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2021-02-01T00:54:01Z amirouche: Riastradh: what do you recommend to read regarding LALR parsers? I want to implement a skribe reader that is a superset of s-exp
2021-02-01T00:54:42Z amirouche: I already did a poc with parser combinators but at least my parser combinator library does not have a lot of helper for handling errors
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2021-02-01T02:06:58Z dieggsy: damn, i've just learned syntax-rules is more magical than i even thought
2021-02-01T02:07:05Z dieggsy: it's simple, but this (define-syntax test (syntax-rules () ((_ a b ...) (list (foo a) (foo b) ...) ))) is wild to me
2021-02-01T02:07:57Z dieggsy: (oh, youre just calling foo on the arg, i know how to do that! then if you pass c, d, it calls foo on the mtoo)
2021-02-01T02:08:12Z dieggsy: i guess it's basic stuff, but pretty neat stuff. i hadn't really used it that way, i guess
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2021-02-01T02:32:31Z jcowan: Zipheir: Here's the key explanation to ML overloading: "I found https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/class-letter/class-letter.txt, which explains how Edinburgh ML does it (and how Haskell does classes): First, type inference is performed, where the type of the overloaded identifier is taken to be the type given in the OVERLOAD declaration.  Second, after type inference each occurrence of an overloaded identifier
2021-02-01T02:32:32Z jcowan: is examined.  If its type matches that of an instance, then the identifier is replaced by the corresponding instance value.  If its type matches no instance, then the overloading cannot be resolved, and an error is declared.
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2021-02-01T02:37:55Z mdhughes: Despite the sexual connotations turning some people off, I like the BDSM comparison for static typing. It's a fetish for asking permission and being told no.
2021-02-01T02:38:35Z mdhughes: Dynamic is helpful. You say "hold this" and it says "OK".
2021-02-01T02:39:04Z mdhughes: Untyped is destructive, you hand a piano to the system and get back a bag of oranges.
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2021-02-01T02:51:44Z Zipheir: Oh, please.
2021-02-01T02:52:20Z Zipheir: jcowan: Thanks!  Yeah, that email is very helpful for the practical details.  It's not a particularly complicated approach.
2021-02-01T02:53:19Z lockywolf: yay https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0638/
2021-02-01T02:57:24Z Zipheir: Debates about type systems are always overstuffed with metaphors.  They're usually about as helpful as the burrito metaphor for monads.
2021-02-01T03:01:09Z jcowan chuckles.
2021-02-01T03:01:22Z jcowan: I don't think the burrito (i.e. container) metaphor for monads is fine.
2021-02-01T03:02:28Z Zipheir: Yeah, I suppose that's actually rather illustrative when you think about it.
2021-02-01T03:03:18Z mdhughes: Monads are the Alameda-Weehawken Burrito Tunnel. Non-lazy functions are the burritos.
2021-02-01T03:03:35Z jcowan: see "We're in the Monad" <http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4708>
2021-02-01T03:04:44Z siraben: mdhughes: monads are just functors with an associativity condition and unit
2021-02-01T03:04:51Z Zipheir: https://ro-che.info/ccc/9
2021-02-01T03:05:31Z siraben: e.g. If you have a [[[Int]]] and want a [Int], you can concatenate the outer two layers first followed by the inner or the other way around
2021-02-01T03:05:39Z jcowan: "A monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors.  _What's the problem?_"
2021-02-01T03:05:49Z siraben: either way the monad laws say that you have to end up with the same result
2021-02-01T03:06:08Z siraben: jcowan: it is!
2021-02-01T03:06:21Z siraben: it's actually a brilliant definition
2021-02-01T03:06:36Z jcowan: It's the last three words.
2021-02-01T03:07:23Z Zipheir: siraben: Emily Riehl actually spends the first three pages of her chapter on monads discussing why that's a really brilliant definition.  She quotes Iry's joke-article several times.
2021-02-01T03:07:53Z Zipheir: (The book being Category Theory in Context.)
2021-02-01T03:07:58Z siraben: Zipheir: haha, cartesian closed comic is on point
2021-02-01T03:08:02Z siraben: I see
2021-02-01T03:08:45Z mdhughes: https://ro-che.info/ccc/27   Actual result: "We couldn't understand it, so had it rewritten in Java."
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2021-02-01T03:11:49Z Zipheir: There is too much Haskell circle-jerkery in that comic for me, but it's sometimes quite funny.
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2021-02-01T03:14:07Z lockywolf: I remember a footnote in SICP saying: "At a conference on programming languages you might hear someone say, “e normal-order language Hassle has certain strict primitives."
2021-02-01T03:15:14Z Zipheir: Heh, yes.
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2021-02-01T04:25:36Z dieggsy: is there a way to ensure that a syntax-rules identifier is not a list? like as a dumb example (syntax-rules () ((_ a b c) (list a b c))) somehow ensure that a isn't some (...)
2021-02-01T04:26:03Z dieggsy: or not a function call i guess
2021-02-01T04:32:00Z Zipheir: The usual trick is to have that pattern follow a pattern to catch a list, e.g. ((_ (x x2 ..) b c) (syntax-error "bad stuff"))
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2021-02-01T04:35:32Z Zipheir: And, of course, a "function call" is just a list, syntactically.
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2021-02-01T04:39:41Z lockywolf: ymfu http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macro-symbol-p.txt
2021-02-01T04:40:03Z lockywolf: "How to write symbol? with syntax-rules"
2021-02-01T04:42:42Z dieggsy: Zipheir: oh, that makes sense actually
2021-02-01T04:42:47Z dieggsy: lockywolf: thanks for the link
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2021-02-01T07:06:45Z Riastradh: amirouche1: (re lalr) I like lemon but I realize that's not very helpful here.
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2021-02-01T07:33:29Z ManDay: Good morning. I'm sure this is something that's super nicely doable in Scheme: I have a string which starts with a syntactically correct form "( <...> ) <more stuff>", how can I leverage the parser to extract it in the sense that I a) detect where the form ends (the ")"), and b) turn it into a (lambda (x y z)) ?
2021-02-01T07:34:01Z ManDay: I've never done that kind of thing, so if you could give me a keyword that I should look up, that would help me!
2021-02-01T07:34:14Z ManDay: (or a link ^^)
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2021-02-01T07:42:34Z mdhughes: (read) is your friend.
2021-02-01T07:44:06Z mdhughes: You'll need to set the standard input to a string, which in Chez is easiest (with-input-from-string somestring (read))
2021-02-01T07:45:14Z mdhughes: Standard's a little uglier, you have to open-string-input-port and make sure to close it after or you'll leak.
2021-02-01T07:46:37Z mdhughes: As for turning it into lambda or anything else, that's eval
2021-02-01T07:49:36Z ManDay: Ah of course, the latter was silly of me (I was wondering about binding x y z correctly, but with scheme's scoping...). Thanks for both mdhughes !
2021-02-01T07:49:48Z mdhughes: np.
2021-02-01T07:51:30Z mdhughes: Of course the standard REPL is literally just (let loop [] (display (eval (read))) (newline) (loop)) with some error handling and such.
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2021-02-01T08:57:50Z amirouche1: Riastradh: I will look at lemon
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2021-02-01T10:49:05Z ManDay:    The end-of-file object is unlike any other kind of object: it’s not a
2021-02-01T10:49:06Z ManDay: pair, a symbol, or anything else.yy
2021-02-01T10:49:11Z ManDay: Isn't that funny?
2021-02-01T10:50:03Z ManDay: I think that's the weirdest statement I've read I've read in a language documentation.
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2021-02-01T10:55:10Z ManDay: (guile)
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2021-02-01T10:57:33Z ManDay: why create an entire new language concept for eof? why not simply return #f or sth of that sort?
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2021-02-01T11:00:37Z tdammers: my guess would be that this is an attempt at a faithful replication of the weirdness that C has wrt EOF
2021-02-01T11:01:09Z tdammers: in C, EOF isn't a first-class object at all, it's just a particular state that a handle can be in, and you can call a procedure to test for it
2021-02-01T11:01:59Z tdammers: but "EOF" is not a value you can return from anything
2021-02-01T11:04:06Z ManDay: Erm, isn't C's logic owing simply to the fact that it can't return polymorphically?
2021-02-01T11:04:20Z ManDay: Whereas in scheme, get-line or whatever could easily return #f
2021-02-01T11:08:26Z ManDay: Color me stupid mdhughes , but I don't understand the documentation of (eval). They give me three possible environments, all of which are some variation of "in an environment with bindings in the report"; but I just want to execute the eval in the current environment?
2021-02-01T11:08:58Z ManDay: i think I must be misunderstanding something
2021-02-01T11:10:22Z tdammers: well yeah, kind of
2021-02-01T11:10:32Z tdammers: C can return "polymorphically" in a way, but it's a bit awkward
2021-02-01T11:10:40Z ManDay: null pointer, you mean?
2021-02-01T11:10:45Z tdammers: no, that wouldn't work
2021-02-01T11:10:49Z ManDay: i know
2021-02-01T11:10:50Z tdammers: union-of-structs, most likely
2021-02-01T11:10:52Z ManDay: what do you mean?
2021-02-01T11:10:55Z ManDay: ah, yes.
2021-02-01T11:11:00Z ManDay: that's beyond awkward :D
2021-02-01T11:11:33Z tdammers: par for the course in C, but if you're doing low-level stuff, the extra byte tagged onto each read operation would probably become prohibitive more often than you'd like
2021-02-01T11:12:14Z ManDay: sure, but that aint nothing of the language's concern. that's behind the scenes
2021-02-01T11:12:37Z tdammers: I'm not saying I'm a fan of how guile does it
2021-02-01T11:12:42Z ManDay: specifying that get-line return #f in case of eof, I don't see how that had perf implications
2021-02-01T11:12:49Z ManDay: aight
2021-02-01T11:12:53Z ManDay: just a curiousity anyway
2021-02-01T11:13:09Z ManDay: "It's not [...] or anything else." is just pretty funny imo :-D
2021-02-01T11:13:19Z tdammers: the performance thing isn't really relevant in scheme/guile, but my guess would be that they just tried to do something that resembles the C API
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2021-02-01T11:14:19Z tdammers: I mean, in a way *all* returns in scheme are polymorphic (though a Sufficiently Smart Compiler could monomorphize things when it can infer that it is safe to do so)
2021-02-01T11:15:48Z ManDay doesn't understand why there isn't simply an "eval" which just executes in-place like javascript's, for instance
2021-02-01T11:16:16Z ManDay: It's so confusing. "I just want to do <simple thing> but scheme wants me to <some weird stuff>!"
2021-02-01T11:20:53Z _________: ManDay: isn't eval-string what you want ? e.g. (eval-string "(+ 1 2)")
2021-02-01T11:21:29Z ManDay: Lol, I can't read your name in weechat, mysterious replier
2021-02-01T11:21:47Z _________: lol, it's just a few underscores ;)
2021-02-01T11:21:59Z ManDay: oh, haha, are you nuts
2021-02-01T11:22:01Z ManDay: okay
2021-02-01T11:22:05Z ManDay: well, i guess that could be it
2021-02-01T11:22:08Z _________: :D
2021-02-01T11:22:33Z ManDay: but that sounds like a difference in the argument. i do have the thing as a scheme expression (from (read))
2021-02-01T11:23:14Z edgar-rft: OMG, aukkras nick is has hit an EOF in Guile!
2021-02-01T11:23:25Z ManDay: I mean from my trial (interaction-environment) does work (my own bindings are still there), but I haven't got the faitest how this comes from the documentation
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2021-02-01T11:23:46Z ManDay: *faintest
2021-02-01T11:24:17Z ManDay: I really just wish it did the (eval) in the most ordinary way, including all its implications, as if I had typed it there.
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2021-02-01T11:27:29Z mdhughes: (eval s) will usually evaluate in (interaction-environment), but that's an impl-specific choice.
2021-02-01T11:27:34Z mdhughes: If you care, you should specify it.
2021-02-01T11:28:07Z ManDay: it's not like the second argument were optional
2021-02-01T11:28:14Z mdhughes: It is in most impls.
2021-02-01T11:28:35Z _________: ManDay: (primitive-eval (read))
2021-02-01T11:29:50Z ManDay: mdhughes:  it isn't in r6rs nor in guile. but let's just say that it were, I still fail to see how the description of the default (interaction-environment) corresponds to my "just do it here"
2021-02-01T11:29:57Z mdhughes: primitive-eval is *really* not standard, and won't help you.
2021-02-01T11:33:04Z mdhughes: A lot of the REPL-specific things like interaction-environment aren't in the spec, but in your library docs.
2021-02-01T11:33:44Z mdhughes: And r6rs-lib will even tell you that, end of §19
2021-02-01T11:34:37Z ManDay: §?
2021-02-01T11:34:56Z ManDay: mdhughes: what does this have to do with REPL?
2021-02-01T11:35:02Z ManDay: I'm not using REPL at all
2021-02-01T11:36:47Z mdhughes: Well, then what environment do you want to be working in? In Chez, you can use (copy-environment (scheme-environment)) to make a new isolated env for your evals.
2021-02-01T11:38:42Z mdhughes: But, jcowan has a sandbox environment that just has "safe" operations, so you can sort of safely read & execute hostile network code.
2021-02-01T11:38:52Z ManDay: mdhughes: I truly don't understand the question at all. When I write .....(eval something).... in my source, I want it to behave as if I had written ....something... there myself.
2021-02-01T11:39:06Z ManDay: What is there to be thought about "environments"?
2021-02-01T11:39:17Z ManDay: Just like Javascript's eval() I want it.
2021-02-01T11:39:41Z ManDay: You write eval(something) and it amounts to writing "something" into the source
2021-02-01T11:40:01Z mdhughes: But WHERE are you evalling that code? In an environment. You may have to specify (interaction-environment) or something else; some Schemes are just nice enough to give that default.
2021-02-01T11:40:46Z ManDay: mdhughes: Again, I don't understand what you mean by "Where" I eval it. I want it to behave exactly as if I had written that code in place. Isn't that a well-defined requirement?
2021-02-01T11:40:54Z mdhughes: JS eval is unsafe because it's always pointing at the real environment. Scheme's lets you put that in a box with limited functions.
2021-02-01T11:41:11Z ManDay: I don't want to put it into a box. Which environment would that be?
2021-02-01T11:41:13Z mdhughes: "I JUST WANTS IT" well, I told you where to do it for that.
2021-02-01T11:43:16Z ManDay: i think this is mostly a misunderstanding
2021-02-01T11:43:48Z ManDay: (fwiw i'm not writing in caps and I'm not upset or anything, I just think what I want to do, may it be unsafe, is well defined and does not raise the question of an environment)
2021-02-01T11:44:20Z mdhughes: Incorrect, as the definition of eval will tell you.
2021-02-01T11:44:38Z mdhughes: `Evaluates expression in the specified environment and re- turns its value.`
2021-02-01T11:44:41Z ManDay: But if like you said JS's eval() is just an unsafe specific case of Scheme's eval, then I'd like to know which "environment" turns it into JS's eval
2021-02-01T11:45:04Z ManDay: s/specific/special
2021-02-01T11:45:25Z ManDay: As I can't read any such information out of the docs
2021-02-01T11:45:53Z mdhughes: `mdhughes: (eval s) will usually evaluate in (interaction-environment), but that's an impl-specific choice.`
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2021-02-01T11:46:32Z mdhughes: I don't have guile handy, don't really care to read it, but I bet you can with that information.
2021-02-01T11:51:23Z ManDay: mdhughes: If you have missed that: I've already found out that (interaction-environment) works for me. But the fact that that environment does include all the bindings that occur at the source location does not seem to follow from the documentation. That's my only concern.
2021-02-01T11:52:09Z ManDay: The description of these environments only asser that they contain bindings from the report, but never it is mentioned that my bindings are also in it
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2021-02-01T11:53:30Z mdhughes: The CSUG explains it well, but I dunno/don't care what Guile does, I don't touch GNU software unless I absolutely have to.
2021-02-01T11:53:40Z ManDay: (interaction-environment): Return a specifier for the environment that contains implementation–defined bindings, typically a superset of those listed in the report.  The intent is that this procedure will return the environment in which the implementation would evaluate expressions dynamically typed by the user.
2021-02-01T11:53:49Z ManDay: mdhughes: fair enough
2021-02-01T11:55:56Z ManDay: I can't understand how the standard doesn't mention it, though
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2021-02-01T12:03:24Z mdhughes: Despite R6RS being the "large enough to be useful" spec, apparently there was knife-fighting in the committee between incompatible impls.
2021-02-01T12:04:32Z ManDay: heh
2021-02-01T12:04:33Z mdhughes: Thus R7RS, which I think is an overreaction. But since there's multiple R6RS impls, and likely to continue being so, I don't really worry about future specs.
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2021-02-01T12:08:43Z edgar-rft: R8RS will be sooo big that nobody lives long enough to read it in full length.
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2021-02-01T13:50:04Z Riastradh: tdammers: On the contrary, `EOF' _is_ a specific int object in C (although its value as an integer is unspecified, but usually it's -1).
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2021-02-01T14:08:48Z tdammers: and yet, fgets() does not return
2021-02-01T14:08:58Z tdammers: "the EOF object" on EOF, but NULL
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2021-02-01T14:51:34Z dieggsy: mdhughes:  "I don't touch GNU software unless I absolutely have to" Intriguing, how come? are you a BSD user?
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2021-02-01T14:52:48Z aeth: dieggsy: A lot of people see the whole "GNU/Linux" thing as GNU trying to take credit for other people's work since GNU software is a tiny portion of a modern Linux distro, and it's increasingly so since they started that whole "GNU/Linux" thing.
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2021-02-01T14:54:38Z aeth: Even post-Wayland, the most visible/important components (if a graphical system, anyway) are still probably Xorg and Firefox, neither of which are GNU.
2021-02-01T14:54:48Z ManDay: The little I knew about that whole GNU/Linux thing I've already forgotten, so essentially I know nothing about GNU and in my naivety it has never crossed my mind that I should give credit to "GNU", I don't think that concern is reasonable
2021-02-01T14:55:14Z ManDay: I give credit to the developers of individual projects. Perhaps I'm not being political enough?
2021-02-01T14:55:26Z mdhughes: Some of all of that. I really dislike Stallman (his behavior with GCC & glibc esp., but his creepy personal shit too), the FSF, the GNU "everything must be GNU" agenda. And I have nice working BSD (and Mac, which is mach-BSD-NeXTstep) systems.
2021-02-01T14:56:27Z aeth: dieggsy: Another thing that soured people on GNU is that they won't give credit to or recommend very strict, popular FOSS-only distros like Debian or Fedora because they're not quite good enough, instead promoting really niche distros that probably aren't newbie-friendly over essentially a technicality (firmware) when you probably do want that proprietary firmware so you can, you know, run on real hardware and stuff.
2021-02-01T14:56:28Z mdhughes: And generally anything that has a GNU version is bloated and annoying compared to the original. GNU `true` has options.
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2021-02-01T14:57:38Z ManDay: mdhughes: it sure is entirely your choice, but I don't quite how see how disliking a person or even group of people has anything to do with their software
2021-02-01T14:57:44Z dieggsy: ah, i'm aware of most of these issues, just wondering the specifics in this case. what's your bsd of choice?
2021-02-01T14:57:53Z mdhughes: Software reflects the people who make it.
2021-02-01T14:58:01Z ManDay: FreeBSD; of course! :-P
2021-02-01T14:58:21Z ManDay: "Software reflects the people who make it" what the heck is that supposed to mean, lol
2021-02-01T14:58:36Z mdhughes: I am also a FreeBSD, but I have nothing against Net or Open. Just easiest to do what I need on FreeBSD.
2021-02-01T14:59:32Z mdhughes: Ever see TRON? The programs we make have our soul in them, and live little lives inside the computer. Bad people make MCP. Good people make TRON, who fights for the user.
2021-02-01T15:00:01Z ManDay: I... disagree. If Hitler & Stalin had a good Wayland browser I'd jump at it!
2021-02-01T15:00:11Z ManDay: I really don't care who's behind it. I'd even donate.
2021-02-01T15:00:24Z mdhughes: I would not.
2021-02-01T15:00:27Z dieggsy: I actually love BSD, but basically I use steam and Netflix which is a big reason why I stick to Linux
2021-02-01T15:01:32Z mdhughes: Also Wayland is very much the kind of thing I dislike in Linux, it fails to even solve the problem, and doesn't replace the original use case of X11.
2021-02-01T15:01:45Z dieggsy: ManDay: I see the point you're trying to make but donating (depending on how it's managed) can be a form of direct support for the software dev, which I'm your exaggerated example... lol
2021-02-01T15:01:55Z ex_nihilo: mdhughes: curious about development tools-- do you prefer Clang to GCC? are you an emacs user, vim, something else?
2021-02-01T15:02:53Z ManDay: dieggsy: That's obviously not what I meant. Let's just say an evil person makes a beautiful software, I'd love that software.
2021-02-01T15:02:57Z mdhughes: Mostly I work in BBEdit on the Mac, or Vim on anything else. For C I mostly use clang, BSD's almost entirely gone over to it.
2021-02-01T15:03:26Z mdhughes: But I don't have to use any C compiler usually, since everything I do is Scheme or JavaScript (or some Python).
2021-02-01T15:04:40Z aeth: I mean, I personally feel a bit dirty using GNU Emacs (essentially mandatory for Lisp/Scheme) because it essentially, in my opinion, spreads misinformation on startup by telling you to press C-h C-a (or, actually, just shows you that as the starting screen if you don't disable it first iirc).
2021-02-01T15:04:55Z dieggsy: ManDay: I wasn't trying to conflate your idea of donating to your actual support for those specific figures, sorry if it came across that way, simply to say that donating is a more direct form of support for the people themselves
2021-02-01T15:05:12Z aeth: Since I see "GNU/Linux" as, again, essentially stealing credit for software that's not theirs, which for many of the FOSS licenses is essentially one of the few ways you can violate the spirit of the license.
2021-02-01T15:05:17Z ManDay: aeth: "mandatory for scheme", come on...!
2021-02-01T15:05:24Z mdhughes: For quite a while I was using Atom, which is like if Emacs didn't suck, but now that BBEdit has better JavaScript syntax recognition, I don't need a big IDE.
2021-02-01T15:05:27Z aeth: ManDay: OK, Racket has its own editor but it's more for newbies
2021-02-01T15:05:34Z ManDay: COME ON
2021-02-01T15:05:48Z mdhughes: Scheme doesn't need a complex editor. If you can match parens, you're fine.
2021-02-01T15:05:59Z ManDay: exactly
2021-02-01T15:06:03Z aeth: The main way to edit Scheme-in-general is Emacs. Various individual Schemes may have their alternatives.
2021-02-01T15:06:22Z ManDay: aeth, I've never used emacs in my life
2021-02-01T15:06:23Z mdhughes: Note, jcowan uses ex.
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2021-02-01T15:06:29Z ManDay: (once, I think, becaue I absolutely had to)
2021-02-01T15:06:36Z ManDay: <--- kakoune
2021-02-01T15:06:51Z dieggsy: I actually use emacs but the way I edit scheme is pretty much doable in any editor, I don't do anything that fancy
2021-02-01T15:07:04Z mdhughes: I did use edwin for a while, because I was using MIT Scheme, but UGH. Glad to be rid of it. And at least edwin's scripted in Scheme, not a broken lisp.
2021-02-01T15:07:06Z dieggsy: which is nice for when I want or have to edit scheme in other editors
2021-02-01T15:08:43Z aeth: For many people on a Linux system, you only really need to encounter GNU with coreutils and gcc... There are many alternatives to bash even if bash is the default. And Apple/BSD/etc. people have pushed some GNU-alternatives that work fine on Linux, like zsh, tmux, LLVM, etc. They definitely do not deserve to claim credit for the entire distro just because their compiler is currently (not necessarily forever) required for the kernel.
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2021-02-01T15:10:18Z mdhughes: Yeah, I stopped using bash after shellshock, and you all should, too. bash is very badly written and basically a virus loader. Use zsh, tcsh, fish, whatever.
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2021-02-01T15:10:29Z dieggsy: _________: wow, i love that username
2021-02-01T15:10:46Z mdhughes: scsh, of course, is traditional.
2021-02-01T15:10:51Z aeth: I use zsh because you can make it look pretty, but oh-my-zsh (if that's even still around) isn't the way to do it, so I just hand-customize it.
2021-02-01T15:11:14Z aeth: I'm going to customize terminals/shells/etc. heavily to look nice if I'm going to look at them all day...
2021-02-01T15:11:18Z jcowan: ManDay: This analogy may be useful to you.  Suppose you have written an inerpreter for the C language in C, and named it "eval".  It supports the whole language, global variables, functions, type declarations, the works.  You pass it a bunch of C and back comes the result of main().
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2021-02-01T15:12:03Z jcowan: Now how would you go about writing `eval` so that when it is called from a C function in your program (call it `driver`), `eval` would have access to the local variables of `driver` by name?
2021-02-01T15:14:38Z dieggsy: aeth: same re:oh-my-zsh (or other plugin managers/frameworks for that matter) it's such a complex framework for what can often be done in a few lines of zsh. I tried a few and moved away from all of them in favor of manual config + loading a couple zsh plugins from package manager
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2021-02-01T15:15:47Z dieggsy: mostly more completions, history substring search, and autosuggestion iirc. colorful man is a short shell script surprisingly
2021-02-01T15:16:13Z jcowan: I use bash interactively, but /bin/sh otherwise, and if I do need bashisms in a script, it declares /bin/bash as its interpreter
2021-02-01T15:17:56Z mdhughes: The only zsh modules I load are zmv, colors, mathfunc, regex.
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2021-02-01T15:37:40Z dieggsy: I was recently going over module documentation, mathfunc is cool
2021-02-01T15:41:32Z mdhughes: I try not to write "real programs" in zsh, but if I'm doing something in zsh already it's often easier to add a little real code there.
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2021-02-01T15:51:54Z dieggsy: i stick to not trying to write "real programs" in zsh too, lol
2021-02-01T15:52:52Z dieggsy: i'm not a huge fan of the shell scripting language - it's great for interactive and simple uses, but beyond that... if not scheme then python
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2021-02-01T15:54:48Z gwatt: I feel like ksh is *really* close to being an acceptable programming language. It certainly goes well beyond what bash provides, and I think zsh too
2021-02-01T15:55:19Z ManDay: jcowan: I'm not sure what you're trying to say and I suspect you misunderstand my "problem" (which is a problem of documentation): Which environment is the environment of the invocation of (eval)? It turns out (interaction-environment) is it, but that is not documented in my opinion.
2021-02-01T15:56:16Z jcowan: Where do you expect it to be documented?
2021-02-01T15:57:10Z gwatt: ManDay: which scheme? The standard eval accepts only two arguments: the expression and the environment.
2021-02-01T15:57:48Z dieggsy: gwatt: i like the idea of ksh and played around with mksh, which is a nice simple shell, though i went back to zsh for features i think
2021-02-01T15:58:32Z mdhughes: ksh used to be my shell of choice, until Linux led me into error. But I do think zsh is a better shell than ksh, and Perl/Python/Scheme is better for programming than ksh, so it's a narrow niche where ksh would be best.
2021-02-01T15:58:34Z ManDay: gwatt: Yes? So? That's the eval I'm talking about, expression and environment. And the question is "WHICH environment" do I need to pass
2021-02-01T16:01:14Z mdhughes: As I rewrite my build scripts from zsh to Scheme so they'll run on Windows, I've ended up writing a lot of shell utils. Scheme's still bulky for expressing some shell idioms, but it's nice having the full language and C FFI if needed.
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2021-02-01T16:02:11Z gwatt: mdhughes: agree about the niche of ksh
2021-02-01T16:02:14Z jcowan: mdhughes: What Scheme are you using
2021-02-01T16:02:22Z mdhughes: Chez.
2021-02-01T16:02:42Z jcowan: I wish we had a port of SRFI 170 to Chez
2021-02-01T16:03:37Z ManDay: jcowan: In R6rs I expect it to be documented how to specify the correct environment such that invoking (eval ... env) with it amounts to writing the eval'ed code that location in source.
2021-02-01T16:03:44Z mdhughes: yeah, a lot of that is coincidentally in (import (chezscheme)), but not under consistent names. And some parts are not, so I compile C code…
2021-02-01T16:04:37Z mdhughes: CHICKEN does have more of that built in, but doesn't have POSIX threads. Augh.
2021-02-01T16:05:14Z jcowan: ManDay: You simply can't get what you want in any existing Scheme: see my analogy to C for why.
2021-02-01T16:05:32Z mdhughes: I don't thread my build script, tho it'd help on some tasks.
2021-02-01T16:08:59Z ManDay: jcowan: I'm afraid I do not understand how your analogy explains that. To answer the question from your analogy: my eval() must be able to introspect the calling program.
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2021-02-01T16:09:26Z jcowan: How would you introspect a C program to get the current values of local variables?
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2021-02-01T16:09:51Z jcowan: (short of running in gdb, which contains an interpreter)
2021-02-01T16:10:21Z ManDay: It's not possible with a C Program, obviously. It needs meta data from the compiler. But this is not C. So, to counter your argument about "can't": Why *can* I in Javascript, but not in Scheme?
2021-02-01T16:10:45Z dieggsy: mdhughes: chicken is my scheme of choice and i almost never use threading, but i always feel a bit unsettled whenever i'm reminded it doesn't suuport posix threads. i guess there's IPC options instead, have not explored
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2021-02-01T16:13:11Z jcowan: Because Scheme is, in the relevant sense, C.  It's designed for AOT compiling.
2021-02-01T16:14:30Z jcowan: There is a vocal minority that believes that Lisp-in-general lost something when compilers got into the act, but in fact there have been compilers since Lisp 1.5 in 1959.
2021-02-01T16:14:32Z mdhughes: dieggsy: It might be possible to set up a C FFI that launches a new CHICKEN runtime in its own thread, and then you could talk between those threads with IPC or pipes. It needs a lot more per-thread state than Chez.
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2021-02-01T16:16:20Z dieggsy: mdhughes: theres this egg: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/concurrent-native-callbacks
2021-02-01T16:16:32Z ManDay: jcowan: I understand. And it is indeed true that I don't need the environment in my case. The C'ish `eval` would work in my case.
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2021-02-01T16:16:55Z ManDay: Is there a way to compose a manually crafted set of bindings to pass as an environment into `eval`?
2021-02-01T16:17:26Z ManDay: I only found 3 possible, generic environments to use as the 2nd argument to `eval`, but nothing which would allow me to give it binding points
2021-02-01T16:17:32Z jcowan: Not *as* an environment, a deficiency I hope to repair.  You can of course craft a data structure and then unpack it inside eval before getting down to business.
2021-02-01T16:17:51Z ManDay: Ah ok
2021-02-01T16:18:11Z ManDay: thanks, your analogy helped indeed, after all :)
2021-02-01T16:18:12Z jcowan: You can add bindings to interaction-environment with (eval '(define x ...) (interaction-environment))
2021-02-01T16:18:25Z mdhughes: dieggsy: I think that just lets you write C threads that call one worker CHICKEN thread? Handy if you're embedding it as a scripting engine.
2021-02-01T16:18:31Z ManDay: jcowan: yep
2021-02-01T16:20:19Z dieggsy: mdhughes: that sounds like the description of the pthreads egg. there's also an mpi egg, but i haven't tried any of these. but yeah, the overhead is going to be much bigger than a scheme that supports native threads anyway
2021-02-01T16:20:52Z mdhughes: Oh, and it's mulle, who's trying to make a good standalone Objective-C environment. It's still pretty hacky, but I've had some fun using it. Someday it may free my old iOS & Mac code for wider distribution.
2021-02-01T16:25:07Z mdhughes: Relevant from fediverse: https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/lisprepl/
2021-02-01T16:33:02Z aeth: mdhughes: I might do a shell when I'm done with Airship Scheme if it's not too involved. I've already said that Lua's next, though, because Lua's very minimal.
2021-02-01T16:47:42Z mdhughes: It is a time of sleeping off the very strong beer.
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2021-02-01T17:35:16Z Zipheir: aeth: What kind of shell are you thinking of?  I've been putting together ideas for an article on possible future direction for CLIs, so it's of interest.
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2021-02-02T02:33:36Z jcowan: aeth: YOu mean implementing Lua in CL?
2021-02-02T02:33:54Z aeth: after Scheme, yes
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2021-02-02T03:49:28Z aeth: jcowan: it's relevant here, though, because it would ideally share code with Airship Scheme
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2021-02-02T04:52:37Z dieggsy: aeth: tell me about airship scheme
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2021-02-02T05:31:38Z aeth: dieggsy: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/master/README.md
2021-02-02T05:36:39Z dieggsy: aeth: damn, cool, hell yeah. i applaud this effort and will be following progress closely lol
2021-02-02T05:41:33Z aeth: well, thanks
2021-02-02T05:41:49Z aeth: It's kind of on hold for a month or so, but hopefully I'll get the motivation to finish it
2021-02-02T05:42:16Z aeth: the smallest, most easily realizable projects always drag on forever if they can't be done in a weekend
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2021-02-02T05:54:49Z dieggsy: aeth: this seems like no small easy project tbh...
2021-02-02T05:54:58Z dieggsy: but i love the idea of it
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2021-02-02T07:17:53Z duncanm: Riastradh: I just tried running `make cross-host` on my Intel Mac again, and I got this error
2021-02-02T07:18:05Z duncanm: ;Compiling file: "compiler/machine/rules3.nib" => "compiler/machine/rules3.moc"...
2021-02-02T07:18:05Z duncanm: ;illegal instruction syntax (imul q (r 1) (r 1) (r 0))
2021-02-02T07:18:27Z duncanm: I'm at the HEAD of master, 6db111c1ea5a565bc081ea74888391d2ac7fc1fe
2021-02-02T07:19:29Z ex_nihilo: I've been trying to build mit-scheme-11.1, but I keep getting a make failure with "Error code 0x3a (fasload-compiled-mismatch)."
2021-02-02T07:19:37Z ex_nihilo: I built from source, doing ./Setup.sh && ./configure && make, which failed:
2021-02-02T07:19:45Z ex_nihilo: Bad compiled-code version in FASL File: make.com
2021-02-02T07:19:52Z ex_nihilo: File has: compiled-code interface 3; architecture 14.
2021-02-02T07:19:58Z ex_nihilo: Expected: compiled-code interface 4; architecture 14.
2021-02-02T07:20:13Z ex_nihilo: Here is a slightly longer report on Pastebin: https://pastebin.com/3UQwewd5
2021-02-02T07:20:24Z ex_nihilo: I'm not sure what to do about this; any ideas?
2021-02-02T07:25:40Z ex_nihilo: My OS is Linux Debian
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2021-02-02T07:32:47Z lockywolf: What are the "lenses" that I have seen quite a few people being excited about recently?
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2021-02-02T07:53:19Z ecraven: an abstraction to access and modify parts inside a deeper structure
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2021-02-02T07:54:03Z ecraven: so if you have '(1 (2 (3 . 4) 5) 6)  you could have a "lens" that focuses on '(3 . 4), and use it to read that part of any similar structure, or even use it to create a *new* structure with something else instead of '(3 . 4) in that place
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2021-02-02T11:49:58Z ex_nihilo: wrt my earlier comments about build failures for mit-scheme-11.1, I found this: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/mit-scheme-devel/2021-02/msg00001.html
2021-02-02T11:51:31Z ex_nihilo: apparently there were changes in the compiled code abi, so you must do a cross-build to go from 10.x to 11.1
2021-02-02T11:52:14Z ex_nihilo: ./configure --enable-cross-compiling --enable-native-code=x86-64 did the trick to get past the failure with make.com
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2021-02-02T12:01:14Z ex_nihilo: but, now I have a new failure when building x11
2021-02-02T12:01:45Z ex_nihilo: echo '(generate-shim "x11" "#include \"x11-shim.h\"")'  |  ../run-build --batch-mode
2021-02-02T12:01:56Z ex_nihilo: ;Unassigned variable: current-filename
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2021-02-02T14:57:03Z Riastradh: duncanm: What version are you building from, what version are you building, and do you have the full transcript?
2021-02-02T15:01:32Z Riastradh: ex_nihilo: Do you have a build transcript?  Did you start over with a clean tree when you ran `./configure --enable-cross-compiling --enable-native-code=x86-64', or did you do that in a partially built tree and try to pick up where it left off?
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2021-02-02T15:02:55Z ManDay: Hey, I wanted to write a nested-list->string function which renders nested list a bit more comprehensibly, but I can't figure out how to generically turn the list elements into a string (like `(display)` is able to generically turn everything into a string)). I thought `->string` but that's not a thing
2021-02-02T15:02:58Z ManDay: what's the correct call?
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2021-02-02T15:05:08Z pinoaffe: ManDay: can you give me an example input and example output?
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2021-02-02T15:06:09Z ManDay: you mean for my "nested-list->string"?
2021-02-02T15:07:37Z pinoaffe: ManDay: yes
2021-02-02T15:07:51Z pinoaffe: I don't know how you plan to render nested lists
2021-02-02T15:11:30Z ManDay: like this I thought https://dpaste.com/3JYSSS9J5
2021-02-02T15:11:51Z ManDay: (I built it using (display) directly now, but it would be nicer if I could turn it into a string instead)
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2021-02-02T15:14:43Z ManDay: this is nicer: https://dpaste.com/EEG8H3MLV
2021-02-02T15:16:12Z gwatt: You can use string output ports to render arbitrary stuff into string form.
2021-02-02T15:16:39Z ManDay: yes, I'm aware I could abuse the port, but I thought there would be a direct way
2021-02-02T15:17:05Z ManDay: (to get the magic that `display` does without actually using `display`)
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2021-02-02T16:34:13Z pinoaffe: ManDay: why do you not want to use display?
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2021-02-02T16:34:59Z ManDay: that's... actually a fair question
2021-02-02T16:35:25Z ManDay: I guess I just felt having it as a ..->string is more generally useful, though indeed I don't have any use for it beyond display
2021-02-02T16:35:31Z pinoaffe: also, in guile (and maybe in some other schemes) you can use (format #f "~a" blarg) to get a string containing the "displayed" representation of blarg
2021-02-02T16:35:59Z pinoaffe: format is in (ice-9 format)
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2021-02-02T16:36:29Z ManDay: ah, that's great to know. probably the best I'll find. thanks!
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2021-02-02T16:41:35Z ex_nihilo: Riastradh: I did start with a fresh build, starting from tar -xzf
2021-02-02T16:41:57Z ex_nihilo: Riastradh: here is a build transcript: https://privatebin.net/?da1d37e4ce03ea8b#78uH5Bj9cg2jBzMVqDtHiV6DAvyowHkvGR1UjLN6Fkqy
2021-02-02T16:44:22Z Riastradh: ex_nihilo: Can you try building from 10.1.11 instead of 10.1.10?
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2021-02-02T16:52:57Z ex_nihilo: Riastradh: that's a good idea; I will try that later today
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2021-02-02T17:53:32Z ex_nihilo: Riastradh: Success! I already had the source for 10.1.11, but had never gotten around to installing it; when 11.1 was released I had forgotten all about 10.1.11. After your comment I built 10.11.1 from source and installed it, then built 11.1 from source with no problems; thanks for the tip.
2021-02-02T18:01:49Z Zipheir: Does anyone know who maintains rudybot?  Given that the bot has been gone for almost a week, I've been considering running a replacement (any suggestions?) if it's not coming back.
2021-02-02T18:04:19Z wasamasa: offby1
2021-02-02T18:05:43Z Riastradh: ex_nihilo: cool
2021-02-02T18:25:27Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Is that someone's nick, the name of a bot implementation, or wholly unrelated?
2021-02-02T18:25:36Z wasamasa: it's someone's nickname
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2021-02-02T18:28:25Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Aha, ty.
2021-02-02T18:28:35Z wasamasa: they typically show up on #emacs
2021-02-02T18:29:09Z Zipheir: The only other Scheme bot I know of is vandusen.  Maybe we could run a copy of it here.
2021-02-02T18:29:27Z Zipheir: rudybot's eval abilities have always been less than reliable.
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2021-02-02T19:18:06Z siraben: lockywolf: lenses are like getters and setters but generalized in many different ways
2021-02-02T19:19:14Z siraben: you can abstract over different (what would be called l-values in C++), perform traversals, and lenses have great compositional properties
2021-02-02T19:19:31Z siraben: different "store" locations*
2021-02-02T19:20:31Z siraben: imagine the jq tool (https://stedolan.github.io/jq/) but for any data type
2021-02-02T19:23:20Z mdhughes: What if someone here is already a bot and you don't know it?
2021-02-02T19:26:32Z Zipheir: Well, it's impossible to rule that possibility out.
2021-02-02T19:26:38Z gwatt: mdhughes: eval ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x)))
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2021-02-02T19:27:05Z mdhughes: gwatt: That doesn't look like anything to me.
2021-02-02T19:28:21Z zgrep: I'd say we should all take a Turing test, but that only check if you're Alan Turing, so it wouldn't be as useful as I would've hoped.
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2021-02-02T19:37:30Z Zipheir: Alan Turing would probably fail such a test, given that most people now think of him as Benedict Cumberbatch in "The Imitation Game".
2021-02-02T19:37:50Z Zipheir: (Which weirdly depicted Turing as borderline autistic.)
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2021-02-02T19:54:36Z mdhughes: Also weird, Alan was a good-looking dude, and Benzedrine Crumplepants is a hideous English golem.
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2021-02-02T23:37:05Z duncanm: Riastradh: i'm trying to compile on my m1 machine again, i think i missed some steps last night when I tried
2021-02-02T23:37:18Z duncanm: Riastradh: is it possible to build on ARM directly without cross-compiling?
2021-02-02T23:39:07Z Riastradh: just omit `--enable-cross-compiling'
2021-02-02T23:41:57Z duncanm: oh!
2021-02-02T23:42:41Z duncanm: Riastradh: and instead of make cross-host, I just type 'make'?
2021-02-02T23:42:47Z Riastradh: correct
2021-02-02T23:43:05Z duncanm: Ahh, but there's this issue
2021-02-02T23:43:07Z Riastradh: `make' effectively just does `make cross-host' then `make cross-target' (with or without cross-compiling)
2021-02-02T23:43:16Z duncanm: *** Error in ./Setup.sh
2021-02-02T23:43:16Z duncanm: This script needs an existing MIT/GNU Scheme installation to function,
2021-02-02T23:43:16Z duncanm: but the program `mit-scheme' does not appear to run it.
2021-02-02T23:43:33Z Riastradh: Yes, you need an existing Scheme in order to build it from source.
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2021-02-02T23:51:37Z duncanm: hmm
2021-02-02T23:52:13Z duncanm: Riastradh: i got something new, when I tried late last night, i think i forgot about copying over the cross-host to the cross-target side completely
2021-02-02T23:52:19Z duncanm: but now I did all that, and I see this
2021-02-02T23:52:31Z duncanm: In file included from floenv.c:40:
2021-02-02T23:52:31Z duncanm: In file included from /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/lib/clang/12.0.0/include/xmmintrin.h:13:
2021-02-02T23:52:31Z duncanm: /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/lib/clang/12.0.0/include/mmintrin.h:50:12: error: invalid conversion between vector type '__m64' (vector of 1 'long long' value) and integer type 'int' of
2021-02-02T23:52:31Z duncanm:       different size
2021-02-02T23:52:31Z duncanm:     return (__m64)__builtin_ia32_vec_init_v2si(__i, 0);
2021-02-02T23:52:32Z duncanm:            ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2021-02-02T23:52:51Z Riastradh: oy
2021-02-02T23:53:00Z duncanm: i'm on the latest macOS and the latest Xcode
2021-02-02T23:53:11Z Riastradh: Do you have the complete transcript?
2021-02-02T23:53:22Z duncanm: on the ARM side?
2021-02-02T23:53:30Z Riastradh: My guess is that, after copying from x86 to arm, you didn't rerun configure in src/microcode.
2021-02-02T23:53:34Z Riastradh: All that said...
2021-02-02T23:53:43Z duncanm: duncan@ateji:src (master) % (cd microcode && ./configure --enable-native-code=aarch64le)
2021-02-02T23:53:43Z Riastradh: You can run mit-scheme-x86-64 under rosetta on the m1, right?
2021-02-02T23:53:56Z duncanm: I can, but I'm interested in getting it to run natively
2021-02-02T23:54:15Z Riastradh: If so, you can probably save yourself a lot of trouble by cross-compiling on the m1 itself.
2021-02-02T23:54:28Z duncanm: yeah, it's faster to do that than to scp files around
2021-02-02T23:54:43Z Riastradh: 1. Install mit-scheme-x86-64 11.1 and put it in PATH.
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2021-02-02T23:55:12Z Riastradh: 2. Build 11.1 with `./configure --enable-cross-compiling --enable-native-code=aarch64le'.
2021-02-02T23:55:29Z duncanm: I've been following these instructions that I wrote down a few months ago, https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/fd8fa119ee2dfb4b2f15af8dc97adc84
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2021-02-02T23:57:06Z Riastradh: Sure, that's fine, but if you can run it all on the m1, you can skip a lot of that.  If you have a working mit-scheme in your PATH (even if it's the amd64 version running via rosetta), then you can just do:
2021-02-02T23:57:10Z Riastradh: cd mit-scheme/src
2021-02-02T23:57:11Z Riastradh: ./Setup.sh
2021-02-02T23:57:24Z Riastradh: ./configure --enable-cross-compiling --enable-native-code=aarch64le
2021-02-02T23:57:25Z Riastradh: make
2021-02-02T23:58:15Z Riastradh: (That's how I test i386 and svm1 from time to time, on my amd64 laptop.)
2021-02-02T23:59:28Z duncanm: I can give it a try, i haven't really used rosetta at all yet
2021-02-02T23:59:44Z duncanm: but i thought you need to use this arch command to launch the executable under Rosetta
2021-02-03T00:00:20Z duncanm: https://eclecticlight.co/2021/01/27/how-rosetta-complicates-call-chains-on-m1-macs/
2021-02-03T00:00:28Z Riastradh: If you can't simply exec mit-scheme directly, can you write a simple wrapper script?
2021-02-03T00:00:34Z Riastradh: #!/bin/sh
2021-02-03T00:00:48Z Riastradh: exec arch -x86_64 mit-scheme-x86-64 ${1+"$@"}
2021-02-03T00:01:02Z duncanm: that's one way
2021-02-03T00:01:04Z Riastradh: Put that in a file named `mit-scheme' (and chmod +x) in your PATH?
2021-02-03T00:01:11Z duncanm: yeah, this article says
2021-02-03T00:01:22Z duncanm: “In other words, when running code on Apple Silicon, macOS will keep to the same architecture through each calling chain. As some have already reported on Twitter, if you run a terminal app which is Intel-only, each shell that it launches also runs under Rosetta 2 and runs the Intel version of each tool which it calls, even though those tools may be Universal and have ARM-native code available too. When those tools
2021-02-03T00:01:22Z duncanm: haven’t already been translated by Rosetta 2, translation must occur before they can be run, causing a delay, even though they could have run their ARM-native code.”
2021-02-03T00:01:51Z Riastradh: (But is it even necessary to do that?  It looks like that should really only be needed for deliberately running non-native architectures in universal binaries that have code for both.)
2021-02-03T00:02:18Z Riastradh: That is, have you tested one way or another, and verified that simply running `mit-scheme' when it's the amd64 version doesn't work?
2021-02-03T00:03:10Z duncanm: i need to get an intel binary of MIT Scheme onto the machine first
2021-02-03T00:03:18Z duncanm: the existing installer is too old, right?
2021-02-03T00:03:35Z Riastradh: curl -O https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mit-scheme/stable.pkg/11.1/mit-scheme-11.1-x86-64.tar.gz
2021-02-03T00:03:46Z Riastradh: tar xzf mit-scheme-11.1-x86-64.tar.gz
2021-02-03T00:03:59Z Riastradh: cd mit-scheme-11.1/src
2021-02-03T00:04:04Z Riastradh: ./configure --prefix=`pwd`/root
2021-02-03T00:04:05Z Riastradh: make
2021-02-03T00:04:06Z Riastradh: make install
2021-02-03T00:04:19Z duncanm: (and do all that under rosetta, right?)
2021-02-03T00:04:30Z Riastradh: maybe need
2021-02-03T00:04:35Z Riastradh: ./configure --prefix=`pwd`/root CFLAGS=-arch\ x86_64
2021-02-03T00:04:37Z Riastradh: or something like that
2021-02-03T00:04:40Z duncanm: hmm
2021-02-03T00:04:48Z duncanm: i'll play around tonight
2021-02-03T00:05:07Z Riastradh: or just build it on your Intel Mac and copy it over
2021-02-03T00:05:27Z Riastradh: (might be quicker than figuring out how to invoke the x86 toolchain on the arm system)
2021-02-03T00:11:25Z duncanm: i'm gonna have dinner now, but i've been building on my intel mac and copying it over to the m1 mac
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2021-02-03T03:47:50Z siraben: gwatt: ERROR: infinite recursion
2021-02-03T03:52:06Z Zipheir: Of course, a sophisticated AI wouldn't break on that; it would give a response a bit like Wheatley's solution to the Liar's Paradox in Portal 2: "Um... true.  Yeah, I'm gonna say true."  (cf. GEB on layers of knowledge)
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2021-02-03T04:33:32Z Riastradh: duncanm: briefly
2021-02-03T04:33:53Z duncanm: I'm running Setup on my intel mac again and recording a typescript
2021-02-03T04:34:21Z duncanm: but when I ran it the last time, I got that clang error with the floats, do you think that's a real bug or is it just that I missed a step somehow?
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2021-02-03T04:49:52Z duncanm: Riastradh: yeah, i got the same error as last time
2021-02-03T04:50:00Z duncanm: error: invalid conversion between vector type '__m64' (vector of 1 'long long' value) and integer type 'int' of different size
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2021-02-03T06:11:51Z Riastradh: duncanm: full transcript?
2021-02-03T06:12:34Z Riastradh: and config.log?
2021-02-03T06:12:49Z duncanm: i'm trying to get my webhost back up so i can host files again ;-)
2021-02-03T06:13:08Z duncanm: Riastradh: or can you get me an account on mumble.net? ;-)
2021-02-03T06:25:29Z Riastradh: oh
2021-02-03T06:25:31Z Riastradh: duh
2021-02-03T06:25:33Z Riastradh: oy
2021-02-03T06:25:45Z Riastradh: CHRIS
2021-02-03T06:26:02Z duncanm: oh?
2021-02-03T06:26:10Z duncanm: tell me tell me
2021-02-03T06:26:19Z duncanm: cph broke something?
2021-02-03T06:26:55Z Riastradh: #    define NEED_FEEXCEPT_WORKAROUND
2021-02-03T06:26:58Z Riastradh: comment that out in floenv.h
2021-02-03T06:27:04Z Riastradh: src/microcode/floenv.h
2021-02-03T06:27:33Z duncanm: on which machine? just the ARM machine?
2021-02-03T06:27:48Z siraben: This cross-compilation talk reminds me to fix CHICKEN cross-compilation in Nixpkgs
2021-02-03T06:28:03Z Riastradh: duncanm: yes
2021-02-03T06:28:18Z Riastradh: This is not a cross-compilation issue; this is a Chris put x86-specific crud under #ifdef __APPLE__ issue.
2021-02-03T06:28:35Z Riastradh: (cross-compilation is good actually and native compilation is bad)
2021-02-03T06:29:15Z Riastradh: (cross-compilation should always be the first-class way to do things, not a neglected option)
2021-02-03T06:29:16Z duncanm: floenv.c:503:33: error: use of undeclared identifier 'FE_DENORMALOPERAND'
2021-02-03T06:29:26Z Riastradh: #      define FE_DENORMAL FE_DENORMALOPERAND
2021-02-03T06:29:28Z Riastradh: comment that ou ttoo
2021-02-03T06:30:09Z duncanm: cmpintmd.c:375:27: error: value size does not match register size specified by the constraint and modifier [-Werror,-Wasm-operand-widths]
2021-02-03T06:30:20Z duncanm: cmpintmd.c:373:10: note: use constraint modifier "w"
2021-02-03T06:30:30Z duncanm: cmpintmd.c:374:10: note: use constraint modifier "w"
2021-02-03T06:30:40Z duncanm: this machine *is* really fast, all those reviews aren't wrong about that
2021-02-03T06:30:48Z duncanm: and it doesn't get hot at all
2021-02-03T06:32:01Z Riastradh: ...OK, weird, I guess gcc and clang disagree on asm constraint syntax.
2021-02-03T06:32:43Z duncanm: yeah, it's from a while back, you wrote it
2021-02-03T06:32:46Z duncanm: 7fbfd0cbc0 (Taylor R Campbell 2019-01-21 375)
2021-02-03T06:32:55Z Riastradh: (of course, it is probably totally undocumented for clang)
2021-02-03T06:33:42Z duncanm: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16850309/clang-llvm-inline-assembly-multiple-constraints-with-useless-spills-reload
2021-02-03T06:34:58Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20210202/asm.patch
2021-02-03T06:35:01Z Riastradh: Try applying that patch?
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2021-02-03T06:37:01Z Riastradh: oh
2021-02-03T06:37:03Z Riastradh: maybe not
2021-02-03T06:37:26Z Riastradh: well, try anyway
2021-02-03T06:38:11Z duncanm: yeah, you get something else
2021-02-03T06:38:36Z Riastradh: Do you get a cmpintmd.o?
2021-02-03T06:38:56Z Riastradh: Looks like yes.
2021-02-03T06:39:06Z Riastradh: so yay, progress
2021-02-03T06:39:49Z Riastradh: ...why does `gcc' run clang
2021-02-03T06:39:56Z Riastradh: (never mind, maybe I don't want to know)
2021-02-03T06:40:34Z Riastradh: Hmm.  Do you have gas, by any chance, instead of whatever bogus nonstandard assembler as is?
2021-02-03T06:41:40Z duncanm: i can see if homebrew can install it
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2021-02-03T06:42:11Z duncanm: i dunno if i have a cmpintmd.o, i only see a microcode/cmpint.o
2021-02-03T06:42:37Z Riastradh: No microcode/cmpintmd.o?
2021-02-03T06:42:45Z Riastradh: oh
2021-02-03T06:42:53Z Riastradh: error down below
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2021-02-03T06:43:46Z Riastradh: duncanm: Missed the first part of the patch?
2021-02-03T06:43:50Z Riastradh: -aarch64_cache_line_sizes (unsigned *dsize, unsigned *isize)
2021-02-03T06:43:51Z Riastradh: +aarch64_cache_line_sizes (unsigned *dsizep, unsigned *isizep)
2021-02-03T06:44:03Z duncanm: oh yes, sorry
2021-02-03T06:48:33Z Riastradh: Or, is there an option you can pass to as to make it, uh, work?
2021-02-03T06:49:00Z Riastradh: Try searching the web for `apple assembler as' to find the man page, and, well...
2021-02-03T06:49:09Z Riastradh: `Working as an Assembler at Apple: Employee Reviews at indeed.com'
2021-02-03T06:49:17Z Riastradh: `iPhone Assembler Foxconn Sets Up Auto Arm as Apple Car Looms at msn.com'
2021-02-03T06:49:21Z Riastradh: wrong kind of assembler AND wrong kind of arm
2021-02-03T06:52:29Z Riastradh: revert that patch
2021-02-03T06:52:56Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20210202/asm_v2.patch
2021-02-03T06:53:04Z Riastradh: er
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2021-02-03T06:53:43Z Riastradh: reload
2021-02-03T06:56:14Z duncanm: i tried it and i still get the errors in cmpauxmd.s
2021-02-03T06:56:26Z Riastradh: yes, only fixes cmpintmd.c, not cmpauxmd.s
2021-02-03T06:57:18Z duncanm: what are these files for?
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2021-02-03T07:00:14Z duncanm: oh, so cmpint is not some int comparison thing
2021-02-03T07:00:22Z duncanm: it's compiler interface
2021-02-03T07:00:29Z duncanm: compiled-code interface
2021-02-03T07:00:36Z Riastradh: cmpintmd.c is kind of the machine-dependent part of a dynamic linker
2021-02-03T07:01:26Z Riastradh: Fills in the code for procedure call stubs, &c., and flushes the icache when new code is generated.
2021-02-03T07:01:47Z Riastradh: cmpauxmd.m4 is the interface between the C microcode and compiled Scheme code
2021-02-03T07:02:01Z Riastradh: Every time you call a microcode primitive, it passes through the code in cmpauxmd.
2021-02-03T07:02:51Z Riastradh: It's a small amount of hand-written assembly.
2021-02-03T07:03:11Z Riastradh: But apparently Apple's clangy assembler has a different syntax from the GNU assembler.
2021-02-03T07:03:19Z Riastradh: And I have no idea where to find documentation for Apple's clangy assembler.
2021-02-03T07:05:39Z Riastradh: If you want to try chasing it down I can see about adapting cmpauxmd.
2021-02-03T07:05:45Z Riastradh: but for now I'm heading to bed.
2021-02-03T07:05:54Z duncanm: thanks Riastradh
2021-02-03T07:06:03Z duncanm: i have some friends who might know, i'll ask around
2021-02-03T07:06:20Z Riastradh: Did cmpintmd.o build with the updated patch?
2021-02-03T07:07:01Z duncanm: -rw-r--r--  1 duncan  staff  4268 Feb  3 01:55 microcode/cmpintmd.o
2021-02-03T07:07:02Z duncanm: yeah!
2021-02-03T07:07:23Z Riastradh: OK, pushed
2021-02-03T07:09:40Z duncanm: cool
2021-02-03T07:11:01Z Riastradh *zzz*
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2021-02-03T15:44:21Z ecraven: hm.. does anyone know things about RScheme? I've just now come across that for the first time, is it abandoned?
2021-02-03T15:50:17Z Riastradh: I thought it looked kind of abandoned over a decade ago.
2021-02-03T15:51:02Z ecraven: and after 15 seconds of looking at it, it seems like it can only be built using itself..
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2021-02-03T15:58:19Z ecraven: ok, the last snapshot I can find on archive.org seems to build fine
2021-02-03T16:00:15Z even4void: htop
2021-02-03T16:00:33Z even4void: *bad terminal, sorry for the noise
2021-02-03T16:03:40Z jcowan: I used it in my Implementation Contrasts
2021-02-03T16:04:32Z jcowan: which means I built it successfully on both 32-bit and 64-bit Linux
2021-02-03T16:05:56Z ecraven: just came across it because someone on
2021-02-03T16:06:05Z ecraven: #lisp said that it was like prefix-dylan's successor
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2021-02-03T16:08:35Z remby: is it always possible in scheme to print data structures becuase they are made from s-expressions?
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2021-02-03T16:11:48Z mangol: remby: yes, but only in a cheeky sense: any unreadable objects in the data structure will be printed as #<...placeholder text here...>
2021-02-03T16:12:21Z remby: mangol: I guess those would be like binary objects?
2021-02-03T16:12:26Z mangol: the point of the #<...> syntax is that it cannot be read back in; it causes a read error
2021-02-03T16:12:41Z remby: ah nice
2021-02-03T16:12:48Z mangol: remby: perhaps counterintuitively, binary data is quite easy to read and print. just use hex or base64 for example.
2021-02-03T16:13:15Z mangol: the trouble comes from environment-dependent objects like ports (files, sockets, processes)
2021-02-03T16:13:49Z jcowan: Procedures as well.
2021-02-03T16:14:02Z remby: why with procedures?
2021-02-03T16:14:29Z remby: possibly because of continuations?
2021-02-03T16:14:34Z mangol: yes. procedures could in theory be printed as source code or bytecode, but that's rarely done. femtolisp prints bytecode
2021-02-03T16:14:42Z jcowan: Just so.
2021-02-03T16:15:04Z remby: thanks guys :)
2021-02-03T16:15:38Z mangol: #<...> doesn't actually seem to be standard syntax in RnRS. what does RnRS say about printing unreadable objects?
2021-02-03T16:17:56Z mangol: ecraven: Riastradh: jcowan: if any of you can build RScheme, please give me the build instructions so we can add it to https://containers.scheme.org/
2021-02-03T16:18:15Z mangol: i tried building some version of it in 2019 or 2020 and it was so difficult that i gave up
2021-02-03T16:18:43Z mangol: that was possibly a randomly hacked github fork; if there's a working release, would be ideal
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2021-02-03T16:25:22Z mangol: also, known-good releases of RScheme should be added to https://files.scheme.org/
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2021-02-03T16:32:03Z gwatt: mangol: not every object has an external representation.
2021-02-03T16:37:03Z mangol: gwatt: see above discussion
2021-02-03T16:40:41Z cky: It'd be hilarious to see a Scheme implementation that prints unprintable objects as #<oh no you don't>
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2021-02-03T16:42:23Z ecraven: mangol: I'll try to add it to the benchmarks, if I get it running
2021-02-03T16:42:36Z ecraven: so I might package it for arch's AUR, to get that up
2021-02-03T16:42:36Z mangol: should be added in the same implementation where all the error messages are single words, and compound conditions are lists of words: '(too few args)
2021-02-03T16:42:37Z ecraven: and
2021-02-03T16:42:39Z Riastradh: (make-ohno 'foo)
2021-02-03T16:42:39Z Riastradh: ;Value: #<oh no you don't>
2021-02-03T16:42:48Z ecraven: I should really base the benchmarks on your containers ;)
2021-02-03T16:42:52Z cky: ^_^
2021-02-03T16:42:59Z Riastradh: (define-record-type <ohno> (make-ohno nope) ohno? (nope ohno-nope))
2021-02-03T16:43:00Z Riastradh: (define-print-method ohno? (lambda (ohno port) ohno (write-string "#<oh no you don't>" port)))
2021-02-03T16:43:29Z mangol: Riastradh: one does not simply print foo
2021-02-03T16:43:54Z gwatt: mangol: I was poorly answering the question "what does RnRS say about printing unreadable objects?". Rnrs makes no statements that I can find on printing objects without an external representation
2021-02-03T16:46:06Z mangol: gwatt: fair enough, and sounds like the RnRS thing to do :)
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2021-02-03T16:47:34Z mangol: ecraven: great! you seem to have rights to https://github.com/scheme-containers as well
2021-02-03T16:48:15Z mangol: can you add an rscheme repo with a build script there if you get it working? i can turn it into a Dockerfile and post it to Docker Hub
2021-02-03T16:49:31Z mangol: re: errors, topical vintage Yegge: "Microsoft to Introduce Mutually Recursive Error Messages Software giant Microsoft announced today the launch of their new REDRUM platform, an elegant system that allows Windows system error messages to shuffle blame around indefinitely by using continuation-passing."
2021-02-03T16:49:41Z ecraven: mangol: I'll see what
2021-02-03T16:49:46Z ecraven: I can do, it will take a few days at least
2021-02-03T16:50:01Z ecraven: but seems to be straightforward, just need to test it a bit, whether it actually works
2021-02-03T16:50:33Z mangol: sounds good
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2021-02-03T16:53:44Z mangol: ecraven: basing r7rs-benchmarks on scheme-containers sounds great, but Docker may cause some slowdown
2021-02-03T16:54:17Z mangol: best would be to put the build instructions in executable s-expression forms in https://github.com/schemedoc/implementation-metadata
2021-02-03T16:54:30Z mangol: that form could be translated to a Dockerfile or a shell script
2021-02-03T16:59:28Z Zipheir: my-unprintable-object ;=> #<"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.">
2021-02-03T16:59:39Z mangol: we have a winner
2021-02-03T17:00:40Z mangol: clearly someone needs to write a REPL ricing SRFI
2021-02-03T17:00:56Z mangol: the demand is mounting
2021-02-03T17:02:16Z ecraven: haha, seems *I* already packaged rscheme for AUR years ago
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2021-02-03T17:04:04Z mangol: :D yeah: https://repology.org/project/rscheme/versions
2021-02-03T17:05:15Z ecraven: would be good to get documentation to generate as well, jade doesn't like the sgml, it seems...
2021-02-03T17:06:34Z ecraven: and it's even part of the benchmarks already... wow, my memory really is bad
2021-02-03T17:06:57Z mangol: or your productivity is really high
2021-02-03T17:07:04Z Zipheir: Hah, I have no idea how you keep track of all those Schemes as it is.
2021-02-03T17:07:22Z ecraven: not high enough, I've lost access to the usual benchmarking machine, I'll need to do a new run sometime soon
2021-02-03T17:07:42Z ecraven: but that was baremetal, I'd like to keep it that way, not run inside virtualization
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2021-02-03T17:11:45Z ecraven: interesting, Donovan Kolbly seems to be at Atlassian now
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2021-02-03T18:09:51Z ecraven: does bigloo actually implement complex numbers, but hide them behind some switch, or does it just not implement them at all?
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2021-02-03T18:13:15Z gwatt: ecraven: Apparently no.
2021-02-03T18:13:22Z gwatt: > Bigloo has only three kinds of numbers: fixnum, long fixnum and flonum. Operations on complexes and rationals are not implemented
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2021-02-03T18:18:17Z mangol: wow i didn't know it doesn't have rationals either. since bigloo's main goal is C/Java interop i guess that makes sense
2021-02-03T18:18:40Z mangol: i wish it had the R7RS library system but they say it would be hard to add
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2021-02-03T18:19:04Z ecraven: I should work more on r7rs-coverage :-/
2021-02-03T18:19:32Z mangol: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-coverage/ -- looks great!
2021-02-03T18:19:52Z ecraven: but it's severly deficient, it doesn't work as well as I want it to
2021-02-03T18:19:56Z mangol: can we host some of your stuff under scheme.org?
2021-02-03T18:19:58Z ecraven: also, it should be expanded for r7rs-large ;)
2021-02-03T18:20:19Z ecraven: of course, I've just been wanting to clean everything up (for years) ;D
2021-02-03T18:20:56Z ecraven: for example, r7rs-benchmark should really catch stdout/stderr during compile- and runtime, and show both, so you can actually *see* what's gone wrong
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2021-02-03T18:21:31Z ecraven: I've been meaning to write a simple "run-as-r7rs" program, but - alas - it's been years since I started, and I haven't gotten anywhere really useful yet
2021-02-03T18:22:01Z gwatt: ecraven: while you're at it, can you publish your r6rs->r7rs compat layer used for r6rs schemes in the performance benchmarks?
2021-02-03T18:22:06Z ecraven: I'd also love to get more information into the benchmarks, to explain *why* some systems are slower / faster, and get people to see the tradeoffs made
2021-02-03T18:22:26Z ecraven: gwatt: I don't have a general one, I just have a separate prelude for each scheme, which is part of the benchmark repo
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2021-02-03T18:22:52Z ecraven: but someone (maybe more than one person?) did write r7rs-for-r6rs, I believe
2021-02-03T18:23:08Z mangol: gwatt: in addition to ecraven's preludes, https://github.com/okuoku/yuni may be close to what you want
2021-02-03T18:23:39Z ecraven: my preludes really are rather hackish, I don't know these systems very well, I just try to find something that works
2021-02-03T18:23:44Z ecraven: so in a sense, not ideal for benchmarking :-/
2021-02-03T18:23:55Z mangol: or https://gitlab.com/akkuscm/akku-r7rs or will clinger's and taylan's code in https://github.com/pre-srfi/r6rs-r7rs-compat
2021-02-03T18:25:02Z mangol: those projects are the compat layers i know of
2021-02-03T18:25:07Z gwatt: mangol: neat, thanks
2021-02-03T18:25:38Z gwatt: ecraven: in the bench script you reference a directory `/home/nex/scheme/chez` as a library search path
2021-02-03T18:25:39Z mangol: gwatt: also see explanation of the main from john and will, https://github.com/pre-srfi/r6rs-r7rs-compat/issues/4
2021-02-03T18:25:47Z ecraven: ah, sorry, that code is on github, a second
2021-02-03T18:25:49Z mangol: *main points
2021-02-03T18:26:06Z ecraven: gwatt: https://github.com/ecraven/chez-scheme-libraries
2021-02-03T18:26:15Z gwatt: ah, ok
2021-02-03T18:26:18Z ecraven: I should really put more of my code online, but it's all very proof-of-concept
2021-02-03T18:27:04Z mangol: we now have an RScheme container: docker run -it schemers/rscheme
2021-02-03T18:27:18Z mangol: https://github.com/scheme-containers/rscheme
2021-02-03T18:27:37Z gwatt: ecraven: no worries. I still need to figure out my threading stuff
2021-02-03T18:27:52Z mangol: ecraven: based on the same tarball you used to build the RScheme AUR package. that tarball has disappeared from the web
2021-02-03T18:28:02Z ecraven: I've put it on github, ecraven/rscheme
2021-02-03T18:28:06Z ecraven: taken from archive.org
2021-02-03T18:28:19Z mangol: but i was able to find a copy at web.archive.org and uploaded it here: https://files.scheme.org/rs-0.7.3.4-b7.tar.gz
2021-02-03T18:28:23Z ecraven: great!
2021-02-03T18:28:46Z mangol: nice that multiple people are archiving files :)
2021-02-03T18:29:14Z mangol: in general, if anyone has any esoteric Scheme files, please send them for inclusion at https://files.scheme.org/
2021-02-03T18:29:18Z mangol: so we don't lose them
2021-02-03T18:30:05Z mangol: that collection is tracked in git so every files is hashed and changes are logged in the git history
2021-02-03T18:30:22Z ecraven: does anyone have a simple, portable implementation of `exact-integer-sqrt'?
2021-02-03T18:31:39Z Riastradh: duncanm: FYI, I pushed some potential fixes for macOS/aarch64.  Still need documentation for Apple's assembler to figure out the rest.
2021-02-03T18:31:52Z Riastradh: ecraven: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/primitive-arithmetic.scm?id=d102b20a4634882ee3e1c2be300f77b2ca507655#n680 (just s/int://g)
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2021-02-03T18:31:54Z duncanm: Riastradh: thanks!
2021-02-03T18:32:58Z Riastradh: duncanm: So if you can find documentation for the assembler, that might help!
2021-02-03T18:32:59Z mangol: is newton's method the default thing to use for integer square roots?
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2021-02-03T18:35:11Z mangol: ecraven: Riastradh: jcowan: just found out Donovan Kolbly has more RScheme development under his github profile: https://github.com/dkolbly/rscheme
2021-02-03T18:35:16Z mangol: ...including a docker container :D
2021-02-03T18:35:26Z jcowan: Awesomesauce.
2021-02-03T18:35:33Z mangol: but it's from 2014
2021-02-03T18:36:07Z duncanm: Riastradh: yeah, i'll ask around
2021-02-03T18:36:15Z jcowan: What of it?  In Scheme, as in the Foundation trilogy, we speak of necessary centuries (or at least decades).
2021-02-03T18:36:26Z mangol: the probable etymology of saucer is so awesome
2021-02-03T18:37:03Z mangol: the place you put sauce so it doesn't land in your lap
2021-02-03T18:37:08Z ecraven: Riastradh: great, thank you!
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2021-02-03T18:39:14Z mangol: ecraven: more on run scripts: since we have the docker containers, it would be nice to have an eval command in each of them that would read code from stdin and write to stdout/stderr
2021-02-03T18:39:45Z ecraven: I'll have to see how well your containers work with podman, I'm not touching actual docker :P
2021-02-03T18:39:54Z ecraven: but most things work fine (or even better than docker) with podman
2021-02-03T18:39:58Z mangol: cat pictures | docker run schemers/whatever r7rs-eval
2021-02-03T18:40:15Z mangol: what's podman? i presume it's at most tangentially related to pod people in plural
2021-02-03T18:40:25Z ecraven: hm.. shouldn't that work fine by just putting a /usr/bin/run-as-r7rs script in each container?
2021-02-03T18:40:34Z mangol: it should
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2021-02-03T18:40:54Z mangol: it'd be nice if we could guarantee that error messages and stack traces go to stderr, not stdout
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2021-02-03T18:40:58Z amirouche roll eyes about podman
2021-02-03T18:41:01Z mangol: so stdout can be reserved for (write ...) output
2021-02-03T18:41:12Z ecraven: amirouche: roll all you want, I'm not running a docker daemon locally ;)
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2021-02-03T18:41:47Z amirouche: the fact that is daemonless is a good thing
2021-02-03T18:41:58Z ecraven: it's also rootless, which is just as nice ;)
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2021-02-03T18:42:13Z mangol: cosmopolitan docker
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2021-02-03T18:43:59Z duncanm: Riastradh: is it really just one issue, which is the comment character?
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2021-02-03T18:44:02Z ecraven: Riastradh: integer-length is ceiling of log2?
2021-02-03T18:46:41Z amirouche: rootless is good
2021-02-03T18:46:53Z amirouche: I rolleyes at redhat with systemd xp
2021-02-03T18:47:05Z amirouche: but seems like this time, from the outside, it looks good.
2021-02-03T18:47:08Z ecraven: hehe, that's fine, I think I've mostly given up on them, given that
2021-02-03T18:47:14Z ecraven: I only used them for CentOS
2021-02-03T18:47:25Z ecraven: I'll just have to look into AppArmor instead of SELinux
2021-02-03T18:48:40Z mangol: amirouche: docker can be quite unreliable, especially on non-linux platforms under heavy load
2021-02-03T18:48:58Z mangol: i think it also runs some daemon(s) in the background, maybe as root
2021-02-03T18:50:24Z amirouche: idk, all my code runs in the cloud :p
2021-02-03T18:50:41Z amirouche: serless cloud even
2021-02-03T18:50:46Z mangol: we have a dedicated docker server thanks to a benefactor on these chans; i can make accounts for more schemers on demand
2021-02-03T18:51:25Z amirouche: what is the os?
2021-02-03T18:51:30Z mangol: debian
2021-02-03T18:53:15Z duncanm: Riastradh: have you tried /* */ comments?
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2021-02-03T18:53:42Z duncanm: also it looks like @ might be a valid comment character
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2021-02-03T18:54:01Z mangol: Zipheir: re: earlier discussion on unspeakable objects in Scheme, apparently there is a Wittgenstein esoteric language: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wittgen
2021-02-03T18:54:18Z mangol: two instructions, turing complete
2021-02-03T18:55:19Z gwatt: pssh, the x86 mov instruction is turing complete all by itself
2021-02-03T18:56:16Z gwatt: https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator
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2021-02-03T18:56:25Z mangol: +1 to that
2021-02-03T18:56:34Z mangol: "subtract and branch is negative" is turing-complete by itself IIRC
2021-02-03T18:57:01Z mangol: anyway. "It is the goal of Wittgen development to be able to provide responses, if not solutions, to some of the problems he poses.
2021-02-03T18:57:46Z mangol: that's such a subtle and winning turn of phrase
2021-02-03T18:58:37Z duncanm: Riastradh: hmm, right now it's complaining about two things, after I pulled your new changes
2021-02-03T18:58:51Z duncanm: this '#' character
2021-02-03T18:58:55Z duncanm: cmpauxmd.s:129:18: error: expected compatible register, symbol or integer in range [0, 4095]
2021-02-03T18:58:55Z duncanm:         add     REGS, REGS, #Registers$PAGEOFF          // address of register block
2021-02-03T18:58:55Z duncanm:                             ^
2021-02-03T18:59:11Z duncanm: the .size
2021-02-03T18:59:16Z duncanm: cmpauxmd.s:182:2: error: unknown directive
2021-02-03T18:59:16Z duncanm:         .size _interface_to_C,.-_interface_to_C
2021-02-03T18:59:19Z Zipheir: I wonder if it supports '#lang W1' and '#lang W2' options.  The latter just produces weird koans about the meaning of symbols.
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2021-02-03T19:01:24Z mangol: corresponding to Tractatus and Philosophical Investigations respectively?
2021-02-03T19:02:04Z mangol: you could send them a pull request, but what would it really mean?
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2021-02-03T19:06:42Z Zipheir: Exactly.
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2021-02-03T19:09:14Z Zipheir: "I realize, however, that I have an overpoweringly strong bias against [the Philosophical Investigations], for, if it is true, philosophy is, at best, a slight help to lexicographers, and at worst, an idle tea-table amusement." (Russell)
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2021-02-03T19:09:37Z ecraven: has anyone tried which is the most portable r7rs Scheme (that runs on most systems)? I'd guess something like chibi?
2021-02-03T19:10:51Z mangol: chibi is a good bet. gambit and chicken are very portable and have usable but not complete R7RS support
2021-02-03T19:10:56Z duncanm: ecraven: haha, kawa! ;-)
2021-02-03T19:11:07Z ecraven: duncanm: I thought maybe one of the java ones ;)
2021-02-03T19:11:09Z duncanm: you just need someone else to port the JVM for you
2021-02-03T19:11:16Z Zipheir: My only portability experiment with chibi was compiling it on an Android (aarch64) phone under Termux, where it runs just fine.
2021-02-03T19:13:20Z duncanm: Riastradh: this might be relevant? https://github.com/below/HelloSilicon
2021-02-03T19:13:55Z duncanm: Clang requires the source register to be 32-Bit. This makes sense, because with these extensions, the upper 32 Bit of a 64-Bit register will never be touched:
2021-02-03T19:13:55Z duncanm: ADD X2, X1, W0, SXTB
2021-02-03T19:13:55Z duncanm: The GNU Assembler seems to ignore this and allows you to specify a 64-Bit source register.
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2021-02-03T19:27:50Z gwatt: that's fair of gas
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2021-02-03T19:45:47Z gwatt: also, aarch64 documents state that you can use sxtb with 64 bit registers
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2021-02-03T20:04:46Z Zipheir: mangol: Congrats on the new SRFI.  Looks interesting.
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2021-02-03T20:37:27Z mangol: Zipheir: thanks. not invented by me; i just transcribed it. in fact, if someone knows where it's from, the inventor should be credited.
2021-02-03T20:37:45Z Riastradh: duncanm: FYI, you'll need start over from a clean tree with the change I just made (or delete microcode/configure and rerun Setup.sh and configure).
2021-02-03T20:38:05Z mangol: Riastradh: do you recognize whether MIT Scheme was the first to have this shorthand: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-219/srfi-219.html
2021-02-03T20:38:33Z Riastradh: ecraven: Yes, (integer-length x) is ceil(log_2 x), or the smallest n such that (arithmetic-shift x (- n)) is zero.
2021-02-03T20:42:16Z Riastradh: duncanm: @ does not start a comment in standard aarch64 assembly syntax, and gas does not support it.  (arm32, yes, but not aarch64)
2021-02-03T20:42:42Z Riastradh: mangol: No idea, but it's been in MIT Scheme for at least three decades.
2021-02-03T20:44:08Z mangol: the 30-year-old implementations are MIT, Chez, Gambit. of those, MIT is the only one that has it.
2021-02-03T20:44:39Z Riastradh: duncanm: Looks like gas supports /* */ without saying so in the documentation.  Can you confirm that Apple's assembler accepts it?
2021-02-03T20:45:53Z Riastradh: Ah, it's in the MI part of the gas manual, not the MD part which describes @, #, and //, OK.
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2021-02-03T21:43:02Z duncanm: Riastradh: did you push more code past the ref-manual commit?
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2021-02-03T22:17:12Z duncanm: Riastradh: ah, now we see fewer errors, https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/702825f554acaeeec0c9ad111e492589
2021-02-03T22:17:22Z duncanm: cmpauxmd.s:129:14: error: expect relocation specifier in operand after ':'
2021-02-03T22:17:39Z duncanm: 12 errors
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2021-02-03T22:32:50Z mangol: it's incredible how much expressive power is packed into the unassuming syntax-rules. there's always some surprise technique you didn't know about
2021-02-03T22:33:25Z mangol: someone should write a syntax-rules advent calendar, "30 days of syntax-rules" or something like that. every day reveals a new trick.
2021-02-03T22:35:47Z Riastradh: duncanm: derp, reversed the sense of the conditional definition of ADRL
2021-02-03T22:35:54Z Riastradh: swap the branches of the ifdef
2021-02-03T22:37:47Z Riastradh: (also, maybe the comment syntax was a red herring; reviewing the previous logs I don't see why I came to that conclusion, probably misread the errors about .size)
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2021-02-03T22:38:49Z Riastradh: duncanm: or, pull
2021-02-03T22:39:05Z duncanm: and I need to build from scratch on intel again, right?
2021-02-03T22:39:07Z Riastradh: (can just run make again, no need to clean whole tree and start over with this change)
2021-02-03T22:39:13Z duncanm: nice
2021-02-03T22:39:56Z Riastradh: (only reason for cleaning tree earlier was that it involved a change to configure.ac which needs Setup.sh to regen configure to regen Makefile to update rule to expand cmpauxmd.m4->cmpauxmd.s with new `-P __APPLE__,1' argument to m4)
2021-02-03T22:40:03Z duncanm: cmpauxmd.s:130:18: error: expected compatible register, symbol or integer in range [0, 4095]
2021-02-03T22:40:03Z duncanm:         add     REGS, REGS, #Registers$PAGEOFF          // address of register block
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2021-02-03T22:40:46Z duncanm: this looks like the earlier error again
2021-02-03T22:40:47Z Riastradh: See if removing the # in the definition of ADRL works?
2021-02-03T22:40:55Z Riastradh:         add     $1, $1, #$2@PAGEOFF')',
2021-02-03T22:40:57Z Riastradh: on that line
2021-02-03T22:41:14Z Riastradh: ...wait, `$'?
2021-02-03T22:41:19Z duncanm: https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/3f7ac9ee53d4c10058362c116f423631
2021-02-03T22:42:07Z Riastradh: Well, try removing the `#' and see if that makes a difference...but also, not sure why the message has `$' where the source has `@'.
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2021-02-03T22:44:50Z duncanm: hmm
2021-02-03T22:44:51Z duncanm: like this?
2021-02-03T22:44:55Z duncanm: -       add     $1, $1, #$2@PAGEOFF')',
2021-02-03T22:44:55Z duncanm: +       add     $1, $1, $2@PAGEOFF)',
2021-02-03T22:44:57Z Riastradh: yes
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2021-02-03T22:46:02Z duncanm:  /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/bin/m4:stdin:522: ERROR: end of file in argument list
2021-02-03T22:46:15Z duncanm: I don't know how quoting works in m4
2021-02-03T22:46:48Z Riastradh: sha256sum aarch64.m4
2021-02-03T22:46:55Z duncanm: https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/3f7ac9ee53d4c10058362c116f423631#file-gistfile2-txt
2021-02-03T22:47:06Z Riastradh: oh, you removed a '
2021-02-03T22:47:15Z Riastradh: just remove the #
2021-02-03T22:47:31Z Riastradh: -       add     $1, $1, #$2@PAGEOFF')',
2021-02-03T22:47:31Z Riastradh: +       add     $1, $1, $2@PAGEOFF')',
2021-02-03T22:47:46Z duncanm: then I'm back to the old error
2021-02-03T22:47:53Z duncanm: cmpauxmd.s:130:18: error: expected compatible register, symbol or integer in range [0, 4095]
2021-02-03T22:47:53Z duncanm:         add     REGS, REGS, Registers$PAGEOFF           // address of register block
2021-02-03T22:47:59Z Riastradh: paste cmpauxmd.s?
2021-02-03T22:48:15Z duncanm: the makefile deleted it
2021-02-03T22:48:20Z Riastradh: bah
2021-02-03T22:48:38Z Riastradh: make cmpauxmd.s
2021-02-03T22:48:40Z Riastradh: paste
2021-02-03T22:49:47Z duncanm: https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/3f7ac9ee53d4c10058362c116f423631#file-cmpauxmd-s
2021-02-03T22:50:05Z duncanm: somehow, the @ turned into $
2021-02-03T22:50:15Z Riastradh: whisky tango foxtrot
2021-02-03T22:50:21Z Riastradh: @ is getting translated to $
2021-02-03T22:50:29Z duncanm: is m4 doing something there?
2021-02-03T22:51:00Z Riastradh: err
2021-02-03T22:51:10Z Riastradh: makegen/m4.sh
2021-02-03T22:51:12Z Riastradh: !?!??
2021-02-03T22:53:01Z duncanm:   run_m4 < "${TMP_FILE}" | sed -e 's/@/$/g' -e 's/^^L$//'
2021-02-03T22:53:03Z Riastradh: pull
2021-02-03T22:53:07Z Riastradh: ...in a moment
2021-02-03T22:53:21Z Riastradh: ok, pull
2021-02-03T22:54:22Z Riastradh: #### MAJOR NOTE: $ signifies immediate values to AS on the Vax.
2021-02-03T22:54:22Z Riastradh: #### However, M4 also uses $ to signify macro constants,
2021-02-03T22:54:22Z Riastradh: #### thus we use @ here to signify immediate values and a sed script
2021-02-03T22:54:22Z Riastradh: #### is run on the output of M4 to change them to $.
2021-02-03T22:54:23Z Riastradh: heh
2021-02-03T22:55:28Z Riastradh: (and delete cmpauxmd.s so it will get rebuilt)
2021-02-03T22:55:33Z duncanm: yeah
2021-02-03T22:55:36Z duncanm: now we get something new: https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/3f7ac9ee53d4c10058362c116f423631#file-gistfile3-txt
2021-02-03T22:55:48Z duncanm: Undefined symbols for architecture arm64:
2021-02-03T22:56:41Z duncanm: where's that comment from?
2021-02-03T22:57:30Z Riastradh: pull
2021-02-03T22:58:06Z duncanm:         add     REGS, REGS, #SYMBOL(Registers)@PAGEOFF          // address of register block
2021-02-03T22:58:13Z duncanm: m4 is playing tricks with $ and # again
2021-02-03T22:58:23Z Riastradh: ?
2021-02-03T22:59:24Z duncanm: my tree has no outstanding changes, https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/3f7ac9ee53d4c10058362c116f423631#file-gistfile2-txt
2021-02-03T22:59:27Z Riastradh: pfeh
2021-02-03T22:59:53Z duncanm: oh oh, you did mean to say #SYMBOL(....)
2021-02-03T23:01:14Z Riastradh: pull
2021-02-03T23:05:23Z Riastradh: pull once more
2021-02-03T23:07:30Z duncanm: huh
2021-02-03T23:07:32Z duncanm: unable to mmap executable heap -- native code will probably fail/bin/sh: line 1: 84943 Illegal instruction: 4  ../run-build --batch-mode --fasl make.bin
2021-02-03T23:07:55Z Riastradh: cool
2021-02-03T23:08:14Z ecraven: ok, s7 packaged for arch linux, I'll play around with that some ;)
2021-02-03T23:08:25Z Riastradh: Time to find out how to work around W^X on macOS...or redesign MIT Scheme's compiled code ABI again.
2021-02-03T23:11:07Z Riastradh: hmm
2021-02-03T23:11:39Z duncanm: By enforcing W^X, Apple will harden Mac security at the memory level. App developers, however, won’t be left out in the cold — if they still need those optimization programs for their apps, they can use a new macOS API that provides a way to switch between write and execute permissions quickly and safely.
2021-02-03T23:13:12Z ecraven: is it normal that `chez-scheme --version' prints to stderr, not stdout??
2021-02-03T23:14:03Z duncanm: However, many Just In Time (JIT) compilers rely on memory being writable and executable simultaneously. To account for this, a new API (pthread_jit_write_protect) will allow pages to quickly switch between being writable and being executable. This works per-thread, so two different threads can see different permissions for the same memory page. This will enable multi-threaded JIT compilers to be both fast and secure.
2021-02-03T23:14:22Z duncanm: Riastradh: does that help? ^
2021-02-03T23:14:52Z ecraven: wait, what? you say *either* W *or* X, then you allow two threads to do different things at the same time? that seems... insecure :P
2021-02-03T23:15:10Z Riastradh: Going to require a bit of work.
2021-02-03T23:15:32Z duncanm: i've heard of this before, but don't know it in detail
2021-02-03T23:15:51Z duncanm: from cursory googling, it looks like OpenBSD enforces this also, from quite a while back?
2021-02-03T23:15:53Z Riastradh: Actually maybe this won't require any substantial redesign of the compiled code ABI.
2021-02-03T23:16:11Z Riastradh: (because I already did the important parts of that redesign a couple years ago)
2021-02-03T23:16:17Z Riastradh: But it will require a little work.
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2021-02-03T23:24:03Z duncanm: Riastradh: well, if you've some changes for me to test, let me know
2021-02-03T23:24:10Z Riastradh: ok
2021-02-03T23:24:44Z Riastradh: will take a little while
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2021-02-04T03:37:25Z dieggsy: there's no r5rs/r7rs way to define a symbol as syntax, right? (as in, my-syntax as opposed to (my-syntax))
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2021-02-04T03:40:18Z Zipheir: Nope.
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2021-02-04T03:47:19Z dieggsy: solid
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2021-02-04T03:48:59Z Zipheir: You can't do it with syntax-case or IR macros, either.  I think you'd need a reader macro.
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2021-02-04T03:53:28Z dieggsy: Zipheir: yeah, i don't need to do it as such. I'm porting a racket library and exploring my options as I go. In general i've fallen into a groove, but this is a weirder, less schemey part of the library
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2021-02-04T03:58:35Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Interesting that you can do it in Racket.
