2021-03-01T00:01:08Z amirouche: rudybot: february was one mega a few kilo bytes great month 2021-03-01T00:01:13Z rudybot: amirouche: my day job is to help implement 802.x systems and my coworkers and i use kilo-, mega-, giga-, etc. in both decimal and binary senses all day long and the radix is always clear from the context. i haven't seen evidence of actual confusion myself. 2021-03-01T00:01:28Z amirouche failed 2021-03-01T00:05:34Z oriba quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-01T00:10:10Z edgar-rft: rudybot: somehow I hadn't expected to have any expectations 2021-03-01T00:10:20Z rudybot: edgar-rft: His voice matched my expectations, but I hadn't really thought about his appearance. :-| 2021-03-01T00:11:13Z edgar-rft: rudybot: it hadn't appeared to me that to be of any appearance 2021-03-01T00:11:41Z rudybot: edgar-rft: %%Page hasn't appeared at all except for his appearance in "This Might Get Loud", and in a performance with The Black Crowes 2021-03-01T00:13:14Z edgar-rft: rudybot: I hadn't expected there to appear any performance 2021-03-01T00:13:16Z rudybot: edgar-rft: Hi! I'm trying out org-mode agenda and I'm liking it so far :) I have one question, though - let's say I have a recurring task (SCHEDULED: <2016-11-23 wed +1d>). Now, in the Agenda View, let's say that I've been slacking of and I hadn't been doing the task for the last 5 days. It shows up in the agenda view and pressing "T" marks it as done, but refreshing with "G" makes it re-appear... What's the 2021-03-01T00:15:12Z edgar-rft: rudybot: everything was fine until org-mode ruined it all 2021-03-01T00:15:17Z rudybot: edgar-rft: I don't, for that reason, but was still aware of it because internet =/ I more envy rryoumaa than anything, until now where his world has been ruined 2021-03-01T00:16:10Z edgar-rft: rudybot: but then, again. I had not expected to have any expectations 2021-03-01T00:16:21Z rudybot: edgar-rft: That is an implied assumption, the phrase means that the return is expected/desired. All code is in some way incompatible/error-prone, working means that the result fits the design; a more appropriate initial assumption should be that the design does not fit _my_ expectations and that the code does not account for my usability ;) 2021-03-01T00:16:57Z edgar-rft: rudybot: it's totally hopeless to talk to you 2021-03-01T00:17:10Z rudybot: edgar-rft: so it may be hopeless to have a totally satisfying translation of a totally unsatisfying metaphor :) 2021-03-01T00:20:21Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-01T00:23:24Z dTal: rudybot: are you written in scheme? 2021-03-01T00:23:31Z rudybot: dTal: So is there a reason, besides performance, that most Scheme implementations are written in C? 2021-03-01T00:32:05Z edgar-rft: dTal: -> https://github.com/offby1/rudybot 2021-03-01T00:32:51Z dTal: awesome. ooh, racket 2021-03-01T00:34:08Z edgar-rft: rudybot runs on #emacs most of the time, so do not expect too scheme-centric answers :-) 2021-03-01T00:37:13Z luc273 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T00:38:21Z jcowan: Well, rudybot, it's portable. I suppose we will see them in Rust soon, which will not be so portable. 2021-03-01T00:41:44Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T00:41:51Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T00:56:28Z foof: there's no point preferring R5 to R7, since there's no practical way to share code in R5. you can prefer specific R5 implementations, though, and ignore portability, but then you're outside of the standards discussion to begin with. 2021-03-01T01:16:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T01:22:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:26:21Z Zipheir: foof++ 2021-03-01T01:26:24Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-01T01:32:10Z jcowan: Well, people shared R5 code for a long time, and it's still very portable if you ignore library issues. 2021-03-01T01:34:38Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:36:15Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:39:39Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-01T01:40:50Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T01:46:34Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-01T01:54:04Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T01:57:14Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-01T02:11:04Z cjb quit (Quit: brb) 2021-03-01T02:13:06Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-01T02:13:07Z cjb is now known as Guest59310 2021-03-01T02:18:15Z Guest59310 is now known as cjbayliss 2021-03-01T02:21:19Z cjbayliss is now known as cjb 2021-03-01T02:21:51Z cjb quit (Quit: brb) 2021-03-01T02:23:51Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-01T02:27:56Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - 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Maybe using scope to do that (like a with-foo-bar form that frees foo-bar on exit) or some other interesting solutions, like a version of set! that also frees what the var used to point to? ← just thinking out loud, maybe those specifically are dumb 2021-03-01T11:20:47Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-01T11:21:13Z snan: Like, for low-lev stuff, is what I'm thinking 2021-03-01T11:22:07Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-01T11:37:36Z polezaivsani: slightly related, there is microscheme running on arduinos, and the title page of the intro paper says it's lacking garbage collection, not sure how actual that info is, but it sure is low level 2021-03-01T11:41:18Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-01T11:43:36Z snan: That's pretty cool 2021-03-01T11:44:21Z snan: https://ryansuchocki.github.io/microscheme/ 2021-03-01T11:44:47Z snan: That's fantastic♥ 2021-03-01T11:45:04Z polezaivsani: atreus keyboards are running their firmware with it :) 2021-03-01T11:45:11Z snan: I even have one of those! 2021-03-01T11:45:13Z snan: I didn't know that 2021-03-01T11:45:26Z polezaivsani: how do you do parens with it? 2021-03-01T11:45:27Z snan: Now I am suddenly motivated to hack on that level instead of just using Chrysalis 2021-03-01T11:46:52Z snan: I haven't really decided on the upper layers yet, I just got it a few days ago. This is the layer #0 layout I have https://idiomdrottning.org/my-layout.jpeg and so far I've been using R and L (upper right corner) for the parens, on layer #2 which I get to as a secondary on either the ?/ key or the Tab key 2021-03-01T11:47:24Z snan: I'm still thinking of how to do layers #1 and #2 correctly 2021-03-01T11:47:45Z snan: I ordered a longer USB-c cord and put it back in the box until it arrives 2021-03-01T11:49:34Z snan: So I only used it for like three or four days, Wed through Fri last week. But what a weird coincidence that I used something written in Microscheme without even knowing it 2021-03-01T11:50:51Z snan: I got to a point where typing was comfortable but I still need to remap pretty much everything in dwm since I rely so heavily on spacebar and numbers for that 2021-03-01T11:51:24Z snan: polezaivsani: how do (or would) you do parens with it? 2021-03-01T11:51:46Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T11:52:11Z f8l joined #scheme 2021-03-01T11:52:25Z polezaivsani: i've been drooling over that thing for a while now :) I fell for it before i got to know it's running scheme... and still haven't ordered it - i'm pretty comfortable with laptop keyboards and fitting two of them on my laps is a bit of a tretch 2021-03-01T11:52:51Z polezaivsani: * stretch 2021-03-01T11:53:22Z snan: I'm not even sure I made the right call getting one. https://idiomdrottning.org/atreus-review 2021-03-01T11:53:43Z snan: I like the switches though. I like a good mechanical 2021-03-01T11:58:17Z snan: A lot of the features like "TapDance" etc are gonna become way more appealing now that I can scheme♥♥ 2021-03-01T12:08:05Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-01T12:15:05Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-01T12:15:24Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:18:01Z wigust quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-01T12:18:22Z wigust joined #scheme 2021-03-01T12:19:58Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T12:59:55Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-03-01T13:00:14Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-01T13:00:36Z matryoshka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T13:02:51Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T13:03:07Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-01T13:20:59Z phwalkr joined #scheme 2021-03-01T13:24:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T13:28:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T13:44:43Z nalaginrut joined #scheme 2021-03-01T13:44:47Z nalaginrut: https://lambdachip.com/articles/news/2 2021-03-01T13:46:37Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-01T13:48:59Z ecraven: interesting graph at the lower right: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/355137.355142 2021-03-01T13:49:34Z snan: I remember that one♥ 2021-03-01T14:01:55Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:03:55Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:07:31Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-01T14:10:27Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-01T14:14:22Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-01T14:17:58Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:20:25Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T14:21:08Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-01T14:24:40Z alelos quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:28:10Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-01T14:31:43Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:49:41Z alelos joined #scheme 2021-03-01T14:50:42Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-01T14:53:57Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T14:58:24Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-03-01T14:59:51Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T15:05:08Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T15:05:29Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-01T15:13:21Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-01T15:14:38Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T15:16:56Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T15:17:59Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-01T15:18:25Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T15:19:21Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-01T15:21:55Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T15:33:25Z egp__ quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-03-01T15:33:31Z egp_ quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-03-01T15:50:20Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-03-01T15:56:09Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:01:35Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-03-01T16:04:45Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:06:29Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-01T16:16:19Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-01T16:21:33Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-03-01T16:36:18Z jcowan: snan: PreScheme is a statically typed (without declarations) subset of Scheme that can be compiled directly into C and uses manual memory management. The Scheme48 interpreter is written in PreScheme. 2021-03-01T16:38:19Z snan: Thank you, jcowan. "Without declarations", that means inferred, right? 2021-03-01T16:38:35Z jcowan: Yes. You can debug PreScheme programs by running them in Scheme48 and using the Prescheme compiler as a type checker. 2021-03-01T16:39:02Z snan: I'm really happy that PreScheme and Microscheme exist 2021-03-01T16:39:10Z jcowan: Unfortunately it was never well-documented, as its authors saw it as a tool for writing Scheme48 and not a project in itself. But the Scheme48 code is available. 2021-03-01T16:39:37Z snan: It seems to be pretty much my age also 2021-03-01T16:39:52Z jcowan: You do have to declare the types of C procedures, of course. 2021-03-01T16:39:54Z jcowan: https://thintz.com/resources/prescheme-documentation 2021-03-01T16:40:25Z snan: Two types of pointers, I've seen before also. That's a good idea for this 2021-03-01T16:40:44Z snan: This is so baller 2021-03-01T16:42:24Z Zipheir: There's Henry Baker's "lively" linear Lisp https://web.archive.org/web/20200109114016/http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html 2021-03-01T16:43:42Z Zipheir: I don't know if that has any "lively" child projects, though. 2021-03-01T16:43:48Z snan: BTW in case peeps aren't familiar with me (I'm new to this channel) I know Zipheir and jcowan from elsewhere 2021-03-01T16:44:03Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T16:44:07Z Zipheir: snan: Thanks for joining! 2021-03-01T16:44:11Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-01T16:44:26Z jcowan: Actually I have not seen this PreScheme manual before; it's more complete than I had thought it would be 2021-03-01T16:45:35Z snan: BTW jcowan if you want me to write tests for tree.scm (hopefully someone else steps up and does that because I don't wanna, but just in case I out of the blue suddenly one day just feel like it), could you please send me the documentation again? I lost it 2021-03-01T16:47:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T16:47:55Z jcowan: It's now at https://github.com/pre-srfi/trees/spec.md 2021-03-01T16:48:34Z snan: https://github.com/pre-srfi/trees/blob/master/spec.md 2021-03-01T16:48:35Z snan: Thank you 2021-03-01T16:49:13Z snan: If you git clone https://idiomdrottning.org/tree.scm you'll also find license and README in there 2021-03-01T16:49:38Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:51:40Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T16:53:05Z gnomon joined #scheme 2021-03-01T16:53:52Z jcowan: Right. Make sure you have access to that file; the permissions are tangled and I don't quite understand what GitHub is telling me. 2021-03-01T16:57:56Z snan: GitHub is a difficult thing for me to understand too 2021-03-01T17:00:05Z alexshendi joined #scheme 2021-03-01T17:01:22Z jcowan: But you can view that? 2021-03-01T17:01:40Z snan: yes 2021-03-01T17:01:44Z snan: I can read the spec 2021-03-01T17:01:45Z snan: Thank you 2021-03-01T17:02:17Z snan: Just that https://github.com/pre-srfi/trees/blob/master/spec.md is the url rather than https://github.com/pre-srfi/trees/spec.md (w/o the "blob/") 2021-03-01T17:02:48Z snan: And the "master/" 2021-03-01T17:02:55Z snan: Or I guess any branch name 2021-03-01T17:03:04Z snan: s/any /the desired / 2021-03-01T17:12:34Z jcowan: yes, I was manually assembling the URL rather than copying and pasting 2021-03-01T17:19:07Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T17:19:21Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-01T17:20:33Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T17:26:27Z snan: Old school 2021-03-01T17:26:59Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T17:40:14Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T17:52:23Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-03-01T17:54:45Z alexshendi: Does anyone know, if Edwin/IMAIL in the current mit-schedule release supports login authentication? 2021-03-01T17:55:14Z alexshendi: s/mit-schedule/mit-scheme/ 2021-03-01T17:55:25Z alexshendi: Thanks in advance. 2021-03-01T17:56:35Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:00:28Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T18:21:41Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:26:02Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T18:32:13Z fosred joined #scheme 2021-03-01T18:34:14Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T18:35:59Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:37:34Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-01T18:47:25Z fosred quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T18:50:55Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-01T18:51:55Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T18:55:23Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T18:58:01Z dsp quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-01T18:58:09Z ramrunner joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:01:52Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:04:47Z ramrunner quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-01T19:14:07Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-01T19:14:35Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:15:59Z Jmabsd joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:16:02Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:21:31Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:23:21Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:23:56Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:24:46Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:29:39Z gioyik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T19:30:19Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:34:09Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:34:09Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:35:44Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:39:04Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:42:35Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:43:43Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:44:31Z amirouche1: mit-schedule :) 2021-03-01T19:47:08Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:48:09Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T19:49:41Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:52:06Z alexshendi quit (Quit: -a- IRC for Android 2.1.59) 2021-03-01T19:54:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:55:00Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-01T19:55:20Z snan: I would wish this language was named schedule 2021-03-01T19:56:19Z snan: Except on the ITS six-char limit it would be schedu 2021-03-01T19:56:44Z snan: Schlep would be a good name for it 2021-03-01T20:00:32Z amirouche1: schlop 2021-03-01T20:00:51Z amirouche1 amirouche 2021-03-01T20:01:21Z drakonis quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-01T20:04:38Z drakonis joined #scheme 2021-03-01T20:07:46Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T20:08:52Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T20:12:03Z jcowan: SCHEDL 2021-03-01T20:12:15Z jcowan: as in PLANR and CONIVR 2021-03-01T20:12:33Z jjjd` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-01T20:16:08Z Zipheir: If Steele & Sussman had succeeded in figuring out Hewitt, maybe we'd have ACTOR. 2021-03-01T20:18:36Z jcowan: Nobody can figure out Hewitt. 2021-03-01T20:18:56Z jcowan: He is the Kant of PLT 2021-03-01T20:27:09Z Zipheir: Hah. At least he's not the Heidegger. 2021-03-01T20:36:07Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T20:38:27Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T20:49:45Z jcowan: Kant has this really touching passage where he admits that he has no gift for exposition, and he hopes that someone will come along and explain his (inherently complex) ideas better than he can. 2021-03-01T20:49:53Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T20:51:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T20:51:39Z jcowan: Arguably that was Herder (and, in a later generation, Fischer) 2021-03-01T20:52:12Z jcowan: As for Heidegger, his ideas are not complex: he complexifies them to conceal how simple they are, while laughing up his sleeve at us. 2021-03-01T20:53:50Z jcowan: I don't know of any Heideggers in computer science, except vaguely Paul Graham. Boy, was Arc the emperor with no clothes. 2021-03-01T21:02:08Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:03:51Z oriba joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:04:21Z phwalkr quit 2021-03-01T21:06:21Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:07:17Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:09:56Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:10:42Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:22:58Z X-Scale: And then came Bel -> http://www.paulgraham.com/bel.html 2021-03-01T21:28:38Z ex_nihilo_ joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:28:56Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:35:57Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:39:30Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:41:31Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:42:57Z ramrunner joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:44:10Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:48:24Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T21:48:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:51:42Z lucb joined #scheme 2021-03-01T21:53:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-01T21:58:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T22:03:55Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T22:04:04Z taw10 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T22:05:33Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T22:06:44Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-03-01T22:09:50Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-01T22:11:57Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-01T22:17:26Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-03-01T22:21:06Z lambda-11235 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-01T22:27:15Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T22:27:39Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-01T22:33:23Z araujo joined #scheme 2021-03-01T22:33:46Z araujo is now known as Guest75841 2021-03-01T22:34:59Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-01T22:35:10Z Guest75841 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-01T22:36:31Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-01T22:37:59Z araujo joined #scheme 2021-03-01T22:39:10Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T22:46:44Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T22:47:23Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-01T22:55:44Z ex_nihilo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T22:57:16Z egp_ joined #scheme 2021-03-01T23:00:05Z araujo quit (Quit: see ya...) 2021-03-01T23:00:37Z araujo joined #scheme 2021-03-01T23:00:38Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2021-03-01T23:00:38Z araujo joined #scheme 2021-03-01T23:05:59Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:09:41Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T23:10:22Z Jmabsd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-01T23:10:22Z snan: jcowan: but then why not schemr? 2021-03-01T23:10:51Z snan: Also I still miss some features from Arc. Bel, on the other hand, I'm missing the selling point 2021-03-01T23:10:52Z jcowan: I don't know 2021-03-01T23:10:58Z araujo: Hello everyone o/ 2021-03-01T23:11:20Z araujo: any good recommendation for a scheme interpreter for macosx ? (hopefully with good support for linux too) 2021-03-01T23:11:22Z jcowan: Presumably that it is self-describing and self-interpreting. 2021-03-01T23:11:29Z araujo: compiler can too ... 2021-03-01T23:13:22Z snan: When I first got into Scheme the minimalism was a feature I loved and now I feel the other way. I love a huge library (I guess with the SRFI and eggs, we have that). I also kinda miss stuff like incf 2021-03-01T23:13:38Z jcowan: araujo: I recommend reading https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations including the comments as far as #32. 2021-03-01T23:14:01Z araujo: Thanks jcowan 2021-03-01T23:17:33Z jcowan: (after #32 it is all spam) 2021-03-01T23:19:18Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-01T23:19:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T23:20:21Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:25:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:34:35Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:35:35Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:37:11Z araujo quit (Quit: My laptop has gone to ZZZzzz…) 2021-03-01T23:38:18Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-01T23:52:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-01T23:57:55Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-01T23:58:00Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-03-01T23:58:12Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-01T23:58:39Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-01T23:59:12Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T00:00:35Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T00:05:10Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T00:11:30Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-02T00:40:22Z foof: jcowan: the point was "practical" way to share R5 code. you had to do work to port it to the different module systems, had to work around case-sensitivity issues, etc. it was time consuming and didn't scale to sharing large numbers of libraries. 2021-03-02T00:41:01Z jcowan: Absolutely. 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to have multiple arguments supported 2021-03-02T08:00:38Z taw10 joined #scheme 2021-03-02T08:01:08Z snan: mangol: someone who understands how to come up with good names♥ 2021-03-02T08:02:22Z actuallybatman left #scheme 2021-03-02T08:05:27Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-03-02T08:27:51Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T08:30:37Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-03-02T08:32:00Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T08:32:47Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-03-02T08:46:51Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-02T08:55:32Z remby quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-02T09:07:55Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-02T09:09:10Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-02T09:10:19Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T09:13:38Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-02T09:44:03Z snan: I just realized a huge drawback to being in this channel!! That I can no longer C-x b sche TAB RET to get to my REPL 2021-03-02T09:44:26Z snan: Or even C-x b *sche TAB RET because Emacs interprest the * as a glob 2021-03-02T09:45:26Z snan: This fixed it: M-x rename-buffer RET dorks RET 2021-03-02T10:01:35Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:09:02Z balkamos quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:09:58Z balkamos_ joined #scheme 2021-03-02T10:13:05Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-02T10:15:15Z balkamos_ quit (Changing host) 2021-03-02T10:15:15Z balkamos_ joined #scheme 2021-03-02T10:15:22Z balkamos_ is now known as balkamos 2021-03-02T10:32:40Z snan: Anyone in here using wisp syntax or wraith syntax in their day-to-day scheming? I just heard of them today and tried to learn them but then I gave up and went back to parens 2021-03-02T10:33:33Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:35:35Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-02T10:36:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-02T10:36:39Z snan: I noticed that I found myself having to keep the AST in my head, as in, I need to juggle the parens in my mind instead of having them in the file 2021-03-02T10:42:03Z pranavats joined #scheme 2021-03-02T10:42:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T10:46:10Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-02T11:01:12Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T11:01:28Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-03-02T11:07:48Z dpk: what's the current status of the R7RS string library problem? 2021-03-02T11:08:09Z dpk: other than 'it's going to be reballoted yet again at some point in future' 2021-03-02T11:08:34Z dpk: what's going to be on the ballot? what are the arguments for and against each option? 2021-03-02T11:09:18Z dpk: i think the last time i cast a ballot vote on anything was the red edition (or possibly even before then, for R7RS Small), and since then i've barely been paying attention to the Scheme world until a few weeks ago 2021-03-02T11:11:49Z amirouche2: There is will be a vote for some string library related to how to write literal strings (but idk what kind of string) 2021-03-02T11:14:28Z dpk: another library entirely? 2021-03-02T11:14:47Z dpk: i meant more the controversy about whether to use SRFI 13 with its index-based procedures or 130 with cursor-based procedures 2021-03-02T11:15:30Z dpk: or SRFI 152, which is apparently SRFI 13 with procedures that duplicate R7RS Small and some other shorthand forms removed 2021-03-02T11:16:34Z dpk: (e.g. i found while writing a library that had to do a teensy bit of string parsing recently that SRFI 152 requires me to use an actual predicate procedure in places where SRFI 13 allows me to use a character, like string-index) 2021-03-02T11:17:27Z amirouche2: (i am not a string expert ^^) 2021-03-02T11:19:51Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-02T11:37:29Z dpk: oh, then there's SRFI 135 as well. which … i mean, i approve of the idea of having immutable strings, but i'm not sure why strings weren't just made immutable full stop in R6RS, rather than adding an extra type for them 2021-03-02T11:38:52Z dpk: Haskell has two data types for strings (the default string, which is a linked list of characters, and Data.Text, which is a more typical blob in memory) and it is, by all accounts, extremely hairy to deal with when the two types interact 2021-03-02T11:41:22Z dpk: but at least Haskell has a type checker, so it can make sure you don't pass a string to a function that wants a text or vice-versa 2021-03-02T11:54:30Z dpk: and in true xkcd 927 style, there is also SRFI 140 *sigh* 2021-03-02T12:05:50Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-02T12:20:29Z dpk: which, if we ignore the fact that it changes R7RS Small semantics, actually appears to be the best option. although SRFI 135 already made it into the Red Edition, and would become rather redundant if SRFI 140 were accepted into Large 2021-03-02T12:40:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-02T12:44:39Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-02T12:51:57Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T13:11:40Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-02T13:17:07Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-02T13:20:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-02T13:25:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T13:35:21Z _rht joined #scheme 2021-03-02T13:37:55Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-02T13:49:51Z jcowan: And that's why we can't have nice things strings 2021-03-02T13:51:26Z jcowan: I'm going to leave 13 off the ballot in favor of 152 at least. 2021-03-02T13:53:58Z jcowan: The trouble we've had so far is that with too many options, no SRFI or combination gets a majority 2021-03-02T13:57:02Z jcowan: And 140 is not portable because it includes 118 2021-03-02T13:58:20Z jcowan: whereas 185 is a portable version of 118 except it is linear-update instead of requiring string length mutation. 2021-03-02T13:58:47Z jcowan: dpk: In short IT IS A MESS 2021-03-02T14:01:09Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:01:16Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T14:04:47Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-02T14:05:55Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:06:42Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-03-02T14:07:29Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T14:18:31Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-02T14:22:05Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-02T14:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T14:28:17Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-02T14:31:35Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:33:19Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-02T14:35:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-02T14:42:29Z jcowan: dieggsy: The problem with (fx+ i j k) is that an intermediate result might overflow the fixnum range even though the final result is a fixnum. 2021-03-02T14:52:33Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T14:55:27Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-02T15:00:56Z amirouche2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T15:02:04Z amirouche2 joined #scheme 2021-03-02T15:09:08Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-03-02T15:15:27Z hugo3 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2021-03-02T15:20:29Z dieggsy: jcowan: hmm, that's true, but it's stated in the document that overflows when using fixnum operations are generally used error, heh. I'm also not sure I see that behavior being much different to (fx+ (fx+ i j) k) 2021-03-02T15:20:46Z dieggsy: user* 2021-03-02T15:21:16Z jcowan: No, it isn't. But if you are careful you can often arrange things to avoid overflow. With (+ i j k l ...) you don't know what the implementation will do. 2021-03-02T15:22:08Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T15:22:25Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-03-02T15:23:25Z dieggsy: jcowan: hmm, I may add this functionality to the chicken implementation with foldr and just state that's how it's implemented 2021-03-02T15:23:36Z jcowan nods 2021-03-02T15:25:20Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-02T15:27:33Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-02T15:30:14Z dieggsy: in that case I suppose you could carefully rearrange them too, heh 2021-03-02T15:34:46Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-02T15:35:37Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-03-02T15:42:19Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-02T15:45:51Z rj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T15:46:15Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-02T15:53:18Z amirouche2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-02T16:09:02Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T16:11:45Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-02T16:24:58Z _rht quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-02T16:38:27Z snan: So when you say that the order matters, you mean that if you do all the positive numbers first before any of the negative numbers, you might get an overflow error where you wouldn't if you alternated pos and neg, right? 2021-03-02T16:38:27Z snan: But sometimes you don't know the polarity of numbers. It's not always that you know them well enough to figure out a good order for them. 2021-03-02T16:39:22Z jcowan: True 2021-03-02T16:40:21Z jcowan: If you're worried about that, you can just use +. The whole point of fx+ is to provide fast results when you have a clear idea of the domain. 2021-03-02T16:40:42Z jcowan: Indeed, the Chibi implementation defines fx+ as simply + 2021-03-02T16:41:05Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T16:41:21Z snan: Right, the whole arrange in order feels like a red herring is all 2021-03-02T16:43:17Z snan: You either A. know that the sum and all "sub-sums" (i.e. sum of any selection on addends) is in the correct size, B. know that it can overflow if you're in the wrong order but you can carefully select the order, or C. You don't know anything and you dare not use fx+. 2021-03-02T16:43:17Z snan: My case here is that don't make B the default case. It seems like maybe 15% of the time or so that'll be the situation (number totally pulled from hat / gutfeel). More likely it's A or C. 2021-03-02T16:43:37Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-02T16:44:09Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-02T16:44:28Z snan: So make multiple-arity fx+ just be the fx sum of all the digits (to handle the A case), and then when you're in C you use + and in those rare (I mean, definitely not never, but not the default either) cases you are in B, i.e. the order matters, you'll just do the fold yourself or you'll do some sub-calls to fx+ yourself. 2021-03-02T16:44:31Z snan: Does that makes sense? 2021-03-02T16:46:13Z dieggsy: snan: i agree with your assessment 2021-03-02T16:46:24Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T16:46:45Z snan: ♥ 2021-03-02T16:46:50Z jcowan: The order may matter and yet a fold is the wrong thing. 2021-03-02T16:47:02Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-02T16:47:16Z dieggsy: jcowan: ?? 2021-03-02T16:47:28Z jcowan: for example if you want (fx+ (fx+ a b) (fx+ c d)) 2021-03-02T16:47:58Z jcowan: It's not that there's no approach, it's that there's no clearly correct approach. 2021-03-02T16:47:59Z snan: In those cases you can do (fx+ (fx+ a b) (fx+ c d)) 2021-03-02T16:48:20Z dieggsy: wait, does a fold not produce the same result there? 2021-03-02T16:48:36Z snan: dieggsy: No, because you don't know which of a and b is neg and which of c and d is neg 2021-03-02T16:48:39Z jcowan: No, because that is neitehr left nor right associative 2021-03-02T16:49:06Z snan: If c is big you're in trouble with a fold-right 2021-03-02T16:49:31Z jcowan: Another point is that most Schemes are far less efficient in handling procedures that are variable arity, and the whole point of fx+ is efficiency. 2021-03-02T16:49:51Z dieggsy: snan: can you give me an example of this 2021-03-02T16:50:20Z dieggsy: jcowan: but then couldn't the same argument be made for fl+ 2021-03-02T16:50:30Z dieggsy: er, about efficiency 2021-03-02T16:50:59Z jcowan: Yes. The main argument there is that R6RS allows it. 2021-03-02T16:51:16Z snan: Say you know that one of these two: (fx+ a b) and (fx+ c d) is small (i.e. big neg) and the other is big, but you don't know which is is which. If you do foldr over a b c d and it happens that it was d's mallness that made the whole thing fit into fixnum, you're SOL because you'll overflow before you get to it 2021-03-02T16:51:51Z snan: Variable arity is such a mess. It's why we have cut and even why we have parens♥♥ 2021-03-02T16:52:17Z dieggsy: jcowan: ack. but IMO that feels a bit like a non-argument :), the real argument would be whatever r6rs used to justify it and that's what should hold up or not 2021-03-02T16:52:33Z snan: I mean, "compatibility", arguably 2021-03-02T16:52:43Z dieggsy: snan: wait, but barring overflow, will a fold produce the same result there? 2021-03-02T16:52:55Z jcowan: Well, the overflow argument is what R6RS used for fx, and it doesn't apply to fl. 2021-03-02T16:53:17Z dieggsy: because again, i do think if there is a possibility of overflow the user should have more carefully chosen whether to use fixnum operations lol 2021-03-02T16:53:30Z snan: dieggsy: yes, if there is no overflow then folding + over a b c d is the same as (+ (+ a b) (+ c d)) 2021-03-02T16:54:24Z dieggsy: jcowan: i also meant to ask, there's a note in the impl if srfi-143 about replacing /carry operations with 'assembly language operations'. does C/assembly have standard equivalents to those operations? or did you mean write it by hand basically 2021-03-02T16:55:04Z jcowan: Hardware generally provides a carry flag 2021-03-02T16:55:11Z jcowan: C doesn't give access to it 2021-03-02T16:55:18Z gwatt: jcowan: Isn't that because fl+ isn't commutative? 2021-03-02T16:57:31Z jcowan: No, it is commutative, but not associative 2021-03-02T16:57:51Z dieggsy: jcowan: darn... i think i'll hold off on embedding assembly into the chicken impl lol. ...though it may actually be possible/easy with a cond-expand for specific architectures, then keep the portable implementation for others 2021-03-02T16:58:04Z jcowan nods 2021-03-02T16:58:42Z jcowan: In any case you want to layer over (chicken fixnum) 2021-03-02T16:58:53Z jcowan: and put the brains, if any, there. 2021-03-02T16:59:14Z dieggsy: right, but most of the work has already been done, i'm merely the new maintainer and i'm looking at tweaks and improvements 2021-03-02T17:00:01Z dieggsy: it also seems to me that fx/ with multiple arguments is near useless, but i'm gonna provide it anyway for completeness heh 2021-03-02T17:00:12Z snan: Put the brains in the layer over (chicken fixnum) or put the brains in (chicken fixnum) 2021-03-02T17:00:14Z dieggsy: s/multiple/more than two 2021-03-02T17:01:38Z snan: I've used / with multiple args sometimes 2021-03-02T17:02:34Z dieggsy: snan: but / with multiple args is much different to fx/ with multiple args 2021-03-02T17:02:37Z snan: When I really wanna break things down 2021-03-02T17:03:45Z snan: OK, darlings, on phone starting now. TTYL 2021-03-02T17:13:09Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T17:13:32Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T17:15:00Z dieggsy: jcowan: it also just occurred to me i could maybe just implement balanced/ and euclidian/ in terms of chicken's fixnum procedures like fxrem and fx+, fx/, etc, unless there's a reason the ref impl uses the generic arithmetic procedures 2021-03-02T17:15:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-02T17:15:57Z jcowan: What about overflow there? 2021-03-02T17:16:45Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-02T17:17:43Z dieggsy: jcowan: chicken's fx procedures wrap around on overflow anyway, (and implementing it in C or assembly won't save me from that), so i think leaving overflow unhandled isn't the worst thing for this implementation 2021-03-02T17:18:20Z dieggsy: ....alternatively, i could implement some way to detect overflow on top of chicken's fixnum procedures for a bit of a performance hit 2021-03-02T17:20:14Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-02T17:28:39Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-02T17:35:35Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-02T17:37:36Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-02T17:44:37Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T17:48:07Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-02T17:54:45Z mdhughes: The reason I use fx procedures is for a slightly better performance. What happens at the edges is un-interesting compared to "can I do this image processing loop in Scheme or do I have to write it in fucking C?" 2021-03-02T17:54:54Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-02T17:55:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-02T17:56:16Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-02T17:59:15Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-03-02T17:59:38Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-02T18:01:49Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-02T18:02:25Z Zipheir: I can't think of any other reason to bother with fixnum arithmetic. 2021-03-02T18:03:14Z Zipheir: I like the caveat in the docs for CHICKEN's fixnum module: "This is purely a performance hack." 2021-03-02T18:05:30Z mdhughes: Well, some people have delusions of type systems. 2021-03-02T18:08:05Z Zipheir: Oh, I could see a rationale in wanting to restrict a function to exact numerical computations. 2021-03-02T18:08:21Z gwatt: mdhughes: Have you seen a measured performance benefit for fx+ ? The admittedly dinky repl testing usually showed a slight performance benefit in favor of the basic + 2021-03-02T18:08:26Z gwatt: (assuming chezscheme) 2021-03-02T18:10:21Z mdhughes: My test showed fx as slightly faster, but it wasn't amazing. But I'll take "slightly". I need to write a proper benchmark and run it on a few schemes. 2021-03-02T18:11:31Z mr_machina joined #scheme 2021-03-02T18:15:36Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-03-02T18:16:04Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T18:18:20Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-02T18:19:45Z mdhughes: Oh, and don't expect the REPL to do much, but -O 2 or 3 should. 2021-03-02T18:24:22Z Zipheir: That doesn't make sense to me. If it's necessary to get a compiler to optimize to see any performance gain, then the fixnum arithmetic procedures aren't doing anything. 2021-03-02T18:24:47Z Zipheir: ("doing anything" in the sense of "providing any tangible performance gain".) 2021-03-02T18:26:51Z mdhughes: Things generally run faster if you compile them with massive-bit-crunching and turning off safeties, than when you run in an interpreter, or even a no-opts JIT that needs to compile *now* instead of perfectly. 2021-03-02T18:28:06Z gioyik_ joined #scheme 2021-03-02T18:28:28Z mario-goulart: Besides the "numeric" aspect of fx operators, it's also worth noticing that their arity is fixed, while the non-fx operators have variable arity (which is more costly). 2021-03-02T18:28:39Z Zipheir: That's a good point. 2021-03-02T18:29:38Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-02T18:32:05Z mario-goulart: I _think_ chicken has some rewrite rules to optimize cases when the arity of non-fx operators can be determined at 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daviid: fwiw, never 2021-03-03T05:31:16Z Zipheir: Thanks. 2021-03-03T05:36:29Z dieggsy: Zipheir: i was just looking at that myself ,heh 2021-03-03T05:40:12Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-03T05:41:53Z Zipheir: dieggsy: I was going to adopt it, but I was first curious if anyone actually used it. 2021-03-03T05:42:34Z Zipheir: (The CHICKEN port, I mean.) 2021-03-03T05:43:18Z Zipheir: (For the former part of what I said. I'm curious if anyone uses the SRFI, in whatever Scheme.) 2021-03-03T05:43:26Z dieggsy: the functionality gain really seems marginal TBH 2021-03-03T05:43:41Z dieggsy: or the convenience gain for that matter 2021-03-03T05:44:13Z Zipheir: I'm thinking the named-let part is completely marginal, and the rest-args syntax isn't needed with let-values. 2021-03-03T05:44:53Z Zipheir: Well, maybe. 2021-03-03T05:45:58Z Zipheir: No, I misunderstood. It's about rest parameters in named lets. I don't really see why you'd need that. 2021-03-03T05:49:48Z dieggsy: i mean, to parallel the behavior of a recursive procedure with rest params 2021-03-03T05:49:52Z dieggsy: ...but at that point i just use a procedure, i think 2021-03-03T05:50:16Z dieggsy: i really want srfi-169 but it seems non-trivial to properly add to chicken 2021-03-03T05:50:30Z dieggsy: i might give it a go at some point 2021-03-03T05:52:54Z Zipheir: I actually think the rest parameters thing is a rather bad feature, since it involves consing up a new list on each application. This is the dreaded "variadic recursion" pattern. 2021-03-03T05:54:59Z Zipheir: Oh, yeah, 169 is probably going to have to be added directly to a Scheme's reader. 2021-03-03T06:01:42Z dieggsy: Zipheir: lol, as a preliminary thing, i tried to just modify ##sys#string->number in a real dumb way and it's, uh, working? https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-03-03T01:01:51 2021-03-03T06:02:57Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:03:39Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-03-03T06:04:36Z Zipheir: dieggsy: That's hilarious. I guess 169 is easy to add after all! :) 2021-03-03T06:04:53Z Zipheir: I wonder how many Schemes could use such a trivial reader hack. 2021-03-03T06:04:57Z dieggsy: lol, i'm sure there's great reasons why this is an awful idea. 2021-03-03T06:05:16Z dieggsy: of course, i'd not want to use irregex for this in the ideal scenario 2021-03-03T06:05:49Z dieggsy: also the way it is now e.g. 1112_ is recognized as a string which is not up to spec. _1112 isn't though, probably the number reader doesn't kick in there though 2021-03-03T06:05:57Z dieggsy: er, recognized as a number i mean 2021-03-03T06:07:30Z dieggsy: ooh, string-filter 2021-03-03T06:08:16Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:12:01Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-03-03T06:12:09Z gioyik quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T06:15:43Z gioyik_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:16:06Z dieggsy: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-03-03T01:16:22 2021-03-03T06:16:12Z dieggsy: lol 2021-03-03T06:17:13Z dieggsy: that way you can have 112_ again 2021-03-03T06:18:32Z dieggsy: ah, it also doesn't catch weirdness like 12_.1221 2021-03-03T06:19:58Z Zipheir: A real parser will be needed to reject all of the invalid strings, but it's nice that quick-and-dirty support is possible. 2021-03-03T06:20:28Z dieggsy: Zipheir: I feel like it's simple enough that 'real parser' is a bit of an overstatement heh 2021-03-03T06:20:48Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:20:56Z dieggsy: ...maybe regex will do actually, lol. or just. my own custom iteration 2021-03-03T06:23:20Z Zipheir: Is it a regular language? I've only skimmed the spec. 2021-03-03T06:24:06Z dieggsy: Zipheir: the spec is literally 'allow underscores between any two digis' 2021-03-03T06:24:50Z dieggsy: like, that's actually the full spec lol 2021-03-03T06:25:04Z Zipheir: That sounds regular. 2021-03-03T06:27:28Z dieggsy: jajaja, yep 2021-03-03T06:27:49Z dieggsy: like i said, 'parser' feels like a strong word here 2021-03-03T06:28:36Z Zipheir: Probably for hysterical raisins, a parser for a regular language is usually called a lexer. 2021-03-03T06:30:29Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-03T06:33:12Z Zipheir quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:39:22Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-03-03T06:39:48Z Zipheir: Back, brief power outtage. 2021-03-03T06:40:43Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-03-03T06:42:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-03T06:43:42Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:46:17Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-03T06:47:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:47:40Z sm2n_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T06:55:07Z snan joined #scheme 2021-03-03T06:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T06:58:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-03T07:00:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T07:00:45Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-03T07:22:34Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-03T07:30:53Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-03T07:32:31Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:37:18Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:37:20Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-03T07:40:39Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T07:43:45Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:04:12Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:05:34Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:05:54Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:11:20Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T08:11:42Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:20:35Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:21:59Z stux|work quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T08:24:04Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:24:21Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T08:24:22Z akkad joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:24:41Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:26:22Z stux|work joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:33:18Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-03T08:43:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:44:44Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:44:55Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:45:01Z ggoes quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:46:09Z khisanth_ joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:46:24Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-03T08:47:02Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:48:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T08:48:19Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:50:04Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-03T08:54:59Z t3hyoshi_ is now known as t3hyoshi 2021-03-03T08:58:06Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T08:59:56Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:02:01Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-03-03T09:07:46Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-03T09:10:50Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:25:08Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:30:45Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-03T09:35:55Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-03T09:36:44Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:37:24Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-03T09:42:47Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-03-03T09:42:47Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T09:44:11Z t3hyoshi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:46:23Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-03T09:48:12Z sm2n_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T09:49:11Z pinkisntwell joined #scheme 2021-03-03T09:49:44Z pinkisntwell: Is the standard recursive function to sum a list of numbers tail recursive? 2021-03-03T09:58:19Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:03:35Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-03T10:09:19Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-03T10:10:00Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-03T10:15:01Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-03-03T10:26:12Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T10:29:58Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-03T10:30:36Z polezaivsani: Is #\\NNN syntax for octal representation of chars standardized somewhere? 2021-03-03T10:34:55Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T10:40:30Z fiddlerwoaroof is now known as edwlan 2021-03-03T10:44:02Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-03T10:44:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-03T10:45:48Z jjjd joined #scheme 2021-03-03T10:47:54Z edwlan is now known as fiddlerwoaroof 2021-03-03T10:49:20Z fiddlerwoaroof is now known as edwlan 2021-03-03T10:49:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T10:49:33Z edwlan is now known as fiddlerwoaroof 2021-03-03T11:00:04Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-03T11:44:56Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T11:52:35Z amirouche1: pinkisntwell: I am not sure what is the goal of the question, my answer is: it is prolly tail call recursive, but passing a large number of numbers such as (apply + numbers) might or might not be as fast as multiple calls. 2021-03-03T11:53:20Z amirouche1: otherwise said, the problem is not about + but is more general and about how the scheme implementation handle rest arguments. 2021-03-03T11:54:40Z pinkisntwell: amirouche1, I am trying to understand under what condition this optimization occurs. To be more specific, here is the function: https://paste.debian.net/1187625/ 2021-03-03T11:56:18Z pinkisntwell: amirouche1, How can the implementation optimize away the fact that it has to add something to the return value of the recursive call? Where is the "car elemList" value stored if its stack frame is deleted? 2021-03-03T12:02:42Z jcowan: pinkisntwell: Side note: Don't put ) on a line by itself, it's harder for Lispers to read. That means your code often ends with ")))))" but that's fine. 2021-03-03T12:09:04Z amirouche1: pinkisntwell: the sum function you pasted is not tail recursive (define (foobar lst) ... (proc (car lst) (foobar (cdr lst))) is never recursive 2021-03-03T12:09:20Z amirouche1: pinkisntwell: do use fold procedure instead. 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https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-03T18:36:43Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T18:38:39Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T18:44:55Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-03-03T18:46:41Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-03T18:47:51Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-03T18:48:22Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-03T18:50:13Z mario-go` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2021-03-03T18:50:35Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2021-03-03T18:55:38Z massma quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T19:02:51Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-03T19:08:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-03T19:08:50Z manumanumanu quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-03T19:09:02Z jjjd` quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-03T19:13:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:19:24Z aquijoule__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:22:14Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:23:02Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-03-03T19:23:48Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:24:09Z Tirifto joined #scheme 2021-03-03T19:27:52Z terrorjack joined #scheme 2021-03-03T19:31:54Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-03T19:37:48Z amirouche2 joined #scheme 2021-03-03T19:38:13Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:40:53Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T19:48:52Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-03T19:49:12Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-03T20:00:02Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-03T20:11:43Z Wezl left #scheme 2021-03-03T20:11:52Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-03T20:22:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-03T20:22:25Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T20:24:26Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-03-03T20:25:11Z Wezl: what is the scheme equivalent of cl's list*? 2021-03-03T20:26:27Z Wezl: I guess I could use append... 2021-03-03T20:29:09Z gwatt: Wezl: some schemes have list* and some have cons*. I think cons* is r6rs 2021-03-03T20:29:21Z wasamasa: srfi-1 has something 2021-03-03T20:29:28Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T20:29:31Z wasamasa: > This function is called list* in Common Lisp and about half of the Schemes that provide it, and cons* in the other half. 2021-03-03T20:29:47Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-03T20:29:52Z terrorjack quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-03-03T20:30:15Z Wezl: thanks! 2021-03-03T20:30:36Z wasamasa: it's generally rewarding to study srfi-1 2021-03-03T20:31:01Z Zipheir: fold-right does it. 2021-03-03T20:31:51Z Zipheir: Albeit with different argument order: (define (list*-like base-list . elts) (fold-right cons base-list elts)) 2021-03-03T20:32:38Z Zipheir: Oh, I never noticed cons* in SRFI 1. 2021-03-03T20:33:21Z Wezl: nice, that's more what I was looking for, a definition of list* that works in tinyscheme, though append might work as well in my case 2021-03-03T20:33:35Z Zipheir: Talk about a confusing design, though: the result may or may not be a pair, let alone a proper list. 2021-03-03T20:33:41Z wasamasa: yup 2021-03-03T20:33:52Z wasamasa: it's sure strange 2021-03-03T20:34:02Z Wezl: I like the name cons* more 2021-03-03T20:34:26Z Wezl: if I make a scheme sometime... 2021-03-03T20:35:01Z Zipheir: ... don't include cons*. 2021-03-03T20:35:29Z Wezl: why not? 2021-03-03T20:35:41Z Zipheir: Well, SRFI 1's got it, so it need never be implemented again. 2021-03-03T20:35:46Z Wezl: ok 2021-03-03T20:36:03Z Zipheir: Also, I think it's a bad design. See above. 2021-03-03T20:37:12Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-03-03T20:37:49Z Wezl: do you also think cons is bad design? 2021-03-03T20:37:54Z Zipheir: I think it can be fixed, though. Require two or more arguments. 2021-03-03T20:38:36Z Zipheir: Nope. Hence if (cons* a d) ≡ (cons a d), and if (cons x) is an error, everything is fine, I think. 2021-03-03T20:40:25Z Zipheir: Wezl: The bad thing about cons, IMO, is that it constructs pairs, not lists, but that's deeply ingrained in most lisps. 2021-03-03T20:41:27Z Wezl: *usually* it makes more sense to use a haskell-like list? 2021-03-03T20:41:49Z Zipheir: I'm not sure I know what that means. 2021-03-03T20:42:16Z Wezl: it just means the tail is always either a list or nil 2021-03-03T20:42:33Z Zipheir: So, a list. 2021-03-03T20:42:44Z Wezl: yes 2021-03-03T20:42:55Z pinkisntwell quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T20:42:56Z Zipheir: What SRFI 1 calls a proper list. 2021-03-03T20:43:15Z Zipheir: Yeah, improper lists are silly. 2021-03-03T20:43:38Z Wezl: yes, except for I mean should it be restricted like in haskell? 2021-03-03T20:44:42Z Wezl: I'm making a lisp-like language where a basic expression like (+ 1 2) is (((function . +) . 1) . 2), so curried 2021-03-03T20:44:48Z Zipheir: Yes. The second argument of cons should be a list, and similarly for all other list procedures. 2021-03-03T20:45:22Z Zipheir: We don't really have a list type in Lisp, just pairs, as Olin laments in SRFI 1. 2021-03-03T20:46:05Z Zipheir: (And it's, strictly speaking, undecidable whether a list is proper or not.) 2021-03-03T20:47:33Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-03T20:47:51Z Wezl: so the two uses I see are in that language and alists 2021-03-03T20:50:15Z Wezl: hy and fennel don't have cons IIRC 2021-03-03T20:51:56Z Zipheir: Wezl: Scheme uses dot notation a lot, similar to what you've got above. 2021-03-03T20:52:28Z Zipheir: The alist thing is inessential. Conventional alists are car/cdr, but there's nothing wrong with car/cadr alists, that I can see. 2021-03-03T20:55:15Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T20:56:59Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:13:09Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:13:49Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:15:04Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:15:45Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-03-03T21:28:58Z Wezl: also the ability to make improper lists is handy for pattern matching 2021-03-03T21:29:27Z Wezl: (e.g. dotted lists in define) 2021-03-03T21:30:33Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:30:42Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:32:50Z parse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T21:33:14Z parse joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:33:37Z averell quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:37Z fizzie quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z aos quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z brettgilio_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z m1dnight_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z kbtr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:33:38Z woky quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z averell joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z fizzie joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z aos joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z brettgilio_ joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z kbtr_ joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:34:44Z woky joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:34:50Z m1dnight_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-03T21:35:15Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T21:35:23Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:36:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:37:09Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T21:37:38Z dpk: Zipheir: undecidable? 2021-03-03T21:38:19Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T21:38:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:46:20Z dpk: (also, oh hi! you're the person who wrote the reference implementation for my SRFI!) 2021-03-03T21:46:37Z Noisytoot: improper lists are also useful for argument lists 2021-03-03T21:47:06Z Noisytoot: It's quite inconvenient that Racket's list functions won't work on them 2021-03-03T21:48:32Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:48:45Z dpk: incidentally, i asked jcowan, but it was during his recent absence from IRC and he may not have seen, and in any case there may be others here who would know: am i the first woman to write a SRFI? 2021-03-03T21:49:05Z jcowan: AFAICT yes 2021-03-03T21:49:13Z dpk: i skimmed through the list of names on the existing ones and i seemed to be, but there were also quite a number of non-English names i can't instinctively gender 2021-03-03T21:50:16Z amirouche2: what is the SRFI? 2021-03-03T21:50:29Z dpk: 207 2021-03-03T21:51:54Z Noisytoot: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-207/ 2021-03-03T21:52:20Z Noisytoot: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-207/srfi-207.html 2021-03-03T21:52:20Z jcowan: I don't know about Joo ChurlSoo, but none of their SRFIs have been even close to taking off 2021-03-03T21:52:56Z dpk: jcowan: when do you expect to get around to writing NetworkPortsCowan into a SRFI? i'd like to volunteer to write the reference implementation (in terms of SRFIs 106 and 181), and i have some notes that should probably be included into the spec 2021-03-03T21:54:00Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-03T21:54:02Z amirouche2: a student of Historical Linguistics: only seen in #scheme :) 2021-03-03T21:54:41Z jcowan: well, two of us, though dpk is the formal one 2021-03-03T21:54:43Z dpk: you'd be surprised. there's another chap in some of my classes who's not only the best in class in linguistics, but also a very accomplished programmer 2021-03-03T21:55:33Z dpk: jcowan: also, there's an effectively broken link in NetworkPortsCowan to SettingsListsCowan, since that got turned into a link to FilesAdvancedCowan which got turned into SRFI 181, which (afaict) contains nothing about settings lists 2021-03-03T21:55:44Z dpk: iirc, settings lists are your proposal for keyword arguments? 2021-03-03T21:56:39Z dpk: wouldn't it make more sense to agree on a keyword arguments system first, so we don't end up with multiple incompatible systems in R7RS Large? 2021-03-03T21:57:18Z amirouche2: neither did SRFI-167 or SRFI-168, I am stubborn about it. 2021-03-03T21:57:51Z amirouche2: re Joo CurlSoo ^ 2021-03-03T21:58:19Z amirouche2: dpk: there was a keyword SRFI, I guess you know 2021-03-03T21:58:26Z dpk: there are several 2021-03-03T21:59:11Z terrorjack joined #scheme 2021-03-03T21:59:18Z dpk: (well, at least two, of which the most recent i know of was withdrawn for reasons i didn't quite understand) 2021-03-03T22:00:23Z amirouche2: they were no agreement IIRC 2021-03-03T22:01:03Z amirouche2: even if it might have been finalized without agreement. 2021-03-03T22:01:44Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-03T22:02:20Z jcowan: I think we need to get votes on syntax-case/explicit-renaming/both/neither before we can do keywords 2021-03-03T22:02:32Z dpk: it was by Lassi Kortela, and the reason (as i recall) was that he had lambda/kw and define/kw as special forms for defining procedures that receive keyword arguments, but then had a call/kw special form which you *had* to use in order to call a procedure that had been defined using lambda/kw 2021-03-03T22:02:43Z dpk: nobody liked call/kw so it was withdrawn 2021-03-03T22:03:17Z dpk: i don't understand why he didn't just kill call/kw and let you call keyword argument procedures like normal procedures 2021-03-03T22:03:17Z amirouche2: the point was to be portable today, that make sense in this regard. 2021-03-03T22:03:27Z jcowan nods 2021-03-03T22:03:40Z dpk: a portable implementation would have to do the keyword lookups at runtime either way 2021-03-03T22:04:06Z amirouche2: ok. 2021-03-03T22:04:28Z dpk: jcowan: so that a sample implementation knows which one to use? 2021-03-03T22:04:29Z jcowan: We need a word for "usable in many implementations because cond-expand"; neither "portable" nor "non-portable" works 2021-03-03T22:04:44Z amirouche2: fwiw, I have similar feeling between keyword arguments and srfi-207: not essential and they are workarounds. 2021-03-03T22:05:10Z amirouche2: workarounds = replacement that are not perfect but do the job. 2021-03-03T22:05:35Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-03T22:05:46Z amirouche2: Tho, I changed my mind about keyword arguments, it would be great to have a common way to do it. 2021-03-03T22:06:38Z amirouche2: (preferably without requiring big changes :) 2021-03-03T22:07:17Z dpk: jcowan: and i assume that decision is waiting on M N-W to finish SRFI 211? hopefully now the German uni semester is over he'll have a bit of time to work on it, although at least for us semester break is two weeks shorter than usual this year 2021-03-03T22:07:57Z jcowan: You need a keyword like call/kw to trigger expansion into a procedure call. 2021-03-03T22:08:26Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-03T22:08:41Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-03-03T22:08:59Z amirouche2 is now known as amirouche 2021-03-03T22:09:40Z amirouche: they are many SRFI that are not widespread at all or even used by more than their authors. 2021-03-03T22:11:08Z jcowan: Yes. That's part of the point of the R7RS-large process 2021-03-03T22:11:08Z dpk: why? why can't a portable implementation transform (lambda/kw (a b c x: 1 y: 2 z: 3) body) into (lambda (a b c . kwargs) (let ( (x (keyword-lookup kwargs 'x 1)) (y (keyword-lookup kwargs 'y 2))) (z (keyword-lookup kwargs 'z 3)) ) body) ? 2021-03-03T22:12:14Z jcowan: Converting between x: and x is not something syntax-rules can do. 2021-03-03T22:12:35Z dpk: i mean 'portable' in a more general sense 2021-03-03T22:13:03Z Zipheir: Hi dpk! I believe I was wrong; it's decidable whether a finite cons-structure is a proper list. 2021-03-03T22:13:04Z dpk: not just 'does it work on R7RS Small', but 'can it, in theory, be implemented without compiler hacking in a Scheme system in general' 2021-03-03T22:13:20Z dpk: syntax-case could do it 2021-03-03T22:13:41Z jcowan: In addition, on Schemes with native keywords it is important that they interoperate correctly (that is, a SRFI 117 call must be able to invoke a procedure defined natively. 2021-03-03T22:14:13Z dpk: queues based on lists? 2021-03-03T22:14:42Z jcowan: s/117/177 2021-03-03T22:14:52Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:15:21Z amirouche: chibi let-keyword / let-optional are neat :) 2021-03-03T22:15:30Z amirouche: works everywhere if I am not mistaken 2021-03-03T22:15:53Z amirouche: (with a performance hit) 2021-03-03T22:16:58Z jcowan: So the withdrawal notice has two parts: 2021-03-03T22:17:04Z jcowan: 1) The keyword call syntax presented here is very unorthodox, wrapping keyword arguments in a sublist at the end of each procedure call. This is unlike every other Lisp dialect out there, all of which splice keyword arguments into the same argument list as ordinary positional arguments. 2021-03-03T22:17:15Z jcowan: 2) call/kw 2021-03-03T22:17:32Z amirouche: dpk: what do you plan to do after being a student? 2021-03-03T22:18:24Z jcowan: Now if implementations using ER and syntax-case were provided, then calls like (call/kw a b c &key 'd foo 'e bar 'f baz) would work well. 2021-03-03T22:19:26Z dpk: i still don't understand the second part (a keyword procedure call must be able to invoke a procedure defined natively) 2021-03-03T22:19:39Z dpk: what stops that from working otherwise? 2021-03-03T22:20:05Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-03-03T22:22:11Z dpk: amirouche: i don't have any real plans for that at the moment 2021-03-03T22:24:10Z Zipheir: At some point Riastradh will see this and assert that the Racket approach is the only way to do keyword. 2021-03-03T22:24:15Z Zipheir: s/keyword/&s/ 2021-03-03T22:26:04Z jcowan: The only way to have a unified calling convention that translates into impl-specific calling conventions for it to be a macro, either a generic one like call/kw or for each such keyword procedure to in fact itself be a macro. 2021-03-03T22:26:50Z jcowan: The problem with the latter approach is that a macro is not a first-class object. 2021-03-03T22:26:52Z dpk: or generated by a macro, as i suggested above 2021-03-03T22:28:21Z jcowan: If (foo a b c 'x bar 'y baz) is itself a macro, you can't use it with apply, map, etc. 2021-03-03T22:28:44Z dpk: right, i get that 2021-03-03T22:29:16Z jcowan: therefore, there must be a general macro that generates a procedure call with the correct argument pattern. Call/kw is the name of that macro. 2021-03-03T22:29:28Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:31:19Z dpk: why? if the macro could avoid doing call-time alist-like lookups to bind the keyword names to variables, it would maybe be worth it, but even that would probably need non-portable introspection of the macro's first argument 2021-03-03T22:32:00Z dpk: i'm reading SRFI 177 and the reason call/kw was specified was because his goal was to create a keyword argument system that would work on Schemes which already have keyword arguments 2021-03-03T22:32:20Z dpk: "While all of the implementations support the syntax (proc arg1 arg2 #:key3 arg3 #:key4 arg4) with the keys in any order, the keyword prefix or suffix #: varies. On the other hand the implementations all have a low-level macro system, as well as procedures to turn symbols into keywords. Hence the easiest portable approach is to provide a macro that lets the caller use ordinary symbols instead of keywords for the read syntax. The symbols are 2021-03-03T22:32:20Z dpk: then converted into the implementation’s native keyword syntax by the macro. The call/kw procedure in this SRFI implements this pattern." 2021-03-03T22:33:47Z dpk: in that context i understand it 2021-03-03T22:33:48Z jcowan: Yes, that's what I was trying to explain, because native systems can be optimized by the compiler, whereas let-keywords cannot. 2021-03-03T22:34:53Z dpk: but if we don't care about being able to portably translate between this and some other keyword argument system, there's no need for call/kw? 2021-03-03T22:36:14Z dpk: i realize that whoever requires a particular keyword argument convention in R7RS Large will make themselves very unpopular with the implementors of existing Schemes, but … 2021-03-03T22:36:33Z jcowan: no, then let-keyword is enough. But I don't want to have two separate and non-interoperable keyword systems in a Scheme. 2021-03-03T22:37:08Z jcowan: And yes, alienating existing implementers was IMO the biggest mistake that the R6RS committee made 2021-03-03T22:37:58Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-03T22:38:24Z jcowan: ISTR that MN-W was explaining to me that you can exploit identifier-syntax to make macros sort of first-class, but I can't find or reconstruct what he was saying. If he said that at all. 2021-03-03T22:41:01Z jcowan: Basically R6 systems wound up being either new from-scratch implementations or else implementations controlled by members of the Editorial Committee. Nobody else *converted* to R6. 2021-03-03T22:42:37Z dpk: i'm not seeing a huge amount of conversion to R7RS small, either, to be honest. though second-class support (which seems to be as far as Guile and Chicken are willing to go at this stage) is, i guess, better than no support, which is what R6RS got from existing implementations 2021-03-03T22:43:12Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T22:43:41Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, I haven't seen any rush to pick up R7RS-large libraries, even among Schemes with good R7-small support. 2021-03-03T22:44:39Z Zipheir: I was just thinking today that it was strange that most of the Red and Tangerine libraries have good implementations, but are sort of ... sitting around. 2021-03-03T22:45:24Z Zipheir: I'm not sure what can be done to spread them around, aside from porting efforts. 2021-03-03T22:45:54Z dieggsy: dpk: I feel like chicken's support is somewhere between first and second class lol. you can write a full r7rs program in a way that is provided by the chicken team 2021-03-03T22:46:15Z dieggsy: although I guess the fact that you have to install something does make it second class nvm 2021-03-03T22:46:55Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-03T22:47:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-03T22:47:50Z dpk: yeah, and no existing implementation has really adopted R7RS's library system wholesale, which is (imo) probably small's most important new feature compared to R5RS 2021-03-03T22:48:31Z dpk: indeed, i think Chicken's implementation isn't even quite complete, as far as i recall from the last time i looked 2021-03-03T22:50:39Z Zipheir: There was a lot of R7 work going on with CHICKEN: https://wiki.call-cc.org/r7rs-tasks But, noticeably, that page has seen no updates in 6 years. 2021-03-03T22:53:50Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-03T23:01:40Z dieggsy: dpk: no need to recall i guess: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/r7rs#limitations 2021-03-03T23:02:01Z dieggsy: of course one of the missing features is export renaming which i would absolutely love 2021-03-03T23:05:20Z jcowan: People often ask me: I can't do this R7RS feature on top of my existing code: what should I do? My answer is: List it as a derogation from the standard and don't worry about it. 2021-03-03T23:08:10Z jcowan: All the existing R7RS-large libs are portable, so even if they don't ship with an implementation of R7RS-small, they will work fine with it. 2021-03-03T23:09:02Z Zipheir: Good point. 2021-03-03T23:10:10Z Zipheir: Some need additional support, though. As much as I like the (scheme text) library, strings remain far easier to use with existing Scheme implementations. Well-integrated R7RS-large libraries would be a Good Thing. 2021-03-03T23:13:06Z Zipheir: I think that's the thing: integration. Lots of R5RS+ schemes with partial, not-very-well-fitting bits and pieces of R7 isn't great. 2021-03-03T23:14:34Z Zipheir: But until more people get enthusiastic about it or Scheme implementers get less grumpy and insular, that's what we've got. 2021-03-03T23:15:11Z dpk: if implementations which already have keyword arguments would add one hook, you could do SRFI 177 without call/kw with reasonable efficiency 2021-03-03T23:16:18Z dpk: that hook being apply/kw, where you supply the positional and keyword arguments to a procedure (whatever form the keyword arguments need to be in) as separate arguments 2021-03-03T23:16:51Z dpk: i.e. (apply/kw proc args kwargs) 2021-03-03T23:19:08Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T23:20:33Z jcowan: Here's what I consider to be good-enough implementations of R7 that predate its release: Chicken, Gauche, Kawa, Larceny, MIT, Sagittarius, STklos. 2021-03-03T23:22:36Z jcowan: for R6RS it was Chez, Guile, Larceny, Racket. 2021-03-03T23:24:45Z Zipheir: Definitely an improvement, IMO. 2021-03-03T23:24:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-03T23:28:56Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-03T23:29:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-03T23:29:47Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-03T23:31:38Z jcowan: on the "new implementations" side we have Chibi, Cyclone, Foment, Husk, Picrin for R7, Biwa, Ikarus/Vicare, Loko, Mosh, Sagittarius, Ypsilon. 2021-03-03T23:32:26Z jcowan: Racket's R7 is also good-enough though unofficial, and Gambit and Guile haven't yet released their R7 support. 2021-03-03T23:32:47Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-03T23:34:20Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-03T23:52:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T00:05:36Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T00:08:29Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-04T00:08:46Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-04T00:19:35Z jgart joined #scheme 2021-03-04T00:43:59Z Tirifto quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-03-04T00:51:38Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-03-04T00:52:18Z purpleLizard joined #scheme 2021-03-04T00:58:06Z oriba quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-04T01:08:48Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T01:10:46Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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Consider going to #chicken and finding out about it. 2021-03-04T03:15:25Z dieggsy: jcowan: #chicken is my #1 irc channel and i plan on joining their code jam in april :) 2021-03-04T03:15:46Z jcowan: Well, if you want R7 by default, go lobby for it. 2021-03-04T03:16:10Z dieggsy: i intend to 2021-03-04T03:16:33Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-04T03:17:33Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-03-04T03:17:53Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-03-04T03:20:37Z mdhughes: Obvs the version number should skip 6 if it's gonna follow R7-default. 2021-03-04T03:20:58Z dieggsy: hah 2021-03-04T03:21:49Z mdhughes: I'd rather see more people writing real software in Scheme than implementing new Schemes nobody will use to write real software. 2021-03-04T03:21:57Z dieggsy: agreed! 2021-03-04T03:25:31Z Zipheir: . o O { But isn't a new Scheme nobody will use to write real software real software? } 2021-03-04T03:25:42Z dieggsy: nope 2021-03-04T03:25:44Z dieggsy: heh 2021-03-04T03:34:04Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-04T03:38:48Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-04T03:53:06Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-04T03:58:48Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-04T04:02:37Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T04:02:52Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-04T04:16:37Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-03-04T04:25:43Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-04T04:27:49Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T04:34:28Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T04:46:27Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-03-04T05:07:42Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-04T05:10:04Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-03-04T05:22:07Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-03-04T05:24:32Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-04T05:29:13Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T05:35:19Z buhman joined #scheme 2021-03-04T05:36:01Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-03-04T05:37:33Z buhman: is there a simple way to just write little endian 32-bit integers to a file? I found I can do (write-u8vector (blob->u8vector (u32vector->blob (u32vector n)))) but that feels hacky and doesn't have an explicit endianness. 2021-03-04T05:42:08Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T05:46:13Z Zipheir: The R6/R7 bytevectors library has explicit endianness and more options in general http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-3.html#node_chap_2 2021-03-04T05:47:09Z Zipheir: But no I/O, unfortunately. 2021-03-04T05:48:46Z dieggsy: buhman: re: explicit endianness, you could just check the machine's endianness (if your scheme provides something like that) and reverse accordingly 2021-03-04T05:49:34Z Zipheir: https://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2012/04/byte-order-fallacy.html 2021-03-04T05:53:27Z dieggsy: Zipheir: nice. 2021-03-04T05:54:33Z dieggsy: the question kind of becomes why do you want to write little endian in the first place I guess 2021-03-04T05:55:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T06:00:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:12:49Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:16:17Z mdhughes: Presumably the file format specifies it. 2021-03-04T06:19:36Z Zipheir: I guess you're supposed to convert @vectors to bytevectors and use write-bytevector or write-u8. There's no I/O annex to SRFI 160. 2021-03-04T06:20:03Z Zipheir: In any case, you can write write-bytevector-le and -be using write-u8. 2021-03-04T06:21:07Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-04T06:22:19Z Zipheir: (And SRFI 4 doesn't provide anything beyond the vector types and constructors.) 2021-03-04T06:30:01Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:32:04Z ohama quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T06:32:30Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-04T06:33:02Z buhman: heh, I didn't realize r7rs doesn't even include bit manipulation--I need srfi-151 for that 2021-03-04T06:33:34Z buhman: I don't think this is possible then, with just r7rs. 2021-03-04T06:33:56Z ohama joined #scheme 2021-03-04T06:34:56Z buhman: dieggsy: maybe I'm writing a rv32i assembler 2021-03-04T06:36:47Z Zipheir: SRFI 151 is in R7-large, at least. 2021-03-04T06:39:00Z buhman: just seems like odd design priorities. I can construct the equivalent of a 4-byte little endian u8vector in C without even the stdlib. 2021-03-04T06:44:04Z Zipheir: R5RS and earlier standards didn't have bytevectors, let alone binary ports and I/O. 2021-03-04T06:48:20Z Zipheir: C is also, traditionally, a nearly untyped language that computes with bytes. Its priorities are quite different from Scheme's. 2021-03-04T06:52:42Z mdhughes: And if you actually want to get work done, R6RS has everything built in. R7's an incomplete spec, in several incomplete impls. 2021-03-04T06:53:46Z Zipheir: R7-small is complete, at least. 2021-03-04T06:54:20Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-04T06:54:27Z mdhughes: And not useful. 2021-03-04T06:55:11Z mdhughes: Whee, I can write a fibonacci sequence in the "complete" spec! 2021-03-04T06:55:13Z Zipheir: "Useful" always requires a goal to evaluate. Plenty can be done with what the small spec provides. 2021-03-04T06:55:47Z mdhughes: But not buhman's task, or anything you'd ship as an application. 2021-03-04T06:56:20Z Zipheir: You can implement a red-black tree dictionary library with just r7rs-small, for instance. 2021-03-04T06:56:27Z mdhughes: It's probably *possible*, but difficult, to implement all of the BASIC Computer Games in R7-small. 2021-03-04T06:56:52Z mdhughes: Some are going to require standing up a lot of infrastructure, to compete with the best technology of 1970. 2021-03-04T06:57:22Z buhman: it seems like "write an assembler for any real ISA" is a reasonable "real" task, and appears to be impossible to do in r7rs-small. 2021-03-04T06:57:23Z mdhughes: s/1970/1978/ 2021-03-04T06:57:59Z Zipheir: "You can now write a large number of useful programs with what we've covered, and it would probably be best if you put the book down and did." (Kernighan & Ritchie, after introducing getchar, putchar, and printf) 2021-03-04T06:58:05Z mdhughes: Correct. Almost certainly needs a ton more bit-twiddling. 2021-03-04T06:58:39Z mdhughes: Zipheir: I agree, the C spec up to that point is significantly more useful than R7-small. 2021-03-04T06:59:27Z jgart quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T06:59:32Z Zipheir: Again, "useful" used without context. 2021-03-04T07:00:12Z Zipheir: Bit-twiddling is a notable not-included of R7RS-small. 2021-03-04T07:00:21Z buhman: "implement any binary network protocol" is also not possible. 2021-03-04T07:00:49Z buhman: (not even including doing IO, just the protocol) 2021-03-04T07:01:27Z Zipheir: That would probably be pretty painful with just the r7-small bytevector operations. 2021-03-04T07:01:50Z Zipheir: In any case, it's a bit late to change the spec. 2021-03-04T07:02:18Z mdhughes: (hashtable-set! *global-context* 'useful "Useful for software engineering to fully replace C") 2021-03-04T07:02:59Z mirrorbird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T07:03:01Z mirrorbird_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T07:03:14Z mdhughes: And for that context, really my advice is use CHICKEN + all the eggs you can stand to load, or Chez, or some other options if you don't mind digging harder for solutions. 2021-03-04T07:03:31Z Zipheir: Which doesn't clarify anything, but kicks the teleological can down the street! 2021-03-04T07:04:13Z Zipheir: And, anyway, SRFI 151 is widely available and quite rich. 2021-03-04T07:06:36Z buhman: of the r7rs(-ish) implementations I've tried, chicken seems to have the most useful error/stack printing. A (deep) typo in most other implementations usually results in an unreadable error. 2021-03-04T07:07:07Z snan: Espesh if you compile w/o -o5 2021-03-04T07:07:36Z snan: I'm like oh gosh darn I have error I've gotto recompile w/o o5 (I have a shell script that does that though) 2021-03-04T07:08:23Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-04T07:09:39Z Zipheir: I've never pushed that far into CHICKEN's optimization levels. 2021-03-04T07:10:42Z snan: Why? 2021-03-04T07:10:46Z Zipheir: I've never been happy with csc's ability to detect errors, but that's mainly due to lack of type information. 2021-03-04T07:11:46Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-04T07:12:16Z Zipheir: snan: Usually CHICKEN's output is fast enough for me without any optimizations on. 2021-03-04T07:12:24Z snan: Chicken was the third or fourth, I think third, Scheme I tried. I'm not sure what the first one was, I think Guile. It had awful error handling compared to the second which was Bigloo which was amazing, without it I wouldn't've been able to learn Scheme I think. But after just a few weeks I switched to Chicken. I really like the FFI♥ 2021-03-04T07:12:45Z Zipheir: It's quite UNIXy. 2021-03-04T07:12:58Z snan: I love that it's right at home among the other Unix stuff 2021-03-04T07:13:04Z snan: Worse is better♥♥♥ 2021-03-04T07:14:37Z Zipheir: Hah, I recall trying Guile early on and not loving it, as well. 2021-03-04T07:15:44Z Zipheir: But that might well have been my thinking in C terms and getting completely bewildered by all the recursion. 2021-03-04T07:15:57Z Zipheir: It seems like ages ago. 2021-03-04T07:16:51Z snan: This was in 2001 I think. For me I mean 2021-03-04T07:17:03Z snan: Maybe Guile is good now 2021-03-04T07:17:49Z snan: I also loved that chicken was the least boilerplaty. I get that you only save like three seconds per project but IDK I just really love a language that gets down to brass tacks right away. Aesthetically. 2021-03-04T07:18:44Z Zipheir: Scheme is like that. 2021-03-04T07:19:34Z snan: My irrational dislike for main() {} 2021-03-04T07:21:08Z Zipheir: I guess that's more of an imperative feature. Are there any functionally-oriented languages with required main procedures? 2021-03-04T07:22:17Z snan: There are imperative languages that don't have it, like QBasic. 2021-03-04T07:22:29Z snan: Also I am typing on the Atreus currently 2021-03-04T07:22:52Z snan: Not used to it♥ 2021-03-04T07:23:48Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:25:14Z mdhughes: But I find main very useful, so I can disable the automatic call of it and interact with the program from REPL. 2021-03-04T07:25:41Z snan: It's weird because I'd think imperative languages would have less of a need for it than functional 2021-03-04T07:25:51Z snan: huh 2021-03-04T07:26:03Z snan: Whuh happen to my control chars 2021-03-04T07:26:29Z snan: maybe this 2021-03-04T07:26:33Z mdhughes: A lot of scripting languages don't have required main. Perl, Python, Julia, etc. 2021-03-04T07:26:33Z snan: OK good 2021-03-04T07:27:12Z snan: This is also why I'm not into Zig or Golang because of all the explitness 2021-03-04T07:27:18Z snan: Python also 2021-03-04T07:27:19Z epony: Shell 2021-03-04T07:27:29Z dieggsy: snan: explitness? 2021-03-04T07:27:30Z snan: And why I love shell 2021-03-04T07:27:34Z epony: (the predecessor) 2021-03-04T07:27:43Z snan: Explicitness. I'm trying to learn a keyboard 2021-03-04T07:27:45Z Zipheir: Explicit content? 2021-03-04T07:27:46Z dieggsy: oh 2021-03-04T07:27:51Z dieggsy: i wouldn't call python explicit lol 2021-03-04T07:28:04Z dieggsy: ...i'd call it even less so than scheme, even 2021-03-04T07:28:11Z dieggsy: depending on what you mean 2021-03-04T07:28:17Z mdhughes: > import self 2021-03-04T07:28:18Z Zipheir: Isn't one of their slogans something about explicit being better than implicit? 2021-03-04T07:28:22Z mdhughes: explicit is better than implicit 2021-03-04T07:28:35Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:28:40Z mdhughes: > import this 2021-03-04T07:28:40Z snan: It is. 2021-03-04T07:28:44Z dieggsy: i mean..... 2021-03-04T07:29:20Z dieggsy: idk, i guess i'm just thinking about generic/overloaded operators like + and a[thing] or whatever 2021-03-04T07:29:32Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T07:29:36Z mdhughes: Also > import antigravity 2021-03-04T07:29:39Z dieggsy: where in scheme you have to be like string-thing list-thing whatever 2021-03-04T07:29:59Z snan: You can define + to be whatever 2021-03-04T07:30:01Z dieggsy: in python you sort of just treat everything like the same thing and do stuff to it lol 2021-03-04T07:30:03Z snan: lexically 2021-03-04T07:30:05Z Zipheir: "Scheme's relentless monomorphism", as jcowan (I think) says. 2021-03-04T07:30:26Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:30:32Z dieggsy: so idk, scheme does feel more 'explicit' in that sense i guess 2021-03-04T07:30:36Z snan: Yeah, I find myself having to break out coops often enough 2021-03-04T07:30:43Z dieggsy: it's very clear what everything does and everything does one thing 2021-03-04T07:30:47Z mdhughes: Usual way to assemble strings is (format). But I wrote a (cat) that just assembles known types without a format string. 