.lisp\")": 15:25:08 component :RETROSPECTIFF not found, required by 15:25:08 # 15:25:21 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 15:25:32 -!- maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:36 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 15:26:19 hm, have the mcclim dependencies changed? I do vaguely remember plage merging something 15:26:28 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:26:31 joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:26:43 maxote [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 15:26:51 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:27:20 Adlai: We'll see. I don't get to test it until I've completed several other modifications to the overall program. Then, I'll get to play wack-a-mole. 15:27:39 bug hunt 15:29:40 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:46 Xof: tiff support was added 15:31:52 yeah 15:32:15 slyrus: where is your actual retrospectiff git tree? Both of your links in your 31 Oct 2008 blog entry point to gitweb 15:33:03 Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 15:33:29 Don't gitwebs usually provide a clone URL? 15:34:28 error: Couldn't resolve host ' merimus: working on it 15:41:58 Xof: roger that 15:42:22 also appears that clbuild didn't grab cl-ppre 15:42:31 that could be due to an earlier failure however 15:42:44 ppcre? 15:43:00 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:00 mcclim doesn't depend on cl-ppcre 15:43:10 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 15:43:33 *shrug* I saw an error saying it couldn't open systems/cl-ppcre.asd 15:44:23 does erleuchtet.org belong to anyone here? 15:44:24 Xof: git://git.cyrusharmon.org/pub/git/retrospectiff.git 15:44:30 let me know if that doesn't work for some reason 15:44:31 thanks, I got there in the end 15:44:39 ah, ok. 15:44:52 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.11.213] has joined #lisp 15:45:02 the gitweb-on-top-of-hunchentoot seems to be more stable these days. (and there was much rejoicing) 15:46:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:52 does anyone here have a checkout of cl-cairo? Does it come with any contact information? 15:46:54 Xof: for my next couple-free-days-of-lisp-hacking-adventure I want to rip the clem stuff out of ch-image 15:47:25 that and fixing my 2-d molecule drawing bit... 15:47:31 and good morning folks 15:48:26 slyrus: Going to do 3-d any time soon? 15:48:49 -!- A_anekos is now known as anekos 15:49:17 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:50:24 nyef: no, i'm explicitly uninterested in 3-d for the moment. 3-d is ... easy in that you're generally drawing the molecule based on pre-determined geometry. For 2-d you have the rather poorly specified "what a chemist thinks the 2-d representation of the molecule should be" as your only guide to drawing the damn thing. 15:50:38 Ah. 15:50:41 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:52:01 can I use regexps in Lisp without special libraries? Or I have to use CL-PPCRE? 15:52:36 merimus: ok, I can't fix it properly, but you might be able to get away with simply altering your copy of clbuild.lisp to blacklist mcclim-tiff-bitmaps (like mcclim-jpeg-bitmaps in the same file) 15:53:07 alternatively, you could add a line "retrospectiff get_git git://git.cyrusharmon.org/pub/git/retrospectiff.git" 15:53:16 then ./clbuild update retrospectiff 15:53:43 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:54:15 Athas`` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 15:54:19 -!- Athas`` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:25 mrSpec: CLISP comes with a regex module, other lisps too. 15:54:46 I use SBCL 15:54:59 mrSpec: then use cl-ppcre. 15:55:17 ok 15:55:23 what's wong with cl-ppcre, anyway? :) 15:58:46 I will need only simply function, and I didnt want to install full cl-ppcre library on every PC I will run my program. 15:59:12 PCs on my University have clear SBCL. 15:59:30 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 15:59:44 -!- [Blay] [n=blaay@89.143.182.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:00:00 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:00:22 Xof: blacklisting mcclim-tiff-bitmaps seems to make mcclim happy 16:01:35 Xof: thank you 16:02:04 -!- I_Like_Turtles is now known as ausente 16:06:09 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:51 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-795abdccdf3ded3d] has joined #lisp 16:07:50 -!- Athas` [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:10:50 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@ti132110a340-3137.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:54 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:11:05 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 16:11:30 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:47 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 16:14:47 konr [n=konrad@201.82.132.33] has joined #lisp 16:15:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:20:20 z-axis [n=sergk@93.190.183.68] has joined #lisp 16:21:28 splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:21:31 morning 16:22:00 <_Pb> morning 16:22:06 <_Pb> you're on the west coast? 16:22:21 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip70-162-187-21.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:38 Of Lake Geneva, yes. 'morning' is my thing. Apparently trad on #dylan, too. 16:22:41 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-0032d1829e516adc] has joined #lisp 16:22:49 -!- asksol_ [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:23:06 <_Pb> ah, i see 16:23:22 (actually more rive gauche than west coast) 16:23:40 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 16:23:43 'morning 16:24:07 hi salex 16:24:26 *splittist* checks the planet for more salex wisdom... 16:24:31 heh 16:24:53 i've got a spatial partitioning post to add to that, but dont' know if it willhappen today 16:25:05 i hope i'm not being tedious about it 16:25:13 [Blay] [n=blaay@89.142.37.85] has joined #lisp 16:25:21 optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279555687.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:25:49 <_Pb> spatial partitioning? what kind of program are you writing? 16:25:53 salex: not at all 16:26:18 _Pb: it's not so much a program as a lecture i'm roughing out it long-winded blog posts 16:26:25 <_Pb> ah 16:26:40 <_Pb> i just asked because i used that to optimize a game i'm working on 16:26:47 oh, i see 16:26:49 <_Pb> what's your blog's url? 16:26:52 what's your probem exactly? 16:27:00 it's on PL 16:27:16 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:27:17 and: 16:27:17 <_Pb> oh, ok 16:27:26 salex: FWIW, I don't find them long-winded. 16:27:29 hang on, cut'n'paste fail 16:27:32 splittist: oh, good 16:27:42 i'm going to condense to a lecture eventually 16:28:02 there's one more about optimization 16:28:11 and then one or two about hte et itself 16:28:25 _Pb: http://skas-blog.blogspot.com 16:28:30 <_Pb> kk 16:28:32 the *set* itsefl 16:28:52 <_Pb> gonna look at it on PL as well 16:28:56 <_Pb> heh 16:29:07 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:29:10 _Pb: it's a bit ranty and unedited, but hopefully there's some interesting stuff buried in it 16:29:49 splittist: as discussed, the nature of the computation makes it hard to beat on that limited iteration, once you introduce overhead like partitioning 16:30:04 so i wasn't going to bother, but in the process of putting together a post, i thought of something 16:30:26 which does, in fact beat the fastest c code on my 8-ways even with low iteration count 16:30:42 (and beats it by an order of magnitude on high iteration counts, which was what I was actually after) 16:30:47 so i'll write that up. 16:32:41 heh 16:33:08 salex: fastest C from the benchmark? 16:33:39 yes 16:33:51 willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:34:00 although arguably it's not doing quite the same thing 16:34:24 my current posted lisp version will produce the identical output to the c version 16:34:49 at about 1.75 the time (down from 2.3ish of the benchmark's sbcl entry) 16:35:12 the partitioning code is maybe 25% faster than c version 16:35:23 but differs on 6 pixels out of 16000^2 16:35:33 for whatever that's worth 16:36:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:36:18 anyway, i'll write it up. the c version's approach is fairly hopeless for an accurate high res approximation, it will take days to complete 16:37:34 salex: really not convinced that incf/fixnum is atomic in SBCL. I'd use sb-ext:atomic-incf instead. 16:38:27 hmmm. perhaps i'm misremembering that. I'll double check it. 16:39:18 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:22 Python tends to generate MOV/ADD/MOV sequences instead. 16:39:41 anyway, this speed issue isn't so interesting, because even at high iterations the approximation is kind of crap 16:39:45 which i'll take up later 16:39:49 pkhuong: thx. i'll look. 16:40:23 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:40:30 elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:40:38 (and probably gives a free speed-up, even for the version that only works with double-floats directly) 16:40:54 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:05 pkhuong: yeah, i'd been meaning to try that 16:41:38 is it going into .30 ? 