2021-01-01T00:05:34Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-01T00:07:33Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-01T00:15:55Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-01T00:17:28Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-01T00:28:37Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-01T00:31:30Z madagest joined #scheme 2021-01-01T00:31:31Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-01T00:33:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-01T00:34:29Z daviid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-01T00:35:01Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-01T00:43:07Z a92 joined #scheme 2021-01-01T00:44:34Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-01T01:08:23Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-01T01:11:49Z a92 quit (Quit: My presence will now cease) 2021-01-01T01:12:07Z a92 joined #scheme 2021-01-01T01:51:13Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-01T02:03:54Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-01T02:08:01Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-01T02:20:37Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-01T02:24:54Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-01T02:25:22Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-01T02:29:06Z Tirifto quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-01-01T02:38:22Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-01T02:57:44Z a92 quit (Quit: My presence will now cease) 2021-01-01T03:07:17Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-01T03:17:37Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-01T03:19:01Z miyuki1534 joined #scheme 2021-01-01T03:51:03Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-01T03:53:25Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-01T04:02:47Z madagest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-01T04:11:07Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-01T04:12:02Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-01-01T04:13:23Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-01T04:13:27Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-01T04:13:27Z skapate is now known as skapata 2021-01-01T04:20:57Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-01T04:32:28Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-01T04:35:24Z mdhughes: So build it on Kawa! 2021-01-01T04:37:55Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-01T05:05:59Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-01T05:50:05Z badcfe quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-01T06:11:12Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-01T06:14:41Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-01T06:36:24Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-01T06:48:05Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-01T06:56:23Z miyuki1534 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-01T07:05:33Z ym555 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-01T07:13:06Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-01T07:22:26Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-01T07:32:30Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-01T07:48:16Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-01T07:59:50Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-01T08:08:16Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-01T08:29:28Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-01T08:29:45Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T08:36:07Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-01T08:43:31Z sgibber2018 joined #scheme 2021-01-01T09:06:17Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-01T09:06:28Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-01T09:06:39Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-01T09:06:39Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-01T09:06:39Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-01T09:08:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-01T09:42:33Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-01T09:48:13Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-01T09:49:20Z ManDay: Yet another time I used `eqv?` incorrectly. It "turns out" that it can't be used to compare strings, as in (eqv? "Abc" (string-join (list "Ab" "c") "")) -> #f 2021-01-01T09:49:34Z Riastradh: equal? or string=? 2021-01-01T09:49:40Z ManDay: But I read in man guile: "‘eqv?’ extends ‘eq?’ to look at the value of numbers and characters." 2021-01-01T09:49:48Z ManDay: Oh, I just realized 2021-01-01T09:50:00Z ManDay: it means "characters" as in chars, not the characters of strings! 2021-01-01T09:50:08Z Riastradh: yep 2021-01-01T09:50:24Z ManDay: well, let's pretend I've never been here 2021-01-01T09:50:32Z ManDay quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T09:52:39Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-01T09:53:40Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-01T09:57:25Z gproto23 joined #scheme 2021-01-01T09:57:38Z gproto23 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:06:09Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-01T10:06:45Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:06:54Z ManDay: I've got more (potentially silly) questions yet! 2021-01-01T10:07:33Z ManDay: Trying to pipe in a (system) call, I found that the pipe character ("|") needs to be escaped, but I find no hint as to why 2021-01-01T10:07:40Z ManDay: What does it do if not escaped? 2021-01-01T10:07:46Z sgibber2018 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-01T10:08:02Z ManDay: (I can't recall any other language where | needs to be escaped, either) 2021-01-01T10:08:28Z Riastradh: `system' is not standard; what Scheme are you using and what made you conclude that | needs to be escaped? 2021-01-01T10:08:56Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-01T10:09:09Z ManDay: guile 2021-01-01T10:09:20Z ManDay: It says it's in R7RS, though 2021-01-01T10:09:34Z ManDay: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/String-Syntax.html 2021-01-01T10:11:16Z Riastradh: Presumably that's for the symbol notation |foo bar baz|. What makes you conclude it a connection to `system'? 2021-01-01T10:11:21Z Riastradh: it has a 2021-01-01T10:11:55Z ManDay: Nothing, I just wanted to mention why I wanted to use |. 2021-01-01T10:12:08Z ManDay: I just found out that something must have gone wrong on the terminal, coincidentally 2021-01-01T10:12:20Z Riastradh: What are you trying to do with system? 2021-01-01T10:12:42Z ManDay: I thought I got an error when I used the | unescaped. but when I tried it just now, it worked fine. still, I don't understand why it needs to be escaped in strings 2021-01-01T10:12:58Z Riastradh: It doesn't. 2021-01-01T10:13:02Z ManDay: Riastradh: just some debugging, nothing serious, nothing long term 2021-01-01T10:13:23Z ManDay: Uh yes, what I meant: Why it *can* be escaped in strings 2021-01-01T10:13:27Z Riastradh: It's just that the same set of escapes work for "foo bar baz" (strings) and |foo bar baz| (symbols), and for strings you'll need to escape \" while for symbols you'll need to escape \|. 2021-01-01T10:13:48Z ManDay: Ah, okay! 2021-01-01T10:14:00Z ManDay: That's not very clear from the documentation there 2021-01-01T10:14:02Z ManDay: thanks! 2021-01-01T10:14:34Z Riastradh: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Symbol-Read-Syntax.html 2021-01-01T10:15:14Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-01T10:15:29Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:16:05Z ManDay: Yes, I know of the symbol syntax, but the \| escape is mentioned under strings (and it works in strings, too) 2021-01-01T10:18:49Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:18:58Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:20:25Z rotty joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:22:49Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:22:58Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:23:23Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:23:33Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:24:39Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:24:48Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:25:24Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:25:33Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:26:49Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:26:59Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:31:27Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:31:36Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:32:49Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:32:58Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:33:51Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:34:01Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:37:41Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:37:52Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:40:41Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:42:27Z ManDay: I have a problem with open-output-port. I have defined and exported (bash) a function `dot_view` and running `type dot_view` from either (system) or (open-output-port) correctly prints: dot_view () 2021-01-01T10:42:29Z ManDay: { 2021-01-01T10:42:31Z ManDay: cat | mpv --pause <(command dot -Tpng "$@") 2021-01-01T10:42:33Z ManDay: } 2021-01-01T10:42:59Z ManDay: Excuse me: open-ouput-PIPE 2021-01-01T10:43:48Z ManDay: but when I try to pipe into that pipe (as it works outside of guile), I seem to be getting an error from mpv: 2021-01-01T10:43:50Z ManDay: [file] Cannot open file '<(command dot -Tpng )': No such file or directory 2021-01-01T10:43:52Z ManDay: Failed to open <(command dot -Tpng ). 2021-01-01T10:44:00Z ManDay: Does anyone understand why this happens? 2021-01-01T10:45:57Z Riastradh: What is your Scheme code? 2021-01-01T10:46:47Z Riastradh: Note that <(...) is not POSIX shell syntax; it's a bash/zsh extension. Handy for interactive use but not reliable in scripts. 2021-01-01T10:47:06Z ManDay: (define (sti.prompt sti) 2021-01-01T10:47:08Z ManDay: (let ((port (open-output-pipe "dot_view"))) 2021-01-01T10:47:10Z ManDay: (display (sti->string sti) port) 2021-01-01T10:47:12Z ManDay: (close-pipe port))) 2021-01-01T10:47:36Z ManDay: Riastradh: Thanks for the hint. However, I only have bash, so there is no risk of this going wrong (and it's only for debug purposes) 2021-01-01T10:47:54Z Riastradh: So /bin/sh is bash on your system? That would be pretty unusual. 2021-01-01T10:47:59Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:48:15Z ManDay: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Sep 2 18:54 /bin/sh -> bash 2021-01-01T10:48:32Z ManDay: I only know it that way ^^ 2021-01-01T10:48:57Z Riastradh: Most Linux systems I encounter these days have dash for /bin/sh. 2021-01-01T10:49:40Z Riastradh: Anyway, what's the _full_ code that reproduces the symptom? 2021-01-01T10:50:18Z ManDay: one sec, I'll cook something up 2021-01-01T10:52:50Z ManDay: (import (ice-9 popen)) (let ((port (open-output-pipe "dot_view"))) (display "" port) (close-pipe port)) 2021-01-01T10:53:01Z ManDay: with "dot_view" defined and exported as mentioned above. 2021-01-01T10:53:06Z Riastradh: What's the purpose of `cat |' here, and why are you piping anything into mpv if you're also specifying a file? 2021-01-01T10:53:14Z Riastradh: `Defined and exported' meaning what? 2021-01-01T10:54:05Z ManDay: Riastradh: the cat | is some bash trick 2021-01-01T10:54:16Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-01T10:54:18Z amirouche: what is the purpose of dot_view? 2021-01-01T10:54:20Z Riastradh: You need to give the _complete files_, and explain the directory structure, and how you're invoking it, or work to reduce the test case if that's too difficult. 2021-01-01T10:54:20Z ManDay: i don't remember the details but it has something to do with multiple consumers of stin 2021-01-01T10:54:35Z ManDay: amirouche: display a dot graph 2021-01-01T10:54:39Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:54:45Z amirouche: then what is the purpose of mpv? 2021-01-01T10:54:51Z ManDay: display? 2021-01-01T10:54:57Z ManDay: mpv displays the picture 2021-01-01T10:55:24Z ManDay: Riastradh: I don't know what you mean. I gave you the entire scheme code. 2021-01-01T10:55:33Z ManDay: so in order to reproduce it, you run: 2021-01-01T10:55:50Z amirouche: so you want to display the output of dot, without producing an intermediary file? is that correct? 2021-01-01T10:55:57Z ManDay: dot_view( ) { cat | mpv --pause <(command dot -Tpng "$@") } ; export -f dot_view ; guile scheme_code.ss 2021-01-01T10:56:13Z ManDay: amirouche: yes. but dot_view works just fine when I use it normally. 2021-01-01T10:56:18Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T10:56:35Z Riastradh: What dot graph are you trying to display? 2021-01-01T10:56:35Z amirouche: my advice is to call to use an intermediary file, and then call xdg-open on that file 2021-01-01T10:56:40Z Riastradh: oy 2021-01-01T10:56:46Z Riastradh: please no 2021-01-01T10:57:03Z ManDay: Riastradh: that's not important, can't you see it doesn't even get to executing `dot`? 2021-01-01T10:57:10Z Riastradh: It is very important. 2021-01-01T10:57:10Z ManDay: That's why I just use "" in my example scheme code 2021-01-01T10:57:27Z ManDay: Why?! 2021-01-01T10:57:29Z Riastradh: You are tripping over your own shoelaces right now with shell script you don't understand. 2021-01-01T10:57:34Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T10:57:54Z ManDay: lol, what makes you think i don't understand the script? 2021-01-01T10:57:57Z Riastradh: So I'm suggesting you step back and state the goal, without reference to crazy bash hacks that you've copied & pasted. 2021-01-01T10:58:07Z amirouche: use an intermediate file create with mkstemp then pass that to mpv or xdg-open ;) 2021-01-01T10:58:14Z Riastradh: 10:53 < ManDay> i don't remember the details but it has something to do with multiple consumers of stin 2021-01-01T10:58:17Z ManDay: i wrote that script to view dot files, months ago. and it works fine. 2021-01-01T10:58:27Z Riastradh: You told me yourself you don't understand it! 2021-01-01T10:58:40Z ManDay: just because I don't remember the purpose of some hack it doesn't mean that I don't understand what the script does 2021-01-01T10:58:49Z ManDay: this is really fruitless of a discussion now 2021-01-01T10:58:52Z amirouche: I can not understand the bash line. 2021-01-01T10:59:02Z Riastradh: Here's what I _think_ you're trying to do: 2021-01-01T10:59:12Z Riastradh: Given a dot file, say foo.dot, convert it to a png and display it with mpv. 2021-01-01T10:59:23Z ManDay: no. dot_view takes a graph on stdin 2021-01-01T10:59:43Z Riastradh: OK. So given a dot file on stdin, convert it to a png and display it with mpv. 2021-01-01T10:59:46Z ManDay: as I said: I can use it just fine outside of guile (piping the output of guile into it) 2021-01-01T11:00:01Z ManDay: amirouche: do you know what <() does? 2021-01-01T11:00:13Z Riastradh: Is that accurate? 2021-01-01T11:00:13Z amirouche: ManDay: yes 2021-01-01T11:00:39Z Riastradh: And do you have an example dot graph to examine? (in a file, with no Scheme involved) 2021-01-01T11:00:44Z Riastradh: If so, try this: 2021-01-01T11:00:52Z Riastradh: dot -Tpng < foo.dot | mpv --pause - 2021-01-01T11:00:55Z ManDay: amirouche: then you can see that "dot" in the bash line consumes stdin (so would mpv, hence that heck with cat) and turns it into a stream which is fed into mpv 2021-01-01T11:01:18Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T11:01:20Z Riastradh: If that works, then try the following Scheme logic: 2021-01-01T11:01:22Z amirouche: ManDay: what does the $@? 2021-01-01T11:01:29Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T11:01:40Z ManDay: Riastradh: ah thanks, that's better indeed 2021-01-01T11:01:48Z Riastradh: (let ((port (open-output-pipe "dot -Tpng | mpv --pause -"))) (display dotgraph port) (close-pipe portt)) 2021-01-01T11:01:50Z ManDay: didn't know mpv took content on stdin 2021-01-01T11:01:52Z Riastradh: port, not portt 2021-01-01T11:02:07Z Riastradh: Then throw away your crazy bash script, because it's confusing you. 2021-01-01T11:02:14Z ManDay: well yes, I suppose your approach solves the problem. 2021-01-01T11:02:22Z ManDay: Riastradh: My bash script is not confusing me, lol 2021-01-01T11:02:34Z amirouche: that is the purpose of bash script ;) 2021-01-01T11:02:35Z ManDay: and although you solved the problem, it doesn't explain what goes wrong with my approach 2021-01-01T11:03:16Z ManDay: amirouche: "$@" just accepts additional arguments if needed. it's not in effect 2021-01-01T11:03:33Z ManDay: (it forwards the arguments passed into the function to dot) 2021-01-01T11:03:39Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-01T11:04:26Z ManDay: thank you Riastradh! 2021-01-01T11:05:16Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-01T11:08:05Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-01T11:10:05Z Riastradh: If you want to keep a dot_view command, I suggest you use this: dot_view () { dot -Tpng "$@" | mpv --pause -; } 2021-01-01T11:10:56Z Riastradh: That will either accept stdin, or read from a file passed as an argument, and works in any POSIX shell, and doesn't have any crazy bash hacks you don't understand. 2021-01-01T11:11:13Z ManDay: yes, that's what I did already following your suggestion ;) 2021-01-01T11:11:58Z ManDay: Riastradh: lol, why are you so obsessed with my bash hack and that I don't remember the details about it anymore 2021-01-01T11:12:17Z ManDay: fwiw, I'm trying to dig out the discussion that led to me doing this from #bash, but I need someone to recover it from logs, because I cant 2021-01-01T11:12:23Z ManDay: just so you can read it 2021-01-01T11:12:34Z ManDay: and can stop telling me that I don't understand my own scripts :-p 2021-01-01T11:12:45Z Riastradh: Trying to discourage the proliferation of copypasta of crazy bash hacks! 2021-01-01T11:13:34Z Riastradh: (also discourage bash scripts, they're just not good -- if you want something that runs everywhere, use POSIX shell; if you want to write more serious programs, use Scheme or Python or whatever, not bash) 2021-01-01T11:13:42Z ManDay: i don't appreciate it you calling me a liar. i told you several times I wrote that script. 2021-01-01T11:13:49Z ManDay: it's not copy and paste of code I found somewhere 2021-01-01T11:15:27Z Riastradh: At the very least you should document what it does if it's not clear from the text. 2021-01-01T11:15:50Z amirouche: as bash usually is ;) 2021-01-01T11:16:07Z ManDay: i don't document bash scripts. i'm not a madman. 2021-01-01T11:16:23Z ManDay: also, I would have sworn back then that no one will ever see it and criticize me for it 2021-01-01T11:16:32Z Riastradh: I didn't call you a liar; I got the wrong impression from `the cat | is some bash trick' and `i don't remember the details but it has something to do with multiple consumers of stin' -- that made it sound like something you copied from stackoverflow. 2021-01-01T11:16:33Z ManDay: but I didn't expect... Riastradh 2021-01-01T11:17:02Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-01T11:17:37Z Riastradh: Apologies for sounding hypercritical. Trying to help by steering you toward things that are understandable and maintainable. 2021-01-01T11:18:35Z ManDay: Riastradh: curtesy of lopid on #bash: http://ix.io/2Kuj 2021-01-01T11:19:28Z Riastradh: heh 2021-01-01T11:19:29Z Riastradh: 2020-11-18 08:11:26Solitonmaybe you can mention some kind of goal so i have any idea what you're trying to do. 2021-01-01T11:19:40Z ManDay: so the part 2020-11-18 08:26:27 is what led up to me doing that 2021-01-01T11:20:20Z ManDay: Well Riastradh there are several approaches to a problem: a) just getting the job done and b) trying to understand what goes wrong and why 2021-01-01T11:20:44Z ManDay: i appreciate you and soliton (in that case) taking to a), but that doesn't mean b) is unjustified ;) 2021-01-01T11:21:55Z Riastradh: 2020-11-18 08:39:42 Soliton dude, stop using the broken example. 2021-01-01T11:22:06Z Riastradh: It looks like #bash had the same reaction as I did! 2021-01-01T11:25:19Z Riastradh: Now if, for some reason, you wanted to pass a file to mpv with <(...), rather than relying on `mpv -' to read from stdin, and you couldn't prevent mpv from reading commands from stdin, you should do...what #bash recommended, which is to redirect mpv's input from /dev/null so dot can take stdin: mpv --pause <(dot -Tpng) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leibniz_binary_system_1697.jpg 2021-01-02T17:59:20Z Zipheir: Wow. It's really powerful to actually see him writing out the idea, as it were. 2021-01-02T18:00:12Z X-Scale: So true, Zipheir. 2021-01-02T18:00:32Z Zipheir: IIRC Leibniz (a big fan of Chinese culture) was very interested in the I Ching because of its apparently binary-based structure. 2021-01-02T18:01:16Z X-Scale: I wonder if he could ever imagine those powers of 2 would radically and profoundly change the whole world 250 years later. 2021-01-02T18:01:47Z X-Scale: Indeed. 2021-01-02T18:02:16Z Zipheir: He might be disappointed that we haven't figured out his Project yet. 2021-01-02T18:05:45Z X-Scale: More of his writings on binary: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhCmrY6WkAAWjG0.jpg 2021-01-02T18:06:38Z X-Scale: He must have felt great when he observed those calculations in binary matched those in decimal. 2021-01-02T18:09:08Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-02T18:18:33Z Zipheir: In my (brief) university experience, Leibniz's metaphysics and cosmology got a section of the modern philosophy curriculum, but there was literally no mention of his mathematical and logical work. Which is really unfortunate. 2021-01-02T18:19:16Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-02T18:20:42Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-02T18:21:11Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-02T18:23:34Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-02T18:35:19Z webshinra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-02T18:35:41Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-01-02T18:43:12Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-02T18:49:28Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-02T18:59:50Z nikita` left #scheme 2021-01-02T19:00:13Z jcowan: Zipheir: "Academic freedom means an independent income." 2021-01-02T19:05:43Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-02T19:07:53Z nmeum: is anyone aware of a r7rs parser combinator library which works well with binary data? 2021-01-02T19:08:23Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-02T19:09:52Z nmeum: currently experimenting with (chibi parse), but it uses read-char internally which in turn checks for invalid utf8 sequences and thus doesn't really work for my purpose 2021-01-02T19:11:30Z aeth: Zipheir: I think that's usually under the math department, in a History of Mathematics course or something like that. Which, of course, doesn't count as a math class. 2021-01-02T19:11:31Z amirouche: there is guile-combinators 2021-01-02T19:11:35Z amirouche: nmeum: there is guile-combinators 2021-01-02T19:13:47Z aeth: Zipheir: Unfortunately, I think you'd have to teach history of mathematics or philosophy of mathematics under the math department because a lot of people, probably professors included, seem to be afraid of numbers. 2021-01-02T19:15:14Z aeth: just a quick search for "history of mathematics" on DDG and skimming pages of results seems to suggest that it's usually under the math departments. 2021-01-02T19:15:45Z Zipheir: aeth: That sounds about right. 2021-01-02T19:16:09Z aeth: Philosophy of mathematics is probably more split because there are logicians in philosophy departments who could probably handle that sort of thing. 2021-01-02T19:16:19Z nmeum: amirouche: url? 2021-01-02T19:16:38Z Zipheir: None of the math or physics-majoring undergrads I knew ever took such a class, and they're probably still fuzzy on who exactly Leibniz was. 2021-01-02T19:18:02Z aeth: well, yeah, because if you're in STEM you're probably graduating in 5 years instead of 4 already, and history of math probably doesn't do enough actual math to count towards the math major. 2021-01-02T19:18:05Z Zipheir: Credit requirements drive people away from anything that isn't a math credit, I guess. 2021-01-02T19:18:14Z Zipheir: Exactly. 2021-01-02T19:18:54Z Zipheir: One reason why I'm glad that it didn't occur to me at the time to major in "STEM". I actually had *time*. 2021-01-02T19:19:25Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-02T19:19:34Z aeth: And at the graduate level, if you're capable of doing a deep dive into history of mathematics or whatever you can probably also just write a function for a machine learning library instead, for like 20x the money. 2021-01-02T19:20:48Z Zipheir: Right. And this is why there's a dearth of good CS professors (anecdotally, according to one senior faculty member I asked). 2021-01-02T19:25:10Z Zipheir: jcowan: I think the point of that "academic freedom" quip (written by a struggling composer working in a coat factory on the Lower East Side, at the time) was simply: Academic environments reward academically-flavored work. 2021-01-02T19:25:39Z aeth: Zipheir: In particular, citations. 2021-01-02T19:27:36Z jcowan: Most sciences consider the history of that science completely outside their purview. 2021-01-02T19:27:58Z amirouche: nmeum: https://git.dthompson.us/guile-parser-combinators.git/ 2021-01-02T19:28:07Z aeth: jcowan: Math is kind of forced to do its own history because most historians went into that field because, at least in part, they hate numbers. 2021-01-02T19:28:11Z jcowan: "Papa Hegel he say that we learn from history that we learn nothing from history. Hegel was an optimist. I know people who can't learn from last week." 2021-01-02T19:28:20Z jcowan: --Chad C. Mulligan (John Brunner) 2021-01-02T19:28:56Z aeth: jcowan: Math's also in an interesting situation where it's history is still relevant mathematics. The Pythagorean theorem is still the Pythagorean theorem. Nobody uses science from the same era. 2021-01-02T19:29:07Z aeth: s/it's/its/ 2021-01-02T19:29:17Z kffiatek joined #scheme 2021-01-02T19:29:44Z Zipheir: " Math is kind of forced to do its own history..." lol, almost certainly true. :) 2021-01-02T19:29:52Z nmeum: amirouche: looks pretty dead though :D 2021-01-02T19:30:05Z nmeum: I guess I will just look into patching (chibi parse) to make it compatible with binary input 2021-01-02T19:30:23Z jcowan: IMO academic departments are an obsolete nuisance. Scholars work with their colleagues all over the world, where "colleague" is an ever-changing relationship. 2021-01-02T19:30:24Z aeth: Even almost completely irrelevant math, like from the Egyptians and Babylonians, can still pose interesting problems for math problems because... they really did make things harder back then. Notation matters a lot. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_fraction 2021-01-02T19:30:31Z amirouche: nmeum: yes, but it works, it has specific bits for char, but you can replace that with your own. dead != stable. 2021-01-02T19:30:47Z amirouche: nmeum: it will be easier with guile-parser-combinators. 2021-01-02T19:31:10Z amirouche: nmeum: I never wrapped my head around chibi parser DSL.. good luck anyway 2021-01-02T19:31:39Z nmeum: already used to (chibi parser) but so far I only used it with human-readable input formats 2021-01-02T19:31:44Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-01-02T19:32:13Z Zipheir: aeth: I think history matters quite a bit for understanding a subject. I can't imagine what learning calculus would have been like without some understanding of the historical situation of its invention. 2021-01-02T19:32:54Z aeth: Zipheir: on the other hand, if you're not too interested in applications (if you are, you're probably a physicist), then the history of calculus actually starts with analysis, which most math majors are (supposed to be) familiar with 2021-01-02T19:33:24Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-02T19:33:44Z aeth: The actual rigorous foundations for calculus are taught, and you do get to know a lot about 19th century math history through that. 2021-01-02T19:34:25Z aeth: It does pose an interesting situation, though. Calculus was used without (proper) foundations, purely for applications, for centuries. 2021-01-02T19:35:37Z oni_on_ion joined #scheme 2021-01-02T19:35:41Z aeth: Of course, you can completely miss Greek geometry and Aristotelian logic. 2021-01-02T19:35:43Z Zipheir: Indeed so. 2021-01-02T19:35:57Z oni-on-ion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-02T19:37:54Z Zipheir: Of course, the foundations of calculus are usually taught to students without much exposure to logic. Good luck making sense of ε/δ proofs if you don't understand quantifiers. 2021-01-02T19:38:55Z aeth: I mean, they even pretend to teach ε/δ in Calc I or Calc II (I forget which one)... and that basically just means memorizing whatever they actually test 2021-01-02T19:40:24Z Zipheir: It's non-trivial stuff. There's a reason it took centuries to develop rigorous foundations. 2021-01-02T19:40:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-02T19:40:56Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-02T19:41:02Z jcowan: well, natural languages do have quantifiers: \epsilon is "my number however small" and \delta is "your number which is even smaller". Thus e/d proofs become conversations. 2021-01-02T19:41:28Z Zipheir: True. That's a good way to present it. 2021-01-02T19:41:53Z jcowan: In mathematics, unlike buildings, the foundations may be replaced at will, and the superstructure goes on just as before. 2021-01-02T19:43:04Z Zipheir: Hence why non-standard (infinitesimal) calculus is the Right Thing, provided you're OK with hyperreal numbers. 2021-01-02T19:43:34Z aeth: Scheme doesn't have hyperreal numbers. 2021-01-02T19:43:37Z aeth: Or real numbers, really. 2021-01-02T19:43:38Z Zipheir: (Archimedes and Leibniz were.) 2021-01-02T19:44:12Z Zipheir: I think Gerry Sussman used hyperreals in some system he was working on. I can't remember what it was. 2021-01-02T19:49:40Z lucero quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-01-02T19:49:56Z lucero joined #scheme 2021-01-02T19:51:04Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-02T19:52:17Z Riastradh: `Infinitesimal numbers' is not a good way to think about things. What's really important is _transformations_ of numbers, and approximating those transformations. 2021-01-02T19:52:43Z jcowan: Scheme could support interesting subsets of the reals other than the rationals, though, such as pi*rational. 2021-01-02T19:52:56Z jcowan: (Technically speaking, Scheme doesn't even support integers or strings.) 2021-01-02T19:53:06Z Riastradh: Zipheir: You're probably thinking about scmutils, which has a higher-order automatic differentiation system. 2021-01-02T19:53:21Z Riastradh: jcowan: I recently added sin-pi*, asin/pi, &c., to MIT Scheme. 2021-01-02T19:53:35Z jcowan: Nice. 2021-01-02T19:53:50Z Riastradh: Also likewise some other popular trigonometric functions like arcexsecant divided by pi. 2021-01-02T19:55:39Z jcowan: huh, I remember talk of sec(\theta) - 1 in high school, but it was never named. The geometric interpretation makes it very clear why it's called that. 2021-01-02T19:57:02Z Riastradh: Yep, it's nice, as is versine. Pity that they have been erased from the textbooks on the grounds that you'll just use computers anyway, when exactly the same motivation for using exsecant and versine in 19th century navigation applies to numerical analysis on computers today. 2021-01-02T20:00:10Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-02T20:03:26Z Riastradh: (Not only did I add them to MIT Scheme, but I even added a use of versine, in computing complex expm1 with bounded relative error in complex norm, and bounded absolute componentwise error.) 2021-01-02T20:12:37Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-02T20:14:13Z emma: This channel is very enjoyable even when you don't really program very much, or have any particularly advanced scheme abilities, or spend a lot of time in an academic setting, because it's just kind of interesting to watch smart people talking about smart things. 2021-01-02T20:15:14Z jcowan: emma: Indeed. I doubt if there is anyone (except perhaps the redoubtable Riastradh) who understands *everything* said here. 2021-01-02T20:15:31Z emma: Yeah very possible. 2021-01-02T20:16:03Z kffiatek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-02T20:23:02Z aeth: rudybot: do you understand everything? 2021-01-02T20:23:13Z rudybot: aeth: get something that does not do everything, you'll be met with facebook users who don't understand why you can't share images in group chats, etc, etc 2021-01-02T20:30:42Z mangol: Riastradh: any Scheme integration projects you would suggest should be started within the next 2 years? can be unreasonable ones. 2021-01-02T20:31:29Z mangol: John kind of put you on the spot there, without intending to :p 2021-01-02T20:31:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-02T20:33:04Z mangol: jcowan: do you have any besides R7RS-large and yesterday's microsoft scheme world domination running gag? 2021-01-02T20:34:06Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-02T20:34:59Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-02T20:36:47Z ces joined #scheme 2021-01-02T20:41:27Z ces quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-02T20:50:19Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-02T20:52:10Z barbanegra left #scheme 2021-01-02T21:02:49Z tp47 joined #scheme 2021-01-02T21:03:14Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-02T21:04:02Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-02T21:04:36Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-02T21:08:37Z edgar-rft eagerly awaits R8RS-huge 2021-01-02T21:08:49Z aeth votes for the name R7RS-XL 2021-01-02T21:09:33Z aeth: Then R7RS-XXL, then R7RS-X3L, R7RS-X4L, etc. 2021-01-02T21:10:37Z aeth: because now you're adding not just 'revised', but also 'extra' 2021-01-02T21:12:26Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-02T21:13:13Z edgar-rft: I'm thinking more in the old-school Scheme tradition, like R8RS-huge, R9RS-monstreous, R10RS-insane, R11RS-totally-nuts, R12RS-fucked-up-beyond-recognition, etc. 2021-01-02T21:13:46Z aeth: R7RS-ultra, R7RS-extreme, R7RS-with-raytracing... 2021-01-02T21:14:15Z edgar-rft: with-superman-powers :-) 2021-01-02T21:16:06Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-02T21:18:42Z yunlei joined #scheme 2021-01-02T21:19:30Z mangol: my vote goes to R7RS-with-ghost-in-the-shell-REPL 2021-01-02T21:24:16Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-02T21:24:41Z yunlei left #scheme 2021-01-02T21:33:14Z ech joined #scheme 2021-01-02T21:41:17Z amirouche: :) 2021-01-02T21:53:32Z jcowan: A truly interactive front end to scsh might be interesting 2021-01-02T21:54:12Z mangol: BTW the current benchmark for a large language should probably be something like Mathematica or the Unreal Engine, so the scope of R7RS-large as planned is entirely reasonable 2021-01-02T21:54:40Z mangol: or Autocad or Emacs 2021-01-02T21:57:16Z wasamasa: I'll take the scope of Emacs is entirely reasonable 2021-01-02T21:58:59Z tp47 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-02T22:08:14Z mdhughes_ joined #scheme 2021-01-02T22:08:14Z mdhughes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-02T22:08:19Z mtld: what do you mean by comparing to the unreal engine as a language? 2021-01-02T22:09:04Z mangol: i haven't looked at the docs but i imagine it has built-in scripting as well as a C++ API, and a huge library of useful routines for all kinds of things 2021-01-02T22:09:27Z mangol: APIs and languages are gradually merging into the same concept 2021-01-02T22:09:55Z mangol: the main thing that's more language than library, are the fundamental combinators 2021-01-02T22:10:06Z mangol: but that's a really miniscule part of a big software system 2021-01-02T22:10:52Z mangol: and big APIs eventually tend to find out they need more flexible combinators, so they start out as library and become language 2021-01-02T22:11:19Z mangol: complex command line syntaxes tend to become more and more language-like over time, 2021-01-02T22:11:52Z mangol: the Lisp insight is just to make it a language from the start. why resist the natural flow of things? 2021-01-02T22:13:12Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-02T22:18:28Z mdhughes_: Obvs the correct comparison is Jak & Daxter. 2021-01-02T22:22:45Z mangol: the game where Lisp was used to write the in-game objects and live-update them onto the running game console? 2021-01-02T22:23:24Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-02T22:28:05Z daviid` joined #scheme 2021-01-02T22:28:36Z daviid` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-02T22:29:32Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-02T22:32:59Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-02T22:33:40Z Tirifto quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-01-02T22:37:15Z mdhughes_: Yes. Also everything Naughty Dog did, but J&D's peak Lisp. 2021-01-02T22:43:09Z mdhughes_ is now known as mdhughes 2021-01-02T22:44:53Z mangol: it would be too sad if peak lisp is behind us 2021-01-02T22:45:12Z mangol: we should take all the open source lisp code in different dialects, put it in one OS distro and wire it together into something usable 2021-01-02T22:45:50Z mangol: then replace the kernel underneath with a lisp kernel once those are ready. doesn't matter if the kernel takes 5 years or 10 years 2021-01-02T22:46:47Z mangol: the same lisp code should work on a unix kernel and on a lisp kernel, since the lisp kernel will never catch up to unix in features there will always be some need to use the latter 2021-01-02T22:47:59Z mangol: the main thing with programming on unix is, we are subconsciously guided to use unix tools for problem decomposition, not lisp tools, once we get into large scale systems 2021-01-02T22:49:16Z mangol: so we'd need some glue on Unix to use lisp abstractions for large-scale problems as well as small-scale ones 2021-01-02T22:49:28Z mdhughes: I'm all for it being past Lisp's peak, and saner smaller Scheme taking over. 2021-01-02T22:50:53Z mangol: using scheme for everything bears an uncomfortably close resemblance libertarian seasteading projects 2021-01-02T22:50:58Z mdhughes: And Scheme works quite nicely with the Unix philosophy. Make small tools, loosely joined. scsh was fun, but we *have* shells, it's programs that we lack. 2021-01-02T22:51:13Z mangol: as soon as scheme is big enough to write systems like autocad and unreal engine, it's unlikely to be as clean as you want 2021-01-02T22:51:28Z mangol: integration is what we lack. on every OS. 2021-01-02T22:51:48Z mangol: windows is even worse than Unix re: many aspects of integration. 2021-01-02T22:53:04Z mangol: if you want to put scheme buildings in a unix city, with unix responsible for paving the streets and making the other infrastructure, that's legit. 2021-01-02T22:53:14Z mangol: but it's a different goal from making a lisp city 2021-01-02T22:53:17Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-02T22:53:17Z mdhughes: I find Scheme pretty useful for low-level system hacking on the Mac & BSD, presumably on lesser Unix-likes. 2021-01-02T22:54:17Z mangol: true though. gambit FFI can be quite nice for exploring C libs. 2021-01-02T22:55:04Z mangol: anyway, unix integration tools work really well, with the proviso that they are clumsy instruments 2021-01-02T22:55:20Z mangol: you always need to fit the problem to the tools, often with great effort 2021-01-02T22:56:45Z mangol: care about which file descriptors you're using and things like that 2021-01-02T22:57:04Z mangol: everything involves parsing 2021-01-02T23:04:02Z xelxebar_ joined #scheme 2021-01-02T23:04:03Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-02T23:33:37Z jcowan: bash suxxors as a programming language, hence scsh 2021-01-02T23:34:00Z a92 joined #scheme 2021-01-02T23:34:22Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-02T23:34:26Z mangol: R7RS-with-Ghost-in-the-Scheme-Shell 2021-01-02T23:48:50Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-03T00:06:48Z a92 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-03T00:11:08Z a92 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T00:39:07Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T00:49:37Z a92 quit (Quit: My presence will now cease) 2021-01-03T00:52:43Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-03T00:55:54Z Zenton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-03T00:58:31Z Zenton joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:02:59Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:03:46Z a92 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:04:04Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-03T01:04:05Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-03T01:06:13Z kam1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:13Z aeth quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z elflng quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z sxmx quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z mangol quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z grobe0ba quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z xsperry quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z jboy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z mario-goulart quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z cross quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z Formbi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z hugo1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z yosafbridge quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:14Z cpape quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T01:06:42Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:03Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z mangol joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z grobe0ba joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z jboy joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z cross joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z Formbi joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z hugo1 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:32Z cpape joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:09:40Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-03T01:10:10Z kam1 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-03T01:10:10Z sxmx quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds) 2021-01-03T01:10:47Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:11:03Z nmeum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T01:11:40Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:11:56Z nmeum joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:17:13Z miyuki1534 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:22:28Z mtld quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-03T01:28:24Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T01:29:24Z raingloom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T01:52:45Z teardown_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-03T01:53:17Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:04:11Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-03T02:05:31Z kam1 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:06:02Z kam1 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-03T02:10:05Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:13:23Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T02:15:09Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:18:03Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T02:22:30Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-03T02:22:51Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:33:55Z oni_on_ion is now known as oni-on-ion 2021-01-03T02:34:37Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-03T02:34:51Z stzsch joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:34:57Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:35:04Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:35:21Z DGASAU`` joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:35:54Z Formbi- joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:36:01Z miyuki15` joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:36:02Z cpape` joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:36:03Z mario-go` joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:36:06Z grobe0ba_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:36:29Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:36:49Z jboy- joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:38:36Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:38:45Z some02 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:38:48Z cross_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:38:49Z elflng_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:38:51Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:38:57Z m1dnight1 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:39:10Z mangol_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:39:24Z ohama quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-03T02:39:48Z ggoes_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:39:50Z ohama joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:40:53Z sp1ff` joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:41:25Z Riastrad1 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:41:35Z emacsoma1 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:43:41Z yosafbridge` joined #scheme 2021-01-03T02:43:51Z miyuki1534 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z Riastradh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z emacsomancer quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z hugh_marera quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z sp1ff quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z sm2n quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z stzsch|2 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z DGASAU` quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z lockywolf quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:52Z sudden quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z m1dnight_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z aeth quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z elflng quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z mangol quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z grobe0ba quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z xsperry quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z jboy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z mario-goulart quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z cross quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z Formbi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:53Z hugo1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:54Z yosafbridge quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:54Z cpape quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-03T02:43:54Z grobe0ba_ is now known as grobe0ba 2021-01-03T02:44:10Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2021-01-03T03:11:38Z sgibber2018 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T03:12:54Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-03T03:14:22Z a92 quit (Quit: My presence will now cease) 2021-01-03T03:18:25Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T03:20:11Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-01-03T03:49:57Z lucero quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-03T03:53:56Z Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 2021-01-03T04:01:43Z codingquark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-03T04:50:43Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T04:53:42Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-03T05:16:07Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-03T05:30:23Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-03T05:31:06Z miyuki15` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T05:35:11Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-03T05:48:49Z xsperry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-03T06:03:46Z mdhughes: bash is poison. ksh is a tolerable batch processing language, & zsh is a really good batch & interactive environment. But use a real language for anything that gets to 20-50 lines. 2021-01-03T06:04:25Z mdhughes: When I rewrote my build script from zsh to Scheme, it tripled in length before I even got anything new added. 2021-01-03T06:05:19Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-03T06:21:27Z gioyik_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-03T06:27:17Z elflng_ is now known as elflng 2021-01-03T06:30:47Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-03T06:32:07Z dan64- quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-01-03T06:32:31Z dan64 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T07:11:19Z Zipheir: i.e. composable coreutils functions instead of binaries glued together with pipes. 2021-01-03T07:11:26Z Zipheir: Sorry, ww. 2021-01-03T07:14:28Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-03T07:29:37Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-03T07:45:21Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-03T08:26:47Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-03T08:48:43Z mario-go` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2021-01-03T08:49:00Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2021-01-03T08:56:43Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-03T09:08:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T09:11:48Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-03T09:15:36Z Ekho quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-03T09:23:11Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T09:31:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T09:32:51Z Ekho joined #scheme 2021-01-03T09:50:07Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-03T10:01:48Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-03T10:47:11Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-03T11:24:37Z lucero joined #scheme 2021-01-03T11:27:13Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-03T11:39:44Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T11:44:42Z amirouche: Seems like there is not other to bind with c++ but first create c bindings :/ 2021-01-03T11:45:46Z amirouche: see https://github.com/arximboldi/schmutz but it requires custom c++ code, so dead end on my side. 2021-01-03T11:52:11Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-03T12:08:41Z sgibber2018 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-03T12:12:42Z joshcom joined #scheme 2021-01-03T12:37:43Z tatsumaru joined #scheme 2021-01-03T12:37:56Z tatsumaru: what do you think Einstein meant with this quote? I never teach my pupils; I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn. 2021-01-03T12:49:09Z mangol_ is now known as mangol 2021-01-03T13:08:55Z miyuki1534 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T13:20:07Z miyuki1534 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T13:26:29Z joshcom quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-03T13:34:28Z FeLys2021andros is now known as Lysandros 2021-01-03T13:39:33Z tatsumaru left #scheme 2021-01-03T13:45:55Z msirabella quit (Quit: Goodbye, World!) 2021-01-03T13:46:10Z mjsir911 joined #scheme 2021-01-03T13:54:15Z Formbi- is now known as Formbi 2021-01-03T13:56:03Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-03T14:14:26Z oxum quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-01-03T14:18:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-03T14:28:18Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-03T14:29:50Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-01-03T14:42:17Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-03T14:51:15Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-03T14:51:38Z codingquark joined #scheme 2021-01-03T14:57:49Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-03T15:04:20Z Irvise[m]: amirouche: sadly, that is one of the reasons I do not really love c++. One cannot bind anything to it :( one must first rewrite the c++ code in c :( 2021-01-03T15:05:05Z Irvise[m]: That is something that amazes me, so many people work with c++ and python. But of course, most either do the c interface manually or use something like swig 2021-01-03T15:05:40Z Irvise[m]: And the reason that the swig creator left was that it was becoming a mess to interface c++ with anything else 2021-01-03T15:07:20Z amirouche: :/ 2021-01-03T15:07:54Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T15:07:58Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-03T15:09:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-03T15:19:45Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-03T15:30:52Z mtld joined #scheme 2021-01-03T15:32:21Z jboy- is now known as jboy 2021-01-03T15:33:49Z Riastradh: Zipheir: pipes are great means of composition 2021-01-03T15:33:54Z Riastradh: only good idea in early Unix 2021-01-03T15:38:41Z mtld quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-01-03T15:52:10Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-03T15:53:01Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-03T15:54:23Z ecraven: Irvise[m]: just do what clasp did, rewrite your entire language to be *in* c++, then at least *that* problem is solved :P 2021-01-03T15:54:57Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-03T15:57:16Z Tirifto joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:02:21Z tryte quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-03T16:02:21Z teardown quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-03T16:02:21Z ech quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-03T16:02:22Z cantstanya quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-03T16:02:22Z xelxebar_ quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-03T16:02:22Z madage quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-03T16:07:06Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:07:57Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:08:05Z ech joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:08:12Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:08:49Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:11:30Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:16:07Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:19:43Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T16:34:35Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T16:36:43Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:37:39Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:40:43Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T16:41:03Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T16:41:43Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T16:43:12Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:43:30Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:44:01Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:45:02Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-03T16:45:55Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-03T16:47:43Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T17:01:14Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-03T17:02:12Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Indeed they are a good idea. What's less wonderful is a userspace consisting of dozens of little programs which parse and unparse piped data in dozens of different formats. 2021-01-03T17:09:13Z Zipheir: Now, if we could replace the whole pile of programs with a single REPL with procedural equivalents for the various utilities, that would be something. The UNIX greybeards couldn't complain, as we'd still have little, composable pieces. But we'd have many more opportunities for abstraction. 2021-01-03T17:16:16Z mangol: Zipheir: word. 2021-01-03T17:17:05Z mangol: Riastradh: fork+exec process tree and single namespace filesystem are not good ideas? IMHO both are very elegant 2021-01-03T17:17:45Z mangol: ecraven: so it's settled that we'll never get rid of C++ :D in the future we'll have the joy of supporting Rust _and_ C++ 2021-01-03T17:26:12Z Zipheir: Oof. 2021-01-03T17:27:02Z gwatt: Considering that gcc and clang/llvm are all written in C++ you definitely can't get rid of C++. 2021-01-03T17:29:12Z Zipheir: tcc could compile Linux with a little help, last time I checked. I'm not so sure about the X server. Not that anyone's doing these things. 2021-01-03T17:30:34Z mangol: Zipheir: i've also been looking into tcc. we think alike. we should try to collaborate on some of this stuff (simplifying unix and pushing it toward lisp) 2021-01-03T17:30:39Z gwatt: I didn't realize that was still in active development 2021-01-03T17:31:19Z amirouche: guix use tcc iirc 2021-01-03T17:31:24Z mangol: there's a tcc "mob" repo and a semi-active mailing list for people who use it. openlisp uses it actively 2021-01-03T17:31:27Z amirouche: to do minimal bootstrap 2021-01-03T17:32:08Z mangol: amirouche: bootrapping GCC via GNU Mes -> tcc -> gcc 2 -> current gcc? 2021-01-03T17:33:20Z mangol: tcc runs 10x as fast as gcc (or something like that). obviously it's not as compatible, and the code generator is not as advanced, but the tcc codebase is massively simpler 2021-01-03T17:34:12Z Zipheir: tcc+musl is a great start for a toolchain, IMO. 2021-01-03T17:34:32Z mangol: a couple of people from the BSD world also worked on pcc. i don't know whether pcc or tcc is currently more advanced, probably tcc (it's a bellard project...) 2021-01-03T17:34:58Z mangol: Zipheir: agreed, with the proviso that if we're using it to host Lisp systems, many of those do FFI to C libraries via dynamic linking 2021-01-03T17:35:06Z Zipheir: It's really too bad about pcc. IIRC that was supposed to replace GCC in the OpenBSD world, but they've moved to clang instead. 2021-01-03T17:35:38Z mangol: yeah. openbsd and netbsd both investigated pcc AFAIK 2021-01-03T17:35:45Z mangol: but neither adopted it 2021-01-03T17:35:58Z Zipheir: mangol: I'm running CHICKEN with dload on a musl-based system right now. No issues, that I can tell. 2021-01-03T17:36:31Z gwatt: Does tcc support more than x86(64?) 2021-01-03T17:36:33Z mangol: don't know if pcc ever successfully compiled a BSD kernel. or tcc for that matter. tcc compiled a linux 2.x kernel. 2021-01-03T17:36:35Z Zipheir: In general, everything Just Works on musl these days (except blobs that expect to link to glibc). 2021-01-03T17:36:39Z mangol: gwatt: ARM 2021-01-03T17:36:57Z mangol: Zipheir: good to know 2021-01-03T17:37:25Z mangol: on the Chicken mailing list, someone compiled it using tcc a while back 2021-01-03T17:37:37Z Zipheir: Well, that's really cool. 2021-01-03T17:38:13Z mangol: Gambit is really portable in principle, but making exotic Gambit builds tends to uncover bugs in C compilers... 2021-01-03T17:38:22Z mangol: or OS libraries 2021-01-03T17:40:20Z mangol: these are the up to date tcc resources: https://repo.or.cz/tinycc.git | https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/tinycc-devel 2021-01-03T17:41:41Z mangol: it would be fun to start a tcc-ports collection, similar to the cross-platform pkgsrc but everything builds using tcc. if only there was more time. 2021-01-03T17:41:58Z amirouche: more time or energy? 2021-01-03T17:42:01Z mangol: time 2021-01-03T17:42:08Z mangol: if only time were denser 2021-01-03T17:42:42Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-03T17:43:40Z Riastradh: You know pkgsrc supports multiple different compilers? 2021-01-03T17:44:34Z mangol: I suspected it does. but it's so massive. if we started porting C programs to work with tcc, there would probably be very few of them at first 2021-01-03T17:44:54Z mangol: like 15 programs/libraries or something. pkgsrc has thousands, and a fancy makefile system 2021-01-03T17:45:45Z mangol: programs would probably have to be patched quite a bit too for tcc to work. if pkgsrc uses gcc/clang most code should work with many fewer patches 2021-01-03T17:47:25Z mangol: Riastradh: do you know of any successful attempt to compile a netbsd kernel using anything simpler than gcc or clang? 2021-01-03T17:48:10Z Riastradh: half-finished attempts with pcc 2021-01-03T17:48:25Z Riastradh: Kernel might have built, actually, but userland definitely doesn't. 2021-01-03T17:49:32Z mangol: kernel is the important part. i've got my eye on a scheme userland. already did some experiments and planning. it's just a matter of finding the time. 2021-01-03T17:50:16Z mangol: there's already go and rust userlands. https://github.com/lassik/awesome-userland 2021-01-03T17:51:41Z mangol: if we have a scheme userland, where each POSIX utility is one R7RS library with a main procedure, it'll be easy to choose 2021-01-03T17:52:03Z mangol: whether to deliver each utility as a separate Unix executable, or all of them in one executable (a la Busybox), or all in one live Scheme system 2021-01-03T17:52:26Z mangol: one of the main virtues of Lisp is we can delay decisions about everything 2021-01-03T17:53:15Z mangol: if all utilities are loaded into a live scheme system, we can have a version of scsh where the command line commands are scheme procedures instead of external processes 2021-01-03T17:53:47Z mangol: and that whole shebang (no pun intended) can be put on top of a scheme kernel once those can handle programs of that size 2021-01-03T17:53:51Z ecraven: Open Schemera! 2021-01-03T17:54:03Z mangol: :D embrace and extend unix 2021-01-03T17:54:11Z notzmv quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-01-03T17:54:29Z mangol: schemera rhymes with chimera. good or bad omen? 2021-01-03T17:55:38Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-03T17:59:24Z mangol: - science rhymes with compliance. 2021-01-03T17:59:29Z mangol: - what doesn't rhyme with compliance? neurotoxin. 2021-01-03T18:05:25Z amirouche: what is the design of that scheme os or system. Is unix written with scheme? 2021-01-03T18:07:23Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-03T18:08:57Z mangol: I'd like to have versions some of the standard POSIX utilities written in scheme. enough to get C software to build and type usual shell commands. 2021-01-03T18:10:28Z mangol: the hard ones are sh, make, sed, grep. probably awk. 2021-01-03T18:11:37Z mangol: loko scheme is a scheme-on-the-metal kernel that can boot and already has some drivers. mimosa is a gambit-on-the-metal project. both loko and gambit aim to support r7rs, and most of the support is probably done. 2021-01-03T18:12:38Z Zipheir: Olin implemented an awk form for Scheme: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/awk 2021-01-03T18:12:44Z mangol: cool! 2021-01-03T18:13:26Z mangol: so we could adapt that 2021-01-03T18:13:30Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-03T18:13:36Z Zipheir: IMHO POSIX-in-Scheme is a poor fit, especially for the side-effecting "commands" like cp(1), etc. 2021-01-03T18:13:44Z mangol: someone implemented part of CMake for commmon lisp. possibly just the parser 2021-01-03T18:14:21Z mangol: POSIX essentials are needed to build programs and libraries written in C. that means either those POSIX tools are written in C as well, or in a HLL 2021-01-03T18:14:58Z Zipheir: If you need POSIX userspace utils, just load busybox. No need to reimplement all of those in Scheme, I think. 2021-01-03T18:15:48Z mangol: depends on your goals. there's no fundamental need to write anything in any particular language if you're satisfied with existing software 2021-01-03T18:16:02Z Zipheir: The advantage of a Scheme userspace would be as a superior interactive environment, rather than as Yet Another Coreutils. 2021-01-03T18:16:12Z mangol: yeah, that's one benefit 2021-01-03T18:16:19Z mangol: i'd like to have an OS with max amount of lisp, min amount of C 2021-01-03T18:16:58Z mangol: the userland utils are fairly easy to rewrite piecemeal, if 100% compatibility with POSIX and GNU isn't a requirement 2021-01-03T18:17:12Z Zipheir: Sure. In any case, busybox or the like could be a stop-gap. It can take a looong time to write all the POSIX utils. 2021-01-03T18:17:26Z mangol: can start by implementing the features that are useful for building the C software you want to build, then gradually add missing bits 2021-01-03T18:18:15Z mangol: yeah. i did my experiments on netbsd, which has its own libc and coreutils equivalents. a scheme userland could be mostly portable to any posix 2021-01-03T18:18:34Z Zipheir: These are nice enough models: https://git.suckless.org/sbase/ https://git.suckless.org/ubase Still unfinished, of course. 2021-01-03T18:19:04Z mangol: yeah! i was thinking of those exact same ones 2021-01-03T18:19:42Z mangol: ubase is the unportable bits (linux-only). those can be done in scheme too. i reimplemented dmesg in scheme as an experiment 2021-01-03T18:20:56Z mangol: anyway it's easy to start with c software and replace with scheme bit by bit. no need to do it in a particular order, or at a particular pace, so a lot of freedom. 2021-01-03T18:21:22Z Zipheir: Yeah, most of that stuff is just a wrapper around a couple of syscalls. 2021-01-03T18:21:48Z mangol: yep. on BSDs, a few sysctl() wrappers go a long way 2021-01-03T18:22:52Z Zipheir: What's really interesting to me is something other than flat data streams connecting these things. e.g. what would a (dmesg) call produce in a Scheme environment? 2021-01-03T18:23:10Z mangol: bsd + tcc + musl + scheme userland. are we edgy enough yet? :D set the hardware clock to TAI? 2021-01-03T18:23:27Z Zipheir: Hah. 2021-01-03T18:24:00Z Zipheir: Which BSD was it that compiled with tcc? 2021-01-03T18:24:18Z mangol: none AFAIK 2021-01-03T18:24:25Z mangol: Linux 2.x kernel with some patches did 2021-01-03T18:25:15Z mangol: to simplify the C compiler, might have better luck by finding some of the first GCC versions that had x86-64 support, and trying those 2021-01-03T18:26:00Z mangol: GCC 3.x probably. if/when everything you want builds with that, it's easier to figure out how much work it is to go for tcc compatibility. 2021-01-03T18:26:45Z mangol: the problem with old GCC versions is compiler bugs. scheme->c compilers like chicken and gambit can do quite unusual and advanced stuff as far as C code goes 2021-01-03T18:27:36Z mangol: so the everything might build, but have weird bugs. the GCC upgrade treadmill may be inescapable 2021-01-03T18:28:48Z Zipheir: Yeah. Perhaps the hardest thing to support with a small compiler would be the Scheme system itself. 2021-01-03T18:28:57Z mangol: and a useful OS needs some webkit derivative for web browsing. that's C++ with the latest bells and whistles 2021-01-03T18:29:05Z mangol: you may be right 2021-01-03T18:29:13Z Zipheir: Ugh ugh ugh. 2021-01-03T18:29:42Z Zipheir: "webkit" triggers memories of my CPU fans screaming after 3 hours of compilation... 2021-01-03T18:29:47Z mangol: :D 2021-01-03T18:30:24Z mangol: if we can steel ourselves to accept the GCC treadmill, the rest of a Unix-Lisp OS will be relatively easier. 2021-01-03T18:30:46Z mangol: look at it this way, you managed to compile webkit using one computer. didn't need a whole farm. 2021-01-03T18:31:17Z Zipheir: That's a pretty low bar. 2021-01-03T18:31:52Z mangol: just wait for WebKit 2030 and then re-evaluate your standards :) 2021-01-03T18:36:30Z mangol: it's reassuring that some people are making new low-level languages designed for really fast compilation speed. V and Zig or something like those names 2021-01-03T18:36:53Z mangol: but it's unlikely that key projects will be translated over from C++ and Rust 2021-01-03T18:39:35Z mangol: re: something other than flat data streams connecting these things -> I agree. it would be possible to add typed I/O to Unix pipes if we can modify the kernel 2021-01-03T18:40:19Z mangol: simplest solution is something like instead of read() call formatread() which will only accept data in the given format, otherwise it won't read anything. 2021-01-03T18:40:31Z mangol: likewise for write(). and some way to query which formats are available. 2021-01-03T18:41:53Z mangol: in fact the format negotiation may be enough, and then each of the two parties could trust that the other uses that format for read() and write() 2021-01-03T18:43:08Z mangol: or use a magic number at the start of the data coming over the pipe, and error if it doesn't match 2021-01-03T18:44:45Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-03T18:44:48Z Zipheir: I don't think anything so invasive is needed. Plenty of useful abstractions can be built right on top of what POSIX provides. 2021-01-03T18:47:08Z mangol: it would be good to discuss with Scheme and Lisp implementers as well. so that we can be sure we are writing Scheme/Lisp code using abstractions that work everywhere 2021-01-03T18:47:23Z mangol: whether on Unix, or on a dedicated OS (Loko/Mezzano/Mimosa/etc.) 2021-01-03T18:47:50Z mangol: Lisp code should ideally be platform-independent, just as a lot of good C code is 2021-01-03T18:48:20Z mangol: if Genera and Interlisp and CADR are modernized, maybe the same code could even run on them. that would be awesome. 2021-01-03T18:49:02Z mangol: we'd finally have a shot at a huge and well integrated suite of lisp applications and libraries that run on a variety of platforms 2021-01-03T18:54:12Z amirouche: Zipheir: +1 2021-01-03T18:54:26Z amirouche: I believe scheme or lisp os should depart from posix somehow 2021-01-03T18:54:47Z amirouche: hence all the user space tooling should / could be different 2021-01-03T18:54:59Z amirouche: in some sense that is what apple did with macos x 2021-01-03T18:55:50Z mangol: there's no need for an OS to have only one set of userland utilities. if a Scheme POSIX userland is portable, it can be run on any OS that provides the required syscalls 2021-01-03T18:56:22Z mangol: then peoeple can install it or not, as they wish. the syscalls don't even need to be the classic Unix ones, can be anything that gives roughly equivalent behavior 2021-01-03T18:56:28Z mangol: compare to Cygwin 2021-01-03T18:57:27Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-03T18:57:44Z mangol: the main benefit of a Scheme userland (apart from the familiar commands) is that if you are stuck on a C kernel, you can reduce the amount of C needed on top, and make the utilities more flexible as well 2021-01-03T18:58:55Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-03T19:00:23Z Zipheir: Right. 2021-01-03T19:01:50Z Zipheir: A SRFI 170 implementation would be imperative. 2021-01-03T19:02:13Z Zipheir: Or not. Depends on how much Scheme-to-Scheme portability one wants. 2021-01-03T19:02:52Z mangol: yeah that would be a good starting point 2021-01-03T19:03:03Z Zipheir: Sorry, thinking out loud. 2021-01-03T19:03:43Z mangol: any project we do in this general direction is likely to have synergy with one or more other projects, so it's unlikely any such work is a complete waste 2021-01-03T19:04:27Z mangol: as long as we work out the interfaces to avoid needless incompatibility 2021-01-03T19:08:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-03T19:08:51Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-03T19:30:29Z amirouche: Not necessarly depart from unix / posix but at least question whether it is the good thing. 2021-01-03T19:30:53Z amirouche: hence compatibility would not be a requirement. 2021-01-03T19:33:36Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T19:34:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-03T19:34:48Z amirouche: many think that future of os is ocaps and things like fushia 2021-01-03T19:36:20Z Zipheir: Everyone has their own idea of the "future of OS". 2021-01-03T19:36:58Z Zipheir: I use the command-line for everything, so I tend to look for ways to develop that interface. IMO, it hasn't developed much since the 70s. 2021-01-03T19:39:28Z amirouche: there is chatbots. 2021-01-03T19:39:50Z Zipheir: What does that have to do with OSs or interfaces? 2021-01-03T19:40:14Z amirouche: chatbot looks like cli (imo) 2021-01-03T19:40:37Z amirouche: except chatbot are privative and less powerful. 2021-01-03T19:41:30Z Zipheir: Hmm. 2021-01-03T19:42:21Z amirouche: most chatbot (if not all) are very stupid much like cli 2021-01-03T19:42:48Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-03T19:43:30Z Zipheir: In the sense that they reject anything they can't parse? 2021-01-03T19:43:50Z amirouche: yes 2021-01-03T19:44:32Z amirouche: really chatbot are html5 cli nothing else 2021-01-03T19:44:54Z amirouche: what works well is speech recognition 2021-01-03T19:46:41Z Zipheir: I guess people often point to zsh or bash as "progress" in the CLI world, but I fail to see how they really improve on Bourne's original as a way to interact with a computer. 2021-01-03T19:48:32Z amirouche: what would be nice is speech interface to lookup documentation 2021-01-03T19:48:49Z amirouche: without leaving the comfort of the editor 2021-01-03T19:49:50Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-03T19:50:14Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-03T19:50:46Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-03T19:58:57Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-03T20:17:03Z mangol: speech recognition (or lip reading via webcam) would be nice eventually. what will we use for machine learning in a lisp os? 2021-01-03T20:17:41Z mangol: torch and tensorflow = more C++ on top of webkit. maybe worth it? are those frameworks still usable without python? 2021-01-03T20:18:20Z mangol: or roll out own. siskind (of stalin fame) is/was working on something in that direction around scheme. 2021-01-03T20:19:20Z mangol: GPU acceleration will potentially be difficult 2021-01-03T20:19:48Z mangol: AI and native 3D graphics will be mandatory for any OS in 2030 2021-01-03T20:20:25Z mangol: ditch text terminals (or keep ANSI codes as legacy compat) and make each terminal a 3D canvas 2021-01-03T20:20:53Z mangol: EGL/WebGL would be reasonable API targets to start with 2021-01-03T20:21:53Z mangol: maybe each terminal should have audio in/out ports too. for the speech recognition and the rest 2021-01-03T20:22:23Z mangol: on unix you can probably do this by adding some ioctl()s. it will be hilarious. 2021-01-03T20:24:15Z mangol: also each tty must have its own cup holder. that's the most requested feature for many devices. 2021-01-03T20:29:12Z amirouche: I think I got something... according to me search engine, the most relevant articles about "computer" in simple.wikipedia.org are.... drum rolling: 2021-01-03T20:29:14Z amirouche: ;; (("https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_Computer" . 53)) 2021-01-03T20:29:16Z amirouche: ;; (("https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science" . 53)) 2021-01-03T20:29:18Z amirouche: ;; (("https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer" . 63)) 2021-01-03T20:29:20Z amirouche: real 0m2,194s 2021-01-03T20:29:34Z amirouche: this is the timing for single thread wihtout any optimizations. 2021-01-03T20:30:49Z mangol: looks reasonable 2021-01-03T20:34:39Z amirouche: There is only 0.5G of plain text... again the biggest problem is looking up high frequency words that are not stopwords, eg. in the current dataset, looking up wikipedia takes 39sec 2021-01-03T20:35:13Z amirouche: I have trick to workaround that problem that does not require caching the results for those words 2021-01-03T20:43:03Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-03T20:50:47Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-03T20:59:42Z Tirifto quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-01-03T21:00:26Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-03T21:03:20Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-03T21:05:45Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-03T21:06:09Z jcowan: mangol: GNU Mes does exactly what you are talking about 2021-01-03T21:08:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T21:09:49Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-03T21:10:05Z jcowan: there is a Scheme interpreter written in simple C, and a simple C compiler written in Scheme. From that you can bootstrap to (patched) tcc, which lets you get to glibc-2.2.5, binutils-2.20.1, and gcc-2.95.3. From there the path to Linux-on-Intel is straighforward. 2021-01-03T21:11:38Z jcowan: So then if you have guile and gcc/clang lying about (most people do) you can check that both paths (through the Scheme and C components) lead to the same results. 2021-01-03T21:34:57Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-01-03T21:37:48Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-03T21:38:18Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-03T21:56:17Z amirouche: this project is so inspiring, one the greatest project of our decade, probably. no wonder it is supported by ngi0 2021-01-03T21:56:33Z amirouche: well last decade, but still. 2021-01-03T21:58:12Z amirouche: that is what lead me to think about the awesome-civkit 2021-01-03T22:10:07Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-03T22:22:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-03T22:37:36Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-03T22:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-03T22:58:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-03T23:05:10Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-03T23:46:25Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-04T00:01:13Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-04T00:08:02Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-04T00:09:35Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-04T00:57:53Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-04T01:07:26Z sgibber2018 joined #scheme 2021-01-04T01:12:20Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-04T01:18:20Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-04T01:21:33Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-04T01:21:38Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-04T01:33:08Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-04T01:33:48Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-04T02:06:19Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-04T02:18:36Z lucero left #scheme 2021-01-04T02:23:02Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T02:42:03Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-04T03:06:18Z notzmv quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-01-04T03:09:51Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-04T03:14:09Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T03:14:33Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-04T03:18:45Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-04T03:19:24Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-04T03:21:49Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-04T03:54:15Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T03:54:42Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-04T03:55:10Z mzan quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-01-04T03:56:06Z mzan joined #scheme 2021-01-04T03:59:46Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-04T04:10:01Z daviid: someone did ask here, a little while ago about clojure on scheme, fwiw, here is a such a project for guile - https://git.sr.ht/~rlb/lokke - quoting the site: 'Lokke intends to provide a full dialect of Clojure for Guile. It also consists of a set of Guile modules providing some of Clojure's functionality in two different guises.' 2021-01-04T04:10:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-04T04:13:40Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-04T04:17:28Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-04T04:20:40Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-04T04:22:17Z dto quit 2021-01-04T04:30:01Z jcowan: Including all the Java stuff? 2021-01-04T04:37:54Z dto joined #scheme 2021-01-04T04:46:52Z sgibber2018 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-04T04:50:29Z mdhughes: Clojurescript is Clojure-Java+JS, so the Java's not essential. 2021-01-04T05:01:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-04T05:04:00Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-04T05:50:05Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T05:51:54Z xsperry joined #scheme 2021-01-04T06:11:47Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-04T06:20:12Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-04T06:20:44Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-04T06:28:48Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-04T06:47:21Z sgibber2018 joined #scheme 2021-01-04T06:52:21Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-04T06:56:10Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T06:57:04Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-04T06:57:53Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T07:06:42Z actuallybatman joined #scheme 2021-01-04T07:18:25Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-04T07:32:30Z oni-on-ion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T07:41:10Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T07:51:07Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-04T08:06:04Z lloda quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T08:06:37Z lloda joined #scheme 2021-01-04T08:07:51Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T08:16:16Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-04T08:24:57Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-04T08:48:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-04T08:52:22Z wasamasa: there's at least two more such projects 2021-01-04T08:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T08:58:17Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-04T09:00:05Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-04T09:02:07Z amirouche: datomic anyone? 2021-01-04T09:02:28Z wasamasa: lol 2021-01-04T09:05:09Z amirouche: It reminds me I need to read more about datalog... I spents hours if not days with publications in serif fonts and startup's well chosen colors website, I still do not understand the appeal of datalog. 2021-01-04T09:06:53Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-04T09:07:54Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-04T09:09:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-04T09:39:44Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T09:39:59Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-04T09:41:22Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-04T11:02:21Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T11:02:44Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-04T11:06:58Z tryte quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T11:07:41Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-04T11:28:27Z even4void joined #scheme 2021-01-04T12:01:54Z even4void quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-04T12:05:49Z manumanumanu: daviid: I have always wanted to write proper rrb-vectors for scheme, but I am too stupid to actually modify guile-fector to be rrb-like. It should be pretty straight-forward. 2021-01-04T12:33:32Z manumanumanu: rrb-vectors are just like clojure vectors, but they have relaxed the requirement that they should be balanced. That gives them fast concatenation, splitting and insertion at a very small colst. 2021-01-04T12:38:56Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-04T12:59:38Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-01-04T13:11:17Z tatsumaru joined #scheme 2021-01-04T13:11:21Z tatsumaru: hey guys 2021-01-04T13:11:44Z tatsumaru: is there an easy way to type in special chars in the code such as pi without having to copy it from somewhere? are they built in the ide? 2021-01-04T13:14:18Z LeoNerd: "the" IDE? 2021-01-04T13:14:26Z tatsumaru: I meant an IDE 2021-01-04T13:19:26Z lortabac: there are certainly plugins for at least vim and emacs 2021-01-04T13:39:56Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-04T13:41:28Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-04T13:45:14Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-04T13:56:08Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-04T13:56:30Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-04T13:59:16Z rgherdt: or switch to neo2 layout :) 2021-01-04T14:00:12Z tatsumaru: rgherdt isn't that for German? 2021-01-04T14:00:36Z rgherdt: yes, but it also works pretty well for english 2021-01-04T14:08:02Z sgibber2018 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-04T14:31:15Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T14:35:59Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-04T14:43:38Z ex_nihilo_ joined #scheme 2021-01-04T14:44:04Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-04T14:46:17Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-04T14:46:17Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-04T14:46:49Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-04T14:47:14Z epony joined #scheme 2021-01-04T14:56:17Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-04T14:59:37Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-04T15:00:53Z ggoes_ is now known as ggoes 2021-01-04T15:01:02Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-04T15:03:28Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-04T15:06:24Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-04T15:21:57Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-04T15:24:33Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-04T15:30:13Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-04T15:43:25Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-04T16:20:48Z codingquark quit (Quit: oh my) 2021-01-04T16:24:40Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-04T16:27:39Z codingquark joined #scheme 2021-01-04T16:31:37Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-04T16:31:54Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T16:57:42Z aquijoule_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T16:58:04Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T16:58:13Z tatsumaru left #scheme 2021-01-04T16:58:40Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-04T16:58:40Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:14:39Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:28:22Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-04T17:28:41Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:31:25Z _apg joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:32:23Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-04T17:35:46Z ex_nihilo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-04T17:42:55Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-04T17:43:13Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:43:30Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T17:43:49Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:43:57Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:52:48Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-04T17:53:03Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:54:52Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:54:55Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-04T17:56:34Z matryoshka` quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T17:56:53Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:58:22Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-01-04T17:58:28Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-04T18:00:10Z matryoshka` quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T18:00:33Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T18:09:13Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-04T18:23:37Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-04T18:23:52Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T18:27:24Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-04T18:30:12Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-04T18:34:35Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-04T18:37:37Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-04T18:48:14Z dto: hi. I am porting a short program (~ 850 lines) from 1990-era Scheme to S7 Scheme, which is probably the same era lol. the following code (pastebin to follow) seems to fail with an error message i'll give after the link 2021-01-04T18:48:15Z dto: (define format 2021-01-04T18:48:16Z dto: (lambda d-list 2021-01-04T18:48:16Z dto: (define loop 2021-01-04T18:48:16Z dto: (lambda (d-list) 2021-01-04T18:48:16Z dto: (cond ( d-list 2021-01-04T18:48:16Z dto: (display (car d-list)) 2021-01-04T18:48:16Z dto: (loop (cdr d-list)))))) 2021-01-04T18:48:17Z dto: (newline) 2021-01-04T18:48:17Z dto: (loop d-list))) 2021-01-04T18:48:18Z dto: \ 2021-01-04T18:48:18Z dto: OS 2021-01-04T18:48:19Z dto: OOPS 2021-01-04T18:48:36Z dto: my client was supposed to show me a dialog box for making a snippet 2021-01-04T18:48:51Z dto: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/m2fGEwTs/ 2021-01-04T18:49:07Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-04T18:49:10Z Riastradh: Try (cond ((pair? d-list) ...) instead of (cond (d-list ...)). 2021-01-04T18:50:08Z dto: thanks Riastradh ! 2021-01-04T18:50:17Z dto: why they redefine format in this way is unclear to me. i'd better rename it 2021-01-04T18:50:43Z dto: this is the code i'm porting: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/areas/neural/systems/qprop/0.html 2021-01-04T18:50:54Z dto: nicely documented CL and Scheme versions. 2021-01-04T18:50:56Z stannous joined #scheme 2021-01-04T18:54:03Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-04T18:56:08Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-04T18:58:28Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-04T19:01:00Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:04:29Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-04T19:04:48Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:08:03Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-04T19:08:38Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T19:08:58Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:13:10Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T19:13:29Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:14:25Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T19:14:56Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:18:55Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-04T19:19:14Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:19:20Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T19:20:26Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:23:21Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T19:23:39Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:27:52Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T19:28:12Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:30:08Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T19:30:29Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:33:44Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:33:48Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T19:53:22Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:54:54Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T19:55:15Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T19:59:31Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T19:59:53Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T20:03:50Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-04T20:04:07Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T20:05:50Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-01-04T20:05:56Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-04T20:07:43Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-04T20:31:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-04T20:36:50Z stannous quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T20:43:23Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T20:43:47Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-04T20:47:28Z renken joined #scheme 2021-01-04T20:51:49Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T20:52:08Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-04T20:57:33Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T20:57:52Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-04T20:58:04Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T20:58:14Z Steeve quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-04T20:59:16Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-04T20:59:50Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T20:59:58Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-04T21:01:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-04T21:02:46Z miasuji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-04T21:03:50Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-04T21:04:14Z duncanm: Riastradh: happy new year! 2021-01-04T21:04:23Z duncanm: hey dto, it's been a LONG time! 2021-01-04T21:04:46Z Zipheir: I'm confused about what the problem is. 2021-01-04T21:04:50Z dto: whoa. 2021-01-04T21:04:52Z Zipheir: Ugh, ww. 2021-01-04T21:05:16Z dto: duncanm: i remember your name somehow, but can you refresh my memory as to what we talked about? 2021-01-04T21:05:37Z Riastradh: Hi duncanm! 2021-01-04T21:06:06Z duncanm: dto: you're also friends with my friend Anthony 2021-01-04T21:06:16Z duncanm: and years ago we might have met in person once 2021-01-04T21:06:27Z duncanm: oh, Anthony's nick was voltron 2021-01-04T21:13:44Z dto: oh. i haven't heard from him in years 2021-01-04T21:13:55Z dto: did we meet at a restaurant 2021-01-04T21:14:16Z dto: i had french onion soup 2021-01-04T21:17:32Z duncanm: something like that 2021-01-04T21:17:46Z duncanm: voltron and I are still in touch 2021-01-04T21:17:56Z duncanm: I'm still living in cambridge, MA, and he's in SF nowadays 2021-01-04T21:23:12Z Steeve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-04T21:26:57Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-04T21:32:08Z Steeve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-04T21:38:05Z amirouche: "Full Source Bootstrap" for x86-linux (and 2021-01-04T21:38:07Z amirouche: x86_64-linux). This bootstrap is rooted in the 357-byte 2021-01-04T21:38:19Z amirouche: ^^ just announced on guix ml 2021-01-04T21:38:27Z amirouche: (4 hours ago) 2021-01-04T21:42:40Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T21:43:03Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-04T21:49:22Z ech left #scheme 2021-01-04T22:11:22Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-04T22:17:31Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-04T22:21:47Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T22:23:09Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-04T22:25:03Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T22:25:25Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-04T22:31:18Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-04T22:35:34Z ArneBab quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-01-04T22:37:26Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-04T22:39:57Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-04T22:54:00Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-04T22:56:26Z matryoshka` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-04T23:00:34Z jcowan: Riastradh: Device/file equivalence and device independence are excellent ideas from early Unix. As usual, they didn't go far enough, hence the Pyramids^W^WPlan 9. 2021-01-04T23:17:27Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-04T23:30:53Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-04T23:56:34Z dto: i take it the function -1+ is designed to subtract 1? 2021-01-04T23:57:36Z dto: and not 1-x 2021-01-04T23:57:49Z Riastradh: jcowan: Not really sure I'd call them `excellent ideas'. In practical terms the model is rather klunky. 2021-01-04T23:57:58Z Riastradh: device/file equivalence, that is 2021-01-04T23:58:02Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-01-04T23:58:02Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2021-01-04T23:58:02Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-01-04T23:58:33Z jcowan: dto: yes 2021-01-04T23:58:50Z dto: thank you jcowan . i'm porting some old 1990 scheme 2021-01-04T23:59:29Z Riastradh: There's the Common Lisp 1- which _looks_ like (1- x) oughta mean `1 - x', but in MIT Scheme it's called (-1+ x) which computes `-1 + x' like it says on the box. 2021-01-05T00:01:02Z jcowan: As someone who spent the first years of his programming existence writing hard-coded tty instructions in an environment that made input and output redirection impossible, I disagree. 2021-01-05T00:01:42Z Riastradh: Sure, perhaps for ttys that was a great innovation, but there aren't many things under /dev where naive shell I/O redirection makes sense. 2021-01-05T00:03:09Z Riastradh: Blocking read/write is also not a very good model for anything where blocking happens for reasons other than `the queue in memory is full' -- you really want separate I/O submission and I/O completion (of course, the same is true for file I/O at high throughput, but I'm not even talking about performance). 2021-01-05T00:06:09Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-05T00:08:12Z jcowan: Been and done that too on VMS, and on TOPS-10, where (even worse) you had to make sure you had emptied an input buffer before the hardware began to fill it again (and vice versa on output) 2021-01-05T00:08:54Z jcowan: Efficient process management, as in Research Unix, eliminated any need for asynchronous operations below the process level. 2021-01-05T00:11:36Z Riastradh: Speaking as someone who still writes device drivers, userland and kernel, for modern high-speed and low-speed interactive devices today -- I would really prefer a composable way to do separate I/O submission and I/O completion. 2021-01-05T00:19:07Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T00:30:01Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-05T00:36:58Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-05T00:52:02Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-05T01:02:17Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T01:24:35Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-05T01:26:36Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T01:29:05Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-05T01:58:35Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T01:58:50Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-05T02:01:12Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T02:03:58Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-05T02:13:32Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-05T02:30:46Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-05T02:47:45Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T02:49:45Z richbridger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T02:52:14Z rubic88 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T02:52:31Z rubic88 joined #scheme 2021-01-05T02:53:59Z elly quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T02:54:07Z elly joined #scheme 2021-01-05T02:54:28Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-05T02:59:19Z gforce joined #scheme 2021-01-05T03:15:00Z gforce: hi 2021-01-05T03:22:50Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-05T03:35:06Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-05T03:36:28Z remby: say I would like to time a function, in racket the have a nice one called time, but I want to also print the result, but not include that in time output 2021-01-05T03:36:52Z remby: e.g. (time (fib n)) will not output the result 2021-01-05T03:45:40Z gforce quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-01-05T04:10:26Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-05T04:11:23Z mdhughes: (time (display (fib n))) 2021-01-05T04:12:57Z mdhughes: Hopefully time prints to stderr, so you could filter it into a separate log. 2021-01-05T04:14:59Z remby: mdhughes: it does 2021-01-05T04:15:30Z remby: but there's about 1000 s difference between having display and not 2021-01-05T04:15:58Z remby: not to important, but at the same time if any one knows that would be great 2021-01-05T04:27:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T04:33:35Z mdhughes: 1000 s, or more reasonably 1000 ns? 2021-01-05T04:35:04Z mdhughes: But if you just need the calculation, (define result 0) (time (set! result (fib n))) (display result) won't count the IO 2021-01-05T04:38:47Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-05T04:38:58Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T05:18:46Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-05T05:24:54Z phoe6 joined #scheme 2021-01-05T05:40:19Z jitwit joined #scheme 2021-01-05T05:48:38Z remby: mdhughes: ha, I had tried exactly that 2021-01-05T05:48:49Z remby: but it did not display anything 2021-01-05T05:48:57Z remby: mdhughes: ns probably 2021-01-05T05:49:59Z remby: https://termbin.com/g2jo 2021-01-05T05:55:59Z shynoob joined #scheme 2021-01-05T05:58:57Z remby quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-01-05T06:16:58Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T06:17:15Z zugzwang_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T06:20:22Z shynoob quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-05T06:24:10Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-05T06:28:54Z marusich joined #scheme 2021-01-05T07:02:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-05T07:02:46Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-05T07:27:20Z zugzwang_ left #scheme 2021-01-05T07:31:48Z renken_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T07:33:13Z renken quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-05T07:34:09Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-05T07:47:37Z gforce joined #scheme 2021-01-05T07:58:28Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-05T08:29:40Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-05T09:06:35Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-05T09:06:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T09:27:36Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T09:28:04Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-05T09:46:37Z xelxebar_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T09:46:43Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T09:54:45Z wasamasa: amirouche: so, about that okvs deletion thing 2021-01-05T09:57:05Z amirouche: yeah 2021-01-05T09:57:19Z amirouche: I think it is better to return nothing 2021-01-05T09:57:47Z amirouche: that is specify that okvs-delete! returns nothing 2021-01-05T09:58:09Z amirouche: and raise no error 2021-01-05T10:16:00Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-05T10:18:30Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-05T10:21:13Z wasamasa: that doesn't answer the error thing though 2021-01-05T10:21:18Z wasamasa: and behavior inside transactions 2021-01-05T10:21:26Z wasamasa: is it fine to raise an error or not? 2021-01-05T11:07:59Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-05T11:18:03Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T11:19:12Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-05T11:26:55Z renken_ is now known as renken 2021-01-05T11:30:26Z amirouche: no it is not fine 2021-01-05T11:30:56Z amirouche: wasamasa: it is better to ignore any error and return nothing 2021-01-05T11:31:04Z amirouche: because compatibility 2021-01-05T11:31:17Z wasamasa: so no error should be raised after all, lol 2021-01-05T11:31:24Z amirouche: no :) 2021-01-05T11:31:45Z wasamasa: make up your mind 2021-01-05T11:36:22Z mangol: Riastradh: is io_uring a reasonable approximation of a "composable way to do separate I/O submission and I/O completion"? 2021-01-05T11:42:22Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-05T11:46:56Z sdu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T11:47:53Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-01-05T12:14:19Z renken_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T12:14:49Z renken quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-05T12:21:15Z ramrunner joined #scheme 2021-01-05T12:21:33Z ramrunner is now known as dsp 2021-01-05T12:26:51Z renken joined #scheme 2021-01-05T12:27:16Z renken_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-05T12:33:03Z phoe6 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-01-05T12:36:59Z rjcks joined #scheme 2021-01-05T13:11:25Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T13:16:33Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-01-05T13:35:41Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-05T13:36:10Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-05T13:38:27Z rjcks quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-01-05T13:50:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-05T13:50:33Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-05T13:55:06Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-05T13:59:02Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-05T14:06:17Z Tirifto joined #scheme 2021-01-05T14:30:28Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-05T14:33:23Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-05T14:46:25Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-05T14:51:29Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-05T16:04:20Z renken_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T16:04:58Z renken quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T16:05:28Z Tirifto quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-01-05T16:20:57Z iv4nshm4k0v joined #scheme 2021-01-05T16:27:54Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-05T16:28:42Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-05T16:28:49Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-05T16:33:13Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-05T16:36:06Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-05T16:43:00Z renken_ is now known as renken 2021-01-05T16:43:47Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T17:14:45Z dto: hey Riastradh thanks for helping me out yesterday with that historical scheme code. it works swimmingly now btw. 2021-01-05T17:15:40Z Riastradh: mangol: Not sure, haven't looked closely at it -- high-level idea sounds right; devil is in details. 2021-01-05T17:15:43Z Riastradh: dto: cool 2021-01-05T17:16:43Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T17:17:43Z gabot joined #scheme 2021-01-05T17:22:00Z aeth: dto: which Scheme? 2021-01-05T17:22:44Z dto: https://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el/-/blob/master/neural.scm aeth it is some backpropagating neural network code from 1990 at CMU 2021-01-05T17:22:55Z dto: i'm using S7, i don't know which scheme it came from 2021-01-05T17:22:59Z dto: presumably CMU 2021-01-05T17:54:44Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-05T18:38:00Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-05T18:54:55Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-05T18:57:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-05T19:00:20Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T19:03:37Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-05T19:06:39Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-05T19:09:13Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-05T19:15:25Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-05T19:23:02Z seepel1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-05T19:27:21Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-05T19:44:52Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-05T19:56:34Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T20:00:14Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-05T20:01:43Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T20:05:24Z terrorjack quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-05T20:11:04Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-05T20:11:52Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T20:13:15Z terrorjack joined #scheme 2021-01-05T20:13:58Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-05T20:15:54Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-05T20:21:20Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-05T20:52:42Z todun joined #scheme 2021-01-05T20:57:48Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T21:17:55Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-05T21:18:00Z ngz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-05T21:18:07Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-05T21:27:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T21:33:49Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-05T21:34:53Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-05T21:39:42Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-05T21:41:09Z zgasma joined #scheme 2021-01-05T21:41:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-05T21:45:17Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-05T21:45:39Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-05T21:53:36Z renken quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T21:54:05Z renken joined #scheme 2021-01-05T22:03:42Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T22:09:37Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-05T22:23:27Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-05T22:43:24Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-05T22:46:54Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-05T22:50:23Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-05T22:50:57Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-05T22:51:12Z todun quit (Quit: todun) 2021-01-05T22:57:32Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-05T23:02:56Z sgibber2018 joined #scheme 2021-01-05T23:03:44Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-05T23:07:23Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T23:10:11Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-05T23:10:30Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-05T23:25:39Z ngz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-05T23:27:36Z renken_ joined #scheme 2021-01-05T23:28:25Z renken quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-05T23:41:02Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-05T23:50:28Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-05T23:51:22Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-06T00:22:17Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-06T00:28:19Z gforce quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-01-06T00:31:34Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-06T00:50:32Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-06T01:01:45Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T01:06:16Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-06T01:10:46Z zgasma quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-06T01:15:40Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-06T01:21:47Z daviid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T01:25:45Z seepel quit (Quit: seepel) 2021-01-06T01:29:22Z evdubs quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-06T01:33:29Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-06T01:34:16Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-01-06T01:45:26Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T01:49:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T01:51:51Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T01:56:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T01:58:23Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-06T01:58:46Z daviid is now known as Guest14816 2021-01-06T01:59:02Z Guest14816 is now known as daviid 2021-01-06T02:04:57Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T02:05:33Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-06T02:07:36Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T02:13:38Z sgibber2018 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-06T02:15:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T02:50:27Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-06T02:55:59Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T02:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T02:58:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-06T03:00:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-06T03:14:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T03:26:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T03:26:53Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-06T03:44:37Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T03:51:58Z imode1 joined #scheme 2021-01-06T03:52:45Z imode1 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-06T03:53:20Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-06T03:53:41Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-06T04:00:49Z sdu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T04:01:31Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T04:06:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T04:19:23Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T04:19:48Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-06T04:23:11Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-06T04:28:42Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-06T04:29:56Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-06T04:57:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T05:00:01Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-06T05:00:10Z sgibber2018 joined #scheme 2021-01-06T05:02:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T05:05:37Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-06T05:08:31Z shynoob joined #scheme 2021-01-06T05:18:09Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T05:22:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T05:22:22Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T05:24:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T05:29:28Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-06T05:35:13Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2021-01-06T06:00:27Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-06T06:05:37Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T06:06:02Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T06:17:59Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-06T06:50:39Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-06T06:52:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T06:56:57Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-06T07:12:13Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-06T07:12:18Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T07:16:31Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-06T07:19:45Z shynoob quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T07:26:37Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T07:32:40Z shynoob joined #scheme 2021-01-06T07:36:06Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-06T07:39:13Z renken_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T07:46:03Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-06T07:48:28Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-06T07:53:09Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-06T07:58:08Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-06T08:10:26Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T08:12:29Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-06T08:18:17Z ggoes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-06T08:24:53Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-01-06T08:37:17Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-01-06T08:44:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-06T09:00:14Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-06T09:08:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T09:17:35Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T09:21:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T09:23:20Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-06T09:24:05Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-06T09:28:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T09:32:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T09:41:31Z ex_nihilo_ joined #scheme 2021-01-06T09:44:26Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T09:58:21Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T09:58:49Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-06T10:06:01Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-06T10:06:10Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-06T10:08:03Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-06T10:14:52Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-06T10:17:11Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-06T10:27:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T10:27:25Z jboy left #scheme 2021-01-06T10:32:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T10:33:46Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-06T10:42:20Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-06T10:51:29Z sgibber2018 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-06T10:53:06Z lockywolf_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-06T10:54:57Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-01-06T10:56:31Z renken_ joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:16:53Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:20:30Z Ericson2314 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-06T11:20:30Z dieggsy quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-06T11:20:32Z mbakke quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-06T11:20:32Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-06T11:20:34Z pukkamustard[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-06T11:20:35Z Irvise[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-06T11:20:40Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-06T11:20:40Z siraben quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-06T11:21:08Z null_radix[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-06T11:21:20Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-06T11:23:28Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-06T11:27:16Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:31:19Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-06T11:34:16Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:34:16Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:34:17Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:34:17Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:34:17Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:34:17Z pukkamustard[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:34:17Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:34:17Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:45:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T11:49:31Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-06T12:37:17Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-06T12:37:34Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-06T12:39:50Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-06T12:45:44Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-06T12:45:52Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T13:11:39Z shynoob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-06T13:21:09Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-06T13:28:05Z phoe6 joined #scheme 2021-01-06T13:42:20Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-06T13:43:42Z LeoNerd: Hi all.. I come with a question seeking some inspiration from Scheme perhaps, as an example language. Or, perhaps less Scheme and more perhaps from some actual implementation 2021-01-06T13:44:28Z LeoNerd: I'm aware that Scheme spec doesn't really go in for typing information, but it seems a thing that sometimes implementations add on top. Does there exist some ideas around a cond-like thing, but for type matches instead of value equality? 2021-01-06T13:44:58Z LeoNerd: I'm thinking syntax relating to taking a value, and dispatching one of several cases depending on whether it satisfies various type constraints 2021-01-06T13:45:35Z bitmapper_ joined #scheme 2021-01-06T13:46:38Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-06T13:48:40Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-06T13:51:44Z pinoaffe: LeoNerd: I think any language with run-time types is bound to have something along the lines of (has-type? type object), which could be used in a cond, but I don't know if anyone has added explicit syntax to simplify such a cond 2021-01-06T13:52:43Z LeoNerd: I'm currently just thinking of a few ways to tidy up the if/elsif/... syntax 2021-01-06T13:52:55Z LeoNerd: avoiding a bit of repetition 2021-01-06T13:55:03Z bitmapper_ is now known as bitmapper 2021-01-06T13:57:03Z klovett: CHICKEN Scheme has `compiler-typecase' but i've never used it (the runtime `type-case' yes but that is syntax-sugar over a ? cond) 2021-01-06T13:58:59Z LeoNerd: Oh wait, the more I look at cond, the more I think that wasn't the thing I was thinking of 2021-01-06T13:59:22Z LeoNerd: Something more akin to C's switch/case, the idea that you give an expression to generate a value, and then that value is compared against a variety of possible examples to find one that matches 2021-01-06T14:00:38Z pinoaffe: LeoNerd: that tends to be called case, can be seen as syntactic sugar over cond 2021-01-06T14:00:58Z LeoNerd: Ahyes, but crucially with side-effects happening only once, I thought? 2021-01-06T14:01:17Z LeoNerd: So you can have a complex expression with side effects and that just gets evaluated once to generate the value to compare 2021-01-06T14:01:18Z mangol: portable type matching in Scheme is done using predicates: string? number? boolean? etc. Scheme doesn't have a portable has-type? of type-of 2021-01-06T14:01:46Z mangol: the side effects problem is orthogonal (i.e. unrelated) to the type matching problem. 2021-01-06T14:02:25Z mangol: something like if-let / and-let / cond-let can be used to evaluate an expression once and bind it to a variable (like let does) before testing it 2021-01-06T14:02:30Z LeoNerd: Sure; I just mean it isn't "trivially" rewritable as the equivalent cond chain (or if/elseif/...) 2021-01-06T14:02:55Z LeoNerd: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/case.html -- so, e.g. reading this page, I see the comparisons are done using `equal?` 2021-01-06T14:03:46Z LeoNerd: Are there syntax ideas around that let you pick the equality test operator yourself? I'm approaching this from a Perl perspective, with the trouble that, like Scheme, there isn't just one universal equality test operator 2021-01-06T14:04:32Z LeoNerd: So you need to be able to pick stringy verses numerical testing. But while I'm there, it occurs to me I could very easily allow any sort of predicate test operator, such as object class "isa" testing, and such like 2021-01-06T14:04:34Z mangol: IIRC that's one classic Lisp macro and it's traditionally called fcase or something 2021-01-06T14:04:37Z mangol: f as in function 2021-01-06T14:05:04Z mangol: Common Lisp has a standard typecase macro (http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_tpcase.htm) but Scheme doesn't have a standard type system so it's not obvious how to port it 2021-01-06T14:05:42Z mangol: RnRS only gives a few standard types and says they have to be disjoint (i.e. completely separate) 2021-01-06T14:06:02Z LeoNerd: Righty, yes... 2021-01-06T14:06:58Z LeoNerd: So for the type dispatchy thing, I was wondering on a syntax like (totally stealing some Perl keywords): (given (x) (when number? (display "It's a number")) (when string? (display "It's a string")) ... 2021-01-06T14:07:31Z LeoNerd: Effectively, a list of predicate -> code block comparisons, to test each against the value 2021-01-06T14:08:04Z mangol: that kind of macro makes sense 2021-01-06T14:08:27Z mangol: IIRC it's traditionally something like (fcase foo (string? ...) (number? ...) (boolean? ...) (else ...)) 2021-01-06T14:08:44Z LeoNerd: Ahh. I now see what the f in `fcase` means 2021-01-06T14:09:33Z mangol: yeah. since those are arbitrary predicate functions, you can also test for things like positive? even? or your own predicates, which are not always simple to fit into a "real" type system 2021-01-06T14:09:44Z LeoNerd: Soyeah that's quite similar... and makes sense within Scheme because whatever type system you might have lying around, it presumably still has some named predicate test functions that are just functions, so you can just name them like that 2021-01-06T14:10:21Z LeoNerd: Admittedly that part is something less easy to translate to the target I have in mind :/ 2021-01-06T14:12:03Z mangol: predicates are the only safe bet for portable type checking, yes. of Scheme implementations, Kawa may have the most fully fledged type system visible to the user (though I'm not sure) due to its interop with the Java type system 2021-01-06T14:12:31Z mangol: and ofc Typed Racket as well, if it counts 2021-01-06T14:13:19Z mangol: if a Scheme's type system doesn't have named predicates, it's easy to write them yourself; they're probably one-liners 2021-01-06T14:13:40Z mangol: (define (foo? x) (is-type? x 'foo)) or something like that 2021-01-06T14:14:07Z mangol: then you can go on using (fcase something (foo? ...)) 