2021-05-01T00:03:03Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T00:10:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T00:14:41Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T00:32:58Z Zipheir: duncanm: Riastradh retired as chanop back in February, but hopefully he'll come back and chat at some point. 2021-05-01T00:45:36Z logand` joined #scheme 2021-05-01T00:49:11Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-01T01:16:00Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T01:16:39Z ChoHag: But you did know the summoning part? 2021-05-01T01:33:01Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T01:37:37Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T01:49:23Z mason left #scheme 2021-05-01T02:05:48Z elderK joined #scheme 2021-05-01T02:31:23Z malaclyps quit (Quit: gone) 2021-05-01T02:42:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T02:46:22Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T02:49:44Z jcowan: All I can say is, I addressed a line to him when he wasn't showing up on the /who list, and he promptly joined and replied. 2021-05-01T02:53:47Z Zipheir: He's quite a legend. 2021-05-01T02:54:30Z elderK quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-01T03:01:47Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-01T03:04:31Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T03:13:36Z malaclyps joined #scheme 2021-05-01T03:26:25Z raingloom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T03:27:03Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-01T03:32:37Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-01T03:36:49Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T03:37:35Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-01T03:59:00Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-01T04:04:01Z daviid: amirouche: this scheme for max, max isn't free s/w, so, how does one even try the thing? and also, it's only fron win and macos ? curious 2021-05-01T04:05:35Z marusich joined #scheme 2021-05-01T04:06:21Z Zipheir: Maybe it could be made to work with PureData. 2021-05-01T04:21:54Z daviid: that max program are called patches makes you feel you onlg write bugs in those lang 2021-05-01T04:24:00Z tophullyte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T04:24:05Z phossil joined #scheme 2021-05-01T04:24:34Z phossil quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-01T04:25:29Z oxum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-01T04:26:26Z tophullyte joined #scheme 2021-05-01T04:27:52Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-05-01T04:28:21Z oxum quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-01T04:42:59Z Zipheir: Patches always fix bugs? 2021-05-01T04:43:42Z Zipheir: Given that many VCSs think in terms of patches, an initial commit message might then be "Bugfix: software did not exist." 2021-05-01T04:43:45Z floppy_disk joined #scheme 2021-05-01T04:56:57Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:03:46Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:04:04Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:05:58Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:06:08Z floppy_disk quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-01T05:10:14Z jcowan: Analog synthesizers hooked up one component to another using patch cords/cables, which carried the signal from the output of one device to the input of another. The etymology is that patch cords were used to replace failing equipment by patching in new equipment without having to rebuild the whole system. Patch files are a virtualization of this. 2021-05-01T05:11:37Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z klovett quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z evdubs_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z edgar-rft quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z sm2n quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z nevermind quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z ravndal quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z mzan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z astronavt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z Formbi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z Vultyre quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z yosafbridge quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z `micro quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z lloda quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z LeoNerd quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z kjak quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:09Z terrorjack quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:13:10Z copec quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z nevermind joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z ravndal joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z mzan joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z astronavt joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z Formbi joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z `micro joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z lloda joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z terrorjack joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:23:55Z copec joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:25:11Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: Some of my code, though mostly documentation, does have "FIXME: write it!" comments in it, which implies that "did not exist" may indeed be a bug. 2021-05-01T05:25:19Z nmeum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T05:26:07Z nmeum joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:58:00Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T05:58:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-01T05:58:19Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T05:59:51Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T05:59:54Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-01T06:00:34Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-01T06:00:56Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-05-01T06:04:20Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T06:13:18Z tophullyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-01T06:14:07Z tophullyte joined #scheme 2021-05-01T06:22:51Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-01T06:34:51Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T06:36:10Z mdhughes_ is now known as mdhughes 2021-05-01T06:37:48Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-01T06:53:00Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T06:54:27Z srji quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-01T06:56:21Z srji joined #scheme 2021-05-01T07:00:24Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T07:17:52Z tophullyte quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T07:17:52Z phossil joined #scheme 2021-05-01T07:18:36Z phossil quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-01T07:47:36Z ChoHag: Zipheir: That's the TDD model. 2021-05-01T07:58:48Z amirouche: duncanm: good question, I was also wondering where they were gone. 2021-05-01T07:59:08Z amirouche: but I have no question for him in particular! 2021-05-01T07:59:55Z amirouche: DGASAU: Did you try MIT/Scheme on openbsd / netbsd? 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2021-05-01T13:19:22Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-01T13:20:38Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-01T13:21:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T13:26:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-01T13:28:02Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T13:28:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-01T13:32:37Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T13:37:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T13:49:49Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-01T13:54:26Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-01T14:03:35Z TCZ quit (Quit: ...) 2021-05-01T14:07:45Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-01T14:18:53Z amirouche: siraben: here is link to my reply (and the thread) https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-discuss/msg/16533512/ 2021-05-01T14:19:11Z amirouche: I did not re-read everything, and my reply not necessarly covers all the discussion / aspects of the discussions. 2021-05-01T14:20:05Z amirouche: Notably, I did not repeat that R7RS is a success. 2021-05-01T14:20:05Z pbaille_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T14:20:33Z amirouche: I mean even it is not finished, it had a good impact on Scheme AFAICT 2021-05-01T14:20:40Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T14:24:46Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T14:30:26Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T14:34:16Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-01T14:35:07Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-01T14:40:06Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T14:40:30Z f8l joined #scheme 2021-05-01T14:51:10Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T14:55:26Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T15:03:23Z mjsir911 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T15:03:25Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T15:03:42Z mjsir911 joined #scheme 2021-05-01T15:04:19Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T15:08:25Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-01T15:09:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T15:10:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T15:25:33Z jcowan: There is no use talking about "success" until you define it. I consider my life successful even though I haven't made a lot of money or fame. 2021-05-01T15:26:10Z jcowan: One person said that just getting Chicken to adopt modules made R6 a success. 2021-05-01T15:27:15Z jcowan: which is especially funny because the Chicken team is very clear about never adopting R6. 2021-05-01T15:46:18Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-01T15:53:22Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T16:17:12Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-01T16:45:51Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-01T17:03:03Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T17:03:58Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-01T17:10:19Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-05-01T17:10:32Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-05-01T17:34:25Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T17:34:46Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-01T17:48:54Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-01T17:49:36Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T17:50:05Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-01T17:52:07Z choas joined #scheme 2021-05-01T17:52:35Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-01T17:58:53Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-01T18:01:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T18:03:10Z choas joined #scheme 2021-05-01T18:11:14Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-01T18:14:02Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-01T18:20:48Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-01T18:23:11Z yhsiveht joined #scheme 2021-05-01T18:26:06Z thevishy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T18:43:52Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-05-01T18:46:20Z oxum quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-01T18:48:12Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-01T19:03:51Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T19:04:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T19:06:53Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T19:08:18Z mathmech joined #scheme 2021-05-01T19:09:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T19:09:25Z evdubs_ is now known as evdubs 2021-05-01T19:48:06Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T19:52:21Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T19:59:53Z ChoHag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-01T20:00:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:05:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:05:27Z ChoHag joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:06:11Z amirouche: Zipheir: we got a similar idea about the notation to describe type predicates of arguments. I am want to create a pre-srfi for it. A name comes to mind: 'signatures'. 2021-05-01T20:07:16Z amirouche: related question: in java, because that is the only language that use that, are the type of exceptions that may be raised, part of what they call signatures? 2021-05-01T20:07:42Z abralek_ joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:09:03Z ChoHag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T20:13:47Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:20:33Z Zipheir: amirouche: "type predicates of arguments". How so? 2021-05-01T20:20:59Z Zipheir: amirouche: A shortcut for writing dynamic type-checks? 2021-05-01T20:22:05Z amirouche: I got an idea, I will bundle everything inside a single pre-srfi, one may split it later, use it as inspiration 2021-05-01T20:22:28Z amirouche: In my approach I use it for arguments, return values and whatever may be raised. 2021-05-01T20:22:44Z Zipheir: amirouche: Can you describe it in a nutshell? 2021-05-01T20:24:03Z amirouche: I do not have an example that may raise. 2021-05-01T20:24:25Z amirouche: (okdb-query handle key [other [offset [limit]]]) handle? bytevector? bytevector? integer? integer? → (either? bytevector? procedure?) 2021-05-01T20:24:32Z amirouche: either? is predicate combinator 2021-05-01T20:25:05Z amirouche: handle? is defined in terms of predicate combinator (either? okdb? okdb-transaction? okdb-handle?) in the spec 2021-05-01T20:26:34Z amirouche: here is the unicode char for documentation what is raised: ⤴ 2021-05-01T20:27:06Z amirouche: I do know what to do about continuable exception. 2021-05-01T20:27:31Z ChoHag joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:29:09Z amirouche: I know what, I can use upward arrow for raise, and up-down arrow for raise-continu... 2021-05-01T20:29:21Z Zipheir: So that expands to type checks like (assume (bytevector? arg)) on the arguments and on the returned result? 2021-05-01T20:29:51Z amirouche: up-down arrow looks like: ↕ 2021-05-01T20:30:02Z amirouche: Zipheir: yes 2021-05-01T20:30:11Z Zipheir: OK. 2021-05-01T20:30:32Z Zipheir: You might want a different name than either?, which clashes with SRFI 189's either?. 2021-05-01T20:31:16Z amirouche: ok 2021-05-01T20:38:01Z Zipheir: In fact, it seems to me that what you've called either? isn't a predicate, in the usual Scheme sense, since it raises an exception if the type check doesn't hold. Since it's a disjunction, maybe (|| ...) or (any-of ...). 2021-05-01T20:40:41Z Zipheir: amirouche: Have you heard of blame calculus? The arrows remind me of it; it might be worth considering whether this SRFI could use some ideas from it. 2021-05-01T20:43:38Z amirouche: never heard of it. ty. 2021-05-01T20:44:27Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:44:35Z amirouche: suffice to say that query makes google completly buggy. 2021-05-01T20:44:46Z brownxoat quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-01T20:44:51Z amirouche: I typed: blame calculus wikipedia 2021-05-01T20:44:53Z dpk: i think CombinatorsCowan provides something like either? … 2021-05-01T20:44:56Z brownxoat joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:44:59Z edmoore quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:45:06Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:45:21Z dpk: yeah, any-of? https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/CombinatorsCowan.md 2021-05-01T20:45:33Z amirouche: it gives me only french unrelated results, including providential state, AI and or whatever lol 2021-05-01T20:45:47Z cemerick joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:46:23Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:46:29Z cybersyn joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:47:07Z edmoore joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:47:09Z dpk: currently on the aqua docket ('portable but complex things', although not much there seems that complex to me …) 2021-05-01T20:47:13Z jcowan joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:47:24Z dpk: (especially if we have higher-order define …) 2021-05-01T20:47:54Z Zipheir: amirouche: https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/topics/blame.html 2021-05-01T20:47:59Z supercoven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-01T20:48:21Z Zipheir: amirouche: It's a concept originating with Wadler & Findler that's been very prominent in gradual type theory. 2021-05-01T20:49:01Z Zipheir: amirouche: Put simply, it provides a way to decide "who gets blamed" when a type check fails somewhere in an expression. 2021-05-01T20:49:57Z jladd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:50:11Z Zipheir: amirouche: This is more meaningful when some terms have statically-known types and others dynamic, but it may still be relevant in terms of pinpointing problems in Scheme code with type signatures. 2021-05-01T20:50:17Z dpk: jcowan: why isn't any-of? in CombinatorsCowan any-of, returning the actual value of the first true application rather than just #t? 2021-05-01T20:50:34Z Zipheir: dpk: Oops, yet another name clash. 2021-05-01T20:51:08Z dpk: jcowan: why isn't any-of? in CombinatorsCowan any-of, returning the actual value of the first true application rather than just #t? 2021-05-01T20:51:14Z SrPx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:51:16Z jladd joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:51:21Z dpk: thanks, IRCCloud, for sending that message twice 2021-05-01T20:51:31Z Zipheir: Ah, the Wadler bibliography on the topic is excellent. And I always have to comment on how fantastic the title "Threesomes, with and without blame" is. 2021-05-01T20:51:39Z dpk: Zipheir: with what? 2021-05-01T20:52:02Z Zipheir: what? with? 2021-05-01T20:52:59Z Zipheir: Oh, I finally parsed that question. 2021-05-01T20:53:43Z Zipheir: dpk: With better use of space, apparently. 2021-05-01T20:53:48Z dip joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:53:50Z jladd quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-05-01T20:53:57Z dip: oop, looks like IRCCloud is really playing up 2021-05-01T20:54:03Z dip: (tis dpk here) 2021-05-01T20:54:14Z SrPx joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:54:34Z stephe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:54:43Z dto quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:54:43Z samth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:54:53Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:54:54Z ullbeking quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:54:59Z rann quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:54:59Z dip: aye, ping timeouts from IRCCloud all around 2021-05-01T20:55:11Z dnm joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:55:35Z Balooga quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-01T20:56:06Z dto joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:57:05Z stephe joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:57:11Z ullbeking joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:57:16Z jladd joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:57:21Z rann joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:57:21Z samth joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:57:28Z Balooga joined #scheme 2021-05-01T20:57:57Z amirouche: Zipheir: I need to focus, I will backlog later or comment in the related pre-srfi repo please at: https://github.com/amirouche/unit-scheme 2021-05-01T20:58:22Z amirouche: Yes, I will describe a subset of Scheme. 2021-05-01T20:58:44Z amirouche: plus some extensions, that may be moved to their own pre-srfi. 2021-05-01T21:07:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T21:08:53Z dip quit (Quit: looks like IRCCloud is back to normal) 2021-05-01T21:09:38Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-01T21:12:47Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-01T21:12:52Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T21:13:28Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T21:14:47Z jcowan: dpk: fixed it 2021-05-01T21:15:14Z yhsiveht quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-01T21:17:33Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T21:27:55Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T21:29:34Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-01T21:30:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-01T21:33:13Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-01T21:37:53Z amirouche: Zipheir: nvm, i got to sleep, I will back log later the links... 2021-05-01T21:38:37Z amirouche: I need to go back in a mood / focus of producing code. 2021-05-01T21:46:31Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T21:48:34Z dpk: jcowan: they should also lose the ? from the name to match member and friends, assoc and friends, and any and every from SRFI 1, no? 2021-05-01T21:49:15Z dpk: even if normally used as a predicate, a procedure which returns a useful value gets no ? 2021-05-01T21:54:15Z dpk: and in fact, as combinators, they don't return #t or #f at all themselves, but rather procedures 2021-05-01T21:54:21Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-01T21:56:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T21:58:33Z dpk: also (any-of bytevector? string?) looks better than (any-of? bytevector? string?) in my view (in the latter it looks like all three parts do the same thing) 2021-05-01T21:58:51Z wklew quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-05-01T22:01:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T22:03:06Z jcowan: agreed 2021-05-01T22:03:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-01T22:09:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T22:20:46Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-01T22:33:24Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T22:38:00Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-01T22:42:53Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-01T22:44:55Z TCZ is now known as figurine 2021-05-01T22:49:26Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-01T22:51:07Z badkins joined #scheme 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2021-05-02T13:32:35Z pflanze is now known as tanze 2021-05-02T13:33:19Z tinga is now known as pflanze 2021-05-02T13:36:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T13:42:02Z tanze is now known as tinga 2021-05-02T13:42:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-02T13:49:16Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T13:49:36Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-02T14:03:09Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T14:09:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T14:10:18Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-02T14:12:26Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T14:18:24Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-02T14:31:34Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-02T14:38:36Z lockywolf: How is guilemacs working? Is it an Emacs Lisp interpreter in Guile? Or an editor written directly in Scheme? 2021-05-02T14:38:47Z lockywolf: Or a #lang emacs-lisp ? 2021-05-02T14:40:58Z ssbnxx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-02T14:47:06Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T14:50:33Z vms14 joined #scheme 2021-05-02T14:56:20Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-02T15:03:37Z wasamasa: lol 2021-05-02T15:03:49Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-02T15:03:51Z wasamasa: guilemacs is emacs with a heavily edited eval.c 2021-05-02T15:04:29Z wasamasa: it's combined with a guile release implementing elisp in scheme 2021-05-02T15:04:54Z wasamasa: that elisp implementation is microscopic 2021-05-02T15:05:07Z wasamasa: some of the implemented functions are plain wrong 2021-05-02T15:05:19Z wasamasa: these are replaced with the actual functions provided by emacs 2021-05-02T15:06:06Z wasamasa: so while eval is provided by guile, it can still interface with emacs things 2021-05-02T15:06:38Z wasamasa: slowly 2021-05-02T15:07:28Z vms14: still looking for someone who used s7 scheme to see if he/she can provide me some little guide 2021-05-02T15:07:39Z vms14: but idk where to find him/her 2021-05-02T15:08:27Z wasamasa: well, at some point you realise you're that person 2021-05-02T15:09:41Z wasamasa: you can leave something out there for other people, but chances are they'll do their own thing 2021-05-02T15:11:46Z vms14: it seems 2021-05-02T15:11:48Z wasamasa: but really, if you have a s7 question, post it 2021-05-02T15:11:53Z wasamasa: otherwise there's no chance it gets answered 2021-05-02T15:12:08Z wasamasa: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/s7.html suggests it's not supposed to be your first scheme 2021-05-02T15:12:30Z vms14: the question is I have to define a new type just to pass a c pointer to scheme? 2021-05-02T15:13:27Z vms14: wasamasa: I'm reading this, it's nice documented it gives you a lot of examples and really helps you at understanding what you have to do, but if you have questions you don't have anyone to ask, just the code and your own tests 2021-05-02T15:13:38Z wasamasa: exactly 2021-05-02T15:13:42Z wasamasa: that seems like a TIAS thing 2021-05-02T15:13:51Z wasamasa: try it out, see if it works, try out some more 2021-05-02T15:14:23Z vms14: anyway I'll just try stuff and see what happens, but wanted to see if someone knew about so I could have some warnings and guide about how to do things there 2021-05-02T15:14:24Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T15:14:43Z wasamasa: CCRMA has a bunch of mailing lists 2021-05-02T15:14:49Z wasamasa: I posted to the ChucK one before 2021-05-02T15:14:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T15:15:16Z vms14: yeah, wanted some kind of irc channel or alike. But maybe it's time to start using mailing lists 2021-05-02T15:19:44Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-02T15:23:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T15:27:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T15:32:19Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-02T15:40:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T15:44:41Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T15:52:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T15:55:16Z Zipheir: jcowan: There's no degree requirement for being what you call an "ontologist". Neither is there a requirement to be ignorant of practical programming matters. 2021-05-02T15:57:03Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-02T15:58:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-02T16:02:59Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-02T16:13:33Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T16:13:46Z xelxebar_ joined #scheme 2021-05-02T16:15:19Z cybersyn joined #scheme 2021-05-02T16:18:32Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-05-02T16:23:02Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-02T16:41:23Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-02T17:08:44Z vms14: found the way to pass pointers to s7 scheme :D 2021-05-02T17:18:45Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-02T17:27:11Z theca joined #scheme 2021-05-02T17:30:23Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-02T17:31:08Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-02T17:37:23Z mnieper joined #scheme 2021-05-02T17:48:02Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T17:49:54Z theca quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-02T17:51:34Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-02T17:51:41Z mnieper left #scheme 2021-05-02T17:51:44Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-02T18:03:13Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-02T18:12:10Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-02T18:12:47Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-02T18:15:09Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-02T18:22:35Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-02T18:22:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T18:23:58Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-05-02T18:23:59Z oxum quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-02T18:28:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-02T18:28:25Z indathrone joined #scheme 2021-05-02T18:40:05Z theca joined #scheme 2021-05-02T18:55:27Z theca quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-02T18:57:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-02T19:02:23Z amirouche: I drafted an early spec for something inspired from CML. I wondering whether coop-wrap should be named coop-lift 2021-05-02T19:02:26Z amirouche: https://github.com/pre-srfi/coop#coop-wrap-operation-proc 2021-05-02T19:02:58Z amirouche: in haskell, I think coop-apply would be called coop-map. 2021-05-02T19:03:00Z amirouche: anyway. 2021-05-02T19:04:58Z theca joined #scheme 2021-05-02T19:05:35Z amirouche: that a high level framework / toolkit / library to handle concurrency, parallel or not. 2021-05-02T19:07:04Z amirouche: you can implement things that are similar to what is done with mutex and condition variables signal and broadcast, but you can not dead lock. 2021-05-02T19:08:01Z amirouche: AFAIK you can only starve if you do not use timeouts. 2021-05-02T19:22:06Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-02T19:29:01Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-02T19:30:39Z _________ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-02T19:37:46Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T19:38:11Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-02T19:38:29Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T19:38:57Z jcowan: Zipheir: For being an ontologist, no. FOr getting a job labeled "ontologist", at least in these parts, yes. 2021-05-02T19:39:56Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-02T19:47:13Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T19:52:58Z Zipheir: Hahah. 2021-05-02T19:53:36Z jcowan: However, I find that managers often don't know the difference; they advertise for an ontologist, but they want an o.e. 2021-05-02T19:53:40Z Zipheir: "Please see my resumé for evidence showing my extensive lack of practical knowledge." 2021-05-02T19:58:48Z theca quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-05-02T20:09:44Z jcowan chuckles 2021-05-02T20:11:49Z aukkras joined #scheme 2021-05-02T20:12:04Z aukkras is now known as _________ 2021-05-02T20:20:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T20:26:29Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-02T20:28:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T20:33:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-02T20:43:11Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-02T20:47:55Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T20:48:51Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-02T20:49:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T20:50:02Z cybersyn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T20:51:43Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T20:55:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-02T21:02:26Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-02T21:16:45Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T21:18:50Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-02T21:19:56Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-02T21:21:10Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-02T21:32:06Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T21:48:34Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-02T22:07:57Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T22:19:05Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-02T22:22:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T22:24:12Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T22:24:53Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-02T22:26:09Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-02T22:26:10Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-02T22:26:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-02T22:27:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-02T22:37:27Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-02T22:41:43Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-02T22:42:18Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-02T22:51:59Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-02T23:03:09Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T23:11:04Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-02T23:13:21Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-02T23:14:13Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T23:16:18Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-02T23:18:09Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-02T23:28:20Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-05-02T23:45:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-02T23:47:46Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T23:48:36Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-02T23:49:01Z ramrunner joined #scheme 2021-05-02T23:49:12Z ramrunner quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-02T23:50:26Z dieggsy: Zipheir: ha, me IRL 2021-05-02T23:51:28Z dieggsy: "please believe I can program" "but where's the proof?" *publicly available lisp code is invisible to hiring managers* 2021-05-02T23:51:34Z dieggsy: heh 2021-05-02T23:51:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-02T23:55:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T00:06:38Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T00:09:46Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T00:10:03Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T00:11:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-03T00:11:21Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-03T00:11:21Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-03T00:11:33Z Zipheir: Well, if you can't program, you could (per Dijkstra) still do software engineering. :) 2021-05-03T00:15:23Z phillbush: Hello, I'm getting the following error on chibi-scheme 2021-05-03T00:15:25Z phillbush: ERROR: undefined variable: assertion-violation 2021-05-03T00:15:38Z phillbush: My implementation doesn't have this procedure? 2021-05-03T00:16:08Z phillbush: How can I use it? Do I need to import some library or something? 2021-05-03T00:16:35Z phillbush: (I'm learning scheme now, with The Scheme Programming Language book) 2021-05-03T00:20:32Z Zipheir: phillbush: assertion-violation is defined in R6RS. chibi is an R7RS implementation. 2021-05-03T00:20:46Z Zipheir: (And TSPL is very much an R6 book!) 2021-05-03T00:22:18Z phillbush: Zipheir: Thanks. That makes sense. 2021-05-03T00:22:47Z phillbush: Do you recommend me to use another implementation or to use another book? 2021-05-03T00:25:44Z Zipheir: phillbush: It's up to you. It's pretty easy to install Chez, Guile, or Racket (the major R6 Schemes) if you want to conveniently run *all* of the code in TSPL. IIRC, a lot of it is quite portable, though. 2021-05-03T00:28:15Z Zipheir: phillbush: The Little/Seasoned Schemer are my favorite fully-portable intros to Scheme. 2021-05-03T00:32:02Z phillbush: I'm gonna try racket then. I just bought SICP and want to read that after TSPL. I heard it's more convenient to run the code from SICP in racket. 2021-05-03T00:32:20Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-03T00:34:10Z dieggsy: phillbush: i have only good things to say about racket 2021-05-03T00:34:24Z Zipheir: phillbush: Racket has a nice REPL, and I believe it implements the SICP picture language. 2021-05-03T00:35:02Z dieggsy: racket is IMO just damn usable lol. and practical 2021-05-03T00:35:33Z dieggsy: probably largely because it's quite popular/has a good amount of libraries 2021-05-03T00:35:52Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T00:36:32Z clacke: phillbush: One of the many languages included in Racket is a SICP language intended to use for the code in the book. 2021-05-03T00:36:33Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T00:36:40Z dieggsy: decently fast, too, and you can have #lang scheme or #lang r7rs if you want. idk. what's not to like, i guess. ....that said, i don't really actually use it myself heh 2021-05-03T00:37:05Z epony joined #scheme 2021-05-03T00:38:52Z phillbush: Another question: I'm on UNIX, and I symlinked /usr/local/bin/chibi-scheme to ~/bin/scheme-r7rs (to use #!shebangs). When I call chibi-scheme either interactivelly or via shebang, I can run the program. But when I call it as scheme-r7rs, it does not enter the REPL interactive mode and exits with the error "couldn't find main binding: main in (null)" 2021-05-03T00:39:00Z phillbush: Is that required by r7rs? 2021-05-03T00:40:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T00:41:09Z Zipheir: No, that sounds like a chibi thing. 2021-05-03T00:41:38Z Zipheir: It's probably looking for libraries in the wrong place due to being installed to a different PREFIX. 2021-05-03T00:41:53Z phillbush: I found that on the code: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/main.c#L313-L323 2021-05-03T00:42:02Z logand`` joined #scheme 2021-05-03T00:42:19Z phillbush: It checks argv[0] against "scheme-r7rs" 2021-05-03T00:42:25Z Zipheir: Oh, huh. 2021-05-03T00:43:27Z phillbush: (and I found an error in the comment lol, it's /usr/bin/env not /usr/env/bin) 2021-05-03T00:43:51Z Zipheir: I don't know. Maybe foof will clarify what that's about. 2021-05-03T00:44:07Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-03T00:44:20Z clacke: according to SRFI-22: "Upon invocation of a script, the Scheme system calls a procedure named main with one argument, a list of strings containing the Unix command-line arguments to the script, i.e. the elements of the argv vector of the Scheme script interpreter process from index 1 on. Thus, the first element of the list is the name of the script." 2021-05-03T00:44:53Z clacke: it makes sense to follow this when called with an SRFI-22 command name 2021-05-03T00:45:06Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T00:45:23Z clacke: although other implementations may try to be smarter and guess that you want a REPL 2021-05-03T00:45:30Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-03T00:47:44Z Zipheir: That should work with chibi-scheme -r. 2021-05-03T00:48:01Z phillbush: Thanks, clacke. 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Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the IRC world.) 2021-05-03T06:19:17Z mathmech quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-05-03T06:55:52Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-03T07:01:23Z clacke: the behavior of the REPL isn't standardized anyway (?), so I don't know if it makes sense to provide the REPL under a standardized bame 2021-05-03T07:01:23Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-03T07:01:24Z clacke: name* 2021-05-03T07:18:48Z mhd2018 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T07:21:50Z amirouche: Bam! a REPL! Bam! 2021-05-03T07:22:17Z amirouche: "Bam" is an exclamation in french, said when something fall on the ground or table. 2021-05-03T07:22:31Z dpk: out of curiosity, is there a Scheme with Common Lisp-style conditions and restarts? 2021-05-03T07:22:53Z dpk: /a portable implementation of conditions and restarts on call/cc? (seems like it should be possible) 2021-05-03T07:23:34Z amirouche: I assume you know about raise-cont...? 2021-05-03T07:23:56Z dpk: no? 2021-05-03T07:24:00Z amirouche: I was under the impression that was the low level procedure to implement restarts 2021-05-03T07:24:06Z dpk: do you mean the continuable exceptions built in to R7RS? 2021-05-03T07:24:43Z amirouche: yes 2021-05-03T07:24:44Z dpk: they're not quite the same: aiui, CL restarts can be in a different place from the error site, offering different possibilities to resolve the same error 2021-05-03T07:24:45Z amirouche: https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme/blob/master/manuscript/scheme-base.md#raise-continuable-obj 2021-05-03T07:25:41Z dpk: whereas the R7RS system (while already more advanced than anything any comparable language offers in terms of exception handling) can only restart from the continuation of the raising procedure, iirc? 2021-05-03T07:25:59Z amirouche: dpk: that is what I understood. 2021-05-03T07:26:07Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-03T07:26:44Z dpk: MIT Scheme seems to offer something similar https://www.ps.uni-saarland.de/courses/info-i/scheme/doc/refman/refman_17.html 2021-05-03T07:26:53Z amirouche: I am not sure about CL. But the expert about CL conditions and restarts is on the channel ##lisp 2021-05-03T07:27:47Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-05-03T07:50:17Z swamps quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-05-03T07:50:41Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T07:55:16Z pbaille quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-05-03T07:55:17Z mhd2018 quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-05-03T08:07:26Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T08:09:33Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T08:30:10Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-03T08:35:52Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T08:42:42Z cjb quit 2021-05-03T09:09:17Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-03T09:14:21Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-05-03T10:28:39Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-03T10:54:29Z zgrep quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T10:55:49Z zgrep joined #scheme 2021-05-03T10:57:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T11:02:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-03T11:34:02Z abralek_ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T11:40:14Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T11:42:49Z sm2n: it is definitely possible 2021-05-03T11:42:57Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-03T11:53:38Z irc_user quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-03T11:54:14Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T11:57:01Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-03T12:05:28Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-05-03T12:15:54Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-03T12:17:23Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-03T12:17:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T12:22:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-03T12:37:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T12:40:11Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T12:43:42Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-03T12:44:07Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-03T12:47:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T12:55:32Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T13:13:01Z jcowan: I have a pre-SRFI for restarts (much simplified from CL, but I think still with the essence) at https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/RestartsCowan.md 2021-05-03T13:28:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T13:28:23Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-03T13:46:22Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-03T13:46:46Z logand``` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-03T13:46:59Z brownxoat quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-03T13:49:43Z scm joined #scheme 2021-05-03T13:50:21Z logand``` joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:02:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:06:31Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-03T14:09:41Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:16:26Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-03T14:20:23Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:20:24Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-05-03T14:20:24Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:22:48Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:22:50Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:30:43Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-03T14:38:38Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:45:21Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:47:08Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-03T14:59:24Z mdhughes: Been watching the Euro LISP Symposium, https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2021/index.html 2021-05-03T15:00:17Z mdhughes: And they just asked a bunch of LISP implementors if they'd had any exposure to Scheme, Racket, etc. One had read Little Schemer and SICP, another had used Racket some. No real awareness of Schemes otherwise. 2021-05-03T15:01:51Z mdhughes: They do have a thing kind of like SRFI, "CDR" (try searching for that!) https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/ 2021-05-03T15:01:56Z mdhughes: It hasn't been used since 2013 2021-05-03T15:01:59Z jcowan: There's a bit of Scheme in CL: lexical scope especially. MacLisp had dynamic scope in the interpreter, lexical scope in the compiler, because everyone was convinced lexical scope interpreters were inherently inefficient 2021-05-03T15:02:28Z mdhughes: Right, but none of the people actually making LISP now have any real contact with more experimental systems. 2021-05-03T15:02:46Z mdhughes: Clojure was mentioned, IIRC nobody even responded. 2021-05-03T15:05:35Z ChoHag: There is more hostility between language camps than awareness and cross-pollination. 2021-05-03T15:06:21Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T15:06:33Z ChoHag: The whole landscape can unfortunately be very tribalist. 2021-05-03T15:06:48Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-03T15:07:01Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-03T15:07:10Z mdhughes: I dunno, I don't *like* Common LISP (both language and implementations I've got access to), but I'm certainly aware of it and can do a little work in it. 2021-05-03T15:08:07Z mdhughes: And there's every kind of language written in this channel. 2021-05-03T15:08:41Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-03T15:08:51Z ChoHag: I tried not to make an overly broad statement. It's certainly not ubiquitous. 2021-05-03T15:12:23Z cer-0 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T15:13:16Z jcowan: I think the hostility has long since died down: what we have now is detente 2021-05-03T15:14:08Z jcowan: nobody thinks that even if CL could swallow up all other Lisps it would achieve world domination, so hostility is pointless 2021-05-03T15:14:21Z jcowan: at most it is personal, not collective 2021-05-03T15:15:38Z ChoHag: Not just lisp. Programming. 2021-05-03T15:16:07Z ChoHag: It has improved in lisp from what I remember ~10-15 years ago. 2021-05-03T15:27:38Z phillbush: Hello, I'm reading TSPL (a R6RS book) and trying stuff at a R7RS implementation while googling for differences between the two standards. The book uses nested [] alongside (), but my implementation complains that it's not a pair. Are [] forbiden in R7RS? 2021-05-03T15:28:19Z phillbush: I am having a bad time with TSPL. Do you recommend a good introductory book focused on R7RS? 2021-05-03T15:28:33Z ManDay: phillbush: [] have never been in any standard, to what I know 2021-05-03T15:28:48Z ManDay: they just happen to be supported as replacement for () by some impls 2021-05-03T15:29:24Z phillbush: The book uses [] often. 2021-05-03T15:29:32Z ManDay: phillbush: I think after you know how scheme works as far as the common R*RS denominator is concerned, reading R7RS itself is the way to go 2021-05-03T15:30:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T15:31:53Z ChoHag: phillbush: Some documentation alternates () and [] pairs for visual clarity since books don't highlight the matchine bracket to the one you point at, but the vast (?) majority of schemes and lisps only accept (). 2021-05-03T15:32:20Z ChoHag: matching 2021-05-03T15:33:04Z dustyweb joined #scheme 2021-05-03T15:33:07Z dustyweb: hello 2021-05-03T15:33:11Z dustyweb: been a while since I've been in here 2021-05-03T15:33:19Z dustyweb: jao just reminded me of its existence incidentally ;) 2021-05-03T15:33:19Z ChoHag: Yes you're a little dusty. 2021-05-03T15:33:24Z ManDay: we need an implementation which works well with non matching... [lambda {x) <+ x 3)> 2021-05-03T15:33:26Z dustyweb: ChoHag: heh ;) 2021-05-03T15:34:09Z ManDay: if you insist <> are not good for bracketing, that'd be fair 2021-05-03T15:34:21Z phillbush: ManDay: I just downloaded R7RS, gonna read it. But I think I still need an introductory book to get me into the whole scheme thing, understand the best programming practices, etc. 2021-05-03T15:34:23Z amirouche: except if you html 2021-05-03T15:34:31Z dpk: R6RS allowed [] interchangeably with () 2021-05-03T15:34:44Z dpk: R7RS goes back to just () and [] does not (yet) have any particular meaning 2021-05-03T15:35:25Z ManDay: dpk: did it? can you quote? 2021-05-03T15:35:39Z dpk: (i'm somewhat hoping we use them for flexvectors when we get to the lexical notation stage. that said, the point of flexvectors is their mutability, and literals aren't meant to be mutable anyway, so maybe not) 2021-05-03T15:35:43Z ManDay: phillbush: TSPL is pretty good imho 2021-05-03T15:36:20Z phillbush: ManDay: https://small.r7rs.org/wiki/FiveToSixToSeven/ Ctrl-F for bracket 2021-05-03T15:37:51Z phillbush: ManDay: I'm reading TSPL, but it uses a lot of R6RS-isms. 2021-05-03T15:37:57Z jcowan: There's a passage in CLtL on the importance of leaving some brackets for the user in systems that allow changing the lexical syntax 2021-05-03T15:38:27Z ChoHag: Eh unicode has dozens. 2021-05-03T15:39:51Z jcowan: But not easily typed 2021-05-03T15:40:05Z jcowan: See http://filonenko-mikhail.github.io/cltl2-doc/en/clmse112.html and search on the page for "xapping" 2021-05-03T15:40:12Z mdhughes: TSPL really works best used with Chez Scheme. 2021-05-03T15:40:42Z mdhughes: But some other Schemes allow [], like Chicken. 2021-05-03T15:41:15Z mdhughes: There's a patch for Gerbil to accept [] with a #lang flag, but it was sitting in a future branch last I checked. 2021-05-03T15:42:35Z mdhughes: Gauche also takes [] 2021-05-03T15:43:09Z dpk: mdhughes: [] is alternative notation for vectors in Gerbil iirc 2021-05-03T15:43:19Z ManDay thinks there are bigger problems than [] vs () 2021-05-03T15:43:23Z mdhughes: dpk: Yes, thus the #lang switch. 2021-05-03T15:43:29Z dpk: oh, no, it's lists 2021-05-03T15:43:35Z dpk: > '[1 2 3] 2021-05-03T15:43:35Z dpk: (1 2 3) 2021-05-03T15:43:36Z ChoHag: ManDay: But I want the bike shed to be red! 2021-05-03T15:43:50Z dpk: oh, balls, that's Gambit, not Gerbil 2021-05-03T15:44:00Z dpk facepalms and starts the right interpreter this time 2021-05-03T15:44:35Z mdhughes: It's *so* much nicer to read code written with [()] that… it's probably not a "won't use this impl", but it's a "find any other impl that'll do the job first" 2021-05-03T15:44:40Z dpk: right, [] in *Gerbil* is a list which evaluates to a list 2021-05-03T15:44:58Z dpk: [a b c] == (list a b c) 2021-05-03T15:45:05Z dpk: including evaluation of a, b, and c 2021-05-03T15:46:18Z ManDay: adding syntactic sugar at the cost of interoperability, yey... 2021-05-03T15:46:34Z dpk: welcome to Scheme ;-) 2021-05-03T15:46:39Z ChoHag: There's interoperability? 2021-05-03T15:46:44Z dpk: ^ 2021-05-03T15:46:53Z ManDay: being able to run the code in different impls? 2021-05-03T15:47:09Z ManDay: excuse my fancy words. i'm not a native speaker. 2021-05-03T15:47:19Z ManDay: ah oops 2021-05-03T15:47:26Z ManDay: you said "There's" not "What's" 2021-05-03T15:48:15Z phillbush: Ok, I'll read Teach yourself Scheme, then read R7RS, then move to SICP. 2021-05-03T15:48:16Z ManDay: "there was" (in a hypothetical past) 2021-05-03T15:48:17Z phillbush: I tried “The Little Schemer” But I didn't like the text Q&A-like structure. 2021-05-03T15:48:57Z ChoHag: I was quite frustrated when I started using scheme trying to write code which would work in all implementations without including masses of boilerplate, but they're all too unpredictably different. That's why I'm making my own. 2021-05-03T15:52:03Z mdhughes: https://xkcd.com/927/ 2021-05-03T15:52:23Z phillbush: mdhughes: I was thinking on that, lol. 2021-05-03T15:52:24Z ChoHag: I am aware of the irony. 2021-05-03T15:53:26Z ChoHag: If nothing else it's been a tremendously useful learning experience. 2021-05-03T15:53:30Z mdhughes: % brew info gerbil-scheme Poured from bottle on 2019-09-27 at 14:26:16 2021-05-03T15:53:44Z mdhughes: Uuuuugh. If I have to recompile things, I'd rather do nothing. 2021-05-03T15:54:37Z ChoHag: "Poured from bottle"? What is this? You write the games *in* the programming language. 2021-05-03T15:59:13Z mdhughes: homebrew is overly cutesy with the beer/cask/drink metaphor. I much prefer MacPorts, but some stuff is only in brew. 2021-05-03T15:59:52Z aeth: I came up with a clever, incompatible use for [] in my implementation. 2021-05-03T15:59:54Z aeth: mwahahaha 2021-05-03T16:00:18Z phillbush: I'll read the standard, wish me luck. Any tips for a C programmer trying to dig into the lisp world? 2021-05-03T16:00:54Z ChoHag: phillbush: Expect magic and handwavery. 2021-05-03T16:01:20Z ChoHag: Also, macros are not your enemy any more. 2021-05-03T16:01:30Z ManDay: i don't even have to open that xkcd link to know what it shows ^^ 2021-05-03T16:01:41Z ChoHag: Still confusing as fuck though if you're not careful. 2021-05-03T16:01:59Z phillbush: Should I stick with R7RS or R5RS? 2021-05-03T16:02:25Z ChoHag: R5 tends to have better implementations but the differences aren't all that great really. 2021-05-03T16:02:29Z aeth: Well, most Lisps don't even have an equivalent to C macros. When they do, they're probably called "reader macros" (e.g. Common Lisp) rather than normal syntactic macros (which can be hygienic or not) 2021-05-03T16:02:46Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-03T16:02:50Z ChoHag: Once you understand one you can refer to the other as though an API reference to see what functions are/aren't available. 2021-05-03T16:03:15Z ChoHag: The language itself didn't change, just what in C you'd think of as the standard library. 2021-05-03T16:03:38Z ChoHag: Modulo some details that don't matter, I expect. 2021-05-03T16:03:52Z Wezl: What's wrong with R5RS (why were R6 and R7 created?) 2021-05-03T16:04:00Z ChoHag: R6: MOAR FEATURES> 2021-05-03T16:04:06Z ChoHag: R7: Woah! Calm down. 2021-05-03T16:04:29Z Wezl: ... or maybe they weren't meant to replace eachother? 2021-05-03T16:04:46Z ChoHag: R6 was scheme's second-system. Forget that it exists. 2021-05-03T16:04:48Z mdhughes: A couple of the best impls are R6, and will be: Chez, Racket. Many are R5. R7 is barely working, Guile and Chibi? And Chibi's slow. 2021-05-03T16:05:40Z ChoHag: There's very little practical difference between r5 and r7. I forget which one I'm reading half the time. 2021-05-03T16:05:42Z aeth: Wezl: The main things that R7RS offer over R5RS are a standard way to define libraries and making some popular syntactic SRFIs core (I mean syntax stuff like #; rather than macros). The latter are kind of hard to add since you can't just load a library (unless you have reader macros, of course). 2021-05-03T16:05:58Z mdhughes: R6 is *fantastic*. It's just hated by lazy implementors who didn't want to do Unicode and sane exception handling. 2021-05-03T16:06:07Z Noisytoot: Doesn't R6RS also have a library system? 2021-05-03T16:06:11Z mdhughes: R6 added libraries. 2021-05-03T16:06:18Z aeth: R6RS goes a bit too far to the point that no implementation fully implements it. 2021-05-03T16:06:27Z aeth: I wouldn't call that lazy 2021-05-03T16:06:37Z mdhughes: They do implement it. 2021-05-03T16:06:39Z Noisytoot: Is it larger than Common Lisp? 2021-05-03T16:06:50Z ChoHag: I think R6 just mandated things too early, before exploration had found reasonably implementations. 2021-05-03T16:06:55Z mdhughes: Ha no, it's like 5% the size of Common LISP. 2021-05-03T16:06:56Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-05-03T16:07:30Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:08:12Z mdhughes: It all seems to run well enough in Chez, and Chez is so good Racket rehosted from a pile of C onto it. 2021-05-03T16:08:28Z Noisytoot: You wouldn't need to use brew/macports at all if you used GNU/Linux! 2021-05-03T16:08:47Z ChoHag: I didn't want to sign up for the lobotomy though. 2021-05-03T16:09:18Z mdhughes: Noisytoot: No, then I'd be using apt or whatever broken system the distro I was stuck on uses. All package systems suck. 2021-05-03T16:09:27Z Noisytoot: Guix is a bit better 2021-05-03T16:09:31Z ChoHag: No. 2021-05-03T16:09:34Z ChoHag: Every OS sucks. 2021-05-03T16:09:37Z aeth: mdhughes: Afaik, no implementation is 100% conforming with R6RS, but jcowan would know the details and if that's true 2021-05-03T16:10:02Z mdhughes: I have Linux (Raspbian) and mostly BSD systems (yay), and nothing doesn't suck. So on Mac at least I have a good workstation *and* a bad package system. 2021-05-03T16:10:10Z jcowan: I don't know; I assume if there are non-conformities they are bugs. 2021-05-03T16:10:35Z aeth: jcowan: I thought the exception hierarchy was the part that they tended to disagree with? 2021-05-03T16:10:41Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:10:43Z ChoHag: mdhughes: I use openbsd, so I have a bad workstation and a good-ish package system. 2021-05-03T16:10:50Z mdhughes: aeth: AFAIK everything in R6 works. You *also* need some impl-specific bits to hook into the OS, run a REPL, etc., but that's provided. 2021-05-03T16:11:48Z Noisytoot: Why is a mac a better workstation than OpenBSD? 2021-05-03T16:11:57Z ChoHag shrugs 2021-05-03T16:12:01Z ChoHag: I dunno. I never got on with macs. 2021-05-03T16:12:05Z jcowan: When people use "good", always ask "good for what?" 2021-05-03T16:12:12Z ChoHag: Tried since around the OS 7 days. 2021-05-03T16:12:32Z mdhughes: Sound works, graphics work, there's a ton of lovely native applications. Xcode makes it easy enough to run dtrace in a GUI that I don't have to argue with dtrace. 2021-05-03T16:12:59Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:13:00Z Noisytoot: It's nonfree, and sound and graphics also work on GNU/Linux 2021-05-03T16:13:12Z Noisytoot: Otherwise I couldn't see that message 2021-05-03T16:13:17Z mdhughes: Only thing I dislike is the filesystem, HPFS+ is flaky shit (so I have backups) and the new filesystem is unproven. 2021-05-03T16:13:24Z aeth: mdhughes: interesting, because I got the impression that 99% conformance is common, but there are some corners that were disputed, but I guess that's wrong 2021-05-03T16:13:31Z mdhughes: I do not care *in the least* about GNU religious ideology. 2021-05-03T16:13:36Z ChoHag: I tried at least 7, 9 and a few variants of X, and wanted to murder somebody within a fortnight. 2021-05-03T16:13:41Z jcowan: I find the Macbook Pro (only Mac I've ever used) and MacOSX (same) both aesthetically displeasing, but I have learned to live with them. "Life sucks and then you die" (as opposed to "Life's a beach and then you ascend." 2021-05-03T16:13:50Z jcowan: Then again, I don't like beaches much either 2021-05-03T16:14:07Z ChoHag: jcowan: No electricity, too much sun. 2021-05-03T16:14:26Z mdhughes: No electricity = no computers (once the batteries run down) = peace and quiet. 2021-05-03T16:14:36Z jcowan: Also too much sand and too much salt 2021-05-03T16:14:47Z mdhughes: Sand is dangerous, it can be made into new computers. 2021-05-03T16:14:56Z mdhughes: Salt's fine, tho, you can use it in tequila drinks. 2021-05-03T16:14:56Z Noisytoot: Some beaches have stones rather than sand 2021-05-03T16:15:05Z ChoHag: Can't get into old computers because of their dust-shield? 2021-05-03T16:15:14Z jcowan: Yes, I don't bring compuers outside (for values of "outside" > an urban park with benches) 2021-05-03T16:16:23Z ChoHag: The point of going outside is to get away from the computers. 2021-05-03T16:17:34Z Core9041 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:17:43Z ChoHag: Go out and get some fresh air and do some programming, then you can come back and get on with the coding. 2021-05-03T16:18:21Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T16:19:15Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T16:20:20Z abralek_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-03T16:21:18Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:22:54Z jcowan: “I haven’t seen much of the world, but cannot believe that any place is more beautiful than New England and the Middle Atlantic States, especially in the fall. I find plains dull, and mountains (real mountains) stark. What I want are hills, and trees, and green vistas, and set in the midst of it all, the glorious skyscrapers of Manhattan.”  —Isaac Asimov 2021-05-03T16:23:47Z jcowan: Note he doesn't mention beaches, though that area of the country has plenty on both the ocean and the Great Lakes. 2021-05-03T16:24:09Z jcowan: You can't take a portable manual typewriter to the beach either 2021-05-03T16:24:55Z ChoHag makes his face look like Tom Hanks and holds up a pencil slightly smugly. 2021-05-03T16:25:29Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-03T16:26:22Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:26:53Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:28:11Z jcowan: Halfway down the first page my fingers would fall off (also Asimov) 2021-05-03T16:29:08Z mhd2018 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:31:46Z mdhughes: I kinda hate cities and people (but like shopping), so anyplace as infested with Humans as the NE is no good for me. Probably my favorite place are the rocky beaches along Puget Sound. But it's murderously cold 9 months a year. 2021-05-03T16:35:28Z ChoHag: Cities suck, but they're useful. 2021-05-03T16:35:44Z ManDay: not inherently 2021-05-03T16:35:50Z ChoHag: They suck. 2021-05-03T16:35:59Z ChoHag: Too many people packed too closely. 2021-05-03T16:36:03Z ChoHag: Even towns are too dense. 2021-05-03T16:36:34Z ManDay: that's a red herring. the problem is not with cities having to many people, the problem is too many people being. 2021-05-03T16:36:46Z ManDay: consequently, you get cities 2021-05-03T16:37:12Z ChoHag: That's not inherent but I don't know if this is the place to continue this interesting topic. 2021-05-03T16:37:32Z ManDay: there is no topic which doesn't fit #scheme 2021-05-03T16:37:56Z ChoHag: Then I don't think the problem is too many people. They're badly organised. 2021-05-03T16:37:57Z ManDay: also, one of the rare days i talk to people these days, let's at least talk about something interesting 2021-05-03T16:38:02Z ChoHag: They should be more functional. 2021-05-03T16:38:35Z ManDay: that's inherent to people that they aren't :p 2021-05-03T16:38:50Z ManDay: so, accepting all the inherent properties, that doesn't leave many solutions 2021-05-03T16:40:27Z ChoHag: It means you have to accept that there's (a) state. 2021-05-03T16:41:00Z ChoHag: And people often get into one. 2021-05-03T16:41:38Z Core9041 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-03T16:41:49Z ChoHag: I think cities could work if they were more spaced out. If they let nature in and gave the place room to breathe. 2021-05-03T16:41:50Z abralek_ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:41:51Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:42:11Z ChoHag: Also I'm generally in favour of being spaced out. 2021-05-03T16:42:54Z ManDay: if you spread cities less densely, you consume the sourrouding . is either useful or occupied by... people 2021-05-03T16:43:06Z ManDay: problems ensue. 2021-05-03T16:43:29Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-03T16:43:32Z ChoHag: A number of humans necessarily require an acrage of land. That land doesn't have to be divided so unevenly. 2021-05-03T16:43:53Z ChoHag: It could be more JIT. 2021-05-03T16:44:09Z ChoHag: But that requires more overhead. 2021-05-03T16:44:30Z ManDay: you're mildly on the esoteric side of this debate... 2021-05-03T16:44:58Z ChoHag: Esoteric in what sense? 2021-05-03T16:45:30Z ManDay: i'm not sure I follow you. i'm just saying with every inch of this planet being under strain and desperately needed (forests, natural reserves) or occupied by people (farmland, villages), you can't just "space out" cities 2021-05-03T16:45:43Z ChoHag: Every inch of this planet is not under strain. 2021-05-03T16:45:45Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:45:51Z ManDay: oh you bet it is 2021-05-03T16:45:55Z ChoHag: Some concentrated corners are under strain. 2021-05-03T16:46:04Z ChoHag: The planet as a whole still barely notices we're here. 2021-05-03T16:46:17Z Zipheir: If only... 2021-05-03T16:46:19Z ManDay: i think we're done talking, lol 2021-05-03T16:46:20Z ChoHag: Despite ~20k years of genocide. 2021-05-03T16:46:51Z ChoHag: _As a whole_. 2021-05-03T16:47:07Z ChoHag: It's a big and complex (not complicated) system. 2021-05-03T16:47:21Z ChoHag: It's also complicated but that's another story. 2021-05-03T16:47:28Z Zipheir: Indeed, as a whole, it's not looking wonderful (at least for our form of life). 2021-05-03T16:47:40Z ChoHag: Oh yeah we're fucked. 2021-05-03T16:47:40Z Wezl: right, the center of the earth probably doesn't care 2021-05-03T16:47:58Z ManDay: yeah, if you're saying what Wezl says here than I agree 2021-05-03T16:48:10Z ChoHag: The planet's dealt with much worse than use though and shook it off like a bad coat. 2021-05-03T16:48:15Z ChoHag: s/use/us/ 2021-05-03T16:48:25Z ManDay: if we're talking atmosphere and ecosystem (anywhere!) then yes: the planet "notices" badly that "we" are here 2021-05-03T16:48:33Z ChoHag: So do we work with it or do we keep fighting it? 2021-05-03T16:48:43Z ChoHag: Because it'll win. 2021-05-03T16:49:09Z ManDay: yes, there will always be a rock rotating around the sun. relax, no need to worry then 2021-05-03T16:49:18Z ChoHag: It'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. -- Carlin. 2021-05-03T16:50:07Z ChoHag: So let's be clear. We're not fucking the planet. We're fucking us. 2021-05-03T16:51:08Z ManDay: you know there are other beings on this planet who suffer from "us", right? 2021-05-03T16:51:13Z ManDay: it's not just rock+humans 2021-05-03T16:51:25Z ChoHag: Oh god yes, and we're good at iy. 2021-05-03T16:51:30Z ChoHag: it 2021-05-03T16:51:44Z ChoHag: Did you know Australia used to have fauna? Then humans arrived. 2021-05-03T16:52:05Z ChoHag: Now it has spiders. 2021-05-03T16:52:36Z ChoHag: (Hyperbole, but I'm barely exaggerating) 2021-05-03T16:53:28Z ChoHag: OTOH, cows would be extinct if they weren't delicious. 2021-05-03T16:56:15Z evdubs__ is now known as evdubs 2021-05-03T16:56:58Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-03T16:59:33Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T17:00:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T17:01:09Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T17:02:17Z tdammers: fun fact though: all in all, the ecological footprint of a city is, on a per-capita basis, much much better than that of rural areas 2021-05-03T17:03:07Z ManDay: and here i was thinking the interesting part of the discussion had ended 2021-05-03T17:03:15Z ChoHag: Then the measurements must be bad. 2021-05-03T17:03:18Z ChoHag: We eat their food. 2021-05-03T17:03:34Z tdammers: stacking humans close together on top of one another does a great job at saving space, for starters. then, everything is nearby, so there's less travelling and commuting, and public mass transport is a viable option. the whole stacking business also means that less energy is needed to keep our living spaces heated and/or air conditioned, as the case may be 2021-05-03T17:03:35Z ManDay: i too think this may be a very single sided metric 2021-05-03T17:04:10Z tdammers: sure, a square kilometer of downtown Manhattan is worse for the local environment than a square kilometer of forest with six humans living in it 2021-05-03T17:04:24Z ManDay: you said per capita so that's ok 2021-05-03T17:05:15Z ManDay: but if we're comparing heads (pointing fingers at either the city or the rural folks), then lifestyle should be considered 2021-05-03T17:05:22Z tdammers: yes, exactly, and that's kind of the point. if we take the sheer number of us as a given, then putting as many of us in cities as possible arguably puts the least amount of stress on the planet's ecosystems 2021-05-03T17:05:49Z ChoHag: But it puts the most amount of stress on the ecosystems it does affect. 2021-05-03T17:05:50Z tdammers: of course equalizing living standards across the world would probably also help 2021-05-03T17:05:50Z ManDay: i'd suspect that the cumulative average effect of city citizen is worse than that of land-dwellers 2021-05-03T17:05:54Z Zipheir: Cities get a bad rap. Dislike of cities has a major part in sustaining entire political movements and genres of music! 2021-05-03T17:06:06Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-03T17:06:13Z ChoHag: As opposed to spreading the load throughout the whole system so that its impacts can be shared and minimised. 2021-05-03T17:06:50Z Zipheir: In theory. You need lots of cross-country infrastructure to support such decentralization. 2021-05-03T17:07:11Z tdammers: problem is, that infrastructure would probably contribute so much ecological strain that it wouldn't be worth it 2021-05-03T17:07:24Z ChoHag: More infrastructure == more overhead. 2021-05-03T17:07:41Z ChoHag: But in theory, more infrastructure == less local ecological impact. 2021-05-03T17:08:21Z ManDay: tdammers: yes, I'd agree. i'd be with ChoHag about reducing density in cities, but by reducing the planet's overall population, as I don't see any margin for spreading out cities 2021-05-03T17:08:41Z Zipheir: The discussion is way too general and vague to make resolution of that point possible. 2021-05-03T17:08:49Z ChoHag: The planet is fucking huge and more than big enough for us if we'd just stop consuming everything. 2021-05-03T17:09:10Z ManDay: Zipheir: i shall postpone any concrete plans for genonice for later... 2021-05-03T17:09:18Z ManDay: *genocide 2021-05-03T17:09:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-03T17:09:39Z ChoHag: Raising everybody out of poverty would basically solve the population "crisis" because reach people have fewer babies. 2021-05-03T17:09:53Z tdammers: "eat the rich", then? 2021-05-03T17:10:11Z ChoHag: And the crisis is decades away at best, modulo our fucking awful management of the planets resources, at best. 2021-05-03T17:10:29Z ManDay: ChoHag: although there are a few countries with reprod coeff <1 i don't think that's enough 2021-05-03T17:11:03Z tdammers: in a way, the mess started with the invention of agriculture 2021-05-03T17:11:17Z ChoHag: I think you missed the "modulo our fucking awful management of the planets resources". 2021-05-03T17:11:18Z _apg joined #scheme 2021-05-03T17:11:38Z ChoHag: tdammers: Not in a way. That was the thing. 2021-05-03T17:11:40Z ManDay: tdammers: no technology is too blame for the current state of affairs, only its application 2021-05-03T17:11:51Z ChoHag: But it also produced medicine and computers, so you take your chances. 2021-05-03T17:12:04Z ManDay: agriculture, if done properly, increases efficiency of ressource usage, so what's the complaint... 2021-05-03T17:12:13Z ManDay: s/too/to 2021-05-03T17:12:25Z ChoHag: ManDay: "if" 2021-05-03T17:12:32Z tdammers: agriculture creates different economics 2021-05-03T17:13:11Z ManDay: it may have been a trigger (I'm no historian, ofc), but markets develop either way 2021-05-03T17:13:30Z ManDay: you can't prevent the rise of capitalism and the free market by circumventing technologies 2021-05-03T17:13:49Z ChoHag: I think the consensus is that without agriculture there would be no civilisation. 2021-05-03T17:13:59Z ChoHag: And without beer there would be no agriculture. 2021-05-03T17:14:03Z ManDay: you'd make us all cave dwellers, madly reproducing and eventually destroying the planet by cave dweller means, the simple prehistoric ones 2021-05-03T17:14:06Z tdammers: fsvo "civilisation" 2021-05-03T17:14:13Z ChoHag: Beer then led to bread, and the rest is history. 2021-05-03T17:14:18Z tdammers: ManDay: that is provably false 2021-05-03T17:14:29Z ManDay: which part? 2021-05-03T17:14:40Z tdammers: the "madly reproducing and eventually destroying the planet" 2021-05-03T17:14:52Z ManDay: both of that? 2021-05-03T17:14:56Z tdammers: without agriculture, there is neither an incentive nor the possibility for this kind of growth 2021-05-03T17:14:56Z ChoHag: I think the madly part is ending. 2021-05-03T17:15:10Z ChoHag: Because as a species as a whole we're starting to notice wtf we're doing. 2021-05-03T17:15:17Z ChoHag: Maybe we're in time. I hope so. 2021-05-03T17:15:56Z ManDay: tdammers: i don't concur. no matter how much survival struggle the lack of agriculture would produce: the tendency remains towards larger societies. 2021-05-03T17:16:05Z tdammers: practically all known hunter-gatherer cultures have a very weak concept of "property", if any; which makes sense, because things you "claim" or "own" are mainly liabilities when you're nomadic, and carrying more than you need can very well kill you and your pack 2021-05-03T17:16:05Z ChoHag: Tendency. 2021-05-03T17:16:21Z ChoHag: But as I said, we're *starting* to notice wtf we're doing. 2021-05-03T17:16:29Z ChoHag: These sorts of changes take generations. 2021-05-03T17:16:39Z ManDay: tdammers: they'd still reproduce with a large coefficient... growing the tribe and such 2021-05-03T17:16:53Z tdammers: known hunter-gatherer cultures also all practice birth control, to limit the size of their group to what is manageable given their lifestyle. there is no benefit in numbers, having too many mouths to feed is, again, a liability 2021-05-03T17:16:54Z ChoHag: And so, I hope we're in time because we can steer this boat now but it ain't turning for decades. 2021-05-03T17:17:16Z ManDay: tdammers: that's new to me, but I believe you 2021-05-03T17:17:30Z ManDay: however, the entire premise is far fetched. you can't "prevent technologies" 2021-05-03T17:17:35Z ManDay: you need to deal with them 2021-05-03T17:17:51Z tdammers: of course. that's why I don't believe it'd be possible to go back to the pre-agricultural state 2021-05-03T17:17:54Z ChoHag: Nobody's trying to except Australia and America. 2021-05-03T17:18:51Z tdammers: agricultural societies displaced hunter-gatherers, not because the lifestyle is inherently better (it's not - agricultural societies have had shorter life expectancies and much worse health than hunter-gatherers until roughly the industrial revolution) 2021-05-03T17:19:11Z ChoHag: Because our food is more reliable and not riddled with diseases. 2021-05-03T17:19:14Z ChoHag: Except when it is. 2021-05-03T17:19:24Z tdammers: but they displaced them anyway, because 12 battle-hardened, well-trained hunters are still no match for 1000 starving farmers 2021-05-03T17:19:43Z ManDay: ah i have watched a documentation about that transition some time ago, yes, what you said 2021-05-03T17:19:47Z Zipheir: Or because the farmers plowed the hunting grounds. 2021-05-03T17:20:14Z tdammers: yes, they claimed their hunting grounds, plowed them, and killed anyone who tried to get near them that wasn't part of their group 2021-05-03T17:21:17Z ChoHag: Fun fact: Bronze age kingdoms seldom lasted more than a few generations. 2021-05-03T17:22:52Z tdammers: what's interesting is that while infant mortality was high in hunter-gatherer societies, those that made it to age 16 or so would have a good change of reaching their 50s and 60s; in early agricultural societies however, barely anyone made it past 40, they literally worked themselves to death, and malnutrition due to eating the same 5 crops year round didn't really help much either 2021-05-03T17:24:47Z ChoHag: They didn't work themselves to death. 