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2021-02-04T04:00:09Z dieggsy: Zipheir: apparently chez, too, FWIW . something something identifier-syntax
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2021-02-04T04:09:55Z duncanm: Riastradh: there's this MAP_JIT thing for Apple, https://developer.apple.com/documentation/bundleresources/entitlements/com_apple_security_cs_allow-jit
2021-02-04T04:10:41Z duncanm: there's an issue for the JDK https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8253816
2021-02-04T04:11:59Z duncanm: https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/pull/2200
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2021-02-04T07:54:59Z mangol: Zipheir: dieggsy: the R6RS standard version of syntax-case lets us define identifier syntax
2021-02-04T07:55:08Z mangol: (define-syntax foo (lambda (x) (syntax-case x () (foo 123))))
2021-02-04T07:55:25Z mangol: if you do that, `foo` by itself without parentheses expands to 123
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2021-02-04T07:56:07Z mangol: however, Kawa's syntax-case implementation has a quirk in that that doesn't work. Kawa doesn't claim to conform to R6RS
2021-02-04T07:58:15Z mangol: sorry, (define-syntax foo (lambda (x) (syntax-case x (foo) (foo 123)))
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2021-02-04T07:59:21Z mangol: if you omit the (foo) literal then the (foo 123) pattern matches any expression, including foo, (foo), and (foo 1 2 3)!
2021-02-04T08:02:45Z mangol: it might be worth standardizing Chez's identifier-syntax (https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/syntax.html). i thought we have a SRFI about it already, but can't find it
2021-02-04T08:04:23Z mangol: chez also rolls generalized set! into the identifier-syntax mechanism
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2021-02-04T08:19:28Z ecraven: jcowan: sorry I forgot again, you have a list of all Schemes that claim to be interested in supporting r7rs-small somewhere, right?
2021-02-04T08:20:24Z ecraven: mangol: chez has generalized set!?
2021-02-04T08:21:32Z mangol: ecraven: it does; search for identifier-syntax in https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/syntax.html
2021-02-04T08:23:41Z mangol: however, i'm not sure whether chez supports (set! (something in parentheses) value) or only (set! identifier value)
2021-02-04T08:24:08Z mangol: Per's generalized set SRFI (https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-17/srfi-17.html) does tha latter, which is customary Common Lisp style
2021-02-04T08:24:15Z ecraven: I still don't believe in identifier-syntax, it somehow feels strange if a simple identifier reference is *not* actually a reference but can be anything
2021-02-04T08:24:36Z ecraven: you mean the former?
2021-02-04T08:25:09Z mangol: yes the former :) should really get some coffee
2021-02-04T08:25:09Z ecraven: I've implemented that a few times (non-portably), and quite like the idea.. so (set! (car (cdr x)) 3), I find nice
2021-02-04T08:25:29Z ecraven: (set! car-of-x 3) which magically expands, I don't like that ;)
2021-02-04T08:25:54Z mangol: yes, (set! (foo-ref foo key) val) it's a very natural combinarion of lisp's existing features
2021-02-04T08:26:26Z ecraven: I don't use set! much, so maybe that's why I don't feel the pain
2021-02-04T08:26:42Z ecraven: with records, it would be nice though, but with records, I'd want generic methods for accessors anyway :-/
2021-02-04T08:27:03Z mangol: i can relate to being wary of identifier syntax, but recall that the social custom around defining a macro is that whoever writes the macro takes care to write it so it works in a non-disruptive and seamless way
2021-02-04T08:27:48Z ecraven: I can see the similarity, but somehow (to me) it feels more ok to make *application* mean multiple things than to make *reference* mean multiple things
2021-02-04T08:28:11Z ecraven: what's a good use case for identifier syntax?
2021-02-04T08:28:22Z mangol: your worry is a recursive version of the standard worry of people new to lisp/scheme that ordinary macros are a confusing version or procedure calls
2021-02-04T08:28:27Z ecraven: defining x++ to mean (set! x (+ x 1)) is useless, as it doesn't generalise
2021-02-04T08:28:42Z ecraven: mangol: I'm not sure that's true, but it might be ;)
2021-02-04T08:29:20Z mangol: i had the same worry when learning common lisp as you have now, and once i started using identifier syntax in that language, it soon passed
2021-02-04T08:29:34Z ecraven: what do you use it for?
2021-02-04T08:29:52Z mangol: it can be very convenient in complicated code where you have a subexpression you're using all the time. then it simplifies the notation
2021-02-04T08:30:04Z mangol: so when you read the code, the focus is on the essentials
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2021-02-04T08:30:23Z ecraven: I can see it being used for example for parameters, so I don't have to write `(param)' to get the value, but plain `param' suffices.
2021-02-04T08:30:33Z ecraven: so it's a bit like special getters/setters support in other languages
2021-02-04T08:30:34Z mangol: it's mostly useful in a local context (inside one procedure, say). less useful globally
2021-02-04T08:31:53Z mangol: your x++ example is actually a good one, if you imagine a numerical algorithm (e.g. cryptographic hash or some linear algebra thing) that does it all over the place
2021-02-04T08:32:21Z ecraven: I can see it being very useful in a local context..
2021-02-04T08:32:30Z ecraven: globally, I think I just haven't seen a useful use case
2021-02-04T08:32:55Z mangol: the param example might also be good from a code compatibility standpoint. the point is that it frees you to choose whether you want to define something as an identifier or a procedure call according to the situation
2021-02-04T08:33:37Z mangol: it's good for code evolution without breaking API. if something has been historically defined as a variable and you go "wait, it needs to be a parameter after all"
2021-02-04T08:34:00Z mangol: but people are already using it as a constant variable
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2021-02-04T08:35:39Z ecraven: at least you don't get the problems you get with passing around procedure values, as you can't use quoted identifiers without `eval' anyway
2021-02-04T08:36:46Z mangol: true. unless the identifier syntax expands to a procedure :D
2021-02-04T08:37:37Z ecraven: no, I mean you can't pass around `set!' (as it is syntax), but for identifiers, as soon as you quote them they are "useless" anyway, so it doesn't matter what they would expand to..
2021-02-04T08:39:58Z mangol: so you mean to say that it doesn't matter that we "lose" the ability to pass it around
2021-02-04T08:40:18Z ecraven: to me, it seems to be much less of a problem than it is with "normal" syntax
2021-02-04T08:40:37Z ecraven: for example, I'd love to use (apply or my-list)
2021-02-04T08:40:43Z mangol: good point. i'm inclined to agree
2021-02-04T08:41:33Z mangol: i wonder how often it confuses newbie--intermediate scheme programmers that (and ...) and (or ...) are basically if-statements
2021-02-04T08:42:14Z mangol: and that tail calls are pertinent in the same way as with `if`/`cond` branches
2021-02-04T08:42:36Z mangol: wow, just learned that R6RS has "variable tranformers" in the standard: https://standards.scheme.org/official/r6rs-lib.pdf page 51
2021-02-04T08:43:33Z mangol: i frequently feel we are doing the R6RS folks a disservice by not studying the details of that standard more carefully
2021-02-04T08:44:19Z ecraven: well, r7rs-large seems to go in a similar direction that r6rs went, so maybe some day they can be united...
2021-02-04T08:44:41Z ecraven: personally, I prefer the r7rs-small / -large thing to the way r6rs does things
2021-02-04T08:44:52Z ecraven: but I'm not a (serious) implementor anyway
2021-02-04T08:45:10Z mangol: indeed. i increasingly feel r6rs and r7rs should be combined into one standard that is heavily modularized into small libraries
2021-02-04T08:45:49Z mangol: the technical feat would be useful in itself, but more importantly, it has big social implications that they are separate standards
2021-02-04T08:46:16Z ecraven: indeed, and r7rs-large (or r6rs) are actually large enough to write useful *portable* programs
2021-02-04T08:46:21Z mangol: as a signifier to scheme outsiders; and within the scheme community, politics aside, it has a major effect on information flow
2021-02-04T08:46:28Z mangol: yes, they are
2021-02-04T08:47:21Z mangol: for example, if R-combined-RS had variable transformers, they would be much more widely known than if only one of the stanards has them
2021-02-04T08:47:48Z mangol: there would be one obvious place to point to and say "here's everything that Scheme can do by default"
2021-02-04T08:48:13Z mangol: of course small implementations would have only subsets of those capabilities, but that's to be expected
2021-02-04T08:49:16Z mangol: but there is a persistent pattern that information doesn't flow between R6RS and R7RS users as much as it should
2021-02-04T08:49:26Z mangol: not caused by any ill will from either side. it's just Conway's Law
2021-02-04T08:49:59Z mangol: IMHO we need a social engineering hack to fix that situation
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2021-02-04T08:52:25Z mangol: the social challenge is that R7RS people value having a small standard, and a separate large standard.
2021-02-04T08:52:45Z mangol: whereas R6RS people are like "we value a large standard, but we already have a perfectly good one"
2021-02-04T08:53:18Z mangol: i wonder if peace could be brokered on the grounds of "how about a modular standard that has all the stuff both of you already have, but opt-in"
2021-02-04T08:54:02Z mangol: we could define well-known subsets of the full module set as recommendations or "profiles" as some industrial standards have. or they could evolve organically
2021-02-04T08:55:01Z ecraven: I think at some point the problem is, who's going to do all that work? jcowan and the others are amazing with r7rs-large, but as there's probably no money to be made with this, people have other more pressing needs than a unified standard
2021-02-04T08:55:25Z mangol: the other social challenge is the desire to move past R6RS. a uniting standard cannot be based on the foundation of moving past it. many good schemers love it.
2021-02-04T08:56:00Z mangol: so everything in R6RS has to be kept. but it can be factored into small optional libraries so people who feel there's too much in R6RS can drop parts of it.
2021-02-04T08:56:19Z ecraven: well, there are some parts that are just incompatible between r6rs and r7rs, so you *have* to change some
2021-02-04T08:56:50Z mangol: not many incompatibilities if your criterion is that useful programs are portable
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2021-02-04T08:57:32Z mangol: indeed a combined standard would be a huge amount of work. but it has to be done at some point to heal scheme community.
2021-02-04T08:57:41Z mangol: 10 years from now? 25 years?
2021-02-04T08:57:45Z mangol: *15 years?
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2021-02-04T08:58:21Z ecraven: well, I'm no expert, but historically, the
2021-02-04T08:58:30Z ecraven: "community" has always been a lot of smaller groups
2021-02-04T08:58:45Z ecraven: it's not like other languages (almost all with a single implementation or standard)
2021-02-04T08:58:56Z ecraven: is there even one other language like Scheme in this respect?
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2021-02-04T09:00:15Z mangol: C and C++ have different standards in use at the same time. however, in their case the new standards are mostly supersets of the old ones
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2021-02-04T09:01:09Z mangol: you may be right that the scheme "split" is unique. it's probably not, but if some other language has it, probably quite obscure
2021-02-04T09:01:43Z mangol: anyway, the tragedy is that R6RS and R7RS code is actually surprisingly compatible. with some care you can already write portable code
2021-02-04T09:02:12Z mangol: as for the strictness of error handling and the semantics, that can be optionalized too.
2021-02-04T09:02:40Z mangol: R6RS says "you must be strict" to the point a strictly standards-conforming REPL is difficult or impossible.
2021-02-04T09:02:42Z ecraven: well, I only have a simple veneer over chez and all the benchmarks run fine ;)
2021-02-04T09:03:04Z mangol: R7RS goes to the other extreme and says errors can cause demons to fly out of your nose
2021-02-04T09:03:21Z mangol: once again, there's no middle ground. way to R6RS one extreme, R7RS way to the other extreme
2021-02-04T09:03:37Z ecraven: yea, I lament the fact that REPL-based development in general is getting very hard on all implementations :-/ CL has a level of introspection and mutability that no Scheme I know of has (though MIT/GNU Scheme comes closer than the others I've tried)
2021-02-04T09:03:38Z mangol: lol @ word order
2021-02-04T09:03:43Z mangol: *my word order
2021-02-04T09:04:59Z mangol: getting very hard, or has always been hard?
2021-02-04T09:05:14Z ecraven: probably the latter
2021-02-04T09:06:00Z mangol: yes, scheme seems to be like ML in that respect - always had a respect, but we're expected to compile real programs in batch
2021-02-04T09:06:20Z mangol: *had a REPL. coffee time for real
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2021-02-04T09:09:47Z mangol: anyway, a combined standard should be shipped first as a portable implementation that runs on every serious scheme implementation we already have
2021-02-04T09:09:55Z mangol: possibly with patches to the implementations, ideally not
2021-02-04T09:10:20Z mangol: it would be a mistake to go "hey here's a new 400-page document", please implement it
2021-02-04T09:10:25Z ecraven: I don't disagree, but that's a *lot* of work ;)
2021-02-04T09:10:37Z mangol: we have a lot of time if we don't set ourselves a deadline
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2021-02-04T09:10:54Z ecraven: one of my ulterior motives with the benchmarks and the coverage tests is to get PRs going for the different implementations ;)
2021-02-04T09:11:06Z mangol: laudable
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2021-02-04T09:15:14Z mangol: i think the split can be productively viewed as technical debt. as long as we have it, it puts a tax on morale, information flow, comprehensibility and interoperability
2021-02-04T09:15:41Z mangol: as with all technical debt, there's rarely a strict deadline to fix it, but the longer it goes on, the more debt is accrued
2021-02-04T09:16:44Z mangol: like all technical debt, fixing it is gnarly and largely thankless work that everyone tries to put off as long as possible
2021-02-04T09:17:00Z mangol: and takes time away from seemingly more urgent activities
2021-02-04T09:19:22Z ecraven: hm.. noeither mosh nor picrin build for me :-/
2021-02-04T09:21:05Z mangol: https://github.com/scheme-containers/mosh
2021-02-04T09:21:06Z mangol: https://github.com/scheme-containers/picrin
2021-02-04T09:21:30Z mangol: can you manage to build them by replicating the build steps in those dockerfiles?
2021-02-04T09:22:15Z ecraven: picrin might be related to newer gcc versions, that debian you are using has a much older gcc than my arch linux
2021-02-04T09:22:19Z ecraven: I'll play around, thanks!
2021-02-04T09:24:01Z ecraven: I get src/load_piclib.c:15:20: error: invalid initializer, probably due to pic_value port = ... not being a constant expression
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2021-02-04T09:25:01Z mangol: hope it works out!
2021-02-04T09:25:38Z mangol: if you need GCC portability patches to picrin, omasanori has done all the latest patches to https://github.com/picrin-scheme/picrin and he has been on GH last month
2021-02-04T09:26:03Z mangol: so it might be possible to contact him and get PRs merged
2021-02-04T09:26:17Z ecraven: I see no commits to master since june 2017?
2021-02-04T09:27:07Z ecraven: aaand husk fails too
2021-02-04T09:27:53Z mangol: correct, latest in 2017. https://github.com/picrin-scheme/picrin/commits/master
2021-02-04T09:29:14Z mangol: about husk, please email justin (who is now actively working on cyclone scheme, but husk is his previous project)
2021-02-04T09:29:28Z ecraven: yea, he's here sometimes
2021-02-04T09:30:01Z mangol: neat!
2021-02-04T09:31:54Z mangol: anyway, it's now 2021. R-combined-R-us in 2025?
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2021-02-04T09:32:34Z ecraven: hehe, we'll see
2021-02-04T09:33:01Z mangol: i'll see if i can find enough energy to try and work out the possibility of getting it done. it'll take a lot even if spread out over a span of years.
2021-02-04T09:33:58Z mangol: i'm willing to risk everyone hating me to get it done though. i like risk and i don't really have better way to spend my already questionable reputation around here
2021-02-04T09:34:23Z mangol: but scheme.org has to be solid first. one risky community-wide project at a time
2021-02-04T09:35:03Z ecraven: personally, I'd wait a bit for r7rs-large to be "done", then look into what the simplest way to "merge" the two ;)
2021-02-04T09:35:09Z ecraven: CL did that decades ago, I think ;)
2021-02-04T09:35:52Z mangol: there's no getting around the fact that both R6RS and R7RS-large are contentious entities. we have to come to terms with that.
2021-02-04T09:36:15Z mangol: difference being that R6RS is a contentious entity set in stone in 2007.
2021-02-04T09:36:30Z mangol: R7RS-large doesn't have a clear deadline to be set in stone.
2021-02-04T09:37:10Z mangol: if we have to do R7RS-large, _and_ R-combines-RS, _and_ both have to be set in stone for us to move on from them
2021-02-04T09:37:14Z mangol: that's gonna take a while
2021-02-04T09:38:12Z mangol: the lack of a solid plan is what worries me
2021-02-04T09:38:51Z mangol: it's fine if it takes 10 years, but can we be reasonably sure that once those 10 years are up, we've reached a standard that unites the community and serves everyone in it
2021-02-04T09:39:53Z mangol: i've been searching for the right markers and i don't see them. R6RS was the R6RS team's vsion. R7RS-large is WG2's vision (where group cohesion varies a lot).
2021-02-04T09:40:11Z mangol: the main point of a standard is agreement. that's what it says on the tin.
2021-02-04T09:40:33Z mangol: both R6RS and R7RS-large are about pursuing the vision of a subgroup of the Scheme community
2021-02-04T09:41:20Z mangol: i would care if people shoot the messenger but i'm not wired to be that patient
2021-02-04T09:43:04Z mangol: IMHO a Scheme standard should start from taking everything that's standardized (i.e. typeset on the nice TeX template) and that people are still actively using
2021-02-04T09:43:27Z mangol: and leaving nothing out. and then figuring out how to partition all that stuff into modules that implementors can take or leave
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2021-02-04T09:43:53Z mangol: once that's done, then we can think about whether to add more features
2021-02-04T09:45:45Z mangol: it says a lot that Kawa is not on track to be an R7RS-large implementation, for example. Kawa already does R7RS-small, and as a big happy JVM Scheme, it would be the ideal implementation to host a large language
2021-02-04T09:46:16Z mangol: and Kawa is not R6RS-compliant either. implementors want to provide a large language, but can't agree on which one
2021-02-04T09:47:07Z mangol: as a model, Common Lisp is an admirable feat of political compromise. the lisp community does not easily agree on things.
2021-02-04T09:47:34Z mangol: most of the ugly parts of Common Lisp can be put down to the fact that it isn't modularized. it has a complete package system,
2021-02-04T09:47:48Z mangol: but they don't actually use it on the standard itself
2021-02-04T09:47:51Z mangol: for whatever reason
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2021-02-04T09:48:12Z mangol: so new implementors can't opt out of stuff that turned out to be questionable in hindsight
2021-02-04T09:48:44Z mangol: the fact that CL has generic functions and a hierarchical type system built in adds to the situation that it's difficult to take parts out
2021-02-04T09:49:28Z mangol: scheme is in a much better position to modularize, and i think we should do that even more aggressively than R6RS did. R7RS-large is at about the right level of modularity, but we could go even more fine-grained
2021-02-04T09:51:20Z mdhughes: On modularity, my CHICKEN programs have 20-50 imports each. That's too damn much modularity.
2021-02-04T09:51:56Z mdhughes: Chez has 2-4, (chezscheme), a couple SRFIs, my library.
2021-02-04T09:52:15Z ecraven: well, at some point, it would be nice if you had "levels", to aggregate the modules, otherwise you lose all portability
2021-02-04T09:52:34Z mdhughes: I don't need to import srfi-69 if hashtables are already in.
2021-02-04T09:52:55Z ecraven: you do, if you want that code to run on anything non-chez :P
2021-02-04T09:53:43Z mdhughes: I don't. Any R6RS will have those, they'll maybe change (chezscheme) to (rnrs) or their impl's main library.
2021-02-04T09:55:33Z mangol: ecraven: exactly. the fine-grained modules can be grouped into collections (called "profiles" in some formal standards)
2021-02-04T09:56:02Z ecraven: mdhughes: ah, yea, for r6rs that is entirely true
2021-02-04T09:56:02Z mangol: either the standards document can specify the profiles. or good profiles can be found experimentally by the community afterwards.
2021-02-04T09:56:05Z mdhughes: "technically" R6 might be strict, but in practice every R6 is batteries-included enough to get work done.
2021-02-04T09:56:52Z mdhughes: Porting to Gerbil was trivial, except for the things that weren't standard, FFI and [] syntax.
2021-02-04T09:57:05Z mangol: in fact R6RS already has (import (rnrs)) which imports a whole slew of fine-grained modules
2021-02-04T09:57:54Z mangol: we should do more of that
2021-02-04T09:58:24Z mangol: some people will say it's lame that Scheme has "profiles" instead "one profile that's good for everything" but the latter is not the scheme way
2021-02-04T09:58:59Z mangol: we can have an all-singing-all-dancing profile if we want to
2021-02-04T09:59:12Z mangol: just (import (scheme))
2021-02-04T10:00:07Z mangol: but that requires that (scheme) is well defined. and that in turn requires that we ship a community-uniting document out the door in a finite amount of time
2021-02-04T10:00:27Z mangol: and adding new untested features to RnRS is at odds with that goal
2021-02-04T10:00:58Z mangol: all of the libraries (new data structures, etc.) going into R7RS-large are fine. but i'm not convinced that the RnRS procee is the right vehicle for them.
2021-02-04T10:01:27Z mangol: they are untested code. they do have unit tests, but people haven't written applications using them. not using them individually, and especially not using them in combination.
2021-02-04T10:01:49Z mangol: R7RS-large is on track to receive the same criticism that R6RS received upon release from some of Scheme's sharpest minds.
2021-02-04T10:02:00Z mangol: namely that it's a big pile of unproven stuff.
2021-02-04T10:02:25Z mdhughes: Yeah, most SRFIs I read have no use case, and I wouldn't put them in my programs.
2021-02-04T10:02:36Z ecraven: it's a hard problem.. ideally, the standard would just define enough to make writing portable code possible, then you can just write the actual libraries in portable Scheme.
2021-02-04T10:02:38Z mangol: whereas something like hash-tables (SRFIs, and R6RS hashtables) is a data structure that has been used to write thousands of real programs. so obviously it belongs in a RnRS report.
2021-02-04T10:02:47Z mdhughes: Nothing should be accepted unless it's not just tested, but in use in a real program.
2021-02-04T10:03:39Z mdhughes: Which also requires that more people use Scheme to code real things, and not to code new Schemes.
2021-02-04T10:04:26Z mangol: mdhughes: i think you echo the silent sentiment of lots of schemers who are currently not actively involved in the RnRS process
2021-02-04T10:04:45Z ecraven: the problem is, if you cannot write portable libraries, how will you ever *get* that code?
2021-02-04T10:04:47Z mdhughes: LISP is a truly awful language, the community's not great, but they actually use it for stuff.
2021-02-04T10:05:19Z mangol: ecraven: in practice, the portability of scheme code is already excellent. people just don't know about it.
2021-02-04T10:05:21Z mdhughes: (I mean here Common LISP, SBCL and such)
2021-02-04T10:05:31Z ecraven: mangol: I disagree. for example, networking
2021-02-04T10:05:46Z mangol: if we ignore RnRS for a bit, and focus only on implementaitons, it's possible to write code that runs on a dozen implementations
2021-02-04T10:06:01Z mangol: sockets take a lot (cond-expand ...) as do many other things
2021-02-04T10:06:04Z ecraven: mangol: certain kinds of code. try graphics, or networking
2021-02-04T10:06:25Z ecraven: well, if I cond-expand for each implementation, that doesn't meet my definition of "portable code" :P
2021-02-04T10:06:31Z mdhughes: Networking, threading, and GUIs are totally impl-specific, but at least that makes some sense, since the underlying tech might be POSIX, Java, JavaScript, etc.
2021-02-04T10:06:47Z mangol: ecraven: ok, we are using different definitions of portable :)
2021-02-04T10:06:55Z ecraven: I'm not sure I agree, there are some simple networking concepts that should be portable..
2021-02-04T10:07:20Z mdhughes: Now build them in a compiles-to-JavaScript Scheme.
2021-02-04T10:07:24Z ecraven: mangol: "portable" to me means that at least most of the code runs unmodified on different Schemes. maybe I should use another word
2021-02-04T10:07:41Z mangol: we're arguing semantics :)
2021-02-04T10:07:44Z ecraven: mdhughes: javascript can do networking.
2021-02-04T10:08:02Z mangol: from an RnRS point of view, i'm not convinced that RnRS is the right vehicle for things like graphics, sockets, and many of the data structures that go into R7RS-large
2021-02-04T10:08:08Z mdhughes: JS can make AJAX calls, and WebSockets which are a special case of HTTP/keep-alive.
2021-02-04T10:08:09Z ecraven: I'm talking about opening a tcp / udp socket and getting a binary port, that should be possible in most backends
2021-02-04T10:08:46Z ecraven: the problem is, if you cannot write portable code for those things, it's hard to get actually useful programs done (outside of "pure computation")
2021-02-04T10:09:19Z ecraven: re compiling-to-js, that's fine, those implementations will then just not support the "normal" socket interface. but there should still *be* one
2021-02-04T10:09:39Z ecraven: I'm just talking about the API, the implementation can be different for each Scheme implementation, but the *functions* that you call should be the same
2021-02-04T10:10:06Z ecraven: *any* other language I know has some default way of interfacing with sockets...
2021-02-04T10:10:14Z mdhughes: There's no equivalent of open/select in JS.
2021-02-04T10:10:24Z ecraven: FFI would be the other thing I'd like to advocate, but that's a mess in general ;)
2021-02-04T10:10:47Z mdhughes: You can do that on JVM, mostly, but it also behaves differently because it's tied into the threading model.
2021-02-04T10:11:06Z ecraven: mdhughes: that's fine, just don't implement that part.
2021-02-04T10:11:44Z mdhughes: Then it's not a "spec", or at least not a very useful one. You end up cutting until you're down to minikanren.
2021-02-04T10:12:48Z ecraven: mdhughes: I don't agree, you can run networking code on any system that supports whatever definition of networking we decide on.
2021-02-04T10:13:09Z ecraven: right now, you can't use networking code on more than one implementation
2021-02-04T10:13:22Z ecraven: I've tried, r7rs-swank needs it, *every* Scheme I've tried has different primitives
2021-02-04T10:13:28Z mdhughes: ecraven: That's just not correct. You cannot port your TCP code to a JS-backed impl.
2021-02-04T10:13:48Z mangol: ecraven: you raise a good point. i have an unpopular off-the-wall plan for that as well.
2021-02-04T10:13:51Z ecraven: mdhughes: which is fine, you can't port your dom-manipulation code from a js-backed implementation to a native one
2021-02-04T10:14:08Z mdhughes: Right. Those are not portable things, and they don't belong in the spec.
2021-02-04T10:14:27Z ecraven: I'm trying to say: if we cannot have a totally generic solution, let's at least try to get one that works for many systems.
2021-02-04T10:14:42Z mangol: for practical stuff like socket, graphics, data structures, we should have a community-wide library collection that is much faster-moving, much more relaxed, than RnRS.
2021-02-04T10:14:52Z mdhughes: They might make good SRFIs, if they have at least one impl that supports it and it's tested and used on something.
2021-02-04T10:15:05Z mangol: every year, we release a stable version of that community API so people can write programs that don't break.
2021-02-04T10:15:21Z mangol: meanwhile, the bleeding edge version of the API can keep changing
2021-02-04T10:15:38Z mangol: because there's no way in hell any living person can design all those APIs and not make design mistakes
2021-02-04T10:15:46Z mdhughes: I'd love to have a graphics SRFI that isn't just SICP's little language, with a picture of a racist embedded.
2021-02-04T10:15:51Z ecraven: if you have portable sockets, there are way more options.. you can talk to some graphics toolkits over a socket (in totally portable Scheme), thanks to bytevectors
2021-02-04T10:16:11Z mangol: and yearly editions solve another pain point of SRFI and especially RnRS process: the need to be comprehensive.
2021-02-04T10:16:13Z ecraven: but as long as you don't have sockets, things are really hard :-/
2021-02-04T10:16:22Z ecraven: mdhughes: who is that?
2021-02-04T10:16:27Z ecraven: don't think I've read that srfi
2021-02-04T10:16:39Z mangol: no living person can design perfect comprehensive libraries up front. it doesn't make sense to structure a design process around that assumption
2021-02-04T10:17:32Z mangol: if the API can grow and change every year, we can start with a humble networking or graphics API with only a few procedures that are immediately useful
2021-02-04T10:17:41Z mangol: than adapt from there according to the requirements of actual programs
2021-02-04T10:18:13Z mangol: thinking from first principles, the RnRS process is about putting limited person-hours to turn out a document. that's the hard limit.
2021-02-04T10:18:38Z mangol: it follows that a good RnRS is whatever that set of people is humanly capable of turning out in that space of time without making a mess.
2021-02-04T10:18:53Z mangol: and while retaining community-wide agreement, as it says on the tin ("standard").
2021-02-04T10:19:12Z mangol: everything else is optional, and quite likely best kept outside the remit of RnRS
2021-02-04T10:19:26Z mangol: because the above problem by itself is hard enough
2021-02-04T10:20:37Z mangol: the day-to-day work of making a standard should be about reconciling detail differences in how implementations approach things that already exist and are in use
2021-02-04T10:21:00Z ecraven: maybe
2021-02-04T10:21:02Z mangol: that's the kind of work that can move fast and keep good momentum, while representing the whole community
2021-02-04T10:21:15Z ecraven: I should give a simple networking SRFI a try, I already have the code from r7rs-swank :P
2021-02-04T10:21:38Z mangol: the kind of work where someone has a grand unproven idea about adding something to the language is of a qualitatively different character. not fit for a community-wide standardization process.
2021-02-04T10:22:41Z mdhughes: ecraven: Rogers, MIT's founder. https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-203/srfi-203.html
2021-02-04T10:22:49Z mdhughes: https://www.blackhistory.mit.edu/story/william-b-rogers
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2021-02-04T10:23:07Z ecraven: thanks, never heard of him, I'll read up on that
2021-02-04T10:23:12Z mangol: unless the whole community has the same idea simultaneously (i.e. "it was in the air at the time", "part of the zeitgeist"). and even then it's much better to try out in individual implementations first.
2021-02-04T10:24:26Z mangol: R6RS had new unproven ideas, and R7RS-large now has new unproven ideas. the effect is that they are not community standards.
2021-02-04T10:24:52Z mangol: R5RS And R7RS-small don't have much in the way of unproven ideas, and hence the community has enthusiastically adopted them.
2021-02-04T10:25:27Z mangol: there's no reason an R-combined-RS can't be enthusiastically adopted, even if large, if it's (A) modular, and (B) all the modules are about stuff that already exists in prior standards, or in lots of implementations
2021-02-04T10:25:40Z mdhughes: Python's PEP system works well, they pretty much always have proven, working code, community use of it in experimental patches, and then it's integrated.
2021-02-04T10:26:39Z mangol: yes, PEPs are great. but some experienced Python programmers are of the opinion is that the standard library is where good community libraries go to die
2021-02-04T10:26:43Z mdhughes: But there's just one impl there, more or less. Cython, IronPython, Jython lag long behind CPython.
2021-02-04T10:26:48Z mangol: as in, are no longer evolving to meet new needs
2021-02-04T10:27:28Z mangol: and the Common Lisp community continually talks about modernizing ANSI CL without actually doing it.
2021-02-04T10:28:09Z mangol: by adding networking and stuff. it won't work. i think a lot of people fundamentally misunderstand what a language standard is a good vehicle for.
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2021-02-04T10:28:35Z mangol: a standard is a very heavyweight social process. that kinda thing doesn't scale to the complexity of a complete language ecosystem
2021-02-04T10:28:50Z mangol: with integrations to external systems like networks, graphics, subprocesses, the works
2021-02-04T10:29:04Z mangol: XML, JSON, YAML, CSS, SQL, ...
2021-02-04T10:29:34Z mangol: it's like pushing a boulder uphill
2021-02-04T10:30:06Z mangol: should be left to an ongoing, much more relaxed process that is much more forgiving of mistakes and oversights
2021-02-04T10:30:11Z ecraven: mangol: sorry to repeat myself, but all of those (maybe apart from SQL, if by that you mean actual database interfaces) can be written portably right now in r7rs-small (even if tedious, as text manipulation isn't that well supported out of the box), but you need *networking* to actually *use* them ;)
2021-02-04T10:30:55Z mangol: once again, we're arguing the semantics of "portable"
2021-02-04T10:31:22Z mangol: to me, a codebase that can use different 5 socket interfaces using cond-expand is portable
2021-02-04T10:31:23Z ecraven: hm.. I'll need to look into srfi-106, not sure who supports that
2021-02-04T10:31:39Z mangol: it would be better if there was one socket interface, but it's not a hard requirement for useful code
2021-02-04T10:31:43Z ecraven: mangol: what's a word for being able to run the exact same code on multiple implementations?
2021-02-04T10:32:00Z mangol: standard? :D :D
2021-02-04T10:32:16Z ecraven: hehe, so I want a *standard* socket / networking interface
2021-02-04T10:32:18Z mangol: standards-based
2021-02-04T10:32:42Z mangol: yes. and we all want it. but the thing is, i don't think we can get it. not in the sense of RnRS standard.
2021-02-04T10:33:05Z mangol: i want a pony but i don't want to drive 2 hours to the stables and pay to feed it, etc.
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2021-02-04T10:33:27Z mangol: i'm still free to want a pony and still free to feel disappointed that i can't afford the money+time investment
2021-02-04T10:33:40Z mangol: maybe i can rent time to ride someone else's pony
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2021-02-04T10:34:52Z mangol: i think we'd do well to be more realistic about the carrying capacity of the RnRS design process, and what kinds of things can get community buy-in
2021-02-04T10:35:38Z mangol: i hope the reason we're anxious to place such a heavy load on RnRS Scheme is that we despair for lack of other ways to standardize things community-wide
2021-02-04T10:36:27Z mangol: "I really, really want a standard way to use feature X. If I get it into RnRS, it's a done deal. If I don't get it into RnRS, I have no recourse. That makes me sad. I'll never have portable X."
2021-02-04T10:36:56Z mangol: if that's all there is to is, i have a new kind of design process to sell yo.
2021-02-04T10:38:10Z mangol: that complements RnRS and builds on RnRS but does not replace it.
2021-02-04T10:38:42Z mangol: if we adopt it, the RnRS process can get back to doing what it does best. establishing agreement close to the core language.
2021-02-04T10:39:26Z mangol: then RnRS can move at a faster, more predictable pace, we can set realistic goals about getting the next RnRS done in a particular time frame.
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2021-02-04T10:39:45Z mangol: and sell that to implementors. all scheme implementors, not just a select few.
2021-02-04T10:41:45Z mangol: and all the fancy unproven features that used to go into R6RS, and now go into R7RS-large, could go into the lighter-weight design process.
2021-02-04T10:42:28Z mangol: R7RS-large is already well modularized into libraries, so no work done on R7RS-large would go to waste. the new design process could pick up right where it let off.
2021-02-04T10:42:31Z mangol: *left off
2021-02-04T10:43:19Z mangol: once again, thinking from first principles, what does it mean for the Immutable deques
2021-02-04T10:43:35Z mangol: library to be standardized in R7RS-large? what are the practical implications?
2021-02-04T10:44:11Z mangol: it means you can use immutable deques in any of a set of N scheme implementations in the year 20XX and onward.
2021-02-04T10:44:23Z mangol: using the same interface.
2021-02-04T10:44:54Z mangol: once we phrase it like that, it's clear that there are other ways that we can let people use immutable deques in a wide variety of Scheme implementations
2021-02-04T10:45:25Z ecraven: I think it's important to keep track of the fact that - given a well-defined language core - the libraries themselves are totally portable, so there's no *need* to add them to the standard, as you can just run them on any implementation anyway.
2021-02-04T10:45:38Z ecraven: the "problem" are libraries that can *not* be written on top of the standard
2021-02-04T10:45:56Z mangol: ways which don't involve waiting until 20XX (to be determined), and don't block the main job of RnRS, establishing greater agreement on the core language and shipping that agreement on a TeX template
2021-02-04T10:46:50Z mangol: ecraven: exactly. anything that's easy to implement efficiently in portable code shouldn't go into RnRS
2021-02-04T10:47:04Z mangol: the exception being things that were already in an earlier RnRS, which should be kept
2021-02-04T10:47:10Z ecraven: it could go in, just to define the API, but the need is much less pressing, imho
2021-02-04T10:47:23Z mangol: because taking out existing things just alienates people
2021-02-04T10:48:18Z ecraven: there's no reason why we can't have a red-black-tree API in RnRS, but I'd say it is not as important as some others, as those can be implemented on top of the existing functions fine (I think ;)
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2021-02-04T10:51:48Z mangol: it's important to work from the assumption that once we put something into RnRS, we can never take it out again
2021-02-04T10:52:23Z mangol: R7RS took things out of R6RS and it led to a 15-year technical and social split
2021-02-04T10:53:00Z mangol: it's a liability to scheme that R7RS-large is growing. the more it grows, the bigger the liability.
2021-02-04T10:53:09Z mangol: somebody has to say it, so i do.
2021-02-04T10:53:31Z ecraven: well, R8RS doesn't have to be an extension of R7RS-large ;)
2021-02-04T10:53:48Z ecraven: maybe we get  R8RS profile 'large'
2021-02-04T10:53:53Z mangol: indeed, it doesn't have to be. but there's a clear reason why: because R7RS-large is not yet finalized.
2021-02-04T10:53:53Z ecraven: among many other profiles
2021-02-04T10:54:13Z mangol: if R7RS-large was already finalized, then R8RS would have the moral imperative to keep everything in R7RS-large.
2021-02-04T10:54:15Z mdhughes: R8RS will be two R4RS in a trenchcoat. R9RS will be three R3RS. Eventually we'll just have MacLISP again.
2021-02-04T10:54:21Z mangol: lol
2021-02-04T10:56:33Z mangol: in any case, eventually, whether that's 1 year from now or 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years from now, some people in the scheme community have to get up and decide to be good stewards of the community as a whole
2021-02-04T10:56:55Z mangol: and there's only one way to do that: keep everything in R5RS, and R6RS, and R7RS-small, without throwing anything out.
2021-02-04T10:57:03Z ecraven: I do not agree ;)
2021-02-04T10:57:19Z mangol: and the only way to keep all that stuff without going nuts is to heavily factor it into optional modules
2021-02-04T10:57:29Z ecraven: ah, now that I agree with ;)
2021-02-04T10:57:35Z mangol: :D
2021-02-04T10:57:36Z mangol: see
2021-02-04T10:58:04Z mangol: optional modules are The Scheme Way. that's the writing on the wall
2021-02-04T10:58:11Z mangol: scheme has always excelled at subsetting
2021-02-04T10:58:57Z mangol: we're in a much luckier place than Common Lisp when it comes to revising and revitalizing the standard
2021-02-04T10:59:25Z mangol: from a technical standpoint, we are in an ideal place to unite the community
2021-02-04T11:00:11Z mangol: scheme's fantastic library and macro expander, which happily R6RS and R7RS seem to agree on all the practically salient points, is an extreme help here
2021-02-04T11:01:00Z ecraven: that I also agree on, I don't understand how CL could ever happen (and be successful too ;)
2021-02-04T11:02:31Z mangol: people close to the process say it was "politics, not art" :)
2021-02-04T11:02:54Z mangol: then again, i would say politics is an art. an extremely important one
2021-02-04T11:03:16Z mangol: including programming language politics
2021-02-04T11:08:34Z ecraven: thanks for the interesting thoughts, I'll be afk for a bit, need to find food :D
2021-02-04T11:11:26Z mangol: same situation here :D :D
2021-02-04T11:11:56Z mangol: after all, caffeine is only one of the essential food groups
2021-02-04T11:12:34Z mangol: with no disrespect to the other members of the methylxanthines family.
2021-02-04T11:13:14Z mangol: see, when you split methylxanthines and hold only one of them as representative of the whole family, it just makes the other ones jealous and ambivalent.
2021-02-04T11:13:58Z mangol: and endless debate over whether a coffee-only or chocolate-only diet is superior
2021-02-04T11:14:31Z mangol: obviously a healthy diet includes both coffee and chocolate
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2021-02-04T12:29:25Z ecraven: a seed and a legume, who would say that's unhealthy? :D
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2021-02-04T12:44:37Z f8l: I don’t drink coffee, and I try to avoid eating chocolate. My diet does not complain about its health.
2021-02-04T13:04:12Z mangol: maybe RnRS should provide the seeds and legumes of scheme, and coffee and chocolate should be left to the more relaxed process
2021-02-04T13:05:52Z mangol: as far as i can tell, there are no fundamental technical obstacles. it would just be a major change in direction, and hence a major social engineering feat.
2021-02-04T13:06:57Z mangol: the art is to structure things such that everyone gets what they want. i think it can be done.
2021-02-04T13:07:37Z ecraven: mangol: the problem is getting people to agree on what is and what isn't necessary in the "core" ;)
2021-02-04T13:08:42Z mangol: ecraven: thankfully, that has been decided for us (if we listen to the implicit lessons told by scheme history): what should go into the core is everything in the R5RS, R6RS, and R7RS-small
2021-02-04T13:09:36Z mangol: it would be very hard to design a language core from scratch, but the aggregate scheme community is only really asking for us to organize what we already have in a form where everyone can gather around the same TeX document
2021-02-04T13:09:50Z mangol: instead of favoring different TeX documents, and all the implications that that has
2021-02-04T13:10:26Z mangol: if we can pull of that feat (which is very significant in itself) we have done well for ourselves and served our community well under demanding circumstances
2021-02-04T13:10:35Z ecraven: I'm arguing that "just" r5-7rs is not enough :P
2021-02-04T13:10:41Z mangol: any new features we add on top of that basic, is "extra credit" as techers say :)
2021-02-04T13:11:23Z ecraven: ah, so you are arguing for "only" a unification RnRs, that "just" creates a core + libraries which offer everything in r5-7rs
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2021-02-04T13:15:55Z mangol: yes, exactly :)
2021-02-04T13:16:29Z mangol: i'm not opposed to adding things like keyword arguments, and immutable versions of scheme's classic data types, but that's extra credit
2021-02-04T13:16:50Z mangol: those would be great, but the more important task is unifying what we already have
2021-02-04T13:16:56Z ecraven: ah, keyword arguments.. that's a hill to die on :P
2021-02-04T13:17:21Z mangol: there's a way to do keyword args so that everyone gets what they want. by cleverly leaving some things implementation-defined.
2021-02-04T13:17:39Z ecraven: well, will the same code run if implementations decide differently?
2021-02-04T13:17:45Z ecraven: otherwise, it's not worth much :P
2021-02-04T13:17:50Z mangol: but it needs to be done in core RnRS because it requires a change to Scheme's procedure call syntax. can't be done in a library.
2021-02-04T13:18:11Z mangol: yes, that's possible as far as i can tell.
2021-02-04T13:19:07Z mangol: at the same time, a large library collection in the spirit of R7RS-large is clearly in demand as well
2021-02-04T13:19:45Z mangol: the key mindset shift required to pull this all off, would be to convince the R7RS-large and other large-language advocates that large libraries don't need to be supplied by RnRS
2021-02-04T13:20:05Z ecraven: nice, so many Schemes that implement R7RS-small! https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-coverage/
2021-02-04T13:20:05Z mangol: and can be supplied by a much more lightweight, faster-moving process involving more people and more experimentation
2021-02-04T13:20:20Z mangol: exactly, because R7RS-small sticks to the essentials of scheme! :)
2021-02-04T13:20:34Z mangol: that's why it's popular, and its niche, relatively uncontroversial
2021-02-04T13:20:52Z ecraven: do you know EuLisp?
2021-02-04T13:21:15Z mangol: only by name
2021-02-04T13:22:07Z ecraven: it had different levels, level-0 was what R5/7RS want to be, a small core. level-1 then built on that, expanding it with lots of libraries (but no core features)
2021-02-04T13:22:35Z ecraven: as far as I know (which - I concede - isn't very far), level-1 was implemented (or at least implementable) entirely in level-0
2021-02-04T13:25:15Z mangol: that sounds like a good approach. but for a language the size of R6RS and R7RS-large, that approach simultaneously goes too far, and doesn't go far enough.
2021-02-04T13:25:23Z ecraven: so some things (like `map') could be moved out of the core, but some others (like sockets :P) could be moved in
2021-02-04T13:25:41Z mangol: the solution is to have only one level of the language, but split it into small modules.
2021-02-04T13:25:59Z ecraven: why not have a "core" profile, and then all the rest above that?
2021-02-04T13:26:23Z mangol: well, the (scheme base) library from R7RS-small could be considered a core profile
2021-02-04T13:26:59Z mangol: but the split between R7RS-small and R7RS-large is already cause for confusion. they are standardized at different paces (different by 7 years and counting)
2021-02-04T13:27:25Z mangol: and the split is quite coarse-grained. R7RS-small must be implemented in full, and optionally also R7RS-large in full
2021-02-04T13:27:55Z mangol: it should be possible to implement only selected parts of the combination R7RS-small + R7RS-large.
2021-02-04T13:28:19Z mangol: indeed, that's what people already do, because that's the practical way to implement Scheme. RnRS should explicitly encourage this style that we use anyway.
2021-02-04T13:28:59Z mangol: and each RnRS for n = 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, ... should ship all at once, with all the modules in the same spec (even though most of them are optional)
2021-02-04T13:29:40Z mangol: since it's very hard to write one spec shipped all at once, that has a ton of modules in it, the process would also encourage people to keep the number of modules low
2021-02-04T13:30:04Z mangol: and move inessential but still useful features to be handled by a more relaxed process
2021-02-04T13:30:53Z mangol: R7RS-large in its current form, to me, should team up with and hang out with SLIB, schemepunk, yuni, spells, ... library collections like that.
2021-02-04T13:31:20Z mangol: the deep syntax SRFIs (macro systems, keyword arguments, ...) should be kept in the RnRS process
2021-02-04T13:32:54Z mangol: if we could combine the R7RS-large data structure SRFIs, SLIB, schemepunk, yuni, spells all into one huge library with a formal yearly or twice-yearly release process
2021-02-04T13:33:22Z mangol: and ship an R8RS that unites R5RS, R6RS, R7RS-small, and the R7RS-large syntax SRFIs
2021-02-04T13:33:47Z mangol: that's what would really get Scheme going as one community
2021-02-04T13:34:42Z mangol: the fact that R7RS-large is one monolithic standard already to be implemented all at once, already has ramifications on things like macro systems
2021-02-04T13:34:43Z ecraven: well, do you think r6rs people will like the r7rs-large syntax extensions in "their" language?
2021-02-04T13:35:13Z mangol: there's been debate on what macro system to add to R7RS-large in addition to syntax-rules. should it be syntax-case? explicit renaming? implicit renaming?
2021-02-04T13:35:31Z ecraven: syntactic closures!
2021-02-04T13:35:53Z mangol: if we have one R8RS, with all of those macro systems (all of them have been already used to write real code in numerous Scheme implementations for years)
2021-02-04T13:36:11Z ecraven: ah, but then a new implementation would have to implement *all* of them
2021-02-04T13:36:23Z mangol: and each of them is an optional library, independent of the others, then we don't have to have debates like that
2021-02-04T13:36:44Z mangol: a new implementation wouldn't need to have any of them because they are all optional
2021-02-04T13:37:18Z mangol: "market pressure" would dictate which macro systems are implemented in practice. if users keep asking for something repeatedly, many implementors will add it
2021-02-04T13:37:40Z mangol: that's already the situation: some schemes have syntax-rules only, some have syntax-case and other er-macro-transformer / ir-...
2021-02-04T13:37:47Z ecraven: well, that way lies total fragmentation. now I cannot use your library because you use one of the macro systems my implementation doesn't support
2021-02-04T13:38:02Z mangol: that situation already exists in Scheme
2021-02-04T13:38:14Z mangol: and it's already solved by market demand
2021-02-04T13:38:47Z mangol: momentum is important in any design process, certainly including the RnRS process
2021-02-04T13:38:55Z Oxyd: The ideal way would be to standardise on just one low-level macro system and then people can implement all their favourite high-level macro systems as portable libraries. You don't need to standardise those because people don't need a standard in order to just download their favourite implementation off the internet.
2021-02-04T13:39:50Z ecraven:  it is? I don't see any single macro system "winning"
2021-02-04T13:39:56Z ecraven: I think I've heard that no-one but a handful of people understand the syntax-case implementation (of which there is only one which has been ported to other systems)
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2021-02-04T13:41:12Z mangol: Oxyd: that's an excellent idea if it's technically possible to pull it off. i'm not good enough at macros to say whether it is.
2021-02-04T13:41:39Z mangol: ecraven: probably right about syntax-case :) psyntax is probably the implementation you're referring to
2021-02-04T13:41:58Z Oxyd: I believe that's how most Schemes are implemented anyway. The interpreter supports some sort of low-level system and the rest is implemented as Scheme code on top of that.
2021-02-04T13:42:03Z mangol: that's also an excellent example of why an ambitious standard needs to aggressively make parts optional
2021-02-04T13:42:05Z ecraven: I'm not entirely sure it would be a good idea to standardise it, *if* indeed the situation is as I've heard ;)
2021-02-04T13:42:59Z mangol: ecraven: IMHO that's too late :) R6RS already standardized it, so we are now stuck with it.
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2021-02-04T13:43:40Z mangol: but we can make syntax-case an optional library so that TinyScheme doesn't need to ship it
2021-02-04T13:44:08Z mangol: even syntax-rules could be an optional library. there are no parts in core Scheme that strictly depend on syntax-rules being present.
2021-02-04T13:45:19Z mangol: and if for some reason, 15 years from now, the scheme community discovers that foo-macro-transformer is a subpar way to do macros, and everything it does can be done better by some other macro system,
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2021-02-04T13:46:02Z mangol: then R9RS can add an advisory note that "we have foo-macro-transformer but nobody will hate you if you don't implement it". and R10RS can drop that module since no-one has used it in 10 years
2021-02-04T13:46:45Z Oxyd: That's a shitty way to write a standard. Either something is required by a standard, or it isn't. Saying it is but not really just makes the whole standard look like a joke.
2021-02-04T13:48:49Z mangol: well, the prior art is that R5RS and R7RS-small were both an obvious success. both are small enough that there is no pressing need to modularize.
2021-02-04T13:49:18Z mangol: and crucially, both R5RS and R7RS-small are _still_ subsetted by implementations all the time. that looks an awful lot like a de facto modularization of the standard
2021-02-04T13:49:48Z mangol: R6RS wasn't modularized in the sense of having optional parts, and it drove a wedge smack dab in the middle of the community for 15 years!
2021-02-04T13:50:05Z mangol: which R7RS-large tries to rectify, driving a similar (but less pronounced) wedge
2021-02-04T13:50:40Z mangol: against that backdrop, a standard that has all of that same stuff but lets the market decide on which options win and which usage profiles are formed,
2021-02-04T13:50:54Z mangol: doesn't look all that bad. not to mention that that's what implementors are already doing in practice
2021-02-04T13:53:00Z mangol: except R6RS implementors, who do much less of it. but R6RS implementors won't retroactively optionalize and extend R6RS to accommodate the langauge that R7RS implementors want to offer
2021-02-04T13:53:24Z mangol: i just don't see any way to get the whole community behind one RnRS without pervasive use of options
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2021-02-04T13:55:32Z Oxyd: What's the point of doing that, though? You write code and you have no guarantee it'll run on all RnRS implementations because they're all free to just not implement some of those parts that your program uses.
2021-02-04T13:58:44Z mangol: that's already the level of guarantee you get for substantial, practical programs
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2021-02-04T13:59:36Z mangol: people already say their Scheme implementation is an R6RS or R7RS implementation, and then just leave a few parts unimplemented
2021-02-04T13:59:53Z ecraven: thus r7rs-coverage :P
2021-02-04T14:00:21Z mangol: exactly. the "which parts to implement" problem can be solved by giving information to the user community about which implementations support what
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2021-02-04T14:00:51Z mangol: using tools such as r7rs-coverage to make it easy to compare implementations
2021-02-04T14:01:03Z Oxyd: Well those people are wrong. If it doesn't implement all the required parts, then it's not a conforming RnRS implementation. And not all valid RnRS programs will run on it. That's precisely the problem. I don't see how your modularisation idea solves that.
2021-02-04T14:01:52Z Oxyd: Ideally, you'd know that something calling itself an RnRS implementation means that you can use all of RnRS. That's the whole point of having these reports.
2021-02-04T14:02:08Z mangol: full conformance to a big standard is not the decisive factor for a useful programming environment
2021-02-04T14:02:20Z mangol: that's not the point of having the reports
2021-02-04T14:02:24Z Oxyd: If we want to switch to webpages detailing which Schemes implement which parts, then maybe we can just get rid of the reports completely.
2021-02-04T14:02:40Z Oxyd: No, that's precisely the point of having the reports.
2021-02-04T14:03:07Z Oxyd: If that is not meant to be the point, the let's just get rid of them.
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2021-02-04T14:08:17Z ecraven: hm.. anyone here familiar with the tinyscheme codebase? it seems to have problems with calling (read) while loading a file.
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2021-02-04T14:09:39Z mangol: ecraven: IIRC TinyScheme's reader is implemented using a gnarly C state machine. good luck :)
2021-02-04T14:09:55Z ecraven: hehe, I'm not fixing it, just noticing ;)
2021-02-04T14:10:04Z ecraven: the stalin egg hasn't been ported to chicken5 yet :-/
2021-02-04T14:10:05Z mangol: Oxyd: the black-and-white thinking you espose is not followed in practice, and yet mysteriously people are writing useful scheme code :)
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2021-02-04T14:10:36Z mangol: based on the RnRS reports that we have so far, even though they are often not fully implemented
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2021-02-04T14:11:48Z Oxyd: You appear to be confused about the role of standards. You certainly don't need a standard to “write useful Scheme code”. You can simply download an implementation, follow its documentation and write useful code for that and you don't even have to know that RnRS exists. The problem is if you want to write code that's not chained to a single implementation. Then you need to write your code
2021-02-04T14:11:50Z Oxyd: against a particular standard, and the implementations have to follow that standard fully if they are to run your program. “Mostly compliant” doesn't cut it.
2021-02-04T14:12:51Z mangol: i am not confused about the practical role of standards. i may be confused about the Platonic Form of a standard that doesn't exist anywhere in nature
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2021-02-04T14:14:37Z mangol: the practical value of a Scheme standard is that _when_ any two implementations do thing X, they do it the same way. _if_ only some implementations do thing X, and others don't, that's fine. _unless_ thing X is something totally essential
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2021-02-04T14:15:32Z mangol: that's track record of what the RnRS standards deliver so far, and it works well.
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2021-02-04T14:16:20Z mangol: if a scheme implementor really doesn't want to add feature X, it's hard to persuade them to add it by invoking the authority of RnRS. empirically, they'll just boycott that edition of RnRS
2021-02-04T14:17:32Z Oxyd: Which is completely fine. But that Scheme shouldn't be labelled as RnRS Scheme so that people aren't confused into thinking that their RnRS programs will work on it.
2021-02-04T14:18:13Z mangol: "RnRS program" is not a practical stand-in for "useful program"
2021-02-04T14:18:27Z Oxyd: Correct.
2021-02-04T14:19:02Z Oxyd: And indeed, RnRS doesn't define what a “useful program is”. It merely defines what “an RnRS program” is.
2021-02-04T14:19:17Z mangol: as it stands, RnRS is actively getting in the way of useful programming due to the R6RS/R7RS split, and due to the fact that R7RS-large focusing on nice-to-have but inessential libraries is holding back evolution of the core language
2021-02-04T14:19:37Z mangol: IMHO that's the first priority to fix
2021-02-04T14:20:28Z Oxyd: I agree. Useful libraries should be left up to third parties, not bundled with the language.
2021-02-04T14:20:37Z mangol: great :)
2021-02-04T14:21:08Z mangol: but i would argue that we have a responsibility to the people who wrote the earlier RnRS reports, and the programmers who rely on them, to carry forward those parts of the language
2021-02-04T14:21:47Z mangol: and combining R6RS + R7RS into one language leads to a franken-language _unless_ we modularize everything
2021-02-04T14:25:14Z mangol: happily, all of R6RS, R7RS-small, and R7RS-large are already well modularized internally. those reports just say "it's true that we went to the trouble of splitting all our stuff into neat modules, but that doesn't mean implementors or users should actually care about those module boundaries"
2021-02-04T14:25:23Z mangol: "pay no attention to the modules behind the curtain"
2021-02-04T14:27:39Z mangol: Will Clinger wrote "R7RS Considered Unifier of Previous Standards". his technical points are astute, but if his title is correct, why do i keep typing "-r 6" and "-r 7" into scheme implementations all day?
2021-02-04T14:27:44Z mangol: and caring about which standard i use
2021-02-04T14:28:25Z mangol: his paper is a commendable exploration of the problem, as is Takashi Kato's similar paper, but they don't go far enough
2021-02-04T14:28:47Z jcowan: Because the commitment to a particular standard is like the commitment to a particular Scheme: it is tribal, not technical.
2021-02-04T14:29:20Z jcowan: and the same for the commitment to a particular Lisp or a particular programming language.
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2021-02-04T14:31:08Z ecraven: jcowan: at least for r7rs, things aren't looking so bad! just tried to update things, some of those misses may still be my fault: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-coverage/
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2021-02-04T14:32:51Z jcowan: Oxyd: Conformance to a standard is never going to be exact.  I encourage every implementer to document "derogations from the standard", points at which their implementation does things differently.
2021-02-04T14:33:20Z jcowan: Portability does not mean, and has never meant, that you can pick up code, even conforming code, and have it guaranteed to work without any adjustments.
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2021-02-04T14:34:53Z jcowan: Long ago, I was working with a member of another dharma line to get a rather large non-interactive program (I forget if it was a server or a CLI program) ported from some Unix variety to Windows.  I sold him on the best way to do this being Interix (the distant ancestor of WSL).
2021-02-04T14:36:44Z jcowan: We set up the Interix environment on a Windows machine and ran 'make'.  At that stage of my existence, I expected it to just compile and link without further ado.  But there were some glitches, partly from version skew in gcc, partly for other reasons I forget now.
2021-02-04T14:37:05Z jcowan: I said to him, "This isn't very portable, is it."
2021-02-04T14:37:23Z jcowan: He replied "Are you kidding?  Porting C code usually takes days to weeks."
2021-02-04T14:37:38Z jcowan: We fixed the problems within a few hours.
2021-02-04T14:40:03Z jcowan: As far as R6 vs R7, the question is "Whose base library is this?", where "base library" can be roughly defined as "the library that defines `define`".
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2021-02-04T15:10:30Z mangol: if commitment is tribal, we should find a way to unite the tribes. if we can take the things we already have and structure them so that everyone gets what they want,
2021-02-04T15:10:49Z mangol: though perhaps not in the way they expected to get it, we can unite the scheme standards.
2021-02-04T15:11:22Z mangol: i don't see technical obstacles. i see social obstacles, but i'm wired to doubt that they are formidable.
2021-02-04T15:12:34Z mangol: we now have scheme.org, and within a few days of asking, 12 implementations now have a foo.scheme.org redirect for themselves
2021-02-04T15:12:44Z mangol: people want scheme to be one thing they can get behind
2021-02-04T15:18:37Z aeth: of the big three (Racket, Guile, Chicken), only Chicken seems to have it
2021-02-04T15:19:28Z aeth: Chez no, Kawa yes, Chibi yes.
2021-02-04T15:19:37Z mangol: i sent mail to Andy Wingo of Guile; he hasn't replied yet. we haven't yet asked Chez. of Racket, we haven't asked and i'm not sure whether they want one; we can ask once we have the rest
2021-02-04T15:20:19Z aeth: Hmm, and MIT/GNU Scheme is mit.scheme.org, which I guess makes sense.
2021-02-04T15:21:07Z mangol: as with GNU/Linux -> Linux, MIT Scheme is what everyone calls it. and they also have a mit-scheme.org redirect previously registered
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2021-02-04T16:08:26Z jcowan: Not to mention that there are two other GNU Schemes, Guile and Kawa
2021-02-04T16:10:08Z jcowan: (in the sense that they are listed on https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html, not merely that they use GNU licenses_
2021-02-04T16:10:26Z aeth: GNU has at least two CLs (CLISP, GCL), at least three Schemes (Guile, Kawa, MIT), and at least one other Lisp (Emacs Lisp).
2021-02-04T16:11:10Z aeth: Probably just those 6 but I'm not going to go through each of those packages to verify that.
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2021-02-04T16:40:36Z iv4nshm4k0v: ... And then there's GNU SLIB as well...
2021-02-04T16:53:16Z Riastradh: duncanm: Yes, obviously we'll need to use MAP_JIT, but the issue is that currently compiled code blocks live in the same pages of the heap as everything else that's writable.  So it will be necessary to store compiled blocks in separately allocated pages, which requires teaching the garbage collector about them.
2021-02-04T16:54:03Z duncanm: Ah
2021-02-04T16:55:38Z jcowan: Saying "Sure, link to me" hardly constitutes a union of tribes.
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2021-02-04T16:56:13Z jcowan: Did you get any indication from those chez Chez why they turned it down?
2021-02-04T17:00:25Z gwatt: jcowan: they said "we haven't yet asked Chez"
2021-02-04T17:01:08Z jcowan: Oh, I was confused.
2021-02-04T17:01:57Z justinethier: ecraven - Husk should be good to go now, had to upload a new version with some compilation fixes to Hackage
2021-02-04T17:02:31Z justinethier: I doubt husk will stack up very well against other schemes in the benchmarks though :(
2021-02-04T17:02:47Z jcowan: As for macro systems, there is pretty good empirical evidence that you can't implement syntax-case on top of er or vice versa.
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2021-02-04T17:03:42Z jcowan: It may well be that we cannot find common ground, but we'll see what the voters have to sayl
2021-02-04T17:04:12Z gwatt: I'm pretty sure you can implement er on top of syntax-case
2021-02-04T17:04:30Z Zipheir: Speaking of which, I'm guessing that voting on the Orange ballot can happen pretty soon.
2021-02-04T17:07:49Z ecraven: justinethier: thanks!
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2021-02-04T17:08:00Z ecraven: justinethier: I'm at least as interested in r7rs-coverage as in r7rs-benchmarks ;)
2021-02-04T17:08:19Z ecraven: imho it's at least as important.. if you *only* want fast, you can always use stalin :P
2021-02-04T17:08:31Z ecraven: (not that I can get that to compile on this machine without lots of hoop-jumping)
2021-02-04T17:08:34Z justinethier: Good point :)
2021-02-04T17:09:28Z ecraven: I like the benchmarks, but I'd love to get something quantitative going as well, comparing actually useful features
2021-02-04T17:15:20Z justinethier: Both are useful. Coverage would be especially helpful to assess how well each system supports R7RS large
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2021-02-04T17:25:24Z mangol: jcowan: linking is not a union of tribes. it's an indication that if there's easy way to unite, they will.
2021-02-04T17:25:54Z Zipheir: AFAIK chibi is the only Scheme so far to provide the R7RS-large libraries under both their SRFI names and their (scheme FOO) names.
2021-02-04T17:25:55Z mangol: in my view, the work of standardization is to build that way for them. like a big sign that says "unite here, see how easy it is. we did the work for you"
2021-02-04T17:26:31Z mangol: in practice, that requires an ongoing dialog with implementors throughout the standardization process
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2021-02-04T17:28:15Z mangol: RnRS is currently having that dialog. but R6RS implementors are left out of it.
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2021-02-04T17:29:31Z Zipheir: Since R7 is more or less backwards-compatible, it's not like they've been forced out.
2021-02-04T17:30:51Z Zipheir: The main drivers behind R6 seem to live on an island somewhere.  I've never seen them on any Scheme-related mls, channels, etc.
2021-02-04T17:31:06Z mangol: R6RS implementors are not of the opinion that (library ...) and syntax-case and condition objects are old-style code and R7RS is the new style.
2021-02-04T17:31:53Z Zipheir: I don't think that's a big difference.  s/library/define-library/, and move on.
2021-02-04T17:32:10Z mangol: yes, it's painful that there are two different ways to do the same thing, and that people are AWOL or grumpy and you don't know what they think or what they want.
2021-02-04T17:32:11Z Zipheir: I'm perfectly happy to provide multiple library definition files, anyway.
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2021-02-04T17:32:46Z mangol: the point of standardization is agreement, and the point of agreement is to put aside social/personal differences like that so technical compatibility can be achieved
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2021-02-04T17:33:39Z Zipheir: mangol: I think it's fair enough to say that's the opposite of the R6RS approach.
2021-02-04T17:33:44Z mangol: doesn't matter.
2021-02-04T17:33:48Z mangol: R6RS is set in stone.
2021-02-04T17:33:54Z mangol: nothing can change that
2021-02-04T17:34:06Z mangol: R7RS-large is not yet set in stone.
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2021-02-04T17:34:21Z mangol: we still have options
2021-02-04T17:34:56Z Zipheir: (Not that it was driven by "social/personal differences", but that it was something of a "this is the new Scheme" statement.)
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2021-02-04T17:35:49Z mangol: yes, they acted against the interests of the scheme community taken as a whole. but it's been 13 years. we can't go back in time and tell them to act different.
2021-02-04T17:36:33Z mangol: what we can do, is consciously decide whether we want to repeat that move with R7RS-large or ship something that the whole scheme community can get behind.
2021-02-04T17:37:09Z mangol: "that will never work" is a fair objection, but i'd be willing to try exhausting all the avenues before giving up. we have many options left before finalizing anything
2021-02-04T17:38:44Z Zipheir: Right.
2021-02-04T17:39:16Z Riastradh: i'mma draw a scheme from a stone and thereby become king
2021-02-04T17:39:17Z Zipheir: The main fight is against apathy, the combined "there's no point"/"why did they choose *that*?" responses.
2021-02-04T17:40:16Z amirouche: Cython is not an implementation of Python
2021-02-04T17:40:19Z amirouche backlogs
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2021-02-04T17:40:49Z Zipheir: As with the SRFI process, we don't have enough people with enough time, and the people who aren't involved kvetch about things they didn't comment on when they could.
2021-02-04T17:41:40Z Zipheir: Maybe we can fix it with merch-bribery, as AAG suggests.
2021-02-04T17:43:20Z mangol: regrettably, bribery cannot fix exhaustion
2021-02-04T17:43:57Z mangol: i'm not at all apathetic about our chances of uniting R6RS and R7RS
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2021-02-04T17:45:06Z mangol: but it requires taking everything set on the nice TeX template since R5RS and saying "this is good", whether you like saying so or not.
2021-02-04T17:45:37Z mangol: and finding a way to make it all work
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2021-02-04T17:46:52Z Riastradh: `the lambda of the lake, her arms clad in purest shimmering symbols, held aloft continuation from the bottom of the stack, signifying by define providence that I, Arthur Gleckler, was to continue the computation -- THAT is why I am your king'
2021-02-04T17:48:35Z mangol: fulfill the prophecy
2021-02-04T17:49:31Z mangol: as for why people are exhausted to varying degrees by the SRFI process, that's a different but related problem.
2021-02-04T17:49:44Z mangol: SRFI is much lighter than RnRS in the sense that a SRFI's scope is way more limited.
2021-02-04T17:50:07Z mangol: but it's similarly heavyweight in that you write a comprehensive document in one go, ship it out the door, and it's final.
2021-02-04T17:50:16Z mangol: that puts a lot of pressure on getting things right at once
2021-02-04T17:50:54Z mangol: that's a good thing for RnRS (when RnRS sticks close to the core language) because a core language has to be a stable bedrock that everything is built on
2021-02-04T17:51:02Z wasamasa: speaking of which
2021-02-04T17:51:04Z mangol: but it's not necessary for higher level libraries
2021-02-04T17:51:24Z wasamasa: amirouche: could you please enlighten me what the outstanding issue is with https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-167/pull/14#issuecomment-771082099
2021-02-04T17:52:40Z wasamasa: amirouche: worrying about performance, fine, I worry about spec-conformant behavior here :P
2021-02-04T17:52:46Z mangol: the current idea of building the next RnRS by shipping it part by part as SRFIs is a clever and effective one
2021-02-04T17:53:17Z mangol: but it doesn't fix the scope creep of RnRS toward ever higher-level libraries while neglecting its main remit of compatibility close to the core of Scheme
2021-02-04T17:54:08Z Zipheir: It seems like versioning of library specs is a good idea.
2021-02-04T17:54:10Z mangol: as said, those high-level libraries are great and there is demand for them, but RnRS is the most daunting process imaginable for creating them
2021-02-04T17:54:31Z wasamasa: Zipheir: yes indeed, I've noticed that with the above SRFI, it was almost, but not really usable
2021-02-04T17:55:36Z amirouche: wasamasa: your wording is what I had in mind.
2021-02-04T17:55:43Z wasamasa: hum
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2021-02-04T17:55:44Z Zipheir: Other languages simply declare certain specs "stable" and continue to fine-tune the rest.
2021-02-04T17:55:53Z wasamasa: that's great
2021-02-04T17:56:08Z Riastradh: i declare myself `stable' and fine-tune the rest
2021-02-04T17:56:25Z amirouche: and leave any new features to downstream
2021-02-04T17:56:59Z wasamasa: amirouche: maybe being a tiny bit clearer that it may not raise an exception for a missing key
2021-02-04T17:57:01Z Zipheir: amirouche: And new features can then be integrated upstream without breaking everything, in theory, if the spec is allowed to continue to change.
2021-02-04T17:57:24Z amirouche: wasamasa: yes
2021-02-04T17:57:27Z wasamasa: alright
2021-02-04T17:59:04Z amirouche: overal I agree with mangol, I also agree with ecraven that sockets are a missing piece to help with portability.
2021-02-04T17:59:39Z amirouche: (I think it was mentioned, but it seems to me having a two c ffi profiles would be a good thing)
2021-02-04T18:00:32Z Zipheir: FFI totally sucks and no number of libraries will never be really satisfactory.
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2021-02-04T18:00:39Z Zipheir: Oops, ever, even.
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2021-02-04T18:00:56Z wasamasa: ever seen this thing: https://github.com/skeeto/elisp-ffi
2021-02-04T18:01:06Z wasamasa: it's a funny hack
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2021-02-04T18:01:09Z amirouche: I think that R7RS-large is a good thing, setting library specications in stone for things as complex or diverse such as OKVS or JSON.
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2021-02-04T18:01:47Z amirouche: I mean having a common OKVS is nice, but being able to evolve the interface is better.
2021-02-04T18:02:06Z wasamasa: versioned SRFIs could be useful
2021-02-04T18:02:16Z wasamasa: like, suppose that HTTP SRFI that's occasionally talked about
2021-02-04T18:02:29Z wasamasa: start out simple, iron out all the bugs, release a new and more useful version
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2021-02-04T18:02:48Z wasamasa: that I'd have a lot less reservations with than an unchanging SRFI
2021-02-04T18:03:08Z amirouche: yep maybe versioned SRFIs could be a good thing. What I am not completly ready to do is "throw away SRFI process" because it has lot of momentum and people know about it.
2021-02-04T18:03:30Z amirouche: If a new process is started, it should play nice with SRFI.
2021-02-04T18:03:33Z mangol: perhaps i might interest you in periodic versions? for example, yearly :D
2021-02-04T18:03:35Z wasamasa: not sure about the naming though
2021-02-04T18:03:37Z Zipheir: Maybe a suggestion of SRFI versions on srfi-discuss would be a way to raise the possibility.
2021-02-04T18:03:44Z wasamasa: maybe like with SCPs
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2021-02-04T18:04:19Z mangol: my favorite data point is OpenBSD
2021-02-04T18:04:20Z Zipheir: (import (srfi SRFI-NUMBER VERSION-NUMBER))
2021-02-04T18:04:29Z wasamasa: SRFI-111 is the start, SRFI-111-1 and SRFI-111-2 would be related ones
2021-02-04T18:04:29Z amirouche: mangol: yes, yearly version would work. I think starting a new effort from scratch, a separate entity, is a lot of social and marketing effort
2021-02-04T18:04:47Z mangol: openbsd releases a version every six months. always on the same date.
2021-02-04T18:05:07Z mangol: instead of planning some milestone that the versions will have, they simply ship whatever is stable at that time.
2021-02-04T18:05:17Z wasamasa: not sure about (import (srfi NUMBER VERSION)) as we already have things like (import (srfi NUMBER NAME)) or (import (srfi NUMBER test))
2021-02-04T18:05:32Z amirouche: mangol: do they have LTS versions? how do they handle deprecation?
2021-02-04T18:06:38Z amirouche: Maybe C FFI is the wrong level of abstraction.
2021-02-04T18:06:54Z Zipheir: It is.
2021-02-04T18:07:55Z amirouche: Not having a common socket interface is painful. And thinking about making it working across OS outside POSIX... is very daunting.
2021-02-04T18:08:06Z Zipheir: amirouche: They don't do LTS, and you need to keep on top of new versions.  IIRC there's no trivial way to "skip" releases when upgrading.
2021-02-04T18:08:47Z amirouche: Zipheir: does it mean, every 6 month, one must upgrade?
2021-02-04T18:09:04Z Zipheir: Pretty much.
2021-02-04T18:09:33Z Zipheir: If you want to keep getting patches, that is.
2021-02-04T18:09:38Z amirouche: That is much different from usual way that i consider the _lazy_ way, that boils down to "not upgrade at all"
2021-02-04T18:10:05Z Zipheir: You can do that with OpenBSD, if you don't care about recent fixes.
2021-02-04T18:10:06Z mangol: amirouche: i don't think OpenBSD has LTS versions, but they probably backport security fixes to old versions
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2021-02-04T18:10:53Z mangol: anyway, for Scheme libraries, what we would be standardizing yearly (or twice-yearly, etc.) is the API, not the implementation
2021-02-04T18:11:06Z mangol: standardizing = releasing a stable version
2021-02-04T18:11:16Z amirouche: we could do yearly release anyway, but at some point if industry catch on, they will want Long Term Support release, that is the common idiom in the industry.
2021-02-04T18:11:25Z mangol: so bugs and optimizations can be done to the implementation of a stable release after that date if people care enough
2021-02-04T18:11:29Z amirouche: Another pain point with SRFI: the absence of CI.
2021-02-04T18:11:47Z Zipheir: That's entirely an implementation issue.
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2021-02-04T18:11:47Z amirouche: (or even cross scheme CI = my dream)
2021-02-04T18:12:03Z Zipheir: The critical thing is and always should be a good specification.
2021-02-04T18:12:17Z amirouche: specification is moving target?
2021-02-04T18:12:31Z mangol: amirouche: agreed. i'm skeptical that good specifications can be written waterfall-style in one go.
2021-02-04T18:13:03Z mangol: unless the spec is a generalization of proven stuff that already exists. good SRFIs tend to be like that.
2021-02-04T18:13:08Z Zipheir: Sure.  But that doesn't mean the entire specification should be changing constantly.
2021-02-04T18:13:28Z mangol: Zipheir: i predict there's social pressure against drastic changes
2021-02-04T18:13:29Z amirouche: Also, SRFI style specification are too short or terse for use as documentation by users.
2021-02-04T18:13:31Z Zipheir: (And there's no testing English.)
2021-02-04T18:13:43Z mangol: amirouche: i also agree with you on documentation
2021-02-04T18:15:20Z mangol: the SRFI process should stay with us for sure, but empirically, the best SRFIs are tightly scoped and ideally codify existing practices.
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2021-02-04T18:15:53Z mangol: big SRFIs that invent lots of new stuff tend to be the daunting ones, with varying success.
2021-02-04T18:16:15Z mangol: that kinda thing is best left to a design process that lets us add things piecemeal, and fix mistakes later
2021-02-04T18:17:06Z amirouche: maybe, the problem is that we think in terms of "standard" and "specification", that is daunting for many devs (me included before 2 or 3 years back)
2021-02-04T18:17:27Z amirouche: if we think / speak in terms of portable libraries, people will find that more relatable.
2021-02-04T18:17:33Z mangol: agree completely.
2021-02-04T18:18:17Z mangol: to be more precisely, specifications should be written based on existing libraries, not the other way around. or written at the same time, so both can be changed later.
2021-02-04T18:18:42Z amirouche: what is the difference between specification and documentation?
2021-02-04T18:18:57Z mangol: documentation is nicer to read :)
2021-02-04T18:19:10Z mangol: "specification is in serif font, documentation is in sans-serif font"
2021-02-04T18:19:11Z ecraven: RnRS are plenty nice to read ;)
2021-02-04T18:19:20Z amirouche: In many instance, I see the Python doc missing some significant information like big O complexity that may be included in PEP.
2021-02-04T18:19:24Z mangol: i agree though. RnRS are a pleasure to read
2021-02-04T18:19:59Z amirouche: (in fact, I do not remember reading about big O complexiy in python doc)
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2021-02-04T18:20:14Z Zipheir: Thinking in terms of specifications is a good discipline of programming.
2021-02-04T18:20:45Z mangol: IMHO good programming requires a mix of different approaches. some problems are so vague that there's nothing to make a specification of
2021-02-04T18:20:51Z ecraven: I think R7RS did very well by adding a library / module system... now the main thing I'm still missing is networking / sockets (which might be possible to specify) and FFI (which I doubt is even possible to specify satisfactorily)
2021-02-04T18:21:05Z amirouche: I agree with ecraven
2021-02-04T18:21:23Z amirouche: and mangol
2021-02-04T18:21:28Z amirouche: but not Zipheir :P
2021-02-04T18:21:33Z amirouche: because.
2021-02-04T18:21:52Z Zipheir: amirouche: On what point?
2021-02-04T18:22:04Z amirouche: That was a joke.
2021-02-04T18:22:08Z amirouche: trying to be a joke.
2021-02-04T18:22:12Z Zipheir: Ah, ok.
2021-02-04T18:22:59Z amirouche: Specification is really important as starting point, but I take the example of OKVS, it is difficult maybe impossible to figure how it is useful even if you may be able to implement it based on the document.
2021-02-04T18:23:41Z Zipheir: Well, those details are always going to be difficult to state clearly.
2021-02-04T18:23:42Z amirouche: Things like red-black tree are very useful and essential, and stand on their own, they do not require more explanation or more precisly explaining every situation where you can use it is impossible
2021-02-04T18:24:16Z amirouche: I think what I miss in SRFI documennts is how-tos or cookbook.
2021-02-04T18:24:22Z Zipheir: When I talk about specifications, I mean clear statements (in some language) of what computations you're talking about.
2021-02-04T18:24:36Z Zipheir: (More SRFIs should have formal semantics, incidentally.)
2021-02-04T18:24:51Z ecraven: I still believe that the core language should be as small as possible (but no smaller). I wouldn't mind moving `map' to (scheme list), but instead gaining (scheme socket) or (scheme network) :P also, some standard way to version libraries would be great, there are some things missing from srfi 13 or srfi 1 that should really be added :-/
2021-02-04T18:25:16Z mangol: ecraven: we agree :)
2021-02-04T18:25:31Z mangol: happily, R6RS and R7RS already have good implementations of those ideas
2021-02-04T18:25:38Z ecraven: are there other languages that define their APIs as statically as this? the standard libraries of python or java keep evolving
2021-02-04T18:25:52Z Zipheir: SRFI 13 is essentially an "old version" of SRFI 152.
2021-02-04T18:26:03Z amirouche: I was under the impression that library versioning was impossible or never worked in practice.
2021-02-04T18:26:18Z amirouche: what is the difference between versioning and renaming?
2021-02-04T18:26:29Z Zipheir: Perception.
2021-02-04T18:26:31Z mangol: people don't use R6RS library versions in practice. but they can be made to work.
2021-02-04T18:26:49Z mangol: in R6RS, the library version is the (1 2 3) part in (import (foo bar baz (1 2 3)))
2021-02-04T18:27:10Z amirouche: I mean, what would be the point to specifically add version to libraries, instead of using `(scheme list 1)`, `(scheme list 2)` ...
2021-02-04T18:27:28Z mangol: it doesn't matter that much which way it is done
2021-02-04T18:27:32Z amirouche: (if / when number are accepted as library names)
2021-02-04T18:27:47Z ecraven: amirouche: they are, just not in r6rs
2021-02-04T18:28:07Z ecraven: many r7rs srfis are like (srfi 54321)
2021-02-04T18:28:24Z mangol: if we did a combined R6RS + R7RS, we could fix the little oversights like the fact that R6RS doesn't allow numbers in library names and doesn't have (include ...)
2021-02-04T18:28:43Z amirouche: yes?
2021-02-04T18:29:00Z Zipheir: Combining the R6RS and R7RS semantics would be an interesting challenge.
2021-02-04T18:29:05Z ecraven: mangol: the main question being, would any r6rs implementors follow those "small fixes"
2021-02-04T18:29:11Z mangol: Zipheir: see http://andykeep.com/SchemeWorkshop2015/papers/sfpw1-2015-clinger.pdf
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2021-02-04T18:29:27Z amirouche: Still, there is many subjects in R7RS-large roadmap that should be broadly discussed.
2021-02-04T18:29:45Z Zipheir: mangol: Yeah, I've read that a few times.  It's quite handy.
2021-02-04T18:29:45Z mangol: Zipheir: see also in R6RS too
2021-02-04T18:29:56Z mangol: Zipheir: http://www.schemeworkshop.org/2014/papers/Kato2014.pdf
2021-02-04T18:30:27Z amirouche: oh, while I think about it, what is the goal of this converation?
2021-02-04T18:30:28Z Zipheir: But I'm thinking of the formal semantics.  R6 completely reworked them, using operational semantics.  R7 went back to the R5RS denotational semantics without making any additions, IIRC.
2021-02-04T18:30:36Z Zipheir: amirouche: Good question.
2021-02-04T18:30:41Z ecraven: amirouche: venting :P
2021-02-04T18:30:50Z amirouche: ecraven: :D
2021-02-04T18:30:53Z mangol: amirouche: IMHO one of the main problems with R7RS-large in its current forms, is that people can't seem to agree on a roadmap and timeline
2021-02-04T18:31:13Z Zipheir: At some point, the R7RS exception system needs to be given formal semantics... anyway.
2021-02-04T18:31:54Z mangol: Zipheir: i think that's the kind of thing that RnRS process should concentrate on
2021-02-04T18:32:06Z mangol: while preserving full backward compatibility with R6RS exceptions
2021-02-04T18:32:14Z amirouche: mangol: the problem I think about, is that how do you help schemers gather to discuss say macros, outside the RnRS process?
2021-02-04T18:32:31Z mangol: amirouche: i agree that core stuff like macros should be discussed in the RnRS process
2021-02-04T18:32:57Z mangol: but something like bitvectors, queues, sockets or graphics is not core
2021-02-04T18:32:59Z ecraven: I think everything that can be implemented on top of the core doesn't need to be a part of the standard.
2021-02-04T18:33:07Z amirouche: mangol: I agree.
2021-02-04T18:33:15Z amirouche: Agreed.
2021-02-04T18:33:16Z ecraven: I'd argue that bitvectors might be, if they have custom syntax
2021-02-04T18:33:27Z amirouche: but again custom syntax... ;)
2021-02-04T18:33:46Z ecraven: and sockets I consider central to any language in this day and age
2021-02-04T18:34:11Z mangol: sockets are not a language construct in the way that ports or continuations are
2021-02-04T18:34:14Z amirouche: ecraven: I will send you sockets for next secret santa, i promise ;)
2021-02-04T18:34:27Z amirouche: +1 mangol
2021-02-04T18:34:53Z mangol: if we had infinitely many people, who are infinitely smart, we should do everything in RnRS, including strong AI
2021-02-04T18:34:55Z ecraven: ah, custom ports, another relevant thing
2021-02-04T18:35:16Z mangol: the reason we should aggressively cut things out of RnRS process, is because we have finite people, time, and smarts
2021-02-04T18:35:42Z mangol: the one job that RnRS can do, and nothing else can, is compatibility
2021-02-04T18:36:04Z mangol: currently it's not doing that job
2021-02-04T18:36:13Z mangol: while taking on more and more nice-to-have stuff
2021-02-04T18:36:33Z mangol: like a household that is maxing out their credit card on luxuries while not paying utility bills
2021-02-04T18:37:18Z mangol: if RnRS doesn't handle R5RS+R6RS+R7RS compatibility, nothing else can handle it
2021-02-04T18:37:30Z mangol: if RnRS doesn't handle sockets or queues, we can work something out
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2021-02-04T18:40:52Z Zipheir: The economic metaphor doesn't make any sense.
2021-02-04T18:41:14Z mangol: in our case, we're spending time, not money.
2021-02-04T18:41:18Z mangol: time and morale.
2021-02-04T18:41:21Z Zipheir: It's fundamentally a question of standarization philosophy.  There's nothing unusual about incompatible standards.
2021-02-04T18:41:58Z mangol: for the same language?
2021-02-04T18:42:00Z Zipheir: The R6RS and R7RS semantics may be incompatible, but we'll need people who understand both to figure out what to do about it.
2021-02-04T18:42:31Z amirouche: +1 Zipheir
2021-02-04T18:43:41Z mangol: indeed. we have at least 2 papers about R6RS-R7RS compat, and several good people to work on it. if there's a will, there's a way.
2021-02-04T18:43:46Z Zipheir: mangol: Sure.  Ever heard of C89 and C99?
2021-02-04T18:43:51Z amirouche: I do not think compatibility between RnRS is an interesting goal. Today, my gold for RnRS would be to have the best abstraction / tooling / procedures / forms etc... for Scheme so that implementations can build upon that in a way that is compatible.
2021-02-04T18:44:29Z amirouche: compatibility between implementations is more important, than compatibility between RnRS.
2021-02-04T18:44:53Z mangol: amirouche: but one half of people would like to have that for R7RS, and the other half for R6RS
2021-02-04T18:45:09Z mangol: i agree that compatibility between implementations is the main thing. but that's what RnRS is supposed to accomplish
2021-02-04T18:45:33Z amirouche: I do not think there is still a big technical split between R7RS and R6RS
2021-02-04T18:45:41Z mangol: Zipheir: isn't C99 a compatible superset of C89?
2021-02-04T18:45:42Z amirouche: maybe [ ] syntax
2021-02-04T18:46:25Z Zipheir: mangol: Sure, but then, R7 is a (mostly) compatible superset of R6.
2021-02-04T18:47:00Z Zipheir: Well, ignoring the formal semantics.
2021-02-04T18:47:28Z mangol: Zipheir: R7RS doesn't have syntax-case, identifier syntax, condition system, custom ports, transcoders, ...
2021-02-04T18:47:58Z Zipheir: I was only talking about the core languages.
2021-02-04T18:48:10Z mangol: if R7RS-large is on track to have those things, in a way that's compatible with R6RS on a surface syntax level and not only as in "similar semantics are described somewhere in the spec" that's good
2021-02-04T18:48:14Z Zipheir: There's definitely a lot of mismatches with the libraries.
2021-02-04T18:48:35Z mangol: those mismatches would be the core competency of RnRS
2021-02-04T18:48:39Z mangol: sorting them out
2021-02-04T18:49:01Z amirouche: but again compatibility is not a good goal, the best thing is the good thing.
2021-02-04T18:49:03Z X-Scale: "<Zipheir> mangol: Sure.  Ever heard of C89 and C99?" <- that makes me remember an interview to Dennis Ritchie around 2000, who was actively involved in the developmentof C89 from 1983 to 1988.
2021-02-04T18:49:05Z mangol: or should be at any rate. up until R5RS there doesn't seem to have been controversy over that
2021-02-04T18:49:13Z X-Scale: LinuxWorld.com: C99, the recently ratified ANSI/ISO C standard, contains several new features, such as restricted pointers, variadic macros, bool, and new libraries for complex and type-generic arithmetic. Are you satisfied with C99?
2021-02-04T18:49:17Z X-Scale: Dennis Ritchie: I was satisfied with the 1989/1990 ANSI/ISO standard. The new C99 standard is much bulkier, and though the committee has signaled that much of their time was spent in resisting feature-suggestions, there are still plenty of accepted ones to digest. I certainly don't desire additional ones, and the most obvious reaction is that I wish they had resisted more firmly.
2021-02-04T18:49:40Z Zipheir: It's always the same story.
2021-02-04T18:50:02Z amirouche: what story?
2021-02-04T18:50:10Z mangol: X-Scale: thanks for the quotes!
2021-02-04T18:50:24Z Zipheir: The original designers think that revisions add too much, usually.
2021-02-04T18:50:53Z amirouche: anyway, it is not our choice to decide where RnRS will go.
2021-02-04T18:50:56Z mangol: yes. but for the people who come later, the salient fact is that those revisions already exist and are immutable
2021-02-04T18:51:41Z amirouche: it seems to me, R7RS is a better R6RS, it might miss some stuff like syntax-case etc... but it is not off-road. What we can do is create that portable set of tested libraries with yearly specifications.
2021-02-04T18:51:53Z mangol: R7RS-large is on track to receive the same criticism that R6RS received
2021-02-04T18:52:06Z amirouche: not necessarly.
2021-02-04T18:52:07Z mangol: that it adds too many idiosyncratic things that its designers personally like
2021-02-04T18:52:40Z amirouche: again, where outside RnRS can the conversation happen?
2021-02-04T18:52:45Z mangol: R7RS-large is just the return of R6RS. now we have two incompatible standards that please their designers
2021-02-04T18:52:55Z ecraven: but isn't all of R7RS-large optional? it's all libraries that may or may not be implemented?