16:42:07 i haven't had a chance to build a version with that patch and try it 16:42:09 Once I have satisfying feedback on the complex-sy issues. 16:42:16 *salex* nods 16:42:31 well count me out on thinking about it for 2 weeks 16:42:52 i'm flying out for an interview next week, and not ready 16:42:55 pkhuong: does atomic-incf not work on special variables ? 16:43:30 fe[nl]ix: it probably only works on unboxed "places". Too easy to mess with the heap otherwise. 16:43:58 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-182-46.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:44:20 lol, it's in the docstring: PLACE must be an accessor form whose CAR is the name of a DEFSTRUCT accessor 16:44:20 whose declared type is (UNSIGNED-BYTE 32) on 32 bit platforms 16:44:28 a bit restrictive :D 16:45:06 pkhuong: thanks for pointing that out. in my case nothing terrible happens, as worse case a row computation is computed twice 16:45:18 right. 16:45:29 but it's a good point, and I should have double checked 16:47:19 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:48:21 Actually, even if it were "atomic", you'd need a LOCK prefix. 16:48:52 -!- dtulig [n=user@dyn-bway-129-215.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:37 The x86 memory model guarantees that the writes are atomic, so you wouldn't get a weird value, but there'd still be potential for some duplicate rows. 16:50:03 ah, good point. and we (still?) don't have that? 16:50:31 In a package, I've done some stuff and so would like to restore the package to its original status. Is there something like reloading a package? 16:50:48 i wonder how much of a hit there is for mutexing that. Shouldn't be bad, only once per row 16:50:57 atomic-incf generates a LOCK XADD correctly. 16:51:08 just sb-ext:atomic-incf. 16:51:23 ah, ok. just don't have a protable way 16:51:24 leo2007: delete-package and then reload it 16:51:46 IRL, cache coherence probably makes the race condition pretty much impossible to trigger, even with multi-sockets. 16:51:50 delete-package wouldn't entirely clean-up your lisp image, but should be sufficient 16:51:53 pkhuong: right 16:52:01 stassats`: that was what I was doing, but seems to have problem, let me get some error message 16:52:08 rmorris [n=user@209.120.179.205] has joined #lisp 16:52:47 stassats`: do you use asdf to reload it or require? 16:53:04 mogunus1 [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:12 with require, I got this error The name "MONTE-CARLO" does not designate any package. 16:53:26 fe[nl]ix, sb-ext:compare-and-swap can handle more "places" .. it might not be as efficient as sb-ext:atomic-incf though(?) 16:53:58 lnostdal: indeed, it's not. CAS can fail. LOCK XADD never fails since it's easily serializable. 16:54:33 right 16:54:43 Raiford_ [n=rai@234.157-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:57 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:55:07 lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 16:56:13 am I the only one whom slime drives nuts by how slime-inspect guesses the form? 16:56:30 mega1: Nope. 16:56:53 There is no right place for the cursor to inspect (bar) in this: (foo (bar)) 16:57:09 it's either (foo (bar)) or bar 16:58:01 mega1: cursor on the opening paren around bar 16:58:03 leo2007: if that's asdf, you have to somehow tell asdf that the system isn't loaded 16:58:39 opening paren, never thought of that 16:59:56 I usually C-x C-e a form then change my mind and want to inspect it. 17:00:00 <_3b> leo2007: require won't try to reload a module it thinks it has already loaded (was module the term REQUIRE uses?) 17:00:21 pkhuong: hm, straight replacement of the incf with sb-ext:incf won't work either, as it expects a defstruct accessor of a certain type or something 17:00:27 anyway, i'll look it later 17:00:42 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:56 salex: right. Need a specialised unboxed place. It could probably be extended to arrays, though. 17:01:09 *salex* nods 17:01:16 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:21 leo2007: btw, if you can generate uniforms in (0, 2^53), it's slightly faster (than converting an integer value to float and then scaling) to convert that to U(0, 1) by setting that as the mantissa of a number in [1, 2), and then subtracting 1 from that. 17:01:25 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@ABordeaux-253-1-50-44.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:02:50 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-152-38.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:34 pkhuong: what is mantissa? 17:04:38 leo2007: Part of a floaty number. Isn't that covered by "What every computer scientist should know about floating point"? 17:04:45 pkhuong: fwiw, adding a mutex has essentially no cost to the case 17:04:47 The mantissa of a number in some base is the fractional part of that number's logarithm with respect to the base. It is also the logarithm of the fractional part of the significand of that number with respect to the base. 17:04:58 pkhuong: or could you provide a reference on this so that I study it a bit 17:05:18 minion: floating point? 17:05:18 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 17:05:19 Excuse me: it is also the logarithm of the significand of the number with respect to the base. 17:05:33 leo2007: nyef just did 17:05:52 And I know that the article was mentioned in here within the past couple days. 17:06:17 salex: I mean the way pkhuong suggested to improve the speed 17:06:32 ah, misunderstood 17:07:23 but what he is suggesting is very straightforward. You are just constructing floats based on your uniform distribution on integer, 'by hand' 17:07:24 53-bit mantissas in double-floats, isn't it? 17:07:29 yes 17:08:03 No, 53-bit significands. 17:08:23 stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:27 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:42 sigh. I should have read past "53-bit", there 17:09:29 some simple wrappers for retrying wrt. compare-and-swap; http://paste.lisp.org/display/82354 .. not 100% sure i got those correct, but it does seem to work doing some simple tests 17:09:36 How to tell asdf to reload a package? 17:09:51 but mantissa is used in that context still sometimes 17:10:36 leo2007: it's easier to just restart lisp 17:11:19 hmm 17:11:28 -!- Raiford [n=rai@234.157-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:49 salex: why 2^53 particularly 17:12:43 leo2007: Has to do with the machine representation of a double-float, as mentioned earlier. 17:12:46 what about (delete-package) then (require)? 17:13:12 stuart71: that doesn't take ASDF into account 17:13:15 DELETE-PACKAGE and REQUIRE are both irrelevant to ASDF... 17:13:16 leo2007: because that's the number of bits in a 64-bit double-float allocated to the significand. sounds like you should read that article anyway ! 17:13:26 Reload? (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op ), isn't it? 17:13:41 well, if it wasn't modified, it won't be reloaded 17:13:52 nyef: i added a new dependence and that was not loaded 17:13:53 Kill the fasls, and it'll be reloaded. 17:13:53 at least, in a IEEE-754 double precision float there are 53 bits in the significand including the "hidden bit" 17:14:05 -!- Orest is now known as Orest^bnc 17:14:15 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:24 nyef: it'd be easier just to restart lisp 17:14:32 Yeah, probably. 17:14:35 leo2007: (this is basically the number of significant digits you can represent) 17:14:36 -!- Orest^bnc is now known as Orest 17:14:41 Really not impressed with asdf some days. 17:15:04 erm, binarily, anyway 17:15:05 If you're doing that a lot (reloading a package, that is), can you tell asdf to not produce fasls? 17:15:17 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-167-133.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:31 stuart71: why are you reloading the whole package a lot, ooc? 17:15:32 stuart71: Not a bright idea, given file-compilation semantics. 17:15:34 load-source-op? 17:16:55 I'm not actually doing that, I was just wondering. 17:17:06 stassats`: somehow I have gone back to the package 17:17:24 I do just restart lisp when I need to. 17:17:41 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:18:32 Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 17:20:47 salex nyef and everybody, thank you for the notes. I would have read the float point if I have more time. I was scared off by the length. But I will come back to this after 1 July. 17:21:50 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:22:02 Mantissa is not evenr an English word 17:22:24 Mantissa is an English word; it is simply often misused. 17:23:11 it's not quite that simple Riastradh, as it started off in use as "significand", and later it moved 17:23:21 it is in OED but not in Cambridge dictionary 17:23:32 but it's quite true that using it this way is discouraged now, for good reason! 17:23:36 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 17:23:38 Well, no, it started off as the fractional part of a logarithm, and was later misused in the representation of floating-point numbers until someone coined the word `significand'. 17:24:14 er, wait, yeah, that way round 17:24:15 -!