2021-01-06T14:14:45Z LeoNerd: Hmm.. Soyeah, the overalll difficulty I have is that I'm thinking of this as applying to Perl rather than Scheme, and trying to think through what some syntax there might look like. But a lot of these Scheme ideas don't fit so well, because in Scheme function call overhead is extermely small, because "everything" is a function call, so.. it's all nicely tidy. Whereas having the perl type tests be normal perl >> 2021-01-06T14:14:45Z LeoNerd: << functions would not work well for performance 2021-01-06T14:15:22Z LeoNerd: So I start thinking that the type constraints have to be their own separate thing that isn't a function... which wanders down the path of them living in their own namespace that isn't the same as functions, and... it becomes a lot messier :/ 2021-01-06T14:15:59Z mangol: not sure how the Perl type system works. possibly quite different from Scheme 2021-01-06T14:16:12Z LeoNerd: But conversely, if syntax-wise such type constraints can only be put in certain places, it leads to maybe new opportunities for new places 2021-01-06T14:16:56Z mangol: Schemers don't really think about syntax very much :) 2021-01-06T14:17:16Z LeoNerd: For example (trying to write this in a sortof Scheme-ish way), I was thinking of a "conditional let"... some sort of expression that opportunistically tries to assign a value into a typed variable, and if it succeeds then it evalutes as true, but if not then it evaluates as false 2021-01-06T14:17:36Z LeoNerd: Which you can then use as the controlling expression of an if block, or while loop, or whatever 2021-01-06T14:17:46Z mangol: of all language communities we are one of the most indifferent to syntax, except re: having as little of it as we can 2021-01-06T14:17:56Z LeoNerd: Yeah.. I had noticed that ;) 2021-01-06T14:18:14Z mangol: Go lang has exactly that kind of opportunistic assignment statement dealing with types. you should check it out 2021-01-06T14:18:27Z LeoNerd: Everything becomes a matter of recognising the head keyword, and just knowing what its positional parameters mean in that context 2021-01-06T14:19:48Z LeoNerd: Funnily enough, the way the Perl parser can be extended by modules means that new 3rd-party syntax is also introduced by a head keyword, with whatever optional syntax living behind it.. so it really encourages a similar-ish sort of thinking, where the first word you encounter on a normal left-to-right reading is a unique keyword to specify what's going on 2021-01-06T14:20:05Z LeoNerd: Which is generally nicer than icky infix operators of unclear precedence 2021-01-06T14:20:59Z LeoNerd: OK, so... lets ignore the typed things for a moment, and go back to ideas of a switch/case-like structure, by just comparing values. 2021-01-06T14:21:09Z LeoNerd: Are there versions that let you specify the equality test operator? 2021-01-06T14:21:12Z mangol: all extensions in all languages probably have to rely on a head keyword eventually, jsut for basic sanity. C and SQL often don't, and those grammars are insane 2021-01-06T14:22:41Z mangol: in Scheme and Lisp and functional languages more generally, operators are just functions. so fcase can take any binary (i.e. two-argument) operator 2021-01-06T14:23:03Z mangol: equal? and = and string=? are functions (or procedures as we say) 2021-01-06T14:23:54Z LeoNerd: Ohsure, but I mean that would require you to repeat it on every case 2021-01-06T14:24:30Z LeoNerd: I'm thinking of a way where you'd specify that you want to compare some variable against maybe 5 different constants, but only specify the test operator once 2021-01-06T14:24:39Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-06T14:24:49Z LeoNerd: otherwise it's not really any more convenient than just writing it as the boring if/elsif or cond or whatever the syntax might be 2021-01-06T14:25:07Z mangol: are you looking for something like (case-equal? x ("foo" ...) ("bar" ...) (else ...)) 2021-01-06T14:25:32Z mangol: and (define-case-macro case-equal? equal?) (define-case-macro case= =) etc. 2021-01-06T14:25:46Z LeoNerd: Well possibly, but in that particular case (pardon the phrasing), Oh.. I see. Hmm 2021-01-06T14:25:57Z LeoNerd: So you can define new macros with different test operators, and then invoke those.. 2021-01-06T14:27:05Z mangol: yeah. it can be done, and has been done. but it may not be much of an improvement over (fcase equal? x ...) and (fcase = x ...). maybe it's easier to avoid mistakes using it? 2021-01-06T14:27:31Z LeoNerd: Oh hangon.. fcase takes /one/ function at the beginning? 2021-01-06T14:27:48Z mangol: sorry, i was using `fcase` for two different macros 2021-01-06T14:28:13Z mangol: maybe another name... (compare-case equal? x ...) (compare-case = x ...) 2021-01-06T14:28:24Z LeoNerd: Yes.. that sort of thing 2021-01-06T14:29:00Z LeoNerd: Because once you have such a syntax, it's no great extension to suddenly consider "comparison" functions that aren't symmetric. E.g. (compare-case has-colour? ball (case Red ...) (case Blue ...)) 2021-01-06T14:29:05Z mangol: both fcase (the earlier one) and this cmpcase make sense, and have been independently rediscovered by many people over time :) 2021-01-06T14:29:12Z mangol: true 2021-01-06T14:29:42Z mangol: or (expression-case (does-thing? foo _ bar) (jump ...) (run ...)) 2021-01-06T14:29:55Z LeoNerd: Imean admittedly in this example you'd probably do some more fundamental comparison on (colour ball) ... but in general it might be useful 2021-01-06T14:29:57Z mangol: where `_` denotes "put the case head at this position in the argument list" 2021-01-06T14:30:09Z LeoNerd: Yes... 2021-01-06T14:30:50Z LeoNerd: Because suddenly if your macro/syntax/whatever is basically defined as "well look it's just equivalent to the obvious cond chain", then you have a simple way to understand how that all gets expanded 2021-01-06T14:38:04Z LeoNerd: Of course the problem I keep running into with such syntax ideas in Perl as compared Scheme, is that in Scheme any of these comparison operators are really just named functions and commonly can be passed around quite normally by name alone, whereas in Perl they're all infix operators which syntactically don't really make sense on their own without their operands, ... so if nothing else it just looks "odd" to >> 2021-01-06T14:38:04Z LeoNerd: << see a dangling operator sitting about by itself 2021-01-06T14:38:53Z mangol: functional languages have a syntax that lets you turn any operator into a function 2021-01-06T14:39:05Z LeoNerd: Yeah... 2021-01-06T14:40:34Z mangol: for example in SML: List.foldl (op +) 0 [1, 2, 3, 4] 2021-01-06T14:40:37Z LeoNerd: The early Perl language design (such as the word applies) kinda suffers this problem that it basically doesn't have many holes left in it. More-or-less any sequence of characters, symbols, keywords,... already has some meaning. So it's hard to introduce new things with new syntax, that doesn't step on some existing toes 2021-01-06T14:40:40Z LeoNerd: However weird those toes are 2021-01-06T14:41:17Z LeoNerd: I have often wanted to use some character (e.g. _) to represent a gap in some expression much as your example above with expression-case, but there just aren't any symbols left at all for that purpose 2021-01-06T14:42:30Z mangol: exactly. C has the same problem. from a Lisp point of view, those languages are overfitted to the kinds of problems that happened to be prominent at the time they were made 2021-01-06T14:43:09Z LeoNerd: About the only thing I've come up with so far is just relying on special places within the syntax of specific keywords.. so my current design of a match/case syntax looks like match($var : ==) { case (1) { say "It's one" } case (2, 3, 4) { say "It's under 5" } ... } 2021-01-06T14:43:18Z mangol: Perl is overfitted to string processing; C is overfitted to pointers 2021-01-06T14:43:26Z LeoNerd: Which is sortof OK, it just looks /really/ unnatural and outofplace, to put that == there just sitting around loose 2021-01-06T14:43:34Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-06T14:43:36Z LeoNerd: And abuses the colon, because Everyone Wants The Colon 2021-01-06T14:43:51Z LeoNerd: and I didn't fancy a noiseword like match($var using ==) ... 2021-01-06T14:44:32Z LeoNerd: I also wanted to try to keep the pieces reading left-to-right properly, with the infix operator still "in the middle" between the controlling expression and the various case constants 2021-01-06T14:44:39Z mangol: IMHO we should edit code in a GUI so everyone can pick whatever syntax they like, and use S-expressions as the on-disk format. But this view is not popular :) 2021-01-06T14:44:46Z LeoNerd: Mmmm :) 2021-01-06T14:44:57Z mangol: syntax should be a UI problem, languages should be about semantics 2021-01-06T14:45:03Z LeoNerd: Oh indeed 2021-01-06T14:45:23Z LeoNerd: But you have to have /some/ amount of syntax to express the idea otherwise you literally can't write the program 2021-01-06T14:45:44Z mangol: these debates about how much we can torture out of the ASCII symbols and in what ways never come closer to a conclusion 2021-01-06T14:45:51Z LeoNerd: Mmmm 2021-01-06T14:46:03Z LeoNerd: Oh, yeah I continue to feel that ASCII doesn't have enough matched pairs in it 2021-01-06T14:46:36Z LeoNerd: I think on a careful counting I can manage to find 11 different ways that Perl -might- want a left/right handed pair.. and there's only really four pairs to go around - three if you want to keep using < and > for numerical comparisons 2021-01-06T14:46:46Z mangol: you literally (no pun intended, and sorry about the millennial slang) don't need any syntax do represent code, unless binary S-expressions count as syntax 2021-01-06T14:46:54Z mangol: [in which case morse code also counts as syntax] 2021-01-06T14:47:18Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T14:47:37Z LeoNerd: It crops up sometimes because {braces} are used both to delimit blocks of code (in which they stand as, and contain statements), and to be an anonymous hash(think alist, or dict) constructor - where they contain and stand as an expression 2021-01-06T14:48:13Z LeoNerd: Those ambiguities would go away if there was a different pair of symbols used for each purpopse 2021-01-06T14:48:16Z LeoNerd: *purpose 2021-01-06T14:49:36Z mangol: to be replaced by new ambiguities as he desire emerges (at predictable intervals) to add new data types and operators as first-class syntactic citizens 2021-01-06T14:49:51Z LeoNerd: Yah.. :/ 2021-01-06T14:50:25Z LeoNerd: It's why I'm keen to add as much new syntax using head-first keywords... They are easier on the eyes to read, easier to guess meaning and semantics and precedence and so on... 2021-01-06T14:50:54Z mangol: GUIs are fundamentally sane because each GUI widget is a rectangle that knows where its own boundaries lie. 2021-01-06T14:51:02Z LeoNerd: Oh, and it's why I'm annoyed that so many POSIX functions are firstclass keywords in Perl, ... because damnit I really wanted a `bind` syntax for doing structure unpack into lexical variables 2021-01-06T14:51:30Z LeoNerd: if(bind ($first, $second, @rest) = @list) ... would have been nice 2021-01-06T14:51:42Z LeoNerd: But no.. bind tries to attach a network address to a socket. :( 2021-01-06T14:53:21Z LeoNerd: Actually that said, `let` is still free ;) 2021-01-06T14:53:40Z LeoNerd: Which is actually why I came here in the first place - I was wondering if there's a conditional `let` 2021-01-06T14:54:17Z mangol: yes - if-let, and-let are pretty common macros 2021-01-06T14:54:44Z mangol: these are sometimes called anaphoric macros 2021-01-06T14:55:03Z mangol: the book On Lisp has a chapter dedicated to them IIRC 2021-01-06T14:55:10Z LeoNerd: Oh, huh that doesn't quite look what I had in mind 2021-01-06T14:55:38Z LeoNerd: This relates back to type constraints or structure unpacking or various other things, where the variable binding itself can succeed or fail 2021-01-06T14:56:16Z LeoNerd: So rather than failing with some sort of exception semantics, the entire "conditional let" just evaluates false instead of true 2021-01-06T14:56:38Z mangol: in functional languages like Scheme there are only expressions, no statements. every expression returns a value 2021-01-06T14:57:11Z mangol: `guard` (Scheme exception handler) is an expression, so you can return a value in case an exception is raised, and a different value if no exception 2021-01-06T14:57:12Z gwatt: LeoNerd: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-2/srfi-2.html 2021-01-06T14:57:30Z LeoNerd: Indeed.. it's more the concept of a `let` that could fail in some way... what would cause it to fail? 2021-01-06T14:57:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-06T14:58:20Z mangol: a meaningful definition of failure could be almost anything, depending on what your application/library needs 2021-01-06T14:58:28Z LeoNerd: gwatt: Yeah; that's testing the -values- that were assigned, not the success of the assignment itself 2021-01-06T14:58:39Z mangol: on the language level, Scheme raises exceptions or returns false to indicate failure. but this is just a convention 2021-01-06T14:58:51Z LeoNerd: mangol: Yeah so that comes back to things like type constraints on the variables, or structure unpacking or whatever 2021-01-06T14:59:05Z LeoNerd: Which I'm not sure Scheme has much of, to use as precedent here :/ 2021-01-06T14:59:37Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T14:59:48Z mangol: I've used things like this: (let ((name (the-string (get-property 'name something)))) ...) 2021-01-06T15:00:14Z mangol: where (the-string x) checks whether x is a string. if it is, returns x. if not, raises an exception. 2021-01-06T15:00:20Z LeoNerd: Ooh I think I recall there being a `let-values` perhaps..? So maybe that might illustrate. (let-values ((a b . rest) some-list) ...) 2021-01-06T15:00:32Z LeoNerd: What happens if some-list doesn't have at least 2 elements to it? 2021-01-06T15:00:45Z gwatt: undefined, probably explode 2021-01-06T15:00:48Z LeoNerd: Right. That's my point 2021-01-06T15:00:57Z LeoNerd: What if there was a `let-values?` which yields true or false 2021-01-06T15:00:59Z mangol: in functional languages we prefer composable primitives where possible. there's no need to bake `the-string` into a variant of `let` because it works just as well standalone 2021-01-06T15:01:03Z tryte quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T15:01:29Z lloda: that's just an error, same as calling a 2 arg function with 1 arg 2021-01-06T15:01:35Z gwatt: LeoNerd: you can do that (let-values ((a b . rest) some-values-expr) #t) 2021-01-06T15:01:40Z LeoNerd: So if there were enough values (and in general, whatever other constraints the let-like form had) were satisfied, then it's true and works, otherwise it's false and doesn't. 2021-01-06T15:01:53Z LeoNerd: gwatt: my point being if it fails, it's just false. always defined false 2021-01-06T15:01:57Z mangol: and the standalone version can be used in any context, whereas a purpose-built macro can only be used for that one task 2021-01-06T15:02:02Z LeoNerd: So you can use it conditionally 2021-01-06T15:02:03Z xelxebar_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T15:02:26Z LeoNerd: Oh holdup this whole example doesn't quite make sense in Scheme... 2021-01-06T15:02:42Z LeoNerd: let takes a code -body- for the scope of the binding... 2021-01-06T15:02:55Z mangol: LeoNerd: even checking the number of values, and coping with failure in some way, can be done using an ordinary procedure in Scheme 2021-01-06T15:02:57Z LeoNerd: It doesn't introduce new variables visible to later statements within the same block 2021-01-06T15:03:45Z mangol: yeah `let` makes a new block 2021-01-06T15:04:23Z LeoNerd: The overall effect I was after, was an expression that creates variables and yields a boolean to say whether it managed to assign them, so you could use it in a conditional of some kind 2021-01-06T15:04:49Z LeoNerd: Perl already allows if(my $thing = whatever()) { ... } which is just equivalent to (if-let ...) 2021-01-06T15:04:50Z mangol: you can make a version of `let` in whose body one can type assignments, which implicitly create variables at the scope of the parent block, but Lispers generally don't like it. it's especially confusing with macros. 2021-01-06T15:05:08Z LeoNerd: Because variables created in an if() condition are visible to the body of the block 2021-01-06T15:05:14Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-06T15:05:18Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-06T15:05:55Z LeoNerd: But the condition here is based on the truth of the /value/ that was assigned. I wanted a whole new concept, that assingments can succeed or fail based on constraints -about- that value, and thus the truth of whether or not the assignent even happened isn't just the boolean truth of the value assigned 2021-01-06T15:06:21Z mangol: that sounds like generators that can succeed or fail in the Icon [sic?] language 2021-01-06T15:06:25Z gwatt: LeoNerd: there's a cond syntax like that: (cond ((test-expr => procedure))) 2021-01-06T15:06:36Z LeoNerd: gwatt: Right but those can't bind new variables 2021-01-06T15:07:00Z gwatt: it calls the procedure with the value of test-expr, which is like binding a new variable 2021-01-06T15:07:03Z mangol: in what scope would you like to bind the variables? 2021-01-06T15:07:32Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-06T15:08:26Z LeoNerd: Mm... so you hit upon a fun question there 2021-01-06T15:08:45Z mangol: it's possible to write a (here-be-dragons ...) macro that uses a code walker to look for all (conditional or unconditional) variable assignments in its body, 2021-01-06T15:09:20Z mangol: and implicitly creates `let` around the whole scope for all of the variables assigned. it has been done, but lispers typically don't like it. 2021-01-06T15:09:23Z LeoNerd: So initially I was tempted down the Scheme-like path that is to play UNIX/Lego with the language, having a collection of small pieces that can be combined together 2021-01-06T15:09:55Z LeoNerd: Already currently Perl has `my` which creates new lexical variables, separate from the idea of the `=` assignment operator which gives them a value. Often seen combined `my $one = 1;` but they don't have to be 2021-01-06T15:10:36Z LeoNerd: But that then raises the question of, if you start putting type constraints on these things that can fail, is the constraint a property of the variable itself, or the action of assigning a value to it? 2021-01-06T15:10:53Z LeoNerd: Because those can happen at different times 2021-01-06T15:11:43Z mangol: do you want an assignment statement that you can use to assign a value to an undefined variable, 2021-01-06T15:11:53Z mangol: and if the assignment succeeds, the variable then becomes defined with that value 2021-01-06T15:12:01Z mangol: and if the assignment fails, the variable stays undefined? 2021-01-06T15:12:47Z mangol: instead of being defined with some dummy value (like false) if the assignment fails? 2021-01-06T15:12:54Z LeoNerd: We should be careful with the word "undefined". Perl already has a unique special value, called `undef` which is perfectly "defined" in the regular English meaning of the word,... that just happens to be the special value of any variable that hasn't yet been assigned to 2021-01-06T15:13:25Z LeoNerd: (yes it's named terribly, but so is a lot of Perl >.>) 2021-01-06T15:14:11Z mangol: lisp scoping rules (requiring an explicit use of `let` to indicate variable scope, and not giving implicit values to undefined variables) are deliberately designed to avoid problems like this 2021-01-06T15:14:12Z LeoNerd: It's perhaps similar to nil of CL 2021-01-06T15:14:19Z LeoNerd: Yeah, definitely 2021-01-06T15:14:33Z LeoNerd: It's OK though, you can just imagine a bare `my $thing;` as reading `my $thing = undef;` 2021-01-06T15:15:00Z LeoNerd: And `undef` is just "some special value we can recognise as being unique", and distinct from boolean false or numerical zero or empty string 2021-01-06T15:15:29Z mangol: Common Lisp allows (let (foo) ...) which sets foo to nil. Scheme forbids (let (foo) ...) you need to explicitly say (let ((foo #f)) ...) i.e. always give an initial value 2021-01-06T15:15:45Z LeoNerd: Yah; Perl is much like CL in that regard then 2021-01-06T15:16:07Z LeoNerd: You certainly don't get the UB problem of C ;) 2021-01-06T15:16:09Z mangol: but CL throws you an error if you try to access `foo` outside the `let` 2021-01-06T15:16:36Z mangol: the UB problem does certainly exist in both CL and Scheme. some fanboys just pretend it doesn't :) 2021-01-06T15:16:46Z LeoNerd: letrec ;) 2021-01-06T15:16:54Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T15:17:54Z mangol: some Scheme implementations have an `undefined` value as well, but as in other languages that have it, it's a bit dodgy. in most/all of those situations one could just as well use #f (false) 2021-01-06T15:18:10Z LeoNerd: But yes back to the question of where the constraints lie - I think it's still an open and interesting one.. I'm not sure I have a good answer for it 2021-01-06T15:18:25Z mangol: `undefined` can be a useful return value from standard procedures where the standard does not specify which value is returned 2021-01-06T15:18:36Z mangol: so the programmer is warned to avoid portability pitfalls 2021-01-06T15:18:57Z LeoNerd: I think generally, program authors would find it more useful that the type constraints apply to the variables themselves - beacuse that's sortof the entire point of them. A typeconstrained variable gives you some more guarantee about the kind of values you'd read from it 2021-01-06T15:19:34Z mangol: it's not at all the point of variables. binding a value to a name, and checking the type of a value, are two completely separate things 2021-01-06T15:19:40Z LeoNerd: But I think I'd still want two kinds of assignment operator to set values into them - one that throws on constraint failure, and one that returns something boolean 2021-01-06T15:20:38Z mangol: even in static functional languages, which are super strict about well-typed code, the type checking applies first and foremost to all expressions. only incidentally to variables 2021-01-06T15:20:40Z LeoNerd: Oh nono, I just meant given the choice between "variables can be typed" and "assignments can check types", I think the former is more useful. It means that, at any given point in the program, any constraints that apply are a purely static property of the variables in scope, and not the dynamic history of what most recently assigned to them 2021-01-06T15:21:48Z mangol: either can be useful. in lisp culture, we don't generally make blanket statements about what programming techniques are useful or useless without reference to specific applications 2021-01-06T15:22:00Z LeoNerd: Mmm... 2021-01-06T15:22:24Z LeoNerd: Well, I'm somewhat approaching this by looking at the vast collection of stuff already on CPAN where people try to work around missing things like this :) 2021-01-06T15:22:24Z mangol: i'd agree that most of the time, any given variable can be expected to hold values of only one type 2021-01-06T15:22:27Z LeoNerd: So I have some base to start from 2021-01-06T15:23:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T15:24:01Z mangol: a (let-type ((foo string? )) ...) could be useful 2021-01-06T15:24:38Z mangol: though having (set! foo ...) in the body also typecheck the new value of `foo` would be harder to do 2021-01-06T15:24:46Z LeoNerd: Mmm... so then my question on this one becomes: would you permit a `let-type?` which returns #t / #f rather than raising an exception, if the constraint failed 2021-01-06T15:25:10Z LeoNerd: Actually I suppose that's badly named... a "foo?" shuoldn't have side-effects 2021-01-06T15:25:21Z mangol: if it makes the code for your application better, you should do it. if not, probably not worth it. 2021-01-06T15:25:58Z LeoNerd: So... a common thing in Perl (much moreso than C I find) is introducing new variables in if or while conditions... 2021-01-06T15:26:09Z lockywolf: https://github.com/lockywolf/srfi-216 2021-01-06T15:26:16Z LeoNerd: while(my $thing = $iterator->next) { ... } is quite common. And also terrible, because it will stop on the first false value from the iterator 2021-01-06T15:26:23Z lockywolf: Could people run the tests for srfi-216 on other schemes? 2021-01-06T15:26:38Z LeoNerd: Which is where I wanted a (bind variable, assign, something?) that yielded the truth of its ability to assign, rather than the value that was assigned 2021-01-06T15:28:40Z mangol: if you use #f (false) to indicate "was not able to assign" then you can probably make reasonable use of if-let or and-let to do that 2021-01-06T15:29:28Z LeoNerd: Not currently, when regular assignment yields the value that was assigned 2021-01-06T15:29:42Z mangol: if you need #f for some other purpose, I'd first try to solve the problem using multiple values and (receive ...) aka (let-values ...). I don't know whether anyone has done if-let-values, could be done but semantics are not obvious 2021-01-06T15:29:45Z LeoNerd: If your iterator wanted to yield a series of true and false values, the loop stops too early 2021-01-06T15:30:30Z mangol: Scheme conventionally uses (eof-object) and (eof-object?) to detect the end of a stream (or iterator, aka generator) 2021-01-06T15:30:59Z LeoNerd: Righty.. so here hypothetically you'd create a type constraint that accepts anything except that eof sentinel, and use a typed assignment 2021-01-06T15:31:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T15:31:35Z LeoNerd: (the actual pattern in Perl would probably be to realise that actually every function returns a list of values, not just one value; and you can distinguish the empty-list return from anything else.. so you'd return either a one-element list, or an empty list) 2021-01-06T15:31:38Z mangol: schemers also don't use while loops much :) we use recursion and higher-order functions 2021-01-06T15:31:44Z GoGi quit (Quit: GoGi) 2021-01-06T15:32:23Z LeoNerd: I've never liked sentinel values to signal an end of iteration in that case. They're always horrible 2021-01-06T15:33:18Z LeoNerd: There's a terrible example from Raku, where someone tries to ask the introspective part of the langauge compiler to list all of its basic symbols. Whenever you run the program you get randomly about half of the known symbols, in no particular order 2021-01-06T15:33:21Z mangol: CL uses an exception instead of eof-object to denote the end of a stream. eof-object leads to dramatically more readable code 2021-01-06T15:33:38Z LeoNerd: The key insight is to realise that at some point it encounters the EndOfIteration symbol, and thus stops without error 2021-01-06T15:34:16Z mangol: that's why eof-object is a unique object that is guaranteed to be unequal to every other object 2021-01-06T15:34:28Z LeoNerd: But still equal to itself? 2021-01-06T15:34:31Z mangol: yes 2021-01-06T15:34:39Z LeoNerd: So you can't ever put /that/ object into a collection of other things 2021-01-06T15:34:46Z mangol: (eq? (eof-object) (eof-object)) => #t 2021-01-06T15:34:46Z phoe6 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-01-06T15:34:56Z mangol: correct 2021-01-06T15:35:11Z mangol: but it has no other use besides being a sentinel value 2021-01-06T15:35:11Z elliott_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T15:35:17Z LeoNerd: Yeah;.. I still dislike it 2021-01-06T15:35:33Z mangol: it's a massive improvement in practice 2021-01-06T15:35:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-06T15:35:39Z LeoNerd: It feels like the same as early C programmers saying that you can't put "\0" into a string, because the "\0" is the value that demarks the end of the string 2021-01-06T15:35:56Z LeoNerd: It might be rarer to encounter in practice but it's still the same class of issue 2021-01-06T15:36:08Z mangol: for situations where you need to genuinely represent it, you can use boxes, or maybe/either wrappers, or wrap it in a list or a vector, or use multiple values 2021-01-06T15:36:20Z GoGi joined #scheme 2021-01-06T15:36:40Z LeoNerd: I like the ability for an iterator to be able to say "here is another value" with no constraints at all about that value, as being distinct from "there are no more values" 2021-01-06T15:36:53Z mangol: that's very different. strings contain characters. '\0' is a character. eof-object is not a character, nor an integer, etc. 2021-01-06T15:37:11Z GoGi quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-06T15:37:24Z LeoNerd: Sure, but it's still a firstclass value that can be stored in a variable and passed around and have questions asked about it 2021-01-06T15:37:45Z mangol: for special purposes like that, make an iterator that returns two values, one the real value and the other an end marker 2021-01-06T15:38:04Z mangol: of take a callback and stop calling it when you have no more data. or take a return continuation and tail-call it when no more data. 2021-01-06T15:38:12Z LeoNerd: (collection-put l eof-object) (collection-put l eof-object) (collection-put l eof-object) (collection-coutn l) <== I really would expect to see 3, regardless of how we count 2021-01-06T15:38:21Z mangol: in practice, we're just not seeing the problems you mention 2021-01-06T15:38:29Z amirouche: the value returned by the procedure `eof-object` is handy as sentinel, but I try not the over-use it (instead I create my own custom sentinel objects) 2021-01-06T15:39:34Z GoGi joined #scheme 2021-01-06T15:39:47Z mangol: collection and generator (aka iterator) are two different concepts. a collection should indeed generally be able to store an eof-object 2021-01-06T15:40:10Z mangol: and be able to retrieve it, and not trip on eof-objects when iterating its contents 2021-01-06T15:40:11Z amirouche: scheme generator use eof-object to make the end of the generator, if you want to iterate over eof-objects, you need first to wrap them inside another object. 2021-01-06T15:40:29Z amirouche: s/make/mark/ 2021-01-06T15:40:50Z amirouche: (or rewrite scheme generator to use another end-of-generator sentinel...) 2021-01-06T15:41:06Z LeoNerd: ... in any case I think we've strayed somewhat from my original musings ;) 2021-01-06T15:41:15Z LeoNerd: But I have an amount of ideas to think about there anyhow 2021-01-06T15:41:23Z mangol: a collection (good example: hash-table) generally provides different accessors for fetching an object with a default value, and for testing whether an object is present 2021-01-06T15:42:08Z mangol: so it's not confused by eof-object, but if you know you don't need to care about the difference between a key present with an eof-object value, and an absent key, you can use the more convenient accessor 2021-01-06T15:42:36Z amirouche: scheme hash-table is (almost?) perfect! 2021-01-06T15:43:00Z mangol: for most generators (iterators), you're typically expected to arrange your data types so that you don't alias eof-object for some purpose you need to care about 2021-01-06T15:43:57Z mangol: perfect hash table :D 2021-01-06T15:44:10Z mangol: no pun intended, i presume 2021-01-06T15:44:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T15:49:02Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-06T15:50:17Z mangol: Common Lisp does sentinel handling like this: (read [input-stream eof-error-p eof-value]) 2021-01-06T15:50:42Z mangol: eof-error-p (default true) says whether or not to raise an exception when end-of-file has been reached 2021-01-06T15:51:14Z mangol: eof-value (default nil) says what value to return on end-of-file if you don't wait to raise an exception 2021-01-06T15:58:18Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-06T15:59:28Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-06T16:00:35Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-06T16:02:24Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-06T16:05:03Z renken joined #scheme 2021-01-06T16:05:03Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-06T16:06:13Z renken_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T16:13:42Z ex_nihilo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-06T16:27:19Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-06T16:31:51Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T16:33:12Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-06T16:41:47Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-06T16:42:47Z jcowan: LeoNerd, mangol: another point is that the eof object has no external representation 2021-01-06T16:43:54Z mangol: jcowan: for better or worse, that is no longer true: https://registry.scheme.org/#hash-bang-syntax 2021-01-06T16:44:14Z mangol: #!eof is in Chez Scheme, Chicken, Gambit, Kawa 2021-01-06T16:44:24Z jcowan: Yes, a few implementations extend the syntax in this way 2021-01-06T16:44:44Z Riastradh: #!eof is ridiculous 2021-01-06T16:45:04Z jcowan agrees 2021-01-06T16:45:05Z mangol: (eof-object) now accomplishes the same thing in a standard way 2021-01-06T16:45:51Z jcowan: It makes more sense for the eof object to have a write-only syntax like #. 2021-01-06T16:46:10Z mangol: agree that a write-only syntax is better 2021-01-06T16:50:07Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T16:54:59Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-06T16:58:19Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-06T17:05:53Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-06T17:11:15Z iltutmus quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-06T17:11:24Z iltutmus joined #scheme 2021-01-06T17:13:21Z stzsch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-06T17:17:41Z stzsch joined #scheme 2021-01-06T17:27:04Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-06T17:47:52Z gwatt: I've seen #!eof used to quick end scheme files and allow arbitrary text below. 2021-01-06T17:52:22Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T17:52:45Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-06T17:53:52Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-06T17:55:30Z mangol: gwatt: IMHO that kind of thing makes a good case for _not_ having #!eof :) shell scripts have been abused similarly 2021-01-06T17:57:00Z mangol: a popular game was shipped for linux as a one-gigabyte shell script 2021-01-06T17:57:30Z mangol: that contained the installer and all the game data files 2021-01-06T17:57:32Z gwatt: was it a self-extracting tar file? 2021-01-06T17:57:40Z mangol: self extracting shell script :) 2021-01-06T17:57:57Z mangol: like shar 2021-01-06T17:58:01Z gwatt: which game was this? 2021-01-06T17:58:16Z mangol: IIRC something in the Unreal franchise. maybe Unreal Tournament 2021-01-06T17:59:55Z mangol: as a general rule, whenever any programmer is pleased at how convenient something is, it means other people will need to be working around the damage for a couple decades... at least if the invention is popular, as convenient things often are 2021-01-06T18:08:00Z mangol: in this case, many people have written shell script parsers and it's highly non-trivial to make compatible parsers because `read` and `eval` need to be freely mixed for full compatibility with /bin/sh 2021-01-06T18:09:20Z mangol: it you read everything first and then eval, hacky scripts may not work. the Common Lisp reader may have the same problem due to the programmable read syntax 2021-01-06T18:10:23Z mangol: mixing read and eval also means that if you edit a long-running script in a text editor and save while it's running, the shell may start interpreting the new script halfway through the old one 2021-01-06T18:12:02Z mangol: that can be countered by buffering the entire script before starting to parse any of it. but not if people leveraged the opportunity to make a 1 GiB Unreal installer :) 2021-01-06T18:14:29Z gwatt: I think gog ships similar installers for their linux games 2021-01-06T18:16:41Z mangol: that installer may have beeen from gog as well 2021-01-06T18:18:47Z mangol: the lesson is that anytime we add a feature someone will depend on it, and we all think our pet features are really important so it's hard to remove any of them 2021-01-06T18:19:54Z mangol: sorry, didn't meant to start a sermon :p 2021-01-06T18:21:00Z Zipheir: Creeping featurism. :) 2021-01-06T18:21:35Z mangol: yeah. plan 9 and suckless are really good at countering it, but people who do that tend to suffer from few users, as Scheme and Lisp do to some extent 2021-01-06T18:21:43Z mangol: and forth, of course 2021-01-06T18:23:10Z mangol: though mixing read and eval in /bin/sh may be due to memory limitations on old computers. easier if you don't have to build a syntax tree in memory 2021-01-06T18:24:13Z mangol: a script can `exit` when it doesn't want to read the rest of itself. files are evaluated just like REPL input 2021-01-06T18:24:20Z Zipheir: It may also have to do with the Bourne shell's multi-pass parse-eval-parse way of doing things. 2021-01-06T18:24:51Z Zipheir: (Ah, the hazards of "everything is a string".) 2021-01-06T18:24:59Z mangol: you mean expanding things like "$(foo)", or something different? 2021-01-06T18:25:20Z Zipheir: Well, any expansion. 2021-01-06T18:26:09Z Zipheir: That was one of Tom Duff's biggest issues with the original sh design. A string has to be expanded, then reparsed in traditional shs. 2021-01-06T18:28:53Z Zipheir: Tom Duff: "First of all, I don't think a shell should be a macro expander." 2021-01-06T18:29:24Z jitwit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T18:29:41Z mangol: a Lisp macro causes a reparse, but no a re-lex 2021-01-06T18:30:48Z mangol: my terminology may be fuzzy because Lisp is "parsed" into an in-memory image of the S-expression, and then "parsed" again for its meaning in the programming language 2021-01-06T18:31:26Z Zipheir: The terminology is usually a bit different in the Lisp world, yes. 2021-01-06T18:32:00Z mangol: are "concrete syntax trees" a thing? 2021-01-06T18:32:31Z Zipheir: No idea. I don't think I've ever heard of _concrete_ trees. 2021-01-06T18:35:38Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-06T18:37:00Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-06T18:45:57Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-06T18:47:37Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-06T18:47:40Z mangol: Anton van Straaten is the best guess for who is running community.schemewiki.org. Does anyone know how to reach him? 2021-01-06T18:48:06Z Riastradh: I think he disappeared from the face of the earth. 2021-01-06T18:48:35Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-06T18:50:26Z Zipheir: He's one of the R6 editors, though. 2021-01-06T18:58:16Z Zipheir: Suzuki and the Bach Collegium Japan do the best recordings, IMHO. I've tried to find everything of theirs. 2021-01-06T18:58:32Z Zipheir: Sorry, ww. 2021-01-06T19:17:08Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-06T19:23:22Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme 2021-01-06T19:28:17Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-06T19:32:38Z wasamasa: mangol: I think I've seen such a thing in the CL world 2021-01-06T19:38:32Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-06T19:38:48Z wasamasa: mangol: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Concrete-Syntax-Tree 2021-01-06T19:39:25Z wasamasa: mangol: racket implements something along the lines 2021-01-06T19:49:18Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-06T20:05:51Z sxmx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T20:06:52Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-01-06T20:20:37Z civodul: wasamasa: those CSTs look like special-purpose syntax objects, no? 2021-01-06T20:20:59Z wasamasa: dunno, they're probably just structs/records 2021-01-06T20:24:39Z civodul: yeah 2021-01-06T20:24:53Z civodul: it's interesting anyway 2021-01-06T20:25:34Z wasamasa: I've seen a similar thing with rapid scheme, but I don't know whether it used the same term 2021-01-06T20:28:38Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-06T20:39:54Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-06T20:53:01Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T20:55:52Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-06T21:06:22Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-06T21:16:31Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-06T21:20:23Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-06T21:28:04Z aquijoule_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T21:28:24Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-01-06T21:43:19Z amerigo joined #scheme 2021-01-06T21:46:27Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-06T22:15:09Z miasuji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-06T22:16:03Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-06T22:16:21Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-06T22:24:14Z jcowan: It's like abstract data types: "Those things are about as abstract as int and float." 2021-01-06T22:27:28Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T22:27:41Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-06T22:45:27Z Cesdo joined #scheme 2021-01-06T22:47:33Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T22:47:46Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-06T22:54:45Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-06T22:57:07Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-06T23:02:37Z mangol: wasamasa: nice library! 2021-01-06T23:03:36Z mangol: is there any viable way to host a pastebin service on a website without turning it into an abuse magnet and having to shut it down? 2021-01-06T23:04:34Z mangol: would be nice to have paste.scheme.org, but pastebin sites on the whole tend not to last long 2021-01-06T23:13:49Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-06T23:14:45Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-06T23:15:01Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-06T23:15:29Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-06T23:16:06Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-06T23:25:49Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-06T23:30:38Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-06T23:48:16Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-07T00:00:08Z grobe0ba has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz. 2021-01-07T00:12:07Z jcowan: Chicken's got one that notifies #chicken, but it still gets spam that has to be removed by hand. 2021-01-07T00:12:17Z jcowan: or had one 2021-01-07T00:13:22Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-07T00:16:25Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T00:39:38Z Cesdo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-07T00:57:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T01:03:22Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-07T01:06:42Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-07T01:22:31Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T01:34:05Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-07T01:34:58Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-07T02:17:52Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-07T02:24:07Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-01-07T02:33:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T02:34:50Z mason left #scheme 2021-01-07T02:34:52Z torbo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-07T02:48:04Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-07T03:03:01Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-07T03:09:03Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T03:10:27Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-07T03:19:35Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T03:24:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-07T03:24:16Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-07T03:26:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T03:32:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-07T03:39:19Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T04:00:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-07T04:07:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T04:12:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T04:14:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T04:19:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-07T04:24:13Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-07T04:27:36Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T04:32:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T04:32:58Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T04:33:33Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-07T04:40:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T04:40:18Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T04:40:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-07T04:45:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T05:09:01Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-07T05:20:54Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-01-07T05:20:58Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T05:26:18Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T05:29:34Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-07T05:30:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T05:47:44Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-07T05:51:23Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T05:58:22Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-07T05:59:53Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-07T06:09:55Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-07T06:11:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T06:11:38Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-07T06:15:14Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-07T06:18:38Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-07T06:19:59Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-07T06:20:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-07T06:32:24Z oni-on-ion quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-01-07T06:34:46Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-07T06:49:49Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:05:40Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-07T07:07:00Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:16:51Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T07:24:42Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-07T07:24:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T07:24:55Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:26:50Z ravndal joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:28:57Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:30:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T07:31:21Z ex_nihilo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T07:32:37Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:34:25Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:34:46Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:34:51Z ex_nihilo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T07:35:09Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:42:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T07:54:03Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:57:36Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-07T07:58:13Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-07T08:07:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T08:12:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T08:19:05Z renken quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T08:19:30Z renken joined #scheme 2021-01-07T09:06:26Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-07T09:08:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T09:24:31Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-07T09:28:14Z todun joined #scheme 2021-01-07T09:59:06Z wasamasa: yeah, there's been some time where people had to regularly remove spam 2021-01-07T09:59:16Z wasamasa: I've also found a CAPTCHA bypass by accident 2021-01-07T09:59:30Z wasamasa: and fixed it shortly after, but still distressing 2021-01-07T10:04:05Z raoul joined #scheme 2021-01-07T10:06:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T10:08:18Z f8l quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-07T10:08:20Z todun quit (Quit: todun) 2021-01-07T10:11:39Z f8l joined #scheme 2021-01-07T10:39:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T10:41:11Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T10:45:43Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-07T10:47:42Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-07T11:08:56Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T11:38:23Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T11:44:43Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T11:51:37Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-07T11:51:44Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-07T11:52:14Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-07T12:18:50Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T12:22:21Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-07T12:29:58Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-07T12:31:27Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-07T12:32:20Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-07T12:36:55Z raingloom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T12:37:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T12:41:53Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-07T12:45:16Z faLUCE joined #scheme 2021-01-07T12:46:13Z faLUCE: hello, given the following list: ((x-ref-of-1 . true) (blabla . true)) how can I check if (blabla . true) is in the list ? 2021-01-07T12:49:51Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-07T13:02:02Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T13:09:27Z wasamasa: member 2021-01-07T13:10:13Z wasamasa: rudybot: remember, remember, member, memv and memq 2021-01-07T13:10:16Z rudybot: wasamasa: member uses equal? as the comparison, memv uses eqv? and memq uses eq? 2021-01-07T13:11:32Z ecraven: faLUCE: depending on your exact use case: member, memq, find, filter 2021-01-07T13:11:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T13:12:01Z fizzie: (Or assoc? I mean, that's an association list.) 2021-01-07T13:13:15Z iv4nshm4k0v: Or assq, assv, I suppose. 2021-01-07T13:23:44Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-07T13:28:15Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-07T13:41:42Z faLUCE: thanks! 2021-01-07T13:41:46Z faLUCE left #scheme 2021-01-07T13:53:43Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T14:05:02Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-07T14:13:02Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-07T14:20:41Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-01-07T14:21:01Z skapata is now known as Guest57823 2021-01-07T14:21:01Z skapate is now known as skapata 2021-01-07T14:24:05Z Guest57823 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-07T14:26:47Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-07T14:31:47Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-07T14:41:37Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-07T14:49:34Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-07T14:59:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T15:07:45Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-07T15:22:25Z renken quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T15:23:23Z renken joined #scheme 2021-01-07T15:25:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-07T15:30:40Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-07T15:36:28Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T15:43:53Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-07T16:02:23Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T16:06:53Z renken quit (Quit: Quit.) 2021-01-07T16:34:48Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-07T16:44:10Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-07T17:12:50Z dionysius joined #scheme 2021-01-07T17:14:32Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-07T17:22:33Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-07T17:34:20Z [d]_ joined #scheme 2021-01-07T17:35:28Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-07T17:40:25Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T17:46:02Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-07T17:48:41Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-07T17:48:45Z remby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-07T17:55:07Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-07T17:55:12Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-07T17:55:22Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-07T18:16:36Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-07T18:19:48Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-07T18:19:55Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-07T18:29:40Z dionysius quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-07T18:31:03Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T18:36:12Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-07T18:47:46Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-07T19:03:36Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T19:04:38Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-07T19:05:31Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-07T19:07:20Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-07T19:08:19Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-07T19:09:02Z gabot joined #scheme 2021-01-07T19:16:14Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-07T19:38:31Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-07T19:48:56Z Zipheir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T19:52:44Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-01-07T19:58:30Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-07T20:36:13Z ngz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T20:40:22Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-07T21:14:52Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-07T21:24:25Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-07T21:24:42Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T21:58:40Z aukkras joined #scheme 2021-01-07T22:16:27Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-07T22:18:58Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T22:19:25Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-07T22:21:35Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-07T22:22:25Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T22:33:07Z zgrep joined #scheme 2021-01-07T22:39:07Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T22:39:24Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-07T22:39:29Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-07T23:07:16Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-07T23:14:20Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T23:17:33Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-01-07T23:33:31Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T23:34:26Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-07T23:36:40Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-07T23:54:13Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-07T23:58:42Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-07T23:59:00Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T00:25:08Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-08T00:25:33Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-08T00:44:42Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-08T00:51:37Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T00:52:02Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T00:56:30Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-08T01:11:40Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T01:12:04Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T01:12:13Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-08T01:31:43Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T01:32:09Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T01:34:18Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-08T01:51:38Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-08T01:51:49Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T02:04:14Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T02:04:56Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-08T02:11:48Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T02:12:14Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T02:25:58Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T02:26:35Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-08T02:30:20Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T02:30:39Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-08T02:31:51Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T02:32:18Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T02:42:25Z raoul quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-08T02:43:33Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T02:49:56Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T02:50:09Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-08T02:50:19Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T03:02:18Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-08T03:12:12Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-08T03:14:23Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T03:21:48Z dto: what is the scheme equivalent of (delq nil my-list) ? 2021-01-08T03:24:16Z foof: is this nil the false value or the empty list? :) 2021-01-08T03:24:35Z dto: sorry , empty list 2021-01-08T03:25:07Z foof: (delete '() my-list eq?) 2021-01-08T03:25:16Z dto: ah. thank you :) 2021-01-08T03:25:26Z foof: or (remove null? my-list) 2021-01-08T03:25:37Z foof: both from SRFI 1 2021-01-08T03:26:05Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-08T03:27:02Z dto: hmm, there seems not to be delete function in S7. back to the manual... 2021-01-08T03:27:05Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-08T03:27:26Z dto: i'm in the odd situation of learning a weird scheme as my first scheme 2021-01-08T03:31:06Z lritter quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T03:32:22Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T03:32:46Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-08T03:33:39Z foof: try (import (srfi 1)) 2021-01-08T03:36:07Z dto: thank you foof . i will try that. 2021-01-08T03:39:30Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-08T03:44:26Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-08T03:44:45Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T03:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T03:58:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-08T03:59:15Z rg_ joined #scheme 2021-01-08T03:59:22Z rg_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T03:59:45Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-08T04:20:11Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-08T04:24:04Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-08T04:49:50Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-08T04:49:58Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T04:51:02Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-08T05:10:24Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T05:11:20Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-08T05:14:43Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T05:17:33Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-01-08T05:17:40Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-08T05:40:41Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-08T05:53:14Z oni-on-ion joined #scheme 2021-01-08T06:18:05Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-08T06:25:33Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T06:37:12Z thevishy joined #scheme 2021-01-08T06:47:36Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-08T06:49:33Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-08T07:04:41Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-08T07:19:24Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-08T07:49:20Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-08T07:57:06Z stux|work quit (Quit: Aloha!) 2021-01-08T07:59:31Z stux|work joined #scheme 2021-01-08T08:00:56Z thevishy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-08T08:35:31Z thevishy joined #scheme 2021-01-08T08:43:28Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-08T09:06:43Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-08T09:08:21Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-08T09:08:35Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-08T09:08:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-08T09:10:56Z belmarca95 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-08T09:26:11Z yhsiveht joined #scheme 2021-01-08T09:28:45Z thevishy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-08T09:30:02Z thevishy joined #scheme 2021-01-08T09:32:07Z yhsiveht quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-08T11:01:19Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-08T11:18:11Z wasamasa: found this scheme project: https://beast.testbit.eu/ 2021-01-08T11:18:15Z wasamasa: the logo cracks me up 2021-01-08T11:34:34Z wasamasa: I'm kind of sad aisleriot is 50/50 C and Scheme 2021-01-08T11:35:03Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-08T11:37:43Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-08T11:51:50Z tryte_ joined #scheme 2021-01-08T11:52:25Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T12:35:02Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-08T12:46:48Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-08T13:04:59Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-08T13:38:10Z stzsch|2 joined #scheme 2021-01-08T13:38:52Z stzsch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-08T13:41:05Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-08T13:41:23Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-08T13:47:25Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-08T13:54:06Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-08T14:13:31Z todun joined #scheme 2021-01-08T14:20:52Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-08T14:25:33Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-08T14:27:10Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-08T14:42:05Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-08T14:45:17Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-08T14:57:13Z yhsiveht joined #scheme 2021-01-08T14:59:30Z thevishy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-08T15:08:48Z thevishy joined #scheme 2021-01-08T15:10:56Z yhsiveht quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-08T15:33:20Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-08T15:36:28Z mirrorbird quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T16:17:38Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-08T16:50:15Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T16:51:24Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-08T16:55:13Z todun quit (Quit: todun) 2021-01-08T17:11:47Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-08T17:14:43Z raoul joined #scheme 2021-01-08T17:20:02Z dionysius joined #scheme 2021-01-08T17:20:29Z dionysius quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T17:25:06Z DKordic quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-08T17:30:12Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-08T17:40:57Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-08T17:43:10Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-08T17:45:14Z Steeve quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T17:45:17Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-08T17:48:28Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-08T17:49:43Z mirrorbird quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T18:05:59Z thevishy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-08T18:12:54Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-08T18:17:31Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-08T18:30:02Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-08T18:34:25Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-08T18:35:00Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T18:49:56Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-08T18:50:15Z Steeve quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T18:56:44Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-08T18:56:59Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T18:57:53Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-08T18:58:28Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-01-08T18:58:35Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-08T19:00:18Z matryoshka` quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T19:00:41Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:01:39Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-08T19:02:08Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T19:02:28Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:02:34Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:03:27Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:09:41Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-08T19:10:03Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:11:19Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-08T19:12:26Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T19:12:46Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:21:20Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-08T19:21:38Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:25:12Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T19:25:36Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:27:27Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-08T19:27:45Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:29:06Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-08T19:29:27Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:30:57Z joast quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-08T19:31:38Z joast joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:32:19Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T19:32:41Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:35:59Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T19:36:18Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T19:39:06Z seepel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-08T19:39:46Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T20:10:01Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-08T20:29:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-08T20:30:59Z stzsch|2 quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-01-08T20:31:18Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-08T20:31:18Z stzsch joined #scheme 2021-01-08T21:04:06Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T21:05:45Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-08T21:05:51Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-08T21:06:31Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-08T21:07:57Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T21:08:01Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-08T21:08:16Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T21:08:33Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-08T21:10:57Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T21:11:16Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T21:14:27Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-08T21:15:14Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-08T21:15:35Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-08T21:18:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-08T21:19:00Z tryte_ quit (Quit: _) 2021-01-08T21:21:20Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-08T21:21:30Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-08T21:48:05Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T22:32:39Z manicennui joined #scheme 2021-01-08T22:49:28Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-08T22:59:33Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-08T23:02:20Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-08T23:02:45Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-08T23:07:11Z ex_nihilo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-08T23:11:49Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-08T23:33:29Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-08T23:51:33Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-08T23:58:08Z seepel quit (Quit: seepel) 2021-01-09T00:22:54Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-09T00:45:33Z raingloom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T00:47:37Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-09T01:06:41Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T01:12:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-09T01:15:36Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T01:16:00Z raoul quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-09T01:38:10Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-09T01:39:38Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-09T01:43:19Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-09T01:44:09Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T01:46:50Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T01:50:49Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-09T02:18:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T02:42:25Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T02:43:31Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-09T03:15:23Z frost-lab joined #scheme 2021-01-09T03:16:11Z raingloom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T03:42:34Z mzan quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-01-09T03:43:10Z mzan joined #scheme 2021-01-09T03:45:58Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T03:48:25Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-09T03:50:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-09T03:57:53Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T03:58:28Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-09T03:59:10Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-09T04:04:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-09T04:04:42Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-09T04:04:48Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T04:05:39Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T04:06:22Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-09T04:11:26Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T04:11:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T04:24:22Z sm2n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-09T04:42:24Z richbridger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-09T04:48:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T04:55:10Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-09T05:03:49Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T05:05:27Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-09T05:10:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T05:15:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T05:36:50Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-09T05:37:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T05:42:04Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-09T06:02:43Z xsperry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-09T06:04:59Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T06:13:09Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T06:15:00Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T06:21:22Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-09T06:27:26Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-09T06:39:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T06:40:05Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-09T06:53:42Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-09T06:53:45Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-09T06:54:37Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-09T06:55:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T06:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T07:01:07Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-09T07:01:13Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-09T07:01:39Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-09T07:08:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T07:17:40Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T07:23:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-09T07:24:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T07:34:58Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-09T07:39:52Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-09T07:40:29Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-09T07:40:31Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-09T07:40:34Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-09T08:05:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T08:09:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T08:16:01Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T08:21:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T08:47:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T08:48:25Z evdubs quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-09T08:50:19Z oni-on-ion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T08:50:20Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-01-09T08:52:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T09:06:26Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-09T09:08:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T09:26:50Z future-schemer92 joined #scheme 2021-01-09T09:26:57Z future-schemer92 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-09T09:32:48Z future-schemer92 joined #scheme 2021-01-09T09:33:12Z future-schemer92 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-09T09:39:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T09:44:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-09T09:48:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T09:52:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T09:58:46Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-09T10:02:23Z Anonymous__ joined #scheme 2021-01-09T10:04:53Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T10:26:19Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T11:00:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T11:19:20Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-09T11:22:59Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-09T11:25:27Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-09T11:29:43Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-09T11:30:03Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-09T11:41:31Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-09T11:44:37Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T12:18:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T12:41:56Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-09T12:51:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-09T13:00:43Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-09T13:01:39Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-09T13:03:54Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-09T13:36:34Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-09T13:39:38Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T13:40:08Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-09T13:46:43Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T13:48:23Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-09T14:02:50Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-09T14:03:08Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T14:08:40Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-09T14:17:07Z imode quit (Quit: Lovely night, isn't it? Fresh air, lovely people..) 2021-01-09T14:46:18Z dmiles joined #scheme 2021-01-09T14:46:36Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-09T14:47:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T14:49:21Z dmiles joined #scheme 2021-01-09T14:50:25Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-09T14:51:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T14:52:29Z dmiles joined #scheme 2021-01-09T14:56:18Z dmiles quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-09T15:02:02Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T15:04:25Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T15:11:10Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-09T15:15:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T15:15:37Z dmiles joined #scheme 2021-01-09T15:16:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T15:17:02Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T15:18:03Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-09T15:30:37Z dmiles quit 2021-01-09T15:39:09Z jackhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-09T15:43:09Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-09T15:46:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T15:47:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T15:50:07Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T15:50:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T15:52:36Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-09T15:55:59Z Anonymous__: https://paste.ofcode.org/jTLmSX3X9UcMu8FvBr94rB 2021-01-09T15:56:14Z Anonymous__: Can someone check if my definitions of let and let* are correctly? 2021-01-09T15:56:47Z Riastradh: LGTM, does it work? 2021-01-09T15:56:51Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-09T15:59:05Z Anonymous__: this simples example worked fine displays "20" 2021-01-09T15:59:29Z Anonymous__: But i very noob, Im just starting with Scheme reading The Scheme Programming Language 4th 2021-01-09T16:00:00Z dmiles joined #scheme 2021-01-09T16:00:42Z Anonymous__: I studied common lisp some time before, so that ellipsis(...) notation is a bit confuse to me 2021-01-09T16:02:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T16:02:37Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-09T16:08:08Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-09T16:15:37Z mdhughes_ joined #scheme 2021-01-09T16:19:59Z mdhughes quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-09T16:27:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T16:29:43Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-09T16:33:07Z mdhughes_ is now known as mdhughes 2021-01-09T16:33:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T16:43:03Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T16:47:03Z dionysius joined #scheme 2021-01-09T16:49:14Z dionysius quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-09T16:50:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-09T16:55:14Z belmarca95 joined #scheme 2021-01-09T17:03:45Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T17:11:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T17:12:24Z iv4nshm4k0v quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-09T17:20:37Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-09T17:30:23Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T17:54:43Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-09T18:09:17Z dmiles quit 2021-01-09T18:16:04Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-09T18:17:51Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-09T18:24:12Z civodul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-09T18:24:33Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-09T18:41:40Z dmiles joined #scheme 2021-01-09T18:42:25Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-01-09T18:49:55Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-09T19:08:41Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T19:16:29Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-09T19:20:53Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-09T19:26:36Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-09T19:33:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T19:38:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-09T20:03:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T20:09:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T20:10:23Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T20:10:24Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-09T20:10:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T20:10:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T20:11:24Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-09T20:14:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-09T20:15:15Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-09T20:15:24Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-09T20:21:32Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-09T20:41:08Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-09T20:44:48Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-09T20:50:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T20:56:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T21:10:49Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T21:23:02Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T21:25:32Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-09T21:34:24Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-09T21:47:10Z amirouche quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-09T21:50:19Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-09T21:51:06Z amirouche: we are missing 82 nicks in the channel to reach 300, at which point I release ze code. 2021-01-09T22:02:26Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T22:04:25Z Zipheir: amirouche: Presumably it's FOSS code; if so, shouldn't it already be available? 2021-01-09T22:05:39Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-09T22:06:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T22:07:25Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-09T22:15:31Z jcowan: Code can be FOSS and still unreleased, particulary under BSDish licenses, which presume access to the source rather than granting it 2021-01-09T22:30:15Z Zipheir: Sure. But in these days of free-ish hosting, I wonder if there's much point in private development of FOSS projects. 2021-01-09T22:30:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-09T22:32:31Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-09T22:34:28Z mangol: shyness and perfectionism are common reasons 2021-01-09T22:34:57Z ezekielwordswort joined #scheme 2021-01-09T22:35:02Z ezekielwordswort is now known as TheSchemer 2021-01-09T22:35:24Z TheSchemer: is there anyway i can set! a symbol 2021-01-09T22:35:29Z TheSchemer: for example 2021-01-09T22:35:35Z TheSchemer: (set! 'a 9) 2021-01-09T22:35:46Z Zipheir: What is that supposed to do? 2021-01-09T22:36:37Z TheSchemer: set the value of a to 9 2021-01-09T22:36:48Z TheSchemer: provided that a is already defined 2021-01-09T22:37:00Z Zipheir: The value of 'a is the symbol a. 2021-01-09T22:37:32Z wasamasa: I guess something like set vs setq in elisp 2021-01-09T22:38:09Z wasamasa: the answer is no, there is no portable way of doing that, short of writing your own scheme evaluator with such a function 2021-01-09T22:38:20Z Zipheir: If a isn't bound to anything, (set! a 9) is an error, in R7, at least. 2021-01-09T22:38:30Z Zipheir: But (set! 'a 9) is meaningless. 2021-01-09T22:38:45Z Zipheir: (As 'a can't be an lvalue.) 2021-01-09T22:38:55Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-09T22:39:58Z TheSchemer: i want a variable that references another variable, so when changed, the value that is changed is the value of the variable it references, not the variable itself 2021-01-09T22:40:56Z wasamasa: people implemented that idea using boxes 2021-01-09T22:41:01Z mangol: SRFI 111: Boxes and its successors 2021-01-09T22:41:10Z TheSchemer: oh 2021-01-09T22:41:12Z wasamasa: it doesn't require a symbol-oriented lisp for that 2021-01-09T22:41:50Z Zipheir: Yeah, boxes should help. 2021-01-09T22:42:14Z TheSchemer: Thanks. 2021-01-09T22:42:26Z Zipheir: Working with set! directly will show you the pain of trying to use mutable references in a call-by-value language. 2021-01-09T22:43:23Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-09T22:45:51Z mangol: TheSchemer: any reason you're not simply using a hash table with the symbols as keys? or just asking out of curiosity 2021-01-09T22:49:36Z TheSchemer: out of curiosity.Altough i might run into situations where i'll need this. 2021-01-09T22:50:05Z TheSchemer: is ikarus Scheme a recommendable implementation for r6rs= 2021-01-09T22:51:56Z mangol: ikarus is highly respected (it was made by a student of chez scheme's author) but i don't know whether it's easy to use 2021-01-09T22:53:28Z mangol: student is an understatement, he wrote and collaborated on many papers 2021-01-09T22:54:23Z mangol: best known one is An Incremental Approach to Compiler Construction 2021-01-09T23:02:38Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-09T23:04:43Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-09T23:13:01Z jackhill joined #scheme 2021-01-09T23:33:05Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-09T23:57:13Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T00:06:50Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-10T00:10:00Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T00:10:25Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-10T00:19:43Z TheSchemer quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-10T00:29:02Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-10T00:30:43Z amirouche: btw the feed of my blog is broken, I am changing my blog engine, I try to re-implement the feed tomorrow 2021-01-10T00:31:16Z amirouche: since the last search engine blog post they were only one post about a tool a reworked to generate a static website from notion.so 2021-01-10T00:31:29Z amirouche: https://hyper.dev/22db4369d7254513bb9e668004a920da.html 2021-01-10T00:31:45Z amirouche: (a small review of python code) 2021-01-10T00:33:22Z amirouche: bye! 2021-01-10T00:33:26Z amirouche ZzzZzzzz 2021-01-10T00:42:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T01:02:37Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T01:10:11Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T01:10:56Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-10T01:13:16Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T01:24:07Z epony quit (Quit: reconfigure) 2021-01-10T01:24:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T01:25:17Z epony joined #scheme 2021-01-10T02:34:03Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T02:38:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-10T03:22:34Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T03:22:56Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-10T03:30:43Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-10T03:42:49Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T03:47:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-10T03:51:14Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-10T03:58:01Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T03:58:20Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-10T04:16:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T04:20:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T04:23:26Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T04:34:06Z DKordic joined #scheme 2021-01-10T05:00:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T05:00:27Z JohnnyL joined #scheme 2021-01-10T05:05:32Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T05:12:09Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-10T05:14:23Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-10T05:23:45Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T05:28:02Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-10T05:32:34Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-10T05:36:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T05:58:37Z JohnnyL quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-10T06:19:25Z DateMasamune2000 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T06:27:24Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T06:30:28Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T06:32:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-10T06:41:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T06:46:54Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-10T06:48:49Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T06:57:09Z stzsch|2 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T07:00:00Z stzsch quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T07:01:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-10T07:06:00Z DateMasamune2000 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T07:13:12Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T07:18:19Z JohnnyL joined #scheme 2021-01-10T07:22:11Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T07:26:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T07:27:11Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T07:31:31Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T07:40:27Z retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-10T07:51:35Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-10T07:52:58Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-10T07:53:19Z shawnw quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-10T07:58:12Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-10T08:00:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T08:01:37Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T08:03:44Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-10T08:05:20Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T08:06:26Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-10T08:13:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T08:17:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T08:24:39Z DateMasamune2000 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T08:25:48Z greyeax joined #scheme 2021-01-10T08:27:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T08:34:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T08:38:20Z marusich quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-10T08:38:53Z marusich joined #scheme 2021-01-10T09:05:54Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T09:06:29Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T09:08:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T09:08:55Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-10T09:10:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T09:36:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T09:40:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T09:44:06Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-10T09:46:16Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T09:54:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T09:59:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T10:08:04Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T10:09:59Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-10T10:36:03Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T10:36:07Z xelxebar_ joined #scheme 2021-01-10T10:36:43Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T10:38:11Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T10:54:51Z sugarwren joined #scheme 2021-01-10T10:59:25Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T11:01:46Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-10T11:02:10Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T11:03:40Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T11:06:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T11:11:12Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-10T11:15:40Z imode quit (Quit: Sleep well when you get there.) 2021-01-10T11:22:12Z DateMasamune2000 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T11:29:10Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T11:34:45Z greyeax quit (Quit: greyeax) 2021-01-10T11:41:58Z cpape` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-01-10T11:43:15Z cpape joined #scheme 2021-01-10T11:55:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T11:57:51Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-10T12:02:25Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T12:03:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T12:08:26Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T12:28:42Z DateMasamune2000 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T12:37:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T12:42:19Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T12:55:51Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-10T12:58:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T13:11:37Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T13:34:16Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-10T13:54:48Z dozzie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T13:55:01Z dozzie joined #scheme 2021-01-10T13:59:43Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-10T14:05:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T14:22:16Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-10T14:32:01Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T14:35:02Z xlei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T14:37:28Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T14:43:25Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T14:43:48Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-10T14:56:02Z xlei joined #scheme 2021-01-10T15:02:37Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-10T15:11:37Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T15:13:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T15:16:37Z sugarwren quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-10T15:18:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T15:23:16Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-10T15:37:24Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-10T15:46:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T15:52:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T15:53:13Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-10T15:55:23Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T16:00:04Z pukkamustard[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-01-10T16:20:57Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T16:25:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T16:33:23Z sugarwren joined #scheme 2021-01-10T16:37:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T16:42:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T16:43:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T16:45:11Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-10T16:48:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-10T16:50:30Z elliott_ quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-01-10T16:50:47Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-10T16:52:22Z xelxebar_ quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-10T16:52:22Z cantstanya quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-10T16:52:22Z tryte quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-10T16:52:22Z madage quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-10T16:53:01Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-10T16:54:33Z elliott_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-10T16:54:51Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-10T16:58:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T17:02:22Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T17:04:52Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T17:07:22Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-10T17:09:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T17:14:53Z sugarwren quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T17:19:39Z JohnnyL quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-10T17:20:31Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T17:21:06Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-10T17:24:12Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-10T17:28:18Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-10T17:30:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T17:55:20Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-10T17:56:33Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-10T17:58:25Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-10T18:08:15Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-10T18:20:41Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T18:28:56Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-10T18:31:05Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-10T18:37:22Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-10T18:37:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T18:37:43Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-10T18:43:08Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-10T18:45:10Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-10T18:48:45Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-10T18:49:09Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-10T18:58:48Z sugarwren joined #scheme 2021-01-10T19:02:41Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T19:02:59Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-10T19:04:48Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-10T19:15:45Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-10T19:22:21Z sugarwren quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-10T19:24:28Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T19:29:44Z sugarwren joined #scheme 2021-01-10T19:37:48Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-10T19:39:23Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-10T19:47:11Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-10T19:55:56Z sugarwren quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-10T20:05:02Z gproto23 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T20:09:03Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T20:16:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T20:21:22Z gproto23 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-10T20:26:24Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T20:26:48Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-10T20:39:52Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-10T20:41:49Z seepel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T20:43:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-10T20:43:23Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-10T20:44:05Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-10T20:44:06Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-01-10T21:05:43Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-10T21:13:58Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T21:18:53Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-10T21:29:44Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-10T21:41:58Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T21:57:16Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-10T22:21:12Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-10T22:27:18Z mario-go` joined #scheme 2021-01-10T22:27:54Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-10T22:29:31Z mario-goulart quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T23:01:19Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T23:08:07Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-10T23:08:48Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-10T23:14:20Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T23:14:56Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-10T23:17:12Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-10T23:18:14Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-10T23:22:35Z urek joined #scheme 2021-01-10T23:23:38Z urek left #scheme 2021-01-10T23:24:14Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-10T23:33:22Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-10T23:33:36Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-10T23:43:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-10T23:56:42Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-10T23:57:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-10T23:57:50Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-11T00:01:19Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T00:06:53Z Anonymous__: Hello, I need a help to see why some definition of or syntax is wrong 2021-01-11T00:06:57Z Anonymous__: https://paste.ofcode.org/fX5FdxvfNvZUBFUPQKddkj 2021-01-11T00:07:33Z Anonymous__: the first and second definition comes from the book The Scheme Programming Language, fourth edition, the second definition is said to be incorrect by the author 2021-01-11T00:07:44Z Riastradh: Familiar with proper tail recursion? 2021-01-11T00:07:49Z Anonymous__: But I did not understand why its wrong 2021-01-11T00:08:25Z Anonymous__: I know the definition of tail recursion, the proper tail recursion is more restrict or both are the same? 2021-01-11T00:08:48Z Anonymous__: the last definition on paste is my own try on defining or 2021-01-11T00:09:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T00:09:30Z Riastradh: Let's suppose you wanted to write a procedure that tests whether every element of a list is even. 2021-01-11T00:09:48Z Riastradh: Here's one way you could do it: 2021-01-11T00:09:56Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T00:10:00Z Riastradh: maybe make it `any element', rather than `every element' 2021-01-11T00:10:27Z Riastradh: (define (any-even? L) (or (null? L) (even? (car L)) (any-even? (cdr L)))) 2021-01-11T00:10:43Z Riastradh: Is the recursive call to `any-even?' tail-recursive? 2021-01-11T00:12:56Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T00:14:21Z Anonymous__: IM Riastradh just thinking.. 2021-01-11T00:15:33Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T00:16:03Z Anonymous__: It will just be called with both null? and even? fails to be true, thus i think the answer is no 2021-01-11T00:16:06Z Anonymous__: I got confuse lol 2021-01-11T00:16:50Z Riastradh: Step 1: Expand the macros. 2021-01-11T00:16:56Z Riastradh: What does the procedure look like without `or'? 2021-01-11T00:20:08Z Anonymous__: something like (if (null? L) #t (if (even? (car L) #t (any-even? (cdr L)))) 2021-01-11T00:21:35Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-01-11T00:21:35Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-11T00:23:09Z Anonymous__: (if (null? L) #t 2021-01-11T00:23:10Z Anonymous__: (if (even? (car L)) #t 2021-01-11T00:23:10Z Anonymous__: (any-even? (cdr L)))) 2021-01-11T00:23:18Z Anonymous__: its wrong Riastradh ? 2021-01-11T00:24:21Z Riastradh: nope 2021-01-11T00:24:24Z Riastradh: Follow the syntax rules! 2021-01-11T00:24:40Z Riastradh: Which rule does (or (null? L) (even? (car L)) (any-even? (cdr L))) match? 2021-01-11T00:25:22Z Anonymous__: it match the second rule in the incorrect labeled example 2021-01-11T00:25:56Z Riastradh: Right. So what's e1 and what's e2 ...? 2021-01-11T00:26:29Z Anonymous__: e1 is (null? L) and e2 is (even? (car L)) 2021-01-11T00:26:46Z Riastradh: Well, `e2 ...' is `(even? (car L)) (any-even? (cdr L))', but yes. 2021-01-11T00:27:15Z Riastradh: Now the template is (let ((t e1)) (if t t (or e2 ...))). 2021-01-11T00:27:42Z Riastradh: So what does (or (null? L) (even? (car L)) (any-even? (cdr L))) expand to, in the first step of macro expansion, using this template? 2021-01-11T00:27:56Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-11T00:28:49Z Anonymous__: (let ((t (null? L))) (if t t (or (even? (car L)) (any-even? (cdr L))))) 2021-01-11T00:28:56Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-11T00:29:33Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-01-11T00:29:49Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T00:32:52Z Anonymous__: now e1 is (even? (car L)) and e2 is (any-even? (cdr L)) right? 2021-01-11T00:34:57Z Riastradh: Right. 2021-01-11T00:35:13Z Anonymous__: so the inner or will expand on (let ((t (even? (car L)))) (if t t (or (any-even? (cdr L))) 2021-01-11T00:35:29Z Riastradh: Exactly. And what about the next step? 2021-01-11T00:35:46Z Riastradh: What rule does (or (any-even? (cdr L))) match, and with what assignment of pattern variables? 2021-01-11T00:37:12Z Anonymous__: hmm, cant be the second, but the first expect an #f 2021-01-11T00:37:36Z Anonymous__: oh no 2021-01-11T00:37:38Z Anonymous__: sry 2021-01-11T00:37:43Z Anonymous__: it must be the second again 2021-01-11T00:37:53Z Anonymous__: I got confuse by ellipses 2021-01-11T00:39:15Z Anonymous__: then e1 is (any-even? (cdr L)) but i dont know what is assigned to e2 2021-01-11T00:40:24Z Anonymous__: I is "nothing" ? 2021-01-11T00:40:28Z Anonymous__: it* 2021-01-11T00:40:55Z Anonymous__: that will be the only way to reach the first rule at all 2021-01-11T00:43:14Z Anonymous__: e1 is "(any-even? (cdr L))" and e2 is "" correcŧ? 2021-01-11T00:44:30Z Anonymous__: I think in this step it will expand the or to (let ((t (any-even? (cdr L)))) (if t t (or))) 2021-01-11T00:45:37Z Anonymous__: Well! it make the code to have instructions after the call to any-even? 2021-01-11T00:46:27Z Anonymous__: because in this last step it will need to call any-even? to bound t and then later executed the body of let 2021-01-11T00:46:56Z Anonymous__: this turn it all in non proper tail recursive, correct? 2021-01-11T00:48:58Z Riastradh: `e2 ...' is empty, yes. 2021-01-11T00:49:18Z Riastradh: So yes, this is not tail-recursive, for exactly the reason you described. 2021-01-11T00:49:26Z Riastradh: What would happen if, instead, there had been a rule ((_ e) e)? 2021-01-11T00:50:40Z Anonymous__: instead of going into the same template we will fall in a template with e bounded and just return its value 2021-01-11T00:52:58Z Anonymous__: which in fact will be a return of the first call to any-even? 2021-01-11T00:53:10Z Anonymous__: the return* 2021-01-11T00:54:51Z Anonymous__: It well dont have a non tail call in this case 2021-01-11T01:00:35Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T01:01:13Z Anonymous__: I got it Riastradh 2021-01-11T01:01:32Z Anonymous__: Thanks for helping me 2021-01-11T01:05:10Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T01:09:03Z actuallybatman left #scheme 2021-01-11T01:17:26Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T01:25:10Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T01:30:07Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-11T01:31:39Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T01:32:07Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-11T01:41:28Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-11T01:43:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T01:43:59Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-11T01:45:59Z ZombieChicken quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-11T01:46:13Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-11T02:07:41Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-11T02:10:13Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-11T02:10:18Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-11T02:11:04Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-11T02:16:10Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T02:34:37Z DateMasamune2000 joined #scheme 2021-01-11T02:36:35Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-11T02:42:19Z dmiles quit 2021-01-11T02:46:25Z [d]_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T02:50:54Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-11T02:53:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T02:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T02:58:17Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T02:58:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T03:21:52Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T03:23:09Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-11T03:30:24Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-11T03:48:34Z raingloom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T03:56:03Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T03:56:27Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-11T04:03:43Z lambda-11235 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-11T04:04:16Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-11T04:17:00Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-11T04:17:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T04:24:19Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-11T04:24:32Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-11T04:25:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T04:41:03Z ZombieChicken quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T04:45:10Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T04:46:54Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T04:51:29Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T04:56:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T04:59:16Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-11T05:05:32Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-11T05:07:28Z remby quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-11T05:13:36Z retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-11T05:16:03Z retropikzel left #scheme 2021-01-11T05:27:55Z Anonymous__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T05:41:12Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-11T05:42:12Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T05:42:40Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T05:46:41Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-11T05:47:55Z ngz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T05:47:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T05:48:02Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T05:49:04Z remby quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-01-11T05:50:39Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-11T05:53:18Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-11T05:53:25Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T05:54:54Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T06:13:48Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T06:17:01Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T06:29:41Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T06:57:28Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T07:03:52Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T07:08:05Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T07:08:53Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T07:20:51Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T07:21:55Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T07:22:27Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-11T07:29:15Z mario-go` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2021-01-11T07:29:41Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2021-01-11T07:37:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T07:42:50Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-11T07:59:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T08:02:29Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T08:03:54Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-11T08:06:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T08:12:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T08:26:36Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-11T08:43:00Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-11T08:46:55Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-11T08:48:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T08:54:48Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-11T08:55:11Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T08:59:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T09:06:23Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:08:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T09:17:25Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-01-11T09:23:41Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:24:53Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:25:33Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-11T09:26:23Z klovett_ is now known as klovett 2021-01-11T09:28:38Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-11T09:28:54Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:30:02Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:30:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T09:31:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:31:49Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T09:35:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T09:40:57Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:44:14Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T09:50:12Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:52:29Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:54:34Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-11T09:55:00Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T09:55:50Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-11T10:07:29Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-11T10:27:22Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-11T10:37:38Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T10:39:23Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T10:45:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T10:50:53Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-11T11:15:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T11:30:33Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-11T11:31:12Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-11T11:33:16Z stzsch|2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T11:33:38Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-11T11:36:49Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T11:42:08Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-11T11:43:30Z stzsch|2 joined #scheme 2021-01-11T11:51:11Z stzsch|2 quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-01-11T12:16:37Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-11T12:22:16Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T12:22:56Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-11T12:36:58Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T12:48:01Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T12:53:10Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-11T13:15:38Z xelxebar_ joined #scheme 2021-01-11T13:16:23Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T13:18:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T13:23:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T13:46:15Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T13:51:21Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-11T14:13:20Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-11T14:24:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T14:29:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T14:32:08Z hyiltiz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T14:36:24Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T14:41:45Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-11T14:44:34Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T15:03:49Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-11T15:22:54Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-01-11T15:33:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T15:38:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T15:40:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T15:47:21Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T15:47:22Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-11T15:47:22Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T15:49:03Z hyiltiz quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-11T15:49:07Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T15:50:45Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T15:50:46Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-11T15:50:46Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T16:01:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-11T16:05:53Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-11T16:08:38Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T16:11:43Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-11T16:13:03Z hyiltiz quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-11T16:21:49Z peanutbutterandc joined #scheme 2021-01-11T16:29:02Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-11T16:36:10Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T16:36:11Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-11T16:36:11Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T16:59:05Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-01-11T17:00:22Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T17:00:25Z xelxebar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T17:00:49Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-11T17:15:48Z GreaseMonkey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T17:16:01Z greaser|q joined #scheme 2021-01-11T17:31:04Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-11T17:43:14Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-11T17:45:36Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-11T17:47:04Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T17:51:24Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-11T17:57:20Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-01-11T17:57:34Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T18:06:00Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-11T18:26:25Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T18:27:01Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T18:29:34Z peanutbutterandc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-11T18:39:54Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: hyiltiz) 2021-01-11T18:42:01Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T18:42:01Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-11T18:42:01Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-11T18:52:15Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T18:52:26Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-11T18:57:49Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T19:00:12Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-11T19:29:29Z ArneBab_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-11T19:30:46Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-11T19:41:40Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-11T19:45:46Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-11T19:55:10Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T19:55:44Z also_uplime quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-11T19:55:58Z also_uplime joined #scheme 2021-01-11T20:44:45Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-11T20:45:14Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-11T20:45:38Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-11T20:46:05Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-11T20:50:27Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-11T20:50:46Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-11T21:05:43Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-11T21:42:12Z manumanumanu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-11T21:43:44Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-01-11T22:20:44Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-11T22:28:14Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T22:45:37Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-11T23:00:39Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-11T23:09:24Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-11T23:09:43Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-11T23:11:37Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-11T23:12:32Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-11T23:16:03Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-11T23:22:12Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-11T23:39:52Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-12T00:12:13Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T00:13:23Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-12T00:15:17Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-12T00:32:31Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-12T00:39:34Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-12T00:46:30Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-12T01:29:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T01:56:17Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T01:56:37Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-12T02:07:18Z aos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T02:11:07Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T02:15:50Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-12T02:18:18Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-01-12T02:21:57Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T02:33:14Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-01-12T02:33:19Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T02:45:32Z todun joined #scheme 2021-01-12T02:48:41Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T02:52:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T02:53:44Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-12T02:55:31Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-12T02:56:08Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-12T03:33:29Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T03:33:48Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T03:42:09Z todun quit (Quit: todun) 2021-01-12T03:43:05Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T03:47:18Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T03:47:39Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T03:52:56Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T03:53:15Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T03:56:04Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-12T03:58:08Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-12T03:58:34Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T03:58:53Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T03:59:05Z matryoshka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T04:17:26Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T04:23:32Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T04:23:56Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T04:57:02Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-12T05:10:26Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T05:10:50Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T05:13:20Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T05:18:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T05:26:14Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T05:27:28Z epony joined #scheme 2021-01-12T05:33:04Z d_run quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-12T05:33:14Z d_run joined #scheme 2021-01-12T05:36:46Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T05:37:30Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-12T06:18:52Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-12T06:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T06:58:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-12T07:00:32Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T07:05:24Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-12T07:06:51Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T07:11:22Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-12T07:15:20Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T07:20:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T07:28:23Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T07:29:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T07:32:06Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T07:32:24Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T07:34:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T07:42:22Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-12T08:09:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T08:10:21Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-12T08:16:36Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-12T08:22:57Z pranavats joined #scheme 2021-01-12T08:31:35Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-12T08:44:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T08:50:29Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-12T08:50:48Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-12T09:05:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-12T09:11:10Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-12T09:22:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-12T09:40:48Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-12T09:43:59Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T09:48:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-12T10:06:03Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T10:11:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-12T10:44:50Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-12T10:46:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T10:47:20Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-12T10:51:00Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-12T11:06:29Z stephe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-12T11:06:59Z stephe joined #scheme 2021-01-12T11:08:59Z imode quit (Quit: Someone's takin' the train to sleepytime junction.. Someone's so very tired he can barely function..) 