2021-02-04T18:53:13Z mangol: well, John has gone out of his way to solicit feedback on R7RS-large, which is absolutely wonderful
2021-02-04T18:53:29Z Zipheir: Yes, subsets are definitely allowed, which is a major difference from R6.
2021-02-04T18:53:50Z mangol: i didn't know that R7RS is designed to be subsetted
2021-02-04T18:53:55Z mangol: in a formal sense
2021-02-04T18:54:51Z amirouche needs food.
2021-02-04T18:55:22Z Zipheir: Well, not formally, but jcowan has encouraged the idea several times in my memory.
2021-02-04T18:55:27Z mangol: if all the libraries in R7RS-large are optional, that solves part of the problem.
2021-02-04T18:56:04Z mangol: the other part is that a standard vitally needs 1) backward compatibility and 2) a realistic deadline, or at least convincing momentum toward completion
2021-02-04T18:57:01Z mangol: point 2) implies a convincing scope that makes sense given wishes coming from the community (not from inside the standards committee) and available manpower
2021-02-04T18:57:07Z jcowan: The easiest way for two tribes to unite is for one to slaughter the other (and kill all the males and pregnant females and reduce the remaining females to sexual slavery).
2021-02-04T18:57:28Z Zipheir: o_O
2021-02-04T18:57:49Z jcowan: All the libs in R7RS-small are optional except base, but AFAIK there is no Scheme that claims conformance yet provides only some of them.
2021-02-04T18:58:05Z gwatt: woah there cowan the barbarian
2021-02-04T18:58:13Z Zipheir: lol
2021-02-04T18:58:23Z mangol: lol
2021-02-04T18:58:45Z jcowan: /slaughter/s/and/or
2021-02-04T18:58:47Z Zipheir: mangol: (1) requires adopting the R6RS operational semantics and bringing them into line with R7.
2021-02-04T18:59:53Z mangol: Zipheir: i'm not well versed in the finer points, but compatibility of useful code is good enough. i'm under the impression that R6 is quite strict
2021-02-04T19:00:03Z Zipheir: IMO this would be a Good Thing, but I don't know of anyone who's planning to do it.  (I'm going to have to learn a bit more before I volunteer, and I'd probably ask Oleg for help.)
2021-02-04T19:00:50Z mangol: i'm extremely happy if even one person is signing up to try and unite R6RS and R7RS
2021-02-04T19:01:21Z mangol: but ideally we'd get a few of the people who know both stanrdards. someone like Oleg would be awesome to have
2021-02-04T19:01:22Z jcowan: It's my view that the very low upgrade rate to R6 is a result of its strictness.  Most R6 systems are either newly created or are associated with members of the R6 editorial committee.
2021-02-04T19:02:01Z mangol: jcowan: now we're talking! so if new RnRS can be compatible with R6RS programs, but be more lax about the semantics as required, we have something good
2021-02-04T19:02:03Z jcowan: The reason Larceny works is that it's a non-strict implementation of R6RS.
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2021-02-04T19:02:54Z mangol: that seems perfectly fine
2021-02-04T19:03:14Z gwatt: jcowan: I think guile also qualifies as that
2021-02-04T19:03:29Z jcowan: Indeed.
2021-02-04T19:03:53Z mangol: maybe even strictness levels can be optional to some degree. i have no idea whether that would work, or be worth the effort.
2021-02-04T19:04:22Z jcowan: Note in particular Clinger's discussion (in the same paper) of portability vs. interoperability
2021-02-04T19:04:30Z mangol: if we want to unite R6RS and R7RS-small, that already requires that lax error handling be a permitted implementation strategy.
2021-02-04T19:04:58Z gwatt: IIRC, guile takes the view that strictly conforming R6RS code will work as expected, but that non-conforming code may not.
2021-02-04T19:05:35Z gwatt: ("may not work as expected" meaning they are free to do whatever they want, not throw the specific condition that R6RS mandates)
2021-02-04T19:06:05Z jcowan: "Portability and interoperability are two different things, and often come into conflict with each other. When programming languages are specified, portability can be increased (and interoperability diminished) by inventing some specific semantics for all corner cases while forbidding extensions to standard syntax and procedures. Interoperability can be increased (and portability diminished) by leaving unimportant corner
2021-02-04T19:06:06Z jcowan: cases unspecified while allowing implementations to generalize syntax and semantics in ways that simplify interoperation with other standards and components."
2021-02-04T19:06:31Z jcowan: Larceny is weaker than Guile in that respect
2021-02-04T19:08:42Z mangol: jcowan: would you agree that combining R6RS + R7RS can lead to a technically reasonable standard as long as there's social agreement to get it done?
2021-02-04T19:09:02Z jcowan: Do you mean R7RS-small?
2021-02-04T19:09:32Z mangol: yes, so far. the reason being that R5RS + R6RS + R7RS-small are the standards that are set in stone, whereas R7RS-large is still open
2021-02-04T19:10:19Z jcowan: In particular Larceny does not always raise the R6RSly correct exception, and sometimes does not raise one at all.
2021-02-04T19:10:27Z mangol: though since scheme implementations have not standardized on syntax-case, it would be very interesting to add things like explicit renaming
2021-02-04T19:10:48Z mangol: as options for a macro system
2021-02-04T19:10:48Z ecraven: I think macro systems are on the list for R7RS-large
2021-02-04T19:10:54Z mangol: ecraven: yes, they are
2021-02-04T19:11:09Z mangol: ecraven: keyword arguments are or were also in serious consideration
2021-02-04T19:11:20Z jcowan: They are.  The votes will be for syntax-case and ER separately, so that the standard may end up with either or both or neither.
2021-02-04T19:11:25Z mangol: and some other syntax/macro system things
2021-02-04T19:11:44Z mangol: RnRS is definitely the right vehicle for that kind of thing that is so close to the language core
2021-02-04T19:11:57Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/ColorDockets.md
2021-02-04T19:12:53Z jcowan: The reason for adding portable libraries to R7RS-large, and beginning with them, is to build confidence in the process and to provide something that people can use right away even before implementers adopt it.
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2021-02-04T19:19:47Z ecraven: why is there a ".0" in +nan.0?
2021-02-04T19:20:08Z jcowan: Makes it look more inexact, I guess.
2021-02-04T19:22:06Z jcowan: The sign is required because nan.0 would be a valid identifier whereas (per R6RS) +nan.0 is not.  -nan.0 is also supported, but does not necessarily imply the sign bit is different.
2021-02-04T19:23:09Z mangol: jcowan: while portable libraries are great to have, i worry about putting many of them in RnRS because i believe design should start from the assumption that R(n+1)RS supports everything in RnRS
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2021-02-04T19:28:41Z jcowan: When I was first appointed chair of the R7RS-large WG, the Steering Committee asked me to write a charter, and that was one of the things I provided in it: backward compatibility with R6.  However, they immediately shot that down, instructing me not to be bound by R6 but only to make sure that I considered it.
2021-02-04T19:29:00Z mangol: whoa
2021-02-04T19:29:11Z mangol: that's a very strong stance from the steering committee
2021-02-04T19:29:12Z jcowan: The R7 process began, after all, because a bunch of Scheme elders thought that R6 was a Great Big Mistake.
2021-02-04T19:30:20Z Zipheir: And, presumably, the R6 authors consider R7 a Great Big Mistake.
2021-02-04T19:30:24Z mangol: so does that mean we need to sneak R6RS compatibility past them or can we go ahead and do it out in the open? :D i'm a horrible person
2021-02-04T19:30:33Z ecraven: when nan-boxing, does it matter whether I use signalling or quiet nans?
2021-02-04T19:32:17Z mangol: joking aside, did the steering committee consider the option that the R6RS features can be parcelled out into options that don't need to be implemented?
2021-02-04T19:33:32Z mangol: because it's hard to imagine that the community of present and future scheme users wouldn't be greatly helped by a high degree of compatibility in the full-featured scheme implementations
2021-02-04T19:35:13Z Zipheir: I'd rather just have R7RS compatibility layers in the existing non-R7 Schemes. Less work.
2021-02-04T19:35:17Z jcowan: There's actually quite a lot of compat: see the list of changes in the back of R7
2021-02-04T19:35:32Z jcowan: ecraven: I recommend signaling NaNs.
2021-02-04T19:35:42Z mangol: yes, there is. and that makes it all the more appealing to go the extra mile to full compat
2021-02-04T19:36:27Z mangol: the social and information-flow split is probably a bigger issue than the technical split
2021-02-04T19:37:42Z mangol: Zipheir: please take a look at https://github.com/okuoku/yuni which is close to what you want
2021-02-04T19:37:45Z ecraven: jcowan: why? just so I notice if they actually hit the "FPU" (whatever that's called nowadays ;)
2021-02-04T19:38:02Z ecraven: jcowan: did you get around to working on your nan-boxing implementation?
2021-02-04T19:38:09Z mangol: yuni is also a good demonstration that having full compat on the RnRS and Scheme implementation level would make interop easier
2021-02-04T19:39:23Z mario-goulart: The way r6rs was approved always looked a bit iffy to me.  A lot of "yes" votes without justification (even this one http://www.r6rs.org/ratification/results.html#X4 ) or weak arguments, and a lot of "no" votes from experienced Scheme implementors with solid arguments.
2021-02-04T19:40:47Z jcowan: R6 SC: Bawden, Steele, Wand.  R6 Editors: Clinger [removed himself], Dybvig, Flatt, Sperber, van Straaten.  R7 SC: Clinger, Feeley, Hanson, Rees, Shivers.  R7-small editors: Shinn, Cowan, Gleckler.  You'll notice the lack of overlap.
2021-02-04T19:42:02Z jcowan: That's why I was absolutely determined to do R7 entirely in the open.  Anyone who wanted to keep track, could.  Some people were scared off by the original flood of messages, and others realized that they weren't going to get anything as radical as they wanted and walked out.
2021-02-04T19:44:07Z mangol: it seems that you made exactly the right call on both counts (open and conservative approach)
2021-02-04T19:45:44Z gwatt: mario-goulart: IIRC the SC wanted justifcations for NO votes, so you're going to see more YES votes with little to no explanation. If every vote required justification you'd probably see more interesting responses.
2021-02-04T19:47:34Z mario-goulart: That's already a sign of impartiality, IMO.
2021-02-04T19:48:11Z mangol: was it surprising or expected that R6RS implementations haven't gone anywhere, and still have many users?
2021-02-04T19:52:39Z Zipheir: "You don't need to explain if you agree with us, only if you disagree."  Umm...
2021-02-04T19:52:58Z Zipheir: Sounds like a great way to establish groupthink.
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2021-02-04T19:56:27Z gwatt: I think it makes sense though. Pieces went through individual consideration and discussion. You can look at the srfi site to see some of them.
2021-02-04T19:56:43Z gwatt: Here's the srfi for r6rs' library syntax: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-83/srfi-83.html
2021-02-04T19:57:06Z mario-goulart: s/impartiality/partiality/ (dumb mistake)
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2021-02-04T19:59:23Z jcowan: mangol: Not surprising to me.  What *is* surprising is that there has been so much adoption of R7RS-small.
2021-02-04T20:00:42Z jcowan: The logic of asking for explanations on No votes only is that No voters probably want something to change, where as Yes voters more or less by definition do not.  In R7-small we asked for but did not require explanations from every voter.
2021-02-04T20:03:46Z Zipheir: Yeah, that makes sense.
2021-02-04T20:07:52Z jcowan: ecraven: No, but because when what you are doing, like (fxsqrt -1), wants to return a NaN, it will return a quiet NaN in practice.  So using only signaling NaNs, of which there are more than enough, guarantees that there is no problem even on a processor that returns different NaNs for different fails.
2021-02-04T20:12:28Z jcowan: When implementing a Scheme you want to favor pointers rather than doubles, so a pointer has high bits 0 and a double doesn't, but you have to add or subtract a constant to convert between a machine double and an immediate double.
2021-02-04T20:14:00Z jcowan: "Pointer" of course includes fixnums, chars, true/false/eof/undef, and (if you want them) 32-bit immediate floats on 64-bit systems.
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2021-02-04T20:15:11Z jcowan: See https://wingolog.org/archives/2011/05/18/value-representation-in-javascript-implementations up through comment #9
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2021-02-04T20:22:10Z Riastradh: ecraven: (flo:nan-payload +nan.123)
2021-02-04T20:22:10Z Riastradh: ;Value: 123
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2021-02-04T20:23:36Z ecraven: nice! thanks
2021-02-04T20:24:00Z ecraven: what kinds of NaNs does normal floating-point usage produce?
2021-02-04T20:26:52Z ecraven: 32 bit immediate floats would be useful for opengl code, for example
2021-02-04T20:27:36Z ecraven: Riastradh: weren't you thinking about trying something with nan-boxing for MIT/GNU Scheme?
2021-02-04T20:27:44Z ecraven: (a year or two ago, I think?)
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2021-02-04T20:35:02Z jcowan: ecraven: Two cases: "there is no such real number", as with (sqrt -1.0), and "any real number is possible", as in (/ 0.0 0.0)
2021-02-04T20:35:07Z jcowan: s/sqrt/fxsqrt
2021-02-04T20:35:37Z ecraven: but which exact NaN payload will be generated? or is that undefined?
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2021-02-04T20:52:26Z mangol: jcowan: to get clear on the most important point, what do you think are the prospects of getting optional R6RS compatibility into R7RS-large so that most practical code using things like (library ...) and (syntax-case) runs unmodified?
2021-02-04T20:52:44Z mangol: and the general principle of factoring the language into optional libraries
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2021-02-04T20:53:42Z jcowan: It's already factored into optional libraries, and there is no reason not to add the r6rs libs *other than base*.
2021-02-04T20:54:01Z mangol: does the steering committee think it's heretical to add R6RS base?
2021-02-04T20:54:30Z jcowan: No, it's just that you can't have two libs without those -r6/-r7 switches.
2021-02-04T20:54:35Z jcowan: s/libs/base libs
2021-02-04T20:54:49Z mangol: what's the incompatibility?
2021-02-04T20:55:07Z jcowan: You'd have to go through item by item to find out.
2021-02-04T20:55:40Z mangol: the implementation can't detect "#!r6rs" or (import (rnrs (6))) and adjust accordingly?
2021-02-04T20:55:40Z gwatt: in library or program forms, wouldn't you have to explicitly import which libraries you want?
2021-02-04T20:56:20Z jcowan: Oh sure.  But then there is no need to have a unified *standard*, it suffices to have implementations like Larceny or Sagittarius that provide both.
2021-02-04T20:56:21Z gwatt: Also, since the library definition forms are different you could key off (library ...) vs. (define-library ...)
2021-02-04T20:56:45Z mangol: gwatt: yes. and even library source files can start with #!r6rs
2021-02-04T20:57:38Z mangol: i can't remember whether #!r6rs is supposed to affect the read syntax only. but again, no need for a new RnRS to pedantically copy every detail of R6RS semantics
2021-02-04T20:57:57Z jcowan: If not, then the main objective of R6RS, which is portability, is shot.
2021-02-04T20:58:04Z jcowan: (Arguably it's shot anyhow.)
2021-02-04T20:58:23Z jcowan: These things are what Larceny already does.
2021-02-04T20:58:23Z mangol: +1 on "it's shot anyhow"
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2021-02-04T20:59:16Z mangol: and people who really care about this flavor of portability can still run their code on existing R6RS implementations that take it the most seriously
2021-02-04T20:59:23Z jcowan: CL implementations have had a very long period of coevolutiom, plus a bigger standard to start with.
2021-02-04T20:59:59Z jcowan: Then what do you think the actual benefit of a united standard is, given that most implementations won't support it?  It seems like a solution in search of a problem.
2021-02-04T21:00:32Z mangol: in what sense do you mean they won't support it?
2021-02-04T21:02:27Z jcowan: Chibi helped launch R7 because it was a day-0 implementation and it was small enough that it wasn't hard to make an R7, hence we have lots.
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2021-02-04T21:04:04Z jcowan: There was a similar but smaller explosion of R6 impls, but the only ones with substantial mindshare now are the pre-existing Racket, Chez, and Guile.  Larceny is also pre-existing.
2021-02-04T21:05:10Z jcowan: Iron and Loko are potentially long-term niche players
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2021-02-04T21:08:53Z mangol: can't RnRS fill in the gaps so people can write source files in R6RS or R7RS style, and pass them to the same Scheme implementations without worrying about command line flags and other stuff
2021-02-04T21:09:55Z gwatt: jcowan: schism is also potentially r6rs: https://github.com/google/schism
2021-02-04T21:09:56Z mangol: i don't understand where the hard parts are (other than strict interpretation of R6RS semantics, which all potential R6RS/R7RS uniters seem to agree is a requirement that can be relaxed)
2021-02-04T21:11:02Z jcowan: Conditions are the most obviously problematic thing, because R6 conditions are tightly integrated into R6 records, which is not the case for non-R6 conditions.
2021-02-04T21:11:34Z mangol: has someone investigated that problem in detail?
2021-02-04T21:11:56Z gwatt: mangol: syntax-case is also controversial
2021-02-04T21:12:16Z mangol: gwatt: it is indeed, but it seems to be pretty well isolated from the rest of the language
2021-02-04T21:12:38Z jcowan: I know that Guile once had two separate exception systems, native and R6.  Now both have the same underpinnings so that you can throw with R6 and catch with native or vice versa, but there are still two separate condition hierarchies.
2021-02-04T21:12:44Z mangol: and lots of practical R6RS libraries don't depend on syntax-case
2021-02-04T21:13:08Z mangol: so you still could run all that R6 code on combined implementations that omit syntax-case
2021-02-04T21:14:02Z jcowan: The R6-specific I/O system is also an issue.
2021-02-04T21:14:33Z jcowan: it encapsulates the R5 system but is not well integrated with it.  I'm trying to avoid that problem in R7.
2021-02-04T21:15:30Z jcowan: I would say there are no non-R6 condition systems that are exapted to have R6 running on top of them.
2021-02-04T21:15:30Z mangol: I/O system = text and binary ports, custom ports, transcoders?
2021-02-04T21:15:59Z jcowan: Yes.  I have as much as possible abstracted that into SRFIs (text vs. binary is already in r7)
2021-02-04T21:16:26Z jcowan: but whether it will be voted into r7 is an open question.
2021-02-04T21:17:28Z ecraven: not sure about transcoders, but custom ports are definitely something I'd want
2021-02-04T21:19:13Z mangol: does the interop problem with R6/R7 conditions boil down to R7 being able to throw any object, whereas R6 can only catch condition objects?
2021-02-04T21:23:39Z mangol: nope, R6RS allows non-condition objects to be raised
2021-02-04T21:31:46Z mangol: are these the I/O system SRFIs: SRFI 181 (Custom ports), SRFI 186 (Transcoders and transcoded ports), SRFI 192 (Port Positioning)
2021-02-04T21:32:36Z jcowan: Yes.
2021-02-04T21:33:25Z jcowan: No, the issues are that all standard conditions are records with a specified single-inheritance hierarchy, which is not the case in other systems, and even if it is, the hierarchy is often different.
2021-02-04T21:33:40Z jcowan: And that specified fields are available.
2021-02-04T21:38:03Z jcowan: Actually the second point is not much of a problem.
2021-02-04T21:39:37Z mangol: (looking at r6rs-lib.pdf page 28) e.g. &violation is a subtype of &serious, which is a subtype of &condition
2021-02-04T21:41:14Z mangol: the way to test for a &violation object is to call (violation? foo)
2021-02-04T21:41:53Z mangol: but section 6.4 gives record inspection procedures which presumably should also tell that foo is a &violation and also a &serious &condition
2021-02-04T21:43:27Z Riastradh: ecraven: In theory the hardware can use the bits of the NaN for retrospective diagnostic information; in practice, I don't know any offhand that do, so the distinction is mostly quiet vs signalling.
2021-02-04T21:43:55Z mangol: if foo is some kind of R7RS-implementation-defined object that satisfies `violation?` but doesn't show the right stuff to record inspection, i can see how it's a R6RS-R7RS compatibility problem in esoteric cases
2021-02-04T21:44:09Z Riastradh: ecraven: I thought about doing nanboxing for MIT Scheme but I didn't do it (although I did rework the amd64 ABI to be less bad).
2021-02-04T21:44:39Z Riastradh: I think the effort would be better spent on SIMD operations.
2021-02-04T21:45:41Z Riastradh: (also apparently effort is needed to avoid W|X in the MIT Scheme heap -- shoulda been done a long time ago but never had the round tuits)
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2021-02-04T21:55:21Z jcowan: Or to divide the heap into W or X, I suppose
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2021-02-04T22:13:11Z mangol: jcowan: do you suppose we could try to work out the compatibility problems by writing SRFIs about one part of it at a time, as you've done for ports?
2021-02-04T22:13:32Z mangol: maybe with more than one SRFI for one part in some cases to compare alternative approaches
2021-02-04T22:14:19Z mangol: that would be a low friction way to start since the SRFI process is already set up for that kind of thing
2021-02-04T22:15:27Z jcowan: Sure, why not.
2021-02-04T22:15:28Z mangol: if some SRFI seems promising at the inital draft phase but turns out to have irredeemable problems, it can be withdrawn, as SRFI 177 was. not much of a loss.
2021-02-04T22:15:46Z mangol: i'm very glad that we spent the time on 177 even though it was withdrawn. learned a lot.
2021-02-04T22:16:13Z jcowan: In some cases, like hashtables, SRFI 125 gives you everything modulo the names, which are trivial to fix
2021-02-04T22:16:44Z mangol: yeah if it's only about names that can always be fixed by exporting two sets of names. not a big deal if compatibility is gaied.
2021-02-04T22:16:47Z mangol: gained
2021-02-04T22:17:08Z mangol: semantic incompatibility is the big deal
2021-02-04T22:17:18Z mangol: where that is tricky to fix
2021-02-04T22:21:52Z Riastradh: jcowan: Yes, obviously that's what we need to do; but, devils, details, &c.
2021-02-04T22:23:03Z jcowan: There's also the irritating issue of bytevector-copy!, where I think (and Larceny agrees) the R7RS order is the Right Thing.  There are some other cases like `error` where renaming isn't enough, but it's possible to have a single procedure that provides both calling conventions.
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2021-02-04T23:03:11Z jcowan: mangol: I recommending working through http://larcenists.org/Documentation/Documentation0.99/user-manual.pdf pp. 5-31, which tells you exactly how Larceny integrates R6 and R7-small.
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2021-02-04T23:30:18Z duncanm: jcowan: do you know if Will Clinger responds to e-mails? I wrote him awhile back but didn't hear back
2021-02-04T23:30:35Z duncanm: I was hoping to get a copy of MacScheme  + Toolsmith
2021-02-04T23:30:39Z jcowan: He has retired, so responses may be slow
2021-02-04T23:38:55Z jcowan: mangol: There are also some useful Larceny wiki pages: https://github.com/larcenists/larceny/wiki/ConformanceModes, DeprecatedR6RSSyntaxAndProcedures, DeprecatedR7RSSyntaxAndProcedures, R7RSconversion, RecordsConversion.
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2021-02-05T01:03:41Z mdhughes: Yikes, y'all had a few days of conversation while I was out.
2021-02-05T01:04:59Z mdhughes: My main concerns with R7RS are: 1) The "spec" is too permissive, so in practice it introduces random bugs when you try to port. R6RS I can pretty much guarantee does what the damn spec says.
2021-02-05T01:05:38Z mdhughes: 2) Random changes in terminology. library, hashtable, etc. didn't need to be changed. That's just producers pissing in the soup so it tastes familiar.
2021-02-05T01:06:54Z mdhughes: 3) R7 doesn't define useful macro systems. We have useful macro systems. Copy those over, be done with it.
2021-02-05T01:08:03Z mdhughes: 4) Enormous amount of wasted duplicate effort instead of making new, useful libraries. Someday we'll get a POSIX system? We could have that NOW.
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2021-02-05T02:00:24Z jcowan: Those plus the user manual plus the R7RS Considered paper pretty much should serve as guidelines for what would be needed to make R6+R7RS
2021-02-05T02:02:28Z jcowan: Portability between implementations was the main concern of the R6RS editors, but in practice that now means you can write code that ports to Chez, Racket, and Guile (although code written *for* Chez, Racket, or Guile will not port to the other two)
2021-02-05T02:03:38Z jcowan: 2) A lot of the differences between R6 and R7 are reverting to what existing R5 implementations did that were randomly changed by R6.
2021-02-05T02:04:11Z jcowan: 3) R7 didn't do low-level macros because there are too many incompatible low-level macro systems.  (Syntax-rules is not useless.)
2021-02-05T02:04:20Z jcowan: 4) Politics is the art of the possible.
2021-02-05T02:04:21Z jcowan: mdhughes: ^^
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2021-02-05T02:41:36Z aeth: 0) Nobody will need portable code ever again when they can just run it in Airship Scheme when Airship Scheme is ready.
2021-02-05T02:41:39Z aeth: :-p
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2021-02-05T03:02:53Z mdhughes: "code that only ports to" three of the highest-quality impls on the most platforms.
2021-02-05T03:03:08Z mdhughes: Oh, what have the Romans ever given us?
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2021-02-05T03:33:33Z Zipheir: With an R7 compatibility layer for those three we'd get a lot more portability.
2021-02-05T03:34:02Z Zipheir: Guile and Racket already have some R7 support; probably not Chez, I'm guessing.
2021-02-05T03:34:58Z Zipheir: Since Chez and Gambit are reputedly the fast ones, R7 layers for those would be a worthwhile project.
2021-02-05T03:38:18Z Zipheir: ("the fast ones" among all Schemes, not just R6 Schemes.  My thoughts wandered on.)
2021-02-05T03:40:15Z aeth: the fast ones?
2021-02-05T03:40:43Z aeth: maybe, but there's only one benchmark set afaik
2021-02-05T03:49:30Z Zipheir: Given that Chez is being used as a backend for Idris and, now, Racket, it seems some people think it's fast.
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2021-02-05T04:23:11Z jcowan: "Three things: our language, our law, and our will!"
2021-02-05T04:24:37Z mdhughes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ
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2021-02-05T04:47:50Z dieggsy: let's rewrite chicken over gambit
2021-02-05T04:47:57Z dieggsy: (i'm joking, that's a joke.)
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2021-02-05T04:55:59Z mdhughes: No, no, rewrite Chibi over Gambit, because Chibi's preposterously slow.
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2021-02-05T05:00:10Z dieggsy: mdhughes: lol, but chibi is aiming for something different than speed right? i've not really used it at all
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2021-02-05T05:01:22Z mdhughes: I get the impression from jcowan's use of it that it's a spec flagship. But if so, it really needs someone competent to look at the internals and make it usable.
2021-02-05T05:01:42Z jcowan: Usable for what exactly?
2021-02-05T05:01:51Z mdhughes: As a Scheme. For programming.
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2021-02-05T05:02:22Z mdhughes: That is, I dunno if everyone's aware, the point of most programming languages. To solve problems.
2021-02-05T05:03:01Z Zipheir: Does chibi not ... compute?
2021-02-05T05:03:25Z mdhughes: Obviously there's joke languages, and teaching languages that only exist as transforms of some other lang, but generally: If I write a program, will I get results before the expansion of the Sun makes it irrelevant?
2021-02-05T05:04:44Z Zipheir: It depends entirely on the program, in any language.  That's far too general.
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2021-02-05T05:06:21Z mdhughes: On https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/ Chibi's middle of the slow Schemes
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2021-02-05T05:07:16Z dieggsy: it also depends on the use case no? it may have other desirable features? again, i don't know chibi
2021-02-05T05:07:53Z mdhughes: Other than standards, not really. It eats memory like popcorn.
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2021-02-05T05:09:02Z dieggsy: i think a lot of chicken's code is inspired by or taken from chibi like irregex
2021-02-05T05:09:03Z mdhughes: Like, I have and will again use tinyscheme as an embedded scripting language, because while it's slow (maybe not as slow as Chibi? Maybe.), it uses a tiny, fixed amount of RAM which is useful.
2021-02-05T05:09:16Z dieggsy: er, not a lot, a few key packages/modules here and there
2021-02-05T05:09:46Z dieggsy: so it seems there's at least useful stuff implemented in the language?
2021-02-05T05:09:50Z mdhughes: Then it's a prime candidate then for rewriting the back end to be usable.
2021-02-05T05:11:20Z dieggsy: wow: "TinyScheme was used as the core of Direct Revenue's adware, making it the world's most widely distributed Scheme runtime" lol
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2021-02-05T05:12:03Z mdhughes: Yeah, quite annoying. And I don't like GIMP much either, but at the time it was a great scripted images solution.
2021-02-05T05:12:55Z Zipheir: IIUC chibi's main goal is Lua-style embedding.
2021-02-05T05:13:15Z Zipheir: And space efficiency, apparently.
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2021-02-05T05:16:15Z Zipheir: GIMP's TinyScheme scripting is still very useful, although the embedding is awful and they're slowly moving to Python-only, I think.
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2021-02-05T07:32:29Z mangol: jcowan: thank you very much for the links! i'll peruse them
2021-02-05T07:33:13Z mangol: the above discussion shows why each RnRS should be backward-compatible with all the previous ones that people are still using,
2021-02-05T07:33:31Z mangol: and why RnRS should ship all the popular macro systems as options
2021-02-05T07:34:02Z mangol: because we can never get people to agree on which RnRS or macro system should win
2021-02-05T07:34:04Z ecraven: I know I'm partly responsible for the benchmarks, but not everything needs to be fast.. sometimes, it's at least as important to have other features...
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2021-02-05T07:34:51Z ecraven: unfortunately, I haven't taken the time to do an analysis of those "other features" for each Scheme
2021-02-05T07:39:12Z mangol: yeah. one of scheme's main strengths is the variety of implementations. there's one for almost any use case you can think of.
2021-02-05T07:39:39Z ecraven: for example, it may be nice that chez is one of the fastest, but it does not (currently) run on aarch64 natively...
2021-02-05T07:40:03Z ecraven: chibi may be slower than guile, but guile definitely is several orders of magnitude *larger*
2021-02-05T07:40:49Z ecraven: last time I tested it, chibi was about half as fast as lua for some simple graphics code, mostly calling out to C, so that might be fast enough for integration in a game engine, for example
2021-02-05T07:41:51Z mangol: just so. but pointing out subtle distinctions like "sometimes portable or easy-to-embed is more important than being fastest" is not conducive to tribalizing on an IRC channel :p
2021-02-05T07:42:11Z ecraven: I'm not saying *more important*, just saying there are *other* measures but speed
2021-02-05T07:42:31Z ecraven: unfortunately I only have the benchmarks page to point to at the moment, but I've been planning to measure *other* things for a long time
2021-02-05T07:42:56Z ecraven: for example, maximum memory usage for the benchmark runs should really be there. startup time, compile time, things like that
2021-02-05T07:43:02Z mangol: good point
2021-02-05T07:43:14Z ecraven: stalin's *code* may be fast, but the time waiting for it to compile sure seems longest of all the implementations
2021-02-05T07:43:44Z ecraven: and then, after all that, there's a *huge* difference in the available REPLs and support for interactive development
2021-02-05T07:43:53Z ecraven: for example, chez
2021-02-05T07:44:09Z ecraven: "compiles away" everything not exported from a library, so you cannot even introspect those procedures and values
2021-02-05T07:44:30Z ecraven: MIT/GNU gives you way more access and possibilities to work with code.
2021-02-05T07:44:37Z mangol: precisely. programming language advocates seem to no longer grasp of the concept of "fast enough for the job"
2021-02-05T07:44:59Z mangol: or "enough features for the job"
2021-02-05T07:45:17Z ecraven: thus my wish for the possibility to *develop* on a Scheme that supports debugging and developping, and then *running* your code on some other (compatible!) Scheme that optimises more
2021-02-05T07:46:01Z mangol: that's what RnRS ideally accomplishes :)
2021-02-05T07:46:05Z ecraven: of course it would be nice to have the fastest and the most developer-friendly Scheme implementation be the same one, but I've come to doubt that is possible (unless one implementation wants to support two different "sub-implementations")
2021-02-05T07:46:09Z ecraven: ideally ;)
2021-02-05T07:47:26Z mangol: the reason RnRS doesn't entirely accomplish (the core language part of) that job, seems to be the same reason that leads to implementation wars (mostly among people who aren't core developers of these implementations, interestingly; the devs are quite chill and amicable nowadays)
2021-02-05T07:48:41Z mangol: namely. a schemer really likes his favorite implementations or RnRS edition, and when someone points out some advantage of another one, they go "i once looked at that thing and it obviously sucked and i don't understand why anyone would want it over my choice that is obviously superior in every way, which i can prove with math"
2021-02-05T07:50:58Z mangol: then the advocate of another RnRS or implementation goes "no, _his_ choice sucks, and his math is wrong!"
2021-02-05T07:51:18Z mangol: that goes on for a while, then everyone gets tired of the discussion and no-one writes any code or specs :D
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2021-02-05T08:13:10Z mangol: Zipheir: Racket is based on Chez mainly for maintainability reasons. Chez is very fast too, but not as much faster than the old Racket as you might think.
2021-02-05T08:14:07Z mangol: Zipheir: the compatibility shims you suggest so R7RS implementations can load R6RS code (or vice versa) are a good idea, but would really benefit from tighter integration between R6RS and R7RS styles in the spec itself
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2021-02-05T08:23:17Z mdhughes: Chez doesn't "compile away" code that's used by anything, but obviously it doesn't let you break library encapsulation, because that would be terrible!
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2021-02-05T08:41:24Z ecraven: mdhughes: have you ever used the repl for CL development? you can do magical things
2021-02-05T08:42:40Z mdhughes: I don't want to be digging in a library's guts unless I'm writing it. magic screwing around with stuff I don't need to is less fun than writing my code.
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2021-02-05T08:54:54Z ecraven: mdhughes: that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm just saying that sometimes it can be very useful if your implementation allows you to do that kind of thing. and most of the time I'm developing *some* library..
2021-02-05T08:55:41Z mdhughes: If I need access to internals in dev, I'll just export those, and remove the exports later.
2021-02-05T08:56:40Z ecraven: how is that easier than just being able to directly "enter" the library and do stuff there?
2021-02-05T08:56:50Z ecraven: I'm not saying *every* implementation should support this, just that this is something valuable to development
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2021-02-05T08:59:41Z ecraven: also, "just export" means you have to restart the entire program, and you may need to "just export" several levels deep
2021-02-05T09:00:55Z mdhughes: Sure, but this is Chez, where restarts are almost instant, not CHICKEN where I can go get a cup of coffee, bathroom break, possibly a nap, and it'll be done compiling. Only trouble is if I've written a lot of REPL state, I have to pull it out of chezhistory first.
2021-02-05T09:02:34Z mdhughes: The other thing is, you can keep your library outer and inner in 2 files, and then (load "lib-inner.ss")
2021-02-05T09:02:58Z ecraven: and again, this does only work for libraries you directly use, not indirectly
2021-02-05T09:02:59Z mdhughes: I don't generally do that, because fuck .h files, but it works if you're in there all the time.
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2021-02-05T09:04:00Z mdhughes: Anyway, that's an "angels dancing on pinheads" level problem to me. The Chez REPL having a real editor instead of readline-clone like almost everyone else, is the big win.
2021-02-05T09:07:19Z ecraven: hehe, now that's something I totally don't care about, as I use slime/swank to interact with it. that's better than any other repl I know
2021-02-05T09:07:52Z mangol: what is the point of these "one true way" proclamations?
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2021-02-05T09:08:55Z ecraven: did
2021-02-05T09:09:01Z ecraven: did I proclaim "one true way"?
2021-02-05T09:10:06Z mangol: ecraven: no, mdhughes did. you struggled valiantly to convince him that the world isn't black-and-white, but to no avail :)
2021-02-05T09:10:32Z mdhughes: When did I say it was a one true way?
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2021-02-05T09:11:02Z mdhughes: Just that I have no use for hacking on library internals.
2021-02-05T09:11:03Z mangol: maybe it just sounds like that. sorry if i misinterpreted your tone.
2021-02-05T09:11:11Z mangol: well, other people have a use for it
2021-02-05T09:11:42Z mdhughes: Maybe. And they have less strict impls they can do that on.
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2021-02-05T09:12:29Z mdhughes: ecraven wants the world to be emacs. Which I would never.
2021-02-05T09:12:56Z mdhughes: Do you even know which editor I use?
2021-02-05T09:13:26Z siraben: lemme guess, ed :P
2021-02-05T09:13:47Z siraben is a big fan of Emacs
2021-02-05T09:14:13Z mdhughes: Well, sometimes. But that's more a fediverse "real name" joke.
2021-02-05T09:20:06Z ecraven: to be fair, I also like edwin or the various CL emacs clones, it's just that Emacs is the one with the most users and most libraries
2021-02-05T09:21:44Z mangol: there's an Emacs Lisp port to Edwin, but it's probably from the nineties. not sure useful it is for running new elisp packages.
2021-02-05T09:22:08Z mangol: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EdWin
2021-02-05T09:22:30Z ecraven: my main gripe with edwin is lacking colour support. I can live fine with only one font, but black and white only, that's giving me a hard time
2021-02-05T09:22:59Z ecraven: I did write a patch for colors once, but it was mostly a hack, and it wouldn't help much without pervasive support in all the rest of edwin
2021-02-05T09:28:47Z mangol: MIT Scheme is still actively developed so they may be amenable to adding color support
2021-02-05T09:30:43Z mangol: Kawa also has JEmacs, can't remember whether it's in the default Kawa build or not. much of it is written in Java i think
2021-02-05T09:41:10Z mdhughes: "We got both kinds of editors in this bar, emacs and other emacs!"
2021-02-05T09:43:37Z mangol: :D
2021-02-05T09:44:04Z mangol: it's not my intent to diss non-emacs editors, and hopefully not ecraven's either. did he say something to that effect?
2021-02-05T09:44:33Z mangol: are backend protocols like swank inextricably tied to emacs?
2021-02-05T09:44:45Z ecraven: no, there is a slime for vi
2021-02-05T09:44:48Z ecraven: well, vim
2021-02-05T09:45:04Z ecraven: however, swank is explicitly a protocol for CL, so it doesn't fit Scheme perfectly
2021-02-05T09:45:21Z ecraven: however, replicating all the frontend SLIME code (which geiser is valiantly working on) is a *lot* of work
2021-02-05T09:45:57Z ecraven: ideally, we would come up with a good backend (not sure whether LSP can do everything that swank can do now), and then implement several good frontends
2021-02-05T09:46:01Z ecraven: but... time ;)
2021-02-05T09:47:37Z mangol: yeah, a good editor-neutral backend supporting all scheme features would be an awesome project
2021-02-05T09:48:33Z ecraven: I've been trying with r7rs-swank, the protocol is swank, but the features (completion, evaluation, etc.) are useful in general. at least it's a start, which shows how to achieve this for at least a few Schemes
2021-02-05T09:48:51Z mangol: ideally something where the scheme implementation can tell the editor "this REPL is now in a debugger N levels deep", "these here are eval frames" instead of having to parse text to infer that stuff
2021-02-05T09:51:16Z ecraven: all the ones I've done use internal procedures of the various schemes, no text parsing
2021-02-05T09:51:49Z mangol: excellent
2021-02-05T09:52:08Z ecraven: however, not all schemes support as much introspection as one would like ;)
2021-02-05T09:53:10Z mangol: did you contact the authors of the actively maintained ones about adding introspection?
2021-02-05T09:53:23Z mangol: or are all the non-introspection-supporting schemes the unmaintained ones
2021-02-05T09:53:40Z ecraven: only a few
2021-02-05T09:54:25Z ecraven: for example, due to chez's aggressive compiler, you "lose" a lot of information. in general, due to TCO, it is hard to reconstruct a full backtrace
2021-02-05T09:55:18Z mangol: right. that seems like an unavoidable tradeoff
2021-02-05T09:55:41Z ecraven: it should be possible, with explicit support, to fix this, but that's a lot of work for an implementation for only a gain in debugging
2021-02-05T09:56:39Z mangol: i noticed something weird when switching to scheme and writing everythign in recursive style, suddely my code didn't really have bugs anymore
2021-02-05T09:57:00Z ecraven: you can have some of mine :P
2021-02-05T09:57:03Z mangol: my bug rate has been going down over the years in general due to experience, but there was a noticeable boost with scheme
2021-02-05T09:57:31Z mangol: :D
2021-02-05T09:58:33Z mangol: i think the lack of assignment statements has a lot to do with it. with recursion you gather the values for the next step at the end and "assign" them all at once (implicitly via TCO) at the end of the step
2021-02-05T09:59:19Z mangol: so it's hard to confuse the order of the variable assignments
2021-02-05T10:01:05Z mangol: there was a list of bugs in the release (or beta?) of some of the semi-recent ID Software games, and a great number of them were off-by-one errors
2021-02-05T10:01:45Z mangol: that kind of thing is what's left when the programmers are really good
2021-02-05T10:07:04Z taw10: r.e. SLIME alternatives for non-Emacs, Conjure (https://github.com/Olical/conjure) for NeoVim is really nice.  Scheme is not yet supported, but will be soon (I am tempted to try adding Guile support myself)
2021-02-05T10:09:18Z ecraven: taw10: thanks, I'll look at that. the problem
2021-02-05T10:09:50Z ecraven: I see with many of these projects is that SLIME does way more than just completion and evaluation. there's the inspector, there's good tracing support, you can show images at the REPL, and so on
2021-02-05T10:16:13Z taw10: Yes, indeed.  I'm hopeful that Conjure will eventually do all of that
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2021-02-05T10:20:50Z Gnuxie[m]: Mad that the colours in the pic are appropriated from Clhs
2021-02-05T10:21:05Z Gnuxie[m]: Genuinely angry
2021-02-05T10:31:13Z ecraven: taw10: what's the backend protocol?
2021-02-05T10:49:07Z ecraven: taw10: docstrings are a good thing too ;)
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2021-02-05T11:22:24Z jeko: yolo schemers
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2021-02-05T11:38:03Z taw10: ecraven: there's a client module for each language, which starts and communicates with the REPL in whatever way
2021-02-05T11:38:20Z taw10: I don't know that much about it - I only discovered it myself last weekend
2021-02-05T11:39:24Z ecraven: taw10: from my experience, that's about the worst way to go about things.. you really need a dedicated server, not interface with the repl. you need this for multithreading, for example
2021-02-05T11:40:26Z wasamasa: Geiser just sucks
2021-02-05T11:41:01Z wasamasa: I don't see a replacement becoming a thing without proper sockets support everywhere though
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2021-02-05T11:44:59Z ecraven: wasamasa++ ;)
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2021-02-05T13:13:43Z jeko: good afternoon schemers!
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2021-02-05T13:43:32Z taw10: ecraven: sure, the client plugin can communicate in any other way that it likes
2021-02-05T13:44:14Z taw10: I don't know if the other stuff (docstrings etc) are intended to be within the project's scope, though
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2021-02-05T18:44:41Z wasamasa: rudybot: hello there
2021-02-05T18:44:41Z rudybot: wasamasa: There's a Hello-Kitty assault rifle
2021-02-05T18:44:55Z Zipheir: rudybot: You're back!
2021-02-05T18:44:55Z rudybot: Zipheir: you could read all, change the one you're interested in, then write all back
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2021-02-05T20:52:47Z amirouche: what is the revolution of today?
2021-02-05T20:52:49Z amirouche: :o)
2021-02-05T20:54:29Z amirouche: I hereby claim ports are a dubious abstraction, feared by experienced schemers, not understood by new users, and not schemey concept... port shall vanish!
2021-02-05T20:54:42Z amirouche: mangol: :D
2021-02-05T20:58:35Z amirouche: rudybot: do you think ports should vanish?
2021-02-05T20:58:41Z rudybot: amirouche: "The files are deleted before run/collecting returns, so when the ports are closed, they vanish." lovely, s/he knows the trick: on *nix one can 'delete' a file while something else is still reading it. had lots of fun with that back in the day.
2021-02-05T20:59:07Z amirouche: rudybot: you nerd!
2021-02-05T20:59:09Z rudybot: amirouche: pjb is an e-lisp nerd, he'll probably help you with that if you flash him a small amount of $
2021-02-05T20:59:34Z amirouche: rudybot: do not call on your nerd friend to help me nerf my energy
2021-02-05T20:59:48Z rudybot: amirouche: what do you guys think about the possible HT nerf
2021-02-05T21:00:04Z amirouche: idk
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2021-02-06T00:42:51Z jcowan: does anyone know what the lightning bolt means in the R7RS benchmark output?
2021-02-06T00:46:45Z gwatt: jcowan: crashed while running
2021-02-06T00:47:20Z gwatt: You can hover over the cells and there is a tooltip popup
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2021-02-06T00:53:18Z jcowan: ah, thanks
2021-02-06T00:53:32Z jcowan: so TinyScheme *always* crashes
2021-02-06T00:53:38Z jcowan chuckles
2021-02-06T01:02:24Z jcowan: I'm putting together a typeclass spec for sequences
2021-02-06T01:04:17Z jcowan: Is it worth having linear-update versions of the various functions?
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2021-02-06T01:14:42Z mdhughes: TinyScheme works, but you need to use a file instead of stdin usually.
2021-02-06T01:15:20Z mdhughes: There's ways to fix that if you jiggery-pokery around in source.
2021-02-06T01:17:58Z mdhughes: So wrap it in `(with-input-from-file (car *args*) (lambda () ... ))`, pass input file, and it's fine.
2021-02-06T01:20:15Z Zipheir: jcowan: Yes.  There's zero cost to providing them.
2021-02-06T01:20:56Z Zipheir: jcowan: Further, for some sequences, these might be the more efficient procedures.
2021-02-06T01:23:38Z Zipheir: (I'll definitely call vector-update! instead of vector-update, if the implementation is the usual one in Scheme.)
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2021-02-06T01:59:02Z jcowan: This wouldn't apply to single-element changes
2021-02-06T02:11:33Z Zipheir: Which operations would get linear updates, then?
2021-02-06T02:11:45Z Zipheir: Er, linear update variants.
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2021-02-06T03:39:41Z jcowan: e.g.take! sets the appropriate cdr to () when dealing with lists, but otherwise is the same as take
2021-02-06T03:40:26Z jcowan: I can't actually think of any other sequence types in which take! is different from take
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2021-02-06T04:15:24Z Zipheir: They may well be useful for other, as-yet-unknown sequence types that want to use the typeclass.
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2021-02-06T04:38:40Z jcowan: True.  But currently there are 80 procedures, of which 25 are linear-update.
2021-02-06T04:38:46Z jcowan: That's a lot.
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2021-02-06T05:23:37Z Zipheir: jcowan: That is a lot.
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2021-02-06T05:47:02Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/SequencesCowan.md if you want to take a look.
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2021-02-06T05:50:38Z Zipheir: LGTM, for the most part.  Do we still need seqsets?
2021-02-06T05:54:32Z jcowan: I was wondering that.  I don't think so: they are O(n2)
2021-02-06T05:55:27Z jcowan: Gone.
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2021-02-06T08:08:39Z ecraven: jcowan: the problem with tinyscheme is that it seems that (read) does not work if you run `tinyscheme file.scm'
2021-02-06T08:08:43Z ecraven: it always reports an error
2021-02-06T08:08:49Z ecraven: I've been trying to find a way to fix this, but haven't yet
2021-02-06T08:09:29Z ecraven: mdhughes: I'll try that, thank you
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2021-02-06T10:19:01Z siraben: rudybot: static or dynamic types?
2021-02-06T10:19:06Z rudybot: siraben: s/dispatch/symbol-resolving(??)/ or something .. the function to call is statically looked up via the combination of the name and the apparent (static) types of the arguments. as opposed to dynamic dispatch where you can call method X on a variable with type FooClass but the variable actually holds an object of type FoooSubClass meaning the subclass's X is called
2021-02-06T10:24:08Z mdhughes: Also, call it with `tinyscheme -1 foo.scm foo.input`, no-args does something else.
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2021-02-06T12:04:26Z mangol: next level OO meme, saved for posterity from r/lispmemes: https://misc.lassi.io/2021/object-oriented-iceberg.jpeg
2021-02-06T12:05:16Z mangol: it makes one wonder, what are some of the most advanced object-oriented systems ever built? (apart from the internet)
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2021-02-06T12:10:21Z mdhughes: "advanced" is kind of irrelevant. Smalltalk was early, and it's more useful than later ones, but crippled by the runtime image design, nobody wants you to ship your whole image to them.
2021-02-06T12:10:54Z mdhughes: Objective-C is most of Smalltalk on top of C, but without the image, which is why NeXTstep and then OS X and iOS are useful.
2021-02-06T12:11:42Z mdhughes: Self's a fantastically useful little language, but had no support. JavaScript's a somewhat broken version of Self, but it runs everywhere so it's the most useful language on the planet.
2021-02-06T12:13:19Z mdhughes: I have my own Scheme OOP system, loosely based on Objective-C's. Quick dispatch of messages and messageNotUnderstood selectors.
2021-02-06T12:14:17Z mdhughes: But most of the time I just use R6RS (or SRFI-9/99) records, they're good enough for many problems.
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2021-02-06T12:14:25Z mangol: smalltalk, objective-c, and your system are all class-based, not prototype-based? and all single-inheritance?
2021-02-06T12:16:35Z mdhughes: Self & JS are prototype-based. But I generally prefer Smalltalk-like class systems.
2021-02-06T12:17:27Z mdhughes: Obvs, don't confuse that with Java's, which is cut down so much from Obj-C it lost almost all of the useful features.
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2021-02-06T12:18:13Z mdhughes: The one thing Java did right is the Bean/POJO model, but almost nobody bothers to implement bean descriptors, so you can't make nice objects except by code.
2021-02-06T12:19:08Z mdhughes: Multiple implementation inheritance is a massive mistake. You so quickly hit unresolvable class diamonds.
2021-02-06T12:20:25Z mangol: did you say earlier you worked with kent beck?
2021-02-06T12:20:54Z mdhughes: Briefly, I got JUnit & XP training from him. Like, 2 weeks?
2021-02-06T12:22:05Z mdhughes: His preference for Smalltalk was very clear, but he made Java do interesting things, just much harder than it should've been.
2021-02-06T12:22:11Z mangol: how would you compare the smalltalk and lisp/scheme communities?
2021-02-06T12:23:00Z mangol: how similar or different is the thinking and problem solving style and overall attitude?
2021-02-06T12:23:09Z mdhughes: Smalltalk doesn't really have a community anymore that I know of. Every impl was a silo that couldn't work with the others, and all very very enterprise-focused.
2021-02-06T12:23:43Z mangol: right, i guess they sold to the market that java stealrollered over
2021-02-06T12:23:43Z mdhughes: There's a reason C2Wiki was for an accounting project.
2021-02-06T12:24:11Z mangol: stealrollered lol. freudian slip?
2021-02-06T12:24:20Z mdhughes: steamlol
2021-02-06T12:24:49Z mangol: just lolling around
2021-02-06T12:25:46Z mangol: is the Smalltalk attitude to solving problems and building systems similar to the lisp one?
2021-02-06T12:26:14Z mdhughes: One big difference, everything's in the IDE, even more than Java or Emacs is to LISP.
2021-02-06T12:26:41Z mangol: is going outside the IDE considered kinda heretical or uncool there?
2021-02-06T12:27:18Z mdhughes: You can hack off in the REPL in LISP, and code in ed or whatever. You literally *can't* code ST outside the IDE, because your objects don't exist outside the image.
2021-02-06T12:29:03Z mangol: isn't that similar to Lisp machines back in the day?
2021-02-06T12:29:49Z mangol: so Lisp forfeited that part whereas ST didn't. except GNU Smalltalk, but I don't know whether it has many users
2021-02-06T12:30:54Z mdhughes: Kind of, but it's more tinkertoy. LISP machines were still pretty text-oriented? I've only seen a few videos.
2021-02-06T12:31:16Z mdhughes: ST is just an object browser, drill down to a method or field editor.
2021-02-06T12:31:52Z mangol: for Scheme and Lisp, it's a good thing we have the cautionary tale of Smalltalk on what not to do (silo up), though it's not pleasant to see them fail
2021-02-06T12:33:20Z mdhughes: They had a bunch of other problems. It was a couple orders of magnitude slower than Java before fast JIT, let alone C.
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2021-02-06T12:33:53Z mdhughes: Objective-C has *very* fast message dispatch, but you still want to do tight loops in C, which happily it just lets you do.
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2021-02-06T12:34:39Z mangol: do you know how the performance of Pharo (the current flagship smalltalk?) compares to Lisp/Scheme?
2021-02-06T12:34:41Z mdhughes: Like, when I started using Obj-C, objc_msgSend was ~80 instructions, and now it's under 30. But of course a JMP is 1.
2021-02-06T12:35:20Z mangol: ST is like microkernels. every problem in CS can be solved by adding another level of indirection
2021-02-06T12:35:21Z mdhughes: I haven't seen a benchmark of ST in a decade+.
2021-02-06T12:36:04Z mdhughes: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/smalltalk.html
2021-02-06T12:36:34Z mangol: this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirai_(software) probably contains some of the most advanced Lisp hacks still around
2021-02-06T12:36:43Z mangol: Symbolics S-Graphics vintage
2021-02-06T12:37:18Z mangol: and ITA airfare search, but it's unlikely they use serious OOP?
2021-02-06T12:38:50Z mangol: thanks for linking the benchmark. so Visualworks is 2-100x slower than Node JS depending on the problem
2021-02-06T12:39:08Z mdhughes: And Node's a memory pig, but still compares well.
2021-02-06T12:41:10Z mangol: the pages don't say whether or not GC was triggered
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2021-02-06T12:43:25Z ecraven: mdhughes: seems to run ok, thank you
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2021-02-06T12:43:43Z mangol: is it reasonable to assume that for something as dynamic as ST, a tracing JIT is needed for competitive performance?
2021-02-06T12:43:57Z mdhughes: ecraven: Nice!
2021-02-06T12:44:04Z ecraven: mdhughes: thought almost everything is ulimitkilled ;)
2021-02-06T12:44:20Z ecraven: I'll need to investigate, maybe I should move the "slower" Schemes into a separate benchmark, with fewer repetitions
2021-02-06T12:44:37Z mdhughes: Problem lengths might be too long, tinyscheme has very strict memory limits.
2021-02-06T12:44:43Z mangol: ecraven: good idea
2021-02-06T12:44:55Z ecraven: mdhughes: what happens if tinyscheme prints "No memory"? just a gc run?
2021-02-06T12:45:20Z mdhughes: TS does well on my stupid primes benchmark, but at a certain point it explodes.
2021-02-06T12:46:05Z mdhughes: You can try running the gc again, but it's probably out of stack, not fixable.
2021-02-06T12:46:39Z mdhughes: (gcverbose)
2021-02-06T12:46:54Z mdhughes: `(gcverbose #t) (gc)`
2021-02-06T12:49:33Z mdhughes: mangol: Presumably if $Millions were thrown at ST JIT, it'd be maybe 10-50% competitive with Java, JS/Node. But even then, it does a lot of dynamic stuff on every operation.
2021-02-06T12:50:14Z mdhughes: There's no `if` primitive, booleans have a message `if:else:` that takes two blocks, evaluates one.
2021-02-06T12:50:35Z mdhughes: Likewise, no loops, numbers have `repeat:`
2021-02-06T12:50:53Z mdhughes: (or whatever it's called, it's been a long couple whiles)
2021-02-06T12:51:40Z mangol: so `foo ifTrue:` cannot be turned into a branch instruction unless the compiler can statically infer that `foo` is a boolean, and static type inference is especially hard in ST
2021-02-06T12:51:58Z mdhughes: Yeah. It's perversely unoptimizable.
2021-02-06T12:52:47Z mangol: i wonder if anyone has tried writing a whole-program optimizing compiler for ST. though freezing the world flies in the face of ST's image (pun intended)
2021-02-06T12:53:18Z ecraven: there were good Self compilers, right? that wasn't much easier to optimize than ST, was it/
2021-02-06T12:53:23Z mangol: http://www.strongtalk.org/ is still around
2021-02-06T12:53:44Z mangol: "It executes Smalltalk much faster than any other Smalltalk implementation, using an advanced inlining compiler based on type-feedback technology originally developed at Sun Microsystem Labs. Remarkably, code is dynamically compiled and decompiled as necessary, even while it is running, in order to maintain perfect interpreted semantics. Code can be transparently debugged and changed on-the-fly, yet will
2021-02-06T12:53:50Z mangol: still run at full speed."
2021-02-06T12:54:07Z mangol: Sun Labs is also where Self came from
2021-02-06T12:54:39Z mangol: Lars Bak, known for Google V8, worked there
2021-02-06T12:54:53Z mangol: small(talk) world
2021-02-06T12:55:38Z mdhughes: Well, for obvious reasons. SUN was running half the Internet, and people needed fast, production web servers and Internet services, that they could hack on and ship NOW.
2021-02-06T12:55:52Z mangol: also funny that Sun is mainly known for Unix which is almost the polar opposite of ST. NeWS is also from Sun Labs, so maybe the labs were exploring another direction for Sun which didn't pan out
2021-02-06T12:56:28Z mdhughes: So you couldn't use C/C++ for that, you'd be compiling all week. Perl was slow and not getting faster.
2021-02-06T12:57:38Z mdhughes: There was a ton of great graphics work at SUN, but they could never come close to SGI's laser focus. I loved them both, and seeing them die, I want to burn Oracle to the ground.
2021-02-06T12:58:00Z mdhughes: And Microsoft, but that goes without saying for just about anyone.
2021-02-06T12:59:00Z mangol: "The Strongtalk system was developed in secret in the mid-90's by a small startup company. Before the Strongtalk system could be released, the company was acquired by Sun Microsystems, Inc. to work on the Java® virtual machine. Development of Strongtalk was halted at that point"
2021-02-06T12:59:25Z mangol: indeed, don't you love this industr
2021-02-06T12:59:27Z mangol: y
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2021-02-06T13:00:16Z mangol: "Strongtalk development was halted before it was fully productized, so considerable work remains to polish-up Strongtalk before it is ready to be used in real-world applications. But with the release of the virtual-machine source code, a whole new world of possibilities has opened up."
2021-02-06T13:00:35Z mangol: there is insufficient genius in open source for projects like this. that's just how it is
2021-02-06T13:01:25Z mangol: would have to pull some of the top VM hackers out of their cushy google jobs and tenure-track professorships, put five of them in a room with no telephones for a few years
2021-02-06T13:02:14Z mangol: we are lucky to have Chez, Gambit, and SBCL as open source
2021-02-06T13:02:49Z mdhughes: And Chez only because Cisco (fuckers who support China's Great Firewall) need it for something and pay Dybvig.
2021-02-06T13:03:19Z mdhughes: Chez's fantastic, but I think about the blood money funding it all the time.
2021-02-06T13:03:42Z mangol: the corporate sponsorship doesn't seem to present many practical problems so far. VM development seems pretty much no strings attached
2021-02-06T13:04:20Z mangol: every company the size of Cisco is pretty much going along with politics like that
2021-02-06T13:04:23Z mdhughes: Sure, but morally it's horrible. I'm looking the other way because I need a fast Scheme and they seem hands-off.
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2021-02-06T13:05:13Z mangol: other fast schemes come from universities. universities are very, very far from being politically neutral entities.
2021-02-06T13:05:25Z mdhughes: But if Microsoft made the best Scheme, I wouldn't touch it. I also don't touch GNU stuff, and they have much smaller crimes.
2021-02-06T13:06:19Z mdhughes: I was out of Java by the time Oracle bought and murdered SUN.
2021-02-06T13:20:10Z mangol: on scheme projects, there's still demand for a library collection that is faster-moving than SRFI. can and should be as portable as we can make it.
2021-02-06T13:20:43Z mangol: another person just posted on the Kawa list that he'd like something like it
2021-02-06T13:21:51Z mangol: if we have such a collection, some of its unit tests would make for good benchmarks too
2021-02-06T13:22:00Z mdhughes: Once it's stable I don't need a lot of new libraries, I can make my own. Thunderchez has SRFI, SDL, Cairo, couple others. Plenty for me.
2021-02-06T13:23:29Z mangol: are you the guy who put together thunderchez?
2021-02-06T13:25:17Z mdhughes: Oh no.
2021-02-06T13:26:29Z mangol: is thunderchez only for chez as it says on the tin?
2021-02-06T13:26:47Z mdhughes: Yes, it's mostly FFI hooks.
2021-02-06T13:27:41Z mdhughes: The SRFIs are just slightly renamed from chez-srfi project, which uses illegal : prefixes in names.
2021-02-06T13:28:59Z mangol: the scheme community should start organizing around a cross-implementation library collection, including FFI (for the time being, special-cased for each implementation)
2021-02-06T13:29:24Z mdhughes: I don't think x-impl FFI is likely.
2021-02-06T13:29:37Z mangol: and we should fix the little inconveniences in R6RS-R7RS portability like the : names
2021-02-06T13:30:05Z mdhughes: Some of the C integration could be shared, but it'd be 1% of the many many pages of FFI hooks.
2021-02-06T13:30:38Z mangol: the social challenge dominates the technical challenge
2021-02-06T13:31:43Z mangol: it's clear that SRFI is too heavy a process for Scheme's library collection to grow at a good rate with tolerance for design mistakes
2021-02-06T13:32:17Z mangol: it's equally clear that when people gather library collections for one implementation, those collections are incomplete, not documented, and languish after a few years
2021-02-06T13:32:37Z mangol: for libraries, RnRS has the same problems as SRFI, but compounded
2021-02-06T13:34:10Z mangol: with the number of people active in the Scheme community, we should have a library collection about the size of Go's standard library about now, with the degree of portability increasing steadily
2021-02-06T13:34:29Z mangol: since people hack on different collections, we're not on track to have that
2021-02-06T13:35:01Z mangol: SRFI and RnRS are perfectionist processes. perfectionism is great for the core language, but it's a death march for a library ecosystem.
2021-02-06T13:36:22Z mangol: there are zero people on the planet who can form a group around a process like SRFI and turn out a great standard library collection the size of Go's or Java's in a reasonable timeframe
2021-02-06T13:41:13Z mdhughes: Go has a corporate owner, who needs to make libraries to support very dumb kids they pluck from college and give a nerfed language to.
2021-02-06T13:41:40Z mangol: does that have practical implications for scheme?
2021-02-06T13:41:47Z mdhughes: Java has many, many corporate interests all of whom need and make support code. Though that's slowed down a lot since Oracle got it.
2021-02-06T13:42:21Z mangol: do Go's and Java's corporate backing imply that a library collection like theirs is a bad goal for Scheme to have?
2021-02-06T13:42:24Z mdhughes: There's no real corporate sponsor for Scheme, except Chez, and they seem OK with where it is.
2021-02-06T13:43:13Z mdhughes: So currently everyone makes the libraries they need and no more, and there's no constant stream of money to support them.
2021-02-06T13:43:36Z mangol: we have enough people to do something like the Go or Java stdlib. and the level of brilliance and commitment needed is not nearly as high as for making great VMs
2021-02-06T13:44:07Z mdhughes: Racket has a lot of libraries, but it's not well developed sometimes, and I suspect a lot of those are bit-rotting old.
2021-02-06T13:44:22Z mangol: yeah, Racket's collection is impressive but uneven
2021-02-06T13:44:24Z mdhughes: And CHICKEN has a ton of eggs, but they're also bit-rot old.
2021-02-06T13:44:42Z mdhughes: Maybe half of C4 eggs are in C5?
2021-02-06T13:44:48Z mangol: about right
2021-02-06T13:44:52Z mangol: cooperation (no pun intended) is the missing ingredient
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2021-02-06T13:45:29Z mangol: and also horizon beyond "these libraries get the job done for my next pet project"
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2021-02-06T14:05:20Z wasamasa: eggs are ported on an as-needed basis
2021-02-06T14:05:24Z wasamasa: so nothing surprising there
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2021-02-06T14:14:35Z mangol: good point. and many eggs are effectively under collective ownership already, even though each egg lists an individual author. often the author is agreeable or even relieved if someone else fixes something in it.
2021-02-06T14:19:42Z mangol: eggs have shared CI infrastructure, a unified documentation format, a common mailing list.
2021-02-06T14:21:15Z mangol: we should have portable eggs, but with collective ownership for everything, without boundaries between eggs (use R6RS/R7RS style libraries instead), and with yearly stable releases of the API
2021-02-06T14:21:33Z mangol: it's worth trying out
2021-02-06T14:22:38Z mangol: the collective ownership is the biggest question mark. for that to work, the initial group of people may have to be small enough and familiar enough that there's social pressure against making random changes to the detriment of the whole
2021-02-06T14:22:38Z wasamasa: well, snow is a thing
2021-02-06T14:22:50Z wasamasa: there's like one user on #chicken who actually tried it
2021-02-06T14:23:07Z wasamasa: I played with it briefly, but found plenty issues immediately
2021-02-06T14:23:45Z wasamasa: the biggest issue is that it's very much unclear which of the snowballs are usable for your implementation
2021-02-06T14:23:54Z mangol: i use snow and like it. but it's missing the social glue. we should have a SRFI-style social aspect, but much less formal.
2021-02-06T14:24:43Z mangol: good point on the portability as well. we should eventually automate that by running unit tests on multiple implementations
2021-02-06T14:25:02Z wasamasa: no, it should like, tell you what a library has been designed for
2021-02-06T14:25:15Z wasamasa: this aspect has been completely omitted from the specification
2021-02-06T14:26:18Z mangol: designed for what implementations you mean?
2021-02-06T14:26:30Z wasamasa: yes
2021-02-06T14:26:54Z wasamasa: there are a bunch using cond-expand to handle multiple implementations, but looking at that alone isn't sufficient to know on which ones it works
2021-02-06T14:27:04Z mangol: ideally that can be inferred mechanically by studying the library imports, then verified via CI unit tests
2021-02-06T14:27:53Z mangol: if we can get substantial agreement from the scheme community (or an enthusiastic subgroup, at any rate) we can work out the technical issues
2021-02-06T14:29:07Z mangol: we have tons of working Scheme Docker containers waiting to run CI jobs once someone figures out how to set up a CI server
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2021-02-06T14:33:12Z ecraven: mdhughes: do you perhaps know things about owllisp too? I'm having trouble to get it to run my scripts, it works fine from the command line, but if started from the script, it seems to always run into timeouts
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2021-02-06T15:49:14Z wasamasa: I have this suspicion that scheme shares one unfortunate characteristic with ruby
2021-02-06T15:49:22Z wasamasa: I really, really hate studying other people's code
2021-02-06T15:49:40Z wasamasa: it makes it easy to write clever and incomprehensible code
2021-02-06T15:49:56Z wasamasa: like, what's the point of (define true (engine-pack (nstore-engine nstore)) #t)
2021-02-06T15:50:12Z wasamasa: engine-pack used to take an optional argument (to have variadic arguments) of things to pack
2021-02-06T15:50:18Z wasamasa: but it takes zero arguments and returns #t
2021-02-06T15:50:20Z wasamasa: what's the point
2021-02-06T15:50:24Z wasamasa: is this a programming mistake?
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2021-02-06T15:51:07Z wasamasa: I find it ridiculous how SRFI-168 claims stringly typed query languages are why scheme doesn't have a great RDBMS story, but come on, this is a fucking joke
2021-02-06T15:53:19Z wasamasa: yeah, it looks very much like a bug
2021-02-06T15:53:28Z wasamasa: makes me wonder whether the test suite has ever been run
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2021-02-06T16:33:16Z Zipheir: siraben: Static ∨ dynamic types!
2021-02-06T16:33:44Z siraben: ¿por qué no los dos?
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2021-02-06T17:03:19Z Riastradh: sum types are los dos
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2021-02-06T18:03:24Z ecraven: hm.. does it make sense to add Schemes that don't even *say* they support r7rs to https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-coverage?
2021-02-06T18:04:10Z ecraven: I'd have to do the same thing I do for r7rs-benchmarks, and mostly redefine `import' so it does nothing
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2021-02-06T18:08:33Z wasamasa: hm, I think I've made srfi-168 work
2021-02-06T18:08:56Z wasamasa: to think I just wanted a quick and fun web app project to demonstrate whether sqlite reigns supreme...
2021-02-06T18:08:57Z ecraven: wasamasa: that define had 3 parameters, was that intentional?
2021-02-06T18:09:21Z wasamasa: as I said, I'm very certain it's a bug
2021-02-06T18:09:34Z wasamasa: and since srfi-168 didn't land in any scheme implementation, nobody noticed it until now
2021-02-06T18:10:37Z wasamasa: I'm very close to landing it in my prefered scheme, but some annoyances above my skill grade prevent me from doing a proper release
2021-02-06T18:13:26Z ecraven: which Scheme is that?
2021-02-06T18:13:29Z wasamasa: CHICKEN
2021-02-06T18:13:52Z ecraven: should be ok to package it as an egg, right? amirouche is online here sometimes, I think
2021-02-06T18:14:17Z wasamasa: the thing is that srfi-167 is very opinionated about the API and mandates usage of certain SRFIs
2021-02-06T18:14:28Z Zipheir: Which are missing from CHICKEN?
2021-02-06T18:14:55Z wasamasa: I've had unexpected troubles implementing r6rs-style hashtables and generators accepting custom comparators
2021-02-06T18:15:32Z wasamasa: srfi-125 and srfi-126 cannot be added to the coop for that reason
2021-02-06T18:15:58Z Zipheir: Ohhh yeah.
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2021-02-06T18:16:17Z Zipheir: Those are going to take some work.
2021-02-06T18:16:27Z wasamasa: and srfi-167 depends on srfi-125 which is most portably implemented in terms of srfi-126 which is incompatible with the zomg speed hacks in the existing srfi-69 implementation
2021-02-06T18:16:44Z wasamasa: so I've stubbed that part out with srfi-69
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2021-02-06T18:17:44Z wasamasa: so, the few months spent on and off making srfi-168 work can be summarized as, ignore shiny new SRFIs if you want to get stuff done
2021-02-06T18:19:41Z Zipheir: Or, if you make your hash-table library simple and not a mass of speed hacks, it can be brought up to date with shiny new designs.
2021-02-06T18:19:46Z wasamasa: well
2021-02-06T18:19:58Z wasamasa: I also tried using the bundled srfi-69 implementation and ran into different errors with that
2021-02-06T18:20:03Z wasamasa: at this point I gave up
2021-02-06T18:20:10Z Zipheir: (I can't make head or tail of CHICKEN's SRFI 69 implementation.)
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2021-02-06T18:21:24Z wasamasa: IIRC it just inflooped when running the test suite for some unholy reason
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2021-02-06T18:24:49Z ecraven: is an r7rs Scheme allowed to evaluate (char? 3) to #t?
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2021-02-06T18:29:39Z aeth: no
2021-02-06T18:30:04Z aeth: Nothing is allowed to be both a char? and a number?; see §3.2 Disjointness of types
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2021-02-06T18:38:05Z ecraven: poor owl-lisp ;)
2021-02-06T18:38:27Z jcowan: mdhughes, mangol: the ST community has been extremely vibrant ever since the release of Squeak.
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2021-02-06T18:39:39Z jcowan: It has always been true that the compiler "knows about" ifTrue: and friends, and in fact if you try to define it as a message on any other class it will simply never be called.
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2021-02-06T18:40:05Z jcowan: wasamasa: Really?  126 is supposed to make use of an existing 69 if there is one for precisely that reason.
2021-02-06T18:40:31Z jcowan: And shipping a ST image is no longer a big deal in the world of Docker containers.
2021-02-06T18:40:50Z wasamasa: wasn't it for the test suite, I'd have just assumed it works
2021-02-06T18:40:58Z jcowan: Huh.
2021-02-06T18:40:58Z ecraven: jcowan: that's a good point, world images don't seem bad suddenly ;D
2021-02-06T18:42:00Z Zipheir: I'd like to look at the CHICKEN hash-table situation again.
2021-02-06T18:42:02Z jcowan: Interlisp is now fully available; it's image-based but the source code files are still the SSOT even though you don't edit them.
2021-02-06T18:43:21Z Zipheir: IIRC the problem lay in the use of bound arguments for hash functions.
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2021-02-06T18:44:22Z jcowan: Yeah, Chicken is picky about that.  A special shim is probably needed because Chicken goes bonkers if the hash function returns a result outside the bounds.
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2021-02-06T19:50:35Z wasamasa: the problem is that as soon as you use a custom hash table (like when combining with comparators), you get an error
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2021-02-06T19:57:30Z Zipheir: It's possible a new hash-table implementation is needed.
2021-02-06T19:59:52Z Zipheir: Messing about with hash function bounds is black magic.
2021-02-06T20:04:15Z mangol: heh: https://www.lispers.net/ spent a good 5 minutes figuring out whether or not this has anything to do with lisp. seems it doesn't.
2021-02-06T20:04:52Z mangol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locator/Identifier_Separation_Protocol looks like the concept formerly known as "roaming"
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2021-02-06T20:06:28Z Zipheir: Weird.  Very weird.
2021-02-06T20:07:26Z mangol: that website would make for decent vaporvawe music video material too
2021-02-06T20:07:32Z mangol: *wave
2021-02-06T20:08:15Z Zipheir: Did no-one at the IETF point out the name-clash to this working group?  Even if Lisp is not a household name in the programming world, it is nonetheless pretty well-known.
2021-02-06T20:08:48Z mangol: i was wondering the same
2021-02-06T20:09:42Z ecraven: hehe, even oaklisp passes about 2/5 of the coverage tests, interesting
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2021-02-06T20:10:28Z mangol: https://github.com/barak is still around too. maybe coverage can increase
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2021-02-06T20:16:03Z mangol: also, thread on ebay forums: "Why so many Lispers on TV?" "It's a mystery to me why there are so many more people with lisps on TV than in real life."
2021-02-06T20:16:32Z mangol: either lispers do well in life and are overrepresented in positions of influence, or media and PR paints an unrealistic picture of the value of lisp
2021-02-06T20:17:11Z mangol: or both!
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2021-02-06T21:06:08Z ecraven: mangol: the main question is probably (once again) whether oaklisp *wants* to be a (partial) implementation of R7RS
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2021-02-06T21:10:24Z ecraven: unfortunate that picrin seems abandoned :-/
2021-02-06T21:12:07Z jcowan: I think it clearly does
2021-02-06T21:12:13Z jcowan: (oaklisp)
2021-02-06T21:12:23Z ecraven: does it say so anywhere?
2021-02-06T21:12:39Z ecraven: I mean, it doesn't have `begin', so, not quite sure
2021-02-06T21:12:45Z ecraven: owl-lisp definitely does, but oaklisp?
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2021-02-06T21:13:22Z jcowan: oh, sorry, collision on the hash Berkeleys
2021-02-06T21:13:40Z jcowan: oaklisp is R3RS
2021-02-06T21:13:50Z jcowan: or no, that's T
2021-02-06T21:14:10Z jcowan: "I grow old, I grow old / I shall wear the corners of my trousers rolled" (but I still step on them from time to time)
2021-02-06T21:14:56Z ecraven: mangol: ok, so you build picrin by *not* building latest master ;) I'll see whether I can package that for arch
2021-02-06T21:17:38Z jcowan: I usually only work from master if there is no other choice
2021-02-06T21:17:42Z jcowan: otherwise the latest build
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2021-02-06T22:09:30Z ecraven: hm.. does picrin not support rationals?
2021-02-06T22:09:55Z wasamasa: picrin is a joke
2021-02-06T22:10:20Z wasamasa: doesn't support anything but built-in libraries
2021-02-06T22:10:55Z wasamasa: dead, too
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2021-02-06T22:11:49Z ecraven: hm.. I just wanted to get all the r7rs schemes on r7rs-coverage, but maybe I should at least add some caveats for abandoned implementations
2021-02-06T22:12:21Z wasamasa: sigh, amirouche
2021-02-06T22:12:47Z wasamasa: not only did he pull arew scheme and all the code for okvs/nstore
2021-02-06T22:12:54Z wasamasa: but apparently the blog explaining how to use nstore, too
2021-02-06T22:13:06Z ecraven: why?
2021-02-06T22:13:24Z wasamasa: well, I'd rather not elaborate on that, lest I get kickbanned by a chanop
2021-02-06T22:13:36Z ecraven: ;)
2021-02-06T22:13:38Z wasamasa: because at this point I'm pissed
2021-02-06T22:14:13Z wasamasa: the punchline is of course the non-scheme projects getting more activity
2021-02-06T22:15:43Z ecraven: rapid-scheme is at least dormant too, right?
2021-02-06T22:15:48Z wasamasa: website wasn't around for long enough to get saved by archive.org
2021-02-06T22:15:54Z ecraven: hm.. not good
2021-02-06T22:16:04Z wasamasa: rapid-scheme has been superseded by, what's its name
2021-02-06T22:16:10Z wasamasa: unsyntax
2021-02-06T22:16:12Z ecraven: so there's a finished srfi with all the relevant info gone?
2021-02-06T22:16:20Z wasamasa: well, no
2021-02-06T22:16:35Z wasamasa: I've contributed a bunch of fixes to the okvs srfi and will do the same thing to the nstore srfi
2021-02-06T22:17:01Z wasamasa: my big question was, how does someone used to sql adapt to this technology and I'm annoyed that the page I've bookmarked for that is gone
2021-02-06T22:17:32Z ecraven: do you think he'll put it back online if someone asks nicely?
2021-02-06T22:17:33Z Zipheir: Does the SRFI provide any references?
2021-02-06T22:17:36Z wasamasa: it's not really a big deal because it's ultimately just a matter of getting familiar with srfi-158
2021-02-06T22:17:49Z wasamasa: I've asked a few times about okvs-related resources and none of them reappeared
2021-02-06T22:18:10Z wasamasa: which is OK, we're all doing this because we're hobbyists
2021-02-06T22:18:26Z wasamasa: but this rapid churn of throwing away information and going against the very nature of the web is stupid
2021-02-06T22:20:12Z wasamasa: hyper.dev now no longer looks like a blog, but some single page application requiring JS to click a link
2021-02-06T22:21:17Z wasamasa: and not even that works, lol
2021-02-06T22:21:56Z wasamasa: try it yourself: https://hyper.dev/0e823afa74074d9a8755f11a14771527.html
2021-02-06T22:22:16Z wasamasa: I cannot even select the text
2021-02-06T22:22:53Z wasamasa: again, I have many words for this, but I won't spell them out
2021-02-06T22:22:57Z ecraven: what about https://okvs.dev? does that help?
2021-02-06T22:23:18Z wasamasa: it's just a redirect to the above thing
2021-02-06T22:23:28Z ecraven: yea, but there seems to be some info about stuff
2021-02-06T22:23:57Z wasamasa: I went through all that and the most useful thing there is a link collection of non-links
2021-02-06T22:24:04Z ecraven: has anyone compiled swift-lispkit on linux? does that work?
2021-02-06T22:24:13Z ecraven: well, that's the new web! :P
2021-02-06T22:24:43Z wasamasa: the new web can go die in a fire
2021-02-06T22:29:25Z ecraven: hm.. so unsyntax uses chibi as a backend, thus there's no need to run the benchmarks for it
2021-02-06T22:30:48Z Zipheir: wasamasa: There's not much help in the 167 source tarball, either.  No description of what structures or algorithms the implementation uses, etc.
2021-02-06T22:31:49Z wasamasa: it manages using both ordered and unordered mappings from srfi-146
2021-02-06T22:32:15Z wasamasa: but it can also be made to use an actual OKVS, I've implemented it on top of LMDB
2021-02-06T22:32:21Z ecraven: isn't there some point where it might be easier to reimplement or redesign things?
2021-02-06T22:32:32Z wasamasa: I've considered that, yes
2021-02-06T22:32:50Z wasamasa: but it seemed interesting to try out a SRFI providing an alternative to carefully designed SQL relations
2021-02-06T22:33:06Z wasamasa: especially given how useless wikipedia is on the topic of non-RDBMS systems
2021-02-06T22:34:25Z ecraven: hm.. the example at the bottom of srfi-168 doesn't look that different from sql, semantically, does it?
2021-02-06T22:34:36Z wasamasa: from trivial queries perhaps
2021-02-06T22:34:47Z ecraven: yea, there are no other examples
2021-02-06T22:34:55Z wasamasa: but I want something more complicated
2021-02-06T22:35:28Z wasamasa: I expect to finish this project in another month and then I can tell how the overall performance/ergonomics story looks like and write a scathing blog post
2021-02-06T22:35:42Z Zipheir: I can't make head or tail of the SRFI 167 interface, so I'd probably just go find something else.
2021-02-06T22:35:56Z wasamasa: the document is written in a very confusing style indeed
2021-02-06T22:36:06Z wasamasa: I've contributed a number of fixes to correct the outright wrong parts
2021-02-06T22:36:22Z wasamasa: honestly though, I get that feeling with tons of SRFI documents
2021-02-06T22:36:46Z wasamasa: and not only those, but scheme libraries in general, sometimes I wonder whether there's a competition who can design the most academic API
2021-02-06T22:37:55Z Zipheir: It's hard to design good library interfaces, especially with the time limits of the SRFI process.
2021-02-06T22:38:01Z ecraven: how is an OKVS different from a normal KVS?
2021-02-06T22:38:16Z mdhughes: ecraven: Never seen an owl lisp, they mostly hoot!
2021-02-06T22:38:17Z wasamasa: it stores data in an ordered form, thereby allowing to make range queries
2021-02-06T22:38:30Z ecraven: so it's just a KVS with faster access to the keys?
2021-02-06T22:38:38Z wasamasa: this is useful to build databases on top of it
2021-02-06T22:38:41Z wasamasa: like this nstore thing
2021-02-06T22:39:54Z ecraven: that nstore thing lets you store (conceptual) alists for keys?
2021-02-06T22:40:09Z wasamasa: any supported scheme object, yes
2021-02-06T22:41:04Z ecraven: hm.. how did that get finalized? the "definition" says: (nstore-add! transaction nstore items), but the example has (nstore-add! transaction triplestore title 'post/body body), with a totally different number of parameters?
2021-02-06T22:41:14Z ecraven: but in theory this seems interesting
2021-02-06T22:41:16Z ecraven: ;)
2021-02-06T22:41:16Z wasamasa: I've run into that and have kept notes what to fix
2021-02-06T22:41:54Z wasamasa: look at my involvement for the okvs repo: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-167/pulls?q=author%3Awasamasa+
2021-02-06T22:42:25Z wasamasa: it won't be that bad with nstore, I promise
2021-02-06T22:42:59Z ecraven: where in that example is the schema defined? post/body, post/title, post/keyword are used, but is there a need to *define* the schema first?
2021-02-06T22:43:13Z wasamasa: no, you only define the tuple and prefix
2021-02-06T22:43:40Z ecraven: that's the tuple? '(subject predicate object)
2021-02-06T22:43:43Z wasamasa: yes
2021-02-06T22:43:50Z wasamasa: that makes a triple store
2021-02-06T22:43:59Z ecraven: why is it called "subject predicate object"?
2021-02-06T22:44:13Z ecraven: is that "id attribute value"?
2021-02-06T22:44:47Z wasamasa: that's how I used it in my example project
2021-02-06T22:45:10Z ecraven: wow, sorry to say, but that srfi is a mess... the PREFIX argument to nstore is not described in the text, but instead DATABASE (which doesn't even occur)
2021-02-06T22:45:11Z wasamasa: EAV table the SQL people call it
2021-02-06T22:46:43Z wasamasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_triple
2021-02-06T22:46:47Z ecraven: why does it even need those names, they never appear again?
2021-02-06T22:47:33Z wasamasa: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2021-02-06T22:47:34Z ecraven: but I see how this would be interesting ;)
2021-02-06T22:47:45Z wasamasa: sure, that's how I fell for this time sink
2021-02-06T22:48:00Z mdhughes: I just use sqlite. I'd rather have a general SQL database front-end, on par with https://www.npmjs.com/package/sequelize
2021-02-06T22:48:00Z ecraven: jcowan: did you ever try to compile swift-lispkit on anything non-mac?
2021-02-06T22:48:23Z ecraven: mdhughes: there is no general SQL :)
2021-02-06T22:48:23Z wasamasa: allegrograph is another related project
2021-02-06T22:49:10Z ecraven: oh, has anyone heard of Inlab Scheme? https://scheme.inlab.net/
2021-02-06T22:49:12Z mdhughes: sequelize is pretty general: Postgres, MySQL, MariaDB, SQLite and Microsoft SQL Server
2021-02-06T22:49:18Z ecraven: came across that today ;)
2021-02-06T22:49:38Z ecraven: mdhughes: does it work with strings?
2021-02-06T22:49:58Z mdhughes: Yes? I mean, you can make VARCHAR and TEXT fields.
2021-02-06T22:50:10Z wasamasa: 2021 and R4RS?
2021-02-06T22:50:30Z ecraven: I have used ORMs with different databases, and my experience is that the *only* way to make your (non-trivial) code work across multiple databases is to write actual SQL text.
2021-02-06T22:50:53Z ecraven: there just is no way around that. SQL is *not* standardised enough for code to be even remotely portable across systems.
2021-02-06T22:51:07Z ecraven: so anything that does not map directly to text is just not worth it, it'll bite you later
2021-02-06T22:51:29Z ecraven: also, Oracle is still a thing, and it creates a lot of problems for any ORM ("" == null and other idiotic ideas)
2021-02-06T22:51:38Z mdhughes: "Inlab Scheme 5 has not been released yet, please subscribe to our general email list if you want to get notified!"
2021-02-06T22:51:41Z mdhughes: Grr.
2021-02-06T22:51:52Z ecraven: it just looked interesting, as it's commercial ;)
2021-02-06T22:51:59Z wasamasa: > The running time was 1.1 seconds on an old Pentium90 running FreeBSD 2.1.5 including initialisation of Inlab Scheme which took about 0.2 seconds on this platform (A pentium pro 200 running FreeBSD 2.1.5 needed about 0.44 seconds including 0.05 seconds to initialise).
2021-02-06T22:52:29Z mdhughes: ecraven: That's what SQL front-ends are for, to paper over most of the differences. No Oracle support, because that's a nightmare.
2021-02-06T22:52:47Z wasamasa: so 90ies software
2021-02-06T22:53:15Z ecraven: mdhughes: from my experience, you *cannot* paper over the differences. you will get bitten by them
2021-02-06T22:53:22Z mdhughes: I've found sequelize, and over in Java-land Hibernate, cover 95% of the use-cases. If you do have a DB-specific thing you want to do, you can still write raw SQL, but please don't.
2021-02-06T22:53:49Z ecraven: well, for basic CRUD stuff, that works, but for anything that uses a database in a useful way, I've never seen that work.
2021-02-06T22:53:51Z mdhughes: <- been using DB front-ends and ORM for 20+ years. Been bit by a few, but it's not that bad.
2021-02-06T22:54:07Z ecraven: it's been about 15 years for me, but some of them on Oracle ;)
2021-02-06T22:54:10Z mdhughes: Core Data's great, too, but of course it only does sqlite.
2021-02-06T22:54:25Z ecraven: man, I don't get why anyone sane would ever use Oracle...
2021-02-06T22:54:58Z mdhughes: I was *shocked* when I first used MS SQL server, it has some weird things, but the ORM covered that, and it just worked, faster and safer than MySQL.
2021-02-06T22:55:24Z mdhughes: But Postgres and sqlite really cover every use I care about.
2021-02-06T22:55:31Z ecraven: well, not hard to be safer than MySQL ;) I've heard MS SQL server now runs on Linux, that might be interesting
2021-02-06T22:55:38Z ecraven: finally get rid of those windows VMs
2021-02-06T22:55:50Z ecraven: yea, I'd agree with that, postgres for actual database server stuff, and sqlite for everything local
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2021-02-06T22:57:04Z mdhughes: I wish Mongo hadn't adopted their stupid licensing scam. I liked it for freezing/unfreezing objects to a DB.
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2021-02-06T22:57:20Z ecraven: I've not used mongo myself, but heard a lot of bad things about it ;)
2021-02-06T22:57:30Z mdhughes: It's not a real DB, but it's fantastic for an object store.
2021-02-06T22:57:35Z ecraven: wasamasa: do you have an extended example of a more complicated query?
2021-02-06T22:57:50Z ecraven: I've seen redis used for that, it seems mostly sane
2021-02-06T22:59:46Z mdhughes: SIGH, Inlab, why do you think you can name your Scheme "scheme"? Only Dybvig gets to do that nonsense. https://scheme.inlab.net/reference-manual/general-usage/#running-inlab-scheme-scripts
2021-02-06T23:00:01Z wasamasa: something like `select id, key, value from store where ((key = color and value = red) or (key = color and value = red)) and (key = size and value = small)`
2021-02-06T23:00:12Z wasamasa: basically, I want to do filtering across several sets of attributes
2021-02-06T23:00:24Z wasamasa: same attributes should use or, different combinations of them should use and
2021-02-06T23:00:47Z wasamasa: I've accomplished that with an EAV table and subselects and query generation with SQL
2021-02-06T23:01:12Z wasamasa: the above query would return small things that are either red or blue
2021-02-06T23:01:14Z mdhughes: A single row can't have key=color and key=size…
2021-02-06T23:01:26Z ecraven: but the key has them
2021-02-06T23:01:34Z ecraven: s/key/id/
2021-02-06T23:01:45Z ecraven: it's not SQL, it's an ordered key-value store
2021-02-06T23:02:03Z mdhughes: OK, a join on those.