2021-03-04T07:30:50Z dieggsy: snan: ack, for what? 2021-03-04T07:31:09Z snan: But you can still do (define + complete frobnication with thousands of side effects) 2021-03-04T07:31:26Z dieggsy: snan: if just for generics, you may find this benchmark interesting lol: https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=0b02be3aa63537b369f731f5e656fdb6da99756d 2021-03-04T07:31:50Z dieggsy: tldr coops is the second slowest way we have of defining generics in chicken, fast-generic being the best 2021-03-04T07:32:13Z snan: That's great, thank you 2021-03-04T07:32:33Z dieggsy: ....and the generics egg being cosmically slower.... i kid, but almost 2 orders of magnitude 2021-03-04T07:36:33Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:37:28Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T07:39:47Z kam1 quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-03-04T07:40:03Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-04T07:40:36Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:44:31Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T07:52:59Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-04T07:53:30Z ecraven joined #scheme 2021-03-04T07:55:30Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-04T07:57:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:00:45Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:02:28Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T08:11:48Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:13:50Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:18:46Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T08:27:38Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T08:27:57Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:28:42Z nmeum_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:29:22Z duncanm_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:29:22Z rudybot: la la la 2021-03-04T08:29:45Z Duns_Scrotus_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:29:49Z kwmiebach_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:29:52Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:29:55Z Balooga_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:29:58Z ec_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:30:00Z buhman_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:30:01Z englishm__ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:30:02Z dnm_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:30:03Z astronavt joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:31:18Z dTal_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:32:33Z randy7_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:33:41Z gwhat joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:34:00Z krjt joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:34:27Z cky944 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:34:36Z rmrfchik joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:35:24Z rubic joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z randy7 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z nmeum quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z buhman quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z lockywolf_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z astronavt___ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z dTal quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z ec quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z duncanm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z Duns_Scrotus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z kwmiebach quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z englishm_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z dnm quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z rubic88 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:31Z Kooda quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z cky quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z jcowan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z Balooga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z iv4nshm4k0v quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z gwatt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:32Z krjst quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-04T08:43:33Z duncanm_ is now known as duncanm 2021-03-04T08:43:38Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2021-03-04T08:43:39Z buhman_ is now known as buhman 2021-03-04T08:43:41Z dnm_ is now known as dnm 2021-03-04T08:43:43Z Duns_Scrotus_ is now known as Duns_Scrotus 2021-03-04T08:43:45Z Balooga_ is now known as Balooga 2021-03-04T08:43:46Z kwmiebach_ is now known as kwmiebach 2021-03-04T08:43:49Z ec_ is now known as ec 2021-03-04T08:44:09Z jeko_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T08:45:53Z jeko quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T08:46:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T09:05:34Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T09:06:10Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-04T09:08:05Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T09:10:46Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-04T09:18:20Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-04T09:27:42Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2021-03-04T09:39:47Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-04T09:53:23Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-04T10:08:52Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T10:18:07Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-04T10:19:46Z foof`: sure you can write an assembler in R7, see sassy 2021-03-04T10:22:06Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-04T10:42:30Z richbridger quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T10:48:13Z siraben: assembler in Scheme? plugging my Z80 assembler :P https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80 2021-03-04T10:55:34Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T11:58:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T12:03:24Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T12:37:49Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T12:43:16Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-04T12:47:10Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T12:47:15Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-04T12:47:47Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T12:48:18Z srandon111 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T12:52:27Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-04T12:53:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T12:58:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T13:11:50Z tobito joined #scheme 2021-03-04T13:22:01Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T13:30:03Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T13:30:37Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T13:30:45Z iv4nshm4k0v joined #scheme 2021-03-04T13:33:17Z jacobpdq[d] joined #scheme 2021-03-04T13:38:22Z randy7_ is now known as randy7 2021-03-04T13:57:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T13:59:21Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:02:00Z jacobpdq[d] quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-04T14:02:00Z [d] quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-04T14:03:35Z mirrorbird_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T14:13:00Z Noisytoot: Zipheir: Haskell has a required main procedure 2021-03-04T14:13:52Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T14:14:15Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:15:04Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:15:10Z notzmv is now known as Guest44840 2021-03-04T14:18:34Z Guest44840 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T14:19:11Z notzmv- joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:20:10Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:21:45Z egp__ quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-03-04T14:22:09Z egp_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:23:59Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:25:06Z egp_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T14:25:28Z JokerAscensionEx joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:26:19Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T14:26:37Z JokerAscensionEx joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:27:41Z notzmv- is now known as notzmv 2021-03-04T14:28:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T14:28:21Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:34:01Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:37:05Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T14:42:17Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:51:23Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T14:52:43Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T14:54:40Z tobito quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:55:48Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T14:56:25Z dpk: jcowan: i'm thinking more about the keyword arguments problem. how important is it that procedures defined using an implementation's native keyword argument system can be called using a hypothetical R7RS system, vs that procedures defined using R7RS keyword arguments can be called using the implementation's native notation for it? there are two directions for the interoperability problem, the latter being fairly easy to solve 2021-03-04T14:56:37Z dpk: it's only the former that could cause problems 2021-03-04T14:59:01Z dpk: and even then, it's a question of context. should the implementation notation work in R7RS code? should the R7RS notation work in implementation-specific code? 2021-03-04T15:00:02Z dpk: my impression is that most implementations which have adopted R7RS in some way have, at least so far, done so using some kind of mode switch in the interpreter, either on top of an existing system for supporting multiple dialects (like Racket's #!lang), or by importing a module (like Chicken's (use r7rs)), or whatever, so *somewhere* in the system it has an idea of 'this is R7RS code' or 'this is non-R7RS Chicken/Gerbil/Guile/whatever code' 2021-03-04T15:01:09Z dpk: and when it thinks 'this is R7RS code' it could just spot when a keyword procedure is called and internally rewrite the R7RS syntax into whatever it expects internally 2021-03-04T15:01:34Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-04T15:02:19Z dpk: i'm well outside the realm of what's "portable" in the 'implementable in R7RS Small' sense here, and also making assumptions about implementations about which it would be nice to have some implementor input 2021-03-04T15:02:55Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T15:04:52Z dpk: but, seen thus, this problem does not seem quite so intractable as, e.g., that of building an interoperable error discrimination system on top of the utterly disparate systems various Schemes currently have, which is (iirc) something the R7RS Large effort has also undertaken to attempt 2021-03-04T15:13:23Z gwhat quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-04T15:13:33Z gwatt joined #scheme 2021-03-04T15:21:01Z dpk: it would also presumably be possible to use native keyword procedure calls in R7RS code if the assumptions here are correct (though not vice versa), providing an 'upgrade path', as it were, for code which is currently implementation-specific but would like to become R7RS compatible 2021-03-04T15:23:15Z dpk: (some Schemes like Racket and Chicken have rather impressive third-party package libraries — it would be nice if R7RS succeeded in providing a large enough, widely-enough supported portable core and they were updated by their maintainers to become usable on multiple implementations) 2021-03-04T15:33:44Z Noisytoot: dpk: Racket's is #lang, not #!lang 2021-03-04T15:38:50Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-04T15:45:48Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-04T15:51:29Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T15:51:52Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T15:52:28Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T15:56:58Z ggole joined #scheme 2021-03-04T16:00:18Z tobito joined #scheme 2021-03-04T16:00:59Z tobito quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T16:01:14Z tobito joined #scheme 2021-03-04T16:12:58Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T16:13:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T16:18:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T16:18:51Z jeko_ quit (Quit: jeko_) 2021-03-04T16:21:59Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-04T16:32:00Z tobito quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T16:32:18Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-04T16:38:46Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-04T16:57:19Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T16:57:25Z u0_a61 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T17:04:23Z u0_a611 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T17:04:31Z u0_a61 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-03-04T17:04:31Z u0_a611 is now known as Wezl 2021-03-04T17:10:27Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:17:10Z Garbanzo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T17:17:38Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-03-04T17:23:15Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:26:41Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-04T17:27:32Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T17:29:22Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:29:56Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-04T17:39:19Z Zipheir: Noisytoot: Duh, Haskell. I was clearly overtired last night. 2021-03-04T17:42:41Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-04T17:54:23Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-04T17:55:42Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T17:56:14Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T17:57:53Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-03-04T17:59:05Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T18:00:41Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:01:31Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:02:19Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T18:04:06Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:05:25Z seepel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-04T18:05:56Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:08:35Z jeko quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T18:09:53Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:14:18Z amirouche: how practical and necessary is the next method as part of generics? 2021-03-04T18:14:20Z amirouche: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/generic.html 2021-03-04T18:14:57Z amirouche: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/lib/chibi/generic.scm 2021-03-04T18:15:17Z Zipheir: What does 'next' do? 2021-03-04T18:16:50Z amirouche: ;;> If multiple methods satisfy the arguments, the most recent method 2021-03-04T18:16:51Z amirouche: ;;> will be used. The special form \scheme{(call-next-method)} can be 2021-03-04T18:16:53Z amirouche: ;;> invoked to call the next most recent method with the same arguments 2021-03-04T18:16:57Z amirouche: next is call-next-method 2021-03-04T18:18:09Z amirouche: the problem I have with `next` is in `the most _recent_ method`, hence it depends on import order or something along that line, which is scary to me 2021-03-04T18:19:25Z Zipheir: Yeah. 2021-03-04T18:20:17Z Zipheir: Especially if you don't supply types and just get the last unary/binary/.../nary method. 2021-03-04T18:23:11Z amirouche: the next method is the next method that is satisfied: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/969f24db966febe2e8a489cc6fae5a86eda0e312/lib/chibi/generic.scm#L52-L56 2021-03-04T18:23:12Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/cgyQ57xQXg 2021-03-04T18:23:30Z amirouche: so it is valid to call it at least as far as arity or typing goes. 2021-03-04T18:23:41Z Zipheir: I really like the typeclass-based datatype generic system discussed by Gibbons, which reduces the whole issue of generic programming to a matter of finding common structure among types https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/jeremy.gibbons/publications/dgp.pdf 2021-03-04T18:26:10Z Zipheir: Actually, http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/jeremy.gibbons/publications/hodgp-journal.pdf is more specific. 2021-03-04T18:26:52Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:27:00Z Zipheir: I have no idea if Scheme could actually support something functionally equivalent to the Bifunctor class, e.g., that Gibbons uses. 2021-03-04T18:27:33Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T18:29:04Z Zipheir: Nah, that's easy. 2021-03-04T18:29:34Z amirouche: yapuka! 2021-03-04T18:30:04Z amirouche: (written french slang saying to say 'let's do it') 2021-03-04T18:30:52Z amirouche: (yapuka = il y a plus qu'a ~ it only remains to be done) 2021-03-04T18:31:19Z Zipheir: That's fantastic. 2021-03-04T18:31:23Z amirouche: ^^' 2021-03-04T18:32:30Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:34:50Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T18:37:28Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:39:15Z evdubs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-04T18:43:12Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-04T18:44:37Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:46:50Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:51:56Z jcowan: Spoken French is a very strange language by European standards 2021-03-04T18:52:30Z jcowan: if not for the vocabulary, we'd think it belonged in North America, perhaps on the Pacific coast. 2021-03-04T18:54:39Z Noisytoot: jcowan: It also belongs in Canada 2021-03-04T18:54:57Z jcowan: Historically yes, typologically no 2021-03-04T18:55:45Z amirouche: yapuka is the sound "il y a plus qu'a" makes when told (quickly) 2021-03-04T18:55:57Z jcowan: Right 2021-03-04T18:56:58Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T18:56:59Z jcowan: Ebglish can do that too, as in (French orthography) djitdjèt 2021-03-04T18:57:21Z jcowan: or rather djitdjette 2021-03-04T18:57:36Z amoe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-04T18:57:44Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-04T18:58:34Z amirouche try to guess 2021-03-04T18:59:00Z amirouche: in french, djette could be the female dj. 2021-03-04T19:04:37Z Zipheir: I find spoken French massively difficult. In fact, learning to speak any natural language after an early age seems massively difficult. 2021-03-04T19:08:46Z jcowan: "'I wish life was not so short,' he thought. 'Languages take such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." --Tolkien, _The Last Road_ 2021-03-04T19:12:44Z Zipheir: Now, reading and writing I find plausible to pick up in under a few decades. Listening and speaking, nope. 2021-03-04T19:13:44Z dieggsy: dpk: chicken's (import r7rs) is less like "this is r7rs code" and more like "do your thing but also r7rs exists btw". we actually just had a neat discussion about strict r7rs environments in chicken 2021-03-04T19:13:57Z dieggsy: which is possible, but requires a bit more than just importing r7rs 2021-03-04T19:14:10Z jcowan: amirouche: Have you given up yet? 2021-03-04T19:14:49Z jcowan: Zipheir: My biggest problem is my brain is too full to stuff more vocabulary into it 2021-03-04T19:14:57Z jcowan: or so it seems 2021-03-04T19:19:05Z amirouche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T19:19:30Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-04T19:26:11Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-04T19:34:20Z dTal_ is now known as dTal 2021-03-04T19:37:54Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-04T19:41:19Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-04T19:55:58Z dpk: jcowan: what was it ... French is essentially what happens when Germans and Celts try to learn Latin and give up halfway through? 2021-03-04T19:57:24Z parse quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-04T19:58:08Z jcowan: That's not on my EE page, but I've added it to the queue. 2021-03-04T19:59:00Z dpk: there are a good half a dozen i’ve sent you over the years that i don’t think actually made it into the page yet 2021-03-04T19:59:09Z jcowan: The closest is: French is what happened when Germans tried to learn Latin and said "screw it." 2021-03-04T19:59:16Z jcowan: yes, I haven't published a new edition in years 2021-03-04T19:59:31Z jcowan: the process is annoyingly archaic and manual 2021-03-04T19:59:36Z jcowan: but I do keep then' 2021-03-04T19:59:38Z jcowan: them 2021-03-04T19:59:51Z dpk: of which my favourite is probably still that English is the Germanic language that thinks it’s a Romance language, and Romansch is the Romance language that thinks it’s a Germanic language 2021-03-04T20:00:22Z jcowan: Okay, I've put that in too just in case 2021-03-04T20:00:39Z dpk: although your page isn’t laid out to show the pairing of the two 2021-03-04T20:04:38Z jcowan: I'll probably put it under English 2021-03-04T20:04:55Z jcowan: or invert it and put it under Romansch, mayb 2021-03-04T20:08:01Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-03-04T20:16:13Z Zipheir: "My romansch doeschn't need a caschle risching in Schpain..." 2021-03-04T20:22:03Z Zipheir: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCO1Gd0jRto) 2021-03-04T20:24:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T20:39:19Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-03-04T20:46:10Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-04T20:57:17Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-04T20:59:03Z nilgeisw quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-04T21:02:21Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-04T21:09:37Z actuallybatman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-04T21:16:53Z oriba joined #scheme 2021-03-04T21:23:32Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T21:27:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T21:27:57Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-04T21:30:03Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-04T21:30:21Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-04T21:30:22Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-04T21:42:08Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-04T21:42:40Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-03-04T21:51:44Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-04T21:55:11Z nalaginrut joined #scheme 2021-03-04T22:01:28Z daviid: i think the correct expression is 'il n'y a plus qu'à ...' 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But i still have no idea what call/cc does? is there any resource that explains it? 2021-03-05T12:55:16Z mdhughes: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/further.html#./further:h3 2021-03-05T12:55:45Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T12:56:38Z amirouche: (define (understanding-call-cc) (call/cc (lambda (k) (k 'nop) 'englightement))) 2021-03-05T12:58:59Z Wezl is now known as schemebot 2021-03-05T12:59:10Z schemebot: #<(lambda () 'nop)> 2021-03-05T12:59:13Z schemebot is now known as Wezl 2021-03-05T13:02:46Z mdhughes: Today's irritant: char=? doesn't require 2+ arguments. (char=? #\x22) is always true, where (char=? c #\x22) may not be. 2021-03-05T13:04:02Z amirouche: IIRC so does boolean=? 2021-03-05T13:04:46Z amirouche: no sorry, chez does not allow single argument with boolean=? 2021-03-05T13:05:01Z amirouche: at least chez ;) 2021-03-05T13:05:10Z jcowan: Think about "Are the characters in this list all the same?" 2021-03-05T13:05:34Z jcowan: (apply char=? list) will return #t even if the list is of length 1. 2021-03-05T13:06:27Z theruran quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-05T13:10:12Z mdhughes: I think that's not a useful expression, and other operators generally require 2+arity. 2021-03-05T13:11:11Z amirouche: (neither does chibi accept (boolean=? arg)) 2021-03-05T13:12:12Z mdhughes: string=? is also dangerous, but equal? is not. 2021-03-05T13:15:09Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-05T13:26:32Z siraben: To understand call/cc you must understand continuations, to understand continuations you must understand effects, to understand effects you must understand monads ;) 2021-03-05T13:28:11Z siraben: Half-joking but seeing the types laid out for CPS and the type of callCC in Haskell made me understand call/cc in Scheme a lot better. 2021-03-05T13:31:26Z mdhughes: At least the easy uses of call/cc make sense. You don't need to implement a whole interpreter in CPS to just use call/cc for early returns. 2021-03-05T13:32:41Z mdhughes: But in my active projects, I have… 11 uses of call/cc. You can mostly avoid it. 2021-03-05T13:33:29Z siraben: Oleg has a great page on why call/cc is a poor primitive http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html 2021-03-05T13:38:36Z taw10: idksomeone: I know this doesn't help at all, but I can't remember when I started understanding call/cc - I think I just went straight from not being able to wrap my head around it, to feeling like I'd always understood it. The concept is not difficult, I think it's just difficult to put into words. Here is my attempt: "call/cc applied to a procedure f creates a pseudo-procedure and feeds it as an argument 2021-03-05T13:38:42Z taw10: to f. Calling that pseudo-procedure behaves the same as returning from f... even if you pass the pseudo-procedure down to deeper levels" 2021-03-05T13:41:42Z mdhughes: Doesn't even have to be deeper levels. Store a continuation in a global or return it somewhere, and you can reuse it way out of context. 2021-03-05T13:42:47Z taw10: Yep, I didn't want to make it even more complicated :) 2021-03-05T13:44:02Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-05T13:44:26Z taw10: Once you get your head around call/cc, you can switch to the other ways of handling continuations that aren't so anti-recommended, e.g. delimited continuations 2021-03-05T13:44:54Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T13:45:00Z u0_a61 joined #scheme 2021-03-05T13:49:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-05T13:51:30Z taw10: The Guile manual has quite a good explanation, including one aspect of why it's not always a good idea: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Continuations.html 2021-03-05T13:59:02Z u0_a61 is now known as Wezl 2021-03-05T14:06:53Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-03-05T14:09:37Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T14:13:00Z jcowan: I would say 99% of my call/cc uses are to return from nested loops, and so I usually call the escape procedure "return" 2021-03-05T14:14:49Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T14:15:05Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-05T14:22:39Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-05T14:23:39Z polezaivsani quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T14:29:02Z mdhughes: Of the 11, 10 are break or return, 1 is a generator. 2021-03-05T14:35:26Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T14:37:00Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-05T15:00:19Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-05T15:08:00Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-05T15:21:57Z jcowan: So delimited one-shots would work nicely for ten of them. Only one of the SRFI 158 generators uses call/cc; the others encapsulate state (most obviously make-list-generator, which encapsulates the remaining tail of the list). 2021-03-05T15:27:45Z amirouche: I use k, escape or return. 2021-03-05T15:28:08Z amirouche: k is fallback 2021-03-05T15:28:11Z amirouche: k is a fallback 2021-03-05T15:35:32Z lockywolf quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-05T15:37:07Z snan: I like break 2021-03-05T15:37:20Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-05T15:38:25Z snan: As seen in https://idiomdrottning.org/tree.scm 2021-03-05T15:39:13Z snan: Huh... I now see that some of those named lets could be folds 2021-03-05T15:40:14Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T15:40:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-05T15:41:26Z amirouche: TIL break 2021-03-05T15:45:23Z mdhughes: Just programs-C-in-any-language-ism. If I'm wrapping a loop so I can escape, it's named break. 2021-03-05T15:46:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T16:06:22Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-05T16:06:50Z Garbanzo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T16:07:32Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-03-05T16:22:36Z jj- joined #scheme 2021-03-05T16:30:58Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T16:37:37Z ech joined #scheme 2021-03-05T16:45:02Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-05T16:50:52Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-05T16:56:46Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-05T16:58:54Z Wezl: is there a named let*? 2021-03-05T17:01:01Z wasamasa: csi seems to know that concept 2021-03-05T17:02:25Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T17:07:04Z Zipheir: Wezl: How would that work? 2021-03-05T17:07:57Z wasamasa: (let* ((foo 1) (bar foo)) (display (list foo bar)) (newline)) 2021-03-05T17:08:20Z Zipheir: (let foo ((x ...) (y )) ...) ? 2021-03-05T17:08:29Z Zipheir: Right. 2021-03-05T17:08:32Z Wezl: I just wanted to make sure the initial values for the arguments in a named let were evaluated in order 2021-03-05T17:08:45Z Wezl: but I fixed it with a named let inside a let 2021-03-05T17:08:56Z Wezl: it still would have been convenient 2021-03-05T17:09:20Z Zipheir: You can fix argument evaluation order by using let* around the call to the named let. 2021-03-05T17:09:28Z ecraven: jcowan: was named let* ever considered? 2021-03-05T17:10:51Z jcowan: Not that I know of. In any case, it would only affect the first time through; when you call the name, it's just a procedure and you don't get special treatment. 2021-03-05T17:10:57Z Zipheir: e.g. (let foo ((x ...) (y ...)) ... (let* ((y* ...) (x* ...)) (foo x* y*)) ;; ensures that y* gets evaluated befor x* 2021-03-05T17:11:14Z jcowan: I often find myself writing (let loop ((a a) (b b) ...) ...) 2021-03-05T17:11:18Z ecraven: hm.. I've run into wanting it too a few times 2021-03-05T17:11:36Z Zipheir: Fixable with let*. 2021-03-05T17:11:41Z jcowan: Well, write a SRFI then. It's simple enough. 2021-03-05T17:12:17Z ecraven: yea, but it doesn't seem useful enough, especially as - as you said - we don't actually want to change the evaluation semantics of the loop call, just the initialisation 2021-03-05T17:13:11Z Zipheir: The more general idea is some way to control the evaluation order of parameters. 2021-03-05T17:14:14Z Zipheir: Not that I think that's a good idea, but that's the broader implication. 2021-03-05T17:17:25Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-03-05T17:19:30Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-05T17:40:03Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T17:43:54Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-05T17:50:23Z oriba joined #scheme 2021-03-05T17:59:03Z jcowan: Fexprs again. ~~ sigh ~~ 2021-03-05T17:59:51Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-05T18:05:20Z lucb joined #scheme 2021-03-05T18:10:52Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T18:14:10Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-05T18:16:16Z jcowan: It would be nice if we had a reader macro $(+ a b) which expanded to (lambda () (+ a b)). 2021-03-05T18:18:14Z snan: cut is in base, right? 2021-03-05T18:18:21Z snan: Insta thunk 2021-03-05T18:18:30Z snan: Well, almost 2021-03-05T18:18:49Z snan: As long as you don't need vars used several times within one thunk 2021-03-05T18:19:54Z sdu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T18:20:57Z snan: But (cut + a b) works. 2021-03-05T18:21:10Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-03-05T18:22:12Z snan: Uh, forgot about the nick highlighting thing: jcowan 2021-03-05T18:22:29Z jcowan: Yes 2021-03-05T18:23:37Z snan: And ofc if a and b are invariant then constantly 2021-03-05T18:23:59Z snan: But that doesn't defer the eval which is why you use a thunk in the first place usually 2021-03-05T18:39:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T18:40:29Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-05T18:40:57Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-05T18:41:05Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T18:42:42Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-05T18:44:33Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-05T18:49:16Z rj quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-05T18:55:52Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-05T18:59:35Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:04:26Z jcowan: Algol thunks aren't quite the same as Scheme thunks, though; in Algol the thunk returns a pointer to the value rather than the value itself. So if you pass i where a procedure is expected, then i (in the caller) can be updated by the callee. 2021-03-05T19:07:59Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-05T19:18:57Z gwatt: jcowan: $(+ a b) => (lambda () (+ a b)) sounds super close to delay 2021-03-05T19:19:40Z jcowan: Indeed, that would be a better expansion, though it would need a corresponding reader macro for delay-force. 2021-03-05T19:20:26Z Zipheir: Except that promises aren't necessarily procedures, so you can't e.g. (call-with-values (delay (values 1 2)) ...) 2021-03-05T19:21:05Z gwatt: I think I like delayed expression being procedures. 2021-03-05T19:23:04Z gwatt: I know there's no requirement, but I still prefer that implementation detail over a distinct object type 2021-03-05T19:24:08Z Zipheir: I wonder if there's a Scheme in which ((delay 'foo)) works. 2021-03-05T19:24:47Z gwatt: chez 2021-03-05T19:26:59Z Zipheir: Oh, huh. 2021-03-05T19:29:21Z jcowan: In addition, Racket, Gauche, Gambit, Chicken, Kawa, NexJ, STklos, TinyScheme, RScheme, XLisp, UMB, Oaklisp, SXM all allow you to force a non-promise. 2021-03-05T19:29:42Z jcowan: and it would probably be a one-line patch for all the rest. 2021-03-05T19:32:48Z lucb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-05T19:33:37Z pranavats joined #scheme 2021-03-05T19:34:03Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T19:34:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-05T19:34:37Z amirouche: yapluka! 2021-03-05T19:34:47Z amirouche: \cc daviid ;) 2021-03-05T19:35:54Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-05T19:37:32Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-05T19:38:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-05T19:39:12Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:39:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:45:53Z idksomeone quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-05T19:51:00Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-05T19:55:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-05T19:59:50Z daviid: :) 2021-03-05T20:00:55Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-05T20:11:18Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-05T20:12:55Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-03-05T20:13:35Z idksomeone joined #scheme 2021-03-05T20:17:42Z Noisytoot: What's the difference between delayed expressions and procedures? 2021-03-05T20:19:34Z gwatt: Noisytoot: Ultimately delay will use a procedure, but the response from delay is not required to be a procedure. 2021-03-05T20:20:07Z Noisytoot: If they do the same thing, what's the point of having both? 2021-03-05T20:20:20Z gwatt: Additionally, the delayed expression should only be evaluated once 2021-03-05T20:20:44Z amirouche1: delay will cache the result ? 2021-03-05T20:20:51Z amirouche1: +1 gwatt 2021-03-05T20:21:00Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-05T20:22:42Z amirouche1: my understanding is that (define zzz (delay (foobar))) (force zzz) (force zzz) will call foobar once 2021-03-05T20:24:02Z Wezl: right 2021-03-05T20:24:29Z gwatt: Ah, there's a tricky case where if the promise is defined recursively it's still only evaluated once. 2021-03-05T20:24:38Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-05T20:25:11Z Wezl: for tinyscheme, it binds zzz to the result of (force zzz), is this what it's supposed to do? 2021-03-05T20:25:47Z amirouche1: they maybe i am mistaken 2021-03-05T20:26:32Z Noisytoot: Will "(delay (foobar)) (delay (foobar))" evaluate (foobar) once or twice? 2021-03-05T20:26:44Z gwatt: Wezl: did you maybe miss a paren around (define zzz (delay (foobar))) ? 2021-03-05T20:27:23Z Wezl: gwatt: no 2021-03-05T20:27:29Z gwatt: Noisytoot: without also calling force, it will evaluate (foobar) never. 2021-03-05T20:27:55Z Noisytoot: I meant (force (delay (foobar))) (force (delay (foobar))) 2021-03-05T20:28:11Z gwatt: That will evaluate foobar twice 2021-03-05T20:28:12Z amirouche1: Noisytoot: it will be evaluated twice 2021-03-05T20:30:14Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T20:30:29Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-05T20:34:07Z amirouche1: oh lassi is not around 2021-03-05T20:35:24Z amirouche1: Noisytoot: what is the scheme implementation you use? 2021-03-05T20:36:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-05T20:36:22Z amirouche1: I am not sure what is the point of dealy et al. I tried it once with guile, and fallback to a lambda thunk 2021-03-05T20:36:22Z Noisytoot: The question wasn't about a specific implementation, but I use Guile and Racket 2021-03-05T20:36:59Z amirouche1: Noisytoot: i am not 100% sure, but 2 years ago delay and force were broken with guile 2021-03-05T20:37:03Z amirouche1: pre 3.x 2021-03-05T20:37:49Z amirouche1: the behavior was like: (dealy (foobar)) would not call foobar immediatly, force would call foobar every time. 2021-03-05T20:38:32Z Noisytoot: Guile 3.0.5 behaves properly 2021-03-05T20:38:36Z Noisytoot: I just tested it 2021-03-05T20:38:39Z amirouche1: good 2021-03-05T20:39:22Z gwatt: amirouche1: guile 2.0.13 also behaves properly 2021-03-05T20:39:23Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-05T20:39:41Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-05T20:39:47Z Noisytoot: As does Racket 7.9 2021-03-05T20:40:19Z amirouche1: well, I promise I do not want to put blame on guile. 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just run "scheme" and type in your expressions 2021-03-06T09:43:51Z edgar-rft: In Scheme that would be a REDL :-) 2021-03-06T10:23:04Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-03-06T10:24:09Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T10:37:12Z snan: Also note that, like edgar-rft writes, there needs to be a space between * and 2 2021-03-06T10:41:21Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T10:44:31Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T10:45:28Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-06T10:52:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-06T10:57:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T11:02:04Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T11:02:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-06T11:05:56Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-06T11:06:49Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-06T11:07:36Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-06T11:11:07Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T11:16:11Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T11:16:31Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-06T11:19:07Z mirrorbird quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-06T11:19:18Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-06T11:22:51Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-06T11:50:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T11:50:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-06T11:58:48Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-06T12:06:07Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-06T12:29:15Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-03-06T12:29:28Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-06T12:49:26Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-06T12:53:44Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-03-06T12:54:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-06T12:59:01Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T13:12:58Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-06T13:33:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-06T13:40:44Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T13:44:57Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T13:53:41Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:04:33Z oriba joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:05:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:05:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:06:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:06:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:07:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:07:30Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:08:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:08:31Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:08:33Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:08:34Z jacobpdq[d] joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:08:49Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-06T14:09:05Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:09:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:10:38Z thevishy joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:12:33Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T14:14:35Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:15:20Z dk657 joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:17:25Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T14:18:19Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T14:30:56Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T14:31:14Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T14:36:00Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:36:07Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:48:28Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:53:04Z spiegelau joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:53:45Z spiegelau: Hi all. Racket is great, but I want to start at a smaller language like MIT-scheme. But is there classes? No? Do you use records instead? 2021-03-06T14:55:43Z X-Scale: be welcome, spiegelau 2021-03-06T14:56:07Z spiegelau: Thanks 2021-03-06T14:56:13Z spiegelau: Does r6rs supports clases? 2021-03-06T14:56:19Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-06T14:57:27Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-06T15:05:20Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-06T15:06:56Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T15:25:50Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T15:26:05Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-06T15:34:46Z spiegelau quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-06T15:41:58Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T15:42:44Z [d] quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-06T15:42:44Z jacobpdq[d] quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-06T15:43:59Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-06T15:49:33Z amirouche1: is there a mit release of sxpath? 2021-03-06T15:50:09Z amirouche1: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/sxpath 2021-03-06T15:54:24Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-03-06T16:05:18Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-06T16:09:09Z xandkar1 joined #scheme 2021-03-06T16:09:55Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T16:13:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-06T16:15:42Z nckx is now known as jorts 2021-03-06T16:16:14Z ullbeking quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-06T16:17:36Z ullbeking joined #scheme 2021-03-06T16:17:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T16:18:56Z Wezl: what's the best way to simulate a lisp-2 in scheme? 2021-03-06T16:27:29Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-03-06T16:27:35Z jacobpdq[d] joined #scheme 2021-03-06T16:28:55Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-06T16:47:06Z Riviera joined #scheme 2021-03-06T17:03:04Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T17:12:54Z amirouche1: make-parameter? 2021-03-06T17:15:57Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2021-03-06T17:21:14Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-06T17:24:32Z mdhughes: spiegelau: R6RS has records with inheritance. 2021-03-06T17:25:29Z jorts is now known as nckx 2021-03-06T17:27:39Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T17:34:40Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-06T17:43:36Z yhsiveht joined #scheme 2021-03-06T17:45:40Z thevishy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T17:57:28Z Blkt quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-06T17:58:47Z Blkt joined #scheme 2021-03-06T18:14:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-06T18:18:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-06T18:19:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T18:21:19Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-06T18:32:22Z snan: amirouche: Lisp-2 is about namespace for car position, not about dynamic vs lexical scope 2021-03-06T18:33:04Z jacobpdq[d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T18:33:04Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T18:41:16Z amirouche: snan: you are correct. 2021-03-06T18:41:22Z amirouche: snan: what is car position? 2021-03-06T18:41:45Z amirouche: LISP-2 means different namespace for different types, right? 2021-03-06T18:42:15Z snan: Specifically, Lisp-2 means that there's a different namespace for functions that are being applied 2021-03-06T18:42:29Z amirouche really needs some Scheme holidays 2021-03-06T18:42:43Z snan: (car-position arg-position-1 arg-position-2) etc 2021-03-06T18:43:11Z amirouche: car position got it 2021-03-06T18:43:16Z snan: So in a Lisp-2 you can do (list list) etc 2021-03-06T18:43:32Z amirouche: what does (list list) supposed to do ? 2021-03-06T18:43:33Z snan: And those will be two different "list" namespaces 2021-03-06T18:43:41Z amirouche: ah yes correct. 2021-03-06T18:43:45Z snan: Well you might have a variable called list in a named let 2021-03-06T18:43:58Z snan: Instead of calling it lis or lst or whatever 2021-03-06T18:44:21Z amirouche: last few week they were several question about how to do CL-ism with scheme 2021-03-06T18:44:43Z snan: I really prefer Lisp-1, having them in the same namespace. Especially now that we have explicit renaming macros. 2021-03-06T18:45:02Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-06T18:45:02Z snan: (Lisp-2 meant less risk of collision when you were doing simple defmacros) 2021-03-06T18:45:16Z amirouche: snan: how does it relate to ER macros? My macro knowledge is weak. Is that about explicit hygiene? 2021-03-06T18:45:41Z amirouche: I just made up the expression "explicit hygiene" 2021-03-06T18:45:53Z snan: Haha yeah but it kinda makes sense here 2021-03-06T18:46:52Z snan: To avoid introducing names into the namespace you rename everything 2021-03-06T18:47:01Z snan: There's also implicit-renaming which is even sweeter 2021-03-06T18:47:59Z Zipheir: amirouche: The macro-procedure is passed a `rename' procedure, which you can call on an identifier to "hygenify" it. 2021-03-06T18:48:34Z Zipheir: Sort of a procedural #' (from syntax-case). 2021-03-06T18:48:36Z snan: On a defmacro Lisp-2 system you instead rename stuff manually using gensym but it's less bad if you trip up while trying to do so since the two namespaces won't collide with each other. So while there is some chance of that happening on a Lisp-2, on a Lisp-1 it's a huge issue which is why Scheme had such a hygiene hangup for the longest time 2021-03-06T18:49:05Z Zipheir: I think defmacro is a horrible, horrible thing. 2021-03-06T18:49:21Z snan: Enh… shoulders of giants 2021-03-06T18:50:29Z snan: I haven't used it... I did the On Lisp exercises using Dybvig's syntax-case. And I haven't used that since I found out about ir 2021-03-06T18:50:33Z Zipheir: Somehow books like Seibel's _Practical CL_ present writing unhygienic macros as "easy". The difficulties are enormous, and insoluble in general. 2021-03-06T18:50:52Z snan: Ir feels mentally similar to defmacro but w/o the problems 2021-03-06T18:51:37Z snan: 20 years later and I'm still a sucker for doing things in the wrong lang; did the Origami exercises with SRFI-1 2021-03-06T18:51:56Z snan: Although there is no deforesting hylomorphism 2021-03-06T18:52:07Z Zipheir: Oh, cool. I really like those exercises. 2021-03-06T18:52:34Z snan: Smooth learning curve on those ♥ 2021-03-06T18:52:45Z Zipheir: Until the end, when they get pretty awful. 2021-03-06T18:52:51Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-06T18:52:56Z snan: I have some left 2021-03-06T18:53:14Z snan: I'm just past the hylo part 2021-03-06T18:53:17Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-06T18:53:51Z Zipheir: The unfold exercises could benefit from https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/srfi-189 . 2021-03-06T18:53:57Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-06T18:55:08Z snan: Huh... Yeah, I had to look up what "Just" meant, in the context of Haskell 2021-03-06T18:55:40Z snan: I had something similar in my own crufty toolbox already 2021-03-06T18:56:12Z Zipheir: A variant of SRFI 1 unfold, unfold-maybe, would be useful; there are cases in which you want to fuse the mapper and successor procedures (e.g. to compute a value only once). 2021-03-06T18:56:56Z snan: Also to be able to break out but I guess that's why we call-with-current-continuation 2021-03-06T18:57:35Z Zipheir: Basically (define (unfold-maybe mproc seed) (maybe-ref (mproc seed) (lambda () '()) (lambda (x seed*) (cons x (unfold-maybe mproc seed*)))) 2021-03-06T18:57:59Z snan: Does Haskell memoize everything ever? In which case they wouldn't need that, right? 2021-03-06T18:58:03Z Zipheir: (Multiple-valued Maybes FTW.) 2021-03-06T18:58:05Z snan knows basically nothing about haskell 2021-03-06T18:58:37Z snan: I know to skip over all lines with :: in them because they are boring type stuff 2021-03-06T18:58:53Z snan: When reading code, that is 2021-03-06T18:59:02Z Zipheir: IIUC lazy evaluation avoids many of the "escape" uses of call/cc that Scheme code often has. 2021-03-06T18:59:03Z bandali: lol "boring" 2021-03-06T18:59:04Z amirouche: I was under the impression that defmacro problems with gensym were theorical ? 2021-03-06T18:59:29Z Zipheir: Type signatures provide a lot of useful semantic data. 2021-03-06T19:00:13Z snan: Normal languages: Hey, let's infer the types from the code! 2021-03-06T19:00:14Z snan: Haskell: Hey, let's infer the code from the types! 2021-03-06T19:00:14Z snan: So I guess not that boring 2021-03-06T19:00:44Z Zipheir: amirouche: Yes, but that doesn't help you when you start writing macros that inject identifiers. 2021-03-06T19:00:51Z snan: And then we have all the "it's good that the programmer has to type things twice just to make absolutely sure they know what they mean" type type languages 2021-03-06T19:01:06Z Zipheir: Which are those? 2021-03-06T19:02:01Z snan: Everytime someone uses typing as an argument for "it's good because the compiler finds my errors" like Java let's say 2021-03-06T19:02:41Z snan: I'm just got an unreasonable hangup against boilerplate 2021-03-06T19:03:05Z amirouche: well guess the code from the types is an interesting idea. 2021-03-06T19:03:30Z amirouche: it seems to me that is the point of program theorem or program proof like coq 2021-03-06T19:03:53Z amirouche: haskell bridge the gap between coq stuaff and turing language 2021-03-06T19:05:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-06T19:05:32Z Zipheir: snan: I'd suggest checking out The Little Typer at some point. Languages with full dependent types really give a different way of programming: it's a collaboration between you and the language, sort of, where the interpreter is constantly inferring code from the claims you've written. 2021-03-06T19:06:02Z snan: I'd read it with my red pen in hand, adversarially. But, maybe I'll come out of it defeated 2021-03-06T19:06:08Z snan: And converted 2021-03-06T19:06:22Z jcowan: A Lisp-2 reduces the probability that half-hygiene will bite you in the ass, but it still bites you just as hard when it does bite. 2021-03-06T19:06:32Z snan: jcowan: agree completely 2021-03-06T19:08:18Z snan: I sometimes think of el/la languages like the Romance languages similarly. The multiple anaphora sets help disambiguate some statements 2021-03-06T19:09:03Z snan: "She gave him $20" vs "He gave him $20": who gave whom what now? 2021-03-06T19:09:56Z snan: My brain really got wrecked over by learning lisp and lojban 2021-03-06T19:10:57Z snan: I wasn't arguing for Lisp-2, I prefer Lisp-1 for sure. Combinators forever♥ 2021-03-06T19:12:04Z snan: Typing: I don't mind typing for performance but I'd hope it could be inferred to some extent so I wouldn't have to type, or even read, them 2021-03-06T19:12:15Z snan: Uh.. Write out I mean 2021-03-06T19:12:25Z snan: Polyseme unintended theren 2021-03-06T19:12:29Z snan: there* 2021-03-06T19:17:18Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-06T19:20:26Z ech joined #scheme 2021-03-06T19:20:36Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-03-06T19:21:35Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T19:24:27Z snan: Really starting to like the Atreus keyboard so much 2021-03-06T19:25:47Z Perkol joined #scheme 2021-03-06T19:34:08Z torbjornsd joined #scheme 2021-03-06T19:35:16Z torbjornsd quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-06T19:35:19Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-06T19:37:07Z Zipheir: "Types provide the means / to put the meaning on machines / to program computation as an act of explanation" (Conor McBride) 2021-03-06T19:37:33Z snan: That sounds like mandatory comments 2021-03-06T19:37:57Z Zipheir: It's nice to be able to write what claims you believe about data, and to have a program which can confirm that those beliefs hold. 2021-03-06T19:37:58Z snan: I like the poem though 2021-03-06T19:38:10Z snan: I just never got into that desire 2021-03-06T19:38:35Z amirouche1: my code has no bugs, I do not need dependant types. 2021-03-06T19:38:46Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-06T19:39:04Z amirouche1: :D 2021-03-06T19:39:12Z snan: I mean I've written buggy Haskell too. The spec can be wrong💔 2021-03-06T19:41:15Z Zipheir: amirouche1: The point is not just about bugs. We think in terms of typed data, usually, in the sense that we always have an idea of what its properties are and of what we can do with it. 2021-03-06T19:41:31Z Zipheir: You can't really compute with a datum you know *nothing* about. 2021-03-06T19:41:39Z snan: I mean, that sounds like a mindset, but not the universal mindset 2021-03-06T19:42:02Z amirouche1: Zipheir: that was sarcasm, I would like to try haskell, but the syntax is ... strange. 2021-03-06T19:42:09Z Zipheir: OK, how do you compute with a completely typeless thing? 2021-03-06T19:42:10Z jcowan: snan: "Il retira le manuscrit de la serviette et le/la jeta dans la mer." 2021-03-06T19:42:33Z jcowan: Zipheir: Very, very carefully, as in assembly language, where types are only in the programmer's head. 2021-03-06T19:42:54Z Zipheir: jcowan: My point exactly. The type is, at least, in your head. 2021-03-06T19:43:09Z Zipheir: I mean, a *conceptually* typeless thing: you can't do much at all. 2021-03-06T19:43:32Z jcowan: Ah, true. 2021-03-06T19:44:52Z snan: My least favorite part of any Scheme program is all the number->string etc stuff 2021-03-06T19:46:17Z snan: I sometimes think of them as numbers that I can add, multiply etc, and sometimes as strings, I can ref, pick out individual digits (yeah yeah I know about log), add % signs, string-rep zeros to fours or whatever 2021-03-06T19:46:37Z snan: I just want to think of things more freely 2021-03-06T19:48:24Z snan: I have a list or vector full of things that I can shuffle around and operate on and sometimes those combinators operate on strings and sometimes on ports and sometimes on doshes 2021-03-06T19:50:03Z snan: Most of my programs in progress have at least one (define (frobnicate ...) ...) that I rename once I know what it does 2021-03-06T19:50:16Z snan: Let alone what types it frobnicates 2021-03-06T19:50:17Z Zipheir: You can shuffle conceptually untyped objects around. 2021-03-06T19:50:29Z Zipheir: Interesting. 2021-03-06T19:51:37Z snan: I know Haskell has a class hierarchy so you can refer to a supertype. So you're not that tightly bound 2021-03-06T19:51:56Z snan: I mean, that was meant as a concession to Haskell, not a slag on it 2021-03-06T19:52:01Z Zipheir: There are no supertypes in Haskell, just typeclasses. 2021-03-06T19:52:17Z snan: Oh really! 2021-03-06T19:52:49Z Zipheir: Yup. I mean, some typeclasses require instances of others, e.g. a Monad has to also be an Applicative and a Functor. 2021-03-06T19:52:52Z snan: Are Reals Nums? 2021-03-06T19:53:15Z Zipheir: They *implement* Num, in the sense that certain operations are defined on them. 2021-03-06T19:53:51Z Zipheir: There's no "object" hierarchy, I guess. Classes are defined by functions. 2021-03-06T19:54:00Z Zipheir: Exactly like SRFI 128 comparators. 2021-03-06T19:54:15Z snan: If I make a function that work on nums, can it work on reals? 2021-03-06T19:54:21Z Zipheir: Yeah. 2021-03-06T19:54:31Z snan: That's kinda what I meant, in my concession 2021-03-06T19:54:33Z Zipheir: foo :: Num n => n -> n 2021-03-06T19:54:39Z Zipheir: (Works on reals.) 2021-03-06T19:54:44Z snan: I can make a function that works on "vague things" 2021-03-06T19:55:10Z Zipheir: Sure, provided you can define some very abstract Vague typeclass. 2021-03-06T19:56:10Z snan: Like how in Scheme, lists aren't specific to what can be in those lists 2021-03-06T19:56:59Z snan: I've half-burned-away memories of having to use languages where collections where typed, as in, you had to write the same code for a list of bazzes as for a list of quuxes 2021-03-06T19:57:10Z snan: That was pretty awful 2021-03-06T19:57:33Z Zipheir: Haskell has two kinds of polymorphism: parametric and typeclass (or "ad-hoc"). The parametric version is, for example, show by map :: (a -> b) -> List a -> List b 2021-03-06T19:57:53Z snan: Obv not Haskell. But earlier versions of C++, Java... Unless my memory is tripping me up completely 2021-03-06T19:57:56Z Zipheir: Unlike Scheme, a (List a) can only contain a values. 2021-03-06T19:58:34Z Zipheir: I think boilerplate like that usually suggests an abstraction failure. 2021-03-06T19:58:48Z Zipheir: (Ditto "design patterns".) 2021-03-06T19:59:28Z amirouche1: contain values of a given typeclass? 2021-03-06T19:59:45Z Zipheir: amirouche1: What does? 2021-03-06T19:59:49Z amirouche1: the purpose of a list is to have several values 2021-03-06T19:59:53Z snan: Design patterns are great. I mean the specific GoF design patterns are ridiculous to someone who has an extensible language like Lisp, but, we in the Lisp world have our own design patterns 2021-03-06T19:59:59Z snan: They are usually short lived because they become macros instead 2021-03-06T20:00:22Z snan: Which basically things like Ruby on Rails or Cocoa Touch are, also. One big huge MVC macro. 2021-03-06T20:00:49Z snan: We call them idioms rather than patterns♥ 2021-03-06T20:00:58Z amirouche1: I am not sure about the GoF thing, still what I read in Python land, is most of the time a giant mess. 2021-03-06T20:01:03Z snan: A Pattern Language is a fantastic book 2021-03-06T20:01:07Z Zipheir: Right, Lisps just turn them into procedure, or macros. 2021-03-06T20:01:14Z Zipheir: s/procedure/&s/ 2021-03-06T20:01:17Z amirouche1: (even they claim to use design patterns properly) 2021-03-06T20:02:10Z snan: Like, the specific GoF is like "Oh! You need this ridiculous construct because your language sucks!" to me, but, when you're stuck using those languages then yeah, I'll use those patterns also 2021-03-06T20:02:10Z Zipheir: amirouche1: A List α contains only αs, but with Num α => List α, αs are anything number-like. 2021-03-06T20:02:26Z amirouche1: Zipheir: ok 2021-03-06T20:04:36Z snan: Feels like 90% of the patters came about because they didn't have first class functions. 2021-03-06T20:04:37Z snan: If you can't make a (frob-skele eq? >) but instead have to use Extend Method or w/e… 2021-03-06T20:05:19Z Zipheir: There was a famous Norvig critique of GoF which showed that something like 60% of the GoF patterns disappeared in Lisp. 2021-03-06T20:05:40Z snan: But, again, the idea of having design patterns is fantastic. Just that with better languages the patterns need to live on another layer. We need patterns for different things 2021-03-06T20:06:05Z snan: It's not fair to critique the GoF for that. It's fair to critique Smalltalk/C++/Java 2021-03-06T20:06:07Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:07:14Z snan: Again, every language has its idioms and patterns 2021-03-06T20:08:11Z jcowan: "The general conclusion is that there shouldn't be any recognizable design pattern in a good Common Lisp program. The one and only pattern is: use the language, which includes defining and using syntactic abstractions." --Google CL Style Guide 2021-03-06T20:08:45Z snan: Sure, especially when people share eggs and such 2021-03-06T20:09:11Z snan: An example of a pattern I use all the time is to have huge compose chains 2021-03-06T20:10:22Z snan: An other pattern I use all the time is to use identity, or, before I had defined identity since I noticed I used it so often, (lambda (x) x). Solves a lot of problems when dispatching proc 2021-03-06T20:10:34Z snan: http://norvig.com/design-patterns/ 2021-03-06T20:10:48Z jcowan: Note that `values` serves the role of `identity` 2021-03-06T20:11:07Z snan: That's a great sidenote 2021-03-06T20:11:21Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:11:21Z Zipheir: The Little Schemer is all about Scheme design patterns. And, predictably, 90% of them are some kind of fold or map. 2021-03-06T20:13:29Z snan: I think I've seen this before, but, years ago. On page 7 of his PDF the order is kind of weird. I would put informal at the bottom 2021-03-06T20:14:26Z Zipheir: However, re: syntactic abstraction over design patterns: "Macros are the ICBMs of obfuscation" (warweasle on #lisp, IIRC) 2021-03-06T20:14:38Z snan: Right, Template-Method and Visitor specifically are ones I remember being like "Oooor you could just have first class functions." 2021-03-06T20:15:03Z snan: I love a good DSL. Macros are awesome 2021-03-06T20:15:18Z snan: Almost sometimes been frustrated that the special form needs to be in car position 2021-03-06T20:15:34Z snan: I can't just (a b c) and c is the macro 2021-03-06T20:15:39Z snan: hahaha 2021-03-06T20:16:25Z Zipheir: Embedded languages are always a great use of macros. miniKanren's `run' is the platinum standard. 2021-03-06T20:16:47Z snan: I love the shell egg 2021-03-06T20:19:38Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-06T20:20:57Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:23:17Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-03-06T20:23:26Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:23:45Z snan: Summary: Design patters are awesome and types are, uh, I'm not onboard with them yet. 2021-03-06T20:24:30Z Perkol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T20:25:23Z Zipheir: Think of types as constitutive, not restrictive. 2021-03-06T20:25:54Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T20:26:14Z snan: It's less that I think of them as restrictive (outside of misdesigned langs like old versions of C++/Java) and more that I think of them as redundant sometimes. 2021-03-06T20:26:17Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-03-06T20:26:42Z snan: As I wrote, to the extent that Haskell can actually elide other code because behavior is inferrable from the types, that's fine 2021-03-06T20:27:59Z Zipheir: And so it can. 2021-03-06T20:28:34Z snan: So types have three kinds of fans 2021-03-06T20:29:52Z snan: 1. Those who want to use it because it makes the programs faster and less checking and less need of a runtime, the programs can be more compiled. 2021-03-06T20:29:52Z snan: 2. Those who want to use it because they like the redundancy. Typos are detected, is the hope. 2021-03-06T20:29:52Z snan: 3. …? 2021-03-06T20:30:11Z snan: And my railing is first and foremost against that category two. The whole contract driven programming thing 2021-03-06T20:30:15Z snan: Eiffel 2021-03-06T20:30:27Z snan: Python, or some cultures of Python 2021-03-06T20:30:51Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-03-06T20:30:54Z snan: "Write your var names twice to confirm" 2021-03-06T20:31:08Z snan: Or I guess thrice because they want tests also 2021-03-06T20:31:48Z Zipheir: I don't think it's just typo-checking. It's assumption-checking. 2021-03-06T20:32:10Z snan: You need to express what you mean in two different ways 2021-03-06T20:32:20Z snan: In the type sig and in the body 2021-03-06T20:32:28Z Zipheir: Put another way, you state a theorem and provide a proof. 2021-03-06T20:32:34Z snan: Yes 2021-03-06T20:32:48Z snan: Not into it, I mean, emotionally not into it 2021-03-06T20:32:55Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:33:05Z Zipheir: snan: C'mon, give it a chance. :) 2021-03-06T20:33:11Z snan: It just doesn't spark "wow, I wanna program this way" and it does spark "ugh, do I really have to?" 2021-03-06T20:33:13Z snan: Oh, yeah, I will 2021-03-06T20:33:24Z snan: I've been wrong before 2021-03-06T20:33:39Z snan: It's just not fun 2021-03-06T20:33:47Z snan: I just shiver at the thought 2021-03-06T20:33:59Z Zipheir: snan: I really, really recommend Wadler's (very funny) video on this topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOiZatlZtGU 2021-03-06T20:34:42Z snan: Oh there's Maria Callas on the radio so I really don't wanna put on a video♫ 2021-03-06T20:35:05Z snan: https://live-cdn.sr.se/pool2/p2musik/p2musik.isml/p2musik.m3u8 2021-03-06T20:35:14Z Zipheir: I get it. :) 2021-03-06T20:35:28Z Zipheir: What piece? 2021-03-06T20:35:56Z snan: They did all of Lucia di Lammermoor and now it's a selection of various pieces 2021-03-06T20:36:18Z snan: They just call this second half "opera pearls" 2021-03-06T20:36:26Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:37:14Z Zipheir: Of course, my mind immediately jumps to Jon Bentley's Programming Pearls book... 2021-03-06T20:37:22Z snan: That's a given 2021-03-06T20:37:26Z snan: I never finished that 2021-03-06T20:37:46Z Zipheir: Not that I don't love opera, at least, 17th--18th century opera. 2021-03-06T20:38:01Z snan: Which LdL is 2021-03-06T20:38:09Z snan: At least I think it is 2021-03-06T20:38:57Z Zipheir: Donizetti, I always forget that. 2021-03-06T20:39:00Z yhsiveht quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:39:14Z snan: Zipheir, I don't mean to come across as stubborn or obnoxious re types. It's true that I don't have too much experience with good typed languages and I don't mean to dismiss them outright. 2021-03-06T20:39:14Z snan: Conversely to that, though, is that the whole pitch re proposition, contract, theorem-then-proof, etc… That's exactly what I don't like about them 2021-03-06T20:39:34Z snan: I don't like to write the table of contents before I've written the book 2021-03-06T20:40:33Z Zipheir: Yes. 2021-03-06T20:40:37Z snan: I program more intuitively and less thought-through I guess 2021-03-06T20:40:53Z snan: Now, with practice comes a more, uh, type-focused intuition. I do get that 2021-03-06T20:41:05Z snan: The type sig becomes a stepping stone to the finished program 2021-03-06T20:41:11Z Zipheir: I guess propositions as types is yet another bridge to "programming as a mathematical activity", as Dijkstra put it. Not everyone wants that, of course.- 2021-03-06T20:41:40Z snan: Haskell is the king of looking like a set of math equations. Which is why books in Haskell are so readable 2021-03-06T20:41:51Z snan: As long as I skip over the type sig line hahaha 2021-03-06T20:42:12Z snan: Just like how I often start typing "(define (" without even being wholly sure what the function is gonna do 2021-03-06T20:42:24Z snan: I don't always subvocalize or even am aware 2021-03-06T20:42:48Z snan: I like to sketch and scrawl and make a mess 2021-03-06T20:43:01Z Zipheir: So did Beethoven 2021-03-06T20:43:05Z Garbanzo_ joined #scheme 2021-03-06T20:43:06Z Zipheir: Oops, other topic. 2021-03-06T20:44:35Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-06T20:47:22Z snan: The last piece is gonna be Norma. Jolly good 2021-03-06T20:47:34Z snan: My neighbors are having a party upstairs 2021-03-06T20:47:49Z snan: Kinda louder than my own radio even though it's in here 2021-03-06T20:48:28Z snan: And then I'm gonna have comics marathon once this radio show is over. My friend came by with a huge stack. Far Sector, Monstress, Hixmen, Hellions, For Better or Worse… 2021-03-06T20:48:38Z snan: uh… Is OT frowned upon in here? 2021-03-06T20:49:15Z Zipheir: Within reason. :) 2021-03-06T20:49:28Z snan: The frowning is within reason♥ 2021-03-06T20:49:28Z Zipheir: I mean, it's allowed, within reason, of course. 2021-03-06T20:49:37Z Zipheir: Only reasonable frowning! 2021-03-06T20:53:20Z Zipheir: Speaking of channel-related stuff, I've been thinking that it's a good idea for the channel topic to mention that #scheme is publically-logged. Does anyone have thoughts on that? 2021-03-06T20:53:34Z snan: paraL :: (α → (List α, β) → β) → β → List α → β 2021-03-06T20:53:34Z snan: paraL f e Nil = e 2021-03-06T20:53:34Z snan: paraL f e (Cons x xs) = f x (xs, paraL f e xs) 2021-03-06T20:53:34Z snan: Focusing my eyes on the last two lines, I get it. It's super straight forward, just like high school math functions: 2021-03-06T20:53:34Z snan: If you call paraL f e on Nil, you get e. If you call it on a list, destructure it and call the car x and the cdr xs and return the f x of xs paraL f e xs. 2021-03-06T20:53:34Z snan: That's kinda what I meant by skipping over the type line. It becomes super easy to grok just as long as I don't try to read that line, which is a headache-inducingly complex line in this case, and, it doesn't really add anything. 2021-03-06T20:53:38Z snan: Yes, put that in the topic 2021-03-06T20:54:06Z Zipheir: ACK. 2021-03-06T20:54:42Z Zipheir: The type of f is a little complex. 2021-03-06T20:55:04Z Zipheir: But it's *very* informative, I think, to know that f returns a β. 2021-03-06T20:57:46Z snan: Informative like a comment, or, something a compiler actually needs/can't infer? 2021-03-06T20:58:58Z snan: Uh, not to say that you actually need to know the answer to that 2021-03-06T20:59:49Z snan: Just... If the language had been just the non type lines it would've looked awesome to me. Sweet and concise 2021-03-06T21:00:06Z snan: I'm repeating myself at this point♥ 2021-03-06T21:00:51Z snan: Thanks for having patience with my stubborness. I really do appreciate it and I don't take it for granted. 2021-03-06T21:02:01Z Zipheir: OK. :) 2021-03-06T21:02:42Z Zipheir: You generally can drop type signatures, although most Haskell I've seen includes them. The result looks a lot like M-expression Lisp. 2021-03-06T21:02:50Z snan: Also maybe I am right. That is also a possibility (or it appears as such from within my pov with the limited data I have) 2021-03-06T21:02:55Z Zipheir: Though sometimes the inference algorithm needs more information. 2021-03-06T21:03:58Z snan: It's inherently pattern matching like a match-lambda* or a syntax-rules. Which is cool 2021-03-06T21:04:10Z amirouche1: Zipheir: the channel logs url is in the title 2021-03-06T21:04:14Z amirouche1: s/title/topic/ 2021-03-06T21:04:48Z Zipheir: amirouche1: Yes, but it's not immediately clear that whatever nonsense you say is going to end up there. 2021-03-06T21:05:30Z snan: Right, it looks like a resource like any of the others 2021-03-06T21:05:31Z Zipheir: (Freenode prefers you tell everyone that explicitly.) 2021-03-06T21:06:20Z snan: Comics time for me. TTYL peeps 2021-03-06T21:07:59Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-06T21:08:19Z Zipheir: snan: Have fun. 2021-03-06T21:11:10Z evdubs_ is now known as evdubs 2021-03-06T21:13:43Z mr_machina joined #scheme 2021-03-06T21:31:09Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-03-06T21:31:42Z manumanumanu: So, mutating literal lists... Shouldn't this be an error? (define a '(1 2 3)) (set-cdr a 'bleh) ? 2021-03-06T21:32:06Z manumanumanu: set-cdr! of course... 2021-03-06T21:32:56Z Zipheir: It's an error in R6 and R7. 2021-03-06T21:33:17Z Zipheir: ... and R5. 2021-03-06T21:34:08Z manumanumanu: but it works in chez. I thought chez actually cared about these things... 2021-03-06T21:34:52Z manumanumanu: or is it different in the repl 2021-03-06T21:35:36Z manumanumanu: Zipheir: which is what I thought as well. I also believed guile and chez raised errors when mutating literals, but I have only been able to provoke it sometimes. 2021-03-06T21:36:31Z manumanumanu: but one can always ttrust chibi! 2021-03-06T21:41:40Z manumanumanu: my initial thoughts about it were right, but the implementations I tested do silly things (except chibi - hooray!) 2021-03-06T21:42:34Z dieggsy: wait, so why should that be an error? I'd expect to end up with '(1 . bleh) 2021-03-06T21:42:43Z manumanumanu: it is a literal list 2021-03-06T21:42:52Z manumanumanu: we don't mutate other literals 2021-03-06T21:43:02Z manumanumanu: it is like (set! #f 'banana) 2021-03-06T21:43:31Z Zipheir: Well, set! is a different story entirely. 2021-03-06T21:43:32Z oriba left #scheme 2021-03-06T21:43:39Z Zipheir: set! mutates environments! 2021-03-06T21:44:24Z manumanumanu: the analogy is still not bad, though - even though it is wrong :) 2021-03-06T21:45:09Z dieggsy: is that just because of the spec? 2021-03-06T21:45:34Z dieggsy: I'm just having a hard time understanding generally/conceptually why it can't be mutated, as it is at the end of the day still a list 2021-03-06T21:46:01Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-06T21:46:02Z manumanumanu: yup. Having literal lists be literal means we can store them in the compiled code and use the same literal object everywhere 2021-03-06T21:46:33Z manumanumanu: (define a '(1 2 3)) (define b '(1 2 3)) means a and b can point to the same object. 2021-03-06T21:47:14Z dieggsy: ah ok. welp. chicken also doesn't do this FWIW 2021-03-06T21:47:30Z dieggsy: least from repl 2021-03-06T21:47:34Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-06T21:48:35Z manumanumanu: Guile embeds literal pairs into compiled object files, iirc. mutating such a pair would segfault (i believe). It allows for some small optimizations 2021-03-06T21:49:45Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-06T21:49:48Z manumanumanu: but I seem to be mistaken where they are created. 2021-03-06T21:51:08Z manumanumanu: this is an error: (define a '((moo . mean))) (assq-set! a 'moo 'oom) 2021-03-06T21:51:23Z manumanumanu: but using (set-cdr! (car a) 'oom) is not. 2021-03-06T21:56:40Z manumanumanu: this is too confusing. good night! 2021-03-06T21:57:07Z manumanumanu quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-06T21:59:32Z nalaginrut joined #scheme 2021-03-06T22:25:06Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-06T22:30:15Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-06T22:33:38Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-06T22:42:37Z xandkar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T22:42:37Z xandkar1 is now known as xandkar 2021-03-06T22:43:08Z ech joined #scheme 2021-03-06T23:02:29Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:05:59Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:11:18Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:12:08Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-06T23:14:13Z wanko quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:14:17Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-06T23:15:42Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T23:16:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-06T23:18:48Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-06T23:19:57Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T23:20:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-06T23:21:14Z Wezl: looks like there's a ton of stuff in the logs, did anyone answer my question? 2021-03-06T23:21:22Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T23:21:27Z ech_ joined #scheme 2021-03-06T23:23:56Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-06T23:41:54Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-06T23:42:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-06T23:47:24Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T00:09:03Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T00:16:14Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-03-07T00:17:34Z dieggsy: Wezl: lol what was the question 2021-03-07T00:18:02Z Wezl: "what's the best way to simulate a lisp-2 in scheme?" 2021-03-07T00:18:55Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-07T00:21:26Z dieggsy: this is probably dumb but I recon I'd start with a separate table for the procedure namespace that e.g. defun and fun all access 2021-03-07T00:21:37Z dieggsy: but the folks around here are much more clever and experienced than me lol 2021-03-07T00:21:49Z dieggsy: funcall* 2021-03-07T00:23:22Z lucb joined #scheme 2021-03-07T00:23:36Z Zipheir: Yeah, a separate environment. Sounds good to me. 2021-03-07T00:27:48Z jgart joined #scheme 2021-03-07T00:28:06Z jgart: Is foreach the same as map but with the arguments flipped? 2021-03-07T00:28:48Z jgart: s/foreach/for-each/ 2021-03-07T00:30:01Z Zipheir: No, the order of arguments is the same. 2021-03-07T00:30:17Z Zipheir: for-each doesn't construct a new list. 2021-03-07T00:32:17Z jgart: Zipheir, thanks! 2021-03-07T00:32:28Z jgart: I was taking a look at forEach in nix lib https://github.com/manveru/nix-lib/blob/master/lib/lists.nix#L34 2021-03-07T00:32:41Z jgart: forEach = xs: f: map f xs; 2021-03-07T00:33:24Z jgart: and I almost thought, wow is that all that for-each is in scheme too? 2021-03-07T00:33:30Z jgart: thanks for clarifying 2021-03-07T00:33:33Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T00:33:58Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-07T00:34:28Z Zipheir: You only see (for-each proc lis) used when it makes sense for `proc' to be called for its effects alone. So, (for-each display lis) makes sense, while (map display lis) doesn't. 2021-03-07T00:34:37Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T00:35:16Z Zipheir: jgart: Interesting syntax there. 2021-03-07T00:35:57Z jgart: In nix multiple arguments to a function are achieved with currying. 2021-03-07T00:36:08Z jgart: see here: https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/nix/ 2021-03-07T00:36:14Z jgart: in the functions section 2021-03-07T00:36:45Z jgart: singleton = x: [ x ]; 2021-03-07T00:37:00Z jgart: that's another nix one in the standard lib 2021-03-07T00:38:49Z Zipheir: Hmm, the = seems a little redundant. 2021-03-07T00:39:50Z Zipheir: (Or the : is. Args on the RHS is also a bit odd.) 2021-03-07T00:41:40Z jgart: Zipheir, when dealing with a lambda that is a procedure (i.e. no args) the norm is to use an underscore where the arguments would have gone? 2021-03-07T00:41:46Z jgart: see here on this line: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/gnu/packages/suckless.scm#n97 2021-03-07T00:42:07Z jgart: there's other examples of "lambda _" in that file 2021-03-07T00:42:17Z jgart: lambda _ 2021-03-07T00:42:22Z Zipheir: jgart: That's what I do. 2021-03-07T00:42:31Z jgart: hmmm the underscore is not rendered in hexchat 2021-03-07T00:42:37Z Zipheir: (lambda _ ...) is a procedure that takes any number of arguments, of course. 2021-03-07T00:42:38Z jgart: Zipheir, Ohh ok cool 2021-03-07T00:42:39Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-07T00:43:04Z jgart: have you seen any other way of doing that in the wild? 2021-03-07T00:43:18Z jgart: or is the norm to use an underscore for a lambda without args? 2021-03-07T00:43:27Z Zipheir: jgart: The annoying part is that some Schemes treat _ as a "binding bucket" (i.e. use it any number of times, no bindings created) and many don't. 2021-03-07T00:43:35Z jgart: I've seen underscore used in pattern matching macros for example 2021-03-07T00:43:54Z Zipheir: Yes. It's part of the syntax-rules language. 2021-03-07T00:44:14Z Zipheir: And, there, it does what it should. 2021-03-07T00:45:07Z jgart: I'm still trying to understand syntax-rules language/macro system. Any suggestions you can give for practice with syntax-rules would be appreciated 2021-03-07T00:46:00Z Zipheir: jgart: Sounds good. Have you read "JRM's syntax-rules primer for the Merely Eccentric"? 2021-03-07T00:46:26Z jgart: nope, I have not 2021-03-07T00:46:32Z jgart: I'll try that, thanks! 2021-03-07T00:47:09Z Zipheir: jgart: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf 2021-03-07T00:47:35Z Zipheir: jgart: The Lisp-in-syntax-rules gets a little crazy, but the early parts are easy to pick up. Feel free to ask any questions here. 2021-03-07T00:47:45Z dieggsy: jgart: note that it's not "without args" it's "any number of args I think 2021-03-07T00:48:09Z Zipheir: Oh, OOPS. I misread that completely. 2021-03-07T00:48:36Z jgart: Zipheir, thanks! I downloaded it. Will be reading soon :) 2021-03-07T00:49:13Z dieggsy: the ref implementation for srfi-179 does something like this with (lambda muti-index ....) for handling indices of n-dimensional arrays 2021-03-07T00:49:55Z Zipheir: jgart: Yeah, as dieggsy said, the underscore convention we were talking about is for procedures that ignore their arguments, not procedures without arguments. Those are just written (lambda () ...) 2021-03-07T00:50:37Z dieggsy: right. if you wanted a lambda to throw an error when passed any arguments you'd use that ^ 2021-03-07T00:52:15Z dieggsy: I think I'd use "ignore arguments" quite sparingly and opt to be more specific when possible 2021-03-07T00:52:33Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-07T00:52:33Z Zipheir: Of course. 2021-03-07T00:53:14Z Zipheir: Wildcards are most useful, I find, in pattern matching and syntax-rules. 2021-03-07T00:53:28Z dieggsy: for this reason I'm starting to prefer case-lambda over #!optional in chicken. or at least the idea of it, #! optional is far more convenient in practice 2021-03-07T00:56:48Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-03-07T01:03:09Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-07T01:09:51Z purpleLizard joined #scheme 2021-03-07T01:12:15Z jgart: Zipheir, I was working with a friend on using macros to implement a record that generates the constructor functions. 2021-03-07T01:12:19Z jgart: See here: https://paste.debian.net/1188192/ 2021-03-07T01:12:31Z jgart: from line 58 2021-03-07T01:14:16Z jgart: Do you happen to know examples out in the wild that do something similar? I'm looking for core language examples but also anything domain specific 2021-03-07T01:15:06Z jjjd joined #scheme 2021-03-07T01:24:52Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T01:25:10Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-07T01:25:46Z Zipheir: jgart: Lots of Schemes implement define-record, which is very similar (e.g. https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Module%20(chicken%20base)#define-record) 2021-03-07T01:27:30Z Zipheir: The implementations can be pretty hairy macros. 2021-03-07T01:29:47Z xandkar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T01:33:54Z jgart: Zipheir, thanks! I'll take a look 2021-03-07T01:34:09Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:36:54Z xandkar joined #scheme 2021-03-07T01:40:55Z jgart quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:41:01Z jcowan: For-each also guarantees left-to-right order of calls: (for-each display '(1 2 3)) has to output 123, whereas map has no such guarantees. 2021-03-07T01:42:22Z xandkar1 joined #scheme 2021-03-07T01:43:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T01:47:56Z xandkar1 quit (Quit: xandkar1) 2021-03-07T01:48:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T01:57:02Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T02:18:30Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T02:20:42Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-07T02:21:01Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-07T02:26:37Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T02:29:49Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-07T02:40:52Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-07T02:54:39Z mr_machina quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-07T03:11:07Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-07T03:24:29Z dieggsy: jcowan: map just has to produce a final library that's in the same order as the previous (with the function applied on the elemenst), right? but it can get there however it wants? if so that makes a lot of sense. 2021-03-07T03:24:34Z dieggsy: i love scheme lol 2021-03-07T03:24:40Z jcowan nods 2021-03-07T03:24:46Z dieggsy: er, final list* 2021-03-07T03:24:54Z jcowan: There's a function map-in-order that's guaranteed to evaluate in order. 2021-03-07T03:25:10Z dieggsy: oh, cool 2021-03-07T03:25:15Z jcowan: but it only matters if there are side effects from the mapping function 2021-03-07T03:25:20Z dieggsy: right 2021-03-07T03:40:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T03:45:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-07T03:47:10Z jj- joined #scheme 2021-03-07T04:09:18Z thevishy joined #scheme 2021-03-07T04:12:25Z jgart joined #scheme 2021-03-07T04:14:42Z jj- is now known as jjjd 2021-03-07T04:16:49Z thevishy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-07T04:42:25Z emma is now known as em 2021-03-07T04:45:36Z xandkar1 joined #scheme 2021-03-07T04:48:18Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T05:10:13Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-03-07T05:20:56Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T05:26:39Z ech_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T05:41:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T05:45:13Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T05:46:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T05:48:17Z jgart quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T05:49:19Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-07T05:54:46Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T06:30:03Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T06:33:44Z lucb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T06:41:00Z pounce joined #scheme 2021-03-07T06:44:25Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-07T06:45:36Z marusich joined #scheme 2021-03-07T06:46:28Z dieggsy: is there a procedure that can map a procedure returning multiple values to a list, and return as many lists as values returned? 2021-03-07T06:47:17Z purpleLizard quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-07T06:55:14Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Can you give a usage example of what you want? 2021-03-07T06:56:13Z dieggsy: Zipheir: it would be something like (map (lambda (a) (values 1 2)) '(a b c)) -> '(1 1 1) '(2 2 2) 2021-03-07T06:57:08Z dieggsy: Zipheir: or more practically, (map quotient&remainder '(6 7 9) '(4 2 3)) -> '(1 3 3) '(2 1 0) 2021-03-07T06:57:32Z dieggsy: i'm sure it could be written 2021-03-07T06:57:36Z Zipheir: Ah, that's what I thought you meant. AFAIK there's nothing standard, but it should be easy enough to write. 2021-03-07T06:57:48Z dieggsy: agreed 2021-03-07T06:57:59Z Zipheir: There's a recent SRFI of multiple-value stuff https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-210/srfi-210.html 2021-03-07T06:58:59Z dieggsy: cool 2021-03-07T06:59:15Z dieggsy: actually, i'd probably call my procedure map-values, but their map-values is not that lol 2021-03-07T07:00:12Z Zipheir: It's more like an unzip. 2021-03-07T07:01:08Z Zipheir: The first tricky thing is to determine how many lists you need to return, since that won't be known until the first procedure application. 2021-03-07T07:09:12Z shawnw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T07:11:28Z thevishy joined #scheme 2021-03-07T07:13:54Z snan: (define (dieggsy proc . lists) 2021-03-07T07:13:54Z snan: (let loop ((lis (apply map (lambda elems (apply (compose list proc) elems)) lists))) 2021-03-07T07:13:54Z snan: (if (null? (car lis)) 2021-03-07T07:13:54Z snan: '() 2021-03-07T07:13:54Z snan: (cons (map car lis) (loop (map cdr lis)))))) 2021-03-07T07:14:04Z snan: yw 2021-03-07T07:15:24Z dieggsy: snan: that's not actually returning multiple values, heh 2021-03-07T07:15:39Z snan: I mean apply values to the loop 2021-03-07T07:15:41Z dieggsy: wait, i lied! 2021-03-07T07:15:45Z dieggsy: right 2021-03-07T07:16:01Z snan: (apply values (let loop ...)) 2021-03-07T07:16:03Z dieggsy claps 2021-03-07T07:16:12Z dieggsy: thanks jaja 2021-03-07T07:17:41Z dieggsy: i didn't know compose could be used like that 2021-03-07T07:17:54Z dieggsy: oh, it's literally how it's defined i guess 2021-03-07T07:18:02Z snan: These all work and DTRT: (dieggsy quotient&remainder '(6 7 9) '(4 2 3)) (dieggsy values '(6 7 9) '(4 2 3) '(a b c)) (dieggsy quotient&remainder '(6 7 9 8) '(4 2 3 5)) 2021-03-07T07:18:09Z snan: This is why I never 2021-03-07T07:18:30Z snan: have tests. I usually just do stuff like that and see if it loox fine in the REPL and then delete them 2021-03-07T07:18:39Z snan: Uh, that's a bad habit, not prescriptive 2021-03-07T07:19:22Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-07T07:20:21Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T07:21:06Z snan: Zipheir: I just invented an arbitrary arity unzip...? Hypnagogic, half-awake snan for the win! 2021-03-07T07:21:23Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-03-07T07:21:49Z snan: Defo saving this code 2021-03-07T07:21:51Z snan: It's a named let so I can probably turn this into some sorta fold, too 2021-03-07T07:22:01Z dieggsy: "the fallacy of quality assurance: why i never write tests and you shouldn't either" written by: software dev at you least favorite tech company 2021-03-07T07:22:15Z snan: Oh, I'm not saying you shouldn't write tests 2021-03-07T07:22:47Z snan: I should start saving my REPL-examples in a separate file and then maybe automatically 2021-03-07T07:22:53Z snan: Make tests out of them 2021-03-07T07:22:54Z dieggsy: snan: oh sorry, i didn't mean to imply that at all, you're good, i just imagined reading an article like that and the thought amused me 2021-03-07T07:23:17Z snan: Been struggling with the keyboard all morning SMH. All 23 minutes of it♥ 2021-03-07T07:23:29Z snan: I need to relearn/resetup paredit 2021-03-07T07:23:48Z dieggsy: snan: the atreus? 2021-03-07T07:24:01Z snan: Yeah 2021-03-07T07:24:15Z snan: Just so groggy this morning and nothing is second nature yet 2021-03-07T07:24:18Z dieggsy: any new/changed thoughts since your review? 2021-03-07T07:24:25Z snan: I'm starting to like it 2021-03-07T07:24:35Z snan: So that's a complete 180° 2021-03-07T07:24:42Z snan: Or, on my way towards one, I mean 2021-03-07T07:25:16Z dieggsy: while i like the idea of it, it really just makes me wish that laptop keyboards were more ergonomically organized 2021-03-07T07:25:22Z dieggsy: i like the curved key pattern 2021-03-07T07:25:31Z dieggsy: but i still want all my keys lol 2021-03-07T07:25:36Z dieggsy: ......and to not have to use an external keyboard 2021-03-07T07:25:59Z snan: Either way I would've wanted to use a mechanical rather than a laptop keyboard 2021-03-07T07:26:04Z snan: Not that I'm on a laptop 2021-03-07T07:26:11Z snan: Oh, I see, the problem with using a fold here is that I don't have null? lis 2021-03-07T07:28:50Z snan: (define (dieggsy proc . lists) 2021-03-07T07:28:51Z snan: (apply values 2021-03-07T07:28:51Z snan: (unzip (apply map (lambda elems (apply (compose list proc) elems)) lists)))) 2021-03-07T07:28:51Z snan: (define (unzip lis) 2021-03-07T07:28:51Z snan: (if (null? (car lis)) 2021-03-07T07:28:51Z snan: '() 2021-03-07T07:28:51Z snan: (cons (map car lis) (unzip (map cdr lis))))) 2021-03-07T07:33:48Z ex_nihilo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T07:33:55Z snan: That's gonna see a lot of use in my future code I think♥ 2021-03-07T07:36:08Z amirouche2 joined #scheme 2021-03-07T07:36:14Z snan: Re curved key pattern, I'm not really into that. I feel that I'm straining my shoulders a bit, IDK. Nocebo maybe 2021-03-07T07:36:27Z Zipheir: Wait, that's a weird unzip. Shouldn't we have (unzip (zip lis1 lis2)) ; => lis1 lis2 2021-03-07T07:38:10Z snan: Oh, the values application should be inherent 2021-03-07T07:38:57Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T07:39:30Z snan: (define (dieggsy proc . lists) 2021-03-07T07:39:30Z snan: (unzip (apply map (lambda elems (apply (compose list proc) elems)) lists))) 2021-03-07T07:39:30Z snan: (define (unzip lis) 2021-03-07T07:39:30Z snan: (apply values 2021-03-07T07:39:30Z snan: (let loop ((lis lis)) 2021-03-07T07:39:31Z snan: (if (null? (car lis)) 2021-03-07T07:39:31Z snan: '() 2021-03-07T07:39:32Z snan: (cons (map car lis) (loop (map cdr lis))))))) 2021-03-07T07:40:12Z Zipheir: I mean (unzip '((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))) ;; Error: (car) bad argument type: () 2021-03-07T07:40:19Z snan: Probably some miscmacro or base macro like rec or something that abstracts that named loop 2021-03-07T07:40:48Z snan: (unzip '((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))) worx for me 2021-03-07T07:40:57Z snan: Returns (1 2 3) (a b c) 2021-03-07T07:41:34Z Zipheir: I copied the earlier version without the loop. 2021-03-07T07:42:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T07:42:31Z snan: Which for me returns ((1 2 3) (a b c)) 2021-03-07T07:43:18Z Zipheir: OK, it works now. 2021-03-07T07:43:45Z snan: What was the issue? Mispaste due to IRC shenanigans? 2021-03-07T07:44:01Z snan: I need to set up my mimetypes so I don't have to rename my .scm to .scm.txt 2021-03-07T07:44:11Z Zipheir: I typed it out, actually. I'm trying to see what went wrong. 2021-03-07T07:44:14Z snan: So I can share code more easily 2021-03-07T07:44:48Z Zipheir: Ah, `(if (null? lis) ...)` rather than `(if (null? (car lis)) ...)`. Habit. 2021-03-07T07:45:16Z snan: Exactly — and if it were null? lis, we coulda used a fold here💔 2021-03-07T07:45:39Z Zipheir: What's needed is a "lengthwise fold". 2021-03-07T07:46:05Z snan: Oh maybe I do have something like that in tree.scm 2021-03-07T07:46:15Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, while very simple, this does traverse the list 2n times, where n is the number of values returned. 