2021-01-12T11:19:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T11:24:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-12T11:41:49Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T11:42:37Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-12T11:46:07Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-12T11:47:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-12T11:55:45Z [d]_ joined #scheme 2021-01-12T12:05:57Z [d]_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T12:06:09Z [d]_ joined #scheme 2021-01-12T12:22:37Z ggole joined #scheme 2021-01-12T12:28:29Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T12:28:53Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T12:31:46Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-12T12:32:04Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T12:33:39Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T12:36:07Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-12T12:57:48Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-12T13:05:10Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T13:06:53Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-12T13:09:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-12T13:17:00Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-12T13:18:09Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T13:24:44Z titanbiscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-12T13:31:36Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T13:31:57Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T13:44:10Z mangol: scheme.rs domain name expires on Feb 10 and its owner is willing to pass it on to another schemer. let me know if you want it. 2021-01-12T13:49:24Z wasamasa: mangol: what for you 2021-01-12T13:49:27Z wasamasa: *though 2021-01-12T13:53:32Z cmatei joined #scheme 2021-01-12T13:59:32Z mangol: wasamasa: that's not my department :) i'm just passing on the information 2021-01-12T13:59:46Z wasamasa: I mean, what's the point 2021-01-12T14:00:09Z mangol: again, it's not my domain 2021-01-12T14:01:37Z wasamasa: that doesn't prevent you from pondering how little sense it makes to buy a domain hack 2021-01-12T14:03:09Z mangol: lol. it does prevent me from pondering it because i try to pick my battles 2021-01-12T14:04:45Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-12T14:24:37Z cmatei quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-12T14:47:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T14:48:02Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-12T14:51:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-12T14:57:45Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T14:58:02Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T15:12:14Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-12T15:18:01Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-12T15:23:41Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-12T15:31:18Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T15:35:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-12T15:50:36Z ManDay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-12T16:00:23Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-12T16:11:50Z choas_ joined #scheme 2021-01-12T16:12:58Z ecraven: ;) 2021-01-12T16:12:58Z choas_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-12T16:14:44Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-12T16:16:46Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-12T16:17:06Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-12T16:25:22Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-12T16:31:46Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-12T16:35:44Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-12T16:41:09Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-12T17:08:28Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-12T17:15:05Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-12T17:36:31Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-12T17:59:09Z jobol quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-12T18:02:32Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-12T18:07:00Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-12T18:51:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-12T18:52:49Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-12T18:55:57Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-12T18:56:13Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T18:57:53Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-12T18:58:01Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-01-12T19:02:43Z lambda-11235 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-12T19:03:12Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-12T19:04:31Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-12T19:20:55Z jcowan: I see that call.cc is also available 2021-01-12T19:29:39Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-12T19:29:58Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-12T19:54:02Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T20:05:23Z mangol: request a quote and tell them to call you back at any time that is convenient to them 2021-01-12T20:18:09Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-12T20:28:06Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T20:28:43Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-12T20:30:59Z seepel1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T20:32:05Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-12T20:36:04Z [d]_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T20:57:49Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T21:00:01Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-12T21:03:14Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-12T21:07:09Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-12T21:12:19Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-12T21:30:26Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-12T21:36:55Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-12T22:09:20Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-12T22:13:58Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T22:15:33Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-12T22:23:28Z Zipheir quit (Quit: Eadem mutata resurgo) 2021-01-12T22:32:40Z also_uplime quit (Quit: quit) 2021-01-12T22:37:08Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-12T22:37:34Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-12T22:37:44Z Steeve quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-12T22:54:32Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-01-12T23:02:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-12T23:11:42Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T23:13:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-12T23:13:54Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-12T23:14:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-12T23:19:25Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T23:19:39Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-12T23:22:19Z jobol quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-12T23:26:01Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T23:40:14Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-12T23:41:43Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T00:00:27Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-13T00:04:27Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T00:07:07Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T00:18:40Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-13T00:19:00Z daviid is now known as Guest96134 2021-01-13T00:19:41Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-13T00:21:53Z Guest96134 is now known as daviid 2021-01-13T00:28:08Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-13T00:31:56Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T00:32:35Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T00:32:44Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-01-13T00:43:22Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-13T00:47:21Z matryoshka` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T00:47:30Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-13T00:53:33Z raoul joined #scheme 2021-01-13T00:58:19Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-13T01:17:37Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-13T01:18:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T01:38:32Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-13T01:40:26Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-13T01:45:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T01:49:44Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-13T01:50:28Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T01:55:25Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-01-13T02:01:29Z raoul quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-13T02:05:40Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-13T02:29:03Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T02:29:41Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-13T02:32:19Z seepel1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T02:33:58Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-13T03:12:34Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-13T03:12:43Z NorthStar` joined #scheme 2021-01-13T03:12:48Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T03:14:02Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-13T03:16:09Z NorthStar` quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!) 2021-01-13T03:20:32Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T03:21:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T03:26:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T03:36:02Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T03:36:07Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T03:39:08Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T03:41:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T03:41:07Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-13T03:41:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T03:46:17Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-13T03:55:31Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-13T03:57:46Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T04:06:47Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-13T04:13:59Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-13T04:15:14Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-13T04:18:41Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T04:23:28Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T04:38:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-13T05:18:28Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T05:23:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T05:27:19Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T05:27:49Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T05:29:04Z titanbiscuit joined #scheme 2021-01-13T05:33:14Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-13T05:47:37Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T05:49:47Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T05:53:24Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T06:01:22Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-13T06:03:48Z shynoob joined #scheme 2021-01-13T06:26:54Z pounce quit (Quit: bye bye!) 2021-01-13T06:30:16Z pounce joined #scheme 2021-01-13T06:34:14Z shynoob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T06:34:27Z shynoob joined #scheme 2021-01-13T06:50:40Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T06:56:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T06:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T06:58:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:01:50Z pounce quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T07:06:16Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:06:48Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T07:07:39Z pounce joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:08:48Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:11:29Z zugzwang_ joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:13:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T07:13:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:13:50Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T07:14:37Z shynoob quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T07:15:13Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T07:21:00Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:21:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T07:21:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:23:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:23:54Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:28:23Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T07:28:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T07:29:16Z midre joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:34:17Z zugzwang_ left #scheme 2021-01-13T07:36:42Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T07:37:20Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:40:05Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T07:40:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:48:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T07:48:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:54:39Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-13T07:55:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T07:55:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-13T08:04:11Z marusich quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T08:15:24Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T08:17:27Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-13T08:21:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T08:45:23Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-01-13T08:45:27Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-13T08:47:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T08:48:50Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T08:50:45Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-13T08:53:38Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-13T08:54:13Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T08:54:14Z imode quit (Quit: Actual honest-to-goodness real sleep I swear to god for real this time.) 2021-01-13T09:02:13Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-13T09:02:32Z daviid is now known as Guest36452 2021-01-13T09:09:05Z r0kc4t joined #scheme 2021-01-13T09:12:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T09:13:12Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-13T09:16:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T09:24:22Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T09:29:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T09:33:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T09:38:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T09:45:59Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-13T10:20:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T10:24:39Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-13T10:25:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-13T10:38:32Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T10:47:46Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T10:52:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T11:25:38Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T11:29:55Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T11:30:12Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T11:34:47Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-13T11:37:21Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-13T11:59:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T12:01:52Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T12:04:48Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T12:08:16Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-13T12:18:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T12:18:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-13T12:39:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T12:48:19Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T12:48:39Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-13T13:07:23Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T13:09:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T13:21:35Z skapata quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-13T13:26:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T13:27:55Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-13T13:31:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T13:32:22Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T13:32:56Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-13T13:32:56Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-13T13:32:56Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-13T13:37:42Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T13:37:58Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-13T13:54:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T13:59:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T14:14:01Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T14:14:34Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-13T14:21:06Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-13T14:37:26Z mdhughes_ joined #scheme 2021-01-13T14:38:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T14:39:02Z mdhughes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T14:40:26Z mdhughes_ is now known as mdhughes 2021-01-13T14:42:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T14:49:24Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-13T14:51:21Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-13T14:54:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T14:54:38Z elflng quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T14:55:16Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-13T14:55:27Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-13T14:57:00Z mdhughes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T14:59:25Z mdhughes joined #scheme 2021-01-13T15:01:55Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-13T15:17:32Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-13T15:19:23Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-13T15:25:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T15:32:01Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-01-13T15:54:31Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T15:58:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T16:00:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T16:06:08Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-13T16:09:22Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-13T16:10:42Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-13T16:23:18Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T16:23:38Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-13T16:37:41Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-13T16:41:52Z xelxebar_ joined #scheme 2021-01-13T16:42:31Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T16:42:43Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T16:42:48Z wigust joined #scheme 2021-01-13T16:57:25Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-13T16:57:47Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-13T16:58:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T16:59:53Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-13T17:04:21Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T17:10:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T17:12:07Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T17:16:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T17:19:34Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-13T17:26:39Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T17:55:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T17:57:02Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T17:58:07Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-13T18:00:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T18:28:52Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T18:31:01Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-13T18:33:28Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T18:35:00Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-13T18:40:25Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-13T18:45:40Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-13T18:46:49Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T18:47:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T18:48:23Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-13T18:50:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T18:53:44Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-13T18:53:54Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-13T18:54:15Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-13T18:54:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T18:55:13Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-13T19:04:28Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T19:08:10Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:11:01Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T19:13:37Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:15:10Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T19:20:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T19:25:47Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:30:27Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:31:52Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T19:33:56Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:33:59Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-13T19:34:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:34:44Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-13T19:35:27Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:37:32Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T19:38:42Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:39:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T19:42:30Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:44:27Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:48:59Z bitwize joined #scheme 2021-01-13T19:49:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-13T20:05:44Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-13T20:08:09Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T20:10:42Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-13T20:11:32Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T20:15:58Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T20:30:24Z choas quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-13T20:31:13Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-13T20:36:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T20:40:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T20:43:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T20:48:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T21:02:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-13T21:05:45Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T21:08:01Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-13T21:15:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T21:31:23Z ZombieChicken quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T21:33:03Z Guest364` joined #scheme 2021-01-13T21:33:14Z Guest36452 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T21:33:17Z duncanm: this SRFI is kinda exciting, https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-201/srfi-201.html 2021-01-13T21:40:55Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T21:41:16Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-13T21:46:05Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T21:46:12Z wasamasa: why are these announced on reddit *after* they're finalized 2021-01-13T21:47:07Z Zipheir: Oy veh, SRFI 201. 2021-01-13T21:47:25Z Zipheir: Usually they get posted to reddit when they're announced and again when they're finalized. 2021-01-13T21:47:52Z Zipheir: But then, I rarely look at reddit, so I don't know if that's always the case. 2021-01-13T21:50:06Z wasamasa: I'd hope so, haven't been watching it too long 2021-01-13T21:50:11Z wasamasa: but so far just finalizations 2021-01-13T21:58:14Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-13T22:00:02Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-13T22:13:05Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-13T22:13:10Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-13T22:14:22Z amirouche: they are announced on reddit befre finalization, but error is human. 2021-01-13T22:14:51Z amirouche: they are also boosted by lisp bot on fediverse 2021-01-13T22:15:34Z amirouche: @reddit_lisp@mstdn.jp 2021-01-13T22:15:46Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-13T22:16:04Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-13T22:16:43Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T22:18:09Z amirouche: There have been over 4000 visits to r/scheme @.@ 2021-01-13T22:22:05Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-13T22:24:12Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-13T22:24:23Z Zipheir: It's nice to see commentator names on the subreddit that aren't familiar from IRC. It seems as though it's attracted a small community at this point. 2021-01-13T22:24:43Z xelxebar_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T22:24:58Z amirouche: +1 2021-01-13T22:30:59Z Zipheir: ↑ 2021-01-13T22:33:17Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T22:33:47Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T22:34:58Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T22:35:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-13T22:36:13Z faLUKE quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-13T22:41:14Z mangol: re: scheme news, https://planet.scheme.org/ is now up and running 2021-01-13T22:42:48Z mangol: esp. recommend Arthur's "REPL as a Service 2021-01-13T22:42:53Z mangol: " post 2021-01-13T22:43:09Z mangol: about debugging a web server running in MIT Scheme 2021-01-13T22:43:48Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-13T22:44:43Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-13T22:45:31Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-13T22:56:48Z Zipheir: Cool! 2021-01-13T22:59:58Z faLUKE quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-13T23:01:32Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-13T23:03:59Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-13T23:06:39Z amirouche: MIT seems to have the most advanced REPL 2021-01-13T23:07:17Z mangol: possibly. especially the debugger 2021-01-13T23:08:28Z mangol: a lot more people will be picking it up again when it gets R7RS library support 2021-01-13T23:08:30Z amirouche: re srfi 201: I read the abstract, I don't feel like reading the rest, sorry. 2021-01-13T23:08:50Z amirouche: mangol: picking up what? 2021-01-13T23:08:54Z mangol: MIT Scheme 2021-01-13T23:09:10Z mangol: it doesn't have any standard library system currently 2021-01-13T23:09:23Z amirouche: if it does... one of the maintainer always complain about SRFI 2021-01-13T23:09:34Z amirouche: or maybe it is r7rs 2021-01-13T23:09:36Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-13T23:09:42Z amirouche: or R7RS-large 2021-01-13T23:10:00Z amirouche: dunno 2021-01-13T23:10:01Z mangol: every scheme maintainer complains about their pet topic :) 2021-01-13T23:10:10Z amirouche: cffi! 2021-01-13T23:10:27Z amirouche: but I am not a scheme maintainer booooh 2021-01-13T23:10:33Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-13T23:10:54Z mangol: but you've written SRFIs so you are still entitled to complain :D 2021-01-13T23:11:20Z amirouche: I know only the user side of cffi. 2021-01-13T23:15:18Z Zipheir: Conversely, every co-implementer has some missing feature that the mplain (sic) about. 2021-01-13T23:19:12Z mangol: i have this pet theory that lisp/scheme people don't complain more than other people, we're just frustrated because our inspiration has been taken from us 2021-01-13T23:19:24Z mangol: and that frustration has to go somewhere 2021-01-13T23:20:05Z mangol: if we had a clear goal for our languages we wouldn't be frustrated 2021-01-13T23:20:24Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-13T23:21:26Z Zipheir: Clear goal or clear goals? 2021-01-13T23:21:49Z mangol: the fewer goals, the more inspiring 2021-01-13T23:22:28Z mangol: ideally we'd have one towering long-term goal into which everyone's near-term goals fit as subgoals 2021-01-13T23:22:34Z Zipheir: I mean, do you think that what's missing are Scheme-wide goals? 2021-01-13T23:22:40Z ni291187 joined #scheme 2021-01-13T23:22:42Z mangol: yeah 2021-01-13T23:22:48Z mangol: and lisp-wide more generally 2021-01-13T23:22:50Z ni291187: yeah yeah! 2021-01-13T23:23:06Z mangol: lisp used to be the future of programming. now nobody quite knows what it is 2021-01-13T23:23:20Z ni291187: happens a lot 2021-01-13T23:23:32Z ni291187: that’s life 2021-01-13T23:25:04Z Zipheir: Of course, Scheme implementations have widely differing goals, to the extent that we're probably one of the most theoretically-diverse language communities. 2021-01-13T23:26:34Z mangol: true 2021-01-13T23:26:41Z Zipheir: Lisp is often described as a "hybrid" language, and I wonder if that hybrid aspect has led to an unwillingness to move in any one particularl language. 2021-01-13T23:26:56Z Zipheir: Oops, particular direction, even. 2021-01-13T23:27:44Z ni291187 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-13T23:29:10Z mangol: ultimately direction comes from people, not the language 2021-01-13T23:29:22Z mangol: "when there's a will, there's a way" 2021-01-13T23:29:59Z mangol: we have quite a lot of energy but no will toward any singular purpose 2021-01-13T23:31:05Z mangol: if there's a goal to apply the language to some really hard problems, the character of the language will adapt by itself, and scheme is especially easy to adapt 2021-01-13T23:32:54Z Zipheir: What areas are worth investigating for "hard problems"? 2021-01-13T23:34:47Z mangol: every aspect of computing will be upgraded eventually 2021-01-13T23:34:54Z amirouche: search engines! peer-to-peer self healing microservices architecture! emoji!... oops 2021-01-13T23:35:03Z Zipheir: It seems like many people come up with big, Quixotic projects to tackle with Scheme, but I've yet to see a project that transcends different Schemes (usually, they're restricted to one or two Schemers) 2021-01-13T23:35:17Z Zipheir: Speak of the devil. :) 2021-01-13T23:35:44Z mangol: if people aren't jumping on board, just have to up the excitement until they do 2021-01-13T23:36:25Z mangol: the psychologica condition around lisp is we just kind of stopped believing in excitement [sic] at some point. probably around the AI winter 2021-01-13T23:36:39Z mangol: there's still this cultural DNA that excitement is a lie 2021-01-13T23:36:51Z mangol: can be felt every day 2021-01-13T23:37:24Z amirouche: Zipheir: the evil? 2021-01-13T23:38:01Z mangol: many communities believe in excitement, even to the point of naivete. it pays even to go overboard when there's a lot of work to do 2021-01-13T23:38:02Z amirouche: There is excitement in scheme! erkin made a logo \o/ 2021-01-13T23:38:07Z Zipheir: amirouche: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/speak_of_the_devil 2021-01-13T23:38:16Z mangol: amirouche: can you link the logo? 2021-01-13T23:38:44Z faLUKE quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-13T23:38:49Z mangol: there definitely is more action around both CL and scheme than a few years ago. that is a good thing 2021-01-13T23:39:43Z mangol: everything we do is good 2021-01-13T23:40:14Z mangol: but we're still copying by default. copying past Lisp, and copying what non-Lisp languages are presently doing 2021-01-13T23:40:44Z mangol: lisp used to excel at exploring things that haven't been done on a computer. we should get back to that 2021-01-13T23:41:12Z mangol: peer-to-peer and self-healing would be good things :) 2021-01-13T23:41:49Z mangol: biology is peer-to-peer and self-healing. i'm not sure making long-term bets against biology is a smart move 2021-01-13T23:42:20Z amirouche: mangol: https://cdn.mastodon.technology/accounts/avatars/000/226/262/original/2401d8eb8060c9ae.png 2021-01-13T23:42:22Z mangol: computers don't need to be literally made of organic matter, but those ways of solving systems problems 2021-01-13T23:42:34Z amirouche: mangol: but erkin has the full version, let me look 2021-01-13T23:42:57Z amirouche: mangol: https://erkin.party/scheme/ 2021-01-13T23:43:28Z Zipheir: Nice. 2021-01-13T23:44:05Z amirouche: My goal is to try to test my search with multiple schemes, but so far only Chez Scheme and Python (because social pressure) 2021-01-13T23:44:17Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-13T23:44:18Z mangol: yeah, nice work! 2021-01-13T23:44:46Z amirouche: I think a big project like a search engine, over gambit, chez, and possibly tornado (or whatever the good name is) 2021-01-13T23:45:19Z amirouche: would a great feat of strengh of the scheme community 2021-01-13T23:45:51Z mangol: if we ask 10 schemers what big project to tackle, everyone will probably give a different answer :) 2021-01-13T23:46:26Z mangol: several people have noted that it's hard to find collaborators for projects (outside Scheme implementations and SRFIs, and sometimes even those) 2021-01-13T23:46:42Z amirouche: agreed 2021-01-13T23:46:50Z amirouche: no I do not agree with everything 2021-01-13T23:47:04Z amirouche: that is not true: big project to tackle, everyone will probably give a different answer 2021-01-13T23:47:15Z amirouche: most will answer a todoapp 2021-01-13T23:48:07Z amirouche: I am not sure what bigger project they can be but a search engine (i am biaised, but open to change my mind) 2021-01-13T23:49:07Z mangol: i still want the user interface that feels like a scifi movie. computers need to be inspiring. 2021-01-13T23:49:24Z amirouche: many people do not have time, many people want it in their favorite scheme, many people do not care about doing floss work... etc.. 2021-01-13T23:49:34Z mangol: it's ok :D 2021-01-13T23:50:08Z Zipheir: I do think there is much to do in the area of computer interfaces. But I could care less about graphics. Better shells are what interest me. 2021-01-13T23:50:23Z amirouche: there is a lot of ground grunt work to do to bring all scheme to python basic (http client, server, tls, database) 2021-01-13T23:50:51Z amirouche: http client and server are in pre-srfi 2021-01-13T23:50:54Z mangol: we'll reach goals or we won't. it's not that serious. we are quite disorganized, but organization is not something that one can just conjure up from nothing 2021-01-13T23:51:08Z mangol: yes, there is! 2021-01-13T23:51:10Z amirouche: imho srfi-167 is good 2021-01-13T23:51:12Z amirouche: tls is missing. 2021-01-13T23:51:23Z mangol: yes, there's a tls pre-srfi 2021-01-13T23:51:29Z amirouche: ah there is? 2021-01-13T23:51:45Z mangol: https://github.com/pre-srfi/tls-client 2021-01-13T23:52:08Z mangol: i worry we are too diligent about doing the grunt work. we are in some sense overqualified for it. 2021-01-13T23:52:31Z mangol: and that means we can't do it as efficiently as we'd do some hugely ambitious project 2021-01-13T23:52:39Z amirouche: well, tls-client try to do too much, why not focus on libtls? 2021-01-13T23:52:50Z amirouche: mangol: +! 2021-01-13T23:52:59Z mangol: tls-client does almost nothing, except set up a pipe with some settings 2021-01-13T23:53:00Z Zipheir: If Scheme ever does become a batteries-included language, it will be up against a thousand other batteries-included languages, many of which have more contributors. Fundamental language design is our strength. 2021-01-13T23:53:09Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-13T23:53:22Z Zipheir: libtls is a good substrate. 2021-01-13T23:53:31Z amirouche: but not will have the speed of Chez, Gambit and cyclone 2021-01-13T23:53:37Z amirouche: or the ease of use of mit 2021-01-13T23:53:41Z mangol: Zipheir: exactly. that's why we need to start getting out of the rut where we look at the present and look around what other people are doing 2021-01-13T23:54:03Z amirouche: (mit is also fast) 2021-01-13T23:54:22Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-13T23:54:46Z Zipheir: There's nothing wrong at looking at what other languages are doing. Being stuck in an old-fashioned Lisp bubble is as bad as neophilia. 2021-01-13T23:55:03Z mangol: lisp's one strength that can never be taken away from us, is the timescale. we fundamentally work on much longer timescales than other communities 2021-01-13T23:55:49Z mangol: there is something wrong with everything :) most of the time that's best ignored, but there are times when it pays to play devil's advocate 2021-01-13T23:56:25Z Zipheir: There are areas for improvement: a better approach to continuations than call/cc and something more sophisticated than dynamic typing both come to mind. 2021-01-13T23:57:24Z amirouche: Zipheir: +2 2021-01-13T23:57:25Z faLUKE quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-13T23:57:25Z Zipheir: (Racket's done work on both problems.) 2021-01-13T23:58:47Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-13T23:59:23Z Zipheir: mangol: I also think there's too much complaining. Building stuff is more fun. 2021-01-13T23:59:30Z amirouche: +1 again 2021-01-13T23:59:50Z amirouche: rubic88: what do you think of Zipheir 2021-01-14T00:00:05Z amirouche: rudybot: : what do you think of Zipheir 2021-01-14T00:00:10Z amirouche: rubic88: sorry! 2021-01-14T00:00:14Z rudybot: amirouche: And adding to what Zipheir said. Most people don't realise that preventing the commercialization of FLOSS is against the very definition (eventhough some people think the exact opposite). If a license has "you may only do X if Y", it is automatically dropped by both the FSF and OSI. The FSF and OSI do follow strict rules regarding the requirements, which some people would consider free-speech extremism. 2021-01-14T00:00:31Z Riastradh: Zipheir: you're absolutely right, we've got to just DO something and stop sitting here and talking. So, let's have a COMPLETELY NEW MOTION to consider debate on what to do... 2021-01-14T00:00:46Z amirouche: x) 2021-01-14T00:01:09Z amirouche show a devil tail 2021-01-14T00:01:14Z Zipheir: Hear hear! Long live the Scheme Liberation Front. 2021-01-14T00:02:15Z amirouche: what do you think about that searc engine that can run on multiple scheme but HONESTLY 2021-01-14T00:02:31Z mangol: nah, this is open source so we can slack informally on IRC instead of slacking formally in meetings :) 2021-01-14T00:03:02Z mangol: and pontificate on IRC instead of pontificating in mission statements 2021-01-14T00:03:38Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T00:03:44Z amirouche: here is a big logo https://erkin.party/images/scheme_logo.png 2021-01-14T00:03:49Z faLUKE quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T00:04:05Z amirouche: we got the logo, we got the schemes, let's do a search engine 2021-01-14T00:04:11Z amirouche try to motives everybody 2021-01-14T00:04:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T00:04:54Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-14T00:05:57Z mangol: amirouche: search engines are good; running on multiple schemes is good 2021-01-14T00:05:59Z Zipheir: amirouche: A good step toward that would be a TODO map so that people can pick small pieces to work on. 2021-01-14T00:06:19Z amirouche: Zipheir: I will work on that 2021-01-14T00:06:24Z mangol: am i the only black sheep who doesn't believe in doing things piecemeal? 2021-01-14T00:06:50Z mangol: as in todo's and such. possibly 2021-01-14T00:06:58Z Zipheir: "The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones." 2021-01-14T00:07:11Z amirouche: Continue to discuss I will backlog tomorrow 2021-01-14T00:07:15Z amirouche: sorry to let you down. 2021-01-14T00:07:17Z mangol: good night! 2021-01-14T00:07:25Z mangol: i don't think you let anyone down :) 2021-01-14T00:08:02Z Zipheir: 'night amirouche. 2021-01-14T00:09:49Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T00:10:40Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-14T00:15:00Z mangol: Zipheir: you said you don't care about graphics but do care about shells. do you care about structural editing? 2021-01-14T00:15:20Z mangol: the basics of that can be done in a text terminal as well 2021-01-14T00:18:00Z Zipheir: I'm not very interested in things like syntax highlighting, tagging, etc., but I think an interactive REPL-like editor is massively useful for a lot of things. Emacs is only so-so at providing that, actually. 2021-01-14T00:18:38Z mangol: cool. i want to have a GUI structural editor, but it should have a terminal-based counterpart to validate the design 2021-01-14T00:18:57Z aeth: Zipheir: syntax highlighting is a good typo-check, at least around comments and strings 2021-01-14T00:19:08Z aeth: everything else is extra imo 2021-01-14T00:20:04Z Zipheir: Many editor projects have been derailed by the endless task of providing full syntax-highlighting for every language. :) 2021-01-14T00:20:34Z aeth: core devs shouldn't do syntax highlighting 2021-01-14T00:21:29Z mangol: Zipheir: do you mean REPL-like as in source code doesn't have to be presented in the same order as in a source file? 2021-01-14T00:21:30Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-14T00:21:49Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-14T00:23:17Z Zipheir: mangol: I mean simply a tool for interactively editing and piping code to an interpreter coprocess. 2021-01-14T00:23:39Z Zipheir: It's critical for things like using a proof assistant. 2021-01-14T00:23:45Z mangol: as in, you edit the definition of `foo` in the source, then send the new definition to a Scheme 2021-01-14T00:23:53Z mangol: for evaluation 2021-01-14T00:24:04Z Zipheir: And it makes working at the REPL much less painful than using readline. 2021-01-14T00:24:19Z Zipheir: Right. 2021-01-14T00:24:22Z mangol: there are several things around that general topic we couuld do 2021-01-14T00:24:37Z mangol: and should at some point 2021-01-14T00:25:48Z mangol: i have plenty of energy but i find it incredibly hard to focus piecemeal on tasks 2021-01-14T00:26:21Z Oxyd: Just write an entire new editor in a single evening, then. 2021-01-14T00:26:30Z faLUKE quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T00:26:48Z mangol: if we can figure out something inspiring around this general topic i'll try to do a good job 2021-01-14T00:27:02Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-14T00:27:16Z mangol: Oxyd: that's not a bad idea 2021-01-14T00:27:30Z mangol: assuming it doesn't need to work very well :p 2021-01-14T00:28:07Z Oxyd: Just write a program that always crashes on startup and then you can say it's the best editor ever with every feature you'll ever want, and it only has a single bug: It crashes on startup. 2021-01-14T00:28:53Z mangol: and it has self-modifying code so when it crashes, it deletes all the other features in the executable so you can't find them 2021-01-14T00:29:15Z mangol: if you look at the crash dump 2021-01-14T00:30:31Z Zipheir: Sounds like what Steam does, for worse reasons. 2021-01-14T00:33:23Z mangol: we're regressing into the default lisp sarcasm 2021-01-14T00:34:30Z Zipheir: Writing an editor backend which can interface with one or more frontends (à la Sam) still seems like a good way to avoid complexity, and perhaps to get something up and running quickly. 2021-01-14T00:35:20Z mangol: agreed 2021-01-14T00:35:40Z mangol: do you like structural editing of s-expressions as an alternative to text editing? 2021-01-14T00:36:05Z Zipheir: I'm not sure. How does that work? 2021-01-14T00:37:41Z mangol: the S-expressions are presented to the user in a fundamentally tokenized form. e.g. the parentheses surrounding a list are not editable characters 2021-01-14T00:38:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T00:39:43Z Zipheir: Interesting. I'd like to see an example editing session. It sounds a bit like paredit on steroids. 2021-01-14T00:39:44Z faLUKE quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-14T00:40:00Z mangol: yeah, paredit approximates that approach in emacs 2021-01-14T00:41:09Z Oxyd: I personally hate anything that gets between my keyboard and what gets put in a file. Even auto-closing of parens, braces and strings. 2021-01-14T00:41:40Z mangol: 95% of the time programmers hate everything new 2021-01-14T00:41:49Z Oxyd: That's hardly new. 2021-01-14T00:42:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T00:43:08Z mangol: are any projects started on this channel? 2021-01-14T00:44:03Z Zipheir: It's probably hard to say. There's definitely been a lot of discussion of ongoing projects (mainly SRFIs). 2021-01-14T00:44:32Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-14T00:53:59Z paolo joined #scheme 2021-01-14T00:54:18Z faLUKE quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T01:00:23Z mangol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shLQw_ivtfw -- here's one structural editor, for lisp incidentally 2021-01-14T01:01:13Z mangol: looks like clojure but i'm not 100% on that 2021-01-14T01:08:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T01:09:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T01:12:36Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-14T01:12:55Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-14T01:14:54Z Zipheir: Thanks. Interesting, it seems to be doing some type-checking as well. 2021-01-14T01:15:54Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-14T01:16:14Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-14T01:19:56Z Zipheir: Odd, since I didn't think that Clojure had homogeneous lists. 2021-01-14T01:29:57Z Riastradh: paredit started in this channel 2021-01-14T01:30:13Z foof: ( 2021-01-14T01:30:50Z Riastradh: *ding* Unmatched bracket or quote 2021-01-14T01:45:44Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-14T01:46:49Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-14T01:54:49Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-14T01:56:29Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T02:04:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T02:34:58Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T02:37:14Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-14T02:40:25Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-14T03:12:29Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-14T03:14:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T03:14:53Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T03:15:13Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-14T03:22:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T03:24:16Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T03:24:49Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T03:31:07Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-14T03:31:36Z aeth: rudybot: paredit 2021-01-14T03:31:36Z rudybot: aeth: See for example: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/ and compare editing a sexp with it, vs. doing it in emacs (even with paredit). 2021-01-14T03:53:17Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-14T03:53:34Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-14T04:02:52Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-14T04:18:09Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T04:23:16Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T04:23:59Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-14T04:25:14Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-14T04:27:23Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-14T04:28:46Z manicennui left #scheme 2021-01-14T04:54:34Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T04:55:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T05:00:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T05:00:54Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-14T05:01:00Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-14T05:01:07Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-14T05:04:35Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-14T05:07:28Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-14T05:10:36Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-14T05:14:56Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T05:15:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T05:16:48Z mdhughes quit 2021-01-14T05:17:31Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2021-01-14T05:19:11Z mdhughes joined #scheme 2021-01-14T05:20:03Z ZombieChicken quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T05:21:02Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-14T05:22:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T05:24:32Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-14T05:40:08Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T05:48:42Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-14T05:57:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-14T05:58:29Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-14T06:45:36Z some02 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T06:46:53Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T06:54:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-14T06:56:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T07:01:48Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T07:17:40Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-14T07:21:40Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-14T07:24:13Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-14T07:29:30Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-14T07:33:31Z todun joined #scheme 2021-01-14T07:47:18Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T07:53:07Z laxask joined #scheme 2021-01-14T07:54:19Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-14T08:02:45Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-14T08:08:11Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-14T08:17:03Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T08:17:31Z todun quit (Quit: todun) 2021-01-14T08:19:01Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-14T08:27:35Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T08:27:57Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-14T08:50:28Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T08:55:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T08:57:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T08:59:29Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T09:02:10Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T09:07:02Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-14T09:08:11Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T09:09:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T09:12:12Z laxask quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T09:12:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-14T09:16:54Z wasamasa: amirouche: why the hell is peer-to-peer a pre-srfi 2021-01-14T09:17:24Z wasamasa: amirouche: that doesn't make any sense considering the prerequisites and that aside, a p2p project is a project with many idiosyncratic decisions, not a standardizable thing 2021-01-14T09:21:13Z laxask joined #scheme 2021-01-14T09:41:40Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-14T09:55:12Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2021-01-14T09:56:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T09:56:49Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T09:57:53Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-14T10:02:06Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-14T10:02:15Z mirrorbird quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-14T10:07:06Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T10:35:03Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T10:37:46Z paolo is now known as faLUKE 2021-01-14T10:39:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T10:51:07Z shawnw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-14T10:51:24Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-14T10:58:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:00:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:03:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T11:04:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-14T11:06:54Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:09:04Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:11:22Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T11:23:07Z amerigo joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:24:53Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T11:26:12Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:26:33Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:32:26Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:33:28Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:36:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T11:37:14Z siiky joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:37:53Z siiky: Hello everyone! Is it OK for "normal people" to reply to SRFI emails? I just read the latest SRFI-214 email and found a couple of things that may be improved in the implementation reference; is it OK for me to reply to that email? 2021-01-14T11:42:57Z weinholt: siiky, yes 2021-01-14T11:46:03Z siiky: weinholt: cool, thanks! 2021-01-14T11:50:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T11:55:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T12:13:21Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T12:20:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T12:25:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-14T12:27:37Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-14T12:32:40Z amirouche: those that do, rule. 2021-01-14T12:32:53Z DKordic is now known as L35M153r4bl35 2021-01-14T12:33:18Z amirouche: wasamasa: yes, but the goal is not cover all cases, but have an interoperable network 2021-01-14T12:34:04Z wasamasa: that is a long-term ongoing project, not a standard 2021-01-14T12:34:12Z wasamasa: it exceeds what a SRFI can do 2021-01-14T12:34:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T12:39:02Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T12:45:24Z nij joined #scheme 2021-01-14T12:46:18Z nij: Is there any scheme-equivalent of CL's hyperspec? 2021-01-14T12:47:08Z nij: I'm using the implementation Guile with geiser. But while I inspect stuff like 'lambda, 'set!, it does not tell me where to find the source.. 2021-01-14T12:55:47Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-14T12:56:58Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-14T12:57:37Z wasamasa: no 2021-01-14T12:58:14Z nij: How do you look up the source code then @@? 2021-01-14T12:58:26Z wasamasa: do you really want to look up the source code of the scheme primitive? 2021-01-14T12:58:38Z paolo joined #scheme 2021-01-14T12:58:42Z nij: sometimes @@ yes. At least to know if it's a function or a macro. 2021-01-14T12:58:54Z wasamasa: that's something the documentation would tell you 2021-01-14T12:59:01Z faLUKE quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T12:59:07Z klovett_ is now known as klovett 2021-01-14T12:59:28Z wasamasa: there are several problems with that 2021-01-14T12:59:39Z wasamasa: like them being defined somewhere else than the project you're currently working on 2021-01-14T12:59:45Z wasamasa: or not having to be defined in scheme 2021-01-14T13:00:05Z wasamasa: or being defined in some oddball way that's unlikely to be found with the usual strategies 2021-01-14T13:02:58Z wasamasa: I've considered writing a source lookup equivalent to `chicken-doc`, but it wasn't worth the effort 2021-01-14T13:03:07Z wasamasa: it's much faster to just grep the appropriate directory 2021-01-14T13:03:48Z wasamasa: that way I find definitions written in C, internal definitions, compile-time constructs and whatnot 2021-01-14T13:05:24Z nij: Oh so the problem is the same. 2021-01-14T13:05:27Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-01-14T13:05:31Z nij: I got Guile from arch's repo. 2021-01-14T13:05:48Z nij: It's precompiled I guess. I should just compile it myself. 2021-01-14T13:05:51Z wasamasa: so grab a copy of guile's source code 2021-01-14T13:07:32Z nij: And compile it myself? Or I can just point its path to the DOC searcher? 2021-01-14T13:10:57Z wasamasa: I'll let you figure that out yourself 2021-01-14T13:11:18Z wasamasa: my best guess for the location of define and lambda is the hacked up psyntax.scm stolen from chez 2021-01-14T13:12:01Z wasamasa: I've found lambda there, but not define itself 2021-01-14T13:12:07Z nij: sure, thanks ! 2021-01-14T13:12:10Z wasamasa: probably some black magic going on 2021-01-14T13:14:28Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-14T13:15:40Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-14T13:17:54Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-14T13:18:58Z wasamasa: actually, no, it lives inside expand.c 2021-01-14T13:21:27Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-14T13:21:33Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T13:26:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-14T13:28:56Z paolo is now known as faLUKE 2021-01-14T13:43:08Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T13:45:54Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T13:45:59Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T13:46:56Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-14T13:54:11Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-14T13:54:26Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T13:58:52Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T14:08:35Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-14T14:10:49Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-14T14:11:17Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-14T14:21:39Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-14T14:22:23Z nij: wasamasa: Finally had guile compiled (by running `make`). Before installing it, I tried to remove guile obtained from arch's repo. 2021-01-14T14:22:40Z nij: However, it's a dependency of `make`.. I'm not sure if I should do that. :( 2021-01-14T14:31:23Z wasamasa: what benefit does compiling from source give you? 2021-01-14T14:31:36Z wasamasa: other than generating some extra files you're unlikely to search :P 2021-01-14T14:31:58Z wasamasa: oh and ensuring that whatever guile version you run corresponds to the sources 2021-01-14T14:32:47Z nij: wasamasa: Ah! You mean I only have to get the source, and teach Geiser where it is? 2021-01-14T14:32:50Z nij: Stupid me @@ 2021-01-14T14:36:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T14:39:00Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-14T14:46:02Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-14T14:46:55Z snits joined #scheme 2021-01-14T14:48:56Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T14:50:44Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T14:50:58Z nij joined #scheme 2021-01-14T15:04:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T15:08:55Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-14T15:10:38Z faLUKE quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-01-14T15:18:07Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T15:18:43Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-14T15:19:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T15:19:16Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-14T15:20:49Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-14T15:20:51Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-14T15:27:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T15:28:01Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T15:34:53Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-14T15:36:00Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T15:37:12Z bitwize: nij: just install the new guile in a local or alternate path 2021-01-14T15:37:30Z bitwize: and either run it with a fully qualified path or make an alias or symlink 2021-01-14T15:38:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T15:45:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T15:52:19Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-14T15:55:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T16:00:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-14T16:03:22Z nij: bitwize: Thank :D 2021-01-14T16:03:38Z nij: Hmm.. I'm checking this repo: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/guix , and I tried to load some file. 2021-01-14T16:03:57Z nij: Many of them seem to complain about that guix/config.scm is missing. 2021-01-14T16:04:09Z nij: And indeed it is! There's only guix/config.scm.in that's presented. 2021-01-14T16:04:40Z nij: Should I create guix/config.scm out from guix/config.scm.in? 2021-01-14T16:06:32Z bitwize: Ever use autotools before, nij? 2021-01-14T16:07:47Z nij: No.. 2021-01-14T16:08:18Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-14T16:09:35Z bitwize: I recommend you learn about them because, for better or for worse, a lot of GNU stuff relies on them, including Guile and Guix. 2021-01-14T16:09:56Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T16:10:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-14T16:11:18Z nij: bitwize: Thanks for the advice! 2021-01-14T16:11:27Z nij: I'm looking into their intro. 2021-01-14T16:11:45Z nij: But could you describe what problem I'm having now, at a high level? 2021-01-14T16:12:01Z nij: Do I have to tune config.scm.in into config.scm? 2021-01-14T16:16:29Z bitwize: Yeah 2021-01-14T16:16:42Z bitwize: Autotools does that as a part of setting up the package for build though 2021-01-14T16:24:47Z iv4nshm4k0v joined #scheme 2021-01-14T16:31:54Z Guest364` is now known as daviid 2021-01-14T16:33:59Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-01-14T16:34:04Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-14T16:36:28Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-14T16:41:55Z phoe6 joined #scheme 2021-01-14T16:46:50Z civodul: nij: if you're using Guile, i recommend taking a look at Hall, which sets up the build system machinery for you: https://gitlab.com/a-sassmannshausen/guile-hall 2021-01-14T16:53:48Z nij: civodul: It's at Alpha.. I'm not sure a noob like me should use it. 2021-01-14T16:54:07Z nij: I am just trying to navigate the guix source code more easily.. 2021-01-14T16:54:20Z nij: Even this step is hard enough =( has been hours 2021-01-14T16:56:12Z civodul: ah! 2021-01-14T16:56:34Z civodul: (Hall is really aimed at Guilers not familiar with Autotools and such, it works well) 2021-01-14T17:09:19Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-14T17:13:05Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-14T17:18:38Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T17:30:33Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-14T17:44:27Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-14T17:51:40Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-14T17:57:22Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-14T18:07:03Z jobol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T18:08:38Z nij left #scheme 2021-01-14T18:14:04Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-14T18:20:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T18:22:11Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-14T18:22:37Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-14T18:23:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T18:23:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T18:25:40Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-14T18:28:48Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-14T18:38:19Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-14T18:46:27Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-14T19:15:33Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-14T19:19:12Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T19:19:51Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-14T19:21:45Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-14T19:23:13Z matryoshka` joined #scheme 2021-01-14T19:23:21Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-14T19:30:47Z xelxebar quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-14T19:31:51Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-14T19:33:07Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-14T19:33:11Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-14T19:42:37Z bitwize: Just from a cursory glance at the readmes, Hall looks like it's a build and packaging tool for packages written on top of Guile. Does it really handle the building of Guile (and Guix) itself? 2021-01-14T19:42:57Z bitwize: If so, that really is cool. 2021-01-14T19:43:43Z bitwize: Anything that prevents beginners from having to deal with Autocruft is awesome. 2021-01-14T19:45:25Z Riastradh: what if they have to deal with cmake instead 2021-01-14T19:47:13Z pinoaffe: bitwize: hall is a guile-specific module manager written in guile (similar to what pip is to python), it has more or less fallen out of use because guix is way more widely applicable 2021-01-14T19:47:52Z iv4nshm4k0v: Personally, I'd rather deal with Autotools (which I do understand the how and why of) rather than Cmake (where I understand neither.) 2021-01-14T19:59:48Z nij joined #scheme 2021-01-14T20:00:22Z nij: Hello! I know the basics of Lisp and Scheme. How to get started with a scheme project, especially an existing one? 2021-01-14T20:01:36Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T20:02:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T20:02:38Z aeth: nij: Generally, you should use GNU Emacs with something like Paredit to manage your parentheses (several alternatives exist). Run the REPL inside of Emacs using Geiser (or even SLIME -- that's designed for CL, but some Schemes support it). There are alternatives, especially with vim, but they're not quite as good. 2021-01-14T20:03:18Z nij: So far so good. I have all of them. 2021-01-14T20:04:13Z dieggsy: i prefer M-x run-scheme for its simplicity, though if you're looking for more than just a REPL geiser is the way to go 2021-01-14T20:04:19Z nij: However, I cannot get Geiser to compile a certain file.. https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/guix/build-system/gnu.scm 2021-01-14T20:04:33Z aeth: Which Scheme are you using for that? 2021-01-14T20:04:37Z nij: Guile. 2021-01-14T20:04:57Z nij: I have spent my whole day trying to figure this out. And have asked questions.. 2021-01-14T20:05:09Z aeth: The first thing I'd do is double check to make sure I'm using Guile because Geiser supports multiple Schemes, perhaps even simultaneously. 2021-01-14T20:05:11Z dieggsy: nij: what exactly are you trying to figure out? like, what's the overall goal 2021-01-14T20:05:13Z nij: One person on #guix did not have my problem.. so I think something must be wrong. 2021-01-14T20:05:32Z nij: dieggsy: Here is my message to #guix: 2021-01-14T20:05:39Z nij: For those who can help, here's again what I'm facing in short @@.. Thank 2021-01-14T20:05:39Z nij: you! --- I hope to compile guix/build-system/gnu.scm into geiser, 2021-01-14T20:05:39Z nij: expect geiser to compile all dependent modules, and expect geiser to 2021-01-14T20:05:39Z nij: tell me where the source of 'build-system is located in the whole repo. 2021-01-14T20:05:42Z nij: (source: 2021-01-14T20:05:46Z nij: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/guix/build-system/gnu.scm) 2021-01-14T20:05:47Z Zipheir: Maybe worry about editor support after you've got something to work on... 2021-01-14T20:05:48Z nij: OH no =_= 2021-01-14T20:05:50Z pinoaffe: nij: assuming it's in your loadpath, you should probably just run (use-modules (guix build-system gnu)) 2021-01-14T20:06:15Z nij: aeth: Yes, I'm using guile. 2021-01-14T20:06:35Z dieggsy: nij: sorry for the noise, but out of curiosity what is @@ ? 2021-01-14T20:06:52Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-14T20:06:57Z nij: @@ = googly eyes = I'm a bit confused or daunted 2021-01-14T20:07:13Z nij: I should try to avoid this later on.. you're not the first one that asked :/ 2021-01-14T20:07:35Z dieggsy: nij: also, i'm not sure what you mean by expecting geiser to compile things - you'd compile using guile. geiser is just a tool to present a REPL and completion inside emacs 2021-01-14T20:07:43Z nij: pinoaffe: Does that let Geiser compile guix/build-system/gnu.scm? 2021-01-14T20:08:22Z pinoaffe: nij: when working with guile, you probably won't need to ever consciously think about compiling anything 2021-01-14T20:08:25Z nij: dieggsy: There's an emacs command called 'geiser-compile-current-buffer. 2021-01-14T20:08:48Z nij: pinoaffe: But I need to load the source code into the REPL, in some way, right? 2021-01-14T20:09:24Z Zipheir: (load ...) 2021-01-14T20:09:28Z dieggsy: nij: okay. what exactly is the error that it's giving you? but again - that's still a geiser function that's likely internally using whatever compiler/scheme program you use. geiser isn't itself a compiler 2021-01-14T20:09:31Z pinoaffe: nij: if you want to interact with the functionality provided by a module such as https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/guix/build-system/gnu.scm, you can just load the module 2021-01-14T20:09:46Z pinoaffe: the conventional way to do that in guile is to type (use-modules (guix build-system gnu)) into the repl 2021-01-14T20:11:02Z pinoaffe: this will make the exported by the module accessible in the scope of the repl, it allows you to interact with them 2021-01-14T20:11:09Z dieggsy: Alternatively to load, you could geiser-eval-buffer the file (and then use-modules or whatever) 2021-01-14T20:12:47Z nij: Here's what I get from using 'use-modules: 2021-01-14T20:13:16Z nij: https://bpa.st/7YDA 2021-01-14T20:13:37Z nij: Wait.. misposted 2021-01-14T20:13:40Z nij: Again.. sorry 2021-01-14T20:14:50Z nij: Here is the right one: https://bpa.st/6GJQ 2021-01-14T20:15:58Z nij: (The kill ring of emacs is really acting weird.. @@) 2021-01-14T20:16:53Z nij: https://bpa.st/MOQA ... this should be right 2021-01-14T20:18:17Z nij: So the main complaint is that ";;; no code for module (guix config)" 2021-01-14T20:18:52Z nij: And indeed there's no guix/config.scm in the repo... instead, there's only guix/config.scm.in 2021-01-14T20:18:56Z nij: as in ~ https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/guix 2021-01-14T20:19:20Z jcowan: mangol: No one knows the future. Lisp is the future of programming. Therefore, no one knows Lisp. 2021-01-14T20:20:30Z civodul: nij: this is probably more for #guix, but guix/config.scm is generated once you're run ./configure 2021-01-14T20:20:58Z nij: civodul: Thanks for confirming it... 2021-01-14T20:21:13Z nij: I thought I need to have that generate! But someone else told me that's not the problem. 2021-01-14T20:21:28Z nij: To run ./configure, it requires guile-git... which I dunno where to get. 2021-01-14T20:21:40Z nij: I do have guile installed. 2021-01-14T20:22:30Z civodul: nij: if you run Guix, you can get all the dependencies by running "guix environment guix" 2021-01-14T20:22:43Z civodul: on Debian and derivatives, you can run "apt install guile-git" etc. 2021-01-14T20:23:54Z nij: I'm on neither :D I should get guix working then! 2021-01-14T20:24:05Z nij: Thank you.. so much! I have to come back and try again tomorrow. 2021-01-14T20:25:42Z Zipheir: It is possible to write some Scheme without installing a new OS. 2021-01-14T20:25:56Z Zipheir: Er, package manager thingy. 2021-01-14T20:26:20Z nij: Zipheir: are you replying me? 2021-01-14T20:26:40Z Zipheir: To the above discussion in general, I suppose. 2021-01-14T20:26:40Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-14T20:28:33Z Zipheir: The original question, "How do I get going with a Scheme/Lisp?", was apparently misread as "How do I get going with Emacs/Geiser/Paredit/.../Guix?". 2021-01-14T20:32:47Z dieggsy: Zipheir: agreed. at bare minimum you just need editor of choice and scheme of choice 2021-01-14T20:33:03Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T20:34:15Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-14T20:36:12Z nij: Agreed. But things get more complicated while working with the projects that have existed... 2021-01-14T20:38:46Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-14T20:38:59Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T20:39:08Z pinoaffe: Zipheir: for context: nij has been asking about those topics in several related channels in the last couple of days, that probably plays into why people assumed they wanted to look into the intersection/interoperability of those projects 2021-01-14T20:39:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-14T20:39:25Z Zipheir: Ah, ok. 2021-01-14T20:40:40Z pinoaffe: but yes, for good measure: the easiest way to get into scheme is to use an editor your familiar with, pick a scheme, get a repl set up somewhere, and start writing small scripts 2021-01-14T20:42:23Z pinoaffe: if you can't decide what to write, there are a couple of books/introductions to scheme that offer exercises, i can personally recommend the little schemer (and related books) or SICP but I'm sure some of the people in here would recommend something else 2021-01-14T20:42:31Z pinoaffe: nij:^^ 2021-01-14T20:44:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T20:48:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T20:51:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T20:55:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T20:56:50Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-14T21:03:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-14T21:17:33Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T21:27:47Z mangol: jcowan: we must do something. this is something. therefore, we must do this. 2021-01-14T21:28:50Z mangol: seriously though, we do know the future: peer-to-peer, self-healing, 3D, etc. the hard part is predicting what will happen when. 2021-01-14T21:29:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T21:31:23Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T21:31:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T21:33:24Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-14T21:37:25Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-14T22:00:08Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T22:06:02Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-14T22:06:57Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-14T22:07:29Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-14T22:30:42Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-14T22:34:45Z mirrorbird_ joined #scheme 2021-01-14T22:37:12Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-14T22:45:45Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-14T22:46:36Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-14T22:49:57Z snits joined #scheme 2021-01-14T23:14:50Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T23:16:13Z raingloom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-14T23:31:25Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-14T23:45:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-14T23:52:56Z seepel1: Does anyone have general guidelines for when to use do vs a named let to iterate? I often find that I'll start with one and later realize the other would be more convenient so I'm wondering if there is a rule of thumb that could help me pick right the first time. 2021-01-14T23:57:56Z Zipheir: seepel1: `do' seems to be rarely used except in cases which really fit the pattern (e.g. multiple indices). Otherwise, named-let predominates. But it's a question of taste. 2021-01-14T23:58:53Z Zipheir: Critically, both do and named-let are just tail-loops, and both can be replaced by a letrec-bound lambda expression. 2021-01-14T23:59:35Z seepel1: Oh, I hadn't considered that 2021-01-14T23:59:41Z Zipheir: Some Schemers heartily recommend against *ever* using do. Alternatives include loop macros like foof-loop or higher-order functions. 2021-01-15T00:03:27Z sm2n_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:27Z wigust quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:27Z r0kc4t quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:27Z dozzie quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:27Z belmarca95 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:27Z dan64 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:27Z lritter quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z daviid quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z pounce quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z manumanumanu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z hive-mind quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z mario-goulart quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z sdu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z lloda quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z phoe6 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z midre quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z evdubs quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z drot quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z bandali quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z gf3 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z CORPORAL_groovy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z balkamos quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z Balooga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z bchar quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:28Z jcowan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:29Z taw10 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:29Z siraben quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:29Z bsima quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T00:03:48Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:04:58Z pounce joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:21Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:35Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:46Z phoe6 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z midre joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z drot joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z bandali joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z gf3 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z CORPORAL_groovy joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z balkamos joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z Balooga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z bchar joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z jcowan joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:47Z taw10 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:48Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:05:48Z bsima joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z wigust joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z r0kc4t joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z mario-goulart joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z dozzie joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z belmarca95 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z gabot joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z lloda joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:37Z dan64 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:06:47Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-15T00:07:10Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:07:10Z nmeum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T00:07:18Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:07:20Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:07:26Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:07:30Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:07:30Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:07:38Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:08:05Z nmeum joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:08:18Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-15T00:09:15Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:09:15Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:09:38Z Balooga quit (Ping timeout: 274 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:09:54Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:10:22Z Balooga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:15:14Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:25:57Z Riastradh: seepel1: I usually use do only for very simple loops like (do () () ...) or (do ((i 0 (+ i 1))) ((>= i n)) ...), sometimes slightly more complicated loops like (do ((i 0 (+ i 1)) (L L (cdr L))) ((not (pair? L))) ...). 2021-01-15T00:28:32Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:38:36Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:44:23Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:46:42Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:51:36Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:52:11Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-15T00:52:16Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-15T00:54:32Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T00:54:44Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-15T00:55:12Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-15T00:59:19Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:05:59Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:05:59Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:05:59Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:05:59Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:05:59Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:05:59Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:05:59Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:06:00Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:13:53Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-15T01:29:08Z seepel1: Riastradh: thanks for the feedback 2021-01-15T01:31:10Z gwatt: seepel1: I'll use do if the "update" step is simple. If there are several conditions I need to account for putting that in a (do ...) is unreadable 2021-01-15T01:32:21Z seepel1: gwatt: That makes sense, and I think that aligns with my experience as well. I've been having trouble putting it into words though. That's helpful. 2021-01-15T01:43:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:47:28Z joast joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:48:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T01:52:45Z todun joined #scheme 2021-01-15T01:53:08Z todun left #scheme 2021-01-15T01:58:58Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T01:59:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T02:01:28Z dieggsy: srfi-164's 'implementation' section says " This overview should be enough to implement the specification, but studying the Kawa implementation adds useful detail. " 2021-01-15T02:01:58Z dieggsy: but then proceeds to describe what seems to me like an extremely java-centric implementation, which makes sense, as that's the ref implementation 2021-01-15T02:02:22Z dieggsy: still, it's not exactly a general implementation description as it relies heavily on OOP 2021-01-15T02:04:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T02:07:51Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-15T02:16:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T02:20:26Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T02:23:32Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T02:46:36Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T02:52:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T02:54:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T02:55:55Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T02:56:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T02:58:04Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-15T02:59:13Z Zipheir: That's odd. I don't see why the requirement for a sample implementation was waived in that case. It's not something completely non-portable. 2021-01-15T03:00:33Z Zipheir: (And here we are trying to field all the issues with the nearly-portable SRFI 208 implemention, while some SRFIs just skipped the sample implementation altogether.) 2021-01-15T03:12:22Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T03:13:17Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-15T03:27:50Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T03:32:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T03:33:32Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-15T03:41:36Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T03:46:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T03:58:24Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T04:08:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T04:10:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T04:15:10Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T04:30:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T04:34:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T04:38:57Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-15T04:46:05Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T04:52:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T04:53:07Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T04:53:59Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-15T04:54:22Z mirrorbird_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-15T04:56:30Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T04:56:53Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-15T05:05:12Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T05:09:10Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-15T05:10:34Z jcowan: Zipheir: A sample implementation isn't necessary a portable one, though that's preferable. And we are trying to field the issues now because MNW. 2021-01-15T05:12:57Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-15T05:15:33Z lockywolf: Would anybody like to test srfi-216 once more? 2021-01-15T05:27:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T05:31:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T05:33:01Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T05:34:15Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T05:34:44Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T05:37:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T05:40:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T05:45:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T06:05:07Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-15T06:05:56Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T06:12:11Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-15T06:12:11Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T06:14:01Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T06:15:10Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T06:16:28Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T06:33:05Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T06:33:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T06:34:29Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-15T06:38:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T06:41:52Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T06:43:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T06:44:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T06:49:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T07:05:50Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-15T07:18:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T07:26:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T07:40:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T07:43:31Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-15T07:43:48Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-15T07:46:36Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-15T07:46:53Z jobol_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T07:48:03Z jobol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T07:48:21Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-15T07:48:58Z jobol_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-15T07:48:59Z jobol quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-15T07:49:11Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-15T07:49:53Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T07:54:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T07:57:10Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-15T08:01:02Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-15T08:08:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T08:09:44Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-15T08:13:07Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T08:17:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T08:29:51Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-15T08:35:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T08:39:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T08:51:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T08:58:39Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-15T09:06:00Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-15T09:06:51Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T09:08:24Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-15T09:09:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T09:18:38Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-15T09:26:50Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T09:40:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T09:44:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T09:57:23Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-15T10:00:29Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T10:37:14Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T10:58:44Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-15T11:00:12Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T11:00:12Z madage quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2021-01-15T11:00:12Z xelxebar quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2021-01-15T11:00:12Z tryte quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2021-01-15T11:01:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T11:03:34Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-15T11:03:45Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-15T11:06:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T11:08:39Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-15T11:11:14Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T11:25:41Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-15T11:29:03Z jeko joined #scheme 2021-01-15T11:34:02Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T11:38:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T12:35:32Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T12:39:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T12:44:28Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-15T12:56:13Z miyuki1534 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T13:02:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T13:07:01Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T13:10:18Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T13:18:10Z elliott_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T13:18:45Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T13:29:52Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T13:30:11Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-15T13:34:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T13:34:27Z jeko quit (Quit: jeko) 2021-01-15T13:46:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T13:48:32Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-15T13:52:01Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-15T13:53:54Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T13:57:01Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:06:36Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T14:09:05Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:14:29Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-15T14:14:47Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:28:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T14:28:53Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:31:07Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:40:14Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T14:41:24Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:48:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:52:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:52:44Z miyuki15` joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:53:02Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-15T14:54:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:54:45Z miyuki15` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T14:55:52Z miyuki1534 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T14:56:13Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T14:56:36Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-15T14:58:45Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-15T15:01:21Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-15T15:27:55Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-15T15:29:17Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T15:32:41Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-15T15:35:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T15:40:04Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-15T15:42:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T15:46:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-15T15:47:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T16:01:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T16:01:46Z phoe6 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-01-15T16:02:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T16:05:26Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T16:09:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T16:13:39Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-15T16:14:33Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-15T16:15:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-15T16:29:44Z skapata quit (Quit: bezonas mi iom da dormo) 2021-01-15T16:41:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T16:41:57Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-15T16:46:52Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T16:47:28Z snits joined #scheme 2021-01-15T16:50:36Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-15T17:12:04Z Zipheir: jcowan: Yeah, I'm aware. I was just commenting on the strange lack of any sample implementation for SRFI 164. 2021-01-15T17:13:57Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T17:16:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T17:17:33Z pewpew joined #scheme 2021-01-15T17:32:23Z pewpew quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-15T17:34:21Z jcowan: Yes, that is a messy case: there could have been a portable implementation, but nobody has been bothered to make one. It would be easy to make one on top of SRFI 179 2021-01-15T17:43:42Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-15T17:50:44Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T17:51:01Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-15T17:51:58Z dieggsy: jcowan: that gives me ideas and direction, thanks for that comment heh 2021-01-15T17:53:09Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T17:54:10Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-15T17:54:15Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-15T18:02:51Z jcowan: dieggsy: If you make one, please tell Arthur at so it can be put into the contrib directory of the SRFI-179 repo 2021-01-15T18:03:59Z dieggsy: jcowan: my first step is understanding srfi-179 (and possibly porting it to chicken), but i may look into it after that 2021-01-15T18:07:37Z jcowan: It's complex, but should be easy to port: change the define-macro forms to use explicit renaming, fix up define-structure, and chicken already has keywords, so that's good. 2021-01-15T18:08:44Z jcowan: It has a great deal of optimizations for arrays of less than four dimensions, although it will handle any number of dimensions correctly. 2021-01-15T18:14:29Z dieggsy: jcowan: right! that's sort of what i've been working on in the past 10 mins. we also have a define-macro in an egg, but it's probably safer to just change it manually. define-structure seems almost the same as define-record. i'm not sure of the actual use for macro-absent-obj seems it could just be removed and check for #f instead? 2021-01-15T18:15:29Z dieggsy: jcowan: something i'm interested in with an array library is blas integration - do you know if this would be possible with some combination of srfi-4 and srfi-179 ? 2021-01-15T18:16:49Z dieggsy: i mean, i know with chicken i can pass srfi-4 vectors to blas functions rather easily, my question is more about the integration of srfi-4 (or other arbitrary 'backend' data types) into 179 i guess 2021-01-15T18:17:02Z dieggsy: but i've yet to play around with it so my questions may be premature 2021-01-15T18:17:10Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T18:18:48Z jcowan: 179 has a concept of "storage classes", which are used to store the content. They can be vectors, srfi 4 vectors, or anything else that can be made to look like a vector. 2021-01-15T18:19:26Z jcowan: also you can have arrays that are backed by a procedure to compute the value of a cell. 2021-01-15T18:20:50Z jcowan: `this is used internally so that multiple affine transformations on an array are no less effficient than just one. 2021-01-15T18:20:52Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-15T18:21:03Z jcowan: so you can translate + rotate without paying any extra cost. 2021-01-15T18:22:21Z jcowan: A significant limitation is that zero-dimensional arrays aren't supported and neither are arrays where an upper bound isn't greater than the lower bound. But these cases don't come up much. 2021-01-15T18:22:46Z snits joined #scheme 2021-01-15T18:31:17Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-15T18:35:32Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-15T18:37:37Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-15T18:46:42Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T18:47:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T18:52:26Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-15T18:56:35Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-15T18:57:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T19:07:25Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-15T19:07:38Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T19:09:01Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-15T19:16:14Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-15T19:18:00Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T19:28:30Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-15T19:33:41Z Vultyre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T19:35:20Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-15T19:38:37Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T19:43:43Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-15T19:49:18Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-15T19:50:03Z dieggsy: jcowan: what would be the reason to prefer explicit renaming here over implicit ? 2021-01-15T19:50:36Z jcowan: Define-macro is not hygienic, so to reproduce it exactly you use explicit renaming and just don't rename anything. 2021-01-15T19:53:53Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T19:54:04Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-15T19:55:26Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-15T20:17:05Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T20:24:06Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-15T20:26:21Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-15T20:26:59Z civodul quit (Quit: Rebooting into new Guix System generation.) 2021-01-15T20:32:00Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-15T20:39:54Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T20:47:07Z Zipheir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T20:51:12Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T20:51:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T20:55:03Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-15T20:55:32Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T20:55:34Z mangol: peak vaporwave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N62gA844m70 2021-01-15T20:55:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-15T20:56:13Z civodul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T20:56:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T20:57:48Z dieggsy: can i find r7rs-small as text somewhere? 2021-01-15T20:58:27Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-15T21:01:20Z wasamasa: as a pdf you mean? 2021-01-15T21:01:28Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T21:03:02Z dieggsy: as like a text file 2021-01-15T21:04:03Z dieggsy: that i can just open in emacs and search or sometihng 2021-01-15T21:04:06Z mangol: dieggsy: this doesn't fit your request to a t, but the tex files are here: https://github.com/schemedoc/rnrs-metadata 2021-01-15T21:06:32Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-01-15T21:07:20Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-15T21:08:06Z jcowan: Unfortunately, the specialized Tex2html used for earlier RnRSes conflicts with the internal hyperlinks we are now using. Or so I am told. 2021-01-15T21:08:19Z Riastradh: That...shouldn't be hard to work around, should it? 2021-01-15T21:09:51Z mangol: what's tex2html written in? 2021-01-15T21:11:08Z [d] quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-15T21:11:15Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-15T21:11:59Z wasamasa: perl I bet 2021-01-15T21:12:19Z jcowan: Ask someone on the R6RS or R5RS editorial team, I guess. 2021-01-15T21:12:34Z jcowan: Or foof, who told me about the problem. 2021-01-15T21:12:39Z jcowan: (I think.) 2021-01-15T21:13:20Z dieggsy: oof 2021-01-15T21:13:41Z mangol: https://ds26gte.github.io/tyscheme/ is converted to HTML by https://ds26gte.github.io/tex2page/index.html -- both scheme 2021-01-15T21:14:13Z mangol: maybe that could be repurposed. RnRS uses LaTeX, but how idiosyncratic is the markup? 2021-01-15T21:17:09Z amirouche: skile all the things 2021-01-15T21:17:13Z amirouche hides to sleep 2021-01-15T21:22:49Z amirouche: s/skile/skribe/ 2021-01-15T21:23:25Z amirouche: here is the skribe user manual: http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Skribe/doc/user-3.html 2021-01-15T21:23:32Z amirouche: (but it does not fix the rendering pb) 2021-01-15T21:23:36Z amirouche: (yet) 2021-01-15T21:24:33Z mangol: what's the difference between Skribe and Scheme Scribe? 2021-01-15T21:24:56Z amirouche: what is Scheme Scribe? 2021-01-15T21:25:28Z amirouche: sorry 2021-01-15T21:25:43Z jcowan: Scribe is the S-expression based format used by Racket and Chibi. 2021-01-15T21:26:29Z amirouche: If Scribe is the syntax with a losange{then fooobar text} 2021-01-15T21:26:30Z amirouche: ? 2021-01-15T21:28:37Z jcowan: No, sorry, I'm thinking of Scribble. 2021-01-15T21:29:14Z jcowan: https://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/ 2021-01-15T21:29:27Z Riastradh: not to be confused with skribble, or skribbl, or cribbage, which is an entirely different species of thing altogether 2021-01-15T21:29:42Z jcowan: Or cabbage. Or garbage. 2021-01-15T21:29:50Z Riastradh: mmm cabbage 2021-01-15T21:30:14Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-15T21:30:21Z jcowan: though trashing memory can be called cabbaging it (I first saw this in a DEC manual for OS/8 Batch). 2021-01-15T21:37:31Z mangol: crabbagel 2021-01-15T21:39:04Z Riastradh: crabbagel sounds like a mistake that should never have been allowed to escape from the laboratory 2021-01-15T21:40:08Z mangol: a deranged experiment to attain godhood by conceiving and then consuming the ultimate food 2021-01-15T21:41:17Z mangol: crabbagel injected with extra-large doses of theobromine and vitamin D 2021-01-15T21:42:36Z mangol: jcowan: you should scan that manual page for posterity, unless you already cabbaged the manual 2021-01-15T21:43:01Z mangol: another uncanny resemblance: comestible and combustible 2021-01-15T21:43:14Z jcowan: I never owned the manual, but it may well be online. 2021-01-15T21:47:12Z mangol: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102748557 -- close but no cigar 2021-01-15T21:50:54Z jcowan: Ah, no, it was in a bug report on Batch, which lived in high memory on a machine that had no hardware memory protection. So if a program tried to use all available memory and was run under Batch, Batch would be cabbaged and would need to be reloaded when the program completed. 2021-01-15T21:52:36Z mangol: nevertheless, it must have existed in the vernacular at the time 2021-01-15T21:52:44Z mangol: "Barlowe's Herbal Elixirs now offers 99% Theobromine, the most potent and concentrated cacao bean extract possible." 2021-01-15T21:52:50Z mangol: sold on amazon 2021-01-15T21:53:43Z jcowan: BATCH FILE BUFFER RESIDES IN CORE LOWER THAN THE LOCATION CHECKED BY THE MONITOR .. -ETC... TO SEE WHETHER BATCH IS IN CORE THIS RESULTS IN A BUFFER OF GARBAGE IF IT HAPPENS TO BE CABBAGED BY A PROGRAM WHICH OCCUPIES OR USES THAT AREA .. SINCE BATCH IS O.K., AND DOESN'T HAVE TO READ A NEW BUFFER. PERHAPS WHEN IT READS A NEW BUFFER, IT COULD SAVE THE FIRST WORD OF THE BUFFER, AND HATCH IT WITH WHAT IS IN CORE, TO 2021-01-15T21:53:43Z jcowan: DETERMINE INTACTNESS?? 2021-01-15T21:53:54Z mangol: that's pretty damn impressive if true. for lots of compounds many would die for (or due to) that kind of purity 2021-01-15T21:54:15Z jcowan: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/decus/pdp8/12-bit_SIG/fiche/12-bit_SIG_newsletter%2324_Sep77.pdf (p. 27) 2021-01-15T21:55:40Z mangol: hatchcabbage. that sounds like the name of a hardcore punk band 2021-01-15T21:55:54Z mangol: and/or another science experiment 2021-01-15T21:56:24Z mangol: https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2008.725 2021-01-15T21:56:31Z mangol: Theobromine as undesirable substances in animal feed 2021-01-15T21:56:49Z mangol: and we come full circle 2021-01-15T21:57:52Z mangol: TIL: don't feed chocolate to horses 2021-01-15T21:58:58Z mangol: this paper also confirms the better-known fact that dogs should not be let near chocolate 2021-01-15T21:59:59Z jcowan: Or Tylenol (acetominophen/paracetamol), which they adore. A dog will bite through a bottle, wolf down the whole thing, and die of liver failure. 2021-01-15T22:00:23Z jcowan: (Humans can too, but at least there are liver transplants for humans.) 2021-01-15T22:02:35Z mangol: i didn't even know it's sold bottled. is it taken nasally or what? must be pretty diluted. 2021-01-15T22:09:41Z greyeax joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:14:12Z jcowan: No, I mean a bottle of capsules. The one I have holds 250 capsules with 500 mg each. But we have no toddlers or dogs in the house. 2021-01-15T22:15:33Z mangol: seems ibuprofen is also toxic to dogs 2021-01-15T22:17:30Z gwatt: They're toxic to humans too. Remember, the difference between poisoning and medicating is dosage! 2021-01-15T22:17:49Z mangol: dogs can be given tramadol, which is an opioid 2021-01-15T22:17:51Z gwatt: And a lethal amount is a lifetime supply 2021-01-15T22:18:05Z mangol: brutal 2021-01-15T22:19:16Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-15T22:20:55Z mangol: also from wikipedia, theobromine and caffeine are both methylxanthines, but theanine is an analog of the neurotransmitter glutamate 2021-01-15T22:21:29Z mangol: It is used by every major excitatory function in the vertebrate brain, accounting in total for well over 90% of the synaptic connections in the human brain. 2021-01-15T22:21:46Z mangol: tea brain 2021-01-15T22:24:11Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-15T22:27:39Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:35:46Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-15T22:37:52Z mangol: also if you made a solution with the right concentration of theobromine, it would be chocolate eye drops? 2021-01-15T22:38:08Z mangol: how cool would that be 2021-01-15T22:38:09Z conjunctive quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T22:38:48Z copec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-15T22:38:48Z Boarders quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T22:39:06Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:39:08Z copec joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:39:12Z conjunctive joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:40:15Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T22:40:36Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T22:40:57Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-15T22:46:31Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:50:28Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-15T22:52:17Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:56:28Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:58:17Z duncanm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T22:58:18Z cemerick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T22:58:21Z kilimanjaro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T22:58:21Z kwmiebach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T22:58:24Z ec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T22:58:27Z duncanm joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:58:27Z rudybot: la la la 2021-01-15T22:58:29Z cemerick joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:58:30Z kwmiebach joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:58:31Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-15T22:58:37Z ec joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:00:08Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:00:20Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-15T23:00:57Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-15T23:01:13Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-15T23:01:44Z codingquark quit (Quit: oh my) 2021-01-15T23:01:47Z rann quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-15T23:01:55Z codingquark joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:01:57Z rann joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:03:45Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T23:03:45Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-15T23:13:36Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:13:57Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:18:49Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-15T23:20:28Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:20:52Z elly quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T23:20:52Z ohama quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T23:20:52Z brettgilio quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T23:20:52Z wasamasa quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T23:20:52Z ozzloy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-15T23:20:59Z ozzloy joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:20:59Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2021-01-15T23:20:59Z ozzloy joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:21:11Z elly joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:21:13Z wasamasa joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:21:22Z ohama joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:22:06Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:23:10Z brettgilio joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:24:26Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:25:18Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-15T23:57:13Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-16T00:03:52Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-16T00:05:56Z Gnuxie[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-16T00:06:19Z lcn joined #scheme 2021-01-16T00:06:39Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-16T00:11:00Z greyeax quit (Quit: greyeax) 2021-01-16T00:11:41Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T00:12:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T00:13:16Z [d] quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-16T00:13:23Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-16T00:17:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T00:23:39Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-16T00:28:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T00:31:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-16T00:32:09Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-16T00:32:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T00:32:57Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T00:34:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T00:37:40Z jgart joined #scheme 2021-01-16T00:38:42Z jgart: Hello! `local-file` is a record that is then shadowed by the macro local-file (using define-syntax). Is my thinking correct on that? I'm reading the code in this scheme file: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/guix/gexp.scm#n406 2021-01-16T00:40:28Z jgart: given that the gexp module is imported into this snippet: https://paste.debian.net/1181323/ 2021-01-16T00:40:29Z jgart:  Is the macro local-file being called or the record ? 2021-01-16T00:40:36Z jgart: any help is greatly appreciated 2021-01-16T00:42:38Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-16T00:57:18Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T00:58:00Z Oxyd: local-file is the name of the macro. The record is called , not local-file. But the local-file macro ultimately ends up creating a object. 2021-01-16T01:00:22Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-16T01:06:11Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T01:06:18Z jgart: Oxyd thank you! So would it be correct to say that the local-file macro wraps the record? 2021-01-16T01:06:45Z Oxyd: Depends on what you mean by “wraps”. 2021-01-16T01:08:03Z jgart: Or maybe I'm looking for a word to describe the record object's relationship to the local-file macro 2021-01-16T01:08:05Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-16T01:09:01Z Oxyd: Looks to me that local-file is the public interface for creating objects. So maybe “creates”. 2021-01-16T01:10:36Z amirouche: yeah skribble is less good that skribe 2021-01-16T01:21:49Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-16T01:23:49Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-16T01:35:19Z jgart: Oxyd: Thanks, it's all clear now 2021-01-16T02:04:22Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T02:06:27Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-16T02:18:34Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-16T02:38:42Z jgart quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-01-16T02:47:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T03:10:25Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-16T03:11:07Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-16T03:11:37Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-16T03:11:54Z Blkt joined #scheme 2021-01-16T03:12:11Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-16T03:12:27Z Blkt joined #scheme 2021-01-16T03:15:14Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-16T03:15:31Z Blkt joined #scheme 2021-01-16T03:21:48Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2021-01-16T03:25:39Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T03:25:46Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T03:26:14Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-16T03:31:00Z badkins_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-16T03:37:46Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-16T03:52:57Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-16T03:55:16Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-16T04:22:16Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T04:24:51Z aeggenberger joined #scheme 2021-01-16T04:32:34Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-16T04:34:09Z aeggenberger quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-01-16T04:35:04Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-16T05:01:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T05:01:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T05:11:47Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-16T05:21:53Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-16T05:27:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T05:31:50Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T05:43:37Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-16T05:47:07Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T05:48:06Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-16T06:02:09Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T06:03:10Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-16T06:03:42Z aeggenberger joined #scheme 2021-01-16T06:09:05Z aeggenberger quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-01-16T06:17:35Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-16T06:19:10Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T06:19:30Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-16T06:24:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T06:24:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T06:28:58Z titanbiscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T06:40:20Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T06:40:43Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-16T06:45:20Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T06:49:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T07:25:25Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-16T07:38:38Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T08:18:52Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-16T08:37:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T08:37:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T08:51:09Z evdubs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T08:51:31Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-01-16T09:08:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-16T09:25:37Z amirouche: someone is trying my http parser pre-srfi \o/ 2021-01-16T09:25:53Z amirouche: ref: https://github.com/pre-srfi/http-1.1 2021-01-16T09:29:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T09:33:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-16T10:05:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T10:05:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T10:06:00Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T10:07:26Z lcn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T10:27:52Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-16T11:17:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-16T11:29:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T11:32:06Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-16T11:33:30Z dpk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-16T11:33:43Z dpk joined #scheme 2021-01-16T11:34:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T11:34:58Z srji quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T11:35:14Z srji joined #scheme 2021-01-16T11:35:16Z evdubs quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-16T11:41:06Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-01-16T12:08:57Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-16T12:22:57Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-16T12:36:03Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-16T12:37:57Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-16T12:42:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T12:42:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T12:48:49Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-16T12:50:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T12:50:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T13:31:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T13:35:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T13:41:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T13:41:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T13:45:21Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-16T13:51:43Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-16T14:05:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T14:05:30Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T14:06:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T14:06:30Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T14:07:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T14:07:30Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T14:08:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T14:08:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-16T14:09:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T14:20:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T14:26:23Z lockywolf quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-16T14:28:13Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-01-16T14:30:10Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T14:30:59Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-01-16T14:31:32Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T14:53:38Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T15:02:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T15:07:26Z Baerwin joined #scheme 2021-01-16T15:07:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T15:24:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T15:47:47Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-16T16:10:47Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T16:14:10Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T16:14:33Z klovett_ is now known as klovett 2021-01-16T16:23:43Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-16T16:29:04Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T16:41:49Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T16:44:30Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T16:48:18Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-16T16:49:59Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T16:52:45Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-16T16:53:09Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T17:00:54Z Baerwin left #scheme 2021-01-16T17:08:01Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-16T17:23:37Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-16T17:26:33Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-16T17:28:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T17:29:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T17:34:40Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-16T17:34:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T17:35:50Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-16T17:39:10Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-16T17:40:57Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-16T17:41:51Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T17:42:20Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-16T17:42:49Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T17:45:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T17:46:49Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-16T17:47:02Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T17:47:06Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-16T17:51:48Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T18:08:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T18:09:17Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-16T18:10:43Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-16T18:22:36Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-16T18:39:58Z titanbiscuit joined #scheme 2021-01-16T18:42:54Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:11:08Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:11:55Z grobe0ba_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:12:34Z grobe0ba quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T19:12:34Z mzan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T19:12:50Z Formbi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T19:12:50Z topoi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T19:12:50Z amoe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T19:12:50Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T19:12:50Z DerGuteMoritz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T19:13:02Z amoe joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:13:06Z DerGuteMoritz joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:13:06Z klovett_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-16T19:13:10Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:13:11Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:13:24Z bitwize quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T19:13:24Z Formbi joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:13:41Z bitwize joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:14:41Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-16T19:15:09Z mzan joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:18:08Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-16T19:48:18Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-16T20:00:42Z civodul` joined #scheme 2021-01-16T20:02:49Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-16T20:16:45Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-16T20:27:05Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T20:29:35Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T20:30:16Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-16T20:38:16Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-16T20:41:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-16T20:47:39Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-16T20:58:28Z nij joined #scheme 2021-01-16T20:58:57Z nij: Does anyone here use scheme for scripting? I'm looking for a lisp as my main scripting languages. Not sure the pros and cons.. 2021-01-16T21:00:43Z mangol: nij: personally, I do that a lot and use Gauche most of the time for scripting purposes. highly recommended - fast, portable interpreter with "batteries included" and a comprehensive manual 2021-01-16T21:01:24Z nij: What does "battery" here mean? 2021-01-16T21:01:35Z mangol: libraries 2021-01-16T21:02:08Z mangol: "batteries included" is a marketing slogan for electrical toys, meaning whoever buys the toy doesn't need to buy batteries separately 2021-01-16T21:02:45Z mangol: Python originally applied it to programming languages to advertise that the default install comes with an unusually large amount of useful libraries 2021-01-16T21:02:51Z nij: haha i see. Have you tried Guile? I'm starting my journel with guix.. so used to plan on using that. 2021-01-16T21:03:03Z nij: And.. would you mind sharing some of your examples :D? 2021-01-16T21:03:46Z mangol: Guile is also popular for that purpose, and has somewhat similar strengths to Gauche. I haven't use Guile a lot so I'm not the best person to compare them 2021-01-16T21:04:52Z mangol: Chicken is also good for scripting but you need to install eggs (third-party libraries) for most stuff, the default install is quite minimal 2021-01-16T21:04:56Z nij: mangol: sure. If you know of any examples of scripts in scheme to share, it'd be very helpful :D 2021-01-16T21:05:27Z mangol: there are many but spread all over github... here's a decent starting point: https://github.com/lassik/unix-flags 2021-01-16T21:06:10Z mangol: it finds all the JSON files in the script's directory and generates HTML table based on them 2021-01-16T21:06:25Z mangol: here's similar stuff: https://github.com/schemeorg/registry.scheme.org 2021-01-16T21:06:33Z mangol: generate.scm is the script 2021-01-16T21:06:54Z civodul` is now known as civoudl 2021-01-16T21:06:57Z civoudl is now known as civodul 2021-01-16T21:07:02Z mangol: actually all of https://github.com/schemeorg is a decent showcase of scheme scripting 2021-01-16T21:08:14Z mangol: also if you use SRFIs a lot, Gauche comes bundled with more SRFIs than just about anything elese 2021-01-16T21:08:32Z mangol: + full R7RS support 2021-01-16T21:09:24Z mangol: https://github.com/schemedoc also has loads of scheme scripts 2021-01-16T21:09:40Z nij: mangol: thanks T_T 2021-01-16T21:09:49Z nij: It's really hard to tell from the surface which one is good or bad. 2021-01-16T21:10:05Z mangol: implementations or examples? 