2020-12-01T00:01:16Z duncanm: i have linux on x64 running in another WSL, let me try that
2020-12-01T00:01:48Z duncanm: this linux/x64 environment has MIT Scheme 10.1.10 installed from ubuntu
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2020-12-01T00:03:59Z duncanm: so thats running fine in linux x64
2020-12-01T00:04:22Z duncanm: so i guess something needs to be done so that `./configure --enable-native-code=aarch64le --enable-cross-compiling` runs on Mac
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2020-12-01T00:08:15Z Riastradh: duncanm: What happens when you try it?
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2020-12-01T00:20:29Z Riastradh: The message you quoted, `error: unknown compiler architecture: aarch64le', suggests you might be using an old version of the git repository, or you have stale artefacts from it which `git clean -dxf' will delete (review `git clean -dxn' first if you want to make sure you don't delete anything important).
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2020-12-01T00:23:21Z duncanm: okay let me try again
2020-12-01T00:24:01Z duncanm: I am making progress cross compiling from linux intel to linux arm64
2020-12-01T00:24:35Z Riastradh: The only part that's OS-specific is the microcode.
2020-12-01T00:24:47Z Riastradh: Everything else works the same on all operating systems.
2020-12-01T00:25:10Z Riastradh: (hence the need to rerun ./configure in microcode on the target system)
2020-12-01T00:28:30Z Riastradh: FYI, it is often helpful to save typescripts with the script(1) command so you can share exactly what you typed and what happened when you typed it.
2020-12-01T00:29:20Z Riastradh: If you run into problems, better to share them than hack at working around them, so if they indicate bugs I can fix them.
2020-12-01T00:38:57Z duncanm: Riastradh: so i'm trying 2 things at the same time
2020-12-01T00:39:11Z duncanm: it looks like linux x64->arm64 kinda worked
2020-12-01T00:39:19Z duncanm: it's failing because of X11
2020-12-01T00:39:36Z duncanm: make[1]: Entering directory '/home/duncan/git/mit-scheme/src/x11'
2020-12-01T00:39:36Z duncanm: make[1]: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
2020-12-01T00:39:36Z duncanm: make[1]: Leaving directory '/home/duncan/git/mit-scheme/src/x11'
2020-12-01T00:39:36Z duncanm: make: *** [Makefile:625: compile-x11] Error 2
2020-12-01T00:39:59Z duncanm: on my arm machine, should I re-run the same ./configure and add --disable-x11?
2020-12-01T00:42:16Z duncanm: i cleaned my checkout on my Mac, let me run that again, even though I don't have an ARM mac to try the 2nd part
2020-12-01T00:43:20Z Riastradh: Hmm...yes, you could try that.
2020-12-01T00:43:39Z duncanm: cool, so the intel mac part did configure fine, it was some stale files
2020-12-01T00:47:30Z duncanm: Riastradh: i noticed that when i re-ran configure in microsoft
2020-12-01T00:47:35Z duncanm: microcode, i mean
2020-12-01T00:47:37Z duncanm: (cd microcode && ./configure --enable-native-code=aarch64le --enable-cross-compiling)
2020-12-01T00:47:54Z duncanm: it printed a warning saying --enable-cross-compiling is not recognized, so maybe that's not needed?
2020-12-01T00:48:07Z duncanm: it's only the top-level configure in src that has the flag, maybe?
2020-12-01T00:51:10Z Riastradh: yes, but it's simpler to just always pass the same arguments than to remember which ones apply where and risk getting them inconsistent.
2020-12-01T00:52:40Z duncanm: aha
2020-12-01T00:53:00Z duncanm: i'll send the instructions to the guy on Twitter and see how it runs on the m1 host
2020-12-01T00:53:13Z duncanm: i was able to run make cross-host on my intel mac
2020-12-01T00:53:28Z duncanm: hmm
2020-12-01T00:53:47Z duncanm: is there a reason why edwin would fail here?
2020-12-01T00:53:51Z duncanm: | ./run-build --batch-mode --no-init-file
2020-12-01T00:53:51Z duncanm: make[1]: Entering directory '/home/duncan/git/mit-scheme/src/edwin'
2020-12-01T00:53:51Z duncanm: make[1]: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
2020-12-01T00:53:51Z duncanm: make[1]: Leaving directory '/home/duncan/git/mit-scheme/src/edwin'
2020-12-01T00:53:51Z duncanm: make: *** [Makefile:644: compile-edwin] Error 2
2020-12-01T00:54:19Z duncanm: do I need to run autogen.sh there?
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2020-12-01T00:55:01Z Riastradh: Sounds like an unclean tree.
2020-12-01T00:55:27Z Riastradh: Did you use the same pathname for the host and the target?
2020-12-01T00:55:29Z duncanm: boo, let me try once more
2020-12-01T00:55:30Z duncanm: yeah
2020-12-01T00:55:31Z Riastradh: /home/duncan/git/mit-scheme
2020-12-01T00:55:37Z duncanm: yes
2020-12-01T00:55:45Z duncanm: i'll run git clean -xfd and try once more
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2020-12-01T01:03:04Z duncanm: Ah, I see this now from my fresh tree
2020-12-01T01:03:08Z duncanm: === configuring in edwin (/home/duncan/git/mit-scheme/src/edwin)
2020-12-01T01:03:08Z duncanm: configure: WARNING: no configuration information is in edwin
2020-12-01T01:03:22Z Riastradh: On what machine, and what is that output from?
2020-12-01T01:03:34Z Riastradh: Can you share the transcript starting from a clean tree?
2020-12-01T01:03:37Z duncanm:  on my intel Linux machine
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2020-12-01T01:08:42Z duncanm: Riastradh: the typescript is here https://keybase.pub/duncanmak/typescript
2020-12-01T01:10:25Z Riastradh: It looks like Setup.sh got interrupted partway through.
2020-12-01T01:11:26Z Riastradh: It ends at `setting up blowfish', but there's no `setting up edwin'.
2020-12-01T01:11:53Z duncanm: right, it just stops there
2020-12-01T01:12:31Z Riastradh: Can you run `sh -x ./Setup.sh' from a clean tree and share the output?
2020-12-01T01:13:54Z duncanm: ha, here are the last 4 lines
2020-12-01T01:13:59Z duncanm: setting up blowfish
2020-12-01T01:13:59Z duncanm: + cd blowfish
2020-12-01T01:13:59Z duncanm: + ./autogen.sh
2020-12-01T01:13:59Z duncanm: + clean
2020-12-01T01:13:59Z duncanm: + [ xdone != xdone ]
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2020-12-01T01:14:56Z Riastradh: What happens if you run:  cd blowfish && sh -x ./autogen.sh
2020-12-01T01:15:49Z duncanm: duncan@DESKTOP-KKTTTA2:~/git/mit-scheme/src/blowfish$ sh -x ./autogen.sh
2020-12-01T01:15:50Z duncanm: + set -e
2020-12-01T01:15:50Z duncanm: + rm -rf m4
2020-12-01T01:15:50Z duncanm: + mkdir m4
2020-12-01T01:15:50Z duncanm: + autoreconf --force --install -I m4
2020-12-01T01:15:57Z Riastradh: echo $?
2020-12-01T01:16:09Z Riastradh: Did autogen.sh exit with status 0?
2020-12-01T01:16:56Z duncanm: returns 1
2020-12-01T01:17:03Z Riastradh: grr
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2020-12-01T01:17:58Z duncanm: I'm on intel Ubuntu 20.04
2020-12-01T01:18:04Z Riastradh: moment
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2020-12-01T01:19:13Z duncanm: maybe this person ran into a similar problem, and that's why edwin didn't run, https://twitter.com/0x0ddc0ffee/status/1333324185288884224
2020-12-01T01:20:07Z Riastradh: duncanm: git pull and try again; this should give better diagnostic output from Setup.sh
2020-12-01T01:20:15Z duncanm: sure thing
2020-12-01T01:21:06Z duncanm: Makefile.am:34: error: Libtool library used but 'LIBTOOL' is undefined
2020-12-01T01:21:06Z duncanm: Makefile.am:34:   The usual way to define 'LIBTOOL' is to add 'LT_INIT'
2020-12-01T01:21:06Z duncanm: Makefile.am:34:   to 'configure.ac' and run 'aclocal' and 'autoconf' again.
2020-12-01T01:21:06Z duncanm: Makefile.am:34:   If 'LT_INIT' is in 'configure.ac', make sure
2020-12-01T01:21:06Z duncanm: Makefile.am:34:   its definition is in aclocal's search path.
2020-12-01T01:21:06Z duncanm: autoreconf: automake failed with exit status: 1
2020-12-01T01:21:32Z Riastradh: OK.  Do you have autoconf, automake, and libtool installed?
2020-12-01T01:22:20Z duncanm: i thought i got everything by using build-essentials
2020-12-01T01:22:27Z duncanm: but it looks like i was missing libtool?
2020-12-01T01:22:30Z Riastradh: dunno
2020-12-01T01:22:37Z duncanm: let me try again
2020-12-01T01:22:50Z duncanm: looks better now
2020-12-01T01:23:15Z Riastradh: If this is Debian, it looks like build-essential doesn't bring in any of those: https://packages.debian.org/sid/build-essential
2020-12-01T01:23:37Z duncanm: Ahh, then i was mistaken
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2020-12-01T02:01:25Z Riastradh: duncanm: Any luck?
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2020-12-01T02:02:33Z duncanm:  Riastradh it got much further along, and it failed at x11base.c
2020-12-01T02:02:40Z Riastradh: Even with --disable-x11?
2020-12-01T02:02:46Z duncanm: so I'm gonna turn on --disable-x11 again and try once more
2020-12-01T02:02:54Z Riastradh: ok
2020-12-01T02:03:54Z duncanm: And Meghan from Twitter said she'll try out the cross-host on her M1 mac, https://twitter.com/0x0ddc0ffee/status/1333586949261516800
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2020-12-01T02:13:56Z duncanm: Ahh, so it fails in Edwin
2020-12-01T02:14:42Z duncanm: https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/a2fb5933f1f3a2715b92f13db39de448/edit
2020-12-01T02:14:53Z duncanm: ;Unassigned variable: top-level?
2020-12-01T02:17:40Z Riastradh: Full transcript?
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2020-12-01T02:19:49Z Riastradh: Hmm.
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2020-12-01T02:48:25Z Riastradh: duncanm: This was on the target, right?
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2020-12-01T03:19:33Z duncanm: yes
2020-12-01T03:19:41Z duncanm: it was on target
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2020-12-01T03:23:48Z Riastradh: duncanm: What version of MIT Scheme did you use to build the host?
2020-12-01T03:23:49Z duncanm: Riastradh: do you see it too?
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2020-12-01T03:24:21Z duncanm: duncan@DESKTOP-KKTTTA2:~/git/mit-scheme$ scheme --version
2020-12-01T03:24:21Z duncanm: MIT/GNU Scheme microcode 15.3
2020-12-01T03:24:21Z duncanm: Copyright (C) 2019 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
2020-12-01T03:24:21Z duncanm: This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or
2020-12-01T03:24:21Z duncanm: FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
2020-12-01T03:24:21Z duncanm: Image saved on Thursday September 5, 2019 at 11:51:46 AM
2020-12-01T03:24:22Z duncanm:   Release 10.1.10 || Microcode 15.3 || Runtime 15.7 || SF 4.41 || LIAR/x86-64 4.118
2020-12-01T03:24:28Z Riastradh: No, but it rings a bell, and I suspect it's related to <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/?id=fec3f03fab2b9d2b982d3609e6ff8ca55690bc6e>.
2020-12-01T03:24:45Z Riastradh: OK.  Can you try 11.0.90 instead?
2020-12-01T03:25:16Z Riastradh: Or at least 10.1.11?
2020-12-01T03:26:02Z Riastradh: (I'm having a hard time imagining/remembering why it would make a difference, because the cross-toolchain is supposed to take care of differences like that.  But it should be easy to test.)
2020-12-01T03:27:27Z duncanm: looks like Ubuntu 20.10 has a new MIT Scheme
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2020-12-01T03:31:00Z duncanm: okay, i have 10.1.11 now
2020-12-01T03:38:26Z Riastradh: oh wait
2020-12-01T03:38:29Z Riastradh: I don't think 10.1.11 has that change.
2020-12-01T03:38:34Z Riastradh: bah
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2020-12-01T03:39:33Z Riastradh: Well, won't hurt to try in case my guess is wrong.
2020-12-01T03:39:36Z duncanm: well, i just got a built host tree with 10.1.11
2020-12-01T03:39:39Z duncanm: yeah, i'm gonna give it a go
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2020-12-01T03:43:23Z duncanm: sigh, i guess i'll need to get a newer MIT Scheme on my intel host first
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2020-12-01T03:47:32Z Riastradh: ah
2020-12-01T03:47:50Z duncanm: Riastradh: I downloaded https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mit-scheme/testing.pkg/11.0.90/mit-scheme-11.0.90-aarch64le.tar.gz onto my ARM machine
2020-12-01T03:47:56Z Riastradh: There is another change which might be relevant in 10.1.11.
2020-12-01T03:48:05Z duncanm: what can I do with it, I can't even find a binary
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2020-12-01T03:48:37Z duncanm: oh, that's just the com and bin files, i need to do that dual thing, you showed it to me once
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2020-12-01T03:48:43Z Riastradh: For mit-scheme-11.0.90-aarch64le: cd src && ./configure --prefix=/wherever && make && make install
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2020-12-01T03:49:16Z duncanm: Hmm, I'm gonna write this down - is this stuff written down anywhere?
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2020-12-01T03:49:28Z duncanm: I'm gonna jot this all down here, https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/fd8fa119ee2dfb4b2f15af8dc97adc84
2020-12-01T03:49:37Z mdhughes: Side note, MacPorts really could use a new mit-scheme, it's stuck at 9.2.3
2020-12-01T03:49:42Z Riastradh: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/testing/mit-scheme-user/Unix-Installation.html
2020-12-01T03:49:42Z duncanm: I'd happily contribute this back into the repo later on once it all worked out
2020-12-01T03:51:33Z Riastradh: duncanm: I would really like to figure out what is going on with the cross-compiler; cross-compilation should not be a second-class citizen, and it's been working for me as the main method of building for years now.
2020-12-01T03:52:04Z Riastradh: I'm trying a clean build of 10.1.11 to see if I can reproduce it.
2020-12-01T03:52:16Z duncanm: so i should install MIT Scheme 11.0.90 on my intel machine and try that?
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2020-12-01T03:53:07Z Riastradh: What happened with 10.1.11?
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2020-12-01T03:54:08Z duncanm: i tried it, i still got the missing top-level? thing
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2020-12-01T03:54:43Z duncanm: and i tried the mit-scheme-11.0.90-aarch64le.tar.gz  and it ran
2020-12-01T03:55:15Z duncanm: but edwin doesn't seem to initialize the display
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2020-12-01T03:56:30Z duncanm: Riastradh: this is a shorter run of the error, https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/97dc236ac3384194a45027e7f03b64d6
2020-12-01T03:56:47Z Riastradh: Can you do
2020-12-01T03:56:53Z Riastradh: ./run-build
2020-12-01T03:57:07Z duncanm: I get a REPL
2020-12-01T03:57:22Z Riastradh: (ve '(scode-optimizer transform))
2020-12-01T03:57:32Z Riastradh: (pp transform/top-level-1)
2020-12-01T03:57:35Z Riastradh: and share the output?
2020-12-01T03:59:20Z duncanm: Riastradh: https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/bedc54de79a22d1eba52a6b057d17281
2020-12-01T04:00:22Z Riastradh: OK, so the problem is what I thought -- it should be (let ((temp-top-level? (safe-reference top-level?))) ...), and for some reason is not.
2020-12-01T04:00:50Z Riastradh: Can you confirm what commit the tree you're building on is at?
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2020-12-01T04:04:39Z Riastradh: Also, can you tell me how you're copying everything over to the target system?
2020-12-01T04:05:19Z duncanm: i'm building the HEAD of master, with the commit you just pushed - 1aeb3baa00ba784cabdb7a447dc327ea4e4cf510
2020-12-01T04:06:05Z duncanm: I do cd .. to the root, and i run `zip -q mit-scheme.zip -r mit-scheme`
2020-12-01T04:06:44Z duncanm: since i'm also on windows, i copy the zip file over and then i unzip it fresh (rm -rf mit-scheme; zip -q mit-scheme.zip)
2020-12-01T04:06:44Z Riastradh: Do you extract that into a fresh empty directory, or do you extract that on top of what you had before?
2020-12-01T04:06:50Z duncanm: fresh
2020-12-01T04:07:19Z Riastradh: Can you run  find . -iname '*.bin'  in the tree you just extracted and show me the output?
2020-12-01T04:07:20Z duncanm: i can upload my mit-scheme.zip somewhere, my tree lives in /home/duncan/git/mit-scheme
2020-12-01T04:07:24Z Riastradh: sure
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2020-12-01T04:17:10Z duncanm: bah, OneDrive is kinda slow to upload, https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjBmkESGcIzQ6CR-1X_6fxoYM9G9?e=7713Xc
2020-12-01T04:19:47Z Riastradh: OK, I just built a clean 10.1.11 from 10.1.10; then cross-built master from 10.1.11 (on x86 to x86), and it worked fine.
2020-12-01T04:20:30Z Riastradh: Hmm.
2020-12-01T04:21:06Z Riastradh: duncanm: This is what you copied from the host to the target, and ran `make cross-target' in?
2020-12-01T04:21:14Z duncanm: it's the latest yes
2020-12-01T04:21:21Z duncanm: oops
2020-12-01T04:21:23Z duncanm: yes, that's it
2020-12-01T04:22:04Z Riastradh: OK, just a moment.  I am pretty sure there should not be .bin or .com files in there (except under tools/) but I'm checking just to be sure.
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2020-12-01T04:27:46Z Riastradh: duncanm: How did you clean the tree on the host before starting the build?
2020-12-01T04:28:04Z duncanm: i think so
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2020-12-01T04:28:29Z Riastradh: As an experiment, on the target, try doing:
2020-12-01T04:28:31Z Riastradh: cd /path/to/src
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2020-12-01T04:28:44Z Riastradh: find . -type f \( -iname '*.bin' -o -iname '*.com' \) | grep -v '^\./tools/' | xargs rm
2020-12-01T04:28:54Z Riastradh: Then run make cross-target again.
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2020-12-01T04:29:36Z duncanm: no bueno
2020-12-01T04:29:40Z duncanm: DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:src (master)$  find . -type f \( -iname '*.bin' -o -iname '*.com' \) | grep -v '^\./tools/' | xargs rm
2020-12-01T04:29:40Z duncanm: DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:src (master)$ make -j4 cross-target
2020-12-01T04:29:40Z duncanm: (. etc/functions.sh && get_fasl_file && cd runtime \
2020-12-01T04:29:40Z duncanm:   && (echo '(disk-save "../lib/runtime.com")' \
2020-12-01T04:29:40Z duncanm:        | ../run-build --batch-mode --fasl "${FASL}"))
2020-12-01T04:29:40Z duncanm: Can't find argument for --fasl.
2020-12-01T04:29:40Z duncanm: make: *** [Makefile:804: lib/runtime.com] Error 1
2020-12-01T04:29:41Z duncanm: DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:src (master)$ pwd
2020-12-01T04:29:41Z duncanm: /home/duncan/git/mit-scheme/src
2020-12-01T04:29:51Z Riastradh: eh
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2020-12-01T04:30:26Z Riastradh: right, that won't work
2020-12-01T04:30:30Z duncanm: i still have the zip file on my target machine, so i can clean and try again
2020-12-01T04:30:50Z duncanm: is it that i prepped it wrong on the host, I can do it again
2020-12-01T04:31:16Z Riastradh: That's my guess, but before sending you on a wild goose chase I'm double-checking.
2020-12-01T04:31:39Z duncanm: i've cleaned the tree on my host and i'll run thru the steps again
2020-12-01T04:32:03Z Riastradh: OK, I misremembered when the .nib files get converted to .bin files -- that does happen on the host after all.
2020-12-01T04:32:14Z duncanm: it sure will be nice to be able to build the whole thing on ARM64 one day
2020-12-01T04:32:52Z Riastradh: Oh, sure, that can be done.
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2020-12-01T04:33:07Z Riastradh: hmmmmmmmm
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2020-12-01T04:41:30Z duncanm: Riastradh: i ran thru the steps and I see bin files everywhere and not just under tools
2020-12-01T04:41:49Z Riastradh: yes, as I said: I misremembered when the .nib files get converted to .bin files.
2020-12-01T04:41:53Z Riastradh: It happens in cross-host, not in cross-target.
2020-12-01T04:41:53Z duncanm: and *.com files too
2020-12-01T04:42:13Z Riastradh: Where do you see *.com files?  Or do you mean after cross-target?
2020-12-01T04:42:25Z duncanm: no, just on cross-host
2020-12-01T04:42:34Z Riastradh: What .com files?
2020-12-01T04:42:37Z duncanm: well, i'm checking on the intel host
2020-12-01T04:43:00Z duncanm: oh com files are under tools, except for compiler/make.com
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2020-12-01T04:44:10Z Riastradh: OK, compiler/make.com is to be expected.
2020-12-01T04:44:23Z Riastradh: (but that's the only exception)
2020-12-01T04:47:50Z foof: make.com is domain squatted
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2020-12-01T04:50:39Z Riastradh: So I just extracted your mit-scheme.zip on an aarch64 system in the right directory, and ran `(cd microcode && ./configure --enable-native-code=aarch64le) && make -j4 cross-target', and it seems to be working fine.
2020-12-01T04:50:53Z Riastradh: Can you send me the full, unabridged transcript of your `make cross-target' run?
2020-12-01T04:52:22Z Riastradh: (since you're using gmake, maybe skip the -j4 option since gmake's -j interleaves output and makes it hard to follow)
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2020-12-01T04:54:13Z duncanm: hmm
2020-12-01T04:54:19Z duncanm: let me start from the zip file
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2020-12-01T04:57:22Z Riastradh: Can you also run `env' and include the output in the transacript?
2020-12-01T04:57:24Z Riastradh: transcript
2020-12-01T04:58:48Z duncanm: Riastradh: here's the typescript - https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/bedc54de79a22d1eba52a6b057d17281
2020-12-01T04:59:57Z duncanm: here's the env, https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/e60e854cff126e4949df8c99f23209f0
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2020-12-01T05:06:04Z Riastradh: duncanm: Can you do:
2020-12-01T05:06:06Z Riastradh: ./run-build
2020-12-01T05:06:08Z Riastradh: (define foo)
2020-12-01T05:06:16Z duncanm: on target, right?
2020-12-01T05:06:19Z Riastradh: yes
2020-12-01T05:06:26Z Riastradh: (scode-eval (system-hunk3-cons (microcode-type 'variable) 'foo #f #f) (nearest-repl/environment))
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2020-12-01T05:06:32Z Riastradh: and share the output?
2020-12-01T05:06:36Z Riastradh: (`yes' was an answer, not a thing to type in)
2020-12-01T05:07:12Z duncanm:   Release 12.0.50 || SF || LIAR/AArch64
2020-12-01T05:07:12Z duncanm: 1 ]=> (define foo)
2020-12-01T05:07:12Z duncanm: ;Value: foo
2020-12-01T05:07:12Z duncanm: 1 ]=> (scode-eval (system-hunk3-cons (microcode-type 'variable) 'foo #f #f) (nearest-repl/environment))
2020-12-01T05:07:12Z duncanm: ;Value: #[reference-trap 22]
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2020-12-01T05:09:47Z Riastradh: OK, that looks right.
2020-12-01T05:09:59Z Riastradh: Can you also do (pp (fasload "sf/xform.bin")) and share the output?
2020-12-01T05:11:18Z duncanm: https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/285adf9b0456819f82f03e8463443335
2020-12-01T05:11:35Z duncanm: so i see  (define top-level?) there
2020-12-01T05:11:38Z duncanm: line 28
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2020-12-01T05:13:13Z Riastradh: errr
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2020-12-01T05:14:10Z Riastradh: I ran into a different problem with your .zip thing -- compiling imail fails trying to load edwin.bld, which doesn't exist in the place imail is looking, because your zip archive seems to have created copies of directores where there are symlinks.
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2020-12-01T05:14:31Z duncanm: oh! maybe zip is not the smartest
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2020-12-01T05:14:40Z Riastradh: I would use tar unless you absolutely must use zip for some reason.
2020-12-01T05:15:03Z duncanm: i could try tar
2020-12-01T05:15:12Z Riastradh: tar cf - mit-scheme | gzip -c > mit-scheme.tgz
2020-12-01T05:15:15Z Riastradh: transfer over
2020-12-01T05:15:18Z Riastradh: rm -rf mit-scheme
2020-12-01T05:15:27Z Riastradh: gunzip -c < mit-scheme.tgz | tar xvf -
2020-12-01T05:17:14Z foof: because tar in reverse is rat, whereas zip is just piz
2020-12-01T05:22:34Z duncanm: nice, it worked, so zip was causing problems this whole time?
2020-12-01T05:22:59Z duncanm: where's the final binary?
2020-12-01T05:23:03Z duncanm: DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:src (master)$ ./microcode/scheme --edit
2020-12-01T05:23:03Z duncanm: ./microcode/scheme: can't find a readable default for option --band.
2020-12-01T05:23:03Z duncanm:         searched for file all.com in these directories:
2020-12-01T05:23:03Z duncanm:         /usr/local/lib/mit-scheme-aarch64le-12.0.50
2020-12-01T05:24:47Z Riastradh: ./microcode/scheme --library lib --edit
2020-12-01T05:24:55Z Riastradh: or
2020-12-01T05:24:57Z Riastradh: ./run-build --edit
2020-12-01T05:25:06Z Riastradh: or run make install.
2020-12-01T05:25:21Z duncanm: i was able to run it like this too
2020-12-01T05:25:23Z duncanm:  MITSCHEME_LIBRARY_PATH=./lib microcode/scheme --edit
2020-12-01T05:25:25Z Riastradh: sure
2020-12-01T05:25:30Z Riastradh: same as --library lib
2020-12-01T05:25:32Z duncanm: right
2020-12-01T05:25:54Z duncanm: fun fun
2020-12-01T05:26:14Z Riastradh: Lesson: zip is bad news; always just use tar or rsync!
2020-12-01T05:26:24Z duncanm: normally i'd run rsync
2020-12-01T05:26:37Z duncanm: but going to WSL to another WSL is tricky
2020-12-01T05:26:38Z foof: piz I say!
2020-12-01T05:26:43Z Riastradh: pigz is ok
2020-12-01T05:28:28Z foof: cpio is ok too
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2020-12-01T17:08:15Z amirouche: "Something I don't understand about Scheme's fragmentation" https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/k2ommn/something_i_dont_understand_about_schemes/
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2020-12-01T17:09:11Z Zipheir: Where is the library (scheme small) defined, if indeed it is outside of chibi?
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2020-12-01T17:10:56Z Zipheir: amirouche: It sounds like someone has taken Scheme's wikipedia page ("a minimal dialect of Lisp") a little too seriously.
2020-12-01T17:11:14Z Zipheir: amirouche: And where are the questions?  It just seems to be a complaint about the fragmentation.
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2020-12-01T17:13:48Z Zipheir: False.  Right fold on lists can't be implemented lazily.
2020-12-01T17:13:53Z Zipheir: Oops, ww.
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2020-12-01T17:26:21Z jcowan: Zipheir: It's strictly Chibi, and so the use of a name (scheme ...) is technically wrong, but I don't feel there's any reason to object.
2020-12-01T17:26:55Z amirouche: Zipheir: A) What is the point of "minimalism" B) Why the fragmentation?
2020-12-01T17:27:03Z Zipheir: jcowan: Aha, thanks!
2020-12-01T17:27:24Z Zipheir: amirouche: OK, those are (vague) questions.
2020-12-01T17:27:29Z gwatt: is the name (scheme ...) reserved for future extensions to the standar?
2020-12-01T17:27:48Z amirouche: Zipheir: I find the whole thread interesting, not just the question.
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2020-12-01T17:33:30Z Zipheir: amirouche: Yes, there's some interesting discussion.  I think OP's line of questioning is tediously familiar: "Why isn't Scheme like <language>?  What do you do if you can't do X in some hypothetical program I'm not going to describe?  What is Scheme good for?", etc., etc., etc.
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2020-12-01T17:35:22Z Zipheir: There seems to be an army of vascillating programmers out there with these questions.
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2020-12-01T17:37:53Z Zipheir: That's plausible.
2020-12-01T17:38:08Z Zipheir: Argh, again, ww.
2020-12-01T17:39:17Z jcowan: gwatt: Yes.  It's already in use for R7RS-large systems that implement the Red or Tangerine Editions, concurrently with the (srfi nnn) names.
2020-12-01T17:40:22Z jcowan: e.g. in a conformant system either (scheme list) or (srfi 1) can be imported, and they are the same.  I think SRFI 101 is the only discrepant one.'
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2020-12-02T00:31:15Z mdhughes: A lot of people are used to single-impl systems like Python and Julia. Only hardcore coders realize there's more than [gcc|clang] whichever is installed on their system.
2020-12-02T00:32:04Z mdhughes: So if they discover Scheme, it's the first time they've ever had to compare impls, and don't have any framework for doing so.
2020-12-02T00:32:34Z mdhughes: Back in the old days, we'd have like 10 C compilers unique to each platform, and they all sucked in different ways.
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2020-12-02T03:19:02Z remby: hi, I'm planning on doing aoc in scheme, but I admit it's tricky for me to get started with io
2020-12-02T03:19:18Z remby: is there a way to scan for numbers in standard input?
2020-12-02T03:19:40Z remby: I wouldn't want to call get-line and use string->num each time
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2020-12-02T04:04:10Z mdhughes: You can often just use (read), but that won't always work out.
2020-12-02T04:04:48Z mdhughes: When I did AOC in Scheme a couple years ago, I wrote a bunch of utility code for the first day, added a bit more each day, until it was trivial on new puzzles.
2020-12-02T04:05:38Z Zipheir: remby: That's a perfectly reasonable approach for a simple program.  If you want to handle more than just a single number, you'll need to write a parser.
2020-12-02T04:06:10Z remby: ok, that sounds fun anyways
2020-12-02T04:06:36Z mdhughes: Most of the AOC inputs are one value per line, not real parser problems.
2020-12-02T04:07:05Z remby: what I came up with https://bpa.st/K6YQ
2020-12-02T04:07:10Z remby: doesn't compile yet
2020-12-02T04:07:32Z remby: oh I see it
2020-12-02T04:07:40Z remby: string-number should be string->number
2020-12-02T04:08:39Z remby: heh, I see my poor algorithm needs work
2020-12-02T04:09:43Z Zipheir: remby: Nice.  A point of idiomatic Scheme: you can write t? more compactly with `and'.
2020-12-02T04:10:25Z mdhughes: That's basically right, but wrap the file read outside, and loop a worker function inside over every line. Check for (eof-object? line) before using them.
2020-12-02T04:10:43Z remby: good call
2020-12-02T04:11:46Z mdhughes: I'm all too aware I don't have time this year to do it, I wish they'd spread it out to one a week for a few months instead.
2020-12-02T04:11:47Z Zipheir: There's a bug in your program, though.  The hint is that the order in which the arguments of a Scheme procedure are evaluated is unspecified.
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2020-12-02T04:14:08Z Zipheir: You've also got to check whether string->number returned a number or #f.
2020-12-02T04:14:33Z mdhughes: AOC inputs are always valid.
2020-12-02T04:16:34Z Zipheir: Program calculation does get easier, I think.  At first it seems like an extremely slow way to write programs.
2020-12-02T04:16:58Z Zipheir: siraben: ^^
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2020-12-02T04:18:31Z remby: mdhughes: I'm not sure what you mean, it seems like I would open the file twice
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2020-12-02T04:18:54Z remby: in order to get every possible combination
2020-12-02T04:23:26Z mdhughes: Something like https://paste.debian.net/1175208/
2020-12-02T04:23:31Z mdhughes: (written, not tested)
2020-12-02T04:24:08Z mdhughes: And you'd have to test a & b and return #f to end it, I didn't do that
2020-12-02T04:27:34Z remby: ok, I had a similar idea with closures if I understand them correctly
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2020-12-02T04:31:23Z remby: thanks for the help
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2020-12-02T04:46:34Z remby: I thought adding a lambda would help me get a in  the first (lambda (in-port) ... form, but the editor says it's unbound. is this because closure does not work this way or something else
2020-12-02T04:46:37Z remby: https://bpa.st/3Y7A
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2020-12-02T04:49:17Z mdhughes: lambda just creates a function, it doesn't eval it immediately. And you're opening the same file again?
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2020-12-02T04:49:52Z mdhughes: Are the numbers in pairs, or do you need to compare every number against every other number?
2020-12-02T04:50:34Z mdhughes: Because I assumed the former, but if it's the latter, you need to read it into a list and just loop over the lists.
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2020-12-02T04:55:05Z remby: I need to compare against every number, so I figured a closure might do it, but yeah seems I need to do that
2020-12-02T04:55:16Z siraben: Zipheir: i agree
2020-12-02T04:55:51Z siraben: What helps is applying program calculation to programming problems, e.g. leetcode https://gist.github.com/siraben/ccb604e5e77eb532c00c14a65b71b399
2020-12-02T04:56:33Z Zipheir: remby: What is `a' in (t? (b a)) ?  It seems to be unbound.
2020-12-02T04:57:03Z siraben: Here's one I just finished after several hours of calculation, https://gist.github.com/siraben/6b1f57ff1a3fbb76432eb79f0f91f507 partly because I ran into dead ends trying to apply certain lemmas
2020-12-02T04:57:09Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2020-12-02T04:57:36Z remby: Zipheir: it is unbound, I had tried to bring the a from the anonymous lambda subform
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2020-12-02T04:58:35Z Zipheir: There's also a missing paren in the inner lambda, before call-with-input-file.
2020-12-02T04:58:47Z siraben: remby: hint, it is possible to do this in linear time
2020-12-02T04:58:49Z siraben: using a hashmap
2020-12-02T04:58:56Z siraben: AOC day 1
2020-12-02T04:59:25Z Zipheir: siraben: What does FlexibleContexts do in GHC?
2020-12-02T04:59:30Z remby: not worried about that, just wanted to work with some files :P but yeah it does seem best to keep it in memeory
2020-12-02T04:59:43Z siraben: Zipheir: oh nothing, I was trying to get GHC to shut up about ambigious types
2020-12-02T04:59:49Z Zipheir: Hah.
2020-12-02T04:59:56Z siraben: Since I used foldr which is generic over Foldalbes
2020-12-02T04:59:58Z siraben: Foldables*
2020-12-02T05:00:07Z siraben: interestingly part 2 of day 1 _cannot_ be done in linear time and it is an open question whether it can be done in O(n^(2-e)) for some e > 0
2020-12-02T05:00:10Z siraben: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3SUM
2020-12-02T05:00:28Z Zipheir: Hmm, leetcode is new to me.  Interesting problems.
2020-12-02T05:00:58Z siraben: I haven't signed up for it but I've had several friends recommend it for interview practice, heh
2020-12-02T05:01:31Z Zipheir: Heh: ""3sum" redirects here. For the malt beverage, see Comparison of alcopops § Beer-based.
2020-12-02T05:01:32Z siraben: Reframing the problems as an exercise in program calculation makes them much more interesting.
2020-12-02T05:01:55Z siraben: Collision!
2020-12-02T05:02:16Z Zipheir: Agreed.  I had a lot more fun with Origami Programming as a result of taking that approach.
2020-12-02T05:04:30Z Zipheir: Amusingly, the leetcode devs clearly didn't dream that anyone would approach these problems by calculation, since most of the page is an IDE for whatever language you're using.
2020-12-02T05:04:42Z Zipheir: Solve the problem, then write the code!
2020-12-02T05:05:32Z siraben: I didn't quite click with Origami Programming, I liked the way it was presenting in Algebra of Programming, Universality and Expressiveness of Fold, and Algebraic Identities for Program Calculation
2020-12-02T05:05:37Z siraben: s/presenting/presented
2020-12-02T05:06:23Z mdhughes: There's also https://projecteuler.net
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2020-12-02T05:07:16Z siraben: Yeah, I remember doing Project Euler quite a bit in the past, heh using Mathematica though.
2020-12-02T05:07:21Z siraben: Those problems would be hard to do via calculation
2020-12-02T05:09:02Z Zipheir: Yeah, Origami Programming has a pretty brisk style.  I haven't looked at Jeremy Gibbons new book, but I wonder if his writing is usually so terse.
2020-12-02T05:09:28Z Zipheir: I love Algebra of Programs, but it is certainly arcane.
2020-12-02T05:09:39Z Zipheir: Ahem, Algebra of Programming.
2020-12-02T05:10:17Z Zipheir: Also, the "bananas and barbed wire" paper (Meertens and Bird?  There's another author, IIRC.)
2020-12-02T05:11:52Z siraben: Ah, I haven't read Gibbons' new book as well.
2020-12-02T05:12:35Z siraben: AoP loves to present things very generically once they introduce category theory, so various fusion laws are presented in terms of type functors and catamorphisms
2020-12-02T05:12:54Z Zipheir: I'm wondering if a gradually-typed Scheme would be more plausible than R7RS for program calculation.
2020-12-02T05:13:21Z siraben: The real kicker is when AoP goes relational, it seems very powerful but I need to do more exercises.
2020-12-02T05:13:44Z siraben: I haven't used gradually typed languages before, what's using them like?
2020-12-02T05:13:51Z Zipheir: Yeah, the relational stuff is what I don't understand yet.
2020-12-02T05:14:07Z Zipheir: No idea!  I need to find an implementation of one.  The field is very active.
2020-12-02T05:15:29Z Zipheir: Typed Racket is probably the most familiar example in the Scheme world.
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2020-12-02T05:24:58Z siraben: Zipheir: one could always implement one!
2020-12-02T05:25:14Z siraben: Dang, even https://plzoo.andrej.com doesn't have it
2020-12-02T05:26:08Z siraben: Yeah, very active field; https://github.com/samth/gradual-typing-bib
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2020-12-02T09:06:36Z amirouche: hello #scheme!
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2020-12-02T09:43:15Z srandon111: hello all, guys i read SICP and would like to use scheme for practical purposes, what scheme dialect would you suggest? I want to develop cli apps
2020-12-02T09:44:45Z srandon111: i would like something like this : https://leanpub.com/practicalscheme but finished :D
2020-12-02T09:46:21Z amirouche: what will those cli apps do?
2020-12-02T09:47:38Z srandon111: amirouche, http requests or database interaction stff like that
2020-12-02T09:47:59Z srandon111: amirouche, so isn't there a general purpose scheme i can use instead of being so pinned down to my app ?
2020-12-02T09:49:11Z mdhughes: srandon111: I use Chez for my work, but CHICKEN works well, too.
2020-12-02T09:49:40Z amirouche: every scheme has strong aspects and less strong aspects. My favorite Scheme is Chez Scheme, but there is a somewhat long way to go to be able to do http requests with TLS support and database especially SQL ones
2020-12-02T09:49:49Z amirouche: I was going to suggest chicken too
2020-12-02T09:51:24Z amirouche: basically it depends whether you have time to invest into getting together the necessary tools required to do your immediate (?) need?
2020-12-02T09:51:29Z mdhughes: For databases, you'll have more choices with CHICKEN. With Chez, there's Sqlite in thunderchez, and somewhere else I've seen mysql & postgres
2020-12-02T09:52:00Z srandon111: mdhughes, the thing is that i would like to have a book explaining the usage ofdifferent libraries to do basic things
2020-12-02T09:52:01Z amirouche: I think Chez is a better investment in the long run.
2020-12-02T09:52:06Z srandon111: like http reuqests and so on...
2020-12-02T09:52:22Z mdhughes: There's no books, but there's plenty of web pages.
2020-12-02T09:52:34Z srandon111: mdhughes, can you give me sosme links ?
2020-12-02T09:52:39Z amirouche: srandon111: by the way, how did you find out about that book?
2020-12-02T09:53:21Z srandon111: amirouche, i don't know i just searched books about chicken scheme... but it seems that it's an abandoned project
2020-12-02T09:53:24Z srandon111: just 5% complete
2020-12-02T09:56:15Z amirouche: for any scheme, you will need a some level of autonomy because the community, but again with chicken you will be in good hand, check out the channel #chicken
2020-12-02T09:56:35Z mdhughes: http://eggs.call-cc.org/5/ has all the CHICKEN eggs, then click thru to postgresql http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/postgresql
2020-12-02T09:58:14Z mdhughes: Ah, Chez has postgresql in snowfort: http://snow-fort.org/pkg/
2020-12-02T09:58:44Z mdhughes: But the description page is being rendered as plain text, not HTML! Well.
2020-12-02T09:59:04Z amirouche: yeah but no http library... with TLS, yet...
2020-12-02T09:59:50Z mdhughes: Chicken has awful, which I've used a little and it's not so bad; and some others.
2020-12-02T10:00:01Z amirouche: awful?
2020-12-02T10:00:08Z amirouche: is it the name a library?
2020-12-02T10:00:27Z mdhughes: http://eggs.call-cc.org/5/#web
2020-12-02T10:01:21Z mdhughes: Though I would probably use Scheme as CGI under some standard server like nginx or Apache.
2020-12-02T10:03:44Z amirouche: what I can tell is chicken community is active, unlike Chez...
2020-12-02T10:04:09Z mdhughes: More bugs to fix = more activity.
2020-12-02T10:07:24Z wasamasa: wait, chez isn't active?
2020-12-02T10:07:41Z wasamasa: I thought it is with akku and thunderchez and usage of snowfort and whatnot
2020-12-02T10:08:30Z mdhughes: It's not a very noisy community. Racket's based on it now, there's plenty of source activity & maintenance.
2020-12-02T10:09:05Z mdhughes: Last commit was 12 days ago.
2020-12-02T10:09:11Z mdhughes: https://github.com/cisco/chezscheme
2020-12-02T10:13:41Z amirouche: yeah, it is active, last release a couple of month ago, but it is still missing essential libraries (socket, HTTP, TLS, HTML, PostgreSQL...)
2020-12-02T10:14:10Z amirouche: It doesn't not mean you can not do something with it, but it much more painful than using chickend AFAIU
2020-12-02T10:15:47Z mdhughes: It has a nice enough FFI, anything in C is easy enough to glue in.
2020-12-02T10:17:12Z amirouche: yes, I agree, but that is not what OP wants I guess.
2020-12-02T10:17:41Z mdhughes: And CGI is really easy and much more secure than reimplementing HTTPS.
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2020-12-02T10:18:23Z wasamasa: srandon111: if your impression of CHICKEN is that it's 5% complete, then I'm glad to not have you over at #chicken or any scheme channel for that matter :>
2020-12-02T10:18:35Z wasamasa: srandon111: so thank you for that
2020-12-02T10:18:44Z wasamasa: srandon111: use a popular language instead
2020-12-02T10:18:59Z mdhughes: No, he's referring to the book, which is "5% complete"
2020-12-02T10:20:16Z wasamasa: writing books is hard
2020-12-02T10:20:18Z mdhughes: I have an outline & notes for my own Scheme for software engineering, and a basic tutorial book, but this has not been a productive year for writing.
2020-12-02T10:21:46Z tatsumaru: hey guys, I often order hard copy books from amazon and often times the books are not dispatched by amazon but by vendors that only use amazon to get exposure. so if I order 3 books from 3 different vendors I will get 3 separate deliveries and will have to pay more delivery fees and also spend more time talking to delivery people. however if I pick the same vendor (when that vendor has all the books I need) then all the books will be gro
2020-12-02T10:21:46Z tatsumaru: uped in one and it will more efficient. additionally there's the option to choose from new and used and i prefer to buy used whenever possible because very often they are in mint condition for half the price. so the reason I am writing all this is because I am wondering if it's possible to write a script that can do all this for me - group all the books I want to buy in the least amount of vendors while optimizing for the lowest price to
2020-12-02T10:21:46Z tatsumaru: o. how hard would it be to write something like that for a noob programmer?
2020-12-02T10:22:18Z wasamasa: amazon is like google and doesn't like to make scraping easy on you
2020-12-02T10:22:49Z wasamasa: or rather, using their APIs without permission
2020-12-02T10:22:55Z wasamasa: but it has been done, there are bots
2020-12-02T10:23:02Z wasamasa: just expect it to be painful
2020-12-02T10:24:27Z amirouche: +1
2020-12-02T10:24:50Z tatsumaru: hmm, ideally I don't want to use amazon at all because Jeff is an evil warlord, I am wondering if I can somehow make my own bot that searches several bigger book stores in the UK and does the same.
2020-12-02T10:25:15Z mdhughes: View source on any 'zon page. Some of the structure is very regular, they use a templating system. But the content in those template cells is hand-pasted into the DB, so it can be anything.
2020-12-02T10:25:17Z amirouche: it is a long way to go, I guess but doable.
2020-12-02T10:25:20Z wasamasa: that could work, but chances are you'll find one or two doing the job and no longer need a meta-engine
2020-12-02T10:25:52Z wasamasa: depends how specialized your book needs are
2020-12-02T10:26:14Z tatsumaru: wasamasa at the moment not very specialized just business bestsellers
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2020-12-02T10:26:55Z amirouche: you'd rather find a big shop in UK and use that.
2020-12-02T10:27:18Z amirouche: libraries can command books they do not have readily available.
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2020-12-02T11:12:39Z amirouche: srandon111: how do you plan to proceed? did you find an answer to your question?
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2020-12-02T12:05:37Z srandon111: wasamasa, i thought i had filtered you
2020-12-02T12:06:01Z srandon111: amirouche, i did not decide i am exporing chicken docs
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2020-12-02T12:08:11Z srandon111: amirouche, at the moment i think i will take some time to explore implementations and existing libraries... until now i used racket and i am happy with it... but would like to try some real scheme
2020-12-02T12:08:23Z srandon111: just for curiosity and try to implement something with that
2020-12-02T12:08:55Z srandon111: wasamasa, anyway i did not understand your 5% comment ...
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2020-12-02T12:11:58Z wasamasa: me neither
2020-12-02T12:12:21Z srandon111: wasamasa, well good i would say
2020-12-02T12:12:23Z amirouche: srandon111: what OS do you use?
2020-12-02T12:12:24Z wasamasa: it was unclear to me it was about a book
2020-12-02T12:12:38Z srandon111: amirouche, i am on GNU/Linux, an arch distribution
2020-12-02T12:12:59Z srandon111: wasamasa, oh ok no worries
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2020-12-02T12:19:42Z wasamasa: so there's no exact goal?
2020-12-02T12:20:42Z amirouche: hence the requirement for a "general purpose scheme"
2020-12-02T12:20:48Z srandon111: wasamasa, i am exploring lisp and scheme in my free time, so i don't have an exact goal in mind, It's just something that i am doing as a learning experience, and I am not using these tools at work
2020-12-02T12:20:58Z wasamasa: if you're used to racket having everything, well, I have bad news for you
2020-12-02T12:21:11Z srandon111: i started my exploration few months ago... when i started SICP
2020-12-02T12:21:54Z srandon111: and i got fascinated by it... i tried clojure (i know it is not a scheme) but i didn't like the startup times required especially ini my use cases which is mostly developing cli apps
2020-12-02T12:22:06Z srandon111: doing stuff on the network
2020-12-02T12:22:35Z srandon111: (cli apps doing stuff on the network) what a general description for the stuff i like to do... ahahah excuse me for being so general
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2020-12-02T12:24:04Z srandon111: i know there are of course workarounds also with clojure, like graalVM or developing a daemon service to not have long startups when calling a cli app, but it's just that at the end of the day i wanted to explore also the other alternatives
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2020-12-02T12:29:16Z srandon111: thevishy, why?
2020-12-02T12:29:45Z srandon111: thevishy, what's the  purpose of that?
2020-12-02T12:29:56Z aeth: srandon111: it's an IRC command; they forgot the /
2020-12-02T12:30:01Z aeth: happens all of the time
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2020-12-02T13:38:54Z srandon111: aeth, i know what that is... ops i thought it was addressed to me
2020-12-02T13:38:57Z srandon111: my bad
2020-12-02T13:40:18Z aeth: wasamasa: Oh, and if you want an actual 5% complete Scheme, you can look at my Scheme, which, being 5% complete, doesn't run any program yet (but it reads most of them!) :-p
2020-12-02T13:41:00Z amirouche: great tag line "airship: the scheme than can read scheme program and that is it"
2020-12-02T13:41:10Z aeth: oh, but it reads them well
2020-12-02T13:42:30Z aeth: More seriously, though... once it's done, it should be able to run practically any (* code-walking macros will probably break any kind of potential wrapper) library that Common Lisp has, immediately making it the Scheme with the most available libraries.
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2020-12-02T13:43:28Z aeth: Idiomatically is another story, since Common Lispers like to use this weird foo-p or foop convention instead of foo? for their names. More idiomatic than wrapped C, though.
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2020-12-02T13:51:17Z wasamasa: airship scheme: an empty hull
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2020-12-02T14:32:54Z edgar-rft directs airship scheme to Lakehurst
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2020-12-02T14:49:44Z amirouche: it is not worse than yet-another-failed-attempt-conquer-the-world ;)
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2020-12-02T17:38:15Z duncanm: morning morning
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2020-12-02T19:41:04Z mdhughes: srandon111: Startup speed is one of the main things that pushed me to Chez; even large scripts launch <1s and run at native speed. CHICKEN's csi launches fast but doing FFI with that is annoying (have to build a dylib), and csc compiler takes forever to grind out a fast binary.
2020-12-02T19:41:33Z mdhughes: And csi runs at 10% of the speed of binary at best.
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2020-12-02T19:45:10Z wasamasa: it's kind of disappointing how much faster compiles get when you swap out gcc for tcc
2020-12-02T19:45:44Z mdhughes: clang should be faster than gcc, too. Depending on hardware it might not optimize as well.
2020-12-02T19:48:29Z mdhughes: But I think csc (or any other Scheme->C->binary) is always going to be too annoying for interactively writing large programs.
2020-12-02T19:49:35Z wasamasa: it's a batch compiler ultimately
2020-12-02T19:49:36Z mdhughes: If I was in a corporate environment, writing a feature for a few hours, then a minutes-to-hours build is probably fine. But solo? Ugh.