2021-05-03T17:24:52Z ChoHag: They were worked to death. 2021-05-03T17:25:07Z ManDay: tdammers: I vaguely recall having heard something like that. I wish I had your memory, heh! 2021-05-03T17:26:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T17:27:06Z ChoHag: I read a while back how people were forced to grow wheat specifically because even though it's a shit crop, it's easy to deal with for tax purposes - you can't hide it, it turns gold when it's ready and soldiers can just turn up and take it, etc. 2021-05-03T17:32:37Z dieggsy: woah, some conversation today 2021-05-03T17:35:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-03T17:40:46Z tdammers: ChoHag: that was a slightly later stage, but it's fairly inevitable once you get the ball rolling, yes. 2021-05-03T17:41:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T17:43:48Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T17:43:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T17:44:37Z _apg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T17:48:35Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T17:50:14Z jcowan: Cities give you civilization. And privacy. (In a small town, everyone knows your business.) 2021-05-03T17:50:52Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-03T17:51:13Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T17:52:16Z evdubs_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-03T17:52:17Z jcowan: Chibi is meant to be compact, not slow 2021-05-03T17:53:26Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T17:53:41Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T17:54:50Z jcowan: The per capita consumption of gasoline in NYC (not just Manhattan) is equal to the p.c. consumption in the U.S. as a whole. A hundred years ago. 2021-05-03T17:58:08Z rj quit (Quit: rj) 2021-05-03T17:58:37Z mdhughes: At least one of those "p.c." should be "total"? 2021-05-03T17:59:15Z ManDay: yeah what is the p.c. consumption in the US as a whole? :-D 2021-05-03T18:06:38Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-03T18:07:35Z ManDay: this cryptic statement will haunt me... 2021-05-03T18:07:41Z ManDay: see you next time jcowan :-P 2021-05-03T18:07:45Z tdammers: I think what that means is that Manhattanites consumed as much gasoline per capita in 2020 as the average American consumed in 1920 2021-05-03T18:07:45Z ManDay: (gn all) 2021-05-03T18:07:58Z jcowan: Yes 2021-05-03T18:08:12Z ManDay: ah, got it! ty 2021-05-03T18:08:37Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-03T18:10:12Z rj quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-03T18:10:23Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-03T18:10:42Z rj quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-03T18:11:29Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-03T18:13:25Z rj quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-03T18:13:36Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-03T18:14:01Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-03T18:14:09Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-03T18:21:25Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-03T18:31:08Z Zipheir: phillbush: Re: your earlier question, I think that important rules of thumb for moving from C to Scheme are (a) think recursively, and (b) look for alternatives to load-store algorithms. 2021-05-03T18:33:58Z Zipheir: Oh, and there's no pointer-flavored call-by-reference, so if you want to write procedure that mutate their arguments, pass boxes. 2021-05-03T18:34:07Z Zipheir: s/procedure/procedures/ 2021-05-03T18:35:20Z jcowan: Or better, return multiple values. TMTOWTDI applies to Lisps even more than to Perl' 2021-05-03T18:36:19Z Zipheir: TMTOWTDI: Sorry, only 26^8 ELAs. :) 2021-05-03T18:37:11Z jcowan: Pronounced "tim-toady" 2021-05-03T18:42:04Z amirouche: how returning multiple values help? 2021-05-03T18:42:14Z amirouche: ah yes compared to C. Got it. 2021-05-03T18:43:11Z Zipheir: I'm also unclear on how multiple values is an alternative to mutative routines. 2021-05-03T18:43:23Z Zipheir: s/is/are/ 2021-05-03T18:43:45Z Zipheir: "returning multiple values is", there we go. 2021-05-03T18:44:33Z stultulo joined #scheme 2021-05-03T18:44:36Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T18:45:05Z dpk: Zipheir: typically C functions which want to do the equivalent of return multiple values will mutate pointers passed as arguments to them 2021-05-03T18:45:11Z dpk: s/typically/in some styles/ 2021-05-03T18:45:41Z SrPx: substring is slow, is there any alternative that is O(1)? i.e., one that just returns a view 2021-05-03T18:45:50Z Zipheir: SrPx: Use texts. 2021-05-03T18:45:56Z Zipheir: dpk: Ah, that makes sense. 2021-05-03T18:46:38Z SrPx: texts? is that on the spec? can't find anything about it? 2021-05-03T18:46:39Z Zipheir: SrPx: subtext may not be O(1), but it will copy only when appropriate https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-135/srfi-135.html 2021-05-03T18:47:08Z Zipheir: SrPx: It's R7RS-large. 2021-05-03T18:47:50Z SrPx: ah I see 2021-05-03T18:48:03Z SrPx: so not on chez scheme 2021-05-03T18:48:14Z SrPx: what is the difference? i thought string was represented as a buffer, not as a list 2021-05-03T18:48:32Z Zipheir: The SRFI 135 sample implementation is pretty portable. 2021-05-03T18:49:11Z dpk: SrPx: it is. [insert grumbling here] 2021-05-03T18:49:20Z Zipheir: SrPx: How it's implemented varies. The issue is the semantics; strings are mutable, so they have to be copied by operations like substring to ensure that later mutation won't affect two strings. 2021-05-03T18:49:39Z SrPx: hmm 2021-05-03T18:49:47Z Zipheir: This is not exactly a Good Thing, IMHO, since string mutation isn't very common these days. 2021-05-03T18:50:14Z dpk: well, i don't think there's any Scheme implementation that uses linked lists for strings internally 2021-05-03T18:50:27Z dpk: maybe some toy Schemes written in Haskell or similar. maybe 2021-05-03T18:51:47Z SrPx: I'm confused, if it is available on Chez Scheme why it says that "text?" is undefined? 2021-05-03T18:52:10Z Zipheir: SrPx: AFAIK Chez does not come with SRFI 135/(scheme text). 2021-05-03T18:52:16Z SrPx: :( 2021-05-03T18:52:26Z dpk: SrPx: i meant 'it is' to 'represented as a buffer, not as a list' 2021-05-03T18:52:33Z Zipheir: SrPx: If you really need the performance, go grab the sample implementation. 2021-05-03T18:52:33Z SrPx: I see 2021-05-03T18:52:47Z dpk: SRFI 140 would fix this, but looking at the votes it's had on previous ballots, i'm not holding out much hope for it making R7RS Large. *sigh* 2021-05-03T18:53:05Z SrPx: so do I just... migrate to Gambit? I'm compiling my functional language to Scheme 2021-05-03T18:53:44Z Zipheir: SrPx: Again, you can use the sample implementation on Chez, proabably with a very small porting effort. 2021-05-03T18:53:53Z Zipheir: *probably 2021-05-03T18:53:56Z SrPx: ah I see 2021-05-03T18:54:19Z Zipheir: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-135 2021-05-03T18:54:35Z Zipheir: Having ported it to CHICKEN (R5+), I can say it's pretty easy to port. 2021-05-03T18:55:52Z SrPx: hmm 2021-05-03T18:57:33Z SrPx: isn't there any way to just get a view of a substring of an official string though? :( 2021-05-03T18:57:33Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T18:58:07Z Zipheir: SrPx: Nothing which doesn't rely on implementation-specific string features. 2021-05-03T18:58:08Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-03T18:58:14Z SrPx: I see 2021-05-03T18:58:28Z amirouche: a view of a string does not make sens in scheme. 2021-05-03T18:58:37Z Zipheir: amirouche: Sure it does. 2021-05-03T18:58:44Z amirouche: if you want a range of a string, you need to pass around start and end index. 2021-05-03T18:58:57Z Zipheir: SrPx: You could use something like arrays https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-179/srfi-179.html 2021-05-03T18:59:28Z amirouche: What does view in the expression "view of a substring" ? 2021-05-03T18:59:39Z Zipheir: (SRFI 179's a lot to grok, but that provides the general concept SrPx's seems to be referencing.) 2021-05-03T18:59:58Z Zipheir: amirouche: A lightweight substring operation. 2021-05-03T19:00:10Z Zipheir: (i.e. no copying) 2021-05-03T19:00:45Z Zipheir: subtextual (SRFI 135) is precisely that. 2021-05-03T19:00:48Z amirouche: that is what I call a range or interval. 2021-05-03T19:01:05Z amirouche: but then you do not have a visual view of the substring, except with custom printers. 2021-05-03T19:01:22Z Zipheir: I don't think "view" was meant visually. 2021-05-03T19:01:45Z Zipheir: Maybe it was? I'm not sure now. 2021-05-03T19:03:22Z amirouche: how does SRFI 135 does without copying? there is structural sharing in srfi-135 (I never looked at the code?) 2021-05-03T19:03:52Z Zipheir: Yes. 2021-05-03T19:04:18Z Zipheir: Will Clinger did a great job on that library. 2021-05-03T19:05:00Z amirouche: oh it does indexing in O(1), I am wondering how. 2021-05-03T19:05:53Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-03T19:06:26Z amirouche: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-135/ 2021-05-03T19:07:07Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:07:59Z Zipheir: The spec does indeed require O(1) for textual-ref. 2021-05-03T19:10:02Z dpk: amirouche: bunch of ways to achieve that, like using UTF-32, or Python-style flexible representation, or UTF-8 and a table mapping character indexes to byte indexes 2021-05-03T19:11:08Z jcowan: dpk: The good and bad news is that I'm trying to write a successor to SRFI 140 that doesn't play fast and loose with existing semantics, and excluding the highly non-portable append! and replace! procedures in favor of linear-update equivalents. 2021-05-03T19:12:47Z amirouche: ty 2021-05-03T19:13:14Z dpk: i'm curious how kernel16 works 2021-05-03T19:13:17Z dpk pokes around 2021-05-03T19:13:35Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-03T19:14:19Z dpk: oh, it's not actually *strictly* O(1), heh 2021-05-03T19:14:28Z mdhughes: Chez does have (substring), it just works by making a copy. 2021-05-03T19:15:05Z Zipheir: dpk: No surprise there. 2021-05-03T19:15:14Z Zipheir: mdhughes: As the standard requires. 2021-05-03T19:15:19Z dpk: i guess technically it does count as O(1), but it scans up to 128 characters linearly) 2021-05-03T19:15:30Z Zipheir: O(128) = O(1) 2021-05-03T19:15:47Z dpk: well, O(n mod 128) 2021-05-03T19:16:26Z dpk: not a bad approach, all things considered 2021-05-03T19:16:50Z mdhughes: It would be nice to have an "I live dangerously" substring that just wraps start, end, and a pointer to the other string's contents. But that's not easily done with a primitive. 2021-05-03T19:17:19Z sp1ff joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:18:16Z Zipheir: SRFI 135 seems like the best of both worlds (parts I & II). 2021-05-03T19:18:43Z mdhughes: I always hear "Best of Both Worlds" as the one from Clerks. 2021-05-03T19:20:39Z mdhughes: And now I am really AFK. 2021-05-03T19:28:13Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-03T19:33:44Z SrPx: is there any default list to string function in r6rs? 2021-05-03T19:33:51Z jcowan: We can rename all the textual-* to string-*, and use a few dynamic-type tricks: e.g. if all the string args to map are mutable strings, so is the result, otherwise it is immutable. 2021-05-03T19:34:24Z SrPx: oh jesus, my bad - I swear I looked for list->string and couldn't find it 2021-05-03T19:35:29Z jcowan: Zipheir: ^^ 2021-05-03T19:36:14Z jcowan: THere is a small cost to do this, but it is compatible with the base library (modulo some redefinition warnings which you cna suppress by import-except) 2021-05-03T19:36:40Z jcowan: There are a couple of cases where that won't work, but very few 2021-05-03T19:36:53Z jcowan: Anyway, I'm working on a SRFI for this, since it is mostly renaming 2021-05-03T19:37:21Z dpk: what does read-string return? a mutable or immutable string? 2021-05-03T19:38:30Z dpk: and the string procedure? 2021-05-03T19:38:50Z dpk: admittedly string could return a mutable string and make me use an istring procedure or something, i wouldn't be too bothered 2021-05-03T19:38:53Z jcowan: string returns immutable. The I/O procedures remain unchanged 2021-05-03T19:39:06Z jcowan: s/im// 2021-05-03T19:39:20Z jcowan: It's annoying, and 135 and 140 don't do that, but it's backward compatible and that matters. 2021-05-03T19:41:05Z dpk: so read-string produces mstrings but read will produce istrings from string literals? 2021-05-03T19:43:33Z dpk: i don't think i'd mind having to use a new read-istring procedure, either, but it would be slightly more annoying than string (purely because string is never used) 2021-05-03T19:44:00Z dpk: then we also need utf8->istring etc, but that's also doable 2021-05-03T19:44:01Z dpk: hmmm 2021-05-03T19:44:09Z dpk: i think this approach could work 2021-05-03T19:46:13Z SrPx: hmm, is there any R6RS function to write a file, even if it is in a deep directory that doesn't exist (so it creates dirs recursively), and replacing if it already exists? 2021-05-03T19:46:26Z Zipheir: I'm not sure I understand the reasoning for having both istrings and texts. 2021-05-03T19:47:16Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:48:41Z Zipheir: SrPx: No way is there one procedure which does all of that. 2021-05-03T19:49:26Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T19:49:32Z dpk: i'm not aware of *any* programming language which has a procedure for that 2021-05-03T19:49:53Z Zipheir: RnRS doesn't have any notion of directories, AFAIK. 2021-05-03T19:49:55Z dpk: maybe Elisp, i've forgotten if using make-directory explicitly is required 2021-05-03T19:50:20Z SrPx: well fs.writeFileSync (node.js) does except for the "deep" part 2021-05-03T19:50:26Z SrPx: https://gist.github.com/MaiaVictor/55fd750cb6ce0b8fadb7d84eb1d6d95f 2021-05-03T19:50:46Z SrPx: is "(display text (open-output-file file))" async? seems like writing and reading just after outputs an empty file 2021-05-03T19:51:38Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T19:52:02Z Zipheir: Async in what way? 2021-05-03T19:52:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:52:11Z dpk: it's synchronous (Scheme doesn't have asynchronous IO of any kind), but it's probably not writing the data to the file until you flush or close it 2021-05-03T19:52:28Z Zipheir: Ah, yeah. 2021-05-03T19:52:56Z SrPx: ah, fair enough 2021-05-03T19:53:21Z jao quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:21Z actuallybatman quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:21Z imode quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:21Z hyiltiz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:21Z scm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:21Z choas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:21Z dsp quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:21Z elfenix quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:22Z sudden quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:22Z X-Scale quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:53:22Z joast quit (*.net *.split) 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z scm joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z choas joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z dsp joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z elfenix joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z sudden joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:14Z joast joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:17Z hyiltiz quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-05-03T19:55:26Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:26Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-05-03T19:55:26Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:55:53Z amirouche: SrPx: I stalked u! 2021-05-03T19:56:03Z SrPx: oh no 2021-05-03T19:56:11Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T19:56:13Z amirouche: are you also working on Kind? 2021-05-03T19:56:23Z SrPx: I created it! 2021-05-03T19:56:36Z nmeum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T19:56:38Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-03T19:57:14Z amirouche: is that the one with uwu-tech/Kind ? 2021-05-03T19:57:20Z amirouche: you two accounts? 2021-05-03T19:57:31Z nmeum joined #scheme 2021-05-03T19:57:58Z amirouche: oh ok, it just the files are looked are done by someone else. 2021-05-03T19:57:58Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-03T19:58:26Z amirouche: Good to learn JS programs deailing with proofs 2021-05-03T19:58:43Z SrPx: I don't understand the question? 2021-05-03T19:58:46Z SrPx: I have only one account 2021-05-03T19:58:47Z dpk: SrPx: as a point of style, using _ to separate words in procedure names is not Scheme (or any Lisp, afaik)'s style — we use - instead 2021-05-03T19:58:52Z amirouche: nvm, I was confused. 2021-05-03T19:59:51Z amirouche: SrPx: what is the scheme you use at the moment? You know the procedure index? 2021-05-03T20:00:47Z SrPx: dpk: I know, but these definitions are part of Kind's runtime; they'll appear on files compiled from Kind, which uses "_", so to keep it consistent I'm using "_" 2021-05-03T20:01:06Z SrPx: amirouche: I'm using ChezScheme, seems like the simplest one to target 2021-05-03T20:01:11Z SrPx: while also being very performant 2021-05-03T20:01:26Z amirouche: And the last question, what brings you to scheme world? 2021-05-03T20:01:44Z amirouche: SrPx: I agree. Here is the procedure index: https://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.5/summary.html#./summary:h0 2021-05-03T20:02:13Z amirouche: I started scheme to learn why JavaScript calls itself a Scheme. 2021-05-03T20:03:03Z SrPx: oh thank you so much, I didn't know that procedure index. Jesus that is great 2021-05-03T20:03:09Z SrPx: I was using R6RS specs 2021-05-03T20:03:28Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:03:33Z SrPx: amirouche: well JS functions are very similar to Scheme's 2021-05-03T20:03:38Z SrPx: so that's basically why, I guess 2021-05-03T20:04:05Z SrPx: it used to be rare for languages to have real high order functions with proper closures etc. 2021-05-03T20:04:15Z amirouche: that is true. 2021-05-03T20:04:32Z amirouche: but I do not know ruby. 2021-05-03T20:05:05Z SrPx: I love Scheme, it is the best untyped functional language by far 2021-05-03T20:05:33Z SrPx: simple, performant, well-specified etc., even though I don't have much direct experience with it, that has always been very clear from the outside 2021-05-03T20:05:48Z SrPx: and I can kind of confirm it now that I need to use it 2021-05-03T20:06:03Z amirouche: it is almost always systematic (better than python, I will not mention php) 2021-05-03T20:06:47Z amirouche: SrPx: My next project will target JS nodejs on the backend, browser vms. 2021-05-03T20:07:09Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T20:07:35Z amirouche: btw theorem proving is way too old in my memory, but maybe someone else will be interested https://github.com/uwu-tech/Kind/blob/master/THEOREMS.md 2021-05-03T20:07:37Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T20:07:43Z evdubs__ is now known as evdubs 2021-05-03T20:07:51Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:09:13Z dTal: Scheme isn't untyped though? 2021-05-03T20:09:51Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:09:54Z amirouche: SrPx: Welcome! I could add more links about related Scheme code to theorem proving, I guess you already busy. 2021-05-03T20:10:22Z amirouche: dTal: I think there is vocabular tornado in SE, everybody invent new type discipline and stick randomly 2021-05-03T20:10:40Z amirouche: I told someone C is untyped, they said it is strongly typed. 2021-05-03T20:10:45Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:10:55Z SrPx: no procedure to create a directory? hmm 2021-05-03T20:11:30Z SrPx: also to check if a file/directory exists? 2021-05-03T20:11:33Z amirouche: there is on 2021-05-03T20:12:02Z amirouche: file-directory? for the second 2021-05-03T20:12:24Z amirouche: mkdir to create a directory. 2021-05-03T20:12:51Z amirouche: file-exists? for files. 2021-05-03T20:13:04Z SrPx: oh, I was searching for directory 2021-05-03T20:13:11Z SrPx: shouldn't mkdir be named create-directory? 2021-05-03T20:13:16Z SrPx: mkdir looks inconsistent, but alright 2021-05-03T20:13:16Z amirouche: clearly, the unspecified part of R6RS, receive less RnRS love. 2021-05-03T20:13:44Z amirouche: SrPx: yep, historical reason in case of Scheme. 2021-05-03T20:13:55Z madage joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:14:37Z amirouche: btw, there is #chez channel, if you interested. Usually, there is much chatter here about deeep scheme or PL stuff or random stuff, and I use #chez then. 2021-05-03T20:14:51Z amirouche: and sometime it quiet for week :) 2021-05-03T20:15:19Z SrPx: thanks :) 2021-05-03T20:15:36Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:15:46Z SrPx: is there an equivalent of JS's split()? Like "foo/bar/tic/tac".split("/") == ["foo","bar","tic","tac"] 2021-05-03T20:15:58Z amirouche: SrPx: also look into https://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.5/foreign.html#./foreign:s4 2021-05-03T20:16:05Z amirouche: it can run some commands. 2021-05-03T20:16:21Z amirouche: such as (mkdir -p foo/bar/baz) 2021-05-03T20:16:30Z amirouche: such as (system "mkdir -p foo/bar/baz") 2021-05-03T20:16:46Z amirouche: SrPx: there is, but not in Scheme (cc gwatt) 2021-05-03T20:17:13Z amirouche: First, Second, Third I copy pasted it from stackoverwloe. Now I use a monorepo 2021-05-03T20:17:30Z SrPx: I see 2021-05-03T20:17:50Z amirouche: SrPx: the mono repository is at https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme 2021-05-03T20:18:04Z amirouche: but i moved most of it to https://github.com/arcfide/chez-srfi 2021-05-03T20:18:17Z amirouche: where you will better chance to find maintainer (or me) 2021-05-03T20:20:22Z amirouche: you might be lucky with https://akkuscm.org/ 2021-05-03T20:20:36Z amirouche: the maitainer is around. 2021-05-03T20:20:39Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T20:21:08Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:21:24Z amirouche: Half of arew-scheme is akku-r7rs, the other half is sample implementations from https://srfi.schemers.org/ 2021-05-03T20:21:52Z amirouche: Anyway, gotago dubito cogito... 2021-05-03T20:24:31Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:24:38Z notzmv is now known as Guest50015 2021-05-03T20:27:04Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-03T20:28:13Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-03T20:29:59Z zzappie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T20:30:20Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:32:21Z Zipheir: amirouche: C is most definitely on the "weak" end of typing. 2021-05-03T20:32:54Z Zipheir: amirouche: Original Dennis & Ken C can be seen as more or less untyped. 2021-05-03T20:33:12Z amirouche: they mean strong, in the sense the president is strong they can push the nuclear button 2021-05-03T20:33:19Z Zipheir: lol 2021-05-03T20:33:33Z Zipheir: Better not violate those constraints... 2021-05-03T20:33:36Z jcowan: B *was* untyped, so they fitted in just as much typing as was needed for byte-oriented machines, plus structs (which came later) 2021-05-03T20:33:51Z Zipheir: There we go. 2021-05-03T20:34:30Z amirouche: (: They know C, if they want can commit to Linux kernel :) 2021-05-03T20:34:41Z jcowan: I'm working in my copious spare time on an enhanced version of B called B2020, to provide C-level programming on 32/36-bit word-oriented machines 2021-05-03T20:35:23Z Zipheir: amirouche: In my book, any type system with implicit casts is "weak". 2021-05-03T20:36:14Z amirouche: I'am working in my copious spar imagination on an enchanced version of Scheme called ruse, provide Javascript ecosystem on any platform with a browser or nodejs. 2021-05-03T20:36:15Z jcowan: That's pretty restrictive, as it bans both subtype to supertype coercion and mixed-mode arithmetic 2021-05-03T20:36:18Z Zipheir: (Well, not including implicit casting of numeric types, which many otherwise-"strong" languages have.) 2021-05-03T20:36:24Z jcowan snickers 2021-05-03T20:36:35Z Zipheir: Yeah, yeah. :) 2021-05-03T20:36:42Z SrPx: okay here are the set_file, get_file primitives of my runtime, let me know if there is anything wrong / suspicious about the code :) 2021-05-03T20:36:47Z SrPx: https://gist.github.com/MaiaVictor/c544c06b4a7995e6485162f74ba32271 2021-05-03T20:37:39Z SrPx: I found some things weird, like the fact we can't access previously defined variables inside the definitions section of a let block 2021-05-03T20:38:04Z amirouche: SrPx: use define inside define ;) 2021-05-03T20:38:13Z amirouche: or wrap with begin. 2021-05-03T20:38:18Z SrPx: is that like a let? 2021-05-03T20:38:22Z jcowan: BUt seriously, I don't see anything wrong with languages with implicit coercions in general. Auto-unboxing of unboxed types, for instance 2021-05-03T20:38:24Z SrPx: I thought define set global defs 2021-05-03T20:38:48Z amirouche: define inside define only touch the current scope 2021-05-03T20:38:54Z Zipheir: amirouche: ? 2021-05-03T20:39:04Z Zipheir: SrPx: You don't need the begin in set_file. 2021-05-03T20:39:14Z amirouche: (define a 42) (let () (define a 101) (display a)) will display 101 2021-05-03T20:39:23Z SrPx: Zipheir: true! removed it 2021-05-03T20:39:38Z Zipheir: SrPx: Consider *not* using recursion in read_chars_from_port, if the number of chars isn't bounded. 2021-05-03T20:39:38Z SrPx: amirouche: that sounds much less verbose than a let, then 2021-05-03T20:39:40Z jcowan: See http://dotty.epfl.ch/docs/reference/contextual/conversions.html (note that this is for Scala 3, which is almost, but not quite, entirely incompatible with Scala 2) 2021-05-03T20:39:52Z SrPx: Zipheir: how? 2021-05-03T20:40:00Z amirouche: SrPx: let is more... optimized I think, it helps to read the code too. 2021-05-03T20:40:07Z SrPx: what should I use for the loop? 2021-05-03T20:40:18Z SrPx: if I understand right I need to read chars until I find eof 2021-05-03T20:40:33Z SrPx: amirouche: hmm 2021-05-03T20:40:34Z Zipheir: SrPx: You can use a tail-loop, then reverse the resulting string. I think I'd prefer just to read a bounded number of characters. 2021-05-03T20:41:04Z Zipheir: (Either way, without a bound it'll blow up the heap if you've got a massive file.) 2021-05-03T20:41:05Z SrPx: Zipheir: hmm but I don't know how many chars I must read, except if I have the file's size? 2021-05-03T20:41:33Z Zipheir: SrPx: Can you read a line at a time? 2021-05-03T20:41:46Z SrPx: no, it can be any file. it is a generic get_file function 2021-05-03T20:42:00Z Zipheir: SrPx: Another good option is to read lazily. 2021-05-03T20:42:01Z SrPx: I mean I could if I knew the length of each line 2021-05-03T20:42:41Z amirouche: SrPx: your code will work fine, it is not the best scheme code. 2021-05-03T20:42:54Z SrPx: nah I need to be strict here for a variety of reasons. I'll convert to a tail call. but yea ideally I wish Scheme just gave me a `file->string` function. I highly suspect reading char by char like that will be inefficient 2021-05-03T20:43:27Z Zipheir: It'll work just fine for early-stage purposes. 2021-05-03T20:43:58Z amirouche: make it work, measure, make it fast. 2021-05-03T20:44:03Z Zipheir: SrPx: How could you get a "better" file->string function? 2021-05-03T20:44:17Z Zipheir: The options are simply (a) read bounded, or (b) read lazily. 2021-05-03T20:44:26Z amirouche: with a named let (or fold?) with revert in the mix? 2021-05-03T20:44:38Z amirouche: s/revert/reverse/ 2021-05-03T20:44:58Z Zipheir: amirouche: How so? 2021-05-03T20:44:58Z amirouche: or read line by line, but.. 2021-05-03T20:45:16Z amirouche: I need to dubito 2021-05-03T20:45:17Z SrPx: but I can't read line by line since I don't know the size of each line 2021-05-03T20:45:31Z amirouche: the end of the line is #\newline 2021-05-03T20:46:02Z SrPx: yes but I still need to read char by char til I reach newline 2021-05-03T20:46:07Z SrPx: no different from reading char by char til I reach eof 2021-05-03T20:46:20Z amirouche: but if the file is not big, you read it in one go tail-rec style, then reverse the list and get the content (list->string (reverse lst)) 2021-05-03T20:46:41Z amirouche: SrPx: there is no helper with Chez for that. 2021-05-03T20:46:41Z SrPx: yes that's what I'm doing now 2021-05-03T20:47:07Z amirouche: that looks "crazy" but that what people here are working on :) 2021-05-03T20:47:33Z Zipheir: True. Line input isn't necessarily any more bounded than whole-file. 2021-05-03T20:47:37Z amirouche: 1 year ago, there was no SRFI for JSON :') 2021-05-03T20:48:16Z amirouche: Some scheme had it for some time before tho.. 2021-05-03T20:48:43Z amirouche: SrPx: otherwise, try guile. 2021-05-03T20:48:45Z SrPx: it is okay, I can write the code, I just worry that there isn't much how to improve reading whole files with primitives we have. surely building a list with each character will be massively worse than JS's fs.readFile functions 2021-05-03T20:49:24Z SrPx: anyway it is tail recursive now at least https://gist.github.com/MaiaVictor/6d050d9445ff432d0b7a0a2eb7a8cd9b 2021-05-03T20:49:39Z Zipheir: Well, what does fs.readFile do? 2021-05-03T20:50:32Z SrPx: fs.readFile("foo.txt") does what you expect, it reads "foo.txt" and returns a Buffer32 with the whole file contents. it is very fast 2021-05-03T20:50:36Z SrPx: haskell has something equivalent 2021-05-03T20:50:50Z SrPx: reading char by char and building a linked list *will* be massively slower 2021-05-03T20:50:51Z amirouche: Like Zipheir said, it is better to start with that, see where the bottle neck is, and try to fix. It might be in the reading procedure, but then you would need to parse the file lazily. 2021-05-03T20:50:59Z Zipheir: That doesn't explain why it's fast. 2021-05-03T20:51:27Z SrPx: it is fast precisely because it doesn't need to build a linked list and alloc memory for each node 2021-05-03T20:51:51Z SrPx: reading a whole buffer from the disk is fast, allocating a linked list for each char of a huge file is slow 2021-05-03T20:52:09Z SrPx: that's holds in any modern computer 2021-05-03T20:52:11Z SrPx: that* 2021-05-03T20:52:29Z amirouche: you can speed up with parsing one char at a time, if you plan to parse the file. 2021-05-03T20:53:06Z Zipheir: SrPx: It depends entirely on how I/O is implemented. 2021-05-03T20:53:40Z amirouche: for instance cpython, open().read() is completly implemented with C. 2021-05-03T20:53:54Z amirouche: I am not sure how they represent strings tho 2021-05-03T20:53:58Z Guest51907 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:54:14Z Guest51907 left #scheme 2021-05-03T20:54:18Z Zipheir: But char-at-a-time will likely be plenty performant for working things out. 2021-05-03T20:54:34Z amirouche: and it is true it is fast compared to Chez, but even with that Chez beats Python in the whole program. 2021-05-03T20:55:32Z amirouche: Because my program spend 2s instead 1s to read the file then 8 second to the computation, and python takes well. 18s 2021-05-03T20:55:33Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T20:56:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:56:50Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-03T20:56:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-03T20:57:11Z amirouche: SrPx: e.g. generators with Chez are super fast, compared to JS generators. 2021-05-03T20:58:55Z SrPx: amirouche: I mean beating Python is like claiming your car beats a turtle, it doesn't make me any more likely to buy it :P 2021-05-03T20:59:24Z amirouche: it is sligtly faster than PyPy and as fast as C 2021-05-03T20:59:36Z Zipheir: As always, I'd suggest it's a matter of how fast you want something specific to run. 2021-05-03T20:59:56Z SrPx: I don't think it will be *terribly* slow 2021-05-03T21:00:09Z amirouche: but the confort of programming is much better than C / Python / JavaScript 2021-05-03T21:00:23Z amirouche: even without traceback as good as python or js 2021-05-03T21:00:31Z SrPx: but since what I'm doing involves reading thousands of medium/large files I'd be happy to find a more direct solution that doesn't require building a linked list 2021-05-03T21:00:37Z SrPx: I'll leave it as a question on SO: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/67375744/is-it-possible-to-load-an-entire-file-from-disk-efficiently-in-scheme-r6rs 2021-05-03T21:00:38Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/CvFYzRp94o 2021-05-03T21:00:45Z SrPx: someone may have an idea 2021-05-03T21:00:55Z Zipheir: Memory mapping, or, again, lazy reading. 2021-05-03T21:01:08Z amirouche: That XY program, you need to explain what you do with the file :) 2021-05-03T21:01:13Z SrPx: lazy reading doesn't give you a string! 2021-05-03T21:01:40Z amirouche: I tried all the possibilities with Chez. 2021-05-03T21:01:50Z amirouche: mmap is not as faster as lazy reading. 2021-05-03T21:02:01Z Zipheir: SrPx: What exactly do you want? A Scheme string is strict, so there's no way around reading the entire file. 2021-05-03T21:02:10Z SrPx: anyway it works right now so it is fine - I'll move on with other parts of the runtime and benchmark/optimize that procedure later 2021-05-03T21:02:21Z amirouche: :) 2021-05-03T21:02:26Z SrPx: Zipheir: the problem isn't reading the entire file, the problem is building an intermediate linked list! 2021-05-03T21:02:47Z amirouche: that is what other programming language like C do, but in C / C++ 2021-05-03T21:02:47Z SrPx: bad: file -> huge linked list on heap -> compact string 2021-05-03T21:02:53Z SrPx: ideal: file -> compact string 2021-05-03T21:03:09Z amirouche: I mean like Javascript do, 2021-05-03T21:03:13Z amirouche: sorry! 2021-05-03T21:03:14Z Zipheir: SrPx: I'm suggesting you haven't been clear on what this "compact string" idea is. 2021-05-03T21:03:33Z SrPx: Zipheir: the `string` type on R6RS, what you get after you call `list->string` 2021-05-03T21:03:34Z Zipheir: SrPx: A stream of characters costs very little. 2021-05-03T21:03:47Z SrPx: allocating a linked list for each char costs a lot 2021-05-03T21:03:55Z Zipheir: SrPx: Which is why you use a stream. 2021-05-03T21:04:10Z SrPx: line 11 of https://gist.github.com/MaiaVictor/6d050d9445ff432d0b7a0a2eb7a8cd9b 2021-05-03T21:04:20Z SrPx: the accumulated parameter of read_chars_from_port_rev 2021-05-03T21:04:20Z Zipheir: It's trivial with SRFI 127: (generator->lseq read-char) 2021-05-03T21:04:37Z SrPx: but hey it is ok 2021-05-03T21:04:40Z SrPx: I'll get back to this later 2021-05-03T21:07:52Z belmarca8 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T21:11:23Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T21:11:46Z SrPx: is there an "string-join" function (that intercalates a separator) or do I need to build my own? 2021-05-03T21:12:13Z SrPx: `(string-join (cons "foo" (cons "bar" (cons "tic" '()))) ";") ~> "foo;bar;tic"` 2021-05-03T21:13:22Z Zipheir: SrPx: There is, in each of the various string libraries. I don't know which one Chez uses. 2021-05-03T21:13:38Z SrPx: any idea what it could be called? 2021-05-03T21:14:31Z Zipheir: Hmm, does Chez not come with *any* SRFIs? 2021-05-03T21:14:57Z Zipheir: The canonical options are SRFI 162 (or SRFI 13, pre-R7RS) and SRFI 130. 2021-05-03T21:15:52Z Zipheir: https://github.com/chclock/srfi includes SRFI 13. 2021-05-03T21:17:41Z TCZ is now known as figurine 2021-05-03T21:21:32Z Zipheir: I wonder if the Chez developers have some issue with the SRFI process. It's rare to see a long-established Scheme with zero SRFI support. 2021-05-03T21:22:15Z SrPx: :( 2021-05-03T21:22:51Z Zipheir: But there's the chez-srfi repo I linked above, at least. 2021-05-03T21:24:15Z SrPx: problem is I can't really use these 2021-05-03T21:24:27Z SrPx: since that will greatly increase the size of the compiled files 2021-05-03T21:24:37Z jcowan: i think they just don't care 2021-05-03T21:24:39Z SrPx: I'm trying to generate self-contained .scm files 2021-05-03T21:24:55Z jcowan: Zipheir: And there are no canonical options! 2021-05-03T21:26:04Z Zipheir: s/canonical/customary/ 2021-05-03T21:26:44Z jcowan: Not even. On Chez it's 130, and on Kawa it's 140. This must be fixed. 2021-05-03T21:27:22Z SrPx: is it okay to move a define to inside another to have a "local function"? or will it change the compiled output and cause potential performance issues? 2021-05-03T21:27:40Z Zipheir: jcowan: Ah, hmm. 2021-05-03T21:28:06Z Zipheir: SrPx: Internal define works fine. It's equivalent to letrec*, as of R7RS. 2021-05-03T21:28:15Z SrPx: okay ty! 2021-05-03T21:28:16Z jcowan: And R6RS too 2021-05-03T21:28:47Z Zipheir: (SICP makes *extensive* use of internal defines, probably before most Schemes had them.) 2021-05-03T21:28:55Z Zipheir: s/makes/made/ 2021-05-03T21:31:15Z jcowan: Internal definitions go back to R2 (1985), though the name letrec* and the clear understanding of the difference between letrec and letrec* does not. 2021-05-03T21:31:19Z Zipheir: (1985. I'm probably wrong about that.) 2021-05-03T21:31:43Z jcowan: Earlier versions of Chicken implemented internal defines as letrec. 2021-05-03T21:31:58Z Zipheir: So SICP Scheme would have been R2RS compliant . 2021-05-03T21:34:01Z jcowan: Pretty close, as MIT Scheme was a major contributor to it. 2021-05-03T21:34:38Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-05-03T21:34:56Z jcowan: R2 had #!true, #!false, and #!nil (synonymous with ()) 2021-05-03T21:35:00Z jcowan: s/nil/null 2021-05-03T21:43:34Z Guest50015 is now known as notzmv 2021-05-03T21:44:24Z figurine quit (Quit: ...) 2021-05-03T21:44:29Z jcowan: dpk: String literals are mutable-but-an-error-to-mutate 2021-05-03T21:45:03Z jcowan: So they are immutable, but there is no way to find out whether they are mutable or immutable, so a function accepting either will treat them as mutable. 2021-05-03T21:45:28Z jcowan: (I mean, you could try to mutate them, but that gets you into a big mess with condition values.) 2021-05-03T21:53:43Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T21:53:53Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-03T21:54:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T21:57:44Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T21:58:07Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-05-03T21:59:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-03T22:04:45Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T22:07:10Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-03T22:07:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-03T22:15:14Z logand``` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-03T22:15:15Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-03T22:15:32Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-03T22:21:07Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-05-03T22:21:47Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-03T22:31:38Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-03T22:32:15Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-03T22:46:14Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T22:48:26Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T22:51:32Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T22:56:02Z rj quit (Quit: rj) 2021-05-03T22:56:19Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-03T22:59:17Z rj quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-03T23:00:03Z irc_user quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-03T23:10:24Z SrPx: hey guys, "get-string-all" does what I wanted! it converts all chars in a port to a string efficiently. no need to get char by char myself 2021-05-03T23:10:25Z SrPx: neat! 2021-05-03T23:10:48Z SrPx: it is on the procedure index, as replied on stack overflow 2021-05-03T23:10:53Z SrPx: glad I asked 2021-05-03T23:11:58Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-03T23:14:25Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-03T23:18:49Z Zipheir: How is that any different? 2021-05-03T23:19:20Z Zipheir: "get-string-all reads (as if with get-char) all of the characters available before the port is at end of file and returns a string containing these characters." And get-char is, of course, read-char. 2021-05-03T23:20:58Z Zipheir: I continue to think that "efficiently" is being used in a cargo-cultish sense. 2021-05-03T23:25:52Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-03T23:26:31Z SrPx: I suppose it is optimized by the compiler to just read the buffer in bulk since it is a primitive? It would be stupid not to. But who knows 2021-05-03T23:26:44Z SrPx: Is there a way to read a line? Like scanf? I've been googling and searching for a while and found nothing 2021-05-03T23:26:56Z Zipheir: read-line 2021-05-03T23:27:41Z Zipheir: That's actually analogous to (POSIX) getline, as it doesn't do formatted input. 2021-05-03T23:29:33Z phillbush: Oh, nice: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-216/ 2021-05-03T23:29:36Z SrPx: variable read-line isn't bound 2021-05-03T23:29:43Z SrPx: damn I'm getting sad about choosing chez 2021-05-03T23:29:44Z SrPx: :( 2021-05-03T23:30:22Z Zipheir: I guess Chez calls it get-line. 2021-05-03T23:34:57Z SrPx: wait but get-line reads a line from a port, no? 2021-05-03T23:35:08Z SrPx: ah you mean I can make a port with stdin? 2021-05-03T23:35:09Z SrPx: let me see 2021-05-03T23:35:41Z Zipheir: In the absence of a port argument, the current input port (i.e. stdin) is used. 2021-05-03T23:35:50Z Zipheir: At least that's read-line. 2021-05-03T23:36:07Z SrPx: nope, it demanded an argument. but `(current-input-port)` worked! 2021-05-03T23:36:31Z Zipheir: Good enough! 2021-05-03T23:38:23Z SrPx: ty (= 2021-05-03T23:48:53Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-03T23:52:26Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-03T23:52:43Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-03T23:54:00Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-03T23:54:01Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-03T23:54:01Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-03T23:54:33Z __anb is now known as _anb 2021-05-03T23:56:39Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-05-04T00:02:18Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-04T00:05:08Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T00:27:23Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-04T00:53:35Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T00:54:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T00:55:23Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T00:56:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-04T00:56:40Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-04T00:56:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-04T00:59:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T01:06:03Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T01:07:17Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-04T01:07:17Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-04T01:07:17Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-04T01:11:16Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-04T01:20:32Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-04T01:26:15Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-05-04T01:28:00Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-04T01:33:33Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T01:36:25Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T02:03:58Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-04T02:09:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T02:09:12Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-04T02:09:54Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-04T02:13:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T02:22:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T02:22:38Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T02:24:03Z SrPx: "The most important assistance is to avoid the use of top-level (interaction-environment) bindings. (...) It cannot do any of this with top-level variable bindings, since the top-level bindings can change at any time (...). Fortunately, it is easy to restructure a program to avoid top-level bindings. This is naturally accomplished for portable code by placing the code into a single RNRS top-level program." 2021-05-04T02:24:10Z SrPx: From Chez Scheme docs 2021-05-04T02:24:19Z SrPx: does that mean I must make my entire program a big let-block? 2021-05-04T02:24:27Z SrPx: or is "define" fine? 2021-05-04T02:24:54Z SrPx: or does it mean I just need to wrap a "begin" around all defines? 2021-05-04T02:26:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T02:26:16Z SrPx: https://www.rose-hulman.edu/class/cs/csse304/202120/Resources/Scheme/csug9_5.pdf 2021-05-04T02:28:17Z theca joined #scheme 2021-05-04T02:33:11Z srandon111 left #scheme 2021-05-04T02:33:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-04T02:35:43Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-04T02:47:16Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T02:49:26Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T03:01:44Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T03:01:50Z irc_user quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-04T03:03:04Z scm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-04T03:03:26Z theca quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-04T03:04:06Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T03:05:46Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-04T03:08:14Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T03:17:21Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-04T03:28:22Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-04T03:36:34Z SrPx: can I get a stack trace on runtime errors? 2021-05-04T03:57:00Z cjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-04T04:05:42Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-05-04T04:05:51Z Zipheir: Weird. I've never heard of avoiding top-level bindings. 2021-05-04T04:13:07Z SrPx: some function is calling a function "foo" with an argument of the wrong type, which is causing a runtime error. how do I know which function called "foo" incorrectly? 2021-05-04T04:13:21Z SrPx: I've been trying to do that for the last 40 minutes :( 2021-05-04T04:13:24Z SrPx: traced the whole program 2021-05-04T04:13:36Z SrPx: I just need to see the stack trace when the program crashes 2021-05-04T04:14:02Z SrPx: or at the very least be able to detect which function called "foo" with the wrong argument 2021-05-04T04:14:04Z Zipheir: All I can suggest is "print statements and hard thinking". (Kernighan?) 2021-05-04T04:14:46Z SrPx: this is a huge (8000+ LOC) compiled output with thousands of functions that use "foo" 2021-05-04T04:14:54Z SrPx: one of them is calling it with the wrong arguments 2021-05-04T04:14:58Z SrPx: ... :( 2021-05-04T04:15:07Z klovett_ is now known as klovett 2021-05-04T04:15:07Z SrPx: I just need to find the line that calls it with the wrong argument 2021-05-04T04:16:39Z Zipheir: SrPx: It's not really possible for me to help unless you can provide a paste of the errors or some other useful info. 2021-05-04T04:17:04Z SrPx: so in short, there is no way to, inside a function, detect its callee? 2021-05-04T04:17:32Z Zipheir: No. 2021-05-04T04:18:07Z SrPx: really? 2021-05-04T04:18:11Z SrPx: so, `(define (foo x y) (+ x y)) (define (bar) (foo "aaa" "bbb")) (display (bar))` 2021-05-04T04:18:25Z Zipheir: Although Chez might provide some kind of trace feature. 2021-05-04T04:18:25Z SrPx: this program crashes with `Exception in +: "aaa" is not a number` 2021-05-04T04:18:38Z Zipheir: Indeed it would. 2021-05-04T04:18:47Z SrPx: there is no way to ask Scheme to tell me who called "foo" (i.e., in this case, bar)? 2021-05-04T04:19:06Z SrPx: when it crashes, I mean 2021-05-04T04:19:33Z Zipheir: What do you think? This requires introspection of the call stack. That's metalinguistic. 2021-05-04T04:20:06Z siraben: Doesn't guile or chez give backtraces? 2021-05-04T04:20:11Z siraben: well, at least at the REPL 2021-05-04T04:20:35Z Zipheir: SrPx: What you can do is give foo an additional string parameter which the caller uses to identify itself. 2021-05-04T04:21:04Z SrPx: I'm doing that right now, altering my compiler to pass an identifier of the callee 2021-05-04T04:21:05Z SrPx: but jesus 2021-05-04T04:21:54Z Zipheir: Among other things: Welcome to dynamic typing. 2021-05-04T04:22:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T04:25:32Z Zipheir: (Finding type errors in Scheme programs sucks.) 2021-05-04T04:27:25Z siraben: Zipheir: what?!? you have to do REAL dynamic typing like Alan Kay! https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtVWD9YXAAM5D_B?format=png 2021-05-04T04:27:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T04:28:11Z siraben: it does bite badly in situations like what SrPx is facing, I agree. 2021-05-04T04:29:36Z Zipheir: lol, I like the Alan Kay reference. 2021-05-04T04:31:40Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-05-04T04:37:23Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-04T04:39:52Z abralek_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T04:43:21Z SrPx: I mean I do come from JavaScript as my main language, but no stack traces on runtime errors is new to me. Makes no sense, shouldn't be hard to at least make some kind of global decorator that passes a stack of callers to all define'd functions 2021-05-04T04:43:57Z SrPx: I spent 1 hour solving this bug, 97% was finding which function called `foo` incorrectly. As soon as I found it I knew what the problem was 2021-05-04T04:44:22Z SrPx: but now everything works and I can sleep 2021-05-04T04:44:24Z SrPx: uff 2021-05-04T04:44:56Z Zipheir: You might try a Scheme with better stack traces, I suppose. Guile and CHICKEN seem to provide useful info. 2021-05-04T04:45:38Z SrPx: good to know 2021-05-04T04:58:19Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-04T05:06:38Z SrPx: the good news is the Kind->Scheme compiler is done! \o 2021-05-04T05:07:07Z SrPx: it is capable of type-checking the implementation of Kind in 30s, just a little bit more time than JS, even though it is massively less optimized 2021-05-04T05:07:17Z SrPx: extremely encouraging result 2021-05-04T05:07:34Z SrPx: that means we have a full dependently typed proof language embedded in Scheme (: 2021-05-04T05:07:47Z SrPx: and we'll soon finally be able to get rid of JS and its stack overflows in our type checker 2021-05-04T05:07:48Z SrPx: yay 2021-05-04T05:07:55Z SrPx: great great 2021-05-04T05:08:00Z SrPx: tomorrow I'll focus in optimizations 2021-05-04T05:08:21Z SrPx: is there any benchmarking tool that measures how much time was spent on each function? 2021-05-04T05:14:57Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-04T05:25:31Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-04T05:26:46Z merazi joined #scheme 2021-05-04T05:33:22Z merazi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-04T05:35:12Z SrPx: wow very nice profiler on Chez Scheme 2021-05-04T05:35:14Z SrPx: generates pretty htmls 2021-05-04T05:35:23Z SrPx: i liek 2021-05-04T05:38:09Z Zipheir: SrPx: Interesting. Is there a language spec somewhere? 2021-05-04T05:38:46Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-04T05:39:06Z mns quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-04T05:40:54Z cjb quit 2021-05-04T05:41:55Z mns joined #scheme 2021-05-04T05:45:55Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-04T05:50:56Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T05:51:35Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-04T06:15:49Z cer-0 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-04T06:17:18Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-04T06:18:50Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-04T06:23:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T06:28:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-04T06:31:41Z siraben: SrPx: oh, what's the Kind language? 2021-05-04T06:32:23Z siraben: Zipheir: seems to be https://github.com/uwu-tech/Kind 2021-05-04T06:33:04Z siraben: Interesting to use JS as an implementation language 2021-05-04T06:47:52Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T07:08:07Z skapata quit (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the IRC world.) 2021-05-04T07:12:36Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-04T07:20:11Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-04T07:20:57Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-04T07:22:07Z amirouche: SrPx: for timing functions look at https://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.5/system.html#./system:s243 and the profiler 2021-05-04T07:22:31Z SrPx: JS is not the implementation language 2021-05-04T07:22:37Z SrPx: just the back-end 2021-05-04T07:22:50Z SrPx: the language is implemented and specified in itself 2021-05-04T07:25:55Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-04T07:26:32Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-04T07:27:52Z srandon111 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T07:31:15Z amirouche: There is no profile with Chez. 2021-05-04T07:31:23Z amirouche: s/profile/profiler/ 2021-05-04T07:31:50Z amirouche: I mean the profiler gives number of times a procedure is called, and coverage, but no timing. 2021-05-04T07:36:33Z logand joined #scheme 2021-05-04T07:39:52Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-04T07:54:09Z srji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T07:59:33Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-04T08:10:21Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T08:12:53Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-04T08:14:11Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-04T08:19:09Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T08:21:52Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-04T08:24:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T08:29:14Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-04T08:36:48Z CyDefect quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2021-05-04T08:48:58Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-05-04T08:51:50Z irc_user quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-04T09:12:45Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T09:15:24Z skapata quit (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the IRC world.) 2021-05-04T09:15:33Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-04T09:15:52Z zzappie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T09:16:12Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-04T09:22:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T09:26:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T09:28:24Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T09:28:49Z zooey joined #scheme 2021-05-04T10:38:21Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-05-04T10:54:31Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-04T11:14:36Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-05-04T11:19:18Z srji joined #scheme 2021-05-04T11:22:16Z mdhughes: Chez has a ton of debug tools, (trace foo) is extremely helpful, just spams trace-output with every call to foo. 2021-05-04T11:23:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T11:25:49Z mdhughes: (trace-output-port (current-error-port)) will make it less annoying. 2021-05-04T11:26:24Z mdhughes: There is a debugger, but I'm an unfrozen caveman, so not the guy to use such things. 2021-05-04T11:28:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T11:41:20Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-04T11:52:50Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T11:52:51Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-05-04T11:53:05Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T11:55:46Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T11:57:34Z srandon111 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T11:59:55Z lritter_ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T12:05:06Z mns quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T12:10:35Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-04T12:13:27Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-04T12:33:34Z mns joined #scheme 2021-05-04T12:42:11Z mns quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-04T12:43:51Z mns joined #scheme 2021-05-04T13:05:06Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T13:05:24Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-04T13:09:20Z phillbush: Is there a pdf for r7rs with the errata applied? 2021-05-04T13:12:57Z jcowan: phillbush: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-spec/blob/errata/rnrs/r7rs.pdf 2021-05-04T13:13:10Z jcowan: (the approved version is at r7rs-official) 2021-05-04T13:16:29Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-04T13:23:31Z phillbush: jcowan: thanks 2021-05-04T13:30:51Z mns quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T13:40:36Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-04T13:51:34Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-04T13:52:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T14:10:21Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-04T14:15:48Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T14:17:15Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-04T14:31:02Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-04T14:40:21Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:11:37Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T15:15:45Z dan64- quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-05-04T15:16:05Z dan64 joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:17:20Z toorevitimirp joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:17:47Z nij joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:18:09Z nij: Hello! I have trouble with installing programs I clone from savannah. In particular, I'm looking at mcron which I got from `git clone https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/mcron.git`. In readme, it refers me to another file `INSTALL`, which is not present in the repo. 2021-05-04T15:18:32Z nij: mcron is written in scheme.. so I wonder if that has something to do with my issue. 2021-05-04T15:19:03Z wasamasa: that's GNU for you 2021-05-04T15:19:40Z wasamasa: > If this file is not present, see HACKING for preliminary build instructions. 2021-05-04T15:20:30Z nij: Oh my.. lemme try. 2021-05-04T15:21:38Z nij: Why are there usually so many steps to build for programs from savannah?.. 2021-05-04T15:24:58Z dpk: 23:44:29 dpk: String literals are mutable-but-an-error-to-mutate 2021-05-04T15:25:33Z dpk: but the point of 140 is that it gives me mstring? to find out whether an implementation obeys that restriction on literal strings (and indeed, with istrings provided, there is no reason for it not to) 2021-05-04T15:25:37Z dpk: 23:45:28 (I mean, you could try to mutate them, but that gets you into a big mess with condition values.) 2021-05-04T15:25:47Z nij: `make` done! Thanks, wasamasa. 2021-05-04T15:26:28Z dpk: in a single-threaded environment, you could check if (string-set! string 0 (string-ref string 0)) works, i guess. unless the implementation is clever enough to always allow a 'mutation' which wouldn't actually mutate it 2021-05-04T15:27:22Z jcowan: 140 just says that "literals are immutable" flat out, thus blurring the two dichotomies: strings you can change vs. strings you can't, and strings native to the implementation and istrings/texts which are not. 2021-05-04T15:27:34Z nij: `make check` passes as well. However, `./bin/mcron` complains about not having scheme code.. https://bpa.st/OCYQ 2021-05-04T15:27:49Z nij: I'm new to scheme toolchain. How does it work? 2021-05-04T15:27:57Z nij: s/toolchain/ecosystem/ 2021-05-04T15:28:15Z jcowan: If you are building your implementation from scratch, that's fine, but I want a portable implementation even at the expense of some regularity. 2021-05-04T15:28:23Z jcowan: s/can't/can't or shouldn't 2021-05-04T15:30:16Z nij: In particular, I get the error: ERROR: In procedure scm-error: no code for module (mcron scripts mcron) 2021-05-04T15:30:20Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:30:22Z wasamasa: nij: GNU 2021-05-04T15:30:24Z jcowan: dpk: Mutating such (formally mutable) strings "is an error", which means that anything can happen: raise an exception, do nothing, mutate anyway, die horribly, or make demons fly out of your nose. 2021-05-04T15:30:36Z wasamasa: nij: though, I wouldn't consider that many 2021-05-04T15:30:54Z wasamasa: nij: it gets more annoying for the auto-generation nonsense and the excessive amount of indirection involved 2021-05-04T15:34:10Z nij: Yeah.. i'm glad I have passed GNU in this case. Now it seems I'm encountering something that's due to my lack of experience with the scheme echosys. 2021-05-04T15:34:21Z nij: /s/echosys/ecosystem 2021-05-04T15:36:46Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:40:32Z Zipheir: I've been dealing with several Scheme ecosystems for a few years and I wouldn't have had any better idea of how to solve that. 2021-05-04T15:41:26Z dpk: jcowan: and if 140 actually returned #t to istring? on literal strings even if they could be mutated? 2021-05-04T15:42:24Z dpk: i guess that wouldn't help as something for which istring? is #t must have O(1) access to codepoints … 2021-05-04T15:42:37Z dpk: which would still make things tricky for implementors 2021-05-04T15:42:38Z nij: Zipheir: solve.. what? Do you mean the issue I have? 2021-05-04T15:42:51Z nij: Namely, that one in https://bpa.st/OCYQ 2021-05-04T15:42:59Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:43:12Z Zipheir: I was referring to the mcron stuff. 2021-05-04T15:43:54Z dpk . o O ( more convinced than ever that R7RS small should have omitted string-set!, which would not have stopped existing R5RSes providing it if they wanted … ) 2021-05-04T15:44:10Z jcowan: dpk: If you are an implementer, you can indeed make "foo" return #t to istring?. But I want a library that is as portable as possible, and preferably depends on no more than the R7RS. 2021-05-04T15:44:59Z toorevitimirp quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-05-04T15:45:04Z jcowan tried he did, but the bar to changing IEEE Scheme (between R4 and R5) in the committee charter was too high 2021-05-04T15:47:11Z jcowan: My plan is to make string? return #t on either strings or texts, but constrained by portability and by wanting to produce a string for all R7RS-compatible procedures. 2021-05-04T15:47:43Z mns joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:47:58Z Zipheir: Is there any issue with having (a) just core R7 strings and (b) (scheme text)? 2021-05-04T15:48:00Z jcowan: thus a map on mstrings returns an mstring as R7RS demands, whereas a map on istrings (with or without mstrings) returns an istring. 2021-05-04T15:48:31Z jcowan: People don't seem to like having a completely disjoint type, so we fool them into thinking it isn't. 2021-05-04T15:48:53Z dpk: and (scheme ilist) also works that way 2021-05-04T15:49:03Z dpk: or is supposed to, anyway 2021-05-04T15:49:05Z Zipheir: But SRFI 135's `textual' type includes strings. 2021-05-04T15:49:42Z Zipheir: Maybe SRFI 116 should have define a `listual' type... :) 2021-05-04T15:49:44Z jcowan: True. You underestimate, I think, the importance of names. "If it quacks like a string, it is a string!" is a firmly established mental convention. 2021-05-04T15:50:04Z dpk: (and if it has notation that looks like a string …) 2021-05-04T15:50:14Z Zipheir: Argh. 2021-05-04T15:50:58Z dpk: given this, i'm tending towards inverting my preferences and saying we should just go for SRFI 152 2021-05-04T15:51:16Z jcowan: So I will define istring? as returning #t on strings that the implementation knows to be immutable. On mutable strings that it is an error to mutate, such as literals, istring? may return either #t or #f. 2021-05-04T15:51:31Z dpk: and a version of SRFI 130 that doesn't share any names with 152 and maybe works by cursor mutation instead of of consing (since high performance would be the point) 2021-05-04T15:51:36Z jcowan: That's complex compared to text?, but it reflects reality 2021-05-04T15:52:05Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T15:52:18Z toorevitimirp joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:52:35Z jcowan: I haven't yet decided whether to try to include SRFI 130 in the mother of all string libraries. I'd settle for resolving the 135/140 split. 2021-05-04T15:52:41Z Zipheir: (Maybe the fundamental social issue is that many people seem to have this idea that strings are simple.) 2021-05-04T15:53:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T15:53:30Z dpk: Zipheir: i mean, they *are* pretty simple. there are well-defined trade-offs, but the problem is that the need for compatibility puts us in the position of having to make trade-offs people don't like 2021-05-04T15:53:37Z jcowan: I sneaked string->vector and vector->string into R7 as a way of bulding strings and then making them immutable in one go. 2021-05-04T15:54:05Z dpk: (sneak is a weak verb for you?) 2021-05-04T15:54:45Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-04T15:55:07Z jcowan: When writing for an international audience, yes. 2021-05-04T15:55:46Z iv4nshm4k0v: dpk: FWIW, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sneak#Verb 2021-05-04T15:56:13Z Zipheir: jcowan: Is that recent errata? I see no "it is an error to mutate..." here. 2021-05-04T15:56:33Z dpk: heh! so it was strong in OE, then became weak, then became strong again 2021-05-04T15:56:38Z Zipheir: (here ≡ vector->string) 2021-05-04T15:56:47Z nij: Hello! I'm not in a scheme repl. How do I find out what the load paths are? 2021-05-04T15:57:14Z dpk: although the OE descendant would be snake (or snoke) 2021-05-04T15:57:47Z toorevitimirp quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-05-04T15:57:50Z Zipheir: nij: Sorry, which Scheme? 2021-05-04T15:57:54Z jcowan: Zipheir: No, but if the WG had made strings immutable, I wanted an efficient way to construct them when unfolding is too rigid, since appending is typically not cost effective. 2021-05-04T15:58:09Z Zipheir: jcowan: Got it. 2021-05-04T16:01:24Z nij: Zipheir: guile 2021-05-04T16:01:54Z dpk: jcowan: but istring? => #t guarantees O(1) string-ref even if the string is, technically, mutable? 2021-05-04T16:03:12Z jcowan: dpk: Sleep and weep were also strong > weak, but became strong again in those dialects that simplify -pt to just -p. 2021-05-04T16:03:56Z jcowan: so it looks like slepan, sleop became sleep, slep straightforwardly 2021-05-04T16:05:28Z Zipheir: nij: %load-path ? 2021-05-04T16:07:02Z Zipheir: Yeah, that works. 2021-05-04T16:07:09Z nij: Oh! Indeed. 2021-05-04T16:09:30Z nij: I better get some basic syntax right.. having issue to even pushing a value into %load-path xD 2021-05-04T16:10:22Z Zipheir: nij: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Load-Paths.html 2021-05-04T16:11:13Z nij: Ah, add-to-load-path. Great. 2021-05-04T16:18:34Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T16:23:53Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T16:25:18Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-04T16:39:08Z mhd2018 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-04T16:40:52Z midow joined #scheme 2021-05-04T16:47:40Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T16:48:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T16:53:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-04T16:54:21Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-04T16:59:09Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T17:01:56Z Zipheir: Does anyone know if #scheme has any associated Web pages, e.g. on schemewiki or schemers.org? I've never been referred to any, and I'm trying to keep tabs on "channel resources". 2021-05-04T17:02:38Z nij left #scheme 2021-05-04T17:05:13Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T17:06:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-04T17:06:30Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-04T17:06:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-04T17:07:36Z m1dow joined #scheme 2021-05-04T17:09:27Z abralek_ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T17:10:39Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-04T17:17:54Z m1dow quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-04T17:17:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T17:24:47Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T17:27:44Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-04T17:29:20Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-04T17:29:20Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-05-04T17:29:20Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-04T17:50:21Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T17:51:38Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-04T17:55:30Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-04T18:00:13Z SrPx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T18:02:26Z SrPx joined #scheme 2021-05-04T18:12:47Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-05-04T18:14:34Z terpri_: Zipheir, just http://community.schemewiki.org/?%23scheme-on-freenode afaik (and it's a bit out of date, rip lisppaste) 2021-05-04T18:15:19Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-04T18:16:15Z Zipheir: terpri_: Thanks! 2021-05-04T18:16:45Z sdu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T18:18:21Z Zipheir: schemewiki's search is borked, it seems. 2021-05-04T18:28:47Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-04T18:32:02Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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The dynamic extent of the transaction is reifyed with the transaction object, I do not need to expose the transaction-state procedure at all. 2021-05-04T20:32:20Z skapata quit (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the IRC world.) 2021-05-04T20:33:37Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-04T20:46:45Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T20:50:44Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-05-04T20:51:49Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-04T21:28:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T21:29:33Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T21:31:49Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-04T21:32:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T21:32:49Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-04T21:33:00Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-04T21:37:21Z amirouche: https://github.com/pre-srfi/okdb#make-okdb-transaction-parameter-init-any--procedure 2021-05-04T21:43:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T21:47:37Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-04T21:50:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-04T21:52:28Z amirouche quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-05-04T21:52:46Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-05-04T21:55:47Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-04T22:05:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T22:10:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-04T22:13:57Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T22:18:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T22:19:08Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-04T22:19:15Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T22:21:52Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-04T22:22:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T22:23:15Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-04T22:28:13Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-05-04T22:39:09Z edvardo_ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T22:41:22Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-04T22:51:02Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-04T22:53:09Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T22:59:13Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-04T22:59:57Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T23:01:44Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:02:56Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:03:29Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:04:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-04T23:05:42Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-04T23:10:25Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:11:23Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-04T23:17:54Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:23:59Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:27:33Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-04T23:28:06Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T23:30:44Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T23:31:06Z DGASAU` joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:35:16Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:37:23Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:37:26Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T23:38:33Z rj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-04T23:38:56Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:43:57Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T23:44:18Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:44:19Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:45:41Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-04T23:48:53Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-04T23:52:43Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-05T00:03:33Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-05T00:05:55Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-05T00:08:48Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-05-05T00:08:54Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-05T00:11:09Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-05T00:33:33Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-05T00:37:39Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-05T00:37:47Z notzmv is now known as Guest13599 2021-05-05T00:39:49Z logand` joined #scheme 2021-05-05T00:40:59Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-05T00:41:40Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-05T01:05:33Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-05T01:09:08Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-05T01:09:19Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-05T01:19:12Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-05T01:20:45Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-05T01:21:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-05T01:23:02Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-05T01:24:34Z Guest13599 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-05T01:25:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-05T01:31:37Z edvardo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-05T01:31:54Z raingloom: anyone knows why the heck this gives an "invalid index" error in chez on arm64? (bytevector-u64-native-set! (make-bytevector 64) 1 0) 2021-05-05T01:32:47Z raingloom: i triple checked and using 0 for index works and sets the first 8 elements and nothing else, just as expected. there is no way 1 is an invalid index. 2021-05-05T01:32:59Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-05T01:34:52Z raingloom: it works as expected on Guile 2021-05-05T01:37:38Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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This procedure is apparently wrong because I'm using `and` as a procedure: 2021-05-05T12:37:41Z phillbush: https://0x0.st/-Bi9.txt 2021-05-05T12:39:41Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-05T12:47:31Z fizzie: SRFI-1's `every` would do that for you, if available. (It's like `map`, but applies a predicate and returns true if it returned true on every application.) 2021-05-05T12:47:55Z taw10: phillbush: "and" isn't a procedure, but rather a special form... otherwise, all its arguments would get evaluated (which doesn't matter in your case, but certainly does in others) 2021-05-05T12:48:22Z amirouche: (every negative? items) 2021-05-05T12:55:33Z zzappie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-05T12:55:54Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-05T13:00:27Z phillbush: I'm reading SRFI-1 now, thanks. 