2021-01-16T21:11:02Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T21:12:37Z nij: examples 2021-01-16T21:12:49Z nij: so these are really helpful pointers 2021-01-16T21:12:51Z nij: thank you :D 2021-01-16T21:13:27Z mangol: just poke in some of the above listed repos at random :) there's pretty similar stuff in most of them: read JSON/S-expressions/XML, merge and filter, write out a file 2021-01-16T21:13:50Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T21:14:19Z nij: will do :D 2021-01-16T21:14:24Z mangol: re: implementations, if you stick to R7RS and SRFIs a lot, you'll have an easier time switching between different Scheme implementations 2021-01-16T21:14:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T21:15:05Z nij: will keep that in mind! 2021-01-16T21:15:05Z mangol: unfortunately we don't yet have SRFIs for some of the usual stuff like subprocesses etc. we're working on them but it's slow 2021-01-16T21:15:23Z aeth: #scheme is in an interesting situation because it's divided between people who write portable Scheme (and thus have to ignore most implementation-specific things, no matter how convenient) and people who contribute to the internals of Scheme implementations (and thus implement the things that the first group can't use) 2021-01-16T21:15:26Z nij: I haven't really started using those .. 2021-01-16T21:15:39Z nij: HMMM 2021-01-16T21:15:52Z nij: Maybe I should start from learning to write portable schemes! 2021-01-16T21:16:03Z nij: As I don't want to dive into a particular schemes yet. 2021-01-16T21:16:11Z nij: Any suggestions? 2021-01-16T21:17:07Z mangol: recommendations depend on how much prior programming experience you have, and in what languages 2021-01-16T21:17:35Z mangol: do you know any Lisp dialect previously? 2021-01-16T21:17:46Z nij: I know elisp. 2021-01-16T21:17:59Z mangol: then you'll find most of Scheme to be easy to pick up :) 2021-01-16T21:18:07Z nij: I've read the manual of guix and guile (well, still working on.) 2021-01-16T21:18:07Z Zipheir: R5RS and R6RS are very incompatible. R5 isn't too different from R7, and R6 can be implemented as a subset of R7 (with a couple of annoying breakages, e.g. bytevector-copy) 2021-01-16T21:18:22Z nij: mangol: Right but I'd hope to learn the compatible scheme.. 2021-01-16T21:18:33Z mangol: that's a laudable goal :) 2021-01-16T21:18:36Z nij: so I imagine I have to pay attention to not using the imcompatible ones. 2021-01-16T21:18:42Z aukkras: r8rs when ? 2021-01-16T21:18:52Z Zipheir: Sorry, that was a reply to nij for a different channel :) 2021-01-16T21:19:01Z mangol: there has recently been a big push toward expanding the capabilities of portable scheme code 2021-01-16T21:19:19Z mangol: so more features are coming steadily 2021-01-16T21:19:36Z nij: :( 2021-01-16T21:19:46Z nij: I thought RnRS would be more compatible if n is smaller 2021-01-16T21:19:48Z nij: not the case? 2021-01-16T21:20:12Z Zipheir: More compatible with what? 2021-01-16T21:20:26Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-16T21:20:47Z mangol: both R6RS and R7RS come with a R5RS compatibility library 2021-01-16T21:20:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T21:21:26Z mangol: the big issue is that R6RS and R7RS are quite incompatible. those are the two standards that are still in wide use for practical code 2021-01-16T21:21:55Z mangol: however, with some care it's possible to write libraries that are portable to both R6RS and R7RS without duplicating much code 2021-01-16T21:22:02Z nij: Zipheir: in general, I mean.. if it makes sense. 2021-01-16T21:22:27Z mangol: nij: your assumption that higher N should be compatible with lower N is perfectly reasonable 2021-01-16T21:22:32Z nij: Like if I write in R1RS, will that work for all RnRS? 2021-01-16T21:22:46Z amirouche: R1RS is pre-historic 2021-01-16T21:23:21Z amirouche: or if you prefer: Before Common Era 2021-01-16T21:23:23Z mangol: unless I recall wrongly, R3RS was the first standard that was basically compatible wit current scheme, just with way less features 2021-01-16T21:23:33Z amirouche: really, there is R5RS, R6RS and R7RS in active use 2021-01-16T21:23:47Z mangol: R0RS, R1RS, R2RS were more like research reports from MIT than serious standards 2021-01-16T21:24:01Z nij: hmm.. 2021-01-16T21:24:23Z amirouche: what year R0RS was published, I do not remember? 2021-01-16T21:24:30Z amirouche: around 70s 2021-01-16T21:24:32Z amirouche: ? 2021-01-16T21:24:49Z mangol: R3RS was implemented by some early 1990's Schemes; R4RS is still used by some of the smallest niche Scheme implementations; R5RS is the most "classic" Scheme standard, the Platonic ideal of Scheme 2021-01-16T21:25:02Z mangol: R6RS and R7RS are what we use for almost all practical programming now 2021-01-16T21:25:06Z aeth: nij: Common Lisp is the Lisp that never breaks backwards compatibility (well, not significantly, anyway). Scheme has had frequent breaks of backwards compatibility. That's why Scheme's API is generally cleaner, but that also means that you can't really expect to run Scheme from 1984 in a modern 2021 Scheme. 2021-01-16T21:25:14Z Zipheir: (Isn't R0RS just the Lambda Papers?) 2021-01-16T21:25:18Z nij: I will look into R5RS then :D 2021-01-16T21:25:26Z nij: Plus guile is R5RS iirc 2021-01-16T21:25:38Z amirouche: guile is all three I cited. 2021-01-16T21:25:50Z amirouche: with more or less success 2021-01-16T21:25:50Z Zipheir: R5RS is history. There's only R6 and R7 going forward. 2021-01-16T21:25:57Z Zipheir: Guile is R6RS. 2021-01-16T21:26:03Z nij: jeez 2021-01-16T21:26:10Z Zipheir: Or as close to R6 as anyone can get. 2021-01-16T21:26:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T21:26:18Z nij: So if I choose scheme.. 2021-01-16T21:26:27Z aeth: nij: Oh, and elisp is somewhere in between in terms of breaking things. It can break compatibility since it's a one-implementation language (two if you count XEmacs, which died about 10 years ago afaik) instead of a standardized language, but it was intentionally archaic so in a sense, it's even more of an Old Lisp than Common Lisp is. 2021-01-16T21:26:27Z amirouche: nij: go with guile :) 2021-01-16T21:26:30Z nij: I have to be ready that one day the dialect will die off.. 2021-01-16T21:26:30Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-16T21:26:42Z amirouche: nij: not necessarly... the upgrade path is possible 2021-01-16T21:26:45Z nij: amirouche: I guess so, as I'm going to use guix anyway. 2021-01-16T21:26:47Z Zipheir: Every language has that possibility. 2021-01-16T21:26:48Z mangol: amirouche: R0RS is Scheme: An Interpreter for Extended Lambda Calculus (AI Memo No. 349) 2021-01-16T21:27:05Z mangol: from 1975 2021-01-16T21:27:07Z amirouche: +1 Zipheir 2021-01-16T21:27:09Z amirouche: mangol: tx 2021-01-16T21:27:11Z Zipheir: nij: If it's any comfort, Scheme programs from the late 80s usually run with minor tweaks. 2021-01-16T21:27:36Z Zipheir: nij: SRFI 1, part of the "holy writ" of most Schemes, is still basically the same implementation that Olin Shivers wrote in the 90s. 2021-01-16T21:27:42Z mangol: Zipheir: Guile 3.x adds R7RS support in addition to R6RS 2021-01-16T21:27:43Z amirouche: mit/scheme has some code that still does not use define-record-type it run but it is maintained. 2021-01-16T21:27:55Z Zipheir: mangol: Right. 2021-01-16T21:28:06Z nij: oh :O 2021-01-16T21:28:11Z aeth: Scheme starts really becoming Scheme with R4RS, e.g. hygienic macros were optional and in the appendix. 2021-01-16T21:28:27Z nij: ok.. 2021-01-16T21:28:33Z aeth: R4RS was late 1991... 2021-01-16T21:28:39Z mangol: aeth: yeah, Emacs Lisp is like Maclisp dragged kicking and screaming toward Common Lisp, or something along those lines :) 2021-01-16T21:28:47Z Zipheir: Hah. 2021-01-16T21:29:09Z nij: lol 2021-01-16T21:29:10Z aeth: This looks very similar to R7RS-small... https://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r4rs.pdf 2021-01-16T21:29:15Z amirouche: (define-record-type is not necessary, tho, I think it is good style) 2021-01-16T21:29:16Z mangol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maclisp 2021-01-16T21:30:40Z X-Scale: And 2021-01-16T21:30:41Z X-Scale: IEEE 1178-1990 2021-01-16T21:30:58Z Zipheir: Lest we forget. 2021-01-16T21:31:02Z X-Scale: https://standards.ieee.org/standard/1178-1990.html 2021-01-16T21:31:27Z jackhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-16T21:31:43Z mangol: wasn't the IEEE standard basically R4RS? 2021-01-16T21:31:54Z mangol: with minor differences 2021-01-16T21:32:37Z aeth: So on November 2 this year, we'll have 30 years of mostly-compatible Scheme (R4RS onward) 2021-01-16T21:32:45Z mangol: \o/ 2021-01-16T21:32:54Z Zipheir: It's pretty hard to compare with the IEEE standard being non-distributable. 2021-01-16T21:32:56Z aeth: Most R5RSes probably started as R4RSes in the R4RS era 2021-01-16T21:33:13Z mangol: good point 2021-01-16T21:33:25Z Zipheir: I quote jcowan as saying "R5RS was just a bugfix release for R4." 2021-01-16T21:33:39Z nij: So 2021-01-16T21:33:54Z nij: I'm sure R5 R6 R7 are incompatible to each other in some way. 2021-01-16T21:33:55Z Zipheir: I wonder if there's anyone aside from Nils (s9fes) sticking to R4... 2021-01-16T21:33:56Z mangol: and R7RS is basically R5RS + a standard system for defining and importing libraries 2021-01-16T21:34:03Z nij: But I'm sure there are intersections as well. 2021-01-16T21:34:12Z aeth: But if you want a program to run unomdified in 50 years and be sure that it will work, you're pretty much stuck with COBOL, FORTRAN, Common Lisp, and C... 2021-01-16T21:34:14Z nij: Are there any tutorial that teaches how to write portable codes? 2021-01-16T21:34:18Z mangol: Zipheir: the microcontroller Schemes are probably R4RS 2021-01-16T21:34:24Z nij: (good tutorials) 2021-01-16T21:34:26Z Zipheir: nij: The core forms are basically "the same". The semantics are different, but most people don't worry about that. 2021-01-16T21:34:40Z amirouche: nij: look into some SRFI, mangol has good ones 2021-01-16T21:34:57Z Zipheir: nij: Many people recommend https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ 2021-01-16T21:35:00Z nij: amirouche: where to find :D ? 2021-01-16T21:35:01Z aeth: (Of course, a Scheme written to compile to one of the languages that I named will still run, but you might have to use an ancient version of it) 2021-01-16T21:35:02Z amirouche: mangol: is that the one about LOSE that is compatible with four of five schemes? 2021-01-16T21:35:19Z Zipheir: Portable Scheme is also the goal for https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Scheme_Programming, but it needs much more work. 2021-01-16T21:35:43Z amirouche hides himself 2021-01-16T21:35:55Z Zipheir: nij: https://srfi.schemers.org 2021-01-16T21:36:05Z aeth adds a bunch of Airship Schemisms to Zipheir's link 2021-01-16T21:36:18Z mangol: https://github.com/schemedoc/guides has drafts of guides for writing portable code 2021-01-16T21:36:34Z mangol: if anyone feels like being a writer, patches very welcome :) 2021-01-16T21:36:36Z Zipheir: aeth: Are there Airship Schemisms yet? 2021-01-16T21:36:42Z amirouche: aeth: off-topic but fun, you will not believe how much a AMD epyc cost at aws?! 2021-01-16T21:36:51Z amirouche: aeth: do not look, try to guess 2021-01-16T21:37:11Z mangol: amirouche: what about LOSE, you mean which SRFI it's in? 2021-01-16T21:37:12Z nij: srfi is a cool idea 2021-01-16T21:37:23Z aeth: Zipheir: :keywords perhaps? 2021-01-16T21:37:26Z mangol: nij's head is about to explode at any moment :D 2021-01-16T21:37:32Z aeth: amirouche: no idea 2021-01-16T21:37:33Z Zipheir: mangol: Cool. I might copy some of this (with attribution) for the Wikibook, when I get back to working on it. 2021-01-16T21:37:34Z mangol: or mine would anyway, if i was a newbie 2021-01-16T21:37:54Z nij: mangol: nope nope i'm good at filtering info 2021-01-16T21:38:05Z nij: but that also means ima going to ask similar stuff again in later future :P 2021-01-16T21:38:06Z mangol: ok excellent :) 2021-01-16T21:38:28Z nij: how to search for mangol's srfi? 2021-01-16T21:38:29Z amirouche: nij: look into this one https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-175 \cc mangol 2021-01-16T21:38:33Z nij: google does me tell me much 2021-01-16T21:38:34Z aeth: Zipheir: But already in the code, yes, there's one. Syntax like +inf.0f0 for single-float infnans 2021-01-16T21:38:36Z mangol: IRC can be like one of those "spaced repetition" memorization systems sometimes 2021-01-16T21:38:49Z aeth: Zipheir: I think Racket's syntax is +inf.f or something and that doesn't even look like a number 2021-01-16T21:38:51Z mangol: by virtue of people forgetting stuff and asking again at intervals 2021-01-16T21:38:55Z aeth: Zipheir: And most don't have single-floats... 2021-01-16T21:39:09Z amirouche: aeth: to rent an AMD Epyc, you pay the price of the CPU: every. single. month. 2021-01-16T21:39:10Z Zipheir: aeth: I hope you're going to support SRFI 208. :) 2021-01-16T21:39:19Z nij: DANG srfi is such a great idea 2021-01-16T21:39:22Z Zipheir: nij: Search for author "Lassi" 2021-01-16T21:39:31Z mangol: Zipheir: sure, copying from Wikibooks with permission is fine 2021-01-16T21:39:33Z nij: mangol = Lassi? 2021-01-16T21:39:38Z amirouche: aeth: AMD Epyc with 32 / 64 cores. 2021-01-16T21:39:43Z nij: any thing to deal with mangle lassi? 2021-01-16T21:39:54Z nij: that was one of my favorite during my trip to indea 2021-01-16T21:40:10Z Zipheir: mango? 2021-01-16T21:40:13Z mangol: wow cool 2021-01-16T21:40:16Z nij: oh yeah mango 2021-01-16T21:40:18Z nij: wrong spelt 2021-01-16T21:40:19Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T21:40:20Z Zipheir: I don't want a mangled lassi... 2021-01-16T21:40:35Z nij: dang mangle is a word haha 2021-01-16T21:40:47Z nij: mangle: severely mutilate, disfigure, or damage by cutting, tearing, or crushing. 2021-01-16T21:40:50Z nij: LOL 2021-01-16T21:40:56Z mangol: yeah, i was given this nickname because i complained that using real names on the internet is boring. mango lassi is a drink, originally from india probably. 2021-01-16T21:41:00Z aeth: Zipheir: There's nothing new in Airship Scheme since 2020-12-21, though. I had to take a break after taking way too long on the Scheme reader... 2021-01-16T21:41:10Z mangol: the lassi in mango lassi is spelled and pronounced like my name 2021-01-16T21:41:14Z aeth: Zipheir: I alternate between FOSS projects to avoid burning out. 2021-01-16T21:41:21Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-16T21:41:22Z Zipheir: aeth: Understandable, that's a deep rabbit hole. 2021-01-16T21:41:26Z nij: haha nice 2021-01-16T21:41:46Z nij: how about the little schemer? 2021-01-16T21:41:56Z nij: does that help on writing portable scheme codes? 2021-01-16T21:42:10Z mangol: aeth: you did Airship? neat! 2021-01-16T21:42:32Z aeth: Zipheir: The good news is that I started the current repo on 2020-02-29 so even if it takes until 2021-03-01 for me to get to 0.0.1, it won't even be a year yet. 2021-01-16T21:42:34Z Zipheir: nij: Some SRFIs are broadly implemented (SRFI 1, SRFI 13, SRFI 69, ...) and act as sort of a standard library for Schemes. Others (like SRFI 0 and SRFI 9) are now part of R7. 2021-01-16T21:42:40Z amirouche: aeth: you also get 2TB of ram... https://calculator.aws/#/estimate?id=43d7e9039697a60cba4a21aab7f6d93efda7accf 2021-01-16T21:42:52Z nij: Zipheir: nice! 2021-01-16T21:43:27Z nij: Schemers break scheme down every now and then and come up with a new scheme... 2021-01-16T21:43:34Z nij: so that's why it's kept minimal 2021-01-16T21:43:40Z aeth: Zipheir: If I release on 2024-02-29, it will have only taken me two years. 2021-01-16T21:43:44Z nij: while CLer's keep everything together (sort of) 2021-01-16T21:43:46Z Zipheir: (Actually, many more SRFIs are now part of R7RS-large. cf. https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/RedEdition.md and https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/TangerineEdition.md 2021-01-16T21:43:52Z jackhill joined #scheme 2021-01-16T21:43:53Z Zipheir: aeth: Not bad! 2021-01-16T21:43:54Z nij: that's why they are larger.. but also more full-fleged? 2021-01-16T21:44:03Z jcowan: Yes. 2021-01-16T21:44:16Z nij: cool i'd start with a smaller language ;) 2021-01-16T21:44:27Z mangol: nij: we don't really break down and rebuild the language; it's more that we can never agree on how to grow it in the first place :D (R6RS was a big exception to this rule, and indeed many disagreed with it) 2021-01-16T21:44:30Z jcowan: That said, I was able to get some Lisp code from 1958 (my birth year) running in Scheme with only a handful of changes 2021-01-16T21:44:39Z aeth: Zipheir: The joke being that only two February 29ths will have passed since the initial cl-scheme of 2016. 2021-01-16T21:44:58Z jcowan: aeth: In that case we will call it "Frederick" 2021-01-16T21:45:03Z nij: that takes four years 2021-01-16T21:45:05Z wasamasa: nij: I have just the right document for you: https://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-for-emacs-lisp-programmers 2021-01-16T21:45:17Z Zipheir: aeth: "A paradox, a paradox, a most ingenious paradox!" 2021-01-16T21:45:24Z nij: another scheme oh dear 2021-01-16T21:45:34Z nij: wasamasa: but but but my goal now is to aim for portable scheme 2021-01-16T21:45:38Z Zipheir: Damn, jcowan beat me to the G&S reference. 2021-01-16T21:45:39Z aeth: mangol: you've heard of Airship Scheme? 2021-01-16T21:45:42Z nij: it shouldn't be about which implementation i use .. 2021-01-16T21:45:47Z mangol: aeth: yeah! 2021-01-16T21:45:55Z wasamasa: nij: I'm afraid that you won't get too far then 2021-01-16T21:46:15Z nij: wasamasa: yeah that's portability's price 2021-01-16T21:46:20Z wasamasa: nij: what exactly do you plan to write? 2021-01-16T21:46:23Z nij: i will dump that dream some day and come back 2021-01-16T21:46:28Z nij: but want to start freshly 2021-01-16T21:46:32Z nij: wasamasa: daily scripts 2021-01-16T21:46:39Z wasamasa: exactly 2021-01-16T21:46:43Z nij: i just want to talk to my computer with a better language 2021-01-16T21:46:49Z wasamasa: you'll have to go into more detail than that 2021-01-16T21:46:55Z Zipheir: CHICKEN's pretty good for that, IME. 2021-01-16T21:46:55Z nij: wasamasa: but im also starting my journey with guix 2021-01-16T21:46:56Z wasamasa: for example whether you plan to do HTTP requests 2021-01-16T21:47:06Z wasamasa: because then portable scheme is already out, lol 2021-01-16T21:47:15Z mangol: it's already possible to write scheme code that is mostly portable, if you isolate the non-portable parts into a few procedures. 2021-01-16T21:47:26Z jcowan: nij: It is, though. I recommend reading https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations including the comments through #32 2021-01-16T21:47:36Z mangol: and (cond-expand ...) and (include "...") help a lot with portability 2021-01-16T21:47:47Z mangol: they're like Scheme's version of #ifdef and #include 2021-01-16T21:47:59Z nij: I mean, I want to start with portable scripts just to have a taste on what portable scheme looks like. 2021-01-16T21:48:06Z wasamasa: like the stuff in SICP 2021-01-16T21:48:17Z nij: As my need expands, i must embrace importability, whether that's a word or not. 2021-01-16T21:48:41Z wasamasa: look at the standards, look at the SRFIs, look at the table which SRFIs are supported 2021-01-16T21:48:54Z wasamasa: portable code means lots of yak shaving which is the opposite of writing daily scripts 2021-01-16T21:48:54Z mangol: nij: that's a very good principle. in practice, you'll probably have to start with some non-portable parts sooner than you'd like, but they won't be big parts 2021-01-16T21:49:14Z wasamasa: it's a language for enthusiasts ultimately who don't mind that 2021-01-16T21:49:28Z nij: wasamasa: that's a legit advice 2021-01-16T21:49:40Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T21:49:51Z wasamasa: my scheme projects only started taking off once I got over that fear of having to write my own scheme libraries 2021-01-16T21:49:55Z nij: jcowan: thanks. added into my to-read list! 2021-01-16T21:49:59Z wasamasa: thereby contributing to the community 2021-01-16T21:50:22Z wasamasa: before that it was lots of "Can't do that because nobody solved that particular problem for me" 2021-01-16T21:50:23Z mangol: the usual way to write portable scheme is to do everything with R6RS or R7RS that they cover; look for SRFIs for the remaining tasks 2021-01-16T21:50:35Z nij: wasamasa: sounds exciting 2021-01-16T21:50:39Z mangol: and if no SRFIs for that task either, use implementation-specific features 2021-01-16T21:50:40Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-16T21:50:48Z nij: mangol: read read read! 2021-01-16T21:50:52Z nij: I will do that! 2021-01-16T21:50:54Z mangol: and then add cond-expands later as the script grows and you test it on more implementations 2021-01-16T21:50:57Z wasamasa: nij: that is the upside, maybe you are in the mood of thoroughly understanding some problem 2021-01-16T21:51:04Z wasamasa: nij: instead of just using a ready-made solution 2021-01-16T21:51:22Z nij: yeah 2021-01-16T21:51:58Z mangol: in other words, pretty much like you'd write portable code in C++. use the standard for core stuff, use STL (standard template library) or Boost for the rest, then look around the internet or compiler intrinsics for other stuff 2021-01-16T21:52:34Z mangol: or any standardized language really. common lisp is similar (except they don't really use their equivalent of the SRFI process much) 2021-01-16T21:52:46Z mangol: whereas schemers use SRFI all the time 2021-01-16T21:53:36Z nij: exciting 2021-01-16T21:53:47Z mangol: https://github.com/srfi-explorations/srfi-test/blob/master/convert.scm -- here's one scheme script that's portable to chibi, chicken, gambit, gauche, guile, and kawa 2021-01-16T21:54:06Z Zipheir: It helps that most SRFIs are supposed to come with working implementations, portable, if possible. 2021-01-16T21:55:42Z nij: when will R8 R9.. pop out? 2021-01-16T21:56:16Z mangol: R7RS comes in two editions: small and large. small is done and finalized; large is a superset of small and is still being worked on 2021-01-16T21:56:28Z nij: (btw can chicken replace JS?) 2021-01-16T21:56:30Z mangol: so R8RS will hopefully come out many years after R7RS-large 2021-01-16T21:56:46Z nij: cool 2021-01-16T21:56:49Z mangol: replace JS in browser, as a server (e.g. Node JS), or for scripting? 2021-01-16T21:56:58Z mangol: *scripting=command line scripting 2021-01-16T21:57:27Z nij: ALL 2021-01-16T21:58:31Z mangol: Gambit and Chicken can compile Scheme to JavaScript. Gambit, BiwaScheme, Lips run a Scheme interpreter in JavaScript 2021-01-16T21:58:52Z mangol: Chibi and S7 interpreters can be compiled to the browser using Emscripten 2021-01-16T21:59:20Z mangol: there's a paper about Gambit JS support showing that it's very fast 2021-01-16T21:59:22Z wasamasa: there's a big difference in having to load megabytes of JS/WASM and compiling to a minimal JS file 2021-01-16T22:00:34Z mangol: that's the Achilles heel of the Gambit's current version. as far as I can remember it doesn't have a tree shaker yet so the generated JS files are bulky. it's on the todo list 2021-01-16T22:01:01Z wasamasa: the previously mentioned point of having to contribute applies :P 2021-01-16T22:01:01Z mangol: I don't know how large the files generated by Spock (Chicken's JS backend) are 2021-01-16T22:01:12Z wasamasa: not too large 2021-01-16T22:01:25Z mangol: yeah Scheme requires quite a bit of do-it-yourself attitude at this point 2021-01-16T22:01:41Z wasamasa: here's a project I did with it: https://depp.brause.cc/teapub/ 2021-01-16T22:01:50Z mangol: then again the same is true of CL, OCaml, Erland and things like that 2021-01-16T22:02:07Z wasamasa: 2699 bytes of scheme turn into 8802 bytes of JS 2021-01-16T22:02:22Z wasamasa: plus 81391 bytes of runtime 2021-01-16T22:02:40Z wasamasa: still orders of magnitude less than gambit, chibi and so on :D 2021-01-16T22:02:43Z mangol: so about 100K for the usual script 2021-01-16T22:02:52Z dan64- joined #scheme 2021-01-16T22:02:54Z wasamasa: yes 2021-01-16T22:02:59Z mangol: uncompressed 2021-01-16T22:03:31Z wasamasa: you could probably do even better at the expense of not having full scheme semantics 2021-01-16T22:04:25Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-16T22:05:03Z mangol: if BiwaScheme has a compiler (can't remember whether it does) it probably does something like that 2021-01-16T22:06:40Z mangol: anyway the upshot of all this is that at the moment JS Scheme is more or less impossible to write without talking to the implementors about bugs, missing features and other room for improvement you encounter 2021-01-16T22:06:57Z mangol: on the bright side, the implementors are great to talk to 2021-01-16T22:07:57Z mangol: Racket also has a JS backend called Whalesong but I don't know anything about it besides that it exists 2021-01-16T22:08:52Z wasamasa: I think that if I do a JS project, I'll probably stick to vanilla JS 2021-01-16T22:09:08Z wasamasa: I don't have the energy to renew this JS scheme survey project 2021-01-16T22:10:21Z bitwize: Hey, isn't JS basically Scheme anyway? /s 2021-01-16T22:10:59Z mangol: JS is basically Self (a dialect of Smalltalk with prototype-based instead of class-based inheritance) with C syntax AFAIK 2021-01-16T22:11:21Z bitwize: Hence the /s 2021-01-16T22:11:32Z mangol: and Smalltalk is basically a million tiny Scheme interpreters running in objects, so yes 2021-01-16T22:12:55Z mangol: also a curiosity for CLOS fans: http://tunes.org/~eihrul/ecoop.pdf 2021-01-16T22:13:00Z mangol: Prototypes with Multiple Dispatch 2021-01-16T22:15:43Z bitwize: Self, afaik, had a much simpler prototype model: to extend and object you simply clone it and add the necessary slots and methods 2021-01-16T22:16:08Z bitwize: JavaScript has the 'prototype' property which serves as a sort of metaclass-equivalent 2021-01-16T22:17:33Z bitwize: There are also lots of weird rules about what 'this' is bound to in JS 2021-01-16T22:18:00Z mangol: https://bibliography.selflanguage.org/_static/parents-shared-parts.pdf 2021-01-16T22:18:18Z jcowan: Well, Self allows multiple parent slots, so you have to flag which slots are parental rather than using a naming convention. 2021-01-16T22:25:09Z bitwize: Argh, JS is so frustratingly weird... but it is the future. 2021-01-16T22:25:27Z bitwize: Lisp machines are long dead, but our computers and operating systems are slowly morphing to JS machines 2021-01-16T22:25:51Z grobe0ba_ is now known as grobe0ba 2021-01-16T22:26:12Z wasamasa: said JS survey project: https://web.archive.org/web/20200405073418/http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html 2021-01-16T22:26:30Z wasamasa: clojurescript is by far the most mature solution, but not the only one 2021-01-16T22:27:26Z nij left #scheme 2021-01-16T22:27:29Z mangol: bitwize: in a sense, Smalltalk quietly runs half the world now. compare JS and Smalltalk. Ruby and Smalltalk. look into the "inspector" in a modern browser and compare to a Smalltalk IDE 2021-01-16T22:27:42Z mangol: not to mention every other IDE ever by Microsoft and others 2021-01-16T22:28:19Z mangol: it's like microkernels quietly running all the high-reliability embedded devices 2021-01-16T22:29:28Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-16T22:29:55Z wasamasa: come to think of it, this survey might be something for a community-led wiki 2021-01-16T22:30:03Z wasamasa: with links to code examples for each 2021-01-16T22:30:32Z mangol: still haven't been able to reach the admin of community.schemewiki.org 2021-01-16T22:30:55Z mangol: nor has any other schemer been able to reach him AFAIK 2021-01-16T22:32:26Z wasamasa: could live on the scheme.org thing, too 2021-01-16T22:33:30Z mangol: as it happens, https://web.scheme.org/ has the beginnings of a survey :) 2021-01-16T22:33:44Z mangol: pull requests welcome 2021-01-16T22:34:32Z mangol: i was so embarrassed by procrastinating on it that i tried to avoid mentioning it 2021-01-16T23:09:15Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-16T23:32:01Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-16T23:32:54Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T23:36:48Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-16T23:38:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-16T23:43:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-16T23:46:21Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-16T23:56:54Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-16T23:57:28Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T00:07:22Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-17T00:43:15Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-01-17T01:01:10Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T01:18:25Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T01:19:13Z snits joined #scheme 2021-01-17T01:53:57Z dan64- quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-01-17T01:55:29Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-17T02:09:44Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T02:51:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T02:51:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T02:57:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T03:08:36Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T03:09:02Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-17T03:17:20Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T03:30:14Z casaca quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T03:30:14Z codingquark quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T03:30:14Z _anb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T03:30:22Z amoe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T03:30:22Z Oxyd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T03:30:33Z codingquark joined #scheme 2021-01-17T03:30:34Z amoe joined #scheme 2021-01-17T03:30:57Z _anb joined #scheme 2021-01-17T03:31:38Z Oxyd joined #scheme 2021-01-17T03:33:13Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-17T03:33:46Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T03:33:49Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-17T03:34:25Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-17T03:37:59Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-17T03:41:51Z nihil joined #scheme 2021-01-17T03:42:29Z nihil: hello 2021-01-17T03:54:37Z nihil quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T04:04:05Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T04:18:19Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T04:19:18Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-17T04:35:25Z dieggsy: nihil: hello 2021-01-17T04:37:00Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-17T04:38:29Z dan64 joined #scheme 2021-01-17T04:39:37Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-17T04:44:39Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-17T04:53:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T04:57:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T05:02:56Z ByronJohnson quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-17T05:09:53Z ByronJohnson joined #scheme 2021-01-17T05:27:05Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-01-17T05:27:07Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-17T05:29:10Z casaca joined #scheme 2021-01-17T06:50:02Z amirouche: hello 2021-01-17T07:19:37Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T07:39:08Z skapate quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T07:44:30Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-17T07:54:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T07:55:24Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T07:55:42Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T07:57:25Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-17T08:02:08Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-17T08:03:22Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T08:03:30Z m1dnight1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T08:04:03Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-17T08:04:04Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T08:04:04Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T08:04:04Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T08:04:17Z gnomon joined #scheme 2021-01-17T08:06:49Z m1dnight1 joined #scheme 2021-01-17T08:33:39Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T08:50:21Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-17T09:01:25Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-17T09:04:54Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-17T09:07:09Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-17T09:09:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-17T09:09:28Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-17T10:07:19Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-17T10:07:59Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-17T10:09:02Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T10:09:16Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-01-17T10:25:20Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-17T10:41:52Z ngz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-17T10:42:06Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-17T10:55:46Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T10:56:11Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-17T12:04:12Z ngz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-17T12:04:26Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-17T13:07:07Z joshcom joined #scheme 2021-01-17T13:07:53Z joshcom left #scheme 2021-01-17T13:49:21Z mangol: here's a proposal to add docstrings and other declarations to the standard `define` syntax: https://github.com/pre-srfi/define-with 2021-01-17T13:49:39Z mangol: do you hate this? yes. yes, you do. but for what reasons though? that's what interests me :) 2021-01-17T13:50:42Z mangol: there has been some talk of adding CL/ELisp-style docstrings to Scheme. I think that would be a mistake; details in the reationale 2021-01-17T14:04:41Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T14:05:13Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-17T14:15:25Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T14:45:59Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-17T15:31:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T15:38:49Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-17T15:49:32Z aeth: CL-style docstrings are fine because if someone doesn't support them then they're just constant strings that are ignored because they have no side effects. 2021-01-17T15:50:32Z aeth: The way you get consistent indentation in a CL-style docstring is to start the docstring with with a line containing " and end the docstring with a line containing ", for symmetry. Then the entire docstring isn't indented, and the only ugliness is that the first " is indented. 2021-01-17T15:53:18Z aeth: The real complexity from docstrings in CL is when you're writing a macro to generate DEFUN that preserves the entire body, including declarations and docstrings, because they can be in either order. So you have: docstring body, declaration body, docstring declaration body, declaration docstring body, body. And the last body can be one line that returns a constant string that's not a docstring. 2021-01-17T15:54:41Z mangol: it's precisely to solve all of the problems you explain that my proposal uses the syntax that it does 2021-01-17T15:55:41Z mangol: (all of those and more: for example, CL docstrings aren't ready for S-expression markup) 2021-01-17T15:57:15Z mangol: the docstring padded with blank lines at the top and the bottom gets you consistently wrong indentation 2021-01-17T15:58:00Z mangol: the ruby community has already tried all the hacks to make docstrings consisting of a single multi-line string literal be lined up right 2021-01-17T15:58:16Z mangol: all of those hacks give a result that is found wanting, apart from the fact that they're, well, hacks 2021-01-17T15:58:22Z aeth: It's only the wrong indentation from a certain point of view, since it should go before any part of the body of the function. 2021-01-17T15:59:06Z mangol: not the case. the initial " is indented, but then the rest of the string lines are dedented compared to the " 2021-01-17T15:59:52Z mangol: and then the function body is re-indented to match the level of the initial " 2021-01-17T16:00:27Z mangol: even if the initial " weren't indented, that would be inconsistent with Lisp's usual indentation rules where everything after the opening ( in (defun ... should be indented 2021-01-17T16:00:49Z aeth: Yes, but virtually all of the docstring is lined up at the top level, with the thing that it is documenting, as well as with any comment-style documentation of the function, which would be top-level and before the defun/define 2021-01-17T16:01:30Z aeth: Docstrings aren't really part of the function body (except when you're generating them in macros, where it's more about getting to the real body, past the docstrings); they're special things. 2021-01-17T16:02:55Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2021-01-17T16:04:55Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T16:05:10Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T16:05:10Z mangol quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T16:05:18Z mangol joined #scheme 2021-01-17T16:05:26Z LeoNerd: I'm doing a talk at upcoming FOSDEM about Perl, but there's a slide in there that might amuse the Schemers.. I'm proposing a new equality operator, spelled `equ` 2021-01-17T16:05:33Z LeoNerd: Because the existing `eq` isn't quite right 2021-01-17T16:05:44Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T16:05:49Z nckx joined #scheme 2021-01-17T16:06:03Z tryte quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-17T16:06:40Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-17T16:06:49Z mangol: aeth: Lisp's conventional indentation rules don't apply only to function bodies. they apply to all forms delimited by parentheses 2021-01-17T16:07:37Z mangol: this regularity makes it easy to write things like the Emacs indenter and pretty-printers 2021-01-17T16:08:10Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-17T16:09:26Z aeth: There are some irregularities to the syntax. This varies based on the dialect. CL-style docstrings indented the way I described sort of become yet another syntactic irregularity, but it's by far the most convenient way to write long docstrings if they're CL-style docstrings, or, really, any docstrings, since your docstrings add a lot of decoration and indentation. 2021-01-17T16:10:28Z aeth: None of your examples look as good as the one I described if you can get past the aesthetic ugliness of the first " in the CL-style docstring, which becomes increasingly unimportant the longer the docstring is. 2021-01-17T16:11:03Z aeth: The main advantage of your style is that you can specify a format like markdown. 2021-01-17T16:12:18Z aeth: Plus, "assuming it's the consumer's responsibility to reformat all the whitespace" is just the wrong way to do docstrings because now you can't indent lines that are supposed to be distinguished, like code examples (or, really, to get properly functioning markdown in some cases) 2021-01-17T16:12:49Z mangol: i agree on the consumer's responsibility 2021-01-17T16:12:56Z mangol: (with (doc "foo")) in the current proposal is equivalent to CL "foo", and "foo" can be multi-line just as in CL 2021-01-17T16:13:20Z mangol: i personally think multi-line string literals are a bad idea in general, but i'll save that for another time. my proposal works with both single-line and multi-lien ones 2021-01-17T16:13:24Z aeth: The thing is, if it's the consumer's responsibility to handle the indentation, semantic information conveyed by the indentation will be lost. 2021-01-17T16:14:19Z aeth: (with (doc "foo")) is not equivalent to the CL-style "foo" because it becomes way more noticable and has quite a bit more decoration. You get a ` (with (doc "` line and a `"))` line, instead of just having a ` "` line and a `"` line. 2021-01-17T16:14:39Z aeth: Since Lispers are trained not to have )s on their own line, it becomes incredibly obvious instead of barely noticable 2021-01-17T16:14:47Z mangol: i was talking about semantic equivalence 2021-01-17T16:15:32Z mangol: neither CL nor my proposal deal with auto-trimming indentation; it's left to consumers 2021-01-17T16:15:58Z mangol: nor Emacs Lisp for that matter, which AFAICT has the same semantics as CL but with more conventions for what to write inside the docstring 2021-01-17T16:17:01Z mangol: anyway, my experience is that long docstrings break the flow of the code so much that they are a distraction no matter what syntax you use 2021-01-17T16:17:02Z aeth: Semantic equivalence is irrelevant for something that's largely a syntactic concern, which puts it into the domains of aesthetics and bikeshedding. 2021-01-17T16:17:26Z aeth: In my experience, long docstrings work fine in complicated macros, which is probably the only place that really needs them. 2021-01-17T16:17:52Z mangol: they are needed in user-facing functions in big systems like Emacs as well 2021-01-17T16:17:52Z aeth: An IDE could collapse them if it's a real issue. 2021-01-17T16:18:26Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-17T16:18:31Z mangol: the IDE collapsing is also in favor or using a more robust syntax 2021-01-17T16:18:40Z aeth: User-facing functions don't need docstrings anywhere near as long as complicated macros because the latter can do literally anything with literally anything. 2021-01-17T16:19:07Z mangol: ok, try to write in Emacs Lisp without using C-h f 2021-01-17T16:19:19Z mangol: not much fun 2021-01-17T16:20:47Z mangol: anyway, apart from intrinsically being a distraction (in the absence of folding in the editor UI), long docstrings also tend to long for some kind of markup language 2021-01-17T16:21:38Z mangol: and that opens the pandora's box about which markup language. using a string literal for a docstring doens't provide a satisfactory answer to that 2021-01-17T16:23:00Z aeth: Using a string literal for a docstring is minimalist, and it makes it barely noticable, just like comments are barely noticable with just a few ;s. 2021-01-17T16:23:19Z aeth: ` (with (doc "` is very noticable, and some of your variations are even more noticable. 2021-01-17T16:24:22Z mangol: in my experience, one-line docstrings aren't a distraction no matter what they do, and multi-line docstrings are a distraction no matter what they do 2021-01-17T16:24:55Z mangol: the indentation hacks make them an ugly and/or incorrectly formatted distraction, but even a correctly formatted one is still a distraction 2021-01-17T16:25:08Z aeth: And your definition of a long docstring is a lot shorter than mine if you think Emacs's built-in docstrings are long. 2021-01-17T16:25:35Z mangol: some of the Emacs docstrings are several screens 2021-01-17T16:26:56Z mangol: for example defcustom 2021-01-17T16:27:11Z mdhughes: I have a program that pulls out CL-style docstrings and defines in my code and generates doc HTML. Sometimes for internal code I just write ;; comments, but mostly I put in user-readable docstrings. 2021-01-17T16:27:30Z mdhughes: And I've strongly considered adding doctest functionality like Python has. 2021-01-17T16:27:30Z aeth: mangol: yes, elaborate macros, as I said. 2021-01-17T16:27:49Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-17T16:28:14Z mangol: mdhughes: https://github.com/pre-srfi/define-with also includes a doctest equivalent 2021-01-17T16:28:28Z mdhughes: There's another couple of variants in CHICKEN's eggs, but I didn't like any of them, and none of them worked in C5. 2021-01-17T16:29:27Z mdhughes: The (with) syntax is too heavy. Having to write a do-nothing macro to remove them in non-conforming Schemes is awkward, especially if it was buried in a library. 2021-01-17T16:29:27Z mangol: this discussion does raise the question of whether markup makes sense in comments. probably overkill 2021-01-17T16:29:37Z aeth: mangol: If you see multiline docstrings as a lost cause of being a "distraction" no matter what, that might be why your SRFI proposal is the way it is as far as multiline docstrings go, though. 2021-01-17T16:29:46Z mangol: but if there's a "markup literal" (e.g. that Kawa XML literal SRFI) it could be used for docstrings and comments 2021-01-17T16:29:55Z mdhughes: I use markdown in mine, but that's purely an implementation detail, it looks fine as ASCII text. 2021-01-17T16:30:10Z aeth: mangol: I would recommend trying to find someone who writes a lot of multiline docstrings to suggest some improvements or something. 2021-01-17T16:30:32Z mangol: i have written a lot of multiline docstrings for elisp 2021-01-17T16:30:45Z mangol: though nothing like defcustom 2021-01-17T16:31:16Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-17T16:31:31Z mangol: anyway, it's not just about writers but readers too. eventually it'd be good to have tools that parse all the docstrings from a big project and autogen HTML documentation with nice typography 2021-01-17T16:32:05Z mangol: that kind of extractor needs to know what markup is being used in the docstrings 2021-01-17T16:32:53Z aeth: Right now, your best format for multiline docstrings is extra ""s on blank lines, with considerable extra indentation (meaning the docstrings will either be longer than the rest of the body or have shorter lines than they could have) that requires special tools to reindent when editing since a naive M-q won't work because that will work within a string not between them. 2021-01-17T16:33:30Z aeth: And the alternative is to give up on indentation, or have an aesthetically uglier way of doing what you can do with CL-style docstrings 2021-01-17T16:33:39Z mangol: aeth: your aesthetic point about distraction vs not-a-distraction may be right, though i've always disliked the indentation hacks we've had to use for docstrings 2021-01-17T16:34:09Z aeth: Specifying the markup is the advantage, but it's unlikely to use different markup within the same file, so there are other ways you can go about doing this, like specifying in a header comment. 2021-01-17T16:34:22Z aeth: I would be shocked if Emacs didn't already have several of this. 2021-01-17T16:34:48Z aeth: You would have to potentially parse the file twice, though, first to check for a header comment. 2021-01-17T16:34:55Z aeth: And then with read or whatever. 2021-01-17T16:35:33Z mangol: i also have a proposal for file headers, but there's only so much controversy that's productive for one day :D 2021-01-17T16:35:50Z mangol: anyway, i'd like to keep the file header proposal orthogonal to this one 2021-01-17T16:36:38Z mangol: i dislike the header comment hacks even more than i dislike the docstring hacks 2021-01-17T16:37:05Z mangol: one should never have to parse comments in an inherently easy-to-extend syntax like S-expressions 2021-01-17T16:37:49Z aeth: Imo, instead of criticising CL-style docstrings, which many Schemes might have already adopted, you could instead just turn the first "..." in a body with more than one line into an implicit (with (doc "...")) as syntactic sugar. 2021-01-17T16:38:07Z aeth: Then you don't have to fight the bikeshed and you could try to get this into R7RS-large 2021-01-17T16:38:17Z mangol: that's a reasonable suggestion 2021-01-17T16:39:40Z mangol: another nice thing about it, is that turning "..." into (with (doc "...")) can be an optional extension 2021-01-17T16:39:53Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T16:39:58Z mangol: so they can be handled as separate proposals if need be 2021-01-17T16:41:01Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-17T16:42:24Z mangol: Common Lisp has (declare ...) which is basically an exact equivalent of the (with ...) that i propose. we could use `declare` but that's a bit verbose for things like docs and tests 2021-01-17T16:42:32Z mangol: and doesn't read as naturally 2021-01-17T16:43:48Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-17T16:49:25Z aeth: My guess is that one of the reasons why CL doesn't have something like that is because with-foo is a macro pattern that is very distinct from the concept of cl:declare, e.g. cl:with-accessors 2021-01-17T16:50:50Z aeth: It can also be in some Schemes/Scheme-likes, e.g. https://docs.racket-lang.org/search/index.html?q=with- 2021-01-17T16:50:57Z aeth: I'm not sure if every Scheme has that convention, though. 2021-01-17T16:52:02Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-17T16:52:09Z mangol: true. in scheme we also use `with-*` macros. maybe `with` is not a good name for declarations after all 2021-01-17T16:52:34Z mangol: `declare` sounds exceedingly formal. CL even has `proclaim`:) 2021-01-17T16:53:55Z mangol: i like that we have now factored the problem into orthogonal yet interoperable parts 2021-01-17T16:54:53Z mangol: that's usually the way to bet for solving complex/disagreement-prone problems in a non-hacky way 2021-01-17T16:55:18Z mangol: while allowing for non-hacky future evolution as well 2021-01-17T16:56:29Z mangol: "orthogonal yet interoperable" sounds a lot like "composable" lol. vaguely recall hearing about this before 2021-01-17T16:56:44Z aeth: There are two exact matches for "with" in the entire universe of Racket, too. https://docs.racket-lang.org/search/index.html?q=with 2021-01-17T16:56:58Z aeth: I kind of wish other Lisp dialects had that kind of search convenience. :-) 2021-01-17T16:57:28Z mangol: one is JavaScript's with, the other is some kind of DSL 2021-01-17T16:57:45Z mangol: agreed. quickdocs for CL was good IIRC 2021-01-17T16:58:08Z mangol: api.scheme.org should eventually have global identifier search for Scheme code, but i'll take time 2021-01-17T16:58:24Z mangol: *it'll 2021-01-17T16:58:46Z aeth: the context on quickdocs, for anyone wondering, is: https://github.com/quickdocs/quickdocs/issues/46 2021-01-17T17:02:35Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-17T17:02:55Z mangol: any suggestions for what keyword to use other than `with`? 2021-01-17T17:03:11Z mangol: also if we're clogging up #scheme, can continue elsewhere 2021-01-17T17:03:29Z aeth: mangol: Maybe ask jcowan 2021-01-17T17:03:38Z mangol: good idea 2021-01-17T17:03:55Z mangol: amirouche: you're interested in search. are you interested in code search? 2021-01-17T17:05:51Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-17T17:06:46Z mdhughes: Wow, if I wasn't already horrified and offended by the CL community, I would be after that bug thread. 2021-01-17T17:08:11Z aeth: mdhughes: I don't think it's the CL community, I think it's the Github community. :-/ 2021-01-17T17:08:19Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T17:08:20Z aeth: They really should not have had emojis and images and stuff in issue threads. 2021-01-17T17:08:58Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-17T17:09:42Z mangol: whatever the reasons, it pays to recognize that the "smug lisp weenie" and "bipolar lisper" stereotypes didn't come from nowhere 2021-01-17T17:10:13Z aeth: mdhughes: Compare that to a bugzilla thread or whatever. 2021-01-17T17:10:47Z mangol: and be sympathetic, because we can't improve ourselves and our communities without being sympathetic to the causes 2021-01-17T17:11:05Z mdhughes: I think I've never seen such "now now now!" demands in even some of the real flamewar bug reports I've been involved in. 2021-01-17T17:11:08Z aeth: (And I realize that sometimes, issue threads need images, but if they're attachments and related to the issue, it's way different than inline reaction images like Github often is full of) 2021-01-17T17:12:19Z aeth: mdhughes: I've definitely seen links to JS Github issues that have absolutely exploded in drama and I'm not even part of that community. 2021-01-17T17:12:40Z aeth: Although, yeah, CL seems to punch above its weight in drama in issues. Mostly just involving Hexstreamsoft, though. 2021-01-17T17:13:22Z mdhughes: It really does encourage 4chan-like arguments. Put a few cranky dudes in an environment with the channers, and you'll get that kind of drama. 2021-01-17T17:14:12Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-17T17:15:06Z mangol: my off-the-cuff armchair theory about lisp (including scheme) is that a lot of the frustration is about perfectionism and ambition struggling to find a constructive outlet 2021-01-17T17:15:51Z mangol: it sucks to live in a world where your talents aren't valued and don't have obvious areas of application 2021-01-17T17:16:12Z mangol: meanwhile the products of less talent, that often get in the way of your work, are praised 2021-01-17T17:17:13Z mangol: most good programmers tend to have this problem to some extent, but lisp is one of the communities where the people who have it worst tend to congregate 2021-01-17T17:17:41Z mdhughes: Maybe? But if your tools aren't helping you succeed, make your tools better or move on. I like Scheme because it's practical for many tasks, not because of any ideology or I think it's perfect. 2021-01-17T17:18:10Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-17T17:18:40Z mangol: that's one solution yes :) but it boils down to redefining success. there's a lot of variety in the extent to which different individuals can do that 2021-01-17T17:18:43Z mdhughes: But there was a long period from college until just a few years ago where I just used whatever the industry paid me to use. If I was snubbing my nose at industry all that time I'd probably be more upset. 2021-01-17T17:19:37Z mangol: but some people are also just intrinsically a poor fit for some environments. they can make adjustments, but it never really works very well 2021-01-17T17:20:41Z mangol: trying to find the silver lining is supposed to be mindset hack for tough situations. if that's one's whole life, that's probably diagnosable as depression. 2021-01-17T17:21:57Z mangol: the most persistently unhappy lispers might be best served by switching to a completely different field where bad ideas don't win as much as they do here 2021-01-17T17:22:34Z mangol: but the problem is by the time they realize how unhappy they are, they already love lisp. it's not easy to break up 2021-01-17T17:23:57Z mangol: clojure and haskell people don't have a reputation for being as unhappy, possibly because AI winter didn't hit their community 2021-01-17T17:30:12Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T17:30:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T17:30:50Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T17:31:07Z mangol: my prescription for fixing lisp's social problems is twofold: 1) really big and inspiring goals, the kind that lisp used to have; 2) show people that collaboration is palatable 2021-01-17T17:31:45Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-17T17:31:59Z mangol: by 2) i mean that lispers have a very strong intrinsic bias toward each going their own way, so we need to actively work to show people that they are better off collaborating and don't need to compromise on too much 2021-01-17T17:32:10Z mangol: both 1) and 2) are hard but doable 2021-01-17T17:42:49Z aeth: mangol: On perfectionism, I'd argue that Lisps are the only language where perfectionism is even *possible* because most of the time you can't sufficiently extend the language to get the "perfect" API. Some OOP styles can come close, but the syntax is still the domain of the language itself, and niche, perfectionist languages get ignored (even more than Scheme). 2021-01-17T17:44:27Z aeth: Higher order functions, like certain OOP styles, can also give you really elegant APIs, but you're still ultimately limited to the language's syntax. 2021-01-17T17:44:42Z aeth: Meanwhile, there are like 3-5 different ways to write infix Scheme. 2021-01-17T17:45:01Z mangol: excellent point 2021-01-17T17:45:48Z mangol: we could say the lack of arguing in most language communities is because people get discouraged before they even start to explore a problem 2021-01-17T17:46:34Z mangol: similar to the collaboration point in one of the well-known lisp essays (the bipolar lisper one?). in many languages you need to collaborate, in lisp it's optional 2021-01-17T17:47:53Z mangol: but we are increasingly discovering that it's not optional is you want to do the kinds of fun stuff that the industry is doing because it collaborated extensively for 3 decades 2021-01-17T17:49:02Z mangol: a lot of perfectionism can be productively viewed as too much energy applied to too small a problem. then the obvious cure is to find a bigger problem. 2021-01-17T17:49:10Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T17:49:29Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-17T17:49:30Z mangol: perfectionism in lisp wasn't a problem back when the problems were inventing new kinds of computers and tackling AI 2021-01-17T17:50:04Z mangol: presumably those people had the same degree of perfectionism in their personalities as we do, if not more 2021-01-17T17:50:49Z mangol: put those people to work on string libraries instead, and of course there's endless debate about minutiae 2021-01-17T17:51:40Z aeth: Right. The problems need to be big problems. Databases, web browsers, game engines, Linux distros (* there is a lot of scripting tooling with distros, mostly in Python/Perl/sh/Ruby), etc. 2021-01-17T17:53:18Z mangol: yeah. if the problem is big, and you need to solve it, you naturally let the less important details slide 2021-01-17T17:53:48Z mangol: we don't need to solve any big problems, so we get what we get 2021-01-17T17:54:49Z mangol: in the absence of need (e.g. deadlines), a really compelling vision, with some promise that it's within reach, will work 2021-01-17T17:55:14Z mangol: we're conspicuously lacking such a vision 2021-01-17T17:55:47Z mangol: datomic (the clojure database) was one rekindling of that spirit. it was boldly different from SQL 2021-01-17T17:56:17Z mangol: we'd be really happy if most of our energy went into projects as ambitious as that 2021-01-17T17:56:36Z mangol: and we did the string libraries and stuff as filler activities to rest from that stuff 2021-01-17T17:57:57Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-17T17:59:28Z mangol: projects like a web browser or a database are ambitious, but don't play into the lisp community's strength of being some of the best explorers in the history of computing 2021-01-17T17:59:38Z mario-goulart: Ironically, while we discuss about Lisp needing bigger challenges to solve, I think the general impression is that most Lisp implementations are barely usable for the most mundane tasks. 2021-01-17T18:00:05Z mangol: :D 2021-01-17T18:00:27Z mangol: probably because they don't need to be 2021-01-17T18:00:38Z mangol: there hasn't been an external force shaping them 2021-01-17T18:01:25Z mangol: https://github.com/ravenbrook/mps is being reanimated again 2021-01-17T18:01:56Z mangol: presumably one of the best memory management frameworks ever 2021-01-17T18:02:22Z mangol: i wonder how many implementations could be ported onto that for a performance boost 2021-01-17T18:03:01Z mangol: SBCL were looking for a google summer of code intern to do that once, but i don't think that materialized 2021-01-17T18:04:29Z mangol: anyway the AI winter caused Lisp to slowly submit to the Unix/Windows frame of reference and that's a constant tax on our motivation 2021-01-17T18:05:08Z mangol: at regular intervals you can hear some lisper/schemer saying some problem doesn't make sense to solve some way, because it doesn't make sense in unix 2021-01-17T18:05:40Z mangol: at scale, that attitude makes us replicate c/unix inventions, which we can't do as well as others due to economies of scale (lack of, in our case) 2021-01-17T18:06:21Z mangol: historically lisp was a community that set the frame of reference (for themselves, and often for others as well, however reluctantly and with a long delay) 2021-01-17T18:08:30Z mangol: so we'd be more motivated if we stopped following and started inventing things again. that would reduce a big part of the psychological frustration as well 2021-01-17T18:09:19Z mangol: at first people would be more stressed than we're now because AI winter caused us to drive ourselves into a rut, and a rut is like a gravity well, hard to escape 2021-01-17T18:09:25Z mangol: but eventually we'd be liberated 2021-01-17T18:09:32Z amirouche: generic tuple store (srfi-168) is imho a breakthrough. 2021-01-17T18:10:11Z amirouche: I am not sure why it does not play nice with into the lisp community's strength 2021-01-17T18:10:35Z amirouche: also everybody is busy 2021-01-17T18:10:47Z amirouche: I could do that because I was on my own without a day job. 2021-01-17T18:11:18Z amirouche: even in js, python lands, nothing of importance was invented 20 last years without day job support. 2021-01-17T18:11:32Z amirouche: it was done slowy the hard way on free time work 2021-01-17T18:14:04Z amirouche: what great stuff of importance will people remember about js or python except the chear amount devs... java is little different but still not much breakthrough 2021-01-17T18:14:16Z amirouche: I might be megalomaniac tho. 2021-01-17T18:16:04Z amirouche: here is what python came up with in the database space: https://www.edgedb.com/ that is a layer on top postgresql, not useability improvement, maybe worse but with more static typing. 2021-01-17T18:17:01Z amirouche: (btw I use some libs from magicstack, but not edgedb) 2021-01-17T18:18:12Z mangol: excellent points as well. i think srfi-168 and your peer-to-peer ideas are the kind of thinking lisp needs more of 2021-01-17T18:18:23Z amirouche: (btw I am a step 2/2 of a request to finance my work on the search engine :) 2021-01-17T18:18:31Z mangol: awesome! 2021-01-17T18:19:04Z amirouche: mangol: thanks, but those are "great / big ideas" scheme needs also mundane stuff like socket http... maybe we fight too many battles at the same time.. 2021-01-17T18:19:07Z aeth: mangol: The problem is that Lisps have an everything-in-one-language approach, while the C-based OSes have a very multilingual approach. Most Schemes submitted and became "scripting languages", while most Common Lisps were defiant and largely pretended that they were still running in their own OSes. Neither approach led to popularity. 2021-01-17T18:19:25Z mangol: megalomania is an extremely culture-bound (and personality-bound) concept. think of some words that are antonyms (opposites) of megalomania 2021-01-17T18:19:35Z mangol: notice how those words don't sound nearly as negative 2021-01-17T18:19:39Z mangol: or stigmatizing 2021-01-17T18:20:08Z mdhughes: Python's big database improvement is shelve, which lets you treat dbm as an object store. 2021-01-17T18:20:09Z mangol: it means our culture is suspicious of bold optimism, but not nearly as suspicious about timid pessimism 2021-01-17T18:20:39Z aeth: mangol: Many Lisps are perfectly capable of being used for web browsers or databases, but both would almost certainly require interoperating with other languages. 2021-01-17T18:20:56Z mdhughes: It's not a "big idea", but it uses all the little bits they already had, like pickle and objects that look like arrays, to make something really convenient. 2021-01-17T18:22:24Z Zipheir: amirouche: Are there any papers that you worked from for SRFI 168? The last time I looked it was hard to get a handle on the theory of the design. 2021-01-17T18:22:52Z mangol: aeth: C doesn't really have any more of a multi-language approach than Common Lisp does. it's just a vastly less powerful language so you can't do much in that language itself. that's why it feels like it's there to serve other languages 2021-01-17T18:23:13Z mangol: many HLLs (Haskell, Scheme) are hampered by being implemented on top of C 2021-01-17T18:23:16Z amirouche: Zipheir: no, too difficult. 2021-01-17T18:23:41Z aeth: mangol: C at the start was designed to be used with the POSIX shell (or, I guess, the pre-POSIX shell) and from there, there were many natural extensions to the concept, like Awk and Tcl and Perl. 2021-01-17T18:24:05Z aeth: mangol: Lisps were, at least in the 70s and 80s, intended to be the whole thing, from the very high level interfaces to the OS and perhaps down to the hardware. 2021-01-17T18:24:30Z mangol: ok, I didn't know C was already designed to be superseded. i stand corrected. 2021-01-17T18:24:44Z aeth: afaik, C and UNIX were developed together 2021-01-17T18:24:52Z aeth: So C and shell were companion languages from the start. 2021-01-17T18:24:54Z aeth: At least, afaik. 2021-01-17T18:25:21Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_shell 2021-01-17T18:25:24Z mangol: sounds about right. jcowan can correct us if not 2021-01-17T18:25:51Z Zipheir: aeth: WP says that sh was released in 1979 (years after C) as a successor to the "Thompson shell". 2021-01-17T18:26:05Z aeth: Looks like the Thompson shell actually came first, before C, so... I guess C was sort of just an optimization to it. :-) 2021-01-17T18:26:13Z mdhughes: C was developed to reimplement UNIX on a PDP/11. 2021-01-17T18:26:24Z mdhughes: Before that it was ASM. 2021-01-17T18:26:34Z Zipheir: Well, with the rest of UNIX being implemented in C, I suppose it made sense to port the shell. 2021-01-17T18:26:53Z aeth: We've been doing C programming horribly wrong this whole time, it's supposed to just implement composable commands for the shell, not to be used as a standalone thing. :-p 2021-01-17T18:27:32Z Zipheir: Composability is always a good thing. 2021-01-17T18:27:41Z mangol: :D 2021-01-17T18:28:07Z mangol: aeth: some very skilled Unix programmers would agree 2021-01-17T18:28:12Z aeth: But, yes, if the shell is the first class thing rather than C itself, then any random language can belong in UNIX. 2021-01-17T18:28:23Z aeth: In a Lisp OS, there's the main Lisp dialect and everything else. 2021-01-17T18:28:25Z mangol: present-day Lisp needs to heed the lesson of present-day Smalltalk BTW. Smalltalk went to an extreme in the our-way approach so it's hard to mix with anything else 2021-01-17T18:28:32Z mdhughes: Well, sure, a lot of early UNIX commands were implemented in ASM, or FORTRAN. 2021-01-17T18:28:39Z mangol: scheme is an especially good position re: mixing with other stuff, as some of you pointed out 2021-01-17T18:28:58Z mangol: but we're almost too comfortable in that pocket :) 2021-01-17T18:29:03Z mdhughes: And these days, Chez and some others work just fine as shell scripts *and* application languages. 2021-01-17T18:29:31Z mdhughes: The slower schemes, and those with long startup times, are not fit for scripting. 2021-01-17T18:29:34Z amirouche: Zipheir: also I think a paper would be low value, it is better to write a software.. 2021-01-17T18:29:39Z aeth: And to add to the point about UNIX being multilingual by design, look at the design of X. 2021-01-17T18:29:59Z aeth: You can implement an independent, no-FFI X client. CL has one. 2021-01-17T18:30:01Z mangol: amirouche: that's the Xerox PARC approach. too busy to write papers, so they'll send you the prototype hardware instead 2021-01-17T18:30:08Z amirouche: or maybe, write a software and then a paper. 2021-01-17T18:30:14Z mangol: LuaJIT's author was also too busy to write paper 2021-01-17T18:31:08Z mangol: VMS has some kind of explicitly defined OS wide calling conventions for multi-language support 2021-01-17T18:31:10Z Zipheir: amirouche: But how do we know what kind of behavior to expect of the tuple-store system if there's no explanation at all of the underlying idea? I can go dig through the sample implementation, of course, but it would be nice to have an overview somewhere. 2021-01-17T18:31:14Z aeth: amirouche: If you write software before writing prose, then you will probably never wind up writing the prose, whether it's documentation or a paper. Agile might have gone too far, and programmers might be too anti-documentation at the moment for our own good. 2021-01-17T18:31:31Z aeth: Plenty of things are very well-specified problems if you just write out what you're supposed to be doing in a technical way first. 2021-01-17T18:31:34Z Zipheir: Literate programming is a very silly idea. 2021-01-17T18:32:05Z mangol: hard to tell 2021-01-17T18:32:26Z aeth: Zipheir: Yes, on one extreme you have literate programming or maybe even the "waterfall" method where you write thousands of pages of spec before writing code; however, on the other hand, you have people who never document their code. 2021-01-17T18:32:37Z aeth: The Lisp community seems to be far closer to the latter, for the most part. 2021-01-17T18:32:39Z mdhughes: But docs without code are just fiction. 2021-01-17T18:32:58Z mdhughes: They will *never* be implemented like the docs say. 2021-01-17T18:32:59Z mangol: docs without code can be a faster way to iterate on a design at the start 2021-01-17T18:33:21Z Zipheir: Code is, of course, documentation, provided one remembers that it's meant to be understood by your fellow humans. 2021-01-17T18:33:23Z aeth: mdhughes: Only because usually the people writing the docs aren't the programmers implementing it and might not even be programmers who know what is realistic. 2021-01-17T18:33:43Z mangol: there was an excellent "pseudocode is imperative propaganda" meme around the internets a while back 2021-01-17T18:33:49Z aeth: mdhughes: But sometimes it does help to write out, in very realizable steps, what exactly one needs to do. 2021-01-17T18:34:01Z aeth: mdhughes: You can even do this in an executable way and get test-driven development. 2021-01-17T18:34:08Z Zipheir: mangol: Hah, well put. It's the universal ALGOL. 2021-01-17T18:34:09Z mdhughes: Code isn't generally documentation; it can be readable, sort of, by the right friends. But the COBOL fantasy didn't work out for managers. 2021-01-17T18:34:44Z Zipheir: And this is why we need to get better at formal semantics. 2021-01-17T18:34:51Z mangol: code is hard to write in a way that shows the high-level vision 2021-01-17T18:35:12Z mangol: rare to find a program whose `main` procedure makes you understand what the program does 2021-01-17T18:35:36Z mdhughes: My unit tests are not in any way readable by a normal person. They're 5-10 variations on bounds conditions and stupid inputs you'd never do, but I need to check for. 2021-01-17T18:35:43Z Zipheir: That is true. 2021-01-17T18:36:02Z mangol: prose is good for high-level stuff, what-if's, why-not's, and explaining interdependencies between things 2021-01-17T18:36:13Z mdhughes: This is why I write my docstrings, of course, so I can explain to me tomorrow what I'm doing today. 2021-01-17T18:36:21Z Zipheir: An expressive (dependent) type system can help for explaining more clearly what things "do". 2021-01-17T18:36:44Z mdhughes: But I also know those are mostly lies I've told future me, and I'll catch a bug and add it to the pile of tests. 2021-01-17T18:36:50Z mangol: the trouble with explanations is not how to add more of them, but how to have less of them while being more to the point 2021-01-17T18:37:12Z mangol: that's the fundamental problem with using types to talk about software: you always add stuff, never remove it 2021-01-17T18:37:45Z mangol: what about the problem that the volume of code is too great to begin with 2021-01-17T18:38:06Z mangol: if you add types or comments to that code, it doesn't shrink 2021-01-17T18:38:13Z mangol: or literate programming 2021-01-17T18:38:21Z Zipheir: make-vector : ∀ (n : Nat) ∀ (A : Set) → Vec A n , using Agda-like syntax for a homogenous Scheme vector-type, e.g. 2021-01-17T18:39:11Z mangol: if there's automatic type inference, the inference enging can figure out those signatures and optionally show them 2021-01-17T18:39:38Z mangol: so i'd file that under "orthogonal to the problem of too much code, not clear enough" :) 2021-01-17T18:40:02Z mangol: other things equal, can be very nice to have, but doesn't solve the main problem 2021-01-17T18:40:13Z Zipheir: I think "adding stuff" vs "removing stuff" has to be seen in the context of comprehensibility. A short but extremely dense program can be made clearer by adding intermediate values, formatting, etc. 2021-01-17T18:41:10Z mangol: i'd conjecture that it's about the fact that we haven't figured out the right abstractios for talking about stuff 2021-01-17T18:41:23Z mangol: also too many clumsy legacy interfaces that need to be supported 2021-01-17T18:41:39Z Zipheir: That's why we use different languages to describe our programs. 2021-01-17T18:42:11Z mangol: but none of them (except maybe things like APL and XPath, probably parts of Mathematica) is at a very high level of abstraction 2021-01-17T18:42:40Z mangol: in lisp you can build very abstract stuff, but to be comprehensible, it has to be shared with other programmers so it becomes a common language 2021-01-17T18:42:50Z mangol: everything is incomprehensible when you see it for the first time 2021-01-17T18:43:03Z Zipheir: "I don't care about RNA protein synthesis. I'm interested in that high-level [DNA] language." (Gerry Sussman) 2021-01-17T18:43:05Z mangol: if everyone rolls their own abstractions, you see everything the first time all the time 2021-01-17T18:43:11Z mangol: :D 2021-01-17T18:43:55Z aeth: that's why the best macros are the least surprising 2021-01-17T18:44:13Z aeth: If you see a new do-foo-bar then you probably know exactly what it's going to do even though you've never seen it before 2021-01-17T18:44:21Z mangol: for example `fold` and transducers are daunting for many/most people at first, but once they're in the standard library they'll become second nature 2021-01-17T18:44:47Z Zipheir: Macros are actually a fantastic tool for describing the "big picture". miniKanren's `run' is a great example. 2021-01-17T18:45:13Z mangol: aeth: yeah, conventions are a very valuable complement to abstraction 2021-01-17T18:45:36Z mangol: Zipheir: agree about macros 2021-01-17T18:47:09Z Zipheir: (i.e. miniKanren is implemented as a small bundle of functions, but the run macro turns that bundle into a language.) 2021-01-17T18:47:34Z mangol: re: comments, i never wrote many comments, and every year i write fewer comments than the last. old comments become incorrect all the time 2021-01-17T18:47:46Z Zipheir: Indeed so. 2021-01-17T18:47:56Z Zipheir: "Comments are not checked by a compiler." (Rob Pike) 2021-01-17T18:48:01Z mangol: word. 2021-01-17T18:48:29Z mangol: also wisdom from rob: comments on data structures are much more useful than comments on procedures 2021-01-17T18:48:41Z gagbo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T18:48:48Z Zipheir: Yes. That's a deep point. 2021-01-17T18:49:28Z mangol: we're both talking about https://www.lysator.liu.se/c/pikestyle.html right? one of the most underrated programming essays 2021-01-17T18:49:31Z Zipheir: (I do think Pike's C-style essay is a great read https://www.lysator.liu.se/c/pikestyle.html) 2021-01-17T18:49:35Z mangol: lol 2021-01-17T18:49:39Z Zipheir: Hah, jinx. 2021-01-17T18:50:01Z mangol: to add to the amusement, pike recently wrote a lisp in go 2021-01-17T18:50:14Z mangol: just for fun because he appreciates lisp 1.5 or something 2021-01-17T18:50:52Z Zipheir: Right. I think the first working example in Go was a cons implementation. 2021-01-17T18:50:59Z mangol: all of the good programmers would love lisp if not for the syntax (macros count as syntax) 2021-01-17T18:52:27Z Zipheir: It begs the question: "What is LISP?" I'm not so sure what makes LISP LISP anymore, although the answer seemed obvious early on. 2021-01-17T18:52:55Z mangol: "What is the Tao?" 2021-01-17T18:53:51Z mangol: the answer to this question is hilarious too: lisp is the quintessential vehicle for bottom-up programming, so lisp is not a goal, it's the starting point. the point is to extend it. 2021-01-17T18:54:02Z mangol: to the extent that lisp is a goal, lisp liek life is what you make of it. 2021-01-17T18:54:39Z mangol: when you ask "what is lisp" you are looking up at the sky, when you should be looking down below you, and more importantly stop looking down and start building 2021-01-17T18:55:20Z mangol: lisp is Lisp Machines, top-end 3D graphics, CPU design on a workstation, the most complete stack of network protocols available on one computer, ... 2021-01-17T18:55:35Z Zipheir: I mean, many things innovated by LISPs have turned out to be more fundamental notions (e.g. the realization that λ-calculus provided a simpler functional model than early Lisps) or notions common to most programming languages (lists, dynamic typing, etc.) 2021-01-17T18:55:36Z mangol: the fastest airfare search engine, the first webstore 2021-01-17T18:56:02Z aeth: mangol: I only write comments when there is something to note, such as a workaround that must be present 2021-01-17T18:56:02Z Zipheir: Hmm. 2021-01-17T18:56:26Z aeth: mangol: Comments are usually best as either (1) docstrings or (2) trivial procedures that describe exactly what they do in their name 2021-01-17T18:56:29Z mangol: aeth: indeed by far the most useful comments are cautions or apologies :D 2021-01-17T18:56:51Z mangol: "if you think this sucks, you are right, because reasons: ..." 2021-01-17T18:57:02Z aeth: If you find yourself documenting different sections of a long procedure, just break it up with each section as its own procedure 2021-01-17T18:57:24Z aeth: The only time comments have to stay is when you think you'll remove some necessary workaround in 5 years after you forget why it's there 2021-01-17T18:57:40Z aeth: Or if you're implementing a tricky algorithm... in this case, it helps to link to the Wikipedia article of the algorithm in a comment. 2021-01-17T18:59:08Z Zipheir: From Linus's C style guide: "Described what something does, NOT how it does it." 2021-01-17T18:59:27Z aeth: Zipheir: Most programming languages don't use linked lists at all. Python even calls an adjustable vector a "list". 2021-01-17T18:59:49Z aeth: I think C's probably the most common not-Lisp to use linked lists because they're a trivial abstraction when you're living in pointerland with few things built-in. 2021-01-17T19:00:01Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:00:02Z mangol: comments have one job that code can never do: they can describe why something _wasn't_ done 2021-01-17T19:01:09Z mangol: we come back to the theme of comments being most useful when they describe bad ideas 2021-01-17T19:01:24Z Zipheir: aeth: (Pythonic heresy) Exactly. Lists were a more fundamental idea which happened to originate (maybe?) in LISPs. 2021-01-17T19:01:29Z mangol: good ideas are already generally known, or if not, you can write a neat blog post about them and link to theat 2021-01-17T19:01:43Z Zipheir: ;; The following is a burrito. 2021-01-17T19:02:33Z Zipheir: aeth: And, as you've noted frequently, lists aren't even a great practical data structure. 2021-01-17T19:03:01Z aeth: mangol: Or write an issue. I self-file bugs that are hard to describe in my own repos as issues. I usually do this *after* the bug has already been fixed, but before commiting the bugfix. Then, there is a "permanent" record of what the bug was and how it was fixed. 2021-01-17T19:03:06Z aeth: Most bugs don't need this, of course. 2021-01-17T19:03:41Z aeth: I could just write a long commit message, but if it's more than a paragraph, it probably belongs in an issue. Nobody's going to read long commit messages, and you can't edit them if there's a mistake. 2021-01-17T19:07:22Z mangol: the SRFI mailing lists work great for a similar purpose 2021-01-17T19:09:28Z mangol: one social engineering hack to counter lispers' innate drive to go their separate ways, is to gather a bunch of people who force themselves to all use the same library collection 2021-01-17T19:09:49Z mangol: where all of the libraries are collectively owned by that group 2021-01-17T19:10:13Z mangol: then you make yearly editions of the APIs or something like that. so you can fix bad design decisions without waiting forever. 2021-01-17T19:10:39Z mdhughes: I can only see that ending in knife fights. 2021-01-17T19:10:55Z mangol: as long as we have the option of always picking a different library, there's no pressure to make one really good library for each job 2021-01-17T19:11:39Z mdhughes: So then everyone just makes their own library again, as they do now. 2021-01-17T19:12:00Z mangol: the key is to get the size of the initial group right 2021-01-17T19:12:15Z mangol: if everyone roughly knows each other, there's social pressure against going one's own way 2021-01-17T19:12:32Z mangol: that group will then produce a good start, and outsiders will see that it's good and be motivated 2021-01-17T19:12:49Z mangol: at that point, maybe slowly start adding more people 2021-01-17T19:13:01Z mangol: carefully controlling the rate of growth is essential 2021-01-17T19:14:36Z mangol: SRFI is already a small-enough group that there's social pressure against filing 3-4 different SRFIs on the same topic 2021-01-17T19:14:39Z Zipheir: It's a good idea. 2021-01-17T19:15:17Z Zipheir: We all know that the easy way is to say "screw that, I'll write my own (maybe, when I have time)". 2021-01-17T19:16:07Z mangol: yeah lisp is like the only social group on the planet where that response is taken seriously :) 2021-01-17T19:16:47Z mangol: except maybe for hardcore libertarians and bikers and people like that 2021-01-17T19:17:02Z Zipheir: Hence the Curse of Lisp idea that the language is expressive enough to make programming problems into social problems. 2021-01-17T19:17:02Z mangol: even punk rockers collaborate a lot. that says something about how extreme we are 2021-01-17T19:17:45Z tatsumaru joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:17:48Z tatsumaru: hey guys 2021-01-17T19:17:54Z mangol: yeah maybe any sufficiently expressive language becomes a magnet for pathological individualists 2021-01-17T19:18:01Z mangol: fucking magnets, how do they work? 2021-01-17T19:18:35Z mangol: hey tatsumaru 2021-01-17T19:18:39Z tatsumaru: I am curious - how much faster it is to write a simple program in a high level language like scheme than to type it directly in binary? 2021-01-17T19:19:50Z mdhughes: If you know ASM well enough, maybe 4-10x faster in HLL. If you haven't been practicing ASM for years, infinitely. 2021-01-17T19:20:21Z mdhughes: I used to bang out small programs in 68000 ASM all the time on the Atari ST, but 68K's the easiest ASM ever made. 2021-01-17T19:20:57Z gioyik_ joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:21:32Z mdhughes: I'm very slowly relearning (last used in 1982?) Z-80 ASM for the SpecNext. It's a struggle after all this time. 2021-01-17T19:22:14Z tatsumaru: mdhughes - does asm have loops or functions 2021-01-17T19:22:27Z mdhughes: No, it has JMP and JSR. 2021-01-17T19:22:47Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: Try writing a program in machine code that computes factorial of n and you'll see. :) 2021-01-17T19:23:16Z mdhughes: It seriously isn't that far down, especially if you know C which is formalized PDP/11 ASM. 2021-01-17T19:23:20Z mangol: some macro assemblers probably have loops. there used to be something called HLA [sic?], high-level assembler 2021-01-17T19:23:30Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T19:23:45Z mangol: so it's like a high-level language but without automatic register allocation and named variables 2021-01-17T19:23:50Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: The obvious question, though, is "which machine code?" 2021-01-17T19:24:04Z mangol: qhasm from dan bernstein even has an experimental register allocater IIRC 2021-01-17T19:24:18Z mdhughes: What you want is Usborne's Machine Code for Beginners: https://usborne.com/books/computer-and-coding-books 2021-01-17T19:24:32Z tatsumaru: is it possible to type in actual binary, not even asm? just the 1s and 0s? 2021-01-17T19:25:36Z mangol: you can write a C or Scheme program into which you can type 1's and 0's. the program gathers them into bytes (each byte is 8 bits) and writes the bytes to a file 2021-01-17T19:25:43Z Zipheir: The "actual binary" is high and low voltage. 2021-01-17T19:26:16Z mdhughes: You can use a hex editor to write a file full of binary directly. 2021-01-17T19:26:32Z mangol: memory on computers is fundamentally byte-addressed or word-addressed, not bit-addressed 2021-01-17T19:26:46Z mangol: there are probably no computers that let you write individual bits 2021-01-17T19:26:51Z mdhughes: I don't recommend that, an assembler is *massively* easier. Hand-assembling into bytes and then typing them into a loader (or in the olden times, toggling them on a front panel) is super slow. 2021-01-17T19:27:33Z tatsumaru: I am asking because I am trying to determine if the biotech space is now where the CS field was 70 years ago. essentially they have no leverage to writing genomes and are capable of only writing very tiny genomes of 20k letters or less where the smallest organisms are composed of around ~600k. 2021-01-17T19:27:40Z mdhughes: Front panels were usually in octal, but represented a byte or word at a time. 2021-01-17T19:28:09Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T19:28:47Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:29:52Z Zipheir: Computing was far more advanced in 1950, although computers were of course pretty primitive. 2021-01-17T19:29:53Z mangol: tatsumaru: very interesting comparison! 2021-01-17T19:30:12Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-17T19:30:34Z mangol: i'm under the impression that the genome has a lot of repetition and "junk" 2021-01-17T19:30:54Z mangol: ...completely unlike the software we write for computers xD 2021-01-17T19:31:52Z tatsumaru: hehe 2021-01-17T19:32:18Z tatsumaru: it's 4 letters arranged in different combinations 2021-01-17T19:33:49Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-17T19:33:56Z tatsumaru: Zipheir, true, actually Touring helped crack the German codes during the WWII so I am assuming the high voltage/low voltage computers first appeared around the 40s 2021-01-17T19:34:25Z mangol: with luck, there are some biologically inspired languages in here: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 2021-01-17T19:35:09Z tatsumaru: mangol there is actually proof of concept for primitive biological computer at the moment 2021-01-17T19:35:22Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: What I mean is that there has always been more to CS than getting machines to do thing. 2021-01-17T19:35:26Z Zipheir: things, even. 2021-01-17T19:35:31Z mangol: tatsumaru: as in, a turing-complete computer? 2021-01-17T19:36:43Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: We're still trying to figure out the implications of what Turing and Church discovered without any digital computers at all. 2021-01-17T19:36:57Z mangol: http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html -- these lists are always hilarious 2021-01-17T19:37:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:37:21Z tatsumaru: mangol, I am not sure, they can do binary logic and math calculations for sure. 2021-01-17T19:38:11Z tatsumaru: Did you know that computer used to be a profession back in the old days? 2021-01-17T19:38:20Z Zipheir: Indeed so. 2021-01-17T19:38:38Z tatsumaru: so biological computers are actually pretty old 2021-01-17T19:38:45Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-17T19:39:07Z Zipheir: As old as the universe, which (Church-Turing thesis still holding) is itself a computer. 2021-01-17T19:39:57Z tatsumaru: What is the universe computing? 2021-01-17T19:40:01Z mangol: the x86 MOV instruction is apparently turing complete. 2021-01-17T19:40:03Z mangol: "movfuscator, the single instruction C compiler. Building on this, there is a branchless, mov-only version of the classic DOOM video game." 2021-01-17T19:40:51Z jcowan: tatsumaru: 42, of course 2021-01-17T19:40:57Z tatsumaru: I wonder if Church/Turing would've been into simulation theory 2021-01-17T19:41:37Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T19:41:44Z jcowan: Unix is older than either B or C. The transition from B to C was driven by (a) the ability to run bigger compilers (b) the fact that B couldn't deal with byte machines very well 2021-01-17T19:41:54Z mangol: the simulation hypothesis is not really about computers but about consciousness. the computer aspect is relatively trivial 2021-01-17T19:42:24Z mangol: well, about consciousness, the origin of the universe, and whether it's finite or infinite 2021-01-17T19:42:58Z mangol: the computer aspect boils down to "imagine a really big computer programmer by really smart beings" 2021-01-17T19:43:11Z jcowan: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? 2021-01-17T19:43:22Z mangol: 42? 2021-01-17T19:43:43Z tatsumaru: the answer is true 2021-01-17T19:43:47Z Zipheir: Similarly, the materialist version of the Church-Turing thesis isn't some kind of Matrix Reloaded cosmology. It's relatively mundane. "We can compute the velocity of a falling object near the surface of the Earth on the universe." 2021-01-17T19:44:48Z tatsumaru: aren't quantum computers pretty close to computing stuff on the universe? 2021-01-17T19:45:14Z Zipheir: Yes, but so are "normal" computers, and so are abacuses (abaci?) 2021-01-17T19:45:28Z Riastradh: abageese 2021-01-17T19:45:47Z mangol: according to the simulation hypothesis, what we perceive as the universe can in principle be entirely controlled by whoever programmed the simulation 2021-01-17T19:46:13Z mangol: so it's about nested universes, and not much can be known about the outer ones by looking at the innermost ones 2021-01-17T19:46:14Z Zipheir: That's just Berkeley. 2021-01-17T19:46:19Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:46:33Z jcowan: mangol: a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference 2021-01-17T19:46:54Z tatsumaru: can each of us be in their own simulation while simultaneously being in contact with each other? 2021-01-17T19:47:06Z Zipheir: Berkeley, again. 2021-01-17T19:47:19Z mangol: tatsumaru: in a sense, has to be 2021-01-17T19:47:23Z jcowan: Zipheir: Both plurals are in use 2021-01-17T19:47:35Z mangol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley this guy? 2021-01-17T19:48:06Z Zipheir: Funny story: I actually visited George Berkeley's tomb in Cloyne. (A) No-one in town knew who he was, (B) the pub owner had the key to the building and had to be found to let us in. 2021-01-17T19:48:25Z Zipheir: Yup. 2021-01-17T19:48:30Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:48:49Z mangol: Zipheir: Riastradh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPRvc2UMeMI "everything since the abacus, just a bunch of crap" 2021-01-17T19:49:55Z mangol: that is a funny story 2021-01-17T19:50:36Z mangol: jcowan: 42 angels? imperial or metric pin? 2021-01-17T19:51:15Z tatsumaru: maybe the angels were thinner back then 2021-01-17T19:51:37Z jcowan: It doesn't matter: the question is, is the number finite or infinite? In other words, does Turing-computability require a material substrate? 2021-01-17T19:51:57Z Zipheir: Despite being the canonical example of pointless Medieval philosophical problems, it's actually part of one of the first serious discussions of infinite sets. 2021-01-17T19:52:05Z mangol: are angels material or immaterial? is the question? 2021-01-17T19:52:08Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:52:32Z mangol: and if it's material, is it elementary? 2021-01-17T19:52:52Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:52:58Z tatsumaru: Henri Poincare said - "Geometry is not true, it is advantageous." 2021-01-17T19:53:42Z mangol: the attitude of a winner 2021-01-17T19:53:51Z tatsumaru: Personally I think the universe isn't comprised of dot products 2021-01-17T19:54:06Z tatsumaru: and set theory isn't true, just advantageous 2021-01-17T19:54:18Z tatsumaru: then again i am a fucking nobody 2021-01-17T19:54:54Z mangol: the trick with math and other deeply academic subjects is to start by reducing the universe to concepts you know how to talk about 2021-01-17T19:55:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:55:21Z mangol: and then sound so impressive that nobody who realizes you're doing that dares to speak up 2021-01-17T19:55:49Z tatsumaru: are you encouraging demagoguery 2021-01-17T19:55:50Z mangol: almost all debates are about framing the debate, not about the arguments in the debate 2021-01-17T19:55:53Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T19:56:15Z Zipheir: Reminds me of this book, which looks really good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_Made_Difficult 2021-01-17T19:56:18Z mangol: i didn't know i can do that, but if so, hell yes! 2021-01-17T19:56:30Z tatsumaru: imo the trick to a successful debate is just to call the other party racist first 2021-01-17T19:57:08Z mangol: :D 2021-01-17T19:57:13Z Zipheir: That's how to become a successful Godwin troll. 2021-01-17T19:57:20Z mangol: Godwin is best win. 2021-01-17T19:57:29Z tatsumaru: Who is Godwin? 2021-01-17T19:57:43Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-17T19:58:05Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law 2021-01-17T19:58:15Z Riastradh: Zipheir: it is the best book 2021-01-17T19:58:26Z mangol: apart from being a guy who has an optimal surname, yes, that one 2021-01-17T19:58:33Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Cool! 2021-01-17T19:59:09Z tatsumaru: mangol I think Godmode would've been a notch cooler 2021-01-17T19:59:52Z mangol: your mode against my win. fight! 2021-01-17T20:00:09Z tatsumaru: Speaking of Godwin, I am curious how long it would take people to start naming their kids Adolf again 2021-01-17T20:03:36Z Zipheir: Probably best to turn the topic back to Scheme, now. 2021-01-17T20:04:06Z mangol: did you just invoke Godwin transitively? whoa, it works! 2021-01-17T20:23:00Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T20:23:33Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-01-17T20:29:37Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-17T20:39:03Z mangol: well, that escalated quickly and the power of the law was proven. any scheme topics? 2021-01-17T20:40:09Z mangol: if anyone is good at the C API to one or more of these compression libraries: bzip2, gzip, lzma, zstd, i could use some help wrapping them 2021-01-17T20:40:32Z tatsumaru left #scheme 2021-01-17T20:41:49Z mangol: huh i tried to send him a PM to not worry about it but he already quit 2021-01-17T20:45:14Z mangol: anyway. only 6 monthsf until summer. ice cream tastes good and sunshine is the best source of vitamin D. are labrador puppies the cutest puppies? 2021-01-17T20:58:23Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-17T20:58:54Z seepel1 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-17T20:59:43Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-17T20:59:58Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-01-17T21:00:38Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T21:02:14Z skapate is now known as skapata 2021-01-17T21:03:53Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-17T21:10:17Z amerigo joined #scheme 2021-01-17T21:27:56Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-17T21:28:43Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:04:34Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T22:05:15Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:07:00Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-17T22:07:19Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:08:56Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T22:09:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:16:31Z hendursaga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-17T22:16:31Z tryte quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-17T22:16:31Z cantstanya quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-17T22:16:31Z ZombieChicken quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-17T22:16:31Z xelxebar quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-17T22:16:31Z madage quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-17T22:18:20Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-17T22:22:42Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:22:57Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:24:59Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:27:54Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:28:12Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:28:20Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:29:08Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-17T22:29:47Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:35:02Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T22:36:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-17T22:48:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-17T22:59:14Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-17T23:04:09Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-17T23:06:19Z miasuji quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-17T23:11:18Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T23:11:37Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-17T23:12:14Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-17T23:13:26Z miasuji quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-17T23:17:34Z dieggsy: are SRFI documents written directly in HTML ? is there like a markdown source or some other format i can find? 2021-01-17T23:17:38Z dieggsy: for example for srfi-179 2021-01-17T23:22:04Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-17T23:22:31Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-17T23:22:55Z Zipheir: The HTML is canonical, I think. I wonder why they've never used a text document as a basis, as the RFC process does. 2021-01-17T23:24:11Z siiky: dieggsy: i think i remember jcowan mentioning once he uses pandoc to convert from MD; but maybe it was to get an initial document quickly? 2021-01-17T23:24:25Z mangol: SRFIs must be submitted in HTML format, though many authors use some other format (Markdown, AsciiDoc, Skribe/Scribble, etc.) to prepare the initial draft 2021-01-17T23:25:10Z mangol: after the draft is in, edits are usually made directly to the HTML file (though even that isn't a requirement, provided the author does the work to convert from his chosen format to HTML) 2021-01-17T23:25:52Z mangol: the main point of these rules is that the SRFI editor is quite a busy person, so it's guaranteed that HTML is the only format he has to deal with 2021-01-17T23:26:10Z mangol: and anything else is authors' personal worry 2021-01-17T23:26:38Z mangol: we had a big discussion in 2019 about formats, and people suggested about 10 different ones :) which illustrates why we stuck with HTML 2021-01-17T23:27:20Z mangol: as for why HTML and not plain text like RFCs, the RFC process was started at a time when plain text (using US ASCII) was the only portable format around 2021-01-17T23:27:36Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-17T23:27:41Z mangol: whereas the SRFI process was started in 1998 when HTML was the format in vogue and widely supported 2021-01-17T23:29:12Z mangol: i guess SRFI could have chosen LaTeX, but SRFIs were primarily published on the web and LaTeX is a bit of a hassle for that 2021-01-17T23:29:13Z Zipheir: ASCII text remains the single most portable format on the planet. UTF-8 is pretty close to universally portable, as well. 2021-01-17T23:30:13Z dieggsy: heh, agreed 2021-01-17T23:32:02Z jcowan: I would say that a document profile of HTML is pretty portable too. SRFIs were originally supposed to conform to HTML 3.2, but some later features are in use here and there. 2021-01-17T23:32:33Z mangol: as a practical matter, the https://github.com/pre-srfi repos (which are all unofficial, not endorsed by the SRFI process) mostly use Markdown and AsciiDoc 2021-01-17T23:33:57Z Zipheir: That's fine, as long as it's readable as text (unlike some of the spaghetti-Markdown with 240-char lines that one sometimes finds on GitHub). 2021-01-17T23:33:58Z mangol: HTML is also easy to convert to other formats if we stick to a page layout resembling a paper document 2021-01-17T23:34:45Z mangol: this question is quite analogous to why Knuth writes TAOCP in assembly language :) he says it's because every decade a new HLL is en vogue 2021-01-17T23:35:06Z mangol: so he'd have to rewrite the code every few years 2021-01-17T23:35:29Z Zipheir: Quite true. 2021-01-17T23:35:40Z Zipheir: Much like SICP's choice of Scheme. 2021-01-17T23:35:53Z mangol: good point 2021-01-17T23:36:14Z mangol: i wonder if continuations are in TAOCP :D coroutines are for sure 2021-01-17T23:41:43Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-17T23:47:19Z aeth: XHTML is the portable one 2021-01-17T23:48:30Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-17T23:51:17Z mangol: the SRFI process no longer mandates any particular version of HTML. HTML5 is mostly used for new ones 2021-01-17T23:51:44Z mangol: it could be useful to define a subset of XHTML to which SRFI authors can optionally conform for typical SRFIs that don't require fancy formatting 2021-01-17T23:52:13Z mangol: would be easier to parse and convert to other formats, as you indicate 2021-01-17T23:52:17Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-17T23:52:27Z Riastradh: sroffi 2021-01-17T23:56:42Z euandreh quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-17T23:57:09Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-17T23:57:26Z mangol: scheme macros for roff? roff macros for scheme? 2021-01-17T23:58:42Z mangol: unix has two utilities named after dogs. biff and roff. at least i like to imagine the latter is onomatopoetic 2021-01-18T00:03:08Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T00:07:44Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-18T00:16:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T00:21:08Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T00:22:11Z euandreh quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-18T00:23:04Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T00:23:43Z euandreh quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-18T00:24:34Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T00:25:46Z euandreh quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-18T00:25:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T00:28:04Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T00:29:32Z euandreh quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-18T00:29:56Z sp1ff` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T00:30:03Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T00:37:58Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-18T00:38:24Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T00:38:43Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-18T00:50:19Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T00:57:02Z Zenton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T00:59:55Z Zenton joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:03:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:12:47Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T01:12:48Z aeth: Maybe XHTML 5? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5#XHTML_5_(XML-serialized_HTML_5) 2021-01-18T01:13:00Z aeth: Just HTML 5 that XML parsers can parse. 2021-01-18T01:13:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:18:51Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T01:19:36Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:22:12Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T01:24:34Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:28:11Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T01:28:37Z sp1ff joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:28:40Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-18T01:31:47Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:34:36Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:36:26Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T01:39:37Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:39:38Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T01:42:41Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:43:00Z daviid is now known as Guest39344 2021-01-18T01:44:03Z Guest39344 is now known as daviid 2021-01-18T01:44:26Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-18T01:44:34Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:47:24Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T01:49:34Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T01:49:34Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T01:54:37Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:00:40Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T02:02:22Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:05:01Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T02:05:40Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:08:11Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-18T02:09:58Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:11:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:11:25Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T02:16:04Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:17:00Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:17:37Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:18:07Z dieggsy: it occurs to me that srfi-179 doesn't have an easy way of making specialized arrays immutable 2021-01-18T02:18:10Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:18:21Z lloda` joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:18:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:18:40Z gabot joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:18:41Z Oxyd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T02:18:45Z belmarca95 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T02:18:52Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:18:53Z manumanumanu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:18:53Z Oxyd_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:19:02Z dieggsy: in the ref implementation even setting (specialized-array-default-mutable? #f) doesn't mean that (make-specialized-array ...) results in an immutable array 2021-01-18T02:19:03Z belmarca95 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:19:14Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:19:14Z lloda quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:19:17Z dieggsy: and in fact, it seems that parameter is only used for array-copy and list->array 2021-01-18T02:19:25Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:19:41Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T02:19:50Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:20:01Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T02:20:18Z dieggsy: maybe this is just a bug in the reference implementation thuogh 2021-01-18T02:20:22Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:20:31Z Oxyd_ quit (Changing host) 2021-01-18T02:20:31Z Oxyd_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:20:33Z Oxyd_ is now known as Oxyd 2021-01-18T02:20:34Z copec joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:20:45Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:21:04Z snits joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:21:42Z dieggsy: still, it's odd that even in the spec make-specialized-array doesn't have mutable? as a parameter, since it does have safe? as one 2021-01-18T02:22:22Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:25:13Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:25:49Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T02:27:19Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2021-01-18T02:29:09Z miasuji joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:29:37Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T02:30:10Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:33:08Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T02:35:12Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:36:04Z livoreno joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:36:04Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T02:39:28Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-18T02:40:15Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:41:01Z choas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T02:41:09Z hugh_marera quit (K-Lined) 2021-01-18T02:45:13Z choas joined #scheme 2021-01-18T02:57:35Z jcowan: Immutable specialized arrays didn't exist in SRFI 122, so the spec and/or code might not have been fully updated. 2021-01-18T02:58:39Z jcowan: You can use array-map with the identity function, though, because the result of array-map is always immutable. 2021-01-18T03:00:53Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T03:00:58Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-18T03:01:23Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-18T03:06:13Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T03:06:57Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-18T03:18:41Z dieggsy: jcowan: i may just add a mutable? parameter to make-specialized array for the chicken implementation 2021-01-18T03:19:59Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T03:20:17Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T03:22:09Z Oxyd_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T03:22:10Z livoreno quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T03:22:10Z Oxyd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T03:22:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T03:22:54Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T03:25:03Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-18T03:25:37Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T03:28:44Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T03:29:37Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-18T03:29:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T03:37:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T03:52:11Z lockywolf: recent html is a giant mess 2021-01-18T03:53:56Z lockywolf: it would be possible to write an xml schema (or whatever the correct name for that? dtd? relax-ng?) that would let the editor to check if the (x)html file is only using the allowed constructs 2021-01-18T03:54:09Z lockywolf: but it's a huge work 2021-01-18T03:57:41Z lockywolf: I do not see a problem with 240-char lines, I use autowrapping, and see no problem with that. Emacs becomes slow with too many too long lines, but what is "too", I do not remember. Lines ~360 chars long seem still okay. 2021-01-18T03:58:19Z lockywolf: Hard-wrapped text looks ugly on anything that is not a desktop computer. 2021-01-18T04:00:31Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-18T04:04:25Z Zipheir: Autowrapping is probably the only workable compromise, but that adds complexity, and editing unwrapped longlines sucks (lots of intraline searching). Everyone should set their device to handle at least 80 columns, for sanity. 2021-01-18T04:05:26Z Zipheir: And certainly hard-wrapped text looks just fine on even the smallest laptops. It's just phones and similar devices that have difficulty. 2021-01-18T04:07:08Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T04:09:31Z Zipheir: And are we not already fed up with pandering to mobile devices? 2021-01-18T04:11:19Z siraben: when I need to read hard-wrapped text on mobile I put it to landscape 2021-01-18T04:11:51Z aeth: Zipheir: somewhere fuzzy between 80-120 seems to be the way to go for text. You can't have it too wide because then you can only show one file at a time 2021-01-18T04:12:51Z aeth: And that's enough for mobile, too, if you can set the font small and have good eyes. Probably landscape, though. 2021-01-18T04:13:52Z Zipheir: Agreed. 2021-01-18T04:17:03Z aeth: On the web it's a bit annoying because they'll never let the font get small enough even if it's still perfectly legible much smaller. 2021-01-18T04:17:10Z aeth: Sometimes you can get away with forcing the desktop site to make it a bit smaller. 2021-01-18T04:18:25Z Zipheir: As soon as fancy pages figure out it's a mobile browser, they go bonkers trying to optimize everything to look good. Thus breaking whatever working setup you have, of course. 2021-01-18T04:19:03Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-18T04:19:13Z Riastradh: text blocks wider than about 70 characters are bad 2021-01-18T04:19:52Z aeth: 70 characters doesn't give you enough room to do very, very basic things if you use meaningful-variable-names 2021-01-18T04:20:18Z Riastradh: `text blocks', as in prose, not code 2021-01-18T04:21:12Z Riastradh: (code may be indented, but wider than 80 columns monospace is still bad, since it interferes with having multiple columns side by side) 2021-01-18T04:21:17Z Zipheir: 70 is a good, readable limit for code as well, to my eyes, with 80 being a nice maximum. 2021-01-18T04:24:32Z Zipheir: If the format means the text is going to be reflowed on display, then anything goes, provided you can edit it sanely. 2021-01-18T04:29:46Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T04:58:47Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-18T05:18:39Z gioyik_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-18T05:27:45Z zmv joined #scheme 2021-01-18T05:53:22Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T05:54:25Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-18T05:54:30Z lockywolf: readable limit has nothing to do with line length 2021-01-18T05:55:02Z lockywolf: autowrapping means the user is to define the readable limit 2021-01-18T05:55:23Z lockywolf: by selecting the window width 2021-01-18T05:56:17Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T05:56:21Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-18T05:56:22Z lockywolf: saying "hard-wrapped text looks just fine on even smallest laptops" means saying "I do not use Screen or tmux, and I do not care if other people do" 2021-01-18T05:56:50Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-18T05:57:25Z lockywolf: it also means "I don't give a sh*t about your short-sightedness and your font size, go buy yourself better glasses" 2021-01-18T05:58:11Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T06:03:28Z Zipheir: That is a legitimate concern. 2021-01-18T06:04:13Z Zipheir: But unwrapped text is very difficult to edit (and possibly to read) without autowrapping software. 2021-01-18T06:05:34Z Zipheir: So, conversely, one can consider that sloppy and inconsiderate, as well. The truth is that it's difficult to ensure anything, even plain text, will look acceptable to everyone on every device. 2021-01-18T06:10:42Z aeth: I use many different screens and many different sizes. With both terminals and graphical emacs, I very frequently zoom in/out the font size and change my viewing distance. 2021-01-18T06:11:03Z aeth: 80-120 characters is fine unless you're on a phone, especially on a phone in portrait. 2021-01-18T06:11:31Z aeth: And my phone's old so it's small by modern standards. 2021-01-18T06:12:07Z Zipheir: Most autowrapping on natural language prose is also totally inadequate. 2021-01-18T06:13:09Z Zipheir: Correct handling requires some sort of markup language, e.g. to correctly indent lists, blockquotes, etc. Basic fold(1) or fmt(1) style wrapping isn't sufficient. 2021-01-18T06:14:18Z aeth: natural text, yeah, 60-70 is better but just don't do it on the web because more people than you think will use phones 2021-01-18T06:14:58Z Zipheir: So yes, 80-or-so-column text is still the lowest common denominator, since plenty of devices don't have programs with excellent prose-pretty-printing. 2021-01-18T06:16:43Z Zipheir: aeth: Well, with HTML, everything not blockquoted is going to be reflowed, so source formatting isn't very important. 2021-01-18T06:18:02Z ZombieChicken: wrt source code formatting, ideally you'd put a function on a single line and when it is read into the editor, it could do the autoindenting however the users wants 2021-01-18T06:18:17Z ZombieChicken: then save it back as a line per function 2021-01-18T06:18:30Z lockywolf: Correctness and beauty are important, but secondary to readability. 2021-01-18T06:20:04Z lockywolf: And making hard-wrapped text unreadable is easy. 2021-01-18T06:20:50Z Zipheir: ZombieChicken: A good solution, if there were some well-known cross-editor standard for formatting metadat. 2021-01-18T06:20:54Z Zipheir: metadata, even. 2021-01-18T06:21:04Z lockywolf: That is, make this: https://imgur.com/D3Y0fwk.png 2021-01-18T06:21:55Z Zipheir: ZombieChicken: As it stands, most such instructions are Emacs- or Vim-specific, and thus noise for other editors/readers/whatever. 2021-01-18T06:22:00Z ZombieChicken: Zipheir: If we're talking about the various Lisp and formatting them, then I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult. Something like Python, C, etc would be another issue, to be sure 2021-01-18T06:22:01Z lockywolf: Would you tell me "this window is too small"? 2021-01-18T06:22:31Z ZombieChicken: lockywolf: I've had software do that if the terminal was less than 80x24 2021-01-18T06:22:37Z Zipheir: It's clearly man output. 2021-01-18T06:23:03Z lockywolf: terminal is less than 80-wide in, like, 50% of the case 2021-01-18T06:23:10Z Zipheir: The whole idea of the man command is to correctly format the troff input. So the creator of that screenshot needs a different man command, is all. 2021-01-18T06:24:36Z Zipheir: ZombieChicken: I think we're more talking about prose at this point. 2021-01-18T06:24:56Z Zipheir: I don't know if anyone wants long-line, autowrapped Lisp. 2021-01-18T06:24:59Z lockywolf: the whole idea of autowrapping is to abstract away this problem entirely 2021-01-18T06:25:13Z lockywolf: so that the concrete command in unimportant 2021-01-18T06:29:03Z Zipheir: To do this, you need a well-known lightweight markup language with formatting support from a wide array of editors and other software. And you have to be willing to reduce the usefulness of line-oriented tools (grep, sed, awk, etc.) 2021-01-18T06:29:37Z Zipheir: (This is something that really sucks about unwrapped text. grep for anything, and you get a flood of text.) 2021-01-18T06:30:03Z Zipheir: (Structural regexes in grep might fix this.) 2021-01-18T06:33:26Z aeth: If I have unwrapped text, and I can modify it, then I normally just format it in Emacs. I guess that's somewhere between 60 and 80 characters per line. 2021-01-18T06:43:48Z Zipheir: It would be an interesting exercise to come up with non-line-oriented versions of the UNIX coreutils. 2021-01-18T06:44:30Z siraben: Zipheir: have you seen jq? 2021-01-18T06:44:45Z siraben: it allows for CLI queries over JSON data 2021-01-18T06:44:49Z Zipheir: Nope. 2021-01-18T06:45:14Z siraben: cat uclaclubs.json | jq '.orgList | map(.OrganizationName)' | less 2021-01-18T06:45:23Z siraben: something like that 2021-01-18T06:45:33Z Zipheir: That's clever. 2021-01-18T06:45:54Z siraben: Of course in the general case, Haskellers know and love these as lenses 2021-01-18T06:46:20Z aeth: Of course in the general case, shell scripters know and love these as | 2021-01-18T06:49:44Z siraben: the power is in the dot/pipe :P 2021-01-18T06:51:38Z Zipheir: I wonder if ".pipe" is an available TLD... If so, that would be perfect for a functional shell language. 2021-01-18T06:56:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T06:56:21Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-18T07:06:14Z ZombieChicken quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-18T07:07:41Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-18T07:33:49Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-18T07:44:02Z lockywolf: line-oriented tools are largely not for human languages 2021-01-18T07:52:08Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-18T07:54:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T07:57:38Z Zipheir: I use them constantly for English text. 2021-01-18T07:59:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T08:00:47Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T08:01:04Z Zipheir: But, again, line-orientation could be seen as a choice of convenience for grep, comm, cut, and many other programs. It's more deeply integrated in sed (because ed is a line editor). 2021-01-18T08:01:38Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-18T08:02:57Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-18T08:03:14Z daviid is now known as Guest7891 2021-01-18T08:03:18Z Zipheir: Regardless of the wrapping situation in the future, we should be able to pipe, filter, and mangle text with dozens of different tools in a composable way. 2021-01-18T08:03:59Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T08:08:23Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-18T08:09:30Z aeth: grep's great for IRC logs because they're line-oriented 2021-01-18T08:09:46Z Zipheir: It's fairly clear that the UNIX creators intended the "coreutils" for use on files containing, among other things, natural language text. (_The UNIX Programming Environment_ contains many such suggestions.) Why have a "word count" program (wc) for programming languages? 2021-01-18T08:10:30Z Guest7891 is now known as daviid 2021-01-18T08:10:33Z aeth: for wc -l 2021-01-18T08:10:38Z aeth: :-p 2021-01-18T08:11:03Z Zipheir: Heh, of course. 2021-01-18T08:11:47Z siraben: Zipheir: unix tools are quite poor for text files written in other languages 2021-01-18T08:11:49Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-18T08:12:43Z Zipheir: Due to uneven Unicode support, or deeper design issues? 2021-01-18T08:13:17Z siraben: > echo "สวัสดี" | rev 2021-01-18T08:13:18Z siraben: ีดสัวส 2021-01-18T08:13:58Z siraben: because it's working over bytes essentially 2021-01-18T08:14:12Z Zipheir: That looks correct, though. 2021-01-18T08:14:27Z siraben: hm maybe not that example, OK here's one that came up recently 2021-01-18T08:14:36Z siraben: wrapping every line with [ and ] and the start and end respectively 2021-01-18T08:14:46Z siraben: so hello => [hello] and so on 2021-01-18T08:14:56Z Zipheir: A Unicode-compliant rev should operate on codepoints, of course. 2021-01-18T08:15:21Z siraben: btw it's correct but ี doesn't make sense on its own, it's like a raw vowel 2021-01-18T08:16:06Z Zipheir: Well, we'll have a bit of work making rev(1) aware of Thai morphology. :) 2021-01-18T08:16:24Z siraben: So I did `sed -E 's/(.