2021-02-06T23:02:06Z ecraven: it just seems that syntax from the srfi is way too verbose to actually use
2021-02-06T23:02:19Z wasamasa: it's a start
2021-02-06T23:02:38Z wasamasa: I wrote another version using the underlying JSON file and lots of SRFI-1 stuff
2021-02-06T23:02:40Z wasamasa: it's very slow
2021-02-06T23:02:47Z ecraven: is mosh dormant too? doesn't compile here, and seems to not be updated
2021-02-06T23:03:25Z mdhughes: This, btw, is exactly where Mongo was great. {color:[red, blue], size:small} would match just those objects.
2021-02-06T23:03:38Z wasamasa: well, thanks for the inspiration
2021-02-06T23:03:44Z wasamasa: but I definitely won't use mongo
2021-02-06T23:04:09Z mdhughes: Nobody can use Mongo now. But it's an interesting model to look at if you do want to make a new DB.
2021-02-06T23:04:14Z ecraven: ah, KyotoCabinet, I used that years ago
2021-02-06T23:04:25Z ecraven: that was nice
2021-02-06T23:04:42Z wasamasa: I once wrote a throwaway script using GNU dbm to query gopherholes
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2021-02-06T23:04:45Z ecraven: I have MIT/GNU Scheme ffi code for that somewhere ;)
2021-02-06T23:05:30Z ecraven: ah, come on STklos, don't try to do magic things just because a function is called `main' :-/
2021-02-06T23:05:35Z wasamasa: lol
2021-02-06T23:06:04Z wasamasa: rudybot: gerbil scheme would like to know your location
2021-02-06T23:06:07Z rudybot: wasamasa: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/pix/gerbil.jpg
2021-02-06T23:06:37Z Zipheir: This is a database model that looks promising: https://www.categoricaldata.net/
2021-02-06T23:07:38Z Zipheir: I haven't studied the model far beyond Spivak's pullback-query idea.
2021-02-06T23:07:38Z wasamasa: my original plan wasn't doing biological identification, but to do graph databases and sourcecode analysis
2021-02-06T23:08:01Z wasamasa: then amirouche kept insisting that nstore is equivalent to graph databases
2021-02-06T23:08:58Z jcowan: ecraven: Chibi is really just a POC for Unsyntax, which is meant to replace other portable syntax/ilbrary wrappers
2021-02-06T23:09:14Z ecraven: jcowan: I understand that, but it makes running a benchmark for it not very useful
2021-02-06T23:09:23Z ecraven: now coverage, that's different of course ;)
2021-02-06T23:10:44Z jcowan: Ah, right.
2021-02-06T23:11:01Z jcowan: Of course, someone will have to write define-macro and implicit-renaming etc etc tests
2021-02-06T23:11:16Z jcowan: I'm trying to port fast-generic from Chicken to Chibi
2021-02-06T23:11:18Z ecraven: anyway, just got stklos running, I'll call it a night ;)
2021-02-06T23:11:22Z wasamasa: same
2021-02-06T23:11:46Z jcowan: and I'm getting one of those infuriating Chibi errors when you screw up a macro: ERROR on line 291 of file /usr/local/share/chibi/meta-7.scm: cdr: not a pair: ()
2021-02-06T23:11:49Z jcowan: or like that
2021-02-06T23:11:55Z jcowan: means some macro is malformed
2021-02-06T23:12:09Z jcowan: s/macro/macro call
2021-02-06T23:12:27Z ecraven: hm.. is there *any* scheme that will give you great quality backtraces?
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2021-02-06T23:13:50Z jcowan: IMO what Chicken does (gives you the last N calls) is in principle the Right Thing in a call/cc language.
2021-02-06T23:14:08Z jcowan: otherwise the backtrace has to be a tree
2021-02-06T23:14:20Z jcowan: The real problem is that chibi's metamacros don't do any error checking
2021-02-06T23:14:38Z jcowan wonders if Chicken and Chibi have incompatible syntax for er-macro-transformer
2021-02-06T23:14:51Z jcowan: I know Larceny does
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2021-02-06T23:56:37Z foof: jcowan: () is in fact not a pair
2021-02-06T23:56:52Z jcowan: Without doubt.
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2021-02-07T00:00:13Z jcowan: here's the .sld file:
2021-02-07T00:00:22Z jcowan: (define-library fast-generic
2021-02-07T00:00:22Z jcowan:   (export define-generic
2021-02-07T00:00:22Z jcowan:           generic-error
2021-02-07T00:00:22Z jcowan:           define-type)
2021-02-07T00:00:22Z jcowan:   
2021-02-07T00:00:22Z jcowan:   (import (scheme base))
2021-02-07T00:00:23Z jcowan:   (import (only (chibi) er-macro-transformer))
2021-02-07T00:00:23Z jcowan:  
2021-02-07T00:00:24Z jcowan: (include "fast-generic-compile-time.scm")
2021-02-07T00:00:24Z jcowan: (include "fast-generic.scm")
2021-02-07T00:00:25Z jcowan: )
2021-02-07T00:00:51Z jcowan: the two included files are properly paren-balanced and all.
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2021-02-07T00:32:21Z Riastradh: foof: it's a pair of parentheses
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2021-02-07T07:33:20Z ecraven: wasamasa: do you need a backing triplestore, or is that what the srfis actually do, offer a triplestore backed by a simple okvs or rdbms?
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2021-02-07T07:52:00Z ecraven: wasamasa: also, what does `engine-pack' and `engine-unpack' do exactly?
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2021-02-07T09:02:13Z mangol: mdhughes: ecraven: so Inlab Scheme 5 is coming soon. did you manage to find the subscription link to the mailing list?
2021-02-07T09:02:20Z mangol: ecraven: "is mosh dormant too? doesn't compile here" is dormant, but does compile: https://github.com/scheme-containers/mosh
2021-02-07T09:02:26Z mangol: ecraven: "STklos, don't try to do magic things just because a function is called `main'" --> STklos is actively maintained, maintainers are very helpful, please report all issues at https://github.com/egallesio/STklos
2021-02-07T09:02:32Z mangol: ecraven: "is there *any* scheme that will give you great quality backtraces?" not that i know of. better error messages in scheme would be a much needed topic for a research paper or few. i haven't found any so far.
2021-02-07T09:02:41Z mangol: ecraven: "maybe I should at least add some caveats for abandoned implementations." we should think about how to present unmaintained implementations on scheme.org. many/most of them still work, but obviously library support and the like is lacking.
2021-02-07T09:03:02Z wasamasa: ecraven: I want either a graph database or triple store or something holding JSON objects to store ontological data
2021-02-07T09:03:35Z wasamasa: ecraven: the SRFI offers a nstore (triples, quads, whatever you wish for) on top of an okvs
2021-02-07T09:04:05Z wasamasa: ecraven: packing and unpacking converts scheme objects to bytevectors and back because an okvs only deals with bytevectors
2021-02-07T09:07:50Z mario-goulart: mangol: error messages of CHICKEN code compiled with -d3 -O0 are not too terrible.
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2021-02-07T09:09:01Z mangol: mario-goulart: thanks, sounds very good. i haven't tried those flags.
2021-02-07T09:09:19Z wasamasa: it's a bit annoying to recompile all the dependencies with these flags, but hey
2021-02-07T09:09:39Z wasamasa: -:a100 is another lifesaver if the default call trace size is too small
2021-02-07T09:09:58Z mario-goulart: Another thing that might be useful sometimes is the -:a<num> runtime parameter.  <num> is the number of lines of backtrace you want.
2021-02-07T09:10:10Z mario-goulart: Indeed.
2021-02-07T09:10:21Z mangol: are there schemes other than chicken and gambit that have -: flags?
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2021-02-07T09:12:36Z mangol: one thing that might help with errors is to mark some macros as "this is such low-level stuff that no-one probably wants to see the expansion, hence show the unexpanded form"
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2021-02-07T09:14:05Z mangol: another classic error is "operator is not a procedure", the scheme equivalent of Unix's "invalid argument" :)
2021-02-07T09:14:39Z mangol: that one can probably be improved simply by showing what object that non-procedure operator is
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2021-02-07T09:50:01Z fantazo: Running the same codebase in kawa scheme, chicken and guile? How many people tried that?
2021-02-07T09:51:52Z wasamasa: it is painful, but it can be done
2021-02-07T09:52:07Z wasamasa: pointless, too
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2021-02-07T09:55:02Z mangol: why is there such a propensity in lisp communities to point out other people's goals are pointless without knowing anything about those goals?
2021-02-07T09:55:30Z wasamasa: look, if you have the choice between getting something done and not getting something done
2021-02-07T09:55:40Z wasamasa: why would you insist on not getting something done (AKA pointless)?
2021-02-07T09:57:26Z mdhughes: benchmarking isn't pointless, but does require some portability.
2021-02-07T09:58:17Z mangol: i don't think improving scheme portability is pointless. i think it's the most essential goal around scheme.
2021-02-07T09:58:26Z wasamasa: if you end up benchmarking what an implementation makes of inefficient, but portable code, whew
2021-02-07T09:58:36Z wasamasa: not terribly representative of that implementation
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2021-02-07T09:58:39Z mdhughes: I think a lot of peoples' projects are of no use *to me*, but mine are just screwing around making indie games and tools, so I'm not gonna put a "useless" sticker on most things.
2021-02-07T10:00:13Z mangol: exactly. if someone truly knows all the right opinions to have and the goals to pick in life, that tends to show to outside observers in some reasonably objective way, i.e. that person is considered successful.
2021-02-07T10:01:11Z wasamasa: look at this thing and tell me, is that how you bait someone new to scheme, believing portable code is their number one priority: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/blob/master/impls/scheme/Makefile
2021-02-07T10:01:27Z wasamasa: I wrote this thing and occasionally refer to it when working with other implementations
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2021-02-07T10:01:44Z wasamasa: sometimes to https://github.com/kanaka/mal/blob/master/impls/scheme/run as well
2021-02-07T10:04:28Z mangol: it's well known that scheme portability is not easy at the moment. your examples are not too bad.
2021-02-07T10:04:39Z mangol: it can be improved until it is
2021-02-07T10:05:16Z wasamasa: given the existence of implementations like picrin with zero provisions to support loading user-defined libraries, yeah, no
2021-02-07T10:05:20Z wasamasa: I'm pessimistic
2021-02-07T10:05:36Z wasamasa: there isn't even agreement over the file extensions and expected locations for them
2021-02-07T10:06:09Z mangol: this is great. we found the crux of the matter :) it's an optimism vs pessimism debate at bottom.
2021-02-07T10:06:19Z wasamasa: I could probably improve this example by making it C5-exclusive and turning the code into an egg
2021-02-07T10:06:27Z wasamasa: that would eliminate the gnarliest part
2021-02-07T10:07:20Z wasamasa: most r7rs code I've seen is single files
2021-02-07T10:07:46Z wasamasa: the benchmarks/coverage project does some trickery assembling preludes and postludes together into a single file
2021-02-07T10:09:48Z wasamasa: because a multi-file thing is just too painful to get working otherwise and would have excluded implementations like guile before their full r7rs support
2021-02-07T10:10:26Z mangol: there are several things that would be useful to standardize to help with that
2021-02-07T10:11:11Z wasamasa: the standard is intentionally silent on the extensions and paths thing
2021-02-07T10:11:22Z wasamasa: it's not unlike with C implementations
2021-02-07T10:11:30Z mangol: true
2021-02-07T10:11:51Z wasamasa: where an implementation could forego file-backed libraries for embedded usecases
2021-02-07T10:12:01Z mangol: SRFI is a good process for problems of exactly this type
2021-02-07T10:12:07Z wasamasa: in which case a design like picrin does make sense
2021-02-07T10:12:40Z wasamasa: I dunno, SRFI emphasizes the portable implementation bit
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2021-02-07T10:13:03Z wasamasa: it's unlike JEPs and such
2021-02-07T10:13:40Z mangol: that's generally true, but there are some SRFIs that have almost no portable implementation and Arthur happily accepts them as long as the interface is portable
2021-02-07T10:13:52Z mangol: and there are one or two implementations for particular Schemes to point to
2021-02-07T10:14:27Z mangol: SRFI 193 is now in several Schemes and there are no portable parts to the implementation at all
2021-02-07T10:15:16Z wasamasa: I thought more of srfi-22 because it doesn't expose any procedures whatsoever
2021-02-07T10:15:38Z mangol: true, 22 is a classic example
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2021-02-07T10:17:01Z mangol: anyway, standardizing things like a manifest file format for packages would be great to do via SRFI. but the problem is so complex that quite a bit of pre-planning and experimental implementation should be done first
2021-02-07T10:19:40Z mangol: scheme is quite a DIY language and will be for a couple more years. i wonder whether there's an effective way to signal that to outsiders in a way that isn't negative
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2021-02-07T10:20:08Z mangol: or maybe just keep to ourselves and do good work until less assembly is required
2021-02-07T10:27:23Z mangol: as for implementations with few features like picrin, easy subsetting is one of the main advantages of scheme. but we should find a clear way to indicate how featureful different implementations are
2021-02-07T10:27:41Z mangol: preferably by coming up with some objective criteria
2021-02-07T10:28:45Z mangol: interpreters like lua are successful because they have few features. that makes them easy to drop into any C codebase. picrin is in that neighborhood, as is tinyscheme.
2021-02-07T10:39:36Z wasamasa: hm, how does one do a sort/uniq operation with generators
2021-02-07T10:40:29Z mangol: the worst case is that the last object coming from the generator belongs first in the resulting sequence
2021-02-07T10:40:41Z mangol: so you have to be prepared to buffer the whole sequence
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2021-02-07T10:45:53Z mangol: with SRFI 214, you could perhaps add elements from the generator one by one into a flexvector, using binary search to find the right position for each element. binary search would also find duplicates for you.
2021-02-07T10:47:01Z mangol: does that mean the complexity is O(n * log n)?
2021-02-07T10:47:21Z wasamasa: such is sort
2021-02-07T10:47:35Z wasamasa: anyway, I think I'll just let a srfi-69 sort that out for me :P
2021-02-07T10:47:51Z mangol: :D i always use hash tables for uniq too
2021-02-07T10:49:29Z mangol: though it would be useful if scheme had a de facto standard procedure to insert element(s) into a pre-sorted list
2021-02-07T10:49:40Z mangol: i.e. merge
2021-02-07T10:50:37Z mangol: duh, list-merge in SRFI 132 :)
2021-02-07T10:50:43Z mangol: and list-merge!
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2021-02-07T10:55:36Z amirouche: roger, general major!
2021-02-07T10:55:44Z amirouche: best nick of 2021
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2021-02-07T10:59:22Z wasamasa: do you happen to have a copy of https://hyper.dev/blog/sparql-to-nstore.html around?
2021-02-07T10:59:46Z wasamasa: oh and please fix hyper.dev to have actually working links on https://hyper.dev/639e4206448b2bed3d926601bec5d736.html
2021-02-07T11:00:08Z wasamasa: for example I can't click on hoply's github URL
2021-02-07T11:17:12Z amirouche: wasamasa: https://hyper.dev/2019-07-07-SPARQL-to-Scheme-Generic-Tuple-Store-nstore-e9ff38ee617b49b1817b9cc332b597f5.html
2021-02-07T11:17:13Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/d47ZffYn7g
2021-02-07T11:17:23Z amirouche: i am working on fixing the links
2021-02-07T11:17:31Z amirouche: (sorry, the rendering of the article is not perfect)
2021-02-07T11:17:40Z wasamasa: thank you
2021-02-07T11:18:05Z wasamasa: have you considered to make old links work, no matter what?
2021-02-07T11:18:25Z wasamasa: if you're going to suggest people to make bookmarks, it's rather pointless if the bookmarks stop working
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2021-02-07T11:21:08Z amirouche: hmm, I have a big problem with that
2021-02-07T11:21:40Z wasamasa: yes, it's annoying and ugly to put rewrite rules into your nginx config
2021-02-07T11:22:52Z wasamasa: but it makes people happy if stuff just keeps working
2021-02-07T11:28:00Z mangol: in practice, it's probably impossible to maintain a long-lived website without resorting to some redirects eventually. it would be fun to know what percentage of all web URLs are redirects; probably substantial.
2021-02-07T11:29:27Z wasamasa: anyway, thanks for the link, I guess you didn't figure out the uniq/sort parts either
2021-02-07T11:30:48Z amirouche: uniq and sort, in the general case, requires to consume the generator.
2021-02-07T11:31:02Z amirouche: so possibly having a lot of data in memory.
2021-02-07T11:31:34Z amirouche: re sort: if srfi-168 items are not compressed, they are returned in-order.
2021-02-07T11:32:19Z amirouche: re uniq: it does not require to have everything in memory, but at least keep track of what was already generated in a set (so it is not the full data set that is in memory)
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2021-02-07T11:32:55Z wasamasa: I ended up using a srfi-69 hash table for that
2021-02-07T11:35:28Z wasamasa: the other thing I wondered about is how one would make more complicated tests than with nstore-where
2021-02-07T11:35:40Z wasamasa: like by using a custom predicate instead of this pattern matching thing
2021-02-07T11:37:25Z amirouche: the best one can do, is lookup the prefix of a tuple item like (nstore-where (list 'key 'value (var 'firtname (prefix "amir")))) could yield '((firstnam . amirouche))
2021-02-07T11:37:35Z amirouche: otherwise, one needs to create compound values.
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2021-02-07T11:37:49Z wasamasa: I will also need some join/subselect-like facility, yes
2021-02-07T11:38:12Z wasamasa: but I thought that nstore-query basically does that
2021-02-07T11:38:15Z amirouche: yes
2021-02-07T11:38:23Z amirouche: nstore-query does do joins.
2021-02-07T11:39:09Z amirouche: same you can filter with a predicate with something like (gfilter predicate? (nstore-query ...)) but in that case the complexity is not O(n log n) but depends on the number of items inside (nstore-query)
2021-02-07T11:39:48Z amirouche: also, the order in which patterns appear inside nstore-where / nstore-query does yield different complexity / spent time.
2021-02-07T11:40:02Z amirouche: most precise pattern must come first.
2021-02-07T11:40:45Z amirouche: if for instance one does (nstore (var 'uid) (var 'key) (var 'value) and then compose with another nstore-where, it will scan the whole database.
2021-02-07T11:41:01Z amirouche: there is execution planing or optimization
2021-02-07T11:41:05Z amirouche: there is NO execution planing or optimization
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2021-02-07T11:44:49Z wasamasa: relevant: https://x32.be/map-reduce.png
2021-02-07T11:50:00Z amirouche: i like that :)
2021-02-07T11:50:14Z amirouche: btw notion html is the worst unsemantic html I have seen to data.
2021-02-07T11:51:16Z amirouche: re my blog link are not <a> because notion.so think it is better to use div to create a table, the cell alone that contains the url, has the following schema div > div > div > span
2021-02-07T11:51:28Z amirouche: inside the span there is text node with the url in plaintext :|
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2021-02-07T11:52:09Z wasamasa: isn't notion the thing charging you money per text node and not working without internet
2021-02-07T11:52:14Z amirouche: notion raised $50 millions 6 month ago.
2021-02-07T11:52:20Z amirouche: wasamasa: yes
2021-02-07T11:52:24Z wasamasa: it's like the worst possible note taking solution one can choose
2021-02-07T11:52:33Z wasamasa: run
2021-02-07T11:52:47Z wasamasa: no wonder your shit is permanently broken
2021-02-07T11:52:59Z amirouche: this is recent ;)
2021-02-07T11:53:06Z wasamasa: it's a recurring pattern
2021-02-07T11:53:12Z amirouche: also they stream / lazily load pages for some reason...
2021-02-07T11:53:34Z amirouche: ah yes, my blog is always broken for different reasons, but nowadays it is because of notion
2021-02-07T11:53:49Z amirouche: lazily load content of pages...
2021-02-07T11:54:23Z amirouche: it might be a workaround to avoid people sraping the pages.
2021-02-07T11:54:42Z amirouche: also you have to pay to be indexed by search engine x)
2021-02-07T11:54:55Z wasamasa: I'm not sure whether that's an antifeature
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2021-02-07T12:00:30Z mangol: it's perplexing how many of the last decade's innovations in software have been about taking something we could already do in a fast and reliable way on our personal computers
2021-02-07T12:01:07Z mangol: and making a slow, unreliable, inflexible version of the same thing. but one that we can also run on our cell phones and exchange things with other people
2021-02-07T12:01:34Z mangol: and then we discovered that most of these "exchanges" are cat pictures and yelling at strangers :D
2021-02-07T12:02:34Z mangol: but also inspiring, because if we just take the fast, reliable, flexible stuff we had before, and invent an efficient, reliable general-purpose peer-to-peer network to put under it, we can have the best of the old and new tech
2021-02-07T12:04:47Z mangol: it would be crucially important to find a simple, effective interface between applications and the peer-to-peer network. once that interface is solid, the apps and the network can evolve independent of each other.
2021-02-07T12:05:32Z mangol: basically we need a next-generation replacement for "with-input-from-file" and "with-output-to-file" that work with a decentralized planet-wide file system instead of a local one
2021-02-07T12:05:54Z amirouche: The new trend in commercial endevors is artificial scarcity.
2021-02-07T12:06:18Z amirouche: I do not like that word "dumb" but it is a "dumbed down" version of what notion can / shall be.
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2021-02-07T12:07:03Z amirouche: also, someone that pretend to have built notion, challenged by email about my okvs / nstore work.
2021-02-07T12:07:33Z amirouche: He said he wanted to discuss nstore, I replied, then no more "great conversation"
2021-02-07T12:07:40Z amirouche: I guess he got the answers he wanted.
2021-02-07T12:08:27Z wasamasa: wat
2021-02-07T12:08:55Z wasamasa: you have notes online without any indexing, someone found them and asked you about it?
2021-02-07T12:09:31Z wasamasa: is that the actual reason for notion's business model, learning of promising ideas in other people's notes?
2021-02-07T12:10:04Z mangol: amirouche: completely agree on artificial scarcity. and yes, the spying.
2021-02-07T12:10:29Z mangol: the spying is impossible to counter without encrypted peer-to-peer traffic
2021-02-07T12:10:36Z mangol: in the long term
2021-02-07T12:11:01Z wasamasa: there is zero reason for your note taking to be online only
2021-02-07T12:11:02Z mangol: governments already hate cryptocurrency
2021-02-07T12:11:10Z amirouche: wasamasa: idk, but maybe, a lot of nstore is public, but I have private notes too in notion that are not public.
2021-02-07T12:13:06Z amirouche: also, their question was seemingly unrelated to notion, but in fact related nonetheless (plus there was a layer of p2p good hearth)
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2021-02-07T12:46:16Z mdhughes: That seems dangerous. I keep my own "private" (but not illegal or anything dangerous) stuff in Dropbox so all my devices can sync it; mostly edit with Editorial on iOS, any text editor elsewhere. Actually private I keep on my home computer only. Everything is Markdown. Publishing goes into WordPress, with JetPack's Markdown editor.
2021-02-07T12:47:06Z mdhughes: I'm reasonably sure Dropbox won't search or give out content without a search warrant, which is probably fine for what I let them hold.
2021-02-07T12:51:45Z mdhughes: Also 1password and most other synced password managers have private notes, and your entire data store is encrypted by a master password.
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2021-02-07T13:47:01Z siraben: i used to use 1password but switched to keepassxc + nextcloud, can't trust those proprietary providers
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2021-02-07T14:06:31Z amirouche: wasamasa: I could not properly fix the urls (https://hyper.dev/639e4206448b2bed3d926601bec5d736.html), but the old pages are back (copy pasted from the old blog)
2021-02-07T14:06:47Z amirouche: I need to make replacing / moving away from notion my priority.
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2021-02-07T15:18:17Z mdhughes: The problem with keepass* is it only runs the actual version on desktop, mobile is 3rd party or different versions, you can't trust that. 1password has a financial incentive to produce one secure application for every customer. And I don't think it has secure notes?
2021-02-07T15:18:32Z mdhughes: s/it has/KP has/
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2021-02-07T15:36:50Z pinoaffe: mdhughes: I mean, "3rd party" is not really that much of an issue when both are audited open source projects, right?
2021-02-07T15:37:31Z pinoaffe: I used to run keepass until one day it borked and lost some data, I switched to pass + git
2021-02-07T15:45:09Z mdhughes: Another thing we need in Scheme libraries, encryption.
2021-02-07T15:46:50Z edgar-rft: what about R7RS-encrypted? pay bitcoin to read it
2021-02-07T15:46:53Z mdhughes: I recently had to fight with some JS crypto based on a Java lib, based on an old C lib. So either I should FFI to the C lib, or add yet another in that stupid chain of bugs.
2021-02-07T15:49:14Z mdhughes: CHICKEN, to its credit, does have a couple of encryption eggs.
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2021-02-07T16:11:17Z Riastradh: Someone^TM should write libsodium.scm
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2021-02-07T16:14:57Z mangol: how complex are those crypto APIs? bytevectors in, bytevectors out?
2021-02-07T16:16:28Z mangol: crypto could be (and has been) implemented in pure scheme for fast schemes, but ensuring secret data vanishes from a GC'ed heap is a problem where seemingly no prior art exists
2021-02-07T16:16:35Z wasamasa: amirouche: thanks
2021-02-07T16:17:03Z mdhughes: Mostly just bytevectors and math, but the problem is getting a high-quality random number source.
2021-02-07T16:17:09Z wasamasa: amirouche: I hope I'll figure out how to do a more complicated nstore query using multiple conditions, probably by doing several queries instead
2021-02-07T16:17:42Z mangol: mdhughes: don't libsodium and the like find their own entropy sources internally using platform-dependent #ifdef's?
2021-02-07T16:18:21Z mdhughes: Well if it's scheme you can't just hope someoene else did that work for you.
2021-02-07T16:19:05Z wasamasa: amirouche: one of the most basic things I fail to understand is, how would I select just a single field from the triple
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2021-02-07T16:19:29Z wasamasa: amirouche: the examples I've seen so far either use (nstore-var 'foo) or the literal value, but there doesn't seem to be a don't care option
2021-02-07T16:19:33Z mangol: mdhughes: right, if implementing in pure scheme
2021-02-07T16:19:37Z mangol: for GCing secrets, some Scheme heaps support still (i.e. immovale) objects, especially for FFI. a secret bytevector could be an immovable bytevector that is explicit_bzero()ed when a dynamic extent is exited
2021-02-07T16:19:45Z mangol: *immovable
2021-02-07T16:20:46Z mangol: chez weak pairs return #!bwp objects when you try to access them after target object has been GCed; same could be used for secrets that have been erased
2021-02-07T16:22:38Z mdhughes: It's good to clear those buffers ASAP, but generally if someone's running on the same machine you're already screwed.
2021-02-07T16:23:02Z mdhughes: The big concern is data-at-rest or over-the-wire encryption.
2021-02-07T16:23:52Z mangol: crash dumps of program memory may become data-at-rest or over-the-wire :) erasing helps with that, though there's likely to be other sensitive data in them.
2021-02-07T16:24:19Z mdhughes: Don't crash in your crypto code!
2021-02-07T16:25:12Z mangol: if you don't have bytevectors that are guaranteed to be erased when leaving a dynamic extent, crashes in other code have the same effect
2021-02-07T16:29:17Z mangol: anyway, it would be neat if we could have acceptably-fast crypto in pure scheme provided that erasing and high quality randomness can be arranged
2021-02-07T16:29:56Z mangol: not sure if anything scheme-specific can or should be done to thwart side channel attacks
2021-02-07T16:31:23Z mangol: another option is to define a tiny sublanguage of scheme as a SRFI where we can only do basic arithmetic and bitwise operations on vectors of fixnums or bytes
2021-02-07T16:31:40Z mangol: Emacs has long had such a sublanguage for character encoding and decoding. i don't remember its name
2021-02-07T16:32:14Z mangol: so lispy syntax, but easy to compile to fast native code or C using a little dedicated compiler
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2021-02-07T16:33:24Z perdent: Here is a challenge I made
2021-02-07T16:33:25Z perdent:  0x1000
2021-02-07T16:33:25Z perdent: The goal of the challenge is to decrypt/retreieve the flag.
2021-02-07T16:33:25Z perdent: Let me know what you think of the challenge and if you are able to solve it, I would also like some feedback about it.
2021-02-07T16:33:25Z perdent:  chall.py: https://0bin.net/paste/6Vp1Ol8X#63MCiPitY2Wwa61IlPKm01m0ehLtHDkLfTLajZfWcLd
2021-02-07T16:33:25Z perdent: output: https://0bin.net/paste/rla4muBN#NQ5V-chtiLLeXavpa4AXYcs5K21LrduF0OpyY77oZm+
2021-02-07T16:33:29Z amirouche: wasamasa: yes you should use nstore-var in the field you want to retrieve
2021-02-07T16:33:43Z wasamasa: what about the fields I don't want to retrieve though?
2021-02-07T16:34:23Z amirouche: when you use nstore-query with nstore-where it will match and added matched values to variables in the hashmap
2021-02-07T16:34:25Z wasamasa: perdent: you're on the wrong channel for that
2021-02-07T16:35:00Z amirouche: I think the answer, is if you do not care about a variable, do not put it in nstore-where, or you can not ignore it.
2021-02-07T16:35:26Z wasamasa: I'm struggling to understand how exactly nstore-query, nstore-from and nstore-where play together
2021-02-07T16:35:42Z wasamasa: it feels like SICP to get incomprehensible errors from combining them
2021-02-07T16:35:56Z mangol: the emacs sublanguage is called CCL; help for the macro `define-ccl-program` has a description of the language
2021-02-07T16:36:07Z wasamasa: https://emacsninja.com/posts/code-conversion-language.html
2021-02-07T16:36:44Z wasamasa: finite state transducers
2021-02-07T16:37:33Z amirouche: (nstore-query x y z ...) will produce a stream of hashmap from X, then this hasmap bindings variable to values, will complete the pattern of Y with the known variables and execute that pattern produced from Y against the database, and so forth
2021-02-07T16:38:09Z amirouche: the first where clause X, will create hashmap with variables found in X.
2021-02-07T16:38:28Z amirouche: I do not know about Finite State transducers.
2021-02-07T16:38:37Z wasamasa: that's what CCL is
2021-02-07T16:38:51Z wasamasa: a tiny domain specific VM
2021-02-07T16:39:01Z amirouche: the weird errors comes from the use of generator (lazy behavior)
2021-02-07T16:39:23Z amirouche: s/generator/generators/
2021-02-07T16:39:33Z amirouche: if you make it so okvs-range returns a list, it is easier.
2021-02-07T16:40:20Z mangol: lol the slogan for Lisp Flavored Erlang is ""Taking the syntax out of distributed systems programming"
2021-02-07T16:40:31Z amirouche: (I mean, I did not see the errors you talk about, on my side generators are the source of confusion, not only with okvs or nstore)
2021-02-07T16:42:31Z wasamasa: I'm not sure where exactly they originate from, call trace comes from lmdb :<
2021-02-07T16:43:15Z amirouche: I am still busy the coming week, but I can look at the code at some point.
2021-02-07T16:43:31Z amirouche: replacing generators with lists is a big job
2021-02-07T16:43:53Z amirouche: if you change okvs-range to return list, a lot of things will change
2021-02-07T16:44:21Z wasamasa: it would make debugging a lot easier for sure
2021-02-07T16:45:28Z perdent: Whats a good channel for it?
2021-02-07T16:45:34Z wasamasa: ##security
2021-02-07T16:45:41Z wasamasa: ##crypto
2021-02-07T16:45:51Z wasamasa: #offsec
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2021-02-07T16:46:21Z wasamasa: CTFs have very little to do with programming language theory
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2021-02-07T16:46:38Z wasamasa: and honestly, your challenge looks like yet another iteration of why RSA sucks
2021-02-07T16:47:06Z wasamasa: it's like kicking a baby in the teeth
2021-02-07T16:47:13Z wasamasa: bad taste
2021-02-07T16:55:19Z wasamasa: amirouche: the error seems to happen if I use nstore-from with three variables and pipe that into nstore-where
2021-02-07T16:56:08Z amirouche: that is a problem in the procedure that select the subspace, give a sec
2021-02-07T16:56:40Z wasamasa: if I use two variables and a literal, everything is fine
2021-02-07T16:56:47Z wasamasa: if I use nstore-from only, it's fine as well
2021-02-07T16:57:36Z amirouche: wasamasa: do you have this ooops at https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-168/blob/master/srfi/168.sld#L271
2021-02-07T16:57:48Z wasamasa: nope
2021-02-07T16:58:44Z amirouche: In the code of the implementation you use, do you have a call to error in that case?
2021-02-07T16:59:25Z amirouche: oops is not helpful, I did this to avoid full database scan.
2021-02-07T16:59:33Z wasamasa: lol
2021-02-07T17:00:08Z amirouche: you may replace (error "ooops") with (car INDICES) where INDICES is the variable passed as argument of the procedure pattern->index
2021-02-07T17:00:39Z amirouche: (that is not the variable `indices` used in the named let, which is empty at that point)
2021-02-07T17:01:20Z amirouche: that  will allow nstore-from with only variables, and will yield everything inside nstore (which in fact is useful during dev)
2021-02-07T17:04:19Z wasamasa: let me give that a try
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2021-02-07T17:04:42Z wasamasa: it's cute how you're thinking so much about performance while advocating a portable implementation of a database
2021-02-07T17:05:09Z amirouche: well,
2021-02-07T17:05:13Z amirouche: nvm
2021-02-07T17:06:16Z wasamasa: wait, how is (car indices) supposed to work if indices is null
2021-02-07T17:06:47Z wasamasa: that will just give me a different error, assuming it even bubbles up
2021-02-07T17:06:56Z wasamasa: my working theory is that some lmdb transaction thing swallows errors
2021-02-07T17:10:16Z amirouche: (car indices) of the original indices variable, not the one bound inside named-let.
2021-02-07T17:10:50Z wasamasa: I see
2021-02-07T17:11:10Z perdent: (00:44:55) wasamasa: and honestly, your challenge looks like yet another iteration of why RSA sucks
2021-02-07T17:11:10Z perdent: Sucks how?
2021-02-07T17:11:31Z wasamasa: I'd like to elaborate on it, but this is the wrong channel
2021-02-07T17:11:42Z wasamasa: please go away if you don't have anything scheme-related to say
2021-02-07T17:11:55Z wasamasa: I am on all the channels I've suggested
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2021-02-07T17:13:11Z ecraven: hm.. lmdb's C API seems not as nice as kyoto cabinet's ;)
2021-02-07T17:13:39Z wasamasa: I'll learn all about that if amirouche manages convincing me that nstore is worth using
2021-02-07T17:14:14Z wasamasa: so far I'm just trying to make it work for a non-trivial query and if I fail at that, I guess some random java graph/rdf project it is instead
2021-02-07T17:14:23Z amirouche: it depends what you are doing, but if you want to do the tag matching you described previsouly, yes it is a good use case.
2021-02-07T17:14:53Z wasamasa: I have my doubts since it doesn't look like the nstore and generators API is sufficiently expressive compared to sparql
2021-02-07T17:15:01Z ecraven: amirouche: do I understand correctly that one of the srfis abstracts over any okvs (like lmdb and kyoto cabinet), and the other then implements a triplestore on top of that abstraction?
2021-02-07T17:15:14Z amirouche: ecraven: yes
2021-02-07T17:15:56Z amirouche: ecraven: except there is no cursor api with next and previous.
2021-02-07T17:16:21Z amirouche: you have to use okvs-range instead.
2021-02-07T17:17:01Z amirouche: wasamasa: is there a public repository with code I can try?
2021-02-07T17:17:26Z wasamasa: no, there isn't and honestly, I doubt it would even run considering how many adjustments I had to make to get srfi-167 and srfi-168 run
2021-02-07T17:18:01Z mangol: wasamasa: please avoid telling people to go away if they don't cause any harm besides pasting a few lines about RSA
2021-02-07T17:18:17Z amirouche: I keep thinking we should have CI with SRFI </rant>
2021-02-07T17:18:26Z mangol: the rest of us are off topic half the time as well
2021-02-07T17:18:28Z wasamasa: CI is no solution to sloppy writing
2021-02-07T17:18:42Z wasamasa: examples inside a SRFI document aren't run in CI
2021-02-07T17:18:42Z Zipheir: amirouche: It's not going to help if the idea is garbled.
2021-02-07T17:18:45Z wasamasa: they're part of prose
2021-02-07T17:18:54Z ecraven: what I think would really help is way more examples in every SRFI
2021-02-07T17:19:19Z ecraven: also, some SRFIs I've read recently clearly haven't been proof-read at all.. procedure headers have different arguments than are described in the text, obvious things like that
2021-02-07T17:19:19Z Zipheir: You can't test English!
2021-02-07T17:19:25Z wasamasa: exactly
2021-02-07T17:19:34Z ecraven: and some of the explanations are just .. not very useful unless you already *know* exactly what the function does
2021-02-07T17:19:41Z wasamasa: porting a SRFI to work on another scheme system is a great way to test it
2021-02-07T17:19:47Z wasamasa: very labor-intensive though
2021-02-07T17:20:20Z Zipheir: It depends on the SRFI.  Some complex ones are very easy to port, e.g. SRFI 135.
2021-02-07T17:20:40Z wasamasa: the problem I see with that is getting people willing to do that for you while the SRFI isn't finalized yet
2021-02-07T17:21:15Z ecraven: just write it portably in the first place :D :P
2021-02-07T17:21:24Z Zipheir: In reality, it falls to the SRFI authors to promote, i.e. to port, their work.
2021-02-07T17:21:43Z amirouche: ... and add network sockets...
2021-02-07T17:21:52Z Zipheir: Sockets are hard!
2021-02-07T17:21:59Z amirouche: ... and portable C FFI...
2021-02-07T17:22:09Z Zipheir: ... is nigh impossible.
2021-02-07T17:22:29Z amirouche: then it will take time.
2021-02-07T17:23:04Z wasamasa: amirouche: FWIW, (car indices*) doesn't fix the error, so something else is going on
2021-02-07T17:23:10Z amirouche: :/
2021-02-07T17:23:19Z wasamasa: I've renamed the original indices argument to indices* to test your suggestion
2021-02-07T17:28:12Z Zipheir: amirouche: The thing is, as Ken or Dennis said, "Sometimes it's possible for something to fill a vaccuum and still suck."
2021-02-07T17:29:33Z Zipheir: amirouche: Everyone knows about sockets, and their are dozens of Scheme approaches to them.  The challenge is *not* to "provide sockets"; it's to devise something clearly explained, usable, and based on existing work so that people want to undertake the porting effort.
2021-02-07T17:29:54Z wasamasa: it doesn't help very few people understand BSD sockets
2021-02-07T17:29:56Z Zipheir: It's not about testing, IMHO.  It's about design and quality.
2021-02-07T17:30:08Z Zipheir: Oops, s/their/there/
2021-02-07T17:32:33Z amirouche: clearly explained like srfi-167 and srfi-168 :P /s
2021-02-07T17:32:52Z amirouche: at least with sockets, you do no need to explain too much the purpose
2021-02-07T17:34:02Z Zipheir: SRFI 1 is a good example of this.  It's not as though there weren't many list libraries floating around the Lisp worlds.  That SRFI, however, is very clearly articulated, covers a lot of ground, and provides a simple-to-read and high-quality implementation.
2021-02-07T17:34:53Z Zipheir: amirouche: I can't say I find those SRFIs easy to understand.  I've tried a few times.
2021-02-07T17:35:57Z Zipheir: For example, the object/process/whatever called a "transaction" is used all over SRFI 167, but is never defined, AFAICT.
2021-02-07T17:36:55Z Zipheir: It's quite possible that I'm not learned enough in database lore to be able to make sense of this stuff, but then, the target audience for SRFIs is, I suppose, plain old Schemers.
2021-02-07T17:37:41Z amirouche: transactions allow to apply all changes and rollback all changes in case of errors.
2021-02-07T17:37:53Z amirouche: all changes made in the span of the transaction.
2021-02-07T17:38:25Z amirouche: that was a goal especially of SRFI-168, to re-use lots of other SRFI.
2021-02-07T17:38:30Z Zipheir: OK, but SRFI 167 never explains that.
2021-02-07T17:38:39Z mangol: AFAICT our community doesn't have the time and energy to make SRFIs substantially easier to understand than they already are
2021-02-07T17:39:05Z mangol: oversights have happened, and will continue to happen
2021-02-07T17:39:46Z amirouche: And, to weight mangol point of view, even if I did not rush into SRFI process, today, I would have made difference choices about the design.
2021-02-07T17:40:04Z mangol: to some degree it's caused by the SRFI process requiring too high a level of perfection, to another degree it's just limited energy no matter what process we use
2021-02-07T17:40:05Z amirouche: especially SRFI-167.
2021-02-07T17:41:53Z amirouche: did the chicken C FFI API change between C4 and C5?
2021-02-07T17:45:10Z amirouche: apparantly the answer is no: https://wiki.call-cc.org/porting-c4-to-c5#linking-to-external-libraries
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2021-02-07T18:28:06Z wasamasa: there have been some minor changes, like allowing to pass int64 types in C5 thanks to the numeric tower no longer being an optional egg to use
2021-02-07T18:29:02Z amirouche1: tx
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2021-02-07T18:30:10Z Riastradh: Need constant-time arithmetic, not something I've ever seen advertised in a Lisp system.
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2021-02-07T18:30:50Z wasamasa: at least there's no devilish compiler trying to thwart your carefully written code
2021-02-07T18:30:55Z Riastradh: In MIT Scheme, I added a primitive (get-entropy bv) a few years ago that fills a 32-byte vector with uniform random output from the OS.
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2021-02-07T18:31:40Z Riastradh: (anyone wants to turn that into a SRFI, feel free)
2021-02-07T18:32:36Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Why, because there are no devilishly smart Lisp compilers, only dumb ones?
2021-02-07T18:33:02Z wasamasa: I'm not aware of any abusing undefined behavior to the degree of gcc and friends
2021-02-07T18:33:12Z Riastradh: undefined behaviour is not the issue
2021-02-07T18:33:22Z Riastradh: undefined behaviour is not relevant at all here
2021-02-07T18:34:02Z wasamasa: what was the issue then with the ssh entropy thing on debian?
2021-02-07T18:34:21Z Riastradh: So back in 2006...
2021-02-07T18:37:18Z Riastradh: OpenSSL has a function RAND_add(buf, nbytes) which hashes data into the PRNG that is used to derive keys.
2021-02-07T18:39:43Z Riastradh: OpenSSL also has a function RAND_bytes(buf, nbytes) which draws data from the PRNG and stores them in buf.
2021-02-07T18:40:19Z Riastradh: These functions both had a line that reads:  MD_Update(&m,buf,j)
2021-02-07T18:41:41Z Riastradh: (The code has since changed, but you can see what the looked like at the time here: https://git.openssl.org/?p=openssl.git;a=blob;f=crypto/rand/md_rand.c;h=6e10f6ef676184ffb7d18b2fb55641dbb7bbe0b6;hb=f254b540b8746c24bd0bb2a5249c7b30004a42f2  ssleay_rand_add is the implementation of the RAND_add API function, and ssleay_rand_bytes implements RAND_bytes.)
2021-02-07T18:41:41Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/wQgLNJIQPm
2021-02-07T18:42:41Z Riastradh: Inside RAND_add, this line MD_Update(&m,buf,j) is the only way that data from the specified buf -- which contains, e.g., output of /dev/urandom -- actually affects the PRNG.
2021-02-07T18:43:21Z Riastradh: Inside RAND_bytes, the line MD_Update(&m,buf,j) reads from the user's output buffer -- which is likely to contain uninitialized garbage.  It doesn't _hurt_ to hash that into the PRNG, but it also isn't security-critical, and it is technically undefined behaviour.
2021-02-07T18:44:15Z Riastradh: So the call in RAND_bytes is #ifndef PURIFY, which means it gets skipped if OpenSSL is built for the context of checking for the undefined behaviour of reading uninitialized buffers.
2021-02-07T18:44:55Z Riastradh: (e.g., with valgrind)
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2021-02-07T18:45:25Z Riastradh: That is, if you build OpenSSL with PURIFY, then you skip the undefined behaviour, and everything is fine.
2021-02-07T18:46:12Z Riastradh: A Debian developer ran some applications under valgrind, and found that valgrind was highlighting problems with them -- these _applications_ were trying to use uninitialized memory, and the specific place where the uninitialized memory got used was the MD_Update(&m,buf,j) line in RAND_add.
2021-02-07T18:46:19Z Riastradh: This is because the _applications_ were doing something like:
2021-02-07T18:46:30Z Riastradh: unsigned char buf[32];  /* gimme an uninitialized stack buffer */
2021-02-07T18:46:35Z Riastradh: RAND_add(buf, 32);
2021-02-07T18:47:08Z Riastradh: The Debian developer didn't look that far, though, and just saw -- `huh, MD_Update(&m,buf,j) seems to be reading uninitialized data, and the other place where that line occurs is wrapped in #ifndef PURIFY'.
2021-02-07T18:47:24Z perdent: Riastradh: (00:31:41) perdent: Here is a challenge I made
2021-02-07T18:47:24Z perdent: (00:31:41) perdent:  0x1000
2021-02-07T18:47:24Z perdent: (00:31:41) perdent: The goal of the challenge is to decrypt/retreieve the flag.
2021-02-07T18:47:24Z perdent: (00:31:41) perdent: Let me know what you think of the challenge and if you are able to solve it, I would also like some feedback about it.
2021-02-07T18:47:24Z perdent: (00:31:41) perdent:  chall.py: https://0bin.net/paste/6Vp1Ol8X#63MCiPitY2Wwa61IlPKm01m0ehLtHDkLfTLajZfWcLd
2021-02-07T18:47:25Z perdent: (00:31:41) perdent: output: https://0bin.net/paste/rla4muBN#NQ5V-chtiLLeXavpa4AXYcs5K21LrduF0OpyY77oZm+
2021-02-07T18:47:33Z wasamasa: FFS
2021-02-07T18:47:42Z perdent: I know you enjoy crypto
2021-02-07T18:48:11Z perdent: And saw you in this channel
2021-02-07T18:48:23Z wasamasa: I enjoy my wall of text not being interrupted by a worthless RSA challenge
2021-02-07T18:48:24Z perdent: Let me know what you think
2021-02-07T18:49:18Z Riastradh: So the Debian developer (Kurt Roeckx) asked about it on the openssl-dev list: https://marc.info/?l=openssl-dev&m=114651085826293&w=2
2021-02-07T18:49:38Z Riastradh: However, it turns out that in 2006, the openssl-dev list isn't really where openssl developers discussed openssl development.
2021-02-07T18:50:19Z Riastradh: So the response he got wasn't very attentive: https://marc.info/?l=openssl-dev&m=114652287210110&w=2  `If it helps with debugging, I'm in favor of removing them.'
2021-02-07T18:50:40Z Riastradh: So he removed the MD_Update(&m,buf,j) line in RAND_add.
2021-02-07T18:50:47Z Riastradh: And nobody noticed that this was a problem until 2008.
2021-02-07T18:51:37Z Riastradh: wasamasa: So no, the Debian OpenSSL debacle had nothing to do with compilers optimizing away undefined behaviour, and everything to do with (a) miscommunication between Debian and OpenSSL developers and (b) _developers_ `optimizing away' the critical code that actually incorporates entropy into the computation.
2021-02-07T18:52:02Z wasamasa: hm
2021-02-07T18:52:14Z wasamasa: still, the lack of understanding of undefined behavior was what prompted that change
2021-02-07T18:52:29Z Riastradh: Yes, but it had nothing to do with clever compilers.
2021-02-07T18:52:34Z wasamasa: I don't see it being exploited outside of memory-unsafe languages
2021-02-07T18:52:37Z Riastradh: The same thing could easily happen in Scheme.  What's (make-vector 32) filled with?
2021-02-07T18:53:12Z Riastradh: It has nothing to do with memory-safety!
2021-02-07T18:53:37Z wasamasa: it is a lot more common to think on that level when your language gives you no seatbelts
2021-02-07T18:53:47Z Riastradh: Even if you take out the `undefined behaviour => unlimited consequences' aspect of C, and reduce it to `not specified what values are read out, but you get _something_', exactly the same problem could happen.
2021-02-07T18:54:15Z Zipheir: perdent: Please stop spamming the channel.
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2021-02-07T18:55:25Z Zipheir: Oh, it's on other channels as well...
2021-02-07T18:55:34Z Riastradh: perdent: Sorry, not really interested in solving your CTF problem for you.
2021-02-07T18:55:44Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zipheir
2021-02-07T18:55:52Z wasamasa: amusingly on none of the ones I've suggested instead
2021-02-07T18:56:16Z perdent [~zaifir@98.4.178.27] has been kicked from #scheme by Zipheir ("Spamming")
2021-02-07T18:56:31Z ChanServ has set mode -o Zipheir
2021-02-07T18:56:47Z wasamasa: Riastradh: yes, I see that it could happen in a scheme library, but I consider the odds terribly small, it's likelier to be some programming mistake quickly discovered by someone writing a non-crypto library
2021-02-07T18:57:21Z Riastradh: The odds are small only because nobody does crypto in Scheme, and nobody has written any uninitialized-memory taint trackers like valgrind for Scheme.
2021-02-07T18:57:47Z wasamasa: I wouldn't say nobody :D
2021-02-07T18:58:01Z wasamasa: https://gitlab.com/weinholt/TerribleTLS
2021-02-07T18:58:07Z Riastradh: heh
2021-02-07T18:58:10Z Riastradh: `Terrible' TLS
2021-02-07T18:58:28Z wasamasa: it's a refreshingly honest name, just like the awful web framework
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2021-02-07T19:00:06Z mangol: also https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/awful-ssl :D but it's SSL for awful. not sure whether it's awful SSL
2021-02-07T19:00:07Z Riastradh: Anyway, for serious crypto implementation work, you really need, as a bare minimum, constant-time 32-bit or 64-bit arithmetic operations: + - ^ & | ~ and constant-distance shift/rotate.
2021-02-07T19:00:41Z wasamasa: I'm not proud of maintaining the openssl egg, but yes, awful-ssl is just integrating that into awful
2021-02-07T19:01:27Z Riastradh: On top of that, you really also want 32x32->64 or 64x64->128 integer multiply (and as a treat, GF(2^p) multiply), and for real performance you need SIMD vector operations, including vector permute/shuffle/table.
2021-02-07T19:02:01Z wasamasa: I remember being surprised to discover openssl has a perlish assembler thing for optimized crypto primitives
2021-02-07T19:02:11Z mangol: (insert lame joke about a garbage-collecting version of windows that uninstalls the whole OS on boot)
2021-02-07T19:02:17Z Riastradh: Yep, it's pretty grody.
2021-02-07T19:02:25Z wasamasa: it's still there
2021-02-07T19:02:31Z Zipheir: I wonder how the portable libtls/libressl project is going.
2021-02-07T19:02:44Z Riastradh: `portable libtls/libressl project'?
2021-02-07T19:03:11Z Zipheir: OpenBSD was providing Linux ports of libressl, at least.
2021-02-07T19:03:22Z Zipheir: Well, I suppose libtls is portable already.
2021-02-07T19:03:28Z mangol: https://github.com/libressl-portable
2021-02-07T19:03:31Z Riastradh: It's kind of a pain for everyone because it's API- and ABI-incompatible with OpenSSL.
2021-02-07T19:03:36Z Zipheir: Yes.
2021-02-07T19:04:01Z Zipheir: There was no way they were going to be able to avoid eventually diverging.
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2021-02-07T19:04:10Z Riastradh: So most projects don't bother making things work with libressl, and most development effort these days is on openssl, not libressl.
2021-02-07T19:04:23Z wasamasa: except GNU stuff using gnutls
2021-02-07T19:04:40Z Zipheir: Oh jeez, gnutls *is* still around.
2021-02-07T19:04:45Z Riastradh: And much as I criticize the openssl API and past development practices, there actually are a lot of serious people doing good work on openssl these days.
2021-02-07T19:04:51Z wasamasa: and libgcrypt for gpg
2021-02-07T19:05:07Z Riastradh: heh
2021-02-07T19:05:13Z Riastradh: libgcrypt is a disaster
2021-02-07T19:05:33Z Riastradh: (gpg too)
2021-02-07T19:06:45Z mangol: would GC pauses present a problem for crypto in Scheme BTW?
2021-02-07T19:06:55Z Riastradh: no
2021-02-07T19:14:36Z Riastradh: So anyway, the tools aren't there to write safe crypto primitives in Scheme, and definitely not there to write safe fast crypto primitives in Scheme.  Wouldn't hurt to expose a primitive to draw a 32-byte vector uniformly at random from the OS, but to do anything on top of that -- best to just wrap an existing library like libsodium.
2021-02-07T19:19:53Z jcowan: mangol: You could start with https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/BottomScheme.md
2021-02-07T19:21:55Z jcowan: ecraven: which SRFIs have those problems?
2021-02-07T19:24:17Z jcowan: wasamasa: Babies don't have teeth
2021-02-07T19:27:50Z Zipheir: For pattern-matching users: How would you write, for clarity, a function matching two arguments x and y which are also to appear in the bodies of each clause?  e.g. the sort of thing which, in Haskell, might be written `f x@(C a b) y@(C d e) = ...`
2021-02-07T19:29:05Z Zipheir: It seems that the best one can do is (match (list x y) ((($ C a b) ($ C d e)) ...) ...)
2021-02-07T19:32:06Z Zipheir: (Side note: Matching records really sucks.  If I didn't define this record, how do I know what fields I need to match on?)
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2021-02-07T19:59:58Z jcowan: Zipheir: It depends on whether the field names are exposed.  A cons is a record, but everyone knows the names of its field.
2021-02-07T20:00:35Z Zipheir: jcowan: The catch is when there are unexposed fields.
2021-02-07T20:01:08Z jcowan: That's when you use the named-field match pattern.
2021-02-07T20:01:14Z Zipheir: Ah, true.
2021-02-07T20:01:21Z Zipheir: I forgot about that feature.
2021-02-07T20:02:51Z jcowan: In fact if I had that I'd never use the other.
2021-02-07T20:07:08Z Zipheir: The syntax can get a bit unwieldy: (match (point x y) (($ <point> (point-x a) (point-y b)) ...)).  SRFI 204 describes a Gauche extension that makes it possible to use the field name, however.
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2021-02-07T20:08:22Z jcowan nods
2021-02-07T20:09:03Z jcowan: Since record introspection is not portable off R6RS, it's a problem.
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2021-02-07T20:10:27Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2021-02-07T20:14:15Z amirouche: how useful / harmful is record introspection ?
2021-02-07T20:14:45Z amirouche: I got some use for them, but not sure whether it would make other things worse
2021-02-07T20:16:43Z jcowan: I think there is no harm except the cost of carrying the introspection baggage at run time when you don't need it (as you don't, most of the time).
2021-02-07T20:17:19Z amirouche: maybe it can use different form like `define-record-type/i`
2021-02-07T20:17:55Z Oxyd: Maybe introspection garbage could be available only to macro transformers.
2021-02-07T20:19:14Z mangol: Oxyd: excellent idea
2021-02-07T20:19:57Z Oxyd: Kind of presupposes procedural macros, though. Probably wouldn't be very useful with syntax-rules.
2021-02-07T20:20:43Z amirouche: Oxyd: that does not cover, my use case, where i need to pass the arguments of make-my-record in the correct order (from database fetch)
2021-02-07T20:20:52Z mangol: in the case of R6RS, it comes standard with procedural macros
2021-02-07T20:21:06Z amirouche: (again just chatting, I have no opinion on the subject)
2021-02-07T20:21:16Z mangol: chatting is good for generating ideas
2021-02-07T20:21:27Z jcowan: There is already R6RS syntax for introspectable/non-introspectable record types
2021-02-07T20:22:31Z mangol: jcowan: are the R6RS->R7RS condition system porting problems due to record inspection?
2021-02-07T20:23:17Z mangol: each R6RS condition type has a matching predicate; no matter what kind of exception an R7RS implementation raises in a particular situation, it could define the R6RS predicate to match that kind
2021-02-07T20:24:07Z mangol: but it couldn't easily give the same guarantee if R6RS programs use record inspection to peek inside the exception, assuming it's a standard kind of condition object (i.e. which in R6RS is a record)
2021-02-07T20:25:15Z jcowan: That is one problem, but another is the exception hierarchy: there is no good way to integrate different hierarchies in the general case.
2021-02-07T20:25:52Z mangol: hmm. i just realized i never checked whether or not R6RS conditions are _inspectable_ records
2021-02-07T20:25:54Z jcowan: Indeed, just plain record accessors wouldn't work either, even without inspection
2021-02-07T20:26:39Z mangol: can't you pretend to have two different hierarchies? one used by the predicates exported to R6RS programs, one for implementation-native predicates
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2021-02-07T20:29:29Z mangol: why wouldn't the record accessors work without inspection? they're black-box procedures, right? so they could check the type of the object given to them
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2021-02-07T20:30:00Z mangol: if it's the right kind of record, use record getter; if it's implemantation-native exception, use something else to get equivalent information
2021-02-07T20:30:53Z mangol: black-box procedures can lie about everything unless they're asked to testify under oath that this is a record we're dealing with
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2021-02-07T20:32:43Z Zipheir: A bigger issue associated with record-matching is that records are not types, but they are what we use to represent types.  We generally want to match on the type, not its representation.
2021-02-07T20:33:58Z jcowan: How are records not types?
2021-02-07T20:34:26Z jcowan: Records have predicates, and predicates are isomorphic to types
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2021-02-07T20:34:57Z Zipheir: That was not well-stated.  What I meant is that a record may, in some cases, be just an implementation of an abstract type.
2021-02-07T20:35:50Z Zipheir: So, e.g., I'd like to match (just 1 2 3) as a multiple-valued Just, and not as a record containing a reification of those values.
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2021-02-07T20:36:10Z amirouche: another question, is it possible to have the hiearachy of conditions, but without the being records themselfs. All conditions would be (make-condition symbol message args)
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2021-02-07T20:36:26Z Zipheir: This gets back to the "view" concept, again.
2021-02-07T20:36:41Z amirouche: (+ a possibly a parent condition)
2021-02-07T20:37:16Z jcowan: The general solution is views, which were put in Haskell and then taken out again, but are available in Pure.
2021-02-07T20:37:27Z amirouche: (what I really like in exception system, is to be able to possibly catch broad set of exception e.g. everything that comes from sockets
2021-02-07T20:38:06Z jcowan: RIght, and that is the least portable part.
2021-02-07T20:38:57Z mangol: are views something like "specify how a type pretends to also be another type"
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2021-02-07T20:40:39Z amirouche: diamond inheritance
2021-02-07T20:40:42Z amirouche runs
2021-02-07T20:40:46Z Zipheir: What?
2021-02-07T20:41:16Z amirouche: (dimond inheritance is the consequence of multiple base class in OOP)
2021-02-07T20:41:23Z Zipheir: mangol: IIUC it's an established projection from a value of a given type to an easily matchable form, e.g. a list.
2021-02-07T20:41:48Z mangol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_(dog) "Diamond was, according to legend, Sir Isaac Newton's favourite dog, which, by upsetting a candle, set fire to manuscripts containing his notes on experiments conducted over the course of twenty years."
2021-02-07T20:42:03Z Zipheir: Good story.
2021-02-07T20:42:42Z mangol: "The story is largely apocryphal: according to another account, Newton simply left a window open when he went to church, and the candle was knocked over by a gust of wind. In fact, some historians claim that Newton never owned pets."
2021-02-07T20:42:45Z Zipheir: I need a OOP/Martin-Löf dictionary sometimes...
2021-02-07T20:43:34Z mangol: OOP-Martian dictionary
2021-02-07T20:43:40Z Zipheir: Sounds like Jimi Hendrix and the Axis: Bold as Love master tapes.
2021-02-07T20:44:05Z mangol: <obligatory Smoke on the Water reference>
2021-02-07T20:44:32Z amirouche: oh no Zipheir will also quote Jimi Hendrix...
2021-02-07T20:45:01Z amirouche: rudybot: what about Jimix Hendrix
2021-02-07T20:45:07Z rudybot: amirouche: what was novel about hendrix specifically?
2021-02-07T20:45:29Z amirouche: rudybot is clueless about hendrix. Please Zipheir proceed :)
2021-02-07T20:46:06Z mangol: "Newton's lab fire" should be a math metal band
2021-02-07T20:46:09Z Zipheir: Nah, I don't usually.  His lyrics all seem like psychedelic stoner-speak.
2021-02-07T20:46:46Z Zipheir: mangol: Aww yeah.
2021-02-07T20:46:47Z amirouche: I do not understand lyrics in english music :/ neither in the language of my parents :/
2021-02-07T20:47:41Z amirouche: (I should dive into metal, the only sort of meta I know is incubus)
2021-02-07T20:49:02Z amirouche: (my favorite song is 'megalomaniac' uspol related, but the idea is interesting outside us)
2021-02-07T20:51:10Z mangol: a lot of lyrics are intentionally vague
2021-02-07T20:51:31Z amirouche: it is Bush presidency...
2021-02-07T20:51:43Z amirouche: IIRC it is related
2021-02-07T20:52:20Z amirouche: anyway! off-topic and I hijacked the convo
2021-02-07T20:52:25Z mangol: :D it's ok
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2021-02-07T20:54:04Z Zipheir: Gone. :(
2021-02-07T20:54:41Z mangol: he'll be back. none of us did anything wrong.
2021-02-07T20:54:49Z mangol: least of all him
2021-02-07T20:56:34Z mangol: there seems to be a lot of stress in the air lately for many unrelated reasons. sometimes things pile up in the same time period.
2021-02-07T20:57:40Z Zipheir: Despite the high volume on this channel lately, it's been pretty peaceful.
2021-02-07T20:58:14Z mangol: true though. we de-escalate quickly
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2021-02-07T21:04:09Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/BottomScheme.md is a good starting point, I think, for really trivial Schemeoids
2021-02-07T21:04:55Z jcowan: Nowadays the tribes don't fight and actually cooperate on issues of common concern.
2021-02-07T21:05:49Z mangol: yeah scheme is in a good place
2021-02-07T21:06:20Z mangol: i guess a lot of the arguing is still the ghost of AI Winter
2021-02-07T21:06:44Z mangol: that explains why Clojure doesn't have it
2021-02-07T21:07:34Z mangol: advantage of the Java and square brackets diet
2021-02-07T21:10:18Z mangol: Bottom Scheme is neat; thanks for writing it down
2021-02-07T21:14:10Z mangol: since we have homogeneous numeric vectors, i wonder how easy it would be to make a simple number crunching sublanguage that uses them as inputs and outputs
2021-02-07T21:14:53Z mangol: and provides the usual CPU arithmetic primitives, maybe simple branching. could maybe use vectors for SIMD operations too.
2021-02-07T21:16:17Z Oxyd: Interesting that Bottom Scheme provides internal defines.
2021-02-07T21:16:24Z mangol: by comparing the popular SIMD instruction sets and looking at common crypto/DSP algorithms it should be reasobly easy to figure out what the common operations are
2021-02-07T21:16:41Z dieggsy: woah, i missed so much conversation
2021-02-07T21:17:09Z dieggsy: Riastradh: re: get-entropy, Chicken has something similar in random-bytes
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2021-02-07T22:23:48Z jcowan: Oxyd: Given the choice between letrec* and internal defines, I thought the latter were easier to understand.
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2021-02-08T05:07:38Z perdent: Hey can anyone convert my solution to Scheme etc? Curious to see how it would look in functional language and what the speed difference would be? https://gofile.io/d/2hsZEM Run with wasmtime ./wasmpwn.wasm --dir ./
2021-02-08T05:17:38Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zipheir
2021-02-08T05:18:18Z amirouche: -_-'
2021-02-08T05:18:38Z Zipheir has set mode +b *!*perdent@101.175.174.*
2021-02-08T05:18:38Z perdent [~zaifir@98.4.178.27] has been kicked from #scheme by Zipheir (Please don't spam the channel or ask people to open suspicious archives.)
2021-02-08T05:18:51Z ChanServ has set mode -o Zipheir
2021-02-08T05:26:11Z mdhughes: I haven't looked at bit-level performance, but for my kind of number-crunching, the fx* functions do much much better than general math.
2021-02-08T05:26:39Z mdhughes: But FFI is the easiest way to guarantee you're doing ASM/C if you want ASM/C.
2021-02-08T05:27:47Z amirouche: tx!
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2021-02-08T05:30:08Z mdhughes: … Tho fx* isn't in R7? That's suboptimal if it's not there at the language level.
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2021-02-08T05:31:21Z Zipheir: fx* is in SRFI 143.
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2021-02-08T05:32:59Z Zipheir: And exact integers are required by R7RS small, so it's just a matter of providing that library of fixnum operations.
2021-02-08T05:33:53Z mdhughes: exact includes both fixnum and bignum, so there's no guarantee of performance.
2021-02-08T05:34:55Z mdhughes: hah, and the chibi impl is just (define fx+ +) and so on.
2021-02-08T05:38:59Z Zipheir: That's the way it goes.  The good news is that there are no Schemes without fixnums, AFAIK.
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2021-02-08T09:50:00Z wasamasa: I've had a conversation with perdent in a /query now and I'm reasonably sure they won't bother this channel again
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2021-02-08T09:51:12Z ecraven: amirouche: hey
2021-02-08T09:51:15Z ecraven: back now
2021-02-08T09:54:37Z mangol: wasamasa: thank you for going the extra mile
2021-02-08T09:56:45Z wasamasa: I'm just a curious cat, wondering why they'd target this channel specifically, seems to be a mixture of curiosity on their behalf (is there any point in converting their C++ solution to scheme) and arrogance (someone should do this work for me with nothing in return because it's totally worth it)
2021-02-08T09:57:34Z wasamasa: I clarified that there is little point in doing it, it would cost much time/money to do it and that it's not worth it unless you want to learn something in depth
2021-02-08T09:57:47Z wasamasa: and they didn't, so that was the end of the story
2021-02-08T09:58:20Z wasamasa: especially not after I clarified how much I charge to deal with people expecting unreasonable things from me (AKA customers)
2021-02-08T09:58:58Z mangol: if they had no malicious intent that's the most important part. i was starting to worry it's some kind of baiting with the wasm links and stuff.
2021-02-08T09:59:17Z wasamasa: no, it was solely about the .cc file solving the challenge
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2021-02-08T10:00:37Z wasamasa: written in an imperative style, so a mechanical scheme conversion wouldn't win you anything :P
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2021-02-08T10:01:09Z mangol: ambitious young people often get fixated on particular challenges that may not contribute to solving a larger goal
2021-02-08T10:01:12Z wasamasa: it's funny because I've had the conversation of porting the library used for the solution to scheme, but it's an arduous task
2021-02-08T10:01:25Z wasamasa: with another lisp enthusiast on a hacking-related network
2021-02-08T10:01:35Z wasamasa: something I'd estimate two full work weeks of effort for
2021-02-08T10:01:57Z mangol: :)
2021-02-08T10:02:03Z wasamasa: because you'd have to deal with sockets, subprocess control, buffering, asynchronous waiting, pattern matching, ...
2021-02-08T10:02:49Z mangol: so we could start porting RSA and end up with that Go/Java-size standard library for Scheme
2021-02-08T10:02:57Z ecraven: which library is that?
2021-02-08T10:03:01Z wasamasa: I recall Oleg solving a tiny part of it though, an expect-like library for subprocess control
2021-02-08T10:03:03Z wasamasa: pwntools
2021-02-08T10:03:14Z wasamasa: it gives you a very neat API to solve CTF challenges
2021-02-08T10:03:20Z ecraven: I'm fighing foundationdb right now ;)
2021-02-08T10:03:22Z wasamasa: designed for writing throwaway scripts
2021-02-08T10:03:44Z wasamasa: it's also useful for writing exploits in general
2021-02-08T10:04:26Z mangol: wonder if there's any CVEs involving Scheme yet
2021-02-08T10:04:32Z wasamasa: there are indeed
2021-02-08T10:04:56Z wasamasa: I recall a DNS rebinding one for guile's REPL allowing a browser tab to evaluate arbitrary scheme code
2021-02-08T10:05:04Z mangol: lol
2021-02-08T10:05:11Z mangol: so we do have scheme in the browser
2021-02-08T10:05:16Z wasamasa: I also inadvertedly helped a CHICKEN maintainer discover two memory-related vulnerabilities
2021-02-08T10:05:33Z wasamasa: I just reported the crash and they handed in two CVEs
2021-02-08T10:05:50Z mangol: crash and burn
2021-02-08T10:06:07Z mangol: in other news, the server admin of http://community.schemewiki.org/ responded to our inquiries. as speculated, Anton runs it. he doesn't have much time to tend to it so we'll work out how to handle its future maintenance.
2021-02-08T10:07:01Z wasamasa: https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2016-8606/
2021-02-08T10:07:19Z wasamasa: slime is most likely affected by the same problem
2021-02-08T10:08:32Z wasamasa: another variation of the same problem: http://jgkamat.gitlab.io/blog/next-rce.html
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2021-02-08T10:17:42Z mangol: what's the common enabling factor for those exploits? a lisp REPL opens a TCP socket that accepts local and/or remote connections (depending on whether it's bound to localhost or 0.0.0.0) without authentication?
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2021-02-08T10:18:22Z wasamasa: DNS rebinding
2021-02-08T10:19:15Z wasamasa: a browser request towards a host may end up resolving to 127.0.0.1
2021-02-08T10:19:54Z wasamasa: this allows accessing local services listening on localhost
2021-02-08T10:20:58Z wasamasa: https://danielmiessler.com/blog/dns-rebinding-explained/
2021-02-08T10:21:01Z mangol: meaning a remote website can access a local TCP socket on the computer of the person browsing the remote website
2021-02-08T10:21:38Z mangol: and the JS running on behalf of the remote website can phone home to send back information or take commands?
2021-02-08T10:21:59Z wasamasa: there's usually some limitation on behalf of the browser that makes it a send-only operation
2021-02-08T10:22:07Z wasamasa: but this may be more than enough
2021-02-08T10:22:44Z mangol: send back password hashes for cracking, sshd configuration, etc.
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2021-02-08T10:23:34Z wasamasa: if you can send code to a guile repl which can end up spawning a reverse shell that connects to your machine and allows executing arbitrary commands on the victim machine, yeah, game over
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2021-02-08T10:25:21Z mangol: right. and the first line of defense is never to put a REPL behind an unauthenticated TCP (or UDP) socket
2021-02-08T10:25:30Z mangol: even if you think it's local only
2021-02-08T10:26:55Z wasamasa: that was the fix for a bunch of torrent clients and next browser
2021-02-08T10:27:00Z wasamasa: not sure about guile: https://blog.lizzie.io/exploiting-CVE-2016-8606.html
2021-02-08T10:27:14Z wasamasa: yeah, no: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/commit/?h=stable-2.0&id=08c021916dbd3a235a9f9cc33df4c418c0724e03
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2021-02-08T10:30:37Z mangol: whoa. quite a hack.
2021-02-08T10:31:12Z mangol: wouldn't it make more sense to require some kind of randomly cookie to authenticate each connection to the REPL before it accepts commands?
2021-02-08T10:31:12Z wasamasa: the blog post is instructive, a fun way of encoding scheme code
2021-02-08T10:31:23Z wasamasa: well, yes, but I imagine this to break compatibility
2021-02-08T10:31:37Z wasamasa: might be the reason why SLIME won't do it
2021-02-08T10:31:45Z wasamasa: it would break all third-party implementations
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2021-02-08T10:49:47Z ManDay: re rebinding attack: that's not limited to javascript. browsers are a tool of evil, even an <img> will do
2021-02-08T10:50:30Z ManDay: browser sees `src=`, browser does whatever `src=` tells it to
2021-02-08T11:04:38Z mangol: wasamasa: do you recall there being an api.call-cc.org (chickadee) interface in one of the Chicken Emacs packages? that would be immediately useful.
2021-02-08T11:04:53Z wasamasa: I wrote one for chicken-doc specifically
2021-02-08T11:06:50Z mangol: what's the usual way to install the emacs part of chicken-doc? we should get all this stuff into MELPA
2021-02-08T11:07:14Z wasamasa: it doesn't do incremental completion like the online thing, for that I'd need a persistent process or some web API
2021-02-08T11:07:20Z wasamasa: and helm or whatever
2021-02-08T11:07:50Z mangol: or periodic dumps of the index provided by the chickadee maintainers
2021-02-08T11:08:01Z wasamasa: that's part of chicken-doc administration
2021-02-08T11:09:28Z mangol: https://github.com/chicken-contrib is still waiting for your contribution :) if you can handle the moving-and-organizing repos part, I'm happy to do whatever is needed for MELPA; have several packages there already
2021-02-08T11:09:36Z wasamasa: yeah, I know
2021-02-08T11:13:23Z wasamasa: the usual way is to download the single file, put it in some directory on load-path and load it
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2021-02-08T15:32:02Z Zipheir: wasamasa: OK, thanks for talking to them.
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2021-02-08T15:59:47Z mangol: are there other Emacs clones written in Scheme besides Edwin?
2021-02-08T16:00:15Z mangol: and how deeply tied is Edwin to MIT Scheme in particular?
2021-02-08T16:01:38Z wasamasa: there's this jemacs thing written in java and scheme
2021-02-08T16:01:56Z mangol: right. it's mostly in java AFAICT, but extensible via Kawa
2021-02-08T16:02:05Z mangol: portable Scheme Emacs is on my mind. standardize the core editing API (by copying mainline Emacs APIs), factor into R7RS libraries.
2021-02-08T16:02:34Z mangol: permit multiple implementations of that core. ship user libraries (editing modes, etc.) built on top of that core as R7RS libraries
2021-02-08T16:02:37Z wasamasa: I suspect though that replacing elisp with scheme will make it less, not more hackable
2021-02-08T16:03:06Z wasamasa: no more dynamic binding for everything declared as special variable
2021-02-08T16:03:16Z mangol: does JEmacs use elisp instead of Scheme? kawa has at least some experimental Common Lisp support
2021-02-08T16:03:21Z wasamasa: it uses both
2021-02-08T16:03:26Z mangol: nice
2021-02-08T16:04:03Z mangol: anyway, if you think mainline Emacs should go toward CL instead of Scheme then I agree. for small Emacs that don't want to carry an entire CL env around, Scheme is nice
2021-02-08T16:04:10Z wasamasa: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-paper.html#SEC15
2021-02-08T16:05:02Z wasamasa: CL is indeed closer to elisp and designed to hacking on a system as it runs
2021-02-08T16:05:13Z wasamasa: there are some scheme systems with similar capabilities
2021-02-08T16:05:21Z wasamasa: but it's nowhere near standardized
2021-02-08T16:05:32Z mangol: MIT Scheme is probably the "most interactive" of all Scheme implementations
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2021-02-08T16:06:18Z mangol: it would be fun to find a subset of Lisp that such that code in that subset is valid Emacs Lisp and Common Lisp simultaneously
2021-02-08T16:06:36Z mangol: maybe with light portability shims
2021-02-08T16:06:48Z mangol: would ease the path toward real CL-based Emacs
2021-02-08T16:07:12Z mangol: the MELPA cognoscenti could voluntarily opt to write their elisp packages in that dialect
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2021-02-08T16:09:29Z mangol: as for small Emacs clones for when you don't want to install a 100 MiB editor, Scheme would be just the ticket.
2021-02-08T16:09:40Z wasamasa: well, I doubt it will happen
2021-02-08T16:09:49Z wasamasa: there is a price to be paid for APIs that work across languages
2021-02-08T16:10:01Z wasamasa: and there are plenty non-CL APIs in emacs that are heavily used
2021-02-08T16:10:07Z wasamasa: sometimes to the degree of relying on bugs
2021-02-08T16:10:23Z wasamasa: they aren't aware of programming against a standard because there is none
2021-02-08T16:10:50Z mangol: many of the best elisp hackers know and respect CL though
2021-02-08T16:11:20Z mangol: every few years someone writes a blog post "is now finally the time to rewrite emacs in CL?"
2021-02-08T16:12:18Z wasamasa: a bunch of nonsense that is
2021-02-08T16:12:32Z wasamasa: there isn't nearly enough CL people willing to work on a project as gnarly as emacs
2021-02-08T16:12:45Z wasamasa: the bits I've seen so far were about emacs-inspired editors with no packages whatsoever
2021-02-08T16:12:58Z wasamasa: no such thing as guilemacs
2021-02-08T16:14:30Z mangol: it's not that gnarly if package authors agree to work together with the CL Emacs implementers toward compatibility
2021-02-08T16:14:55Z mangol: if they don't agree, then i agree that it's daunting
2021-02-08T16:15:25Z ecraven: there *are* a few rewrites in CL.. hemlock and climacs, at least
2021-02-08T16:15:51Z mangol: the non-GNU-compatible CL Emacs variants are standard lisp curse fare; not sure whether or not their authors could be persuaded to go for GNU compatibility.
2021-02-08T16:16:03Z wasamasa: if it doesn't run elisp, it's not a rewrite
2021-02-08T16:16:28Z mangol: well, maybe not all of them Lisp curse, since things like Hemlock are so old that GNU Emacs probably didn't yet have the dominant position it does now
2021-02-08T16:16:51Z wasamasa: portable hemlock page says emacs-like editor
2021-02-08T16:17:41Z ecraven: ZWEI!
2021-02-08T16:18:51Z mangol: it's not important whether or not it satisfies someone's criteria for being a rewrite; it's important whether it runs a useful set of packages
2021-02-08T16:19:03Z wasamasa: well, it doesn't even do color highlighting
2021-02-08T16:19:14Z mangol: if a critical mass of packages gets going, more and more people will patch their elisp to be CL compatible
2021-02-08T16:19:20Z wasamasa: replacing emacs with that is a joke
2021-02-08T16:19:41Z mangol: i agree that Hemlock and that CLIM Emacs are not on track to be a replacement
2021-02-08T16:20:07Z mangol: Rust Emacs explicitly tries to be, but why replace an ELisp interpreter written in C with an ELisp interpreter written in RUst
2021-02-08T16:20:17Z wasamasa: because it crashes less on macos
2021-02-08T16:21:21Z wasamasa: and if it crashes, it does so immediately instead of far later than the error source
2021-02-08T16:21:33Z Zipheir: GNU Emacs is really far to big to be replaced.  By the time anyone ports a majority of existing packages, it's likely the Emacs devs will have added new features that make current packages incompatible.
2021-02-08T16:21:54Z Zipheir: It's not as bad as trying to keep up with Chrome, but it's similar.
2021-02-08T16:21:55Z mangol: emacs devs haven't added much in the way of new features in this millennium
2021-02-08T16:22:12Z wasamasa: they have added enough features to make popular packages increase their minimum requirements though
2021-02-08T16:22:25Z wasamasa: there's also constant bugfixes that make it challenging to support all the versions
2021-02-08T16:22:35Z mangol: yeah i think some of mine depend on emacs 25 and the rest on 24
2021-02-08T16:22:44Z wasamasa: for example https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/ld7zd2/doom_has_dropped_support_for_emacs_261_debian/
2021-02-08T16:27:09Z mangol: anyway if someone wants to work on standardizing scheme emacs APIs (with much more modest requirements than GNU Emacs compatibility or matching GNU Emacs features; just for small time Emacs clones) please talk to me
2021-02-08T16:28:02Z aeth: mangol: Emacs did some major changes circa 2010-2012 or so to reach parity with XEmacs, which then promptly died
2021-02-08T16:28:15Z Zipheir: What do you mean by "Scheme Emacs APIs", exactly?
2021-02-08T16:28:23Z aeth: integrated package management, (iirc) syntax highlighting (at least on by default), etc.
2021-02-08T16:28:40Z mangol: aeth: yeah too bad that XEmacs lost. they seemed to have better technical principles, and move faster.
2021-02-08T16:29:51Z aeth: Zipheir: Emacs isn't anywhere near the scale of a web browser and definitely can be replaced. It's just that anyone capable of replacing it is making a standard, generic, "modern" IDE rather than an Emacs
2021-02-08T16:30:20Z mangol: Zipheir: basically take the central editing commands from ELisp, slightly tweak anything that would be really bad Scheme style into something palatable, then figure out how to split the command set into R7RS libraries
2021-02-08T16:30:44Z aeth: Zipheir: A text editor has nothing on the genuinely huge projects such as a web browser, a game engine, or even a database.
2021-02-08T16:30:59Z Zipheir: aeth: Yes, I exaggerated horribly.
2021-02-08T16:31:28Z aeth: A database is probably the hardest of the three I listed because while it's actually the easiest of the three to implement, you really don't want your database to be experimental or lose data.
2021-02-08T16:31:38Z mangol: Zipheir: you didn't exaggerate all that much. it's true that the feature set of GNU Emacs are far from impossible to replicate. but the bug-for-bug compatibility is.
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2021-02-08T16:31:59Z Zipheir: mangol: Sounds good.  I've always thought that Emacs's incremental interface design has been a curse.
2021-02-08T16:32:15Z jcowan: There is an in-progress Climacs replacement, called (naturally) Second Climacs.
2021-02-08T16:32:30Z mangol: that's why the co-operation some good elisp package authors would be essential to bootstrap a successful full-featured CL Emacs
2021-02-08T16:32:40Z mangol: lol
2021-02-08T16:34:30Z wasamasa: I doubt it will happen, considering how much of a success MELPA has been
2021-02-08T16:35:41Z mangol: the top MELPA hackers tend to like CL
2021-02-08T16:36:45Z mangol: Zipheir: what is incremental interface design?
2021-02-08T16:37:01Z jcowan: I've been thinking about a pre-SRFI to do special cases of `map` on homogeneous vectors.
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2021-02-08T16:39:34Z jcowan: e.g. (f32vector-map + v1 v2) if implemented naively will involve a lot of conversions from float to double, but it would be trivial to implement a proposed f32vector+ to walk through the f32vectors in C and add them into another vector.  (Probably good to make it take a result vector too.)  This can fall back to using f32vector-map if C transitions are inefficient.
2021-02-08T16:39:45Z wasamasa: mangol: I have my doubts
2021-02-08T16:39:49Z jcowan: The question is when to stop adding operations.  I have no principled answer to this.
2021-02-08T16:40:02Z Zipheir: mangol: The way Emacs has added one ad-hoc programming interface feature to another over the decades.
2021-02-08T16:40:15Z wasamasa: mangol: I'd of course like some short interviews with, say, the top 10
2021-02-08T16:40:27Z wasamasa: mangol: that way there would be less anecdata about it
2021-02-08T16:41:33Z Zipheir: mangol: Obviously the 80s incarnation of the editor didn't have a Web library or all of the clever highlighting features.  So the language for programming the editor is a tangled mess.
2021-02-08T16:41:47Z wasamasa: mangol: I can think of a more technical survey approach for it though
2021-02-08T16:42:16Z wasamasa: mangol: take the top X repositories by download count, identify their github repos, identify the top contributor, look up their github projects, look up their languages
2021-02-08T16:42:22Z wasamasa: mangol: and see how many of those involve CL
2021-02-08T16:42:23Z Zipheir: The only way to solve *that* problem is to decide what the editor is and is not going to do up front.
2021-02-08T16:42:24Z aeth: Zipheir: Beyond that, GNU Emacs was intentionally archaic in more ways to one, from the editor to the language.
2021-02-08T16:42:48Z ecraven: Zipheir: alas when planning for decades, you don't *know* up front ;)
2021-02-08T16:42:49Z aeth: Zipheir: So it was basically a '70s editor with a '70s LISP released in the '80s
2021-02-08T16:43:02Z Zipheir: Right.
2021-02-08T16:43:11Z siraben: it would take massive amounts of effort to rewrite Emacs and fix all of the warts
2021-02-08T16:43:43Z siraben: Proper namespacing, removing dynamic scope, good concurrency etc. are just things I recall off the top of my head.
2021-02-08T16:44:15Z mangol: i don't think Emacs has that many warts considering how much it does. XEmacs which used ADTs was even nicer.
2021-02-08T16:44:15Z Zipheir: Actually *parsing* source code rather than using little regex hacks for highlighting.
2021-02-08T16:44:29Z mangol: it's true that dynamic scope is awful, but they don't use it anymore.
2021-02-08T16:44:36Z wasamasa: but they do, lol
2021-02-08T16:44:41Z wasamasa: lexical binding is opt-in
2021-02-08T16:44:45Z wasamasa: far from everything uses it
2021-02-08T16:45:00Z wasamasa: there's been recently a push to make gnus use it and that uncovered a bunch of bugs
2021-02-08T16:45:27Z wasamasa: even if you use lexical binding, every special variable still uses dynamic scope
2021-02-08T16:45:51Z siraben: Heh Emacs calc is interesting, it implements bignums in Emacs Lisp even though Emacs recently (maybe 1 or 2 years ago) added bignum support via GNU GMP
2021-02-08T16:45:51Z mangol: Zipheir: yeah font-lock is pretty much the worst possible way to design a full-featured code highlighting framework :)
2021-02-08T16:45:56Z Zipheir: A good Emacs re-do would go back to basics.  A programmable text editor.  Not an operating system or a Lisp machine.
2021-02-08T16:46:16Z jcowan: Anyhow, I don't think lexical scope can shadow dynamic global variables
2021-02-08T16:46:22Z Zipheir: Something like Acme/Wily, I suppose.
2021-02-08T16:46:32Z siraben: using tree-sitter https://github.com/tree-sitter/tree-sitter could be viable for syntax-related editor stuff
2021-02-08T16:46:44Z mangol: Zipheir: if you want to explore that in a scheme context, help me out with factoring the elisp core editing and windowing functions into scheme libs :)
2021-02-08T16:46:55Z siraben: jcowan: right and it's quite normal to do some dynamic scoping on purpose
2021-02-08T16:47:16Z Zipheir: mangol: Did you paste a repo link?  I missed it, if so.
2021-02-08T16:47:23Z siraben: or unhygienic macros for that matter, to intentially rebind, say, `red` to the theme's variant of red
2021-02-08T16:47:24Z jcowan: Note that A/W isn't programmable in the sense of Emacs: it depends on outboard processes and a 9fs file system for Acme (a private socket protocol for Wily)
2021-02-08T16:47:37Z siraben: Zipheir: yeah, it would be something
2021-02-08T16:47:48Z mangol: Zipheir: i don't have a repo yet. well, except https://github.com/pre-srfi/emacs which was a less ambitious start from last week
2021-02-08T16:47:54Z wasamasa: lol
2021-02-08T16:47:55Z siraben: if anyone isn't already, I recommend running the native-comp branch of development Emacs that compiles Emacs Lisp to native code.
2021-02-08T16:48:10Z wasamasa: reminds me that I did write some emacs buffer API stuff in scheme for fun
2021-02-08T16:48:25Z Zipheir: mangol: ty
2021-02-08T16:48:36Z wasamasa: I dropped it though as a normal parser proved to be a saner design
2021-02-08T16:49:02Z Zipheir: Acme at least gets the scope of the program right.
2021-02-08T16:49:19Z siraben: wasamasa: didn't you write a CHIP-8 emulator in Emacs Lisp?
2021-02-08T16:49:23Z dieggsy: siraben: i build emacs from git every night, lol, but i generally stick to master as it tends to be very stable. once native-comp gets merged i may be more inclined to try
2021-02-08T16:49:23Z wasamasa: I did
2021-02-08T16:49:32Z mangol: wasamasa: MELPA people like CL as a superior alternative to ELisp. they wouldn't necessarily use CL for unrelated projects.
2021-02-08T16:49:44Z wasamasa: mangol: [citation needed]
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2021-02-08T16:49:53Z wasamasa: also, that's a weak claim
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2021-02-08T16:49:59Z wasamasa: why would you believe in CL, but not use it
2021-02-08T16:50:02Z dieggsy: agreed
2021-02-08T16:50:08Z mangol: because emacs isn't written in CL
2021-02-08T16:50:11Z wasamasa: your belief in CL is only worth something if you're actually experienced with it
2021-02-08T16:50:14Z siraben: dieggsy: FWIW I've been running native-comp for half a year or so now, no problems.
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2021-02-08T16:50:33Z wasamasa: I know just enough of it to reliably identify social lisp issues in their ecosystem :D
2021-02-08T16:50:34Z Zipheir: A more radical idea: Why do we keep writing programmable programs which expose some things the OS allows you to do?  Why not build an OS that you can build up to an editor, or whatever, exposing as much of the OS's functionality as you need?
2021-02-08T16:50:42Z wasamasa: hear, hear
2021-02-08T16:51:11Z wasamasa: Zipheir: there was this guy who heard lisp machines and plan9 are cool things, but didn't understand either: https://github.com/mntmn/interim/
2021-02-08T16:51:48Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Interesting.
2021-02-08T16:51:50Z wasamasa: not sure I'd call it the worst lisp implementation ever, but it's there
2021-02-08T16:51:55Z Zipheir: Heh.