2021-05-05T13:21:31Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-05T13:22:18Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-05T13:22:37Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-05T13:25:09Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-05T13:27:42Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-05T13:33:05Z snits joined #scheme 2021-05-05T13:48:50Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-05T13:51:22Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-05T13:55:41Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-05T13:57:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-05T14:02:11Z srandon111 left #scheme 2021-05-05T14:05:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-05T14:07:01Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-05-05T14:09:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-05T14:11:42Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-05T14:13:30Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-05T14:29:16Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-05T14:29:21Z rj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-05T14:30:31Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-05T14:30:58Z rj quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-05T14:34:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-05T14:38:23Z logand` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-05T14:38:39Z logand` joined #scheme 2021-05-05T14:45:53Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-05T15:12:19Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-05T15:30:05Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-05T15:30:48Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-05T15:41:14Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-05T16:09:58Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-05T16:10:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-05T16:14:33Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-05T16:15:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-05T16:22:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-05T16:23:13Z sp1ff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-05T16:31:00Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-05T16:31:06Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-05T16:33:23Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-05T16:37:49Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-05T16:40:11Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-05T16:42:06Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-05T16:42:38Z Zipheir: amirouche: (every? (compose not negative?) items), right? 2021-05-05T16:43:13Z Zipheir: Oops, `every'. 2021-05-05T16:52:39Z abralek_ joined #scheme 2021-05-05T16:56:00Z Core3296 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-05T16:56:53Z abralek_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-05T16:57:46Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-05T16:59:46Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-05-05T17:10:42Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-05T17:11:10Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-05T17:11:34Z amirouche: yes sorry! 2021-05-05T17:11:44Z amirouche: there is also positive? in scheme base. 2021-05-05T17:12:39Z Zipheir: Yes, but the question was to find non-negative integers. 2021-05-05T17:12:56Z amirouche: oh yes then 2021-05-05T17:22:37Z fizzie: (not (any negative? items)) ;) 2021-05-05T17:25:44Z Zipheir: Yes, there's an equivalent version with `any'. 2021-05-05T17:26:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-05T17:31:34Z Noisytoot: Isn't that the same as (any positive? items)? 2021-05-05T17:34:41Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-05T17:34:52Z Zipheir: Well, that would be "there exists at least one positive number in items", whereas (not (any negative? items)) is "there is no negative number in items". 2021-05-05T17:36:21Z amirouche: I often fail basic instruction, even when I read carefully, similar to off by one error. 2021-05-05T17:36:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-05T17:38:50Z Zipheir: We'd all do better at this sort of thing if we learned lojban at an early age. (Sapir-Whorf all the way.) 2021-05-05T17:38:53Z Zipheir: :) 2021-05-05T17:39:35Z nly joined #scheme 2021-05-05T17:40:03Z nly: what's a good scheme for web servers? haha, if that is even possible 2021-05-05T17:41:07Z Zipheir: It depends entirely on what kind of server you want to write. I found CHICKEN perfectly fine for writing small servers. 2021-05-05T17:41:44Z wasamasa: for web servers, racket is also worth considering 2021-05-05T17:42:00Z nly: ty :) 2021-05-05T17:42:10Z nly: will look at both 2021-05-05T17:42:51Z Zipheir: Ask not what Scheme can do for your server, but rather what your clients will do to your Scheme server. :) 2021-05-05T17:43:06Z tdammers: lojban misses the point of natural languages. change my mind. 2021-05-05T17:43:27Z Zipheir: I don't particularly want to. I enjoy lojban immensely. 2021-05-05T17:43:42Z ecraven: coi ro do! 2021-05-05T17:43:44Z wasamasa: how dare you not jump into a lazy meme 2021-05-05T17:44:20Z Zipheir: ecraven: coi! 2021-05-05T17:44:59Z tdammers: maybe missing the point is part of the fun 2021-05-05T17:45:59Z Noisytoot: lojban doesn't use "!" 2021-05-05T17:47:56Z ecraven: I know, but I'm still very bad at it ;) 2021-05-05T17:47:59Z Zipheir: Indeed not. 2021-05-05T17:48:30Z ecraven: I haven't even mastered dogi bona yet :D 2021-05-05T17:48:30Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-05T17:48:31Z Zipheir: At this point, my English has a few lojban loanwords. 2021-05-05T17:48:45Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-05T18:06:16Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-05T18:06:51Z iltutmus quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-05T18:06:59Z iltutmus joined #scheme 2021-05-05T18:13:59Z jcowan: tdammers: Natural languages miss the point of Lojban, which is to both do FOPL and be able to express whatever natural languages can express. 2021-05-05T18:19:17Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-05T18:32:03Z amirouche: I pushed an update without code about a cml-like: https://github.com/pre-srfi/coop#specification 2021-05-05T18:32:12Z amirouche: how can I make progress about this before writing the code? 2021-05-05T18:32:52Z amirouche: the specification is very lite or light (lojban help me!) 2021-05-05T18:33:27Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-05T18:34:19Z nly: how do chicken eggs work on guix or nixos? 2021-05-05T18:34:22Z amirouche: oh there is 235 nicks at the moment, i need to finish the search engine very soon at this rate.. 2021-05-05T18:37:08Z dpk: amirouche: sorry, missing the central idea here. is this something like fibres? 2021-05-05T18:37:26Z amirouche: dpk: if you mean fibers, yes. 2021-05-05T18:37:38Z dpk: i'm British 2021-05-05T18:37:43Z amirouche: I do not know fibres. 2021-05-05T18:38:07Z amirouche: i'm French. 2021-05-05T18:38:13Z dpk: (fibre is the British spelling for fiber) 2021-05-05T18:38:53Z amirouche: the naming is different from cml paper, and guile-fibers, I tried to fit to scheme vocabulary. 2021-05-05T18:40:06Z amirouche: it is basically this part of the manual https://github.com/wingo/fibers/wiki/Manual#23-channels 2021-05-05T18:41:30Z amirouche: coop-spawn and coop-priority might not be necessary, but then the library does not stand still. 2021-05-05T18:41:43Z amirouche: Also like fibers manual suggest, there is other helper procedures. 2021-05-05T18:42:29Z amirouche: this part is also covered : https://github.com/wingo/fibers/wiki/Manual#22-operations 2021-05-05T18:43:23Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-05T18:47:41Z raingloom: weinholt: belated thanks! that was indeed the error. i thought the procedure works like an assignment to an array of uint64_t in C (so the index is translated to a byte offset using the member size), but apparently not. 2021-05-05T18:49:10Z amirouche: afaiu cml operations are what schemers call combinators, they describe the computation, but the computation itself is not done until you call perform, renamed coop-apply. 2021-05-05T18:50:54Z amirouche: And even when you call coop-apply, both sides of a channel must be ready, they meet or rendez-vous, or more precisely they wait each other (because they might be in difference "places"). There is no buffering. 2021-05-05T18:52:09Z amirouche: what is suprising is that the spec is very short. 2021-05-05T19:03:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-05T19:05:30Z nly left #scheme 2021-05-05T19:08:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-05T19:13:08Z amirouche: coop-consume and coop-consume wait each other in the same case. 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and know what to do to make it faster. 2021-05-06T05:37:04Z DGASAU: (Well, provided that you also know what not to do in Java to make it slower than wanted.) 2021-05-06T05:40:04Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: That's some claim that I haven't seen before. Care to point to the relevant benchmarks? 2021-05-06T05:41:31Z foof: Java is definitely not faster than C. For a lot of real-world applications the performance diff is arguably negligible though. 2021-05-06T05:41:42Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: the problem here is benchmarks, they are typically tuned to demonstrate features of implementation, they don't demonstrate neither average nor any other, say, top 0.1 percentile. 2021-05-06T05:41:55Z DGASAU: foof: bullshit. 2021-05-06T05:42:40Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: when I worked at Cisco we had one surprising result that Java outperformed performance-tuned C++ code. 2021-05-06T05:42:58Z siraben: DGASAU: oh, fascinating, why? 2021-05-06T05:43:02Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: the only thing where Java implementation was losing was memory consumption. 2021-05-06T05:43:11Z DGASAU: siraben: why what? 2021-05-06T05:43:16Z DGASAU: Why Java is faster than C? 2021-05-06T05:43:20Z siraben: Why was java outperforming C++ in that case? 2021-05-06T05:43:24Z siraben: or C for that matter 2021-05-06T05:43:42Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Then I'm afraid everything boils down to the programmer's experience. My own experience with C++ is very much trivial (and nearly couple decades out of date), and my Java experience is even worse than that. 2021-05-06T05:43:42Z DGASAU: Our best guess was better handling of memory. 2021-05-06T05:43:55Z siraben: I agree also, real-world vs. benchmarked results can be very different 2021-05-06T05:44:50Z DGASAU: What I see is that typical real-world application does a lot of complicated data structures. 2021-05-06T05:44:51Z siraben: and the Java code was probably easier to write, I'm guessing 2021-05-06T05:45:36Z foof: DGASAU: A better guess would be the JIT can take advantage of more information than a static compiler, but one anecdote doesn't prove anything. 2021-05-06T05:45:39Z DGASAU: Because of really excellent (perhaps, the best available) GC, all relevant memory allocations are optimized. 2021-05-06T05:46:12Z DGASAU: This is more important than JIT, IMO. 2021-05-06T05:46:16Z siraben: Yeah, they put a lot of work into GC 2021-05-06T05:46:23Z siraben: It's generational, right? 2021-05-06T05:46:29Z siraben: I think the pause times are in microseconds now 2021-05-06T05:46:52Z siraben: (I'm a noob when it comes to JVM-related matters) 2021-05-06T05:46:53Z foof: In benchmarks, Java is consistently much slower: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/java.html 2021-05-06T05:47:03Z mdhughes: DGASAU: Java is definitely not faster except in very rare cases, and uses 2-4x as much RAM. It's safer, it is slightly easier than C for big projects. 2021-05-06T05:47:18Z DGASAU: There exist edge cases, when you have performance problems with Java, but all those I have seen are related to low-memory and VM startup time dominance situations. 2021-05-06T05:47:43Z DGASAU: mdhughes: I have never seen that in practice. 2021-05-06T05:48:05Z DGASAU: What I _have_ seen is that C crashes more frequently. 2021-05-06T05:48:22Z siraben: surprise surprise 2021-05-06T05:48:37Z foof: ... which is replaced with NPEs and endless stack traces in Java :) 2021-05-06T05:48:52Z mdhughes: I've done C since '86, Java since '95. There's a role for Java, or was before we had nicer languages, but it's not C-but-better. 2021-05-06T05:48:53Z DGASAU: I have seen even a case where Java code was "self-healing" where C++ code crashed. 2021-05-06T05:49:40Z siraben: mdhughes: perhaps, Rust/Zig would be better replacements for C in that case? 2021-05-06T05:50:23Z mdhughes: But no shock, my safe language of choice now is Scheme or JavaScript (which is a Self with some Scheme semantics). 2021-05-06T05:50:26Z DGASAU: (Besides, I have seen a number of cases when the best data structures that C programmer could come along were linked lists or dynamically sized vectors.) 2021-05-06T05:50:53Z DGASAU: mdhughes: I can't comment on performance of JavaScript. 2021-05-06T05:51:06Z DGASAU: mdhughes: but I can comment on its sanity. 2021-05-06T05:51:27Z DGASAU: [22, 11, 3].sort() 2021-05-06T05:51:50Z DGASAU: [2, 11, 3].sort() 2021-05-06T05:53:32Z foof: A major problem with Java performance in practical applications is the inability of the compiler to optimizations for specialized containers, forcing this work into user space, e.g. https://fastutil.di.unimi.it/docs/it/unimi/dsi/fastutil/ints/Int2LongSortedMap.html 2021-05-06T05:53:54Z mdhughes: [2, 11, 3].sort((a,b)=>a>b) 2021-05-06T05:54:08Z DGASAU: mdhughes: could you tell me why this is needed? 2021-05-06T05:54:21Z mdhughes: Because the default does a string compare. 2021-05-06T05:54:22Z DGASAU: Integers have well-defined order. 2021-05-06T05:54:38Z DGASAU: Could you point to any string literal there? 2021-05-06T05:54:42Z mdhughes: You can read the docs and actually learn what soething does instead of relying on autocomplete. 2021-05-06T05:55:01Z DGASAU: That doesn't make it less insane. 2021-05-06T05:55:58Z mdhughes: It's not insane, just doesn't match your expectations. It's a web page processing language, coercion to string is common. 2021-05-06T05:57:02Z iv4nshm4k0v uses (a - - b) to add numbers in Javascript 2021-05-06T05:58:35Z DGASAU: mdhughes: I'm almost sure that even TCL isn't that insane. 2021-05-06T05:58:40Z siraben: DGASAU: wow, that's crazy sort behavior 2021-05-06T05:59:03Z foof: it's only sort of crazy 2021-05-06T05:59:18Z mdhughes considers it crazy to call features you don't understand "crazy". 2021-05-06T05:59:21Z siraben: Of course, I expected `[] + {} == '[object Object]'` to be true! /s 2021-05-06T06:00:09Z siraben: integers indeed have a well-defined order, to coerce to strings first then sort by that is unusual 2021-05-06T06:00:46Z DGASAU: (After I have seen it, I just ditched JavaScript and learned how to reimplement necessary pieces in Java and did plain servlets instead of all that modern fancy things.) 2021-05-06T06:00:53Z mdhughes: (if '() "yes" "no") => "yes" is crazy to a LISPer or a pre-R4 Schemer. It's perfectly reasonable in R4+ Scheme. 2021-05-06T06:01:14Z foof: js is just following a time-honored php semantics 2021-05-06T06:01:17Z foof runs away 2021-05-06T06:01:24Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Don't you mean the other way around? 2021-05-06T06:01:51Z Zipheir: Oh, no, I thought it out backwards. 2021-05-06T06:01:53Z mdhughes: rudybot, (if '() "yes" "no") 2021-05-06T06:01:58Z rudybot: mdhughes: your sandbox is ready 2021-05-06T06:01:58Z rudybot: mdhughes: ; Value: "yes" 2021-05-06T06:02:21Z iv4nshm4k0v: FTR, in Tcl, lsort { 2 11 3 } => 11 2 3 . (As opposed to lsort -integer or lsort -real .) 2021-05-06T06:03:07Z mdhughes: iv4nshm4k0v: Right, for same reason as JS: It's all about string processing, math work is an edge case. 2021-05-06T06:03:21Z DGASAU: At least TCL has EIAS as motto. 2021-05-06T06:03:47Z Zipheir: Or perhaps the languages that do that secretly don't have numeric types. 2021-05-06T06:03:50Z siraben: DGASAU: for more serious work I use Typescript 2021-05-06T06:04:02Z siraben: which is a good lingua franca to use with other devs 2021-05-06T06:04:14Z DGASAU: siraben: whatever works for you. 2021-05-06T06:04:33Z siraben: if it were up to me I'd use Reason ML or Purescript, but heh, gotta work with others. 2021-05-06T06:04:55Z DGASAU: As I said, when I needed to create a prototype web application, I decided to reimplement necessary pieces in Java than fight unexpected things in JavaScript. 2021-05-06T06:04:55Z siraben: Typescript does address a lot of gotchas with JS, IME 2021-05-06T06:07:39Z DGASAU: amirouche: I did check MIT Scheme, but I didn't try it, since there were already enough implementations and adding yet another minor one (with unclear support status) wouldn't improve anything. 2021-05-06T06:09:21Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T06:10:07Z DGASAU: amirouche: as for concurrency, I suggest that you try something with higher-level constructs than CML. 2021-05-06T06:17:32Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-06T06:19:57Z siraben: What's CML? 2021-05-06T06:20:57Z DGASAU: Concurrent ML. 2021-05-06T06:22:54Z siraben: Ah, right. I want to look into that sometime. 2021-05-06T06:24:33Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T06:28:41Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-05-06T06:29:14Z DGASAU: I did it once, and I have to say that it is more of theoretical value. 2021-05-06T06:29:41Z _________ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T06:29:52Z DGASAU: While I agree that it is somewhat easier in handling than semaphores, I can't say it is a lot better. 2021-05-06T06:37:20Z aukkras joined #scheme 2021-05-06T06:54:47Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-06T07:07:37Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-06T07:12:04Z abralek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T07:26:28Z tophullyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-06T07:26:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-06T07:31:06Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-06T07:34:05Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-06T07:34:39Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-06T07:36:54Z amirouche: DGASAU: I do not know any higher level constructs than CML, except the actor model. 2021-05-06T07:41:46Z DGASAU: amirouche: I suggest that you take a look at Java API then. 2021-05-06T07:42:31Z DGASAU: amirouche: if you're not afraid of getting through a bit of Cyrillic, there was a talk at some JUG from author of "Core Java" on that topic. 2021-05-06T07:43:33Z amirouche: The new Java Loom project ? 2021-05-06T07:43:45Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-06T07:44:24Z DGASAU: It was either Joker conference or some other meeting under JUG umbrella. 2021-05-06T07:45:40Z amirouche: I guess https://jokerconf.com/en/2020/talks/36xrjho9i8xn9ctvvtvxqr/ 2021-05-06T07:47:55Z DGASAU: I meant this one actually: https://2017.jokerconf.com/2017/talks/19xpeft7skkusywqmgwke2/ 2021-05-06T07:49:30Z DGASAU: In any case, as I mentioned above, my experience is that as of today Java is the most elaborate programming language that deals into heavy data processing, including speed, concurrency and a number of other non-trivial stuff. 2021-05-06T07:50:53Z DGASAU: Even if there exist better examples, it is still very good to know what is going on there. 2021-05-06T07:51:48Z amirouche: Maybe Java is the most elaborate PL in terms of existing, runnable, and production code. I benchmarked a 3 years back, my database against a Java equivalent, mine was 3 times faster. 2021-05-06T07:51:50Z amirouche: I agree that it is good to know what is going on there. 2021-05-06T07:53:27Z amirouche: As for concurrency, I looked at both talks, there is nothing I did not know in the slides. Also the link I pasted is missing a description of the nursery inspired from python trio (possibly inspired from erlang) 2021-05-06T07:53:32Z abralek joined #scheme 2021-05-06T07:54:17Z amirouche: I do not recall the exact name they use in Java Loom project. 2021-05-06T08:00:11Z DGASAU: I have one unfair example for Java, actually. 2021-05-06T08:03:17Z DGASAU: There's OpenHFT, it earns money at high rate, and it is written in Java. :) 2021-05-06T08:06:24Z aquijoule_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T08:06:59Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-05-06T08:09:57Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T08:12:15Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-06T08:12:34Z amirouche: regarding a PL, money making or mainstream popularity is much different from technical ability. In the case of Java or Python or JS, it can be attributed to the army of developer and what I call the brute force approach ie. they try a lot to succeed, and sometime eventually they do, and they do more often that those that do not try. 2021-05-06T08:14:36Z amirouche: That is even more general than PL, the saying I read around here around companies or rock star developers is similar: it is not only merit or even technical merit that explain "success". 2021-05-06T08:15:49Z DGASAU: Well... My opinion on Python is rather... I don't know how to express it even! 2021-05-06T08:15:51Z DGASAU: "Special." 2021-05-06T08:16:56Z DGASAU: It is relatively good prog. lang., if you try very hard to forget its performance qualities. 2021-05-06T08:17:22Z DGASAU: Personally, I'd rather promote something like Ada instead. 2021-05-06T08:18:22Z amirouche: While I can almost painlessly read Python or JavaScript, I do not have enough Java experience to read Lucene, but my (professional) experience with ElasticSearch tells me it is broken in many ways, unrelated to the programming language in use, it might be explained by the skewed ui/ux or developer experience vision the maintainer have. That last point, increase my confidence that the success of ES 2021-05-06T08:18:25Z amirouche: in particular is brute force. 2021-05-06T08:19:15Z DGASAU: Well... Yeah... 2021-05-06T08:19:17Z amirouche: On my aspects Python looks like Java in terms of developer experience. 2021-05-06T08:19:40Z DGASAU: The problem is that _modern_ industry programming language has some important features not in Algol. 2021-05-06T08:20:12Z amirouche: I mean to say the Java developer experience I am aware of. 2021-05-06T08:20:23Z tdammers: I believe that ES's popularity is mainly due to the fact that for the crucial phase of its existence, its competition was "hand-written facet search code written against raw MySQL", and "we don't understand Lucene, we'll just write random stuff until the outcome looks somewhat right" 2021-05-06T08:20:57Z amirouche: I do not understand the last sentence. 2021-05-06T08:21:43Z DGASAU: amirouche: mine or tdammers'? 2021-05-06T08:22:02Z amirouche: I do not understand the last sentence of tdammers. 2021-05-06T08:22:35Z tdammers: the Lucene part? I'm just saying that when ES was first released, it very much did address a pain point. 2021-05-06T08:22:54Z tdammers: so people started using it, and it kind of set the standard for the thing it does. 2021-05-06T08:23:10Z tdammers: much like PHP, for a long time, set the standard for server-side web dev 2021-05-06T08:23:23Z amirouche: sure, I belive ES adress some problems with Lucene which is just a library. I do not know how it improves upon solr tho. 2021-05-06T08:23:24Z DGASAU: amirouche: these non-Algol features are used extensively in Java, and they, surely, do not let random person understand the code with prior knowledge of Algol subset only. 2021-05-06T08:23:36Z tdammers: not by merit of being "good" or "solid" by any means, but simply by existing at a crucial moment in time 2021-05-06T08:23:48Z amirouche: tdammers: I agree! 2021-05-06T08:24:23Z amirouche: DGASAU: I am not familiar with Algol, and I am not sure what it means. It is a family of PL? Is that related to scheme somehow? 2021-05-06T08:24:37Z tdammers: the part that people miss all the time is that those problems seem petty in hindsight, and from a technical perspective, they largely are, but both PHP and ES kind of cater to the "don't make me think" audience 2021-05-06T08:25:05Z mdhughes: Scheme is in fact a more Algol-like LISP. 2021-05-06T08:25:11Z amirouche: tdammers: yes, again. I call those libraries : "filling the blanks" 2021-05-06T08:25:35Z tdammers: yeah. and people underestimate the impact of filling those blanks all the time. 2021-05-06T08:25:49Z DGASAU: tdammers: if you substitute "ES" with "JS" and rewrite middle part, it will apply to JS. :) 2021-05-06T08:25:52Z mdhughes: Even like §1 of the spec: "Following Algol, Scheme is a statically scoped program- ming language. Each use of a variable is associated with a lexically apparent binding of that variable. " 2021-05-06T08:26:17Z wasamasa: rudybot: program ming dynasty 2021-05-06T08:26:18Z rudybot: wasamasa: hmm, 'A gang of eunuchs is attempting to overthrow the Ming Dynasty, and sibling assassins Sister Ko (Michelle Yeoh) and Brother Sing (Tony Leung) must infiltrate the group to stop them in this Hong Kong action thriller ' 2021-05-06T08:26:24Z DGASAU: amirouche: Algol was originally _the_ programming language, and it has established whole family. 2021-05-06T08:26:50Z amirouche: It goes back to the conversation about Scheme vs. Python at MIT, people glue things together, they do not try to understand much of what they are doing. 2021-05-06T08:27:10Z amirouche: Which can be fine, but it inihibit / reduce progress. 2021-05-06T08:27:11Z tdammers: DGASAU: of course. JS also succeeded by the same mechanism. It is by no means a novel or ground breaking programming language, literally every one of its features was nicked from another existing language - but it existed as a client-side web scripting language when nothing else did 2021-05-06T08:27:44Z tdammers: also: understanding everything you work with is unreasonable. there's just too much of it. 2021-05-06T08:27:57Z DGASAU: amirouche: what I mean, is that if you know if-then-else-while-for-goto + subroutines, it lets you understand most of python but not modern java. 2021-05-06T08:28:09Z mdhughes: Teaching Python first is a good way to introduce programming to children, not as good as BASIC was at that. But for teaching Comp Sci, neither are suitable. 2021-05-06T08:28:32Z DGASAU: mdhughes: I disagree on BASIC. 2021-05-06T08:28:48Z amirouche: tdammers: I disagree ! I understand a lot of my search engine stack, I even diving into building a custom transpiler. 2021-05-06T08:28:50Z DGASAU: Given that you remember eighties, you should understand that. 2021-05-06T08:28:53Z mdhughes: Note also https://mdhughes.tech/2021/05/03/basic-at-57/ 2021-05-06T08:29:21Z amirouche: tdammers: I mean it is possible to understand a lot of the tool you use. The problem is the industry does not lean toward increase or spreading knowledge evenly. 2021-05-06T08:29:31Z DGASAU: "13 if x < 0 then 666" 2021-05-06T08:29:54Z DGASAU: That's worse than FORTRAN II. 2021-05-06T08:30:01Z amirouche: DGASAU: modern Python is more complex than you think, and Python code bases are very influced by Java pratices. 2021-05-06T08:30:02Z tdammers: amirouche: well yes. you can understand a lot, but understanding every single bit isn't practical in a world where deadlines and time-to-market and stakeholders exist 2021-05-06T08:30:14Z amirouche: tdammers: yes 2021-05-06T08:30:38Z amirouche: but that might explain why the startup scene fail so often. 2021-05-06T08:30:53Z mdhughes: Most BASICs now have procedures, local variables, while loops, and other niceties. It's still awkward to write big programs, but it's not too hard. 2021-05-06T08:31:08Z DGASAU: amirouche: I don't remember heavy use of annotations in python, but I have not touched it for some time. 2021-05-06T08:31:14Z mdhughes: And for a beginner, GOTO is *fantastic*. They can immediately see where the next line is, and follow along. 2021-05-06T08:31:46Z tdammers: haha yeah, as much as I love Dijkstra quotes, the one about BASIC is just complete BS 2021-05-06T08:31:52Z mdhughes: Assuming that any language is good or bad for all purposes is wrong. 2021-05-06T08:32:02Z mdhughes: (except PHP. Is always wrong.) 2021-05-06T08:32:03Z amirouche: DGASAU: there is a new concept called annotation in Python, for declaring static types. They are unrelated to Java annotations. You can do the equivalent of Java annotation in (too) many ways with python. 2021-05-06T08:32:41Z tdammers: it doesn't matter sh* what someone's first programming language was; what I care about is what they learned from it, what other languages they learned later, and what kind of programming style they distilled from all that 2021-05-06T08:33:16Z DGASAU: tdammers: it matters a lot, actually. That's what Dijkstra was talking about. 2021-05-06T08:33:33Z DGASAU: Some languages help you learn important things, while others prevent you from doing that. 2021-05-06T08:33:47Z tdammers: yes. but just because you learned language X first doesn't ruin you 2021-05-06T08:34:34Z DGASAU: The problem is that in a lot of cases this influences people foreverl. 2021-05-06T08:34:37Z tdammers: if BASIC is the only language you ever learn, then yes, you will be a bad programmer. but if you start with BASIC, and then proceed to also learn C, Python, some Lisp, something typed like Haskell or Rust, and learn lessons from each, then you are by no means ruined 2021-05-06T08:34:45Z DGASAU: Take a look at "Numerical Recipes". 2021-05-06T08:35:22Z DGASAU: They had versions in: Fortran 77, Common Lisp, Modula-2, Fortran 90, C, C++. 2021-05-06T08:35:30Z DGASAU: BASIC too, IIRC. 2021-05-06T08:35:40Z DGASAU: All the code is still crap. 2021-05-06T08:35:58Z ChoHag: s/the// 2021-05-06T08:36:40Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-05-06T08:37:03Z tdammers: I don't understand what nr has to do with anything 2021-05-06T08:37:40Z tdammers: what Dijkstra says is that once you have learned BASIC, you can never learn proper programming anymore. I find that rather condescending, and it's also blatantly false. 2021-05-06T08:37:42Z DGASAU: If you take a look at their C code, you can notice that it written in the style of BASIC. 2021-05-06T08:37:49Z tdammers: so? 2021-05-06T08:38:13Z DGASAU: So, authors of "Numerical Recipes" failed to learn proper programming. 2021-05-06T08:38:18Z tdammers: yes 2021-05-06T08:38:34Z tdammers: but if their first language had been something else, they'd still write shitty code 2021-05-06T08:38:45Z DGASAU: Their example is not unique. 2021-05-06T08:39:05Z tdammers: BASIC didn't ruin them. BASIC just determined the flavor of shitty. 2021-05-06T08:39:40Z DGASAU: If their first language had been something that more structured, it would have influenced their style for good. 2021-05-06T08:39:46Z tdammers: I've seen plenty of people with only one language under their belt, and no desire to learn another one; and regardless of what language that was, they would write shit code without fail 2021-05-06T08:39:53Z tdammers: different flavors of shit, but shit code nonetheless 2021-05-06T08:40:15Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-06T08:40:48Z DGASAU: I have seen code in Delphi that was written in such non-idiomatic style that it was showing that original language of author was BASIC. 2021-05-06T08:40:55Z mdhughes: Most likely, their code was written in the style of FORTRAN, because it's a book of recipes for engineers & physicists to correctly compute values they need, NOT a book on "software engineering" or computer science. 2021-05-06T08:41:25Z DGASAU: tdammers: in particular, the version with "letter + digits" restriction. 2021-05-06T08:42:08Z tdammers: yes, but again, that code is shit because the person who wrote it was never going to be great at programming. they were ruined before encountering BASIC 2021-05-06T08:43:01Z DGASAU: mdhughes: not necessarily. 2021-05-06T08:43:01Z tdammers: heck, I've written a fair share of BASIC in my life. it's a shitty little language, but it doesn't ruin you. neither does PHP. not unless you allow it to. 2021-05-06T08:43:30Z DGASAU: mdhughes: take a look at Bunday's intro into numerical optimization. 2021-05-06T08:43:39Z tdammers: and if you do allow a language to "ruin" you as a programmer, then every language can do it. different flavors of shit, different degrees of "obvious", but still 2021-05-06T08:43:57Z tdammers: I have seen some absolutely horrible Java code 2021-05-06T08:44:00Z DGASAU: tdammers: you miss the point. 2021-05-06T08:44:09Z tdammers: which is? 2021-05-06T08:44:20Z ChoHag: No language'll ruin you unless you decided to become dogmatic about it. 2021-05-06T08:44:27Z DGASAU: A language like Java, i.e. without "goto", _insists_ on more structured code. 2021-05-06T08:44:44Z tdammers: no doubt there 2021-05-06T08:44:55Z DGASAU: It makes writing spaghetti harder than, say, C or C#. 2021-05-06T08:44:56Z tdammers: but you'll still be a shit programmer if Java is all you ever learn 2021-05-06T08:45:02Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-06T08:45:08Z tdammers: you just get a different flavor of shit 2021-05-06T08:45:19Z tdammers: convoluted hairball shit instead of lengthy linear spaghetti shit 2021-05-06T08:45:46Z DGASAU: While this is shit of different kind, it smells less still. 2021-05-06T08:46:15Z tdammers: nah. maybe you haven't stared into the abyss deeply enough yet. 2021-05-06T08:46:41Z DGASAU: It is structured still, not spaghetti with all variables global. 2021-05-06T08:47:12Z ChoHag: Java's a much better C than C++ is, that's for sure. 2021-05-06T08:47:12Z DGASAU: tdammers: thanks, I still don't like abyss staring at me. 2021-05-06T08:48:04Z tdammers: anyway, the point I was making is that Dijkstra is wrong - just because a language doesn't support a certain paradigm or "best practice" doesn't mean that that's how you will write code forever. 2021-05-06T08:48:43Z DGASAU: That's not Dijkstra's point. 2021-05-06T08:49:16Z ChoHag: Perhaps he just didn't say "only" loud enough? 2021-05-06T08:49:34Z ChoHag: BASIC's a fine language if you're a beginner. The clue is in the name. 2021-05-06T08:50:00Z ChoHag: But if you internalise the way it does things as being the way things are done, you will remain a beginner. 2021-05-06T08:50:05Z DGASAU: ChoHag: bullshit. 2021-05-06T08:50:15Z DGASAU: BASIC is awful language for anyone. 2021-05-06T08:50:18Z DGASAU: Beginner or not. 2021-05-06T08:50:30Z tdammers: "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." 2021-05-06T08:50:38Z mdhughes: ChoHag: Exactly. 2021-05-06T08:50:38Z DGASAU: ChoHag: "13 if x < 0 then 666" 2021-05-06T08:50:40Z ChoHag: *plonk* 2021-05-06T08:50:42Z tdammers: there is no "only" there. 2021-05-06T08:51:05Z tdammers: BASIC, and especially the flavor that Dijkstra knew at the time, is awful. No discussion there. 2021-05-06T08:51:51Z ChoHag: BASIC taught me to read. 2021-05-06T08:52:01Z tdammers: but the assumption that learning it makes one "mentally mutilated beyodn hope of regeneration" says more about Dijkstra's teaching mindset than it says about BASIC 2021-05-06T08:52:37Z DGASAU: tdammers: there is exaggeration, yet it describes BASIC of the time very well. 2021-05-06T08:53:01Z tdammers: the part I don't agree with is the "beyond hope" thing 2021-05-06T08:53:08Z ChoHag: Have you heard of the idea of "rhetoric"? 2021-05-06T08:53:18Z lockywolf quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-06T08:53:33Z tdammers: that's a rhetorical question, right? 2021-05-06T08:54:04Z DGASAU: tdammers: That's rhetoric exaggeration, you can substitute something politically correct, if PC is what you like. 2021-05-06T08:54:26Z tdammers: seriously, even in context, and considering the hyperbole, I still don't agree with the premise that learning BASIC is a net negative 2021-05-06T08:54:54Z tdammers: you won't learn structure - sure 2021-05-06T08:55:02Z ChoHag: IIRC from whenever I read that, that wasn't the take-away I got from it. 2021-05-06T08:55:09Z DGASAU: BASIC of the time taught: bad style of structuring code, bad style of naming variables (even if your BASIC supported something other than "letter + digits") and a number of other things. 2021-05-06T08:55:18Z tdammers: but that's fine. you'll learn that later, when you encounter a programming language that it better suited to structured programmign 2021-05-06T08:55:28Z DGASAU: Also, no subroutines. 2021-05-06T08:55:41Z ChoHag: I learned BASIC with subroutines. 2021-05-06T08:56:05Z DGASAU: tdammers: that's the point: you could have started from Algol-60 or some subset of PL. 2021-05-06T08:56:08Z DGASAU: PL/I 2021-05-06T08:56:09Z ChoHag: I don't think it had scoped variables and no idea wtf happened when you tried to GOTO out of a subroutine. 2021-05-06T08:56:36Z tdammers: if you have the smallest ounce of talent in you (as in, the desire to get better at programming, and a bit of intuition and common sense), then you will either feel the pain when still stuck in oldschool BASIC, or you will realize what you've been missing out on the moment you encounter better abstractions in the next language you learn 2021-05-06T08:56:40Z ChoHag: 2 or 3 looping constructs. 2021-05-06T08:56:41Z DGASAU: ChoHag: such versions didn't exist in Dijkstra's time. 2021-05-06T08:56:54Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-06T08:57:20Z DGASAU: ChoHag: typical BASIC operator is "13 if x < 0 then 666". 2021-05-06T08:57:28Z ChoHag: It was nevertheless clear that wasn't because the language was incapable, just the implementations. 2021-05-06T08:57:59Z DGASAU: No subroutines, all loops through "if" and "goto", variable names only "letter + digits". 2021-05-06T08:58:24Z ChoHag: And considering that at the time the next thing you'd likely be learning was assembly, that made a lot of sense for beginners to learn. 2021-05-06T08:58:30Z DGASAU: No. 2021-05-06T08:59:16Z DGASAU: There existed Algol-60, Pascal, some subsets of PL/I (e.g. PL/M). 2021-05-06T08:59:42Z DGASAU: Even FORTRAN IV was less horrible. 2021-05-06T08:59:59Z ChoHag: There were dozens of languages. 2021-05-06T09:00:04Z Raphael[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-05-06T09:00:10Z ChoHag: You'd still be learning assembly in the 1960s. 2021-05-06T09:00:16Z DGASAU: I list only the most widespread. 2021-05-06T09:00:26Z ChoHag: And I dismissed the list as irrelevant. 2021-05-06T09:00:42Z DGASAU: FORTRAN exists since 1958. 2021-05-06T09:00:49Z ChoHag: It was the 19 bloody 60s. You learned assembly. 2021-05-06T09:01:08Z ChoHag: BASIC was a fine introduction to that. 2021-05-06T09:01:33Z DGASAU: You didn't, unless you were specializing in computational methods. 2021-05-06T09:02:03Z ChoHag: You *learned* it. You didn't have to become a wizard but you had to understand what the 16 bytes of memory you had available were doing. 2021-05-06T09:02:32Z ChoHag: At least be vaguely aware of the concepts of opcodes and accumulators. 2021-05-06T09:02:42Z DGASAU: Ehm... 2021-05-06T09:03:04Z DGASAU: Could you elaborate what you can do with 16 bytes of memory? 2021-05-06T09:03:09Z ChoHag: Exaggerate? 2021-05-06T09:03:52Z ChoHag: I probably shouldn't use hyperbole, even so blatantly, but I just can't help myself. 2021-05-06T09:05:42Z iv4nshm4k0v: FWIW, some ATtiny MCUs (ATtiny15, I think) have around 32 bytes of general-purpose SRAM. There's also flash-based (read: read-only) program memory, of course, but still. 2021-05-06T09:06:00Z DGASAU: BASIC was really bad choice to teach programming all the time until advent of really advanced versions that were heavily influenced by Pascal. 2021-05-06T09:06:35Z mdhughes: BASIC kind of *is* the way things are done, it's closer to ASM than anything else. Just numbers, a few string macros. 2021-05-06T09:06:41Z ChoHag: It sounds like you're viewing history through a modern lens. 2021-05-06T09:07:09Z mdhughes: And the "really advanced" BASICs came out by early-mid '80s. Turbo BASIC XL had all the modern features, still line-numbered but usable. 2021-05-06T09:09:01Z mdhughes: BASIC is perfectly suitable for a kid to learn "you break problems up into steps, operating on numbers or short strings". And it's fine for engineers to run "loop these 1000 data values through a function and format a table". 2021-05-06T09:10:02Z mdhughes: A language serves its specific purpose. Just because it isn't *your* specific purpose doesn't make it bad for everyone else. 2021-05-06T09:10:42Z DGASAU: mdhughes: since late 70s there exist much much better teaching languages than BASIC. 2021-05-06T09:10:50Z mdhughes: And where BASIC was better than any other language, before or since, was: You turned the computer on, got a READY prompt, typed in a program. 2021-05-06T09:11:15Z mdhughes: You cannot improve on that. Even LISP Machines took more effort to reach "type code, run". 2021-05-06T09:12:01Z tdammers: the first concerns for someone completely new to programming aren't "structure" or "abstractions" or "best practices" or any of that. the first things you learn are way, way, way more basic than that. the concept of "source code" alone. forming an intuition for the way code "means" something. getting to terms with the computer taking you literally, without mercy. 2021-05-06T09:12:08Z DGASAU: mdhughes: you have never met SM/DWK series, obviously. 2021-05-06T09:12:16Z tdammers: literally anything works for that 2021-05-06T09:12:22Z ChoHag: The first concerns are 'the hell are all these squiggles for?' 2021-05-06T09:12:53Z tdammers: yes, or, put differently: in programming, this squiggle doesn't mean what it does in normal-people-usage 2021-05-06T09:13:22Z mdhughes: I just read an argument in a 1980s Atari Connection, between LOGO and BASIC supporters. And the LOGO people have fine points, but: It doesn't boot first, it eats much more memory, it takes more teaching to learn useful LOGO. 2021-05-06T09:13:22Z ChoHag: I remember the first time I went to Ukraine and suddenly I couldn't read any more. 2021-05-06T09:13:27Z DGASAU: tdammers: even in those cases nearly all approaches are better than BASIC. 2021-05-06T09:13:34Z ChoHag: Very different from visiting European countries which use the latin alphabet. 2021-05-06T09:13:38Z ChoHag: It must feel something like that. 2021-05-06T09:13:41Z DGASAU: Alright, with exception of FOCAL. 2021-05-06T09:13:58Z mdhughes: I have no idea what "SM/DWK" is supposed to indicate. 2021-05-06T09:14:11Z tdammers: DGASAU: I don't agree, but even if they were, BASIC isn't anywhere near as bad for this purpose as Dijkstra makes it sound 2021-05-06T09:14:27Z ChoHag: Grammar and even vocabulary were not my first priorities when learning that. 2021-05-06T09:14:36Z DGASAU: mdhughes: DWK-2 or architecture compatibles from SM series. 2021-05-06T09:15:49Z ChoHag: I think he just didn't expect his words to be picked apart quite so meticulously. 2021-05-06T09:16:05Z ChoHag: I guess he should have realised he was talking to programmers but eh. 2021-05-06T09:16:40Z tdammers: actually, if you read it in context, and accept the hyperbole and the rhetorics, the point he's making is still kind of bad 2021-05-06T09:16:55Z DGASAU: tdammers: being bad to BASIC is good to programmers. 2021-05-06T09:18:08Z mdhughes: ??? https://www.equipnet.com/dan-science-dpa-2500-dwk-2-tube-cleaning-syst-listid-794391/ 2021-05-06T09:18:15Z tdammers: and I don't even mean the "BASIC is bad" point, to which I largely agree. I mean the slightly deeper layer that shows through, the idea that programming needs to be "taught", the teaching model where the student is a helpless clean sheet, and the teacher implants skill and knowledge into the student 2021-05-06T09:18:39Z ChoHag: Ohhhh I get it now. It's Thursday. 2021-05-06T09:18:58Z DGASAU: mdhughes: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B8%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%87%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81 2021-05-06T09:18:59Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/90s7EubOlx 2021-05-06T09:19:14Z tdammers: these are humans we're talking about. presumably intelligent humans, capable of rational thought, capable of forming intuitions, capable of detecting bullshit, to varying degrees 2021-05-06T09:19:16Z dieggsy: FWIW (maybe without value to the current context of the conversation) as an ignorant "youngun", pretty much nobody is using any of these languages as a first language anymore. i get the impression even scheme is only still being used a handful of places educationally anymore 2021-05-06T09:19:33Z mdhughes: Uh huh, and that means what to an English-speaking person? 2021-05-06T09:20:02Z mdhughes: Tho at least the screen shows it boots to BASIC, as all right computers do. 2021-05-06T09:20:11Z iv4nshm4k0v: tdammers: Very much seconded. 2021-05-06T09:20:20Z DGASAU: mdhughes: not all versions booted to BASIC. 2021-05-06T09:20:28Z DGASAU: Some did, but many didn't. 2021-05-06T09:20:32Z ChoHag: I wasn't particularly intelligent or rational at the time I was learning BASIC. 2021-05-06T09:20:55Z mdhughes: Do you really need 4 long prompts to get there? TRS-80 had to prompt for date and cassette initially, but got an expansion later to remove those. 2021-05-06T09:21:42Z tdammers: ChoHag: you were. you may not have been very experienced or knowledgeable, but you were smart enough to learn BASIC, and then presumably a zoo of other languages, and you were rational enough to not blindly accept everything about BASIC as set in stone, never to be changed again 2021-05-06T09:22:20Z DGASAU: mdhughes: what is importan that in class where you were taught, you had network of computers that was controlled by leader system. 2021-05-06T09:22:21Z ChoHag: tdammers: I was not rational, I was 6. 2021-05-06T09:22:37Z DGASAU: mdhughes: this eliminated the need of additional steps completely. 2021-05-06T09:22:59Z tdammers: ChoHag: fair enough - but still. you learned other stuff eventually, and whatever you took from BASIC went through a filter in the process. 2021-05-06T09:23:03Z mdhughes: BTW, same program in Chipmunk BASIC returns: 674530.475522 674530.475522 so the FP on that was junk. 2021-05-06T09:23:28Z amirouche: ChoHag: #lojban delivers a related feeling 2021-05-06T09:23:37Z amirouche: ChoHag: same alphabet, but unreadable. 2021-05-06T09:23:43Z mdhughes: I didn't get to see a real computer until I was 9. 2021-05-06T09:23:55Z tdammers: humans aren't machines. it's not like you teach someone BASIC, and then they are physically incapable of adjusting their habits and extending their intuitions, skill, and knowledge later 2021-05-06T09:24:18Z DGASAU: mdhughes: No idea what Chipmunk BASIC is, yet modern simulations of programmable calculators typically use IEEE FPNs instead of native ones. 2021-05-06T09:24:20Z ChoHag: A long route through mostly perl, so I don't what that says about my mental model of programming. 2021-05-06T09:24:33Z mdhughes: http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/basic/ 2021-05-06T09:25:25Z tdammers: ChoHag: not much. again, the languages you learned say less about you than what you took from them. There are tons of good ideas in Perl, and a good serving of atrocious ones; you can go to heaven or to hell with it, up to you. 2021-05-06T09:25:32Z ChoHag: Well I completely agree with the turn on, get prompt being BASIC's best feature. 2021-05-06T09:25:34Z tdammers: Same with any language, to varying degrees. 2021-05-06T09:25:54Z dieggsy: i didn't start programming til like 18 lol 2021-05-06T09:26:46Z DGASAU: mdhughes: I'm not interested enough to find it out which FPN implementation it uses. 2021-05-06T09:26:52Z tdammers: I started at 12, but the biggest advancements came in my late 20s 2021-05-06T09:26:53Z DGASAU: mdhughes: I assume IEEE one. 2021-05-06T09:27:03Z DGASAU: mdhughes: of course, back then it was different. 2021-05-06T09:27:05Z ChoHag: Otherwise it would have been as mystifying to me as was the idea of machine code (how does a long string of numbers do anything? Where are the print/let/goto/etc. statements?) when I first saw it a few years later. 2021-05-06T09:28:00Z ChoHag: I thought the guy who showed me the code in some magazine - he was a friend's engineering dad - was taking the piss because I said I liked programming. 2021-05-06T09:28:42Z amirouche: tdammers: +1 2021-05-06T09:29:25Z mdhughes: My Atari 800 emulator says 673877.4174 673877.4174 which is pretty good for 6-byte floats. 2021-05-06T09:30:44Z ChoHag: OTOH a few months ago when my daughter was here while schools were shut, they have programming classes now and I got to saw the tools they're teaching it with. 2021-05-06T09:31:15Z ChoHag: \see\saw\s 2021-05-06T09:31:40Z DGASAU: Anyway, as of today, we have Scratch. 2021-05-06T09:31:47Z ChoHag: Yeah I think that was it. 2021-05-06T09:31:51Z ChoHag: Fucking awful. 2021-05-06T09:32:03Z tdammers: one can do worse though 2021-05-06T09:32:17Z tdammers: the good thing about scratch is that it's awful in fairly obvious ways 2021-05-06T09:32:39Z ChoHag: I made noughts and crosses in it. 2021-05-06T09:32:44Z ChoHag: And something else I can't remember. 2021-05-06T09:32:47Z mdhughes: Yeah, I hate Scratch. At least Python teaches "you type on the keyboard and it does stuff". 2021-05-06T09:32:56Z tdammers: by the time you're reaching the point of learning saturation, it becomes so unwieldy that you will happily accept something like Python or JS or even C# 2021-05-06T09:33:20Z ChoHag: Then I hopped over to the forums to look at what's available and it was ... well I didn't want my daughter going in there. 2021-05-06T09:34:42Z tdammers: my son made stuff in scratch. he's 13 now, and has since graduated to Python, C#, and Minecraft command blocks XD 2021-05-06T09:34:49Z ChoHag: I think it's run by a bunch of academics who clearly have no idea how humans work and have only read the words "social network" in research papers. 2021-05-06T09:35:13Z tdammers: this much I agree with 2021-05-06T09:35:37Z tdammers: it's also a blatant attempt at making programming "attractive" to a horribly distorted idea of what the average six-year-old is like 2021-05-06T09:35:52Z tdammers: "kids love bright colors and round shapes, yes?" 2021-05-06T09:36:00Z DGASAU: mdhughes: dialogue interface is not the only possible and not the only available. 2021-05-06T09:36:04Z ChoHag: Haha spot on. 2021-05-06T09:36:22Z ChoHag: I need coffee. 2021-05-06T09:36:29Z mdhughes: And yet nobody's come up with a better one that anyone uses in 66-ish years. 2021-05-06T09:36:39Z dieggsy: tdammers: lmao, i mean, they kinda do... the issue is thinking that therefore everything must be made to conform to that 2021-05-06T09:36:53Z tdammers: I don't even think it's necessarily wrong 2021-05-06T09:37:01Z DGASAU: mdhughes: that's because you've rigid mind already. 2021-05-06T09:37:01Z dieggsy: mdhughes: a better what 2021-05-06T09:37:08Z dieggsy: tdammers: me neither tbh 2021-05-06T09:37:13Z mdhughes: Arguably Excel if you consider that programming. So like 2 UIs used in programming. 2021-05-06T09:37:33Z DGASAU: mdhughes: even TurboPascal 3 had different default interface. 2021-05-06T09:37:44Z tdammers: kids like my son or your daughter probably don't need it, but we're talking about capturing a large portion of the general population, not the ones who would likely pick up programming anyway regardless of the form and shape in which it presents itself 2021-05-06T09:37:55Z mdhughes: It was still "edit text in a box, hit run". 2021-05-06T09:38:04Z dieggsy: mdhughes: wait, are you praising excel as a programming UI? 2021-05-06T09:38:16Z tdammers: excel is a fine gateway drug into programming 2021-05-06T09:38:25Z mdhughes: dieggsy: I dunno "praise" is the word, but it is a different, heavily-used programming UI. 2021-05-06T09:38:40Z dieggsy: ah ok. well that's certainly true 2021-05-06T09:38:43Z DGASAU: mdhughes: if you want something totally different, there're LabView and PureData. 2021-05-06T09:39:10Z tdammers: so is scratch, minecraft, Dwarf Fortress, the www, WOW, ... 2021-05-06T09:39:14Z dieggsy: tdammers: re: general population, exactly right 2021-05-06T09:39:45Z mdhughes: Notebooks aren't really that different, tho they can be seen as a hybrid of editor and spreadsheet. But you're still typing text in a line, not dragging blocks around. 2021-05-06T09:40:51Z DGASAU: mdhughes: and Max/MSP. 2021-05-06T09:43:14Z dieggsy: there's nothing inherently wrong with dragging blocks around as a very basic foundation to learning logic. hell, people even learn visually at a college level, SICP even draws some blocks for demonstration lol. i think it's how you use it and where you go from there that matters 2021-05-06T09:43:32Z dieggsy: the idea shouldn't be to linger in scratch very long IMO 2021-05-06T09:43:42Z dieggsy: awful or not lol 2021-05-06T09:44:02Z DGASAU: dieggsy: personally, I have no idea, why these people object "dragging blocks." 2021-05-06T09:44:26Z DGASAU: Flowchars and Nassi-Schneiderman diagrams are block-structured. 2021-05-06T09:45:00Z DGASAU: Implement interface a la UMLet, and you're dragging blocks and connectors. 2021-05-06T09:45:05Z srji_ joined #scheme 2021-05-06T09:45:08Z tdammers: dragging blocks is inefficient and unergonomic, at least in existing implementations 2021-05-06T09:45:08Z DGASAU: "Suddenly." 2021-05-06T09:45:13Z tdammers: but that's irrelevant for a new leraner 2021-05-06T09:45:31Z dieggsy: tdammers: that last statement being key 2021-05-06T09:46:05Z tdammers: it's irrelevant for much the same reasons higher-level abstractions and "structure" are somewhat irrelevant. that stuff comes later. 2021-05-06T09:46:11Z DGASAU: tdammers: I'm not sure that a lot of people program at rate of keyboard. 2021-05-06T09:46:32Z ChoHag: Programming isn't done with a keyboard at all. 2021-05-06T09:46:43Z tdammers: ^ 2021-05-06T09:46:44Z ChoHag: Programming is what happens when you're staring into space. 2021-05-06T09:46:49Z dieggsy: they're new learners. it's just a different way to learn (at a very very early age FWIW) if it works for some people, there's nothing wrong with it? 2021-05-06T09:47:04Z tdammers: exactly. pick them up in their comfort zone 2021-05-06T09:47:18Z ChoHag: Scratch's GUI wasn't wrong or the problem with is, it was just awkward and lame. 2021-05-06T09:47:47Z ChoHag: The language itself is crap. The VM it operates on is retarded. 2021-05-06T09:48:21Z DGASAU: As for me Nassi-Schneiderman diagrams look a lot like Ershov's language, only in "tabular form", that is what Germans like so much. 2021-05-06T09:48:31Z dieggsy: besides, the idea of being able to teach the idea of programming as something aside from or thay transcends typing is super valuable and can make it more accessible in many different ways 2021-05-06T09:48:42Z srji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-06T09:48:57Z DGASAU: What is important there is that it teaches structured programming upfront. 2021-05-06T09:49:45Z ChoHag: I don't think that's important. 2021-05-06T09:49:52Z DGASAU: It is. 2021-05-06T09:49:54Z dieggsy: I could barely type at the age of six lol, maybe i was a dumb kid. lol, no, i just had a different process and wasn't exposed to it much i guess. 2021-05-06T09:50:02Z floppy_disk joined #scheme 2021-05-06T09:50:06Z ChoHag: OK. Well. It's not. 2021-05-06T09:50:08Z DGASAU: You don't need to write long spaghetti code and start discipling yourself only afterwards, when you get bitten by some mistake you cannot find. 2021-05-06T09:50:40Z tdammers: are you familiar with the problem-solution-ordering concept? 2021-05-06T09:51:02Z ChoHag: I remember some other kid tried to get me interested in C when I was about 14. 2021-05-06T09:51:23Z ChoHag: Plan? Declare things? Bugger that. I can just go coding stuff. 2021-05-06T09:52:08Z DGASAU: In our time it was rather trivial: you could do in C a lot of things that were hard to do in Pascal and impossible to do in BASIC. 2021-05-06T09:52:12Z ChoHag: Structure became important when I figured out that I needed it rather than being imposed for reasons that made sense only to a compiler (I thought). 2021-05-06T09:52:36Z DGASAU: ChoHag: that's exactly the mindset that Dijkstra was fighting against. 2021-05-06T09:52:54Z ChoHag: Well that's not how people learn stuff. 2021-05-06T09:53:02Z tdammers: indeed. so in that sense, yes, you DO need to write spaghetti code and be bitten by it before you truly understand the purpose of those structure abstractions 2021-05-06T09:53:14Z DGASAU: ChoHag: wrong. 2021-05-06T09:53:23Z ChoHag: That's how you *teach* stuff that to people who possibly don't want to learn it but have to for some reason. 2021-05-06T09:53:55Z tdammers: yes, and that's what I was getting at when I said it says something about Dijkstra's view on teaching 2021-05-06T09:53:59Z DGASAU: There's no need to get hole in your head instead of putting red-white stripe around dangerous zone and wear helmet. 2021-05-06T09:54:24Z ChoHag: Learning is through play. That's what play is for. That's what play *is*. 2021-05-06T09:54:47Z ChoHag: That's why kittens torment their food. They play with it in a safe environment where they can make mistakes and not die. 2021-05-06T09:54:53Z DGASAU: There's Ershov's language for it. 2021-05-06T09:54:57Z DGASAU: There's Logo for it. 2021-05-06T09:54:59Z tdammers: give them BASIC. give them Scratch. but also be ready to give them Python or Scheme or C or whatever it is that has solutions to the pains they run into when they do 2021-05-06T09:55:01Z DGASAU: There's Scratch for it. 2021-05-06T09:55:20Z ChoHag: tdammers: I gave my daughter OpenBSD. 2021-05-06T09:55:31Z ChoHag: To make it a little easier on her I had .xsession open a terminal. 2021-05-06T09:55:32Z dieggsy: nice. 2021-05-06T09:55:48Z DGASAU: What is important, people don't get hole in skull while trying to make something more complex than solving quadratic equation. 2021-05-06T09:55:49Z floppy_disk: openbsd is not allowed on savannah due to the use of the word `open' 2021-05-06T09:55:59Z dieggsy: lmao 2021-05-06T10:00:30Z massn00b[m]: lmfao 2021-05-06T10:00:58Z mdhughes: BASIC won't put a hole in your skull. C will. 2021-05-06T10:01:55Z mdhughes: Of course, with BASIC you could always just write some ASM in DATA, POKE it where you want, and USR to it. Free to do anything. 2021-05-06T10:02:26Z tdammers: mdhughes: do you have a moment to talk about our Dark Lord And Savior, PHP? 2021-05-06T10:02:40Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-06T10:03:18Z dieggsy: oh no 2021-05-06T10:04:37Z floppy_disk: oh no 2021-05-06T10:05:24Z amirouche: oh no 2021-05-06T10:07:02Z DGASAU: oh yeah! 2021-05-06T10:07:22Z dieggsy: jajaja 2021-05-06T10:07:27Z amirouche: before 17, I tried various flavour of BASIC and did not find it appealing, PHP3 helped me. YMMV. 2021-05-06T10:08:06Z DGASAU: How does it sort numbers, BTW? 2021-05-06T10:08:12Z amirouche: FWIW, I tried programming without supervision except a book in english and source code. 2021-05-06T10:08:15Z DGASAU: sort([2, 11, 3])? 2021-05-06T10:08:36Z mdhughes: You write your own sort routine. You need to *learn* something! 2021-05-06T10:08:45Z mdhughes: And what you learn is bubblesort sucks. 2021-05-06T10:08:49Z floppy_disk: use SQLite in place of PHP 2021-05-06T10:09:17Z DGASAU knew a lot of opcodes for K580 and K1801 by heart at some time. 2021-05-06T10:10:02Z DGASAU: floppy_disk: reminds me time when it wasn't trivial in CHICKEN to get time and date functions. 2021-05-06T10:10:12Z DGASAU: floppy_disk: I called Postgres for it. 2021-05-06T10:10:14Z mdhughes: On the Atari I literally would type my ASM as ATASCII chars into a string, including most numbers without looking them up, then would USR(ADR(a$)) to call it. 2021-05-06T10:10:28Z tdammers: DGASAU: now there's a bad habit that you had to unlearn 2021-05-06T10:10:31Z floppy_disk: DGASAU: a very good and portable lightweight solution 2021-05-06T10:11:06Z DGASAU: floppy_disk: sure, I had connection to PG anyway. 2021-05-06T10:11:13Z floppy_disk: yes 2021-05-06T10:12:43Z dieggsy: i wish search engines didn't try to guess what i meant and just searched for what i typed lol 2021-05-06T10:12:51Z dieggsy: not sure either google or duckduckgo have an option to turn that off 2021-05-06T10:13:05Z floppy_disk: just use www/links 2021-05-06T10:13:32Z indathrone: I started with Atari Basic in 1983, which let me peek and poke memory, e.g., to utilize display list interrupts or vblank interrupts in graphics programming, which led me to learn a bit of assembler, which was useful when I got to Fortran and C a few years later. None of that prevented me from finding SICP and then love-at-first-sight Scheme. It isn't clear where the brain damage was incurred. 2021-05-06T10:13:35Z dieggsy: floppy_disk: wat 2021-05-06T10:13:36Z ChoHag: ddg does pay some attention to ""s. 2021-05-06T10:14:17Z dieggsy: ChoHag: well, so does google. but i just search e.g. physlock colors with no quotes and it went "including search results for psylocke colors" hmmm, is that what i typed in DDG? lol 2021-05-06T10:27:25Z brendyyn joined #scheme 2021-05-06T10:33:16Z amirouche: Does mit/scheme support POSIX threads? The rumor says yes (http://web.mit.edu/benmv/6.001/www/threads.txt) but apparantly it is undocumented. 2021-05-06T10:35:13Z amirouche: on an unrelated noted, mit/scheme is tested on netbsd (https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/) 2021-05-06T10:44:12Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T10:44:14Z floppy_disk: is mit scheme r7rs? 2021-05-06T10:45:30Z mdhughes: It's not even fully R5RS, is it? But it works OK, little weird in places. 2021-05-06T10:46:44Z amirouche: r7rs support is wip, and undocumented. 2021-05-06T10:47:27Z mdhughes: Also it runs on almost nothing now. No Windows, no Mac. Soon no BSD or Linux, because they'll harden their memory systems. 2021-05-06T10:47:52Z ecraven: mdhughes: I think it implements almost everything in r5rs. r7rs has almost full support, except for the `define-library' form (which works in some cases, but not e.g. from the repl) 2021-05-06T10:48:17Z ecraven: not entirely up to date: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-coverage/ 2021-05-06T10:48:55Z ecraven: it is the most "interactive" and REPL-focused of all Schemes I've tried, by far 2021-05-06T10:49:36Z floppy_disk: oh no it doesn't run on anything 2021-05-06T10:49:46Z mdhughes: ? MIT's mostly used from the bundled edwin. Chez's the one with the amazing REPL. 2021-05-06T10:50:49Z ecraven: mdhughes: you can do many thing in MIT that chez just cannot do. 2021-05-06T10:51:04Z mdhughes: ? 2021-05-06T10:51:10Z ecraven: for example, you can "enter" an environment (~ library), look at all the bindings (even non-exported ones), and even edit them 2021-05-06T10:51:11Z floppy_disk: so many question marks 2021-05-06T10:51:20Z ecraven: you have full support for restarts (in the common lisp sense) 2021-05-06T10:51:21Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-06T10:51:59Z mdhughes: You can call/cc in most any Scheme. 2021-05-06T10:52:25Z ecraven: yes, and which of all those Schemes automatically does that for built-in functions in the right places? 2021-05-06T10:52:30Z ecraven: because otherwise, it's *not* the same :P 2021-05-06T10:53:01Z ecraven: I'm not saying Chez *cannot* do this, it's just that at the moment, it *doesn't* 2021-05-06T10:53:06Z mdhughes: Why would I need to? Assume I'm trying to write production code, not poke around in the source, which I could do with a text editor. 2021-05-06T10:53:32Z ecraven: well, to each his/her own... 2021-05-06T10:55:19Z ecraven: looking at source code is a very different process than using something like Medley or Open Genera (which is the kind of interactive environment I'm talking about). 2021-05-06T10:55:33Z ecraven: m 2021-05-06T10:55:42Z mdhughes: OK, but you can edit and debug your code in Chez just fine. 2021-05-06T10:55:59Z ecraven: Medley is very interesting, as it had good tools to edit source code (see https://interlisp.org) 2021-05-06T10:56:03Z ecraven: mdhughes: as 2021-05-06T10:56:14Z ecraven: as I said, you just cannot edit non-exported bindings in any way 2021-05-06T10:56:28Z ecraven: so "just fine" depends on what the editor wants 2021-05-06T10:56:58Z ecraven: I'm not saying that approach is superior, just saying that it's not something that Chez supports well (for entirely valid reasons) 2021-05-06T10:57:15Z ecraven: not every system can fulfil every need 2021-05-06T10:57:28Z amirouche: except ruse scheme ! 2021-05-06T10:58:03Z floppy_disk: except CHICKEN scheme ! 2021-05-06T10:58:31Z ecraven: floppy_disk: chicken does require a working c compiler on the system it's running on, right? (for developing code, not for running it) 2021-05-06T10:59:20Z floppy_disk: ecraven: it needs a c compiler to compile the code 2021-05-06T11:02:54Z DGASAU: indathrone: You miss the point. 2021-05-06T11:03:10Z DGASAU: indathrone: You consider only _your_ personal example. 2021-05-06T11:04:19Z DGASAU: indathrone: Dijkstra considers some selection that he holds as representative for some group, e.g. university students for some specializations. 2021-05-06T11:12:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-06T11:12:35Z mdhughes: It's almost like I've been saying that not every language has to be for every purpose. 2021-05-06T11:17:22Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-06T11:17:29Z floppy_disk: impossible 2021-05-06T11:17:33Z floppy_disk: every language MUST be for every purpose! 2021-05-06T11:17:37Z floppy_disk: this includes SQL and PHP 2021-05-06T11:24:46Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-06T11:26:22Z tdammers: I'm gonna rephrase my Dijkstra criticism here: if you present your students with BASIC, and that renders them "unteachable", then you are a lousy teacher 2021-05-06T11:27:02Z indathrone: DGASAU: I think that you may be missing the point. My personal example is not special or unique; a lot of us had a similar trajectory from BASIC to assembly language to more sophisticated languages, passing through other programming paradigms along the way. It is an extreme simplification to say that starting with BASIC determines the future of a programmers journey. 2021-05-06T11:28:20Z DGASAU: indathrone: that's selective argument, you exclude those people who were not fascinated by assembly or Scheme yet ended in software engineering. 2021-05-06T11:28:31Z DGASAU: Or some other related profession. 2021-05-06T11:29:09Z indathrone: DGASAU: Huh? Where did I exclude anyone? 2021-05-06T11:29:55Z DGASAU: indathrone: ? 2021-05-06T11:29:59Z mdhughes: BASIC didn't harm any of them. Dijkstra was making jokes (based on his specific needs, but you can't generalize from that to anyone else). 2021-05-06T11:30:42Z DGASAU: indathrone: what about those people who didn't take path similar to yours, yet ended in profession that involves writing code? 2021-05-06T11:32:14Z indathrone: DGASAU: I never said that mine was the only path. You said that I only considered my personal example; I only pointed out that my personal example is representative of a significant segment of the programming population. 2021-05-06T11:33:11Z DGASAU: indathrone: even if you consider my example, it is a) different from yours; b) still not typical one. 2021-05-06T11:35:11Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T11:42:58Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-05-06T12:01:22Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-06T12:10:39Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-06T12:10:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-06T12:10:58Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-06T12:10:59Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-06T12:15:11Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T12:28:07Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-06T12:42:21Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:12:39Z lockywolf quit (Excess Flood) 2021-05-06T13:13:22Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:13:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:17:09Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T13:17:41Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T13:21:00Z zzappie quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-06T13:21:12Z zap1 joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:21:12Z zap1 is now known as zzappie 2021-05-06T13:25:22Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:27:44Z floppy_disk quit (Quit: you can see this?) 2021-05-06T13:32:45Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:34:27Z lloda` joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:34:46Z Formbi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T13:35:58Z Formbi joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:36:28Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-06T13:38:26Z lloda quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T13:39:07Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:39:57Z lockywolf quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-06T13:40:05Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-06T13:40:47Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:40:51Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-06T13:42:08Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:42:08Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-06T13:42:08Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:43:32Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:43:38Z notzmv is now known as Guest39486 2021-05-06T13:44:21Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T13:45:57Z Guest39486 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T13:46:34Z notzmv- joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:47:13Z notzmv- is now known as notzmv 2021-05-06T13:48:01Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T13:48:50Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:51:17Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:51:23Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:52:20Z lockywolf quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-06T13:53:09Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:54:03Z oxum quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-06T13:55:01Z amirouche: re coop and handling concurrency http://www.usingcsp.com/ (includes proofs apparantly, I just skimmed so far) 2021-05-06T13:56:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-06T13:57:10Z lockywolf quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-06T13:57:59Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-06T14:02:45Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-06T14:03:42Z logand`` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-05-06T14:06:43Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-05-06T14:09:13Z wasamasa: https://old.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/n64nf8/may_2021_what_are_you_up_to_schemers/ 2021-05-06T14:13:33Z jcowan: "Basic" isn't just one language: it has evolved steadily. The earliest versions did not even have the INPUT statement: all data had to be in the program using DATA statements. 2021-05-06T14:13:34Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-06T14:14:40Z jcowan: The Basics on microcomputers tended to be approximately version 4 2021-05-06T14:14:52Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T14:15:11Z zooey joined #scheme 2021-05-06T14:24:58Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-06T14:25:56Z mdhughes: Most were MS BASIC from the Altair, except TRS-80 Level 1 was Tiny BASIC, Apple had Woz's integer BASIC, Atari had a variant, ZX had a variant. But by mid-80s, everyone had structured BASIC (pre-ANSI) as an option. 2021-05-06T14:35:05Z brendyyn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-06T14:46:04Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-06T14:47:32Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T14:49:22Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-06T15:22:31Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T15:23:46Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-06T15:23:47Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-06T15:23:47Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-06T15:26:48Z Formbi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T15:27:38Z Formbi joined #scheme 2021-05-06T15:30:42Z lockywolf quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-06T15:31:31Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-06T15:59:33Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-06T16:10:21Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-06T16:10:54Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-06T16:26:47Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-05-06T16:33:50Z Zipheir: A language that launched a thousand games. 2021-05-06T16:34:08Z Zipheir: (Probably a major understatement.) 2021-05-06T16:40:57Z mdhughes: Say 10% of home computer users learned enough BASIC to do something, and 1% made a game, there were ~100M worldwide in the '80s, that's 100,000 games? 2021-05-06T16:41:34Z mdhughes: Mostly just dumb little things, but magazines never had problems finding longer games & programs. 2021-05-06T16:48:39Z siraben: Zipheir: "the use of BASIC cripples the mind" :P 2021-05-06T16:50:32Z Zipheir: siraben: I still don't really understand that opinion, even WRT the 80s versions of BASIC. The language itself is structured, has pretty clear syntax, and is in some dialects strongly-typed. 2021-05-06T16:51:58Z Zipheir: Well, some BASICs had higher-level control flow, but I suppose GOTO-driven programming was the most common. 2021-05-06T16:53:38Z lockywolf quit (Excess Flood) 2021-05-06T16:53:39Z LeoNerd: QBasic had the most flexible loop constructs, the generic loop with a break on true/false at start/end 2021-05-06T16:55:27Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-06T16:57:01Z mdhughes: He was originally bitching in "GOTO Considered Harmful" about unstructured FORTRAN and BASIC (1964). Which was often used without any attempt at organization. 2021-05-06T16:57:41Z mdhughes: But many BASIC books of the '70s & '80s taught structured programming even with Tiny BASIC-equivalents. 2021-05-06T16:57:53Z Zipheir: Indeed, I find it a scary experience to try to read some programs from that era. (See The Elements of Programming Style for examples.) 2021-05-06T16:58:30Z Zipheir: Right. If anything, BASIC probably had a major role in popularizing structure programming. 2021-05-06T17:00:07Z Zipheir: The abstraction level is lower than what LISP and ML offered at the time, but that's because functional language almost always offer higher-level abstractions than imperative languages. 2021-05-06T17:01:16Z mdhughes: And that was an advantage for BASIC: It often ran within 10x ASM speed, and 1-2x RAM. Every "nice" language of the time was ridiculously large & slow for an 8-bit computer with 4-16K RAM. 2021-05-06T17:06:18Z dpk: i'd like to benchmark P-Lisp against BASIC on the Apple II 2021-05-06T17:06:40Z dpk: P-Lisp wasn't a half bad system, by the looks of things. iirc it had basic image support and could do TCO 2021-05-06T17:06:51Z aeth: mdhughes: No. I don't doubt your guestimate that 1% made a game, but... probably 50% set out to make a game 2021-05-06T17:07:34Z dpk: (although if i were to get an old micro, i'd probably get a BBC Micro first, and i don't think there was ever a Lisp for that) 2021-05-06T17:09:38Z Zipheir: dpk: Wow, I never knew about that BBC program. 2021-05-06T17:10:04Z Zipheir goes to look up episodes of _The Computer Programme_ 2021-05-06T17:11:04Z dpk: the BBC Computer Literacy Project was fantastic 2021-05-06T17:12:16Z dpk: that it got cancelled and Microsoft Office subsequently got a monopoly on computer education in UK schools for nearly 30 years is a great tragedy 2021-05-06T17:12:51Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T17:13:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-06T17:14:55Z Zipheir: Such an endearing logo those computers had https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro#/media/File:BBC_owl.svg 2021-05-06T17:18:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-06T17:19:39Z Zipheir: dpk: I've heard impressive things about the direction of the UK's CS education program these days, however. It seems like Simon Peyton Jones has had some success with his "computing without computers" curriculum ideas. 