*)/\[\1\]/' foo.txt` but it dropped tone markers 2021-01-18T08:16:59Z Zipheir: GNU sed? 2021-01-18T08:17:37Z Zipheir: Weird. Maybe they have issues with combining characters? 2021-01-18T08:19:45Z siraben: Yeah, GNU sed. 2021-01-18T08:21:37Z siraben: Perhaps. But I'd hypothesize the same issue would occur with Devanagari, say. 2021-01-18T08:23:49Z Zipheir: The more parochial sed 's/^/]/;s/$/]/' might work better. 2021-01-18T08:25:41Z Zipheir: The deeper issue may be that not a lot of programmers are working hard on making core CLI utilities handle this kind of text correctly. 2021-01-18T08:28:03Z Zipheir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T08:29:21Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-01-18T08:29:22Z Zipheir: Oops, sed 's/^/[/;s/$/]/' 2021-01-18T08:33:08Z siraben: Right 2021-01-18T08:43:45Z amirouche: yo 2021-01-18T08:53:03Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T08:54:41Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T08:57:54Z lockywolf: For English text, what is the _meaning_ of line breaks? When I had my English classes at school, English text was conventionally broken down into sentences with periods, not line breaks. 2021-01-18T08:59:05Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T09:00:40Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T09:06:32Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T09:09:19Z mdhughes: In English poetry, the line is the semantic unit, not a "sentence" which they don't usually have. 2021-01-18T09:09:26Z ZombieChicken: lockywolf: So no one ever told you that when you reach the end of a piece of paper midword, you're supposed to put in a hyphen and continue the word on the next line? 2021-01-18T09:09:34Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-18T09:11:07Z mdhughes: But the form of input in UNIX utils is based on what you can enter with punch cards or teletype, which was initially limited to 72 and later 80 ASCII chars. 2021-01-18T09:11:49Z mdhughes: That some also accept long lines (which is awkward to support in C; you need to allocate a long line buffer, or do it in parts) is a recent kindness. 2021-01-18T09:12:46Z mdhughes: That any support UTF-8 is either coincidental (didn't filter out or use high-bit chars for controls) or recent work. 2021-01-18T09:14:34Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T09:14:49Z mdhughes: As a Human-like reader, I'd prefer to never see code over 80 columns, but when I'm editing I have that as a soft margin, actually goes out to 100 or 120 before wrapping, and then sometimes I go back and reformat it to 80. 2021-01-18T09:14:56Z foof: I actually forget what the problem with tex2html on the R7RS source was. As I recall the output was somewhat garbled but not completely unusable. 2021-01-18T09:15:18Z foof: Easy enough to just run it and check. 2021-01-18T09:15:23Z mdhughes: And since I use 4-space tabs for display, every indent is significant, so I'm forced to do the right thing: Move inner expressions into their own functions. 2021-01-18T09:15:41Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T09:15:59Z foof: (it was nothing so simple as broken links or I would have just fixed them) 2021-01-18T09:41:25Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-18T09:43:28Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T09:53:14Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-18T09:55:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T09:56:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T09:57:38Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-18T09:59:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T10:05:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T10:06:13Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-18T10:12:22Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-18T10:36:08Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-18T10:37:53Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-18T10:41:14Z Oxyd_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-18T10:43:12Z Oxyd joined #scheme 2021-01-18T10:51:31Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-18T11:03:51Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T11:05:39Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-18T11:12:16Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T11:19:41Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-18T11:37:48Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-18T11:56:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:00:55Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T12:07:47Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-18T12:08:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T12:09:26Z even4void joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:10:08Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:11:21Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:13:26Z notzmv` joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:14:29Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T12:45:04Z fgudin_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-18T12:45:33Z fgudin_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:48:09Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Quit: Gone.) 2021-01-18T12:48:32Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:55:36Z hive-mind quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-18T12:56:00Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z euandreh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z manumanumanu quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z skapata quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z lockywolf quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z m1dnight1 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z elflng quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z [d] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z _anb quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z codingquark quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z jackhill quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z titanbiscuit quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:30Z brettgilio quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:31Z dieggsy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:31Z wasamasa quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:56:31Z ohama quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z m1dnight1 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z _anb joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z codingquark joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z jackhill joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z titanbiscuit joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z brettgilio joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z ohama joined #scheme 2021-01-18T12:59:11Z wasamasa joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:02:42Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:02:56Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:02:56Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:02:57Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:03:09Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:03:39Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:03:45Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:04:55Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:05:47Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:18:24Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:19:17Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:24:16Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:31:04Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:34:42Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:34:42Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:35:05Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:35:20Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:40:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:44:43Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T13:54:20Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:54:32Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:56:28Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:57:15Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-18T13:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T13:58:22Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:01:10Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:03:19Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:05:02Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:05:05Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:05:07Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:06:46Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-18T14:08:42Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:09:00Z lockywolf quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-18T14:09:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:09:49Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:12:42Z notzmv`` joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:12:55Z zmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T14:13:41Z notzmv` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-18T14:15:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T14:16:57Z lockywolf quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-18T14:17:47Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:22:25Z gnomon_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:22:35Z gnomon_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-18T14:24:55Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T14:26:14Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:30:40Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-18T14:32:01Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T14:32:45Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:33:00Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:33:50Z even4void left #scheme 2021-01-18T14:34:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:39:13Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T14:39:58Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:49:01Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:49:16Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T14:52:29Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:53:27Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T14:54:52Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T14:55:21Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:56:11Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T14:58:20Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:04:26Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:05:44Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:07:27Z notzmv`` is now known as notzmv 2021-01-18T15:07:42Z notzmv quit (Changing host) 2021-01-18T15:07:42Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:13:14Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T15:13:38Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:15:46Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:16:54Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:19:38Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:21:28Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:22:48Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:23:19Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:29:08Z jcowan: dieggsy: Let's see if we can get the SRFI 179 problem fixed at the source. 2021-01-18T15:29:11Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:31:48Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:32:19Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:33:15Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:39:34Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:40:25Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:45:49Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:46:39Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:52:26Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:53:23Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T15:57:36Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T15:59:12Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:04:30Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T16:05:21Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:07:54Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T16:09:29Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:10:30Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-18T16:17:29Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:21:13Z jcowan: mdhughes: Per contra, UTF-8 was designed so that most Unix utilities (well, technically Plan 9 utilities) would work on it without change. 2021-01-18T16:23:24Z mdhughes: Except that's not true for a lot of them. cut, rev, anything that refers to individual chars is nonsense in UTF-8. 2021-01-18T16:23:37Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T16:24:14Z mdhughes: line-oriented functions work fine. Some regex work, some are nonsense. 2021-01-18T16:24:33Z gwatt: I thought the point of utf-8 was to be a superset of ASCII so that all the existing ASCII files / bytestreams / etc would continue to work under UTF-8 without the program having to sniff the bytes to figure out the encoding 2021-01-18T16:24:36Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:24:46Z smazga quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-18T16:25:15Z mdhughes: Sure, but now how do you tell a UTF-8 document from latin-1, cp-1252, or Mac Roman? 2021-01-18T16:25:52Z tdammers: utf-8 is a superset of ascii, but not of any 8-bit encoding 2021-01-18T16:25:59Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T16:26:07Z mdhughes: I give MS shit for putting UTF-8 BOM at the start of all files they touch with most of their tools, but it's not a *stupid* idea, just arrogant to think anyone would handle it. 2021-01-18T16:26:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:27:53Z jcowan: Per the Plan 9 UTF-8 paper, of 170 utilities shipped with Plan 9, only 23 needed conversion. 2021-01-18T16:28:08Z mdhughes: And lately in Chez I've been explicitly opening my text streams with UTF-8 encoding, so I get reasonable errors on not-UTF-8 files, which I have many of. 2021-01-18T16:28:16Z gwatt: jcowan: that's pretty impressive 2021-01-18T16:28:54Z jcowan: More precisely, only 23 needed the type 'wide character' (spelled 'Rune' on Plan 9) 2021-01-18T16:29:34Z gwatt: mdhughes: If you don't specify an encoding does the system detect the correct file type? 2021-01-18T16:30:11Z mdhughes: Not really. Depends on what bytes it runs into before it errors or just gives you garbage. 2021-01-18T16:30:13Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T16:30:28Z gwatt: ah, the best kind of failures 2021-01-18T16:30:59Z jcowan: That's only heuristically possible. Any arbitrary binary file *might* be in Latin-n for any n. 2021-01-18T16:31:42Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T16:31:48Z jcowan: The encoding I'm using here on IRC tries to interpret input as UTF-8, and if it can't (very rarely) it falls back to Latin-1. 2021-01-18T16:32:22Z jcowan: that is, input received from the network, not from me 2021-01-18T16:32:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:34:41Z tdammers: in general, guesstimating the encoding is about the worst case scenario 2021-01-18T16:34:59Z tdammers: IMO, even the Unix habit of assuming the system locale is better 2021-01-18T16:35:35Z tdammers: not to mention that more often than not, reading raw bytes is the correct thing to do - even with pseudo-textual protocols like HTTP 2021-01-18T16:36:48Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:37:32Z jcowan: Correct. But IRC is a special case: network content is ultimately processed by a human brain, not a state machine. 2021-01-18T16:38:10Z tdammers: IRC is a special case because it was designed under the assumption that explicitly defining or stating or negotiating encodings wouldn't be necessary 2021-01-18T16:38:28Z tdammers: and so the worst-case scenario is the only option, really 2021-01-18T16:38:35Z jcowan: Yes, and I'm arguing thaat that assumption is correct. It wouldn't make much sense for you to be /kicked for sending bad input. 2021-01-18T16:39:05Z jcowan: (the original encoding for IRC was ISO-646-FI) 2021-01-18T16:40:17Z mdhughes: From http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/ISO_646-FI/SE : "This one is aimed at the Finnish and Swedish market. Is it time to Finnish talking about it now?" 2021-01-18T16:40:31Z jcowan chuckles 2021-01-18T16:40:57Z jcowan: That is why nicks are allowed to contain [ \ ] { | }, because those were Finnish/Swedish specific letters. 2021-01-18T16:42:03Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T16:44:48Z Yardanico quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T16:45:37Z Yardanico joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:48:58Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:50:38Z dieggsy: jcowan: sure, could I send a patch to someone? 2021-01-18T16:53:58Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-18T16:55:05Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T16:58:22Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-18T16:59:18Z LeoNerd: And because IRC is case-insensitive, it's why [\] and {|} are case-collisions of each other 2021-01-18T16:59:53Z LeoNerd: Amd -maybe- also ^ and ~, depending on how strictly the server is interpreting the specs 2021-01-18T17:02:56Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T17:04:25Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T17:04:34Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:04:53Z notzmv`` joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:09:40Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T17:11:00Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:12:45Z notzmv`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T17:15:46Z notzmv``` joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:17:22Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T17:17:28Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T17:18:27Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:18:28Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:20:25Z aeth: to be fair, []s and {}s are clearly different cases of the same thing. I'm guessing {}s are the lower case one because of how ASCII is structured. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII#Character_set 2021-01-18T17:21:09Z aeth: Meanwhile, according to that, lower case ( would be H :-p 2021-01-18T17:23:50Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T17:27:12Z notzmv``` is now known as notzmv 2021-01-18T17:27:13Z Riastradh: It's because the original encoding was ISO-646-FI, in which #x5b #x5c #x5d are Ä Ö Å instead of [ \ ], and #x7b #x7c #x7d are ä ö å instead of { | }. 2021-01-18T17:27:31Z notzmv quit (Changing host) 2021-01-18T17:27:31Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:28:09Z Riastradh: For the disunicoded among you: that's LATIN CAPITAL/SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS, LATIN CAPITAL/SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS, and LATIN CAPITAL/SMALL LETTER A WITH RING ABOVE, respectively. 2021-01-18T17:29:58Z jcowan: RTFScroll, Riastradh 2021-01-18T17:30:35Z Riastradh: jcowan: responding to aeth who seems to have either missed the scroll or missed the significance of ISO-646-FI 2021-01-18T17:30:41Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:31:09Z Riastradh: (or I misunderstood aeth's message) 2021-01-18T17:31:21Z jcowan: I think he was talking about the design of US-ASCII in the first place (ASCII-67, technically) and why it pairs up [] and {} 2021-01-18T17:31:43Z aeth: Riastradh: I was joking about adding #x-20 being uppercase and adding #x+20 being lowercase. 2021-01-18T17:31:58Z aeth: Riastradh: i.e. setting up that lower case ( is H 2021-01-18T17:33:25Z aeth: And upper case ( is apparently ␈ which makes a lot of sense because the other way to "write" the unprintable backspace is ^H 2021-01-18T17:35:36Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T17:37:29Z Riastradh: you must mean , not ␈ 2021-01-18T17:42:49Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:49:20Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T17:50:13Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:55:23Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-18T17:56:12Z jcowan: aeth: In ASCII-63 the whole of 60-7D was empty, and 7E was ESC (7F was and is DEL) 2021-01-18T17:56:27Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T17:58:32Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T17:59:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T18:00:58Z ggoes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-01-18T18:01:23Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-01-18T18:02:58Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-18T18:03:13Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T18:04:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T18:04:14Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T18:11:25Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T18:12:51Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T18:17:01Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T18:19:12Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-18T18:19:25Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T18:20:31Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T18:25:48Z hive-mind quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-18T18:32:16Z hive-mind joined #scheme 2021-01-18T18:33:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T18:36:01Z aeth: Riastradh: great, now everyone's IRC logs are going to be treated by GNU grep as binary unless you --text or -a 2021-01-18T18:50:32Z mdhughes: Also on early keyboards !"#$%&'() are above the 1234567890 keys because #x-10 2021-01-18T18:54:38Z mdhughes: The Atari 800 I grew up with was !"#$%&'@() up there, only the last 3 are off-ATASCII. 2021-01-18T19:08:19Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T19:20:24Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-18T19:29:42Z srandon111 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T19:38:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T19:43:51Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-18T19:44:53Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-18T19:47:57Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-18T19:51:41Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T20:00:52Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-18T20:06:55Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T20:07:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T20:11:55Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T20:12:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T20:19:25Z srandon111 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T20:35:57Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T20:36:45Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T20:37:21Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-18T20:49:00Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T20:55:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T21:08:27Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-18T21:12:13Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T21:12:27Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-18T21:12:33Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-18T21:12:56Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-18T21:26:56Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T21:32:16Z dukester joined #scheme 2021-01-18T21:36:06Z dukester left #scheme 2021-01-18T21:38:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T21:38:52Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-18T21:44:49Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-18T21:57:45Z garf_beans joined #scheme 2021-01-18T21:58:45Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-18T22:01:57Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-18T22:08:24Z jcowan: mdhughes: Vice versa. That reflects the way manual typewriters were laid out in the U.S. 2021-01-18T22:08:53Z jcowan: (I typed on one for years before switching to an IBM Selectric, which is what the modern U.S. computer keyboard is based on.) 2021-01-18T22:11:45Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-18T22:12:32Z jcowan: Because the [AK]SR-33 machine used mechanical switching, laying out ASCII-63 as it was made it very simple to get right. CTRL masked off some bits, SHIFT masked on others. If you tried to type something meaningless like SHIFT+A (since A already meant capital A) the keys would physically be blocked from being pressed. 2021-01-18T22:13:43Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T22:15:51Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-18T22:16:07Z jcowan: My first typewriter lacked a 1/! key also: you typed 1 as ell, and ! as ell-backspace-dot. 2021-01-18T22:16:16Z laxask is now known as sudden 2021-01-18T22:20:23Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-18T22:22:11Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-18T22:40:16Z grobe0ba quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-18T22:52:12Z grobe0ba joined #scheme 2021-01-18T22:53:34Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-18T22:54:57Z lambda-11235 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-18T22:55:40Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T23:08:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-18T23:11:11Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-18T23:15:17Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-18T23:24:49Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-18T23:25:14Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-18T23:45:53Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-18T23:48:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T23:48:36Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-18T23:49:33Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-18T23:57:07Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-19T00:04:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-19T00:04:07Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T00:05:05Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-19T00:05:08Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-19T00:05:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T00:09:34Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-19T00:12:49Z hugo3 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-19T00:22:50Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-19T00:24:33Z daviid: is '... in the entire course of the G-Golf manual ...' correct english? 2021-01-19T00:32:56Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-19T00:42:57Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-19T00:46:38Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-19T00:46:54Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-19T00:47:17Z hugo3 joined #scheme 2021-01-19T00:48:20Z garf_beans quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T00:48:45Z garf_beans joined #scheme 2021-01-19T00:50:51Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-19T00:57:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-19T00:58:59Z jcowan: daviid: Yes 2021-01-19T00:59:33Z jcowan: though "course" suggests something you read through rather than something you refer to. 2021-01-19T00:59:47Z daviid: jcowan: ok tx 2021-01-19T01:12:13Z garf_beans quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-19T01:15:12Z garf_beans joined #scheme 2021-01-19T01:23:16Z DGASAU`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-19T01:24:04Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T01:25:42Z garf_beans quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T01:26:28Z richbridger quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T01:29:46Z seepel1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T01:30:47Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-19T01:48:36Z manumanumanu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-19T01:50:45Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-01-19T02:11:04Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-19T02:11:41Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-19T02:14:20Z webshinra_ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T02:15:37Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T02:24:06Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T02:27:55Z lambda-11235 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-19T02:28:29Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-19T02:29:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T02:33:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-19T02:34:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T02:37:14Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T02:37:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T02:43:00Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-19T03:04:28Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-19T03:05:06Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-19T03:17:16Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T03:18:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T03:22:48Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T03:44:55Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T03:50:13Z lockywolf quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-19T03:51:52Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-01-19T03:55:48Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-01-19T04:04:25Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-19T04:05:13Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T04:31:17Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-19T04:39:16Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-19T04:42:13Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T04:42:52Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-19T04:45:59Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T04:46:35Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-19T04:46:48Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-19T04:50:10Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-19T05:08:31Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-19T05:37:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T05:41:49Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-19T05:41:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-19T05:56:09Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-19T06:48:57Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-19T06:50:11Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T06:51:03Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-19T07:01:09Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T07:01:24Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-19T07:02:00Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-19T07:17:35Z _anb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-19T07:29:08Z zgasma joined #scheme 2021-01-19T07:29:15Z rgherdt__ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T07:29:36Z aquijoule__ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T07:29:46Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T07:31:13Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T07:31:28Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T07:31:32Z elflng_ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T07:31:35Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T07:31:35Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T07:32:09Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T07:32:09Z aquijoule_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T07:32:09Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T07:55:13Z mdhughes: jcowan: Remington was !"#$%-&'() not quite ASCII order but certainly influential. 2021-01-19T08:10:37Z mdhughes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-19T08:10:41Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-19T08:10:57Z evdubs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T08:11:05Z mdhughes joined #scheme 2021-01-19T08:11:17Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-01-19T08:22:37Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-19T08:30:22Z rgherdt__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T08:30:40Z rgherdt__ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T09:07:21Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-19T09:09:29Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-19T09:20:38Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-19T09:30:31Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T10:02:41Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-19T10:04:28Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-19T10:06:48Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-19T10:08:35Z amirouche: hellog 2021-01-19T10:08:41Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-19T10:10:29Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-19T10:12:31Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T10:16:59Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-19T10:28:28Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T11:27:08Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:42:15Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:57:46Z shawnw quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:46Z gravicappa quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:46Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:46Z daviid quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:46Z casaca quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:47Z srji quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:47Z X-Scale quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:47Z Khisanth quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:47Z cpape quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:47Z `micro quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:47Z cky quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:47Z stux16777216Away quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:57:47Z aoh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-19T11:58:01Z srji joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:03Z cky joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:11Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:18Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:20Z `micro joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:29Z aoh joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:29Z casaca joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:29Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:29Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:29Z Khisanth joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:29Z cpape joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:58:42Z rgherdt__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-19T11:58:46Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T11:59:24Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2021-01-19T12:00:59Z stux16777216Away joined #scheme 2021-01-19T12:01:53Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-19T12:08:11Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-19T12:23:04Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-19T12:54:29Z Posterdati joined #scheme 2021-01-19T12:54:31Z Posterdati: hi 2021-01-19T12:55:27Z Posterdati: please help I'm looking for ebnf grammar (bison + flex) for scheme. I'm trying to implent a simple scheme interpreter for a microcontroller. Thanks for help! 2021-01-19T13:12:41Z mirrorbird quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T13:13:06Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-19T13:14:25Z amirouche: did you try a LALR parser ? 2021-01-19T13:28:35Z sp1ff quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-01-19T13:56:18Z garf_beans joined #scheme 2021-01-19T13:58:21Z garf_beans quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T14:03:55Z tumdum joined #scheme 2021-01-19T14:03:55Z tumdum quit (Changing host) 2021-01-19T14:03:55Z tumdum joined #scheme 2021-01-19T14:04:10Z Posterdati: amirouche: I'm using bison + flex 2021-01-19T14:05:28Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-19T14:05:44Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-19T14:06:00Z amirouche: it is a private joke sorry. 2021-01-19T14:06:15Z amirouche: IDK about ebnf grammar 2021-01-19T14:13:19Z mangol: Posterdati: scheme and other lisp dialects are almost always parsed using a hand-written recursive-descent parser. since lisp doesn't have infix operators, a parser generator doesn't help very much. you only need one character of lookahead (peek-char in scheme, or getc+ungetc in C) 2021-01-19T14:13:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T14:13:41Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T14:13:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T14:14:04Z mangol: are you sure you need a BNF grammar in particular? if you do, the R6RS and R7RS standards documents have a grammar that looks like pseudo-BNF 2021-01-19T14:20:01Z wasamasa: I suspect the trickiest part to be the many forms of integer literals 2021-01-19T14:23:19Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T14:26:38Z mangol: indeed, the number syntax is baroque. but a microcontroller scheme probably only needs exact integers which are quite easy to parse. 2021-01-19T14:27:26Z wasamasa: yeah, I'd figure out what the hard limits exactly are and take inspiration from similar projects 2021-01-19T14:27:41Z wasamasa: maybe not go as far as armpit scheme with macros written in C 2021-01-19T14:27:42Z mangol: the number syntax doesn't require more than one character of lookahead either, but the rules sure are complex 2021-01-19T14:28:53Z mangol: and the #e/#i and #b/#o/#d/#x prefixes can be given in either order if both are present. but #e and #i can be safely left out from a small Scheme implementation since people very rarely use them 2021-01-19T14:31:08Z mangol: just decide that integers are always exact and other real numbers are always inexact like most programming languages do 2021-01-19T14:32:47Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T14:33:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T14:33:30Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T14:33:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T14:38:47Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-19T14:40:31Z elflng_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T14:42:26Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T14:45:36Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T14:47:54Z jcowan: Being able to write exact fractions in decimal form is very useful: #e3.12 is easier to understand than 312/100, which will be printed as 78/4. 2021-01-19T14:52:36Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-19T15:22:51Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T15:26:53Z emacsoma1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-19T15:28:02Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2021-01-19T15:41:49Z webshinra_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T16:01:38Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-19T16:09:55Z Posterdati: mangol: numeric could be handled with the lexer 2021-01-19T16:17:21Z mdhughes: Also, there may be a Scheme that already works on your microcontroller, like tinyscheme? 2021-01-19T16:17:32Z mdhughes: Or loko. 2021-01-19T16:18:00Z _anb joined #scheme 2021-01-19T16:22:56Z cross_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-19T16:26:20Z dukester joined #scheme 2021-01-19T16:29:12Z cross joined #scheme 2021-01-19T16:39:07Z dukester left #scheme 2021-01-19T16:51:44Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-19T17:19:55Z nij joined #scheme 2021-01-19T17:19:56Z nij: Hello! 2021-01-19T17:19:58Z nij: There was an article in the CL circle a few years ago, claiming CL is finally an (acceptable) scripting language. link: http://fare.tunes.org/files/asdf3/asdf3-els2014.html 2021-01-19T17:20:02Z nij: To be honest, I don't understand that article very well. I'm thinking of using Guile as my scripting language. Does it satisfy what the article says? Is Guile "an acceptable scripting language" as well? 2021-01-19T17:23:28Z wasamasa: it depends on your definition of a scripting language 2021-01-19T17:23:28Z nij quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-19T17:25:51Z nij joined #scheme 2021-01-19T17:26:16Z wasamasa: some people argue C is an acceptable scripting language thanks to tcc 2021-01-19T17:26:37Z wasamasa: I believe it takes a lot more than just having shebang support 2021-01-19T17:28:32Z nij: What could it possibly miss @@, other than having shebang support? 2021-01-19T17:29:10Z wasamasa: convenience for writing a solution quickly and having all the language support necessary for the topics in your scripts 2021-01-19T17:29:41Z wasamasa: for example I mentioned ruby for having lispy semantics, high density and great support for imperative string/hash processing 2021-01-19T17:30:07Z wasamasa: there's also lots of libraries if I get out of my comfort zone 2021-01-19T17:30:18Z wasamasa: that is my definition of scripting language 2021-01-19T17:32:45Z nij: that seems to be about the size of the existing libraries 2021-01-19T17:32:56Z nij: I should check the size of the community then xD xD 2021-01-19T17:35:02Z wasamasa: not only 2021-01-19T17:35:14Z wasamasa: it is also about the design that went into the languages 2021-01-19T17:35:55Z wasamasa: one could argue that scheme with its focus on minimalism and purity is worse than a language with focus on integrated batteries and convenience 2021-01-19T17:36:00Z mdhughes: Startup time, C FFI, and ease of calling OS functions. 2021-01-19T17:36:40Z mdhughes: Chez, Gauche, Guile are pretty good for that. Chicken would be but it runs very slow interpreted, and the compiler takes forever on big programs. 2021-01-19T17:37:12Z wasamasa: yeah 2021-01-19T17:37:23Z wasamasa: I don't really like it for scripting, rather for serious programs 2021-01-19T17:37:29Z mdhughes: Gambit/Gerbil's all of those, but the OS functions are limited and undocumented. 2021-01-19T17:37:33Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T17:37:36Z wasamasa: things where I'm not programming against the clock :P 2021-01-19T17:37:52Z nij: wasamasa: it = Chicken? 2021-01-19T17:37:56Z wasamasa: yes 2021-01-19T17:38:08Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T17:38:23Z wasamasa: it is noticable how every time I come close to 1000 SLOC compiles get unbearably slow 2021-01-19T17:38:27Z mdhughes: MIT's fine in almost all ways, except that running it as a script is awkward, it's really meant to be run from edwin. 2021-01-19T17:39:25Z mdhughes: My game in CHICKEN was taking over 30s to compile, and it wasn't usable anymore in csi. 2021-01-19T17:39:49Z mdhughes: Most of it's been ported to Chez now, and starts in a few seconds, runs faster than compiled CHICKEN. 2021-01-19T17:41:34Z mdhughes: I write a lot of little shell tools in Chez and it's as convenient as shell or Python, admittedly with my 1000+ lines of libraries. 2021-01-19T17:42:58Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-19T17:43:33Z Anonymous____ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T17:43:37Z Anonymous____: H 2021-01-19T17:43:58Z nij: i 2021-01-19T17:44:46Z Anonymous____: Im struggling to write a program to loop usign call/cc without using recursive procedure and assigments 2021-01-19T17:44:50Z Anonymous____: Can u help? 2021-01-19T17:48:16Z mdhughes: call/cc doesn't loop, it escapes loops. Does other things, too. 2021-01-19T17:48:34Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-19T17:48:42Z Anonymous____: Well its from an exervice from The Scheme Programming Languafe Ed4 2021-01-19T17:48:45Z Anonymous____: Language* 2021-01-19T17:50:02Z wasamasa: it can be done though 2021-01-19T17:50:17Z wasamasa: I remember seeing an example on the scheme wiki or somewhere else 2021-01-19T17:50:19Z Anonymous____: https://a.uguu.se/EBpRYhRr.png 2021-01-19T17:50:22Z Anonymous____: thats the exercise 2021-01-19T17:50:30Z Anonymous____: But i cant imagine any way to do this 2021-01-19T17:52:55Z Anonymous____ is now known as Anonymous__ 2021-01-19T17:54:19Z nij left #scheme 2021-01-19T17:56:20Z mdhughes: I couldn't work out a machine to do that, but it's in the answer page. 2021-01-19T17:58:10Z mdhughes: And I read it and I don't understand why that works. 2021-01-19T17:58:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-19T17:58:46Z wasamasa: such is call/cc 2021-01-19T17:59:00Z zgasma quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-19T18:02:35Z ecraven: hm.. not sure whether I did it correctly, but it seems to work ;) 2021-01-19T18:02:51Z ecraven: you need to take a continuation that returns a value to a context where you can use it again 2021-01-19T18:03:49Z ecraven: so ideally, you need to (let ((i [])) ...) where [] is the continuation, and you want to return increasing numbers from that continuation 2021-01-19T18:05:35Z ecraven: however, you not only need the number, you also need to get the continuation, in order to call it again later ;) 2021-01-19T18:06:28Z ecraven: hehe, actually this is fun, writing loops this way makes quite sure that close to no-one actually understands what's going on :P 2021-01-19T18:06:50Z gwatt: That's how you get job security 2021-01-19T18:06:50Z Anonymous__: hehe i dont get it yet 2021-01-19T18:08:36Z ecraven: do you want more hints? 2021-01-19T18:18:45Z Anonymous__: yes 2021-01-19T18:18:52Z Anonymous__: im struggling :( 2021-01-19T18:19:37Z ecraven: well, to display one number, you'd write something like this: (let ((i 0)) (display i) (newline) (loop)) 2021-01-19T18:19:51Z ecraven: loop should go back to the place where i gets its value 2021-01-19T18:19:59Z ecraven: so you need to take the continuation at that place: 2021-01-19T18:20:19Z ecraven: (let ((i (call/cc (k) ???))) (display i) (newline) (k ???)) 2021-01-19T18:20:25Z Anonymous__: th ecall/cc is in place of 0 2021-01-19T18:21:41Z evdubs quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-19T18:21:55Z ecraven: if you could make it return two values, the continuation *and* a number, you might be able to do the following: 2021-01-19T18:22:02Z wasamasa: it's a super weird control flow 2021-01-19T18:22:16Z ecraven: (let ((k+i (call/cc (k) ???))) (display i) (newline) (k k (+ i 1))) 2021-01-19T18:22:38Z Anonymous__: Well i can mkae it return a pair right? 2021-01-19T18:23:22Z gwatt: you can return multiple values as well/instead 2021-01-19T18:23:33Z Anonymous__: likes (values) from CL? 2021-01-19T18:23:37Z gwatt: yep 2021-01-19T18:23:44Z ecraven: the key point is that the continuation can return itself, so it can be "reused" later ;) 2021-01-19T18:23:56Z Anonymous__: escraven i tried hard to do it 2021-01-19T18:23:58Z ecraven: `let-values' and `values' are the ones you need, if you want to do it that way 2021-01-19T18:48:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T18:50:09Z Anonymous__: im missing somet ecraven 2021-01-19T18:50:28Z Anonymous__: in the first execution how i is supposed to be bounded ? 2021-01-19T18:50:35Z Anonymous__: https://paste.ofcode.org/wiVLynUgeZ8HngvkFFc5m7 2021-01-19T18:50:50Z Anonymous__: Other thing, continuations can receive more than one parameter? 2021-01-19T18:51:21Z gwatt: yes, they will return any number of values 2021-01-19T18:51:25Z ecraven: you're on the righ track ;) 2021-01-19T18:51:49Z ecraven: yes, if you want to start with 0, then inside the call/cc, you should return 0, not 1+ i 2021-01-19T18:52:02Z ecraven: but you could *pass* (1+ i) to the continuation, so the *next* run will see an updated value 2021-01-19T18:52:16Z Anonymous__: I thinked the continuations can receive just one parameters 2021-01-19T18:52:31Z ecraven: no, you can call the continuation with n parameters, all n will be returned 2021-01-19T18:52:47Z Anonymous__: ohhh 2021-01-19T18:52:51Z Anonymous__: I want to kill myself heh 2021-01-19T18:52:52Z ecraven: the lambda you pass to call/cc can only get one parameter (the continuation), but the actual continuation itself can get as many as it wants 2021-01-19T18:53:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-19T18:54:49Z Anonymous__: so the continuation does somehitng like.. 2021-01-19T18:55:17Z Anonymous__: is something like ** (lambda lst (apply values lst)) 2021-01-19T18:57:16Z ecraven: yes, that is exactly what the continuation itself is 2021-01-19T18:57:32Z ecraven: just the actual point of *where* it returns is the special thing 2021-01-19T19:02:03Z Anonymous__: ecraven: https://a.uguu.se/rGvGZKdm.png 2021-01-19T19:02:17Z Anonymous__: ty!, appreciated the help 2021-01-19T19:02:22Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-01-19T19:02:34Z ecraven: that's what I had ;) no idea whether it's very good, but it seems to work :D 2021-01-19T19:02:41Z ecraven: no problem, it was interesting ;) 2021-01-19T19:02:48Z ecraven: glad to help, come back any time 2021-01-19T19:03:13Z Anonymous__: I never have seen this kind of loop before, in any language 2021-01-19T19:03:32Z Anonymous__: perhabs most similar is using setjmp, longjmp in C as leo said in #guile 2021-01-19T19:04:36Z Anonymous__: Well i will see the answerd from book now too 2021-01-19T19:06:25Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-19T19:07:50Z Anonymous__: the answer in book if someone is curious https://paste.ofcode.org/39eKWvCzdS5KViPRpW56Myz 2021-01-19T19:09:58Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-19T19:11:00Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-01-19T19:22:04Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-19T19:26:35Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-19T19:28:25Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-19T19:35:41Z duncanm: hey hey, ecraven, happy new year 2021-01-19T19:38:42Z ecraven: hey duncanm! same to you 2021-01-19T19:38:56Z ecraven: hope you are doing well, and you and your family are not affected by covid 2021-01-19T19:39:22Z ecraven: Anonymous__: that's almost exactly what you came up with ;) 2021-01-19T19:44:44Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Since you've had important insights on the general `search' procedure in the past, here's another question. Current specs require the `failure' and `success' continuations be tail-called by the search procedure. Do you have any ideas as to why this is? Some have interpreted this requirement to mean that `search' must be implemented tail-recursively ... 2021-01-19T19:45:03Z Zipheir: which thrashes traversal of some inductively-defined structures. 2021-01-19T19:45:45Z Zipheir: Rather, I should say, thrashes *construction* of inductively-defined structures. 2021-01-19T19:53:35Z seepel joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:00:52Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:01:05Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T20:01:30Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:09:38Z dbmikus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-19T20:10:06Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:13:29Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:20:59Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:22:32Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:28:18Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T20:30:08Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:32:06Z nij joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:32:30Z nij: New to scheme! Is there default package that deals with csv files? If not, what's the standard way to get packages online? 2021-01-19T20:33:33Z gnomon joined #scheme 2021-01-19T20:34:24Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-19T20:34:31Z nij: (any asdf equivalent for scheme?) 2021-01-19T20:39:50Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T20:41:46Z mario-goulart: Hi nij. Welcome. In scheme packages are pretty much implementation-dependent. 2021-01-19T20:42:19Z nij: Oh.. I should go to #guile then. 2021-01-19T20:42:20Z mario-goulart: There are some package providers which support multiple implementations, though. 2021-01-19T20:42:35Z nij: I see. 2021-01-19T20:42:54Z mario-goulart: Yeah, if you are using guile you'll probably get the best answers in #guile. 2021-01-19T20:46:08Z nij: mario-goulart: Thanks :-) 2021-01-19T20:46:31Z mario-goulart: yw 2021-01-19T20:46:49Z nij left #scheme 2021-01-19T20:57:54Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-19T21:04:47Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-19T21:12:24Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-19T21:20:45Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-19T21:24:59Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T21:25:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T21:30:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-19T21:31:51Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T21:35:21Z Riastradh: Zipheir: `search' isn't supposed to be doing any sort of update, so that should be a non-issue. 2021-01-19T21:37:16Z Riastradh: Zipheir: For `update', I imagine the idea was that the caller should be able to make a decision about where to proceed next in the continuations, and that has to be tail-recursive -- not to mention that the if-found continuation is itself presented with a choice to delete or replace. 2021-01-19T21:37:48Z Riastradh: See bb-tree/update in https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/bb-tree.scm for the example that might well have served as the prototype for the whole business. 2021-01-19T21:40:00Z Riastradh: The prototype might also have been update! in (but this one is not inductively constructed, whereas bb-tree is). 2021-01-19T21:50:36Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-19T21:52:12Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2021-01-19T21:53:05Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-19T21:56:07Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-19T22:00:57Z [d] quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-19T22:01:04Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-19T22:28:51Z dukester joined #scheme 2021-01-19T22:30:34Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-19T22:31:09Z dukester left #scheme 2021-01-19T22:35:09Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T22:36:03Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-19T22:40:18Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Thanks. `search' is `update', these days, it seems. 2021-01-19T22:43:47Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-19T22:56:50Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-19T23:00:01Z Zipheir: It doesn't seem to make much of a difference. An isolation of the situation might be an (update pred lis if-found) function. (Search for the first element of lis satisfying pred and call if-found on it to get the new element; otherwise, return lis unchanged.) What can go wrong if the call to if-found is not in tail position? 2021-01-19T23:00:38Z Zipheir: I suppose the idea is that you might want to call an escape procedure within if-found. 2021-01-19T23:01:18Z Zipheir: No, that's irrelevant. Hmm. 2021-01-19T23:01:51Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-19T23:02:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T23:05:06Z dukester joined #scheme 2021-01-19T23:06:00Z dukester left #scheme 2021-01-19T23:07:24Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-19T23:08:30Z pinoaffe quit (Changing host) 2021-01-19T23:08:30Z pinoaffe joined #scheme 2021-01-19T23:08:59Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T23:13:05Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-19T23:18:29Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-19T23:21:06Z Zipheir: Actually, that doesn't capture the continuation-chaining of the update/search procedures. At least I understand how update can be done with tail-calls now. I think. The bb-tree examples are very helpful. 2021-01-19T23:24:10Z dukester joined #scheme 2021-01-19T23:24:55Z dukester left #scheme 2021-01-19T23:25:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-19T23:27:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-19T23:50:04Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-20T00:01:56Z Anonymous__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T00:03:05Z epony joined #scheme 2021-01-20T00:03:32Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T00:07:35Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T00:10:32Z aquijoule__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-20T00:15:20Z skapata quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T00:34:30Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-20T00:35:37Z jcowan: My definition of _scripting language_ is 'programming language that some people look down on'. 2021-01-20T00:50:21Z bitwize: By that definition, is C++ a scripting language? 2021-01-20T00:50:37Z LeoNerd: Maybe it's an extension of typing systems 2021-01-20T00:50:54Z LeoNerd: Everyone knows that a "strong typing" system is one the author likes, and "weak typing" is one that the author does not 2021-01-20T00:51:02Z LeoNerd: Maybe scripting languages are those using weak typing? 2021-01-20T00:51:28Z bitwize: We kind of have a useful minimum threshold for type-system strength: Hindley-Milner 2021-01-20T00:55:12Z bitwize: Weaker typing systems are grandfathered in, but if you're working on a new language in the 21st century and your type system is weaker than HM, shame on you (looking at you, Go) 2021-01-20T00:58:28Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T00:59:20Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-20T00:59:25Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-20T01:00:43Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:01:06Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:01:45Z edgar-xyz joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:02:42Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T01:03:20Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T01:03:20Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T01:04:00Z aeth: Wikipedia, at least, distinguishes between two kinds of scripting languages. Essentially (in my own words), languages that are used to extend applications (Lua is solely in this niche) and languages that are used for shell-like purposes (obviously, bash is solely in this niche). 2021-01-20T01:04:07Z aeth: The most popular, like Python, do both. 2021-01-20T01:04:31Z aeth: Trying to assign more characteristics is how you get a false dichotomy, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ousterhout's_dichotomy 2021-01-20T01:05:56Z aeth: Common Lisp in particular is hard to fit into either of those two categories. Individual Scheme dialects, as I've said before, tend to aim more at the "scripting language" niche than traditional Lisps. And, of course, Emacs Lisp is very obviously just an extension/application language. 2021-01-20T01:06:38Z Zipheir: Larry Wall goes over the "scripting vs. programming" thing: https://www.perl.com/pub/2007/12/06/soto-11.html/ 2021-01-20T01:07:09Z LeoNerd: "A script is what you give the performers, a program is what you give the audience" 2021-01-20T01:07:18Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-20T01:07:24Z Riastradh: `a metaphor is what you mix in a bowl' 2021-01-20T01:07:25Z LeoNerd: I believe that was Larry as well 2021-01-20T01:07:27Z aeth: Zipheir: Perl's interesting because to me it's clearly a scripting language aimed at replacing stuff like awk and sh in a very Unixy context... and yet, 20 years ago, it was huge on web stuff, which is clearly the "application" language domain. 2021-01-20T01:07:48Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:08:03Z LeoNerd: That's what early Perl started as, yes,... a neater more self-contained unix shell + the tools. It's a huge amount more than that these days 2021-01-20T01:08:51Z Zipheir: Perl 6/raku is something pretty different from its predecessors, too. 2021-01-20T01:09:17Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:09:18Z LeoNerd: Oh indeed.. Raku is a brand new language "loosely inspired by" the Perl 1 to 5 family... 2021-01-20T01:09:33Z LeoNerd: Which is why we basically made them rename it away from "Perl 6" because that name was too confusing to everyone 2021-01-20T01:10:00Z Riastradh: Zipheir: The idea of this `update' interface is that it functions like (if (try to find a place to put the thing) ), but also furnishes each branch with the ability to replace, delete, or insert. 2021-01-20T01:16:22Z epony: aeth, Perl is more than that, of course, it teaches other languages what they have forgotten / left behind and shows them how to write reusable modules 2021-01-20T01:16:41Z epony: in a very platform independent way 2021-01-20T01:17:44Z Zipheir: Perl is the product of a radical naturalistic philosophy of programming language design. 2021-01-20T01:18:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T01:18:07Z epony: it's quite conventional.. 2021-01-20T01:18:12Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I think I understand. I'm just not clear on some of the tail-call requirements. 2021-01-20T01:18:25Z Zipheir: *on the reason for 2021-01-20T01:18:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:20:08Z Riastradh: Zipheir: What about requiring (if T C A) requiring C and A be in tail positions? 2021-01-20T01:20:36Z Zipheir: (Indeed, mapping-search from SRFI 146 doesn't tail-call its success/failure procedures, and no-one noticed until very recently.) 2021-01-20T01:20:38Z Riastradh: Same thing here, except that T can pass arguments to C and A. 2021-01-20T01:21:29Z Zipheir: Yes, the analogy with `if' makes it seem like they should be in tail position. 2021-01-20T01:21:56Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-20T01:23:16Z Zipheir: epony: Nowadays, maybe. At the time of its inception, Perl's AWK+sh-as-a-general-purpose-language approach was pretty radical. 2021-01-20T01:24:09Z jcowan: bitwize: Haskell is weaker than H-M 2021-01-20T01:24:47Z Riastradh: I have no idea what's up with the interface in SRFI 146. 2021-01-20T01:30:22Z Riastradh: Hmm... 2021-01-20T01:33:45Z Riastradh: I apparently wrote some code that does (if-found ) and (if-not-found ), which does not tail-call the continuations, which is why there is an operation: https://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/formatting/format.scm 2021-01-20T01:33:51Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:36:33Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:37:05Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T01:37:26Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-20T01:39:59Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:40:24Z Riastradh: (Why I did that, I have no idea.) 2021-01-20T01:43:39Z Riastradh: Anyway, it's possible that Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen independently designed SRFI 146's search interface or derived it from an unrelated source, or that something just got garbled on the way from my bb-tree/skip-list/hash-trie code. 2021-01-20T01:45:44Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:47:17Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:47:32Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T01:49:20Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:49:23Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T01:50:13Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-20T01:52:53Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:54:05Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:56:29Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-20T01:59:22Z lockywolf_: Perl's prominence in Web development is likely due to CPAN 2021-01-20T01:59:39Z aquijoule__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T01:59:54Z lockywolf_ dreaming of a CPAN→snow transpiler 2021-01-20T01:59:57Z aeth: Was, not is. 2021-01-20T02:01:22Z lockywolf_: prominence is subjective :) 2021-01-20T02:01:51Z aquijoule_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-20T02:02:08Z aeth: Perl seems to be the one that has declined the most. At least PHP still has a few big users, like Wikipedia, Facebook, Wordpress, etc. 2021-01-20T02:02:52Z lockywolf_: LiveJournal is still in Perl 2021-01-20T02:02:54Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised at some point if there's more new websites in Scheme than Perl. It would be hard to track, though. 2021-01-20T02:03:29Z lockywolf_: perl's websites are not "obviously perl'y" 2021-01-20T02:03:43Z lockywolf_: whereas php and java openly manifest themselves 2021-01-20T02:05:15Z lockywolf_: at the moment I am running, for personal usage, one Perl app, on php app, and one Go app 2021-01-20T02:05:21Z lockywolf_: web app 2021-01-20T02:05:35Z lockywolf_: I'm not at all representative though. 2021-01-20T02:05:55Z lockywolf_: Anyway, would anyone want to test SRFI-216 one last time before I finalise it? 2021-01-20T02:06:26Z lockywolf_: and no Scheme apps. shame on me 2021-01-20T02:06:47Z aeth: To be fair, I don't have any Scheme apps, either. 2021-01-20T02:07:18Z lockywolf_: ow, one Emacs Lisp app as well 2021-01-20T02:07:49Z lockywolf_: "clearly an extension language" 2021-01-20T02:08:00Z aeth: it is 2021-01-20T02:08:15Z lockywolf_: yeah, but it is sometimes misused 2021-01-20T02:08:46Z aeth: happens all of the time 2021-01-20T02:09:06Z aeth: there's probably someone somewhere out there using Minecraft as a web server 2021-01-20T02:09:35Z lockywolf_: since there is a nice org export engine, and an efficient parser for org templates, you can do pretty neat things 2021-01-20T02:12:08Z lockywolf_: maybe writing an org parser in Scheme could be a key thing in getting Scheme more widely adopted 2021-01-20T02:12:19Z lockywolf_: by hackers, obviously 2021-01-20T02:13:01Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-20T02:19:24Z epony: aeth, if we compare the modules.. not very likely to see perl getting displaced for text processing, you simply can't wing it ;-) 2021-01-20T02:19:57Z epony: it's literally all of that space 2021-01-20T02:20:25Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T02:21:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T02:21:17Z aeth: epony: Perl's problem is that it's not really a consideration in most people's minds unless they're old... Probably 35 years old or so, maybe 40? 2021-01-20T02:21:32Z aeth: Old for the industry, that's for sure. 2021-01-20T02:21:46Z epony: in that sentence you should really put Lisp family ;-) 2021-01-20T02:22:08Z aeth: I mean, Lisp never had the success of Perl because it was mostly on machines that were out of reach for most people. 2021-01-20T02:22:40Z epony: you mean it underperforms in productivity 2021-01-20T02:22:40Z aeth: And for users of Lisp in its prime, you'd have to go more towards... 50+ 2021-01-20T02:23:02Z epony: where modules are just not your career any more.. 2021-01-20T02:23:25Z epony: so, brace this.. it's decayed poorly 2021-01-20T02:23:45Z epony: fortran ate it 2021-01-20T02:24:07Z aeth: No, Fortran wasn't directly competing with it. C++ was, however, directly competing with both Fortran and Lisp. 2021-01-20T02:24:35Z epony: and then basic, and pascal, and python and jayscrapped 2021-01-20T02:28:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T02:28:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-20T02:35:55Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-20T02:37:00Z lockywolf_: "text processing" means a different thing nowadays 2021-01-20T02:37:35Z lockywolf_: python has fancy regexps if you need them, and nltk 2021-01-20T02:37:45Z lockywolf_: and even wordnet and such 2021-01-20T02:38:09Z epony: it means the same thing, python is not displacing php 2021-01-20T02:38:18Z lockywolf_: if anybody is unrivaled there, that is python 2021-01-20T02:38:25Z epony: where? ;-) 2021-01-20T02:38:34Z lockywolf_: in "text processing" 2021-01-20T02:38:41Z epony: that is a good joke 2021-01-20T02:39:05Z epony: checkout how Google is phasing it out 2021-01-20T02:39:31Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T02:39:39Z lockywolf_: tell me more 2021-01-20T02:39:42Z epony: it's replaced by JS in schools 2021-01-20T02:39:54Z epony: it's not writing mobile apps 2021-01-20T02:40:03Z epony: sounds like a pretty stale niche 2021-01-20T02:40:54Z lockywolf_: mobile apps are not about text processing 2021-01-20T02:40:55Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T02:41:00Z epony: lockywolf_, we can agree it's the failed Perl replacement as a glue language for the web 2021-01-20T02:41:09Z lockywolf_: schools are also not about text processing 2021-01-20T02:41:22Z epony: sure sure, enjoy your snake ;-) 2021-01-20T02:41:37Z epony: it lisps familiarity 2021-01-20T02:43:03Z lockywolf_: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1609.08144.pdf 2021-01-20T02:43:14Z lockywolf_: The models are trained by a system we implemented using TensorFlow[1]. 2021-01-20T02:43:47Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-20T02:43:57Z lockywolf_: so that is python, with custom-tailored hardware accelerated matrix multiplication 2021-01-20T02:44:42Z epony: remember I said text processing above? ;-) where did you go through the field of clay of fortran that I said killed lisp family 2021-01-20T02:44:54Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-20T02:44:54Z lockywolf_: I'm not _enjoying_ it. I'm just stating it as it is. In fact, I came to Scheme in the search of an interface to TensorFlow better than Python. 2021-01-20T02:45:12Z lockywolf_: I do not understand you. 2021-01-20T02:45:32Z epony: you're just confirming what I briefly mention while attempting to argue python is a text processing setup ;-) while it's just a repaste of fortran libs 2021-01-20T02:45:52Z lockywolf_: it is, but how is it connected? 2021-01-20T02:46:04Z epony: where? 2021-01-20T02:46:07Z lockywolf_: or "how is it related"? 2021-01-20T02:46:25Z epony: in your imaginary tensor mensor field of text processing 2021-01-20T02:46:39Z epony: see, you just talk noise 2021-01-20T02:46:44Z lockywolf_: no, you 2021-01-20T02:46:47Z epony: u 2021-01-20T02:47:01Z lockywolf_: (facepalm.jpg) 2021-01-20T02:47:08Z lockywolf_: I'll let you be then. 2021-01-20T02:47:22Z epony: no let yourself read what is being written 2021-01-20T02:47:24Z lockywolf_: We can agree that you won. 2021-01-20T02:48:28Z epony: keep the crown of "argued for the enemy" 2021-01-20T02:48:56Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-20T02:50:01Z epony: confusius says: when you cheer for python, it's confirming that I told you it is the continuation of no lisp in school (dookie) 2021-01-20T02:50:02Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf_: JFTR, I don't understand your opponent's argument, either. 2021-01-20T02:50:15Z epony: oh, you can't begin to understand ;-) 2021-01-20T02:50:39Z epony: put on glasses 2021-01-20T02:50:59Z aeth: Yes, Lisp is dead, clearly. 2021-01-20T02:51:16Z epony: lockywolf_, said it.. one of yours 2021-01-20T02:51:22Z epony: :-D 2021-01-20T02:51:31Z epony: !dang 2021-01-20T02:53:05Z iv4nshm4k0v: epony: Sure. Once they start to pay me for understanding everyone on IRC, I'd put a lot of effort into it, promise. 2021-01-20T02:53:24Z epony: add more tensors to win 2021-01-20T02:55:01Z iv4nshm4k0v sticks to his matrices, and of mercifully low order at that; haven't touched tensors since uni 2021-01-20T02:56:11Z epony: so you're both fortrans in millenial tinfoil 2021-01-20T02:56:24Z lockywolf_: I surely am. 2021-01-20T02:56:41Z epony: cool 2021-01-20T02:56:48Z lockywolf_: I love Fortran. 2021-01-20T02:57:05Z epony: yeah it's the best BASIC 2021-01-20T02:57:45Z iv4nshm4k0v: I actually was pretty skeptical about Fortran. Until I came across Python. 2021-01-20T02:59:24Z lockywolf_: iv4nshm4k0v, https://gitlab.com/Lockywolf/schemetran, patches welcom 2021-01-20T02:59:35Z epony: hahaha 2021-01-20T03:02:15Z lockywolf_: Or, conversely, I think, the Keldysh Institute RAS should still have the BESM-assembly for this Lisp system: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/uppsala/Nordstrom-LISP_F3_Implementation_Guide-1978.pdf/view 2021-01-20T03:02:15Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/cOeQK72cIA 2021-01-20T03:02:48Z lockywolf_: oh, sorry, I mean BESM-Fortran 2021-01-20T03:04:38Z lockywolf_: This guy has a BESM implemented in Verilog: https://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/432719.html 2021-01-20T03:05:51Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-20T03:10:53Z lockywolf_: Admittedly, after CERN announced that they are switching from Fortran to C++, Fortran's perspectives look pretty grim. 2021-01-20T03:19:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T03:19:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-20T03:20:51Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-20T03:39:07Z sp1ff joined #scheme 2021-01-20T03:47:12Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T03:47:32Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-20T03:48:13Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T03:48:59Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T03:51:35Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-01-20T03:53:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-20T03:54:21Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-20T03:54:59Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T04:00:04Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T04:01:50Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T04:01:56Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-20T04:02:35Z aquijoule__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-20T04:16:34Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T04:17:10Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-20T04:18:26Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-01-20T04:23:14Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-20T04:25:17Z dieggsy: lockywolf_: up till when were they using fortran? 2021-01-20T04:26:09Z lockywolf_: I don't know the exact date. 2021-01-20T04:26:18Z lockywolf_: Like, until quite recently. 2021-01-20T04:26:23Z lockywolf_: Maybe 2018 2021-01-20T04:31:40Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-20T04:33:27Z dieggsy: oh my 2021-01-20T04:39:05Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T04:39:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-20T04:39:31Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T04:42:50Z sp1ff quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-20T04:43:01Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-20T04:54:26Z aeth: Fortran to C++ is a downgrade. 2021-01-20T04:54:47Z aeth: From what I've seen (having programmed C++, but not having programmed Fortran), the efficiency from Fortran is more "free" than with C++, even though C++ can be as fast. 2021-01-20T04:54:54Z aeth: That is, you have to be a programmer to write efficient C++ 2021-01-20T04:58:32Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-20T05:04:25Z GZJ0X_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T05:04:42Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T05:17:09Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: hyiltiz) 2021-01-20T05:17:10Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-20T05:20:51Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T05:21:30Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-20T05:28:15Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-20T05:31:37Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-20T05:41:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T05:46:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T05:47:30Z lockywolf_: well, they've had ROOT for years, and it includes a REPL for c++, a lot of helper libraries, et cetera 2021-01-20T06:18:20Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-20T06:18:20Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-20T06:18:20Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-20T06:30:25Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-20T06:39:47Z seepel1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-20T06:49:16Z Zipheir quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T06:51:21Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-01-20T06:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T06:58:31Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-20T07:00:25Z klovett quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T07:08:04Z Irvise[m]: aeth: well, Fortran is less about how to do (optimize) things (which requires the programmer to be efficient) and more about letting the compiler do them for you. After all, it is an array programming language, which lets the compiler do an absurd amount of optimizations. 2021-01-20T07:09:38Z Irvise[m]: And there seems to be a renew interest in (modern) Fortran. Disclaimer, I may be part of it. Here is a link if someone is interested: https://fortran-lang.org/ 2021-01-20T07:12:06Z Irvise[m]: And the F2018 scheme could be pretty cool. Thanks for it lockywolf_, I will definitaly take a look at it. 2021-01-20T07:12:21Z aeth: wow, https and a modern website design, that's more than I expected from Fortran 2021-01-20T07:12:44Z aeth: Lots of Lisp/Scheme stuff doesn't have that 2021-01-20T07:13:36Z lockywolf_: Irvise[m], please, do not take it too seriously :) 2021-01-20T07:13:40Z lockywolf_: Unless you want to. 2021-01-20T07:13:56Z lockywolf_: This scheme compares symbols in O(n) 2021-01-20T07:14:18Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-20T07:14:19Z lockywolf_: you'd still need ~120 hours of work to make it useful 2021-01-20T07:23:22Z Irvise[m]: aeth: I do not blame you. Most Fortran done today is probably still pre-standard and F77. But yeah, people really want to improve it. And they have some very very shiny things. I think it is the only fully parallel/distributed language as per standard. 2021-01-20T07:24:50Z Irvise[m]: lockywolf_: I would probably write my own :) It seems like a fun project. But question, what makes it F2018 and not F2008? 2021-01-20T07:25:18Z lockywolf_: I don't remember 2021-01-20T07:25:50Z lockywolf_: I didn't deliberately introduce F2018 features in order to break compatibility. 2021-01-20T07:27:43Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T07:28:56Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T07:35:17Z aeth: /w 22 2021-01-20T07:40:47Z amirouche: /j 42 2021-01-20T07:41:15Z aeth: /spaces are near-impossible to see in IRC clients, unfortunately 2021-01-20T07:41:38Z amirouche: aeth isn't it time for you to sleep? :) 2021-01-20T07:42:03Z aeth: /perhaps 2021-01-20T07:43:52Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T07:46:51Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T07:46:55Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-20T07:46:58Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-20T07:47:06Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T07:47:27Z GZJ0X_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T07:49:21Z Irvise[m]: lockywolf_: then I think it is F2003 :) you could force gfortran to be F2003 compilant and it will tell you if there is something odd 2021-01-20T07:50:14Z lockywolf_: You can try and see if the compiler chokes :) 2021-01-20T07:50:35Z lockywolf_: I tried to use Intel too 2021-01-20T07:50:55Z lockywolf_: Scheme urges one to check one's code with more than one programming system. 2021-01-20T07:51:39Z lockywolf_: I even found a bug in gfortran in process 2021-01-20T07:51:59Z lockywolf_: I think I found a few, like 2 or 3, but only one of those was a stopper. 2021-01-20T08:00:32Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-20T08:06:37Z Irvise[m]: lockywolft_: it is 2008. The error stop is not available in 2003. And if you had used it in a pure subroutine/function, it would be 2018 (2008 does not allow error stop in pure routines) 2021-01-20T08:15:06Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T08:15:27Z GZJ0X_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T08:34:16Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-20T08:38:23Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T08:38:45Z mirrorbird_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T08:40:40Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T08:40:59Z GZJ0X_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T08:41:11Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T08:41:13Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T09:06:59Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-20T09:10:01Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-20T09:25:05Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T09:25:26Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T09:35:51Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T09:40:45Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-20T09:40:48Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-20T10:26:26Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-20T10:33:02Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-20T10:55:12Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-20T10:57:52Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T10:58:05Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T10:58:27Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T10:58:27Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-20T11:28:56Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-20T11:37:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T11:37:51Z LeoNerd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T11:38:21Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-01-20T11:41:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T12:09:01Z mirrorbird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T12:09:16Z mirrorbird_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T12:24:36Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-20T12:25:42Z jealousmonk joined #scheme 2021-01-20T12:27:36Z rubic88 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-20T12:28:56Z rubic88 joined #scheme 2021-01-20T12:31:17Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-20T12:32:52Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T12:36:05Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T12:40:20Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-20T12:50:56Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-20T12:53:39Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-20T12:55:51Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-20T13:01:06Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T13:01:27Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T13:06:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T13:11:22Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T13:13:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T13:14:36Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-20T13:17:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T13:24:02Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-20T13:25:56Z dukester\0 joined #scheme 2021-01-20T13:27:47Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-20T13:36:43Z dukester\0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-20T13:56:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-20T13:58:05Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-20T13:58:32Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-20T14:05:06Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T14:05:27Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T14:06:06Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T14:06:28Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T14:06:29Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-20T14:07:05Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T14:07:29Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T14:08:05Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T14:08:30Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T14:12:06Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T14:12:29Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T14:21:55Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-20T14:41:30Z mangol: epony: is google really phasing out python? if so, that's huge news, and what will they use instead? 2021-01-20T14:49:26Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T14:50:23Z jcowan: There is simply no predicting which language win the popularity contest. Python 1.0 came out in 1994, Perl 1.0 in 1987, so Perl is not substantially older, and it had a huge first-mover advantage. Yet Python dominates Perl today. 2021-01-20T14:52:50Z mangol: python and javascript are not "weird" in the way that perl and smalltalk and lisp are 2021-01-20T14:53:23Z LeoNerd: Newbies are afraid of punctuation symbols 2021-01-20T14:53:41Z mangol: perhaps it's not possible to predict which language will win, but it may be safe to exclude weird languages from the set of contenders 2021-01-20T14:54:05Z mangol: at least on a medium timescale. long-term, lisp and smalltalk have done well 2021-01-20T14:55:40Z mangol: and even Go from the unix camp has GC and closures now, so lisp is partially vindicated there as well. 2021-01-20T14:56:04Z LeoNerd: Prettymuch any sensible language eventually gains closures... I believe Java 8ish got them? 2021-01-20T14:56:24Z mangol: and C++ has some kind of lambda now 2021-01-20T14:57:19Z mangol: perhaps it's most acccurate to say that programmers need powerful features in the engine room, and will flock to whatever is the least weird alternative that provides a serviceable version of those features 2021-01-20T14:57:40Z mangol: perl was really popular until python came along and did the same stuff in a less weird way 2021-01-20T14:57:48Z LeoNerd: Haha "all" 2021-01-20T14:59:15Z mangol: static typing is facing the same pains now that lisp GC/closures faced back in their day. type systems are fun and all, but how do you make them _not weird_? 2021-01-20T14:59:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T15:00:28Z LeoNerd: I think "weird" is all relative, though 2021-01-20T15:00:31Z mangol: the solution, as with GC, is to make them automatic. but people who love developing type systems don't like their work being automated and hidden 2021-01-20T15:00:43Z LeoNerd: There's an entire generation of folks whose first language was Java being taught at college/university/etc... 2021-01-20T15:01:02Z LeoNerd: So to them, anything that isn't single-dynamic dispatch OO with invocant.method(args) style notation, is "weird" 2021-01-20T15:01:25Z mangol: yeah weird mostly about fashion. and math class has a huge impact on those fashions. algebra is what looks normal 2021-01-20T15:01:47Z LeoNerd: Ohyeah, that's another thing. It's all about the tiny surface notation, to some people 2021-01-20T15:01:59Z LeoNerd: Folks who are perfectly happy with 1+2+3 go all to pieces when they see (+ 1 2 3) 2021-01-20T15:02:07Z mangol: life is almost entirely about the surface to most people 2021-01-20T15:02:16Z mangol: as are most vocations 2021-01-20T15:02:31Z LeoNerd: And I've lost count of the number of people new to Perl, who get upset about $invocant->method as a notation, and demand... /demand/ that be spelled with a dot instead of an arrow 2021-01-20T15:02:42Z mangol: even with the best of intentions, it takes long study to get beneath the surface of any subject 2021-01-20T15:03:36Z mangol: add to it that abstraction is one of the rarest skills in existence, and a good programming language is to a large degree about better abstraction 2021-01-20T15:03:40Z LeoNerd: On such people, I don't even bother to question their idea of /the/ (singular) invocant of an object. I feel that CLOS-style multiple dynamic dispatch would be too much for some people 2021-01-20T15:04:54Z mangol: indeed it probably would be. and that's probably not a fashion thing but an abstraction thing 2021-01-20T15:05:21Z mangol: there's a lot of sense i that attitude too. simple problems should have simple solutions, or the solution designers have failed. 2021-01-20T15:05:57Z mangol: if someone just wants to write visual basic applications that help people run a small business for example, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that 2021-01-20T15:06:56Z mangol: the failures of CSS are in large part due to dispatch being too complicated 2021-01-20T15:08:17Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-20T15:09:16Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-20T15:09:44Z mangol: anyway the practical situation lisp is facing is that we need to go visual. that's how we can give friendly window dressing to macros and hide the parentheses without compromising on our values. 2021-01-20T15:10:52Z mangol: every other language community is busy trying to extract every last drop of expressivity from the dry pulp of ASCII. we've had the wisdom not to do that 2021-01-20T15:10:54Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-20T15:11:12Z mangol: we can skip that nonsense and go directly to the next generation of code representation 2021-01-20T15:11:37Z mangol: where a Lisp macro is a GUI widget, and the S-expression representation humming underneath in the engine room is a formality 2021-01-20T15:20:23Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T15:21:20Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-20T15:28:28Z mangol: anyway apart from doing those macros we should find some good graphic designers to make the window dressing appealing 2021-01-20T15:28:56Z mangol: we'll be the first general-purpose programming language that has graphic designers working on the language itself 2021-01-20T15:29:05Z bitwize: If I had a nickel for every time someone has told me that "visual programming" was the next step in evolution and would solve so many problems with programming, I could buy some really swanky coffee 2021-01-20T15:29:32Z mangol: can you argue from first principles that it's not? 2021-01-20T15:29:50Z mangol: first of all, it can mean very different things 2021-01-20T15:30:29Z bitwize: I can argue from "history is littered with the wreckage of failed visual programming systems" 2021-01-20T15:30:34Z bitwize: The problem is one of SCALE 2021-01-20T15:31:08Z bitwize: Visual programming is great for teaching the elements of programming to people who struggle with computational thinking -- for example children, or middle managers 2021-01-20T15:31:24Z mangol: are you talking about structural editing of syntax trees, or about a dataflow, boxes-and-arrows style program representation? 2021-01-20T15:32:01Z bitwize: I'm talking about both 2021-01-20T15:32:18Z mangol: okay, can we examine one of them at a time? 2021-01-20T15:32:34Z mangol: because i don't think the same arguments will apply, unless you've got some really left-field perspective 2021-01-20T15:32:45Z mangol: i mean, text is visual :D 2021-01-20T15:33:04Z bitwize: Similar problems tend to come up: 2021-01-20T15:33:06Z mangol: so any text-based representation is to most programmers a visual representation 2021-01-20T15:33:12Z mangol: just a really impoverished one 2021-01-20T15:33:53Z bitwize: 1) Graphical representations of programs tend to become cumbersome to read once a certain complexity threshold is passed 2021-01-20T15:35:13Z jcowan: The only viz prog environment I've ever used successfully was for coarse-grained dataflow, along the lines of Unix pipes but with multiple inputs and outputs available. 2021-01-20T15:35:25Z bitwize: 2) Rat wrestling is much slower and more cumbersome than typing at scale -- there's a reason why the most advanced programmers' editors have primarily keyboard driven interfaces 2021-01-20T15:37:40Z mangol: okay. more arguments? 2021-01-20T15:37:48Z bitwize: 3) Textual representations are easier to work with than graphical representations: they can be read by human or machine with the aid of only simple tools, searched, and compared, very easily. The same for making changes, whether small singular changes or large in-bulk changes. New tools can be developed relatively easily to manipulate the text constituting a program, and the results evaluated immediately 2021-01-20T15:37:54Z bitwize: for someone who knows how to read code 2021-01-20T15:38:51Z Riastradh: a picture is worth a thousand words of instruction memory 2021-01-20T15:39:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-20T15:40:51Z mangol: i don't want to interject before you've made your case since you may have some perspective i've missed 2021-01-20T15:41:26Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-20T15:44:56Z bitwize: 5) Graphical representations by contrast raise ugly spectres of internal representation: typically, you need *specific* tools to even read graphical programs, let alone compare, analyze, or manipulate them 2021-01-20T15:45:44Z bitwize: Even if the formats were open, you would need more than the "simple hand tools" many programmers (e.g. Unix aficionados) use to analyze or transform their code 2021-01-20T15:46:36Z bitwize: A graphical skin over some textual representation may be useful to some people, but it looks like you're not arguing for that. 2021-01-20T15:47:03Z bitwize: You're arguing for graphical to become the dominant paradigm for code authorship 2021-01-20T15:47:16Z klovett quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T15:47:40Z Riastradh: drawing programs in perspective -- vanishing code at infinity, maybe incorproate curvilinear programming for optimal simplexity 2021-01-20T15:47:40Z bitwize: It's been tried -- and rejected -- so many times, now, the closest we've come is things like Visual Basic, which still uses text for the actual program logic and comes with drawbacks of its own 2021-01-20T15:47:52Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-20T15:48:56Z bitwize: Riastradh: Unreal Engine developers' heads would explode if Blueprints had those features 2021-01-20T15:49:33Z bitwize: Blueprints already become unmanageable hairballs when you try to encode interesting behaviors in them 2021-01-20T15:51:43Z mangol: ok. let me know when you've made your case :) 2021-01-20T15:52:05Z bitwize: It doesn't sound like you're convinced. 2021-01-20T15:52:26Z mangol: i'm patient because the topic is really important 2021-01-20T15:52:44Z bitwize: I don't think it is. 2021-01-20T15:53:13Z bitwize: I think it's bike-shed levels of importance. 2021-01-20T15:53:37Z mangol: and fun to finally have a wider discussion about. i tried to put on miles davis' birth of the cool (1950) for the occasion but the music is so riveting it's hard to think straight 2021-01-20T15:53:43Z Riastradh: inspiring bike-shed levels of discussion! 2021-01-20T15:54:16Z bitwize: It's been done to death and it's failed every time, yet still programmers get this particular bug in their ears 2021-01-20T15:57:58Z mangol: ok. more arguments? 2021-01-20T16:01:24Z bitwize: To the point where SV is currently hot 'n' bothered for "low code"/"no code" environments, which are virtually identical to the CASE tools of the 90s (remember those?) except "in the cloud" 2021-01-20T16:03:29Z bitwize: Lisp won't gain any more users, nor become more relevant as a programming language by "going visual". It may work for instructional tools but not for software engineering tools. Successfully programming in Lisp will still require a Lisp programmer's mindset -- which is rare in practice and something not many people wish to develop -- not when JavaScript suffices for their purposes. 2021-01-20T16:03:38Z bitwize: I'm done with this topic. It's fruitless to continue. 2021-01-20T16:04:13Z mangol: we come back to the dry pulp 2021-01-20T16:04:57Z mangol: but if you're done with the topic i can't make counterarguments 2021-01-20T16:08:16Z bitwize: As for static typing, with modern type inference it becomes a nearly unmitigated win over dynamic typing when you're programming at scale 2021-01-20T16:08:29Z mangol: one topic at a time please 2021-01-20T16:08:55Z Zipheir: Whoa, quite a discussion. 2021-01-20T16:08:59Z mangol: the channel has transformed from my raving session into your ranting session :D 2021-01-20T16:09:56Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-20T16:13:23Z mangol: crickets. could be worse. like locusts. a lot of discussion in lisp communities is historically about those. 2021-01-20T16:16:14Z bitwize: Like I said, it's not particularly fruitful to discuss a topic that's been tried many times, failed every time, and doesn't even solve an *interesting* programming problem 2021-01-20T16:16:35Z Zipheir: There are so many possible graphic schemes for representing computations that it seems impossible to say anything general about them. 2021-01-20T16:17:14Z Riastradh: what if we used ideograms roughly representing sounds emitted by a human speaking, combining code, graphics, audio, and human interpretation 2021-01-20T16:17:27Z mangol: bitwize dude lighten up. you sound disappointed. is there a reason for that? 2021-01-20T16:17:51Z mangol: failed promises? too much talk and not enough success? 2021-01-20T16:17:56Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T16:19:53Z mangol: on the topic, i don't get the impression that you're arguing from first principles very much 2021-01-20T16:20:21Z mangol: you saw some stuff that was hyped and the hype didn't pan out and you seem disappointed by your experiences 2021-01-20T16:22:21Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-20T16:22:21Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-20T16:22:21Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-20T16:22:49Z jcowan: Arguing from experience can be distorting, but (in my experience!) less so than arguing from first principles (whose first principles?) 2021-01-20T16:23:18Z Vultyre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T16:23:28Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-20T16:23:38Z mangol: the point of arguing from first principles is to find avenues of problem-solving that cannot be excluded from first principles 2021-01-20T16:23:44Z mangol: not to find the one true pathway 2021-01-20T16:24:27Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-20T16:24:31Z bitwize: There's too much psychology and ergonomics involved here to argue from first principles 2021-01-20T16:24:38Z mangol: the best way to predict the future is to invent it. you have a compelling vision, then you make bottom-up inventions from the present state toward that vision 2021-01-20T16:25:13Z mangol: if you want something, and first principles don't preclude it, then you should go for it 2021-01-20T16:25:45Z mangol: you might also want something else, and that might not be precluded either, but as long as you can't name clear roadblocks to what you want you should do that 2021-01-20T16:26:02Z mangol: because it feels better to go after what you want. and feeling good raises the odds of success in itself 2021-01-20T16:26:08Z bitwize: In that case... 2021-01-20T16:26:10Z bitwize: Go ahead 2021-01-20T16:26:14Z bitwize: Build your system 2021-01-20T16:26:16Z Zipheir: We've got some nice approaches to visual programming languages in Miller Puckette's designs (PureData, Max/MSP). 2021-01-20T16:26:29Z Zipheir: But I'm not sure that was even the topic. 2021-01-20T16:27:09Z mangol: indeed i was trying to make a distinction between visual as in structural editing of syntax trees, vs visual as in flowchart of boxes and arrows 2021-01-20T16:27:21Z Zipheir: Ah. 2021-01-20T16:27:32Z mangol: the impression i got from bitwize is that he thinks neither would work out well so the difference doesn't matter 2021-01-20T16:27:54Z mangol: whereas i think both show a great deal of promise and we've barely scratched the surface of either 2021-01-20T16:28:09Z bitwize: Max/MSP and things like Scratch suffer from the same ergonomic limitations 2021-01-20T16:28:15Z bitwize: They don't scale well. 2021-01-20T16:28:46Z bitwize: Max/MSP, things like LabVIEW, etc. benefit from being constrained to certain domains 2021-01-20T16:29:04Z Zipheir: Perhaps. I've only used PureData for audio synthesis projects, but I appreciated the intuitive approach to abstraction: Specify the inputs/outputs of a patch, draw a box around it, and now it's a black box. 2021-01-20T16:29:12Z mangol: what do you mean by scaling? the visual equivalent of a million-line program? 2021-01-20T16:30:19Z bitwize: Yes 2021-01-20T16:30:53Z Zipheir: Nothing scales to million-line programs. 2021-01-20T16:31:15Z mangol: bitwize do you think Common Lisp or C++ scale to million-line programs? 2021-01-20T16:31:43Z mangol: or perhaps more interestingly when comparing to visual programming, Smalltalk? 2021-01-20T16:32:25Z mangol: and you still didn't tell us what causes you to sound so disappointed 2021-01-20T16:32:33Z bitwize: I think programs at that scale are going to be complex to manage, period -- but forcing people into a visual, diagrammatic paradigm adds needless complexity 2021-01-20T16:33:48Z mangol: you've seen like 3 diagrammatic systems 2021-01-20T16:34:15Z bitwize: Oh, and I suppose you've seen many more? 2021-01-20T16:34:43Z mangol: code is going to be produced for hundreds or thousands of years unless technological civilization manages to vanish soon 2021-01-20T16:35:21Z Riastradh: Maybe we can turn the subject back from first principles and toward Scheme? 2021-01-20T16:35:40Z bitwize: I apologize 2021-01-20T16:35:49Z mangol: that's not what i'm saying. i'm asking why you're going by your experiences in a field that's in its infancy 2021-01-20T16:37:00Z euandreh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T16:37:47Z mangol: i don't think you have anything to apologize for. you made relevant points in a discussion that will hopefully concern scheme in the near future 2021-01-20T16:39:11Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-20T16:39:54Z Zipheir: On the point of typing, I do think we're currently throwing out a lot of potential help with vanilla dynamic typing in Scheme. The more I think about it, the more gradually-typed Scheme seems like a critical area for research. 2021-01-20T16:40:36Z mangol: Riastradh: your point about combining different forms of input and/or code representation is a good one. "sensor fusion" is a big deal in robotics, and in biology! there should be a lot more thinking along those lines 2021-01-20T16:41:30Z mangol: the core representation should be something computationally tractable such as a lambda calculus -based language. we can add layers on top of that 2021-01-20T16:44:42Z mangol: Zipheir: research on gradually-typed Scheme = Racket 2021-01-20T16:45:08Z mangol: their entire system is now gradually-typed as best i can tell 2021-01-20T16:45:14Z bitwize: I don't think it will. I don't think Scheme *has* much of a future, but if it does, a pretty notation for Scheme programs will be a mere footnote in that future 2021-01-20T16:45:47Z Zipheir: Typed Racket is the first attempt, yeah. There's been a huge amount of work in the area since the Siek & Taha paper which gave TR its start, I think. 2021-01-20T16:46:50Z bitwize: Zipheir: that's one of the reasons why Scheme doesn't have much of a future. It is a general principle that the longer you defer a decision, the more you pay for mistakes, so you want things like types to be resolved at compile time. Strong static typing is a win, and the Scheme community never embraced that except for Typed Racket. Even CL has a form of gradual typing. 2021-01-20T16:47:23Z bitwize: Static typing > dynamic typing 2021-01-20T16:47:29Z bitwize: Statically resolved object lifetimes > GC 2021-01-20T16:47:51Z bitwize: And dynamic typing and GC are two major pillars of Lisp in general 2021-01-20T16:48:02Z mangol: would you say that you have a temperamental preference for early binding? 2021-01-20T16:48:03Z Zipheir: Why be so absolute about it? It's not a competition. 2021-01-20T16:48:43Z Zipheir: There can be excellent reasons for deferring decisions about the types of some objects. 2021-01-20T16:49:04Z wasamasa: code obfuscation 2021-01-20T16:49:07Z bitwize: Zipheir: And these deferred decisions can be encoded in static type systems (e.g., sum types) 2021-01-20T16:49:09Z Zipheir: Especially in interactive programming, which is something Lisp has always been associated with. 2021-01-20T16:49:28Z Zipheir: wat 2021-01-20T16:50:45Z Zipheir: It's not quite that simple. 2021-01-20T16:51:44Z bitwize: There's a reason why Rust is eating everybody's lunch when it comes to programmer mindshare :) 2021-01-20T16:53:00Z Zipheir: Which is not particularly important unless your goal is programmer world domination. 2021-01-20T16:54:21Z bitwize: Inasmuch as one language (or a few) is chosen over others for a programming project, it *is* something of a competition 2021-01-20T16:54:57Z Zipheir: Not one that everyone cares about winning, however. 2021-01-20T16:56:31Z mangol: we need to get insight into the psychological processes that underpin the lisp and scheme communities 2021-01-20T16:56:52Z Zipheir: One very nice thing about some recent approaches to gradual typing (e.g. Wadler & Findler's "blame calculus") is that you don't have this big Dynamic blob which statically-typed values get pulled into; when a cast between types fails, blame allocation means that you'll know precisely which value caused the error. 2021-01-20T16:57:34Z mangol: isn't winning just plain fun? we should find a way to at least smuggle some winning into scheme so the people who prize their modesty highly can still get to keep it :p 2021-01-20T16:57:37Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-20T16:57:52Z mangol: all the while partaking in the win 2021-01-20T16:58:41Z bitwize: Lisp and Smalltalk make intriguing sandboxes... but when you're talking about building real-world systems that have to be maintained overtime, you *want* static typing and static resource lifetimes. 2021-01-20T16:59:30Z bitwize: Actually, I do have a favorite static-typing system for Scheme that predates typed racket... it's Pre-Scheme 2021-01-20T16:59:39Z mangol: i don't have much on an opinion on static vs dynamic typing. both should be available on a computer, but it's not clear in what proportion 2021-01-20T17:00:23Z bitwize: er "maintained over time", not "maintained overtime", although with crunch being endemic to the software industry the latter is also somewhat accurate 2021-01-20T17:07:17Z Zipheir: The Go developers disagree about static resource lifetime. 2021-01-20T17:08:40Z bitwize: The Go developers are paying for it in performance and/or RAM usage. 2021-01-20T17:09:52Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-20T17:10:06Z bitwize: And at (eurrrgh) web scale, you want to max out your CPU and RAM. CPU and memory not spent handling requests costs money and generates waste heat. 2021-01-20T17:11:19Z Zipheir: And at tiny scale as well, where you're dealing with minimal resources. 2021-01-20T17:11:45Z bitwize: Yes 2021-01-20T17:12:24Z Zipheir: The question is how to get rid of GCs without making the programmer manage everything. 2021-01-20T17:12:29Z bitwize: It really makes the most sense to have GC on personal workstations, where there's more RAM sloshing around than is likely to be occupied by any single task 2021-01-20T17:12:44Z bitwize: Yes -- and Rust has some really elegant solutions for that 2021-01-20T17:13:48Z mangol: i can't resist pointing out that the discussion is still not any less from first principles, nor any more about scheme, than the visual programming discussion was :) 2021-01-20T17:14:30Z Zipheir: The RAII thing seems to connected with notions of explicit object creation. 2021-01-20T17:14:41Z mangol: my takeaway from this small sampling is that visual programming is very controversial indeed, and static typing is surprisingly non-controversial 2021-01-20T17:14:50Z Zipheir: s/to/too/ 2021-01-20T17:17:02Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-01-20T17:17:13Z Zipheir: I was trying to talk about gradually-typed Scheme, but we migrated to Go and Rust, it seems. Anyway. 2021-01-20T17:17:54Z mangol: productive design discussions always gravitate toward other languages as well as conceptual stuff. that's a good thing in my book 2021-01-20T17:18:20Z LeoNerd: Ohyeah, speaking of gradual typing - with my Perl hat on I've been gradually (pardon the phrase) looking into it. Are there any particularly good things to read about Scheme's experimentations on that subject? Good ideas, bad ideas,... that sort of thing..? 2021-01-20T17:18:23Z mangol: i'm just trying to point out in a roundabout way the blind spot that people have about some technologies but not about others 2021-01-20T17:18:56Z mangol: especially, that people have an extreme preference for conventional things over unconventional ones regardless of what first-principles reasoning says 2021-01-20T17:19:40Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-20T17:20:23Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T17:20:31Z Zipheir: LeoNerd: Only some are Scheme-specific, but Philip Wadler has a nice bibliography of recent papers: https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/topics/blame.html 2021-01-20T17:21:43Z LeoNerd: Hrm... some amusing paper titles in there 2021-01-20T17:22:06Z LeoNerd: "Threesomes, With and Without Blame" -- I mean, really... 2021-01-20T17:22:17Z Zipheir: One of the best CS paper titles ever. :) 2021-01-20T17:22:47Z LeoNerd: I'm sure there's an XKCD where he invents an entire branch of maths purely to justify a terrible title for a talk 2021-01-20T17:23:39Z ManDay quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-20T17:24:24Z LeoNerd: Oh I see, these are in reverse chronological order. I should start at the bottom 2021-01-20T17:25:26Z LeoNerd: I'll give these a look over, thanks :) 2021-01-20T17:27:36Z topoi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-20T17:30:21Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-01-20T17:36:09Z topoi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T17:36:26Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-01-20T17:47:19Z GZJ0X__ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T17:52:01Z GZJ0X__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T17:55:25Z topoi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T18:00:55Z mirrorbird_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-20T18:05:47Z Zipheir quit (Quit: Eadem mutata resurgo.) 2021-01-20T18:18:34Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-01-20T18:22:15Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-01-20T18:22:21Z seepel1 joined #scheme 2021-01-20T18:28:40Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-20T18:36:39Z topoi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T18:40:21Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-01-20T18:43:11Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-20T18:45:38Z topoi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-20T18:55:15Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-20T18:55:59Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T18:56:12Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-20T18:58:25Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-01-20T18:59:11Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:01:09Z X-Scale` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T19:03:30Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:04:56Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-20T19:04:56Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-20T19:14:29Z topoi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T19:16:04Z klovett quit 2021-01-20T19:17:42Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:20:13Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:20:18Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:22:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-20T19:25:23Z topoi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-20T19:30:21Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:34:10Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T19:35:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:35:43Z topoi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T19:42:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:46:50Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T19:48:06Z topoi joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:48:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-20T19:58:20Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-20T20:01:19Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-20T20:03:27Z seepel1 quit (Quit: seepel1) 2021-01-20T20:04:10Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-20T20:06:08Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-20T20:19:39Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-20T20:27:11Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-20T20:31:49Z mdhughes: Perl 7 is slouching towards Bethlehem, waiting to be born. https://gist.github.com/Grinnz/be5db6b1d54b22d8e21c975d68d7a54f 2021-01-20T20:32:45Z mdhughes: If they actually manage to quit knife-fighting each other and settle on which flags "use v7;" enables, Perl 7 might not even be a bad shell language again. 2021-01-20T20:34:08Z mdhughes: I only quit using Perl because it was impossible to make it safe without copy-pasting 20-50 lines of crap into the prelude of each file. Python worked fine out of the box (but slower), Python 3 even better (and slower), Scheme better and faster. 2021-01-20T20:35:05Z mdhughes: Doubt I'd ever go back to it seriously, but I follow /r/perl now to keep informed. 2021-01-20T20:38:10Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-20T20:39:44Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-20T20:41:54Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T20:41:54Z hyiltiz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T20:41:56Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-20T20:42:36Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T20:43:07Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-20T20:43:07Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-20T20:43:07Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-20T20:43:57Z jealousmonk joined #scheme 2021-01-20T20:46:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-20T21:01:49Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-20T21:07:26Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T21:08:01Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T21:12:55Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-20T21:30:19Z gwatt: perl6 has some interesting features. I especially like the automagic `sub MAIN` into a command line argument parser. 2021-01-20T21:30:30Z gwatt: sorry, "raku", not "perl6" anymore 2021-01-20T21:31:41Z aoh quit (Changing host) 2021-01-20T21:31:41Z aoh joined #scheme 2021-01-20T21:36:38Z webshinra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-20T21:36:57Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-01-20T21:37:18Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-20T21:44:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T21:50:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-20T21:54:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T22:10:49Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-20T22:11:05Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-20T22:16:47Z civodul quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-20T22:27:03Z ngz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T22:29:11Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T22:29:47Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T22:34:16Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T22:34:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-20T23:13:37Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-20T23:14:09Z edgar-xyz joined #scheme 2021-01-20T23:36:25Z bitwize: So which'll come out first: Perl 7 or r7rs-large? 2021-01-20T23:42:27Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-20T23:43:28Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-20T23:44:31Z Vultyre_ joined #scheme 2021-01-20T23:47:19Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-20T23:55:43Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-21T00:15:49Z Vultyre_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-21T00:17:23Z lloda` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T00:17:28Z lloda`` joined #scheme 2021-01-21T00:23:58Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-21T00:24:05Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-21T00:30:58Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T00:31:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T00:33:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T00:33:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T00:33:21Z jcowan: Almost certainly Perl 7 unless it gets *completely* bogged down 2021-01-21T00:49:43Z Zipheir: Is Perl 7 to Raku as R7 is to R6? 2021-01-21T01:03:29Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-21T01:24:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T01:42:02Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T01:46:45Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T01:46:55Z gwatt: Zipheir: probably a bigger difference to be honest 2021-01-21T01:47:25Z gwatt: R6RS is still a scheme standard and has multiple implementations that no argues aren't scheme. 2021-01-21T01:47:54Z gwatt: Raku is a rename of perl 6 because everyone decided it was just too different and the names were confusing 2021-01-21T01:49:17Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T01:49:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T01:51:08Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-21T02:03:30Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-01-21T02:05:36Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T02:07:56Z dbmikus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T02:08:45Z dbmikus joined #scheme 2021-01-21T02:11:42Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2021-01-21T02:18:10Z dbmikus quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-21T02:20:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T02:20:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T02:31:43Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T02:34:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T02:35:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T02:36:04Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T02:36:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T02:56:02Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T03:03:12Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-21T03:04:58Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T03:07:53Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-21T03:11:37Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T03:17:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T03:18:56Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T03:23:09Z epony: it was just a way to say, it's not like python 2 to 3 drama 2021-01-21T03:23:23Z epony: a separate language in the same family 2021-01-21T03:32:02Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T03:32:21Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-21T03:40:45Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T03:41:32Z casaca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T03:48:54Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-01-21T03:52:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T03:53:35Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T03:55:43Z casaca joined #scheme 2021-01-21T04:02:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-21T04:04:56Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T04:10:02Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-21T04:11:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T04:18:21Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-21T04:18:51Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-21T04:19:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T04:20:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T04:27:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T04:29:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T04:35:59Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-21T04:49:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T04:51:03Z edgar-xyz joined #scheme 2021-01-21T04:53:20Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T04:54:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T05:05:23Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-21T05:05:34Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T05:07:17Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-21T05:15:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T05:19:49Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T05:24:30Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T05:25:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T05:29:23Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-21T05:36:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T05:41:51Z ArthurAGleckler joined #scheme 2021-01-21T05:41:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-21T05:42:17Z ArthurAGleckler is now known as arthurgleckler 2021-01-21T05:42:50Z arthurgleckler quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T05:55:10Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T06:07:50Z czm joined #scheme 2021-01-21T06:07:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-21T06:16:39Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-21T06:17:11Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-21T06:18:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T06:33:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-21T06:43:19Z greyeax joined #scheme 2021-01-21T06:48:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T07:00:30Z khisanth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-21T07:04:22Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-21T07:08:03Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-21T07:18:44Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-21T07:19:09Z mdhughes_ joined #scheme 2021-01-21T07:20:07Z mdhughes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-21T07:20:47Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T07:22:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T07:25:32Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T07:55:12Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-21T08:01:32Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-21T08:11:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T08:13:58Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-21T08:16:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-21T08:21:18Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-21T08:22:18Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-21T08:28:30Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T08:28:49Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-21T08:43:43Z mdhughes_ is now known as mdhughes 2021-01-21T08:45:08Z mdhughes: Perl 5->7 skips 6/Raku, it's just Perl 5 with better options chosen. It's a smaller jump than Python 2->3. 2021-01-21T08:49:08Z mdhughes: R5->R7 but yeah, R6 is not a different language like Raku is. My R5 CHICKEN code mostly ported unchanged to R6. 