2021-02-08T16:52:04Z dieggsy: Zipheir: wait, can you explain what you mean re: exposing the OS
2021-02-08T16:52:06Z wasamasa: worst plan9 implementation though, yes, there's no competition
2021-02-08T16:52:21Z wasamasa: nevertheless, I learned a lot from studying this project
2021-02-08T16:52:35Z wasamasa: the author however found more luck in designing and manufacturing hardware
2021-02-08T16:52:51Z siraben: Zipheir: that would be like the Lisp Machine OSes right?
2021-02-08T16:52:56Z siraben: the notion of everything-is-programmable
2021-02-08T16:53:07Z siraben: or the Xerox Alto's Smalltalk system
2021-02-08T16:53:55Z wasamasa: dieggsy: the above thing exposed OS resources as a file system to a lisp REPL
2021-02-08T16:53:55Z siraben: Zipheir: do you think it would make sense for a programmable editor to be written in a typed language?
2021-02-08T16:54:00Z siraben: perhaps gradually typed to be flexible
2021-02-08T16:55:17Z Zipheir: dieggsy: With the traditional OS/userspace program divide, anything the OS does that you'd like your program to also provide has to be reimplemented as an API in your program.  Maybe there's a way to break that divide down.
2021-02-08T16:55:38Z mangol: jcowan: the vector operations SRFI sounds good. aren't these amenable to implementation using commonly available SIMD instructions?
2021-02-08T16:55:52Z Zipheir: siraben: Written, or programmed?
2021-02-08T16:55:54Z jcowan: Presumably.
2021-02-08T16:56:27Z Zipheir: siraben: As a background mental task these days, I'm trying to wrap my head around the implications of typing in command languages.
2021-02-08T16:56:38Z siraben: Zipheir: with something like Emacs, that distinction is blurry, heh. But programmed, I think.
2021-02-08T16:56:53Z siraben: command languages?
2021-02-08T16:57:00Z Zipheir: Shells, especially.
2021-02-08T16:57:08Z dieggsy: lol, woah
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2021-02-08T16:58:50Z siraben: Zipheir: well, I could imagine assigning types to the standard shell commands
2021-02-08T16:59:12Z siraben: and operators like | would be composition (or Kleisli composition if you capture effects in the type system)
2021-02-08T16:59:19Z mangol: command line arguments effectively have types: this is an integer, that is a filename, that is a directory name, ...
2021-02-08T16:59:48Z Zipheir: "Lisp is for building organisms -- imposing, breathtaking, dynamic structures built by squads fitting fluctuating myriads of simpler organisms into place." (Perlis, SICP foreward)  Build the language up to the application!
2021-02-08T16:59:49Z mangol: types of input and output could be represented using sum types in many cases, but it's more complicated than for arguments
2021-02-08T17:00:44Z siraben: oh yeah, there's also notions of "exclusive or" in command line args
2021-02-08T17:00:51Z siraben: --a or --b but not both
2021-02-08T17:01:05Z siraben: well that's just Either
2021-02-08T17:02:09Z siraben: Surprised there's Scheme Shell but no ML shell
2021-02-08T17:02:16Z Zipheir: The interesting thing there is some sort of way to compose effectful operations (commands) in an applicative way.
2021-02-08T17:02:41Z Zipheir: If only there were some sort of functor things that are also applicative...
2021-02-08T17:02:45Z Zipheir: :)
2021-02-08T17:03:15Z siraben: Zipheir: the paper on Applicatives uses [[ ... ]] as the notation for lifting everything inside, so f a b becomes f <$> a <*> b
2021-02-08T17:03:27Z mangol: siraben: that's different; Either can handle only two cases
2021-02-08T17:03:54Z mangol: Zipheir: https://github.com/yallop/effects-bibliography
2021-02-08T17:04:19Z siraben: mangol: that's a great compilation of research
2021-02-08T17:04:35Z siraben: So much work on effects!
2021-02-08T17:05:29Z mangol: yeah it's impressive!
2021-02-08T17:05:56Z Zipheir: Wow, yeah.
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2021-02-08T17:10:41Z mangol: siraben: in fact ML REPLs are quite similar to Scheme REPLs, and could probably be as easily turned into command shells
2021-02-08T17:11:40Z mangol: i still want to put as many lisp/scheme/ml implementations as will fit into one unix distro
2021-02-08T17:13:13Z siraben: mangol: what do you have so far?
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2021-02-08T17:14:41Z mangol: siraben: bits and pieces of work, and a general outline of what to do (what components to pick, how to structure the project)
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2021-02-08T17:15:24Z siraben: are you merely just building them or other things as well?
2021-02-08T17:15:26Z jcowan: Zipheir: Go to #sicl and talk to beach (Robert Strandh) about CLOSOS.
2021-02-08T17:15:35Z mangol: as many projects, it's quite doable and even reasonably straightforward; missing ingredients are time and people :)
2021-02-08T17:15:46Z jcowan: It's vaporware still, but he has some very good papers on the subject
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2021-02-08T17:15:53Z Zipheir: jcowan: ty, will do.
2021-02-08T17:16:46Z mangol: siraben: i think we should amass a distro that ships with as much lisp/ml software as possible, incl. all kinds of applications and libraries
2021-02-08T17:17:18Z siraben: I'm biased but I think https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/ has an ever increasing collection of software
2021-02-08T17:17:24Z mangol: it's hard to think from a lisp frame of mind when working on top of unix where all the applications are C/Python silos
2021-02-08T17:17:31Z siraben: Including several Lisp and ML implementations
2021-02-08T17:17:34Z mangol: and Guix is Nix + Scheme
2021-02-08T17:17:40Z siraben: Right.
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2021-02-08T17:17:58Z mangol: it's more about what software you exclude than what you include
2021-02-08T17:17:59Z wasamasa: mangol: I guess you've never run into POSIX regex: https://github.com/pre-srfi/emacs#regular-expressions
2021-02-08T17:18:12Z siraben: Guix is better in that they actually use a programming language instead of a custom one, but being a GNU project they're pretty strict about licensing
2021-02-08T17:18:12Z wasamasa: mangol: ever used `find`?
2021-02-08T17:18:42Z wasamasa: > find: Unknown regular expression type ‘help’; valid types are ‘findutils-default’, ‘ed’, ‘emacs’, ‘gnu-awk’, ‘grep’, ‘posix-awk’, ‘awk’, ‘posix-basic’, ‘posix-egrep’, ‘egrep’, ‘posix-extended’, ‘posix-minimal-basic’, ‘sed’.
2021-02-08T17:19:08Z mangol: Guix supports custom channels [sic?] though i think. so if you wanted to be a bad citizen of GNU-land you could make a channel with proprietary stuff
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2021-02-08T17:20:41Z mangol: wasamasa: thanks for looking over the draft. i don't understand your find and posix references
2021-02-08T17:20:44Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Weird.  What's the difference between posix-basic, sed, and ed, I wonder...
2021-02-08T17:21:13Z wasamasa: mangol: really, go use any of these basic tools supporting regex and you'll discover they have similar regex rules as emacs
2021-02-08T17:21:20Z siraben: Indeed such an unfree channel exists, but there's a warning on it not to discuss it publicly
2021-02-08T17:21:43Z Zipheir: Ouch.
2021-02-08T17:21:44Z wasamasa: mangol: man 7 regex
2021-02-08T17:21:49Z mangol: wasamasa: ah, right. so the idiosyncratic emacs regexp syntax isn't originated by emacs
2021-02-08T17:22:04Z wasamasa: emacs only came up with extensions to handle syntax tables and stuff
2021-02-08T17:22:50Z mangol: wasamasa: thanks for pointing out the mistake. i'll fix it.
2021-02-08T17:23:29Z mangol: siraben: wow :D so GNU is pretty strict about this stuff.
2021-02-08T17:23:30Z wasamasa: that man page speaks of BRE which form the basis of emacs RE
2021-02-08T17:23:42Z wasamasa: grep does BRE by default
2021-02-08T17:23:54Z mangol: so that's why grep without -E never works right :D
2021-02-08T17:23:57Z wasamasa: yes
2021-02-08T17:24:52Z wasamasa: as for the APIs in that SRFI, I'm missing the movement parts
2021-02-08T17:24:56Z Zipheir: Basic regexes are still pretty fantastic.
2021-02-08T17:25:12Z mangol: wasamasa: yes, the draft is missing parts. i basically wrote it in one sitting
2021-02-08T17:25:16Z wasamasa: like, why is forward-line not there
2021-02-08T17:25:28Z Zipheir: EREs add + and (), which I consider useful, but the rest can get pretty bonkers.  Never mind truly insane designs like PCRE.
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2021-02-08T17:25:46Z mangol: irregular regular expressions
2021-02-08T17:26:51Z wasamasa: the most basic text processing loop is (while (not (eobp)) (do-something (buffer-substring (line-beginning-position) (line-end-position))) (forward-line 1))
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2021-02-08T17:27:37Z wasamasa: that allows you to process every line in the buffer
2021-02-08T17:27:50Z wasamasa: skipping character classes forward/backward is also useful for basic parsing tasks
2021-02-08T17:28:27Z mangol: it's an open question whether character classes should be included in a scheme replica
2021-02-08T17:28:57Z wasamasa: maybe I don't understand the point of this exercise
2021-02-08T17:29:09Z wasamasa: but if you want to make running existing elisp easier, yeah, no
2021-02-08T17:30:17Z mangol: not running it as-is, but making it easy for people who already know elisp to write similar scheme code for random editing jobs
2021-02-08T17:30:48Z siraben: Zipheir: PCREs can parse context-free languages
2021-02-08T17:30:50Z mangol: i've found that the elisp API is often easier to use for those purposes than most programming language APIs (ruby, python, perl, etc.)
2021-02-08T17:31:01Z siraben: Wikipedia says, "For example, the pattern \((a*|(?R))*\) will match any combination of balanced parentheses and "a"s. "
2021-02-08T17:32:59Z Zipheir: siraben: That's not a good thing for "regular" expressions.
2021-02-08T17:33:14Z siraben: Exactly!
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2021-02-08T18:12:44Z Zipheir: mangol: Nice start to the Emacs document.
2021-02-08T18:21:01Z mangol: Zipheir: thanks. i started perusing the Edwin source and it's nice code. it would probably make more sense to make Portable Edwin than re-implement this.
2021-02-08T18:21:18Z wasamasa: x11 srfi when
2021-02-08T18:21:39Z mangol: the Edwin API is not quite same as the GNU Emacs API; sometimes the same procedures have different names
2021-02-08T18:22:51Z mangol: cloc says Edwin is 60k lines of Scheme, excluding blank and comment lines
2021-02-08T18:23:10Z Zipheir: wasamasa: I'm guessing you're joking, but I'd say that a Scheme-xlib would be a useful thing.
2021-02-08T18:23:48Z mangol: there are a few xlib bindings listed at https://misc.lassi.io/2019/packhack.html
2021-02-08T18:24:23Z mangol: it would be nice to find a good set of primitives on top of which Portable Edwin can be implemented
2021-02-08T18:24:39Z mangol: those primitives could be enshrined in a SRFI which various scheme implementations could choose to provide
2021-02-08T18:24:47Z wasamasa: I'm indeed in that mood
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2021-02-08T18:25:04Z mangol: so everyone could run Edwin on their favorite scheme, and that would improve both edwin and the scheme implementations
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2021-02-08T18:28:09Z mangol: there's also https://github.com/scheme/edwin48 from 2014 "MIT Scheme's Edwin Editor written on top of Scheme48 and SCSH
2021-02-08T18:28:22Z wasamasa: I dunno, it feels like building a skyscraper out of cards
2021-02-08T18:29:49Z mangol: also https://buy.edwin.pizza/
2021-02-08T18:32:04Z mangol: which part of the software maps to the cards in your metaphor?
2021-02-08T18:32:22Z wasamasa: think of each paren as a card :P
2021-02-08T18:32:50Z mangol: swamp football is a sport in my country
2021-02-08T18:33:12Z mangol: so i can make the association :D
2021-02-08T18:33:19Z Zipheir: Parens are strong things. https://xkcd.com/297/
2021-02-08T18:33:33Z wasamasa: the reasoning behind that mental picture is, yes, it's impressive what you can build out of cards, but it's not how houses are built
2021-02-08T18:33:53Z mangol: tfw still no civilized age
2021-02-08T18:34:26Z wasamasa: the other reasoning is that using cards ignores so much existing work and knowledge and cooperation
2021-02-08T18:35:14Z mangol: just to be clear, i'm not suggesting to replicate GNU Emacs + MELPA in Scheme
2021-02-08T18:35:15Z wasamasa: Mark Tarver may very well rant about programming in C being like using tweezers to create a piece of art
2021-02-08T18:35:44Z wasamasa: but it's missing the part of people creating rock solid foundations to be reused by others
2021-02-08T18:36:41Z mangol: C programmers don't build solid foundations. but they often do build complete foundations.
2021-02-08T18:36:51Z wasamasa: what else do you call ABI compatibility
2021-02-08T18:37:55Z mangol: how does ABI compatibility relate to emacs?
2021-02-08T18:38:14Z wasamasa: surprisingly lot actually
2021-02-08T18:38:15Z mangol: GNU Emacs has so many features that it's in a different ballpark from something like Edwin
2021-02-08T18:38:36Z wasamasa: emacs used to have a different versioning where the first number was about the API compatibility level
2021-02-08T18:38:42Z mangol: even if you made Edwin API-compatible with elisp, it wouldn't help because Edwin wouldn't have nearly as many features
2021-02-08T18:38:46Z wasamasa: this was dropped when it became obvious it would never increment
2021-02-08T18:39:00Z wasamasa: hence the jump from 1.x to 16.x
2021-02-08T18:39:14Z mangol: early semver
2021-02-08T18:39:25Z wasamasa: they leave an awful lot of time happen between actually removing deprecated features
2021-02-08T18:40:13Z wasamasa: imagine that in hobbyist land of "I don't care, I'll just delete most of my code I've put online because I hate other people"
2021-02-08T18:45:12Z mangol: how do we connect this tangent back to edwin?
2021-02-08T18:46:38Z wasamasa: well, you know my opinion on writing an interesting program confined to a single scheme implementation vs doing a balancing act to make it run on several scheme implementations
2021-02-08T18:47:05Z wasamasa: the latter is a cute exercise, but I can't see it working beyond writing benchmarks or academic interpreters/compilers
2021-02-08T18:47:40Z wasamasa: pick one and go as far as you can instead of drowning in a sea of compromises
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2021-02-08T18:48:24Z mangol: that's a bootstrapping problem. portability will improve slowly if at all if there aren't applications to drive that trend.
2021-02-08T18:48:51Z mangol: bootstrapping problems are solved when some people just go and do something where the immediate job is difficult/impractical
2021-02-08T18:49:35Z wasamasa: I sometimes ponder Bilbo Baggins saying that he feels like butter stretched too thin on a big piece of bread
2021-02-08T18:49:44Z mangol: from my point of view, single-implementation code is like throwaway code and i try to avoid it as much as possible
2021-02-08T18:49:55Z wasamasa: doing that to an already miniscule community is a death sentence
2021-02-08T18:50:19Z mangol: that's another bootstrapping problem. why doesn't the community grow?
2021-02-08T18:50:41Z wasamasa: growth isn't a metric to relentlessly optimize for
2021-02-08T18:50:51Z mangol: around scheme, i'm only interested in bootstrapping problems. i don't work on anything else
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2021-02-08T18:51:00Z wasamasa: marketing you mean
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2021-02-08T18:51:30Z mangol: i don't think scheme is currently in a position where marketing is among the most helpful things to focus on
2021-02-08T18:51:42Z wasamasa: but what I read from you seems very much like marketing
2021-02-08T18:51:47Z mangol: it's still too DIY, and lack of portability is one of the main reasons for the DIY
2021-02-08T18:51:55Z wasamasa: let's ignore the current state of affairs and apply some wishful thinking to do better
2021-02-08T18:52:04Z mangol: exactly
2021-02-08T18:52:27Z wasamasa: call it community management or whatever then
2021-02-08T18:52:40Z mangol: it doesn't matter what it's called
2021-02-08T18:52:50Z wasamasa: but it does, words have meaning :D
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2021-02-08T18:55:14Z wasamasa: funny that you call single-implementation code throwaway
2021-02-08T18:55:33Z wasamasa: didn't you call out some xlib bindings before
2021-02-08T18:55:56Z mangol: what is the point of these tangets?
2021-02-08T18:56:54Z wasamasa: understanding
2021-02-08T18:58:24Z Zipheir: mangol, wasamasa: Let's move on from this discussion, please.
2021-02-08T18:59:16Z mangol: i don't know what to say. i generally have complete confidence in my goals, after a long gestation period, but i have trouble communicating them to others. i'm not sure more communication helps at a commensurate rate.
2021-02-08T19:00:09Z mangol: maybe give it the benefit of the doubt and wait a year or two. if it works, maybe you'll understand retroactively. if it doesn't work, it's not that serious. those were the best projects i could think of and it was fun to attempt.
2021-02-08T19:00:47Z mangol: Zipheir: i'm not offended :) it's good to be driven to understand
2021-02-08T19:01:01Z wasamasa: I thought I spotted some inconsistency there
2021-02-08T19:01:16Z wasamasa: like, they're throwaway, but they're also useful for API design
2021-02-08T19:02:34Z mangol: you're reasoning at a very fine level of detail when we're talking about problems of sweeping scope
2021-02-08T19:03:24Z mangol: turns of phrase are not necessarily meant to be interpreted literally. they can express feelings, some of which are personal or otherwise context-dependent, and don't apply universally
2021-02-08T19:04:10Z mangol: it's generally very difficult to understand at a fine level of detail where other people are coming from, even with the best of intentions.
2021-02-08T19:04:51Z wasamasa: online communication was a mistake
2021-02-08T19:06:19Z mangol: a big part of why communication is difficult is that software development is a cultural activity. cultures aren't reasoned into being; they grow from a seed in a particular environment to fit that environment. can be incomprehensible when transplanted into another environment.
2021-02-08T19:06:37Z wasamasa: I guess I'll just let people make a few hundred SRFIs more while solving practical problems confined to a single scheme implementation
2021-02-08T19:06:37Z mangol: that's why lisp is perennially misunderstood too
2021-02-08T19:07:47Z mangol: do portable scheme projects offend you somehow?
2021-02-08T19:08:07Z wasamasa: so far my experiences with them have left me disillusioned
2021-02-08T19:08:55Z mangol: great, so we arrive again at the crux of the matter :) it's a debate over how much optimism or pessimism to have around projects of that scope
2021-02-08T19:11:06Z mangol: that kind of problem can be solved simply by people sticking to their guns. optimistic people attempt sweeping projects; pessimistic people don't join those projects.
2021-02-08T19:11:10Z mangol: wait and see what happens.
2021-02-08T19:11:52Z mangol: if the projects start showing more promise, the optimistic people will have an easier time recruiting more people who aren't quite as optimistic. if the projects look like failures, harder time recruiting
2021-02-08T19:12:21Z mangol: the ebb and flow of any culture
2021-02-08T19:13:45Z wasamasa: as Steve Yegge put it, scheme is like some exotic sports car
2021-02-08T19:14:06Z wasamasa: given the choice between actually using an existing car and designing components to work on all exotic sports cars, well...
2021-02-08T19:15:28Z Zipheir: Stevie's Lisp rant is not among his best.
2021-02-08T19:15:33Z mangol: that's an interesting metaphor, and illuminates your point of view.
2021-02-08T19:15:41Z wasamasa: it's actually one about emacs: https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/11/ejacs-javascript-interpreter-for-emacs.html
2021-02-08T19:16:17Z mangol: since sports car scarcity economics don't apply to software, i'd like to make them more widely available and easier to use.
2021-02-08T19:18:42Z mangol: one thing that may be helpful in understanding my point of view that i'm drawn to risky projects. i'd rather attempt something i really want with a 90% chance of failure, than work on a goal that doesn't excite me with a 90% change of success.
2021-02-08T19:18:55Z wasamasa: lol
2021-02-08T19:19:03Z wasamasa: have you considered algo trading
2021-02-08T19:19:08Z mangol: lol
2021-02-08T19:19:14Z mangol: in scheme
2021-02-08T19:19:20Z wasamasa: yes, use stalin
2021-02-08T19:19:28Z wasamasa: double the trouble, double the risk
2021-02-08T19:19:36Z mangol: finance is boring
2021-02-08T19:19:48Z wasamasa: I've yet to find people capable of predicting the stocks market
2021-02-08T19:19:56Z Zipheir: I suppose there's always a missing premise in these "portable Scheme vs. single implementation" discussions which results in a lot of confusion: it's assumed that everyone has the same goal for the language(s) they want to improve/work on/market.
2021-02-08T19:20:19Z Zipheir: What's the goal, in other words?
2021-02-08T19:20:22Z gwatt: wasamasa: I think most actual studies have yet to find people who can predict the stock market
2021-02-08T19:21:10Z mangol: Zipheir: yes, the cultural aspect. culture is always implicit, takes great pains to try to explain it.
2021-02-08T19:21:12Z wasamasa: Zipheir: ok, you got me there, having fun is a rather fuzzy goal
2021-02-08T19:21:46Z Zipheir: See, this is a big problem.
2021-02-08T19:22:11Z wasamasa: I remember this person on #chicken showing up for a month or two trying to make as many SRFIs available as possible
2021-02-08T19:22:30Z wasamasa: I don't think they had much fun with that, only this vague idea it would look great if there were a bigger list of supported SRFIs
2021-02-08T19:22:42Z Zipheir: Indeed.  I'm a bit concerned about those eggs, given that ve disappeared from #chicken after creating them.
2021-02-08T19:23:25Z wasamasa: the actual goal behind that, hm, making the ecosystem friendlier to beginners?
2021-02-08T19:23:37Z Zipheir: That was the stated goal, IIRC.
2021-02-08T19:23:51Z mangol: i'm always perplexed when people worry that other people might not know how to have fun or pick goals they like
2021-02-08T19:24:21Z wasamasa: burnout is real
2021-02-08T19:24:48Z mangol: he's a grown up, he can pick his own goals and pace of working
2021-02-08T19:25:07Z mangol: people make too many assumptions about what's good for strangers on the internet
2021-02-08T19:25:32Z jcowan: How else?  That's why marketing departments exist.
2021-02-08T19:25:52Z Blukunfando: There’d be too little to argue about otherwise.
2021-02-08T19:25:59Z mangol: why do ordinary people think they know how others should live?
2021-02-08T19:26:03Z jcowan: "Sales tries to sell product; marketing makes sure that product can be sold."
2021-02-08T19:26:25Z jcowan: mangol: At one level because humans are not all that different from one another.
2021-02-08T19:27:45Z mangol: disagree
2021-02-08T19:28:02Z Zipheir: mangol: The challenge in trying to work with others on something is that no-one's particularly good at expressing what they're really trying to accomplish, or they assume that everyone else is trying to do the same thing.
2021-02-08T19:29:35Z jcowan: mangol: Take a look at "Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" sometime
2021-02-08T19:29:51Z mangol: jcowan: i've always felt deflated when other people give me advice on how to live, and miserable they few times i've followed their advice. that's why i don't presume to advise others.
2021-02-08T19:30:19Z jcowan: Unsolicited advice mostly sucks, it's true.
2021-02-08T19:30:31Z mangol: it's generally the people who have the least understanding of others' situation who are the most ready to give advice.
2021-02-08T19:31:47Z wasamasa: I've pondered this making the ecosystem friendlier a bit and believe a scheme-toolbox.com would help more than going through 200 srfis
2021-02-08T19:31:54Z jcowan: Indeed.  But "how people should live" does not imply "tell individuals".  Write a book.
2021-02-08T19:31:58Z mangol: Zipheir: beyond a certain (not very high) project complexity, explaining what you're trying to accomplish is basically the same thing as accomplishing it and showing the result
2021-02-08T19:32:16Z wasamasa: or toolbox.scheme.org
2021-02-08T19:32:34Z mangol: it's not possible to explain complex projects very well to people who don't have the same background as you without completing them to a substantial degree
2021-02-08T19:32:36Z jcowan: mangol: In that case your project is too complex for you to understand.
2021-02-08T19:32:45Z Zipheir: mangol: Not in a technical sense, really.  Your goals in trying to work with other people on a language, piece of software, or whatever.
2021-02-08T19:32:54Z wasamasa: it would be challenging to group srfis, akku/snow, public domain and implementation-specific code that way, but it could be interesting to try
2021-02-08T19:33:03Z wasamasa: even if it just shows where the big holes are
2021-02-08T19:33:43Z jcowan: See /r/explainlikeimfive, which I have on occasion found very useful, esp. when researching "ironic facial hair" to find out if mine is ironic (answer: no)
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2021-02-08T19:34:15Z Zipheir: mangol: Indeed, any project so complex that someone working on it can't explain it without showing me the finished product is probably way too complex.
2021-02-08T19:35:04Z Zipheir: (I recall trying to get amirouche to tell me what some massive system he was working on was actually supposed to *do*...)
2021-02-08T19:35:18Z wasamasa: the proof is in eating the pudding
2021-02-08T19:35:26Z jcowan: s/esp./e.g.
2021-02-08T19:36:09Z mangol: once again, i disagree with all of that
2021-02-08T19:36:15Z mangol: except wasamasa's toolbox.scheme.org idea :)
2021-02-08T19:36:40Z wasamasa: prior art: https://www.ruby-toolbox.com/ https://www.ruby-toolbox.com/
2021-02-08T19:36:51Z wasamasa: err
2021-02-08T19:36:53Z wasamasa: https://www.clojure-toolbox.com/
2021-02-08T19:36:54Z mangol: jcowan if you really think people are so similar that a book can advise everyone on how to live, maybe you haven't met very many different kinds of people or known them too well
2021-02-08T19:37:05Z Zipheir: We're all trying to avoid getting lost in the complexities of our own making.
2021-02-08T19:37:07Z wasamasa: I like the color tagging on the clojure one, that could be done with compatible implementations
2021-02-08T19:37:28Z mangol: to me it's extremely obvious that people need very different things in their lives, not to mention in different phases of their lives
2021-02-08T19:37:51Z Blukunfando: Just make the book a few billion times bigger.
2021-02-08T19:37:58Z mangol: about right :)
2021-02-08T19:40:02Z mangol: advice-giving is usually wel correlated with the drive to "protect" other people somehow. but some people can't stand moderation and lack of risk-taking.
2021-02-08T19:40:31Z mangol: different people need the opposite lifestyles, and are miserable if they are all forced into the same lifestyle
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2021-02-08T19:41:02Z Zipheir: To paraphrase Marshall Rosenberg somewhat, I would say that fundamental human needs are pretty similar, while the ways in which we try to satisfy those needs varies immensely.
2021-02-08T19:41:19Z wasamasa: yeah, there is something about the protection bit
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2021-02-08T19:42:45Z Blukunfando: Like all annoying behaviors, it’s also a good way to show you can afford to annoy people.
2021-02-08T19:42:54Z jcowan: mangol: Obviously the wider the audience, the more astronaut-ish must be the view.
2021-02-08T19:43:52Z jcowan: But my point was that you can avoid reading a book much more easily than you can ignore someone advising you 1-1.
2021-02-08T19:44:35Z jcowan: In any case, this started by talking about how to make things other people will like/want to use, which indeed involves understanding your audience.
2021-02-08T19:45:36Z jcowan: $EMPLOYER sells an AI product to lawyers, so it has on staff lots of lawyers on the assumption that lawyers are likely to know (to a first approximation) what other lawyers will like/want/accept/pay for.
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2021-02-08T19:47:04Z mangol: it's difficult to give any general advice to all people without ending up with platitudes.
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2021-02-08T19:47:32Z Blukunfando: It’s easy if you don’t actually care about giving good advice.
2021-02-08T19:47:39Z mangol: lol
2021-02-08T19:47:44Z Zipheir: mangol: Because there's way more advising than listening.
2021-02-08T19:47:47Z mangol: Blukunfando: we think alike
2021-02-08T19:51:06Z mangol: Zipheir: it's not just about advising too much; it's that advice isn't generally applicable.
2021-02-08T19:52:14Z mangol: in my experience, the least adventurous people tend to give the most advice, and show the narrowest understanding of human nature
2021-02-08T19:53:32Z Blukunfando: By the way, was that how you ended up talking about CLOSOS?
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2021-02-08T19:59:34Z Zipheir: We were discussing ways of building up an underlying OS interface to an application layer.
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2021-02-08T20:05:35Z Zipheir: jcowan: Dangling SRFI 217 question: What do iset-delete-min/-max return for an empty iset?
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2021-02-08T20:08:24Z jcowan: It's an error, I would think
2021-02-08T20:09:18Z Zipheir: Fine.  There's also the (SRFI 146) mapping-pop pattern of providing an optional failure continuation.
2021-02-08T20:09:29Z Zipheir: (Reinventing the Maybe wheel yet again.)
2021-02-08T20:11:39Z jcowan: Blukunfando: Zipheir was interested in language-all-the-way-down (and up) systems.
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2021-02-08T20:54:42Z ecraven: ;)
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2021-02-08T21:00:24Z amirouche: ecraven: I got a brillant idea
2021-02-08T21:00:37Z amirouche: ecraven: I implement cross platform perfect network stack for scheme...
2021-02-08T21:00:54Z amirouche: ... and you give half your fortune.
2021-02-08T21:00:57Z amirouche: :D
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2021-02-08T21:01:15Z ecraven: hehe, my fortune is negative, so not sure you want half of that :P
2021-02-08T21:01:24Z amirouche: oh no
2021-02-08T21:01:47Z amirouche: I always got brillant ideas, then someone make me realise it is not a good idea
2021-02-08T21:02:04Z amirouche: ecraven: seriously, what scheme implementation outside mit scheme and chickend and chez do you use?
2021-02-08T21:02:11Z amirouche: s/chickend/chicken/
2021-02-08T21:02:18Z ecraven: I've used MIT/GNU for a long time, still sometimes do
2021-02-08T21:02:28Z ecraven: I'm trying to use more different ones, but mostly work with Chez for now
2021-02-08T21:02:40Z wasamasa: trying to figure out what could possibly give me an error for car when doing lmdb stuff
2021-02-08T21:02:45Z amirouche: does MIT support multiple cores thread?
2021-02-08T21:03:22Z amirouche tap on wasamasa and say: "share the code luke"
2021-02-08T21:03:35Z ecraven: amirouche: not sure, a few years ago I think it didn't, however it *does* support green threads, which block on IO, so in some ways that is *better* than what you get with multiple threads :P
2021-02-08T21:03:43Z wasamasa: it must be something very stupid
2021-02-08T21:03:50Z wasamasa: because the call trace is leading me astray
2021-02-08T21:03:51Z amirouche: ecraven: I need both green and posix threads.
2021-02-08T21:04:04Z ecraven: does *any* scheme have both?
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2021-02-08T21:04:28Z amirouche: ecraven: Chez, Guile and the wind thing I keep forgetting the name
2021-02-08T21:04:31Z amirouche: cyclone
2021-02-08T21:04:39Z ecraven: amirouche: do I understand correctly that srfi-168 stores all permutations of subject + predicates as the key in the OKVS?
2021-02-08T21:04:49Z ecraven: I don't think chez has green threads?
2021-02-08T21:04:59Z amirouche: I mean, if you have call/cc and posix thread yuo can have green thread, but greenthread might not be as fast as MIT green threads.
2021-02-08T21:05:23Z amirouche: ecraven: not all permutation, that is the giant math proof in the ack section
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2021-02-08T21:05:50Z ecraven: the point is, if (read) blocks your thread, there is nothing you can do about it, unless you rewrite the actual implementation or re-implement read
2021-02-08T21:05:53Z amirouche: a subset of the permutation, just enough to be able to execute any query with any pattern.
2021-02-08T21:05:54Z ecraven: such support needs to be built-in
2021-02-08T21:06:01Z ecraven: ok, thanks, I'll look into that
2021-02-08T21:06:09Z amirouche: ecraven: no?
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2021-02-08T21:06:18Z amirouche: ecraven: because epoll and kqueue
2021-02-08T21:06:44Z ecraven: I implemented *very* basic chez libraries for leveldb, foundationdb, lmdb and kyoto-cabinet, some things to play around with ;)
2021-02-08T21:06:46Z amirouche: python does not have async builtin, it has async / await and the associated protocol builtin.
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2021-02-08T21:07:19Z ecraven: how would you tell your implementation (which hides everything about IO, if you're unlucky even the fds) to use epoll or kqueue?
2021-02-08T21:07:40Z amirouche: because epoll and kqueue are bound in C, exposed in python
2021-02-08T21:07:45Z amirouche: give me 5s
2021-02-08T21:07:53Z ecraven: that's nice for python, but I'm talking about some arbitrary Scheme implementation
2021-02-08T21:08:23Z ecraven: thanks, this is a very interesting and relevant link: https://math.stackexchange.com/q/3146568/23663
2021-02-08T21:09:09Z wasamasa: amirouche: I'd be more inclined if I didn't need to do this ugly hack of unpack* in srfi-168
2021-02-08T21:10:37Z amirouche: ecraven: yeah, but it applies to some scheme: https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/bf2e7e55d7306b1e2fce7dce767e8df5ff42cf1c/Lib/asyncio/base_events.py#L1806
2021-02-08T21:10:37Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/X8E6f0tdQX
2021-02-08T21:11:05Z amirouche: the only problem is errno
2021-02-08T21:11:15Z ecraven: that was my point, if the implementation doesn't support it, there's no easy way to add it yourself (in general)
2021-02-08T21:11:48Z ecraven: sorry, off again for tonight, I'll read up on that "boolean lattice by minimal number of maximal chains" :D thanks for that link!
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2021-02-08T21:11:59Z amirouche: ecraven: :')
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2021-02-08T21:12:38Z amirouche: wasamasa: i will try to replace it
2021-02-08T21:13:07Z ecraven: maybe you have some time tomorrow, I have more questions ;)
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2021-02-08T21:16:39Z amirouche: wasamasa: you will hate but the original implementation of pack returns a list
2021-02-08T21:16:49Z amirouche: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-167/blob/master/srfi/pack.scm#L211-L213
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2021-02-08T21:17:34Z amirouche: ecraven: I keep wondering why you do everything on your own and do join forces
2021-02-08T21:17:53Z amirouche: I have foundationdb, wiredtiger and sqlite lsm extension bindings..
2021-02-08T21:18:24Z wasamasa: it's a bit hard to trust someone who has no issues sabotaging their work :P
2021-02-08T21:18:37Z amirouche: the code is there ^
2021-02-08T21:18:48Z wasamasa: like, where is guile-wiredtiger
2021-02-08T21:18:51Z amirouche: wasamasa: true, again true, but ecraven does not know it
2021-02-08T21:21:56Z amirouche: I really need to see software engineer psychatrist.
2021-02-08T21:23:30Z amirouche: there is guile bindings of wiredtiger, they are still around
2021-02-08T21:24:10Z amirouche: https://github.com/amirouche/babelia/blob/master/babelia/okvs/wiredtiger.scm
2021-02-08T21:25:18Z wasamasa: ok, so they're just somewhere else
2021-02-08T21:25:53Z wasamasa: that's reassuring
2021-02-08T21:27:08Z amirouche: wiht a almost complete and tested R7RS libraries :)
2021-02-08T21:27:11Z amirouche proud
2021-02-08T21:27:23Z amirouche: (taken from sample implementations)
2021-02-08T21:29:05Z mangol: great stuff
2021-02-08T21:30:18Z amirouche: tx
2021-02-08T21:32:09Z amirouche: but the crawler of that project is buggy
2021-02-08T21:32:16Z amirouche: the search engine hence is more difficult to test.
2021-02-08T21:32:34Z amirouche: but if you submit html that is already mirror on disk, with some code one can test the search engine
2021-02-08T21:32:56Z amirouche: also, I myself, always need 30min to figure in which order to run the different services.
2021-02-08T21:35:59Z wasamasa: hum, software engineer psychiatrist
2021-02-08T21:36:08Z wasamasa: I have some thoughts on that, feel free to send me a /msg
2021-02-08T21:36:20Z Zipheir: M-x doctor
2021-02-08T21:36:25Z wasamasa: because that's definitely up and beyond this channel topic
2021-02-08T21:37:29Z amirouche: na
2021-02-08T21:37:40Z amirouche: I need sleep more than speaking to stranger.
2021-02-08T21:37:46Z amirouche: thanks for chat.
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2021-02-08T21:55:38Z Zipheir: Hmm, does Gambit not have some kind of library/module system?
2021-02-08T21:56:53Z mario-goulart: I think there's something called blackhole, which gives an idea about what you are getting into.
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2021-02-08T21:58:11Z wasamasa: lol
2021-02-08T21:59:46Z Zipheir: Heh.
2021-02-08T22:00:22Z Zipheir: Well, gerbil provides R7RS libraries, allegedly; it spits out most of the .sld files that I've tried, though.
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2021-02-09T01:15:06Z dieggsy: mario-goulart: loool
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2021-02-09T01:23:47Z jgart: does anyone happen to know some major differences of how the struct in racket is different from the record implemented by srfi-9?
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2021-02-09T01:24:03Z jgart: maybe just at the api interface level or how it behaves
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2021-02-09T01:56:07Z Zipheir: jgart: Racket structs come with a *lot* more, including subtyping, reflection, and other stuff.
2021-02-09T01:56:44Z Zipheir: jgart: R7RS/SRFI 9 records just give you something like the bare minimum.
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2021-02-09T02:46:17Z jgart: Zipheir thanks for the explanation!
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2021-02-09T04:26:26Z dieggsy: is common lisp's being a lisp-2 normally seen as a good thing?
2021-02-09T04:26:52Z dieggsy: it's just weird to me that common lisp was created after scheme but just... seemed to throw away a lot of scheme's really elegant design principles
2021-02-09T04:27:30Z dieggsy: not implying it was based on it at all, but they must have known about scheme and thought a different way was better...
2021-02-09T04:27:45Z dieggsy: which i find odd, but i guess potato potahto just my opinion
2021-02-09T04:28:15Z aeth: Lisp-1 vs Lisp-2 leads to different styles.
2021-02-09T04:28:28Z aeth: Lisp-2 makes higher order functions look cleaner
2021-02-09T04:28:45Z aeth: Lisp-1 means you can use the same name in multiple situations, e.g. for a function, a type, and a local variable.
2021-02-09T04:30:16Z aeth: In a Lisp-2, if you don't call your item of type list created with the function list a list, then you're kind of wasting the Lisp-2. (Notice how there are three, not two, major namespaces and an unbounded number of minor ones.)
2021-02-09T04:30:37Z aeth: s/Lisp-1 means/Lisp-2 means/
2021-02-09T04:31:12Z aeth: But a Lisp-2 also means you can't just do (define (foo f) (f 42))
2021-02-09T04:33:36Z aeth: #scheme will select for people who don't want to have to funcall. #lisp will select for people who embrace the naming style that I just described.
2021-02-09T04:34:27Z aeth: s/Lisp-2 makes higher order functions look cleaner/Lisp-1 makes higher order functions look cleaner/
2021-02-09T04:34:51Z aeth: The most confusing part is that the name is incredibly misleading, so it's kind of hard to keep the flawed terminology straight this late at night.
2021-02-09T04:35:22Z dieggsy: aeth: i'm actually familiar with both, i used SBCL a solid amount before discovering chicken scheme
2021-02-09T04:35:27Z dieggsy: (emacs-lisp before that, too)
2021-02-09T04:35:43Z dieggsy: ......i guess i do just prefer the scheme way
2021-02-09T04:36:02Z Zipheir: The λ-calculus way.
2021-02-09T04:36:37Z dieggsy: Zipheir: the _almost_ λ-calculus way, really
2021-02-09T04:36:38Z aeth: The Scheme way is the common way across most programming languages, but it doesn't really work in a quasi-case-insensitive language like Common Lisp because now what do you do with type names? Most languages would just have the type created by list be type List and use case sensitivity to distinguish.
2021-02-09T04:37:08Z aeth: Although types are mostly used in special contexts so it's not as big of a deal as the variable vs function namespaces.
2021-02-09T04:37:37Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Well, yeah.  But Church was writing first-class functions before Sussman and Steele were bore, so you've gotta give him credit.
2021-02-09T04:37:45Z Zipheir: s/bore/born/
2021-02-09T04:38:19Z dieggsy: Zipheir: i was less discrediting him and commenting that scheme isn't strictly lambda calculus
2021-02-09T04:38:22Z dieggsy: i think it's fascinating
2021-02-09T04:39:06Z Zipheir: Hah, I was joking.
2021-02-09T04:39:28Z dieggsy: heh, no wories
2021-02-09T04:39:31Z dieggsy: worries, even
2021-02-09T04:40:19Z aeth: does Λ-calculus count as almost λ-calculus? You're just missing some of the \
2021-02-09T04:40:27Z aeth: (I joke, but for all I know it exists)
2021-02-09T04:40:30Z dieggsy: heh
2021-02-09T04:41:12Z dieggsy: ʌ-calculus
2021-02-09T04:43:52Z Zipheir: Reminds me of the story that λ-calculus was supposed to be "hat calculus", but the publisher didn't know how to print the hat symbol and picked λ.
2021-02-09T04:44:06Z Zipheir: Bogus, but funny.
2021-02-09T04:44:41Z dieggsy: what even would be the hat symbol
2021-02-09T04:45:05Z Zipheir: e.g. ŷ
2021-02-09T04:45:48Z dieggsy: circonflexe
2021-02-09T04:45:52Z dieggsy: hat? hm
2021-02-09T04:46:09Z Zipheir: Sometimes called "hat" in mathematical texts.
2021-02-09T04:46:20Z Zipheir: The whole story got a massive amount of discussion on WP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lambda_calculus#please_remove_apocryphal_story_in_%22Origin_of_the_lambda_symbol%22
2021-02-09T04:46:20Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/a06HFooH0p
2021-02-09T04:47:24Z dieggsy: Zipheir: now that you mention it, i've definitely heard it as hat mathematically
2021-02-09T04:47:46Z dieggsy: i don't remember where... maybe somewhere in the black hole of engineering class memories
2021-02-09T04:50:40Z Zipheir: There's probably zero agreement on how to pronounce 80% of mathematical symbols.
2021-02-09T04:53:01Z Riastradh: eighty purse ent, um
2021-02-09T04:53:02Z dieggsy: are there schemes that allow λ instead of lambda other than uh, racket lol
2021-02-09T04:53:37Z dieggsy: (i'm not actually particularly a fan of λ in code, it's easy for me to type now that i've set up my compose key how i like it, but on the average computer it looks pretty but is not practical to type)
2021-02-09T04:53:48Z Zipheir: Guile, probably others.
2021-02-09T04:55:27Z Zipheir: There was a whole debate on the SRFI 26 ml as to whether anyone would bother with cut/cute if λ was how we wrote 'lambda' in Scheme.
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2021-02-09T05:04:27Z dieggsy: jajajaja
2021-02-09T05:04:34Z dieggsy: that's so funny
2021-02-09T05:05:01Z dieggsy: Zipheir: i'll try to find the link. ...though my thought would be yes, for previously stated reasons
2021-02-09T05:07:10Z Zipheir: Al Petrofsky just suggests 'l' in "l, the ultimate curry that is not curry": https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-26/msg/2783121/
2021-02-09T05:07:40Z Riastradh: l is hard to distinguish from 1, wouldn't want to confuse (l (x) (- (* x y) z)) with (1 (x) (- (* x y) z))
2021-02-09T05:08:49Z Zipheir: He also suggests λ, but recall that this was the Unicode Stone Age.
2021-02-09T05:09:03Z dieggsy: lmao
2021-02-09T05:10:40Z Zipheir: l is only a little bit worst than Haskell's '\'...
2021-02-09T05:10:49Z Zipheir: Ugh, s/worst/worse/
2021-02-09T05:11:50Z dieggsy: i'm rather fond of cut
2021-02-09T05:12:35Z Riastradh: cut is the worst and/or best part of prolog
2021-02-09T05:12:54Z Zipheir: Heh.
2021-02-09T05:13:14Z dieggsy: definitely don't follow, i know nothing about prolog except that it exists
2021-02-09T05:13:20Z Zipheir: Riastradh: But you'll never know which, because the rest of the search tree for that query has been cut.
2021-02-09T05:13:25Z Riastradh: well now you know that cut is the worst and/or best part of it
2021-02-09T05:13:50Z dieggsy: ja! just so
2021-02-09T05:14:17Z Zipheir: dieggsy: It's an (in)famous way to control the backtracking search process of Prolog.
2021-02-09T05:14:41Z Zipheir: miniKanren does not have cuts, which is a Good Thing, IMHO.
2021-02-09T05:15:41Z Zipheir: dieggsy: mK is the logic programming gateway drug for Schemers, BTW https://docs.racket-lang.org/minikanren/index.html
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2021-02-09T05:17:16Z dieggsy: Zipheir: i've heard that name thrown around a lot....
2021-02-09T05:17:20Z dieggsy: i'll have to look into it
2021-02-09T05:18:33Z Zipheir: It's simple and has an incredibly tiny implementation in its simplest form.  (Approximately 5 functions and 7 macros.)
2021-02-09T05:19:36Z Zipheir: Friedman, Byrd, Oleg, and Hemann cover it in The Reasoned Schemer, which is my personal favorite among the Little books.
2021-02-09T05:22:54Z dieggsy: i started the little schemer, but i really wasn't a fan of its style
2021-02-09T05:24:30Z Zipheir: It has been said that The Little Schemer is written for "8-year-old graduate students".
2021-02-09T05:25:13Z Zipheir: The style does take some getting used to.
2021-02-09T05:25:14Z Riastradh: did you follow the instructions about eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches while reading
2021-02-09T05:25:29Z Zipheir: It helps.
2021-02-09T05:25:40Z Zipheir: Quick! Eat donuts!
2021-02-09T05:26:31Z dieggsy: jajaja
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2021-02-09T07:43:56Z ecraven: which library is (scheme sort)?
2021-02-09T07:44:47Z ecraven: srfi-132?
2021-02-09T07:45:29Z Zipheir: Yes.
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2021-02-09T12:53:45Z ecraven: Riastradh: are there plans for MIT/GNU Scheme to support R7RS `import'?
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2021-02-09T13:25:49Z ecraven: ha, now I finally understand how srfi-168 actually stores its tuples in the store ;)
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2021-02-09T15:04:49Z Riastradh: ecraven: Allegedly there's supposed to be R7RS library support but I haven't done anything with it and I have no idea how it works -- all Chris's doing.
2021-02-09T15:05:48Z jcowan: dieggsy: CL was designed for as much backward compat with Maclisp as possible
2021-02-09T15:06:07Z lockywolf: https://lockywolf.wordpress.com/2021/02/08/solving-sicp/
2021-02-09T15:06:40Z lockywolf: org nicely allows building html in roughly the same way as pdfs. nice :)
2021-02-09T15:07:13Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks, I'll look at the commit history then
2021-02-09T15:07:21Z ecraven: I just tried starting a repl and (import (scheme base)), which fails ;)
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2021-02-09T15:15:46Z mangol: ecraven: Riastradh: define-library works only in a source file, not in the REPL. import works only inside define-library.
2021-02-09T15:16:12Z mangol: in the latest MIT Scheme that is
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2021-02-09T15:20:36Z ecraven: how do you load those libraries then?
2021-02-09T15:20:38Z ecraven: from the repl
2021-02-09T15:21:59Z Riastradh: dunno, UTSL, I guess
2021-02-09T15:22:23Z mangol: (load "...") IIRC
2021-02-09T15:27:17Z mangol: type into foo.scm: (define-library (foo) (export hello) (import (scheme base)) (begin (define (hello) "hello")))
2021-02-09T15:27:38Z mangol: then in the REPL, (load "foo.scm") and (import! '(foo)) and (hello)
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2021-02-09T15:31:42Z mangol: ecraven: if you want to do something complex, maybe send mail to the mailing list and volunteer as a beta tester? :)
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2021-02-09T15:37:13Z mangol: lockywolf: excellent report!
2021-02-09T15:38:17Z mangol: i've never heard of such a dedicated student. your SICP review will be heralded as legendary in a few years' time
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2021-02-09T15:43:29Z lockywolf: :)
2021-02-09T15:45:56Z ManDay: what did I miss? what 'd you do lockywolf ?
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2021-02-09T16:24:56Z lockywolf: just compiled my Scheme Workshop pdf into html
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2021-02-09T16:26:34Z mangol: with your permission, we could put it up on scheme.org. it would be great to amass a canonical set of resources to help SICP students
2021-02-09T16:26:39Z lockywolf: sorry, not pdf, the original org-mode file
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2021-02-09T16:36:29Z mangol: your blog is featured on https://planet.scheme.org/ btw
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2021-02-09T16:43:44Z ecraven: the idea of having complete f32 inside a nan-boxed immediate is certainly alluring for typical opengl-like code
2021-02-09T16:48:56Z jcowan: Very nice!  I think the main reason why we use unfashionable communications channels is the prevalence of old farts among us.
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2021-02-09T17:37:16Z mangol: that's a good thing. unfashionable communication channels are more resilient than fashionable ones. online communities of all kinds will be increasingly put to the test in the future.
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2021-02-09T17:37:45Z mangol: here as in so many places, it's an asset that lisp/scheme are so old.
2021-02-09T17:38:10Z mangol: and correspondingly have users of all ages well represented
2021-02-09T17:42:16Z aeth: Most places don't let you keep local logs on a PC anymore. (And mobile-only logs don't count. How often do you back up your smartphone? Can you even get to the data that belongs to other apps anymore?)
2021-02-09T17:42:40Z aeth: So the IRC "competitors" are essentially ephemeral.
2021-02-09T17:43:21Z aeth: Someone will have logs of this channel online long after the thing that comes after Discord dies, let alone Discord; and when those die, they're all taking all of their years/decades of logs with them.
2021-02-09T17:44:25Z aeth: Sure, for gaming that's fine and maybe even desirable, but for serious proglang stuff, historians might be interested in some things.
2021-02-09T17:47:03Z mangol: yeah. the balance of power has been shifted from users, to moderators, even more so to platform vendors, and most of all to governments. extrapolate a decade or two and that means some very bad things to a lot of people.
2021-02-09T17:48:46Z mangol: large-scale world-wide censorship of all public speech is already well on its way. even secluded communities are increasingly subject to it.
2021-02-09T17:49:19Z aeth: If the logs aren't available on the broader internet and they're not available locally, then you'll lose access to them. The service doesn't even need to go down. You might just lose access to them if you get banned.
2021-02-09T17:52:08Z mangol: that fits naturally into the broader trend where people are "cancelled" from a vast array of things for ever flimsier reasons
2021-02-09T17:56:58Z manumanumanu: Is there any nice mailing list where I can ask questions on matters of taste? I have a looping facility based on foof-loop and racket's loops and I have some questions about how I should go about defining the last little touches.
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2021-02-09T19:36:19Z dieggsy: manumanumanu:  you could always ask here
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2021-02-09T19:40:37Z manumanumanu: Alright... So, I have written an almost portable bastardisation of foof-loop/(chibi loop) and racket's for loops: https://git.sr.ht/~bjoli/goof-loop/ . Right now I provide simple forms: instead of (loop ((:for i (up-from 0 10)) (:acc sum (summing i))) => sum) I provide (loop/sum ((i (up-from 0 10))) i). Right now I wonder really what to call these simple forms. loop/sum is directly stolen from racket's
2021-02-09T19:40:38Z manumanumanu: for/sum, but it has no relation to the accumulating form (summing ...). Should I call them loop/summing (which I find long), or should each accumulating clause also provide a simple form: (summing ((i (up-from 0 10))) i)?
2021-02-09T19:45:00Z manumanumanu: I feel that loop/summing is the correct thing, but having each accumulating clause also register a simple form (as in: (summing clauses body ...) ) would be pretty slick.
2021-02-09T19:45:41Z Riastradh: Why a new one?
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2021-02-09T19:46:59Z Riastradh: (see also https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.scm for a collect-sum)
2021-02-09T19:47:13Z Riastradh: (collect-sum (for i (up-from 0 (to 10)) i)
2021-02-09T19:47:43Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/loop-comparison.scm
2021-02-09T19:50:22Z manumanumanu: I was under the impression that foof-loop did not support subloops: (loop/list ((a (up-from 1 5)) :subloop (b (down-from a 0))) b) => (0 1 0 2 1 0 3 2 1 0)
2021-02-09T19:51:45Z jcowan: An important consideration is documenting not only a loop API but its SPI (i.e. how to add new clauses)
2021-02-09T19:52:27Z Riastradh: try (collect-list (for a (up-from 1 (to 5))) (for b (down-from a (to 0))) b)
2021-02-09T19:52:47Z manumanumanu: I also wanted to add some support under the hood for srfi-158 generators to act as a more general sequence api. That way I could do (loop/list ((a (in-cycle (in-list '(#t #f)))) ...)
2021-02-09T19:52:55Z manumanumanu: and accumulators of course
2021-02-09T19:55:19Z Riastradh: see loop-comparison.scm for more examples, e.g. cartesian-product for loop nesting depths that depend on the input
2021-02-09T19:57:37Z Riastradh: documentation https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.txt
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2021-02-09T19:57:59Z Zipheir: manumanumanu: See also SRFI 196.
2021-02-09T19:58:19Z Zipheir: Ranges are a better choice than generators for that sort of thing (no side effects).
2021-02-09T20:00:26Z manumanumanu: Riastradh: The only documentation I found about foof-loop was the info available on your (?) site as a .txt or the chicken scheme egg. I had some other ideas that I didn't figure out how to squeeze into the chibi loop protocol (for clause finalizers, so we can have a working (in-file ...)). And I couldn't find the nested loop file...
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2021-02-09T20:00:41Z manumanumanu: Zipheir: instead of what?
2021-02-09T20:01:01Z Zipheir: "...support under the hood for srfi-158 generators..."
2021-02-09T20:01:12Z manumanumanu: Only "second order" iterator clauses like (in-cycle ...) depends on generators
2021-02-09T20:01:22Z Zipheir: Oy vey.
2021-02-09T20:02:19Z manumanumanu: currently doesn't work for anything else than in-list though.
2021-02-09T20:04:40Z Riastradh: manumanumanu: loop protocol is documented under `Writing Custom Iterators' in https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/foof-loop.txt, including finalization stuff (under assumption loop terminates with iterators or `while'/`until'; user can screw it up by escaping or not calling the explicit loop procedure)
2021-02-09T20:04:47Z manumanumanu: Riastradh: I have some other ideas that I am not sure would work with foof-loop either. Currently you can pattern match on body-variables, say iterating through an alist (:for (key . value) (in-list ...)), but I also want to add some way of controlling the binding of loop variables.
2021-02-09T20:05:08Z manumanumanu: whether like let, let* or match-let
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2021-02-09T20:06:54Z manumanumanu: Zipheir: the problem I would face with ranges is that I want the internal protocol to work with potentially lazy sequences: (in-cycle eternal-generator) should work, even though it would leak memory
2021-02-09T20:07:38Z manumanumanu: Riastradh: jeez... if your foof-loop implementation isn't peak syntax-rules I don't know what... Impressive!
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2021-02-09T20:23:43Z manumanumanu: anyway, there are bugs still I haven't worked out.
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2021-02-09T20:41:35Z manumanumanu: Riastradh: So, I have been reading the document a bit, and finalizers is simple in the "flat" foof without any subloops: you just add a dummy variable to the final binding. The presence of subloops screws that up: not only do you have to promote accumulators through the loop to keep their state (thus I separate :for and :acc clauses), and for-finalizers shoud be promoted in the "other" direction (accumulator
2021-02-09T20:41:37Z manumanumanu: clauses only need to be kept "below" where they are defined, whereas for finalizers are propagated to the inner loops). I haven't figured out how you do it in your nested loops, but I am looking at it.
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2021-02-09T20:53:57Z Riastradh: manumanumanu: nested loops are just, well, nested loops: (collect-list A B C body) is kind of like (loop (A) (loop (B) (loop (C) body)))
2021-02-09T20:54:21Z Riastradh: (plus some extra to accumulate the list and pass it up through the loops)
2021-02-09T20:54:37Z manumanumanu: Riastradh: but if you want to collect, say, multiplying and several (listing ...) along the way?
2021-02-09T20:55:24Z manumanumanu: Riastradh: see https://git.sr.ht/~bjoli/goof-loop/tree/master/item/tests.scm (which is very empty at the moment) to see what I mean.
2021-02-09T20:55:38Z manumanumanu: the last example
2021-02-09T20:58:48Z Riastradh: Yes, foof-loop doesn't have a native way to thread multiple accumulators through nested loops.
2021-02-09T21:01:47Z manumanumanu: Alles klar. I'll have alook at the source of your implementation. I only looked at alex's previously.
2021-02-09T21:01:51Z manumanumanu: Now it is sleep time
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2021-02-10T00:16:21Z dieggsy: see also srfi-42?
2021-02-10T00:16:51Z dieggsy: (upon which racket for loops are apparently based)
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2021-02-10T13:07:38Z Peetz0rMD: /!\ this channel has moved to ##hamradio /!\
2021-02-10T13:08:07Z LeoNerd: I find it unlikely, given you said the exact same in #perl
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2021-02-10T13:10:40Z ManDay: LeoNerd: You heard what the man said. Don't question it.
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2021-02-10T13:12:16Z LeoNerd: Willing to bet that's an attempt to spam large amounts of users with the magic screen-crashing UTF-8 sequence
2021-02-10T13:12:45Z ManDay: Why would someone waste their IPs for that kind of nonsense?
2021-02-10T13:12:48Z ManDay: What's to gain?
2021-02-10T13:12:58Z LeoNerd: Hah. I doubt they're using their own IPs ;)
2021-02-10T13:13:08Z ManDay: Yeah well, but they have wasted them anyway
2021-02-10T13:13:12Z LeoNerd: You can usually rent a blackmarket botfarm for a few dollars an hour
2021-02-10T13:13:29Z LeoNerd: That rate is cheaper than a cinema ticket
2021-02-10T13:13:43Z ManDay: Ah, so it's entertainment for them xD
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2021-02-10T13:14:27Z ManDay: Probably the kind of people who watch MS Windows defrag for a thrill
2021-02-10T13:14:36Z LeoNerd: Aww but that was fun to watch
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2021-02-10T13:14:44Z ManDay: hehe ^^
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2021-02-10T13:24:26Z ecraven: what is the first character of '|\arbin| ? a backslash, or '\a'?
2021-02-10T13:28:53Z mdhughes: (string-ref (symbol->string '|\arbin|) 0)
2021-02-10T13:33:36Z ecraven: so \a it is, according to r7rs too
2021-02-10T13:34:15Z ecraven: I'm so used to having \ escape things that languages where that *wasn't* the case and \ is just another normal character astound me.. looking at you, Interlisp :P
2021-02-10T13:47:26Z mdhughes: No, it's \ in Chez, anyway.
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2021-02-10T13:47:42Z mdhughes: || means all within is literal.
2021-02-10T13:48:21Z mdhughes: OH, weird, it's \a in Chicken.
2021-02-10T13:48:40Z ecraven: r7rs says it should be \a
2021-02-10T13:50:08Z mdhughes: Racket as well says \, as one expects. Tinyscheme says | because ha ha it doesn't have a real parser.
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2021-02-10T14:28:56Z jcowan: In R6RS there is no ||, and escaping is done solely by \.  In R7RS, \ is recognized inside || only.
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2021-02-10T14:57:24Z manumanumanu: dieggsy: well, goof-loop is already a lot more capable than srfi-42, since it is more or less (chibi loop) with changes to accomodate subloops. It also generates a lot better code than the reference implementation of srfi-42. My goal is to make it more flexible than the racket for loops, which in many ways it already is (what is lacking is the implementation of a general generator form for the iterators, and
2021-02-10T14:57:25Z manumanumanu: possible a srfi-158 accumulator form for the accumulators). That would make the "second order" sequence operations of racket supported (like (stop-before ...) (add-between ...) and things like that).
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2021-02-10T15:08:11Z mdhughes: While there's nothing in the R6 spec, in Chez || does something: '|foo| => foo, '|\foo| => \x5C;foo, '\foo => foo
2021-02-10T15:09:06Z mdhughes: '|foo bar| => foo\x20;bar
2021-02-10T15:14:10Z mdhughes: All the loop stuff just amuses me. for-each, or my very simple for & repeat loop macros, cover 90% of my problems, named let the other 10%. I don't see a big loop construct making readability better, and it's an extra dependency.
2021-02-10T15:14:51Z Riastradh: manumanumanu: One thing I found while working on this stuff is that it's easy to add so many general bells & flexible whistles that one can't remember how a single-use feature works in the place where it actually got used.
2021-02-10T15:15:51Z Riastradh: A good guideline is: defer naming a pattern until you've definitely seen at least three instances of it (and then only if the name makes it easier to understand than the pattern itself).
2021-02-10T15:28:52Z manumanumanu: Riastradh: That seems like a good idea. I just want to have some kind of general iterator protocol so that I can have things like (in-cycle ...). The inner workings will be hidden from the user, though. I am nearing the point of a first release, but first I want to fix a bunch of small annoyances (currently the first clause needs to be a :for clause for example. And I want to change the accumulator protocol
2021-02-10T15:28:54Z manumanumanu: so that I can easily stop the loop if an accumulator (like vectoring) becomes full). I will probably go back to the "roots" and make sure all clauses are parethesised, so :when (< a 5) becomes (:when (< a 5)).
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2021-02-10T15:29:44Z manumanumanu: The "general iterators" is the only thing I lack to have everything racket's for loops have, and all the extra stuff that i got from (chibi loop)/foof-loop.
2021-02-10T15:31:14Z manumanumanu: Then tests and it's release time!
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2021-02-10T16:12:08Z manumanumanu: Riastradh: does foof-loop include a syntax-rules named update macro, btw? Currently I fallback to syntax-case for that functionality
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2021-02-10T16:23:22Z Riastradh: `named update macro'?
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2021-02-10T16:25:17Z Riastradh: foof-loop's protocol should make it easy for accumulators to terminate, I would expect -- they are not distinguished from any other kind of iterator, so they can provide termination conditions.
2021-02-10T16:26:54Z manumanumanu: oh, but in the presence of subloops that breaks. The iterator "end" condition should just go out to the outer loop
2021-02-10T16:27:25Z manumanumanu: chibi loop does (loop-name (=> iterator-name update))
2021-02-10T16:27:49Z Riastradh: foof-loop does (loop-name (=> iterator-name update)) too, implemented by https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/syn-param.scm
2021-02-10T16:28:17Z manumanumanu: wowza! You are a syntax-rules wizard
2021-02-10T16:29:23Z Riastradh: (it can also do fancier forms like (loop-name iterator1 := update1 iterator2 := update2) but foof-loop doesn't do that)
2021-02-10T16:30:08Z Riastradh: (I think an early draft of foof's loop might have done (loop-name iterator1 <- udpate1).)
2021-02-10T16:30:15Z Riastradh: (which would explain the unnecessary generalization)
2021-02-10T16:31:09Z dieggsy: mdhughes: I'm so used to just named let and the occasional do that I hardly use anything else (except srfi-1 iterators for simple cases)
2021-02-10T16:33:42Z mdhughes: `do` is pretty ugly for the common cases, tho. And I always have to copy-paste an example to get it right, or I'll have my conditions reversed or something.
2021-02-10T16:36:31Z Riastradh: (dont loop ((for x (in-list L)) (for i (up-from 0))) ...)
2021-02-10T16:36:35Z dieggsy: hence "occasional". only for very simple cases
2021-02-10T16:37:07Z dieggsy: really just writing named let's everywhere mostly
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2021-02-10T16:42:26Z dieggsy: the most annoying thing about do is you can't reference other vars in the declarations bit. this makes it almost useless imo
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2021-02-10T18:04:41Z manumanumanu: dieggsy: you can add (let* loop (clauses ...) ...) for the initial bindings. That is one syntax-rules away
2021-02-10T18:06:18Z dieggsy: manumanumanu: sure, but at that point, may as well just use named let rather than create do* or something
2021-02-10T18:06:52Z manumanumanu: Riastradh: I have had a look at the syn-params. Mighty impressive!
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2021-02-10T18:49:24Z wasamasa: I've looked at https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-220/ earlier this morning and it feels kind of wrong
2021-02-10T18:49:41Z wasamasa: why'd you have special syntax for amounts to magic comments, but serialize them in a way not distinguishable from normal s-expressions
2021-02-10T18:50:13Z wasamasa: doesn't that kind of subvert the purpose or are you supposed to start the magic comment with a symbol your parsing code expects?
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2021-02-10T19:03:19Z dieggsy: manumanumanu: (let* loop (..) ...) actually doesn't work in chicken fwiw
2021-02-10T19:03:44Z manumanumanu: dieggsy: it doesn't work anywhere, I believe.
2021-02-10T19:04:12Z dieggsy: manumanumanu: oh, what were you suggesting earlier?
2021-02-10T19:05:12Z manumanumanu: that you write your own let* that expands to a succession of lets and an innermost named let.
2021-02-10T19:06:04Z dieggsy: oh. nah
2021-02-10T19:06:11Z dieggsy: certainly doable though
2021-02-10T19:08:02Z manumanumanu: hard to define properly though. What should the semantics be? Should the loop name be bound to a macro that ensures that the arguments are bound as let*? Should only the outermost binding form be let*, and the loop function be like a regular function application? Neither is a good choice :P
2021-02-10T19:09:07Z dieggsy: right. this is why i stick to named let
2021-02-10T19:09:16Z dieggsy: it's simple enough, don't have to lug an extra dep around with me
2021-02-10T19:11:18Z Zipheir: Higher-order functions!
2021-02-10T19:12:46Z duncanm: la la la
2021-02-10T19:13:01Z Zipheir: The chapter "Origami Programming" is an eye-opener on this count, and might well be subtitled "Fold: The Ultimate Loop" http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/jeremy.gibbons/publications/origami.pdf
2021-02-10T19:15:14Z manumanumanu: I am not sure I agree. I use them  a lot, but suddenly they become too slow. Then you rewrite it as a left fold, but when you are there, you might write the same code, often just as clear, as a named let and skip the overhead of the procedure call in schemes that don't optimize it.
2021-02-10T19:15:43Z manumanumanu: There is of course srfi-171, but you end up using a lot of characters...
2021-02-10T19:17:05Z Zipheir: There are many, many details to consider, of course.
2021-02-10T19:17:58Z Zipheir: But, in light of how complicated most loop macros get, and how long named-let loops get, I'm inclined to look for HOF solutions.
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2021-02-10T19:52:14Z dieggsy: long?
2021-02-10T19:55:48Z Zipheir: Sometimes.  Perhaps the more common issue is the inexorable line-after-line march to the right, which I think Olin Shivers called the "tail recursion tar pit" or something.
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2021-02-10T20:02:36Z Zipheir: Olin thinks that "map and fold are not the answer", but I'm not sure he really paid that much attention to them.  His solution is the massive "Olin loop" system, the implementation of which is a Flying Dutchman of Scheme (people pop up now and then saying that they've seen off the coast of an obscure server).
2021-02-10T20:02:50Z Zipheir: s/seen/seen it/
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2021-02-10T22:06:24Z dieggsy: lol
2021-02-10T22:06:56Z dieggsy: Zipheir: i feel like you can always modularize more and more with functions if your loops are getting crazy
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2021-02-11T04:12:02Z jgart: Hi, Is arithmetic-shift the same as the 2k-ary method?
2021-02-11T04:14:28Z jgart: arithmetic-shift is mentioned in Section 9.4 of https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit.html
2021-02-11T04:17:46Z Zipheir: "2k-ary"?
2021-02-11T04:17:58Z Zipheir: There's a version that takes 2,000 arguments?
2021-02-11T04:19:15Z Zipheir: Oh, I see the WP reference on #chicken.  Unless the implementation is documented, you'll have to RTFS and find out.
2021-02-11T04:19:20Z Zipheir: jgart: ^
2021-02-11T04:21:21Z Riastradh: `2k-ary method'?
2021-02-11T04:22:19Z jgart: Riastradh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponentiation_by_squaring#2k-ary_method
2021-02-11T04:23:18Z Riastradh: What would it mean for arithmetic-shift to be `the same as the 2^k-ary method'?
2021-02-11T04:23:43Z Riastradh: What (arithmetic-shift x n) returns is x * 2^n, not x^n.
2021-02-11T04:24:41Z jgart: I'm essentially trying to implement an optimized version of (pow 2 3) -> 8 using arithmetic-shift. Here's my slow implementation: https://paste.debian.net/1185030/
2021-02-11T04:24:59Z jgart: any hints, not the direct answer are greatly appreciated
2021-02-11T04:25:43Z Riastradh: Hint: If n = 2*m + b where b is either 0 or 1, you can get b with (bitwise-and n 1) and m with (arithmetic-shift n -1).
2021-02-11T04:26:14Z Riastradh: (alternatively, (remainder n 2) and (quotient n 2), which might be clearer for the reader)
2021-02-11T04:26:58Z Riastradh: well
2021-02-11T04:27:34Z Riastradh: That will help with the basic exponentiation by squaring method.
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2021-02-11T04:28:47Z Riastradh: If you want to use the 2^k-ary method, you'll need to compute f(n) = (s,u) where n = u 2^s.  That is, s is the number of leading zero bits, and u is what you get by shifting those bits off.
2021-02-11T04:30:41Z Riastradh: If you have something like n = #b110010100100000, you can get a mask #b11111 of all the leading zero bits with n ^ (n - 1).  This works because n - 1 borrows from the first 1 bit, giving #b110010100011111, and then xor clears all the other bits in common giving #b000000000011111.  You can then use integer-length to find how many leading zero bits there were.
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2021-02-11T04:45:52Z jgart: Riastradh, thank you for all the explanation. I'll have to study it a bit more
2021-02-11T04:49:19Z Riastradh: jcowan: If you copied the logsumexp documentation or implementation from MIT Scheme anywhere, er...what I wrote didn't make a whole lot of sense and you might want to git pull it again.
2021-02-11T04:51:27Z jcowan: What between hard-to-understand documentation and badly adapted code, I decided not to take further steps with it.
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2021-02-11T04:57:13Z Riastradh: The documentation is slightly less hard to understand now (the nonsensical edge cases I had hallucinated no longer clutter it up) and the code is slightly less bad now although a bit longer.
2021-02-11T04:58:27Z Riastradh: What does `badly adapted code' mean?
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2021-02-11T12:37:18Z siraben: Zipheir: https://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/loop.pdf looks very monadic to me
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2021-02-11T17:17:41Z Riastradh: So map is nondestructive -- it never alters its input list.
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2021-02-11T17:19:00Z Riastradh: Is the continuation to the call to the mapped procedure required/expected to be nondestructive too?
2021-02-11T17:19:25Z Riastradh: (Answer with normative references to standards/implementations about requirements or expectations or violations thereof.  Obviously if you want to use it with `amb', the answer has to be `yes', but this is a question about requirements or expectations, not about justification from first principles.)
2021-02-11T17:20:24Z Riastradh: Same for filter, take-while, delete, delete-duplicates, lset-union, &c.
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2021-02-11T17:24:28Z Riastradh: In MIT Scheme, map has not only never guaranteed this, but actually always violated this since 1996.
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2021-02-11T17:39:19Z Zipheir: Isn't the continuation to the call to the mapped procedure just "more map"?
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2021-02-11T17:41:00Z Riastradh: Well, here are three different implementations one might use:
2021-02-11T17:41:10Z Riastradh: (define (map f L) (if (pair? L) (cons (f (car L)) (map f (cdr L))) '()))
2021-02-11T17:41:38Z Riastradh: (define (map f L) (let loop ((L L) (R '())) (if (pair? L) (loop (cdr L) (cons (f (car L)) R)) (reverse! R))))
2021-02-11T17:42:44Z Riastradh: (define (map f L) (if (not (pair? L)) '() (let ((R0 (cons 0 '()))) (let loop ((L L) (R R0)) (if (pair? L) (let ((R (cons (f (car L)) '()))) (set-cdr! R0 R) (loop (cdr L) R0)))) (cdr R0))))
2021-02-11T17:43:01Z Riastradh: oops should be (loop (cdr L) R)
2021-02-11T17:43:06Z Riastradh: anyway
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2021-02-11T17:44:02Z Riastradh: The first one gives f a nondestructive continuation; the second two give f different destructive continuations.
2021-02-11T17:44:05Z Zipheir: None of those mutate L, AFAICT.
2021-02-11T17:44:30Z Riastradh: Correct.
2021-02-11T17:45:47Z Zipheir: So they're all valid implementations.  What would an implementation that violates that property look like?
2021-02-11T17:46:05Z Riastradh: The destructive continuations affect the _result_ that map may have already returned.
2021-02-11T17:46:51Z Zipheir: Oh.  Hmm.
2021-02-11T17:52:34Z Zipheir: There is this in R7: "If multiple returns occur from map, the values returned by earlier returns are not mutated."
2021-02-11T17:53:27Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20210211/evilmap.scm
2021-02-11T17:54:32Z Riastradh: (better, reload)
2021-02-11T17:56:46Z Riastradh: So there is.  How widely is that semantics respected?  Does that apply to anything other than map like filter?
2021-02-11T17:57:28Z ecraven: wouldn't it be very inconsistent if it *didn't* apply to those others?
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2021-02-11T17:59:24Z Riastradh: Asking about normative references and actual behaviour, not about first principles!
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2021-02-11T18:20:46Z ecraven: well, R7RS has that exact wording only for `map', `string-map' and `vector-map'
2021-02-11T18:30:51Z Zipheir: And SRFI 1 is silent on the issue.
2021-02-11T18:31:17Z Zipheir: "Most Scheme libraries are written as though call/cc doesn't exist." (Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen)
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2021-02-11T19:06:33Z Oxyd: Probably not unreasonable, otherwise you might have to pessimise the implementation just to support a very rare use-case. Wonder why R7RS mandates that for map specifically.
2021-02-11T19:16:19Z dpk: question about naming conventions:
2021-02-11T19:16:21Z gwatt: Standards are probably more heavily discussed than any old library
2021-02-11T19:17:07Z dpk: in Scheme, I/O operations are considered non-destructive/non-side-effectual for the purpose of procedure names
2021-02-11T19:17:20Z dpk: so we have display and not display!
2021-02-11T19:17:46Z aeth: which is incorrect
2021-02-11T19:18:04Z dpk: what if i have a procedure call that only directly does I/O, but in doing so causes remote state to change?
2021-02-11T19:18:21Z aeth: the standard is inconsistent in this area
2021-02-11T19:18:27Z dpk: like, say, it does an HTTP DELETE or something
2021-02-11T19:18:32Z aeth: it should be "display!" but it's not
2021-02-11T19:18:55Z Zipheir: dpk: Do you consider the remote state to be part of the state of your program?
2021-02-11T19:19:01Z dpk: are there other IO operations which have bangs in their names?
2021-02-11T19:19:25Z dpk: Zipheir: ooh, good question. i’d guess so, yes
2021-02-11T19:19:39Z Zipheir: Then bang it is.
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2021-02-11T19:22:36Z dpk: aeth: i know Kernel (a cleaned-up Scheme with first-class special forms by means of fexprs) has display! etc. (it also has <?, >?, etc instead of < and > ...)
2021-02-11T19:23:21Z dpk: but i chalked that up to a deeper difference in philosophy concerning the nature of IO procedures
2021-02-11T19:23:38Z aeth: afaik r7rs has renaming so you can just create a library that has the corrected names if "display!" over "display" matters to you
2021-02-11T19:24:24Z dpk: well, it doesn’t, i’m happy to accept Scheme’s convention, i was just wondering about this particular case
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2021-02-11T19:27:03Z mdhughes: I/O isn't destructive, it's not modifying data in your program.
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2021-02-11T19:28:46Z gwatt: Not entirely true. You have string and bytevector input/output ports which act like IO but definitely modify data.
2021-02-11T19:28:53Z mdhughes: Even (with-output-to-string) is a return value, you have to assign it where you want.
2021-02-11T19:29:10Z mdhughes: It doesn't set a variable or redefine anything.
2021-02-11T19:29:19Z Zipheir: Except the universe.
2021-02-11T19:29:56Z Zipheir: (Hence the traditional World -> World types of I/O functions.)
2021-02-11T19:29:57Z mdhughes: The Universe is a big 'un, it can take care of itself.
2021-02-11T19:32:18Z mangol: (write "foo") to a string port mutates the string port
2021-02-11T19:32:21Z dpk: i think the distinction between Scheme and Kernel might be summed up as that Scheme uses ! for destructive procedures, while Kernel uses it for side-effectual procedures (a somewhat larger, not to say less vaguely defined, category)
2021-02-11T19:33:06Z dpk: destructive meaning it affects the memory state of your program; everything else is Somebody Else’s Problem
2021-02-11T19:33:07Z mdhughes: (cons) modifies memory, but it's not cons!
2021-02-11T19:33:28Z mangol: set-car! changes the contents of a pair without changing the `eq` identity of the pair
2021-02-11T19:33:44Z mangol: `write` changes the contents of a string port without changing the `eq` identity of the string port
2021-02-11T19:33:47Z mangol: what's the difference?
2021-02-11T19:33:52Z Zipheir: Indeed, some languages consider memory references to be effects.
2021-02-11T19:34:11Z mdhughes: You've convinced me it should be `set-car`
2021-02-11T19:34:32Z mdhughes: (really, pairs shouldn't be mutable, that's a giant bug-spawner)
2021-02-11T19:34:39Z Zipheir: Yup.
2021-02-11T19:34:55Z mangol: wouldn't that mean that no procedures end with !
2021-02-11T19:35:00Z mdhughes: But record setters make sense to be Foo-bar-set! because a field is like a variable.
2021-02-11T19:35:09Z Oxyd: I think the important part for me is purity. I can call (f x y z) however many times I want, and I'll always get the same result. (f! x y z), on the other hand, does not work that way.
2021-02-11T19:35:10Z mangol: car and cdr are like variables!
2021-02-11T19:35:14Z mdhughes: Variable setters and deleters are !
2021-02-11T19:35:25Z mangol: a pair is a record with two anonymous fields
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2021-02-11T19:35:28Z dpk: there are Schemes with immutable pairs
2021-02-11T19:35:39Z mangol: yes, racket for example has immutable pairs by default
2021-02-11T19:35:41Z mdhughes: Yeah, Racket's often insane but it gets that right.
2021-02-11T19:35:45Z gwatt: should define be define! because it modifies the lexical environment?
2021-02-11T19:35:51Z mdhughes: Yes.
2021-02-11T19:36:03Z mdhughes: Obviously, since set! is.
2021-02-11T19:36:21Z mdhughes: Much of this is "whatever LISP did, but fix a few things"
2021-02-11T19:36:34Z dpk: Oxyd: i can call (set-car! x 'foo) as many times as i like and it will always do the same thing
2021-02-11T19:36:37Z mangol: there's nothing obvious about any of this stuff
2021-02-11T19:36:39Z mdhughes: If you want a functional assignment, you'd use (letrec)
2021-02-11T19:36:46Z dpk: Kernel indeed has $define!
2021-02-11T19:36:56Z dpk: ($ indicating a special form)
2021-02-11T19:37:12Z Oxyd: dpk: You're right. It does, however, mean that (car x) will no longer return what it did before.
2021-02-11T19:37:46Z Zipheir: Oxyd: Again, though, "purity" vs. "effectual" is not a black and white divide.  (f x y z) might trigger an exception if some area of memory is currently offline (in, say, a distributed system).
2021-02-11T19:37:54Z Oxyd: So I suppose a better way to word it would be that the purity of any procedure can only be broken by a call to a !-named procedure.
2021-02-11T19:37:57Z dpk: but iirc It Is An Error to `define` the same name more than once in the same lexical contour, no?
2021-02-11T19:38:16Z dpk: i don’t have the spec to hand
2021-02-11T19:38:20Z mangol: Oxyd: you're getting close to a good definition
2021-02-11T19:38:29Z mdhughes: impl-specific.
2021-02-11T19:38:34Z mangol: but (read) is deeply side-effet-dependent and doesn't have !
2021-02-11T19:38:47Z mangol: that's why Haskell IO monad etc.
2021-02-11T19:38:58Z mdhughes: What side effects from `read`?
2021-02-11T19:39:04Z dpk: impl-specific is what It Is An Error (currently) means ;-) at least in R7RS
2021-02-11T19:39:24Z Zipheir: But then, Haskell weirdly doesn't consider retrieving OS info (I forget the name of the function) to be IO.
2021-02-11T19:39:32Z mangol: mdhughes: apart from modifying the port, and depending on others who modified the port before, it depends on other programs that wrote to the file
2021-02-11T19:39:33Z Oxyd: `read` advances the current position of the port it's reading as a side-effect.
2021-02-11T19:39:56Z Oxyd: Plus it might cause an effect in the real world.
2021-02-11T19:40:04Z Oxyd: Well, outside world.
2021-02-11T19:40:10Z Oxyd: I suppose Scheme is real.
2021-02-11T19:40:20Z mdhughes: Right, but it doesn't affect your program state, only the Universe.
2021-02-11T19:40:41Z Zipheir: There's no referential transparency with read.  The value of (read) depends on conditions outside of the current computational context.
2021-02-11T19:40:44Z mdhughes: I can (read) all day, and I'll eventually get (eof-object), but the program is unchanged.
2021-02-11T19:40:48Z mangol: Oxyd: someone should write a Scheme themed short story in the style of The Stranger.
2021-02-11T19:40:51Z mangol: by Camus
2021-02-11T19:41:20Z Oxyd: I usually write my programs specifically to make some changes in the Universe, so I care about when I do make those changes.
2021-02-11T19:41:32Z Zipheir: Well put. :)
2021-02-11T19:41:40Z mdhughes: Only (set! foo (read)) modifies the program based on that I/O.
2021-02-11T19:42:10Z mdhughes: I care about the results of (+ x y), too, but it shouldn't be (+! x y)
2021-02-11T19:42:30Z Oxyd: (+ x y) changes neither your program, nor the rest of the Universe.
2021-02-11T19:42:36Z mangol: (+ x y) doesn't modify the place where the sum comes from. (read) modified the place where the read datums come from
2021-02-11T19:42:40Z mdhughes: OK, (random)
2021-02-11T19:42:49Z Oxyd: Now, that one's more interesting.
2021-02-11T19:43:18Z mdhughes: It's changing all sorts of internal values, but you don't care, you can perpetually (random) and your program's unchanged, until you assign it with a set!
2021-02-11T19:43:41Z mangol: what causes this drive to arrive at black-and-white delineations of complicated topics?
2021-02-11T19:43:43Z Oxyd: Since random is essentially (let ((result (vector-ref sequence i))) (set! i (+ i 1)) result).
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2021-02-11T19:43:54Z Oxyd: (For an imaginary pseudo-random sequence.)
2021-02-11T19:44:00Z mangol: the topic is clearly not cut and dried so why pretend that it is?
2021-02-11T19:44:32Z mdhughes: Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My compromise of 0.5 was rejected without, I thought, proper consideration.
2021-02-11T19:44:32Z mdhughes: — Stan Kelly-Bootle
2021-02-11T19:44:47Z Zipheir: Interestingly, the initialization of a PRNG can be considered effectual, but, after that, calling the PRNG is not.
2021-02-11T19:45:04Z Zipheir: It's not arbitrary, it's subtle.
2021-02-11T19:45:12Z Oxyd: I do often care about the changes made by random. It's very useful to be able to reproduce a program's run multiple times even if it depends on pseudo-random number generation.
2021-02-11T19:45:15Z dpk: huh, according to R7RS-small 5.3.1 it's actually completely valid to define the same name more than once
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2021-02-11T19:45:47Z Oxyd: Then again, if the seed is set and you don't change the program itself, it'll give the same answers, assuming everything else in the universe it cares about stays the same.
2021-02-11T19:46:05Z dpk: set! on an unbound variable is verboten, but define on an already-bound one isn't
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2021-02-11T19:46:17Z Zipheir: dpk: Weird.
2021-02-11T19:46:50Z mdhughes: In Chez, (random-seed) is a parameter, which is a weird middle ground (0.5), but if I was doing it from scratch I'd use (randomize!) to initialize, but (random) to read.
2021-02-11T19:46:52Z Zipheir: I thought redefinition was unspecified...
2021-02-11T19:47:01Z dpk: maybe it was in R5RS
2021-02-11T19:47:13Z mangol: but read modifies the port so it whould be `read!` then
2021-02-11T19:47:30Z mdhughes: It's not part of the program, it's the Universe.
2021-02-11T19:47:34Z Oxyd: I think redefinition of imported symbols is unspecified, but defining the same name multiple times is okay. define is essentially set!, except it also introduces a new binding if one doesn't already exist.
2021-02-11T19:47:42Z mangol: wtf? a string port exists only in the program
2021-02-11T19:47:57Z mangol: and the port position of an external port may exist only to the program
2021-02-11T19:47:59Z dpk: although i guess actually forbidding it is annoying in some contexts, like a REPL where i may wish to paste in a new version of a broken procedure and not have to change it to use (set! ... (lambda ...))
2021-02-11T19:48:04Z gwatt: dpk: yeah, I think the repl semantics of schemes allow redefinition, but in library forms it's probably disallowed
2021-02-11T19:49:59Z mangol: that would seem like the right call
2021-02-11T19:50:44Z mangol: a language where all mutations and IO go through the type/effect system can offer a rigorous definition of what's side effecting and what's not in that language
2021-02-11T19:51:16Z mangol: the point is probably that without such rigor it's not useful to quibble too much about the details of what's a destructive operation and what's not
2021-02-11T19:51:51Z mangol: since we can point out contradictions in all definitions one might come up with
2021-02-11T19:52:51Z Zipheir: There's no !-checker in most Schemes.
2021-02-11T19:53:18Z Zipheir: It's only slightly more meaningful than the %- convention for internal procedures.
2021-02-11T19:53:25Z mangol: exactly. and if you tried to define a !-checker you'd probably end up with a full-fledged static type/effect system
2021-02-11T19:54:14Z Zipheir: There are gradually-typed models with linear types.  One doesn't have to through out dynamic typing to get that.
2021-02-11T19:54:29Z Zipheir: (This is a direction for Scheme that I'm finding very interesting.)
2021-02-11T19:54:35Z mangol: but do they apply to the entire language?
2021-02-11T19:54:42Z mdhughes: It could just check the contents of each function for ! (including our new `define!`), and add a !. Loop until every function has a !. Pure text transforms!
2021-02-11T19:54:58Z Zipheir: mangol: How so?
2021-02-11T19:55:25Z Zipheir: Oops, s/through/throw/
2021-02-11T19:55:45Z mangol: can you prove things about a gradually typed language the way you can about a guaranteed well-typed language? e.g. that you can find all side-effecting operations
2021-02-11T19:56:12Z mangol: granted that e.g. ML doesn't find side effects since the type system ignores those (except some recent work on OCaml)
2021-02-11T19:57:45Z Zipheir: mangol: It would probably be necessary to have two dynamic types, Dyn and Dyn!, for nonlinear and linear computations, respectively.
2021-02-11T19:58:06Z mangol: and by default everything's nonlinear until proven otherwise?
2021-02-11T19:58:47Z Zipheir: The exact compatibility rules of Dyn! and other types might be a little tricky.  Presumably linear types are only compatible with linear types.
2021-02-11T19:59:07Z Zipheir: Nonlinear by default seems like the only sane way to go.
2021-02-11T19:59:53Z mangol: if effect types and gradual typing was added to scheme, we'd have to assume everything is side-effecting by default
2021-02-11T20:00:07Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's bogus.
2021-02-11T20:00:15Z Zipheir: This would really be a different language.
2021-02-11T20:00:18Z mangol: excepting some primitives like car and string-ref, if we can prove those bindings point to the primitives with those names
2021-02-11T20:01:09Z mangol: that's why i'm not a fan of gradual typing :) static and dynamic are fine but the hybrids are weird and complicated
2021-02-11T20:02:25Z mangol: there's probably some law about programming communities that all conversations in them are fundamentally about type systems, and only occasionally veer into other topics, only to return again
2021-02-11T20:02:59Z Zipheir: Well, propositions are types, and conversations tend to contain a lot of propositions (if little evidence).
2021-02-11T20:03:18Z mangol: i think type systems research is considered important because there are so many obvious concrete things that can be done about it.
2021-02-11T20:03:22Z Zipheir: I agree that gradual typing can get pretty hairy.
2021-02-11T20:03:32Z dpk: the inconsistency around ! doesn't really bother me about Scheme, but the bizarre combination of a preference for monomorphism (implying we should always know the exact type of everything) and dynamic typing (so we can't actually be sure our assumptions about that are correct at compile-time) is something i do find odd
2021-02-11T20:03:35Z mangol: distributed systems are a thousand times more important than type systems, but nobody knows how to solve that stuff.
2021-02-11T20:03:47Z dpk: (but so baked into the language that it's practically not Scheme any more if you change either)
2021-02-11T20:03:53Z mangol: dpk: good poind :D
2021-02-11T20:03:55Z mangol: *point
2021-02-11T20:04:52Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's an excellent point.