2020-12-02T19:50:06Z wasamasa: still less annoying than clojure's startup times :P
2020-12-02T19:50:12Z wasamasa: or rather, leiningen
2020-12-02T19:50:34Z mdhughes: There's some new REPL for clojure, I haven't tried it yet but MacPorts told me about it.
2020-12-02T19:52:43Z mdhughes: % /opt/local/bin/clj
2020-12-02T19:52:43Z mdhughes: Please install rlwrap for command editing or use "clojure" instead.
2020-12-02T19:52:54Z mdhughes: ...
2020-12-02T19:53:23Z mdhughes: I already have an alias 'clj' to switch to my CodeClojure folder. Have to remove that.
2020-12-02T19:54:44Z mdhughes: clj first run had to download some "pom", which I take to be a French insult for English.
2020-12-02T19:54:54Z mdhughes: Second run took only 3s to prompt!
2020-12-02T19:56:14Z mdhughes: lein takes 5-11s.
2020-12-02T19:58:00Z mdhughes: I don't remember any clojure now. It's only been a year or so! I have some project I made, full of stupid autogenerated stuff. Did I write any code in there? I dunno!
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2020-12-02T20:12:29Z wasamasa: rudybot: pom de merde
2020-12-02T20:12:30Z rudybot: wasamasa: merde
2020-12-02T20:20:24Z bsima: what's the scheme-idiomatic way to do tagged unions?
2020-12-02T20:20:49Z bsima: like in haskell: 'data Thing = A | B Int | C String'
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2020-12-02T20:21:19Z Zipheir: A record type, most likely.
2020-12-02T20:21:56Z Zipheir: If it's really only ever going to hold one value plus a tag, a pair would work just as well.
2020-12-02T20:22:11Z siraben: bsima: `define-record-type`
2020-12-02T20:22:28Z siraben: SICP conses with a symbol to tag
2020-12-02T20:22:41Z Riastradh: bsima: Typical approaches: 1. a record type for every member of the union (since in Scheme the `object' type is essentially a giant tagged union), 2. a symbol for the ones that don't have fields, 3. some kind of `define-enumeration' constant, 4. a list whose car is a symbol, with some pattern-matching macro.
2020-12-02T20:22:59Z mdhughes: I'd just use an alist. '((a 1) (b 2) (c "foo"))
2020-12-02T20:23:17Z Riastradh: mdhughes: How is that a way to do tagged unionS?
2020-12-02T20:23:21Z bsima: yeah my first thought would be to abuse an a-lists like ((a . null) (b . int) (c . string))
2020-12-02T20:23:40Z bsima: that would just be the schema of the return value
2020-12-02T20:23:52Z bsima: any receiveing function would have to pattern match on those possibilities somehow
2020-12-02T20:24:03Z mdhughes: You can just put any random stuff in an alist, you don't have the typing.
2020-12-02T20:24:33Z Zipheir: The nice thing about define-record-type is that the constructor is the only way to create values of the type, which is guaranteed disjoint from other Scheme types.  The downside is you can't portably pattern-match records.
2020-12-02T20:24:50Z mdhughes: But use different keys for each type-field, so you don't have to (cond) the results every time.
2020-12-02T20:25:02Z Zipheir: If you're using matching, I'd suggest the pair implementation.
2020-12-02T20:25:08Z Riastradh: bsima: Here's an example: In MIT Scheme's compiler, there are informal tagged unions for RTL statements and RTL expressions, which are represented internally by lists and symbols.  The machine code generator is implemented by pattern rules like these: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/compiler/machines/aarch64/rulfix.scm
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2020-12-02T21:05:21Z mdhughes sure likes it when someone dumps 929 lines of irrelevant code to "illustrate" some point.
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2020-12-02T21:08:57Z imode: was the point "I'm going to spam you into not responding"?
2020-12-02T21:13:21Z amirouche: from an outside look it seemed like the most complete response, I did not click, tho.
2020-12-02T21:13:51Z amirouche: people that are always right are sometime irratating.
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2020-12-02T21:20:08Z mdhughes: Oh, it's totally worth looking at. Did you know in Scheme you can use macros to deduplicate redundant code? Well, this is the before picture.
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2020-12-02T21:41:48Z Zipheir: imode: Spam is usually defined to be unsolicited messages.  Short questions here often prompt many replies, some long.  Nothing weird about that.
2020-12-02T21:47:18Z jcowan: mdhughes: csc is actually fast: it's gcc that's slow.  Try using clang instead.
2020-12-02T21:47:37Z aeth: there are several implementations of C in Common Lisp
2020-12-02T21:47:49Z aeth: use one of those and beat me to my own Scheme plans
2020-12-02T22:19:04Z mdhughes: I just checked, I am using clang with csc. gcc takes about 10% longer on medium-sized projects, so the build's still mostly csc-bounded.
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2020-12-03T09:54:38Z amirouche: hello #scheme :)
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2020-12-03T10:16:18Z DKordic: Greetings amirouche.
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2020-12-03T14:29:26Z mdhughes waves but hasn't had coffee in a while.
2020-12-03T14:34:39Z edgar-rft: that's good because waving with coffee in your hands has unpredictable results
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2020-12-03T14:53:41Z gwatt: edgar-rft: I dunno, I predictably get coffee everywhere if I do that.
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2020-12-03T15:31:34Z jcowan does modafinil instead, which can be waved about with impunity
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2020-12-03T15:46:28Z amirouche: Seems like I would need something like modafinil.. coffee is not working.
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2020-12-03T16:42:13Z amirouche: jcowan: did you attend to wasm meeting?
2020-12-03T16:42:47Z jcowan: Didn't have a chance to do so
2020-12-03T16:45:42Z amirouche: I completly forgot about it. I tried went to Paris to buy the second edition of LiSP, the "shop" was closed and it is gallery.
2020-12-03T16:46:52Z amirouche: Since their website is suspicious (TLS error), I am forced to buy at amazon.
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2020-12-03T17:02:28Z wasamasa: somewhere I've read in Japan they use meth when caffeine isn't enough
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2020-12-03T17:05:24Z amirouche: In my case, it is mostly a motivation problem. Grinding through code without purpose I still can. The problem is to find a purpose.
2020-12-03T17:05:30Z wasamasa: a more fun thing I've spotted is an advertisement by Timothy Leary luring people into learning whether LSD will spoil the taste of coffee
2020-12-03T17:05:53Z amirouche: yeah I read that about micro dosed LSD to help with focus.
2020-12-03T17:06:52Z wasamasa: rudybot: if anything, it's coffee spoiling the taste of LSD
2020-12-03T17:07:20Z rudybot: wasamasa: but now I can't ask you about movies X, Y, Z for risk of spoiling them.
2020-12-03T17:07:48Z amirouche: rudybot: what about purpose?
2020-12-03T17:07:54Z rudybot: amirouche: What's so horrible about it?  I admit it's not general purpose.
2020-12-03T17:08:48Z wasamasa: programming started being more enjoyable as soon as I stopped making a living from it
2020-12-03T17:09:26Z wasamasa: but purpose, hm
2020-12-03T17:09:34Z wasamasa: it's not like plants need a purpose to grow
2020-12-03T17:13:31Z mdhughes: 3:45 Cocaine https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/33487/hunter-s-thompsons-daily-routine
2020-12-03T17:13:46Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-03T17:13:57Z wasamasa: surely just for pain killing purposes, right
2020-12-03T17:14:23Z wasamasa: "grass to take the edge off", I guess not
2020-12-03T17:14:47Z mdhughes: Back in the day, I wasn't into it but I knew a lot of programmers who were. Grass and Chivas would be more for writing.
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2020-12-03T17:20:53Z amirouche: I would love to stop doing programming as living, but what else would I do to be able to survive?
2020-12-03T17:23:25Z mdhughes: I write a little code for other people to make money, live halfway up a mountain where it's cheap, then mostly code for fun.
2020-12-03T17:26:27Z mdhughes: All my old work money and side hustles I drank or otherwise pissed away.
2020-12-03T17:26:33Z wasamasa: I found testing to not be too bad
2020-12-03T17:26:46Z wasamasa: and since you can program, you can write tools to automate the boring parts
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2020-12-03T17:27:41Z wasamasa: the most inspiring tester I know of is the jepsen one, they've recently published a paper on making their tools even more powerful
2020-12-03T17:28:06Z wasamasa: but there's of course all the 1337 h4xx0rz inspiring me to do a better job with regards to security testing
2020-12-03T17:28:17Z mdhughes: I like writing tests for my own code, but for Other Peoples' Code, where you can't even go fix it? That'd be hell for me.
2020-12-03T17:29:03Z wasamasa: it's not so much about writing tests for them, but testing the shit out of them and handing them a report what's left to be fixed
2020-12-03T17:29:03Z mdhughes: I really mean this: https://appdot.net/@mdhughes/104489984708298096
2020-12-03T17:29:24Z wasamasa: I'm not bad at finding bugs
2020-12-03T17:29:29Z mdhughes: Yeah, but if it's not a repeatable software test, it doesn't exist. "Can't reproduce, wontfix"
2020-12-03T17:29:55Z wasamasa: my tests tend to be of the "Visit this URL and see unspeakable horrors"
2020-12-03T17:29:56Z wasamasa: kind
2020-12-03T17:30:17Z wasamasa: and these interactions are recorded for documentation, so yeah
2020-12-03T17:31:12Z wasamasa: but then I sometimes get the feeling nobody gives a damn about all but a handful of bugs
2020-12-03T17:31:21Z wasamasa: ancient jquery version? GTFO
2020-12-03T17:33:58Z Zipheir: Tests are fine, but a poor substitute for proofs.
2020-12-03T17:34:12Z mdhughes: The only proof I like is 80.
2020-12-03T17:35:03Z wasamasa: indeed, I suspect this whole software engineering thing will only advance once we can actually have reliability and correctness proofs as standard tool
2020-12-03T17:35:10Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> mdhughs - cute.
2020-12-03T17:35:24Z wasamasa: is that a discord bridging bot?
2020-12-03T17:35:36Z wasamasa: yes it is
2020-12-03T17:35:41Z wasamasa: who's on the other side?
2020-12-03T17:35:59Z gwatt: probably the scheme discord someone was advertising a few months back?
2020-12-03T17:36:10Z wasamasa: I totally forgot that happened
2020-12-03T17:36:22Z mdhughes: I like all the letters in my name.
2020-12-03T17:36:26Z wasamasa: sounds like a recipe to failure :D
2020-12-03T17:36:27Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> wasamasa - yes it is. This is a discord channel 'scheme-irc'
2020-12-03T17:36:47Z Zipheir: Well, someone's using it.
2020-12-03T17:37:19Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> sorry mdhughes.  I had to type all of them, because the discord+irc interfaces doesn't do name-completion.
2020-12-03T17:37:23Z Zipheir: Apparently it's the 1532th user named "Dave Whitten".
2020-12-03T17:38:01Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> Of course, if it had scheme as a configuration language, it should be pretty easy to provide name-completion.
2020-12-03T17:38:02Z mdhughes: I used to mock the name+number people, but turns out Twitter, Discord, Battle.net, bunch of others add those automatically, and it's very hard/impossible to remove them.
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2020-12-03T17:38:12Z Zipheir: Who needs name-completion, anyway?
2020-12-03T17:38:41Z wasamasa: is that the one? https://discord.com/invite/ZcTYrdx
2020-12-03T17:38:46Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> I don't know why, but all user accounts on discord are names plus an arbitrary number.
2020-12-03T17:38:58Z wasamasa: or this one: https://discord.com/invite/qykVk5q
2020-12-03T17:39:49Z wasamasa: rudybot: at least it works better than the matrix bridge, amirite
2020-12-03T17:39:53Z rudybot: wasamasa: amirite?
2020-12-03T17:40:52Z Zipheir: Doesn't Matrix just bridge individual users?
2020-12-03T17:41:15Z Zipheir: Hence the <name>[m] crowd that joins/parts en masse every day or so.
2020-12-03T17:41:50Z wasamasa: all I know is that it does things so inefficiently it angers #freenode staff greatly
2020-12-03T17:41:58Z wasamasa: and that most channels will give them the boot
2020-12-03T17:43:05Z Zipheir: There are a few channels I won't name in which almost everyone is connecting via some bridge.  It's a disaster, especially for moderation--how do you kick/ban a disruptive user?
2020-12-03T17:43:29Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> The bot I'm implicitly using gets #freenode admins angry ?
2020-12-03T17:43:29Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> or the Matrix bot ?
2020-12-03T17:43:29Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> or the rubybot ?
2020-12-03T17:43:33Z Zipheir: Basically by kicking a bridge bot, thus silencing a whole crowd.
2020-12-03T17:43:54Z Zipheir: I think wasamasa meant the matrix bots, but I'm not sure.
2020-12-03T17:43:58Z wasamasa: correct
2020-12-03T17:44:08Z wasamasa: you have massive netsplits when they act up
2020-12-03T17:44:40Z mdhughes: ignore isn't a problem, that's just regex. But it's annoying not to see who's in the room.
2020-12-03T17:44:40Z wasamasa: I'd ask on #freenode regarding moderation, they have experience with other services doing that
2020-12-03T17:46:04Z Zipheir: Yeah, they've probably worked out someway to do it.
2020-12-03T17:46:33Z wasamasa: basically, you'd have a service-specific cloak you can match on
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2020-12-03T17:49:27Z wasamasa: hm, I'm not convinced either is the correct channel
2020-12-03T17:49:33Z wasamasa: *discord server
2020-12-03T17:50:10Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> Thanks for the link to the Scheme Discord channels.
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2020-12-03T17:50:27Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-03T17:50:28Z amirouche: [d]: is not scheme discord
2020-12-03T17:50:34Z wasamasa: so which one is it?
2020-12-03T17:50:35Z amirouche: it is another discord about AI
2020-12-03T17:50:39Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-03T17:50:43Z wasamasa: the one lisp meme
2020-12-03T17:50:48Z amirouche: ;)
2020-12-03T17:51:08Z wasamasa: one day I'll port M-x doctor to guile's elisp subset
2020-12-03T17:51:19Z wasamasa: and then loudly claim that's as far as lisp AI will get
2020-12-03T17:51:45Z Zipheir: The doctor program was an amazingly successful AI in its day.
2020-12-03T17:52:36Z wasamasa: people had less expectations about those clunky machines
2020-12-03T17:52:43Z Zipheir: Plenty of not-too-sharp psychologists believed it was a serious attempt at automated therapy.
2020-12-03T17:52:45Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> heh.  Do you know if the bot that emulates a  psychotic person has been released as open source ? All I can remember is that the name stared with 'R'
2020-12-03T17:53:14Z wasamasa: I also remember finding a C64 lisp version of it
2020-12-03T17:53:26Z wasamasa: and ported it back to elisp to help out someone on ##lisp or so
2020-12-03T17:56:18Z Zipheir: "I was startled to see how quickly and how very deeply people conversing with DOCTOR became emotionally involved with the computer... Once my secretary ... started conversing with it. After only a few interchanges with it, she asked me to leave the room." (Joseph Weizenbaum, _Computer Power and Human Reason_)
2020-12-03T17:58:45Z wasamasa: the eliza game tries hard to accomplish that, but hm
2020-12-03T17:58:53Z wasamasa: I enjoyed their solitaire minigame more :>
2020-12-03T18:00:40Z mdhughes: I think PARRY or something like that is the schizophrenic.
2020-12-03T18:01:36Z mdhughes: I was just watching an old Nova special on AI on OldTimeyComputerShow last night. The skeptics seem to believe/say that Humans have some magical ability that isn't just pattern matching.
2020-12-03T18:02:21Z Zipheir: Incidentally, that book, Computer Power and Human Reason, is one of the most intense books nominally on computer science I've ever read.  "Anyone interested in computers should read it." (Doug Hofstader)
2020-12-03T18:02:29Z mdhughes: And yet all they could do was repeat patterns they'd already said, there was no evidence of even as much logical thought as our dumb text-manipulation AIs do.
2020-12-03T18:03:11Z mdhughes: They had McCarthy on, and his hair and beard were *magnificent*. Man must've spent hours in the salon for that coiffure.
2020-12-03T18:04:24Z mdhughes: This is the video: https://archive.org/details/themindmachines
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2020-12-03T20:53:48Z tatsumaru: hey guys
2020-12-03T20:56:49Z tatsumaru: I was curious, if a startup decided to build a large project from scratch and implement it in some scheme implementation including all the libraries etc and that startup became a large company employing at least 1000 employees would that be enough to create more traction for that scheme and also would it present an advantage for that company to use that scheme in the long term (if we ignore the short term issues of having to write your o
2020-12-03T20:56:49Z tatsumaru: wn libraries)
2020-12-03T20:58:42Z wasamasa: well, take a look at what haskell/ocaml companies accomplished and extrapolate
2020-12-03T20:59:10Z wasamasa: https://github.com/janestreet/
2020-12-03T20:59:47Z aeth: tatsumaru: startups generally don't do anything that's technically innovative anymore
2020-12-03T20:59:56Z wasamasa: and ask yourself what happens once they're gone
2020-12-03T21:00:10Z wasamasa: remember, startups like betting on the chance they're bought before they die
2020-12-03T21:00:39Z wasamasa: AKA becoming unicorns
2020-12-03T21:01:10Z aeth: The first US unicorn on this list that's actually tech (in the computer sense, SpaceX absolutely works with technology, just not "tech") is Epic, a video game engine company that's the 6th American one down the list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unicorn_startup_companies
2020-12-03T21:01:44Z aeth: very few are pure tech
2020-12-03T21:02:01Z wasamasa: consider the ratio of Epic vs non-Epic though
2020-12-03T21:02:10Z wasamasa: what are the odds
2020-12-03T21:02:14Z aeth: e.g. #3 is JUUL Labs, which is basically just selling cigarettes to children
2020-12-03T21:02:31Z aeth: #4 is Airbnb, they could just use a PHP stack from 2003
2020-12-03T21:02:42Z aeth: and so on
2020-12-03T21:03:11Z wasamasa: airbnb's greatest contribution is coming up with a JS styleguide
2020-12-03T21:03:14Z tatsumaru: I agree that the startup sphere is becoming somewhat of a bubble nowadays, when I say startup I am referring to something meaningful
2020-12-03T21:03:32Z tatsumaru: like Stripe for example
2020-12-03T21:03:49Z wasamasa: again, look at what value they've provided to the ecosystems
2020-12-03T21:04:40Z aeth: tatsumaru: quite a few of the US tech unicorns are in some sense finance, e.g. Stripe, Robinhood, Coinbase...
2020-12-03T21:04:51Z aeth: that's more about battling regulations than tech innovation, though
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2020-12-03T21:06:51Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: What exactly is the question, without the coating of business-flavored language?
2020-12-03T21:07:20Z wasamasa: looking through their nonforks on github there's little more than tools/libraries for working with stripe
2020-12-03T21:07:24Z Zipheir: Scheme + business = Good Thing?
2020-12-03T21:07:26Z wasamasa: janestreet is a lot better example
2020-12-03T21:07:40Z aeth: Zipheir: as long as you don't use Ponzi Scheme
2020-12-03T21:07:40Z tatsumaru: Zipheir , yes but + in the long term
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2020-12-03T21:08:27Z Zipheir: What's the long-term these days?  We all seem to be looking about n weeks ahead max this year.
2020-12-03T21:08:38Z tatsumaru: Zipheir let's say 10y
2020-12-03T21:08:46Z Zipheir: (Where n is however long mass vaccine distribution takes to get started.)
2020-12-03T21:08:48Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-03T21:08:57Z aeth: tatsumaru: I don't think that the tech stack is the important part for most major startups... so they could use Scheme and not really lose anything, but they don't really gain much by using it, either.
2020-12-03T21:09:14Z tatsumaru: aeth: I am surprised no one came with a Ponzi Scheme implementation
2020-12-03T21:09:16Z wasamasa: if you want sustainable and 10 years, look at emacs
2020-12-03T21:09:31Z gwatt: aeth: I'd argue you would lose libraries
2020-12-03T21:09:36Z wasamasa: yes, lots of boring work and politics
2020-12-03T21:09:39Z wasamasa: but it's still around
2020-12-03T21:09:47Z aeth: tatsumaru: Ponzi Scheme does exist, it's just unsearchable... I'm pretty sure someone made it for the Ethereum Virtual Machine
2020-12-03T21:09:53Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: Scheme code tends to be long-lived.  There are Scheme libraries from 25 years ago which run without modification on modern Schemes.
2020-12-03T21:09:56Z wasamasa: https://github.com/MichaelBurge/pyramid-scheme
2020-12-03T21:10:05Z gwatt: aeth: I thought that was pyramid scheme
2020-12-03T21:10:13Z aeth: gwatt: it might have been
2020-12-03T21:10:14Z aeth: my bad
2020-12-03T21:10:21Z wasamasa: archived :<
2020-12-03T21:10:29Z gwatt: oh, wasamasa posted a link before I even said anything
2020-12-03T21:10:30Z aeth: gwatt: both are good names
2020-12-03T21:10:34Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: So a codebase you create for your project today will likely be usable 10 years from now.
2020-12-03T21:10:34Z wasamasa: I guess the joke eventually went stale
2020-12-03T21:10:48Z wasamasa: yes, it's an interesting lisp property
2020-12-03T21:10:55Z wasamasa: it's closer to C than JS in that regard
2020-12-03T21:11:08Z aeth: Zipheir: Scheme libraries from 25 years ago? The 80s? Really? That sounds hard to believe... Oh. Nevermind. :-p
2020-12-03T21:11:19Z wasamasa: there's plenty old projects worth getting running again
2020-12-03T21:11:21Z tatsumaru: wasamasa what do you attribute emacs' durability to
2020-12-03T21:11:46Z wasamasa: the core developers being a stubborn bunch
2020-12-03T21:12:03Z wasamasa: they reject modernity unless someone bashes it into their heads
2020-12-03T21:12:08Z wasamasa: and even then they still do
2020-12-03T21:12:41Z Zipheir: aeth: Catch up! :)
2020-12-03T21:12:42Z tatsumaru: that being said, emacs is a non-profit project so it's probably more of an idealistic thing rather than a goal-oriented one
2020-12-03T21:12:56Z wasamasa: the git migration thing was a thankless job and guess what, they're still bickering how much git sucks compared to bzr
2020-12-03T21:12:57Z Zipheir: s/goal/profit/ ?
2020-12-03T21:13:08Z tatsumaru: not necessarily
2020-12-03T21:13:29Z Zipheir: Emacs has a clear goal: Do Everything.
2020-12-03T21:13:34Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-03T21:13:39Z Zipheir: Er, be a Lisp Machine.
2020-12-03T21:13:51Z tatsumaru: goal = having some sort of vision and working to make it a reality as opposed to maintaining something so it doesn't disappear
2020-12-03T21:14:13Z Zipheir: And Emacs is in the latter category?
2020-12-03T21:14:16Z wasamasa: here's an example for scheme code from 25 years ago: https://github.com/ProgrammerArchaeology/ezd/
2020-12-03T21:14:33Z wasamasa: written for scheme2c, ported a bunch of times
2020-12-03T21:14:40Z Zipheir: It does seem like they're constantly adding more features to Emacs.  I wouldn't call that "just maintenance".
2020-12-03T21:14:47Z tatsumaru: Zipheir, I could be wrong but I think it's not evolving a lot.
2020-12-03T21:14:51Z aeth: wasamasa: latest commit "Remove DECstation stuff from build." So it'll run from 25 years ago, just not on your DECstation
2020-12-03T21:14:52Z wasamasa: here's another port: https://www.upyum.com/cgit.cgi/ezd/
2020-12-03T21:14:59Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: I'd agree with that.
2020-12-03T21:15:30Z Zipheir: Wow, that's quite a program.
2020-12-03T21:15:44Z wasamasa: the paper is very cool
2020-12-03T21:15:53Z Zipheir: lol: https://github.com/ProgrammerArchaeology/ezd/blob/master/match.sc
2020-12-03T21:16:38Z Zipheir: Since it's for X (which also changes slowly), it might work with some porting.
2020-12-03T21:16:55Z wasamasa: I remember helping out someone on a lisp channel porting an eliza implementation written on a c64 lisp to elisp
2020-12-03T21:16:57Z wasamasa: that was fun
2020-12-03T21:17:59Z tatsumaru: aeth: why do you say that tech stack doesn't matter for startups? aren't different languages supposed to have their own pros/cons etc?
2020-12-03T21:19:36Z Zipheir: Does it matter whether the people in your project speak English, Chinese, or Russian?
2020-12-03T21:20:17Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-03T21:20:19Z tatsumaru: If they can use less words to communicate in one of the languages then yeah
2020-12-03T21:20:21Z Zipheir: Ideally, you want a language which allows you to express your ideas clearly and which enables you to control the complexity of your own creations.  Everything else is sugar.
2020-12-03T21:20:50Z tatsumaru: Sanskrit for example has many concepts that don't exist in modern languages.
2020-12-03T21:21:26Z Zipheir: Scheme has concepts that some programming languages are just catching up with.
2020-12-03T21:21:37Z tatsumaru: So maybe I should look for sanskrit-speaking scheme developers for my startup
2020-12-03T21:21:53Z Zipheir: They'll probably be really good.
2020-12-03T21:22:33Z Zipheir: But the Curse of Lisp suggests you'll have to be good at cat-herding.
2020-12-03T21:23:08Z tatsumaru: So does that mean that one chooses to program in Scheme just because?
2020-12-03T21:23:45Z wasamasa: sure, you can do it because you have scheme programmers at hand
2020-12-03T21:23:59Z Zipheir: I think Scheme is pretty expressive language.  You can write things without redundant detail, mostly.  That's a Good Thing.
2020-12-03T21:24:29Z wasamasa: I dunno, sometimes I wish for more expressive than academic APIs
2020-12-03T21:25:10Z gwatt: I think a large part of the Curse of Lisp is that lisps attract people who don't value working with others.
2020-12-03T21:26:32Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: Some people (e.g. the Land of Lisp author, and many other lispers) claim that Lisps are inherently easier to keep bug-free.
2020-12-03T21:26:41Z wasamasa: like not having to define a dynamic-wind that actually executes the after forms on exceptions
2020-12-03T21:27:26Z Zipheir: Easier than C and its descendents, perhaps, but the claim is a bit oversold.
2020-12-03T21:27:33Z gwatt: wasamasa: isn't that what guard is for?
2020-12-03T21:27:36Z wasamasa: which hasn't been specified in R5RS for obvious reasons, no idea about R7RS though
2020-12-03T21:27:44Z Zipheir: guard is in R7.
2020-12-03T21:27:46Z wasamasa: guard isn't part of dynamic-wind
2020-12-03T21:27:50Z Zipheir: No.
2020-12-03T21:28:01Z Riastradh: Zipheir: *ksnrk*
2020-12-03T21:28:21Z Riastradh: (`Lisps are inherently easier to keep bug-free')
2020-12-03T21:28:26Z Zipheir: Stiffled laugh, or infuriated twitch?
2020-12-03T21:28:31Z Zipheir: Stifled, even.
2020-12-03T21:28:34Z wasamasa: I like how concise my ruby scripts are, but the occasional mutation bug is maddening
2020-12-03T21:28:39Z Riastradh: snorted laugh
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2020-12-03T21:28:56Z wasamasa: scheme feels super verbose in comparison and on the occasion I do need mutation things can get even more convoluted
2020-12-03T21:28:59Z mdhughes: I don't find I'm any less buggy in Scheme than any other language. Which is why I needed scheme-test-unit.
2020-12-03T21:29:02Z Zipheir: Riatradh: Hey, "some say"...
2020-12-03T21:29:35Z Zipheir: I think it's an unfortunate if endearing line from many obscure programming language communities--"we can solve the software crisis!  Please try us!"
2020-12-03T21:29:41Z mdhughes: But it's about as fast to code in as Python or Javascript, and runs faster in good impls, so it's been a good tradeoff.
2020-12-03T21:29:51Z gwatt: "I personally find it easier to avoid writing bugs in languages with which I am intimately familiar."
2020-12-03T21:30:42Z mdhughes: Well, I do make more bugs in C or ASM than anything else. That's a bad impl language unless you absolutely need it.
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2020-12-03T21:30:57Z wasamasa: the battle of aethnoth
2020-12-03T21:32:37Z Zipheir: Hey aeth, when are we getting an Airship Scheme port of Wesnoth?
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2020-12-03T21:35:20Z amirouche: good idea ;)
2020-12-03T21:35:39Z wasamasa: it will be the ultimate scheme benchmark
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2020-12-03T21:37:57Z gwatt: I should play more of that. I always get stuck on one the campaigns.
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2020-12-03T21:40:47Z Zipheir: A Scheme version with low-end graphics probably wouldn't be a massive project, all things considered.
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2020-12-03T21:48:23Z gwatt: Zipheir: Do you consider the current wesnoth to have high-end graphics?
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2020-12-03T21:53:56Z Zipheir: The art and animations are pretty nice, and there have been some fancy additions in terms of cosmetic animations.  But obviously it's very low-end by current commercial measures.
2020-12-03T21:54:23Z Zipheir: But when I say "low-end" I mean a curses front-end or some such.
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2020-12-03T21:57:57Z aeth: Zipheir: only lighting
2020-12-03T21:58:06Z amirouche: tatsumaru: it is difficult to say that there will be less bugs with Scheme. Sure, thing with Chez Scheme and a certain number of helper libraries, they would be able to tackle more problems and compete in terms of speed.
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2020-12-03T21:58:23Z aeth: the main difference between old 2D and contemporary 2D is lighting techniques which have sort of been "backported" from 3D
2020-12-03T21:58:48Z aeth: a random, commercial tool that shows this sort of thing: http://www.snakehillgames.com/spritelamp/
2020-12-03T21:59:10Z aeth: You can see it with the Factorio lighting update, too: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-363
2020-12-03T21:59:44Z aeth: afaik, though, Factorio "cheats" in the way that a lot of 90s games did, and spritifies 3D models
2020-12-03T22:00:40Z amirouche: factorio is not 3d?
2020-12-03T22:00:45Z amirouche: it looks like
2020-12-03T22:01:01Z Zipheir: aeth: Thanks.  That site has a nice explanation of the technique.
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2020-12-03T22:22:00Z mdhughes: Well, my roguelikes and other games are all plain 2D sprites, I'm not a big fan of the fake-lighting stuff, it's easier to use a few transparencies for darkness if necessary.
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2020-12-03T23:52:36Z tatsumaru: wasamasa maybe you will like elixir
2020-12-03T23:53:20Z tatsumaru: it's expressive and has a lot of immutable features
2020-12-03T23:53:26Z tatsumaru: with a ruby like syntax
2020-12-03T23:55:34Z jcowan: Most of the commits to Chez are to add features Racket needs and to fix bugs never spotted before.
2020-12-03T23:56:41Z jcowan: Someone asked, given what Chez was providing for Racket, what Racket was providing for Chez.  The answer was "Racket".
2020-12-03T23:58:04Z tatsumaru: Shouldn't racket provide for racket itself?
2020-12-03T23:58:18Z jcowan: Well, that's true too.
2020-12-03T23:58:42Z jcowan: (forgot I was scrolled back)
2020-12-04T00:02:46Z tatsumaru: Is bug handling the largest time consumer for developers in software companies?
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2020-12-04T00:07:45Z jcowan: No, customer support is, AFAICT
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2020-12-04T04:24:50Z peanutbutterandc: Hey there, is there some sort of program out there that can generate internal list representation diagrams for scheme lists out there?
2020-12-04T04:25:19Z peanutbutterandc: Just curious. And list-representation diagrams as in SICP, etc. diagrams with boxes and arrows
2020-12-04T04:25:58Z mdhughes: Meetings, then IT nonsense, often HR nonsense. I've never been able to get more than 4 hours per day coding at a tech company.
2020-12-04T04:27:16Z mdhughes: For a while I was successful coming in pre-dawn, getting an extra couple hours in. But then 9-to-5 jerks complained that I was leaving at 14:00, and in one case got me fired for it.
2020-12-04T04:28:31Z mdhughes: Working for myself is so much better. No meetings except a few phone calls to clients (maybe 4 hrs/month). IT's just my system, so not too bad. No HR.
2020-12-04T04:28:57Z Zipheir: Interesting question.  I'm not aware of any tool for that.
2020-12-04T04:29:20Z Zipheir: Like box-and-pointer diagrams, correct?
2020-12-04T04:30:13Z Zipheir: Racket has sdraw, apparently: https://pkgs.racket-lang.org/package/sdraw
2020-12-04T04:30:24Z Zipheir: peanutbutterandc: ^
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2020-12-04T04:40:10Z peanutbutterandc: Zipheir, Yes, box-and-pointer diagrams. I'll check this one out too. Thank you. Is there something more general? I don't really use racket, however.
2020-12-04T04:41:17Z peanutbutterandc: I don't know how one goes about installing racket packages. Do they have a package manager or something? could anybody guide me to the relevant manuals, please? (while I search for them here too) Thanks
2020-12-04T04:42:09Z peanutbutterandc: ooh raco thingy okay
2020-12-04T04:42:42Z Zipheir: That sounds about right.  I haven't used Racket since working on The Little Typer.
2020-12-04T04:43:07Z Zipheir: A portable version would probably be rather easy, if it output something like graphviz or SVG.
2020-12-04T04:43:28Z Zipheir: Sounds like a fun project for Someone™.
2020-12-04T04:44:49Z peanutbutterandc: Yes... I only wish I had the competence to do it myself. Hopefully, after a few more books I'll get there
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2020-12-04T04:52:00Z Zipheir: peanutbutterandc: What are you reading now, SICP?
2020-12-04T04:53:59Z peanutbutterandc: Zipheir, I wish. The Scheme Programming Language. I'm deferring SICP till I first complete the Brian Harvey Lectures, and this book, and maybe a few books on mathematics (high school dropout here) and then SICP...
2020-12-04T04:55:34Z Zipheir: OK.  IME, I found SICP more readable than TSPL, but YMMV.
2020-12-04T04:58:01Z Zipheir: The Little books are also great, with the Little Typer being perhaps the most explicitly math-related.  (Recommended if you're into mathematically-inclined programming books.)
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2020-12-04T04:58:55Z peanutbutterandc: Zipheir, I see... Hmmm. I will note that. Perhaps I should get the Little books too...
2020-12-04T04:59:48Z peanutbutterandc: I did love Simply Scheme. It was a great introduction to scheme. By Prof. Brian Harvey.
2020-12-04T04:59:58Z peanutbutterandc: He loves The Beatles.
2020-12-04T05:00:10Z Zipheir: Samizdat PDFs of the Little books are readily available. ;)
2020-12-04T05:00:24Z Zipheir: Ah, OK.  I forgot he wrote that.
2020-12-04T05:02:24Z Zipheir: Was that for a course, or are you self-teaching?
2020-12-04T05:03:36Z peanutbutterandc: Zipheir, Samizdat? as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samizdat ? Self-teaching. It goes more like a dog chasing his own tail, quite frequently, rather than definite progress, but yes... self-teaching
2020-12-04T05:05:28Z Zipheir: Sounds good!
2020-12-04T05:06:10Z peanutbutterandc: Anyways, thank you for helping me out! Hope you have a great day. (:
2020-12-04T05:06:21Z Zipheir: By "samizdat" I of course don't mean "banned as subversive", just "frowned upon by MIT Press, were they to notice".
2020-12-04T05:06:28Z Zipheir: Of course.  You too.
2020-12-04T05:09:01Z peanutbutterandc: "frowned upon by MIT Press, were they to notice" haha Thanks for this too. Samizdat wikipedia page seems interesting. (:
2020-12-04T05:17:35Z foof: peanutbutterandc: heese? hicken? hili?
2020-12-04T05:18:29Z peanutbutterandc: foof, forgive me, I'm not too well versed in the scheme culture to know what those mean... chicken scheme? o.O I use gnu guile most of the time
2020-12-04T05:19:07Z Zipheir: I thought it was just foof showing off his broken 'c' key...
2020-12-04T05:20:06Z peanutbutterandc: haha so it's an #scheme thing
2020-12-04T05:20:18Z Zipheir: I guess it is now.
2020-12-04T05:20:18Z foof: I was just guessing the completion of peanutbutterandc's name.
2020-12-04T05:20:27Z Zipheir: Heh.
2020-12-04T05:21:02Z peanutbutterandc: foof, Oh, it's peanutbutterandcrackers. https://github.com/peanutbutterandcrackers/ with freenode's name length limit truncating it
2020-12-04T05:27:46Z foof: we should not be shackled by such arbitrary limits.  schemers deserve bignums and bignames!
2020-12-04T05:28:26Z Riastradh: I am not a number; I am a freally long name!
2020-12-04T05:29:27Z peanutbutterandc: What is the scheme equivalent of "amen!"? "I eval that"?
2020-12-04T05:31:03Z foof: maybe #t?
2020-12-04T05:32:04Z peanutbutterandc: #t!
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2020-12-04T19:54:39Z jcowan: We are all numbers, usually extremely large.
2020-12-04T19:55:07Z jcowan: What is a good term for 'the number of values returned by a procedure' corresponding to _arity_ for 'the number of values accepted by a procedure'?
2020-12-04T19:55:44Z gwatt: return arity?
2020-12-04T19:57:20Z jcowan: coarity? result arity?
2020-12-04T19:57:49Z Riastradh: continuarity, obviously
2020-12-04T19:58:11Z Zipheir: I think coarity is the most common term.
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2020-12-04T20:44:16Z amirouche: +1 Riastradh
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2020-12-04T20:46:38Z jcowan: Ah, okay, if it's actually in use that wins.
2020-12-04T20:47:23Z amirouche: google://continuarity yields 615 results, that one of my best score for a word of then length :)
2020-12-04T20:48:58Z Riastradh: (`coarity' is probably a better choice; `continuarity' was just the first portmanteau word of `continuation' and `arity' that popped into my head with a good meter)
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2020-12-04T20:53:51Z madsy: I'm not a beginner to Scheme, but I've never really truly grasped how call/cc works. Does someone here have lessons or articles on call-with-continuation to recommend me?
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2020-12-04T20:56:44Z amirouche: madsy: look into make-coroutine-generator in R7RS scheme generators it use coroutines the two way I know about
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2020-12-04T20:57:01Z amirouche: madsy: what scheme implementation do you rely on?
2020-12-04T20:57:37Z madsy: amirouche: None in particular, but I'm most experienced with GNU Guile
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2020-12-04T21:00:45Z amirouche: madsy: here is the implementation: https://github.com/amirouche/babelia/blob/master/scheme/generator.scm#L126-L135
2020-12-04T21:01:14Z amirouche: madsy: if you are familiar with javascript or python generators, make-coroutine-generator behaves similarly.
2020-12-04T21:04:58Z madsy: thanks :)
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2020-12-04T21:17:51Z Zipheir: That's a pretty knotty way to learn about continuations.  You might look at Reynolds's short essay, "The Discoveries of Continuations": https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/papers-we-love/reynolds-discoveries.pdf  (Beautiful little paper, btw.)
2020-12-04T21:23:35Z Zipheir: madsy: Imagine if, instead of returning a value, every function in Scheme took an additional procedure argument, k, and called k on the value computed by the function.  call/cc in Scheme gives you k.
2020-12-04T21:23:38Z madsy: Zipheir: That paper is golden. Thank you
2020-12-04T21:25:05Z amirouche: Zipheir: that explanation is too complicated, i would prefer to say that (call/cc (lambda (proc) ...)) foobar, will execute foobar expression when PROC is called.
2020-12-04T21:25:36Z amirouche: that less useful explanation in the long run, but it allows to immediatly figure what is the flow of the code.
2020-12-04T21:27:36Z Zipheir: That relies too much on the juxtaposition of the (call/cc ...) and `foobar'.  A continuation isn't a "next statement" operator.  It may take you anywhere.
2020-12-04T21:27:48Z Zipheir: It's a procedure, pure and simple.
2020-12-04T21:31:52Z Zipheir: The original presentation of the idea of a continuation was in the context of CPS as a way to implement procedures, and I still think that's the clearest explanation.  Replace returns with explicit procedure calls, and the complexity of procedure implementations can be made to go away.
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2020-12-04T21:35:23Z Zipheir: (Although the transformation to CPS can, of course, be hairy at times.)
2020-12-04T21:35:25Z Zipheir: http://matt.might.net/articles/cps-conversion/
2020-12-04T21:35:58Z amirouche: yes, CPS conversion is hairy.
2020-12-04T21:37:03Z Riastradh: not really
2020-12-04T21:37:04Z amirouche: I disagree call/cc can not take you anywhere.
2020-12-04T21:37:33Z amirouche: it can only take you next to where call/cc was called.
2020-12-04T21:38:03Z amirouche: (if you return the continuation, and call it later, you come back to that point)
2020-12-04T21:38:36Z amirouche: (also nobody told it, but I had this misconception, call/cc does not rollback the program :)
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2020-12-04T21:38:49Z Zipheir: Nooooo...
2020-12-04T21:38:56Z amirouche: Yes....
2020-12-04T21:39:12Z Riastradh: Here's a simple redex-free CPS converter: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20200209/cps.scm
2020-12-04T21:39:42Z Riastradh: (if it weren't redex-free it'd be half that length too)
2020-12-04T21:40:01Z Zipheir: Nice stuff.
2020-12-04T21:40:19Z Riastradh: amirouche: depends on the order in which you compose the continuation and state monads!
2020-12-04T21:41:21Z Zipheir: This is true.
2020-12-04T21:41:31Z amirouche: Riastradh: hmm, I am not sure to which message you respond. But do you agree that call/cc continuation is the code that follows the call to call/cc?
2020-12-04T21:41:53Z Riastradh: 21:35 < amirouche> yes, CPS conversion is hairy.
2020-12-04T21:41:54Z Riastradh: 21:37 < Riastradh> not really
2020-12-04T21:41:59Z Riastradh: or
2020-12-04T21:42:05Z Riastradh: 21:37 < amirouche> I disagree call/cc can not take you anywhere.
2020-12-04T21:42:05Z Riastradh: 21:37 < amirouche> it can only take you next to where call/cc was called.
2020-12-04T21:42:12Z Riastradh: 21:40 < Riastradh> amirouche: depends on the order in which you compose the continuation and state monads!
2020-12-04T21:42:20Z Riastradh: er
2020-12-04T21:42:26Z Riastradh: I meant:
2020-12-04T21:42:26Z amirouche: yes, you have the same color as Zipheir, I misread.
2020-12-04T21:42:33Z Riastradh: 21:38 < amirouche> (also nobody told it, but I had this misconception, call/cc does not rollback the program :)
2020-12-04T21:42:38Z Riastradh: 21:40 < Riastradh> amirouche: depends on the order in which you compose the continuation and state monads!
2020-12-04T21:42:41Z Riastradh: there we go
2020-12-04T21:43:29Z amirouche: rollback the state is not builin call/cc, you need another mechanism to bring back the state between call/cc and the call of the continuation.
2020-12-04T21:43:54Z amirouche: When I started, I was under the impression that call/cc was some kind of time traveling operation...
2020-12-04T21:44:39Z Riastradh: In a Haskell program, you can easily devise two different monads, in which the same program under one monad will roll back state (`go back in time'), and under another monad will only go to a different part of the program, when you invoke a continuation.
2020-12-04T21:45:32Z Riastradh: The difference looks something like
2020-12-04T21:45:48Z Riastradh: type M a = ContT Value State a
2020-12-04T21:45:49Z Riastradh: versus
2020-12-04T21:45:53Z Riastradh: type M a = StateT Value Cont a
2020-12-04T21:47:09Z Riastradh: Everything else in the program can be exactly the same!
2020-12-04T21:47:39Z amirouche: it depends, if you use globals or mutation, it is not the same.
2020-12-04T21:47:45Z amirouche: I agree it can be the same.
2020-12-04T21:50:52Z amirouche: There is really to cases, I understand about call/cc. A) (define k (call/cc values)) ... B) (call/cc (lambda (return) (return 42) 0)) which returns 42 (instead of 0)
2020-12-04T21:50:58Z amirouche: s/to cases/two cases/
2020-12-04T21:51:10Z amirouche: the A is the most difficult to understand
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2020-12-04T22:09:36Z jcowan: Zipheir: You are conflating an escape procedure as provided by call/cc with the continuation.  The first can indeed take you anywhere.  But the continuation cannot, because you are already there.
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2020-12-04T22:27:23Z Zipheir: Hmm, I suppose so, if we distinguish "the" (i.e. the current) continuation from arbitrary continuations.
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2020-12-05T01:45:53Z mdhughes: call/cc is like a GOTO (JMP in assembly), except it also restores stack state to that point. It's not that complicated.
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2020-12-05T01:46:59Z mdhughes: Except that kids today have probably never coded in a language with GOTO. They need a little harm!
2020-12-05T01:49:30Z jcowan: CALL = RENAME + GOTO is the wisdom of LAMBDA
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2020-12-05T05:42:50Z mdhughes: Speaking of, is there a more obvious/built-in/efficient way to do this: https://paste.debian.net/1175695/
2020-12-05T05:43:09Z mdhughes: (I could put them all in hashtables by each key, but ignoring that)
2020-12-05T05:44:35Z Riastradh: (find (lambda (row) (equal? (cdr (assoc key row)) value)) db)
2020-12-05T05:45:51Z mdhughes: Nice, I don't know how I blanked on `find` existing.
2020-12-05T05:46:20Z mdhughes: Well, mostly I need sets of stuff so `filter` & `map` sit in my brain.
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2020-12-05T09:04:57Z amirouche: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/FOSDEM2021-devroom-declarative-and-minimalistic-computing
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2020-12-05T14:50:07Z tatsumaru: hey guys
2020-12-05T14:50:26Z tatsumaru: has anyone played around with script fu for Gimp? just found out it was a script impl. Is it cool?
2020-12-05T14:50:38Z tatsumaru: s /script/scheme/
2020-12-05T14:51:01Z tatsumaru: hmm that wasn't a good replace...
2020-12-05T14:52:16Z wasamasa: I've found it fun to instead create my own stuff with cairo and sdl2
2020-12-05T14:52:28Z wasamasa: or imlib2 for image processing
2020-12-05T14:53:07Z wasamasa: gimp never struck me as serious option
2020-12-05T14:53:40Z wasamasa: just looking at the documentation with closing parentheses on their own line doesn't suggest it's schemers doing that :P
2020-12-05T14:53:44Z aeth: tatsumaru: scheme fu is a script impl?
2020-12-05T14:53:56Z tatsumaru: very funny
2020-12-05T14:53:57Z wasamasa: script-fu is tinyscheme
2020-12-05T14:54:46Z aeth: wasamasa: With a name like that, it must have dozens of libraries!
2020-12-05T14:54:52Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-05T14:56:15Z wasamasa: seriously, what's wrong with these people: https://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-using-script-fu-tutorial-identifier.html
2020-12-05T14:57:20Z wasamasa: but I guess if I'm bored out of my mind, I could try and make a meme generator
2020-12-05T14:57:36Z wasamasa: and for comparison redo it with cairo and sdl2
2020-12-05T14:58:36Z aeth: to be fair, in the C world there are a dozen different styles
2020-12-05T14:58:48Z aeth: it's just that Lisp/Scheme tends to be remarkably uniform, enforced through Emacs+Paredit
2020-12-05T14:59:09Z wasamasa: and where's even the scripting reference
2020-12-05T15:03:55Z wasamasa: I guess you'll have to schemify https://developer.gimp.org/api/2.0/libgimp/index.html
2020-12-05T15:05:01Z wasamasa: or you can use their not quite smalltalk browser in the script-fu console
2020-12-05T15:05:25Z wasamasa: https://docs.gimp.org/2.10/en_US/plug-in-dbbrowser.html
2020-12-05T15:10:22Z mdhughes: wasamasa: I cuddle all my close parens on their own line, rather than hiding behind code.
2020-12-05T15:10:55Z wasamasa: think I'll stay with the code browser
2020-12-05T15:10:59Z mdhughes: I tried it the LISP way and it's impossible to see where anything ends or add code.
2020-12-05T15:11:08Z wasamasa: use paredit, lol
2020-12-05T15:11:22Z mdhughes: I'd rather chew broken glass than use emacs.
2020-12-05T15:11:54Z wasamasa: you emo!
2020-12-05T15:11:56Z mdhughes: I can match parens just fine in any editor, it's *reading* that's hard.
2020-12-05T15:12:14Z aeth: mdhughes: in practice, you rely on proper indentation rather than on the parentheses themselves
2020-12-05T15:12:23Z wasamasa: yup
2020-12-05T15:12:37Z aeth: the parentheses are mostly just there for the auto-formatting to be done properly, unlike something like Python, which is very hard to auto-format
2020-12-05T15:12:49Z mdhughes: I do have indentation, and my parens are all at the close level so I can see where that is.
2020-12-05T15:12:55Z wasamasa: ITYM auti-indentation
2020-12-05T15:12:58Z tatsumaru: one thing I liked about python was forcing proper indentation, i thought that was pretty cool
2020-12-05T15:13:01Z wasamasa: actual auto-formatting is rare
2020-12-05T15:13:15Z wasamasa: few things place the line breaks for you
2020-12-05T15:13:36Z mdhughes: Anyway, script-fu is tinyscheme, IIRC.
2020-12-05T15:13:44Z aeth: wasamasa: Emacs has auto-formatting, you just need to use M-q instead of having it be fully automated, which I'm not sure is the right choice, since in practice, any C-y is immediately followed by M-q
2020-12-05T15:14:34Z aeth: as for the line breaks themselves, that's sort of for your own personal taste, but you could probably automate it more than is typical
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2020-12-05T15:15:29Z wasamasa: I'm pretty sure fill-paragraph is the wrong thing to use on code
2020-12-05T15:15:40Z wasamasa: or do you mean indent-defun?
2020-12-05T15:16:07Z aeth: In general line breaks are one of four things: all on one line, breaking around a line character limit, putting every item on its own line (which might be two items per line if it's using keyword arguments), or indenting based on an implicit structure (like every 3-4 items)
2020-12-05T15:16:29Z aeth: wasamasa: It's M-q in my Emacs, maybe not yours.
2020-12-05T15:16:34Z wasamasa: alright, now write code actually implementing that
2020-12-05T15:16:46Z wasamasa: and maybe a paper because I've found a bunch
2020-12-05T15:16:46Z aeth: wasamasa: If you were to write code implementing that, it wouldn't cover the last case
2020-12-05T15:16:50Z aeth: But they're fairly rare.