2021-01-21T08:50:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T08:57:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T09:00:09Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-21T09:01:59Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-21T09:04:23Z czm quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-21T09:06:49Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-21T09:08:42Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-21T09:13:51Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T09:21:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T09:23:39Z czm joined #scheme 2021-01-21T09:25:10Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-21T09:26:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T09:36:52Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-01-21T09:36:54Z hugh_marera55 joined #scheme 2021-01-21T09:39:59Z hugh_marera55 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-21T09:40:14Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-21T10:00:34Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-21T10:04:12Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-21T10:05:34Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T10:38:25Z czm quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-01-21T10:43:05Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T10:47:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T11:22:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T11:24:52Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-21T11:27:27Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T12:25:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T12:27:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T12:28:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T12:29:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T12:32:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-21T12:35:57Z miyuki1534 joined #scheme 2021-01-21T12:38:48Z miyuki1534: (erfc 1.6) 2021-01-21T12:39:01Z miyuki1534: sorry, wrong chat 2021-01-21T12:46:10Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T12:46:21Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T12:46:33Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-21T12:50:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-21T12:59:09Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T13:24:29Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T13:31:46Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-21T13:55:10Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-21T13:59:01Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:01:42Z paulj quit (Quit: Asta la vista) 2021-01-21T14:02:53Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:06:26Z paulj quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-21T14:06:35Z zmv joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:07:12Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:09:37Z paulj quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-21T14:11:02Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:11:08Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-21T14:13:24Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T14:13:36Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:14:00Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:19:49Z tumdum quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-21T14:19:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T14:22:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:22:15Z paulj quit (Quit: Asta la vista) 2021-01-21T14:22:36Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:22:42Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T14:25:56Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-21T14:27:24Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:31:19Z heredoc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-21T14:31:52Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:37:07Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-21T14:42:26Z Vultyre_ joined #scheme 2021-01-21T14:59:40Z sm2n_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-21T15:00:01Z heredoc joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:00:12Z tumdum joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:00:29Z sm2n_ joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:01:37Z miyuki1534 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T15:08:46Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:19:36Z Irvise[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-21T15:19:37Z Ericson2314 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-21T15:19:37Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-21T15:21:33Z null_radix[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-21T15:21:34Z deselby quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-21T15:21:34Z siraben quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-21T15:21:34Z mbakke quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-21T15:21:34Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-21T15:21:34Z dieggsy quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-21T15:22:22Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T15:22:22Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T15:22:43Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:22:55Z nckx joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:23:00Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-21T15:23:17Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:27:38Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:31:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:34:23Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:34:23Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:34:23Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:34:23Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:34:23Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:34:23Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:34:23Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:34:23Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:36:20Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T15:37:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T15:39:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:44:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-21T15:48:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T15:56:19Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T16:03:22Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-21T16:03:31Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-21T16:03:57Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-21T16:50:50Z gproto23 joined #scheme 2021-01-21T16:51:45Z gproto23 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-21T16:51:55Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-21T16:53:16Z zmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T16:56:29Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-21T17:07:16Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-21T17:19:20Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-21T17:54:18Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T17:54:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T18:00:03Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-21T18:11:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T18:33:07Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-21T18:34:44Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-21T18:39:16Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-21T18:42:24Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T18:43:37Z fjt joined #scheme 2021-01-21T18:44:49Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-21T18:46:37Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-21T18:52:20Z fjt quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-21T18:58:44Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-21T19:00:44Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-21T19:00:44Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-21T19:00:44Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-21T19:03:43Z tumdum quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-21T19:07:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T19:11:23Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-21T19:27:59Z stephe quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-21T19:28:22Z stephe joined #scheme 2021-01-21T19:45:05Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T19:57:48Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T20:00:04Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-21T20:04:04Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-21T20:09:19Z etothpiiminus1 joined #scheme 2021-01-21T20:12:39Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-21T20:14:22Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-01-21T20:14:22Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T20:14:45Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T20:15:19Z etothpiiminus1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T20:15:44Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-21T20:22:23Z etothpiiminus1 joined #scheme 2021-01-21T20:23:39Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-21T20:27:47Z etothpiiminus1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T20:33:59Z etothpiiminus1 joined #scheme 2021-01-21T20:38:36Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-21T20:41:57Z klovett_ is now known as klovett 2021-01-21T20:43:40Z etothpiiminus1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T20:43:49Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-21T21:02:13Z greyeax quit (Quit: greyeax) 2021-01-21T21:12:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T21:14:26Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-21T21:30:37Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-21T21:32:09Z zmv joined #scheme 2021-01-21T21:32:09Z zmv quit (Changing host) 2021-01-21T21:32:09Z zmv joined #scheme 2021-01-21T21:33:46Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T21:35:05Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T21:39:59Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-21T22:01:55Z zmv is now known as livoreno 2021-01-21T22:11:41Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T22:17:33Z Vultyre_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-21T22:20:20Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T22:21:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-21T22:26:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T22:41:26Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-21T22:43:07Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-21T22:51:28Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T22:54:51Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-21T23:02:29Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-21T23:05:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-21T23:07:12Z [d] quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-21T23:07:19Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-21T23:07:37Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-21T23:13:59Z aquijoule_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-21T23:25:59Z Riastradh: random thought: notation 16z1.2345 for (* (expt 10 16) 1.2345). Emphasizes the order of magnitude first, then the significant digits. (Can't remember who suggested this to me years ago.) 2021-01-21T23:34:56Z jcowan: although perhaps 16ɘ1.2345 would be better 2021-01-21T23:35:02Z Riastradh: heh 2021-01-21T23:35:08Z Riastradh: pacmantissa 2021-01-21T23:35:31Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-21T23:36:54Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-21T23:53:57Z siiky quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-21T23:54:47Z cer0 joined #scheme 2021-01-21T23:54:56Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-21T23:55:06Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-21T23:56:10Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-21T23:59:00Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T00:01:00Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-22T00:01:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T00:23:25Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T00:24:22Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T00:24:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T00:25:13Z foof: k640 ought to be enough for anybody 2021-01-22T00:27:12Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T00:27:32Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-22T00:29:52Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T00:34:02Z woky quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-22T00:37:04Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T00:41:36Z tryte quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T00:41:36Z hendursaga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T00:41:36Z madage quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T00:41:36Z xelxebar quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T00:41:36Z cantstanya quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T00:53:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T00:54:48Z woky joined #scheme 2021-01-22T00:58:34Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-22T01:03:39Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-22T01:04:35Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-22T01:04:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-22T01:05:37Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T01:10:09Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T01:11:20Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T01:12:58Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-22T01:37:34Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-22T01:42:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T01:50:32Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T01:50:37Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T01:51:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T01:52:19Z cer0 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-22T01:56:20Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T01:58:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T02:16:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T02:31:36Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-22T02:39:42Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-22T02:44:58Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-22T02:46:21Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T02:46:34Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-22T02:50:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-22T02:51:36Z acacio joined #scheme 2021-01-22T02:58:12Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T02:58:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T02:58:53Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-22T03:00:33Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-22T03:10:58Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T03:12:41Z acacio quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-22T03:17:23Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-22T03:17:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T03:18:15Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-22T03:36:02Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T03:46:51Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T03:47:26Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T03:48:56Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-22T03:52:14Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-22T03:54:01Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T03:54:04Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T03:54:42Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-22T03:55:46Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-22T03:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T03:58:20Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-22T04:04:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T04:30:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T04:36:55Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-22T04:42:19Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-22T04:46:27Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T04:46:49Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-22T05:04:21Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T05:07:57Z zmv joined #scheme 2021-01-22T05:07:57Z zmv quit (Changing host) 2021-01-22T05:07:57Z zmv joined #scheme 2021-01-22T05:10:57Z livoreno quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T05:20:49Z passchaos joined #scheme 2021-01-22T05:21:29Z passchaos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T05:34:43Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T05:34:56Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-22T05:51:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T05:55:35Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T06:53:17Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T06:58:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T07:10:58Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-22T07:18:46Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-22T07:34:54Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T07:35:12Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-22T07:39:17Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-22T07:41:17Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T07:51:15Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T07:52:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T07:54:17Z euandreh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T07:54:37Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-22T07:54:44Z euandreh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-22T07:59:33Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T08:01:46Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T08:02:57Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-22T08:06:02Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T08:06:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-22T08:16:31Z chateau1942 joined #scheme 2021-01-22T08:17:16Z chateau1942: does anyone want to study sicp with me? 2021-01-22T08:17:47Z chateau1942 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-22T08:20:39Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T08:25:48Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-22T08:29:40Z klovett quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-22T08:30:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T08:32:32Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-22T08:35:19Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T08:36:53Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-22T08:38:36Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-22T08:52:00Z zmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:06:28Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:09:14Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:14:08Z Irvise[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T09:14:08Z null_radix[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T09:14:08Z Ericson2314 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T09:14:08Z ArneBab quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T09:14:08Z astronavt quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T09:14:08Z iv-so quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T09:14:08Z zgrep quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-22T09:15:04Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:15:04Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:15:04Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:15:04Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:15:04Z zgrep joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:15:04Z iv-so joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:15:18Z astronavt joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:16:57Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:17:42Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:17:52Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:17:53Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:18:05Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:18:05Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:18:13Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:18:20Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:20:50Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:21:26Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:22:02Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:24:00Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-22T09:24:45Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:24:58Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:26:05Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:26:27Z fjt joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:30:54Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T09:48:26Z fjt quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-01-22T09:48:49Z fjt joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:52:42Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T09:57:29Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T10:06:35Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:13:47Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:13:47Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:13:47Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:13:47Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:13:47Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:13:47Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:13:47Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:13:47Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:20:52Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-22T10:24:54Z grobe0ba joined #scheme 2021-01-22T10:52:32Z lloda``: the dot seems unnecessary 2021-01-22T11:00:37Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-22T11:01:07Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T11:03:00Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T11:04:01Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-22T11:06:12Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T11:14:03Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-22T11:14:32Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T11:16:13Z fjt quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-22T11:18:48Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T11:26:40Z Fare joined #scheme 2021-01-22T11:28:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T11:29:23Z siiky joined #scheme 2021-01-22T11:33:06Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-22T11:36:09Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T12:10:57Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T12:15:09Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T12:29:12Z fjt joined #scheme 2021-01-22T13:29:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T13:34:57Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T13:48:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T13:50:28Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-22T13:53:51Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T13:55:09Z acacio joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:00:58Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:01:31Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-22T14:02:08Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:05:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-22T14:11:47Z fjt quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-22T14:30:11Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:30:57Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T14:34:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T14:36:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:39:31Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T14:40:53Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:42:02Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:42:57Z MysteriousSilver joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:43:05Z MysteriousSilver left #scheme 2021-01-22T14:49:30Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:53:45Z Vultyre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-22T14:54:00Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-22T14:55:42Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-22T14:55:42Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-22T15:06:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T15:10:33Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-22T15:11:54Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T15:19:52Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-22T15:22:50Z averell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T15:22:54Z cer0 joined #scheme 2021-01-22T15:26:04Z averell joined #scheme 2021-01-22T15:27:01Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T15:31:35Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-22T15:36:02Z gwatt: lloda``: how so? 2021-01-22T15:51:36Z lloda``: there's no reason to write 16z1.2345 when you can write 17z12345 and assume the decimal position 2021-01-22T15:55:05Z gwatt: I guess. I think the clairty of the decimal point helps though 2021-01-22T15:56:32Z Riastradh: Write hexadecimal, use x instead of z; coincides with traditional 0x0123456789abcdef notation when there is no (hexa)decimal point! 2021-01-22T15:58:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T16:03:27Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-22T16:03:38Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-22T16:04:35Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-22T16:08:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T16:09:41Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-22T16:16:42Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-22T16:16:54Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-22T16:17:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T16:21:01Z jcowan: There should be a way to convert floats to strings in a bit-for-bit reproducible way. Currently it can be done as a bytevector, but that's pretty long. 2021-01-22T16:21:24Z Vultyre quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-22T16:21:33Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-22T16:31:36Z Riastradh: (let* ((x (random-real)) 2021-01-22T16:31:36Z Riastradh: (s (number->string x #x10))) 2021-01-22T16:31:36Z Riastradh: (list s (= (string->number (string-append "#x" s)) x))) 2021-01-22T16:31:36Z Riastradh: ;Value: ("1.6ecfc39057374p-1" #t) 2021-01-22T16:36:56Z jcowan: Is there a connection between the use of "shift" and "reset" for delimited continuations, and the same terms in LR parsing? 2021-01-22T16:37:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-22T16:38:06Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-22T16:38:10Z dieggsy: Riastradh: what scheme are you using? 2021-01-22T16:38:43Z dieggsy: or is that more of a concept 2021-01-22T16:38:47Z dieggsy: chicken doesn't actually do base conversion on floats 2021-01-22T16:43:38Z Riastradh: mit-scheme 2021-01-22T16:43:59Z Riastradh: same notation as printf("%a") in C 2021-01-22T16:45:17Z Riastradh: compactly and, for all binary (or even radix-2^n) floating-point formats, exactly represents the number without rounding 2021-01-22T16:47:32Z Riastradh: should be standardized 2021-01-22T17:04:31Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T17:05:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T17:10:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T17:10:57Z cer0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T17:27:18Z cer0 joined #scheme 2021-01-22T17:33:31Z gnomon quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-22T17:35:27Z siiky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T17:35:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T17:38:43Z z-memory joined #scheme 2021-01-22T17:39:56Z gnomon joined #scheme 2021-01-22T17:42:55Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-01-22T17:56:04Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-01-22T17:56:38Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-01-22T17:57:54Z catonano quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-22T17:58:32Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-01-22T18:08:58Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-01-22T18:12:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T18:15:58Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T18:18:46Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-01-22T18:18:47Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-22T18:30:51Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T18:34:11Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T18:36:48Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-22T18:37:25Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-22T18:54:07Z siiky joined #scheme 2021-01-22T19:06:08Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T19:09:28Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-22T19:09:29Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-22T19:09:29Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-22T19:16:26Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T19:25:56Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T19:28:17Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-22T19:28:18Z hyiltiz quit (Changing host) 2021-01-22T19:28:18Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-22T19:34:29Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-22T19:43:08Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-22T19:45:44Z z-memory quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-22T19:55:34Z greyeax joined #scheme 2021-01-22T19:55:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T20:02:24Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T20:24:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T20:34:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T20:38:46Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-22T20:42:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T20:48:34Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T20:49:19Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-22T20:54:46Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T20:58:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T20:59:32Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T21:09:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T21:13:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T21:13:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T21:29:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T21:29:29Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-22T21:29:50Z nckx joined #scheme 2021-01-22T21:33:44Z sp1ff joined #scheme 2021-01-22T21:48:47Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-22T21:50:41Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-22T22:00:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-22T22:04:59Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T22:05:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T22:08:20Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T22:08:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T22:18:44Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-22T22:33:16Z acacio quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-01-22T22:41:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T22:43:59Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-22T22:44:07Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-22T22:49:20Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T23:11:04Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-22T23:11:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T23:16:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-22T23:18:43Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-22T23:19:24Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-22T23:24:58Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-22T23:25:17Z snits joined #scheme 2021-01-22T23:35:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-22T23:39:20Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-01-22T23:53:02Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T00:05:37Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-23T00:11:32Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-23T00:16:21Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-23T00:25:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T00:30:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T00:39:01Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-23T00:44:25Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-23T00:45:58Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-23T00:46:19Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-23T00:48:29Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-23T00:55:28Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-23T00:58:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:03:24Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T01:03:28Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:05:19Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:10:23Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-23T01:10:57Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:14:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T01:18:18Z tryte_ joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:19:52Z tryte quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-23T01:27:59Z catonano_ joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:30:56Z catonano quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T01:30:56Z catonano_ is now known as catonano 2021-01-23T01:36:28Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:41:32Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T01:42:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:47:00Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-23T01:47:46Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:51:50Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-23T01:52:02Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T01:52:05Z imode quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-23T01:52:24Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-23T02:06:11Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T02:11:17Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T02:21:08Z cer0 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-23T02:21:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T02:27:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T02:27:51Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T02:32:17Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T02:36:00Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T02:36:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T02:41:05Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T02:44:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T02:47:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T02:49:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T02:54:56Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T03:00:31Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T03:04:15Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T03:07:49Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T03:08:09Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-23T03:19:53Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T03:28:15Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T03:28:50Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-23T03:29:43Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T03:31:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T03:36:08Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T03:42:10Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T03:49:20Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T03:51:00Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-23T04:03:12Z tryte_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T04:03:25Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-23T04:08:46Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-23T04:20:42Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-23T04:29:15Z cubedfire joined #scheme 2021-01-23T04:30:20Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T04:32:40Z cubedfire left #scheme 2021-01-23T04:37:08Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-23T04:47:39Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T04:52:12Z epony joined #scheme 2021-01-23T05:00:00Z dsp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T05:00:06Z dsp joined #scheme 2021-01-23T05:00:33Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-23T05:15:34Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-23T05:34:41Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-23T05:43:02Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-01-23T06:12:13Z shawnw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T06:12:33Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-23T06:18:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T06:30:48Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T06:43:02Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-01-23T06:44:02Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-01-23T06:53:40Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T06:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T06:58:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-23T07:06:43Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-01-23T07:07:19Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-01-23T07:10:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T07:13:26Z catonano quit (Quit: catonano) 2021-01-23T07:14:57Z catonano joined #scheme 2021-01-23T07:17:24Z catonano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-23T07:20:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T07:32:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T07:34:27Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-23T07:37:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T07:46:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T07:49:52Z imode quit (Quit: Sleep.) 2021-01-23T07:50:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T07:56:45Z tryte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T07:56:58Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-23T08:00:38Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T08:10:41Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T08:14:56Z amirouche: excellent thread on srfi-121 about how to optimize generators for guile. 2021-01-23T08:15:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T08:40:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T08:44:58Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T08:54:26Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T08:54:39Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-01-23T08:54:39Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2021-01-23T08:54:39Z tessier joined #scheme 2021-01-23T08:56:26Z pounce quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T08:59:00Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:02:12Z pounce joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:04:36Z ArneBab quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-23T09:04:36Z iv-so quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-23T09:04:36Z zgrep quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-23T09:06:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:06:37Z zgrep joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:06:37Z iv-so joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:06:49Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:07:20Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:07:47Z nckx joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:09:46Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:10:00Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:10:12Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:10:13Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:10:15Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:10:16Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:10:40Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:10:51Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:12:26Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:12:56Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:28:52Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:29:14Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:29:26Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:30:37Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-23T09:34:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:34:59Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:38:38Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:39:45Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:39:56Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:42:43Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:44:56Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:44:57Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-23T09:55:25Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:55:56Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:55:56Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:56:06Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T09:56:24Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T10:06:16Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:15:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:17:39Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:20:32Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-23T10:24:16Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:24:16Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:24:16Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:24:16Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:24:16Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:24:16Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:24:16Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:24:16Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-23T10:27:45Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T11:09:53Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T11:14:51Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-23T11:35:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T11:37:34Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-23T11:39:24Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T11:53:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T11:58:20Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T12:32:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T12:36:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T12:45:36Z ggole joined #scheme 2021-01-23T12:53:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T13:07:03Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-23T13:25:30Z siiky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T13:36:03Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T13:40:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T13:43:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T13:48:31Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T13:50:04Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-23T13:50:37Z euandreh_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T13:59:20Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T14:12:20Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-23T14:18:28Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T14:19:08Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-23T14:21:17Z euandreh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-23T14:22:47Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T14:35:11Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-23T14:37:58Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T14:47:35Z Riastradh: jcowan: Is `reset' a thing in LR parsing? 2021-01-23T14:47:46Z Riastradh: `reduce', yes; `reset'? 2021-01-23T15:04:19Z siiky joined #scheme 2021-01-23T15:04:45Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T15:11:39Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T16:01:48Z jcowan: Riastradh: Oops, brain fart on my part 2021-01-23T16:08:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T16:08:57Z brown121407 joined #scheme 2021-01-23T16:27:25Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-23T16:58:13Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T16:59:33Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T17:05:06Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-23T17:20:20Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T17:26:04Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T17:30:09Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T17:34:55Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T17:44:17Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T17:44:53Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-23T18:00:49Z rgherdt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-23T18:01:07Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-23T18:02:53Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T18:03:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T18:08:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T18:14:51Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T18:19:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T18:20:25Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-23T18:38:56Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-23T18:39:14Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T18:40:52Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T18:41:46Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T19:01:06Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T19:01:22Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-23T19:15:32Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-01-23T19:19:07Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T19:25:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T19:39:16Z nckx[2] joined #scheme 2021-01-23T19:39:19Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T19:41:03Z nckx[2] is now known as nckx 2021-01-23T19:48:19Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T19:50:24Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-23T19:52:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T19:54:10Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-23T20:00:10Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-23T20:01:40Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T20:02:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T20:06:53Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T20:08:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T20:11:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T20:17:59Z amirouche: what do you think of mutation testing ? 2021-01-23T20:18:42Z amirouche: the principle is along the line of mutating the code that is tested, and check whether tests still pass. If tests pass, the "mutation test" is considered FAILED. 2021-01-23T20:19:03Z amirouche: and it means that you tests are faulty. 2021-01-23T20:19:26Z amirouche: (it seems to me it also allows to find out about problems in code that are not tests) 2021-01-23T20:21:00Z Riastradh: Simpler version: commit xfail test, then commit fix and remove xfail 2021-01-23T20:21:52Z amirouche: no that is not that 2021-01-23T20:22:00Z amirouche: you take your code working with tests green. 2021-01-23T20:22:21Z amirouche: you change the code slightly, and run tests, if it is still green, then tests are dubious. 2021-01-23T20:25:11Z Zipheir: How do you ensure that the change to the code is really a change? 2021-01-23T20:25:33Z Riastradh: Sure -- not the same thing, just a similar principle that can be easily incorporated in a development process. 2021-01-23T20:25:45Z Zipheir: That is, how do you ensure that your changing a correct expression produces an incorrect one? 2021-01-23T20:27:35Z Zipheir: If you can't prove that what you're testing is an absurdity, then you're just testing some other expression and trying to deduce things from that, which seems dubious. 2021-01-23T20:29:06Z Zipheir: If I change (number? 10) to (number? 4), I haven't created something that should fail. 2021-01-23T20:29:57Z jcowan: And if you change it to (nubmer? 10) it will fail, but for trivial reasons. 2021-01-23T20:29:58Z Zipheir: And if I change (number? 10) to (this-procedure-is-not-defined 4), that it fails tells me nothing about my tests for number?. 2021-01-23T20:30:06Z Zipheir: jinx. 2021-01-23T20:31:14Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-23T20:36:07Z amirouche: yeah, but that is trivial example 2021-01-23T20:38:48Z Zipheir: And so it's probably easier to deal with than practical ones. 2021-01-23T20:41:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T20:41:42Z amirouche: for instance, imagine you have some algorithm to compute the a sum, something along the line of (apply + numbers), the mutation, might replace + with - 2021-01-23T20:41:51Z amirouche: if the test does not fail, then the test is broken 2021-01-23T20:43:52Z amirouche: I am working with another language that will remain anonymous, where arthitmetique and subscript can be subject of mutation. 2021-01-23T20:44:04Z wasamasa: lol 2021-01-23T20:44:13Z wasamasa: is it related to your database adventures in scheme? 2021-01-23T20:44:21Z amirouche: Then, I think about droping random lines of code too. 2021-01-23T20:44:27Z amirouche: not really :D 2021-01-23T20:45:25Z amirouche: I am trying to prove a point at work that I am a capable dev... to the extent that they can realize they dream project.. so far i failed, I even manged to make enemies. 2021-01-23T20:45:52Z amirouche: enmemies was obvious to me, but management is going the enemies route too. 2021-01-23T20:50:48Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T20:51:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T20:55:40Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-23T21:02:50Z ggole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T21:06:28Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-23T21:20:58Z belmarca95 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T21:29:23Z belmarca95 joined #scheme 2021-01-23T21:31:38Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-23T21:43:30Z mangol: amirouche: sorry to hear about your experiences at work :( 2021-01-23T21:45:38Z Zipheir: amirouche: What if `numbers' is (0 0 0 ...)? Then (apply + numbers) and (apply - numbers) should both pass. 2021-01-23T21:46:02Z amirouche: Zipheir: meh... 2021-01-23T21:46:59Z Zipheir: The problem is that, given a theorem (a test), you need to deduce a claim that is false iff the original theorem is true. That's a bigger problem than just changing some characters. 2021-01-23T21:48:25Z Zipheir: It's an interesting challenge, but I think type information will be necessary; otherwise, we don't even have access to what's being claimed (Curry-Howard all the way). 2021-01-23T22:03:51Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T22:08:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T22:13:54Z amirouche: you are correct, with type information it is easier to randomly create mutation that are sensible and might lead to discover bugs 2021-01-23T22:14:37Z amirouche: that why I mentioned arithmetic, it is easy to change the operations because the types are known 2021-01-23T22:16:09Z amirouche: similarly with slices / subscripts it is easy to randomly pick another slice, similarly with numbers and strings 2021-01-23T22:16:28Z amirouche: tho it is fun. 2021-01-23T22:17:09Z amirouche: also, I ran a tool like that on $WORK code base, it took 3 hours and found around 9000 mutations that are dubious. 2021-01-23T22:17:20Z amirouche: 9000 dubious mutations out of 10 000 2021-01-23T22:18:00Z amirouche: I forgot to activate coverage information, and since coverage is low at 60% most of those mutations are on code that is not tested. 2021-01-23T22:18:23Z amirouche: anyway fun 2021-01-23T22:18:36Z amirouche: (3 hours on 24 cores) 2021-01-23T22:19:29Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-23T22:19:38Z Zipheir: Wow. 2021-01-23T22:20:31Z Zipheir: Actually, my latter thought was nonsense. Generating a type-error would be trivial. 2021-01-23T22:26:15Z aeth: heh, 24 cores 2021-01-23T22:26:45Z aeth: That's now *just* outside of reach for a lot of people. These next 10 years will be interesting. 2021-01-23T22:27:32Z aeth: (only about 2x to 3x the price that people actually would pay for a high-end CPU) 2021-01-23T22:27:42Z amirouche: renting a server is less out of reach. 2021-01-23T22:28:02Z amirouche: but yeah, it is pricey especially at big providers.. 2021-01-23T22:30:57Z amirouche: I started the tool again: out of 217 tested mutation, 215 are dubious and this time this is only code that has test coverage :/ 2021-01-23T22:36:49Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-23T22:42:29Z twosComplement joined #scheme 2021-01-23T22:44:34Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-23T22:44:57Z euandreh_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-23T22:45:50Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-23T22:48:48Z twosComplement quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-23T22:52:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T22:57:43Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-23T22:58:22Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:03:04Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:05:21Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-23T23:06:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:07:20Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:07:49Z ChanServ has set mode +o Zipheir 2021-01-23T23:08:03Z ChanServ has set mode -o Zipheir 2021-01-23T23:10:33Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T23:10:43Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:11:33Z Riastradh: amirouche: You might also look into `fault injection'. 2021-01-23T23:12:57Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: hyiltiz) 2021-01-23T23:14:00Z daviid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T23:14:38Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:15:56Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:35:04Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-23T23:35:29Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-23T23:42:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:43:21Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-23T23:46:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-23T23:50:42Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:55:54Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-23T23:55:57Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-24T00:00:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T00:09:03Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-24T00:13:43Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T00:23:03Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-24T00:23:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T00:30:40Z euandreh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-24T00:37:08Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-24T00:57:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T01:06:26Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-24T01:13:15Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-24T01:17:24Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T01:17:55Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T01:22:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T02:15:31Z greyeax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-24T02:15:33Z remby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-24T02:19:32Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-24T02:26:55Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T02:30:24Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-24T02:31:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T02:32:06Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-24T02:37:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T02:44:04Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T02:46:19Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-24T02:48:03Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-24T02:48:48Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-24T03:02:13Z remby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-24T03:02:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T03:05:27Z amirouche quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-01-24T03:09:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T03:14:49Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T03:19:38Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T03:22:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T03:22:16Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T03:24:07Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-24T03:36:55Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-24T03:43:52Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T03:45:41Z remby left #scheme 2021-01-24T03:48:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T04:05:09Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T04:11:29Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-24T04:12:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T04:17:18Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T04:18:34Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T04:22:19Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-24T04:38:12Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T05:06:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T05:18:46Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T05:22:02Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T05:22:13Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-24T05:25:41Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-24T05:38:05Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-24T05:54:34Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-24T05:54:39Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-24T05:54:45Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-24T06:01:19Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T06:36:57Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-24T06:57:04Z brown121407 left #scheme 2021-01-24T07:05:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T07:05:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T07:14:39Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-24T07:15:16Z mirrorbird quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-24T07:24:42Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T07:26:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T07:31:28Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T07:37:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T07:53:01Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-24T08:03:44Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T08:04:09Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-24T08:16:03Z ZombieChicken quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-24T08:18:08Z cobax joined #scheme 2021-01-24T08:20:33Z cobax: hi @scheme! can anyone help me find a scheme library I can use for reference (to learn from) that implements from callcc to delimited continuations to effect handler operators such as shift, reset, etc? 2021-01-24T08:20:59Z cobax: I am interested in learning how to implement enough to get to effect handlers a la ocaml multicore. 2021-01-24T08:21:27Z cobax: I can find very clean sml implementations but I get caught in subtle bugs after attempting translation to scheme 2021-01-24T08:23:23Z cobax: I cannot pinpoint the source of the bugs which is why I'd just prefer to now see a working scheme implementation to learn from directly 2021-01-24T08:26:20Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T08:31:53Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T08:32:12Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T08:36:11Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-24T08:37:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T08:38:41Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T08:43:28Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-24T08:51:06Z siraben: cobax: which SML implementations were you looking at? 2021-01-24T08:52:01Z siraben: cobax: IMO Oleg's work usually is the best reference for learning about continuations and effect handlers; http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/index.html#tutorial 2021-01-24T08:52:01Z cobax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-24T08:54:36Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-24T08:59:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:03:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T09:07:09Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:09:04Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-24T09:11:25Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:22:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:25:14Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-24T09:26:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T09:27:57Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:30:36Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T09:31:29Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:32:41Z imode quit (Quit: https://youtu.be/t74W7UjXbYQ?t=23) 2021-01-24T09:39:11Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:40:45Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:41:43Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:41:55Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-24T09:46:17Z cobax joined #scheme 2021-01-24T09:46:22Z cobax: siraben: https://github.com/kayceesrk/sml-effect-conc 2021-01-24T09:49:36Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T09:50:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-24T10:12:55Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T10:12:55Z cobax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-24T10:31:03Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-24T10:31:59Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T10:32:32Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-24T10:40:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T10:44:58Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T11:04:27Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-24T11:19:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T11:23:45Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T11:29:10Z mangol: which RnRS reports are the IEEE and DSSSL Scheme standards derived from? 2021-01-24T11:30:59Z iv4nshm4k0v: mangol: R4RS, I think? 2021-01-24T11:33:27Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T11:38:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-24T11:51:10Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-24T11:57:59Z mangol: added years to https://registry.scheme.org/#scheme-standard 2021-01-24T11:58:42Z mangol: IEEE came out at about the same time as R4RS, so it's based on either that or R3RS 2021-01-24T11:59:01Z mangol: DSSSL came out in 1996, five years after R4RS, and two years before R5RS, so DSSSL is probably based on R4RS 2021-01-24T12:04:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T12:05:59Z lockywolf_: Does anyone here know Michael Sperber? 2021-01-24T12:08:17Z lockywolf_: His mail server is rejecting emails 2021-01-24T12:08:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T12:10:26Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf_: Not personally, and it was years since I’ve last contacted him; alas. 2021-01-24T12:12:50Z lockywolf_: well, hopefully he is reading his company email 2021-01-24T12:13:10Z mangol: https://www.deinprogramm.de/sperber/contact.html 2021-01-24T12:13:44Z wasamasa: I am shocked to see a clojurescript project listed on his website 2021-01-24T12:18:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T12:29:05Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T12:38:39Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-24T12:39:03Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T12:44:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T13:12:28Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-24T13:20:27Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T13:25:01Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T13:37:08Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-24T13:38:12Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-24T13:45:25Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-24T13:54:20Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T14:03:29Z mangol: jcowan: can you confirm or deny the above remarks on IEEE and DSSSL? 2021-01-24T14:23:00Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T14:39:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T14:44:58Z jcowan: IEEE is R4RS with a few R5RS features, like (eq? '() #f) is guaranteed false. But no macros, for examples. 2021-01-24T14:46:28Z jcowan: DS*L is what you get when you systematically remove mutation from R4RS. There are some knock-on effects: eq? and eql? don't exist, only equal?, and therefore `case` uses equal? matching. 2021-01-24T14:52:17Z mangol: DSSSL has optional and keyword arguments too, right? 2021-01-24T14:57:37Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T14:59:42Z amirouche: that seems nice ;) 2021-01-24T15:01:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T15:21:29Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T15:25:39Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T15:26:04Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T15:31:39Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-24T16:00:01Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-24T16:02:50Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-24T16:06:00Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T16:15:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T16:16:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T16:22:45Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T16:26:54Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-24T16:34:02Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-01-24T16:34:27Z kjak quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-24T16:34:48Z kjak joined #scheme 2021-01-24T17:08:54Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-24T17:14:50Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T17:15:22Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T17:19:44Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T17:20:39Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T17:39:23Z aeth: DSSSL has foo: style keywords 2021-01-24T17:39:45Z aeth: iirc the three main styles are #:foo :foo foo: 2021-01-24T17:40:32Z Riastradh: mere cosmetics; Racket does the semantics properly 2021-01-24T17:42:47Z ezekielwordswort joined #scheme 2021-01-24T17:43:02Z ezekielwordswort: has anybody here used jazzscheme? 2021-01-24T17:44:47Z ezekielwordswort: if so, i need help building it 2021-01-24T17:45:18Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T17:47:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T17:55:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T17:57:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T17:59:15Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-24T18:12:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T18:17:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-24T18:17:51Z mangol: aeth: correct. Riastradh: it's highly controversial which semantics are The Right Thing, and Marc N-W even suggested hygienic keywords :) 2021-01-24T18:18:12Z mangol: for details, SRFI 177 and its mailing list 2021-01-24T18:19:28Z mangol: ezekielwordswort: in case you have access to Docker, docker run -it schemers/jazz:head 2021-01-24T18:19:30Z aeth: The uncontroversially correct semantics are obviously just a Lisp-1ification of Common Lisp with a cleaner API. :-p 2021-01-24T18:19:52Z mangol: ezekielwordswort: this is how we build it: https://github.com/scheme-containers/jazz/blob/master/head/Dockerfile 2021-01-24T18:20:28Z aeth: (Both Guile and MIT Scheme seem to lean heavily on the CL influences, although I haven't set up and run idiomatic code in two dozen dialects to compare.) 2021-01-24T18:20:49Z Riastradh: silly controversy, Common Lisp and DSSSL just got it wrong 2021-01-24T18:21:31Z mangol: ezekielwordswort: Guillaume Cartier happily answers email about Jazz, address at bottom of http://www.jazzscheme.org/ front page 2021-01-24T18:22:17Z mangol: i haven't managed to run the JazzScheme IDE; if you figure out how, please get back to me so we can make the docker container do that 2021-01-24T18:22:23Z aeth: Riastradh: I like CL keywords because plists are essentially a side effect from them... and then if you have a lambda-list-style parser like destructuring-bind you can treat plist keys as "keywords". It also means that the relevant concept is a plist tail, not a plist, since you can have (foo &key bar baz) 2021-01-24T18:22:46Z aeth: The ugly part, though, is the "&key" part, instead of, say, #:key or whatever Schemes tend to do. 2021-01-24T18:23:02Z aeth: Tbh, I'm not very familiar with that because I don't use keywords in Scheme because they're not portable. 2021-01-24T18:23:34Z mangol: all of these points and many like them were raised on the 177 list :) often several times each 2021-01-24T18:23:42Z ezekielwordswort: mangol: thanks 2021-01-24T18:24:01Z Riastradh: Racket's keyword semantics eliminates an entire class of stupid bugs, makes everything semantically clearer, and reduces the cost of the whole business. Mere expedience is the only reason to linger with the clumsy Common Lisp semantics. 2021-01-24T18:24:40Z aeth: Common Lisp's semantics make writing an entire class of macros way, way easier. 2021-01-24T18:25:01Z Riastradh: What class of macros is that? 2021-01-24T18:25:15Z mangol: TL;DR correctness and usability are at odds in most decisions involving how to implement keyword args 2021-01-24T18:25:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T18:26:02Z Riastradh: no they aren't 2021-01-24T18:26:13Z Riastradh: expedience and tradition vs obviously the right thing 2021-01-24T18:26:35Z mangol: please peruse the 177 list. we're having a rerun of a rerun right now 2021-01-24T18:26:48Z Riastradh: not really keen to read seven thousand messages about a subject on which there is no meaningful dispute 2021-01-24T18:27:04Z aeth: Riastradh: Macros replacing configuration files. Very few lines in CL and conceptually very simple. Racket seems to come from the school of thought, common across most programming languages, where metaprogramming must be hard and use advanced concepts. 2021-01-24T18:27:21Z Riastradh: aeth: ? 2021-01-24T18:28:17Z mangol: https://shed.bike/ :) 2021-01-24T18:28:19Z aeth: Riastradh: In Common Lisp if you want a simple key=value configuration you can just use DEFMACRO to define a macro that expects a plist interface. 2021-01-24T18:28:54Z aeth: This plist interface is expressed either directly in the macro's destructuring as a &key or, if you need a list of them, parsed in a LOOP with DESTRUCTURING-BIND's &key 2021-01-24T18:29:25Z mangol: FWIW, i mostly agree with aeth, but nobody cares and nobody should care about one person's opinion. keywords args are about programming in the large, which is about interoperability, which is about standardization, which is about agreement 2021-01-24T18:29:56Z Riastradh: And this is hard in Racket because...? 2021-01-24T18:29:56Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T18:31:23Z Zipheir: Another option is to avoid keywords entirely. 2021-01-24T18:32:37Z mangol: among everything else above, the reason stuff is hard in Racket and whether to avoid keywords entirely were discussed quite extensively on the list 2021-01-24T18:34:07Z aeth: Riastradh: it's hard because it's not trivially built into the language's macro system, at least afaik, and if it is, it's not easily discoverable 2021-01-24T18:34:55Z aeth: If I had to solve this problem in Racket, I'd probably just use alists (and thus add quite a few extra parentheses) since I'd be fairly confident that there is *a* way. 2021-01-24T18:38:47Z aeth: I mean, I guess it's kind of like getting pi in r7rs-small. It's not there, but you can get it. You just need to remember that it's (* (atan 1.0) 4.0) which probably means guess and checking a few combinations of ATAN and TAN etc. since you probably won't remember it. 2021-01-24T18:40:24Z aeth: But compared to having a pi constant, it's hard (and deriving pi from math is probably easier than writing the kind of macro I'm talking about) 2021-01-24T18:40:30Z Zipheir: mangol: Were Racket keyword semantics discussed on the 177 ml? It's a bit hard to navigate all of these threads. 2021-01-24T18:40:34Z Riastradh: Sounds like a problem that is easy to solve by writing an abstraction for the pattern. 2021-01-24T18:40:46Z mangol: Zipheir: yes, and yes :) 2021-01-24T18:40:57Z Riastradh: In contrast, the entire class of bugs that Racket keyword semantics eliminates cannot be solved that way. 2021-01-24T18:42:23Z aeth: You can solve many bugs by making metaprogramming hard again because only the smartest and most careful people will then resort to metaprogramming. :-p 2021-01-24T18:42:38Z jcowan: mangol: Yes, I forgot about the keywords, which come straight from CL 2021-01-24T18:42:48Z mangol: Zipheir: if you're interested in the Racket style, look for threads where Per Bothner, author of Kawa, is participating. Kawa and Racket have similar semantics. every other Scheme currently uses the heretical (Riastradh) aka traditional (aeth) semantics 2021-01-24T18:43:01Z jcowan: (except foo: instead of :foo) 2021-01-24T18:43:58Z Zipheir: mangol: ty. 2021-01-24T18:44:16Z wasamasa: one weird thing is when people refrain from using keywords plist-style 2021-01-24T18:44:22Z aeth: Imo, the main problem with Common Lisp keywords is that keywords are incredibly common in Common Lisp because of the way its package (namespace for symbols) system works. You don't really see this in Scheme. In Scheme, you'd use 'foo where in CL you'd probably use :foo 2021-01-24T18:44:29Z wasamasa: like by having a single keyword as value, followed by nothing else 2021-01-24T18:44:39Z wasamasa: but it's even weirder if you mix both styles 2021-01-24T18:44:40Z Zipheir: Yeah, I like Racket's approach. It's fast, and there's no need to use symbols out-of-band. 2021-01-24T18:44:52Z aeth: So in a Scheme with CL-style keywords you can in fact have (list :foo 'foo :bar 'bar) and it looks way clearer than CL's (list :foo :foo :bar :bar) when written on one line (which in practice isn't common) 2021-01-24T18:45:05Z wasamasa: like (my-procedure key: value #:value2 key3: value3) 2021-01-24T18:45:26Z wasamasa: it's designed to trip people up and doesn't look nice either 2021-01-24T18:46:38Z aeth: wasamasa: wow that's ugly 2021-01-24T18:46:48Z wasamasa: https://chust.org/repos/chicken-lmdb/doc/trunk/lmdb.wiki 2021-01-24T18:47:22Z wasamasa: [#:mode MODE] [...] [#:read-only] [...] 2021-01-24T18:47:53Z wasamasa: I thought at first it's some short-hand for not writing out the boolean value, nope 2021-01-24T18:48:19Z wasamasa: you can't use mode: #o600 read-only: #t 2021-01-24T18:48:30Z wasamasa: it must be mode: #o600 #:read-only 2021-01-24T18:48:50Z Zipheir: Hmm, I wonder if you could use SRFI 209 enums to implement keyword arguments, as well. 2021-01-24T18:49:29Z aeth: argh 2021-01-24T18:49:53Z aeth: "enum" is like "vector" or "string"... it means subtly (or significantly) different things in different languages 2021-01-24T18:50:22Z Zipheir: aeth: Hence I said SRFI 209, which gives a precise meaning. :) 2021-01-24T18:50:27Z mangol: Zipheir: the main issue is whether keyword args are a special part of the procedure calling convention (Racket, Kawa) or merely a convenient destructuring of the rest argument (every other Scheme and Lisp) 2021-01-24T18:50:39Z aeth: Zipheir: yeah, I just wish that they used another name even if it was an obscure used-only-once name 2021-01-24T18:50:53Z Zipheir: aeth: Too late now. :) 2021-01-24T18:51:03Z aeth: yes, I said "argh" upon seeing that it's final :-p 2021-01-24T18:51:19Z Zipheir: mangol: Yes. 2021-01-24T18:51:25Z mangol: if special in the calling convention, you need something like keyword-apply in Racket instead of ordinary apply. and you can intersperse keyword and positional args when writing out a a procedure call (unless the implementation bans it) 2021-01-24T18:51:41Z Riastradh: an enum is a number of the form +/-e^{e^{...e^n...}} where n and the number of powers are both fixed-width integers 2021-01-24T18:52:01Z Zipheir: Heh. 2021-01-24T18:52:06Z mangol: if not special, an ordinary `apply` will do, and you can do all the concomitant tricks like passing a plist with keyword objects as keys as the tail list to `apply` 2021-01-24T18:52:16Z Riastradh: (alternative to floating-point, naturally) 2021-01-24T18:53:33Z Riastradh: ((kidding, that's actually called the symmetric level-index number system; and unum is a different alternative to floating-point)) 2021-01-24T18:54:07Z Zipheir: I mention enums as making the plist trick a little more reliable. Enums are disjoint, so you can't confuse them with arguments; an enum of type keyword? can be rejected as an argument at runtime. 2021-01-24T18:54:17Z Zipheir: It's not great, but it's better than symbols. 2021-01-24T18:54:29Z Riastradh: (also I meant e^{n/2^p}, not e^n, where p is the precision and n < 2^p) 2021-01-24T18:54:57Z Riastradh: Zipheir: what if you also used a syntactic distinction so that it can't even be confused by position 2021-01-24T18:55:41Z mangol: use any first-class datatype to indicate keywords, and it can be confused by position 2021-01-24T18:55:52Z mangol: symbols, keyword objects, enums, doesn't matter 2021-01-24T18:56:03Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Sure, I still prefer that approach.- 2021-01-24T18:56:15Z Zipheir: mangol: Right. 2021-01-24T18:56:59Z Zipheir: Not to mention that you've got to define a bunch of enum types just to pass arguments. Feh. 2021-01-24T18:57:09Z mangol: the invention that Racket and/or Kawa made is that in (foo 1 2 3 #:bar 4 #:baz 5) the read syntax #:bar and #:baz does not splice keyword objects into the arg list 2021-01-24T18:57:38Z mangol: those are keyword markers, not self-evaluating keyword objects. even though it looks like the latter when you come from a trad. Lisp background 2021-01-24T18:57:49Z Zipheir: Yes. 2021-01-24T18:58:12Z Zipheir: I think it's the right thing here. 2021-01-24T18:58:30Z mangol: instead the thing is syntactic sugar for something like (keyword-apply foo '(bar 4 baz 5) '(1 2 3)) 2021-01-24T18:59:42Z aeth: Zipheir: I propose that we call them 209nums instead of enums 2021-01-24T19:01:04Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-24T19:01:07Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-24T19:01:57Z Zipheir: aeth: (import (prefix ...)) 2021-01-24T19:25:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T19:30:06Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-24T19:31:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T19:34:15Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-24T19:34:32Z ezekielwordswort quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T19:40:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T19:49:34Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-24T19:54:36Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T19:57:33Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-24T20:00:02Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T20:00:28Z ezekielwordswort joined #scheme 2021-01-24T20:01:31Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T20:06:21Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T20:07:24Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T20:12:47Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2021-01-24T20:13:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T20:14:09Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T20:14:13Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-24T20:15:03Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T20:15:12Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T20:23:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T20:30:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T20:31:55Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-24T20:32:30Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-24T20:33:21Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-24T20:54:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T20:59:31Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-24T21:10:26Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T21:15:39Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T21:24:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T21:37:42Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T21:44:05Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T21:44:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T21:46:04Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T21:46:14Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2021-01-24T21:49:24Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T21:54:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T22:01:53Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-01-24T22:06:53Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2021-01-24T22:11:05Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T22:15:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-24T22:16:25Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T22:16:59Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T22:21:10Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2021-01-24T22:22:16Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-24T22:30:25Z mangol: we could probably make keyword arguments a standard part of the procedure call syntax of RnRS in such a way that it works with either Kawa/Racket semantics or traditional Lisp semantics 2021-01-24T22:30:55Z mangol: as long as we stipulate that mixing keyword arguments and a rest argument in the lambda list of the same procedure is undefined behavior 2021-01-24T22:31:45Z mangol: we wrote implementations for SRFI 177 such that the syntax in the SRFI actually worked portably in pretty much every scheme implementation. 2021-01-24T22:32:40Z mangol: we just didn't like the syntax that we were using. we had to use (call/kw some-procedure 1 2 3 (d 4 e 5 f 6)) for keyword calls instead of (some-procedure 1 2 3 :d 4 :e 5 :f 6) 2021-01-24T22:33:35Z mangol: so this would be fine: (lambda (a b c #!key d e f) ...) and this would be fine too: (lambda (a b c . rest) ...) 2021-01-24T22:33:54Z mangol: but this would be undefined behavior: (lambda (a b c #!key d e f . rest) ...) 2021-01-24T22:37:56Z mangol: if this change were made to future RnRS, we might as well standardize optional positional arguments while at it: (lambda (a b c #!optional d e #!key f g h) ...) 2021-01-24T22:38:25Z mangol: it's no problem to mix optional positional arguments with keyword arguments no matter what semantics we use. only a rest argument causes problems 2021-01-24T22:39:52Z mangol: when using trad. Lisp semantics, we have to stipulate that if the caller supplies any keyword arguments, they have to supply all optional arguments as well. otherwise undefined behavior 2021-01-24T22:40:36Z mangol: Racket/Kawa semantics permit an implementation where the caller isn't required to pass all optional positional arguments when using keyword arguments. 2021-01-24T22:40:58Z mangol: but mandating that optional positional args always be filled in is not a big tax considering what we'd gain 2021-01-24T22:47:39Z mangol: the more i think about it the more i like it. i had mentally blocked off this path on the grounds that RnRS procedure call syntax is sacred and cannot be altered 2021-01-24T23:06:17Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-24T23:09:17Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T23:09:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T23:14:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-24T23:19:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T23:24:27Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-24T23:29:49Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-24T23:33:35Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-24T23:41:10Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-24T23:42:19Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-24T23:42:32Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-24T23:43:33Z ezekielwordswort quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-24T23:46:21Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-24T23:46:50Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:02:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:08:32Z c7d9_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:11:42Z c7d9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:13:04Z Zipheir: Here's an interesting question: how do keywords and pattern-matching interact? 2021-01-25T00:16:48Z mats quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:17:07Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:17:07Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:17:22Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:17:23Z Duns_Scrotus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:17:26Z gf3 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:17:32Z ec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-25T00:17:53Z ec joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:17:58Z kwmiebach quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:17:58Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:17:59Z Vultyre quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:18:01Z mats joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:18:46Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:18:57Z physpi joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:19:06Z cemerick joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:19:12Z gf3 joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:19:30Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:19:45Z Duns_Scrotus joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:19:52Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:19:59Z kwmiebach joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:51:36Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:57:08Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:58:07Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:58:16Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T00:58:37Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-25T00:58:56Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T00:59:24Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-25T01:03:05Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T01:25:37Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T01:27:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T01:32:03Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-25T01:36:09Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T01:38:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-25T01:43:37Z siraben: Zipheir: in what sense? I think it's entirely dependent on how you desugar pattern matches. 2021-01-25T01:47:23Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T01:58:07Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T02:14:43Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T02:16:10Z Zipheir: OK, Racket integrates keywords into their pattern-matching syntax. 2021-01-25T02:16:28Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-25T02:18:05Z Zipheir: SRFI 204 doesn't have such an extension, but it's a consideration. 2021-01-25T02:18:21Z Oxyd: How about making keywords dependent on pattern matching? :P So like (lambda (a b c . `((d . ,d) (e . ,e))) …). An improper list with an alist in its tail! 2021-01-25T02:19:22Z Zipheir: siraben: It might be trickier in Scheme, where pattern-matching is usually a macro. 2021-01-25T02:20:08Z Zipheir: Oxyd: I'm not sure I understand. 2021-01-25T02:22:21Z Oxyd: It was like 90% joke, but now that I'm thinking about it, a SRFI-201 destructuring lambda might be a not completely stupid way to provide keyword arguments. 2021-01-25T02:22:55Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-25T02:24:24Z Zipheir: So you'd just pass a (keyword, argument) alist? 2021-01-25T02:27:26Z Zipheir: It's similar to the anti-keyword-argument strategy of passing a "config" record value. 2021-01-25T02:45:02Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T02:45:38Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-25T02:52:55Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-25T02:53:13Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-25T02:54:19Z mdhughes: I just use alists for named key/value sets now. That and case-lambda solved all my keyword/optional needs without adding new syntax. And without ever having to argue about new syntax. 2021-01-25T02:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T02:58:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-25T03:02:28Z Zipheir: Some kind of keyword syntax which can be used without hand-rolling it each time is good; as Oleg says "It's a natural thing to use names, rather than order, to describe parameters." 2021-01-25T03:20:55Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-25T03:22:49Z Riastradh: better to use disorder, high-entropy parameters 2021-01-25T03:29:58Z Zipheir: Sounds like an idea for Erischeme. 2021-01-25T03:32:57Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T03:57:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T03:58:31Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-25T04:02:42Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-25T04:29:31Z mdhughes: assoc is built in. Tho in practice I use a function to check for missing values: (define (alref alist key) (let [ (v (assoc key alist)) ] (if v (cdr v) #f) ) ) 2021-01-25T04:31:02Z Zipheir: Wouldn't assv/assq be the usual way to scan symbol-keyed alists? 2021-01-25T04:31:31Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-25T04:32:55Z mdhughes: assq's faster, but I do have string keys in some places (parsing JSON -> alist) so I just use assoc. 2021-01-25T04:33:32Z mdhughes: And "faster" won't really be any different if the keys are all symbols. 2021-01-25T04:35:49Z sp1ff quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-25T04:39:36Z mdhughes: Also LISP and Scheme are the only languages I've ever seen where they'd put "assq" in the language and, like, not have constant flame wars over it. 2021-01-25T04:54:47Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-25T04:55:14Z aeth: yes, it should be ass-queue, not assq 2021-01-25T04:55:36Z Anonymous_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T04:57:04Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T04:57:07Z stultulo joined #scheme 2021-01-25T04:58:03Z stultulo is now known as f8l 2021-01-25T05:09:39Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T05:10:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-25T05:14:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T05:16:18Z dieggsy: lmao 2021-01-25T05:40:43Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T05:43:46Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T05:44:59Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-25T05:48:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T05:50:47Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-25T05:52:48Z Zipheir: What's perhaps more surprising is that they weren't renamed in Scheme to assoc/eq and assoc/eqv, or something like that. 2021-01-25T05:57:43Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-25T05:58:48Z Anonymous_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T05:59:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T06:08:00Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-25T06:08:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T06:11:19Z Zipheir: (And assoc/equal, with plain old assoc being parameterized as in SRFI 1/R7) 2021-01-25T06:11:57Z Zipheir: assoc defaulting to equal? is a good thing, though. Anyway. 2021-01-25T06:14:26Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T06:29:37Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T06:36:21Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-25T06:56:19Z aeth: my guess is that it's there because they actually used it 2021-01-25T06:56:33Z aeth: so they wanted it to stay with a short name 2021-01-25T06:56:40Z aeth: sort of like car 2021-01-25T07:04:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T07:09:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-25T07:11:58Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-25T07:15:03Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T07:16:15Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-25T07:32:05Z ZombieChicken joined #scheme 2021-01-25T07:44:15Z f8l quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-25T07:48:31Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-25T07:57:40Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-25T07:58:45Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-25T08:25:44Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T08:30:26Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-25T08:49:15Z dpk quit (Quit: .) 2021-01-25T08:49:25Z dpk joined #scheme 2021-01-25T08:57:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T08:59:06Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-25T09:06:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T09:07:00Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T09:09:36Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T09:11:06Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-25T09:18:10Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-25T09:33:56Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T09:48:02Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-25T09:59:42Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-25T10:09:19Z mirrorbird_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T10:11:35Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-25T10:15:46Z ZombieChicken quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T10:32:26Z f8l joined #scheme 2021-01-25T10:46:29Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T10:46:33Z euandreh_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-25T10:51:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-25T10:55:22Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-25T11:13:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-25T11:14:41Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-25T11:18:18Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T11:31:05Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-25T11:33:05Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T11:33:05Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-25T11:47:09Z amirouche quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-01-25T12:02:11Z mirrorbird_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-25T12:06:30Z mirrorbird_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T12:07:47Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-25T12:09:05Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T12:13:31Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-25T12:19:04Z terrorjack1 joined #scheme 2021-01-25T12:19:32Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T12:19:34Z terrorjack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T12:19:34Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T12:19:35Z terrorjack1 is now known as terrorjack 2021-01-25T12:20:08Z sudden quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T12:20:34Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-25T12:21:04Z ineiros joined #scheme 2021-01-25T12:21:39Z sudden joined #scheme 2021-01-25T12:24:43Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-25T13:00:39Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-25T13:05:41Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-25T13:14:35Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-25T13:18:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T13:19:06Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-25T13:26:05Z mirrorbird_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T13:31:17Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T13:34:23Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-25T13:48:19Z cpape quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T13:49:25Z cpape joined #scheme 2021-01-25T13:59:00Z Lysander__ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T13:59:11Z webshinra_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T13:59:48Z iltutmus_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T14:00:01Z Lysandros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T14:00:01Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T14:00:01Z iltutmus quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-25T14:02:59Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T14:08:53Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-25T14:34:56Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-25T14:35:26Z xi left #scheme 2021-01-25T14:43:10Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-25T14:56:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T14:58:14Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-25T15:04:53Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T15:07:17Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T15:12:01Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-25T15:15:13Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-25T15:20:22Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-25T15:37:01Z cer0 joined #scheme 2021-01-25T15:41:36Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T15:42:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-25T15:51:31Z cer0 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-25T15:51:46Z cer0 joined #scheme 2021-01-25T15:53:29Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T15:53:47Z cer0 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-25T15:54:04Z cer0 joined #scheme 2021-01-25T15:59:19Z cross joined #scheme 2021-01-25T16:00:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T16:02:40Z badkins joined #scheme 2021-01-25T16:04:35Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-25T16:05:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T16:05:47Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-25T16:06:54Z badkins quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-25T16:19:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T16:30:49Z jcowan: I never use assq as a matter of habit; it's assv or assoc. 2021-01-25T16:30:57Z cer0 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-25T16:41:16Z aeth: jcowan: yes, but what were the attitudes of the people who were in charge during the great renaming? It would be interesting if you could get in touch 2021-01-25T16:41:42Z aeth: (or if they wrote down justifications somewhere) 2021-01-25T16:57:48Z [d] quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-25T16:57:54Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-25T16:59:34Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-25T17:05:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-25T17:05:33Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-25T17:28:54Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T17:29:09Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-25T17:30:00Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-25T17:37:27Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T17:39:56Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-25T17:44:27Z Guest62776 joined #scheme 2021-01-25T17:44:27Z stultulo joined #scheme 2021-01-25T17:46:12Z Guest62776 left #scheme 2021-01-25T17:46:35Z f8l quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-25T17:48:41Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T17:57:50Z [d] quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-25T17:57:56Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-25T18:03:57Z Zipheir: I wonder why it isn't post-R5RS Scheme convention to re-use common library identifiers (e.g. map, fold, every) and to leave prefixing to the import mechanism. 2021-01-25T18:05:11Z Zipheir: It's like the names used in every Scheme library are chosen to coexist in a single namespace. 2021-01-25T18:05:20Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-25T18:10:31Z gwatt: Probably because there's not any automatic prefixing. The user has to manually prefix every location they want to. 2021-01-25T18:11:15Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-25T18:11:40Z Zipheir: (import (prefix (foo bar) foo)) is pretty automatic. 2021-01-25T18:12:12Z gwatt: Zipheir: That's manual. Automatic would be (import (foo)) implying (prefix foo:) 2021-01-25T18:12:27Z aeth: no 2021-01-25T18:12:30Z Zipheir: Meh, a difference of a few characters. 2021-01-25T18:12:46Z aeth: automatic would be (import (prefix (foo bar))) implicitly prefixing foo if you don't say (prefix (foo bar) foo) 2021-01-25T18:12:56Z gwatt: If you look at java, python, haskell, or even common lisp you can trivially reference the identifier with the package name 2021-01-25T18:13:02Z Zipheir: And that would defeat part of the purpose of using generic names: maybe you don't want to type computation-bind if there's no other "bind" in scope. 2021-01-25T18:20:36Z Zipheir: I suppose it's more convenient in languages which allow an identifier to refer to different procedures, with type-inference resolving ambiguities. 2021-01-25T18:31:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T18:39:45Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T18:44:25Z jcowan: FWIU the general feeling was that with autocompletion long identifiers weren't a problem. At least the names are more or less systematic: that was the great contribution of R2RS 2021-01-25T18:44:57Z jcowan: aeth: I know that the email archives for the old Scheme committee are online, but I don't remember quite where. 2021-01-25T18:46:12Z woky quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-25T18:46:20Z jcowan: (the people listed in R2-R5RS on the title page) 2021-01-25T18:47:22Z jcowan: If I could remember the name of the ML, I'm sure Dr. Google could nail it. 2021-01-25T18:51:56Z cantstanya quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-25T18:51:56Z hendursaga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-25T18:51:56Z tryte quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-25T18:51:56Z madage quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-25T18:51:56Z xelxebar quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-25T18:56:59Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:01:27Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T19:01:30Z Zipheir: Ignoring whether one uses autocomplete, the long names can make expressions rather heavyweight to read. (mapping-fold ... (mapping-map ... (mapping-filter ...))) contains a lot of redundant information. 2021-01-25T19:02:01Z aeth: long names are fine unless they're designed to be used "inline" 2021-01-25T19:02:11Z aeth: so foo-refs and arithmetic 2021-01-25T19:02:35Z aeth: vector-ref (instead of, say, vref) is one of the worst parts of Scheme 2021-01-25T19:02:47Z Zipheir: With generic names, though, I could have M-map, M-fold, etc., but I'm stuck with mapping-map with explicit naming. 2021-01-25T19:02:48Z aeth: Even (vref foo 42) is still way longer than foo[42] in most languages 2021-01-25T19:03:22Z aeth: map's fine because you're probably only going to use one per line 2021-01-25T19:03:43Z aeth: but if you're writing matrix code or whatever, you'll probably want at least four foo-refs per line 2021-01-25T19:05:08Z Zipheir: Right; vector-ref is hard, as a core Scheme form, but if you prefix-imported, say, SRFI 133, and that library just had `ref', etc., you could have vref, vset!, etc. easily. 2021-01-25T19:05:40Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:06:15Z Zipheir: One can always argue away ideas with special cases, but this is a point of general utility. Hard prefixes add very little useful information. 2021-01-25T19:06:20Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:08:41Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:09:56Z Zipheir: It's most likely an artifact of Scheme's module-less days. But modules solve the namespace problem, so we can eliminate that verbose pattern. 2021-01-25T19:12:50Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:13:30Z Lysander__ quit (Changing host) 2021-01-25T19:13:30Z Lysander__ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:13:33Z Lysander__ is now known as Lysandros 2021-01-25T19:19:53Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-25T19:21:49Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:22:41Z woky joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:23:45Z jcowan: That's fine if you use only one data structure, but typically one doesn't: it's not lists all the way down any more. 2021-01-25T19:24:36Z jcowan: So either you need run-time generic functions (a Good Thing) or complete static typing a la Haskell. 2021-01-25T19:25:21Z Zipheir: Sure, that's the general direction of all that. 2021-01-25T19:26:25Z Zipheir: But if you're making extensive use of a few structures, you may want very short prefixes, (V-ref, M-map, etc.) and that should be possible. 2021-01-25T19:27:23Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-25T19:28:57Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-25T19:31:50Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:43:53Z Anonymous_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T19:45:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:46:19Z Anonymous_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T19:54:31Z aeth: jcowan: you can just do partial static typing like what efficient CL does to make AREF not have a runtime cost 2021-01-25T19:55:04Z aeth: and in general, you'll only care for arithmetic and array access... arithmetic is already generic in Scheme 2021-01-25T19:55:36Z aeth: It's actually easier in Scheme than in CL to do this sort of thing because the compiler can just turn the generic + into the non-generic-but-exposed + rather than having internal versions 2021-01-25T19:55:49Z Riastradh: should do vectorized operations rather than just push pointwise things around 2021-01-25T19:56:01Z aeth: Riastradh: that's asking too much at the moment 2021-01-25T19:56:05Z Riastradh: is not 2021-01-25T19:56:29Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-25T20:00:23Z Riastradh: duncanm: mit-scheme 11.0.91 might work on macOS/aarch64 out of the box 2021-01-25T20:02:08Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: hyiltiz) 2021-01-25T20:04:43Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-25T20:04:45Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-25T20:06:03Z jcowan: aeth: You mean AREF vs. SVREF or vs. ELT? 2021-01-25T20:08:05Z aeth: jcowan: Not quite. ELT is sequence-generic but only works on 1D arrays (vectors). AREF is array-generic but only works on arrays and not other sequences (like lists). 2021-01-25T20:08:19Z aeth: So... CL doesn't really have an exposed hierarchy of specifying particular FOO-REFs 2021-01-25T20:09:02Z aeth: There are a few like SVREF and SCHAR and SBIT, but beyond that, you have to use declarations 2021-01-25T20:09:28Z aeth: And if you're using declarations you might as well just use AREF instead of those three and declare everything... 2021-01-25T20:09:54Z jcowan: Sure. I thought you were talking about partial type inference *without* declarations. 2021-01-25T20:11:36Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-25T20:13:04Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-25T20:13:54Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-25T20:15:36Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2021-01-25T20:19:05Z hyiltiz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-25T20:20:00Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-25T20:22:42Z aeth: you can do that too 2021-01-25T20:23:04Z aeth: SBCL both infers and declares types, but semantically, it can only infer within a file, and usually only within a function, due to CL's semantics. 2021-01-25T20:23:16Z aeth: so e.g. if you create an array in the same function that you access it, declares are unnecessary 2021-01-25T20:24:03Z aeth: It can also infer when it has to be of a certain type, so in theory e.g. a compiler only has to check the first use of SBIT since after that it's either an error or it will work 2021-01-25T20:26:04Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-25T20:27:07Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-25T20:54:00Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T20:59:18Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:01:40Z teardown_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-25T21:03:42Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T21:04:18Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:21:58Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:25:54Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T21:29:25Z duncanm: @Riastradh very cool! 2021-01-25T21:30:01Z duncanm: Riastradh: i ordered one for cheap and it'll be arriving in week or so, I look forward to try it out 2021-01-25T21:30:25Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:34:32Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T21:35:48Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:36:27Z Duns_Scrotus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-25T21:36:45Z ec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-25T21:36:45Z englishm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-25T21:36:47Z mats quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-25T21:36:47Z gf3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-25T21:36:48Z kilimanjaro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-25T21:36:48Z kwmiebach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-25T21:37:11Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:37:14Z duncanm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-25T21:37:27Z ec joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:37:29Z kwmiebach joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:37:35Z mats joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:38:04Z Duns_Scrotus joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:38:07Z englishm joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:38:13Z gf3 joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:38:37Z duncanm joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:38:38Z rudybot: la la la 2021-01-25T21:40:05Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T21:45:38Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T21:46:09Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:49:13Z stultulo is now known as f8l 2021-01-25T21:57:17Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T21:57:51Z [d] quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-25T21:57:58Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-25T22:01:40Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T22:09:18Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-25T22:11:18Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T22:15:14Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T22:16:29Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T22:20:47Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T22:22:53Z amirouche: Riastradh: thanks 2021-01-25T22:26:58Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T22:31:16Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T22:32:58Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-25T22:41:29Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T22:45:27Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T22:46:50Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T22:51:00Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T22:52:36Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T22:57:10Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T23:06:45Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T23:10:07Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T23:12:17Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T23:16:54Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T23:26:39Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-25T23:26:54Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T23:29:25Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T23:33:33Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T23:36:26Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T23:40:57Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T23:41:27Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-25T23:42:06Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-25T23:46:30Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-25T23:50:15Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-25T23:52:52Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-25T23:56:59Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-26T00:06:19Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:08:13Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:10:33Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-26T00:10:51Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T00:11:25Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:11:49Z c7d9_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-26T00:15:18Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T00:15:26Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T00:23:44Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:27:49Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-26T00:28:02Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-26T00:29:25Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:29:25Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T00:29:25Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:35:25Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T00:35:41Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:36:50Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:40:09Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-26T00:41:18Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T00:42:35Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:42:41Z teardown_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:46:56Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-26T00:53:52Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T00:57:58Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T00:59:15Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T00:59:15Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T00:59:15Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:00:30Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:03:56Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:03:56Z ArneBab_ quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T01:03:56Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:04:12Z teardown_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-26T01:04:17Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T01:19:18Z ArneBab_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T01:20:35Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:20:35Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T01:20:35Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:25:28Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T01:26:45Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:35:08Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T01:36:25Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:36:25Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T01:36:25Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:39:19Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-26T01:49:41Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:50:08Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:50:18Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T01:51:35Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:51:35Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T01:51:35Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T01:56:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T01:58:02Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T02:07:28Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T02:08:05Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:08:45Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:11:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:20:38Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T02:21:53Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:21:53Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T02:21:53Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:32:48Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T02:34:05Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:34:05Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T02:34:05Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:37:20Z ArneBab quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-26T02:38:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:51:06Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:52:12Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T02:52:15Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:56:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-26T02:58:32Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-26T02:59:09Z ArneBab_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T03:00:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:06:20Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T03:07:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:23:17Z Anonymous_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:25:00Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T03:26:17Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:34:53Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-26T03:39:40Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T03:40:10Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:40:30Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:40:57Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:52:20Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T03:53:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:53:36Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T03:53:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:57:26Z godSend23 joined #scheme 2021-01-26T03:57:28Z godSend23: hey all 2021-01-26T03:58:09Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-26T04:06:30Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T04:07:47Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:07:47Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T04:07:47Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:09:38Z godSend23 left #scheme 2021-01-26T04:16:10Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T04:16:43Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-26T04:17:26Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:17:26Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T04:17:26Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:20:18Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:20:26Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-26T04:21:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:22:50Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T04:24:05Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:24:05Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T04:24:05Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:26:58Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-26T04:29:08Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T04:29:46Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:36:10Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:40:00Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T04:41:14Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:41:14Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T04:41:14Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:42:27Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:45:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T04:45:17Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:48:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T04:53:40Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T04:54:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:58:12Z ArneBab quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-26T04:58:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T04:58:30Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T04:58:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:00:45Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:08:23Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T05:09:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:11:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:12:51Z ArneBab quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-26T05:13:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:13:10Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T05:13:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:17:03Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T05:18:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:18:20Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T05:18:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:19:50Z mdhughes quit 2021-01-26T05:29:43Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T05:31:00Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:31:01Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T05:31:01Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:44:53Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T05:46:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:46:39Z mdhughes joined #scheme 2021-01-26T05:48:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-26T05:57:03Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T05:58:17Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T06:12:43Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T06:13:57Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T06:13:57Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T06:13:57Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T06:25:53Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T06:26:14Z mirrorbird quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-26T06:27:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T06:38:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T06:40:03Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T06:41:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T06:42:37Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2021-01-26T06:46:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-26T07:01:43Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T07:02:57Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T07:12:23Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T07:13:39Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T07:13:39Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T07:13:39Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T07:17:10Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T07:19:23Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T07:22:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-26T07:25:25Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-26T07:35:26Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-26T07:42:36Z [d] quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-26T07:42:42Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-26T07:56:51Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:03:53Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:10:22Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:10:32Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-26T08:13:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-26T08:15:41Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:32:19Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:34:03Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T08:34:04Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-26T08:37:03Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T08:38:19Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:38:19Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T08:38:19Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:40:20Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:46:43Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T08:47:56Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:54:43Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-26T08:59:23Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T09:00:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:01:15Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:05:03Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T09:06:11Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:06:17Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:09:31Z ArneBab quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-26T09:09:31Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-26T09:09:48Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:13:43Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T09:15:24Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:16:38Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T09:17:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:17:28Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T09:17:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:28:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:29:24Z ArneBab quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-01-26T09:30:38Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:30:38Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T09:30:38Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:32:55Z ArneBab quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-26T09:32:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-26T09:33:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:33:12Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T09:33:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:41:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T09:42:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:42:50Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:46:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T09:48:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:48:02Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T09:48:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:55:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-26T09:56:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-26T09:58:28Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-26T09:59:56Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T10:00:54Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:01:07Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:01:13Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:01:13Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T10:01:13Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:05:36Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T10:06:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:06:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:06:52Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T10:06:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:10:46Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T10:11:35Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-26T10:12:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:12:02Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T10:12:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:19:56Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T10:21:11Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:21:11Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T10:21:11Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:23:47Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T10:29:26Z ArneBab quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-01-26T10:30:51Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:41:23Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T10:48:59Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:02:21Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-26T11:07:13Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:07:52Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-26T11:08:37Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-26T11:10:23Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T11:19:41Z Ericson2314 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:19:41Z dieggsy quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:19:41Z deselby quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:19:41Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:19:41Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:19:42Z siraben quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:19:42Z null_radix[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:19:42Z mbakke quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:19:43Z Irvise[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:19:44Z romariorios[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-26T11:22:16Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 262 seconds) 2021-01-26T11:23:16Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:28:01Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:34:55Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:34:55Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:34:55Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:34:55Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:34:55Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:34:55Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:34:55Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:34:55Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:35:02Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:52:47Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-26T11:54:01Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T11:54:42Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T12:00:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T12:05:35Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T12:07:26Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-26T12:10:01Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T12:15:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T12:16:41Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T12:30:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T12:31:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T12:42:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T12:44:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T12:44:03Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T12:44:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T12:53:51Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-01-26T12:54:06Z skapata quit (Killed (adams.