- stuart71 [n=user@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["dog is on fire"] 17:24:25 point being that it had a history of usage this way 17:24:29 however confusing that can be 17:25:01 but you'll still run into it 17:25:01 *splittist* vows to use mantissa in the original Etruscan-derived sense some time this week 17:25:21 *salex* vows to get some work done 17:25:25 see you all a bit later 17:25:27 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has left #lisp 17:25:32 -!- z-axis [n=sergk@93.190.183.68] has quit ["bye"] 17:26:10 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 17:27:36 KingNatoG5 [n=patrik@84-217-10-107.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:57 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:28:03 Is there a special way to use a OS X framework when setting up cffi (or any ffi really)? 17:30:35 smithzv: cffi:*DARWIN-FRAMEWORK-DIRECTORIES* 17:30:59 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:31:56 fe[nl]ix: thanks, I'll check that out 17:33:56 smithzv: as far as I understand, you could simply link the framework into ~/Library/Frameworks/ 17:42:47 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:59 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@proxy.emea.fedex.com] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:43:59 -!- KingNatoG5_ [n=patrik@84-217-11-154.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:02 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-51-20.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:15 smithzv: (cffi:load-foreign-library '(:framework "OpenGL")) is how you'd load the OpenGL framework. 17:44:54 luis: yeah, playing with that. I have been doing it perhaps the wrong way for a while now, hope this is easier 17:45:28 I have been keeping macports and fink versions of libraries for most purposes. 17:46:09 how efficiently does ECL compile? 17:46:58 define efficiency in this case. :) 17:47:06 space efficiency? 17:47:34 a friend of mine who specializes in embedded systems is curious if Lisp can be compiled to run on an embedded system with a very small amount of memory. 17:47:54 how small ? 17:48:09 48k EEPROM and 4k RAM is one system he worked on 17:48:39 hahaha 17:49:14 lol yes? 17:49:17 that's more like Forth territory 17:49:35 yep. i've seen some embedded scheme interpreters that can run this low 17:49:36 I doubt you can get any current CL implementation under 2 mbytes 17:49:42 but full CL? no chance 17:53:40 If you're embedded in an STB (or a hairdryer) there doesn't seem much need for a repl, pathnames, the full numeric multi-tower etc. I bet it'd be more fun to write in a 48/4-dsl written in CL than the local C, though. 17:53:40 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-148-43.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:54:29 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:54:52 Let's see... If you're in an STB, you definately want at least some numerics, because you're going to be doing digital video decoding, and that at least requires floaty numbers if not complicated numbers. 17:55:20 The REPL is useful for debugging and configuration. 17:55:30 ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:55:52 klapaucjusz [n=jch@lanthane.pps.jussieu.fr] has joined #lisp 17:55:53 You'll typically have a filesystem to hold various data things, such as your TV schedule or something. 17:56:06 nyef: yes - the moment I hit I realised STB was exactly the wrong example (: 17:56:13 Fair enough. 17:56:46 Now, an automotive engine computer, -that- seems like a good place to not have a REPL. 17:56:56 nyef: why not? 17:57:24 try jit-typing stuff to control the engine ;) 17:58:02 Just think of continuable restarts for the brakes ... 17:58:12 nyef: F1 used to have engine REPLs ... sort of. 17:58:49 Well, there was a Lisp system on some of NASA's stuff 17:59:14 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-152-38.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:43 Houston, we have a problem. Actually, I'll just M-. and C-c C-c. OK - we're good to go... 17:59:58 hahaha 18:00:06 <[df]> as I recall, they used the repl to fix something in orbit 18:00:09 <[df]> or possibly on the moon 18:01:20 http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html 18:01:41 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:55 wasn't programs on Pioneer changeable too? 18:04:42 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:31 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:41 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:21 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:15 JHVH [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:14:49 It might be interesting to have a cliki page collecting various implementations of reader-macros using this scheme: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/ac0744b9ff70ee62 18:15:50 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.88] has joined #lisp 18:16:06 [df]: it was IIRC Pioneer. They debugged it with remote REPL ;-) 18:16:13 somewhere beyond Mars orbit :P 18:16:29 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [] 18:17:21 Wonder what the pings were :) 18:17:38 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #lisp 18:18:57 antoszka: IIRC probably similar to the ones I had on GPRS ;-) 18:19:17 Prob'ly :) 18:19:33 Adlai: "lisp", sure. R5RSish has been done. CL would probably be much harder. 18:20:54 pkhuong: JPL afaik used Lisp programs that generated code for microcontrollers on board, plus there was some custom lisp that was used in Pioneer 18:21:06 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Client Quit] 18:21:37 p_l: pioneer? wasn't something like i8008 or i4004 used in there? 18:23:47 <[df]> what sort of hardware did the earliest cl implementations run on? 18:24:42 [df], do you mean compliant CL, or the pre-CL Lisps that CL was based on? 18:25:08 because I think CL was quite influenced by ZetaLisp, which IIRC was from Lisp Machines 18:25:23 <[df]> well, if pre-CL, then at least with a similar feature set 18:25:38 <[df]> I'm trying to ascertain what the minimum realistic hardware requirements for cl are 18:25:39 history of lisp paper may be help 18:25:52 [df]: http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 18:26:25 err, right, history of programming languages 18:26:33 *[df]* reads 18:27:30 what sort of bug (entirely my fault, surely) could trigger this gc_assert? "trying to write-protect gen. 5 when gen. 2 nonempty" 18:28:37 hm 18:28:43 *Adlai* also reads 18:28:43 when did Norvig start working at Google, anyway? 18:28:51 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:29:43 *Adlai* will probably spend the next week reading this 100-page PDF... 18:30:09 -!- CrazyEddy [n=petiolar@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:30:46 *merimus* damnit... so will I :) 18:31:33 It's the second part of a two-article series. The first part is the paper's reference [McCarthy 1981]. 18:31:46 ...which I happen to find somewhat less interesting, but a good read to. 18:31:50 s/to/too/ 18:31:55 benny [n=benny@i577A219E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:28 there is also a video of gls and rpg presenting it 18:32:41 stassats`: link? 18:32:43 not fully 18:32:57 I wonder how many X00-page biographies of people with far less influence than LISP are set texts around the world 18:33:18 edbian [n=ed@75.150.213.137] has joined #lisp 18:33:36 How do I take a text file and run it in clisp? (I'm using ubuntu 9.04) 18:33:48 klapaucjusz: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Lisp-Guy-Steele-Richard-Gabriel 18:33:59 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.244.168] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:17 edbian: (load "/path/to/file.lisp") ? 18:34:35 assuming you have a top-level function call in the file :) 18:34:41 sykopomp: Does the file need a she-bang ? 18:34:49 #!/usr/bin/clisp ?? 18:34:56 there is also a funny video of gls and rpg about evolution of programming languages in general 18:35:04 stassats`: ta. 18:35:07 50in50? 18:35:08 edbian, are you trying to run it as a script, or load it from an already-running Lisp program? 18:35:23 I am trying to write a LISP program 18:35:30 using nothing but gedit and a terminal 18:35:40 is this a challenge of some sort? 18:35:54 luis: failing to promote an object even if you don't move it around, I guess/ 18:35:56 stassats`: the audio version is on high-rotate on my iPod 18:36:03 anyways 18:36:10 edbian: clisp does the trick 18:36:15 even without the shebang. 18:36:20 sykopomp: :) Thank you! 18:36:31 here it is http://blog.jaoo.dk/2008/11/21/art-and-code-obscure-or-beautiful-code/ 18:36:39 how to reuse an object that is beyond * ** *** in slime 18:36:52 leo2007: presentations, or don't do that. 18:37:21 edbian: for the record, you're missing out on one of the best parts of coding lisp if you're just gonna treat it like a script :) 18:37:29 if you have presentations loaded, then middle mouse button will insert it in the repl 18:37:41 sykopomp: THe interactive part? 18:38:12 edbian, yes. 18:38:19 :D I have another tab open ;) 18:38:29 another tab of what? 18:38:31 anyone have an audio link to those presentations? 18:38:50 I have presentations. But I cannot assign it to a variable 18:39:04 sorry I can 18:39:07 by using * 18:39:22 edbian: yes 18:39:45 leo2007: you should be able to do so without * too 18:40:28 dtulig [n=user@dyn-bway-129-215.