2021-05-06T17:20:19Z siraben: Zipheir: Dijkstra was probably referring to GOTO 2021-05-06T17:20:37Z dpk: yeah, i was really worried that it would turn out like maths (see Lockhart’s Lament) 2021-05-06T17:20:48Z dpk: but they got the right people in, it seems 2021-05-06T17:22:09Z dpk: i saw an early version of the BBC’s attempt to revive the Computer Literacy Project in the UK, and it was basically a rebranded version of Eclipse where the kids would learn Java. i was really worried that it would look like that everywhere 2021-05-06T17:22:59Z dpk: i made my thoughts on that version known to the project leader. i doubt it was down to me they went back to the drawing board, but i’m glad they did 2021-05-06T17:23:22Z dpk: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Bit 2021-05-06T17:26:25Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-06T17:29:36Z dpk: i’ve got Conrad Wolfram’s book on maths education reform on order at the bookshop as well, looking forward to reading it 2021-05-06T17:31:26Z Zipheir: The Micro Bit project looks fantastic. Although I'm disappointed that it's Python they've selected as the bundled language. 2021-05-06T17:34:08Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2021-05-06T17:34:59Z Zipheir: Allegedly there's a Lisp and a FORTH available for it, as well. 2021-05-06T17:42:44Z Noisytoot: Zipheir, I don't think the microbit includes any programming language by default 2021-05-06T17:43:32Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T17:44:03Z Noisytoot: Zipheir, According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Bit it can run both Forth and Lisp (and several other languages) 2021-05-06T17:46:03Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's what I was referencing. 2021-05-06T17:46:46Z Zipheir: amirouche: I've only skimmed your coop ideas (and CML), but I wonder if the work around "gochans" could be integrated? 2021-05-06T17:47:32Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-06T17:51:46Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T18:05:16Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-06T18:06:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-06T18:09:10Z dpk: it would be interesting to write a Scheme for the Micro Bit 2021-05-06T18:09:32Z dpk: i've been looking at ARM assembly language lately and considering writing a compiler, as it looks like a really nice ISA 2021-05-06T18:09:38Z dpk: although i was looking at AArch64 2021-05-06T18:10:08Z dpk: but the 32-bit version has some nice features they took out of the 64-bit version which might make implementing a Lisp easier 2021-05-06T18:10:49Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-06T18:10:56Z notzmv is now known as Guest97962 2021-05-06T18:11:15Z dpk: (e.g., as i recall, arithmetic instructions can be told to work on only part of a word. so arithmetic on tagged pointers isn't shift, do arithmetic, shift back and put the tag back, but just 'add only these bits of this word') 2021-05-06T18:13:11Z dpk: yeah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Other_features 2021-05-06T18:14:43Z Zipheir: That would be a fun project. 2021-05-06T18:19:15Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-06T18:29:15Z amirouche: Zipheir: are you refering to http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/gochan? 2021-05-06T18:29:45Z Zipheir: amirouche: Yes. IIRC jcowan was talking about possibly SRFIfying them. 2021-05-06T18:29:58Z jcowan: Yes 2021-05-06T18:30:36Z Zipheir: amirouche: FWIW I like the idea of an alternative to threads for concurrent Scheme programs. 2021-05-06T18:32:09Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-06T18:32:24Z jcowan: IMO gochans are easier to understand and use than threads and gochannels, though that may be just me being thick. The prototype of gochans is Unix pipes, which I have understood since before I heard much about concurrent programming. 2021-05-06T18:33:03Z jcowan: Note also that gochans can be buffered or unbuffered, and it's easier for unbuffered channels to deadlock 2021-05-06T18:33:26Z Zipheir: It *seems* that this CML/coop stuff speaks a similar language to gochannels. 2021-05-06T18:33:53Z dpk: buffered means they work like Unix pipes where your program hangs when it tries to write to a channel which the system thinks is 'full'? 2021-05-06T18:33:59Z dpk: or is that unbuffered? 2021-05-06T18:34:21Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-06T18:34:36Z amirouche: Zipheir: preliminary answer is yes. I will add to the todo: implement chicken's gochans. 2021-05-06T18:34:53Z Zipheir: 'Buffered' give you the asynchronous behavior. 2021-05-06T18:34:57Z Zipheir: s/give/&s/ 2021-05-06T18:35:17Z dpk: there's also Gambit's thread mailbox extensions to SRFI 18, fwiw 2021-05-06T18:35:36Z dpk: aaaaaargh http://gambitscheme.org 2021-05-06T18:35:54Z dpk grumbles 2021-05-06T18:36:41Z amirouche: with a buffer, producer (resp. consumer) means that it does not wait / hang for a consumer (resp. producer). 2021-05-06T18:37:02Z amirouche: dpk: so yes. but I am not sure about UNIX pipes semantic. 2021-05-06T18:37:06Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-05-06T18:37:22Z dpk: https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit.html#Procedure_thread-send et seq. 2021-05-06T18:37:39Z madage joined #scheme 2021-05-06T18:37:48Z xelxebar_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-06T18:40:37Z amirouche: is there a difference between gochannels and gochans? 2021-05-06T18:40:49Z amirouche: does those two words refer to different things? 2021-05-06T18:40:55Z Zipheir: ± "nel" 2021-05-06T18:41:32Z Zipheir: AFAIK they refer to the same concept. 2021-05-06T18:42:31Z amirouche: coop has no notion of open / closed channel, but it can be built on top. 2021-05-06T18:44:02Z Zipheir: Ah, yes, that's a difference. 2021-05-06T18:46:35Z amirouche: a coop channel is unbuffered. 2021-05-06T18:48:47Z Zipheir: Well, that's fine as a substrate for buffered channels. 2021-05-06T18:49:27Z Zipheir: Presumably they have a similar relationship that UNIX I/O and stdio have. 2021-05-06T18:49:43Z Zipheir: s/that/to that which/ 2021-05-06T18:51:28Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T18:51:52Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-06T19:07:23Z Guest97962 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T19:08:01Z notzmv- joined #scheme 2021-05-06T19:28:22Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-06T19:50:37Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T19:51:41Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T19:52:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-06T19:52:58Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-06T19:52:59Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-06T19:54:31Z evdubs_ is now known as evdubs 2021-05-06T19:56:37Z nisstyre quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-06T19:57:02Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-06T19:57:15Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2021-05-06T20:05:27Z jcowan: Oops! For "IMO gochans are easier to understand and use than threads and gochannels" read "IMO gochans are easier to understand and use than CML". 2021-05-06T20:05:55Z jcowan: CML is strictly more powerful, but I don't know if it needs to be. 2021-05-06T20:12:31Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-06T20:13:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-06T20:13:29Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-06T20:15:18Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2021-05-06T20:16:10Z skapata quit (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. 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Anywhere.) 2021-05-07T01:24:45Z tryte_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T01:26:34Z dsp quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-07T01:26:58Z nmeum quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-05-07T01:28:56Z nmeum joined #scheme 2021-05-07T01:33:04Z dsp joined #scheme 2021-05-07T01:35:52Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T01:36:37Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-05-07T01:37:36Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T01:40:12Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T01:48:46Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-07T01:49:40Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T01:52:57Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-07T02:02:11Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-07T02:02:13Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-07T02:03:33Z tryte quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T02:03:40Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T02:03:58Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-07T02:04:23Z nmeum quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-07T02:04:45Z dsp quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-07T02:05:50Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-07T02:07:07Z nmeum joined #scheme 2021-05-07T02:07:12Z theca quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-07T02:11:22Z dsp joined #scheme 2021-05-07T02:12:19Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-05-07T02:26:10Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T02:27:39Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-07T02:31:57Z phillbush: Do we have people doing SICP here? 2021-05-07T02:32:07Z phillbush: s/doing/reading/ 2021-05-07T02:38:12Z Zipheir: Probably. And many who have in the past. 2021-05-07T02:38:57Z Zipheir: phillbush: Feel free to ask SICP-related questions. 2021-05-07T02:41:49Z phillbush: Just added my solution for exercise 1.13 here: http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-1.13 2021-05-07T02:42:38Z phillbush: It's a quite big exercise, requires no scheme but a lot of math. 2021-05-07T02:44:12Z phillbush: I had read it before but stopped at the middle of chapter 2. 2021-05-07T02:45:00Z Zipheir: phillbush: Thanks for posting it (with such nice presentation) to SchemeWiki. 2021-05-07T02:47:16Z phillbush: I was using racket then, I'm using chibi-scheme now. 2021-05-07T02:47:16Z phillbush: I just heard about SRFI 216 and 203. 2021-05-07T02:47:36Z phillbush: Is there any implementation that supports those SRFI? 2021-05-07T02:48:16Z Zipheir: They're very recent, so they probably don't ship with any Scheme yet. But those SRFIs have portable implementations which you can clone off GitHub. 2021-05-07T02:48:41Z Zipheir: e.g. https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-216 2021-05-07T02:48:49Z phillbush: I just need to (load) them? 2021-05-07T02:49:31Z phillbush: Is there anything like C's -I flag where I can specify a directory with files to (import) from? 2021-05-07T02:50:26Z Zipheir: Given chibi, you could copy srfi/ into your working directory and (import (srfi NNN)). 2021-05-07T02:51:05Z Zipheir: Ah, yeah, chibi also uses -I. 2021-05-07T02:51:18Z aquijoule__ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T02:51:51Z phillbush: Thanks, I will check chibi's manual. 2021-05-07T02:52:11Z Zipheir: I usually install chibi to my home dir and copy all of the SRFI implementations to ~/share/chibi/srfi 2021-05-07T02:52:32Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-07T02:53:32Z aquijoule_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-07T02:53:42Z phillbush: The manual says there is a CHIBI_MODULE_PATH I can set. 2021-05-07T02:54:11Z Zipheir: Yeah, that works. 2021-05-07T02:54:22Z phillbush: I wish there was a SRFI to unify implementations interface (environment variables, command line options, etc). 2021-05-07T02:57:18Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-07T03:01:56Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T03:03:40Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-05-07T03:04:13Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T03:16:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T03:18:54Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T03:19:25Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-05-07T03:20:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T03:25:35Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T03:25:48Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-05-07T03:32:40Z indathrone joined #scheme 2021-05-07T03:46:32Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-07T04:03:50Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-07T04:11:11Z ChoHag: Was is it about programming that makes smart people so incredibly dumb? 2021-05-07T04:26:33Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T04:27:10Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-07T04:46:14Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-07T04:52:10Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T04:52:33Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T05:08:30Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T05:17:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T05:21:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-07T05:37:00Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Anyone using geiser? Or its there a better tool? 2021-05-07T08:09:59Z nij: I realize everytime after I break out from an infinite loop by `C-c C-c`, it starts acting very weird. 2021-05-07T08:11:34Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:11:34Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-05-07T08:11:34Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:12:59Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:14:14Z floppy_disk: geiser seems [citation needed] to be the most popular for this purpose 2021-05-07T08:14:38Z nij: I just.. got the same bug in `$ guile` in my terminal. 2021-05-07T08:14:44Z nij: So it's not geiser to blaim. 2021-05-07T08:14:56Z nij: So weird.. may be I should not interrupt the loop. 2021-05-07T08:20:41Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:20:51Z amirouche: anyone with a recent version of guile 3.0.1+ can try the following program : https://dpaste.com/68DLGDSY5 2021-05-07T08:21:11Z amirouche: on my side it run forever... 2021-05-07T08:21:15Z amirouche: on my side it runs forever... 2021-05-07T08:21:41Z amirouche: it works on chicken, gambit, chez and ruse.. 2021-05-07T08:21:59Z amirouche: ruse with chez target. but I figured it is too slow. 2021-05-07T08:22:10Z amirouche: anyway, let me know if it works. 2021-05-07T08:22:14Z amirouche: with guile. 2021-05-07T08:23:21Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-07T08:24:36Z wasamasa: giotto 2021-05-07T08:25:21Z amirouche: ? 2021-05-07T08:26:03Z wasamasa: giota 2021-05-07T08:26:42Z amirouche: it is NOT good code, but it runs.. 2021-05-07T08:26:58Z wasamasa: you can make a schememe with that 2021-05-07T08:27:16Z wasamasa: pick a picture of giotto, edit giota over it, ????, PROFIT 2021-05-07T08:31:46Z amirouche: that giotto? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giotto 2021-05-07T08:32:05Z amirouche: the painter? 2021-05-07T08:32:24Z wasamasa: the confection 2021-05-07T08:32:26Z iv4nshm4k0v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T08:32:46Z srji_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-07T08:32:52Z ecraven: https://www.cosslodkiego.com.pl/eng_pm_Ferrero-Giotto-1963_1.jpg 2021-05-07T08:32:55Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-07T08:33:32Z dpk: there's also ecraven's SLIME swank for various Schemes 2021-05-07T08:33:47Z dpk: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-swank 2021-05-07T08:34:11Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:34:11Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-07T08:34:11Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:41:53Z GZJ0X_ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:42:04Z GZJ0X_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-07T08:42:21Z srji joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:46:17Z taw10: nij: for NeoVim, Conjure supports Guile, MIT Scheme and Racket: https://github.com/Olical/conjure 2021-05-07T08:46:51Z floppy_disk: no CHICKEN? 2021-05-07T08:48:02Z taw10: Not yet, but new languages are easy to add. I added Guile in a few evenings of work starting from no knowledge of Conjure or the language it's written in (Fennel) 2021-05-07T08:51:02Z nij: thanks :) 2021-05-07T08:53:23Z abralek joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:57:20Z iv4nshm4k0v joined #scheme 2021-05-07T08:57:59Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T08:58:20Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-07T09:19:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T09:20:16Z nij left #scheme 2021-05-07T09:23:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T09:23:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-07T09:23:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-07T09:34:43Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-05-07T09:45:39Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-07T09:51:30Z floppy_disk quit (Quit: CHICKEN) 2021-05-07T10:06:11Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T10:09:57Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T10:12:09Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-07T10:18:05Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T10:19:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T10:19:20Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-07T10:19:21Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T10:34:45Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T10:36:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T10:36:02Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-07T10:36:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T10:58:30Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-07T11:20:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T11:24:41Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-07T11:38:43Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-07T11:38:57Z zzappie quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-07T11:40:24Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T11:58:47Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-07T11:59:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T12:03:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T12:14:39Z zzappie quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-07T12:14:40Z theothornhill joined #scheme 2021-05-07T12:37:12Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-07T12:37:57Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-07T12:40:21Z lloda` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1.92)) 2021-05-07T12:40:25Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T12:40:40Z lloda joined #scheme 2021-05-07T12:41:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T12:41:43Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-07T12:41:43Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T12:52:46Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T12:59:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:03:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-07T13:03:56Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-07T13:04:50Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:05:50Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:15:40Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-07T13:21:15Z amirouche: I made a tiny benchmark of call/cc with the following program: https://dpaste.com/68DLGDSY5 2021-05-07T13:22:00Z amirouche: cyclone scheme: 36s 2021-05-07T13:22:34Z amirouche: using the official docker image. 2021-05-07T13:22:43Z amirouche: ruse scheme: 20s 2021-05-07T13:23:49Z amirouche: naive cps trampoline that target a subset of Scheme running on top of Chez. letrec* is the naive implementation. There is not lambda lifting (if that matters) 2021-05-07T13:24:14Z amirouche: gambit scheme: 16s 2021-05-07T13:24:35Z amirouche: chez scheme: 3s 2021-05-07T13:25:05Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T13:25:07Z amirouche: with call/1cc it goes down to 2s 2021-05-07T13:26:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:26:22Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-07T13:26:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:27:06Z amirouche: with ruse I can target nodejs too, I can compute fibonacci and factorial. The same scheme program after transpilation to a subset of scheme that runs fine with Chez, when translated to JavaScript will crash nodejs. 2021-05-07T13:28:01Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-07T13:28:09Z amirouche: also those timing include startup time which is only relevant in the case of Chez which will compile on-the-fly.. 2021-05-07T13:28:18Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:28:56Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:29:01Z oxum quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-07T13:30:56Z amirouche: chicken clocks at 26s so better than cyclone, but less than ruse. 2021-05-07T13:31:18Z amirouche: I did not try mit/scheme (it is available in ubuntu 20.04?) 2021-05-07T13:32:33Z jcowan: Nice name 2021-05-07T13:33:00Z amirouche: ty :D 2021-05-07T13:33:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:34:03Z jcowan: Soon all the good names will be gone and people will have to start using suitable words from other languages 2021-05-07T13:34:31Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:35:10Z oxum quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-07T13:37:19Z amirouche: regarding guile I was said to use https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Prompt-Primitives.html#index-call_002dwith_002dprompt 2021-05-07T13:37:25Z amirouche: but I am too lazy to do it. 2021-05-07T13:37:30Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T13:37:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:44:45Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T13:46:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:46:03Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-07T13:46:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T13:47:18Z amirouche: oh racket r6rs clocks at only 10s 2021-05-07T13:47:26Z amirouche: racket cs 8.1 2021-05-07T13:50:23Z foof: darn it, someone used the name ruse? that was the name of my unpublished compiler... 2021-05-07T13:56:26Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-07T14:00:16Z amirouche: foof: you can re-use it but some archived rust interpreter use that name too. 2021-05-07T14:01:02Z amirouche: fwiw, I thought about the name "ruse" alone and before everybody! 2021-05-07T14:04:30Z dpk: before it was cool 2021-05-07T14:10:24Z mdhughes: I have an obscure name saved for if I ever feel like making a new Scheme, which STOP NOBODY NEEDS ANOTHER SCHEME not that that'll stop anyone. 2021-05-07T14:22:35Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-05-07T14:23:50Z oxum quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-07T14:24:20Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:01:55Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T15:03:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:03:12Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-07T15:03:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:14:07Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:16:44Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-07T15:22:09Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-07T15:22:53Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:29:46Z mns quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-07T15:31:08Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:34:08Z amirouche: mdhughes: do you feel alright? 2021-05-07T15:34:11Z amirouche: :) 2021-05-07T15:34:30Z mdhughes: Sure, I haven't started making another Scheme. 2021-05-07T15:35:12Z mns joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:37:20Z mdhughes: Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SECu1fR0dWE 2021-05-07T15:38:15Z amirouche: a lisp that targets javascript will have probably as much success as clojure. 2021-05-07T15:38:48Z dpk: depends how well it does it ;-) 2021-05-07T15:39:02Z dpk: there's already ClojureScript which has, afaict, failed to take off in any significant way 2021-05-07T15:39:14Z wasamasa: yeah, it's inconvenient to use 2021-05-07T15:39:30Z mdhughes: There's a couple of those already! Spock (coincidence or PRECOGNITION?!), and Gambit has a JS backend. 2021-05-07T15:39:34Z wasamasa: some stumbling blocks aside, JS is good enough 2021-05-07T15:39:44Z wasamasa: more ergonomic than all the lisps 2021-05-07T15:40:11Z mdhughes: I do like the idea of compiling to JS, I just haven't liked the compile-debug cycle on the couple I've tried. 2021-05-07T15:40:24Z wasamasa: I've only tried CLJS and SPOCK though 2021-05-07T15:40:43Z mdhughes: Especially if I could then use Canvas and WebGL, the Scheme GUI problem is solved. 2021-05-07T15:41:11Z amirouche: well none of the scheme I tried (i did not try clojurescript) have all the features I want or need. 2021-05-07T15:41:31Z amirouche: also i have no long term interest in using nodejs. 2021-05-07T15:41:49Z amirouche: nodejs or the browser or relying on javascript et al. 2021-05-07T15:41:55Z amirouche: mdhughes: neat video! 2021-05-07T15:43:24Z amirouche: dpk: yes, but unlike clojure, it does tie the compiler to the jvm, also wasm.. 2021-05-07T15:43:39Z amirouche: does not tie 2021-05-07T15:44:01Z amirouche: in other words full stack scheme on js (like I planned to do with Gambit) 2021-05-07T15:44:15Z amirouche: (at least that was one of the plans) 2021-05-07T15:44:36Z wasamasa: well 2021-05-07T15:44:45Z wasamasa: how is it going to run without node or the browser or JS 2021-05-07T15:44:54Z wasamasa: even wasm needs a suitable runtime and JS APIs 2021-05-07T15:45:02Z mdhughes: Node? 2021-05-07T15:45:21Z wasamasa: node can give you that, yes 2021-05-07T15:45:27Z amirouche: wasamasa: for my project, i the plan is to stick to chez. 2021-05-07T15:45:37Z wasamasa: node can run wasm 2021-05-07T15:45:56Z amirouche: wasm solve the c ffi problem more or less. 2021-05-07T15:45:58Z wasamasa: same with browsers 2021-05-07T15:46:04Z wasamasa: does it really? 2021-05-07T15:46:22Z wasamasa: because I suspect all the common implementations embrace C 2021-05-07T15:46:23Z amirouche: theorically yes, also upstream can be willing to produce wasm binaries, that you can just ship! 2021-05-07T15:46:38Z wasamasa: I mean, I'm not too worried you're going overboard with this 2021-05-07T15:46:44Z amirouche: (the end of view-source) 2021-05-07T15:46:47Z wasamasa: I'm just being realistic 2021-05-07T15:47:24Z amirouche: realistic about what? 2021-05-07T15:47:33Z wasamasa: the dominance of nodejs and browsers and JS 2021-05-07T15:47:45Z amirouche: you think they will fall? 2021-05-07T15:47:54Z wasamasa: no, I think they'll stick around for a very long time 2021-05-07T15:48:08Z wasamasa: and that they're a far better platform for wasm experiments 2021-05-07T15:48:18Z wasamasa: than whatever alternatives you're envisioning 2021-05-07T15:48:25Z amirouche: yes, and with wasm it will make it even more strong in the job market et al. 2021-05-07T15:48:43Z amirouche: nodejs and browser will be stronger with mature wasm. 2021-05-07T15:49:08Z wasamasa: pretty much all existing toolchains compile C/C++/rust to wasm 2021-05-07T15:49:17Z amirouche: yep 2021-05-07T15:49:19Z wasamasa: to them it's just a bizarro compiler backend 2021-05-07T15:50:24Z ecraven: I heard about kubernetes running wasm directly (no OCI), that might be an interesting future 2021-05-07T15:50:46Z amirouche: some are exploring wasm in the backend too. I did not read about kubernetes tho. 2021-05-07T15:50:50Z wasamasa: even something like lucet compiles wasm to a .so 2021-05-07T15:51:30Z wasamasa: though, it's not a normal .so file 2021-05-07T15:51:37Z wasamasa: probably like guile's .go files 2021-05-07T15:51:43Z wasamasa: must be run with their runtime 2021-05-07T15:51:46Z amirouche: afaik the problem is not compiling to wasm, the problem is interop with the host. And in the backend the primordial / mainthread is wasm, so the ffi is reversed. 2021-05-07T15:52:09Z wasamasa: yup 2021-05-07T15:52:14Z wasamasa: you need some usable interface 2021-05-07T15:52:24Z wasamasa: in node/browsers it's obvious, you'd just export JS functions 2021-05-07T15:52:41Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:52:50Z wasamasa: outside of them there's wasi I guess 2021-05-07T15:53:28Z ecraven: yea, I think wasi is the way this might work 2021-05-07T15:53:32Z amirouche: yeah, but then comes the question, how do you interop with another wasm backend? over the network? that seems like a giant waste. 2021-05-07T15:53:42Z wasamasa: lol: https://github.com/WebAssembly/wasi-nn 2021-05-07T15:53:48Z ecraven: well, if it's a container, you run everything via the network anyway 2021-05-07T15:53:59Z wasamasa: correct 2021-05-07T15:54:01Z amirouche: every libfoo will get its own wasm sandbox and REST interface ? 2021-05-07T15:54:14Z wasamasa: and this kids is why webshit is ...shit 2021-05-07T15:55:03Z amirouche: I feel like the old grumpy beared men on freenode my collegue is mocking about. 2021-05-07T15:55:04Z ecraven: but .. but .. I can now run my horizontal-auto-scaler on kubernetes for my wordpress, and it'll replicate a thousand times! (and I don't need to write actually good code :P) 2021-05-07T15:55:20Z amirouche: ecraven: exactly! 2021-05-07T15:55:39Z ecraven: I'm doing a lot of kubernetes stuff at work now, but sometimes, in my quiet room, I ponder what humanity *could* be doing with all that CPU and RAM... 2021-05-07T15:55:58Z wasamasa: run browsers at full speed in the cloud 2021-05-07T15:55:58Z ecraven: but then, people mine bitcoin, that's a lot worse... 2021-05-07T15:56:22Z amirouche: let's be positive ! 2021-05-07T15:56:29Z ecraven: "proof-of-work" might just as well be called "paid-for-electricity" :P 2021-05-07T15:56:33Z amirouche: someone say something nice. 2021-05-07T15:56:39Z wasamasa: well 2021-05-07T15:56:42Z wasamasa: gtk-server is nice 2021-05-07T15:56:50Z wasamasa: I didn't expect it to work this well 2021-05-07T15:57:06Z ecraven: Some Day™ I'll write a Scheme that directly compiles to whatever CPU is current then... maybe I should look into risc-v, that seems to be the new hype.. or is it ARM after allV? 2021-05-07T15:57:08Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:57:13Z amirouche: it seems very nice, indeed. Glad you like it. 2021-05-07T15:57:23Z wasamasa: I'd recommend anyone who wants GTK in their scheme to write like 20 lines of code 2021-05-07T15:57:32Z amirouche: that is all? 2021-05-07T15:57:41Z wasamasa: currently it cannot be done portably because subprocesses/sockets/IPC, but still 2021-05-07T15:57:48Z wasamasa: https://depp.brause.cc/gtk-server/gtk-server-impl.scm 2021-05-07T15:57:58Z wasamasa: well, you have to get a gtk-server running on your system 2021-05-07T15:58:01Z wasamasa: it's not too hard 2021-05-07T15:58:02Z ecraven: wasamasa: that homepage is ... not very clear an how things work at the first look 2021-05-07T15:58:03Z ecraven: or the second :P 2021-05-07T15:58:17Z wasamasa: there's a precompiled version for windows and on linux it's the make dance 2021-05-07T15:58:33Z ecraven: what does it do exactly? 2021-05-07T15:58:52Z wasamasa: what, gtk-server? 2021-05-07T15:59:00Z amirouche: It is missing a HTTP REST interface x') 2021-05-07T15:59:02Z wasamasa: lol 2021-05-07T15:59:11Z ecraven: yea, is it just gtk but without ffi? 2021-05-07T15:59:18Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-07T15:59:24Z wasamasa: it's a lot more work to make a usable HTTP client SRFI than a subprocess one 2021-05-07T15:59:30Z ecraven: amirouche: I believe the current hype is graphql, not REST any more 2021-05-07T15:59:38Z wasamasa: and given a subprocess one, you can shell out to curl 2021-05-07T15:59:44Z ecraven: wasamasa: (http-get url headers).. done :P 2021-05-07T16:00:12Z wasamasa: gtk-server gives you as much of the GTK API as you need, be it via stdin, TCP, UDP, IPC 2021-05-07T16:00:36Z wasamasa: it does that via libffi or so 2021-05-07T16:00:51Z wasamasa: you send a textual command to gtk-server and it executes the corresponding GTK API call 2021-05-07T16:00:59Z ecraven: ah, so it's like a textual ffi 2021-05-07T16:01:05Z wasamasa: it ships with a config file holding the FFI descriptions 2021-05-07T16:01:06Z ecraven: interesting 2021-05-07T16:01:10Z amirouche: gtk-saas, when? 2021-05-07T16:01:13Z wasamasa: you can amend it, add your own definitions, change them 2021-05-07T16:01:20Z wasamasa: there's examples and macros included 2021-05-07T16:01:29Z wasamasa: macros reduce boilerplate considerably 2021-05-07T16:01:43Z wasamasa: this textual FFI even works with bash 2021-05-07T16:01:57Z wasamasa: you can theoretically use it as a shared library, but why bother 2021-05-07T16:03:40Z wasamasa: if you can do that, you might as well use GTK directly 2021-05-07T16:03:57Z wasamasa: it works beyond GTK, too 2021-05-07T16:04:11Z wasamasa: for example I can use cairo, poppler, gdk and whatnot 2021-05-07T16:04:35Z wasamasa: webkit, too 2021-05-07T16:04:59Z ecraven: so it could be used as a textual interface to C libraries in general? 2021-05-07T16:05:06Z wasamasa: yes 2021-05-07T16:05:11Z wasamasa: there's a demo for mikmod included 2021-05-07T16:05:25Z wasamasa: you just need to write that text file with the API description 2021-05-07T16:06:04Z wasamasa: I thought the indirection between parsing the textual API descriptions, parsing the textual API calls and calling the API functions accordingly is noticable, but nope 2021-05-07T16:06:21Z wasamasa: for 60FPS games maybe, but I wouldn't use GTK for them anyway 2021-05-07T16:10:57Z amirouche: time has come my friends for the weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek-end :) 2021-05-07T16:11:08Z amirouche: I hope I will code and not dubito and cogito. 2021-05-07T16:14:30Z Zipheir: "First solve the problem; then write the code." 2021-05-07T16:18:40Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-07T16:19:50Z vms14 joined #scheme 2021-05-07T16:32:18Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T16:32:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T16:34:38Z mdhughes_ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T16:38:55Z mdhughes quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-05-07T16:42:23Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T16:44:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T16:45:06Z mdhughes_ is now known as mdhughes 2021-05-07T16:45:21Z ecraven: wasamasa: so it doesn't compile something based on those text files, but has an "interpreter" that interacts with the C ABI? nice 2021-05-07T16:45:34Z wasamasa: that's what I gather from reading the docs 2021-05-07T16:45:37Z wasamasa: I never tried it 2021-05-07T16:48:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T16:51:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T16:52:58Z ft joined #scheme 2021-05-07T16:55:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T17:04:09Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-07T17:21:50Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T17:22:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-07T17:24:45Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-07T17:26:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T17:27:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-07T17:31:16Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-07T17:39:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-07T17:42:10Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-07T17:43:40Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-07T17:53:41Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T17:54:17Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-07T17:54:35Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-07T17:55:00Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-07T17:55:51Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T17:55:52Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-07T17:55:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-07T18:03:32Z motersen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-07T18:03:48Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-05-07T18:04:58Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-05-07T22:15:13Z jcowan: wasamasa: What is a reasonable Scheme HTTP client? 2021-05-07T22:20:56Z cer-0 joined #scheme 2021-05-07T22:26:49Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-05-07T22:27:27Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-07T22:28:29Z vms14: jcowan: you mean for production? 2021-05-07T22:28:42Z jcowan: Preferably. 2021-05-07T22:28:43Z vms14: ah lol, you said client 2021-05-07T22:29:47Z vms14: are you tied to any scheme implementation or you will use the implementation that has the "better" http client? 2021-05-07T22:30:06Z vms14: because every implementation has it's own, or that's what it seems 2021-05-07T22:30:14Z cer-0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-07T22:30:31Z vms14: and idk how portability is done between scheme languages, I guess it must be "hard" 2021-05-07T22:31:27Z vms14: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/http-client for example 2021-05-07T22:31:40Z vms14: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Web-Client.html 2021-05-07T22:32:00Z vms14: https://github.com/barak/mit-scheme/blob/master/src/runtime/http-client.scm 2021-05-07T22:32:37Z vms14: it's likely you will find one for every scheme implementation and more likely they won't be portable to other scheme 2021-05-07T22:34:09Z vms14: the scheme standard has no knowledge of a socket, so starting from sockets any thing that uses them won't be portable 2021-05-07T22:34:24Z vms14: unless using a portable socket library 2021-05-07T22:34:41Z Zipheir: Like SRFI 170 (which is primarily jcowan's work). 2021-05-07T22:34:49Z vms14: but scheme implementations tend to use their own stuff 2021-05-07T22:35:22Z jcowan: The socket SRFI is 106, but it's not portable 2021-05-07T22:35:36Z Zipheir: vms14: It depends on the Scheme. Some provide/use lots of SRFIs, others don't. 2021-05-07T22:35:37Z iv4nshm4k0v: HTTP/1.1 is defined in terms of messages, so I'd /expect/ for a library to format and parse such messages to be fairly portable. Sending and receiving those messages is a small fraction of the overall task, I'd think. 2021-05-07T22:35:52Z jcowan: it would certainly would be the palce to start. 2021-05-07T22:35:53Z Zipheir: Oh, oops, I thought it was in 170. 2021-05-07T22:36:40Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-07T22:37:04Z vms14: Zipheir: I see 2021-05-07T22:37:11Z vms14: didn't know there was a posix scheme standard 2021-05-07T22:37:13Z vms14: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-170/srfi-170.html 2021-05-07T22:38:02Z jcowan: It's not yet adopted by very many Schemes, but it should be possible to write it as a thin layer. The implementation is basically to show you how it would be odne directly over an FFI (which is not standardized either), specifically Chibi's 2021-05-07T22:38:11Z vms14: I try to transition from cl to scheme 2021-05-07T22:38:25Z vms14: I kinda feel lost here, but it's just because I have to learn scheme 2021-05-07T22:39:00Z jcowan: We are very friendly to CLers 2021-05-07T22:39:53Z vms14: jcowan: I always though there is some kind of barrier between cl and scheme users 2021-05-07T22:40:20Z vms14: I like cl so much 2021-05-07T22:40:33Z vms14: I'm glad the scheme implementation I'll use has some cl features 2021-05-07T22:40:42Z vms14: specially the format function 2021-05-07T22:40:55Z vms14: idk how you can live without this function once you tried it 2021-05-07T22:41:11Z Zipheir: vms14: An alternative approach https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-166/srfi-166.html 2021-05-07T22:42:58Z vms14: Zipheir: xD you can implement format with those functions 2021-05-07T22:43:15Z vms14: even if this srfi was made to avoid having stuff like format 2021-05-07T22:43:23Z Zipheir: Indeed. The advantage that I see is that they're easy to extend, which format magic strings are usually not. 2021-05-07T22:51:04Z vms14: which is your favourite scheme book guys? 2021-05-07T22:51:23Z vms14: I have to learn scheme and I prefer learn by reading books 2021-05-07T22:51:34Z vms14: I have the "the scheme programming language" book 2021-05-07T22:52:01Z vms14: I suppose it's like the "the C programming language" book, in the sense that it's like a reference 2021-05-07T22:53:21Z Zipheir: I like the Little books. 2021-05-07T22:54:11Z vms14: the little schemer book 2021-05-07T22:54:22Z vms14: I've read some of that book, but didn't like the "format" 2021-05-07T22:54:28Z vms14: I mean, it's all questions 2021-05-07T22:55:24Z vms14: read a bit of the SICP book 2021-05-07T22:57:41Z Zipheir: I don't really enjoy the prose of The Scheme Programming Language, but it covers more of the language than any other book currently available. 2021-05-07T22:58:11Z Zipheir: This is a good old text https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Scheme-Michael-Eisenberg/dp/0894261150 2021-05-07T23:01:16Z Zipheir: Essentially, I think there's very little to learn of Scheme per se, since the language is quite small. If you're familiar with functional programming, then it can be just a matter of reading through the standard. 2021-05-07T23:02:25Z vms14: yes, but I'm always looking the equivalent of cl functions/data types 2021-05-07T23:02:49Z vms14: and I loose a lot of time just because I miss stuff from cl 2021-05-07T23:03:08Z vms14: btw I kinda need help with this 2021-05-07T23:03:22Z vms14: https://termbin.com/qj6k 2021-05-07T23:03:36Z vms14: it's the "when" operator, kinda works like an async if 2021-05-07T23:03:42Z Zipheir: Well, it's not CL, but it is functional programming (at least partially). So recursive thinking will get you through in many cases. 2021-05-07T23:03:46Z vms14: uses a special setter to be triggered 2021-05-07T23:04:09Z vms14: the use would be (when a eq? 0 (lambda () (format #t "oh~%")))) 2021-05-07T23:04:23Z vms14: and then you use (setw a 0) 2021-05-07T23:04:24Z Zipheir: Among other things, syntax-rules is more common in Scheme code. 2021-05-07T23:04:37Z vms14: have to learn about sintax-rules 2021-05-07T23:04:46Z vms14: and continuations and alike 2021-05-07T23:04:57Z vms14: the problem I have is it's not complete 2021-05-07T23:05:21Z vms14: this operator needs to be able to let you put different predicates and values for any variable 2021-05-07T23:05:32Z vms14: atm just supports one variable, which is not what I want 2021-05-07T23:05:46Z Zipheir: Is the question how to work with Scheme hash-tables? 2021-05-07T23:06:04Z vms14: but since I have to learn scheme better, and see what kind of data types I have and alike I suppose is better to defer that 2021-05-07T23:06:20Z vms14: Zipheir: not really, it's more like what's the appropiate data type I should use for 2021-05-07T23:06:37Z vms14: what when does is to put the predicate and a lambda in a hash table 2021-05-07T23:07:09Z vms14: but I need to put more than one predicate/lambda 2021-05-07T23:07:16Z vms14: and also need to provide a way to remove them 2021-05-07T23:07:33Z Zipheir: I don't understand what it's supposed to do, though. 2021-05-07T23:08:14Z vms14: and you can't even try this code unless you have s7 scheme 2021-05-07T23:08:25Z vms14: but what it does is this 2021-05-07T23:08:45Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-07T23:08:50Z vms14: you put something like (when a eq? 0 (lambda () (print "something")))) 2021-05-07T23:08:58Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-07T23:09:11Z vms14: then use the special setw operator I've made to set values to the variable a 2021-05-07T23:09:19Z vms14: (setw a 3) for example 2021-05-07T23:09:36Z vms14: once you put (setw a 0) the code of the lambda will be executed 2021-05-07T23:09:54Z Zipheir: And that set!s a to 0? 2021-05-07T23:10:06Z vms14: yes 2021-05-07T23:10:18Z vms14: and setw returns the 0 as value 2021-05-07T23:10:22Z Zipheir: What's the scope of setw? 2021-05-07T23:10:36Z vms14: it's using (set!) so the same scope 2021-05-07T23:11:07Z Zipheir: I mean, when you evaluate the (when a eq? 0 (lambda () (print "something"))) expression, what's the scope of setw? 2021-05-07T23:11:24Z Zipheir: The rest of the program? 2021-05-07T23:11:45Z vms14: it's global scope 2021-05-07T23:12:21Z Zipheir: What if multiple setws are bound? 2021-05-07T23:12:37Z vms14: the hash table has the keys as the variable names stringified with (symbol->string) 2021-05-07T23:12:46Z vms14: so there's no scope 2021-05-07T23:13:22Z vms14: you mean multiple when, at the moment they will replace them which is not what I want 2021-05-07T23:13:37Z vms14: I want to have multiple predicates/lambda for any variable 2021-05-07T23:13:48Z Zipheir: I'd suggest rewriting this to take a body in which setw is bound. 2021-05-07T23:14:04Z vms14: I have to rewrite it entirely 2021-05-07T23:14:21Z vms14: but didn't think about scope 2021-05-07T23:14:29Z vms14: scheme has no property lists for symbols? 2021-05-07T23:14:44Z vms14: I've tried to look for this, but didn't find anything 2021-05-07T23:14:59Z Zipheir: This is one reason why hygienic macros are useful, since it's much harder (theoretically impossible) to shadow already-bound names. 2021-05-07T23:15:06Z vms14: if symbols had property lists I could use them so the scope would be automagically 2021-05-07T23:15:37Z Zipheir: I don't understand how that would fix the scope issue. But what do you want this macro for? 2021-05-07T23:16:09Z vms14: for stuff like (when event eq? exposure-event draw-window) 2021-05-07T23:16:34Z vms14: then in a main loop I only have to put (setw event (next-event)) 2021-05-07T23:17:03Z vms14: and for async stuff 2021-05-07T23:17:33Z vms14: I only have to put a when on async stuff and use setw to trigger the code 2021-05-07T23:17:34Z Zipheir: If you're just learning Scheme, I'd suggest not trying to do that the way you might in CL (i.e. heavy use of macros). 2021-05-07T23:17:47Z vms14: in cl the way would be CLOS 2021-05-07T23:17:47Z Zipheir: Incidentally, most Schemes provide a `when' form. 2021-05-07T23:17:57Z vms14: this scheme does not 2021-05-07T23:18:14Z vms14: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/s7.html 2021-05-07T23:18:29Z Zipheir: Mainly the R6 and R7 schemes. 2021-05-07T23:19:18Z vms14: the author says: 2021-05-07T23:19:20Z vms14: I believe it is compatible with r5rs and r7rs: you can just ignore all the additions discussed in this file. It has continuations, ratios, complex numbers, macros, keywords, hash-tables, multiprecision arithmetic, generalized set!, unicode, and so on. It does not have syntax-rules or any of its friends, and it does not think there is any such thing as an inexact integer. 2021-05-07T23:19:35Z vms14: so I have no syntax-rules 2021-05-07T23:19:39Z Zipheir: Wow. 2021-05-07T23:19:40Z vms14: but define-macro 2021-05-07T23:20:57Z Zipheir: Anyway, I'd suggest trying simpler things in Scheme. 2021-05-07T23:21:18Z vms14: well (when) is not so advanced stuff 2021-05-07T23:21:29Z vms14: but yes, it's better to learn scheme first xD 2021-05-07T23:21:40Z Zipheir: I think it's quite advanced macro wizardry to do it right. 2021-05-07T23:21:49Z vms14: hmm 2021-05-07T23:22:33Z vms14: I don't think that, but maybe schemers don't use macros as usual as cl users do 2021-05-07T23:22:34Z Zipheir: The fact that it (probably) can't be written as a hygienic macro indicates that it's going to need a lot of thought. 2021-05-07T23:23:01Z vms14: which would be sad, since macros is the best feature of lisp 2021-05-07T23:23:07Z vms14: and the reason of its power 2021-05-07T23:24:06Z Zipheir: I don't think they're particularly essential, but hygienic macros are still a nice feature, IMHO. Unhygienic macros are a recipe for disaster. 2021-05-07T23:24:41Z Zipheir: (OK, defmacro is a recipe for disaster. ER/IR and syntax-case just require careful thought.) 2021-05-07T23:25:42Z Zipheir: But it's probably true that you'll see many more macros in CL code than in Scheme. 2021-05-07T23:26:20Z vms14: Zipheir: the disaster schemers are so scared about is named variable capture 2021-05-07T23:26:32Z vms14: which can be avoided just by using gensym 2021-05-07T23:27:06Z vms14: so there is no disaster at all 2021-05-07T23:27:11Z vms14: just fear 2021-05-07T23:28:20Z Zipheir: It's unfortunately not so simple. gensym avoids one class of capture bugs, but there's no easy way to avoid others (e.g. in macros which inject their own identifiers into the scope). 2021-05-07T23:28:41Z vms14: hmm 2021-05-07T23:28:46Z vms14: I have no idea about this 2021-05-07T23:28:56Z Zipheir: There's a reason Scheme didn't even have macros prior to the Friedman, Duba, et al paper which introduced syntax-rules. 2021-05-07T23:29:14Z vms14: I also have to learn about syntax-rules 2021-05-07T23:29:23Z vms14: well, I have to learn scheme 2021-05-07T23:29:26Z vms14: xD 2021-05-07T23:29:50Z vms14: I think continuations will be nice 2021-05-07T23:30:18Z vms14: never looked at them, but some comments about them give hype 2021-05-07T23:30:53Z Zipheir: The Seasoned Schemer gives a short introduction, including showing how to use call/cc (actually, letcc) to implement delimited continuations. 2021-05-07T23:32:23Z Zipheir: There is a lot of hype. Continuation magic *can* be used to create incomprehensible programs, although delimited continuations reduce that danger a bit. 2021-05-07T23:32:57Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, the interface to those isn't standardized yet. 2021-05-07T23:43:16Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-07T23:43:48Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-07T23:48:55Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-07T23:49:37Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-07T23:50:31Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-07T23:52:34Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-07T23:53:11Z jcowan: vms14: Gensyms protect the macro user against the macro definer, but they do *not* protect the macro definer against the user. For example, if a macro refers to a free variable x, that should mean x is defined at the point of macro definition, not the point of macro call. That's not the case with CL defmacros, because it requires processing the whole source code, not just macro definitions and macro calls. 2021-05-07T23:55:05Z jcowan: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf is a good treatment of syntax rules ("JRM's Syntax-rules Primer for the Mildly Eccentric"). It's important to stop reading when you don't understand something, and work with what you know up to there, and then when you need to, go back and read from the beginning. 2021-05-07T23:55:13Z jcowan: s/need to/need more 2021-05-08T00:03:40Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-08T00:06:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-08T00:06:29Z jacks2 quit (Quit: http://www.okay.uz/ (Ping timeout)) 2021-05-08T00:06:35Z vms14: jcowan: I'll save this link for later 2021-05-08T00:06:43Z vms14: atm I need to get a base first 2021-05-08T00:06:47Z vms14: thanks for the link :D 2021-05-08T00:07:56Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-08T00:10:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-08T00:13:30Z Zipheir: jcowan: Gensyms don't fully protect the macro user, either. 2021-05-08T00:16:58Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-08T00:21:22Z Zipheir: (Or, rather, there's no guarantee that all of the macro writers you're relying on have remembered all of their gensyms.) 2021-05-08T00:35:15Z gwatt: It seems that a good number of people who complain about hygienic macros are mostly complaining about the limited pattern language of syntax-rules 2021-05-08T00:40:00Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-08T00:53:34Z vms14: I always think in toilet paper when I read "hygienic macros" 2021-05-08T00:58:32Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-08T01:21:22Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-08T01:21:45Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-08T01:22:42Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-08T01:24:16Z dTal: Most of the time I want macros, it is exactly because I want to pre-bind symbols 2021-05-08T01:24:36Z dTal: so a hygiene system is totally counterproductive 2021-05-08T01:24:46Z irc_user quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-08T01:25:36Z vms14: why the heck () is true in scheme? 2021-05-08T01:25:38Z vms14: wtf 2021-05-08T01:29:11Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-08T01:29:25Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-08T01:37:21Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-05-08T01:39:16Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-08T01:59:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-08T02:03:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-08T02:03:59Z jcowan: vms14: #f is false, #t and everything else is true 2021-05-08T02:04:43Z jcowan: and the symbols t and nil are ... the symbols t and nil. 2021-05-08T02:10:03Z vms14: I see 2021-05-08T02:10:12Z vms14: but I was used to have () as nil 2021-05-08T02:10:19Z vms14: and nil as nil 2021-05-08T02:11:03Z vms14: I suppose it's a matter of time to get used to scheme, but being used to cl I dislike the little differences I found 2021-05-08T02:11:04Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-08T02:11:21Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-08T02:11:54Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-08T02:20:01Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-08T02:20:38Z Zipheir: *sigh* 2021-05-08T02:36:58Z jcowan: It takes time to adjust. When I came from CL to Scheme, I was hung up on the same points. When I wrote a substantial Scheme program, I used () as self-evaluating, which it is not in Scheme, so I did a global edit changing () to '() -- except then I had to change back (lambda '() ...) to (lambda () ...). 2021-05-08T02:58:53Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-08T03:01:56Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-08T03:04:29Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-08T03:05:22Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-08T03:06:01Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-08T03:09:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-08T03:45:33Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-08T03:50:48Z madage joined #scheme 2021-05-08T04:23:33Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-08T04:27:07Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-08T04:52:45Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-08T05:03:17Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-08T05:05:22Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-08T05:06:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-08T05:11:41Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-08T05:28:16Z skapate quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-08T05:41:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-08T05:46:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-08T06:05:06Z wasamasa: jcowan: the equivalent of requests basically 2021-05-08T06:05:18Z wasamasa: jcowan: which is not reasonable to standardize, let alone implement 2021-05-08T06:05:56Z wasamasa: jcowan: with its redirect, authentication, cookies, parameter encoding, content type, ... stuff 2021-05-08T06:06:19Z wasamasa: jcowan: so I'd rather shell out to curl 2021-05-08T06:06:53Z wasamasa: https is another fun side of it 2021-05-08T06:07:04Z wasamasa: and chunked or gzipped encoding 2021-05-08T06:09:46Z siraben: vms14: It's rather nice to have proper booleans and not () be conflated with falsity 2021-05-08T06:10:26Z wasamasa: jcowan: the http-client egg is good enough in many aspects, but doesn't feel quite perfect 2021-05-08T06:12:00Z wasamasa: jcowan: its default how to encode query parameters mismatches with reality, configuring basic auth and dealing with cookies is annoying and its redirect handling is exception-based for some reason 2021-05-08T06:52:37Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-08T07:16:23Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2021-05-08T07:20:01Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-08T07:25:24Z dpk: jcowan: meanwhile, in Elisp (i've never really used CL), i invariably write '() out of habit. of course, there it works, even if it probably looks odd to Elispers 2021-05-08T07:25:30Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-08T07:27:37Z iv4nshm4k-v joined #scheme 2021-05-08T07:27:42Z wasamasa: it does 2021-05-08T07:27:43Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-05-08T07:27:46Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-08T07:30:13Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-08T07:33:46Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-08T07:34:33Z amirouche: I might have figured why nodejs crashed yesterday with my call/cc benchmark: because of bigint =( 2021-05-08T07:41:44Z dpk: jcowan: is there any reason (scheme ephemeron) doesn't include syntax for the correct idiom for ephemeron-broken? ? seems like it'd be a fairly common operation 2021-05-08T07:43:44Z dpk: it'd also be handy to have a way to know whether the implementation actually uses weak references. (ideally, with cond-expand, but then the library is non-portable because we don't have a way to have user-/library-defined cond-expand features …) 2021-05-08T07:47:09Z amirouche: oh we don't? 2021-05-08T07:53:35Z dpk: not as far as i know 2021-05-08T07:54:06Z dpk: other than whether a library is there or not (which itself depends on implementation-dependent details of how library lookup works) 2021-05-08T07:55:38Z amirouche: I was wondering whether it would be good thing to document cond-expand features with procedures as part of srfis. Such as (weak-reference?) returns #t means weak-reference is a cond-expand feature and is available in the current scheme. 2021-05-08T07:58:26Z amirouche: dpk: what you say, is that we will need to rely on user defined procedures inside cond-expand? 2021-05-08T08:00:38Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-08T08:03:48Z dpk: i can't say in portable Scheme code "this library provides the cond-expand feature xyz" 2021-05-08T08:04:24Z amirouche: ok, got it. 2021-05-08T08:09:33Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-08T08:13:07Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-05-08T08:15:44Z amirouche: I fixed the call/cc benchmark program to avoid the use of bigint: 2021-05-08T08:15:52Z amirouche: chez : ▏ 159.00 2021-05-08T08:15:55Z amirouche: gambit : ▇▇ 585.00 2021-05-08T08:15:57Z amirouche: racket : ▇▇ 663.00 2021-05-08T08:15:59Z amirouche: chicken: ▇▇▇ 833.00 2021-05-08T08:16:01Z amirouche: cyclone: ▇▇▇▇ 1107.00 2021-05-08T08:16:03Z amirouche: racket : ▇▇ 663.00 2021-05-08T08:16:32Z amirouche: oops! 2021-05-08T08:16:37Z amirouche: look at https://dpaste.com/8F7CRGVJ8.txt 2021-05-08T08:17:18Z amirouche: guile clocks at 13000, and nodejs via ruse at 20000. 2021-05-08T08:21:43Z amirouche: guile and nodejs are JIT compilers. 2021-05-08T08:22:02Z amirouche: whereas all the other benchmarked schemes are aot. 2021-05-08T08:26:33Z wasamasa: what about racket 2021-05-08T08:26:51Z amirouche: racket is aot too. its score is 663ms 2021-05-08T08:27:12Z amirouche: on-the-fly aot, so that includes compilation time. 2021-05-08T08:32:13Z amirouche: gambit with nodejs as target clocks at 7346ms 2021-05-08T08:42:01Z dpk: Gerbil should be getting a real SRFI 124 in any case, assuming my implementation is correct and vyzo accepts it https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/pull/611 2021-05-08T08:44:34Z amirouche: I added ruse/nodejs (20000), gambit/nodejs (7000) and ruse/chez (700) to be able tell whether nodejs is fast: it is not :) 2021-05-08T08:44:37Z amirouche: https://dpaste.com/6FB68MSQG.txt 2021-05-08T08:46:13Z amirouche: ruse/chez is in the same ballpark than gambit, racket and chicken between 500 and 900 ms, whereas the same code in javascript is 30 times slower. 2021-05-08T08:46:53Z amirouche: so much about real-time jit. 2021-05-08T08:48:58Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-08T08:53:56Z amirouche: benchmarks are a rather addictive activity. 2021-05-08T08:54:01Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-08T08:55:02Z dpk: ahhhhh, my implementation has the same bug as Chibi: an ephemeron won't be broken if the datum refers to the key. hmmmm 2021-05-08T08:56:24Z dpk: i think that can't easily be fixed with Gambit's wills, though. and still better than an implementation that never collects ephemerons 2021-05-08T08:57:12Z iv4nshm4k-v left #scheme 2021-05-08T09:07:08Z afterK joined #scheme 2021-05-08T09:30:44Z taw10: amirouche: which Guile version? 2021-05-08T09:43:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-08T09:44:06Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-08T09:48:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-08T09:52:30Z afterK quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-08T09:56:17Z amirouche: taw10: 3.0.1 2021-05-08T09:58:05Z amirouche: speaking of guile, I will rework the benchmark program to make it work with call/ec. 2021-05-08T10:01:29Z amirouche: hence delimited continuation 2021-05-08T10:08:14Z amirouche: guile's call/ec is only three times slower than chez call/cc 2021-05-08T10:08:44Z amirouche: I used this program to benchmark https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Prompt-Primitives.html#index-call_002fec 2021-05-08T10:12:44Z amirouche: I tried to benchmark nodejs wasm with schism... but but there is no call/cc for a direct benchmark, there is no set! for indirect benchmark with ruse output. 2021-05-08T10:17:07Z wasamasa: schism is shit 2021-05-08T10:17:12Z wasamasa: it's nowhere near ready 2021-05-08T10:19:54Z dpk: and it looks abandoned 2021-05-08T10:20:51Z amirouche: wasamasa: I did not want to say that. 2021-05-08T10:21:11Z amirouche: and the code rely on too much nodejs code. 2021-05-08T10:21:14Z wasamasa: it's in the same ballpark as other people's attempts at implementing a lisp 2021-05-08T10:21:23Z wasamasa: useful for studying, but not for relying upon it 2021-05-08T10:21:30Z amirouche: I took me 1 hour to compile and run a scheme program with schism. 2021-05-08T10:21:37Z wasamasa: and for that I'd rather recommend you to study cyclone 2021-05-08T10:21:45Z amirouche: it is not even useful for studying fwiw. 2021-05-08T10:22:12Z amirouche: the test suite is hanging in the air. It claim to be R6RS, but it does not support programs. 2021-05-08T10:22:27Z amirouche: there is way too much js 2021-05-08T10:23:05Z amirouche: it implement tailcall but it does not support interop with the host JS VM which is a major roadblock toward making it useful. 2021-05-08T10:23:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-08T10:23:50Z amirouche: basically it may help test wasm, but for that it would require useful programs. 2021-05-08T10:24:20Z amirouche: in other words, scheme is bad frontend for the given architecture. 2021-05-08T10:24:53Z amirouche: the architecture which forbid interop with the host is useful to write speed / cpu sensitive programs. 2021-05-08T10:25:44Z amirouche: I mean you can not fully interop with the host. You can manipulate JS string, numbers etc... but not respond to dom events or xhr. 2021-05-08T10:28:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-08T10:29:15Z amirouche: I forgot that it is self-hosted, in other words there is a program that make use of wasm that is schism itself. 2021-05-08T10:29:44Z wasamasa: yup 2021-05-08T10:29:59Z wasamasa: I had the impression wasm is a bad fit for dynamically typed languages when reading the spec 2021-05-08T10:30:08Z wasamasa: and not finding a single good looking implementation 2021-05-08T10:30:20Z wasamasa: just backends for clang, gcc and friends 2021-05-08T10:30:47Z amirouche: without call/cc (maybe call/ec will work?) is a bad fit for anything that wants to respond to dom events or xhr. 2021-05-08T10:31:45Z amirouche: but even existing games, to respond say to a click on the canvas, you need to poll the js host. 2021-05-08T10:32:06Z amirouche: that does not seem efficient. 2021-05-08T10:32:17Z amirouche: it is possible to make it work. 2021-05-08T10:33:29Z wasamasa: why? 2021-05-08T10:33:33Z wasamasa: can't you just use closures? 2021-05-08T10:33:41Z wasamasa: what's the obsession with call/cc 2021-05-08T10:33:54Z wasamasa: I mean, come on, JS works just fine without it 2021-05-08T10:36:22Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-05-08T10:36:51Z amirouche: this is not call/cc per se, but call/cc will solve the problem at the wasm level. To avoid the need to poll the host for events, and re-implement a trampoline, you need a way to pause wasm and resume it from the host. 2021-05-08T10:47:30Z taw10: amirouche: I'm sure you know it already, but for info: it's not really a surprise that Guile's call/cc is super-slow, see the last four paragraphs of https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Continuations.html 2021-05-08T10:54:08Z amirouche: taw10: I have been locked into guile walled garden way to long... the benchmark program does not need to interop with C, it is only scheme. Also the paragraph: "because Guile is designed to cooperate with programs written in other languages, such as C" until recently there was no way to reliably retrieve C stdlib's errno; so it is somewhat false. 2021-05-08T10:55:11Z amirouche: Also, I am not finished, my plan is to build at some point the crawler of my search engine in a portable way, so that will be a "real benchmark" 2021-05-08T10:55:36Z amirouche: that will involve both C and call/cc or prompts. 2021-05-08T10:56:53Z taw10: Sure, no criticism, it's just interesting to see some actual numbers relating to that note in the Guile manual 2021-05-08T10:58:06Z amirouche: sorry, for my comment about "walled garden" it just that I regret contributing to guile, it might be better nowadays. Also my goal with the benchmarks was really to see how fast is ruse/chez and ruse/nodejs 2021-05-08T11:02:05Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-08T11:03:23Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-08T11:03:23Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-08T11:03:23Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-08T11:58:49Z wasamasa: well 2021-05-08T11:59:00Z wasamasa: most contributions are a plus for the project 2021-05-08T11:59:12Z wasamasa: I have a few guilelisp fixes I want to contribute, but it seems pointless 2021-05-08T11:59:56Z wasamasa: did you do copyright assignment? 2021-05-08T12:02:32Z srandon111 left #scheme 2021-05-08T12:18:25Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-08T12:24:13Z amirouche: no. 2021-05-08T12:25:56Z wasamasa: hm 2021-05-08T12:25:59Z flatwhatson: why would it be pointless? lots of folks use guile, and it's only growing with the rise of guix 2021-05-08T12:26:03Z wasamasa: did they let you do substantial contributions? 2021-05-08T12:26:42Z frost-lab 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your relationship with your employer i guess 2021-05-08T12:32:33Z wasamasa: the larger the company is, the more annoying it gets 2021-05-08T12:32:53Z wasamasa: because chances are it has an actual legal department at some size 2021-05-08T12:33:18Z flatwhatson: still, it's something you only need to do once (perhaps once per project) 2021-05-08T12:33:24Z wasamasa: once per project, yes 2021-05-08T12:33:39Z wasamasa: it's not the norm to do a generic copyright assignment paper 2021-05-08T12:34:07Z wasamasa: you'd in fact need to edit the form to do that and ensure it's still valid and convince your employer to do a bigger grant than usual 2021-05-08T12:35:08Z flatwhatson: i have a single disclaimer for all projects, so not necessarily 2021-05-08T12:35:47Z wasamasa: yes, you, but you're not the norm 2021-05-08T12:35:47Z flatwhatson: actually the "default" disclaimer text suggested by the fsf covers all changes to any software already circulating under a GPL 2021-05-08T12:36:33Z flatwhatson: anyway, i don't mean to discount your experience, just offer an alternative anecdatum 2021-05-08T12:38:18Z wasamasa: I've never seen a generic disclaimer text offered on emacs-devel whenever someone asked for the copyright assignment form 2021-05-08T12:39:51Z flatwhatson: this is the disclaimer template i received in 2019 for contrib to emacs: https://paste.gnome.org/pb6p4nc1u 2021-05-08T12:40:40Z amirouche: wasamasa: my direct contributions even in the form of patches to Guile were ignored. 2021-05-08T12:40:52Z wasamasa: ah, I forgot about that 2021-05-08T12:41:11Z amirouche: patches to guile proper. but I consider building a software that runs only with guile a contribution too. 2021-05-08T12:42:50Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-08T12:43:00Z TCZ quit (Quit: ...) 2021-05-08T12:43:48Z amirouche: If they were none contributor mishandling (me and others), I would still be using Guile, and would be clueless about the rest of Scheme or even software 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2021-05-09T14:04:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-09T14:08:40Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-09T14:13:19Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-09T14:15:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-09T14:15:37Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-09T14:16:20Z cipherchess quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-09T14:19:31Z vbramselaar joined #scheme 2021-05-09T14:19:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-09T14:20:41Z vbramselaar: Hi there I want to create a list of procedures, but when I do car to get the first procdure and run it I get the error: "Wrong type to apply: (# (define (print text) (display text)) 2021-05-09T14:30:16Z dpk: scheme@(guile-user)> (list print) 2021-05-09T14:30:17Z dpk: $1 = (#) 2021-05-09T14:30:17Z vbramselaar: sorry I mean: (define functions (list print)) 2021-05-09T14:30:25Z dpk: works for me in 3.0.5 2021-05-09T14:30:36Z dpk: also works for me 2021-05-09T14:30:54Z vbramselaar: then I do ((car functions) "test") 2021-05-09T14:31:10Z vbramselaar: Yhea I use guile 2.2 2021-05-09T14:31:12Z vbramselaar: btw 2021-05-09T14:31:17Z dpk: also works for me 2021-05-09T14:31:28Z dpk: may be a bug in your old version, then 2021-05-09T14:32:19Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-09T14:33:35Z vbramselaar: ah wait I got it now 2021-05-09T14:33:51Z vbramselaar: In my list the procedure was second place next to a string 2021-05-09T14:33:56Z vbramselaar: and I used cdr 2021-05-09T14:36:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-09T14:40:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-09T14:43:59Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-09T14:54:36Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-09T14:55:07Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-09T15:01:35Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-09T15:02:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T15:02:50Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-09T15:02:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T15:15:26Z tautologico joined #scheme 2021-05-09T15:21:01Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-09T15:22:07Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-09T15:22:45Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T15:24:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T15:24:03Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-09T15:24:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T15:26:22Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-09T15:27:55Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T15:29:11Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T15:29:11Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-09T15:29:11Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T15:32:36Z oned4 joined #scheme 2021-05-09T15:32:44Z oned4 is now known as cipherchess 2021-05-09T15:47:04Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-09T16:04:12Z vbramselaar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-09T16:12:41Z midow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-09T16:14:51Z dieggsy: oh no guys, scope and environments in Python are so nonsensical lmao. I've used Python longer than Scheme but after using primarily scheme for a while, yikes 2021-05-09T16:22:22Z tautologico quit 2021-05-09T16:36:11Z mdhughes: Python's consistent, and much more familiar to users of most languages, it's just not Scheme-like. 2021-05-09T16:42:46Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-09T16:47:59Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-09T16:52:37Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-09T16:54:57Z xsperry: mdhughes, maybe in general.. but python scoping rules are weird as heck, very different than that of most other languages 2021-05-09T16:55:11Z xsperry: s/most/all? 2021-05-09T16:55:30Z mdhughes: They're really not. They're the same as C's, except you can't nest functions in older versions of C. 2021-05-09T16:55:36Z xsperry: mdhughes, no they are not 2021-05-09T16:56:21Z mdhughes: one million times yes, seriously read the docs and it's crystal clear. 2021-05-09T16:56:32Z xsperry: mdhughes, you obviously don't know what you're talking about 2021-05-09T16:56:59Z mdhughes: Been coding in Python since the '90s, so… hm. Maybe I do. 2021-05-09T16:57:14Z xsperry: yeah.. you don't 2021-05-09T16:58:35Z amirouche: ^^' 2021-05-09T16:58:39Z xsperry: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1188944/reason-for-unintuitive-unboundlocalerror-behaviour 2021-05-09T16:58:54Z amirouche: nonlocal will not give you access to global variables, because! 2021-05-09T16:59:45Z mdhughes: https://paste.debian.net/1196904/ 2021-05-09T16:59:51Z xsperry: also, without global keyword, function will access global variable, except if you assign to the local variable of the same name.. 50 lines below! 2021-05-09T16:59:59Z xsperry: then you'll get "undefined variable" or similar error 2021-05-09T17:00:04Z mdhughes: Hoisting works fine, global access is restricted unless you use a global declaration. 2021-05-09T17:00:39Z ChoHag hands out bowls of popcorn 2021-05-09T17:00:58Z mdhughes: And since you should never have name collisions between local and global, UnboundLocal is a good error. 2021-05-09T17:01:04Z amirouche: that is called a workaround. 2021-05-09T17:01:17Z amirouche: no name collisions is something else. 2021-05-09T17:01:28Z xsperry: https://ideone.com/u4iOzP 2021-05-09T17:01:31Z xsperry: just like C! 2021-05-09T17:01:47Z mdhughes: All of programming is workarounds. global is an actual declaration of intent. That's what all the type-safety people want, but then they get mad when it's given to them. 2021-05-09T17:02:30Z mdhughes: C doesn't provide the error, but it's still *wrong* to have a local/global collision only shadowed by hoisting. 2021-05-09T17:02:33Z xsperry: yeah, great safety feature. someone reuses the same variable name locally 50 lines after you accessed global variable, and you get runtime error 2021-05-09T17:02:53Z amirouche: I do not think global it is a type-safety features, it is more like they did not figure in python 1.0 how scoping should work, then botched global and later nonlocal. 2021-05-09T17:03:03Z mdhughes: global was in 1.0 2021-05-09T17:03:12Z mdhughes: Or 0.1 or whatever it was Guido pushed to USENET. 2021-05-09T17:03:33Z amirouche: TIL global was done unpurpose. 2021-05-09T17:03:42Z amirouche: on purpose. sorry. 2021-05-09T17:04:24Z amirouche: there is a good side to python: it is not nerdy! 2021-05-09T17:05:08Z mdhughes: It's still a programming language, even if it borrowed syntax from his kiddie teaching language. 