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2021-01-26T12:54:07Z skapate is now known as skapata 2021-01-26T13:03:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T13:04:44Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T13:14:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T13:15:24Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T13:18:05Z nilg joined #scheme 2021-01-26T13:22:38Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T13:23:00Z nilg joined #scheme 2021-01-26T13:24:13Z nilg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T13:30:05Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T13:33:26Z Vultyre quit 2021-01-26T13:34:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T13:35:03Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T13:35:36Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-26T13:36:04Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T13:38:23Z Vultyre quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-26T13:44:00Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T13:44:22Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-26T13:50:07Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-26T13:57:49Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T13:59:27Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T14:00:28Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-26T14:07:24Z webshinra_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T14:09:23Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-01-26T14:10:56Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T14:12:11Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T14:12:12Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T14:12:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T14:21:18Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T14:25:43Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2021-01-26T14:28:43Z shawnw quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-26T14:33:11Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-26T14:46:30Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T14:54:58Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-26T14:57:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-26T14:59:14Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-26T15:05:15Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-26T15:25:14Z Vultyre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T15:29:48Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-26T15:32:28Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-26T15:35:19Z iltutmus_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-26T15:35:29Z iltutmus joined #scheme 2021-01-26T15:43:02Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T15:47:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-26T15:50:41Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T15:52:03Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-26T15:52:06Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-26T15:54:34Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T15:54:39Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-26T15:54:47Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-26T15:55:58Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-26T16:00:22Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2021-01-26T16:15:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T16:15:41Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-26T16:37:03Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-26T16:46:49Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-26T16:50:13Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-26T16:54:29Z tryte quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-26T16:54:43Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-26T17:02:32Z sxmx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-26T17:07:42Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-01-26T17:23:43Z sxmx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T17:33:19Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-26T17:34:59Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-26T17:45:29Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-26T18:06:30Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-26T18:10:31Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T18:16:35Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T18:42:43Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T18:43:25Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2021-01-26T19:15:01Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-01-26T19:37:39Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T19:39:40Z aeth__ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T19:40:59Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-26T19:41:01Z aeth__ is now known as aeth 2021-01-26T19:42:33Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T19:52:03Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-26T19:52:24Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-26T19:56:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-26T19:58:19Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-26T19:58:29Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T20:01:05Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-26T20:15:03Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-26T20:16:35Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2021-01-26T20:23:38Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-26T20:26:09Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-26T20:34:36Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T20:35:53Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T20:35:53Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T20:35:53Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T20:43:16Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-26T20:44:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T20:45:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T20:45:33Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T20:45:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T20:48:44Z Anonymous_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T20:57:04Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-26T20:58:25Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-26T20:58:27Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-26T21:01:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T21:02:41Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T21:02:41Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T21:02:41Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T21:12:22Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T21:12:38Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-26T21:16:44Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-26T21:22:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T21:22:50Z ArneBab_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-26T21:34:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T21:35:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T21:36:31Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-26T21:47:58Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-26T21:53:36Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T21:54:53Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T21:54:53Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T21:54:53Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:01:23Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-26T22:01:46Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-26T22:02:32Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:02:33Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T22:13:26Z ArneBab_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T22:13:54Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:14:43Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:18:47Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-26T22:27:36Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-26T22:28:21Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:28:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:28:50Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T22:28:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:30:33Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:52:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T22:53:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:53:31Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-26T22:53:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:57:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-26T22:59:14Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-26T22:59:32Z yosafbridge` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-26T22:59:43Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T23:00:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-26T23:04:04Z cchristiansen joined #scheme 2021-01-26T23:04:54Z mangol: was "Compiler Optimization Based on Viewing LAMBDA as RENAME + GOTO" only printed in the book "AI: An MIT Perspective"? 2021-01-26T23:05:00Z mangol: not available as a standalone paper? 2021-01-26T23:06:08Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-26T23:06:44Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-26T23:13:09Z theruran quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-26T23:16:00Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-26T23:16:16Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-26T23:16:18Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-26T23:22:34Z yosafbridge joined #scheme 2021-01-26T23:28:26Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-26T23:29:50Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-26T23:39:00Z mangol: fantastic post about Racket, Chez, and Racket-on-Chez just in: https://blog.racket-lang.org/2021/01/racket-status.html 2021-01-26T23:39:46Z mangol: arm64 port, parallel GC, new easier bootstrap process for both chez and racket 2021-01-26T23:40:38Z mangol: the default, recommended install of racket 8 will be chez-based 2021-01-26T23:42:40Z Zipheir: Wow. Idris 2 went the same route, I believe. 2021-01-26T23:44:58Z mangol: apparently yes: https://idris2.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tutorial/starting.html 2021-01-26T23:45:20Z mangol: i still dream of a combined common lisp + scheme implementation where both languages are first-class 2021-01-26T23:45:20Z Zipheir: Chez is becoming the default backend for functional languages, it seems. 2021-01-26T23:45:42Z mangol: very interesting considering scheme is a dynamic language 2021-01-26T23:46:49Z mangol: then again javascript is the other default backend to target :D 2021-01-26T23:46:59Z mangol: also as dynamic as they come 2021-01-26T23:48:31Z Zipheir: Interesting point. 2021-01-26T23:48:45Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-26T23:49:07Z Vultyre quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-26T23:49:15Z Vultyre_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T00:00:08Z mangol: mike pall of luajit used to say that it doesn't really matter what language you compile, it's more about how much work is put into the compiler 2021-01-27T00:00:48Z mangol: people were interrogating him like "surely language X is easier to compile than language Y because it has such-and-such feature" and he was like nah 2021-01-27T00:01:44Z mangol: he work on lua beacuse it was there 2021-01-27T00:01:47Z mangol: *worked 2021-01-27T00:02:05Z mangol: not by some enlightened choice to pick lua specifically 2021-01-27T00:06:02Z Zipheir: And the compilation techniques, the layout of the compiler, etc. 2021-01-27T00:06:42Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-27T00:06:45Z c7d9_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T00:10:13Z c7d9 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T00:20:35Z jcowan: well, up to a point: Kernel is surely harder to compile than ordinary languages. 2021-01-27T00:29:25Z jcowan: So is Python, if you want to get 100% correctness without falling into the interpreter more or less constantly. See https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/181944/what-are-the-challenges-related-to-typing-in-writing-a-compiler-for-a-dynamicall/181947#181947 2021-01-27T00:29:25Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/k2ZUU5JUPX 2021-01-27T00:38:17Z zgrep quit (Quit: It's a quitter's world.) 2021-01-27T00:40:36Z zgrep joined #scheme 2021-01-27T00:46:18Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T00:47:39Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-27T00:47:43Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-27T01:07:09Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:07:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T01:10:36Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T01:11:12Z shawnw joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:11:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:13:32Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:16:34Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:16:50Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T01:17:07Z danielkoning quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T01:22:10Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T01:23:39Z danielkoning joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:24:58Z dTal: lua isn't exactly a sophisticated language 2021-01-27T01:26:56Z ArneBab_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T01:28:13Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:28:13Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T01:28:13Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:37:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:41:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T01:42:07Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T01:42:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:42:20Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T01:42:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:44:49Z amerigo joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:45:12Z evdubs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T01:45:34Z evdubs joined #scheme 2021-01-27T01:46:24Z amerigo: when did gambit get faster than chez? 2021-01-27T01:54:07Z gwatt: at least 7 months ago, according to the repo 2021-01-27T02:00:54Z dieggsy: racket on gambit soon? lol 2021-01-27T02:02:27Z gwatt: maybe. I'd also like to see the tests run with a newer build of chez. 9.5.1 was almost two years ago 2021-01-27T02:03:07Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-27T02:17:11Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-27T02:29:08Z cchristiansen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T02:32:26Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T02:32:34Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T02:35:19Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-27T02:36:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T02:41:33Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T02:52:06Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T02:55:47Z dTal: I don't think much of Gambit's website https://gambitscheme.org/ 2021-01-27T03:02:37Z Zipheir: I believe this is what it's going to be https://daviwil.com/gambit-site-demo/ 2021-01-27T03:04:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T03:06:35Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-27T03:15:58Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-27T03:22:39Z shawnw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T03:31:45Z Vultyre_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-27T03:31:56Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-27T03:34:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T03:36:05Z siraben: Zipheir: fancy 2021-01-27T03:37:38Z Zipheir: You can tell it's a modern site because it's got lots of padding and a pastel color scheme. 2021-01-27T03:39:21Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T03:43:08Z siraben: Adapts to small window sizes too 2021-01-27T03:44:07Z siraben: What? Doesn't list NixOS at the bottom? Must send a patch! 2021-01-27T03:44:49Z siraben: Hm, it's unclear where the source of the website is. 2021-01-27T03:45:11Z siraben: https://github.com/daviwil/gambit-site-demo 2021-01-27T03:45:38Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T03:50:35Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T03:56:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T03:58:50Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-27T03:58:54Z [d] quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-27T03:59:01Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T03:59:07Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:01:46Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T04:01:52Z lambda-11235 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:02:22Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:05:11Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:06:02Z cpape quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T04:06:37Z cpape` joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:07:51Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:08:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:08:31Z Garbanzo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:08:32Z even4void[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:08:32Z paulj quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:08:32Z Lysandros quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:08:32Z heredoc quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:08:32Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:08:32Z cky quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:08:46Z iv-so quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:09:25Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:11:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T04:12:43Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:13:18Z sdu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:14:16Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:14:37Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:14:59Z iv-so joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:20:27Z romariorios[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:20:27Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:20:36Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:20:36Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-27T04:20:49Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:20:49Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:20:49Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:20:57Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:21:18Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:21:18Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:23:27Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:24:00Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:34:10Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:34:10Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:34:10Z Lysandros joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:34:10Z heredoc joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:34:10Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:34:10Z cky joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:34:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:36:00Z Garbanzo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:36:00Z paulj quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:36:00Z Lysandros quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:36:00Z heredoc quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:36:00Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:36:00Z cky quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:38:08Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:38:08Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:38:08Z Lysandros joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:38:08Z heredoc joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:38:08Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:38:08Z cky joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:39:41Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:44:34Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:45:01Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:45:38Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:46:05Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:46:13Z Vultyre joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:47:37Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-27T04:54:23Z Garbanzo quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:54:23Z paulj quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:54:23Z Lysandros quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:54:23Z heredoc quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:54:23Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:54:24Z cky quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T04:56:44Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:57:03Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T04:57:07Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:57:07Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:57:07Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:57:07Z Lysandros joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:57:07Z heredoc joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:57:07Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:57:07Z cky joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:57:17Z Irvise[m] quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T04:57:17Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T04:57:54Z nckx joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:00:46Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-27T05:01:24Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T05:09:19Z romariorios[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z Zipheir quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z jcowan: mangol: "Compiler Optimization" etc. was an early draft of Steele's dissertation: the Rabbit compiler. 2021-01-27T05:09:20Z jcowan: or possibly the first part without the facing-page literate code 2021-01-27T05:09:50Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:10:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T05:12:00Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:15:54Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:16:35Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T05:17:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:17:12Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T05:17:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:20:04Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T05:21:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T05:22:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:37:54Z casmajavi joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:41:08Z casmajavi quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-27T05:41:24Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-27T05:41:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:41:32Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T05:41:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:48:56Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T05:50:09Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:53:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T05:53:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:54:06Z ArneBab quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-27T05:55:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:55:22Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T05:55:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:58:10Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-27T05:58:48Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:59:04Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-27T05:59:24Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:01:44Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:01:45Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:04:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T06:04:22Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-27T06:05:29Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:06:52Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:09:56Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T06:11:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:11:12Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T06:11:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:13:28Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:13:29Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:16:06Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:17:36Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T06:18:08Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:18:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:18:52Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T06:18:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:19:01Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:23:36Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T06:24:30Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:31:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T06:31:58Z siraben: "are all elems in this list eqv?" why not use a fold for that? 2021-01-27T06:32:34Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:33:53Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:35:46Z ArneBab quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-27T06:36:04Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:39:25Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T06:39:28Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:40:56Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T06:42:13Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:42:13Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T06:42:13Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:46:17Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:48:56Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:51:36Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T06:52:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:55:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T06:55:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-27T06:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T06:58:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-27T07:02:42Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T07:03:52Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T07:04:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T07:05:17Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-27T07:05:34Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T07:08:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T07:08:48Z Zipheir: siraben: What problem does that refer to? 2021-01-27T07:09:24Z siraben: Zipheir: it appears dieggsy wants to write a function that checks if every element in a non-empty list is the same 2021-01-27T07:09:38Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T07:10:21Z Zipheir: siraben: Ah, ok. Yeah, a fold. 2021-01-27T07:10:31Z dieggsy: I used a loop, but I was wondering about a more elegant r5rs/srfi-1 solution 2021-01-27T07:10:39Z siraben: Definitely a fold. 2021-01-27T07:10:54Z siraben: Hm I forget what's the Scheme equivalent of foldl1 2021-01-27T07:11:42Z dieggsy: that makes sense. I mentioned a fold but I couldn't come up with a way, though it is late and my brain is tired 2021-01-27T07:11:59Z siraben: dieggsy: ah, use reduce-right 2021-01-27T07:12:36Z Zipheir: The wrinkle in the fold solution is that you'll want to short-circuit with call/cc. 2021-01-27T07:12:41Z siraben: (reduce (lambda (a b) (eqv? a b)) (error "empty") l) 2021-01-27T07:12:59Z siraben: Yeah, heh. Or use a continuation-passing fold 2021-01-27T07:13:16Z siraben: Oh that won't work, oops 2021-01-27T07:13:35Z Zipheir: Yeah, reduce is just a special case for saving an exection of the folded proceduer. 2021-01-27T07:13:39Z Zipheir: procedure, even. 2021-01-27T07:14:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T07:15:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T07:16:12Z Zipheir: The loop version is probably the simplest option. 2021-01-27T07:16:41Z siraben: dieggsy: seems like the easiest way would be get the head of the list and do (every (lambda (x) (eqv? h x) (cdr l)) 2021-01-27T07:16:56Z siraben: but that traverses the whole list 2021-01-27T07:17:07Z Zipheir: siraben: No, it doesn't. every short-circuits. 2021-01-27T07:17:13Z Zipheir: *That's* the best option. 2021-01-27T07:17:18Z siraben: Oh, cool 2021-01-27T07:17:45Z siraben: Also mismatched my parens, heh 2021-01-27T07:17:56Z siraben: (every (lambda (x) (eqv? h x)) (cdr l)) 2021-01-27T07:21:00Z dieggsy: neat, thanks! 2021-01-27T07:40:39Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T07:42:57Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-27T07:43:26Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T07:44:23Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-27T07:51:06Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T07:52:56Z mangol: jcowan: thanks. so "Rabbit: A compiler for Scheme" contains all the ideas in "LAMBDA as RENAME + GOTO" and more 2021-01-27T07:53:11Z mangol: Rabbit was a master's thesis. pretty crazy. 2021-01-27T07:56:40Z mangol: dieggsy: gwatt: the one big advantage that Chez has over Gambit is that `eval` can compile the expression to native code (as in SBCL) 2021-01-27T07:57:28Z mangol: Gambit intrinsically has a separate compiler and interpreter. not sure whether there are plans to merge the compiler into the interpreter in the future. 2021-01-27T07:57:58Z mangol: Gambit now has a native-code backend in the works, in addition to the C backend that it's always had 2021-01-27T07:58:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T07:58:31Z mangol: i don't know this, but i suspect that for something as massive and complicated as Racket a high-performance `eval` is a big deal 2021-01-27T07:59:24Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T08:00:01Z mangol: (to be pedantic, i don't know whether SBCL's eval compiles to native code. but Common Lisp has a standard `compile` function so you could call that before eval.) 2021-01-27T08:01:12Z mangol: does MIT Scheme compile expressions to native code from the REPL before evaluating them? 2021-01-27T08:07:28Z mangol: jcowan: dTal: some languages are ordinarily harder to compile than others, sure. but it's not clear whether that's the case for really advanced compilers like luajit 2021-01-27T08:07:28Z mangol: maybe once the compiler gets good enough, other concerns start to dominate the language-semantics concerns 2021-01-27T08:07:28Z mangol: a C compiler that generates fast code is way easier to write than a Lisp compiler that generates fast code, but is the best C compiler easier to write than the best Lisp compiler? that's not as clear 2021-01-27T08:10:45Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T08:11:06Z mangol: jcowan: AFAICT the link you posted talks about ahead-of-time (AOT) compilers for Python. but the first thing a designer would do to make an advanced compiler for Python language semantics would be to go for tracing JIT instead of AOT 2021-01-27T08:12:24Z mangol: it's a testament to the design of Lisp and Scheme that we can get so far with only AOT compilers. Gambit, Chez, SBCL, LispWorks are all AOT AFAIK 2021-01-27T08:12:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T08:14:00Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T08:24:57Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T08:25:34Z lambda-11235 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-27T08:26:45Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T08:51:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T08:56:07Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T09:04:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T09:04:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-27T09:08:07Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T09:09:29Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T09:10:40Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-27T09:13:57Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T09:28:51Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T09:45:00Z lambda-11235 quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-01-27T09:55:51Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T09:58:51Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-27T10:16:19Z copec joined #scheme 2021-01-27T10:35:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T10:35:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-27T10:46:11Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-27T10:48:05Z lockywolf_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-27T10:50:20Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2021-01-27T11:00:46Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T11:00:52Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T11:23:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T11:24:01Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T11:24:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T11:24:40Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T11:24:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T11:25:43Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-27T11:34:50Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T11:35:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T11:36:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T11:36:20Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T11:36:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T11:41:16Z ArneBab quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-01-27T11:42:34Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T11:56:18Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:01:56Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T12:03:14Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:04:16Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:11:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T12:12:24Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:19:31Z amerigo joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:19:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T12:21:04Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:31:58Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:32:29Z Major_Biscuit quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-27T12:33:03Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T12:33:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T12:34:44Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:36:28Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:43:39Z jcowan: I think you underestimate the problem significantly. Python programmers are used to treating "def" and "class" as if they were declarations, as in Java or C. But they are actually executable statements that side-effect the running interpreter. Java systems have to deal with loading unknown classes at runtime, but not with random changes to them. 2021-01-27T12:46:00Z jcowan: Both SBCL and MIT Scheme 'eval' by compiling. 2021-01-27T12:49:13Z jcowan: As both Gambit and Chicken are compilers-to-C, this is not (yet) practical, because it takes forever to run gcc or clang (this is most of the time spent when you compile with Chicken). 2021-01-27T12:49:22Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:52:01Z jcowan: Currently Chicken's output cannot be compiled with tcc. If that chnaged (along with modularizing the Chicken compiler) it really would permit AOT compiling at runtime. Not all programs would want to pay the price of being linked to the compiler and tcc, though. 2021-01-27T12:52:49Z lritter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-27T12:55:02Z jobol_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T12:55:25Z jobol_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T13:06:03Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-27T13:10:04Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-27T13:11:06Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-27T13:16:02Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T13:17:04Z amirouche quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-01-27T13:17:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T13:19:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T13:19:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-27T13:27:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T13:28:34Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T13:33:50Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T13:59:33Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:04:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T14:06:12Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:06:12Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T14:09:15Z ArneBab_ quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-27T14:09:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:14:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T14:15:24Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:15:24Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T14:15:24Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:23:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T14:24:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:24:31Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T14:24:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:29:18Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-27T14:36:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T14:37:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:37:42Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T14:37:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:46:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T14:47:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:49:50Z catchme joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:53:55Z casmajavi joined #scheme 2021-01-27T14:59:52Z casmajavi quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-27T14:59:58Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T15:00:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T15:00:38Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:01:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:01:34Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T15:01:34Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:10:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T15:11:43Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:15:59Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T15:16:36Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T15:17:53Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:17:53Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T15:17:54Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:25:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:29:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T15:31:11Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:32:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T15:33:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:33:33Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T15:33:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:36:06Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T15:37:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:41:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T15:43:46Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-27T15:48:53Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:48:57Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:50:25Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:59:12Z klovett quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T15:59:31Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-27T15:59:34Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-27T16:00:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T16:01:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:01:42Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T16:01:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:08:36Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T16:09:51Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:09:51Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T16:09:51Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:11:03Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:14:26Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:15:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:15:02Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T16:15:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:37:47Z bchar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:37:49Z d_run quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:37:50Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:37:50Z duncanm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:37:50Z mats quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:37:51Z CORPORAL_groovy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:37:53Z ec quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:37:56Z Boarders quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:37:59Z samth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:05Z dto quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:05Z rickbutton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:07Z dnm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:09Z stephe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:14Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:14Z Balooga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:14Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:14Z cemerick quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:15Z Duns_Scrotus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:15Z gf3 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:15Z conjunctive quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:20Z sz0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:20Z rann quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:21Z kwmiebach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:21Z englishm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:21Z physpi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:38:21Z catchme quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:40:14Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:40:38Z CORPORAL_groovy joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:40:50Z dto joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:40:50Z rickbutton joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:40:51Z dnm joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:41:06Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:41:06Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:41:07Z englishm joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:41:07Z kwmiebach joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:41:13Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:41:26Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T16:42:03Z bchar joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:42:26Z Duns_Scrotus joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:42:30Z duncanm joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:42:30Z rudybot: la la la 2021-01-27T16:42:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:42:46Z catchme joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:43:14Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:43:39Z d_run joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:44:01Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:44:01Z mats joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:44:03Z stephe joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:44:12Z conjunctive joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:45:26Z samth joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:45:53Z romariorios[m]: Hey, I've been struggling with this for a bit, but is there a way in pure scheme for me to append some string to a symbol in a macro? 2021-01-27T16:46:44Z romariorios[m]: I know you can do it in Racket, but I'm not sure about scheme 2021-01-27T16:49:26Z dieggsy: romariorios: (string->symbol (string-append "str" (symbol->string 'sym))) if you want the output to be a symbol 2021-01-27T16:49:51Z dieggsy: ....otherwise same withuot string->symbol 2021-01-27T16:50:07Z romariorios[m]: I want the output to be a function definition 2021-01-27T16:50:11Z romariorios[m]: Like 2021-01-27T16:50:34Z jcowan joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:50:38Z cemerick joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:50:55Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:50:58Z physpi joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:51:09Z romariorios[m] sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/gEJiGqBUJrzpikEGTORoetNL/message.txt > 2021-01-27T16:51:44Z dieggsy: romariorios: point of pedantry but you can't 'append a symbol to a string' and have that result in a function definition. it sounds like you want to append a symbol to a string for use as a function name in a macro that defines functions 2021-01-27T16:52:10Z dieggsy: romariorios: so your question is more about macros that the actual apend 2021-01-27T16:52:11Z romariorios[m]: I know 2021-01-27T16:52:20Z romariorios[m]: Yeah 2021-01-27T16:52:52Z romariorios[m]: I'm on the phone, you can't expect me to be technically precise with my terminology :p 2021-01-27T16:53:38Z dieggsy: precise questions lead to precise answers, heh. no worries! different schemes have different ways. in Chicken you can use er-macro-transformer or ir-macro-transformer. i wouldn't know about other schemes off the top of my head 2021-01-27T16:53:45Z dieggsy: gambit has define-macro 2021-01-27T16:54:13Z dieggsy: what you're looking for is probably "unhygienic macros" which might give you an avenue for searching about it in your preferred scheme 2021-01-27T16:54:20Z gwatt: romariorios[m]: It depends on which scheme you are using. Any R6RS has a way to do this. Other schemes may have the er/ir-macro-transformers or sc-macro-transformers which can also do it 2021-01-27T16:54:28Z romariorios[m]: Yeah, I know about these too. That's why I asked about "pure scheme" 2021-01-27T16:55:00Z romariorios[m]: I'm interested in this r6rs way you're talking about 2021-01-27T16:55:39Z Boarders quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:55:39Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:55:50Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T16:56:01Z Balooga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:56:07Z rann joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:56:15Z ec joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:56:15Z gwatt: romariorios[m]: You'd use the afore-mentioned string-append + string->symbol, and the r6rs has a function datum->syntax which will turn a symbol into syntax-object, which you can use as your function name 2021-01-27T16:56:18Z gf3 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:56:24Z jcowan joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:56:29Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:56:30Z gwatt: datum->syntax takes two arguments, the template and the datum. 2021-01-27T16:56:43Z dieggsy: in pure r5rs/r7rs not AFAIA 2021-01-27T16:57:31Z romariorios[m]: Oh, cool. I didn't know datum->syntax was standard r6rs 2021-01-27T16:57:33Z physpi joined #scheme 2021-01-27T16:57:34Z gwatt: romariorios[m]: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-13.html#node_idx_1146 2021-01-27T16:57:47Z romariorios[m]: Wait, but it was them dropped in r7rs? 2021-01-27T16:57:54Z romariorios[m]: *then 2021-01-27T16:58:30Z gwatt: yes. r7rs doesn't specify a macro system beyond syntax-rules, at least not yet 2021-01-27T16:58:56Z romariorios[m]: Is r7rs finished, or... 2021-01-27T16:59:41Z gwatt: r7rs-small is finished and has been for several years. Work is ongoing for the expanded editions 2021-01-27T16:59:55Z gwatt: jcowan: ^^ r7rs questions I'm not qualified to answer 2021-01-27T17:01:40Z jcowan: R7RS-small is a fairly small increment on top of R5RS, with some features from R6RS but others not. R7RS-large is coming out in increments and will be much larger than (but not 100% compatible with) R6RS. 2021-01-27T17:01:50Z romariorios[m]: Thanks for the answers 😃 2021-01-27T17:01:55Z jcowan: np 2021-01-27T17:03:31Z romariorios[m]: I'm deciding which scheme to settle on for some projects of mine and I found r5rs's macros to be somewhat lacking 2021-01-27T17:04:11Z romariorios[m]: And I'm trying not to tie myself to a specific implementation 2021-01-27T17:06:02Z dieggsy: without using whatever unhygienic macro implementation the scheme provides, you're probably then limited to r6rs schemes, but r6rs isn't the most portable standard across implementatiosn. 2021-01-27T17:07:19Z dieggsy: but if you wanted to go that route, maybe racket with #!r6rs at the top would work best? i dunno 2021-01-27T17:08:21Z phwalkr joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:09:00Z dieggsy: jcowan: is chicken not working with TCC mostly do to the use of 'alloca' ? that's an error i'm seeing when trying... 2021-01-27T17:09:07Z dieggsy: due* 2021-01-27T17:09:14Z phwalkr: Hello guys! Does anyone have a suggestion on how can I check is a variable is unbound? 2021-01-27T17:09:35Z jcowan: dieggsy: There is that, but there may be ogher issues: ask on #chicken 2021-01-27T17:09:55Z phwalkr: correction: how can I check *if* a variable is unbound? 2021-01-27T17:10:19Z phwalkr: I'm trying to automate some tests 2021-01-27T17:10:54Z dieggsy: phwalkr: as far as i'm aware there isn't a portable way to do that - what scheme are you using? ...in general you might consider rethinking the program 2021-01-27T17:12:11Z mangol: phwalkr: it sounds like you should use parameter objects (https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-39/srfi-39.html and standard in R6RS and R7RS) to solve your problem 2021-01-27T17:12:15Z phwalkr: dieggsy: Thanks for answering! I'm using gambit. 2021-01-27T17:12:48Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T17:13:14Z mangol: gambit probably has a procedure you can use to iterate all bound identifiers in the current environment, which you could use to check whether the name of the variable you want is there, 2021-01-27T17:13:19Z epony joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:13:32Z mangol: but we rarely if ever use low-level tricks like that 2021-01-27T17:13:46Z phwalkr: mangol: Thanks for sharing! 2021-01-27T17:14:24Z phwalkr: Indeed maybe that strategy could solve the issue 2021-01-27T17:16:26Z phwalkr: Thanks guys! 2021-01-27T17:17:04Z mangol: even in Common Lisp, which has `boundp` (http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_boundp.htm), that function only checks whether the symbol is bound in the _global_ environment, 2021-01-27T17:17:16Z mangol: if the symbol is bound in the lexical environment boundp will miss it 2021-01-27T17:17:26Z jcowan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T17:17:33Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T17:17:45Z Boarders quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T17:17:50Z cemerick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T17:19:07Z jcowan joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:19:21Z cemerick joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:19:24Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:20:48Z physpi joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:21:30Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T17:21:43Z kilimanjaro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T17:26:43Z kilimanjaro joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:32:07Z romariorios[m]: Yeah, Racket seems like the most complete scheme-like thing we have so far, but I have the impression it's kinda sluggish compared to other schemes 2021-01-27T17:32:08Z romariorios[m]: (My impression might be wrong, though) 2021-01-27T17:34:36Z dieggsy: romariorios: actually, it does alright for itself https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/ 2021-01-27T17:34:37Z Zipheir: We'll see what happens when they switch to a Chez backend. 2021-01-27T17:34:55Z Zipheir: Yeah, it's always done well on the ecraven benchmarks. 2021-01-27T17:35:12Z dieggsy: i found it to be quite a bit snappier than chicken, anyway 2021-01-27T17:35:45Z Zipheir: And CHICKEN (the compiler, at least) is pretty snappy. 2021-01-27T17:36:49Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:39:43Z sdu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T17:41:33Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:41:44Z sdu joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:41:57Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T17:42:02Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T17:46:36Z phwalkr: mangol: the use case is quite simple. I'd like to check is a file was already loaded. I figured that checking if a function or a variable is bounded would be the easiest way 2021-01-27T17:47:07Z mangol: a file of Scheme code? 2021-01-27T17:47:30Z mangol: as in (load ...) or (import ...) 2021-01-27T17:49:40Z mangol: if so, do you control the contents of that source file or do you have to support arbitrary source files? 2021-01-27T17:49:41Z phwalkr: yes, exactly! 2021-01-27T17:50:07Z phwalkr: I do control de contents of the source 2021-01-27T17:50:14Z mangol: easiest is to use a global variable to keep track of all the files you've loaded. then either use your own file-loading function that pushes the filename to that list 2021-01-27T17:50:37Z mangol: or edit all the source files you'll be loading so that they "register" themselves into the global list when they are loaded 2021-01-27T17:51:19Z mangol: are you doing some kind of plug-in system where each source file is a plug-in? 2021-01-27T17:51:27Z phwalkr: mangol: hm.. very clever! 2021-01-27T17:53:28Z phwalkr: I have some components in separated files and I'm writes separate tests for them. Some of them depends on another module A. 2021-01-27T17:53:39Z phwalkr: I'm writing* 2021-01-27T17:54:24Z phwalkr: So with the strategy you just suggest will be easy to know if some other component has already loaded module A. 2021-01-27T17:54:35Z phwalkr: mangol: Thanks! 2021-01-27T17:55:00Z mangol: if you only need to know which files have been loaded for the tests, and don't need to know it otherwise, 2021-01-27T17:55:07Z romariorios[m]: I'll take a look at that when I'm on mobile. I wasn't able to parse the graphs. 2021-01-27T17:55:13Z mangol: it's easiest to split the tests into two files. 2021-01-27T17:55:28Z romariorios[m]: (when I'm not on mobile) 2021-01-27T17:55:58Z mangol: if A.scm has some parts that depend on B.scm, and other parts that don't depend on anything, easiest to split the A.scm tests into test-A.scm and test-A-requiring-B.scm 2021-01-27T17:56:33Z mangol: instead of having all of the tests in test-A.scm with complex logic to figure out whether B.scm has also been loaded 2021-01-27T17:56:56Z mangol: then when testing, you can manually run test-A.scm and/or test-A-requiring-B.scm as needed 2021-01-27T17:56:58Z phwalkr: hm.. you're right! 2021-01-27T17:57:34Z phwalkr: yeah, thank you once more, mangol! 2021-01-27T17:57:40Z mangol: no prob :) 2021-01-27T17:57:59Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T17:58:29Z mangol: i often split one module's tests into multiple files. for example, if some tests are much slower than the others, test-A.scm and test-A-slow.scm so i don't have to run the slow tests every time 2021-01-27T18:00:27Z samth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:00:32Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:00:43Z dto quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:00:45Z samth joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:00:49Z physpi joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:01:02Z dto joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:02:28Z phwalkr: Nice! I'll keep that in mind! 2021-01-27T18:04:23Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:04:54Z rann quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:04:54Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:05:09Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:05:13Z rann joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:07:03Z dieggsy: mangol: not a bad idea. then a 'full' tests file becomes easier to manage too, you 'include' the individual test files, and you can even comment out the ones you want to exclude if they're slow or known to work as you debug the other tests 2021-01-27T18:07:29Z dieggsy: .....this might be useful for managing tests in my chicken port of srfi-179 because there's a literal gazillion of them 2021-01-27T18:08:21Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:10:55Z Zipheir: include is massively useful. 2021-01-27T18:11:48Z Zipheir: So, too, are nestable modules, but some Schemes don't support that. 2021-01-27T18:12:04Z mangol: good idea! lets you have scripts like the-usual-tests.scm and comprehensive-tests.scm which simply include right groups of tests. 2021-01-27T18:13:50Z theruran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:13:50Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:14:00Z samth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:14:11Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:14:12Z dto quit (Read error: Network is unreachable) 2021-01-27T18:15:29Z Zipheir: Exactly. We shouldn't need any hacks to manage scope if we have include, import, and define-library. 2021-01-27T18:15:57Z mangol: arguably (include ...) is a hack to manage scope though :) 2021-01-27T18:16:05Z mangol: i always feel dirty when i use it 2021-01-27T18:16:14Z rann quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:16:44Z Zipheir: I don't think it's a big deal. It's just a mechanical paste-this-file's-contents-here statment. 2021-01-27T18:17:04Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:17:18Z mangol: pathname resolution is no walk in the park 2021-01-27T18:17:21Z Boarders quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:17:21Z dnm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:17:33Z physpi joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:17:39Z Zipheir: No, certainly not. 2021-01-27T18:17:45Z mangol: and splicing pathname resolution, which lies outside the remit of RnRS, into library names which reside within the RnRS universe 2021-01-27T18:17:56Z Zipheir: But we already deal with that with `load', anyways. 2021-01-27T18:18:00Z mangol: include works just fine most of the time, but when you think about what it does, it shouldn't :D 2021-01-27T18:18:08Z mangol: load is even worse :D :D 2021-01-27T18:18:29Z dnm joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:18:39Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:18:39Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:18:49Z samth joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:18:53Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:18:57Z dto joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:19:05Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:19:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T18:19:21Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:19:26Z catchme quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-27T18:19:56Z rann joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:20:03Z dieggsy: chicken has include-relative which is nice 2021-01-27T18:20:24Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:20:43Z faLUKE: hello, how can I transform '(1 2 3) into this string: "1.2.3" ? thanks 2021-01-27T18:21:12Z mangol: dieggsy: most/all schemes i've come across treat include like include-relative 2021-01-27T18:21:20Z dieggsy: ah, good! 2021-01-27T18:21:29Z mangol: i.e. search relative to the file where the (include ...) appears 2021-01-27T18:21:31Z Zipheir: faLUKE: string-join 2021-01-27T18:22:56Z dieggsy: faLUKE: in particular, you might want to map number->string to the list before string-join 2021-01-27T18:23:03Z Zipheir: Well, (string-join (map number->string LIST-OF-NUMBERS) ".") 2021-01-27T18:23:15Z dieggsy: ditto 2021-01-27T18:23:19Z Zipheir: Yup. 2021-01-27T18:23:34Z faLUKE: Zipheir: (string-join (map number->string '(1 2 3)) ".") ? 2021-01-27T18:24:24Z Zipheir: It's too much work for that little list, but that's the expression I'd use in general. 2021-01-27T18:24:58Z faLUKE: Zipheir: I mean: is that syntax correct? (string-join (map number->string '(1 2 3)) ".") 2021-01-27T18:25:16Z dnm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:25:19Z Zipheir: Yes. What would be wrong about it? 2021-01-27T18:25:24Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:25:28Z Boarders quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:25:30Z samth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:25:33Z faLUKE: Zipheir: thanks, I'm a dumbass in sche,e 2021-01-27T18:25:34Z faLUKE: scheme 2021-01-27T18:25:42Z Zipheir: faLUKE: For more on string-join, take a look at https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-152/srfi-152.html#Concatenation 2021-01-27T18:26:00Z Zipheir: faLUKE: Don't worry, it's hard to keep track of everything. 2021-01-27T18:27:15Z Zipheir: You'll probably need to import string-join from one of the several string libraries it lives in: SRFI 152, 130, or 13. 2021-01-27T18:27:32Z rann quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:27:33Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:27:38Z theruran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:27:44Z faLUKE: Zipheir: yeah, I'm seeing that I have to import it. Then I wonder if is there a guile solution 2021-01-27T18:28:09Z faLUKE: I know this is #scheme but AFAIK #guile chan is silent 2021-01-27T18:28:40Z Zipheir: Guile apparently has string-join in their basic string library https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/String-Constructors.html 2021-01-27T18:28:54Z Zipheir: And it's consistent with the form found in the SRFIs, AFAICT. 2021-01-27T18:29:23Z dto quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:29:23Z Zipheir: "Guile provides all procedures of SRFI-13 and a few more." 2021-01-27T18:29:25Z faLUKE: Zipheir: mmmh I get error with (define lilyVersion (string-join (map number->string '(1 2 3)) ".")) 2021-01-27T18:30:00Z Zipheir: Missing close paren? 2021-01-27T18:30:25Z faLUKE: where? 2021-01-27T18:31:09Z Zipheir: (define ... 2021-01-27T18:31:28Z Zipheir: Although that may just be a copypasta artifact. 2021-01-27T18:31:52Z dnm joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:31:56Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:31:56Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:31:57Z faLUKE: parenthesis are right 2021-01-27T18:31:59Z samth joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:32:08Z Zipheir: faLUKE: What kind of error? 2021-01-27T18:32:10Z faLUKE: then there's something wrong with the guild interpreter 2021-01-27T18:32:45Z faLUKE: guile 2021-01-27T18:33:14Z dto joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:33:21Z rann joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:33:21Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:33:40Z mangol: copy-pasting (define lilyVersion (string-join (map number->string '(1 2 3)) ".")) verbatim into guile 3.0.5 works fine for me 2021-01-27T18:33:40Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:33:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T18:34:16Z mdhughes: (import (srfi s13 strings)) or equivalent 2021-01-27T18:35:45Z faLUKE: doesn't work: http://lilybin.com/fgj8hj/1 2021-01-27T18:36:20Z faLUKE: maybe it's a guile version older than 3.0 2021-01-27T18:37:07Z faLUKE: (If I use only: #(define foo "foo") it works) 2021-01-27T18:38:07Z jcowan: There's some advice in R7RS, which amounts to "do it like C" 2021-01-27T18:38:20Z jcowan: (include, I mean) 2021-01-27T18:38:26Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:38:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T18:38:33Z faLUKE: it's R5RS 2021-01-27T18:39:04Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T18:39:06Z jcowan: Note: Implementations are encouraged to search for files in 2021-01-27T18:39:06Z jcowan: the directory which contains the including file, and to provide a way for users to specify other directories to search. 2021-01-27T18:39:29Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:39:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:39:42Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T18:39:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:40:43Z Zipheir: faLUKE: Guile is R6RS, unless it's a very old version, which is *quite possible* if you're working with LilyPond. 2021-01-27T18:40:58Z Zipheir: IIRC they're still using 1.* series Guile. 2021-01-27T18:41:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:41:45Z jcowan: faLUKE: The problem is that you didn't quote (1 2 3), so it is trying to apply 1 as a procedure, which of course it isn't. 2021-01-27T18:43:07Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:43:45Z faLUKE: jcowan: right 2021-01-27T18:43:51Z faLUKE: well, just solved, thanks to all 2021-01-27T18:44:52Z faLUKE: this channel is very helpful 2021-01-27T18:45:11Z faLUKE: and active 2021-01-27T18:45:42Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:46:40Z Zipheir: rudybot: Another satisfied customer! 2021-01-27T18:46:40Z rudybot: Zipheir: another satisfied customer 2021-01-27T18:47:49Z ecraven: clojure has integers as "procedures", used to index into collections, right? 2021-01-27T18:47:56Z ecraven: (1 '(1 2 3)) might return 2 2021-01-27T18:49:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T18:49:09Z jcowan: I personally would rather have ('(1 2 3) 1), like (list-ref '(1 2 3) 1) 2021-01-27T18:50:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:50:22Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T18:50:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T18:51:21Z ecraven: (key collection) wouldn't work well, what if key is a function? should it be applied to collection, or should it index? 2021-01-27T18:51:28Z Zipheir: Integers as procedures seems like it would add a huge class of undetectable errors to your Scheme programs. 2021-01-27T18:52:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:53:06Z ecraven: I'm not suggesting this, just saying I saw it somewhere, not sure whether it actually was clojure or some other lisp 2021-01-27T18:53:45Z jcowan: In Picolisp, a machine-language subroutine is invoked by its address, which is an integer, so ((+ car 1) x) is perfectly valid except that your process probably goes boom 2021-01-27T18:53:57Z Zipheir: Feh. 2021-01-27T18:54:06Z gwatt: I think clojure makes the :keyword symbols callable, at least for map lookups 2021-01-27T18:54:35Z ecraven: ah, also I got the order wrong, clojure seems to support (collection key) 2021-01-27T18:54:37Z samth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:54:43Z rann quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:54:55Z gwatt: ah, that makes more sense 2021-01-27T18:54:58Z dto quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:54:59Z ecraven: so each collection is also a lookup function 2021-01-27T18:55:00Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:55:00Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:55:04Z Boarders quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:55:04Z sz0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T18:55:12Z ecraven: that sounds like it would be useful (and not ambiguous, like the other way around) 2021-01-27T18:56:03Z Zipheir: At least it's not likely to give silent bugs. 2021-01-27T18:56:29Z gwatt: Yeah, I agree. As long as it's a fundamental language feature. I probably wouldn't want to be reading scheme code that had one library doing that 2021-01-27T18:56:34Z ecraven: but it's way too polymorphic for Scheme :P 2021-01-27T18:56:43Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:57:05Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T18:57:07Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:57:32Z ecraven: I've written some opengl code using my primitive predicate-dispatch library, and it is slow as molasses... 2021-01-27T18:57:33Z jcowan: I wouldn't mind apply* that would be polymorphic in its first argument. 2021-01-27T18:57:59Z ecraven: jcowan: ah, but the point is not having *any* function, imho. otherwise, you don't gain much 2021-01-27T18:58:22Z jcowan: Well, there has to be a function under the table that is very like apply*. 2021-01-27T18:58:23Z Zipheir: What is application without procedures? 2021-01-27T18:58:32Z gwatt: I think you gain a bit just by polymorphism. 2021-01-27T18:58:46Z jcowan: (procedure-or-collection arg ...) 2021-01-27T18:59:03Z ecraven: Zipheir: MIT/GNU Scheme (and some others) allow you to define what happens if you apply certain sorts of objects 2021-01-27T18:59:04Z Zipheir: There's got to be a procedure call somewhere. 2021-01-27T18:59:04Z jcowan: er, (apply* proc-or-coll arg ...) 2021-01-27T18:59:20Z gwatt: until you reach turtles 2021-01-27T18:59:32Z ecraven: so it would be trivial to implement what I just said in MIT/GNU Scheme, to make hashtables or vectors applicable 2021-01-27T18:59:35Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-27T18:59:40Z Zipheir: gwatt: The turtles are λs. 2021-01-27T19:01:01Z ecraven: hm.. is (apply* my-vector 5) better enough than (vector-ref my-vector 5) to warrant an extra procedure? 2021-01-27T19:01:15Z ecraven: also, if it is polymorphic, it really should be extensible :-/ 2021-01-27T19:01:20Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:01:34Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:01:37Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:01:40Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-27T19:01:55Z Zipheir: It's not any better than (ref VEC IDX), if ref is your parameterized index procedure. 2021-01-27T19:02:01Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-27T19:02:05Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:02:10Z Boarders joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:02:16Z gwatt: I assume mit-scheme has a way to register a real function when you attempt to call a non-function? 2021-01-27T19:04:07Z samth joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:04:25Z rann joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:04:42Z ecraven: yes, there's two ways to do it: apply hooks (which get passed exactly the procedure arguments) and entities (which also get the entity itself) 2021-01-27T19:05:05Z dnm joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:05:20Z ecraven: so this allows you to define objects that when called, run some lambda and maybe even get an extra "state" object 2021-01-27T19:05:33Z ecraven: some other Schemes have this too, I think. racket at least has something similar 2021-01-27T19:05:55Z ecraven: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-7.4/doc-html/scheme_13.html#SEC123 2021-01-27T19:05:56Z jcowan: You can look on any single-argument procedure as an unreified collection 2021-01-27T19:06:12Z ecraven: jcowan: some collections might take more than one argument 2021-01-27T19:06:37Z jcowan: True, although I think the only one currently planned is arrays. 2021-01-27T19:06:44Z ecraven: but again, this all is very polymorphic, not what Scheme has been doing for decades 2021-01-27T19:07:23Z jobol quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T19:07:23Z ecraven: I've used ref procedures for nested hashtables with great abandon, so I can do (ref table 'foo 'bar 'baz) 2021-01-27T19:08:08Z jcowan: Does your version do auto-vivification? I've always thought that was a very nice Perl feature 2021-01-27T19:08:41Z jcowan: actually that only matters for set, I guess 2021-01-27T19:08:55Z ecraven: yea, I definitely don't do it for get ;) 2021-01-27T19:09:23Z ecraven: for set!, it actually does ;) 2021-01-27T19:10:03Z ecraven: http://ix.io/2NuN 2021-01-27T19:10:36Z ecraven: I also think that (put! collection value . keys) is the correct order 2021-01-27T19:10:46Z ecraven: so value needs to come first, and then the key / keys 2021-01-27T19:10:50Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-27T19:11:58Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-27T19:12:16Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:12:59Z ecraven: somewhere I have a generic ref and set!, which do this for all the usual collections 2021-01-27T19:14:22Z ecraven: I still like Dylan's collection APIs 2021-01-27T19:14:43Z dnm joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:14:49Z ecraven: duncanm: ^ :D 2021-01-27T19:14:50Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:15:31Z dto joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:15:31Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:15:39Z Zipheir: How many different collection do we actually use index operations on? 2021-01-27T19:15:53Z Zipheir: collections, even. 2021-01-27T19:16:01Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:16:39Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T19:17:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T19:18:54Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:19:04Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:19:50Z Zipheir: I suppose it's not really `index' as much as a procedure C α β -> α -> β. 2021-01-27T19:20:58Z ecraven: well, there's at least string-ref, vector-ref, bytevector-...-ref, and list-ref in r7rs-small 2021-01-27T19:21:13Z duncanm: yeah, i like Dylan too ;-) 2021-01-27T19:22:22Z ecraven: ah, I remembered correctly, auto-vivification in C++ for operator[] is just ... nuts 2021-01-27T19:26:56Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T19:28:13Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:31:15Z jcowan: I did a fair amount of research on where - procedure names were born. It is definitely earlier than R2RS; going through the mailing list at https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/projects/scheme/rrrs-archive.html shows that vector-ref is already in the earliest draft. At that time, MIT Scheme was already in version 7, so the evidence may be there. 2021-01-27T19:34:58Z ecraven: do you know if the monomorphism was a conscious decision? 2021-01-27T19:35:29Z ecraven: I think I now *also* understand that for the polymorphism to work properly you need a rather smart compiler, so maybe that was one of the reasons why monomorphism was always easier to define 2021-01-27T19:40:32Z dnm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T19:41:54Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-27T19:43:20Z dnm joined #scheme 2021-01-27T19:47:32Z gwatt: It certainly requires extensive runtime support. 2021-01-27T19:48:45Z ecraven: hm.. I can write predicate dispatch functions fine without much runtime support, they are just way too slow. I think to properly support this, you need to do in-module type reconstruction and data flow analysis, to at least mitigate the costs for pure in-module calls 2021-01-27T19:49:54Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T19:50:34Z gwatt: ecraven: Ah, I thought you were still talking about making collections or any arbitrary data callable 2021-01-27T19:51:03Z Zipheir: Dictionary-passing typeclass implementations also take a decent amount of runtime support. 2021-01-27T19:55:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T19:56:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:20:13Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:21:56Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:22:28Z ecraven: gwatt: I don't think that'd need so much runtime support, just one sort of object that has additional information associated with it (a lambda that is called instead of the object) 2021-01-27T20:23:19Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:29:05Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-27T20:32:55Z jcowan: Presumably you shouldn't do polymorphism in the inner loop anyhow. 2021-01-27T20:35:16Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T20:36:24Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-27T20:36:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:39:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:42:06Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:43:12Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-27T20:43:20Z faLUKE quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-01-27T20:43:48Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-27T20:44:32Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T20:46:17Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:48:16Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-27T20:52:09Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:52:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T20:54:27Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-27T21:06:24Z phwalkr quit 2021-01-27T21:09:15Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-27T21:12:12Z richbridger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T21:22:55Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:27:19Z mdhughes: Julia is really interesting here, because you can largely ignore the type system, but that's how they bind "methods" with polymorphic arguments. And it's *insanely* fast, once it's had a chance to JIT. 2021-01-27T21:28:38Z mdhughes: So most of your code looks dynamic, but you have to write `function foo(name::AbstractString)` and then `function foo(x::Int)`, and foo knows which you meant. 2021-01-27T21:31:04Z gwatt: mdhughes: Does the dispatch happen at runtime or compile time? 2021-01-27T21:31:36Z mdhughes: It's all JIT, so… 2021-01-27T21:31:57Z mdhughes: If I add a new function in the REPL, it's immediately available. 2021-01-27T21:31:59Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T21:33:14Z gwatt: If I have `foo(x)` somewhere in my code but haven't defined a `function foo(x::WhateverType)` does it explode at runtime or compiletime? 2021-01-27T21:33:52Z mdhughes: Lemme check. I expect at runtime when it hits that line? 2021-01-27T21:36:11Z mdhughes: https://paste.debian.net/1183027/ 2021-01-27T21:36:31Z mdhughes: Runtime: Hello, Mark4ERROR: LoadError: MethodError: no method matching foo(::Array{Any,1}) 2021-01-27T21:36:47Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-27T21:50:24Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:50:26Z romariorios[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:50:45Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:50:45Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:50:47Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:50:48Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:50:52Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:50:56Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:50:56Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:51:14Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T21:51:29Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-27T21:51:36Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T21:52:24Z _anb quit (Quit: quit) 2021-01-27T21:52:39Z lad quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-27T21:52:46Z _anb joined #scheme 2021-01-27T21:53:03Z lad joined #scheme 2021-01-27T22:11:02Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-27T22:29:52Z iv-so quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-27T22:30:13Z iv-so joined #scheme 2021-01-27T22:30:48Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-27T22:40:58Z tryte quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-27T22:44:09Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:01:39Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-27T23:04:12Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-01-27T23:10:24Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:15:20Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:21:26Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:22:25Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:23:19Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:23:49Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-27T23:23:50Z Irvise[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM) 2021-01-27T23:23:50Z deselby quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-27T23:23:51Z romariorios[m] quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-27T23:24:54Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T23:25:05Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:31:26Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-27T23:31:37Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-27T23:32:38Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:32:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:32:42Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-27T23:32:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:32:54Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:32:55Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-27T23:39:56Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:39:56Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:39:56Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:39:56Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:39:57Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:39:57Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:39:57Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:39:57Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:40:03Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:42:12Z raingloom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-27T23:54:11Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-27T23:56:06Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-27T23:56:08Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-28T00:05:16Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-28T00:05:28Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2021-01-28T00:08:48Z c7d9_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-28T00:16:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T00:17:23Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T00:17:23Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T00:17:23Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T00:28:23Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-28T00:29:00Z sm2n joined #scheme 2021-01-28T01:02:44Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-28T01:03:03Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-28T01:07:18Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-28T01:08:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T01:10:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T01:10:03Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T01:10:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T01:15:21Z iltutmus_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T01:16:01Z iltutmus quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-28T01:16:02Z ex_nihilo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T01:29:29Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T01:32:48Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T01:37:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T01:38:44Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T01:49:27Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T01:50:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T01:51:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T01:59:08Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:00:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:15:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:19:27Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:19:41Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T02:20:15Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:20:22Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-28T02:20:23Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:20:58Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-28T02:21:14Z duncanm_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:21:14Z rudybot: la la la 2021-01-28T02:21:41Z duncanm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:21:41Z englishm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z kwmiebach quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z remby_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z englishm joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z englishm quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z englishm joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z englishm quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z englishm joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z englishm quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z englishm joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:21:48Z duncanm_ is now known as duncanm 2021-01-28T02:22:07Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:22:32Z kwmiebach joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:22:40Z remby quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:22:41Z remby_ is now known as remby 2021-01-28T02:24:07Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T02:25:27Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:26:07Z [d] joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:30:02Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:30:15Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:44:48Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T02:48:45Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T02:49:26Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T02:59:08Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-28T03:07:46Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T03:08:49Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:09:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:09:03Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T03:09:03Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:20:44Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:21:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:21:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-28T03:21:38Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-28T03:22:06Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:23:56Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:23:56Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T03:25:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:25:50Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T03:26:04Z daviid joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:26:38Z aeth__ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:26:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-28T03:27:30Z aeth__ is now known as aeth 2021-01-28T03:30:02Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T03:30:16Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T03:31:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T03:31:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:32:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:45:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T03:51:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T03:54:32Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-28T03:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T03:58:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:01:07Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T04:02:04Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:02:44Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:07:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T04:08:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:08:33Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T04:08:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:20:12Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:20:27Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T04:21:43Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:21:43Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T04:21:43Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:29:40Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:35:38Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T04:36:44Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T04:36:55Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:36:55Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T04:36:55Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:39:28Z ggoes quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-28T04:44:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T04:44:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-28T04:45:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T04:46:09Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-28T05:01:48Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T05:03:05Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T05:03:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-28T05:09:11Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-28T05:20:34Z teardown quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-28T05:30:59Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T05:31:00Z klovett quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-28T05:31:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-28T05:32:15Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T05:36:02Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T05:36:20Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T05:36:27Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T05:41:08Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-01-28T05:41:15Z siraben: 2 5 1 2021-01-28T05:41:21Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-28T05:55:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T05:59:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T06:47:12Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-28T06:48:48Z __anb joined #scheme 2021-01-28T06:49:29Z _anb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T06:49:29Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T06:49:52Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T06:50:12Z nckx joined #scheme 2021-01-28T06:54:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T07:04:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T07:09:22Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-28T07:12:27Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-28T07:16:50Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T07:18:17Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T07:32:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T07:33:39Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-28T07:33:39Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-28T07:37:29Z jobol_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T07:37:43Z jobol_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T07:41:15Z grobe0ba quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-28T07:42:17Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T08:00:46Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-28T08:03:48Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-01-28T08:07:39Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T08:08:55Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T08:08:55Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T08:08:55Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T08:18:39Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T08:25:47Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-28T08:34:31Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-28T08:47:34Z evhan joined #scheme 2021-01-28T08:48:10Z copec quit (Quit: checkity check out.) 2021-01-28T08:48:30Z copec joined #scheme 2021-01-28T08:50:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T08:57:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-28T08:57:41Z evhan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-28T09:07:15Z remby quit (Quit: remby) 2021-01-28T09:09:38Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T09:10:13Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-28T09:12:26Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-28T09:15:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T09:59:44Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-28T10:09:38Z manumanumanu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T10:11:21Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-01-28T10:19:56Z grobe0ba joined #scheme 2021-01-28T10:49:47Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-01-28T10:54:04Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T10:54:41Z paulj joined #scheme 2021-01-28T10:56:27Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T11:01:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T11:13:19Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-28T11:14:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T11:40:20Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-28T11:54:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T12:08:17Z jobol: Hi all, is there a scheme equivalent of the yield in python? 2021-01-28T12:09:32Z wasamasa: you can write it with call/cc 2021-01-28T12:09:44Z wasamasa: have you looked at the generators SRFI? 2021-01-28T12:10:16Z jobol: I'll do, It also remind me a paragraph of r7rs 2021-01-28T12:16:37Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-01-28T12:16:40Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-28T12:17:31Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-28T12:17:40Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T12:18:01Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-28T12:30:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-28T12:40:08Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-01-28T12:43:17Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:19:59Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T13:21:16Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:21:16Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T13:21:16Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:30:12Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-01-28T13:30:29Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:35:39Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T13:38:11Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:45:45Z grobe0ba_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:45:55Z englishm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T13:45:55Z grobe0ba quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T13:46:05Z manumanumanu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T13:46:12Z englishm_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:46:12Z englishm_ quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T13:46:12Z englishm_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:46:14Z grobe0ba_ is now known as grobe0ba 2021-01-28T13:46:23Z manumanumanu joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:53:26Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T13:53:54Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:55:05Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:56:59Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-28T13:57:42Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T13:59:47Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-28T14:00:53Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T14:05:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-28T14:05:45Z faLUKE joined #scheme 2021-01-28T14:35:08Z tatsumaru joined #scheme 2021-01-28T14:35:11Z tatsumaru: hey guys 2021-01-28T14:35:22Z tatsumaru: what do you think about the notion that everyone should learn to code? 2021-01-28T14:36:46Z aeth: yes and no 2021-01-28T14:37:04Z aeth: Yes, everyone should learn to code so that they can script the software that they use in day to day life. 2021-01-28T14:37:18Z aeth: No, when people say "learn to code" that's not what they really mean, they just want to drive professional programmer wages down by creating an oversupply. 2021-01-28T14:38:57Z aeth: Every job should do a bit of scripting (a lot already do, via Excel). Not everyone should write software. 2021-01-28T14:41:22Z tatsumaru: in my country there is an overdemand for developers and they are so desperate that they are hiring all kinds of people who barely know how to boot their pc 2021-01-28T14:41:44Z jcowan: I happen to remember what I was (under)paid when in my first full-time programming job and what year that was, so in real terms my income has gone up by 369% since then. 2021-01-28T14:41:57Z jcowan: Not that much. 2021-01-28T14:43:01Z jcowan: That's over a 40-year period. 2021-01-28T14:43:06Z tatsumaru: my brother started at $1500/mo as a junior java developer, two years later he's at $4200 2021-01-28T14:43:49Z tatsumaru: actually that's not accurate because it's not really USD and it's not in the US. 2021-01-28T14:44:32Z tatsumaru: but both currencies are somewhat similar 2021-01-28T14:44:52Z tatsumaru: however my country is much poorer than USA so the purchasing power of that salary is much higher 2021-01-28T14:45:59Z tatsumaru: jcowan why did you get such a small increase in salaray over 40 years? 2021-01-28T14:46:40Z jcowan: Remember that that is in real terms, i.e. adjusted for inflation. 2021-01-28T14:48:32Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-28T14:50:20Z jcowan: Workers in the U.S. align their interests with billionaires, because they believe that they are also billionaires, just with a temporary cash-flow problem. 2021-01-28T14:51:47Z jcowan: So they won't unionize (which is not easy anyway) because they think: "When my startup hits it big, I won't want unionized workers then, will I?" 2021-01-28T14:52:52Z tatsumaru: it's usually the lower qualified developers that benefit most from unions 2021-01-28T14:52:58Z tatsumaru: lesser* 2021-01-28T14:53:22Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T14:54:08Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-28T14:54:49Z jcowan: Perhaps. But it's the sickest people who benefit most from national health insurance, and the oldest people who benefit most from national pensions. 2021-01-28T14:55:15Z jcowan: I am not so eaten up with envy that I will turn down something that benefits me just because it benefits others more. 2021-01-28T14:55:41Z jcowan: Of course, unions can become corrupt and oppressive, but at least they are not *designed* as instruments of oppression. 2021-01-28T14:57:27Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T15:00:15Z tatsumaru: while some % of the sickest people are simply people who've had incredibly bad luck, the majority of them are people who've made really really bad health choices for a very very long time. the diabetes and obesity rates in the US are ridiculous. having super qualified doctors at your disposal to fix your mess can't be a right and can't be cheap. 2021-01-28T15:00:43Z tatsumaru: as for old people pension money comes out of their own pockets/savings so I don't see how that's relevant. 2021-01-28T15:02:00Z tatsumaru: some people had it really rough and lost everything they had, but again most people really saved nothing their whole lives, bought a bunch of junk, took a bunch of loans and then they complain they don't have any money and want UBI 2021-01-28T15:02:25Z tatsumaru: IMO unions are mostly designed to extort capitalists 2021-01-28T15:03:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-28T15:08:27Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-28T15:23:25Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T15:25:48Z Anonymous_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-28T15:26:10Z Anonymous_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T15:27:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T15:27:33Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-28T15:28:09Z deeplearner joined #scheme 2021-01-28T15:28:18Z deeplearner: hi 2021-01-28T15:28:36Z tatsumaru left #scheme 2021-01-28T15:30:46Z deeplearner: hi 2021-01-28T15:32:05Z deeplearner: hi 2021-01-28T15:36:14Z deeplearner is now known as wasm 2021-01-28T15:37:48Z mangol: has anyone put forth a realistic argument that everyone should learn to code? wouldn't most people benefit more from improving their writing, speaking, networking, socializing - almost any common skill? 2021-01-28T15:37:51Z wasm quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-01-28T15:38:45Z mangol: too much math is already being taught to people who have no particular interest, aptitude, or use for it, and hence forget all about it when they leave school 2021-01-28T15:39:09Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T15:40:15Z mangol: if everyone should learn how something works, learning how people, companies, and societies work is something most people have a realistic level of interest and aptitude in, and it's immensely useful 2021-01-28T15:41:31Z aeth: mangol: Basic scripting is way, way, way more important than math in everyday life. I mean, people already do this, they just do this in some really terrible visual programming language called "Excel" because Microsoft pays a lot of money to schools to teach it. 2021-01-28T15:42:05Z aeth: The main use for basic math for most people is so that you have the intuition to trust the output of the calculator or the computer program instead of just blindly trusting it. 2021-01-28T15:42:47Z aeth: You do kind of need to know algebra to understand programming, though. Not quite. It's a bit different unless it's FP. 2021-01-28T15:43:04Z tdammers: the "math" that most people learn in school has little to do with actual mathematics - it's basic calculation skills, it takes a decade in the school system before you get anywhere near the real stuff, proofs and formal systems and all that 2021-01-28T15:43:39Z aeth: tdammers: The math that's taught all the way through, like, half of a math major (so more than anyone but math majors see) is basically just the arithmetic/math prerequisites for physics so physics classes don't have to focus on it 2021-01-28T15:44:46Z tdammers: my point being that "but we're making people learn math" is not a very compelling argument, because what we're really teaching most of them isn't math, but just basic arithmetic 2021-01-28T15:44:55Z tdammers: and that's fine. most people don't need math. 2021-01-28T15:45:07Z LeoNerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T15:45:34Z tdammers: even fairly skilled workers don't really need to learn math beyond what is needed to understand *applied* math 2021-01-28T15:45:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T15:45:50Z mangol: teaching everyone programming could be more fun than teaching them algebra, because programs deal with more data types than just numbers. but that raises the question of why teach either of those 2021-01-28T15:46:31Z tdammers: exactly. most people will never have to program anything; all they need is enough insight into how computers work to use them responsibly and effectively. 2021-01-28T15:46:49Z mangol: couldn't agree more 2021-01-28T15:46:49Z tdammers: granted, learning some programming may be one of the better ways of teaching that 2021-01-28T15:46:53Z mangol: if people hate something because have no use for it, they're not going to understand it anyway 2021-01-28T15:47:17Z tdammers: and yeah, you cannot educate someone against their will 2021-01-28T15:49:28Z mangol: aeth: your scripting argument is fair, but i'd still estimate you're biased in favor of technical fields over sociall oriented fields 2021-01-28T15:50:04Z mangol: scripting takes the same kind of logical thinking and attention to detail that half the population finds difficult and doesn't like to do 2021-01-28T15:52:01Z LeoNerd joined #scheme 2021-01-28T15:52:08Z mangol: i agree that any math beyond calculating with percentages and understanding the difference between roders of magnitude is probably extraneous 2021-01-28T15:52:09Z aeth: mangol: anyone who uses a computer can benefit from some light scripting if we had a scripting-oriented culture. 2021-01-28T15:52:12Z aeth: which is a ton of jobs. 2021-01-28T15:52:29Z aeth: Right now, generally, the only scripting-like thing most office jobs will do is Excel, which is increasingly worse than something like Python every year 2021-01-28T15:54:31Z mangol: hmm. i'm thinking of the people i know who are good at social stuff but not technical stuff, and how much time they could shave off their workday by scripting 2021-01-28T15:55:16Z tdammers: that's an orthogonal problem though - decades of pampering users with non-composable GUIs and telling them that computers are not deterministic in any way and cannot be understood at all by anyone but some highly skilled experts 2021-01-28T15:55:25Z mangol: i can't think of many things they could successfully script to save a substantial amount of time, and can think of many things where they'd be likely to make mistakes that would cost time 2021-01-28T15:55:58Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T15:56:18Z mangol: by far the biggest practical timesaver is knowing the right person to call to solve any given problem. 2021-01-28T15:56:26Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-28T15:59:17Z mangol: tdammers: i think the fundamental problem (which i don't think is much of a problem) is that most people don't like understanding deterministic processes, are not good at it, and don't have much use for it 2021-01-28T15:59:39Z tdammers: maybe 2021-01-28T16:00:46Z mangol: everyone lives mostly by intuition, and most people live almost exclusively by intuition. in a complex world with not much time to make each decision, intuition generally trumps logic. 2021-01-28T16:02:26Z tdammers: right. the sad part is just that so many intuitions people have about computers are horribly wrong, sometimes with devastating consequences, but it's just too profitable to keep it that way 2021-01-28T16:02:33Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-28T16:03:02Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T16:03:02Z tdammers: like, for example, the intuition that what you see on your computer screen is a faithful representation of what the computer is doing 2021-01-28T16:03:58Z ecraven: that used to work fine for the blinkenlight computers :P 2021-01-28T16:04:06Z mangol: you're absolutely right, but that speaks more to the lackluster state of software development practices to me :) 2021-01-28T16:04:09Z ecraven: you could *see* what it was doing via all the leds 2021-01-28T16:04:17Z lithp joined #scheme 2021-01-28T16:04:21Z lithp: hi 2021-01-28T16:05:09Z tdammers: haha yeah 2021-01-28T16:05:40Z tdammers: you could also literally step the CPU through the program, one machine word at a time, and use an array of physical switches to manipulate registers on the fly 2021-01-28T16:06:34Z ggoes joined #scheme 2021-01-28T16:07:50Z ecraven: yea, I've built a pidp11, but haven't played around with it much yet 2021-01-28T16:08:33Z webshinra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T16:09:07Z lithp: hi 2021-01-28T16:10:27Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-01-28T16:18:53Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T16:21:51Z remby joined #scheme 2021-01-28T16:27:39Z mangol: upon reflection, the main product of a successful education is the ability to tell bullshit from not-bullshit. everything else is either a skill or can be found by consulting a reference. 2021-01-28T16:28:43Z mangol: that also shows why there's a glass ceiling on improving education. if the population as a whole is too savvy, the existing power balance in society is toppled. 2021-01-28T16:29:08Z tdammers: I'm even more cynical about it - I'd say the main purpose of an education is to develop and certify bullshit tolerance 2021-01-28T16:29:45Z tdammers: the education system as we know it is still largely based on 19th-century ideas 2021-01-28T16:30:10Z remby left #scheme 2021-01-28T16:30:27Z mangol: you're talking about the consumer product known as "education"; i'm talking about education as an ideal concept :) 2021-01-28T16:30:28Z mdhughes: I think teaching Scheme to everyone would go very poorly. 2021-01-28T16:30:50Z mdhughes: To everyone who needs math & programming for their jobs, maybe less poorly. 2021-01-28T16:31:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-28T16:31:38Z mdhughes: But CS undergraduates are going to gravitate to "what's the least effort I can do to pass and get a job at Google", which is why Java and Python are in CS courses. 2021-01-28T16:32:11Z tdammers: yeah, and that's exactly the kind of skill you need to become a useful member of the workforce 2021-01-28T16:32:46Z tdammers: finding the path of maximum conformity, tolerating copious amounts of arbitrary bullshit, doing a so-so job without asking any uncomfortable questions 2021-01-28T16:33:49Z tdammers: and if all you do is drink the kool-aid, then that's most likely where you'll end up - a boring job where you are expected to tolerate copious amounts of arbitrary bullshit and not ask uncomfortable questions 2021-01-28T16:37:00Z jcowan: tatsumaru (when and if you return): As a diabetic who was dangerously obese before surgery, I resemble that remark. But the people who benefit from the lack of national health insurance in the U.S. are the insurers, who contribute nothing and suck away a huge amount of the national income in profits and waste more of it in paperwork, as their business plan is basically to charge as high as possible for their non-product 2021-01-28T16:37:00Z jcowan: and return as little as possible to the insured. 2021-01-28T16:37:41Z dto quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-28T16:38:01Z dto joined #scheme 2021-01-28T16:38:32Z jcowan: And the U.S.'s national pension program, Social Security, does *not* come out of the pockets of recipients: that's simply not how it is funded. 2021-01-28T16:39:36Z jcowan: Indeed, all these examples show that labor is not the enemy of capital; rather both have a common enemy, namely the rentier interest. 2021-01-28T16:40:56Z civodul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T16:41:17Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:01:27Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:04:03Z aeth__ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:04:11Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-28T17:04:18Z aeth__ is now known as aeth 2021-01-28T17:07:02Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T17:07:09Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:07:50Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T17:08:27Z malaclyps quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T17:09:00Z malaclyps joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:10:11Z epony joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:18:50Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T17:19:16Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-28T17:20:09Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-28T17:21:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:26:49Z epony joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:28:14Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T17:31:14Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:34:28Z paulj` joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:36:27Z paulj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-28T17:42:19Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T17:43:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:48:00Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:49:50Z paulj` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T17:51:04Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-28T17:51:29Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T17:52:46Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T17:55:22Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-28T18:01:12Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-28T18:01:39Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T18:01:46Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-28T18:02:35Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T18:02:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T18:06:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T18:17:16Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-28T18:19:05Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-28T18:19:19Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-28T18:20:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T18:23:08Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-28T18:25:06Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-28T18:27:35Z Zipheir: Very generally speaking, is iterative, accumulating closure creation more expensive than constructing a structure recursively? 2021-01-28T18:27:56Z Zipheir: I'm guessing the answer is "yes". 2021-01-28T18:28:16Z Zipheir: Or "yes, but not noticeably". 2021-01-28T18:42:20Z jcowan: I would say creating closures tends to be expensive. SRFI 42 is noticeably slow because there is are promises for every pair. SRFI 127 is much more efficient unless the write barrier is extremely high. 2021-01-28T18:43:00Z jcowan: obvs it's possible to write a Scheme with very fast closure creation and forcing and very high write barriers. 2021-01-28T18:45:01Z Zipheir: Interesting. I'm not familiar with the term "write barrier", but I think I know what you mean. 2021-01-28T18:47:36Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-28T19:04:10Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-28T19:21:39Z brainfunnel joined #scheme 2021-01-28T19:26:46Z lithp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T19:30:00Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-28T19:35:29Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T19:36:46Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T19:36:46Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T19:36:46Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T19:40:47Z ft joined #scheme 2021-01-28T19:58:22Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T19:58:39Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T19:59:56Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T19:59:57Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T19:59:57Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T20:04:41Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T20:15:58Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-28T20:24:36Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-28T20:27:04Z elflng quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-01-28T20:29:39Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-28T21:03:36Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-28T21:46:34Z gwatt: Is closure allocation really more expensive than other object creations? 2021-01-28T21:54:19Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-28T21:55:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T21:58:32Z Zipheir: It must depend on how closures are represented. 2021-01-28T22:00:40Z Zipheir: Flat closures must be more expensive than linked (cf. Appel's book). I have no idea which strategy which Schemes use. 2021-01-28T22:01:00Z Zipheir: s/expensive/space-&/ 2021-01-28T22:10:29Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-28T22:11:46Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T22:11:46Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-28T22:11:46Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T22:21:10Z evhan joined #scheme 2021-01-28T22:24:50Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-28T22:28:15Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-28T22:31:30Z jcowan: I shouldn't think so, because a flat closure can confine itself to those values (or boxes) which are actually referenced from the closed procedure, rather than those which merely might be. 2021-01-28T22:32:48Z Zipheir: Hmm, true. 2021-01-28T22:34:19Z jcowan: Rabbit, alone among Scheme compilers AFAIK, does not use boxes for mutable variables, but actually goes to the trouble of propagating mutations to all the closure slots that exist. 2021-01-28T22:50:34Z torbo joined #scheme 2021-01-28T23:02:40Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-28T23:05:14Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-28T23:08:39Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-28T23:09:56Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-28T23:32:57Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-28T23:36:13Z theruran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-28T23:36:14Z CORPORAL_groovy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-28T23:36:34Z d_run quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-28T23:37:04Z d_run joined #scheme 2021-01-28T23:37:04Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-28T23:37:11Z CORPORAL_groovy joined #scheme 2021-01-28T23:37:28Z bchar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-28T23:37:44Z rann_ joined #scheme 2021-01-28T23:37:50Z rann quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-28T23:37:57Z rann_ is now known as rann 2021-01-28T23:40:23Z bchar joined #scheme 2021-01-28T23:45:56Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-28T23:50:49Z ngz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T00:00:11Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:00:32Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:04:01Z c7d9_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:06:56Z c7d9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:09:19Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-29T00:10:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:10:37Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T00:10:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:18:36Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:18:42Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:19:51Z davl_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:19:55Z copec joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:20:05Z davl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:20:12Z davl_ is now known as davl 2021-01-29T00:20:17Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:20:25Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:20:47Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:21:15Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:21:18Z amoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:21:58Z amoe joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:22:15Z ft joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:23:49Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:26:01Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:29:21Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:30:02Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:30:28Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:39:57Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T00:46:52Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T00:46:53Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-29T00:47:10Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:47:30Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:47:45Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-29T00:52:56Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:11:09Z englishm_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T01:11:10Z deselby quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T01:11:10Z bsima quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T01:12:51Z englishm_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:12:51Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:12:51Z bsima joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:13:37Z lithp joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:14:21Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:14:27Z romariorios[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:14:48Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:14:50Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:15:01Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:15:22Z siraben quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:15:24Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:15:31Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:15:37Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:17:30Z dnm joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:18:57Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:19:11Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:25:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:35:28Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:37:07Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:38:45Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:39:39Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:40:31Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:42:02Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:42:04Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:44:06Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:45:01Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:46:19Z Zipheir quit (Quit: Eadem mutata resurgo.) 