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:40:39 though, it seems to work only with self-evaluating objects 18:41:08 merimus: http://www.oopsla.org/oopsla2007/podcasts/invited-talks/keynote0104-50-in-50.mp3 for one 18:41:11 I have the presentation copied to repl, what to do next? 18:41:16 press enter 18:41:22 then you can access it with * 18:41:26 splittist: thank you 18:41:52 when I press enter a different thing returned 18:41:54 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has left #lisp 18:42:10 leo2007: is it a list? 18:42:14 Bare with me for a moment. What is a top level function? 18:42:21 rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.41.47] has joined #lisp 18:42:28 Do you mean a main function? 18:42:49 see this: http://imagebin.org/53445 18:42:50 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:54 stassats`: a matrix 18:43:01 edbian, anything defined with DEFUN 18:43:27 2nd (admittedly inane) question. How do I print to the terminal? printf??? 18:43:35 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:43:39 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:43:47 minion: pcl 18:43:48 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:43:48 just print? 18:43:50 edbian, you print to whatever stream *standard-output* is bound to 18:44:01 yes, just use print 18:44:09 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.205.13] has joined #lisp 18:44:13 or (format t ...) 18:44:27 print should suffice for most stuff though 18:44:39 and read PCL 18:44:42 :) 18:44:47 leo2007: then you already modified that object 18:44:49 edbian: this is a bit like asking what column comments have to be in in C 18:44:55 sorry :( 18:45:08 edbian, don't be sorry, just RTFPCL 18:45:23 stassats`: i see. so i guess I have to recreate the matrix 18:45:23 trust me it's quite accessible and a fun read 18:45:42 leo2007: right 18:45:46 Where is the "f-ing PCL" ? 18:46:03 minion: please tell edbian about PCL 18:46:04 edbian: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:46:51 There used to be a PDF version freely available as well. 18:46:55 edbian:  18:47:27 antoszka: How do you print an arrow like that? 18:47:38 unicode 18:47:53 printing unicode depends on your system... 18:48:09 edbian: altgr-u 18:48:31 correction, altgr-U 18:48:49 altgr-u   :) 18:49:23 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:49:39 Is there a way to take a text file of function and load them into my interpreter? Sort of like typing in all of those function definitions by hand in a interactive console? 18:49:54 Sorry for my basic questions :( 18:49:57 clhs load 18:49:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 18:51:22 what specbot said. 18:51:37 This seems to me like what you wanted in the first place. 18:51:47 It's useful for configuration files. 18:51:55 And it was the first answer given him 18:52:10 (true) 18:52:50 edbian, if you're making a large system and you want to split code up among multiple files, you should probably read up on the package system and ASDF. 18:53:08 No no 18:53:11 this is very small 18:53:20 there are quite a few packages to in slime's contrib dir, any interesting ones to recommend? 18:53:27 I am using '(slime-fancy slime-banner) already 18:53:46 leo2007, slime-fancy pulls in all the popular ones. 18:53:59 leo2007: slime-asdf may be useful 18:54:34 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:41 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:44 stassats`, is that the one that enables you to ,l a system? 18:55:52 yes 18:55:55 ah ok. 18:56:11 (I just loaded every package that seemed useful, and forgot about them...) 18:56:20 s/package/slime package/ 18:56:32 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@c-98-210-13-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:56:49 Adlai pasted "ALREF 2.1" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82364 18:57:20 Adlai annotated #82310 "ALREF 2.1" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82310#1 18:57:22 stassats`: I have added it. except the feature pointed out by Adlai, are there others? 18:57:33 Anyone familiar with cl-walker (or the arnese walker)? 18:58:47 -!- merimus [n=wroth@nat-49.laurelnetworks.com] has quit [] 18:59:05 leo2007: no, besides some other shortcuts for asdf operations 18:59:29 ,+p will change the package at the REPL 18:59:39 actually that's probably a default SLIME feature 19:00:01 Adlai: that is the default i think I usally use C-c M-p 19:00:26 *stassats`* uses ,i 19:00:57 ,i changes package, ,+p pushes a package. The difference is that you can "step back" later by ,-p 19:01:10 stassats`: that's going to be ambiguous, better change your habit 19:01:35 stassats`: there's a force-load, which can be used to reload a package, i guess 19:01:39 tcr: actually, i use in 19:02:00 leo2007, you can't load a package. force-load reloads all the components of an ASDF system. 19:02:06 leo2007: right, but recursively 19:02:46 stassats`: that was a mistake to do that :( 19:02:57 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:03:01 What would you recommend as a starting point for digging into slime features? (like this , stuff)? 19:03:05 stassats`: could still be in-package, or in-readtable :) 19:03:22 antoszka: Read through my slime slides from dec 2008 19:03:43 tcr: thx 19:03:51 antoszka: link? 19:04:02 antoszka: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf 19:04:30 Just started googling for that, but that's easier, thx. 19:04:47 « Code base sometimes feels like a gigantic, mutually shared º Ñ 19:04:53 .emacs » 19:04:55 ;-) 19:05:01 phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:26 stassats`: I think it might have something better than i4004 or i8008 - it had to do quite a lot of calculations regarding movement. I know that nowadays, they have PPC or LEON (SPARC cpu) for that 19:07:01 Can you guys recommend a good clisp IDE? 19:07:27 p_l: pioneer 10 was launched in 1972, so i don't think there was lisp 19:07:31 edbian: SLIME 19:07:40 p_l: do you know much about what sort of tech the x-prize-type folks are using? (Or the Chinese or Indians for that matter.) 19:08:02 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:44 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:50 I have slime installed. How do I run it? 19:09:07 M-x slime 19:09:28 M-x slime? 19:09:35 pilot1123 [i=pilot@149.156.124.23] has joined #lisp 19:09:40 in emacs, yes 19:09:41 Hello 19:09:42 edbian: from within emacs. emacs is a text editor. 19:09:45 oooo 19:09:47 in emacs 19:09:51 you guys and your assumptions 19:10:09 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:19 edbian: text is a visual representation of language. 19:10:37 edbian: for more on language see generally the later Wittgenstein 19:10:51 (but spelled correctly_ 19:11:01 ha ha 19:11:34 edbian, many of your questions would be answered in PCL. 19:11:51 I know that I'm a jerk to RTF*, but you really should... 19:11:59 I'm going through it slowly 19:12:01 I've just installed SBCL .29 but when I'm trying to run it, I cant see anything, and I have to kill process to exit. 19:12:02 ok 19:12:03 Thanks for your help 19:12:09 Do you know whats wrong with it? 19:12:19 edbian: http://www.dina.dk/~abraham/religion/trinity.txt 19:12:23 If you feel comfortable setting up slime and emacs yourself, then don't use Lispbox. 19:12:55 pilot1123: how did you install it? 19:12:55 if you're new to emacs, you might be better off putting your own emacs setup on hold for a moment and getting Lispbox from the site of PCL. 19:13:14 it's basically a pre-configured SLIME+EMACS+ASDF+Lisp 19:13:15 from binary file to local directory 19:13:36 Good luck, edbian... enjoy Lisp. 19:13:43 :) 19:14:08 I'm out. bbl. 19:14:43 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:14:46 legumbre_ [n=user@r190-135-74-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:14:58 pilot1123: how do you run it? 19:15:15 sbcl, I've added dir to $PATH 19:15:32 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-040-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:48 sbcl --help works 19:15:53 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:15:55 and what OS? 19:16:09 splittist: I know that some UAVs use PPC SoCs, there might be few ARMs as well, plus there is LEON, which is space-hardened SPARC, with plans available AFAIK free-of-charge 19:16:10 Debian 2.6.26 19:16:57 sorry 2.4.35 PLD 19:16:59 tcr: learnt a new key binding from your talk 19:17:05 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:38 splittist: but usually it's various SoCs + custom hardware, in case of military stuff maybe that weird US Army cpu, but I doubt it 19:18:00 US Army CPU? 19:18:08 leo2007: You're welcome 19:18:14 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-1-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:16 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:46 p_l: interesting. thanks. 19:19:04 does sbcl work well on 2.4 kernels? 19:19:04 nyef: look around in MIL-STD, there's an ISA description for "standard" cpu to be used in various military hw 19:19:08 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-36ed70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:19:39 Hunh. Is it anything well-known, or another odd ISA? 19:19:47 nyef: The main use of that standard was system bus, though. F-22 engineers kicked that standard out and put FireWire :P 19:19:55 Heh. 19:20:28 nyef: iirc it was because they couldn't be assed to lay so many wires for that old, parallel bus in aircraft so full of electronics :D 19:20:34 can you play mp3 on f-22? 