2021-02-11T20:04:57Z mangol: real-time and reactive systems, fault tolerance, how to get people to write documentation that doesn't suck, and actually enjoy writing it. all of these are much more important than type systems, but we're at a loss for what to do.
2021-02-11T20:05:34Z mangol: but we can always figure out how to add another knob to a type system, especially if there's no limit to how convoluted we allow the type system to get
2021-02-11T20:05:39Z Zipheir: mangol: It's not as though people *aren't* trying to work on those problems.  I don't think this is an either/or situation.
2021-02-11T20:05:55Z mangol: i'm not referring to the work so much as the fervor
2021-02-11T20:06:10Z mangol: why isn't there more fervor about much more important topics?
2021-02-11T20:06:34Z Zipheir: Isn't there?
2021-02-11T20:07:03Z Zipheir: Why is it important to attack interest in type systems just because you'd like to see more interest in some other topic?
2021-02-11T20:07:12Z dpk: well, given how many languages have type systems which are undecidable now …
2021-02-11T20:07:21Z mangol: i'm not attacking it, just making fun of it lightly
2021-02-11T20:07:29Z Zipheir: It's like getting angry about people talking about football instead of space exploration.
2021-02-11T20:07:35Z dpk: https://3fx.ch/typing-is-hard.html
2021-02-11T20:07:43Z mangol: i'm not angry
2021-02-11T20:07:50Z mangol: i'm amused
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2021-02-11T20:08:15Z mangol: football vs space exploration is also amusing. not that there's anything wrong with getting angry about it now and then too
2021-02-11T20:08:49Z Zipheir: dpk: That page is a nice resource.
2021-02-11T20:09:25Z mangol: but anyway i answered my own question. there's less fervor about more important topics because they are vague and daunting. moving on :)
2021-02-11T20:10:09Z Zipheir: mangol: It was a bad analogy.  I'd argue that type research can actually be very useful for dealing with, say, distributed systems.  The contracts of some distributed models have very nice formalizations as types, I believe.
2021-02-11T20:10:30Z Zipheir: (I mean, my football/space exploration was a bad analogy.)
2021-02-11T20:11:13Z mangol: so one of the main problems causing cell phone networks and cryptocurrencies not to scale, and large scale video broadcasting to be slow or expensive, is lacking type safety?
2021-02-11T20:11:38Z mangol: again, i'm just messing around. it's not that serious :)
2021-02-11T20:11:45Z Zipheir: If there's one thing that I feel disappoint about, it's the Tower of Babel problem we have between programming communities; I need dictionaries to go between OOP and functional discussions.
2021-02-11T20:12:06Z mangol: i think your analogy was very much on point
2021-02-11T20:12:53Z Zipheir: mangol: Anyone claiming type theory is going to solve the world's problems is bonkers in a very unusual and endearing way.
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2021-02-11T20:17:45Z mangol: anyway it would still be great to have statically typed scheme too :)
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2021-02-11T20:19:53Z wasamasa: SML
2021-02-11T20:20:23Z mangol: SML FTW
2021-02-11T20:20:43Z Zipheir: Pie exists.
2021-02-11T20:20:52Z Zipheir: Although it only runs on Racket atm.
2021-02-11T20:22:20Z Zipheir: Extensions would be needed for general programming; general recursion, at the very least.  https://github.com/the-little-typer/pie
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2021-02-11T20:25:46Z mangol: Zipheir: wow, i had no idea there's http://thelittletyper.com/
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2021-02-11T20:27:22Z gwatt: I should finish that book
2021-02-11T20:28:29Z mangol: Zipheir: if you have ideas for alleviating the tower of babel problem, i would be very interested in that. my idea is just to manually write stuff that is compatible, with some macros and conventions to automate some of the porting work. no fundamental new insight required.
2021-02-11T20:29:11Z mangol: the TUNES project had some ideas for automatic translation (based on types and proofs, curiously enough!) but i dont' understand them
2021-02-11T20:29:55Z mangol: if types could solve the tower of babel problem, they would in fact be as important as all the other stuff.
2021-02-11T20:31:04Z mangol: if not more. enormous amounts of time and money are wasted daily because things that are conceptually compatible are not compatible in inessential technical details
2021-02-11T20:32:47Z Zipheir: Heh, and you thought C FFI was difficult...
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2021-02-11T20:34:59Z Zipheir: Part of the conceptual challenge is that so many popular programming communities seem to be allergic to math.  Mention category theory (IMHO, a great conceptual unifier) to some OOP fans and you may get trolled out of the room.
2021-02-11T20:36:21Z mangol: do OOP people have a particular competitor to category theory?
2021-02-11T20:36:23Z Zipheir: I think Oleg is a good example of someone who sees issues in a non-tribal way.  His work is often a great starting point.
2021-02-11T20:36:34Z Zipheir: (And Riastradh, obviously.)
2021-02-11T20:36:47Z Zipheir: UML???
2021-02-11T20:37:21Z Zipheir: (https://ro-che.info/ccc/29)
2021-02-11T20:37:29Z mangol: wow. i had the impression that dynamic OOP people are not impressed by UML, and maybe not by modeling in general, but i don't really know that.
2021-02-11T20:37:54Z Zipheir: I don't know.  I'll have to ask more OOPers.
2021-02-11T20:38:36Z mangol: part of the problem is that experienced OOPers are not easy to identify as a group
2021-02-11T20:39:00Z mangol: and don't have a set of beliefs or a doctrine that is obvious to outsiders
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2021-02-11T20:39:33Z mangol: i've many times genuinely wanted to find out more about it, but there's no obvious place to start
2021-02-11T20:40:17Z mangol: Alan Kay is great, but he speaks in very, very broad terms so it's hard to bring it down to the level of "ok, so what kinds of smalltalk classes should i write"
2021-02-11T20:40:42Z mangol: heh that comic is great
2021-02-11T20:42:20Z Zipheir: The Gang of 4 is *not* the place to start.  That's all I've figured out thus far.
2021-02-11T20:42:36Z mangol: and the smalltalk luminaries outside PARC tend to be so "enterprise"-focused that it's hard for schemers and FPers who are at ease with heavy abstraction to get much to digest beyond "test driven development and user stories are great"
2021-02-11T20:42:46Z Riastradh: So many functional programming communities are addicted to math.  Mention category theory (IMHO, generalized abstract nonsense) to some Haskell fans and you may get drowned out of the room with endocofunctorial tales full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
2021-02-11T20:43:02Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Also accurate.
2021-02-11T20:43:24Z Zipheir: Although "addiction" is an abused term, I believe, and not very helpful.
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2021-02-11T20:43:45Z Riastradh: Yes, but it alliterated well with `allergic'.
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2021-02-11T20:47:50Z Zipheir: Every community has their favorite arcane languages, I guess.
2021-02-11T20:48:16Z mangol: that tends to be one of the main social problems in programming. there are people who don't care at all about abstraction and rigor, and people who care excessively about abstraction and rigor.
2021-02-11T20:48:35Z Zipheir: Both sufficiently advanced OOP theory and FP talk are indistinguishable from satire.
2021-02-11T20:49:46Z mangol: that's similar to other fields where there are hairy problems no-one knows how to solve, and some invention that is ready to tinker with that kinds goes in the direction of a solution but not really
2021-02-11T20:50:36Z mangol: libertarianism in politics, or in pharmacology in health
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2021-02-11T20:52:55Z jcowan: It's simple to get people to write documentation that doesn't suck:  pay them.
2021-02-11T20:53:12Z jcowan: See the Interlisp documentation, which was written by professional documenters.
2021-02-11T20:53:16Z Zipheir: Most programmers would probably say they consider abstraction and rigor important.  They've got what seem to be very different ideas about what those things mean, though, and inter-tribe discussions can become unbelievably acrimonious.  (Almost hitting academia-level acrimony!)
2021-02-11T20:53:28Z gwatt: jcowan: The trick is to convince the moneybags that documentation is worth paying for
2021-02-11T20:54:06Z jcowan: Indeed.
2021-02-11T20:54:16Z jcowan: I solve that problem by not talking about abstraction and rigor.
2021-02-11T20:54:50Z Riastradh: rigor abstractis is setting in
2021-02-11T20:54:54Z gwatt: In my workplace documentation is everyone's job, which means there are usually three-ish places to find anything, all of which disagree and are out of date.
2021-02-11T20:55:23Z gwatt: We then got bought and merged with another company, which has the exact same problem
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2021-02-11T20:57:48Z mangol: oh, yes. the checklist mentality leads to that. we'll look weak to our peers if we don't have this line-item crossed off the list.
2021-02-11T20:59:00Z mangol: Zipheir: indeed, some groups are very rigorous about their testing procedures for example. some are rigorous about planning.
2021-02-11T20:59:16Z mangol: or meeting deadlines.
2021-02-11T21:01:23Z mangol: it has to be said though, that things where you formalize a messy ill-defined real-world problem are often the ones that cause unreasonable enthusiasm
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2021-02-11T21:03:54Z mangol: that's what scrum/agile, types, proofs, UML modeling, design by contract, have in common. libertarianism "people are a mess, just solve everything with contracts". medicine "people are really machines, just isolate the one broken part."
2021-02-11T21:04:32Z Oxyd: I think that's really unfair to medical professionals.
2021-02-11T21:05:18Z mangol: i don't by any means mean to knock down medicine as a whole, but a wide spectrum of things go under that banner
2021-02-11T21:05:30Z mangol: it's clear that it wasn't a good idea to say anything about the topic :)
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2021-02-11T21:09:34Z Riastradh: architecture astronauts `people are predictable, just sum entire professions into one-sentence aphorisms'
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2021-02-11T21:35:50Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Since that's not technically a sentence, it might be accurate?
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2021-02-11T23:18:10Z tatsumaru: hey guys, what do you think about nondeterministic turing machines?
2021-02-11T23:19:14Z tatsumaru: do you think it's possible to simulate nondeterminism with a deterministic machine?
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2021-02-11T23:56:11Z jcowan: In the sense that it is possible to simulate nondeterministic random-number generators with deterministic ones.
2021-02-11T23:57:54Z Oxyd: Usually by simulating a nondeterministic Turing machine, one means creating a deterministic machine that gives the same answers for the same inputs. Which is rather different from trying to make something that appears random on a deterministic machine.
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2021-02-12T05:16:11Z mdhughes: Paying people to do stuff? That violates the Computer Communism Foundation's 500-page manifesto. And corporate devs don't need docs because it's job security.
2021-02-12T05:17:11Z mdhughes: All programming theories are the result of people with too much downtime, not enough actual programming to solve real problems.
2021-02-12T05:26:49Z Zipheir: Uh huh, uh huh.  We'd have very few computers if people had stuck to "real problems".
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2021-02-12T05:29:47Z Zipheir: "What a weirdo that guy Alonzo with his weird computability stuff was.  What does the Ain't Shy Dungs Problem have to do with the price of beans?"
2021-02-12T05:29:52Z mdhughes: Computers were invented to solve real problems, German cryptography, accounting, etc.
2021-02-12T05:30:48Z mdhughes: Even AI has occasional practical goals, like the extermination of Man. Uh, conveniently identifying birds or something.
2021-02-12T05:39:03Z Zipheir: But they rest on theories that had no apparent practical value at the time of their discovery.  That hard-boiled "real world" myopia misses a lot of details.
2021-02-12T05:41:59Z mdhughes: So you've got one mathematician (whose problem was "I need to publish or perish"), and his co-author had practical problems to solve.
2021-02-12T05:43:33Z Zipheir: You mean this practical problem? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entscheidungsproblem
2021-02-12T05:44:21Z Zipheir: λ-calculus and Turing machines were both attempts to solve that, as you probably know already.
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2021-02-12T05:53:24Z Zipheir: Anyway, why attack projects or topics just because they're "impractical"?
2021-02-12T05:54:20Z Zipheir: We've obviously learned most of what we know about the universe because of impractical people.
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2021-02-12T06:12:16Z siraben: Zipheir: ++
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2021-02-12T06:13:50Z siraben: funnily enough, number theory was even regarded as one of the purest branches of mathematics for thousands of years and it's used to solve very real problems in cryptography
2021-02-12T06:17:32Z siraben: "Thousands of years ago, the Egyptian priesthood developed the rudiments of geometry in order to figure out how to restore the boundaries of fields that were destroyed in the flooding of the Nile." - Abelson, SICP
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2021-02-12T07:24:53Z mangol: Zipheir: if you're referring to this channel, i don't people have been attacking anything, just pointing out that some fields are prone to unreasonable expectations about how much that field can solve and how soon.
2021-02-12T07:28:22Z mangol: i think communities like this, where people stir things up on the regular, are extremely valuable to have. it's important that a subset of the people in an intellectual community regularly try the boundaries of good conduct
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2021-02-12T07:28:48Z mangol: because if people don't, those boundaries keep closing in by default.
2021-02-12T07:29:55Z mangol: see for example: mainstream culture in the west in the last couple decades
2021-02-12T07:31:04Z mangol: being kind is a virtue. being nice is not a virtue.
2021-02-12T07:33:43Z mangol: (in case it isn't obvious, good thinking and good conduct often don't mix. it's rude to point out someone's dearly held opinions are wrong)
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2021-02-12T07:39:14Z Zipheir: I was referring to mdhughes's Glengarry Glen Ross-esque spiel.
2021-02-12T07:40:22Z mangol: we should all be very grateful to have people like mdhughes on our channel. we don't know how good we have it.
2021-02-12T07:40:23Z Zipheir: And I wouldn't encourage anyone in this or other channels to "try the boundaries of good conduct".
2021-02-12T07:41:14Z mangol: if we excise "rude" people, we'll get something far, far worse. a culture where dissent of all kinds is gradually made impossible
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2021-02-12T07:42:31Z mangol: why wouldn't you encourage it?
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2021-02-12T07:46:11Z Zipheir: Explicitly testing the boundaries with aggressive interaction makes channels unpleasant, and it's unnecessary.  I've had plenty of experience with communities which never warned anyone who behaved aggressively, etc. and which, as a result, eventually turned into nasty, abusive places.
2021-02-12T07:48:16Z Zipheir: Anyone who's been on the Internet for more than a short while probably knows similar anti-communities.
2021-02-12T07:51:11Z mangol: i don't know what to make of that. it's hard to debate without examples of specific communities. i think the distinguishing factor is whether it's always the same people giving offense, and the same people who have to take offense
2021-02-12T07:51:48Z mangol: a community where everyone is offended regularly may be healthiest in the long term
2021-02-12T07:52:23Z mangol: a community where some people are singled out is bad, but so is a community where being nice is more important than being right
2021-02-12T07:53:20Z mdhughes: That was a GGR spiel? Always Be Computing.
2021-02-12T07:53:41Z mangol: mdhughes tells me "wtf are you thinking?" and i tell him "wtf are you thinking?" every now and then. that's a good community. we both have to question our assumptions.
2021-02-12T07:53:51Z Zipheir: Moderation is a delicate thing.
2021-02-12T07:53:56Z mdhughes: First prize is a new compiler. Second prize is you get to implement another loop macro. Third prize is you go home and write theory.
2021-02-12T07:54:39Z mdhughes: Despite having seen both the play and the movie, that presentation's about all I can remember of it.
2021-02-12T07:55:12Z Zipheir: Hah, I've only seen the movie.
2021-02-12T07:55:21Z mdhughes: I dunno why people get all panicky when I don't like something they do. They don't like what I do half the time, neither!
2021-02-12T07:55:36Z mangol: mdhughes: i feel exactly the same way
2021-02-12T07:56:58Z mangol: i'm offended about a couple dozen times a day on average. that's a good thing. one can choose to take offense or not to take offense.
2021-02-12T07:57:16Z Zipheir: It's often a matter of the language and the focus of the criticism.
2021-02-12T07:58:17Z mdhughes: I'm pretty careful when I point at people. Ideas get a full blast of either sarcasm or technical deconstruction. You can't get too attached to ideas, they're gonna die quick.
2021-02-12T07:58:18Z Zipheir: "Be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you receive" remains good guidance.
2021-02-12T07:59:20Z mangol: i don't agree at all with the praise of moderation as a virtue that's part of the current zeitgeist
2021-02-12T08:00:04Z Zipheir: Which meaning of moderation is that?
2021-02-12T08:00:44Z mangol: heh, i was wondering which meaning you used as well :D i'm using it in the sense of taking the middle way, or being measured and reserved
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2021-02-12T08:04:14Z Zipheir: People have been advising (philosophical) moderation for a long time, although I'm not sure any of them agree on the details.
2021-02-12T08:05:01Z mangol: intelligent people disagree on pretty much every topic, and generally always done so
2021-02-12T08:05:21Z mangol: you pick out the ones that support your preconceived notions
2021-02-12T08:05:49Z mangol: there are even intelligent people who think reading is bad for you
2021-02-12T08:06:36Z Zipheir: Yes, but disagreements on controversial topics can be friendly and respectful.  That's a very different thing than attacking people in a channel.
2021-02-12T08:08:31Z mangol: i think this channel is friendly
2021-02-12T08:09:26Z Zipheir: There's a familiar false equivalence: "We have to be allowed to offend people! That's why we insult everyone and attack them for their ignorance."
2021-02-12T08:10:10Z mangol: in an intellectual community, if everyone is insulted, that's better than if no-one's insulted.
2021-02-12T08:10:43Z Zipheir: Which is quite a different attitude from seasoned netizens who can hold respectful debates, even on highly controversial topics.
2021-02-12T08:11:01Z mangol: are our debates disrespectful?
2021-02-12T08:11:17Z Zipheir: It's obviously not an exclusive-or situation.
2021-02-12T08:11:36Z Zipheir: No, clearly not, I think.
2021-02-12T08:12:21Z mdhughes: Who's been insulted?
2021-02-12T08:12:44Z mangol: yet i felt agitated enough to start this conversation, and you felt agitated enough to continue it. that means we're trying the boundaries of good conduct.
2021-02-12T08:12:47Z Zipheir: No-one in #scheme, as far as I know.
2021-02-12T08:13:10Z mdhughes: All right, then.
2021-02-12T08:13:30Z mangol: it's a vital conversation to have every now and then too
2021-02-12T08:13:39Z Zipheir: I'm not feeling agitated.  It's an interesting topic.
2021-02-12T08:13:45Z Zipheir: I agree.
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2021-02-12T08:14:43Z mangol: i felt offended; that's a neutral feeling. i still feel agitated; that's a good feeling. i feel insulted daily by the zeitgeist in the west. that's a bad but very necessary feeling.
2021-02-12T08:15:23Z Zipheir: I will say that, personally, I am extremely opposed to stopping people from discussing topics on the grounds that those topics might be offensive to some.  Any topic might be!
2021-02-12T08:15:52Z Zipheir: But it's a false equivalence used by trolls to claim that name-calling and aggression are somehow Socratic activities.
2021-02-12T08:16:08Z Zipheir: I'm sorry to hear that you feel agitated.
2021-02-12T08:17:04Z mangol: sorry to hear that i feel good? :D being agitated feels good.
2021-02-12T08:17:38Z Zipheir: Well... good, then. :)
2021-02-12T08:17:44Z mangol: it is :)
2021-02-12T08:17:51Z Zipheir: In any case, it's quite late here, and I need sleep.
2021-02-12T08:17:55Z mangol: sure
2021-02-12T08:17:58Z Zipheir: Good <time of day>, all!
2021-02-12T08:18:04Z mangol: likewise! good night!
2021-02-12T08:20:31Z mdhughes: "What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"
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2021-02-12T08:37:02Z mangol: mdhughes: lol
2021-02-12T08:38:12Z mangol: if i'm reading you right, you tapped into one of the main problems of our age. that it has become socially acceptable and virtuous to use neutrality as a guise for timid or passive-aggressive behavior.
2021-02-12T08:38:27Z mangol: i.e. using fake neutrality as a proxy for real power
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2021-02-12T15:21:34Z amirouche: helllo #scheme  :)
2021-02-12T15:21:54Z amirouche: disclaimer: I promise one day I will release a working [end-user] software.
2021-02-12T15:21:56Z ecraven: hey ;) did you want to talk to me a few days ago? I fell into a Medley-sized hole ;)
2021-02-12T15:22:13Z amirouche: ecraven: we talked about your fortune
2021-02-12T15:22:19Z ecraven: ah
2021-02-12T15:22:21Z amirouche: ecraven: you found something about maximal chains?
2021-02-12T15:22:45Z ecraven: I did, but then I realized it doesn't matter, as it is trivial for triplestores, and I don't want any quintuplestores or something like that
2021-02-12T15:22:54Z amirouche: ecraven: hehe
2021-02-12T15:22:55Z ecraven: I still want to continue working on that, but as I said, Medley
2021-02-12T15:23:01Z ecraven: Interlisp interfered ;)
2021-02-12T15:23:03Z amirouche: what medley?
2021-02-12T15:23:09Z ecraven: www.interlisp.org
2021-02-12T15:24:36Z amirouche: looks cool.
2021-02-12T15:24:54Z amirouche: I have too riddles / problem this week.
2021-02-12T15:25:43Z amirouche: s/too/two/
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2021-02-12T15:26:21Z amirouche: A) Problem A, since many users of srfi-167, and in general okvs do not get that the API is the query domain specific language, I am thinking about merge okvs-ref, okvs-range and possibly okvs-prefix-range into a single  okvs-query procedure.
2021-02-12T15:26:42Z ecraven: do you know cl-facts? that seems like it has a nice query language abstraction
2021-02-12T15:26:51Z amirouche: the idea is that there is "query" in the name of the procedure so, it shall be for querying.
2021-02-12T15:27:02Z amirouche: ecraven: sounds like something for srfi-168
2021-02-12T15:27:12Z ecraven: maybe
2021-02-12T15:28:21Z amirouche: ecraven: in fact, I just looked, cl-facts can be implemented and prolly should be implemented on top of nstore-where and nstore-from for similar reasons as problem A
2021-02-12T15:28:52Z ecraven: amirouche: why does the srfi specify nstore-select, shouldn't that be called nstore-from?
2021-02-12T15:29:07Z ecraven: also, it seems that cl-fact only needs *one* procedure for both nstore-where and nstore-from
2021-02-12T15:29:15Z amirouche: ecraven: in particular the facts:with
2021-02-12T15:29:27Z amirouche: ecraven: yeah that is that I think is neat
2021-02-12T15:30:18Z amirouche: ecraven: I was asked to rename it, and agreed. because nstore-select / nstore-from will generate the seed of the follow-up generators, unlike SQL FROM that target a table.
2021-02-12T15:30:34Z amirouche: follow-up nstore-where
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2021-02-12T15:31:11Z amirouche: nstore-select -> seed then that seed is filtered, improved by going throught multiple nstore-where or other generator procedures.
2021-02-12T15:31:59Z amirouche: nstore-query is really a threading macro for generators.
2021-02-12T15:32:40Z amirouche: sort-of.
2021-02-12T15:33:31Z amirouche: I think about (okvs-query a . b) where then rely on pattern match (cons a b) to dispatch the the correct procedure.
2021-02-12T15:33:58Z amirouche: the thing is all the complexity / difficulty is getting the arguments correctly, which is odd in scheme imo
2021-02-12T15:34:53Z amirouche: so to stay user-friendly to the programmer, it must somehow handle faulty arguments.
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2021-02-12T15:36:15Z amirouche: I forgot about problem B at the moment.
2021-02-12T15:37:18Z amirouche: anyway the question of problem A, is somewhat philosophy, while okvs-query reduce the apparent API surface since it merge three procedures (okvs-ref, okvs-range, okvs-prefix-range) that are simple, okvs-query is far from simple.
2021-02-12T15:38:15Z amirouche: so it seems like dilemma between user lazyness to grasp something new ie. "using procedures to query a database instead of string DSL like SQL or slightly better s-exp DSL"
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2021-02-12T15:39:02Z amirouche: With python, I would create a class that overrides the comparison operators, so that db.range(a, b) becomes db.query(a <= selector < b)
2021-02-12T15:39:21Z amirouche: for once, I like operator overloading.
2021-02-12T15:39:59Z amirouche: where `selector` is a immutable instance of the class with overloaded comparison operators.
2021-02-12T15:46:02Z amirouche: s/overloader/overriden/
2021-02-12T15:50:04Z jcowan: What is this cl-fact of which you speak?  Dr. Googlecat coughs up a random hairball of responses, and there is no such package in the quicklisp index.
2021-02-12T15:50:21Z amirouche: https://github.com/facts-db/cl-facts
2021-02-12T15:50:29Z ecraven: sorry, missing a letter https://github.com/facts-db/cl-facts
2021-02-12T15:50:38Z ecraven: I'm tempted to try to port that to Scheme ;)
2021-02-12T15:51:06Z ecraven: amirouche: also, is there any way to write the object of the svo tuple in the *value* of the kvs? it seems like large subjects would be non-ideal if encoded in the *key*
2021-02-12T15:54:48Z amirouche: ecraven: it depends if you need to keep the nstore ordered.
2021-02-12T15:55:45Z amirouche: if order is significant between svo tuples, then you can not. Otherwise, you can swap a tuple item with an identifier and associated the identifier with value possibly with a hash.
2021-02-12T15:55:54Z amirouche: I do the latter
2021-02-12T15:56:24Z amirouche: since I have lot of data, I disallow querying the nstore with something else but exact-match tuple items.
2021-02-12T15:56:33Z amirouche: and I compress the tuple items.
2021-02-12T15:57:23Z amirouche: I mean, the tuple items because idenfiers of compressed values in another subspaces, the hash allows to retrieve the identifier based on the value, to avoid to add multiple times the same value in the database (deduplicate)
2021-02-12T15:58:27Z amirouche: it looks like (uid) -> hash ; (hash) -> value then nstore contains only uids.
2021-02-12T15:59:01Z amirouche: and you query, you need to resolve the uid into a value but at some point.
2021-02-12T15:59:31Z amirouche: that's why it is really good to be able to have bytevectors as tuple item.
2021-02-12T16:00:51Z amirouche: there is various algorithm to allocate uids, it depends on the usecase and database. For foundationDB, look into timestamped key or HightContentionAllocator (tho, in my use case, not a lot  of writes, I use an integer that I increment)
2021-02-12T16:03:33Z amirouche: by the way in the versioned store, I found some use of the value column of the okvs, unlike right now where tuple items are stored such as (uid key value commit alive?) -> (), alive? is not necessary in the key, because I consider you never query alive? = #t or #f, so instead, I can use (uid key value commit) -> (alive?) which reduce the storage factor from 10 to 6.
2021-02-12T16:04:37Z amirouche: which means in practice, that 3TB of textual RDF, will be less that 3TB in the database, even before applying compresssion (zstd)
2021-02-12T16:05:37Z amirouche: (with the added value that you can query it, that it preserve history and that you can still do time traveling queries)
2021-02-12T16:07:37Z amirouche: 3T ~ wikidata one year ago. prolly more like 4T today.
2021-02-12T16:07:50Z amirouche: if the scholar project succeed.
2021-02-12T16:11:50Z jcowan: The essence of an okvs is that you can do an exact query or a prefix query or a exact-to-the-end query, I think.  Without those things it is not an *orsdered* kvs.
2021-02-12T16:17:32Z amirouche: exactly
2021-02-12T16:19:34Z amirouche: when I wrote, that when using an identifier as indirection to store tuple items in the value column and use that identifier in nstore tuples, the nstore is ordered, but natural order of the value is lost because of the indirection, but equality still works.
2021-02-12T16:20:45Z amirouche: with that indirection, for instance, you can ask queries such as: give me all people called John around Paris, without more effort (dereferencing the identifier via the hash etc..)
2021-02-12T16:21:56Z amirouche: In C terms, the indirection is a pointer, an in that particular case `item` is
2021-02-12T16:22:23Z amirouche: In C terms, the indirection is a pointer, an in that particular case `item` stored in the nstore is a pointer `*item` is hash and `**item` is the actual interesting value.
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2021-02-12T16:25:26Z amirouche: another way to use pseudo C syntax, can be `item` is a pointer stored in a tuple inside the nstore, hash = *item->value, then value = *hash->value. except in C, you can dereference a hash (it just to explain the "jumps")
2021-02-12T16:26:19Z amirouche: the very previous example *item is written with scheme such as (okvs-ref item)
2021-02-12T16:26:44Z amirouche: the very previous example -- *item->value -- is written with scheme such as (okvs-ref item)
2021-02-12T16:29:54Z amirouche: which means *(*item->value))->value is written (define value (okvs-ref (okvs-ref item)))
2021-02-12T16:30:00Z amirouche: that is much nicer with scheme
2021-02-12T16:30:19Z amirouche: than this pseudo c syntax.
2021-02-12T16:39:40Z amirouche: Another way to look at this dereferencing thing in SQL terms, it is like doing a JOIN.
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2021-02-12T16:43:27Z jcowan: If you are going to do that, you might as well give up on ordering and go with a simple key-value store.
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2021-02-12T16:45:11Z jcowan: The advantage of an OKVS is that you can do triple stores by entering each triple three times, once keyed by S, once by V, and once by O.
2021-02-12T16:46:01Z ecraven: couldn't you just give every entry an "ID", then enter that ID under all three items, and the actual entry under the ID?
2021-02-12T16:46:23Z amirouche: I am not sure about the "once keyed..." that is the reason the theorem of maximal chains exists. Otherwise, ordering is used for matching exactly.
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2021-02-12T16:47:03Z amirouche: ecraven: that exactly what I am saying ID = identifier. But you also need a HASH to deduplicate (it is NOT ONLY an optimization)
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2021-02-12T16:47:20Z amirouche: If the same value can have multiple values, it does not work.
2021-02-12T16:47:33Z amirouche: If the same value can have multiple IDs, it does not work.
2021-02-12T16:48:27Z amirouche: apparantly state of the art cryptographic hash is blake3
2021-02-12T16:48:55Z amirouche: not cpu or memory strong but little or no chance of collision.
2021-02-12T16:49:32Z amirouche: (also one can choose the hash size, which is nice to have in some occasions)
2021-02-12T16:50:34Z jcowan: I'm confused here.  What is it that an "ID" identifies?
2021-02-12T16:51:04Z amirouche: ID identifies the hash and the hash idenfies the value
2021-02-12T16:52:43Z ecraven: couldn't the id *be* the hash?
2021-02-12T16:53:09Z ecraven: you take the triple, you hash it, you enter it under hash -> full value, then you enter each part of the tuple -> hash
2021-02-12T16:53:17Z amirouche: ecraven: sorry, yes the id can be hash, going through a small ID is an identifier.
2021-02-12T16:53:23Z amirouche: ecraven: sorry, yes the id can be hash, going through a small ID is an OPTIMIZATION.
2021-02-12T16:53:37Z amirouche: it is an on-disk space optimization.
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2021-02-12T16:54:15Z ecraven: is a triplestore just not a good use for something like storing long texts or files as the objects of a triple?
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2021-02-12T16:56:09Z amirouche: it depends of the triple store or the okvs. There is not enough documentation about that. FDB has 10kb IIRC max key size. but wiredtiger:
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2021-02-12T16:56:21Z amirouche: > Row-store keys and values, and variable-length column-store values, can be up to (4GB - 512B) in length. Keys and values too large to fit on a normal page are stored as overflow items in the file, and are likely to require additional file I/O to access.
2021-02-12T16:56:27Z amirouche: http://source.wiredtiger.com/3.2.1/file_formats.html
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2021-02-12T16:57:38Z amirouche: in wiredtiger, it is also limited by transaction max size, that can be set by the user much less than available ram.
2021-02-12T16:58:00Z amirouche: much less because wiredtiger seems to only work with the whole dataset in ram.
2021-02-12T16:59:02Z amirouche: someone on lispcafe was complaining they could not find dataset that are interesting and big enough, according to them 4TB is not enough, also they have more than 4TB or RAM. They were working at Allegro IIRC.
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2021-02-12T17:25:42Z jcowan: So like this:  hash(s) -> tuple -> tuple, hash(o) -> tuple, where we make sure that all S, O, and V hashes are drawn from disjoint sets.
2021-02-12T17:25:56Z jcowan: arrgh
2021-02-12T17:26:17Z jcowan: hash(s) -> tuple, hash(v) -> tuple, hash(o) -> tuple
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2021-02-12T17:30:01Z Riastradh: hsah tuple hash tuple hash hash tuple tuple
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2021-02-12T17:39:44Z jcowan: Better "tuple tuple hash hash", I think.
2021-02-12T17:39:46Z lf94: Hey! I have a scheme question. Do you feel a type system is necessary in scheme?
2021-02-12T17:40:02Z Zipheir: Ugh, why did SRFI 146 go against other dictionary-type libraries and allow mapping-map to create new associations?
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2021-02-12T17:40:47Z Zipheir: lf94: A type system is always necessary, even if it's one that only exists in your head while programming.
2021-02-12T17:41:28Z Zipheir: (Data you have no type for is data you know nothing about.)
2021-02-12T17:42:01Z lf94: Mmm, I meant an explicit type system.
2021-02-12T17:42:22Z Zipheir: Scheme has that.
2021-02-12T17:42:46Z lf94: I'm a scheme noob :)
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2021-02-12T17:43:22Z Zipheir: It doesn't give the compiler a lot of information to work with, but at least it's not a "weak" typing discipline (i.e. data doesn't get silently coerced).
2021-02-12T17:43:37Z lf94: Yes that is a big reason why I asked
2021-02-12T17:43:41Z lf94: In JS, this is terrible
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2021-02-12T17:44:34Z Zipheir: That's one of the major non-Lispy things about JS, indeed.
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2021-02-12T17:45:12Z lf94: I'm really debating on sinkin time into Scheme. I've sunk time into learning Coq, and while it's nice, I'd like to use something a little more widely supported.
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2021-02-12T17:45:45Z lf94: Coq was really great for getting a good mental model of working in functional based languages
2021-02-12T17:45:51Z Zipheir: Coq is awesome.  Certainly a very different thing from Scheme, though.
2021-02-12T17:46:00Z lf94: Yeah I love it.
2021-02-12T17:47:12Z Zipheir: If you like Coq, you might be interested in The Little Typer.  https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/little-typer
2021-02-12T17:47:49Z lf94: :)
2021-02-12T17:49:34Z Zipheir: Although that uses a Scheme-like language with static typing; The Little Schemer is the classic Scheme intro.
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2021-02-12T17:53:55Z jcowan: There is coercion from exact to inexact numbers, though.
2021-02-12T17:55:08Z Zipheir: Oh, yeah.  I always gloss over the numeric system.
2021-02-12T17:56:11Z amirouche: regarding permuations of SPO. Rotations of SPO are a solution of "query any pattern in one hop" but SPO, POS, and OPS because you can not query a pattern in one hop where O and S are known, because there is no permutation in the set that starts with SO or OS.
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2021-02-12T17:59:25Z amirouche: SPO, POS and OPS start with different item, they are not a rotation and they are not a solution of "query any pattern in one hop"
2021-02-12T18:00:05Z amirouche: (for n=4 and n=4 you can find a permutation subset that contains rotations that a minimal solution, but I do not know whether rotation are necessary)
2021-02-12T18:01:31Z jcowan: True, you need 6 entries to get it right if you have only exact lookup.
2021-02-12T18:02:03Z lf94: Is coercion between those two number types obvious?
2021-02-12T18:02:50Z jcowan: It's what makes sure that (+ 1 2.0) => 3.0 instead of a type error.  So I'd say so, yes.
2021-02-12T18:03:22Z lf94: Ah.
2021-02-12T18:03:30Z lf94: IMO that type of coercion is acceptable
2021-02-12T18:03:47Z amirouche: (The ordered nature of the okvs is taken into account when using a hash as item, exact match lookups works over any pattern, the problem is natural order of the hashed value that is not taken into account in the hash, since hash can only preserve identity)
2021-02-12T18:04:24Z amirouche: jcowan: you are correct, sorry I misread.
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2021-02-12T18:16:06Z amirouche: (... can only preserve identity, except Locality-Sentitive Hashing algorithm like fuzzbuzz hash https://hyper.dev/2019-11-12-FuzzBuzz-Hash-Algorithm-2d5c1e387cdc4dc79732326d5ef7d9bc.html)
2021-02-12T18:16:32Z amirouche: I am not sure it can be called a hash.
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2021-02-12T18:32:11Z ecraven: jcowan: why shouldn't (+ 1 2.0) => 3 though?
2021-02-12T18:35:06Z jcowan: because 2.0 is not exact; it may be the result of some arbitrary computation.
2021-02-12T18:35:37Z jcowan: almost all operations involving at least one inexact number produce inexact results
2021-02-12T18:35:58Z aeth: also, what would you do if it was infnan instead of 2.0?
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2021-02-12T18:35:59Z jcowan: (* 1.5 0) is one of the exceptions; it can produce 0 or 0.0
2021-02-12T18:37:16Z jcowan: aeth: not sure I understand.
2021-02-12T18:37:50Z Zipheir: Silent conversion to inexact is probably fine; the other way is almost never fine.
2021-02-12T18:39:04Z ecraven: why is (zero? 0.0) #t then?
2021-02-12T18:39:57Z Zipheir: It may not be?
2021-02-12T18:40:13Z ecraven: well, on every of the 4 schemes I just tried it is
2021-02-12T18:40:38Z ecraven: 7 even
2021-02-12T18:40:58Z ecraven: how is that different from "2.0 being not 2"
2021-02-12T18:42:45Z Zipheir: Well, you can avoid relying on those predicates when doing operations on inexacts.
2021-02-12T18:43:16Z ecraven: if 2.0 is not exact, why is (= 2 2.0) then?
2021-02-12T18:43:35Z ecraven: I'm just saying, I don't find "inexact" to be a very good argument, because it then leads to a lot of other questions
2021-02-12T18:43:49Z Zipheir: It would be a Bad Thing if the arithmetic operators, e.g. silently converted inexacts.
2021-02-12T18:43:55Z ecraven: floating point is definitely not "inexact" for a lot of use cases
2021-02-12T18:44:18Z Zipheir: But it's very inexact in some other cases, so there's the rub.
2021-02-12T18:44:21Z ecraven: ah, but they *do* convert exact to inexact silently, and quite some functions silently treat *some* inexacts as exacts anyway
2021-02-12T18:45:46Z Zipheir: Maybe we should just go floating-point all the way.
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2021-02-12T18:47:22Z jcowan: Arguably functions like integer? and zero? shouldn't be defined on inexact numbers, but the behavior is grandfathered.
2021-02-12T18:48:38Z jcowan: R6RS silently changed the meaning of integer?, when applied to a complex number, to be true only if the imaginary part is exact 0, and introduced integer-valued? for the R[57] meaning where the imaginary part just has to be = to 0.
2021-02-12T18:49:02Z jcowan: I keep thinking about how to bring the R6RS behavior into the R7RS, but the problem is with names.
2021-02-12T18:50:00Z aeth: jcowan: (+ 1 +inf.0)
2021-02-12T18:50:02Z jcowan: Will Clinger claims that (a) approximately no programs depend on the difference, and (b) that since I injudiciously copied some examples from R6RS, it is all right to implement R7RS and R6RS integer? the same way.
2021-02-12T18:50:32Z jcowan: I know of nobody else who thinks examples are normative, but there it is.
2021-02-12T18:50:51Z jcowan: aeth: What can that be but +inf.0?
2021-02-12T18:50:58Z aeth: Right.
2021-02-12T18:51:24Z aeth: But if you were to consistently prefer exact, then you would probably want to introduce an "exact" inf, for consistency.
2021-02-12T18:51:49Z jcowan: There is a SRFI for that, using -1/0 and 1/0 as the literals
2021-02-12T18:52:21Z jcowan: it could reasonably be extended to exact NaN as well using 0/0.
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2021-02-12T20:07:54Z Riastradh: ecraven: The idea is that the exactness bit serves as a record of a past approximate computation or measurement.
2021-02-12T20:08:31Z Riastradh: An IEEE 754 floating-point machine even has its own version of that, although it's for the whole machine rather than for individual values.
2021-02-12T20:09:12Z ecraven: but doesn't it seem inconsistent to sometimes treat floats as exact and sometimes not?
2021-02-12T20:09:31Z Riastradh: What do you mean?  What treats them sometimes as exact and sometimes not?
2021-02-12T20:16:15Z ecraven: (zero? 0.0) is exact, but (+ 1 0.0) is not
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2021-02-12T20:18:31Z Riastradh: The exactness bit doesn't carry through booleans, it's true.  (In contrast, the IEEE 754 inexact-result exception stays set persistently, as part of the machine state rather than as part of any individual value.)
2021-02-12T20:19:25Z Riastradh: What would you want (zero? 0.0) to do?  Return #f.0 instead of #f?  Augment every type of object in Scheme with an exactness bit?
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2021-02-12T20:23:48Z Oxyd: Inexact booleans would really help set Scheme apart from other languages.
2021-02-12T20:24:31Z amirouche: MayDay you miss a great moment
2021-02-12T20:24:42Z amirouche: Oxyd: fuzzy booleans?
2021-02-12T20:25:37Z Riastradh: #t.0 instead of #t, I mean
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2021-02-12T20:26:35Z gwatt: Can we have inexact inexacts? 1.0.0 ?
2021-02-12T20:26:36Z Riastradh: Note that 0.0 still represents zero, not, say, some interval of real numbers.  The distinction between 0 and 0.0 is just that 0 carries a bit saying `the computation that produced me was not approximate' whereas 0.0 carries a bit saying `the computation that produced me may have involved approximations'.  So it is correct for (zero? 0.0) to return true, because 0.0 is, in fact, zero (along with an
2021-02-12T20:26:42Z Riastradh: additional bit warning you of potential past errors).
2021-02-12T20:26:45Z amirouche: most of the time I open this window and there is a convo, I learn something new.
2021-02-12T20:27:18Z Riastradh: gwatt: Well, the hardware will still maintain an inexact-result exception bit!  So in principle you could have both the Scheme exactness bit _and_ the IEEE 754 inexact-result exception bit.
2021-02-12T20:27:50Z amirouche: TIL
2021-02-12T20:28:04Z amirouche: a lot
2021-02-12T20:28:19Z amirouche: I did not know inexactness was a warning for past errors.
2021-02-12T20:29:24Z Riastradh: For example:
2021-02-12T20:29:25Z Riastradh: (begin (flo:clear-exceptions! (flo:supported-exceptions))
2021-02-12T20:29:26Z Riastradh:        (let ((r (* 1.5 1/10)))
2021-02-12T20:29:26Z Riastradh:          (list r (flo:exceptions->names (flo:test-exceptions (flo:supported-exceptions))))))
2021-02-12T20:29:29Z Riastradh: ;Value: (.15000000000000002 (inexact-result))
2021-02-12T20:29:31Z Riastradh: (begin (flo:clear-exceptions! (flo:supported-exceptions))
2021-02-12T20:29:34Z Riastradh:        (let ((r (* 1.5 1/2)))
2021-02-12T20:29:36Z Riastradh:          (list r (flo:exceptions->names (flo:test-exceptions (flo:supported-exceptions))))))
2021-02-12T20:29:39Z Riastradh: ;Value: (.75 ())
2021-02-12T20:30:46Z Zipheir: That's really cool.
2021-02-12T20:30:55Z jcowan: The consequences of augmenting booleans are dire: just see the SQL 3-valued logic, which is a mess
2021-02-12T20:31:26Z jcowan: What is the value of x < 3 or x = 3 or x > 3 in SQL, for example?
2021-02-12T20:31:33Z jcowan: (where x is some scalar)
2021-02-12T20:31:44Z Riastradh: In the first example, there are two roundings: one to convert 1/10 to a floating-point number (0.1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625; you can write 0.1 unambiguously because it's the nearest floating-point number to 0.1),
2021-02-12T20:31:47Z amirouche: fuzzy logic is related to this convo?
2021-02-12T20:32:23Z amirouche: ah it is exactness / inexactness so it applies to fuzzy logic but not part of the convo (/me confused with exact / inexact booleans)
2021-02-12T20:32:44Z Riastradh: and another one to compute (* 1.5 0.1), which gives 1.50000000000000008326672684688674053177237510681152343750 but is then rounded to 1.5000000000000002220446049250313080847263336181640625.
2021-02-12T20:33:47Z Riastradh: er
2021-02-12T20:34:04Z Riastradh: 0.15000000000000000832667268468867405317723751068115234375 and 0.15000000000000002220446049250313080847263336181640625, excuse me
2021-02-12T20:34:07Z amirouche: you typed 1/10 and 1/2 instead of 1/10 and 0.1 ?
2021-02-12T20:34:36Z Riastradh: No, I'm saying that in computing (* 1.5 1/10), there are two roundings incurred by the computation, both of which lead to raising the inexact-result exception.
2021-02-12T20:35:07Z Riastradh: The first is rounding 1/10 to 0.1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625, and the second is in rounding the product from 0.15000000000000000832667268468867405317723751068115234375 to 0.15000000000000002220446049250313080847263336181640625.
2021-02-12T20:35:12Z amirouche: please proceed I will after.
2021-02-12T20:35:29Z amirouche: rounding happens because of what the hardware / software can reprepsent ?
2021-02-12T20:35:55Z Riastradh: In the second example, computing (* 1.5 1/2), there are no rounding errors: the floating-point arithmetic is computed exactly.  But Scheme returns 0.75, rather than 3/4, to carry forward the bit in the input 1.5 that indicated `this may be tainted with error from an approximate computation in the past'.
2021-02-12T20:36:36Z Riastradh: Correct: there are only 53 bits of precision, and you need more than 53 bits to represent the significand of 0.15000000000000000832667268468867405317723751068115234375 in binary.
2021-02-12T20:37:20Z ecraven: Riastradh: my (philosophical) question is, why is the inexactness-bit in 0.0 ignored for zero? but relevant for +? just hysterical raisins? pragmatics?
2021-02-12T20:37:23Z amirouche: so MIT has a way to improve hardware float computation?
2021-02-12T20:38:45Z Riastradh: Written in hexadecimal, 0.1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625 is 1.999999999999ap-4, and its product with 1.5 = #x1.8p+0 is #x1.33333333333338p-3, which gets rounded to #x1.3333333333334p-3.  (You can actually count the bits in hexadecimal, which makes it a little less confusing than the decimal forms.)
2021-02-12T20:39:08Z Riastradh: ecraven: If it didn't ignore the bit, what would it return?
2021-02-12T20:39:27Z amirouche: my question is more like how do you come up with the non-rounded value?
2021-02-12T20:39:59Z Riastradh: amirouche: MIT Scheme just queries the hardware.  Essentially all hardware with floating-point units for the past three decades has maintained floating-point exceptions.
2021-02-12T20:40:15Z amirouche: :)
2021-02-12T20:40:18Z Riastradh: (You can get it in C with fetestexcept(FE_INEXACT) from <fenv.h>.)
2021-02-12T20:40:39Z Riastradh: amirouche: Sometimes I do integer arithmetic in MIT Scheme and copy & paste (hence the minor error above):
2021-02-12T20:41:19Z Riastradh: (* (inexact->exact 0.1) (expt 10 55))
2021-02-12T20:41:19Z Riastradh: ;Value: 1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625
2021-02-12T20:41:19Z Riastradh: (* (inexact->exact 1.5) (inexact->exact 0.1) (expt 10 56))
2021-02-12T20:41:19Z Riastradh: ;Value: 15000000000000000832667268468867405317723751068115234375
2021-02-12T20:42:04Z Riastradh: Sometimes I use Sollya, which doesn't have quite as nice a way to enter input as Edwin but provides a little more assistance in working with multiple floating-point formats.
2021-02-12T20:43:33Z jcowan: Riastradh: It would be plausible for (zero? 0.0) to signal a domain error.
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2021-02-12T20:43:47Z amirouche: (* 1.5 1/10) is never equal to (* 1.5 0.1)
2021-02-12T20:43:53Z Riastradh: ecraven: Note that 0.0 _does not_ represent something like the interval of all real numbers in (-2^{-1075}, 2^{-1074}).  It is just zero, with a bit in Scheme indicating it may have been tainted by error in past approximations.
2021-02-12T20:44:06Z Riastradh: amirouche: What do you mean?
2021-02-12T20:44:20Z Riastradh: (* 1.5 1/10)
2021-02-12T20:44:20Z Riastradh: ;Value: .15000000000000002
2021-02-12T20:44:20Z Riastradh: (* 1.5 0.1)
2021-02-12T20:44:20Z Riastradh: ;Value: .15000000000000002
2021-02-12T20:44:20Z Riastradh: (= (* 1.5 1/10) (* 1.5 0.1))
2021-02-12T20:44:21Z amirouche: 1/10 is not equal to 0.1
2021-02-12T20:44:22Z Riastradh: ;Value: #t
2021-02-12T20:44:25Z Riastradh: (eqv? (* 1.5 1/10) (* 1.5 0.1))
2021-02-12T20:44:27Z Riastradh: ;Value: #t
2021-02-12T20:44:29Z amirouche: ah ok nvm
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2021-02-12T20:44:53Z amirouche: ok so even if I write 0.1, it is interned as the "neareast possible floating value"
2021-02-12T20:45:13Z Riastradh: Now, it's true that the _number_ 0.1 = 1/10 is not what you get by writing `0.1' in a Scheme program -- you will usually get #x1.999999999999ap-4 = 0.100000000000000005551115123125782702118158340454102.
2021-02-12T20:45:54Z amirouche: hmm that is new to me
2021-02-12T20:45:55Z Riastradh: (If we had different typefaces here, I would use a roman face for the number 0.1 and typewriter face, and perhaps some other visual indicator, for the Scheme object which is written `0.1'.)
2021-02-12T20:46:42Z amirouche: yes, but my scheme show > 0.1
2021-02-12T20:46:45Z amirouche: 0.1
2021-02-12T20:47:10Z Riastradh: Correct: Scheme systems will generally print a short unambiguous representation.
2021-02-12T20:47:35Z Riastradh: It's unambiguous because although what you get from `0.1' is not the number 0.1, it is the floating-point number closest to 0.1, which is not itself a floating-point number.
2021-02-12T20:48:09Z amirouche: ok! so floating-point number is something of computers, a subset of rationals?
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2021-02-12T20:48:49Z amirouche: math rationals that is.
2021-02-12T20:49:02Z Riastradh: A (normal) floating-point number is a number of the form 2^e (1 + f/2^p), where e and f are integers in a restricted range, and p is the precision of the format.  There is no e and f such that 0.1 = 2^e (1 + f/2^p), because the left-hand side has a denominator with a factor of 5 and the right-hand side has only a power of 2 in the denominator.
2021-02-12T20:50:16Z Riastradh: (That's for binary floating-point; there's also decimal floating-point, in which of course 0.1 is representable, and hexadecimal floating-point on some very obscure very old machines.)
2021-02-12T20:51:19Z amirouche: (time to quote schopenhauer, IIUC, machine learning just juggle with various floating errors and approximation, it worse when I know more..)
2021-02-12T20:51:42Z amirouche: Riastradh: one last question please :)
2021-02-12T20:51:43Z Riastradh: (But usually I'm talking about binary floating-point unless I say otherwise, because most programming languages and most CPUs natively support binary floating-point.)
2021-02-12T20:51:59Z amirouche: regarding meteological simulation, do they have special floating point hardware?
2021-02-12T20:52:40Z amirouche: and in general, should or does AI ML rely on specialized float implementation.
2021-02-12T20:53:08Z Riastradh: jcowan: So yes, (zero? 0.0) could signal a domain error, and could require that you explicitly write (zero? (inexact->exact ...)) everywhere you want to test for zero...but then what for NaN or infinities, particularly in ordering comparisons?
2021-02-12T20:53:19Z amirouche: I ask the question, because i read weather forcast started as chaos system, highly sensible to pertubation errors.
2021-02-12T20:53:41Z jcowan: That's where the exact infinities and NaN come in.
2021-02-12T20:54:19Z Riastradh: amirouche: Most large CPUs use IEEE 754 binary64 by default for ordinary programs.  Most vectors units do IEEE 754 binary32; some newer ones use one of two different 16-bit floating-point for very high volumes of computation, particularly on GPUs and in current machine learning applications.
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2021-02-12T20:54:42Z amirouche astonished
2021-02-12T20:54:44Z jcowan: Alternatively, we heave over this whole system of inexact *numbers* and talk about inexact *operations*, leaving the internal representation up to the implementation.
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2021-02-12T20:55:39Z amirouche: IIUC AI ML requires less precision ?
2021-02-12T20:56:11Z Riastradh: On x86 machines (and m68k machines with FPU) there's also an 80-bit floating-point format, which is not much used these days except in 32-bit applications and when you explicitly ask for `long double' in C.
2021-02-12T20:56:40Z Riastradh: amirouche: Astonished why?
2021-02-12T20:56:58Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-02-12T20:57:02Z amirouche: anyway, I will not re-use that knowledge, I cam because I lost confidence. So, it is curiosity (I do not think I will need floating errors in my life)
2021-02-12T20:57:07Z Riastradh: amirouche: Often machine learning applications make do with much lower precision, and make up for it by doing enormously vast numbers of operations in parallel.
2021-02-12T20:57:10Z amirouche: Riastradh: because, AI ML runs the world
2021-02-12T20:57:30Z amirouche: and precision seems very necessary to avoid errors.
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2021-02-12T20:58:03Z Riastradh: The basic floating-point operations are guaranteed to create very small errors in the worst case -- in the real world, you will make unimaginably larger physical measurement errors.
2021-02-12T20:58:30Z Riastradh: What's much more important than worrying about the tiny perturbations of floating-point rounding is whether the functions you are trying to evaluate are sensible to evaluate with any error at all.
2021-02-12T20:58:48Z Riastradh: And that has nothing to do with floating-point.
2021-02-12T20:58:53Z amirouche: how to does one associate a epsilon (inexact-number + e) and inexact-number - e where the confidence is 99 inside that
2021-02-12T20:59:16Z amirouche: 99 or something.
2021-02-12T20:59:50Z amirouche: maybe same or another question, is it possible to compute the epsilon withing which the true number lies?
2021-02-12T21:00:36Z Riastradh: The `standard model' for floating-point arithmetic is that the _relative error_ (that is, error as a fraction of the true value) of a correctly rounded operation (which includes +, -, *, /, sqrt, and fma) is at most 1/2^p, where p is the precision of the format.
2021-02-12T21:01:28Z amirouche: re 'the functions you are trying to evaluate are sensible to evaluate with any error at all' so you have to take into accout what you just said during computation and results depending on the number of operations ?
2021-02-12T21:01:53Z Riastradh: In other words, if you have two floating-point numbers x and y, and you compute (FLOP x y) yielding fl(x OP y), where OP is * - * / and fl(whatever) is the floating-point number nearest to whatever;
2021-02-12T21:02:00Z amirouche: maybe I misunderstand, does the error increase while you do floating point operations ?
2021-02-12T21:02:14Z Riastradh: then you are guaranteed that fl(x OP y) = (x OP y)*(1 + e) where e <= 1/2^p.
2021-02-12T21:02:20Z Riastradh: |e| <= 1/2^p, excuse me
2021-02-12T21:02:32Z amirouche: for one op.
2021-02-12T21:02:36Z amirouche: but then it accumulates?
2021-02-12T21:02:39Z Riastradh: For one operation, yes.
2021-02-12T21:02:44Z Riastradh: Sometimes it accumulates.  Sometimes it shrinks.
2021-02-12T21:02:48Z amirouche: ah!
2021-02-12T21:02:49Z amirouche: oh!
2021-02-12T21:02:58Z Riastradh: It depends on the function you're computing.
2021-02-12T21:03:17Z amirouche: eventually, how are people doing floating computation confident of the score?
2021-02-12T21:03:20Z Riastradh: Let's say you are trying to compute the log of x, but owing to measurement error you actually have x*(1 + d) instead of x.
2021-02-12T21:03:22Z amirouche: the result sorry
2021-02-12T21:03:25Z Riastradh: And let's say x is very near 1.
2021-02-12T21:03:37Z Riastradh: Note that there is no floating-point here!  This is just a matter of the mathematical function.
2021-02-12T21:04:04Z Riastradh: So what you want is log(x), but what you can compute is log(x*(1 + d)) = log(x) + log(1 + d).
2021-02-12T21:04:25Z amirouche: d is small?
2021-02-12T21:04:30Z Riastradh: How bad is log(x*(1 + d)) as an approximation to log(x)?
2021-02-12T21:04:36Z Riastradh: Sure, d is small.
2021-02-12T21:04:57Z Riastradh: Well, log(x) + log(1 + d) = log(x)*[1 + log(1 + d)/log(x)].
2021-02-12T21:05:03Z Riastradh: Now here's a problem.
2021-02-12T21:05:14Z Riastradh: If x is close to 1, then log(x) is close to zero.
2021-02-12T21:05:28Z amirouche: yes
2021-02-12T21:05:31Z Riastradh: The relative error of log(x*(1 + d)) as an approximation to log(x) is log(1 + d)/log(x).
2021-02-12T21:05:47Z Riastradh: But log(x) is very nearly zero, so 1/log(x) can be arbitrarily large.
2021-02-12T21:06:02Z amirouche: hmm
2021-02-12T21:06:34Z Riastradh: Even if d is extremely small (but nonzero), log(1 + d)/log(x) can be an extremely bad error.
2021-02-12T21:06:35Z amirouche: another to phrase my question: do better precision in flo ops, enable advancement
2021-02-12T21:06:45Z Riastradh: Again: there is NO FLOATING-POINT in this example.
2021-02-12T21:06:57Z amirouche: hm ok
2021-02-12T21:07:06Z Riastradh: This is simply a fact of the log function: it can severely magnify errors in inputs near 1.
2021-02-12T21:07:12Z Riastradh: Errors can arise from many reasons:
2021-02-12T21:07:15Z Riastradh: - measurement error
2021-02-12T21:07:26Z Riastradh: - series truncation error (evaluate a polynomial approximation to a function by truncating its Taylor series or something)
2021-02-12T21:08:21Z Riastradh: - other kinds of function approximation error (e.g., use (e^x)/2 as an approximation to cosh(x))
2021-02-12T21:08:27Z Riastradh: - floating-point rounding error
2021-02-12T21:08:43Z amirouche: ok, but then how poeple are confident in spite of those errors?
2021-02-12T21:09:05Z Riastradh: In meteorological simulations, for example, measurement error is going to be a big one!
2021-02-12T21:09:23Z Riastradh: Numerical analysis is the field of choosing questions, and designing algorithms to answer them, that are sensible.
2021-02-12T21:09:58Z Riastradh: Let's say you want to compute the function logit(p) = log(p/(1 - p)), because you're doing some Bayesian log-odds computation and you need this as a subroutine to map probabilities to log-odds space.
2021-02-12T21:10:09Z s-video quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-02-12T21:10:33Z amirouche summon mayday
2021-02-12T21:10:33Z amirouche: I am sure they would be interested.
2021-02-12T21:10:58Z Riastradh: Now, just as log is ill-conditioned near 1, logit is ill-conditioned near 1/2.  But for any given input p, there is still a correct output logit(p), even if asking the question near that p isn't such a great idea.
2021-02-12T21:11:03Z Zipheir: amirouche: ManDay?
2021-02-12T21:11:14Z amirouche: Zipheir: yes
2021-02-12T21:11:32Z Riastradh: If you use the formula log(p/(1 - p)), then you'll likely give very bad answers for p near 1/2.
2021-02-12T21:11:45Z amirouche: Riastradh: let me guess you change the formula near p ?
2021-02-12T21:11:59Z amirouche: or near 1/2?
2021-02-12T21:11:59Z Riastradh: For example,
2021-02-12T21:12:02Z Riastradh: (let ((p 0.49999999999))
2021-02-12T21:12:03Z Riastradh:   (list (log (/ p (- 1 p)))
2021-02-12T21:12:03Z Riastradh:         (logit p)))
2021-02-12T21:12:03Z Riastradh: ;Value: (-4.000000331041484e-11 -4.000000330961484e-11)
2021-02-12T21:12:35Z Riastradh: About five digits are wrong; it's only good to about eleven digits.
2021-02-12T21:14:20Z Riastradh: The logit procedure in MIT Scheme rewrites the formula a different way: log(p/(1 - p)) = -log((1 - p)/p) = -log(1 + (1 - p)/p - 1) = -log(1 + (1 - p - p)/p) = -log(1 + (1 - 2p)/p).
2021-02-12T21:14:55Z Riastradh: Why is this formula better?  Well, although the function log(x) is ill-conditioned near 1, the function log(1 + y) is _well-conditioned_ near zero.
2021-02-12T21:15:37Z Riastradh: So while log(x) amplifies even small relative errors in x, log(1 + y) _doesn't_ amplify relative errors in y by much.
2021-02-12T21:15:52Z Riastradh: In fact, for positive y, log(1 + y) _dampens_ relative errors in y.
2021-02-12T21:16:16Z Riastradh: This is why the log1p procedure exists.
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2021-02-12T21:16:51Z Riastradh: (log x) computes an approximation to log(x); (log1p y) computes an approximation to log(1 + y).
2021-02-12T21:17:18Z Riastradh: Note that by the Taylor series, log(1 + y) = y + O(y^2).  So when y is below around 1/2^p, you can basically just set log(1 + y) ~ y.
2021-02-12T21:17:52Z amirouche: the speed the computation?
2021-02-12T21:18:07Z Riastradh: Sure.
2021-02-12T21:18:27Z amirouche: how is this field called? numerical analysis?
2021-02-12T21:18:34Z Riastradh: So, if we evaluated (log (/ p (- 1 p))), it's quite likely that both (- 1 p) and (/ p (- 1 p)) would incur rounding errors -- small rounding errors!  But errors nevertheless.
2021-02-12T21:18:51Z Riastradh: (and division and multiplication never amplify errors by much)
2021-02-12T21:19:19Z Riastradh: But log might take that tiny error, around 1/10^16, and return a result with a _much larger_ error.
2021-02-12T21:19:37Z Riastradh: I added a few more nines to the example and the error went up to 2/10^4:
2021-02-12T21:19:40Z Riastradh: (let ((p 0.4999999999999))
2021-02-12T21:19:41Z Riastradh:   (/ (- (log (/ p (- 1 p)))
2021-02-12T21:19:41Z Riastradh:         (logit p))
2021-02-12T21:19:41Z Riastradh:      (logit p)))
2021-02-12T21:19:43Z Riastradh: ;Value: -2.776235422765505e-4
2021-02-12T21:20:15Z Riastradh: That is, it's wrong by more than one part in ten thousand of the true value, when we can do so much better than that -- less than one part in a quadrillion of the true value.
2021-02-12T21:20:44Z Riastradh: If we evaluate (- (log1p (/ (- 1 (* 2 p)) p))) instead, four things happen:
2021-02-12T21:21:04Z Riastradh: 1. 2*p is always evaluated exactly in floating-point unless it overflows (but p is restricted to [0,1] here, so that won't happen)
2021-02-12T21:21:42Z Riastradh: 2. As long as we use this formula only for, say, (1/4, 3/4), and use log(p/(1 - p)) for [0, 1/4) and (3/4, 1], 1 - 2*p is _also_ evaluated exactly in floating-point by the Sterbenz lemma.
2021-02-12T21:21:51Z Riastradh: So so far there's zero rounding errors!
2021-02-12T21:22:20Z Riastradh: 3. The division (/ (- 1 (* 2 p)) p) may commit a rounding error, but it's only off by 1/2^53 parts of the true value.
2021-02-12T21:23:16Z Riastradh: 4. The log1p _function_ doesn't make that error much worse.  The Scheme log1p _procedure_, which returns an approximation to the function, might commit another rounding error, but the net error so far is no more than 3/2^53 at this point.
2021-02-12T21:23:52Z Riastradh: Oh, and one more: negation is always computed exactly.
2021-02-12T21:25:29Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme uses roughly this approach.
2021-02-12T21:26:52Z Riastradh: The cutoff points for the two formulas are a little different -- it's not 1/2 and 3/4 but e^{-1}/(1 + e^{-1}) and 1/(1 + e^{-1}) -- to keep the error bounds easier to prove.
2021-02-12T21:27:27Z Riastradh: I can prove with pencil and paper that the error of MIT Scheme's logit procedure is no more than 10/2^53; I conjecture that it's less than 3/2^53, and with tools like Gappa I might be able to prove a better bound.  But the details of the proof aren't quite so important as just noticing when you're about to phrase a question in terms of a function that is ill-conditioned in the domain of interest.
2021-02-12T21:28:07Z Riastradh: And that -- noticing when you're baout to phrase a question in terms of a function that is ill-conditioned in the domain of interest -- has nothing to do with floating-point!
2021-02-12T21:28:50Z amirouche: it is the operator?
2021-02-12T21:28:54Z Riastradh: ?
2021-02-12T21:28:56Z amirouche: procedure?
2021-02-12T21:29:32Z amirouche: the application of the procedure leads to an error, not the floating-point ?
2021-02-12T21:29:45Z amirouche: I do no understand your last message
2021-02-12T21:30:04Z Riastradh: Not _procedure_, but _function_ -- the point is that what log does to errors in inputs near 1 is an inherent property of the mathematical log function, irrespective of how you compute or approximate it.
2021-02-12T21:30:34Z amirouche: yes function in the math sens, it is a math property
2021-02-12T21:31:04Z Riastradh: Same thing with subtracting approximations to nearby points (`catastrophic cancellation'), or computing the sin of a point near a nonzero even multiple of 2pi.
2021-02-12T21:31:20Z amirouche: I think my father was doing numerical analysis before bailing out.
2021-02-12T21:32:16Z Riastradh: For a cute little example of amplifying or dampening errors...
2021-02-12T21:32:30Z Riastradh: (sqrt (square 1.23456789))
2021-02-12T21:32:30Z Riastradh: ;Value: 1.23456789
2021-02-12T21:32:30Z Riastradh: (square (sqrt 1.23456789))
2021-02-12T21:32:30Z Riastradh: ;Value: 1.2345678899999997
2021-02-12T21:33:36Z Riastradh: Why does this happen?  Each operation commits at most one floating-point rounding error, so they should be comparable, right?
2021-02-12T21:34:09Z Riastradh: But square _amplifies_ errors, and sqrt _dampens_ them.
2021-02-12T21:34:10Z amirouche: maybe :D
2021-02-12T21:34:17Z amirouche: hmm..
2021-02-12T21:34:31Z Riastradh: So if you square first, giving x^2 * (1 + e), and then take the square root, you get sqrt(x^2 * (1 + e))*(1 + d) = x * sqrt(1 + e) * (1 + d).
2021-02-12T21:35:05Z Riastradh: In contrast, if you take the square root first, giving sqrt(x) * (1 + e), and then square, you get (sqrt(x) * (1 + e))^2 * (1 + d) = x * (1 + e)^2 * (1 + d).
2021-02-12T21:35:43Z Riastradh: So (sqrt (square ...)) has sqrt(1 + e) whereas (square (sqrt ...)) has (1 + e)^2.
2021-02-12T21:36:09Z Riastradh: I believe it turns out that for all binary32 floating-point numbers, (sqrt (square x)) is exactly computed as the identity (but obviously not for (square (sqrt x))).
2021-02-12T21:36:40Z Riastradh: So the sqrt _function_ completely counteracts the rounding error committed by square.
2021-02-12T21:36:54Z Riastradh: (and any rounding additionally committed by the sqrt _procedure_ doesn't affect the outcome)
2021-02-12T21:37:30Z Riastradh: (or rather, doesn't make it worse)
2021-02-12T21:39:21Z Riastradh: To bring this back where it started: if a floating-point operation incurs a rounding error, then the machine raises the inexact-result exception.  No rounding errors => no inexact-result.  This is what (flo:test-exceptions (flo:exception:inexact-result)) queries in MIT Scheme.
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2021-02-12T21:41:42Z amirouche: nice explanation / talk.
2021-02-12T21:42:15Z Riastradh: jcowan: So, yes, you could switch everything over to a model of `entire computations' rather than `bit signifying inexactness contagion'...by, for instance, using a static type for floating-point arithmetic that is separate from a static type for exact rational arithmetic.
2021-02-12T21:42:46Z Riastradh: In OCaml, you have to write +. -. *. /. when you want floating-point arithmetic; you can't accidentally get it when you thought you were going to get integer or ratio arithmetic.
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2021-02-12T21:48:43Z jcowan: And I consider this to be a Good Thing, though I would extend it further to allow + to add inexact numbers by treating them as exact:  i.e. this + is (scheme:+ (exact x) (exact y))
2021-02-12T21:49:51Z jcowan: and similarly for +., where the case is more compelling
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2021-02-13T08:54:37Z rudybot: la la la
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2021-02-13T08:58:18Z amirouche: lo lo lo
2021-02-13T08:58:33Z amirouche: time for some scheme hacking ha ha
2021-02-13T08:58:47Z amirouche: it is been a long time I did not use parentheses properly.
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2021-02-13T10:24:20Z amirouche: I think I figured the API of okvslite-query, see https://hyper.dev/8b5060c01b8e4918abb6b4cfa5159b88.html
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2021-02-13T10:36:43Z wasamasa: I have my doubts pack/unpack are anywhere near the hot path
2021-02-13T10:36:57Z wasamasa: given the contortions I have to do to query data, that is the bigger issue
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2021-02-13T11:27:24Z amirouche: I think pack unpack is in a hot path, since you need to use them any time the code reads or writes something.
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2021-02-13T11:35:16Z wasamasa: have you verified that though?
2021-02-13T11:41:01Z amirouche: verified that I read and write in the database ?
2021-02-13T11:41:18Z amirouche: maybe it is not a significant speed up
2021-02-13T11:41:26Z amirouche: but the code is simpler and more powerful.
2021-02-13T11:41:51Z wasamasa: trur
2021-02-13T11:41:55Z wasamasa: *true
2021-02-13T11:42:19Z wasamasa: I'm looking forward to the adjusted nstore code adapted to that change :>
2021-02-13T11:42:20Z amirouche: what I call hot path, is that the program will run through that path many times, say 1ms speed which would be a lot for one less car and one less apply
2021-02-13T11:42:36Z amirouche: 1ms times 10^6 is a lot
2021-02-13T11:42:56Z amirouche: I will look into it
2021-02-13T11:43:02Z wasamasa: compared to query operations though which may need to traverse the result set several times...
2021-02-13T11:43:45Z amirouche: true, you only pack once per okvs-range but unpack many times as part of the generator.
2021-02-13T11:44:50Z wasamasa: YOPO
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2021-02-13T12:50:19Z amirouche: luckily i will have fiber back monday that is coming :|
2021-02-13T12:52:32Z amirouche: wasamasa: I think I have a plan that please me, I will update okvs and nstore to okvs2 and nstore2 (It will be possible to retrofit to srfi-167 srfi-168), possibly add other stuff (!) but I need a name for the project :)
2021-02-13T12:52:40Z amirouche: I think about scheme-dubious
2021-02-13T12:53:47Z amirouche: because there is less 'a' and there 'd' and 'b' in the same order as database.
2021-02-13T12:54:03Z amirouche: Or better dutubitous which is mix of database and dubuious
2021-02-13T12:54:13Z wasamasa: hm
2021-02-13T12:54:30Z wasamasa: someone pointed out to me that you're very good at this scheming thing, in the usual sense of the world
2021-02-13T12:55:20Z amirouche: I take that as compliment :)
2021-02-13T12:56:10Z amirouche: also dutubitous make google go empty :D
2021-02-13T12:56:17Z amirouche: ahah !
2021-02-13T12:56:31Z amirouche: I have broken google => google is clueless.
2021-02-13T12:57:15Z wasamasa: I wouldn't go too clever on it, otherwise nobody can remember the names if they aren't at least tangentially related
2021-02-13T12:58:53Z amirouche: oh I found some strange result: dutubusu like database but with u instead of a
2021-02-13T13:00:26Z wasamasa: durable tuple bucket subspace
2021-02-13T13:01:02Z wasamasa: would work for an implementation, for a standard though, hm
2021-02-13T13:09:35Z amirouche: dutubusu has an awesome fictionional etymology 'dutu' is some kind of 'fruit' or 'tree' in turkish https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dut#Noun_4 and butu is a verb suffix (?) that means 'kiss' in swahili (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/busu#Verb), also google as 4 result in total for the whole thing
2021-02-13T13:10:00Z amirouche: the fruit's kiss :)
2021-02-13T13:33:06Z lockywolf: Why do we even have "symbols" in Scheme?
2021-02-13T13:33:39Z lockywolf: (lookup-variable-value 'symbol) could just as easily have been done with (lookup-variable-value "symbol")
2021-02-13T13:34:31Z lockywolf: It would have been in O(6) instead of O(1), but that doesn't affect expressive power.
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2021-02-13T13:45:16Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf: You mean, ("lookup-variable-value" "symbol")?
2021-02-13T13:45:55Z iv4nshm4k0v: FWIW, Tcl builds its syntax around strings and lists of strings; so, e. g., puts hello is a list of operator string "puts" and operand string "hello".  Don't think that'd really work for a Lisp-like language; and in all honesty, it doesn't exactly work with syntax highlighting.
2021-02-13T13:49:21Z lockywolf: The eval-apply loop is hidden from the user in Scheme, so the lookup-variable-value can be anything.
2021-02-13T13:50:02Z lockywolf: can be a machine primitive
2021-02-13T13:51:11Z lockywolf: tcl is a crazy piece of sh*t
2021-02-13T13:51:20Z lockywolf: quite awesome, in fact
2021-02-13T13:52:40Z lockywolf: I wonder why it is not used instead of bash as a default shell in Linux
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2021-02-13T14:06:13Z wasamasa: it might just work
2021-02-13T14:06:32Z wasamasa: most people I know who use tcl do so begrudgingly because some FPGA vendor happened to write their entire toolchain in it
2021-02-13T14:08:03Z pinoaffe: lockywolf: I mean, I think it's quite useful to distinguish between symbols and strings, because string comparison is O(n) while symbol comparison is approximately O(1), and because even without the performance benefits it makes sense to me to distinguish between symbols and strings based on their intended use
2021-02-13T14:10:45Z mangol: performance-wise, symbols and immutable strings could probably be unified into one concept. eq? would still work for comparing them in O(1) time.
2021-02-13T14:11:23Z lockywolf: I'm not questioning the practicality of symbols.
2021-02-13T14:11:26Z mangol: but as pinoaffe says, the distinction between symbols and strings is useful for distinguishing between "user level" and "language level" concepts.
2021-02-13T14:11:55Z mangol: (description "this is some stuff") shows that `description` is part of some DSL whereas `"this is some stuff"` is user input
2021-02-13T14:12:34Z lockywolf: (description this\ is\ some\ stuff)
2021-02-13T14:12:37Z mangol: since Scheme and Lisp are very DSL-happy, the distinction is probably more useful to us than in various other languages
2021-02-13T14:13:13Z mangol: in addition to TCL, Unix shell (sh, bash) also mixes strings and symbols
2021-02-13T14:13:33Z lockywolf: Scheme programmers do not use a lot of symbols directly, as far as I understand.
2021-02-13T14:13:38Z wasamasa: there's a lua optimization for interning short strings
2021-02-13T14:13:57Z lockywolf: It's not that you need (add-hook whatever-mode-hook 'symbol)
2021-02-13T14:14:20Z wasamasa: scheme is indeed less symbol-oriented than CL/elisp/picolisp
2021-02-13T14:14:24Z wasamasa: but they're still there
2021-02-13T14:14:34Z lockywolf: Although now you can do (add-hook whatever-mode-hook (lambda () (symbol)))
2021-02-13T14:14:51Z mangol: i use symbols in scheme all the time, usually for DSL- or enum-like things
2021-02-13T14:14:52Z wasamasa: you're writing that code using symbols and parentheses, lol
2021-02-13T14:15:04Z wasamasa: it is useful to be able to refer to identifiers
2021-02-13T14:15:07Z lockywolf: those are just unicode sequences
2021-02-13T14:15:22Z wasamasa: sure, we call them symbols
2021-02-13T14:15:40Z mangol: this is veering in the direction of a "you only need one datatype" discussion :)
2021-02-13T14:15:47Z pinoaffe: add-hook, whatever-mode-hook, lambda and symbol are all symbols from the scheme pov
2021-02-13T14:15:58Z mangol: just make everything a bitvector
2021-02-13T14:16:11Z pinoaffe: mangol: no, let's use lambda encodings for everything :)
2021-02-13T14:16:21Z lockywolf: Church-encoding
2021-02-13T14:16:30Z mangol: right. peano arithmetic is underappreciated by the working programmer :)
2021-02-13T14:16:36Z pinoaffe: yeah that's one type of lambda encoding
2021-02-13T14:17:23Z lockywolf: nah, I'm just trying to understand what Wittgenstein meant in Tractatus 3.32
2021-02-13T14:17:37Z lockywolf: sorry, the original question is not really Scheme-relates
2021-02-13T14:17:39Z pinoaffe: I'm still planning on writing an IEEE754 implementation using lambda encoding
2021-02-13T14:17:39Z lockywolf: d
2021-02-13T14:18:07Z lockywolf: *** 3.32 A sign is what can be perceived of a symbol.
2021-02-13T14:18:12Z wasamasa: lol
2021-02-13T14:18:50Z pinoaffe: on the topic of tractatus: I'm seriously considering submitting a tractatus-related paper to sigbovik this year
2021-02-13T14:19:30Z pinoaffe: lockywolf: isn't 3.32 just a definition?
2021-02-13T14:19:51Z lockywolf: a definition of what?
2021-02-13T14:20:01Z pinoaffe: "Zeichen"
2021-02-13T14:20:51Z pinoaffe: wait, he uses that before 3.2, so that wouldn't make sense
2021-02-13T14:20:54Z mangol: "Representing and working with almost none of the integers the suckless way" https://libs.suckless.org/libzahl/libzahl-paper-1.pdf
2021-02-13T14:21:20Z mangol: [spoiler, it's a bignum library]
2021-02-13T14:21:21Z lockywolf: after?
2021-02-13T14:22:35Z lockywolf: no, I think what he means is that as long as your things can be fed into (eq? ), you can use them as variables
2021-02-13T14:22:40Z wasamasa: I see, you've shopped for the next challenge after finishing SICP
2021-02-13T14:24:32Z lockywolf: https://gitlab.com/Lockywolf/linuxbugs-lwf/-/blob/master/notes/2020-11-18_Reading-Tractatuc-Logico-Philosophicus-by-Ludwig-Wittgenstein/2020-11-18_Tractatus-Logico-Philosophicus-by-Ludwig-Wittgenstein-Reading-Notes.org
2021-02-13T14:24:33Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/qcvHGPWO6O
2021-02-13T14:25:04Z lockywolf: Just tried to add some notes on the margins, where I didn't understand what he actually meant.
2021-02-13T14:28:40Z lockywolf: I can imagine a language, in which variable resolution at the same time makes this variable undefined.
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2021-02-13T14:29:30Z pinoaffe: there's a language that does something along those line, in order to provide certain guarantees / proofs by default, forgot what it's called tho
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2021-02-13T14:30:38Z lockywolf: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (princ (+ a b)) (princ a) (princ b)) => 3 #undef #undef
2021-02-13T14:31:16Z mangol: is concurrency like quantum mechanics in that you need to observe the program to find out what path it takes?
2021-02-13T14:31:27Z lockywolf: but it has to be along the lines of lisp-2, or something, otherwise you would get very tired of defining (princ) all the time
2021-02-13T14:33:07Z pinoaffe: lockywolf: where do you get the idea that wittgenstein stated that there is no IO?
2021-02-13T14:33:22Z lockywolf: I am not sure he meant that.
2021-02-13T14:33:37Z pinoaffe: okay, I think he did not mean that
2021-02-13T14:34:47Z lockywolf: I am thinking that this is the case, because he never speaks about creation of new "things", and I/O is essentially this creation.
2021-02-13T14:35:11Z lockywolf: In most of mathematics you do not have runtime I/O.
2021-02-13T14:35:46Z lockywolf: Or mutation.
2021-02-13T14:36:56Z lockywolf: It kinda makes sense, because his theory is all about inferring true propositions from the state of affairs, but if your state of affairs changes while the program runs, you can't really say anything any more.
2021-02-13T14:37:38Z lockywolf: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (display (+ a b))) => 10, because both a and b changed
2021-02-13T14:38:50Z mangol: mutation can always be emulated using immutable data by making copies of as many parts of the world as you need to reflect changes
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2021-02-13T14:39:21Z mangol: since math deals with an entirely abstract world, i'm not sure it makes sense to talk about references in the sense of `eq?`
2021-02-13T14:39:43Z mangol: you have infinite memory and an infinitely fast computer so mathematicians just make a new world whenever they feel like it
2021-02-13T14:40:15Z lockywolf: and I/O can be almost always be represented as the function argument
2021-02-13T14:40:15Z mangol: if they need to compare successive world-states, just add a t variable for time, etc.
2021-02-13T14:40:26Z pinoaffe: lockywolf: as far as I know, there's no concept of runtime in Wittgensteins reasoning, he just argues about facts regardless of whether one could compute any of these facts
2021-02-13T14:40:37Z pinoaffe: he's not a constructivist, after all
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2021-02-13T14:41:12Z lockywolf: but that's not the "true" IO or "true" mutation
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2021-02-13T14:41:46Z mangol: the "true I/O" equivalent in philosophy would probably be something like the concept of emergence
2021-02-13T14:41:54Z mangol: or the supernatural
2021-02-13T14:42:06Z mangol: or mind/body distinction
2021-02-13T14:42:17Z lockywolf: for most cases, there is no need for "true" IO
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2021-02-13T14:42:56Z mangol: true I/O is needed when you take one world as being "the real world". that's the world that is mutated.
2021-02-13T14:43:12Z lockywolf: yeah, godly interventions
2021-02-13T14:43:25Z mangol: if you don't care about the distinction between the real world and an imaginary world, as mathematicians and logicians don't, I/O is unnecessary
2021-02-13T14:43:31Z lockywolf: somebody debugging this world
2021-02-13T14:43:47Z mangol: and simulating I/O using math and logic would not be real I/O, but a mockup of real I/O
2021-02-13T14:45:35Z lockywolf: mutation should be deemed a crime
2021-02-13T14:49:25Z mangol: if you pinch yourself and it hurts, is it real I/O? :p
2021-02-13T14:50:04Z mangol: if a tree falls in the forest and no-one observes, did real I/O happen?
2021-02-13T14:50:33Z mangol: is prayer real I/O?
2021-02-13T14:51:10Z mangol: does quantum observation cause real I/O to happen?
2021-02-13T14:51:53Z mangol: or are you a solipsist, and your I/O is the only real I/O? other people just look like they have I/O as well.
2021-02-13T14:53:23Z lockywolf: Maybe we should have write-time typing.
2021-02-13T14:53:39Z lockywolf: Dynamic typing reports errors when types do not match in runtime.
2021-02-13T14:54:03Z lockywolf: Static typing reports errors when types do not match in compile-time.
2021-02-13T14:54:43Z lockywolf: Write-time typing does not let you input characters that are disobeying the type system already defined.
2021-02-13T14:55:31Z pinoaffe: lockywolf: the more I read your comments on tractatus the more I find myself disagreeing :)
2021-02-13T14:55:45Z lockywolf: The IDE wouldn't let you write extern "C" { int a; a = 1.0; };
2021-02-13T14:56:00Z lockywolf: pinoaffe, that's good!
2021-02-13T14:56:19Z lockywolf: I haven't finished yet.
2021-02-13T14:56:48Z mdhughes: A sufficiently well-written language wouldn't allow invalid inputs, or that don't terminate.
2021-02-13T14:56:49Z lockywolf: But in any case, I find it a very nice format of writing books.
2021-02-13T14:56:53Z mangol: you have another very interesting project in matching the tractatus with programming languages for sure
2021-02-13T14:57:29Z mangol: the write-time typing is basically a combination of static typing and incremental compilation
2021-02-13T14:57:58Z mangol: the IDE has a background process to compile code using a traditional C compiler after every keywroke
2021-02-13T14:58:01Z mdhughes: Actually, I guess that's Scratch and such. Sure, they're all but unusable for complex thought, but you can't write invalid programs.
2021-02-13T14:58:34Z mdhughes: And the Human language equivalent is NewSpeak.
2021-02-13T14:59:04Z lockywolf: Interestingly, it should also block the backspace button.
2021-02-13T14:59:31Z mangol: like one of those games where you can't run backwards
2021-02-13T14:59:57Z mangol: i once tried using the unix `cat` program as my text editor for a day. it was fun
2021-02-13T15:00:08Z mdhughes: Nah, it would have to be perfectly reversible.
2021-02-13T15:00:12Z wasamasa: mdhughes: it's almost usable when combined with rlwrap
2021-02-13T15:00:14Z wasamasa: err
2021-02-13T15:00:16Z wasamasa: mangol: ^
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2021-02-13T15:00:18Z mangol: have to restart writing the program from scratch every time you make a mistake
2021-02-13T15:00:19Z lockywolf: well, it would let you delete the character you have input, because presumably this character had been vali
2021-02-13T15:00:58Z mdhughes: There's nothing wrong with coding in cat, as long as you know what you're going to do (and wrote it out on paper) and you check the line before hitting enter.
2021-02-13T15:01:26Z mdhughes: But happily we have ed, which allows you to write code interactively.
2021-02-13T15:01:37Z mangol: ed is the standard editor.
2021-02-13T15:01:42Z wasamasa: cat + rlwrap resembles the python repl, come to think of it
2021-02-13T15:01:56Z mdhughes: https://mdhughes.tech/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/ed-cheat.pdf
2021-02-13T15:04:01Z lockywolf: I wish tech book writers were reading the Tractatus before starting work.
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2021-02-13T15:04:31Z lockywolf: Well, technical regulations and patents are written this way, with each thought separately numbered.
2021-02-13T15:05:10Z mdhughes: Also wargames.
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2021-02-13T15:05:51Z lockywolf: And I vaguely remember something like that in high school books on math.
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2021-02-13T15:06:54Z lockywolf: But I think many more books would have benefited from a more structured way of explanation.
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2021-02-13T15:09:27Z lockywolf: People seem to have several obarrays.
2021-02-13T15:10:25Z lockywolf: The correct obarray is chosen if all variables of a clause are resolvable from this obarray.
2021-02-13T15:10:55Z lockywolf: If all variables are resolvable from two obarrays, it's either a tautology, or a pun.
2021-02-13T15:12:43Z lockywolf: Not "resolvable". Just "not undefined in".
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2021-02-13T15:28:34Z mangol: "blue objects are blue" ought to be a tautology even with only one obarray, if i understood your idea correctly
2021-02-13T15:29:18Z mangol: isn't it the point of a pun that the variables look like they refer to the same (or almost the same) thing, but upon closer examination actually refer to different ones?
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2021-02-13T15:29:47Z mangol: are you taking a sentence literally and using obarrays to talk about the literal words instead of the concepts behind those words?
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2021-02-13T15:31:18Z mangol: a reasonable approximation of concepts may be that they try to capture some aspect of the real world, and succeed to varying degrees. like clustering in machine learning.
2021-02-13T15:34:12Z mdhughes: https://mdhughes.tech/2017/07/19/data-and-reality-william-kent/
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2021-02-13T15:35:24Z mdhughes: Blue is one of the earliest examples Bill Kent uses, where French databases store it as bleu, English as blue, (and 20 years after the book was written, presumably #0000ff), so is it the same value or not?
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2021-02-13T15:36:59Z mangol: english blue and french blue are probably not exactly the same concept. strictly speaking, the meaning of the word even varies from person to person and moment to moment.
2021-02-13T15:38:21Z amirouche: blue in french or blue?
2021-02-13T15:38:26Z amirouche: erf!
2021-02-13T15:38:30Z amirouche: blue or bleu ?
2021-02-13T15:38:50Z mangol: both. all words have slightly different meanings.
2021-02-13T15:39:05Z mangol: if we say two words are the same word, what we really mean is that we believe the difference to be so slight that we can't be bothered to look into it
2021-02-13T15:39:11Z amirouche: blue is not a french word AFAIK
2021-02-13T15:39:27Z mdhughes: Right, therefore databases are impossible and nothing can be known.
2021-02-13T15:39:29Z mangol: well, it's a loan word in all languages that have come in contact with english :)
2021-02-13T15:39:30Z amirouche: we call those words "fake friends"
2021-02-13T15:39:39Z mangol: :)
2021-02-13T15:39:39Z amirouche: sometime it is very different.
2021-02-13T15:39:44Z mdhughes: OR… we have some way of canonicalizing terms.
2021-02-13T15:40:02Z amirouche: like "cool" in french, means something "neat"
2021-02-13T15:40:10Z amirouche: or "fine"
2021-02-13T15:40:33Z amirouche: unlike cooldown which means I think "become calm"
2021-02-13T15:40:52Z mdhughes: "Middle English: from Old French bleu, ultimately of Germanic origin and related to Old English blǣwen ‘blue’ and Old Norse blár ‘dark blue’ (see also blaeberry)."
2021-02-13T15:41:01Z mdhughes: So other way around.
2021-02-13T15:41:24Z lockywolf: Wittgenstein has as an example "green is green".
2021-02-13T15:41:25Z amirouche: oh it came from old english through german to french, to end up in modern english?
2021-02-13T15:42:03Z mangol: the meaning of "green is green" can be altered greatly by intonation and cultural context. is that why he uses it as an example?