2020-12-05T15:17:02Z wasamasa: bonus on staying in a 80 characters limit
2020-12-05T15:17:05Z aeth: 80, lol
2020-12-05T15:17:14Z wasamasa: because that's the real kicker when I look at other people's lisp code
2020-12-05T15:17:31Z wasamasa: I mean the fill column obviously
2020-12-05T15:17:42Z aeth: having ultra-short line limits like 80 or less is how you get style guides like this that obfuscate code... https://urbit.org/docs/tutorials/vere/c/
2020-12-05T15:19:12Z mdhughes: You could always use one of the weird Scheme-is-Python systems: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-119/srfi-119.html
2020-12-05T15:19:13Z aeth: In practice, and this is why auto-newlines aren't a good idea, character limits are a soft cap, not a hard cap
2020-12-05T15:19:29Z aeth: mdhughes: those sorts of things are only good if you're using dumb text editors rather than smart text editors or IDEs
2020-12-05T15:19:35Z wasamasa: sure, but if you're anywhere near serious about code formatting, the tool has to be aware of it
2020-12-05T15:20:06Z aeth: wasamasa: it's better to indent/reindent and leave the newline to the programmer, assuming that the programmer knows what they're doing.
2020-12-05T15:20:18Z mdhughes: You should always be smarter than your program or tools.
2020-12-05T15:20:58Z wasamasa: woops, guess no compilers for me
2020-12-05T15:21:03Z aeth: wasamasa: pretty much every exception to style rules is related to line breaks, like slightly going over the limit (which should be a soft limit, not a hard limit) by a character or two rather than making the code less readable by breaking it up into many lines.
2020-12-05T15:21:04Z wasamasa: it was nice knowing you, gcc
2020-12-05T15:21:18Z aeth: wasamasa: write your own compiler
2020-12-05T15:21:29Z wasamasa: ah yes, once I'm done with everything else
2020-12-05T15:21:40Z aeth: nah, do it before the kernel
2020-12-05T15:22:37Z mdhughes: Who needs a compiler? Just assemble your code by hand.
2020-12-05T15:23:07Z mdhughes: Code is just documentation.
2020-12-05T15:25:34Z aeth: Who needs a concrete machine that uses machine code? Just write programs. The machine is just an implementation detail that will probably change over time, anyway.
2020-12-05T15:25:38Z mdhughes: I'm not just being flippant. Compilers are a nice convenience, but if you *can't* hand-assemble code, you need to stop using high level tools until you learn how the machine really works.
2020-12-05T15:25:49Z aeth: Which machine?
2020-12-05T15:26:00Z mdhughes: Any machine. The world is a machine.
2020-12-05T15:26:46Z aeth: The thing is, CPU instruction sets are a fiction and the actual CPUs convert the compatibility instructions to the real instructions that you can't directly write. And GPUs are even more abstracted, and change even more between vendors and generations, with only a shader language as the API.
2020-12-05T15:26:54Z mdhughes: My mental model of a machine is a 6502 or 68000, admittedly. Intel's just fucking awful. ARM seems OK.
2020-12-05T15:27:31Z mdhughes: Well unless you can alter atoms with your steely psychokinetic powers, you're going to have to stop at the machine language level.
2020-12-05T15:27:40Z wasamasa: I know how a chip-8 works, does that count
2020-12-05T15:28:18Z aeth: mdhughes: GPUs don't even give you access to the machine language, and for good reason. They might change it in incompatible ways each generation, which is every two years, and you're expected to support at least 3 potentially-very-different, very incompatible manufacturers.
2020-12-05T15:28:21Z mdhughes: Kind of? It's a ghost of a ghost of a machine, and mostly coded in HLL, but it's like that.
2020-12-05T15:29:56Z aeth: The lowest level you can get for a GPU is a combination of the C API and SPIR-V, with anywhere from heavy reliance on the massive driver (OpenGL and/or DirectX 1-12) to decent reliance on the massive driver (Vulkan and/or DirectX 12)
2020-12-05T15:30:40Z aeth: As for CPUs, not every instruction available to you should be utilized. If a major C compiler doesn't use it and it's not a new instruction for SIMD, then it's probably just kept there for compatibility and is probably really slow.
2020-12-05T15:31:01Z Riastradh: The x86 and arm instruction sets are high-level languages.  The microarchitecture underneath is the real low-level language!
2020-12-05T15:31:28Z aeth: And when interacting with the OS (unless you have no OS or a niche OS) you will need to write to C APIs with the sole exception of Linux, where syscalls are a stable API.
2020-12-05T15:31:41Z aeth: Which still won't help you with GPUs.
2020-12-05T15:32:08Z mdhughes: <looks at mach assembly code> Uh, some of us use a kernel that predates Linux by a decade.
2020-12-05T15:33:33Z mdhughes: I haven't looked hard at Metal's API, but the command encoding happens on the CPU, so presumably it's understandable.
2020-12-05T15:33:38Z aeth: If you mean Mach as used in macOS, then you literally cannot write at the low level. Both macOS and Windows don't have a stable syscall interface, and since both are permanently on version "10", any minor version could break your code, which has happened to languages like Go that assume non-Linux syscalls are stable.
2020-12-05T15:34:11Z mdhughes: You literally *can* write at the low level. I have a giant tome about Mach internals doing just that.
2020-12-05T15:34:29Z mdhughes: "version 10"? macOS is 11 now.
2020-12-05T15:34:29Z aeth: You cannot write at a low level and assume your code will work both arbitrarily backwards and forwards.
2020-12-05T15:35:02Z aeth: Again, Linux syscalls are stable. Windows and macOS ones are not. You are supposed to use high-level OS APIs in those OSes.
2020-12-05T15:35:10Z mdhughes: Well obviously not, the CPU has changed three times now, the OS has updated some, and yet, the same system calls work.
2020-12-05T15:36:08Z mdhughes: Linux <gesture of one hand going up and down>
2020-12-05T15:36:43Z aeth: That's literally not true.
2020-12-05T15:36:46Z mdhughes: And Windows has had stable APIs since MSDOS.
2020-12-05T15:37:05Z mdhughes: 40-year-old still works on it. It's *horrible*, but it works.
2020-12-05T15:37:15Z mdhughes: s/still/code &/
2020-12-05T15:37:43Z aeth: Again, that's literally not true.
2020-12-05T15:38:12Z mdhughes: I do not think this word "literally" means what you think it means.
2020-12-05T15:38:21Z aeth: Your old Windows code will only work if (1) it used the APIs that Microsoft wanted you to use (which is not the NT syscalls directly) or (2) it's important enough that Microsoft specifically worked around your breakage
2020-12-05T15:38:37Z aeth: Windows syscalls themselves change all of the time because they are not a stable API
2020-12-05T15:39:24Z aeth: Here's an apparent example of a macOS syscall change breaking Go, which is a proglang that directly calls syscalls intead of using the OS-approved stable API. https://github.com/golang/go/issues/16606
2020-12-05T15:39:54Z aeth: Here is a giant table of Windows syscalls changing over time, including 11 times in Windows 10. https://j00ru.vexillium.org/syscalls/nt/64/
2020-12-05T15:40:19Z aeth: In the old days, at least they only broke things in the service packs...
2020-12-05T15:40:38Z wasamasa: I wonder how go deals with the openbsd changes
2020-12-05T15:40:49Z wasamasa: where you're supposed to use libc for syscalls
2020-12-05T15:40:53Z aeth: mdhughes: So when I say that what you are saying is literally untrue, I mean literally, your statements are objectively #f
2020-12-05T15:41:56Z mdhughes: LOL, the go-tards were passing junk in a field to gettimeofday, because that works on Linux, and it "broke" when the Mac checked it.
2020-12-05T15:42:23Z aeth: mdhughes: That might not be the exact example because it's hard to search. However, my Windows example is objective and I do recall Go breaking on macOS due to syscall changes.
2020-12-05T15:42:55Z mdhughes: go breaks because it's a garbage language designed for code peons at Google to not be able to break out of the cage.
2020-12-05T15:43:35Z aeth: Go breaks because it does exactly what you are telling people to do, which is writing directly for the machine even if those APIs are unstable instead of using high-level OS APIs that are designed to be stable.
2020-12-05T15:44:10Z aeth: Again, Linux syscalls are a stable API. Syscalls in other OSes, including macOS and Windows, are not, and those OSes have preferred, "high-level" libraries that you are expected to use.
2020-12-05T15:44:47Z aeth: The lowest level that you can use is the lowest level that is (1) exposed and (2) stable.
2020-12-05T15:45:27Z aeth: Even on the bare metal, this isn't particularly low these days, and you can't even get to the GPU "bare metal".
2020-12-05T15:45:31Z mdhughes: Looking at those windows APIs, looks like they're stable within a major version, and I know MS provides thunks for binaries targeting older APIs.
2020-12-05T15:47:23Z aeth: The problem with Windows is that a "stable" version is a lot less stable than it used to be with Windows 10 being, for now, the last official release of Windows. Notice how they've had 11 different sets of syscalls for Windows 10 already, and will probably have dozens more.
2020-12-05T15:48:15Z wasamasa wonders what a cross VM mutant could be
2020-12-05T15:48:39Z wasamasa: another nice thing is how they reused IDs
2020-12-05T15:48:45Z wasamasa: great way to fuck over people
2020-12-05T15:50:03Z wasamasa: how do metasploit payloads even work
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2020-12-05T15:53:13Z mdhughes: Linux syscalls are not a stable API: https://fedora.juszkiewicz.com.pl/syscalls.html
2020-12-05T15:53:59Z mdhughes: I wouldn't even normally bother to rebut religious nonsense about Linux, but, since you can't stop saying it.
2020-12-05T15:54:35Z Riastradh: `stable' (preserves semantics from release to release) vs `different across architectures'
2020-12-05T15:56:16Z mdhughes: But architectures change every few years, so it's an angels-dancing-on-pinheads distinction.
2020-12-05T15:58:53Z Riastradh: no dispute there, I think it's pretty silly for syscall numbers to be wildly different across architectures
2020-12-05T15:59:12Z mdhughes: If you're learning how a machine works, or keeping up skills for when the AI-pocalypse destroys all compilers, or whatever, you code ASM for your current CPU, with whatever syscalls you have available. If you need to fix it some years later, that's fine.
2020-12-05T16:00:32Z mdhughes: A different syscall number would hopefully indicate different parameters, and different BIOS may consume many numbers.
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2020-12-05T16:16:09Z aeth: mdhughes: notice how it's just a table for different architectures, rather than change over time, like the Windows table and the macOS one that could exist if enough programmers used macOS to care about it
2020-12-05T16:16:20Z aeth: (maybe it's there, but not easily searchable)
2020-12-05T16:17:48Z aeth: If you're using asm language to write to syscalls, you're going to have to port your entire program to the other, new architecture, anyway
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2020-12-05T16:58:53Z [d]: <a​eth#0000> (maybe it's there, but not easily searchable)
2020-12-05T16:58:53Z [d]: <a​eth#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T16:58:54Z [d]: <a​eth#0000> If you're using asm language to write to syscalls, you're going to have to port your entire program to the other, new architecture, anyway
2020-12-05T16:58:56Z [d]: <a​eth#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T16:58:56Z [d]: <a​eth#0000> mdhughes: notice how it's just a table for different architectures, rather than change over time, like the Windows table and the macOS one that could exist if enough programmers used macOS to care about it
2020-12-05T16:58:58Z [d]: <a​eth#0000> [edit]:
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2020-12-05T17:00:00Z mdhughes: What a fantastic new technology you've discovered there.
2020-12-05T17:05:56Z Zipheir: Hmm, the Discord wave seems to be spreading here as well.
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2020-12-05T17:07:29Z Zipheir: Perhaps just coincidence, but a few channels I'm on suddenly saw a lot of traffic from the Discord bot, seemingly out of nowhere.
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2020-12-05T17:25:22Z jcowan: In practice, however, the NT Executive syscalls have become stable, as too much code (not just Microsoft's own code) has come to depend on them.  If MS changed them, they'd lose their "backward compatible to the beginning" guarantees (not quite true any more with the loss of the 16-bit world)
2020-12-05T17:26:31Z jcowan: Question: What should ((compose f g) x) do: should it return (f (g x)) or (g (f x))?  Mathematicians go both ways, and Z notation uses a different symbol for each.
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2020-12-05T17:31:47Z mdhughes: Naïvely reading it I'd expect (f (g x)), but then I remember mathematicians do everything backwards so it'd be (g (f x))
2020-12-05T17:32:26Z mdhughes: If I'm accumulating a list of functions, I'd apply them in car order, so the former makes more sense.
2020-12-05T17:35:11Z Riastradh: jcowan: I would expect (f (g x)), and I've never seen the compose symbol like `o' mean anything other than (f o g)(x) = f(g(x)) in any of the math that I've encountered.
2020-12-05T17:35:46Z Riastradh: It would be nice if (compose string->integer integer->bits bits->frobbotzim) worked the way it looked.  But that's not my expectation a priori.
2020-12-05T17:36:39Z aeth: jcowan: I agree with Riastradh on how math interprets it
2020-12-05T17:37:07Z jcowan: That was exactly my reasoning: it is easier to understand "apply f, then apply g to the result, then apply h to the result ..." than "the result of applying f to the result of applying g to the result of applying h ..."
2020-12-05T17:37:45Z jcowan: The Z notation form of the (g (f x)) compose is the fat semicolon
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2020-12-05T17:38:51Z jcowan (tries to) sing "This is the function / that Father bought for two frobbotzim" (it doesn't scan)
2020-12-05T17:40:32Z aeth: jcowan: And my guess is the syscalls that tend to break in Windows are the newer ones, since they have to keep compatability with the old stuff (more or less), but they make no guarantee for newer poorly written stuff these days.
2020-12-05T17:41:23Z aeth: (On the other hand, Apple doesn't care about backwards compatability and already broke compatability with x86 and is in the process of breaking compatability with x86-64, after having already broken compatability with several architectures before.)
2020-12-05T17:41:26Z jcowan: By syscalls here I mean those used by the Executive (beginning "Nt", to be clear).  Cygwin uses them, though sparingly
2020-12-05T17:43:47Z Riastradh: aeth: I think you underestimate the lengths Apple goes to for backward compatibility.  You know they have an implementation of the x86 instruction set on the M1 devices?
2020-12-05T17:44:12Z mdhughes: You really don't know what you're talking about with Apple's software. 35-year-old NeXTstep programs still compile and run. Assembly like objc_msgSend has to be rewritten, and gets more efficient in every rewrite.
2020-12-05T17:45:03Z mdhughes: But all my old mach code *does* still run, at least until I get an M1 (and then it runs in emulation).
2020-12-05T17:46:00Z mdhughes: Apple does aggressively mark things as deprecated and take them away 1-4 years later. Except when they don't, and we have APIs "deprecated" for 15+ years.
2020-12-05T17:46:49Z aeth: Riastradh: Apple's backwards compatability is finite. Always has been.
2020-12-05T17:48:13Z aeth: Riastradh: It's called Rosetta 2. Rosetta 1 lasted from 2006 until 2011, or 5 years. Rosetta 2 will probably last a bit longer because the transition is going to take longer. I think the transition itself is supposed to take 4 years?
2020-12-05T17:48:48Z aeth: So we could see it last 9 years, while everything else can run stuff from the 90s and will continue to be able to by the time Rosetta 2 is retired.
2020-12-05T17:50:12Z aeth: mdhughes: I can believe that the deprecated OpenGL will last a long time because nobody has any reason to care about Metal if they're not developing for iOS. Cross-platform 3D software uses OpenGL, and nobody's going to write another renderer for 5% of the market.
2020-12-05T17:50:26Z mdhughes: "everything else" is running on what CPU? You're running i386 binaries on your ARM?
2020-12-05T17:50:29Z aeth: On the other hand, I can also imagine Apple just not caring and removing OpenGL anyway
2020-12-05T17:51:29Z aeth: mdhughes: Everything else is largely stuck to the architecture that it became popular on. 32->64 bit and other such transitions are partial exceptions.
2020-12-05T17:51:35Z mdhughes: Almost all new/currently updated Mac apps and games either use Metal directly now, or VulkanML. OpenGL probably *will* survive another 5-10 years, but nobody uses it in green code.
2020-12-05T17:51:37Z aeth: mdhughes: This goes both directions. Android on x86 has been a failure
2020-12-05T17:52:20Z aeth: mdhughes: Plenty of people use OpenGL in new code because it's far simpler than Vulkan and writing a naive Vulkan renderer in a month generally results in something that runs slower than using OpenGL
2020-12-05T17:52:50Z mdhughes: That's because x86 burns battery like a California wildfire. Who'd buy such a thing?
2020-12-05T17:53:16Z Riastradh: anyway maybe this discussion could be brought back to the subject of Scheme?
2020-12-05T17:53:36Z mdhughes: aeth: Not on the Mac or iOS, they don't. Only Linux is still using OpenGL.
2020-12-05T17:54:28Z mdhughes: Well, I don't have a LISP Machine to hand-assemble my Scheme to.
2020-12-05T17:54:29Z aeth: mdhughes: Plenty of OpenGL applications are written using an incredibly ancient version of OpenGL with the explicit intent to run on the Mac in addition to Linux+Windows.
2020-12-05T17:55:32Z mdhughes: Right, the many programs that care about Linux graphics, but don't bother with DirectX on Windows.
2020-12-05T17:55:51Z mdhughes: OK. Enough silliness.
2020-12-05T17:57:01Z aeth: You use OpenGL when you want to run on "every" (generally ignoring mobile/console) platform. So that generally means that such things stick to OpenGL 3.x or perhaps go up to OpenGL 4.2 or whatever ancient version macOS supports.
2020-12-05T17:57:45Z aeth: Pretty much any Lisp/Scheme engine/framework in #lispgames will probably be using OpenGL 3.2 or OpenGL 3.3
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2020-12-05T17:58:57Z [d]: <E​duardo124#0000> thanks!
2020-12-05T17:58:58Z [d]: <E​duardo124#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T17:58:59Z [d]: <Z​ipheir#0000> Why did all of that shift to Discord?
2020-12-05T17:58:59Z [d]: <Z​ipheir#0000> Hmm, the Discord wave seems to be spreading here as well.
2020-12-05T17:58:59Z [d]: <Z​ipheir#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T17:59:00Z [d]: <Z​ipheir#0000> Perhaps just coincidence, but a few channels I'm on suddenly saw a lot of traffic from the Discord bot, seemingly out of nowhere.
2020-12-05T17:59:00Z [d]: <Z​ipheir#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T17:59:01Z [d]: <j​cowan#0000> In practice, however, the NT Executive syscalls have become stable, as too much code (not just Microsoft's own code) has come to depend on them.  If MS changed them, they'd lose their "backward compatible to the beginning" guarantees (not quite true any more with the loss of the 16-bit world)
2020-12-05T17:59:01Z [d]: <Z​ipheir#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T17:59:02Z [d]: <j​cowan#0000> Question: What should ((compose f g) x) do: should it return (f (g x)) or (g (f x))?  Mathematicians go both ways, and Z notation uses a different symbol for each.
2020-12-05T17:59:02Z [d]: <j​cowan#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T17:59:03Z [d]: <j​cowan#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T17:59:03Z [d]: <m​dhughes#0000> Naïvely reading it I'd expect (f (g x)), but then I remember mathematicians do everything backwards so it'd be (g (f x))
2020-12-05T17:59:04Z [d]: <m​dhughes#0000> If I'm accumulating a list of functions, I'd apply them in car order, so the former makes more sense.
2020-12-05T17:59:04Z [d]: <m​dhughes#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T17:59:05Z [d]: <R​iastradh#0000> jcowan: I would expect (f (g x)), and I've never seen the compose symbol like `o' mean anything other than (f o g)(x) = f(g(x)) in any of the math that I've encountered.
2020-12-05T17:59:05Z [d]: <m​dhughes#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-05T17:59:06Z [d]: <R​iastradh#0000> It would be nice if (compose string->integer integer->bits bits->frobbotzim) worked the way it looked.  But that's not my expectation a priori.
2020-12-05T18:01:25Z mdhughes: I'm one more spam away from blocking [d]
2020-12-05T18:01:58Z aeth: Except in the gaming channels, where the Discord mirror generally drowns out any IRC traffic over time, I generally ignore (in my head, not with /ignore, but I might have to literally /ignore this one) Discord bridges.
2020-12-05T18:02:27Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2020-12-05T18:02:32Z Riastradh has set mode +q [d]!*@*
2020-12-05T18:02:57Z Riastradh: If anyone wants to use Discord to talk, you can let me know.
2020-12-05T18:03:02Z wasamasa: yeah, what's with the discord bot
2020-12-05T18:03:17Z wasamasa: is it misbehaving and repeating what has been said before or did these users really hop over?
2020-12-05T18:03:18Z aeth: Discord's culture's just too different from IRC's. A lot more temporary (since it's unsearchable so history doesn't matter), line-flooding, immature.
2020-12-05T18:03:33Z wasamasa: it is searchable, lol
2020-12-05T18:03:38Z Riastradh: IRC is searchable?
2020-12-05T18:03:47Z wasamasa: contrast with everyone having to keep their own IRC logs
2020-12-05T18:03:49Z aeth: IRC is searchable if you keep logs or if the channel is logged in public, like this one is.
2020-12-05T18:04:06Z aeth: Discord uses some fuzzy search that doesn't really go back very far, so ime you can know verbatim what you're looking for and never find it again.
2020-12-05T18:04:16Z wasamasa: not sure what flooding you talk about, hating on the kids using discord more than IRC?
2020-12-05T18:04:23Z wasamasa: immature, sure
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2020-12-05T18:04:36Z wasamasa: it's unwise to bet on that company
2020-12-05T18:04:48Z aeth: Discord tends to use many, many lines where IRC culture resorts to e.g. pastebins
2020-12-05T18:04:55Z aeth: It's rude to use too many lines in a row on IRC.
2020-12-05T18:05:04Z wasamasa: it can do that, but it's not terribly common
2020-12-05T18:05:15Z wasamasa: mostly eases the pain of otherwise having to use a pastebin
2020-12-05T18:05:22Z wasamasa: or an image bin
2020-12-05T18:05:48Z aeth: Embedding images/video/etc. directly into chat is partially why Discord is almost entirely noise, with very little of value on it.
2020-12-05T18:05:57Z aeth: Text forces a level of maturity, generally.
2020-12-05T18:06:03Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-05T18:06:17Z wasamasa eyes the immature conversation about syscall maturity
2020-12-05T18:07:02Z Riastradh: ...aaaaanyway, maybe we can bring the subject back to Scheme here?
2020-12-05T18:07:03Z mdhughes: Discord's great for my gaming guilds. Every other use of it with more than a few users has been terrible.
2020-12-05T18:07:23Z mdhughes: There was something about compose…
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2020-12-05T18:08:46Z aeth: wasamasa: imagine that, but with reaction gifs :-p
2020-12-05T18:09:12Z wasamasa: nah, I'd just add the appropriate reaction to the post and really, IRCv3 does have that feature
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2020-12-05T20:19:57Z wasamasa: where's that tatsumaru person and where can I get my time back
2020-12-05T20:20:44Z ZombieChicken: given that name, I'd assume an anime con, or Japan
2020-12-05T20:21:10Z wasamasa: my experiments so far suggest that using script-fu for anything than the most basic tasks is a bad idea
2020-12-05T20:22:10Z ZombieChicken: script-fu?
2020-12-05T20:22:16Z ZombieChicken: you mean Bash?
2020-12-05T20:22:17Z wasamasa: a gimp thing
2020-12-05T20:22:21Z ZombieChicken: ah
2020-12-05T20:22:29Z ZombieChicken: Right. It uses guile, doesn't it?
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2020-12-05T20:23:29Z wasamasa: I wish
2020-12-05T20:23:32Z wasamasa: it's using tinyscheme
2020-12-05T20:23:56Z wasamasa: takes 20s to fetch all pixels in a 128x128 block
2020-12-05T20:24:02Z wasamasa: I have loads of these blocks :D
2020-12-05T20:24:45Z ZombieChicken: Ah.
2020-12-05T20:25:12Z ZombieChicken: Let me guess; it's about as multithreaded as Emacs?
2020-12-05T20:25:46Z wasamasa: dunno about that, but I can operate the scheme console while the script runs
2020-12-05T20:25:51Z wasamasa: which is very cool
2020-12-05T20:27:18Z ZombieChicken: neat
2020-12-05T20:28:16Z Zipheir: At least there's a decent documentation feature for Script-Fu.
2020-12-05T20:28:26Z wasamasa: it's so-so
2020-12-05T20:28:36Z Zipheir: But those bogus non-Scheme-booleans...
2020-12-05T20:28:41Z wasamasa: lol indeed
2020-12-05T20:28:46Z wasamasa: they compare them with =
2020-12-05T20:28:59Z wasamasa: it's very much a wrapper for the C API
2020-12-05T20:30:25Z wasamasa: so what I got out of the #gimp channel so far is that you're supposed to write a plugin instead of a script if you want to get the raw bytes for fast access
2020-12-05T20:30:28Z Zipheir: wasamasa: You might find these useful.  My "sanity" macros for script-fu. http://ix.io/2GLo
2020-12-05T20:31:38Z wasamasa: thanks
2020-12-05T20:31:38Z Zipheir: That sounds like poor design, given that most of the filters are script-fu programs.  Maybe that explains why they're usually so slow.
2020-12-05T20:32:15Z wasamasa: I suspected as much when discovering how slow the spirograph program is
2020-12-05T20:32:21Z Zipheir: (They're also written in an extremely Pythonic style.  Eww.)
2020-12-05T20:33:00Z wasamasa: yeah, not knowing about named let is ugh
2020-12-05T20:33:38Z ZombieChicken: Python dev trying out Scheme (or a Scheme-like/lite)?
2020-12-05T20:34:16Z Zipheir: The ugliest idiom they use is (let ((foo #f) (bar #f) (baz #f)) ... (set! foo some-actual-value) ...)
2020-12-05T20:34:24Z Zipheir: Gotta declare those variables!
2020-12-05T20:34:47Z Zipheir: ZombieChicken: They're definitely moving toward Python-only programmability.
2020-12-05T20:35:21Z ZombieChicken: Wow. Sure that isn't a C programmer with a week of Python experience writing Scheme for the first time ever?
2020-12-05T20:36:39Z Zipheir: You might guess that from the paren style alone: https://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-using-script-fu-tutorial-script.html
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2020-12-05T20:37:35Z ZombieChicken: Zipheir: You owe me a bottle of eyebleach and a profuse apology
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2020-12-05T20:39:48Z Zipheir: Hah, forgot to include a content warning, oops.
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2020-12-05T20:43:16Z ZombieChicken: I kinda wonder how they butchered the indent style so badly.
2020-12-05T20:43:37Z ZombieChicken: I thought Lisp programming style was pretty simple...
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2020-12-05T21:07:13Z wasamasa: the gimp thing is still running
2020-12-05T21:07:34Z wasamasa: guess I won't use it for my meme generator
2020-12-05T21:07:43Z Zipheir: Which GIMP version?
2020-12-05T21:07:47Z wasamasa: even though that won't use nearly as much calls
2020-12-05T21:07:51Z wasamasa: 2.10.something
2020-12-05T21:08:04Z wasamasa: admittedly, the image is large
2020-12-05T21:08:09Z wasamasa: let me calculate how long it takes in total
2020-12-05T21:08:43Z Zipheir: 2.10 has been extremely unstable IME, and a bit slower than 2.8.
2020-12-05T21:09:38Z wasamasa: four and a half hours
2020-12-05T21:09:43Z wasamasa: yeah, fuck no
2020-12-05T21:11:25Z Zipheir: What is the script doing?
2020-12-05T21:12:09Z wasamasa: blurring a picture, then pixellating it
2020-12-05T21:12:17Z wasamasa: same thing as the pixelize filter really
2020-12-05T21:13:54Z Zipheir: Is the image huge?
2020-12-05T21:14:04Z Zipheir: Since that shouldn't take *that* long.
2020-12-05T21:14:07Z wasamasa: bigger than usual, yes
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2020-12-05T21:14:12Z wasamasa: 3000x4000 pixels
2020-12-05T21:14:49Z Zipheir: And that takes 4.5 hours?  Jeez.
2020-12-05T21:14:51Z wasamasa: still, my non-optimized reference program using imlib2 takes 43s
2020-12-05T21:15:05Z wasamasa: if a 128x128 square takes 20s to average, yes :D
2020-12-05T21:15:17Z Zipheir: Something's screwed up there.
2020-12-05T21:15:49Z wasamasa: I've aborted the gimp run after watching a 45min video in the background :D
2020-12-05T21:16:01Z wasamasa: so I won't know whether my napkin calculation plays out, but it sure looks like it
2020-12-05T21:16:10Z wasamasa: as it was at most 20% done
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2020-12-05T21:37:54Z edgar-rft: wasamasa: is it a why-is-gimp-so-goddamn-slow meme?
2020-12-05T21:38:30Z wasamasa: no, I'm investigating a question someone posted in here hours ago, so far with negative results
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2020-12-05T21:53:38Z wasamasa: the non-freenode #gimp channel suggests writing GEGL filters in C instead and using them for anything requiring a fast filter or preview functionality
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2020-12-05T21:56:26Z ZombieChicken: so in other words, don't use the scripting engine...
2020-12-05T21:56:44Z wasamasa: they might make it accessible for scripting in GIMP 3.0, but eh
2020-12-05T21:56:49Z wasamasa: I wouldn't bet on that
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2020-12-05T21:57:51Z wasamasa: I'd rather phrase it as, use the scripting engine for the same tasks you use photoshop's automation API
2020-12-05T21:57:55Z wasamasa: to automate menial tasks
2020-12-05T21:57:59Z wasamasa: no more than that
2020-12-05T21:58:17Z wasamasa: like a keyboard macro in emacs
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2020-12-05T22:02:05Z mdhughes: It's weird that script-fu's that slow, I've run tinyscheme some and it's usable.
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2020-12-05T22:11:35Z ZombieChicken: maybe they reimplemented it poorly?
2020-12-05T22:13:07Z mdhughes: Well, doing a primes benchmark it runs 10% to 0.1% of Chez up to about 10000 primes, at which point ts runs out of memory.
2020-12-05T22:14:09Z mdhughes: Probably something stupid in how they did their FFI. The thing ts is good for is native integration, so they're doing a lot of work in boxing/unboxing, I'd guess.
2020-12-05T22:15:02Z ZombieChicken: Yeah. Probably wired it into their other systems in a stupid way
2020-12-05T22:15:08Z wasamasa: it has been poetically described as sending a letter to obtain a pixel
2020-12-05T22:15:35Z ZombieChicken: "Dear Mr. CPU, will you please allow me to aquire..."
2020-12-05T22:15:42Z ZombieChicken: "."
2020-12-05T22:16:17Z mdhughes: What I'd expect them to do: "give me pixels in this box in this vector". What they probably do: "Give me this pixel in an RGB list"
2020-12-05T22:17:05Z ZombieChicken: they might be asking a comittee to decide what the pixel should look like, then giving you the result
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2020-12-05T22:20:11Z wasamasa: I'm mildly curious to compare whether python-fu is faster, but it depends on python2
2020-12-05T22:20:13Z wasamasa: so I'm out
2020-12-05T22:21:09Z ZombieChicken: fwiw, 2.10 is py3
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2020-12-05T22:21:28Z wasamasa: you sure about that: https://docs.gimp.org/2.10/en_US/gimp-filters-python-fu.html
2020-12-05T22:21:39Z wasamasa: it's a python 2.6.8 console in the screenshot
2020-12-05T22:21:48Z ZombieChicken: given that eye watering example posted by someone whose name I shant mention, I think their python is probably better than their scheme
2020-12-05T22:22:06Z ZombieChicken: wasamasa: gentoo ebuild doesn't list python 2 as a target
2020-12-05T22:23:04Z wasamasa: the PKGBUILD just disables python completely and doesn't depend on it for that reason
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2020-12-05T22:40:04Z Zipheir: ZombieChicken: The tutorial I posted?  Also, am I Voldemort now?
2020-12-05T22:40:30Z ZombieChicken: Zipheir: I won't forget that for some time. That almost made my eyes bleed
2020-12-05T22:41:06Z Zipheir: Sheesh, it wasn't that awful.
2020-12-05T22:53:02Z wasamasa: it suggested departing from kebab-case for function arguments
2020-12-05T23:06:46Z mdhughes: Ain't illegal. And kebab's a pain in the ass in a lot of editors.
2020-12-05T23:07:27Z mdhughes mostly uses 1-letter var names anyway.
2020-12-05T23:07:52Z ZombieChicken: for something like a simple iterator, that makes sense
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2020-12-05T23:46:54Z tatsumaru: any libertarians here? curious if there's correlation between scheme use and libertarian views.
2020-12-05T23:59:50Z daviid: wasamasa: disclaimer, I am its author, but I wonder if guile-cv would fit your needs - if you'd be happy to use or already use guile that is ...
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2020-12-06T00:26:05Z Zipheir: Heheh.  Liberate the lambdas.
2020-12-06T00:27:22Z aeth: real libertarians use https://github.com/MichaelBurge/pyramid-scheme
2020-12-06T00:32:03Z Zipheir: Ah, the EVM.
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2020-12-06T01:44:21Z jcowan: I'm a civil libertarian, but rude libertarians don't think that counts.
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2020-12-06T02:18:48Z Riastradh: I'm a poetic libertarian, but crude libertarians don't think that scans.
2020-12-06T02:18:51Z Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh
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2020-12-06T02:47:17Z jcowan: Riastradh: What poetic liberties do you take?
2020-12-06T02:48:54Z Riastradh: calling myself `poetic'
2020-12-06T02:50:09Z Riastradh: (which is not even true -- that is, not even the calling myself part -- hence very poetically libertudinal for the sake of a word substitution joke)
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2020-12-06T03:38:04Z woky: Hi. This is a bit off-topic. Sorry for that. Some time ago (cca 5 years) I had seen few lectures of a course on edX from Harvard about compiler construction which ultimately was in Scheme (or some Lisp variant). The course was taught by very energetic professor whose ethnic roots were probably in India. Do you know the name of the teacher?
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2020-12-06T03:46:45Z duncanm: maybe it's shriram krishnamurthi?
2020-12-06T03:47:32Z woky: duncanm, bingo! Thank you!
2020-12-06T03:47:53Z duncanm: https://pwlconf.org/2019/shriram-krishnamurthi/
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2020-12-06T08:47:53Z wasamasa: daviid: all this serves a silly purpose, coming up with an answer for tatsumaru (who I've missed once again)
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2020-12-06T08:48:33Z wasamasa: rudybot: later tell tatsumaru script-fu sucks for image processing, see https://lonely.town/@wasamasa/105330309742187188 for the details
2020-12-06T08:48:33Z rudybot: wasamasa: I asked `MemoServ' to forward the message to tatsumaru.
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2020-12-06T14:18:34Z tatsumaru: wasamasa thanks for the review of script-fu
2020-12-06T14:18:44Z wasamasa: you're welcome
2020-12-06T14:26:01Z wasamasa: I'll hopefully never use it again
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2020-12-06T20:15:05Z Riastradh: Anyone know if any mail @scheme-reports.org is still active?  (mailing lists, relevant mail aliases, &c.)
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2020-12-08T07:14:50Z mdhughes: beep
2020-12-08T07:19:55Z srandon111: people... is there a book similar to "practical common lisp" for scheme?
2020-12-08T07:20:08Z srandon111: i mean any scheme dialect/implementation is fine
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2020-12-08T07:44:36Z mdhughes: What's PCL like?
2020-12-08T07:46:10Z mdhughes: http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-texts
2020-12-08T07:47:00Z srandon111: mdhughes, well most of the practical books listed here are related to racket
2020-12-08T07:47:16Z srandon111: i mean a real scheme such as chicken/guile/chez
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2020-12-08T07:48:03Z mdhughes: TSPL's Chez (any R6, but really Chez), and it's my book of choice. But Racket has the biggest educational community.
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2020-12-08T07:50:05Z mdhughes: Concrete's 20 years old but a reasonable CS text.
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2020-12-08T11:15:08Z tatsumaru: I hear a lot of people in the IT space especially non-engineers use the word "implement" as in "apply changes" and I am wondering if that's even semantically correct e.g. "Test on staging before implementing on live environment first"
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2020-12-08T11:23:50Z ManDay: sure, why not
2020-12-08T11:27:45Z mdhughes: Deploying, really.
2020-12-08T11:28:08Z mdhughes: Implement = writing the actual code.
2020-12-08T11:29:15Z mdhughes: So you implement at your desk, deploy to test, then deploy to prod. If you're making any changes in test or prod, it should go back to the developer!
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2020-12-08T11:31:17Z ManDay: i always interpret "implement" in the traditional meaning of the word. introduce whatever changes into whatever exists. that includes the case where you write a code from scratch (you implement it into "void")
2020-12-08T11:31:38Z ManDay: but I wont go to war over that definition with you mdhughes
2020-12-08T11:32:19Z foof: from the french "imp, le ment" = imp, the lie.
2020-12-08T11:32:21Z foof: the lie being that we impish devs didn't code it in the first place, and when they actually want to see it in prod we need to scramble and do it.
2020-12-08T11:32:40Z mdhughes: I was a sysadmin back in the day, and a developer at several small & large corps. If you touch the code on test or prod, I take away your privileges!
2020-12-08T11:32:44Z tatsumaru: so how is implementation as in scheme implementation relatable to the idea of introducing changes?
2020-12-08T11:33:27Z mdhughes: It's an "implementation" as in some developer read the spec and implemented Scheme.
2020-12-08T11:34:10Z tatsumaru: sounds more like production or realization to me, maybe I don't get it
2020-12-08T11:34:39Z tatsumaru: or even actualization
2020-12-08T11:36:02Z mdhughes: SF Bay Area/MIT Engineer English isn't general-purpose English. Production has a real specific meaning for "what the customer sees".
2020-12-08T11:36:25Z mdhughes: And actualization is, like, hippies getting in touch with their feelings & drugs, you know, maaaan?
2020-12-08T11:36:27Z ManDay: however, then it is used as a noun
2020-12-08T11:36:53Z ManDay: mdhughes: you just made that up, didnt you
2020-12-08T11:37:14Z mdhughes: I assure you I'm not old enough to invent "actualization".
2020-12-08T11:38:21Z mdhughes: 1943: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
2020-12-08T11:38:23Z tatsumaru: mdhughes you are probably referrion to Maslow's idea of self-actualization which just means understanding what you really want to do with your life
2020-12-08T11:38:30Z tatsumaru: referring*
2020-12-08T11:39:08Z tatsumaru: actualization I think is used in electrical engineering and biology too
2020-12-08T11:39:29Z mdhughes: My joke of hippies, however, is not a joke. Every ex-hippie in tech thinks it means tuning up their brain with peyote and EST seminars.
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2020-12-08T11:39:46Z foof: what I really want to do with my life is discuss semantics on irc.
2020-12-08T11:39:52Z foof: oh, lucky me!
2020-12-08T11:39:56Z tatsumaru: foof you are self-actualized
2020-12-08T11:40:01Z mdhughes: YOU ARE A WINNER, foo.
2020-12-08T11:40:05Z mdhughes: foof.
2020-12-08T11:40:08Z mdhughes: oof.
2020-12-08T11:40:11Z tatsumaru: teach me sensei
2020-12-08T11:41:27Z ManDay: foof: not just any semantics! but the semantics of the word "implement"!
2020-12-08T11:42:33Z tatsumaru: It's like Einstein famously declared: "For the rest of my life I will reflect on what light is. " foof wants to reflect on the nature of implementation
2020-12-08T11:43:00Z mdhughes: Turns out people who program in finicky languages all day are finicky about English, too.
2020-12-08T11:43:33Z foof: of course in my day job I'm finicky about every language but English...
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2020-12-08T11:48:31Z tatsumaru: foof are you an implementation reflector in your day job as well
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2020-12-08T11:52:17Z wasamasa: mdhughes: do I want to look up what an EST seminar is
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2020-12-08T11:52:37Z tatsumaru: wasamasa, I think you've already made that decision, now you need to understand why you made it
2020-12-08T11:52:44Z wasamasa: no, I haven't
2020-12-08T11:52:57Z mdhughes: wasamasa: If you like really crappy people taking advantage of people, yes. It's an old self-help cult, one of my bosses was into it and tried to make me do it.
2020-12-08T11:53:03Z wasamasa: you see, I've practiced this skill of just idly pondering things and dropping them as needed
2020-12-08T11:53:22Z tatsumaru: master of letting go
2020-12-08T11:53:39Z wasamasa: what I won't let go though is the opportunity for a meme
2020-12-08T11:53:43Z wasamasa: rudybot: LET IT GOOOO
2020-12-08T11:53:48Z rudybot: wasamasa: goooo team emacs!
2020-12-08T11:53:53Z wasamasa: :D
2020-12-08T11:54:11Z tatsumaru: are you saying memes are you weakness?
2020-12-08T11:54:15Z tatsumaru: your*
2020-12-08T11:54:50Z wasamasa: yes
2020-12-08T11:55:04Z tatsumaru: maybe you will like lolcode then
2020-12-08T11:55:09Z wasamasa: actually
2020-12-08T11:55:20Z wasamasa: I tried making sense of their spec to see if it's suitable for implementing MAL in
2020-12-08T11:55:27Z wasamasa: but it turned out to not be the case
2020-12-08T11:55:32Z wasamasa: really bad spec
2020-12-08T11:55:47Z tatsumaru: cats are not the best engineers I guess
2020-12-08T11:56:09Z wasamasa: like, there's the well-known first version which is unusable for anything but the simplest programs
2020-12-08T11:56:25Z mdhughes: (for-each (lambda (x) (display "never gonna ") (display x) (newline)) '("give
2020-12-08T11:56:26Z mdhughes: you up" "let you down" "run around and desert you" "make you cry" "say goodbye")
2020-12-08T11:56:26Z mdhughes: )
2020-12-08T11:56:27Z wasamasa: and hints of a second version with string processing and that kind of stuff, but the spec has bitrotted away
2020-12-08T11:56:35Z wasamasa: it just exists in the form of test files
2020-12-08T11:56:58Z tatsumaru: what is MAL
2020-12-08T11:57:14Z wasamasa: think of a nils holm book, but accessible to the github crowd
2020-12-08T11:57:24Z wasamasa: no payment required and you can finish it in a few weekends
2020-12-08T12:00:19Z tatsumaru: ma brain returned undefined for nils holm
2020-12-08T12:01:02Z mdhughes: Teach Yourself LOLCODE in 21 Days
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2020-12-08T12:06:39Z foof: more importantly the s9fes author
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2020-12-08T13:15:13Z amirouche: The founder of freebase (now google knowledge graph) has another try to a pro bono world knowledge graph with MIT, see https://www.underlay.org/ and https://bigthink.com/videos/google-2-0-why-mit-scientists-are-building-a-new-search-engine
2020-12-08T13:15:36Z amirouche: this is somewhat related to my work on srfi-168, vnstore / copernic et al.
2020-12-08T13:15:38Z amirouche: ;)
2020-12-08T13:16:40Z wasamasa: vnstore??
2020-12-08T13:16:58Z wasamasa: why do their RFCs have negative numbers?
2020-12-08T13:17:13Z amirouche: versioned nstore, see for more info https://github.com/amirouche/copernic/ (even if that code is in python as of yet)
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2020-12-08T13:17:27Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-08T13:17:36Z wasamasa: sometimes I do get the impression you don't believe in scheme
2020-12-08T13:17:36Z amirouche: the RFCs are not interesting AFAIU, but the bigthink interview is less technical but more interesting.
2020-12-08T13:17:47Z amirouche: wasamasa: I do, but...
2020-12-08T13:17:56Z amirouche: I had a low moment...
2020-12-08T13:18:02Z wasamasa: it happens
2020-12-08T13:18:10Z wasamasa: a lapse of judgement
2020-12-08T13:18:33Z wasamasa: I've had one recently, considering the implementation language choice in a mistaken belief my work will end up popular
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2020-12-08T13:21:04Z amirouche: so did I, and prolly will do again. Especially, since python looks like my confidence lock programming language. Scheme is not difficult but with the implementation I use, Chez Scheme, even tiny project needs some libraries that do not exists yet. Sometime plumbing together poorly written code provide satisfaction.
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2020-12-08T13:37:09Z mdhughes: What libraries are you not finding? thunderchez gives me almost everything I've been needing.
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2020-12-08T13:42:16Z aeth: I mean, if you're comparing it to Python, there's few languages that can compete on libraries. Maybe just JavaScript.
2020-12-08T13:43:16Z mdhughes: Oh, sure, when I need random-glue-code, Python's often the choice, even if it's slow and getting exponentially slower on modern CPUs.
2020-12-08T13:43:57Z mdhughes: But mostly I can solve my problems in Chez. Sometimes have to add a few functions to my library, or FFI in some dumb C library.
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2020-12-08T14:20:20Z aeth: Python's not actually getting slower, it's just that a lot of that annual "15%" IPC improvement in benchmarks is just SIMD stuff that Python's interpreter will never directly access.
2020-12-08T14:24:24Z mdhughes: CPUs are mostly stagnant on single-core (Apple's M1 is a nice boost… but it's not going to get a lot faster), all the improvement is multicore, which Python can't take advantage of.
2020-12-08T14:26:42Z mdhughes: Best case in Python now is you fork a bunch of processes, if you have a data set that's easily divided among them and collated later, which is not that common.
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2020-12-08T14:49:46Z aeth: mdhughes: Apple's M1 isn't a "nice boost".
2020-12-08T14:50:29Z aeth: It's basically the same as AMD's. It's intentionally being compared to prior generation Apple laptops, which have all used (poorly cooled) Intel.
2020-12-08T14:50:57Z aeth: mdhughes: However, given a few generations, they might be able to out "more core" AMD at the "more core" game.
2020-12-08T14:51:55Z aeth: Meanwhile, AMD's comparable CPUs are currently limited to 8 cores.
2020-12-08T15:01:37Z aeth: All Apple needs to do to change everything is offer 16+4 cores in the mainstream market segment.
2020-12-08T15:04:59Z Riastradh: Maybe we can turn the conversation from armchair punditry about CPU design and back to Scheme?
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2020-12-08T15:17:31Z ecraven: I'm pondering an s-expression syntax for javascript, and things have gone all wonky with es6 and beyond.. javascript used to have a really nice and simple syntax, but not so any longer :-/
2020-12-08T15:17:47Z ecraven: it would be nice to be able to run the same code backend and frontend, both "Scheme" ;)
2020-12-08T15:18:07Z ecraven: parenscript already does this to a certain extent, I believe
2020-12-08T15:24:38Z shawnw: Perl and tcl are nice for random-glue-code.
2020-12-08T15:28:30Z gwatt: ecraven: which new things do you not like? I can think of async/await, arrow functions, ... and that's all off the top of my head
2020-12-08T15:31:03Z ecraven: it's not about liking or disliking, it just makes for ... messy ... syntax ;)
2020-12-08T15:31:12Z ecraven: let / const / var, export / export default
2020-12-08T15:31:18Z ecraven: all the slicing and splicing
2020-12-08T15:34:17Z wasamasa: imagine not having control over visibility
2020-12-08T15:34:36Z wasamasa: everything you define is exported
2020-12-08T15:34:38Z gwatt: I guess I don't really mind let/const. var was always there. Nor do I mind the splicing. It's better than having to write shallow copy impls.
2020-12-08T15:35:30Z ecraven: gwatt: I agree that it's good to have them, but (the bad old) javascript used to be a very simple language (in terms of syntax)
2020-12-08T15:40:06Z jcowan: Scheme: the language in which *all* procedures are async!
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2020-12-08T15:46:28Z gwatt: jcowan: how do you figure that?
2020-12-08T15:47:42Z remby: are command line arguments are totally up to each scheme implementation?
2020-12-08T15:47:46Z jcowan: Because call/cc allows cooperative threading.  Async is a hack to do CPS conversion, but in Scheme everything is CPS converted (or appears to be, whatever may happen behind the scenes)
2020-12-08T15:48:55Z jcowan: remby: Both R6RS and R7RS standardize a procedure `command-line` which takes no arguments and returns a list of strings.
2020-12-08T15:50:05Z remby: thanks, I didn't see it in the r6rs doc
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2020-12-08T15:57:47Z mdhughes: shawnw: I can't FFI the sane way from Tcl, would have to write the program C-outside and launch a script, and it's horribly slow. Perl would work, but it's perl.
2020-12-08T16:00:54Z shawnw: You can actually embed C code directly in a tcl script.
2020-12-08T16:01:28Z shawnw: And it's faster than python in my experience.
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2020-12-08T16:19:48Z jcowan: CPython is implemented using the stupidest possible algorithms short of bogosort, so that it will be simple, reliable, and highly portable.
2020-12-08T16:20:58Z jcowan: Slow comes with the territory.
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2020-12-08T17:52:02Z remby: when you define something is it evaluated right away?
2020-12-08T17:56:11Z remby: yup eager evaluation
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2020-12-08T18:05:09Z amirouche: mdhughes: what i need is: libtls or openssl bindings, foundationdb bindings, and libuv bindings would be nice to have too
2020-12-08T18:05:13Z amirouche: from the top of my head.
2020-12-08T18:05:29Z amirouche: Tho, any time I think of a quick hack, it missing one or more of the above
2020-12-08T18:06:21Z amirouche: a termbox-like library that is async...
2020-12-08T18:10:08Z amirouche: ecraven: what about chibi on wasm and gambit js backend ?
2020-12-08T18:11:46Z amirouche: ecraven: https://pre-srfi.github.io/webui/demos/03-todomvc/
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2020-12-08T18:22:02Z amirouche: honestly, it is not only a problem with scheme itself, it is also a problem with me.
2020-12-08T18:23:36Z amirouche: One of the quick hack I wanted to do is: tiny feed reader. I keep trying to make it useful beyond myself => feature creep, which eventualy lead me to reconsider doing that tiny project.
2020-12-08T18:24:30Z amirouche: In fact, all I need is to call is easycurl or even call curl in the command line... so it is possible to make do it in afternoon.
2020-12-08T18:33:53Z amirouche: My deep tought is that I have the "what comes next?" curse.
2020-12-08T18:34:03Z amirouche: it is somewhat like the senior developer curse.
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2020-12-08T19:00:09Z mdhughes: My policy is always to just make a dumb prototype. If I like it, I might develop it further and ship it. If not, I still got something done.
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2020-12-08T19:01:03Z mdhughes: Planning beyond a week ahead or beyond immediate needs is stupid, it never works out like that, and wastes effort.