19:21:23 stassats`: I'm sure there is a pocket for an ipod in the flight suite. :-) 19:21:29 it be nice to listen to some good music while going supersonic 19:21:32 nyef: that standard described some 16bit CISC 19:21:51 stassats`: there's no audio-player in standard 19:22:18 but I know that they sometimes put music into radio jammers. xD 19:22:21 stassats`: Like the ending theme for Sonic CD? 19:22:45 stassats`, it's not written anywhere that sbcl doesnt work with 2.4 19:23:24 isn't one of the benefits of firewire daisychaining? Plug your video-cam into your joystick! 19:23:34 stassats`: AFAIK, SBCL works fine on 2.4 so long as you aren't using threadiness. 19:23:41 tcr: p, pretty print the object at point ... 19:23:48 where to type p? 19:24:07 splittist: you can do more than daisychain :-) 19:24:08 tcr: sorry it is in the inspector i guess 19:24:13 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-17.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:23 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-17.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:24:25 nyef: but it's not tested as regularly, i guess 19:24:37 splittist: logically, it doesn't care, it's just standard practice to put two ports on firewire devices 19:24:41 I hope to test it for MIPS in a couple weeks. 19:24:57 *tcr* discovers that he finds code with anaphoric macros to be hard to read 19:24:57 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-36ed70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:28 I got a nice idea to improve fuzzy complete 19:25:49 -!- edbian [n=ed@75.150.213.137] has left #lisp 19:26:00 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:26:05 and a bug about it too 19:26:30 the bug is this 19:26:37 p_l: I have visions of plugging F22s wing-tip to wing-tip... 19:27:06 immediate right after completion, if you type C-x u, the point is at a different position than before completion 19:27:21 splittist: to make a cluster? 19:27:49 stassats`: they are networked anyway 19:27:50 or an end-level Boss (; 19:28:16 The IT guys at work are trying to get SBCL to run on some older SUSE 9.2 machines (to try to ensure that it runs on all the systems still in service). They get the following: sbcl: /lib64/tls/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found (required by sbcl) 19:28:20 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-92-36.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 19:28:20 Any hope? 19:28:49 ljosa: Do a build from source (cross-build if necessary)? 19:28:53 ljosa: tried recompiling SBCL? 19:29:06 and linking with old glibc 19:29:46 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:29:59 p_l: I think they tried. I can't build it myself because they have set a hard ulimit on 8 GB, and SBCL seems to expect more than that during the build. 19:31:09 ljosa: 64bit machine? 19:31:22 is it possible to make fuzzy auto-select the first entry? 19:32:09 this will cut its average number of key strokes in half 19:32:17 p_l: yes. looks like I found one without the ulimit on virtual memory, so I'll try to build it again myself. 19:32:30 leo2007: what do you press to select the first entry? 19:32:33 leo2007: just type further 19:32:38 ljosa: you can always use --dynamic-space-size 19:32:58 (def(... 19:33:10 leo2007: thingama ... 19:33:17 harr, he was faster... 19:33:46 p_l: ah, very helpful, thank you. that makes what they install work on all the cluster nodes (well, I'm not going to test it on all 1500...), which is all I really care about. 19:34:30 timor: See the first line in the fuzzy completion buffer 19:35:27 ljosa: simple script should be capable of testing it on all 1500 :) 19:35:32 ljosa: after all, it's a cluster! ;D 19:36:52 p_l: wonder how many jobs I would have to submit for the queuing system to send at least one job to each node, given that the cluster is in pretty heavy use by others? :p 19:37:00 timor: TAB 19:37:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 19:37:51 tcr: was it intended to be a link? 19:38:05 tcr: dont tell me :) 19:38:18 Oh sorry, I just discover that I thought it was a honest question by timor 19:38:32 stassats`: that's nice 19:42:00 ljosa: hah, I call that job "talk with queue admin ;D 19:42:53 p_l: I'll just complain later if it fails. it's a late-binding language, after all. 19:44:39 hahaha 19:46:57 it feels good to re-discover some features of slime 19:47:36 -!- dtulig [n=user@dyn-bway-129-215.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:49:02 restarts (invokable by number of by possibly-abbreviated name): 19:49:03 1: [RECOMPILE] Ask system administrator to recompile. 19:49:03 0: [ABORT] Exit debugger, returning to top level. 19:49:38 ejs [n=eugen@1-111-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:12 -!- anekos is now known as A_anekos 19:51:31 you forgot 3: [KILL-VENDOR] 19:51:32 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15081.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:05 I thought that was 3: [REDDIT] Switch to Ruby. 19:52:18 reddit switched to python :p 19:52:20 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 19:52:22 splittist: no, ruby has no place in HPC. 19:52:52 and from description that was a HPC cluster 19:53:09 lisp has? 19:53:44 dlowe, p_l: doh! 19:53:55 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@63-55.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["retires hurt"] 19:54:04 splittist: the thought was funny 19:55:20 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 19:57:23 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:22 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 20:01:51 stassats`: of course it has, especially compared to *Ruby* 20:02:39 not to mention that it has historical place there 20:02:45 itze [n=itze@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:53 CM? 20:03:02 stassats`: even earlier, Maclisp 20:03:50 maclisp generated faster numerical code than Fortran for PDP-10, back in 36bit era 20:04:01 I once foolishly made a 3d game engine in ruby, figuring I could do the heavy lifting with C extensions. The C part did lighting, polygon culling, back-to-front sorting of polygons, texture mapping, and updating position based on velocity. The ruby part incremented the velocity with the acceleration. 20:04:25 The ruby part was about 100x slower than the C part, and all it was doing was incrementing three floating point variables 20:04:33 (per object) 20:04:59 and that's pretty much when I gave up ruby, come to think of it. 20:05:08 p_l: well, fast numerical arithmetic isn't sufficient for HPC 20:05:55 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-168-238-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:07 stassats`: still, Ruby is *slow*. And I mean really slow 20:07:50 I can see CL easily in HPC environment, if Python manages to get one :D 20:07:53 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:52 jmbr [n=jmbr@142.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:08:57 dlowe: is that mud you were working on up and running? (I think you may have linked me to it?) 20:09:08 I finally got back around to actually working on mine >_> 20:09:26 sykopomp: I can bring it up. It's still C++ in production, though 20:09:49 ah 20:10:01 It'll probably be finished some time next year 20:10:10 and then I'll flip the switch. Muhaha. 20:10:16 :D 20:10:37 I've been reading a lot about DGD-based MUDs. I think that's what I'm going to aim at. 20:11:05 -!- ejs [n=eugen@1-111-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:12:13 sykopomp: spiffy 20:13:18 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@gm3b6-dd5.broad.mit.edu] has quit [] 20:14:01 -!- confounds [n=jackalop@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 20:14:56 DGD? 20:15:16 Dworkin's Game Driver - an LPC cousin 20:15:49 Myself, I think I prefer to have a game world as data rather than code. 20:16:16 dlowe, how would you do that? 20:16:26 dlowe, data tends to transform into code eventually. 20:16:41 tic: then you refactor it back out into data eventually :) 20:16:50 Dworkin... been long time since I had seen that name 20:17:00 dlowe, hehe. that's the lovely thing about data vs. code. It's a very fine balance, I've noticed. 20:17:30 tic: but letting builders code scripts is a double-edged sword. It's very hard to program in general case "physics" 20:17:55 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:03 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:18:15 dlowe, probably is. 20:18:15 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:18:39 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-163-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:56 tic: well, I'm neck deep in it now, so it's an anecdotal certainty 20:18:59 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:15 more fun for you! 20:21:03 For instance, a builder recently made an area that has ice you can slip on. That's cool and all, but I would have liked to have made "iciness" and perhaps "slipperiness" as general variables. And then maybe have the possibility of hot things removing iciness or something. 