2021-05-09T17:05:46Z amirouche: both nonlocal and global seemed like a hack way before i learned scheme, I knew only php and javascript at the time. 2021-05-09T17:07:44Z mdhughes: Most Algol-types have either a declaration or a default value for variables (BASIC, REXX, lots of others), so Python only have the declaration for global but erroring on undefined was unusually terse. 2021-05-09T17:09:48Z Zipheir: IIRC C has had block scope since ANSI C or C89, I can't remember which. 2021-05-09T17:10:53Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-09T17:11:33Z xsperry: found it.. this shows what a clusterfuck python scoping rules are (and Guido seems to be quite proud of that) https://twitter.com/gvanrossum/status/1354305179244392453?s=19 2021-05-09T17:12:04Z xsperry: https://ideone.com/yGYuI2 2021-05-09T17:12:57Z amirouche: @__@ 2021-05-09T17:13:32Z amirouche: how is that even possible? 2021-05-09T17:14:14Z amirouche: ahh yes, it is because x = 2 after the print. 2021-05-09T17:14:21Z mdhughes: That print is in a silly place, it's not in the class, but in the class def. 2021-05-09T17:14:52Z amirouche: after that, it is clear why we build broken software. 2021-05-09T17:15:07Z amirouche: the basis is broken :/ 2021-05-09T17:15:24Z amirouche: I have seen code inside class def. 2021-05-09T17:15:24Z ChoHag: That is not the reason. 2021-05-09T17:15:30Z ChoHag: The reason caused that. 2021-05-09T17:15:41Z amirouche: coding is difficult? 2021-05-09T17:16:00Z ChoHag: Can't be. Kids learn it. 2021-05-09T17:17:46Z amirouche: seem like there is level up at https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Est82CGU0AEG__Z?format=png&name=small 2021-05-09T17:17:58Z Zipheir: amirouche: "Perhaps if we wrote programs from childhood on, as adults we'd be able to read them." --Perlis 2021-05-09T17:18:08Z amirouche: ^^' 2021-05-09T17:19:33Z Zipheir: It seems like a mistake to allow statements in class definitions, but I don't know much about Python. 2021-05-09T17:20:18Z ChoHag: I don't know. I wrote programs from childhood and I can't read any of the shite that people make these days. 2021-05-09T17:20:52Z mdhughes: It's legal but it's stupid; you can make assignments there as class variables, and def to define methods, annotations, anything else is unsafe. 2021-05-09T17:21:00Z ChoHag: Not without exponentially more effort than it's worth. 2021-05-09T17:21:09Z cipherchess quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-09T17:21:16Z mdhughes: Because what's the scope? Well, it's partially hoisted so it can be put in module scope. 2021-05-09T17:21:47Z Zipheir: Oh, is def an assignment under the hood? 2021-05-09T17:21:49Z mdhughes: Whereas my stupid scoping/hoist trick in foo/bar is perfectly reasonable, just hard to read. 2021-05-09T17:22:04Z mdhughes: Basically, yes. Everything in Python is assigning to a dictionary. 2021-05-09T17:22:10Z Zipheir: Aha, that explains it. 2021-05-09T17:22:24Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-09T17:22:36Z amirouche: ChoHag: you are old. 2021-05-09T17:22:50Z slaterr joined #scheme 2021-05-09T17:23:08Z amirouche: I have the same problem with the clock, I can not set it anymore. I prefer the substract the correct count of hours to know the time. 2021-05-09T17:23:09Z ChoHag: I am an old *programmer*. 2021-05-09T17:23:11Z ChoHag: I'm lazy. 2021-05-09T17:23:13Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-09T17:23:25Z ChoHag: (But functional) 2021-05-09T17:23:31Z mdhughes: I wrote programs all my life, but most Other Peoples' Code just makes me angry, so I write my own. 2021-05-09T17:23:40Z amirouche: also two clocks in my home needs different substractions 2021-05-09T17:23:57Z brendyyn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-09T17:24:08Z amirouche: because the ux is bad to program the clock.. 2021-05-09T17:24:08Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-09T17:24:23Z ChoHag: If you need to program a clock, the ux is indeed bad. 2021-05-09T17:24:47Z ChoHag: Clocks are supposed to tell the time, not be told. 2021-05-09T17:25:03Z Zipheir: amirouche: It's like the Three Stooges routine where Curly has a complex algorithm for telling the time using three differently-broken watches. 2021-05-09T17:25:48Z Zipheir: (But of course pulls out a working clock to answer the question. There is plenty of accurate programming wisdom in this skit.) 2021-05-09T17:26:30Z ChoHag: Have a link? The Stooges were never popular over here. 2021-05-09T17:26:52Z mdhughes: I've never been good at analog clocks, we had a VCR from early years and I always set the time from the time/weather TV channel. 2021-05-09T17:27:15Z ChoHag: The problem with analog clocks is they have a minute hand. 2021-05-09T17:27:28Z ChoHag: It's two clocks in one! 2021-05-09T17:27:30Z mdhughes: So I conned my parents into getting me a red LED digital watch when I was like 9. 2021-05-09T17:28:04Z ChoHag: Then they have three hands to give them a second hand and no wonder they're confusing. 2021-05-09T17:28:06Z Zipheir: ChoHag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPQHDToZOHw 2021-05-09T17:28:08Z amirouche: analog clocks are easy to set. digital clock ux if they do not synch are pain. 2021-05-09T17:28:10Z ChoHag: And where are the fingers? 2021-05-09T17:28:25Z ChoHag: And the minute hand is the biggest one! 2021-05-09T17:28:40Z mdhughes: Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose apedescended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea. 2021-05-09T17:31:30Z oned4 joined #scheme 2021-05-09T17:32:27Z oned4 is now known as cipherchess 2021-05-09T17:32:28Z ChoHag: Yeah I can see why that wasn't popular over here... :) 2021-05-09T17:34:15Z amirouche: that's fun :) 2021-05-09T17:35:04Z amirouche: "I am positive about the negative, but a little negative about the positive" 2021-05-09T17:37:00Z amirouche: mdhughes: with bluetooth it works. 2021-05-09T17:37:49Z Zipheir: ChoHag: You're lazy and functional 2021-05-09T17:37:51Z Zipheir: ? 2021-05-09T17:38:57Z ChoHag: Seems pretty clear to me, I do as little as possible but what I do do is required to in order to work and works. 2021-05-09T17:40:03Z ChoHag: Just like any decent program should be: as simple as possible but no simpler. 2021-05-09T17:41:38Z Zipheir: "When I say 'functional language', I mean like a function in math, not that other languages aren't." --Larry Wall 2021-05-09T17:42:01Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-09T17:42:36Z ChoHag: Larry Wall had his head screwed on straight, poor guy. 2021-05-09T17:44:59Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-09T17:54:17Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-09T18:09:59Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-09T18:21:07Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-09T18:33:12Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-05-09T18:37:35Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T18:38:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T18:38:52Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-09T18:38:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T18:38:58Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-09T18:42:15Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T18:43:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T18:43:30Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-09T18:43:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T18:46:16Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-09T18:47:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-09T18:55:51Z jcowan: ChoHag: Why the past tense, and why "poor guy"? Has he died? 2021-05-09T18:56:18Z ChoHag: Perl did. 2021-05-09T18:57:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-09T18:58:20Z ChoHag: But that's just life. It had a bloody good run. Poor guy is because he saw things how they are and that's the universe's cruellest joke. 2021-05-09T18:59:14Z ChoHag: But if he didn't, perl wouldn't have worked and certainly would be dying as gracefully. 2021-05-09T19:03:55Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T19:05:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T19:05:12Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-09T19:05:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T19:13:55Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T19:17:27Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-09T19:37:35Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T19:38:48Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T19:44:28Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-09T19:45:22Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-09T19:49:38Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-09T19:50:28Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-09T19:53:15Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T19:54:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T19:54:32Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-09T19:54:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:02:25Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T20:03:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:03:42Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-09T20:03:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:04:48Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:05:53Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-09T20:13:05Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T20:14:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:14:22Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-09T20:14:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:23:33Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-09T20:24:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:26:08Z midow joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:26:39Z indathrone quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-09T20:30:24Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:31:09Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:43:50Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-09T20:48:04Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-09T20:53:40Z jcowan: Perl is far from dead. But most programmers use whatever languages their bosses dictate, and those decisions are made on whim, buzz, or the availability of programmers for it, not technical merit 2021-05-09T20:54:04Z jcowan: So it's back to flying under the radar, a secret weapon. 2021-05-09T21:03:09Z Zipheir: I find Larry Wall's language ideas very different from almost every other PL designer's, perhaps because he seems to think about PLs as natural languages. 2021-05-09T21:03:36Z drakonis: raku is what you're looking for here 2021-05-09T21:04:37Z Zipheir: Yeah, my experience with learning some Perl 6/Raku was more like learning a little Esperanto. 2021-05-09T21:12:36Z jcowan: Raku has yet to really take off, though. 2021-05-09T21:13:16Z jcowan: There is a huge amount of legacy (which means 'production') Perl 5 code. 2021-05-09T21:15:20Z indathrone joined #scheme 2021-05-09T21:16:55Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T21:17:16Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-09T21:17:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-09T21:19:19Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-09T21:22:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-09T21:32:58Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-09T21:43:46Z jcowan: Python doesn't actually have definitions, either. 2021-05-09T21:45:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-09T21:49:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-09T21:55:59Z ChoHag: Perl's not dead. 2021-05-09T21:56:01Z ChoHag: It died. 2021-05-09T21:56:05Z ChoHag: There's a difference. 2021-05-09T21:57:23Z ChoHag: Perl got a lot of things right. Python is basically perl, but for C programmers. 2021-05-09T21:57:54Z ChoHag: Or C++, if you like. I try to keep it vague and apolitical. 2021-05-09T22:05:17Z ChoHag: The en vogue languages are clearly doing something right or they wouldn't be en vogue. Perl survives as a zombie becaues it works. Pythong keeps growing because no matter how hard you try people keep using it. Javascript exists basically everywhere. You simply can't argue with that. 2021-05-09T22:05:42Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-09T22:06:52Z jcowan: JS is in use because front-end programmers have no other choice. 2021-05-09T22:07:06Z ChoHag: That is a regrettable truth. 2021-05-09T22:07:19Z jcowan: I have no idea why C survives, probably because it's better than C++. 2021-05-09T22:07:19Z ChoHag: It is scheme-based though. 2021-05-09T22:07:25Z ChoHag: Because it works. 2021-05-09T22:08:12Z ChoHag: (Two its, JS is scheme-based, C works) 2021-05-09T22:08:15Z jcowan: The TIOBE 2020 report shows Perl on the rise for the first time in a long time, perhaps because people are no longer waiting for Perl 6. 2021-05-09T22:09:45Z ChoHag: C survives for the same reason our genome is ~98% the same as a banana. 2021-05-09T22:11:28Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-09T22:15:31Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-05-09T22:15:35Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-09T22:30:41Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T22:31:49Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T22:37:22Z slaterr quit (Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)) 2021-05-09T22:49:39Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-09T22:51:40Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-09T23:09:55Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-09T23:28:51Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-09T23:29:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-09T23:30:12Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-05-09T23:34:39Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-09T23:35:23Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-09T23:36:00Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-09T23:42:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-09T23:43:00Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-05-09T23:46:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-09T23:52:40Z mdhughes: Perl7's interesting, if they can make harder decisions and break with the past. Function signatures would be a really good start. Picking one OOP system to bless (ha!) would be good. 2021-05-09T23:53:04Z mdhughes: And their former pumpking who was pushing for that stuff quit because of toxic community. 2021-05-09T23:53:11Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-09T23:53:54Z mdhughes: As of Perl7 announcement, I was optimistic for it, now I'm dubious they'll do anything. 2021-05-09T23:56:05Z mdhughes: C, OTOH, will never die. In 10,000 years the basis of operating systems and applications will probably still be C. 2021-05-09T23:56:15Z LeoNerd: We're still working on lots of things, don't worry 2021-05-09T23:56:39Z mdhughes: Because it works, it has a good spec, the language community is very professional. Old. Stable. SANE. 2021-05-09T23:56:48Z LeoNerd: It's just the usual 5->6(oops abort)->7 version transition transition problems any language has. I'm sure you Scheme folks will understand ;) 2021-05-09T23:58:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-09T23:58:43Z LeoNerd: The current plan is basically to continue the usual language updates and additions, just at a rather accelerated pace than previously, calling them 5.36, 5.38, etc.. and at some point declare "Hey, this is sufficiently new and different we'll call it 7 instead" 2021-05-10T00:00:26Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-10T00:00:39Z ChoHag: I hope it works out. I hope I gave the impression that perl tried good things that maybe didn't all work as expected, rather than it was an abject failure. I liked perl. 2021-05-10T00:00:58Z ChoHag: Like, sorry, E and D are next to each other. 2021-05-10T00:01:08Z LeoNerd: Liked, past tense? You don't any more? 2021-05-10T00:01:40Z ChoHag: Definitely present tense, that was an accident. 2021-05-10T00:01:53Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-10T00:01:56Z LeoNerd: :) 2021-05-10T00:02:39Z LeoNerd: If you want to see my personal thoughts on 7, I did a talk on the subject of what features I'll be adding over the next few years, "Perl in 2025". The final couple of minutes I bring it all together and suggest this is what I have in mind for 7 2021-05-10T00:05:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T00:07:36Z ChoHag: Is perl 7 an actual thing or just an obviously we have to at some point? 2021-05-10T00:08:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T00:09:48Z LeoNerd: It's a future plan, it's not a "thing" that exists now. The initial bits of technical groundwork are now done so that the actual core code can declare a major version that isn't 5. 2021-05-10T00:10:39Z LeoNerd: The current plan is to continue on the current trajectory of 5.34, 5.36, etc... up until we feel that we have a bunch of new features that are "marketing friendly" (e.g. signatures, objects, etc...) that we can call 7. And while we're calling it 7 we can finally turn off a bunch of the historic "Yeah turns out those were a terrible idea" misfeatures of the past (e.g. indirect) 2021-05-10T00:11:27Z LeoNerd: So from a technical perspective, a "perl 7" won't be a huge massive change from the usual, just another point along the continual path of improvement. It just stands as a nice marketing perspective because, at that point it really will be quite a different language from the original 5.000 of two decades ago 2021-05-10T00:23:30Z mdhughes: But I was expecting Perl7 to be a thing this year. That's the timeline where it matters. In 4 more years, there's nobody left doing anything but maintenance on old Perl5. 2021-05-10T00:24:12Z LeoNerd: Right, but what features were you expecting it to have? Those don't _exist_ yet 2021-05-10T00:24:19Z LeoNerd: So we'd need some time to write them 2021-05-10T00:24:22Z mdhughes: Until the defaults are completely different, and basic features other languages have had for 20 years are in, it's not interesting. 2021-05-10T00:24:26Z mdhughes: FUNCTION PROTOTYPES. 2021-05-10T00:24:29Z mdhughes: CLASSES. 2021-05-10T00:24:33Z LeoNerd: We can write them and call them bits of 5.x for now. E.g. I added try/catch in 5.34 2021-05-10T00:24:37Z LeoNerd: That'll be out in a couple of weeks time 2021-05-10T00:24:40Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-10T00:24:41Z mdhughes: Try/catch, too. 2021-05-10T00:24:54Z LeoNerd: Yes. We don't have classes yet. The closest idea there is my Object::Pad module. That'll eventually be moved into core. 2021-05-10T00:24:56Z LeoNerd: That takes time 2021-05-10T00:25:16Z LeoNerd: If you want a 7 to launch with these features, those need to be written. We need to do /something/ in the meantime 2021-05-10T00:25:33Z mdhughes: But in the real world, it has to compete with, say, Scheme, Julia, Python, Kotlin, etc. 2021-05-10T00:25:54Z LeoNerd: Sure. So in the meantime we still need to be releasing regular updates. Which is what we're doing 2021-05-10T00:26:06Z LeoNerd: Again: see 5.34, out in a couple of weeks time. Adds try/catch 2021-05-10T00:26:08Z LeoNerd: Because I added it 2021-05-10T00:27:02Z mdhughes: Yeah, but I'd have to figure out where to enable it, in a 20-line prologue for each file, and make sure any machine running it has that specific version. 2021-05-10T00:27:38Z LeoNerd: You'd have to make sure every machine had a 7 as well though, so I don't see the difference 2021-05-10T00:27:59Z mdhughes: What would be sane is: #!/usr/bin/env perl7 … code using perl7 features. 2021-05-10T00:28:00Z LeoNerd: Yes the "lots of pragmas" argument is valid there, and again that's the entire point of the current 7 plan. You just use v7; and it turns on all those things 2021-05-10T00:30:44Z mdhughes: That's one of the things that had me switch from CHICKEN to Chez Scheme. CHICKEN: 20+ lines of imports to get basic functionality like Unicode, and it's slow. Chez: One-line import in most cases. 2021-05-10T00:39:31Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-10T00:46:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T00:53:26Z jcowan: You mean Chicken is slow, or the Unicode egg is slow? 2021-05-10T01:02:02Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-10T01:06:23Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-10T01:06:38Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T01:07:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T01:09:17Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-10T01:09:52Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-10T01:14:53Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-10T01:21:36Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T01:22:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T01:28:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-10T01:53:12Z mdhughes: Well, both. When compiled, CHICKEN is moderate speed, but utf8 strings are very slow, even for simple operations (comparisons, hashing into hashtables), let alone anything complex. 2021-05-10T01:53:35Z mdhughes: But compiling a big CHICKEN program takes forever. 2021-05-10T01:54:47Z mdhughes: Got to the point where I was having to benchmark everything I did just to see if it'd cause a massive speed regression. More time doing that than making new features. 2021-05-10T01:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T01:58:31Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-10T02:02:04Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-10T02:05:32Z mdhughes: As I've noted before, what I want from languages is: Job 1: Do the thing easier than C. Job 2: Be fast. Job 3: Everything else. 2021-05-10T02:06:25Z mdhughes: I can put up with a fair amount of hassle to get a thing set up, but not infinite; eventually it's easier to find all the dumb C libraries I need. 2021-05-10T02:10:16Z jcowan: What percentage of C speed counts as "fast"? 2021-05-10T02:20:42Z mdhughes: .25? .1 in some cases is tolerable. 2021-05-10T02:21:15Z mdhughes: Python at .001 would make me stabby, except so much of it is running C libraries where it's 1.0 2021-05-10T02:22:00Z m1dow joined #scheme 2021-05-10T02:23:20Z mdhughes: Dumb primes benchmark: https://mdhughes.tech/2019/04/23/how-fast-is-my-scheme/ 2021-05-10T02:25:31Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-10T02:55:04Z midow joined #scheme 2021-05-10T02:58:19Z m1dow quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-10T03:01:58Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-10T03:03:24Z johnjay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-05-10T03:03:26Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-05-10T03:03:57Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-10T03:04:06Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T03:04:48Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-10T03:11:26Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-10T03:20:29Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-10T03:22:46Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T03:26:58Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-10T03:27:32Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T03:29:36Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-10T03:30:45Z foof: that's not the real sieve: https://www.cs.hmc.edu/~oneill/papers/Sieve-JFP.pdf 2021-05-10T03:31:30Z siraben: foof: that's a great paper, I need to get a number theory friend to help me with it sometime 2021-05-10T03:32:44Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-10T03:32:47Z foof: also, the utf8 egg doesn't slow down string hashing or comparisons 2021-05-10T03:33:37Z foof: (although if you import utf8 and then implement your own custom string routines using string-ref it will be slower) 2021-05-10T03:36:01Z foof: when done right utf8 is faster than any of the alternatives, but much of the scheme community wants to still write programs with string-ref which becomes slow. 2021-05-10T03:37:10Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-10T03:40:16Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-10T03:45:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T03:49:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-10T03:53:29Z mdhughes: Every one of those clever operations takes time; not archiving your results is stupid. And the point of the classic primes benchmark is checking looping, arrays, and basic math operators. Which are often surprisingly different between languages/impls. 2021-05-10T03:56:10Z mdhughes: Oh, and some basic I/O, printing the results out. That's actually the highest cost in some cases. 2021-05-10T04:10:24Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-05-10T04:20:56Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-10T04:23:34Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-05-10T04:23:52Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-10T04:23:56Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-10T04:25:43Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-10T04:42:50Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T04:44:13Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-05-10T04:44:33Z foof: What clever operations? What results aren't being archived? o_O 2021-05-10T04:49:53Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-10T04:51:30Z pounce_ is now known as pounce 2021-05-10T05:00:39Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-10T05:16:24Z mdhughes: The dumb functional version it leads with, is recomputing everything every time. That's not what I'm doing, nobody does that except Haskellers. 2021-05-10T05:16:55Z mdhughes: And all the complex list operations, merging and unions, are slower than just making an array and modifying it like a 2500-year-old mathematician did. 2021-05-10T05:18:26Z mdhughes: Correction: 2300-year-old. 2021-05-10T05:23:19Z cjb quit 2021-05-10T05:28:04Z Zipheir: mdhughes: I think it's worth reading the whole paper. A cursory skim indicates they're also interested in developing a better algorithm than the naïve sieve at the beginning. 2021-05-10T05:29:49Z mdhughes: I did skim it after the first part. But it's so tied up in Haskell's model of making more lists rather than modifying data in place, it's not really useful. 2021-05-10T05:30:32Z Zipheir: To you, perhaps. 2021-05-10T05:30:48Z Zipheir: I'd like to suggest that it's worth reading, regardless. 2021-05-10T05:32:09Z mdhughes: I don't really feel like installing ghc to benchmark it, but every allocation is just making it worse. 2021-05-10T05:32:25Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-10T05:32:38Z Zipheir: Creating a more (lazy) lists with carefully-controlled evaluation of the elements of those lists can be efficient indeed. 2021-05-10T05:32:46Z Zipheir: s/ a// 2021-05-10T05:36:15Z Zipheir: Confronted with unfamiliar ways of doing things, we have the option of (a) deciding it's a waste of time on first sight, and (b) examining the idea in depth and carefully evaluating it. The former option might give you an arsenal of punchy IRC comments, but the latter may lead to new learning. 2021-05-10T05:37:47Z Zipheir: Anyway, I'm vaccine-woozy and so... good night, all. 2021-05-10T05:43:58Z mdhughes: I've also spent some time studying Haskell, I'm not just dismissive because I'm a jerk, but because I'm a jerk who's pegged the CPU enough with it to not go back. 2021-05-10T05:46:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T05:50:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T06:24:24Z xsperry: mdhughes, for someone who spent time studying haskell, you should know that primes is replacing thunks with computed values. so "recomputing everything every time" is completely false, and is not the reason why the initial algorithm is slow 2021-05-10T06:25:45Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-10T06:29:03Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-10T06:31:37Z jacks2 joined #scheme 2021-05-10T06:33:26Z jacks2 left #scheme 2021-05-10T06:33:56Z xsperry quit (Quit: quit) 2021-05-10T06:34:01Z jacks2 joined #scheme 2021-05-10T06:40:15Z foof: mdhughes: it's reasonable to not care for the purpose of your benchmark, but don't dismiss that paper - it's algorithmically faster 2021-05-10T06:40:35Z foof: your code is O(n^2), but the sieve is O(n^2/lg^2(n)) 2021-05-10T06:41:05Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-05-10T06:44:13Z foof: ... and the proper sieve is O(n log n log log n) 2021-05-10T06:45:13Z mdhughes: Faster than the naïve version, but not the sieve with an array, which is not n^2 but O(n log log n) 2021-05-10T06:49:23Z mdhughes: There is a faster-not functional/filling up all RAM with lists-way to do that, according to other papers, but it's not so bad that I care, I'm not trying to find all primes for crypto or whatever, but run something kinda representative of actual code. 2021-05-10T06:50:30Z mdhughes: The thing where someone has learned one trick, and completely loses sight of the actual goal, is why I often disparage Eddie Haskells. 2021-05-10T06:52:04Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T06:53:02Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T06:53:15Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-05-10T06:53:41Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-10T06:56:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T07:00:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T07:29:20Z ChoHag: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nPo8up-CfXc/TmjmkzfY5NI/AAAAAAAAA2o/UD2OM-M1kDI/s1600/haskell.jpg 2021-05-10T07:29:53Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T07:30:39Z mdhughes: It's just that easy! 2021-05-10T07:35:11Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-10T07:36:51Z ChoHag: Meanwhile "This is how we print a newline in Scheme" is 25 identical images, all different. 2021-05-10T07:40:25Z mdhughes: (newline) is one of the few things I can count on not breaking in each! 2021-05-10T07:41:01Z mdhughes: But whether I have print, println, print*, printf, format, or have to make those from (display), total random chance. 2021-05-10T07:47:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T07:51:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-10T08:02:49Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-10T08:06:06Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T08:08:03Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-05-10T08:10:21Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T08:38:52Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-10T08:45:21Z rdd joined #scheme 2021-05-10T08:52:26Z amirouche: if they are identical they are not different :D 2021-05-10T08:58:10Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-10T08:58:47Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-05-10T09:09:30Z epony joined #scheme 2021-05-10T09:23:08Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-10T09:48:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T09:52:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T10:34:51Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T10:46:26Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-10T11:02:32Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-10T11:08:36Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-10T11:08:36Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-05-10T11:08:36Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-10T11:13:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T11:14:40Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-10T11:18:00Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-10T11:29:33Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T11:30:43Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-10T11:31:49Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-05-10T11:37:52Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T11:44:51Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-05-10T12:09:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T12:16:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-10T12:59:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T13:04:00Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-10T13:09:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T13:12:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T13:21:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-10T13:23:17Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-10T13:28:01Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T13:28:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-10T13:30:26Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-10T13:30:31Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-10T13:32:21Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T13:36:56Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-10T13:37:35Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-10T13:50:38Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-10T14:07:06Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T14:07:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T14:08:41Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-05-10T14:11:11Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T14:11:21Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-05-10T14:11:25Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T14:11:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-10T14:14:45Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T14:16:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-10T14:17:14Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-10T14:18:34Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-10T14:20:04Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-10T14:23:34Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-10T14:39:25Z midow quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-05-10T14:56:10Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-10T14:59:33Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T15:02:20Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-10T15:10:28Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T15:11:30Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-05-10T15:12:16Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-05-10T15:29:27Z rj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-10T15:29:48Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-10T15:34:51Z amirouche: discovery of the day a feed reader https://fraidyc.at/ (firefox, chrome also available standalone as .deb, use nodejs) 2021-05-10T15:37:19Z wasamasa: it better be written in scheme 2021-05-10T15:39:23Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-10T15:40:05Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-10T15:43:57Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-10T15:47:36Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-10T16:13:19Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-10T16:15:58Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-10T16:18:48Z Zipheir: amirouche: Yeah, in the absence of context I'd like links posted to the channel to be Scheme-related. 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Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the IRC world.) 2021-05-11T09:40:07Z irc_user quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-11T09:40:14Z ecraven: ;) 2021-05-11T10:05:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T10:09:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-11T10:22:30Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-11T10:48:00Z nilgeisw joined #scheme 2021-05-11T10:50:21Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-11T11:00:55Z kopiyka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T11:01:19Z kopiyka joined #scheme 2021-05-11T11:21:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T11:26:00Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-11T11:27:27Z eMBee quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-11T11:27:36Z eMBee joined #scheme 2021-05-11T11:29:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T11:34:28Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-11T11:35:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T11:35:53Z Formbi quit (Quit: Stable ZNC provider ##bnc4you) 2021-05-11T11:36:41Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T11:37:59Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-11T11:37:59Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-11T11:37:59Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-11T11:38:16Z Formbi joined #scheme 2021-05-11T11:38:32Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T11:40:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-11T11:46:43Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-11T11:49:19Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-11T12:01:18Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-11T12:10:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T12:12:49Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T12:13:10Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-05-11T12:20:07Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-11T12:22:47Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T12:26:34Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-05-11T12:28:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-11T12:34:22Z Lysander_ joined #scheme 2021-05-11T12:35:37Z Lysandros quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-11T12:35:57Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-11T12:50:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T12:56:33Z Lysander_ is now known as Lysandros 2021-05-11T12:56:49Z Lysandros quit (Changing host) 2021-05-11T12:56:49Z Lysandros joined #scheme 2021-05-11T13:01:52Z dbohdan joined #scheme 2021-05-11T13:02:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-11T13:02:37Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-11T13:04:46Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-11T13:06:11Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-11T13:07:59Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-11T13:08:32Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-11T13:08:40Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-11T13:08:48Z notzmv is now known as Guest84063 2021-05-11T13:11:30Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.2)) 2021-05-11T13:11:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T13:15:29Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T13:15:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T13:19:17Z Guest84063 is now known as ntzmv 2021-05-11T13:20:07Z ntzmv is now known as notzmv 2021-05-11T13:24:52Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-11T13:42:05Z indathrone joined #scheme 2021-05-11T13:42:51Z dpk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-11T14:04:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-11T14:33:17Z dpk joined #scheme 2021-05-11T14:39:49Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-11T14:41:47Z m1dnight1 is now known as m1dnight_ 2021-05-11T14:42:30Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T14:45:28Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-11T14:47:11Z jeko_ quit (Quit: jeko_) 2021-05-11T14:47:47Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T14:51:09Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-11T14:58:58Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-05-11T15:16:28Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-11T15:28:58Z lloda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T15:29:16Z lloda joined #scheme 2021-05-11T15:29:19Z brendyyn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-11T15:30:08Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T15:30:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T15:35:55Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-11T15:36:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T15:39:13Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-11T15:40:49Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-11T15:44:21Z brendyyn joined #scheme 2021-05-11T15:49:08Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-11T15:54:57Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-11T16:00:12Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-11T16:01:03Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-11T16:02:39Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-05-11T16:07:49Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-11T16:11:47Z kopiyka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T16:12:13Z kopiyka joined #scheme 2021-05-11T16:12:39Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-11T16:15:56Z drakonis: https://github.com/zyrolasting/xiden 2021-05-11T16:16:10Z drakonis: someone went and made a nix/guix in racket 2021-05-11T16:24:28Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-11T16:31:54Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-11T16:34:23Z GoGi quit (Quit: GoGi) 2021-05-11T16:40:33Z GoGi joined #scheme 2021-05-11T16:45:08Z dbohdan: Cool! 2021-05-11T16:55:50Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T16:59:31Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T17:03:19Z civodul: drakonis: nice! though at first sight it's not comparable 2021-05-11T17:03:34Z drakonis: not yet i suppose 2021-05-11T17:03:43Z drakonis: it is still very fresh right now 2021-05-11T17:04:01Z drakonis: but the goals seem to extend to doing something on par with guix and nix's linux distributions in the future 2021-05-11T17:04:49Z drakonis: there is a lot of room for inspiration though 2021-05-11T17:06:13Z drakonis: i'm interested on whether it'll also go for broke with racket all the way down 2021-05-11T17:06:35Z drakonis: racket based init with a racket shell and racket cron 2021-05-11T17:06:58Z drakonis: but that's still some time away 2021-05-11T17:07:08Z Zipheir: Sounds like a good idea. I've always been a bit bemused by NixOS's reliance on C++. 2021-05-11T17:07:28Z drakonis: guix still relies on the nix daemon for some operations at the moment 2021-05-11T17:07:40Z drakonis: there's an ongoing project to get rid of it 2021-05-11T17:09:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T17:09:34Z drakonis: i'm absolutely excited about it because racket is the one lisp i'd go all in with using 2021-05-11T17:11:33Z jcowan: Given a function that takes a foo and returns a mutable foo, should the signature be immutable-foo->mutable-foo or foo->mutable-foo? The first is more convenient, but the second kinda leaves it open whether it's allowed to return its argument if that argument is already mutable. 2021-05-11T17:13:11Z civodul: drakonis: sounds like the main arguments are: 1) Racket, 2) Windows support 2021-05-11T17:13:14Z civodul: that's pretty weak to me 2021-05-11T17:13:22Z drakonis: racket carriest other advantages 2021-05-11T17:13:25Z civodul: esp. that proper Windows support is not doable by definition 2021-05-11T17:13:37Z civodul: one cannot package Windows's libc, etc. 2021-05-11T17:13:49Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-11T17:14:00Z drakonis: yeah that one's also in the cons for it in the talk 2021-05-11T17:14:40Z gwatt: Do you need to package window's libc? 2021-05-11T17:14:49Z drakonis: probably not 2021-05-11T17:14:59Z civodul: they mention "reproducible builds" 2021-05-11T17:15:09Z civodul: so my take is that there must be something to build in the first place 2021-05-11T17:15:10Z civodul: :-) 2021-05-11T17:15:12Z drakonis: this talk is for the initial "do racket first" 2021-05-11T17:15:18Z drakonis: goal 2021-05-11T17:15:27Z drakonis: then go for the other stuff that came up later 2021-05-11T17:15:35Z drakonis: the goals changed later 2021-05-11T17:15:50Z civodul: ok 2021-05-11T17:16:33Z civodul: anyway, i'm excited to see more work on functional package management, but i'm disappointed that Racketeers don't chime in on Guix 2021-05-11T17:16:48Z drakonis: https://groups.google.com/g/racket-users/c/j0rOqkaaDss/m/lLUjAKl1BgAJ this is far more recent 2021-05-11T17:17:19Z drakonis: it is instead cross platform, rather than advertising windows support 2021-05-11T17:17:31Z drakonis: so its basically able to run on macs and windows as well, which is not unlike what nix does 2021-05-11T17:18:18Z civodul nods 2021-05-11T17:19:22Z drakonis: its a new and exciting thing, so i'm still at the honeymoon phase with it 2021-05-11T17:20:19Z civodul: :-) 2021-05-11T17:21:10Z drakonis: there is always something to be gained from the existence of new work 2021-05-11T17:26:11Z drakonis: there is something i've noticed in its docs that is highly interesting 2021-05-11T17:26:21Z mason: drakonis: I'd tend to think Chicken would be the right Scheme for a GUIX fork. 2021-05-11T17:26:29Z drakonis: it handles package vartiations rather elegantly 2021-05-11T17:26:42Z drakonis: editions and versions that is 2021-05-11T17:26:57Z drakonis: its something that is very very messy on nix 2021-05-11T17:27:45Z drakonis: do explain why 2021-05-11T17:28:30Z dpk: jcowan: depends if the default/most common/expected state of foos is mutable or not, i'd say 2021-05-11T17:28:37Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-11T17:29:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-11T17:29:17Z dpk: (however, i would say foo and ifoo in any case, following the example of pairs and ipairs that we now have) 2021-05-11T17:29:56Z dpk: so i guess ifoo->foo 2021-05-11T17:29:58Z drakonis: i'd like to hear about it 2021-05-11T17:30:18Z dpk: or ifoo->mfoo if we take SRFI 140's use of an m prefix as establishing a canonical convention 2021-05-11T17:30:27Z drakonis: civodul: how much does guix still inherit from nix other than the daemon? 2021-05-11T17:30:35Z drakonis: and the shared concepts? 2021-05-11T17:30:49Z jcowan: I'm dealing with strings, which in this SRFI are a union of mstrings and istrings. I think it has to be string->mstring with a spec that mstrings have to be copied. 2021-05-11T17:30:49Z Zipheir: I wonder if they mean to use Typed Racket. 2021-05-11T17:33:25Z Zipheir: Probably not. If so, I imagine they would have started with it. 2021-05-11T17:33:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-11T17:34:13Z Zipheir: jcowan: Why do you say istring->mstring is more convenient? 2021-05-11T17:34:59Z jcowan: I should have said "The second is more convenient, but leaves it open ..." 2021-05-11T17:35:44Z jcowan: The problem with the first is that it's not always clear what is and what is not an mstring. A literal, for example, can be either an mstring or an istring. 2021-05-11T17:36:01Z Zipheir: It can? 2021-05-11T17:36:26Z Zipheir: I would assume literals were istrings. 2021-05-11T17:36:57Z jcowan: In Kawa, where istrings are built-in, that's true. But in a portable implementation, you cannot ask if a string is a literal or not. 2021-05-11T17:37:42Z jcowan: and indeed in Chicken, you can in fact mutate literals. 2021-05-11T17:38:11Z Zipheir: So is the problem with the definition of istring, or with the definition of istring->mstring? 2021-05-11T17:40:27Z jcowan: GIven a string c, where you want an mstring d, istring->mstring will not reliably work if c is one of the "conceptually immutable strings". 2021-05-11T17:42:15Z jcowan: but string->mstring will always work provided the argument is always copied. 2021-05-11T17:42:34Z jcowan: And I think that makes sense. 2021-05-11T17:43:27Z Zipheir: I agree. 2021-05-11T17:44:12Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-11T17:44:28Z Zipheir: And there's no (portable) way to detect "conceptually immutable strings", I take it. 2021-05-11T17:45:21Z mdhughes: In Objective-C, the -[s mutableString] message will return s if it's already a mutable string. 2021-05-11T17:46:34Z mdhughes: If an impl can't tell if it's a "mutable but shouldn't", then they'd have to be wasteful, I suppose, but if they can, they should be allowed to return the object for efficiency. 2021-05-11T17:47:41Z Zipheir: (string->mstring! s), "returns s, or, if s is an istring, a mutable string with the same contents of s." 2021-05-11T17:47:53Z Zipheir: Too bad it's likely not portable. 2021-05-11T17:48:14Z Zipheir: s/contents of/contents as/ 2021-05-11T17:50:32Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-11T17:53:22Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-11T17:56:05Z Zipheir: SRFI 140: "SRFI 135 is a wart, it's not backward compatible, etc.". 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Not sure if it's the quadruple recursion or the exit condition is never found. :P draw-point is a dummy function for later implementation. https://pastebin.com/0EzCvAkx 2021-05-12T15:15:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: And yes, I know recursion is probably less efficient than scanline rasterization. :P 2021-05-12T15:21:07Z klovett_ is now known as klovett 2021-05-12T15:23:35Z wasamasa: quadruple recursion, lol 2021-05-12T15:23:44Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-12T15:24:32Z wasamasa: well, the most important thing is that you eventually run into the base case 2021-05-12T15:24:44Z wasamasa: like, prove that every time you reduce the workload 2021-05-12T15:25:11Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T15:26:25Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T15:26:25Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-12T15:26:25Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T15:28:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: Well (close-enough? (make-point 0 0) (make-point -.5 0) (make-point .5 .5)) seems to return #t ... 2021-05-12T15:29:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: The idea being that if the truncated x components match and the truncated y components match the point is "on the same pixel". 2021-05-12T15:32:41Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T15:35:24Z Zipheir: Pixel_Outlaw: It's not strictly recursive, but rather tail-recursive, so one possibility is to avoid the "quadrupled tail-call" by flattening the whole thing out. 2021-05-12T15:37:10Z Zipheir: Pixel_Outlaw: As for your efficiency point, a tail-loop is about as time-efficient as you can get in Scheme. 2021-05-12T15:37:36Z amirouche: It would be easier to test if draw-triangle return a list of pair where each pair is start and end of a segment. 2021-05-12T15:38:13Z Zipheir: Yeah, I was going to suggest generating a list of the segments (or whatever) to test. 2021-05-12T15:41:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hmm can you show me what you mean? I don't quite follow. 2021-05-12T15:42:03Z rj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T15:42:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just so I'm clear this should draw a filled triangle not just an outline by subdividing segments. 2021-05-12T15:42:26Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T15:43:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: The fill eventually comes from that last case when all points are roughly equal. 2021-05-12T15:43:45Z Zipheir: Is there someway to construct a value (representation) with draw-triangle, rather than having it operate by I/O? 2021-05-12T15:44:28Z Zipheir: If it *were* drawing lines, e.g., this might be a list of line-segments, as amirouche says. 2021-05-12T15:46:39Z Zipheir: If that's too much rewriting, perhaps define a trivial draw-point which gives you some feedback: (define (draw-point pt) (display pt) (newline)) 2021-05-12T15:47:10Z Pixel_Outlaw: I see what you mean there. 2021-05-12T15:47:20Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yes, I can just make it display to buffer to debug. 2021-05-12T15:47:33Z Pixel_Outlaw: I did similar but it flooded the repl with thousands and thousands of lines. 2021-05-12T15:47:35Z Pixel_Outlaw: of code 2021-05-12T15:48:22Z Pixel_Outlaw: Maybe I can use a little delay there though between calls or batch them to debug. 2021-05-12T15:48:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: Otherwise Emacs cholkes on a Chicken. :P 2021-05-12T15:48:57Z Zipheir: Draw a tiny triangle? 2021-05-12T15:49:44Z Pixel_Outlaw: I tried that too (draw-triangle (make-point 0 0) (make-point 1 0) (make-point 0 1)) 2021-05-12T15:49:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: You can pop the whole code into a REPL and see for yourself. 2021-05-12T15:50:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: Something is not exiting... 2021-05-12T15:50:06Z Zipheir: It sounds like the base-case isn't being reached. 2021-05-12T15:50:17Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: yep, the problem is with mid-point and the exit condition, working on it. 2021-05-12T15:50:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Cool, thank you amirouche 2021-05-12T15:50:56Z amirouche: btw the default behavior of number operation is to use exact numbers such as (/ 1 2) = 1/2 2021-05-12T15:51:54Z amirouche: it is prolly not what you want if you plan to draw pixels 2021-05-12T15:52:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: I see, thank you. In Common Lisp I think I get similar. 2021-05-12T15:53:36Z amirouche: oh but you truncate, that is ok then.. 2021-05-12T15:54:12Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: sorry! add truncate in mid-point to compute mid-x and mid-y then retry, it is still buggy but.. 2021-05-12T15:57:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: amirouche: I'll give it a whack, if I blip out of here it's because Emacs is drowning in recursion. I might choke Chicken. 2021-05-12T15:58:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: *Chicken Scheme 2021-05-12T15:59:23Z Zipheir: Consider also refactoring it as a pure iteration. 2021-05-12T16:00:19Z Zipheir: Since those non-tail-position calls aren't returning any useful values, but are nevertheless "pushing frames". 2021-05-12T16:00:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: Zipheir: Does that mean storing thousands of triangles and mutating a generational list with each pass? 2021-05-12T16:00:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: Exiting when all triangles are like 1 pixel big? 2021-05-12T16:01:10Z Zipheir: Nope, I don't think so. 2021-05-12T16:01:52Z Zipheir: Hmm, I'll have to look at it again. 2021-05-12T16:01:57Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T16:01:59Z Pixel_Outlaw: amirouche: It looks like (draw-triangle (make-point 0 0) (make-point 10 0) (make-point 0 10)) will give it some fits. 2021-05-12T16:02:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: amirouche: but with points (0 0) (1 0) (0 1) it seems to exit 2021-05-12T16:05:15Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:05:48Z amirouche: I am still looking, maybe instead of close-enough, you need a fixed point. 2021-05-12T16:06:12Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T16:06:29Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: Points converge use pt1? how so ? 2021-05-12T16:06:33Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:08:59Z amirouche: it does not necessarly converge to pt1, it might be pt2 or pt3.. 2021-05-12T16:09:42Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:09:44Z amirouche: all three points converge but not necessarly to one of the original input points. 2021-05-12T16:11:15Z Pixel_Outlaw: amirouche: My notion is that they converge closely enough that drawing a pixel at (int, int) should be approximation enough. 2021-05-12T16:11:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: maybe, they're half a pixel apart and we have to rasterize someplace so just draw to pt1 2021-05-12T16:12:20Z Pixel_Outlaw: draw-point is just output 2021-05-12T16:12:58Z Pixel_Outlaw: And it currently just returns "1" as a dummy value. Later it will actually put a point on a canvas depending on which scheme library I use. 2021-05-12T16:15:20Z manumanumanu: Does anyone have a copy of Olin's old "anatomy of a loop" code? It seems that if I am ever going to feel "done" with writing looping facilities, I might as well go for the holy grail. The paper is a bit hard to penetrate, so code might be better 2021-05-12T16:17:02Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-12T16:17:46Z ecraven joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:23:22Z Zipheir: manumanumanu: Hah, if you find it, be sure to tell us. 2021-05-12T16:23:52Z Zipheir: I've often referred to Olin Loop as the "Flying Dutchman of Scheme". 2021-05-12T16:26:38Z Zipheir: Folklore says it's enormous. 2021-05-12T16:28:46Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-12T16:34:47Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:35:33Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:35:43Z terpri quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-12T16:36:05Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:36:11Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:36:23Z terpri_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-12T16:36:26Z Lysander_ quit (Changing host) 2021-05-12T16:36:26Z Lysander_ joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:36:32Z Lysander_ is now known as Lysandros 2021-05-12T16:42:21Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: I am still look ^^' 2021-05-12T16:46:45Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T16:47:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: amirouche: I'm tearing it apart myself, too. It's a really really really obscure bug. 2021-05-12T16:49:20Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T16:49:21Z Pixel_Outlaw: Maybe my approach in close enough is wrong. How does one mathmatically test to see if threed 2D points are within 1 pixel of each other... 2021-05-12T16:50:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: *three 2021-05-12T16:58:26Z wasamasa: sounds like a school question 2021-05-12T16:59:07Z Zipheir: Why? 2021-05-12T16:59:20Z wasamasa: because I think I've solved that kind of stuff during my finals 2021-05-12T16:59:27Z Zipheir: Ah, ok. 2021-05-12T16:59:29Z wasamasa: I forgot most of algebra though 2021-05-12T17:00:23Z wasamasa: rudybot: and this kids is why I'll never build a game that's more advanced than tetris 2021-05-12T17:00:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: Heh, algebra in school is the opposite of what a programmer does. We define the variables and the computer solves. 2021-05-12T17:00:30Z siraben: Pixel_Outlaw: depends on the size of the pixels 2021-05-12T17:00:40Z siraben: that should just be checking euclidean distance less than the pixel diagonal then 2021-05-12T17:01:19Z wasamasa: what if two out of three points converge, lol 2021-05-12T17:01:28Z rudybot: wasamasa: watching your talk you gave a few hours back, pretty nice. tetris really is a great choice for an advanced hello world. simple enough and tricky enough. 2021-05-12T17:01:30Z Zipheir: We do plenty of algebra, of a more abstract kind than "high-school" algebra, at least. 2021-05-12T17:02:00Z wasamasa: I'd just print out a list of all compared points and visually scan it for convergence 2021-05-12T17:02:47Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T17:02:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: Solve for x: "Well, I mean clearly x is a lexically bound symbol in a LET form" "Teacher ... no no what number does it represent?" "Well, that's for the computer to calculate" 2021-05-12T17:02:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: :P 2021-05-12T17:03:20Z Zipheir: If *we* bound x, I'd hope we know what it denotes... 2021-05-12T17:04:12Z Zipheir: Relevant: https://ro-che.info/ccc/18 2021-05-12T17:04:37Z Zipheir: (Vaguely.) 2021-05-12T17:06:22Z Pixel_Outlaw: heh 2021-05-12T17:10:11Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: btw, it easier I think to build the triangles bottom up.. but I am still trying to figure the bug. 2021-05-12T17:10:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: amirouche: I'm going to see if the deviation between compoents is < 1 next. :P 2021-05-12T17:10:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: for close-enough 2021-05-12T17:14:58Z Noisytoot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-12T17:15:49Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-05-12T17:17:18Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: I think I have something 2021-05-12T17:17:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: Good, thought I might have the program that broke #scheme. :P 2021-05-12T17:18:27Z amirouche: the gist of the problem on my side at least, is a set of points that generate the same triangle over and over again. 2021-05-12T17:18:54Z amirouche: the same triangle produce the same triangle when computing the subtriangles. 2021-05-12T17:19:37Z amirouche: it is possible, it seems, because x / 2 never reach zero except if x is 0. and since x is a - b where a != b, x is never zero. 2021-05-12T17:20:08Z amirouche: even with rationales the program will not end, except if you use a close enough measure. 2021-05-12T17:20:30Z amirouche: I think both our programs diverged. So, do you want to see my program, and give you a hint with your program to make it work. 2021-05-12T17:20:35Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: ? 2021-05-12T17:20:44Z Pixel_Outlaw: sure 2021-05-12T17:21:22Z amirouche: https://paste.gnome.org/poxp0l0ci 2021-05-12T17:22:21Z amirouche: line 37, there is the condition, that allows to eliminate triangles that create that produce the same triangle. 2021-05-12T17:23:00Z amirouche: but they only appear the same because of integers, otherwise with rationales they are always different. 2021-05-12T17:23:32Z amirouche: otherwise said, there is an infinite way to subdide a triangle into 4 other triangles.. 2021-05-12T17:23:45Z amirouche: recursively. 2021-05-12T17:24:08Z amirouche: simpler: any triangle can be subdivived into 4 triangles. 2021-05-12T17:25:17Z amirouche: btw 2 is fixed as the first integer bigger than the diagonal of unit square. 2021-05-12T17:26:45Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T17:27:08Z amirouche: the first integer bigger than sqrt(2) 2021-05-12T17:28:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: I see 2021-05-12T17:28:21Z Pixel_Outlaw: took a bit to grok 2021-05-12T17:29:09Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T17:29:34Z amirouche: also, it is tail recursive. 2021-05-12T17:29:50Z amirouche: Thanks btw for the problem. I will keep around to explain how to write such procedure. 2021-05-12T17:29:58Z Pixel_Outlaw: You're generating a loop (out) of triangles represented by points if I read this correctly. 2021-05-12T17:30:13Z amirouche: my previous example, was dijstra algorithm or similar. 2021-05-12T17:30:19Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: yes 2021-05-12T17:31:07Z Pixel_Outlaw: I wonder if each loop we check to see which are smaller than 1 pixel, plot and remove them? 2021-05-12T17:31:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: sorry "draw-point" and remove them from being passed on 2021-05-12T17:32:06Z amirouche: you may check that the triangle surface is less than something yes? 2021-05-12T17:32:17Z amirouche: and return. 2021-05-12T17:32:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just thinking of a way to reduce out as we pass it on. 2021-05-12T17:32:37Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-12T17:32:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: Still reading a bit not 100% parsed 2021-05-12T17:33:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: It may be that your on screen triangle is (0,0) (640 0) (480 0). That's a LOT of baby triangles to pass on if they've an area of less than 1. 2021-05-12T17:33:47Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-12T17:33:48Z amirouche: yes 2021-05-12T17:34:06Z Pixel_Outlaw: This is great work though, thanks amirouche 2021-05-12T17:34:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: Maybe a prune n draw function for out might come next. 2021-05-12T17:35:19Z amirouche: sure for performance purpose drawing directly is better, but if you cache the baby triagnles, it can work. 2021-05-12T17:35:20Z Pixel_Outlaw: BUT that'd slow it down with each recursion. AH, the old memory vs speed argument. 2021-05-12T17:38:17Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-12T17:38:54Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-12T17:39:09Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-12T17:40:12Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T17:44:06Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:00:49Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:06:41Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T18:08:21Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T18:09:38Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:09:38Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-12T18:09:38Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:14:45Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T18:16:44Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:21:03Z manumanumanu: Zipheir: dang. Well, then: I'll write it myself. My current syntax-rules loop macro weigs in at about 50kb of code, sparsly commented. It does a lot of the things olin's loops do, but without the initial block, and (the big one) the chained (when ...) and (bind ...) clauses, which seem useful. The other thing olin's loops do is the ability to have (do ...) blocks in any subloop, which can be handy 2021-05-12T18:21:06Z manumanumanu: as well. 2021-05-12T18:21:12Z manumanumanu: famous last words. 2021-05-12T18:25:51Z aukkras quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-12T18:30:46Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T18:31:13Z Zipheir: manumanumanu: How about scope? IIRC that was the thing that Olin worked hardest on. 2021-05-12T18:31:37Z aukkras joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:31:48Z Zipheir: (Though, as foof pointed out, some of the scope rules seem odd.) 2021-05-12T18:32:23Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:32:39Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-12T18:33:18Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:33:18Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-12T18:33:18Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:35:07Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-12T18:35:18Z manumanumanu: Zipheir: I will answer yes: currently everything within a subloop has a weird and quite non-intuitive order in the expansion. The order of clauses within a subloop do not matter 2021-05-12T18:36:21Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T18:36:23Z manumanumanu: But I think I can adapt it do be more like olin's loops. There is a little bit more state that has to be passed around, and I think I am already at some kind of limit to how much syntax-rules my brain can handle, but I have an idea 2021-05-12T18:36:41Z manumanumanu: Zipheir: https://git.sr.ht/~bjoli/goof-loop/ 2021-05-12T18:37:41Z flatwhatson quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-12T18:38:30Z Zipheir: manumanumanu: Thanks! Nice name. :) 2021-05-12T18:38:51Z flatwhatson joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:39:40Z manumanumanu: It came about when I was trying to understand the (chibi loop) iterator protocol: I wrote/goofed in the chibi issue tracker that it could not support generators. Alex was surprisingly nice to me. 2021-05-12T18:42:51Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-12T18:44:13Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-12T18:44:27Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:44:52Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:47:41Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-12T18:50:40Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-12T18:50:50Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-12T18:55:00Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-05-12T18:59:57Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T19:01:46Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T19:04:39Z Pixel_Outlaw: amirouche: I wonder if this sheds light on anything? (truncate 4.99999999999999999999999) => 5.0. 2021-05-12T19:05:09Z Pixel_Outlaw: Shenanigans. :P 2021-05-12T19:10:45Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: @_@ 2021-05-12T19:10:54Z amirouche: Pixel_Outlaw: remove the truncate? 2021-05-12T19:11:15Z amirouche: maybe it is a precision error when encoding double flots or something. 2021-05-12T19:15:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thank heavens I'm not writing missle interception code in Scheme. :P 2021-05-12T19:16:18Z lavaflow joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:16:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: Or some life support system which depends on numeric stability. 2021-05-12T19:16:51Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T19:20:13Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-12T19:22:41Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T19:23:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:23:58Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-12T19:23:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:27:22Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:43:21Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:44:45Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T19:49:06Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T19:49:31Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:52:41Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-12T19:52:59Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:55:11Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:55:47Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:55:50Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-12T19:56:40Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-12T19:59:56Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T20:04:36Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-12T20:08:27Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-12T20:10:47Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-05-12T20:16:03Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-12T20:27:09Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T20:27:29Z metalchimp joined #scheme 2021-05-12T20:28:59Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-12T20:29:39Z metalchimp left #scheme 2021-05-12T20:34:21Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-12T20:35:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T20:35:36Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-12T20:35:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T20:44:02Z raingloom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T20:44:13Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T20:44:24Z evdubs_ is now known as evdubs 2021-05-12T20:47:01Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T20:47:14Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-12T20:48:17Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T21:00:11Z Pixel_Outlaw: *leak 2021-05-12T21:00:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: wrong window. :P 2021-05-12T21:03:11Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T21:04:00Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T21:04:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T21:04:28Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-12T21:04:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-12T21:04:35Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-12T21:06:55Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-12T21:12:21Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T21:13:46Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-12T21:23:40Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T21:24:28Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-05-12T21:28:07Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T21:34:58Z TCZ quit (Quit: ...) 2021-05-12T21:37:57Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-12T21:49:23Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-12T21:52:43Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-05-12T21:57:36Z cer-0 joined #scheme 2021-05-12T22:00:21Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-12T22:02:55Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-12T22:05:04Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-12T22:05:17Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T22:14:57Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T22:21:30Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T22:21:50Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T22:21:50Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-12T22:25:36Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-12T22:27:59Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-05-12T22:37:11Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-12T22:37:47Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-12T22:42:35Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-12T22:48:06Z _apg joined #scheme 2021-05-12T23:17:17Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Remember the score with javascript as target was 20K ms 2021-05-13T10:35:58Z amirouche: https://dpaste.com/433ELZDG2 2021-05-13T10:38:16Z amirouche: pyodide is cpython compiled to wasm with emscripten. 2021-05-13T11:05:38Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-13T11:05:50Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-13T11:05:51Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-05-13T11:05:51Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-13T11:20:20Z massn00b[m]: lmao what is this technogibberish 2021-05-13T11:23:32Z massn00b[m]: Not trying to be mean, I'm sure it's something cool. Just the jargon made me chuckle 2021-05-13T11:23:37Z wasamasa: JS overdose 2021-05-13T11:23:59Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-13T11:24:01Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-13T11:26:53Z amirouche: you are right, 50% of the words of that sentence are technojargongibberish 2021-05-13T11:28:35Z amirouche: emscripten will compile C programs to web assembly. Web assembly is language supported among other things by browsers, that is (much!) faster than JavaScript. 2021-05-13T11:29:10Z amirouche: pyodide is the cpython interepreter written in C compiled to Web Assembly, hence running in the browser. 2021-05-13T11:29:51Z amirouche: it is similar to what `make js` target does with chibi scheme. 2021-05-13T11:30:46Z wasamasa: pyodide doesn't seem terribly useful 2021-05-13T11:31:27Z wasamasa: yes, it proves the ancient CS adage that you can translate code from one language to another one with a compiler targeting an interpreter, but the result sucks 2021-05-13T11:31:55Z wasamasa: if you're gonna do it, do it right 2021-05-13T11:32:07Z amirouche: Pyodide tag line is very much dubious "Python with the scientific stack, compiled to WebAssembly." Who wants to run heavy computation in the browser?! 2021-05-13T11:32:25Z massn00b[m]: Well thanks for the explanation, one less thing to keep me awake at night 2021-05-13T11:32:38Z wasamasa: it would make more sense to run heavy computation on the server and offer a browser UI for it 2021-05-13T11:33:48Z amirouche: I tried to explain to them nobody needs that sort of things, and also that an interpreter written in C compiled to web assembly will not be performant but.. "it is easier to maintain" they say, and they forked cpython, and maintain their own patches / hacks. 2021-05-13T11:34:50Z amirouche: I forgot the name of that psychological bias, like they seek "short termm, low effort quick win" over durable, maintainable, performant software. 2021-05-13T11:34:55Z massn00b[m]: Uhh, sounds like a lot of trouble to render some menus and buttons in a web browser 2021-05-13T11:35:27Z amirouche: massn00b[m]: that is not even their goal! 2021-05-13T11:35:38Z amirouche: massn00b[m]: they want to run machine learning stuff =| 2021-05-13T11:35:46Z massn00b[m]: lmfao 2021-05-13T11:36:29Z amirouche: re durable software etc... I just prooved given the good knowledge, a couple of hours to do something faster. 