2021-03-07T07:46:21Z snan: Nope 2021-03-07T07:46:33Z snan: Nope on having it in tree.scm I mean 2021-03-07T07:46:42Z snan: Yes on being unoptimal compared to the fixed-arity foldsz 2021-03-07T07:46:44Z snan: folds 2021-03-07T07:46:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T07:47:04Z Zipheir: Maybe that's why Olin neglected to add unzip to SRFI 1... 2021-03-07T07:47:20Z snan: I don't believe so 2021-03-07T07:47:24Z snan: This is awesome 2021-03-07T07:48:07Z snan: I mean, it traverses the breadth twice (once more for values) but the depth only once, right? Cars followed by cdrs like God intended 2021-03-07T07:48:12Z Zipheir: n is likely to be pretty small. 2021-03-07T07:48:28Z snan: I mean "pluse once more for values" 2021-03-07T07:48:42Z Zipheir: You mean, for apply? 2021-03-07T07:48:44Z snan: yeah 2021-03-07T07:48:47Z Zipheir: OK. 2021-03-07T07:48:53Z snan: I meant apply as the third time 2021-03-07T07:49:04Z Zipheir: Right. So 2n + 1. 2021-03-07T07:49:28Z snan: Compared to a normal unzip4 let's say? 2021-03-07T07:50:18Z Zipheir: The fixed-size unzips can traverse only once, plus once for apply values. 2021-03-07T07:51:25Z snan: Seems like it in srfi-1-reference.scm it's the same as mine minus the apply 2021-03-07T07:51:47Z snan: Or, rather, it's even less optimal than mine since he has a car, a cadr, a caddr, and a cadddr 2021-03-07T07:52:13Z snan: So the cadddr traverses the list fully, redundantly retraversing the caddr steps plus one more 2021-03-07T07:52:24Z Zipheir: Oh, oops, I missed that in SRFI 1 . 2021-03-07T07:52:42Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T07:53:00Z snan: People in #chicken last night were kidding around about how much I suck but I mean... That was probably exaggerated, right? 2021-03-07T07:53:17Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-07T07:53:53Z Zipheir: snan: I thought they were just goofing off. At least, that was my impression. 2021-03-07T07:54:19Z snan: It defo fed into my fears & doubts of not being completely awesome at all times 2021-03-07T07:55:00Z snan: A fixed unzip4 saves you the apply and that's good. I'd need to time it out for various sets to see if the redundant cadddring hurts too badly 2021-03-07T07:55:02Z Zipheir: Yeah. 2021-03-07T07:55:29Z Zipheir: I can't think of any more efficient way of pulling out the first four elements from a list. 2021-03-07T07:55:32Z snan: The apply is breadth-wise 2021-03-07T07:55:45Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T07:55:54Z Zipheir: Right. 2021-03-07T07:56:23Z snan: If you want to pull out four elements efficiently you can recur on car+cdr 2021-03-07T07:56:24Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-03-07T07:56:36Z snan: That way you're not re-cdr-ing 2021-03-07T07:56:43Z snan: This language is so penny wise pound foolish sometimes 2021-03-07T07:57:02Z Zipheir: SML or Haskell would write something like (x1:x2:x3:x4:rest) = ..., but the pattern-matcher would be doing the same car, cadr, caddr, cadddr. It's the nature of lists. 2021-03-07T07:57:06Z snan: Heaven forbid we follow a series of pointers♥ 2021-03-07T07:57:56Z Zipheir: Well, we have to chase pointers to find list elements. The good news is that O(4) = O(1). 2021-03-07T07:58:41Z snan: What I mean is that if you save the current tail in a state you don't need to re-cdr-to it 2021-03-07T07:58:50Z Zipheir: Good point. 2021-03-07T07:59:15Z snan: Or, well, map 2021-03-07T07:59:25Z Zipheir: I wonder if the SRFI 1 unzips use a suboptimal implementation. 2021-03-07T07:59:26Z snan: Maps and folds don't recdr to their elems either 2021-03-07T07:59:34Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-07T07:59:56Z snan: Start by timing it out compared to my arbitrary arity unzip 2021-03-07T08:00:02Z snan: Although I'm not betting too much on mine 2021-03-07T08:00:46Z Zipheir: It's worth a shot. Maybe tomorrow; it's late here. 2021-03-07T08:01:20Z Zipheir: Bye, all. :) 2021-03-07T08:01:41Z snan: I just woke up SMH! Bye Zipheir 2021-03-07T08:02:03Z Zipheir: Hah, good morning, snan. And good night. 2021-03-07T08:06:22Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-07T08:09:19Z ex_nihilo: dieggsy: are you looking for something like this? https://paste.debian.net/1188203/ 2021-03-07T08:09:54Z JokerAscensionEx joined #scheme 2021-03-07T08:12:11Z dieggsy: ex_nihilo: what snan sent was pretty much exactly it. yours seems to do it too. but in my case the procedure would return multiple lists 2021-03-07T08:15:05Z ex_nihilo: dieggsy: I must have misunderstood; I thought that you wanted to map a procedure that returns multiple values over an arbitrary number of lists.... 2021-03-07T08:15:08Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-07T08:15:26Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-07T08:16:31Z snan: Zipheir: I timed it out and Oleg beat me 2021-03-07T08:16:46Z snan: Olin I mean 2021-03-07T08:17:43Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T08:22:14Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-03-07T08:22:28Z snan: ex_nihilo: there is already a div-remainder, it's called quotient&remainder 2021-03-07T08:22:36Z snan: At least I think there is one 2021-03-07T08:23:14Z snan: There is also a (lambda vals vals), it's called list 2021-03-07T08:24:25Z snan: Uh, not to be smug, just that I myself have difficulty keeping track of everything that already exists in lang 2021-03-07T08:25:30Z snan: Also the word for what you called zip has historically been called unzip. But I agree with you that that's backwards 2021-03-07T08:26:25Z snan: Other than those three li'l nitpix I think we're on the same page and went to basically the same algo 2021-03-07T08:26:57Z snan: I was so full of myself inventing an arbitrary arity unzip but looks like I wasn't the only one who could come up with that♥ 2021-03-07T08:29:05Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T08:30:57Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-03-07T08:31:30Z ex_nihilo: snan: there isn't a quotient&remainder procedure in standard Scheme, as far as I know; maybe in some implementations, though 2021-03-07T08:31:37Z snan: (define (unzip lis) (apply map list lis)) ; this is a genius implementation, thank you for this ex_nihilo 2021-03-07T08:32:07Z ex_nihilo: duh: (lambda vals vals) --> list; my only excuse is that I am about to go to bed.... 2021-03-07T08:32:32Z snan: (define (unzip lis) (apply values (apply map list lis))) ; for the values version 2021-03-07T08:33:22Z snan: Right, same with the dotted version of zip . xss, you are applying to that anyway so might as wells ditch the dot and ditch the apply in the call to zip 2021-03-07T08:33:32Z snan: Which I did in this unzip 2021-03-07T08:34:20Z dpk: "The general conclusion is that there shouldn't be any recognizable design pattern in a good Common Lisp program. The one and only pattern is: use the language, which includes defining and using syntactic abstractions." --Google CL Style Guide 2021-03-07T08:34:31Z dpk: nice quote. i still find it amusing that Google has a Common Lisp style guide 2021-03-07T08:34:36Z snan: Huh, Olin's unzip4 0.001, mine 0.003, yours 0.008. Weird, I thought yours looked faster 2021-03-07T08:34:50Z snan: Haha yeah. But I mean Norvig works/worked there 2021-03-07T08:35:24Z dpk: well, even so, they were once an infamously anti-Lisp shop 2021-03-07T08:35:30Z ex_nihilo: my implementation of zip does exactly what zip always has done; it takes an arbitrary number of lists and returns lists made by taking the elements in order-- I haven't ever heard this called unzip. But, I could probably get rid of some of the . syntax; I am usually in Common Lisp, so sometimes I get convoluted with arbitrary list arguments in Scheme ;) 2021-03-07T08:35:50Z dpk: Ron Garret, i think, went to Google and broached the subject of Lisp with his manager and was given the flattest 'no' imaginable 2021-03-07T08:36:12Z dpk: but then they went and bought the biggest/most famous Lisp company in the world (ITA) and ended up with a huge Lisp codebase anyway 2021-03-07T08:36:23Z dpk: pleasantly surprised that it apparently hasn't been rewritten in Java or something 2021-03-07T08:37:51Z snan: I read through Garrets Xooglers blog at one point 2021-03-07T08:37:57Z snan: Or whatever it was called 2021-03-07T08:57:07Z snan: I couldn't find zip/unzip in the CL hyperspec 2021-03-07T09:05:23Z snan: dieggsy: so combining mine and ex_nihilos solutions: 2021-03-07T09:05:23Z snan: (define (dieggsy proc . lists) 2021-03-07T09:05:23Z snan: (apply values (apply map list (apply map (lambda elems (apply (compose list proc) elems)) lists)))) 2021-03-07T09:05:23Z snan: Short and sweet 2021-03-07T09:07:15Z snan: There should be an amap-procedure that's basically a more efficient implementation of 2021-03-07T09:07:15Z snan: (define (amap proc) 2021-03-07T09:07:15Z snan: (lambda (args) (apply proc (apply map args)))) 2021-03-07T09:08:10Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-07T09:08:53Z jj- joined #scheme 2021-03-07T09:11:45Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T09:13:00Z ex_nihilo: snan: Common Lisp doesn't have a built-in zip function; here is zip from SRFI 1: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#zip 2021-03-07T09:14:02Z ex_nihilo: zip has been used in functional programming languages for a long time; ML, Miranda, and Haskell all have it. I noticed that the SRFI 1 implementation is the same one that I used above! 2021-03-07T09:21:14Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T09:26:29Z snan: (define (zip . args) (apply map list args)) 2021-03-07T09:26:29Z snan: (define (unzip lis) (apply values (apply map list lis))) 2021-03-07T09:26:30Z snan: basically. Your version of zip lead me to come up with a shorter/neater (but slower) version of unzip 2021-03-07T09:26:45Z snan: It's unzip that you need for dieggsy's use case 2021-03-07T09:31:56Z snan: Oh, they left 2021-03-07T09:35:34Z snan: Zipheir: this works?! (define (unzip lis) (apply values (apply zip lis))) 2021-03-07T09:35:42Z snan: It passes my tests 2021-03-07T09:35:44Z snan: wow 2021-03-07T09:35:56Z snan: Unzip is zip 2021-03-07T09:38:01Z snan: Not literally but still 2021-03-07T09:38:23Z snan: Unzip is applied zip ♥ 2021-03-07T09:42:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T09:47:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T09:47:14Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-07T10:03:22Z kopiyka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T10:47:34Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-07T11:27:09Z ewd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T11:29:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T11:36:07Z amirouche2 is now known as amirouche 2021-03-07T11:36:29Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T12:30:57Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-07T12:35:44Z polezaivsani quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T12:36:45Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-07T12:38:56Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-03-07T12:45:14Z Noisytoot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T12:50:11Z ewd joined #scheme 2021-03-07T13:00:32Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-07T13:07:54Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-07T13:19:04Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-07T13:23:48Z Noisytoot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T13:26:59Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-07T13:27:44Z nmeum_ is now known as nmeum 2021-03-07T13:32:04Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-07T13:33:33Z Noisytoot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T13:34:35Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-07T13:39:16Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-07T13:39:32Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-07T13:54:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T14:08:30Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-07T14:11:33Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-07T14:17:58Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-03-07T14:20:21Z ex_nihilo quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-07T14:35:37Z parse joined #scheme 2021-03-07T14:41:52Z dpk: jcowan: volunteer also to sample implement https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/PortOperationsCowan.md. would also like to add read-line* as mentioned recently, see https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2087402 2021-03-07T14:47:14Z dpk: (am open to a better name, or to splitting the one read-line procedure into two, for character/string and bytevector, as is actually done in the implementation) 2021-03-07T14:49:27Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T15:04:29Z ech joined #scheme 2021-03-07T15:50:44Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T15:51:02Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-07T15:53:57Z montxero joined #scheme 2021-03-07T16:04:35Z dpk: (okay, just put together an implementation of the procedures there since most of them looked pretty handy for my own code. would post as well, but GitLab doesn't seem to want to let me make a new snippet atm) 2021-03-07T16:06:18Z dpk: jcowan: ah, there we go https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2087417 2021-03-07T16:06:27Z dpk: some of them could probably be implemented better 2021-03-07T16:08:40Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-03-07T16:17:16Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-07T16:37:59Z amirouche: what is faster (fx=? foo 42) or (eq? foo 'magic) :o) 2021-03-07T16:41:02Z dpk: equivalently fast 2021-03-07T16:41:47Z dpk: or eq? must actually be quicker, since it doesn't have to type check its arguments 2021-03-07T16:41:58Z dpk: it can just do a pointer comparison 2021-03-07T16:42:16Z ewd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T16:42:32Z dpk: whereas fx=? *should* check that you didn't pass it a string, a symbol, or a sandwich 2021-03-07T16:42:41Z dpk: and signal an error accordingly 2021-03-07T16:43:03Z amirouche: I agree but I have no proof :o) 2021-03-07T16:43:13Z dpk: well, it's always implementation dependent 2021-03-07T16:43:18Z amirouche: yes 2021-03-07T16:43:43Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T16:43:48Z dpk: checking SRFI 143, it appears that (define fx=? eq?) would be a valid implementation 2021-03-07T16:44:17Z dpk: "If any argument is not a fixnum, […], it is an error" — i.e. it doesn't have to signal an error 2021-03-07T16:44:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T16:44:21Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-07T16:44:38Z amirouche: it is an error? no 2021-03-07T16:45:04Z amirouche: ? 2021-03-07T16:45:08Z dpk: "it is an error" is Scheme's version of C's "undefined behaviour" 2021-03-07T16:45:54Z dpk: it *could* signal an error, or it could crash the process, or it could do what you actually intended, or it could do something completely different 2021-03-07T16:46:02Z amirouche: no an error is an error. undefined behavior is up to the implementation. 2021-03-07T16:47:05Z dpk: see section 1.3.2 in R7RS small 2021-03-07T16:47:33Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T16:47:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T16:48:41Z amirouche: I would prefer to think that srfi-143 has a slight wording problem. 2021-03-07T16:48:52Z aeth: The point of eq? is to be low level, which is why it leaves a lot unspecified. It works on symbols, though. 2021-03-07T16:49:06Z dpk: "When speaking of an error situation, this report uses the phrase “an error is signaled” to indicate that implementations must detect and report the error. […] If such wording does not appear in the discussion of an error, then implementations are not required to detect or report the error, though they are encouraged to do so. Such a situation is sometimes, but not always, referred to with the phrase “an error.” In such a situation, 2021-03-07T16:49:06Z dpk: an implementation may or may not signal an error; if it does signal an error, the object that is signaled may or may not satisfy the predicates error-object?, file-error?, or read-error?. Alternatively, implementations may pro- vide non-portable extensions." 2021-03-07T16:49:24Z aeth: However, eq? might specify just enough to not be as fast as it intends to be, though. So whether or not eq? is actually low level is implementation specific. 2021-03-07T16:49:43Z amirouche: dpk: ok, that is the third paragraph that says "an error might be a scheme error or something else" 2021-03-07T16:49:43Z dpk: i.e. it is permitted to let fx=? work on non-fixnum objects as a non-portable extension 2021-03-07T16:50:16Z amirouche: yep 2021-03-07T16:50:36Z amirouche: TIL 2021-03-07T16:52:43Z amirouche: also, I prefer not to use the word 'error' when no call to `error` is mandatory. 2021-03-07T16:53:45Z aeth: amirouche: I think that's because it doesn't really specify how the errors are supposed to work 2021-03-07T16:53:59Z amirouche: also I just learned that word which fits right in: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/pantonyme 2021-03-07T16:54:05Z aeth: amirouche: I assume some part of r7rs-large will specify the r7rs-small errors as actual errors 2021-03-07T16:54:20Z dpk: well, this is the convention Scheme technical documentation has used since at least R5RS 2021-03-07T16:54:59Z dpk: yes, the plan for R7RS Large is that everything that "is an error" in R7RS Small will become an actual "an error is signalled" situation 2021-03-07T16:55:16Z amirouche: that will make more sense to me 2021-03-07T16:55:32Z dpk: (this may turn out to be unpopular with implementations (mainly interpreters) that have no problem with you going in and mutating literals) 2021-03-07T16:56:21Z dpk: (we'll see what happens when this comes up for a vote. we need a coherent error signalling and discrimination system first …) 2021-03-07T16:57:17Z amirouche: what is the problem with "coherent signalling and discrimination system"? What about predicates to discriminate errors? 2021-03-07T16:57:57Z dpk: the problem is that existing implementations all have their own hierarchies of error types and signal different ones in different situations. we ideally want an error of the same type to be triggered in the same situation across all implementations 2021-03-07T16:58:12Z dpk: without alienating implementations by throwing their existing error hierarchies away entirely 2021-03-07T16:58:34Z amirouche: it seems to me the predicate approach subsume previous approches? 2021-03-07T16:58:46Z amirouche: previous and all approaches 2021-03-07T17:03:34Z dpk: yes, predicate functions are how R7RS small started off dealing with this problem and Large will likely continue in the same trend. there also needs to be ways for users to define error types etc, which are missing in small 2021-03-07T17:03:42Z dpk: but we'll see 2021-03-07T17:05:20Z dpk: there are also cases where SRFIs which have been adopted for Large use wording like "it is an error". i presume we'll need to go back and define error types to actually be signalled in those situations, too 🙃 2021-03-07T17:05:22Z amirouche: I have be bitten once by read-error? 2021-03-07T17:06:05Z amirouche: The error was unicode related, and `read` per se. 2021-03-07T17:06:13Z amirouche: and not `read` per se. 2021-03-07T17:06:36Z amirouche: IIRC it was an invalid unicode point. 2021-03-07T17:07:37Z amirouche: I solved the problem by wrapping read-char, and catching every, and re-raise my own error. 2021-03-07T17:08:19Z dpk: e.g. SRFI 1 has 8 non-defining instances of "it is an error", of which 3 apply to a whole group of procedures 2021-03-07T17:10:21Z amirouche: on a related note, it seems i have been working and reworking the same hundreds of lines for at least 5 years.. 2021-03-07T17:10:51Z amirouche: I guess I am the production type of person 2021-03-07T17:11:11Z amirouche: I ma NOT the production type of person 2021-03-07T17:11:14Z amirouche: :| 2021-03-07T17:11:51Z amirouche: the good news is that I make progress everytime I rewrite. 2021-03-07T17:12:40Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-07T17:13:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:14:07Z amirouche: dpk: what is you main scheme project about? 2021-03-07T17:14:44Z dpk: good question. i got interested in Scheme again recently because i had one of those programming projects coming up where i could write it in any language i liked, and i wondered if i could do it in Scheme 2021-03-07T17:15:18Z dpk: the answer was no, Scheme (well, portable Scheme) does not have the library support i need yet, so let's work on the libraries i would have needed for that project 2021-03-07T17:15:28Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:15:39Z dpk: that's created a massively complex chain of things i need to make or wait for other people to finish making :D 2021-03-07T17:17:12Z amirouche: that is relatable, except I am happy with r7rs-large as-is, I mean I do not think I need more in terms of datastructures. 2021-03-07T17:17:39Z amirouche: well... they are replacements, like scheme mapping could be faster with a cursor in my use case. 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z terpri_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z gwatt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:42Z balkamos quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z greaser|q quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z zgrep quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z lpsmith quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z gf3 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z samth quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z Boarders quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:43Z physpi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-07T17:17:56Z amirouche: dpk: the project is related to linguistic? 2021-03-07T17:18:07Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:18:12Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:18:28Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:18:29Z gf3 joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:18:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:18:50Z physpi joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:18:52Z lpsmith joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z samth joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z greaser|q joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z gwatt joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:19:23Z balkamos joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:19:57Z zgrep joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:20:56Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:21:49Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:22:00Z dpk: ultimately i'd like a nice web framework. (i'm willing to write that.) that should talk to a web server using a sensible Rack- or WSGI-like interface. (also willing to specify that). but then i need a way to talk to a real web server, like a basic HTTP server i can reverse proxy to, or FastCGI, or whatever. and for the basic HTTP server i need network sockets … jcowan has a pre-SRFI for a nice high-level network socket API, but it's 2021-03-07T17:22:00Z dpk: basically waiting for R7RS Large to decide on a keyword arguments system, and R7RS Large is waiting on R7RS Large to decide on a more flexible macro system before it can implement keyword arguments using it 2021-03-07T17:23:48Z dpk: no, i'm a linguist and programmer, but ne'er the twain shall meet. i dislike the areas of linguistics to which computational linguistics has been applied, and am skeptical about the utility of computational methods in my area of linguistics 2021-03-07T17:23:59Z iv4nshm4k0v: dpk: Are there any particular advantages in WSGI / FastCGI over plain HTTP (perhaps over Unix sockets))? 2021-03-07T17:24:05Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:19Z dpk: iv4nshm4k0v: WSGI and FastCGI are different kinds of things 2021-03-07T17:24:41Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:24:55Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:03Z romariorios[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:12Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:18Z amirouche: IIRC FCGI is using stdin / stdout 2021-03-07T17:25:28Z dpk: WSGI is a specification that says how to speak HTTP semantics within a Python program — a Python server procedure speaks WSGI to a Python web app procedure 2021-03-07T17:25:29Z iv4nshm4k0v: dpk: At least FastCGI is an interface which allows, essentially, an HTTP request to be passed to another process. (I admit I never've dealt with WSGI.) 2021-03-07T17:25:32Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:32Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:25:59Z amirouche: FCGI use C structs over the pipe instead of what HTTP does. 2021-03-07T17:26:25Z amirouche: It is not clear to me what is the point of WSGI given HTTP. 2021-03-07T17:26:43Z dpk: FastCGI does not have any significant differences to HTTP over e.g. a Unix sockets, other than the usual benefits/disadvantages of a binary protocol vs a textual one 2021-03-07T17:26:46Z amirouche: especially since it forbig web sockets 2021-03-07T17:27:35Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: But the contents of those C structs is just another encoding for the original HTTP request, no? 2021-03-07T17:28:18Z dpk: amirouche: well, i have my web app right? and it's written using my web app framework. i want my web app, through the framework, to be able to talk to FastCGI *and* plain HTTP, for whatever i decide is better. so i return Python objects instead of talking either protocol directly and either an HTTP server like Gunicorn or a FastCGI server like Flup will talk the actual protocol for me 2021-03-07T17:28:26Z dpk: also basic code reuse, etc 2021-03-07T17:29:06Z amirouche: dpk: TIL 2021-03-07T17:29:28Z amirouche: iv4nshm4k0v: yes 2021-03-07T17:29:50Z dpk: different web frameworks can use the same HTTP/FastCGI/whatever server code just by speaking WSGI, instead of each having to implement HTTP or FastCGI for themselves 2021-03-07T17:30:00Z amirouche: dpk: it abstract how the app reads the HTTP request. oh ah! I was going to add I do not see the point of FCGI 2021-03-07T17:30:28Z amirouche: given FCGI or whatever it makes sense. 2021-03-07T17:30:28Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-07T17:30:51Z iv4nshm4k0v: Different Web frameworks can just speak HTTP/1, IMO. 2021-03-07T17:32:02Z amirouche: that is the missing piece, before today 2021, they was a different setup that made FCGI practical over re-implementing HTTP. 2021-03-07T17:33:09Z amirouche: IIRC, with apache modwsgi, you do not need to manage the python process with systemd or whatever, it leads to a simpler setup. 2021-03-07T17:35:06Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: The obvious downside is that you can't then cleanly isolate your Python process under a UID different to that Apache itself runs as. 2021-03-07T17:35:19Z amirouche: iv4nshm4k0v: that is up to apache (: 2021-03-07T17:35:34Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: ? 2021-03-07T17:35:57Z amirouche: by UID you mean the user UID? 2021-03-07T17:36:54Z amirouche: so IIUC, the python process forked by apache necessarly has the same UID as apache. How is that a problem? 2021-03-07T17:36:55Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:37:14Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: By UID I mean User IDentifier. Classically (or is it POSIXically?), you use setuid syscall to switch to another UID. That syscall is only available to root (UID 0) user, which Apache does /not/ run as. 2021-03-07T17:37:26Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: That /is/ the problem! 2021-03-07T17:37:54Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:37:58Z Aquazi: from SICP: `not` is not an ordinary procedure 2021-03-07T17:38:04Z Aquazi: but it doesn't expand on the reason 2021-03-07T17:38:33Z Aquazi: also, why does SICP loves to use procedures in place of functions, this is so confusing and doesn't add much value 2021-03-07T17:38:53Z amirouche: iv4nshm4k0v: Let's put aside security, do we agree that HTTP/1 server with scheme is more work that FCGI approach? 2021-03-07T17:40:54Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: You mean, do I think that parsing HTTP/1 messages is harder than parsing C structs? Well, I can't say I've tried parsing FCGI structs specifically, but I don't expect it to be /much/ easier. 2021-03-07T17:42:09Z amirouche: we need an historian to understand what is the point of FCGI 2021-03-07T17:43:04Z iv4nshm4k0v: In a way, I'd say that HTTP/1 parsing in Scheme may be easier to /debug,/ given that HTTP/1 headers are "plain text," whereas FCGI structs are apparently not. 2021-03-07T17:43:23Z Zipheir: Aquazi: (procedure? not) ; => #t 2021-03-07T17:43:41Z Zipheir: Aquazi: What's the difference between a Scheme procedure and a Scheme function? 2021-03-07T17:44:17Z Aquazi: I don't know 2021-03-07T17:44:30Z Aquazi: also why would it matter there's Scheme word in it 2021-03-07T17:44:54Z Aquazi: it's structure and interpreation of computer programs, not semantic details of a lisp educational dialect 2021-03-07T17:45:03Z amirouche: dpk: btw there is https://github.com/pre-srfi/http-1.1 the code is more interesting that the spec 2021-03-07T17:45:21Z Zipheir: Aquazi: It sounds like it's frustrating you. 2021-03-07T17:45:53Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:45:56Z Aquazi: I see a function applied to an argument, it returns a value, doesn't even have side effects, why call it procedure left and right 2021-03-07T17:45:57Z Aquazi: yes a bit 2021-03-07T17:46:00Z amirouche: dpk: I want to publish and host a project using it before doing a srfi proposal 2021-03-07T17:46:08Z Zipheir: Aquazi: Is the question about what SICP means when they write "function" vs. "procedure"? 2021-03-07T17:46:55Z amirouche: dpk: I bypass the socket problem, one layer above and expect a generator of bytes. 2021-03-07T17:46:58Z Aquazi: I meant to ask indeed if there's a difference I'm not grasping 2021-03-07T17:47:34Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-07T17:47:51Z Aquazi: also, why is `not` not an ordinary procedure 2021-03-07T17:48:05Z Zipheir: Aquazi: No, that agrees with my understanding of it. Scheme doesn't have "functions" in a concrete sense, but SICP calls non-side-effecting procedures "functions". 2021-03-07T17:48:33Z Aquazi: negating a predicate, and returning a boolean seems pretty ordinary 2021-03-07T17:48:39Z Zipheir: Aquazi: AFAIK it is. Can you link where it says that? 2021-03-07T17:48:59Z Aquazi: what do you mean by _concrete_ sense of functions? 2021-03-07T17:49:14Z amirouche: function = math function which do not have side-effects. 2021-03-07T17:49:45Z amirouche: I never say function with scheme, only procedure. 2021-03-07T17:50:25Z Zipheir: Aquazi: There's no way to declare that some procedure is a function. 2021-03-07T17:52:05Z amirouche: Zipheir: I am right that math function has no side-effect? 2021-03-07T17:52:07Z Zipheir: Aquazi: The way to use functions in Scheme is to (a) write a comment that says "calling this does not cause side effects", or (b) write a comment that says "it is an error if calling 'f' involves side-effects". 2021-03-07T17:52:28Z Zipheir: amirouche: That's my understanding. 2021-03-07T17:52:49Z amirouche: I think SICP is too meticulous about the naming function vs. procedure. 2021-03-07T17:53:50Z Zipheir: I find their terminology a bit confusing, yes. 2021-03-07T17:55:09Z Zipheir: Aquazi: I found this in the first section of SICP: "`not' is an ordinary procedure.". 2021-03-07T17:55:46Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: The approach I'd like is to have an object which you pass read data to and which then allows (in)complete HTTP/1 messages to be retrieved from it. 2021-03-07T17:56:30Z amirouche: iv4nshm4k0v: what is the goal ? 2021-03-07T17:57:55Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: In my case, I was implementing a proxy server and wanted for it to modify the messages in the least amount possible. 2021-03-07T17:59:46Z amirouche: iv4nshm4k0v: least amount of cpu or memory or somethng else? 2021-03-07T18:00:08Z iv4nshm4k0v: (Also, a degree of universality, I suppose? This way, it's virtually independent of the specific event loop in use.) 2021-03-07T18:00:11Z amirouche: iv4nshm4k0v: for instance read the headers, modify or add some, then forward the body ? 2021-03-07T18:01:28Z amirouche: that is also the reason I went with an http parser :) 2021-03-07T18:01:43Z amirouche: (and take a generator or accumulator as argument) 2021-03-07T18:02:25Z amirouche: (the only case that I did not forsee clearly is callback based event loop) 2021-03-07T18:02:53Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: More like, get an HTTP/1 request, remove http://HOSTNAME/ from the request line, forward it to the target server, read the response, return unaltered to the client. The usual HTTP proxy stuff, for the most part. 2021-03-07T18:03:14Z amirouche: ok 2021-03-07T18:03:30Z iv4nshm4k0v: Though I did end up /not/ preserving chunked encoding boundaries, I think. 2021-03-07T18:04:10Z amirouche: I understand. 2021-03-07T18:04:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-07T18:05:49Z iv4nshm4k0v: I think I even had message forwarding commencing before the whole message /body/ is read. 2021-03-07T18:08:37Z amirouche: that is better. 2021-03-07T18:08:48Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-07T18:12:16Z iv4nshm4k0v: amirouche: Can't say I'm particularly fond of Narchive, but at least it /is/ compatible with Lynx. I see the code is at http://narkive.com/mzyMAm35.1 (caveat: Perl, GNU GPL.) 2021-03-07T18:14:56Z dpk: amirouche: nice. i actually wrote up a rough draft of my ideas earlier today — see https://gitlab.com/dpk/wibble/-/blob/master/swag.md (and https://gitlab.com/dpk/wibble/-/blob/master/wibble.md) 2021-03-07T18:21:55Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-07T18:24:09Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-07T18:24:46Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-07T18:25:23Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-03-07T18:28:20Z amirouche: fwiw, I have seen many schemes for handling routes, so far the only one that does not lead to overengineering is `match` 2021-03-07T18:28:25Z amirouche: on a related note https://github.com/pre-srfi/hyperserver 2021-03-07T18:28:38Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-07T18:28:59Z amirouche: the only improvement I would accept is prefix compression inside match, but certainly not reverse path with names. 2021-03-07T18:30:22Z amirouche: one may say I have a strong opinion about this. 2021-03-07T18:34:06Z amirouche: re hyperserver does not support returning custom headers except the mime-type, in particular it is not possible to set a cookie 2021-03-07T18:34:34Z amirouche: that was done on purpose, to keep thing simpler and fine-tuned to the SPA use-case. 2021-03-07T18:35:01Z amirouche: (you can use cookies with an SPA, but I do not see / understand the point) 2021-03-07T18:35:19Z amirouche: (similarly, you can send custom headers with an SPA..) 2021-03-07T18:37:11Z amirouche: oh I got an idea for another name, since I changed quite much john intent in that spec: `spas` for super application server :) 2021-03-07T18:37:21Z amirouche: or single page application server 2021-03-07T18:37:28Z dpk: what do you mean by "`match`"? 2021-03-07T18:38:14Z dpk: if you could had an extra s at the end of the name it would be fun. albeit only for people with no ß on their keyboards 2021-03-07T18:38:32Z amirouche: match such as chibi match or 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Please note: Public logs of #scheme are posted at https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme | (map surf-to '("https://schemers.org" "https://srfi.schemers.org" "http://community.schemewiki.org" "https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp" "https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures" "https://htdp.org" "https://scheme.com/tspl4" "https://paste.debian.net" 2021-03-08T07:25:47Z ChanServ has set mode -o Zipheir 2021-03-08T07:30:57Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T07:35:51Z amirouche2 joined #scheme 2021-03-08T07:39:22Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T07:41:39Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-03-08T07:44:39Z marusich joined #scheme 2021-03-08T07:50:28Z jj- joined #scheme 2021-03-08T07:53:16Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-08T07:54:53Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-08T07:57:47Z lockywolf: hm... would it be schem-y to import libraries from other implementation runtimes? 2021-03-08T08:00:23Z lockywolf: e.g. if (lib ra ry) is *on this machine* provided by chez, I would (import (lib ra ry)) from guile, and those functions would run on the chez interpreter 2021-03-08T08:01:27Z lockywolf: would have been nice 2021-03-08T08:01:49Z mdhughes: How would you get a result back to guile? 2021-03-08T08:02:51Z lockywolf: the same way I would pass arguments to chez, but in the opposite direction 2021-03-08T08:02:56Z lockywolf: to be hones, I do not know 2021-03-08T08:03:02Z lockywolf: just imagining 2021-03-08T08:03:18Z mdhughes: If they have source, it might be sorta compatible to run Chez libs on Guile, but some won't run. 2021-03-08T08:03:36Z lockywolf: that is the opposite of what I am imagining 2021-03-08T08:04:15Z mdhughes: Or you could make one uber-interpreter that embeds Chez and Guile, and calls either one, and then copies results from one env to the other. 2021-03-08T08:04:24Z lockywolf: yeah, kinda 2021-03-08T08:04:30Z lockywolf: well... not really 2021-03-08T08:04:43Z lockywolf: I am thinking about an fse instead of an ffi 2021-03-08T08:04:48Z lockywolf: foreign-scheme-interface 2021-03-08T08:05:24Z lockywolf: surely, making a foreign scheme interface should be easier than a foreign function interface? 2021-03-08T08:05:53Z lockywolf: I guess, passing non-standard objects should be prohibited. 2021-03-08T08:14:18Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-08T08:20:20Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-08T08:23:43Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-03-08T08:28:50Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-08T08:31:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T08:31:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T08:42:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-08T08:54:31Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-08T09:08:09Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-08T09:10:25Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T09:16:41Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-08T09:27:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T09:27:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T09:27:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T09:27:47Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-08T09:32:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T09:34:15Z jj- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T09:42:33Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T09:48:06Z jjjd joined #scheme 2021-03-08T09:49:43Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-08T10:10:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T10:10:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T10:10:27Z partyclicker joined #scheme 2021-03-08T10:21:48Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-08T10:26:46Z jjjd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T10:29:04Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T10:29:20Z edgar-xyz joined #scheme 2021-03-08T10:43:21Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T10:44:50Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-03-08T10:52:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T11:13:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:13:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T11:16:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:16:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T11:16:57Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-03-08T11:33:37Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-08T11:41:04Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T11:42:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:42:30Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T11:44:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:44:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T11:45:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:45:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T11:49:37Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T11:54:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:54:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T11:55:04Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T11:55:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T11:56:01Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-08T11:59:45Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-08T12:02:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T12:06:43Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T12:55:29Z m2rrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-08T12:55:40Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T13:00:23Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-08T13:14:56Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-08T13:22:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T13:28:23Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-03-08T13:32:20Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-08T13:35:51Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-08T13:37:34Z littleme joined #scheme 2021-03-08T13:39:38Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:01:27Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:03:54Z xandkar1 quit (Quit: xandkar1) 2021-03-08T14:04:12Z Noisytoot quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:07:08Z Wezl: does anyone know how tinyscheme macros work? 2021-03-08T14:07:09Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:08:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:08:30Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:09:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:09:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:13:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:13:18Z Wezl: ok I think I got it now 2021-03-08T14:13:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:14:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:14:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:15:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T14:16:45Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:27:57Z andrei-n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T14:29:30Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:39:04Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T14:39:09Z u0_a61 joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:41:56Z u0_a61 is now known as Wezl 2021-03-08T14:43:54Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:51:48Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:54:13Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T14:54:44Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:57:34Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-03-08T14:57:38Z khisanth_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-08T14:58:38Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-08T15:00:32Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T15:00:32Z mdhughes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T15:03:10Z mdhughes joined #scheme 2021-03-08T15:08:12Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T15:08:31Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-08T15:12:49Z ft quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-08T15:13:13Z ft joined #scheme 2021-03-08T15:13:41Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-08T15:18:12Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-08T15:24:31Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T15:25:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T15:25:15Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T15:25:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T15:28:17Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T15:39:02Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T15:43:47Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T15:53:06Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T15:55:51Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T16:00:00Z Garbanzo_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:05:51Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-03-08T16:08:33Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:10:07Z jcowan: I think a foreign Schene interface is just about as easy/difficult as an FFI. At one time I looked at embedding Chibi into Chicken so that if you need a fast interpreter at runtime you could have it. 2021-03-08T16:10:13Z jcowan: As you said, nonstandard objects would be opaque (but not outright forbidden; you could get Chibi to create a record and then pass that back to Chicken, but Chicken couldn't do anything with it except send it to Chibi later. 2021-03-08T16:13:39Z jcowan: lockywolf: ^^ 2021-03-08T16:17:31Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T16:26:15Z m2rrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T16:38:08Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T16:41:43Z xandkar1 joined #scheme 2021-03-08T16:42:52Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T16:45:08Z rj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T16:45:31Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T16:57:17Z amirouche2: there is this https://github.com/guenchi/Darkart/ 2021-03-08T16:57:28Z amirouche2: it embeds various interpreter with chez 2021-03-08T16:57:40Z amirouche2: but not scheme interpreter IIRC 2021-03-08T17:01:00Z amoe joined #scheme 2021-03-08T17:05:10Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T17:07:04Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-08T17:07:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T17:12:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:14:14Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:18:50Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-03-08T17:20:41Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:24:12Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T17:31:45Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-08T17:38:02Z skapate quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T17:49:36Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-03-08T17:50:43Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-03-08T17:50:59Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-08T17:58:26Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-08T18:05:42Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:09:14Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T18:16:48Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:24:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T18:29:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:32:43Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:33:39Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-08T18:36:46Z jeko quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-08T18:39:45Z ggoes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T18:40:52Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-03-08T18:41:02Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:41:21Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:41:37Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-08T18:47:02Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-08T18:49:14Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T18:53:59Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-08T18:55:48Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-03-08T19:01:39Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T19:08:19Z thevishy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T19:13:18Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-03-08T19:13:50Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:23:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T19:24:49Z jcowan: amirouche2: There seems to be no reason why it should not provide access to any embeddable Scheme 2021-03-08T19:25:32Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-03-08T19:27:51Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-08T19:33:15Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:35:14Z amirouche3 joined #scheme 2021-03-08T19:36:00Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T19:38:42Z amirouche2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:44:51Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-08T19:51:39Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:52:29Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-08T19:53:54Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T19:56:06Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T19:57:26Z Zipheir: Apparently everyone who works with Dan Friedman ends up using the "HUH?" pronunciation for Scheme predicates (as in "zeroHUH?"). 2021-03-08T20:03:45Z snan: haha 2021-03-08T20:04:05Z snan: I never programmed any bigger stuff in CL but I still sometimes thing of it as zerop 2021-03-08T20:04:19Z drakonis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:04:31Z Zipheir: Same here. I think the "-p convention" is still the most common in Scheme. 2021-03-08T20:04:34Z snan: Or mostly I don't think of it in audial words 2021-03-08T20:05:05Z snan: My mental model of Lisp is sort of like… Buoys floating in the harbor with rope 2021-03-08T20:06:03Z Zipheir: As in David Christiansen's The Little Typer presentation at Strange Loop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxINoKFm-S4 2021-03-08T20:06:25Z Zipheir: Is the rope the parens, or are they the buoys? 2021-03-08T20:06:29Z snan: The rope is the parens 2021-03-08T20:06:43Z drakonis joined #scheme 2021-03-08T20:06:43Z snan: Or rather, the rope is the lists 2021-03-08T20:07:05Z snan: But if something looks like this ((((pizza)))) it's on four ropes 2021-03-08T20:07:17Z Zipheir drives a jet ski through the parens. 2021-03-08T20:07:38Z snan: Yeah it's not really parens. Parens are the start and end of the ropes 2021-03-08T20:08:08Z Zipheir: IIRC wasamasa calls them "pringles". 2021-03-08T20:08:22Z snan: Parens 2021-03-08T20:08:29Z snan: But the thing is, it's not a textual model 2021-03-08T20:08:39Z snan: The buoys in the harbor isn't, I mean 2021-03-08T20:09:18Z snan: zero? isn't really text or a sound, it's a specific buoy 2021-03-08T20:09:56Z Zipheir: snan: You should paint this model or something. 2021-03-08T20:10:26Z hidetora joined #scheme 2021-03-08T20:10:29Z snan: maybe I 2021-03-08T20:10:36Z snan: Maybe if I worked with a sculptor 2021-03-08T20:10:40Z snan: Or used Blender 2021-03-08T20:13:57Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-08T20:14:40Z cchristiansen left #scheme 2021-03-08T20:15:49Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T20:18:52Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T20:18:52Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-08T20:19:26Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T20:23:22Z snan: OK, I'm painting up a 2D painting of a simple FizzBuzz right now. But it's like just a snapshot 2021-03-08T20:23:34Z snan: In reality I'm swimming around with these buoys, floating around with them 2021-03-08T20:23:56Z Zipheir: Nice. 2021-03-08T20:28:30Z terrorjack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T20:35:11Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:38:38Z jjjd joined #scheme 2021-03-08T20:39:17Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-03-08T20:39:21Z jjjd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:41:09Z terrorjack joined #scheme 2021-03-08T20:41:51Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T20:46:21Z wasamasa: more specifically, I encourage people to not spill the pringles 2021-03-08T20:46:42Z wasamasa: it's a more fun way of looking at lone closing parentheses 2021-03-08T20:53:49Z snan: https://idiomdrottning.org/buoys.png 2021-03-08T20:54:31Z snan: So the ropes going under the buoys are lists while the ropes going over them are, uh, variable references 2021-03-08T20:55:21Z snan: That "i" is referenced defined once and then referenced twice more 2021-03-08T20:56:38Z snan: This is the code: https://ellen.idiomdrottning.org/fizzbuzz.scm.txt although I made the lambda as just one buoy here. In reality I could swim into it also 2021-03-08T20:56:52Z snan: But the "i" is referenced inside there so there's a rope in therte 2021-03-08T20:56:56Z snan: in there* 2021-03-08T20:59:49Z snan: Uh, the nick highlighting thing that I usually don't, but sometimes do, forget: wasamasa Zipheir 2021-03-08T21:00:06Z wasamasa: what about it? 2021-03-08T21:00:26Z Garbanzo_ joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:00:27Z snan: Uh IDK just thought you were part of the convo 2021-03-08T21:00:49Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:00:51Z snan: Since you invented the not spilling pringles thing 2021-03-08T21:01:06Z snan: I agree that it's awful when there are lone closing parens 2021-03-08T21:02:01Z snan: Guh now I feel bad, self-conscious, dumb, naive etc. But that's fine. I can cope with feeling that way 2021-03-08T21:02:09Z snan: Emotions are interesting things 2021-03-08T21:03:07Z wasamasa: "The parentheses grow lonely if their closing brackets are all kept separated and segregated." 2021-03-08T21:03:08Z snan: It's so weird seeing a static snapshot of it like this. Really the map would be "giving" the elems to the proc 2021-03-08T21:03:17Z wasamasa: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt 2021-03-08T21:03:38Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:05:00Z snan: I agree with that document 2021-03-08T21:06:29Z snan: define colour-names nooo 2021-03-08T21:06:32Z snan: That loox weird 2021-03-08T21:08:22Z snan: Huh, I like Edwin's list indentation, I've been using GNU Emacs' style for 20 years 2021-03-08T21:08:56Z snan: Three seconds later I got reconvinced to use GNU Emacs' style 2021-03-08T21:09:17Z snan: Their own literals example 2021-03-08T21:10:43Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:11:14Z Garbanzo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:11:19Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T21:11:26Z Zipheir: snan: Wow, that was fast. 2021-03-08T21:11:38Z Zipheir: snan: I like it. 2021-03-08T21:11:51Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:11:55Z snan: Do you see what I mean. So the ropes aren't really the parens 2021-03-08T21:13:33Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T21:13:43Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:13:58Z snan: This is also why I get tripped up by a Lisp-2 2021-03-08T21:14:25Z snan: A Lisp-2 is like programming in the ethereal plane at the same time as in the material plane 2021-03-08T21:14:31Z snan: I have to pull things in and out of there 2021-03-08T21:14:38Z snan: With sharp quotes and such 2021-03-08T21:16:46Z snan: Maybe this is also why I like short programs with stuff inlined if possible, and implicit naming instead of explicit binding 2021-03-08T21:16:57Z snan: Because it keeps the tangle neater 2021-03-08T21:23:01Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:24:38Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:30:42Z snan: Zipheir: here is an annotated version: https://ellen.idiomdrottning.org/buoys-annotated.png 2021-03-08T21:31:59Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T21:32:35Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:38:14Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:38:27Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-08T21:39:19Z gagbo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-08T21:40:16Z testnick88 joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:45:14Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:49:02Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:49:18Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-08T21:52:24Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T21:59:01Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:02:53Z hidetora quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-08T22:03:51Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:05:21Z nalaginrut joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:12:46Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:15:31Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T22:16:16Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:26:38Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:29:01Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:30:31Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:31:06Z dpk: i used to use my own idiosyncratic indentation rules for Lisp code. they were fairly close to Emacs’s, but not identical. since i later switched to Emacs, and fighting electric-indent-mode is guaranteed to drive anyone insane (why i spent the weekend configuring a major mode that hasn’t been properly maintained in nearly 20 years, in order to get HTML indented and formatted as i prefer it without tearing my hair out), i chose the path of 2021-03-08T22:31:06Z dpk: least resistance and adopted the Emacs style entirely 2021-03-08T22:31:36Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:34:29Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:36:38Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:38:48Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:40:12Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:40:14Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-08T22:51:39Z JokerAscensionEx joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:52:10Z cchristiansen quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-03-08T22:56:03Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-08T22:59:43Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T23:00:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:05:26Z jobol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T23:05:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:06:58Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:07:02Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:07:18Z snan: I'm pretty happy with the indentation on my HTML web 2021-03-08T23:20:33Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:25:48Z Wezl: Is it good style to put earmuffs on constant globals, or just mutable globals? 2021-03-08T23:26:21Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:29:37Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:30:56Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:35:12Z Zipheir: Wezl: Riastradh's style guide has a great comment on that topic. "Affix asterisks to the beginning and end of a globally mutable variable. This allows the reader of the program to recognize very easily that it is badly written!" 2021-03-08T23:35:46Z Zipheir: Wezl: Yes, the convention is usually reserved for mutable global variables. 2021-03-08T23:37:19Z Wezl: yeah, I was reading there 2021-03-08T23:39:13Z Wezl: ok now I have no *s in my code, except for a let* :) 2021-03-08T23:41:22Z _________ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:41:44Z _________ joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:42:58Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:43:30Z skapate quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:46:53Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:47:50Z Zipheir: * also sometimes denotes a "primed" identifier, which (I think) is the origin of the name let*. 2021-03-08T23:49:47Z richbridger quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-08T23:50:07Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:50:29Z mange joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:52:20Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T23:54:44Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-08T23:55:20Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-03-08T23:55:38Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:57:01Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-08T23:58:08Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-08T23:59:58Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:00:40Z madagest joined #scheme 2021-03-09T00:01:49Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-09T00:02:01Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-09T00:14:57Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:20:16Z madagest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T00:20:33Z madagest joined #scheme 2021-03-09T00:23:09Z dTal: Globals have their place 2021-03-09T00:23:28Z madagest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T00:31:39Z aeth: not really. 2021-03-09T00:31:44Z aeth: I prefer just passing in everything 2021-03-09T00:33:06Z madagest joined #scheme 2021-03-09T00:47:53Z lockywolf: that style guide lost it's efficiency in 2011 2021-03-09T00:50:44Z Zipheir: Efficiency? 2021-03-09T00:52:50Z lockywolf: Effect? Validity? Unexpiredness? 2021-03-09T00:53:40Z lockywolf: the second line says it is valid from 2007 to 2011 2021-03-09T00:54:08Z Zipheir: A style guide with an expiration date? 2021-03-09T00:54:54Z lockywolf: I think most standards have an expiration date. 2021-03-09T00:56:32Z lockywolf: http://blog.matroid.org/display/79#:~:text=The%20Common%20Lisp%20standard%20has%20had%20different%20names,the%20American%20National%20Standards%20Institute%20%28ANSI%29%20in%201961. 2021-03-09T00:56:32Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/UbxVEREUB3 2021-03-09T00:57:02Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:57:24Z lockywolf: this is obviously a joke 2021-03-09T00:58:20Z lockywolf: but now I've spent 4 months trying to arrange files on my laptop in an acceptable way, and I am starting to think that every piece of information needs to have an expiration date 2021-03-09T00:58:25Z Zipheir: Maybe Riastradh no longer agrees with some of the things in that guide. I like a lot of its points. 2021-03-09T00:58:49Z lockywolf: at which it should either be reaffirmed, revised, retracted or removed 2021-03-09T00:59:31Z webshinra_ joined #scheme 2021-03-09T00:59:35Z lockywolf: ow, no doubt :) 2021-03-09T00:59:36Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-09T00:59:50Z aeth: My favorite version of the Common Lisp stanard is from 1247 CE. Everything after that is kind of unnecessary. 2021-03-09T01:00:49Z aeth: The Egyptian hieroglyphic form of the Scheme standard is a nice read, though. 2021-03-09T01:01:20Z lockywolf: i had been in a group chat on Telegram about pl-s and similar things, and there was a guy who was advocating Haskell with a lot of vigour, and pointing to all nice features and such 2021-03-09T01:02:02Z lockywolf: and some time later he admitted that he had used to most of his work in Haskell, until he switched to bash 2021-03-09T01:02:20Z Zipheir: That's quite a leap. 2021-03-09T01:02:24Z lockywolf: :D 2021-03-09T01:03:37Z Zipheir: It's almost difficult to think of two more different languages. 2021-03-09T01:04:11Z aeth: Brainfuck and $any_other_language perhaps? 2021-03-09T01:04:37Z lockywolf: isn't bf kinda like an assembler without a RAM? 2021-03-09T01:05:26Z aeth: without registers or stacks, which makes it hard to compile to 2021-03-09T01:05:35Z aeth: you can live without RAM :-) 2021-03-09T01:06:19Z aeth: Oh, and all offsets are relative rather than absolute. That also hurts. 2021-03-09T01:06:29Z lockywolf: I vaguely remember from uni times. isn't bf kinda the Minsky machine? 2021-03-09T01:06:56Z aeth: If you had absolute addresses instead of relative offsets, you could make your own registers-and/or-stacks and compile to Brainfuck with some performance loss 2021-03-09T01:07:07Z lockywolf: the smallest possible model of computation in terms of mathematical operations 2021-03-09T01:07:35Z lockywolf: and now you have quadratic loss, right? 2021-03-09T01:08:27Z dieggsy: motion to pronounce srfi "surfee" lol 2021-03-09T01:08:36Z dieggsy: which I guess is a surfboard. or a wave. 2021-03-09T01:08:45Z aeth: no, it's pronounced like sirfi 2021-03-09T01:08:57Z aeth: which depending on how you read that, is exactly the same :-p 2021-03-09T01:09:00Z dieggsy: aeth: I'm reading those equivalently 2021-03-09T01:09:08Z dieggsy: well, in english I am 2021-03-09T01:09:17Z lockywolf: I think, Arthur pronounces srfi kinda that way. 2021-03-09T01:09:23Z aeth: I guess you could say "fi" as "fie" where it's a long i (literally just "I") instead of an ee 2021-03-09T01:09:46Z aeth: e.g. sofi, a finance company 2021-03-09T01:09:46Z lockywolf: Sir Fee 2021-03-09T01:09:51Z dieggsy: oh, well. I was just joking. but if it's actually pronounced like that lol 2021-03-09T01:10:12Z lockywolf: because there used to be a fee for proposing and srfi 2021-03-09T01:10:23Z lockywolf: ;) 2021-03-09T01:10:39Z lockywolf: but you could get a waiver if you were a Sir 2021-03-09T01:10:51Z aeth: which is why 87% of early SRFI authors were British 2021-03-09T01:11:56Z dieggsy: jajajaj 2021-03-09T01:13:45Z dieggsy: has lisp/scheme have macros from the very beginning? or did those come in well after the language was introduced 2021-03-09T01:13:51Z dieggsy: had* 2021-03-09T01:15:23Z lockywolf: I think I had asked this question in this very chat, and got a response that lisp had macros from very early on. 2021-03-09T01:15:46Z lockywolf: from before the schism 2021-03-09T01:17:56Z dieggsy: that's wild 2021-03-09T01:18:13Z dieggsy: idk why. just that someone came up with that that early on lol 2021-03-09T01:20:17Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-09T01:21:12Z lockywolf: it's not "early on" 2021-03-09T01:21:23Z lockywolf: it's just that we are "slow learners" 2021-03-09T01:21:25Z ex_nihilo: dieggsy: macros were originally used by programmers working in assembly language 2021-03-09T01:22:53Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T01:27:27Z xandkar1 quit (Quit: xandkar1) 2021-03-09T01:28:35Z dieggsy: ex_nihilo: were they as rich as lisp macros? or was it more like C macros now 2021-03-09T01:29:02Z madagest quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-09T01:29:30Z aeth: you can just write your asm in s-expression form and use your own macros 2021-03-09T01:31:47Z dieggsy: wat 2021-03-09T01:32:08Z lockywolf: can you? 2021-03-09T01:32:36Z lockywolf: I don't think there is a production-ready assembler with s-exp read syntax. 2021-03-09T01:33:44Z Wezl: wat kind of uses s-exps, though it doesn't have macros 2021-03-09T01:33:48Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T01:33:58Z Wezl: (web assembly text format) 2021-03-09T01:34:28Z ex_nihilo: dieggsy: I only ever used one macro assembler; it was 6502 assembly language, and the macros were more like C macros than Lisp macros, but that was in the '80s. I may not remember them as well as I should; macros were nice compared with cranking out a hundred lines of assembler to update a scoreboard. I don't know what assembly macros looked like in the really early days 2021-03-09T01:34:40Z dieggsy: Wezl: lmao 2021-03-09T01:34:42Z Wezl realizes dieggsy already said that, thought they said "what" 2021-03-09T01:35:08Z dieggsy: Wezl: no, I was asking "what" with more comical spelling. that's hilarious 2021-03-09T01:35:47Z lockywolf: it's a shame that scsh only supports Scheme48 2021-03-09T01:36:12Z dieggsy: lockywolf: scsh-process in chicken is nice fwiw 2021-03-09T01:41:17Z lockywolf: scsh seems to have its pieces all over the Scheme world 2021-03-09T01:41:54Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-09T01:47:26Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-09T01:52:41Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-09T01:52:59Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-09T01:53:09Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-09T01:56:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-09T02:01:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-09T02:04:18Z s-video joined #scheme 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For making NES games. They can have macros. 2021-03-09T05:58:03Z mdhughes: This is the one I used: https://archive.org/details/AtariMacroAssembler 2021-03-09T06:04:35Z rickygee joined #scheme 2021-03-09T06:13:04Z zdravko joined #scheme 2021-03-09T06:13:22Z zdravko: join /##typescript 2021-03-09T06:18:22Z snan: I never got very far, it just displayed some sprites and then I got bored but I had this import line in SBCL (:use :common-lisp :6502 :6502-modes :asm6502 :asm6502-utility :asm6502-nes) 2021-03-09T06:18:46Z snan: It was fun 2021-03-09T06:18:54Z snan: My backburner is overly long right now 2021-03-09T06:24:13Z lockywolf: What is a backburner? 2021-03-09T06:29:13Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-09T06:30:53Z snan: A long list of unfulfilled dreams and vaporware 2021-03-09T06:32:28Z lockywolf: just hire some employees to work for you 2021-03-09T06:32:42Z snan: Maybe I will 2021-03-09T06:32:46Z snan: Thanks for the advice 2021-03-09T06:32:58Z lockywolf: ;) 2021-03-09T06:33:19Z snan: Not that any of the ideas are money-making in any way whatsoever. But, that's a SMOF 2021-03-09T06:33:40Z lockywolf: sorry, my sense of humour is a little grim recently 2021-03-09T06:34:16Z snan: It was funny 2021-03-09T06:34:20Z snan: I appreciated it 2021-03-09T06:37:52Z lockywolf: A friend of mine once told me a story: in the early days of dating apps, there was a Russian app that maintained a public "ranking of couples". 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Anywhere.) 2021-03-10T03:17:04Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T03:38:27Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T03:48:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T03:48:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-10T03:51:25Z jcowan: I just say "Zero?" with a question intonation 2021-03-10T03:56:11Z edgar-rft: how often do you say that per day? :-) 2021-03-10T04:02:26Z irstlovef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T04:03:39Z aeth: edgar-rft: if the correct answer is zero, does that make responding a paradox? Or is it only a paradox when there's a "?", in which case only knowing about the potential for a paradox makes it a paradox, because it changes the answer from "zero" to "zero?" 2021-03-10T04:03:58Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-10T04:08:58Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T04:13:19Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T04:15:36Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-10T04:16:42Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-10T04:28:16Z jcowan: Not very often, no. 2021-03-10T04:28:35Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-10T04:41:36Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-10T04:42:25Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-10T04:53:21Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T04:55:04Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T04:55:05Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T04:55:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-10T04:55:42Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-10T04:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T04:58:28Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-10T04:59:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T04:59:37Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-10T05:00:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T05:00:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-10T05:03:38Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T05:05:28Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-10T05:13:55Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-10T05:41:53Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-03-10T05:42:02Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T05:42:55Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-10T05:43:17Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T05:43:47Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-03-10T06:03:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-10T06:07:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T06:12:11Z mdhughes: -p is very LISP-in-jokey. Maybe it should be pronounced -isit in Scheme. zero-isit, string-isit 2021-03-10T06:13:59Z irstlovef joined #scheme 2021-03-10T06:20:01Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T06:22:06Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-10T06:24:32Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T06:27:33Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T06:28:15Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T06:29:34Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-10T06:37:40Z snan: I said the other day that I say zerop but I'm not sure I do. 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2021-03-10T17:12:20Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T17:12:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-10T17:13:03Z ohama joined #scheme 2021-03-10T17:17:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-10T17:19:19Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-10T17:35:26Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-10T17:39:41Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T17:39:59Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-10T17:44:19Z amerigo joined #scheme 2021-03-10T17:44:27Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T17:44:49Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-10T17:46:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T17:53:34Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T17:53:40Z Wezl_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T17:57:05Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-10T18:09:46Z snan: Zipheir: watching the strange loop taste of dependent types video now 2021-03-10T18:09:48Z snan: For some reason 2021-03-10T18:17:01Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-10T18:17:03Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T18:17:41Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-10T18:18:29Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T18:19:21Z xandkar1 quit (Quit: xandkar1) 2021-03-10T18:19:59Z xandkar1 joined #scheme 2021-03-10T18:20:20Z xandkar1 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-10T18:23:24Z Zipheir: snan: Great! I love that talk. There's a video of him doing it at a comedy club, as well, which must have taken nerves of steel. 2021-03-10T18:23:41Z snan: I used to do stand up bitd 2021-03-10T18:23:52Z snan: I got a lot of complaints afterwards 2021-03-10T18:24:14Z Zipheir: (The genre of computer science stand-up is under-represented.) 2021-03-10T18:25:10Z Zipheir: Oh wait, you were talking about the Christiansen talk. I was thinking of Wadler's Propositions as Types. 2021-03-10T18:25:38Z Zipheir: I was a little disappointed by Christiansen's thing. Maybe it was just the super-quiet audience; he didn't get much of a response. 2021-03-10T18:25:48Z snan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxINoKFm-S4 2021-03-10T18:26:18Z Zipheir: "I know we're in Scandinavia and audience participation isn't much of a thing, but ..." 2021-03-10T18:27:01Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's the Little Typer one. 2021-03-10T18:28:01Z Zipheir: It gives a good demonstration of the collaborative style of some dependently-typed language systems. Create a hole (TODO, in Pie), fill a hole, and so on. 2021-03-10T18:28:38Z snan: I saw a couple of videos by the NoRedInk guy on that opic also. They use Elm 2021-03-10T18:30:11Z snan: (define (...) (error "not implemented yet")) ← can be pretty fun 2021-03-10T18:30:36Z Zipheir: Sure. 2021-03-10T18:31:23Z Zipheir: The nice thing about typed holes, though, is that the type of what's supposed to be there is available and gets continually refined as more detail is added around it. 2021-03-10T18:33:42Z snan: I saw the programming in the dark one for example 2021-03-10T18:33:53Z snan: I mean crafting in the dark 2021-03-10T18:34:53Z snan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_HveL2OVkc 2021-03-10T18:35:34Z snan: Apparently these peeps have experienced the same kinda joy as I did when I first found a REPL 2021-03-10T18:36:06Z snan: Like a "wow you can talk to the language and see that everything works" feeling 2021-03-10T18:36:48Z snan: I'm still missing the appeal. But I don't watch these just to pick at it or attack it. It's to give it a chance 2021-03-10T18:37:03Z Wezl_: Exactly, I first learned C and next learned lisp and I'm never going back 2021-03-10T18:37:09Z Wezl_ is now known as Wezl 2021-03-10T18:38:09Z snan: I programmed basic and pascal as a kid but once I grew up my first languages were Scheme, ASM, AWK, dc, shell etc. I only later learned C 2021-03-10T18:38:10Z Zipheir: snan: Thanks, I'll take a look. 2021-03-10T18:38:33Z irstlovef joined #scheme 2021-03-10T18:40:04Z snan: I like to recommend Scheme and ASM as the first two languages for people. Scheme to get algoritms and metaprogramming and syntax/AST and highlevel stuff, and ASM to see how a von Neumann arch works 2021-03-10T18:40:10Z Zipheir: Wezl: SICP memorably describes a character as "a reformed C programmer" in one exercise. 2021-03-10T18:40:52Z snan: Peeps I've given The Little Schemer to haven't really thrived with it. Kind of regret it because it became an obstacle for them rather than a stepping stone 2021-03-10T18:40:54Z Zipheir: snan: If you do SICP, you can just learn the SICP register machine language. 2021-03-10T18:41:13Z snan: That's a good idea, Zipheir 2021-03-10T18:41:20Z snan: I think SICP is a good second book 2021-03-10T18:41:53Z Zipheir: It's quite a monster. I'm not sure I'd recommend it to everyone, at least not right away. 2021-03-10T18:41:57Z snan: I went "Teach yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days", SICP, TLS/TSS, On Lisp, PAIP. That order 2021-03-10T18:42:24Z snan: I wouldn't've understood SICP right away, but, I think TLS/TSS after SICP didn't give me that muhc 2021-03-10T18:42:34Z snan: I mean, familiarity and comfort with the patterns, and that's not nothing 2021-03-10T18:43:00Z Zipheir: Yeah. The Seasoned Schemer does have some details of Scheme that SICP ignores, like call/cc (well, letcc). 2021-03-10T18:43:50Z Zipheir: It's hard to beat SICP for sheer coverage. Every other book on CS seems familiar in places after SICP. 2021-03-10T18:44:08Z snan: I wonder if my sister did Seasoned at one point because I had the Y combinator function on DYMO tape in my kitchen (uh, this was before the dorky company named after that function) and she was like "Why do you have the Y combinator function in your kitchen ceiling?" 2021-03-10T18:44:11Z snan: She is a genius I think 2021-03-10T18:44:29Z Zipheir: Wow. 2021-03-10T18:44:30Z snan: Yes, SICP is amazing 2021-03-10T18:44:59Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T18:45:13Z snan: OK, video over nom 2021-03-10T18:45:15Z snan: now 2021-03-10T18:45:21Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T18:45:58Z snan: One of my fave CS books is To Mock a Mockingbird 2021-03-10T18:46:04Z snan: It teaches SKI 2021-03-10T18:46:09Z xandkar1 joined #scheme 2021-03-10T18:47:49Z Zipheir: snan: That one's on my to-read list. I read What Is The Name of This Book? recently, which I think is sort of a companion volume. 2021-03-10T18:47:55Z snan: Yeah, it is 2021-03-10T18:48:32Z snan: I lost all of mine 2021-03-10T18:49:01Z snan: I was reading the Sherlock Holmes Chess Mysteries one 2021-03-10T18:49:07Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T18:49:15Z remexre joined #scheme 2021-03-10T18:53:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-10T18:53:46Z snan: I barely remember any of that combinatorial stuff 2021-03-10T18:54:01Z snan: It was so long ago and I don't use it on the day to day really 2021-03-10T18:54:34Z snan: Long chains of disjoin and compose, sure 2021-03-10T18:54:43Z snan: That's good enough for me and Bobby McGee 2021-03-10T18:55:33Z snan: I've found another bug in lowdown 2021-03-10T18:56:46Z wasamasa: ohno 2021-03-10T18:57:25Z snan: It's something that gets spliced away normally 2021-03-10T18:57:34Z snan: When doing the HTML 2021-03-10T18:57:49Z snan: It's only when you're using the intermediary format, as I am, that it's an issue 2021-03-10T18:58:50Z snan: It's that items get emitted as (item ("my precious item")) instead of the more correct (item "my precious item") 2021-03-10T19:00:34Z iv4nshm4k0v: snan: My recommendation would be to consider Javascript for a first language; mainly because one can easily show their code around: both the runtime and the development environment are already everywhere. It's pretty much 21st century equivalent of the 80s' BASIC. 2021-03-10T19:05:08Z Zipheir: Amusingly, the difference in size and complexity between an old-school BASIC intepreter and a JS interpreter is many orders of magnitude. 2021-03-10T19:05:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-10T19:06:19Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:07:23Z snan: I like JS 2021-03-10T19:07:27Z snan: It's fun 2021-03-10T19:07:34Z snan: It shouldn't be a web language though 2021-03-10T19:07:43Z snan: https://idiomdrottning.org/runaway-javascript 2021-03-10T19:08:09Z snan: I don't think JS or Basic or even Ruby make good starting languages 2021-03-10T19:08:40Z snan: Lisp or Smalltalk or Forth is where it's at for beginners I think 2021-03-10T19:08:57Z snan: So they really really see what they are doing, in terms of syntax 2021-03-10T19:09:58Z snan: A high sugar language is convinient and fun for office type stuff but not if you want to really grok things in a way that gives you X ray vision into all other languages ever 2021-03-10T19:10:04Z snan: Which Lisp does 2021-03-10T19:10:13Z snan: It makes you see beyond sight 2021-03-10T19:10:53Z iv4nshm4k0v: snan: IME for a lot of novices, the hardest part in learning programming is not syntax but finding motivation for it. Javascript allows writing something that can be passed around with little hassle; for a large fraction of those who learn programming, this can be quite motivating. 2021-03-10T19:13:18Z aeth: It's more like... never giving up, but also never stopping the self-criticism so you can actually constantly improve. The combination is hard. 2021-03-10T19:14:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:15:10Z hugo joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:15:36Z Zipheir: "Failure is easy to deal with: Work hard to improve. Success is also easy: You've solved the wrong problem. Work hard to improve." (Alan Perlis) 2021-03-10T19:15:39Z iv4nshm4k0v: (I work at a university. Not as a lecturer, at least not right now, but still.) 2021-03-10T19:15:55Z snan: Oh, I did last summer 2021-03-10T19:16:30Z snan: I was teaching masters students which felt weird since I only have a bachelor's. That's right, that's why I'm always so Dunning-Kruger armchair CS in here 2021-03-10T19:16:39Z snan: Because I don't really know what I'm talking about 2021-03-10T19:16:50Z snan: Fun fun fun./. 2021-03-10T19:17:29Z snan: My thinking with the no to JavaScript, Basic is that it doesn't really teach you for real. I kind of felt like I wasted a decade on those kinds of languages 2021-03-10T19:17:48Z snan: Of course going to those kinds of languages after Lisp is all in good fun 2021-03-10T19:18:18Z snan: But like, a loooot of programmers out there they just cut and paste from StackExchange, the modern day equivalent of typing in Basic games from magazines 2021-03-10T19:18:22Z Zipheir: Writing a BASIC interpreter is a good project for novice programmers. 2021-03-10T19:18:35Z snan: That's the sort of surface, shallow understanding of languages I had before Lisp 2021-03-10T19:18:43Z snan: I was the human compiler at work basically 2021-03-10T19:18:54Z snan: Writing gotos for every possible input 2021-03-10T19:19:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T19:21:20Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: I'm thinking that part of the motivation problem for new programmers is that there's so much software out there. This is not the 1960s when, if you could write a FORTRAN compiler for X system, you'd have dozens of users (and perhaps financial opportunities) in a week. The bar for new software projects is high, which might be discouraging. 2021-03-10T19:22:18Z amirouche2: seems relatable 2021-03-10T19:24:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:28:53Z jcowan: BTW, if anyone wants a Little book.... 2021-03-10T19:29:10Z jcowan: cowan@ccil.org, if you prefer 2021-03-10T19:29:19Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-10T19:29:59Z Zipheir: Same here. Let me know. 2021-03-10T19:30:12Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: That too, but I can't say I'm concerned much for those who consider "programming" as something they can make a living of. I'm a physics major myself, and what I'm concerned is physics students who more often than not can't amass enough programming skill to put a computer to any use beyond writing a report. (Like, report on what? On mouse-driving?..) 2021-03-10T19:30:27Z Zipheir: (Samizdat load-balancing.) 2021-03-10T19:31:17Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: Like https://xkcd.com/2341/ ? 2021-03-10T19:32:28Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-10T19:33:29Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T19:33:30Z stultulo joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:34:09Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T19:34:18Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:34:39Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:34:45Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:35:16Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: Either that or http://coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ . 2021-03-10T19:35:19Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:35:34Z copec_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:35:35Z wigust- joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:36:00Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:36:55Z nilgeisw` joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:37:04Z raingloom_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:37:30Z ramrunne1 joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:37:32Z alelos- joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:37:37Z taw10_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:37:50Z amirouche2 bookmark 2021-03-10T19:37:59Z massimo_zaniboni joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:38:09Z tox joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:38:14Z Zipheir_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:38:24Z ohama quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-10T19:38:28Z crypto joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:38:50Z ohama joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:40:55Z iv4nshm4k0v: Funnily enough, getting data from a plot in some paper into a TSV file is indeed something that's still being done at the chair. 2021-03-10T19:42:15Z pounce- joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z raingloom quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z s-video quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z elliott_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z nilgeisw quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:43Z copec quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:44Z f8l quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:42:44Z pounce quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z littleme quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z snan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z mzan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z Zipheir quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z taw10 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z ramrunner quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z alelos quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z wigust quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z nevermind quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z copec_ is now known as copec 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:44:23Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T19:45:11Z crypto is now known as z0d 2021-03-10T19:56:29Z nevermind joined #scheme 2021-03-10T19:58:26Z nilgeisw` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-10T19:58:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-10T20:02:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T20:04:33Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-10T20:08:10Z Zipheir_ is now known as Zipheir 2021-03-10T20:14:51Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-10T20:15:53Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-10T20:16:10Z taw10_ is now known as taw10 2021-03-10T20:16:15Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-10T20:17:21Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T20:19:11Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-10T20:21:51Z snan joined #scheme 2021-03-10T20:32:17Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-10T20:36:51Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-10T20:38:45Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-10T20:41:09Z amirouche2: that blog post is brillant 2021-03-10T20:41:15Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-10T20:45:26Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T20:47:03Z supercoven_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T20:53:58Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-10T20:59:30Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-10T20:59:36Z Wezl_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:00:39Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:01:23Z dpk: is there an R7RS which runs in the browser yet? (other, i guess, than by emscriptening Chibi) 2021-03-10T21:03:33Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:04:18Z gwatt: dpk: biwascheme claims to implement most of r7rs small. syntax-rules, exceptions, and libraries are missing. 2021-03-10T21:04:57Z amirouche2: dpk: gambit 2021-03-10T21:05:29Z testnick88 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T21:06:07Z wasamasa: amirouche2: have you looked into adjusting the srfi-167 code to the new pack/unpack behavior? 2021-03-10T21:08:34Z dpk: gwatt: i consider those to be the most important parts, heh 2021-03-10T21:08:39Z dpk: (well, syntax-rules and libraries are) 2021-03-10T21:09:02Z dpk: http://gambitscheme.org/ superb website 2021-03-10T21:09:13Z wasamasa: lol 2021-03-10T21:09:14Z gwatt: dpk: fair enough. :) It's the only scheme I know of that targets javascript 2021-03-10T21:09:49Z dpk: i note with frustration that, although ES6 was supposed to give us proper tail calls in JavaScript, only one browser has implemented it 2021-03-10T21:10:01Z dpk: (and it's the least popular one) 2021-03-10T21:12:13Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-10T21:13:11Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:13:49Z dpk: hah, Eli Barzilay has been bugging the Chrome people about it https://bugs.chromium.org/p/v8/issues/detail?id=4698 2021-03-10T21:13:52Z amirouche2: dpk: https://pre-srfi.github.io/webui/demos/03-todomvc/ 2021-03-10T21:14:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:14:43Z dpk: apparently they're pulling the old "it makes debugging impossible" card 2021-03-10T21:16:14Z Wezl_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:16:47Z dpk: which i knew implementers or perhaps JS developers would raise, and are also why i think they should have made tail calls opt-in on a per-call basis. they had a 'goto' reserved word in previous versions of ECMAScript that didn't actually do anything (except, i believe, in one version of Mozilla's JS implementation that someone hacked to be able to port Doom to run in the browser, back before Emscripten even existed), they could have used that 2021-03-10T21:18:10Z dpk: amirouche2: i say, that *is* rather nifty 2021-03-10T21:19:55Z jcowan: I filed an issue against janino (the Java version of tcc) to provide tail recursion via goto, but they thought it was out of scope. 2021-03-10T21:21:22Z polezaivsani quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:23:58Z dpk: Mozilla, meanwhile, just haven't touched it in 5 years https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=723959 2021-03-10T21:24:17Z dpk: (Schemers also present there) 2021-03-10T21:26:05Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-10T21:30:55Z Wezl_ joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:31:41Z amirouche3 joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:34:50Z amirouche2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:36:02Z jcowan: I see that both ES6 and Safari call it PTC (which shows Scheme influence right there) 2021-03-10T21:36:58Z jcowan snickers 2021-03-10T21:37:10Z jcowan: "Some say the debugging issues [are] a deal breaker, and the performance issues will kill profiling. Others disregard this as FUD, since Safari implemented PTC and hell is still closed." 