2021-02-13T15:42:22Z lockywolf: because the first green is actually Mr Green
2021-02-13T15:42:23Z amirouche: green in my parent language means both blue and english green.
2021-02-13T15:42:32Z amirouche: i mean green and blue is the same word.
2021-02-13T15:42:34Z lockywolf: and the second green means the colour
2021-02-13T15:42:43Z Riastradh: lockywolf: symbols predated strings
2021-02-13T15:42:50Z mangol: and people can tell lies. what's the meaning of a lie, the meaning intended by the liar or the meaning intended for the recipient of the lie to believe?
2021-02-13T15:43:12Z mangol: amirouche: that's a great example of the ambiguity of concepts
2021-02-13T15:43:31Z mdhughes: FORTRAN had strings before LISP had symbols…
2021-02-13T15:43:56Z mdhughes: (constant strings only, IIRC FORTRAN 1?)
2021-02-13T15:43:57Z mangol: next you'll be telling kids to get off your lawn :)
2021-02-13T15:44:14Z Riastradh: `symbols predated strings in Lisp'
2021-02-13T15:44:16Z lockywolf: I think that "germanic origin" means that it is from that part of French that is Frankish, not the one which is Gaelic or Latin.
2021-02-13T15:44:31Z amirouche: mangol: the translated explanation is : "it is 'blue-and-green-word' like the see" indeed depending on how you look at the see it may appear green or blue.
2021-02-13T15:44:48Z amirouche: s/see/sea/
2021-02-13T15:44:50Z mangol: interesting
2021-02-13T15:45:03Z lockywolf: or white
2021-02-13T15:45:21Z amirouche: yeah, also the funny thing, is most of them never saw the sea x)
2021-02-13T15:45:30Z Zipheir: Wow.  Morning, all.
2021-02-13T15:45:53Z lockywolf: more like "midnight" :)
2021-02-13T15:45:55Z amirouche: that is a joke, but they are not sea people for sure.
2021-02-13T15:46:20Z amirouche: they live in the moutains.
2021-02-13T15:46:26Z mangol: :D
2021-02-13T15:46:30Z lockywolf: Why was the case sensitivity written as #!fold-case?
2021-02-13T15:46:57Z lockywolf: It seems that it could have been done with "reader application" https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-10/srfi-10.html
2021-02-13T15:47:13Z lockywolf: #,(turn-on-case-folding)
2021-02-13T15:47:20Z lockywolf: #,(turn-on-r6rs)
2021-02-13T15:47:51Z Zipheir: That syntax probably predates SRFI 10 by a long time.
2021-02-13T15:47:56Z mangol: AFAIK #, is not part of any RnRS. Common Lisp has a standard way to evaluate in the reader. it's a mixed blessing
2021-02-13T15:48:38Z mangol: most of the problems around the meaning of language seem to disappear if we take everything to be subjective, and take words to be something that imperfect people invent because they are useful rather than something intrinsically representing reality or ideas.
2021-02-13T15:49:07Z lockywolf: isn't r6rs newer than srfi-10?
2021-02-13T15:49:48Z lockywolf: yeah, that's what Wittgenstein is writing about in "Philosophical Investigations"
2021-02-13T15:50:46Z Zipheir: Searle's "speech acts" are also an interesting way to look at the problem.
2021-02-13T15:50:47Z lockywolf: That's why I am only reading the Tractatus in the context of programming languages. In PL things "have to" be well-defined.
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2021-02-13T15:50:52Z amirouche: mangol: I have a newbie at work, from legal, the first things she told me is "there is lots of synonyms in computing" compared to legal, where every word apprantly has a definitive sens.
2021-02-13T15:50:58Z Zipheir: lockywolf: Interesting project!
2021-02-13T15:52:06Z lockywolf: amirouche, the best of those is "Leave to Remain"
2021-02-13T15:52:20Z amirouche: lockywolf: how so?
2021-02-13T15:52:34Z amirouche: the newbie comes from a legal background.
2021-02-13T15:52:37Z lockywolf: well, it blew my mind that you have to leave to remain
2021-02-13T15:53:01Z lockywolf: well, it blew my mind that you have to leave in order to remain
2021-02-13T15:53:09Z amirouche: what does it mean? I read "leave the remain", I understand "leave some money change"
2021-02-13T15:53:15Z lockywolf: nope
2021-02-13T15:53:23Z lockywolf: it means "residence permit"
2021-02-13T15:53:28Z Zipheir: Aha.
2021-02-13T15:53:30Z lockywolf: "leave" is "permission"
2021-02-13T15:53:31Z amirouche: ><
2021-02-13T15:53:32Z Riastradh: i'mma hire Sam Wittgenspade as a PI
2021-02-13T15:53:34Z mangol: :D
2021-02-13T15:54:21Z mangol: what is the etymology of leave?
2021-02-13T15:54:26Z lockywolf: https://workpermit.com/news/uk-changes-limited-ltr-applications-april-20040317
2021-02-13T15:54:30Z amirouche: they are funny historical stuff in french word, similar to how 'bad' is used to say evil, but has roots in unrelated stuff. 'merci' to say thanks in french, you used to be said like "Thanks, do not kill me"
2021-02-13T15:55:11Z Zipheir: I recall putting down the Philosophical Investigations at the point at which W2 hand-waves the idea that we can even talk about the meanings of words.  "Clearly, language here is second-order without being really second-order", or some such.  At that point, he seemed to have more or less obviated the point of writing the book.
2021-02-13T15:55:20Z amirouche: or "Thanks do me no harm" or something.
2021-02-13T15:55:48Z lockywolf: From Middle English leven, from Old English līefan (“to allow, grant, concede; believe, trust, confide in”), from Proto-Germanic *laubijaną (“to allow, praise”), from Proto-Indo-European *lewbʰ- (“to love, hold dear”). Cognate with German lauben (“to allow, believe”), Icelandic leyfa (“to allow”).
2021-02-13T15:56:12Z amirouche: leave ~ love... unrelated.
2021-02-13T15:56:27Z mangol: so "leave" is originally something like "let"
2021-02-13T15:56:33Z mangol: amirouche: also true :)
2021-02-13T15:56:35Z amirouche: yeah, seems like that.
2021-02-13T15:56:49Z mangol: (import (rename (scheme base) (let leave)))
2021-02-13T15:56:58Z lockywolf: (leave ((it be)) (exit))
2021-02-13T15:57:10Z amirouche: ahah
2021-02-13T15:58:20Z amirouche: if you like youtube and like linguistic you can watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_48EyFXopk
2021-02-13T15:58:57Z amirouche: it is tiktok show by Loic Suberville
2021-02-13T15:59:20Z mdhughes: (define do be) (define be do) (do be do be do)
2021-02-13T15:59:31Z mangol: :D
2021-02-13T15:59:44Z mangol: be and do should be coroutines
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2021-02-13T16:00:11Z amirouche: where I discovered there is two example in french similar to "buffalo buffalo buffalo..." except the spelling of each word is different but the sound is the same (or almost the same0
2021-02-13T16:01:43Z mangol: Zipheir: the "words have no meaning" problem is solved by "words have infinitely many meanings". to the extent that words refer to reality, everyone builds their own model of reality in their mind and uses words to talk about that model.
2021-02-13T16:02:34Z amirouche: it seems very complicated to learn to understand language...
2021-02-13T16:03:20Z mdhughes: I just assign words random weights in a neural network until a result comes out that receives a positive score from the score function.
2021-02-13T16:03:22Z amirouche: I mean, no wonder that there NP-Complete and AI-Complete and AI-Complete is defined sometime in terms of ability to read and speak
2021-02-13T16:04:11Z amirouche: mdhughes: seem legit!
2021-02-13T16:04:24Z mdhughes: Me am pass for Human very good yes.
2021-02-13T16:04:26Z Zipheir: mangol: Sure.
2021-02-13T16:04:43Z Zipheir: mangol: This is why we've developed languages with very restricted semantics.
2021-02-13T16:04:54Z mangol: if words are a (lossy) representation of human thought, and thought arises from trillions of cells by evolution, language has to be complicated.
2021-02-13T16:05:32Z mangol: there's an interlisp application where somebody invented a natural language representation with nice computational properties so it's easier to reason about
2021-02-13T16:05:55Z amirouche: My experience at work, not a particular company, is that each company creates its own vocabulary with some specific meaning, that is not always obvious, and I am sure it is not specific to coders.
2021-02-13T16:06:03Z lockywolf: It's okay, you just need to choose the pictures with bicycles to prove you are a human.
2021-02-13T16:06:05Z mangol: we should ask jcowan about that. and also to invent an old english version of scheme by renaming imports like let => leave.
2021-02-13T16:08:30Z Zipheir: mangol: "...an interlisp application where somebody invented a natural language representation with nice computational properties..."  Sounds like Lojban.
2021-02-13T16:08:43Z Zipheir: Well, no.
2021-02-13T16:08:49Z mangol: when GPT-3 came out some people pointed out "that doesn't look like a convincing emulation of human thought" and others retorted "i know lots of people who are less coherent than that"
2021-02-13T16:08:50Z lockywolf: (laisser ((a "bon jour, le Monde")) (imprimer a))
2021-02-13T16:09:32Z lockywolf: There is a Russian version of BASIC though, on active duty.
2021-02-13T16:09:43Z mangol: Zipheir: the interlisp app is probably not a constructed language like lojban; more like a simplified grammar model of english or something.
2021-02-13T16:10:02Z amirouche: mangol: the latter is elitism, GPT-3 can not even spell how to cook an egg.
2021-02-13T16:10:28Z amirouche: cooking eggs is more important that explaning why planets never align in winter or such
2021-02-13T16:10:29Z Zipheir: mangol: Ah, OK.
2021-02-13T16:10:48Z mangol: Zipheir: http://index-of.co.uk/Computational-Linguistics/Kaplan_Maxwell-grammar_writers_workbench_lfg_manual.pdf
2021-02-13T16:10:50Z Zipheir: Perhaps unsurprisingly, I completely missed any news about GPT-3.
2021-02-13T16:10:56Z amirouche: I read GPT-2 or GPT-3 I was not impressed
2021-02-13T16:11:09Z amirouche: (again I do not know what was the previous SOTA)
2021-02-13T16:11:17Z lockywolf: srfi 212 should make i18n version of Scheme easy
2021-02-13T16:11:56Z amirouche: Zipheir: GPT-3 was and is private source, but people claim to have beaten GPT-3 with source.
2021-02-13T16:12:18Z lockywolf: *make making a
2021-02-13T16:12:28Z amirouche: source and model, but i do not recall the name of the algorithm
2021-02-13T16:12:30Z mangol: Zipheir: GPT-3 is probably the most insane breakthrough in AI ever
2021-02-13T16:12:43Z mdhughes: Recaptchas are easy. Bicycles are the lower three panels. Stoplights are the upper 3. Signs are on the sides. Repeat until it lets me thru.
2021-02-13T16:13:11Z amirouche: until borg figues it out.
2021-02-13T16:13:15Z amirouche: figures*
2021-02-13T16:13:19Z amirouche back to coding.
2021-02-13T16:13:23Z lockywolf: I've seen gpt-3's trained on Russian news, syndicated to twitter.
2021-02-13T16:13:44Z mangol: amirouche: there are egg cooking AIs (or hamburger making anyway). that's also a very hard problem.
2021-02-13T16:13:50Z lockywolf: GPT-3 is good at presenting the life as a greater nightmare than it actually is.
2021-02-13T16:14:44Z amirouche: mangol: yeah, but GPT-3 does not do all of that at once, if it can, it requires new weeks of training unlike people that are incoherant when speaking about meta universe
2021-02-13T16:15:04Z mangol: people require several years of training before they can cook eggs
2021-02-13T16:15:14Z amirouche: I bet it easier to explain gravity to a human, than to gpt-3
2021-02-13T16:15:32Z lockywolf: and sometimes they fail and you have to start from Scratch :)
2021-02-13T16:15:55Z mangol: i was going to say a human is more convincing at GPT-3 at claiming that it understands gravity, but i'm not sure.
2021-02-13T16:16:03Z lockywolf: sorry, it's past midnight
2021-02-13T16:16:09Z lockywolf: good luck everyoe
2021-02-13T16:16:10Z mangol: :D or stop at stratch
2021-02-13T16:16:28Z mangol: "scratch that!"
2021-02-13T16:16:54Z amirouche: mangol: easier task for a human: explain to a human, any human what is a bias like "xyz are evil people" they may disagree with you, but they understand the idea. GPT-3 can not suppress bias without "more code"
2021-02-13T16:17:22Z amirouche: or even understand what bias is.
2021-02-13T16:17:53Z amirouche: it nearly impossible to suppress bias in ml without more code, given the input data.
2021-02-13T16:18:23Z mangol: i agree that that is a good example of higher-level reasoning
2021-02-13T16:18:35Z mdhughes: If it's heard arguments about bias, it can probably bullshit you that it doesn't like bias, while its facial reco software continues to label all green-eyed people as criminals.
2021-02-13T16:18:56Z amirouche: :/
2021-02-13T16:19:08Z mangol: not too dissimilar from what most people, and everyone does to some extent
2021-02-13T16:19:11Z mdhughes: Indistinguishable from an LAPD officer.
2021-02-13T16:19:38Z amirouche: mangol: the difference, is that you can easily teach a person about bias, not an algorithm.
2021-02-13T16:20:21Z Zipheir: Hahah.
2021-02-13T16:20:24Z mangol: yes, the capacity for basic moral reasoning is built into most people but not into any general-purpose AI
2021-02-13T16:20:37Z amirouche: mangol: exactly what I want to say.
2021-02-13T16:21:12Z amirouche: mangol: but bias in media is not obvious, it interesting to see the reality according to the media (dataset) and reality as omniscient truth.
2021-02-13T16:21:25Z amirouche: is not obvious even for a human.
2021-02-13T16:21:46Z Zipheir: Evolution has given us some useful algorithms.
2021-02-13T16:21:54Z mangol: that will never be possible unless human nature changes fundamentally so it's no longer wired for scarcity economics.
2021-02-13T16:22:07Z mdhughes: It takes Humans about 18 years of training to be "morally competent" enough to be called adults.
2021-02-13T16:22:18Z mdhughes: And that's like an 80% rule.
2021-02-13T16:22:27Z amirouche: I have doubled that number :D
2021-02-13T16:22:51Z amirouche: last week ;)
2021-02-13T16:23:00Z amirouche: I am two adults now :)
2021-02-13T16:23:00Z Riastradh: amirouche: I have bad news for you about the efficacy of implicit bias training on police...
2021-02-13T16:23:14Z mdhughes: Good job fooling them for that long!
2021-02-13T16:23:28Z Zipheir: mdhughes: That's a legal fiction.  Ask people in another country/religion/group and they'll say 10, 13, 15, 21,...
2021-02-13T16:23:43Z mdhughes: "about"
2021-02-13T16:23:50Z Zipheir: Right.
2021-02-13T16:24:05Z mangol: scarcity is the main reason people are dicks, and any brute force attempt to remove people's bias would probably backfire horribly
2021-02-13T16:24:19Z amirouche: yes
2021-02-13T16:24:32Z mangol: it's not good to reason about what's good for humanity (in whole or in part) from "normal" circumstances (relatively stable society)
2021-02-13T16:24:47Z mdhughes: honkies aren't usually driven by scarcity, and yet are often dicks to minorities.
2021-02-13T16:24:48Z amirouche: you can, but you need to add how to achieve it :)
2021-02-13T16:24:51Z Zipheir: Imagined scarcity drives people to weird thinking, myself included, obviously.
2021-02-13T16:25:26Z mangol: mdhughes: scarcity on evolutionary timescales
2021-02-13T16:25:32Z amirouche: achieve it = the route to go there.
2021-02-13T16:26:28Z amirouche: honkies or whatever live in scarcity world, and their permissions come from that too, hence they live the other side of the coin of scarcity.
2021-02-13T16:28:10Z mangol: it would be extremely dangerous to re-wire people into an abundance mindset
2021-02-13T16:28:58Z mangol: we all already have mixed scarcity/abundance mindset. the scarcity parts are there for a reason
2021-02-13T16:29:05Z amirouche: I hope it does not happen overnight
2021-02-13T16:29:25Z Zipheir: Scarcity-thinking comes in a lot of forms.  "There's not enough compassion for me, not enough meaning to my existence, not enough ..."
2021-02-13T16:29:45Z mangol: programmers living stable countries with a comfortable middle-class lifestyle are the last people anyone should let remove defensive programming from the human nervous system
2021-02-13T16:30:08Z mangol: have you ever even been in a knife fight?
2021-02-13T16:30:37Z wasamasa: have you ever been a true scotsman
2021-02-13T16:30:52Z amirouche: have you ever seen a rainbow
2021-02-13T16:32:43Z jcowan: Have you ever?  No, I never!
2021-02-13T16:33:44Z jcowan: I've been looking into the mathematical/logical construction "let X be a goat, and let Y be a missionary, and let Z be a cannibal ...".  I've checked several dictionaries and they are silent on it.
2021-02-13T16:39:39Z mdhughes: You give the missionary to the cannibal, and you take the goat. That maximizes happiness.
2021-02-13T16:42:58Z mdhughes: https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2569
2021-02-13T16:45:22Z Zipheir: Does English `let' correspond to let, let*, or letrec?
2021-02-13T16:45:38Z amirouche: I dislike that pyramid meme since it is still not clear whether people were forced to work.
2021-02-13T16:45:57Z amirouche: but the comic is neat.
2021-02-13T16:46:11Z mdhughes: "voluntary" in that they were paid but there wasn't a lot of other paying work between harvests.
2021-02-13T16:46:32Z amirouche: mdhughes: that is different from forced, that is the modern way-of-life.
2021-02-13T16:46:52Z amirouche: at least in the modern sens of "forced"
2021-02-13T16:46:54Z mdhughes: Modern as in last 10,000 years since civilization/agriculture was invented!
2021-02-13T16:47:00Z amirouche: yeah
2021-02-13T16:47:31Z amirouche: (but not for everybody, forced was still a thing for some)
2021-02-13T16:48:30Z jcowan: There is some overlap between _let_ and _leave_, as in _Let me alone!_ = _Leave me alone!_, but mostly there isn't.
2021-02-13T16:48:31Z mdhughes: The nomadic hunter lifestyle seems more fun, but it's not all bad. I've got videogames and a plate of pub mix, and I've already outlived all my nomadic hunter ancestors.
2021-02-13T16:49:21Z mdhughes: The occasional pyramid building's a small price to pay/be paid for.
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2021-02-13T16:50:10Z Zipheir: It seems like the whole pyramid thing was very much a product of the sedentary agricultural world.
2021-02-13T16:50:23Z jcowan: A high civilization is not inconsistent with the absence of agriculture, as for example the natives of the U.S. Pacific Northwest and further into Canada and Alaska.
2021-02-13T16:51:07Z jcowan: too manu negations
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2021-02-13T16:51:35Z mdhughes: Most places aren't as comfortable and food-rich as the PNW, and even then it supported <1% of the population it does now.
2021-02-13T16:51:58Z jcowan: Sure.  I'm just saying that "hunter-gatherer lifestyle" is not all one thing.
2021-02-13T16:52:24Z mdhughes: Whether that's good or not, the ruthless utilitarian computer says "more people = more Felix"
2021-02-13T16:55:41Z mangol: on long enough timescales, the programming that is best prepared for the worst situations probably wins.
2021-02-13T16:56:03Z mangol: focus on abundance is wont to find local optima like Felix
2021-02-13T16:56:12Z amirouche: I have theory why europe succeed faster than other region of the world: because in the west of europe there were less dangerous animals and more food.
2021-02-13T16:56:39Z mangol: civilizations that are really well off can consume all their natural resources, or otherwise become complacent and be replaced by a less complacent culture
2021-02-13T16:57:28Z mdhughes: Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, & Steel argued the spread of diseases was easier, and an east-west region can share agriculture
2021-02-13T16:58:09Z mdhughes: North-south regions like Africa have temperature-banded diseases and agriculture, so it's hard to build one civilization there.
2021-02-13T17:00:22Z amirouche: wasamasa: do you vote for CLI tool or HTTP tool ?
2021-02-13T17:00:31Z amirouche: wasamasa: re dubutusu
2021-02-13T17:00:42Z amirouche: I mean dutubusu
2021-02-13T17:00:52Z Zipheir: amirouche: What's dutubusu?
2021-02-13T17:01:07Z amirouche: Zipheir: it is a database expcept s/a/u/g
2021-02-13T17:01:23Z Zipheir: Oh, heh.
2021-02-13T17:01:37Z Zipheir: Both, CLI and HTTP.
2021-02-13T17:01:55Z amirouche: Zipheir: I am rewriting srfi-167 to be more readable and hopefully will gather the code for some higher level stuff like nstore (and hopefully better API)
2021-02-13T17:04:09Z amirouche: ok I will try both then.
2021-02-13T17:06:19Z Zipheir: CLI tool design can actually be somewhat tricky.  Many famous examples are very complicated (git).
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2021-02-13T17:12:34Z jcowan: I've been using the alternative CLI porcelain gitless very successfully: about 99% of all git operations I do work well with gitless, and the mental model is very similar.
2021-02-13T17:12:40Z jcowan: s/similar/simple
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2021-02-13T17:13:51Z wasamasa: amirouche: I'm not sure what either is for
2021-02-13T17:13:58Z Zipheir: jcowan: Very cool, thanks.  I hadn't heard of gitless.
2021-02-13T17:14:08Z wasamasa: amirouche: yes, there is value in a CLI tool for experimentation and dumping/restoring/inspecting a database
2021-02-13T17:14:33Z wasamasa: amirouche: there is also value in a dumb HTTP API to avoid writing a complicated database driver from other languages
2021-02-13T17:14:57Z wasamasa: amirouche: but who knows what you're scheming
2021-02-13T17:15:05Z jcowan: The git index is no longer part of the mental model, and you are always on some branch; if you create an untracked file on a branch and switch to another branch, the file disappears, only to reappear when you return to the original branch.
2021-02-13T17:16:39Z jcowan: "git clone <url>" is more convenient than "mkdir <name>; cd <name>; gl init <url>", but that's easily recovered by a shell script, and the model "init creates a repo, whether new or cloned" is very clear.
2021-02-13T17:18:40Z jcowan: also, gl diff is primarily for untracked or tracked modified but uncommitted files; for fancy cross-branch diffs you need to use git diff.
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2021-02-13T17:53:34Z gwatt: jcowan: presumably you can do `git clone <url>` and then use gitless inside the repo?
2021-02-13T17:53:51Z jcowan: Oh yes, they are 100% compatible on the wire and in memory.
2021-02-13T17:54:11Z Zipheir: *sigh*  gitless has brought down the furies of Python/libgit dependency hell.
2021-02-13T17:54:15Z jcowan: Carrying untracked files along with a branch is done by clever use of git stash.
2021-02-13T17:54:28Z jcowan: There is that, yes.
2021-02-13T17:55:38Z jcowan: s/in memory/on local disk
2021-02-13T17:56:24Z jcowan: The Plan 9 git client is wire-compatible only; there are warnings about what happens if you share a repo copy between Plan 9 and Unix-in-the-broad-sense.
2021-02-13T17:58:42Z jcowan: "The most obvious difference is that Git's index is a bit boneheaded, so I'm ignoring it.  The index doesn't affect the wire protocol, so this isn't an interoperability issue, unless you share the same physical repository on both Plan 9 and Unix.  If you do, expect them to disagree about the files that have been modified in the working copy.
2021-02-13T17:58:42Z jcowan: In fact, the entire concept of the staging area has been dropped, as it's both confusing and clunky.  There are now only three states that files can be in: 'untracked', 'dirty', and 'committed'.  Tracking is done with empty files under .git/index9/{removed,tracked}/path/to/file."
2021-02-13T17:59:15Z gwatt: what does "wire compatible only" mean? You can only share information via pushing / pulling? If you try to shrae a repo via a usb stick it will break?
2021-02-13T18:00:28Z Zipheir: If only Git would drop the staging area, period.
2021-02-13T18:04:06Z Zipheir: gwatt: That sounds about right.
2021-02-13T18:06:20Z jcowan: "expect them to disagree aobut the files that have been modified".  But I don't know that that is fatal.  You can clone the original, then copy the files from the USB on top of them.
2021-02-13T18:07:12Z ecraven: it should only be a problem for uncommitted work, from that description
2021-02-13T18:07:37Z jcowan nods
2021-02-13T18:08:31Z jcowan: I guess it depends on whether you belong to the commit-rarely or the commit-often school.  I faor commit-rarely and merge over commit-often and squash (or fuse, as gl calls it).
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2021-02-13T19:22:15Z siraben: squashing destroys any hope of running a bisection
2021-02-13T19:22:34Z siraben: banish your merge commits and rebase to the moon!
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2021-02-13T19:23:01Z jcowan: Furthermore, squashing lies about the history
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2021-02-13T19:23:14Z jcowan: you get to pretend that you never committed (pun!) any mistakes
2021-02-13T19:27:38Z mdhughes: I tend to work on one thing for however long it takes, and check in once.
2021-02-13T19:28:23Z mdhughes: Which drives some of the Kids Today™ crazy, because they want to see hourly commits for some reason. As if there's any useful unit of work in that?
2021-02-13T19:32:14Z jcowan: It's better than planting spyware on your work computer to make sure you are really working.
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2021-02-13T19:34:28Z Zipheir: The useful thing about small commits, of course, is that it's easier to find and revert errors.
2021-02-13T19:36:20Z gwatt: Zipheir: assuming of course that each commit actually compiles. I've definitely been guilty of careless commits that won't build
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2021-02-13T20:13:15Z ecraven: I like intermediate (and later squashed) commits, because then I don't fear losing anything by just refactoring and exploring all the time
2021-02-13T20:14:48Z amirouche: I still do not understand how to work in a team while people use rebase -i and fixup / squash commits.
2021-02-13T20:15:05Z amirouche: magit will create fixup commit which is different and less painful.
2021-02-13T20:15:26Z ecraven: well, I only *push* after squashing, so nobody every sees it
2021-02-13T20:16:18Z amirouche: also, many small commits (a couple of lines) are painful to revert compared to the same 10 lines commit which is also more readalbe as a diff.
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2021-02-13T20:18:31Z amirouche: I used to squash fixup before pusing, but then I discovered a new way-of-life that "atomic commits" and beautiful git history.
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2021-02-13T20:18:57Z amirouche: atomic commit == 10 or less lines of code according to coworker.
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2021-02-13T20:20:15Z amirouche: also: beautiful code is 10 files with 10 lines of code instead of one file with 100 lines of code.
2021-02-13T20:20:42Z amirouche: that way you can be creative with naming functions and files.
2021-02-13T20:20:58Z ecraven: I disagree with those numbers ;) 100 lines is still very much ok for a file
2021-02-13T20:21:04Z ecraven: unless your writing forth :P
2021-02-13T20:21:08Z amirouche: haha
2021-02-13T20:21:14Z amirouche: yup
2021-02-13T20:21:36Z amirouche: I can't argue with my coworker for the time being.
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2021-02-13T20:21:48Z ecraven: it's strange, on the one hand, I like colorForth, on the other, OpenGenera / Medley...
2021-02-13T20:28:40Z Zipheir: I think the best guideline is that a commit describes all of one conceptual change; if the change is too big for one commit and can't be subdivided, organizing the commits in someway ("part 1/2, part 2/2" labels, perhaps) is helpful.
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2021-02-13T20:33:30Z amirouche: +1 Zipheir
2021-02-13T20:36:35Z amirouche: in a previous company, the history looked like that in order of commit with full message and relative time of commit in production branch the mighty master: 1) add feature 0m 2) fix +1m 3) hotfix +15min 4) revert 3 +30 min 5) revert 2 +31 6) revert 1 +32
2021-02-13T20:36:58Z amirouche: with production deployement for every single commit
2021-02-13T20:37:22Z amirouche: they raised $12m.
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2021-02-13T20:38:31Z amirouche: the first commit is a squashed commit, the full github history of the branch is dozen of commit with a single word as msg "wip"
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2021-02-13T20:41:07Z amirouche: the first week at work, I ran the test suite it failed, I asked my cto, he told me it works because that "other co-worker" who maintain that service, second run test run it works.
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2021-02-13T20:44:39Z amirouche1: that was a non-deterministic bug, because they consider that {value: key for key, value in dict.items()} always work.
2021-02-13T20:45:27Z amirouche1: ie. reversing key-value relation of the hash-table.
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2021-02-13T20:47:03Z amirouche1: anyway, I should start another worse-than-failure website and get blocklisted from all companies.
2021-02-13T20:50:09Z amirouche1: another story, they asked why I do async code in my free time it is useless, most of their code can be summaried as: request.POST(url, reponse.body), and sometime they try to call... mongodb.. 2.x.
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2021-02-13T20:50:54Z amirouche1: that is they massage json from upstream and forward it to some "downstream".
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2021-02-13T20:51:23Z amirouche1: all the way down. the whole business abstract view is about forwarding json.
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2021-02-13T20:59:52Z amirouche: I also had the luck to look at some code of one person that left the company to become one of the few that had the right to grant the commit bit on python project at google.
2021-02-13T21:00:09Z amirouche: now, I have more than one reason to no join google.
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2021-02-13T21:04:24Z amirouche: One seasoned developer might think, he just tried to maintain the code base that he inherited, and did their best. In fact, he was the primary contributor of the project starting it from scratch. That code was called by all other microservices of the company. Two year after he left, I joined, their buggy code was still their making any dev more difficult that it could be. And when I asked to patch,
2021-02-13T21:04:25Z amirouche: they said "that is dangerous".
2021-02-13T21:06:19Z amirouche: Everybody was complaining about that code, it not just me.
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2021-02-13T21:10:29Z amirouche: One last story: once I commited a bug in production in the billing service, it stayed like that around one month until someone complained, it cost us several bucks of non-paid services.
2021-02-13T21:10:46Z amirouche: The bug was fixed.
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2021-02-13T21:12:19Z amirouche: And I added a fix to not silence exceptions inside all programs of the company that reach the top of the stack (it was a one liner), it took two or three month to be merged.
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2021-02-13T21:14:11Z amirouche: + my friendly cto told me not to complain.
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2021-02-14T02:47:55Z zdm: does mit-scheme have packages/namespaces or are environment the closest to that?
2021-02-14T02:48:02Z zdm: environments*
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2021-02-14T08:16:16Z ecraven: environments *are* packages / namespaces. they aren't R7RS (fully yet) I think, but it seems they will be at some point
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2021-02-14T11:45:18Z polezaivsani: An abstract question from somebody who barely understands what he speaks about - is the idea of incremental development (think repls, lisp system images, etc.) at home among schemers?
2021-02-14T11:45:54Z polezaivsani: i understand that not every implementation would care about it, but is it part of a broader cultural background around here?
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2021-02-14T11:56:24Z mario-goulart: polezaivsani: Regarding the REPL, I'd say yes.  Regarding images, I don't think it's very usual.
2021-02-14T11:56:30Z pinoaffe: polezaivsani: I think most "general purpose" scheme implementations have at least some way to integrate a REPL into the code-writing process
2021-02-14T11:57:11Z wasamasa: the idea is not mandated by the standard to allow for a wide spectrum of implementations
2021-02-14T11:57:16Z wasamasa: unlike with, say, CL
2021-02-14T11:57:54Z wasamasa: where a lot of thought has been put into language design to allow incremental programming
2021-02-14T11:59:14Z polezaivsani: Sweet!  I'll go on learning more scheme knowing that this dear to me perk would stay.  Thank you!
2021-02-14T11:59:27Z edgar-rft: memory images are a concept used in the 1980s, today most compilers produce executable binary code according to the conventions of the respective operating system
2021-02-14T12:00:52Z wasamasa: for example racket people are against the idea because it would unnecessarily confuse students
2021-02-14T12:01:23Z wasamasa: their approach is to always clean out the top level, then load up all the code
2021-02-14T12:01:40Z wasamasa: otherwise there might be inconsistencies between what's loaded up and what's on disk
2021-02-14T12:04:10Z polezaivsani: wasamasa: yep, i see how that could cause some confussion, at least it did some to me when i was learning to go around repls coming from a world delienated by processes.
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2021-02-14T12:04:54Z polezaivsani: wasn't too painful, and the fruits turn out to be well worth it
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2021-02-14T13:28:06Z mdhughes: Right, but it does make the DrRacket GUI unusable for REPL work. But the command-line racket is fine.
2021-02-14T13:29:10Z ecraven: polezaivsani: the system I found that most supports this is MIT/GNU Scheme
2021-02-14T13:29:24Z ecraven: but it is not as far along the way as all CL implementations are, imho
2021-02-14T13:29:46Z mdhughes: Chez has a really great REPL with built-in editor. MIT Scheme is integrated with edwin, so C-x C-e to eval a line.
2021-02-14T13:29:47Z ecraven: I don't know of *any* Scheme implementation that even comes close to CL (or the old Lisps) in that regard
2021-02-14T13:30:26Z ecraven: mdhughes: Chez doesn't give you any way to edit loaded modules, it often needs to be restarted if you change the code of such libraries... it is definitely not one of the better Schemes for *incremental* development on the running system
2021-02-14T13:30:35Z ecraven: of course, it all depends on what "incremental" means exactly
2021-02-14T13:30:53Z mdhughes: You can use (load "code.ss") over and over.
2021-02-14T13:31:09Z ecraven: unless chez complains about cyclic dependencies (which it does often, at least for me)
2021-02-14T13:31:11Z mdhughes: Just has to not be a top-level library, which is easy enough to wrap in an .sld
2021-02-14T13:31:41Z ecraven: I'm just saying, if you are used to what CL offers, there is no Scheme that offers anything similar, afaik
2021-02-14T13:31:42Z mdhughes: My workflow is Chez REPL, and then I copy-paste working bits from terminal or ~/.chezhistory
2021-02-14T13:32:14Z mdhughes: CL? Or emacs?
2021-02-14T13:32:57Z ecraven: I'm talking about CL specifically. elisp is similar, but I'm not sure Scheme should aspire to be more like elisp in *any* way ;)
2021-02-14T13:33:33Z ecraven: for CL, there are a few items I'd like *implementations* to offer (not actually language-wise, but just implementation support for things like restarts, introspection, debugging, ..)
2021-02-14T13:35:07Z ecraven: for example, start chez-scheme, type (+ 1 'a), then tell me how to get the debugger to specifically show me the expression I typed in [i.e. (+ 1 'a)] which failed. maybe it's just me, and I don't know how to properly use the debugger (a rather probable explanation too ;)
2021-02-14T13:38:20Z mdhughes: On a single expression I dunno, in a longer function you can hit (debug) and step thru the code.
2021-02-14T13:40:10Z polezaivsani: ecraven: mdhughes: thanks!  MIT/Gnu scheme has been a prime contended for vague application tasks, but then i decided to learn about the ecosystem some more before - at leat enough to make half justified decisions
2021-02-14T13:43:14Z mdhughes: The drawback of MIT Scheme is it's not really suitable for large programs, since it doesn't do libraries, only (load)
2021-02-14T13:43:53Z mdhughes: So you have no information hiding, it's just all one giant ball of hairy bubblegum once you get past a couple files.
2021-02-14T13:45:28Z polezaivsani: modules, libraries - that was the reason i decided to learn about the landscape some more before committing to any implementations
2021-02-14T13:45:34Z mdhughes: CHICKEN's another good impl, but it has the worst interactive experience, csi is slow and doesn't even do command editing until you install breadline.
2021-02-14T13:45:57Z mdhughes: But it's the best "just install a library and call it" compile experience.
2021-02-14T13:46:01Z wasamasa: I'm still taking ideas for improving breadline :>
2021-02-14T13:46:11Z wasamasa: other than make it behave exactly like chez
2021-02-14T13:46:50Z wasamasa: it now behaves properly in the presence of interrupts, that was my last big annoyance
2021-02-14T13:46:56Z mdhughes: wasamasa: Everything that Chez's editor does. … Oh you said that! :)
2021-02-14T13:50:43Z wasamasa: you could theoretically pull that off, but it would take lots of effort
2021-02-14T13:51:19Z mdhughes: The source is available, I haven't looked to see how it's implemented, tho.
2021-02-14T13:51:42Z mdhughes: Could be as easy as making a few shim functions for curses/raw ANSI.
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2021-02-14T13:56:09Z wasamasa: readline offers creating your own custom editing functions, exposing that shouldn't be too hard
2021-02-14T13:56:28Z wasamasa: the question is though whether the API is sufficiently powerful to do all the fancy stuff in chez :P
2021-02-14T13:56:47Z wasamasa: so far I only went for the small quality of life improvements
2021-02-14T13:57:28Z mdhughes: And any of that is appreciated! (well, I don't spend much time in csi anymore)
2021-02-14T13:57:53Z wasamasa: me neither
2021-02-14T13:59:00Z wasamasa: it's almost only documentation-driven editing in emacs and running the compiler/interpreter on the file
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2021-02-14T14:36:15Z ecraven: mdhughes: MIT/GNU Scheme does support libraries, just not R7RS ones (fully) yet. there is much more than just `LOAD'
2021-02-14T14:38:19Z mdhughes: Where and how?
2021-02-14T14:38:48Z ecraven: look for `define-package' in the source code
2021-02-14T14:39:22Z mdhughes: So it's not in the docs?
2021-02-14T14:39:25Z ecraven: it supports most of the things r7rs libraries do, just in a very different syntax
2021-02-14T14:39:38Z ecraven: I don't think it is, though it's been in the implementation for a long time
2021-02-14T14:39:46Z ecraven: Riastradh knows way more about this than I do
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2021-02-14T14:40:55Z ecraven: quite a few interesting parts of MIT/GNU Scheme are not documented in the manuals ;)
2021-02-14T14:41:13Z ecraven: when compiled, it is also one of the faster Schemes. it really is a very good implementation!
2021-02-14T14:43:20Z ecraven: there has been some work going on in supporting "normal" R7RS libraries, but it's not finished yet, I believe
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2021-02-14T14:47:07Z mdhughes: I do need to update my library examples with a compiled MIT Scheme program, but until there's a standard library system I'm probably not updating that.
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2021-02-14T16:03:04Z cybersyn: i've always been a "normal" font size kind of person. but with scheme I just love turning the face up a little big, like 16pt, feels a little rebel with a hint of ultra-luxury. anyone else feel the same way?
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2021-02-14T17:43:26Z amirouche: the problem of naming RnRS would be much easier if there was conformance test suite
2021-02-14T17:43:53Z amirouche: maybe that has too much too do with R6RS must'ard
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2021-02-14T17:50:41Z ecraven: amirouche: not very good, but it's part of what r7rs-coverage wants to be one day when it grows up
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2021-02-14T18:21:49Z Riastradh: mit-scheme's package system is a crufty relic of the past
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2021-02-14T19:35:20Z jgart: hi, can (define one 1) be thought of as a function that returns 1?
2021-02-14T19:35:38Z Zipheir: Not really.
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2021-02-14T19:36:20Z Zipheir: I mean, not in Scheme terms.  In an abstract model, sure.
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2021-02-14T19:37:32Z jgart: In erlang one can do the following: one() -> 1.
2021-02-14T19:38:05Z jgart: how do I define a function like that in scheme?
2021-02-14T19:38:28Z Zipheir: What does that notation mean?
2021-02-14T19:40:52Z jgart: It's a function called one that takes no arguments and always returns 1
2021-02-14T19:41:13Z Zipheir: OK, then (λ () 1).
2021-02-14T19:41:37Z Zipheir: Well, (define (one) 1).
2021-02-14T19:41:59Z jgart: The dot at the end is syntax for how one ends a function definition in erlang.
2021-02-14T19:42:09Z jgart: ahh ok
2021-02-14T19:42:19Z jgart: cool
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2021-02-14T19:42:47Z jgart: thanks! and of course
2021-02-14T19:44:23Z jgart: or: (define one (lambda () 1))
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2021-02-14T19:45:04Z Zipheir: Sure, Dybvig style.
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2021-02-14T19:49:44Z amirouche: ecraven: yeah, but like the benchmark it is difficult to run
2021-02-14T19:49:56Z amirouche: ecraven: did you consider using guix vm?
2021-02-14T19:50:19Z amirouche: cybersyn: :D
2021-02-14T19:51:24Z amirouche: cybersyn: 16px looks bit large
2021-02-14T19:51:43Z amirouche: on related topic, I can not read prose with 12px or even 14px I need 16px
2021-02-14T19:51:52Z amirouche: but with code 10px or 12px are just fine.
2021-02-14T19:52:10Z amirouche: my python code is 14px...
2021-02-14T19:53:08Z amirouche: cybersyn: my hint of ultra-luxury is using wayland + sway + emacs -nw with transparent background
2021-02-14T19:53:21Z amirouche: and allacrity
2021-02-14T19:53:27Z amirouche: and alacritty
2021-02-14T19:54:55Z amirouche: Did I mention rainbow-delimiters :)
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2021-02-14T19:55:13Z amirouche: it will be super-ultra-luxury when I will have my own editor.
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2021-02-14T19:58:11Z amirouche: Zipheir: isn't what jgart does alpha or beta reduction or something with alpha?
2021-02-14T19:58:24Z amirouche: Seems like they want to delay the computation of something.
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2021-02-14T20:00:09Z Zipheir: amirouche: Abstraction is the λ-calculus term, IIRC.
2021-02-14T20:00:53Z amirouche: usually, it is not done on constants, but it might happen that you need with a constant when that constant replace the computation
2021-02-14T20:01:09Z amirouche: oh Abstraction, the mighty word I repeat all the time.
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2021-02-14T20:09:14Z cybersyn: amirouche: right there with you, the same exact setup over here (minus the transparence, except on a few frames like IRC)
2021-02-14T20:09:24Z cybersyn: ++ guix system
2021-02-14T20:09:37Z amirouche: cybersyn: guix has guix?
2021-02-14T20:09:41Z amirouche: cybersyn: guix has wayland ?
2021-02-14T20:09:46Z cybersyn: it does!
2021-02-14T20:09:57Z cybersyn: there is sway
2021-02-14T20:10:00Z amirouche: oh
2021-02-14T20:10:08Z cybersyn: join us :)
2021-02-14T20:10:14Z amirouche: I use ubuntu, that is pain sway + video + audio
2021-02-14T20:10:21Z amirouche: cybersyn: haha
2021-02-14T20:10:37Z amirouche: cybersyn: I need so corporate app like slack
2021-02-14T20:10:51Z amirouche: cybersyn: and the same browser as the user -> chrome
2021-02-14T20:11:05Z cybersyn: well, there not really anything stopping you on guix, beyond how much time you want to spend packaging
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2021-02-14T20:11:35Z amirouche: In fact I already tried guix, spent some time with guile, then I discovered #scheme and I prefer #scheme
2021-02-14T20:11:41Z cybersyn: we have "ungoogled chromium" and it hasn't caused any dilemmas yet for myself
2021-02-14T20:11:45Z amirouche: even packaged some stuff for guix
2021-02-14T20:12:02Z amirouche: still guix is awesome
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2021-02-14T20:12:10Z cybersyn: but its very simple to use proprietary software on guix
2021-02-14T20:12:21Z amirouche: with pathelf?
2021-02-14T20:12:37Z cybersyn: i don't know pathelf
2021-02-14T20:13:09Z cybersyn: they certainly don't try to make it hard for you to use a standard linux kernel, they just don't distribute it themselves
2021-02-14T20:13:19Z cybersyn: check out nonguix on gitlab
2021-02-14T20:13:53Z cybersyn: there is a running channel you can add to your guix that includes most proprietary blobs you may need
2021-02-14T20:17:24Z amirouche: I may look at it, thanks for the idea.
2021-02-14T20:18:00Z cybersyn: np
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2021-02-14T21:56:51Z Zipheir: jgart: If you're using those 'thunks' to implement some kind of lazy computation, you might want to use delay/force instead.  If I have (define (expr) (some-expensive-computation)), then (some-expensive-computation) will be evaluated every time expr is called.
2021-02-14T21:58:33Z Zipheir: jgart: With (define expr-delayed (delay (some-expensive-computation))), forcing expr-delayed should only evaluate (some-expensive-computation) once; the value should be cached for later calls.
2021-02-14T21:59:09Z Zipheir: Of course, sometimes the difference doesn't matter.
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2021-02-15T04:41:31Z remby: can you do lexical analysis for the scheme language?
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2021-02-15T04:44:29Z Zipheir: remby: How do you mean?  Like, with lex?
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2021-02-15T04:46:21Z remby: I might be over thinking it
2021-02-15T04:46:58Z remby: so for, (define (foo list) (car list)), there are not keywords, but I wonder how you would handle special forms
2021-02-15T04:47:33Z remby: but lexical there really are not that many elements are there
2021-02-15T04:50:04Z Zipheir: I'm not understanding very well, it seems.
2021-02-15T04:52:15Z remby: argh sorry, (define (foo if) if)
2021-02-15T04:52:22Z remby: list is not a special form
2021-02-15T04:53:19Z Zipheir: if isn't a special form either, in that example.
2021-02-15T04:54:37Z remby: yeah, but it seems it would be difficult to capture with a regular expression
2021-02-15T04:55:36Z Zipheir: The token 'if'?
2021-02-15T04:55:41Z remby: yeah
2021-02-15T04:56:14Z Zipheir: But it's just a literal string.
2021-02-15T04:56:33Z Zipheir: (string=? TOKEN "if")
2021-02-15T04:57:01Z remby: ok, I get it, forgot the context that this is stream based
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2021-02-15T04:58:59Z rudybot: la la la
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2021-02-15T09:10:21Z mdhughes: The whole reason there's a LISP is everyone was too lazy to implement McCarthy's original syntax, they just used the ugly almost-machine-format.
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2021-02-15T09:11:03Z mdhughes: And most of the time it's good enough, once you get used to it. The logic's the part that matters.
2021-02-15T09:12:22Z mdhughes: So you just parse (), words, strings, and # tokens, and you're done. eval reads those, it doesn't even need a lex parser, just one char read-ahead.
2021-02-15T09:13:06Z amirouche: if you do not dive into specific, you just need "read-char"
2021-02-15T09:13:14Z amirouche: no look ahead.
2021-02-15T09:13:56Z amirouche: the control chars are ( ) space
2021-02-15T09:14:21Z amirouche: obviously, a production parser is more complex / advanced.
2021-02-15T09:14:39Z amirouche: but for something like LOSE you do not need that much sophisticated parser.
2021-02-15T09:16:42Z mdhughes: You could probably reorganize it to avoid read-ahead, but it's a lot easier to push back adjacent tokens. Most Schemes don't require whitespace everywhere!
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2021-02-15T09:19:05Z amirouche: yes, with parenthese, space, newline as control char you can parse (foo(bar(baz)))
2021-02-15T09:19:31Z amirouche: but things like |foo bar baz| can not be parsed.
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2021-02-15T09:27:30Z mdhughes: Why? | is a delimiter, you can easily read that one without even read-ahead
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2021-02-15T14:41:11Z Oxyd: You're going to need a lookahead to tell apart - (a symbol) and -5 (a number).
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2021-02-15T16:40:27Z edmoore: has anyone else tried to build mit-scheme (11.1 - latest stable) on up to date MacOS? I am getting the following build error:
2021-02-15T16:40:36Z edmoore: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TTiKLT9L/
2021-02-15T16:48:57Z Riastradh: edmoore: chris just fixed that
2021-02-15T16:49:28Z edmoore: who is chris and how do I thank him
2021-02-15T16:49:41Z edmoore: (and i presume then i should just clone the source and build from head?)
2021-02-15T16:51:26Z edmoore: _or_ it can wait a week or two if it's going to shortly appear on stable - I'd just like to try and work through SICM in the few remaining weeks of lockdown and cold weather here
2021-02-15T16:52:41Z Riastradh: Probably easiest to just apply this patch: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/patch/?id=b5378f180ba4e2685d8fca58d1e2e20f4c62b893
2021-02-15T16:52:50Z Riastradh: cd mit-scheme-11.1 && patch -p1 < /path/to/patch
2021-02-15T16:53:02Z Riastradh: (to build from git you need an existing mit-scheme installation)
2021-02-15T16:53:40Z edmoore: i have just found that
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2021-02-15T17:03:29Z edmoore: I've applied the patch which has unclogged that bit but now is sad in the following way:
2021-02-15T17:03:32Z edmoore: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qYUJMMFe/
2021-02-15T17:08:06Z Riastradh: oh
2021-02-15T17:08:07Z Riastradh: pfeh
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2021-02-15T17:19:54Z edmoore: yes quite. I’ll just hang here for a bit and have another go later
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2021-02-15T18:02:00Z rudybot: la la la
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2021-02-15T20:26:39Z Riastradh: edmoore: Try using touch(1) to make x11-shim.h older than stamp-shim and try again.
2021-02-15T20:27:19Z edmoore: willdo, just trying to cross-build from the git atm, based on some advice you gave in mit-scheme-devel
2021-02-15T20:27:33Z edmoore: all this effort just to be tortured by hamilton
2021-02-15T20:28:57Z Riastradh: FYI, you'll need to do x86-only for now (under Rosetta if you're on an M1); there's a remaining showstopper for native aarch64 on Macs.
2021-02-15T20:29:17Z edmoore: i7, and did this instruction
2021-02-15T20:29:19Z edmoore: ./configure --enable-cross-compiling --enable-native-code=x86-64
2021-02-15T20:29:30Z edmoore: seems to have built, just installing then will try and install scmutils
2021-02-15T20:29:32Z Riastradh: (which still requires a cross-build from 10.1.11 because of the ABI change, just letting you know in case you were cross-building x86->aarch64 to save you some effort)
2021-02-15T20:29:36Z Riastradh: cool
2021-02-15T20:29:53Z edmoore: cross-building from brew-installed mit-scheme which seems to have the non-native issue
2021-02-15T20:30:57Z edmoore: well, no dice
2021-02-15T20:31:02Z edmoore: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/mR9CtXRO/
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2021-02-15T20:31:56Z edmoore: mit-scheme itself built and installed fine and I got a prompt when i tried it just now
2021-02-15T20:34:46Z Riastradh: So mechanics.com is from 10.x, not from >=11.x.
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2021-02-15T20:41:27Z edmoore: just acking the above, will try and apply the patch to the 10.1 tarball if necessary then see how far i get
2021-02-15T20:42:21Z Riastradh: shouldn't be
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2021-02-15T20:42:29Z edmoore: correct - it built
2021-02-15T20:50:21Z edmoore: it works Riastradh !
2021-02-15T20:50:38Z edmoore: thank you for all your help, I wouldn't have got this figured out on my own
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2021-02-16T00:00:29Z zdm: some of you might find this interesting: https://git.sr.ht/~technomancy/menelaus
2021-02-16T00:01:06Z zdm: Its firmware for a keyboard written in a Scheme implementation
2021-02-16T00:01:35Z zdm: It's well documented with comments as well: https://git.sr.ht/~technomancy/menelaus/tree/master/item/menelaus.scm
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2021-02-16T02:22:57Z dieggsy: zdm: he hangs around #emacs, super cool to see his keyboard is more easily available for purchase now
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2021-02-16T02:37:12Z polezaivsani: zdm: lovely source alright, find myself wanting that keyboard every once in a while, for all the wrong reasons )
2021-02-16T02:39:09Z zdm: polezaivsani: i like it but i would want parens available to me without the need to get at them with its layer switching
2021-02-16T02:39:37Z zdm: there doesnt seem a comfortable place for parens on it, unfortunately
2021-02-16T02:39:46Z zdm: still cool, but prob not for me
2021-02-16T02:48:18Z polezaivsani: hm, i'll try asking technomancy how he does his parens next time he'll be around
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2021-02-16T04:22:32Z jgart: https://paste.debian.net/1185651/
2021-02-16T04:22:44Z jgart: does someone happen to know what the syntax error is here?
2021-02-16T04:22:49Z jgart: Any help is greatly appreciated
2021-02-16T04:26:41Z dieggsy: jgart: did you mean (define (ski se) ...)
2021-02-16T04:27:13Z dieggsy: you have the common lisp style function definition syntax the way it is now
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2021-02-16T05:25:54Z Zipheir: jgart: I'd suggest that you can also match the cdr of se and simplify things.
2021-02-16T05:29:10Z Zipheir: e.g. (match se (`(s ,x ,_ ,y) ...))
2021-02-16T05:33:31Z jgart: dieggsy: yes, that' correct here's the updated one https://paste.debian.net/1185652/
2021-02-16T05:34:34Z dieggsy: jgart: I second Zipheir motion heh
2021-02-16T05:35:30Z jgart: ohh ok to reduce the boiler plate
2021-02-16T05:36:09Z jgart: dieggsy Zipheir you show an example of Zipheir simplification?
2021-02-16T05:36:27Z jgart: s/you/could you/
2021-02-16T05:36:39Z jgart: that would be much appreciated
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2021-02-16T06:00:26Z Zipheir: jgart: For example, (match se ('(i) se) (`(i ,x) (ski `(,x))) ...)
2021-02-16T06:00:59Z Zipheir: And the last clause, which currently just uses the wildcard _:
2021-02-16T06:02:13Z Zipheir: Eh, I'm not going to write it all out, but you can use a pattern guard with matching to replace the (if (list? (car se)) ...) form.
2021-02-16T06:02:53Z Zipheir: jgart: Also, you have `null' instead of `null?'; that might be causing an error.
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2021-02-16T06:08:34Z Zipheir: OK, I think this is right: (((? list? xs) . rest) (ski `(,(ski xs) ,@rest)))   (_ se) ; last clause
2021-02-16T06:09:11Z Zipheir: The unusual indentation of the if expression threw me off a bit.
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2021-02-16T06:45:50Z jgart: Zipheir: thanks! for the examples above. I started porting/translating the above code from this random snippet I found https://github.com/revence27/SKI-Calculus/blob/master/ski.lisp
2021-02-16T06:47:09Z jgart: I don't think I understand the ski-calculus yet. I just learned about it today. Back to the drawing board...
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2021-02-16T12:24:54Z siraben: jgart: nice, the SKI calculus is beautiful
2021-02-16T12:26:41Z siraben: the S and K combinators are actually 2/3 of the axioms of classical propositional logic
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2021-02-16T14:28:14Z ecraven: is there a scheme implementation that has a configurable pretty-printer?
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2021-02-16T14:47:03Z gwatt: ecraven: how configurable? Chez can adjust some of the stuff
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2021-02-16T14:58:29Z ecraven: special indentation for some forms, mainly
2021-02-16T14:58:41Z ecraven: for chez, it would be nice if it could be made to *not* escape everything as \x..;
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2021-02-16T14:59:07Z ecraven: I want to pretty-print non-Scheme code (Interlisp), just to make it more readable to me
2021-02-16T15:00:05Z gwatt: ecraven: some things can be prettified by toggling (print-extended-identifiers)
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2021-02-16T18:21:27Z amirouche: it is half way through the short february, and the irc logs are almost as big as january, it missing 20% 1M vs. 0.8M
2021-02-16T18:22:38Z amirouche: please debate!
2021-02-16T18:22:40Z amirouche: ;)
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2021-02-16T18:23:28Z amirouche: rudybot: what about pattern calculus?
2021-02-16T18:23:33Z rudybot: amirouche: it's directly related to scheme, it's about pattern matching. Has anyone experience with pattern calculus and rho-calculus (there is an implementation called iRho in bigloo)
2021-02-16T18:23:44Z amirouche hides
2021-02-16T18:24:05Z amirouche: that probably me that asked that question
2021-02-16T18:24:25Z amirouche: while I was investigating datalog.
2021-02-16T18:25:36Z Zipheir: amirouche: We could fix that by pasting the Chez source into the IRC client. :)
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2021-02-16T18:28:23Z amirouche: oh yes
2021-02-16T18:28:32Z Zipheir: amirouche: Do you have any sources for rho calculus?  WP has very little.
2021-02-16T18:28:47Z amirouche: Zipheir: no :/
2021-02-16T18:29:08Z amirouche: If I investigate again, I will let you know.
2021-02-16T18:29:23Z amirouche: I need to re-read the original datalog paper anyway.
2021-02-16T18:30:10Z amirouche: There is this project at google called zanzibar on top the Google Spanner (OKVS)
2021-02-16T18:30:28Z amirouche: they claim in the related paper to use datalog.
2021-02-16T18:31:16Z amirouche: While reading that paper, it strike me that I do not learn much from reading a couple of "random" papers.
2021-02-16T18:32:09Z amirouche: I may have read 20 or 30 papers, I only remember the content about MVCC by Bernstein.
2021-02-16T18:32:10Z Zipheir: Once in a while, you find a really good paper that pulls everything together.
2021-02-16T18:32:22Z Zipheir: But otherwise you've got to put together the pieces yourself.
2021-02-16T18:32:22Z amirouche: maybe.
2021-02-16T18:33:08Z amirouche: yes. I think the problem I complain about is that a single paper, is not a course.
2021-02-16T18:33:26Z amirouche: the paper makes sense for a given audiance already well versed in the subject.
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2021-02-16T18:35:04Z amirouche: maybe I will mention again zanzibar paper, but first easier take on map-reduce:
2021-02-16T18:35:05Z amirouche: https://research.google.com/archive/mapreduce-osdi04-slides/index-auto-0003.html
2021-02-16T18:35:06Z Zipheir: Somewhat related: sytse linked me a lecture on academic writing which I think sums up what papers/articles/posts that I remember do well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM
2021-02-16T18:35:18Z amirouche: Zipheir: tx
2021-02-16T18:35:35Z amirouche: in that map-reduce slide and the following and the whole presentation (those are slides. ok.)
2021-02-16T18:36:24Z amirouche: I do not know in what dimension the pseudo the next slide, is easier to read or has more value than: (for-each reducer (map mapper lst))
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2021-02-16T18:37:14Z amirouche: luckily, they mention it is inspired from lisp, hence some one curious might dive and find something eaier to the mind.
2021-02-16T18:38:26Z Zipheir: A language with only restricted versions of map and fold?
2021-02-16T18:39:10Z Zipheir: Steele said that Fortress was going to have a similar model, although I believe that project was cancelled.
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2021-02-16T18:40:17Z amirouche: sure they are not familiar with fold and map, that does not explain why the arguments of those functions are "contrived" except if you consider static typing.
2021-02-16T18:41:24Z amirouche: (now I remember, in engineering school, we learned programming with pseudo code without static typing, I my own xp before that is dynamic typing)
2021-02-16T18:42:31Z amirouche: the explanation of map-reduce without typing information, is "you take n something, you process them in parallel, it produce n values, that you reduce again in parallel"
2021-02-16T18:42:32Z Zipheir: Actually, I guess that what they call 'reduce' is more like folding only the subset of pairs with a given key.
2021-02-16T18:43:26Z Zipheir: amirouche: Except that the 'parallel' part doesn't actually tell you anything.
2021-02-16T18:43:53Z amirouche: the key thing is not necessary (imo) to understand map-reduce, the key both in the reducer (that is a fold) and the mapper, might be their to help dispatch to the correct reducer / mapper actual function.
2021-02-16T18:43:54Z Zipheir: Presumably, there are no side-effects.
2021-02-16T18:44:19Z amirouche: reduce is fold IIUC, the name reduce was taken from Python IIUC.
2021-02-16T18:45:17Z amirouche: I mean Python call reduce what Scheme call fold.
2021-02-16T18:45:46Z Zipheir: Right.
2021-02-16T18:46:10Z Zipheir: I wonder whether `reduce' is a right or a left fold...
2021-02-16T18:46:34Z amirouche: IIRC, python reduce is left-to-right.
2021-02-16T18:47:14Z amirouche: fwiw, reduce function was builtin cpython default environment until 3.x where it was hidden inside functools.
2021-02-16T18:47:37Z iv4nshm4k0v: JFTR, 'reduce' was the name of the operation in APL.  (And there also was lesser known, Scheme-wise, scan.)
2021-02-16T18:47:52Z amirouche: except, you can not reduce with a simple syntax >_< unlike map, filter that can be done with list comprehension.
2021-02-16T18:48:17Z amirouche: (also they kept map inside the builtins >_<)
2021-02-16T18:48:22Z Zipheir: It seems to be a left fold, although that's just reasoning from the "rough equivalent" definition.
2021-02-16T18:48:46Z Zipheir: iv4nshm4k0v: That makes sense.
2021-02-16T18:49:36Z amirouche: The slide 4 of map-reduce, describe that the mapper may produce multiple values like a generator, but IDK if that qualify as side-effect.
2021-02-16T18:49:39Z Zipheir: Python's reduce also behaves like a non-empty-sequence fold, if the nil value is Nothing.
2021-02-16T18:49:40Z amirouche: https://research.google.com/archive/mapreduce-osdi04-slides/index-auto-0004.html
2021-02-16T18:51:05Z Zipheir: amirouche: I don't understand why so much syntax is needed. "for each word", "EmitIntermediate".
2021-02-16T18:51:39Z amirouche: that is mix of python 2 and java
2021-02-16T18:51:42Z amirouche: old java.
2021-02-16T18:52:31Z amirouche: it was 2004: https://research.google/pubs/pub62/
2021-02-16T18:52:33Z Zipheir: Part of the idea of using a map-like function is that you don't need explicit iteration constructs like "for each", I'm thinking.
2021-02-16T18:53:13Z amirouche: I like your idea, but then you would need to spawn map-reduce job from the mapper
2021-02-16T18:53:59Z amirouche: hmm..
2021-02-16T18:54:11Z amirouche: it is not worth it to spawn a map-reduce over the body of some text.
2021-02-16T18:54:29Z amirouche: since the whole computation can happen in a single core.
2021-02-16T18:55:05Z Zipheir: Oh, OK, this is a language embedded within Java.
2021-02-16T18:55:14Z amirouche: map-reduce is used for things like: for index in range(2**32): document = documents[index]; out = mapper(document)
2021-02-16T18:55:24Z amirouche: the number of iteration must be large.
2021-02-16T18:56:11Z amirouche: here is how I re-discovered map-reduce: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Parallel-Forms.html#index-n_002dfor_002deach_002dpar_002dmap
2021-02-16T18:56:12Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/X5jB4nz9P1
2021-02-16T18:57:08Z amirouche: it is a parallel form, python 3.x has a similar contruct called multiprocess.Pool.
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2021-02-16T18:59:14Z amirouche: the difference between google map-reduce and n-for-each-par-map implementation in guile, is that map-reduce is a fold and the fold may happen in parallel too.
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2021-02-16T19:00:13Z amirouche: a better might be fold-map
2021-02-16T19:00:27Z amirouche: or even n-par-fold-par-map
2021-02-16T19:00:53Z Zipheir: amirouche: the great quux https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Thinking-Parallel-Programming/
2021-02-16T19:01:36Z Zipheir: or "How to think about parallel programming: Do not think about parallel programming"
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2021-02-16T19:51:16Z amirouche: Zipheir: tx!
2021-02-16T19:52:30Z Zipheir: amirouche: yw
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2021-02-16T20:00:51Z siraben: amirouche: that description of map-reduce only holds if you have a monoid homomorphism (which likely entails being side-effect free)
2021-02-16T20:01:20Z siraben: but yeah it's more or less descriptive
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2021-02-16T20:11:48Z amirouche: in the case of the search engine, the mapper will score a document according to a query, and the reducer will sort and paginate.
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2021-02-16T20:12:29Z amirouche: anyway, that is 20 year old algo.
2021-02-16T20:12:44Z amirouche: (at least)
2021-02-16T20:14:02Z amirouche: the mapper can be side-effect free, the reducer when it keeps only the first 10 or so results can be done side-effect free for sure
2021-02-16T20:14:38Z amirouche: so far, I did not dive into pagination without side-effects.
2021-02-16T20:15:16Z amirouche: maybe using somekind of histogram (tx jcowan!) it is possible to gather the nth page without having to keep in memory all the previous results and score.
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2021-02-16T20:18:33Z Zipheir: amirouche: If the scored pages are conceptually a stream, then couldn't you just use a `group' operation to break that stream into n-lists?
2021-02-16T20:19:45Z amirouche: yes the scored pages are a stream, but are not sorted.
2021-02-16T20:20:33Z Zipheir: Ah.
2021-02-16T20:22:01Z amirouche: btw, I very sure that google does not map-reduce over the whold www at each query, without counting first couple of pages caching.
2021-02-16T20:22:23Z amirouche: they have multiple indices per region and languages
2021-02-16T20:23:51Z amirouche: I mean they certainly cache a couple a page of results per query, but those results do not come from a complete www index.
2021-02-16T20:24:55Z amirouche: they use the divide-and-conquer strategy.
2021-02-16T20:25:52Z amirouche: another way to say, is they shard the www into multiple database per-language and culture
2021-02-16T20:26:10Z amirouche: and they indices are near the associated region.
2021-02-16T20:26:21Z amirouche: geographically.
2021-02-16T20:27:22Z amirouche: so, google is most likely a technically federated search engine.
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2021-02-16T20:27:56Z amirouche: (that is unrelated to mutli-region redundancy)
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2021-02-16T20:30:36Z amirouche: I used to have only results in english, last few month and couple of years, I get mix of english and french even when I query in english (and the french results are not interesting, outside the same wikipedia page in french (that is translate from english ;))
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2021-02-16T20:33:19Z amirouche: and that, french wikipedia, is a clue that results are editorialized by humans, since AFAIK there is nobody writing in french www about say 'beam search'
2021-02-16T20:34:56Z Zipheir: Google results have become pretty unpredictable in the past 5 years.
2021-02-16T20:35:04Z amirouche: for that very example, if typed `beam search` and the top most section, is a "optimized extract" from the french wikipedia. All other actual results are in english!
2021-02-16T20:35:48Z amirouche: sometime the french article, is interwind with the other results.
2021-02-16T20:35:49Z Zipheir: Weird.
2021-02-16T20:36:21Z amirouche: I have a story!
2021-02-16T20:36:43Z amirouche: one day, it happens I went on holiday... (home hacking with Scheme)
2021-02-16T20:36:49Z Zipheir: I really liked the days of PageRank Google, when adding keywords would refine the search.  Now, it seems, the results are skewed toward the most popular keyword you've entered.
2021-02-16T20:37:36Z amirouche: anyway, my collegue need to do some WebSocket stuff with a framework, I was experiement at 6 month or one year before, I made a gist in github.
2021-02-16T20:38:03Z amirouche: 1) github gist do not show up often in google 2) my gist has zero popularity (no star, no comment)
2021-02-16T20:38:21Z amirouche: and it was the top 3 result on several of my collegues search!
2021-02-16T20:38:37Z amirouche: so they waited until I cam back to do the thing x)
2021-02-16T20:39:12Z amirouche: I asked other people in python IRC channel to do the same query, it did not show up..
2021-02-16T20:39:30Z amirouche: even people in france did not get the same result.
2021-02-16T20:39:40Z amirouche: Google forced us to work as team :)
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2021-02-16T20:41:15Z Zipheir: How odd.
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2021-02-16T20:44:56Z amirouche: here is an example with mixed english and french https://imgur.com/znQR4iK
2021-02-16T20:45:03Z amirouche: I am logged in to google.
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2021-02-16T21:00:05Z amirouche: sorry, the fact that french and english is mixed in results is prolly due to the fact that the french instance of the index also has english content.
2021-02-16T21:00:37Z amirouche: The clue for editorialized page result is something else
2021-02-16T21:01:12Z amirouche: anyway, the fact that wikpedia shows up all the time, even for rare pages, is a clue the algorithm is biased.
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2021-02-16T21:02:18Z amirouche: the reason I think it is editorialezed, is because if I query my firstname in duckduckgo I appear in the first page, whereas in google is beyond the third
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2021-02-16T21:02:49Z amirouche: so, my theory, is duckduckgo results query logic is more simple.
2021-02-16T21:03:18Z amirouche: and not editorialized via algorithm done by humans.
2021-02-16T21:04:28Z amirouche: Google results are related to the most common topic associated to my firstname in france. So, they rely on entity-linking.
2021-02-16T21:05:49Z amirouche: Google guess or assume that the query with single word 'amirouche' is related the the most well known amirouche in France history.
2021-02-16T21:08:18Z amirouche: also, sometime, when they are not sure, there is a box on the right that allow the user to select the another topic with the same surface text
2021-02-16T21:08:56Z amirouche: topic = entity in the sens of wikidata
2021-02-16T21:09:33Z amirouche: like Scheme (the programming language), or scheme (the noun)
2021-02-16T21:09:53Z amirouche: sadly, google did not figure there is Scheme topic that is not ponzi scheme
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2021-02-17T08:04:35Z amirouche: Zipheir: Guy L. Steele talk is very interesting, thanks for sharing (https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Thinking-Parallel-Programming/)
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2021-02-17T08:10:34Z amirouche: I especially like the idea "know you invariants". I mean, I got a similar thought. Regarding automating (!) parallelism, similar to what GC does for memory, it seems to me Scheme would be missing some (typing?) information to be able to that on its own.
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2021-02-17T13:12:39Z ecraven: do pretty-printers in the various implementations fully parse and analyse a form? for example, is (if foo bar baz) pretty-printed differently if `if' is bound to the default syntax rather than some local binding?
2021-02-17T13:12:48Z ecraven: or do they just check for certain symbols and act on that?
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2021-02-17T13:16:49Z mangol: they probably don't check the bindings. you could have (pprint expr environment) similar to (eval expr environment)
2021-02-17T13:17:09Z mangol: and attach indentation rules as metadata to macros
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2021-02-17T14:26:58Z ecraven: hm.. I like the way
2021-02-17T14:27:18Z ecraven: Interlisp did comments ;)   (* everything inside this form is a comment)
2021-02-17T14:27:32Z ecraven: so you could *keep* comments even through pretty-printing and other code transformations
2021-02-17T14:27:50Z ecraven: that exact form is not ideal, of course, but (**comment** ...) or something like it would be nice
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2021-02-17T15:57:21Z gwatt: How many schemes support #;(any old expression) comments?
2021-02-17T15:58:05Z ecraven: some do, but that's still different, as they aren't actually kept around, but just ignored by the reader
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2021-02-17T16:01:17Z mdhughes_: But not many Schemes keep the source of a procedure in any useful way. You can maybe (read) the source file and then pprint it.
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2021-02-17T17:47:05Z ecraven: many Schemes actually keep the sources around in some way
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2021-02-17T17:54:57Z mdhughes: Which? Most only print #<procedure> or sometimes #<procedure foo>
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2021-02-17T17:59:13Z gwatt: mdhughes: I think Chez actually does, but you need to use some secret procedurse to get at the source
2021-02-17T18:00:09Z ecraven: ah, they *print* only that, but if you know how, you can access the source ;)
2021-02-17T18:00:28Z mdhughes: And the debugger only shows the function calls, not the indentation and comments.
2021-02-17T18:00:33Z ecraven: gwatt: (inspect/object my-function)
2021-02-17T18:00:56Z ecraven: that returns foo, you can call (foo 'type) and (foo 'value)
2021-02-17T18:01:41Z ecraven: I don't understand why sources are not kept around, they wouldn't take much space, would they? in the typical non-embedded usage...
2021-02-17T18:01:51Z mdhughes: > (i 'value)
2021-02-17T18:01:51Z mdhughes: #<procedure foo>
2021-02-17T18:02:14Z ecraven: ((foo 'code) 'source)
2021-02-17T18:02:22Z gwatt: mdhughes: You need ((((inspect/object foo) 'code) 'source) 'value)
2021-02-17T18:02:27Z ecraven: yea, that one ;)
2021-02-17T18:02:44Z mdhughes: OK, that finally got there.
2021-02-17T18:02:52Z ecraven: and it only works if (eq? 'procedure (o 'type)), and only if ((o 'code) 'source) does actually return an object, not #f
2021-02-17T18:03:02Z gwatt: also true
2021-02-17T18:03:52Z ecraven: mdhughes: if you look in r7rs-swank/specific/... you can see how the procedure parameter lists are accessed, it works for most of those schemes.
2021-02-17T18:03:59Z ecraven: I should go back and try all the different schemes for that...
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2021-02-17T18:19:45Z amirouche1: “to re-imagine and re-engineer the internet for the third millenium and beyond”
2021-02-17T18:19:55Z amirouche1: ^^ seems impossible engouh ^^
2021-02-17T18:20:02Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche
2021-02-17T18:22:19Z amirouche: that. is. incredible.
2021-02-17T18:22:54Z amirouche: My search engine project was green lighted by the european orgnization called ngi.
2021-02-17T18:23:09Z amirouche: The further I read about that orgnanization, the further I am amazed.
2021-02-17T18:23:40Z amirouche: https://nlnet.nl/thema/NGIZeroDiscovery.html
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2021-02-17T18:29:30Z Zipheir: amirouche: Cool.
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2021-02-17T18:34:10Z mangol: amirouche: congratulations!
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2021-02-17T18:34:54Z amirouche: tx!
2021-02-17T18:35:11Z mangol: are you getting a stipend to work on it across the year?
2021-02-17T18:35:16Z amirouche: I am reading the steps toward actually getting paid to work on the project.
2021-02-17T18:35:40Z amirouche: the above quote comes a document send in private document
2021-02-17T18:35:52Z amirouche: tx!
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2021-02-17T19:04:41Z hendursaga: amirouche: What's your project now?
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2021-02-17T19:13:58Z amirouche: the search engine i guess
2021-02-17T19:14:20Z amirouche: right now the project is mostly bit rotted parentheses
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2021-02-17T19:18:36Z amirouche: mangol: I do not how it will pan out yet, I need to figure what I will do with $WORK.
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2021-02-17T19:37:12Z polezaivsani: skimmed through that disco application list, the kazarma entry - doesn't sound very ngi'ish - it means barracks in russian (coming via polish, via german, i guess being recognizable as such in both)
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2021-02-17T20:02:36Z amirouche: polezaivsani: that is an odd name for a bridge.
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2021-02-18T09:53:14Z ecraven: ;)
2021-02-18T10:06:54Z dpk: i'm reviewing Scheme macro systems and note that M N-W is working on a master SRFI of all of them (211, see https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/mnieper/srfi-211/blob/master/srfi-211.html for his latest progress, though it seems to have stalled lately)
2021-02-18T10:07:28Z dpk: he recommends the R4RS low-level macro facility as a lingua franca (beyond, of course, syntax-rules, which RnRS has required for donkey's years)
2021-02-18T10:07:37Z dpk: does any modern Scheme actually implement that system?
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2021-02-18T10:46:44Z amirouche: dpk: did you look at https://gitlab.com/nieper/unsyntax/ ?
2021-02-18T10:47:10Z amirouche: does lingua-franca means low-level macro system ?
2021-02-18T10:47:55Z dpk: lingua franca as in, a system that lots of different Scheme implementations would understand, even if it isn't the ideal one in a particular case
2021-02-18T10:48:30Z dpk: > Implementers are highly encouraged to provide an implementation of the low-level macro facility (srfi 211 low-level), which can serve as a foundation for syntax-rules and as a common denominator between the different Scheme implementations.
2021-02-18T10:50:38Z amirouche: interesting, I need to go afk.
2021-02-18T10:59:32Z dpk: i hadn't seen unsyntax, thanks
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2021-02-18T18:49:12Z mangol_: for mac there is now a homebrew tap https://github.com/lassik/homebrew-scheme for stuff that isn't (yet) accepted into homebrew-core
2021-02-18T18:49:40Z mangol_: currently we have Akku and a handful of scheme / scheme-ish lisp implementations
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2021-02-18T22:51:45Z Riastradh: jcowan: (rationalize->exact x e) on a flonum x should allow the error e to be optional, and, if e is omitted, should return the simplest rational number that rounds to x.
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2021-02-18T23:48:27Z Riastradh: (or there should be some other procedure that does the same, don't really care what it's called)
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2021-02-18T23:49:45Z Riastradh: (that is, fine to have (rationalize->exact x e) and (rationalize-inexact x) or something instead of just (rationalize->exact x [e]); point is to get the best rational approximation that rounds to a given inexact number)
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2021-02-19T11:52:49Z raingloom: what's the idiomatic way to generate sexps with unquotes in them? specifically of this form: (("prefix-a" ,prefix-a) ("prefix-b" ,prefix-b))
2021-02-19T11:52:59Z raingloom: (so, input lists in Guix)
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2021-02-19T11:54:08Z raingloom: i can't figure out any way to combine quasiquote and unquote so that the unquote remains in the pretty-print output but the (string-append "prefix-" name) is unquoted.
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2021-02-19T12:11:15Z wasamasa: I'm not sure that's possible in every scheme
2021-02-19T12:11:24Z wasamasa: it's definitely not possible in every lisp
2021-02-19T12:11:40Z wasamasa: elisp for example rejects unquote outside of backquote
2021-02-19T12:11:53Z wasamasa: CHICKEN supports it and this is seen in the scsh-process egg
2021-02-19T12:12:01Z wasamasa: where you can just unquote in a macro invocation
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2021-02-19T12:20:20Z rudybot: la la la
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2021-02-19T12:24:40Z raingloom: wasamasa: guess i'll just use good old sed then :D
2021-02-19T12:24:53Z raingloom: i only have to generate this once after all
2021-02-19T12:25:12Z wasamasa: oh, you mean in your text editor
2021-02-19T12:28:10Z raingloom: wasamasa: well, i know Guix does it in the various `guix import` modules, but I was hoping to not have to track down where exactly.
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2021-02-19T22:58:40Z Riastradh: `((,(string-append "prefix-" x) ,(list 'unquote (string->symbol (string-append "prefix-" x)))))
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2021-02-19T23:11:58Z jcowan returns to IRC
2021-02-19T23:12:24Z jcowan: amirouche: I pretty much zoom everything to 150%-175%; it makes it much easier for these old eyes to read
2021-02-19T23:15:19Z Zipheir: wb!  It's been pretty quiet.
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2021-02-19T23:16:32Z jcowan: mdhughes: It's not that nobody implemented M-expressions, it's that nobody liked them and they were abandoned.  That cycle repeated several times.
2021-02-19T23:19:29Z jcowan: Chainging the lexical syntax ov Lisp is like chainging the spelling ov Inglish: it wood be a lot easier to read and even rite if yoo lerned it frum scratch, but everywun screams about how "ugly" it is.
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2021-02-19T23:22:48Z Zipheir: The derivation is different, of course, but you could see the ML family as long-lost descendents of Mexp LISP.
2021-02-19T23:25:50Z jcowan nods
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2021-02-19T23:26:31Z jcowan: Does anyone know a good way to round (ceiling, floor, truncate) an arbitrary fraction to a b-ary fraction (i.e. one whose denominator is a power of b)?
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2021-02-20T01:10:29Z dTal: jcowan: I think you at least need to specify a tolerance
2021-02-20T01:10:53Z dTal: ceiling, floor, truncate all count decimals for their tolerance metric
2021-02-20T01:12:05Z jcowan: You're right.
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2021-02-20T01:12:39Z jcowan: 5/7 could round to 7/10, 71/100, 714/1000, etc.
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2021-02-20T01:13:36Z jcowan: I guess the best thing in my context is to raise an exception if a fraction is not already decimal, so 2/5 is fine but 5/7 pukes.
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2021-02-20T01:15:13Z dTal: all I can think of is something like taking the log of the top and bottom?
2021-02-20T01:15:34Z dTal: (base your target b-ary)
2021-02-20T01:15:47Z dTal: then rounding that and exp-ing it back out
2021-02-20T01:17:20Z jcowan: (above remarks are base 10)
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2021-02-20T01:18:06Z dTal: oh, that's a bit boring :p
2021-02-20T01:19:57Z dTal: how do you define "decimal" there? 6/12 is perfectly valid
2021-02-20T01:22:47Z Riastradh: presumably `decimal' means `reduced denominator is a power of 10'
2021-02-20T01:23:18Z dTal: but the reduced denominator of 6/12 is 2
2021-02-20T01:23:23Z dTal: that's not a power of ten
2021-02-20T01:23:41Z dTal: but it can be represented as 5/10
2021-02-20T01:25:14Z Riastradh: s/reduced/exists/1, roughly
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2021-02-20T02:05:50Z dTal: (define (roundfrac frac base) (let* ((d (denominator frac)) (newd (expt base (round (log d base)))) (ratio (/ newd d)
2021-02-20T02:05:50Z dTal: ) (newn (round (* (numerator frac) ratio)))) (/ (inexact->exact newn) (inexact->exact newd))))
2021-02-20T02:06:24Z dTal: oops, a linebreak?
2021-02-20T02:06:27Z dTal: (define (roundfrac frac base) (let* ((d (denominator frac)) (newd (expt base (round (log d base)))) (ratio (/ newd d)) (newn (round (* (numerator frac) ratio)))) (/ (inexact->exact newn) (inexact->exact newd))))
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2021-02-20T02:06:57Z dTal: so that is my attempt to fill the brief of " a good way to round (ceiling, floor, truncate) an arbitrary fraction to a b-ary fraction (i.e. one whose denominator is a power of b)"
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2021-02-20T05:31:46Z mdhughes: Of course, you could just work in fixed-point (integers) and convert to float by (x>>16) & 0xFFFF "." (x & 0xFFFF) / 0xFFFF
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2021-02-20T09:31:04Z amirouche: english question: is there an alternative wording for "divide and conquer algorithm"
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2021-02-20T09:32:44Z amirouche: oops, in fact my algorithm is not a 'divide and conquer' according to wikipedia entry
2021-02-20T09:33:52Z foof: master theorem applicable? :)
2021-02-20T09:37:04Z amirouche: TIL
2021-02-20T09:37:44Z amirouche: my algorithm is not recursive: it will narrow the search space, and then refine the results with a precise scoring.
2021-02-20T09:38:32Z amirouche: the end result may or may not be an approximation (I have two algorithms, one is an approximation, the other is exact)
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2021-02-20T15:52:55Z dpk: amirouche: sounds like an heuristic algorithm, perhaps?
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2021-02-20T16:10:15Z amirouche:  my first thought was "divive and conquer" but the algorithm is not recursive
2021-02-20T16:10:27Z amirouche: dpk: what is an 'heuristic algorithm' ?
2021-02-20T16:12:37Z dpk: an heuristic is an initial guess, basically
2021-02-20T16:13:34Z amirouche: ok.
2021-02-20T16:13:42Z amirouche: ty
2021-02-20T16:13:52Z dpk: an example (maybe not the best, but the first place i heard the term) is A* pathfinding, which improves on Dijkstra's algorithm by adding an heuristic
2021-02-20T16:14:07Z amirouche: yeah, it is similar to that.
2021-02-20T16:14:41Z dpk: if we're trying to find a route from A to B, where B is north of A, it doesn't often make sense to consider options that involve travelling south before any others
2021-02-20T16:15:32Z dpk: so A* basically uses a direction heuristic to look in the direction you actually want to travel first, whereas Dijkstra's expands out in all directions as if any of them are equally likely
2021-02-20T16:16:09Z dpk: it's a broad term, though
2021-02-20T16:17:06Z dpk: another example is a bit-fiddling trick you can do with floating point numbers (the details of which momentarily escape me) to find a good starting point for the square root
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2021-02-20T16:17:31Z dpk: and then do a few iterations of Newton's algorithm (as in the first chapter of SICP) to perfect it
2021-02-20T16:18:56Z dpk: ah yes, 0x5f3759df - ( i >> 1 ), discovered by wizards from id Software. (actually inverse square root, not square root directly)
2021-02-20T16:44:00Z Riastradh: amirouche: a heuristic is a method or hint that tends to work well in practice but isn't necessarily optimal or theoretically justified
2021-02-20T16:51:50Z Zipheir: wizards of Id?
2021-02-20T16:53:11Z Riastradh: as opposed to wizards of Oz, of course
2021-02-20T16:53:40Z Riastradh: (which, along with the wicked witch of the west and the good witch of the east, make the four compass directions of Freudian psychoanalysis)
2021-02-20T16:55:31Z Zipheir: Oy veh.
2021-02-20T16:55:51Z mdhughes: Monsters from the id, Dr Morbius.
2021-02-20T16:57:06Z Riastradh: There is a surprisingly decent Wikipedia article on the subject, including caveats about the technique's irrelevance in modern computing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root
2021-02-20T16:59:21Z Riastradh: (On modern CPUs, there is a severe penalty to sending data between the integer and fp units, much worse than just using the native approximate-reciprocal-sqrt instructions.)
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2021-02-20T17:17:11Z ex_nihilo: Riastradh: that's a pretty nice Wikipedia article
2021-02-20T17:19:08Z jcowan: I would say almost all WP articles I read are decent.
2021-02-20T17:21:16Z Riastradh: I would say almost all Wikipedia articles in my areas of expertise which I didn't write are pretty lousy, and the ones I have no clue about look decent, because of Gell-Mann amnesia.
2021-02-20T17:22:05Z jcowan: (except the math articles, which GROSSLY violate WP policy by being unintelligible to the educated lay person
2021-02-20T17:22:25Z jcowan: Riastradh: I'd say that's true of all texts whatsoever
2021-02-20T17:23:21Z jcowan: so it's a bias that I simply discount when making judgments like this
2021-02-20T17:25:18Z Riastradh: Yes but I'm talking about the math and cryptography articles.
2021-02-20T17:26:21Z Riastradh: Hence I am surprised to find this one is quite decent!
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2021-02-20T17:28:29Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, I'd say that's quite an accurate statement about the math articles.
2021-02-20T17:29:31Z Zipheir: (Worse, being so unintelligible, they're probably full of mistakes that only a small number of readers could even detect.)
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2021-02-20T18:32:22Z dpk: WP's maths content has always been like that, alas
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2021-02-20T21:54:33Z amirouche: That talk about writing is interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIzMaLkCaM (via Zipheir)
2021-02-20T21:54:37Z amirouche: know you readers :)
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2021-02-20T22:16:41Z Zipheir: amirouche: I'm glad to hear you watched it.  I found it pretty intense, surprisingly.
2021-02-20T22:18:15Z amirouche: the teacher is intense.
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2021-02-20T22:30:52Z jcowan: I don't intend to spend 80 precious remaining minutes watching that, except to wonder why, if he knows how to write effectively, he is not writing bestsellers for far more money.
2021-02-20T22:36:51Z Zipheir: As he says, his focus is on academic writing.
2021-02-20T22:38:32Z amirouche: the summary is know the audiance and their codes, also read their papers, explain they are wrong and have a problem that you solved.
2021-02-20T22:39:24Z amirouche: in particular, do not write for yourself.
2021-02-20T22:39:30Z Zipheir: And, hardest of all, do work that's valuable to the community.
2021-02-20T22:40:08Z jcowan: Okay, if that's a fair summary, I agree.
2021-02-20T22:41:05Z jcowan: "Explain they were wrong" has the problem that people will write something that contradicts well-established facts merely to take advantage of this
2021-02-20T22:41:13Z jcowan: Own opinions, not own facts, etc.
2021-02-20T22:41:56Z Zipheir: I'd summarize the point as "create tension and show that you're presenting a valuable way to resolve that tension".
2021-02-20T22:42:31Z Zipheir: He presents many examples of "background" introductions which provide a foundation for the author's ideas, but no compelling reason to keep reading.
2021-02-20T22:43:48Z jcowan: but alas that has a higher reward than "Sin-ina-mati's theory about Indo-European rulers of the Mitanni is perfectly correct and here's the clinching evidence for it."  Much better to write "Sin-in-amati is an <epithet> who is full of <epithet> and this is my new, improved theory of why."
2021-02-20T22:44:14Z jcowan: s/of why/of what she's talking about
2021-02-20T22:44:28Z Zipheir: I was re-reading Wadler's "Monads for FP" paper recently in light of that writing lecture, and I noticed how well that paper does it.  "Everything has to be explicitly passed in functional programming--and this creates a mess.  Let's see how we can attack this."
2021-02-20T22:44:34Z jcowan: namely that the ruling class in Mitanni were not IE but Melanesian
2021-02-20T22:45:42Z jcowan: or possibly Alien Space Bats
2021-02-20T22:47:01Z Zipheir: :)  IIRC, the example of "telling them they're wrong" that McEnerney gives is "damn, you guys are really, really smart and you've gotten us so far!  But there's this tiny thing..."
2021-02-20T22:48:38Z jcowan: "There is a little rift within the lute / That by and by will make the music mute."
2021-02-20T22:50:45Z Zipheir: Anyway, one of the things that I found pretty powerful in that lecture was his observation that (academic) writing is taught in a context of (paid) teachers testing students on what they know.  And that this is *terrible* preparation for writing things (unpaid) readers will want to read.
2021-02-20T22:53:58Z Zipheir: (The reader is assumed to be interested enough to read the whole thing, and the main goal is to show your understanding of the topic, preferably in longer terms than shorter.)
2021-02-20T22:54:16Z Zipheir: It describes so many papers.
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2021-02-20T23:09:02Z Zipheir: Or, at least, it describes a pattern of education that might lead to the kind of writing typical of papers by established academics.
2021-02-20T23:09:51Z amirouche: +1
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2021-02-21T01:38:11Z dieggsy: if i have a procedure with signature (random n) that returns a random integer, how do i get an integer between -3 and 3, exclusive
2021-02-21T01:38:53Z dieggsy: i was doing (- (random 6) 3) for example, but that makes  the interval [-3,3), and i want (-3,3)
2021-02-21T01:39:45Z dieggsy: ....or am i being dumb
2021-02-21T01:41:15Z dieggsy: no yeah
2021-02-21T01:41:53Z fizzie: I mean, kind of. If you want -3 to 3 exclusive, that's -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 exhaustive. That's 5 separate numbers, so do (random 5). That gives you 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, which you can transform into -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 by subtracting 2.