2020-12-08T19:01:43Z Riastradh: Dumb prototypes are great -- immediate feedback of interacting with a dumb prototype is good for getting dopamine, and if it doesn't work out you can throw it away without feeling too committed.
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2020-12-09T13:58:40Z srandon111: guys is there any book for scheme similar to Practical Common Lisp ? but not for racket
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2020-12-09T14:50:07Z jcowan: sookablyat: I asked Seibel once about creating a derivative book, but he doesn't have the rights and he doesn't think the publisher would be interested.
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2020-12-09T15:07:54Z sookablyat: jcowan, Seibel? whos is it ?
2020-12-09T15:08:02Z sookablyat: what rights?
2020-12-09T15:11:08Z jcowan: The author of Practical Common Lisp, and the copyright (which dictates who can allow the creation of a derivative work).
2020-12-09T15:15:23Z sookablyat: jcowan, wow that's sad of how these things work... it's like he wrote the entire stuff but does not have the right to write similar stuff
2020-12-09T15:15:24Z sookablyat: wow
2020-12-09T15:16:42Z jcowan: Publishers typically buy derivative rights so they can make money off translations or movies; neither applies here
2020-12-09T15:16:52Z jcowan: But it's simpler just to buy all rights in any case.
2020-12-09T15:18:03Z aeth: It would be very illegal if someone made a Practical Airship Scheme website when Airship Scheme is incomplete. No one should do it.
2020-12-09T15:20:19Z jcowan: Hardly illegal.  Inadvisable, yes.
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2020-12-09T15:40:13Z shawnw: I would watch Practical Common Lisp: The Movie.
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2020-12-09T15:53:10Z GewaltDisney: ok, hope i'm not igniting a flame here, but for seasoned schemers, what aspects of racket do you *not* like
2020-12-09T16:03:03Z jcowan: An implementation forms a tribe around it, and I don't like some of the Racket tribe much.
2020-12-09T16:03:56Z jcowan: See https://wingolog.org/archives/2008/07/10/how-to-choose-between-equivalent-options
2020-12-09T16:04:49Z jcowan: see also https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations up to comment #32.
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2020-12-09T16:08:49Z GewaltDisney: jcowan, thanks! i've read a bit of Wingo's blog, but didn't before see this
2020-12-09T16:09:28Z GewaltDisney: interesting to hear that the tribe is sometimes just as important as the implementation itself
2020-12-09T16:09:39Z jcowan: Very much so.
2020-12-09T16:10:08Z jcowan: People often comment on #chicken about how friendly the community is.
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2020-12-09T16:11:13Z jcowan: I feel like the Racket movers and shakers don't see why anyone should use or work on any Scheme but Racket.
2020-12-09T16:12:45Z GewaltDisney: yeah, that type of attitude can be pretty frustrating, especially if its to the effect of "party unity"
2020-12-09T16:13:39Z shawnw: Scheme's biggest issue is how dang many implementations there are.
2020-12-09T16:14:30Z shawnw: Hard to choose. People tend to pick one and stick with it, and Racket's good at getting its name out there for people to pick.
2020-12-09T16:14:59Z jcowan: That's why I point people to the 2013 Wingo post, including the non-spam comments.
2020-12-09T16:15:22Z GewaltDisney: yeah, i was looking at some stats of how big various language userbases are and Scheme suprisingly polled above Rust. i assume thats due to how personal variations of Scheme are
2020-12-09T16:15:23Z gwatt: jcowan: idk, the racket tribe seems to have embraced the chez tribe as well
2020-12-09T16:15:39Z jcowan: Rather, they are using its fruits.
2020-12-09T16:15:57Z jcowan: "Given how much Chez has given Racket, what has Racket given Chez?"  "Racket."
2020-12-09T16:16:37Z jcowan: (to be fair, some of Racket's patches to Chez have widened what Chez provides.)
2020-12-09T16:16:38Z GewaltDisney: is there an implementation of scheme that is more popular for exploring foundational mathematics and their intersection with compsci?
2020-12-09T16:17:44Z GewaltDisney: this is what has peaked my interest in Scheme, after being primarily a C++ person (by trade, i hate C++) for the last decade
2020-12-09T16:18:40Z jcowan: Not in my scope to answer that.
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2020-12-09T16:27:45Z lortabac: GewaltDisney: there is a book called "The little typer", I think it's a good introduction to the topic
2020-12-09T16:29:29Z GewaltDisney: yes! i have it, its what originally made me say to myself "i need to learn scheme". but I decided I should finish SICP and the othe "little schemer" books first
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2020-12-09T18:03:44Z mdhughes: GewaltDisney: Racket's slow. It's getting better, but it's still not usable for me.
2020-12-09T18:04:17Z mdhughes: GewaltDisney: https://gitlab.com/mdhughes/gridtest-racket is 10-100x slower than similar code in Chez or Chicken.
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2020-12-09T18:05:30Z mdhughes: The DR Racket REPL is an abomination: It destroys your state every time you update the editor, so you can't build up a test case "conversation", you have to start over. Command-line racket works normally.
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2020-12-09T18:35:33Z jcowan: Note that Racket CS isn't meant to be faster than Racket BC ("before Chez")
2020-12-09T18:35:39Z jcowan: it's meant to be more maintainable
2020-12-09T18:39:51Z mdhughes: Either way it doesn't help me make little adventure games.
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2020-12-09T19:42:38Z GewaltDisney: mdhughes thanks, its been difficult assessing racket's speed from the more common microbenchmarks, which only tell you a microframent of the story. speed is a big concern for me because i work as a new media installation artist, which is what has ultimately kept me chained to c and c++. with Scheme, its 85% for social-intellectual fulfillment (in the sense of intellectual exploration that someone else may find useful/helpful/liber
2020-12-09T19:42:38Z GewaltDisney: and 15% "maybe I can gradually transition my commercial work from c to scheme". Racket feels slow, but a lot of the benchmarks say otherwise. But for now, the way it acts as a sort of hub for experiemental PLT is what has me attracted to it. Guile would probably be next, for ideological reasons and Andy Wingo is an inspiring progressive programmer who makes you want dig in
2020-12-09T19:43:39Z wasamasa: does ideology trump incomprehensible errors though
2020-12-09T19:44:39Z wasamasa: if you want to answer the performance thing seriously, write code representative of your workload and use it to benchmark the options
2020-12-09T19:46:12Z GewaltDisney: i haven't spent time with Guile but I would say -- no, they drive me nuts!
2020-12-09T19:46:14Z mdhughes: I find Chez with SDL2 is really nice, and Chicken has SDL2 and several other graphics APIs. It's pretty easy to use C FFI from either.
2020-12-09T19:46:57Z amirouche: fwiw, i tried guile with c bindings, is much slower than chez... among other benchmark comparisons I did.
2020-12-09T19:47:00Z wasamasa: https://depp.brause.cc/tools/adf2mp3.scm is a demo of how to speed up a hot loop in CHICKEN
2020-12-09T19:47:26Z mdhughes: Yeah, Guile's a glue language, not really usable for making applications.
2020-12-09T19:47:39Z amirouche: GewaltDisney: you do not rely on threads media thing?
2020-12-09T19:47:48Z amirouche: GewaltDisney: you do not rely on threads for your media thing?
2020-12-09T19:48:03Z amirouche: because I think POSIX thread support in racket is a new thing...
2020-12-09T19:48:19Z gwatt: mdhughes: How do you figure that?
2020-12-09T19:49:12Z GewaltDisney: i do, but that gets back to my point that racket is 85% for intellectual fulfillment, meaning that i'm not really expecting to get anything out of it beyond that, if i can, awesome
2020-12-09T19:49:19Z mdhughes: Just performance. I expect any graphical program (whether game, utility, WYSIWYG word processor, whatever) to update 30-60 fps.
2020-12-09T19:50:05Z GewaltDisney: mdhughes, for me minimum
2020-12-09T19:50:05Z mdhughes: Even if you offload all the drawing into C code, the logic's going to be much slower in Guile than a faster compiled Scheme.
2020-12-09T19:50:40Z amirouche: yeah my nstore benchmark was mostly c, still 2 to 3 times faster with chez, (and chez was as fast as C)
2020-12-09T19:50:48Z GewaltDisney: i am hoping to create a higher level vulkan library in whatever scheme i decide on, and hoping that can a quasi-workaround for performance issues
2020-12-09T19:52:21Z amirouche: as fast as C without caching ;)
2020-12-09T19:55:22Z mdhughes: Non-graphical work in most Schemes is reasonable speed, even for a dynamic GC language. Chicken's UTF-8 strings are appallingly slow. Most Scheme hashtable implementations could use some performance work.
2020-12-09T19:55:52Z gwatt: GewaltDisney: I'd say just pick a scheme and go for it.
2020-12-09T19:57:15Z gwatt: mdhughes: at least in chez, you get much better performance if you make the hashtable big from the start.
2020-12-09T19:57:32Z wasamasa: GewaltDisney: lol, high expectations much
2020-12-09T19:58:00Z mdhughes: Yeah. I've also fooled around with making my own hashtable again, but Chez's are usually fine for my needs, they're mostly just caches.
2020-12-09T19:58:05Z wasamasa: GewaltDisney: the first thing you write being a vulkan wrapper and then writing ten times as much code as with opengl?
2020-12-09T19:58:13Z GewaltDisney: thanks everyone for the input i actually have to crash as its late here (i live in asia)
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2020-12-09T21:42:19Z jobol: hi all, question: does a standard NOP exist in standard scheme (lambda x #f)? What is its name?
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2020-12-09T21:44:16Z Riastradh: That's as good a name as any for it!
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2020-12-09T21:58:05Z amirouche: jobol: no
2020-12-09T21:58:19Z amirouche: jobol: what will you do with that?
2020-12-09T22:02:44Z jobol: amirouche, nothing that is obvious. however I sometime use it in algorithm in more than one pass
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2020-12-09T22:14:26Z [d]_: <a​mirouche#0000> jobol: no
2020-12-09T22:14:26Z [d]_: <a​mirouche#0000> [edit]:
2020-12-09T22:14:27Z [d]_: <a​mirouche#0000> jobol: what will you do with that?
2020-12-09T22:14:28Z [d]_: <a​mirouche#0000> [edit]:
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2020-12-09T22:33:00Z mdhughes: Just keep adding _ until it works.
2020-12-09T22:34:25Z Riastradh: uh
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2020-12-10T00:10:01Z duncanm: hello hello
2020-12-10T00:10:02Z duncanm: dum de dum
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2020-12-10T08:30:39Z MarredHen: Greetings~
2020-12-10T08:30:45Z MarredHen: I"m about to lose my goddamn mind.
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2020-12-10T08:37:11Z amirouche: why?
2020-12-10T08:37:38Z MarredHen: I tried to install and use an older version of Mit-scheme that was windows compatible
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2020-12-10T08:38:03Z MarredHen: The thing was so arcane it felt I was trying to program from an 80s mainframe without the manual.
2020-12-10T08:38:10Z MarredHen: I switched to DrRacket
2020-12-10T08:39:30Z mdhughes: I don't really like it, but edwin *does* have a pretty good tutorial. If you follow along and take notes, you can be productive in it in a day or two.
2020-12-10T08:40:15Z mdhughes: DR Racket has the problem (as I broken record about) that it destroys your REPL every time you save, so you can't build up a test environment and do iterative development.
2020-12-10T08:40:40Z MarredHen: Whats REPL
2020-12-10T08:40:52Z mdhughes: Read-Eval-Print Loop, the interactive > prompt
2020-12-10T08:41:24Z mdhughes: In a normal Scheme or LISP, you define stuff as you go, write and test your functions there, and then copy them out into your editor.
2020-12-10T08:41:46Z MarredHen: Oh so like I write (- 20 10) it works, ok lets copy paste it in the main file?
2020-12-10T08:41:47Z mdhughes: edwin is the reverse, you work in an editor, and C-x C-e to run things in the environment, so you never lose anything.
2020-12-10T08:42:28Z mdhughes: Yeah, and when you do that it destroys your old (- 20 10), except that might be dozens of variable bindings and functions you've written.
2020-12-10T08:43:21Z mdhughes: racket from the shell works normally, but then you're back to copying your functions out to your editor.
2020-12-10T08:43:40Z MarredHen: ...hold on, you mean to tell me that the an expression that works copy pasted into a wider compound procedure is bound to not work for some reason?
2020-12-10T08:43:54Z mdhughes: What.
2020-12-10T08:44:16Z MarredHen: I may have misunderstood what you said.
2020-12-10T08:45:16Z mdhughes: Yeah. When you write Scheme, say you've written (define x 10), (define (foo y) (+ y 10)), and then (foo x) gives you 20.
2020-12-10T08:45:48Z MarredHen: Makes sense.
2020-12-10T08:46:01Z mdhughes: But in DR Racket, when you copy (define (foo y) (+ y 10)) up to your file and save, it destroys x.
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2020-12-10T08:46:45Z mdhughes: So now you can't do (foo x) again, you have to redefine all your data. foo will be there, because you put it in the file.
2020-12-10T08:47:14Z mdhughes: And that might be a considerable amount of stuff you've set up.
2020-12-10T08:48:03Z MarredHen: Cant I copy paste the entire thing into a new file?
2020-12-10T08:48:27Z MarredHen: Or does something change within the syntax of the program itself?
2020-12-10T08:48:29Z mdhughes: Sure, but you don't usually want test data in your program.
2020-12-10T08:48:35Z MarredHen: Oh.
2020-12-10T08:49:53Z MarredHen: Alright, so, what are you suggetions for doing DrRacket while trying to learn SICP
2020-12-10T08:50:02Z MarredHen: Am I in the position of a kid with a PS1 and no save card?
2020-12-10T08:50:27Z mdhughes: You can use `racket` from command line, copy-paste for the parts you want to keep.
2020-12-10T08:50:50Z MarredHen: Er, can you elaborate that phrase, I'm afraid I dont get it
2020-12-10T08:51:46Z mdhughes: Well, you know how to open a shell (I guess CMD.EXE if you're on Windows)? Do that, CD into whatever work folder you use, then type racket
2020-12-10T08:52:38Z MarredHen: Alright~ give me a second dear.
2020-12-10T08:53:46Z mdhughes: And use an editor (Notepad's bad for this, I dunno what they use, Notepad++?)
2020-12-10T08:54:39Z MarredHen: Welcome to Racket
2020-12-10T08:54:47Z MarredHen: So I can code in scheme in CMD?
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2020-12-10T08:55:02Z MarredHen: I assume I can write a bat file to just start it up imminently
2020-12-10T08:55:09Z mdhughes: Well, in racket in cmd, yes. Just typing into cmd won't do anything.
2020-12-10T08:55:22Z MarredHen: Yes, I see.
2020-12-10T08:55:25Z MarredHen: What if I want to save my work?
2020-12-10T08:55:44Z MarredHen: Or is the CMD enviroment purely to check on expressions?
2020-12-10T08:55:51Z MarredHen: CMD racket*
2020-12-10T08:55:56Z mdhughes: There you copy just like any other program, paste into the editor.
2020-12-10T08:56:05Z MarredHen: I see
2020-12-10T08:57:09Z mdhughes: I barely know how to Windows, but I assume it scrolls back up? I don't know if racket keeps a log file.
2020-12-10T08:57:33Z MarredHen: CMD does not allow for copy pasting or scrolling back up.
2020-12-10T08:57:47Z MarredHen: So I 'll have to write first on a txt, see if it works in CMD racket, then paste into editor
2020-12-10T08:57:49Z MarredHen: I can do that.
2020-12-10T08:59:15Z MarredHen: Alright, time to do SICP
2020-12-10T09:00:17Z mdhughes: And in racket, you can (load "filename.rkt") to load some file into the REPL.
2020-12-10T09:00:25Z MarredHen: http://prntscr.com/vzlirm
2020-12-10T09:00:27Z MarredHen: ???????
2020-12-10T09:00:37Z mdhughes: It must have some copy-paste in CMD, dunno how.
2020-12-10T09:00:59Z MarredHen: Is this what programming is like
2020-12-10T09:01:06Z mdhughes: Yes. The _ is not allowed
2020-12-10T09:01:08Z MarredHen: A herculean task even to get the thing started.
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2020-12-10T09:01:21Z MarredHen: Oh
2020-12-10T09:01:34Z MarredHen: Ohhh, pardon me, my mistake.
2020-12-10T09:01:34Z mdhughes: It never gets easier, but you get to do more while being just as frustrated.
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2020-12-10T09:04:32Z sgibber2018: What version of windows are you using?
2020-12-10T09:04:39Z sgibber2018: I heard they have a real terminal now.
2020-12-10T09:04:54Z sgibber2018: Might be a viable alternative.
2020-12-10T09:06:28Z MarredHen: Windows 7, 64x
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2020-12-10T09:09:17Z mdhughes: Also, you can start racket with `racket -fi filename.rkt` (no quotes) to get it to load and give you a REPL
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2020-12-10T09:11:43Z mdhughes: I have not found any way to get a history file from it. I know I've fought with this before, but can't remember if I solved it or not.
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2020-12-10T09:25:06Z MarredHen: I'll inform you if anything comes up. For now, thank you~
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2020-12-10T09:35:49Z mdhughes: You're welcome, and welcome to scheming.
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2020-12-10T12:42:59Z MarredHen: A but if a trivial point but is my reading of what a recursive evaluation of a problem: its simply taking the problem, invoking it, then breaking it down into smaller problems.
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2020-12-10T15:54:00Z jcowan: MarredHen: Yes, until you can't any more, and then you hopefully have a trivial problem (the "base case") that you know the answer to.
2020-12-10T15:55:44Z jcowan: So in the recursive algorithm for factorial (a terrible algorithm for actual use, BTW), you depend on the fact that n! is n * (n-1)!, which is the recursion, and 0! = 1, which is the base case.
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2020-12-10T22:50:42Z amirouche: my current status summarized in two pictures https://i.redd.it/enfjwk9d0lq41.jpg
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2020-12-11T05:44:40Z MarredHen: http://prntscr.com/w09hg4
2020-12-11T05:44:43Z MarredHen: Suddenly ti does this?
2020-12-11T05:45:25Z MarredHen: Oh I have to put it in brackets
2020-12-11T05:46:26Z remby: MarredHen: what is ti?
2020-12-11T05:46:44Z MarredHen: I have Racket on CMD, doing beginner stuff
2020-12-11T05:46:51Z MarredHen: I solved it, nevermind.
2020-12-11T05:46:56Z imode: misspelling of it.
2020-12-11T05:46:58Z wasamasa: give them a hug
2020-12-11T05:47:02Z wasamasa: with parentheses
2020-12-11T05:48:02Z MarredHen: I will!
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2020-12-11T05:50:22Z remby: anyone use chez?
2020-12-11T05:55:57Z remby: nvm just reading the manual
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2020-12-11T11:03:04Z MarredHen: Oh, so I came across a thing.
2020-12-11T11:05:54Z MarredHen: http://prntscr.com/w0g7jm
2020-12-11T11:06:00Z MarredHen: Is the 'else' part here a part of the cond?
2020-12-11T11:07:53Z mange: Yup! It represents a test that always passes, and has to be the last branch in the cond.
2020-12-11T11:10:41Z MarredHen: I see
2020-12-11T11:10:56Z MarredHen: The nesting here could be confusing, if I didnt know else was part of the cond
2020-12-11T11:12:55Z mange: It's the same as the other branches in the cond, though. It's similar to if you had (define else #t) somewhere earlier, then used else here.
2020-12-11T11:13:15Z MarredHen: Ohhh, I get it
2020-12-11T11:13:45Z MarredHen: Can I use defines in conds?
2020-12-11T11:15:09Z mange: Sorry, I don't understand the question. Can you give me more detail about what you mean?
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2020-12-11T13:06:42Z mdhughes: The test for each case can be any expression, if it evaluates #f it doesn't match, anything else does.
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2020-12-11T13:53:46Z tisskenzen: if a define-syntax form is written in another define-syntax form, is the former visible only to the latter, or is it defined globally?
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2020-12-11T14:06:36Z tisskenzen: and the answer for my case is yes. thanks everyone.
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2020-12-11T14:42:52Z Riastradh: Doesn't have to be -- but if it is, you should only use the cond for side effects, not for value.
2020-12-11T14:43:01Z Riastradh: oops
2020-12-11T14:43:04Z Riastradh: was scrolled up
2020-12-11T14:43:06Z Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh
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2020-12-11T15:20:46Z amirouche: a new gauche release: https://practical-scheme.net/gauche/gmemo/?Release%200.9.10
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2020-12-11T19:27:10Z siraben: amirouche: nice, time for me to update the version in Nixpkgs!
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2020-12-11T23:28:09Z jcowan: Riastradh: I think that it was you that told me about the universal dictionary lookup/update primitive <dict>-search(!).  If that's correct, can you tell me if the original idea for the update continuation was for the new key to always be the same (in the sense of the equality function) as the old, or if it could be anything?
2020-12-11T23:38:01Z Riastradh: always same as old -- point is to avoid repeating the search operation to figure out where it goes
2020-12-12T00:04:10Z Zipheir: Aha.
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2020-12-12T00:10:43Z Zipheir: So the SRFIs that provide -search never picked up that particular restriction.
2020-12-12T00:11:14Z Riastradh: Well that makes the whole exercise rather pointless.
2020-12-12T00:11:38Z Riastradh: World's most complicated lookup API that you have to define in terms of the simpler ones!
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2020-12-12T00:31:13Z Zipheir: Indeed.
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2020-12-12T01:38:05Z MarredH: http://prntscr.com/w0wydu
2020-12-12T01:38:29Z MarredH: Can I have more then one predicate, or do I have ot chain nots together
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2020-12-12T02:17:49Z Zipheir: MarredH: Can you give an example?
2020-12-12T02:18:22Z MarredH: (Not (e1)(e2)...(en))
2020-12-12T02:18:26Z MarredH: Is this how I make multiple nots?
2020-12-12T02:19:17Z Zipheir: Do you mean "is that how to write an expression which is true if all of the (en) expressions are false"?
2020-12-12T02:19:47Z Zipheir: not takes exactly one argument, so that won't work.
2020-12-12T02:21:33Z Zipheir: Using de Morgan, you can write (not (or e1 e2 e3)) to do that.  If that's indeed what you want.
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2020-12-12T02:26:43Z MarredH: I see.
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2020-12-12T04:07:30Z MarredH: http://prntscr.com/w0yk3x
2020-12-12T04:07:38Z MarredH: Em... ok this is way harder then I imagined
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2020-12-12T04:12:12Z mange: Which part are you finding the hardest?
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2020-12-12T04:12:44Z MarredH: Its not the scheme part, I can write whatever in scheme, its the mathematics of the above question
2020-12-12T04:12:59Z MarredH: What if one of the numbers is 0, or two of them are the same
2020-12-12T04:14:34Z jcowan: Riastradh: Thanks
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2020-12-12T04:14:56Z mange: If I asked which are "the two larger numbers" for these sets, what would you answer? (a) {-3, 0, 2}; (b) {2, 3, 3}; (c) {1, 1, 1}
2020-12-12T04:15:33Z MarredH: 0 and 2, 3 and 3, and any number
2020-12-12T04:15:50Z MarredH: Wait is this just a If a =< b or c check?
2020-12-12T04:20:06Z MarredH: Er, in scheme, its <= or =<?
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2020-12-12T04:27:50Z Zipheir: <= in Scheme.
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2020-12-12T04:31:18Z MarredH: I see.
2020-12-12T04:31:36Z MarredH: http://prntscr.com/w0ytct
2020-12-12T04:31:38Z MarredH: Huh
2020-12-12T04:31:45Z MarredH: I forgot to add the cond predicate and eh
2020-12-12T04:32:03Z MarredH: What would happen if
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2020-12-12T04:32:40Z MarredH: So, a cond has expressions and its consequents
2020-12-12T04:32:56Z MarredH: The expression is (p1) and the consequent is (e1)
2020-12-12T04:33:28Z MarredH: If we want to have more then one expressions being counted, we have the AND, if we want to just have "if one of this expressions is true" we add the OR
2020-12-12T04:34:25Z MarredH: What would happen if in the expression p1 I added more then one arguement
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2020-12-12T04:36:36Z MarredH: http://prntscr.com/w0yvah I did it btw
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2020-12-12T05:17:57Z mdhughes: So first, you should pull out common operations like the largest. And there's a built-in function to do that…
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2020-12-12T06:43:23Z Zipheir: MarredH: Why do you have AND?  Case-insensitive old-school Scheme?
2020-12-12T06:43:44Z MarredH: Er, what? I'm afriad I dont understand dear
2020-12-12T06:44:09Z Zipheir: All-caps `and'.
2020-12-12T06:44:21Z MarredH: is that bad?
2020-12-12T06:45:33Z Zipheir: Is it a different form than the built-in form?
2020-12-12T06:47:46Z Zipheir: While some Schemes still provide a case-insensitive mode, most will consider AND/and to be distinct.
2020-12-12T06:50:23Z MarredH: I havent noticed unfortunetely, so far both seem to work
2020-12-12T06:51:14Z Zipheir: Ah, ok.  Which Scheme are you using?
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2020-12-12T06:59:59Z MarredH: DrRacket?
2020-12-12T07:00:02Z MarredH: I dont remember.
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2020-12-12T08:12:06Z MarredH: Er, silly question, but
2020-12-12T08:12:12Z MarredH: Say I have " (define (sqrt-iter guess x)"
2020-12-12T08:12:20Z MarredH: Sqrt-iter is the name, guess and x are variables
2020-12-12T08:21:32Z siraben: sqrt-iter uses Newton's method right?
2020-12-12T08:24:23Z amirouche: MarredH: yes
2020-12-12T08:24:32Z MarredH: siraben, trying to
2020-12-12T08:24:35Z MarredH: Its baking my brain
2020-12-12T08:25:22Z siraben: MarredH: yeah that sounds right
2020-12-12T08:25:41Z mdhughes: guess & x are bound names, same kind of thing as variables (which usually just means (define x ...) at top level).
2020-12-12T08:25:43Z MarredH: Im not giving up tho.
2020-12-12T08:26:59Z siraben: MarredH: do you understand the body sqrt-iter?
2020-12-12T08:27:01Z siraben: body of*
2020-12-12T08:27:32Z MarredH: I'm trying to understand newton's method first
2020-12-12T08:27:39Z MarredH: Before I try to chop it up so I can program it in scheme
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2020-12-12T12:15:15Z amirouche: I finally bought LiSP via amazon on kindle, there's a large amount of reference plus historical notes
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2020-12-12T15:02:14Z MarredH: http://prntscr.com/w173w6 ???
2020-12-12T15:02:16Z MarredH: What does this mean
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2020-12-12T15:15:53Z MarredH: I cant do nested definition in Drracket
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2020-12-12T15:30:09Z MarredH: No wait I figured it out
2020-12-12T15:30:12Z MarredH: Huh???? wow
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2020-12-12T15:52:35Z wasamasa: lack of indentation makes this hard to read
2020-12-12T15:52:53Z wasamasa: and racket is being an ass about iterative development
2020-12-12T15:53:28Z wasamasa: besides, why take a screenshot of plain text
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2020-12-12T15:57:10Z siraben: MarredH: you should use a paste service
2020-12-12T15:57:35Z MarredH: Apologies i will post pastebin next time
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2020-12-12T16:33:34Z mdhughes: Racket's a pain about replacing system functions, it's "safe" when most Schemes are not.
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2020-12-13T06:47:39Z remby: how would you do the Cartesian product of a list in scheme?
2020-12-13T06:58:27Z MarredH: Cartesian productr?
2020-12-13T07:01:09Z remby: yeah if I have a list (define l '(1 2 3 4)), (cartProd l) gives me ((1 . 1), (1 . 2), (1 . 3) ... (4. 4))
2020-12-13T07:01:15Z remby: MarredH: ^
2020-12-13T07:01:51Z MarredH: Oh, I'm a noob, I'm not that good at it yet
2020-12-13T07:02:45Z remby: my first Idea was the iterative approach but that proved harder than I thought to translate
2020-12-13T07:04:57Z remby: a series of nested maps would work but I can't exactly visualize it
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2020-12-13T07:32:28Z mdhughes: It's really just what you said: map over a map.
2020-12-13T07:32:43Z mdhughes: (define (cart ls)  (map (lambda (x)
2020-12-13T07:32:43Z mdhughes:                             (map (lambda (y) (list x y)) ls) ) ls))
2020-12-13T07:34:29Z edgar-rft looks at amazon for cartesian products :-)
2020-12-13T07:39:49Z remby: mdhughes: that's pretty good, what if you wanted a single list of dotted pairs?
2020-12-13T07:45:38Z mdhughes: Run it thru foldl? I always have to read SRFI-1 a while to figure out the arguments.
2020-12-13T07:46:24Z remby: ok, I'll try to give a go tomorrow, thanks for the help
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2020-12-13T07:49:34Z mdhughes: Oh, you can use append-map from srfi-1.
2020-12-13T07:49:44Z mdhughes: (define (cart ls) (append-map (lambda (x)
2020-12-13T07:49:45Z mdhughes:      (map (lambda (y) (list x y)) ls)
2020-12-13T07:49:45Z mdhughes:      ) ls))
2020-12-13T07:50:45Z mdhughes knows how to use a paste service, but it's only 2-3 lines.
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2020-12-13T09:39:03Z MarredH: Ok so
2020-12-13T09:39:11Z MarredH: I made an Achermann function
2020-12-13T09:39:19Z MarredH: I did (A 4 2)
2020-12-13T09:39:21Z MarredH: Gives me 4
2020-12-13T09:39:25Z MarredH: Oh ok I thought
2020-12-13T09:39:29Z MarredH: I gave it (A 4 3)
2020-12-13T09:39:32Z MarredH: It crashed the program
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2020-12-13T10:32:25Z amirouche: does any have exemple use of chibi generics?
2020-12-13T10:32:34Z amirouche: I can not figure how it works based on the documentation
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2020-12-13T14:08:34Z siraben: retropikzel: you can derive cartesian product via list comprehensions
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2020-12-13T14:14:13Z siraben: derivation: http://ix.io/2HQx
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2020-12-13T14:15:32Z siraben: scheme@(guile-user)> (cp '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
2020-12-13T14:15:32Z siraben: $1 = ((1 . 4) (1 . 5) (1 . 6) (2 . 4) (2 . 5) (2 . 6) (3 . 4) (3 . 5) (3 . 6))
2020-12-13T14:15:33Z siraben: LGTM
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2020-12-13T14:19:35Z siraben: slightly more optimized; (define (cp l1 l2) (append-map (lambda (a) (map (lambda (b) `(,a . ,b)) l2)) l1))
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2020-12-13T14:43:21Z mdhughes: Which is the same as the one I did above.
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2020-12-13T14:59:39Z siraben: Yeah
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2020-12-13T18:09:46Z Zipheir: tl;dr of every software company advertising on Advent of Code: "Come help us funnel FOSS tools into proprietary projects!"
2020-12-13T18:11:09Z wasamasa: gotta make money somehow
2020-12-13T18:11:45Z wasamasa: at work one manager asked for infosec ideas to receive state funding and I suggested doing tests for FLOSS projects
2020-12-13T18:11:54Z wasamasa: he reminded me that this alone isn't a sufficient business proposal
2020-12-13T18:12:19Z wasamasa: because that alone doesn't generate money
2020-12-13T18:12:47Z wasamasa: and it seems insane to me because it's common infrastructure so many people rely on
2020-12-13T18:13:05Z wasamasa: not to mention free marketing if you publicize your work properly
2020-12-13T18:13:20Z wasamasa: but what do I know about consulting
2020-12-13T18:13:44Z remby: Zipheir: how did you end up doing day 1?
2020-12-13T18:14:48Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Sounds like outdated, narrow thinking on their part.
2020-12-13T18:15:07Z wasamasa: it is because there's competitors acing this thing
2020-12-13T18:16:29Z Zipheir: remby: The easiest way to do the 3-sum part (part 2) is to build a set and test each pair of numbers to see if the right third number is in the set.
2020-12-13T18:16:59Z Zipheir: There's a little arithmetic that I'm leaving out so as not to give the whole thing away.
2020-12-13T18:17:03Z wasamasa: but I have a long way to go before I have any chance to join them
2020-12-13T18:17:11Z remby: no worries
2020-12-13T18:17:49Z remby: I'm not concerned about solving the problem, but solving it in scheme :P
2020-12-13T18:17:56Z remby: bruteforcing was not as easy xD
2020-12-13T18:18:24Z remby: but I'm gonna take a break and try my hand at packaging chez
2020-12-13T18:18:40Z Zipheir: I did it in miniKanren. :)  The Oleg-number arithmetic can be brutally slow, sometimes, unfortunately.
2020-12-13T18:19:48Z Zipheir: remby: Good approach.  The best use of AoC is to try out new languages/techniques, IMHO.
2020-12-13T18:21:54Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Maybe this is a normal phenomenon in the commercial software world, but it's so bizarre to look at a software group's pages and to not find even an example of code, because it's all "confidential".
2020-12-13T18:22:11Z wasamasa: the infosec world is big on this whole secrecy thing
2020-12-13T18:22:38Z Zipheir: Security through obscurity...
2020-12-13T18:22:52Z wasamasa: more like, competitive advantage by obscurity
2020-12-13T18:23:07Z Zipheir: I suppose.
2020-12-13T18:23:12Z wasamasa: there's who knows how many incomplete bug/exploit/patch databases you can pay for
2020-12-13T18:23:55Z wasamasa: and it's in conflict with the goal of like, improving the overall security of everything
2020-12-13T18:24:48Z Zipheir: e.g. as when Microsoft flipped out at the US government for not disclosing the stuff that made WannaCry possible.
2020-12-13T18:25:20Z wasamasa: it feels schitzo at times
2020-12-13T18:26:43Z wasamasa: I'd like to carve out a niche with something like, doing consulting for people using lisp :D
2020-12-13T18:27:48Z wasamasa: but I doubt one can live from that
2020-12-13T18:28:41Z wasamasa: as pjb said before, it's more effective to sell someone to use lisp and write it for them
2020-12-13T18:29:20Z remby: just make node in scheme and provide a c-like dsl ;)
2020-12-13T18:30:04Z Zipheir: Ugh.
2020-12-13T18:30:11Z wasamasa: so instead it's just my usual finding bugs in software I use and fixing them
2020-12-13T18:30:18Z wasamasa: be it on work or personal time
2020-12-13T18:30:39Z wasamasa: because that's what security ultimately is, a very specialized version of engineering quality
2020-12-13T18:31:45Z Zipheir: "Engineering" is part of the problem with current software design.  A start at security would be actually writing provable software.
2020-12-13T18:32:05Z wasamasa: I believe that if we were anywhere close to actual engineering, systems would be secure by side effect
2020-12-13T18:33:01Z Zipheir: The point is that it's a misnomer.  Software is not a physical object like an airplane, and you don't test equations with a wind-tunnel.
2020-12-13T18:33:13Z wasamasa: which would require fully understanding them (kind of like SICP advocates) and doing educated choices
2020-12-13T18:33:33Z wasamasa: but things are slipping further and further away (as the demise of the SICP course shows)
2020-12-13T18:33:41Z Zipheir: And not prioritizing speed/convenience over everything.
2020-12-13T18:34:27Z wasamasa: you can approximate that though, hardware for example has much more rigorous testing compared to software
2020-12-13T18:34:31Z Riastradh: Zipheir: ...how much time in aeronautical engineering do you imagine is done in wind tunnels versus in analysis and CAD design tools and software simulations?
2020-12-13T18:34:35Z wasamasa: the lower the stack you go, the higher the stakes and costs are
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2020-12-13T18:36:05Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I'm exaggerating.  The point is that engineering and programming are fundamentally different activities.
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2020-12-13T18:40:12Z Zipheir: Gilles Dowek actually makes the interesting point that a wind tunnel can be seen as an analog computer used to solve particularly difficult mathematical problems (themselves abstracted via theories of mechanics from physical phenomena).  But anyway.
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2020-12-13T18:55:34Z amirouche: "doing educated choices"... what about money
2020-12-13T18:56:03Z amirouche: I never succeed at starting a foss effort at work
2020-12-13T18:56:46Z wasamasa: the thing with risk analysis is that you can save a lot of money long-term by doing choices that may seem counter-intuitive short-term
2020-12-13T18:56:57Z wasamasa: like spending money when not strictly necessary on maintenance
2020-12-13T18:57:04Z amirouche: they consider foss software like natural resource: "it is here, let's use it" they do not consider themself to be part of the system that created it.
2020-12-13T18:57:13Z wasamasa: yeah, it's parasitism
2020-12-13T18:57:40Z amirouche: they do not even consider that if there was no foss, they would be no startup scene.
2020-12-13T18:57:42Z wasamasa: growth for the sake of growth
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2020-12-13T18:59:20Z Zipheir: It makes me wonder if rms was right about the GPL after all.
2020-12-13T18:59:33Z amirouche: how so?
2020-12-13T18:59:38Z wasamasa: what part, the GPL not going far enough?
2020-12-13T18:59:57Z wasamasa: you do know that AGPL means google won't use your code
2020-12-13T19:00:13Z Zipheir: Well, no.  I was referring to the good-ideaness of the GPL, period.
2020-12-13T19:00:53Z amirouche: the GPL itself or the foss movement?
2020-12-13T19:01:02Z Zipheir: The AGPL also can't solve the bigger problem of software-as-a-service, as the FSF themselves admits.
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2020-12-13T19:01:30Z amirouche: it depends how the juge interpret what an 'user' is.
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2020-12-13T19:01:48Z amirouche: according to the FSF an user is a human.
2020-12-13T19:01:52Z Zipheir: amirouche: The idea of viral licenses.  I'm still not fond of the idea, but it's making more sense to me lately.
2020-12-13T19:04:43Z Zipheir: Famously, the software industry is one of two well-known industries which refers to its customers as "users".
2020-12-13T19:04:56Z Zipheir: s/refers/refer/
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2020-12-13T19:17:19Z hendursaga: The other being drug dealers?
2020-12-13T19:18:42Z amirouche: yes
2020-12-13T19:20:30Z jcowan: The Ackermann functions are not primitive recursive because they grow faster than any primitive recursive function can.  You need general recursion, which amounts to unbounded loops.
2020-12-13T19:23:37Z wasamasa: hendursaga: lol
2020-12-13T19:27:51Z jcowan: Zipheir: Proof of correctness means translating a program from a reasonably intelligible formal notation into a mostly unintelligible formal notation, and in
2020-12-13T19:28:09Z jcowan: And in any case, it's translating informal requirements into *any* formal notation that's the hard part.
2020-12-13T19:29:42Z jcowan: Back in the late 50s there was an AI project called "automatic programming", the purpose of which was to allow people to express the meaning of their programs directly, thus making programming unnecessary and obsolete.  The first effort of this work was ... an assembler.
2020-12-13T19:30:19Z jcowan: Because in those days, "analysts" expressed programs in symbolic form, which "programmers" translated into plugboard connections.
2020-12-13T19:32:21Z Zipheir: We've always been struggling with the fact that people come to computing from radically different directions.  (Some "up" from hardware, some "down" from mathematics, linguistics, etc., and some from totatly different perspectives.)
2020-12-13T19:34:41Z Zipheir: Proofs of programs have come a long way, thanks to Martin-Löf, Girard, and everyone in that field since the 70s.  But it's still hard.  And formalizing informal requirements, while a good thing, is also really hard.
2020-12-13T19:38:20Z jcowan: Has any progress been made toward the second objective?
2020-12-13T19:39:50Z Zipheir: No idea.  It sounds like an interesting if Sisyphean project.
2020-12-13T19:40:49Z Zipheir: (Maybe UML is Grady Brooch's idea of this concept, but I wouldn't call that a formal language in any sense.)
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2020-12-13T19:42:02Z Zipheir: Formal UML? https://ro-che.info/ccc/29
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2020-12-13T20:27:37Z Irvise[m]: Zipheir: maybe this talk about (A)GPL helps you like the GPL even more https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L1U2KpSgk8
2020-12-13T20:28:11Z Irvise[m]: It is given by the creator of Nextcloud (cofounder of Owncloud)
2020-12-13T20:29:20Z Irvise[m]: I am all in for the MIT/BSD/Apachev2 licenses, but he does have some good points over there. I like the idea of libraries/low level programs being MIT/BSD and then the final application *GPL
2020-12-13T20:31:47Z Irvise[m]: And regarding the ability to prove programs... There is Rust with its memory model, there is Ada/Spark with its contracts going one level above, then there is the seL4 microkernel... seL4 shows why C may not be a great language to prove correctness: about ~13kLOC of C code, over 600kLOC of Isabelle :/
2020-12-13T20:33:08Z Zipheir: I can't imagine trying to prove the correctness of a C program.
2020-12-13T20:33:10Z Irvise[m]: Oh, and there is CakeML with a fully verified toolchain, but I don't think it has contracts (ala Spark)
2020-12-13T20:33:48Z Zipheir: Idris, Agda.
2020-12-13T20:34:38Z Irvise[m]: Zipheir: the Isabelle part is the formal proof... It is probably more by now. So about 46 lines of proofs for every line of C
2020-12-13T20:34:47Z Zipheir: Jeez.
2020-12-13T20:34:57Z Zipheir: Well, C has a broken type system.
2020-12-13T20:37:22Z Zipheir: Thanks for the AGPL video.  It looks interesting.
2020-12-13T20:37:29Z Irvise[m]: Zipheir: indeed. There was a talk given by the Altran people (their two top engineers in safety critical system in Ada/Spark) several years ago. They were asked about Rust (just started to get know by the community). Their answer was: "Looks great, we like it, but they screwed the type system, they went with machine interpretation, that is not great for us or anybody"
2020-12-13T20:38:14Z Zipheir: Hmm, "machine interpretation"?
2020-12-13T20:38:20Z Zipheir: As in it runs on a VM?
2020-12-13T20:38:35Z Irvise[m]: No problem. It is the one that really helped me not have a dislike towards the GPL
2020-12-13T20:40:33Z Irvise[m]: No, that the type system, in its core, it is just declaring the size in bits of the data. Ala u32, u8, etc. There is no way to refine types ala Ada "type I is range 1 .. 10;           -- constrained"
2020-12-13T20:41:40Z Zipheir: Ah.  Yeah, that's bad.
2020-12-13T20:41:58Z Zipheir: Still fundamentally just a compiler optimization.
2020-12-13T20:42:01Z Irvise[m]: Which greatly helps during runtime if no formal methods are used. Or if Spark (contracts and some goodies) is added to the mix, then static verification can take place
2020-12-13T20:46:14Z Zipheir: Except in recent extensions, ML-family languages also don't allow that kind of refinement directly.
2020-12-13T20:46:50Z Zipheir: With dependent types that's easy.
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2020-12-13T21:25:01Z amirouche: Irvise[m]: according to me the talk does not solve the problem of big or not so companies being parasits
2020-12-13T21:25:16Z amirouche: I am listenning to the questions
2020-12-13T21:26:36Z amirouche: They claim Common Clause is proprietary because it is not everybody can use the software. The point of law is not to make everybody equal, but to offer the same opportunities and that sometimes means offering more to some people.
2020-12-13T21:28:56Z amirouche: in other contexte "everybody threated as equal" is called free-speech extremism
2020-12-13T21:47:00Z Zipheir: FSF and OSI would probably agree that "no sell" licenses don't qualify as F/L/OS.
2020-12-13T21:49:34Z Zipheir: Some countries (e.g. Germany) have taken a very broad interpretation of the CC non-commercial license, such that "non-commercial" means "personal use only"--clearly not what Creative Commons intended there.  So the whole idea has pitfalls, even if it's well-intentioned.
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2020-12-13T22:02:19Z Irvise[m]: amirouche: indeed, in the QnA secction, in the first question he acknowledges that the AGPL does not solve the parasitic nature of BigTech. It makes it more difficult (forcing code to be open), but does not solve the issue.
2020-12-13T22:05:41Z Irvise[m]: And adding to what Zipheir said. Most people don't realise that preventing the commercialization of FLOSS is against the very definition (eventhough some people think the exact opposite). If a license has "you may only do X if Y", it is automatically dropped by both the FSF and OSI. The FSF and OSI do follow strict rules regarding the requirements, which some people would consider free-speech extremism.
2020-12-13T22:07:28Z Irvise[m]: I remmember that there were a few programs that had "This software may not be used in any army related activities" or similar. That got automatically criticised by the FSF/OSI and deemed not free/ open. Even if most people would agree on that term
2020-12-13T22:16:50Z jcowan: The specific case I know about was "This software may not be used by the police of South Africa."  Of course, after apartheid days were over, that particular clause no longer did what it was meant to do.
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2020-12-14T02:02:23Z gwatt: There were recently some OSS projects that decided to disallow ICE and known ICE contractors from using said projects.
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2020-12-14T02:35:37Z jcowan: Then they are not OSS projects.
2020-12-14T02:44:14Z aeth: In particular there are three FOSS definitions. FSF's free software definition, the Debian free software guidelines, and the OSI open source definition that was based off of Debian's.
2020-12-14T02:44:43Z aeth: In general, taking a license that meets the definitions (in practice, everything meets all 3) and adding restrictions will make it fail to meet the definitions.
2020-12-14T02:49:00Z Zipheir: And it's not clear that "moral" clauses will be enforced at all, so adding them both (1) gives you a weirder license and (2) probably won't do what you want.
2020-12-14T02:49:39Z aeth: Well, some are more sophisticated than that.
2020-12-14T02:49:54Z aeth: But they all just revolve around restricting who can use it. CC's NC licenses are by far the most popular
2020-12-14T02:49:56Z Zipheir: (Not to mention that getting people to not do bad things seems like a massive overextension of copyright law.)
2020-12-14T02:50:12Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-12-14T02:50:46Z Zipheir: And CC has filed a lot of amicus briefs to explain what they did and didn't intend their licenses to do, which is good.
2020-12-14T03:02:07Z aeth: to be fair, copyleft is supposed to be a subversion of copyright law, too
2020-12-14T03:04:16Z Zipheir: It seems like a plausible subversion, since it relates solely to things copyright already deals with.  But adding restraints on unrelated behaviors is going too far with the copyright-hacking, I think.
2020-12-14T03:04:50Z Zipheir: In the long run, I'd like to see some real copyright reform.
2020-12-14T03:06:58Z Zipheir: I doubt GitHub or Facebook would be particularly hurt by a return to the original 14-year-renewable-once term (although the Berne Convention won't allow such sanity).
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2020-12-14T04:02:42Z aeth: oh no, the United States could never leave an international treaty
2020-12-14T04:03:34Z foof: :O
2020-12-14T04:04:33Z aeth: Just make copyright 30 years. It's several eternities in tech, and media in general. It could only potentially hurt nonfiction books, I guess. e.g. Math books never go out of date. (But the lower level math textbooks keep releasing new editions anyway.)
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2020-12-14T04:15:38Z Zipheir: Makes sense.  And get rid of auto-copyrighting; if you didn't take the time to register, it's PD.
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2020-12-14T09:28:20Z ecraven: ;)
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2020-12-14T10:34:02Z jeko: Hello Schemers !
2020-12-14T10:34:48Z srandon111: hello comrade jeko
2020-12-14T10:35:17Z jeko: 😀️
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2020-12-14T13:27:58Z jeko: Someone is working on adventofcode.com in Scheme ?
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2020-12-14T13:41:58Z wasamasa: yeah, there's a few people doing that
2020-12-14T13:43:52Z mzan: jeko: I have done day7 and day8 in Racket
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2020-12-14T13:56:48Z jeko: mzan: cool !
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2020-12-14T16:15:25Z tatsumaru: hey guys
2020-12-14T16:15:33Z tatsumaru: what do you think about interactive programming, is it cool or just a fad?
2020-12-14T16:18:18Z tdammers: a certain degree of interactivity is good in a development workflow, yes
2020-12-14T16:18:41Z tdammers: to me, it's not a "yes or no" thing, but rather a question of how far I want to push the interactivity, and what I'm willing to sacrifice for it
2020-12-14T16:19:05Z tatsumaru: tdammers: what's the main trade-off of interactivity?
2020-12-14T16:19:33Z tdammers: depends how you do it, but usually certainty
2020-12-14T16:20:16Z tdammers: the two main things people to do make development more interactive would be partial code reloads, and faster compilation cycles
2020-12-14T16:20:44Z tdammers: partial code reloads can cause problems, because what you wrote in your editor may deviate from what you're interacting with (clojure is notorious for this)
2020-12-14T16:21:02Z tdammers: faster compilation isn't problematic in itself, but you can only do so much in a compiler while keeping it fast enough
2020-12-14T16:21:23Z tdammers: meaning that you usually give up on some potentially interesting static checks / guarantees
2020-12-14T16:23:09Z tatsumaru: so faster coding, but more bugs?
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2020-12-14T16:56:23Z wasamasa: different kind of bugs
2020-12-14T16:56:43Z wasamasa: and different time for them to show up
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2020-12-14T21:49:23Z jcowan: Faster coding always means more bugs.
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2020-12-15T00:45:04Z duncanm: Riastradh: hey hey? I'm trying to build MIT Scheme from git on my intel Mac
2020-12-15T00:45:29Z duncanm: Riastradh: the steps are a) cd src, b) ./Setup.sh, c) ./configure, d) make -j4, right?
2020-12-15T00:46:15Z Riastradh: If you have an existing native mit-scheme installation in your PATH, yes.
2020-12-15T00:47:13Z duncanm: yeah, i have that, i think, but it's failing here
2020-12-15T00:47:17Z duncanm: gcc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DMIT_SCHEME -DDEFAULT_LIBRARY_PATH=\"/usr/local/lib/mit-scheme-x86-64-12.0.50\" -I. -I. -O3  -fno-builtin-floor -Wall -Wempty-body -Wignored-qualifiers -Wimplicit-fallthrough -Wmissing-field-initializers -Wnested-externs -Woverride-init -Wpointer-arith -Wredundant-decls -Wshift-negative-value -Wstrict-prototypes -Wtype-limits -Wundef -Wuninitialized -Wwrite-strings -arch x86_64  -isysroot
2020-12-15T00:47:17Z duncanm: /Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX.sdk -fconstant-cfstrings -DSIGNAL_HANDLERS_CAN_USE_SCHEME_STACK -D_REENTRANT -Werror -o interp.o -c interp.c
2020-12-15T00:47:17Z duncanm: interp.c:832:5: error: unannotated fall-through between switch labels [-Werror,-Wimplicit-fallthrough]
2020-12-15T00:47:17Z duncanm:     case RC_INTERNAL_APPLY:
2020-12-15T00:47:17Z duncanm:     ^
2020-12-15T00:47:17Z duncanm: interp.c:832:5: note: insert '__attribute__((fallthrough));' to silence this warning
2020-12-15T00:47:43Z Riastradh: bah
2020-12-15T00:47:53Z duncanm: i did git clean -xfd before I started
2020-12-15T00:48:10Z Riastradh: On the preceding line, try changing
2020-12-15T00:48:12Z Riastradh: /* fall through */
2020-12-15T00:48:13Z Riastradh: to
2020-12-15T00:48:16Z Riastradh: /*FALLTHROUGH*/
2020-12-15T00:50:42Z duncanm: so it's a bug in the C code-gen? is interp.c generated?