2021-03-10T21:37:57Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:37:59Z jcowan: (The main hit for "hell is still closed" is "The trail to Bumpass Hell is still closed due to snow" from 2015 2021-03-10T21:39:35Z jcowan: From the WebKit blog: "We call our shadow stack implementation ShadowChicken. The name is an homage to the CHICKEN scheme interpreter." ~~ wow ~~ 2021-03-10T21:40:03Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:41:58Z dpk: i wonder if Andy Wingo implemented any of this. i know he's been hired before to add stuff to V8 2021-03-10T21:42:01Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:42:22Z jcowan: I think the political oppo has always been too high to overcome 2021-03-10T21:42:23Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:43:09Z jcowan: See this rock crusher / sockdolager: http://funcall.blogspot.com/2011/03/tail-recursion-and-debugging.html 2021-03-10T21:44:13Z dpk: haha 2021-03-10T21:45:03Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-10T21:47:55Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-10T21:56:28Z belmarca9543185 is now known as belmarca 2021-03-10T21:57:37Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-10T22:12:31Z snan: jcowan: wow, one of the comments down at the bottom... 2021-03-10T22:13:39Z snan: !dict PTC 2021-03-10T22:17:03Z jcowan: proper tail calling (mandatory) as opposed to tail-call optimization (non-mandatory) 2021-03-10T22:18:23Z jcowan: From one of my LinkedIn recommendations: "It's not uncommon to be in a meeting with him [about XML technology] when another participant recognizes him from functional programming, English philology, or some equally independent field. 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So they did, although McC was not responsible for any of the details of Basic. 2021-03-11T00:18:27Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T00:22:35Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-11T00:23:13Z X-Scale: Time Sharing always makes me remember Corbato. 2021-03-11T00:35:05Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-11T00:46:11Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T00:48:33Z richbridger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T00:51:02Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-11T00:57:48Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T01:00:35Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T01:08:52Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T01:09:48Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T01:10:15Z partyclicker joined #scheme 2021-03-11T01:12:38Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T01:14:42Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-03-11T01:34:36Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T01:35:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T01:40:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T01:52:32Z raingloom_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-11T01:53:34Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-11T01:55:51Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2021-03-11T02:06:52Z Garbanzo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:09:11Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-03-11T02:10:28Z tox is now known as littleme 2021-03-11T02:12:09Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T02:13:05Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-11T02:22:24Z brendyyn joined #scheme 2021-03-11T02:22:58Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T02:30:32Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-11T02:31:33Z gzj quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T02:31:50Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-11T02:32:16Z rmrfchi joined #scheme 2021-03-11T02:35:32Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T02:36:30Z rmrfchik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:37:02Z jcowan: X-Scale: You knew him personally? 2021-03-11T02:54:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:54:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-11T02:55:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T02:55:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-11T03:03:20Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-11T03:08:28Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T03:21:54Z rickygee joined #scheme 2021-03-11T03:28:36Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-11T03:36:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T03:41:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T03:42:46Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-11T03:46:20Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T03:47:33Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T03:49:18Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-03-11T03:49:18Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2021-03-11T03:49:18Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-03-11T03:55:12Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-11T03:56:53Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T04:00:03Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T04:02:26Z rickygee joined #scheme 2021-03-11T04:26:13Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T04:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T04:28:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-11T04:46:18Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T04:58:09Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T05:00:19Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-03-11T05:01:50Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T05:20:29Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T05:20:47Z jcowan: dpk: a minor comment and a major one on typed Scheme. Democracy did not come to Scheme until R7RS; before that it was all consensus. The Chicken fast-generic egg is IMO the right way to do generic functions, and R7RS-large does parametric polymorphism with SRFI 128 comparators. Forthcoming will be a library for dictionaries, and later another for sequences. 2021-03-11T05:26:48Z Zipheir: Doesn't SRFI 128 represent the Scheme version of typeclass polymorphism? I don't think Scheme has an analog of parametric polymorphism. 2021-03-11T05:29:25Z rickygee joined #scheme 2021-03-11T05:30:01Z Zipheir: A parametrically polymorphic function would be something like a make-vector with a required fill argument, with type e.g. ∀ t : Type -> natural -> t -> vector(t) 2021-03-11T05:31:27Z Zipheir: Scheme's heterogenous vectors/lists/etc. make that kind thinking unidiomatic. 2021-03-11T05:31:35Z Zipheir: s/kind/kind of/ 2021-03-11T05:34:39Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T05:41:33Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-11T05:46:45Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T05:49:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T05:50:26Z brendyyn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T05:54:00Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-11T05:54:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T05:59:10Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-11T06:26:16Z nilgeisw joined #scheme 2021-03-11T06:48:20Z amirouche3 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:01:45Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:03:20Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-11T07:04:14Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:05:54Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:05:54Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-11T07:17:54Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:20:26Z midre joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:21:21Z ggole joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:25:14Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:25:54Z midre joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:26:06Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:26:18Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:29:47Z amirouche: wasamasa: I am working on a simpler implementation without cruft, do you prefer to fix srfi 167 / 168 sample implementation? 2021-03-11T07:30:04Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:37:17Z wasamasa: amirouche: the price for standardizing something is having the balls to fix mistakes in it 2021-03-11T07:37:35Z wasamasa: amirouche: don't treat a SRFI like a personal throwaway project 2021-03-11T07:37:58Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:38:27Z amirouche nods 2021-03-11T07:38:53Z wasamasa: I don't know what you mean by simpler implementation though, but I guess a different API ultimately 2021-03-11T07:39:44Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:39:49Z amirouche: the big problem is that it is difficult to work with the SRFI repo 2021-03-11T07:40:27Z amirouche: I am forced to move the code to another repo, do the changes on both SRFI-167 168 then copy back the changes to their respective repo 2021-03-11T07:40:50Z amirouche: no ? 2021-03-11T07:41:24Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T07:41:29Z wasamasa: I've recently finished up my code comparing json/nstore/sqlite storage for doing taxonomy queries 2021-03-11T07:42:02Z wasamasa: the figures are like 1.2s/1.0s/0.2s 2021-03-11T07:42:16Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:42:34Z wasamasa: I suspect that loading data from lmdb and unserializing it is marginally faster than doing it from a bunch of json 2021-03-11T07:43:02Z amirouche: sqlite is 0.2 seconds fast? 2021-03-11T07:43:05Z wasamasa: yes 2021-03-11T07:43:46Z amirouche: I am very surprised, do you use memory backend? 2021-03-11T07:43:59Z wasamasa: it's a regular on disk file 2021-03-11T07:44:19Z amirouche: ok, and the joins happens in inside sqlite? 2021-03-11T07:44:24Z wasamasa: yup 2021-03-11T07:45:13Z amirouche: IIRC the task is give a entities associcated with tags, find the entities that match a couple of tags? 2021-03-11T07:45:29Z wasamasa: yes 2021-03-11T07:46:52Z amirouche: since the joins happen inside sqlite, it is the best timing you can get without doing everything with C. 2021-03-11T07:47:00Z wasamasa: for example I do a query searching for mushrooms that have a flat or convex cap shape, a bare or not available stipe and are saprotrophic 2021-03-11T07:47:21Z wasamasa: I've considered to write some more code to compare against neo4j 2021-03-11T07:47:29Z amirouche: is that a single SQL query? 2021-03-11T07:47:38Z wasamasa: it's a complicated SQL query 2021-03-11T07:48:41Z amirouche: in any case it is much faster with sqlite, but as soon as you need to make the query more dynamic ie. based on user input, it will slow down. 2021-03-11T07:49:03Z wasamasa: dunno about that, I bet I can speed it up some more 2021-03-11T07:49:28Z wasamasa: ideally the queries would run in <0.1s 2021-03-11T07:50:10Z wasamasa: my tests are flawed anyway, they measure the time of opening the database, querying it and closing it 2021-03-11T07:50:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:53:33Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:53:40Z amirouche: wasamasa: how big is the database file? 2021-03-11T07:53:58Z amirouche: IIRC lmdb mmap the whole database. 2021-03-11T07:54:07Z wasamasa: https://depp.brause.cc/brause.cc/wald/ 2021-03-11T07:54:46Z wasamasa: 240k 2021-03-11T07:54:52Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:55:06Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:55:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:55:33Z wasamasa: db.sqlite is 240k, db.lmdb is 1.72m 2021-03-11T07:56:06Z amirouche: it is very strange that json is _that_ slow, I mean does the code scan the whole dataset multiple time? 2021-03-11T07:56:44Z wasamasa: I've linked the code, take a look yourself :P 2021-03-11T07:56:50Z amirouche: I will look at the code prolly tonight, I must work :| 2021-03-11T07:57:45Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T07:58:35Z ArneBab quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-11T07:58:40Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-03-11T07:59:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T07:59:38Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T07:59:41Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:59:42Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-03-11T07:59:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:59:49Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-11T07:59:54Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:01:18Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T08:01:32Z GZJ0X_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:01:57Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:05:03Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T08:06:39Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:07:52Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:09:01Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T08:10:31Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:13:54Z evdubs_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:15:06Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2Sqp 2021-03-11T08:15:29Z wasamasa: even pure json isn't that bad 2021-03-11T08:16:29Z evdubs quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-11T08:19:33Z amirouche nods 2021-03-11T08:21:22Z amirouche: (I do not want to throw away srfi-167/168, I am more trying to figure if there is enough / too much things to change that would require another srfi) 2021-03-11T08:22:35Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:25:55Z friscosam quit (Quit: re-re-re-re-boot) 2021-03-11T08:41:10Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:45:24Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-11T08:49:30Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2Sqt 2021-03-11T08:51:02Z wasamasa: I think I can live with 4ms 2021-03-11T08:56:52Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:02:50Z wasamasa: looking at the profiler output for nstore, it seems that most of the inefficiencies are in the SRFIs it depends on 2021-03-11T09:07:51Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:08:57Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:09:19Z xandkar1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:09:54Z friscosam joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:10:10Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:19:38Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:21:38Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:22:07Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T09:22:16Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:25:53Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:31:07Z buhman quit 2021-03-11T09:31:29Z buhman joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:32:24Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:34:20Z dpk: jcowan: it was my understanding that until R5RS, the Scheme specs were made by unanimous decision of a small committee, then R6RS changed that to be the majority vote of a small committee, and R7RS (Large) changed that to be the majority vote of anyone who takes an interest? 2021-03-11T09:34:45Z montxero joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:35:27Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:38:40Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:41:10Z JokerAscensionEx joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:41:49Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:44:22Z dpk: jcowan: i have noted the other points 2021-03-11T09:51:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T09:55:02Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T09:56:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T10:00:23Z M7x[m]1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:02:56Z _apg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T10:04:45Z jobol: (number? +nan.0) 2021-03-11T10:07:43Z snan: #t 2021-03-11T10:08:35Z snan: (number? snan) 2021-03-11T10:08:36Z snan: #f 2021-03-11T10:10:27Z jobol: that is funny. I understand why (number? +nan.0) should be true from the software logic but at the same time it tells that "not a number" is a number 2021-03-11T10:10:42Z jobol: who defines snan? 2021-03-11T10:10:54Z snan: (define snan 'awesome) 2021-03-11T10:11:37Z snan: Maybe we can think of +nan.0 as "not an ordinary number" 2021-03-11T10:11:43Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T10:11:48Z wasamasa: I bet it's some IEEE thing 2021-03-11T10:11:50Z snan: Unlike me who is your basic ordinary everyday awesome 2021-03-11T10:11:58Z ecraven: r7rs, page 35: The numbers +inf.0, -inf.0, and +nan.0 are real but not rational. 2021-03-11T10:12:32Z snan: OK, so I guess they are sorta like me then 2021-03-11T10:17:21Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:17:46Z xandkar1 quit (Quit: xandkar1) 2021-03-11T10:19:02Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:21:00Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-11T10:22:32Z sz0 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:22:42Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:25:12Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:26:13Z sz0 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:26:24Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:29:54Z sz0 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:30:05Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:31:39Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:31:41Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T10:33:35Z sz0 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:33:46Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:34:43Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T10:52:29Z massimo_zaniboni is now known as mzan 2021-03-11T10:53:07Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:53:08Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T10:54:38Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T10:55:53Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T11:17:08Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T11:26:00Z lloda` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1.92)) 2021-03-11T11:26:17Z lloda joined #scheme 2021-03-11T11:26:26Z amirouche1: re real but no rational x) 2021-03-11T11:27:07Z amirouche1: how can +nan.0 be produced? 2021-03-11T11:27:10Z amirouche1: using scheme code 2021-03-11T11:27:18Z amirouche1: (/ 1 0) is an error 2021-03-11T11:27:28Z ecraven: not sure whether there is a portable way 2021-03-11T11:30:03Z fizzie: 1/0 in "standard" floating-point math would be an +inf.0 anyway, you'd need 0/0 for a NaN. 2021-03-11T11:30:52Z fizzie: (Don't know about portable ways either. On Chicken, (/ 0.0 0.0) is +nan.0.) 2021-03-11T11:31:53Z ecraven: that works on chez too 2021-03-11T11:32:06Z ecraven: on mit, it is -nan.0 ;) 2021-03-11T11:37:28Z fizzie: The best NaN thing is of course the fact that (= +nan.0 +nan.0) => #f, so sometimes (= x x) is false too. 2021-03-11T11:42:46Z ecraven: well, (= +nan.0 +nan.0) is also #f, so that's ok, isn't it? 2021-03-11T11:43:05Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-11T11:43:08Z ecraven: ah, sorry, misread that as (= -nan.0 +nan.0), my fault 2021-03-11T11:43:54Z polezaivsani quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T11:46:10Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-11T11:52:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T11:56:52Z amirouche1: I saw a tweet about bignum support in js and how it relates to json that does not specify max integers (neither does srfi-180..) 2021-03-11T11:57:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T11:58:20Z amirouche1: https://mobile.twitter.com/KenHatesSoftwar/status/1366560384824479745 2021-03-11T11:58:31Z amirouche1: there is also the question what happens when parsing a bignum 2021-03-11T12:00:31Z amirouche1: I just test with chrome: JSON.parse("999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999") + 4 2021-03-11T12:00:33Z amirouche1: 1e+48 2021-03-11T12:01:19Z amirouche1: so there is no number tower in js, you need to cast the number to bignum before doing ops: 5n + 5 2021-03-11T12:01:21Z amirouche1: VM292:1 Uncaught TypeError: Cannot mix BigInt and other types, use explicit conversions 2021-03-11T12:02:13Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T12:02:14Z amirouche1: s/number tower/numeric tower/ 2021-03-11T12:07:02Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-11T12:10:45Z frost-lab35 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T12:12:14Z amirouche1: in fact, I have three pre-srfis (http-parser1.1, hyperserver, and webui) I prefer to be prudent about the content of those, but it seems odd that I am the only to create "scheme user srfi". 2021-03-11T12:13:07Z amirouche1: I mean unlike most srfi, they are not essential datastructure or improvement to the core language, instead they re-use what already exist. 2021-03-11T12:13:36Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T12:19:43Z wasamasa: well, you've heard my opinion on these 2021-03-11T12:19:46Z wasamasa: put them on snow 2021-03-11T12:20:04Z wasamasa: break APIs all the time 2021-03-11T12:21:26Z dpk: agreed 2021-03-11T12:22:04Z dpk: SRFIs are for core language pieces; libraries you may wish to publish are another thing 2021-03-11T12:22:16Z wasamasa: I've briefly looked into snow and gave up when I couldn't figure out which packages work on CHICKEN 2021-03-11T12:22:43Z wasamasa: but maybe I'll use the chance to get properly into chibi 2021-03-11T12:23:55Z dpk: chibi is okay, but its error reporting is truly maddening 2021-03-11T12:24:12Z wasamasa: I wonder which implementation is the worst in that aspect 2021-03-11T12:24:25Z wasamasa: I occasionally read guile rants on the topic 2021-03-11T12:26:34Z dpk: amirouche1: i made a graph, btw, of the absurd situation i'm in for the language pieces and libraries that i'd need for my (simple!) project https://wiki.dpk.io/scheme.html (graph at the bottom of the page, prose describes each piece) 2021-03-11T12:27:39Z snan: wasamasa: guile probably has even stalin beat 2021-03-11T12:29:19Z wasamasa: dpk: I've been in a similar situation trying to get srfi-168 working, ended up porting 7 srfis and hacking on optimized versions of them 2021-03-11T12:29:52Z wasamasa: dpk: I'd argue against portability if you want to get something working 2021-03-11T12:30:00Z dpk: yeah, i came to that conclusion myself 2021-03-11T12:31:01Z amirouche1: + chibi error reporting 2021-03-11T12:31:25Z amirouche1: snan: what is stalin beat 2021-03-11T12:31:51Z amirouche1: +1 against portability if you want to ship 2021-03-11T12:31:54Z snan: Guile's error-reporting is maybe even more incomprehensible than the error reporting of Stalin 2021-03-11T12:32:01Z dpk: i decided to use Python to ship ;-) 2021-03-11T12:32:17Z snan: What, with like pip and venvs? 2021-03-11T12:32:30Z dpk: yes 2021-03-11T12:32:33Z amirouche1: re error reporting: that is why I use pk for any scheme I use 2021-03-11T12:33:04Z wasamasa: looking at the graph, almost everything is covered with CHICKEN 2021-03-11T12:33:07Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T12:33:11Z amirouche1: (define (pk . args (write args) (car (reverse arsg))) 2021-03-11T12:33:13Z wasamasa: you'd need to port a fcgi and redis egg from C4 to C5 2021-03-11T12:33:54Z amirouche1: for the sake of completness guile also as all you need. 2021-03-11T12:34:05Z wasamasa: I'd expect racket to fare similarly 2021-03-11T12:34:35Z wasamasa: the only novel thing is the lack of a webserver abstraction 2021-03-11T12:34:50Z dpk: well, i'm happy to do that myself, in theory 2021-03-11T12:36:04Z amirouche1: that is what I said, until I shipped two guile apps and zero r7rs app :) 2021-03-11T12:36:04Z dpk: see https://gitlab.com/dpk/wibble/-/blob/master/swag.md 2021-03-11T12:37:24Z wasamasa: I take it you've also looked at clojure's ring 2021-03-11T12:37:32Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-11T12:37:46Z amirouche1: (what I said above is half wrong, I shipped one or two small r7rs apps0 2021-03-11T12:38:05Z dpk: no, i wasn't aware of that. i'll take a look, thanks 2021-03-11T12:38:23Z wasamasa: because they rely heavily on middleware 2021-03-11T12:38:44Z amirouche1: now that I think again about hyperserver, that is an edge and rare case but hyperserver does not support websockets. 2021-03-11T12:38:46Z wasamasa: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/issues/393 2021-03-11T12:39:02Z amirouche1: john to the rescue! 2021-03-11T12:39:38Z wasamasa: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/wiki 2021-03-11T12:40:03Z dpk: websockets are a different protocol to http. if you want to use both on the same port, the right thing to do imo is to put a server in front of them that understands both and can proxy to different backends depending which is requested 2021-03-11T12:40:16Z dpk: but it's also legit to e.g. run websocket on a different port or hostname entirely 2021-03-11T12:41:22Z dpk: (WebSocket is not protected by the same-origin policy) 2021-03-11T12:44:02Z amirouche1: I disagree, IME it is much easier from the user perspective to handle both websocket and http in the same process. 2021-03-11T12:44:50Z amirouche1: it used to be required / preferable to have two kind of process before greenthread and async webservers. 2021-03-11T12:46:36Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-11T12:46:45Z dpk: well, that's another thing, Scheme doesn't have async I/O at all. (maybe some implementations do, but afaik no SRFI even defines an interface to select(2) or poll(2) which you could use to build a multiplexed async I/O loop, nor versions of read and write procedures that are guaranteed not to block, etc …) 2021-03-11T12:47:02Z amirouche1: there is various things that requires to be ironed out like "back pressure" but from dev point of view, it is simpler. 2021-03-11T12:47:44Z amirouche1: there is not epoll kqueue srfi but there is Scheme implementation that have async sockets. 2021-03-11T12:48:02Z snan: dpk: can nginx understand both? 2021-03-11T12:48:03Z amirouche1: async socket that appear sync.. like python async/await 2021-03-11T12:48:30Z dpk: i've never used nginx but i'm going to guess the answer is probably yes 2021-03-11T12:48:34Z amirouche1: snan: ws is an http connect that is upgraded where the request body is "infinite" 2021-03-11T12:49:02Z amirouche1: so yes. 2021-03-11T12:49:14Z amirouche1: in the case of nginx yes. 2021-03-11T12:49:23Z snan: /me definitively needed that "so yes." clarification 🧕🐞 2021-03-11T12:49:32Z amirouche1: in the case of apache with one process or thread per http connection: yes but.. 2021-03-11T12:49:39Z dpk: alternatively seen (and officially so), it's a separate protocol with a handshake that merely masquerades as an HTTP request 2021-03-11T12:49:47Z amirouche1: yes 2021-03-11T12:49:48Z snan also remember to not put spaces in front of IRC actions in the future 2021-03-11T12:53:12Z dpk: i'm not bothered about async really, though — i see it, probably unfairly, as trendy nonsense that nobody will want to bother with any more in a few years (except in JS, which has been async since day 1), because synchronous I/O is easier, even if it may be less efficient (which i don't honestly believe it is in any substantial way), and computer time is cheaper than person time, especially when that person is paid a Silicon Valley wage 2021-03-11T12:53:49Z hugh_marera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T12:54:18Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-11T12:55:55Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T12:57:03Z snan: Peeps are gonna love async on the cinder 2021-03-11T12:57:10Z amirouche1: There was project I recommend to move to async websocket, they prefered to use sync WSGI, when they moved to AWS it failed in various ways (with the same budget) 2021-03-11T12:59:44Z amirouche1: obv increasing the budget would solve the problem. 2021-03-11T13:00:07Z amirouche1: (also rewriting with async ws too) 2021-03-11T13:00:15Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:00:16Z amirouche1: (that would reduce the budget) 2021-03-11T13:00:47Z amirouche1: (and in the case of aws, the hardware budget is a lot compared to my salary) 2021-03-11T13:01:14Z amirouche1: I guess it depends. 2021-03-11T13:01:52Z dpk: sure, but it would cost more to pay you to optimize the app so your employer doesn't need 10 extra servers to handle their workload, than to just get the 10 extra servers 2021-03-11T13:02:05Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T13:02:11Z amirouche1: ymmv :) 2021-03-11T13:02:27Z GZJ0X_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:02:59Z dpk: 10 dedicated servers are, what, €1000/year? most programmers in Europe and North America cost their employers at least double that in a month 2021-03-11T13:03:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:03:52Z frost-lab35 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-11T13:05:06Z davl_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:05:20Z taw10_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:05:24Z crypto_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:06:19Z fadein_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:07:05Z jcowan: The great thing about Scheme is that all procedures are async/await, yes, every tiny lambda included, because call/cc. 2021-03-11T13:07:35Z davl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:35Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:36Z taw10 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z Ekho quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:37Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:38Z fadein quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:07:39Z davl_ is now known as davl 2021-03-11T13:07:57Z crypto_ is now known as z0d 2021-03-11T13:08:05Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:10:00Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:10:00Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:11:05Z snits joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:11:16Z jcowan: A notable example is the columnar format combinator in SRFI 166, which cleverly exploits call/cc so that the combinators for the columns are invoked one line of output at a time, but they don't know it. 2021-03-11T13:12:29Z snan: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-166/srfi-166.html#Columnar-Formatting 2021-03-11T13:12:34Z dpk: but call/cc has composability problems, aiui (i've never used it much in practice) 2021-03-11T13:12:36Z snan: How can there be more than one hundred srfi 2021-03-11T13:12:43Z dpk: there are more than 200 now! 2021-03-11T13:13:09Z dpk: but SRFIs have been around since the nineties, so eventually it has to get there 2021-03-11T13:13:18Z dpk: disappointing, if anything, that we aren't in the thousands by now ;-) 2021-03-11T13:13:41Z snan: They should retire some less than great SRFIs 2021-03-11T13:14:05Z dpk: (i've heard it described as "you can use call/cc to implement any control structure, but not any two control structures") 2021-03-11T13:15:05Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:15:51Z Ekho joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:18:46Z xlei quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-03-11T13:22:58Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T13:23:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:25:02Z xlei joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:25:21Z taw10_ is now known as taw10 2021-03-11T13:25:38Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:27:02Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:32:28Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T13:35:37Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T13:40:43Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:42:08Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T13:42:25Z xlei quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2021-03-11T13:42:27Z jcowan laughs. Nice line, dpk 2021-03-11T13:42:42Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:45:34Z iv4nshm4k0v holds his breath in anticipation of whatever language construct to get standardized to replace call/cc 2021-03-11T13:45:38Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T13:46:11Z xlei joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:46:23Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:47:53Z snan: let/cc ♥ 2021-03-11T13:50:24Z jcowan: There are two independent axes: delimited continuations and one-shot continuations. The first adds power; the second reduces power but adds efficiency. 2021-03-11T13:50:58Z jcowan: Unfortunately there are four ways to do delimited continuations, and seemingly no consensus on the Right Thing. 2021-03-11T13:51:12Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T13:51:32Z jcowan: (that is, four interfaces, not just four implementation strategies) 2021-03-11T13:51:43Z jcowan should reread Oleg on the subject 2021-03-11T13:53:08Z jcowan: Racket's API is meant for inward portability: it uses all the random names used by the various designers of delimited-continuation APIs, so your non-Racket code has a chance to work correctly, but trying to remember which name does what is kinda hopeless. 2021-03-11T13:53:17Z jcowan reads Oleg 2021-03-11T13:53:20Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:53:46Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-11T13:53:49Z iv4nshm4k0v: jcowan: I've guessed that there's not much in the agreement department; hence my semi-sarcasm. 2021-03-11T13:55:14Z jcowan: fortunately, import renaming undermines "We have to call it X!" arguments 2021-03-11T13:55:38Z jcowan: also I have written enough SRFIs now for a substantial amount of street-cred capital. 2021-03-11T13:57:01Z iv4nshm4k0v loves import renaming; regardless of the language 2021-03-11T13:57:41Z iv4nshm4k0v: jcowan: Well, I'd be surprised to learn you /do not/ have a plan. 2021-03-11T13:58:15Z jcowan: That's what makes me Benevolent Chief Cook and Bottle-washer 2021-03-11T13:58:58Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-11T14:00:51Z jcowan: dpk: I am reasonably sure that the R6 committee acted by internal consensus, not by voting. However, it was a much smaller committee than the ones that did R2 through R5. 2021-03-11T14:06:05Z snan: I hope people can stop the prefix:name-everything\convention and just have normal, beautiful, looks as if they were a part of the program all along type names 2021-03-11T14:06:15Z snan: If renaming can prevent namespace clashes 2021-03-11T14:08:21Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T14:13:39Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-11T14:13:52Z dpk: jcowan: if four interfaces, are they really anything more than four ways of spelling the same thing? 2021-03-11T14:14:29Z jcowan: Yes. They have to do with whether the point of {call, return} is {inside, outside} the continuation. I think. 2021-03-11T14:26:07Z montxero quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T14:26:25Z montxero joined #scheme 2021-03-11T14:27:56Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-11T14:29:33Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-11T14:31:30Z dpk: wasamasa: thanks for the pointer to the Ring 2.0 spec draft. it confirms, at least, that i'm not completely nuts for thinking that Rack/WSGI's distinction between SCRIPT_NAME and PATH_INFO (i think inherited from CGI) is cruft that can be done away with 2021-03-11T14:33:11Z wasamasa: you're welcome 2021-03-11T14:34:56Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-11T14:35:26Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T14:42:33Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T14:52:46Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T14:53:27Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T14:55:00Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T14:57:01Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T14:58:04Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-11T15:01:02Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-11T15:06:18Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T15:06:53Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T15:13:53Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T15:14:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T15:17:00Z supercoven_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T15:17:16Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-11T15:19:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T15:24:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T15:48:24Z ggoes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T15:49:08Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:00:17Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T16:00:30Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:04:47Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T16:10:51Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T16:11:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:11:44Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:12:04Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-11T16:12:28Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T16:12:43Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:17:23Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T16:17:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:17:58Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T16:18:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:19:50Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T16:23:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T16:29:50Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:30:55Z dpk: is it good Scheme style to define a procedure or an interface which can return a varying number of values? 2021-03-11T16:31:25Z civodul: dpk: i'd say it's bad style :-) 2021-03-11T16:31:48Z civodul: because that makes it harder to analyze the code 2021-03-11T16:32:05Z aeth: dpk: just pull a CL and return #f if the value isn't currently useful 2021-03-11T16:32:13Z aeth: (ok, CL returns NIL, but same thing in this context) 2021-03-11T16:32:50Z snan: dpk: I don't mind it 2021-03-11T16:32:54Z aeth: Then it always returns the same number of values, and you just check with if 2021-03-11T16:33:02Z snan: Works well with compose and the various ->> stuff 2021-03-11T16:34:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T16:34:58Z snan: So it depends if the values are of same kind (sprites, words, filenames whatever) you just don't know how many, then multiple values are fine 2021-03-11T16:35:01Z dpk: it seems to me that the core of any objection to it would be that Scheme doesn't have good procedures for receiving varying numbers of values from a procedure call, but one could easily define some. (i think this is what civodul means by 'it makes it harder to analyse the code') 2021-03-11T16:35:20Z snan: Compose is a good way 2021-03-11T16:35:29Z snan: As is the various clojurian stuff 2021-03-11T16:35:58Z dpk: Scheme's multiple return values, though, are meant to make procedure call and procedure return semantically equivalent. we can have procedures that take varying numbers of values when called, why not procedures that return varying numbers of values? 2021-03-11T16:36:03Z snan: If the values are all set, and different, except some are not always there, then returning #f is better 2021-03-11T16:37:06Z dpk: snan: i would probably define a case-receive; i think it's probably rather trivial to do in terms of case-lambda and call-with-values 2021-03-11T16:38:19Z dpk: 'trivial', i mean, for someone better at syntax-rules than i am 🙈 2021-03-11T16:38:21Z snan: (compose variadic-receiver variadic-returner) 2021-03-11T16:40:12Z snan: Or this kinda stuff: http://api.call-cc.org/5/doc/clojurian/-%3E%2A 2021-03-11T16:54:48Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:57:20Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-11T16:59:25Z gwatt: dpk: like this: https://dpaste.com/D7UHRJBEV ? 2021-03-11T17:01:11Z dpk: gwatt: yes! exactly! thanks! 2021-03-11T17:01:36Z gwatt: Aaaand, I of course see that I left off returning the case-lambda function form the letrec in the named version... 2021-03-11T17:02:17Z dpk: oh, i didn't see the named version at first. extra nifty! 2021-03-11T17:04:51Z salvipeter[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:06:36Z Zipheir: Why not a list? 2021-03-11T17:07:06Z snan: There is something aesthetically appealing with multiple values in Scheme 2021-03-11T17:07:16Z Zipheir: Inherently variable-length, and far easier to pattern-match than some number of values. 2021-03-11T17:07:37Z snan: It's difficulter to pattern match in some sense too 2021-03-11T17:07:53Z snan: I mean just compose it to a match-lambda and you're golden 2021-03-11T17:08:19Z Zipheir: Hmm. 2021-03-11T17:08:19Z salvipeter[m] is now known as sunwukong 2021-03-11T17:08:38Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:08:39Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T17:08:53Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:08:54Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T17:09:08Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:09:09Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T17:09:23Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:09:24Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-03-11T17:09:41Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:10:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:11:14Z snan: I mean, if I need to whip out receive or call-with-values I'm usually not a happy camper but if I'm threading a bunch of functions together with compose or the clojurian style then that's just great 2021-03-11T17:11:44Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:11:44Z supercoven_ quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-11T17:11:56Z Zipheir: If multiple values do seem like the Right Thing, and if there's such a thing as the procedure failing, I'd suggest SRFI 189 maybes, which are multi-value. 2021-03-11T17:13:00Z amirouche1: snan: my favorite scheme line is (apply values args) 2021-03-11T17:13:01Z Zipheir: snan: Yeah, I think we agree about call-with-values. Programming with multiple values is sort of clumsy. 2021-03-11T17:13:08Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:13:30Z Zipheir: Also: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-210/ 2021-03-11T17:13:42Z dpk: Zipheir: but as snan and i both said, that's mainly because Scheme makes it clumsy by only providing fairly low-level mechanisms to receive multiple values 2021-03-11T17:14:12Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:14:33Z dpk: oh, that looks interesting (at the most cursory of glances) 2021-03-11T17:14:46Z Zipheir: dpk: That's sort of the way things go with (core) Scheme. 2021-03-11T17:15:04Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:15:05Z Zipheir: let-values and friends are pretty good, IMO. 2021-03-11T17:16:03Z dpk: i hated multiple values for years until let-values came along (in R7RS, as far as i knew), though apparently SRFI 11 defined it first way back when 2021-03-11T17:16:47Z Zipheir: Agreed. 2021-03-11T17:16:52Z snan: Yeah, I don't think it's clumsy at all, it's just that call-with-values is because of the thunking 2021-03-11T17:17:01Z snan: Even receive is fine 2021-03-11T17:17:12Z snan: I usually don't need receive 2021-03-11T17:17:54Z Zipheir: MNW was quite insistent that SRFI 189 (maybe/either) fully accomodate multiple values, and it turned out to be an important development. 2021-03-11T17:17:58Z amirouche1: is the following valid with receive: (receive (proc) args (do-something-with args)) 2021-03-11T17:18:03Z Zenton joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:19:08Z Zipheir: Are the args of receive the formals of a lambda? 2021-03-11T17:19:28Z Zipheir: Yes. 2021-03-11T17:19:32Z Zipheir: amirouche1: ^ 2021-03-11T17:20:28Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T17:20:42Z amirouche1: then I have no reason to tu call-with-values. BTW Dybvig recommended another form instead of call-with-values I do not recall the name. 2021-03-11T17:21:05Z amirouche1: And I do not remember what paper. 2021-03-11T17:21:19Z Zipheir: I think it was added to SRFI 210. 2021-03-11T17:21:29Z Zipheir: with-values ? 2021-03-11T17:22:02Z Zipheir: (with-values (values 4 5) (lambda (a b) b)) ; => 5 2021-03-11T17:22:47Z amirouche1: that looks like it.. 2021-03-11T17:23:32Z amirouche1: I sense the Dybvig lambda style, that is exactly like receive but with an explicit lambda, which is not bad :) 2021-03-11T17:23:56Z Zipheir: Yes. It's in 210. 2021-03-11T17:24:49Z snan: Or just ((compose (lambda (a b) b) values) 4 5) 2021-03-11T17:25:11Z snan: ⇒ 5 2021-03-11T17:25:19Z fadein_ is now known as fadein 2021-03-11T17:25:53Z snan: The entire chain can be variadic 2021-03-11T17:26:17Z gwatt: A while back I - for fun - wrote a let+ macro, which behaved like letrec*, but also allowed you to destructure lists, vectors, and values. 2021-03-11T17:26:39Z snan: OK, compose isn't in the R5RS, I see 2021-03-11T17:26:43Z snan: It's implementation specific 2021-03-11T17:26:45Z snan: But, I love it 2021-03-11T17:26:47Z Zipheir: snan: SRFI 210, again. 2021-03-11T17:27:10Z amirouche1: re the entire chain: yes, but that is extra cpu time where the common case is a single returned value. IIRC at Chez as an optimization fo single return value. 2021-03-11T17:27:37Z amirouche1: I might be way out of my league. 2021-03-11T17:27:53Z gwatt: You could use it like: (let+ ([a 1] [(list b c) '(2 3)] [(vector d e) '#(4 5)] [(values f g) (values 6 7)]) (+ a b c d e f g)) 2021-03-11T17:28:09Z Zipheir: snan: 210 has both compose-left and compose-right, but no "compose", which is a bit backwards-incompatible. 2021-03-11T17:28:10Z snan: Chicken has o where the entire chain is mono-adic (is this what monadic means?) but that includes the first/right-most one unfortunately 2021-03-11T17:28:18Z snan: Compose predated 210 2021-03-11T17:28:23Z snan: In Chicken 2021-03-11T17:28:28Z Zipheir: snan: Yeah, that's what I mean. 2021-03-11T17:30:04Z Zipheir: compose-right is the (more) traditional right-to-left compose. 2021-03-11T17:30:22Z snan: This is the sort of stuff I'd wanna define if it didn't exist. So I don't have to assign intermediate names to the vals, just thread the procs together 2021-03-11T17:31:19Z Zipheir: Yes. This is one thing I like about ML-family languages: func = fa . fb . fc 2021-03-11T17:31:40Z dpk: wait, compose is traditionally right-to-left in Scheme? 2021-03-11T17:31:43Z Zipheir: (Not that "point-free style" can't be totally incomprehensible.) 2021-03-11T17:31:49Z snan: dpk: yes 2021-03-11T17:31:55Z dpk: was there a SRFI which defined that before 210? 2021-03-11T17:32:09Z dpk: (would be handy perhaps to have a symbol index to all SRFIs) 2021-03-11T17:32:15Z snan: I've been using compose that way since I was a baby basically 2021-03-11T17:32:17Z Zipheir: Oh, I'm not sure if all Schemes agree on that. I was just thinking of mathematical ∘. 2021-03-11T17:32:52Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:33:15Z snan: Since chicken did it that way. This SRFI is new 2021-03-11T17:33:20Z snan: I can't believe it got accepted 2021-03-11T17:33:28Z snan: No offence to the guy if he is in here 2021-03-11T17:33:59Z Zipheir: It's compatible with CHICKEN. It just adds another name for compose. 2021-03-11T17:34:12Z snan: Just that it should've been called compose 2021-03-11T17:34:12Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:34:28Z Zipheir: I think I suggested that, but it was not picked up. 2021-03-11T17:34:40Z dpk: SRFIs are only 'rejected' if they are withdrawn by their authors or fail to follow the conventions of a SFRI 2021-03-11T17:34:58Z Zipheir: snan: https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-210/msg/15889478/ 2021-03-11T17:35:13Z snan: Why CS pees love their long names and hackers love the short names 2021-03-11T17:35:13Z dpk: i don't think the SRFI editor has ever had to reject a SRFI (at least not after already publishing the first draft) 2021-03-11T17:35:55Z dpk: iirc jcowan had a function combinator pre-SRFI which defined `compose` as you expect it 2021-03-11T17:36:15Z Zipheir: In any case, SRFIs are supposed to be rejected on form/completeness (*not* content) grounds. 2021-03-11T17:36:43Z snan: I'm no longer obligated to memorize every SRFI 2021-03-11T17:36:56Z snan: They're basically CPAN 2021-03-11T17:37:11Z Zipheir: Also, some are superseded, some barely implemented. 2021-03-11T17:38:04Z dpk: oh, i misremembered, no `compose` https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/CombinatorsCowan.md 2021-03-11T17:38:24Z Zipheir: jcowan suggested compose<< and compose>>. 2021-03-11T17:38:35Z dpk: for 210? 2021-03-11T17:38:58Z Zipheir: Yes. 2021-03-11T17:39:28Z dpk: i prefer compose-left and -right, as they match (e.g.) fold-right, though by analogy to fold, i agree that one should have been picked to have just the name compose 2021-03-11T17:39:54Z Zipheir: Hah, I wish Olin had gone with fold-left. But I agree about compose. 2021-03-11T17:39:58Z snan: So my dream is that people could fall into line with two things re naming. One: quit it with the ASCII art in names. Just alpha and hyphens. Two: shorter names please. 2021-03-11T17:40:14Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:40:23Z snan: compose and compose-left. Nice 2021-03-11T17:40:53Z snan: Not sure what the use case is for a compose left. I guess when you apply it to an LTR lis 2021-03-11T17:41:01Z Zipheir: I had a somewhat half-baked idea to drop all of the TYPE- prefixes from Scheme names and handle all of that with import renaming. 2021-03-11T17:41:19Z Zipheir: e.g. vector-map is just `map', exported by (scheme vector) or whatever. 2021-03-11T17:41:40Z snan: Does Chicken have import renaming already? 2021-03-11T17:41:51Z Zipheir: Yes. It's export renaming they lack. 2021-03-11T17:42:12Z snan: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/filepath so I can import these without the prefixes somehow? 2021-03-11T17:43:16Z snan: http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Modules#rename RTFM, self 2021-03-11T17:43:16Z Zipheir: snan: Yeah. It's quite a bit of typing. 2021-03-11T17:43:45Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:43:51Z Zipheir: (import (rename IMPORT-SPEC (old1 new1 old2 new2 ...))) 2021-03-11T17:44:01Z snan: That's kind of unbeautiful 2021-03-11T17:44:05Z Zipheir: Indeed. 2021-03-11T17:44:27Z snan: (prefix IMPORT SYMBOL) so please don't pre-prefix 2021-03-11T17:44:28Z Zipheir: What you'd want is something like (import (strip PREFIX IMPORT-SPEC)) 2021-03-11T17:44:31Z snan: Since it's easier to add than remoe 2021-03-11T17:44:34Z snan: Yeah exactly 2021-03-11T17:44:41Z snan: Maybe that's doable 2021-03-11T17:45:03Z Zipheir: snan: That was my half-baked idea. Just export names like map, fold, etc. and rename them with import. 2021-03-11T17:45:15Z snan: I like that 2021-03-11T17:45:27Z Zipheir: But it was pointed out that, without type inference, it could get confusing. 2021-03-11T17:45:35Z snan: I mean, you don't deliberately have to go for the maximally punny names but you shouldn't have to go out of your way to avoid it eithetr 2021-03-11T17:46:03Z snan: Just normal names. "Names that look like they belong in the program" 2021-03-11T17:46:17Z snan: No : >> <> 🐞 2021-03-11T17:47:12Z snan: Heck I just fell off my chair 2021-03-11T17:47:16Z snan: I hurt myself pretty badly 2021-03-11T17:47:20Z snan: Or rather it fell over 2021-03-11T17:47:28Z Zipheir: Aww, snan. :( 2021-03-11T17:48:40Z snan: I had some kind of micro seizure probably 2021-03-11T17:48:57Z snan: That's fine 2021-03-11T17:49:30Z snan: I mean I love SRFI-42 but that's in spite of the : convention 2021-03-11T17:49:36Z snan: uh 2021-03-11T17:49:38Z snan: despite 2021-03-11T17:49:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T17:49:43Z snan: I forget the English word 2021-03-11T17:49:59Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-11T17:50:10Z dpk: either is correct 2021-03-11T17:50:15Z snan: Thank you dpk 2021-03-11T17:50:27Z dpk: trotz in German 2021-03-11T17:50:32Z snan: Yes! 2021-03-11T17:50:34Z snan: That's the word 2021-03-11T17:50:37Z snan: I was thinking of 2021-03-11T17:51:30Z snan: In SRFI-42 body is single-expression anyway so there's no need for the : 2021-03-11T17:54:25Z Zipheir: Then's there's the WCS pattern-matching forms, which use all kinds of sigils. 2021-03-11T17:54:53Z Zipheir: Not to mention the nests of quasiquotation symbols which you sometimes see in Scheme. 2021-03-11T17:55:12Z snan: I'd like quasiquotation and pretty lambda and single quote to be the only 2021-03-11T17:55:31Z snan: I really like quasiquotation. That's the most fun programming 2021-03-11T17:56:01Z snan: Elixir supposedly made quasiquotation cumbersome deliberately 2021-03-11T17:56:04Z dpk: (now imagining Scheme code written in German for some reason. definiere, sei, sei-rek, sei-werte, angebe, quasiangebe …) 2021-03-11T17:56:07Z snan: I don't know if I believe that 2021-03-11T17:56:08Z Zipheir: Pattern-matching and quasiquotation together are extremely expressive. 2021-03-11T17:57:01Z Zipheir: (That's the main reason why the micro-miniKanren implementation can be fit on an index card.) 2021-03-11T17:57:39Z snan: Kanren is an ambiguity resolver right? Or am I thinking of something else? 2021-03-11T17:57:42Z snan: It's a beautiful name 2021-03-11T17:59:34Z Zipheir: snan: It's a relational language à la Mercury embedded in Scheme. 2021-03-11T18:00:01Z Zipheir: snan: (Presented in The Reasoned Schemer, which is a book I love.) 2021-03-11T18:00:31Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T18:00:34Z snan: I ended up not liking A Little Java and The Little Typer but the Reason Schemer I've been curious about. I like prolog type stuff 2021-03-11T18:00:58Z Zipheir: It's my favorite of the Little books. 2021-03-11T18:02:03Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-11T18:02:05Z Wezl: reminds me of picolisp's pilog 2021-03-11T18:02:21Z Zipheir: The Oleg-number chapters can get very hairy, but they're fascinating. And yes, "Oleg number" is Dan Friedman's preferred name for their little-endian-binary notation. 2021-03-11T18:11:18Z Zipheir: The miniKanren entire implementation: https://github.com/TheReasonedSchemer2ndEd/CodeFromTheReasonedSchemer2ndEd/blob/master/trs2-impl.scm 2021-03-11T18:11:45Z snan: Honey that's still hundreds of lines 2021-03-11T18:11:53Z snan: You built up like some five line thing 2021-03-11T18:12:06Z snan: I was like this is gonna be the most compact relational DSL ever 2021-03-11T18:12:24Z Wezl: looking at miniKanren I knew I'd seen it before ... 2021-03-11T18:12:27Z Zipheir: You can pair it down to that. That includes a bunch of additional stuff. 2021-03-11T18:12:32Z snan: OK good 2021-03-11T18:12:55Z Zipheir: This has the index card version http://webyrd.net/scheme-2013/papers/HemannMuKanren2013.pdf 2021-03-11T18:13:31Z snan: Page 8 2021-03-11T18:13:45Z snan: Oh, I think I was picturing a business card not an index card 2021-03-11T18:13:56Z snan: I use A7 index cards normally for #boatmode 2021-03-11T18:14:01Z snan: Uh, not the IRC channel boatmode 2021-03-11T18:14:10Z snan: Something else that has a # character 2021-03-11T18:14:53Z zdravko61 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T18:14:56Z snan: Thank you 2021-03-11T18:14:58Z Zipheir: "We argue that deeply buried within that 265-line miniKanren implementation is a small, beautiful relational programming language seeking to get out." 2021-03-11T18:15:11Z snan: Kanren is gonna become awesome once it gets there 2021-03-11T18:15:24Z zdravko61 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T18:16:17Z Zipheir: foof added some extensions, I believe, which the CHICKEN implementation provides https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/mini-kanren 2021-03-11T18:16:54Z Zipheir: In any case, any relational language that works without cuts is a Good Thing, IMO. 2021-03-11T18:27:15Z snan: IRC is becoming fun again lately 2021-03-11T18:31:22Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T18:31:26Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-11T18:56:55Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-11T18:59:55Z pounce- is now known as pounce 2021-03-11T19:00:44Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T19:01:03Z sxmx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T19:01:23Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:02:26Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:03:18Z irstlovef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:08:09Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T19:11:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:14:56Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:15:07Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:15:44Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:15:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:16:55Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:19:17Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:30:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:33:17Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T19:33:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:40:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T19:44:08Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:45:14Z Wezl quit (Quit: I blame weechat) 2021-03-11T19:45:45Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:45:56Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-11T19:48:40Z Wezl quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-11T19:51:17Z Wezl joined #scheme 2021-03-11T20:10:40Z Wezl quit (Quit: IRCNow and Forever!) 2021-03-11T20:10:48Z aquijoule_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T20:11:08Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-03-11T20:12:50Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-11T20:19:10Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-03-11T20:23:35Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-03-11T20:26:30Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-11T20:49:00Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-03-11T20:50:11Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T20:50:51Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T20:54:16Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T20:54:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T20:55:38Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-11T20:56:27Z jcowan: The main use of multiple values is to avoid reifying the situation where there are multiple results to return as a list or vector or what not. 2021-03-11T20:58:27Z jcowan: Quoth the Great Quux: "Ordinarily the result of calling a Lisp function is a single Lisp object. Sometimes, however, it is convenient for a function to compute several objects and return them. Common Lisp provides a mechanism for handling multiple values directly. This mechanism is cleaner and more efficient than the usual tricks involving returning a list of results or stashing results in global variables." 2021-03-11T20:58:32Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-11T21:00:57Z Zipheir: I wonder whether the "more efficient" observation has any accuracy these days. 2021-03-11T21:07:08Z gwatt: Depends on the scheme. 2021-03-11T21:08:28Z Zipheir: Pattern-matching also makes the list-return approach cleaner, e.g. (match (list-proc) ((val1 val2) ...)) 2021-03-11T21:08:49Z gwatt: Chez appears to not perform allocations for multiple values involving 4 or fewer arguments, at least on x86_64. Other schemes that use a list or vector or whatever to represent multiple values probably have no benefit 2021-03-11T21:08:51Z Zipheir: Yes, there's some (probably short-lived) garbage. 2021-03-11T21:11:00Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T21:11:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T21:11:55Z rstlovefi joined #scheme 2021-03-11T21:15:06Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:16:43Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:17:46Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-11T21:22:27Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-11T21:27:01Z montxero quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:32:18Z amirouche2 joined #scheme 2021-03-11T21:33:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T21:33:58Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-11T21:34:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-11T21:34:14Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:35:03Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:40:02Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-11T21:42:29Z dpk: certainly more efficient than a list, but i don't know about global variables 2021-03-11T21:44:17Z dpk: the ARM architecture, even in its 64-bit revision, still explicitly supports multiple return values in its standard calling convention (i guess it's harder for ISAs to *not* support multiple return values, but it's notable that in the documentation i read, all 8 (iirc) registers reserved for procedure call arguments were also noted as being for procedure call return values) 2021-03-11T21:45:22Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-11T21:46:09Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-03-11T21:47:53Z Zipheir: So I guess native-code Scheme compilers can have very efficient multiple-valued procedures. 2021-03-11T21:52:36Z aeth: Right 2021-03-11T21:53:12Z aeth: Multiple return values can let you turn a small list/vector/etc. into multiple return values and make a pure, nonconsing procedure out of it. 2021-03-11T21:53:29Z aeth: Although beyond 4 you're just kind of hoping. 2021-03-11T21:54:06Z aeth: Even if it does allocate, you at least keep the purity 2021-03-11T21:54:19Z dpk: yeah, i believe amd64 can't do more than 4 arguments in the registers; presumably the same applies for return values (definitely, if your compiler uses continuation-passing style) 2021-03-11T21:58:14Z aeth: I mean, it's a compiler, they can probably find a (slightly less efficient) way beyond 4. 2021-03-11T21:58:45Z Zipheir: OTOH, the compiler has to expect that the number of values returned might vary. 2021-03-11T21:59:56Z Zipheir: In Schemes with type annotations, hopefully an annotation like func : a b ... -> * * would suffice to indicate that func will always return two values. 2021-03-11T22:00:09Z dpk: well, for arguments, you put them on the stack when you have too many to fit in the registers. for return values … 2021-03-11T22:00:23Z _apg joined #scheme 2021-03-11T22:00:29Z Zipheir: Yeah. 2021-03-11T22:02:02Z Zipheir: It would 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multiple values over a list/vector/record, I guess. 2021-03-12T01:45:47Z lockywolf: (deal (var1 var2 var3) (multiple-value-function arg1 ...)) ? 2021-03-12T01:46:23Z Zipheir: deal? 2021-03-12T01:46:56Z lockywolf: where (deal) takes a list and puts every cad*r into var*. 2021-03-12T01:47:21Z lockywolf: nah, "deal" is a matlab word for it 2021-03-12T01:48:51Z lockywolf: ah, but you can't write (deal) in scheme easily, right? 2021-03-12T01:50:28Z Zipheir: I think it should be a fairly straightforward call-with-values macro. 2021-03-12T01:50:56Z Zipheir: Oh, elements of a list. Still, it should be doable. 2021-03-12T01:51:08Z Zipheir: I'd just match on the list. 2021-03-12T01:51:20Z lockywolf: yeah, that's what I thought of 2021-03-12T01:52:10Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T01:52:14Z lockywolf: but I don't think it is easy 2021-03-12T01:54:12Z lockywolf: you a certain dynamism in scope for this to work 2021-03-12T01:55:18Z Zipheir: Well, (multiple-value-function arg1 ...) would have to be evaluated, among other things. 2021-03-12T01:57:47Z lockywolf: I've also been thinking about the fact that scheme's variable scopes cannot intersect. 2021-03-12T01:58:13Z Zipheir: I'm distracted, so I'm not going to tackle that further at the moment. 2021-03-12T01:58:23Z lockywolf: don't bother 2021-03-12T01:58:33Z lockywolf: not that important 2021-03-12T02:10:45Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T02:11:12Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-12T02:25:00Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-12T02:29:45Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-12T02:39:31Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T02:43:21Z rickygee joined #scheme 2021-03-12T02:46:45Z raingloom_ joined #scheme 2021-03-12T02:48:04Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T02:48:32Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T03:11:43Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T03:17:03Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-03-12T03:25:14Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-12T03:34:58Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-12T03:38:39Z gwatt: in golang, you can put a mv-returning function directly into the calling arguments of another function since the coarity is known at compile time. 2021-03-12T03:47:06Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T03:57:02Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T04:02:36Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-12T04:08:23Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-12T04:10:50Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T04:13:01Z raingloom_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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*grumble* 2021-03-12T11:51:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T11:51:36Z dpk: or an open-file which returns an fd rather than a port, so i could store the fd from an opened file separately 2021-03-12T11:58:57Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-12T12:00:17Z marusich joined #scheme 2021-03-12T12:08:33Z sm2n_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T12:15:55Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T12:18:51Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-12T12:30:15Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-12T12:35:27Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-12T12:42:25Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T12:48:38Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-12T12:53:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T13:02:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T13:02:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T13:16:14Z parse quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T13:27:50Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-12T13:37:07Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T13:40:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-12T13:45:07Z edgar-rft is now known as world 2021-03-12T13:45:23Z world is now known as edgar-rft 2021-03-12T13:47:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T13:47:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T13:54:57Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T14:04:01Z dpk: hrrrm. why doesn't R7RS small define a bytevector=? 2021-03-12T14:06:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:06:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:08:37Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:11:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:11:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:12:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:12:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:13:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:13:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:15:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:15:32Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:16:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:16:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:17:21Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T14:18:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:18:31Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:19:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:38:51Z Wezl_ is now known as Wezl 2021-03-12T14:46:56Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-12T14:47:10Z draxoula joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:49:45Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T14:56:39Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:57:00Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T14:58:08Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-12T15:09:17Z fadein quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-12T15:23:18Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-12T15:23:47Z dpk: in any case, there's also an error in SRFI 207, which says that the (scheme bytevector) library contains bytevector=? 2021-03-12T15:24:22Z dpk: Chibi Scheme does define it, but it's not actually in the spec 2021-03-12T15:25:01Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T15:25:50Z dpk: ahh, (scheme bytevector) is in the tangerine edition. still, odd that it's not there in small 2021-03-12T15:28:24Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T15:40:34Z jcowan: dpk: Thanks for the report on SRFI 181 2021-03-12T15:41:39Z jcowan: There is no port->fd because if you get a raw fd, you may do something to it that messes up the port; you don't know how it's being used. 2021-03-12T15:41:56Z dpk frowns 2021-03-12T15:42:15Z dpk: since when is Scheme a language that tries to protect the programmer from their own stupidity? /s 2021-03-12T15:44:02Z jcowan: Not stupidity but ignorance. Many Schemes play games with fds because they do provide a way to expose them, and then they have to dup2 the fd and give you that. Even then, if there's buffering going on, reading or writing the fd may screw that up. Yu just don't know. 2021-03-12T15:45:10Z jcowan: Furthermore, it's not uncommon for Schemes to do async I/O and have a multiplexer using select/poll/epoll, even though Scheme only provides sync I/O. 2021-03-12T15:45:36Z iv4nshm4k0v: jcowan: dup2 ? I'd expect a plain (pseudocode) "return dup (fd);" here. 2021-03-12T15:45:50Z jcowan: Yes, dup not dup2. 2021-03-12T15:46:03Z jcowan: But then there is no guarantee that such a dup is actually done. 2021-03-12T15:46:57Z jcowan: Our take was that fds should only be used at the edge of the program, as the Rationale says. The process pre-SRFI provides ways to deal with them. 2021-03-12T15:47:20Z dpk: i assume/hope it will be specified that port-position and set-port-position! on a port opened by open-file or fd->port will do an lseek on the underlying fd? 2021-03-12T15:47:26Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T15:48:27Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T15:49:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-12T15:49:32Z jcowan: They might not if what you want is in the Scheme's buffer. Fseek makes no such guarantees, for example. 2021-03-12T15:50:36Z jcowan: Oh, actually it does if the last operation was fflush. 2021-03-12T15:52:34Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/ProcessesCowan.md 2021-03-12T15:53:19Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T15:53:48Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-12T15:54:08Z jcowan: Finally, in WG1 there were three factions about bytevectors: don't have them, provide the R6RS interface, or provide just "blobs" that you could allocate and get the length of, but with all operations on them deferred. 2021-03-12T15:54:20Z jcowan belonged to the Blob faction 2021-03-12T15:54:33Z gwatt: aren't fseek and fflush on FILE* objects, not int file descriptors? 2021-03-12T15:56:11Z jcowan: Yes. But by analogy with FILE* streams, Scheme ports should be synchronized with the underlying fd before passing the fd to a child process. 2021-03-12T15:56:22Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-03-12T15:58:12Z gwatt: ah, sure makes sense 2021-03-12T15:58:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-12T16:00:13Z fadein joined #scheme 2021-03-12T16:02:17Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T16:02:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-12T16:04:29Z wasamasa: amirouche3: it's live: https://wald.brause.cc/ 2021-03-12T16:06:44Z wasamasa: amirouche3: though with the sqlite backend for the time being 2021-03-12T16:07:44Z amirouche3: wow that is definitly very fast 2021-03-12T16:07:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:10:02Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:10:06Z amirouche3: ahah, I was going to go inside my ~/src/python directory, but now I feel a lil' bit offbeat. 2021-03-12T16:10:37Z jcowan: I have been browsing the Washington Post with the lynx browser, which is a TUI browser. It does not fetch images, or execute JS, or even do CSS. That means that if it is slow (and it is slow), it is because the back end is underprovisioned. 2021-03-12T16:11:05Z jcowan: (Not having JS support means the WaPo firewall does not work, which is why I do it.) 2021-03-12T16:12:27Z aeth: I just block JS on such sites with umatrix 2021-03-12T16:12:40Z aeth: You still miss out on images a lot of the time 2021-03-12T16:13:50Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:14:26Z gwatt: Are sites using js to lazy-load images when they come into view? 2021-03-12T16:14:41Z amirouche3: ime they may also under use their provisionning.. 2021-03-12T16:15:07Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T16:24:27Z amirouche3: gwatt: medium does that IIUC 2021-03-12T16:25:29Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-12T16:33:16Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-12T16:33:57Z jcowan: s/it is slow/reading the site is slow/ 2021-03-12T16:38:42Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:38:49Z gwatt: I've found FF reader mode to be good at avoiding those kinds of things. It would be nice if I could right-click -> "Open in reader mode" to avoid any kind of timing issues that occur 2021-03-12T16:42:02Z Noisytoot: jcowan: Can't you use NoScript (or LibreJS if it's nonfree)? 2021-03-12T16:42:14Z Noisytoot uses LibreJS 2021-03-12T16:42:25Z jcowan: Probably 2021-03-12T16:42:43Z jcowan: But I am very used to lynx also 2021-03-12T16:43:03Z jcowan: note that I use Chrome most of the time 2021-03-12T16:43:17Z Noisytoot: Is there a browser written in Scheme? 2021-03-12T16:44:08Z wasamasa: a web browser you mean? 2021-03-12T16:44:31Z Noisytoot: yes 2021-03-12T16:44:31Z wasamasa: obviously not 2021-03-12T16:44:45Z Noisytoot: Why is it obvious? 2021-03-12T16:44:59Z Noisytoot: There's one in Emacs Lisp (eww) 2021-03-12T16:47:31Z jcowan: The problem is that basic Internet stuff is not standardized and not portable. 2021-03-12T16:47:35Z wasamasa: do you have any kind of idea how much work it is to make one that can deal with the modern web 2021-03-12T16:48:15Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-12T16:48:21Z wasamasa: whereas this community is obsessed with portable code 2021-03-12T16:48:51Z wasamasa: https://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/internals/howbrowserswork/ 2021-03-12T16:50:00Z wasamasa: now, there's one of those webkit wrappers, but I wouldn't call that a browser: https://github.com/mrosset/nomad 2021-03-12T16:50:32Z wasamasa: that would be like calling xwidget-webkit a browser 2021-03-12T16:53:28Z jcowan: wasamasa: If we didn't care about portability and standards, this channel wouldn't exist and we'd all be living in #racket. 2021-03-12T16:53:46Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-03-12T16:54:26Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T16:55:45Z jcowan: Riastradh has been known to complain that the Scheme community is obsessed with writing new Schemes instead of enhancing existing ones. But since that is so, portability is the easiest way to extend reach. 2021-03-12T16:55:53Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T16:56:38Z jcowan: or rather interoperability, in the sense of Clinger's distinction 2021-03-12T16:57:17Z Wezl: f12 2021-03-12T16:57:22Z Wezl: sry 2021-03-12T16:57:51Z Wezl: there's been similar issues/discussion in #apl 2021-03-12T17:07:56Z dpk realizes she has been mentally conflating Will(iam D.) Clinger and Will Byrd for goodness knows how long 2021-03-12T17:08:19Z jcowan: Wezl: You mean about browsers, or standards, or interoperability vs. portability? 2021-03-12T17:08:58Z jcowan: dpk: Which Will Byrd? 2021-03-12T17:09:03Z jcowan: Dr. Google not helpful 2021-03-12T17:09:08Z dpk: the miniKanren one 2021-03-12T17:09:18Z jcowan: Oh, of course. 2021-03-12T17:09:25Z dpk: (not the Mass for 3, 4, and 5 Voices one) 2021-03-12T17:09:27Z jcowan: Yeah, no. 2021-03-12T17:10:29Z jcowan: Actually, the very first Will Byrd that pops is a VP at Byrd Tile Distributors, Raleigh, North Carolina. 2021-03-12T17:11:05Z jcowan: dpk: Don't feel bad, it was just a hash table collision 2021-03-12T17:11:11Z Wezl: jcowan: mostly writing new APLs instead of enhancing existing ones 2021-03-12T17:12:38Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T17:14:00Z draxoula: can someone help me with this? ```(if (<= (if (null? head) 0 (if (and (list? head)) (first head) head)) 2021-03-12T17:14:01Z draxoula: (if (null? head-body) 0 (if (list? head-body) (first head-body) head-body)))...``` 2021-03-12T17:14:27Z draxoula: it's supposed to let me compare two items, even if one is '(4) 2021-03-12T17:14:52Z draxoula: but it's not working, because for some reason the second if branch returns '() sometimes... but shouldn't that be impossible? 2021-03-12T17:16:22Z Zipheir: draxoula: Can you paste the whole thing? It's hard to figure out what's going on from the just those lines. 2021-03-12T17:18:29Z draxoula: Zipheir: before I do that, it's in #lang racket, is this the wrong channel to bother you with?are they that different? 2021-03-12T17:19:24Z Zipheir: draxoula: I don't think anyone would complain if there's Racket stuff in there. Please don't worry about it. 2021-03-12T17:19:32Z draxoula: https://gist.github.com/draxoula/9e1561d7b2b7fc9573d938feb1ddfdeb 2021-03-12T17:20:31Z sdu quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-12T17:21:17Z Zipheir: draxoula: That last clause of merge is pretty hairy. I think it could be simplified. 2021-03-12T17:22:22Z Wezl: what's the (and (list? head)) for? 2021-03-12T17:22:29Z Wezl: line 27 2021-03-12T17:23:24Z draxoula: because I have to make it handle '() '(5) and 5 I think... 2021-03-12T17:23:41Z draxoula: I wish <= worked with null by making it treat it like 0 2021-03-12T17:23:47Z draxoula: nil, sorry 2021-03-12T17:23:48Z Zipheir: Wezl: It's supposed to handle lists of numbers and lists of lists of numbers, IIUC. 2021-03-12T17:24:36Z draxoula: well apparently cl has the same problem... huh I didn't know that 2021-03-12T17:24:39Z Zipheir: draxoula: Can you refactor this to deal with the number-number, number-list, list-number, and list-list cases as different cond clauses? 2021-03-12T17:25:04Z Zipheir: IMHO it's a very good thing that nil/() isn't a number. 2021-03-12T17:25:08Z Wezl: I mean is monadic and ever useful outside of (apply and ...)? 2021-03-12T17:25:16Z draxoula: Zipheir: that is a good point... I just wanted to know why sometimes the second branch returns '() sometimes if I run it 2021-03-12T17:25:34Z Zipheir: draxoula: Sounds like a bug. 2021-03-12T17:25:36Z draxoula: and I don't get how either comparison could return '()! I know it comes from the (first head) part 2021-03-12T17:25:47Z draxoula: how does first ever return '()?!? 2021-03-12T17:26:09Z Zipheir: (car '(() ...)) ; => () 2021-03-12T17:26:59Z Zipheir: (And car == first, of course.) 2021-03-12T17:27:16Z Zipheir: (Does Racket prefer `first'?) 2021-03-12T17:27:26Z draxoula: eh, I got used to it from cl 2021-03-12T17:27:43Z draxoula: I mean unless you are dealing with reaching into lists, it doesn't matter 2021-03-12T17:27:52Z draxoula: imho 2021-03-12T17:29:08Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-12T17:29:13Z Zipheir: Anyway, I believe that if you "unroll" that final clause of merge into a case analysis, the whole thing will be clearer and any errors will be easy to spot. 2021-03-12T17:36:17Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-12T17:36:59Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T17:41:06Z snan: Wezl: is monadic and the same as andf from logical combinators? Then yes, I sue that all the time in maps or as a proc arg 2021-03-12T17:41:32Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T17:42:29Z Zipheir: What's 'monadic and'? 2021-03-12T17:42:57Z snan: Wezl: andf is a way to do masking in lists. (map andf '(good #f 'ok)' '(#f great great)) 2021-03-12T17:43:23Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-12T17:44:09Z jcowan: monadic = unary, in this context 2021-03-12T17:44:24Z snan: Thanks 2021-03-12T17:44:41Z snan: In which case my think is not good 2021-03-12T17:44:52Z snan: It's basicallt compose not not 2021-03-12T17:45:22Z snan: Except worse because it doesn't change to #t 2021-03-12T17:45:33Z snan: It just stays 'great 2021-03-12T17:46:03Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-12T17:48:01Z Zipheir: I guess Wezl meant unary. 2021-03-12T17:48:44Z snan: I get that now 2021-03-12T17:49:18Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-12T17:49:29Z snan: I was mistakenly saying variadic the other day when I meant, uh, multi-varic or polyadic 2021-03-12T17:49:35Z snan: polyary 2021-03-12T17:49:37Z Zipheir: (I'm sure we can derive a monad from a set of Scheme objects and the single operation unary-and, but whatever.) 2021-03-12T17:52:44Z Wezl: yeah unary 2021-03-12T17:55:00Z snan: I like unary and as an handler in variadic. Like yes, the apply and case that you mentioned. That's not nothing 2021-03-12T17:55:49Z Zipheir: And if something's not nothing, it must be just something. 2021-03-12T17:56:28Z Wezl: I think you meant Not and Just 2021-03-12T17:56:54Z Wezl hates that sort of case sensitivity 2021-03-12T17:57:13Z Zipheir: In SRFI 189-speak, it's (just something). 2021-03-12T17:57:39Z Zipheir: Of course, in Scheme, we can't infer anything else about x from (not (nothing? x)). 2021-03-12T17:58:41Z snan: In English I associate Just Something with "exactly one thing" (granted, possibly a tuple) and Not Nothing with "at least one thing" 2021-03-12T17:59:09Z zgrep quit (Quit: It's a quitter's world.) 2021-03-12T18:00:04Z Zipheir: That makes first-order logical sense. 2021-03-12T18:00:36Z Wezl: ok that Justifies Haskell's naming more, because the List monad has the ability to have multiple values but the Maybe monad doesn't 2021-03-12T18:00:37Z zgrep joined #scheme 2021-03-12T18:05:52Z amirouche3: wasamasa: is the data for wald available somewhere ? 2021-03-12T18:06:08Z wasamasa: see the extract/transform/load files 2021-03-12T18:07:27Z amirouche3: ty 2021-03-12T18:11:51Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-12T18:11:54Z draxoula quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-12T18:13:11Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-03-12T18:14:28Z xelxebar_ joined #scheme 2021-03-12T18:15:50Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T18:19:32Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T18:21:23Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T18:26:17Z amirouche3: I will to reproduce your result to understand where the problem is. I suspect the problem is nstore does not have a query optimizer. 2021-03-12T18:27:23Z wasamasa: well, I've pretty much had to forego its query capabilities to perform joins and filtering 2021-03-12T18:28:21Z wasamasa: the profiler suggests slowness in srfi-128 and the sample srfi-167 implementation 2021-03-12T18:30:18Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-12T18:46:17Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T18:46:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-12T18:51:19Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-12T18:51:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-12T18:55:28Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-12T19:04:50Z Khisanth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-12T19:05:10Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-12T19:06:20Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-12T19:08:54Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T19:08:57Z amirouche3 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T19:19:59Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-12T19:20:55Z mr_machina joined #scheme 2021-03-12T19:22:06Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2021-03-12T19:27:16Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-12T19:34:08Z jcowan: snan: That is logical but not English. Idiomatically, _just something_ means 'I can't say exactly what, je ne sais quoi', whereas _not nothing_ means 'not (as you say or imply) insignificant'. 2021-03-12T19:36:38Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T19:40:32Z snan: jcowan: you are talking to Idiomdrottning 2021-03-12T19:41:04Z amirouche3 joined #scheme 2021-03-12T19:41:06Z snan: Phrases can have different semes in different contexts 2021-03-12T19:42:02Z snan: Intonation can disambiguate in this case 2021-03-12T19:42:08Z jcowan: Sure; idioms are defeasible. But that's the normal and usual sense. "What are you worried about?" "I don't know, there's just something." "Oh, it's probably nothing." 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I just want this Cobol program for our bank to still work when we wake up tomorrow."? 2021-03-12T22:48:22Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-12T22:49:09Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-12T22:50:26Z amirouche: rudybot: I am stupid 2021-03-12T22:50:45Z rudybot: amirouche: ok feeling really stupid here, but... how do i call a procedure that takes no arguments? I am just doing... 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Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-13T04:34:00Z rickygee joined #scheme 2021-03-13T04:40:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T04:42:21Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T04:43:04Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-13T04:45:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T04:54:01Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-13T05:04:50Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T05:18:21Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T06:02:57Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T06:09:39Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-13T06:17:26Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-13T06:20:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T06:23:59Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-13T06:25:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T06:26:57Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T06:48:09Z firstlove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T06:49:19Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T06:50:01Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-13T06:50:43Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-13T06:53:54Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T06:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T06:58:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-13T06:59:10Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T07:00:02Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-13T07:00:24Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-13T07:03:24Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T07:32:38Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T07:32:52Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-13T07:43:58Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-13T07:46:18Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-13T08:00:38Z wilfredh joined #scheme 2021-03-13T08:03:09Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-13T08:04:38Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T08:05:59Z manumanumanu quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2021-03-13T08:06:51Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T08:21:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T08:26:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T08:27:10Z gmaggior joined #scheme 2021-03-13T08:40:47Z nilgeisw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T08:44:02Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-13T08:50:57Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-13T09:06:27Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-13T09:08:27Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-13T09:11:14Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-13T09:12:42Z dpk: jcowan: in https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/TimeAdvancedCowan.md you say that TAI = UTC before 1 January 1958, but the first entry in the historical leap seconds file is 1 January 1961 — what happened between 1958 and 1961? 2021-03-13T09:30:34Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T09:32:19Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-13T09:35:46Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T10:01:31Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-13T10:07:58Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-13T10:13:32Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-13T10:13:36Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-13T10:16:28Z jeko quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-13T10:19:36Z amirouche1: step 0) over-engineer step 1) simplify step 2) go to 0 2021-03-13T10:19:38Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T10:22:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T10:26:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T10:28:15Z amirouche1: I have a question at the intersection of generics and record types. 2021-03-13T10:28:28Z amirouche1: and predicates. 2021-03-13T10:28:53Z amirouche1: How can I specify the type returned by a generic constructor? 2021-03-13T10:29:22Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-13T10:30:21Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-13T10:31:13Z siraben: amirouche1: specify the type, in Scheme? 2021-03-13T10:31:31Z siraben: if not Scheme, you could look into row polymorphism for records 2021-03-13T10:32:05Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-13T10:32:48Z dpk: ‘Add a comment saying “This procedure returns an object satisfying the predicate ice-cream?” ’ is how one would do that in standard Scheme. 2021-03-13T10:37:06Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T10:45:36Z amirouche1: I am experimenting with a scheme for signatures, that aim to document the arguments and returned values. 2021-03-13T10:46:14Z amirouche1: Here such a signature: (make-okvslite . args) (every any?) → any? 2021-03-13T10:46:46Z amirouche1: make-okvslite is a generic constructor, every actual implementation may return they own record type 2021-03-13T10:48:51Z amirouche1: the -> any? means make-okvslite may return an object of any type, but that is not precise. In fact, it is supposed to return an object which type that is registred somewhere. 2021-03-13T10:50:24Z amirouche1: That is it, I can create some kind of type register, and document that make-okvslie returns one of those registred type. 2021-03-13T10:51:02Z amirouche1: It not just for documentation, I aim at some point to build a tool to check those types. 2021-03-13T10:51:11Z amirouche1: (without introducing new syntax) 2021-03-13T10:53:22Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T10:53:24Z amirouche1: That is I can rewrite the following signature into (make-okvslite . args) (every any?) → any? 2021-03-13T10:53:32Z amirouche1: Into the following: (make-okvslite . args) (zero-or-more any?) → okvslite? 2021-03-13T10:56:47Z amirouche1: forgo the zero-or-more that is wrong copy of the draft. 2021-03-13T11:00:51Z amirouche1: wow. bag from srfi-113 is the most demanding in terms of naming: 2021-03-13T11:01:16Z amirouche1: On one side: there is both bag-remove! and bag-delete! 2021-03-13T11:01:51Z amirouche1: On the other side there is also: bag-size bag-unique-size bag-sum bag-count 2021-03-13T11:05:10Z amirouche1: and bag-element-count 2021-03-13T11:05:40Z amirouche1: - (bag-sum . bags) will compute the union of the bags and increment in an appropriate way. 2021-03-13T11:06:26Z amirouche1: ... 2021-03-13T11:07:52Z amirouche1: I am not sure about bag-element-count since it does not take a predicate as argument (unlike other -count procedures) 2021-03-13T11:13:09Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-13T11:30:22Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T11:35:28Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T11:49:18Z amirouche1: Is there a term that encompass both the compression / decompression and encryption / decryption of page of binary files? 2021-03-13T11:50:42Z amirouche1: I usually call that kind of procedure massage, that together with unmassage, they do not sound very nice. 2021-03-13T11:51:27Z amirouche1: basically those are a middlewares inside read and write. 