2021-01-29T01:46:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T01:48:00Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:48:36Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:54:46Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:58:19Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T01:58:44Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:02:58Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:03:24Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:03:25Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:03:42Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:03:56Z romariorios[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:03:57Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:04:05Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:04:26Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:04:49Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:06:43Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-29T02:07:43Z brainfunnel quit (Quit: thanks, bye!) 2021-01-29T02:08:15Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:09:10Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:09:26Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:14:30Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T02:18:58Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:20:02Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-29T02:20:05Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-29T02:27:31Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:31:20Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:31:58Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:33:09Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:33:20Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:36:39Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T02:37:53Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:40:29Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:42:20Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:43:50Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T02:47:37Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:50:20Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T02:51:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:51:36Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T02:51:36Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:55:42Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T02:58:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-29T03:00:18Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:02:34Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:05:26Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T03:06:33Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:07:31Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:13:00Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T03:14:18Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:14:18Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T03:14:18Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:15:32Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T03:19:49Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T03:25:15Z lithp quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T03:27:03Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-29T03:30:59Z edgar-xyz joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:31:40Z bitwize_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:31:42Z Formbi- joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:32:06Z aquijoule_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:32:16Z alelos- joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:33:47Z snits_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:34:15Z kbtr_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:34:20Z fadein_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:34:33Z _________ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:35:04Z Ekho- joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:35:22Z massimo_zaniboni joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:38:50Z elliott_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:50Z richbridger quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z snits quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z edgar-rft quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z mzan quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z bitwize quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z Formbi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z joast quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z Ekho quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z alelos quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z fadein quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z aukkras quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z kbtr quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z DeeEff_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z rudybot quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:38:51Z nevermind quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T03:40:05Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T03:40:22Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T03:41:55Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T03:42:54Z sz0 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:43:29Z DeeEff_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:45:11Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T03:46:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:47:58Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:49:23Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:51:38Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T03:55:45Z Ekho- is now known as Ekho 2021-01-29T03:57:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T04:01:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T04:22:01Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-29T04:27:06Z nevermind joined #scheme 2021-01-29T04:51:22Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-29T04:52:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T04:55:56Z dieggsy: ooh, do any of you set scheme as your scratch buffer language 2021-01-29T04:55:56Z dieggsy: in emacs 2021-01-29T05:03:33Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T05:04:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:09:13Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T05:10:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:18:59Z foof: I'm pretty sure everyone does in edwin. I can't imagine them setting the language to elisp. 2021-01-29T05:19:22Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:20:53Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T05:22:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:26:03Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T05:27:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:27:20Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T05:27:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:37:35Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:52:43Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T05:54:00Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:54:00Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T05:54:00Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:56:55Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-01-29T05:58:53Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-29T05:59:35Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T06:01:18Z c7d9_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T06:12:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T06:37:05Z ccl-logbot joined #scheme 2021-01-29T06:37:05Z 2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: ccl-logbot smazga c7d9 aeth ArneBab raingloom gravicappa nevermind pankajsg elliott_ Gnuxie[m] null_radix[m] DeeEff_ sz0 massimo_zaniboni Ekho _________ fadein_ kbtr_ snits_ alelos- aquijoule_ Formbi- bitwize_ edgar-xyz Ericson2314 Irvise[m] romariorios[m] klovett_ deselby dieggsy even4void[m] mbakke siraben Zipheir dnm bsima englishm_ ft amoe copec davl bchar rann CORPORAL_groovy theruran d_run evhan elflng Garbanzo hugh_marera Retropikzel epony 2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: malaclyps dto webshinra ggoes imode LeoNerd Anonymous_ faLUKE manumanumanu grobe0ba hendursaga teardown terpri nckx __anb daviid notzmv [d] kwmiebach duncanm X-Scale iltutmus_ matryoshka sm2n tryte iv-so lad madage samth Boarders xelxebar physpi sdu kilimanjaro cemerick jcowan gf3 ec Balooga conjunctive stephe mats Duns_Scrotus rickbutton lockywolf cky heredoc Lysandros Vultyre cpape` evdubs danielkoning zgrep yosafbridge sxmx emacsomancer DGASAU 2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: mdhughes hyiltiz cantstanya woky f8l cross sudden ineiros terrorjack dpk Blukunfando kjak belmarca95 siiky pounce tessier dsp gnomon averell astronavt khisanth_ casaca Riastradh lloda`` jealousmonk topoi rubic88 stux16777216Away aoh `micro srji hugo3 hive-mind Yardanico wasamasa ohama brettgilio titanbiscuit jackhill codingquark m1dnight1 fiddlerwoaroof fgudin_ Oxyd choas gabot Zenton mangol ByronJohnson dan64 DerGuteMoritz Blkt elly ozzloy nmeum dozzie 2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: mario-goulart r0kc4t wigust taw10 balkamos bandali drot midre iv4nshm4k0v pranavats greaser|q xlei L35M153r4bl35 stux|work ravndal GoGi _apg mjsir911 emma turbofail rotty clog pinoaffe erkin hugo lavaflow lortabac weinholt bashbjorn lpsmith krjst gwatt tdammers jxy ecraven dTal nisstyre drakonis ski eagleflo fizzie add^_ pflanze friscosa1 foof eMBee z0d Kooda SirDayBat 2021-01-29T06:38:28Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-29T06:39:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T06:43:38Z _________ is now known as aukkras 2021-01-29T06:43:43Z aukkras quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2021-01-29T06:44:06Z aukkras joined #scheme 2021-01-29T06:44:49Z aukkras is now known as _________ 2021-01-29T06:54:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T06:58:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T06:59:57Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:01:23Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T07:02:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:08:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:12:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T07:13:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:18:16Z stux|work quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T07:19:04Z stux|work joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:19:07Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T07:21:25Z stux|work quit (Excess Flood) 2021-01-29T07:23:44Z stux|work joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:28:38Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:28:45Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-29T07:28:48Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-29T07:31:03Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T07:31:37Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:32:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:32:20Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T07:32:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:33:08Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T07:34:03Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:35:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T07:47:13Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T07:48:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T07:48:30Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T07:48:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T08:02:49Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-01-29T08:02:55Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-29T08:14:26Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T08:14:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T08:18:14Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2021-01-29T08:19:39Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-29T08:19:39Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-01-29T08:20:00Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T08:32:46Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T08:53:24Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T08:56:43Z Major_Biscuit joined #scheme 2021-01-29T09:06:22Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T09:08:44Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T09:11:07Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-29T09:15:24Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T09:17:40Z brainfunnel joined #scheme 2021-01-29T09:18:33Z __anb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T09:19:57Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T09:30:00Z _anb joined #scheme 2021-01-29T09:47:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T09:49:42Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-29T10:00:08Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-29T10:04:12Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-29T10:09:30Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-29T10:11:39Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-29T10:13:36Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T10:13:44Z faLUKE left #scheme 2021-01-29T10:16:24Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T10:29:41Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-29T10:31:36Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-29T10:43:09Z brainfunnel quit (Quit: thanks, bye!) 2021-01-29T10:47:12Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T10:47:27Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-29T10:48:53Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T10:49:52Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-29T10:52:37Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T10:56:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T11:20:04Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T11:42:57Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-29T11:52:41Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-29T11:53:57Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-29T11:55:00Z jobol joined #scheme 2021-01-29T11:57:45Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T11:57:53Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:00:14Z jobol_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:01:40Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T12:02:34Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:02:38Z jobol_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-29T12:04:50Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T12:11:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:11:49Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:15:16Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-29T12:16:24Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T12:19:00Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:23:54Z perceptron joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:24:46Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T12:28:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:29:36Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-01-29T12:36:18Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2021-01-29T12:40:22Z perceptron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T12:40:40Z perceptron joined #scheme 2021-01-29T12:45:04Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T12:53:44Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T12:54:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:00:28Z siraben quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:00:30Z Lysandros quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:00:31Z heredoc quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:00:31Z cky quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:00:36Z dieggsy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:00:36Z deselby quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:00:36Z mbakke quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:00:38Z webshinra quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:00:39Z imode quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:00:39Z ec quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:01:13Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:14Z Lysandros joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:14Z heredoc joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:14Z cky joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:20Z siraben quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-29T13:01:25Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:25Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:25Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:25Z webshinra joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:25Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:25Z ec joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:01:32Z dieggsy quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-29T13:01:32Z deselby quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-01-29T13:02:20Z perceptron joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:02:52Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-29T13:02:59Z null_radix[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:03:04Z Zipheir quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:03:06Z iv-so quit (*.net *.split) 2021-01-29T13:03:11Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:03:53Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:03:53Z Zipheir joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:03:53Z iv-so joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:04:05Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:04:26Z mbakke quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:04:31Z null_radix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:04:48Z Irvise[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:05:24Z ec quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:06:38Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:06:44Z ec joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:07:32Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:07:56Z Ericson2314 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:07:56Z romariorios[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:10:44Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:18:59Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:23:23Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:25:16Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:29:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T13:29:26Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:29:30Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:52:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T13:54:55Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T13:57:26Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T14:05:44Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:06:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T14:06:31Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:07:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T14:07:27Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:07:32Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:08:23Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:09:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T14:09:46Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-29T14:11:12Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T14:11:22Z deselby joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:11:34Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:13:13Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T14:13:34Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:14:10Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T14:14:32Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:15:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T14:15:34Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:16:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T14:16:32Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:18:22Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T14:18:25Z mbakke joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:18:26Z Gnuxie[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:18:26Z siraben joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:18:26Z Ericson2314 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:18:26Z null_radix[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:18:26Z dieggsy joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:18:26Z even4void[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:18:26Z Irvise[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:18:33Z romariorios[m] joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:20:52Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:33:34Z aquijoule_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-29T14:41:36Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-01-29T14:41:57Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:56:07Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:56:53Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T14:58:29Z averell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T15:01:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T15:03:09Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T15:03:30Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-29T15:09:15Z joast joined #scheme 2021-01-29T15:23:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T15:32:48Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-29T15:35:23Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T15:39:18Z averell joined #scheme 2021-01-29T15:46:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T15:47:22Z brainfunnel joined #scheme 2021-01-29T15:47:49Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-29T15:51:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T15:54:26Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-29T16:00:26Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T16:00:50Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-29T16:04:14Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-29T16:06:01Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T16:07:28Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T16:07:31Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T16:11:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T16:11:44Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-29T16:16:13Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T16:17:46Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-29T16:19:23Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T16:19:39Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-29T16:20:23Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-29T16:20:55Z ngz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T16:21:26Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-29T16:22:33Z gioyik quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-29T16:22:59Z perceptron joined #scheme 2021-01-29T16:30:29Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T16:51:56Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T17:04:01Z perceptron joined #scheme 2021-01-29T17:08:55Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T17:09:33Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-29T17:19:53Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T17:21:06Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T17:32:12Z Zipheir: Apparently neither test SRFI provides a built-in way to test multiple values. You'd almost think Scheme didn't have them, or something. 2021-01-29T17:35:39Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T17:36:14Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-29T17:42:33Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-29T17:44:41Z mdhughes: (let-values ... (test-equal ... 2021-01-29T17:45:40Z mdhughes: channel user list was very confusing to me, why is it suddenly showing mdhughes [d] then a divider bar… it's someone named ______ 2021-01-29T17:45:42Z acarrico joined #scheme 2021-01-29T17:49:31Z romariorios[m]: Has anyone here managed to compile Guile on Termux? 2021-01-29T17:49:40Z Zipheir: chibi provides test-values, which would be a nice addition to SRFI 64. 2021-01-29T17:49:43Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-29T17:49:43Z romariorios[m]: I had a bunch of weird problems when trying yesterday 2021-01-29T17:50:12Z romariorios[m] posted a file: guile-errors (51KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/pesso.al/EDJzNxvvZFmLLrlzubAhViKf > 2021-01-29T17:51:41Z Zipheir: romariorios[m]: You're going to have to install it to a user prefix, since filesystem permissions on Termux are extremely limited. 2021-01-29T17:52:39Z romariorios[m]: Yeah, I'm aware. But my problems happen much earlier than that 2021-01-29T17:52:41Z romariorios[m]: I wasn't able to ./configure it properly 2021-01-29T17:52:41Z Zipheir: e.g. --prefix="$HOME" or some such. (I'm assuming Guile uses autotools.) 2021-01-29T17:53:04Z romariorios[m]: Also a bunch of problems when trying to extract the tarball 2021-01-29T17:53:37Z romariorios[m]: Apparently, I can't create links on Termux?? 2021-01-29T17:53:46Z romariorios[m]: It does 2021-01-29T17:53:53Z Zipheir: Nope, apparently not. 2021-01-29T17:54:56Z Zipheir: romariorios[m]: This appears to be related https://github.com/termux/termux-packages/issues/1054 2021-01-29T17:55:31Z Zipheir: I've never heard of `proot' before. 2021-01-29T18:01:31Z mangol: foof: how can one run Edwin? what operating systems does it support? 2021-01-29T18:01:38Z mangol: Zipheir: are you interested in working on Scheme testing frameworks? 2021-01-29T18:03:28Z mdhughes: In case it's been missed, I wrote scheme-test-unit, because SRFI-64 doesn't have a useful runner: https://mdhughes.tech/2020/02/27/scheme-test-unit/ 2021-01-29T18:05:05Z Zipheir: mangol: No, not really. I'm far more interested in proving programs than in testing them. But I'm happy to help if you've got a project in mind. 2021-01-29T18:08:58Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T18:11:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T18:13:03Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-29T18:14:21Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T18:14:39Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-29T18:17:56Z phillbush quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T18:21:20Z perceptron joined #scheme 2021-01-29T18:24:56Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-29T18:28:34Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-29T18:30:13Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T18:31:29Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T18:31:29Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T18:31:29Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T18:44:32Z dieggsy: mangol: https://stackoverflow.com/a/36233030 2021-01-29T18:50:20Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T18:50:35Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-29T18:54:51Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T18:56:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T18:57:46Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-29T19:11:42Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T19:16:13Z mangol: dieggsy: thanks! works like a charm. i don't get a X11 GUI for Edwin under XQuartz, but maybe it's not installed. i installed mit-scheme from homebrew 2021-01-29T19:16:56Z dieggsy: mangol: i don't think my x11 edwin was working either, i'm on linux 2021-01-29T19:18:08Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-01-29T19:19:06Z mangol: Zipheir: the testing project i have in mind is to split Scheme unit testing into three parts: 2021-01-29T19:20:05Z mangol: 1) syntax for writing test definitions; 2) test-case and test-suite objects supporting reflection; 3) interface for plugging test runners into 2 2021-01-29T19:20:23Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T19:20:27Z mangol: currently, in all existing Scheme test frameworks I've come across, all of those three are rolled into one library 2021-01-29T19:20:56Z mangol: yet the concerns that go into writing good test definitions are orthogonal to those that go into writing good test runners 2021-01-29T19:21:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:22:39Z mangol: dieggsy: homebrew mit-scheme is configured --without-x, so that explains my situation. maybe your distro package has it too? 2021-01-29T19:23:38Z dieggsy: mangol: doesn't seem that way https://github.com/archlinux/svntogit-community/blob/packages/mit-scheme/trunk/PKGBUILD 2021-01-29T19:23:42Z dieggsy: i'll have to do some more poking around 2021-01-29T19:25:49Z jcowan: My issue with current suggestions for testing is with having a massive union interface that covers SRFI 64, SRFI 78, and the Chicken/Chibi test egg. I think that's a mistake. We should have the SRFI define a fairly spare interface close to Chicken/Chibi, with an implementation that exports (srfi 64), (srfi 78), and (srfi new). 2021-01-29T19:25:58Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-29T19:26:16Z jcowan: This would cover only the test-definition interface, I think. 2021-01-29T19:26:17Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:26:17Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T19:26:17Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:27:33Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:32:16Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T19:35:43Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T19:36:56Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:37:54Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:39:35Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-29T19:41:13Z matryoshka joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:42:33Z mangol: ah, Arch Linux. "that's how we roll." 2021-01-29T19:42:51Z Zipheir: Keep those bugs rolling! 2021-01-29T19:42:57Z mangol: fun fact, AUR has more Scheme implementations than any other package manager: https://misc.lassi.io/2020/repology-data.html 2021-01-29T19:43:26Z Zipheir: Test frameworks are also a "standards are great, there are so many to choose from!" kind of problem. 2021-01-29T19:43:34Z mangol: you'll never guess what distro is second (prashing intentionally misleading) 2021-01-29T19:43:43Z mangol: hey, i like rolling release 2021-01-29T19:44:28Z mangol: another little known fact, gentoo has a scheme mailing list 2021-01-29T19:44:48Z Zipheir: Useful list. The AUR does really well, indeed. 2021-01-29T19:45:30Z mangol: it kinda cheats a bit by being the user-submitted package repo listed. but very impressive 2021-01-29T19:45:39Z mangol: *the only user-submitted package repo 2021-01-29T19:46:27Z Zipheir: I wonder why Gambit is so rarely packaged. 2021-01-29T19:47:10Z mangol: not that rarely. it's the 5th most packaged scheme 2021-01-29T19:47:30Z mangol: the red ones in the table are simply package names that deviate from the "standard" package name. the package is still present 2021-01-29T19:47:30Z Zipheir: OK, I'm misreading that table, then. 2021-01-29T19:47:40Z Zipheir: Ah, that makes sense. 2021-01-29T19:48:10Z mangol: https://repology.org/ is a fantastic service, made it really easy to generate that table 2021-01-29T19:48:14Z perceptron joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:48:36Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T19:49:12Z mangol: there are a lot of funny surprises in that table 2021-01-29T19:50:24Z mangol: jcowan: sounds like we want more or less the same thing testing-wise 2021-01-29T19:51:13Z mangol: the test definition macros provided by the SRFI 64 aka Chicken/Chibi 'test' library are the de facto standard ones 2021-01-29T19:51:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:51:37Z mangol: SRFI 78 is sui generis and requires the eager comprehensions SRFI 2021-01-29T19:52:09Z Zipheir: I've mostly used a subset of SRFI 78, since it's easily implemented as a syntax-rules macro. 2021-01-29T19:52:51Z mangol: does your subset include the comprehensions, i.e. the `check-ec` macro? 2021-01-29T19:53:22Z Zipheir: Nope, because that would require some basic implementation of SRFI 42. 2021-01-29T19:55:41Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T19:56:52Z Zipheir: For the most part, the more complicated the test framework it is, the more support you need from the Scheme implementation. It's nice to have something that runs on anything. 2021-01-29T19:57:05Z mangol: i agree completely 2021-01-29T19:59:12Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T20:00:34Z mangol: SRFI 78 is cramping my style re: test unification plans but i feel lame complaining about it because people do use it 2021-01-29T20:01:13Z mangol: check-ec is non-trivial to implement and its surface syntax looks kinda like the controversial Common Lisp `loop` macro 2021-01-29T20:02:56Z mangol: by contrast, SRFI 64 is very straightforward and uncontroversial. the main controversial feature is test-begin/test-end, which some would like to drop in favor of `test-group` only 2021-01-29T20:04:07Z mangol: but SRFI 64 doesn't have an obvious way to do iteration AFAICT. that's the edge that 78 has 2021-01-29T20:05:05Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T20:06:16Z Zipheir: It's somewhat unfortunate that the author chose to provide iteration only through integration with ver comprehensions SRFI. 2021-01-29T20:08:56Z mangol: agreed. calling it lightweight is misleading 2021-01-29T20:10:05Z mangol: anyway, i don't want to whine about the libraries made by people who've worked harder on the problem than i have 2021-01-29T20:11:08Z mangol: could we start from SRFI 64 ~= Chicken/Chibi test, and add some kind of iteration facility to it with less controversial and easier-to-implement syntax? 2021-01-29T20:13:48Z mangol: if we write a new SRFI that only the test definition part from SRFI 64, with modest additions/changes, iteration could be one of those modest additions 2021-01-29T20:14:21Z mangol: we should probably drop test-begin/test-end, which are controversial, and keep only test-group, which does the same thing in an uncontroversial way 2021-01-29T20:25:45Z Zipheir: Sounds good to me. 2021-01-29T20:25:54Z Zipheir: What would the iteration construct look like? 2021-01-29T20:28:36Z civodul quit (Quit: b) 2021-01-29T20:28:59Z mangol: i haven't thought about that at all. any ideas? 2021-01-29T20:29:31Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-29T20:31:19Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-29T20:34:23Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T20:36:01Z Zipheir: The simplest method is to just run a test on every element of a list and expect all the results to be #t. 2021-01-29T20:36:34Z Zipheir: (Or some other fixed expected result.) 2021-01-29T20:37:12Z Zipheir: But it would be more useful, of course, to allow each expected result to depend on the tested element. 2021-01-29T20:37:54Z gwatt: What testing frameworks do the various scheme implementations use to test themselves? Those suites are probably the most battle-tested 2021-01-29T20:38:49Z wasamasa: there's a test egg 2021-01-29T20:39:21Z Zipheir: A simple way would be a form (test-for-each ), where is a unary procedure which is applied to each element of the test list and returns two values: the result, and the expected value. It's not very SRFI 64, but it's trivial to implement. 2021-01-29T20:39:51Z Zipheir: (And the values are compared with .) 2021-01-29T20:40:52Z Zipheir: e.g. (test-for-each (iota 20) (lambda (n) (values n (+ (/ n 2) (/ n 2)))) =) 2021-01-29T20:41:27Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-29T20:43:19Z mangol: gwatt: implementation-native test frameworks can be quite different. SRFI 64 and C/C test seem to be by far the closest thing to a standard syntax 2021-01-29T20:43:27Z Zipheir: This has the advantage of requiring no loop-macro-style low-level macro hacks to expose the name of the test element. 2021-01-29T20:43:47Z mangol: robustness of the test suites is probably unrelated to the surface syntax used to define tests, or is it? 2021-01-29T20:43:58Z mangol: Zipheir: good thinking! 2021-01-29T20:45:06Z mangol: why are "test suite" and "test case" different things? isn't a test suite conceptually equivalent to a test-case to which we've added sub-test-cases? 2021-01-29T20:45:38Z mangol: if they're the same thing, an iteration construct could be a test-case generator 2021-01-29T20:45:54Z mangol: you can manually write out test cases, or you can have an iterator make some for you 2021-01-29T20:46:20Z mangol: and those in turn can have sub-test-cases, to any depth you like 2021-01-29T20:46:43Z Zipheir: From that perspective, you might as well just have a macro which translates an iterative test form into a bunch of test-cases. 2021-01-29T20:46:52Z mangol: exactly 2021-01-29T20:47:15Z mangol: it's simplest if the universe of all tests loaded into a scheme implementation is one test case 2021-01-29T20:47:31Z mangol: like the unix file system with one root directory. and you can mount stuff into it 2021-01-29T20:48:11Z mangol: and a fuzz tester can be plugged in as just another test-case generator 2021-01-29T20:48:16Z mangol: at any point in the tree 2021-01-29T20:48:49Z mangol: you can conditionally add or some tests or not add them, for a more or less comprehensive test run 2021-01-29T20:48:58Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-29T20:49:38Z gioyik quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-29T20:49:51Z mangol: conceptually, the root test case can be produced by a pure function that calls other pure functions. those functions can change their behavior based on conditionals 2021-01-29T20:50:22Z mangol: similar to declarative configuration in guix and the like 2021-01-29T20:50:24Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T20:52:14Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-29T20:53:01Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-29T20:53:03Z mangol: instead of test-group we should have test-append, test-map, test-append-map 2021-01-29T20:53:28Z mangol: it shouldn't be test-group's business to group tests 2021-01-29T20:53:43Z mangol: it should merely take an existing test case and tag it with a name tag 2021-01-29T20:53:59Z mangol: that test case can contain sub-test-cases or not - none of test-group's business 2021-01-29T20:54:15Z mangol: name-tagging and append/map are orthogonal concerns 2021-01-29T20:56:35Z mangol: for a test that runs like 10000 times with a different input, we should probably use SRFI 158 generators 2021-01-29T20:56:54Z mangol: each call to the generator returns a test-case, eof-object when no more test cases 2021-01-29T20:57:52Z mangol: if each test-case returned by the generator is name-tagged, the test runner can display a friendly and specific name for failed test cases nested arbitrarily deep 2021-01-29T20:59:50Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-29T21:00:23Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T21:01:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T21:02:49Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-29T21:04:21Z gioyik quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-29T21:13:41Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T21:14:25Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-29T21:17:24Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-29T21:17:36Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-29T21:20:41Z Steeve joined #scheme 2021-01-29T21:23:40Z phillbush quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T21:24:06Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-29T21:24:36Z Steeve quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-29T21:32:01Z jcowan: foof-test is a distillation of SRFI 64: it removes the weaknesses and restrictions etc. 2021-01-29T21:35:18Z mangol: jcowan: where can we find foof-test? 2021-01-29T21:37:01Z mangol: mdhughes: i downloaded the code from your blog post. is it just the runner, relying on thunderchez's SRFI 64 implementation for the test definitions? 2021-01-29T21:38:09Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-29T21:38:55Z jcowan: Chicken (test) or Chibi (chibi test). I just gave it that name because it doesn't currently have a name. 2021-01-29T21:39:22Z jcowan: IIRC the Chibi version is a tad more recent. 2021-01-29T21:42:49Z mangol: foof = ashinn? 2021-01-29T21:46:46Z Zipheir: Weirdly I know expect foof-* projects to be by Riastradh... 2021-01-29T21:51:03Z mangol: foof Bourbaki 2021-01-29T21:53:59Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-29T21:54:08Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-01-29T21:54:39Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-29T21:54:43Z jcowan: mangol: yes. Zipheir: foof-loop is so named because it's a variant of chibi loop. 2021-01-29T22:01:41Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T22:05:33Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T22:06:51Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T22:07:59Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T22:08:24Z notzmv joined #scheme 2021-01-29T22:09:30Z Zipheir: Interesting. I thought the name was just an hommage. 2021-01-29T22:11:27Z mangol: we should start a Scheme Bourbaki sometime though for lulz 2021-01-29T22:12:26Z mangol: also Hollywood tradition for a somewhat opposite purpose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Smithee 2021-01-29T22:13:24Z mangol: "The director was also required by guild rules not to discuss the circumstances leading to the movie or even to acknowledge being the project's director." 2021-01-29T22:13:48Z mangol: so those movies were pretty bad then 2021-01-29T22:16:23Z mangol: the MacGyver TV series pilot episode is credited to Alan Smithee. it can't have been that bad 2021-01-29T22:22:44Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-29T22:24:23Z gioyik quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-29T22:27:14Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T22:28:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T22:35:54Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T22:37:09Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T22:37:09Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T22:37:09Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T22:40:52Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-29T22:56:02Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-29T23:12:52Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-29T23:13:13Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T23:24:55Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-29T23:28:43Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-29T23:30:31Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-29T23:32:24Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T23:38:51Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-29T23:42:36Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T23:43:27Z dieggsy: i feel like srfi-159 has inconsistent naming - generator-fold but gmap rather than generator-map 2021-01-29T23:43:33Z dieggsy: er, srfi-158 i mean 2021-01-29T23:43:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T23:43:52Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T23:43:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T23:44:19Z dieggsy: it feels un-schemey 2021-01-29T23:49:36Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-29T23:54:18Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-29T23:56:24Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-29T23:58:02Z amirouche1: the best name is prolly generator-map->list 2021-01-29T23:58:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-29T23:58:23Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-29T23:59:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-29T23:59:31Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-29T23:59:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T00:06:23Z dieggsy: amirouche1: ? but gmap doesn't make a list, it just produces a generator. so generator-map would be apt 2021-01-30T00:07:56Z amirouche1: I am not sure what is the purpose of generator-map->list 2021-01-30T00:08:45Z amirouche1: dieggsy: generator-map->list is an existing generator procedure from srfi-158 2021-01-30T00:09:03Z dieggsy: Oh, oh. 2021-01-30T00:09:29Z dieggsy: maybe it's somehow more efficient that (generator->list (generator-map ...)) 2021-01-30T00:11:05Z Zipheir: map/fold fusion, no doubt. 2021-01-30T00:12:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T00:13:41Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T00:13:41Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T00:13:41Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T00:17:42Z amirouche1: yeah but even if it is an optim, then the name should be gmap->list. 2021-01-30T00:18:07Z amirouche1: (I regularly use g-map->list) 2021-01-30T00:19:19Z dieggsy: amirouche1: i'd argue both should use the naming generator-map 2021-01-30T00:19:46Z dieggsy: 'gmap' is much more ambiguous, and generator- conforms more to the scheme standard of object-procedure naming 2021-01-30T00:20:12Z dieggsy: or, convention i guess 2021-01-30T00:20:51Z amirouche1: type-verb 2021-01-30T00:20:56Z amirouche1: dieggsy: I agree 2021-01-30T00:21:16Z dieggsy: ah, type-verb makes more sense and is easier to type heh 2021-01-30T00:21:30Z dieggsy: ...can srfis be changed after final status? i propose an amendment! lol 2021-01-30T00:22:09Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-30T00:23:06Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T00:24:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T00:29:29Z amirouche1: dieggsy: :D 2021-01-30T00:37:51Z c7d9_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T00:41:24Z c7d9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T00:47:24Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T00:48:37Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-30T00:48:50Z brainfunnel quit (Quit: thanks, bye!) 2021-01-30T00:54:09Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T01:04:28Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T01:04:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T01:10:19Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T01:13:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T01:16:12Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-30T01:17:44Z gagbo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-30T01:18:09Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-30T01:19:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T01:23:33Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T01:30:45Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T01:34:49Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T01:48:00Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T01:50:35Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-30T01:53:32Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T02:07:26Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-30T02:07:38Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-30T02:12:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T02:14:42Z jcowan: Generator functions beginning wigh 'g' take a generator and return another generator. 2021-01-30T02:15:25Z jcowan: those that create generators end with "-generator" and those that use a genrator to create a collection object begin with "generator-" 2021-01-30T02:15:58Z jcowan: dieggsy, amirouche: ^^ 2021-01-30T02:17:48Z dieggsy: ah. huh. interesting 2021-01-30T02:19:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T02:34:30Z jgart joined #scheme 2021-01-30T02:39:16Z jgart: Hi, how does one implement map? How do people think about it? 2021-01-30T02:47:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T02:47:59Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T02:48:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T02:52:12Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T02:53:23Z aeth: track the final cdr and update it with the new final cdr via set-cdr! 2021-01-30T02:53:33Z aeth: or build it in reverse and then reverse it at the end 2021-01-30T02:55:22Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T02:57:34Z jcowan: aeth: the latter is more efficient on modern hardware with modern GC. 2021-01-30T02:58:23Z jgart: jcowan: the latter also doesn't use mutation, right? 2021-01-30T02:58:30Z jgart: I'll try both 2021-01-30T02:58:47Z jgart: aeth jcowan thanks for the suggestions 2021-01-30T02:58:54Z aeth: you're welcome 2021-01-30T02:59:09Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T03:03:39Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T03:03:42Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-30T03:04:03Z jcowan: Right, which is what makes it more efficient. 2021-01-30T03:16:32Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T03:16:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T03:16:42Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T03:16:42Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T03:23:29Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T03:25:59Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-01-30T03:28:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T03:28:25Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T03:30:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T03:33:06Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T03:52:33Z Zipheir: Recursive map works just fine. "Don't stand on your head to iterate!" (Olin) 2021-01-30T03:54:05Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T03:55:02Z Zipheir: Since jgart is most likely *not* trying to write the most space-efficient `map' implementation on earth, explaining the fundamental implementation first may be a little more helpful. 2021-01-30T03:55:42Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T03:56:37Z Zipheir: jgart: As a list recursion, you need a base case (for ()) and a recursive step (for (x . rest)). From there, it's reasonably straightforward. 2021-01-30T04:00:28Z Benjamin_S joined #scheme 2021-01-30T04:00:29Z jgart: thanks jcowan 2021-01-30T04:00:45Z jgart: Zipheir the base case is when the list is empty? 2021-01-30T04:01:32Z Zipheir: Yes. Because every list (hem, hem) is either the empty list or a cons pair. 2021-01-30T04:01:41Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T04:01:48Z Zipheir: jgart: So what's (map f '()) ? 2021-01-30T04:02:52Z jgart: that returns the empty list? 2021-01-30T04:03:23Z jgart: it's not important what procedure f is defined as in this context 2021-01-30T04:03:25Z Zipheir: Right. So that's your first equation. (map f '()) => () 2021-01-30T04:03:41Z Zipheir: Then what's (map f (cons x rest)) ? 2021-01-30T04:04:04Z Benjamin_S quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-30T04:05:18Z jgart: (map f '(x rest)) 2021-01-30T04:05:27Z jgart: x prepended onto the rest of the list? 2021-01-30T04:05:59Z Zipheir: It's a list whose car is x and whose cdr is `rest'. 2021-01-30T04:06:26Z jgart: ohh ok, that makes sense 2021-01-30T04:06:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T04:06:47Z Zipheir: What does (map f (cons x rest)) equal? (Aside from (map f (cons x rest)).) 2021-01-30T04:07:04Z Zipheir: This is the recursive step 2021-01-30T04:07:50Z Zipheir: (It may help to think of a simple example, like (map - '(1)).) 2021-01-30T04:08:16Z Benjamin_S joined #scheme 2021-01-30T04:09:11Z jgart: rest can be re-written as (cdr l) 2021-01-30T04:09:17Z jgart: where l is the list 2021-01-30T04:09:42Z Zipheir: Yes, sure. 2021-01-30T04:10:01Z Zipheir: (car l) and (cdr l) are what you have to work with to define this case of map. 2021-01-30T04:11:13Z Zipheir: Semi-obviously, you're going to be building a new list. 2021-01-30T04:11:24Z jgart: (map - '(1)) returns -1 2021-01-30T04:11:28Z jgart: why so? 2021-01-30T04:11:50Z Zipheir: It should be (-1). 2021-01-30T04:12:04Z jgart: does not - need two arguments to function? 2021-01-30T04:12:09Z Zipheir: Nope. 2021-01-30T04:12:24Z Zipheir: Huh, rudybot's not in the channel. 2021-01-30T04:12:35Z Zipheir: (- 1) => -1 2021-01-30T04:13:28Z jgart: and (map - '(1)) conses the - symbol into the list containing the 1? 2021-01-30T04:13:45Z Zipheir: No, symbols have nothing to do with it. 2021-01-30T04:13:46Z jgart: or am I misunderstanding that 2021-01-30T04:13:50Z jgart: ok 2021-01-30T04:13:52Z Zipheir: It's not a macro. 2021-01-30T04:14:45Z Zipheir: If - is confusing, think of mapping `square', e.g. (map square '(2)) = (4) 2021-01-30T04:15:35Z jgart: that makes more sense to me 2021-01-30T04:15:45Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T04:16:05Z jgart: because square takes one argument 2021-01-30T04:16:12Z jgart: and returns the squared value 2021-01-30T04:16:29Z jgart: which is 4 in that example 2021-01-30T04:16:39Z jgart: as you demonstrated 2021-01-30T04:17:08Z jgart: thanks for helping me btw 2021-01-30T04:17:25Z jgart: I found this implementation of map: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/ftp/garbage/cs345/schintro-v13/schintro_106.html#SEC120 2021-01-30T04:17:43Z Zipheir: jgart: Did you figure out the second case of map? 2021-01-30T04:17:45Z jgart: I glanced at it briefly 2021-01-30T04:18:39Z jgart: why does it check with (pair? lis) for the second case? 2021-01-30T04:18:46Z jgart: just to make sure it is a list? 2021-01-30T04:19:36Z Zipheir: Yes. Because Scheme doesn't have a list type. 2021-01-30T04:20:24Z Zipheir: If you only expect proper lists to be passed, you can just write (if (null? l) NULL-CASE PAIR-CASE) 2021-01-30T04:21:07Z jgart: what is not a proper list? 2021-01-30T04:21:26Z Zipheir: Like (cons 1 #t) 2021-01-30T04:21:33Z jgart: sorry if this is starting to sound like the little schemer (irc version) 2021-01-30T04:21:49Z Zipheir: Yes, the Little Schemer is all about questions like this. 2021-01-30T04:22:58Z Zipheir: Someone might call your map function on anything, so a "production" version will probably try to reject non-list arguments. 2021-01-30T04:25:10Z Melchizedek6809 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T04:25:18Z Benjamin_S quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-30T04:25:22Z jgart: (cons 1 #t) returns a pair 2021-01-30T04:25:25Z jgart: a pair is not a proper list? 2021-01-30T04:25:26Z jgart quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-01-30T04:25:55Z jgart joined #scheme 2021-01-30T04:26:49Z Zipheir: No. Here's the classic definition: A list is either the empty list, (), or a pair whose car is anything and whose cdr is a list. 2021-01-30T04:27:06Z Melchizedek6809 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-30T04:27:11Z Zipheir: (So a proper list's cdr must be (), or a proper list.) 2021-01-30T04:28:01Z jgart: An empty list or an embedded pair that ends with the empty list? 2021-01-30T04:28:40Z Zipheir: Yes, but it's clearer to think of it recursively. 2021-01-30T04:28:41Z Melchizedek6809 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T04:28:57Z jgart: (1 '()) or (1 '(1 '())) 2021-01-30T04:28:59Z Zipheir: A list is proper if its empty or if its cdr is proper. 2021-01-30T04:29:09Z Zipheir: s/its/it's/ 2021-01-30T04:29:24Z jgart: got it! 2021-01-30T04:29:31Z jgart: thanks that clarified that 2021-01-30T04:29:36Z Zipheir: Great! 2021-01-30T04:29:51Z Zipheir: It would be written (1 . (1 . ())), btw. 2021-01-30T04:30:02Z Zipheir: AKA (cons 1 (cons 1 '())) 2021-01-30T04:30:29Z jgart: ohh ok 2021-01-30T04:31:25Z jgart:  (1 . (1 . ())) is equivalent to (cons 1 (cons 1 '())) 2021-01-30T04:32:13Z Zipheir: Yes, but you'll need to quote it: '(1 . (1 . ())) 2021-01-30T04:32:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T04:32:34Z jgart: ohh ok, yes I got an error at the repl 2021-01-30T04:32:44Z jgart: fixed now 2021-01-30T04:33:04Z jgart: and I saw it returned (1 1) 2021-01-30T04:33:28Z Zipheir: That's just another way of writing the same list. 2021-01-30T04:35:35Z jgart: this implementation of map builds a recursive stack? https://www.cs.utexas.edu/ftp/garbage/cs345/schintro-v13/schintro_106.html#SEC120 2021-01-30T04:35:45Z jgart: i.e. it is not iterative 2021-01-30T04:37:12Z jgart: is there another way to implement map? 2021-01-30T04:37:31Z Zipheir: Yes, it's recursive, and that's fine. 2021-01-30T04:37:40Z Zipheir: You can do it iteratively, as aeth suggests. 2021-01-30T04:41:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T04:42:07Z jgart: would that be using this method? "...build it in reverse and then reverse it at the end" 2021-01-30T04:42:33Z Zipheir: Yup, most likely. 2021-01-30T04:43:07Z jgart: "track the final cdr and update it with the new final cdr via set-cdr!" is also an iterative approach? 2021-01-30T04:45:17Z Zipheir: I'm not entirely sure what aeth has in mind there, but, probably. 2021-01-30T04:47:21Z jgart: Zipheir what is your way of thinking about the implementation of map? If you were to explain how to implement it to a beginner 2021-01-30T04:47:41Z aeth: Well, in classic-style Scheme, you'd probably have a secondary procedure for recursion that has several variables. At the very least: The lambda to call, the input list, the built list, and the final pair. There is a special case is at the start, where the final pair is the same thing as the built list. 2021-01-30T04:47:48Z jgart: a bird's eye view of what it is doing to achieve the map 2021-01-30T04:48:06Z aeth: Otherwise, you would constantly update the final pair, and the set-cdr! the old final pair to hold the new final pair 2021-01-30T04:48:32Z Zipheir: jgart: "Apply a function to every element of a list and return a list of the results." 2021-01-30T04:49:39Z aeth: And the car of the final pair is easy, that's just (list (f (car l))) 2021-01-30T04:50:19Z Zipheir: jgart: You can also think of map as "lifting" a function on As to a function on a list of As. 2021-01-30T04:51:39Z jgart: Zipheir: I understand that that is what map does e.g. (map 1+ '(1 2 3)) 2021-01-30T04:51:39Z jgart: -> (2 3 4) 2021-01-30T04:52:18Z jgart: what is "As"? 2021-01-30T04:52:43Z Zipheir: "An A" being a value of type A (for all types A). 2021-01-30T04:53:04Z jgart: Ohh ok 2021-01-30T04:54:16Z jgart: So all the types have to be of the same type 2021-01-30T04:54:29Z jgart: I understand that 2021-01-30T04:55:01Z jgart: unless we were using some sort of type coercion oo scheme system 2021-01-30T04:55:32Z Zipheir: I was simplifying. Scheme lists can contain any collection of objects. 2021-01-30T04:56:20Z Zipheir: Languages with list types usually require every element to be of the same type, like a list of characters, a list of booleans, etc. 2021-01-30T05:00:11Z jgart: In scheme, the vector has to be of only one type? 2021-01-30T05:00:39Z jgart: ohh no 2021-01-30T05:00:48Z jgart: I answered it 2021-01-30T05:00:50Z Zipheir: No, vectors can also contain any objects. 2021-01-30T05:00:53Z jgart: it can be of any types 2021-01-30T05:00:55Z Zipheir: Cool. 2021-01-30T05:01:26Z jgart: why is the vector more efficient for lookup than the list? 2021-01-30T05:01:46Z jgart: or why is the vector more efficient than the list? 2021-01-30T05:03:09Z Zipheir: Vectors are usually implemented as a "contiguous" block of memory, like C arrays. 2021-01-30T05:06:28Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:12:45Z jgart: Zipheir: are lists usually implemented as singly linked lists, using c structs? 2021-01-30T05:13:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:17:26Z Zipheir: Well, lists are implemented (in Scheme) as pairs. 2021-01-30T05:19:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T05:26:06Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T05:27:23Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:27:23Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T05:27:23Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:31:17Z mdhughes: mangol: Yes, that's all SRFI-64 was missing, it's functionally useful just not practical. 2021-01-30T05:38:25Z mdhughes: For large data group tests, I just accumulate equal/not-equal results, and do a single (test-equal) after the loop. 2021-01-30T05:41:11Z mdhughes: YAGNI is the absolute most important principle of testing. Don't make your test cases graceful or even efficient. Just get the job done, it's plumbing that only you will ever see. 2021-01-30T05:45:14Z gioyik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T05:45:40Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:46:40Z markthegoat joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:47:13Z markthegoat: are the bots written in scheme 2021-01-30T05:47:16Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T05:48:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:48:34Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T05:48:34Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:49:18Z markthegoat: nice 2021-01-30T05:49:27Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T05:50:05Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:54:40Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T05:58:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T06:03:14Z markthegoat quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-30T06:07:58Z jcowan: I look at other people's tests constantly to figure out where a bug is. 2021-01-30T06:09:09Z mdhughes: That should just be indicated by failing, you hopefully aren't reading it as documentation. 2021-01-30T06:12:43Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-30T06:16:11Z Zipheir: Why trust tests you can't understand? 2021-01-30T06:17:26Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T06:18:43Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T06:20:45Z jcowan: About a third of the time the bug is in the test. 2021-01-30T06:21:44Z mdhughes: I'm not saying make them IOCCC entries, but you don't need fancy frameworks, don't spend "real engineering time" on it. It's there to prove your real engineering worked. 2021-01-30T06:22:05Z mdhughes: If you have any bugs in tests, you've made your tests too complex. 2021-01-30T06:22:17Z mdhughes: Write more, simpler tests. 2021-01-30T06:23:45Z mdhughes: My background on this is, I learned JUnit testing from Kent Beck back at HP, been doing that for 20+ years. I've gone back and forth across fancy frameworks. Simpler is always better. 2021-01-30T06:24:11Z Guest70 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T06:24:16Z Guest70 is now known as markthegoat 2021-01-30T06:25:42Z jcowan: They aren't my tests. 2021-01-30T06:29:05Z Zipheir: And, of course, "Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." (EWD) 2021-01-30T06:29:54Z mdhughes: Sort of untrue. If you test all edge values and branches, you will prove the absence of bugs. 2021-01-30T06:30:05Z Zipheir: They're an inadequate way to *prove* that any design "worked", strictly speaking. 2021-01-30T06:30:12Z mdhughes: "prove" in the sense of engineering, not the fantasy of mathematical proofs. 2021-01-30T06:30:29Z Zipheir: Ah, I won't venture into that debate. 2021-01-30T06:31:22Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T06:31:39Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T06:32:02Z mdhughes: The problem is most people make functions too complex to test adequately, and then they're surprised when untested edge cases break something. 2021-01-30T06:32:47Z Zipheir: Although it's a of an bit odd perspective, since we, when programming, are writing proofs (programs) of theorems (types, of whatever flavor). 2021-01-30T06:33:04Z Zipheir: That I certainly agree with. 2021-01-30T06:34:34Z mdhughes: Programs aren't proofs, they're a series of gears in a machine. 2021-01-30T06:35:58Z Zipheir: I'm not pretending that it isn't possible to practice programming as an engineering discipline. I'm not nearly as hardcore as Dijkstra. 2021-01-30T06:36:19Z Zipheir: But it's equally unfortunate to ignore computation as a mathematical discipline. 2021-01-30T06:36:55Z mdhughes: I like EWD, but half the time he was shitposting, and the other half dealing with very small problems for CS classes. 2021-01-30T06:36:58Z Zipheir: "When a professor insists computer science is X but not Y, have compassion for his graduate students." (Perlis) 2021-01-30T06:37:13Z elliott_ quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-01-30T06:37:14Z markthegoat: who is EWD 2021-01-30T06:37:29Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T06:37:37Z mdhughes: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ 2021-01-30T06:38:18Z markthegoat: oh 2021-01-30T06:38:22Z markthegoat: i feel like an idiot 2021-01-30T06:39:02Z Zipheir: markthegoat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra He's probably best known for "GOTO considered harmful" and Dijkstra's Algorithm, but he's an all-around brilliant computer scientist. 2021-01-30T06:39:09Z markthegoat: the only thing i knew about EWD was djikstra's algorithim 2021-01-30T06:39:12Z markthegoat: that was it 2021-01-30T06:39:25Z markthegoat: oh i didn't know he was behind the GOTO considered harmful thing! 2021-01-30T06:40:02Z mdhughes: His EWD papers and his book https://archive.org/details/disciplineofprog0000dijk/mode/2up are often interesting. 2021-01-30T06:40:03Z Zipheir: His view of computation "as a mathematical activity" is brilliant, pure, and extremely inflexible. 2021-01-30T06:40:30Z mdhughes: I just don't always/often agree with him on larger problems than a function with one input and output. 2021-01-30T06:42:12Z Zipheir: He was, apparently, perfectly happy to work with a pencil and paper, and didn't give a damn if people called his approach impractical. 2021-01-30T06:55:59Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T06:58:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T06:58:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-30T07:00:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T07:08:18Z Anonymous_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T07:18:24Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T07:25:04Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T07:26:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T07:26:20Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T07:26:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T07:36:45Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T07:38:47Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T07:38:48Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-30T07:38:56Z siraben: mdhughes: heh, but with the right lanugage, programs = proofs! 2021-01-30T07:41:14Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T07:42:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T07:42:28Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T07:42:28Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T07:46:59Z jgart: thanks Zipheir for all the explanations today. I will try to work these map implementations out. Maybe later I can write proofs for them in agda... 2021-01-30T07:52:23Z mdhughes: No language can solve the problem that computers aren't math, but physical machines, which fail because of power, circuitry, cosmic rays, people dropping water in them, other processes running on the machine, low disk storage or other devices. 2021-01-30T07:53:31Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T07:54:17Z mdhughes: The way you can find out what a program does is to fire signals thru its input lines, and see if they come out where you expect. If they do, yay, you can maybe solve a problem or make a little demon animation dance. 2021-01-30T08:01:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T08:02:27Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T08:05:26Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-30T08:08:48Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T08:09:05Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T08:10:36Z jgart quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-30T08:14:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T08:15:23Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T08:21:49Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T08:22:11Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T08:22:25Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T08:22:44Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T08:24:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T08:25:32Z markthegoat quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-30T08:26:18Z jbayardo1 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T08:26:26Z jbayardo1 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-30T08:31:48Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T08:35:03Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T08:38:45Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T08:43:17Z tryte quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-30T08:43:34Z tryte joined #scheme 2021-01-30T09:04:34Z amirouche1 into operational transformations. 2021-01-30T09:04:39Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2021-01-30T09:08:19Z hendursa1 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T09:10:14Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T09:10:25Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-30T09:11:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T09:12:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T09:12:40Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T09:12:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T09:15:11Z DerGuteMoritz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T09:31:03Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T09:32:34Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T09:33:51Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T09:33:52Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T09:33:52Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T09:34:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T09:45:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T09:51:03Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T09:56:07Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T09:59:02Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-30T10:08:08Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T10:39:45Z brainfunnel joined #scheme 2021-01-30T10:44:04Z amirouche: As part of collaborative text editing application, let's consider that there are user A, user B, and the server S, the first thought that came to my mind is that all user A changes must be replicated in the server and at user B. And reciprocaly, user B changes must be propagated to the server and at user A. 2021-01-30T10:46:05Z amirouche: Replicating distributed edits is complex. 2021-01-30T10:46:35Z amirouche: edits can overlap like delete 3 chars at position 0, and delete 5 chars at position 0. 2021-01-30T10:47:21Z Melchizedek6309 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T10:47:41Z amirouche: even if the changes are serialized, they must be transformed to take into account the latest view of the server that necesarly has at least as much knowledge as the user doing the edit. 2021-01-30T10:48:16Z amirouche: possibly the server knows about edits done by the other user, that the user doing the edit is know aware of. 2021-01-30T10:48:37Z amirouche: so the edit sent by user b, must transformed and applied on top user A edits. 2021-01-30T10:48:48Z amirouche: (that user B does know about) 2021-01-30T10:49:42Z amirouche: It is unclear what is the result of applying in some order all edits. 2021-01-30T10:49:47Z Melchizedek6809 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T10:50:25Z Melchizedek6809 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T10:50:33Z amirouche: Still, one guarantee that must be preserved is that eventually after 1 seconds without edits, user a, user b, and the server must have the same document. 2021-01-30T10:51:00Z amirouche: It is more important that what edits are applied and how. 2021-01-30T10:52:50Z Melchizedek6309 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-30T10:52:59Z amirouche: Another problem: let's say user a delete 5 chars at position 0, send that edit to the server, the server apply the change and propage the edit to user b, but user b has local change that are unknown by the server. So user b need to apply the edit upon its own edits. 2021-01-30T10:54:26Z Melchizedek6309 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T10:54:48Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T10:55:08Z Melchizedek6809 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-30T10:55:25Z amirouche: and recompute the carret position 2021-01-30T10:59:21Z mdhughes: One basic (or even BASIC) trick for that is to operate on lines, and the line IDs are not a simple index but a unique ID. So now you can specify that A has edited lines 1500, 1505, 1510, and inserted line 1502; this doesn't affect B unless they're editing the same lines. 2021-01-30T10:59:47Z amirouche: Yes, i rely on that. 2021-01-30T11:00:23Z amirouche: given that, one quick workaround is to lock the line until the user stop editing and loose focus on the line. 2021-01-30T11:00:52Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T11:00:58Z amirouche: that does not require OT, except for adding and removing lines which much less complex (IIUC) 2021-01-30T11:01:32Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T11:01:42Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-30T11:28:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T11:33:33Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T11:47:24Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T11:48:38Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T11:52:02Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T11:55:04Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T11:56:18Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T11:57:00Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T11:58:27Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-30T12:04:11Z massimo_zaniboni is now known as mzan 2021-01-30T12:11:27Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T12:15:44Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T12:17:01Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T12:17:02Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T12:17:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T12:23:21Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-30T12:25:54Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T12:26:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T12:27:10Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T12:27:22Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-30T13:18:06Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-30T13:19:36Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-30T13:35:56Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-30T13:44:08Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T13:46:14Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T13:47:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T13:49:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T13:49:27Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T13:56:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T13:58:53Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:03:45Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T14:04:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:05:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T14:05:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:07:42Z Guest70 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:10:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T14:10:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:12:10Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T14:12:30Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:13:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T14:13:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:15:10Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T14:15:31Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:16:01Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-30T14:16:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T14:16:28Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:16:58Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:17:44Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T14:18:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:22:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T14:25:45Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T14:27:04Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:28:27Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-30T14:39:34Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-30T14:39:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:44:18Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T14:44:25Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:49:00Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-30T14:52:36Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T14:55:34Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-30T15:00:45Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-30T15:02:01Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T15:03:22Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-30T15:04:28Z Guest70 left #scheme 2021-01-30T15:07:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T15:09:16Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-30T15:29:27Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T15:33:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T15:34:28Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-30T15:40:46Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-30T15:46:08Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T15:46:38Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T15:51:02Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T16:06:05Z klovett quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T16:06:43Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-30T16:10:39Z _apg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T16:11:14Z stephe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T16:12:08Z stephe joined #scheme 2021-01-30T16:13:44Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T16:17:31Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-30T16:20:13Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T16:36:52Z Retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T16:42:57Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-30T16:43:02Z mmmattyx joined #scheme 2021-01-30T16:48:34Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-30T16:50:52Z Melchizedek6309 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-30T16:59:25Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-30T17:01:30Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:02:26Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:08:04Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T17:12:02Z amirouche joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:18:28Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-01-30T17:23:01Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:24:40Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:28:39Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:28:54Z Melchizedek6809 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:29:05Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T17:33:02Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T17:34:09Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:37:14Z Anonymous_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:38:04Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T17:39:20Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-30T17:39:21Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:39:22Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T17:39:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:41:17Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:51:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:53:47Z Retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-01-30T17:56:24Z aeth_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T17:56:29Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T17:57:03Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-30T17:57:43Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-01-30T18:09:56Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:13:05Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:14:33Z hyiltiz quit (Quit: hyiltiz) 2021-01-30T18:16:15Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-30T18:21:04Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:21:45Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T18:22:25Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:23:17Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:25:56Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T18:29:02Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T18:32:20Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:32:56Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:36:35Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T18:36:53Z Riastradh: Zipheir: foof-loop predated Chibi; I named it that because it was my implementation of foof's loop macro posted to c.l.s back 15 years ago or so, and I probably wanted to distinguish it from, e.g., cl-loop. 2021-01-30T18:37:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T18:37:45Z Zipheir: Aha, that's along the lines of what I thought. 2021-01-30T18:37:50Z Zipheir: Hi, all. 2021-01-30T18:38:05Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T18:39:32Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:42:09Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:42:56Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T18:43:20Z Riastradh: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.scheme/c/DLkZdLw1qGw/m/mCOB6sXKDQYJ 2021-01-30T18:43:57Z Zipheir: "What does do do? Do be do." 2021-01-30T18:45:09Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:49:47Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T18:51:03Z hyiltiz joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:53:18Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-30T18:53:49Z jcowan: Socrates said: to do is to be. Aristotle said: to be is to do. Sinatra said: doo bee doo bee doo. 2021-01-30T18:54:20Z Zipheir: siraben: We've got programs as proofs in Scheme. They're just rather vacuous proofs like "given evidence for Dynamic we can deduce evidence for Dynamic." 2021-01-30T18:54:43Z Zipheir: jcowan: That's in one of Kurt Vonnegut's books, IIRC? 2021-01-30T18:55:18Z jcowan: Probably. 2021-01-30T18:55:24Z Zipheir: It also provided a title for McBride's paper https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.09259 2021-01-30T18:55:52Z jcowan: My memory is still pretty much intact, at least for things I read long enough ago, but [citation missing]. 2021-01-30T18:55:58Z Zipheir: Oops, Lindley, McBride, and McLaughlin. 2021-01-30T18:58:35Z jcowan: Added to my reading list, thanks! 2021-01-30T19:00:26Z Retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-01-30T19:02:37Z xelxebar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T19:03:10Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:03:53Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:04:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:04:16Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:09:11Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T19:09:42Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-30T19:11:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:11:23Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:28:14Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T19:28:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:39:49Z civodul quit (Quit: Rebooting!) 2021-01-30T19:44:35Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:47:36Z rickbutton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T19:47:46Z rickbutton joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:48:31Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-30T19:50:23Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-30T19:52:18Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:55:31Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-30T19:59:25Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T20:03:02Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-30T20:06:07Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-30T20:07:55Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-30T20:08:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T20:17:54Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T20:19:11Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T20:19:12Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T20:19:12Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T20:19:38Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-30T20:23:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T20:34:34Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T20:35:50Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T20:46:40Z raingloom joined #scheme 2021-01-30T20:55:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T21:01:24Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T21:01:32Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T21:19:05Z mirrorbird quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-30T21:19:56Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T21:24:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T21:28:54Z ArneBab_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T21:30:08Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T21:33:13Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T21:37:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T22:01:59Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T22:02:21Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-30T22:02:41Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T22:02:49Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T22:11:34Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T22:12:22Z skapate joined #scheme 2021-01-30T22:12:51Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T22:13:09Z skapate left #scheme 2021-01-30T22:13:20Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T22:43:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T22:52:15Z marusich joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:04:27Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:09:13Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-30T23:16:05Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-30T23:19:09Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:21:14Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T23:22:31Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:31:54Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T23:33:08Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:34:46Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:38:15Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T23:38:20Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:41:06Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T23:41:35Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-30T23:42:14Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-30T23:44:14Z ArneBab_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T23:45:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:45:30Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T23:45:30Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:49:24Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-30T23:49:24Z elliott_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-30T23:50:34Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:50:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:50:40Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-30T23:50:40Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-30T23:57:25Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T00:00:04Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T00:01:21Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T00:01:22Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-31T00:01:22Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T00:05:19Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T00:08:49Z elliott_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T00:16:35Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-31T00:22:44Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T00:23:51Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-31T00:24:01Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T00:24:02Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-31T00:24:02Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T00:36:36Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T00:39:45Z c7d9_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T00:40:33Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T00:51:13Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-31T00:56:24Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T00:57:38Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T00:59:05Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T01:00:23Z richbridger joined #scheme 2021-01-31T01:01:58Z elliott_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T01:03:31Z teardown quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T01:03:54Z teardown joined #scheme 2021-01-31T01:05:49Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T01:10:55Z euandreh joined #scheme 2021-01-31T01:15:59Z pranavats joined #scheme 2021-01-31T01:23:49Z xelxebar_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T01:24:45Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-31T01:35:04Z snits_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T01:37:36Z snits joined #scheme 2021-01-31T01:53:23Z theruran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-31T01:54:51Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-31T02:11:38Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-31T02:17:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T02:18:48Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-31T02:21:53Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-31T02:22:11Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T02:24:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-31T02:26:11Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2021-01-31T02:51:46Z brainfunnel quit (Quit: thanks, bye!) 2021-01-31T03:07:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T03:07:58Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T03:12:35Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T03:13:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T03:13:26Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-31T03:14:50Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T03:16:17Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-31T03:18:56Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T03:21:04Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-31T03:22:20Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T03:29:35Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T03:33:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T03:35:00Z raingloom quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-01-31T03:43:30Z emacsomancer joined #scheme 2021-01-31T03:46:53Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T03:51:13Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-31T03:51:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T03:55:06Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-31T04:07:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T04:07:30Z fadein_ is now known as fadein 2021-01-31T04:12:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T04:32:36Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T04:47:16Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T04:47:32Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T04:52:03Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-31T04:54:19Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T04:54:58Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-31T04:58:47Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T04:59:02Z pankajsg joined #scheme 2021-01-31T05:00:54Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T05:02:26Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T05:06:14Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T05:09:46Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T05:09:48Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-31T05:10:38Z terpri joined #scheme 2021-01-31T05:20:10Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-31T05:23:59Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T05:35:02Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T05:35:16Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T05:35:41Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T05:38:05Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T05:38:25Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T05:58:17Z mirrorbird joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:05:23Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:07:38Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-31T06:07:45Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-31T06:09:00Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:16:06Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:20:49Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T06:22:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:25:16Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T06:32:46Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:33:38Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T06:33:57Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:33:58Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-31T06:33:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:33:59Z klovett__ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:35:15Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:35:54Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T06:37:05Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T06:39:26Z r3m joined #scheme 2021-01-31T06:56:59Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T06:58:41Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T07:00:16Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-31T07:03:21Z klovett__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T07:08:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T07:30:29Z malaclyps quit (Quit: gone) 2021-01-31T07:36:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T07:36:41Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T07:39:41Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-31T07:40:16Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T07:56:05Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-31T07:58:56Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:00:36Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:02:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:06:30Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:09:38Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:09:55Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-31T08:10:21Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:10:25Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:11:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:14:26Z Garbanzo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:16:47Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:18:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:31:12Z elflng joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:36:31Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:39:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:40:01Z klovett_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:40:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T08:40:56Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:44:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:51:14Z gagbo joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:56:03Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T08:59:50Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T08:59:52Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T09:08:31Z hendursaga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T09:10:57Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-31T09:28:11Z xelxebar_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T09:28:32Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-31T09:34:15Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-31T09:43:56Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T09:48:24Z jklkjljkl joined #scheme 2021-01-31T09:57:02Z jklkjljkl quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-31T10:04:45Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T10:09:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T10:19:18Z Retropikzel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-31T10:19:30Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2021-01-31T10:26:47Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T10:31:30Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T10:31:31Z lritter joined #scheme 2021-01-31T10:35:47Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-31T10:57:00Z civodul joined #scheme 2021-01-31T11:06:01Z DerGuteMoritz joined #scheme 2021-01-31T11:09:19Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T11:15:45Z skapata joined #scheme 2021-01-31T11:19:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T11:20:14Z gagbo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-31T11:21:05Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T11:26:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T11:47:05Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-31T12:03:53Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-31T12:10:04Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-31T12:17:49Z malaclyps joined #scheme 2021-01-31T12:24:10Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-31T12:51:24Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T12:56:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-31T12:58:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T12:58:29Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-31T12:58:58Z brainfunnel joined #scheme 2021-01-31T13:16:02Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2021-01-31T13:21:49Z ex_nihilo joined #scheme 2021-01-31T13:46:10Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T13:46:57Z mmohammadi9812 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T13:50:43Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T13:55:26Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T13:56:24Z mirrorbird_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T13:56:37Z mirrorbird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-31T14:02:07Z mirrorbird_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T14:05:25Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T14:17:09Z mirrorbird_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T14:18:12Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2021-01-31T14:18:40Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-31T14:22:02Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-31T14:24:06Z mangol quit (Quit: le switch) 2021-01-31T14:33:22Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-31T14:41:25Z phillbush quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-31T14:58:34Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T15:00:00Z klovett_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T15:00:19Z klovett joined #scheme 2021-01-31T15:04:16Z hugh_marera31 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T15:04:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T15:05:22Z hugh_marera31 quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-31T15:05:41Z hugh_marera63 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T15:05:48Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-31T15:06:54Z hugh_marera63 is now known as hugh_marera 2021-01-31T15:12:42Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T15:14:02Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-31T15:27:07Z madage joined #scheme 2021-01-31T15:27:10Z ManDay joined #scheme 2021-01-31T15:31:24Z ManDay: So, if you want to compose a list in a recursion, you start with () and cons stuff onto it. But what do you do if you want to compose a dotted list in the recursion? 2021-01-31T15:32:55Z Oxyd: As in, (a b c . d) instead of (a b c d)? 2021-01-31T15:33:00Z iv4nshm4k0v: ManDay: You start with 'after-the-dot instead of '()? 2021-01-31T15:33:11Z ManDay: Oxyd: yes 2021-01-31T15:33:34Z ManDay: iv4nshm4k0v: god no 2021-01-31T15:33:47Z ManDay: it's a loop. you want me to re-express the first iteration or what? 2021-01-31T15:34:20Z Oxyd: Then use a conditional to detect if the list so far is '() and if so use the current result directly, instead of consing it to the accumulator. 2021-01-31T15:34:37Z ManDay: Jesus people, that's not what I wanted as answers, obviously 2021-01-31T15:35:12Z Oxyd: Then I can only recommend that you ask the question you did want answers to. 2021-01-31T15:35:33Z ManDay: An *elegant* solution, there should be, on-par with the consing. 2021-01-31T15:35:57Z ManDay: I suppose you can just wrap the conditional you mentioned into a specialized "cons", but then I suppose such a cons should already exist 2021-01-31T15:36:29Z ManDay: Because composing a dotted list should be as elegant as composing a list 2021-01-31T15:36:54Z Oxyd: Who told you that it should be as elegant? 2021-01-31T15:37:08Z ManDay: My heart 2021-01-31T15:38:00Z ManDay: Unless you can reason why it's semantically unreasonable to compose a dotted list by recursino 2021-01-31T15:38:05Z ManDay: But I don't think that's the case. 2021-01-31T15:38:31Z ManDay: Known-length tuples should be dotted lists 2021-01-31T15:40:02Z iv4nshm4k0v: Known-length tuples should be vectors, IMHO. 2021-01-31T15:40:14Z Oxyd: Composing dotted lists is fundamentally different from composing proper lists, because dotted lists have a special case for length 2 lists. You will have to express that special case as a special case in your code. 2021-01-31T15:40:22Z ManDay: iv4nshm4k0v: fair point, what would be the corresponding form for doing that? 2021-01-31T15:40:46Z ManDay: Oxyd: you have a point there 2021-01-31T15:42:08Z ManDay: ah yes, the exeption occurs in the first two additions, sure 2021-01-31T15:42:28Z ManDay: i take everything back, Oxyd nailed it 2021-01-31T15:55:21Z Negdayen joined #scheme 2021-01-31T16:00:31Z ManDay: aside, this totally annihilates my world view, as indeed i just realized dotted lists are therefore not the correct type to contain known length tuples 2021-01-31T16:00:39Z ManDay: (well, they can't) 2021-01-31T16:01:23Z ManDay: well, not entirely. they still work well for #>1 2021-01-31T16:11:38Z mdhughes: Well, no. That's what vectors are for. 2021-01-31T16:12:20Z mdhughes: You can use a pair for 2-vector, or (x . #f) for a 1-vector box, but vectors are better. 2021-01-31T16:12:42Z ManDay: yes, as you've probably inferred by now, I'm not overly familar with vectors 2021-01-31T16:13:07Z ManDay: i think some mis-wiring in my brain kept me away from them because I kept associating with math vectors 2021-01-31T16:13:31Z ManDay: (I'm not a good schemer, I know ;-/) 2021-01-31T16:15:21Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T16:20:13Z Melchizedek6309 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T16:20:50Z mirrorbird_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T16:20:56Z jcowan: ManDay: There actually is a connection. You can think of (and even use) a 10-element programming vector as a math vector in a 10-dimensional space. 2021-01-31T16:21:44Z jcowan: But since Scheme vectors are mutable you can make the math vector wiggle about, unlike the usual math vector which is fixed in place. 2021-01-31T16:21:56Z ManDay: i wouldn't call it a vector, unless it's some vector space below. it's just a tuple 2021-01-31T16:22:23Z ManDay: where does this use of "vector" in programming come from, anyway? C++? or were scheme vectors a thing before that? 2021-01-31T16:22:32Z Melchizedek6809 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-31T16:23:17Z ManDay: (or am I wrong and there is actually a reason not to refer to them as tuples?) 2021-01-31T16:23:22Z Oxyd: From the maths usage, I bet. Back in the day, you had scalars, vectors and matrices. 2021-01-31T16:25:05Z ManDay: oh yeah, back to guile error messages baby 2021-01-31T16:25:07Z ManDay: In procedure frame-local-ref: Argument 2 out of range: 1 2021-01-31T16:25:14Z ManDay: I almost forgot how much I love this, lol 2021-01-31T16:26:14Z ManDay: (that one was an easy find, but only because it was obvious "(a-list)" doesn't work) 2021-01-31T16:26:25Z ManDay: the error message is fantastic, again 2021-01-31T16:27:00Z jcowan: Languages often make distinctions between tuples and vectors. For example, in Python vectors are mutable, tuples are immutable. In many strongly typed programming languages, vectors have a single element type like lists, so a vector of ints has type Vector[Int]. Tuples can have multiple types like (String, Date, String). 2021-01-31T16:29:46Z ManDay: yeah that's true. I recognize this from python. it doesn't really connect this to the mathematical terms though. but i guess just no one ever cared. 2021-01-31T16:29:53Z ManDay: they just needed terms. 2021-01-31T16:30:05Z ManDay: (if it were me I'd have invented new words :-D) 2021-01-31T16:30:32Z iv4nshm4k0v: Though there’re ‘fixed-size element’ vectors in Scheme as well (well, SRFI.) 2021-01-31T16:30:51Z Oxyd: Well, if the only types available to you are scalar (i.e. a number), vector (of numbers) or matrix (of numbers), it connects to the maths terms rather well. 2021-01-31T16:33:23Z Oxyd: The connection started getting loose as programming languages allowed you to manipulate values other than numbers. I suppose that might be why some languages call them arrays instead of vectors. 2021-01-31T16:33:47Z ManDay: Oxyd: Yes, I meant the use of these terms and the property of mutability in python 2021-01-31T16:34:07Z ManDay: that seems to be rather arbitrary to me now 2021-01-31T16:34:38Z Oxyd: Python calls them lists, not vectors. Even though they're arrays, not linked lists. 2021-01-31T16:34:38Z Riastradh: `vector' is a pretty lousy word for `array' or `tuple' when there's no vector space structure, and it's especially confusing for the distinction to be mutability vs nonmutability, but such is life. 2021-01-31T16:35:09Z ManDay: Riastradh: a toast to that! x-D 2021-01-31T16:35:12Z Riastradh: and, c'mon, if we have vectors why don't we have covectors too, and tensors of arbitrary rank 2021-01-31T16:35:46Z ManDay: Don't give them any ideas! They will be using that to describe more variations of mutability... 2021-01-31T16:36:21Z Riastradh: (In scmutils there actually are tensors of arbitrary structure (not just covariant and contravariant rank, but arbitrary nesting structure); however, they're called up-tuples and down-tuples rather than any word involving `vector' or `tensor'.) 2021-01-31T16:36:37Z ManDay: that's also why I like scheme; no bollocks, no risk of inconsistencies in the core language 2021-01-31T16:37:22Z ManDay: Riastradh: How does "arbitrary nesting structure" generalize the concept of covariance? 2021-01-31T16:37:24Z iv4nshm4k0v: FWIW, I tend to dislike "array" as a name for an object that lacks proper support for arbitrary number of dimensions. 2021-01-31T16:38:12Z Riastradh: ManDay: If you multiply an up-tuple with an up-tuple or a down-tuple with a down-tuple, it's an outer product. If you multiply an up-tuple with a down-tuple, or vice versa, it's a tensor contraction, and the resulting elements are mutiplied recursively by the same rule. 2021-01-31T16:38:41Z ManDay: but that's just covariance? 2021-01-31T16:38:59Z ManDay: (with some kind of currying, the way you describe it) 2021-01-31T16:42:13Z Riastradh: A traditional (n,m)-rank tensor doesn't have any nesting structure in it, because any nesting structure is isomorphic -- as far as the tensor algebra is concerned -- to a flattened (n,m)-rank tensor. But sometimes the additional structure is useful for composing different groupings of coordinates in your calculation. 2021-01-31T16:42:46Z ManDay: Yes, that's what I meant by currying, but I understand what you mean now. 2021-01-31T16:43:08Z ManDay: (how it consumes indices recursively) 2021-01-31T16:43:47Z ManDay: yeah i guess once your things start having types such a nesting is very useful 2021-01-31T16:44:16Z ManDay: though at this point I can't imagine that this makes sense in a physical setting 2021-01-31T16:47:52Z Riastradh: Consider, e.g., taking the derivative of a function f(x,M) where x is a real number and M is a matrix. 2021-01-31T16:49:15Z Riastradh: Df(x,M) is a linear transformation from an increment in x and M to an increment in f(x,M). Now, an increment is an up-tuple and a linear transformation from increments to increments is a down-tuple, so what's in an increment in (x,M)? 2021-01-31T16:49:53Z Riastradh: Well, an increment in x is a real number, but an increment in M is a matrix. So an increment in (x,M) is of the form (up dx (down (up dM_00 dM_01) (up dM_10 dM_11))). 2021-01-31T16:50:34Z Riastradh: So if you evaluate ((D f) (up x M)) in scmutils, you get a down-tuple that will contract with the shape (up dx (down (up dM_00 ...) ...)) to give back a real number (assuming f is real-valued). 2021-01-31T16:51:18Z Riastradh: Now, you can always globally transform the structure here into a flat (n,m)-rank tensor, but that doesn't make for good composability in a program where you want to view x as one argument and M as a separate argument. 2021-01-31T16:51:53Z ManDay: yes, it's neat. you're right. that's the way it should be for programming 2021-01-31T16:52:03Z ManDay: flattening it would not be appropriate 2021-01-31T16:53:15Z ManDay: I will sure try scmutils next time I hit an according problem 2021-01-31T16:53:17Z ManDay: thanks for the tip 2021-01-31T16:53:39Z ManDay: I have always been disappointed in how algebraic geometry is so awkward to deal with 2021-01-31T16:53:58Z ManDay: (python for the most part) 2021-01-31T16:54:11Z ManDay: but I've never seen a really good, universal approach 2021-01-31T16:55:09Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T16:59:16Z amirouche: https://mendhekar.medium.com/why-i-still-lisp-and-you-should-too-18a2ae36bd8 2021-01-31T16:59:57Z amirouche: It is a little verbose and I disagree with the fact that scheme is not fast and that it is more difficult to learn. 2021-01-31T17:02:07Z gzj joined #scheme 2021-01-31T17:04:32Z Riastradh: yay mit-scheme 11.1 is finally out 2021-01-31T17:05:33Z Riastradh: (lots of numerical improvements) 2021-01-31T17:06:25Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T17:09:51Z Zipheir: amirouche: "Scheme is not fast." "Which Scheme?" 2021-01-31T17:10:02Z dieggsy: Riastradh: where can I read about the new features/improvements 2021-01-31T17:10:07Z Riastradh: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/release.html 2021-01-31T17:11:51Z Zipheir: Nice! 2021-01-31T17:13:56Z dieggsy: cool 2021-01-31T17:21:20Z amirouche: Zipheir: yes. 2021-01-31T17:23:04Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T17:27:47Z imode joined #scheme 2021-01-31T17:28:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T17:33:34Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T17:37:01Z ManDay quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-31T17:51:45Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T17:56:22Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-31T17:56:58Z Formbi- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T17:57:12Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-31T18:04:36Z Formbi joined #scheme 2021-01-31T18:10:59Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T18:16:09Z Formbi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T18:22:37Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T18:25:46Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T18:26:34Z Formbi joined #scheme 2021-01-31T18:34:55Z PMG2040k joined #scheme 2021-01-31T18:35:09Z PMG2040k left #scheme 2021-01-31T18:35:34Z Garbanzo joined #scheme 2021-01-31T18:42:36Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T18:44:50Z Negdayen quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-01-31T18:46:03Z gioyik joined #scheme 2021-01-31T19:01:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T19:05:25Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-31T19:10:37Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2021-01-31T19:34:05Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T20:06:12Z amirouche1: I replied to the above medium post at https://hyper.dev/474a460494fc4bf7823afdc0b75dabc1.html 2021-01-31T20:09:29Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-01-31T20:10:18Z Zipheir: Actually reading the original post; this is very, very silly: "In old Hindi movies, the censor board would not allow showing kissing on screen. ... This is what static type checkers feel like. We get presented with a beautiful language that promises us the right to freedom of speech, but then we get slapped with a censorship board policing the speech..." 2021-01-31T20:10:56Z Zipheir: "In other words, static typing is pointless." This person is clueless. 2021-01-31T20:13:33Z Zipheir: Since there are actually decent arguments to be made for dynamic typing, it's unfortunate that we get this kind of nonsense in pro-Lisp propaganda. 2021-01-31T20:18:36Z Zipheir: amirouche1: One point about Scheme's "mostly functional"-ness. Scheme's tradition of providing linear update variants mean that (potentially) mutative operations can be used without switching away from an applicative style; so, to some extent, we can have "reassuring" code using mutation. The catch, of course, is that we have no linear type checker. 2021-01-31T20:19:30Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T20:23:08Z jcowan: Many such interchanges go like this: "I hate static typing, it's a straitjacket, and you have to type the type names all the time." "That is because you are not using ML-style or Haskell-style static typing." "Tell it to my boss." 2021-01-31T20:23:43Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-31T20:24:39Z Zipheir: Heh. 2021-01-31T20:24:40Z jcowan: Ironically, the direct ancestor of Python, queen of the dynamically typed languages these days, was statically typed. 2021-01-31T20:26:07Z Zipheir: It's also bizarre that that author advocates formulating invariants that hold of ver programs, then explicitly rejects any mechanism which could ensure that those invariants hold. 2021-01-31T20:27:26Z Zipheir: I also thought static typing was ineffective before I was exposed to non-C-style typing. A broken static type system is much worse than a correct dynamic one. 2021-01-31T20:27:55Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T20:29:56Z Zipheir: It's just silly when authors resort to these "freedom of speech" analogies to talk about typing disciplines. 2021-01-31T20:30:41Z amirouche1: what is linear type checker? 2021-01-31T20:31:08Z amirouche1: Zipheir: what is ver in "that hold of ver programs" 2021-01-31T20:32:07Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-31T20:32:20Z ArneBab quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-01-31T20:32:55Z Zipheir: amirouche1: It's my favorite epicene pronoun, originally invented by Keri Hulme. "ve says", "I spoke to ver", "that computer is vis". 2021-01-31T20:33:10Z theruran quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-01-31T20:33:33Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T20:33:36Z amirouche1: oh 2021-01-31T20:34:15Z Zipheir: amirouche1: Linear type checking ensures that a reference to a "linear" (mutable, basically) value doesn't get used more than once. Think of Rust's borrow-checker. 2021-01-31T20:35:48Z amirouche1: I stopped rust book at the borrow checker x) 2021-01-31T20:35:49Z Zipheir: So, e.g., this should be an error: (let* ((lis (list 1 2 3)) (lis* (reverse! lis))) (display lis)). I've called a linear-update procedure on lis, *then* used lis. 2021-01-31T20:35:55Z amirouche1: Ok, I will re-read the book more carefully. 2021-01-31T20:36:20Z amirouche1: Zipheir: oh, ah! 2021-01-31T20:36:34Z amirouche1: very handy indeed. 2021-01-31T20:36:37Z Zipheir: Rust doesn't have true linear types, though, IIUC, since you can't have nonlinear Strings, or whatever. 2021-01-31T20:36:43Z xelxebar_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T20:36:56Z Zipheir: I suppose you can, through the Copy trait. Anyway. 2021-01-31T20:37:05Z amirouche1: Rust does not mutate vectors? 2021-01-31T20:37:36Z jcowan: Do you know how SML reconciles plain M-L typing with its handful of overloaded functions? 2021-01-31T20:37:55Z xelxebar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-01-31T20:38:04Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T20:38:09Z Zipheir: amirouche1: It does. 2021-01-31T20:38:16Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T20:38:16Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-31T20:38:16Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T20:38:25Z jcowan: I thought the minute you had things + being both int -> int -> int and float -> float -> float, your H-M system would wind up proving that 0 = 0. 2021-01-31T20:38:27Z Zipheir: amirouche1: I believe Array is its immutable indexed sequence type. 2021-01-31T20:38:58Z Zipheir: jcowan: I'm not sure how it's integrated. I've been meaning to read about it. 2021-01-31T20:41:10Z Zipheir: Wadler has a good bibliography on the topic, at least as it relates to typeclasses. https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/topics/type-classes.html 2021-01-31T20:41:38Z Zipheir: Apparently "How to Make Ad-Hoc Polymorphism Less Ad-Hoc" is the seminal paper there. 2021-01-31T20:41:52Z izh_ joined #scheme 2021-01-31T20:43:46Z Zipheir: amirouche1: Speaking of Wadler, he wrote a really good presentation of linear types http://www.cs.ioc.ee/ewscs/2010/mycroft/linear-2up.pdf 2021-01-31T20:44:33Z amirouche1: ty. 2021-01-31T20:44:44Z amirouche1: I will read it as ASAP ;) 2021-01-31T20:47:08Z Zipheir: jcowan: So, Wadler writes in "Less Ad-Hoc": "The type system presented here is an extension of the Hindley/Milner system. ... During the inference process, it is possible to translate a program using type classes to an equivalent [H-M] program that does not use overloading." So I guess it's compatible without hackery. 2021-01-31T20:47:50Z amirouche1 shout hackery for the win 2021-01-31T20:48:39Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-01-31T20:50:50Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T20:51:19Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2021-01-31T21:02:05Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T21:09:21Z rapgru joined #scheme 2021-01-31T21:09:29Z rapgru quit (Client Quit) 2021-01-31T21:10:51Z Raphael[m]1 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T21:10:52Z Raphael[m]1 is now known as Raphael[m]2 2021-01-31T21:11:55Z rapgru joined #scheme 2021-01-31T21:15:10Z rapgru: Hello! Does someone know the R7RS-small standard and wants to help me understand a detail of section 4.3.2 (pattern language)? 2021-01-31T21:15:29Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T21:16:44Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T21:16:49Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-01-31T21:17:57Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T21:20:40Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T21:20:40Z rapgru: In particular, I do not quite understand what "instance of 〈ellipsis〉" means in the sentence "Pattern variables that occur in subpatterns fol-lowed by one or more instances of the identifier〈ellipsis〉are allowed only in subtemplates that are followed by as many instances of〈ellipsis〉" 2021-01-31T21:22:04Z rapgru: The way I currently see it (which is wrong obviously) is that this would refer to an illegal pattern like (_ e ... ...) 2021-01-31T21:26:57Z rapgru quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-01-31T21:29:44Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T21:34:46Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T21:36:15Z amirouche1: I am not sure but e ... ... means the e ... pattern is repeated 2021-01-31T21:53:52Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-01-31T21:55:37Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T21:55:38Z ArneBab quit (Changing host) 2021-01-31T21:55:38Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:00:14Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:07:10Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T22:07:35Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:09:48Z dieggsy: is there a side-by-side comparison of r5rs/r7rs anywhere? that might be useful 2021-01-31T22:10:30Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T22:11:43Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:12:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T22:15:07Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T22:19:25Z ngz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T22:19:33Z ngz joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:23:35Z ngz` joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:24:30Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-01-31T22:25:16Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T22:26:51Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:30:09Z ngz` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T22:30:41Z ngz` joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:32:21Z aeth: the r7rs-small appendix has it 2021-01-31T22:32:29Z aeth: well, one of the appendices 2021-01-31T22:35:40Z ArneBab quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-01-31T22:36:58Z ArneBab joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:37:56Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T22:40:34Z Riastradh: Actually `... ...' does work, although not very reliably because not all implementations support it. 2021-01-31T22:40:59Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (display "hello") 2021-01-31T22:41:21Z Riastradh: ... 2021-01-31T22:42:02Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-01-31T22:42:14Z Oxyd: Does R7RS require `e ... ...` to work or is that an extension of some implementations? 2021-01-31T22:42:16Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-01-31T22:44:07Z midre joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:44:47Z ngz` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T22:48:39Z sxmx joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:49:13Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T22:50:08Z midre joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:50:25Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:56:36Z theruran joined #scheme 2021-01-31T22:58:40Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2021-01-31T23:13:48Z aeth: ... ... 2021-01-31T23:14:13Z phillbush joined #scheme 2021-01-31T23:20:03Z amirouche1: ... 2021-01-31T23:20:29Z amirouche1: I am pretty sure (e ...) ... is supported 2021-01-31T23:20:32Z amirouche1: somewhere 2021-01-31T23:22:23Z civodul quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-01-31T23:26:37Z malaclyps quit (Quit: gone) 2021-01-31T23:27:09Z malaclyps joined #scheme 2021-01-31T23:29:45Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-01-31T23:30:00Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T23:31:35Z Oxyd: `(e ...) ...` sure. 2021-01-31T23:35:52Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-01-31T23:40:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T23:42:03Z Riastradh: Oxyd: It's probably not 100% clear about it in the prose either way, but the semantics of what it _should_ do if allowed is obvious, so there's no reason to prohibit it -- it's just a corner case that implementors tend to overlook. 2021-01-31T23:42:27Z aeth joined #scheme 2021-01-31T23:42:45Z Riastradh: Anyway, what I was going to ask rudybot to do is: (define-syntax flat2 (syntax-rules () ((flat2 (x ...) ...) '(x ... ...)))) (flat2 (1 2 3) (4 5) (6)) 2021-01-31T23:50:42Z smazga joined #scheme 2021-01-31T23:58:50Z smazga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-01-31T23:59:45Z amirouche1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-01-31T23:59:55Z tessier_ joined #scheme