20:21:34 So if I add all that now, we'll have two kinds of "iciness," one which can be melted (because it's part of the general framework), and one that can't (because it was special-cased by the builder) 20:22:24 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:23:57 So if I wanted to, I have to factor in the cost of ripping out the builder's scripts. Even if I hadn't had scripting, though, it's unlikely the builder would have asked me to put ice in. My solution so far is to have a painfully limited scripting system. 20:24:59 I only ramble about this here because it's a problem of general import. 20:25:10 dlowe: And you have to consider the area that has ice you can -melt through-, dumping you into dangerously cold water. 20:25:13 especially when one is tempted to co-mingle data and code :D 20:25:23 Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-7.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:25:30 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-37-230.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:56 nyef: Sure. or maybe there's a way to freeze water that allows you to cross it 20:25:56 Hm. Yes, making things general vs making them specific. 20:26:18 Always tricky. You want something that allows for extensibility without making a mess of it all. 20:27:02 well, the extensions are going to be "fake" to a point, because they're not hooked into an actual variable which is interacting with the system as a whole. 20:28:10 ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-144-148.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 -!- rmorris [n=user@209.120.179.205] has left #lisp 20:29:32 If I had a bunch of coders, and they were employees I could command instead of volunteers, I could theoretically have them read all the builders' scripts and extract common patterns, turn them into world-wide physics 20:29:55 s/physics/systems/ 20:30:09 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.145.44] has joined #lisp 20:30:26 roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-12-152.vodafone-net.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:40 sounds like pretty boring work, though. 20:30:48 hm 20:31:13 tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 20:33:01 I think having iciness implemented in specific circumstances isn't such a problem, though. Specially not when dealing with an object system like DGD's, where refactoring is relatively straightforward (move it up to a Ur object, in Skotos terms) 20:33:59 I'm running into a separate set of issues, though, since I have the equivalent of generic functions (as opposed to having code inside the clones..) 20:35:10 dlowe: plus, I think it's very easy to mingle data and code when you're dealing with a prototype-based system. From my perspective, that's the biggest advantage -- that the distinction isn't quite there. 20:35:21 sykopomp: I believe you are being optimistic about the ease of refactoring. I've noticed this fragmentation before with lots of LPC muds. 20:36:10 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@93.144.41.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:36:16 I'm not saying that it doesn't have its perks :) There are plenty of successful systems out there using the prototype model. 20:36:35 dlowe: that's probably true. Then again, I think it's more an issue of keeping tabs on what your builders are doing, as opposed to an inherent problem with the system itself. 20:37:02 sykopomp: then you run into social issues with the volunteers :) actual people ruin everything 20:38:04 sykopomp: Oh, there's an inherent problem all right, just not a fatal one. It's good to think about what things a system makes difficult and which it makes easy 20:38:16 I'm not sure what the distinction here is between a dumb volunteer that writes dumb code in an LPC-like setting and a dumb volunteer that starts writing a bunch of specific classes to implement the same specific behavior. 20:38:31 *tmh* keeps trying to switch packages in slime using C-x C-b. 20:39:06 Some reason I'm getting switch buffer and switch package crossed. 20:39:18 if anything, it seems nice to be able to implement an ugly version without trying to make some global kluge -- implement what you need 20:39:40 sykopomp: The distinction is between a smart volunteer who wants ice in their zone and makes an ice simulation, and a smart volunteer who wants ice in their zone and asks the coder to implement ice. 20:40:04 sykopomp: no dumb people are required for this mess. 20:40:37 dlowe: I don't know why I'd have a volunteer doing coding, actually, even in a DGD MUD. 20:41:27 even when I was volunteering at Skotos, there was a clear distinction between what the builders were allowed to do (write descriptions and build up part of the prototype chain), and coders were supposed to do (actually script stuff) 20:41:28 sykopomp: perhaps it's different from LPC, then. In an LPC mud, you generally write code to implement all behaviors of your game objects. 20:42:01 heh. perhaps it's a management part on this end, then 20:42:10 nah, the way SkotOS works, you have objects with properties. The properties are delegated up the prototype chain. You have properties that are descriptions, and then you have methods which are actual code. 20:42:24 -!- Davse_Bamse [n=davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 20:42:30 SkotOS works under DGD? 20:42:37 elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:38 that's what I'm thinking. You can have the same problem if you decide to allow your builders access to your source control tree. 20:42:47 SkotOS is a modified version of DGD, yeah. 20:43:08 they've slapped a lot of their own stuff on top, though, and tweaked the swapping thing quite a bit. 20:43:28 sykopomp: Do they have more builders than coders? 20:43:30 they have a markup language for description output, and a scripting language called Merry that compiles to LPC. 20:43:45 on the game I was working at, that was most certainly the case, yeah. 20:44:31 sykopomp: so the builders can't do things like output canned responses to stimuli? they have to have a coder do it? 20:44:34 but even volunteer coders don't really deal with any of the low-level stuff. They only do scripting of game behavior. 20:44:52 plage` [n=user@118.68.32.7] has joined #lisp 20:45:00 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-040-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:29 dlowe: they -can-. Everyone has access to everything, and builders do minor canned responses here and there. The markup language (SAM) is pretty straightforward for that. 20:45:44 but when it comes to actually coding up serious merry, that's strictly the Coders' domain. 20:46:06 sykopomp: what determines the "seriousness" then, I wonder :) 20:46:43 dlowe: I would say anything that requires more than just using merry to access some object properties to spit out commands. 20:46:46 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:47:15 so pretty much anything that requires actual logic, not just basic access capabilities and really really simple conditionals for toy objects and the like. 20:47:43 the mud I was working on was pretty ad-hoc, but if it were me, I'd ban all those builders from ever touching the scripting system :P 20:48:26 sykopomp: you'd be amazed at how uncreative they can be when they can't explore the system on their own :p 20:48:51 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:49:01 dlowe: oh, they can explore it if they want, but I'm not letting a single script of theirs get into the live game :) 20:49:11 they can do whatever they want with backstage objects, though, for all I care. 20:49:50 (which is what I meant by banning them from touching it...) 20:50:30 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.11.213] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:51:50 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:58 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:38 Adlai [n=adlai@93-173-254-22.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:00:45 slowz [n=slowz@72.169.167.161] has joined #lisp 21:01:01 Good evening gentlemen. 21:01:34 -!- roidrage [n=roidrage@ip-80-226-12-152.vodafone-net.de] has quit [] 21:01:42 Good afternoon Adlai 21:02:01 I trust all is well with you? Was the train ride as spiffy as they say? 21:02:13 *optikalmouse* adjusts monocle and has a sip of tea. 21:02:21 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dc87.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:39 -!- plage [n=user@118.68.32.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:22 um... 21:03:42 the train didn't ride so I took a walk, which *was* as spiffy as they say. 21:04:48 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:06 i've been working on a lisp scripting system for use in secondlife 21:05:25 let them manager the server 21:05:46 and run scripts on their own machine 21:06:10 i mean let linden labs manager the servers 21:06:46 For SBCL, we recommend that you create a custom core file with socket support and POSIX bindings included because those modules take the most time to load. 21:06:50 is that still true? 21:07:18 it still takes some time to load 21:07:27 when I run (mapc 'require '(sb-bsd-sockets sb-posix sb-introspect sb-cltl2 asdf)) it seems pretty fast 21:07:38 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:07:48 leo2007: If it's fast enough for you, then feel free to ignore the optimization advice. 