2021-03-13T11:54:35Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-13T11:54:50Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-13T11:59:07Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-13T12:11:18Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-13T12:23:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T12:28:01Z JokerAscensionEx joined #scheme 2021-03-13T12:28:08Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T12:28:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T12:55:18Z JokerAscensionEx joined #scheme 2021-03-13T12:55:26Z JokerAscensionEx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T12:55:42Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:02:28Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T13:04:21Z choas quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:21Z wasamasa quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z lad_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z _anb quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z cpape`` quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z Oxyd quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z jxy_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:22Z DeeEff__ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z jealousmonk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z cross quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:23Z LeoNerd quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:24Z srji quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:04:24Z eagleflo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z eagleflo joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z DeeEff_ joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z srji joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z jxy joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z _anb joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z wasamasa joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z jealousmonk joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z lad joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:03Z cross joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:04Z Oxyd joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:04Z cpape``` joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:06:39Z partyclicker quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T13:07:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T13:09:36Z choas joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:23:45Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:33:28Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:35:22Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-13T13:45:48Z amirouche1: according to sqlite-lsm-ext doc, db file is made of blocks, which are made of sqlite page (not necessarly the size OS page) which may be compressed or encrypted 2021-03-13T13:45:50Z amirouche1: https://sqlite.org/src/file?name=ext/lsm1/lsm_file.c&ci=trunk 2021-03-13T13:48:09Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:02:32Z amirouche1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-13T14:03:25Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:15:55Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T14:22:09Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T14:24:22Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:24:28Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-13T14:27:41Z Noisytoot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-13T14:28:29Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:29:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T14:32:35Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:35:25Z mdhughes: amirouche1: If you define it as a hierarchy of records, you can use (baseclass? x) to be sure. 2021-03-13T14:40:48Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:42:02Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T14:48:55Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:51:07Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-13T14:51:26Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:52:35Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:55:32Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-13T14:56:21Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T15:05:23Z partyclicker joined #scheme 2021-03-13T15:14:12Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-13T15:21:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T15:25:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T15:25:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-13T15:27:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T15:27:42Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T15:32:21Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T15:37:27Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-13T15:44:06Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-13T15:44:58Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T15:53:21Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T15:57:00Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:04:44Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-13T16:11:37Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:14:25Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T16:14:58Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-13T16:19:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T16:19:58Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-13T16:20:58Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-13T16:26:08Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:27:06Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-13T16:27:34Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-13T16:29:49Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:32:57Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T16:43:41Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-13T17:02:35Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T17:02:57Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-13T17:14:55Z nullx002 quit (Quit: qicr for android: faster and better) 2021-03-13T17:45:40Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T17:47:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T17:48:21Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-13T17:51:28Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-13T17:52:50Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T17:54:46Z gmaggior quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T17:57:22Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T17:59:59Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-13T18:10:15Z DeeEff_ quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-13T18:11:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T18:16:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T18:19:33Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-13T18:33:01Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-13T18:33:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T18:34:12Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T18:34:13Z dpk wonders why Riastradh designed SRFI 43 vector-binary-search to take a C-style cmp argument instead of a Lisp-like less? argument 2021-03-13T18:34:23Z dpk: also provided no vector-binary-search-right 2021-03-13T18:37:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T18:43:50Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T18:46:17Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-13T18:58:35Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-13T19:15:47Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-13T19:16:32Z Zipheir: dpk: I'd like it if the cmp argument were expected to return one of the symbols {greater, equal, less}, or something like that. 2021-03-13T19:17:04Z amirouche: cmp is faster 2021-03-13T19:17:39Z amirouche: one call to cmp gives three different result, to do the same with less? you would need 2 calls. 2021-03-13T19:19:00Z amirouche: wasamasa: did you pre-publish srfi-167 and srfi-168 somewhere? 2021-03-13T19:19:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:19:15Z wasamasa: not yet, no 2021-03-13T19:19:34Z wasamasa: there's still that ugly workaround for the new pack/unpack behavior in my code 2021-03-13T19:21:01Z amirouche: fwiw, given filters such as (attr0 (value0 value1)) (attr1 (value2)), you need something like (list (var 'mush) attr0 value0)) (list (var 'mush) attr0 value1) (list (var 'mush) attr1 value2) 2021-03-13T19:21:59Z amirouche: the first pattern you pass nstore-from does matter, but if you just do that it will already reduce the query time. 2021-03-13T19:22:34Z amirouche: wasamasa: there is many problems, I starting putting my ideas together, I think I do not want to upset someone else, so I am considering withdrawing the srfis. 2021-03-13T19:23:46Z amirouche: jcowan: is it possible to withdraw a finished srfi? 2021-03-13T19:24:37Z Zipheir: I don't think it would do much to withdraw a finished srfi. It'll still be on the site. 2021-03-13T19:25:06Z amirouche: with a notice along the line: it is not perfect / ready for prime time. 2021-03-13T19:25:15Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-13T19:25:39Z Zipheir: The spec, or the implementation? 2021-03-13T19:26:10Z amirouche: the spec. 2021-03-13T19:26:40Z amirouche: and the implementation. I mean it is possible to use (see nomunufo and guile-babelia) but it can be better 2021-03-13T19:28:55Z Zipheir: I suppose it's best to withdraw it, then. 2021-03-13T19:35:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T19:37:09Z ohama quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:38:34Z amirouche: should I mail Arthur directly or the mailing list? 2021-03-13T19:40:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:43:12Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:46:37Z Zipheir: amirouche: I'd suggest asking the ml about it first. Maybe people would have thoughts about whether or not to withdraw. 2021-03-13T19:47:04Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-13T19:47:23Z Zipheir: (And wasamasa, who seems to be the most active Schemer WRT those SRFIs.) 2021-03-13T19:47:34Z ohama joined #scheme 2021-03-13T19:47:55Z amirouche: wasamasa: told to stop purging my projects and create stable release. 2021-03-13T19:49:23Z amirouche: told me 2021-03-13T19:51:30Z corpix joined #scheme 2021-03-13T19:53:48Z amirouche: waaaaaaaaaaaaat! I just read my dream sentence: It was an incorrect design choice. 2021-03-13T19:54:40Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T19:54:46Z amirouche: I asked the people of wiredtiger (the okvs engine behind mongodb since 3.2 and the successor of sleepycat berkeleydb) 2021-03-13T19:55:19Z amirouche: here is the thread: https://groups.google.com/g/wiredtiger-users/c/qb6AhJzfmYA/m/LL_Xgm37AAAJ 2021-03-13T19:55:33Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-13T19:55:45Z amirouche: basically, being able to estimate the count of keys in a subspace is good idea :) 2021-03-13T19:55:59Z amirouche: but no okvs does it. 2021-03-13T19:57:25Z amirouche: that would make building a query optimizer for nstore trivial. 2021-03-13T19:58:40Z corpix quit (Quit: corpix) 2021-03-13T19:58:56Z corpix joined #scheme 2021-03-13T20:14:52Z dpk: amirouche: if the sample implementation is wrong but the SRFI specification isn't, i don't see a reason to withdraw — just fix the sample implementation 2021-03-13T20:18:34Z gwatt: unless the srfi is already marked as complete can you not also submit an updated specifcation? 2021-03-13T20:19:01Z dpk: yes, but i believe the SRFI amirouche is referring to is already marked final 2021-03-13T20:21:57Z Zipheir: I had a hard time understanding the SRFI 167 & 168 documents, and I don't think I'm alone in that. 2021-03-13T20:24:21Z Zipheir: The primary nstore constructor (SRFI 168), for example, has an unexplained PREFIX argument, and the transaction type used throughout isn't documented. 2021-03-13T20:25:34Z amirouche take notes 2021-03-13T20:25:49Z amirouche: I can not fix the implementation without changing a lot of things. 2021-03-13T20:25:55Z amirouche: I can not fix the implementation without changing a lot of things in the spec. 2021-03-13T20:26:02Z amirouche: I will make roadmap of what will chang. 2021-03-13T20:27:22Z Zipheir: amirouche: You could write new SRFIs to supersede those. 2021-03-13T20:27:36Z Zipheir: They definitely seem to have been finalized in a very rough state. 2021-03-13T20:43:58Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T20:46:31Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-13T20:47:37Z Zipheir: The last comment relates more to SRFI 168 than to 167. 2021-03-13T20:49:39Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-13T20:49:56Z Zipheir: From the perspective of someone who knows little of database jargon/arcana, it seems like there's a lot of operational description, but not much in the way of denotational. ('what' as opposed to 'how') I guess you're assumed to be familiar with what things like 'transaction' mean. 2021-03-13T20:59:16Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T21:00:42Z Zipheir: (The preference for 'how' explanations over 'what' is, of course, unfortunately endemic to programming. "We have the ways of making things, but things are evidence / perhaps, one day, the thing we'll make is sense." (Conor McBride)) 2021-03-13T21:02:26Z amirouche: I sent and email to srfi-167 ml https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-167/msg/16229013/ 2021-03-13T21:03:15Z amirouche: Zipheir: transaction, I recognize that I thought that it is common sense. The rest is also obscure to everybody but very few people. 2021-03-13T21:03:46Z Zipheir: This is why SRFIs should have formal semantics! 2021-03-13T21:05:13Z amirouche: what is formal semantics? 2021-03-13T21:05:43Z amirouche: (also, I have an hard time to read srfi-168, without testing in the REPL) 2021-03-13T21:06:07Z amirouche: (I know what it does, but the code does permute unpermute combine prefix-permutation... :O) 2021-03-13T21:06:48Z amirouche: (I can use it, but it is difficult to enter the code even with documentation) 2021-03-13T21:08:36Z Zipheir: amirouche: In a nutshell, they're mathematical ways of precisely stating what programs mean or do. 2021-03-13T21:09:11Z amirouche: I do not have the required knowledge to do that, yet. 2021-03-13T21:09:57Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-13T21:12:23Z Zipheir: amirouche: Here's a good example of how semantics can be used to structure a system, in this case, version control http://www.andres-loeh.de/SemanticsOfVersionControl/SemanticsOfVersionControl-Onward.pdf 2021-03-13T21:12:34Z Zipheir: It actually simplifies everything, IMHO. 2021-03-13T21:13:13Z Zipheir: Conal Elliott's "denotational design" is very similar; there's an excellent seminar of his at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmKYiUOEo2A 2021-03-13T21:14:36Z Zipheir: The gist of all this is to use mathematics to be as clear as possible about what things are, and to use that semantic model to create a correct implementation. 2021-03-13T21:15:45Z amirouche: noted. 2021-03-13T21:17:25Z Zipheir: Many programming languages have formal semantics; every Scheme standard since R4, I think, has published (partial) semantics. 2021-03-13T21:18:57Z Zipheir: They're a good example of how precise you can be with this discipline; as siraben will tell you, you can implement the R5RS semantics literally (with a little translation into the language of your choice) and call/cc will work out of the box. 2021-03-13T21:28:09Z X-Scale: I'm still trying to make full sense of the R5RS Formal semantics from page 40 to 43. At a first glance it looks to be too short. Is it missing something there ? 2021-03-13T21:35:19Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-13T21:36:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T21:39:02Z aeth: It could just be that R5RS is tiny, which is why any reasonable Scheme is extended from there, even R7RS. 2021-03-13T21:39:18Z aeth: math notation style things make things really compact 2021-03-13T21:39:29Z Zipheir: Quite possibly. I only have access to the HTML R5RS document, so I'm not sure where the 40--43 pages are. 2021-03-13T21:40:06Z Zipheir: According to Oleg, "there are somethings Will Clinger didn't get around to" in those semantics. 2021-03-13T21:40:48Z Zipheir: siraben's Haskell implementation of the R5 semantics: https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot/ 2021-03-13T21:41:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-13T21:42:24Z X-Scale: Zipheir: I'm reading those pages from this pdf -> https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf 2021-03-13T21:44:44Z Zipheir: Ah, ty. 2021-03-13T21:44:55Z Zipheir: Notably, dynamic-wind is missing. 2021-03-13T21:45:45Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-13T21:46:57Z Zipheir: R6RS, which has a new (operational) semantics, may have more detail. 2021-03-13T21:47:58Z Zipheir: (http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-15.html#node_chap_A) 2021-03-13T21:49:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-13T21:51:33Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-13T21:54:10Z jcowan: amirouche1: You can definitely withdraw a SRFI at the time that you finalize a replacement SRFI. 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friscosam ArneBab midre X-Scale tessier gf3 ft duncanm Duns_Scrotus nevermind pounce Zipheir littleme alelos- ramrunne1 copec hugo remexre acarrico mats kwmiebach englishm__ ec pranavats romariorios[m] Irvise[m] even4void[m] mbakke Ericson2314 null_radix[m] siraben 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: deselby Gnuxie[m] dieggsy m1dnight_ silky bsima1 dpk elflng teej terrorjack stux16777216Away stux|work tdammers DerGuteMoritz edmoore drakonis Vultyre amoe_ yosafbridge` ecraven astronavt___ _________ mdhughes topoi joast Lysandros balkamos gwatt GreaseMonkey samth lpsmith physpi Boarders hive-mind xandkar Blkt Riviera ullbeking dk657 cartwright lockywolf iv4nshm4k0v rubic cky944 krjt dTal dnm Balooga jcowan nmeum iltutmus iv-so woky kbtr_ fiddlerwoaroof 2021-03-14T08:37:30Z names: brettgilio_ aos fizzie averell mario-goulart gabot nisstyre eMBee akkad aeth lortabac em foof` zooey tryte dan64 gnomon r0kc4t rudybot ravndal casaca hyiltiz belmarca pflanze Yardanico SirDayBat `micro bitwize_ codingquark bandali Formbi elly_ danielkoning aoh ineiros_ ski some02 GoGi bashbjorn erkin rann lavaflow mjsir911 stephe pinoaffe ozzloy conjunctive d_run CORPORAL_groovy rickbutton dto bchar jackhill nckx rotty cemerick 2021-03-14T08:39:18Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-14T08:42:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T08:42:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-14T08:43:52Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T08:44:18Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-14T08:48:59Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-14T08:51:49Z wasamasa: you get used to it 2021-03-14T08:52:01Z wasamasa: if you want funny let variations, try picolisp 2021-03-14T08:52:53Z wasamasa: and interim's (let i 0) 2021-03-14T08:53:01Z wasamasa: that's just JS-like 2021-03-14T08:53:10Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-14T09:00:03Z deselby quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-14T09:12:59Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T09:13:25Z teardown joined #scheme 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quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T12:08:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-14T12:10:44Z elflng quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-14T12:14:20Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-03-14T12:16:48Z terrorjack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T12:20:22Z terrorjack joined #scheme 2021-03-14T12:23:43Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2021-03-14T12:25:14Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:31:14Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:38:18Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-14T12:50:22Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:50:38Z rdd` joined #scheme 2021-03-14T12:50:40Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-03-14T12:50:51Z SirDayBat quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:50:53Z rdd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:51:18Z ineiros_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:51:18Z some02 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T12:52:13Z ineiros joined #scheme 2021-03-14T12:53:03Z sudden joined #scheme 2021-03-14T12:57:01Z SirDayBat joined #scheme 2021-03-14T12:58:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T13:08:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:08:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-14T13:09:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:09:14Z amirouche: yet another binary encoding https://baremessages.org/ 2021-03-14T13:09:28Z amirouche: with a r7rs scheme impl: https://github.com/nmeum/kahl 2021-03-14T13:09:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-14T13:10:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:10:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-14T13:12:06Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-14T13:12:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-14T13:13:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:13:16Z dpk: we don't have enough binary encodings, that's for sure 2021-03-14T13:13:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-14T13:13:44Z dpk: not with ASN.1, MsgPack, Protobufs, CBOR, and this 2021-03-14T13:15:31Z iv4nshm4k0v: dpk: I wouldn't call ASN.1 a binary encoding by itself. Though I admit it's not uncommon to conflate it with BER / DER / PER / etc. 2021-03-14T13:16:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T13:32:43Z dpk: apropos binary encodings, i'm wondering what the status of this is? https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/Twinjo.md 2021-03-14T13:32:57Z dpk: jcowan: what's the status of Twinjo.md? 2021-03-14T13:33:33Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:39:20Z jcowan: I haven't done anything towards implementation. 2021-03-14T13:45:50Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-14T13:46:48Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:48:54Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:54:33Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:56:45Z corpix_ joined #scheme 2021-03-14T13:57:17Z corpix quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-14T13:57:54Z DerGuteMoritz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T14:00:52Z corpix_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T14:01:02Z corpix joined #scheme 2021-03-14T14:10:13Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-14T14:11:58Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-14T14:19:39Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T14:20:34Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-14T14:22:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T14:24:50Z DerGuteMoritz joined #scheme 2021-03-14T14:25:05Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T14:25:28Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-14T14:29:41Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-14T14:36:42Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T14:46:27Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-14T14:58:46Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T15:06:42Z frozenErebus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T15:24:54Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-14T15:35:27Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-14T15:38:38Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-14T15:39:15Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-14T15:43:02Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T15:54:54Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T15:55:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T15:58:09Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T16:00:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T16:06:42Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-14T16:09:03Z retropikzel quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-14T16:19:13Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T16:20:38Z cpape``` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-03-14T16:21:54Z cpape joined #scheme 2021-03-14T16:24:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T16:25:06Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T16:25:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T16:31:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T16:31:52Z frozenErebus joined #scheme 2021-03-14T16:32:06Z mdhughes: The best binary encoding of anything is a text encoding gzipped. 2021-03-14T16:32:55Z mdhughes: Unless you need it to have attachment files, then pkzip is acceptable, as in epub, Java WAR files, etc. 2021-03-14T16:35:30Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: Suppose you have M by N array of floats; how do you retrieve the ith row (assuming row-major order) from its gzipped text representation? 2021-03-14T16:35:51Z mdhughes: By reading them in as a stream. 2021-03-14T16:36:11Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-03-14T16:36:26Z mdhughes: If you absolutely need random access, A) Put them in a database, or B) read them into RAM, and assume your OS can memory-map better than you can manage a giant array. 2021-03-14T16:38:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T16:40:25Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: So, the idea is to avoid binary encoding by using binary encoding provided by either the system or some database? 2021-03-14T16:40:29Z mdhughes: Binary formats rot almost immediately. Once the originating program is dead, you might be able to reconstruct a reader, but it won't be easy, and it won't be as generally useful as a text file is. 2021-03-14T16:41:27Z mdhughes: gzip has been implemented on everything, and it's a nearly-trivial algorithm. It'll be with us for 10,000 years. Zip somewhat less so, but it's widespread. 2021-03-14T16:42:14Z mdhughes: Databases always have some way to dump out. You really shouldn't rely on them long-term, though, make sure your backups are text dumps (which all major DB backups are) 2021-03-14T16:44:10Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T17:00:33Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T17:00:49Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-14T17:03:28Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T17:04:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-14T17:04:46Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-14T17:05:03Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: I disagree on both the "rot" point and the value of storing /arbitrary/ binary data for extended periods of time. As a counterexample, consider please the IPv4 packet header format, standardized in 1981, widely supported to this day, and rarely needing to be archived. 2021-03-14T17:05:52Z mdhughes: As you note, those are a wire protocol, they're not stored. 2021-03-14T17:06:11Z mdhughes: You know how we store them when wireshark, etc. reads them for a log? As a text format. 2021-03-14T17:07:42Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: I use tcpdump(8) and ulogd(8) to store them as .pcap binary files. 2021-03-14T17:08:06Z dpk: mdhughes: right, so let's say i have an application where i want to send Scheme S-expressions over the wire at potentially high volume. in that scenario, Twinjo (an application of ASN.1) seems useful 2021-03-14T17:08:25Z iv4nshm4k0v: dpk: +1. 2021-03-14T17:08:39Z mdhughes: Why? SEXPR are already within a hair's breadth of being as efficient as binary. 2021-03-14T17:09:07Z mdhughes: Maybe double. Run them through gzip, and they're as efficient, and you don't need a special decoder that will bitrot. 2021-03-14T17:10:18Z mdhughes: If you work on scales longer than a decade, you'll lose data using binary. Most Kids Today™ in the industry aren't going to be working that long, so they don't care. 2021-03-14T17:10:53Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: IME gzipped text isn't as space-efficient as binary, especially for storing numbers. Not sure about parse time-efficiency, though. 2021-03-14T17:11:05Z Zipheir: Plain text is always the most portable, the most durable. 2021-03-14T17:11:08Z dpk: 🤨 2021-03-14T17:11:52Z dpk: as a kid today (albeit no longer in the industry), i don't see why i wouldn't be working in a decade if i were still in the industry 2021-03-14T17:12:14Z mdhughes: gzip's vastly more efficient than an uncompressed binary file, it'll shrink repeated patterns down to a few bits. 2021-03-14T17:12:43Z mdhughes: dpk: Age discrimination. Once you're 30, it gets exponentially harder to get work. 2021-03-14T17:13:26Z mdhughes: At a mere 50, I'm ridiculously unemployable by any major company. Some smaller ones still realize programming's a skill developed over time, and it's worth paying for. 2021-03-14T17:14:16Z mdhughes: People in their 60s and 70s need to know archaic lore like COBOL or Perl (oh no) if they're hoping to get any future work. 2021-03-14T17:16:15Z Zipheir: Regardless of programmer longevity, well-documented binary protocols can be very reliable. It's the undocumented/obfuscated ones that could disappear in a few years. 2021-03-14T17:17:30Z iv4nshm4k0v: Test: bash$ dd bs=1M count=1 < /dev/urandom | tee -- >(gzip -9cv | wc -c >&2) | od -An -t d4 | gzip -9cv | wc -c >&2 ; result: gzipped binary file: 1048754 bytes; same data as gzipped text file: 1468139 bytes. Like I've said, inefficient. 2021-03-14T17:17:32Z mdhughes: Documentation? What is that? 2021-03-14T17:18:52Z mdhughes: Yes, it's very common to save giant files of random bytes, with no discernible repeating patterns. @_@ 2021-03-14T17:19:27Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-14T17:19:35Z X-Scale: speaking of binary files, I remember a quite efficient diff/update mechanism for executable binaries used by google on the chromium project named Courgette: https://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/software-updates-courgette 2021-03-14T17:20:13Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Documentation is, among other things, why people can write IRC clients ~30 years later. :) 2021-03-14T17:20:26Z rdd` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T17:20:46Z mdhughes: Judging by my difficulties getting one that still works, they can't. 2021-03-14T17:20:54Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: There /are/ "discernible repeating patterns" in the text file; after all, gzip compresses it by the factor of two. My point is that binary files tend to be even more compressible. 2021-03-14T17:21:52Z mdhughes: And IRC is mostly text protocol over telnet. 2021-03-14T17:22:16Z Oxyd: There is no telnet involved in IRC. Did you mean “over sockets”? 2021-03-14T17:22:17Z mdhughes: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1459 2021-03-14T17:22:41Z mdhughes: telnet as in 'plain text socket I can call with the fucking telnet program' 2021-03-14T17:23:00Z Oxyd: Which is very different from telnet. 2021-03-14T17:23:16Z mdhughes: No, it's not. You're thinking of Vt100 over telnet or some such. 2021-03-14T17:23:39Z Oxyd: I'm thinking RFC854. 2021-03-14T17:24:45Z Zipheir: A lot of these simple TCP-based stream protocols start to blend together after a while. 2021-03-14T17:27:53Z iv4nshm4k0v: Per STD 8 (RFC 854), 'All TELNET commands consist of at least a two byte sequence: the "Interpret as Command" (IAC) escape character followed by the code for the command.' Where IAC is defined as the octet with value 255. So far as I can tell, IRC assigns /no/ special value to such an octet, allowing it to be used to encode characters. 2021-03-14T17:28:53Z Zipheir: You could re-use telnet client code for an IRC client, as many did to make Gopher clients. Otherwise they're different protocols. 2021-03-14T17:30:40Z iv4nshm4k0v: (For example, windows-1251 encodes U+044F CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER YA as 255. When someone says "I'm here" in Russian / windows-1251 on IRC, there'll be a Telnet control code right there.) 2021-03-14T17:31:45Z Oxyd: Except IRC will prefix that with PRIVMSG. Telnet would expect you to send \255 as the first character. 2021-03-14T17:46:11Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T17:46:13Z rickygee_ joined #scheme 2021-03-14T17:46:26Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-14T17:55:11Z iv4nshm4k0v: Curiously enough, last year I had to recover some data from files in an ad-hoc binary format I've used back in 1996. It wasn't particularly hard; not because of documentation (there weren't any to speak of) but rather because the format was rather trivial. Back in the day I've had some 80 MB of disk space, so space efficiency was rather an issue. 2021-03-14T17:55:54Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T17:59:07Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-14T17:59:32Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T18:04:43Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:05:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:07:47Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:08:17Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:10:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T18:18:22Z turtleman joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:22:08Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T18:24:36Z frozenErebus quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-14T18:26:21Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:31:19Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:33:11Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:35:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T18:37:34Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T18:43:24Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T18:47:01Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:47:58Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:49:10Z amirouche: dpk: re dot representation of dependencies, I did the same exercise with my project forgoing anything already in R7RS: https://i.imgur.com/ikhd65P.png 2021-03-14T18:50:11Z dpk: heh, nice. yours looks tidier than mine, probably because of shorter node labels 2021-03-14T18:50:20Z dpk: despite more deps 2021-03-14T18:50:54Z denis_ joined #scheme 2021-03-14T18:51:09Z amirouche: untangle is the event loop, and untanglepool is pool of thread to execute cpu bound tasks 2021-03-14T18:51:27Z dpk: can someone suggest a name for a general equivalence predicate which doesn't shadow one of the ones built into Scheme, and also isn't likely to be confused for one of them or to imply particular semantics? 2021-03-14T18:51:54Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T18:51:56Z dpk: equiv? is out because it would be confused with eqv?; egal? is out because it doesn't necessarily follow Henry Baker's egal semantics 2021-03-14T18:52:35Z dpk: perhaps 'same?' 2021-03-14T18:53:17Z iv4nshm4k0v: dpk: I was about to suggest same?, but to me, that sounds more like eq? than anything. 2021-03-14T18:55:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T18:59:11Z Zipheir: ≡? 2021-03-14T18:59:59Z Zipheir: (But what are the semantics?) 2021-03-14T19:00:20Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: APL-style? 2021-03-14T19:02:21Z Zipheir: Is it? That's just the first symbol that comes to mind when I think "same". 2021-03-14T19:03:46Z Zipheir: eqv? is the closest we get to a notion of "sameness" in Scheme, so I wonder how this would differ. 2021-03-14T19:04:09Z rickygee_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T19:11:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T19:16:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T19:18:59Z dpk: Zipheir: the semantics can be defined by the user — it's a predicate argument to a procedure 2021-03-14T19:20:09Z dpk: (well, to a family of procedures, so the same name will crop up again and again in this library's implementation and documentation) 2021-03-14T19:21:24Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-14T19:22:02Z aoh quit (Changing host) 2021-03-14T19:22:02Z aoh joined #scheme 2021-03-14T19:22:07Z Zipheir: dpk: OK. I guess the name `equal' (no `?') is pretty common in SRFIs for "equivalence" relations. 2021-03-14T19:23:51Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-14T19:30:23Z rmrfchi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-14T19:30:42Z rmrfchi joined #scheme 2021-03-14T19:31:18Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-14T19:31:27Z amirouche quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-14T19:36:56Z denis_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-14T19:37:58Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T19:41:18Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-14T19:41:41Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-14T20:02:31Z rickygee_ joined #scheme 2021-03-14T20:02:32Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-14T20:03:14Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-14T20:07:18Z rickygee_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:07:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T20:13:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:15:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T20:20:41Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-14T20:23:45Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-14T20:24:38Z evhan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:28:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T20:45:52Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-14T20:59:03Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:10:09Z partyclicker quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:25:48Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-14T21:30:14Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:37:42Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:49:47Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-03-14T21:50:57Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-14T21:50:57Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-03-14T21:57:05Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-14T22:01:22Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-14T22:04:03Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: hyiltiz) 2021-03-14T22:08:47Z dpk: my new draft SRFI is out https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-223/srfi-223.html 2021-03-14T22:10:43Z dpk: foof`: would you mind taking a look at the sample implementation in https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-223 and seeing why Chibi claims there's an "ERROR on line 15 of file bisect.scm: undefined variable: hi"? it works fine in Gerbil 2021-03-14T22:14:11Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-14T22:24:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-14T22:24:41Z jcowan: mdhughes: Not quite. 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Is this the output of the first iteration of the y combinator in lambda calculus? :" λf. (λf. (λx. f (x x))(λx. f (x x))) "? 2021-03-15T01:30:58Z DHARMAKAYA: Basically nest the y combinator in another λf. and parenthesis every iteration? 2021-03-15T01:33:20Z DHARMAKAYA: Because the right (λx. f (x x)) is input into the left (λx. f (x x)) each iteration 2021-03-15T01:33:35Z Zipheir: Close, f (Y f), not (λf (Y f)). 2021-03-15T01:35:05Z Zipheir: (Y f) = f (f (f ... (f (Y f)) ... )) 2021-03-15T01:36:33Z DHARMAKAYA: Thanks. Why add the "Y"? 2021-03-15T01:36:49Z greyeax joined #scheme 2021-03-15T01:37:04Z DHARMAKAYA: Or is that something else? 2021-03-15T01:37:27Z Zipheir: It's the (λf.(λx. f (x x)) (λx. f (x x))) term. 2021-03-15T01:39:23Z Zipheir: Intuitively, Y is how you "make another copy of f". 2021-03-15T01:39:24Z DHARMAKAYA: Oh I see 2021-03-15T01:39:32Z DHARMAKAYA: Thought so 2021-03-15T01:39:59Z DHARMAKAYA: So the first iteration output looks like? 2021-03-15T01:40:10Z DHARMAKAYA: Or is, rather? 2021-03-15T01:40:31Z DHARMAKAYA: Can write it in lambda notation? 2021-03-15T01:40:39Z Zipheir: Applying Y once gives you f (Y f). 2021-03-15T01:41:15Z DHARMAKAYA: Can type it out? Apologies. Can copy/paste from what I pasted 2021-03-15T01:41:37Z Zipheir: ((λf.(λx. f (x x)) (λx. f (x x))) g) = g ((λf.(λx. f (x x)) (λx. f (x x))) g) 2021-03-15T01:41:42Z DHARMAKAYA: It's too finicky of a thing to generalize. Thanks! 2021-03-15T01:42:38Z Zipheir: If you want to read a simple example of using it to implement recursive functions, check out the "Recursion" chapter of http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/books/gjm.lambook88.pdf (a good book overall). 2021-03-15T01:43:03Z DHARMAKAYA: Oh thanks! 2021-03-15T01:43:16Z DHARMAKAYA: So "g" is some arbitrary input? 2021-03-15T01:43:20Z siraben: SICP also has a good lecture on this 2021-03-15T01:44:09Z DHARMAKAYA: I didn't know that an input was required. Had thought it could output something without needing an input. 2021-03-15T01:44:47Z DHARMAKAYA: siraben: Thanks. 2021-03-15T01:45:00Z DHARMAKAYA: Is "g" a function being input? 2021-03-15T01:45:51Z Zipheir: Yes, it must be. 2021-03-15T01:45:58Z Zipheir: bbiab 2021-03-15T01:46:03Z DHARMAKAYA: OK 2021-03-15T01:55:19Z greyeax quit (Quit: greyeax) 2021-03-15T02:00:56Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-03-15T02:12:17Z brendyyn joined #scheme 2021-03-15T02:14:00Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-15T02:18:16Z turtleman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T02:54:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-15T02:59:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T03:01:38Z rickygee_ joined #scheme 2021-03-15T03:06:09Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-15T03:06:43Z rickygee_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T03:26:19Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-15T03:38:48Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T04:04:07Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 256 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form of keyword arguments (like settings lists or keyword lists for Chibi-style let-keywords, or whatever), but later we accept another keyword argument proposal as the supposed standard for all procedures, surely it would make sense to redefine the keyword arguments in the former docket to follow the system defined in the latter? 2021-03-15T08:38:00Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-15T08:42:23Z dpk: oh, and at some point i believe it will be on the docket that everything which 'is an error' in R7RS small will actually signal an error, and those errors will be given standard error types. but we've also just accepted a bunch of SRFIs, and may accept more in the future (and after resolving the instances in R7RS small), which also use the 'is an error' language, and those presumably also need error types defining 2021-03-15T08:45:31Z dpk reads everything with 'error' or 'exception' in the name in https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work 2021-03-15T08:53:02Z jobol joined 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I do think the call/kw approach of SRFI 177 is the least-worst thing 2021-03-15T15:47:19Z jcowan: lastly, I think it's unreasonable that all cases of "is an error" should signal an exception 2021-03-15T15:47:31Z jcowan: that way lies R6RS MUSTard 2021-03-15T15:50:29Z gwatt: I think the phrasing "is an error" is unfortunate. Anyone new to scheme would reasonably read that as "expect an error" whereas it really means "something unspecified will happen" 2021-03-15T15:51:31Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-03-15T15:53:23Z wasamasa: nasal demons 2021-03-15T15:54:02Z Oxyd: Just call it undefined behaviour. But then that might make people realise that Scheme has more undefined behaviour than C++. :P 2021-03-15T15:57:25Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T15:57:49Z gwatt: not in r6rs! 2021-03-15T15:59:13Z gwatt: Though IMO most of C's undefined behvavior should be renamed "architecture/OS defined behavior" 2021-03-15T15:59:45Z Oxyd: That's known as implementation-defined behaviour, which is a separate thing from undefined behaviour. 2021-03-15T16:00:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-15T16:02:18Z gwatt: I thought implementation-defined behavior was compilers being able to do whatever they wanted. I have a mental distinction between that and what the OS do and what the processor can do. 2021-03-15T16:04:13Z Oxyd: Well yes, but for implementation-defined behaviour, the behaviour has to be consistent and documented. Undefined behaviour has no restrictions whatsoever. 2021-03-15T16:05:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T16:08:24Z dpk: a glance through the archives shows that the explanation that the phrase ‘is an error’ doesn’t necessarily mean there’ll be an error signaled dates from R2RS or earlier. so we’ve been stuck with this since 1985 2021-03-15T16:09:34Z dpk: perhaps when we’re writing R8RS in another twenty years or so, we can change it to ‘is unspecified’ or something more useful like that 2021-03-15T16:10:03Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-15T16:13:55Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-15T16:17:10Z epstein quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-15T16:21:48Z Zipheir: What I'm a bit more worried about is that "it is an error" is often used to describe events the Scheme implementation won't/can't possibly detect, 2021-03-15T16:24:18Z dpk: like it is an error to write a non-halting program? or what? 2021-03-15T16:25:53Z Zipheir: For instance, in SRFI 196, we have that it's an error to call (vector-range vec) and then to mutate vec. 2021-03-15T16:27:50Z Zipheir: Which makes perfect sense, since mutation of vec will affect the values produced by the range. But there's nothing the implementation can do to prevent those mutations, so it's more like a "here there be dragons" sign than a real error condition. 2021-03-15T16:28:45Z Zipheir: Similar observations go for all of the "linear update" forms out there. 2021-03-15T16:30:42Z Zipheir: I believe that it's boilerplate language covering up for a limitation of the language, in other words. 2021-03-15T16:33:18Z jcowan: Yes, and consciously so. In command-line, for example, it is an error to mutate either the list of arguments you get or the individual strings on it. This could be enforced by keeping an immutable bit on every string and pair, but most Schemes think the overhead of that is too high, especially the pairs. The alternative is to require all implementations to cons up a new list and new strings on each call, which is 2021-03-15T16:33:18Z jcowan: paranoid. So "it is an error" is the Right Thing. 2021-03-15T16:34:36Z jcowan: We do have a concept of "implementation restriction", but it's slightly different: it's for things like "out of memory" or "bignum too big" which may depend on the machine as well as the implementation. 2021-03-15T16:35:58Z jcowan: Another recent case: it is an error for fixnum operations to overflow, so that safety-oriented Schemes can check for the overflow and signal it, whereas performance-oriented Schemes can ignore the overflow and return whatever. 2021-03-15T16:36:15Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-15T16:37:09Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-15T16:37:15Z dpk: Zipheir: the implementation could implicitly mark the vector immutable when vector-range is called 2021-03-15T16:37:22Z jcowan: The specific wording "is undefined" would need to be "is undefined behavior" anyway, to avoid colliding with "returns an undefined value" 2021-03-15T16:37:33Z dpk: it would be surprising if it did 2021-03-15T16:37:41Z dpk: but it could do it! 2021-03-15T16:38:10Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-15T16:38:11Z jcowan: Yes, that's another case of a convenience/safety tradeoff 2021-03-15T16:39:05Z jcowan: Early drafts of R6RS attempted to allow for safe and unsafe libraries, but the final draft ended up all safe all the time 2021-03-15T17:01:54Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-15T17:06:11Z Zipheir: All of this makes sense. 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looks like a nice book, thanks for the link :) 2021-03-15T23:18:43Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-15T23:27:14Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-15T23:30:44Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-15T23:32:57Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-15T23:33:48Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-03-15T23:45:33Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T00:12:46Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-16T00:23:48Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-16T00:42:51Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T00:48:38Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-16T00:51:13Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T00:51:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T00:56:43Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T00:56:45Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T00:57:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z ccl-logbot joined #scheme 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z 2021-03-16T01:16:10Z names: ccl-logbot 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2021-03-16T02:16:10Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T02:21:15Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T02:32:33Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T02:45:40Z raingloom quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-16T02:47:10Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-16T02:50:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T02:51:00Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-16T02:55:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T03:01:33Z dieggsy: here's a weird question 2021-03-16T03:02:38Z foof`: is cereal soup? 2021-03-16T03:03:08Z dieggsy: would it be possible for syntax to return e.g. every permutation of the expression (a b c) (maybe arbitrary length...). so you'd do (some-syntax (a b c)) and it would return something like (begin (a b c) (a c b) (b a c) (b c a) (c a b) (c b a)) 2021-03-16T03:04:23Z foof`: not weird, and yes, try it, it's a fun exercise :) 2021-03-16T03:04:50Z dieggsy: foof`: it looks like it might be, lol. i'll try 2021-03-16T03:04:53Z dieggsy: woah 2021-03-16T03:04:57Z dieggsy: what even happened there 2021-03-16T03:05:26Z dieggsy: anyway, anything i'm coming up with in my head is REAL hairy lol but i'll try to write something down 2021-03-16T03:06:21Z dieggsy: er, hygienic syntax that is 2021-03-16T03:06:42Z dieggsy: cause i feel it becomes much more trivial with er-macro-transformer or similar lol 2021-03-16T03:09:33Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T03:19:17Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-16T03:43:45Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-16T03:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T03:58:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-16T04:08:43Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T04:16:16Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-16T04:44:52Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T05:04:48Z cjb quit 2021-03-16T05:14:05Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-16T05:15:11Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T05:15:32Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-16T05:18:30Z ZombieChicken quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T05:19:34Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T05:28:37Z parse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T05:29:04Z parse joined #scheme 2021-03-16T05:33:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T05:37:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T05:50:46Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T05:53:39Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-16T06:17:27Z pflanze_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T06:17:27Z pflanze quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T06:24:59Z lockywolf: what is the correct shebang for scsh? 2021-03-16T06:32:40Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-16T06:37:46Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T06:52:19Z rickygee joined #scheme 2021-03-16T06:58:54Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-16T06:59:53Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-16T07:01:26Z shawnw__ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T07:03:54Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T07:07:14Z shawnw__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T07:07:50Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-16T07:17:55Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-16T07:20:21Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-16T07:21:47Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-16T07:31:03Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T07:34:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T07:35:24Z amirouche1: helllllllllllo #scheme :) 2021-03-16T07:38:24Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T07:39:38Z gagbo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T07:40:43Z amirouche1: emacs-ng: "we are emacs lovers, also we put webrender and deno inside emacs to make awesome and fast" deno is a rework of node. 2021-03-16T07:40:58Z amirouche1: https://github.com/emacs-ng/emacs-ng/#readme 2021-03-16T07:41:01Z lockywolf: yes, it's amazing 2021-03-16T07:42:28Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-16T07:44:22Z lockywolf: What would an r7rs version of scsh look like? scsh requires that "|" be an identifier, and r7rs treats | as a kind of quote for symbol literals. 2021-03-16T07:59:45Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-16T08:03:46Z rickygee quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:03:56Z dpk: technically one could write | as |\||, as is done in the regular expressions SRFI 2021-03-16T08:05:02Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:05:49Z dpk: or, more usefully, just say that it’s a derogation from the R7RS spec that | on its own counts as a symbol 2021-03-16T08:07:42Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T08:08:27Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-16T08:13:01Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-16T08:16:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T08:19:14Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-16T08:36:12Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-16T08:59:50Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T09:12:59Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-16T09:20:46Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-16T09:21:08Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T09:27:51Z amirouche2 joined #scheme 2021-03-16T09:31:07Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T09:34:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T09:38:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T09:42:47Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-16T09:43:12Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T09:47:48Z aoh__ is now known as aoh 2021-03-16T09:48:00Z aoh quit (Changing host) 2021-03-16T09:48:00Z aoh joined #scheme 2021-03-16T09:55:11Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-16T10:10:07Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T10:10:44Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-16T10:13:13Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-16T10:17:58Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T10:17:58Z flatwhatson quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T10:18:08Z flatwhatson joined #scheme 2021-03-16T10:22:40Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-16T11:03:15Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T11:08:54Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T11:09:13Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T11:09:44Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-16T11:18:33Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-16T11:18:58Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T11:35:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T11:40:14Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T11:42:44Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-16T11:45:18Z aquijoule_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T11:47:46Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T11:48:11Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2021-03-16T11:53:33Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T11:53:48Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-16T11:53:55Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-16T11:54:17Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-16T11:59:42Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-16T12:04:48Z nalaginrut joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:10:14Z X-Scale: What would you call the simple technique of having a procedure as an argument of itself to avoid binding it to a variable when you want to do recursion, like in this factorial example ? http://codepad.org/yJjMt3es 2021-03-16T12:14:10Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:18:48Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T12:23:06Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T12:25:01Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:26:35Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:29:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T12:31:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:31:49Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T12:32:41Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:35:33Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T12:40:46Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:48:18Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:48:42Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:48:44Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T12:49:21Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T12:51:06Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T12:53:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T13:00:18Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T13:01:48Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T13:09:45Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-16T13:12:09Z amoe quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-16T13:15:31Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T13:16:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T13:23:04Z Wezl: https://0x0.st/-NTB.png 2021-03-16T13:23:14Z Wezl: something tells me I've done my formatting wrong 2021-03-16T13:25:38Z _________: yes, on line 107, you missed 1 space 2021-03-16T13:28:00Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T13:28:04Z Wezl: vis-parkour rudely doesn't allow me to change that, though I was still able to fix it somewhat 2021-03-16T13:28:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-16T13:35:53Z iv4nshm4k0v joined #scheme 2021-03-16T13:37:43Z rj_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T13:37:59Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T13:44:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T13:44:09Z civodul` joined #scheme 2021-03-16T13:46:08Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T13:46:38Z rj_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T13:50:07Z rj_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T13:56:43Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T13:57:35Z X-Scale: All R{3,4,5,7-small}RS reports PDFs of the "Scheme Reports" section seem to be missing at the end of http://www.scheme-reports.org/ 2021-03-16T14:20:44Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-16T14:21:02Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-16T14:21:09Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T14:22:00Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-16T14:27:30Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-16T14:31:02Z rj_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T14:32:44Z daviid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T14:33:03Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-03-16T14:33:22Z daviid is now known as Guest14771 2021-03-16T14:35:49Z rj_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T14:36:06Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T14:37:04Z amoe joined #scheme 2021-03-16T14:38:10Z epstein joined #scheme 2021-03-16T14:38:12Z epstein quit (K-Lined) 2021-03-16T14:45:59Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T14:46:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T14:47:35Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-16T14:50:48Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-16T14:51:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-16T15:00:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T15:04:17Z civodul` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T15:05:44Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-16T15:06:04Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T15:08:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T15:09:40Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-16T15:10:47Z wasamasa: I discovered today that chibi doesn't support srfi-13 2021-03-16T15:11:30Z wasamasa: is this some political statement in favor of some other string munging srfi or what exactly is going wrong 2021-03-16T15:12:19Z ecraven: I dimly remember something about the string cursors srfi being deemed "better" than srfi-13? 2021-03-16T15:12:42Z wasamasa: sure, if better means that pretty much nothing supports it, I'll take better any day 2021-03-16T15:14:48Z wasamasa: looking at https://doc.scheme.org/srfi/support/ the numbers are 15 vs 10 implementations 2021-03-16T15:14:55Z wasamasa: that's better than expected 2021-03-16T15:15:09Z wasamasa: that is, srfi-13 vs srfi-130 2021-03-16T15:15:26Z rj_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T15:17:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T15:19:15Z rj_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T15:19:47Z ecraven: purely personally, I'm not a huge fan of cursors ;) 2021-03-16T15:20:14Z wasamasa: the one procedure I need it for doesn't expose any cursor-like behavior 2021-03-16T15:29:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T15:31:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T15:31:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T15:40:04Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-16T15:40:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T15:52:17Z Zipheir: SRFI 152? 2021-03-16T15:52:41Z wasamasa: hmm 2021-03-16T15:52:47Z wasamasa: that looks like a sensible compromise 2021-03-16T15:52:57Z Zipheir: That's R7RS-flavored SRFI 13, anyway. 2021-03-16T15:55:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:00:27Z rj_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:03:50Z rj_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T16:09:04Z Zipheir: Riviera: I'm guessing you were referring to the Michaelson lambda calculus book. Yeah, I like it. It's unusually practical--if you want to see how to build a Scheme-subset-with-ML-syntax using just λ-calculus (and macros), that shows how. 2021-03-16T16:09:28Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-16T16:22:37Z siraben: Zipheir: which book is that? 2021-03-16T16:27:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T16:27:12Z Zipheir: siraben: http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/books/gjm.lambook88.pdf There's a semi-recent Dover edition, too, which is, as usual for Dover, inexpensive and fairly nice. 2021-03-16T16:27:41Z siraben: Ah, great. 2021-03-16T16:28:19Z Zipheir: In the original introduction, Michaelson was very enthusiastic and made a bunch of claims like "functional programming will solve the software crisis", "functional programming will be the dominant paradigm in 10 years", etc. 2021-03-16T16:29:50Z phwalkr joined #scheme 2021-03-16T16:30:15Z Zipheir: In the new edition, he writes "declarative languages were oversold as the solution to the software crisis ... the bottom line is that writing and proving correct programs is hard". 2021-03-16T16:30:31Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-16T16:31:14Z siraben: Aw. 2021-03-16T16:31:56Z siraben: FWIW FP has proliferated more and more among popular languages. Eventually some tipping point might come where functional constructs dominate in newer languages 2021-03-16T16:32:00Z siraben: my extrapolation anyway 2021-03-16T16:32:39Z Zipheir: Yes, agreed. The ideas have been spreading a lot since Michaelson wrote his rather dour intro in 2011. 2021-03-16T16:33:45Z siraben: If you tried to show map/filter/reduce to the median OOP programmer in the mid 90s, it'd probably be very unfamiliar, whereas higher-order functions seem all the rage in the JavaScript world these days 2021-03-16T16:33:56Z siraben: s/unfamiliar/unfamiliar to them 2021-03-16T16:40:14Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:42:22Z Zipheir: It reminds me of Wadler's comments on Java's lambdas: "Congratulations, Duke. You've caught up to where Alonzo Church was in the 30's." 2021-03-16T16:43:12Z siraben: Hah, yes. 2021-03-16T16:43:50Z siraben: Maybe this is good to keep in mind re: FP vs. industry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle 2021-03-16T16:44:25Z siraben: Maybe the trough could be placed at the period where dynamic imperative languages proliferated? 2021-03-16T16:44:51Z rj_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:46:11Z Zipheir: siraben: Maybe so. 2021-03-16T16:48:44Z rj_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T16:49:13Z Zipheir: siraben: People always talk about the "AI winter" of the mid-to-late 1980s as being a Bad Time for FP, but that was precisely around the time that the UK was pushing FP in their Alvey program, and Japan was doing the unprecedented 5th Generation project. 2021-03-16T16:49:54Z siraben: Zipheir: yeah, technology peaks and declines at different times in different places 2021-03-16T16:49:59Z Zipheir: So I guess ideas can "trough" in some communities while peaking in others. 2021-03-16T16:50:16Z siraben: the goals claimed by AI researchers leading up to the AI winter in retrospect seemed far too ambitious (as we know and have solved now) 2021-03-16T16:50:28Z Zipheir: Definitely. 2021-03-16T16:52:56Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-16T16:54:04Z Zipheir: One of the great polemic CS-related books, "Computer Power and Human Reasoning" (yes, an odd title) by Joseph Weizenbaum, critiques in detail the claims AI researchers like Minsky were making in the 60s and connects it to the trend of computerizing public services and millitary systems. 2021-03-16T16:54:31Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T16:54:39Z Zipheir: Some of the ideas of what AI "would shortly be able to do" from the 60s seem really bonkers. 2021-03-16T16:55:31Z siraben: OTOH I feel that GEB was too conservative in its predictions of AI! 2021-03-16T16:56:12Z siraben: I remember a distinct quote on it likely being unfeasible for a computer to beat a human at chess 2021-03-16T16:56:17Z Zipheir: Possibly so. I wonder if Hofstader has any thoughts about modern AI research. 2021-03-16T16:56:30Z Zipheir: Hah. 2021-03-16T16:56:36Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-16T16:56:37Z Zipheir: That didn't take too long. 2021-03-16T16:57:38Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-16T16:58:09Z siraben: Yeah, I'm sure Hofstader would have interesting things to say about GPT-2 for instance 2021-03-16T16:58:18Z siraben: Well, GPT-3 now 2021-03-16T17:19:03Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:20:17Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-16T17:22:25Z pflanze_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-16T17:23:31Z pflanze joined #scheme 2021-03-16T17:24:45Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-16T17:25:33Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:28:01Z rj_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:30:29Z rj_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T17:31:51Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-16T17:37:48Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 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anyone interested in proofreading a blog post about my last scheme web application and a nstore rant? 2021-03-16T21:47:37Z wasamasa: aside from amirouche2 that is 2021-03-16T21:50:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T21:52:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T21:53:14Z dieggsy: wasamasa: sure 2021-03-16T21:56:43Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-16T22:08:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-16T22:26:28Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T22:26:53Z phillbush_ joined #scheme 2021-03-16T22:27:52Z daviid` joined #scheme 2021-03-16T22:29:42Z jao- joined #scheme 2021-03-16T22:30:26Z daviid` quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-16T22:31:43Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-16T22:31:52Z phillbush_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-16T22:34:34Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-16T22:34:44Z daviid` joined #scheme 2021-03-16T22:35:25Z badkins quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:25Z jao quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-16T22:35:25Z daviid quit (*.net *.split) 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"./symlink") => #t , (file-symlink? "./symlink") => #t. Is it a bug or a feature? 2021-03-17T08:55:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T08:56:28Z gagbo_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-17T08:57:10Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf: I'd say that symlinks are ought to be indistinguishable from their targets /unless/ the programmer explicitly requests otherwise (e. g., by using lstat syscall in place of stat.) In this case, I'd say that file-symlink? implies such a request (questionable), while file-regular? doesn't (LGTM.) 2021-03-17T08:57:47Z lockywolf: em... ok, make sense 2021-03-17T08:58:28Z lockywolf: make: *** No rule to make target 'sense'. Stop. 2021-03-17T08:59:55Z iv4nshm4k0v: “% make fire → cannot make fire // % why? → no match” 2021-03-17T09:00:03Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-03-17T09:05:38Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:06:05Z lockywolf: scsh is pretty neat 2021-03-17T09:09:51Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-17T09:10:41Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T09:13:45Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:14:16Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T09:16:38Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:20:30Z Formbi joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:30:34Z amirouche2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T09:32:21Z amirouche2 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:35:16Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-17T09:42:16Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:43:20Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T09:43:44Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:44:24Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T09:44:49Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:46:05Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T09:46:28Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:46:41Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T09:47:04Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-17T09:54:16Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-17T09:55:26Z lritter quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T09:55:26Z notzmv quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T10:05:11Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T10:05:22Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T10:07:23Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T10:10:24Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-17T10:10:24Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-17T10:28:19Z dpk: idly considering how one might implement a Scheme to JavaScript compiler in a world in which (as covered recently) most JS implementations don't support proper tail calls (despite that they should do since ES6) 2021-03-17T10:29:11Z dpk: the obvious solution is a trampoline. but perhaps i'm just thick, but i don't see how that could interact well with JS's async stuff 2021-03-17T10:30:18Z dpk: (not the async/await syntax in particular, but callback-based async in general, for which that syntax is merely sugar) 2021-03-17T10:44:07Z wasamasa: async ruins everyone's day 2021-03-17T10:51:02Z dpk: maybe it wouldn't be so bad, actually, *if* you did actually use the async/await syntax (and had some way to tell the trampoline that it needs to call `await f(...)` and not regular `f(...)`) 2021-03-17T10:51:38Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T10:52:05Z dpk: i assumed it would be a disaster to have the await keyword just stop the trampoline until await comes back, but on second thoughts i don't think that's such an issue 2021-03-17T10:55:05Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T10:56:30Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T11:00:04Z clacke: I saw one Scheme-on-JS simply auto-await if it got a Promise 2021-03-17T11:00:12Z clacke: I think that's Lips 2021-03-17T11:01:12Z clacke: yep that's the one https://lips.js.org/ 2021-03-17T11:02:34Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-17T11:02:49Z midow quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-17T11:04:10Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-17T11:05:37Z midow: hello, im learning scheme and i have a question: '(+ 1 2) represents a list (+ 1 2). but in that list, what is +? it's not a string, it's not a character... so what is it? 2021-03-17T11:06:28Z dpk: a symbol 2021-03-17T11:06:30Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-17T11:07:05Z iv4nshm4k0v: ... Which is to say, (symbol? '+) is #t. 2021-03-17T11:07:27Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-17T11:07:33Z dpk: basically like a string, but checking if two symbols are the same is a lot quicker for magic reasons 2021-03-17T11:08:06Z midow: so it's like a string? because i had assumed that it was like... the representation of the sum operation, like a pointer to a function 2021-03-17T11:09:00Z iv4nshm4k0v: midow: '+ is a name of said function; to put the function proper into a list you'd need, say, (list + 1 2) . 2021-03-17T11:09:25Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-03-17T11:09:37Z dpk: yes, the *symbol* + has no meaning on its own. but when it's in a context where it's evaluated, it's looked up what function (or variable) is under that name, and pulls out the + procedure 2021-03-17T11:10:04Z midow: well all of this is a bit too advanced to me 2021-03-17T11:10:18Z wasamasa: + is an identifier, just like x inside an equation 2021-03-17T11:10:22Z midow: dpk: if you have a list (+ 1 2), can you somehow take the + and use it to add two numbers? 2021-03-17T11:10:27Z wasamasa: in mathematics you'd call x a symbol 2021-03-17T11:10:32Z iv4nshm4k0v: Functions can have more than one name; like: (define plus +) . There's no standard way to look up the value associated in a symbol in any context (current, other), though. 2021-03-17T11:10:34Z dpk: you can call eval 2021-03-17T11:10:40Z dpk: (eval '(+ 1 2)) 2021-03-17T11:10:40Z wasamasa: and you do the same in lisp 2021-03-17T11:11:06Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T11:12:15Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-17T11:12:17Z wasamasa: except lisp goes further and also considers + a symbol (commonly bound to a procedure to add numbers) 2021-03-17T11:12:28Z dpk: midow: what programming languages are you familiar with? maybe we can supply a helpful comparison 2021-03-17T11:12:58Z midow: a comparison with python or javascript would be neat 2021-03-17T11:13:05Z iv4nshm4k0v: dpk: IIRC, one-argument eval is not in R5RS; did the later standards change that? 2021-03-17T11:13:11Z wasamasa: neither expose identifiers to the programmer 2021-03-17T11:13:55Z wasamasa: neither expose the AST as a plain old data structure 2021-03-17T11:14:58Z dpk: so, numbers in JavaScript have this method toString 2021-03-17T11:15:13Z dpk: the name of this method in JavaScript is the string 'toString' 2021-03-17T11:15:28Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T11:15:31Z dpk: you can get the method itself without calling it by doing (1)['toString'] 2021-03-17T11:16:03Z dpk: that's like what happens when you put + somewhere other than the first element in a list/procedure call expression in Scheme. it gets the + procedure without calling it 2021-03-17T11:16:37Z dpk: but in JavaScript, you can also tell it to call that method: 2021-03-17T11:16:38Z wasamasa: there's been a recent addition of symbols to JS though which corresponds to uninterned symbols in lisp 2021-03-17T11:17:15Z dpk: (1)['toString'](); — note, usually spelt (1).toString(), but the two are equivalent in JS 2021-03-17T11:17:50Z dpk: that's like what happens when you put + as the first element in a call expression (+ ...) — it actually calls the procedure instead of just giving you it as a value 2021-03-17T11:17:54Z midow: dpk: to draw a comparison with imperative languages, what I had assumed was that (+ 1 2) was equivalent to sum(1, 2) and '(+ 1 2) was equivalent to [sum, 1, 2] 2021-03-17T11:18:13Z wasamasa: well, no 2021-03-17T11:18:24Z wasamasa: + stays + 2021-03-17T11:18:42Z wasamasa: it just happens to be bound to a procedure 2021-03-17T11:18:51Z dpk: '+ itself, the symbol, is as meaningless on its own as the string 'toString' in JavaScript. it gets looked up in Scheme when you evaluate it, and in JavaScript when you use the . or [] syntax 2021-03-17T11:18:56Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-17T11:19:01Z dpk: midow: is that helpful? 2021-03-17T11:19:09Z midow: yes it is 2021-03-17T11:19:56Z wasamasa: + in general is not the best example to use because of its status as operator syntax in ALGOL-like language 2021-03-17T11:20:33Z iv4nshm4k0v: midow: (+ 1 2) is equivalent to sum (1, 2), while '(+ 1 2) is roughly equivalent to "sum (1, 2)". In interpreted languages, there's generally some form of 'eval' procedure that takes '(+ 1 2) or "sum (1, 2)" (or { sum 1 2 }, etc.) and, well, evaluates it. 2021-03-17T11:20:40Z wasamasa: (list 1 2) vs '(list 1 2) is like list(1, 2) vs [:list 1 2] in ruby 2021-03-17T11:20:54Z dpk: iv4nshm4k0v: oh, i didn't know that. shows how long since i used eval 2021-03-17T11:21:11Z wasamasa: [:list, 1, 2] even 2021-03-17T11:21:34Z wasamasa: ruby has sort of an edge by offering keywords which you can think of as a shallow quoting syntax 2021-03-17T11:21:56Z dpk: i was thinking yesterday what would happen if i asked M N-W to add fexprs to SRFI 211. whether i would be able to hear the consternation in Augsburg here in Berlin (the other side of Germany) 2021-03-17T11:22:15Z dpk: wasamasa: well, in Ruby you can even do 1.send(:+, 2) 2021-03-17T11:22:21Z wasamasa: you could 2021-03-17T11:22:26Z dpk: Smalltalk influence there 2021-03-17T11:23:03Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-17T11:23:39Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T11:23:59Z dpk: i've forgotten how you get the :+ method definition from the 1 object, but there's a way to do it … 2021-03-17T11:24:17Z dpk: ah, 1.method(:+) 2021-03-17T11:24:32Z dpk: e.g. 1.method(:+).call(2) 2021-03-17T11:51:44Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-17T11:57:46Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:12:50Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:13:00Z lockywolf: Is anyone here familiar with making program images? 2021-03-17T12:14:01Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:14:43Z lockywolf: The scsh 0.7 has this strange behaviour that the dependencies must be in their final locations in the file system, before the final image can be built. 2021-03-17T12:14:59Z lockywolf: This makes it hard to make a package. 2021-03-17T12:15:15Z lockywolf: Does anybody have an idea how to fix this? 2021-03-17T12:16:18Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:17:48Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T12:18:34Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:24:51Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf: ISTR that Scheme48 had some sort of ,translate mechanism; perhaps Scsh also has one? 2021-03-17T12:28:19Z lockywolf: 0.7 is using the same scheme48 1.9.2 2021-03-17T12:33:38Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf: Actually, it seems that Scheme48 handles that in Makefile.in , install-no-doc target (e. g., http://sources.debian.org/src/scheme48/1.9.2-2/Makefile.in .) 2021-03-17T12:37:42Z lockywolf: https://github.com/scheme/scsh/commit/114432435e4eadd54334df6b37fcae505079b49f 2021-03-17T12:37:55Z lockywolf: I'm facing this thing right now. 2021-03-17T12:38:12Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:38:25Z Uter: James Johnathan Taylor is part black you stupid Scandinavian women...he fucked you and told all his friends... 2021-03-17T12:38:37Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T12:39:38Z lockywolf: the build-usual-image from Scheme48 seems to be doing something smarter than build-image.sh from scsh's Makefile.in 2021-03-17T12:39:49Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:40:10Z Uter: Marx while you were monitoring me Krunal Khatri was fucking white girls. 2021-03-17T12:40:23Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T12:40:51Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T12:44:31Z amirouche2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-17T12:47:05Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:49:02Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:52:06Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:52:25Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:52:51Z Uter: Kayla Layla whatever. He is part black and he betrays people. 2021-03-17T12:53:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:53:17Z Uter: Heidi or whatever 2021-03-17T12:53:34Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T12:53:49Z iv4nshm4k0v quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T12:55:12Z iv4nshm4k0v joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:57:05Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T12:57:08Z iv4nshm4k0v: Perhaps it's time for someone to MODE #scheme +q *!*@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.70.124.161.118 ? 2021-03-17T12:57:17Z Uter: Aileen 2021-03-17T12:57:18Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T12:57:22Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T12:57:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T13:01:22Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T13:01:33Z Uter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4kndlRICu4 2021-03-17T13:01:40Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T13:11:43Z pankajsg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T13:11:58Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-17T13:13:26Z nilgeisw joined #scheme 2021-03-17T13:14:58Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T13:15:05Z Uter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYJ2w82WifU 2021-03-17T13:15:13Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T13:19:49Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-17T13:24:58Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T13:25:47Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-17T13:32:16Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-17T13:35:21Z oldf8l is now known as f8l 2021-03-17T13:37:10Z shawnw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T13:37:22Z lloda` left #scheme 2021-03-17T13:37:23Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T13:38:27Z lloda joined #scheme 2021-03-17T13:50:19Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T13:50:54Z Uter: You better get checked for HIV 2021-03-17T13:50:58Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T13:58:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T14:03:25Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-17T14:06:38Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T14:09:20Z partyclicker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T14:09:29Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-17T14:12:00Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T14:17:18Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T14:17:34Z midow quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-17T14:17:51Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-17T14:20:56Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-17T14:35:09Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-17T14:45:44Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T14:45:59Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T14:51:06Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T14:52:17Z Uter: The KKK was monitoring me the entire time in Louisiana. I am explaining that they don't like colored people going for the white girls. 2021-03-17T14:53:11Z Uter: It might be different in other states but I am explaining to you what they were doing to me. I am not dictating. 2021-03-17T14:53:18Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T14:58:09Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T14:59:00Z Uter: I am confused on the classification of the different types of Indians. They might be considered colored also. 2021-03-17T14:59:14Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T14:59:25Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:00:43Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:06:18Z dpk: who’s in charge here? i.e. who has ops and can ban this Geschwurbler? 2021-03-17T15:07:14Z gwatt: Zipheir and Riastradh are the two I know 2021-03-17T15:07:50Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T15:09:09Z rj_ joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:11:48Z wasamasa: lol, haven't heard that word in a long time 2021-03-17T15:11:54Z wasamasa: rudybot: schwurbeln 2021-03-17T15:11:55Z rudybot: wasamasa: error: schwurbeln: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 2021-03-17T15:12:56Z dpk: wasamasa: it has become unfortunately relevant in corona times 2021-03-17T15:25:59Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:28:38Z Uter joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:28:47Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:29:19Z Uter: The world hasn't changed...still a nigger... 2021-03-17T15:29:27Z Uter quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T15:31:30Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T15:33:09Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:37:02Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zipheir 2021-03-17T15:37:44Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:37:54Z Zipheir: Too late. 2021-03-17T15:37:58Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T15:38:02Z ChanServ has set mode -o Zipheir 2021-03-17T15:40:28Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: For MODE +q ? 2021-03-17T15:40:45Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's next. 2021-03-17T15:41:42Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zipheir 2021-03-17T15:42:49Z Zipheir has set mode +b *!*467ca176@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.70.124.161.118 2021-03-17T15:43:02Z iv4nshm4k0v: Given that this abuser's MO is to QUIT shortly, I'd say KICK would be useless anyway. 2021-03-17T15:44:27Z Zipheir: I just woke up. It always seems like the spammers are on when I'm asleep. Hopefully that does it. 2021-03-17T15:44:33Z ChanServ has set mode -o Zipheir 2021-03-17T15:45:36Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:46:41Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T15:47:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:49:28Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T15:49:47Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:50:24Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T15:55:29Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-17T15:58:58Z Zipheir: 'Geschwurbler' reminds me of 'Meckerfritze', I think the word is. 2021-03-17T16:05:47Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T16:06:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T16:09:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:10:43Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-17T16:11:28Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:27:09Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-17T16:27:30Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-17T16:28:38Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T16:31:09Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T16:45:31Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-17T16:55:38Z amirouche: where is the srfi-167 / 168 feedback ? 2021-03-17T16:55:39Z amirouche: :) 2021-03-17T16:55:42Z amirouche: wasamasa: ^ 2021-03-17T16:55:50Z amirouche: possibly ranty. 2021-03-17T16:56:05Z wasamasa: it's been published: https://emacsninja.com/posts/on-fungi-and-data-stores.html 2021-03-17T16:56:31Z amirouche: tx 2021-03-17T16:56:37Z amirouche take a deep breath 2021-03-17T17:00:52Z corpix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T17:01:13Z corpix joined #scheme 2021-03-17T17:03:29Z amirouche: great! 2021-03-17T17:04:23Z amirouche: I mean I know all that is written about srfi-167 / 168 (and learned about mushrooms) 2021-03-17T17:04:47Z amirouche: Also thanks for linking to pre-srfi, scheme-live, snow, and akku 2021-03-17T17:05:15Z amirouche: by the way, there is less chance I delete scheme-live/live repository. 2021-03-17T17:07:45Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-17T17:14:59Z wasamasa: ok, cool 2021-03-17T17:18:57Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:28:44Z mario-goulart: wasamasa: maybe I'm missing something obvious, but what about a sexp db? :-) 2021-03-17T17:29:18Z wasamasa: funny suggestion for a scheme that truncates its own stacktraces and produces broken sexps 2021-03-17T17:30:03Z wasamasa: I've been bitten a bunch of times by read/print for that purpose 2021-03-17T17:30:06Z mario-goulart: Uh, what? :-) 2021-03-17T17:30:30Z wasamasa: if you run into an error in csi and the lines are too long, they get truncated 2021-03-17T17:30:50Z wasamasa: so if a line has an open string and the end of string has been cut off, you get broken syntax highlighting in emacs 2021-03-17T17:31:42Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:33:06Z wasamasa: you have to be mindful of rebinding all the print parameters for serialization to not lose information 2021-03-17T17:34:38Z mario-goulart: I don't get it. csi truncates lines not to flood your terminal when it prints a large data structure, but I don't see how that relates to the problem in question. 2021-03-17T17:35:32Z wasamasa: my point is that s-expressions are not as bullet-proof of a serialization format as json 2021-03-17T17:37:33Z mario-goulart: How so? 2021-03-17T17:37:59Z wasamasa: I just explained it 2021-03-17T17:38:17Z mario-goulart: Ok. 2021-03-17T17:38:22Z wasamasa: nobody in their mind would consider truncating the output of a yaml or json serialization 2021-03-17T17:38:34Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T17:38:48Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T17:39:05Z wasamasa: but for s-expressions this seems to be acceptable for some reason 2021-03-17T17:40:21Z mario-goulart: Would you have a small code snippet to illustrate the problem? 2021-03-17T17:40:39Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T17:42:30Z wasamasa: https://github.com/quelpa/quelpa/blob/ec61039dfd50967ca545cb955bf1dd349682dcf3/quelpa.el#L1681 2021-03-17T17:45:37Z wasamasa: it wasn't fun to discover that deeper elements of a sexp were just replaced with ... 2021-03-17T17:46:57Z mario-goulart: Is it an elisp issue? 2021-03-17T17:47:07Z wasamasa: it's an issue in anything with print parameters like that 2021-03-17T17:49:12Z wasamasa: considering the csi print parameters for call traces aren't even customizable, ugh 2021-03-17T17:50:37Z mario-goulart: Sorry, I'm terrible at reading subliminal messages. I'm giving up. 2021-03-17T17:55:58Z wasamasa: to summarize: I don't believe s-expressions to be a good serialization format 2021-03-17T17:56:15Z wasamasa: it can work, but less reliably than actuam formats designed for that purpose 2021-03-17T17:56:17Z wasamasa: *actual 2021-03-17T17:57:50Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T18:02:10Z Zipheir: A function interface is a language, though how expressive a language it is depends. 2021-03-17T18:02:54Z wasamasa: the lack of consensus what a sexp is across dialects and implementations is a little bothersome 2021-03-17T18:03:11Z wasamasa: you could probably develop a reader supporting a useful subset or an encompassing superset 2021-03-17T18:03:31Z wasamasa: and make a matching printer 2021-03-17T18:04:04Z Zipheir: (Thinking out loud while reading the blog post above, sorry.) 2021-03-17T18:04:09Z wasamasa: oh :D 2021-03-17T18:04:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:05:06Z Zipheir: "The SRFI process in general has accelerated in the last few years due to R7RS-large making heavy use of it for its dockets. ... I believe this to be an abuse of the standardization process, instead there should be experimentation on a decoupled platform such as Snow or Akku." 2021-03-17T18:06:20Z Zipheir: I like this point. I believe that the saga of 167 and 168 is, in part, a story about moving too quickly to standardization. 2021-03-17T18:07:14Z wasamasa: there should be at least one person on #chicken who got snow working for their purposes, but I haven't seem them there in a long time 2021-03-17T18:07:21Z wasamasa: I know that it works for chibi 2021-03-17T18:07:26Z wasamasa: I've seen kawa mention it 2021-03-17T18:07:50Z wasamasa: any other implementations, ideally with packages that were tested on them? 2021-03-17T18:07:50Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T18:09:02Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T18:10:59Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:11:50Z amirouche: too quickly: true, because there is no prior art. 2021-03-17T18:14:14Z wasamasa: in the case of something like a lightweight sqlite interface, indeed, there's a bunch of prior art to look at and compare 2021-03-17T18:15:31Z Zipheir: amirouche: In the sense that many SRFIs have had one or two users, at most, and they don't acquire many users during the SRFI process. 2021-03-17T18:15:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T18:18:23Z Zipheir: It's worth reviewing the Great Quux's thoughts about library standardization https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw6TaiXzHAE 2021-03-17T18:19:47Z Zipheir: In a nutshell, "standardize things that have become commonly used". 