2021-02-21T01:44:27Z dieggsy: fizzie: nailed it. thank you
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2021-02-21T04:26:51Z lisbeths: someone told me lambda calculus can have actual arrrays with o of 1 lookup
2021-02-21T04:27:17Z lisbeths: they said "thats one beta reduction"
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2021-02-21T05:24:37Z lisbeths: i guess im asking if that is true because I was unaware the lambda calculus could do o of 1 array lookups
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2021-02-21T09:04:22Z amirouche1: Zipheir: re course on teaching writing: I regain confidence in the academics.
2021-02-21T09:05:50Z amirouche1: Even if their methodology of writing goes against some basic principles, but that is because the world is bizarre.
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2021-02-21T09:15:03Z amirouche: The world seem bizarre to me because I was teached wrong basic principes.
2021-02-21T09:15:45Z amirouche: Also for the record I was not good at writing at school (french, philosophy, even biology)
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2021-02-21T17:09:43Z amirouche: what I said about the origin of the word 'merci' in french is not stupid, reality is worse https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/merci#Etymology_5
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2021-02-21T18:29:37Z mdhughes: I'm'a start responding to all good deeds with "pay me" now!
2021-02-21T18:34:28Z Zipheir: "Pay me now!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7t4gmNYO-8
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2021-02-21T18:49:19Z mdhughes: More of a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
2021-02-21T18:50:43Z Zipheir: Oh, funny, I heard something about Harlan Ellison's issues with Star Trek recently.
2021-02-21T18:50:55Z Zipheir: He has ... strong opinions.
2021-02-21T18:51:17Z mdhughes: He was the best. Also very difficult, which, you know, is a familiar sensation.
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2021-02-21T18:54:01Z Zipheir: "Harlan Ellison says he doesn't write SF stories, he writes Harlan Ellison stories.  Which is a tautology.  The conclusion is implied by the premise." (Philip K. Dick)
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2021-02-21T20:56:45Z jcowan: Zipheir: It means he resists labeling, something I have every sympathy with.
2021-02-21T20:57:06Z jcowan: particularly in an industry that always wants you to do exactly what you did before only bigger.
2021-02-21T20:58:44Z jcowan: The world's first agnostic explains his view to a neighbor, and the neighbor says, "Now let me get this straight.  Do you worship God or the Devil?"
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2021-02-21T21:26:15Z mdhughes: That's why I wrote my "atheist creed" so I can stop that argument at zero: "There ain't no gods or devils, heaven or hell. All religions are lies made up by priests to take your money and control you."
2021-02-21T21:26:27Z mdhughes: And still sometimes I get "but are you a Baptist atheist or Mormon atheist?"
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2021-02-21T21:50:43Z Zipheir: "Sorry, Mr. Sartre, we're all out of no milk.  Would you like your coffee with no cream?"
2021-02-21T21:51:33Z Zipheir: jcowan: I'm sure PKD knew what Ellison meant, given that he also struggled to get out from under the SF label.
2021-02-21T21:53:33Z jcowan: One evening in Northern Ireland during the Irish Troubles:  "Are you a Protestant or a Catholic?"  "I'm a tourist!"  "Very well, are you a Catholic tourist or a Protestant tourist?"  "I'm a Jew!  I'm a Jew!"  "Ahhhh.  And I am the luckiest Arab in Belfast."
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2021-02-22T00:52:11Z ZombieChicken: always fun to stumble into these kinds of discussions
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2021-02-22T13:16:46Z ftq: hi
2021-02-22T13:17:26Z lockywolf: ehlo
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2021-02-22T14:24:27Z lockywolf: with the "new" srfi 170, is it possible to run other programs from Scheme?
2021-02-22T14:24:46Z lockywolf: like (system "ls")
2021-02-22T14:26:32Z ecraven: lockywolf: doesn't seem like it, there's nothing in there to start sub-processes, or did I overlook that?
2021-02-22T14:26:50Z lockywolf: hm...
2021-02-22T14:27:04Z ecraven: explicitly excluded: 'Everything to do with the creation and management of subprocesses and communication with them. The low-level POSIX operations are tricky to use, and a future SRFI will provide a higher-level interface.'
2021-02-22T14:27:14Z lockywolf: so there is still no portable way to call a program from Scheme?
2021-02-22T14:27:25Z lockywolf: scsh was, like, "as shell"
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2021-02-22T14:36:20Z lockywolf: and s48 doesn't compile on x86_64
2021-02-22T14:38:51Z lockywolf: https://paste.debian.net/1186427/ LOOOL
2021-02-22T14:39:44Z lockywolf: this ranks #2 in my "dirty tricks hall of fame"
2021-02-22T14:40:04Z ecraven: hehe, what's #1 ;)
2021-02-22T14:41:28Z lockywolf: still empty :)
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2021-02-22T14:53:31Z lockywolf: and 0.7 fails at make install time :)
2021-02-22T14:53:39Z lockywolf: I'm truly impressed
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2021-02-22T15:21:50Z taw10: Conjure (https://github.com/Olical/conjure) now has a Guile client, if anyone is interested in trying it out, check out branch "develop" from the repo
2021-02-22T15:22:20Z taw10: (whoops, that was actually a mis-type - hit up+enter in the wrong terminal - but maybe it's useful to someone!)
2021-02-22T15:24:20Z mdhughes: In practice most Schemes have (system)
2021-02-22T15:24:56Z mdhughes: And if not, it'd be the most trivial C FFI function.
2021-02-22T15:25:26Z Oxyd: If a Scheme doesn't have (system), chances are it doesn't have an FFI either.
2021-02-22T15:28:20Z amirouche2: If a Scheme does not have FFI, chances it doesn't have users either.
2021-02-22T15:28:50Z mdhughes: Well, it might be in Java or something, but then you'd have a different FFI, and it's easy to do system from Java.
2021-02-22T15:29:07Z ecraven: it might be in JavaScript, then you just have no way of implementing it at all ;P
2021-02-22T15:29:21Z mdhughes: JS is the only back-end where there's probably no native environment.
2021-02-22T15:29:32Z mdhughes: Node does have system, of course.
2021-02-22T15:30:44Z mario-goulart: If a Scheme does not have users, changes are it is a real scheme.
2021-02-22T15:32:23Z amirouche2: :D
2021-02-22T15:32:40Z mario-goulart: s/changes/chances/
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2021-02-22T15:43:42Z lockywolf: scsh is a colossal product though
2021-02-22T15:43:49Z lockywolf: even though it fails to install
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2021-02-22T16:46:48Z Riastradh: A mere `system' procedure is almost never what you actually want...
2021-02-22T16:48:19Z mdhughes: Works fine for me. I often have to do (system "stty raw") etc.
2021-02-22T16:48:52Z bandali: Riastradh, hey, i was looking at your blag.txt, and was curious if there was any particular reason you switched from 2-space newline indentation to 3-space ones at some point?
2021-02-22T16:48:57Z bandali: (err, totally off-topic for this channel; sorry :-p)
2021-02-22T16:48:58Z mdhughes: I *could* expose all of ioctl and stty APIs, or I could do it the real simple way and move on.
2021-02-22T16:50:30Z Riastradh: bandali: I...have no idea.  Apparently I did that about a decade ago.
2021-02-22T16:51:42Z bandali: ah okay. and damn, *a while ago*, ha... time flies
2021-02-22T16:52:32Z Zipheir: Perhaps it signals a significant change.  Some scholars read a lot into Bach's change of C-clef style around the time of his Leipzig move.
2021-02-22T16:53:32Z Zipheir: "Ah, this is clearly the work of post-three-space Riastradh..."
2021-02-22T16:57:29Z Riastradh: I think the change was a few days before I took a train from Boston to San Francisco.  But, uh, I dunno, I don't often look at the thing; kinda makes me cringe.  I hope there aren't any scholars who get confused into a misapprehension that I warrant any comparison to Bach!
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2021-02-22T17:12:17Z bandali: :-D
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2021-02-22T19:21:28Z jcowan: lockywolf: How "fails to install"?
2021-02-22T19:21:52Z jcowan: You have to use the matching version of scheme48, to be sure.
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2021-02-22T22:55:06Z duncanm: Riastradh: are you on your way to SF?
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2021-02-22T23:20:10Z Riastradh: duncanm: ?
2021-02-22T23:20:21Z Riastradh: duncanm: ...that train from Boston to SF was over a decade ago.
2021-02-22T23:20:27Z duncanm: oh!
2021-02-22T23:20:35Z duncanm: haha
2021-02-22T23:21:07Z duncanm: sounds like a fun trip, how long does it take to go to SF by train? a week?
2021-02-22T23:21:48Z Riastradh: 3.5 days
2021-02-22T23:22:45Z Riastradh: 1 day Boston<->Chicago on the Lake Shore Limited, 2.5 days Chicago<->Emeryville on the California Zephyr (plus another bus ride or something to actually reach SF, I forget the details)
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2021-02-23T01:10:22Z aeth: After a few months of a break, I'm adding a "few" tests to Airship Scheme because it was starting to collapse under the weight of no tests.
2021-02-23T01:10:25Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/5fe3d10feecf280c42e246473e6aee83b265cdb9/tests/tests.lisp
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2021-02-23T01:28:44Z mirrorbird: Riastradh, do you want to come stay at my place when you are in Emeryville
2021-02-23T01:28:51Z mirrorbird: i have a basement
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2021-02-23T01:38:57Z aeth: I also keep prominent Schemers in my basement.
2021-02-23T01:41:11Z mirrorbird: is he prominent?
2021-02-23T01:41:17Z mirrorbird: what's so prominent about him
2021-02-23T01:41:34Z aeth: iirc paredit
2021-02-23T01:42:10Z mirrorbird: sounds like you're trying to improve your own standing by sucking up to a prominent lisper
2021-02-23T01:42:55Z aeth: no, I'm just trying to one-up edgar-rft in the one liner contest that has been going on for years and years
2021-02-23T01:43:34Z aeth: apparently it wasn't funny enough so edgar-rft wins again
2021-02-23T01:44:21Z mirrorbird: ah
2021-02-23T01:44:39Z mirrorbird: how does airship compare to racket
2021-02-23T01:45:05Z mirrorbird: i've used chicken, racket, CLISP on and off for 10 yrs
2021-02-23T01:45:14Z mirrorbird: now it is too late in the day to read your readme
2021-02-23T01:45:22Z aeth: well, racket runs
2021-02-23T01:45:25Z mirrorbird: oh
2021-02-23T01:45:47Z mirrorbird: i am on my third scheme implementation now. dunno why
2021-02-23T01:45:58Z aeth: airship scheme kinda collapsed under the weight of no tests, as I said. Make one change, break two things.
2021-02-23T01:46:03Z mirrorbird: ah
2021-02-23T01:46:06Z mirrorbird: so it's not usable?
2021-02-23T01:46:07Z aeth: So I have to take a step back for a while and test things
2021-02-23T01:46:12Z mirrorbird: man why am i yawning so much
2021-02-23T01:46:15Z mirrorbird: ah
2021-02-23T01:46:23Z aeth: No, it's not usable, but it's far more minimal than most Schemes of comparable feature sets because it compiles to Common Lisp
2021-02-23T01:47:19Z mirrorbird: i dunno if i could ever create a usable implementation. i mean. i don't even know what *i* would use it for
2021-02-23T01:47:29Z mirrorbird: when the hell did i write a small useful program
2021-02-23T01:50:50Z mdhughes: I'm too busy making software to write my own languages again; I wrote a few back in the day.
2021-02-23T01:51:35Z mdhughes: For those not on fedi: https://appdot.net/@mdhughes/105765534389853353
2021-02-23T01:52:01Z mirrorbird: i have to be approved to see your tweets
2021-02-23T01:52:06Z mdhughes: Not strictly related to my next Perilar game, still stuck in rewrite hell, but uses the same infrastructure.
2021-02-23T01:52:32Z mdhughes: No? I'm not locked.
2021-02-23T01:52:34Z mirrorbird: mdhughes, please approve me daddy
2021-02-23T01:52:37Z mirrorbird: i don't have twitter
2021-02-23T01:52:53Z mdhughes: Fediverse is not twitter!
2021-02-23T01:53:03Z mirrorbird: that link redirected me to twitter
2021-02-23T01:53:17Z mirrorbird: oh no lol. it didn't
2021-02-23T01:53:21Z mirrorbird: sorry. i googled you. jesus. i am so tired
2021-02-23T01:53:26Z mirrorbird: it's like i have dementia/ something
2021-02-23T01:53:51Z mdhughes: OK, that's a relief. My birbsite is defunct/private messages with a few people only. Even tho I had, what, 3000 followers?
2021-02-23T01:54:30Z mirrorbird: looks like it
2021-02-23T01:54:38Z mdhughes: Oh, weird, it's *exactly* 2000 now. birbsite killing fake accounts hurts!
2021-02-23T01:55:08Z mirrorbird: twitter is pretty disgusting
2021-02-23T01:55:13Z mdhughes: I've got 10% as many on fedi, but more friends and better conversations than I ever had on birbsite.
2021-02-23T01:57:29Z aeth: mirrorbird: re the "what would I use it for" problem... that's why I'm writing Airship Scheme in Common Lisp
2021-02-23T01:57:44Z aeth: Virtually every Scheme prioritizes interop with useless, niche languages like C, Java, or JS
2021-02-23T01:57:56Z mirrorbird: lol :P
2021-02-23T02:00:17Z Riastradh: i...what
2021-02-23T02:01:01Z mirrorbird: Riastradh, sorry i didn't see you were referring to a trip that had already happened
2021-02-23T02:02:12Z mirrorbird: hm actually this reminded me of something. years ago, i think 8, i used Emacs, and chicken scheme. i remember that there was something about Emacs which made writing LISP/Scheme a breeze. now i only use vim. can't remember what it was
2021-02-23T02:02:17Z mirrorbird: maybe it was some parenthesis thing
2021-02-23T02:02:28Z mirrorbird: i guess that was paredit
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2021-02-23T02:10:21Z edgar-rft: aeth: one day I will write Titanic Scheme
2021-02-23T02:13:01Z Riastradh: Could be!  There are a few other things floating around like smartparens, but IN MY HUMBLE OPINION they don't work as well.
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2021-02-23T02:14:00Z mirrorbird: so wait, Riastradh, you wrote paredit?
2021-02-23T02:14:04Z mirrorbird: i get confused
2021-02-23T02:14:11Z Riastradh: 'fraid so
2021-02-23T02:14:27Z mirrorbird: well i installed paredit.vim, will see if it's decent
2021-02-23T02:14:39Z Riastradh: I wrote the original paredit; no idea about paredit.vim.
2021-02-23T02:14:50Z mirrorbird: i know
2021-02-23T02:15:10Z Riastradh: Didn't bother to trademark the name `paredit' or anything, so there are knockoffs; can't vouch for them.
2021-02-23T02:15:18Z mirrorbird: filthy knockoffs
2021-02-23T02:15:20Z mirrorbird: probably made in china
2021-02-23T02:19:56Z Riastradh: Anyway if you figure out what's prominent about me let me know so I can fix it.
2021-02-23T02:20:44Z mirrorbird: i dunno, maybe it's the shoes
2021-02-23T02:21:29Z edgar-rft: paredit makes parens around your shoes
2021-02-23T02:21:50Z mirrorbird: don't tell my parens i use paredit
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2021-02-23T02:54:40Z aeth: Riastradh: you should sell paredit merchandise
2021-02-23T03:05:10Z Riastradh: pillow themed with `paredit-forward-barf-sexp'
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2021-02-23T04:57:22Z mdhughes: Oh, look, pg talks about his second abandoned Lisp-like: http://paulgraham.com/worked.html
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2021-02-23T05:01:35Z Zipheir: Wow, that's an epic.
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2021-02-23T11:28:21Z lockywolf: error: /usr/local/lib/scsh-0.7/tty-control-chars-info.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory [shared_object_dlopen]
2021-02-23T11:28:40Z lockywolf: which is, indeed, true, since it's being installed into DESTDIR
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2021-02-23T22:30:31Z tktechZd: /!\ this chat has moved to irc.crimeircd.net #pp /!\
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2021-02-23T22:31:22Z Ovius: /!\ this chat has moved to irc.crimeircd.net #pp /!\
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2021-02-23T22:32:17Z amirouche2: ah btw there is spam attack around freenode
2021-02-23T22:32:33Z Zipheir: Looks like it.
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2021-02-23T22:32:58Z Guest3871: /!\ this chat has moved to irc.crimeircd.net #0 /!\
2021-02-23T22:33:12Z Zipheir: Ugh.  If it's being launched from lots of different IPs it's going to be hard to stop.
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2021-02-23T22:40:04Z wasamasa: I guess it fizzled out
2021-02-23T22:40:17Z wasamasa: might be worth trying +r on the channel if it reawakens
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2021-02-23T22:43:47Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zipheir
2021-02-23T22:44:01Z Zipheir has set mode +b *!*nikow@41.47.182.*
2021-02-23T22:44:01Z nikowag [~zaifir@98.4.178.27] has been kicked from #scheme by Zipheir (Spamming)
2021-02-23T22:44:08Z wasamasa: yeah, not signed in
2021-02-23T22:44:43Z ChanServ has set mode -o Zipheir
2021-02-23T22:45:11Z Zipheir: Let's see how it goes, and I'll set +r if it keeps going.
2021-02-23T22:45:29Z Zipheir: WTF, base64 garbage strings?
2021-02-23T22:45:44Z wasamasa: could be an attempt to outsmart sigyn
2021-02-23T22:45:55Z wasamasa: since it goes after repetitive patterns
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2021-02-23T22:49:57Z Riastradh has set mode +q $~a
2021-02-23T22:50:20Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Thanks.
2021-02-23T22:50:24Z Riastradh: feel free to remove when the spammers have grown bored
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2021-02-23T22:54:17Z Riastradh: (`+q $~a' silences unregistered users, which is annoying, but effective during spam attacks; `/mode #scheme -q $~a' to remove it)
2021-02-23T22:55:07Z Zipheir: Yes.  I was just reading up on Freenode's mode patterns.
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2021-02-23T22:56:52Z Riastradh: (better than +r, which prevents unregistered users from even reading the channel)
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2021-02-23T22:57:32Z Zipheir: Excellent point.
2021-02-23T22:58:24Z Zipheir: I only knew about +r.  This is definitely preferable.
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2021-02-23T23:00:10Z Zipheir: rudybot: Another one bites the dust.
2021-02-23T23:00:13Z rudybot: Zipheir: seamonkey 2.29 would like to access your contacts. another one bites the dust
2021-02-23T23:08:54Z amirouche2: rudybot: that is saturday night fever
2021-02-23T23:08:55Z rudybot: amirouche2: you're letting us down man, that was the perfect opportunity for a saturday night fever reference
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2021-02-24T03:20:08Z Zipheir: The spamming seems to have abated.
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2021-02-24T03:54:37Z lockywolf: https://github.com/abo-abo/lispy
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2021-02-24T09:16:30Z nullx002: how tinyscheme differs from full scheme implementations?
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2021-02-24T09:21:27Z nullx002: hi all,
2021-02-24T09:23:57Z ecraven: hey ;) it's just one of many, it isn't "less Scheme" than many others
2021-02-24T09:24:12Z ecraven: it doesn't implement R7RS fully, I think, but quite some others don't either
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2021-02-24T09:59:55Z nullx002: I think it doesn't implement R5RS fully too..
2021-02-24T10:04:35Z mdhughes: No, it's a small subset. And you need to suggest gc to it, and it has very limited memory. It's an easy one to embed, is its main point.
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2021-02-24T10:08:36Z nullx002: mdhughes, so good for surveillance devices and kind...
2021-02-24T10:10:36Z mdhughes: Surveillance devices?
2021-02-24T10:11:18Z mdhughes: If you're using any software to spy on people, stop, and turn yourself in to authorities, please.
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2021-02-24T11:13:20Z null_radix[m]: is there any way to dynamically import a library with r6/7rs or any srfis?
2021-02-24T11:13:40Z null_radix[m]: besides using read and eval
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2021-02-24T12:53:47Z amirouche1: null_radix[m]: no
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2021-02-24T12:54:50Z amirouche1: null_radix[m]: in general that kind of behavior people call "dynamic" is rare in scheme e.g. runtime introspection, monkey patching.
2021-02-24T12:55:22Z amirouche1: or duck typing.
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2021-02-24T12:56:24Z ecraven: some Schemes have very good introspection ;) MIT/GNU Scheme for example
2021-02-24T12:56:36Z amirouche1: also whether it is R6 or R7, libraries are not scheme objects.
2021-02-24T12:57:02Z amirouche1: ecraven: the usual suspect :D
2021-02-24T12:57:39Z amirouche1: maybe I should have said many of the things people call "dynamic" such as with Python does not exists with Chez.
2021-02-24T12:58:18Z ecraven: well, one of the reasons chez's code is as fast as it is is that it "compiles away" many internal functions aggressively
2021-02-24T12:58:35Z amirouche1: ecraven: re mit has library introspection and record introspection ?
2021-02-24T12:58:51Z ecraven: yes
2021-02-24T12:59:25Z ecraven: (record-type-field-names (record-type-descriptor object))
2021-02-24T12:59:46Z ecraven: ((record-accessor type field-name) object)
2021-02-24T12:59:55Z amirouche1: ah yes, you can do record introspection I think with chez, can you? and library  introspection requires to write your own code but it is not impossible that includes read + eval.
2021-02-24T13:00:09Z ecraven: r6rs in general has record inspection, I think
2021-02-24T13:00:23Z amirouche1: yeah, IIRC it is R6RS feature.
2021-02-24T13:00:28Z ecraven: I think library introspection is impossible in chez, you can only see the exported bindings, but nothing else
2021-02-24T13:00:44Z ecraven: so you can see what a library imports and exports, but not which functions are only defined internally
2021-02-24T13:00:53Z amirouche1: my mistake, I said something wrong, but still wonder why I have that sentiment that scheme is not as "dynamic" as python / javascript / ruby.
2021-02-24T13:01:16Z ecraven: well, *some* implementations are dynamic, but recently (for the last decade or two probably ;) things have moved in a more static direction
2021-02-24T13:01:25Z amirouche1: ecraven: yes that is included with chezscheme, but looking up what are the available libraries requires file system fiddling
2021-02-24T13:01:32Z ecraven: (also, not sure what guile supports, it might be up to MIT/GNU Scheme, and I just don't know)
2021-02-24T13:01:32Z null_radix[m]: guile also has library introspection
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2021-02-24T13:01:51Z ecraven: null_radix[m]: can you "enter" a library and change things in a running system?
2021-02-24T13:02:06Z amirouche1: fwiw, last time I tried record introspection with guile it did not work for me as I understood the manual.
2021-02-24T13:02:29Z amirouche1: IIRC I compared with chez, and the procedure that returns field names is different in R6RS guile.
2021-02-24T13:02:35Z amirouche1: is or was.
2021-02-24T13:03:00Z amirouche1: anyway.
2021-02-24T13:03:01Z null_radix[m]: ecraven: i think so, i defaintly know you can get the imports/exports
2021-02-24T13:03:01Z ecraven: I thought r6rs only allowed access via indices, not names
2021-02-24T13:03:11Z amirouche1: that is exactly the trouble I had.
2021-02-24T13:03:26Z amirouche1: maybe I was mixing procedures from guile with R6RS specific procedures.
2021-02-24T13:03:32Z ecraven: you can get a vector of the names, I think, you just have to get the indices from that
2021-02-24T13:03:40Z ecraven: r7rs-swank has it for chez at least
2021-02-24T13:04:29Z amirouche1: does mit scheme support monkey patching a procedure from another library?
2021-02-24T13:05:05Z amirouche1: such as replacing the definition of a procedure in another library e.g. for the purpose of testing with stubs / mocks.
2021-02-24T13:05:19Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche
2021-02-24T13:05:27Z amirouche: (note: it is not a feature request)
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2021-02-24T13:07:14Z amirouche: replacing = changing at runtime.
2021-02-24T13:08:51Z amirouche: IIRC guile can do it.
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2021-02-24T13:41:19Z ecraven: amirouche: as far as I'm aware you can do that, yes. but it can't be undone, I think
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2021-02-24T13:44:43Z nullx002: any good tuts on tinyscheme
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2021-02-24T14:54:44Z jcowan: nullx002: You mean on writing TinyScheme code?  Any Scheme tutorial will work.  If you mean a tutorial on embedding TinyScheme, that's another matter.
2021-02-24T14:56:00Z jcowan: amirouche: Most Schemes allow static monkey-patching, though they may print warnings.  If you mean redefinition *at run time*, then that's less likely to work.
2021-02-24T14:57:22Z jcowan: After all, how would you patch a monolithic blob of binary/bytecode representing, say, a whole library?
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2021-02-24T17:54:06Z Zipheir: "monkey-patching"
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2021-02-24T18:57:44Z amirouche: rudybot: monkey patching is a great way to show you have good knowledge of evil practices.
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2021-02-24T18:58:15Z amirouche: rudybot: are you there?
2021-02-24T18:58:22Z amirouche: =(
2021-02-24T18:58:24Z rudybot: amirouche: yes, and sometimes that enables bad practices upstream (re: debian's patching practices)
2021-02-24T18:58:28Z rudybot: amirouche: you are aware that there are things called "opinions", and that like assholes, everyone has one
2021-02-24T18:59:16Z amirouche: rudybot: bad practices all the down.
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2021-02-24T18:59:33Z rudybot: amirouche: All of the problems you just listed are down to bad practices, and nothing inherent in modern HTML and CSS itself.
2021-02-24T18:59:47Z amirouche: I strongly disagree!
2021-02-24T19:00:12Z amirouche: rudybot: HTML and CSS are GUI mal-pratices.
2021-02-24T19:00:19Z rudybot: amirouche: thanks it is nice to exchange ideas and pratices
2021-02-24T19:01:33Z amirouche: HTML and CSS good practice changes every few CPU cycles anyway!
2021-02-24T19:06:58Z Zipheir: HTML and CSS^W^W good practice: https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
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2021-02-24T19:16:25Z Zipheir: Of course, that's spawned a number of "improved versions", each of which has stepped further away from the original goal of just sending some formatted text over a socket.
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2021-02-24T23:43:46Z dieggsy: Zipheir: the sentence "This site doesn't care if you're on an iMac or a motherfucking Tamagotchi" has had me use "tamagotchi" as a hyperbole for a low powered computer for years heh
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2021-02-25T00:34:57Z mdhughes: I hate full-width unformatted pages. We use narrower columns for readability!
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2021-02-25T01:06:34Z Zipheir: mdhughes: I seem to remember someone around here saying that the best way to enjoy the IRC protocol was to customize your experience. :)  One can always write one's own style sheets.
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2021-02-25T01:07:37Z mdhughes: Indeed, I do have a style sheet. Lemme just shove extra margins in to screw up every site but fix unstyled pages.
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2021-02-25T01:08:08Z mdhughes: https://mdhughes.tech/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/stupidcomments.css.zip
2021-02-25T01:09:41Z Zipheir: Sure, there aren't a lot of unstyled pages out there.  Even simple browsers can support host-specific styles, though.
2021-02-25T01:10:16Z mdhughes: I don't think that's true? You can't select on URL.
2021-02-25T01:10:29Z Zipheir: I mean, a little pattern-matching plugin for applying foohost.css to foohost.org.
2021-02-25T01:12:17Z Zipheir: There's Stylus for Firefox and Chrome, which is a much more complicated version of that idea.
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2021-02-25T01:22:56Z fizzie: They had that https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@document thing at some point, I'm pretty sure you could stick that in Firefox user stylesheets with a -moz- prefix. (Apparently for versions between 1.5 to 61, then it got disabled.)
2021-02-25T01:27:55Z mdhughes: Yeah, I only use Firefox as my video-playing browser, since nothing really works in it, all real browsing's in Safari. Chrome is of course spyware, don't use that.
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2021-02-25T01:29:36Z Zipheir: All three do plenty of spying, although it seems to be possible to turn most of Firefox's analytics off.
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2021-02-25T04:16:28Z theruran: anybody know why Racket in Gentoo Portage is still on version 7.3?
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2021-02-25T04:32:00Z Zipheir: theruran: #gentoo might know more about that.
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2021-02-25T05:01:22Z astronavt: for someone brand new to scheme but with experience in lisp, is there any reason not to start with an r7rs implementation? or are the older/more-mature r5rs implementations better and easier to use? assume that i'm mainly interested in utility hobby programming - command line tools, small server applications, etc.
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2021-02-25T05:03:15Z Zipheir: astronavt: There's R6RS, as well, to further complicate the choice.
2021-02-25T05:04:44Z Zipheir: astronavt: You can switch implementations/standards without too much trouble, so you might want to just start hacking.
2021-02-25T05:05:02Z astronavt: true, and in fact i wonder if that's a better choice for my use case where more "batteries included" is probabl better
2021-02-25T05:05:04Z astronavt: probably*
2021-02-25T05:07:18Z Zipheir: The only real split anymore is R6 vs. R7.  Most of the R5RS+ implementations have some level of R7 compatibility.
2021-02-25T05:09:10Z Zipheir: (And the number of full R6 implementations is limited: Chez, Racket, and Guile, basically.)
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2021-02-25T05:12:22Z astronavt: i see, i didnt realize guile was r6
2021-02-25T05:12:45Z astronavt: do people use racket for general purpose programming? i know it's capable, i just usually see it discussed as a "teaching language"
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2021-02-25T05:13:46Z astronavt: i've probably spent more time in racket than any other scheme and i enjoyed it. has a lot of interesting features like delimited continuations, contracts, and typed racket is especially interesting to me
2021-02-25T05:15:12Z Zipheir: astronavt: Racket's plenty fast.  If you're interested in benchmarks, then check out https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2021-02-25T05:15:32Z Zipheir: Yes, TR is the only gradually-typed Scheme I'm aware of.
2021-02-25T05:19:09Z astronavt: and how is Gerbil? i originally looked at it because the name was fun and they have the website "cons.io", but they bill themselves as a "meta-dialect of scheme" that is "concurrent and distributed" to the core, which again is very enticing to me for some use cases
2021-02-25T05:19:52Z astronavt: but i presume this is a "use what you're comfortable with" thing in which case racket is probably not a bad way to go
2021-02-25T05:20:09Z Zipheir: I haven't used it much, but I appreciate all the r7rs-large libraries that vyzo has added.
2021-02-25T05:20:45Z Zipheir: astronavt: Sadly, you can go crazy trying to find the "right" Scheme.  So yeah, try Racket and see how it goes.
2021-02-25T05:22:43Z astronavt: yep, "language hopping" itself is a tempting waste of time, and here you have the same set of temptations within _one_ language
2021-02-25T05:23:20Z Zipheir: Language hopping is a great way to learn.
2021-02-25T05:25:48Z astronavt: true. but at some point you have to stop writing toy programs in 10 different languages, and start building something :)
2021-02-25T05:27:38Z mdhughes: Gerbil's a very fast, enhanced Scheme…with poor documentation.
2021-02-25T05:27:38Z mdhughes: So figuring out how to use any new features means digging into source mostly.
2021-02-25T05:27:39Z mdhughes: I had a devil of a time with their extensions to Gambit FFI.
2021-02-25T05:27:40Z mdhughes: Chez's well-documented in CSUG and TSPL, including its enhancements.
2021-02-25T05:27:42Z mdhughes: Any impl saying "we follow the spec" is just not that helpful, because the specs don't cover everything you need for real work.
2021-02-25T05:27:44Z mdhughes: CHICKEN at least has all the eggs documented.
2021-02-25T05:31:40Z astronavt: i see
2021-02-25T05:31:50Z astronavt: good docs are really important to me actually
2021-02-25T05:32:19Z astronavt: i remember that's why i gave up on guile... i was trying to convert one of my python scripts to guile and i just couldn't find the information i needed
2021-02-25T05:32:45Z astronavt: so gerbil i will probably avoid, chez and chicken could be good if for some reason i don't stick with racket
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2021-02-25T05:36:00Z mdhughes: Yeah. I hate DrRacket's GUI, with the REPL that destroys itself every time you edit a file. But it works fine from command line, and has good docs. Just slower and less convenient to me than Chez.
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2021-02-25T05:37:04Z mdhughes: There's also a *lot* of extra stuff in Racket. So I get choice paralysis looking at the libs. With Chez, I have to think about what I want and make it myself mostly.
2021-02-25T05:40:11Z astronavt: i see. that's another + to racket for me then.
2021-02-25T05:42:06Z astronavt: what about text editor integration? something like slime, although ideally _not_ specifically for emacs. maybe something with the language server protocol? or some swank-like server that you can interact with from e.g. vim/neovim
2021-02-25T05:42:24Z astronavt: assuming i'd rather use my own text editor and not drracket if i can avoid it
2021-02-25T05:42:44Z Zipheir: Racket can also run Pie, which is interesting to use as a learning language with dependent types.
2021-02-25T05:43:51Z astronavt: cool
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2021-02-25T06:05:05Z jcowan: and Algol 60, for that matter
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2021-02-25T06:16:47Z Zipheir: That is definitely cool.
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2021-02-25T07:23:38Z ecraven: astronavt: I've never tried with vim, but maybe https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-swank works
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2021-02-25T22:14:52Z wire_wolf: What would be a good way to modify an association list? assoc acts like hash-table-ref from srfi-69. But I haven't found anything like hash-table-set!.
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2021-02-25T22:20:45Z Zipheir: There's nothing standard, AFAIK.  Many schemes provide something like that; it's easy to roll up with set-car!.
2021-02-25T22:21:52Z Zipheir: But, since alists aren't exactly used for performance, I doubt it's worth the bother.
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2021-02-25T22:23:29Z Zipheir: (alist-cons key value (alist-delete key my-alist)) is also O(n), so I'd just use that.
2021-02-25T22:23:29Z Zipheir: wire_wolf: ^^
2021-02-25T22:24:15Z Zipheir: (Those two alist- functions are from SRFI 1.)
2021-02-25T22:24:45Z wire_wolf: Thanks!
2021-02-25T22:29:47Z Zipheir: SRFI 1 provides alist-delete!, as well, I'm noticing.  So replace alist-delete with the bang version if you really want the non-consing update.
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2021-02-25T22:30:20Z Zipheir: (*probably* non-consing--linear update procedures may not be destructive.)
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2021-02-25T23:55:48Z dieggsy: Is the choice of _ as a placeholder symbol in srfi-197 purely subjective?
2021-02-25T23:55:58Z dieggsy: i feel like <> to parallel cut/cute would have been *nice*
2021-02-25T23:59:07Z dieggsy: ooh, nevermind, continued reading
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2021-02-26T01:47:41Z jcowan: The good thing about alists is that they are the only functional mappings you can make with only standard R5RS equipment.
2021-02-26T01:48:59Z Zipheir: What about trees?
2021-02-26T01:49:19Z Zipheir: "Trivially make", perhaps.
2021-02-26T01:49:56Z jcowan: Yes.
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2021-02-26T03:23:52Z ullbeking: hello!  i just heard that R7RS is split in two parts, one for teaching, the other for implementing with a practical focus.  is this true?
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2021-02-26T03:52:53Z mdhughes: It's also semi-trivial to make a hashtable, even if you didn't have libraries. 5 functions? create, rehash, get, put, generic hash function.
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2021-02-26T04:48:27Z Zipheir: ullbeking: Small language and small language + lots of libraries, so far.
2021-02-26T04:49:22Z ullbeking: Zipheir: i couldn't believe it when i first heard about it
2021-02-26T04:49:42Z ullbeking: imo this is the silliest idea and takes away so much of the "elegance" of scheme
2021-02-26T04:50:55Z Zipheir: How so?
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2021-02-26T05:41:20Z ullbeking: Zipheir: do you see in R7RS all the characteristics that make Scheme awesome in the first place?
2021-02-26T05:41:49Z ullbeking: this big/small divide seems so silly
2021-02-26T05:41:56Z ullbeking: it's pointless
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2021-02-26T05:44:38Z Zipheir: ullbeking: Do you have a specific argument that you'd like to make?
2021-02-26T05:45:29Z ullbeking: it's my understanding that the small version is primary for educational purposes, is that right?
2021-02-26T05:46:03Z Zipheir: No such claim appears in the R7RS-small standard, AFAIK.
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2021-02-26T05:46:39Z Zipheir: That claim map appear on Wikipedia, I think.
2021-02-26T05:46:44Z Zipheir: s/map/may/
2021-02-26T05:47:27Z ullbeking: ok, but is this the widely understood or accepted rationale?
2021-02-26T05:48:06Z Zipheir: Not really.  R7RS-small is small because R6RS was large and monolithic, and thus not widely implemented.
2021-02-26T05:48:38Z Zipheir: (That's the nutshell version of what happened, at least.)
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2021-02-26T05:49:42Z Zipheir: I can't recall any of the R7RS editors ever calling it an "educational" subset.
2021-02-26T05:49:50Z ullbeking: ok
2021-02-26T05:49:58Z ullbeking: i just learned about it today
2021-02-26T05:50:14Z ullbeking: and i was quite surprised by the description given to me
2021-02-26T05:50:53Z ullbeking: it all seemed to hodge podge for a language renowned for its "cleanness?"
2021-02-26T05:51:20Z ullbeking: and it just didn't seem to jive with a language that i have love when i've used it
2021-02-26T05:51:30Z ullbeking: i need time to understand this
2021-02-26T05:52:00Z ullbeking: then i'll write it up in a blog.  who know, it may even turn out that i'm mistaken today and this is a positive thing
2021-02-26T05:52:02Z Zipheir: R7RS-small is a pretty small and, according to some, clean language.
2021-02-26T05:52:27Z Zipheir: I'm not sure I understand what language features you're actually objecting too.
2021-02-26T05:52:29Z Zipheir: s/too/to
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2021-02-26T05:53:03Z Zipheir: For comparison, R7 is only a bit longer than R5RS.
2021-02-26T05:53:05Z ullbeking: it's not language features
2021-02-26T05:53:25Z ullbeking: it's this weird split thing
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2021-02-26T05:53:58Z Zipheir: Would you prefer it all be lumped together?
2021-02-26T05:54:34Z ullbeking: no.  it's already huge.  the committee is trying to make scheme into something it's not
2021-02-26T05:54:48Z Zipheir: Which is?
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2021-02-26T05:55:07Z ullbeking: in mean, yes, lump it together, but make it small is what i'd prefer
2021-02-26T05:55:33Z Zipheir: Scheme is many things to many people, hence there's a lot of disagreement.
2021-02-26T05:55:43Z Zipheir: Small as in R5RS-level small?
2021-02-26T05:55:46Z ullbeking: i agree
2021-02-26T05:55:53Z ullbeking: therefore r5rs is the solution
2021-02-26T05:56:01Z Zipheir: It really isn't.
2021-02-26T05:56:20Z Zipheir: None of the R5RS Schemes are remotely interoperable.
2021-02-26T05:56:35Z Zipheir: The R5RS doesn't even provide a standard way to raise an error.
2021-02-26T05:57:01Z ullbeking: do you  think r7rs-small addressed these shortcomings?
2021-02-26T05:57:28Z Zipheir: (OK, yes, there's `error', but what it does is unclear.)
2021-02-26T05:58:13Z Zipheir: No, and it's not supposed to.  It provides some things that R5 lacks, like exceptions and libraries.
2021-02-26T05:59:18Z ullbeking: i don't think making all these schemes do the same thing, even with R5, R6, or R7, libraries, FFI's, incompatible libraries, etc, etc, etc, is desirable....
2021-02-26T05:59:21Z Zipheir: That's where R7RS-large is supposed to come in and provide standardized versions of the stuff that Schemes have been doing in implementation-specific ways.
2021-02-26T05:59:21Z ullbeking: in fact...
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2021-02-26T05:59:55Z ullbeking: i think the magic of scheme is precisely that it has provided such a huge amount of interpretations of what it should be
2021-02-26T06:00:38Z Zipheir: Do you think portability is a worthwhile goal for a language with many implementations?
2021-02-26T06:01:08Z ullbeking think
2021-02-26T06:01:18Z ullbeking is thinking*
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2021-02-26T06:02:02Z ullbeking: not really.
2021-02-26T06:02:31Z ullbeking: easily portable would be my aim
2021-02-26T06:02:52Z Zipheir: So no, but yes?  I don't understand.
2021-02-26T06:03:15Z ullbeking: Scheme has existed for how long?
2021-02-26T06:03:16Z jcowan: Well, R7RS is meant to be interoperable rather than strictly portable.  It is flexible enough to fit many different implementations with only small changes.
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2021-02-26T06:03:18Z Zipheir: (Side note: I shouldn't have second-guessed: `error' isn't in R5RS.)
2021-02-26T06:03:20Z ullbeking: It's never been portable
2021-02-26T06:03:26Z ullbeking: It never will be
2021-02-26T06:03:30Z ullbeking: Let it be what it is
2021-02-26T06:03:46Z ullbeking: It's an interesting language
2021-02-26T06:04:00Z Zipheir: You're free to write your own Scheme-like language.
2021-02-26T06:04:07Z ullbeking: Of course
2021-02-26T06:04:09Z jcowan: As for "educational", I did propose that the small language have a random-number procedures, because people often want to write small games and they often need random numbers, but the committee shot that down.
2021-02-26T06:04:14Z Zipheir: But you'd have to agree that not everyone *wants* an unportable language.
2021-02-26T06:05:03Z ullbeking: I just don't think it will ever be portable, and by now it should be recognized
2021-02-26T06:05:15Z ullbeking: It's not a terrible thing
2021-02-26T06:05:48Z Zipheir: ullbeking: Have you written any portable Scheme programs/libraries?
2021-02-26T06:06:00Z jcowan: The [WG1] report says: "The language is intended for use in education, programming-language research, embedded systems, and embedded scripting languages. It will also be a platform on which other languages can be built. For these uses, a language that is "lightweight" at the semantic and/or implementation level is appropriate."
2021-02-26T06:06:08Z jcowan: meaning the small language
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2021-02-26T06:06:17Z jcowan: s/report/charter
2021-02-26T06:06:21Z jcowan: it's late here, don't mind me.
2021-02-26T06:07:00Z jcowan: THere are plenty of Schemes already that will never meet any standard.
2021-02-26T06:07:04Z Zipheir: OK, I was wrong, then.  Education is indeed mentioned.
2021-02-26T06:07:47Z jcowan: the WG2 charter calls for "a language in the Scheme family that is large enough to address the practical needs of mainstream software development"
2021-02-26T06:08:00Z Zipheir: ullbeking: I ask that because, IME, it's actually not bad.  A lot can be done in portable Scheme, and adapting code between implementations is often pretty reasonable.
2021-02-26T06:08:02Z jcowan: We may not meet that goal, but I'm making as good a stab at it as I can.
2021-02-26T06:08:26Z jcowan: I think we have met all the WG1 goals except the schedule, which was (as always) too tight from the start.
2021-02-26T06:08:45Z jcowan: http://scheme-reports.org/2009/working-group-1-charter.html and http://scheme-reports.org/2009/working-group-2-charter.html
2021-02-26T06:09:09Z Zipheir: ullbeking: So the claim that "Scheme isn't portable" is fairly inaccurate.  As for whether it can be more portable, that's purely a matter of how much effort people want to put into that goal.
2021-02-26T06:09:56Z Zipheir: jcowan: Is there anything left to do before Orange Edition?
2021-02-26T06:10:09Z jcowan: R6RS is quite portable, at the expense of interoperability with earlier standards.
2021-02-26T06:10:58Z jcowan: We have everything in place, we just need to assemble 3 more SRFIs for which we have both text and implementation.  I just need to be able to take a breath and do that and get them pushed through the process.
2021-02-26T06:11:17Z Zipheir: Cool.
2021-02-26T06:12:27Z jcowan: Actually only two, compound objects and dictionaries.  I have a lot of paper notes on compound objects that I need to integrate with the online version, and then the implementaiton will need updating.  Dictionaries is in better shape, but it's *big*.
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2021-02-26T07:39:53Z ZombieChicken: Hello. Anyone know of any decent lisp interaction modes for vim? I thought I found one, but can no longer find anything other than stuff for CL
2021-02-26T07:41:50Z ecraven: slime / swank is supposed to work for vim, but I've never used it personally
2021-02-26T07:42:19Z ecraven: I'm sure I've heard of others too, but don't quite remember them at the moment
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2021-02-26T08:09:17Z mdhughes: The other side is you can just ignore R7 and do useful things with working R6 or R5+ impls today.
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2021-02-26T14:15:27Z dieggsy: Are there any plans to normalize CSS across srfi's? It's a bit weird that they vary at all
2021-02-26T14:15:28Z dieggsy: srfi-197's is quite pleasing FWIW
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2021-02-26T15:07:25Z jcowan: dieggsy: THere's a default CSS that you get if you use the SRFI template and don't change it.  But you can use whatever CSS you want within reason.
2021-02-26T15:08:56Z jcowan: mdhughes: R7 is a superset of R5 with 8 narrow exceptions, of which the most important is case sensitivity.
2021-02-26T15:09:15Z jcowan: But relatively few people actually write LAMBDA instead of lambda.
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2021-02-26T15:12:51Z mdhughes: Maybe it's an easy change, but there aren't any fully R7, useful for engineering, Schemes at present.
2021-02-26T15:13:45Z mdhughes: Whereas I can use CHICKEN, Gambit, etc. if I only need R5, or Chez, Guile (well, I won't, but someone can), etc. if I need R6.
2021-02-26T15:14:56Z jcowan: Gerbil
2021-02-26T15:15:40Z jcowan: Also, Chicken has perfectly good R7RS.
2021-02-26T15:15:43Z mdhughes: Gerbil's pretty weird, I'm dubious of calling it any spec except itself.
2021-02-26T15:16:08Z mdhughes: It probably passes R7-small except the library system is unusual?
2021-02-26T15:16:41Z mdhughes: I tried turning on r7 in CHICKEN and that wasn't good. In particular it didn't do Unicode.
2021-02-26T15:18:42Z jcowan: R7RS doesn't require Unicode.
2021-02-26T15:19:18Z mdhughes: Anything that doesn't support Unicode isn't useful in 2021.
2021-02-26T15:19:36Z amirouche: unicode != utf-8, am i right? Same question asked otherwise: what does "require Unicode" would mean?
2021-02-26T15:20:07Z mdhughes: Does string-upcase corrupt your text hopelessly? It's not Unicode.
2021-02-26T15:22:25Z jcowan: The reason the Unicode library, (scheme char), is optional is to support embedded systems where the overhead of bigass Unicode tables is excessive.
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2021-02-26T15:23:22Z jcowan: I very carefully wrote that part of the spec to thread between "all Unicode, of course" and "Unicode is bloat" so that both sides could get behind it.
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2021-02-26T15:23:38Z jcowan: I am, indeed, rather surprised that all known R7 implementers have implemented the whole language.
2021-02-26T15:24:04Z mdhughes: But they're probably not going to be spec-compliant anyway. So unfortunately strings will be WTF knows, per impl.
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2021-02-26T15:27:06Z jcowan: SRFI 152 is not part of the standard, but it is available for Chicken and uses Chicken's utf8 egg.
2021-02-26T15:27:39Z jcowan: We simply have not been able to get a consensus between index-based SRFI 152 and cursor-based SRFI 130.
2021-02-26T15:27:47Z amirouche: unicode = the character table not the particular utf-8 encoding.
2021-02-26T15:28:01Z mdhughes: Right. So CHICKEN is useful as an R5+, because you can turn on Unicode and get work done. Though in practice utf8 egg is *incredibly* slow for big strings.
2021-02-26T15:31:56Z jcowan: There is also SRFI 135 Texts, which provides efficient immutable strings with O(1) access time.  This *is* part of R7RS-large and is packaged for Chicken.  It recommends using Schem strings only for fairly small strings and texts for bigger ones.
2021-02-26T15:32:18Z jcowan: Two issues are that the literal syntax for texts is not supported and that most other APIs don't support them either.  This could be done by making texts a subclass of strings, but most Schemes either don't support subclassing or don't allow it for native types.
2021-02-26T15:39:52Z mdhughes: Yeah, let me write all my text as u8vectors of UTF-8, or wrap a bunch of other operations in string->text calls.
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2021-02-26T15:41:32Z jcowan: Politics is the art of the possible, science is the art of the soluble, and engineering is the art of the doable.
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2021-02-26T15:42:26Z mdhughes: OR… there's a slightly nicer solution. "11.11. Characters Characters are objects that represent Unicode scalar values [27]."
2021-02-26T15:42:39Z mdhughes: "11.12. Strings Strings are sequences of characters."
2021-02-26T15:43:22Z mdhughes: I understand, there's a bunch of recidivist ASCII enthusiasts who've made it impossible to have nice things. But I'm still going to prefer nice things.
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2021-02-26T15:43:46Z Oxyd: Unicode scalar values meaning code points?
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2021-02-26T15:44:12Z mdhughes: Yes. It does allow for surrogates, there's a good discussion in that section.
2021-02-26T15:46:25Z jcowan: What standard are you quoting, R6RS?
2021-02-26T15:46:26Z Oxyd: Well there's also combining characters. So, for example "á" is a string two “characters” long.
2021-02-26T15:46:58Z mdhughes: Yes, that's R6.
2021-02-26T15:47:13Z Oxyd: I feel that some concepts, such as string length, don't really make much sense in Unicode world.
2021-02-26T15:47:38Z mdhughes: What, they're wavicles now?
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2021-02-26T15:48:45Z mdhughes: A string absolutely has a length and individual characters. You can but don't have to canonicalize them, which might reduce the length. Display length is a totally different thing that depends on the font.
2021-02-26T15:49:07Z Oxyd: Does it, though? What's a character?
2021-02-26T15:49:14Z mdhughes: A Unicode code point.
2021-02-26T15:49:33Z Oxyd: I'd say that's very different from a character.
2021-02-26T15:50:14Z mdhughes: 11.11 disagrees, and I'm with 11.11 on that.
2021-02-26T15:50:27Z Oxyd: The previous á, for example, is clearly a single character, even though it's two code points.
2021-02-26T15:51:18Z mdhughes: No, it's 1, or can be 2 if you use a combining char instead.
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2021-02-26T15:51:42Z mdhughes: (string-length "á") => 1 in Chez, as I would expect.
2021-02-26T15:51:44Z Oxyd: It's a single character, no matter what Unicode representation you choose. The representation can be either one or two code points.
2021-02-26T15:52:26Z mdhughes: (string-length "á") => 2
2021-02-26T15:52:40Z mdhughes: (had to open char viewer and insert the combining char)
2021-02-26T15:53:11Z Oxyd: Precisely.
2021-02-26T15:53:32Z mdhughes: You're misled by the Human language meaning of "Character" which is more like glyph, word, morpheme, or token depending on context.
2021-02-26T15:54:42Z Oxyd: That's because it's called string-length. If it were string-number-of-codepoints, I'd have no issue.
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2021-02-26T15:58:19Z Oxyd: Number of codepoints in a particular Unicode representation of a string is a weird thing to care about. I'm not sure when was the last time I wanted to know that. Usually I want to know how many bytes a string takes – but then I care about byte the length in the particular encoding I'm using, which isn't what string-length tells you.
2021-02-26T15:58:49Z Oxyd: Counting the number of things a human would consider to be “characters” is another thing I might be interested in, but string-length doesn't tell you that either.
2021-02-26T15:59:23Z jcowan: Codepoints are the irreducible minimum, which is why they are the basic representation.  Libraries like ICU provide support for iterating through many larger constructs
2021-02-26T15:59:40Z mdhughes: string-length tells me the number of code points I can iterate over in a state machine looking for {VARNAME} sequences to replace.
2021-02-26T16:00:01Z mdhughes: Expecting it to be anything else is, again, an issue for your font.
2021-02-26T16:00:14Z jcowan: So both R6 and R7 adopt the sequence-of-codepoints interpretation of strings.
2021-02-26T16:00:40Z mdhughes: My reading is R7 tells me nothing about what's in the string. It could be baudot.
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2021-02-26T16:01:38Z Oxyd: If you were iterating the string "á", replacing all a's with e's and came up with é, I'd say your program is broken.
2021-02-26T16:02:39Z jcowan: Indeed.  "So don't do that, then."  --doctor's response to patient who says "I can't lift both arms over my head", or whatever
2021-02-26T16:02:58Z Oxyd: Precisely.
2021-02-26T16:03:13Z Oxyd: Unicode is way more complicated than “ASCII but with more characters”.
2021-02-26T16:03:18Z mdhughes: I don't see how using utf8 bytes instead of code points makes that better?
2021-02-26T16:03:40Z Oxyd: If I were to guess I'd say you don't.
2021-02-26T16:03:51Z Oxyd: And you shouldn't because it doesn't.
2021-02-26T16:04:24Z mdhughes: Come come elucidate yourself.
2021-02-26T16:06:37Z Oxyd: UTF-8 would be appropriate for low-level operations such as splitting a text into 512-byte-sized chunk to be sent over the network or something. For replacing “characters” with other “characters”, you'd want something like ICU. The R7 API is straight down the middle of these two extremes and it's useful for … I'm not even sure. Not much.
2021-02-26T16:07:50Z Oxyd: And it confusingly calls codepoints “characters” and has procedures like string-length, which is just asking for someone to start iterating a string and replacing codepoints, thinking they're working with characters.
2021-02-26T16:08:27Z jcowan: Oxyd: As I said, it is useful for building higher-level libs that do suitable operations on natural language texts.
2021-02-26T16:09:19Z jcowan: As for the name "character" we are stuck with it.  If we could change just anything, I'd have only strings, like Python, and they'd be immutable, like Java.
2021-02-26T16:09:54Z jcowan: see my remark about "politics" above
2021-02-26T16:09:57Z Oxyd: Reasonable. string-set! is the other big offender.
2021-02-26T16:11:37Z Oxyd: It's offensive for implementation reasons. You could internally represent strings as sequences of code points, sure, so that's 32 bits per code point, which is wasteful. More reasonable would be to represent them internally as UTF-8, but then string-set! can change the number of bytes you need to represent a string, so your string implementation now needs to support growing and shrinking. So we
2021-02-26T16:11:39Z Oxyd: might as well have string-append!, but we don't because we keep pretending that strings aren't growable.
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2021-02-26T16:13:15Z jcowan: Agreed.  We added string-copy! and string-fill!, which were surely mistakes.  But they inspired SRFI 135, so that's a win
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2021-02-26T16:14:13Z jcowan: If strings are supported with indirection, then growing/shrinking is not so hard.  Chicken does not, but many Schemes do
2021-02-26T16:15:02Z Oxyd: It's not that it's hard, it's that the API makes it look one way, but it actually is something else.
2021-02-26T16:15:31Z Oxyd: The whole string API in R7RS to me feels like someone took ASCII-only string API, replaced “ASCII” with “Unicode” and called it a day.
2021-02-26T16:16:14Z jcowan: Yes.  Another approach is to use UTF-16 internally but maintain a parallel array for any strings that contain astral-plane characters, of course omitting it if there are none.  THis is what Kawa does.
2021-02-26T16:16:55Z jcowan: String-ref and string-set! carefully say "There is no requirement for this procedure to execute in constant time."
2021-02-26T16:22:33Z jcowan: (naturally, Kawa needs to be UTF-16 because Java is, and ditto for IronScheme and CLR.
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2021-02-26T17:02:56Z Zipheir: The jury is still out on the string library question, it seems.
2021-02-26T17:05:50Z Zipheir: At least Scheme isn't stuck with the strings-are-lists model of Haskell.
2021-02-26T17:09:10Z mdhughes: But what are they lists of?
2021-02-26T17:09:47Z Zipheir: Char, whatever that type denotes.
2021-02-26T17:09:59Z Zipheir: Scheme characters, more or less.
2021-02-26T17:10:07Z Oxyd: Codepoints, then?
2021-02-26T17:10:19Z mdhughes: Which as we've just learned, varies completely between versions.
2021-02-26T17:10:22Z Zipheir: Most likely.
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2021-02-26T17:11:33Z Zipheir: Haskell 2010 isn't too much help: "The character type Char is an enumeration whose values represent Unicode (or equivalently ISO/IEC 10646) characters."
2021-02-26T17:12:38Z gwatt: I thought the current sentiment in haskell was to use the Text type?
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2021-02-26T17:13:37Z Zipheir: That would make sense.
2021-02-26T17:14:38Z Zipheir: Wow, naming-wise, that's some nice symmetry with Scheme's string vs. text types.  And yes, I would prefer to see more texts used in Scheme programs.
2021-02-26T17:21:20Z Zipheir: It seems like Haskell is in a similar boat here, as only String is given in the standard language.
2021-02-26T17:22:12Z Zipheir: Haskell: It's like R5RS Scheme, with one monstrous, hyper-extended R5RS+ implementation!
2021-02-26T17:23:35Z gwatt: Are there any relevant implementations of haskell besides ghc?
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2021-02-26T17:25:19Z jcowan: Hugs, but only for special cases and experimentation.
2021-02-26T17:25:22Z jcowan: s/and/like
2021-02-26T17:25:34Z Zipheir: "relevant to whom", of course, but I don't think there are many.  UHC may not be maintained anymore.
2021-02-26T17:26:23Z Zipheir: https://github.com/UU-ComputerScience/uhc
2021-02-26T17:27:52Z Zipheir: The dearth of implementations is unfortunate.  Standard Haskell is actually a pretty small language.
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2021-02-26T18:00:42Z jcowan: It's become a type B language in my trichotomy:  Type A is "no standard, everyone copies the main implementation", like Python.  Type B is "a standard, but everyone copies the extensions and quirks of the main implementation".  Type C is "a standard, no dominant implementation", like Scheme.
2021-02-26T18:03:10Z Zipheir: Right.
2021-02-26T18:03:45Z Zipheir: I'll always prefer C (but not C) over the other two.
2021-02-26T18:05:00Z jcowan: It says nothing about how _good_ the standard is.
2021-02-26T18:05:31Z jcowan: there is also a dichotomy: languages that were mocked in their early years for being too slow (like Lisp) and ones that were not (like Cobol).
2021-02-26T18:05:47Z jcowan: The first group is obsessed with performance, the second not so much.
2021-02-26T18:06:33Z jcowan: IEEE Pilot is a *horrible* standard, and there is only one surviving implementation, which was written totally for hack value
2021-02-26T18:07:47Z Zipheir: Interesting.
2021-02-26T18:08:30Z mdhughes: Amusingly, I've written a couple PILOT impls, tho following more Starkweather's actual PILOT impls and Atari PILOT.
2021-02-26T18:09:13Z mdhughes: The IEEE spec is not available officially, so I can't follow it even if I cared.
2021-02-26T18:09:32Z jcowan: Huh.  Are yours open source?
2021-02-26T18:10:27Z mdhughes: The very old one is BSD but I don't have it online anywhere easy.
2021-02-26T18:10:39Z mdhughes: The most recent one, in Scheme, I haven't released yet.
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2021-02-26T18:11:26Z mdhughes: When I do, it'll be BSD. It's another in my stack of things to get running with nice binary packages xplat.
2021-02-26T18:12:54Z mdhughes: I mostly use PILOT as a trivial parser exercise, but it's also a very nice way to write tiny text adventures, slideshows, etc.
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2021-02-26T18:20:26Z jcowan: The one I meant is at https://gitlab.com/esr/ieee-pilot
2021-02-26T18:20:41Z jcowan: it contains a detailed and scathing critique of the standard
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2021-02-26T18:28:00Z mdhughes: Yeah, ESR got it back when you could. And the spec is really that bad. But Starkweather's working standard was written up in BYTE and mostly implemented in the versions he released.
2021-02-26T18:29:08Z mdhughes: I've never allowed the impl-language-fallthru some versions did, like the Pascal version let you write inline Pascal or ASM!
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2021-02-26T21:28:10Z taw10: ZombieChicken: You asked earlier about Lisp interaction modes for Vim.  Try Conjure (https://github.com/Olical/conjure/) - it supports Racket, Fennel, Clojure and others.  I helped add a Guile backend this week
2021-02-26T21:28:26Z taw10: Neovim only, in case that's a problem
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2021-02-26T22:21:07Z ZombieChicken: Hmm. I don't use neovim. I'll look into that, though
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2021-02-26T22:22:37Z ZombieChicken: Thanks
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2021-02-27T00:03:19Z dieggsy: Something I'm not sure I understand about srfi-197 is it mentions that chain has certain shortcomings that nest does not. In this case, why implement chain using let*? why not implement chain just like nest-reverse?
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2021-02-27T00:41:36Z Zipheir: dieggsy: The mailing list might provide some clues, if you want to go digging. https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-197/
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2021-02-27T00:48:45Z dieggsy: Zipheir: i always forget the mailing lists lol, thanks
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2021-02-27T01:20:39Z dieggsy: Ah, it's to do with enforcing evaluation order i guess
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2021-02-27T17:23:36Z Zipheir: So SRFI 207 defines a convenient string notation for bytevectors, e.g. #u8"magic".  Unfortunately, this can't be implemented with SRFI 10; however, something similar is possible: #,(u8 "magic").  Would you use that notation?  I'm thinking of adding it to the CHICKEN version of 207, since SRFI 10 is available there.
2021-02-27T17:29:00Z dieggsy: Zipheir: another alternative in chicken might be something like #!u8"magic"
2021-02-27T17:29:45Z dieggsy: which you can do with set-sharp-read-syntax!
2021-02-27T17:30:28Z dieggsy: suppose that's non-standard, but we are talking about a specific implementation in any case
2021-02-27T17:30:35Z dieggsy: or you could provide both actually
2021-02-27T17:30:39Z dieggsy: i'm a fan of having to type less personally
2021-02-27T17:31:25Z Zipheir: Oh, interesting.
2021-02-27T17:31:35Z Zipheir: That's a bit closer to the original notation, indeed.
2021-02-27T17:32:43Z Zipheir: OTOH, I, at least, read that immediately as a shebang, which means something very specific.
2021-02-27T17:33:42Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Thanks!
2021-02-27T17:34:01Z dieggsy: Zipheir: the other thing i find annoying about srfi-10 is (at least in chicken) you have to quote the whole thing
2021-02-27T17:34:12Z dieggsy: so you'd need to type even more - '#,(u8 "magic")
2021-02-27T17:34:22Z dieggsy: ...i think
2021-02-27T17:34:38Z dieggsy: and i just find that unwieldy lol
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2021-02-27T17:40:17Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Well, #,(u8 "hello") works unquoted for me (csi 5.2.0).
2021-02-27T17:40:43Z dieggsy: Zipheir: Woah, can you show me your source code
2021-02-27T17:42:02Z Zipheir: It's just a file containing the reader macro (define-reader-ctor 'u8 ...) which I load into csi.
2021-02-27T17:42:23Z Zipheir: No magic, AFAICT.
2021-02-27T17:42:57Z dieggsy: Oh, you're right, how bizarre
2021-02-27T17:45:07Z Zipheir: Getting it to work with the compiler is another matter entirely.
2021-02-27T17:45:14Z dieggsy: Zipheir: wait, define it inside a module though
2021-02-27T17:45:28Z dieggsy: Zipheir: yeah, i was working off of compiled code
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2021-02-27T17:45:56Z dieggsy: i have a (define-reader-ctor ...) defined inside a compiled module, when i import it, i have to quote the whole thing to use it
2021-02-27T17:46:16Z Zipheir: Really.
2021-02-27T17:46:19Z dieggsy: to be fair, maybe this is also the case for #! syntax
2021-02-27T17:46:37Z Zipheir: So the unquoted syntax works in interpreted, but not compiled code...
2021-02-27T17:46:41Z dieggsy: let me try and create a minimal repro lol
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2021-02-27T17:48:12Z Zipheir: The (few) examples on wiki.call-cc.org all quote the #, syntax.
2021-02-27T17:49:53Z Zipheir: I suppose this makes sense, given that the "original" sharp syntax (vector literals) isn't self-quoting in R5RS.
2021-02-27T17:52:25Z Zipheir: Despite that, the compiler doesn't complain about unquoted #(1 2 3).
2021-02-27T17:52:43Z Zipheir: Maybe that's just CHICKEN moving toward R7RS.
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2021-02-27T17:56:39Z dieggsy: Zipheir: well, maybe there's something weird going on with my code
2021-02-27T17:57:08Z dieggsy: because i just did a minimal example and both #, and #! seem to work unquoted, even when compiled: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-02-27T12:57:14
2021-02-27T17:57:26Z dieggsy: So now i'm just confused
2021-02-27T17:58:39Z Zipheir: Oh, huh.  Let me try compiling that.
2021-02-27T17:59:36Z dieggsy: Zipheir:  to be fair, maybe i'm not compiling it the same way that an egg does it. i just did csc -Js
2021-02-27T17:59:53Z dieggsy: so many variables
2021-02-27T18:00:43Z Zipheir: dieggsy: You're also using ->string, which may do some tricks with external representations?  I'm not sure exactly how that procedure works.
2021-02-27T18:00:51Z dieggsy: oh gosh
2021-02-27T18:01:21Z Zipheir: The (chicken string) doc for ->string says only "Returns a string-representation of X.".
2021-02-27T18:03:55Z Zipheir: But that shouldn't affect anything.  The #,(str ...) syntax works unquoted, when compiled.
2021-02-27T18:03:57Z dieggsy: Zipheir: oh, here's my problem: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-02-27T13:04:08
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2021-02-27T18:04:22Z dieggsy: but maybe that's just me being dumb about the way i'm defining the syntax
2021-02-27T18:04:34Z dieggsy: but that is my original problem in my other code too, i think, and it's nothing to do with compiled or not
2021-02-27T18:05:18Z Zipheir: Can you show your csc command line?
2021-02-27T18:06:54Z Zipheir: Also, I get "Argument #1 to procedure `set-sharp-read-syntax!' has an invalid type: symbol. The expected type is: char" when compiling that.
2021-02-27T18:08:06Z Zipheir: That contradicts the CHICKEN documents, in which the first argument of set-sharp-read-syntax! is called CHAR-OR-SYMBOL.
2021-02-27T18:08:22Z Zipheir: *sigh*
2021-02-27T18:09:14Z dieggsy: Zipheir:  give me a sec, i think i've figured it out. what you're seeing is a warning, not an issue, and it's to do with how they've defined the type declaration but shouldn't affect the functionality
2021-02-27T18:09:42Z dieggsy: Zipheir: this would be the correct way to do this: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-02-27T13:09:57
2021-02-27T18:10:34Z dieggsy: Zipheir: it's subtle, but it's contrary to the example here: https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Module%20(chicken%20base)#set-record-printer
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2021-02-27T18:12:07Z dieggsy: because at the end of the day it is syntax, so doing what the example on the wiki shows (define-reader-ctor 'foo make-foo) doesn't quite cut it - it's trying to use the record result as an expression, which is invalid, so you end up having to quote it (which somehow fixes the issue, i'm not clear on this)
2021-02-27T18:12:32Z dieggsy: but if you define the syntax kind of as you would a macro, like in my paste above, all works well
2021-02-27T18:13:12Z Zipheir: Aha.
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2021-02-27T18:14:04Z Zipheir: Works now.
2021-02-27T18:16:20Z Zipheir: Quoted or unquoted, I still can't compile code that uses the #,() syntax.
2021-02-27T18:17:59Z dieggsy: Zipheir: how are you trying to do that though
2021-02-27T18:18:25Z Zipheir: csc test.scm testsharp.so
2021-02-27T18:18:51Z Zipheir: Where test.scm just imports the testsharp module and tries to display '#,(pt 5 7) or something.
2021-02-27T18:19:14Z Zipheir: Compilation fails with "invalid sharp-sign read syntax".
2021-02-27T18:19:21Z dieggsy: Zipheir:  you need to do something like test.scm -X testsharp
2021-02-27T18:19:39Z dieggsy: because since it's syntax, it needs to be loaded before compilation
2021-02-27T18:19:49Z dieggsy: the above works here, anyway
2021-02-27T18:19:50Z Zipheir: Aha. Perfect.
2021-02-27T18:20:01Z Zipheir: Thank you, oh csc sage.
2021-02-27T18:21:48Z dieggsy: Zipheir:  lol, not at all, just quick trial and error (i did know about -X though). i'm glad you asked, this was something bugging me about sharp syntax.
2021-02-27T18:30:24Z dieggsy: Zipheir: wait, this is still wrong
2021-02-27T18:30:44Z dieggsy: see chicken channel
2021-02-27T18:35:00Z Zipheir: ACK.
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2021-02-27T19:20:29Z jcowan: mdhughes: I heard back from ESR and he says he only has a paper version of IEEE Pilot and he has no clue where it is.
2021-02-27T19:21:15Z mdhughes: Well, if he does find it, it'd be a good thing to send to archive.org to scan.
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2021-02-27T19:26:51Z jcowan: I have offered to scan it myself.  But given the tone of http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=7244 I doubt he will spend much time looking.
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2021-02-27T19:29:22Z mdhughes: Yeah. Meanwhile, a whole generation of kids grew up with 8-bit (non-standard) PILOTs and had a great time.
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2021-02-27T19:37:17Z jcowan: I have also found modern rPilot and psPilot, which is written in Powershell.
2021-02-27T19:37:40Z jcowan: Probably an interpreter written in bash would be practical.  I don't know of any compilers other than ESR's, though.
2021-02-27T19:39:05Z jcowan: https://github.com/FreeTrav/psPILOT/blob/master/psPILOT.md gives pretty good detail when supplemented by ESR's critique: one can triangulate to recover the bare bones of the standard, I think.
2021-02-27T19:40:58Z jcowan: I have been thinking about how interactive languages like this can be made to work in either a CLI or a GUI implementation.  The basic difference is that in a CLI you are locked into a linear sequence of reads and writes on the terminal, where in a GUI form you can fill out answers in any order desired, and the program does not see them until you hit a button or the like.
2021-02-27T19:41:37Z jcowan: s/you/the user
2021-02-27T19:49:01Z mdhughes: That's why all the 8-bit PILOTs used line numbers. You couldn't refer to a line number, it used nice named labels, but it made editing possible.
2021-02-27T19:49:36Z mdhughes: And for input, the GUI would still present one question/answer at a time.
2021-02-27T19:50:28Z mdhughes: One point ESR missed in input is that most PILOTs have timeouts and character limits on A:, so you can make time trials in your quizzes and such.
2021-02-27T19:51:09Z mdhughes: T:Choose RED, BLUE, or YELLOW wire to defuse the bomb, you have 10 seconds!
2021-02-27T19:51:16Z mdhughes: A:
2021-02-27T19:51:19Z mdhughes: M:RED
2021-02-27T19:51:23Z mdhughes: JY:*BOOM
2021-02-27T19:51:24Z mdhughes: etc.
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2021-02-27T20:11:49Z jcowan: Thanks for that idea.
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2021-02-28T08:12:36Z dpk: re: conversation from Friday — note that JavaScript is also a type C language. as jcowan said, it says nothing about how good the language defined by the standard is
2021-02-28T08:13:06Z dpk: (JS has got surprisingly nice since ES6 and everything, but it's still got a lot of sharp edges left behind from the bad old days)
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2021-02-28T08:53:07Z chambln: hi
2021-02-28T08:53:32Z chambln: How can I write a procedure that turns certain quoted symbols into certain values? e.g. (f 'a 'b) => (1 2) where a and b are symbols defined within f as 1 and 2.
2021-02-28T08:55:54Z chambln: This doesn't work: (define (f . xs) (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (map eval xs)))
2021-02-28T08:56:11Z chambln: I get "variable a is not bound" :(
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2021-02-28T09:07:56Z chambln: got it
2021-02-28T09:08:24Z chambln: had to eval a quasiquoted let expression
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2021-02-28T14:16:54Z dieggsy: chambln:  curious what your use case is
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2021-02-28T14:42:14Z amirouche: s/must .../should be defined in the lexical scope where eval is executed/
2021-02-28T14:42:49Z amirouche: (or passed via the second argument of eval called 'environment')
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2021-02-28T18:46:33Z mangol: this is off topic, but what do you all use for a dictionary on your computer? as in, looking up the meanings of words in english and other languages.
2021-02-28T18:46:58Z mangol: i just use web searches but there has to be a better way. haven't found anything good for emacs or command line.
2021-02-28T18:47:25Z alexshendi: Hi, is there a guide to using Edwin IMAIL with stunnel somewhere?
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2021-02-28T19:00:54Z Zipheir: mangol: Ditto, I just use Wiktionary searches.  I wonder if they've got a JSON interface.
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2021-02-28T19:08:10Z amirouche: I think wordnet has the data, but i do not use it.
2021-02-28T19:08:28Z amirouche: wiktionary is not strongly structured.
2021-02-28T19:08:47Z amirouche: ditto re searches and wiktionary.
2021-02-28T19:09:32Z amirouche: wordnet db is an sqlite db the table and columns are not full words, so far I did not decode it.
2021-02-28T19:10:33Z amirouche: there is https://github.com/pasoevi/guile-words
2021-02-28T19:14:16Z mangol: thanks, guile-words looks very nice!
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2021-02-28T19:15:04Z mangol: it would be great if there was a standard dump format for all the free dictionaries. we could download those dumps onto our computer and feed them to a generic query interface
2021-02-28T19:15:33Z mangol: a dictionary is probably 10-100MiB so it would make the most sense to simply download everything for offline access
2021-02-28T19:15:56Z amirouche: that is wishful thinking, no need to mention the tech / algorithms problems, there is licensing issue.
2021-02-28T19:16:27Z amirouche: tech / algorithm problem ~ code
2021-02-28T19:18:01Z amirouche: even if, wiktionary is semi-structured with html, and on top of that there is a structure built by users ie. most pages look alike, it is not enough structured to just scrape the raw html (I read russian wiktionary is the most structured)
2021-02-28T19:18:53Z amirouche: i took several month or years, to be able to display the first paragraph of wikipedia when the mouse hover a link in another page.
2021-02-28T19:20:29Z mangol: true. wiktionary would be hard to scrape fully. but being able to look up by the base (non-inflected) form of a word would be useful start.
2021-02-28T19:20:43Z amirouche: tho there is https://github.com/LuminosoInsight/wikiparsec
2021-02-28T19:21:02Z mangol: i always wondered why there are no open source prorammers buying CD-ROM dictionaries and figuring out how to scrape them for command line use
2021-02-28T19:21:28Z amirouche: afaik, transliteration into ascii (if that is what is you call non-inflected) is not trivial, it is possible to use iconv, but it does not always work
2021-02-28T19:21:31Z mangol: the same way they defeated DVD copy protection, reversed Samba and such
2021-02-28T19:22:00Z mangol: it would make sense to buy a CD-ROM only for the data
2021-02-28T19:22:19Z amirouche: the reason wikidata lexeme effort is still low on data, is because they can't parse wiktionary (license is different CC0 vs. CC-by-sa)
2021-02-28T19:22:50Z amirouche: (also because of the license of wikidata, wiktionary enthusiast are not willing to help with any effort anyway)
2021-02-28T19:23:15Z amirouche: that is my narrow view, they are other dictionaries, but none is free/open.
2021-02-28T19:23:20Z mangol: interesting that there's an internal split
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2021-02-28T19:24:06Z mangol: i tend to use commercial dictionaries almost exclusively since it's often important that they get the nuances right. often compare more than one dictionary.
2021-02-28T19:24:14Z amirouche: here is dictionary that is closed: https://babelnet.org/about
2021-02-28T19:25:46Z mangol: wow, 500 languages!
2021-02-28T19:26:12Z amirouche: re split: there is (always?) drama inside communities, but from the two years I tried to co-op with wikidata, I learned about several "mis-handling" of wikimedia foundation (us) vs. the wikipedia foundation of other countries vs. wikimedian themselfs.
2021-02-28T19:28:06Z mangol: true, conflict is unavoidable. and wikimedia is extremely large scale.
2021-02-28T19:28:23Z amirouche: my personal xp is there dubbed my project "impossible" while I was asking for 50k euros. Then gave an undisclosed amount of money, to someone with cabal creds (ex-google ex-wikidata), not for one project, but two project that aim to become as bigger than wikipedia or wikidata aka. wikilambda.
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2021-02-28T19:28:27Z amirouche: but that is ok.
2021-02-28T19:28:42Z amirouche: I was a lone wolf strange and alien hacker etc...
2021-02-28T19:30:48Z amirouche: A few month after I gave hope, there was another event, in an effort to make (more) money with wiki-stuff, they decided it was time to re-explore the idea full html dumps... except there is such an effort already, but last time I checked they completly ignored that effort. That effort has a mailling list called 'wiki-stuff offline', they have their own ml at wikimedia + the software called
2021-02-28T19:30:50Z amirouche: kiwix.org
2021-02-28T19:31:13Z amirouche: also they funded kiwix.org several time.
2021-02-28T19:31:33Z amirouche: it is not like it was a wikimedia france or germany project only.
2021-02-28T19:31:56Z amirouche: rather off-topic, sorry.
2021-02-28T19:32:38Z mangol: no problem
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2021-02-28T20:24:05Z alexshendi: Hi, I'm trying (unsucessfully so far) trying to recompile scmutils-20200810 with mit-scheme 11.1? Where can  find some instructions?
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2021-02-28T20:34:22Z mangol: whoa: http://freshmeat.sourceforge.net/projects/oed2dict "oed2dict is a set of scripts that convert the full Oxford English Dictionary v2 (CD-ROM version 3.0) into the jargon and DICT file formats. These can then be consulted with any DICT compatible dictionary lookup program. The resulting DICT files are much faster to use when compared with the proprietary program from the original distribution, and are
2021-02-28T20:34:28Z mangol: significantly smaller, with the whole database only weighing around 190MiB."
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2021-02-28T20:36:55Z mangol: OED third edition is set to be completed in 2037 [sic] and cost £34 million
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2021-02-28T21:00:36Z dpk: there's a program in the Plan 9 contrib tree (that works on Unix under plan9port) to convert the data file from … i think the second version of the CD-ROM? … to the original SGML
2021-02-28T21:00:53Z dpk: Plan 9's dict program can then do lookups in it
2021-02-28T21:03:00Z dpk: bear in mind also that the OED2 is from 1989, but most of its content is from the early 20th century or earlier
2021-02-28T21:04:42Z dpk: most free dictionaries have similar problems too, being based on original content from the 19th century which is now in the public domain
2021-02-28T21:05:57Z dpk: WordNet is probably the best option, but bear in mind it's not really meant to be used as a dictionary but as a machine-readable thesaurus. it has glosses, but they're meant to be used for disambiguation, not as comprehensive definitions
2021-02-28T21:06:54Z dpk: if you'd like to use the OED, your best option if you live in the UK or the US is to get a public library card! all public libraries in the UK, and very many in the US, give their patrons home access
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2021-02-28T21:19:40Z amirouche: dpk: IIUC you pay to access a dictionary ?
2021-02-28T21:20:16Z dpk: as i say, public library patrons in the UK and much of the US get free access to the OED
2021-02-28T21:20:28Z amirouche: what does OED expand to ?
2021-02-28T21:20:33Z dpk: Oxford English Dictionary
2021-02-28T21:22:26Z amirouche: £34 million seems a little over priced..
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2021-02-28T21:23:54Z dpk: it will cost the OUP £34 million to write the dictionary, not £34 million to buy a copy ;-)
2021-02-28T21:24:49Z amirouche: ah! certainly :)
2021-02-28T21:25:09Z dpk: besides which, thanks to the swindle of having to pay a regular fee for access for the damn thing (which practically every university in the English speaking world, and many beyond, do, not to mention the public library subsidies), i believe the OED is now profitable for the first time in its history
2021-02-28T21:25:34Z mangol: :D
2021-02-28T21:25:37Z mangol: they comb through tons of text (books, newspapers, etc.) to find all the words in the English language, and add or update definitions for them. that probably employs more than a hundred people.
2021-02-28T21:26:15Z mangol: (:D re: profitability)
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2021-02-28T21:27:20Z amirouche: re profitability: it means OED _became_ a sustainable project on its own. It does not mean it was not profitable.
2021-02-28T21:28:56Z polezaivsani: apropos dictionaries, anybody know this https://gnu.org.ua/software/dico thing?
2021-02-28T21:29:08Z dpk: i believe the employed team of lexicographers is about 80 people. i'm curious where they get their quotation material from these days, as i know they stopped the paid reading programmes a couple of years ago, and the online form for volunteer quotation submissions appears to have been defanged at some point. most disappointingly, it no longer collects the name and contact details of people who submit quotations, so there will no longer be
2021-02-28T21:29:08Z dpk: tallies of the most prolific contributes
2021-02-28T21:29:37Z amirouche: (It became very clear in last few month, maybe that is journalist that take "wording shorctus" when they say or write "X lost money" in fact, they lost nothing but did not get the money they were expected to win. There is big difference)
2021-02-28T21:31:22Z dpk: (it's possible that the forms still work and lead somewhere where they actually get checked. but i wanted to submit a quotation for a new word a while ago, and found that you can submit a new word, but not a quotation to go with it any more? my suspicion is that that form leads directly to the circular file, knowing how many people think their road to fame is to invent a new word and 'get it in the dictionary' as some mark of legitimacy)
2021-02-28T21:32:10Z amirouche: circular file?
2021-02-28T21:32:43Z dpk: the waste paper basket
2021-02-28T21:32:53Z dpk: i.e. they are ignored completely and discarded
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2021-02-28T21:36:31Z mangol: has OED been subsidized mainly by Oxford University as the name says? does the UK government fund it?
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2021-02-28T21:38:28Z dpk: essentially, yes (to the former question), by the Oxford University Press (whose relationship to the university itself is … moderately complicated, but it is still essentially operated by and for the university). there was no direct UK government funding, but i suppose you could call the subscriptions paid for by public libraries 'government funding'
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2021-02-28T21:51:40Z amirouche: I just checked LiSP is cambridge press, clearly over priced but regular price for such books in the US. I bought the new edition for 10 times less.
2021-02-28T21:51:59Z mangol: oxford and cambridge have endowments in the ballpark of 10 billion USD. there are about 10 US universities richer than that, give or take.
2021-02-28T21:52:59Z amirouche: billion?
2021-02-28T21:53:04Z amirouche: like 10^9 ?
2021-02-28T21:53:22Z mangol: yes
2021-02-28T21:53:34Z amirouche: that is per year?
2021-02-28T21:54:05Z jcowan: No, that's wealth, not income
2021-02-28T21:54:15Z jcowan: They are billionaires.
2021-02-28T21:54:32Z amirouche: ok
2021-02-28T21:54:45Z amirouche: then my comment about OED profitability fits perfectly.
2021-02-28T21:54:50Z jcowan: (or milliardaires if you are thinking in French)
2021-02-28T21:55:00Z mangol: "giant hedge funds with a little sideline in education" as the saying goes
2021-02-28T21:57:27Z amirouche: let's change subject, shall we :)
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2021-02-28T21:57:37Z mangol: northwestern university (one home of PLT/Racket) is as rich as oxford or cambridge :D MIT is 2x that, Yale 3x, Harvard 4x.
2021-02-28T21:58:19Z amirouche: I have a perfect backacronym for SCM...: Semantic... Continum... Malice
2021-02-28T21:58:55Z mangol: SCM is still maintained :) https://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/SCM
2021-02-28T21:59:13Z amirouche: continuum that is two yous.
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2021-02-28T22:01:52Z jcowan: amirouche: Perhaps you didn't ask for enough money.  When the (fictional) Duchy of Grand Fenwick asked the U.S. for a long-term loan of US$5m to send Fenwickians to the moon, the U.S. thought that would be an embarrassingly small amount and gave them $50m outright.  Of course this was in 1962 when the U.S. was concerned about its international prestige.
2021-02-28T22:02:40Z amirouche: maybe, I was told the same.
2021-02-28T22:02:49Z jcowan: The bikeshedding principle has two parts: people argue endlessly about things that cost little, but typically sign off on things that cost a lot because they assume the due diligence has been done even when it hasn't.
2021-02-28T22:03:30Z amirouche: how does this relate to bikeshedding?
2021-02-28T22:05:16Z amirouche: got it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality
2021-02-28T22:08:15Z amirouche: that is exactly the situation I fall into with nstore and wikimedia.
2021-02-28T22:08:34Z amirouche: I am just wondering how to put the joke on them now.
2021-02-28T22:11:46Z amirouche: especially since I further reduce the space requierements below 1 time the size of the text format.
2021-02-28T22:12:06Z amirouche: reduced
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2021-02-28T22:13:46Z jcowan: Join a big foundation and become the grants officer.  Then tell them their request for funding is too small.
2021-02-28T22:14:22Z jcowan: WMs donation income was about US$120M last year.  I doubt they got all that by turning users upside down and shaking them.
2021-02-28T22:15:39Z amirouche: clearly the money is the wrong hands.
2021-02-28T22:16:31Z mangol: 120M pre-tax income? what's the usual tax on US donations for the donor and the recipient organization?
2021-02-28T22:16:50Z amirouche: I need to learn to shake hands and smile, I will buy a plastic body and replace the head with a mirror.
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2021-02-28T22:18:46Z jcowan: the WMF is tax-free because not for profit.
2021-02-28T22:19:14Z jcowan: There is no tax on donations as such, only on the sources of income.
2021-02-28T22:20:13Z jcowan: so if I donate part of my salary to the A Foundation and they give a grant to the B Foundation, there is no tax on any of that.
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2021-02-28T22:23:32Z amirouche: I will email jaffer about SCM backronym
2021-02-28T22:27:13Z mangol: SCM is a GNU project too. So GNU Schemes are at least MIT Scheme, Guile, Kawa, SCM, Mes
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2021-02-28T22:35:14Z amirouche1: The channel log of the month is 1.1M, the previous time it was as big is scheme-2020-04.txt 2020-04-30 23:57 1.1M  and before that scheme-2016-05.txt 2016-05-26 17:07 1.1M
2021-02-28T22:35:30Z amirouche1: Let's make record! 1.2M!
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2021-02-28T22:36:28Z amirouche1: Remains 1h25 hours before mars.
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2021-02-28T22:38:33Z mangol: https://oeis.org/ is a good source for interesting conversations about nothing in particular
2021-02-28T22:38:51Z mangol: the On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences
2021-02-28T22:39:54Z amirouche: I used that site for the first time two years ago to try to find the algorithm for nstore.
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2021-02-28T22:43:37Z amirouche: http://oeis.org/search?q=1+1+2+3+6+10+20+35+70+126&language=english&go=Search
2021-02-28T22:43:41Z amirouche: that is the sequence
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2021-02-28T22:48:25Z amirouche: the optimization I made goes from 10 to 6 in the sequence, so it means 6 * 1 / 10 I almost half the space requirement
2021-02-28T22:51:10Z amirouche: when I started the factor was 120, then 10 with the maximal chain algorithm, and now 6.
2021-02-28T22:52:30Z amirouche: 66% of the textual data is without compression using a dictionary, and without page-block compression, that should land in foundation 7.x
2021-02-28T22:52:51Z amirouche: s/block-compression/prefix-compression/
2021-02-28T22:55:02Z amirouche: dictionary compression can help a lot, but requires preprocessing. prefix compression will certainly help, for instance given the tuple (uid key value), a lot of KEY are the same and are colocated because of the permutation into (key value uid)
2021-02-28T22:56:56Z amirouche: 6 is the theorical factor, but in pratice the textual format is very noisy, packing the integer 12345689 into bytes already reduce the size.
2021-02-28T22:59:29Z amirouche: that is the bytes encoding of an integer is smaller than encoding that number as ascii string, also the pack procedure that not necessarly use 8 bytes for an integer, it can use less depending on the value of the integer. IIRC 0 is 2 bytes.
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2021-02-28T23:00:20Z amirouche: I made a mistake, it depends on the number : "0" is smaller than 0
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2021-02-28T23:06:50Z amirouche: rudybot: I am lost.
2021-02-28T23:07:07Z rudybot: amirouche: I was expecting Clojure to be a good fit, but I am lost in the OracleDrivers, maven, lein, etc, etc.
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2021-02-28T23:07:27Z amirouche: rudybot: what is a dyson sphere
2021-02-28T23:07:50Z rudybot: amirouche: By that time, the Dyson sphere around the sun will have provided enough energy to automate all mundane tasks and afford us all a life of leisure, hedonism, and immortability.
2021-02-28T23:08:38Z amirouche: I bet it does
2021-02-28T23:08:53Z amirouche: rudybot: what is the next step toward the last question?
2021-02-28T23:09:10Z rudybot: amirouche: ""One of the more unique unmanned aircraft concepts took a giant step toward reality this week when the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency inked an agreement with Boeing to build the SolarEagle, a plane capable of remaining at heights above 60,000ft for over five years. Boeing says the first SolarEagle under the $89 million contract could fly as early as 2014.""
2021-02-28T23:09:54Z amirouche: rudybot: how to reduce entropy?
2021-02-28T23:10:08Z rudybot: amirouche: instructions on how to dope intel hw rng in late production so as to reduce its effective entropy from 128 to 23 bits.
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