2021-05-13T11:36:52Z amirouche: it possible I mean. 2021-05-13T11:38:01Z amirouche: and in theory, it supports tail call and call/cc. Now, I need to compile programmtically, since I have the target code in mind. 2021-05-13T11:38:32Z amirouche: What took me most of the time is to gather the knowledge both of CPS and wasm. 2021-05-13T11:40:20Z amirouche: wasm is another sort of "comlication". They invented an *abstract* *formalism* just to describe that single language, there is less 100 forms, but it took me more than 30 man days to figure the subset i need and *can* use. 2021-05-13T11:42:18Z dpk: why is with-syntax needed in the syntax-case system? what does it actually do differently from let-syntax? 2021-05-13T11:43:17Z amirouche: (there is exactly 93 different words according to: cat test.wat | grep -Eo '\w+' | sort | uniq | wc -l) 2021-05-13T11:43:20Z dpk: other than that let-syntax typically creates bindings for complete macro expanders rather than syntax objects, but aren’t both in the same namespace anyway? 2021-05-13T11:45:01Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-05-13T11:45:22Z amirouche: good question. I am wondering the same. 2021-05-13T11:48:53Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-13T11:49:25Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-13T11:53:41Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-13T12:02:29Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-13T12:23:35Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-05-13T12:30:31Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-13T12:31:47Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-13T12:35:00Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-05-13T12:59:41Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-13T13:00:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:00:58Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-13T13:00:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:14:51Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:20:34Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:22:07Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-13T13:22:30Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:25:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-13T13:25:31Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:26:08Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-13T13:26:31Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:27:21Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-13T13:28:02Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-13T13:28:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:28:38Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:28:38Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-13T13:28:38Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:45:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-13T13:45:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:47:08Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-13T13:47:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:51:26Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-13T13:52:37Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-13T13:53:31Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:07:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-13T14:07:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:09:43Z cer-0 joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:14:15Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-13T14:16:31Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-13T14:17:28Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-13T14:17:48Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:17:48Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-13T14:17:48Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:18:10Z cer-0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-13T14:28:53Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:33:33Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-13T14:35:17Z gwatt: dpk: I think that is the answer. Also, I think the identifiers introduced by let-syntax will be out-of-phase where you would be using with-syntax. 2021-05-13T14:36:24Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:36:27Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:38:46Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-13T14:39:11Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-13T14:40:33Z cer-0 joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:42:21Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-13T14:43:15Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-13T14:43:28Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-13T15:03:03Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-13T15:07:21Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-13T15:08:47Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-13T15:10:44Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-13T15:12:36Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-13T15:33:19Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-13T15:36:03Z gwatt: You can also use with-syntax to lift scheme data into a pattern variable, which let-syntax can't do. 2021-05-13T15:37:09Z gwatt: with-syntax ((pat1 expr1) (pat2 expr2) ...) is effectively the same as (syntax-case (list expr1 expr2 ...) 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Anywhere.) 2021-05-14T02:41:19Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T02:42:00Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-14T02:43:55Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-14T02:46:11Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-14T02:58:45Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-14T03:01:36Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T03:03:12Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T03:03:20Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T03:03:46Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T03:03:54Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-14T03:08:16Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-14T03:16:31Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T03:17:49Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T03:17:49Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T03:17:49Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T03:17:58Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T03:20:38Z richbridger quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-14T03:40:10Z cer-0 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-14T03:56:11Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-14T04:03:18Z massn00b[m]: lmfao the javascript spec's table of contents is the same length as r5rs 2021-05-14T04:05:23Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-14T04:07:48Z siraben: massn00b: haha 2021-05-14T04:07:56Z siraben: how long is the rest of the doc? 2021-05-14T04:07:59Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-14T04:16:32Z absurdum joined #scheme 2021-05-14T04:26:28Z massn00b[m]: A mere 860 pages (although some of that is bound to be notes/refs etc) 2021-05-14T04:32:59Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-14T04:39:32Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T04:44:04Z DGASAU` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.3.1)) 2021-05-14T04:44:40Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2021-05-14T04:57:39Z iv4nshm4k-v joined #scheme 2021-05-14T05:14:28Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-14T05:15:22Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-14T05:25:09Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T05:26:06Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-14T05:45:43Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T05:57:40Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-14T06:05:06Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T06:07:26Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T06:13:27Z GreaseMonkey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T06:13:35Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T06:15:25Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-14T06:15:46Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T06:19:11Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-14T06:25:38Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-14T06:28:22Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-14T06:29:01Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-14T06:31:03Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-05-14T06:39:16Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-14T06:39:16Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T06:39:16Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-14T06:47:32Z srji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-14T07:00:09Z wasamasa: yeah and most of it is procedural algorithms 2021-05-14T07:00:15Z wasamasa: which make no fucking sense 2021-05-14T07:01:52Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-14T07:03:13Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T07:04:07Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-14T07:05:26Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T07:06:09Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-14T07:23:28Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-14T07:25:45Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-14T08:01:45Z greaser|q joined #scheme 2021-05-14T08:08:59Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-05-14T08:09:09Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T08:13:10Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-14T08:15:57Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T08:32:42Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-14T08:37:33Z m1dow joined #scheme 2021-05-14T08:38:11Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-14T08:43:11Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T08:44:24Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T08:47:38Z midow joined #scheme 2021-05-14T08:51:15Z m1dow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-14T08:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T08:58:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-14T08:59:37Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T09:00:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-14T09:02:08Z srji joined #scheme 2021-05-14T09:18:47Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-14T09:22:01Z skapata quit (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old quit message with this one and help me take over the IRC world.) 2021-05-14T09:23:05Z amirouche: here is the wasm code I wrote about yesterday: https://git.sr.ht/~amirouche/xp-web-assembly/tree/master/item/test.wat#L126 2021-05-14T09:23:17Z amirouche: I am trying to do the translation programmatically. 2021-05-14T09:26:19Z xandkar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T10:07:19Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-14T10:07:39Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:07:39Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T10:07:39Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:15:09Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T10:16:13Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:22:32Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T10:23:47Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:23:47Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T10:23:47Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:25:28Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:40:12Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T10:40:37Z iv4nshm4k-v left #scheme 2021-05-14T10:41:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:41:28Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T10:41:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:50:49Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-14T10:51:08Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:51:08Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T10:51:08Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T10:56:41Z amirouche: why closure conversion reify a lambda environment, and pass a single extra argument to procedures? 2021-05-14T10:57:08Z amirouche: it seems to me it is possible to pass all free variables as regular arguments? 2021-05-14T10:57:37Z amirouche: ref: https://github.com/akeep/scheme-to-c/blob/main/c.ss#L2490 2021-05-14T10:58:50Z amirouche: oh I think it only works with cps. 2021-05-14T11:16:50Z lockywolf: Unrelated to scheme, but there are good programmers here. In TeX, how do I refer to a variable value at the second pass? 2021-05-14T11:17:19Z lockywolf: I.e. I want to number points as fractions. 1 out of X. 2021-05-14T11:37:27Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-14T11:39:40Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-14T11:41:43Z taylan joined #scheme 2021-05-14T11:43:41Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-14T11:43:41Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T11:43:41Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-14T11:44:27Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-14T11:49:06Z siraben: lockywolf: what do you mean second pass? 2021-05-14T11:50:04Z lockywolf: I mean that I need to write do basically what TeX does when resolving references and citations. 2021-05-14T11:50:49Z lockywolf: I want to put something like \refstepcounter in several places in my document. 2021-05-14T11:50:50Z dpk: lockywolf: see https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/115932/on-the-basics-of-writing-to-reading-from-auxiliary-files-aux-toc-etc and related google terms 2021-05-14T11:50:53Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/unFcuWR7FU 2021-05-14T11:51:11Z siraben: lockywolf: see also https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/296098/counting-items-in-itemize-or-enumerate-environments 2021-05-14T11:53:49Z lockywolf: Great! Seems like what I need. 2021-05-14T12:14:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-14T12:16:03Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-14T12:19:01Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-05-14T12:43:35Z xsperry quit 2021-05-14T12:45:34Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-14T12:52:24Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-05-14T13:04:57Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-05-14T13:16:08Z srji quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-14T13:16:20Z srji joined #scheme 2021-05-14T13:16:48Z srji quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-14T13:17:13Z srji joined #scheme 2021-05-14T13:20:33Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-14T13:21:32Z srji quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-14T13:21:55Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-14T13:26:52Z srji joined #scheme 2021-05-14T13:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T13:28:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-14T13:28:31Z dpk: "13:32:37 it would make more sense to run heavy computation on the server and offer a browser UI for it" — belated, but, why should i pay all that compute power and time when i can do it on other peoples' computers for free? 2021-05-14T13:28:49Z dpk: see also: JavaScript crypto miners. other peoples' electricity is free, it turns out 2021-05-14T13:40:34Z jobol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T13:40:35Z taylan: LOL, the question is whether you want to offer the best user experience or save resources I guess :) 2021-05-14T13:41:25Z taylan: (of course, if you expect to have so many users that the best server you can afford couldn't handle the load, then "best user experience" also means doing it in people's browsers with JS...) 2021-05-14T13:44:16Z absurdum quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-05-14T13:57:20Z flatwhatson quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T13:59:31Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T14:00:48Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T14:00:48Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T14:00:48Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T14:01:11Z flatwhatson joined #scheme 2021-05-14T14:08:25Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-14T14:11:20Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-14T14:12:27Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-14T14:18:29Z absurdum joined #scheme 2021-05-14T14:32:41Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-14T14:44:21Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-05-14T14:45:12Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-14T15:08:03Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-14T15:17:26Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-14T15:21:16Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-14T15:22:00Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-14T15:35:56Z epony quit (Quit: upgrades) 2021-05-14T15:45:47Z drakonis quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-14T15:48:10Z cer-0 joined #scheme 2021-05-14T15:48:11Z drakonis joined #scheme 2021-05-14T15:49:33Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T16:00:49Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-14T16:01:29Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-14T16:10:56Z mdhughes_ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T16:11:35Z epony joined #scheme 2021-05-14T16:12:22Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-14T16:13:55Z mdhughes quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-14T16:16:41Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T16:17:55Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T16:26:12Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-14T16:56:12Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-14T16:56:49Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-14T16:57:06Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-14T17:29:12Z amirouche: is it possible to pass free variables as regular arguments of a procedure? 2021-05-14T17:30:10Z Zipheir: amirouche: Isn't that a contradiction? 2021-05-14T17:30:12Z DGASAU: Zipheir: I have no idea, where you get your knowledge of BASIC of 80s. 2021-05-14T17:30:44Z Zipheir: amirouche: Oh, as a way of implementing "closures". 2021-05-14T17:30:48Z DGASAU: Zipheir: all BASIC versions of those times that I can recall have at most one(!) structured construct. 2021-05-14T17:31:09Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T17:31:30Z DGASAU: Zipheir: all the rest is at best "if x = 13 then go to 666". 2021-05-14T17:31:44Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-14T17:32:14Z amirouche: yes 2021-05-14T17:32:34Z Zipheir: DGASAU: I was under the impression that many dialects had at least looping and switch. 2021-05-14T17:32:35Z DGASAU: jcowan: C survives mostly because various old farts cannot learn anything else. 2021-05-14T17:32:51Z DGASAU: Zipheir: I'd like to see examples. 2021-05-14T17:33:23Z DGASAU: Zipheir: all systems based on K580 and K1801 that I have met had at most "for ... loop". 2021-05-14T17:33:25Z Zipheir: I'm just going off Wikipedia. The history seems very convoluted. 2021-05-14T17:35:04Z siraben: isn't it something like, ALGOL being call-by-name? 2021-05-14T17:35:17Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Well, I'd say you can put your money where your mouth is and just do the job of all those who cannot learn better. You do the job, you get the money, C dies; isn't it a net win? 2021-05-14T17:35:21Z jcowan: The original Basic at Dartmouth was far more sophisticated than the cut-down versions used in microcomputers. 2021-05-14T17:35:30Z siraben: in reply to amirouche's initial question 2021-05-14T17:35:37Z DGASAU: siraben: ALGOL-60 has rather peculiar calling convention. 2021-05-14T17:35:55Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-14T17:38:02Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-14T17:38:36Z DGASAU: Zipheir: According to Wikipedia, ZX Spectrum was introduced in 82-85. BASIC version on it and clones had only few good features in comparison to others: you couldn't omit operator, hence it was more verbose than "if x = 13 go 666", and it wasn't "letter + digits". 2021-05-14T17:39:58Z iv4nshm4k0v: FWIW, Sinclair BASIC benefitted considerably from keywords being one byte long. 2021-05-14T17:40:07Z DGASAU: That too. 2021-05-14T17:40:38Z DGASAU: But that's internal implementation. 2021-05-14T17:41:30Z DGASAU: Oh, right. 2021-05-14T17:41:53Z DGASAU: Well... You can add primitive support for subroutines to list of good features. 2021-05-14T17:43:03Z amirouche: siraben: dunno, I give up, I will just follow The Book and not try to invent something. 2021-05-14T17:43:16Z iv4nshm4k0v: Also, MS QuickBASIC appeared in 1985. Not sure about the first versions, but by 1990 it got a lot of structured programming support. 2021-05-14T17:43:49Z DGASAU: 90 being mid-80s is quite a stretch in my opinion. 2021-05-14T17:44:42Z amirouche: 1990 is when the 2K bug appeared? imarite? 2021-05-14T17:44:45Z amirouche: ;) 2021-05-14T17:45:08Z Zipheir: Yes, it seems like early microcomputer BASICs were extremely primitive. 2021-05-14T17:45:45Z DGASAU: Alright, I can recall one micro that, probably, had more advanced BASIC. 2021-05-14T17:45:53Z DGASAU: MSX 2021-05-14T17:46:15Z DGASAU: Yet I think it appeared closer to the end of 80s rather. 2021-05-14T17:47:13Z Zipheir: *But* to dismiss the whole language on the grounds of those implementations would be a bit like criticizing Scheme because of TinyScheme's lacking features. 2021-05-14T17:47:34Z iv4nshm4k0v: Per Wikipedia: Release date 10/21/1983 (MSX). 2021-05-14T17:49:03Z DGASAU: Zipheir: it is the opposite way: MSX BASIC was more of exception. 2021-05-14T17:50:59Z iv4nshm4k0v: … Though, ultimately, the claim that a user of a specific programming language will go mad due to such use is not falsifiable, and as such, is ultimately a matter of opinion, not research. 2021-05-14T17:51:26Z DGASAU sighs. 2021-05-14T17:51:34Z Zipheir: Clearly many, many people got into programming via BASIC. 2021-05-14T17:52:12Z DGASAU: Sure. 2021-05-14T17:52:21Z Zipheir: (The Python of the 80s?) 2021-05-14T17:52:58Z DGASAU: You cannot compare it to Python. 2021-05-14T17:53:14Z DGASAU: Python is PL designed for teaching structured programming. 2021-05-14T17:53:18Z iv4nshm4k0v: Like, show me the numbers, or it didn’t happen. 2021-05-14T17:53:19Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: Me too! 2021-05-14T17:53:52Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: So long as we’re concerned with ubiquity, I prefer comparing Basic to Javascript. 2021-05-14T17:54:11Z DGASAU: You cannot compare it to JavaScript either. 2021-05-14T17:54:46Z Zipheir: Oh, clearly people can compare any two languages. 2021-05-14T17:55:00Z iv4nshm4k0v: Back in the day, if you had computer at all, chances were that it ran Basic. Now, if you have computer at all, chances are that it runs Javascript. 2021-05-14T17:55:06Z DGASAU: Zipheir: well... It is meaningless. 2021-05-14T17:55:32Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: Probably so. 2021-05-14T17:55:44Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: today, if you have computer, it runs a number of languages besides javascript. 2021-05-14T17:56:04Z DGASAU: _Out_of_the_box._ 2021-05-14T17:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T17:58:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-14T17:58:47Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: following your logic, there was no plot against Paul Romanov, even though it is well-known how he died. 2021-05-14T17:59:06Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: If /I/ have a computer, it very much does not. 2021-05-14T17:59:50Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: may I ask, what kind of modern computer you have that is so outstanding? 2021-05-14T18:00:33Z Zipheir: For those of us who grew up with a vanilla Windows desktop, it was a major surprise to learn that it came with a full-fledged JavaScript interpreter. 2021-05-14T18:01:21Z DGASAU: Zipheir: it came with VBA as well. 2021-05-14T18:01:33Z Zipheir: "What? I thought programming was for professional computer users and needed lots of expensive software!" 2021-05-14T18:01:47Z Zipheir: (MS brain-damage, to be sure.) 2021-05-14T18:02:33Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: First of all, I don’t have computers that can be considered ‘modern.’ That said, my preference is on Socket AM2-based systems. 2021-05-14T18:02:37Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-14T18:05:12Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: essentially, unless you own something produced in this century and more powerfull than Palm or HPC, it runs either kind of unix or NT. 2021-05-14T18:05:42Z DGASAU: s/unless/if 2021-05-14T18:06:58Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-14T18:07:26Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Your claim to which I’ve responded was ‘_Out_of_the_box._’ Out of the box, my computers have HDDs that are filled with 0x00 octets (and rest assured, I /do/ check for that explicitly, before installing a system.) I’d say that’s neither Unix nor NT. 2021-05-14T18:08:57Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: you needed to try really hard to get machine in that state. 2021-05-14T18:09:08Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-14T18:09:36Z DGASAU: Normally, even in the best case it ran at least something like FreeDOS. 2021-05-14T18:10:15Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-14T18:10:19Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Huh? And why is that? 2021-05-14T18:10:28Z DGASAU: Why is what? 2021-05-14T18:10:33Z iv4nshm4k0v: … Obviously, once system is there, sure, my boxes run a lot of languages. But I understand that when I give my Prolog code to my Average Joe neighbor, he won’t know what to do with it. And when I give that same neighbor my Javascript code, I’m pretty sure that he’d be able to use it right away. 2021-05-14T18:11:22Z DGASAU: You must have really exceptional environment. 2021-05-14T18:11:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T18:11:48Z DGASAU: Most my neighbours are not IT professionals at all. 2021-05-14T18:12:45Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Why when I buy a computer it’s ought to have anything installed on it? Well, like I’ve said before: Socket AM2. Which kinda suggests that I’ve last bought a new computer sometime last decade. 2021-05-14T18:12:45Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: I’m not an IT professional myself, either. 2021-05-14T18:13:50Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-14T18:14:23Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: I don't know where you buy that, yet I doubt that you can do that normally. 2021-05-14T18:17:30Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Do I need to provide a copy of my receipt? I’ve pretty much walked into the shop, talked with the guy at the counter, he’s suggested a list of parts, I’ve agreed, paid for the parts, paid for the assembly, /did not pay/ for any OS whatsoever, and got my purchase some hours (perhaps a day?) later. That was 2008. March, I think. 2021-05-14T18:18:10Z DGASAU: Ah, so you had it custom-built... 2021-05-14T18:18:33Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Is that illegal or something? 2021-05-14T18:18:42Z DGASAU: Of course not. 2021-05-14T18:19:31Z DGASAU: But you paid extra for consultation and custom-built machine. 2021-05-14T18:20:51Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: I’m sure I wasn’t charged separately for consultation, and I think that back then the price difference between preassembled and custom-built was more than a few percents, if that. 2021-05-14T18:21:46Z DGASAU: Well... Alright, under some conditions you could do that 15 years ago. 2021-05-14T18:23:00Z Zipheir: I'm pretty sure you can go build your own machine today. 2021-05-14T18:23:14Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Nowadays I’d just buy the parts and assemble the box myself. Well, were it not for ME / PSP / etc.; I’m not currently interested in buying any /new/ hardware. 2021-05-14T18:23:15Z Zipheir: Unless Newegg suddenly went out of business... 2021-05-14T18:23:44Z DGASAU: Zipheir: it is _involved_ 2021-05-14T18:24:53Z Zipheir: It is? My partner (who's not involved in much CS or "IT") built her own desktop with minimal trouble. 2021-05-14T18:25:03Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Like, ‘any second year tech uni student should be able to do it’ involved, you mean? 2021-05-14T18:25:13Z Zipheir: It just takes time and mild eccentricity, I suppose. 2021-05-14T18:25:30Z DGASAU: You must have a lot of spare time to kill. :) 2021-05-14T18:25:46Z Zipheir: C'mon, we're talking an hour or so. 2021-05-14T18:26:25Z Zipheir: Barring things like defective hardware, driver problems, UEFI madness... 2021-05-14T18:26:26Z DGASAU: Zipheir: do you count picking up compatible parts? 2021-05-14T18:27:03Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: +1 on ‘an hour or so’. 2021-05-14T18:27:05Z Zipheir: DGASAU: That does take some time and a little thought. 2021-05-14T18:27:19Z DGASAU: Zipheir: do you count that "some time" in? 2021-05-14T18:27:35Z iv4nshm4k0v feels like he’s in 90s again 2021-05-14T18:28:16Z Zipheir: DGASAU: OK, maybe one hour to select parts, plus shipping time, plus one hour to build. Does that seem reasonable? 2021-05-14T18:28:55Z Zipheir: It's about accurate to my experiences, squiggly-equals all the way. 2021-05-14T18:29:19Z DGASAU: Zipheir: could you make a dry run of that process just to demonstrate? 2021-05-14T18:29:37Z Zipheir: Sure, I'll upload it to YouTube for your scrutiny. :D 2021-05-14T18:30:04Z DGASAU: I have not seen a lot of shops that provide software that checks compatibility of parts. 2021-05-14T18:30:12Z Zipheir: No, I'm kidding of course. Suffice it to say that there are probably many people in this channel who will confirm my estimate. 2021-05-14T18:30:30Z DGASAU: Pf! 2021-05-14T18:31:41Z Zipheir: Anecdotally, I will say that iv4nshm4k0v exaggerates. A middle-schooler could build a desktop. 2021-05-14T18:32:50Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-14T18:32:54Z DGASAU: I do not disagree on that. 2021-05-14T18:33:02Z iv4nshm4k0v: Two of my colleagues, I think, assembled their own computers recently. One has replaced a faulty mainboard in his notebook, too. No, he’s not IT professional; more like physics assistant professor. So I kinda wonder, do we actually live on the same planet in the same universe, or something? 2021-05-14T18:33:03Z DGASAU: My disagreement is in time estimate. 2021-05-14T18:33:58Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: Hardly /every/ middle-schooler, I’m afraid. 2021-05-14T18:34:36Z mdhughes_ is now known as mdhughes 2021-05-14T18:35:22Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-05-14T18:36:29Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: this is called "selection bias". 2021-05-14T18:37:14Z iv4nshm4k0v has recently met two uni students who were like ‘wordprocessing? can we do LaTeX instead?’ 2021-05-14T18:37:50Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: I wasn’t aware we’re doing statistics. 2021-05-14T18:37:54Z evdubs__ is now known as evdubs 2021-05-14T18:38:06Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-14T18:38:07Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: you're working in university, aren't you? 2021-05-14T18:38:14Z Zipheir: DGASAU: Invariably, the longest part of these projects is the OS and debugging unexpected driver issues. 2021-05-14T18:38:16Z mdhughes: DGASAU: What is your obsession with that line "if x = 13 then go to 666"? Even in TinyBASIC derivatives, you did structured programming locally; it mostly wasn't just a maze of gotos. 2021-05-14T18:38:35Z mdhughes: And by 1982-85, all the micros had structured BASIC. 2021-05-14T18:38:49Z DGASAU sighs. 2021-05-14T18:38:55Z DGASAU: mdhughes: ever heard of ZX Spectrum? 2021-05-14T18:39:16Z mdhughes: Yeah, as a matter of fact, I've been programming on it. 2021-05-14T18:39:41Z DGASAU: mdhughes: could you then refresh your memory and list BASIC operators that support structured programming? 2021-05-14T18:40:54Z mdhughes: Sure, the Speccy was the cheapest, most primitive micro on the market. You had to get an addon cart, tape or disk BASIC to get nice controls. 2021-05-14T18:41:26Z mdhughes: Note that NextBASIC *does* have REPEAT/WHILE, block IF, named PROC, and so on. 2021-05-14T18:41:34Z DGASAU: mdhughes: what does your "sure" mean? Could you list those operators? 2021-05-14T18:41:48Z mdhughes: I JUST TOLD YOU it's primitive. 2021-05-14T18:41:59Z mdhughes: In the built-in TinyBASIC it ships with. 2021-05-14T18:42:13Z mdhughes: But nobody else had that problem, and you could get a replacement for it. 2021-05-14T18:42:23Z DGASAU: You had to buy it separately. 2021-05-14T18:43:12Z DGASAU: ZX BASIC lacks REPEAT/WHILE. 2021-05-14T18:43:15Z mdhughes: Meanwhile I had a nice smooth learning curve from Atari BASIC to BASIC XL, Turbo BASIC XL, Action!, Pascal, C… 2021-05-14T18:44:02Z mdhughes: Each of those cost me money. They were 110% worth it. 2021-05-14T18:44:59Z DGASAU: Everyone I knew started with various systems based on 1801 or 580 series, then jumped to Pascal or C. 2021-05-14T18:45:28Z DGASAU: (From approximately same generation, not counting previous generation.) 2021-05-14T18:45:50Z mdhughes: Yeah, great, the Soviet experience with hand-carved computers was probably very difficult. Sorry. You chose your terrible economic system and got the computers you deserved from it. 2021-05-14T18:46:29Z DGASAU: If you went into applied math, you started with full-blown programming language. 2021-05-14T18:47:27Z DGASAU: Besides, you don't need to tell about how "terrible" our economic system was. :) 2021-05-14T18:47:36Z DGASAU: We got access to those systems for free. 2021-05-14T18:47:51Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: FWIW, I've graduated from university established by the Communist Party. I'm 110% sure that making a university here is a thought that'd never've crossed the mind of the Russian Imperial government. 2021-05-14T18:47:53Z mdhughes: Yeah, that's fine for University. I'm talking about what you give children and non-programmers. 2021-05-14T18:47:55Z DGASAU: mdhughes: Paid only for bus tickets. :) 2021-05-14T18:48:25Z Zipheir: I'd like it if we can keep this discussion to computers and programming. 2021-05-14T18:48:41Z DGASAU: mdhughes: children got access for price of bus/tram ticket. 2021-05-14T18:48:46Z mdhughes: So? I grew up in Capitalismstan, and paid $512 per semester for my state University, I think I had to pay an extra $30 for access to the Computer Services mainframes and Internet. 2021-05-14T18:49:22Z Zipheir: If you really have a reason to refer to politics, I'd like it if the tone stayed respectful. 2021-05-14T18:50:29Z mdhughes: My point was, the University isn't necessarily expensive here, either. It tells you nothing about the computers you can buy at home. 2021-05-14T18:50:43Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: not surprisingly, the best programming language available to children was totally our own design :) 2021-05-14T18:51:40Z DGASAU: (...Which again supports Dijkstra's opinion about fitness of BASIC to teaching.) 2021-05-14T18:52:24Z mdhughes: Except it doesn't, because the generations who grew up with BASIC turned into the programmers who built everything you use. 2021-05-14T18:52:47Z DGASAU: mdhughes: that's because you didn't have anything like that. 2021-05-14T18:52:58Z mdhughes: Like what? 2021-05-14T18:53:11Z DGASAU: mdhughes: I'm almost sure that a lot of our programmers who started back then can remember it. 2021-05-14T18:53:23Z DGASAU: Like Ershov's language. 2021-05-14T18:53:37Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: On my part, I have considerable respect towards libertarianism, free market, and socialism. Considerably less for capitalism (you know, along the lines of G. K. Chesterton's rhetoric; sure, it's 100 years old now, but still relevant IMO), but I believe I can be respectful towards those I disagree with. 2021-05-14T18:54:55Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: I'm glad to hear it. 2021-05-14T18:55:00Z mdhughes: We had every language here. LOGO is nice, it's a LISP in disguise. But it was *AWFUL* on micros, because it needs tons of memory & CPU. 2021-05-14T18:55:30Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: Feel free to kick me if I fail to live up to my claim, though. 2021-05-14T18:56:00Z mdhughes: BASIC was fast and tiny. Any language that succeeded had to be equally efficient. Action! was good for that, it's like Pascal+BASIC+Macro ASM. 2021-05-14T18:56:16Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: Oh, that wasn't my intended meaning at all. There's no "iron fist in the velvet glove" here. 2021-05-14T18:56:21Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T18:56:47Z Zipheir: I enjoy our occasional historical/philosophical tangents here, but I'm unhappy when they turn into flamewars. 2021-05-14T18:57:34Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: My point is that there's what I /aspire/ to be, and what I am in fact. In other words, I'm not 100% sure I won't end up participating in a flame war. Only 99%, perhaps. 2021-05-14T18:58:14Z Zipheir: Of course. 2021-05-14T19:00:19Z DGASAU: mdhughes: it is more important to have good languages than to have every language. 2021-05-14T19:01:11Z mdhughes: If you have every language, then you have good languages. And you can choose the one that's right for your tools, instead of the only one on the "shelf". 2021-05-14T19:01:58Z DGASAU: mdhughes: if you have "every language", you may have bad implementations of good languages or miss them completely. 2021-05-14T19:02:28Z DGASAU: mdhughes: somehow "RAPIRA" worked on "Agat" series, IIRC. 2021-05-14T19:03:06Z mdhughes: 40 years later, the lesson I learned is still: Find the right tool for the job. BASIC is: Trivial to learn, reasonably fast, teaches the basics (literally) of how a computer works. It's not so high-level that you can't rebuild it in ASM in a few weeks. 2021-05-14T19:03:59Z mdhughes: When I needed even more speed, I had a nice learning curve across languages to use C, and later in college Scheme. 2021-05-14T19:04:01Z DGASAU: That sounds more like "survivor fallacy". 2021-05-14T19:05:00Z DGASAU: RAPIRA was available on "Agat" or other K580-based systems. 2021-05-14T19:05:02Z mdhughes: So, I read a lot of early computing magazines for retrocomputing. https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22People%27s+Computer+Company%22 2021-05-14T19:05:51Z mdhughes: PCC was a coop that bought computers and gave the public access, before home computers. Then they transitioned into DDJ, making TinyBASIC available. 2021-05-14T19:06:23Z DGASAU sighs. 2021-05-14T19:06:39Z mdhughes: And so you can read them and see the logic they use to get there, and explicitly how to build it so it'll run in <4K RAM. 2021-05-14T19:07:24Z Zipheir: Computer magazines from the 70s and 80s are a joy. 2021-05-14T19:07:35Z mdhughes: Also, RAPIRA is like 15 years after TinyBASIC. 2021-05-14T19:08:46Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T19:08:58Z mdhughes: Zipheir: Right?! Did you see my blog post about Computer Lib/Dream Machines? https://mdhughes.tech/2021/05/08/computer-lib-dream-machines/ 2021-05-14T19:09:51Z mdhughes: Nelson's 3 languages he examines are BASIC, TRAC®, and APL. He was sure TRAC® was gonna be a big thing, even tho it was one guy with horrible licensing terms. 2021-05-14T19:10:01Z mdhughes: But it is kinda LISP-like. 2021-05-14T19:10:35Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T19:11:14Z DGASAU: mdhughes: if TinyBASIC appeared in late 60s, and everything was so nice, why the hell ZX BASIC was so primitive 20 years later? ;) 2021-05-14T19:11:57Z DGASAU: Any why there were micros with FORTH a decade later? 2021-05-14T19:12:20Z mdhughes: BASIC is 1964, but it was for mainframes with timesharing. TinyBASIC is 1975, because micros came out in 1974. And ZX had the memory constraints of a micro from 1974, in 1980. 2021-05-14T19:13:06Z mdhughes: FORTH developers actually travel backwards in time, so there's a very primitive future FORTH and it gets more powerful and expressive as they move backwards, but the computers suck more and more. 2021-05-14T19:13:36Z DGASAU: Seriously? 2021-05-14T19:13:51Z DGASAU: Micros of mid-70s had 16K RAM? 2021-05-14T19:15:05Z iv4nshm4k0v: The very idea of Sinclair computers was to make them as cheap as possible. ISTR that a micro in early 1980s cost about 500 GBP; ZXes sold for under 100 GBP. No wonder they were... constrained. 2021-05-14T19:16:20Z mdhughes: The 1974 Altair shipped with either "no memory" (256 bytes) or 4K, IIRC, and could easily be upgraded to 16K if you were rich. But the ZX shipped with 1K, 4K in the US, and had a wobbly 16K expansion block. 2021-05-14T19:17:11Z iv4nshm4k0v: That's ZX80/81, though; later ZX Spectrum came in 16K and 48K variants. 2021-05-14T19:17:12Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: machines from SM-60 series of mid-70s were running up to 8 user sessions within 48K RAM. 2021-05-14T19:17:15Z mdhughes: Do anything useful in 1K RAM using any language except ASM or BASIC. Try it! 2021-05-14T19:17:39Z mdhughes: Yeah, the Speccy was more competent but it's years later. 2021-05-14T19:17:56Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: 1980 vs. 1982? 2021-05-14T19:18:09Z DGASAU: mdhughes: PL/M worked just fine. 2021-05-14T19:18:43Z DGASAU: mdhughes: besides, you exaggerate complexity of LL(1) parser. 2021-05-14T19:19:47Z mdhughes: You know how the ZX worked? The one key you pressed for each BASIC symbol was stored as a token, and the interpreter just switches on that char. There's no parser. 2021-05-14T19:20:06Z mdhughes: 1K RAM. Seriously, try it. 2021-05-14T19:20:59Z DGASAU had full-blown FORTH implementation within 4K. 2021-05-14T19:21:32Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-14T19:22:23Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-14T19:22:30Z DGASAU: If I could push a lot of code into ROM, like on ZX Spectrum, I could implement LL(1) parser and have something sane with pre-tokenization feature a la ZX BASIC. 2021-05-14T19:22:56Z DGASAU: Again, you exaggerate complexity of LL(1) parser. 2021-05-14T19:23:13Z iv4nshm4k0v: Of Soviet designs, Электроника МК-85 comes to mind. It had about 1.25 KiB RAM (base model), I think. Though it still was a pocket micro built around a 16-bit CPU. Sadly gave no access to machine code, so Basic was all you had there. Nice machine overall. 2021-05-14T19:23:58Z DGASAU: That was pocket calculator. 2021-05-14T19:24:12Z DGASAU: Comparable to Android phone of today. 2021-05-14T19:24:13Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-14T19:24:24Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-14T19:25:47Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Comparable in what respect(s), specifically? Also, I'd hesitate to call anything with Basic onboard as 'calculator.' 2021-05-14T19:26:14Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: Android phones come with AWK interpreter on board, so what? 2021-05-14T19:26:43Z DGASAU: You won't call them "supercomputers" just because you can run classical AI programs a la famous ELISA. 2021-05-14T19:27:50Z iv4nshm4k0v: DGASAU: Android is an OS for computers that I place closer to the "general purpose" end of the spectrum. That you can make phone calls with a computer is of no consequence. 2021-05-14T19:30:09Z iv4nshm4k0v: There're of course specialized computers, but they run something along the lines of Contiki rather than Android / Replicant / non-GNU/Linux / etc. 2021-05-14T19:30:22Z mdhughes: I had a Tandy (Sharp) PC-3 in mid-late '80s, which ran BASIC. I used it as my PIM, smart calculator, could save programs on tape & run a printer. 2021-05-14T19:30:38Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: something like MK-34 already reaches complexity enough to fulfil needs of a number of users. 2021-05-14T19:30:39Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-14T19:31:16Z mdhughes: Zero chance of something like that being usable with any language except BASIC. 1-line, 20-char input LCD, for one thing. 2021-05-14T19:31:18Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-14T19:31:55Z DGASAU: mdhughes: BK-0010 2021-05-14T19:32:08Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T19:32:08Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T19:32:08Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-14T19:36:49Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-14T19:37:24Z cer-0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-14T19:39:10Z zzappie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T19:39:31Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-14T19:43:28Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: Электроника МК-85 had 1-line 12-char (or 60 by 7 addressable pixels) LCD. Though it ran Basic, too. 2021-05-14T19:44:26Z mdhughes: Looking at the screenshots, I think that's also a rebadged Sharp pocket computer! 2021-05-14T19:45:21Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: It borrowed the case wholesale (from some Casio device, though, not Sharp, I think), but it had its very own internals. 2021-05-14T19:45:46Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: what is more important, Электроника МС-0502 had Pascal, PL/M and few more saner programming languages. 2021-05-14T19:46:34Z DGASAU: iv4nshm4k0v: With some effort you could use all those on Электроника БК-0010. 2021-05-14T19:47:11Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: For one thing, it had a (substantially reworked, AIUI) DEC T-11 clone for its CPU. 2021-05-14T19:47:42Z iv4nshm4k0v: (Casio FX-700P per Wikipedia.) 2021-05-14T19:58:24Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T19:59:11Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-14T20:19:09Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T20:22:01Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-14T20:32:55Z silasfox quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-14T20:35:40Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T20:36:50Z codingquark quit (Quit: oh my) 2021-05-14T20:37:54Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-14T20:42:14Z codingquark joined #scheme 2021-05-14T20:56:07Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-14T20:59:27Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-14T21:09:31Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-14T21:10:44Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-14T21:29:59Z greaser|q quit (Changing host) 2021-05-14T21:29:59Z greaser|q joined #scheme 2021-05-14T21:30:02Z greaser|q is now known as GreaseMonkey 2021-05-14T21:34:25Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-14T21:54:54Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-05-14T21:57:09Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T21:57:20Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T21:58:01Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-14T21:58:24Z amirouche: I could not compile (lambda (x) (+ 40 2)) =| 2021-05-14T22:02:16Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-14T22:04:11Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T22:04:20Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T22:06:27Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-14T22:17:40Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-14T22:18:21Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-14T22:26:15Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T22:26:40Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-14T22:30:11Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-14T22:35:33Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T22:36:38Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T22:37:04Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-05-14T22:46:39Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-14T22:50:29Z absurdum quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-14T22:51:32Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-05-14T22:59:57Z taylan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-14T23:10:46Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-14T23:14:45Z mdhughes: rudybot, ((lambda (x) (+ 40 2)) 666) 2021-05-14T23:14:46Z rudybot: mdhughes: ; Value: 42 2021-05-14T23:16:59Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-14T23:17:35Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-14T23:20:55Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-14T23:28:20Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T23:36:55Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-14T23:37:27Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-14T23:39:22Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-14T23:39:36Z madage joined #scheme 2021-05-15T00:00:00Z grnman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T00:12:19Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-15T00:12:56Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-15T00:20:56Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-15T00:23:48Z grnman_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T00:28:35Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T00:28:35Z evdubs_ is now known as evdubs 2021-05-15T00:30:46Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T00:35:08Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T00:52:50Z nij joined #scheme 2021-05-15T00:53:18Z nij: Is there any scheme implementation in shell script? (>= R4RS) 2021-05-15T01:00:00Z catonano_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T01:03:19Z catonano quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T01:03:19Z catonano_ is now known as catonano 2021-05-15T01:41:09Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T01:43:26Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T01:49:27Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-05-15T01:49:40Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T01:52:04Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T01:55:49Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T02:00:00Z siraben: rudybot: ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) 2021-05-15T02:00:10Z rudybot: siraben: error: with-limit: out of time 2021-05-15T02:10:29Z evdubs__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-15T02:12:09Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T02:16:14Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-15T02:30:55Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T02:31:09Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-15T02:57:57Z xkapastel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-15T03:02:09Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T03:04:27Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-15T03:04:34Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T03:10:24Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T03:11:53Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-15T03:12:39Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-15T03:13:15Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-15T03:16:46Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-15T03:18:01Z absurdum joined #scheme 2021-05-15T03:18:06Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-15T03:26:06Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T03:29:01Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-15T03:47:46Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T03:49:06Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-05-15T03:52:59Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-15T03:53:36Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-15T04:03:49Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T04:08:44Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T04:21:37Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T04:52:35Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T04:53:34Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-15T05:03:32Z fgudin_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-15T05:23:19Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-15T05:23:56Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-15T05:29:09Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T05:31:07Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-15T06:03:32Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-15T06:05:00Z jobol quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-15T06:30:18Z brendyyn joined #scheme 2021-05-15T06:32:33Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-15T06:53:08Z woky quit (Quit: Nothing in this world is hopeless!) 2021-05-15T06:53:19Z woky joined #scheme 2021-05-15T06:55:39Z iv4nshm4k0v: ... FWIW, my take on the recent discussions is that for a sufficiently dedicated person, even to this day ZX Spectrum provides a better opportunity to learn programming than no computer at all. (Which is something that still needs to be dealt with in poor countries: not every person in the world at large has access to an Android-based device, mind.) 2021-05-15T06:57:55Z iv4nshm4k0v: On the other hand, I believe that in a non-marginal number of cases, the failure of a student to 'get' programming (as perhaps any other subject) in classroom is due to approaching the problem from a wrong end, which is something that's teachers /and/ tools (including programming languages) is responsible for. As such, the approach advocated by Ershov back in the day is not to be discarded. 2021-05-15T07:00:44Z iv4nshm4k0v: That said, I believe that the learning of tools available within classroom should be balanced against learning of those available without. Hence, if what students have at home or supposed to have at work is ZX Basic, Z80 assembly, or Javascript, that has to be studied in classroom too. 2021-05-15T07:25:58Z iv4nshm4k-v joined #scheme 2021-05-15T07:28:09Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-15T07:29:41Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-05-15T07:41:24Z srji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-15T07:54:31Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T07:55:48Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T07:55:48Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-15T07:55:48Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T07:57:09Z dpk: Scheme implementation in a shell script … *shudder* 2021-05-15T08:12:21Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T08:16:13Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-15T08:19:44Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-15T08:21:51Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-15T08:42:08Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-15T08:47:11Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T08:48:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T08:48:28Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-15T08:48:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T08:57:11Z iv4nshm4k-v left #scheme 2021-05-15T09:11:41Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-05-15T09:33:50Z amirouche: ;; (loop #) 2021-05-15T09:33:52Z amirouche: ;; (RETURN 42) 2021-05-15T09:35:36Z amirouche: That is I think I go the transformation correctly done. Now I need to translate that to wasm. 2021-05-15T09:39:50Z amirouche: And i did a closure transformation, I could not wrap my around passing free variables as arguments 2021-05-15T09:40:38Z amirouche: And I think it is not possible (without a lot of work). 2021-05-15T09:47:31Z taylan joined #scheme 2021-05-15T09:50:52Z dpk: hmm, am i correct in reading R7RS small as saying that #!fold-case also affects the reading of symbols delimited by pipes? 2021-05-15T09:51:45Z taylan: good question 2021-05-15T09:52:10Z dpk: i don't see anything explicit in section 2.1 exempting them 2021-05-15T09:53:29Z taylan: the definition says "identifiers and character names" and I'm not sure if |foo| is an "identifier"... 2021-05-15T09:53:30Z dpk: Chibi, at least, does not fold symbols in pipes when #!fold-case is on, which seems like the Right Thing 2021-05-15T09:53:49Z dpk: it is according to 7.1.1 2021-05-15T09:53:58Z taylan: "Identifiers that do not begin with a vertical line are termi-nated by a〈delimiter〉or by the end of the input. So aredot, numbers, characters, and booleans. Identifiers thatbegin with a vertical line are terminated by another verti-cal line." 2021-05-15T09:54:13Z dpk: ⟨identifier⟩ −→ ⟨initial⟩ ⟨subsequent⟩* | ⟨vertical line⟩ ⟨symbol element⟩* ⟨vertical line⟩ | ⟨peculiar identifier⟩ 2021-05-15T09:54:14Z dpk: yeah 2021-05-15T09:54:20Z taylan: yup, |foo| is an identifier, and as such affected by #!fold-case as per a straightforward reading of the standard... 2021-05-15T09:54:24Z taylan: not sure if this was intended 2021-05-15T09:55:05Z dpk: so it's either a bug/derogation from the spec in Chibi, or a error in the spec 2021-05-15T09:55:26Z taylan checks what Guile does 2021-05-15T09:56:49Z taylan: behaves like Chibi too 2021-05-15T09:57:11Z dpk: (or we're both missing the bit in the spec where it says symbols in || aren't affected by case folding) 2021-05-15T09:58:33Z taylan: jcowan: ping :) 2021-05-15T10:00:05Z taylan: nothing about it in the Errata either by the way: https://small.r7rs.org/wiki/R7RSSmallErrata/ 2021-05-15T10:00:26Z dpk: yeah, i'm looking at the version of the spec here with the errata corrected 2021-05-15T10:05:36Z taylan: dpk: oh, where can that be found? 2021-05-15T10:06:19Z dpk: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-spec/blob/errata/spec/r7rs.pdf 2021-05-15T10:08:02Z _noblegas joined #scheme 2021-05-15T10:08:12Z _noblegas: Hi 2021-05-15T10:08:51Z _noblegas: I bought a book "little schemer" and I read the tutorial of the "emacs", how can I proceed to start typing excercises from the book? 2021-05-15T10:09:14Z _noblegas: and I have read into in the book as well 2021-05-15T10:10:32Z _noblegas: i would love to use emacs for the exercises if possible (as I want to learn emacs plus my understanding is that emacs was written to write programs in Lisp and scheme is some sort of next step after the Lisp) 2021-05-15T10:11:03Z wasamasa: just pretend emacs is a normal text editor with some funny key combinations 2021-05-15T10:11:11Z _noblegas: ok got it 2021-05-15T10:11:14Z wasamasa: edit scheme in emacs, run it with a terminal emulator 2021-05-15T10:11:19Z _noblegas: I have ubuntu LTS 20.4 2021-05-15T10:11:51Z wasamasa: while you can open a scheme REPL from emacs and interact with it, it's not necessary to do that 2021-05-15T10:12:30Z _noblegas: wasamasa: do I understand correctly that `terminal emulator` is a part of emacs? 2021-05-15T10:12:33Z wasamasa: no 2021-05-15T10:12:54Z wasamasa: while emacs ships with what might be the slowest terminal emulator in existence, these have existed long before emacs 2021-05-15T10:13:30Z _noblegas: do you mean terminal in a sense like normal linux terminal? 2021-05-15T10:13:48Z _noblegas: like something where you type bash commands 2021-05-15T10:13:59Z wasamasa: yes, that something is called a terminal emulator 2021-05-15T10:14:10Z wasamasa: because few people use actual terminals 2021-05-15T10:14:31Z wasamasa: instead you use a program pretending to be a terminal, or terminal emulator in short 2021-05-15T10:14:46Z wasamasa: or do you have such a thing on your desk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100 2021-05-15T10:17:25Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-15T10:18:44Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-15T10:21:11Z aquijoule_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T10:22:22Z _noblegas: that's very interesting thank, I never actually thought about the name `terminal emulator` and where it came from. Now it seems clear 2021-05-15T10:22:50Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-05-15T10:23:27Z _noblegas: so, how can I run scheme with a terminal emulator (probably, similar to running bash commands), and isn't the REPL (since it's interactive) a better way to learn scheme? 2021-05-15T10:24:01Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T10:25:14Z wasamasa: depends on your scheme really 2021-05-15T10:25:24Z wasamasa: typically typing the right command launches the REPL 2021-05-15T10:25:30Z wasamasa: you can type or copy text into it 2021-05-15T10:26:00Z _noblegas: which scheme should I use? 2021-05-15T10:26:07Z wasamasa: only you can know that 2021-05-15T10:26:22Z wasamasa: people have surprisingly strong opinions on that question 2021-05-15T10:26:47Z _noblegas: by saying "sheme" we are talking about scheme implementations? 2021-05-15T10:26:56Z _noblegas: am I reading it correct 2021-05-15T10:27:01Z wasamasa: well, yeah 2021-05-15T10:27:23Z wasamasa: there's scheme, the programming language and a scheme, as in, a scheme implementation 2021-05-15T10:27:50Z wasamasa: do you have any idea what exactly you want to use scheme for? 2021-05-15T10:27:59Z dpk: fwiw, another benefit of the SRFI 43 convention for folds: it's easier/more natural in the case that kons returns multiple values, assuming they all get passed back in (realization inspired by reading the latter section of https://carloscarrasco.com/love-letter-to-s7-scheme/) 2021-05-15T10:28:08Z wasamasa: depending on your usecases and priorities some may be more appropriate than others 2021-05-15T10:28:17Z dpk: although since you can't have multiple knils, that's always going to be a bit tricky 2021-05-15T10:28:28Z wasamasa: there's no one size fits all 2021-05-15T10:28:38Z _noblegas: well, I wanted to better understand recursion, so someone suggested that the book "little schemer" is a good thing to understand it 2021-05-15T10:29:00Z wasamasa: what kind of programs do you want to write? 2021-05-15T10:29:20Z wasamasa: the book contents will work with pretty much anything providing a REPL 2021-05-15T10:29:50Z _noblegas: just for the book contents. Got it. Thanks 2021-05-15T10:30:27Z wasamasa: for example I wanted to experiment with C from a higher-level language and therefore picked CHICKEN 2021-05-15T10:31:08Z wasamasa: which is indeed nice for that usecase, though far from the only option 2021-05-15T10:31:29Z wasamasa: I know a bunch of people who want to support GNU and therefore chose guile 2021-05-15T10:32:02Z wasamasa: or who really need an IDE with a debugger and comprehensive documentation, so they've picked racket 2021-05-15T10:33:02Z _noblegas: I was thinking between JScheme since I use java mostly for my work or GNU/MIT scheme since it's GNU, so kind of a standard 2021-05-15T10:33:29Z _noblegas: but really I need something which is convenient and easy to install/work with on ubuntu 2021-05-15T10:33:48Z wasamasa: the most advanced java scheme is kawa 2021-05-15T10:34:01Z wasamasa: I've used it for a MIDI project, it was very nice for that purpose 2021-05-15T10:34:26Z wasamasa: yeah, GNU has a bunch of schemes under its umbrella 2021-05-15T10:34:40Z wasamasa: mit-scheme has been used for SICP since that course also originates from MIT university 2021-05-15T10:38:02Z wasamasa: https://pkgs.org/search/?q=scheme&on=summary 2021-05-15T10:39:08Z amirouche: neat link 2021-05-15T10:39:36Z wasamasa: I'm kind of surprised they still have ikarus, scm, scheme48, scheme9, sigscheme, sisc and stalin in the repos 2021-05-15T10:39:39Z wasamasa: but no kawa 2021-05-15T10:40:08Z wasamasa: it's a super useful website for looking up packages for fedora and such 2021-05-15T10:40:27Z amirouche: yeah mee too 2021-05-15T10:40:34Z wasamasa: oh and elk 2021-05-15T10:41:58Z amirouche: I am also suprised ikarus appears. I do not know the other scheme.. 2021-05-15T10:44:00Z wasamasa: last sisc release has been 2007 :D 2021-05-15T10:44:19Z _noblegas: it looks like Hy is the most recent thing, so probably the easiest to use/set up and with good documentation 2021-05-15T10:44:25Z wasamasa: hy isn't a scheme 2021-05-15T10:44:29Z _noblegas: oh 2021-05-15T10:44:47Z wasamasa: hy is something vaguely resembling clojure, but failing to actually be like it 2021-05-15T10:45:17Z wasamasa: basically python with parentheses 2021-05-15T10:45:29Z amirouche: yes 2021-05-15T10:45:32Z _noblegas: scheme is a lisp, but lisp is not scheme 2021-05-15T10:45:37Z wasamasa: well 2021-05-15T10:45:42Z wasamasa: it depends who you ask 2021-05-15T10:45:46Z amirouche: _noblegas: you want to learn scheme go with guile or mit/scheme 2021-05-15T10:45:52Z _noblegas: yes thank you 2021-05-15T10:45:57Z amirouche: or even racket, it has an advanced ide. 2021-05-15T10:46:00Z wasamasa: I consider lisp to be a family of programming languages 2021-05-15T10:46:28Z wasamasa: where scheme and common lisp are the two surviving major dialects 2021-05-15T10:46:49Z wasamasa: emacs lisp is more popular than them though, lol 2021-05-15T10:46:53Z amirouche: scheme is also sort-of a family of langage. Feature set in scheme implementations vary widely, but there is common core. 2021-05-15T10:47:07Z wasamasa: and clojure is the one you can use for work 2021-05-15T10:47:16Z amirouche: unlike CL and Scheme that have only s-exp as common. 2021-05-15T10:47:26Z wasamasa: if you ask the common lisp people though, they believe that lisp is common lisp and its ancestors 2021-05-15T10:47:33Z amirouche: +1 wasamasa 2021-05-15T10:47:46Z _noblegas: closure is not scheme? 2021-05-15T10:47:51Z wasamasa: clojure is its own thing 2021-05-15T10:48:03Z amirouche: _noblegas: clojure looks like a scheme, but... JVM.. if you really want to xp scheme use Kawa. 2021-05-15T10:48:09Z wasamasa: designed by a common lisp programmer who wanted to do more functional programming 2021-05-15T10:49:12Z skapata quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-15T10:50:09Z _noblegas: ok good, i think I have good initial info to look further. Thanks for your help 2021-05-15T10:50:23Z wasamasa: there are other smaller lisp implementations that do their own thing 2021-05-15T10:50:33Z wasamasa: it's a big zoo of parentheses basically 2021-05-15T10:50:48Z amirouche: yup 2021-05-15T10:51:09Z wasamasa: CL being, the old guard with a focus on compatibility/real-world use 2021-05-15T10:51:27Z wasamasa: scheme being an offshoot with strong roots in academia and focus on minimalism 2021-05-15T10:53:20Z amirouche: They are people using scheme in the industry, they are secret endaveors, but they are. Also, I know at least three that rely on a privateer scheme implementation. 2021-05-15T10:53:37Z amirouche: I know another one using at least two different open-source implementation in their system. 2021-05-15T10:54:21Z wasamasa: sure, you can do that 2021-05-15T10:54:31Z wasamasa: if you know what you're doing and not afraid of getting your hands dirty 2021-05-15T10:54:55Z wasamasa: forego portability, embrace dirty hacks, fully buy into your implementation 2021-05-15T10:55:58Z dpk: privateer Scheme implementation: arrrrrrrr 2021-05-15T10:56:21Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T10:56:36Z amirouche: The most famous is cisco chez's fork. 2021-05-15T10:57:02Z amirouche: Another one started as oss, then was closed. And yet another one lambda scheme started privateer, but some is open-source. 2021-05-15T10:57:39Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T10:57:39Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-15T10:57:39Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T10:59:48Z _noblegas: chicken scheme looks quite funny 2021-05-15T11:00:01Z _noblegas: funny=cool+nice interface for repl 2021-05-15T11:00:53Z wasamasa: the compiler is way better than the REPL 2021-05-15T11:01:36Z wasamasa: I only use the REPL for experimentation and use a batch compiler workflow with it 2021-05-15T11:07:03Z amirouche: chicken as loads of packages, but I am not familiar with daily use. 2021-05-15T11:07:19Z _noblegas: guile is perfect thanks 2021-05-15T11:07:28Z _noblegas: off to write some scheme code 2021-05-15T11:07:33Z _noblegas: have good day 2021-05-15T11:09:42Z amirouche: ty! welcome to Scheme land! 2021-05-15T11:33:39Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-15T11:34:09Z amirouche: freenode related notice: https://web.archive.org/web/20210515030713/https://p.haavard.me/407 2021-05-15T11:34:16Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-15T11:34:43Z amirouche: maybe it is better or a good thing to start a #scheme channel on the new network ? 2021-05-15T11:35:56Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: It certainly wouldn't harm to have a contingency plan. Having a channel on both networks would help, though I myself would rather welcome those wishing to come at EFnet's #coders. 2021-05-15T11:36:02Z wasamasa: maybe it is better to learn about the context 2021-05-15T11:36:31Z wasamasa: https://litter.catbox.moe/2mfpli.txt 2021-05-15T11:36:50Z wasamasa: the fight about freenode governance has been going on for years 2021-05-15T11:37:07Z wasamasa: this is just the latest iteration and sharing leaked pastebins isn't doing any good 2021-05-15T11:37:23Z wasamasa: why would you think most of them are deleted by now 2021-05-15T11:37:35Z amirouche: legal treats? 2021-05-15T11:38:36Z brendyyn quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-05-15T11:39:00Z wasamasa: well, read the above and reconsider what you wrote 2021-05-15T11:39:16Z wasamasa: if you want to make a backup channel, OFTC has existed for plenty of time 2021-05-15T11:39:28Z wasamasa: it's used by projects who are wary of freenode's status 2021-05-15T11:39:40Z amirouche: yeah, I am looking for another network just in case. 2021-05-15T11:39:43Z taylan: I don't see how a text like that would be legally actionable. it's strange that all those links are 404 and I don't understand why they'd be pastebins in the first place... 2021-05-15T11:40:24Z iv4nshm4k0v: ... FWIW, the whole situation reminds me of the gPXE / iPXE case... 2021-05-15T11:40:29Z wasamasa: they've been deleted because of misinterpretation by people thinking that freenode staffes have resigned (they haven't) 2021-05-15T11:40:59Z wasamasa: but I'm repeating what has been elaborated in the link above 2021-05-15T11:42:11Z dbohdan: I couldn't find a proper Scheme implemented in POSIX shell or Bash. https://github.com/darius/awklisp is Scheme-like and written in Awk. Make a Lisp has a Bash version (https://github.com/kanaka/mal/tree/master/impls/bash). 2021-05-15T11:42:57Z amirouche: POSIX shell as target? seems complicated with my limited sh knowledge. 2021-05-15T11:43:06Z taylan: wasamasa: oh I hadn't seen your link, thanks 2021-05-15T11:43:24Z amirouche: (my limited sh knowledge or limited sh. period.) 2021-05-15T11:43:28Z Noisytoot: wasamasa, There's also Hackint, which supports SASL, unlike OFTC, and doesn't require reCAPTCHA for registration (although you can ask an operator to manually verify it) 2021-05-15T11:43:49Z Noisytoot: and libera.chat, which is the official (by freenode staff) replacement for freenode if andrew takes it over 2021-05-15T11:43:50Z wasamasa: they require setting up their self-signed cert for TLS connections 2021-05-15T11:43:59Z wasamasa: which pretty much rules it out for all non-hacker types 2021-05-15T11:44:57Z wasamasa: libera.chat isn't ready and I can't see it getting anywhere near as large as OFTC is now 2021-05-15T11:48:03Z Noisytoot: wasamasa, They now use Let's Encrypt 2021-05-15T11:48:14Z wasamasa: lol 2021-05-15T11:53:31Z taylan: wasamasa: what's wrong with that? 2021-05-15T11:54:08Z wasamasa: it just makes me wonder what the point of their self-signed cert experiment was 2021-05-15T11:54:29Z wasamasa: why would you make someone waste an hour on figuring out how to add that to your system cert store 2021-05-15T11:54:30Z taylan: well that's a good question. did they not know about LE? :P 2021-05-15T11:55:01Z taylan: hot take: we should all use XMPP instead 2021-05-15T11:55:07Z iv4nshm4k0v: wasamasa: Didn't figure how to configure certbot from the get-go, 'haps? 2021-05-15T11:55:19Z wasamasa: https://emacsninja.com/posts/installing-custom-certificates-on-arch-linux.html 2021-05-15T11:55:23Z silasfox` joined #scheme 2021-05-15T11:55:31Z wasamasa: I wrote this blog post a few months before that transition 2021-05-15T11:55:47Z taylan: it's really not that difficult to set up LetsEncrypt. maybe it was more difficult in the past though, I don't know. 2021-05-15T11:55:58Z iv4nshm4k0v: taylan: The IRC client I use is under 300 LoC. Could you please point me to an XMPP UA that's no more that ten times that complex? 2021-05-15T11:56:32Z taylan: iv4nshm4k0v: a compelling argument! maybe that's why there's not so many good XMPP clients. 2021-05-15T11:56:52Z taylan: iv4nshm4k0v: out of curiosity, which client is that? 2021-05-15T11:56:53Z wasamasa: don't you know the less LOC, the better the client 2021-05-15T11:56:55Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-15T11:57:20Z wasamasa: (import irc-client) 2021-05-15T11:57:21Z taylan: wasamasa: well I do consider less complexity in software a good thing... or at least to have less complex options available. 2021-05-15T11:57:25Z iv4nshm4k0v: taylan: Likely one of the reasons, IMO. http://sources.debian.org/src/sic/1.1-5/sic.c/ . Granted, I run it under rlwrap under screen, but still. 2021-05-15T11:58:18Z wasamasa: I guess sic is incompatible with hackint 2021-05-15T11:58:24Z taylan: iv4nshm4k0v: cool! I figure it could be even shorter in another language :P 2021-05-15T11:58:48Z taylan likes it how nobody complains that we've been massively off-topic for a while 2021-05-15T11:59:04Z iv4nshm4k0v: taylan: Re. 'shorter in another language', I like your line of thought. 2021-05-15T11:59:32Z taylan: I wrote an IRC bot in POSIX sh once in my early days, that was fun 2021-05-15T11:59:52Z taylan tries to find it 2021-05-15T11:59:52Z iv4nshm4k0v: wasamasa: It may require socat in-between itself and the server; or is there some other incompatibility aside of (I guess) TLS? 2021-05-15T12:00:27Z iv4nshm4k0v: taylan: irc://irc.sdf.org/ uses BASHy, which is a bot written in Bash. 2021-05-15T12:01:20Z taylan: hmm I don't have a GitHub repo for my sh IRC bot but I did find my playlist manager in sh :P https://github.com/TaylanUB/shellplayer 2021-05-15T12:01:36Z taylan: ah, nostalgia. funny how I started to learn programming via sh. 2021-05-15T12:02:16Z iv4nshm4k0v at one point have used sic to connect to a TLS-enabled server running on an .onion address 2021-05-15T12:02:37Z wasamasa: iv4nshm4k0v: that might actually work, I only see difficulties in HTTP stuff requiring more exotic TLS features 2021-05-15T12:03:59Z iv4nshm4k0v: wasamasa: As in HTTP/2? Or HSTS? Though indeed, HTTP would likely require a proper proxy... 2021-05-15T12:04:37Z wasamasa: ALPN 2021-05-15T12:04:38Z iv4nshm4k0v: (Ah, there're also the I-never-use-them features, like Websockets...) 2021-05-15T12:05:09Z wasamasa: and the feature to tell the client what hostname you connect to 2021-05-15T12:05:28Z wasamasa: because somehow that information cannot be just reused from the hostname argument, lol 2021-05-15T12:05:31Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-15T12:05:42Z wasamasa: ah, SNI 2021-05-15T12:06:49Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T12:06:49Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-15T12:06:49Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T12:07:08Z iv4nshm4k0v: wasamasa: FWIW, Wikipedia doesn't mention any other uses for ALPN beside HTTP/2. 2021-05-15T12:07:24Z wasamasa: I've had to use it for a particularly wonky gopher server 2021-05-15T12:07:29Z wasamasa: along with SNI 2021-05-15T12:07:36Z wasamasa: fucking webshits 2021-05-15T12:07:53Z wasamasa: thinking they can just use all the features instead of stopping for a minute and thinking about the why 2021-05-15T12:08:34Z wasamasa: that gopher server did implement the TSL variant in a new incompatible way 2021-05-15T12:09:31Z wasamasa: admirably to use ALPN for all non-standard TLS services to be explicit about them, but still 2021-05-15T12:10:22Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-15T12:14:27Z dbohdan: iv4nshm4k0v: https://github.com/tonyg/racket-xmpp/ is around 500 lines, I think 2021-05-15T12:15:37Z dpk: re HTTP/2, there was a proposal while it was in development to make the framing layer a separate spec from the HTTP protocol, so it could theoretically be used by others applications 2021-05-15T12:16:02Z dpk: i’m disappointed that didn’t happen because i had the best name for it 2021-05-15T12:16:24Z dpk: Protocol-Independent Framing Layer, acronym pronounced ‘piffle’ 2021-05-15T12:19:08Z casaca quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-15T12:30:10Z amirouche: I am not the only software name nerd ^^ 2021-05-15T12:32:07Z amirouche: part of the motivation to write software, is to give them names. 