2021-03-17T18:23:57Z Zipheir: For this reason, I'm growing more reluctant to try to SRFIize anything I've done which hasn't seen any other users. 2021-03-17T18:26:33Z nullx002 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:33:49Z iv4nshm4k0v: I gather the standardization process may benefit from a separate "drafts" track; like Internet RFCs do now generally start as Internet / IETF drafts. 2021-03-17T18:35:06Z wasamasa: hm, possibly 2021-03-17T18:35:24Z wasamasa: maybe in combination with snow/akku for testing out these drafts and gathering feedback 2021-03-17T18:35:46Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T18:36:00Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:36:25Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:36:49Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: I agree. It seems like the 60/90-days-then-finalized-forever track was good for mature designs. 2021-03-17T18:37:45Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T18:38:25Z Zipheir: But we're increasingly seeing SRFIs that I'd describe as raw, or at least unused. 2021-03-17T18:38:53Z wasamasa: it's not even that at times, some just look like there's only going to be a single implementation of them 2021-03-17T18:39:01Z wasamasa: because they describe a behavior of that particular implementation 2021-03-17T18:40:04Z Zipheir: (Finalization doesn't necessarily mean a mess has been turned into a mature library; it may just be a frozen, now-unfixable mess.) 2021-03-17T18:40:25Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Any examples, in particular? 2021-03-17T18:40:49Z wasamasa: the rapid scheme/unsyntax person published some 2021-03-17T18:41:22Z Zipheir: Oh, MNW. 2021-03-17T18:41:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:41:45Z wasamasa: it's cool that there's a hope of having fancy macro systems elsewhere, but I doubt it will happen 2021-03-17T18:42:36Z wasamasa: like, look at srfi-213 2021-03-17T18:43:43Z wasamasa: chez did it, unsyntax adapted it, but the feature looks about as easy to get right as object-become! 2021-03-17T18:44:26Z Zipheir: It does seem to be described well enough to be a helpful document for implementers. 2021-03-17T18:44:40Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-17T18:46:02Z Zipheir: And if Chez already implements it, that's a plus from the perspective of having some examples "in the wild"; that's something a lot of SRFIs lack. 2021-03-17T18:46:33Z nullx002 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:46:33Z wklew quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-17T18:48:33Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T18:49:36Z _apg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T18:50:59Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:51:17Z wasamasa: true 2021-03-17T18:52:49Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:53:00Z Zipheir: Examples of the kind of problems I see are like SRFI 196 (which I worked on) and SRFI 165. They didn't have any users when they when they were finalized, and I don't know if they have any users beyond the implementers now. 2021-03-17T18:54:19Z Zipheir: Without feedback from people who use and want to continue to use a library, I find it difficult to make decisions about what that language should look like. It's working in a vacuum. 2021-03-17T18:55:19Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:55:57Z amirouche1: Not necessarly in a vacuum. It is also called the 'long now'. 2021-03-17T18:56:03Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-17T18:56:09Z Zipheir: It's not a serious issue except when the result is going to be frozen forever. 2021-03-17T18:56:35Z amirouche1: it is not frozen forever, since they can be new SRFI that add stuff? 2021-03-17T18:56:46Z amirouche1: they can be replaced too. 2021-03-17T18:56:51Z Zipheir: True. 2021-03-17T18:57:57Z Zipheir: But the ones incorporated into R7RS-large will indeed be frozen. Unless there's some versioning system for R7 libraries I'm not aware of. 2021-03-17T18:59:11Z amirouche1: Zipheir: are you familiar with the 'long now project'? 2021-03-17T18:59:27Z Zipheir: Nope. 2021-03-17T18:59:55Z amirouche1: My favorite piece about the subject is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Letters_of_Utrecht 2021-03-17T19:00:47Z amirouche1: it is like a live and real and human made passing between generations. 2021-03-17T19:01:09Z amirouche1: unlike an archive, it has a daily purpose. 2021-03-17T19:02:07Z Zipheir: I like that idea. 2021-03-17T19:02:35Z amirouche1: bbl 2021-03-17T19:07:21Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-17T19:23:51Z amirouche1: Unlike most books, it is a collective work. 2021-03-17T19:25:31Z opFez joined #scheme 2021-03-17T19:25:44Z opFez: good evening 2021-03-17T19:25:54Z amirouche1: o/ 2021-03-17T19:27:28Z opFez: i've been writing some scheme as of late, since i got tired of C's many annoyances. it really is a pleasure to work with (and better than CL imo) 2021-03-17T19:30:29Z drakonis quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-17T19:31:45Z opFez: actually, one thing that kind of bother me is how little the compiler actually does to catch errors. i'm using CHICKEN. are there any other implementations that do more compile-time type/other checking? 2021-03-17T19:31:50Z wasamasa: Zipheir: honestly, there's few SRFIs I'm looking forward to try out and use, nstore was the exception 2021-03-17T19:31:57Z wasamasa: Zipheir: because I had a usecase for it 2021-03-17T19:32:18Z mario-goulart: opFez: which CHICKEN version are you using? 2021-03-17T19:32:23Z xelxebar quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-17T19:32:48Z drakonis joined #scheme 2021-03-17T19:32:53Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-03-17T19:34:18Z opFez: mario-goulart: 5.2.0 2021-03-17T19:34:30Z wasamasa: I find that csc sometimes overdoes it 2021-03-17T19:34:43Z wasamasa: getting dynamic imports working was fiddly 2021-03-17T19:34:49Z mario-goulart: opFez: ok. Thanks. Do you use modules? 2021-03-17T19:35:23Z opFez: mario-goulart: i don't think i know what those are. when i do (import (srfi-1)) is that modules? 2021-03-17T19:36:26Z mario-goulart: opFez: I mean to ask if you wrap your own code into module declarations, like (module foo () (my-code ...)). 2021-03-17T19:36:40Z Zipheir: opFez: Dynamic typing means the compiler has a lot less information to work with. 2021-03-17T19:36:58Z opFez: mario-goulart: ah, i should be doing that, yeah. thanks for the heads-up! 2021-03-17T19:37:16Z wasamasa: you can use `csc -m foo` 2021-03-17T19:37:30Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T19:37:32Z opFez: Zipheir: yeah, but i believe SBCL does a lot of type inference at compile time 2021-03-17T19:37:32Z wasamasa: that will generate a minimal module declaration 2021-03-17T19:37:38Z mario-goulart: opFez: yeah, the compiler is much more useful with modules. 2021-03-17T19:38:21Z Zipheir: opFez: Some Scheme do more inference than other, but you'll always need to supply annotations. 2021-03-17T19:38:26Z Zipheir: s/other/others/ 2021-03-17T19:39:19Z Zipheir: Proving types for even small CL or Scheme expressions is quite hard (check out the Little Prover). 2021-03-17T19:40:09Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:40:23Z opFez: Zipheir: sounds interesting. one thing i do like about CHICKEN's system though, is the optional function type signatures. those make it a bit better. 2021-03-17T19:41:08Z amirouche1: what kind of program are you building ? 2021-03-17T19:41:34Z amirouche1: opFez: ^ 2021-03-17T19:41:38Z Zipheir: Optional arguments do make reasoning about types even harder. 2021-03-17T19:41:45Z opFez: amirouche1: i've been making a simple rogue clone as of late. 2021-03-17T19:41:47Z mario-goulart: opFez: beware that the compiler doesn't perform any check on those. 2021-03-17T19:42:09Z opFez: mario-goulart: the type signatures? 2021-03-17T19:42:20Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T19:43:26Z mario-goulart: opFez: I mean keyword parameters speecifically. E.g., (define (foo #!key bar) bar). If you call (foo quux: 42) they compiler won't emit any warning. 2021-03-17T19:44:04Z opFez: mario-goulart: i see, good to know. 2021-03-17T19:44:29Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:46:54Z mario-goulart: opFez: not sure if you are aware, but there's also #chicken here in Freenode. 2021-03-17T19:47:50Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T19:48:04Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:48:11Z opFez: mario-goulart: yes, i'm sorry for making this discussion center around chicken specifically. my intention was to discuss compile-time checking across scheme implementations. 2021-03-17T19:48:37Z mario-goulart: opFez: no worries at all. 2021-03-17T19:49:00Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T19:49:06Z amirouche1: opFez: the answer to compile time checking is: it depends. On my side, I do not find it missing, but I do not know better. 2021-03-17T19:49:22Z wasamasa: kawa is pretty good at compile-time checking 2021-03-17T19:49:27Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:49:31Z wasamasa: it sometimes feels excessive though and rejects perfectly fine code 2021-03-17T19:50:14Z wasamasa: like when I wrote a program importing srfi-13, srfi-69 and srfi-95, that errored out because of import redefinitions 2021-03-17T19:51:22Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T19:51:44Z opFez: wasamasa: sounds a bit opinionated, but i think i'll give it a try. 2021-03-17T19:51:58Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T19:52:01Z wasamasa: it also reports lots of warnings when doing java interop with shorthands 2021-03-17T19:52:10Z wasamasa: so I have to write a bit more code to avoid reflections 2021-03-17T19:52:31Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T19:52:56Z Zipheir: The dreaded experience with a Scheme program is when you load a bunch of files, evaluate a meaningful expression, and get "". 2021-03-17T19:53:04Z wasamasa: ah 2021-03-17T19:53:14Z wasamasa: I had that when I wrote a main function and forgot to call it 2021-03-17T19:53:38Z opFez: a great experience to be had, for sure 2021-03-17T19:53:40Z amirouche1: or you get nothing at all like 2021-03-17T19:53:42Z amirouche1: > 2021-03-17T19:53:48Z Zipheir: That, too. 2021-03-17T19:54:29Z Zipheir: (Of course, somewhere down there is a side-effecting procedure that's accidentally being used as a value, or something.) 2021-03-17T19:54:45Z Zipheir: s/used as a/called for a/ 2021-03-17T20:02:04Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T20:12:38Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:13:01Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T20:13:27Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T20:17:39Z Zipheir: opFez: One technique you can use to catch errors is to use typechecks in your procedures, e.g. with SRFI 145's assume: (assume (string? s)) 2021-03-17T20:18:21Z Zipheir: Many SRFIs and other libraries (depending on the Scheme and its implementer's aesthetics) use such checks. 2021-03-17T20:18:23Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:21:33Z opFez: Zipheir: sounds like just a way for a function to fail earlier, but i guess it would have clearer error messages. does it actually do anything at compile-time? 2021-03-17T20:23:30Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T20:24:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T20:24:15Z Zipheir: opFez: No, how could it? 2021-03-17T20:24:57Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-17T20:25:07Z Zipheir: Compile-time typing = static typing. 2021-03-17T20:26:08Z opFez: Zipheir: my bad, i don't know much about scheme yet. i thought you could maybe do something with macros to make it do it compile time, but i don't really know how that stuff works yet. 2021-03-17T20:26:23Z Zipheir: opFez: Even more importantly, it might be a way to make sure a function fails, period. The hardest errors to catch are ones which don't cause errors. 2021-03-17T20:27:09Z opFez: Zipheir: that's true. thanks for the suggestion! 2021-03-17T20:27:56Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T20:28:21Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T20:29:28Z Zipheir: opFez: I hope you enjoy Scheme. You'll probably pick it up quickly. Feel free to ask questions here. 2021-03-17T20:30:00Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-17T20:31:43Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-17T20:33:47Z opFez: Zipheir: i'm enjoying it a lot currently. thanks for the warm welcome :) 2021-03-17T20:39:40Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T20:40:05Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T20:45:00Z wasamasa: remember this wordcount thing on hackernews 2021-03-17T20:45:32Z wasamasa: I've changed my portable scheme version to use srfi-130, fired up chibi and it's still not done 2021-03-17T20:45:54Z wasamasa: might take an actual minute to count the word frequencies in kjvbible.txt 2021-03-17T20:46:19Z ecraven: maybe try some faster Scheme ;) 2021-03-17T20:46:35Z wasamasa: it's an improvement, previously it didn't know about srfi-13 2021-03-17T20:47:02Z wasamasa: chibi-scheme simple.scm < kjvbible.txt 290.22s user 0.26s system 99% cpu 4:51.32 total 2021-03-17T20:49:02Z wasamasa: gosh simple.scm < kjvbible.txt 54.66s user 0.47s system 130% cpu 42.215 total 2021-03-17T20:50:38Z wasamasa: kawa simple.scm < kjvbible.txt 8.75s user 0.41s system 165% cpu 5.547 total 2021-03-17T20:51:02Z wasamasa: meanwhile python takes less than a second 2021-03-17T20:56:10Z Zipheir: Hmm, are hash-tables involved? We have established before that Python has much better hash-table performance than many Schemes. 2021-03-17T20:56:29Z wasamasa: yes 2021-03-17T20:57:47Z wasamasa: if I compile with csc, I get anywhere close to python, but still 2021-03-17T20:57:50Z _apg joined #scheme 2021-03-17T20:58:34Z wasamasa: txr beats it :D 2021-03-17T20:58:52Z wasamasa: an interpreted lisp for text munging beating a scheme compiler 2021-03-17T20:59:07Z wasamasa: must be hash tables 2021-03-17T21:02:09Z gwatt: you can usually help the hashtable performance by allocating a huge amount up-front 2021-03-17T21:03:48Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-17T21:04:50Z drakonis left #scheme 2021-03-17T21:07:28Z rj_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:08:02Z wasamasa: I did that with csc and got a heap allocation error, lol 2021-03-17T21:08:05Z wasamasa: first time I see that 2021-03-17T21:09:36Z wasamasa: maybe I'm doing this pre-allocation thing wrong 2021-03-17T21:09:41Z wasamasa: but it didn't help 2021-03-17T21:11:14Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-17T21:11:38Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T21:12:16Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:13:34Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-17T21:17:45Z gwatt: oh jeez 2021-03-17T21:19:18Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-17T21:24:28Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T21:24:48Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-17T21:30:10Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T21:32:18Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T21:33:16Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-17T21:37:08Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-17T21:38:16Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-17T21:39:09Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-17T21:39:55Z opFez quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-03-17T21:47:01Z amirouche1: reading is quite fast too 2021-03-17T21:47:06Z amirouche1: with cpython 2021-03-17T21:57:58Z gwatt: wasamasa: would you share your word counter? 2021-03-17T21:58:38Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2Tfj 2021-03-17T21:58:56Z wasamasa: works with chibi, kawa, gauche, CHICKEN (after installing the r7rs and srfi-95 eggs) 2021-03-17T21:59:18Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:01:46Z Zipheir: wasamasa: PSA: The srfi-95 egg is unmaintained, but I've picked up maintenance srfi-132, which provides most of the same stuff. 2021-03-17T22:01:53Z wasamasa: lol 2021-03-17T22:02:02Z wasamasa: this SRFI stuff sure is a big mess of numbers 2021-03-17T22:02:22Z wasamasa: imagine if anyone did import pep-8 in python 2021-03-17T22:02:25Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Well, you can have the R7RS-large name of SRFI 132, which is (scheme sort) 2021-03-17T22:03:19Z wasamasa: at which point do we need decision charts for topics and a set of recommended SRFIs in decreasing order of relevance 2021-03-17T22:03:22Z Zipheir: It's still called 'srfi-132' in the egg, because I'm not sure if '(scheme sort)' would wreak havoc with CHICKEN's module naming system. 2021-03-17T22:03:56Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-03-17T22:04:45Z Zipheir: It would be nice if SRFIs would provide a catchy library name, as well as a title. 2021-03-17T22:05:46Z wasamasa: the ruby effect 2021-03-17T22:21:38Z supercoven_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:24:54Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-17T22:28:04Z jcowan: There are two reasons I don't worry too much about SRFI's being frozen. For one thing, only the text is frozen; a new SRFI can always be introduced. For another, we can always supersede a SRFI with a different SRFI in a later edition of R7RS-large, as long as it's reasonably upward compatible. For a third, we have excellent designers and implementers. And finally, we can do R8RS when we need to. 2021-03-17T22:28:11Z jcowan: okay, four reasons 2021-03-17T22:30:44Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-17T22:32:29Z Zipheir: jcowan: What about those inducted into R7RS-large? 2021-03-17T22:34:11Z jcowan: Sorry, I got tangled up there. But there's finalizing a SRFI, finalizing an edition (which may involve small changes to a SRFI), finalizing the next edition (which may involve replacing a SRFI with a compatible equivalent), and finalizing R7RS. 2021-03-17T22:35:08Z jcowan: for example, if we voted SRFI 140 in (immutable strings) we could probably provide a compatibility library that supports SRFI 135. 2021-03-17T22:36:32Z jcowan: There is also selecting what will never go into an R7RS edition 2021-03-17T22:36:45Z jcowan: since I control the agenda (subject to an appeal) 2021-03-17T22:42:08Z Zipheir: I think some things which are now part of R7RS-large have eccentricities that may create their own backwards compatibility dilemmas. 2021-03-17T22:42:27Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-17T22:43:18Z Zipheir: For example, the SRFI 146/(scheme mapping) library has a number of odd design choices; some, like the way mapping-map works, aren't compatible with other (standardized) dictionary libraries. 2021-03-17T22:45:10Z Zipheir: (Scheme -map semantics are a headache to me. The Riastradh vector libraries map over indices and values, returning values, SRFI 69 maps over values only, SRFI 146 maps over both and returns both, etc. There's no agreement.) 2021-03-17T22:46:57Z Zipheir: So there's inconsistency between R7RS-large libraries that apparently can't be fixed, and which makes designing further R7 libraries difficult. 2021-03-17T22:47:47Z Zipheir: This is what Lassi calls "waterfall design", I guess. 2021-03-17T22:50:43Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T22:51:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T22:51:59Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:52:33Z Zipheir: jcowan: So I suppose that what I am suggesting, oh CCBW, is some pre-edition-vote process for identifying and fixing inconsistencies in the ballotted libraries. 2021-03-17T22:54:48Z jcowan: Design, then implement, then test and it's done, yes 2021-03-17T22:55:35Z jcowan: I'll try to make it clear when the ballots go out that finding such discrepancies is an important and valuable contribution. 2021-03-17T22:56:00Z Zipheir: Thanks. 2021-03-17T22:56:02Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-17T22:57:57Z Zipheir: It should be possible to fix design discrepencies, rather than just the options of "reject" or "ignore the problems". The SRFI PFN process isn't supposed to be used for such changes, though. 2021-03-17T22:58:31Z Zipheir: Eh, grammatical issues in the penultimate sentence. Oh well. 2021-03-17T22:59:31Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:00:26Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T23:00:57Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-03-17T23:01:58Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-17T23:04:20Z jcowan: Right, this goes beyond PFNs. As an example, we changed SRFI 101 to make everything start with "r" to avoid collisions. 2021-03-17T23:04:31Z jcowan: (for "random-access") 2021-03-17T23:12:13Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-17T23:14:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-17T23:19:08Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-17T23:21:13Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-17T23:23:46Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-17T23:25:13Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:34:49Z jcowan: As for the -map problem, IMO one of the weaknesses of Scheme is that you can't determine the calling protocol of a procedure, so it has to be fixed. That makes it impossible to layer SRFI 125 over Chicken's SRFI 69, because one argument to the hash funciton vs. two; 2021-03-17T23:39:14Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-17T23:56:23Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-17T23:59:24Z dpk: i recently switched from cursing the index argument given by vector-map (having forgotten it was there,so my code threw an error and it wasn’t immediately obvious why) to finding it quite useful, within the space of about fifteen minutes. (forgotten the exact situation, but could find it tomorrow if anyone were interested) 2021-03-18T00:01:28Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T00:01:32Z dpk: i think the index argument is pretty much a must have, even if most maps don’t use it, if there’s no lazy way to get it on all iterations by default (and you can’t get it correctly, lazily, and portably since you don’t necessarily know if your Scheme is going to map right to left or left to right or some other weird order) 2021-03-18T00:03:01Z dpk: by lazy I mean something like Python’s enumerable() or Ruby’s #each_with_index where you don’t have to cons a completely fresh array just to know the indexes of things, it’s just passed in as an argument to your iteration 2021-03-18T00:04:18Z dpk: the alternative, i guess, would be to guarantee a mapping order so that you could keep your own idx counter and update it with set! 2021-03-18T00:12:12Z Zipheir: Should map pass the list index, then? 2021-03-18T00:12:38Z Zipheir: AFAIK no one's ever suggested that, but it's interesting. 2021-03-18T00:13:33Z dpk: arguably it should, yes. i can see why it doesn’t, but there are cases where it would likely be handy 2021-03-18T00:14:00Z Zipheir: What I don't think is a good design for procedures calling themselves -map is getting the index/key as well as the value from the mapped procedure. 2021-03-18T00:14:21Z nilgeisw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T00:15:31Z Zipheir: e.g. if (vector-map (lambda (i v) (values 0 v)) vec) created a singleton vector for all vec. 2021-03-18T00:16:03Z Zipheir: AFAIK, only SRFI 146's mapping-map does that. 2021-03-18T00:16:15Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T00:17:06Z Zipheir: dpk: Most likely it doesn't since we don't often think of lists as subsets of Integer × [anything]. 2021-03-18T00:17:30Z dpk: i think the right thing, though, would have been to guarantee left-to-right mapping order on all types, and provide an enumerate combinator. given that (list) map has never provided that guarantee, though, it would be wrong for vector-map to do so, since Schemes which map right-to-left over lists would not be usable with the enumerate combinator 2021-03-18T00:18:25Z Zipheir: "enumerate combinator"? 2021-03-18T00:18:47Z dpk: which would be surprising and inconsistent in a worse (probably non-error-triggering) way than vector-map providing the extra index argument 2021-03-18T00:20:07Z dpk: (enumerate f) returns a procedure that takes the same arguments as f and forwards them to f with an extra one, being the number of times (starting from 0) the wrapped function has been called 2021-03-18T00:20:38Z dpk: there’s probably a better name for it 2021-03-18T00:21:25Z Zipheir: Huh, that's new to me. 2021-03-18T00:21:46Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-18T00:22:57Z Zipheir: But in the case of list mapping, what would that provide that (map f lis (iota (length lis))) wouldn't? 2021-03-18T00:24:09Z Zipheir: (Or the equivalent lazy version with streams or lseqs.) 2021-03-18T00:35:21Z jcowan: The advantage of not guaranteeing a map order is that you can do a parallel map under the covers. 2021-03-18T00:37:01Z Zipheir: Very true. 2021-03-18T00:37:50Z Zipheir: In any case, if you want order-dependent traversal, for-each is available. 2021-03-18T00:37:58Z Zipheir: And idioms, hopefully, at some point. 2021-03-18T00:58:51Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-18T01:10:04Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T01:11:01Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-18T01:16:21Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:19:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:24:35Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-18T01:26:47Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-18T01:26:55Z notzmv is now known as Guest94966 2021-03-18T01:28:48Z Guest94966 is now known as notzmv 2021-03-18T01:28:48Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T01:28:56Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 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2021-03-18T07:18:02Z amirouche1: hello scheme :) 2021-03-18T07:18:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-18T07:21:55Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-18T07:22:27Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:27:52Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-03-18T07:33:22Z flatwhatson quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T07:35:34Z flatwhatson joined #scheme 2021-03-18T07:36:34Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:38:42Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T07:38:54Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-03-18T07:43:51Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-18T07:44:00Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-18T07:51:13Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-18T07:52:42Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-18T07:57:42Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-18T08:01:48Z clacke: hi amirouche1 2021-03-18T08:02:10Z clacke: I've seen you contribute packages to multille Schemes 2021-03-18T08:02:29Z clacke: Do you have a favorite? 2021-03-18T08:02:44Z clacke: For packaging or for general use 2021-03-18T08:02:54Z clacke: multiple* 2021-03-18T08:07:34Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-18T08:10:11Z dpk: Zipheir: iota would cons a new list, enumerate wouldn’t 2021-03-18T08:11:00Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:24:33Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-18T08:31:13Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T08:39:24Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T08:46:06Z wasamasa: why does gauche not have string-ci=? in r7rs mode? 2021-03-18T08:46:13Z wasamasa: something is very strange here 2021-03-18T08:49:55Z wasamasa: oh, I forgot an import 2021-03-18T08:50:30Z wasamasa: it's funny because kawa couldn't tell 2021-03-18T08:55:19Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T09:03:52Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-18T09:19:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-18T09:23:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T09:28:02Z amirouche2 joined #scheme 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#scheme 2021-03-18T11:03:26Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-18T11:03:51Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-18T11:12:04Z lloda: guile has map-in-order 2021-03-18T11:12:12Z lloda: it is the same as map afaiu 2021-03-18T11:13:15Z amirouche2: clacke: complex question ^^' 2021-03-18T11:13:28Z amirouche2: I prefer Chez, so far, I want to investigate cyclone. 2021-03-18T11:14:06Z amirouche2: Regarding available packages, I prefer Guile but it is really tied to my application. Chicken also has a lot (more?) packages. 2021-03-18T11:16:45Z wasamasa: cyclone is very nice to study 2021-03-18T11:17:05Z wasamasa: but you'll most likely discover bugs if you decide to work with it 2021-03-18T11:18:05Z wasamasa: see https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/issues?q=author%3Awasamasa 2021-03-18T11:18:44Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-18T11:20:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-18T11:20:38Z amirouche2: ty for the heads up 2021-03-18T11:20:49Z amirouche2: the alternative is to try gambit. 2021-03-18T11:21:06Z amirouche2: but I am still confused about gambit's POSIX thread support wrt to multi-core. 2021-03-18T11:22:14Z wasamasa: hacking on it is a bit painful due to the bootstrapping split between runtime and compiler 2021-03-18T11:22:18Z wasamasa: but it's not too bad 2021-03-18T11:22:32Z wasamasa: it's small enough that you can figure out most things on your own 2021-03-18T11:23:50Z amirouche2: with gambit? 2021-03-18T11:24:44Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T11:24:51Z wasamasa: cyclone I mean 2021-03-18T11:25:04Z wasamasa: I didn't experiment with gambit so far, just took a brief look at gerbil 2021-03-18T11:25:30Z wasamasa: and some gambit source code doing advanced algorithms to beat the benchmarks 2021-03-18T11:38:57Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-18T11:39:36Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-18T11:51:54Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-18T11:52:21Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-18T11:59:51Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:03:36Z leb joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:03:54Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-18T12:07:59Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-18T12:09:13Z Kooda joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:23:37Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-18T12:24:30Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T12:30:43Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:32:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:33:32Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:34:36Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:42:16Z dpk: i'm looking at getting an ARM Mac. has anyone got experience and can say whether Gambit/Gerbil work on arm64 Mac OS yet? 2021-03-18T12:44:05Z dpk: https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/gambit-scheme has a green check next to 'Apple Silicon' (lol), which sounds encouraging 2021-03-18T12:44:26Z dTal: You mean the M1? 2021-03-18T12:44:36Z dTal: I think it has dynamic translation for x86 anyway 2021-03-18T12:45:01Z dTal: Although I'm not sure how that works and if it can be relied upon in a JIT situation 2021-03-18T12:45:06Z dpk: yeah, but that tends to not work well with things that are doing any kind of compilation, even not to machine code 2021-03-18T12:45:14Z dpk: (Emacs is known not to run well under Rosetta) 2021-03-18T12:45:44Z dTal: huh I didn't think Emacs was anything special... it does compilation? 2021-03-18T12:45:54Z dpk: Emacs Lisp is compiled to bytecode 2021-03-18T12:46:06Z dTal: Sure but then the bytecode is interpreted? 2021-03-18T12:46:26Z amirouche2: I read ARM (the company) has also something called 'M1', hence the `Apple Silicon`. 2021-03-18T12:46:36Z wasamasa: yes it is, but there's more to emacs than that 2021-03-18T12:46:40Z dpk: admittedly, it might be not because of the compilation that it doesn't run well, but rather because Emacs's relationship to the operating system is that of a backseat drive 2021-03-18T12:46:43Z dpk: *driver 2021-03-18T12:47:00Z wasamasa: at least the portable dumper should remove one of the main obstacles 2021-03-18T12:47:04Z wasamasa: GC would be another one 2021-03-18T12:47:15Z wasamasa: and other finnicky low-level details 2021-03-18T12:47:28Z dpk: OS: here, let me feed you events and you can deal with them asynchronously 2021-03-18T12:47:28Z dpk: Emacs: i'm going to take your events and pretend they're coming from a VT100 2021-03-18T12:48:18Z dpk: OS: here are some GUI widget libraries 2021-03-18T12:48:18Z dpk: Emacs: don't need that, reimplement everything from scratch on top of the click event 2021-03-18T12:48:19Z opFez joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:48:32Z wasamasa: yeah, its use of GUI toolkits is just wrong 2021-03-18T12:49:36Z dpk: in any case, the new Intel-to-ARM version of Rosetta is a technical marvel but it's known not to work with all applications 2021-03-18T12:51:25Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:52:23Z dpk: wasamasa: most amusing thing i found recently is that because Emacs wants to implement its own pull-down menus, it was using some accessibility APIs on Mac OS to simulate *two* mouse clicks on a menu when you opened it. but those accessibility APIs changed or started requiring user permission or sth, with the result that you had to manually double-click on menus on Mac OS to pull them down to redo what it was previously invisibly simulating 2021-03-18T12:52:35Z wasamasa: lol 2021-03-18T12:54:27Z leb quit 2021-03-18T12:54:50Z dpk: my favourite article on Emacs's internal backwardness is https://www.facebook.com/notes/daniel-colascione/buttery-smooth-emacs/10155313440066102/ 2021-03-18T12:55:38Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-18T12:56:59Z wasamasa: I just realized that https://doc.scheme.org/srfi/support/ is basically a more cumbersome variation of caniuse 2021-03-18T12:59:49Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-18T13:00:06Z wasamasa: given tagging, a search feature and presentation, you could end up with something like caniuse 2021-03-18T13:02:19Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-18T13:10:32Z wasamasa: a toolbox-like thing might be useful as well 2021-03-18T13:20:19Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-18T13:20:57Z amirouche2: yapluka! 2021-03-18T13:21:18Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-18T13:21:58Z amirouche2: repetitive jokes ahead.. 2021-03-18T13:22:33Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T13:34:51Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T13:56:39Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-18T14:10:16Z joast joined #scheme 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(lseq-map f seq (generator->lseq (make-range-generator 0))) is probably the most compact example, and doesn't require getting the length of `seq'. 2021-03-18T16:43:24Z hugh_marera left #scheme 2021-03-18T16:44:40Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T16:44:53Z Wezl: I basically just finished a project and randomly realized both my files are exactly 127 lines long 2021-03-18T16:45:09Z Zipheir: The stream version would be analogous, using (stream-first 0) to generate the infinite natural number stream. 2021-03-18T16:45:25Z Wezl: that's how I naturally break scheme up 2021-03-18T16:45:31Z Zipheir: Wezl: Funny, I *just* referenced SRFI 127. 2021-03-18T16:46:35Z Zipheir: dpk: Note that, since lseqs embed lists, that lseq-map example works with any list. 2021-03-18T16:47:06Z Zipheir: (And they don't cons up a massive list of numbers, of course.) 2021-03-18T16:48:17Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-18T16:52:08Z Zipheir: Wezl: Every one of your Scheme source files has to be 127 lines? 2021-03-18T16:52:45Z Wezl: no, it just naturally happened 2021-03-18T16:53:06Z Wezl: I guess it's more project specific 2021-03-18T16:53:55Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-18T16:54:43Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-18T16:54:57Z Zipheir: When you're working with a text editor with a 7-bit line counter, maybe. :) 2021-03-18T17:06:26Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-18T17:07:12Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-18T17:07:13Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-18T17:08:03Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-18T17:15:59Z iv4nshm4k0v: dpk: One particular feature of GUIs that I very much dislike is that there're text which is not text. For example, when writing documentation, it's often convenient to copy UI element labels from the running application into the document. Trivial for tty-based applications; much less so for GUI-based. That Emacs manages to avoid that, however weirdly, is a net win in my book. 2021-03-18T17:32:56Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-18T17:41:43Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T17:47:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-18T18:15:08Z amirouche2 is now known as amirouche 2021-03-18T18:16:11Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 210 seconds.) 2021-03-18T18:18:27Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-18T18:19:27Z amirouche: Zipheir: how is it called the formal thing with math science in it? 2021-03-18T18:19:28Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-18T18:20:07Z Zipheir: amirouche: I don't understand. What formal thing? 2021-03-18T18:20:09Z amirouche: I forgot the proper wording. The goal is to make sure people understand the thing I describe. 2021-03-18T18:21:43Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-18T18:21:51Z Zipheir: amirouche: Semantics? 2021-03-18T18:21:52Z amirouche: formal specification. 2021-03-18T18:22:17Z amirouche: maybe formal semantics. 2021-03-18T18:23:38Z Zipheir: amirouche: Yes. 2021-03-18T18:26:30Z Zipheir: amirouche: Check out Oleg's small formal semantics in SRFI 2 https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-2/srfi-2.html 2021-03-18T18:38:18Z littleme quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-18T18:38:35Z littleme joined #scheme 2021-03-18T18:41:23Z kaiwulf joined #scheme 2021-03-18T18:42:23Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T18:48:45Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-03-18T18:48:45Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-18T18:48:45Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-03-18T19:04:07Z siraben: Zipheir: now \*that's\* my type of SRFI :P 2021-03-18T19:05:30Z siraben: Heh, maybe I escaped too much there 2021-03-18T19:05:38Z siraben: test 2021-03-18T19:06:29Z Zipheir: Nope, it was readable. 2021-03-18T19:07:58Z amirouche: fwiw, I do not get it. 2021-03-18T19:08:58Z Zipheir: amirouche: SRFI 2? 2021-03-18T19:10:11Z amirouche: I know srfi-2, but I do not understand the formal semantics yet. 2021-03-18T19:10:16Z amirouche: Anyway, I need to go. 2021-03-18T19:10:16Z Noisytoot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T19:12:16Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-18T19:12:20Z siraben: amirouche: which part of the formal semantics do you wish to understand? 2021-03-18T19:14:44Z amirouche quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-18T19:18:26Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-18T19:57:19Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-18T19:58:05Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-18T20:10:52Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-18T20:11:25Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-03-18T20:11:30Z Guest57360 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-18T20:12:22Z `micro joined #scheme 2021-03-18T20:14:51Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-03-18T20:20:27Z rj_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T20:21:26Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T20:21:51Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-18T20:24:56Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-18T20:26:23Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-18T20:26:56Z amirouche: siraben: I ca not describe what I do not understand from srfi-2 formal semantics. Where are the definitions? 2021-03-18T20:34:21Z Zipheir: amirouche: Some of Oleg's notations refer to the Scheme semantics (e.g. `extend-env'), but, in general, you can think of eval[ ] as a function from Scheme forms to a higher-level language for describing what those forms mean. 2021-03-18T20:35:55Z amirouche: what does ext_claw_evnv mean? 2021-03-18T20:36:01Z Zipheir: amirouche: So, for instance, if I want to describe a set structure, the semantics might look like: [[(empty-set)]] = ø, [[(singleton x)]] = { [[x]] }, [[(union set1 set2)]] = [[set1]] ∪ [[set2]] 2021-03-18T20:37:16Z Zipheir: amirouche: It's a semantic function. 2021-03-18T20:37:58Z Zipheir: amirouche: It tells you how CLAWs extend an environment. 2021-03-18T20:38:15Z amirouche: it is defined later i see. 2021-03-18T20:38:43Z amirouche: is that notation standard? 2021-03-18T20:39:03Z Zipheir: Semi-standard, I'd say. 2021-03-18T20:39:38Z Zipheir: If you restrict the usual denotational notation to ASCII, it looks more or less like that. 2021-03-18T20:40:01Z amirouche: deno is related to nodejs rework? 2021-03-18T20:40:06Z Zipheir: The R7RS semantics are more typical (i.e. more greek and weird operators) 2021-03-18T20:40:19Z amirouche: forgo my comment. 2021-03-18T20:40:28Z amirouche: I will look at r7rs. 2021-03-18T20:40:51Z amirouche: http://rnrs.org/ :( 2021-03-18T20:41:09Z Zipheir: Weird. 2021-03-18T20:43:56Z amirouche: I skimmed through the last parts of r7rs.pdf 2021-03-18T20:44:02Z amirouche: indeed it is full of interesting stuff. 2021-03-18T20:44:36Z amirouche: I intend to use formal semantics to try to better describe okvslite, lexicographic packing and byteomatic packing. 2021-03-18T20:44:55Z amirouche: (there will be more text to spell check, that can only be a good thing ;) 2021-03-18T20:46:01Z Zipheir: There's a book that's recommended in SICP, Stoy's Denotational Semantics: The Scott-Strachey Approach to Programming Language Theory. It's, I guess, a critical reference on denotational semantics, since Strachey died before writing anything definitive on the subject. 2021-03-18T20:46:11Z Zipheir: Very readable book, I find. 2021-03-18T20:46:54Z amirouche: Zipheir: I am resonable person, but in your case I am also jealous! 2021-03-18T20:47:50Z Zipheir: (If anyone wants a copy, I might be able to help via PRIVMSG.) 2021-03-18T20:47:58Z amirouche: In fact, it is a compliment. Now, I know I know someone smarter than me. 2021-03-18T20:48:46Z Zipheir: amirouche: There's a lot about this stuff that I don't understand. I don't want you to worry. 2021-03-18T20:48:50Z amirouche: Something we do a lot in the industry, is code before modelisation and proper preparation, and I am in that mood. 2021-03-18T20:49:24Z amirouche: Zipheir: the jealous stuff or the book on denotational semantics? 2021-03-18T20:49:34Z Zipheir: amirouche: The book and the whole topic. 2021-03-18T20:49:39Z amirouche: hmm 2021-03-18T20:49:44Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T20:49:52Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-18T20:50:02Z Zipheir: I may have mentioned Conal Elliott's "Denotational Design" seminar before, but I really like it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmKYiUOEo2A 2021-03-18T20:50:23Z Zipheir: He shows how he uses these techniques to decide how to write an image manipulation library. 2021-03-18T20:50:46Z Zipheir: It's long, but I really like his approach and way of talking to the audience. 2021-03-18T20:50:51Z amirouche: Here is what I started to do: https://hyper.dev/Forward-ff48069e4ef14501ba1c3c94addce2c4.html 2021-03-18T20:51:20Z amirouche: I give math formula that explains the wording. 2021-03-18T20:51:39Z amirouche: It should work both ways in fact. 2021-03-18T20:51:55Z Zipheir: Looks like a good start! 2021-03-18T20:51:55Z amirouche: and it is incomplete 2021-03-18T20:52:34Z amirouche: and I do it all from memory of my high school math course ^^ 2021-03-18T20:52:46Z amirouche: more than 15 years old 2021-03-18T20:53:07Z amirouche: I even remember the latex stuff ^^ 2021-03-18T20:53:14Z Zipheir: I think this will make the OKVS stuff from the SRFI much clearer if you keep working on it. 2021-03-18T20:53:19Z amirouche: siraben: must be laughting ;) 2021-03-18T20:53:43Z amirouche: until we reach nstore.. nstore2 actually. 2021-03-18T20:53:43Z Zipheir: Heh, siraben's probably asleep. 2021-03-18T20:54:37Z amirouche: Also, I recognize, especially, in the vnstore (v = versioned) I have some expectation regarding the input data. 2021-03-18T20:55:22Z amirouche: so the algorithm is based on an heuristic such as: given a triple (person, age, n), n is not in seconds :] 2021-03-18T20:55:39Z amirouche: I mean n is not incremented ever seconds 2021-03-18T20:55:59Z Zipheir: Yeah, these are the kind of things I think are important to consider. What's the structure of the data? What laws does it satisfy? 2021-03-18T20:56:45Z amirouche: maybe you know better, but data comes in manifold form, and so far, I did not understood a benchmark I read about. 2021-03-18T20:57:06Z amirouche: so, I will fallback to empirical tests. 2021-03-18T20:57:11Z amirouche: instead of proofs. 2021-03-18T20:58:10Z amirouche: even the structure of the bytes, I learned the hard way, that it matters, in particular the order in which they are instered. Sorted order is always best. 2021-03-18T20:58:33Z amirouche: (it is writte in plain sight in wiredtiger documentation) 2021-03-18T20:59:20Z amirouche: (the problem is if the data is 3TB, you need at least 3TB to sort it...) 2021-03-18T21:00:13Z amirouche: anyway rich problem.. 2021-03-18T21:00:23Z amirouche: anyway rich people problem.. 2021-03-18T21:00:48Z amirouche: well no, not necessarly, wikidata is not a rich people project, but... 2021-03-18T21:00:56Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:01:30Z amirouche: mind the fact that wbtree also prefers to insert data in sorted order hth 2021-03-18T21:02:02Z amirouche: that is the whole point of rb-tree, binary-tree, wbtree, since data comes pseudo randomly, how to balance it correctly. 2021-03-18T21:02:41Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-18T21:03:40Z amirouche: Zipheir: do you want to know the brillant reason https://notion.so will stream / lazy load the wysiwyg page? 2021-03-18T21:03:44Z amirouche: (say yes!) 2021-03-18T21:03:55Z amirouche: \cc mdhughes 2021-03-18T21:04:19Z amirouche: spoiler: it fixes a bug in google doc. 2021-03-18T21:05:14Z Zipheir: Sure, but I'm going to be AFK for a bit. 2021-03-18T21:05:33Z amirouche: try to guess :) 2021-03-18T21:05:44Z amirouche: I will explain tomorrow when mdhughes will be back 2021-03-18T21:08:34Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:10:39Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-18T21:11:10Z greyeax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:19:24Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T21:19:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-18T21:23:13Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-18T21:23:43Z edgar-xyz joined #scheme 2021-03-18T21:24:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-18T21:27:23Z Zipheir quit (Quit: Eadem mutata resurgo.) 2021-03-18T21:27:25Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-18T21:27:42Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-03-18T21:29:41Z aquijoule__ joined #scheme 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2021-03-19T00:06:43Z evdubs_ is now known as evdubs 2021-03-19T00:07:26Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-19T00:15:34Z mdhughes: What I do? 2021-03-19T00:16:28Z remby quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-19T00:16:35Z sgibber2018 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-19T00:16:54Z Zipheir: mdhughes: amirouche wanted to show you something. 2021-03-19T00:17:34Z mdhughes: I see. I have scrollback, just not caffeine enough yet to understand much 2021-03-19T00:17:55Z Zipheir: rudybot: seen amirouche 2021-03-19T00:17:55Z rudybot: Zipheir: amirouche was seen in #scheme three hours ago, saying "I will explain tomorrow when mdhughes will be back", and then amirouche was seen quitting two hours ago, saying "Ping timeout: 240 seconds" 2021-03-19T00:18:07Z Zipheir: Famous last words. 2021-03-19T00:25:20Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-19T00:25:43Z notzmv: indeed 2021-03-19T00:29:29Z dieggsy: one time, i defined a few macros in elisp (e.g. define) to convince myself i was writing scheme, lol 2021-03-19T00:31:02Z dieggsy: ...after a couple weeks i said "what am i doing" and promptly stopped that 2021-03-19T00:31:21Z dieggsy: are there any editors easily extensible in scheme besides edwin? 2021-03-19T00:31:56Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-19T00:47:12Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T00:47:55Z corpix_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T00:48:08Z corpix joined #scheme 2021-03-19T00:51:47Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-19T00:53:43Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T01:04:19Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T01:05:00Z mdhughes: I've symlinked a few Scheme scripts in my BBEdit Text Filters folder. That makes them appear in the menu. 2021-03-19T01:05:01Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-19T01:05:52Z mdhughes: I don't have an easy way yet to do AppleScript events from Scheme, so I can't totally control the editor that way. 2021-03-19T01:07:34Z Zipheir: dieggsy: I was working on a fork of vis (https://github.com/martanne/vis) with chibi-scheme replacing Lua, but that project is very much "on hold" at the moment. 2021-03-19T01:09:02Z Wezl: I'd love to see that (vis being my favorite editor and scheme being one of my favorite currently-existing (:)) languages) 2021-03-19T01:09:14Z Zipheir: Wezl: Oh, cool. 2021-03-19T01:09:15Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-19T01:09:54Z Zipheir: Wrapping the editor interface for Chibi was very easy, but the editor itself is still pretty complex (despite being one of the simpler scriptable editors out there). 2021-03-19T01:17:34Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T01:24:51Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-19T01:29:38Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-19T01:35:32Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-19T01:36:03Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-03-19T01:47:21Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-19T01:47:26Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-19T01:52:07Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-03-19T01:57:38Z siraben: amirouche1: I was asleep, heh 2021-03-19T01:57:58Z siraben: Where were we, ah yes, SRFI-2 2021-03-19T01:58:58Z siraben: amirouche1: would it help to think of the semantics like a macro expansion? 2021-03-19T01:59:25Z siraben: It wouldn't be difficult to convert the semantics to a Scheme program, even, if read like a function that operates on the AST of Scheme programs. 2021-03-19T01:59:56Z leb joined #scheme 2021-03-19T02:22:58Z jjjd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T02:23:40Z jjjd joined #scheme 2021-03-19T02:26:40Z jxy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T02:26:58Z jxy joined #scheme 2021-03-19T02:32:31Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-19T02:34:55Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-03-19T02:36:26Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T02:42:27Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T02:43:47Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-19T02:56:33Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-03-19T02:57:34Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-19T03:06:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-19T03:10:32Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T03:34:19Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-19T03:35:30Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-03-19T03:50:43Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T03:51:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-19T03:53:20Z kaiwulf quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-19T03:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T03:58:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-19T04:03:20Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T04:25:06Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-19T04:29:18Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-03-19T04:32:11Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-19T04:41:54Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-03-19T04:50:05Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-19T04:52:57Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-19T05:05:46Z Zipheir quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T05:07:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-19T05:12:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T05:12:41Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-03-19T05:14:53Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-19T05:27:31Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-03-19T05:28:10Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-19T05:40:14Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-19T05:40:42Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-19T05:41:17Z phossil joined #scheme 2021-03-19T05:45:29Z phossil quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-19T05:59:57Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-19T06:00:37Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-19T06:04:56Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-19T06:07:28Z amirouche1: sqlite lsm is documented O_o 2021-03-19T06:12:28Z leb quit 2021-03-19T06:13:16Z amirouche1: https://sqlite.org/src4/doc/trunk/www/lsm.wiki 2021-03-19T06:15:23Z leb joined #scheme 2021-03-19T06:15:33Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-19T06:24:46Z leb quit 2021-03-19T06:37:38Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-19T06:46:39Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-19T06:47:48Z pranavats joined #scheme 2021-03-19T06:50:31Z polezaivsani: had hard time trying to prove transitivity of β convertibility (=) last night, the case where terms M and N being β-reducible to term L, shoul imply M = N 2021-03-19T06:50:47Z polezaivsani: would anybody here have any hints? 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Fine if all I want to do is resize a window or quit an app, terrible for manipulating text in an editor. 2021-03-19T11:26:44Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-19T11:27:03Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-19T11:27:19Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T11:27:48Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-19T11:28:24Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T11:30:18Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-19T11:30:37Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T11:38:03Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-19T11:40:13Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T11:47:28Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-19T11:47:40Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T11:49:08Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-19T11:50:10Z Sathiana quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-19T11:50:51Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-19T11:52:36Z amirouche: mdhughes: I think I found out why notion.so does stream / lazy load wysiwyg documents 2021-03-19T11:55:17Z amirouche: notion.so will lazy load the document because: In google doc, when a multi page document is edited, if you edit at the bottom, the document shift up or down when someone adds a paragraph or something at the top. 2021-03-19T11:57:11Z amirouche: loading only the part that is necessary to the current editor ie. the part that is visible in browser window will avoid that problem, since the current user's browser will be clueless about edits done up in the page, until they scroll, at which point notion will load that part of the doc. 2021-03-19T11:58:19Z amirouche: it also helps a little bit backend side performance side, and reduce the number of OT push that the backend needs to do. 2021-03-19T12:01:02Z amirouche: I do not understand why people make a big story of Operational Transformation (OT), because it really is concerned with _two_ or more editors in the same paragraph, it seems to me it is an edge case and does not require to be perfect. 2021-03-19T12:01:40Z amirouche: _two_ or more editors in the _same paragraph_ 2021-03-19T12:04:41Z wasamasa: what else you gonna do, lock more than one editor per paragraph? 2021-03-19T12:05:18Z wasamasa: even MS Office is better than that 2021-03-19T12:13:15Z amirouche: Indeed there is that solution to lock a paragraph for on editor. That is very easy. 2021-03-19T12:14:24Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-19T12:14:38Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:14:47Z amirouche: Otherwise, you try to keep up with concurrent changes using OT. In case, it becomes unmanageable for some reason (like too many editors), lock the paragraph OR do not apply deletes to avoid to loose information, and send a snapshot to every user so that they see the same thing as the server. 2021-03-19T12:16:08Z amirouche: AFAIU my coworker that use google doc, work on different pages, when two users edit the same paragraph the second user may only do a typofix. 2021-03-19T12:16:59Z amirouche: Anyway, it is incredible and not practical that two people write the same paragraph at the same time. 2021-03-19T12:17:11Z dpk: why not? 2021-03-19T12:17:16Z dpk: if they're writing difference sentences in it 2021-03-19T12:17:19Z amirouche: I mean the result will most likely be garbage anyway 2021-03-19T12:17:31Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-19T12:17:36Z dpk: if they're trying to edit the same sentence they're probably going to conflict in a way even a perfect OT couldn't resolve 2021-03-19T12:17:47Z amirouche: paragraph is small unit of work, i do not think you split that work. 2021-03-19T12:18:24Z dpk: 🤨 2021-03-19T12:19:07Z amirouche: That being said, a perfect OT is very interesting from a theorical POV. but practically speaking, it does not seem _in the use cases I can think of_ perfection does not seem a strong requirement. 2021-03-19T12:20:05Z dpk: if your OT isn't perfect, you will end up with different clients thinking the document is perfectly resolved to the latest version, but also in different states 2021-03-19T12:20:09Z amirouche: In the case two editors edit the same sentence, it might happen, so it must be handled, but 10 users changing the same paragraph, is another story. 2021-03-19T12:21:14Z dpk: i mean, yes, you can say it's unlikely to happen and users shouldn't try to edit the same part of the document at the same time. but they will, so you must handle that case 2021-03-19T12:21:15Z amirouche: dpk: that why the server need to force a refresh of the paragraph in case of complex conflict, possibly disregarding deletes and in worst cases disregarding additions. 2021-03-19T12:21:45Z dpk: (fun fact: that is why i will never try to implement OT ever again) 2021-03-19T12:23:53Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-19T12:25:03Z amirouche: s/very easy/possible/ :) 2021-03-19T12:26:08Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-19T12:26:38Z amirouche: Speaking of possible, since I got two weeks of holydays, I think I will try to implement okvslite in terms of POSIX open, close, flush and mmap. 2021-03-19T12:26:59Z amirouche: using SQLite as inspiration. 2021-03-19T12:36:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-19T12:42:56Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-19T12:46:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T12:49:18Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-19T13:08:21Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-19T13:22:56Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-19T13:27:26Z xlei_ joined #scheme 2021-03-19T13:29:06Z `micro_ joined #scheme 2021-03-19T13:29:21Z supercoven joined #scheme 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any case folding. 2021-03-19T13:39:35Z littleme joined #scheme 2021-03-19T13:39:43Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-19T13:39:52Z littleme quit (*.net *.split) 2021-03-19T13:41:01Z wasamasa: I could test that 2021-03-19T13:41:39Z marusich joined #scheme 2021-03-19T13:43:03Z littleme joined #scheme 2021-03-19T13:52:31Z wasamasa: it's five times as fast 2021-03-19T13:52:37Z wasamasa: who'd have thunk 2021-03-19T13:52:58Z wasamasa: even more even, 37s vs 4m45s 2021-03-19T13:54:28Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T13:55:06Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-19T14:01:34Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-19T14:02:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-19T14:04:53Z oxum_ joined #scheme 2021-03-19T14:06:08Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-19T14:07:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T14:08:58Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-19T14:10:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-19T14:11:17Z skapata 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pinoaffe joined #scheme 2021-03-20T08:05:04Z amirouche: hello #scheme :) 2021-03-20T08:07:30Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-20T08:11:23Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-20T08:11:27Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-20T08:23:12Z nmeum quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-20T08:23:12Z nmeum joined #scheme 2021-03-20T08:26:18Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-20T08:27:31Z ZombieChicken: Shhh. I think everyone is sleeping 2021-03-20T08:34:12Z siraben: hello 2021-03-20T08:34:14Z siraben: it's 15:34 here heh 2021-03-20T08:35:03Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T08:37:22Z rotty joined #scheme 2021-03-20T08:38:00Z amirouche: siraben: eventually, I think I understood srfi-2 formal semantic :) 2021-03-20T08:38:01Z malaclyps quit (Quit: gone) 2021-03-20T08:38:29Z amirouche: I was suprised the formal language is neither math nor scheme. 2021-03-20T08:38:42Z amirouche: not math: not a math notation I already know. 2021-03-20T08:38:49Z malaclyps joined #scheme 2021-03-20T08:39:37Z dpk: good morning 2021-03-20T08:42:48Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-20T08:53:43Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-20T09:01:53Z siraben: amirouche: I guess I read it like Haskell 2021-03-20T09:02:07Z siraben: denotational semantics usually ends up looking like some ML program 2021-03-20T09:06:00Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-20T09:11:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-20T09:12:12Z wasamasa: rudybot: what about delusional semantics 2021-03-20T09:12:18Z rudybot: wasamasa: It never existed, you're delusional. 2021-03-20T09:12:25Z wasamasa: damnit 2021-03-20T09:15:49Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-20T09:16:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T09:33:03Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-20T09:42:29Z Sathiana quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T09:44:50Z Guest13676 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-20T09:44:59Z `micro joined #scheme 2021-03-20T10:04:32Z matryoshka` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T10:23:45Z leb joined #scheme 2021-03-20T10:33:28Z opFez joined #scheme 2021-03-20T10:36:34Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-20T10:48:29Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T10:49:45Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-03-20T10:50:51Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-03-20T11:42:42Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-20T11:44:23Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-20T11:46:09Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T11:47:44Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T11:48:06Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-20T11:52:13Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-20T12:00:48Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-20T12:14:58Z midow quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-20T12:30:59Z corpix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T12:31:11Z corpix joined #scheme 2021-03-20T13:13:19Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-20T13:16:21Z leb quit 2021-03-20T13:17:51Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T13:26:24Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-20T13:58:34Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-20T13:59:49Z Guest78805 joined #scheme 2021-03-20T14:00:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-20T14:02:27Z lockywolf quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-20T14:03:18Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-03-20T14:04:10Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-03-20T14:14:28Z oxum_ joined #scheme 2021-03-20T14:14:39Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-20T14:16:07Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-20T14:39:36Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-20T14:42:08Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-03-20T15:01:32Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T15:01:51Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-20T15:03:44Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T15:15:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-20T15:18:13Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-20T15:25:29Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-20T15:27:35Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-20T15:27:38Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-20T15:39:46Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-20T15:40:13Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-20T15:42:49Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-20T15:48:04Z ft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T15:48:24Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T15:56:20Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-20T16:08:57Z opFez quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T16:17:08Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T16:18:00Z Perkol joined #scheme 2021-03-20T16:18:40Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-20T16:19:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-20T16:22:25Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-20T16:24:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-20T16:33:09Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-20T16:34:56Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-20T16:45:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-20T16:47:06Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-20T16:50:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-20T16:54:10Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-20T17:04:49Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-20T17:16:52Z Zipheir: rudybot: tell amirouche Check out Oleg's "Having an Effect" video. 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2021-03-21T14:17:40Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-21T14:17:48Z m1dnight_ joined #scheme 2021-03-21T14:28:56Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T14:30:08Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T14:35:10Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-03-21T14:39:26Z opFez joined #scheme 2021-03-21T14:50:44Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-21T14:57:47Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-21T15:08:37Z xandkar joined #scheme 2021-03-21T15:11:18Z Zipheir: siraben: Rebase is a great and insidious evil. 2021-03-21T15:11:37Z Zipheir: Though I might like "squash" even less. 2021-03-21T15:13:06Z Zipheir: siraben: http://paul.stadig.name/2010/12/thou-shalt-not-lie-git-rebase-ammend.html 2021-03-21T15:28:43Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-21T15:33:18Z siraben: Zipheir: I only rebase in PRs because many FOSS projects don't want merge commits to keep history clean 2021-03-21T15:33:37Z siraben: and long-lived branches that are rebased on upstream 2021-03-21T15:33:41Z 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I believe that, if someone thinks that merges make things "dirty", then a decentralized VCS like git is not what they want. 2021-03-21T15:36:32Z Zipheir: siraben: The tools are very useful here. git log has the useful --no-merges option. Don't discard the information--hide it! 2021-03-21T15:37:07Z siraben: Ah, interesting, never heard about --no-merges 2021-03-21T15:37:17Z siraben: Yeah it was probably because projects I contributed to asked me to rebase and clean up history 2021-03-21T15:37:22Z siraben: which quickly becomes addictive 2021-03-21T15:38:11Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T15:38:11Z Zipheir: But then, I think, you end up with time-traveling in your histories, and (as that post mentions) they tend to break bisect. 2021-03-21T15:40:51Z siraben: Ah I see. The Nixpkgs project comes to mind (they rebase heavily in PRs) but I think it's fairly innocent to make commits per package, since the changes are isolated from each other. 2021-03-21T15:41:23Z Zipheir: I heartily recommend checking out git log's many commit-limiting options. 2021-03-21T15:41:30Z Zipheir: Yeah, a lot of projects do that. 2021-03-21T15:49:39Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-21T15:59:47Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-21T16:00:55Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T16:01:32Z opFez quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T16:12:37Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-21T16:18:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-21T16:18:09Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-21T16:18:47Z opFez joined #scheme 2021-03-21T16:20:18Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-03-21T16:20:59Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-03-21T16:22:39Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2021-03-21T16:22:47Z amirouche: Zipheir: got you message from the backlog 2021-03-21T16:22:50Z amirouche: ty 2021-03-21T16:22:57Z aquijoule__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T16:23:44Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-21T16:29:54Z Zipheir: amirouche: Oleg's talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhERMBT7u4w I think most of the audience is mystified, except for ONE GUY who seems to get everything Oleg is saying. 2021-03-21T16:30:08Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T16:33:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-21T16:38:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T16:49:59Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-21T16:50:57Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T16:55:34Z dpk: yes, i've seen Oleg talk on a different occasion, and that is a reasonable summary of the atmosphere in the room after the 30 minutes were up 2021-03-21T16:56:32Z dpk: (his talk had also been one of the ones that people said they were most looking forward to at that conference, and i think everyone came out after it was finished still looking forward to it) 2021-03-21T16:56:41Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-21T16:56:48Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-21T16:57:57Z dpk: anyway, i'm wondering what Scheme implementations do and do not garbage collect symbols 2021-03-21T16:58:56Z dpk: in part out of curiosity; in part because i'm doing API designs (like SWAG) where anonymous third-parties on the other end of a network connection can create as many symbols as they like, and i'm wondering if that's actually a good idea 2021-03-21T17:00:05Z dpk: alas, it's hard to know without digging deep into the implementations in question. it's not something one could easily measure with something like jcowan's Scheme test suite 2021-03-21T17:03:28Z dpk: Chibi doesn't, but could: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/issues/488 2021-03-21T17:07:03Z dpk: hmm, i guess one could ulimit memory to something smallish and then run a script like M N-W's from that Chibi issue and see if it complains. that said, i'm not sure if Scheme would notice a ulimit as a reason to run the garbage collector, or if they rather prefer to just run it when they think they need to save some memory 2021-03-21T17:11:36Z jcowan: Any Scheme could do so provided there is no additional state associated with symbols. 2021-03-21T17:15:38Z dpk: from a quick test looking at the memory usage of the processes and running an infinite do loop creating new symbols, Gambit does not collect symbols, but Chicken does 2021-03-21T17:16:16Z dpk: (in both cases in the interpreter, though i assume the compilers behave similarly) 2021-03-21T17:16:44Z dpk: Chez does collect them too, unsurprisingly 2021-03-21T17:17:43Z dpk: as does Guile 2021-03-21T17:18:36Z dpk: (i should probably mention version numbers. Gambit 4.9.3; Chicken 5.2.0; Chez 9.5; Guile 3.0.5) 2021-03-21T17:20:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-21T17:21:56Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T17:23:08Z rgherdt: dpk: nice, thanks for sharing this 2021-03-21T17:24:50Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-21T17:24:56Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T17:31:27Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-03-21T17:35:05Z Zipheir: It seems like not collecting symbols would be an error, since it's an obvious route to running out of memory. 2021-03-21T17:40:45Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T17:40:58Z dpk: well, it adds a bit of complexity, since you have to make the symbol table use weak references. Ruby didn't GC symbols for many, many years (which is what made me wonder if there were Schemes that had the same problem), but people kept writing code that made symbols out of untrusted user data and enabling DoS attacks, so they eventually fixed that iirc 2021-03-21T17:44:06Z Zipheir: Interesting dilemma. 2021-03-21T17:44:34Z dpk: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/7791 2021-03-21T17:49:31Z Zipheir: I think it suggests the question of "what do we actually need symbols for?". 2021-03-21T17:49:37Z sdu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T17:50:06Z dpk: i suspect in a lot of cases, symbols are used just because they look nicer than strings when used for a particular job 2021-03-21T17:51:37Z Zipheir: Yeah. But there's the fishy semantics with reading-in symbols and whether two symbols are eqv?, etc. I wonder if there are any cases in which GC strategy affects equivalence of symbols (in Schemes that do GC symbols). 2021-03-21T17:52:38Z ecraven: what's that fishy semantics? isn't it clearly defined when two symbols are eq? 2021-03-21T17:54:56Z Zipheir: It's never clearly defined when things *aren't* the same in the sense of eq?, but that's tangential. 2021-03-21T17:55:31Z Zipheir: ecraven: True, the standard is clear about read/write. 2021-03-21T17:55:32Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-21T17:56:02Z dpk: nothing's unclear until you bring uninterned symbols into the equation, surely? 2021-03-21T17:56:36Z Zipheir: It was eq? returning false that I was calling unclear. 2021-03-21T17:56:40Z ecraven: now symbols in CL, that's different. but in Scheme, I never had questions... and uninterned symbols aren't part of any RnRS, are they? 2021-03-21T17:56:48Z Zipheir: Yeah, uninterned symbols are a murkier area. 2021-03-21T17:56:55Z ecraven: for which two symbols does eq? return #f where you expect it to return #t? 2021-03-21T17:57:12Z jcowan: Most programs don't use string->symbol, so typically the numer of symbolx in a program is finite (indeed, zero) 2021-03-21T17:57:26Z jcowan: Oh yes, read also creates symbols 2021-03-21T17:57:39Z dpk: Feeley says the issue is unlikely to get fixed in Gambit (similar issues to Ruby, the assumption that symbols aren't GC'd is baked in fairly deep) https://github.com/gambit/gambit/issues/675 2021-03-21T17:57:52Z sunwukon` joined #scheme 2021-03-21T17:58:03Z Zipheir: ecraven: Oops, you're right. eq? must give the same results as eqv? for symbols. 2021-03-21T17:58:27Z sunwukon` quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T17:59:29Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:00:28Z Zipheir: (The "weird" cases with eq? are characters, numbers, and empty things.) 2021-03-21T18:02:08Z sunwukon` joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:08:21Z sunwukong quit (Quit: authenticating) 2021-03-21T18:08:30Z sunwukong joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:08:51Z sunwukong is now known as Guest32848 2021-03-21T18:09:03Z Guest32848 left #scheme 2021-03-21T18:11:19Z sunwukon` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-21T18:11:57Z sunwukon` joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:20:08Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T18:20:41Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:21:13Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:22:20Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T18:24:22Z jcowan: in r7 procedures are odd too 2021-03-21T18:33:47Z leb joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:34:04Z dpk: jcowan: i thought that was fixed at the last minute? 2021-03-21T18:36:33Z leb quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T18:38:51Z sunwukon` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-03-21T18:40:38Z jcowan: no, they were made weird at the last moment as a compromise between R5 (procedures are guaranteed eq?) and R6 (procedures are never guaranteed eq? a la ML) 2021-03-21T18:42:57Z sunwukon` joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:44:08Z dpk: but there was that "location tag" language added. in what cases are two procedures which would have definitely been eq? in R5RS not guaranteed to be eq? in R7RS? 2021-03-21T18:44:30Z sunwukon` is now known as sunwukong 2021-03-21T18:45:33Z sunwukong quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T18:55:39Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:57:08Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-21T18:58:01Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T19:02:08Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-21T19:03:32Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-21T19:21:24Z sunwukong joined #scheme 2021-03-21T19:21:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-21T19:26:08Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:26:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-21T19:30:33Z jcowan: dpk: Procedures with the same location tag. 2021-03-21T19:31:13Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-21T19:31:34Z jcowan: In R5, procs with the same tag are both eq? and eqv?. In R6, they are undefined on eq? and eqv?. In R7 they are undefined on eq? but are the same on eqv?. 2021-03-21T19:32:43Z jcowan: Talk of tags is just "were these procedures created by the exact same call to lambda?" If so, they have the same tag, if not they have distinct tags. 2021-03-21T19:36:54Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-21T19:39:39Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-21T19:40:21Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T19:44:04Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-21T19:44:21Z motersen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-21T19:46:02Z dpk: "On procedures, eq? must return true if the arguments’ location tags are equal" 2021-03-21T19:46:09Z dpk: p. 31 2021-03-21T19:48:09Z dpk: if that sentence were not there, i would have voted against the small language's ratification (as my vote was conditional on it being added, since it's important if you want to e.g. build record systems out of procedures and have eq? work as expected on your records) 2021-03-21T19:53:46Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-21T19:54:08Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:01:00Z Zipheir: Is eq? that useful? To me it seems like it's there for hysterical raisins. 2021-03-21T20:02:36Z Zipheir: I've yet to notice any significant performance penalty when using eqv? instead. 2021-03-21T20:03:43Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-21T20:04:29Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-21T20:10:06Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-21T20:11:48Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:12:33Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:28:45Z jcowan: +1 2021-03-21T20:30:07Z jcowan: That's the way I describe them: equal? is structural equality on certain structures but maybe not others; eqv? is identity; eq? is a performance hack that subverts identity. 2021-03-21T20:30:37Z jcowan: # 2021-03-21T20:31:13Z jcowan: #\c and #\c are potentially discernible even though they are identical; Lebniz is spinning faster and faster 2021-03-21T20:42:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-21T20:43:08Z opFez quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-21T20:46:21Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-21T20:46:27Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T20:48:56Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:05:20Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2021-03-21T21:07:01Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-21T21:08:13Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-21T21:08:46Z amirouche: performance ftw! 2021-03-21T21:08:50Z amirouche runs 2021-03-21T21:12:41Z motersen quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-21T21:16:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-21T21:20:07Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-21T21:20:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:28:58Z Noisytoot is now known as LPBot_ 2021-03-21T21:29:53Z LPBot_ is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-21T21:33:51Z polezaivsani quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T21:34:56Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-21T21:36:23Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:52:45Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T21:58:02Z jgart joined #scheme 2021-03-21T22:07:39Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:09:52Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-21T22:12:30Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:13:56Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-21T22:13:57Z cjb is now known as Guest61464 2021-03-21T22:14:03Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-21T22:14:49Z Guest61464 is now known as cjbayliss 2021-03-21T22:15:26Z cjbayliss quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-21T22:16:22Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-21T22:16:59Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-21T22:43:49Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-21T22:47:24Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T22:54:29Z X-Scale: From MIT/GNU Scheme webpage: 2021-03-21T22:54:32Z X-Scale: "No support for Apple silicon: At this time, we are unable to support new macs using Apple's silicon (the M1 chip). Although we support the ARM architecture it's based on, Apple's design uses W^X restrictions that conflict with the way that MIT/GNU Scheme manages memory." 2021-03-21T22:54:42Z X-Scale: "Our native-code implementation requires both write and execute permissions on memory, and fixing that is a significant redesign that's unlikely to happen in the near future." 2021-03-21T22:54:51Z X-Scale: This is a worrying hardware trend. 2021-03-21T22:55:26Z dieggsy: Zipheir siraben I used to like rebasing because of the 'clean history' reason and then I got over it and now feel merging is nicer lol. basically i tried a couple merges and everything seemed... to go more smoothly? lol. and preserving history feels more important than 'clean' history 2021-03-21T23:05:14Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-21T23:05:41Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-21T23:06:02Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:16:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-21T23:20:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:23:49Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:26:33Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:30:57Z polezaivsani quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-21T23:31:35Z jcowan: I expect that will go away because JITs. 2021-03-22T00:22:21Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-22T00:29:36Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-22T00:46:18Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-22T00:51:14Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-22T01:11:23Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T01:14:25Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:17:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T01:20:59Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-03-22T01:22:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:31:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T01:34:08Z xandkar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:36:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:38:32Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:52:02Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T01:54:32Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-03-22T01:55:20Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T02:01:01Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-22T02:05:59Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-22T02:13:35Z dieggsy: X-Scale: that sounds wild. why are the restrictions there in the first place 2021-03-22T02:21:11Z fizzie: Aren't the motivations for W^X kind of obvious? If you have no memory mapped that *simultaneously* has write and execute permissions, you eliminate one category of security problems. (Also, not all JITs have a problem with that: you can write code to a page that's currently RW, and then change its protections to RX, without violating W^X.) 2021-03-22T02:23:02Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T02:25:42Z fizzie: (Disclaimer: I've no idea what M1 MacOS does that goes beyond the usual. Maybe just strict enforcement of the policy?) 2021-03-22T02:26:15Z jcowan: I'd guess that you can't switch a segment from W to X (without freeing it) 2021-03-22T02:26:48Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T02:30:44Z mdhughes: Well, obviously you can because you can load programs. You just can't do both at the same time. 2021-03-22T02:31:39Z mdhughes: IIRC from when I cared more, that's been policy on iOS forever. Only x86 was vulnerable to that kind of attack. 2021-03-22T02:32:41Z fizzie: A link next to the announcement would've been nice. :) Tried to look for bug reports (I imagine that's where those sort of things usually get discussed), but all I could find was https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?func=detailitem&item_id=59994 which is about an unrelated build failure (and even "should be fixed" by a commit, which is odd if it's just fundamentally impossible to support). 2021-03-22T02:33:39Z mdhughes: Unfortunately the best documentation will be at WWDC this year, when they do sessions on "Memory Protection on Apple Silicon" and the like. May be some for iOS from previous years. 2021-03-22T02:34:24Z fizzie: Well, there's https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple-silicon/porting-just-in-time-compilers-to-apple-silicon "Porting Just-In-Time Compilers to Apple Silicon" 2021-03-22T02:34:41Z mdhughes: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686/ 2021-03-22T02:39:14Z fizzie: The "To facilitate JIT code generation, update your JIT compiler to disable write protections using the following steps --" section doesn't make it sound too unusual; just that you must make it writable (but not executable) before code generation, and then executable (but not writable) before use, which AIUI a lot of JITs already do. 2021-03-22T02:41:17Z jcowan: Loading programs just means that flipping from W to X is available only to the kernel. 2021-03-22T02:42:23Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T02:47:31Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-22T02:49:36Z brendyyn joined #scheme 2021-03-22T02:53:35Z dieggsy: fizzie: not obvious if you don't know anything about it or the subject in general lol 2021-03-22T02:54:37Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-22T02:57:21Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T02:58:51Z brendyyn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T03:02:18Z Guest78805 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T03:06:56Z jcowan: However, you have to allocate the segment with the flag MAP_JIT in the first place. 2021-03-22T03:17:38Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T03:18:08Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T03:41:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T03:45:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-22T03:49:45Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T03:52:02Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-22T03:59:38Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T04:00:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-22T04:27:59Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T04:28:20Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-22T04:30:49Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T04:31:28Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-22T04:32:40Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-22T04:36:41Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T04:37:06Z zooey joined #scheme 2021-03-22T04:49:54Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T04:57:59Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T04:58:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-22T05:04:37Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T05:12:55Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T05:39:55Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-22T05:42:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T05:45:23Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-22T05:46:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T05:53:21Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-22T05:55:00Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T05:56:56Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-22T06:08:27Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-22T06:12:47Z amirouche: hello all! 2021-03-22T06:12:58Z amirouche: +1 Zipheir on preserving git history. 2021-03-22T06:20:54Z siraben: it does annoy me when people merge master into master or a branch into itself, rebasing would help enormously with that 2021-03-22T06:22:01Z Zipheir: I've never seen that. How does that happen? 2021-03-22T06:22:41Z Zipheir: (No doubt it has something to do with git's very light-weight branch structure.) 2021-03-22T06:25:05Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T06:30:09Z Zipheir: Never mind, I'm familiar with a similar technique in Fossil for implementing cherry-picking and "backouts" (reverts). 2021-03-22T06:30:57Z cjb quit 2021-03-22T06:41:31Z jgart quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T06:43:23Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-22T06:43:44Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T06:44:07Z siraben: Zipheir: it happens when people commit locally and somehow get out of sync with their own branch 2021-03-22T06:44:31Z siraben: e.g. when I wasn't familiar with git, I had two places where I cloned my dotfiles, then sometimes committed them separtely 2021-03-22T06:46:08Z Zipheir: That makes sense. 2021-03-22T06:47:16Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-22T06:49:34Z Zipheir: Fossil has a convenient autosync option (enabled by default) which does an upstream sync before and after every commit; this eliminates the accidental-fork issue with local repositories. I'm not aware of a similar setting for Git, unfortunatey. 