2020-12-15T00:51:21Z Riastradh: interp.c is written by hand
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2020-12-15T00:52:50Z Riastradh: The issue is that the C compiler (clang, in this case?) thinks that a fallthrough is not intended.  There is no de jure standard way to say `yes, I really do mean to fall through to the next switch case', but there are some de facto standard ways to express it, so I'm guessing that maybe clang disagrees with gcc about the spelling of that comment.
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2020-12-15T00:53:35Z Riastradh: Naturally, this does not appear to be documented in clang: https://clang.llvm.org/docs/DiagnosticsReference.html#wimplicit-fallthrough
2020-12-15T00:53:57Z Riastradh: hmm
2020-12-15T00:55:01Z Riastradh: If that doesn't work, just put the line `goto internal_apply' instead of the `/* fall through */' comment; kind of silly but not a big deal.  Let me know if either of those works?
2020-12-15T00:58:15Z duncanm: this machine is kinda slow, i'm trying FALLTHROUGH now
2020-12-15T00:58:30Z Riastradh: You can just redo `make', no need to start the whole thing over.
2020-12-15T00:58:36Z Riastradh: Should pick up where it left off.
2020-12-15T00:58:54Z duncanm: oh, i tried that once, and it didn't work, so i'll try the goto next
2020-12-15T00:59:11Z Riastradh: Tried which -- FALLTHROUGH or redoing make to pick up where it left off?
2020-12-15T00:59:22Z Riastradh: or both?
2020-12-15T00:59:40Z duncanm: i changed it to FALLTHROUGH and typed make
2020-12-15T00:59:44Z Riastradh: OK
2020-12-15T00:59:53Z Riastradh: So clang is just confused and failing to recognize the comment.
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2020-12-15T01:07:18Z duncanm: so here's another case
2020-12-15T01:07:20Z duncanm: syntax.c:512:2: error: unannotated fall-through between switch labels [-Werror,-Wimplicit-fallthrough]
2020-12-15T01:09:22Z Riastradh: sigh
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2020-12-15T01:31:01Z jcowan: Riastradh: Back to the question of the -search update operation.  In my question to you, I specified "the same in the sense of the equality function".  So does that mean it's legitimate to update with a new key (e.g. if the equality function is =, the old key is 3, and the new key is 3.0)?
2020-12-15T01:34:51Z Riastradh: If you're talking about a set of things, and you have a separate operation to map an element to a key and an operation to compare two keys, sure.
2020-12-15T01:40:20Z duncanm: Riastradh: this is interesting, https://patchwork.kernel.org/project/linux-kbuild/patch/20190827004155.11366-1-natechancellor@gmail.com/
2020-12-15T01:41:41Z Riastradh: oy
2020-12-15T01:43:06Z Riastradh: To be SLIGHTLY FAIR to clang, the de facto standard mechanism implemented by gcc is a little crazy: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-10.2.0/gcc/Warning-Options.html#index-Wimplicit-fallthrough
2020-12-15T01:43:19Z Riastradh: But that rough idea has been a de facto standard for a loooooong time, so dealing with clang is gonna be a huge pain.
2020-12-15T01:46:52Z duncanm: so i think i should replace the cases of /* fall through */ with
2020-12-15T01:46:54Z duncanm:  __attribute__ ((fallthrough))
2020-12-15T01:47:13Z duncanm: cuz some of the other cases, like the one in syntax.c, there's no readily available label to goto
2020-12-15T01:47:16Z jcowan: Well, the first operation is the identity and the second is an arbitrary predicate (commutative, transitive, and reflexive, of course).  So if the predicate is =, it shouldn't affect the *structure* of the tree or hash table if 3 is replaced by 3.0.
2020-12-15T01:47:33Z Riastradh: duncanm: Yes, you can try that.
2020-12-15T01:48:02Z jcowan: OTOH, if that is not allowed, there's no reason for the update operation to accept a new key at all.
2020-12-15T01:48:17Z Riastradh: jcowan: ...why does the update operation accept a new key?
2020-12-15T01:48:54Z jcowan: I don't know.  Where does -search come from?  You pointed me somewhere and I got it from there.
2020-12-15T01:49:50Z Riastradh: I dunno, maybe <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/bb-tree.scm> or <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/skip-list.scm> or <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/hash-trie.scm>.
2020-12-15T01:51:15Z Riastradh: (called `update' there; `search' just has if-found/if-not-found continuations)
2020-12-15T01:51:26Z Riastradh: (...that is, (if-found <datum>)/(if-not-found) continuations)
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2020-12-15T01:55:51Z jcowan: Okay, the version in hash-trie doesn't have an *ignore* continuation for if-found, so it can't be the direct source.
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2020-12-15T02:05:47Z jcowan: SRFI 113 seems to be the oldest one
2020-12-15T02:07:26Z duncanm: Riastradh: hmm, do I have to make clean and run again?
2020-12-15T02:07:30Z duncanm: Bad compiled-code version in FASL File: make.com
2020-12-15T02:07:30Z duncanm: File has: compiled-code interface 3; architecture 14.
2020-12-15T02:07:30Z duncanm: Expected: compiled-code interface 4; architecture 14.
2020-12-15T02:07:38Z Riastradh: duncanm: ah
2020-12-15T02:07:42Z Riastradh: Which version of MIT Scheme are you building from?
2020-12-15T02:07:51Z Riastradh: If it's from 10, you need to do a cross-build even for Intel to Intel, sorry.
2020-12-15T02:08:04Z duncanm: i'm nbuilding git master and I have
2020-12-15T02:08:08Z duncanm:   Release 10.1.11 || Microcode 15.3 || Runtime 15.7 || SF 4.41 || LIAR/x86-64 4.118 || SOS 1.8 || XML 1.0 || Edwin 3.117
2020-12-15T02:08:11Z Riastradh: OK.
2020-12-15T02:08:16Z Riastradh: So yes, you'll need to do a cross-build --
2020-12-15T02:08:19Z duncanm: so i need to cross-build
2020-12-15T02:08:24Z Riastradh: ./configure --enable-native-code=x86-64 --enable-cross-compiling
2020-12-15T02:08:25Z duncanm: let me check my notes
2020-12-15T02:09:42Z duncanm: Riastradh: i posted the fall through patch to mit-scheme-devel
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2020-12-15T02:46:38Z duncanm: Riastradh: thanks, i got it built and running now
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2020-12-15T03:58:01Z jcowan: Riastradh: I dug out a claim that you attributed the idea of -search to Alexey Radul.
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2020-12-15T04:40:37Z Riastradh: jcowan: Quite possible.  Where did that claim come from?
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2020-12-15T09:24:47Z jeko: Hey Schemers!
2020-12-15T09:25:20Z jeko: It's a good day to write parens (unless you use Wisp hehe)
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2020-12-15T09:46:30Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-15T09:46:52Z amirouche: hey
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2020-12-15T15:26:43Z amirouche: I figured how chibi generics works \o/
2020-12-15T15:27:09Z amirouche: it is a perfect solution for what I call engines in SRFI-167
2020-12-15T15:28:21Z amirouche: I need to experiement with real code.
2020-12-15T15:29:40Z wasamasa: uh-oh
2020-12-15T15:29:42Z wasamasa: tell me more
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2020-12-15T15:43:46Z amirouche: Instead of wrapping every srfi-167 procedures inside a record <engine>, there is common okvs library made of generic procedures, layers like srfi-168, import those generic procedure and implement their behavior in terms of that. Eventually, the user will call `make-okvs/leveldb` which returns a record and which will be passed to srfi-168 procedures.
2020-12-15T15:44:06Z amirouche: the less good news, is that srfi-167 will not be compatible with the generic approach.
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2020-12-15T18:37:26Z ezekielwordswort: is there any way to access only one value from a function that returns multiple values?
2020-12-15T18:40:25Z gwatt: ezekielwordswort: you have to catch the multiple-values and then return only the value you care about
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2020-12-15T18:44:41Z ezekielwordswort: i was thinking of putting them in a list and then accessing them using car and etc... but whenever i try (list  (function-name)) it returns a list whose only element is #<unknown>
2020-12-15T18:45:03Z gwatt: does function-name normally return multiple values?
2020-12-15T18:45:41Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (call-with-values (lambda () (values 1 2 3)) (lambda (x y z) (list "the second value was:" y)))
2020-12-15T18:45:52Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2020-12-15T18:45:56Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (call-with-values (lambda () (values 1 2 3)) (lambda (x y z) (list "the second value was:" y)))
2020-12-15T18:45:59Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2020-12-15T18:46:00Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: (mcons "the second value was:" (mcons 2 '()))
2020-12-15T18:46:12Z gwatt: good ol mcons
2020-12-15T18:46:22Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (call-with-values (lambda () (values 1 2 3)) (lambda (x y z) (vector "the second value was:" y)))
2020-12-15T18:46:22Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: '#("the second value was:" 2)
2020-12-15T18:46:27Z Riastradh: there, slightly less confusing notation
2020-12-15T18:50:01Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (define-syntax nth-value(syntax-rules()((_ values-expr n)(vector-ref(call-with-values(lambda()values-expr)vector)n))))
2020-12-15T18:50:11Z rudybot: gwatt: error: with-limit: out of time
2020-12-15T18:50:17Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (define-syntax nth-value(syntax-rules()((_ values-expr n)(vector-ref(call-with-values(lambda()values-expr)vector)n))))
2020-12-15T18:50:22Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2020-12-15T18:50:33Z rudybot: gwatt: Done.
2020-12-15T18:50:36Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (nth-value (values 1 2 3 4) 0)
2020-12-15T18:50:36Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: 1
2020-12-15T18:54:07Z Zipheir: ezekielwordswort: You may be interested in https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-210/srfi-210.html
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2020-12-16T02:18:12Z mdhughes: Usually if something returns multiple values, you want all of them anyway…
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2020-12-16T03:12:44Z srandon111: mdhughes, that's partially true
2020-12-16T03:12:57Z srandon111: i do not completely agree on that mdhughes but let's discuss
2020-12-16T03:13:03Z srandon111 awaits mdhughes 
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2020-12-16T04:22:04Z Zipheir: So multiple values are used when you partially want all the values??
2020-12-16T04:25:14Z Zipheir: There is also a faction that prefers returning lists over multiple values.
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2020-12-16T04:54:45Z mdhughes: Well, just my observation. The functions I use that return values are like terminal/network input, output, error ports, a few other error, actual-data things.
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2020-12-16T06:56:48Z remby: how would you map a line delim file to a list? is that even a good idea?
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2020-12-16T07:26:15Z wasamasa: what is a line delim file?
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2020-12-16T07:29:32Z remby: a file lines seperated by newlines or commas, etc
2020-12-16T07:41:16Z wasamasa: so split the file contents by that delimiter into a list of lines, done
2020-12-16T07:46:57Z Zipheir: Heh, newline-delimited records are coming up a lot in Advent of Code this year.
2020-12-16T07:47:36Z Zipheir: One word: unfold.
2020-12-16T07:47:59Z siraben: Zipheir: ooh, which day are you on?
2020-12-16T07:48:08Z siraben: i just finished refactoring my day 16 solution
2020-12-16T07:48:14Z Zipheir: Seven, which is the most interesting one so far.
2020-12-16T07:48:15Z siraben: lots of folds and fixpoints this year!
2020-12-16T07:48:32Z Zipheir: I see you're keeping up.
2020-12-16T07:48:36Z siraben: ah great, 7 was interesting
2020-12-16T07:48:43Z siraben: yeah i've been somewhat slow the last two days though, heh
2020-12-16T07:48:55Z siraben: for 7 used Haskell's Data.Graph
2020-12-16T07:48:59Z siraben: (which was very clunky)
2020-12-16T07:49:37Z siraben: Zipheir: are you parsing in Prolog?
2020-12-16T07:49:50Z Zipheir: It seems like so far there's been a lot of parsing and not too much algorithm-designing.
2020-12-16T07:50:20Z wasamasa: hate to break it to you, but AoC is mostly about being fast at solving many boring tasks in december
2020-12-16T07:50:24Z Zipheir: Yeah, I've used SWI Prolog's DCG syntax, which is precisely Parsec.
2020-12-16T07:50:42Z Zipheir: Hah.
2020-12-16T07:50:47Z wasamasa: some of these tasks are designed to trip people up with lesser common algorithms
2020-12-16T07:50:57Z Zipheir: There are usually some interesting problems.
2020-12-16T07:51:23Z wasamasa: I think I might enjoy the intcode ones from last year or so
2020-12-16T07:51:35Z wasamasa: and I should revisit synacor to finally beat it
2020-12-16T07:51:53Z Zipheir: miniKanren has been a fun tool for some of these puzzles, although Oleg-number arithmetic is slooooow.
2020-12-16T07:52:15Z Zipheir: Oh yeah, intcode was great.
2020-12-16T07:53:29Z wasamasa: now, might be interesting to adjust scheme into something more suitable for solving the parsing tasks and take hints from perlish languages
2020-12-16T07:53:39Z wasamasa: Let over Lambda has examples of that
2020-12-16T07:53:55Z Zipheir: Like perl is a good language for parsing? :)
2020-12-16T07:54:14Z wasamasa: for writing throwaway code, sure
2020-12-16T07:54:53Z Zipheir: Well, for throwaway code, anything works.  string-split, slapdash recursive descent, etc.
2020-12-16T07:56:12Z Zipheir: We have a pretty good LALR generator https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/lalr
2020-12-16T07:56:44Z Zipheir: I still mean to add some documentation for that, once I figure out what all the (Quebecois French) comments are talking about.
2020-12-16T07:57:23Z wasamasa: that's overkill for something like this solution: https://depp.brause.cc/aoc/2017/08.rb
2020-12-16T07:57:41Z wasamasa: split by space, discard some token, convert the rest to symbols or integers
2020-12-16T07:58:25Z Zipheir: Yeah.
2020-12-16T07:58:33Z siraben: wasamasa: yeah, the problems are getting harder though, roughly
2020-12-16T07:58:45Z siraben: it's nice to have some problem solving going on every day of december, besides
2020-12-16T07:58:48Z wasamasa: and there is a certain kind of elegance to the code doing the actual emulation
2020-12-16T07:59:01Z siraben: I hope people in the US aren't losing sleep over this, heh (opens at noon for me)
2020-12-16T07:59:26Z siraben: one problem this year could be solved with Chinese Remainder Theorem
2020-12-16T07:59:29Z Zipheir: Apparently there are a lot of people in Europe grumpy about the puzzle release time.
2020-12-16T07:59:40Z siraben: I can imagine, 5 am UTC
2020-12-16T08:00:14Z siraben: there's also private leaderboards one can make and join so you compare against your peers
2020-12-16T08:00:29Z Zipheir: But I have no idea why people get so competitive about this that they begrudge the creator living in a different timezone.
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2020-12-16T08:02:36Z Zipheir: As far as I'm concerned, if there's a problem interesting enough to spend several days thinking about it and trying different approaches, that's time better spent than banging things out as quickly as possible.
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2020-12-16T08:11:02Z siraben: yeah, no AoC problem has required me to ponder for several days yet, by design, but there have been ones where naive solutions don't work
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2020-12-16T08:15:14Z siraben: Zipheir: an extra challenge would be to try to calculate solutions as much as possible
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2020-12-16T15:49:38Z jcowan: I was asked on an interview once to write a function converting Roman numerals to integers.  I asked "Up to what limit?"  "Oh, a thousand."  I immediately wrote on the whiteboard:  private String roman[1000] = {"", "I", "II", "III"
2020-12-16T15:49:48Z jcowan: I forget just how far I got before I was stopped.
2020-12-16T15:51:30Z Riastradh: <interviewer> your array is suboptimal -- you can strip out the first element and just do roman[i-1] instead. not hired.
2020-12-16T15:57:01Z mdhughes: I know LISP has a Roman option in format, does it have one in read?
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2020-12-16T15:58:01Z amirouche: you did not want the job?
2020-12-16T15:58:17Z amirouche: :)
2020-12-16T15:58:33Z Riastradh: mdhughes: https://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf#page=80
2020-12-16T15:58:45Z mdhughes: If the interviewers are fucking with you, it's legit to fuck with them back.
2020-12-16T15:58:59Z gwatt: jcowan: what were you going to do about 4 being representable by "IV" and "IIII"
2020-12-16T15:59:34Z jcowan: Nothing.
2020-12-16T15:59:57Z gwatt: fair enough
2020-12-16T16:00:07Z jcowan: Anyway, I then wrote a more traditional algorithm, though I still didn't get the job.
2020-12-16T16:00:30Z mdhughes: It's so sad that older systems were more capable. The only other language I know of with a Roman mode is Intercal.
2020-12-16T16:00:42Z mdhughes: And getting decimal values out is a challenge.
2020-12-16T16:01:01Z gwatt: isn't intercal a joke language?
2020-12-16T16:01:18Z jcowan: From the other side of the table, I often ask interviewees to write an algorithm that accepted the next number in an arbitrarily long stream of numbers (too big to all fit in memory at once) and returned the median of all previously seen numbers including this one.
2020-12-16T16:01:58Z amirouche: that it is basic math, isn't it?
2020-12-16T16:02:07Z jcowan: You might even say a drunk-language.  But the ick compiler (which generates C) exists, and is packaged with all known Intercal programs.
2020-12-16T16:02:11Z mdhughes: That depends too much on knowing one weird math trick.
2020-12-16T16:02:29Z jcowan: Hmm, which weird math trick?
2020-12-16T16:02:39Z amirouche: how to compute the median :)
2020-12-16T16:02:48Z jcowan: Oh, I explain that.
2020-12-16T16:03:01Z amirouche: the trick is several collection of numbers with the same median
2020-12-16T16:03:04Z jcowan: I even tell them they can neglect the case of fractional medians.
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2020-12-16T16:04:02Z jcowan: amirouche: I don't understand that
2020-12-16T16:04:06Z Riastradh: Exact or estimated?
2020-12-16T16:04:40Z amirouche: so one can start the mediane as N=count of number and M the actual mediane, when the new number X comes in, you (N*M+X) / (N + 1)
2020-12-16T16:04:52Z amirouche: s/start/store/
2020-12-16T16:05:36Z jcowan: Exact
2020-12-16T16:05:40Z Riastradh: amirouche: That formula gives you mean, not median.
2020-12-16T16:05:58Z amirouche: yes. I forgot how to compute the median
2020-12-16T16:06:21Z jcowan: I think that's a language problem.  Math is not so international as commonly thought
2020-12-16T16:07:03Z jcowan: It is the middle number in a sorted list of them.  However, here there are too many numbers to sort!
2020-12-16T16:07:19Z aeth: (format t "~@R" 42)
2020-12-16T16:07:34Z Riastradh: median of 2n + 1 sorted elements x[0] < x[1] < ... < x[2n-2] < x[2n-1] < x[2n] is x[n]
2020-12-16T16:07:34Z aeth: I suppose all it takes to convert it into Scheme is (format #t "~@R" 42)
2020-12-16T16:07:42Z aeth: (And a Scheme implementation of CL:FORMAT)
2020-12-16T16:07:44Z Riastradh: (or maybe x[n-1]; fenceposter beware)
2020-12-16T16:08:15Z Riastradh: (median of 2n sorted elements is (x[n-1] + x[n])/2, the arithmetic mean of the middle two)
2020-12-16T16:08:53Z jcowan: A binary tree will solve the problem too, but takes even more storage than the array we don't have room for.
2020-12-16T16:09:02Z Riastradh: jcowan: So what's the restriction on input -- other than ignoring fractional cases -- that makes this possible in O(1) space?
2020-12-16T16:09:17Z Riastradh: Small domain?
2020-12-16T16:09:19Z jcowan: That is precisely the question my interviewees almost never ask!
2020-12-16T16:09:30Z Riastradh: ...oops
2020-12-16T16:09:42Z aeth: gwatt: And, actually, CL's FORMAT handles both styles of Roman numerals. (format t "~@R" 4) vs. (format t "~@:R" 4) where the latter does "IIII"
2020-12-16T16:10:27Z jcowan: I use it to make a more general point: in real life you'd want to know the input restrictions before writing the program, but for some reason in interviews people assume the full infinite range of integers, as if computers could deal in them.
2020-12-16T16:10:31Z Riastradh: (even a small domain wouldn't make it actually O(1) space but it would turn into O(log log n) or something instead of O(log n))
2020-12-16T16:10:45Z Riastradh: (or turn it into O(log n) instead of O(n) or whatever)
2020-12-16T16:11:00Z mdhughes: You could just iterate from 1 to MAX-INT, compare input to the format output, and return that result.
2020-12-16T16:11:10Z aeth: jcowan: reminds me of Doom's random number generator
2020-12-16T16:11:21Z jcowan: The next question to ask is "What is the limit on the number of numbers received?"
2020-12-16T16:11:27Z aeth: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator
2020-12-16T16:11:55Z jcowan: I reply 2^63, which kills off any idea of an external sort either
2020-12-16T16:12:44Z aeth: The random numbers of Doom: https://github.com/id-Software/DOOM/blob/77735c3ff0772609e9c8d29e3ce2ab42ff54d20b/linuxdoom-1.10/m_random.c#L31
2020-12-16T16:12:45Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/QDErT9YZHw
2020-12-16T16:12:56Z Riastradh: jcowan: Is this program sequential?
2020-12-16T16:12:57Z jcowan: At which point the problem is restricted enough that a truly O(1) for space solution is possible.
2020-12-16T16:13:02Z jcowan: Riastradh: Yes
2020-12-16T16:13:30Z Riastradh: Then even 2^63 is quite absurd, because even if you could handle one input number per nanosecond (which you can't), that's over 200 years.
2020-12-16T16:13:50Z jcowan: Sure
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2020-12-16T16:14:52Z mdhughes: You can preprocess: Roman only had values up to M, so count all the leading M's, then parse the rest normally.
2020-12-16T16:14:56Z aeth: Riastradh: depends on how many cores you have, right?
2020-12-16T16:15:09Z jcowan: I did say "sequentially"
2020-12-16T16:15:32Z Riastradh: This just came up in a conversation the other day, related to <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/YDVS5Trpr6suig_VCFEOH6SOn8Q/>.
2020-12-16T16:15:35Z jcowan: (Actual interviewees get a lot more feedback from me than this)
2020-12-16T16:15:55Z Riastradh: aeth: Hence `Is this program sequential?', or, more to the point -- do the inputs come in sequentially?
2020-12-16T16:16:44Z aeth: Riastradh: well, perhaps it's faster to immediately send to another thread than to attempt to process it
2020-12-16T16:17:07Z jcowan: Remember the problem conditions: write a procedure that accepts a value and returns the median of all previously accepted values plus the new value.  Such a procedure could spin up a bunch of children, wich is what I mean by "it is sequential".
2020-12-16T16:17:38Z Riastradh: (anyway maybe I should stop torpedoing jcowan's better-than-parse-roman-numerals interview questions)
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2020-12-16T16:18:05Z jcowan: No, no, you have already bubbled up to the top of the hire list even without solving the problem!
2020-12-16T16:18:18Z jcowan: No one has ever asked me about parallelism before.
2020-12-16T16:18:24Z Riastradh: jcowan: but as collateral damage I'm exposing your secrets to a public channel
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2020-12-16T16:19:04Z jcowan: Eh.  While public, the audience both prompt and delayed is vanishingly small compared to the set of wannabe professional programmers.
2020-12-16T16:19:32Z jcowan: Anyway, no one has proposed a method yet.
2020-12-16T16:19:49Z jcowan: ("A method is a device you use twice." --G. Polya)
2020-12-16T16:20:11Z Riastradh: aeth: If the inputs themselves come in multiple parallel channels, sure; but that's why I clarified `do the inputs come in sequentially?', like in that CFRG post (where the lower bound on time for each input is really much higher than a nanosecond).
2020-12-16T16:21:21Z Riastradh: (The scenario there is that you have an oracle which, given a point P on an elliptic curve, computes and returns n*P, where n is a secret you don't know; and the relevant algorithms operate on P, n*P, n^2 * P, n^3 * P, &c.)
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2020-12-16T16:22:18Z aeth: Riastradh: ah
2020-12-16T16:22:27Z jcowan: So given that our numbers are in a small domain (I usually say 0 <= n < 2^31) and the algo has to handle astronomically many of them, what is the best approach
2020-12-16T16:23:03Z aeth: Can the numbers repeat? There are too many lines for me to notice that detail if it has already been said.
2020-12-16T16:34:55Z jcowan: Yes, absolutely
2020-12-16T16:36:04Z mdhughes: If it's just the median, tho, you could use a pigeonhole "sort" to track the numbers seen, then find the middle one of that.
2020-12-16T16:36:13Z taw10: Is it permitted to "rewind" the stream of numbers, or must it be a fully "online" algorithm?
2020-12-16T16:36:23Z jcowan: Fully online
2020-12-16T16:37:18Z jcowan: And yes to mdhughes.  Let me say just a few words:  Nitwit!  Blubber!  Oddment!  Histogram!
2020-12-16T16:37:48Z mdhughes: I am very tired or it would've occurred to me sooner, Mr Wonka.
2020-12-16T16:39:17Z taw10: Make a histogram of the number of times each number has appeared (should fit into memory, 16Gb or so if the full range is seen), then split the density of the histogram into two halves
2020-12-16T16:39:30Z jcowan: (Dumbledore, but I'll take either)
2020-12-16T16:39:50Z jcowan: taw10: Exactly so.
2020-12-16T16:39:52Z mdhughes: Back in the day I annoyed a CS prof by solving some harder problem with a pigeonhole, relying on that I had a 32-bit CPU and a few megs of RAM; his examples were for a 16-bit CPU with 64K.
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2020-12-16T17:01:53Z amirouche: the version with a mean is much easier
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2020-12-16T17:04:36Z Zipheir: The best answer is almost certainly "I need to research the problem".  Only an cowboy assumes they remember the best algorithm off the top of their head in a high-stress moment.
2020-12-16T17:04:53Z Zipheir: Hah, *a* cowboy, even.
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2020-12-16T17:06:41Z Zipheir: (Cowperson, I should say, but that's an ugly word.)
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2020-12-16T17:07:18Z mdhughes: cowpoke
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2020-12-16T17:14:51Z amirouche: cowthem
2020-12-16T17:17:32Z Zipheir: Cowhand.  That's gender-neutral.
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2020-12-16T17:27:52Z jcowan: So is "neatherd", though it would be a bit misleading.
2020-12-16T17:28:16Z jcowan: English has long needed a word for "member of Bos taurus" since "neat" was lost.
2020-12-16T17:32:58Z Zipheir: That would be neat, indeed.
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2020-12-16T17:33:56Z ecraven: hm.. any cognates in other languages for "neat"? I never heard of that, and don't know any in the other germanic languages
2020-12-16T17:37:01Z wasamasa: Du Niete
2020-12-16T17:38:21Z pinoaffe: lol
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2020-12-16T17:39:55Z ecraven: :D
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2020-12-16T17:49:25Z jcowan: Wikt says: Cognate with Dutch noot (“cow, cattle”, in compounds), dialectal German Noß (“livestock”), Alemannic German Nooss (“young sheep or goat”), Swedish nöt (“cattle”), Icelandic naut (“cattle, bull”) and Faroese neyt (“cattle”)
2020-12-16T17:49:54Z jcowan: People who live on islands get their vowels all funny
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2020-12-16T17:50:10Z jcowan: and they preserve archaic sounds like th and w
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2020-12-16T17:50:42Z ecraven: hm.. so it's just me who never heard of that, it seems to have survived ;) thanks!
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2020-12-16T19:29:46Z remby: A decent way to read newline delimited text into a file https://termbin.com/kamp5 I think I'm getting used to recursion as a tool :)
2020-12-16T19:30:36Z amirouche: I do not do that
2020-12-16T19:31:00Z remby: what technique do you use?
2020-12-16T19:31:45Z amirouche: I accumulate in a variable in a tail recursive way, but it requires to reverse the list at the end..
2020-12-16T19:33:55Z amirouche: remby: https://paste.gnome.org/pfjgkzhbh
2020-12-16T19:34:00Z remby: I actually tried the variable at first, but then I wasn't sure how to modifiy the variable, it would work but just be empty
2020-12-16T19:34:28Z amirouche: you pass the variable to the recursive call
2020-12-16T19:34:41Z remby: oooh I see
2020-12-16T19:34:49Z remby: cool :^)
2020-12-16T19:35:42Z Zipheir: remby: Your version will work fine for simple cases.  You can use unfold for something like this to avoid the direct recursion, also.
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2020-12-16T19:37:09Z remby: is that an srfi?
2020-12-16T19:37:16Z Zipheir: SRFI 1.
2020-12-16T19:38:05Z Zipheir: (unfold eof-object? values (lambda (_) (read-line)) (read-line)) is the same thing, although this is such a simple case that it's probably not very interesting.
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2020-12-16T19:39:16Z Zipheir: Once you have a list of lines, grouping them by a delimiter can also be written as an unfold--*and* as a ford.
2020-12-16T19:39:18Z remby: hmm, read-line is in r7rs I think
2020-12-16T19:39:23Z Zipheir: Oops, fold, even.
2020-12-16T19:39:24Z remby: I was going through r6rs
2020-12-16T19:39:37Z Zipheir: Huh, what does R6 call it?
2020-12-16T19:39:44Z remby: get-line iirc
2020-12-16T19:39:57Z Zipheir: Of course :-p
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2020-12-16T19:42:10Z remby: I get fold, but unfold sounds kinda weird.
2020-12-16T19:42:31Z remby: but these functions are really cornerstone aren't they?
2020-12-16T19:42:34Z Zipheir: It's the general pattern of building a list.
2020-12-16T19:42:39Z remby: I will have to study them more
2020-12-16T19:42:50Z remby: I used fold, foldl, foldr from other languages
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2020-12-16T19:44:22Z Zipheir: Most functions which build a list are similar to the form (define (build-it X) (if (STOP? X) '() (cons (F X) (build-it (G X))))).
2020-12-16T19:44:41Z Zipheir: unfold takes the arguments STOP?, F, G, and X and gives you the list.
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2020-12-16T19:49:09Z Zipheir: (vector-unfold and its relatives have a somewhat different form, since those structures aren't inductively defined.)
2020-12-16T19:49:35Z amirouche: fwiw i never use unfold and friends
2020-12-16T19:49:48Z Zipheir: You don't know what you're missing, then. :)
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2020-12-16T19:50:14Z amirouche: and I do not know how unfold works.
2020-12-16T19:50:27Z amirouche: so it is really a clueless habit
2020-12-16T19:50:56Z Zipheir: Once again I'm going to pitch Jeremy Gibbons's "Origami Programming" as a great read. http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/jeremy.gibbons/publications/origami.pdf
2020-12-16T19:52:21Z Zipheir: The cool thing is that every type has a fold and unfold, and both patterns have an enormous number of useful theorems.
2020-12-16T19:52:39Z remby: this looks pretty fun
2020-12-16T19:52:49Z Zipheir: Famously, a compiler is a fold-after-unfold (hylomorphism).
2020-12-16T19:53:27Z remby: btw, which scheme would you choose for making a compiler?
2020-12-16T19:54:01Z remby: native code not required :)
2020-12-16T19:54:20Z Zipheir: If it's for fun, virtually any Scheme would do.
2020-12-16T19:54:28Z Zipheir: I've used CHICKEN in the past.
2020-12-16T19:54:56Z Zipheir: Simple compilers don't need a lot of library support.
2020-12-16T19:55:46Z amirouche: remby: what is the source language and target language ?
2020-12-16T19:55:57Z remby: I noticed guile has a lalr parser and I was quite amazed
2020-12-16T19:56:28Z Zipheir: siraben: Are you calculating AoC solutions this year?
2020-12-16T19:57:04Z remby: amirouche: it would be an interpreted shell like language so C is doing the backend stuff
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2020-12-16T20:00:20Z Zipheir: remby: If you're comfortable with Guile, that'll work perfectly well for starters.
2020-12-16T20:02:31Z remby: ok great
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2020-12-16T20:22:09Z remby: to break out of recursion or a loop will be specific to the scheme right?
2020-12-16T20:22:41Z remby: didn't see anything in r6rs
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2020-12-16T20:24:32Z gwatt: remby: I guess it depends on the mechanism you use to break the loop. I would expect the most usual way is to have a specifc case that halts the recurion. That's normally called the base case.
2020-12-16T20:25:02Z gwatt: A specific *and explicit test condition*
2020-12-16T20:25:07Z remby: right
2020-12-16T20:25:32Z remby: I'm thinking in the case when using for-each and map
2020-12-16T20:25:33Z gwatt: but that will mostly involve simply not recurring
2020-12-16T20:26:19Z manumanumanu: the whole point of those are to go through the whole list, so unless you do it with call/cc it wont' work
2020-12-16T20:26:27Z gwatt: remby: ^^
2020-12-16T20:26:29Z Zipheir: Breaking (i.e. exiting early) can be done with call/cc, and usually is.
2020-12-16T20:27:30Z remby: hmm, I see
2020-12-16T20:28:42Z Zipheir: Breaking from map is not to be done lightly, since map actually has a meaningful value that it computes.
2020-12-16T20:28:53Z Zipheir: for-each is usually just for side-effects.
2020-12-16T20:29:42Z remby: that's true, I meant more wrt to for-each
2020-12-16T20:30:35Z Zipheir: Sure.  (call/cc (lambda (exit) (for-each (lambda (x) (if (p? x) (exit) (foo! x))) my-list))
2020-12-16T20:30:49Z Zipheir: s/$/)/
2020-12-16T20:31:21Z manumanumanu: remby: which scheme? call/cc is quite heavy-handed...
2020-12-16T20:31:22Z remby: so I've now officially done part one in scheme, even though it was a big hack :P https://termbin.com/qhff
2020-12-16T20:31:28Z remby: manumanumanu: guile
2020-12-16T20:31:39Z Zipheir: How is it "heavy-handed"?
2020-12-16T20:31:39Z manumanumanu: remby: then let/ec is your friend
2020-12-16T20:31:56Z remby: I sorta get call/cc but really I don't think I'm close to using it yet
2020-12-16T20:31:58Z manumanumanu: delimited continuations are preferrable if they are available
2020-12-16T20:32:12Z Zipheir: Why?
2020-12-16T20:33:15Z manumanumanu: Because they are delimited. You don't capture the whole continuation, which means you hold on to less memory, they are faster, more easy to reason about and is generally what you want
2020-12-16T20:33:45Z manumanumanu: All call/cc code I have ported to prompts or shift/reset has always run a lot faster and has been easier to reason about
2020-12-16T20:34:40Z manumanumanu: don't trust me, though. Trust Oleg: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html
2020-12-16T20:34:41Z gwatt: Unfortunately they are also not standardised. I think most schemes that provide them have different interfaces.
2020-12-16T20:34:51Z Zipheir: Whether they're faster is implementation-dependent.  It's true, I think, that they are easier to reason about--if you understand shift/reset.
2020-12-16T20:35:33Z Zipheir: But call/cc is standard, plenty fast in most Schemes, and entirely non-confusing when used to wrap a single for-each call.
2020-12-16T20:36:08Z Zipheir: Thanks for the Oleg link. :)
2020-12-16T20:41:33Z manumanumanu: call/cc is borderline unusable for things like coroutine generators, though. The overhead compared to set! based generators is huge. Chez's internal delimited continuations are quite a lot faster than the call/cc that is exposed in chez, and chez probably has the lowest overhead call/cc if we ignore the cheney-on-the-MTA schemes.
2020-12-16T20:41:57Z manumanumanu: but, alas, you need to do ugly things to be able to use them
2020-12-16T20:42:28Z manumanumanu: gwatt: and it saddens me! I don't think it could ever be standardised. it is too big of a change for many schemes.
2020-12-16T20:49:52Z manumanumanu: How long has srfi-64 reference had (test-runner-simple) not conform to the srfi document?
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2020-12-16T23:37:35Z Zipheir: manumanumanu: Excellent paper, thanks.  It makes some strong points again call/cc, I think.
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2020-12-17T00:20:45Z siraben: Zipheir: kinda of, I haven't written down the derivations but I use calculation when optimizing programs
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2020-12-17T01:30:22Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-12-17T01:48:11Z Zipheir: rudybot: A note to follow 'sol'?
2020-12-17T01:48:23Z rudybot: Zipheir: yes, and I don't see what's going to remove the oceans before they are boiled by Sol in a few billion years time.
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2020-12-17T04:01:09Z lockywolf: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyrlk8Xaylp7rQA85egGQe_KzR8Aj6b5s
2020-12-17T04:02:22Z jcowan: I worked out once what "Do, a deer" would look like if if the solfegge had been borrowed *before the English Great Vowel Shift"
2020-12-17T04:02:55Z lockywolf: sorry if it is too obsolete, but the videos for the Scheme Workshop 2020 are finally released.
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2020-12-17T06:24:00Z pinoaffe: manumanumanu: Oleg missed a chance in not naming his paper "call/cc considered harmful" imho
2020-12-17T06:27:05Z Zipheir: No, I'm glad he didn't choose that title.  https://meyerweb.com/eric/comment/chech.html
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2020-12-17T07:02:50Z mdhughes: lambda the ultimate call/cc
2020-12-17T07:06:10Z erkin: Has anyone ported `amb' to delimited continuations yet?
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2020-12-17T09:32:32Z amirouche: at last I received the dead tree book of the new LiSP edition :)
2020-12-17T09:32:36Z amirouche: edition from 2007
2020-12-17T09:33:05Z amirouche: buying was the easy part.
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2020-12-17T12:20:53Z mdhughes: So I've been working on a StringBuffer, since I need that a lot. Get some feedback? https://paste.debian.net/1177253/
2020-12-17T12:23:21Z wasamasa: entry not found
2020-12-17T12:24:00Z mdhughes: Yeah, typod: https://paste.debian.net/1177255/
2020-12-17T12:24:24Z wasamasa: I've once started implementing the emacs buffer API for some very dumb parsing
2020-12-17T12:24:30Z mdhughes: Also I set syntax to scheme, but apparently it's all black.
2020-12-17T12:24:39Z wasamasa: so that may be something to look at for inspiration :P
2020-12-17T12:25:10Z wasamasa: so it's true, the things you said about not adhering to the scheme style guide
2020-12-17T12:25:11Z mdhughes: No, I'm looking at (ugh) Java for inspiration, since the tasks I'm putting this to are very Java-like problems.
2020-12-17T12:25:16Z wasamasa: I see
2020-12-17T12:25:33Z wasamasa: all I've used them for in this scenario was appending lines and joining them
2020-12-17T12:25:49Z amirouche: so you implement faster string procedures using strings ?
2020-12-17T12:26:08Z mdhughes: Yes. Tried vectors and it's marginally slower on Chez, but 100x faster on CHICKEN.
2020-12-17T12:26:45Z mdhughes: It's faster than appending to a string and setting, see the stringbuffer-test.ss for a benchmark.
2020-12-17T12:27:05Z mdhughes: List/reverse/string-append is even a little faster… but you can't edit it.
2020-12-17T12:27:38Z wasamasa: do you need the editing part though?
2020-12-17T12:28:01Z wasamasa: if not, I'd consider porting the picolisp thing for comfortably creating lists
2020-12-17T12:28:08Z wasamasa: or using generators :P
2020-12-17T12:28:22Z mdhughes: Yes. Typically just the last line or so, so I'm not suuuper concerned with O(n) for inserting/deleting at the start.
2020-12-17T12:29:13Z amirouche: that procedure test-StringBuffer is faster than the normal string-append ?
2020-12-17T12:29:50Z wasamasa: (chicken string) has a few of these
2020-12-17T12:31:51Z mdhughes: Yes, by many times, gets really broken when you have (set! s (string-append s foo)) and s is, say, 1GB of text.
2020-12-17T12:33:20Z mdhughes: I did look at rope, which is a balanced tree version, but it can't edit, only append.
2020-12-17T12:34:01Z amirouche: you do not need it to be immutable ?
2020-12-17T12:34:14Z amirouche: I mean you just need it to be fast ?
2020-12-17T12:34:33Z mdhughes: The opposite, I need it to be fast to append, and possible to edit.
2020-12-17T12:34:59Z amirouche: hmm ok
2020-12-17T12:35:45Z mdhughes: Pretty much this: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/StringBuffer.html
2020-12-17T12:35:53Z amirouche: Another quick question did you try the scheme textual aka. https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-135/ ?
2020-12-17T12:36:10Z mdhughes: (modern Java wants you to use StringBuilder which is unsynchronized, but I like the old name better)
2020-12-17T12:36:36Z wasamasa: SRFIs don't guarantee high performance, lol
2020-12-17T12:36:50Z wasamasa: they just suggest people to implement an API
2020-12-17T12:36:58Z mdhughes: I don't understand how that's useful? I *do* need mutability.
2020-12-17T12:37:05Z amirouche: ok
2020-12-17T12:37:34Z amirouche: I will look further later today :)
2020-12-17T12:37:53Z mdhughes: And texts still can't be appended to.
2020-12-17T12:39:14Z mdhughes: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-118/srfi-118.html would be most of what I need, but it only exists in Kawa.
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2020-12-17T12:55:00Z wasamasa: time to start porting
2020-12-17T12:55:13Z wasamasa: IIUC, smalltalk-style becomes exists in CHICKEN
2020-12-17T13:00:02Z wasamasa: https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Module%20(chicken%20memory%20representation)#object-become
2020-12-17T13:02:00Z wasamasa: yeah, it seems to be that
2020-12-17T13:04:02Z wasamasa: not exactly cheap though as it forces a GC
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2020-12-17T13:12:28Z erkin: object-become! is an amazing name for it.
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2020-12-17T13:13:00Z erkin waves a magic wand
2020-12-17T13:13:03Z erkin: Object, become!
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2020-12-17T13:24:15Z amirouche: :)
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2020-12-17T14:17:58Z ManDay: I dare to say that if you need this kind of magic for your program to work, you may seriously want to reconsider your program's design
2020-12-17T14:18:20Z wasamasa: there are applications for it
2020-12-17T14:18:29Z wasamasa: nobody bats an eye at people using pointers in C
2020-12-17T14:19:03Z wasamasa: what's happening here is that you change all pointers towards a certain object to point to another one
2020-12-17T14:19:52Z ManDay: To me this kind of stuff just feels wrong. Sure, it can be done. But Lisp isn't C and this stuff just goes too far in my opinion.
2020-12-17T14:20:09Z ManDay: But I guess... Once you go unpure, there is no going back
2020-12-17T14:20:18Z wasamasa: sure, if ignoring low-level details makes you feel better
2020-12-17T14:20:30Z ManDay: it does.
2020-12-17T14:20:53Z wasamasa: these pointers are all over the place in a lisp
2020-12-17T14:21:01Z wasamasa: sometimes their semantics become apparent
2020-12-17T14:21:57Z wasamasa: if you were to have something like a smalltalk object table in lisp (like an alist holding all the objects you care about), you could do the same thing
2020-12-17T14:22:34Z wasamasa: would be a matter of mapping over it, performing identity checks and using a set-car! operation on the questionable parts
2020-12-17T14:23:32Z wasamasa: in fact, certain garbage collection strategies do exactly that
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2020-12-17T14:25:06Z ManDay: maybe I too will find use for that at one point. but I think if I reach that point I will decide that I'll change over to C. but then again, it might be my lack of understanding of the non-pure part of scheme that deters me from touching this stuff
2020-12-17T14:25:20Z wasamasa: yes, it's an understanding thing
2020-12-17T14:25:52Z wasamasa: I find it useful to explain it in lower-level terms rather than describing it in flowery terms like the scheme standard does
2020-12-17T14:41:47Z mdhughes: It's logically the same as having a box/1-vector/mutable pair pointing at the object, and you change the content. But nobody has to dereference anything.
2020-12-17T14:46:21Z amirouche: +1 ManDay and mdhughes
2020-12-17T14:51:35Z amirouche: mdhughes: I read more carefully stringbuffer, and I have nothing to add :)
2020-12-17T14:51:58Z mdhughes: amirouche: Thanks!
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2020-12-17T15:36:19Z mdhughes: I did find a minor optimization, using fx for all operations gets me a very tiny bit closer to test-list-reverse-append's result.
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2020-12-17T16:24:43Z jcowan: mdhughes: Texts don't need to be appended *to*, because appending two texts is fast on average.  The same for mutability: you can use textual-replace to effectively alter one character (or any number of them) while sharing the rest.
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2020-12-17T16:50:08Z mdhughes: So it looks like 135 only works in Larceny? I wasn't able to get Chez to read it.
2020-12-17T16:50:20Z mdhughes: Exception: invalid context for definition (define (%text-split-into-characters …
2020-12-17T16:50:22Z mdhughes: And a bunch more.
2020-12-17T16:51:07Z mdhughes: It is not in https://github.com/arcfide/chez-srfi
2020-12-17T16:52:09Z mdhughes: That said, I'd have to benchmark it but editing trees is not usually faster than editing an array!
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2020-12-17T19:48:56Z gagbo1: Hello, I'm toying with the idea of writing a scheme implementation. Do you know if there's a source of valid scheme files that would test my parser's compliance with r7rs ? Or should I just try to find files in the wild ?
2020-12-17T19:49:44Z gwatt: gagbo1: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r7rs-tests.scm
2020-12-17T19:49:55Z amirouche: as far as I know there is not an official test suite except ^
2020-12-17T19:50:47Z jcowan: There is nothing official about it, but this official of Scheme Central can definitely recommend it.
2020-12-17T19:51:16Z gwatt: gagbo1: I think chibi is the closest thing to a reference implementation of r7rs
2020-12-17T19:51:16Z jcowan: There are R6RS tests too if you want to implement that.
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2020-12-17T20:01:43Z gagbo1: For the time being I'll try to implement what r7rs.pdf talks about, and then I'll see where I go. This is a first for me, so pretty sure it's going to take a really long time
2020-12-17T20:01:51Z gagbo1: gwatt: thanks :)
2020-12-17T20:02:25Z amirouche: gagbo1: interpreter or compiler ?
2020-12-17T20:02:51Z gagbo1: I'm not sure I see the difference, but I'm also quite sure I'm going for an interpreter
2020-12-17T20:03:07Z gagbo1: i.e. having a repl and a binary that can read .scm files
2020-12-17T20:03:31Z amirouche: I was just curious.
2020-12-17T20:04:53Z amirouche: gagbo1: fwiw, here is the approach i have taken: https://github.com/amirouche/ruse/tree/master/tests
2020-12-17T20:05:27Z amirouche: it a series of programs executed in an precise order, with the value returned by the last expression
2020-12-17T20:05:32Z amirouche: feedback welcome.
2020-12-17T20:05:55Z amirouche: in the latest version of that work, it is a little bit more elaborate, but that is the same idea.
2020-12-17T20:10:39Z gwatt: gagbo1: compilers turn source code into another representation. That could be C, assembly, javascript, whatever. Interpreters just execute the source without doing that translation.
2020-12-17T20:11:19Z gagbo1: I don't know a lot about scheme, but I know that elisp mostly has only 1 represention of data that can be printed and read. So should I go this route I think I'd try to use the "read representation" of the result instead of having a json.
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2020-12-17T20:12:33Z amirouche: what is the host language ?
2020-12-17T20:13:07Z gagbo1: 0021-symbol.scm.out.js.txt would just be "'hello-world" as well, since symbol are self-evaluating, and your test would just check `read out.js.txt` against the last statement of `scm`
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2020-12-17T20:14:15Z gagbo1: amirouche: rust, it's pretty fun. (I actually thought that your ruse was ruse-lang/ruse being forked, but it's not :) )
2020-12-17T20:15:10Z amirouche: gagbo1: the target in _my_ ruse is javascript, so I output whta I expect in javascript land.
2020-12-17T20:15:31Z gagbo1: fair enough
2020-12-17T20:15:36Z amirouche: gagbo1: ruse is an awesome name for a scheme :)
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2020-12-17T20:16:34Z amirouche: also symbols are a little bit an exception, since they do not have a representation in JavaScript that can be read.
2020-12-17T20:16:51Z amirouche: unlike list, JSObject, numbers, Boolean objects.
2020-12-17T20:17:05Z amirouche: I mean, symbols are not valid JSON.
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2020-12-17T20:18:45Z gwatt: amirouche: they're not even stable in normal javascript
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2020-12-17T20:19:23Z gwatt: maybe stable is the wrong word. They don't have a printable representation that can be read as valid javascript
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2020-12-17T20:21:24Z amirouche: speaking of JS and JSON, the person behind small-tech.org created a database that generates not data, but code. So when you load the database file, it executes some code... That just me repeating what they said on the fediverse, that seems to me very dangerous...
2020-12-17T20:21:27Z amirouche shrugs
2020-12-17T20:22:16Z amirouche: the db does not generate say JSON lines, but javascript with functions...
2020-12-17T20:22:42Z amirouche: outside of that, small-tech.org is a great idea.
2020-12-17T20:22:53Z amirouche: except the JS bits.
2020-12-17T20:23:43Z amirouche: IMO JS and browsers are not something that qualify as "small"
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2020-12-17T20:28:06Z amirouche: here is some doc about it: https://github.com/small-tech/jsdb/blob/master/README.md#usage
2020-12-17T20:28:13Z Zipheir: I'd expect the Knights of the Lambda Calculus to be familiar with the notion of algorithmic data representation.
2020-12-17T20:28:51Z gagbo1: The way you describe that it actually looks like a joke. "Small tech that needs js, your browser, and a database that loads executable code"
2020-12-17T20:29:47Z gagbo1: Oh I misread, it doesn't work in a browser, just js, fair enough
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2020-12-17T20:58:15Z amirouche: gagbo1: you did not completly misread it, because it still requires a browser to see the content.