2021-05-15T12:34:34Z silasfox` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T12:34:41Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T12:35:54Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T12:35:55Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-15T12:35:55Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T12:37:31Z pbaille_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T12:40:13Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T12:43:59Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-15T12:44:36Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-15T12:47:52Z rdd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T13:00:21Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T13:00:56Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-15T13:01:10Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-05-15T13:01:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:01:37Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-15T13:01:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:04:25Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:05:02Z TCZ quit (Quit: ...) 2021-05-15T13:11:25Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:18:31Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T13:19:11Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T13:19:49Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:19:49Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-15T13:19:49Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:28:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T13:28:20Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:29:11Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T13:33:47Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:34:32Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T13:34:46Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:43:04Z _noblegas: hi, I have a question, how can I call a function such as `car` in scheme? 2021-05-15T13:43:22Z _noblegas: for example, I want to call `car of l` where `l` is a list 2021-05-15T13:43:44Z _noblegas: what do I need to type to do it? 2021-05-15T13:45:31Z wasamasa: you write a list 2021-05-15T13:45:56Z _noblegas: `(car of l)` ? 2021-05-15T13:46:04Z wasamasa: with the procedure name being the head of the list and the arguments being the tail of the list 2021-05-15T13:46:08Z wasamasa: (car l) 2021-05-15T13:46:09Z _noblegas: sorry `'(car of l)` 2021-05-15T13:46:13Z _noblegas: ah 2021-05-15T13:46:14Z _noblegas: got it 2021-05-15T13:47:13Z _noblegas: if I want `l to be a varaible, how would I do that? 2021-05-15T13:47:19Z _noblegas: `l` 2021-05-15T13:47:35Z iv4nshm4k0v: _noblegas: In (car l), both car and l can be variables. 2021-05-15T13:48:16Z dpk: _noblegas: i suggest working through the first chapter of SICP before moving onto The Little Schemer, it explains this systematically 2021-05-15T13:48:27Z iv4nshm4k0v: rudybot: (let ((f car) (l '(1 2 3)) (f l)) 2021-05-15T13:48:28Z _noblegas: dpk: got it thanks 2021-05-15T13:48:32Z rudybot: iv4nshm4k0v: (define null #|unassigned|#) (define (map f l) (let loop ((l l)) (if (pair? l) (cons (f (car l)) (map f (cdr l))) null))) (bind-condition-handler (list condition-type:unassigned-variable) (lambda (condition) condition (use-value '())) (lambda () (map + '(1 2 3)))) 2021-05-15T13:48:42Z dpk: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-9.html#%_chap_1 2021-05-15T13:48:46Z _noblegas: indeedthank you 2021-05-15T13:48:56Z iv4nshm4k0v ? 2021-05-15T13:54:25Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-15T13:56:21Z amirouche: There is so much opportunity to spend a lifetime with code. 2021-05-15T13:56:23Z amirouche: I hope I do. 2021-05-15T13:57:32Z amirouche: rudybot: a lifetime of code? 2021-05-15T13:57:51Z rudybot: amirouche: I'd like a graph of what programmers code in over their programming lifetime. 2021-05-15T13:58:35Z amirouche: rudybot: that is called github among other things ^^ 2021-05-15T13:58:55Z rudybot: amirouche: there is an R6 library called 'octorine' that includes monads among other things, though I haven't used it 2021-05-15T14:00:32Z fgudin_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T14:12:48Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T14:16:06Z casaca joined #scheme 2021-05-15T14:16:15Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-15T14:23:49Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-15T14:33:40Z silasfox quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.2)) 2021-05-15T14:34:28Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-15T14:43:53Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-15T14:49:13Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-15T14:55:34Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-15T14:55:46Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T15:00:10Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-15T15:01:45Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T15:18:58Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-15T15:25:00Z zzappie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T15:25:20Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-15T15:31:15Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T15:31:52Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-15T15:33:48Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-15T15:40:11Z bjoli joined #scheme 2021-05-15T15:41:48Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-05-15T15:44:11Z manumanumanu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T15:45:43Z bjoli is now known as manumanumanu 2021-05-15T15:53:06Z TCZ quit (Quit: ...) 2021-05-15T16:06:10Z amirouche: people from europe working on standards (!) might be interest by this project https://www.standict.eu/standicteu-2023-3rd-open-call 2021-05-15T16:29:45Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-15T16:39:19Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-15T16:39:58Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-15T16:43:20Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-15T16:58:19Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T16:58:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T16:58:37Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-15T16:58:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T17:01:24Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-05-15T17:01:24Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-15T17:01:55Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-15T17:06:53Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-15T17:09:22Z Zipheir: rudybot: (let ((f car) (l '(1 2 3))) (f l)) 2021-05-15T17:09:28Z rudybot: Zipheir: your scheme sandbox is ready 2021-05-15T17:09:28Z rudybot: Zipheir: ; Value: 1 2021-05-15T17:09:56Z Zipheir: Ah, the original had a missing paren. 2021-05-15T17:10:39Z iv4nshm4k0v: Indeed. 2021-05-15T17:37:50Z pbaille_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-05-15T17:38:11Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-15T17:43:55Z iv4nshm4k0v: dbohdan: Cursory glancing at racket-xmpp I find it promising. 2021-05-15T17:45:01Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-15T17:45:07Z _noblegas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-15T17:45:20Z dbohdan: I haven't actually used it 2021-05-15T17:46:19Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T17:46:19Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-15T17:46:19Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-15T17:47:23Z iv4nshm4k0v: dbohdan: Well, to be fair, neither did I. I can’t say I’m enough interested in Racket to actually run it, but it may give me some insight into XMPP itself. 2021-05-15T17:50:09Z iv4nshm4k0v used his English too much today and strained it 2021-05-15T17:54:21Z rj joined #scheme 2021-05-15T17:58:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T17:58:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-15T18:00:27Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-15T18:22:59Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T18:23:13Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-15T18:35:37Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Last monday, I was looking for a word in french to say "sloppy programming" 2021-05-15T20:25:12Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T20:34:45Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-15T20:37:30Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-15T20:55:57Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T20:56:09Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-15T20:59:00Z dTal: irréfléchi programmez? 2021-05-15T20:59:25Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-15T21:00:24Z xcmw joined #scheme 2021-05-15T21:04:13Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-15T21:06:15Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-15T21:09:09Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T21:18:37Z absurdum joined #scheme 2021-05-15T21:20:23Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-15T21:23:39Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-15T21:25:28Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-15T21:29:50Z groovy: can someone give some insight on this problem part b) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/JSzk8Ltk/ex115 2021-05-15T21:30:04Z groovy: I'm lost at what they mean by as a function of a 2021-05-15T21:32:41Z groovy: i can see that the space/steps increase by 1 for every power of 3 2021-05-15T21:33:19Z groovy: like 3,9,27,81 is 4,5,6,7 for # of times p is called 2021-05-15T21:34:51Z Zipheir: groovy: It means to express the space and time complexity of (sine a) in terms of a. 2021-05-15T21:36:44Z Zipheir: E.g. you can express the same for geting the kth element of a list by saying Time((list-ref lis k)) = k 2021-05-15T21:37:07Z Zipheir: (and Space((list-ref lis k)) = 1) 2021-05-15T21:40:13Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-15T21:45:20Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-15T21:45:55Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-15T21:45:58Z groovy: i guess I'm retarded and it's actually just log base 3 of a + 1 2021-05-15T21:46:27Z groovy: 0 2021-05-15T21:47:04Z groovy: er I mean 3 2021-05-15T21:49:53Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-15T21:51:11Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-15T21:53:42Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-15T21:57:54Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T22:04:49Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-05-15T22:05:19Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-05-15T22:05:28Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-15T22:17:13Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-15T22:29:51Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-15T22:33:06Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-15T22:33:43Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-15T22:49:23Z gmaggior joined #scheme 2021-05-15T22:50:57Z silasfox quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-15T22:51:20Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-15T23:01:14Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T23:04:51Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-15T23:10:49Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-15T23:21:39Z gmaggior quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-15T23:31:03Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-15T23:37:03Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-15T23:38:23Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-15T23:41:32Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-15T23:43:11Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-15T23:53:12Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-15T23:55:58Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-15T23:59:48Z irc_user quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-16T00:00:11Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-16T00:08:35Z taylan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-16T00:19:21Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-16T00:20:51Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-16T00:34:31Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-16T00:36:32Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-16T00:41:41Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-05-16T00:42:01Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-16T00:46:05Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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with chicken ? 2021-05-16T11:48:06Z amirouche: I was under the impression that windows was dead with the linux subsystem. 2021-05-16T11:48:28Z wasamasa: nonsense 2021-05-16T11:48:41Z wasamasa: can't build .exe files with that 2021-05-16T11:49:31Z wasamasa: so I've done a full CI run using mingw64-msys2 2021-05-16T11:49:43Z wasamasa: and now I've realized cygwin is also a thing and am retesting my patches with that 2021-05-16T11:56:07Z gmaggior joined #scheme 2021-05-16T11:59:58Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-16T12:02:28Z flatwhatson: you can build .exe files from wsl by cross-compiling (ie. mingw64 toolchain on linux running in wsl) 2021-05-16T12:03:02Z flatwhatson: though if you have a working cross-compilation setup, why bother with windows at all? 2021-05-16T12:06:40Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-16T12:07:06Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-16T12:07:37Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-16T12:08:01Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-16T12:12:39Z wasamasa: exactly 2021-05-16T12:12:52Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-16T12:12:57Z wasamasa: do the cross-compilation from linux and test with wine 2021-05-16T12:13:10Z wasamasa: don't do any development on windows, just testing 2021-05-16T12:13:41Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-16T12:14:01Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-16T12:21:44Z pbaille quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-16T12:22:20Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-16T12:26:33Z Noisytoot: Why do you need windows support at all? 2021-05-16T12:26:48Z wasamasa: it exists 2021-05-16T12:26:52Z wasamasa: it's poorly tested 2021-05-16T12:27:05Z wasamasa: I'm working on exploring how good it is and fixing bugs 2021-05-16T12:30:19Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-16T12:31:40Z wasamasa: sure, one could pretend to be an ostrich, stick their head in the ground for ten more years and hope windows is a footnote of history by then 2021-05-16T12:32:24Z wasamasa: this has been tried in the early 2000s with little success 2021-05-16T12:38:14Z Noisytoot: Does it have Hurd support? 2021-05-16T12:38:45Z Noisytoot: Guile runs on Hurd 2021-05-16T12:40:25Z wasamasa: without fork? 2021-05-16T12:44:17Z Noisytoot: The Guix GNU/Hurd QEMU image includes Guile 2021-05-16T13:02:31Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-16T13:07:06Z amirouche: how is that related to hurd? 2021-05-16T13:08:00Z brendyyn joined #scheme 2021-05-16T13:09:47Z amirouche: windows is not a footnote, but with things like raspberry pi it becomes possible to ship software as a raspberry pi. 2021-05-16T13:10:30Z wasamasa: I've been reading about doing away with fork 2021-05-16T13:10:31Z amirouche: with enough work, the raspberry pi can boot into your program making the underlying os "invisible" 2021-05-16T13:10:40Z wasamasa: and have read that not just windows has issues emulating it, but hurd as well 2021-05-16T13:10:53Z amirouche: what is fork? 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timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-17T06:20:38Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-05-17T06:21:53Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-17T06:23:32Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-17T06:29:42Z abralek quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-17T06:31:45Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-17T06:32:38Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-17T06:33:03Z gzj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-17T06:36:53Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-17T06:47:44Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-17T06:53:22Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T07:03:11Z wasamasa: I made a bunch of scrapers 2021-05-17T07:03:20Z wasamasa: it's not exactly magic 2021-05-17T07:03:39Z wasamasa: you need a scheme with TLS support, a HTTP client 2021-05-17T07:03:52Z wasamasa: or just subprocess control to let curl do the work :P 2021-05-17T07:23:25Z abralek joined #scheme 2021-05-17T07:23:50Z amirouche: I always forget about subprocess+curl 2021-05-17T07:26:17Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-17T07:26:26Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 268 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something at a meeting over zoom 2021-05-17T08:25:49Z amirouche: https://github.com/WebAssembly/meetings/blob/master/stack/2021/sg-5-17.md 2021-05-17T08:32:43Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-17T08:32:54Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-17T08:33:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T08:33:12Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-17T08:33:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T08:45:09Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-17T09:00:05Z m1dow joined #scheme 2021-05-17T09:00:29Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-17T09:13:35Z m1dow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-17T09:16:14Z midow joined #scheme 2021-05-17T09:17:10Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-05-17T09:29:34Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-17T09:30:44Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-17T09:31:18Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-17T09:32:45Z taylan joined #scheme 2021-05-17T09:41:04Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-17T09:41:38Z 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I'm thinking, maybe a record is overkill 2021-05-17T13:31:15Z wasamasa: amirouche: maybe an alist with procedures inside is the way to go 2021-05-17T13:34:13Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-17T13:35:46Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-17T13:36:51Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-17T13:37:36Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-17T13:37:55Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-05-17T13:43:40Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-17T13:44:00Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-17T13:48:03Z amirouche: wasamasa: i do not understand? 2021-05-17T13:48:21Z wasamasa: I see, you already forgot about okvs :P 2021-05-17T13:48:29Z francogrex joined #scheme 2021-05-17T13:48:50Z wasamasa: and what a pain it was to deal with a record wrapping every single accessor 2021-05-17T13:49:09Z amirouche: yep 2021-05-17T13:49:20Z amirouche: I think in next iteration I will use generics. 2021-05-17T13:49:25Z amirouche: such as chicken generics 2021-05-17T13:49:35Z wasamasa: I thought it was chibi 2021-05-17T13:49:41Z francogrex: Hi, I am looking for a crude automatic translator from java to scheme, anyone knows of something like that? I know there are some from java to lisp (common) 2021-05-17T13:49:52Z wasamasa: how the hell would that even work 2021-05-17T13:49:52Z amirouche: yeah, chibi generics has a next argument that is strange. 2021-05-17T13:50:14Z wasamasa: java has so much more of a library than scheme 2021-05-17T13:50:46Z wasamasa: and very different semantics overall 2021-05-17T13:50:51Z francogrex: I am talking syntax level only, not something like Linj/Jnil 2021-05-17T13:51:09Z wasamasa: I doubt that will buy you much 2021-05-17T13:51:26Z wasamasa: that will give you a java AST 2021-05-17T13:51:27Z francogrex: buy me editing time 2021-05-17T13:51:34Z amirouche: what is the purpose of translating java syntax into s-exp? 2021-05-17T13:52:16Z francogrex: amirouche: the crude code would still need to be worked upon, used for kawa, jscheme... 2021-05-17T13:52:28Z amirouche: hmm 2021-05-17T13:52:30Z phwalkr joined #scheme 2021-05-17T13:52:51Z amirouche: you need java syntax parser. 2021-05-17T13:53:00Z amirouche: I know none of those. 2021-05-17T13:53:22Z amirouche: once you have the syntax parser into ast, it is easier to produce s-exp. 2021-05-17T13:53:26Z francogrex: jnil is great for common lisp, but it's very developped, it's in my git repo 2021-05-17T13:54:11Z wasamasa: (class HelloWorld (method main (public static void) (((array-of String) args)) (System.out.println "Hello world!"))) 2021-05-17T13:54:54Z amirouche: (display "Hello world!\n") 2021-05-17T13:55:25Z wasamasa: that may do the equivalent thing, but not be equivalent 2021-05-17T13:57:11Z francogrex: yes something like that, to go through 100s of lines of code so automatically 2021-05-17T13:59:04Z amirouche: there is company that did that but translated from pascal or fortran into java and c++. They take good money ;) 2021-05-17T13:59:52Z amirouche: more seriously. I can help. I did something similar with python last week end, with python is dozen of sloc. 2021-05-17T13:59:57Z amirouche: I can NOT help. 2021-05-17T14:00:25Z wasamasa: hmm: https://javaparser.org/ 2021-05-17T14:01:26Z wasamasa: if this has an sexp thing, it shouldn't be hard 2021-05-17T14:05:33Z nullx002 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-17T14:05:44Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-05-17T14:06:07Z wasamasa: doesn't seem to be the case tho 2021-05-17T14:08:26Z francogrex: yes. and there are ones that do the reverse of what I would like, without having tried it: https://github.com/julianmendez/jsexp 2021-05-17T14:08:44Z xenon- joined #scheme 2021-05-17T14:09:50Z silasfox quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-17T14:10:17Z francogrex: jnil is great though, but it's annoyingly cumbersom and needs eclispe server: https://github.com/francogrex/jnil 2021-05-17T14:17:37Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-17T14:23:39Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-17T14:35:01Z rcharles joined #scheme 2021-05-17T14:35:55Z rcharles quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-17T14:42:16Z zzappie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-17T14:43:41Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-17T14:47:45Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-17T14:55:30Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-17T14:56:42Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-17T14:57:22Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-17T15:01:45Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-17T15:04:00Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-17T15:04:07Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-17T15:04:45Z jcowan: IMO the fast-generics egg is better than Chibi generics; it provides much better performance and handles subtypes property 2021-05-17T15:05:38Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-17T15:06:44Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-17T15:07:08Z zooey joined #scheme 2021-05-17T15:09:14Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-17T15:11:11Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-17T15:27:33Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-17T15:32:53Z ecraven: jcowan: why does it need to define the types, and not just use the predicates directly? 2021-05-17T15:33:23Z ecraven: ah, it's used for subsumption? 2021-05-17T15:36:59Z midow quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-17T15:37:23Z jcowan: Yes, but also for the generated code: fast-generics is a compiler, whereas (chibi generics) is an interpreter. 2021-05-17T15:38:48Z ecraven: so, we need an srfi for compiler syntax :P :D 2021-05-17T15:38:50Z Kooda: It’s only faster if you use the generics where the compiler can deduce the types, otherwise it’s still runtime dispatching 2021-05-17T15:39:06Z Kooda: Also, only in the same compilation unit (same file) 2021-05-17T15:43:16Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-17T15:50:56Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-17T15:56:19Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-17T16:03:55Z amirouche: it is starting https://github.com/WebAssembly/meetings/blob/master/stack/2021/sg-5-17.md 2021-05-17T16:17:40Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-17T16:22:55Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-17T16:24:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T16:24:12Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-17T16:24:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T16:34:35Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-17T16:35:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T16:35:52Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-17T16:35:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T16:37:19Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-17T16:46:52Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-17T16:53:30Z xcmw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I saw it mentioned at the bottom here, which was linked above: http://letloop.xyz/notes/2021/ruse-scheme-shall-be.html 2021-05-17T20:55:58Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-17T20:56:17Z taylan: this was the top Google result so I assume it's what they were referring to: https://thufie.lain.haus/NPL.html 2021-05-17T20:56:44Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-17T20:57:46Z taylan: that said, I find the "distributed Von Neumann computer" mentioned in the Ruse Scheme blog post very interesting. we have distributed file stores like Freenet, imagine if we had a whole distributed computer built in a similar fashion... 2021-05-17T20:57:53Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-17T20:57:56Z taylan: probably impractical but the idea is really cool :) 2021-05-17T20:58:54Z tatsumaru: isn't this what mining is? 2021-05-17T20:59:25Z tatsumaru: or the protein folding project 2021-05-17T20:59:41Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-17T21:01:28Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:01:30Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-17T21:04:45Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:07:52Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-17T21:08:15Z tatsumaru left #scheme 2021-05-17T21:09:15Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-17T21:12:09Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:25:51Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-17T21:28:19Z dozzie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-17T21:28:48Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:31:01Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:31:16Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T21:35:47Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:36:00Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T21:36:00Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-17T21:36:00Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-17T21:38:16Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-17T21:38:32Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:39:23Z TCZ quit (Quit: ...) 2021-05-17T21:42:41Z pbaille quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:45:22Z _noblegas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-17T21:49:11Z dTal: taylan: I find the idea pretty terrifying actually 2021-05-17T21:49:17Z dTal: a computer you can't switch off... 2021-05-17T21:49:32Z taylan: hahaha 2021-05-17T21:49:45Z dTal: I'm serious, remember skynet 2021-05-17T21:50:04Z dTal: and who programs the horcrux-puter? 2021-05-17T21:50:23Z taylan: well, so long as we don't give it control over any crazy hardware, it can't do much :P 2021-05-17T21:51:57Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:52:56Z taylan: in fact I don't think it would have control over any hardware at all, other than a distributed CPU, RAM, and disk. it would have an API over which it receives code to execute and give you the results. 2021-05-17T21:55:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-17T21:55:48Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-17T21:57:10Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-17T22:00:27Z pbaille joined #scheme 2021-05-17T22:05:08Z dozzie joined #scheme 2021-05-17T22:13:57Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-17T22:18:59Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-17T22:27:42Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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2021-05-18T07:14:06Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:14:41Z tdammers: what icks me the most about those "ethical" licenses is that they are clearly made to look and feel like open-source licenses, but they are not, not by any stretch, and by doing so, they misrepresent actual open source 2021-05-18T07:15:22Z tdammers: using software licensing as economic or political leverage is exactly what open source tries to *prevent* 2021-05-18T07:19:28Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:21:26Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:28:09Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-18T07:29:11Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-18T07:29:45Z MysteriousSilver joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:32:44Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:34:14Z sm2n quit (Excess Flood) 2021-05-18T07:34:34Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:35:26Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:37:13Z silasfox quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-18T07:37:23Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:38:53Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-18T07:39:23Z silasfox quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-18T07:39:32Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:45:53Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:46:37Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-18T07:47:15Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:50:41Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-18T07:55:49Z amirouche: The distributed Von Newmann computer I am mentioning, I borrow the expression from Google, it only works in trusted networks unlike freenet. The implementation I have in mind every harwdware machine has the same code, unlike Gambit, I do not know yet how to send any procedure to any trusted machine, again unlike Gambit. 2021-05-18T07:56:58Z amirouche: Like Google, what I have in mind is a scalable non volatile memory, and scalable volatile memory, the bus is not unique, and cpu comes in two sorts "dedicated" and "cooperative" 2021-05-18T08:00:01Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-18T08:00:29Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T08:00:48Z zooey joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:01:29Z amirouche: clearly calling it "Distributed Von Neumann" is a stretch, the point is you can program a single machine like you program multiple machines. 2021-05-18T08:01:48Z amirouche: memory is not merely an array. 2021-05-18T08:02:31Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:03:09Z amirouche: The same program can scale to multiple machines. 2021-05-18T08:03:25Z amirouche: At least in my imagination, I did not write the code. 2021-05-18T08:05:37Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-18T08:06:23Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:06:40Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:09:57Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-18T08:17:44Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:20:13Z dpk: hmm, considering adding a ternary/n-ary chained comparison operator/syntax to my comparator library 2021-05-18T08:20:41Z dpk: something like (range-check some-comparator 0 < n <= 100) 2021-05-18T08:21:40Z dpk: infix is bleh in Lisp, but in this case i don't see a way to do it elegantly with prefix notation where you have a mix of strict and non-strict comparing operators like this 2021-05-18T08:22:20Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:22:34Z wasamasa: why not (range-check 0 < n <= 100) 2021-05-18T08:27:02Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:27:10Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-18T08:29:34Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-18T08:30:25Z taylan joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:31:49Z catonano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-18T08:36:35Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:37:34Z sm2n_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T08:37:50Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:42:32Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:42:47Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-18T08:46:58Z sm2n_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T08:47:07Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-05-18T08:59:06Z mdhughes: (number-in-range? n 0 100) or (number-in-range? n (range 0 100)) 2021-05-18T08:59:16Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-18T09:00:03Z mdhughes: Where range is the constructor for whatever range type you wanna make, give that some iterators & such. 2021-05-18T09:00:49Z mdhughes: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-196/srfi-196.html 2021-05-18T09:02:34Z mdhughes: Tho that's much larger an API than I'd really want from ranges. 2021-05-18T09:02:53Z wasamasa: such is SRFI 2021-05-18T09:03:43Z mdhughes: "Let's copy everything every superclass of Python's range provides, even if all you really ever use is an iterator and ->list" 2021-05-18T09:06:17Z amirouche: (apply either? 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The only time I see that it is withing (apply values args) as part of with-foobar thing. 2021-05-18T13:14:01Z silasfox quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-18T13:14:05Z sm2n_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T13:14:08Z amirouche: (tho, I did not emprically saw the problem) 2021-05-18T13:14:21Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-05-18T13:15:18Z amirouche: on a related note, I think in the immediate term I will not make efforts to implement rest arguments and multiple value returns with ruse wasm. 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For a "real" release, I'd need to add support for negative ranges, where "hi" is low; two branches in each function. 2021-05-18T17:55:59Z mdhughes: But I think that's like 99% of the cases I'd ever use. APIs don't need to be 600 lines. 2021-05-18T17:58:31Z Zipheir: "600 lines". Referring to SRFI 196? 2021-05-18T17:59:11Z mdhughes: Yeah. Source is a hairy ball. 2021-05-18T18:00:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-18T18:00:17Z Zipheir: Do you mean the SRFI document, or the sample implementation? (Mostly my work, incidentally, though I have no issue with simplifying it, if that's possible.) 2021-05-18T18:00:43Z Zipheir: I will say that what you've pasted is 90% of implementing SRFI 196; the rest is icing on the cake. 2021-05-18T18:00:45Z mdhughes: Sample impl. No offense, just massively too much stuff for a..b 2021-05-18T18:01:29Z Zipheir: I'd say there's nothing particularly complicated in there. 2021-05-18T18:01:44Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-18T18:01:56Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-18T18:02:40Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-05-18T18:02:54Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T18:03:36Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Again, if you have suggestions for simplifying the implementation, please send them this way. I can't delete any forms, of course. 2021-05-18T18:04:33Z mdhughes: The API has too many functions. 2021-05-18T18:05:02Z Zipheir: I can't change that. A "Ranges (Reduced)" SRFI is possible, though. 2021-05-18T18:05:41Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-18T18:05:59Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-18T18:06:34Z Zipheir: When it comes to library design, there are forms that add significant complexity, and there are forms that basically just add another name. Most of SRFI 196 is in the latter category (except for numeric-range, which was more complicated than we expected). 2021-05-18T18:07:42Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-18T18:08:26Z Zipheir: SRFI 1 contains a lot (too much, for some), too; you could do everything with a much smaller set of list procedures, but the additional forms are convenient and easy to implement and to get right, once and for all. 2021-05-18T18:09:25Z Zipheir: I'm concerned that SRFI 224 contains too much, but it's again a case of convenience at the expense of minimal additional implementation difficulty. 2021-05-18T18:10:23Z mdhughes: SRFI-1 is massive, so is SRFI-13, but it's mostly stuff found by years and years of work with Scheme, not architecture astronauting, which I take many later SRFIs to be. 2021-05-18T18:10:58Z Zipheir: Well, a lot of the precedent was set by Olin's libraries. 2021-05-18T18:11:48Z Zipheir: Hence every new structure has partition, filter-map, and other forms peculiar to SRFI 1. 2021-05-18T18:12:22Z coffeeturtle joined #scheme 2021-05-18T18:12:57Z coffeeturtle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T18:15:35Z mdhughes: Which is, A) not needed if you have type->list, and/or B) we should have generic functions so new types can be supported without copying a whole framework. 2021-05-18T18:16:45Z mdhughes: type->list is kind of a horrible hack, 2 extra pointers per element and then you throw all that away when you're done, but it's a well-optimized hack. 2021-05-18T18:16:46Z Zipheir: (A) is generally very inefficient. For (B) we have several options. 2021-05-18T18:17:35Z mdhughes: Most of the time when I go "should I make some complex thing, or put it in a list?" I benchmark both and the list is comparable or faster. 2021-05-18T18:17:38Z Zipheir: It actually gets ludicrous for some operations, e.g. filtering a set. 2021-05-18T18:18:32Z Zipheir: S -from-set-> list-of-S --> filter p --> list-of-S' -to-set-> S 2021-05-18T18:19:00Z Zipheir: Thus we have good cause to use set-filter. 2021-05-18T18:19:12Z Zipheir: Oops, last element should be S'. 2021-05-18T18:22:55Z Zipheir: I like pairs and lists as fundamental building blocks for structures, but, as a general-purpose data structure, the complexity of list operations is a bottleneck. 2021-05-18T18:24:00Z mdhughes: I like them as a primitive, ultimately every type we have is a list or vector. 2021-05-18T18:24:43Z mdhughes: It does mean you need to write filters and such, but that path is so heavily optimized in most Schemes you can afford an extra filter function. 2021-05-18T18:27:14Z amirouche: anyone can explain to me how chicken fast-generics work? here is the code https://dpaste.com/AL3JUD8KU 2021-05-18T18:28:09Z amirouche: I do not understand the body of the procedure is used once, then... 2021-05-18T18:28:34Z amirouche: I think I get it there is something happening with build-or-clause 2021-05-18T18:28:54Z amirouche: and generic-data-add 2021-05-18T18:30:38Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-18T18:31:45Z amirouche: but generic-data-add comes from where? 2021-05-18T18:32:57Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-18T18:36:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-18T18:36:34Z Kooda: The companion module: fast-generic-compile-time 2021-05-18T18:38:53Z amirouche: oh ah! I was wondering what as the purpose of that : 2021-05-18T18:38:56Z amirouche: ty 2021-05-18T18:40:32Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T18:41:28Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-18T18:44:52Z zap1 joined #scheme 2021-05-18T18:45:33Z amirouche: I am not sure how it is faster than chibi in the single dispatch case. 2021-05-18T18:45:52Z amirouche: I mean, it is not possible to make predicate based generic faster than chibi 2021-05-18T18:46:31Z amirouche: what is possible is to build a prefix tree to avoid to test the same predicate multiple times. 2021-05-18T18:47:04Z Zipheir: amirouche: Are you still working on your compiler/interpreter? 2021-05-18T18:47:14Z amirouche: Zipheir: yes, why? 2021-05-18T18:47:30Z Zipheir: amirouche: Can you do static typing and avoid the runtime checks? 2021-05-18T18:47:48Z amirouche: runtime checks about what? 2021-05-18T18:48:03Z Zipheir: Predicate-based generics. 2021-05-18T18:49:21Z amirouche: So that when calling the generic it does not need at runtime to match argument against predicates? 2021-05-18T18:49:54Z amirouche: At the moment there is no type inference so, no. 2021-05-18T18:50:38Z amirouche: not at scheme level. Also type inference is not handled by nanopass approach, it requires to traverse the call graph (IIUC) 2021-05-18T18:50:58Z taylan: amirouche: ooh, is it a toy project or something serious? :) 2021-05-18T18:51:07Z amirouche: And it also requires at compile time some knowledge about the predicate. 2021-05-18T18:51:24Z Kooda: amirouche: fast-generic will use static types known by the compiler at the call site 2021-05-18T18:51:44Z Kooda: (with CHICKEN I mean) 2021-05-18T18:52:14Z Zipheir: amirouche: IIUC nanopass is just an approach to structuring a compiler. I don't see why it shouldn't be compatible with type-inference. 2021-05-18T18:52:23Z amirouche: taylan: it is toy i guess. Serious, in the sense I will be paid when I delivere. 2021-05-18T18:52:39Z taylan keeps dreaming about making a toy pseudo-Scheme or an R8iRS (Revised^8i Report Scheme i.e. "imaginary" R8RS :P) 2021-05-18T18:53:49Z taylan: amirouche: interesting! is it a research project, or how come someone pays for a new Scheme implementation when there are so many free ones to choose from? :P (if I may ask...) 2021-05-18T18:54:01Z amirouche: fwiw, the initial benchmarks are encouraging, it is even faster than gambit, but I made some mistakes while writing the wasm program so maybe it as fast as gambit regarding make-coroutine-generator. 2021-05-18T18:55:06Z amirouche: taylan: It is a grant, nlnet, yes they are other scheme that target browsers, but none that I tried is "good enough", Gambit is the best, but... I prefer my bugs. 2021-05-18T18:55:15Z amirouche: I did not try Spock. 2021-05-18T18:55:57Z taylan: ahh, for the browser. makes sense yeah. 2021-05-18T18:56:10Z amirouche: taylan: they will pay for the scheme search engine. I promised a full-stack scheme project. 2021-05-18T18:56:18Z Zipheir: amirouche: Is there a public repo? 2021-05-18T18:56:40Z amirouche: Zipheir: it is scattered, and anyway not in a working state. 2021-05-18T18:57:02Z Zipheir: amirouche: I'd suggest making it public as soon as possible. 2021-05-18T18:57:13Z justinethier joined #scheme 2021-05-18T18:57:23Z amirouche: Zipheir: what should be public ? the search engine or the wasm compiler ? 2021-05-18T18:57:37Z Zipheir: amirouche: I recall previous amz3 projects which ... disappeared before becoming public. 2021-05-18T18:57:46Z Zipheir: amirouche: Everything. 2021-05-18T18:57:54Z amirouche: Zipheir: no, it is public just hidden ^^' 2021-05-18T18:58:02Z Zipheir: Boo. 2021-05-18T18:58:06Z amirouche: Zipheir: and it does not work well. 2021-05-18T18:58:24Z Zipheir: amirouche: Maybe people will want to contribute. 2021-05-18T18:58:37Z amirouche: no never happens ^^' 2021-05-18T18:58:47Z amirouche: tx for asking. 2021-05-18T18:59:03Z Zipheir: amirouche: How can we contribute if we can't see it? 2021-05-18T18:59:18Z Zipheir: Hiding work guarantees zero contributors. 2021-05-18T19:00:15Z amirouche: you already contribute, but you do not know it :) 2021-05-18T19:00:35Z amirouche: let me look at srfi. 2021-05-18T19:00:55Z amirouche: easy pick is integer mapping, I will need it. 2021-05-18T19:00:59Z amirouche: but I do not use it yet. 2021-05-18T19:02:17Z amirouche: also the code is ugly, I stopped trying to write good code, because it harms productivity. I do it in small steps. 2021-05-18T19:02:32Z amirouche: the code = my code. 2021-05-18T19:03:11Z Zipheir: I enjoy untangling complicated code. 2021-05-18T19:03:24Z Zipheir: Well, within reason. 2021-05-18T19:04:10Z justinethier: Since we are talking about WASM, does anyone have an opinion on https://cyclone-scheme.netlify.app/terminal.html 2021-05-18T19:05:07Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-18T19:05:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-18T19:06:07Z Zipheir: justinethier: Hey, welcome. Thanks for your work on Cyclone. :) 2021-05-18T19:06:17Z dpk: my first opinion: it doesn't seem to be working 2021-05-18T19:06:30Z dpk: ReferenceError: Can't find variable: Atomics 2021-05-18T19:06:31Z justinethier: Zipheir: NP :) 2021-05-18T19:06:43Z dpk: terminal.js line 384 2021-05-18T19:06:56Z amirouche: justinethier: much better than other things I have seen that try to do the same :) 2021-05-18T19:06:56Z dpk: it isn't loading the source map so i can't offer anything more helpful than that 2021-05-18T19:06:59Z justinethier: dpk:  what browser are you using 2021-05-18T19:07:02Z dpk: Safari 2021-05-18T19:07:16Z justinethier: OK, will need to test with that 2021-05-18T19:07:30Z justinethier: I have noticed it not working on iOS 2021-05-18T19:07:46Z Zipheir: Yeah, I get a blank page on Firefox. 2021-05-18T19:08:31Z justinethier: hmm. It runs on Firefox over here... 2021-05-18T19:08:33Z amirouche: there is colors! 2021-05-18T19:08:45Z justinethier: Zipheir: what platform and version are you using? 2021-05-18T19:08:47Z justinethier: Yes :) 2021-05-18T19:08:49Z Zipheir: Works in Chromium, however. 2021-05-18T19:08:53Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T19:09:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-18T19:09:05Z amirouche: justinethier: do you target wasm or C then wasm? 2021-05-18T19:09:07Z Zipheir: justinethier: Firefox ESR on Linux. 2021-05-18T19:10:18Z Zipheir: The page is loading now, but "loading" forever, it seems. 2021-05-18T19:10:23Z justinethier: Zipheir: thanks, I'll look into it 2021-05-18T19:10:36Z justinethier: Must be a problem loading the WASM 2021-05-18T19:10:55Z phwalkr joined #scheme 2021-05-18T19:10:59Z justinethier: amirouche: Target C and compile it to WASM. There are minimal changes to the core compiler 2021-05-18T19:11:29Z amirouche: justinethier: can pause and resume web assembly to process xhr ? 2021-05-18T19:11:36Z amirouche: or js events? 2021-05-18T19:12:46Z justinethier: That would be a good enhancement :) 2021-05-18T19:13:31Z amirouche: that is the problem with schism (self hosted scheme compiler targeting wasm) afaik. Chibi can do it. 2021-05-18T19:13:34Z justinethier: Can send data back and forth between the WASM side and JS so could use that to implement those functions. Or maybe there is a better way. The only integration in this demo is between the terminal on the JS side and the engine in WASM 2021-05-18T19:14:01Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-18T19:14:11Z amirouche: I will ask the question otherwise. Do you poll events inside web assembly or javascript side? 2021-05-18T19:14:26Z amirouche: like 60 times a second call wasm? 2021-05-18T19:15:19Z amirouche: AFAIU / AFAIK that is how wasm games are implemented :/ 2021-05-18T19:15:39Z amirouche: I mean existing C games that are compiled to wasm. 2021-05-18T19:16:04Z justinethier: So, the JS side calls into WASM and passes the string to be evaluated to a global. The WASM side checks that global every 0.1 seconds 2021-05-18T19:16:23Z justinethier: There is probably a better way to implement it 2021-05-18T19:16:36Z justinethier: Never great to be polling :( 2021-05-18T19:16:39Z amirouche: it rely on a web worker? 2021-05-18T19:17:03Z justinethier: It uses emscripten with pthreads, so whatever that toolchain uses. I think so 2021-05-18T19:17:29Z justinethier: You are working on a WASM compiler? 2021-05-18T19:17:33Z amirouche: fwiw, I was following chibi js that use emscripten, it breaks every 6 month. 2021-05-18T19:17:46Z amirouche: yes. 2021-05-18T19:17:49Z justinethier: emscripten? 2021-05-18T19:18:16Z amirouche: emcripten change its flags, then chibi js break. 2021-05-18T19:18:20Z justinethier: What toolchain are you using? 2021-05-18T19:18:37Z amirouche: for my compiler, i use not toolchain. 2021-05-18T19:18:40Z justinethier: Emscripten seems a bit like the wild west at times. Newer versions broken -O2 for this project 2021-05-18T19:18:53Z justinethier: Good deal 2021-05-18T19:19:09Z justinethier: Is your compiler going to be open source? 2021-05-18T19:19:15Z justinethier: Should post a link to the repo :) 2021-05-18T19:19:17Z amirouche: So far I rely on match pattern matching, and pass sexp that are transformed in small steps. 2021-05-18T19:19:27Z amirouche: well I was going to. 2021-05-18T19:19:48Z justinethier: :) 2021-05-18T19:19:55Z justinethier: Cool 2021-05-18T19:20:38Z justinethier: So, is it a compiler hosted on WASM or do you compile Scheme to that platform? 2021-05-18T19:21:30Z amirouche: not it is not hosted on wasm, it only produce wasm. 2021-05-18T19:21:44Z amirouche: yes I compile a subset of scheme to that. 2021-05-18T19:21:50Z amirouche: to wasm. 2021-05-18T19:24:29Z amirouche: fwiw here is the last line with the program I can compile a the moment: https://github.com/amirouche/ruse/blob/wasm2/scratch.scm#L798 2021-05-18T19:24:49Z amirouche: after tweaking the output it possible to run and obtain the good result. 2021-05-18T19:25:10Z amirouche: like I wrote above the code is ugly. 2021-05-18T19:26:37Z justinethier: Its all good 2021-05-18T19:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T19:28:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-18T19:30:54Z justinethier: One of the annoying things about WASM, from a development perspective, is that it requires security headers to be served when using pthreads (for SharedArrayBuffer). So I could not host my site on github 2021-05-18T19:37:22Z justinethier: Looks like a good start. Will there be a runtime or can everything compile directly into WASM? 2021-05-18T19:39:41Z sdu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T19:43:12Z amirouche: I mean, in the short term the runtime will be in js stuff from (scheme base). string, integers, bytevectors etc... 2021-05-18T19:43:52Z amirouche: with wasm type `externref`, you can pass a js object to wasm, then call an imported js function on it. 2021-05-18T19:44:26Z amirouche: In other words, wasm just speed the trampoline. 2021-05-18T19:45:02Z justinethier: Interesting 2021-05-18T19:45:11Z justinethier: Do you need a GC on the WASM side? 2021-05-18T19:46:01Z amirouche: not really. But there is table I call $stack where i put scheme procedures argument and return value. I needs to be cleaned up some time. 2021-05-18T19:46:35Z amirouche: Once wasm does not reference a JS object, JS will GC that. 2021-05-18T19:47:22Z amirouche: There is no GC wasm side, so far. 2021-05-18T19:47:58Z amirouche: I do not use what wasm calls memory. 2021-05-18T19:48:30Z amirouche: every variable is in the table, hence javascript, or a wasm function argument or return value. 2021-05-18T19:48:52Z amirouche: Closures are also javascript. 2021-05-18T19:50:02Z amirouche: I need to add naive letrec* step and primitive box, and I will be able to compile fibonacci. 2021-05-18T19:50:30Z amirouche: also call/cc is supported, but I did not write the transformation for call/cc itself. 2021-05-18T19:50:43Z amirouche: The compilation strategy support call/cc and pause / resume 2021-05-18T19:52:12Z justinethier: Nice 2021-05-18T19:52:21Z justinethier: So all the variables are JS objects, then? 2021-05-18T19:53:30Z amirouche: scheme variables are JS objects yes 2021-05-18T19:54:03Z justinethier: That simplifies things quite a bit, I would think 2021-05-18T19:54:22Z justinethier: Is WASM buying you a lot of performance with this approach? 2021-05-18T19:55:11Z amirouche: it removes the need for a GC. But the JS types are sloppy, to be strongly typed, I need to be careful with essential procedures. 2021-05-18T19:55:46Z amirouche: So far yes, but I did not compare apple-to-apple. 2021-05-18T19:56:55Z amirouche: also there is no numeric tower in js, so basically, it is not conformant easily. 2021-05-18T19:57:03Z amirouche: even js bigint is a mess. 2021-05-18T19:58:38Z amirouche: I mean I can make it work, unlike writing a GC. 2021-05-18T19:59:35Z justinethier: Yeah, numbers in JS are kind of a mess in general 2021-05-18T19:59:43Z justinethier: No integer type 2021-05-18T20:00:21Z gwatt: well, there's now bigint, but you can't mix operations on flonums and bigints 2021-05-18T20:00:53Z gwatt: you have to suffix numeric literals with "n". 1234n is a bigint 2021-05-18T20:03:02Z gwatt: huh. in node, you can have binary, decimal, and hexadecimal bigint literals, but not octal literals. You can have octal literals for standard numbers 2021-05-18T20:04:19Z amirouche: I do not plan to be portable with RnRS, I want to document the approach, and have enough of scheme available in the browser to complete the search engine webui. 2021-05-18T20:04:40Z amirouche: I was going to drop the webui because I was not happy with the other scheme in the browser solutions. 2021-05-18T20:05:00Z justinethier: A copying collector with cheney's algorithm is surprisingly simple: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheney%27s_algorithm 2021-05-18T20:05:19Z justinethier: Kind of a distraction from the larger goal though, if you don't need it 2021-05-18T20:06:31Z amirouche: interesting nonetheless ^^ 2021-05-18T20:06:59Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-18T20:07:07Z amirouche afk 2021-05-18T20:10:19Z ecraven: wow, the 1password cli tool is rather useless. it just returns the internal json, which is different for all the different types of entries, so you have to reconstruct the internal format *without* proper documentation.. 2021-05-18T20:15:54Z gwatt: that's weird. I would have thought the format was {"username":"", "password":""} and that's all you need 2021-05-18T20:16:41Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-05-18T20:18:22Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-18T20:20:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-18T20:24:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-18T20:26:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-18T20:29:18Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-18T20:34:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-18T20:40:13Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-18T20:40:33Z eddof13 joined #scheme 2021-05-18T20:41:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-18T20:42:04Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-18T20:48:54Z Zipheir: Additional point on ranges: if you think SRFI 196 has "too much stuff for a..b", it may be because it's intended to cover more than just ranges of an enumerated type. Ranges are a general lazily-evaluated set-like type, comparable to SRFI 42's comprehensions, only lazy. 2021-05-18T20:49:15Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-18T20:53:04Z Zipheir: In fact, an update SRFI 42 with stream, range, and generator comprehensions would be nice. 2021-05-18T20:53:09Z Zipheir: s/update/&d/ 2021-05-18T20:53:10Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-05-18T20:55:07Z Zipheir: Oh, the author of SRFI 42 did contribute a stream-ec implementation sketch. 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Please replace your old quit message with this one and help me take over the IRC world.) 2021-05-19T02:50:13Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-05-19T02:51:30Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T03:01:58Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T03:04:56Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-19T03:23:37Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T03:39:35Z kluk joined #scheme 2021-05-19T03:40:54Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T03:43:55Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-19T03:47:03Z ggoes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-05-19T03:47:05Z mdhughes: Zipheir: Then those should be separate SRFIs. You add a library to get one specific functionality, not everything at once. 2021-05-19T03:47:27Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-05-19T03:51:02Z kluk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T03:54:49Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T04:03:16Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-19T04:06:07Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-19T04:06:42Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T04:14:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T04:20:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-05-19T04:41:04Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-05-19T04:59:16Z Zipheir: It seems to me that if we're writing a library for a data type with general applications, we'd want to try to provide the most general, useful interface. Multiple SRFIs to cover different uses of ranges seems extraneous when there were only a few dozen in 196. 2021-05-19T05:01:10Z Zipheir: Specialized libraries, like integer sets/mappings, make sense to me for cases where there's a need for a specialized language of forms, or where specialization can open up more efficient implentations. 2021-05-19T05:03:45Z Zipheir: ^^ Ah, "a few dozen procedures". 2021-05-19T05:06:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-19T05:06:48Z ecraven: gwatt: it's either .password, .overview.password, .details.
.password, or something else... 2021-05-19T05:08:02Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-19T05:10:39Z Zipheir: In short, I think that correctness, simplicity, and generality are all important goals to balance in a library spec. SRFI 196 (which is jcowan's spec) does this very well, IMHO. 2021-05-19T05:16:27Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-19T05:16:55Z rjcks joined #scheme 2021-05-19T05:17:02Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T05:27:17Z mdhughes: The appeal of Scheme for me was that it's a minimalist but complete language. You can make your own elaborations, if you're smart enough to use it in the first place. R5RS is minimalist. R6RS is at the upper end of complete, but it's not exhaustive, it's <10% the bulk of R7RS-large now. 2021-05-19T05:28:11Z mdhughes: And there's a real cost to that, an optimizing compiler *might* be able to get rid of some of the fat, but generally a big library just adds to your binary/distro size. 2021-05-19T05:30:50Z Zipheir: I suspect that if that's your major concern, you'll want to just copypasta one or two procedures as a minimal library. 2021-05-19T05:31:12Z Zipheir: Scheme is maximalist as well as minimal: "There should be every way to do it." (jcowan?) 2021-05-19T05:33:00Z mdhughes: "Programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make additional features appear nec- essary. Scheme demonstrates that a very small number of rules for forming expressions, with no restrictions on how they are composed, suffice to form a practical and efficient programming language that is flexible enough to supp 2021-05-19T05:33:00Z mdhughes: ort most of the major programming paradigms in use today. " 2021-05-19T05:34:28Z Zipheir: Oh, indeed. And that is a great quote which I'm glad is still at the beginning of the standard. 2021-05-19T05:36:00Z Zipheir: But, in terms of complexity, there's adding, say, an object system to your language and, given car, cdr, and cons, things like `take' and `drop'. 2021-05-19T05:36:47Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-19T05:37:09Z Zipheir: The "maximalism" of some SRFIs is more of the latter variety: more forms, for generality and convenience, but none that add *substantial* complexity. 2021-05-19T05:37:21Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T05:37:43Z Zipheir: Anyway, I suspect we're not likely to arrive at agreement on the meaning of simplicity. 2021-05-19T05:45:05Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-19T05:52:07Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-19T05:52:49Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:34:05Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:37:07Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:41:02Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:42:35Z klovett__ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:44:09Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-19T06:45:28Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T06:49:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:50:34Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:53:14Z klovett__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-19T06:53:41Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T06:54:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:54:36Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T06:55:15Z klovett__ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:56:28Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T06:57:01Z klovet___ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T06:57:41Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T06:58:41Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T07:00:58Z klovett__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-19T07:06:58Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-19T07:12:58Z dpk notices that (scheme base)'s vector-map doesn't pass an index argument, unlike SRFI 133's 2021-05-19T07:13:13Z dpk: (i.e. (scheme vector)'s) 2021-05-19T07:13:41Z dpk: and SRFI 133's specification for it has a [R7RS-small] tag 2021-05-19T07:15:14Z dpk: Chibi doesn't pass an index argument whether (scheme vector)/(srfi 133) is loaded or not 2021-05-19T07:16:55Z dpk: oh wait, i misread. SRFI 133 doesn't pass an index argument either 2021-05-19T07:17:30Z dpk: (i was confused because of the mention of ‘index i’ in the specification) 2021-05-19T07:17:47Z iv4nshm4k-v joined #scheme 2021-05-19T07:18:27Z dpk: ahh, it was SRFI 43 that had the index argument, and SRFI 133 removed it 2021-05-19T07:18:52Z link2xt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T07:37:42Z mdhughes: Cleaned up my little range code and put it in my library: https://paste.debian.net/1198072/ 2021-05-19T07:38:42Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-19T07:39:11Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-19T07:52:51Z silasfox quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-19T08:00:39Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T08:01:15Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-05-19T08:02:12Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-19T08:03:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T08:05:11Z klovet___ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T08:05:45Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-19T08:09:09Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T08:10:15Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-19T08:14:55Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-19T08:16:25Z silasfox quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-19T08:17:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T08:18:20Z link2xt joined #scheme 2021-05-19T08:22:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T08:30:53Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-19T08:35:25Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T08:38:26Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T08:56:32Z zap1 joined #scheme 2021-05-19T09:00:47Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-19T09:05:24Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-19T09:13:24Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-19T09:15:43Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-19T09:15:43Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-19T09:16:14Z dto quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-19T09:16:26Z samth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T09:17:07Z ullbeking quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-19T09:31:27Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T09:32:12Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-19T09:33:54Z jcowan joined #scheme 2021-05-19T09:34:33Z ullbeking joined #scheme 2021-05-19T09:35:24Z dto joined #scheme 2021-05-19T09:39:07Z physpi joined #scheme 2021-05-19T09:40:06Z samth joined #scheme 2021-05-19T09:55:25Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-19T09:57:51Z mdhughes: Well, hell. It's real. https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt 2021-05-19T10:08:15Z foof: It was fun while it lasted. 2021-05-19T10:08:28Z foof: I guess I'll see you all in the AOL chat rooms. 2021-05-19T10:09:00Z X-Scale: hah 2021-05-19T10:10:50Z wasamasa: OFTC is the most realistic alternative 2021-05-19T10:11:14Z wasamasa: for free software that is 2021-05-19T10:11:20Z wasamasa: for security, hackint I guess 2021-05-19T10:11:28Z wasamasa: and for politics, those people can go fuck off 2021-05-19T10:13:41Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T10:18:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T10:19:33Z zap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T10:19:59Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T10:20:24Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-19T10:21:38Z zap1 joined #scheme 2021-05-19T10:23:29Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-19T10:23:42Z amirouche: AOL chat rooms it is. 2021-05-19T10:28:45Z zap1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T10:29:31Z mdhughes: Uh huh. libera is still password-controlled, but hopefully it'll be up soon. 2021-05-19T10:29:48Z zap1 joined #scheme 2021-05-19T10:30:49Z mdhughes: I guess I'd rather use matrix… as long as someone else runs it. And it's ugly when someone loses their pubkey. 2021-05-19T10:31:48Z amirouche: what about OFTC? it is an existing network? I am not sure why create a new network. 2021-05-19T10:32:06Z wasamasa: it's an existing network 2021-05-19T10:32:13Z wasamasa: it hosts free software projects 2021-05-19T10:34:00Z wasamasa: https://netsplit.de/channels/?net=OFTC&chat= 2021-05-19T10:34:02Z mdhughes: I don't know their admins. I know freenode's been run fine, until this legal shit. 2021-05-19T10:34:13Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-05-19T10:34:56Z wasamasa: lol 2021-05-19T10:35:01Z wasamasa: freenode had issues way before 2021-05-19T10:41:42Z Noisytoot_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-19T10:41:49Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:03:25Z rjcks_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:03:33Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T11:03:39Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:04:26Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T11:06:11Z rjcks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T11:08:00Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:08:51Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:10:13Z xsperry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T11:15:19Z taylan joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:18:03Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:21:50Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T11:22:03Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:24:52Z sm2n_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T11:25:22Z iv4nshm4k-v left #scheme 2021-05-19T11:27:05Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:29:13Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-19T11:29:49Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T11:35:50Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:36:11Z lockywolf: what happened? 2021-05-19T11:36:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:37:04Z lockywolf: freenode is being closed down? 2021-05-19T11:37:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:39:39Z ecraven: so irc.libera.chat as soon as that is open? 2021-05-19T11:39:59Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:41:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-19T11:44:10Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T11:45:21Z amirouche rolleyes 2021-05-19T11:45:24Z amirouche: https://twitter.com/freenodestaff/status/1394957058445914112 2021-05-19T11:45:30Z amirouche: freenode's volunteer staff are aware of and sorry about the noise this morning. we still retain control of the network and we'll let you know if/when that changes. 2021-05-19T11:45:33Z amirouche: ~jess 2021-05-19T11:50:31Z ChoHag: Yay drama! There hasn't been any decent TV in ages. 2021-05-19T11:54:26Z lockywolf: ChoHag, there has been a Stallman-related drama just a few months ago 2021-05-19T11:56:12Z lockywolf: btw, what does (+ 0.1 0.2) produce on your machines? 2021-05-19T11:57:25Z dpk: (^ what you see will probably depend more on how a Scheme converts floats to decimal strings than on any underlying difference in floating-point arithmetic) 2021-05-19T11:59:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T11:59:50Z brendyyn joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:02:50Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T12:03:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T12:03:16Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:03:56Z mdhughes: "freenode staff" = London Trust, the guy who took it over. 2021-05-19T12:05:41Z dpk: "-jess- [Global Notice] Hi all. It feels like my moral responsibility to inform all users that administrative control of freenode and its user data will soon change hands, and I will be resigning from freenode staff effective immediately. It's been an honour to help you all." 2021-05-19T12:05:45Z dpk: well, that didn't last long 2021-05-19T12:06:20Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:06:35Z dpk: fortunately, my user data remains subject to the GDPR 😎 good luck selling *my* email address, losers 2021-05-19T12:07:35Z amirouche: that is rollercoaster? jess sent a wall message in contradiction with the above tweet. 2021-05-19T12:08:00Z ChoHag: amirouche: Give it 12-18 hours at least for tempers to cool. 2021-05-19T12:08:07Z mdhughes: And freenode just RT'd the resignation letter. 2021-05-19T12:08:20Z mdhughes: Clusters all fucked. 2021-05-19T12:08:25Z ChoHag: There are too many handbags flying around to make sense of anything. 2021-05-19T12:08:41Z ChoHag: Just enjoy the show. 2021-05-19T12:08:49Z amirouche: yeah i guess 2021-05-19T12:09:02Z mdhughes: No, calmly start packing your things, because the ship is sinking. 2021-05-19T12:09:18Z ChoHag: Well that too. 2021-05-19T12:10:25Z ChoHag: Although generally when the ship is sinking it's too late to pack and you can only grab your emergency bag. 2021-05-19T12:11:46Z mdhughes: libera is now up. 2021-05-19T12:12:00Z ChoHag: It's not hard to bring a service up. Keeping it up is the key. 2021-05-19T12:12:10Z mdhughes: Someone who wants op should go sit on some channels. 2021-05-19T12:12:30Z lockywolf: nothing's gonna change 2021-05-19T12:13:17Z lockywolf: anyway, (+ 0.1 0.2) produces different results on Chibi and CLISP 2021-05-19T12:13:32Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:17:57Z dpk: floating point numbers were a mistake 2021-05-19T12:18:06Z dpk: thank fuck Scheme has exact rationals 2021-05-19T12:18:08Z LeoNerd: Fixnum is bestnum 2021-05-19T12:19:33Z taylan: yay, I'm the OP of #guile, #guix, and #scheme :P (no worries I'd give them away to the right people) 2021-05-19T12:19:40Z taylan: whoops wrong channel 2021-05-19T12:19:45Z taylan: I was talking about irc.libera.chat 2021-05-19T12:19:55Z dpk: oh, is it open? 2021-05-19T12:20:15Z LeoNerd: I'm over there now :) 2021-05-19T12:21:00Z mdhughes: It is up, nickserv responds now. 2021-05-19T12:24:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T12:26:50Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:30:58Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:31:04Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:31:25Z TCZ quit (Quit: ...) 2021-05-19T12:32:21Z ManDay: Hi, if I want a sideeffect to occur before entering a scope and after leaving it (indent of debug output inc/dec for recursion, in case you wonder about the X-Y), what's the good way? Macro? Lazy evaluation? Something else? 2021-05-19T12:32:57Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:33:29Z ManDay: (call-with-inc-indent (my-rec-function ...)) 2021-05-19T12:34:36Z ManDay: syntax for (begin (set! indent (+1 indent)) (my-rec-function ...) (set! indent (-1 indent))) for example 2021-05-19T12:35:22Z mdhughes: Wrap it in a closure that does your stuff and passes args to the wrapped function. 2021-05-19T12:35:23Z wasamasa: seems like you want to reinvent prog1 or such 2021-05-19T12:35:37Z ecraven: begin0! 2021-05-19T12:35:45Z wasamasa: (prog1 (form-to-return) (cleanup-code)) 2021-05-19T12:35:52Z ManDay: no shortage of options, i see, lol 2021-05-19T12:35:53Z wasamasa: or begin0, same thing 2021-05-19T12:36:24Z wasamasa: if you want to do things before and after, ask yourself whether dynamic-wind is that already 2021-05-19T12:36:27Z ManDay: mdhughes: not sure what you mean 2021-05-19T12:36:27Z amirouche: (call-with-indent ftw) 2021-05-19T12:36:46Z ManDay: i don't want to modify my-rec-function 2021-05-19T12:37:34Z ManDay: `info guile` says "Search failed" in response to /begin0 2021-05-19T12:37:44Z ManDay: Same for prog1 2021-05-19T12:37:47Z wasamasa: it's a trivial macro to write, lol 2021-05-19T12:38:05Z ManDay: wasamasa: yes ofc its trivial 2021-05-19T12:38:17Z wasamasa: have a definition: https://code.call-cc.org/svn/chicken-eggs/release/5/miscmacros/trunk/miscmacros.scm 2021-05-19T12:38:31Z mdhughes: (define (wrap-with-counter proc . args) (lambda (proc args) BEFORESTUFF (apply proc args) AFTERSTUFF)) And then you use that wrapped version instead of my-rec-function. 2021-05-19T12:38:34Z ManDay: wasamasa: that page wants a password 2021-05-19T12:38:35Z wasamasa: uses define-syntax 2021-05-19T12:38:54Z wasamasa: https://anonymous@code.call-cc.org/svn/chicken-eggs/release/5/miscmacros/trunk/miscmacros.scm 2021-05-19T12:39:01Z wasamasa: because fuck browsers 2021-05-19T12:39:06Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:39:13Z wasamasa: who gives you the right to redact credentials from my URL 2021-05-19T12:39:44Z teiresias quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-05-19T12:42:05Z ManDay: mdhughes: ah right, that's a way to make it lazy. yeah that's nicer than a macro in my opinion 2021-05-19T12:42:37Z ManDay: (i no like macros) 2021-05-19T12:42:58Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:43:01Z mdhughes: macros are nice, but I try to do HOF first, then macros if that doesn't work. 2021-05-19T12:43:13Z ManDay: whats HOF? 2021-05-19T12:43:32Z mdhughes: High Order Function (functions that work on functions) 2021-05-19T12:43:43Z ManDay: ah 2021-05-19T12:44:08Z brainfunnel joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:44:11Z Major_Biscuit quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-19T12:44:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:44:27Z ManDay: i guess that HOF approach wouldn't quite work if you needed "args" to be lazy evaluated, too 2021-05-19T12:44:38Z ManDay: but in fact that's not an issue for me (I think) 2021-05-19T12:44:41Z brainfunnel left #scheme 2021-05-19T12:45:13Z tzar_bomba joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:46:31Z ManDay: wasamasa: thanks 2021-05-19T12:47:00Z ManDay: not quite sure what to make of these ## thingies but I guess that can be ignored 2021-05-19T12:47:08Z wasamasa: correct 2021-05-19T12:47:36Z tzar_bomba: was there a discussion what happens next with #scheme in light of https://mniip.com/freenode.txt 2021-05-19T12:47:52Z wasamasa: too early to tell really 2021-05-19T12:47:57Z ecraven: there is a #scheme on libera.chat already, with some people. 