2021-03-22T06:49:54Z Zipheir: *unfortunately 2021-03-22T07:04:29Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-03-22T07:04:41Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-22T07:26:54Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-22T07:42:03Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T07:43:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T07:43:54Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T07:47:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T07:49:06Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-22T07:59:25Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-22T08:01:28Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-22T08:04:38Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-22T08:05:42Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-22T08:07:33Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-22T08:09:28Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T08:10:40Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T08:11:53Z dpk: i was skimming through the HTML parsing specification last night and realized it would be kind of cool to implement it in Scheme as a pair of mutually-recursive functions (tokenizer and tree builder) 2021-03-22T08:12:44Z dpk: (you can't implement it as a straightforward tokenizer to parser pipeline because the tree builder can set the state of the tokenizer, and vice versa) 2021-03-22T08:14:01Z dpk: apart from that, it's not as complicated as it looks. it's mostly the sheer volume of the damn thing (80 different tokenizer states, and a bunch of state tracking variables that come in out of nowhere when parsing certain constructs but are otherwise unused) 2021-03-22T08:20:39Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-22T08:21:26Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-22T08:24:41Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-22T08:32:00Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-22T08:43:39Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-03-22T08:46:32Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T09:02:34Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2021-03-22T09:03:28Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-22T09:09:10Z amirouche quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-22T09:22:14Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-22T09:41:44Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-22T09:43:33Z lockywolf quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-22T09:44:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T09:45:15Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-03-22T09:47:21Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-22T09:48:49Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-22T09:59:26Z lockywolf: isn't html a subtype of xml? 2021-03-22T10:00:01Z tdammers: no 2021-03-22T10:00:06Z tdammers: xhtml is 2021-03-22T10:00:27Z tdammers: but html in general allows things that are not well-formed xml 2021-03-22T10:01:13Z lockywolf: I mean, is it not the case that it should be possible to make a parser for html by "tweakin" an xml parser? 2021-03-22T10:02:05Z lockywolf: I think in the most recent html specifications it is not even a textual language, it's a tree of javascript objects that happen to have a traditional serialisation. 2021-03-22T10:02:12Z lockywolf: two traditional serialisations 2021-03-22T10:02:15Z tdammers: naively, yes, with a lot of squinting, but "it's complicated" 2021-03-22T10:02:24Z tdammers: for a tip of the iceberg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Generalized_Markup_Language#Derivatives 2021-03-22T10:05:07Z tdammers: also: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#parsing - definitely not specified as "a tree of javascript objects that happen to have a traditional serialisation" - this document clearly defines HTML syntax in terms of textual-ish source 2021-03-22T10:05:49Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-03-22T10:07:10Z wasamasa: html is a big sprawling mess and the living standards just explain what the browsers roughly do 2021-03-22T10:10:27Z wasamasa: one fun thing to think about is how one even handles JS and CSS inside a HTML document 2021-03-22T10:10:39Z wasamasa: the XHTML solution would be using CDATA blocks 2021-03-22T10:10:48Z wasamasa: in practice I only see java software doing that 2021-03-22T10:13:16Z ManDay always uses CDATA 2021-03-22T10:13:28Z ManDay: (and XHTML) 2021-03-22T10:13:34Z ManDay: but then again, I'd make a horrible web dev 2021-03-22T10:20:58Z xandkar joined #scheme 2021-03-22T10:35:29Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T10:36:58Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-22T10:40:12Z andrei-n joined #scheme 2021-03-22T10:48:32Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-22T10:55:52Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-03-22T11:01:27Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T11:23:03Z pinoaffe: lockywolf: there are common subsets of html and xml, but html has a lot of weirdness/edgecases which mean that, while an xml parser might be able to make sense out of some html pages, it'll probably choke on others 2021-03-22T11:43:30Z andrei-n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T11:45:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T11:49:55Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T11:57:27Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:13:24Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:13:38Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:15:04Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:16:56Z mdhughes: HTML was originally a strict DTD of SGML, but it's basically "tag soup" now. 2021-03-22T12:17:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:33:56Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T12:33:59Z m1dow joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:35:27Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:36:23Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-22T12:37:07Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:37:38Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T12:39:19Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:44:34Z turtleman joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:45:53Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-22T12:50:01Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T12:57:19Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-22T13:06:02Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-22T13:19:49Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T13:32:19Z erkin quit (Quit: Ouch! 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It's definitely spam, but sort of ... academic spam. Here's the message: http://ix.io/2TLc 2021-03-22T16:40:08Z Zipheir: Oops, *about a SRFI repo 2021-03-22T16:44:43Z Zipheir: Seems to be well-meaning spam, at least, but why spam Apache 2.0? 2021-03-22T16:45:02Z wasamasa: I'd expect that with openssl 2021-03-22T16:47:33Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T16:48:25Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-22T16:55:23Z jcowan: I can't get access to the papers, but it makes sense to me that if you want to reach the max number of users, you should use Apache, which waives patent rights and allows essentially free reuse, so minimizes the customer's legal risk. 2021-03-22T16:55:55Z jcowan: (There is an argument that the MIT license waives patent rights because of the word 'use', but MIT itself says this is not true, so it would be up to a judge.) 2021-03-22T16:57:40Z Zipheir: Indeed. I didn't know that about Apache, but I do now. So I guess the spammers got what they wanted. 2021-03-22T17:01:41Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-22T17:05:19Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:08:01Z daviid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T17:08:20Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-03-22T17:10:12Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-22T17:10:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T17:10:58Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-22T17:15:40Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:18:59Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-22T17:27:41Z zooey_ joined #scheme 2021-03-22T17:28:08Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:31:15Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-22T17:41:04Z wasamasa: lol 2021-03-22T17:41:24Z wasamasa: this seems like a classic statistics example 2021-03-22T17:41:59Z wasamasa: you see some well meaning statistic of people drinking a glass of wine a day being healthier and assume that by doing that you'll be like them 2021-03-22T17:42:09Z wasamasa: but that's not necessarily how it plays out 2021-03-22T17:42:33Z wasamasa: otherwise by imitating traits commonly held by millionaires would have ensured us cushy lives 2021-03-22T17:42:59Z wasamasa: and it seems similar with switching licenses, most projects aren't that important to see any kind of community adoption 2021-03-22T17:44:34Z wasamasa: assuming a license change encourages it is kind of presumptious 2021-03-22T17:49:37Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:54:56Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:56:43Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-22T17:57:43Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-22T18:00:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T18:04:54Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-22T18:09:52Z amirouche quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-03-22T18:20:45Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:24:22Z Zipheir: Well, MIT is propagating fastest among FOSS licenses at the moment, so there's a different success story. 2021-03-22T18:25:07Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-03-22T18:32:52Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-03-22T18:41:50Z casaca quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:43:20Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T18:44:05Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-22T18:51:40Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:53:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T18:54:15Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T18:54:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T18:58:20Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-22T18:59:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T19:02:21Z srji_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T19:03:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T19:28:07Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T19:30:46Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-03-22T19:32:02Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T19:42:45Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-03-22T19:54:29Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T19:55:03Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-22T20:11:26Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T20:15:18Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:15:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T20:19:20Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:26:00Z phillbush_ joined #scheme 2021-03-22T20:28:08Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:28:09Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:31:20Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:31:58Z casaca joined #scheme 2021-03-22T20:36:51Z phwalkr quit 2021-03-22T20:37:02Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-22T20:41:23Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-22T20:47:08Z dpk: Zipheir: could be specifically targetting repos on GitHub with no LICENSE file at all, which is how GH itself picks up licence information. in the SRFI's case, the licence text is elsewhere, so GH doesn't notice it, so their spambot presumably doesn't 2021-03-22T20:52:55Z phillbush_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T20:52:59Z jcowan: Zipheir: In the sense that the license is rapidly adopted, or in the sense that software using the license is rapidly adopted? Clearly your spam is interested in the latter case. 2021-03-22T20:53:16Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-22T20:53:19Z jcowan: s/the license/the MIT license 2021-03-22T21:07:32Z Zipheir: dpk: Good point. That's probably what they're doing. 2021-03-22T21:09:15Z Zipheir: jcowan: In the sense that the license is being widely adopted, e.g. https://github.blog/2015-03-09-open-source-license-usage-on-github-com/ (outdated, but it's probably above 44% on GitHub by now.) 2021-03-22T21:18:20Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T21:18:42Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-22T21:20:39Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:23:27Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-03-22T21:29:45Z GoZoner joined #scheme 2021-03-22T21:30:06Z GoZoner quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-22T21:36:17Z Sathiana quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:45:21Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:47:28Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-22T21:53:32Z dan64- joined #scheme 2021-03-22T21:54:56Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-22T21:55:45Z mzan: BTW I note that many of the links do not mention GPLv3 vs GPLv3+ 2021-03-22T21:56:14Z mzan: For example https://github.com/ansible/ansible is GPLv3+ but GitHub mentions GPLv3. 2021-03-22T21:56:23Z dpk: Zipheir: a friend used Google-fu and found https://gist.github.com/hobu/a30e30db1abfc610eebc91e6f6627760, which is from the same people but asks for GPL instead 2021-03-22T21:56:35Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-22T21:57:51Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-22T21:58:08Z dpk wonders which ethics board approved spamming people and contributing to software licence proliferation by recommending different licences for no apparent reason 2021-03-22T21:59:53Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T21:59:56Z wasamasa: must be an a/b test 2021-03-22T22:00:11Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-22T22:01:25Z dpk: a number of my repos either deliberately do not have licences, or have them in odd places (if there’s no licence, i simply put a notice linking to djb’s explanation of software users’ rights in copyrighted software they legally obtained but have no explicit FOSS licence for, or a summary of it, in a file called COPYRIGHT; or if i abandoned the copyright sometimes i put a notice to that effect in PUBLICDOMAIN) 2021-03-22T22:01:58Z dpk: but i’m mostly on GitLab now, where they probably aren’t looking at all 2021-03-22T22:04:45Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-22T22:05:33Z ft joined #scheme 2021-03-22T22:07:11Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T22:09:43Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-22T22:10:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-22T22:22:12Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-22T22:27:20Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-22T22:41:38Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-22T22:56:33Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-22T23:00:48Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-22T23:02:31Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-22T23:03:25Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-22T23:10:31Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-22T23:14:57Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-22T23:26:27Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-22T23:27:37Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-22T23:30:39Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-22T23:44:38Z wklew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-22T23:53:41Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-22T23:56:41Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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(Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-23T09:00:19Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-23T09:00:51Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-23T09:18:07Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-23T09:24:36Z ChoHag joined #scheme 2021-03-23T09:38:35Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-23T09:38:58Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-23T10:15:04Z amirouche: I read some of sqltite and sqlite lsm extension code 2021-03-23T10:15:19Z amirouche: the VFS part is mostly about portability across a wide range of OS 2021-03-23T10:16:03Z amirouche: tl;dr: it is not as easy as I thought. 2021-03-23T10:16:18Z amirouche: My design works only with a single-writer AND a single-reader. 2021-03-23T10:17:08Z amirouche: which is too little for my use case. 2021-03-23T10:25:37Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-23T10:25:58Z amirouche: With a single-writer and multiple reader, I have an idea with a journal (log) and linked list. 1) The transaction writes all delete and set operations in the journal 2) there is another file with the linked list (LL), periodically a thread will apply the ops from the journal to the LL, that means that reading the LL requires many random reads and writes (that is ok), it also easier to have key and 2021-03-23T10:26:00Z amirouche: value with fixed / max size. 2021-03-23T10:26:44Z amirouche: forget it, it does not work, the LL should be versioned somehow. 2021-03-23T10:35:28Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T10:40:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-23T10:44:38Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-23T10:45:02Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T10:45:17Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-23T10:51:00Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-23T10:54:51Z ChoHag: Does anyone know of any test suites which exhaustively probe a scheme implementation? 2021-03-23T11:00:11Z ChoHag: Unrelatedly, should (lambda) be considered a syntax error as would (lamba x . y) be, or insufficient arguments? Likewise (cons)? 2021-03-23T11:04:38Z wasamasa: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r7rs-tests.scm 2021-03-23T11:06:26Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T11:11:15Z ChoHag: Thanks. 2021-03-23T11:12:05Z ChoHag: Gotta love that inline documentation... 2021-03-23T11:17:41Z GoGi quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-03-23T11:19:00Z GoGi joined #scheme 2021-03-23T11:26:39Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-23T11:35:45Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-23T11:39:43Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-23T11:40:00Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T11:52:02Z amirouche: ChoHag: there is also https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-coverage 2021-03-23T11:53:36Z amirouche: it would be neat to have a conformance test suite. 2021-03-23T11:53:38Z amirouche: yapluka! 2021-03-23T11:57:36Z ChoHag: I was hoping I wouldn't have to write one :( 2021-03-23T11:58:51Z amirouche: I was half joking / half serious. AFAIU an official test suite would lend toward R6RS MUSTard. 2021-03-23T12:06:54Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-23T12:08:31Z amirouche: ChoHag: look into airship scheme maybe 2021-03-23T12:09:23Z amirouche: nvm, there is not a lot of tests. 2021-03-23T12:09:23Z jcowan: foof's has 966 tests and ecraven has 513 (not counting trivial "identifier is present" tests) 2021-03-23T12:10:10Z jcowan: But as the Smalltalk folks say, "If 3+4 works [when typed into the REPL], everything works." 2021-03-23T12:10:18Z ChoHag: Oh. I have 155 tests and I've barely even begun. 2021-03-23T12:11:46Z amirouche: ChoHag: where is the code ? 2021-03-23T12:12:11Z ChoHag: ~/src/fs9/t/*.pl 2021-03-23T12:12:21Z amirouche: ahah ok 2021-03-23T12:12:34Z ChoHag: Airship scheme is proving itself difficult to find. 2021-03-23T12:12:53Z amirouche: ChoHag: there is not a lot of tests https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/master/tests/tests.lisp 2021-03-23T12:12:56Z ChoHag: Lots of war talk. 2021-03-23T12:13:14Z ChoHag: Thanks. 2021-03-23T12:13:26Z amirouche: I was thinking about airship scheme because it is a recent implementation 2021-03-23T12:13:26Z jcowan: Note that these tests are written in CL 2021-03-23T12:13:38Z amirouche: that target R7RS 2021-03-23T12:13:57Z jcowan: Guy Steele's three-part test for CL implementations: 2021-03-23T12:14:23Z ChoHag: Oh airship is scheming lisp. 2021-03-23T12:14:38Z amirouche: ChoHag: there is also cyclone scheme that is recent: https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/blob/master/tests/unit-tests.scm 2021-03-23T12:14:41Z jcowan: 1. If you type T into the REPL and it prints T, it passes. (That's #t in Scheme.) 2021-03-23T12:15:12Z amirouche: (I focused on recent implementation because there would be less compatibility code or tests with previous RnRS) 2021-03-23T12:15:16Z jcowan: 2. Define the factorial function. Type (/ (factorial 1000) (factorial 999)). If it returns 1000, it passes. 2021-03-23T12:15:44Z jcowan: 3. Type "(atanh -2)". If you get a complex number, the test passes. Extra points if it returns the *correct* complex number. 2021-03-23T12:17:41Z jcowan: (which if you are curious is -0.54930615+1.5707964i, but in double precision for Scheme) 2021-03-23T12:18:05Z amirouche: How is that relevant? :) 2021-03-23T12:18:13Z amirouche: wrt to testing scheme? 2021-03-23T12:18:14Z jcowan: "It was a long time before any Common Lisp implementation passed test 3." 2021-03-23T12:18:52Z jcowan: I'm saying that if you are using tests to evaluate an implementation as opposed to debugging it, a few tests actually test a great deal more than you'd think. 2021-03-23T12:20:02Z ChoHag: How do you find the bugs to debug them without at least ad-hoc testing? 2021-03-23T12:20:23Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:20:27Z wasamasa: by using it 2021-03-23T12:21:38Z jcowan: Which is not to say that by running the foof/ecraven tests you don't find out a lot about your implementation-in-progress. 2021-03-23T12:23:13Z ChoHag: Are they online? 2021-03-23T12:23:52Z jcowan: See the last two links posted 2021-03-23T12:24:00Z amirouche: foof = chibi, ecraven = r7rs-coverage 2021-03-23T12:24:15Z ChoHag: Ah. 2021-03-23T12:24:49Z amirouche: fwiw, when I tried to implement scheme -> javascript compiler, I built a test suite myself based on the features I wanted to add / support. 2021-03-23T12:25:41Z amirouche: also, existing test suite expect a lot, whereas my compiler could not even do `(assert (equal? #t #t))` 2021-03-23T12:26:06Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T12:26:13Z amirouche: (I mean at some point it was possible, but when starting it was not) 2021-03-23T12:26:38Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T12:26:58Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T12:27:19Z jcowan: In addition, the R7RS-small standard provides an immense amount of leeway to implementers, so that it is difficult to test only things that are guaranteed to be available. 2021-03-23T12:29:11Z ChoHag: At the moment I'm trying to figure out what sort of test suite I want to write, rather than the tests themselves. 2021-03-23T12:29:47Z amirouche: is it an interpreter or compiler ? 2021-03-23T12:29:54Z ChoHag: Yes. 2021-03-23T12:29:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-23T12:30:14Z amirouche: ? 2021-03-23T12:30:31Z ChoHag: It doesn't compile to native machine code but to a self-hosted bytecode. 2021-03-23T12:30:44Z amirouche: Anyway, here is what I used to test my compiler: https://github.com/amirouche/ruse/tree/master/tests 2021-03-23T12:30:48Z ChoHag: I'm ripping the guts of s9fes out, for context. 2021-03-23T12:31:07Z amirouche: Each test is built with two files 1) an input program 2) expected return value. 2021-03-23T12:31:47Z amirouche: (re ripping the guts of s9fes, I should read more code, I keep trying to invent things) 2021-03-23T12:32:24Z ChoHag: Code should be more readable. 2021-03-23T12:32:36Z ChoHag: Knuth got it. 2021-03-23T12:33:09Z jcowan: (R6RS, on the other hand, has a fuller test suite which is available as part of Loko.) 2021-03-23T12:33:33Z ChoHag: But otoh he made TeX, so I'm not sure. 2021-03-23T12:34:20Z amirouche: I was said TeX is one of the few program without bugs.. I am repeating the same foolish claim idealizing Knuth. 2021-03-23T12:34:27Z jcowan: The code of TeX is almost certainly the most readable program (of its size) that has ever been written. 2021-03-23T12:34:31Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T12:34:48Z ChoHag: Yeah but it allows things to be written in TeX. 2021-03-23T12:36:25Z jcowan: True. But no one is supposed to write in plain TeX (or plain troff, for that matter), but both allow the finest possible control of any markup language. 2021-03-23T12:36:26Z turtleman joined #scheme 2021-03-23T12:36:47Z ChoHag: One thing motivating my implementation is that I want to shove scheme and TeX/WEB together somehow. 2021-03-23T12:36:48Z jcowan: LaTeX is a deliberate imitation of an older markup language 2021-03-23T12:37:04Z jcowan: Noweb is probably your friend 2021-03-23T12:37:26Z ChoHag: I can't remember why I didn't like that. 2021-03-23T12:37:51Z ChoHag: I earmarked it to come back to to traul for ideas though when I have something to implement them with. 2021-03-23T12:38:30Z ChoHag: Did they give up on the TeX association? 2021-03-23T12:41:02Z jcowan: You probably want the -L switch to block indentation control, or your Scheme will look sad. 2021-03-23T12:44:15Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-23T12:44:27Z ChoHag: Oh god noweb has a web ring. 2021-03-23T12:44:49Z ChoHag: I haven't seen one of those in years. 2021-03-23T12:45:03Z amirouche: 1990 called, they want their ring back ;) 2021-03-23T12:46:20Z ChoHag: amirouche: Do you test for any failures? 2021-03-23T12:50:14Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-23T12:50:47Z amirouche: ChoHag: no. 2021-03-23T12:53:29Z X-Scale: Now that you mentioned TeX source code, check page 16. On function input_ln you have a line with this Knuth's pearl: "last <- first; { cf. Matthew 19:30 }" 2021-03-23T12:53:31Z X-Scale: http://www.tug.org/texlive//Contents/live/texmf-dist/doc/generic/knuth/tex/tex.pdf 2021-03-23T12:58:14Z jcowan lols irl 2021-03-23T13:00:19Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:00:40Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:01:18Z jcowan: The modern (post-1945) idea of an expensive engagement ring was triggered by the abolition in the U.S. of lawsuits for breach of promise of marriage. By socially pressuring the groom-to-be to buy an expensive item as a gift for the bride-to-be, this served as the equivalent of damages in the lawsuit. So asking for the ring back would be the act of an unscrupulous scoundrel. 2021-03-23T13:03:43Z jcowan: De Beers, aka Big Diamond, coined the slogan "A diamond is foreever" and launched a huge national marketing campaign, and for a while 80% of all diamonds imported into the U.S. were used in engagement rings. By about 1980, this tapered off, with women no longer seen as broken or semi-broken in this engaged-but-unmarried situation. 2021-03-23T13:04:11Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T13:04:32Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:05:12Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:05:36Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:08:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:08:33Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:09:07Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:09:13Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:09:35Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:11:13Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T13:11:35Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:15:18Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:15:38Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:18:17Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:18:40Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:19:13Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:20:17Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T13:20:40Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:22:19Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:22:25Z m1dow joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:24:23Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:28:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:28:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:31:19Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:31:42Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:31:55Z corpix_ joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:32:29Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:32:29Z corpix quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:32:57Z amirouche: how would you call a promise or future object that can be fired multiple times? 2021-03-23T13:33:15Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:33:22Z amirouche: Maybe it is better to call it mailbox and make the queue max size configurable. 2021-03-23T13:35:44Z amirouche: it is not the queue size that must be fixed, but the number of times it may be fired. There is two cases, 1) the mailbox expect a single message, 2) the mailbox does not care about the number of messages. 2021-03-23T13:36:02Z m1dow quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:36:36Z amirouche: I think I got it. I only need to support the second case. 2021-03-23T13:37:08Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:41:36Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:49:31Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:49:55Z LeoNerd: amirouche: That's a very interesting question. As the author of https://metacpan.org/pod/Future and the entire related ecosystem around Perl, I would verymuch like an answer to that question too :) 2021-03-23T13:49:57Z LeoNerd: Let me know if you find one 2021-03-23T13:54:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:55:15Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T13:55:37Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T13:58:08Z turtleman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T13:58:32Z jcowan: amirouche: If it does not memoize, I would call it a "thunk" (or "zero arity procedure"). An example is `random`. 2021-03-23T14:02:19Z jcowan: LeoNerd: I would appreciate it very much if you, as a subject matter expert, would review https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/FuturesCowan.md 2021-03-23T14:02:38Z LeoNerd: Ooh /me reads over lunch 2021-03-23T14:03:00Z jcowan: Note that this is a fork-join system and is meant to be supplemented by Go channels. 2021-03-23T14:03:18Z LeoNerd: Ah yes CSP stuff 2021-03-23T14:03:37Z ChoHag: Is thunk specifically 0-arity? 2021-03-23T14:03:55Z LeoNerd: Yes but moreover a thunk is pull-based. It won't *do* anything until you ask it to do something 2021-03-23T14:03:57Z ChoHag: I thought it was also about their purpose, being a callback/continuation type thing. 2021-03-23T14:04:12Z LeoNerd: Whereas the entire point of a promise/future is about being a passive observer that some other task has now finished. 2021-03-23T14:04:35Z LeoNerd: The task does whatever it's going to do regardless of whomever is observing its result future.. the future is just where the result will be posted when it's available 2021-03-23T14:05:57Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-23T14:08:28Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T14:10:13Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T14:12:06Z ChoHag: Oh bah. I meant to think about the testing thing while I was doing the washing up. I only remembered now. 2021-03-23T14:13:00Z ChoHag: Instead, jcowan, I was thinking about how in addition Big Beers were subtly reminding people that you wouldn't buy an engagement ring with a *manufactured* diamond. 2021-03-23T14:13:19Z ChoHag: What with them being a billion times cheaper and technically superior in every way. 2021-03-23T14:14:04Z ChoHag: So thanks that was a productive hour. 2021-03-23T14:15:50Z jcowan: THe first commercial gem-quality diamonds weren't produced until 1971, though. 2021-03-23T14:16:36Z ChoHag: They were being produced though. They saw the writing on the wall. 2021-03-23T14:18:48Z jcowan: De Beers is now marketing synthetics, finally, as sparkly pretty stones quite distinct from diamonds (although the process they are using apparently mimics the lack of fluorescense in natural clear diamonds, which earlier proocesses did not. Still, they are making them for US$300 and selling them for $800, so they are still doing all right. 2021-03-23T14:18:56Z jcowan: (per carat) 2021-03-23T14:19:47Z jcowan: For one thing, synthetics eliminate the "blood diamond" issue, which is a turn-off to a lot of people. 2021-03-23T14:20:31Z ChoHag: What? Don't you think that presenting someone with a lump of shiny coal dug out of the ground by slave labour is romantic? 2021-03-23T14:20:50Z jcowan: As of 2018, synthetics were still only 2% of the gem diamond market. So apparently no. 2021-03-23T14:21:09Z ChoHag: 2%? 2021-03-23T14:21:18Z ChoHag: That's pretty terrible. 2021-03-23T14:23:11Z jcowan: Fortunately my wife has never liked diamonds, so we skipped the engagement ring altogether in favor of matching non-traditional wedding rings (lacework in silver with an opal); she now also wears my mother's plain gold ring. Unfortunately I am allergic to my ring and can't wear it; attempts to insulate it with clear nail polish have been in vain. 2021-03-23T14:23:57Z ChoHag: I kept mine in my wallet after I put my hands into fresh snow and lost it. 2021-03-23T14:24:36Z jcowan: I thought of wearing it on a chain, but the chain would probably have to be a leather thong instead. 2021-03-23T14:29:56Z amirouche: In renamed the record because one thread might `send` a message, and another will `recv` it. In practice, it is always the same thread that `recv`. I do not think `thunk` works in that case. 2021-03-23T14:32:17Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-23T14:37:28Z amirouche: maybe channel is a better name. 2021-03-23T14:39:16Z Vultyre quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-23T14:40:42Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-03-23T14:40:54Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-23T14:55:33Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:00:17Z jcowan: If it's always the same thread, then it's a queue, and you could use SRFI 117. 2021-03-23T15:16:17Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:16:32Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:16:53Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T15:19:15Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T15:19:36Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:28:43Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T15:30:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:32:56Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-23T15:34:59Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Quit: Gone.) 2021-03-23T15:35:18Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:35:47Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:35:48Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T15:35:48Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:35:48Z copec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T15:35:57Z copec_ joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:35:58Z Raphael[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:35:59Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:26Z Blkt joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:36:26Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:44Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:36:44Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-23T15:36:54Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:37:08Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:37:26Z clacke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:37:29Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:37:41Z M7x[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:37:41Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:38:03Z copec_ is now known as copec 2021-03-23T15:38:08Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:38:22Z romariorios[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-23T15:46:53Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:47:50Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:48:48Z Major_Biscuit quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2021-03-23T15:49:06Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:49:47Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:52:24Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-23T15:54:44Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:00:03Z LeoNerd: jcowan: Hrm... This doc seems to conflate the idea of a future itself, with some sort of thready/tasky-like concept of running it 2021-03-23T16:01:11Z jcowan: Can you elaborate further? What did you find that you did not expect to find? 2021-03-23T16:01:30Z LeoNerd: Hrm, for example: future-specific variables 2021-03-23T16:01:47Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:02:21Z LeoNerd: As compared say, the idea of a "promise" or a "future" in any of Perl/C#/Python/ES6, ... such an object is purely a mailbox for where the result of "some ongoing operation" eventually gets posted. The future/promise object isn't really associated with whatever code might be computing that result. It just observes the end result 2021-03-23T16:02:37Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:03:02Z LeoNerd: This is also talking about quanta of time, suggesting some sort of preëmptive scheduler. Again that's a very thread-like concept 2021-03-23T16:03:34Z LeoNerd: Imean I'm not saying these aren't useful things to have, I'm just not sure I'd call the resulting thing a "future" 2021-03-23T16:03:41Z LeoNerd: It's more of a tasklet 2021-03-23T16:05:43Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:06:56Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:08:12Z clacke joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:08:45Z Raphael[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:08:52Z LeoNerd: You've got the success-vs-failure concept though, which is good. A useful thing to have 2021-03-23T16:09:32Z LeoNerd: When you have futures that are just observes of the completion (or failure) of a task, you find that you then want to have combination ones, that form little convergent trees. 2021-03-23T16:10:18Z LeoNerd: E.g. in Perl we have Future->needs_all($f1, $f2, ...) which returns a Future that completes once all of its components have completed, or fails as soon as any of them fails. Its success result is then the combination of all of them, or the failure is the first failure that aborted it 2021-03-23T16:10:54Z LeoNerd: We also have ->needs_any which yields whatever is the first result to succeed, or fails with the final failure of all its attempts fail. That one is rarely used, but occasionally useful for things like redundant caches or other weird situations 2021-03-23T16:11:49Z M7x[m]1 joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:12:07Z LeoNerd: Another useful one is ->wait_any which yields the (success or failure) result of whatever completes first. That one is useful for doing $f = Future->wait_any( func(), timeout_after(10) ) style stuff. You can now wrap "timeout after N seconds" behaviour around any Future-returning function 2021-03-23T16:13:29Z LeoNerd: Some future/promise systems don't go in for cancellation or abort notification, but Perl's does. So a useful property of the convergent futures is that whenever the result of the whole thing is determined, any of the still-pending components get cancelled. So whatever the function was doing when the timeout occurred, it gets told not to bother continuing, because cancel 2021-03-23T16:14:08Z jcowan: The trouble comes when the thread is holding a lock that will never be unlocked. 2021-03-23T16:14:32Z jcowan: So you can crash the thread, possibly leaving other locks orphaned, and so on. 2021-03-23T16:14:34Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:14:39Z jcowan: Or you can wait, and wait, and wait.... 2021-03-23T16:14:42Z ChoHag: I'd say that was the future's equivalent of proper tail recursion for being not required in theory but essential for any practical use. 2021-03-23T16:15:06Z LeoNerd: Mmm.. well, "holding a lock" isn't really a thing of concern for the Perl one at least.. there's not really a concept 2021-03-23T16:15:19Z jcowan: Or you can break the lock by force, leaving a shared data structure in a bad state. 2021-03-23T16:15:34Z jcowan: Well, okay, "waiting for something to happen" 2021-03-23T16:16:24Z LeoNerd: Hrm... so the other thing most of these langauges all have in common is that they *don't* specify a model of computation.. there's no requirement that these things are separate threads, or anything like that 2021-03-23T16:16:36Z LeoNerd: And at least the Perl/Python/ES6 ones are very much all still single thread 2021-03-23T16:16:54Z LeoNerd: They're ways of basically doing coöperative coroutines within one thread 2021-03-23T16:17:26Z LeoNerd: Especially neat when you use async/await syntax. It means that whenever you don't see an `await` keyword, you know that the code is going to be executed atomically 2021-03-23T16:17:41Z LeoNerd: "preëmption" is not a thing. context switches can only possibly happen around `await` keywords 2021-03-23T16:19:22Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:22:57Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:31:47Z jcowan: In Scheme, all procedures are async/await! 2021-03-23T16:31:55Z jcowan: thanks to the magic of call/cc 2021-03-23T16:32:21Z dpk: jcowan: futures are like threads but the implementation guarantees that they all run on one thread and will only be interrupted at certain points? 2021-03-23T16:32:35Z jcowan: Coroutines, then. 2021-03-23T16:32:55Z jcowan: Which are also available in Scheme, thanks to etc. 2021-03-23T16:35:03Z dpk: must say i would significantly prefer a system where futures have to explicitly give up control of the thread. you're right that we don't have to introduce async-coloured functions like JS, Python, etc all have done, but the await keyword is a very handy visible marker that "state might change after this expression returns" 2021-03-23T16:35:37Z dpk: when potentially *any* function call might do blocking IO without my knowledge, that could introduce surprising bugs 2021-03-23T16:36:01Z dpk: *might *have* changed by the time this expression returns, i should say 2021-03-23T16:36:55Z jcowan: Well, any procedure call in Scheme can potentially do blocking I/O, so we are always in the I/O monad (red) rather than the pure system (green). 2021-03-23T16:37:44Z jcowan: But at the bottom of many Schemes is a big I/O multiplexer that provides the illusion of synchronous system calls while actually using async ones. 2021-03-23T16:37:51Z jcowan: (typically in C) 2021-03-23T16:38:06Z LeoNerd: Mmm.. it's all fun and games until your OS doesn't provide you with async versions though 2021-03-23T16:38:31Z LeoNerd: (it annoys me how patchy and incomplete, very non-orthogonal POSIX and Linux are about that) 2021-03-23T16:54:30Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:55:09Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-23T16:55:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T16:56:18Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T16:59:30Z jcowan: That's because they are coerced into a style that breaks the Tao of Unix, which is to use processes for concurrency. 2021-03-23T17:00:26Z jcowan: Preferably shared-nothing processes. Shared memory was added at the demand of database vendors, and threads were added at the demand of Windows programmers, for whom process creation costs a fortune. 2021-03-23T17:00:45Z ChoHag: But I want to run a time-sharing OS in my time-sharing OS! 2021-03-23T17:01:42Z jcowan: If you want VMs, you know where to find them. --Denis Ritchie 2021-03-23T17:31:29Z dpk: threads at least have the advantage that one can pass things other than text between them (and that without IO system calls, which are infinitely more expensive than a simple 'here, have this pointer') 2021-03-23T17:32:54Z dpk: (technically you can also pass other fds between processes in Unix, but i suspect the number of unix users who know that is fairly low) 2021-03-23T17:35:18Z ChoHag: Resource sharing could be better. 2021-03-23T17:42:06Z amirouche: LeoNerd: I read the async nerd in your writing from the backlog 2021-03-23T17:42:53Z LeoNerd: Mmm? 2021-03-23T17:43:48Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-23T17:44:10Z amirouche: re context switches can only possibly happen around `await` keywords: second or third I read that and it is not my writing :) 2021-03-23T17:44:32Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-03-23T17:44:40Z amirouche: tho, context switched are possibly a difficult topic in the context of shared state, otherwise, it is ok?! 2021-03-23T17:44:48Z amirouche: switches* 2021-03-23T17:45:20Z LeoNerd: shared mutable state between concurrent actors is a big no-no for race conditions, safety from bugs, etc... 2021-03-23T17:45:36Z LeoNerd: Various languages or programming concepts fix that by removing one of those three elements 2021-03-23T17:46:02Z LeoNerd: E.g. traditional C+UNIX doesn't have concurrent actors, so any mutable state is fine. 2021-03-23T17:46:19Z LeoNerd: Haskell doesn't (really) have mutable state, so it's fine to permit shared readonly state between concurrent actors 2021-03-23T17:46:42Z LeoNerd: Perl's threading model doesn't easily permit shared-mutable state, so every thread gets its own private mutable storage, acting mostly like UNIX forks 2021-03-23T17:47:34Z amirouche: still you can have a global and mutate it from one greenthread, pause that greenthread, resume the first greenthread in a new world. 2021-03-23T17:48:10Z amirouche: I guess that's why there is asyncio.Lock 2021-03-23T17:48:49Z LeoNerd: You might be thinking of Python, with the asyncio there 2021-03-23T17:49:05Z amirouche: There is no global variables in Perl? 2021-03-23T17:49:09Z LeoNerd: Perl permits shared mutables, with :shared 2021-03-23T17:49:23Z LeoNerd: my $count :shared; will be one variable shared by all the threads 2021-03-23T17:49:54Z LeoNerd: Threading in Perl is little-used. The original implementation was created to emulate fork() on Windows, because traditionally lots of code was very UNIX-centric, and had trouble with that concept on Windows 2021-03-23T17:50:19Z LeoNerd: So the threading model was created to behave like fork(), with its "copy of parent" semantics 2021-03-23T17:50:30Z amirouche: hmm ok 2021-03-23T17:50:54Z LeoNerd: That meant that basically any code could work nicely with it; code doesn't have to be specially written to be "thread-safe", because by default you don't get any shared-mutable state unless you specifically requested it 2021-03-23T17:51:07Z amirouche: I was thinking about what happens during: await somefunc() 2021-03-23T17:51:14Z LeoNerd: It was mostly a compatibilty reason to not break allll of CPAN when adding Windows ;) 2021-03-23T17:51:48Z LeoNerd: suspend and resume. The function containing the `await` expression gets frozen basically, into a suspended copy of itself 2021-03-23T17:51:56Z LeoNerd: That gets resumed later on when the future it was waiting on is completed 2021-03-23T17:52:35Z LeoNerd: It's a coroutine. A coöperative coroutine with explicitly written yield points 2021-03-23T17:53:03Z amirouche: what about the variable outside the function in (lexical?) scope? 2021-03-23T17:53:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-23T17:53:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-23T17:53:27Z LeoNerd: Those just behave as normal. async/await and futures don't imply any sort of threading 2021-03-23T17:53:28Z amirouche: I mean, when the coroutine is paused, the world around it can change. 2021-03-23T17:53:31Z LeoNerd: There's just one thread going on 2021-03-23T17:54:05Z LeoNerd: Absolutely. Which is why the `await` keyword is nicely clear and bold and explicit about what it is doing. We may pause here and come back later 2021-03-23T17:54:12Z LeoNerd: Which means, the state of the surrounding world around you may have changed 2021-03-23T17:54:28Z LeoNerd: If you wanted an atomic snapshot of that state you'd best have made your own local copy of it 2021-03-23T17:54:38Z amirouche: many people I try to explain that, do not understand (prolly my fault) 2021-03-23T17:55:02Z LeoNerd: my $counter; ... async sub func { my $was_count = $counter; await otherfunc(); ... } 2021-03-23T17:55:07Z amirouche: By the way, on a related topic, cooperative scheduling with async / await, do you tell that is "concurrent, but not parallel"? 2021-03-23T17:55:22Z LeoNerd: So, after that await we know our _own_ copy of the counter will be what it was before, but we don't know if anyone else has modified the counter while we were suspended 2021-03-23T17:55:30Z ChoHag: It's a bit weird to think of coming back into a computation, ie. restoring state, when that state may have changed. 2021-03-23T17:55:45Z LeoNerd: Sometimes. It depends if I want to get into explaining the subtle distinction between concurrent and parallel 2021-03-23T17:55:52Z LeoNerd: Often I find it isn't really necessary 2021-03-23T17:55:59Z amirouche: LeoNerd: yup, thanks. 2021-03-23T17:56:38Z LeoNerd: Honestly, ... I help look after a team of mostly-perl-newbies looking after a big soup of microservice, HTTP, remote RPC, and other such fun code, with lots of async/await scattered about. The subtle distinction between concurrent and true-parallel doesn't really come up 2021-03-23T17:57:10Z LeoNerd: You spend so much time blocked on IO, so kernel deschedules you in favour of other /processes/ that are copies of the same worker code anyway... 2021-03-23T17:57:39Z amirouche: it comes up when you consider there is several http handlers in multiple process or machines. 2021-03-23T17:57:42Z amirouche: yup 2021-03-23T17:57:51Z ChoHag: I feel like there's a Knuth quote in here. 2021-03-23T17:58:49Z LeoNerd: I tend to do large-systems concurrency by lots of small workers all connected up; there isn't much hoizontal sharing of data going on anyway 2021-03-23T17:59:00Z amirouche: LeoNerd: I just made my first microservice using async / await at work, I plan to favor that approach onwards because it AFAIU allows to rely less on even more microservices, since you can spawn a greenthread in the background that is not cpu bound, and make progress.. 2021-03-23T17:59:23Z LeoNerd: in what language? 2021-03-23T17:59:29Z amirouche: Python. 2021-03-23T17:59:54Z amirouche: spawn a greenthreand = start a new coroutine. 2021-03-23T18:00:05Z LeoNerd: Mm.. yeah Python was one of the languages I copied the async/await syntax from.. along with C# and ES6 2021-03-23T18:01:24Z amirouche: Anyway, my point was and is still, if you do not have very pressing latency requirements, go async. 2021-03-23T18:01:28Z LeoNerd: The Raku (formerly Perl 6) lot got a bit upset I didn't copy their model 2021-03-23T18:01:41Z LeoNerd: But I stand by my decision - it turns out a great number of other languages are all doing the same thing 2021-03-23T18:01:52Z LeoNerd: It makes Raku feel the odd one out, in comparison 2021-03-23T18:01:59Z amirouche: what does Raku does ? 2021-03-23T18:02:22Z LeoNerd: They have an `await`-like keyword, but no `async` marking on a function. any function -could- be async 2021-03-23T18:02:32Z LeoNerd: in some weird "kinda guess what I probably mean" sort of way 2021-03-23T18:02:51Z jcowan: dpk: You can pass any arbitrary thing that has a byte serialization, though text is of course the most common. 2021-03-23T18:02:53Z LeoNerd: It feels like they've missed half the point 2021-03-23T18:02:59Z amirouche: that is what I used to do, today I completly remove the await procedure. 2021-03-23T18:04:44Z dpk: jcowan: true, but serialization + IO system calls + deserialization is a major hassle, even if your serialization is binary (in which case it's only less of a hassle) 2021-03-23T18:05:09Z jcowan: It sure eliminates coupling, though. 2021-03-23T18:05:20Z ChoHag: Is serialisation of something that refers to something external with its own state even possible? 2021-03-23T18:06:38Z ChoHag: You can only mark that section of the map 'here be volatiles'. 2021-03-23T18:06:49Z jcowan: True. 2021-03-23T18:06:56Z LeoNerd: Most systems also give you some ability to do shared memory, as well 2021-03-23T18:07:18Z LeoNerd: So you can often serialize into a shared memory blob, then hand that over by passing a small message about it through a pipe/etc... 2021-03-23T18:07:30Z jcowan: But in general if I close a file/port/stream, you won't have access to it either. 2021-03-23T18:09:12Z jcowan: Using shared memory means someone has to manage it, unless you have multi-process GC. 2021-03-23T18:10:31Z ChoHag: I reckon if you're going to share something like that between threads, any thread is going to have to re-check that resource every time it gains control if it wants to use it. 2021-03-23T18:10:39Z ChoHag: So, in general, don't do that. 2021-03-23T18:11:48Z jcowan: I thought we were talking about processes and Sys V shared memory 2021-03-23T18:12:05Z ChoHag: Eh. Same thing. 2021-03-23T18:12:31Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-23T18:12:37Z ChoHag: It's just a question of who switches the context - you or the kernel (except usually both are done by the kernel because why keep things simple?) 2021-03-23T18:18:39Z jcowan: User threads are often multiplexed on kernel threads, especially in multicore systems: one per kernel thread plus one for anti-malware 2021-03-23T18:19:03Z jcowan: But an intraprocess GC is a lot simpler problem than an interprocess one. 2021-03-23T18:19:55Z LeoNerd: I was talking about making message-passing slightly more efficient than having to bytewise-serialise something to write() it into a pipe only to have some other process read() it again 2021-03-23T18:20:08Z ChoHag: Yeah in that case the kernel just does a bunch of user space's heave lifting. 2021-03-23T18:20:08Z jcowan: The early distributed system called the Cambridge Ring had an off-machine GC for its file servers, because arbitrary graphs were allowed 2021-03-23T18:32:56Z Zipheir: Is this expected behavior from the default comparator on lists? ( #f 2021-03-23T18:33:50Z Zipheir: Oh, and then we have, oddly enough: (<=? (make-default-comparator) '((0 . 0)) '((1 . 1))) ;; => #t 2021-03-23T18:37:10Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T18:42:00Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-23T18:46:45Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-23T18:49:15Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-23T18:50:00Z amirouche: I do not think so. 2021-03-23T18:52:20Z jcowan: Lists are compared lexicograpically 2021-03-23T18:53:08Z jcowan: that last one seems wrong, certainly 2021-03-23T18:53:20Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-23T18:53:59Z Zipheir: Why is the last one wrong? Surely (0 . 0) < (1 . 1) 2021-03-23T18:56:13Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-23T19:06:03Z jcowan: sorry, misread the operaators 2021-03-23T19:08:18Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-23T19:08:20Z jcowan: might be a bug in pair-comparator 2021-03-23T19:09:54Z jcowan: Oh wait, 0 =? 0, so it looks at the cdrs and 1 is not _< 2021-03-24T03:51:54Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-24T03:52:14Z amirouche: Nothing works against the mighty great hungry capitalism. 2021-03-24T03:52:32Z amirouche: (that destroyed the planet) 2021-03-24T03:54:32Z Zipheir: Well, I'm afraid that bending copyright law to try to disallow wars isn't going to do it. 2021-03-24T03:56:23Z Sathiana joined #scheme 2021-03-24T03:56:29Z marusich joined #scheme 2021-03-24T03:57:02Z amirouche: it is not just war but anything related to violence :] 2021-03-24T03:57:09Z amirouche: ... 2021-03-24T03:57:28Z amirouche: I understand it is far fetched, but so was GPL when it came out. 2021-03-24T03:58:04Z amirouche: I consider that LICENSE more like a flag, than something that can be enforced, anyway I do not have the moeny to enforce it. 2021-03-24T03:58:11Z amirouche: It might scare amazon tho. 2021-03-24T04:03:56Z Zipheir: amirouche: The meanings of licenses are very much determined by courts and international trade law. 2021-03-24T04:05:06Z Zipheir: amirouche: The GPL and AGPL stick to very specific licensing and distribution requirements, but, as you say, even with those there was a question of whether courts would consider them legally valid licenses. 2021-03-24T04:07:13Z Zipheir: I mention the FSF because (a) they recognize the GitHub proprietary-on-top-of-FOSS model as a problem, and (b) they have enough smart copyright lawyers to say that they *don't* think that some kind of anti-SAAS license is enforceable. 2021-03-24T04:11:27Z Sathiana quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-24T04:12:44Z amirouche: many people think FSF is compromised by FAANG money (re smalltech / smallweb re Aral B.) hence their point of view / position is biased. 2021-03-24T04:14:21Z Zipheir: Maybe so. In any case, the kind of person to talk to about "moral" licenses is an "intellectual property" lawyer (which I certainly am not). 2021-03-24T04:15:08Z amirouche: no worries. 2021-03-24T04:15:47Z amirouche: Anyway, I got an idea about a project where the license does not matter. And it can not be used without a lot of imagination against my will / intention. 2021-03-24T04:17:48Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T04:17:56Z mdhughes: I would think that you could list fields of industry, or industrialized murder, which are not permitted to use your software. Any position can be argued by a lawyer, they don't believe in objective reality only what they can argue from cases. 2021-03-24T04:20:06Z mdhughes: When I did more mainstream software, I was employed by corporations who are just financial/tech services. I've done some sysadmin work for the Federal government, with many military personnel involved but it wasn't a murder business. 2021-03-24T04:20:43Z mdhughes: Now, my software's too weird for anyone to care, so I don't really *need* to prohibit pigs, murderers, and polluters from using it. 2021-03-24T04:21:24Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-24T04:26:43Z Zipheir: No need to worry about the pigs, unless they evolve opposable thumbs. 2021-03-24T04:26:54Z amirouche: I got an idea about a project where the license does not matter. And it can not be used without a lot of imagination against my will / intention. 2021-03-24T04:29:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-24T04:30:19Z mdhughes: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pig 2021-03-24T04:32:13Z amirouche: pigs are empirically not sufficent, and theorically not necassary. 2021-03-24T04:34:09Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T04:34:13Z Zipheir: Also, not very related to the Scheme programming language. 2021-03-24T04:37:00Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-24T04:47:07Z epony quit (Quit: upgrade) 2021-03-24T04:50:55Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-24T04:56:29Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T05:01:27Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-24T05:04:16Z ChoHag: Pigs are not sufficient for breakfast but they are very necessary. 2021-03-24T05:05:51Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-24T05:06:19Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:07:37Z ChoHag: Why does how other people use software you've written matter? 2021-03-24T05:15:20Z mdhughes: An explanation of morality is even further off-topic than licensing terms. Some of us care whether we have done good or ill, made the world a better or worse place. 2021-03-24T05:17:03Z siraben: amirouche: +1 for Emacs, can't imagine using git without magit 2021-03-24T05:21:24Z Zipheir: "I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that!" (Tom Lehrer) 2021-03-24T05:22:08Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:22:13Z dieggsy: siraben: there's something about magit where tarisus has somehow figured out pretty much the perfect UI for git lol 2021-03-24T05:23:36Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:24:00Z siraben: indeed, especially when (Zipheir's gonna hate me saying this) rearranging commits and quick amends 2021-03-24T05:24:20Z siraben: dieggsy: the performance could be better, or maybe that's just when I have thousands of dirty files in nixpkgs, hm. 2021-03-24T05:24:27Z siraben: then I could use the command line 2021-03-24T05:24:46Z dieggsy: i've never had issues with it's performance 2021-03-24T05:24:49Z dieggsy: its* 2021-03-24T05:24:51Z cjb quit 2021-03-24T05:24:54Z siraben: try very large repos 2021-03-24T05:25:03Z dieggsy: siraben: describe 'very large' 2021-03-24T05:25:15Z siraben: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs 2021-03-24T05:25:22Z siraben: this is the latest repo I work with 2021-03-24T05:26:37Z siraben: is there any sort of measurement I can do with git that gets across how big it is 2021-03-24T05:26:42Z dieggsy: siraben: ah. what part of it is slow though? just generally interacting with magit, or is there a particular action that's slow 2021-03-24T05:26:54Z dieggsy: i'm cloning it cause whatevs 2021-03-24T05:26:58Z dieggsy: lol 2021-03-24T05:27:13Z siraben: lol have fun, you'll see what I mean 2021-03-24T05:27:27Z siraben: dieggsy: ah ok, so when I perform actions that affect hundreds of files (like sed replacement of pkgconfig to pkg-config), staging files is _very_ slow 2021-03-24T05:27:38Z siraben: press s once and wait like 10 seconds 2021-03-24T05:27:51Z dieggsy: Oh, i see 2021-03-24T05:27:59Z siraben: might be related to emacs buffer rendering and whatnot 2021-03-24T05:28:22Z dieggsy: yeah, nothing in my workflow is similar to that at all so 2021-03-24T05:28:50Z dieggsy: siraben: somewhat relatedly was it you that mentioned you're using native-comp? (i am now fwiw) - if so, did you notice this helped? 2021-03-24T05:29:37Z siraben: Yeah I use the native-comp branch, I think it does help, just with elisp in general 2021-03-24T05:29:51Z siraben: but it may be necessary to do an asymptotic improvement 2021-03-24T05:30:27Z dieggsy: at some point he had started work on (or at least considered) a libgit implementation 2021-03-24T05:30:40Z dieggsy: dunno if that went anywhere or what 2021-03-24T05:30:56Z dieggsy: one of the concerns was also that it's slow over tramp? or something 2021-03-24T05:31:09Z siraben: is it just me or helm + tramp is a vey slow combination? 2021-03-24T05:31:17Z siraben: heh maybe this belongs in #emacs 2021-03-24T05:31:54Z mdhughes: Zipheir: Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio 2021-03-24T05:37:13Z Zipheir: That whole album is great. 2021-03-24T05:38:31Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-24T05:43:31Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T05:52:58Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-24T05:55:03Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-24T05:57:22Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T06:01:19Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-24T06:09:37Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T06:28:29Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-24T06:30:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-24T06:33:23Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T06:35:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T06:37:54Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Quit: Turning off a portion of this simulation.) 2021-03-24T06:37:55Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-03-24T06:41:53Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T06:42:11Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-24T06:42:42Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T06:43:21Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-24T06:54:21Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T06:55:15Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-24T06:55:22Z ChoHag: Is there something like regular expressions, but hopefully not so arcane, which can match lists/s-expressions? 2021-03-24T06:55:47Z ChoHag: So I can say things like 'a list of three items which are ints' or 'a 3-item list of int (list of 3 ints) int' 2021-03-24T06:56:16Z ChoHag: Or is that simply called "scheme"? 2021-03-24T07:02:52Z shawnw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-24T07:04:36Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T07:05:18Z siraben: ChoHag: even matching nested parentheses is impossible with regex 2021-03-24T07:05:56Z siraben: the language of balanced parens is context-free, whereas plain regex can only parse regular languages 2021-03-24T07:08:44Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-24T07:15:15Z ChoHag: I don't want to balance parenthesis. That's already been done. 2021-03-24T07:16:24Z siraben: ChoHag: what's the grammar that you're parsing? 2021-03-24T07:16:34Z ChoHag: I'm not parsing a grammar. 2021-03-24T07:17:03Z siraben: You asked for regular expressions, so I assume you're parsing a language or grammar of some sort. 2021-03-24T07:17:10Z ChoHag: I want to verify that the structure and content of an s-expression match some description. 2021-03-24T07:17:17Z ChoHag: I said something *like* regular expressions. 2021-03-24T07:17:27Z siraben: What are you trying to do exactly? Is it passed as a string? 2021-03-24T07:17:45Z ChoHag: Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant only the sense of 'a language which describes how to match against some other thing'. 2021-03-24T07:18:07Z siraben: Ah, pattern matching then. Many Schemes have pattern match macros. 2021-03-24T07:18:13Z ChoHag: Write tests for a scheme implementation, thus there will be lots of "make sure the result looks like this". 2021-03-24T07:18:27Z siraben: ChoHag: something like this? https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80/blob/02271316c4ff5ef4907da1e903d32d9241588249/src/assembler.scm#L225 2021-03-24T07:18:54Z ChoHag: Looks possibly right on first glance. 2021-03-24T07:19:09Z siraben: which scheme are you using? 2021-03-24T07:19:14Z ChoHag: Where's match defined? 2021-03-24T07:19:23Z ChoHag: I'm still making it and it's not scheme yet. 2021-03-24T07:19:25Z siraben: It's a guile module 2021-03-24T07:19:36Z siraben: Ok, then what's your implementation language? 2021-03-24T07:19:45Z ChoHag: ... Perl. 2021-03-24T07:19:47Z ChoHag: Don't judge me. 2021-03-24T07:19:58Z siraben: Not judging, heh 2021-03-24T07:20:09Z siraben: Well, shouldn't string comparisons be enough for unit tests? 2021-03-24T07:20:27Z ChoHag: Yes but the idea is to do as little in the host language as I can. 2021-03-24T07:20:41Z tryte_ joined #scheme 2021-03-24T07:20:56Z siraben: I see. At some point you'll need primitive equality though, then you can write something like equal? that will traverse the s-exps 2021-03-24T07:21:10Z tryte quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T07:21:16Z ChoHag: So while I don't have scheme code to run the tests or validate the results, I'm writing the test scripts as though I do and some regex hocus pocus later can s/perl/scheme/. 2021-03-24T07:22:36Z siraben: Start with implementing eqv? https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot/blob/7423d60fb9dbc628528142d788a045076ffcda68/src/SchemeEval.hs#L286 then bootstrap a metacircular interpreter 2021-03-24T07:22:37Z siraben: https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot/blob/master/demo/meta-circ.scm 2021-03-24T07:23:56Z siraben: see how I defined equal? in my Scheme implementation: https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot/blob/84f7b6fac18359e595d2cd939ea6d5bb1b232aa6/demo/meta-circ.scm#L46 2021-03-24T07:24:16Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-24T07:24:30Z ChoHag: The (ice-9 match) module provides a pattern matcher, written by Alex Shinn, and compatible with Andrew K. Wright’s pattern matcher found in many Scheme implementations. 2021-03-24T07:24:42Z ChoHag: What's wrong with Wright's? 2021-03-24T07:25:14Z pranavats joined #scheme 2021-03-24T07:25:15Z siraben: ChoHag: yeah ignore that, since you mentioned you're writing a Scheme 2021-03-24T07:25:15Z siraben: you're going to have to implement hygienic macros if you want to use ice-9 match 2021-03-24T07:25:15Z siraben: heh, I should get rid of that call to recursive since I support that now 2021-03-24T07:27:02Z ChoHag: I'm on http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Pattern-Matching.html and it has a list of different pattern. Is that list complete/is there a formal definition anywhere? 2021-03-24T07:27:21Z siraben: Formal definition of pattern matching? 2021-03-24T07:27:48Z ChoHag: Of what pattern means what. 2021-03-24T07:28:02Z siraben: they elaborate it below 2021-03-24T07:28:10Z siraben: But I don't think you really need this. 2021-03-24T07:28:32Z siraben: Once you have enough primitives you'll be able to write all the tests in Scheme 2021-03-24T07:32:13Z ChoHag: What is ice-9? 2021-03-24T07:32:23Z ChoHag: In particular, why 9? 2021-03-24T07:32:30Z siraben: I don't know. 2021-03-24T07:33:24Z epony quit (Quit: QUIT) 2021-03-24T07:35:18Z frost-lab48 joined #scheme 2021-03-24T07:38:54Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T07:42:35Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-24T07:43:32Z ChoHag: Looks like it's just some internal guile name for reasons lost to the 90s. 2021-03-24T07:45:04Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-24T07:45:56Z siraben: ChoHag: is a good reference for implementation 2021-03-24T07:46:04Z siraben: particularly the formal semantics, if you can read it 2021-03-24T07:46:29Z ChoHag: Yeah but then I'd get gpl all over me. 2021-03-24T07:46:37Z siraben: gpl? 2021-03-24T07:46:48Z siraben: oh oops I meant to paste https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf 2021-03-24T07:46:53Z ChoHag: Oh. 2021-03-24T07:47:07Z siraben: it has a formal syntax and semantics in section 7 2021-03-24T07:47:15Z ChoHag: Yeah I have that. And 4 and 7. 2021-03-24T07:47:32Z siraben: maybe I should read r7rs and see how different it is from r5rs 2021-03-24T07:47:42Z ChoHag: 6 looks like the bastard stepchild nobody wanted so I ignored it. 2021-03-24T07:47:48Z siraben: did you see the formal semantics? 2021-03-24T07:47:59Z ChoHag: It's not particularly different. A few new constructs mostly. 2021-03-24T07:48:17Z siraben: I mean the formal denotational semantics 2021-03-24T07:48:18Z siraben: it's a bit opaque at first but actually translates into a real program 2021-03-24T07:49:22Z siraben: section 7.2 in r5rs.pdf 2021-03-24T07:49:28Z siraben: r7rs* 2021-03-24T07:50:42Z siraben: oh wow I haven't seen these new semantic functions; travel, pointdepth, ancestors, commonancest, pathup, pathdown 2021-03-24T07:50:55Z siraben: dynamicwind 2021-03-24T07:53:08Z siraben: curiously enough, at least in R5, identifiers cannot begin with a number 2021-03-24T07:54:07Z siraben: > The precise rules for forming identifiers vary among implementations of Scheme, but in all implementations a sequence of letters, digits, and “ex-tended alphabetic characters” that begins with a character that cannot begin a number is an identifier." 2021-03-24T07:59:38Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:02:44Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-24T08:08:54Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-24T08:11:44Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:11:58Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-24T08:13:04Z dpk: siraben: that was so that parsers could be implemented that didn’t have to look more than one character ahead at a time. in practice, everyone combined the tokenizer for numbers and symbols into one state and if it came out with a valid number, it was a number, and if not, it was a symbol 2021-03-24T08:13:23Z dpk: but i think R7RS still technically has the same restriction 2021-03-24T08:29:03Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-03-24T08:29:27Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-24T08:31:19Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-24T08:36:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:36:55Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:40:07Z iv4nshm4k0v quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:42:21Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-24T08:47:10Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-24T08:59:41Z oxum_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T09:00:06Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-03-24T09:03:55Z ChoHag: siraben: That wording is from at least r4. 2021-03-24T09:04:03Z ChoHag: Why is it curious that identifiers can't begin with a number? 2021-03-24T09:09:25Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T09:10:18Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-03-24T09:13:31Z mdhughes: It's obviously incorrect. Every sequence of non-terminal chars should be either a number or a symbol, why have indeterminate things? 2021-03-24T09:14:05Z ChoHag: What's 3.2.0? 2021-03-24T09:14:45Z _apg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T09:15:47Z ChoHag: Is 3i a symbol or a complex number? 2021-03-24T09:17:26Z ecraven: mit and chez both say a symbol 2021-03-24T09:17:51Z ChoHag: Sounds broken to me. 2021-03-24T09:19:41Z ecraven: ah, but +3i is valid :D 2021-03-24T09:19:45Z ecraven: as is -3i 2021-03-24T09:23:27Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T09:26:06Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-03-24T09:36:48Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-03-24T09:39:47Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T09:44:52Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T10:07:35Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-24T10:12:30Z siraben: ChoHag: because 3d is an identifier in guile 2021-03-24T10:13:08Z siraben: in my scheme i followed the grammar so that isn't an identifier, but 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joined #scheme 2021-03-24T16:20:03Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:25:43Z amirouche: TIL: epoll merge read and write wakeup events, you need to dup(plicate) file descriptor before calling epoll_ctl to be able to tell whether it is ready for reading or ready for writing. 2021-03-24T16:26:07Z amirouche: merge = if you register both read and write, you can not tell which one it wakes up for. 2021-03-24T16:26:12Z amirouche: I find this very strange. 2021-03-24T16:27:16Z LeoNerd: Uhm isn't that what the .events field is for? 2021-03-24T16:28:17Z LeoNerd: At least, in the Perl binding for it, we look in the .events field to see what things have happened, and tell that to the callback function 2021-03-24T16:28:18Z LeoNerd: https://metacpan.org/source/LEONT/Linux-Epoll-0.018/lib%2FLinux%2FEpoll.xs#L348 2021-03-24T16:28:55Z LeoNerd: It's a bitmask of possible event flags. Analogous to the `revents` field of the poll() structure 2021-03-24T16:38:32Z amirouche: indeed, that is what is written in the man page as: "while the events member will contain the returned event bit field." 2021-03-24T16:38:42Z amirouche: https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/manpages-dev/epoll_wait.2.en.html 2021-03-24T16:38:54Z amirouche: someone is wrong on stackoverflow. 2021-03-24T16:39:57Z amirouche: ty Leo :) 2021-03-24T16:41:28Z LeoNerd: *gasp* Someone, on the internet, being wrong?! 2021-03-24T16:45:33Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-24T16:46:45Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:47:07Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T16:47:37Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-24T16:53:04Z mario-goulart quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-24T17:02:32Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T17:02:50Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-24T17:02:51Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T17:03:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-24T17:05:14Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-24T17:06:02Z jcowan: In R7 it's okay to have an identifier begin with a numeric character, as long as it doesn't begin with a number. Thus ".foo" is an identifier, but "3foo" isn't because "3" is a prefix of it. 2021-03-24T17:06:50Z jcowan: This makes the syntactic rules more complex, but it's convenient. 2021-03-24T17:08:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-03-24T17:08:51Z jcowan: My asshole-RMS story: RMS invited a friend of mine (an old gf in fact) to go with him to some sort of event. He went off somewhere and left her stranded without transportation. 2021-03-24T17:09:23Z jcowan: She also mentioned his bad breath, which is at least suggestive. 2021-03-24T17:13:05Z iv4nshm4k0v: jcowan: I don't suppose anyone on this channel ever meet me in person. Given that none around knows if I'm the same, better, or worse, how does it happen that you still find it acceptable to interact with me? 2021-03-24T17:13:59Z iv4nshm4k0v: ("You" as in "y'all".) 2021-03-24T17:16:14Z jcowan: Well, speaking for myself I assume that people are respect-worthy until they are proved otherwise. RMS has, as far as I am concerned, proved otherwise. 2021-03-24T17:17:34Z iv4nshm4k0v: jcowan: Do you find his work respect-worthy? 2021-03-24T17:17:57Z jcowan: Much of it, yes. 2021-03-24T17:20:04Z Zipheir: Years ago I studied the GNU diff implementation, which I believe is mostly RMS's work. It was very clear and tasteful C. 2021-03-24T17:21:48Z mdhughes: Turns out your coding ability doesn't make you a good person. 2021-03-24T17:21:53Z iv4nshm4k0v: jcowan: If you define leadership in a field of study in some other way than as having respect to one's work, I'm actually curious as to how. 2021-03-24T17:22:52Z jcowan: I don't consider what RMS does (or has done) a "field of study". 2021-03-24T17:23:23Z iv4nshm4k0v: jcowan: Elaborate? 2021-03-24T17:24:30Z jcowan: Physics is a field of study. THe FSF (or Apple Computers) isn't. Steve Jobs was the leader of Apple, but from all I hear he was a contemptible human being. 2021-03-24T17:25:14Z mdhughes: Steve wasn't a bad person, just very focused on his work at work, his family at home. 2021-03-24T17:25:43Z iv4nshm4k0v: jcowan: Software development, software freedom, free software, and GNU seem like valid fields, do they not? 2021-03-24T17:25:44Z mdhughes: But he started out as an absolutely awful CEO, that's why he got fired the first time, ran away to make NeXT, learned to be a good CEO. 2021-03-24T17:26:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-24T17:26:28Z mdhughes: Turns out some people actually grow as people. Stallman's been loathed by everyone who knew him personally since SAIL. 2021-03-24T17:27:10Z mdhughes: Being *good at coding* doesn't make you *good at management*. It doesn't make you a good person. 2021-03-24T17:27:15Z jcowan: He treated people like assholes by all reports. I never worked at Apple, so I don't know personally. In any case a "good CEO" is one who makes money for the company and doesn't disgrace it, which has nothing to do with being a morally worthy person. 2021-03-24T17:27:22Z jcowan: s/assholes/an asshole 2021-03-24T17:27:38Z iv4nshm4k0v: mdhughes: Apparently FSF board of directors have learned to tolerate him. 2021-03-24T17:27:43Z mdhughes: I know a lot of people who knew Steve personally, he treated people very well when then did their jobs correctly. 2021-03-24T17:28:38Z mdhughes: He was just completely insufferable if you were incompetent. And that's at work, making the best products in the world isn't easy. At home he was very different. 2021-03-24T17:29:42Z mdhughes: The Walter Isaacson book on Steve has a lot of problems, it's technically nonsense in a few places. But it's an OK view into his character, and what it takes to do that job. 2021-03-24T17:30:10Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T17:30:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T17:31:38Z mdhughes: And there's https://www.folklore.org which is early Apple, when he was learning. 2021-03-24T17:33:00Z Zipheir: I think a lot of programming communities have allowed a lot of aggressive behavior, especially from "higher-ups" and semi-celebrities (Linus and Theo come to mind). I think the tide is turning on that culture. 2021-03-24T17:35:45Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: And I'm concerned that said tide may throw the baby with the bathwater. One thing to understand is that being a good and comfortable-to-be-around person doesn't automatically make you a good programmer. 2021-03-24T17:36:08Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-24T17:37:41Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-24T17:40:19Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2021-03-24T17:41:14Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: No, certainly not. But it's not a binary choice, "interacts well with people XOR programs well". 2021-03-24T17:43:32Z Zipheir: And flaming/bullying/worse things aren't the privilege of good programmers. 2021-03-24T17:43:32Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: Sure. Any specific person you have in mind who's both good /and/ whose contributions to GNU rival that of RMS? 2021-03-24T17:43:44Z iv4nshm4k0v: (In the specific case of rms-open-letter, I'm also concerned that neither of the parties involved seem to understand the nature of mental conditions, but that's a secondary concern.) 2021-03-24T17:44:05Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T17:44:08Z wasamasa: amirouche: I can already imagine how you prevent a project from being used against your will :D 2021-03-24T17:44:18Z wasamasa: amirouche: by releasing it in a broken/unusable state :P 2021-03-24T17:44:32Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-24T17:44:39Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: I don't know enough about the GNU community these days to have an opinion. 2021-03-24T17:44:45Z mdhughes: https://fsfe.org/news/2021/news-20210324-01.html 2021-03-24T17:45:11Z Zipheir: (On a suitable grand Pooh Bah person. Better yet, get rid of the grand Pooh Bah position.) 2021-03-24T17:45:57Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: Several years ago I was accused of harassment by a fellow contributor. Several weeks ago, he's said that if need be, he'll readily apologize for his accusations back in the day. So? (If you care to read Russian, I can provide the links.) 2021-03-24T17:46:51Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: Well, I'm glad to hear that you've apparently resolved that problem. 2021-03-24T17:47:58Z Zipheir: I'm certainly not arguing for damnatio memoriae or public floggings. 2021-03-24T17:49:10Z Zipheir: mdhughes: And suddenly he's back again. 2021-03-24T17:50:58Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: I can't say the problem was resolved, or at least satisfactory resolved: he ended up leaving the project. I'm glad that he ackowledged his mistake (I have acknowledged at least some of mine already back then), but my point is that conflicts /do/ happen, and someone who leaves the project because of someone else is not necessarily /right./ 2021-03-24T17:53:19Z Zipheir: I don't think it's helpful to talk about who's "right" or "wrong" in these situations. 2021-03-24T17:53:26Z Zipheir: But, anyway. 2021-03-24T17:55:17Z CyDefect quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2021-03-24T17:55:40Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-24T17:55:44Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: Regardless of the choice of words, it's very easy to blame someone who's not yourself. Over some perceived slight, for example. 2021-03-24T17:57:25Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-24T17:59:42Z iv4nshm4k0v: Given that volunteer-driven free software projects make it very easy to avoid interacting with someone you don't like, the idea that only "likable" persons should be allowed to contribute doesn't seem reasonable. 2021-03-24T18:00:22Z emacsomancer quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-24T18:01:26Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2021-03-24T18:05:42Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: I don't see anyone suggesting that. 2021-03-24T18:06:18Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-03-24T18:12:24Z iv4nshm4k0v: Zipheir: "We are also calling for Richard M. Stallman to be removed from all leadership positions, including the GNU Project." If you allow RMS to contribute to GNU, how do you ensure that other GNU developers would refrain from heeding his advice? (And if you don't, how is that not "leadership"?) 2021-03-24T18:12:29Z iv4nshm4k0v: Moreover, if there's a large group of people who believe RMS leadership to be detrimental to GNU development, why can't they fork it and show how to do it better? 2021-03-24T18:15:08Z civodul: iv4nshm4k0v: a number of GNU maintainers and developers do not recognize rms as the head of GNU; see https://gnu.tools/ 2021-03-24T18:15:38Z civodul: it's not a fork because we consider this project "ours", collectively, and not "his" 2021-03-24T18:17:07Z iv4nshm4k0v: civodul: That kind of makes my point stronger, no? If he's not in the leadership position in the first place, how can he be removed from it? 2021-03-24T18:17:35Z civodul: oh right 2021-03-24T18:17:59Z civodul: plus, GNU is an informal group; it's not a 501(c) non-profit or anything like that 2021-03-24T18:18:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-24T18:18:09Z civodul: its structure is informal 2021-03-24T18:18:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T18:19:20Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-24T18:21:55Z Zipheir: I'd like to bring the topic back to Scheme, now. 2021-03-24T18:22:27Z ChoHag: Well in that case, I just got my implementation's core working and tested. 2021-03-24T18:23:30Z ChoHag: Not much more than lambda, but the first-class operatives which are its point work also. 2021-03-24T18:23:46Z ChoHag: I should probably engit it. 2021-03-24T18:24:47Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T18:32:18Z ChoHag: Zipheir: Apparently not. 2021-03-24T18:39:32Z jcowan: Well, I am an instrumental moralist, so I *do* talk about who is right and who is wrong. 2021-03-24T18:39:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-24T18:40:01Z ChoHag: I have trouble defining the concepts. 2021-03-24T18:40:20Z ChoHag: 'moral', 'right', 'wrong', 'who'. I know what an instrument is. 2021-03-24T18:43:41Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-24T18:44:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T18:46:36Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-24T18:47:19Z Zipheir: ChoHag: Do you use continuations? 2021-03-24T18:48:59Z ChoHag: Not yet. 2021-03-24T18:49:16Z ChoHag: I've planned around including them from the beginning though. 2021-03-24T18:49:56Z ChoHag: They will be delimited though, not call/cc. 2021-03-24T18:50:29Z ChoHag: (Although the first frame will have a continuation delimiter, which call/cc can be implemented with) 2021-03-24T18:53:13Z ChoHag: There are still bugs to massage out first, like this stack overflow. 2021-03-24T18:53:13Z Zipheir: Good idea. 2021-03-24T19:02:35Z xelxebar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T19:03:01Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-03-24T19:06:53Z mdhughes quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-24T19:08:27Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T19:08:47Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-03-24T19:09:58Z ChoHag: Woo! (let) works! 2021-03-24T19:10:10Z ChoHag: Turns out when you pop something off the stack you never put there, it later overflows. 2021-03-24T19:10:36Z ChoHag: Or underflows. 2021-03-24T19:10:47Z ChoHag: It flows. There's lava in the living room is the point. 2021-03-24T19:15:21Z mdhughes joined #scheme 2021-03-24T19:23:25Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-03-24T19:24:25Z gagbo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-24T19:27:41Z midre joined #scheme 2021-03-24T19:34:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-24T19:44:00Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-24T19:51:53Z ChoHag: If anyone wants to poke around with my alpha scheme interpreter with barely any implementation but first-class operatives, it's at http://81.187.183.71/lossless/ 2021-03-24T19:52:12Z ChoHag: I'll engit it eventually but I wanted to dump it somewhere so I'm not just occasionally spouting off about it. 2021-03-24T19:54:21Z gagbo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-24T19:56:21Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T19:57:35Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-24T20:09:38Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T20:17:32Z dpk: ChoHag: looks interesting! by operatives you mean something like in the Kernel/fexpr sense? 2021-03-24T20:17:42Z ChoHag: Exactly that. 2021-03-24T20:18:46Z dpk: there also can't be many Lisps written in Perl 5. there may, in fact, be more Lisps written in The Language Formerly Known as Perl 6 2021-03-24T20:19:02Z dpk: given it has real parsing and real typing 2021-03-24T20:19:09Z ChoHag: I want scheme, vau and delimited continuations at a minimum. 2021-03-24T20:20:11Z ChoHag: I think I have the first two. 2021-03-24T20:20:18Z ChoHag: And the framework for the third. 2021-03-24T20:20:38Z ChoHag: Perl 5 is already lisp. 2021-03-24T20:24:42Z ChoHag: Criticism welcome and desired, btw, on everything. 2021-03-24T20:25:20Z LeoNerd: I wrote one too 2021-03-24T20:25:31Z LeoNerd: It's -almost- all of r5rs, just minus call/cc because.. eugh :/ 2021-03-24T20:26:00Z ChoHag: I'm hoping that adding continuations will be easy. 2021-03-24T20:26:56Z ChoHag: In fact this implementation partly ended up existing because my attempts to expand the stack frame header in the original s9fes I was munging wasn't working and I wanted a test suite. 2021-03-24T20:27:18Z ChoHag: Said expansion being required solely to support continuations. 2021-03-24T20:29:47Z Wezl: ChoHag: I enjoy reading it, and learning more about perl 2021-03-24T20:31:21Z srandon111 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-24T20:31:28Z Wezl: ofc the cdadaaddadadddr part is ugly but that's not your fault :) 2021-03-24T20:31:37Z ChoHag: Thanks! I especially want the documentation to be rock-solid. 2021-03-24T20:31:57Z Wezl: it is 2021-03-24T20:32:18Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-03-24T20:32:22Z ChoHag: I'm trying to follow Knuth's example but perl doesn't have WEB and I didn't want to introduce dependencies. 2021-03-24T20:35:27Z ChoHag: LeoNerd: The trade-off for avoiding eugh is that this thing, even when I get it back to C, and efficiency ... don't mix. 2021-03-24T20:36:13Z ChoHag: It creates a whole stack frame just to look up the value of a symbol, which it does for every single application. 2021-03-24T20:36:55Z edgar-rft: if you want to stay independent it's best to ignore the web :-) 2021-03-24T20:38:15Z ChoHag: At the moment I'm militantly not-optimising anything, and I can see a whole load of obvious efficiency gains pending, but even with them the model is inherently hostile to compiler optimisation. 2021-03-24T20:38:28Z ChoHag: edgar-rft: Yeah I do. 2021-03-24T20:38:46Z DHARMAKAYA joined #scheme 2021-03-24T20:40:07Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T20:42:19Z edgar-rft: it strictly follows the philosophy of unoptimized computing 2021-03-24T20:43:37Z ChoHag: I call it Engineering. 2021-03-24T20:43:57Z ChoHag: First you make something that works. Then you make something that demonstrates that it works. Than you do whatever the hell you want with it. 2021-03-24T20:44:18Z ChoHag: As long as the second thing never stops working, you're good. 2021-03-24T20:44:43Z ChoHag: (I'm not an official engineer) 2021-03-24T20:45:09Z DHARMAKAYA quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-24T20:47:30Z Zipheir: Calculating implementations from a formal semantics can help. 2021-03-24T20:47:55Z ChoHag: That's kind of the plan. 2021-03-24T20:48:03Z Zipheir: s/from a/with the guidance of/, more like. There's a bit of a seam there. 2021-03-24T20:48:38Z ChoHag: I want as little core as possible and everything else basically a mapping of the relevant rXrs section to code. 2021-03-24T20:50:46Z ChoHag: That's 2200 lines of perl without documentation. Easily ~10k in C. That's already too much. 2021-03-24T20:56:21Z dpk: WEB stands for Wödel, Escher, Bach 2021-03-24T20:56:46Z fnstudio: lol 2021-03-24T21:01:08Z tryte_ quit (Quit: _) 2021-03-24T21:01:25Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-03-24T21:19:53Z edgar-rft: WEB is Where Everybody Burps 2021-03-24T21:22:54Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-24T21:25:50Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-24T21:32:00Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-24T21:42:54Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-03-24T21:42:54Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T21:42:54Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-03-24T21:45:40Z amirouche: wasamasa: I bet I can find a Scheme project that is useable 2021-03-24T21:46:59Z ChoHag: Don't be silly. 2021-03-24T21:47:37Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-24T21:48:36Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-03-24T21:48:36Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-03-24T21:48:36Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-03-24T22:01:48Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-24T22:02:28Z hyiltiz 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Most implementations I found were r5 and some were reaching for r7. 2021-03-25T06:39:18Z ChoHag: Only one I think took r6 seriously. 2021-03-25T06:39:28Z Zipheir: Although some of the negative characterizations of R6 are amusing; I recall someone comparing it to the Matrix sequels. :) 2021-03-25T06:39:47Z ChoHag: Could have been worse. 2021-03-25T06:39:52Z ChoHag: Could have been Star Wars. 2021-03-25T06:39:54Z Zipheir: Guile, Chez, Racket are the big ones. 2021-03-25T06:41:37Z Zipheir: If it were Star Wars, it would now be hyper-commercialized and we'd all be buying Dybvig plushies. 2021-03-25T07:13:03Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2021-03-25T07:20:55Z siraben: ChoHag: oh that's great! 2021-03-25T07:21:11Z siraben: just wasn't sure, people tend to gloss over the formal stuff and dismiss it 2021-03-25T07:21:49Z ChoHag: Oh no. I read RFCs sometimes just because I'm bored. 2021-03-25T07:22:33Z ChoHag: You start with the formal stuff (well you start with skimming some introduction but then) to understand a thing, then you look for all the fluff on the web to see how it's used in the world. 