2020-12-17T21:00:25Z amirouche: I went through the website for the first time, and at least they do a job at explaining some significant concepts that can help downstream projects.
2020-12-17T21:01:33Z amirouche: Also whatever I say will not change the fact that the web stack is the most open multiplatform stack (maybe qt can be as good but not better)
2020-12-17T21:03:24Z Zipheir: Open, but incomprehensible, and served by approximately 3 implementations.
2020-12-17T21:04:18Z Zipheir: (Just kidding.  There's only Chromium.)
2020-12-17T21:04:24Z amirouche: if you add the requirements for multiple implementation, not even qt qualify.
2020-12-17T21:05:24Z amirouche: I always wonder when conversation comes to this about how global permanent peace would look like?
2020-12-17T21:06:02Z amirouche: even if it *somehow* all the people make peace, there will be people trying to disturb it.
2020-12-17T21:06:18Z Zipheir: They just need a CLI interface.  That's extremely portable.
2020-12-17T21:07:20Z amirouche: (NB: I am not high)
2020-12-17T21:07:44Z amirouche: Maybe a cli is all we need.
2020-12-17T21:07:53Z Zipheir: "Global permanent peace" is a very absolute idea which probably could never conform to a constantly-changing reality.
2020-12-17T21:08:46Z amirouche: I always compare "global permanent peeace" as somekind of 1984
2020-12-17T21:09:16Z amirouche: because I can not be everywhere, I necessarly need to *trust*
2020-12-17T21:09:17Z gwatt: But in 1984 they had always been at war
2020-12-17T21:09:43Z amirouche: yeah, in 1984 they trust the system that what they say is the good thing.
2020-12-17T21:11:16Z amirouche: they try to escape that reality and disturb the "1984 way of permanent peace" but the system is stronger hence the permanent peace
2020-12-17T21:11:29Z Zipheir: Even deeper, the idea is that the Newspeak language shouldn't allow you to even conceive of questioning the system.
2020-12-17T21:11:48Z amirouche: yes.
2020-12-17T21:11:56Z Zipheir: Which is going all-in on Sapir-Whorf!
2020-12-17T21:12:17Z amirouche: My physic teacher told me the story of "what if we lived in 2d world, could we imagine what 3d is?"
2020-12-17T21:13:03Z amirouche: global permanent peace is 3d, current world is 2d
2020-12-17T21:14:10Z Zipheir: Again, the problem is absolutes like "world peace", which are big, vague, unobtainable-by-definition things.
2020-12-17T21:15:07Z Zipheir: It's not some fundamentally different world-state.  It just requires more "better" behavior in a million little cases.
2020-12-17T21:15:22Z amirouche: agreed
2020-12-17T21:17:09Z amirouche: btw the 2d vs 3d world is explained in that video by Carl Sagan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM
2020-12-17T21:18:05Z Zipheir: Oh, cool.
2020-12-17T21:18:07Z amirouche: Sapir Whorf hypothesis is not wrong in every ways. IME words factor some understanding
2020-12-17T21:18:32Z amirouche: simply said "having one word to explain a whole book is very handy".
2020-12-17T21:20:20Z pinoaffe: on the topic of dimensionality: have y'all read "flatland"?
2020-12-17T21:22:48Z Zipheir: Really good book, as I recall.  (It's been a while.)
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2020-12-17T23:08:51Z jcowan: In fact we are in a state of world peace today.
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2020-12-17T23:13:30Z jcowan: Number of times nuclear weapons have been used in combat since 1945: zero. Number of times the great powers have fought each other since 1945: zero.  Number of times that soldiers of the two Cold War superpowers fought each other on the battlefield: zero.  Number of interstate wars fought in Europe since 1945: one (in the period 1400-1945, there were on average two such wars per year).  Number of interstate wars fought
2020-12-17T23:13:30Z jcowan: between the top 45 developed countries since 1945: one.  Number of developed countries that have conquered another country, wiping it off the political map, since 1948: zero.  Number of developed countries that have expanded their borders by conquest: one.  Number of internationally recognized states that have gone out of existence since 1945 as a result of force: zero or one, depending on whether you think the (long)
2020-12-17T23:13:30Z jcowan: Vietnam War ended in a conquest or the winding-up of an internationalized civil war.
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2020-12-18T00:15:24Z gagbo1: I think there has been more conflicts than that
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2020-12-18T00:16:53Z gagbo1: got Ukraine/Russia in Crimea and Azerbaidjan(sorry for spelling)/Armenia in High Karabakh quite recently off the top of my head
2020-12-18T00:17:09Z gagbo1: but yeah I guess conflicts is not as global as 45
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2020-12-18T02:59:18Z jcowan: Ukraine/Russia is the "one" in a couple of those
2020-12-18T03:03:12Z jcowan: I never realized that the name "Nagorno-Karabakh" was half Russian!
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2020-12-18T03:06:19Z jcowan: It's haut-Karabakh in French, but I didn't know that either
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2020-12-18T03:23:35Z amirouche: jcowan: how did you come up with 45?
2020-12-18T03:23:52Z jcowan: The end of World War II.
2020-12-18T03:23:54Z amirouche: as in "top 45 developed countries
2020-12-18T03:25:02Z jcowan: Oh.  I don't know, actually; the numbers are from Stephen Pinker's _Better Angels Of Our Nature_ (2007) with some updates from me.
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2020-12-18T03:25:26Z jcowan: (If it sounds cherry-picked, it probably is.)
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2020-12-18T04:21:04Z aeth: 2007. Back when everyone was still optimistic. :-)
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2020-12-18T04:32:35Z aeth: And then MIT abandoned SICP...
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2020-12-18T04:42:49Z jcowan: No, there were GOBS of pessimism in 2007, with just as many butterslide theorists as today ("First all was Paradise, and then X happened, and since then everything has slid down to Hell").  But over the last 500 years there has been (per capita) a fall-off in all kinds of Bad Things, which is what the book is about.
2020-12-18T04:43:28Z jcowan: And any road, a language that has to force people to learn it (by means of an intro class) isn't so much of a language.
2020-12-18T04:51:55Z Zipheir: I suspect it was the overall density and difficulty of SICP that factored into MIT's switch to other textbooks, and not its use of Scheme, specifically.  Using it in an intro class is a bit like using GEB to teach an intro to philosophy.
2020-12-18T04:52:28Z Zipheir: (A very good idea for a class, but pretty tough for a lot of today's undergraduates.)
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2020-12-18T05:37:56Z ZombieChicken: GEB?
2020-12-18T05:38:02Z jcowan: It was also a reflection of the fact that most programmers nowadays write glue, not from-scratch programs.  A friend of mine described TinyScheme as "building a ship out of tongue depressors."
2020-12-18T05:38:25Z jcowan: As things stand, Python is much better glue.
2020-12-18T05:41:14Z jcowan: ZombieChicken: _Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid_ by Douglas R. Hofstadter.  Not to bve confused with _Giraffes, Elephants, Baboons: An Equatorial Grasslands Bestiary_ by Egbert B. Gebstadter, also published as "Copper, Silver, Gold: an Indestructible Metallic Alloy".
2020-12-18T05:41:54Z ZombieChicken: okay, ty
2020-12-18T05:44:29Z jcowan: s/TinyScheme/writing TinyScheme for the GIMP/
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2020-12-18T06:49:15Z erkin: I wonder why they didn't switch to Guile when they were migrating away from SIOD.
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2020-12-18T07:54:00Z mdhughes: SICP is a fairly hard intro to CS textbook. Scheme is not that hard, you could just as easily teach it to a child as LOGO.
2020-12-18T07:54:32Z mdhughes: Teaching Scheme to C programmers is much harder, of course.
2020-12-18T08:01:05Z amirouche: we need a new SICP
2020-12-18T08:01:31Z amirouche: one that explains both from scratch dev and glue dev
2020-12-18T08:01:56Z amirouche: and the target audiance could be growth hackers ;)
2020-12-18T08:04:18Z mdhughes: Like this: https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FEpc18qcU0AAtOXO.jpg%3Fname%3Dorig
2020-12-18T08:04:27Z mdhughes: (just a weird synchronicity)
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2020-12-18T08:11:37Z wasamasa: glue dev with scheme?
2020-12-18T08:11:40Z wasamasa: good luck with that
2020-12-18T08:13:10Z mdhughes: Why? Many of them have good C FFI, easier than Python's.
2020-12-18T08:14:52Z mdhughes: I'd put CHICKEN up against Python for doing quick control of any existing library.
2020-12-18T08:15:44Z wasamasa: the thing is that python gives you whatever library you want and you can immediately use it after writing some glue code
2020-12-18T08:15:56Z wasamasa: whereas with scheme you spend some days writing a binding doing what you need
2020-12-18T08:16:05Z wasamasa: and that part is highly different depending on the scheme
2020-12-18T08:17:45Z mdhughes: But to get those libraries into Python takes a lot more effort. I've done it in both!
2020-12-18T08:18:26Z mdhughes: And largely with CHICKEN you can import some egg that'll do it. It's <50% of the Python library, but it's not nothin'.
2020-12-18T08:20:59Z mdhughes: Things like TinyScheme are interesting because their FFI process is even easier, the glue code is just unwrapping/rewrapping Scheme objects from your C code.
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2020-12-18T09:24:23Z edgar-rft: When doctors say SICP they mean you are a Scary Insanely Crazy Person.
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2020-12-18T09:41:19Z pinoaffe: mdhughes: but python has a load of bindings already available, so you'd often not need to do any binding-related work
2020-12-18T09:43:16Z wasamasa: yeah, that is the thing
2020-12-18T09:43:27Z wasamasa: you don't get to be glue language without tons of existing work
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2020-12-18T09:48:58Z erkin: Racket is the closest bet.
2020-12-18T09:52:38Z erkin: Maybe CHICKEN and Guile.
2020-12-18T09:54:57Z wasamasa: I got pretty far with CHICKEN, but after some years I ended up contributing more eggs
2020-12-18T09:55:14Z erkin: https://i.redd.it/kb7k1d3i4t561.jpg
2020-12-18T09:55:18Z erkin: wait
2020-12-18T09:55:20Z erkin: Sorry, wrong channel.
2020-12-18T09:57:07Z wasamasa: cat content is never offtopic
2020-12-18T09:57:16Z erkin: haha :-)
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2020-12-18T10:25:25Z edgar-rft: hmm, what was first, chicken or curry?
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2020-12-18T14:02:12Z mdhughes: https://racket-stories.com
2020-12-18T14:02:21Z mdhughes: (saw it in my site referers)
2020-12-18T14:03:32Z mdhughes: And https://racket-stories.com/about
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2020-12-18T14:49:16Z erkin: Better than the original reddit. ;-P
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2020-12-18T19:02:21Z mdhughes: HN could move to that, and skip the middleman of a broken LISP-like on Racket on Chez.
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2020-12-18T19:27:56Z aeth: sunk cost fallacy
2020-12-18T19:28:30Z aeth: and that other, related rule... every year HN is on Arc will increase the expected lifespan of HN-on-Arc by a year
2020-12-18T19:29:37Z aeth: It remains literally the only thing written in Arc other than Arc implementations, though. And is itself part of the implementation of an Arc
2020-12-18T19:33:58Z Zipheir: Someone implemented HN on Arc?
2020-12-18T19:36:04Z gwatt: someone being PG no doubt
2020-12-18T19:44:13Z Zipheir: I guess he'll have to port it to Bel, now.
2020-12-18T20:05:25Z aeth: I can't wait until whatever C** is going to be
2020-12-18T20:05:31Z aeth: My guess is either Car or Cdr
2020-12-18T20:05:45Z aeth: I bet pg is going to work through the alphabet if he lives long enough
2020-12-18T20:06:35Z aeth: His magnum opus is going to be Zoo
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2020-12-18T20:37:26Z Zipheir: It's not clear to me what the purpose of inventing lots of three-name minor Lisp variations is.
2020-12-18T20:37:43Z Zipheir: Oops, "three-letter".
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2020-12-18T20:38:25Z Zipheir: The nine billion names of Lisp?
2020-12-18T20:40:28Z mdhughes: We only have two clues so far. Once he does another one or two, we can see if there's a bigger pattern.
2020-12-18T20:46:22Z mdhughes: I'm hoping it's Can and Del, so we can throw out the outlier Arc and it's ASCII control codes.
2020-12-18T20:47:59Z aeth: makes sense for a language that only supports ASCII and not Unicode...
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2020-12-18T21:33:03Z Zipheir: Especially since PG's ideas of language design don't seem to have grown in the slightest in the past decades.  He doesn't seem to be interested in learning anything about programming languages beyond what he already knows.
2020-12-18T21:38:34Z gwatt: i think the technical term is "smug lisp weeny"
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2020-12-18T22:27:24Z aeth: Zipheir: he doesn't even want to learn CL :-p
2020-12-18T22:28:52Z aeth: (yes, yes, he wrote a book on some advanced CL macro stuff, but he doesn't really care about idiomatic CL afaik)
2020-12-18T22:30:29Z aeth: Zipheir: it's a bit sad because he was a really good writer on Lisp issues a long time ago, but ever since Y Combinator took off, it's clear that every essay is going to end with "here's how you successfully apply to Y Combinator"
2020-12-18T22:30:46Z aeth: Wealth inequality? Here's how you successfully apply to Y Combinator...
2020-12-18T22:31:03Z aeth: Complete night-and-day contrast to when his blog was focused on Lisp stuff.
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2020-12-18T22:35:06Z wasamasa: it always baffled me people recommend his lisp macros book
2020-12-18T22:35:07Z aeth: I predict that in his next Lisp, the apply procedure's going to do something very different than what apply in Scheme does.
2020-12-18T22:35:27Z wasamasa: I've only read the essays and yeah nope
2020-12-18T22:35:51Z aeth: the further back you go, the better the essays get, but they always had the problematic effect of overselling what Lisps can do
2020-12-18T22:37:25Z aeth: You generally want to underpromise and overdeliver. It manages expectations better.
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2020-12-18T22:44:16Z aeth: That reminds me that I need to add "When shouldn't I use foo?" sections to all of my documentation. SQLite does and it's refreshingly honest. https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html
2020-12-18T22:46:21Z wasamasa: I kind of try to do that with my emacs packages with a section comparing it to alternatives at the time of writing
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2020-12-19T06:24:37Z erkin: Is there a portable way to get the current Unix time?
2020-12-19T06:24:55Z erkin: SRFI-19 doesn't expose it.
2020-12-19T06:32:14Z mdhughes: (current-time) and then get duration since 1970
2020-12-19T06:33:58Z erkin: `current-time' isn't portable though.
2020-12-19T06:34:19Z mdhughes: It's in SRFI-19.
2020-12-19T06:34:33Z mdhughes: In Chez it's already the Unix epoch, but I wouldn't rely on that.
2020-12-19T06:34:43Z erkin: Ohh
2020-12-19T06:34:51Z erkin: Excellent, thank you.
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2020-12-19T12:20:34Z mdhughes: I got curious if they were actually the same, or TAI, or what: https://paste.debian.net/1177583/
2020-12-19T12:22:58Z mdhughes: Result is epoch on Mac & FreeBSD. Others, who knows.
2020-12-19T12:28:42Z mdhughes: And I'd like to complain to whoever 20 years ago thought (make-time 'time-duration 0 1) was a reasonable way to make a duration.
2020-12-19T12:29:26Z mdhughes: A) specifying the type as a mistypeable symbol instead of a function. B) nanos before seconds.
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2020-12-19T12:30:56Z mdhughes: Same complaint for make-date, major element should be before minor, the entire arg list is backwards.
2020-12-19T12:31:28Z mdhughes: But minor applause for making the month January be 1 instead of 0 as it is in C/Java/JavaScript.
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2020-12-19T13:00:46Z wasamasa: doesn't java do that thing where month is 1-based and day/year aren't
2020-12-19T13:17:16Z mdhughes: Other way around.
2020-12-19T13:17:33Z mdhughes: Because month is looked up in an array, and you sure wouldn't want to waste an array element!
2020-12-19T13:18:32Z wasamasa: ah
2020-12-19T13:41:36Z erkin: Is `cond-expand' top-level only?
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2020-12-19T16:32:13Z jcowan: It's a carryover from the earliest age of the C library, in which wasting a word was indeed a crime.
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2020-12-19T16:56:04Z mdhughes: I was tempted to look up Multics and see if they'd done the same stupid shit, but ICBA.
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2020-12-19T18:25:10Z jcowan: Honeywell machines had a lot more memory than PDP-11s
2020-12-19T18:28:34Z aeth: I couldn't find a good article on RAM quantities over time when I searched a while back. The best I could find was this reddit post from 2016... https://old.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/5cr2j2/how_much_ram_did_computers_have_over_time_timeline/d9ynds0/
2020-12-19T18:28:49Z aeth: Of course, high end servers/workstations are probably well ahead of what's normal
2020-12-19T18:30:29Z aeth: But based on that, you'd have to worry about wasting memory all the way through the year 2000.
2020-12-19T18:33:17Z aeth: And, of course, phones always seem to be least a decade behind in RAM quantity...
2020-12-19T18:34:25Z jcowan: Well, we've had two big bottlenecks in machine capacity: one in going from mainframes to minicomputers, and the other in going from minicomputers to microcomputers, where we are now.  Each new machine type eventually grows to the point where it has the same capacity as the older machine types.
2020-12-19T18:34:44Z aeth: yeah
2020-12-19T18:35:16Z aeth: A proper chart would probably have to have mainframes, minicomputers, microcomputers, and smartphones all as separate trend lines. It would also require defining the start of the 'smartphone', which is tricky.
2020-12-19T18:35:25Z jcowan: The Multics (also Dartmouth Time Sharing System) hardware, the GE-645, allowed 2^18 segments of up to 2^18 words each, but I don't know what the physical memory limit was.
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2020-12-19T18:35:41Z aeth: I suspect that the transition in form factor is what makes all of the historical RAM trend lines so noisy
2020-12-19T18:35:49Z jcowan: I would say a smartphone is one that can download third-party software.
2020-12-19T18:37:02Z jcowan: And of course the performance trend has a constantly rising baseline on which the cycles are superimposed.  We have come a long way since mercury delay lines and vacuum tubes.
2020-12-19T18:37:26Z aeth: Third party apps is probably sooner than you think because of Java, but this doesn't just include smartphones. When smartphones were becoming mainstream, there were very limited "feature phones" that also had (very limited) apps, as well as flip phones, etc.
2020-12-19T18:39:54Z aeth: I think it's more of a form factor thing, where smartphones typically have a screen with a full keyboard, or a rectangular touch screen. But then you'd still have to distinguish them from feature phones, which were heavily restricted.
2020-12-19T18:39:57Z jcowan: I've got a flip phone, military grade.  I can throw it down on a concrete floor and nothing happens.  It will tell me the time and handle calls and texts, and that is 100% all I need.
2020-12-19T18:41:46Z aeth: I use my phone for Firefox, not phone calls.
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2020-12-19T18:43:24Z jcowan: If someone in the family needs to reach me when I'm not home, a phone call is the most effective.  One of the things that annoys me most about the (kaff kaff) modern world is that there is increasingly no way to reach anyone in an emergency except 911/999.
2020-12-19T18:44:33Z aeth: The problem is that for a decade or so, the phone companies and legislators have done absolutely nothing to handle people from random overseas phone numbers constantly calling your number pretending to be some local number.
2020-12-19T18:44:42Z aeth: So everyone has been trained to not answer the phone now.
2020-12-19T18:46:23Z jcowan: They still can't pretend to be the specific numbers that I take calls from.
2020-12-19T18:47:27Z jcowan: Also, I do my damnedest to keep knowledge of that number from anyone except family, though some online services that I need during Covid insist on texting me instead of sending email.
2020-12-19T18:48:10Z jcowan: Pretty much nobody texts me except computers, and I know when to expect those.
2020-12-19T18:51:29Z aeth: some websites want a phone number to prove that you're not a robot now :-/
2020-12-19T18:51:55Z aeth: Can't fully blame them, either. Captchas are at the point where they're easier for robots to solve than for humans.
2020-12-19T18:56:51Z Zipheir: I believe there was an actual licensed lawyer working for a certain president who recently claimed that a collection of anonymous Web reports of "voter fraud" had to be legit, "because we use a captcha!".
2020-12-19T18:59:16Z Zipheir: The older obfuscated-text captchas are often almost impossible for humans.  There was a time (ca. 2013?) when logging into a Recaptcha-using site could take dozens of tries.
2020-12-19T19:01:33Z aeth: Iirc, there's a new captcha service where you have to solve a maze or something in a few seconds. Multiple times. It's like they designed a captcha specifically to exclude humans.
2020-12-19T19:01:45Z amirouche: hello here
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2020-12-19T19:02:34Z amirouche: you can proceed, I have nothing to say ;)
2020-12-19T19:03:40Z amirouche: I use texting a lot
2020-12-19T19:04:15Z amirouche: And I do not answer the phone :D
2020-12-19T19:04:35Z amirouche: Too bad manday is not here
2020-12-19T19:04:47Z amirouche: ...
2020-12-19T19:05:00Z amirouche: spoiler: I have a brillant idea :D
2020-12-19T19:05:02Z amirouche: again
2020-12-19T19:05:27Z aeth: amirouche: yes, but to approach the original topic, do you use a lot of RAM?
2020-12-19T19:06:18Z amirouche: aeth: on my laptop?
2020-12-19T19:06:48Z amirouche: 9Gb out of 16Gb with cache it is almost full
2020-12-19T19:07:18Z amirouche: there 450MiB that are free according to free command
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2020-12-19T19:08:06Z aeth: that's high
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2020-12-19T19:10:12Z aeth: I'm personally using 1.4 GB, with 27 GB free and 29 GB available.
2020-12-19T19:10:37Z aeth: 32 GB puts me in an odd situation where usually I'm using almost all of it or almost none of it. :-)
2020-12-19T19:11:36Z amirouche: aeth: OS?
2020-12-19T19:11:51Z aeth: I suppose my 12 core CPU is in a similar situation. Even a reasonably heavy load is a 2% average load on htop...
2020-12-19T19:12:00Z aeth: amirouche: Linux, but more importantly, stumpwm
2020-12-19T19:12:18Z aeth: Another WM might add 1 GB of essentially bloat.
2020-12-19T19:13:30Z Zipheir: Most kernels will allocate huge amounts of RAM for buffers and cache, and Web browsers will happily use more virtual memory than the system has.  So RAM benchmarks don't mean too much out of context.
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2020-12-19T19:14:10Z aeth: Steam does this
2020-12-19T19:14:22Z aeth: If there's a large (10s of GB or more) download, it'll use up all of my RAM, but not really.
2020-12-19T19:15:16Z aeth: it's very noticable when almost all of your memory bar is yellow in htop...
2020-12-19T19:15:56Z aeth: And, I mean, this is already happening. I haven't really done anything yet today (it's Saturday) and I already have more buff/cache in free -h (2.8 GB) than used (1.4 GB)
2020-12-19T19:16:04Z aeth: So, yeah, just massive cache.
2020-12-19T19:16:40Z aeth: Zipheir: Oh, and htop says that Firefox requested 32.7 GB virt... (it's colored red because it's too much?) so it intentionally requested a bit more than I actually have.
2020-12-19T19:16:49Z amirouche: aeth: I already asked previously but what distro ?
2020-12-19T19:16:59Z aeth: amirouche: Fedora.
2020-12-19T19:17:10Z amirouche: oh neat. so that stumpwm that saves so mcuh
2020-12-19T19:17:27Z amirouche: fedora does not come with lots of preinstalled services ? or did you make a server fine tune install ?
2020-12-19T19:17:32Z aeth: Fedora tends to be a reasonable middle ground between recent (e.g. Arch) and easy (e.g. Ubuntu) and stable (e.g. Debian), at least ime.
2020-12-19T19:18:13Z aeth: It comes with a lot of stuff in quantity (e.g. I have 78 "tasks" right now in htop), but not in RAM usage.
2020-12-19T19:18:26Z aeth: A full DE would probably triple that, though
2020-12-19T19:19:25Z mdhughes: As I have previously noted: https://appdot.net/@mdhughes/104780160967097697
2020-12-19T19:19:59Z aeth: mdhughes: I mean, even just programming I'm used to kilobytes as "a huge amount"
2020-12-19T19:20:24Z aeth: There seems to be two kinds of programmers. Those who mostly deal with kilobytes and those who fill your system with gigabytes. :-p
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2020-12-19T19:21:08Z mdhughes: Kilobytes are luxury! We used'ta toggle front switches to load our programs, and I tell you 256 bytes is about my limit.
2020-12-19T19:21:23Z Zipheir: It's not a joke: https://xkcd.com/2021/
2020-12-19T19:21:32Z mdhughes: (I only played with a front-toggle system years after their time. I was a TRS-80 and then Atari 800 kid.)
2020-12-19T19:23:03Z mdhughes: And then currently I'm holding off on a new M1 Mac because I want more than 16GB of RAM. Which is mostly wasted on Safari tabs.
2020-12-19T19:24:45Z aeth: The largest things I ever work with are probably textures for graphics stuff, and they're still usually just something like 1024*1024*4 bytes at most. Maybe 4096*4096*4 bytes. So 100 MB to me is "absolutely massive".
2020-12-19T19:25:22Z Zipheir: In a day when clock apps are running on full Web-rendering stacks, we can certainly afford to emphasize correctness over speed in software.
2020-12-19T19:25:55Z Zipheir: When it has to be rendered in under 10 ms, it's quite massive.
2020-12-19T19:26:01Z aeth: well, no
2020-12-19T19:26:19Z mdhughes: The more I move to retrocomputing, the less textures I need. I draw 8x8x256 bitmap fonts and some little sprites.
2020-12-19T19:26:31Z aeth: Zipheir: You don't need the textures at run time unless you're editing them live. You just ship them to the GPU at the start and the GPU deals with them.
2020-12-19T19:27:10Z aeth: Now, if the program is editing images and videos or something... I can understand that that will take a lot of RAM.
2020-12-19T19:27:17Z mdhughes: Sound's a bloat problem. I can't write synthesizer music, so I'm stuck playing megabytes of mp3s.
2020-12-19T19:27:35Z aeth: mdhughes: right, the issue is really display sizes.
2020-12-19T19:28:11Z aeth: Unless you're using some kind of vector format (which is probably why icons via fonts is a thing now), you're just going to keep making things get worse as resolutions go up.
2020-12-19T19:28:22Z mdhughes: Yeah, I like discrete GPUs with their own RAM so I can just write enough drawing code to push the texture in, let it eat memory.
2020-12-19T19:28:52Z aeth: Fortunately, 4k seems to be a fairly stable limit right now. 2.5k (1440p) is a thing in some cases, as is 5k... A few people have 8k...
2020-12-19T19:29:10Z aeth: I don't really see anyone having a need for 16k displays outside of VR, where the headset is in your face so any flaws are more obvious.
2020-12-19T19:29:15Z mdhughes: Another reason to dislike the first M1 Macs, they have integrated GPU and shared RAM, ick.
2020-12-19T19:29:24Z mdhughes: Well, I have a 5K monitor.
2020-12-19T19:29:52Z aeth: Yes, there are some, particularly by Apple.
2020-12-19T19:31:33Z aeth: But we will reach the limit of display resolutions sometime in the 2020s (even if it'll take another 20 years for everyone to get there) and then there won't be many remaining excuses for increasing RAM usage like that.
2020-12-19T19:32:17Z mdhughes: Well, it needs to be 4Kx4Kx2 for VR goggles. Be a while before that's up.
2020-12-19T19:32:24Z aeth: heh, no
2020-12-19T19:32:40Z mdhughes: And then doing everything in GPU is a bottleneck.
2020-12-19T19:32:40Z aeth: I definitely think that VR could plausibly reach the limit at 16Kx16Kx2
2020-12-19T19:32:42Z jcowan: I didn't have to toggle in the bootstrap at the front panel, just set the address into the switches, press Load Address, Clear, and Run.  That pointed to an address in ROM that would call the actual device driver (also in the ROM)
2020-12-19T19:33:25Z aeth: mdhughes: Fortunately, it looks like we'll have at least enough of Moore's law left to handle 2x 16K displays for VR in the future...
2020-12-19T19:33:47Z jcowan: That is for those people who don't get carsick from VR as I do.
2020-12-19T19:35:46Z mdhughes: Yeah, I don't have that problem. But it's been decades since I had real glasses, just Cardboard, which is a toy.
2020-12-19T19:42:17Z Zipheir: It's interesting that Among Us, which seems to be the only game on the planet at the moment, has approximately 1998-state-of-the-art 2D graphics.  Game quality is semi-orthogonal to graphics fanciness.
2020-12-19T19:42:54Z aeth: I mean, that's the game industry.
2020-12-19T19:43:10Z aeth: Games with marketing budgets in the hundreds of millions with as many players as games made by 1-5 people.
2020-12-19T19:43:18Z aeth: (in the case of Among Us, 3)
2020-12-19T19:43:59Z aeth: If you want to track things: https://steamdb.info/
2020-12-19T19:47:56Z mdhughes: Yeah, I play currently: ESO (100-ish company), some WoW (thousands, but early '00s 3D), Minecraft (<10, '90s OpenGL tech), Animal Crossing (hundreds, "3D" used to make a 2D game), and a lot of retro games from itch.io (1 dev each, mostly 2D or Unity shovelware).
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2020-12-20T08:57:27Z amirouche: morning #scheme!
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2020-12-20T09:37:06Z mdhughes: Something like that.
2020-12-20T09:55:18Z edgar-rft: comes close
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2020-12-20T16:23:24Z duncanm: la la la
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2020-12-20T17:15:04Z amirouche: duncanm: you are not a bot!
2020-12-20T17:15:28Z amirouche: It is been a while, I was under the impression you were somehow the bot friend of rudybot
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2020-12-20T19:30:51Z remby: what is the enclosing continuation for exit? https://bpa.st/MX7Q
2020-12-20T19:36:26Z remby: I think it would be the anonymous lambda
2020-12-20T19:41:16Z Zipheir: What's an "anonymous lambda"?
2020-12-20T19:42:23Z remby: the (lambda (s) ... part
2020-12-20T19:42:32Z remby: since it hasn't been given a name
2020-12-20T19:42:40Z Zipheir: Oh, yes.
2020-12-20T19:45:45Z Zipheir: It's not just the rest of the lambda body, though; it's the entire remaining computation.
2020-12-20T19:46:24Z Zipheir: And the (lambda (s) ...) form *has* been given a name with define (at least, I can't think of any other meaning for "give a name" in Scheme)
2020-12-20T19:47:03Z aeth: yes
2020-12-20T19:47:08Z aeth: If it's a lambda in a define, it's named
2020-12-20T19:47:18Z aeth: at least, directly... Implementations probably special-case it
2020-12-20T19:47:52Z aeth: (define foo (lambda () ...)) and (define (foo) ...) are probably identical in most implementations, naming the lambda if the procedure has a runtime name at all
2020-12-20T19:48:43Z aeth: e.g. in Racket (define foo (lambda () #f)) foo => #<procedure:foo>
2020-12-20T19:48:46Z aeth: So it does get the name
2020-12-20T19:50:01Z remby: right
2020-12-20T19:50:17Z remby: so in this case I would call the continuation list-product?
2020-12-20T19:54:27Z Zipheir: Well, if you called list-product to escape from list-product...
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2020-12-20T19:56:26Z Zipheir: I'm not sure why you need a name for the continuation beyond 'exit'.
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2020-12-20T19:57:14Z remby: I was reading about one inside (+ 1 []) where [] is the hole, the called that expression the continuation, so it helped to visualize it
2020-12-20T19:58:02Z remby: (list-product '(1 2 3)) I don't see the hole in this case, which is why I wondered what the "continuation" is called
2020-12-20T19:59:48Z Zipheir: Can you write the (+ 1 []) expression as a normal Scheme expression with call/cc?
2020-12-20T20:01:50Z remby: https://bpa.st/YH7Q
2020-12-20T20:02:07Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-12-20T20:02:34Z Zipheir: So you just need to do some β-reduction on (list-product '(1 2 3)) to see where the hole is.
2020-12-20T20:03:57Z remby: I assume that is the rewritting part
2020-12-20T20:04:30Z Zipheir: (list-product '(1 2 3)) => ((lambda (s) []) '(1 2 3))
2020-12-20T20:04:54Z Zipheir: (first step)
2020-12-20T20:05:24Z Zipheir: No reduction there, just replacing list-product with its def.
2020-12-20T20:07:17Z remby: oh I see
2020-12-20T20:07:34Z remby: so the hole appears at call/cc
2020-12-20T20:09:32Z Zipheir: As you'd expect, given that it's an "escape" continuation.  It just allows you to fill in the hole early, once a zero has been encountered.
2020-12-20T20:14:56Z remby: thanks
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2020-12-20T20:31:14Z JohnTalent: have any of you programmed under tinyscheme?
2020-12-20T20:35:19Z Zipheir: In its Script-Fu incarnation, yes.
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2020-12-20T20:41:12Z Zipheir: It's quite usable.  I think the lack of any macro forms beyond defmacro is probably the biggest limitation.
2020-12-20T20:42:19Z Zipheir: Well, obviously the *big* limitation is the lack of library support.  But that's to be expected with a "tiny" implementation.
2020-12-20T21:07:17Z mdhughes: It's nice for wrapping C functions and statically compiling a program with scripting. It's not really a good tool for general programming.
2020-12-20T21:08:25Z JohnTalent: I tried using a maco in tinyscheme and the thing just died silently.
2020-12-20T21:08:31Z JohnTalent: a while macro.
2020-12-20T21:08:39Z JohnTalent: (To simulate a while loop)
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2020-12-20T21:28:20Z amirouche: lockywolf: hey, where are the videos for ICFP 2020 they are not in their youtube channel
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2020-12-20T22:52:10Z jcowan: the continuation for exit is the shell.
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2020-12-20T23:28:40Z Zipheir: JohnTalent: Can you paste your macro?
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2020-12-20T23:51:05Z lockywolf: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyrlk8Xaylp7rQA85egGQe_KzR8Aj6b5s
2020-12-20T23:51:33Z lockywolf: amirouche, ^
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2020-12-21T17:38:59Z amirouche: lockywolf: thanks
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2020-12-21T19:33:56Z remby: for a nested for-each, does the call/cc have to be inside the outer moster lambda to exit?
2020-12-21T19:34:00Z remby: https://paste.centos.org/view/d0900064
2020-12-21T19:35:19Z amirouche: yes
2020-12-21T19:35:45Z gwatt: remby: the call/cc has to be wherever you want to go back to. That could be anywhere
2020-12-21T19:36:09Z remby: ok, I think I'm starting to get call/cc a little bit
2020-12-21T19:36:30Z remby: what do you return if you don't care usually?
2020-12-21T19:36:42Z gwatt: whatever the value of the last expression is
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2020-12-21T19:38:03Z gwatt: while not standardized, many (most?) schemes have a defined "void" or "unspecified" value. This is usually returned from the procedures whose description reads "The return value is unspecified"
2020-12-21T19:40:59Z remby: I'm now really curious how schemers did day 1 :^)
2020-12-21T19:41:11Z gwatt: day 1?
2020-12-21T19:41:20Z Zipheir: (if #f #f) is the portable way to get "the unspecified value".
2020-12-21T19:41:30Z Zipheir: Advent of Code, presumably.
2020-12-21T19:41:43Z gwatt: ah, that makes sense.
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2020-12-21T19:50:27Z jcowan: Not portable to Racket, which treats that as a syntax error except when the continuation takes zero values.
2020-12-21T19:55:08Z gwatt: remby: I would have separated out the reading of the input file from the find + multiply.
2020-12-21T19:55:44Z remby: isn't it separate?
2020-12-21T19:55:53Z remby: since it's in the let expression intro
2020-12-21T19:56:17Z gwatt: ah, you're right, nvm. I missed that.
2020-12-21T19:56:19Z remby: I could do define too, but I thought it would be better to use let
2020-12-21T19:57:18Z aeth: Zipheir: unspecified means unspecified, though, which means it could be anything
2020-12-21T19:57:30Z aeth: sort of touching on what jcowan said
2020-12-21T19:57:59Z Zipheir: Hence the scare quotes.
2020-12-21T19:58:17Z jcowan: Actually, no, Racket now seems to bad two-armed if constructs in all contexts.  There is still when, though.
2020-12-21T19:58:33Z aeth: personally, I'd just pull a CL and return #f
2020-12-21T19:58:41Z Zipheir: So (when #f #t)?
2020-12-21T19:58:58Z Zipheir: #f already does too much in Lisp.
2020-12-21T19:59:00Z jcowan: Or (when #f #f)
2020-12-21T19:59:15Z Zipheir: Pfft.  Racket being Racket.
2020-12-21T19:59:26Z aeth: Zipheir: no need for a pointless new value that breaks the type system and makes everything-as-expressions less useful, imo
2020-12-21T19:59:56Z aeth: in most of the "unspecified" cases of Scheme, most other Lisps either return the thing itself (e.g. what they'd probably do with display) or their equivalent of #f
2020-12-21T20:00:13Z Zipheir: #f as the universal failure value already breaks strong typing.
2020-12-21T20:00:30Z aeth: it's not a failure
2020-12-21T20:00:50Z aeth: it's a default value when there's nothing better to return
2020-12-21T20:00:54Z aeth: often overridable
2020-12-21T20:01:25Z jcowan: In most Lisps it really is a unique value, but in some it is "whatever trash is left in the return register"
2020-12-21T20:01:27Z Zipheir: It's still interpreted as failure, e.g. in cond.
2020-12-21T20:01:57Z jcowan: In Racket, or elsewhere?
2020-12-21T20:02:24Z Zipheir: #f, I mean.
2020-12-21T20:02:52Z jcowan: Oh, I thought you meant "the undefined value" in Schemes that have one; they treat it as true.
2020-12-21T20:03:04Z aeth: #f as the near-universal default return value for when there's nothing better to return is a useful shortcut sometimes when iterating
2020-12-21T20:03:24Z aeth: CL sometimes overdoes NIL, though, e.g. (car nil) => nil
2020-12-21T20:03:33Z Zipheir: Of course.  The convention is mostly harmless.
2020-12-21T20:03:36Z aeth: Sometimes, it's easy to accidentally insert a NIL in CL
2020-12-21T20:04:36Z aeth: e.g. (car nil) and (cdr nil) are nil so if you iterate the wrong way, you'll iterate one too many times, and mistakenly have NIL as the last value.
2020-12-21T20:04:44Z jcowan: Hence all those convention translations in SRFI 189
2020-12-21T20:04:57Z Zipheir: I was referring to aeth's description of #f as a "default value"; that it may be, but many forms take advantage of the pun with a boolean value.
2020-12-21T20:05:18Z jcowan: aeth: That was a sop to Interlisp, but when Interlisp went CL it was in a very different way.  Scheme has (car ()) => error because Maclisp did.
2020-12-21T20:05:41Z jcowan: I'm always amused when CL people give rationalizations for (car ()) => ().
2020-12-21T20:05:46Z Zipheir: Right.  As SRFI 189 shows, the conventions become *much* hairier with multiple values.
2020-12-21T20:06:24Z Zipheir: That's just a mistake, IMO.
2020-12-21T20:06:40Z Zipheir: car and cdr aren't total functions.  It's quite simple.
2020-12-21T20:07:06Z jcowan: It was political
2020-12-21T20:08:05Z gwatt: Zipheir: are they not total functions? They're well behaved for all pairs. '() is not a pair
2020-12-21T20:08:32Z jcowan: Similarly, LAMBDA being a special form was a sop to ISLisp, or kmp specifically.  Now CL programmers almost always write (lambda ...) instead of #'(lambda ...) or (function (lambda ...))
2020-12-21T20:09:26Z Zipheir: gwatt: Good point.  As functions List α -> α and List α -> List α, they're partial, but Scheme has no list type.
2020-12-21T20:09:38Z aeth: (lambda ...) looks better than #'(lambda ...) and since it's equivalent performance and works everywhere, that wins
2020-12-21T20:09:51Z aeth: aesthetics always win at the end (as long as it's equal performance and works everywhere)
2020-12-21T20:10:00Z gwatt: jcowan: I believe in CL ((lambda ...) ...) is also defined. For any other non-defun invocation you have to use (funcall ...)
2020-12-21T20:10:49Z jcowan: Yes.  That goes way back into Lisp, and makes sense when you realize that the car of a function call is special (it isn't in Scheme, of course).  It can be a symbol or a lambda, and that's it.
2020-12-21T20:11:22Z jcowan: If you use a symbol in the operand position, you get the general value, rather than the function-value, of that symbol.
2020-12-21T20:11:52Z jcowan: So it makes sense that (map 1+ '(1 2 3 4)) will not work, since it asks for the general value of 1+, which does not exist.
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2020-12-21T21:18:15Z sm2n_: gambitscheme.org seems to be down?
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2020-12-21T21:25:24Z wasamasa: doesn't matter, has been used as base for like three scheme implementation
2020-12-21T21:25:25Z wasamasa: s
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2020-12-21T21:45:08Z remby: I would think the when expression evaluates and then the continuation is jumped, but that doesn't happen https://paste.centos.org/view/d8cabb95
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2020-12-21T21:45:37Z remby: oh I see
2020-12-21T21:45:42Z remby: I'm dumb
2020-12-21T21:45:51Z remby: don't mind me lol
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2020-12-21T23:04:13Z jcowan: sm2n_: The docs are at http://www-labs.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/ and the source is on Github
2020-12-21T23:05:22Z wasamasa: still weird as the source points to that website
2020-12-21T23:05:41Z wasamasa: https://github.com/gambit/gambit/issues/634
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2020-12-21T23:07:52Z jcowan: Yes, I don't know why.  The Github site is gambit/gambit, not gambitproject/gambit (unrelated)
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2020-12-21T23:30:30Z remby: do scheme programmers expect a thread implementation or does everyone just do things with call/cc
2020-12-21T23:32:29Z Riastradh: Usually the thread implementation is defined in terms of call-with-current-continuation or similar.
2020-12-21T23:33:02Z remby: I see
2020-12-21T23:33:13Z remby: so somethings usually there
2020-12-21T23:33:27Z remby: I've now completed day 1 without including jumps https://paste.centos.org/view/b5925376 and I wanted to run the queries in threads :P
2020-12-21T23:33:49Z remby: so this is where I'll have to venture into the specifics of my scheme
2020-12-21T23:36:10Z jcowan: SRFI 18 is an interface to the implementation's own threads, which are not necessarily call/cc based.  However, not all implementations support it.
2020-12-21T23:36:36Z Zipheir: I don't think you need to use concurrency in this year's Advent of Code (as far as I've seen).
2020-12-21T23:36:42Z remby: ah yeah this is where I'm really starting to value SRFI's
2020-12-21T23:37:23Z remby: Zipheir: yeah that's probably true
2020-12-21T23:37:36Z remby: but I would like to do concurrency more (in general)
2020-12-21T23:38:59Z Zipheir: Well, if Advent of Code is good for anything, it's good for trying out new techniques and paradigms.
2020-12-21T23:42:31Z Zipheir: The puzzles often seem to assume that beloved-of-imperative-programmers O(1) (sorta) array access/update, though, making some puzzles a bigger challenge with functional or relational techniques.
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2020-12-21T23:51:12Z remby: Zipheir: yeah
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2020-12-21T23:51:36Z remby: I've starting to think for the rest I'll have to transform it into another problem instead of bruteforcing it
2020-12-21T23:51:49Z remby: Zipheir: are you making use of vectors?
2020-12-21T23:53:28Z Zipheir: My Scheme solutions have been in miniKanren so far, so no.  I used an array in my Haskell version of the Day 8 puzzle, where the input is just a long read-only program.
2020-12-21T23:54:14Z remby: oh cool :^)
2020-12-21T23:56:32Z Zipheir: I'm just doing them for some recreation puzzle fun, so I have no idea if I'll actually do all of the puzzles or just forget about it at some point.
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2020-12-22T00:01:59Z mdhughes: Solving a bunch of my own parsing problems with my growable StringBuffer, makes me want a vector version. There's a flexvector SRFI, might be portable.
2020-12-22T00:03:35Z mdhughes: Mostly I get away with cons/reverse lists, but there's places where I need O(1) access to the sequence.
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2020-12-22T01:31:27Z jcowan: mdhughes: The SRFI 214 code is at https://github.com/ar-nelson/scheme-flexvectors
2020-12-22T01:32:29Z jcowan: It should be completely portable.
2020-12-22T01:32:34Z Riastradh: asymptotically optimal https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/xvector.scm
2020-12-22T01:33:51Z Riastradh: (concrete performance is for losers in the real world)
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2020-12-22T01:42:47Z Zipheir: Cool stuff.
2020-12-22T02:01:54Z foof: you should grow by the golden mean
2020-12-22T02:04:38Z Riastradh: Aristotelian expanding vectors?
2020-12-22T02:05:16Z foof: how else will they grow into beautiful sea shells?
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2020-12-22T04:40:10Z mdhughes: I'm always wary of any algorithm with that many steps. And every -ref is going thru -locate? Ick.
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2020-12-22T04:41:18Z mdhughes: Allocating fixed-size pages might not be a bad idea, then growing would only require copying the previous pages, and -ref would use a single divmod.
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2020-12-22T09:37:41Z 
2020-12-22T09:37:41Z names: ccl-logbot oxum hendursa1 jcubic rgherdt shawnw civodul jobol ZombieChicken Riastradh frost-lab [d]__ klovett ex_nihilo kam1 alelos acarrico aeth astronavt xelxebar erkin snits `micro belmarca95 stzsch sm2n_ X-Scale notzmv lockywolf cantstanya turtleman tryte srandon111 iv-so jboy ravndal madsy hugo- mzan jackhill taw10 yumh GoGi jcowan rickbutton nikita` copec Oxyd DerGuteMoritz dpk d_run eagleflo aos davl amoe evhan rudybot nevermind averell fizzie
2020-12-22T09:37:42Z names: add^_ cibs pflanze cpape sudden m1dnight_ friscosa1 foof eMBee aoh Boarders conjunctive stux16777216Away emacsomancer Yardanico DeeEff_ stephe z0d bchar Kooda SirDayBat Balooga dozzie clog ft bsima xandkar yosafbridge rotty ozzloy danielkoning nckx choas mjsir911 ski stux|work drakonis balkamos cmatei rann nisstyre drot srji Lysandros Blkt dTal heredoc iltutmus ggoes woky Ericson2314 mbakke Gnuxie[m] even4void[m] pukkamustard[m] dieggsy kbtr
2020-12-22T09:37:42Z names: CORPORAL_groovy siraben Irvise[m] dan64 malaclyps LeoNerd _apg fgudin_ mason tessier DGASAU sdu cky GreaseMonkey DKordic amirouche brettgilio fiddlerwoaroof ecraven jxy elflng tdammers joast Khisanth null_radix[m] hugo1 Formbi epony wasamasa midre _anb fadein cross bandali pounce lloda wigust gabot manumanumanu casaca f8l oni-on-ion gwatt physpi krjst samth dnm lpsmith pinoaffe nmeum mdhughes terpri madage Ekho hyiltiz gnomon terrorjack hugh_marera
2020-12-22T09:37:42Z names: Zipheir uplime grobe0ba webshinra evdubs ArneBab jealousmonk xi matryoshka iv4nshm4k0v ByronJohnson gagbo xlei mario-goulart titanbiscuit ohama Zenton kilimanjaro cemerick sp1ff edgar-rft hive-mind daviid lad rubic88 ineiros bashbjorn weinholt kjak topoi lortabac lavaflow elly
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2020-12-22T10:29:51Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-12-22T10:55:05Z edgar-rft: rudybot: shut up
2020-12-22T10:55:07Z rudybot: edgar-rft: My mum always told me: if you can't say anything funny, shut the fuck up
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2020-12-22T12:17:06Z siraben: rudybot: got eem
2020-12-22T12:17:08Z rudybot: siraben: the markdown that Slack supports doesn't eem to pick it up when I try to type the tags in an IRC message, but I prefer to screenshot stuff and just paste a link
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2020-12-22T12:29:29Z amirouche: rudybot: you use visual studio?
2020-12-22T12:29:45Z rudybot: amirouche: unless you count windows shops that have to use visual studio
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2020-12-22T13:20:23Z siraben: rubic88: what do you think of NixOS
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2020-12-22T16:55:14Z codingquark: Hello! I am new to mit-scheme (or any scheme, really). I want to iterate over a list such that I first I have the first element in the "outer" loop, iterate over the other elements and check their sum one by one. I tried doing (do) inside another (do), but then I realised I won't have access to the element set by outer do inside the inner do and now I am all confused about what I am doing.
2020-12-22T16:55:41Z codingquark: If you want direct reference to what I'm doing - I'm trying to work on the first puzzle of AdventOfCode :-P
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2020-12-22T16:56:56Z wasamasa: lol
2020-12-22T16:57:36Z wasamasa: for-each is sufficient for simple loops
2020-12-22T16:57:47Z wasamasa: otherwise there's always named let to write more complicated ones
2020-12-22T16:57:54Z wasamasa: I only use do for porting C code
2020-12-22T16:59:45Z codingquark: Okay, I will look at for-each then
2020-12-22T17:00:16Z wasamasa: but even with do nothing stops you from iterating over the same list in the outside and inside loop
2020-12-22T17:01:11Z codingquark: Right! Stupid me
2020-12-22T17:02:31Z Zipheir: "do" is a complex form that many Schemers tend to avoid.
2020-12-22T17:03:03Z Riastradh: I mostly use do only for (do ((i 0 (+ i 1))) ((>= i n)) ...).
2020-12-22T17:04:15Z Zipheir: codingquark: It's hard to see exactly what you're doing, but something like (map (lambda (lis) (list (car lis) (sum (cdr lis)))) lol) might be helpful.
2020-12-22T17:04:23Z wasamasa: lol indeed
2020-12-22T17:04:41Z wasamasa: or alol in HtDP tradition
2020-12-22T17:04:46Z Zipheir: Yup.
2020-12-22T17:06:30Z codingquark: That looks like the solution! wow
2020-12-22T17:06:34Z codingquark: That's neat
2020-12-22T17:09:00Z Zipheir: Cool!
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2020-12-22T17:22:07Z codingquark: For the sake of completeness, and perhaps to discuss more if someone is interested here is the exact nature of the problem. Suppose you have (2 3 4 10). Find out 2 numbers (there will be only one possible pair) whose sum is X
2020-12-22T17:22:57Z codingquark: The most naive way I can think of is to take the first element, sum it with the rest of the elements one by one. Take the second one, sum the cdr and so on
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2020-12-22T17:26:50Z Zipheir: Sounds familiar.