2021-05-19T12:48:16Z ecraven: it would be nice if there were *one* place where everybody moved, not multiple... 2021-05-19T12:48:17Z LeoNerd: Word moves quickly on the internet ;) 2021-05-19T12:48:33Z LeoNerd: Prettymuch all of freenode is mass-migrating in a direct 1:1 fashion over to libera.. same names and everything 2021-05-19T12:48:38Z LeoNerd: So that's probably best 2021-05-19T12:49:31Z ChoHag: This ragnarok guy does seem like a bit of a cunt. 2021-05-19T12:49:45Z wasamasa: lawyer, duh 2021-05-19T12:50:03Z ChoHag: Oh really? 2021-05-19T12:50:36Z wasamasa: why else would he keep mentioning giving legal advice for free and doing legal action all the time 2021-05-19T12:50:59Z ChoHag: I just got the impression he wants to flash his cash and ego around. 2021-05-19T12:51:52Z ChoHag: "I halped guys! I'm Mr. Meeseeks!" 2021-05-19T12:51:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-19T12:53:09Z ManDay: is there more on this freenode fallout? first time i've heard of it (i'm not really keeping up to date these days) 2021-05-19T12:53:17Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T12:53:17Z ManDay: *more from an objective source 2021-05-19T12:53:36Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:53:39Z nilgeisw joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:54:41Z wasamasa: too early to tell really 2021-05-19T12:55:18Z wasamasa: there's a bunch of pastebins and IRC logs 2021-05-19T12:56:02Z wasamasa: more objective stuff will follow once the dust has settled down 2021-05-19T12:56:29Z ManDay: ah well, HN has something 2021-05-19T12:56:41Z tinga quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-19T12:56:54Z ManDay: (not that this were objective) 2021-05-19T12:57:05Z tinga joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:57:15Z ahungry joined #scheme 2021-05-19T12:57:47Z link2xt quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-05-19T12:58:10Z tinga quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-19T13:00:32Z tzar_bomba quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-19T13:02:31Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:02:37Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-05-19T13:02:39Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-05-19T13:03:17Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T13:03:36Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:04:47Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T13:14:52Z undvrainbowvita8 quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-05-19T13:16:46Z undvrainbowvita8 joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:20:29Z lortabac left #scheme 2021-05-19T13:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T13:28:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:30:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:35:38Z silasfox quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-19T13:35:48Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:39:17Z some02 joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:39:33Z nabla joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:41:30Z some02 is now known as sudden 2021-05-19T13:42:06Z laxask quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T13:43:58Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T13:45:00Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:45:05Z silasfox quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-19T13:45:15Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:47:26Z sudden quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-19T13:47:44Z laxask joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:48:21Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:52:12Z kopiyka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T13:52:32Z cipherchess left #scheme 2021-05-19T13:52:37Z kopiyka joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:53:34Z ManDay: wasamasa: not sure whether I'm missing something, but begin0 doesn't seem to be exactly what i need (it misses the "after" part while returning the "main" part) 2021-05-19T13:53:40Z ManDay: what is begin0's purpose anyway? 2021-05-19T13:53:54Z wasamasa: check the backlog 2021-05-19T13:54:11Z wasamasa: I never claimed it's exactly what you need 2021-05-19T13:54:17Z wasamasa: just a starting point 2021-05-19T13:54:34Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-19T13:55:08Z siraben: should one still remain calm or 2021-05-19T13:55:18Z siraben: I'm seeing channels completely close up 2021-05-19T13:55:52Z ManDay: wasamasa: I think you misunderstood then, I never needed any help to write the macro 2021-05-19T13:55:52Z wasamasa: such as? 2021-05-19T13:57:02Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-19T13:57:21Z ManDay: siraben: no, panic is the correct way to proceed 2021-05-19T13:57:23Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-05-19T13:57:40Z siraben: ManDay: you're joking! 2021-05-19T13:57:58Z ManDay: siraben: What gave it away?! 2021-05-19T13:58:16Z siraben: panic time 2021-05-19T13:58:26Z ManDay: \o/ .... /o/ 2021-05-19T14:02:49Z ManDay: mdhughes: I've always made a large detour around macros because the first impression that stuck with me was that weird "_" thing (aka "doesn't matter whatever you write there") which just felt... wrong. perhaps there is some deeper logic behind it but it gave me that taste 2021-05-19T14:04:02Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T14:04:07Z nmeum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T14:04:09Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-05-19T14:04:13Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-05-19T14:04:13Z wasamasa: DRY 2021-05-19T14:04:37Z wasamasa: you'd otherwise fill it out with the same thing you wrote a little bit earlier 2021-05-19T14:04:49Z ManDay: DRY? is that an acronym? 2021-05-19T14:05:01Z dpk: seems a bit weird to ignore a whole language feature because of a minor (and optional) syntactic convention 2021-05-19T14:05:23Z ManDay: dpk: i'm not saying that my view is rational. i'm just explaining why I never sought close contact with macros 2021-05-19T14:06:07Z ManDay: but this is more than minor in my opinion. if your language grammar demands a redundant token, something is off 2021-05-19T14:06:15Z jao joined #scheme 2021-05-19T14:06:17Z wasamasa: Don't Repeat Yourself 2021-05-19T14:06:34Z wasamasa: so you consider everything redundant off 2021-05-19T14:06:42Z wasamasa: be it in nature, logistics or scheme 2021-05-19T14:07:08Z ManDay: would you stop the flaming already... i'm not trying to win an argument 2021-05-19T14:07:17Z ManDay: i'm just describing my impression 2021-05-19T14:07:27Z wasamasa: I mean, I don't blame you, the same mistake has been made with logistics and as a result of hyperoptimization, there has been a costly freight ship delay 2021-05-19T14:08:29Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-19T14:08:38Z nmeum joined #scheme 2021-05-19T14:09:09Z wasamasa: one billion US bux 2021-05-19T14:10:00Z ManDay: not sure what you're going on about 2021-05-19T14:10:38Z wasamasa: ever heard about this suez canal thing 2021-05-19T14:11:29Z Vultyre left #scheme 2021-05-19T14:12:27Z wasamasa: anyway, looking at syntax-rules, the redundancy is not worth bothering with 2021-05-19T14:12:34Z wasamasa: it happens for the special case of a single definition 2021-05-19T14:12:51Z wasamasa: if you have multiple definitions, then it's warranted 2021-05-19T14:13:00Z ManDay: wasamasa: i didn't know that. thanks for explaining 2021-05-19T14:13:08Z ManDay: makes me feel better wrt macros 2021-05-19T14:13:16Z wasamasa: complicating the syntax-rules mechanics for that special case isn't really worth it 2021-05-19T14:13:27Z ManDay: i am daccord 2021-05-19T14:13:28Z wasamasa: they're already complicated enough 2021-05-19T14:13:43Z mason left #scheme 2021-05-19T14:14:00Z wasamasa: still, considering how common a single definition is, I occasionally forget what's supposed to be there instead of _ 2021-05-19T14:33:48Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-19T14:36:03Z nabla quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T14:41:57Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-05-19T14:53:40Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-19T14:57:56Z Zipheir: As usual, everything happens when I'm asleep. 2021-05-19T14:58:54Z kluk joined #scheme 2021-05-19T14:59:21Z amirouche: ^^' 2021-05-19T14:59:43Z amirouche: Zipheir: My company offers visa sponsorship to come to France :) 2021-05-19T15:01:31Z dpk wonders who would choose France as a country to move to in 2021 2021-05-19T15:01:48Z dpk: not that Germany is looking much better at the moment, mind, but in 2014 when i came here it seemed like a reasonable bet 2021-05-19T15:01:57Z taylan: ManDay: macros are daunting at first, both syntax-rules and syntax-case, but once you start to get the hand of them everything falls into place and makes sense :) 2021-05-19T15:02:37Z taylan: ManDay: in the case of syntax-rules, the _ is because you're doing pattern-matching on the whole macro-call expression, and the first position will necessarily be the name of the macro being called anyway 2021-05-19T15:03:53Z taylan: I like to use the syntax for pattern variables to make syntax-rules more readable 2021-05-19T15:04:36Z dpk: (admittedly, with the slightly different priorities i'd put into considering the question today, i would probably have chosen somewhere else even at the time, if that makes sense) 2021-05-19T15:05:20Z taylan: the following two are equivalent: 2021-05-19T15:05:22Z taylan: (define-syntax when (syntax-rules ((_ * ...) (if (begin * ...) (values))))) 2021-05-19T15:05:26Z taylan: (define-syntax when (syntax-rules ((when * ...) (if (begin * ...) (values))))) 2021-05-19T15:05:36Z ManDay: taylan: right. nevertheless, I think there is no disagreement that if it can be done w/o macros (nicely), it should be done without macros 2021-05-19T15:05:39Z raingloom left #scheme 2021-05-19T15:05:47Z taylan: ManDay: yes definitely 2021-05-19T15:05:47Z ManDay: and since I'm writing purely functional, this is always the case for me 2021-05-19T15:05:58Z dpk: taylan: nice, but conflicts with the convention of using <> to enclose the names of record types 2021-05-19T15:06:01Z ManDay: just for my debugging stuff (which is not functional), I ended up there 2021-05-19T15:06:29Z taylan: dpk: doesn't really matter IMO because record names are rarely ever used outside their definition 2021-05-19T15:06:40Z ManDay: taylan: heh, that's nice. I use <...> in comments to denote variables, so it fits my style :> 2021-05-19T15:06:47Z dpk: (arguably, at least. we don't have many other naming conventions which are used in completely different scenarios) 2021-05-19T15:07:16Z Zipheir: taylan: Except in pattern-matching. 2021-05-19T15:07:52Z dpk: taylan: depends if we get a procedural record-type interface in R7, i guess ;-) 2021-05-19T15:07:58Z taylan: Zipheir: you mean like (? x y z) in the commonly used 'match' macro e.g. (ice-9 match) in Guile, right? 2021-05-19T15:08:47Z Zipheir: Yes. It's in SRFI 204 now, too. 2021-05-19T15:09:59Z dpk: SRFI 204 appears to be stuck at draft #10 2021-05-19T15:10:26Z dpk: but i guess there's not much Arthur can do in cases like these (see also SRFI 211) except wield the stick of poking and try to get people to finish their specs 2021-05-19T15:11:42Z taylan: so many new SRFIs... 2021-05-19T15:14:13Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T15:15:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T15:15:03Z Zipheir: Yeah, it would be a shame if 204 got withdrawn. 2021-05-19T15:16:26Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T15:18:24Z Zipheir: Given how many different versions of the WCS matcher are floating around, I was glad to see someone make an attempt to standardize. 2021-05-19T15:19:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-19T15:22:04Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-19T15:24:21Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-19T15:25:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T15:30:42Z Zipheir: Having caught myself up a bit on the Freenode situation, I'd like to ask the channel about the future of #scheme. 2021-05-19T15:31:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-19T15:32:17Z wasamasa: that's something for chanops to decide, not a mob 2021-05-19T15:32:37Z dpk: the Libera Chat #scheme is currently being spammed by people informing me that the channel has moved to irc.freenode.net 2021-05-19T15:32:55Z Zipheir: I don't think of #scheme as a mob. I trust you guys, and would like to find consensus. 2021-05-19T15:32:58Z wasamasa: welcome to peak IRC 2021-05-19T15:33:04Z dpk: i wasn't previously aware that there are freenode partisans out there 2021-05-19T15:33:21Z wasamasa: if you want drama, it's out there 2021-05-19T15:33:22Z Zipheir: dpk: Thanks. 2021-05-19T15:34:00Z Zipheir: I admit that I'm a little skeptical of libera.chat, since it seems to have popped up overnight. 2021-05-19T15:34:05Z dpk: Zipheir: i'm already there; several of my channels here have half-hearted contingents on Libera Chat 2021-05-19T15:34:23Z dpk: yeah, they didn't handle this very well publicity-wise 2021-05-19T15:34:55Z Zipheir: dpk: OK, how does the situation look there? 2021-05-19T15:34:56Z dpk: first by leaking their planned protest early, then by trying to launch a competitor to the biggest IRC network in existence in one go 2021-05-19T15:35:07Z dpk: as i say, currently being spammed 2021-05-19T15:35:35Z Zipheir: Indeed. 2021-05-19T15:36:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T15:36:16Z dpk: i also don't quite understand what the supposed 'owner' of Freenode is doing that's got people all upset 2021-05-19T15:36:24Z dpk: the staff claim that he 'bought' the company 2021-05-19T15:36:37Z siraben: Can confirm, it's being spammed right now. 2021-05-19T15:36:48Z dpk: but Freenode Ltd is a limited by guarantee not-for-profit, not limited by shares, so you can't buy it 2021-05-19T15:37:07Z siraben: I have an account over there, but I intend to stay connected to the Freenode bridge for a while 2021-05-19T15:37:25Z dpk: it does have a proposed winding-up order, but closing Freenode Ltd down is not consistent with what the staff claim 2021-05-19T15:37:40Z wasamasa: it's not closed down, lol 2021-05-19T15:37:47Z wasamasa: it will be used as a brand asset 2021-05-19T15:38:02Z wasamasa: that's what they disagree with, being idealistic volunteers 2021-05-19T15:38:12Z Zipheir: dpk: I too am unsure of what this "takeover" is about, but the resignation of all of Freenode's staff means it's currently a zombie. 2021-05-19T15:38:12Z wasamasa: https://www.irc.com/lets-take-irc-further 2021-05-19T15:38:16Z dpk: "Active proposal to strike off" — https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/10308021 2021-05-19T15:39:58Z dpk: although it appears that might be Companies House wanting to strike them off for not filing properly. meh, whatever 2021-05-19T15:40:14Z dpk: what Zipheir says is true, but i'm sure they'll find no end of useful idiots willing to fill in the staff positions 2021-05-19T15:40:36Z dpk: governance of Freenode might be about to go from bad to worse if a bunch of inexperienced people suddenly get oper status, though 2021-05-19T15:40:48Z Zipheir: Thus my inclination is to be patient. 2021-05-19T15:41:05Z wasamasa: https://imperialfamily.com/ 2021-05-19T15:41:08Z Zipheir: If it gets bad, there are many alternative networks. 2021-05-19T15:41:10Z wasamasa: freenode is listed as a brand there 2021-05-19T15:41:21Z wasamasa: so is this IRC.com thing 2021-05-19T15:41:29Z wasamasa: and a bunch of others nobody knows 2021-05-19T15:41:43Z Zipheir: IRC is such a hip, trendy brand asset in 2021... :) 2021-05-19T15:42:00Z wasamasa: all is fair to get sweet VC money 2021-05-19T15:42:24Z dpk: yeah, i pessimistically suspect that the communities which are kind of half there now (including #scheme) will probably continue being half there, then everyone will forget about it gradually and just stick with Freenode because inertia 2021-05-19T15:42:51Z dpk: the optimistic version of that is that more communities make the jump over time, as the Libera Chat versions gather critical mass 2021-05-19T15:43:16Z Zipheir: Shall we try to get control of #scheme on Libera, in case it does go somewhere? 2021-05-19T15:43:33Z dpk: taylan has already registered it with Libera Chat's ChanServ 2021-05-19T15:44:00Z Zipheir: Great. 2021-05-19T15:45:28Z taylan: I muted unregistered users by the way since there was spam 2021-05-19T15:45:43Z Zipheir: Wise. 2021-05-19T15:47:03Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-19T15:49:55Z pyro_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T15:53:24Z killsushi joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:00:35Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-19T16:02:02Z brendyyn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T16:06:13Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-19T16:10:01Z irc_user joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:10:30Z ggoes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-19T16:10:56Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:11:11Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zipheir 2021-05-19T16:14:39Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:16:58Z ChanServ has set mode -o Zipheir 2021-05-19T16:19:26Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-19T16:21:40Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:32:18Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-19T16:33:02Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T16:33:58Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T16:37:17Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-19T16:39:34Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-19T16:40:41Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:41:10Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:42:29Z Noisytoot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T16:43:38Z siiky quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-19T16:44:20Z hugo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-19T16:45:25Z siiky joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:46:48Z oldf8l is now known as f8l 2021-05-19T16:50:29Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:51:31Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my Guix System — https://guix.gnu.org) 2021-05-19T16:51:43Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:54:02Z phillbush quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-19T16:54:23Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:54:36Z nckx joined #scheme 2021-05-19T16:59:22Z killsushi_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:00:55Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my Guix System — https://guix.gnu.org) 2021-05-19T17:01:15Z aukkras left #scheme 2021-05-19T17:01:49Z nckx joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:02:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:03:01Z killsushi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-05-19T17:03:12Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:04:28Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:06:35Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:08:13Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:09:58Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-19T17:10:04Z retropikzel left #scheme 2021-05-19T17:10:52Z remexre left #scheme 2021-05-19T17:13:11Z ChoHag: The real question is, did/will they fuck up the bureaucracy again? I'm voting for yes. 2021-05-19T17:15:10Z ChoHag: And given that, perhaps a home run by competent people? 2021-05-19T17:15:36Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T17:15:44Z Zipheir: I'm not very concerned about that question (WRT libera.chat, I assume) yet. I'm wondering what the new Freenode overlords (if any) will do. 2021-05-19T17:16:13Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:16:39Z Zipheir: OFTC has been around for a while and seems to be competently managed. There's a #scheme channel there; totally empty, but owned by someone. 2021-05-19T17:16:58Z ChoHag: Probably scheming. 2021-05-19T17:29:54Z _noblegas joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:30:33Z Zipheir: In any case, we're here, we're on Libera (if that takes off), whatever happens, #scheme continues. 2021-05-19T17:35:59Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-05-19T17:48:16Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-05-19T17:50:56Z theruran quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-19T17:59:13Z emanuele6 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T17:59:56Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T18:00:16Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-19T18:00:21Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:00:34Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:01:17Z emanuele6 joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:01:28Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:02:19Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-05-19T18:02:21Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-05-19T18:06:02Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:07:59Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-19T18:08:25Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:08:54Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T18:09:18Z amirouche: apparantly that is the head of the staff team that went rogue and sold freenode. 2021-05-19T18:09:53Z amirouche: that sort of thing can always happen when a single person has everything. 2021-05-19T18:11:03Z amirouche: some people setup bridges between libera and freenode 2021-05-19T18:15:44Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:16:00Z Zipheir: amirouche: This is the best summary I've read so far https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bdd66b8f491 2021-05-19T18:16:04Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my Guix System — https://guix.gnu.org) 2021-05-19T18:17:24Z nckx joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:19:10Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T18:19:43Z amirouche: who is andrew to freenode? 2021-05-19T18:20:36Z wasamasa: rasengan 2021-05-19T18:20:36Z amirouche: ok that is nobody. That is christel that sold freenode. 2021-05-19T18:20:53Z amirouche: maybe in good faith to help freenode conf. 2021-05-19T18:21:28Z ChoHag: I'm calling him ragnarok for lolz. 2021-05-19T18:21:36Z pinoaffe quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-05-19T18:21:53Z ChoHag: Or is that lulz? That one was after my time. 2021-05-19T18:22:17Z cer-0 joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:24:58Z pinoaffe joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:25:57Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-19T18:29:07Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:29:11Z jcowan: And rasengan who bought it 2021-05-19T18:31:12Z klovett__ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:31:34Z Lysandros quit (Quit: brb) 2021-05-19T18:32:22Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-19T18:32:33Z klovet___ joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:33:03Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:33:13Z zap1 is now known as zzappie 2021-05-19T18:33:21Z catonano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-19T18:33:46Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:34:11Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-19T18:34:29Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:36:00Z klovett__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-19T18:39:37Z irc_user quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-19T18:39:41Z jcowan: And if you ask "Who is rasengan", one correct answer is "the ci-devant Crown Prince of the Korean Empire" 2021-05-19T18:40:14Z Zipheir: Apparently so... 2021-05-19T18:45:06Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:46:11Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:52:28Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-19T18:55:10Z snits quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-19T19:07:16Z Noisytoot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-19T19:07:50Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:09:57Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-19T19:10:43Z Cathrinus quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...) 2021-05-19T19:10:52Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:11:07Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:12:57Z Lysandros joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:12:58Z Lysandros quit (Changing host) 2021-05-19T19:12:58Z Lysandros joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:18:05Z evdubs_ is now known as evdubs 2021-05-19T19:18:39Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-19T19:19:03Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:20:52Z groovy: for sicp ex1.17 it gives a procedure for computing multiplication as a series of additions. and then tasks you with rewriting it using procedures called double and halve 2021-05-19T19:21:23Z groovy: i did this and got https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6cmOxJ6H/ 2021-05-19T19:22:02Z groovy: however i see a lot of answers are https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qiHq4B8Z/ 2021-05-19T19:22:11Z Zipheir: groovy: Does your version work? 2021-05-19T19:22:19Z groovy: it seems to yes 2021-05-19T19:22:52Z catonano quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-19T19:23:17Z xaotuk joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:23:27Z groovy: and i think it should still be logarithmic wrt to b i just don't understand why the other answers are calling fast mult inside of double instead of my way 2021-05-19T19:23:41Z Zipheir: groovy: Your version is equivalent. It just takes one additional step in the case b = 1. 2021-05-19T19:25:32Z Zipheir: Ah, no, there's a difference. 2021-05-19T19:28:18Z Zipheir: groovy: I had to look at it carefully, but it is indeed equivalent. The more common solution is recursive; yours is tail-recursive. 2021-05-19T19:28:46Z groovy: what is the diff between rec vs tail rec 2021-05-19T19:28:51Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:29:28Z dpk: groovy: see section 1.2.1 of SICP 2021-05-19T19:29:45Z Zipheir: groovy: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-11.html#%_sec_1.2.1 2021-05-19T19:29:49Z Zipheir: jinx 2021-05-19T19:29:50Z dpk: you've written a version that's like fact-iter while the more common version is like factorial 2021-05-19T19:30:35Z Noisytoot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-19T19:30:53Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:31:24Z dpk: i.e. yours is actually better ;-) 2021-05-19T19:31:57Z hugo joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:32:14Z groovy: ok cool dpk Zipheir tyvm 2021-05-19T19:32:22Z Zipheir: Also, https://xkcd.com/1270/ 2021-05-19T19:32:40Z dpk: haha, the tooltip text 2021-05-19T19:33:05Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-19T19:33:26Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-19T19:36:57Z dpk: not quite as good as what i think is the original version of that quip (Objective-C combines the memory safety of C with the blazing speed of Smalltalk) 2021-05-19T19:37:13Z dpk: although i would be interested to know what the actual original version is 2021-05-19T19:37:13Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - 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seconds) 2021-05-20T06:37:38Z aoh left #scheme 2021-05-20T06:42:11Z kluk quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-20T06:43:08Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-20T06:48:49Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2021-05-20T06:52:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-20T06:57:49Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-20T07:12:01Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-20T07:13:18Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-20T07:13:18Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-20T07:13:18Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-20T07:14:42Z amirouche: R6https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/issues/574 2021-05-20T07:14:52Z amirouche: R6.1RS => https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/issues/574 2021-05-20T07:17:35Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-20T07:17:57Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-20T07:20:41Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-20T07:20:49Z catonano quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-20T07:29:16Z wasamasa: coronation, hrhr 2021-05-20T07:33:01Z dpk: "The Scheme community is not in a state of chaos. It consists of four well-defined groups going in four well-defined directions." 2021-05-20T07:34:26Z ChoHag: Surely there's more well-defined directions than that? 2021-05-20T07:35:31Z Balooga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-20T07:36:27Z Boarders quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-20T07:37:26Z Balooga joined #scheme 2021-05-20T07:37:29Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-05-20T07:37:41Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-20T07:48:26Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-05-20T07:49:37Z mdhughes: If we can get 4 more it'll be an 8-pointed star of chaos, which fits better. 2021-05-20T07:50:40Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-20T07:52:27Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-20T07:53:02Z thevishy joined #scheme 2021-05-20T07:56:06Z taylan joined #scheme 2021-05-20T08:02:15Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-20T08:02:28Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-20T08:04:59Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-20T08:05:29Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-20T08:05:29Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-20T08:05:51Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-20T08:08:06Z catonano: are there any plans to move this channel to irc.libera.chat ? 2021-05-20T08:09:25Z ecraven: it already exists there 2021-05-20T08:10:16Z ChoHag: The internet can actually maintain both channels *at the same time*! 2021-05-20T08:10:45Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-20T08:11:29Z thevishy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-20T08:16:13Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-05-20T08:19:11Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-20T08:20:05Z catonano: ecraven: ah ! Thanks ! 2021-05-20T08:20:27Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-20T08:20:27Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-20T08:20:27Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-20T08:24:12Z Kooda left #scheme 2021-05-20T08:27:47Z ecraven: ;) 2021-05-20T08:30:25Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-20T08:42:43Z lockywolf: I think one is fine as long as it is working. 2021-05-20T08:43:53Z lockywolf: Which groups are going into the 4 directions in Scheme? 2021-05-20T08:44:06Z lockywolf: R6rs, r7rs, Racket, and? 2021-05-20T08:44:13Z ecraven left #scheme 2021-05-20T08:44:22Z lockywolf: r4rs? 2021-05-20T08:45:49Z dpk: it's a reference to a quote about the MacLisp community during the process that led to the development of Common Lisp 2021-05-20T08:54:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-20T08:57:13Z amirouche: s/maintain/sustain/ 2021-05-20T08:57:32Z amirouche: oh ah 2021-05-20T08:58:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-20T08:58:46Z wasamasa: you forget about r5rs folks who're happy where they are 2021-05-20T09:03:26Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-20T09:11:10Z foof: R7 small is such a tiny update to R5 with huge interoperability benefits, it's silly to stick with R5. 2021-05-20T09:12:43Z wasamasa: sure, if you already had a module system and records and all that jazz 2021-05-20T09:13:57Z dpk: is there any R5 implementation with no module and record systems whatsoever? 2021-05-20T09:14:59Z foof: MIT didn't have a module system to speak of, I believe. Gambit only had namespaces and optionally syntax-case modules. 2021-05-20T09:16:09Z foof: Everyone supports records. They can even be implemented portably. 2021-05-20T09:16:12Z wasamasa: GRASS 2021-05-20T09:16:27Z wasamasa: not all scheme implementations aim to be used by other people, lol 2021-05-20T09:19:23Z dpk: foof: doesn't R7 or SRFI 9 technically require that record type instances be disjoint? 2021-05-20T09:19:49Z dpk: i.e. it's wrong for (vector? some-record-type-instance) to answer #t? 2021-05-20T09:20:07Z foof: yes, and with a module system you can sweep that distinction under the rug :) 2021-05-20T09:20:39Z dpk: hehe, fair 2021-05-20T09:30:04Z thevishy joined #scheme 2021-05-20T09:54:47Z ecraven joined #scheme 2021-05-20T09:56:36Z Kooda1 joined #scheme 2021-05-20T10:17:29Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-05-20T10:19:48Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-20T10:22:51Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-20T10:23:09Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-20T10:24:05Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-20T10:24:05Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-20T10:24:05Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-20T10:29:32Z taylan: indeed, r7rs is basically the new r5rs as far as I'm concerned. there's a few understandable points of critique also though, like the almost complete disregard of r6rs compatibility. 2021-05-20T10:29:55Z xkapastel joined #scheme 2021-05-20T10:30:52Z dpk: arguably the compatibility requirements imposed by R6RS are so high that no subsequent specification of R7's goals (namely, to accommodate existing implementations better than R6 did) could achieve better than R7 actually did 2021-05-20T10:33:22Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-20T10:43:17Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-20T10:43:39Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-20T10:45:17Z amirouche: what is not compatible with R6RS? outside the define-library? 2021-05-20T10:46:06Z amirouche: Maybe it is R6RS MUST slang then. 2021-05-20T10:49:13Z amirouche: ... in other words it may be more fuzzy to write a R7RS program or library. I think about "It is an error" and no official test suite. 2021-05-20T10:50:23Z amirouche: ... but it is harder to be R6RS compliant since R6RS makes many thing required. 2021-05-20T10:55:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-20T10:59:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-20T11:03:17Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-20T11:03:34Z mdhughes: I dunno what that "MUSTard" thing is about, people who didn't grow up reading RFCs and IETF documents are weirdos. 2021-05-20T11:04:16Z Kooda1 quit (Quit: issued !quit command) 2021-05-20T11:04:22Z ChoHag: /24 2021-05-20T11:05:26Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-20T11:06:48Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-05-20T11:08:22Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-20T11:08:46Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-20T11:13:17Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-20T11:25:06Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-20T11:26:46Z topoi_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-20T11:27:06Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-05-20T11:29:27Z thevishy quit 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2021-05-20T14:50:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-20T14:51:35Z nmeum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-20T14:52:59Z jealousmonk_ is now known as jealousmonk 2021-05-20T14:53:18Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-20T14:54:35Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-20T14:54:35Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-05-20T14:54:35Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-05-20T15:03:05Z zzappie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-20T15:03:24Z zzappie joined #scheme 2021-05-20T15:04:16Z nckx left #scheme 2021-05-20T15:08:43Z oldf8l is now known as f8l 2021-05-20T15:09:05Z jcowan: I am now CCBW for not only R7RS-large but also libera.chat#scheme 2021-05-20T15:11:33Z zzappie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-20T15:12:50Z aeth: what about ##scheme ###scheme and ####scheme though 2021-05-20T15:13:21Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-20T15:13:40Z jcowan: One or two #s is the limit, I believe 2021-05-20T15:13:47Z aeth: ah 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thinks they want to stay on this network, a word of caution: they took my nickname away. I can't swap to imode. I've had this nick for years. 2021-05-20T15:38:33Z imode1: I called out Lee, and his response was to blacklist my nickname. 2021-05-20T15:38:37Z eddof13 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-05-20T15:39:27Z jcowan: DO NOT complain to the New People's IRC Regime: in Imperial Korea, crown prince bottles YOU! 2021-05-20T15:39:55Z jcowan: anyhow, I shouldn't have sent that message to #scheme at all 2021-05-20T15:40:50Z fgudin_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-20T15:40:52Z jcowan: In addition to calling him "ragnarok", which is not mine, I think will use "Imperial Korea" for freenode 2021-05-20T15:42:59Z fgudin_ joined #scheme 2021-05-20T15:45:00Z rgherdt_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-20T15:47:02Z imode1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-20T15:47:16Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-20T15:47:58Z wasamasa: so that's the real threat of staying here, huh 2021-05-20T15:48:05Z wasamasa: I know someone who didn't get their nick for reasons 2021-05-20T15:48:11Z wasamasa: but this is just petty 2021-05-20T15:50:21Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-05-20T15:53:44Z rgherdt left #scheme 2021-05-20T15:55:26Z ChoHag: The Democratic People's Peer-to-peer Republic of Virtual Imperial Korea, surely? 2021-05-20T15:55:36Z ChoHag: No sorry that'd be The Virtually Democratic People's Peer-to-peer Republic of Imperial Korea. 2021-05-20T15:58:59Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-20T15:59:30Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-20T15:59:38Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-05-20T16:00:18Z eddof13 joined #scheme 2021-05-20T16:00:26Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-20T16:00:58Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-20T16:01:20Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-20T16:10:17Z wklew quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-05-20T16:15:47Z copec quit (Quit: checkity check out.) 2021-05-20T16:18:50Z copec joined #scheme 2021-05-20T16:21:57Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-20T16:22:57Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-05-20T16:42:10Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-05-20T16:43:51Z jobol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-20T16:49:47Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-05-20T16:50:24Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-20T16:53:17Z jxy quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-20T17:02:22Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-20T17:04:50Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-20T17:06:52Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-05-20T17:06:54Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-20T17:14:43Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-05-20T17:18:05Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-05-20T17:28:59Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-20T17:31:11Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-20T17:42:02Z tfb joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:03:51Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:05:50Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-05-20T18:11:29Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-20T18:12:04Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:17:17Z nilgeisw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-20T18:22:20Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:22:50Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:24:18Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:25:55Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:26:18Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-20T18:27:12Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:29:49Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-20T18:34:42Z imode1 joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:35:24Z mdhughes: Well, I'm shutting off freenode. See you in libera! 2021-05-20T18:35:29Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-20T18:35:33Z mdhughes quit 2021-05-20T18:36:06Z manumanumanu left #scheme 2021-05-20T18:37:13Z imode1 is now known as imode 2021-05-20T18:37:46Z evdubs__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-20T18:37:48Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-20T18:40:40Z amirouche: Yeah, I am also on libera but FOMO 2021-05-20T18:43:05Z Zipheir: This is the only Freenode channel I still have open. 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2021-05-21T16:36:27Z mjsir911 quit (Quit: Goodbye, World!) 2021-05-21T16:36:49Z mjsir911 joined #scheme 2021-05-21T16:51:50Z masoudd_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-21T16:56:23Z mjsir911 quit (Quit: Goodbye, World!) 2021-05-21T16:56:44Z mjsir911 joined #scheme 2021-05-21T17:27:48Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-05-21T17:32:46Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-21T17:38:30Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-21T17:39:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-21T17:42:45Z ChoHag: I don't know about "the". 2021-05-21T17:43:51Z ChoHag: I haven't touched it for a couple of weeks now though, I've been working on my nethack score. 2021-05-21T17:45:58Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-21T17:46:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:08:05Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-21T18:09:50Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:11:44Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-21T18:12:05Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:15:26Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-21T18:16:27Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-21T18:16:50Z amirouche: I read there is something called 'operative' in Kernel language, is that what you came with the idea of the system you build? 2021-05-21T18:16:59Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:17:18Z amirouche: ref: https://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html 2021-05-21T18:17:24Z amirouche: fexprs related. 2021-05-21T18:18:09Z amirouche: I am trying to find a naive solution to implement macros in ruse, see what I end up with. 2021-05-21T18:20:15Z xlei left #scheme 2021-05-21T18:21:18Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-21T18:21:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-21T18:22:15Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-21T18:27:33Z coffeeturtle joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:27:38Z hiruji quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-21T18:28:04Z hiruji joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:30:22Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:31:18Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-21T18:34:01Z coffeeturtle quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-05-21T18:39:18Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:51:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:53:31Z Noisytoot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-05-21T18:55:40Z ChoHag: Yes it's partially an implementation of that. 2021-05-21T18:55:54Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-05-21T18:55:58Z amirouche: hmmmm... you could say that upfront :) 2021-05-21T18:56:15Z amirouche: maybe you wrote that but I did not notice. 2021-05-21T18:56:48Z amirouche: if you think R7RS is slow. Look at RnRK where n=-1 an not finished yet. 2021-05-21T18:56:52Z amirouche: (the above link) 2021-05-21T18:57:00Z ChoHag: I'm someone asked that before. 2021-05-21T18:57:05Z ChoHag: +sure 2021-05-21T18:57:19Z ChoHag: Yeah it's not exactly speedy. 2021-05-21T18:57:51Z amirouche: what is not speedy? 2021-05-21T18:58:03Z ChoHag: Kernel. 2021-05-21T18:58:14Z ChoHag: Although I realise you meant the standardisation process not the implementation. 2021-05-21T18:58:50Z amirouche: Indeed I mean the standardisation process. 2021-05-21T19:00:16Z ChoHag: I don't know whether to get back to work on that or get drunk. 2021-05-21T19:00:39Z amirouche: The problem I have is that with Scheme per RnRS is that macros are complicated to implement while being content adressable, otherwise said quote, quasiquote and unquote would have widly different behavior in my system compared to regular Scheme. 2021-05-21T19:01:03Z ChoHag: I finally worked out and wrote down how to write the next tests, so a fortnight playing games has paid off. Now I just need to SMOP. 2021-05-21T19:01:15Z amirouche: Now, if it is slow that another big problem. 2021-05-21T19:01:38Z amirouche: I wonder whether fexprs are related to lisp-3 2021-05-21T19:02:03Z ChoHag: What do you mean content addressable? 2021-05-21T19:03:36Z amirouche: hmm.. I think I never explained that correctly. 2021-05-21T19:03:53Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-21T19:03:54Z amirouche: the implementation is difficult to explain. 2021-05-21T19:04:18Z amirouche: but the immediate consequence is that you can download a procedure with its hash. 2021-05-21T19:04:26Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-21T19:04:41Z amirouche: where the hash is computed recursively. 2021-05-21T19:04:49Z amirouche: over the procedure definition. 2021-05-21T19:04:54Z ChoHag: ISTR that I started writing this (I resisted worrying about operatives for ages) because I needed it to implement the macro system. 2021-05-21T19:06:09Z amirouche: eventually (define-macro (frog body) '(foobar body)) can no be replaced according to the lexical scope where frog is defined. 2021-05-21T19:06:29Z amirouche: also, it does not help there is no files in my system. 2021-05-21T19:06:53Z amirouche: I mean, there might be files, but what matter is the procedure definition with bound free variables. 2021-05-21T19:07:02Z ChoHag: "can no[t] be replaced"? As in things which are defined that close over that definition don't lose that definition? 2021-05-21T19:08:14Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-05-21T19:08:14Z amirouche: if define-macro is inside a toplevel define, the scope of the procedure might define all the need forms. But not in the case of top-level variables. 2021-05-21T19:08:16Z ChoHag: Aren't variables bound _or_ free? 2021-05-21T19:08:20Z ChoHag: xor, even. 2021-05-21T19:08:45Z gwatt: yes. It depends on the scope you're inspecting 2021-05-21T19:08:48Z amirouche: top level define do not have an environment, there is no library / module system. 2021-05-21T19:09:24Z ChoHag: There must be something like an environment in order for there to be a top level. 2021-05-21T19:09:28Z amirouche: every free-variable in a top-level define is statically bound. 2021-05-21T19:09:38Z amirouche: hence they are not free variables. 2021-05-21T19:09:52Z amirouche: I mean in the text editor they appear like a free variable. 2021-05-21T19:09:58Z ChoHag: Every free variable in a top level is not a free variable? 2021-05-21T19:09:58Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-05-21T19:10:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-21T19:10:16Z amirouche: hm sorry. I will retry from scratch. 2021-05-21T19:10:48Z ChoHag: * A teddy bear momentarily appears where ChoHag was. 2021-05-21T19:11:14Z amirouche: imagine an empty text file, where the only definition is (define frob (lambda (a b) (fobar (foobar a b) 42))) 2021-05-21T19:11:36Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-21T19:11:46Z amirouche: without more information provided to the editor, lambda and fobar and foobar are free variables hence should be provided by the environment 2021-05-21T19:11:56Z amirouche: does it make sens? 2021-05-21T19:12:06Z ChoHag: And define. 2021-05-21T19:12:15Z amirouche: yes define too. 2021-05-21T19:12:40Z ChoHag: With you so far. 2021-05-21T19:12:43Z amirouche: so let's assume define and lambda are special forms that can not be shadowed etc... 2021-05-21T19:12:50Z amirouche: remain fobar and foobar. 2021-05-21T19:13:05Z ChoHag: You want to be able to make them also unshadowable? 2021-05-21T19:13:05Z amirouche: let's forget about macros, and image they are procedures. 2021-05-21T19:13:29Z ChoHag: Oh that's easy to do, they are. 2021-05-21T19:13:46Z amirouche: what fobar and foobar reference is set by the user 2021-05-21T19:14:19Z amirouche: but not with an import inside the same file. 2021-05-21T19:14:50Z amirouche: basically, fobar links to a hash that is the recursive hash of the definition of fobar. 2021-05-21T19:15:01Z amirouche: fobar is just an alias for a hash. 2021-05-21T19:15:52Z ChoHag: So given ( (define foobar ...) (define fobar ...) (import )), and has an (import ) before or after (define frob ...), so ... what? 2021-05-21T19:17:34Z ChoHag: That's not being dismissive, I'm trying to get beyond "basicaly ...". 2021-05-21T19:17:44Z amirouche: yes, the interaction with the editor is that you do need to import, but still need to specify what fobar and foobar are bound to. 2021-05-21T19:18:14Z amirouche: the goal is to sperate the definitions of procedures from their textual representation to be able to translate identifiers. 2021-05-21T19:19:01Z amirouche: and macros work with identifiers (that are lexically scoped). Whereas my system works with procedure content. 2021-05-21T19:19:21Z amirouche: you do NOT need to import. 2021-05-21T19:19:37Z amirouche: that is the most important feature: the goal is to sperate the definitions of procedures from their textual representation to be able to translate identifiers. 2021-05-21T19:20:55Z amirouche: eventually, it will be possible for some one to write a procedure in french, and some one else to download that procedure and have all identifiers in english without requiring the user to tranlate it themself. 2021-05-21T19:21:10Z amirouche: except if the identifier in french was never translated to english. 2021-05-21T19:22:26Z amirouche: What unison does is that the code is content-addressable, you like like gambit does, send a procedure over the network, and the remote machine will download the procedure. (idk how closure works in unison) 2021-05-21T19:23:09Z amirouche: but it is controlled environment, hence you can say "in this code base, that hash HASH1 is associated with that procedure definition BODY... 2021-05-21T19:23:35Z amirouche: and that HASH1 is aliased NAME1. 2021-05-21T19:24:17Z amirouche: but in my system, that is backed by p2p network, you can force every user to name the same procedure the same way (except if you rely on a blockchain, otherwise somekind of p2p dns) 2021-05-21T19:24:36Z amirouche: can NOT force. I promise to re-read before posting. 2021-05-21T19:25:28Z amirouche: so, content-addressable code in a open-network without a dns, code can have several identifiers. 2021-05-21T19:25:35Z amirouche: aliasing the same hash. 2021-05-21T19:29:01Z ChoHag: So procedures will have a globally unique identifier? 2021-05-21T19:34:11Z amirouche: the hash is unique, not the identifier. 2021-05-21T19:39:38Z amirouche: procedures will have a globally unique identifier that is hash. but not a globally unique identifier that is a symbol. 2021-05-21T19:41:32Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-05-21T19:42:21Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-05-21T19:42:38Z imode joined #scheme 2021-05-21T19:42:54Z silasfox quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-05-21T19:44:06Z edgar-rft quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-21T19:45:03Z silasfox joined #scheme 2021-05-21T19:45:31Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-05-21T19:46:03Z ChoHag: The hash is the identifier I was referring to. 2021-05-21T19:54:17Z ChoHag: I think I understand it but I don't get it. 2021-05-21T19:54:29Z ChoHag: Compilers anonymise functions' symbols all the time. 2021-05-21T19:55:04Z ChoHag: You uniquely hash the result and ... what's next? 2021-05-21T20:01:33Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-05-21T20:07:56Z amirouche: what is hashed is not the result of the compiler. 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In the days before mass literacy, if a family had one book, it was the Bible; if two books, they were the Bible and the P.P. 2021-05-22T01:19:16Z jcowan: Consequently its influence has been massive 2021-05-22T01:37:07Z edgar-rft: It must have such a massive influence that I never heard of it until now 2021-05-22T01:57:58Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-22T01:58:31Z jcowan: Perhaps you have heard of Family Guy ("Peter's Progress") or Slaughterhouse-Five, though? 2021-05-22T01:59:23Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-22T01:59:24Z frost-lab quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-22T02:00:53Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-22T02:11:32Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-22T02:11:54Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-22T03:02:00Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-05-22T03:04:17Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-22T03:36:52Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-22T03:37:18Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-22T03:42:27Z ahungry joined #scheme 2021-05-22T03:47:06Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-22T03:54:54Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-22T03:58:06Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-22T04:07:31Z whitgreenlghtsbr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-22T04:11:41Z ChoHag: The literacy rate hasn't changed. 2021-05-22T04:12:01Z ChoHag: What's different is that these days the illiterate can read. 2021-05-22T04:19:32Z jcowan: And write (see Twitter) 2021-05-22T04:21:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-22T04:21:58Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-22T04:24:57Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-22T04:25:20Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-22T04:25:20Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-05-22T04:25:20Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-05-22T04:26:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-22T04:44:18Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-22T04:45:32Z killsushi joined #scheme 2021-05-22T04:45:52Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-22T04:45:53Z frost-lab quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-22T04:51:00Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-05-22T04:55:02Z ZombieChicken quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-22T05:33:40Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-22T05:40:33Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-05-22T05:50:27Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-22T05:51:14Z frost-lab quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-22T05:51:58Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-05-22T06:28:35Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-22T06:30:52Z whitgreenlghtsbr joined #scheme 2021-05-22T06:40:07Z skapata quit (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. 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2021-05-24T01:14:24Z killsushi joined #scheme 2021-05-24T01:15:07Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-05-24T01:18:31Z aeth: so when does the log bot move over to the other channel 2021-05-24T01:21:43Z ski attempted to initiate a query to two relevant (?) people, a few days ago 2021-05-24T01:23:46Z aeth: I went from 28 Freenode channels and 8 Libera channels (2021-05-20) to 21 Freenode channels and 15 Libera channels now. A lot of that is double channels like #scheme where I'm waiting for the transition to complete, if it's completing. Probably at least 1/3 2021-05-24T01:24:32Z ski: sorry, i didn't get that last bit 2021-05-24T01:25:35Z aeth: I'm in a bunch of Lisp/Scheme channels on both networks 2021-05-24T01:25:45Z aeth: I think a lot of them are waiting on Matrix 2021-05-24T01:25:52Z aeth: like #lispcafe 2021-05-24T01:26:23Z ski: mm 2021-05-24T01:26:53Z aeth: lol I did a /whois on you, OK, you've beaten me with channels 2021-05-24T01:27:03Z ski smiles 2021-05-24T01:27:06Z aeth: you're probably laughing about how few I'm in 2021-05-24T01:27:12Z ski: nah 2021-05-24T01:27:57Z ski can only see three, anyway 2021-05-24T01:28:11Z aeth: yeah, I guess there's a default privacy feature and you have it off but most don't 2021-05-24T01:28:17Z ski: yes 2021-05-24T01:28:47Z aeth: #lisp #lispgames #lispcafe #clschool #scheme ##lisp and a bunch of CL/Scheme implementations are the relevant ones 2021-05-24T01:29:33Z ski: (it used to be off by default, or maybe didn't exist, way back then. i discovered various interesting channels by stalking others, doing `/whois' on them. so i decided to enable others doing that on me, when they changed it to `+i' by default) 2021-05-24T01:30:01Z aeth: ah 2021-05-24T01:30:08Z aeth: I think most networks have it public 2021-05-24T01:30:16Z aeth: and I always do check and nobody ever has it on 2021-05-24T01:30:38Z ski: probably most people are not aware 2021-05-24T01:31:42Z ski: (i have had people, occasionally, reacting positively to me having it `-i', though, saying they found some interesting channel(s)) 2021-05-24T01:31:53Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-24T01:32:11Z ski: (in any case, secret (`+s') channels still doesn't turn up on `/whois') 2021-05-24T01:32:33Z aeth: probably a good idea to do this 2021-05-24T01:32:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-24T01:32:43Z ski: which ? 2021-05-24T01:32:48Z aeth: enable channels in whois I mean 2021-05-24T01:32:54Z aeth: some channels I'm in are my own, though, and I really don't like to self-promote 2021-05-24T01:33:09Z ski: up to each individual 2021-05-24T01:33:29Z aeth: besides the occasional joke about Airship Scheme taking over the world, I find that it's far too easy to set expectations than to reach them 2021-05-24T01:34:01Z ski: discoverability of channels is an interesting problem, i suppose 2021-05-24T01:34:20Z ski nods 2021-05-24T01:36:15Z ski can't recall hearing, apart from recently, about ##lisp, fwiw 2021-05-24T01:37:31Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-24T01:53:47Z jcowan: It's very low-traffic, but it's useful for comparative Lisp discussions. 2021-05-24T01:57:43Z ski: ah, sounds nice 2021-05-24T02:01:09Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-05-24T02:01:53Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-05-24T02:01:58Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-05-24T02:08:37Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-05-24T02:09:02Z daviid is now known as Guest10656 2021-05-24T02:09:22Z Guest10656 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-24T02:21:26Z choas quit (Ping timeout: 240 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joined #scheme 2021-05-24T13:43:53Z tatsumaru: is there an equivalent of differential equations in programming or fp per se? 2021-05-24T13:47:46Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-24T13:51:10Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-05-24T13:53:46Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-05-24T13:55:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:02:27Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-24T14:03:34Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:09:40Z whitgreenlghtsbr is now known as GIANT_WORLDKEEPE 2021-05-24T14:09:43Z GIANT_WORLDKEEPE is now known as GIANTWORLDKEEPER 2021-05-24T14:10:34Z GIANTWORLDKEEPER quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-05-24T14:14:30Z tzar_bomba joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:15:13Z tzar_bomba: there is srfi that exports two subsets of scheme base for safe use with eval. One of them allows mutations, and other is functional and doesn't. https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-172/srfi-172.html . However, why does functional contain begin or dynamic-wind forms? Oversight? I don't really understand where it would be useful if you can't perform 2021-05-24T14:15:14Z tzar_bomba: mutations 2021-05-24T14:21:11Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-24T14:21:45Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:24:51Z aeth: for begin, my guess is that it's not useful, but it's still safe 2021-05-24T14:25:36Z aeth: Plus, someone could turn something that normally has a side-effect into a no-op, and it's easier to not have to remove the begin 2021-05-24T14:31:38Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-24T14:32:01Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:36:22Z ggoes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-05-24T14:36:40Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:37:29Z tatsumaru left #scheme 2021-05-24T14:39:09Z ggoes quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-24T14:39:23Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:39:27Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:43:17Z GIANTWORLDKEEPER joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:45:11Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-24T14:45:36Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:48:57Z zap2 joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:50:01Z zap3 joined #scheme 2021-05-24T14:52:45Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-05-24T14:53:09Z zap2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-24T15:00:31Z jealousmonk left #scheme 2021-05-24T15:14:23Z stultulo is now known as f8l 2021-05-24T15:26:58Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-24T15:27:20Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-24T15:35:51Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-24T15:36:27Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-24T15:37:11Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-05-24T15:43:42Z tzar_bomba quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-24T15:49:02Z vms14 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-05-24T16:01:08Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-24T16:01:28Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-05-24T16:21:20Z tzar_bomba joined #scheme 2021-05-24T16:21:57Z evdubs__ joined #scheme 2021-05-24T16:24:11Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-05-24T16:28:53Z tzar_bomba quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-05-24T16:42:37Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-24T16:43:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-24T16:47:21Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-24T16:47:30Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2021-05-24T16:51:42Z Zipheir: Recursive equations are sort of similar to differential equations, and a large amount of functional programming can be seen as finding solutions to them. 2021-05-24T17:13:57Z zap3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-24T17:15:42Z Noisytoot is now known as noisytoot[gnu] 2021-05-24T17:58:28Z vms14 joined #scheme 2021-05-24T18:06:44Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-24T18:07:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-24T18:12:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-05-24T18:16:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-24T18:41:01Z evdubs__ is now known as evdubs 2021-05-24T19:12:06Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-24T19:21:02Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-05-24T19:24:06Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-24T19:43:09Z jcowan: aeth: I didn't attempt to remove what isn't useful, only what isn't safe. As another example, eq? and eqv? aren't useful 2021-05-24T19:43:48Z ChoHag: Also badly named. The most useful equality has the longest name. The short names are optimisations. 2021-05-24T19:47:20Z zap3 joined #scheme 2021-05-24T19:49:39Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-05-24T19:50:02Z aeth: idk, "highlevel = long" seems intuitive to me 2021-05-24T19:50:24Z aeth: maybe because high level stuff is often abstracted, while the lowest level stuff is just asm opcodes 2021-05-24T19:50:29Z ChoHag: The = symbol was invented for a reason. 2021-05-24T19:50:44Z ChoHag: To wit: writing "is equal to" in manuscripts was laborious. 2021-05-24T19:51:19Z ChoHag: Brevity is a virtue. Or it was until Larry said that fateful "hold my beer". 2021-05-24T19:53:37Z ChoHag: In any case I find people's fear of () amusing, because when reading lisp/scheme I have a much graver reaction to the sheer overwhelming weight of alphabetics. 2021-05-24T19:53:50Z ChoHag: You can barely see the parens for the verbosity. 2021-05-24T19:58:04Z Zipheir: ChoHag: You mean equal? 2021-05-24T19:58:52Z Zipheir: We've got (in the standards) one notion of equivalence and two notions of equality. 2021-05-24T19:59:24Z Zipheir: And one equivalence performance hack with murky semantics. 2021-05-24T19:59:42Z ChoHag: Yes, and they're named incorrectly. 2021-05-24T19:59:54Z ChoHag: Or at least the notion of equality is. 2021-05-24T20:00:21Z ChoHag: equal? is 4, possibly 5 characters too long. 2021-05-24T20:01:05Z Zipheir: By some people's standards. 2021-05-24T20:01:21Z Zipheir: This is clearly a subjective aesthetic matter. 2021-05-24T20:02:01Z ChoHag: Programming is entirely aesthetic. 2021-05-24T20:02:52Z Zipheir: Well, we don't generally have debates about the aesthetics of the truth of (not #f) => #t. 2021-05-24T20:03:29Z Zipheir: There are matters of logic/mathematics/computation which we (mostly) agree on. 2021-05-24T20:04:07Z Zipheir: Whereas naming things is often immensely controversial. 2021-05-24T20:04:14Z ChoHag: That's because it's hard. 2021-05-24T20:04:24Z ChoHag: Or we could talk about things everyone agrees on. That'll be fun. 2021-05-24T20:04:40Z Zipheir: We could just use de Bruijn indices and maximize terseness. :) 2021-05-24T20:06:12Z Zipheir: We just see so many PL discussions which turn into a "my names are better than your names" argument. I don't think I've ever learned anything from those. 2021-05-24T20:08:16Z ChoHag: That's because it's a hard problem. 2021-05-24T20:08:26Z ChoHag: Passion won't help. 2021-05-24T20:11:02Z aeth: short names are just an aesthetic choice, one I generally tend to disagree with 2021-05-24T20:11:03Z ChoHag: "The more ubiquitous an operator the more its name leans towards short/symbolic" seems like a no-brainer though. You wouldn't accept 'multiply' in place of '*' even though the correct symbol is '×'. 2021-05-24T20:11:19Z aeth: I only like short names for things that are clearly going to be used inline, like * 2021-05-24T20:11:27Z aeth: or CL's AREF vs Scheme's vector-ref 2021-05-24T20:11:50Z aeth: Besides, everyone knows * and they don't really see "multiply" in its written form very often, if ever 2021-05-24T20:12:01Z ChoHag: Every *programmer* knows *. 2021-05-24T20:12:21Z aeth: Everyone literate knows * because basic arithmetic is generally taught alongside basic literacy. 2021-05-24T20:12:21Z ChoHag: Because it's a convention dating from the 60s that nobody questions. 2021-05-24T20:12:33Z aeth: I mean, OK, it's × at the very basic level 2021-05-24T20:12:43Z aeth: But it becomes * around the time of prealgebra 2021-05-24T20:12:44Z ChoHag: Everyone literate knows × and possibly ·. 2021-05-24T20:12:49Z ChoHag: Programmers use *. 2021-05-24T20:13:47Z ChoHag: Because typewriters. 2021-05-24T20:14:03Z Zipheir: Although * is only an approximation to × in all runnable implementations. 2021-05-24T20:14:18Z aeth: Iirc, * is what you use when you first start not wanting to confuse × with x once you learn very basic (pre)algebra. · is what you use in more advanced classes, or even nothing at all (since 5xy is implicitly multiplying), but not everyone gets there. 2021-05-24T20:14:24Z aeth: Different grade school programs may differ, though 2021-05-24T20:14:43Z ChoHag: x the letter is written as two back-to-back c's when writing maths. 2021-05-24T20:14:47Z Zipheir: · is super-confusing notation once you've been introduced to ∘. 2021-05-24T20:14:50Z ChoHag: I learned that when I was like 9. 2021-05-24T20:15:16Z ChoHag: Then you do away with × the symbol but keep the funny-looking letter. 2021-05-24T20:15:20Z aeth: Everyone who gets deep into mathematics learns to write their letters and numbers in distinctive ways, including the x 2021-05-24T20:15:26Z Zipheir: (And, even more confusingly, ∘ is often written ·) 2021-05-24T20:15:43Z aeth: I doubt middle school math is taught by mathematicians all, or even most, of the time 2021-05-24T20:15:44Z ChoHag: Because ... convention. 2021-05-24T20:16:48Z aeth: Now, maybe * is a fairly new convention because of typewriters, but, I mean, typewriters aren't new and not everyone used/uses LaTeX 2021-05-24T20:17:02Z phillbush: Is this function iterative or recursive? I call iter in a tail-call situation (in the else condition) but I also call iter in its arguments. https://0x0.st/-e0r.txt 2021-05-24T20:17:16Z ChoHag: The point is regardless of the symbol nobody would accept (multiply a b) in place of (º a b) for any º. 2021-05-24T20:17:24Z ChoHag: Provided º is one character. 2021-05-24T20:17:32Z aeth: Right. Because (1) you see it more and (2) it's designed to be used inline 2021-05-24T20:17:59Z ChoHag: Hence more common operations use more jargonic notation, or why = was invented. 2021-05-24T20:18:13Z Zipheir: Right, but equal? is not =. 2021-05-24T20:18:15Z aeth: If you have a bunch of it in one line, conciseness matters. Otherwise, it doesn't. All of these newer Lisps with defn or def or df or d or whatever just to save a few characters just make code look uglier and don't really gain anything over "define" because nobody is going to put multiple defines on one line 2021-05-24T20:18:39Z ChoHag: =-the-symbol has various meanings which is why it took a long time to be invented. 2021-05-24T20:18:50Z ChoHag: The point is it *was* invented. Because it was useful. 2021-05-24T20:18:56Z Zipheir: It has quite the sordid history in PL design. 2021-05-24T20:19:09Z ChoHag: Yeah well we like to stir the pot. 2021-05-24T20:19:34Z aeth: I mean, clearly we should use ≡ and ≣ etc 2021-05-24T20:19:40Z midow joined #scheme 2021-05-24T20:21:05Z jcowan: I certainly learned . in secondary school and * from programming manuals. 2021-05-24T20:23:57Z zap3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-24T20:31:31Z zap3 joined #scheme 2021-05-24T20:34:03Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-24T20:34:28Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-24T20:37:46Z noisytoot[gnu] is now known as Noisytoot 2021-05-24T20:44:26Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-24T20:44:48Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-05-24T20:46:55Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-24T21:00:26Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-05-24T21:06:20Z ski: phillbush : arguably both ? 2021-05-24T21:14:58Z phillbush: ski: well, it can only be one of both. 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The main #scheme channel is now on another network, so please be patient when asking questions here. 2021-05-27T20:33:03Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-27T20:35:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-27T20:39:51Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-27T20:57:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-27T20:59:07Z TCZ joined #scheme 2021-05-27T21:14:52Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-27T21:19:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-27T21:24:26Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-27T21:40:19Z m1dow joined #scheme 2021-05-27T21:45:17Z midow joined #scheme 2021-05-27T21:45:51Z m1dow quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-05-27T21:54:47Z m1dow joined #scheme 2021-05-27T21:58:53Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-05-27T22:07:37Z TCZ quit (Quit: ...) 2021-05-27T22:30:34Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-27T22:57:01Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-27T23:16:16Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-05-27T23:18:39Z Steeve quit (Client Quit) 2021-05-27T23:23:08Z is0ke3 joined #scheme 2021-05-28T00:07:20Z ohama quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-28T00:15:03Z ohama joined #scheme 2021-05-28T00:45:48Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-28T00:47:31Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-28T00:54:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-28T00:59:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-05-28T01:15:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-28T01:15:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-28T01:26:46Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-28T01:28:42Z ahungry joined #scheme 2021-05-28T01:30:20Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-05-28T01:31:31Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-05-28T01:31:44Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-05-28T01:32:27Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-05-28T01:42:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-05-28T01:42:26Z is0ke3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-05-28T01:42:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-28T01:44:50Z is0ke3 joined #scheme 2021-05-28T01:52:16Z lockywolf left #scheme 2021-05-28T01:52:20Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-05-28T01:54:05Z Zipheir: Hi all. As you may have inferred from the topic change, we have control of the channel again. Note, however, that most discussion is now happening on the new channel, and that we hope everyone will eventually migrate. 2021-05-28T01:54:08Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-05-28T01:54:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-05-28T01:54:56Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, I'm not going to put the address of the new channel in the topic in order to avoid a repeat of May 25th's events. 2021-05-28T01:56:19Z Zipheir: However... 2021-05-28T01:58:49Z Zipheir changed the topic of #scheme to: Alternate, deprecated Scheme programming channel. The main #scheme channel is now on a different network; use rot13 on vep.yvoren.pung to see the URL. 2021-05-28T02:53:03Z Zipheir has set mode -m 2021-05-28T02:54:10Z Zipheir has set mode -cfps 2021-05-28T02:54:14Z Zipheir has set mode +z 2021-05-28T02:54:23Z Zipheir: Ping. 2021-05-28T02:55:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-05-28T02:56:00Z lockywolf: test 2021-05-28T02:56:15Z Zipheir: ACK. 2021-05-28T02:56:28Z lockywolf: Zipheir, pong is 120000.12 2021-05-28T02:56:47Z Zipheir: Sounds slow. 2021-05-28T02:57:04Z lockywolf: hydrocarbon computation is kinda like that 2021-05-28T02:57:59Z Zipheir: Sorry about the channel mute. 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