2021-03-25T07:22:45Z ChoHag: Misused, usually. 2021-03-25T07:27:30Z siraben: But interesting that you would use Perl as an implementation language which I'd imagine obscures the semantics more than say ML or Haskell. 2021-03-25T07:28:01Z ChoHag: It's a port from C so that I have an easier language to work out ideas in than C. 2021-03-25T07:28:19Z ChoHag: It's going back once it's stable. I know perl better than any other high-level language. 2021-03-25T07:28:43Z ChoHag: Well, maybe I know sh more, but only because there's so much less of it. I don't fancy writing a compiler in sh. 2021-03-25T07:29:12Z ChoHag: It's actually not using any perl idioms. 2021-03-25T07:30:00Z ChoHag: Or those few it does are obvious sugar, like 'op FOO => sub { ... }' which would be 'case OP_FOO: ...; break;' 2021-03-25T07:30:45Z phossil joined #scheme 2021-03-25T07:32:10Z ChoHag: I'm not really sure what to do to it next. I've spent so much time getting to this point I can't remember what the previous yak was. 2021-03-25T07:32:19Z rj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T07:32:21Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-25T07:33:00Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-25T07:33:14Z ChoHag: Obviously at some point I'll have to build the rest of the language, you can't do much with just lambda and cons (and friends), but with those that becomes an implementation detail already covered in numerous maths-notation-heavy papers. 2021-03-25T07:33:45Z ChoHag: And there's probably a .scm file floating around somewhere that's 95% of what I need to flesh that out. 2021-03-25T07:36:52Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-25T07:50:01Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T07:51:08Z midre joined #scheme 2021-03-25T07:53:12Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-25T08:02:16Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T08:08:09Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-25T08:11:39Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:12:27Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-25T08:15:47Z CyDefect quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T08:18:29Z frost-lab31 joined #scheme 2021-03-25T08:21:43Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:28:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-25T08:33:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:35:44Z webshinra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-25T08:37:15Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-03-25T08:51:35Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T08:56:34Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T08:56:57Z zooey joined #scheme 2021-03-25T09:02:47Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-03-25T09:18:08Z mdhughes: I would happily buy a Kent Dybvig action figure. Chez Scheme café playset. 2021-03-25T09:19:51Z mdhughes: https://www.scheme.com/csug8/system.html#./system:s106 2021-03-25T09:22:33Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T09:25:28Z zooey joined #scheme 2021-03-25T09:59:12Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T10:01:31Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T10:03:46Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-03-25T10:04:25Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-25T10:12:01Z phossil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T10:29:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-25T10:34:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T10:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T10:58:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-25T11:10:07Z pankajsg quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-25T11:11:10Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-03-25T11:13:40Z Noisytoot quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-25T11:20:04Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T11:20:43Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-25T11:33:02Z pankajsg quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-25T11:43:04Z wasamasa: amirouche: I see, it contains nstore 2021-03-25T11:43:14Z wasamasa: amirouche: so there was actually a working implementation of it around 2021-03-25T11:49:04Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-25T11:52:37Z siraben: ChoHag: yeah, I implemented my interpreter first then optimized later, which in my case was changing the store from an alist (shocking!) to an IntMap 2021-03-25T11:53:43Z siraben: I still have yet to add IO stuff, but the semantics accommodates it well since the answer type A isn't given, so it might as well be IO SchemeVal or something 2021-03-25T11:55:01Z siraben: I'm still migrating the denotational semantics to one that uses monad transformers 2021-03-25T11:55:10Z siraben: I've been putting off syntax-rules too long... 2021-03-25T11:57:49Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-25T12:03:57Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-25T12:05:57Z frost-lab31 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-03-25T12:12:04Z turtleman joined #scheme 2021-03-25T12:21:55Z jcowan: ChoHag: That is because you failed to sing "Ding, dong, the yak is shaved, the hairy yak, the yak is shaved. Ding, dong, the yak is shaved today!" with the proper enthusiasm. 2021-03-25T12:23:19Z siraben: more in R6RS-is-cursed-why-did-we-do-this news, they opted for an operational semantics because they didn't like how evaluation order was undefined in R5RS 2021-03-25T12:27:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-25T12:30:11Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-25T12:34:12Z polezaivsani quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T12:37:02Z wklew: i wish delimited continuations were standard rather than call/cc 2021-03-25T12:38:48Z jcowan: Part of the problem is that they were developed in a fractionated way, and no one agrees on what the basic operations should do. Racket supports them all, each with its own non-systematic name, perhaps in the hope that everyone's code will work. 2021-03-25T12:39:45Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-25T12:40:58Z ChoHag: It doesn't help that the descriptions and explanations of it are ... not very good. 2021-03-25T12:41:42Z tryte_ joined #scheme 2021-03-25T12:42:59Z tryte quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T12:44:33Z siraben: see also okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html 2021-03-25T12:44:47Z siraben: wklew: delimited continuations being shift/reset? 2021-03-25T12:45:20Z siraben: i'd be really curious about situations where you really need continuations, either delimited or undelimited, because it seems to me that many Scheme programmers just manually CPS their code to make it readable 2021-03-25T12:45:35Z wklew: siraben: they could be any, as oleg says they are all expressible in terms of each other 2021-03-25T12:45:59Z wklew: ChoHag: that's true, hard to pick which to make standard 2021-03-25T12:46:16Z wklew: sorry that was meant to be directed at jcowan 2021-03-25T12:46:40Z siraben: "Undelimited and delimited continuations also differ in expressiveness, and this difference has been proven. First-class delimited continuations can express any expressible computational effect, including exceptions and mutable state." lol 2021-03-25T12:47:22Z ChoHag: The examples are also all terrible. 2021-03-25T12:47:33Z ChoHag: They make fibonacci look like a reasonable way to describe recursion. 2021-03-25T12:47:46Z wklew: and call/cc is better? 2021-03-25T12:47:57Z jcowan: Coroutines are the obvious example: another is Prolog-style backtracking. 2021-03-25T12:48:05Z siraben: I guess you can implement McCarthy's amb with call/cc, that's the only neat thing I've seen 2021-03-25T12:48:12Z ChoHag: call/cc is basically the same, just not delimited. 2021-03-25T12:48:23Z jcowan: amb is precisely backtracking 2021-03-25T12:48:23Z siraben: it's basically GOTO reloaded 2021-03-25T12:48:38Z siraben: call/cc* 2021-03-25T12:48:39Z jcowan: In Scheme, LAMBDA is GOTO 2021-03-25T12:48:59Z siraben: I think the CHICKEN wiki even tries to explain call/cc with setjmp/longjmp 2021-03-25T12:49:14Z ChoHag: I tried using the example of a guessing game to describe them. 2021-03-25T12:49:21Z wklew: delimcc is like with-exception-handler and raise-exception, call/cc is like turn your whole program inside out 2021-03-25T12:49:44Z wklew: easier to explain imo 2021-03-25T12:49:54Z jcowan: Orthogonal to un/delimited continuations are multishot/one-shot ones. That's for efficiency. 2021-03-25T12:50:34Z wklew: i guess i would like prompt/abort for that reason 2021-03-25T12:50:52Z wklew: it has exception-like semantics 2021-03-25T12:52:26Z jcowan: I vaguely remember a paper that classifies all the delimited-continuation mechanisms using a feature analysis (+ for this, - for that) but I don't know how to find it again. 2021-03-25T12:53:00Z jcowan: I think it had to do with whether the ends of the delimited continuation are inside or outside it. 2021-03-25T12:53:07Z jcowan: Does that ring any bells for anyone? 2021-03-25T12:58:03Z siraben: jcowan: any hints on time period/authors? 2021-03-25T12:58:11Z siraben: maybe even what programming language they used? 2021-03-25T12:58:49Z ChoHag: Not it, but there's this: http://homes.sice.indiana.edu/ccshan/recur/recur.pdf comparing two sets. 2021-03-25T12:59:05Z ChoHag: But yes I vaguely remember reading that. 2021-03-25T13:01:03Z jcowan: Apparently it's Felleisen's F, but I haven't pinned down the relevant paper. 2021-03-25T13:22:42Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-25T13:23:08Z cmatei joined #scheme 2021-03-25T13:24:36Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T13:24:51Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-03-25T13:26:22Z jcowan: (I resorted to an incredibly dumb Google search: ["continuation" "shift" "reset" "prompt" "abort"] 2021-03-25T13:26:26Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T13:27:21Z wklew: yeah definitely chung-chieh shan comes to mind 2021-03-25T13:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T13:28:15Z wklew: i know they've been classified as either dynamic or static 2021-03-25T13:28:17Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-25T13:28:28Z wasamasa: what's up with (chibi optional) using ((tmp . d) ... . rest) in syntax-rules 2021-03-25T13:28:35Z wklew: i think felleisen's F is what guile calls abort/prompt 2021-03-25T13:28:42Z wasamasa: CHICKEN considers that syntax an error 2021-03-25T13:29:39Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T13:30:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-25T13:39:37Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T13:39:51Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-25T13:41:01Z cmatei quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-25T13:44:15Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-03-25T13:59:02Z jcowan: That's a bug in many syntax expanders. It can be worked around with ((tmp head . tail) ...) 2021-03-25T13:59:34Z wasamasa: and I thought alexpander is perfect and all 2021-03-25T14:00:48Z wasamasa: so what exactly is this supposed to match, a list of the ((foo . 1) (bar . 2) baz qux quux) kind? 2021-03-25T14:02:14Z jcowan: I think so 2021-03-25T14:08:36Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T14:18:57Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-03-25T14:25:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-03-25T14:32:42Z indathrone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-25T14:45:45Z wasamasa: to answer my earlier question: http://ix.io/2U3n 2021-03-25T14:46:10Z wasamasa: it only matches a dotted list item for some reason 2021-03-25T14:46:29Z wasamasa: honestly, I think conses were a mistake 2021-03-25T14:47:07Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-03-25T14:48:47Z ManDay quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-25T14:49:08Z Zipheir: wasamasa: What about ((name . value) (n1 . v1) ... . rest)) ? 2021-03-25T14:49:54Z Zipheir: The standard doesn't seem to specify the ( ... . ) form. 2021-03-25T14:50:12Z wasamasa: some scheme implementations support it apparently 2021-03-25T14:50:19Z wasamasa: chibi, gauche and who knows what else 2021-03-25T14:50:38Z wasamasa: your suggestion gives me "ERROR on line 5 of file tmp/test.scm: too many ...'s" 2021-03-25T14:50:43Z Zipheir: Yeah, I've definitely seen it. I'm just wondering if it's related to the bug. 2021-03-25T14:50:52Z Zipheir: Weird. 2021-03-25T14:51:15Z wasamasa: CHICKEN supports let-optionals, but not with that trailing dotted item 2021-03-25T14:54:46Z Zipheir: CHICKEN's syntax-rules rejects the ( ... . ) form outright: "Cannot combine dotted tail and ellipsis". 2021-03-25T14:56:08Z Zipheir: ... which makes sense, since I'd confused "..." and ⟨ellipsis⟩ when reading the standard. (Oops.) 2021-03-25T14:58:35Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T14:58:36Z wasamasa: kawa doesn't support it either 2021-03-25T14:58:56Z wasamasa: or no, it does 2021-03-25T14:58:57Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-03-25T14:59:01Z wasamasa: it doesn't like your variant 2021-03-25T14:59:30Z wasamasa: sagittarius also supports it 2021-03-25T14:59:58Z wasamasa: cyclone doesn't 2021-03-25T15:00:43Z wasamasa: foment does 2021-03-25T15:01:59Z Zipheir: OK, ((name . value) ... (nlast . vlast) . rest) seems to be the closest form the standard describes. 2021-03-25T15:02:47Z wasamasa: going over the r7rs-small pdf it should be supported 2021-03-25T15:03:31Z wasamasa: (* * . ) 2021-03-25T15:03:32Z Zipheir: No, wait, ((n0 . v0) (n1 . v1) ... (nn . vn) . rest) 2021-03-25T15:03:36Z Zipheir: Right. 2021-03-25T15:04:17Z Zipheir: CHICKEN still doesn't like that. 2021-03-25T15:05:04Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-25T15:06:34Z wasamasa: I don't see how ((n0 . v0) (n1 . v1) ... (nn . vn)) would match a list of one or more binding pairs 2021-03-25T15:07:46Z Zipheir: It wouldn't. I was just trying to find something close to what you wrote and got a little side-tracked. 2021-03-25T15:08:09Z wasamasa: I guess no snow for CHICKEN because of that R7RS incompatibility 2021-03-25T15:08:43Z Zipheir: Oh, yeah. 2021-03-25T15:09:00Z wasamasa: a surprising amount of things depend on that let-optionals* implementation 2021-03-25T15:09:05Z ChoHag: wasamasa: '(': list of, '(n0 . v0)': a pair; '(n1 . v1) ...': 0 or more pairs; '(nn . vn)': another pair; ')'. 2021-03-25T15:09:45Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-25T15:10:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-25T15:10:22Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-25T15:15:10Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-25T15:27:38Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-03-25T15:30:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-25T15:30:57Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-03-25T15:54:46Z jcowan: Surely it can be rejiggered. 2021-03-25T15:54:50Z jcowan: (in snow) 2021-03-25T16:01:59Z phillbush quit (Remote 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Anywhere.) 2021-03-25T23:57:00Z phossil quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-03-25T23:59:18Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:01:29Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:04:07Z `micro_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-26T00:04:20Z `micro joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:04:50Z jao quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:09:14Z deuill joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:12:17Z dTal_ is now known as dTal 2021-03-26T00:12:19Z notzmv- joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:12:47Z notzmv- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T00:13:40Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:14:21Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:15:19Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T00:15:53Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:16:18Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T00:17:04Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:19:03Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T00:19:26Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:21:14Z mdhughes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T00:21:42Z mdhughes joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:22:06Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:25:46Z Noisytoot quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:27:01Z Noisytoot joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:28:45Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T00:33:08Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:42:46Z phossil joined #scheme 2021-03-26T00:44:22Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-26T00:48:44Z foof``: wasamasa: I think that's a SRFI 46 extension. I should rewrite it not to use that. 2021-03-26T01:05:36Z choas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:05:54Z choas joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:13:00Z webshinra_ joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:13:57Z rj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:14:39Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:16:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:17:01Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:17:06Z phossil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:17:25Z phossil joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:20:51Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:21:04Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:25:13Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:25:36Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:29:15Z s-video joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:34:50Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T01:37:15Z oxum_ joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:37:49Z Tempest3 joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:38:08Z rmrfchik joined #scheme 2021-03-26T01:38:38Z oxum quit (Ping 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:) 2021-03-26T07:35:54Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-26T07:49:10Z ChoHag: I have a bug. 2021-03-26T07:49:39Z ChoHag: It's in the gc I've constantly tried to ignore. 2021-03-26T07:49:55Z ChoHag: Every time I try to dig it out, it retreats deeper in. 2021-03-26T07:54:35Z wasamasa: foof``: thanks, this points out that alexpander supports it and it's a matter of not rejecting its output 2021-03-26T08:07:08Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-26T08:08:38Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-26T08:09:57Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T08:31:18Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-26T08:44:16Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-26T08:44:45Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T08:49:34Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-26T08:56:20Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T08:56:57Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-03-26T09:07:38Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-26T09:21:10Z alelos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T09:24:22Z alelos joined #scheme 2021-03-26T09:25:31Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-26T09:28:13Z amirouche: I started the day with some yak shaving. I want to implement the non-colored async library I call untangle, I created the initial documentation, then... started reworking the socket bindings. 2021-03-26T09:28:40Z amirouche: soon enough I will want to get rid of getaddrinfo.. 2021-03-26T09:29:23Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T09:29:55Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-26T09:49:46Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-26T09:50:05Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T09:51:01Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-03-26T09:51:01Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2021-03-26T09:51:01Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-03-26T10:02:04Z terrorjack joined #scheme 2021-03-26T10:06:33Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-03-26T10:14:09Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2021-03-26T10:31:56Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-26T10:45:52Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T10:47:44Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-26T11:31:57Z lucas_ joined #scheme 2021-03-26T11:32:00Z lucas_ quit (Remote host 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2021-03-26T13:28:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T13:28:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-26T13:28:45Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-26T13:31:55Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T13:32:34Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-26T13:32:38Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T13:51:33Z pinoaffe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T13:51:39Z amirouche: say no to yak shaving, say yes to "patch welcome" 2021-03-26T13:53:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-26T14:04:11Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T14:07:12Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-26T14:11:57Z klovett_ is now known as klovett 2021-03-26T14:33:18Z amirouche: do you agree that the following phrase is ambigious: " 2021-03-26T14:33:22Z amirouche: > by definition, an RDF-star triple [...] cannot be nested infinitely. 2021-03-26T14:34:02Z amirouche: where RDF-star is a new w3c specification aiming to reify triple to describe fact about existing triples. 2021-03-26T14:34:08Z amirouche: the full sentence is: 2021-03-26T14:34:23Z amirouche: > Note also that, by definition, an RDF-star triple cannot contain 2021-03-26T14:34:25Z amirouche: > itself and _cannot be nested infinitely_. 2021-03-26T14:34:27Z amirouche: > 2021-03-26T14:34:29Z amirouche: > https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/cg-spec/2021-02-18.html#concepts 2021-03-26T14:34:41Z amirouche: I think they mean, a rdf-star triple can not reference itself. 2021-03-26T14:42:44Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-26T14:59:07Z midow quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-26T15:03:14Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-26T15:27:57Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T15:31:04Z astronavt quit (Quit: ...) 2021-03-26T15:31:20Z Yardanico quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T15:31:27Z astronavt joined #scheme 2021-03-26T15:33:00Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-26T15:33:26Z Yardanico joined #scheme 2021-03-26T15:35:04Z 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wasamasa: I just realized snow-fort doesn't use https 2021-03-26T17:07:50Z wasamasa: that explains why the signatures 2021-03-26T17:08:13Z wasamasa: but what if someone MITM'd the repo file and used their own signatures :P 2021-03-26T17:12:44Z Zipheir: Sounds like a good use for signify(1) https://man.openbsd.org/signify.1 2021-03-26T17:15:17Z wasamasa: I guess that's why the emacs people considered signing the repo list 2021-03-26T17:15:42Z wasamasa: but they failed delivering their up-to-date keys for verification to all the emacs versions in use supporting verification 2021-03-26T17:15:53Z Zipheir: Oops. 2021-03-26T17:16:07Z wasamasa: so far I've only seen linux distros handling that correctly 2021-03-26T17:16:55Z Zipheir: I like that each OpenBSD release includes the keys for the next release. 2021-03-26T17:17:27Z wasamasa: yeah, that's how they do it 2021-03-26T17:17:43Z wasamasa: give you something to bootstrap off and regular updates until the next release you switch to 2021-03-26T17:21:25Z wasamasa: so regarding the doclink issue, it seems this is snow-fort assuming that when no documentation has been specified, there surely will be an index.html 2021-03-26T17:23:10Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T17:24:19Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-26T17:25:24Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-03-26T17:25:51Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-26T17:28:27Z wasamasa: let me check how many actually fulfill that assumption 2021-03-26T17:28:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T17:32:21Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-26T17:36:39Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-26T17:38:31Z amirouche: possibly the most beautiful line of scheme code poetry: (entangle-continue (untangle-entangle untangle)) 2021-03-26T17:38:38Z amirouche: that I made. 2021-03-26T17:46:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-26T17:47:53Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-03-26T17:48:08Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-03-26T17:48:53Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-26T17:48:58Z amirouche: possibly also working code poery. I wrote 618 lines with zero test, not even REPL test. 2021-03-26T17:51:56Z nilgeisw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T17:56:21Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:01:38Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-26T18:04:45Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T18:04:57Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-03-26T18:05:39Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-03-26T18:10:53Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:11:32Z wasamasa: hm, I just realized the code almost always assumes the manual lives in an index.html, sigh 2021-03-26T18:11:41Z wasamasa: unless you specify an absolute URL 2021-03-26T18:12:04Z wasamasa: a relative URL is probably just picked up at package build time 2021-03-26T18:18:05Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-26T18:19:49Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-26T18:22:17Z wasamasa: yup, that seems to be the case indeed 2021-03-26T18:23:51Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:24:09Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-26T18:26:58Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:47:46Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:48:01Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-26T18:48:47Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-26T18:51:11Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T18:55:07Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T18:55:27Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-03-26T19:02:55Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-26T19:12:46Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T19:13:04Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T19:17:47Z wasamasa: so, I've mirrored the entire site 2021-03-26T19:17:54Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-26T19:17:58Z wasamasa: there's 214 gz files and 184 index.html files 2021-03-26T19:18:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-26T19:18:20Z wasamasa: minus the two externally documented files, that makes for 28 definitely undocumented files 2021-03-26T19:18:21Z wasamasa: the horror 2021-03-26T19:18:30Z wasamasa: packages even 2021-03-26T19:26:46Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-26T19:31:46Z wasamasa: comparing the output from the repo list and the mirrored archive, they do match up 2021-03-26T19:32:30Z wasamasa: if someone doesn't set the manual attribute, there will be no documentation, implicit or not 2021-03-26T19:33:07Z wasamasa: so that's cool to know 2021-03-26T19:38:56Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-03-26T19:39:28Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-26T19:44:48Z wasamasa: and there we go: https://github.com/ashinn/snow-fort/pull/5 2021-03-26T19:52:24Z evdubs quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T19:53:47Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-03-26T19:54:57Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-26T20:10:06Z Aquazi quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-26T20:22:41Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T20:32:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:11:09Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-26T21:33:05Z corpix quit (Quit: corpix) 2021-03-26T21:34:08Z polezaivsani quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-26T21:52:38Z johnjay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-03-26T21:53:04Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-03-26T21:58:03Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-26T22:05:51Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:07:27Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-26T22:07:48Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-03-26T22:11:21Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T22:15:21Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:20:06Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-26T22:51:15Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T22:51:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-26T22:56:16Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T22:57:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-26T23:07:01Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T23:07:17Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-03-26T23:10:51Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-26T23:11:04Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-03-26T23:29:16Z sdu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-26T23:30:16Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-26T23:31:01Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-03-26T23:34:01Z foof``: wasamasa: I always use (doc-from-scribble #t) which writes to index.html. 2021-03-26T23:34:06Z foof`` is now known as foof 2021-03-26T23:37:52Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-26T23:41:35Z manicennui left #scheme 2021-03-27T00:05:16Z Zipheir: Is there good Scribble support in any Scheme outside of Racket? 2021-03-27T00:17:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-27T00:18:48Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T00:22:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T00:36:00Z ziron joined #scheme 2021-03-27T00:38:26Z ziron left #scheme 2021-03-27T00:40:46Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T00:44:34Z mdhughes: I'm not aware of *any* other Scribble support. 2021-03-27T00:45:11Z mdhughes: And I wasn't able to figure out, from a short investigation, any way to integrate it into code like docstrings. 2021-03-27T01:04:20Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-03-27T01:05:46Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-27T01:09:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-27T01:13:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T01:18:22Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-27T01:37:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-27T01:44:06Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:07:41Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:19:55Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-27T02:24:10Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:26:04Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T02:43:54Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-27T02:48:44Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T02:57:10Z turtleman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:12:57Z brendyyn joined #scheme 2021-03-27T03:15:12Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:24:19Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-27T03:26:21Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T03:29:08Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:29:17Z aeth quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-03-27T03:29:32Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-27T03:46:37Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-27T03:48:42Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-27T03:53:22Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-27T03:55:35Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-27T03:55:40Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-27T03:56:17Z Zipheir: mdhughes: chibi has a Scribble module, but I have no idea (based on the limited documentation) how to use it for anything beyond parsing. 2021-03-27T03:56:36Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-27T03:56:45Z mdhughes: Maybe someone who wrote Scribble can at some point use it to make some documentation of Scribble. 2021-03-27T04:00:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T04:02:24Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-27T04:04:04Z mzan quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-03-27T04:04:55Z mzan joined #scheme 2021-03-27T04:05:45Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T04:15:45Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-03-27T04:43:52Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-27T04:44:44Z ornxka joined #scheme 2021-03-27T04:44:51Z ornxka: what is the scheme with the best debugger 2021-03-27T04:46:26Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T04:57:11Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-27T05:00:22Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-27T05:23:13Z casaca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-27T05:24:18Z casaca joined #scheme 2021-03-27T05:25:10Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-27T05:29:38Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-27T05:32:14Z jcowan: ornxka: Probably Racket. 2021-03-27T05:41:12Z jjjd joined #scheme 2021-03-27T05:42:24Z daviid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-27T05:43:16Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-03-27T05:45:05Z oxum joined #scheme 2021-03-27T05:45:41Z oxum_ quit (Ping timeout: 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CORPORAL_groovy: is scheme a dead/academic language 2021-03-28T06:49:38Z CORPORAL_groovy: like do people use it in production the way python java c etc are 2021-03-28T06:51:14Z siraben: CORPORAL_groovy: define production 2021-03-28T06:51:24Z siraben: there's web servers, compilers, operating systems, package managers and more written in Scheme 2021-03-28T06:51:43Z CORPORAL_groovy: yeah I mean like commercially or w/e 2021-03-28T06:52:03Z CORPORAL_groovy: like are there people out there doing work in scheme on a large scale 2021-03-28T06:52:09Z CORPORAL_groovy: or is it more a niche thing 2021-03-28T06:53:34Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-28T06:55:10Z siraben: Probably there are people using it commercially, I don't know though. 2021-03-28T06:55:15Z siraben: Does it matter? 2021-03-28T07:07:03Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T07:17:56Z clacke: CORPORAL_groovy: I'd put it this way: It's certainly *capable* of being put in production, but not many companies are doing it. 2021-03-28T07:18:27Z CORPORAL_groovy: siraben: no just curious 2021-03-28T07:18:55Z CORPORAL_groovy: like if I learned scheme and tried to get a job would they be like great now learn python cpp etc or would they be like cool scheme it up dog 2021-03-28T07:19:49Z clacke: The community of the Scheme-like Racket even has a closed mailing list "racket-money" for discussing and sharing experience around working professionally with Racket. I'm there and it's clear that this is still niche. 2021-03-28T07:20:41Z clacke: CORPORAL_groovy: sadly yeah, they'd be like ooh scheme that's cool, we like that, now what languages do you know that we use 2021-03-28T07:21:45Z clacke: My plan to leverage my Scheme knowledge is to learn more Clojure, as I know some companies in my city use it. That's probably as close as I'll get right now. 2021-03-28T07:22:44Z CORPORAL_groovy: what's the big diff between racket and scheme 2021-03-28T07:22:52Z CORPORAL_groovy: or rather the other scheme dialects or w/e 2021-03-28T07:23:07Z clacke: racket is very close to R6RS 2021-03-28T07:23:45Z clacke: first major difference is more immutable data structures, the default cons cell is immutable 2021-03-28T07:24:37Z clacke: and then Racket adds a library that has lots of things, conveniences, not in the standard 2021-03-28T07:25:38Z clacke: that's racket-the-language, but racket-the-environment has support for a great number of languages, including r5rs, r6rs, r7rs 2021-03-28T07:26:14Z siraben: CORPORAL_groovy: unlikely they would ask you to use Scheme in a job, but personally I've gotten away with using Scheme for a work project :P 2021-03-28T07:26:28Z siraben: but certainly the things you can explore and learn with Scheme will make it much easier to pick up other languages 2021-03-28T07:26:53Z clacke: siraben: cool, asked for forgiveness rather than permission? =) 2021-03-28T07:27:03Z Zenton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-28T07:27:08Z siraben: I suppose so, heh 2021-03-28T07:27:21Z siraben: Well, then I had to rewrite it in python before I left for maintability 2021-03-28T07:27:24Z clacke: indeed, learning scheme is good for your programmer brain 2021-03-28T07:27:32Z clacke: aha =) 2021-03-28T07:28:13Z Zenton joined #scheme 2021-03-28T07:31:31Z passchaos joined #scheme 2021-03-28T07:40:28Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T07:41:38Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-28T07:41:51Z xsperry quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T07:53:26Z wasamasa: CORPORAL_groovy: no, knowledge of any kind of lisp only indirectly affects your employability 2021-03-28T07:54:07Z wasamasa: CORPORAL_groovy: like because it made you a better programmer (yay) or someone refusing to use anything else than lisp (good luck getting employed) 2021-03-28T07:54:29Z wasamasa: CORPORAL_groovy: clojure is your best bet if you want to use a language in production 2021-03-28T07:55:12Z wasamasa: CORPORAL_groovy: I did that for a few years and hacked on other lisp projects like three times (twice with CHICKEN, once on an internally used emacs package) 2021-03-28T07:55:13Z CORPORAL_groovy: I was just curious I probably won't ever have a dev job 2021-03-28T07:55:34Z CORPORAL_groovy: but ive been casually taking stabs at sicp for a few months 2021-03-28T07:56:07Z wasamasa: SICP definitely tries to teach you to become a more competent programmer 2021-03-28T07:56:32Z wasamasa: by understanding computation from the ground up and how you'd solve problems from scratch 2021-03-28T07:57:18Z wasamasa: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/software-design-flexibility follows up on that 2021-03-28T08:02:12Z wasamasa: the SICP course has been replaced with a python one, the reasoning being that programming these days is more about plugging existing solutions together 2021-03-28T08:05:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T08:07:11Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-03-28T08:07:45Z jjjd joined #scheme 2021-03-28T08:09:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T08:09:33Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T08:17:37Z siraben: CORPORAL_groovy: the 1986 SICP lectures are good as well 2021-03-28T08:17:51Z siraben: meanwhile, web dev tutorials from 2010 are probably outdated by now 2021-03-28T08:18:10Z siraben: wasamasa: sad times 2021-03-28T08:18:21Z wasamasa: mhh 2021-03-28T08:18:29Z wasamasa: it's weird to look at old web dev stuff 2021-03-28T08:18:39Z wasamasa: so much churn, so little survival 2021-03-28T08:18:50Z siraben: meanwhile I run examples from the Unix Programmers book, most still work with little modification 2021-03-28T08:18:51Z wasamasa: looking at old lisp books is cool though, you can make that stuff still work 2021-03-28T08:19:00Z siraben: the original AWK book works 100% 2021-03-28T08:19:05Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-28T08:19:18Z siraben: makes you wonder if all the churn is worth it (no) 2021-03-28T08:24:40Z dpk: wasamasa: i thought the reason was that MIT wanted to broaden its first-semester offering for EE and CS students so that EE students would get more introductory CS and CS students would get more introductory EE, and SICP was unsuitable for use in a combined course in both 2021-03-28T08:25:20Z dpk: but idk. they still offer SICP as an option for CSers, afaik 2021-03-28T08:27:55Z wasamasa: I'll have to find a source for my claim, so far https://web.archive.org/web/20090513232301/http://danweinreb.org/blog/why-did-mit-switch-from-scheme-to-python fits best 2021-03-28T08:27:56Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/YQm82V7145 2021-03-28T08:27:59Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T08:29:52Z wasamasa: but I remember a different one 2021-03-28T08:32:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T08:41:46Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-03-28T08:52:33Z amirouche: me too 2021-03-28T08:53:05Z amirouche: and I read it on MIT website. 2021-03-28T09:08:52Z wasamasa: foof: I suspect the routes list in snow-fort's config.scm is outdated 2021-03-28T09:09:36Z wasamasa: foof: I'm currently pondering what kind of extra route to add for package metadata view 2021-03-28T09:20:27Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-28T09:57:46Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T10:01:17Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-28T10:14:20Z X-Scale: re: SICP replaced by Python on MIT intro course, someone here wrote this a while ago: 2021-03-28T10:14:24Z X-Scale: > Gerald Sussmann said the main reason why they replaced Scheme with Python at MIT was because when the course started in the 1970s a programmer's goal was writing good programs while today the main focus is braindeadly cobbling something together from prefabricated libaraies and Phython represents that much better than Scheme. 2021-03-28T10:15:06Z wasamasa: yes, that's the thing I've remembered 2021-03-28T10:15:12Z wasamasa: though not using the word brain dead 2021-03-28T10:17:37Z mdhughes: The "will an employer pay me to work in Scheme" thing misses the bigger opportunity: Don't work for anyone else. Write your own code in whatever you like. Users probably don't care what it's written in if it works. 2021-03-28T10:19:43Z mdhughes: Cue Paul Graham's "secret weapon" post, whether or not LISP is relevant to his success. 2021-03-28T10:26:09Z siraben: unfortunately then we end up with hacked up software written in JS and other terrible dynamic languages 2021-03-28T10:26:21Z siraben: or static ones for that matter 2021-03-28T10:27:05Z mdhughes: Or you could write your hacked-up software in Scheme. Nobody's gonna know. 2021-03-28T10:27:18Z siraben: mmhm 2021-03-28T10:27:33Z siraben: maybe, one could become an employer and hire Scheme devs 2021-03-28T10:27:47Z mdhughes: And employers are just going to use you to make shitty JS ("must know React") software. 2021-03-28T10:28:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T10:29:49Z wasamasa: https://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/2110/why-mit-switched-from-scheme-to-python 2021-03-28T10:30:55Z gagbo[m]: I like that you always dig until you find your sources. (That's all I wanted to say, no really asking for an answer or anything) 2021-03-28T10:31:20Z wasamasa: it haunts me otherwise 2021-03-28T10:31:36Z wasamasa: good that I'm not a record collector 2021-03-28T10:31:45Z wasamasa: finding sources for all the cool samples 2021-03-28T10:33:17Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T10:35:53Z X-Scale: wasamasa: good catch; one comment: "So the reason, basically, is that software today is a train wreck, and you might as well embrace helplessness and random tinkering from the start? Horrifying." 2021-03-28T10:36:49Z wasamasa: else you wouldn't get much done 2021-03-28T10:37:18Z wasamasa: as a hobbyist you can avoid putting more software into the wild 2021-03-28T10:37:28Z wasamasa: but as a business, that's not really a solution 2021-03-28T10:47:35Z X-Scale: among several other things, what pisses me off in python is its syntax irregularity full of exceptions and ad hoc solutions. At least Java is more regular in that regard. 2021-03-28T10:47:38Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T10:53:39Z foof: wasamasa: /s////index.html 2021-03-28T10:54:22Z foof: /s////files/... 2021-03-28T10:54:43Z wasamasa: http://snow-fort.org/s/gmail.com/alexshinn/chibi/term/ansi/0.9.0/index.html suggests otherwise 2021-03-28T10:55:35Z wasamasa: considering the existence of static routes, are there plans to have more static files and maintenance scripts to regenerate them after such changes? 2021-03-28T10:56:08Z wasamasa: suppose I made a meta.html created after uploading a package, I'd need to run some script to generate it for all other existing package 2021-03-28T10:56:13Z wasamasa: kind of like a SQL migration 2021-03-28T10:56:24Z foof: that's under the // path, which will include the manual 2021-03-28T10:56:41Z foof: the top-level index.html for the module is unused 2021-03-28T10:56:45Z wasamasa: ok 2021-03-28T10:56:50Z foof: this should include links to old versions 2021-03-28T10:57:35Z foof: and files/... should just be for the current version 2021-03-28T10:58:42Z wasamasa: yeah, makes sense 2021-03-28T10:58:55Z wasamasa: I'd need to experiment some more with my local version to fully understand how it works 2021-03-28T10:59:15Z wasamasa: since there doesn't seem to be a database involved, just the file system 2021-03-28T10:59:49Z foof: that was by design - simpler, easier maintenance 2021-03-28T11:00:12Z wasamasa: it doesn't free you from careful consideration when making changes though 2021-03-28T11:00:23Z foof: and no particular need for sql queries 2021-03-28T11:01:16Z buhman quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-03-28T11:15:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T11:25:16Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T11:27:25Z amirouche: re mit and scheme, you can write reactjs app using scheme :) 2021-03-28T11:27:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T11:32:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T11:57:39Z X-Scale: re: MIT and Scheme vs Python, the first post said "It just so happens that the robotics substrate software that comes with the system they’re using is programmed in Python." 2021-03-28T11:57:54Z X-Scale: and then I saw this comment on the second post: "i’m from National University of Singapore, my lecturer was from MIT scheme class. And the teaching staff actually used scheme to create a library for us to program robots. We didn’t have to change to python" 2021-03-28T11:59:44Z mdhughes: Someone should make a Scheme compiler that generates Python bytecode. 2021-03-28T12:00:06Z wasamasa: no let for you 2021-03-28T12:00:16Z mdhughes: It is really much too easy to nerd-snipe Schemers. 2021-03-28T12:01:04Z wasamasa: instead you get setv in hy 2021-03-28T12:06:49Z wasamasa: foof: I remembered a gotcha with static file generators and index listings 2021-03-28T12:07:17Z wasamasa: foof: it's tempting to generate a index.html in each directory, but it could conflict with an index.html provided by the package 2021-03-28T12:07:41Z wasamasa: foof: I ended up generating a differently named index file and configuring nginx to look at it instead (and treat index.html as plain text) 2021-03-28T12:18:58Z wasamasa: maybe it's for the best to rename the index.html used for documentation to doc.html 2021-03-28T12:29:32Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-28T12:43:46Z midow quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T12:44:11Z X-Scale: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/software-design-flexibility follows up on that <-- thanks for this reference. It sure looks like an interesting reading. 2021-03-28T13:13:09Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-28T13:16:22Z foof: wasamasa: again, there is no conflict. currently the only files that can be generated are under the versioned path. 2021-03-28T13:16:56Z foof: we're completely free to put whatever we want under the top-level module path (so long as it doesn't conflict with a version number). 2021-03-28T13:17:37Z foof: we can add some restrictions on the version number, e.g. it can't end in .html or .scm. 2021-03-28T13:19:59Z wasamasa: what if you want to browse versioned files? 2021-03-28T13:20:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T13:21:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T13:21:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T13:25:21Z foof: I wasn't planning to allow that - I don't want this to take up much space on my server. 2021-03-28T13:28:40Z dpk: Amazon says it came out on 9 March but offers no option to buy it 2021-03-28T13:31:39Z dpk: also, whoever programmed the Dussmann website also didn't consider auto-indexing the ISBN 10 in their search database when a book's ISBN-13 is known and begins with 978 … 2021-03-28T13:34:13Z dpk: they are moderately clever about password security though. apparently they keep a copy of the haveibeenpwned.com database and stop people using passwords which are in it 2021-03-28T13:34:17Z dpk: "Ein starkes Passwort schützt vor Missbrauch. Es muss daher mindestens 6 Zeichen lang sein und 1 Zahl(en) oder Sonderzeichen enthalten. Zudem darf es nicht in der Datenbank von haveibeenpwned.com, einer Sammlung allgemein bekannter Passwörter, vorhanden sein." 2021-03-28T13:35:00Z dpk: also one would think that a German bookshop website would be able to handle addresses with ß in them and not turn my Straße into a Stra? 2021-03-28T13:35:18Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T13:35:24Z foof: ... and I'll probably restrict to the latest 3 or so versions when I get around to it. 2021-03-28T13:36:36Z dpk: anyway, have ordered the Hanson/Sussmann book. looks interesting indeed 2021-03-28T13:40:18Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-03-28T13:47:44Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-03-28T14:10:50Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T14:11:09Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-28T14:53:16Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-28T14:59:57Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T15:02:42Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-03-28T15:07:48Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T15:39:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T15:47:07Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-28T15:52:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T15:57:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T16:06:04Z midow quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-28T16:23:57Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-28T16:46:29Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-28T16:59:47Z stux16777216Away quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2021-03-28T17:01:07Z Zipheir: X-Scale: Nice, robotics in Scheme. 2021-03-28T17:02:05Z stux16777216Away joined #scheme 2021-03-28T17:05:26Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-28T17:09:24Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T17:10:01Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T17:10:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T17:11:36Z stux16777216Away quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2021-03-28T17:14:38Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T17:16:18Z stux16777216Away joined #scheme 2021-03-28T17:16:22Z supercoven_ joined #scheme 2021-03-28T17:16:27Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-03-28T17:19:20Z jcowan: The trouble is that Python bytecode is completely unstable 2021-03-28T17:19:26Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T17:35:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T17:38:10Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-28T17:39:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T17:48:42Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-28T17:51:34Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-03-28T17:53:22Z Zipheir: Python doesn't even have an official language specification, just sort of an informal model. 2021-03-28T17:55:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T17:56:18Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-28T18:08:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T18:10:10Z xandkar joined #scheme 2021-03-28T18:12:38Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T18:20:51Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T18:25:30Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T18:25:52Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-28T19:01:38Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T19:11:26Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-28T19:24:26Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-28T19:29:38Z gagbo[m] quit (Quit: authenticating) 2021-03-28T19:29:47Z gagbo[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-28T19:32:13Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-28T19:33:24Z gagbo left #scheme 2021-03-28T19:38:38Z gagbo[m] quit (Quit: authenticating) 2021-03-28T19:38:50Z gagbo[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-28T19:42:55Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-28T19:42:59Z gagbo quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T19:43:10Z gagbo[m] quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T19:43:19Z gagbo[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-28T19:48:41Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T19:49:28Z johnjay joined #scheme 2021-03-28T20:04:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T20:10:35Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-28T20:18:43Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T20:19:26Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-28T20:21:38Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T20:25:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T20:26:58Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-28T20:30:46Z supercoven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-28T20:37:27Z Moosef joined #scheme 2021-03-28T20:39:03Z Moosef: Does anyone know how to get geiser to recognize modules installed with guix? 2021-03-28T20:41:20Z jao: Moosef, geiser should be able to find them if they are in guile's %load-path (taking into account that jump to source and the like only works for modules actually loaded) 2021-03-28T20:42:51Z jao: the variable geiser-guile-load-path can be customized (or put in a .dir-locals) to add paths to %load-path automatically when the geiser repl starts. 2021-03-28T20:43:34Z jao: (all that said, i've never used guix, so i might be missing something) 2021-03-28T20:46:32Z Moosef: jao: Thanks! I thats the first thing that I tried. Still figuring out guix though and it seems to be complicating the process. I may ask this question over at #guix instead because it seems more to be a guix issue than a scheme issue I guess. 2021-03-28T20:50:00Z jao: Moosef, yeah... i'm sure you'll find people using both guix and geiser there 2021-03-28T20:50:39Z Moosef left #scheme 2021-03-28T20:51:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T20:55:49Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-28T21:10:28Z kaycoin joined #scheme 2021-03-28T21:12:16Z kaycoin quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T21:21:33Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-03-28T21:21:39Z gagbo quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-28T21:23:26Z motersen quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-28T21:24:01Z epony quit (Quit: upgrade) 2021-03-28T21:28:25Z epony joined #scheme 2021-03-28T21:37:33Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-28T21:37:50Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-28T21:42:53Z Guest29442 joined #scheme 2021-03-28T21:44:33Z Guest29442 is now known as cjbayliss 2021-03-28T21:45:37Z cjbayliss is now known as cjb 2021-03-28T22:05:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-28T22:09:30Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:22:39Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:28:15Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-28T22:56:36Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-28T22:59:22Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-28T23:33:19Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-28T23:38:33Z xsperry quit 2021-03-28T23:38:58Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-03-28T23:40:46Z madage quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-28T23:44:56Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-28T23:45:20Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-29T00:03:06Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T00:06:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-29T00:06:20Z Zipheir: What kinds of accessors do people like for mapping/hash-table structures? How do you prefer missing keys be handled? (I'm looking for ways to improve SRFI 224.) 2021-03-29T00:10:48Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T00:16:00Z polezaivsani quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-29T00:21:44Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T00:30:53Z mdhughes: I have a wrapper (href H K [D]), if I don't specify D it returns #f for no key. 2021-03-29T00:31:48Z mdhughes: And a similar wrapper (vref V I [D]), which returns on out-of-bounds. 2021-03-29T00:32:39Z Zipheir: SRFI 69 style, then. 2021-03-29T00:33:34Z mdhughes: Yeah. I don't even have a lot of opportunity to use /update, I don't typically know the value exists. 2021-03-29T00:35:08Z Zipheir: Other variants on that pattern have two (success/failure) continuations, and, in some cases, `failure' is not an optional argument. 2021-03-29T00:36:18Z mdhughes: That'd be annoying, but very Promises like. 2021-03-29T00:36:50Z mdhughes: Only time that'd be acceptable is in a database or other slow operation, where async might be required. 2021-03-29T00:37:11Z mdhughes: And in Scheme I can mostly avoid async, because the good impls have native threads. 2021-03-29T00:38:26Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-29T00:38:52Z Zipheir: OK, noted. 2021-03-29T00:42:27Z Zipheir: The questions of "how many continuations", "which are optional", "what are the defaults", etc. are obviated by returning a maybe. But some people are emphatically not a fan of that approach. 2021-03-29T00:44:13Z Zipheir: s/not a fan/not fans/ 2021-03-29T00:55:08Z Zipheir: (One thing about Maybe/Either/SRFI 189 that isn't much noted is that they provide a general language for things that succeed or fail. Through the use of those values, many CPS-style procedures refactor as compositions.) 2021-03-29T00:59:17Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-03-29T01:01:05Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T01:21:23Z future-schemer-5 joined #scheme 2021-03-29T01:22:28Z future-schemer-5 quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T01:22:33Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:27:59Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-29T01:41:56Z cjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T01:44:22Z gioyik_ joined #scheme 2021-03-29T01:47:33Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T01:51:16Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-29T01:54:15Z jjjd joined #scheme 2021-03-29T02:00:28Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T02:07:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-29T02:11:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:14:06Z mdhughes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:22:20Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-03-29T02:23:57Z gioyik_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:30:45Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-29T02:37:44Z mdhughes joined #scheme 2021-03-29T02:53:12Z mdhughes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-03-29T02:58:08Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T02:58:57Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-29T03:14:11Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T03:42:59Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:00:05Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-29T04:07:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-29T04:12:11Z greaser|q quit (Changing host) 2021-03-29T04:12:11Z greaser|q joined #scheme 2021-03-29T04:12:15Z greaser|q is now known as GreaseMonkey 2021-03-29T04:13:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:27:06Z wklew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T04:35:13Z gioyik_ joined #scheme 2021-03-29T04:35:33Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T04:45:00Z mdhughes joined #scheme 2021-03-29T04:56:41Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T04:58:31Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-29T05:04:53Z cjb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T05:06:05Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-29T05:14:36Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T05:18:42Z indathrone joined #scheme 2021-03-29T05:20:05Z indathrone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T05:33:22Z cjb quit 2021-03-29T05:34:33Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T05:35:08Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-29T05:36:14Z passchaos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T05:42:33Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-29T05:43:38Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-29T05:43:46Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T05:45:14Z indathrone joined #scheme 2021-03-29T05:46:33Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-03-29T06:01:23Z amirouche: hello #scheme :) 2021-03-29T06:01:57Z amirouche: Zipheir: I like r7rs' hash-table 2021-03-29T06:12:31Z GreaseMonkey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T06:30:31Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T06:31:41Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-03-29T06:38:59Z gioyik_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-03-29T06:51:39Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-29T06:57:01Z greaser|q joined #scheme 2021-03-29T07:06:38Z jjjd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T07:12:35Z polezaivsani joined #scheme 2021-03-29T07:20:07Z Zipheir: amirouche: So two continuations which default to (lambda () (error ...)) and values? 2021-03-29T07:33:04Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-03-29T07:34:22Z jobol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T07:34:40Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-03-29T07:41:25Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-03-29T07:54:51Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-03-29T08:02:04Z ChoHag: amirouche: The only reference to hash in r7rs is the acknowledgement of Faichi Oohashi's help... 2021-03-29T08:07:35Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-29T08:09:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-29T08:10:45Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T08:14:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T08:14:32Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-29T08:16:51Z zdravko61 joined #scheme 2021-03-29T08:17:58Z cipherchess joined #scheme 2021-03-29T08:42:55Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1) 2021-03-29T08:49:58Z amirouche: Zipheir: yes 2021-03-29T08:52:43Z amirouche: ChoHag: that is https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-125/srfi-125.html 2021-03-29T08:53:22Z amirouche: the point of the failure thunk, is that you may not want to compute the default value if there is failure. 2021-03-29T08:53:47Z amirouche: I am not sure what is the point of the success thunk. 2021-03-29T08:54:04Z amirouche: s/success thunk/sucess procedure/ 2021-03-29T09:02:12Z amirouche: e.g. in the case where the hash-table is a cache, you will want to fetch the actual value possibly over the network only in case cache miss. 2021-03-29T09:02:16Z ChoHag: Possibly so you can say (hash-table-ref t k common-failure-function common-result-munger) but then you should probably wrap hash-table-ref. 2021-03-29T09:03:24Z amirouche: The failure thunk is similar to (guard exc ((hash-table-key-error? exc) (failure)) (hash-table-ref ht ...)) without stack shuffling (afaiu) 2021-03-29T09:04:01Z ChoHag: There appears to be no rationale in the discussion. 2021-03-29T09:04:34Z ChoHag: The success field just showed up, being there and saying it's not supported by anything else. 2021-03-29T09:26:23Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T09:34:50Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-29T09:35:55Z fizzie: My guess would have been, it's for the plausible scenario where you want to apply some transformation to the returned value, but want to exempt the error case from that processing, without having to come up with a nice out-of-band value for it. For example, something like (hash-table-ref table1 key1 (lambda () '()) (lambda (key2) (hash-table-ref/default table2 key2 '()))) for "two levels of indirection", 2021-03-29T09:36:02Z fizzie: avoiding the second lookup if the first fails. 2021-03-29T09:38:04Z midow joined #scheme 2021-03-29T09:40:48Z amirouche: +1! 2021-03-29T09:40:52Z amirouche: I already did that :) 2021-03-29T09:51:07Z wklew joined #scheme 2021-03-29T09:52:19Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-29T09:56:16Z jobol: is there a 'finally' like statement for exception? (see https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Statements/try...catch#the_finally-block) 2021-03-29T09:58:56Z wasamasa: not really 2021-03-29T09:59:04Z wasamasa: there's dynamic-wind 2021-03-29T09:59:22Z wasamasa: except it behaves super weird in the face of continuations 2021-03-29T09:59:57Z wasamasa: I need to wrap dynamic-wind into exception handling :< 2021-03-29T10:08:54Z jobol: the main advantage is for doing some recovery without handling any exception, just leaving it... 2021-03-29T10:09:53Z jobol: not sure that a combination of dynamic-wind and and with-exception-handler can do that 2021-03-29T10:10:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-29T10:10:54Z dpk: my impression of Maybe is that it makes a lot of sense in a statically typed language but probably not so much in Scheme 2021-03-29T10:14:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T10:15:06Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T10:16:04Z wasamasa: same 2021-03-29T10:16:18Z wasamasa: monadic parser combinators are a cool idea, but everything beyond that, yeah no 2021-03-29T10:16:39Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-29T10:33:27Z zdravko61 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T10:36:36Z wklew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T10:38:47Z zdravko61 joined #scheme 2021-03-29T10:56:15Z midow quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-03-29T11:03:36Z richbridger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T11:39:57Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T11:41:59Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-29T11:45:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T11:47:47Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-29T11:49:52Z jobol: wasama, have 3 words to explain the :<'s pattern you use combining dynamic-wind and exception? 2021-03-29T11:54:54Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-03-29T12:02:16Z siraben: wasamasa: everything beyond what? 2021-03-29T12:03:20Z wasamasa: everything beyond that particular use of monads in dynamically typed languages 2021-03-29T12:03:49Z wasamasa: to me it seems monads are an escape hatch for less than pure computation in haskell 2021-03-29T12:03:57Z wasamasa: that escape hatch isn't necessary in scheme 2021-03-29T12:04:14Z wasamasa: a monadic parser combinator interface though, now that's useful 2021-03-29T12:04:38Z siraben: Perhaps. They're tricky to program with in Scheme for sure. I've only used monadic parser combinators in Scheme and no other use of monads. 2021-03-29T12:05:22Z wasamasa: the common pattern (besides their funny interface) is that you defer the result of a computation and can pass that around and apply it at a later point 2021-03-29T12:05:56Z wasamasa: you can see that with the maybe type, it gives you the option to either handle its result directly or hand it elsewhere 2021-03-29T12:06:27Z wasamasa: which allows you to avoid having an exception mechanism in the language 2021-03-29T12:09:13Z wasamasa: jobol: I am sad that dynamic-wind doesn't free me of having to care about exceptions and somewhat counter-intuitively, I have to catch the exceptions thrown by dynamic-wind, not by the code executed inside it 2021-03-29T12:09:32Z wasamasa: jobol: so I always have to define dynamic-wind+ in my libraries doing that to emulate the finally clause 2021-03-29T12:09:49Z amirouche: re try + finally, is the same as catching the exception, execute the finally clause and re-raise the exception (it is useful with proglang that have traceback ;) 2021-03-29T12:10:07Z zdravko61 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T12:10:28Z zdravko61 joined #scheme 2021-03-29T12:10:32Z wasamasa: regarding snow-fort, I fixed a long standing TODO about having relative publishing dates on its homepage 2021-03-29T12:10:48Z wasamasa: so you can see now on http://snow-fort.org/ that the last update happened about three months ago 2021-03-29T12:11:27Z wasamasa: let me know if you have some browser setup where it doesn't work 2021-03-29T12:14:51Z wasamasa: foof: come to think of it, I could imagine client-side search/filtering, much like on https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/ 2021-03-29T12:15:07Z wasamasa: foof: with the google search as fallback 2021-03-29T12:17:44Z jcowan: In my view, Lispers have been kludging around the absence of Maybe for decades, and sometimes the kludge is fine. 2021-03-29T12:18:35Z wasamasa: is there a promise/future monad? 2021-03-29T12:19:52Z wasamasa: apparently that's a thing 2021-03-29T12:21:28Z jcowan: I have a pre-srfi for futures that can be implemented on top of SRFI 18, although LeoNerd says that it is still very "thready". 2021-03-29T12:48:40Z motersen quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-03-29T12:48:52Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-29T12:50:58Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T12:54:45Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-29T12:55:32Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T13:02:25Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:05:15Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T13:10:04Z foof: wasamasa: thanks, the todo is patched and live 2021-03-29T13:10:27Z foof: there is client-side search with "snow-chibi search" 2021-03-29T13:10:35Z wasamasa: ah 2021-03-29T13:10:56Z foof: this was always intended as the primary interface, which is one of the reasons the web interface is so basic. 2021-03-29T13:11:31Z wasamasa: emacs people had the same idea, but eventually there was this dude giving it the well deserved web interface 2021-03-29T13:11:47Z wasamasa: they're also giving MELPA a hard time for not being compatible with M-x eww :D 2021-03-29T13:11:51Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:14:51Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T13:15:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:16:58Z jcowan thinks of starting an Emacs process and typing "M-x eww" to see what it does, but abandons the idea 2021-03-29T13:26:18Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T13:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T13:28:20Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:31:14Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T13:31:34Z astronavt joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:33:54Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T13:34:16Z astronavt joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:36:15Z wasamasa: it's just a web wowser 2021-03-29T13:37:00Z amirouche: re nested hash-table, hash-table success and maybe: some time in python I do something like dict.get(foo, {}).get(bar, {}).get(baz, {}) 2021-03-29T13:37:50Z astronavt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T13:38:34Z astronavt joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:42:40Z choas quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-29T13:45:41Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:47:13Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T13:47:14Z phwalkr joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:48:16Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:48:49Z motersen quit (Client Quit) 2021-03-29T13:54:34Z mdhughes: Objective-C has a great model for that, Key-Value Coding: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/KeyValueCoding/CollectionOperators.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20002176-BAJEAIEE 2021-03-29T13:54:35Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/FN1doPYp8f 2021-03-29T13:55:36Z mdhughes: So you can just drill down into a series of containers to get a single value, with a bunch of complex discriminators if you want. And it safely returns nil on failure. 2021-03-29T13:56:28Z choas joined #scheme 2021-03-29T13:57:31Z mdhughes: I don't much love the DSL-in-a-string interface, but Obj-C doesn't have anything like macros or symbols. Something less texty wouldn't be impossible to make in Scheme. 2021-03-29T13:58:10Z fgudin quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-03-29T14:09:06Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-29T14:09:35Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T14:14:45Z rj joined #scheme 2021-03-29T14:19:36Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-29T14:25:10Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-03-29T14:26:37Z dpk: foof: it appears to be the done thing when packaging fo Snow to use one's own name as the first element in the package name, but there are also some libraries which don't do that. which convention should i use? 2021-03-29T14:29:38Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T14:33:30Z Aquazi quit 2021-03-29T14:33:49Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-29T14:46:20Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T14:46:50Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-29T14:51:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-29T14:54:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-29T14:56:02Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-29T15:08:51Z motersen joined #scheme 2021-03-29T15:11:07Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-03-29T15:35:49Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T15:36:17Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-03-29T15:41:55Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-29T15:43:56Z supercoven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-29T15:44:42Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T15:46:16Z Aquazi quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-03-29T15:48:29Z Aquazi joined #scheme 2021-03-29T15:48:45Z Zipheir: wasamasa: There are many other monads besides I/O (which, in Haskell, isn't even a monad!) 2021-03-29T15:50:37Z Zipheir: I have heard the "monads are the statically-typed replacement for continuations" idea before, but I haven't seen an extensive demonstration yet. 2021-03-29T15:50:44Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T15:51:22Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-29T15:51:42Z Zipheir: As mentioned, one un-noted advantage of maybe/either in Scheme is that they abstract away all of those failure/success continuations. 2021-03-29T15:53:17Z amirouche: that is what I understood. 2021-03-29T15:55:53Z dpk: another thing that would be handy to have on srfi.schemers.org: a headnote of some kind on specs saying something like "This SRFI has been included in R7RS Ultramarine Edition under the name (scheme blah)" 2021-03-29T15:59:24Z Zipheir: There's usually a keyword added to the R7RS-large SRFIs. That's easy to miss, though. 2021-03-29T16:00:17Z gwatt: Zipheir: I'd be interested to see the "monads are typed call/cc" expanded upon. It seems to me that they're more a generalized interface over container types. 2021-03-29T16:00:59Z matryoshka: eww is nice, I do use it from time to time. 2021-03-29T16:05:12Z Zipheir: gwatt: Huh. Wouldn't call/cc just provide the "continuation monad"? How would it correspond to, say, the list monad? 2021-03-29T16:05:47Z Zipheir: (Incidentally, Scheme has had a monadic bind for ages--namely, let*) 2021-03-29T16:08:14Z amirouche: speaking of lets... I love letrec :) 2021-03-29T16:08:16Z gwatt: Zipheir: I guess, if you think that call/cc can be treated as a monad. 2021-03-29T16:09:06Z gwatt: s|call/cc|continuations| 2021-03-29T16:09:36Z LeoNerd: "If it helps, you can think of a monad as a monoid in the category of endofunctors" ".. No I can't." 2021-03-29T16:09:52Z Zipheir: Hah, Iry's joke, in another form. 2021-03-29T16:13:16Z Zipheir: More, Scheme's "truth" (value-or-#f) protocol approximates maybe values, and cond-arrow/and-let* are the bind forms. 2021-03-29T16:14:58Z Zipheir: Monads all around us. 2021-03-29T16:18:43Z Zipheir: gwatt: call/cc: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/12/mother-of-all-monads.html 2021-03-29T16:19:38Z gwatt: But conf/and-let* only work on the value-or-#f style. It's not generally applicable to all monads 2021-03-29T16:19:57Z Zipheir: Hence it's the Maybe monad, lossily. 2021-03-29T16:20:23Z Zipheir: (There's the #f-can't-be-a-value issue.) 2021-03-29T16:20:54Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-29T16:21:53Z LeoNerd: "#f can't be a value" is sometimes annoying. In Perl I often fix that by using list returns; either return nothing, or a list of one item - then that item can be false/undef and be distinct from empty 2021-03-29T16:23:22Z Zipheir: Oof. 2021-03-29T16:27:46Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-29T16:27:57Z Zipheir: I'm not fond of that design choice in the languages that made it. I understand that it was a worthwhile performance hack decades ago to have a boolean double as a failure indicator (as the empty list, etc.). 2021-03-29T16:28:03Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-29T16:29:21Z Zipheir: But this is likely religious territority, so I don't want to press the issue. 2021-03-29T16:29:32Z Zipheir: *territory 2021-03-29T16:35:12Z jao joined #scheme 2021-03-29T16:40:47Z _apg joined #scheme 2021-03-29T16:41:29Z dpk: this is probably obvious, but i'm currently extremely tired. why does the default comparator think these bytevectors go in this order? #u8(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 254) #u8(0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0) #u8(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 255) 2021-03-29T16:42:03Z Zipheir: The default comparator is also extremely tired? 2021-03-29T16:42:06Z dpk: or … wait, maybe this is a bug in vector-merge, not in the default comparator 2021-03-29T16:42:34Z dpk: okay yeah it's the default comparator 2021-03-29T16:42:44Z dpk: ( #t 2021-03-29T16:44:06Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-29T16:44:12Z dpk: wat 2021-03-29T16:44:19Z dpk: ( also #t 2021-03-29T16:45:10Z Zipheir: Yeah, looks like a bug. 2021-03-29T16:45:30Z Zipheir: Very weird. 2021-03-29T16:47:57Z dpk: … and of course there's no bytevector A fixnum is an exact integer that is small enough to fit in a machine word. 2021-03-31T16:03:09Z Zipheir: Sure. I'd like a more general source than a specific Scheme's manual page, though. 2021-03-31T16:03:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-31T16:05:04Z gwatt: All I can find in the rnrs documents is "A fixnum is an exact integer object that lies within a certain implementation-dependent subrange of the exact integer objects." 2021-03-31T16:05:54Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:05:55Z supercoven joined #scheme 2021-03-31T16:06:28Z Zipheir: gwatt: Do you have a section/page ref. for that quote? I can't find it. 2021-03-31T16:06:44Z Zipheir: (Looking in R7RS.pdf at the moment.) 2021-03-31T16:07:20Z gwatt: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-6.html#node_sec_3.3 2021-03-31T16:07:31Z Zipheir: gwatt: Thanks! 2021-03-31T16:07:41Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:07:45Z gwatt: not seeing it in r5rs though 2021-03-31T16:07:56Z gwatt: but, it is in *a* standards doc 2021-03-31T16:09:31Z Zipheir: Yes, it looks like R7RS didn't include any of that either. 2021-03-31T16:10:27Z Zipheir: Good enough for me. I'm perfectly fine with citing R6 (which I do not believe to be the work of Satan). 2021-03-31T16:12:44Z gwatt: It's probably best to cite r6rs for fixnums as they're not mentioned at all in r5rs or r7rs. It looks like r6rs formalized fixnums where r[57]rs have less specific numeric towers. 2021-03-31T16:13:32Z Zipheir: Probably because R6 provided fixnum and flonum libraries. 2021-03-31T16:30:52Z amirouche: Gambit is alien tech sure thing 2021-03-31T16:31:09Z amirouche: Termite does everything CML can do. 2021-03-31T16:31:28Z amirouche: with less datatypes, and less procedures. 2021-03-31T16:34:50Z ecraven: is termite maintained? 2021-03-31T16:34:55Z amirouche: yes 2021-03-31T16:36:41Z amirouche: It was improved with R7RS: it can automate the distribution of compiled code, with the support of git repositories as libraries similar to what go does, it also support hot code updates. 2021-03-31T16:37:11Z amirouche: the first part means that new code is always compiled across OS / architecture, previously it was eval'ed. 2021-03-31T16:37:55Z amirouche: and it still has an edge over erlang, because it can migrate continuations to another node. 2021-03-31T16:38:04Z dpk: Zipheir: extremely quick pre-draft of a draft of a pre-SRFI for a potential eventual SRFI https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2098641 2021-03-31T16:38:49Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-31T16:40:14Z amirouche: ecraven: SMP, multi-core cpu, support was merged in master, but still disabled by default. 2021-03-31T16:42:09Z Zipheir: dpk: Nice! 2021-03-31T16:44:55Z ecraven: wow, I haven't looked at termite in a long time, but I really should ; 2021-03-31T16:48:08Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T16:52:52Z Zipheir: dpk: So if C is the composition of comparators D1, D2, ..., Dn, then x ≡C y iff x ≡D1 y ∧ x ≡D2 y ∧ ... ∧ x ≡Dn y. Does the same hold for the ordering given by C? 2021-03-31T16:53:30Z Zipheir: i.e. x , then < is the result 2021-03-31T17:15:12Z Zipheir: And god-only-knows on hashing... 2021-03-31T17:15:22Z Zipheir immediately hears the Beach Boys. 2021-03-31T17:15:22Z dpk: err, *but Dn+1 is > 2021-03-31T17:16:50Z dpk: it's not too strange. it's how lists would compare, for instance. (maybe protocol achieves that 2021-03-31T17:43:04Z jcowan: s/protocol/procedure 2021-03-31T17:44:47Z jcowan: I think for generator constructors we need make-values-generator, which accepts n generators and returns n values, one from each generator. In addition, make-coroutine-generator should accept any number of arguments to the yield procedure 2021-03-31T17:46:02Z jcowan: (Actuallly, that's an operation, so gvalues-generator 2021-03-31T17:47:06Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T17:47:42Z jcowan: gmap needs to accept ma's and return mv's 2021-03-31T17:47:59Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-03-31T17:48:29Z Noisytoot is now known as []{}\|^`- 2021-03-31T17:49:02Z jcowan: in fact, all operators from gmap to the end need a bit of a rewrite 2021-03-31T17:51:08Z []{}\|^`- is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-31T17:51:08Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T17:51:46Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-31T17:52:43Z jcowan: also another generator that converts multiple-valued results to single-valued by sending them through a procedure, basically a composition of gmap and gvalues 2021-03-31T17:53:03Z jcowan: no, that's not right 2021-03-31T17:53:10Z jcowan: Anyway, it's obviously feasible 2021-03-31T17:53:54Z Noisytoot is now known as |||||| 2021-03-31T17:54:23Z |||||| is now known as Guest7851 2021-03-31T17:58:33Z Guest7851 is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-31T18:00:36Z Zipheir: amirouche: Speaking of generators, here's what I'm adding to SRFI 224: imapping->generator, which generates (key . value) pairs in increasing order of key, and imapping->decreasing-generator, which generates the pairs in decreasing order. Anything else you want you can do with gmap. 2021-03-31T18:01:03Z Zipheir: s/generates/produces a generator which generates/g 2021-03-31T18:02:35Z Zipheir: I'm not going to bother with the inverse conversion or an accumulator; they're trivial to implement with generator-fold or make-accumulator, respectively. 2021-03-31T18:04:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-31T18:08:38Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:12:39Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:14:02Z ineiros joined #scheme 2021-03-31T18:17:03Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-03-31T18:19:06Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-03-31T18:21:54Z zooey_ joined #scheme 2021-03-31T18:21:57Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:35:33Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T18:35:52Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-31T18:41:57Z amirouche: You know better than me! From what I have seen (imapping->generator imap start end) would be best. 2021-03-31T18:42:26Z amirouche: where start and end can be such as start < end and end < start for the reverse generator 2021-03-31T18:43:38Z amirouche: it depends on the actual implemention, but from the outside, it seems very useful. 2021-03-31T18:44:12Z amirouche: also imapping-split could be done with imapping->generator 2021-03-31T18:48:12Z abralek[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T18:48:29Z abralek[m] joined #scheme 2021-03-31T18:52:42Z madage joined #scheme 2021-03-31T18:55:11Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T18:56:37Z Zipheir: amirouche: I'm adding imapping-split, too. 2021-03-31T18:57:02Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-03-31T18:58:10Z Zipheir: Whether using start/end indices is more efficient than simply taking a submapping is probably implementation-dependent. 2021-03-31T18:58:52Z Zipheir: Interval operations are pretty damn fast with big-endian radix trees. 2021-03-31T18:59:39Z Zipheir: (O(1) in some optimal cases, like "all negative-keyed elements".) 2021-03-31T19:01:15Z Zipheir: But that would likely not be good with a hash-table implementation in which subset operations are expensive. 2021-03-31T19:01:28Z Zipheir: Apologies for thinking out loud. 2021-03-31T19:01:36Z amirouche: no worries on my side. 2021-03-31T19:02:21Z amirouche: I do not know the implementation, with binary balanced trees, one can add a pointer up the tree, and quickly travel through a range of values. 2021-03-31T19:11:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-31T19:13:52Z Zipheir: OK, here's a question. If you're splitting an ordered mapping on a key k, should k and its associated value appear in one of the halves? (i.e. should splitting use ≤ and >, or < and > ?) 2021-03-31T19:15:26Z amirouche: I do not remember, look into what finger trees do. 2021-03-31T19:15:36Z Zipheir: Or should you get three values, namely, the key/value pair (or a Just thereof), the (strictly) lesser mapping, and the (strictly) greater? 2021-03-31T19:15:48Z Zipheir: I'm talking generally, not about any specific structure. 2021-03-31T19:16:12Z Zipheir: Haskell's IntMap library provides both flavors. 2021-03-31T19:16:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-31T19:16:39Z dpk: hmm. i'd say ≤ and > 2021-03-31T19:21:21Z Zipheir: dpk: Thanks. 2021-03-31T19:26:47Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2021-03-31T19:29:28Z cipherch1ss is now known as cipherchess 2021-03-31T19:30:20Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-03-31T19:31:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-31T19:35:22Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-03-31T19:35:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T19:49:29Z dieggsy: Zipheir: i dunno anything about ordered mappings but I'd be inclined to include it in the uh. 'second' half. Like srif-1's split-at, sort of 2021-03-31T19:51:56Z Zipheir: That would be < and ≥, then. 2021-03-31T19:52:10Z Zipheir: Hmm. Quite a few options. 2021-03-31T19:53:39Z Zipheir: Lists are, incidentally, isomorphic to integer mappings (both can represent partial functions from integers to arbitrary values). 2021-03-31T19:57:20Z Zipheir: Well, integer mappings with keys in ℕ. 2021-03-31T20:00:43Z dpk: hmm, what was that trick for representing sets of integer ranges (especially ranges of Unicode characters) … 2021-03-31T20:01:38Z dpk: something like, store a sorted array of alternating start and end integers for each range. binary search the array and if the index is even, the integer is in one of the sets in the range, and if odd, it isn't? 2021-03-31T20:01:55Z dpk: jcowan told me about it, iirc … i should write it down somewhere 2021-03-31T20:10:11Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T20:11:38Z dpk: "a nice encoding trick for sets of Unicode codepoints (or any other integers, really) is an array [first, last+1, first, last+1] ... then to find out if a codepoint is in the set, do a binary search. if the result is odd it's in, and if even it's out" 2021-03-31T20:12:38Z amirouche: rudybot: how to encode sets of unicode codepoints? 2021-03-31T20:13:09Z rudybot: amirouche: "Note, however, that the Unicode Standard does not encode idiosyncratic, personal, novel, or private-use characters, nor does it encode logos or graphics. Graphologies unrealated to text, such as dance notations, are likewise outside the scope of the Unicode Standard" <-- so how long till we get dance codepoints, do you think? 2015? 2021-03-31T20:13:39Z Zipheir: Wow, that's really old. 2021-03-31T20:19:01Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-03-31T20:21:25Z teiresias: I'm still surprised that Unicode has code points for braille, considering that braille is really just a coding system. 2021-03-31T20:27:27Z deuill quit (Quit: Gateway shutdown) 2021-03-31T20:32:48Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T20:33:53Z dpk: Zipheir: < and ≥ match split-at and only need a comparison predicate if you're moving left-to-right through the list; ≤ and > would require an equality predicate as well, or else to move right-to-left through the list 2021-03-31T20:37:16Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T20:41:10Z Zipheir: dpk: I'm not sure what you mean about the predicates. 2021-03-31T20:43:38Z dpk: actually, neither am i 2021-03-31T20:44:11Z dpk: time for me to sleep, clearly 2021-03-31T20:44:47Z dpk: if i split (1 2 2 3 5) at 2 using < as a comparison predicate <, i get (1) (2 2 3 5). if i want (1 2 2) (3 5), i have to have ≤, not <, and that generally means i need = as well as < 2021-03-31T20:44:48Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-31T20:45:02Z jcowan: Braille is treated as a system of symbols, not of letters 2021-03-31T20:45:06Z dpk: (the stuff about left-to-right vs right-to-left is my brain being silly, i think) 2021-03-31T20:45:28Z dpk puts her silly brain to bed 2021-03-31T20:45:36Z Zipheir: dpk: Ah, ok. 2021-03-31T20:45:41Z Zipheir: dpk: Good night. :) 2021-03-31T20:46:15Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T20:48:03Z polezaivsani quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-03-31T20:57:34Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-03-31T21:01:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-31T21:05:51Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T21:07:04Z Noisytoot is now known as ihatecoronaandih 2021-03-31T21:07:24Z ihatecoronaandih is now known as Noisytoot 2021-03-31T21:08:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-03-31T21:10:37Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T21:19:58Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-03-31T21:26:56Z jeko: Hi there ! 2021-03-31T21:44:08Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-03-31T21:59:13Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T22:10:06Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-03-31T22:10:17Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-03-31T22:17:54Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-03-31T22:19:24Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-31T22:20:02Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-03-31T22:30:56Z indathrone quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-03-31T22:32:52Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-03-31T22:46:54Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-03-31T22:56:57Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-03-31T23:00:54Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-03-31T23:01:01Z notzmv is now known as Guest89795 2021-03-31T23:07:02Z cjb joined #scheme 2021-03-31T23:09:17Z Guest89795 is now known as notzmv 2021-03-31T23:16:51Z Zipheir: For split, I'm thinking that ≤ and > make the most sense. 2021-03-31T23:17:08Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T23:20:00Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-31T23:44:32Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-03-31T23:44:36Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-03-31T23:45:37Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:47:06Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:51:01Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-03-31T23:54:08Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-03-31T23:56:03Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-03-31T23:56:50Z badkins joined #scheme