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2020-12-22T17:31:58Z Zipheir: 2sum and 3sum have been really popular topic on IRC since Advent of Code started this month.
2020-12-22T17:32:06Z Zipheir: topics, even
2020-12-22T17:32:16Z Riastradh: 2Sum!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2Sum
2020-12-22T17:32:17Z remby: what do those functions do?
2020-12-22T17:32:20Z remby: ah
2020-12-22T17:32:29Z Riastradh: remby: don't mind me, I'm deliberately misinterpreting
2020-12-22T17:32:35Z remby: oof
2020-12-22T17:32:53Z Riastradh: (that said, 2Sum is a great, if quite simple, algorithm, as is Fast2Sum)
2020-12-22T17:33:42Z remby: chez looks like it's built on top of pthreads, but they didn't quite give you the pthreads api
2020-12-22T17:33:53Z Riastradh: (unless you want to do floating-point with radix other than 2 or 3, in which case Fast2Sum won't work)
2020-12-22T17:34:15Z Zipheir: Then there's Wadler, et al's (unrelated) paper, "Threesomes with and without blame".
2020-12-22T17:34:19Z remby: I'm now wondering how to wait for my threads to complete
2020-12-22T17:34:28Z remby: what a title
2020-12-22T17:35:27Z Riastradh: remby: flag/mutex/condvar
2020-12-22T17:35:51Z remby: I am thinking about using a mutex, but not quite sure what to do
2020-12-22T17:36:31Z remby: so I have 2 threads I want to spawn, I don't want to give them both mutexes since that would be the same as non threaded
2020-12-22T17:37:06Z Riastradh: (let ((flag #f) (lock (make-mutex)) (cv (make-condition))) (fork-thread (lambda () ... (with-mutex lock (set! flag #t) (condition-signal cv)))) ... (with-mutex lock (do () (flag) (condition-wait cv lock]
2020-12-22T17:38:33Z remby: thanks
2020-12-22T17:38:43Z remby: yeah I need two things not just one
2020-12-22T17:39:12Z Riastradh: OK, so one flag for each thread, or count down the number you're waiting for (`barrier').
2020-12-22T17:41:23Z Riastradh: Here's a thread barrier: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/thread-barrier.scm (multi-use; for single-shot use you can skip the generation business)
2020-12-22T17:41:31Z Riastradh: (in MIT Scheme, not Chez)
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2020-12-22T17:46:31Z codingquark: Hmm, I need a way to break for-each
2020-12-22T17:46:35Z codingquark searches the Internet
2020-12-22T17:46:51Z Riastradh: codingquark: Usually you'll just write out an explicit loop, e.g. with named let, rather than use for-each in that scenario.
2020-12-22T17:47:12Z iv4nshm4k0v: codingquark: call-with-current-continuation !
2020-12-22T17:47:22Z codingquark: Riastradh: I see. Why, if I may ask?
2020-12-22T17:47:42Z Riastradh: simpler, cheaper, easier to follow
2020-12-22T17:48:08Z remby: codingquark: let
2020-12-22T17:48:13Z remby: s compare when we are done
2020-12-22T17:48:22Z codingquark: Okay!
2020-12-22T17:48:28Z codingquark: iv4nshm4k0v: thanks!
2020-12-22T17:48:58Z Riastradh: You certainly can use cwcc if you want, but it's not as common as just writing a loop with named let.
2020-12-22T17:49:28Z Riastradh: (let loop ((l l)) (if (pair? l) (let ((x (car l)) (l (cdr l))) (do-something x) (if (keep-going? x) (loop l]
2020-12-22T17:49:57Z Riastradh: Sure, you can write that as (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (exit) (for-each (lambda (x) (do-something x) (if (not (keep-going? x)) (exit))) l))).
2020-12-22T17:50:10Z codingquark: Yeah, named loop looks cleaner it seems
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2020-12-22T18:00:09Z Zipheir: SRFI 1's find.
2020-12-22T18:01:34Z Zipheir: If only streams were a little more easily accessible in Scheme.  We'd have fewer weird breaking loops.
2020-12-22T18:02:00Z Riastradh: There's also loop macros, like <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.scm>.
2020-12-22T18:04:03Z Zipheir: And that.
2020-12-22T18:09:13Z Zipheir: "Named let loops are GOTO loops.  And GOTO is a good tool for writing loops??" --Olin
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2020-12-22T18:09:50Z Zipheir: We'll probably never find out what Olin's idea of "a good tool for writing loops" was.
2020-12-22T18:15:29Z mdhughes: I use really trivial (for (var start end [step]) ...) and (repeat n ...) macros, both just named let inside. while/do-until type loops are just named let.
2020-12-22T18:16:00Z Riastradh: Zipheir: https://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/loop.pdf
2020-12-22T18:16:34Z mdhughes: Ultimately any loop is an ASM BRA/JMP instruction. Best to focus on higher level problems.
2020-12-22T18:16:46Z Zipheir: Yeah, I've seen that, as well as the talk at Dan Friedman's birthday party https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCzNwWmQdb0
2020-12-22T18:17:21Z Zipheir: But the code has never emerged.  Some people claimed to have a copy, IIRC.
2020-12-22T18:17:22Z Riastradh: (but foof-loop and nested-foof-loop actually exist in real public implementations in the wild)
2020-12-22T18:17:45Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2020-12-22T18:18:20Z Zipheir: Anyway, Olin's loop was apparently a very complex system of macros.
2020-12-22T18:25:28Z amirouche: Zipheir: was is complicated about streams?
2020-12-22T18:25:31Z mdhughes: It looks from the paper like he built a CPS state machine on top of Scheme which is often implemented with a CPS state machine.
2020-12-22T18:26:21Z Zipheir: In the sense that you've got to import them and rewrite all of your list expressions using them.
2020-12-22T18:26:57Z mdhughes: I kinda see the point of making a big macro to make the specific state machine used by each loop, but doing them in any way but a named let loop ought to be very slow.
2020-12-22T18:27:01Z Zipheir: SRFI 41 even streams also require some additional comprehension.  SRFI 127 is easier to drop-in.
2020-12-22T18:28:33Z suq_madiq: Zipheir, debatable
2020-12-22T18:28:45Z suq_madiq: i don't fully agree on what you say
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2020-12-22T18:39:18Z amirouche: how?
2020-12-22T18:40:25Z amirouche: agreed srfi-127 or 158 are not in scheme base, I rewrite what I need, when I need it. It is such a simple but powerful mechanic.
2020-12-22T18:41:26Z amirouche: generator->list list->generator or even make-coroutine-generator are easy to remember
2020-12-22T18:58:53Z suq_madiq: amirouche, srfi-127 and 158 are NOT in the scheme base indeed
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2020-12-22T19:14:52Z mdhughes: Another influential paper from Olin: https://web.archive.org/web/20060505021549/www-static.cc.gatech.edu/~shivers/rants/msoft.html
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2020-12-23T01:27:58Z siraben: How would one implement tail-call optimization in a Scheme interpreter in a functional lanugage?
2020-12-23T01:28:01Z siraben: language*
2020-12-23T01:32:56Z oni-on-ion: can the TCO be leveraged from the hosting func lang?
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2020-12-23T01:40:34Z siraben: Maybe, what's a good way to test that?
2020-12-23T01:41:01Z aeth: If the host has TCO, then use it. Otherwise, the simplest way is a trivial trampoline.
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2020-12-23T01:41:23Z siraben: What's a trampoline?
2020-12-23T01:41:25Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_(computing)
2020-12-23T01:41:50Z aeth: Essentially, return a thunk and have an outer function that basically is while thunk call it to get the next thunk else it's a real return value
2020-12-23T01:47:01Z Zipheir: Doesn't that sort of assume the desired optimization?  Could a trampoline be implemented in, say, a minimal lambda calculus?
2020-12-23T01:47:01Z siraben: I see
2020-12-23T01:47:58Z aeth: Zipheir: I mean, it needs some sort of iteration (a simple equivalent of DO will do), but not necessarily Scheme-like iteration-via-tail-recursion... and even if it has the latter, it might not match Scheme's tail recursion semantics.
2020-12-23T01:48:36Z Zipheir: So no, it couldn't be implemented on a λ-calculus interpreter unless that already had TCO.
2020-12-23T01:49:10Z Zipheir: It's an interesting implementation problem.
2020-12-23T01:50:58Z Zipheir: But purely of theoretical interest, of course.
2020-12-23T01:53:45Z siraben: This is the interpreter of the host language https://github.com/oriansj/blynn-compiler/blob/75493bc386a4bd19d8d1ce92cf004e994d8d9932/vm.c#L445
2020-12-23T01:55:10Z Riastradh: Presumably the host language has _some_ mechanism for iteration in bounded space.
2020-12-23T01:55:44Z oni-on-ion: how come pc() has a return type
2020-12-23T01:56:06Z oni-on-ion: & buf_put()
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2020-12-23T01:58:08Z siraben: I think it does, because I haven't encountered heap exhaustion yet
2020-12-23T01:58:18Z siraben: and some of the Haskell programs are large; https://github.com/oriansj/blynn-compiler/blob/master/precisely.hs
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2020-12-23T02:09:42Z oni-on-ion: oh my
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2020-12-23T05:54:19Z codingquark: http://ix.io/2JdT -> the for-each version of my solution (does not terminate when the pair is found)
2020-12-23T06:04:13Z remby: having some problems with the order of my mutex and condition codes, any ideas? https://paste.centos.org/view/64224887
2020-12-23T06:06:39Z Riastradh: remby: When you do (set! flag #t), you are changing only the local variable inside work, which has no relation to the variables done1 and done2.
2020-12-23T06:07:05Z Riastradh: You may wish to do something instead like
2020-12-23T06:07:12Z remby: Riastradh: so I need to use a "global"
2020-12-23T06:07:17Z Riastradh: (let ((done1 (make-vector 1 #f)) (done2 (make-vector 1 #f))) ...)
2020-12-23T06:07:24Z Riastradh: and (vector-set! flag 0 #t)
2020-12-23T06:08:21Z Riastradh: That way, it is the same object that the two parts of the program read from and write to.
2020-12-23T06:14:47Z remby: Riastradh: thanks!
2020-12-23T06:14:52Z Riastradh: And using the same global variable would also work, yes, but it's not as nice for composing programs out of parts.
2020-12-23T06:15:21Z remby: I'm just trying to hack right now, elegance can wait :P
2020-12-23T06:19:56Z Zipheir: codingquark: Holy side-effects Batman!
2020-12-23T06:20:25Z codingquark: I'm sorry I used set!
2020-12-23T06:20:39Z Riastradh: remby: Also: I would recommend you use with-mutex (simpler), or at least pair mutex-acquire/release.
2020-12-23T06:21:12Z codingquark: Zipheir: though it seems simple to prepare (cons) when (cond) is matched...
2020-12-23T06:21:43Z Zipheir: I'm not sure I know what that means.
2020-12-23T06:22:16Z Zipheir: I'm just wondering why you need set! at all.  Just call a continuation when the pair is found.
2020-12-23T06:22:32Z codingquark: Zipheir: that is what I meant, yes
2020-12-23T06:23:14Z remby: Riastradh: thanks, I didn't know how to apply that so I didn't look into it
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2020-12-23T07:11:58Z codingquark: http://ix.io/2Jef/scheme
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2020-12-23T07:20:04Z remby: Riastradh: using my technique, I think I need to loop in order to stall https://paste.centos.org/view/f70072d1
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2020-12-23T07:20:34Z remby: since done1 and done2 are #f that form never evaluates
2020-12-23T07:21:38Z remby: codingquark: that work?
2020-12-23T07:22:23Z codingquark: remby: looks like it...
2020-12-23T07:23:34Z remby: looks like it to me too
2020-12-23T07:23:37Z codingquark: I am thinking about not looping through the entire list in the inner loop. If I could somehow only loop through the cdr of the list /after/ the outer loop's "current" element...
2020-12-23T07:23:42Z codingquark: remby: yay
2020-12-23T07:23:48Z remby: which scheme are you using?
2020-12-23T07:23:55Z codingquark: mit-scheme
2020-12-23T07:23:59Z remby: oh cool
2020-12-23T07:25:29Z codingquark: May be I can use let to define two lists and iterate over /them/ instead
2020-12-23T07:35:56Z codingquark: http://ix.io/2Jeo I changed the inner for-each to named loop to improve things
2020-12-23T07:35:59Z codingquark: Do you like it?
2020-12-23T07:38:41Z remby: yeah, I didn't think of using call/cc outside of a function but yeah good job
2020-12-23T07:38:55Z remby: I've been trying to run part 1 and part 2 in threads
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2020-12-23T07:42:35Z codingquark: I took it from the ref manual ^_^
2020-12-23T07:43:53Z codingquark: Hmm, I will have to put more (cond) to check if list has been exhausted
2020-12-23T08:02:23Z remby: I stall now but I don't resume https://paste.centos.org/view/raw/4498668b
2020-12-23T08:02:27Z remby: hmmm
2020-12-23T08:06:46Z remby: yes!!!
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2020-12-23T08:10:17Z codingquark: May be I should the outer loop to named let too, to control inner `cdr` further :-P
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2020-12-23T08:32:44Z codingquark: https://gitlab.com/codingquark/adventofcode2020/-/blob/master/day1/part1.scm#L124
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2020-12-23T11:34:43Z rgherdt: hi! Any tips how to make emacs indent nanopass's define-language like this? https://docs.racket-lang.org/nanopass/index.html
2020-12-23T11:36:15Z rgherdt: in the first example, emacs aligns the lines under Expr with (e body)
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2020-12-23T12:18:27Z amirouche: rgherdt: I use a per project customization file, like this https://github.com/amirouche/ruse/blob/main/.dir-locals.el
2020-12-23T12:19:37Z amirouche: 1 is the number of arguments before the line break
2020-12-23T12:20:06Z amirouche: and scheme-indent-function is the only thing I use, they are other symbols in that field.
2020-12-23T12:34:06Z rgherdt: amirouche: thanks, the per-project file idea might be the way to go. I tried playing around with scheme-indent-function. In this case, I wanted to control indentation of the internal s-expressions of define-language, but without hardcoding them with something like "(put 'Expr 'scheme-indent-function 1)" etc.
2020-12-23T12:35:01Z rgherdt: I'll do that like you said, thx
2020-12-23T12:39:30Z mdhughes: The fundamental problem with programming in text files, is people waste 50% of their time on indentation arguments and systems.
2020-12-23T12:39:58Z mdhughes: (if you don't like "50%" as a number, go do research, except you have to count the research time against your "time wasted on indentation")
2020-12-23T12:43:11Z amirouche: in this case, it is due to nanopass syntax design. That is also the reason I avoid to create my own toplevel define-foobar forms
2020-12-23T12:45:48Z rgherdt: mdhughes: you're right, I've lost the whole morning trying to figure out how indentation in Emacs works. Should have just tiped spaces manually
2020-12-23T12:46:29Z amirouche: do not hesitate to ask questions about nanopass, I am very eager to learn more things about it
2020-12-23T12:47:12Z rgherdt: thx, I just started playing with it, looks really nice
2020-12-23T12:47:30Z amirouche: did you look at scheme-to-c compiler?
2020-12-23T12:47:40Z amirouche: by andy keep
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2020-12-23T12:49:18Z rgherdt: yes :) I want specifically to explore C code generation
2020-12-23T12:49:57Z rgherdt: so it's a nice reference
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2020-12-23T12:57:25Z amirouche: do not miss Abdulaziz's paper "incremental compiler construction"
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2020-12-23T13:14:20Z codingquark: I have (define (x a b) (let ((z 0)) (for-each (lambda (i) (+ 1 z))))) but `z` is not accessible inside the lambda.
2020-12-23T13:14:48Z codingquark: (for-each is given a list of course)
2020-12-23T13:15:59Z codingquark: Sorry, it is accessible :-P
2020-12-23T13:53:45Z rgherdt: amirouche: thanks, I didn't know that one
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2020-12-23T13:59:24Z rgherdt: codingquark: it should be, try: (let ((z 0)) (for-each (lambda (i) (display (+ i z))) '(1 2 3)))
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2020-12-23T14:15:49Z jcowan: I think the best use of `do` is when converting code from Fortran.
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2020-12-23T17:08:40Z amirouche: re srfi-167, berkeleydb (bsddb, and now Oracle bsddb) was forked by bloomberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comdb2#cite_note-4
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2020-12-23T20:39:49Z remby: done1 and done2 do not get changed to #t, but it should be since I created it in the let expression I think https://bpa.st/GXAA
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2020-12-23T21:05:48Z Riastradh: remby: You don't want to do two condition-waits in a row -- suppose c2 gets signalled first, while you're waiting for c1, and then c1 gets signalled; you'll wait forever, because the c1 wakeup happens and then you go to sleep for c2 which will never be signalled again.
2020-12-23T21:06:31Z remby: oof
2020-12-23T21:06:36Z remby: that's right
2020-12-23T21:06:37Z Riastradh: In general, the pattern is (let loop () (if (not (ready?)) (begin (condition-wait c m) (loop)))).
2020-12-23T21:07:03Z remby: funny I think I was about to do that but I thought the problem was something else
2020-12-23T21:07:04Z Riastradh: And whenever the state covered by the mutex that determines ready? changes, you signal or broadcast c.
2020-12-23T21:07:06Z remby: much thanks
2020-12-23T21:07:58Z Riastradh: (Note that condition-wait may wake up spuriously too, even if the state hasn't changed, so you always need some kind of loop.)
2020-12-23T21:08:55Z Riastradh: ...also you'll want to structure your `if' in the loop so that it works!
2020-12-23T21:09:04Z Riastradh: Right now you wait if it's all done; otherwise you loop without waiting.
2020-12-23T21:09:31Z Riastradh: So it'll either busy-wait forever in an endless loop with the mutex held, or hang forever in condition-wait.
2020-12-23T21:11:30Z Riastradh: And you really want only one mutex, not two.  (One condition variable will suffice as well.)
2020-12-23T21:12:10Z remby: yeah I see
2020-12-23T21:15:51Z remby: I forgot different processes get created when you fork
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2020-12-23T21:21:39Z Riastradh: ?  These are only threads, not processes; if it were processes then you would have to do more than merely share the variables done1 and done2.
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2020-12-23T21:22:45Z remby: my bad
2020-12-23T21:22:59Z remby: guess I'm super rusty then :P
2020-12-23T21:25:39Z remby: Riastradh: thank you!!!
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2020-12-24T00:19:32Z dieggsy: what's the name for the different procedure definition styles? i.e. (define (this) ..) vs (define this (lambda () ...))
2020-12-24T00:19:39Z dieggsy: I feel like i've heard terms for the two but i can't remember them
2020-12-24T00:20:45Z Riastradh: syntactic sugar, abbreviation?
2020-12-24T00:20:46Z Zipheir: Dybvig refers to the former as "defun syntax", but I'm not sure anyone else follows him in that.
2020-12-24T00:21:18Z Riastradh: Funny because in Common Lisp and Emacs Lisp (and predecessors like Maclisp), defun has different syntax:  (defun functionname (param1 param2 param3) ...)
2020-12-24T00:21:34Z Zipheir: Source: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/start.html#./start:h3
2020-12-24T00:23:41Z dieggsy: ah, i'd heard of the latter defined as 'dybvig style' i think
2020-12-24T00:24:33Z Riastradh: `This syntax is often referred to, somewhat pejoratively, as the ``Dybvig'' syntax for define, after the author who used it to excess despite a conciser form of expression being available.'
2020-12-24T00:25:14Z Zipheir: I love it.
2020-12-24T00:25:41Z Zipheir: AKA "Ronak syntax".
2020-12-24T00:26:22Z Riastradh: i refuse to believe the `R' stands for anything but `robot' in the asimovian tradition
2020-12-24T00:27:12Z dieggsy: Riastradh: what's the source of that quote
2020-12-24T00:27:35Z Riastradh: dieggsy: It's the `I am rubber you are glue' paraphrasing of the text Zipheir cited.
2020-12-24T00:28:01Z dieggsy: Riastradh: ah, hah
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2020-12-24T02:30:05Z aeth: I'd call it concise and long
2020-12-24T02:30:08Z aeth: because that's the difference
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2020-12-24T08:29:21Z mdhughes: I like Dybvig's version because it's easy to upgrade from lambda to case-lambda.
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2020-12-24T14:42:11Z amirouche: schemeorg conversation stalled
2020-12-24T14:42:14Z amirouche: any updates ?
2020-12-24T14:44:31Z amirouche: what do you think about pointing discuss.scheme.org to a discourse instance
2020-12-24T14:45:04Z amirouche: some people use discourse.foobar.com or forums.discourse.com
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2020-12-24T15:18:52Z amirouche: s/forums.discourse.com/forums.foobar.com/
2020-12-24T15:31:38Z gagbo1: there are foobar.discourse.com too: discourse offers a hosted tier for open source projects, so it ends up as discourse subdomains
2020-12-24T15:34:34Z amirouche: ref: https://blog.discourse.org/2018/11/free-hosting-for-open-source-v2/
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2020-12-24T15:44:35Z amirouche: imo and ime https://indiehackers.com is the best social network software, sadly it is not opensource, and does not offer hosting.
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2020-12-24T16:16:10Z codingquark: http://ix.io/2Jpx/scheme - this returns a list of start and end positions. I want to use these in substring which takes start and end as two separate args. The definition of (try-match) is taken from the reference manual. How should I change the procedures in an elegant way to make it work nicely with substring?
2020-12-24T16:16:46Z codingquark: I'm open to using something other than substring. I just want the characters of the string as defined by the (try-match)
2020-12-24T16:19:56Z wasamasa: you could use apply for that specific case
2020-12-24T16:23:01Z codingquark: hmm...
2020-12-24T16:23:53Z wasamasa: I'm used to irregex which gives me match records
2020-12-24T16:24:06Z wasamasa: it's kind of awkward, but better than ad-hoc list manipulation
2020-12-24T16:24:07Z codingquark: Is that a library?
2020-12-24T16:24:54Z wasamasa: yeah, available in many schemes
2020-12-24T16:25:20Z wasamasa: but mit-scheme also supposedly supports https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-115/srfi-115.html
2020-12-24T16:25:23Z wasamasa: so I'd look at that
2020-12-24T16:26:04Z wasamasa: same author, similar API
2020-12-24T16:27:08Z codingquark: Alright, thanks!
2020-12-24T16:28:59Z codingquark: (regexp-matches) is unbound in my interpreter
2020-12-24T16:29:25Z wasamasa: you did import the library, right
2020-12-24T16:29:35Z codingquark: :-P
2020-12-24T16:29:59Z codingquark: I've never imported libs in Scheme before
2020-12-24T16:30:13Z codingquark: So I... Just did not, silly of me. I apologise
2020-12-24T16:38:17Z codingquark: I'm curious about your suggestion about apply as well...
2020-12-24T16:38:56Z codingquark: Do you mean I should `apply` a procedure to the return value of `try-match`, which is then passed to `substring`?
2020-12-24T16:39:56Z wasamasa: if something returns a list of arguments and something else takes that amount of arguments, then apply bridges between them
2020-12-24T16:44:19Z codingquark: (try-match) returns (0 3) (for example), and (substring "string" 0 3)
2020-12-24T16:44:33Z codingquark: So it's one more argument than what's returned by try-match
2020-12-24T16:46:36Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval (apply substring "string" '(0 3))
2020-12-24T16:46:36Z rudybot: wasamasa: ; Value: "str"
2020-12-24T16:47:15Z codingquark: Hmm, let me see where I've messed up
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2020-12-24T16:48:06Z codingquark: wasamasa: thanks, that looks neat enough!
2020-12-24T17:03:12Z codingquark: Hmm, looks like even with the regexp approach, I might have to do /some/ string manipulations or make it ugly
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2020-12-24T17:23:22Z gagbo1: rudybot: eval (apply substring '("string" 0 3))
2020-12-24T17:23:28Z rudybot: gagbo1: your sandbox is ready
2020-12-24T17:23:28Z rudybot: gagbo1: ; Value: "str"
2020-12-24T17:23:42Z gagbo1: nice nice
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2020-12-24T17:33:34Z codingquark: rudybot: eval (string-search-forward "c" "ccccccccc" 8)
2020-12-24T17:33:42Z rudybot: codingquark: your sandbox is ready
2020-12-24T17:33:42Z rudybot: codingquark: error: string-search-forward: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2020-12-24T17:34:04Z codingquark: rudybot: eval (string-length "ccccccccc")
2020-12-24T17:34:05Z rudybot: codingquark: ; Value: 9
2020-12-24T17:34:15Z codingquark: What's this oddity?
2020-12-24T17:34:45Z codingquark: The error I get is ";The object 8, passed as an argument to string-search-forward, is not in the correct range."
2020-12-24T17:35:26Z codingquark: Even with index 0, 8th is the last char. Should it not be taking that as start position?
2020-12-24T17:36:31Z wasamasa: that's not a standardized procedure
2020-12-24T17:36:45Z wasamasa: and I doubt it's racket either
2020-12-24T17:36:51Z codingquark: It's mit-scheme
2020-12-24T17:37:01Z wasamasa: yes, but the bot speaks racket
2020-12-24T17:37:12Z codingquark: http://web.mit.edu/scheme_v9.2/doc/mit-scheme-ref/Searching-Strings.html
2020-12-24T17:38:00Z codingquark: I'll try (substring-search-forward)
2020-12-24T17:38:03Z codingquark: That /should/ work
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2020-12-24T17:38:30Z codingquark: Yes
2020-12-24T17:41:55Z codingquark: Sorry, substring-search-forward does not take 8 either
2020-12-24T17:42:15Z codingquark: (I kept testing with success but turns out I typed 7 instead of 8)
2020-12-24T17:44:56Z gagbo1: I've had no issue with guile equivalent "(string-index "ccccccccc" #\c 8)" so I suppose it's implementation specific indeed
2020-12-24T17:45:41Z codingquark: I want to check if a letter exists at place X. This place can be the very last place of the string. Since (string-search-forward) and (substring-search-forward) do not work, what alternative do I have? I don't want to check the length of the string to do some sorcery
2020-12-24T17:50:37Z codingquark: huh, `(string-find-next-char "ccccccccc" #\c 8)` works
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2020-12-24T18:03:50Z codingquark: I'll try string-ref
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2020-12-24T18:23:14Z codingquark: https://gitlab.com/codingquark/adventofcode2020/-/blob/master/day2/part2.scm here's what I did
2020-12-24T18:26:05Z Zipheir: Jeez, that's a lot of string hackery.  It's simpler to just write a small parser, I think.
2020-12-24T18:26:20Z wasamasa: is it though
2020-12-24T18:26:31Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-12-24T18:27:06Z codingquark: Eventually the puzzles will necessitate having to write a parser
2020-12-24T18:27:57Z codingquark: There are ways to simplify all the string-splitter hackery but I've been told it's not worth it given I'm just learning the language still
2020-12-24T18:28:18Z Zipheir: So far, a large number of them have required lots of parsing, which I think it's pretty tedious.
2020-12-24T18:28:59Z Zipheir: You can write a recursive descent parser for that without any library support.  It's not deep magic.
2020-12-24T18:29:18Z codingquark takes notes
2020-12-24T18:29:44Z Zipheir: (Not even recursive, since this is a regular language.  It's just "consume this, then consume that".)
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2020-12-24T18:32:49Z jcowan: I loved recursive descent parsers for decades, ever since I first read about them and adopted them.  But I have written so many now that I find them revolting to write down now.
2020-12-24T18:33:01Z jcowan: A little macro library would probably help.
2020-12-24T18:36:20Z Riastradh: maybe a little lalr parser generator would help
2020-12-24T18:36:48Z Riastradh: and/or a little nfa abstraction to scan the input
2020-12-24T18:37:01Z Zipheir: The nfa is really the right tool for the job here.
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2020-12-24T18:38:56Z codingquark: I don't even know these terms :-P
2020-12-24T18:39:00Z codingquark: I'm taking notes
2020-12-24T18:43:56Z Zipheir: I'll have an example for you in one second.-
2020-12-24T18:45:38Z codingquark: wut!
2020-12-24T18:50:07Z Zipheir: codingquark: Barely tested, translated from my Prolog solution http://ix.io/2Jqg
2020-12-24T18:56:01Z Zipheir: So doing char-at-a-time parsing tends to be more lines of code, strictly speaking, than the "Perl approach" of duct-taping together regexes and string-munging functions, but it does tend to be more predictable, and it's possible to produce meaningful error messages when things break.
2020-12-24T18:56:25Z aeth: char at a time parsing isn't that bad
2020-12-24T18:56:59Z aeth: The problem is that it will be easy to introduce bugs with a small change, i.e. addressing one addition will probably regress an already-accepted syntax.
2020-12-24T18:57:00Z codingquark: This looks much more structured for sure.
2020-12-24T18:57:46Z iv4nshm4k0v: Neither is the "Perl approach," methinks.  Especially when you recognize REs as a programming language in itself.
2020-12-24T18:58:58Z codingquark: I really like this approach. I mean it's a completely different way of looking at the parsing.
2020-12-24T18:59:15Z codingquark: Zipheir: thanks! This is greatly helpful :)
2020-12-24T18:59:53Z aeth: "The Perl approach" to me is doing things line-by-line rather than character by character.
2020-12-24T19:00:14Z aeth: Regexes are probably involved, but the line-by-line thing is the important bit
2020-12-24T19:00:36Z iv4nshm4k0v: Prolog and REs both have in common that they implement backtracking.  Sadly, it's about the only part of Perl that does that.
2020-12-24T19:00:45Z Zipheir: codingquark: Enjoy.  It may be easier to just use your original version.  It's just Advent of Code.
2020-12-24T19:00:55Z aeth: Essentially, 'the Perl approach" is read-line instead of read-char. I guess read-char is "the C approach"?
2020-12-24T19:01:31Z Zipheir: The "Perl approach", to my understanding, is "it's broken now, but with one more pattern..."
2020-12-24T19:01:38Z aeth: line-by-line will naturally allocate a lot of intermediate strings...
2020-12-24T19:02:08Z codingquark: After reading the char-by-char parsing code, it's much simpler to my brain
2020-12-24T19:02:10Z Riastradh: `regular expression' and `backtracking' are a contradiction in terms
2020-12-24T19:02:31Z aeth: Riastradh: Most regular expressions aren't true regular expressions. They're extended, and the extensions make them no longer fit the CS definition.
2020-12-24T19:02:52Z Riastradh: ...which is bad, because real regular expressions are useful and provide helpful engineering and security guarantees.
2020-12-24T19:03:28Z Riastradh: `lex is good actually'
2020-12-24T19:03:33Z aeth: yes, that's the true divide... real regular expressions and imaginary regular expressions.
2020-12-24T19:03:52Z iv4nshm4k0v favors complex REs
2020-12-24T19:05:55Z Zipheir: It's strange to me that (a) the NFA approach of lex doesn't show up in more places and (b) Rob Pike's "structural regexes" are still super obscure.
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2020-12-24T19:07:30Z Riastradh: sometimes I write entire programs with lex, including the main function
2020-12-24T19:09:01Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Can you link your NFA pattern-action thingy?  I thought I had a copy, but apparently not on this machine.
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2020-12-24T19:09:48Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20190624/
2020-12-24T19:10:35Z Zipheir: Thanks!
2020-12-24T19:12:13Z Zipheir: It's such a useful general approach, but, without lex or something similar, you're stuck with (wastefully) trying to match a set of regexes.
2020-12-24T19:15:07Z Riastradh: maybe someone should finish that lex draft (needs some testing, probably has bugs, could stand a better abstraction for symbols and generalization of bol/eol/eof state machine, algorithm could be improved to compress states like flex does, &c.)
2020-12-24T19:17:22Z Zipheir: I've indented to, for a while now.
2020-12-24T19:17:31Z Zipheir: INTENDED.
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2020-12-24T19:29:19Z Riastradh: Indentured servitude to this task?
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2020-12-24T20:31:50Z jcowan luuuuves structural regexes
2020-12-24T20:49:03Z mdhughes: You can use irregex to get PCRE in Scheme, and I did in my AOC a couple years ago.
2020-12-24T20:50:28Z mdhughes: But for the later problems, write a tokenizer (dumb state machine to add chars to current word or push the word & change state) and then the actual parser just consumes word tokens.
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2020-12-24T20:53:03Z mdhughes: Also, always remember you can do (system "sed ... <input00.txt >tmp00.txt") and parse it.
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2020-12-25T01:38:32Z daviid: apart from stklos, gauche and guile, anyone knows if there is(are) other scheme that implement clos?
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2020-12-25T01:45:32Z a92: Isn't CLOS Common Lisp Object System and thus not part of Scheme?
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2020-12-25T02:19:46Z aeth: afaik, the only Scheme that will "implement CLOS" is my Scheme, when I get around to finishing it
2020-12-25T02:19:58Z aeth: since it should be near-trivial to expose it
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2020-12-25T03:47:19Z Riastradh: daviid: sos in mit-scheme
2020-12-25T03:54:10Z daviid: Riastradh: ok, tx
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2020-12-25T09:14:09Z mdhughes: There's a CLOS-like for CHICKEN.
2020-12-25T09:15:21Z mdhughes: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/coops
2020-12-25T09:15:30Z amirouche: the name is perfect
2020-12-25T09:16:39Z mdhughes: eggsactly.
2020-12-25T09:17:59Z mdhughes: I ended up writing my own OOP system (because of course I did), but it often makes more sense to just use records with inheritance.
2020-12-25T09:19:34Z mdhughes: The ugly part is you either have to know what record-type each field or method is defined on, or duplicate it for each sub-record-type.
2020-12-25T09:19:44Z amirouche: what about generics?
2020-12-25T09:20:31Z mdhughes: But that can be automated, I generate simple I/O & printing for my records with a Python (heresy!) script.
2020-12-25T09:22:19Z mdhughes: We still don't have a good generic system. There's the generic accessors SRFI, but that's about it.
2020-12-25T09:22:52Z mdhughes: Gerbil has a really good (but impl-specific) class system that's as fast as records.
2020-12-25T09:22:57Z amirouche: there is chibi generics http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/generic.html
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2020-12-25T09:28:50Z mdhughes: I think at some point I'll just make a higher-level record-defining macro and it'll be just like having a full class system. But then I look at how long people spend on big macro systems, and I have work to do…
2020-12-25T09:42:48Z mdhughes: Oh, and the other option is a really stupid send function that reflects on the record type to find the correct field, cache it in a hashtable. It'd be slow on the first call, but no worse than CLOS on repeat calls.
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2020-12-25T19:01:28Z jcowan: Generic functions are the good part of OOP, and I think Chibi handles them very well. It needs to support a notion of predicate subsumption (right now, whichever method is defined last wins), and that brings in complications.
2020-12-25T19:02:10Z jcowan: Given that, it could integrate well with existing multiple inheritance systems.
2020-12-25T19:19:31Z bandali: jcowan, hey, re your replies to the guile user list, were you suggesting i replace the link right now or just for future reference?
2020-12-25T19:20:18Z jcowan: Either, as you like.  They have mostly been rebuilt from scratch, so they are searchable.
2020-12-25T19:20:41Z jcowan: h/t mangol, who should be here but isn't (yet)
2020-12-25T19:21:07Z bandali: sorry i'm a bit confused by your use of 'they'; what do they refer to?
2020-12-25T19:22:12Z bandali: oh, by they you mean files.scheme.org?
2020-12-25T19:32:58Z jcowan: yes, but the various Scheme standards in particular
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2020-12-25T19:39:04Z bandali: oh, nice
2020-12-25T19:39:40Z bandali: let's see if anyone else chimes in in that thread, and go from there
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2020-12-25T19:40:25Z mdhughes: The Chibi generics would require a *lot* of boilerplate or macroing to build a class system over. Every single field & method gets an extra register line.
2020-12-25T19:41:26Z mdhughes: Every extra line is an extra chance for error, or just "oh, I'll do that later".
2020-12-25T19:47:23Z Riastradh: class systems are to be overthrown and replaced by dictatorship of the proceduriat
2020-12-25T19:59:04Z jcowan: mdhughes: I don't understand what you mean by "register line"
2020-12-25T19:59:46Z mdhughes: define-method in Chibi.
2020-12-25T20:00:07Z mdhughes: and generic-add!
2020-12-25T20:00:53Z Riastradh: ...better to be type-classed than to be a method actor...
2020-12-25T20:02:17Z mdhughes: So (define-record point (fields (mutable x) (mutable y))) needs (define-generic point-gen) (generic-add! point-gen point? point-x) etc 4 times for just the fields
2020-12-25T20:03:30Z mdhughes: Then (define-method (point-gen->string (pt point?) ...))
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2020-12-25T20:04:35Z mdhughes: Then when I (define-record point-color (parent point) (fields (mutable c)))  it'd need another generic-add! for the ->string subclass.
2020-12-25T20:04:55Z mdhughes: *that* is what a real class system avoids having to do.
2020-12-25T20:05:29Z mdhughes: And that's a stupid 2-field structure. Real classes tend to be rather larger.
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2020-12-25T20:07:17Z mdhughes: I'll have a stab at writing the stupid send function in a few days (likely Monday), R6 at least provides all the information.
2020-12-25T20:08:06Z mdhughes: There is a spectre haunting #scheme, it is the spectre of OOP.
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2020-12-25T20:22:51Z mdhughes: Also, in Chibi's model, every param test is going to be executed in order? So when you have 100 types registered for ->string, it'll test an average of 50 times before picking a function call? Bad idea.
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2020-12-25T20:49:01Z jcowan: If you are using define-generic and define-method, the overhead is the same as in CL.
2020-12-25T20:51:13Z jcowan: As for the implementation overhead, implementations can solve that problem for record-type predicates with clever cooperation.  The CL classes whose metaclass is not standard-class have to do something very like the tests you are describing.
2020-12-25T20:51:42Z jcowan: With predicate subsumption, you can capture the relations between predicates in the same way that define-class captures the relations between classes.
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2020-12-25T22:02:42Z mdhughes: So now writing a bunch of custom code in a custom Scheme impl? I like things that actually work, with as little non-production-code-producing effort as possible.
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2020-12-26T00:00:48Z jcowan: That was true of CLOS when first invented too.
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2020-12-26T00:10:38Z ezekielwordswort: Merry Christmas Fellow Schemers.
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2020-12-26T01:52:45Z Riastradh: merry chinese takeout day
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2020-12-26T05:06:16Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Indeed.
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2020-12-26T13:28:22Z mdhughes: Hooray power is back, connected again.
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2020-12-27T16:03:01Z amirouche: anything interesting happened around 1980 to mention as part of software history map ?
2020-12-27T16:15:40Z amirouche: I got got macintosh (1984), windows (1985)
2020-12-27T16:22:39Z mdhughes: There's so much more in the '70s-80s period than those two I wouldn't know where to start.
2020-12-27T16:23:23Z mdhughes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_computing
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2020-12-27T17:19:18Z amirouche: https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/2021/#submissions
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2020-12-27T18:07:36Z Zipheir: amirouche: Read some 1980 computer magazines and find out! https://archive.org/details/Kilobaud198006/mode/2up
2020-12-27T18:08:15Z Zipheir: It seems that the microcomputer world was still obsessed with the "1977 trinity": the Commodore PET, the Apple II, and the TRS-80.
2020-12-27T18:08:41Z Zipheir: And people are talking about possibly just maybe programming in something other than BASIC or asm.
2020-12-27T18:15:43Z mdhughes: Though note those are very consumer-oriented, little more than game consoles. I love the 8-bits, and do retrocomputing, but the place where The Future was invented was Xerox (who couldn't market their own products at all), Apple's Lisa/Macintosh, and SUN Microsystems.
2020-12-27T18:17:21Z mdhughes: The funny thing with Microsoft is their first product, Altair BASIC, was a commercialized ripoff of the trend to putting a TinyBasic on hobby computers, but it was at least at the cutting edge. Which they never were again.
2020-12-27T18:23:19Z mdhughes: And the LISP Machines, LMI ran from '79 to '83, Symbolics from 1980 to… '92?
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2020-12-27T18:29:26Z Zipheir: I'm sure there was a huge amount going on in the Lisp world in 1980.
2020-12-27T18:31:35Z jcowan: I would say that MS-DOS was also at the cutting edge for 8/16 bit micros, though of course they ripped that off too.
2020-12-27T18:33:10Z mdhughes: MS-DOS is just CP/M with directories. Which, hey, directories are cool… if you don't just have a tiny floppy drive.
2020-12-27T18:35:29Z jcowan: The directories came in with DOS 2.0
2020-12-27T18:35:38Z mdhughes: Altair BASIC really did have some advantages over Li-Chen Wang's TinyBasic, but it cost $XXX and Bill would write angry letters if you copied it.
2020-12-27T18:36:44Z jcowan: Having used all of CP/M, CP/M for 16 bits, and MS-DOS around the same time frame, it was great that all my knowledge carried over from RT-11 on the PDP-11 except the assembler instructions themselves
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2020-12-27T18:44:49Z mdhughes: I was a TRS-80 kid, so it was nice having TRS-DOS->LDOS->CP/M->MS-DOS as an upgrade path, and Z80 code was easy to turn into 8086… But I couldn't stand the PCs, so I went Atari ST to run a UNIX (MiNT) workstation.
2020-12-27T18:58:24Z Zipheir: jcowan: Re: SRFI 208, how do you want to handle the "float" argument of make-nan in the sample implementation?  Right now we simply have two sets of C procedures, and I'm wondering if it's sufficient to leave dispatching up to the implementers.
2020-12-27T18:59:12Z jcowan: I think there is no alternative.  Only the implementer knows whether both precisions are supported.
2020-12-27T19:01:19Z Zipheir: Yeah, agreed.
2020-12-27T19:02:09Z Zipheir: What about these hypothetical systems that MN-W mentions in which the payload of a NaN can be accessed but not the quiet or sign bits?
2020-12-27T19:02:28Z Zipheir: (Or *are they* hypothetical?)
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2020-12-27T22:14:37Z jcowan: AFAICT they are.  Since the SRFI is not portable anyhow, I don't care if it doesn't work on non-IEEE hardware.
2020-12-27T22:14:44Z jcowan: (or emulations of it)
2020-12-27T22:26:18Z Zipheir: OK, then the one other thing is whether some nan-payload-size value should be provided for inspection purposes.
2020-12-27T22:26:48Z Zipheir: (Or something like that.  Perhaps it's a thunk; whatever.)
2020-12-27T22:28:17Z jcowan: I don't understand that
2020-12-27T22:30:16Z Zipheir: To provide some way of rejecting out-of-bounds payloads, presumably.
2020-12-27T22:30:35Z Zipheir: Otherwise you'd just have to call make-nan and see if it returns.
2020-12-27T22:33:26Z Zipheir: But that's fine, as far as I'm concerned.  I don't see much of a reason to expose such a constant.
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2020-12-28T08:38:57Z codingquark: In a circular list, can I say "Give me 50th element" such that it will "modulo" to the element on its own? The precise usecase is, I want to infinitely repeat a sequence of characters and be able to address them by index
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2020-12-28T10:30:31Z wasamasa: have you tried just using list-ref on that circular list
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2020-12-28T10:46:37Z codingquark: Yes, it gives the list to be the ref on 50th pos
2020-12-28T10:47:15Z codingquark: (list-ref (circular-list (list 'a 'b 'c)) 500) => (a b c)
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2020-12-28T10:50:28Z wasamasa: take a look at the function signature of circular-list
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2020-12-28T11:03:42Z codingquark: Takes objects, okay
2020-12-28T11:04:30Z codingquark: s/objects/object
2020-12-28T11:14:14Z wasamasa: yes, you don't give it a list, you give it several items of the list
2020-12-28T11:14:22Z wasamasa: it's a varargs thing
2020-12-28T11:14:32Z wasamasa: either unwrap that list or use apply
2020-12-28T11:15:40Z codingquark: Thanks!
2020-12-28T11:17:49Z codingquark: This is awesome
2020-12-28T11:19:41Z wasamasa: it's one of these hardly used features
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2020-12-28T12:59:57Z siraben: codingquark: are you doing AoC?
2020-12-28T13:00:09Z siraben: you should use modular arithmetic for that day
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2020-12-28T13:27:17Z mdhughes: codingquark: Note you can write a list of constants as a quoted list without quoting each one: '(a b c)
2020-12-28T13:36:02Z shawnw: Yay for more people doing AoC in scheme.
2020-12-28T13:39:18Z shawnw: Speaking of which I have a few days left from this year I need to finish up.
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2020-12-29T00:40:31Z dto: hello.
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2020-12-29T01:22:31Z Zipheir: o/
2020-12-29T01:23:48Z dto: how do you do Zipheir ?
2020-12-29T01:23:52Z dto: happy holidays.
2020-12-29T01:25:34Z Zipheir: Happy holidays!
2020-12-29T01:27:05Z dto: :)
2020-12-29T01:27:25Z dto: so. lately i have been programming in a rather unconventional dialect of scheme called S7.
2020-12-29T01:27:34Z dto: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/s7.html
2020-12-29T01:27:36Z dto: it's. FUN
2020-12-29T01:27:42Z dto: have you heard of s7 at all?
2020-12-29T01:28:17Z Zipheir: I think so.  Isn't that what CLM runs with these days?
2020-12-29T01:28:41Z Zipheir: Ah, Snd.  That's what I was thinking of.
2020-12-29T01:33:18Z dto: yep!
2020-12-29T01:33:33Z dto: i have written a concatenative synthesis system on top of Snd. it's for music. want to see?
2020-12-29T01:33:56Z dto: i'm looking for beta testers, particularly people who know scheme and/or emacs, as the front-end to the project is emacs
2020-12-29T01:34:20Z dto: http://xelf.me/scheme-mosaic.html
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2020-12-29T01:36:52Z dto: the concatenative synthesis system is about 3,300 lines of S7 Scheme, whereas the nifty UI is like 5,500 lines of elisp :)
2020-12-29T01:37:09Z dto: Zipheir: have you used CLM?
2020-12-29T01:37:27Z dto: is this a potential area of interest? if so i'd be happy to help you try it out on your system
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2020-12-29T01:47:36Z Zipheir: dto: Looks cool!  It's definitely an interesting area to me, but I don't have the time to dig into it at just this moment.
2020-12-29T01:48:18Z Zipheir: Pretty extensive library.
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2020-12-29T01:51:37Z dto: ok :) thanku
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2020-12-29T05:01:37Z codingquark: siraben: yes, AoC in Scheme. Started only a few days ago
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2020-12-29T07:36:48Z codingquark: https://gitlab.com/codingquark/adventofcode2020/-/blob/master/day3/part1.scm#L81 Any neat way to remove the single side-effect in there?
2020-12-29T07:37:05Z codingquark: Though it is internal...
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2020-12-29T09:47:29Z taw10: codingquark: Maybe prepare the list of positions in advance as a second list argument to fold-left?
2020-12-29T09:48:22Z codingquark: taw10: oh, do you mean a second argument to the proc of fold-left?
2020-12-29T09:48:34Z taw10: Yep, exactly
2020-12-29T09:49:05Z codingquark: Hmm, I /assumed/ it cannot be done, though not sure why I did that.
2020-12-29T09:49:14Z codingquark: That's an excellent idea! Thank you!
2020-12-29T09:49:58Z taw10: You could even reduce the whole fold thing to a succinct filter operation using is-tree?, then count the length of the filtered list
2020-12-29T09:50:21Z taw10: Though the scaling is a bit bad, because you have to search the entire list of tree positions every time.  There's probably a way to sort it for better complexity
2020-12-29T09:51:17Z codingquark: It would also be nice to exit the loop when current-position exceeds (length example-input)
2020-12-29T09:52:19Z codingquark: Though it won't matter _too much_ because it might end-up doing only as many more extra executions as (cdr (step X Y))
2020-12-29T09:52:38Z codingquark: (step X Y) is wrong, but you get the idea
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2020-12-29T09:59:17Z siraben: codingquark: traversing a circular list to solve the problem seems awfully slow, use modulo
2020-12-29T09:59:42Z siraben: i did use haskell's cycle for the initial solve, heh
2020-12-29T10:00:17Z codingquark: siraben: I agree. It is a ridiculous way of doing things. #emacs suggested this too. But I took this approach because it looked "cool" to me as a learning device ;)
2020-12-29T10:00:22Z codingquark: "for science"
2020-12-29T10:00:43Z siraben: Hm, how does one benchmark Scheme code? Haskell has criterion/hyperfine for instance.
2020-12-29T10:01:01Z codingquark: CLI time?
2020-12-29T10:01:07Z codingquark: No idea
2020-12-29T10:01:15Z siraben: codingquark: overoptimized day 3 for me haha https://github.com/siraben/haoc-2020/blob/master/day3.hs
2020-12-29T10:02:20Z codingquark: NO IDEA what I'm reading >.<
2020-12-29T10:02:37Z siraben: foldl should have a scheme equivalent
2020-12-29T10:02:55Z codingquark: foldl is not fold-left?
2020-12-29T10:03:01Z siraben: Yeah it is
2020-12-29T10:03:13Z siraben: So I'm folding over [B.ByteString]
2020-12-29T10:03:37Z siraben: I like to think of foldl' as letting me have a state during a traversal of a list from left to right
2020-12-29T10:03:47Z siraben: foldl/foldl' are the same, foldl' is just the strict version
2020-12-29T10:03:54Z codingquark: I see
2020-12-29T10:04:26Z siraben: definitely would use the let and tail-recursive loop in Scheme for this
2020-12-29T10:07:33Z mdhughes: siraben: Many Schemes have a (time BODY) macro that reports time and allocations.
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2020-12-29T10:42:42Z rgherdt: siraben: you get fold functions from srfi-1
2020-12-29T10:50:44Z siraben: mdhughes, rgherdt: I see
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2020-12-29T15:39:24Z jcowan: SRFI-1, which is part of R7RS-large and pretty universal, provides fold and foldr along with many other things.  With other SRFIs, you can fold over vectors, hashtables, etc.
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2020-12-29T19:00:23Z mdhughes: You know what I needed and isn't AFAICT in any SRFI? vector-delete. Just pull one element out by index, give me a new vector without it.
2020-12-29T19:00:52Z mdhughes: -delete! would be sweet, but fixed-sized vectors, sigh.