21:08:13 Honestly, I just run a stock core and let the contribs load as they may. 21:08:18 1.813 seconds of real time 21:08:32 it takes some time to start up the vanilla sbcl 21:09:02 hold on 21:09:33 Hrm... No obvious way to run a random openoffice basic script from the command line. Guess it's time to evaluate plans B and C... 21:10:26 nyef: which are? 21:10:34 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 21:10:48 cl-pdf and that-other-python+reportlab. 21:10:49 leo2007: does it matter much? are you writing a desktop app? or something else? 21:10:56 no 21:11:00 I am reading slime's manual 21:11:05 ah 21:11:05 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:11:34 laynor [n=laynor@93.107.3.30] has joined #lisp 21:11:41 if you really want to speed up, then also preload swank 21:11:48 Heh. Slime takes all of a few seconds to load. And I don't load it all that often, largely due to leaving it running all the time. 21:11:49 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:54 it did improve the loading time 21:12:15 nyef: same here too, I hide sbcl in screen 21:12:21 *stassats`* used to preload swank in the past 21:12:53 I'd consider preloading McCLIM, but there's little point as I don't actually -use- McCLIM... 21:13:05 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:47 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-41-17.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:05 I have a bit of a tricky question. 21:14:28 now I got a new core, how to make sbcl find it 21:14:31 On the side, I've been tutoring a rather young kid in English and programming. 21:14:32 I have a bit of a tricky answer. Let's see if they match. 21:14:38 sbcl --core core 21:14:42 *Adlai* likes ^^ 21:14:55 stassats`: I mean without that --core line 21:15:09 (my dad used to say that to his clients when they asked him questions) 21:15:12 anyways 21:15:16 so I'm tutoring this kid 21:15:19 leo2007: Have a look at the environment variables that SBCL checks on startup. 21:15:47 SBCL_HOME? 21:16:02 his interest is in learning to build games, so basically we're building a simple game and I'm trying to teach him through that. 21:16:20 leo2007: Alternately, use a shell script wrapper. 21:16:26 I'm trying to use the simplest subset of CL so that he can understand it (he's 11 years old) 21:16:50 lambda? 21:16:50 Of course he started asking recently how to add animations to the game... 21:17:20 nope, no lambdas. just functions, storing variables, a tiny bit of math, printing text, cond, etc 21:17:50 just lambda would be simpler 21:18:19 I think lambda would be difficult for an 11yo to understand... 21:18:24 stassats`: Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler. Just lambda is that little bit simpler that things shouldn't. 21:18:29 *sykopomp* wonders if that's true. 21:19:01 leo2007: The other option is to dump an executable with an embedded core. 21:19:09 Adlai: well, how could you tell 21:19:44 stassats, I just haven't tried teaching lambda to him yet... but I just think it's too abstract. 21:19:59 well, you can add turtles also 21:20:02 anyways, my question is what's the simplest way to add a GUI to a CL program. 21:20:12 turtles? 21:20:18 *Adlai* is very confused. 21:20:19 The simplest way is not to. 21:20:29 stassats`: Logo? 21:20:32 Adlai: lambdas shouldn't be hard to understand. Also, have you tried showing Logo? 21:20:52 hm. I hadn't thought of Logo. 21:20:52 nyef: that's what i was referring to 21:20:56 Logo is a very good language if you have competent teacher for it and competent book that explains it properly 21:21:00 stassats`: Thought so. 21:21:00 how interactive can a Logo program be? 21:21:06 Adlai: Very 21:21:08 ie could you write a game in Logo? 21:21:17 Adlai: it's designed for teaching kids to program. 21:21:19 Adlai: It's been done. 21:21:37 (all I remember about Logo is drawing a few circles in 5th grade and deciding it was lame... I like BASIC back then!) 21:21:38 Adlai: Tic-tac-toe is fairly simple, for example. 21:21:48 Adlai: yes. Standard includes a simple drawing system, so you can later expand it into whatever you have for advanced graphics 21:22:04 The thing about Logo is that it's a watered down Lisp with some graphics stuff thrown in. 21:22:15 ok, Logo sounds like a good option. Any CL suggestions? 21:22:26 this is also a question from me... 21:22:31 Adlai: the problem is people who make it look like turtle graphics is everything about Logo 21:22:40 I've heard of CLIM but I've not done any graphics in CL yet 21:22:49 is CLIM the de-facto standard? 21:22:58 Adlai: you could write something basic on top of lispbuilder-sdl, too. 21:23:03 p_l, that would be me after trying it in 5th grade :) 21:23:04 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:11 with some basic drawing stuff so he can mess around with that. 21:23:18 minion: tell me about lispbuilder-sdl 21:23:19 Adlai: look at lispbuilder-sdl: Lispbuilder-SDL provides Common Lisp bindings for the SDL graphics library. http://www.cliki.net/lispbuilder-sdl 21:23:19 Adlai: it's a standard for GUI, but I don't have much experience with it. You can play with lispbuilder-sdl 21:23:24 that way you can have a simple immediate-mode thing. 21:23:30 -!- laynor_ [n=laynor@93.107.4.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:46 I see, CLIM = Interface Manager = GUI, not graphics 21:23:50 I think wrapping one's head around a retained mode GUI is probably a bit harder :P 21:23:54 Adlai: I recovered my respect for that language after looking over various examples from a certain book. Which included some stuff ported from PAIP 21:23:54 buttons and text boxes :) 21:23:56 -!- phf [n=phf@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:24:27 (setf *certain-book* (read (coerce p_l 'stream))) 21:24:31 (and it wasn't the easiest stuff from PAIP, nope) 21:24:34 Adlai: well, you can draw in CLIM 21:24:36 nyef: how to do that? 21:24:36 Adlai: http://github.com/sykopomp/common-worm Here's a little snake clone, if you want a reference game. 21:24:47 p_l: Computer Science Logo Style, Turtle Geometry, or something else? 21:24:56 Adlai: I can't recall it now, but mswlogo included those examples 21:25:12 leo2007: Have a look at the options to save-lisp-and-die. 21:25:25 hm, well I'll just nose around some LOGO books. 21:25:33 google helps :) 21:25:57 hm, what about interfacing between CL and Logo? 21:26:06 ie using Logo's graphics, in CL? 21:26:07 nyef: whatever accompanied UCBlogo 21:26:10 Implement LOGO in Lisp instead? 21:26:29 i'm thinking more like calling out to LOGO's graphics library, from CL 21:26:37 an "LFFI" of sorts... 21:26:58 would that be so complicated that it would be easier to just use Logo itself? 21:26:59 well, doesn't sound good 21:27:02 ok 21:27:20 Adlai: http://softronix.com/logo.html <--- check this out, includes various books, both printed and web 21:27:21 because doing graphics from lisp isn't that hard 21:27:24 ok 21:27:33 -!- lde [n=user@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:51 mswlogo has the appeal of not trying to look "child-appealing" 21:27:51 You could probably just write a set of logo-like graphics primitives that back onto CLX or whatever. 21:28:40 logo is a lot of fun 21:28:42 perhaps, you could use scheme, with dr. scheme and all 21:28:57 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:01 sykopomp, that Common-Worm game looks pretty straightforward 21:29:15 p_l, thx for the link 21:29:48 p_l, does the MSW in MSWLogo stand for what I fear it does? 21:29:58 nyef: success! 21:30:11 um, p_l, mozilla is flagging the link as a reported attack site. 21:30:31 *stassats`* has a slight deja vu about it 21:30:47 heh. I disabled "reporting attack sites" 21:31:05 Adlai: well, it's for windows, but it should work with wine nicely 21:31:23 it uses a modified version of UCBlogo 21:31:28 ironically enough, he's using Windows 21:31:37 I say ironically because his dad is apparently a Linux hacker 21:31:46 but I guess the cobbler's family goes barefoot... 21:32:02 Adlai: or maybe the kid wants to play games 21:32:25 It's not just him, it's the entire family. They're all using Windows. 21:32:32 (except the dad) 21:32:38 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:32:45 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:32:56 what's UCBLogo? 21:33:10 ah 21:33:11 nvm 21:34:12 _bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has joined #lisp 21:34:42 -!- tombom [i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:34:49 p_l: Some evidence suggests that it might have been one of the three-volume set of Computer Science Logo Style that you were thinking of. 21:34:57 hmm, plt-scheme even has turtle graphics 21:34:58 I should probably re-read them one of these days. 21:35:02 nyef: yeah, I think it might be it 21:35:17 *nyef* has hardcopies of some edition of them. 21:35:33 nyef: did it include that "school math assignment solver" from PAIP? 21:35:59 I remember a school math assignment solver. I must admit to not having read that section of PAIP. 21:36:10 Or, at least, not remember having read that section of PAIP. 21:36:41 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:41 jackdaw [n=chris@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:24 jackdaw: wasn't jack daw a character in some novel? 