2020-12-29T19:01:21Z wasamasa: yeah, it's weird
2020-12-29T19:01:35Z wasamasa: fixed-size vectors make most sense for stuff like SRFI-4
2020-12-29T19:02:41Z mdhughes: Even there, I'd like to append/delete/insert elements when building a buffer, but no such luck.
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2020-12-29T19:03:41Z mdhughes: It's trivial to write, but still. https://paste.debian.net/1178772/
2020-12-29T19:06:28Z Zipheir: vector-delete! wouldn't work with most current vector implementations.
2020-12-29T19:06:51Z Zipheir: We have https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-214/
2020-12-29T19:07:04Z Riastradh: You can do it in MIT Scheme, and the GC will free up the unused slots at the end when it next runs.
2020-12-29T19:07:10Z mdhughes: It's an array of bytes internally, a memcpy down and change the reported length would be enough.
2020-12-29T19:08:32Z Zipheir: Well, we have other ways of mapping integers to an expandable/contractable set of elements.
2020-12-29T19:10:52Z mdhughes: We do? Lists have to be prepended, and are O(n) to reference items or even get length.
2020-12-29T19:11:16Z Riastradh: mmm balanced trees or radix trees
2020-12-29T19:11:23Z Zipheir: Exactly.
2020-12-29T19:12:03Z mdhughes: I guess? I don't have a good library for either, or the week or so it'd take to build & test properly.
2020-12-29T19:12:30Z mdhughes: And there's no tree SRFIs.
2020-12-29T19:12:57Z mdhughes: The other half-ass solution is using a hashtable as a sparse array.
2020-12-29T19:13:16Z mdhughes: It works for JavaScript!
2020-12-29T19:14:56Z jcowan: Lua has an interesting solution: a Lua table has two parts, a vector and a hashtable, but the interface is that of a hashtable.  However, the length of a table is the highest available numeric key, not the total elements.
2020-12-29T19:15:01Z Riastradh: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/stable/mit-scheme-ref/Weight_002dBalanced-Trees.html#Weight_002dBalanced-Trees, (wt-tree/delete tree (wt-tree/index tree i))
2020-12-29T19:15:02Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/reW3fGaAnA
2020-12-29T19:16:04Z Riastradh: (wttrees/bounded-balance trees support order statistic operations, which is handy; in principle it would not be hard to use the same data structure for a sequence of elements without any notion of ordered keys too)
2020-12-29T19:18:59Z mdhughes: Same as the hashtable "solution", though, it wouldn't renumber all the keys down, or up when I insert.
2020-12-29T19:19:34Z Riastradh: No, the data structure can do better than hash tables.
2020-12-29T19:20:21Z Riastradh: A bounded-balance tree supports lookup, insert, and delete at any position in the sequence of elements stored, irrespective of what those elements are or whether you've imposed any sort of ordering on them.
2020-12-29T19:21:00Z Riastradh: (MIT Scheme's wttree library always inserts key/value pairs with a per-tree total ordering on keys.  But the underlying bounded-balance binary tree data structure isn't restricted to do that.)
2020-12-29T19:23:04Z Riastradh: Here's another implementation of the data structure which separates the two parts of the algorithms: <https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/picopb/usr.bin/picopbc/wb.c>.  In particular, see wb_find_at, wb_insert_at, wb_delete_at.  (The ordered-map semantics is provided by wb_find_key_*, wb_insert_key_*, and wb_replace_key_*.)
2020-12-29T19:24:08Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Can you recommend any papers on these trees?
2020-12-29T19:25:29Z Riastradh: The original bounded-balance tree paper was J. Nievergelt and E.M. Reingold, `Binary search trees of bounded balance', Proceedings of the fourth ACM Symposium on Theory of Computing, pp. 137--142, 1972.  (Sorry, don't have a link handy.)
2020-12-29T19:25:36Z mdhughes: Which is nice, but still doesn't fix the keys when I insert or delete, which is what I need: A buffer of things which are mostly referred to by index, and those indices must change.
2020-12-29T19:26:43Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Thanks very much.
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2020-12-29T19:27:06Z Riastradh: The original MIT Scheme implementation was documented in Stephen Adams, Implemeting Sets Efficiently in a Functional Language, CSTR 92-10, Department of Electronics and Computer Science, University of Southampton, 1992, <http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/adams/BB/>.  This paper is full of bugs, but it popularized the algorithm in the functional programming world in the mid-'90s.
2020-12-29T19:27:47Z mdhughes: Suddenly having gaps as I delete stuff, or keeping a monotonic key to add to it, and then having to pull a list of all keys to reference anything, isn't great for real-time uses.
2020-12-29T19:28:09Z Riastradh: mdhughes: You don't need keys in a bounded-balance tree.  You can use the data structure to implement a sequence that supports lookup, insert, delete at any position -- there's no keys or gaps involved.
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2020-12-29T19:29:36Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Bounded-balance trees were deployed in the Haskell world for Data.Set and Data.Map, using the same buggy algorithm Stephen Adams documented, and nobody noticed until I was playing around with MIT Scheme wttrees one day about a decade ago and noticed that I managed to make an unbalanced one.  `oops'
2020-12-29T19:30:25Z Zipheir: Interesting, yes, I remember this story.
2020-12-29T19:30:32Z Riastradh: I reported a bug that led to the publication of several papers trying to repair the algorithm, including Yoichi Hirai and Kazuhiko Yamamoto, `Balancing weight-balanced trees', Journal of Functional Programming 21(3), pp. 287--307,
2020-12-29T19:30:40Z Riastradh: 2011, <https://yoichihirai.com/bst.pdf>.
2020-12-29T19:31:42Z Riastradh: ...which went to some lengths to fix the parameters and prove their correctness, but also cited a paper that had a much simpler tweak to the algorithm, now adopted by MIT Scheme (and https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/picopb/usr.bin/picopbc/wb.c):
2020-12-29T19:31:57Z Riastradh: Salvador Roura, `A new method for balancing binary search trees', Automata, Languages, and Programming, Orejas, F., Spirakis, P., & van Leeuwen, J. (eds), Lecture Notes in Computer Science 2076, pp. 469--480, Springer, 2001.
2020-12-29T19:32:05Z Riastradh: (sorry, don't have a link for that one either)
2020-12-29T19:36:42Z Zipheir: Thanks for all the refs, though.
2020-12-29T19:37:12Z Zipheir: I decided a while ago that hash-tables are black magic and have been delving into tree research since then.
2020-12-29T19:38:21Z Riastradh: Hash tables are good, for certain limited purposes.  I especially like universal hashes.  Hash tables as an all-purpose data structure for adaptively adversary-controlled inputs, not a big fan.
2020-12-29T19:38:47Z wasamasa: did someone actually exploit that
2020-12-29T19:39:26Z Riastradh: Standard class of denial of service attacks, `hash flooding'.
2020-12-29T19:39:44Z wasamasa: > Hash-flooding attack is one of the most important attacks in cyber security
2020-12-29T19:40:14Z wasamasa: but then, I didn't look too deeply into that bug class as few customers want to pay me for DoS tests
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2020-12-29T19:42:41Z mdhughes: hashtables are also super trivial to implement, and have some best/worst case performance bounds. Just needs a hash function.
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2020-12-29T19:43:28Z Riastradh: `just need a uniform random function from the universe of all bounded-length strings into hash values'
2020-12-29T19:43:29Z mdhughes: But there's a lot of applications where I need O(1) lookup time, not O(log n) or worse.
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2020-12-29T19:44:29Z mdhughes: Java's string hash function was really poorly chosen, especially for Java string keys which tended to be reverse-DNS format, so that's the hazard of it.
2020-12-29T19:45:44Z mdhughes: But I made my own hashtables starting in CS1xx classes, which is fine if your keys are all ints or 8-char strings (which are just 64-bit ints).
2020-12-29T19:45:58Z Riastradh: O(log n) is effectively O(1), and not just in the `technically correct' sense of `is', on all computers you care about -- you are guaranteed never take more than 64 steps in a bounded-balance binary tree.
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2020-12-29T19:46:44Z Riastradh: But in a hash table with an ad hoc `hash function' (as opposed, say, to a universal hash, or a PRF if you need an adaptive adversary), there's a good chance you will do much worse than that.
2020-12-29T19:46:51Z mdhughes: 64 steps is 64x slower than 1 step.
2020-12-29T19:47:04Z mdhughes: That's the difference between animation and slideshow.
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2020-12-29T19:48:31Z mdhughes: A linear hashtable with 50% padding will almost never hit the pathological case. I don't like branched hashtables, but they're more consistent and need less padding.
2020-12-29T19:49:22Z mdhughes: But again I can't easily do delete/insert in that, without O(n) updates of every element above the index. UGH.
2020-12-29T19:49:41Z Riastradh: ...but you can with a bounded-balance tree!
2020-12-29T19:49:43Z mdhughes: Might be worth considering a tree for editing, then generate a list for display/reference work.
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2020-12-29T19:50:45Z mdhughes: I don't like to make a duplicate structure, but I currently am on every edit.
2020-12-29T19:52:25Z Riastradh: If you're doing a lot of insertions or deletions at the same place, you may want to use a gap buffer.
2020-12-29T19:53:57Z jcowan: An interesting thing about gap vectors are that they are the dual of flexvectors.
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2020-12-29T19:59:13Z mdhughes: Currently it's just a few edits per update, but that'll change, which is why I'm rethinking it now.
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2020-12-29T20:27:54Z mangol: hi. we've been working somewhat steadily on scheme.org for the past few weeks. i'd like to assess the level of confidence that schemers have in the project
2020-12-29T20:28:22Z mangol: on a scale from diabolical to angelic, where would you place it?
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2020-12-29T20:32:53Z wasamasa: that's kind of hard to answer with close to nothing on that site
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2020-12-29T20:35:12Z mangol: not much content is ready to publish yet. there's a vestigial site at https://www.staging.scheme.org (changes quite often)
2020-12-29T20:36:12Z mangol: mainly referring to the governance and planning on the mailing list at https://srfi-email.schemers.org/schemeorg/
2020-12-29T20:37:42Z mangol: (also, looking for a graphic designer!)
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2020-12-30T02:53:21Z dieggsy: mangol: curious: what's going to be in the 'try it in your browser' page? a biwa repl or something?
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2020-12-30T09:04:04Z amirouche: dieggsy: chibi is better...
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2020-12-30T11:51:18Z wasamasa: chibi takes ages to load
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2020-12-30T12:54:27Z dieggsy: chibi has javascript?
2020-12-30T12:54:41Z dieggsy: lol, that's a dumbly phrased question, I just woke up
2020-12-30T12:55:00Z dieggsy: is it possible to run chibi in browser like bows?
2020-12-30T12:55:03Z dieggsy: biwa*
2020-12-30T12:56:50Z amirouche: yes
2020-12-30T12:57:11Z dieggsy: amirouche: any links for that?
2020-12-30T12:57:37Z dieggsy: I'd love to have a scheme repl on my website for fun, so I'd like to explore my options
2020-12-30T12:57:50Z amirouche: https://scheme-lang.com/cons/
2020-12-30T13:00:07Z dieggsy: interesting. huh, well I answered some questions and it errored. and, it does take forever to load
2020-12-30T13:01:28Z dieggsy: in any case, how is this achieved?
2020-12-30T13:03:15Z amirouche: the error is expected
2020-12-30T13:03:27Z amirouche: because there is no more questions
2020-12-30T13:04:12Z amirouche: here is the code https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-lang.com
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2020-12-30T13:09:16Z dieggsy: interesting
2020-12-30T13:10:01Z dieggsy: amirouche: how's it actually compiled or turned into a browser friendly format though?
2020-12-30T13:14:21Z amirouche: In chibi repo, use: make js
2020-12-30T13:15:12Z dieggsy: pretty cool
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2020-12-30T13:28:24Z mdhughes: There's a couple sites that take Gauche and others, but I think they're running back-end?
2020-12-30T13:28:58Z mdhughes: And you can compile CHICKEN with Spock to get working JS, but IIRC it's only C4.
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2020-12-30T13:40:54Z mdhughes: Oh, yes, also Gerbil has a JS compile, but it's documented as well as the rest of Gerbil so good luck using it.
2020-12-30T13:46:06Z dieggsy: mdhughes: I guess spock's been ported to C5... that doesn't necessarily mean an in browser chicken repl is possible, right? since you'd need a js interpreter too
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2020-12-30T15:09:16Z wasamasa: dieggsy: there is a difference between whether you compile lots of C to even more JS and load that up or use a scheme written directly in JS
2020-12-30T15:09:32Z wasamasa: dieggsy: in theory both are exchangeable, in practice they aren't
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2020-12-30T15:10:02Z wasamasa: dieggsy: SPOCK is a compiler, so you'd need to write an interpreter in scheme and compile that :P
2020-12-30T15:10:31Z dieggsy: wasamasa: right. yikes. although, might be a fun exercise for the day i actually get through SICP.
2020-12-30T15:10:38Z wasamasa: I mean, eval isn't a bad start
2020-12-30T15:10:45Z wasamasa: but it's far from a full solution
2020-12-30T15:10:56Z dieggsy: wasamasa: do you know of any working repl options besides biwa ?
2020-12-30T15:11:09Z wasamasa: nope
2020-12-30T15:11:13Z dieggsy: in my ideal world there's just a nice fully r7rs compliant in-browser repl on my website. ha....
2020-12-30T15:11:33Z wasamasa: I've considered doing my own project competing with biwa, but I don't hate myself nearly enough for that
2020-12-30T15:11:54Z dieggsy: jaja, seems reasonable
2020-12-30T15:12:08Z wasamasa: I don't have nearly enough of a grip on JS
2020-12-30T15:12:25Z Riastradh: try putting chalk on your hands, helps make them grippier when sweaty
2020-12-30T15:12:27Z wasamasa: I've read the good parts, did some for work and occasionally do some for whatever I need it for
2020-12-30T15:12:40Z wasamasa: but I still stumble over the most basic things
2020-12-30T15:12:46Z wasamasa: like subtleties in XSS
2020-12-30T15:13:40Z wasamasa: I've tried making JS interop more convenient in SPOCK, but gave up because I didn't really understand the difference between properties, methods and the role of this
2020-12-30T15:13:52Z wasamasa: for some reason SPOCK places great importance on this
2020-12-30T15:13:54Z dieggsy: i've only written a total of maybe 80 loc in javascript, so...
2020-12-30T15:14:10Z wasamasa: which might be as it targets more than the good parts subset
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2020-12-30T15:16:42Z wasamasa: anyway, I don't see anything anywhere close to large being practical in CHICKEN as it's slow to compile
2020-12-30T15:17:28Z Riastradh: `the good parts' book is pretty out of date, from what I recall.
2020-12-30T15:17:57Z wasamasa: I went through an ES6 resource later and for practice worked with a coffeescript->es6 compiler
2020-12-30T15:17:59Z wasamasa: that helped a bunch
2020-12-30T15:19:37Z dieggsy: wasamasa: large? r7rs-large?
2020-12-30T15:19:52Z wasamasa: I mean, anything larger than a handful of 1000 SLOC files
2020-12-30T15:20:17Z wasamasa: it's crazy how much the code generated by the compiler resists being compiled quickly by gcc and friends
2020-12-30T15:20:26Z dieggsy: wasamasa: i'm not sure i follow. if r7rs-large were implemented in chicken, wouldn't it be modular?
2020-12-30T15:20:50Z Riastradh: wasamasa: ...to be fair, from gcc's perspective what Chicken does is pretty weird.
2020-12-30T15:20:51Z wasamasa: with C having this reputation of being fast to compile
2020-12-30T15:21:07Z wasamasa: sure, but I've never heard other scheme->C compilers being decried for being slow
2020-12-30T15:21:30Z Riastradh: What they do isn't as weird.
2020-12-30T15:21:52Z Riastradh: (from the perspective of a C compiler)
2020-12-30T15:22:17Z wasamasa: is it more about the GC strategy than the CPS soup?
2020-12-30T15:22:42Z Riastradh: same difference
2020-12-30T15:25:31Z Riastradh: C compiler generally expects you not to accumulate large amounts of stack space, and periodically check it for overflow and trace through it if so.
2020-12-30T15:49:23Z mangol: mdhughes: do you have a link to the Gauche web REPL?
2020-12-30T15:49:35Z mangol: dieggsy: feeley and jcubic are working at https://github.com/schemeorg/try.scheme.org
2020-12-30T15:50:22Z mangol: they probably accept feedback/collaborators at the GitHub issues of that repo if there it interest
2020-12-30T15:51:16Z mangol: the plan is to start with a Gambit web REPL, maybe add Lips which is jcubic's project, maybe a code editor
2020-12-30T15:51:19Z dieggsy: mangol: is this server side?
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2020-12-30T15:51:53Z mangol: the Gambit and Lips REPLs run entirely in the browser
2020-12-30T15:52:15Z mangol: large static .js files are downloaded from the server, nothing dynamic server-side
2020-12-30T15:52:52Z mangol: the .js are several megabytes. the fact that HTTP supports transparent gzip compression ought to help a lot
2020-12-30T15:53:29Z mangol: perhaps compiling to wasm would reduce the size further
2020-12-30T15:53:36Z dieggsy: oof
2020-12-30T15:53:57Z mangol: Gambit should get a tree shaker in the next year, which helps a lot with file sizes, though not if you load a full-featured REPL
2020-12-30T15:55:11Z mangol: feeley suggested a lot of C Schemes may be amenable to Emscripten compilation with few modifications
2020-12-30T15:55:52Z mangol: that may be an easier way to put up a lot of web REPLs than launching Docker containers server-side and wiring stdio up to the user's browser
2020-12-30T15:56:38Z mangol: speaking of Docker, I put up a lame homepage for our humble project: https://containers.scheme.org
2020-12-30T15:57:49Z mangol: improvements and suggestions are very welcome for all this scheme.org stuff. we have good people working but we can use many more
2020-12-30T15:58:08Z mangol: found a graphic designer yesterday btw
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2020-12-30T16:51:10Z iv-so: where can I post t'a screenshot?
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2020-12-30T16:56:16Z TheSchemer: Yo.
2020-12-30T16:56:33Z TheSchemer: (yes i possibly have the most unoriginal name ever)
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2020-12-30T16:58:35Z dieggsy: mangol: is the overlapping title a design choice?
2020-12-30T16:59:09Z dieggsy: it's sorta hard to read
2020-12-30T17:01:36Z mangol: TheSchemer: at least your nick is not lambda or eval so you don't get irc highlights all the time :)
2020-12-30T17:03:03Z mangol: dieggsy: not a design choice. one of us did something with the CSS so long headings jangle. i don't know why
2020-12-30T17:04:14Z mangol: if you can find out the problematic CSS, i can fix it
2020-12-30T17:10:58Z dieggsy: mangol: it's to do with the max-width of the html, the title is set to a large font, but something like 'scheme containers' doesn't fit in the max-width
2020-12-30T17:11:29Z dieggsy: i'm wondering why max-width is set at all
2020-12-30T17:12:15Z dieggsy: .....well, that shouldn't matter, actually
2020-12-30T17:12:22Z dieggsy: it should wrap neatly, not with this weird overlap. huh
2020-12-30T17:14:30Z mangol: btw, there is now #scheme-live as a kind of "war room" channel for scheme.org and general scheme integration work
2020-12-30T17:15:03Z mangol: started in the hopes of reducing noise on this general-purpose channel. apologies to amirouche for stealing the name :)
2020-12-30T17:15:46Z mangol: fast-paced collaboration tend to be more fun, so hopefully this will help us get through the boring parts more easily
2020-12-30T17:16:56Z iv-so: at least it looks funny
2020-12-30T17:20:26Z mangol: the CSS line-height value is too low. that's why the heading is jumbled
2020-12-30T17:24:22Z mangol: ok, I'm not actually sure whether the line-height is too high or too low or what's up. but it's inherited from <html> and that messes it up.
2020-12-30T17:24:58Z mangol: I added "line-height: 1em;" to the h1 itself, and now it works normally. weird. anyway, not it should be fixed; it not, please try a full reload
2020-12-30T17:27:19Z mangol: ...but now there's a huge blank space below the h1 :D
2020-12-30T17:31:44Z mangol: anyway, to avoid flooding the channel, let's continue tweaking the site in #scheme-live, priv msg or the schemeorg mailing list
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2020-12-30T17:50:51Z Zipheir: I hope http[s]://scheme.org will follow the SRFIs site in being very JS-lite.
2020-12-30T17:52:40Z jcowan: It's mostly not for us, so a little whiz-bang in the interests of attracting n00bs is, I think, justified.
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2020-12-30T17:53:04Z Zipheir: ... grumble.
2020-12-30T17:53:06Z jcowan: see http://stodi.lojban.org/~cowan (my home page) for the exact opposite
2020-12-30T17:53:23Z mangol: Zipheir: the overall sentiment so far is to be JS-lite
2020-12-30T17:53:46Z Zipheir: Ah, nice.
2020-12-30T17:53:49Z mangol: our graphic designer is looking to make something based on Bootstrap (the web framework)
2020-12-30T17:54:07Z mangol: which does almost everything via CSS, with very little JS, at least the last time I used it
2020-12-30T17:54:47Z mangol: Arthur (from SRFI) has been thinking about some light JS functionality now and then. probably on a similar level to srfi.schemers.org
2020-12-30T17:55:16Z mangol: personally, I share your sentiment that the less JS the better
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2020-12-30T17:56:39Z mangol: I personally feel strongly that the front page, www.scheme.org, should be very conservative
2020-12-30T17:57:55Z mangol: the Scheme community has many differences of opinion, so if the front page is eventually stable as a rock (politically and technically)
2020-12-30T17:57:57Z Zipheir: ACK.  I do think the SRFIs site is a good model, since it works without JS and does something actually useful (i.e. allowing SRFI insta-filtering) with what the script it does use.
2020-12-30T17:58:12Z Zipheir: s/what //
2020-12-30T17:58:39Z mangol: and the community is confident that it can weather storms like R6RS-R7RS and other technical splits, a wider base of people will feel more confident that they can be invested in scheme.org
2020-12-30T17:58:50Z Zipheir: Haha, good luck keeping the tribes happy.
2020-12-30T17:59:26Z mangol: they don't always need to be happy, but they need to be able to trust that their opponents pull a fast one on them.
2020-12-30T17:59:42Z mangol: won't pull, lol
2020-12-30T17:59:48Z Zipheir: Of course.
2020-12-30T18:00:20Z mangol: i think that kind of trust can only be accomplished via technical and political minimalism
2020-12-30T18:00:30Z Zipheir: Well, I'm glad that it's being developed publicly.
2020-12-30T18:01:01Z mangol: glad to hear that. i also feel that full transparency is essential to building trust
2020-12-30T18:02:41Z mangol: the SRFI site as well as Schemers.org are good examples of functionality over flash, and well received.
2020-12-30T18:03:52Z mangol: but to attract people who are used to today's websites, it should probably be a little more flashy. the bootstrap framework seems like a decent compromise
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2020-12-30T18:06:24Z Zipheir: Hmm, I recall a time when amz3/amirouche/... was working on a similar idea at www.scheme-lang.com, but that site seems to have been nuked.
2020-12-30T18:07:25Z mangol: he was, but unless I'm mistaken, it was more of a promotional site. similar to https://lisp-lang.org for Common Lisp
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2020-12-30T18:07:39Z tatsumaru: hey guys, how's life :)
2020-12-30T18:09:06Z Zipheir: o/
2020-12-30T18:12:00Z mangol: Zipheir: it would be interesting to think of how to incorporate promotional materials to scheme.org. we have to prize neutrality highly, but at the same time
2020-12-30T18:12:30Z mangol: any site has to be based on the belief that some things are positive and should be promoted. otherwise people wouldn't have used energy to make the site
2020-12-30T18:13:25Z mangol: maybe we should have some kind of advocacy or opinion section. some people have written such essays on Scheme, and on Lisp more generally. schemers.org has links.
2020-12-30T18:13:55Z Zipheir: I'm sure it's been discussed ad infinitum on the ml, but what about a "Scheme News" thing with links to recent papers, etc. using Scheme?
2020-12-30T18:14:28Z mangol: https://blog.scheme.org was just made, but there's no content yet
2020-12-30T18:14:35Z Zipheir: Ah, cool.
2020-12-30T18:14:40Z mangol: Arthur wrote a Scheme blog aggregator
2020-12-30T18:15:08Z Zipheir: I think I remember reading something about that.
2020-12-30T18:15:44Z mangol: https://www.staging.scheme.org currently has a News heading with the output of the aggregator. the details can all be tweaked
2020-12-30T18:15:52Z Zipheir: Perfect.
2020-12-30T18:16:16Z tatsumaru: is the blog cms based on cms?
2020-12-30T18:16:19Z tatsumaru: on scheme*
2020-12-30T18:16:54Z mangol: blogs are nice but have the downside of recency bias. we should probably display some old essays prominently as well
2020-12-30T18:17:42Z mangol: not a cms, simply a feed scraper. the code is here: https://github.com/schemeorg/schemeorg/blob/master/www.scm
2020-12-30T18:18:12Z rgherdt: Hi! Question: how can I write a syntax-rules macro to flatten a list of lists of arbitrary length? For example:
2020-12-30T18:18:14Z rgherdt: ((a b c ...) (a1 b1 c1 ...) ...)  --> (a b c ... a1 b1 c1 ...)
2020-12-30T18:18:52Z Zipheir: What have you got so far?
2020-12-30T18:19:28Z rgherdt: I managed to do this for say two lists, for example:
2020-12-30T18:19:49Z rgherdt: (define-syntax flatten-two-lists  (syntax-rules () ((flatten-two-lists (f0 ...) (f1 ...)) (f0 ... f1 ...))))
2020-12-30T18:20:15Z Zipheir: Looks good.
2020-12-30T18:20:20Z rgherdt: And I'm trying two do a recursion for an arbitrary number of lists, but I don't understand exactly how recursive expansion of macros works
2020-12-30T18:20:27Z rgherdt: *to do
2020-12-30T18:21:37Z rgherdt: Like a flatten-lists macro that consumes lists pairwise with flatten-two-lists
2020-12-30T18:26:38Z Zipheir: It's a little tricky.  But I don't think you want to recurse pair-wise.
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2020-12-30T18:33:51Z Zipheir: Actually, no.  I think using a two-list auxilliary was the right idea.
2020-12-30T18:33:58Z Zipheir: Nice little puzzle, actually.
2020-12-30T18:34:26Z rgherdt: I figured it out: https://paste.debian.net/1179053/
2020-12-30T18:34:53Z rgherdt: In the end I tried it without an extra one like you said, it helped :)
2020-12-30T18:35:40Z Zipheir: Very nice.
2020-12-30T18:36:29Z Zipheir: I think you can simplify the first case to ((_ l) l), unless you want to avoid "type" errors like (flatten-lists 2).
2020-12-30T18:37:45Z rgherdt: good idea, thanks
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2020-12-30T18:40:09Z Zipheir: I was attempting to write a macro version of `concatenate', which is a tougher exercise (or I'm just being dense).
2020-12-30T18:45:09Z rgherdt: like this?         (define-syntax concatenate-macro (syntax-rules () ((concatenate-macro (l0 ...)) (flatten-lists l0 ...))))
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2020-12-30T18:45:55Z Zipheir: Well, yes, that works. :)
2020-12-30T18:46:13Z Zipheir: The auxilliary makes it easy.
2020-12-30T18:46:18Z rgherdt: I'll start to use more underscores in my macros
2020-12-30T18:47:08Z Zipheir: The underscore as the head of the pattern is just a shorthand.  Some Schemers really don't like it.
2020-12-30T18:47:51Z jcowan dislikes it
2020-12-30T18:48:19Z rgherdt: just changed it and realized it's not so nice indeed, looks like line-noise
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2020-12-30T19:52:15Z amirouche: I really do not know how you came up with current scheme.org css
2020-12-30T19:52:44Z amirouche: It looks like original scheme or something..
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2020-12-30T19:56:43Z amirouche: mangol: btw many people complain about gambit website being down on reddit
2020-12-30T19:57:06Z amirouche: https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/kmni7z/gambitschemeorg_inaccessibe/
2020-12-30T19:57:14Z mangol: amirouche: daviwil plans to make a new graphic design based on bootstrap. in the meantime, if the current one is unbearable, patches welcome. i'm also getting tired of all the beige.
2020-12-30T19:57:49Z mangol: the gambit site is probably down due to marc switching servers
2020-12-30T19:58:36Z amirouche: I bring up the gambit thing, because I like the redesign of the homepage :)
2020-12-30T19:58:45Z mangol: the gambit redesign?
2020-12-30T19:58:48Z amirouche: using bootstrap
2020-12-30T19:58:50Z amirouche: yes
2020-12-30T19:59:04Z mangol: the same guy who made that one is making the upcoming scheme.org one
2020-12-30T19:59:22Z mangol: i also like it a lot
2020-12-30T19:59:28Z amirouche: https://daviwil.com/gambit-site-demo/
2020-12-30T19:59:32Z mangol: yes
2020-12-30T20:00:18Z mangol: while we're on the subject of gambit, its site is based on MediaWiki. what's the general sentiment on wikis now?
2020-12-30T20:01:03Z mangol: i've been trying to talk him into having a conventional website and improving the texinfo manual. all but the most popular wikis tend to languish nowadays
2020-12-30T20:01:09Z mangol: and get spam and such
2020-12-30T20:01:33Z amirouche: yes
2020-12-30T20:01:42Z amirouche: I do not use much wikis outside wikipedia
2020-12-30T20:02:00Z amirouche: the few edits I do are on wikipedia
2020-12-30T20:02:07Z mangol: agreed. i feel like wikis were cool when they were the only thing we had for large scale collaboration on the web
2020-12-30T20:02:34Z mangol: esp. for programmers, using git and auto-generating websites based on git tends to lead to a better result nowadays
2020-12-30T20:03:34Z Zipheir: Wouldn't that just be a git-generated wiki?
2020-12-30T20:03:47Z mangol: pull requests made the git-based workflow so easy that there are now few benefits to a classical wiki
2020-12-30T20:04:06Z mangol: in a sense it would. the editor would just be elsewhere
2020-12-30T20:04:16Z Riastradh: git-generated wiki?  Like this?  https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/
2020-12-30T20:04:50Z mangol: git + any static site generator = basically a wiki -- if you give people access to submit PRs to the git repo
2020-12-30T20:07:03Z Zipheir: Someone's got to handle all of the pull requests, though.
2020-12-30T20:07:19Z Zipheir: That's a lot of centralized work compared to traditional wikis.
2020-12-30T20:07:26Z amirouche: "all the pull requests" sounds like there will be a lot...
2020-12-30T20:08:00Z mangol: lol. make some unholy mashup between GPT-3 and that kind of manpage generator, and no human has to come up with another product idea ever again.
2020-12-30T20:08:11Z Zipheir: Sure.  A method should scale to more than 10 users, at the very least.
2020-12-30T20:09:48Z mangol: if PRs are too much noise, you can give direct commit access to trusted people as we do in normal git repos
2020-12-30T20:09:49Z Zipheir: Single-commit merges for edits also make for a huge number of merges, leading some git-based wikis to require squash-rebase from editors (and other horrible things).
2020-12-30T20:10:24Z Zipheir: Centralized VCS approaches make more sense for this sort of thing.
2020-12-30T20:12:17Z mangol: a decentralized VCS where you cancel all conflicting merges is like that. the merge is just a convenience if you don't want to drop all conflicting work on the floor :)
2020-12-30T20:13:07Z mangol: if you press "save" on a wiki and it says "sorry, somebody else was editing that" it's the same as typing `git merge --abort` when git yells at you
2020-12-30T20:14:36Z mangol: it's true that almost anything has a better UI than git. but when the audience is programmers, we already have to master git and use it all day.
2020-12-30T20:15:14Z rgherdt: amirouche: mangol: regarding gambitscheme.org, Marc explained in the gitter channel that the server is in his office in the university, which is closed for the holidays. He can only fix this next year
2020-12-30T20:16:32Z Zipheir: I'm becoming resigned to the possibility that, if I want to serve non-Git repositories to the world, I'll have to host them myself.
2020-12-30T20:17:04Z Zipheir: All of the various hosting services for Darcs, Fossil, Mercurial, etc. are drying up quickly.
2020-12-30T20:20:43Z mangol: rgherdt: thanks for the heads up
2020-12-30T20:23:50Z mangol: Zipheir: we've been considering the possibility of hosting a GitLab instance at git.scheme.org. that won't help with the VCS monoculture you lament,
2020-12-30T20:24:00Z mangol: but it'll be hosting off the commercial providers without the hassle of setting up a personal server
2020-12-30T20:25:15Z mangol: if someone volunteers to set up and maintain a server darcs.scheme.org or hg.scheme.org, I think we should let them do that
2020-12-30T20:25:57Z Zipheir: Good idea.
2020-12-30T20:26:05Z mangol: \o/
2020-12-30T20:27:12Z mangol: as it stands, the core of scheme.org is entirely DNS-based, not web-based. DNS is hosted at Gandi, and if any of our web servers breaks, subdomains not on that server
2020-12-30T20:27:16Z mangol: are guaranteed to keep working
2020-12-30T20:27:29Z mangol: so it's like a microkernel model vs monolithic kernel
2020-12-30T20:27:54Z mangol: and that implies there's no particular harm from adding lots of subdomains, some of them experimental or only used by a few people
2020-12-30T20:29:03Z mangol: that means we don't have to be all that discriminating on what sites to add. and that in turn makes it easier to increase the political neutrality of scheme.org.
2020-12-30T20:29:23Z mangol: we can "let a thousand flowers bloom" (or whatever the english saying is) to some extent
2020-12-30T20:30:11Z Riastradh: ...give a promise of political freedom of expression that helps you to identify the dissidents and rabblerousers so you can round them up to imprison and kill?
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2020-12-30T20:32:06Z mangol: man, what a time to talk about political schemes. there's not anything substantial to say on the topic without pissing off one side or the other
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2020-12-30T20:35:11Z mangol: anyway, Scheme-wise, the current plan to minimize the impact of political games is to establish an association to be the owner of scheme.org
2020-12-30T20:35:50Z mangol: and write a charter that says how that association will maintain scheme.org to prevent the games to the best of our ability. i don't see another way.
2020-12-30T20:36:29Z mangol: Riastradh: if you are experienced in dealing with Scheme-political games, any such experience would be very valuable in drafting a charter
2020-12-30T20:37:09Z mangol: I should be considered naive in these matters, so I've been betting on minimalism. minimalism is probably a big part of any good solution, but not the only part.
2020-12-30T20:38:45Z Riastradh: Not really!  But I can ask around.  jcowan and foof might have opinions.
2020-12-30T20:39:20Z mangol: or you're just saying you don't have experience so you can keep your friends close and your enemies closer :D
2020-12-30T20:40:19Z mangol: anyway, asking around is much appreciated!
2020-12-30T20:40:51Z mangol: i would be extremely surprised if we didn't have some fighting and strong words around the governance of scheme.org
2020-12-30T20:41:12Z mangol: in my view, it's beter to have those arguments early rather than late
2020-12-30T20:46:27Z amirouche: I clueless about politics, I do not know what problem scheme.org can bring up
2020-12-30T20:46:49Z amirouche: except maybe, choosing a particular scheme in the web REPL
2020-12-30T20:48:37Z amirouche: what about next r7rs ballot?
2020-12-30T20:48:43Z mangol: the most severe problem would be retaliation of some kind. e.g. there's a future R7RS vs R8RS split, and someone from one side edits the front page of scheme.org to strongly favor one or the other
2020-12-30T20:49:04Z mangol: and/or kicks out content favoring the other standard. or some kind of personal vendetta among the same lines.
2020-12-30T20:49:27Z mangol: while we should draft the charter to guard against these worst case scenarios, they are not the most likely problems
2020-12-30T20:50:15Z mangol: more likely is that people who are gatekeepers to access key resources (i.e. access to push web and dns changes, etc.) will disappear temporarily or permanently
2020-12-30T20:51:05Z mangol: or work so slowly that other people's work is interrupted, either unintentionally due to personal obstacles, or intentionally due to a lesser version of some misgivings like the above
2020-12-30T20:51:45Z mangol: for a gatekeeper of central assets, it doesn't take all that much action or inaction to get in other people's way, slow down work and decrease morale and trust community-wide
2020-12-30T20:52:34Z amirouche: is the r8rs split strong? what are there demands?
2020-12-30T20:52:52Z Zipheir: Why not see if scheme.org *becomes* a central asset first?
2020-12-30T20:53:00Z Zipheir: At the moment it's an empty page.
2020-12-30T20:53:15Z mangol: that's why i strongly favor the "microkernel" approach, where scheme.org is fundamentally DNS-based, and the front page www.scheme.org follows simple and clear rules agreed in advance
2020-12-30T20:53:51Z mangol: amirouche: AFAIK no-one has yet seriously proposed starting work on R8RS. that was just an example of what could cause disagreement many years in the future
2020-12-30T20:54:14Z amirouche: mangol: it comes up regularly in some ml, I think marc is in favor
2020-12-30T20:54:26Z mangol: Zipheir: scheme.org is inherently a central asset because it has the same name as the language. it's the most obvious domain name having to do with scheme.
2020-12-30T20:54:45Z mangol: amirouche: that's news to me. thanks for notifying
2020-12-30T20:55:06Z amirouche: but still they work on the syntax dockets
2020-12-30T20:55:09Z amirouche shrugs
2020-12-30T20:55:21Z mangol: Zipheir: more specifically, what I mean is that if there are two competing sites, Scheme.org and Scheme<something>.org, then Scheme.org will eventually win mindshare and publicity
2020-12-30T20:55:27Z mangol: if it's at all good
2020-12-30T20:56:09Z amirouche reading https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/ColorDockets.md
2020-12-30T20:56:15Z Zipheir: Anecdote: I've been Scheming since 2016 and this is the first time I've looked at that domain.
2020-12-30T20:56:48Z Zipheir: If it's got interesting content, I'm sure it will get attention.
2020-12-30T20:57:25Z mangol: Zipheir: exactly. you're not looking at it now because it's empty. but as soon as there's anything even halfway good in there, it'll catch your attention by default due to its name
2020-12-30T20:57:31Z amirouche: something interesting like... a search engine :D
2020-12-30T20:57:43Z mangol: yeah :)
2020-12-30T20:58:15Z Zipheir: amirouche: Ah, right.  Why did you nuke scheme-lang.org?
2020-12-30T20:58:16Z amirouche: I have been blocked by philosophical question
2020-12-30T20:58:30Z mangol: to rephrase my point yet again, the quality standards for Scheme<whatever>.org to get attention from the community are way higher than for Scheme.org
2020-12-30T20:58:32Z amirouche: Zipheir: it is https://scheme-lang.com/
2020-12-30T20:58:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-12-30T20:58:46Z Zipheir: Redirects to hyper.dev.
2020-12-30T20:58:53Z mangol: and that also means Scheme.org way more easily attracts bad actors and disagreements.
2020-12-30T20:58:58Z amirouche: oh no!
2020-12-30T20:59:07Z amirouche: Zipheir: really?
2020-12-30T20:59:26Z Zipheir: Weird, it doesn't now.
2020-12-30T20:59:55Z Zipheir: It came up before and I took a look and got a redirect.
2020-12-30T21:00:22Z amirouche: Zipheir: I have setup a permanent redirect a long time a go, but then bring it back
2020-12-30T21:00:36Z amirouche: permanent redirect a pain.
2020-12-30T21:00:50Z mdhughes: mangol: https://www.tutorialspoint.com/execute_scheme_online.php
2020-12-30T21:01:45Z amirouche: too bad ManDay is not around, because I got a great idea (but it also a lot of work)
2020-12-30T21:02:16Z amirouche: the for cookbook, we can pick most popular questions on StackOverflow, and solve them using scheme
2020-12-30T21:04:53Z amirouche: Zipheir: last time I pasted that link to someone new to scheme, they were impressed \o/
2020-12-30T21:05:56Z mangol: amirouche: that is an excellent cookbook idea. we still haven't cleared up the copyright status of https://github.com/schemedoc/cookbook
2020-12-30T21:06:37Z mangol: amirouche: would you like to experiment with making a search.scheme.org?
2020-12-30T21:06:53Z Zipheir: You should put some Scheme on it.  Factorial, at least.
2020-12-30T21:08:09Z amirouche: mangol: it is always my project, but I have some personnal philosophical problem (some will cringe) that boils down to: building essential programs for the web, always help to big players
2020-12-30T21:09:27Z amirouche: I was supposed to make a presentation to fosdem, but it will not be as good as I anticipated, the more I dive into the slides the more *empirical evidence* are missing..
2020-12-30T21:09:48Z amirouche: the presentation is about okvs.
2020-12-30T21:11:32Z amirouche see thumble weeed...
2020-12-30T21:13:42Z mdhughes: I just got up, reading a novella's worth of scrollback.
2020-12-30T21:15:26Z mdhughes: For try.scheme.org, biwa might be the best. It loads super fast, and it can be embedded.
2020-12-30T21:15:51Z mangol: amirouche: i can sympathize with that. if it's any consolation, scheme is not popular enough for the tech giants to use for any of their core tasks.
2020-12-30T21:16:08Z mdhughes: Noobs playing with "what even is Scheme" don't need it to be the best, just do something before they get bored.
2020-12-30T21:17:03Z mangol: i don't think there's much of anything we can do by writing software to either help or hurt the giants. they have been successfully going in the same direction for a long time
2020-12-30T21:17:52Z mangol: they need to be stopped with legislation, not code. with code, time is probably well spent writing peer-to-peer/encryption software
2020-12-30T21:18:07Z amirouche: hehe
2020-12-30T21:18:24Z mangol: those provide an alternative to the tech giants, but won't stop ordinary people from using them, which we probably can't
2020-12-30T21:19:42Z mangol: mdhughes: try.scheme.org should offer a choice of all the web REPL capable Scheme implementations eventually
2020-12-30T21:19:44Z mdhughes: The Community Wiki http://community.schemewiki.org is quite useful. Not a hotbed of activity, but there's a lot of contributors.
2020-12-30T21:20:11Z dieggsy: per previous discussion, i also found this: https://lips.js.org/
2020-12-30T21:20:25Z mangol: mdhughes: dieggsy: the Gambit and Lips authors are presently cooking up something for try.scheme.org
2020-12-30T21:20:31Z dieggsy: found here: https://github.com/schemedoc/awesome-scheme
2020-12-30T21:20:39Z mangol: if interested, please follow the issue tracker at https://github.com/schemeorg/try.scheme.org
2020-12-30T21:20:43Z dieggsy: mangol: oh! i didn't realize it was them
2020-12-30T21:20:55Z mangol: yeah :D scheme is quite interconnected
2020-12-30T21:22:07Z mangol: mdhughes: yes, just noticed the community wiki is still getting edits, so i probably spoke too soon about the lasting value of wikis.
2020-12-30T21:22:34Z dieggsy: hmm, where can i read about how r7rs compliant they are
2020-12-30T21:23:03Z mangol: however, it's a fact that wikis are not getting many edits. could we consolidate the existing scheme wikis into one?
2020-12-30T21:23:34Z mangol: shiro has good material at http://practical-scheme.net/wiliki/schemexref.cgi
2020-12-30T21:24:11Z mangol: scheme.org should do something to make scheme wikis easy to discover
2020-12-30T21:25:13Z mangol: dieggsy: the readmes of their github repos are the best bet to find out about compliance. but they're moving targets so you probably have to ask their authors for precise answers
2020-12-30T21:27:19Z mdhughes: Personally I much prefer wikis, as long as there's some management to watch for vandalism. Lower barrier to entry than checkout everything/add a few pages/checkin git workflow.
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2020-12-30T21:28:15Z mdhughes: But also I mostly put stuff on my own site https://mdhughes.tech/scheme
2020-12-30T21:29:57Z mangol: i like the fluorescent color theme :)
2020-12-30T21:31:12Z mdhughes: I have an aesthetic, and it is 1984.
2020-12-30T21:32:16Z mangol: personally, i'm a bit uneasy about 1984 becoming a more and more popular aesthetic lately. it's making inroads into wider society.
2020-12-30T21:32:56Z mdhughes: It's great. I listen to a lot of vaporwave, which is just "what if New Wave never ended".
2020-12-30T21:33:20Z Zipheir: There's never been any style other than 1984, and we've always been at war.
2020-12-30T21:33:23Z mangol: and fused with anime and 90's consumer products
2020-12-30T21:33:34Z mangol: 80's cop shows and what have you
2020-12-30T21:34:07Z dieggsy: woah, just saw that new gambit site demo, looks nice
2020-12-30T21:34:21Z Zipheir: If you don't use CSS, people can have whatever aesthetic they like.
2020-12-30T21:34:21Z dieggsy: amirouche: whatever they're using here: https://snow-fort.org/ for in-browser chibi seems decently quick to load
2020-12-30T21:37:13Z mangol: dieggsy: snow-fort.org has server-side chibi, not client side chibi
2020-12-30T21:37:29Z dieggsy: Ah, that makes sense
2020-12-30T21:37:47Z dieggsy: i suppose i looked to deep into the phrase 'in your browser' jaja
2020-12-30T21:39:59Z mangol: mdhughes: do you know the people running schemewiki.org?
2020-12-30T21:40:55Z mangol: would be clearest for users to have one "Wiki" link on the front page of scheme.org
2020-12-30T21:42:47Z mdhughes: I don't, I just use it.
2020-12-30T21:43:06Z mdhughes: Should be a link, I know they're absentee landlords much of the time.
2020-12-30T21:45:31Z mangol: do you know any details about who hosts/admins their servers, how wedded they are to their domain name, etc. the domain has worked somewhat unreliably for me in the past.
2020-12-30T21:46:11Z mangol: if we could entice them to move it under wiki.scheme.org, and arrange server administration so that someone other than them can at least restart the server if it fails, that would be great
2020-12-30T21:46:31Z mangol: and if we could merge in shiro's wiki, that would be even better
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2020-12-30T21:50:50Z mangol: in fact the footer of http://community.schemewiki.org says the wiki software is Gauche-based
2020-12-30T21:51:20Z mangol: wiliki, the same one that shiro's wiki is running
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2020-12-30T22:38:27Z wasamasa: as long as it uses relative URLs throughout, it should work as is with a CNAME record
2020-12-30T22:38:50Z wasamasa: but far from all websites are designed to work that way
2020-12-30T22:39:31Z wasamasa: for example hosting setups with multiple websites per IP look at the host header
2020-12-30T22:42:40Z mangol: TLS/SSL certificates are for a particular hostname. however, one cert can have multiple hostnames as aliases
2020-12-30T22:43:03Z mangol: so yes, we could add CNAME wiki.scheme.org -> community.schemewiki.org and go from there
2020-12-30T22:43:43Z mangol: however, the main issue is finding all the people involved and getting everyone to agree :)
2020-12-30T22:44:11Z mangol: if shiro and schemewiki.org are using the same software we have a fighting chance of persuading these people to merge the wikis
2020-12-30T22:45:01Z mangol: which i hope would gradually improve the quality of the content, keeping it more up to date and comprehensive
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2020-12-30T22:54:00Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, seen Kung Fury? =)
2020-12-30T22:55:29Z mdhughes: oni-on-ion: I have not, mostly watch "real" kung fu movies if I'm doing that. But if it ever hits my hobomax or netflix queues, I may.
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2020-12-31T06:12:29Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, its youtube. its made as callback to 80s vaporwave/synthwave
2020-12-31T06:12:47Z oni-on-ion: don't worry about it. just thought you would be interested in such a piece
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2020-12-31T06:55:25Z Zipheir: Was "vaporwave" the new New Wave that never materialized?
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2020-12-31T07:29:23Z mdhughes: Computer jokes! But it's named after neon vapor.
2020-12-31T07:30:21Z mdhughes: It's *that* on-the-nose recreation. One of the bands I like is Delorean.88. Another's Diskette Park (like parking disk heads).
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2020-12-31T09:15:01Z amirouche: last day of 2020... we should dance!
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2020-12-31T15:27:17Z mario-goulart: Hi.  Who maintains http://community.schemewiki.org ?
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2020-12-31T15:32:15Z amirouche: https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/track/declarative_and_minimalistic_computing/
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2020-12-31T21:52:28Z amirouche: boouhouuuuuuuuhouuuuuuuuuuuuuuu... makes the ghost of 2020...
2020-12-31T21:52:30Z amirouche: It knows it is the end...
2020-12-31T21:52:42Z amirouche: rudybot: 2020
2020-12-31T21:52:52Z rudybot: amirouche: error: with-limit: out of time
2020-12-31T21:53:05Z amirouche: meh
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2020-12-31T23:05:01Z amirouche: Happy new year everyone, I wish you only the best :)
2020-12-31T23:11:08Z Zipheir: Thanks, amirouche, you too.  Though New Year UTC isn't for 50 minutes.
2020-12-31T23:13:16Z amirouche: rudybot: what about Zipheir
2020-12-31T23:13:18Z rudybot: amirouche: Zipheir`: From what I've seen about Clojure, CL and Scheme are closer to each other than either is to Clojure.
2020-12-31T23:13:37Z amirouche: Zipheir: I wish I was a smart as you :)
2020-12-31T23:13:46Z amirouche: have good night!
2020-12-31T23:14:10Z aeth: that rudybot quote looks like something I wrote
2020-12-31T23:14:14Z amirouche: smart and knowledgeable.
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2020-12-31T23:16:07Z aeth: Hmm, yes. I was right. 2018-07-16. <aeth> Zipheir`: From what I've seen about Clojure, CL and Scheme are closer to each other than either is to Clojure.
2020-12-31T23:17:09Z Zipheir: Playing Cite That Quote!, are we?
2020-12-31T23:17:34Z Zipheir: rudybot: aeth
2020-12-31T23:17:35Z rudybot: Zipheir: if you really want minialism, aeth , i suggest you follow my road, using a user defined .xsession, running awesome, and xterm etc.
2020-12-31T23:17:50Z Zipheir: Heh, no idea.
2020-12-31T23:18:59Z aeth: I will add, however, that if Clojure does something weird like a continuation passing style under the hood or something, then you could argue that it's close to Scheme
2020-12-31T23:23:17Z Zipheir: If there's ever a Clojure spec, maybe someone could implement it on top of Scheme.
2020-12-31T23:24:19Z Zipheir: I suspect it could actually be just a Scheme library, even, given some procedural macros.  That would be amusing.
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2020-12-31T23:27:02Z aeth: nobody would use it without the Java or JavaScript interop, though
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