21:37:31 it's based on STUDENT from 1964, written by Daniel Bobrow for his PhD research 21:38:01 ahah, jackdaw was a character in Richard Powers' novel Plowing THe Dark 21:38:07 solid, my memory is solid :D 21:38:21 nyef: you can find it in chapter 7 of PAIP 21:38:26 optikalmouse: A jackdaw is a kind of bird, noted for theivery. 21:38:36 optikalmouse: i was going for the more avian reference: corvus monedula 21:38:55 jackdaw, I think Richard Powers probably was as well :) 21:39:39 plowing the dark sounds quite sexual 21:40:45 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:41:08 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:15 or agrarian, depending where you're from. 21:41:40 which of the three volumes in Computer Science Logo Style would be best, do you think? 21:41:50 (for teaching to my tutoree) 21:42:21 they strike me as maybe good for me to learn Logo, but I think they might be all too advanced. 21:42:29 (for my tutoring) 21:44:16 jackdaw: yeah yeah, everyone says that 21:44:39 optikalmouse: is it a famous book? is it lisp related? or just a fun reference :) 21:44:53 jackdaw: it isn't though. it's about virtual reality and imagination. parallel stories about a hostage in the middle east and a programmer-poet who's working on a VR room 21:45:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45:09 it has a reference to the game Adventure in it ;) 21:46:12 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSPec 21:46:14 -!- mrSPec is now known as mrSpec 21:46:48 -!- mogunus1 [n=marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:47:13 -!- ausente [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["eject"] 21:48:25 ausente [n=user7994@189-19-121-109.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:50:26 Okay, time for me to make myself scarce. 21:50:31 -!- nyef [n=nyef@65-125-125-98.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving the office."] 21:53:43 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.99.129] has quit [Client Quit] 21:54:28 antoni [n=user@28.pool85-53-36.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:53 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 21:56:17 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:57:54 -!- timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:59:00 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:00:07 ygi [n=stilling@0x4dd41d60.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 22:00:13 -!- ygi [n=stilling@0x4dd41d60.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-249-58-190.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:05:52 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:06:19 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 22:06:23 -!- ruediger [n=ruediger@62-47-144-148.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:07:02 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:07:41 -!- itze [n=itze@77-22-106-191-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 22:08:39 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:54 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:18:26 Is in Lisp any build-in function, to convert numbers from dec to bin? 22:19:08 mrSpec: that question doesn't make sense. 22:19:40 mrSpec: perhaps you want to print a number in a different base? 22:19:56 clhs write 22:19:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 22:19:57 (write 42 :base 2) 22:20:10 ah yes 22:20:19 base can be from 2 to 36 22:20:26 ok thanks 22:23:36 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6DC57.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:25:53 salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has joined #lisp 22:26:12 'evening 22:28:05 why no base 1? 22:28:27 There is no true base 1, unless you are only concerned with representing 0. 22:28:45 well, you can try expressing data through length... 22:29:07 (write (make-string 42 :initial-element #\1)) 22:29:11 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D784.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:29:19 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:59 stassats`'s idea sounds like base 1 to me 22:30:16 -!- HET2 [i=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:30:29 (length (make-string 42 :initial-element #\1)) => 42, (length (make-string 0 :initial-element #\1)) => 0 22:30:42 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-15081.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:29 Would you prefer a bigger screen? 22:33:38 or better, Church numerals 22:33:48 -!- slowz [n=slowz@72.169.167.161] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:49 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.145.44] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:38:22 -!- [Blay] [n=blaay@89.142.37.85] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:34 i have to admit, Church numerals look better in Scheme 22:45:39 okay, my SBCL is dropping into the debugger when trying to print Unicode to *standard-output* 22:45:44 how do I make it shut up and work? 22:45:54 it looks like something's configured to use ASCII by default...? 22:46:08 encoding error on stream # 22:46:08 LANG=some_unicode_locale sbcl 22:46:10 (:EXTERNAL-FORMAT :ASCII): 22:46:43 stassats`: will I have to do that every time I run an executable image, or only when dumping it? 22:48:00 don't know, but would guess that every time 22:48:04 that's gay 22:48:11 any way to force it in my code? 22:48:56 sb-sys:make-fd-stream and sb-sys:fd-stream-fd 22:49:26 no, force the use of unicode globally 22:50:18 what "use of unicode"? 22:50:29 pkhuong: as opposed to ASCII. 22:50:41 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-82-202.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:50:46 what makes you think SBCL doesn't use unicode everywhere, internally? 22:50:46 plus setting sb-impl::*default-external-format* and sb-alien::*default-c-string-external-format* 22:51:00 stassats`: thank you, that was what I was looking for. 22:51:07 will that retroactively fix *standard-output* and such? 22:51:30 no 22:51:55 so what can I do about that 22:52:04 what pkhuong said 22:52:42 (or 1 for stdout, 2 for stderr, no need for fd-stream-fd) 22:54:19 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-8-10.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 22:54:47 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-193-104-180.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:54:47 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@142.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:52 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:54:56 there is also sb-impl::stream-reinit, would it work? 22:55:11 worth a try 22:57:49 seems to work 22:58:25 cool, thanks :) 23:00:34 incidentally 23:00:49 or sb-kernel:stream-cold-init-or-reset would be better 23:01:13 is there any way to get the 'print' form of an expression without using a string output stream? 23:01:26 princ-to-string 23:01:37 I said print, not princ 23:01:46 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:02:15 wait, nevermind 23:02:20 found the format specifier: ~s 23:02:50 prin1-to-string then 23:02:54 prin1-to-string, unless you really like weird whitespace. 23:03:05 that works too 23:03:06 thanks 23:03:51 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-2-217.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:04:44 -!- klapaucjusz [n=jch@lanthane.pps.jussieu.fr] has quit ["leaving"] 23:07:10 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 23:07:29 -!- willb [n=wibenton@compsci-wifi-39.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:15 -!- elliotstern [n=chatzill@cpe-67-240-162-85.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:11:46 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-193-1-96.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:13:49 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-75-36-204-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:57 -!- plage` [n=user@118.68.32.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:35 ruepel0r [n=rue@203-97-49-162.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 23:22:47 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 23:24:24 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-182-46.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:35:50 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.147.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:18 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:35 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:43 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-795abdccdf3ded3d] has quit [] 23:46:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:22 fusss [i=738000be@gateway/web/freenode/x-38a4f0fe892ba7c4] has joined #lisp 23:48:34 any rucksack users around? 23:48:39 drewc: herep 23:48:59 I just ran head first into an embarassing "bug" or perhaps deliberate design 23:49:15 rucksack doesn't save anything between sessions. is that deliberate? 23:52:54 also (setf (slot-accessor obj) new-value) doesn't work when obj is an instance of a rucksack class and slot-accessor is an accessor for a slot. 23:53:11 how can i update instances in the store? 23:55:58 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 23:56:03 -!- Edward__ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-7.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 23:58:17 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp