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2020-11-01T04:03:34Z rx_: this spawns a thread a returns a function to kill it? https://bpa.st/XI3Q
2020-11-01T04:03:57Z rx_: this is racket code btw
2020-11-01T04:06:26Z ZombieChicken: there is a #racket iirc. That might be a better place to ask
2020-11-01T04:07:13Z ski: (it looks like that, yes. but probably better to ask in there)
2020-11-01T04:08:25Z rx_: ok, I was in there too but the folks are probably all sleeping
2020-11-01T04:08:44Z rx_: I didn't understand threads that's why I messed up, carry on
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2020-11-01T05:47:23Z mdhughes: So, yes, that's what it does. Though you probably shouldn't use port 5, use something >1024 for user ports.
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2020-11-01T14:00:41Z weinholt: maybe there are some (MIT) ITS fans here? FOSS north has a live talk about it right now: https://youtu.be/gwHvm4OIkIc
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2020-11-01T16:49:34Z amirouche: (too bad lassi is not here)
2020-11-01T16:50:18Z amirouche: the problem I had with ports is that they are "polymorphic" because different kind of ports support different procedures
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2020-11-01T16:55:49Z amirouche: hence it is difficult to grasp for a scheme person, since it is the only object that has such a behavior.
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2020-11-01T19:27:53Z gwatt: You have a similar situation for the underlying file descriptors
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2020-11-01T20:54:02Z jcowan: amirouche: numbers are also polymorphic, even in relentlessly monomorphic Scheme
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2020-11-02T01:18:39Z nly: what's the empty character? #\0 or smthing?
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2020-11-02T01:32:56Z jcowan: #\x0
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2020-11-02T01:39:32Z nly: thanks
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2020-11-02T03:54:45Z mdhughes: Or #\nul
2020-11-02T03:55:02Z mdhughes: Or is that impl-specific?
2020-11-02T03:55:22Z mdhughes: It is specified in R6RS
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2020-11-02T04:29:22Z Zipheir: R7RS has #\null.
2020-11-02T04:52:38Z aeth: oh no
2020-11-02T04:53:40Z aeth: Now we have a potential for implementation incompatibility unless they support both
2020-11-02T04:53:56Z aeth: (bonus points if any arbitrary number of l's work)
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2020-11-02T05:33:02Z Zipheir: I wonder how many Schemes support #\nul vs. #\null.  "nul" is pretty weird; I'd guess more non-R6 Schemes have #\null or nothing.
2020-11-02T05:34:37Z siraben: I didn't know that R7RS had `#\null`, huh
2020-11-02T05:34:50Z siraben: And what is the value of `(if #f 1)`?
2020-11-02T05:35:32Z Zipheir: It's unspecified.
2020-11-02T05:36:04Z Zipheir: In many Schemes it's literally a value that prints as <unspecified>, which is not super helpful.
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2020-11-02T05:41:27Z Zipheir: (Though I can't think of a better way to do it, provided the 'unspecified' object is disjoint from all other Scheme objects.  The violation of this principle is why I think returning #f is bad.)
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2020-11-02T05:46:15Z siraben: Yeah, R5RS specifies it should be `#<undefined>`
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2020-11-02T05:48:06Z mdhughes: nul is the ASCII term, all the control chars are 2-3 chars.
2020-11-02T05:50:37Z Zipheir: Duh, of course.
2020-11-02T05:53:55Z Zipheir: But that's sort of contradicted in R6RS by the use of #\alarm instead of #\bel, #\linefeed or #\newline instead of #\lf, etc.
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2020-11-02T06:21:26Z mdhughes: I agree, it's all very inconsistent.
2020-11-02T06:21:59Z mdhughes: Also it says linefeed is preferred, newline is obsolete. R7 then only has newline.
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2020-11-02T07:15:28Z amirouche: jcowan: I think the http-request proposal link at https://github.com/pre-srfi/http-1.1/issues/1 should be https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/HttpRequest.md
2020-11-02T07:15:38Z amirouche: the current link points to an "edit" page.
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2020-11-02T08:44:36Z amirouche: it should have been a private message i guess :s
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2020-11-02T14:44:01Z amirouche: lockywolf: to execute wasm you need to do: cd js/ && python3 -m http.server
2020-11-02T14:44:19Z amirouche: lockywolf: because files:// will not use the correct mime type for wasm files, IIRC
2020-11-02T14:44:38Z amirouche: lockywolf: about the -static vs. -shared... idk!
2020-11-02T14:44:51Z lockywolf: hm...
2020-11-02T14:44:55Z lockywolf: sounds horrible
2020-11-02T14:46:02Z lockywolf: thanks for finding the option any way
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2020-11-02T15:22:34Z lockywolf: chibi-emscripten is not really a web-repl, is it?
2020-11-02T15:24:11Z lockywolf: but I guess I can write a bitcoin miner in scheme, host it on gitlab pages and ask people to keep https://lockywolf.net/donate open as long as possible
2020-11-02T15:24:31Z wasamasa: not really worth it for bitcoin
2020-11-02T15:24:44Z lockywolf: although maybe finding a bitcoin miner written in javascript is easier
2020-11-02T15:24:45Z wasamasa: and the monero equivalent looks annoying to implement in anything else
2020-11-02T15:26:47Z amirouche: chibi emscripten is an interpreter, it is rather heavy in terms of size.
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2020-11-02T15:43:11Z amirouche: chibi with the libraries (chibi.data) is around 3M.
2020-11-02T15:43:35Z amirouche: with the emscripten build, is that it is not easy to add custom libraries without forking chibi git.
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2020-11-02T15:48:35Z amirouche: ah yes, that is _gambit.js that is verrrrry large: 32M
2020-11-02T15:48:56Z amirouche waiting for tree shaking inside gambit ;)
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2020-11-03T06:01:23Z bug2000: Is reading r7rs a reasonable way to learn scheme? Assuming one read enough about scheme but hardly wrote any.
2020-11-03T06:06:46Z aeth: r7rs.pdf is Scheme, but almost anything useful will need some extensions, maybe SRFIs
2020-11-03T06:06:50Z aeth: e.g. no hash tables
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2020-11-03T06:12:37Z aeth: so it depends on if you want Scheme or "practical Scheme"
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2020-11-03T06:20:20Z bug2000: aeth, so r7rs.pdf then check what SRFI look related before trying to build everything on my own.
2020-11-03T06:29:02Z aeth: either SRFIs or the documentation of the implementation you're using
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2020-11-03T07:33:46Z lockywolf_: bug2000, I learned scheme by reading r7rs.pdf, and it was not easy
2020-11-03T07:33:53Z lockywolf_: *learnt
2020-11-03T07:34:35Z lockywolf_: I still can't say that I understand every part of it.
2020-11-03T07:34:58Z aeth: supplement with The Little Schemer
2020-11-03T07:35:11Z aeth: everyone says SICP, but that's more about CS
2020-11-03T07:35:17Z lockywolf_: So the common saying that "scheme is very small, the whole reference is shorted than Common Lisp's index" is a huge lie.
2020-11-03T07:35:37Z lockywolf_: *shorter
2020-11-03T07:35:40Z aeth: the problem is that Scheme is minimalist, but it's not minimalist in the way that, say, Lua is minimalist
2020-11-03T07:35:47Z aeth: Scheme's minimalism exposes you to some really hard concepts
2020-11-03T07:36:01Z aeth: call/cc is core, and tail recursion is the idiomatic iteration
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2020-11-03T07:36:18Z lockywolf_: tail recursion is actually easy
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2020-11-03T07:37:02Z aeth: if you read The Little Schemer
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2020-11-03T07:38:19Z lockywolf_: I haven't actually, yet
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2020-11-03T09:10:59Z mdhughes: TSPL is a really good book for learning Scheme.
2020-11-03T09:11:51Z mdhughes: It's much more practical programming than theory.
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2020-11-03T09:13:57Z lockywolf_: TSPL is a horrible book :)
2020-11-03T09:14:17Z erkin: ouch
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2020-11-03T09:16:05Z lockywolf_: it's distribution of exercises makes very little sense, not every topic is covered by exercises. i.g., syntax-case deserves a whole chapter, and almost no exercises
2020-11-03T09:17:36Z lockywolf_: It's literally written like "I take a tutorial and put it into Chapter 1, I take my draft notes that made it into Chez, but not into r6rs, and append them to the tutorial; and.. aww, I have another 30 mind-blowing examples, so I'll append them too and make Chapter 10.)
2020-11-03T09:17:40Z lockywolf_: "
2020-11-03T09:18:31Z lockywolf_: it's not actually a book
2020-11-03T09:21:28Z lockywolf_: saying that...
2020-11-03T09:21:59Z lockywolf_: "Documentation is like sex; when it's good, it's very, very good, and when it's bad, it's better than nothing."
2020-11-03T09:23:39Z mdhughes: Maybe you read an entirely different book than me. Or were holding it upside down.
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2020-11-03T09:24:29Z mdhughes: What I got was a nice progression of topics, each covered in pretty good depth.
2020-11-03T09:24:40Z lockywolf_: well, it's easy to verify
2020-11-03T09:24:58Z lockywolf_: which exercises help to learn syntax-case?
2020-11-03T09:25:08Z lockywolf_: I mean, numbers.
2020-11-03T09:25:58Z mdhughes: Do you mean chapters? Perhaps English is the first hurdle.
2020-11-03T09:26:26Z mdhughes: Because chapter 8 covers syntax-case.
2020-11-03T09:26:35Z lockywolf_: yes, but which exercises?
2020-11-03T09:26:50Z lockywolf_: you can give page numbers instead of exercise numbers
2020-11-03T09:27:10Z mdhughes: I can't really, because I use a PDF generated from the HTML.
2020-11-03T09:27:40Z mdhughes: But chapter 8.4 redefines define-record-type effectively, from first principles.
2020-11-03T09:30:05Z lockywolf_: you can use this pdf: http://server.lockywolf.net/~lockywolf/tspl.pdf
2020-11-03T09:30:34Z mdhughes: <tap> Is this thing on? Did you find the chapter now I gave you its case-point number?
2020-11-03T09:30:59Z lockywolf_: Did I say anything about "chapters"?
2020-11-03T09:31:13Z lockywolf_: tell me "which exercise"
2020-11-03T09:31:33Z mdhughes: I did, it's 8.4
2020-11-03T09:31:51Z mdhughes: Is this supposed to prove something?
2020-11-03T09:31:56Z lockywolf_: the problem is, there is no exercise 8.4
2020-11-03T09:32:44Z mdhughes: <looks at PDF that says 8.4 Examples>
2020-11-03T09:32:52Z lockywolf_: what about exercises?
2020-11-03T09:33:16Z mdhughes: Be sure to limber up before reading.
2020-11-03T09:33:42Z mdhughes: Is a book only a book if it has homework exercises with odd numbers solved in a teacher's guide?
2020-11-03T09:33:49Z lockywolf_: whatever. any
2020-11-03T09:34:00Z mdhughes: Or are there, perhaps, better ways to teach complex ideas?
2020-11-03T09:34:13Z lockywolf_: I doubt that.
2020-11-03T09:35:00Z mdhughes: You can doubt and still be very wrong.
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2020-11-03T09:35:22Z lockywolf_: well, maybe, technically it is "a book", as in "a stack of sheets bound together", but its added value compared to reading documentation is minimal
2020-11-03T09:35:31Z lockywolf_: but maybe that's just me
2020-11-03T09:35:38Z mdhughes: It is, in fact, just you.
2020-11-03T09:35:41Z lockywolf_: :)
2020-11-03T09:37:05Z mdhughes: It's organized very much like the programming books I'm used to. Teach a concept, dive deep into that whole area with very few forward references, then move forward. It's a lot more conversational than reading the specs.
2020-11-03T09:38:52Z lockywolf_: well, the absence of forward references is a great thing, I can't deny that
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2020-11-03T09:54:46Z GoGi: If I want to write a scheme interpreter in scheme, I could just feed all the input to eval, correct?
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2020-11-03T09:56:40Z GoGi: On the other hand, I could also really write it myself (in some sense, in particular without using eval)
2020-11-03T09:57:14Z GoGi: Is it somehow possible to explain precisely what the difference is?
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2020-11-03T10:41:12Z wasamasa: the knowledge learned in the process
2020-11-03T10:41:37Z wasamasa: doing your own interpreter would also enable you to sandbox effectively
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2020-11-03T10:42:00Z wasamasa: and pulling other tricks of that kind
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2020-11-03T16:06:38Z gwatt: You can still sandbox effectively if you use the system eval
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2020-11-03T16:23:11Z jcowan: See https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-172/srfi-172.html for two libraries meant to provide global scopes for "safer" and "safer plus pure" subsets of R7RS-small.
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2020-11-03T19:01:51Z amirouche: at last a log facility srfi: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-215/
2020-11-03T19:03:41Z wasamasa: log5scm
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2020-11-03T20:58:57Z mdhughes: … Is that a joke? It has no file handlers, no formatters, no call stack for exceptions.
2020-11-03T20:59:43Z mdhughes: It's a spec that proposes nothing but two function names. Hey, do all the useful work yourself.
2020-11-03T21:01:25Z wasamasa: now direct that energy at weinholt
2020-11-03T21:01:39Z wasamasa: it's in draft state after all
2020-11-03T21:02:12Z mdhughes: I suppose so. I have a useful logger module, it's just not written up as a spec.
2020-11-03T21:02:14Z Zipheir: Formatting and exceptions stacks would seem to be way out of scope for a logging-system agnostic spec.
2020-11-03T21:02:39Z Zipheir: The whole idea seems to be to provide a general interface to arbitrary logging setups.
2020-11-03T21:02:51Z wasamasa: still, it would be cool if you had some way to include logging backtraces if supported
2020-11-03T21:03:22Z wasamasa: one use of aggregating logs is to study these afterwards and correlate them with other metadata
2020-11-03T21:03:52Z mdhughes: My solution to that is a Chicken-specific hack, but at least taking an exception and doing *something* with it is better.
2020-11-03T21:04:24Z Zipheir: That's what the R7RS exception system is for.  There's no reason to define `guard', again.
2020-11-03T21:04:30Z mdhughes: So, I'm headed asleep now, I'll see about the list in 8 hours.
2020-11-03T21:08:09Z wasamasa: Zipheir: but can you use that to turn it into a sexp to be logged away?
2020-11-03T21:09:11Z Zipheir: If the condition object is a sexp and you're OK with logging with `display' to a file or (current-error-port), then sure.
2020-11-03T21:09:27Z Zipheir: (That's a pure R7RS-small way to do it, at least.)
2020-11-03T21:09:39Z wasamasa: I mean, in a way compatible with that proposal
2020-11-03T21:10:01Z Zipheir: Not sure, I've only skimmed it so far.
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2020-11-03T21:13:44Z Zipheir: Seems to be quite a bit of MUSTard.
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2020-11-04T01:26:21Z lockywolf_: Is there a more or less well-known way to hook into reader syntax?
2020-11-04T01:28:33Z lockywolf_: I want something like (with-reader-syntax-error-handler (lambda () (display "hello" ) (lambda-syntax-error (ex) (ex 'print-itself))) => "Ex: malformed s-expression."
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2020-11-04T04:46:44Z laertus: newbie question...
2020-11-04T04:46:59Z laertus: let's say i have:  (define (foo bar . baz) ...)
2020-11-04T04:47:22Z laertus: i'm don't understand how to interpret the (foo bar . baz) part
2020-11-04T04:47:33Z laertus: i know foo is the name of the function
2020-11-04T04:47:47Z laertus: but i don't understand the "bar . baz"
2020-11-04T04:48:01Z laertus: i looked up the relevant section of r5rs, but still don't really get it
2020-11-04T04:49:10Z laertus: does baz collect every argument after bar in a list or something?
2020-11-04T04:50:30Z laertus: and... that does look like that's what's happening
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2020-11-04T05:24:50Z ski: laertus : yes
2020-11-04T05:25:17Z laertus: thanks :)
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2020-11-05T01:20:04Z lockywolf_: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-216/
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2020-11-05T01:32:12Z lockywolf_: Everyone is invited to discuss :). It's a continuation of SRFI-203 (wow, we have 13 SRFIs in 3 months).
2020-11-05T01:32:24Z lockywolf_: Still speaking about SICP.
2020-11-05T01:33:13Z lockywolf_: And being able to solve it with "a Scheme", and not just two-three blessed implementations.
2020-11-05T01:48:01Z jcowan: Great stuff, lockywolf_
2020-11-05T01:48:09Z lockywolf_: :)
2020-11-05T01:49:25Z jcowan: I recommend implementing `runtime` with `current-jiffy` and `jiffies-per-second`.  That is what they are for.
2020-11-05T01:49:48Z jcowan: Also your current implementation delivers milliseconds and not microseconds.
2020-11-05T01:50:14Z lockywolf_: ouch, that's true
2020-11-05T01:50:44Z jcowan: One bignum looks much like another bignum, unfortunately.
2020-11-05T01:51:16Z jcowan: (but (* (current-jiffy) (jiffies-per-second) #e1e6) will do it for you
2020-11-05T01:51:45Z lockywolf_: What does (but) do?
2020-11-05T01:52:11Z lockywolf_: oops, disregard that
2020-11-05T01:52:43Z jcowan laughs
2020-11-05T01:52:50Z jcowan: yeah, the leading ( is bogus
2020-11-05T01:57:32Z lockywolf_: I'm still surprised that I happen to be the person to do this. I would have expected this to be one of the first SRFIs proposed.
2020-11-05T01:58:07Z lockywolf_: after the list library, obviously
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2020-11-05T05:25:57Z erkin: lockywolf_: Thanks for the SICP SRFIs. This will help newbies who struggle with following SICP with Schemes other than MIT/GNU Scheme and Racket.
2020-11-05T05:26:36Z lockywolf_: if they are ever adopted :)
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2020-11-05T05:50:29Z erkin: I don't see why not!
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2020-11-05T06:34:38Z lockywolf_: erkin, you can make a bug report in your favourite implementation's bugtracker
2020-11-05T06:34:50Z lockywolf_: and/or review the document
2020-11-05T06:35:20Z lockywolf_: github.com/lockywolf/srfi-216 has the most recent version
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2020-11-05T07:38:42Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: for some reason I expected no more picture language there
2020-11-05T07:39:09Z lockywolf_: where?
2020-11-05T07:39:23Z wasamasa: in srfi-216
2020-11-05T07:39:30Z wasamasa: why mandate jpeg?
2020-11-05T07:39:50Z lockywolf_: jpeg in 216?
2020-11-05T07:40:01Z lockywolf_: which line, which file?
2020-11-05T07:40:07Z lockywolf_: definitely a bug
2020-11-05T07:40:20Z wasamasa: sorry, 203
2020-11-05T07:40:30Z wasamasa: anyway, too late
2020-11-05T07:40:44Z lockywolf_: because I want line-to-line portability
2020-11-05T07:40:47Z wasamasa: now the archeologist from the future will shake their head at you
2020-11-05T07:40:51Z lockywolf_: (load)-level portability
2020-11-05T07:40:58Z wasamasa: "What were they thinking?"
2020-11-05T07:41:12Z lockywolf_: moreover, jpeg is optional
2020-11-05T07:41:34Z lockywolf_: because the only choice is really between jpeg and xpm
2020-11-05T07:41:36Z wasamasa: still, why not just make it generic and tell the implementation to document what they accept
2020-11-05T07:41:56Z wasamasa: why not do it like in every single other SRFI and keep things open-ended
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2020-11-05T07:42:16Z lockywolf_: you can do that if you don't load files
2020-11-05T07:42:16Z wasamasa: you can't know whether we'll be using HEIC instead in five years or so
2020-11-05T07:42:36Z lockywolf_: SICP does not load any files
2020-11-05T07:43:07Z wasamasa: I don't see how that is related
2020-11-05T07:43:16Z wasamasa: SICP chose to omit mentioning anything not required to explain CS
2020-11-05T07:43:26Z lockywolf_: because the whole point of this srfi is to make student's code portable
2020-11-05T07:43:29Z wasamasa: I expect a SRFI for it to be likewise
2020-11-05T07:43:48Z lockywolf_: I write my code at home using kawa, I send it to my professor, and he can run it using gauche.
2020-11-05T07:43:56Z lockywolf_: no changes involved
2020-11-05T07:44:22Z wasamasa: lol, as if that will ever happen
2020-11-05T07:44:33Z wasamasa: the reality we live in is that some adjustments are always required
2020-11-05T07:44:38Z wasamasa: cond-expand your way whenever needed
2020-11-05T07:45:03Z lockywolf_: I should have written in some cond-expand features into the srfi
2020-11-05T07:45:16Z lockywolf_: but nobody suggested that
2020-11-05T07:45:22Z lockywolf_: and I was too ignorant
2020-11-05T07:46:12Z lockywolf_: like, srfi-203 for the strict subset, and srfi-203-jpeg for the one implementing jpeg loading
2020-11-05T07:46:27Z wasamasa: overengineering is what we call that
2020-11-05T07:46:40Z lockywolf_: "as if it will ever happen", stuff is regularly compiled with both GCC and CLANG
2020-11-05T07:46:46Z wasamasa: in scheme land, yes
2020-11-05T07:46:55Z lockywolf_: well, I do not like that
2020-11-05T07:47:08Z wasamasa: there's more than 200 SRFIs and a fraction works across more than one or two implementations
2020-11-05T07:47:21Z lockywolf_: you can propose your own one
2020-11-05T07:47:30Z wasamasa: and worse, it looks like the SRFI process is getting junked up with the darndest things
2020-11-05T07:47:34Z lockywolf_: it's deliberately broken down into two
2020-11-05T07:47:44Z lockywolf_: what does "darndest" mean?
2020-11-05T07:48:04Z wasamasa: like the proposal for a basic web server or http client
2020-11-05T07:48:17Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, moreover, if you make it before 216 is final, I'll reference it in 216
2020-11-05T07:48:40Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, what's wrong about them?
2020-11-05T07:48:55Z wasamasa: you're entering territory that is meant to be used by a package manager
2020-11-05T07:49:08Z lockywolf_: 10 years ago I would have agreed
2020-11-05T07:49:12Z wasamasa: which are far more flexible than a standardization process
2020-11-05T07:50:08Z wasamasa: especially now that SRFIs inch towards being implementable in 100% portable scheme
2020-11-05T07:50:09Z lockywolf_: until there is a standard OS interface, how can we do that?
2020-11-05T07:51:26Z lockywolf_: I mean, yeah, it would have been great to have a standard socket library, which could host the  http server/client package
2020-11-05T07:51:36Z wasamasa: there is one, lol
2020-11-05T07:51:41Z lockywolf_: which one?
2020-11-05T07:51:57Z wasamasa: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-106/srfi-106.html
2020-11-05T07:52:44Z lockywolf_: cool. I didn't know about it. great that I didn't dig into this before
2020-11-05T07:53:58Z lockywolf_: well, you can try to bend the process to your own liking a bit
2020-11-05T07:55:49Z lockywolf_: I suspect that if you try to collect a subset of desperately needed scheme features, and do the editing, it can be voted in as an r7rs-large part.
2020-11-05T07:56:51Z amirouche: web server and http client are still a pre-srfi stage
2020-11-05T07:57:11Z lockywolf_: scheme doesn't exactly suffer from an over-supply of people doing social work
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2020-11-05T07:57:57Z wasamasa: it just seems petty to me, like children playing in separate corners of a sandbox
2020-11-05T07:58:26Z lockywolf_: it is!
2020-11-05T07:58:45Z lockywolf_: but again, do the leadership
2020-11-05T07:59:31Z lockywolf_: few people are both as knowledgeable, and respected in the community to do such a job
2020-11-05T07:59:56Z wasamasa: sorry, I'm firmly in the package managers camp
2020-11-05T08:00:30Z lockywolf_: I never said that you shouldn't be.
2020-11-05T08:00:50Z wasamasa: from time to time there's some interesting looking SRFI like this okvs thing and getting it running has been quite the yak shave so far
2020-11-05T08:01:14Z wasamasa: because once you buy into one 100% portable scheme SRFI, you need to buy into the rest of the SRFIs it depends on
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2020-11-05T08:01:43Z lockywolf_: I'm just saying that people are proposing petty features due to the lack of leadership, not because people like petty features.
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2020-11-05T08:02:18Z lockywolf_: If the agenda is stuffed with the "important stuff", petty features don't get their part of attention.
2020-11-05T08:02:54Z wasamasa: things like extending core syntax by multiple values support is something I don't expect any other implementation to get, so it's more of a "Yes, we support standardized features" signal to me than an useful standardization effort
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2020-11-05T08:03:23Z wasamasa: srfi-201 I mean
2020-11-05T08:04:55Z wasamasa: also, someone explain to me why there's both srfi-200 and srfi-205 for pattern matching
2020-11-05T08:05:55Z wasamasa: they target the same implementation, mind you
2020-11-05T08:06:03Z lockywolf_: 204
2020-11-05T08:06:14Z lockywolf_: well, call these people out
2020-11-05T08:06:28Z wasamasa: the only justification I see is "This SRFI aims to specify a matching syntax beyond S-expressions", but I don't see such a thing in the document at al
2020-11-05T08:06:32Z lockywolf_: it's a 100% valid concern
2020-11-05T08:06:51Z lockywolf_: did you report this in the mailing list?
2020-11-05T08:06:57Z lockywolf_: *both mailing lists*
2020-11-05T08:07:12Z wasamasa: I mean, the author is clearly aware of the previous effort
2020-11-05T08:07:34Z lockywolf_: the second?
2020-11-05T08:07:38Z wasamasa: yes
2020-11-05T08:08:00Z wasamasa: this might be the best example for the sandbox argument
2020-11-05T08:08:20Z wasamasa: if they were like, writing their own packages instead of prematurely standardizing something, that would be great
2020-11-05T08:08:49Z lockywolf_: and both are stuck
2020-11-05T08:09:10Z wasamasa: they don't even need to do that much groundwork as it already exists in several scheme implementations
2020-11-05T08:09:32Z lockywolf_: well, I believe that it's a valid concern to withdraw these proposals
2020-11-05T08:09:35Z lockywolf_: both
2020-11-05T08:09:51Z lockywolf_: and tell these people that the are not within the time frame
2020-11-05T08:09:55Z lockywolf_: *they
2020-11-05T08:10:11Z wasamasa: > If you're interested in this SRFI, please give your feedback via the SRFI 204 mailing list before 2020-10-20. After that, assuming that no major revisions are required, we will declare it final. It is important that we get your feedback before 2020-10-20. If that deadline is too soon for you, but you would like to contribute, please let me know so that I can extend the last-call period.
2020-11-05T08:10:56Z lockywolf_: neglected for 15 days
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2020-11-05T08:12:49Z wasamasa: my best explanation so far is that srfi-204 stole the show, going by the amount of comments received on both mailing lists
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2020-11-05T08:13:19Z lockywolf_: email both lists, and say "please, explain yourself"
2020-11-05T08:13:53Z lockywolf_: I'm serious
2020-11-05T08:14:33Z lockywolf_: I am completely ignorant about pattern matching, but I do not see why such a reasonable concern is not voiced.
2020-11-05T08:14:37Z lockywolf_: it is 100% valid
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2020-11-05T08:24:50Z wasamasa: I'll have to properly read both proposals first
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2020-11-05T08:26:12Z lockywolf_: (thumbs 'up)
2020-11-05T08:26:24Z wasamasa: chances are that there's some big change in API
2020-11-05T08:26:33Z wasamasa: like 204 having more meat to it than 200
2020-11-05T08:26:42Z wasamasa: still, it's a stupid situation to be in
2020-11-05T08:28:08Z lockywolf_: aren't they compatible?
2020-11-05T08:28:58Z lockywolf_: 204 mentions 200, but I did not understand whether they are compatible, and I think it is a very valid point to make
2020-11-05T08:29:43Z lockywolf_: I think that it is perfectly valid to ask to clarify whether 204 is intended to be a competitor to, or a superset of 200
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2020-11-05T11:33:49Z lockywolf_: if any soviet people here, enjoy - https://habr.com/ru/post/526596/
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2020-11-05T11:48:03Z erkin: One is Racket `match', the other is Chibi `match'.
2020-11-05T11:48:10Z erkin: Oops, I was scrolled up.
2020-11-05T11:48:39Z erkin: I got around to updating the SRFI table by the way: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/schemedoc/srfi-metadata/blob/master/table.html
2020-11-05T11:52:06Z erkin: Gambit column is broken because the SRFIs listed in the README and the files in lib/srfi are different. eg It implements SRFI-41 but doesn't list it in README.
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2020-11-05T12:11:20Z wasamasa: erkin: well, ok
2020-11-05T12:11:23Z wasamasa: erkin: so that means that only a few will have racket match and some more will have chibi match?
2020-11-05T12:12:07Z erkin: wasamasa: Unfortunately, yes.
2020-11-05T12:12:15Z wasamasa: welp
2020-11-05T12:12:21Z wasamasa: no need for me to send out any email then
2020-11-05T12:12:24Z erkin: And some will have both.
2020-11-05T12:12:45Z erkin: IMO you should still send it because this split bothers me too.
2020-11-05T12:12:56Z wasamasa: rudybot: choose your SRFIs carefully
2020-11-05T12:12:58Z rudybot: wasamasa: it is easy to carefully delineate the non standard part, and to provide different implementations for the different scheme implementations. This is what SRFIs are all about.
2020-11-05T12:13:24Z erkin: But I guess having both SRFIs is actually a good thing because most implementations implement either `match'es with slight differences.
2020-11-05T12:14:01Z erkin: At least we can know that if one of these SRFIs is implemented, it conforms to our expectations about Racket and Chibi `match'es without tiny gotchas.
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2020-11-05T12:15:36Z erkin: I'll try to add external library support details to the table today.
2020-11-05T12:16:33Z erkin: Actually maybe I'll make a separate table of SRFI libraries and make note of which implementations they're targetting to avoid cluttering the implementation table.
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2020-11-05T13:06:03Z jcowan: It's important to distinguish between a SRFI (or any other library) being *packaged* for a Scheme and actually running there.  I have a bunch of SRFIs which were tested on Chicken (R5RS+), Ypsilon (vanilla R6RS), Guile (R6RS+), and Chibi (R7RS).
2020-11-05T13:06:40Z jcowan: But implementations are mostly portable except at the level of the library definition (module, define-library, library)
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2020-11-05T13:07:00Z wasamasa: how come you haven't submitted the ones tested for a specific scheme system to them?
2020-11-05T13:07:10Z wasamasa: or is it better for someone else to do that?
2020-11-05T13:07:21Z jcowan: Don't I have enough work to do, while also working for a living?  (half :-))
2020-11-05T13:07:53Z wasamasa: ok, so it's not an oversight
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2020-11-05T13:08:22Z jcowan: No.  I'm trying to get R7RS-large something like done within the time I have.
2020-11-05T13:09:15Z jcowan: Right now that means design (with lots of help there), SRFI-writing, and cat-herding now that I have some people with enough energy to write implementations.
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2020-11-05T16:15:32Z amirouche: o/
2020-11-05T16:15:52Z amirouche: if you think lisp is confusing, welcome to lisp scheme :)
2020-11-05T16:16:16Z thelounge28: amirouche i am also new at irc xD
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2020-11-05T16:25:32Z amirouche: ah ok
2020-11-05T16:25:53Z amirouche: then one of the rule of IRC is to be patient :)
2020-11-05T16:26:10Z amirouche: thelounge28: you want to learn scheme or you want to learn programming ?
2020-11-05T16:26:42Z amirouche: thelounge28: better question: do you know how to program in a programming language?
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2020-11-05T16:28:56Z thelounge28: wanna learning "how to program" through lisp
2020-11-05T16:29:34Z amirouche: then I am not sure sicp is the best book to learn how to program
2020-11-05T16:30:46Z amirouche: SICP is a somewhat advanced if I understand correctly
2020-11-05T16:30:52Z amirouche: maybe other will disagree
2020-11-05T16:31:45Z amirouche: thelounge28: If you do not have prior programming experience, I think this book is good for you https://htdp.org/2020-8-1/Book/index.html
2020-11-05T16:31:51Z thelounge28: amirouche not just sicp and also reading some beginner stuffs related with lisp dialects
2020-11-05T16:32:02Z amirouche: thelounge28: feel free to ask questions
2020-11-05T16:32:23Z amirouche: thelounge28: if you can stay connected it is better :)
2020-11-05T16:33:09Z thelounge28: amirouche thanks so much man really appreciate
2020-11-05T16:37:38Z TCZ: yes htdp is the best, many graphical programs, games, trees, fractals
2020-11-05T16:39:29Z jcowan: Different books for different folks
2020-11-05T16:39:59Z jcowan: I learned Lisp from reverse engineering the code examples in the Dartmouth Lisp manual
2020-11-05T16:40:14Z jcowan: essentially by playing metacircular interpreter
2020-11-05T16:40:30Z amirouche: did you try LALR parsing?
2020-11-05T16:40:51Z amirouche hides
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2020-11-05T16:43:01Z thelounge28: amirouche i do not understand irc sorry. what did you hide there?
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2020-11-05T16:44:22Z amirouche: thelounge28: I was doing a joke
2020-11-05T16:44:33Z amirouche: I meant to say that I am hiding myself, because of the joke.
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2020-11-05T16:45:36Z thelounge28: i got it
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2020-11-05T17:42:18Z erkin: Added third-party libraries: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/schemedoc/srfi-metadata/blob/master/table.html
2020-11-05T17:42:50Z erkin: Attached chez-srfi in a separate colour to Chez and Loko; added Snow Fort as a separate column at the right-end, next to SLIB.
2020-11-05T17:43:12Z erkin: Maybe I should note SRFIs with portable reference implementations as well.
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2020-11-05T18:32:49Z jcowan: amirouche: I am actually more of an LL(1) fan, because it is easy to write recursive descent parsers for LL(1) languages.
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2020-11-05T18:33:32Z jcowan: Except that I have written so many God damned recursive descent parsers in my life that I become sick with weariness every time I contemplate writing another.
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2020-11-05T18:38:30Z Zipheir: "... I decided to switch to the simplest parsing method for Pascal: top-down, recursive descent.  The experience was most encouraging, and I have stuck to it to this day with great satisfaction." (Wirth)
2020-11-05T18:39:44Z Zipheir: But I very much agree with Riastradh that a parser generator is a Good Thing, if only for ensuring the parser is correct.
2020-11-05T18:44:20Z jcowan: Well, I'd like to have a parser generator that spat out the recursive descent parser which I could then merge with semantic routines.
2020-11-05T18:44:37Z jcowan: There are really two use cases: when the grammar is changing and when it is not.
2020-11-05T18:45:20Z Zipheir: I imagine such a thing would be possible with the (equivalent) monadic parsing combinators, as they tend to be easily composable.
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2020-11-05T18:45:43Z Zipheir: YACC syntax -> parsing function
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2020-11-05T18:48:59Z jcowan nods.
2020-11-05T18:49:37Z jcowan: One advantage of r.d. is that it needs no tools, just stick-to-it-iveness.
2020-11-05T18:50:52Z Zipheir: But the advantage of "the tools" is that your parser gets checked for ambiguity and there's a termination guarantee for the resulting automaton.
2020-11-05T18:51:45Z Zipheir: Side note: A portable YACC syntax for Scheme would be nice.
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2020-11-05T18:52:44Z jcowan: Increasingly many grammars are being written with PEGs anyway, where ambiguity is resolved up front
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2020-11-05T18:53:50Z Zipheir: Usually by switching to LL(∞) parsing, AFAIK, which is bad, bad, bad.
2020-11-05T18:54:27Z Zipheir: But PEG doesn't necessarily describe the parsing technique.
2020-11-05T18:55:12Z gwatt: perl6 has an interesting parsing / grammar library
2020-11-05T18:55:20Z Zipheir: But PEG I think presupposes infinite lookahead.
2020-11-05T18:56:03Z jcowan: With memoization, yes.
2020-11-05T18:56:17Z jcowan: Which makes it quite reasonable most of the time.
2020-11-05T18:57:08Z Zipheir: I think it's a bad sign for a language if infinite lookahead is required. "If a language poses difficulties to parsers, it surely also poses difficulties for the human reader."
2020-11-05T18:58:22Z amirouche: Zipheir: +1
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2020-11-05T19:50:43Z Zipheir: jcowan: What do you think about MN-W's idea of making SRFI 209 work as an extension to (r6rs enums)?
2020-11-05T19:51:12Z Zipheir: IIRC from reading the R6 library, there aren't any significant incompatibilities.
2020-11-05T19:53:39Z jcowan: Here's what it says for enum-constructor: "Returns a unary procedure that, given a list of symbols that belong to the universe of enum-set, returns a subset of that universe that contains exactly the symbols in the list. The values in the list must all belong to the universe."
2020-11-05T19:54:45Z jcowan: Also, do you agree about define-enumeration, and would you feel up to having it?  I suppose it would be make-enum-type plus a bunch of defines, one for each identifier.
2020-11-05T19:56:00Z Zipheir: Agreed, define-enumeration should be straightforward.
2020-11-05T19:56:19Z Zipheir: I wonder about how useful it is, but I would be fine with adding it.
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2020-11-05T20:00:17Z Zipheir: enum-set-constructor is weird, in that it takes a set and returns a set constructor.
2020-11-05T20:00:51Z Zipheir: The whole (r6rs enums) library suffers from the fact that enum universes/types aren't first-class.  We've fixed that, I think.
2020-11-05T20:04:27Z jcowan: Note that record-constructor in R6RS works the same way.
2020-11-05T20:04:49Z jcowan: you can make any number of particular record constructors.
2020-11-05T20:04:49Z Zipheir: Ah, that makes sense.
2020-11-05T20:05:22Z jcowan: I don't know if you've been following the dictionaries pre-SRFI at all, but I have a critical decision to make.
2020-11-05T20:06:43Z Zipheir: What's going on with dictionaries?
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2020-11-05T20:10:29Z jcowan: The current design expects a dictionary implementer to register it using a predicate procedure and a set of between 5 and 28 (I think) operational procedures.  Then each generic operation figures out the matching type predicate and finds the right procedure to call.
2020-11-05T20:10:31Z Zipheir: My thought on 209 is that, if it can be made a superset of (r6rs enums) without "a minor case of serious brain damage", then let it be so.  It saves a R7 vs. R6 war later on.
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2020-11-05T20:11:56Z jcowan: This is quite unlike comparators, where you have to pass in the comparator every time.  The arguments are (a) there is no object you can examine to see which comparator to apply (the left one or the right one?) and (b) multiple comparators can exist on the same types (the "increasing order" vs. "decreasing order" for any type with order.
2020-11-05T20:13:03Z jcowan: (a) definitely does not apply for dictionaries, because all of them take at least one dictionary argument.
2020-11-05T20:13:23Z jcowan: And I can't think of an example for (b), but maybe there is one?
2020-11-05T20:13:42Z jcowan: A trivial case is that () could be an empty alist or an empty plist; currently it's assumed to be an alist.
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2020-11-05T20:14:17Z Zipheir: So far, so good.
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2020-11-05T20:28:07Z bug2000: Reading a bit through r7rs. What should I use if I want similar to macros but with executing? i.e., I want to receive an s-expr and transform it but not execute it.
2020-11-05T20:28:38Z Zipheir: bug2000: A ... macro?  I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
2020-11-05T20:28:56Z Zipheir: Macros transform S-exps but can't "execute" them.
2020-11-05T20:29:30Z bug2000: say I have '(foo a b c) and I want it to become `(a (bar b) c)
2020-11-05T20:29:42Z wasamasa: list processing
2020-11-05T20:29:46Z Zipheir: OK.
2020-11-05T20:29:50Z Zipheir: ^^ Yes.
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2020-11-05T20:29:57Z wasamasa: I like matchable for that
2020-11-05T20:30:12Z Zipheir: Matching plus quasiquotation is very nice for that.
2020-11-05T20:30:16Z bug2000: and then if b itself might be `(foo d e f) then go recursively with it.
2020-11-05T20:30:27Z wasamasa: matchable + recursion
2020-11-05T20:30:31Z wasamasa: it's great
2020-11-05T20:30:52Z wasamasa: all of a sudden you can do what xslt always wanted to
2020-11-05T20:31:07Z bug2000: xslt?
2020-11-05T20:31:25Z Zipheir: (matchable is what CHICKEN calls the Cartwright-Shinn pattern-matcher, which many Schemes provide and is specified in SRFI 204)
2020-11-05T20:31:25Z wasamasa: some things are better left unexplored
2020-11-05T20:31:53Z Zipheir: "Ever hear of something called XSLT?  A beautiful thing which brings joy to the heart!" --Will Byrfd
2020-11-05T20:31:55Z Zipheir: Byrd, even
2020-11-05T20:32:38Z wasamasa: I remember a lisp post though that tried to explain s-expressions by starting from xml
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2020-11-05T20:34:29Z bug2000: If the implementation of my choice doesn't have SRFI 204 can I add it manually?
2020-11-05T20:34:41Z bug2000: (I'm still reading the spec! sorry!)
2020-11-05T20:34:57Z Zipheir: Possibly, it's still in draft, so I'm not sure how ready the sample implementation is.
2020-11-05T20:35:02Z Zipheir: Which Scheme?
2020-11-05T20:35:06Z bug2000: Cyclone
2020-11-05T20:35:13Z Zipheir: Let's see...
2020-11-05T20:35:14Z bug2000: https://justinethier.github.io/cyclone/docs/api/cyclone/match
2020-11-05T20:35:20Z bug2000: might also work I guess. even though it's not portable.
2020-11-05T20:35:31Z Zipheir: It's probably the same system at heart.
2020-11-05T20:35:44Z Zipheir: Yup.
2020-11-05T20:38:08Z bug2000: thanks, I'll check it out
2020-11-05T20:38:14Z Zipheir: np, good luck!
2020-11-05T20:38:20Z jcowan: Note that 204 is *not* exactly any Scheme's installed WCS matcher, as features have been added.  The hope is that these features will be added by other Schemes, or they will switch to the reference implementation.
2020-11-05T20:38:32Z jcowan: SRFI 200 is the least-common-denominator matcher.
2020-11-05T20:38:40Z wasamasa: is there really a need for both srfis
2020-11-05T20:39:07Z jcowan: IMO no, but anyone can submit a SRFI.
2020-11-05T20:39:23Z jcowan: Arthur has the power to stop that but the SRFI process forbids it.
2020-11-05T20:39:28Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-05T20:39:37Z wasamasa: rubic: academics gone wild
2020-11-05T20:39:43Z wasamasa: rudybot: academics gone wild
2020-11-05T20:39:43Z rudybot: wasamasa: go go academics
2020-11-05T20:39:53Z Zipheir: SRFI 200 doesn't include any of the additional matching forms, e.g. match-let, etc.
2020-11-05T20:39:54Z jcowan supports rudybot
2020-11-05T20:40:11Z jcowan: Right, because some of the matchers it tries to cover don't either.
2020-11-05T20:40:18Z jcowan: So they will both be on the ballot.
2020-11-05T20:40:46Z Zipheir: (I suggested it should add them and thus provide an alternative to the SRFI 201 madness, but, no luck.)
2020-11-05T20:41:21Z jcowan: "Do you want a minimal matching spec that works with almost any matcher, or do you want a rich matcher with a portable implementation?"
2020-11-05T20:41:36Z gwatt: yes
2020-11-05T20:41:38Z jcowan: s/that works/that lets you write code that works
2020-11-05T20:42:05Z Zipheir: wasamasa: How is that "academic"?  The status quo in the Lisp world is everyone providing a different, incompatible design.
2020-11-05T20:43:41Z wasamasa: some people like collecting CVEs, other enjoy submitting SRFIs
2020-11-05T20:43:53Z jcowan: We are already going to have two SRFIs for multidimensional arrays on the ballot.  Fortunately, everything in one can (I think) be shimmed onto the other.
2020-11-05T20:44:29Z Zipheir: wasamasa: It would be nice to see some progress toward actual portable Scheme libraries, rather than snarky commentary.
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2020-11-05T20:44:58Z wasamasa: the groundwork done by foof is that indeed
2020-11-05T20:45:40Z Zipheir: Yes.  There are fundamental problems with extending the matcher, though, which jcowan and Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen have some nice ideas for remedying.
2020-11-05T20:45:40Z gwatt: wasamasa: which one? progress toward portable scheme libraries or snarky commentary?
2020-11-05T20:45:53Z Zipheir: Both.
2020-11-05T20:47:51Z Zipheir: jcowan: Oh, did I miss the "critical decision" you're dealing with in the dictionaries pre-SRFI?
2020-11-05T20:48:17Z jcowan: Zipheir: Do you mean that (a) we should convince ourselves that (rnrs enums) shoudl be written on top of 209, or (b) that we should actually write such an implementation of (rnrs enums), or (c) that we should expose all the (rnrs enums) calls in the SRFI?
2020-11-05T20:49:13Z jcowan: Sorry, I got distracted too.  Should we go with registering dictionary types at run time (probably at library load time), or pass in an explicit dictionary type object to each call?
2020-11-05T20:49:44Z Zipheir: jcowan: To the first question: I think (a) is plausible, and easiest.
2020-11-05T20:49:54Z jcowan: Certainly easiest, yes.
2020-11-05T20:50:20Z Zipheir: (c') Expose a subset of the (r6rs enums) forms.
2020-11-05T20:50:57Z jcowan: If there is a convincing argument that there are two ways to treat some data structures as dictionaries, then passing an explicit dictionary type will be needed.  So far there is only the marginal case of (), which could be an alist or a plist.
2020-11-05T20:51:16Z Zipheir: IMO that's not a big deal.
2020-11-05T20:51:29Z jcowan: No.  But if there really is a good case...
2020-11-05T20:51:47Z Zipheir: If that's the only ambiguity, there's no need to pass dictionary types around.
2020-11-05T20:52:16Z jcowan: (analogous to having both < and > based comparators)
2020-11-05T20:52:30Z Zipheir: That's the case I'm wondering about.
2020-11-05T20:53:13Z Zipheir: Are there structures that can be advantageously treated as two different kinds of dictionary?
2020-11-05T20:53:45Z Zipheir: Maybe some weird hash-based trees?
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2020-11-05T20:57:31Z Zipheir: And perhaps first-class dictionary types could be useful.
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2020-11-05T21:31:52Z jcowan: I'm thinking of reverse a-lists.
2020-11-05T21:32:00Z jcowan: ones where the key is in the cdr
2020-11-05T21:42:28Z Zipheir: If there's any doubt, then I think the parameterized approach is just fine.  The dictionary-type arguments could always be closed-over.
2020-11-05T21:44:44Z Zipheir: (define lookup (cut dictionary-lookup my-dict <>))
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2020-11-05T21:56:54Z Zipheir: Err, something like that, obviously there would be more arguments.  A macro could be used to define versions of everything parameterized over a type.
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2020-11-05T22:55:47Z rcrd6502: reading about call/cc here http://phillipwright.info/drafts/continuations.htm in this example (+ 2 (call/cc (lambda (k) (set! handle k) 2))), he doesn't explain how the return value gets modified
2020-11-05T22:56:10Z rcrd6502: what actually happens?
2020-11-05T22:56:39Z rcrd6502: e.g. (handle 6) -> 8
2020-11-05T22:57:06Z rcrd6502: unless that is the express purpose of call/cc
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2020-11-05T23:04:41Z rcrd6502: oh no I see
2020-11-05T23:04:54Z rcrd6502: that return value of 2 never changes
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2020-11-05T23:17:34Z ski: rcrd6502 : the same call to `call/cc' returns again, with a result `8'. the call to `handle' doesn't return
2020-11-05T23:21:35Z ski: rudybot: eval (map (arg/fc) (list 0 1 2 3))
2020-11-05T23:21:35Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 0 0 0)
2020-11-05T23:21:41Z ski: rudybot: eval (reverse (map (arg/fc) (reverse (list 0 1 2 3))))
2020-11-05T23:21:42Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(3 3 3 3)
2020-11-05T23:22:10Z ski: (note that `arg/fc' is defined without mutation. "argument of first call")
2020-11-05T23:29:07Z rcrd6502: ski: I'm not understanding, what do you want to demonstrate?
2020-11-05T23:30:32Z ski: that you can define quite weird functions, like `arg/fc', using `call/cc' (but not using mutation)
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2020-11-05T23:35:48Z rcrd6502: ok, thank you
2020-11-05T23:39:01Z ski: rcrd6502:  eval (let* ((lem (law-of-excluded-middle)) (value? (car lem)) (value-or-continuation (cdr lem))) (if value? (* 2 value-or-continuation) (value-or-continuation 3)))
2020-11-05T23:39:09Z ski: er, sorry
2020-11-05T23:39:15Z ski: rudybot: eval (let* ((lem (law-of-excluded-middle)) (value? (car lem)) (value-or-continuation (cdr lem))) (if value? (* 2 value-or-continuation) (value-or-continuation 3)))
2020-11-05T23:39:15Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 6
2020-11-05T23:39:58Z ski: the call to `(law-of-excluded-middle)' returns twice. first with `value?' being false. next time with `value?' being true
2020-11-05T23:41:30Z ski: it establishes a communication channel. when we pass `3' to the continuation, we jump back and return again, with the value being `3'
2020-11-05T23:42:32Z ski: conceptually, in this case, `(law-of-excluded-middle)' returns either a number, or "not a number" (a lack of a number, interpreted as a continuation, which can be fed a number)
2020-11-05T23:43:35Z ski: (that's why i called it `law-of-excluded-middle', since it's akin to `(or <number> (not <number>))')
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2020-11-05T23:49:15Z Riastradh: jcowan: `ambiguity is resolved up front in PEG grammars' -- that is a bad euphemism for `ambiguity is silently ignored without telling you about the dead rules in your grammar'.
2020-11-05T23:51:20Z Riastradh: Part of the value of a parser _generator_ (and not just monadic parser combinators at runtime) is that it tells you up front, during development, whether anything is badly awry with your grammar.
2020-11-05T23:51:50Z Riastradh: PEG completely throws that away: nah, won't tell you about ambiguity; nah, won't warn you about exponential space usage, just hope it doesn't happen.
2020-11-06T00:00:48Z Zipheir: Taking infinite lookahead for granted makes it seem like a bad basis for a parsing technique.
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2020-11-06T00:06:41Z jcowan: Eh.  My experience in the Lojban community suggests that this is a religious issue.
2020-11-06T00:07:07Z jcowan: Certainly humans don't have problems handling sentences with verbs at the end.
2020-11-06T00:07:27Z jcowan: (to say nothing of massive structural ambiguity)
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2020-11-06T00:15:05Z Zipheir: Hah, funny example.
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2020-11-06T00:17:12Z Zipheir: Requiring one token of lookahead, more or less, seems like one of the things that makes "classic" lojban easily readable.  I have no idea how people start thinking that "improved parser technology" (hah) justifies switching to infinite lookahead, which IMHO makes a language much harder to read.
2020-11-06T00:17:45Z Zipheir: Ahem, nearly *objectively* makes a language harder to read.
2020-11-06T00:18:09Z Zipheir: As for general languages, so for programming languages.
2020-11-06T00:18:18Z Zipheir: Shantih, shantih, shantih.
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2020-11-06T00:25:13Z Riastradh: In unrelated news, MIT Scheme is about 5% faster on aarch64 now.
2020-11-06T00:25:32Z Riastradh: (pretty much across the board -- more or less independent of workload)
2020-11-06T00:26:43Z Zipheir: Nice!
2020-11-06T00:29:21Z Riastradh: (lesson: branch prediction matters; don't screw it up)
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2020-11-06T00:53:15Z jcowan: Lojban does need an infinite amount of lookahead; there is a preparser that aggregates arbitrarily long strings of digits, letters, and tenses, e.g. into a single token for the LALR(1) parser.
2020-11-06T00:54:24Z jcowan: English does this too: the 123289347982387492349872394873549873450923470892394y83450987345th number is 123289347982387492349872394873549873450923470892394y83450987345.
2020-11-06T00:54:40Z jcowan: You don't know ordinals from cardinals until the end.
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2020-11-06T00:55:05Z jcowan: In hindsight we should have adopted the Chinese approach, where the ordinal marker is at the beginning.
2020-11-06T00:55:50Z foof: but that difference is rarely important.  unlike in japanese where you don't know affirmative/negative until the end.
2020-11-06T00:56:21Z jcowan: It's critical to the parser, though
2020-11-06T00:56:31Z Zipheir: jcowan: Yes, hence why I said "more or less".
2020-11-06T00:56:54Z jcowan: 123 and 123rd and 123rdly are quite different grammatically
2020-11-06T00:57:07Z Zipheir: jcowan: I'm not super familiar with the "lojban preprocessor", although I've enjoyed hacking around with your version of the parser.
2020-11-06T00:57:33Z jcowan: It's the standalone C code in my parser
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2020-11-06T02:34:46Z lockywolf_: English is nice in that cardinals and ordinals don't decline.
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2020-11-06T05:08:58Z lockywolf_: https://lockywolf.wordpress.com/2020/11/06/let-us-discuss-srfi-216-sicp-prerequisites/
2020-11-06T05:09:10Z lockywolf_: Some PR about SRFI 216.
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2020-11-06T07:44:23Z erkin: I don't like that I can't ask ordinal questions in English.
2020-11-06T07:45:12Z erkin: There's no numeric determiner other than 'how many' and such.
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2020-11-06T07:46:29Z erkin: There's a prank-ish thing here that you ask someone who claims to be well-versed in English to translate a sentence into English and they get stumped immediately. It's something like "What-numberth American president is Obama?"
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2020-11-06T07:47:03Z erkin: Turns out you can only ask it like "What is Obama's presidential number?" and you need similar ad hoc solutions for other cases.
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2020-11-06T07:49:48Z lortabac: erkin: to be honest that's an uncommon feature, the only language I know that allows this is Turkish
2020-11-06T07:49:57Z erkin: Wow, really?
2020-11-06T07:50:11Z amirouche: It does not exists in french
2020-11-06T07:50:20Z erkin: I never considered that actually... The language is question *is* Turkish.
2020-11-06T07:50:53Z lortabac: :)
2020-11-06T07:50:57Z wasamasa: German has it
2020-11-06T07:52:16Z erkin: How would you say that sentence in German?
2020-11-06T07:52:25Z foof: it's easy to ask in japanese
2020-11-06T07:54:09Z erkin: I guess 何番目 covers it.
2020-11-06T07:54:15Z foof: yeah
2020-11-06T07:54:18Z lortabac: I find it surprising that so many languages don't have this construct, interesting to know that German and Japanese allow it
2020-11-06T07:54:53Z erkin: I think Lojban has it too.
2020-11-06T07:55:04Z aeth: you can ask the question to a programmer in a not quite correct way that they'd understand
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2020-11-06T07:55:07Z aeth: like e.g. nth
2020-11-06T07:55:15Z aeth: nth president?
2020-11-06T07:55:50Z wasamasa: erkin: the word you're looking for is "wievielter"
2020-11-06T07:56:30Z erkin: Wow, it's a real word. I never came across it before. Amazing.
2020-11-06T07:56:50Z erkin: Oh my god, the example sentence on Wiktionary: "Der wievielte US-Präsident war Barack Obama?"
2020-11-06T07:56:56Z wasamasa: yes exactly
2020-11-06T07:57:00Z wasamasa: :D
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2020-11-06T08:00:54Z foof: For what n is Obama the nth president?
2020-11-06T08:01:36Z jobol: amirouche, french word combientième matches erkin requirement
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2020-11-06T08:06:38Z amirouche: jobol: yes
2020-11-06T08:06:49Z amirouche: jobol: not sure it is a dictionary word
2020-11-06T08:08:10Z jobol: amirouche, checked, it is
2020-11-06T08:11:42Z gproto23: hey guys
2020-11-06T08:11:59Z foof: hey guy
2020-11-06T08:13:08Z gproto23: @foof hey man how is it going?
2020-11-06T08:17:02Z foof: baffled that hundreds of millions of people could vote for trump
2020-11-06T08:23:06Z jobol: foof, and what about wars?
2020-11-06T08:25:15Z ecraven: wouldn't people understand "the how manyest president" fine? even if it isn't Queen's
2020-11-06T08:25:17Z ecraven: English
2020-11-06T08:28:27Z foof: jobol: touche, I guess people are pretty awful all around
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2020-11-06T08:29:53Z gproto23: anyone here writing projects usually in lisp?
2020-11-06T08:32:21Z foof: no, this is a straight-up javascript channel, we just call it #scheme so people don't bother us
2020-11-06T08:32:30Z wasamasa: lol
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2020-11-06T08:36:09Z gproto23: foof oh sorry man :(
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2020-11-06T08:38:40Z gproto23: i just asked for wanna know anyone here using lisp as usual development language.
2020-11-06T08:40:55Z wasamasa: ask your actual question
2020-11-06T08:41:15Z wasamasa: that tiptoeing is going nowhere and makes you look like a certain news group troll
2020-11-06T08:42:21Z ecraven: gproto23: I'm writing many things in Scheme, sometimes paid, mostly just for private fun
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2020-11-06T08:53:52Z gproto23: wasamasa ah sorry for that.. i am new here at irc and beginner lisp learner. ecraven i am just curious that do programmers who write lisp face difficulties when writing programs compared to other languages. A friend of mine tells me that the lisp is no longer used because of the new programming paradigm. Is there really a big difference in real world projects compared to other languages? Thanks
2020-11-06T08:54:36Z ecraven: gproto23: that question cannot be answered shortly. also "lisp" is not any one language.
2020-11-06T08:54:49Z wasamasa: yeah, it's based on a false premise
2020-11-06T08:55:00Z wasamasa: people also love to assume there's a single reason for something
2020-11-06T08:56:32Z wasamasa: for starters, what's a "real world project"?
2020-11-06T08:57:30Z amirouche: real world project is broken, half-baked solution _that_ makes money for a few people.
2020-11-06T08:57:36Z erkin: gproto23: Lisp is a very broad language family. Scheme is the most popularly used Lisp after Clojure and Common Lisp. It's difficult to speak broadly for all Lisps about something like this, as they have completely different ecosystems, communities and approaches.
2020-11-06T08:57:42Z ecraven: for me, I just love Scheme, so I'm trying to use it as much as I can. that means writing many libraries myself (due to choice of implementation, other implementations have many more libraries), but that's ok, I get to understand many things
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2020-11-06T08:59:32Z gproto23: amirouche agreed
2020-11-06T08:59:34Z erkin: It's not very popular in the industry (to say the least) and those who use it in industry use it in specific, isolated areas. It's very popular in academia though.
2020-11-06T09:00:24Z ecraven: well, "industry" mostly uses php and java
2020-11-06T09:00:34Z ecraven: (and of course c/++)
2020-11-06T09:00:50Z wasamasa: don't forget about C# and JS
2020-11-06T09:00:59Z erkin: You probably won't come across any job listings for Scheme developers. ;-)
2020-11-06T09:01:16Z lortabac: is there some specific domain in which Scheme is used industrially?
2020-11-06T09:01:21Z ecraven: wasamasa: is c# that widely used? I'm avoiding windows as much as I can, so I wouldn't know
2020-11-06T09:01:31Z wasamasa: in business, yes
2020-11-06T09:01:34Z gproto23: erkin exactly truths
2020-11-06T09:01:40Z erkin: lortabac: Adding a scripting language to existing programs and for DSLs, from what I can tell.
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2020-11-06T09:02:05Z erkin: Also in scientific computing due to Guix, although I don't know much about that specific industry.
2020-11-06T09:02:11Z amirouche: lortabac: yes, but it is not clear to me what they do, I think they draw PCB
2020-11-06T09:02:22Z ecraven: some implementations are *really* fast, so they could well be used instead of e.g. python
2020-11-06T09:02:46Z amirouche: very very fast :)
2020-11-06T09:02:52Z erkin: A company just embeds some Scheme in the guts of a program and don't talk about it.
2020-11-06T09:03:13Z erkin: Like the ad hoc Scheme implementation used for sandboxing in iOS.
2020-11-06T09:03:26Z erkin: I think it's present in macOS too.
2020-11-06T09:03:57Z erkin: Startups seem to favour Racket and Kawa in particular.
2020-11-06T09:05:50Z lortabac: what resources would you suggest to someone who already has programming experience? I can already read some basic Scheme (given enough time to count the parentheses :D ), I'm interested in the most "unusual" features
2020-11-06T09:05:57Z erkin: There's this list for CL and Scheme: https://common-lisp.net/lisp-companies
2020-11-06T09:07:00Z lortabac: thanks erkin
2020-11-06T09:07:20Z erkin: Noo, that was for the previous discussion.
2020-11-06T09:07:28Z amirouche: lortabac: what do you want to read?
2020-11-06T09:07:36Z lortabac: erkin: yes but it's interesting anyway :)
2020-11-06T09:07:37Z ecraven: lortabac: use a proper editor, then you won't need to even look at the parentheses
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2020-11-06T09:07:47Z erkin: I maintain a list of Scheme books, in case you're interested in browsing them: https://erkin.party/scheme/bibliography/
2020-11-06T09:08:48Z lortabac: is there some vim/neovim plugin for Scheme? I'd rather not change editor
2020-11-06T09:09:43Z ecraven: google "vim lisp"
2020-11-06T09:09:46Z erkin: Conjure aims to be a generic plugin for all Lisps: https://github.com/Olical/conjure
2020-11-06T09:09:49Z ecraven: many different approaches
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2020-11-06T09:10:05Z erkin: But I think it only supports Racket for the time being.
2020-11-06T09:17:57Z lortabac: Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days seems a good way to start
2020-11-06T09:18:19Z wasamasa: it needs an update to racket though
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2020-11-06T09:44:12Z lockywolf: gproto23, clojure is quite often used
2020-11-06T09:44:17Z lockywolf: and clojurescript
2020-11-06T09:44:58Z lockywolf: If you want to do "just any Lisp", clojure is your best bet.
2020-11-06T09:45:25Z lockywolf: also, there is core.logic, so you can have the Reasoned Schemer as well.
2020-11-06T09:45:50Z lockywolf: I know one production usage of IronScheme in a bank
2020-11-06T09:46:11Z wasamasa: fun
2020-11-06T09:49:36Z lockywolf: better than nothing
2020-11-06T09:50:28Z lockywolf: maybe someone (not me) will write a SICP-ready IDE for Emacs, like DrRacket
2020-11-06T09:50:50Z wasamasa: have you looked at the existing racket packages?
2020-11-06T09:50:59Z lockywolf: me?
2020-11-06T09:51:15Z lockywolf: not really, I'm not into Racket
2020-11-06T09:51:25Z lockywolf: but the ide is not bad
2020-11-06T09:51:38Z wasamasa: I recall it supports inline images
2020-11-06T09:51:54Z wasamasa: https://github.com/greghendershott/racket-mode
2020-11-06T09:51:57Z lockywolf: it does
2020-11-06T09:52:23Z lockywolf: I guess
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2020-11-06T09:56:49Z lockywolf: Is HTDP doable in Scheme?
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2020-11-06T10:06:46Z gproto23: luckywolf i will keep this in my mind.. thanks for suggesting. but racket looks more appropriate for newbies. i think clojure is more mid-hard level dialect in lisp family. am i wrong?
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2020-11-06T10:08:26Z wasamasa: for clojure/clojurescript you need basic familiarity with java/JS
2020-11-06T10:17:09Z gproto23: typo:luckywolf/lockywolf
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2020-11-06T10:17:34Z gproto23: wasamasa i did not know that interesting..
2020-11-06T10:18:17Z lockywolf: scheme is no newbie-friendly in any sense of the word
2020-11-06T10:18:48Z lockywolf: choose the dialect that fits the textbook of your liking
2020-11-06T10:21:13Z gproto23: i was started reading htdp
2020-11-06T10:26:26Z erkin: I'd say Racket is fairly newbie friendly.
2020-11-06T10:28:55Z gproto23: yes erkin, documentation is tremendously perfect
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2020-11-06T10:33:29Z erkin: That's a bit of an overstatement for less commonly used parts of libraries but I agree that it's very good. :-P
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2020-11-06T13:29:40Z wasamasa: sad: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/
2020-11-06T13:29:50Z wasamasa: > Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 111 in /home/ltu/www/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 31
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2020-11-06T14:28:46Z erkin: rip
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2020-11-06T17:18:33Z mixedCase: Hey everyone. I'm new to Lisps in general and wanted to know if there's any code formatter a-la Prettier that provides a fairly deterministic result. I'm using vim-sexp and tried scmindent but neither go that far. Is there something like it or at least a style guide somewhere that people go by?
2020-11-06T17:19:10Z Riastradh: I use Emacs and C-M-q.
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2020-11-06T17:24:09Z mixedCase: Riastradh: I think that just does indentation like vim-sexp and scmindent, right? For example, it doesn't handle where to put your ending brackets in conds and so on.
2020-11-06T17:24:58Z wasamasa: there is no such thing
2020-11-06T17:25:12Z wasamasa: pretty-printers mostly exist for formatting data
2020-11-06T17:25:27Z Riastradh: mixedCase: Ending brackets all go together.
2020-11-06T17:25:29Z wasamasa: and really, it's not hard to just hit enter whenever appropriate and let emacs auto-indent
2020-11-06T17:26:10Z Riastradh: mixedCase: No idea about vim-sexp or scmindent -- I don't use vim at all.
2020-11-06T17:26:52Z Riastradh: mixedCase: C-M-q in Emacs doesn't insert any line breaks, if that's what you're asking.  There are code pretty-printers -- e.g., pp in MIT Scheme -- but I don't use them for writing code.
2020-11-06T17:28:22Z erkin: I don't think there's an autoformatter for any Lisp (other than Clojure, of course, but I think they're superfluous), because the syntax is so simple that you only need to worry about indentation.
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2020-11-06T17:28:59Z wasamasa: some do exist
2020-11-06T17:29:11Z wasamasa: for example picolisp has paid attention to make indentation trivial to figure out
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2020-11-06T17:29:26Z mixedCase: wasamasa: There are quite a few formatters for code nowadays. I think Go popularized them a bit since it ships with one and it's very practical not to worry about formatting, but I gather it's true that for sexps this is more superflous of an issue.
2020-11-06T17:29:27Z wasamasa: there's grinders used for old lisp manuals which mostly serve to automatically generate listings
2020-11-06T17:29:43Z erkin: Just keep all right-parens together, don't put a space after a left-paren and before a right-paren, enter linebreaks wherever necessary and let Emacs (or what have you) handle indentation.
2020-11-06T17:29:48Z wasamasa: like from a running system that doesn't keep the sexp including whitespace intact
2020-11-06T17:30:06Z mixedCase: Riastradh: I tried Chez Scheme's pretty-file function and it deleted comments, any clue if that one handles them?
2020-11-06T17:30:13Z wasamasa: nils holm shows an example for a simple grinder
2020-11-06T17:30:18Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme's pretty-printer does not preserve comments.
2020-11-06T17:30:35Z wasamasa: this crazy guy wrote his own and it cannot handle let: https://gitlab.com/ideasman42/emacs-elisp-autofmt
2020-11-06T17:30:48Z erkin: I think the grinder is only meant for identation.
2020-11-06T17:30:59Z Riastradh: I also use paredit, which generally keeps things reasonably indented (but also avoids gratuitously changing any manual indentation you're not editing).
2020-11-06T17:31:03Z erkin: mixedCase: Pretty printers aren't meant for formatting code but data.
2020-11-06T17:31:07Z wasamasa: or keep parens together
2020-11-06T17:31:21Z Riastradh: erkin: MIT Scheme's *pp-default-as-code?* would disagree
2020-11-06T17:31:30Z erkin: Huh
2020-11-06T17:31:46Z mixedCase: erkin: Check https://prettier.io/ or gofmt. It's very hard not to use one after you get used to them.
2020-11-06T17:31:59Z wasamasa: mixedCase: again, you're advocating for different language ecosystems
2020-11-06T17:32:29Z mixedCase: wasamasa: how come?
2020-11-06T17:32:35Z erkin: mixedCase: Lisp syntax is much *much* simpler than Go syntax or any other language on there.
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2020-11-06T17:33:19Z wasamasa: proper pretty-printing is a hard problem to solve
2020-11-06T17:33:42Z Riastradh: erkin: Isn't that an argument that an autoformatter should be much easier to write for Lisp?
2020-11-06T17:34:04Z wasamasa: it's also an argument that there isn't much of a need for them
2020-11-06T17:34:08Z erkin: I'd say it's an argument that it's a waste of time since writing an autoformatter at all comes with a lot of effort overhead.
2020-11-06T17:34:14Z wasamasa: http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/09/08/the-hardest-program-ive-ever-written/
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2020-11-06T17:34:20Z erkin: If I do a lot of copy-paste in my code, I just ask Emacs to reindent the buffer.
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2020-11-06T17:34:46Z mixedCase: In any case y'all have a good point, keeping my ending parens together and letting the autoindenter do its thing will probably cover the overwhelming majority of what I'm worried about.
2020-11-06T17:34:53Z wasamasa: I've found similar stuff about a clojure pretty printer
2020-11-06T17:35:19Z erkin: I also try to keep lines below 80 columns and enter line breaks in reasonable points.
2020-11-06T17:35:36Z wasamasa: IIRC this one: https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp#fast
2020-11-06T17:39:11Z erkin: Honestly, I'd say it's easier to just take a look at some existing code and you'll more or less grasp the style. There are tiny differences, like the Picolisp convention of leaving a single space before a right-paren if it's not on the same line as its corresponding left-paren is sometimes used by Schemers too.
2020-11-06T17:40:05Z erkin: There are just informal conventions like "it's ugly to put both if branches on the same line unless they're on the same line as the clause as well".
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2020-11-06T17:41:29Z mixedCase: erkin: Any recommendations on codebases to read? My only source of nontrivial Scheme is the Idris code generator :/
2020-11-06T17:41:31Z erkin: Riastradh here maintains a very nice style guide, although only a minor portion of it would be of use to an autoformatter: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
2020-11-06T17:42:08Z mixedCase: erkin: Oooh that looks like exactly what I need! Thank you!
2020-11-06T17:42:19Z erkin: Thank Riastradh :-)
2020-11-06T17:42:44Z mixedCase: Thank you to everyone who chimed in :)
2020-11-06T17:44:48Z wasamasa: a proper lisp autoformatter could be an interesting challenge to write of course
2020-11-06T17:45:22Z wasamasa: but maybe not as the first thing in your lisp career
2020-11-06T17:45:25Z ski: mixedCase : in case it'd be interesting, here's a style guide that someone wrote, <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt> ..
2020-11-06T17:45:45Z erkin: hehe
2020-11-06T17:46:18Z erkin: mixedCase: You can take a look at the source code of an implementation.
2020-11-06T17:46:44Z erkin: For example https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/lib/chibi/math/prime.scm
2020-11-06T17:47:45Z mixedCase: wasamasa: I think I fucked up even further. My first project in Scheme is an M:N threading runtime.
2020-11-06T17:48:00Z erkin: ouch
2020-11-06T17:48:02Z erkin: Why though?
2020-11-06T17:50:18Z ski: (also #paredit : <https://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el>,<https://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.html>,<https://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit/>. dunno how up-to-date <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/paredit-latex.pdf>,<https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/paredit/> are)
2020-11-06T17:50:19Z mixedCase: Well the main compiler backend for Idris 2 compiles to Chez, and currently it has little concurrency support. I want to write an HTTP server for it so I have to bite this bullet first.
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2020-11-06T17:51:23Z mixedCase: It's a well documented problem and Scheme continuations combined with Chez' Engines look to make a great fit for making the coroutines click.
2020-11-06T17:51:36Z Riastradh: erkin: (`maintains' may not be entirely accurate)
2020-11-06T17:51:51Z erkin: ;-P
2020-11-06T17:52:08Z ski . o O ( "unmaintains" ? )
2020-11-06T17:52:08Z erkin: Have you looked at existing HTTP servers for Chez?
2020-11-06T17:52:30Z Riastradh: (don't think I've touched it in nearly a decade, and that was only to slap a Creative Commons licence on it)
2020-11-06T17:53:05Z erkin: Fortunately, nothing much changed since then.
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2020-11-06T17:53:40Z erkin: Though I'd love to see some of the 'to be written' bullet points come into being.
2020-11-06T17:54:01Z Riastradh: heh
2020-11-06T17:54:04Z Riastradh: don't hold your breath
2020-11-06T17:54:21Z erkin: Okay okay
2020-11-06T17:54:28Z mixedCase: erkin: Yes, theres Igropyr which looks great, but it's using libuv and a single main thread. There's a new pretty efficient concurrency primitive in Linux called io_uring which would be hard to retrofit into libuv, so might as well try doing something from the ground up which provides both facilities in the same design.
2020-11-06T17:55:31Z mixedCase: IO concurrency primitive* (although they're trying to make it into a general async syscall provider)
2020-11-06T17:55:48Z erkin: That does sound like a very useful idea indeed.
2020-11-06T17:57:00Z erkin: You might want to start small to internalise Scheme idioms first.
2020-11-06T18:03:37Z mixedCase: Oh it's a given I will be writing some shitty Scheme. At least I got over the functional hump a few years ago and am digging the docs on scheme.com
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2020-11-06T18:05:49Z erkin: Skimming through TSPL would probably help.
2020-11-06T18:07:48Z mixedCase: erkin: That I've been doing :) It's on the Kindle and that's part of what I meant on scheme.com, the full thing is hosted there, along with the Chez specific parts in a separate section. It's a great reference
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2020-11-06T18:17:05Z amirouche: mixedCase: how M:N is related to a webserver?
2020-11-06T18:21:42Z Riastradh: Web server oughta be embarrassingly parallelizable for the most part; why not just use I/O multiplexing in multiple processes and forget native threads altogether?
2020-11-06T18:24:01Z amirouche: mixedCase: I have some guile code if you want to read stuff
2020-11-06T18:24:32Z amirouche: Riastradh: because it will cost more memory.
2020-11-06T18:24:48Z Riastradh: Why do you say that?  How much more memory do you mean?
2020-11-06T18:25:15Z amirouche: I do not know how much more.
2020-11-06T18:26:11Z Riastradh: Sure, there'll be some overhead proportional to the number of processes, but if you have (say) one process per CPU core, surely that's not a serious issue.
2020-11-06T18:28:23Z amirouche: The other small problem is that it requires some machinery to do i/o multiplexing or even if you do not share the address and bind different ports, you still need some way to spawn the different processus.
2020-11-06T18:28:47Z amirouche: I mean, what will start the mutiple processus?
2020-11-06T18:29:25Z Riastradh: Start worker processes up front (or dynamically create and destroy them according to load).
2020-11-06T18:29:39Z Riastradh: Each one waits in accept(2) for a connection.
2020-11-06T18:29:49Z Riastradh: OS passes each connection on to whatever the next waiting worker process is.
2020-11-06T18:30:21Z amirouche: each processus requires its own systemd (or whatever) configuration.
2020-11-06T18:30:26Z Riastradh: ???
2020-11-06T18:31:03Z amirouche: you need something to start/restart the processus anyway
2020-11-06T18:31:21Z Riastradh: Sure, you have a master process that forks.
2020-11-06T18:31:40Z amirouche: Then I do not see how it is better than threads.
2020-11-06T18:32:37Z Riastradh: don't need to design a new N:M thread system, don't need to worry about concurrency within a shared address space, don't need to pay cost of userland preemption and thread-switching
2020-11-06T18:33:16Z Zipheir: The kernel basically does everything for you with forking.
2020-11-06T18:33:26Z mixedCase: amirouche: It's not related directly to web servers; epoll/io_uring handle sockets just fine. It's just that the last couple of projects I've worked on had to do some crunching on requests and I *really liked* not caring about how many Ms I spawned.
2020-11-06T18:34:06Z amirouche: mixedCase: those are virtual threads or green threads
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2020-11-06T18:35:05Z mixedCase: amirouche: Exactly. Those are the Ms, which get multiplexed onto real threads (Ns).
2020-11-06T18:35:23Z Zipheir: Sounds hairy.
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2020-11-06T18:35:50Z amirouche: Riastradh: I am not sure what is the thing about n:m threads, how they relate to webserver, there is indeed a problem where you can not add an infinite amount green threads, but that can be handled by monitoring the load and load balancing to multiple machines.
2020-11-06T18:36:00Z amirouche: mixedCase: fwiw, guile-fibers does it.
2020-11-06T18:36:15Z amirouche: or try to, never tested the multiple threads support.
2020-11-06T18:38:00Z erkin: Very few things actually take advantage of Chez's thread engines.
2020-11-06T18:38:13Z Zipheir: Handling requests with forked handlers actually works just fine if you don't expect millions of requests.  Of course, modern web browsers break that model.
2020-11-06T18:38:18Z amirouche: Riastradh: user-land preemption is a thing when the green threads are NOT cooperative, in a cooperative event-loop there is no preemption and thread switching cost almost nothing.
2020-11-06T18:38:37Z erkin: Swish uses libuv and is thread-unsafe. Loko takes the fibers approach from Guile.
2020-11-06T18:39:05Z erkin: I think only Racket eventually aims to have native threads down the line.
2020-11-06T18:39:20Z Riastradh: amirouche: yes, that's what I meant by just using I/O multiplexing (in multiple processes).
2020-11-06T18:39:28Z mixedCase: amirouche: Seems like it! Pity the licensing doesn't match what I want to hopefully release this one as, means I can't read the code.
2020-11-06T18:39:28Z erkin: So I'd interested in seeing something that makes use of Chez native threads.
2020-11-06T18:40:02Z amirouche: mixedCase: read the book!
2020-11-06T18:40:02Z erkin: Loko is built on Chez and does fibers but it's AGPL. :-P
2020-11-06T18:41:02Z amirouche: mixedCase: anyway, you need an event-loop to go that route
2020-11-06T18:43:54Z amirouche: mixedCase: I have single thread event loop, if you want to look at it
2020-11-06T18:43:57Z amirouche: mixedCase: for chez
2020-11-06T18:44:39Z mixedCase: amirouche: Yes, I've already started an event loop design based on a mixture of Go's and Tokio for Rust, but accounting for the use of io_uring for all IO instead of a dedicated epoll thread for just networking.
2020-11-06T18:44:44Z mixedCase: amirouche: Definitely interested!
2020-11-06T18:44:49Z amirouche: mixedCase: https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme/blob/master/src/arew/network/untangle.scm
2020-11-06T18:45:24Z erkin: mixedCase: In any case, if you make something like this, I believe Idris, Racket and Loko will be able to use it too, with some wrappers and shims.
2020-11-06T18:45:25Z amirouche: for trivial use cases it works :>
2020-11-06T18:45:38Z mixedCase: amirouche: Thanks, will take a look later once I recaffeinate
2020-11-06T18:45:39Z erkin: And Arew too :-)
2020-11-06T18:45:47Z amirouche: sure :)
2020-11-06T18:48:06Z Riastradh: Between arew, amirouche, zig, and...I think there was one another name, amz3?, how many different people are there?  I got kind of confused by the nomenclature.
2020-11-06T18:49:06Z Zipheir: At least one of those is also a Scheme implementation.
2020-11-06T18:49:17Z amirouche: sorry!
2020-11-06T18:49:19Z erkin: And one of them is an unrelated programming language. ;-P
2020-11-06T18:49:40Z Zipheir: Names are a fluid thing on the Internet.
2020-11-06T18:49:53Z erkin: That's true.
2020-11-06T18:50:49Z erkin: FWIW I changed my name but still use my old name on IRC, GitHub, my website etc because people know me as erkin.
2020-11-06T18:51:47Z Riastradh: ...maybe I shouldn't have dredged up changed names, sorry.
2020-11-06T18:51:53Z amirouche: no worries
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2020-11-06T18:55:33Z Zipheir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Names ... and other dangers.
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2020-11-06T19:17:24Z jcowan: That style of web server is what Apache calls "preforking".
2020-11-06T19:20:03Z jcowan: http://www.masterraghu.com/subjects/np/introduction/unix_network_programming_v1.3/ch30lev1sec6.html is a good place to start: it keeps you informed of all the considerations the master process has to keep track of.
2020-11-06T19:20:27Z jcowan: The trick is to fork new children as (or better yet shortly before) you need them.
2020-11-06T19:28:49Z Zipheir: That's a really good book.  Stevens's works are bibles of UNIX programming.
2020-11-06T19:29:44Z jcowan: Indeed.  It could stand a few supplements now for network programming in NonC as well.
2020-11-06T19:31:14Z Riastradh: what is `NonC'
2020-11-06T19:32:19Z Zipheir: Presumably the complement of {C}.
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2020-11-06T21:48:45Z jcowan: Riastradh: Just so, like the German and Dutch singular nouns Ausland/uitland, which means "Everywhere but Germany/the Netherlands, considered as a single entity."  No real English translation.
2020-11-06T21:49:18Z jcowan: you have to paraphrase with "in foreign countries" or the like
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2020-11-06T21:54:16Z jcowan: or just "abroad".
2020-11-06T21:54:34Z jcowan: English used to have this word, and still has "outlandish" which no loonger means "foreign" but "weird, strange, unheard-of"
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2020-11-06T22:36:05Z wasamasa: seems scheme in gimp is moving to the backseat: https://www.gimp.org/news/2020/11/06/gimp-2-99-2-released/
2020-11-06T22:36:24Z wasamasa: > though there is supposedly GObject Introspecting scheme bindings, but we haven’t tested any yet
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2020-11-06T22:55:58Z jcowan: That's been coming for a long time.
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2020-11-06T22:56:47Z jcowan: I suppose Elisp fanatics will be saying "See, that's what happens when you support more than one customization language."
2020-11-06T22:57:22Z wasamasa: you'd think they'd test them regardless
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2020-11-06T23:04:57Z laertus: is the format of r7rs .sld files documented anywhere?
2020-11-06T23:11:04Z gwatt: laertus: it should be the (define-library ...) form
2020-11-06T23:11:16Z laertus: ah, ok.. thank you
2020-11-06T23:12:50Z gwatt: However, different schemes will do things differently. Some may not support .sld by default
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2020-11-06T23:22:04Z laertus nods
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2020-11-07T05:21:26Z lockywolf: rudybot, ping
2020-11-07T05:21:26Z rudybot: lockywolf: pong
2020-11-07T05:22:02Z lockywolf being annoying and inviting everyone to review SRFI-216
2020-11-07T05:22:24Z lockywolf: rudybot, could you review my SRFI?
2020-11-07T05:22:30Z rudybot: lockywolf: my functor/idiom/monad pre-SRFI is ready for review at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ContextsCowan.md
2020-11-07T05:22:38Z lockywolf: ah... sorry
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2020-11-07T05:38:11Z Zipheir: rudybot being jcowanbot for a minute there.
2020-11-07T05:38:37Z Zipheir: lockywolf: Nice work on 216.  I'll try to take a closer look soon.
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2020-11-07T05:42:46Z lockywolf: I don't see why bots should be discriminated against in producing the SRFI process.
2020-11-07T05:43:42Z lockywolf: Zipheir, thank you.
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2020-11-07T07:58:49Z amirouche: how do you figure which test is failing with SRFI-64? At the moment, I have the following output with chez-srfi: https://hastebin.com/yaxidutezi.shell
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2020-11-07T15:14:32Z jcowan: amirouche: You need to give your tests names (optional first argument, a string works well).
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2020-11-07T19:33:28Z amirouche: I will try that. Thanks!
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2020-11-07T20:11:43Z guestwtf: guys
2020-11-07T20:11:52Z guestwtf: anyone here using chicken scheme on win32
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2020-11-07T20:54:45Z mixedCase: Uhhh a bit of a noob question but I'm having an awful time trying to locate an answer. Inside a cond test expression, I want to call a function binding its result to a name, and then be able to use that binding in the test expression as well as the body. It is obvious to me how to do this in a nested-if, but not at all in a cond.
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2020-11-07T21:07:31Z Zipheir: mixedCase: Can you paste an example?
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2020-11-07T21:09:19Z Zipheir: Something like (cond ((let ((x (proc))) x)) => (lambda (x) ...)) ...) ?
2020-11-07T21:09:44Z Zipheir: (and-let* is actually a better fit there.)
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2020-11-07T21:14:54Z mixedCase: Zipheir: Yes, that seems like what I need, I'm getting invalid syntax when trying it, however
2020-11-07T21:16:35Z Zipheir: Take a look at cond-arrow syntax and and-let*.  I have to run, but I'll take a look at what you've got when I return.
2020-11-07T21:16:46Z mixedCase: Thanks, will do
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2020-11-07T21:29:30Z mixedCase: Zipheir: Found it, there was just an extra closing parenthesis before the arrow. and-let* seems to be an MIT Scheme thing. Pity as it looks pretty useful, it reminds me of using do-notation for the Maybe monad.
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2020-11-07T22:47:21Z jcowan: mixedCase: No, let* is standard since R4RS.
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2020-11-07T22:55:08Z mixedCase: jcowan: Not let*, and-let*. https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/stable/mit-scheme-ref/and_002dlet_002a-_0028SRFI-2_0029.html
2020-11-07T22:55:08Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/owzlhS1vLW
2020-11-07T22:55:35Z jcowan: sorry I missed the hyphen. But SRFI 2 support is not unusual either.
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2020-11-08T00:13:55Z Zipheir: mixedCase: Glad you figured it out.  and-let* is pretty commonly available, and you can always grab the (recently added) syntax-rules version from the SRFI repo if your Scheme lacks it.
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2020-11-08T07:57:02Z lockywolf: why didn't (identifier-syntax) get its way into the r7rs?
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2020-11-08T08:34:20Z lockywolf: r6rs is a kinda weird standard...
2020-11-08T08:34:35Z lockywolf: unschemy?
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2020-11-08T08:56:20Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-11-08T12:27:28Z lockywolf: r6rs records do not allow arbitrary setters/getters, do they?
2020-11-08T12:28:47Z amirouche: what "aritrary setters/getters" mean?
2020-11-08T12:29:53Z lockywolf: (matrix-rank-set! m r) destructively updates (matrix-body m)
2020-11-08T12:31:26Z lockywolf: I'm solving tspl-12.1
2020-11-08T12:33:24Z mdhughes: You can define a custom name for the generated setter, and provide your own with the expected name.
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2020-11-08T12:33:51Z mdhughes: I often do that to wrap them in pre/post conditions.
2020-11-08T12:33:52Z lockywolf: you mean, expected different name?
2020-11-08T12:34:44Z mdhughes: Define record foo, field bar, with accessors foo-bar and %foo-bar-set!, then define your own foo-bar-set!
2020-11-08T12:34:51Z lockywolf: like, rename setter to matrix-bode-aux-set!, and provide my own matrix-body-set!
2020-11-08T12:35:00Z lockywolf: ah, ok
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2020-11-08T12:53:48Z wasamasa: lol, found another one: https://github.com/jcubic/lips
2020-11-08T12:53:51Z wasamasa: there's no end to them!
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2020-11-08T13:01:10Z lockywolf: chez doesn't support generic functions?
2020-11-08T13:07:04Z lockywolf: defgeneric, or just (putl
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2020-11-08T14:01:20Z erkin: I don't think it does.
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2020-11-08T14:02:07Z erkin: You could write some macros to do it with compile-time dispatch.
2020-11-08T14:07:23Z mdhughes: Other than the numerical tower, who does?
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2020-11-08T15:43:27Z lockywolf: emacs lisp does :)
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2020-11-08T16:17:30Z bug2000: Hi. So I question my choice of scheme impl. The errors are horrible and I can't figure how to debug things.
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2020-11-08T16:19:13Z bug2000: Another question, is there a comparison function for symbols & lists? I want to sort them. I don't care about the order as long as it is consistent.
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2020-11-08T16:23:25Z jcowan: lockywolf: Identifier syntax was never seriously considered: I believe it was tarred with the same brush as syntax-case, though it is independent of it.  In addition, some people don't like the idea that (cons x y) might do significant computation before the cons, and I have a great deal of sympathy for this point of view.  It's certainly a feature easy to abused.
2020-11-08T16:23:28Z jcowan: abuse, even
2020-11-08T16:24:37Z jcowan: If MN-W's extension of syntax-rules to accept single-identifier patterns had been put forward at the time (that does only the simple version, not the generalized set! version) it might have passed, though that is far from certain.
2020-11-08T16:26:00Z wasamasa: bug2000: which one?
2020-11-08T16:26:45Z wasamasa: bug2000: I'd write a comparator helper function and pass it some key argument to make the object sortable
2020-11-08T16:26:53Z wasamasa: bug2000: like symbol->string for symbols
2020-11-08T16:27:01Z wasamasa: bug2000: and for lists, you better think up some useful metric
2020-11-08T16:27:05Z wasamasa: bug2000: be it length or whatever
2020-11-08T16:27:59Z bug2000: Yeah, I think the sort won't go well. I guess I need to go back to reading the spec. I stopped midway and went programming.
2020-11-08T16:28:12Z bug2000: wasamasa, Using cyclone at the moment.
2020-11-08T16:28:19Z wasamasa: oh wow
2020-11-08T16:28:24Z wasamasa: I expected guile or chibi
2020-11-08T16:28:31Z wasamasa: but yes, cyclone has sharp edges
2020-11-08T16:28:49Z wasamasa: I found it interesting to study, using not so much
2020-11-08T16:31:05Z bug2000: wasamasa, So what should I use? I do prefer to be able to easily compile things.
2020-11-08T16:31:23Z wasamasa: I like CHICKEN for that
2020-11-08T16:31:24Z bug2000: wasamasa, also, I'd like to learn a sane work flow (never figured the REPL)
2020-11-08T16:31:30Z lockywolf: chez
2020-11-08T16:31:34Z bug2000: Are you Leeroy Jenkins?
2020-11-08T16:31:42Z wasamasa: that's how they write its name
2020-11-08T16:32:18Z bug2000: How do the vim users write they're scheme or is everyone an emacs user?
2020-11-08T16:32:44Z wasamasa: with difficulties I imagine
2020-11-08T16:32:49Z wasamasa: funny indentation and stuff
2020-11-08T16:33:19Z wasamasa: http://wiki.call-cc.org/vim
2020-11-08T16:33:38Z wasamasa: no idea how updated that is
2020-11-08T16:34:19Z wasamasa: http://git.foldling.org/schematic/ and http://git.foldling.org/vim-scheme.git are by a vim user from #chicken
2020-11-08T16:35:48Z wasamasa: schematic seems to have a super basic scheme formatter which doesn't bother adding line breaks
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2020-11-08T16:39:43Z bug2000: wasamasa, at the very least I'm using this. https://github.com/vim-scripts/paredit.vim it helps a lot.
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2020-11-08T16:43:13Z bug2000: wasamasa, that chicken wiki is really outdated. plain vim scheme supports #; cleanly
2020-11-08T16:44:00Z wasamasa: feel free to edit :>
2020-11-08T16:44:14Z bug2000: Let me try finding a workflow first :>
2020-11-08T16:44:35Z bug2000: So how come chicken is vastly slowler in the r7rs benchmarks if it is compiled?
2020-11-08T16:46:09Z wasamasa: while compilation is an obvious route towards greater speed, it's not guaranteed to win you benchmarks
2020-11-08T16:46:29Z wasamasa: that aside, I do recommend you to not take these results too seriously and instead do your own testing
2020-11-08T16:47:04Z bug2000: I don't trust myself to benchmark yet. Haven't even finished reading the spec. I'm probably not using constructs I should.
2020-11-08T16:47:12Z wasamasa: for example I've had very different results when doing my own crappy benchmarks with MAL running on several different R7RS implementations and CHICKEN did beat cyclone there
2020-11-08T16:47:29Z wasamasa: speed isn't everything either
2020-11-08T16:47:45Z bug2000: If you want to brute-force NPC problems, it is XD
2020-11-08T16:47:55Z wasamasa: what use is speed if there are no libraries or tons of bugs or other problems that ruin your day
2020-11-08T16:48:28Z bug2000: no libraries - won't have them anyway if I want to write portable code.
2020-11-08T16:48:38Z wasamasa: replace with SRFIs then
2020-11-08T16:48:53Z bug2000: Well, they come with their impl, right?
2020-11-08T16:49:04Z bug2000: so WCS, I can just vendor them.
2020-11-08T16:49:18Z wasamasa: and writing portable code is, well, while far easier to achieve than it used to be before R7RS, it's not exactly helpful for getting shit done
2020-11-08T16:49:25Z jcowan: bug2000: Say what?  If you are talking about <https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/>, then chicken5-5.2.0 beats chicken5csi-5.2.0 by a factor of 2 up to about a factor of 5.
2020-11-08T16:49:25Z bug2000: As for bugs or hard to debug - definitely hard requirements.
2020-11-08T16:49:52Z wasamasa: SRFIs can have implementations, but not necessarily for your chosen scheme
2020-11-08T16:49:58Z wasamasa: or a performant one
2020-11-08T16:50:03Z wasamasa: anyway
2020-11-08T16:50:12Z wasamasa: I'm on the side of practical things
2020-11-08T16:50:26Z bug2000: jcowan, isn't the MIT one not compiled?
2020-11-08T16:50:31Z jcowan: "There is nothing so practical as a good theory."
2020-11-08T16:50:46Z jcowan: MIT *is* compiled; it just doesn't have a stand-alone compiler.
2020-11-08T16:50:49Z wasamasa: here's my contributions to cyclone: https://github.com/justinethier/cyclone/issues?q=author%3Awasamasa+
2020-11-08T16:51:04Z wasamasa: look at these bugs and tell me whether it's ready for real-world projects
2020-11-08T16:51:37Z bug2000: wasamasa, hey, I already gave up on cyclone!
2020-11-08T16:51:38Z jcowan: see https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/CompilerAvailable.md for details on who compiles and how
2020-11-08T16:52:02Z wasamasa: bug2000: anyway, if you want speed and compilation, chez is a thing
2020-11-08T16:52:09Z wasamasa: bug2000: its library situation doesn't look bad either
2020-11-08T16:52:12Z bug2000: I got lost trying to even start chez.
2020-11-08T16:52:15Z wasamasa: unless you're allergic to R6RS
2020-11-08T16:52:29Z wasamasa: what do you mean?
2020-11-08T16:52:40Z wasamasa: the funny thing where it installs itself as `scheme`?
2020-11-08T16:52:44Z bug2000: as in, I failed to execute hello world
2020-11-08T16:52:48Z jcowan: wasamasa: I note that all those issues are closed, however
2020-11-08T16:53:02Z wasamasa: jcowan: yup, the author was very quick in figuring them out and helpful
2020-11-08T16:53:12Z jcowan: Unfortunately both MIT and Chez, which are the oldest implementations still standing, both do that.
2020-11-08T16:53:23Z jcowan: (install as "scheme")
2020-11-08T16:53:43Z wasamasa: jcowan: so while I find cyclone most interesting as research project, it's in a different category from scheme implementations with long standing bugs that seem to be abandoned
2020-11-08T16:53:56Z jcowan: Absolutely.
2020-11-08T16:54:23Z bug2000: I can't argue.
2020-11-08T16:54:25Z wasamasa: and I have this skill of finding bugs in plenty of things
2020-11-08T16:55:25Z wasamasa: so I might be more critical than other people
2020-11-08T17:02:24Z bug2000: wasamasa, does chicken have srfi-204?
2020-11-08T17:02:52Z wasamasa: matchable is a thing
2020-11-08T17:03:00Z wasamasa: I doubt the SRFI shim has been created though
2020-11-08T17:08:09Z bug2000: thanks!
2020-11-08T17:08:27Z bug2000: On the bright side, the base syntax seems the same.
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2020-11-08T17:10:43Z jcowan: It was meant to be.  There are just a few extensions.
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2020-11-08T17:31:33Z erkin: Oh wow, Chez Scheme is older than MIT Scheme.
2020-11-08T17:34:16Z jcowan: older by a year, but MIT Scheme began as a virtualization of the Scheme-79 chip, which is why there is a directory in it called "microcode"
2020-11-08T17:35:08Z erkin: Chez '85, MIT '86, S48 '87, Gambit '88
2020-11-08T17:35:26Z erkin: Oh, huh, I didn't know that.
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2020-11-08T17:58:53Z civodul: Guile being from ~95, it's almost a youngster :-)
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2020-11-08T18:03:19Z amirouche: arew had the shortest time to live 2020-2020...
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2020-11-08T18:08:30Z Zipheir: I wonder if anyone has a chart of the timelines of all "mostly-complete" schemes.
2020-11-08T18:10:05Z amirouche: there is one on wikipedia I think
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2020-11-08T18:46:50Z Zipheir: Yes.  It covers all Lisp-likes and only a handful of Scheme implementations.
2020-11-08T18:47:57Z Zipheir: The wikipedia page needs some editing.  I just updated the intro to refer to R7 rather than R6 as the latest standard.
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2020-11-08T18:57:49Z jcowan: Thanks!  I hope you found some secondary sources, though.
2020-11-08T18:58:10Z jcowan: R6 was published in JFP and drew scholarly commentary, R7 wasn't and didn't
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2020-11-08T19:04:43Z Zipheir: The stale intro just cited r6rs.org and the final vote, so I substituted the analogous info for R7.  There are more sources used down the page, but I'm not sure if there are any that are non-primary.
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2020-11-08T19:29:53Z jcowan nods.
2020-11-08T19:29:57Z jcowan: We'll hope it sticks
2020-11-08T19:30:44Z jcowan: WP is full of original research and primary sources anyway.  Does anyone thing that the plot summary of a novel/play/film/etc. is drawn from secondary sources?
2020-11-08T19:30:50Z jcowan: s/thing/think
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2020-11-08T19:45:33Z laertus: quick question:  i've been porting a bunch of srfi's to chicken scheme lately, and i was wondering if it would be crass of me to go on each of the srfi's mailing lists and mention that that srfi has been ported to chicken?
2020-11-08T19:45:57Z laertus: would that be considered unwelcome advertising?  or do you think the mailing list subscribers would want to know that that srfi has been ported somewhere?
2020-11-08T19:51:42Z jcowan: I don't see that it's much help, but certainly no harm.
2020-11-08T19:52:07Z jcowan: IIRC most people who subscribe to any list, subscribe to them all via auto-subscribe, because total traffic is low.
2020-11-08T19:53:11Z jcowan: I would like to emphasize that you talk with Chickenfolk when you decide to convert a SRFI, though.  And notifying the author is a Good Thing as well, because there may be Chicken-specific features, particularly in my own SRFIs.
2020-11-08T19:56:15Z erkin: If they appear on the SRFI support list on CHICKEN wiki, they'll get automatically scraped onto the table, if that helps.
2020-11-08T19:57:16Z laertus: ok, cool.. i'll just continue focusing on just informing the chicken folk, then, and not bother the srfi list subscribers
2020-11-08T19:57:28Z jcowan: erkin: Which table?
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2020-11-08T19:58:16Z erkin: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/schemedoc/srfi-metadata/blob/master/table.html
2020-11-08T19:58:50Z erkin: Once I get home in a couple weeks, I'm going to start working on a page for SchemeDoc, on docs.scheme.org. I'll put the table there.
2020-11-08T19:59:54Z laertus: erkin: what's the source of the information on that table?
2020-11-08T19:59:57Z erkin: It's still incomplete but I'm working on it.
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2020-11-08T20:00:08Z erkin: They're scraped from individual sources.
2020-11-08T20:00:10Z erkin: https://github.com/SchemeDoc/srfi-metadata
2020-11-08T20:00:29Z Zipheir: Isn't CHICKEN's SRFI 43 called vector-lib?
2020-11-08T20:00:39Z Zipheir: Oops, meant that for #chicken.
2020-11-08T20:00:47Z erkin: Check listings for individual scripts.
2020-11-08T20:01:04Z laertus: erkin: i ask because the srfi's on chicken's wiki are scattered on different pages and since they're manually updated, they aren't always consistent
2020-11-08T20:01:24Z laertus: erkin: just a couple of days ago, i created this table on the chicken wiki:  https://wiki.call-cc.org/srfi-support
2020-11-08T20:01:43Z erkin: It's based on this: http://wiki.call-cc.org/SRFI-conformance
2020-11-08T20:01:53Z erkin: Which includes eggs as well.
2020-11-08T20:02:09Z laertus: that's pretty out of date
2020-11-08T20:02:22Z laertus: the page i linked to is much more up-to-date
2020-11-08T20:02:31Z erkin: That's a shame. Can you provide a machine readable version of that table?
2020-11-08T20:02:36Z erkin: Or would that be too much to ask for?
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2020-11-08T20:02:50Z laertus: i created it manually, from an org format document
2020-11-08T20:03:00Z laertus: so i don't have a machine readable format, apart from that
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2020-11-08T20:03:22Z erkin: I can manually convert it but I'd need to repeat it with each revision.
2020-11-08T20:03:33Z laertus: here's the source:  https://github.com/diamond-lizard/chicken-srfi-support
2020-11-08T20:03:57Z laertus: i've checked in the original org format document, the html from it, and the svnwiki format that goes on the chicken wiki
2020-11-08T20:04:04Z laertus: the org document is the source of truth
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2020-11-08T20:04:21Z erkin: I think I can work with the org document.
2020-11-08T20:04:31Z laertus: great
2020-11-08T20:04:58Z laertus: also, know that this is not guaranteed to be kept up to date either, or be consistent with other chicken pages that might list srfi's, as it reliees on me for manual updates
2020-11-08T20:05:00Z erkin: It'd be great if there were a uniform way of updating and gathering this information.
2020-11-08T20:05:05Z laertus: yes, i agree
2020-11-08T20:05:45Z erkin: I'm glad lassik wrote this scraper generator script because I wouldn've just given up.
2020-11-08T20:07:24Z laertus: it'd be nice if there was a srfi-metadata-syncin'g srfi
2020-11-08T20:08:07Z laertus: complying schemes could send and/or publish the metadata about their own srfi compliance via whatever mechanism the srfi documents
2020-11-08T20:09:18Z laertus: such a mechanism could also potentially be used for all scheme libraries, not just srfi's
2020-11-08T20:09:35Z laertus: then there could be a central repository of scheme libraries, with useful metadata about them
2020-11-08T20:09:54Z laertus: or something.. :)
2020-11-08T20:10:47Z Zipheir: That would be good.
2020-11-08T20:11:54Z laertus: also, it'd be good to know what srfi's and other standards non-srfi libraries depend on
2020-11-08T20:12:26Z laertus: so if one were to want to port one of those non-srfi libraries then it'd be easy to tell what is required to do so
2020-11-08T20:12:58Z Zipheir: laertus: You should definitely bring these ideas up on the srfi discuss list: https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-discuss
2020-11-08T20:13:13Z laertus: alright, i will do that
2020-11-08T20:13:32Z laertus: thank you
2020-11-08T20:14:20Z Zipheir: laertus: Thank you for doing so much work with the CHICKEN implementations.
2020-11-08T20:14:30Z laertus: my pleasure
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2020-11-08T20:14:44Z laertus: i just wish i had time to do them all.. for every scheme!
2020-11-08T20:14:51Z wasamasa: I wonder how many people I've converted to #chicken
2020-11-08T20:15:51Z laertus: hopefully not less than a million
2020-11-08T20:16:10Z Zipheir: laertus: Can I suggest SRFI 196?  It's completely portable, but I haven't gotten around to eggifying it.
2020-11-08T20:17:03Z laertus: oh, i was looking at that
2020-11-08T20:17:07Z laertus: that looked very useful
2020-11-08T20:17:11Z laertus: range object
2020-11-08T20:17:13Z laertus: s
2020-11-08T20:17:45Z laertus: i think i'm going to be doing srfi-133 first, and then maybe i'll move on to 196
2020-11-08T20:17:53Z erkin: laertus: Please mail the SchemeDoc mailing list with your ideas. :-)
2020-11-08T20:18:16Z Zipheir: laertus: Cool, thanks.  Let me/us know if you need help.
2020-11-08T20:18:18Z laertus: erkin: is that the link Zipheir posted earlier?
2020-11-08T20:18:30Z erkin: No, that's for SRFIs in general.
2020-11-08T20:18:31Z Zipheir: No, another ml. 8)
2020-11-08T20:18:31Z laertus: Zipheir: you got it
2020-11-08T20:18:47Z laertus: thanks for recommending srfi-196
2020-11-08T20:19:02Z erkin: https://srfi-email.schemers.org/schemedoc/
2020-11-08T20:19:02Z laertus: and if there are any other particularly useful, easy to port srfi's, i'd love to hear about them
2020-11-08T20:19:13Z amirouche: laertus: great work! Thanks for sharing :)
2020-11-08T20:19:16Z erkin: All mailing lists are here: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-list-subscribe.html
2020-11-08T20:19:25Z laertus: amirouche: my pleasure
2020-11-08T20:20:17Z erkin: And thanks for the heads up on CHICKEN SRFIs. It's one of the handful of implementations we haven't found a way to properly track.
2020-11-08T20:21:24Z laertus: no problem
2020-11-08T20:21:26Z erkin: Anyway, we'd love to have more hands on the board. Right now it's mostly just me and lassik sporadically doing work.
2020-11-08T20:21:38Z laertus: btw, speaking of mailing lists, what is the ettiqute on cross-posting?
2020-11-08T20:22:05Z erkin: It's fine as long as it's relevant and intended to start a discussion. :-)
2020-11-08T20:22:13Z laertus: would it be better to send a separate email to each list about this srfi-metadata-syncing idea, or just one eamil cc'd to both?
2020-11-08T20:22:16Z erkin: The mailing lists aren't too active anyway.
2020-11-08T20:22:27Z laertus: ok
2020-11-08T20:22:54Z laertus: i'll just send one email to both lists
2020-11-08T20:23:59Z laertus: maybe i should add reply-to: headers for both lists too.. so the threads could be kept in sync.. don't know
2020-11-08T20:24:19Z laertus: i'm not very well versed in advanced mailing list use
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2020-11-08T21:03:17Z erkin: Done http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/schemedoc/srfi-metadata/blob/master/table.html
2020-11-08T21:03:32Z erkin: I had the opportunity to distinguish eggs from core libraries this time around.
2020-11-08T21:03:37Z laertus: great
2020-11-08T21:03:58Z laertus: so will be automatically updated when i update the org document?
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2020-11-08T21:04:36Z erkin: Not automatically, I need to run the scraper each time.
2020-11-08T21:04:41Z erkin: Which I do semi-regularly.
2020-11-08T21:05:40Z laertus: ah, ok.. but i don't have to manually notify you or anything, right?
2020-11-08T21:05:56Z erkin: Once I move everything to the script that uses the GitHub API instead of directly downloading tarballs to search through them, I might set up a cronjob for it.
2020-11-08T21:06:06Z erkin: You don't, unless you need it updated right away. :-P
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2020-11-08T21:08:23Z laertus: alrlight, cool
2020-11-08T21:08:32Z laertus: i don't anticipate there ever being a need to update right away
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2020-11-08T21:09:25Z erkin: I jest, you can poke me whenever. :-P
2020-11-08T21:10:56Z erkin: Feel free to send patches also.
2020-11-08T21:11:03Z laertus: ok, thanks erkin
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2020-11-09T00:32:43Z goldcell: what is the scheme repl here?
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2020-11-09T01:04:21Z Riastradh: erkin: Where do you get 1986 as the start year for MIT Scheme?  That was just when it started using revision control.
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2020-11-09T01:07:08Z Riastradh: One could say it really started in about 1979 with the microcode for the Scheme chip; over the next couple years that code was rewritten in m68k assembly and then C, and the compiler (LIAR (LIAR Imitates APPLY Recursively)) was written no later than 1984 when it was documented in Guillermo Rozas's S.B. thesis.
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2020-11-09T01:14:25Z laertus: erkin: i thought you might be amused by this:  https://dpaste.com/7YNLPRYTB.txt
2020-11-09T01:15:51Z lockywolf: On github you can fine sicp 1ed draft, from ~1982
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2020-11-09T01:15:57Z lockywolf: *find
2020-11-09T01:16:29Z lockywolf: laertus, alignment is completely broken on my Firefox
2020-11-09T01:17:09Z laertus: lockywolf: my guess is you're probably using proportional fonts
2020-11-09T01:17:18Z laertus: need to use fixed-width fonts to see it right
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2020-11-09T01:17:24Z laertus: maybe download it and view it in a terminal
2020-11-09T01:17:52Z laertus: or set up firefox to use fixed-width fonts on plain text mime types.. if that's possible
2020-11-09T01:18:50Z lockywolf: it's fixed-width, butt..
2020-11-09T01:19:54Z lockywolf: maybe fixedwidthness of my font is poor
2020-11-09T01:20:14Z lockywolf: it's WenQuanYi Micro Hei Mono
2020-11-09T01:20:34Z laertus: hmm
2020-11-09T01:20:55Z laertus: not sure.. but looks fine for me in a terminal using the inconsolata font
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2020-11-09T01:23:53Z lockywolf: funny
2020-11-09T01:24:02Z lockywolf: it looks just fine in the terminal
2020-11-09T01:24:04Z lockywolf: using the same font
2020-11-09T01:24:28Z laertus: i think firefox must just not use fixed-width fonts to display plain text mime types
2020-11-09T01:25:30Z lockywolf: ahh...
2020-11-09T01:25:35Z lockywolf: nope
2020-11-09T01:25:42Z laertus: the "http" utility pointed at that url shows me:  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
2020-11-09T01:25:59Z lockywolf: for some reason, crosses are displayed using DejaVu Sans Mono
2020-11-09T01:26:10Z lockywolf: but checkmarks use wenquanyi
2020-11-09T01:26:12Z laertus: ah, interesting
2020-11-09T01:26:25Z laertus: how did you find that you, by the way?
2020-11-09T01:27:36Z lockywolf: open file on a page, open inspector, in the right pane, there is a "fonts" tab
2020-11-09T01:28:14Z lockywolf: if you hover over the tiny barely legible font name (as opposed to bold and clearly seen), it highlights the characters on the page
2020-11-09T01:30:10Z laertus: hmm.. it's not highlighting them for me for some reason
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2020-11-09T01:31:00Z laertus: oh, wait. i got it
2020-11-09T01:31:07Z lockywolf: got what?
2020-11-09T01:31:12Z laertus: got it to highlight
2020-11-09T01:31:17Z laertus: had to click in the top pane first
2020-11-09T01:31:23Z lockywolf: ahh.
2020-11-09T01:31:48Z laertus: looks like for me all the check marks and crosses are FreeSerif font and the rest are Inconsolata
2020-11-09T01:31:58Z laertus: and the alignment is off for me in firefox too
2020-11-09T01:32:13Z laertus: so i think the issue here is that our monospace fonts don't have the checkmark and cross glyphs
2020-11-09T01:32:23Z laertus: so firefox just uses whatever font it finds that has them
2020-11-09T01:32:26Z lockywolf: It looks fine in the terminal
2020-11-09T01:32:35Z laertus: hmm.. that's a good point
2020-11-09T01:32:39Z lockywolf: where it is set to use the exactly the same font
2020-11-09T01:32:52Z laertus: but the terminal can only use one font
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2020-11-09T01:33:12Z laertus: so maybe firefox prefers to use a proportional font first.. dunno
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2020-11-09T01:34:14Z laertus: well.. in any case.. to make it look better in firefox, i can just substitute those crosses and checkmarks with Y... or maybe just "Y" on the checkmarks and nothing on the crosses for increased visibility
2020-11-09T01:34:16Z laertus: brb...
2020-11-09T01:35:20Z lockywolf: I'd like to file a bug in firefox first, if you don't mind
2020-11-09T01:36:42Z laertus: ok.. this looks better:  https://dpaste.com/2EQUM2VHW.txt
2020-11-09T01:37:07Z laertus: lighter on resources too, i think
2020-11-09T01:37:23Z laertus: not that i don't like pretty checkmarks and crosses..
2020-11-09T01:38:18Z laertus: erkin: i think it might be nice to have totals for each of these columns too.. maybe right under the name of the implementation
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2020-11-09T01:38:49Z laertus: it would, unfortunately, require more horizontal space to accomodate the totals, in this narrow view
2020-11-09T01:38:53Z laertus: but it'd still be nice to know
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2020-11-09T01:40:42Z laertus: oh, i think i messed up in the last version of this document.. i didn't look closely at the legend.. so it's now missing info...
2020-11-09T01:42:34Z laertus: and that's what i get for viewing every page in dark mode
2020-11-09T01:42:52Z laertus: didn't even see the colors on the original page
2020-11-09T01:44:48Z laertus: so to translate it properly to text i'd need to not just copy and paste it from the original site to a text document, but get the colors, and use 4 different characters for the cells
2020-11-09T01:49:03Z laertus: nah... i think i've had enough fun...
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2020-11-09T04:12:37Z lockywolf: why is the main Scheme website called schemers.org, not scheme.org?
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2020-11-09T04:22:21Z aeth: maybe scheme.org was taken?
2020-11-09T04:22:46Z aeth: these days, you wouldn't name something without securing a domain for it, but Scheme predates the web
2020-11-09T04:26:13Z lockywolf: scheme.org belongs to some Aladdin from Sweden
2020-11-09T04:26:20Z lockywolf: and points to schemers.org
2020-11-09T04:29:19Z lockywolf: I should look into the web archive
2020-11-09T04:29:33Z edgar-rft: try googling "scheme" vs "schemers"
2020-11-09T04:34:23Z lockywolf: didn't find the answer
2020-11-09T04:34:55Z lockywolf: in 2000 scheme.org was still a website about the language
2020-11-09T04:36:51Z lockywolf: does anyone know how to solve tspl 12.3.1?
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2020-11-09T04:46:48Z mdhughes: Look at the definition of set-of, esp. rule #3.
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2020-11-09T05:02:27Z lockywolf: I'll have a look
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2020-11-09T08:32:58Z erkin: laertus: Could put that table on a gopherhole. :-)
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2020-11-09T08:36:16Z TheInformaticist: Greetings.
2020-11-09T08:37:25Z TheInformaticist: I'm using stklos Scheme in Debian Linux...
2020-11-09T08:38:06Z TheInformaticist: STklos has its own package management tool, stklos-pkg.
2020-11-09T08:38:59Z TheInformaticist: I have been attempting to download the package stklos-gtk-canvas-1.0.0
2020-11-09T08:40:14Z TheInformaticist: When I issue the command, I get an error message saying that stklos-compile cannot find the GTK+ library file "libgobject-2.0"
2020-11-09T08:41:17Z TheInformaticist: I've searched high and low trying to understand how to get this installed on my system. I'm afraid it's over my head. Can anyone offer advice?
2020-11-09T08:41:55Z TheInformaticist: I've already tried several things, to no avail.
2020-11-09T08:43:05Z amirouche: hello
2020-11-09T08:43:26Z amirouche: maybe try the bug tracker of stklos if nobody respond.
2020-11-09T08:43:35Z amirouche: usually this place is buzy starting a noon
2020-11-09T08:43:41Z amirouche: somewhat busy
2020-11-09T08:44:56Z TheInformaticist: amirouche: I don't think it's a bug...I think I need to install "libgobject-2.0" on my system, but it doesn't seem too easy.
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2020-11-09T08:46:54Z erkin: TheInformaticist: Do you have libglib2.0-dev installed?
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2020-11-09T08:50:25Z TheInformaticist: erkin: I'm not sure. I'll check.
2020-11-09T08:51:59Z TheInformaticist: erkin: Yes, it's the newest version 2.58 etc.
2020-11-09T08:52:11Z amirouche: Nowadays, bug trackers are used for support request too.
2020-11-09T08:53:42Z TheInformaticist: As far as I know, stklos is maintained and developed by a professor in France. I don't think it has a bug tracker.
2020-11-09T08:55:12Z weinholt: https://github.com/egallesio/STklos/issues
2020-11-09T08:55:38Z TheInformaticist: weinholt: ohhhhhh...thanks!
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2020-11-09T09:04:42Z civodul: oh, STklos is back
2020-11-09T09:05:35Z lockywolf: stklos has been working for quite a while
2020-11-09T09:05:48Z lockywolf: what is more amazing is that STk is also back
2020-11-09T09:06:18Z lockywolf: in the sense that you can compile it with recent GCC
2020-11-09T09:07:00Z lockywolf: amirouche, this place has a few people in the early morning :)
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2020-11-09T13:45:53Z wasamasa: looking at the srfi html for the first time and oh wow
2020-11-09T13:45:57Z wasamasa: using tables for layout?
2020-11-09T13:47:14Z wasamasa: I've briefly considered writing a script to turn that into actually useful markup, but eh
2020-11-09T13:49:55Z amirouche: tftw aka. table ftw
2020-11-09T13:50:13Z amirouche: or better tflftw aka. table for layout ftw
2020-11-09T13:50:29Z wasamasa: the best part is that the table doesn't seem to have any purpose other than putting a tiny spacer on the left side of the code example
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2020-11-09T15:08:31Z lockywolf: ow, we're having a nice shiny Feedly button on scheme.dk/planet
2020-11-09T15:08:45Z lockywolf: finally no more broken Google Reader
2020-11-09T15:10:51Z mdhughes: You know what's great about tables? They always work.
2020-11-09T15:11:40Z mdhughes: At one job where we had a gaggle of designers, I set a time limit of 30 minutes wasted trying to do layout in CSS, before they had to punt back to tables.
2020-11-09T15:11:47Z lockywolf: which srfi?
2020-11-09T15:12:11Z lockywolf: the template for the two I wrote didn't have any tables
2020-11-09T15:12:28Z wasamasa: converting https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-158/srfi-158.html to svnwiki markup
2020-11-09T15:12:36Z wasamasa: I'm mostly there after loads of search and replace
2020-11-09T15:13:04Z lockywolf: 159 is rather fresh
2020-11-09T15:13:06Z lockywolf: ...
2020-11-09T15:13:27Z lockywolf: but since at least 200 I didn't see any tables
2020-11-09T15:14:08Z lockywolf: html still hasn't a tag for multiline code
2020-11-09T15:14:29Z lockywolf: <code> is for inline code
2020-11-09T15:15:12Z mdhughes: I use <pre><code> ... </code></pre> for all code blocks, but YMMV.
2020-11-09T15:16:05Z wasamasa: sure, I sometimes revert to tables
2020-11-09T15:16:11Z wasamasa: but this particular pattern is new to me
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2020-11-09T15:26:16Z ManDay: lockywolf: i think not to make a semantic distinction between multiline and singleline code is reasonable
2020-11-09T15:26:32Z ManDay: whether it's then presented as a block or in-line is a styling matter
2020-11-09T15:26:41Z ManDay: (of course this view can be challenged)
2020-11-09T15:27:18Z lockywolf: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-11-09T15:28:10Z lockywolf: does the <code> tag support the display:block property?
2020-11-09T15:29:51Z ManDay: i would bet so. why would it not
2020-11-09T15:30:01Z ManDay: tags don't mean anything.
2020-11-09T15:30:07Z wasamasa: anyway, I've converted that whole thing
2020-11-09T15:30:16Z ManDay: you can stable a table like a span, a div like a table, and a list like a hyperlink
2020-11-09T15:30:21Z ManDay: s/stable/style
2020-11-09T15:32:46Z wasamasa: sure you can do that, but ultimately browsers have hardcoded rules about their behavior
2020-11-09T15:33:08Z wasamasa: it shows whenever it comes to accessibility
2020-11-09T15:33:19Z wasamasa: react and such fail horribly in that aspect
2020-11-09T15:33:52Z wasamasa: and although I'm not vision impaired to the degree of needing a screen reader, I still notice when using qutebrowser that only because it looks like a link and I can click it, it doesn't have to be one
2020-11-09T15:38:46Z ManDay: wasamasa: I was just responding to lockywolf's question whether they can style a <code> element in a certain way
2020-11-09T15:39:04Z ManDay: by "you can style anything like anything"
2020-11-09T15:41:36Z wasamasa: looking at the srfi-158 tests I just had this epiphany
2020-11-09T15:41:44Z wasamasa: a java stringbuilder is just a string accumulator
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2020-11-09T15:42:35Z wasamasa: makes me wonder though how an efficient implementation of the latter might look like
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2020-11-09T16:07:55Z mettekou: Does anyone know of a didactic implementation of hygienic macro expansion as in the Syntactic Abstraction in Scheme paper?
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2020-11-09T16:20:56Z gwatt: mettekou: Not sure about didactic, but psyntax is a good place to start looking
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2020-11-09T16:57:13Z Riastradh: mettekou: You might like Jonathan Rees's article `Implementing Lexically Scoped Macros' in Lisp Pointers.
2020-11-09T16:58:41Z wasamasa: alexpander has copious commentary
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2020-11-09T17:24:15Z wasamasa: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-146/pull/16
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2020-11-09T17:52:28Z wasamasa: Riastradh: seems like your HAMT code made it into the coop
2020-11-09T17:53:11Z wasamasa: Riastradh: can I use hash-trie/fold to implement a for-each?
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2020-11-09T17:58:19Z wasamasa: Riastradh: or is it going to be cannibalization of hash-trie/fold instead?
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2020-11-09T18:20:28Z jcowan: wasamasa: I just read your post on Guile Elisp, and I think what you're missing about why it is missing so much is that Guile is meant to be embedded in *any* desktop app.  So it's not going to have things like buffers, which make sense only in an editor.  It's a hard line to draw with Elisp, to be sure, as it was never naturally partitioned anyway.
2020-11-09T18:21:01Z wasamasa: yes and I find it valuable to have an answer for people who think for some reason there's now a standalone alternative implementation
2020-11-09T18:21:31Z wasamasa: which is just wrong
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2020-11-09T18:43:33Z jcowan: If you wanted to write standalone programs in Guile Elisp, you'd probably end up using a lot of Scheme procedures because that's where all the external stuff is.
2020-11-09T18:43:44Z wasamasa: yup
2020-11-09T18:43:53Z wasamasa: I've considered porting M-x doctor to demonstrate that
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2020-11-09T18:44:51Z wasamasa: or SICP exercises
2020-11-09T18:46:18Z jcowan: M-x doctor would be great
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2020-11-09T19:18:25Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Using hash-trie/fold sounds reasonable to me.
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2020-11-09T19:18:36Z wasamasa: alright
2020-11-09T19:22:12Z Riastradh: ew
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2020-11-09T19:37:34Z terpri: wasamasa, i ported dunnet to guile elisp a while back, which indeed required a lot of procedure stubs but was feasible because dunnet can be run in batch mode
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2020-11-09T19:37:44Z terpri: wasamasa, v. https://news.slashdot.org/story/12/04/02/197221/guile-scheme-emacs-lisp-compatibility-matures
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2020-11-09T19:38:09Z wasamasa: ah, good point
2020-11-09T19:38:26Z terpri: (there's a dead paste.lisp.org link in the story, but i catted the dunload.el file in the screencast)
2020-11-09T19:38:29Z wasamasa: and yes, doctor is similar
2020-11-09T19:38:33Z wasamasa: it's mostly list processing
2020-11-09T19:38:47Z wasamasa: you'd need to change the interface for passing user input and that's it hopefully
2020-11-09T19:38:57Z terpri: yeah
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2020-11-09T19:57:08Z Riastradh: wasamasa: FYI, I just updated the comments at the top to be clearer about what the data structure is and what the running times are, with caveats.
2020-11-09T19:58:10Z wasamasa: rudybot: does trie rhyme with brie?
2020-11-09T19:58:11Z rudybot: wasamasa: I instinctly say "tree" because that rhymes with "brie", which is one letter off from "trie". But yes, it makes it hard to distinguish from tree-the-data-structure.
2020-11-09T19:59:50Z jcowan: What's worse is that the etymology is "reTRIEval", which makes it "tree" once again.
2020-11-09T20:00:04Z jcowan: But I say "try": clarity before purity
2020-11-09T20:03:20Z Riastradh: wasamasa: If I were doing it afresh and touching anything other than comments, I would replace the sample hash functions by something like random-bytevector-hash in <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20190820/uwc.scm>, which actually has some reasonable theory behind it setting upper bounds on the probability of collision.
2020-11-09T20:04:03Z Riastradh: I usually pronounce it `try, tee are eye ee', or just avoid saying it altogether much like I avoid ever talking about more than one octopus for fear of derailing the entire conversation.
2020-11-09T20:06:31Z Zipheir: Oddly enough, just as it's hard to distinguish between "trie" and "tree", it's often hard to distinguish between tries and trees.
2020-11-09T20:06:48Z Riastradh: or I say `radix tree'
2020-11-09T20:07:50Z Riastradh: `Process! process! churning bright / On the backplane in the night / What immortal daemon eye / Could frame thy balanced radix trie?'
2020-11-09T20:08:36Z wasamasa: wait, are you suggesting symmetry is supposed to rhyme with eye
2020-11-09T20:08:37Z Zipheir: Slant rhyme or no?  Your choice!
2020-11-09T20:11:03Z Zipheir: It's a little ironic that programmers who regard probabilistic data structures as weird black magic still use hash tables without any worry at all.
2020-11-09T20:11:35Z wasamasa: dunno, bloom filters don't exactly have use to me
2020-11-09T20:12:29Z Zipheir: Which reminds me that jcowan expressed interest in having skip lists in Scheme.
2020-11-09T20:16:23Z jcowan: I'd also like to know how SRFI 101 works
2020-11-09T20:16:28Z jcowan: and there should be a port to R7Rs
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2020-11-09T20:18:14Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Like <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/skip-list.scm>?
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2020-11-09T20:28:29Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Wow!
2020-11-09T20:30:31Z Zipheir: I guess that if we could that, we'd be part of the way toward having a skip list SRFI.
2020-11-09T20:33:06Z Riastradh updates https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/bb-tree.scm to cite problems with balancing criterion (fixing left as exercise for reader)
2020-11-09T20:35:54Z Riastradh: (fix should look something like https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/src/runtime/wttree.scm?id=18628e9fbb7fce253342a454f4018f99f420574a and https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/src/runtime/wttree.scm?id=bfdb32552803a12584e675c92d1afe17ed1e1f07)
2020-11-09T20:35:54Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/82ESL0RZAQ
2020-11-09T20:35:55Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/VuP5TkBl5h
2020-11-09T20:36:09Z TCZ: :)
2020-11-09T20:38:47Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Why a SRFI?
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2020-11-09T20:41:28Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I'm referring to jcowan's RFSRFI on the srfi-discuss ml.
2020-11-09T20:42:20Z Riastradh: ...rfsrfi...
2020-11-09T20:42:36Z Zipheir: I just coined that.  Hope ya like it. :)
2020-11-09T20:43:08Z Riastradh: what if you're not entirely sure that this is the right thing to be srfiing; maybe you should make sure to cast a wider net and issue an rfrfsrfi?
2020-11-09T20:43:50Z Zipheir: There's nothing that can't be fixed/broken with an extra layer of RFing.
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2020-11-09T20:48:13Z Zipheir: (Pronounced "urfing".)
2020-11-09T20:48:28Z jcowan: "I urf in your general direction!"
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2020-11-10T00:51:21Z Riastradh: wasamasa: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/hash.scm (corrected mistakes in proof and added assertion about fixnum range)
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2020-11-10T01:02:45Z Riastradh: (could adapt it to other fields too but this one is about the largest you can reliably do in fixnum arithmetic in MIT Scheme)
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2020-11-10T06:33:34Z mdhughes: Things I keep rediscovering: add1/sub1/1+/1- aren't standard, but they're just defined in most standard libraries.
2020-11-10T06:34:39Z mdhughes: Except tinyscheme calls them succ/pred, which is why I noticed.
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2020-11-10T06:41:13Z mdhughes: LISP uses INCF/DECF for variables, but I don't see a standard INC or anything?
2020-11-10T06:42:01Z aeth: Common Lisp has 1+/1- but INCF/DECF
2020-11-10T06:44:13Z mdhughes: Yeah, I finally found them, lispworks index is a little hard to find things in.
2020-11-10T06:52:21Z aeth: it's easier just to search http://l1sp.org/html/
2020-11-10T06:52:47Z aeth: at least, if you know the name and you want to see if it's present
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2020-11-10T07:26:02Z lisbeths: If a standard is turing complete one can port algorithms to those standard if those algorithm are stateless towards the external world in the sense that haskell is stateless.
2020-11-10T07:26:26Z lisbeths: Consider for example the standard of the churches encoding of lambda calculus which may run arbitrary algorithms thugh at piss poor efficiency.
2020-11-10T07:27:07Z lisbeths: A sort of "cabal" if you will could be build upon a lisp with a standard, though it would have to trust it's compiler's compliance to that standard.
2020-11-10T07:28:33Z wasamasa: Riastradh: thanks
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2020-11-10T07:31:01Z wasamasa: amirouche: I'm looking closer at srfi-167 again and found that while the html document speaks of an engine and okvs library, the reference implementation provides (srfi 167 engine) and (srfi 167 memory)
2020-11-10T07:31:17Z wasamasa: amirouche: so which of those two is right?
2020-11-10T07:42:44Z wasamasa: amirouche: and is there a scheme it runs on? I've found a closed PR for chibi so far
2020-11-10T07:53:23Z wasamasa: amirouche: ah, it's in arew, but that's just copy-pasting the reference implementation
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2020-11-10T07:59:02Z wasamasa: amirouche: and https://github.com/amirouche/around-ordered-key-value-stores uses completely different names, yay
2020-11-10T07:59:55Z wasamasa: amirouche: I've also found two broken repo links to framagit and sourcehut
2020-11-10T08:00:31Z mdhughes: lisbeths: https://dspace.lu.lv/dspace/bitstream/handle/7/5306/Podnieks_What_is_Mathematics_Goedel.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
2020-11-10T08:00:31Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/dlwvmXbqGn
2020-11-10T08:05:02Z lisbeths: I've had enough time thinking about the church turing theses and godels proof for this last decade thank you.
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2020-11-10T08:32:47Z amirouche: wasamasa: In the sample implementation, there is several libraries among them there is `memory`, that is the "okvs" interface.
2020-11-10T08:33:33Z amirouche: wasamasa: maybe it is overkill, but its was built around the idea that you can swap implementation without changing the code
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2020-11-10T08:35:07Z amirouche: wasamasa: the pack library is what serialize scheme basic data types to bytevector
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2020-11-10T08:38:12Z amirouche: amirouche: the engine is the interface that allows to swap implementation without changing the code
2020-11-10T08:41:10Z mettekou: Riastradh gwatt: Are the implementations you mentioned yesterday actually implementations of Syntactic Abstraction in Scheme? They look like Macros that Work.
2020-11-10T08:43:01Z mettekou: Which begs the question: has the Syntactic Abstraction in Scheme ever been implemented, aside from by the authors to be able to write the paper?
2020-11-10T08:43:29Z mettekou: the Syntactic Abstraction in Scheme _paper_ **
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2020-11-10T08:59:17Z wasamasa: amirouche: sure, that much I've figured out, the part I wonder is whether I should follow the html spec to the letter and offer (srfi 167 okvs) or use (srfi 167 memory) instead
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2020-11-10T09:04:19Z amirouche: if it a memory backend like the sample implementation it is better to provide (srfi 167 memory)
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2020-11-10T09:06:52Z wasamasa: but wait, wouldn't that suggest that an alternative implementation should be similarly named
2020-11-10T09:07:01Z wasamasa: like (srfi 167 sophia) or (srfi 167 leveldb)
2020-11-10T09:09:16Z amirouche: yes
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2020-11-10T09:11:04Z wasamasa: oh well
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2020-11-10T09:11:55Z amirouche: what is the problem with that?
2020-11-10T09:12:22Z wasamasa: one cannot even rely on a specific srfi name
2020-11-10T09:14:03Z wasamasa: or rather, the SRFI doesn't tell me what library I'm supposed to import
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2020-11-10T09:24:30Z wasamasa: anyway, the document should definitely say that the sample implementation depends on srfi-125 hash tables
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2020-11-10T09:41:38Z wasamasa: it might be interesting to have a graphviz representation which srfi sample implementations depend on which srfis
2020-11-10T09:43:20Z amirouche: ack
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2020-11-10T10:39:55Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-11-10T10:48:20Z wasamasa: here's a terrible one (it most likely has false positives): https://x32.be/dZSk4.png
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2020-11-10T10:50:19Z amirouche: nice =)
2020-11-10T10:51:56Z wasamasa: for this I've grepped the sources for (srfi \d+) forms and eliminated false positives whenever possible
2020-11-10T10:52:27Z wasamasa: there's some islands and some obvious heavily depended srfis
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2020-11-10T11:14:58Z mdhughes: Your fedi post appeared and then vanished.
2020-11-10T11:17:25Z wasamasa: yeah, I've noticed my instance scaled the picture down
2020-11-10T11:17:34Z wasamasa: so I adjusted it a bit more and now it's actually readable
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2020-11-10T11:21:16Z wasamasa: I suspect the thing with only srfi's above 100 may be due to the syntax I've grepped for being a r7rs thing
2020-11-10T11:21:27Z wasamasa: as there's few sample implementations relying on r6rs libraries
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2020-11-10T11:22:12Z wasamasa: in other words, r5rs considered harmful for easy srfi porting (which explains taylanub's effort to do r7rs sample implementations for the lower ones)
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2020-11-10T11:42:56Z amirouche: https://source.mntmn.com/MNT/interscheme
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2020-11-10T12:11:10Z wasamasa: I'm glad this time mntmn chose to not build their own lisp
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2020-11-10T13:46:53Z jcowan: 1+ and 1- aren't valid identifiers in Scheme (also 1- is confusing, because it looks like (1- 10) should be -9 instead of 9
2020-11-10T13:46:55Z jcowan: )
2020-11-10T13:48:17Z jcowan: however, lots of Schemes don't enforce the rules of identifiers, and just assume that anything that isn't a number is an identifier
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2020-11-10T14:13:52Z mdhughes: They could just be added to the <peculiar identifier> list.
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2020-11-10T14:17:07Z jcowan: Right, which would mean issuing R8RS
2020-11-10T14:17:55Z jcowan: Anyway, add1 and sub1 are clearer and only trivially longer
2020-11-10T14:20:41Z mdhughes: While I was thinking about this, I would've much preferred inc/dec. ++/-- are silly but well-known.
2020-11-10T14:21:40Z mdhughes: (define inc (case-lambda [(x) (+ x 1)] [(x y) (+ x y)]))
2020-11-10T14:22:15Z wasamasa: I've only seen ++ and -- in lisps designed by JS users
2020-11-10T14:22:33Z wasamasa: same people use = for assignment :D
2020-11-10T14:22:40Z wasamasa: I don't mind add1 really
2020-11-10T14:22:59Z mdhughes: Chez allows ++ and -- to be defined.
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2020-11-10T14:27:00Z ecraven: incf!
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2020-11-10T14:28:29Z wasamasa: rudybot: let's use thumbs up/down icons instead of add1/sub1
2020-11-10T14:28:41Z rudybot: wasamasa: (define (pascal n) (define (fact n (p 1)) (if (zero? n) p (fact (sub1 n) (* p n)))) (define (choose n r) (/ (fact n) (fact r) (fact (- n r)))) (unfold-right (cut < n <>) (cut choose n <>) add1 0))
2020-11-10T14:28:44Z wasamasa: the lisp keyboard had them after all
2020-11-10T14:28:58Z mdhughes: They're in Unicode, sure.
2020-11-10T14:29:10Z ecraven: only the knight keyboard, right? the symbolics didn't, I think?
2020-11-10T14:29:53Z ecraven: ah, space cadet had them, no other, I think
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2020-11-10T14:38:28Z amirouche: :+1:
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2020-11-10T14:42:14Z ecraven: I've implemented inc! several times before, like push!, both are useful
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2020-11-10T15:03:15Z jcowan: I have a pre-SRFI about that (as expected)
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2020-11-10T15:38:19Z amirouche: nearly the week-end
2020-11-10T15:38:22Z amirouche hopes
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2020-11-10T15:42:09Z Riastradh: mettekou: oops, sorry -- I mixed up the papers.  In that case, you want psyntax.
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2020-11-10T16:10:57Z Riastradh: mettekou: As for whether anyone else has implemented the same thing: Andre van Tonder might have.
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2020-11-10T17:53:16Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/Srfi17ExtensionsCowan.md defines push! pop! inc! dec! update! macros
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2020-11-10T18:39:04Z amirouche: funny that the most active pre-srfi is about static typing
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2020-11-10T19:04:14Z aeth: before static typing was cool!
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2020-11-10T19:08:25Z amirouche: wasamasa: I just figured the in-memory okvs rely on call/cc via scheme mapping, so it might be slow...
2020-11-10T19:10:22Z wasamasa: dunno, call/cc is fast here
2020-11-10T19:10:34Z wasamasa: rudybot: the benefits of CPS soup
2020-11-10T19:10:42Z rudybot: wasamasa: latest guile article: http://wingolog.org/archives/2015/07/27/cps-soup
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2020-11-10T19:26:03Z Zipheir: I wonder if there are any Schemes with notably slow call/cc implementations.
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2020-11-10T19:54:16Z jcowan: I just wrote a private email to the effect that we don't get much boost by converting SML to Scheme, because it is short on libs.  The big boost comes from letting either Haskell (15,000 libs) run in Scheme or CL (1500 libs).
2020-11-10T19:58:31Z Zipheir: Is anyone using a quick method to remove the junk created by chicken-install in an egg dir?
2020-11-10T19:58:40Z Zipheir: Sorry, ww.
2020-11-10T19:59:47Z Zipheir: "run in Scheme"?
2020-11-10T20:00:09Z Zipheir: Haskell/CL on top of Scheme, or vice-versa?
2020-11-10T20:01:43Z aeth: what about ocaml?
2020-11-10T20:05:17Z amirouche: what about perl?
2020-11-10T20:06:43Z amirouche: Zipheir: yes, chez call/cc might fast compared to guile, but it is still slow compared to anything that does use it.
2020-11-10T20:06:55Z amirouche: that does NOT use it.
2020-11-10T20:08:08Z Zipheir: amirouche: I guess it's the CPSing Schemes that have the fastest call/cc implementations, unsurprisingly.
2020-11-10T20:08:09Z amirouche: running haskell/cl/ocaml on scheme does not seem interesting to me.
2020-11-10T20:08:26Z Zipheir: Idris totally runs on Scheme.
2020-11-10T20:08:56Z amirouche: Zipheir: I created a program two times slower than C, I removed call/cc it was as fast as C.
2020-11-10T20:09:29Z Zipheir: Sounds like a bad call/cc implementation.
2020-11-10T20:10:09Z amirouche: not all Scheme can claim to be as fast as C.
2020-11-10T20:10:23Z amirouche: maybe gambit
2020-11-10T20:12:21Z amirouche: And this time the code was not relying on ffi
2020-11-10T20:13:37Z Zipheir: I don't mean that being not-as-fast-as-C shows that the call/cc implementation is bad.
2020-11-10T20:14:00Z Zipheir: But that removing call/cc made the program much faster says that something's wrong.
2020-11-10T20:14:06Z amirouche: yes.
2020-11-10T20:14:35Z jcowan: Zipheir: On top of Scheme.
2020-11-10T20:14:47Z Zipheir: Interesting.
2020-11-10T20:15:02Z amirouche: that's why I am not happy with my SRFI-180 (JSON) because I tried my best to avoid call/cc but the code with make-coroutine-generator is much much more readable.
2020-11-10T20:15:37Z jcowan: Whether call/cc is expensive depends on the implementation. On Chicken, the cost is smeared out over *all* procedure calls.
2020-11-10T20:16:21Z jcowan: aeth: OCaml has about 3000 libs
2020-11-10T20:16:37Z jcowan: the interest is that Scheme doesn't have enough libraries (except Racket)
2020-11-10T20:17:16Z jcowan: Even the 1500 CL libs is a lot more than Scheme has, despite the huge surge in SRFIs lately.
2020-11-10T20:19:06Z amirouche: I might over estimate the cost to implement shim to run CL/Haskell on Scheme
2020-11-10T20:19:25Z jcowan: Unlikely, I think (other than a simple bridge)
2020-11-10T20:19:39Z jcowan: A deep integration would be very hard, I think
2020-11-10T20:20:11Z jcowan: Kawa is designed to be able to provide CL, but nobody has done the work for it
2020-11-10T20:20:55Z amirouche: See Ruby, it does not have much libraries, basically, it has one very successful framework, ruby on rails.
2020-11-10T20:21:44Z amirouche: To quote someone I once knew: "we need heroes!"
2020-11-10T20:22:09Z jcowan: I'm not saying whether the desire for lots of libs is the Right Thing or not, just that some people do want it.
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2020-11-10T20:28:31Z Zipheir: There will always be more libs.
2020-11-10T20:36:40Z aeth: amirouche: well, libraries are never a perfect apples-to-apples comparison because you have stuff like Ruby, where probably more than half of their libraries are Rails plugins... and stuff like JS where "microlibraries" are (or at least were) popular
2020-11-10T20:37:52Z amirouche: yes sure.
2020-11-10T20:38:15Z amirouche: The difference with Scheme (and Python) is that past generation did not learn python at school
2020-11-10T20:38:24Z amirouche: sorry
2020-11-10T20:38:35Z amirouche: the different between Scheme and Python + Ruby, is that...
2020-11-10T20:38:45Z aeth: the library count still a good indication of how likely it is to find support for niche things...
2020-11-10T20:38:55Z amirouche: I mean, maybe people are tired of Scheme because school.
2020-11-10T20:39:14Z aeth: Practically every language will have SDL+OpenGL bindings for 2D/3D graphically accelerated stuff like games, or Qt support for the rest.
2020-11-10T20:40:11Z aeth: And virtually every language will have some way to run a web application on the server side because otherwise it's "useless"
2020-11-10T20:40:39Z aeth: But there aren't many other "universal" libraries
2020-11-10T20:41:36Z aeth: Maybe JSON, but that's basically a mandatory part of the web these days.
2020-11-10T20:42:49Z aeth: amirouche: I think Scheme in school tends to give the misconception that Lisps are all about the list data structure, while in reality they're just about the list data structure inside of macros and otherwise might not even touch lists, depending on the dialect and application.
2020-11-10T20:43:08Z aeth: Schools teach why Lisps/Schemes are different, and in the process make them seem esoteric and unable to run "normal" programs.
2020-11-10T20:45:13Z wasamasa: I remember flipping from "This is dumb, I'll have to make a cheatsheet for it" to "Wow, this could teach Python tricks" when going through implementing enough eval for a calculator
2020-11-10T20:46:50Z Zipheir: aeth: Yes, a lot of the mystique of Lisp relates to sort of old features that have been in some ways improved upon and aren't as critical now.
2020-11-10T20:47:06Z Zipheir: (Depending upon who you ask, of course.)
2020-11-10T20:49:04Z aeth: Zipheir: Right, this is Scheme, so a lot of that list processing stuff is most useful for Lisp/CL-style defmacro/define-macro unhygienic macros that are optional/deprecated
2020-11-10T20:49:28Z Zipheir: Macros are always pitched as a deeply amazing thing about Lisp, yet they still need improvement.  Self-modifying programs were not, I think, such an incredible idea.
2020-11-10T20:50:08Z amirouche: at the same time list processing is handy because it cover a lots of use-cases, and is easy to the mind. Whereas the alternative in say Python, is to learn about list... then dict, then class, then method, then OOP etc...
2020-11-10T20:50:17Z aeth: Zipheir: Self-modifying programs got mainstreamed with JIT. It's just automatic.
2020-11-10T20:50:50Z aeth: amirouche: Yeah, but most Lisps/Schemes have an equivalent to all of what Python has built-in, and more.
2020-11-10T20:50:59Z aeth: But they only teach lists...
2020-11-10T20:51:10Z Zipheir: aeth: Simple lists are massively useful, but as components in other structures.  Flat lists as a general data structure suck.
2020-11-10T20:51:17Z amirouche: yes, I mean to say the basic of lisp are more simple and more powerful hence good teaching material.
2020-11-10T20:53:26Z aeth: Zipheir: the problem with linked lists is how the modern cache/memory hierarchy works... and lists optimized to be vectors or whatever (e.g. CDR coding) tend not to be more popular over just directly using vectors.
2020-11-10T20:54:29Z Zipheir: It would be really sad if the future of computing had only one data structure (vectors).
2020-11-10T20:54:45Z Zipheir: I meant that lists are useful for constructing trees, etc.
2020-11-10T20:55:41Z Zipheir: "Lists are dead, long live lists!"
2020-11-10T20:56:17Z amirouche: It seems to me the only thing that remains to be done is more programs and libraries using scheme (along a universal cffi)
2020-11-10T20:57:10Z amirouche: btw, I used a CL program compiled with SBCL, then recompiled it with CCL to make it work with my use case.
2020-11-10T20:57:36Z amirouche: so I understand better why portable libraries, well in this case it is a portable program, is a good thing.
2020-11-10T20:57:42Z aeth: Zipheir: you can do trees with vectors! :-p
2020-11-10T20:57:59Z Zipheir: True.
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2020-11-10T20:58:13Z aeth: Zipheir: I think the problem is that the CPUs are optimized for benchmarks
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2020-11-10T20:58:23Z aeth: so you have to write your programs like the benchmarks are written if you want to really benefit...
2020-11-10T21:00:11Z Zipheir: Or you can choose correctness and simplicity over speed, and perhaps work on the Sufficiently Smart Complier which can flatten your tree structures to an isomorphic vector representation.
2020-11-10T21:03:42Z aeth: You can't choose correctness and simplicity over speed because practically every piece of your stack made the other decision. Your libraries, your language implementation, your language design, your OS, your *CPU*...
2020-11-10T21:04:22Z aeth: And if they didn't, then the performance penalties would probably add up too much
2020-11-10T21:04:30Z Zipheir: Well, the change has to start somewhere.
2020-11-10T21:04:39Z Zipheir: Be a part of the solution!
2020-11-10T21:04:41Z aeth: And the "sufficiently smart [optimizing] compiler" is going to be a nightmare to debug
2020-11-10T21:07:22Z Zipheir: I don't know.  That particular optimization doesn't sound particularly hairy.  A function taking a binary tree made of conses to a vector-encoding of the same structure sounds pretty plausible.
2020-11-10T21:08:36Z Zipheir: Contra dmr and ken, I think optimization should be the compiler's job, not the programmers.
2020-11-10T21:08:40Z Zipheir: *programmer's
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2020-11-11T07:04:32Z lockywolf: Riastradh, why does (paredit-mode) duplicate the feature of (electric-pair-mode)?
2020-11-11T07:04:54Z lockywolf: Like, inserting the closing parenthesis automatically.
2020-11-11T07:05:41Z aeth: I'm guessing it predates it by years
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2020-11-11T15:14:36Z Riastradh: lockywolf: Why does electric-pair-mode duplicate the feature of paredit, badly?
2020-11-11T15:15:14Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-11T15:18:42Z wasamasa: time to get the latest chibi-scheme
2020-11-11T15:19:06Z wasamasa: tried out snow-chibi for fun, found an error and discovered I haven't rebuilt in years
2020-11-11T15:19:27Z wasamasa: ok, maybe not years: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/pull/540
2020-11-11T15:19:45Z Riastradh: lockywolf: More seriously: as far as I know, paredit predated electric-pair-mode by several years (I started writing paredit in 2005), and aims to more cohesively resemble a structure editor.
2020-11-11T15:20:18Z wasamasa: now I get a different error :D
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2020-11-11T15:21:59Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2DN2
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2020-11-11T15:22:04Z wasamasa: it's interesting that this is an error
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2020-11-11T16:02:34Z Riastradh: electric-pair-mode first appeared in GNU Emacs 24, which wasn't released until 2012, seven years after paredit.
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2020-11-11T16:04:11Z wasamasa: could it be that the snow spec doesn't have a means of indicating what scheme implementations the library is compatible with?
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2020-11-11T16:15:18Z wasamasa: it's kind of interesting, for example (chibi term edit-line) apparently supports chibi and CHICKEN, but defines a no-op version on everything else
2020-11-11T16:15:34Z wasamasa: might be valuable to show that somehow
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2020-11-11T17:54:43Z amirouche: what if wasm was the universal ffi?
2020-11-11T17:55:01Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-11T17:56:59Z amirouche: "​Wasmer is an open-source runtime for executing WebAssembly on the Server."
2020-11-11T17:57:05Z amirouche: https://docs.wasmer.io/
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2020-11-11T17:57:46Z amirouche: Scheme bind a wasm runtime like wasmer, then rely on wasm builds of any program.
2020-11-11T17:57:58Z amirouche: s/program/library/
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2020-11-11T18:22:15Z jcowan: In Steme, the project I am working on, Scheme is the FFI language
2020-11-11T18:24:11Z jcowan: a Steme program starts in Scheme, and when it wants to do anything that violates type safety or purity, it needs help from Scheme
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2020-11-11T18:28:58Z Riastradh: `purity'
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2020-11-11T19:18:47Z jcowan: For present purposes, the inability to mutate any variables or data structures
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2020-11-11T20:08:54Z lisa3242: hi
2020-11-11T20:09:03Z lisa3242: this: (list (cdr '(3 + 2)) (car (reverse '(3 + 2))))
2020-11-11T20:09:09Z lisa3242: give this:
2020-11-11T20:09:19Z lisa3242: ((+ 2) 2)
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2020-11-11T20:09:35Z lisa3242: what would be the best way to flatten that inner list
2020-11-11T20:09:56Z Zipheir: Use append instead of list?
2020-11-11T20:10:11Z lisa3242: so that I get this instead (+ 2 2)
2020-11-11T20:10:15Z Zipheir: Wait, no.
2020-11-11T20:10:30Z lisa3242: (+ 2 . 2)
2020-11-11T20:10:34Z lisa3242: append gives the above
2020-11-11T20:10:37Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-11-11T20:10:56Z Zipheir: Tail-appending is a weird idiom.
2020-11-11T20:11:08Z lisa3242: I want to then evaluate the resulting list to add two and two
2020-11-11T20:11:23Z Zipheir: (append (cdr '(3 + 2)) (cddr (reverse '(3 + 2))))
2020-11-11T20:11:42Z Zipheir: Ugh, no, again.
2020-11-11T20:11:51Z Zipheir: (append (cdr '(3 + 2)) (cddr '(3 + 2)))
2020-11-11T20:12:02Z lisa3242: the first seemed to work
2020-11-11T20:12:15Z Zipheir: eval does that.
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2020-11-11T20:12:44Z Zipheir: rudybot: eval (eval '(+ 2 2))
2020-11-11T20:12:45Z lisa3242: (append (cdr '(3 + 2)) (cddr '(3 + 2))) give (+ 2 2)
2020-11-11T20:12:46Z rudybot: Zipheir: your scheme sandbox is ready
2020-11-11T20:12:46Z rudybot: Zipheir: ; Value: 4
2020-11-11T20:13:05Z lisa3242: Zipheir: thanks!
2020-11-11T20:13:32Z Zipheir: lisa3242: You're welcome.
2020-11-11T20:14:51Z lisa3242: (eval (append (cdr '(3 + 2)) (cddr (reverse '(3 + 2)))))
2020-11-11T20:14:57Z lisa3242: returns an error
2020-11-11T20:15:10Z lisa3242: do I have to un/quote something?
2020-11-11T20:15:18Z Zipheir: What kind of error?
2020-11-11T20:15:31Z lisa3242: eval has wrong number of args
2020-11-11T20:15:37Z ManDay: Zipheir, patron of incomprehensible questions, lol
2020-11-11T20:16:56Z Zipheir: Yeah, eval in recent Schemes has to be called with an environment.
2020-11-11T20:17:25Z lisa3242: It looks like racket just needs a quoted list: https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/eval.html
2020-11-11T20:17:31Z Zipheir: Usually you do *not* want to use eval.  You're probably going to write an evaluator for arithmetic expressions, right?
2020-11-11T20:17:38Z lisa3242: but this would not hold in guile scheme?
2020-11-11T20:17:46Z lisa3242: or other schemes?
2020-11-11T20:17:57Z ManDay: eval in guile also needs an env
2020-11-11T20:18:08Z ManDay: (info guile 6.18.4)
2020-11-11T20:18:28Z lisa3242: I'm just improving at the repl :)  no bigger plans at the moment
2020-11-11T20:18:29Z Zipheir: Exactly what an environment specifier looks like is implementation-defined, I believe.
2020-11-11T20:18:37Z lisa3242: just trying to convert infix to prefix
2020-11-11T20:18:44Z Zipheir: Aha.
2020-11-11T20:20:16Z lisa3242: @ManDay thanks
2020-11-11T20:20:18Z Zipheir: That should be very easy with strictly two-argument operators.
2020-11-11T20:20:22Z lisa3242: I'll take a look
2020-11-11T20:21:07Z lisa3242: looks like guile has local-eval too: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Local-Evaluation.html
2020-11-11T20:21:27Z lisa3242: which takes an env as second arg
2020-11-11T20:21:29Z Zipheir: If it's just arithmetic then there's no reason to bother with eval.  You can do (case operator ((+) (+ a b)) ((-) (- a b)) ...)
2020-11-11T20:22:10Z lisa3242: the reason to not bother with it would be better readability?
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2020-11-11T20:22:27Z lisa3242: or speed?
2020-11-11T20:22:42Z Zipheir: eval has almost unlimited power and is thus pretty dangerous.
2020-11-11T20:22:44Z lisa3242: I guess speed in this context does not matter...
2020-11-11T20:22:51Z wasamasa: eval the heavens
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2020-11-11T20:23:31Z Zipheir: You'll almost never see eval in a Scheme program.  (apply, OTOH, is quite common.)
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2020-11-11T20:23:53Z lisa3242: I'm just trying to understand eval in this context or repl improv
2020-11-11T20:24:01Z lisa3242: of*
2020-11-11T20:24:15Z lisa3242: when would one see eval in a scheme program?
2020-11-11T20:24:28Z lisa3242: where is eval in the wild?
2020-11-11T20:24:31Z Riastradh: when the program's purpose is to take a scheme program as user input and evaluate it
2020-11-11T20:24:36Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-11-11T20:24:56Z amirouche: lisa3242: it is rare.
2020-11-11T20:25:13Z amirouche: lisa3242: I use it in a scheme reading comprehension
2020-11-11T20:25:20Z lisa3242: could you give a concrete example
2020-11-11T20:25:25Z amirouche: lisa3242: https://scheme-lang.com/cons/
2020-11-11T20:25:25Z lisa3242: thanks amirouche
2020-11-11T20:25:49Z amirouche: if you type (+ 40 1 1) in the box it will give Ok answer
2020-11-11T20:25:51Z lisa3242: would you use eval if building a meta circular evaluator?
2020-11-11T20:26:00Z amirouche: lisa3242: the program is buggy it does not end well ;)
2020-11-11T20:26:03Z Riastradh: a meta circular evaluator is an _implementation_ of eval
2020-11-11T20:26:07Z amirouche: +1
2020-11-11T20:26:14Z lisa3242: Riastradh cool!
2020-11-11T20:26:40Z Zipheir: A tiny eval which can't do things like erase your filesystem.
2020-11-11T20:26:52Z amirouche: that too
2020-11-11T20:26:55Z lisa3242: amirouche is the above built with biwa?
2020-11-11T20:27:11Z amirouche: lisa3242: chibi-scheme via wasm build
2020-11-11T20:27:16Z lisa3242: cool!
2020-11-11T20:27:29Z Zipheir: amirouche: Wow.
2020-11-11T20:27:32Z amirouche: lisa3242: here is another made with gambit https://pre-srfi.github.io/webui/demos/03-todomvc/#
2020-11-11T20:27:34Z wasamasa: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/sandbox
2020-11-11T20:27:40Z lisa3242: has anyone tried building a javascript compiler with scheme?
2020-11-11T20:27:42Z wasamasa: the fuel concept is funny
2020-11-11T20:28:09Z jcowan: lisa3242: Compiling JS to what?
2020-11-11T20:28:18Z lisa3242: compiling scheme to js
2020-11-11T20:28:26Z lisa3242: like what the elm compiler does
2020-11-11T20:28:32Z lisa3242: or the purescript compiler
2020-11-11T20:28:38Z lisa3242: or reasonml
2020-11-11T20:28:41Z Zipheir: lisa3242: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/spock
2020-11-11T20:28:50Z amirouche: lisa3242: yes, that is what gambit does, it works well (or spock)
2020-11-11T20:28:55Z wasamasa: there are plenty lisp implementations running on top of JS
2020-11-11T20:29:31Z wasamasa: spock is acceptable, but more interesting for study as its code is clearly written and hackable
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2020-11-11T20:31:45Z amirouche: gambit js backend works but I think chibi is more user friendly, especially since you have a comprehensive R7RS libraries. Gambit makes it easy to tape into js libs tho
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2020-11-11T20:33:56Z amirouche: biwa is extremely user friendly especially since they added tail call recursion
2020-11-11T20:34:29Z amirouche: s/recursion/optimisation/
2020-11-11T20:34:48Z amirouche: it is an implementation of eval hence an interpreter
2020-11-11T20:34:58Z wasamasa: that sounds like it didn't always have that
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2020-11-11T20:37:46Z amirouche: it is recent
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2020-11-11T20:38:07Z jcowan: amirouche: as an optimization only, or in all cases?
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2020-11-11T20:41:55Z amirouche: maybe it is not the case, I do not find it anymore
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2020-11-11T20:50:55Z amirouche: forget what I said about biwascheme, or ask the maintainer
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2020-11-11T21:19:43Z wims: im trying to build a lambda expression from three lists, i got a list with variable names, a list with values and a list with the body. when i try to put them together i get an error from the DrRacket REPL tho
2020-11-11T21:19:44Z wims: https://paste.debian.net/1171931/
2020-11-11T21:20:08Z wims: does anyone know how i can put together my lambda expression?
2020-11-11T21:20:27Z wasamasa: the + symbol is not the + procedure
2020-11-11T21:20:38Z wims: hmm right
2020-11-11T21:20:53Z wasamasa: so you'll need to use quasiquote or forego quoting
2020-11-11T21:22:02Z wims: thanks, ill look up quasiquote
2020-11-11T21:22:28Z wasamasa: rudybot: eval `(,+ a b)
2020-11-11T21:22:29Z rudybot: wasamasa: your sandbox is ready
2020-11-11T21:22:29Z rudybot: wasamasa: ; Value: '(#<procedure:+> a b)
2020-11-11T21:22:58Z wims: excellent
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2020-11-11T21:54:47Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-11-11T22:16:58Z lisa3242: amirouche and all: thanks for all the help
2020-11-11T22:17:15Z lisa3242: does anybody log this room?
2020-11-11T22:18:24Z aeth: strangely, CCL (a CL implementation) does. https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/
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2020-11-11T22:18:48Z lisa3242: unfortunately I used kiwi chat and all my history has been updated to messages of people joining and leaving the room
2020-11-11T22:19:19Z aeth: netsplit. My client hides them when they're huge, e.g. I got (+165 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
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2020-11-11T22:19:30Z aeth: unfortunately there were still like a dozen different ones of those
2020-11-11T22:19:40Z lisa3242: I got them from the ccl log
2020-11-11T22:19:57Z lisa3242: thanks aeth
2020-11-11T22:20:08Z aeth: you're welcome
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2020-11-11T22:24:38Z lisa3242: how can I add the first element of a list to all members of that same list?
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2020-11-11T22:25:18Z lisa3242: (add-first-to-all '(5 3 4))
2020-11-11T22:25:36Z lisa3242: ;; (10 8 9)
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2020-11-11T22:26:05Z lisa3242: (add-first-to-all (reverse '(5 3 4)))
2020-11-11T22:26:20Z lisa3242: ;; (8 7 12)
2020-11-11T22:33:36Z lisa3242: any help/hints are greatly appreciated
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2020-11-11T22:35:08Z Zipheir: lisa3242: (let ((y (car xs))) (map (lambda (x) (+ y x)) xs))
2020-11-11T22:35:37Z Zipheir: Wrap that in (define (add-first-to-all xs) ...), of course.
2020-11-11T22:36:02Z Zipheir: Presumably you'd want to check that xs is non-empty first, as well.
2020-11-11T22:36:35Z Blukunfando: But that’ll yield (8 7 9) in the latter example, not (8 7 12).
2020-11-11T22:37:06Z Zipheir: What?
2020-11-11T22:37:36Z Zipheir: rudybot: eval (map (lambda (x) (+ 5 x)) '(5 3 4))
2020-11-11T22:37:36Z rudybot: Zipheir: ; Value: '(10 8 9)
2020-11-11T22:38:11Z lisa3242: Blukunfando sorry that was my quick and bad arithmetic, wow ha
2020-11-11T22:38:18Z Zipheir: lisa's example seems to be off.
2020-11-11T22:38:31Z lisa3242: the output of the latter is wrong
2020-11-11T22:38:41Z lisa3242: Blukunfando is correct on what it should be
2020-11-11T22:39:00Z lisa3242: thanks Zipheir for the example
2020-11-11T22:39:06Z Zipheir: yw
2020-11-11T22:41:42Z Zipheir: I find myself wanting to put a `cdr' in there somewhere...
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2020-11-11T22:47:40Z lisa3242: Zipheir would be the way to evaluate the above without a define and without a let?
2020-11-11T22:47:44Z lisa3242: using only lambda
2020-11-11T22:48:19Z lisa3242: I'm just trying to understand the syntax for how to evaluate it that way for pedogogical purposes
2020-11-11T22:48:39Z Zipheir: Well, just translate the procedure definition and let into lambdas.
2020-11-11T22:48:40Z lisa3242: i.e. let over lambda
2020-11-11T22:48:58Z Zipheir: So, e.g. (let ((x 5)) x) is just ((lambda (x) x) 5)
2020-11-11T22:49:30Z Zipheir: And (define (foo x) x) is just syntactic sugar for (define foo (lambda (x) x))
2020-11-11T22:49:41Z Zipheir: Give it a shot. :)
2020-11-11T22:50:13Z Zipheir: Agreed, it's a good exercise.
2020-11-11T22:50:58Z lisa3242: thanks! I'll be back in a few. I'll give a try :)
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2020-11-11T23:18:21Z lisa3242: Zipheir if the lambda is going to be the function give to map how do I keep the (car xs) from changing in:
2020-11-11T23:18:23Z lisa3242: (let ((y (car xs))) (map (lambda (x) (+ y x)) xs))
2020-11-11T23:20:08Z Zipheir: There's no modification of the list here, so (car xs) will never change.
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2020-11-11T23:20:49Z Zipheir: So for instance this is equally valid: (map (lambda (x) (+ (car xs) x)) xs).
2020-11-11T23:24:18Z Zipheir: rudybot: eval (let ((xs (list 1 2 3))) (map (lambda (_) (car xs)) xs))
2020-11-11T23:24:18Z rudybot: Zipheir: ; Value: '(1 1 1)
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2020-11-11T23:24:51Z lisa3242: how do I supply the argument to (map (lambda (x) (+ (car xs) x)) xs)?
2020-11-11T23:25:08Z lisa3242: supply an argument*
2020-11-11T23:25:20Z Zipheir: You mean how do you bind xs?
2020-11-11T23:25:27Z lisa3242: (map (lambda (x) (+ (car xs) x)) '(3 4 5))
2020-11-11T23:25:38Z lisa3242: I tried the above but it failed
2020-11-11T23:25:44Z lisa3242: yes how do I bind xs?
2020-11-11T23:25:59Z lisa3242: it failed with unbound variable xs
2020-11-11T23:26:01Z Zipheir: Lambda the Ultimate. :)
2020-11-11T23:26:22Z Zipheir: (define add-to-all (lambda (xs) (let ((y (car xs))) (map ...)))
2020-11-11T23:26:29Z Zipheir: s/$/)/
2020-11-11T23:27:17Z Zipheir: Then (add-to-all '(3 4 5)) should work.
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2020-11-11T23:45:40Z lisa3242: what does s/$/)/ mean in this context?
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2020-11-11T23:46:34Z Zipheir: Hah, I was just using ed/vi/vim syntax to correct my typo.
2020-11-11T23:47:12Z Zipheir: You'll see that frequently on IRC, at least outside of #emacs.
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2020-11-11T23:58:45Z lisa3242: so it means substitute end of line for a right parens?
2020-11-12T00:01:46Z Zipheir: Yes, sort of an abuse of the idea of substitution, but, there you have it.
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2020-11-12T00:16:08Z lisa3242: Zipheir, what do you use to edit scheme in vim?
2020-11-12T00:16:27Z lisa3242: do you use paredit mode for vim?
2020-11-12T00:17:01Z lisa3242: how do you slurp and barf in vim?
2020-11-12T00:17:12Z Zipheir: Hah, nothing that fancy.  I actually use vis https://github.com/martanne/vis or just ed.
2020-11-12T00:17:17Z Zipheir: Ew.
2020-11-12T00:17:23Z lisa3242: I've started to use vis also
2020-11-12T00:17:36Z Zipheir: Oh, cool, small world.
2020-11-12T00:17:36Z lisa3242: I'm even more curious now
2020-11-12T00:17:57Z Zipheir: There is apparently a paredit for vis, but it's absolutely massive.
2020-11-12T00:18:08Z lisa3242: I use x/\(/ p in command mode
2020-11-12T00:18:41Z lisa3242: I installed it but it seems buggy in places
2020-11-12T00:19:16Z Zipheir: parkour, right?  That was my experience, too.
2020-11-12T00:19:40Z lisa3242: Do you use any sam regex for editing scheme?
2020-11-12T00:19:43Z lisa3242: yes, parkour
2020-11-12T00:20:19Z lisa3242: I've been curious to see how to create a sam regex vocabulary to edit scheme alla paredit or lispy
2020-11-12T00:20:28Z lisa3242: i.e. to get similar features
2020-11-12T00:21:25Z Zipheir: Hmm, I don't think I have anything Scheme-specific.  sam sregexes are just very generally useful.
2020-11-12T00:22:21Z Zipheir: x/[a-z]+/g/foo/v/.{4,}/ is a nice trick (from Pike's sam tutorial) for finding all occurrences of 'foo'.
2020-11-12T00:22:37Z Zipheir: Selecting, I mean.
2020-11-12T00:24:50Z lisa3242: x/\(/ p mimics lispy-ace-paren https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil-collection/blob/9ab6e391bdbb11a98a56f921aea6513fa8663c30/modes/lispy/evil-collection-lispy.el#L107
2020-11-12T00:24:50Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/JFclzOaRzW
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2020-11-12T00:28:30Z lisa3242: approx. mimics it
2020-11-12T00:28:49Z Zipheir: Nifty.
2020-11-12T00:29:07Z lisa3242: Zipheir what was your approach for learning sam?
2020-11-12T00:29:34Z lisa3242: man page for sam?
2020-11-12T00:29:49Z lisa3242: vis source code implementation of sam?
2020-11-12T00:29:53Z Zipheir: That, plus Rob Pike's original paper and tutorial, I think.
2020-11-12T00:29:57Z lisa3242: any other resources you used?
2020-11-12T00:30:28Z lisa3242: the one linked here? http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/sam_lang_tutorial/
2020-11-12T00:30:31Z Zipheir: Tutorial: http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/sam_lang_tutorial/sam_tut.pdf
2020-11-12T00:30:40Z Zipheir: Jinx, yes. :)
2020-11-12T00:31:37Z lisa3242: is there another paper besides that one?
2020-11-12T00:31:40Z lisa3242: :)
2020-11-12T00:31:51Z lisa3242: you mentioned the tutorial and the paper
2020-11-12T00:32:08Z Zipheir: I think this is it, in HTML form: http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/sam/
2020-11-12T00:32:19Z lisa3242: "x/foo/ =" doesn't work in vis
2020-11-12T00:32:36Z lisa3242: is there anything else not implemented in vis from the original sam?
2020-11-12T00:33:46Z lisa3242: It's a display command
2020-11-12T00:33:48Z Zipheir: I'm not sure.  Marc-Andre was never very clear on specifying how much of the sam sregex system he adopted.
2020-11-12T00:33:55Z lisa3242: =    Print the line address and character address of the range.
2020-11-12T00:34:10Z lisa3242: it's mentioned in the sam man but it failed when I tried
2020-11-12T00:34:57Z lisa3242: do you understand the lex system in lua?
2020-11-12T00:35:23Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's missing in vis.  F1 will give you a full listing of everything vis supports, I think.
2020-11-12T00:35:30Z lisa3242: I have a project in the backburner to add syntax highlighting for nix lang
2020-11-12T00:35:38Z Zipheir: The LPEG stuff?  It's a little hairy.
2020-11-12T00:35:41Z lisa3242: yeah
2020-11-12T00:36:01Z lisa3242: I imagine nix should not be crazy difficult to implement
2020-11-12T00:36:21Z Zipheir: It's documented at http://www.inf.puc-rio.br/~roberto/lpeg/
2020-11-12T00:36:23Z lisa3242: A lexer for whitespace language would be nice too :)
2020-11-12T00:36:40Z lisa3242: but actually vis can manage that already sort of...
2020-11-12T00:37:18Z lisa3242: set show-tabs show-newlines show-spaces
2020-11-12T00:37:39Z lisa3242: I mean this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)
2020-11-12T00:38:10Z lisa3242: but vis would still need to tokenize and highlight the imp commands of whitespace
2020-11-12T00:38:48Z lisa3242: like done here: https://github.com/rolf007/ws.vim/blob/ca59db78900544d5afe013affb373c01529938a2/syntax/ws.vim#L17
2020-11-12T00:39:08Z Zipheir: It's probably doable.
2020-11-12T00:39:13Z lisa3242: Zipheir thanks for the docs
2020-11-12T00:39:57Z lisa3242: Turing would agree :)
2020-11-12T00:40:12Z Zipheir: One project I intend to finish at some point is a vis variant using chibi-scheme instead of Lua.
2020-11-12T00:40:40Z lisa3242: bad joke I know ha
2020-11-12T00:40:52Z lisa3242: Zipheir that would be great!
2020-11-12T00:41:01Z lisa3242: why not fennel?
2020-11-12T00:41:15Z Zipheir: vis basically just uses Lua for syntax highlighting, but with a deep chibi embedding it would be closer to a simple Emacs, I think.
2020-11-12T00:41:31Z Zipheir: Hmm, I know that name.
2020-11-12T00:42:30Z Zipheir: Interesting.
2020-11-12T00:43:30Z lisa3242: but maybe a proper scheme is nicer or maybe it doesn't matter...
2020-11-12T00:43:30Z Zipheir: Aside from the lack of hygienic macros, Fennel looks very Scheme-like.
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2020-11-12T04:06:31Z jcowan: I'd like to be a sam user, but there are isssues....   What is vis?
2020-11-12T04:10:24Z Riastradh: % head -c 16 < /dev/urandom | vis; echo
2020-11-12T04:10:24Z Riastradh: \M-CT\M-XT\M-!\M^G\M-D\M-\?\M-q?R\M-,\M^P\M-C'
2020-11-12T04:13:17Z foof: $ whatis vis
2020-11-12T04:13:17Z foof: vis (3bsd)           - visually encode characters
2020-11-12T04:13:17Z foof: vis (1)              - a highly efficient text editor
2020-11-12T04:13:38Z Riastradh: i'm a highly efficient text editor
2020-11-12T04:15:41Z foof: I'd rather have a highly efficient srfi editor.
2020-11-12T04:16:56Z Riastradh: i am not a highly efficient srfi editor but maybe jcowan is
2020-11-12T04:17:37Z lockywolf: foof, could you check the pull request to scheme-complete?
2020-11-12T04:18:24Z jcowan: "Justice is swift in the State."  "Justice is *accurate* in Quinn Tuft."  --Larry Niven, _The Integral Trees_
2020-11-12T04:19:04Z jcowan: Where is Arthur lacking in efficiency, anyhow?
2020-11-12T04:19:31Z Riastradh: dunno, I forgot who the SRFI editors are.
2020-11-12T04:20:19Z foof: nowhere, I was just ranking (> aag riastradh)
2020-11-12T04:22:25Z Riastradh: arthur is larger than I am, yes, I think.
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2020-11-12T04:23:38Z foof: lockywolf: unit tests fail, I'll revert
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2020-11-12T04:25:08Z lockywolf: foof, sorry, I forgot the last push
2020-11-12T04:26:18Z lockywolf: the tests are those in ./run-tests.sh?
2020-11-12T04:30:00Z foof: yes, make test should work
2020-11-12T04:30:00Z lockywolf: Seem to pass on my machine. Is the output of the tests available anywhere?
2020-11-12T04:30:49Z foof: seems caddr isn't part of the core emacs version I'm using, and I was pulling it in via cl.  cl-caddr works.
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2020-11-12T04:43:38Z foof: ... but still the string-cursor tests fail for me, reverting for now.
2020-11-12T04:44:13Z foof: using: GNU Emacs 25.2.2 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.21) of 2017-09-23, modified by Debian
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2020-11-12T05:05:38Z lockywolf: caddr is available in 27.1
2020-11-12T05:05:58Z lockywolf: I'll try to test on 25.2
2020-11-12T05:08:25Z foof: I'm on Ubuntu 18.04.  I could try to upgrade.
2020-11-12T05:08:35Z foof: (dist-)
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2020-11-12T05:09:25Z foof: ... although this irc client is on Emacs 26.1.
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2020-11-12T11:25:40Z ManDay: Is there a particularly intelligent pattern to deal with nested iterations where each iteration may behave differently depending on the current step of the parent ones? Naively, I'd pass the state of parent ones down into the children as arguments, but I thought maybe there is some ingenious and elegant solution to that by introspecting the stack? (Although this could, in principle, be asked for
2020-11-12T11:25:42Z ManDay: anything where an argument is passed into a function)
2020-11-12T11:28:01Z ManDay: If the child iteration only depends on its immediate parent, I can easily realize this by a closure...
2020-11-12T11:28:42Z ManDay: but if the child iteration depends on many of its anscestors this feels like it can become a very complex endevour
2020-11-12T11:33:16Z ManDay: hm, maybe it's not that complex, but I've never done anything of that scale with closures... guess I'll give it a shot but if anyone has an advice, I'll appreciate it
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2020-11-12T12:13:59Z lockywolf: ManDay, I do not really understand you, but would "eager comprehensions" be somehow solving at least a part of your problem?
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2020-11-12T12:18:54Z ManDay: lockywolf: no I don't think so, but thanks. I'm not sure I understand myself, either ;o)
2020-11-12T12:19:23Z ManDay: just poking around, to see if there is a certain approach that I should take
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2020-11-12T12:52:46Z amirouche: ManDay: it looks like a state machine
2020-11-12T12:52:59Z amirouche: (but what computer program does not look like a state machine)
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2020-11-12T13:08:57Z ski: ManDay : perhaps you could pass down a "context" list, and for each nesting cons another element in front of it
2020-11-12T13:09:23Z ski: (or maybe use a vector)
2020-11-12T13:13:48Z ski: perhaps section 4 "Power Loops" (page 49) of chapter 2 "Control Structures" of the book "Advanced Programming Language Design" by Raphael Finkel in 1996 at <https://web.archive.org/web/20150522052725/http://www.nondot.org:80/sabre/Mirrored/AdvProgLangDesign/> has some similarity to what you're asking for ?
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2020-11-12T13:35:45Z ManDay: Uhm yes, I guess it's somewhat related, but well
2020-11-12T13:36:33Z ManDay: yes, passing down things is how I do it now. i think any other way would eventually be semantically equivalent but just more convoluted
2020-11-12T13:36:42Z ManDay: so better go for the simple straightforward approach
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2020-11-12T15:57:42Z Riastradh: ManDay: Can you be more specific about what you're doing?
2020-11-12T16:00:36Z ManDay: Riastradh: It would probably a waste of time to describe it in prosa to a detail which would allow you to describe the most elegant solution. I can show you the implementation (eventually should boild down to a few dozenlines) when it's done. In short, you have a system of equations and the iteration is all possible combinations of substituting equations into eachother (vis a bipartite graph,
2020-11-12T16:00:38Z ManDay: node-types: variables, equations), so you iterate over subtrees (there are boundary constraints which eventually reduce the set of possible substitutions)
2020-11-12T16:01:36Z ManDay: the latter reduction (and thus termination of recursion) is what makes the iteration over a subtree depend on the larger tree in which it is being iterated
2020-11-12T16:01:52Z ManDay: (it implies cancellations, redundancies and so forth)
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2020-11-12T16:06:40Z wasamasa: not sure which approach is nicer to deal with rest args (as seen in srfi-125): named let loop over them or using case-lambda and apply?
2020-11-12T16:07:16Z wasamasa: case-lambda seemed far more elegant until I found I need to use apply over and over again
2020-11-12T16:07:28Z Riastradh: (also foof-loop <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.scm> and nested-foof-loop <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.scm> is better than SRFI 42 `eager comprehensions')
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2020-11-12T16:15:20Z ManDay: Riastradh: I'm not sure what I'm looking at, but I really like the occurrence of the MAGICAL MYSTERY LIST !
2020-11-12T16:16:51Z ManDay: Ah, there is http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/foof-loop.txt
2020-11-12T16:17:19Z Riastradh: also https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.txt
2020-11-12T16:18:23Z ManDay: The introduction sounds interesting
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2020-11-12T21:31:13Z wasamasa: amirouche: I'm going over the state part of the srfi-167 specification now and wonder why it must be mutable
2020-11-12T21:31:33Z wasamasa: amirouche: it's set once, then read by using an accessor
2020-11-12T21:32:12Z wasamasa: amirouche: which doesn't prevent use of srfi-146 as immutable alternative
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2020-11-12T21:45:10Z wasamasa: amirouche: generally it seems like both the srfi-167 and 168 document could use errata because some parts don't match up
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2020-11-13T08:09:25Z amirouche: wasamasa: the state is mutable and part of transaction because it can be changed during the transaction
2020-11-13T08:09:46Z amirouche: wasamasa: the state is not used as part of srfi-168
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2020-11-13T08:14:01Z amirouche: wasamasa: what does not match up ?
2020-11-13T08:14:50Z wasamasa: the srfi-168 example code uses (okvs "/data" #t), the srfi-167 spec shows (okvs-open home [config])
2020-11-13T08:15:04Z wasamasa: name is different, config data structure is different
2020-11-13T08:16:32Z wasamasa: why does the documentation for (nstore engine prefix items) explain what database is?
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2020-11-13T08:24:00Z amirouche: "DATABASE is an okvs record instance from SRFI 167."
2020-11-13T08:24:08Z amirouche: that is a mistake
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2020-11-13T09:00:10Z siraben: Do I have to implement `letrec-syntax` and `define-syntax` separately in an R5RS interpreter?
2020-11-13T09:00:47Z siraben: Or can I define one in terms of another?
2020-11-13T09:06:41Z foof: obviously you can't define the latter in terms of the former :)
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2020-11-13T09:34:53Z siraben: Heh, what about the former in terms of the latter?
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2020-11-13T09:35:20Z siraben: I'm trying to bootstrap R5RS Scheme, so less work is ideal
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2020-11-13T11:21:24Z siraben: Oh found the paper I needed, https://legacy.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/LaSC-5-4-pp295-326.pdf
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2020-11-13T13:07:49Z amirouche: Zipheir: re srfi-135 with chiken, how are displayed textual in the REPL?
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2020-11-14T22:59:14Z conjunctive: Hi, is it possible to implement a macro that attaches properties to a string literal? Would like to extend a macro I'm writing that uses define-property to support data literal inputs.
2020-11-14T23:02:26Z conjunctive: Happy to have it expand to some sort of binding. But fairly new to Scheme's macro system, unsure on the right approach.
2020-11-14T23:03:06Z wasamasa: properties?
2020-11-14T23:03:40Z wasamasa: this isn't JS
2020-11-14T23:04:21Z conjunctive: wasamasa: Right, I'm referring to define-property in Chez.
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2020-11-14T23:06:02Z wasamasa: well, in that case it's time to study chez docs as that's in no standard or srfi
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2020-11-14T23:07:07Z Zipheir: The tough part is, I guess, determining whether the thing you're tagging is a string literal.
2020-11-14T23:07:31Z wasamasa: > Both id and key must be identifiers.
2020-11-14T23:07:34Z wasamasa: so that's out
2020-11-14T23:07:46Z wasamasa: a string literal is no identifier
2020-11-14T23:13:21Z conjunctive: wasamasa: I believe there's a draft as SRFI-213.
2020-11-14T23:13:29Z conjunctive: As a broader question, is something like syntax-case able to identify a literal construction, as opposed to an identifier?
2020-11-14T23:13:52Z wasamasa: it still speaks of identifiers
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2020-11-14T23:16:55Z Zipheir: conjunctive: Almost certainly not.
2020-11-14T23:18:08Z Zipheir: Unless someone (Oleg?) has found some black magic to do it.
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2020-11-14T23:19:46Z Zipheir: There's identifier?, but that wouldn't help with detecting literals.
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2020-11-14T23:30:39Z Zipheir: But then, shouldn't that work?  If identifier? is false of a syntax object, doesn't that imply that it's a literal of some sort?
2020-11-14T23:30:42Z Zipheir: Hmm.
2020-11-14T23:33:13Z conjunctive: Zipheir: I think so! Will give that a try. When it is not an identifier, what would you use to introduce a compile-time binding?
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2020-11-14T23:36:40Z Zipheir: I'm not sure what "compile-time binding" means here.
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2020-11-14T23:42:19Z conjunctive: Zipheir: Fair! If I have (g (f "foo")), where g & f are both macros, and I need to pass a property about "foo" from f to g. With the happy-path of having an identifier, I can just use define-property. But since (not (identifier? "foo")), I'm wondering how I can create a temporary binding for "foo", so that I can define & pass a property about "foo" from the macro f to g.
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2020-11-14T23:47:38Z Zipheir: conjunctive: It depends on what kind of information you want to pass between macros.  Obviously you don't get any help from a property system here.  Some kind of CPS or stack-machine-style rewrite of g ior f might enable you to do what you want.
2020-11-14T23:48:21Z Zipheir: Oleg's pmatch is a beautiful example of CPS with syntax-rules: https://github.com/webyrd/quines/blob/master/pmatch.scm
2020-11-14T23:49:30Z Zipheir: And JRM's syntax-rules guide has some examples of "stack-machine style": http://ix.io/2q9Z
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2020-11-14T23:53:36Z Zipheir: Obviously those are syntax-rules approaches, and they lose the compositionality of f and g.
2020-11-15T00:00:31Z amirouche: conjunctive: why not a hash-table?
2020-11-15T00:02:51Z Riastradh: conjunctive: Can you describe what you're trying to do more broadly?
2020-11-15T00:03:44Z amirouche: +1
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2020-11-15T00:11:48Z Zipheir: amirouche: Are you suggesting syntax-level hash-tables?
2020-11-15T00:11:54Z Zipheir: Because that would be a moby hack.
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2020-11-15T04:19:50Z conjunctive: Thanks for the suggestions Zipheir & amirouche.
2020-11-15T04:20:12Z conjunctive: Riastradh: I was working with an idea based on https://gist.github.com/dharmatech/585469
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2020-11-15T09:31:54Z wasamasa: amirouche: I've looked a bit into permissive licensed key-value stores and I think I'll side with lmdb over sophia, the latter doesn't seem as mature and well-documented
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2020-11-15T09:32:37Z amirouche: lmdb use mmap
2020-11-15T09:33:05Z amirouche: there is fork of lmdb at https://github.com/erthink/libmdbx/
2020-11-15T09:33:19Z amirouche: I agree about sophia
2020-11-15T09:34:18Z wasamasa: the documentation doesn't seem to be up-to-date and gives me conflicting information with regards to memory management
2020-11-15T09:34:26Z wasamasa: which is way worse than engrish
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2020-11-15T11:56:12Z alelos: Hi, I'm trying to use the import form to load some library code, for example (import (scheme) (srfi :1)) but I'm getting a clash between multiple definition of symbols, which is valid given that some forms are defined in both libraries. What is the proper way to do the import? Can I import only some symbols? This is ChezScheme
2020-11-15T12:02:30Z ManDay: alelos: In Guile there is an (only) form, e.g.:
2020-11-15T12:03:05Z ManDay: (import (only (guile) pk)) ; imports only pk, from guile
2020-11-15T12:03:12Z ManDay: i think this might just be RnRS
2020-11-15T12:04:29Z mdhughes: It is. I do a lot of (only (srfi s1 lists) delete drop-right last)
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2020-11-15T13:46:08Z alelos: thanks, (only) works in chez as well :)
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2020-11-15T14:46:22Z ManDay: alelos: great. Note there are are other qualifiers such as "except" which can do the inverse: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-10.html#node_idx_268
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2020-11-15T19:21:34Z alelos: ManDay: Thanks for the link, 'except' can come handly as well :)
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2020-11-16T10:03:12Z amirouche: wasamasa: what's up regarding lmdb?
2020-11-16T10:04:47Z wasamasa: I wrote some test code corresponding to the srfi-167 API, so far all cases work with the C5 lmdb egg
2020-11-16T10:04:55Z wasamasa: I ended up writing strinc without knowing about it
2020-11-16T10:05:35Z wasamasa: I wonder though whether your strinc will work on a "\xff\xff" string
2020-11-16T10:05:48Z wasamasa: and your implementation of reverse/offset/limit using srfi-1
2020-11-16T10:06:09Z wasamasa: because (take '() 2) errors out
2020-11-16T10:06:16Z wasamasa: and databases don't ever do that
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2020-11-16T10:24:11Z amirouche: strinc does not work with \xff\xff
2020-11-16T10:24:19Z amirouche: it should error in that case
2020-11-16T10:24:48Z amirouche: reverse is supposed to be implemented with the lmdb iterator not srfi-1
2020-11-16T10:24:55Z amirouche: same for offset and limit
2020-11-16T10:25:19Z amirouche: in the sample implementation there is no iterator, it was "quickwin" to use srfi-1
2020-11-16T10:26:03Z wasamasa: well, the egg I'm using only exposes a fold primitive
2020-11-16T10:26:27Z wasamasa: and even if there were a cursor API, I don't see the lmdb API exposing reverse iteration
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2020-11-16T11:34:32Z wasamasa: actually, nevermind, it does expose going backwards with the cursor
2020-11-16T11:34:55Z wasamasa: maybe I'll do a proper implementation based on the low-level API for my second attempt
2020-11-16T11:35:08Z wasamasa: but this one is good enough, especially considering the speed of this thing
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2020-11-16T16:38:38Z amirouche: great :)
2020-11-16T16:39:54Z amirouche: srfi-167 and srfi-168 are not the first version of that project, before that I have rewritten the code 2 or 3 times, but I was not into R7RS before nor srfi
2020-11-16T16:40:09Z amirouche: I guess the pre-srfi org on github will help future srfi proposals
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2020-11-16T16:52:11Z ManDay: For god's sake... I have had it with Guile... Any good Scheme implementation in Gentoo you know?
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2020-11-16T16:53:05Z ManDay: With readable error messages, that is
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2020-11-16T16:57:46Z amirouche: chicken?
2020-11-16T16:58:06Z ManDay: ok.
2020-11-16T16:58:10Z amirouche: maybe :)
2020-11-16T16:58:22Z ManDay: everything is better than Guile, I suppose. almost
2020-11-16T16:59:32Z amirouche: I saw some error message done by chicken it was very readable.
2020-11-16T17:00:30Z ManDay: hm, a bit outdated, though
2020-11-16T17:00:42Z ManDay: upstream says 5.2.0, portage has it at 4.13.0
2020-11-16T17:04:00Z ManDay: 3 years ago? oh dear
2020-11-16T17:06:38Z gwatt: You could try racket. If you want to stick to close to a scheme rnrs standard you can use "#lang r6rs" or "#lang r7rs"
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2020-11-16T17:08:11Z wasamasa: I suspect it would be better to know what gentoo offers in the first place
2020-11-16T17:08:27Z wasamasa: compiling CHICKEN is simple and recommended to avoid the -sudo switch when installing eggs
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2020-11-16T17:10:11Z taylan: ManDay: Guile is by now one of the more feature-rich and high-performing implementations, just saying ;-)
2020-11-16T17:10:59Z amirouche: taylan: do you have a link to latest benchmark as run by wingo?
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2020-11-16T17:11:31Z amirouche: comparing different implementations?
2020-11-16T17:12:50Z Riastradh: taylan: how fast it reports illegible error messages about your failure to use its features doesn't really strike me as a selling point
2020-11-16T17:13:17Z Riastradh: ManDay: Have you filed any issues or talked in #guile about the error messages?  Maybe it is a fixable problem.
2020-11-16T17:13:17Z mdhughes: Chez is my preference for speed and utility. Error messages are OK, but you're better off just not writing errors in the first place!
2020-11-16T17:13:33Z wasamasa: true that
2020-11-16T17:13:56Z wasamasa: taylan: ohi
2020-11-16T17:13:56Z ManDay: Riastradh: Last time I tried to send to guile-devel@ but my message never made it. They don't seem to have a bugtracker
2020-11-16T17:14:06Z wasamasa: taylan: good to see you're not dead
2020-11-16T17:14:08Z mdhughes: CHICKEN has some great libraries, but the performance is mediocre. It's not as bad as an interpreter, but it takes a long time to compile a fast binary.
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2020-11-16T17:14:20Z taylan: wasamasa: LOL, just busy with various things
2020-11-16T17:14:34Z wasamasa: implementing srfi-0 to srfi-100 in r7rs?
2020-11-16T17:14:43Z taylan: haha, I wish
2020-11-16T17:14:56Z taylan: soul-destroying "real-life" programming
2020-11-16T17:15:19Z wasamasa: ah yes
2020-11-16T17:15:24Z wasamasa: I'm glad I'm out of that
2020-11-16T17:15:39Z Riastradh: ManDay: Tried asking in #guile about that?
2020-11-16T17:15:39Z taylan: amirouche: I think the benchmarks weren't by wingo...  I saw them the other day but don't have the link and forgot who hosts them.
2020-11-16T17:15:52Z taylan: Riastradh: yeah it's being discussed in #guile
2020-11-16T17:16:01Z ManDay: Riastradh: Yes, I came back here frustrated ;/
2020-11-16T17:16:09Z ManDay: i'm talking there
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2020-11-16T17:16:44Z wasamasa: come to think of it, I didn't run into enough errors with other scheme implementations to judge them
2020-11-16T17:16:53Z wasamasa: but I remember kawa not being aggrevating despite java
2020-11-16T17:17:01Z amirouche: taylan: apparantly the non official benchmark are unfair: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks/issues/44
2020-11-16T17:17:08Z amirouche: taylan: there is longer thread but I need to go
2020-11-16T17:17:08Z wasamasa: probably because it warns you early on potential issues
2020-11-16T17:18:16Z wasamasa: and given enough type annotations for things the compiler can't figure out itself, that fixes a bunch of bugs you tend running into with dynamically typed programs
2020-11-16T17:20:20Z wasamasa: let's see: https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/search?q=scheme
2020-11-16T17:20:29Z wasamasa: wow, sigscheme, never heard of it
2020-11-16T17:21:02Z wasamasa: and not of escm either
2020-11-16T17:21:41Z wasamasa: ManDay: perhaps you could join that gentoo scheme project thing and update all the packages?
2020-11-16T17:22:01Z ManDay: wasamasa: Indeed, I should and I will
2020-11-16T17:22:27Z ManDay: It was only 2 weeks ago or so that I could decide to become a proxy-maint, I just didn't get around to it
2020-11-16T17:22:48Z taylan: amirouche: well Guile 3 is still near the top...
2020-11-16T17:23:04Z mdhughes: gambit/gerbil really does rock for speed, I just end up spending twice as long to do anything because the docs are incomplete.
2020-11-16T17:23:26Z taylan: FWIW I'm also unhappy whenever I have to deal with Guile stack traces, but I don't know how much it's just my ignorance
2020-11-16T17:23:34Z mdhughes: "How does this work? I guess I'm reading source code for the next half hour."
2020-11-16T17:23:48Z wasamasa: does gerbil still insist on having a main function tied to argv?
2020-11-16T17:25:11Z mdhughes: I don't know about insist, but I write every program that way anyway…
2020-11-16T17:25:42Z wasamasa: meaning, you can't define a main function that doesn't confirm to that signature
2020-11-16T17:25:57Z mdhughes: I believe there's an option to not do it.
2020-11-16T17:26:52Z mdhughes: Good luck finding that in the docs, gxi --help gives *** WARNING -- Unknown or improperly placed --help option
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2020-11-16T17:27:14Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Why is that a problem?
2020-11-16T17:28:07Z wasamasa: suppose there is code not adhering to that convention and someone tries to make it work across one more scheme implementation insisting on that convention
2020-11-16T17:28:35Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Then you write a wrapper that just calls (main (command-line-arguments)) or whatever?
2020-11-16T17:28:41Z wasamasa: yeah, no
2020-11-16T17:28:53Z Riastradh: ?
2020-11-16T17:28:55Z wasamasa: here it is: https://github.com/kanaka/mal/pull/314
2020-11-16T17:29:05Z wasamasa: I considered just closing it for being butt ugly
2020-11-16T17:29:44Z wasamasa: this code runs fine on seven implementations and them comes gerbil
2020-11-16T17:31:00Z wasamasa: ah right, I forgot you need cond-expand to accomodate for that
2020-11-16T17:31:17Z Riastradh: The patch may be ugly but surely you can just add a main.scm that everything else includes, to call (main) if needed?  Only one cond-expand there to add the explicit calls to main that every other system apparetly requires.
2020-11-16T17:31:49Z wasamasa: apparently the maker of gerbil didn't consider that
2020-11-16T17:31:53Z Riastradh: Somehow C, C++, Java, Go, and Rust applications have managed to work this way for decades.
2020-11-16T17:32:18Z Riastradh: It sounds like you're throwing a tantrum about something really quite inconsequential because you don't like how it's spelled.
2020-11-16T17:32:23Z wasamasa: yeah and this isn't C, C++, Java, Go or Rust
2020-11-16T17:33:36Z mdhughes: My 'maintest' package/script/binary examples have been completely different in almost every Scheme. Gerbil's weird but not that weird.
2020-11-16T17:34:01Z wasamasa: it is more than that, you never end up calling the main function, but my code does to accomodate for everything non-gerbil
2020-11-16T17:34:08Z Zipheir: Is that something that Gerbil inherits from Gambit?
2020-11-16T17:34:20Z wasamasa: good question
2020-11-16T17:34:27Z wasamasa: gambit isn't r7rs, so I never tested it
2020-11-16T17:34:44Z mdhughes: gambit's mostly r7 now.
2020-11-16T17:34:49Z amirouche: mdhughes: +1
2020-11-16T17:34:54Z mdhughes: *mostly*
2020-11-16T17:34:55Z amirouche: it is missing fea libraries tho
2020-11-16T17:35:22Z wasamasa: and let me guess, it's missing user-defined r7rs libraries and loading them from the FS?
2020-11-16T17:35:55Z wasamasa: yup, seems it's a gambit thing to require a main procedure
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2020-11-16T17:36:10Z amirouche: that works
2020-11-16T17:36:17Z amirouche: user defined r7rs libraries works
2020-11-16T17:36:33Z amirouche: you can load R7RS from git :D
2020-11-16T17:36:37Z amirouche: remote git repo
2020-11-16T17:36:41Z wasamasa: does that precede gerbil?
2020-11-16T17:36:46Z amirouche: idk
2020-11-16T17:36:49Z wasamasa: sorry, succeed gerbil
2020-11-16T17:37:02Z wasamasa: because if gerbil happened because r7rs and useful libraries...
2020-11-16T17:37:48Z amirouche: I think it was a mistake to create gerbil and jazzscheme, but I was there. Also gambit is always in flux last few month
2020-11-16T17:37:55Z amirouche: I was not there.
2020-11-16T17:38:06Z wasamasa: not to forget lambdanative
2020-11-16T17:38:20Z amirouche: and blackhole?
2020-11-16T17:38:40Z amirouche: or that was only a package manager
2020-11-16T17:39:00Z wasamasa: reminds me of scheme spheres
2020-11-16T17:39:06Z wasamasa: so much effort around gambit
2020-11-16T17:39:39Z amirouche: it was the fatest open-source scheme before chez was open-sourced.
2020-11-16T17:40:36Z amirouche: I hope next gambit release will come with more documentation and R7RS libraries
2020-11-16T17:40:39Z Zipheir: It's still blazing fast.
2020-11-16T17:40:42Z gwatt: according to ecraven's benchmarks, gerbil & gambit are still faster
2020-11-16T17:40:45Z Zipheir: And very opinionated.
2020-11-16T17:41:22Z gwatt: though they're tested differently and the best score of each is taken for the combined ranking
2020-11-16T17:41:37Z amirouche: +1 very optioniated.
2020-11-16T17:42:00Z amirouche: like the command line use -:foo to add flags that the only program I know that does that
2020-11-16T17:42:11Z wasamasa: CHICKEN does that, too
2020-11-16T17:42:29Z amirouche: where does it come from?
2020-11-16T17:42:30Z mdhughes: It makes perfect sense if you think the command line should be mapped 1:1 to keywords.
2020-11-16T17:42:35Z amirouche: scheme idiom?
2020-11-16T17:42:48Z amirouche: hm ok
2020-11-16T17:45:18Z Zipheir: It almost makes sense if you think of :foo as some keyword syntax.
2020-11-16T17:51:21Z Riastradh: gotta be different, can't admit that it's subservient to a unix environment, it's a rebel
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2020-11-16T17:56:42Z Zipheir: I wonder if there was a chapter in the UHH about command-line syntax... and if it was written by the Gambit crew.
2020-11-16T17:57:46Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-16T17:57:52Z mdhughes: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-193/srfi-193.html
2020-11-16T17:57:59Z mdhughes: If the calling program is a standalone executable, the command line is equal to the command line of the operating system process, except that arguments belonging to the Scheme runtime system are omitted. (Such arguments start with -: in Gambit and Chicken.)
2020-11-16T17:58:18Z wasamasa: I mean, it does make sense, it allows separating arguments going to the scheme from arguments going to the program
2020-11-16T17:59:20Z Zipheir: Also, "The Gambit Crew" would be a good name for a game studio.
2020-11-16T17:59:30Z mdhughes: And https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-22/srfi-22.html specifies that main is called by a script…
2020-11-16T18:04:26Z wasamasa: and it has a single arguments argument, not a rest argument
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2020-11-17T07:59:30Z ecraven: ;)
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2020-11-17T10:40:20Z wasamasa: amirouche: would you accept a PR splitting the reference implementation into a .sld and .scm file?
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2020-11-17T11:10:02Z wasamasa: amirouche: another oddity: there's tests for pack, but from what I've gathered pack isn't supposed to be exposed as importable library, right?
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2020-11-17T11:15:46Z wasamasa: amirouche: and why does the test file use R6RS #vu8 syntax?
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2020-11-17T11:57:47Z amirouche: wasamasa: yes sure
2020-11-17T11:57:49Z amirouche: about the PR
2020-11-17T11:57:56Z wasamasa: ok
2020-11-17T11:58:02Z amirouche: wasamasa: IDK about #vu8 what is the syntax with r7rs?
2020-11-17T11:58:08Z wasamasa: #u8
2020-11-17T11:58:23Z amirouche: it works with chibi :>
2020-11-17T11:58:42Z wasamasa: well, look at the standard
2020-11-17T11:58:54Z wasamasa: it's clear that #u8 is supported and that #vu8 is the R6RS version
2020-11-17T11:59:33Z wasamasa: I'm currently going over the documentation and fixing errors, for example a reference to a non-existing transaction-state procedure (which probably means okvs-transaction-state)
2020-11-17T12:00:13Z wasamasa: or make-default-engine being in the hooks section instead of the engine one
2020-11-17T12:00:19Z amirouche: Thanks a lot.
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2020-11-17T13:19:25Z wasamasa: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-167/pulls
2020-11-17T13:20:17Z wasamasa: I've considered doing the same for tests, but decided against it
2020-11-17T13:22:44Z wasamasa: let me know if I should add license blurbs or something
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2020-11-17T14:24:31Z jcowan: Unfortunately cond-expand can't help with lexical syntax differences directly: they have to be put in separate files to be included or not.
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2020-11-17T14:25:50Z jcowan: Does anyone know if there has been any discussion of treating all numbers as exact and splitting *operations* into exact and inexact?
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2020-11-17T14:26:13Z jcowan: I don't think I invented the idea, but I don't know how to look for something like that.
2020-11-17T14:28:08Z ecraven: jcowan: would that help much? sqrt is both exact and inexact, depending on the argument
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2020-11-17T14:32:49Z jcowan: The idea is this:  All numbers are rational (in unextended Scheme), and we already treat 3.141592653589793 as = to 884279719003555/281474976710656.  So instead of saying that the first is inexact and the second is exact, we say that +, -, *, and / always deliver exact results, no matter how their arguments, whereas +., -., *., and /. are different functions that are faster but deliver only approximations.
2020-11-17T14:33:12Z jcowan: (This is all modulo -inf.0, +inf.0, and +nan.0)
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2020-11-17T14:35:58Z wasamasa: amirouche: I'm not sure how to interpret the capabilities of lmdb with regards to the config alist
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2020-11-17T14:36:19Z jcowan: That way, instead of saying that (+ 1 (expt 2.0 53)) is not the same as (+ 1 (expt 2.0 53)), which is mathematically absurd, we instead say that (+ 1 (expt 2 53)) is one thing and (.+ 1 (expt 2 53)) is another.  In particular, the first is not equal to (expt 2 53) whereas the second is equal to it, but that's just how the +. operator crumbles.
2020-11-17T14:36:46Z wasamasa: amirouche: from scouring docs it seems you cannot influence cache size (but db size), it always creates the db if it doesn't exist, it doesn't allow having a memory-only database, it doesn't expose WAL as option and read-only is the only meaningful option one can set
2020-11-17T14:37:28Z wasamasa: amirouche: does that seem correct to you?
2020-11-17T14:37:30Z jcowan: Of course under the table things would be much as before: we can define the new + as (cut old-+ (exact <>) (exact <>) and +. as (cut old-+ (inexact <>) <>).
2020-11-17T14:40:26Z jcowan: As for square root, sqrt would be a function defined only on numbers whose numerator and denominator are both square integers, whereas sqrt. is defined on all numbers but doesn't always deliver the mathematical square root.
2020-11-17T14:42:33Z jcowan: ecraven: Am I making sense?
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2020-11-17T14:52:51Z Riastradh: jcowan: ocaml
2020-11-17T14:53:09Z wasamasa: amirouche: actually, I'm wrong, the make-default-engine thing should go into the okvs instead of the engine docs
2020-11-17T14:53:21Z Riastradh: jcowan: even named the way you suggested with dots
2020-11-17T14:53:54Z jcowan: I did take the notation from OCaml, but I'm not sure I was right to do so
2020-11-17T14:56:08Z jcowan: there, 1 + 2.5 is a type error, whereas for me 2.5 is just another notation for 5/2, so perfectly valid.  The dots seem to be basically a way to escape the limitations of pure H-M typing, whereas for me they are semantic.
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2020-11-17T14:59:04Z amirouche: wasamasa: the requirement is to raise an error at runtime when passed unknown options, in your case if you support no options, just raise when there is an option. Otherwise said, options are optional.
2020-11-17T14:59:22Z Riastradh: jcowan: So you want (+ 1 .1) to yield 39631676720860365/36028797018963968, and (+. 1 .1) to yield 2476979795053773/2251799813685248?
2020-11-17T14:59:23Z jcowan: One of the annoyances of statically typed FP is that the numeric types are still dictated by the representations.
2020-11-17T14:59:33Z wasamasa: amirouche: are implementations allowed to support open options beyond that?
2020-11-17T14:59:55Z amirouche: wasamasa: yes.
2020-11-17T14:59:58Z jcowan: (+ 1 .1) would be 1.1, or 11/10.
2020-11-17T15:00:33Z Riastradh: OK, what about (+ 1 (+. 0 .1))?
2020-11-17T15:00:42Z Riastradh: 11/10 or 39631676720860365/36028797018963968?
2020-11-17T15:00:49Z wasamasa: amirouche: another oddity: why does engine-pack require an okvs argument, but engine-unpack doesn't?
2020-11-17T15:00:56Z jcowan: Your equation for (+. 1 .1) is correct, but does not mean that the internal represention is a ratnum
2020-11-17T15:02:06Z jcowan: the latter, probably as a flonum internally.
2020-11-17T15:02:47Z Riastradh: Well, part of the value of floating-point arithmetic is precisely that you don't need to worry about the representation overflowing memory.
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2020-11-17T15:03:49Z jcowan: Just so.  + is a mathematically correct addition operator, whereas +. is a fast and po tentiallymemory-sparing analogue to it
2020-11-17T15:04:01Z jcowan: This allows us to say, for example, that + is associative but +. is not.
2020-11-17T15:04:23Z amirouche: wasamasa: none should requires an okvs argument
2020-11-17T15:04:30Z amirouche: wasamasa: none of those
2020-11-17T15:04:32Z wasamasa: that's a documentation bug then
2020-11-17T15:04:55Z wasamasa: and why is key for the pack one a rest argument?
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2020-11-17T15:05:14Z jcowan: In addition, + is allowed to return a flonum, provided the flonum is the correct result in the sense of =.
2020-11-17T15:05:39Z wasamasa: is it to return multiple packed values?
2020-11-17T15:06:24Z amirouche: wasamasa: that is a design mistake but that can not be fixed easily.
2020-11-17T15:06:31Z wasamasa: well, ok
2020-11-17T15:07:16Z amirouche: it returns a packed list
2020-11-17T15:07:19Z amirouche: unpack return a list
2020-11-17T15:07:38Z amirouche: since pack, will produce a bytevector for a list
2020-11-17T15:07:59Z Riastradh: jcowan: So what would, say, sin do?
2020-11-17T15:08:40Z jcowan: sin is not a very useful function, but sin. is.  One could trade a little regularity for convience here and write sin instead of sin.
2020-11-17T15:08:47Z jcowan: er, instead of |sin.|.
2020-11-17T15:08:52Z Riastradh: sqrt?
2020-11-17T15:09:38Z wasamasa: amirouche: is that why pack/unpack are never used in the example test?
2020-11-17T15:09:39Z jcowan: as above: sqrt is only defined on numbers of the form p^2/q^2 with p, q integral, whereas sqrt. is defined on all numbers but is not typically the true square root.
2020-11-17T15:10:29Z amirouche: wasamasa: not good reason, outside the fact that pack and unpack are independant from th rest, pack and unpack are in the engine to make it again possible to swap the implementation at runtime.
2020-11-17T15:10:33Z jcowan wonders if any Schemes have sqrt return an exact number when q != 1
2020-11-17T15:10:48Z Riastradh: (sqrt 9/16)
2020-11-17T15:10:48Z Riastradh: ;Value: 3/4
2020-11-17T15:11:12Z amirouche: rubic: eval (sqrt 9/16)
2020-11-17T15:11:16Z amirouche: oops
2020-11-17T15:11:24Z amirouche: rudybot: eval (sqrt 9/16)
2020-11-17T15:11:24Z jcowan: Nice!
2020-11-17T15:11:25Z rudybot: amirouche: your sandbox is ready
2020-11-17T15:11:26Z rudybot: amirouche: ; Value: 3/4
2020-11-17T15:11:38Z jcowan: That's Racket, correct?
2020-11-17T15:11:50Z amirouche: IIRC yes.
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2020-11-17T15:12:09Z Riastradh: mit-scheme
2020-11-17T15:12:11Z jcowan: Chicken yes, Chibi no
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2020-11-17T15:12:27Z jcowan: Guile yes
2020-11-17T15:14:13Z jcowan: Larceny yes, Loko no
2020-11-17T15:14:40Z jcowan: Loko prints the result of (/ 3 4) as #i3/4, which is correct but odd.
2020-11-17T15:14:57Z weinholt: you have an old version
2020-11-17T15:14:59Z Riastradh: also
2020-11-17T15:14:59Z Riastradh: (sin-pi* 1/2)
2020-11-17T15:15:00Z Riastradh: ;Value: 1
2020-11-17T15:16:11Z jcowan: weinholt: Ah, thanks. I'm running from schemers/loko
2020-11-17T15:16:56Z Riastradh: (although (square (sin-pi* 1/4)) does not, alas, yield 1/2)
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2020-11-17T15:18:19Z jcowan: One could add restricted irrationals of the form 2π+4 to Scheme
2020-11-17T15:19:04Z wasamasa: amirouche: and the sample implementation doesn't seem to accept an empty prefix for engine-prefix-range
2020-11-17T15:23:35Z wasamasa: amirouche: so does that mean if I create my own implementation its unpack procedure must produce a list as well?
2020-11-17T15:23:56Z wasamasa: amirouche: because I can't see that in the SRFI document at all
2020-11-17T15:27:31Z wasamasa: amirouche: the pack/unpack thing seems doubly weird to me because I've found on the mailing list that this specific implementation isn't exposed as library, so I'd argue it's not too late to change anything
2020-11-17T15:27:46Z wasamasa: amirouche: to the contrary, now that there's someone else than you testing this, it's the best possible time to fix it
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2020-11-17T15:39:22Z wasamasa: amirouche: anyway, it seems the packing needs to be thought through some more for prefix ranges to work, (pack "key") doesn't form a prefix of (pack "key1")
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2020-11-17T15:41:06Z wasamasa: amirouche: or you'd need to document that keys need a different packing from values
2020-11-17T15:41:21Z amirouche: keys do not need different packing that values
2020-11-17T15:41:29Z wasamasa: see above
2020-11-17T15:41:39Z amirouche: there might be a problem with prefix that only accept list
2020-11-17T15:41:41Z wasamasa: your test suite doesn't catch that because it never uses packing
2020-11-17T15:42:03Z amirouche: in srfi-167
2020-11-17T15:42:16Z wasamasa: (pack "key") ;=> #u8(2 107 101 121 0)
2020-11-17T15:42:17Z wasamasa: (pack "key2") ;=> #u8(2 107 101 121 50 0)
2020-11-17T15:42:20Z wasamasa: this cannot possibly work
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2020-11-17T15:42:32Z amirouche: why not?
2020-11-17T15:42:41Z wasamasa: because the result of the former isn't a prefix for the latter
2020-11-17T15:42:46Z wasamasa: see the trailing zero
2020-11-17T15:43:11Z wasamasa: it only works in a non-prefix range
2020-11-17T15:43:22Z amirouche: Can we discuss than in two hours or so, I have to finish something.
2020-11-17T15:43:39Z wasamasa: sure, but so far I'm getting the impression that this sample implementation needs a lot of fixing
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2020-11-17T15:55:48Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks for explaining, I'll have to think about this for some time ;) [not that you should wait for my input, I'm no mathematician, and not even a very good Schemer :D]
2020-11-17T15:56:24Z jcowan: Oh, I don't intend to take any action on this.  Just a thought experiment.  And I certainly am no mathematician either.
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2020-11-17T16:00:23Z jcowan: Irritation of the day: "ADT" can mean algebraic data type or abstract data type
2020-11-17T16:00:51Z jcowan: This is not as obnoxious as the dual meaning of "persistent", but I've earned to live with that.
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2020-11-17T16:03:20Z gwatt: I wonder why "persistent data structure" is used instead of "immutable data structure"
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2020-11-17T16:03:57Z gwatt: Though I have heard the latter, so maybe it's certain groups who prefer one over the other...
2020-11-17T16:08:21Z ecraven: can't it be persistent, but not immutable?
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2020-11-17T16:09:19Z ecraven: "persistent data structure" to me implies it survives reboots (by being stored somewhere), but it doesn't say anything about immutability
2020-11-17T16:10:50Z gwatt: ahaha, that's the dual meaning jcowan mentioned
2020-11-17T16:11:33Z wasamasa: rudybot: putting the D in ACID
2020-11-17T16:11:34Z ecraven: hm.. I don't think I've ever consciously heard "persistent" in the sense of "immutable"
2020-11-17T16:11:38Z rudybot: wasamasa: putting the D in ACID?
2020-11-17T16:11:55Z gwatt: ecraven: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_data_structure
2020-11-17T16:11:56Z ecraven: but indeed wikipedia defines it exactly that way
2020-11-17T16:12:06Z jcowan: gwatt: "Persistent" means that you have operations like `set-foo` that generate a new object otherwise identical with the old, and typically sharing as much structure with it as possible.  "Immutable" means there are no such operations.
2020-11-17T16:12:15Z gwatt: > _Not to be confused with persistent storage_
2020-11-17T16:12:15Z jcowan: at least, that's my usage.
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2020-11-17T16:13:13Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks, that sounds like a nice and useful distinction ;)
2020-11-17T16:13:49Z ecraven: one more thing to add to the long list of things to implement some day.. also, make lenses work nicely with them :D
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2020-11-17T16:14:32Z gwatt: jcowan: It seems like PDS's require immutability
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2020-11-17T16:18:08Z jcowan: Well, at what level?  The user can't mutate them, but that doesn't mean there cannot be mutation inside.  https://github.com/ijp/fectors is a good example: they appear persistent, but things are stored in mutable objects like pairs and vectors.
2020-11-17T16:18:31Z gwatt: I'm fine with immutability at the interface level
2020-11-17T16:18:44Z gwatt: Even if the internals are destructive updates
2020-11-17T16:19:16Z ecraven: if you don't notice it outside, it doesn't matter, does it?
2020-11-17T16:19:26Z ecraven: in the end, it's all mutable anyway
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2020-11-17T17:07:43Z Zipheir: "UNIX has persistent objects.  They're called files." --Ken Thompson, picking one side of the "persistent" semantic divide.
2020-11-17T17:08:11Z Zipheir: (Or perhaps not.  Depends on the filesystem.)
2020-11-17T17:08:27Z ManDay: Using the word "persistent" when actually meaning immutable seems plain wrong.
2020-11-17T17:08:49Z Riastradh: ManDay: Why is it wrong?  When you `modify' it, creating a new version, the old version persists.
2020-11-17T17:10:27Z ManDay: Persistence => Immutability, but the reverse is only true in some cases. For example, like you said, when the circumstances demand that an "attempted" modification of an immutable object is translated into a copy+mutation.
2020-11-17T17:10:59Z ManDay: But generally, they are not the same.
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2020-11-17T17:13:54Z ManDay: Oops
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2020-11-17T17:15:04Z ManDay: That was nonsense, of course. Immutability => Persistence.
2020-11-17T17:15:55Z ManDay: Unless you don't assume an underlying physical definition of the entity in memory.
2020-11-17T17:20:07Z laertus: files can reside in memory (like on a ram disk), so they need not be persistent
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2020-11-17T17:23:22Z Riastradh: Not the same, sure, but except for read-only data structures (i.e., data structures you create all at once, and then only read from later, such as a perfect hash table or a cache-oblivious static BST), persistence (you can continue to use old versions) may be more salient than immutability.
2020-11-17T17:28:14Z laertus: and of course anything written to persistent media is persistent
2020-11-17T17:28:29Z amirouche: wasamasa: can you send a message to srfi-167 mailling list with all the points you discovered, I will be back in 30minutes
2020-11-17T17:28:32Z amirouche: wasamasa: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-167/
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2020-11-17T18:06:35Z amirouche: wasamasa: i reviewed the PR. Can re-explain the problem with prefix? you can not pass something else but a list as prefix in srfi-168 ?
2020-11-17T18:07:23Z wasamasa: if you pack a string, it always ends with a zero
2020-11-17T18:07:32Z wasamasa: that breaks the prefix property of strings
2020-11-17T18:08:22Z wasamasa: because (pack "key") no longer is a prefix of (pack "key2")
2020-11-17T18:08:39Z amirouche: the prefix, describe a subspace, that is "abc" and "abcdef" are different not intersecting subspaces
2020-11-17T18:08:56Z wasamasa: I'm talking about srfi-167, not srfi-168
2020-11-17T18:09:23Z amirouche: to create a subpace with another supace inside you need to use a list like (define prefix1 '("abc")) and (define prefix2 '("abc" "def")) then the second subspace will be part of the first
2020-11-17T18:10:07Z amirouche: hmm yes I stumbled upong this problem
2020-11-17T18:10:45Z amirouche: say you store (pack "key") and (pack "key2") and want to query everything that starts with "key" you need to drop the last 00 byte
2020-11-17T18:11:08Z wasamasa: leaky
2020-11-17T18:11:14Z amirouche: drop the last null byte of (pack "key")
2020-11-17T18:11:15Z amirouche: yes
2020-11-17T18:11:20Z amirouche: That is the same in python bindings.
2020-11-17T18:11:32Z wasamasa: which ones?
2020-11-17T18:11:40Z amirouche: official bindings
2020-11-17T18:11:43Z wasamasa: of what?
2020-11-17T18:11:57Z amirouche: of foundationdb.
2020-11-17T18:12:00Z wasamasa: are you sure they don't use python byte sequences for keys
2020-11-17T18:12:28Z amirouche: byte sequence? what is it?
2020-11-17T18:12:36Z wasamasa: the bytes type in python
2020-11-17T18:12:56Z wasamasa: like b'key'
2020-11-17T18:12:58Z amirouche: they do
2020-11-17T18:13:16Z wasamasa: well, there you go, that neatly avoids the problem
2020-11-17T18:13:25Z amirouche: (except the official bindings are a mess because it support both py2 and py3)
2020-11-17T18:13:31Z amirouche: why is that?
2020-11-17T18:13:33Z wasamasa: so use string->utf-8 for keys and pack for values
2020-11-17T18:14:39Z wasamasa: that avoids requiring the prefix property in your pack implementation
2020-11-17T18:14:39Z amirouche: the problem with the null byte comes from the bytevector serialization
2020-11-17T18:14:52Z amirouche: also you are not forced to use pack for keys
2020-11-17T18:15:03Z amirouche: you can use your own packing strategy, like the one you describe
2020-11-17T18:15:14Z wasamasa: sure, but really, this kind of thing should be explained in the document
2020-11-17T18:15:38Z amirouche: maybe, but the pack and unpack procedures are not documented at all.
2020-11-17T18:15:41Z wasamasa: not a single test uses pack/unpack and you expect people to magically know how to use it?
2020-11-17T18:16:37Z amirouche: there is https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-167/blob/master/srfi/pack/test.sld but that is not enough
2020-11-17T18:16:48Z wasamasa: indeed and it tests the roundtrip property
2020-11-17T18:16:55Z wasamasa: it doesn't test whether pack/unpack work with the okvs
2020-11-17T18:17:12Z amirouche: yes it works, it does not work the way you expect it
2020-11-17T18:18:10Z amirouche: here is how the equivalent python code does:
2020-11-17T18:18:14Z amirouche: In [3]: fdb.tuple.pack(("hello",))
2020-11-17T18:18:16Z amirouche: Out[3]: b'\x02hello\x00'
2020-11-17T18:18:18Z amirouche: In [4]: fdb.tuple.pack(("hellol",))
2020-11-17T18:18:20Z amirouche: Out[4]: b'\x02hellol\x00'
2020-11-17T18:18:35Z amirouche: it does the same thing as the pack
2020-11-17T18:18:40Z wasamasa: sure, now show me how the pack/unpack code is used when storing data inside the database
2020-11-17T18:18:51Z wasamasa: do they use it on keys/values?
2020-11-17T18:18:56Z amirouche: yes
2020-11-17T18:19:02Z wasamasa: both?
2020-11-17T18:19:15Z amirouche: it depends but most likely yes
2020-11-17T18:19:27Z wasamasa: so how does prefix search work then?
2020-11-17T18:20:28Z wasamasa: surely they don't chop off a null byte from a prefix, right
2020-11-17T18:20:34Z amirouche: if you want a particular lexicogrpahic packing for a particular range lookup, you'd rather use (pack (append my-prefix (list #u8(42))))
2020-11-17T18:21:05Z amirouche: then you query for instance for (range (append myprefix #u8(0)) (append myprefix #u8(1)))
2020-11-17T18:21:26Z amirouche: the thing is without pack, you need to manage multiple "spaces" or tables yourself.
2020-11-17T18:21:35Z wasamasa: so this is expected behavior?
2020-11-17T18:22:46Z amirouche: well, it is a limitation of the pack procedure sure thing. But it is taken into account because okvs procedure take bytevector as arguments so you use whatever you want.
2020-11-17T18:22:49Z wasamasa: does pack therefore require that (pack "key") is not a prefix of (pack "key2")?
2020-11-17T18:23:10Z amirouche: the only requirements is to preserve lexicographic order
2020-11-17T18:23:29Z amirouche: (pack "key") < (pack "key2")
2020-11-17T18:23:31Z amirouche: that is all
2020-11-17T18:23:44Z wasamasa: I mean, I can only wonder whether if I were to swap out the pack implementation it would completely break down for no obvious reason
2020-11-17T18:24:12Z wasamasa: for example if I encoded a string pascal-style
2020-11-17T18:24:35Z amirouche: pascal-style ? like prefix with the length of the string?
2020-11-17T18:24:38Z wasamasa: yup
2020-11-17T18:24:51Z amirouche: it will not work that is not lexicographic
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2020-11-17T18:25:06Z amirouche: I mean, you will not be able to query keys that starts with "key"
2020-11-17T18:25:17Z amirouche: here the only problem is that you need to chop off the last byte
2020-11-17T18:25:33Z amirouche: with pascal style, it just will give.. nothing interesting.
2020-11-17T18:26:28Z wasamasa: ok, good that we've cleared that up
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2020-11-17T18:34:14Z wasamasa: I've reshuffled the documentation commits
2020-11-17T18:39:44Z wasamasa: that leaves improving the sample implementation with regards to empty prefix range and take/drop
2020-11-17T18:41:40Z wasamasa: and maybe mentioning that pack/unpack should have the lexicographic property :>
2020-11-17T18:42:07Z wasamasa: maybe because it does say "preserving their natural order" and I don't find it clear enough
2020-11-17T18:43:44Z wasamasa: I'm not so sure on the pascal string thing though
2020-11-17T18:44:44Z wasamasa: suppose a three-byte string is encoded as "\x03key" and a four-byte one with the same prefix "\x04key2", string<? still holds
2020-11-17T18:45:08Z wasamasa: though, so would it for "\x04bar"
2020-11-17T18:45:27Z wasamasa: "\x04barf" I mean
2020-11-17T18:52:25Z wasamasa: what other languages is the foundationdb pack/unpack implemented in, other than python?
2020-11-17T18:52:30Z wasamasa: C or C++ per chance?
2020-11-17T18:54:53Z amirouche: here is a rust implementation: https://github.com/Clikengo/foundationdb-rs/blob/master/foundationdb/src/tuple/pack.rs
2020-11-17T18:55:07Z amirouche: (I think most bindings wants to be compatible with the default implementation of pack)
2020-11-17T18:55:21Z amirouche: I am thinking about the pascal strings
2020-11-17T18:55:36Z wasamasa: yeah, it can't work
2020-11-17T18:55:48Z wasamasa: the length prefix determines the ordering and that's just wrong
2020-11-17T18:56:15Z amirouche: "\x03key" < "\x03yek" < "0x04key2"
2020-11-17T18:56:29Z amirouche: where as "key" < key2" < "yek"
2020-11-17T18:57:04Z amirouche: there is another implementation of lexicographic packing in sqlite
2020-11-17T18:57:10Z amirouche: but i never looked into it
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2020-11-17T19:17:20Z wasamasa: what would you call a take/drop that doesn't error out on too few items?
2020-11-17T19:17:43Z wasamasa: I've just called them the same, but it's kind of eh
2020-11-17T19:17:57Z Riastradh: take<=
2020-11-17T19:18:48Z wasamasa: it's for implementing offset/limit operations
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2020-11-17T19:19:09Z Riastradh: select-from-offset-limit
2020-11-17T19:19:09Z wasamasa: so I've considered drop-offset/take-limit
2020-11-17T19:19:33Z Riastradh: select*from-list-where-limit-offset-group-by-having
2020-11-17T19:19:42Z wasamasa: :D
2020-11-17T19:19:44Z gwatt: *barf*
2020-11-17T19:20:02Z Riastradh: create-temp-list-as-select*from-...
2020-11-17T19:20:29Z wasamasa: rudybot: sql is to CL as srfi-s68 is to scheme
2020-11-17T19:20:34Z rudybot: wasamasa: (date->string (sql-datetime->srfi-date (hash-ref row 'published_at)) (date-display-format 'rfc2822))))
2020-11-17T19:20:37Z wasamasa: *srfi-168
2020-11-17T19:20:40Z gwatt: I would prefer the forgiving take/drop be standard and the erroring ones be not
2020-11-17T19:20:50Z ManDay: I'm trying to find a way to write `(if (and thingy! (thingy!)) (something (thingy!) something-else!)` in a way that will invoke `(thingy!)` only once and will not invoke `(something-else!)` unless the if would. And I came to the point where I think I have to use a macro for this. And now I feel bad. Can someone help?
2020-11-17T19:20:53Z wasamasa: mhh
2020-11-17T19:21:17Z wasamasa: I tend to rewrite it into a cond in that case
2020-11-17T19:21:27Z ManDay: For the record, my side-effects are just (display)s and I want to remove unnecessary clutter, so it's not a life-or-death problem, but still.
2020-11-17T19:21:29Z wasamasa: also, thingy! is only invoked once
2020-11-17T19:21:57Z ManDay: wasamasa: What do you mean?
2020-11-17T19:22:44Z gwatt: (cond [(and thingy! (thingy!)) => something] [else (something-else!)])
2020-11-17T19:23:04Z ManDay: but gwatt, something needs (thingy!)
2020-11-17T19:23:13Z gwatt: ManDay: that's what the => syntax does
2020-11-17T19:23:15Z ManDay: sorry I had a syntax error above, ofc it should have been:
2020-11-17T19:23:28Z ManDay: `(if (and thingy! (thingy!)) (something (thingy!)) something-else!)`
2020-11-17T19:23:43Z ManDay: gwatt: Oh okay, let me look that up
2020-11-17T19:24:38Z ManDay: Ah, very nice.
2020-11-17T19:24:47Z ManDay: So someone wrote that macro for me :D
2020-11-17T19:25:03Z ManDay: I don't have to get my hands dirty!
2020-11-17T19:25:14Z ManDay: Thanks gwatt
2020-11-17T19:25:19Z ManDay: we
2020-11-17T19:25:25Z ManDay: ll and wasamasa obviously
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2020-11-17T19:28:57Z ManDay: hm, to be honest now it looks untidy... the =>, the (else ...) and a lambda :-/
2020-11-17T19:30:29Z gwatt: If you name the `something` procedure outside the cond it will look much tidier
2020-11-17T19:32:30Z ManDay: then i have all this AND a let...
2020-11-17T19:32:33Z ManDay: :-P
2020-11-17T19:37:37Z ManDay: well it's not that bad, coincidentally something is just a cons
2020-11-17T19:48:02Z wasamasa: amirouche: I've made two more PRs for improving the sample implementation
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2020-11-17T21:53:42Z wasamasa: looking at srfi-158 and I wonder, is there any sense in having an accumulator that creates a finite generator upon eof?
2020-11-17T22:22:11Z amirouche: I do not think it makes sense
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2020-11-17T22:25:25Z wasamasa: srfi-167 doesn't say what happens when okvs-delete! is given a non-existent key
2020-11-17T22:26:15Z wasamasa: extrapolating from the behavior of okvs-ref for a non-existent key I guess it's not supposed to raise an exception
2020-11-17T22:26:44Z amirouche: yes
2020-11-17T22:26:50Z amirouche: nothing happens
2020-11-17T22:27:05Z amirouche: it is a bug in the specification
2020-11-17T22:28:03Z wasamasa: since arthur seems a tad tired from my PRs, I guess I'll just take notes while I finish implementing all that stuff
2020-11-17T22:28:25Z amirouche: they asked for a single PR
2020-11-17T22:28:36Z amirouche: just add all the changes to the same PR
2020-11-17T22:28:52Z amirouche: make the PR a draft
2020-11-17T22:29:04Z wasamasa: uh, ok
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2020-11-17T22:33:08Z wasamasa: what about unknown config keys for okvs-range and okvs-prefix-range, should they be an error?
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2020-11-17T23:39:14Z jcowan: wasamasa: I suppose that might make sense in some context: you push things into an accumulator and then on eof it returns a generator that lets you get them out again, either LIFO or FIFO
2020-11-17T23:39:43Z wasamasa: the reason for the idea was that I tried using the coroutine generator inside a fold procedure, but it didn't like the control transfer
2020-11-17T23:40:13Z wasamasa: so I thought that instead of folding into a list and creating a generator from it, an accumulator filling a generator might work
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2020-11-18T05:24:21Z mdhughes: But if you've got all the data from your accumulator, it's probably just stored in a list or vector, and you can return that.
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2020-11-18T08:38:10Z amirouche: hello #scheme!
2020-11-18T08:47:06Z ManDay: Good morning Sir
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2020-11-18T09:17:01Z amirouche: great paper about software engineering
2020-11-18T09:17:04Z amirouche: https://faculty.washington.edu/ajko/papers/Li2019WhatDistinguishesEngineers.pdf
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2020-11-18T09:19:14Z ManDay: Saddest of pandas, this information doesn't seem to exist.
2020-11-18T09:19:26Z ManDay: Oh, my bad
2020-11-18T09:19:31Z ManDay: (I blame it on the terminal)
2020-11-18T09:20:44Z ManDay: Heh, I'll keep it around for next time when I should have a job interview (if ever)
2020-11-18T09:24:51Z amirouche: fore interviews, you want: https://www.meetleet.com/blog/what-a-great-technical-resume-can-do-for-you
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2020-11-18T09:56:39Z wasamasa: mdhughes: true, that's why I don't care too much, it's just a thought experiment, an accumulator that gathers its data directly in a generator instead of going through a list
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2020-11-18T11:54:15Z amirouche: mdhughes: do you know this game?
2020-11-18T11:54:22Z amirouche: mdhughes: apparantly it is written with scheme
2020-11-18T11:55:01Z mdhughes: Which game?
2020-11-18T11:55:58Z mdhughes: wasamasa: I suppose as you accumulate stuff you could put it in a database/file, and then return a generator to read it back.
2020-11-18T11:59:47Z amirouche: mdhughes: https://featurecreeps.itch.io/corpsewizard
2020-11-18T12:07:26Z mdhughes: Nice, hadn't seen it yet.
2020-11-18T12:12:14Z mdhughes: My long slow death march to having cross-platform builds is nearing an end.
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2020-11-18T12:48:14Z wasamasa: mdhughes: it's about reading from a database and the obvious coroutine generator doesn't play nice with its use of dynamic-wind
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2020-11-18T15:23:05Z amirouche: drew devault (from sourcehut, wayland, and prolly others) posted an article about possibly investing or writing his own search engine
2020-11-18T15:23:12Z amirouche: https://drewdevault.com/2020/11/17/Better-than-DuckDuckGo.html
2020-11-18T15:23:30Z wasamasa: he also hates functional programming
2020-11-18T15:23:37Z wasamasa: in case you were getting your hopes up
2020-11-18T15:23:41Z amirouche: oh no
2020-11-18T15:24:35Z wasamasa: occasionally he rants about how C is better than everything and that he'll block people shilling lisp, every time I check whether he still follows me
2020-11-18T15:24:51Z wasamasa: so not sure whether there's more to it or I'm just not obnoxious enough about it
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2020-11-18T15:27:31Z amirouche: I already read some post about something along this lines.
2020-11-18T15:27:57Z amirouche: still, it will be fierce competition!
2020-11-18T15:28:14Z amirouche: especially, since I given up all my trick on his public mailbox x)
2020-11-18T15:28:21Z amirouche: tricks
2020-11-18T15:37:46Z mdhughes: Drew's almost charming at how aggressively he trolls every other dev, but you can't take him seriously.
2020-11-18T15:38:15Z wasamasa: yeah, I expect it to go away once sr.ht starts mattering
2020-11-18T15:38:24Z wasamasa: there's only so much you can do as CEO
2020-11-18T15:41:41Z LeoNerd: Someone wants to write a new search engine? What is it, 1995 again?
2020-11-18T15:42:04Z LeoNerd: We already have Yahoo! and AskJeeves, what do we need a third one for?
2020-11-18T15:42:22Z mdhughes: I may be shallow, but sourcehut's lack of styling makes me less confident in it than gitlab.
2020-11-18T15:44:42Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-18T15:45:10Z wasamasa: what about its lack of being a pile of molasses, does that make you suspicious of it as well?
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2020-11-18T16:23:39Z mdhughes: I dunno, gitlab runs fast enough for my uses. I'm reasonably sure it has a bus number >1, as well.
2020-11-18T16:25:07Z wasamasa: I guess on a 2020 macbook it doesn't matter, yes
2020-11-18T16:25:13Z mdhughes: I don't benchmark pushing to a repo, I just want it to get done when I'm back from coffee/bio break, and to still be there as a backup next week.
2020-11-18T16:25:39Z wasamasa: I'm not speaking of pushing to a repo
2020-11-18T16:25:52Z wasamasa: I mean visiting the web view in your browser
2020-11-18T16:26:04Z wasamasa: it takes gitlab ages to do the common operations
2020-11-18T16:26:11Z wasamasa: github is noticably better
2020-11-18T16:26:21Z wasamasa: then there's my static website which blows everything out the water
2020-11-18T16:26:33Z wasamasa: sr.ht comes close
2020-11-18T16:26:39Z mdhughes: Oh. I have a now-5-year-old iMac 5K, but Safari's fast anyway.
2020-11-18T16:26:41Z amirouche: LeoNerd: search engine with scheme for the win!
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2020-11-18T19:20:44Z amirouche: https://pre-srfi.github.io/webui/demos/05-babelia/
2020-11-18T19:21:36Z wasamasa: lol, 15 seconds and I found a bug
2020-11-18T19:21:45Z amirouche: that's a start :)
2020-11-18T19:21:55Z amirouche: of course it is not finished!
2020-11-18T19:21:56Z wasamasa: rudybot: will find bugs for food
2020-11-18T19:21:57Z rudybot: wasamasa: The only eating habit that bugs me is chewing or inserting food nosily.
2020-11-18T19:22:05Z amirouche: (:
2020-11-18T19:22:21Z amirouche: rudybot: you are an exceptional bot, thumbs up!
2020-11-18T19:22:27Z rudybot: amirouche: I would reject them too, but "condition" is not an arbitrary term. It was chosen because conditions needn't be exceptional.
2020-11-18T19:22:42Z wasamasa: https://x32.be/doggu.png
2020-11-18T19:23:07Z amirouche: yes i know, I spent time with css :D
2020-11-18T19:23:25Z amirouche: rudybot: css is code too
2020-11-18T19:23:30Z rudybot: amirouche: Is it a known problem that the default css for org export to html is a bit bad on narrow screens such as mobile phones? In code blocks, if the text is too long, it will escape the block
2020-11-18T19:23:31Z wasamasa: wait, none of it works?
2020-11-18T19:23:43Z amirouche: there is two pages already
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2020-11-18T19:45:46Z karme: was there something other than srfi-193 regarding command line arguments?
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2020-11-18T20:24:19Z gwatt: karme: there's srfi-37, which is designed to process command line arguments.
2020-11-18T20:26:09Z karme: gwatt: thanks
2020-11-18T20:27:21Z wasamasa: amirouche: I've noticed just now that the example pack implementation omits some types, is that due to inherent limitations with portable code?
2020-11-18T20:39:15Z wasamasa: amirouche: and how about '() mapping to the null type?
2020-11-18T20:40:41Z amirouche: wasamasa: this was not meant to be perfect for scheme... but compatible with other foundationdb bindings.
2020-11-18T20:40:54Z amirouche: indeed it can support '()
2020-11-18T20:41:07Z amirouche: because '() is not Python's None.
2020-11-18T20:41:18Z amirouche: the null type maps to None in python.
2020-11-18T20:41:59Z wasamasa: https://clojure.org/reference/lisps
2020-11-18T20:42:18Z wasamasa: the table at the end
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2020-11-18T20:43:29Z amirouche: and then?
2020-11-18T20:43:59Z wasamasa: and then there's sadness
2020-11-18T20:44:11Z amirouche: I meant to say that there is null in the packing function but it maps to different object in other languages
2020-11-18T20:44:59Z wasamasa: currently trying to figure out why the test suite fails me for packing '(null)
2020-11-18T20:45:14Z wasamasa: ah, because it's using eq?
2020-11-18T20:45:16Z amirouche: because '(null) is a unique object
2020-11-18T20:45:19Z amirouche: yes
2020-11-18T20:45:29Z wasamasa: so that means nobody but that library can use null
2020-11-18T20:45:45Z wasamasa: awesome :D
2020-11-18T20:45:49Z amirouche: you would need to export '(null) from the packing library
2020-11-18T20:46:00Z wasamasa: yuck
2020-11-18T20:46:14Z wasamasa: but ok, it's not the first time that happened
2020-11-18T20:46:22Z wasamasa: http://api.call-cc.org/4/doc/sql-null
2020-11-18T20:49:52Z wasamasa: I've tested some more and found that the lexicographical property doesn't hold when I compare negative with positive numbers and for some reason, for bytevectors neither
2020-11-18T20:51:42Z amirouche: it does not suprise me :/
2020-11-18T20:51:59Z wasamasa: more testing is required
2020-11-18T20:52:09Z amirouche: bytevector do not compare correctly?
2020-11-18T20:52:39Z wasamasa: yeah, my tests fail for #u8(00 00) #u8(00 01) #u8(10 00)
2020-11-18T20:52:55Z wasamasa: I compare first with second, second with third, then the same for the packed versions
2020-11-18T20:53:18Z wasamasa: but maybe it's the srfi-128 comparator being wonky
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2020-11-18T20:53:50Z amirouche: srfi-128 vector comparator does not work on bytevector
2020-11-18T20:54:02Z wasamasa: hm
2020-11-18T20:54:05Z amirouche: I mean it does not compare lexicographicaly
2020-11-18T20:54:39Z amirouche: there is an implementation of lexicographic comparison of bytevector somewhere in the sample implementation
2020-11-18T20:57:09Z wasamasa: the srfi-128 implementation I'm looking at seems to do it
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2020-11-18T20:58:44Z wasamasa: though wait, I see what you mean
2020-11-18T20:58:53Z wasamasa: it short-circuits on length first
2020-11-18T20:58:58Z amirouche: yes
2020-11-18T20:59:08Z wasamasa: so much for my elegant test code
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2020-11-18T21:03:42Z jcowan: That's the idea of vector-style as opposed to list-style comparison
2020-11-18T21:07:49Z wasamasa: is there some authoritative list of known types?
2020-11-18T21:08:09Z wasamasa: the python binding lists a bunch, but I wonder whether there's something mandating character types in addition
2020-11-18T21:09:28Z amirouche: No. Why?
2020-11-18T21:09:46Z amirouche: You want to add some times to blend better with scheme?
2020-11-18T21:09:55Z amirouche: s/times/types/ -_-'
2020-11-18T21:10:04Z wasamasa: I'm considering it
2020-11-18T21:10:27Z amirouche: While being compatible with foundationdb thing?
2020-11-18T21:10:41Z wasamasa: if possible
2020-11-18T21:10:56Z wasamasa: for example by supporting characters, assuming they are specified somewhere
2020-11-18T21:11:01Z amirouche: Someone asked the question sometime ago.. but I do not remember.
2020-11-18T21:11:40Z amirouche: What I think is that you can pick anything that is backward compatible, but not already taken
2020-11-18T21:12:06Z amirouche: there is some bytes that were used before it was open-sourced that are not used anymore, it is documented in python bindings.
2020-11-18T21:12:34Z amirouche: and they are some that are supported by python bindings, but not supported in scheme like uuid
2020-11-18T21:12:58Z wasamasa: yeah
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2020-11-18T21:16:42Z amirouche: wasamasa: how does chicken handle dependencies between eggs?
2020-11-18T21:17:00Z wasamasa: what do you mean?
2020-11-18T21:17:14Z wasamasa: an egg can export several modules, but you always declare dependencies on an egg
2020-11-18T21:18:25Z amirouche: when you install an egg it fetch depdendencies?
2020-11-18T21:18:35Z wasamasa: yes
2020-11-18T21:20:47Z wasamasa: I could of course depend on an uuid egg, but it seems like a less useful type to work with than characters or keywords
2020-11-18T21:22:15Z amirouche: before publishing the can I the a chance to review it ?
2020-11-18T21:22:21Z amirouche: before publishing the EGG can I the a chance to review it ?
2020-11-18T21:22:33Z amirouche: (sorry!)
2020-11-18T21:22:43Z wasamasa: sure
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2020-11-18T21:23:11Z wasamasa: I've published all the dependency srfis so far, but for the srfi-167-lmdb egg things are a bit different
2020-11-18T21:23:25Z wasamasa: because I've made my own test suite and so on
2020-11-18T21:24:09Z amirouche: wasamasa: you have the commit bit in chicken coop? I do not see you publish new eggs in the mailing list
2020-11-18T21:24:48Z wasamasa: https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-users/2020-11/msg00031.html
2020-11-18T21:27:24Z amirouche: I am thinking about making another implementation of srfi-167 that would not rely on (scheme mapping) but still rely on (scheme mapping hash)
2020-11-18T21:27:56Z wasamasa: I haven't published my srfi-167 implementation yet as it swaps out srfi-125 for srfi-69
2020-11-18T21:28:11Z amirouche: I would replace (scheme mapping) with a log-based balanced binary tree (thanks to Riastradh) that will support iteration
2020-11-18T21:28:34Z amirouche: with cursor
2020-11-18T21:28:58Z amirouche: that could help in case of large datastructure.
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2020-11-18T23:19:43Z Zipheir: How would one conditionally import one of a set of acceptable libraries and the same Scheme forms for each?
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2020-11-18T23:20:55Z Zipheir: e.g. if syntax-case is needed, and you need one of the handful of libraries among Schemes that provide syntax-case, but you don't want to rewrite the macros you've got for each cond-expand possibility?
2020-11-18T23:22:09Z Zipheir: With hypothetical arrow syntax: (cond-expand ((or (library ...) ...) => (lambda (lib) (begin (import lib) ...)))
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2020-11-19T04:14:43Z foof: (sqrt 9/16) works in chibi now
2020-11-19T04:17:26Z oni-on-ion: was this a bug previously?
2020-11-19T04:18:45Z foof: not a bug per se, but it didn't preserve exactness (replying to an earlier discussion)
2020-11-19T04:19:00Z oni-on-ion: ah, ok. just curious
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2020-11-19T04:48:43Z aeth: sqrt is part of the inexact library, so I wouldn't be surprised if a hypothetical exact-sqrt that did exact-integer-sqrt on both halves of a rational would make more sense than sqrt preserving exactness
2020-11-19T04:49:35Z aeth: oh, hmm, that procedure probably rounds, actually.
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2020-11-19T07:07:09Z oni-on-ion: but if its stored as ratio..
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2020-11-19T09:05:26Z wasamasa: amirouche: looking some more into this, integer64 seems hard to do portably (I've found some funny code that messes with the flonum until it overflows), but the nested type should be doable to implement
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2020-11-19T09:11:51Z amirouche: ok
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2020-11-19T13:55:41Z ManDay: What was the reason again that call-with-values takes a no-arguments lambda as the first argument (instead of the values themselves)?
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2020-11-19T16:18:10Z jcowan: future!ManDay: Because multiple values are not an object.  If you call a procedure that returns multiple values, and you are not expecting to handle them, it is undefined behavior.  You might get a magic system object, or an exception, or the first value.  That's why call-with-values is not definable in Scheme.
2020-11-19T16:20:01Z ManDay: ah I remeber there was a lengthy discussion about why that is... wasn't there
2020-11-19T16:20:23Z ManDay: ah no, that was another discussion, why (values ) isn't simply an opaque list
2020-11-19T16:20:37Z ManDay: but that what you just said is the epitome of weird
2020-11-19T16:21:25Z ManDay: (from a user's perspective)
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2020-11-19T16:22:29Z jcowan: In high-performance implementations, MVs are simply pushed on the stack separately without being turned into an object.
2020-11-19T16:23:51Z jcowan: In Scheme, procedures are called with multiple arguments and return multiple values: the situation is symmetrical.
2020-11-19T16:24:14Z jcowan: Or to put it otherwise, a Scheme procedure ends by calling its continuation (the whole rest of hte program) with multiple arguments.
2020-11-19T16:25:29Z jcowan: You don't call a procedure by packaging up its arguments into some data structure.  By the same token, values aren't packaged up either.
2020-11-19T16:25:44Z ManDay: hm, I think I have to catch up then. Every time I want to return multiple things I wrap them in cons'es or lists...
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2020-11-19T16:26:18Z amirouche: guile...
2020-11-19T16:26:21Z jcowan: And often that's the right thing, as then you do get a single object you can manipulate without needing call-with-values.
2020-11-19T16:26:23Z amirouche: guile use lot of match
2020-11-19T16:26:52Z jcowan: Like almost everything else in Scheme, MVs are a tool you can use or not use.
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2020-11-19T16:27:20Z ManDay: jcowan: you make it sound so beautiful ("symmetric") but in reality, when I want to pass multiple values returned by one proc into another I have to resort to this awkward call-with-values- thing. I can NOT just do (the-proc-that-takes-multiple (the-proc-that-returns-multuple)) , can I?!
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2020-11-19T16:27:54Z ManDay: I guess I never tried
2020-11-19T16:27:56Z ManDay: *tries*
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2020-11-19T16:28:28Z ManDay: nope
2020-11-19T16:28:39Z ManDay: (define (f) (values 2 3)) (+ (f))
2020-11-19T16:28:41Z ManDay: no luck there
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2020-11-19T16:29:07Z ManDay: so not really symmetric, and pretty ugly in my opinion
2020-11-19T16:29:15Z ManDay: (would have been nice ^^)
2020-11-19T16:29:43Z ManDay: amirouche: can't parse.
2020-11-19T16:29:53Z ManDay: "guile... guile use lot of match"
2020-11-19T16:29:56Z ManDay: are you drunk?
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2020-11-19T16:38:06Z wasamasa: if you posted that on r/scheme, it would have landed into the moderation queue, flagged "not being kind"
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2020-11-19T16:39:33Z wasamasa: but then, I often ignore these
2020-11-19T16:39:55Z ManDay: reddit, not even once
2020-11-19T16:40:26Z wasamasa: and sorry, I meant r/emacs of course (which I happen to moderate)
2020-11-19T16:43:16Z ManDay: well, either amirouche is giving me the silent treatment for being rude or he has fallen asleep over his bottle of wine
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2020-11-19T17:18:44Z jcowan: ManDay: That's why we have nice syntax for it, namely let-values.  It wouldn't be much fun programming Scheme with just lambda and no let, even though (let ((a 10) (b 20) (+ a b)) expands to ((lambda (a b) (+ a b)) 10 20)
2020-11-19T17:21:17Z jcowan: there is also receive (SRFI 8) for capturing just one set of multiple values: (receive (one two) (proc-returning-two-values)) or (receive all (proc-returning-unknown-number-of-values))
2020-11-19T17:21:51Z jcowan: sorry, I left out the body of the two `receive`s
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2020-11-19T17:25:12Z jcowan: (receive (one two) (proc-two-values) (+ a b)) or (receive all (proc-unknown-values) (vector->list all)), with of course more complex bodies allowed
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2020-11-19T17:36:36Z amirouche: ManDay: I was afk
2020-11-19T17:36:46Z amirouche: ManDay: how do you process the list that you return
2020-11-19T17:37:48Z amirouche: What I meant to say, if you return a list, you can use match destructure the list.
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2020-11-19T17:43:31Z ManDay: jcowan: that's nice indeed. thanks!
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2020-11-19T17:44:29Z ManDay: and yes, it makes more sense than my example
2020-11-19T17:44:50Z jcowan: amirouche: Yes, if you don't mind building up the list with one hand to tear it down with another, which creates GC pressure.
2020-11-19T17:45:04Z amirouche: my thought
2020-11-19T17:48:03Z jcowan: Scheme was born on a system where the max size of a process was 256KW (1 word = 36 bits), and there were plenty of programs that seriously strained that.  Unusually by today's standards, the max *physical* memory was 4 MW, but you would need multiple cooperating processes to get access to all of it.
2020-11-19T17:48:32Z ManDay: hm, so when I have a procedure return multiple values, and I just want to pass them on `(let ((ret (f))) (if (car ret) ... ret)))`  I still have to let-values?
2020-11-19T17:49:04Z ManDay: There is no way to just pass them on like I could if the values are wrapped in a pair, like I write it?
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2020-11-19T17:49:56Z jcowan: No.  All tools have their limitations, but in Scheme we can have them ALL.
2020-11-19T17:50:23Z jcowan: And that's the limitation of MVs: as I said first, they are not an object.
2020-11-19T17:50:36Z ManDay: jcowan: Did you give an explanation for *why* this is so, though?
2020-11-19T17:50:41Z ManDay: If so, I didn't grasp it
2020-11-19T17:50:58Z Riastradh: programming languages should be designed not by piling limitation upon limitation, but by removing the features that make additional limitations appear necessary
2020-11-19T17:51:01Z ManDay: What would go wrong if you let `values` behave like an object?
2020-11-19T17:51:08Z jcowan: If there was an object, it would be necessary to allocate it, and it would typically become garbage very quickly
2020-11-19T17:52:03Z ManDay: jcowan: I don't concur. I'm merely talking about semantics for the compiler. It doesn't necessarily have to have any consequences for implementation.
2020-11-19T17:52:47Z ManDay: If the compiler feels like it, it could treat any occurence of the supposed "values object" *as if* a let-values were in place.
2020-11-19T17:53:14Z ManDay: It just improves the semantics (and makes them simpler, I'd say)
2020-11-19T17:53:54Z jcowan: Not if it were returned by the calling procedure, unless you insist on a whole-program compiler.
2020-11-19T17:54:25Z ManDay: Ok
2020-11-19T17:54:48Z jcowan: Semantically objects have unlimited extent: they exist forever or until the system can prove that they cannot affect the rest of the program (a GC supplies precisely that proof).
2020-11-19T17:55:48Z jcowan: Compilers do perform escape analysis in certain cases, proving that a certain value can be abandoned when the current procedure exits, but these are optimizations.
2020-11-19T17:55:48Z ManDay: Well, personally I don't care for speed, but on the other hand I care for elegant code. So I think I should define `(let-list)` (I suppose it's `receive`) and use that; semantically equivalent to `values` plus the nice addition that I can just pass it on.
2020-11-19T17:56:39Z ManDay: jcowan: To be honest it sounds to me as if you are subjecting specification to implementation. I understand you have to be practical in the specification, but this seems a sort of severe limitation.
2020-11-19T17:56:39Z jcowan: (receive all (proc) all will do that
2020-11-19T17:57:46Z Riastradh: ManDay: The semantic idea is that a continuation is just a procedure like any other, and we don't have any kind of `multiple-argument' object or automatically splice a list as multiple procedure arguments, so why should the same happen with continuation arguments?
2020-11-19T17:58:00Z amirouche: ManDay: you can do something like (call-with-values thunk (lambda args (process args))) this will convert values to a list
2020-11-19T17:58:17Z jcowan: If uyou look at the formal semantics, though, the change is trivial: just allow continuations to be called with multiple arguments.  So when you push past the functional interpretation of Scheme (which is where we mostly live) and see it in continuation-passing style, which is what it truly is, then ... [what Riastradh said]
2020-11-19T17:59:35Z ManDay: Riastradh: It would go nicely with currying :-D
2020-11-19T17:59:41Z ManDay: But I get what you mean
2020-11-19T18:00:01Z ManDay: anyway, it's not a crippling limitation. just it would save a line of code here and there
2020-11-19T18:01:03Z Riastradh: ManDay: Here's an example.  Let's say you have a thing x.  One might expect that (car (list x)) returns x.  One might expect that calling (lambda () (car (list x))) returns x.  In any event, this procedure appears to return only a single value, as car does.
2020-11-19T18:01:28Z Riastradh: Now let's write (define (first-value f) (receive (a . d) (f) a)) -- that is, first-value returns the first of however many values f returns.
2020-11-19T18:01:55Z Riastradh: Now, if x is a `multiple values' object, (first-value (lambda () (car (list x)))) _does not_ return x.
2020-11-19T18:07:30Z ManDay: I agree. I don't understand what point you are making, though.
2020-11-19T18:09:05Z Riastradh: Point is to make reasoning about programs involving multiple-values easier.
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2020-11-19T18:10:58Z Riastradh: If you have (lambda () ...thing that looks like it returns a single value...), and you pass it to first-value which returns the first (and for single values, only) value returned by the procedure, the existence of multiple-value objects means you can't draw the conclusion above about what (first-value (lambda () ...)) returns.
2020-11-19T18:11:31Z Riastradh: (that is, that it should be the same as x)
2020-11-19T18:13:02Z Riastradh: In brief, (first-value (lambda () (car (list x)))) == x is a theorem in standard Scheme, but false if you add multiple-value objects.
2020-11-19T18:14:09Z Riastradh: (and not false in the sense that == is replaced by != but in the sense that you can't conclude one way or another)
2020-11-19T18:14:50Z jcowan: Are you familiar with red (non-async) and blue (async) functions in JS or elsewhere?
2020-11-19T18:15:13Z jcowan: The key to Scheme is that all its functions are blue.  That's why it's possible to write user-level thread schedulers.
2020-11-19T18:15:26Z jcowan: ^^ManDay
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2020-11-19T18:29:56Z Zipheir: Why not just past fixed-size lists around if you need first-class values?  Or maybe I've missed the point.
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2020-11-19T18:54:49Z Zipheir: "Pass", even.
2020-11-19T19:00:33Z ManDay: Riastradh: I see what you mean now
2020-11-19T19:00:55Z ManDay: jcowan: Hm no, I guess my JS knowledge is more on the practical side of things ;)
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2020-11-19T19:11:56Z imode: knowing the difference between non-asynchronous and asynchronous functions is pretty practical these days.
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2020-11-19T19:27:36Z jcowan: Some systems, like Chibi, represent MVs as objects: MVs are a list whose car is a unique object.
2020-11-19T19:28:15Z jcowan: That is one of the reasons why Scheme unlike CL does not specify a standard recovery for getting the wrong number of multiple values: so that different implementations are possible.
2020-11-19T19:29:14Z jcowan: In other systems, like Kawa, a MV is an object of a unique type that is only known to  `values` and `call-with-values`.
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2020-11-19T20:04:54Z ecraven: ManDay: a bit late, but if you "just" want to pass on multiple values, how would that work? (let ((foo (values 1 2 3)) (function foo 4)).. should that call function with 4 arguments, or 2? or should it not be possible to "mix" multi-values and single values? what if you (the user of a function) don't actually *know* whether it returns one or multiple values?
2020-11-19T20:05:25Z amirouche: sounds like javascript
2020-11-19T20:06:38Z ManDay: ecraven: it's true. that would need some rules to be well-defined
2020-11-19T20:07:00Z ManDay: not sure what you mean by using a function without knowing what it takes or returns
2020-11-19T20:07:23Z ManDay: how could anyone use a function without knowing what it does?
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2020-11-19T20:11:41Z ManDay: i think y'all convinced me that things are fairly good the way they are
2020-11-19T20:12:34Z ManDay: anyway gn all
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2020-11-19T22:44:24Z jcowan: We can use + without knowing how many arguments it will take in particular cases, because they are all treated the same.
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2020-11-19T22:51:48Z Zipheir: We have to know *something* about the semantics of data we want to compute with, contrary to the claims of some dynamic-typing zealots.
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2020-11-19T22:56:54Z wasamasa: amirouche: I've added list/nested support and the code became slightly bit more readable
2020-11-19T22:57:20Z wasamasa: amirouche: will try and see whether I can add it to the reference implementation as well and push that to a git repo
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2020-11-20T01:59:01Z siraben: Zipheir: here, here!
2020-11-20T01:59:07Z siraben: hear, hear!*
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2020-11-20T02:02:18Z Zipheir: Where, where?
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2020-11-20T02:11:19Z Zipheir: Occasionally you *do* hear the claim that "dynamic types allow you to work with data you know nothing about", but that quickly reduces to nonsense.
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2020-11-20T02:32:37Z siraben: Is there a usecase for using C unions without a tag field? Tagged unions seem a lot more useful than untagged unions.
2020-11-20T02:34:03Z aeth: siraben: probably for horrible hacks like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root
2020-11-20T02:34:42Z aeth: note that it's slower on modern hardware
2020-11-20T02:34:46Z siraben: Yeah, I was reminded of that.
2020-11-20T02:35:01Z siraben: It's slower because there's a specialized instruction to do it?
2020-11-20T02:35:40Z Zipheir: We just used an untagged (double, uint) union in the SRFI 208 sample implementation for type-punning.
2020-11-20T02:35:53Z Zipheir: (Double in, bits out)
2020-11-20T02:35:58Z Zipheir: And vice-versa.
2020-11-20T02:39:32Z aeth: siraben: that, and floats really aren't just the bunch of bits that C thinks they are
2020-11-20T02:39:35Z jcowan: But that's because type casts in C on numeric values are conversion rather than reinterpretation.
2020-11-20T02:40:02Z aeth: exactly.
2020-11-20T02:40:22Z Riastradh: siraben: Data path between floating-point registers and integer registers is usually pretty costly.
2020-11-20T02:40:23Z siraben: That's new to me, this "conversion" takes how many instructions?
2020-11-20T02:40:48Z siraben: Oh between FP and integers of course there would be reinterpretation. What about between signed/unsigned integer values?
2020-11-20T02:41:03Z Riastradh: Even if there's no formal conversion operation, there's a microarchitectural penalty to doing fp vector operations and then integer vector operations on the same registers or vice versa.
2020-11-20T02:41:24Z jcowan: "Reinterpretation" means we pretend the type is what we want it to be: C++ reinterpret_cast <double> long_var
2020-11-20T02:41:30Z aeth: siraben: My guess is, it depends on the hardware. AMD FX chips (Bulldozer, etc.) before Ryzen had half the FPUs for every "core" (so an 8 core CPU only had 4 FPUs) so that probably would've been much more expensive compared to Intel Core or AMD Ryzen
2020-11-20T02:41:51Z aeth: (AMD actually lost a lawsuit over that.)
2020-11-20T02:42:10Z aeth: (And some OSes treat FX chips like n/2 cores with n SMT threads)
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2020-11-20T02:43:29Z jcowan: actually it needs to be *(reinterpret_cast <double *> *long_var
2020-11-20T02:43:36Z Riastradh: In this case, there is an explicit conversion -- gcc compiles it to:  movd %xmm0,%edx; shr %edx; mov $0x5f3759df,%eax; sub %edx,%eax; movd %eax,%xmm3; ...then the arithmetic threehalfs - (x2 * conv.f * conv.f) in SSE.
2020-11-20T02:44:05Z jcowan: It's the massive shift to convert a mantissa into an integer that costs so much.
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2020-11-20T02:45:31Z Riastradh: Looks like on more recent microarchitectures movd has attained much better latency, but on older ones it cost many cycles, according to Agner Fog's tables <https://www.agner.org/optimize/instruction_tables.pdf>.
2020-11-20T02:45:45Z aeth: siraben: Signed/unsigned integers on the other hand have no difference at all. They're the exact same thing. It's just which division/multiplication you use on them iirc. Maybe even just division. It's been a while. So the compiler just keeps track (or a dynamic language tags it; or, more likely, just has them all as signed)
2020-11-20T02:46:20Z aeth: Also, overflow semantics for addition is different (it's only defined for unsigned int in C iirc)
2020-11-20T02:46:41Z aeth: But I think it mostly just works for signed, anyway. On normal architectures, of course.
2020-11-20T02:47:19Z jcowan: Unless the compiler is taking advantage of the UB to say "Oh, this addition will always overflow, so abort compiling this function and carry on."
2020-11-20T02:47:31Z aeth: yeah, optimizing compilers are problematic
2020-11-20T02:47:36Z aeth: at least, with C
2020-11-20T02:48:04Z Riastradh: siraben: Here's some code I wrote recently that uses a union without an adjacent tag: https://nxr.netbsd.org/xref/src/sys/crypto/aes/aes.h#35, https://nxr.netbsd.org/xref/src/sys/crypto/aes/arch/arm/aes_neon.c#357, https://nxr.netbsd.org/xref/src/sys/crypto/aes/arch/x86/aes_sse2_subr.c#72
2020-11-20T02:48:32Z aeth: For languages that overflow into bignums by default (Lisps/Schemes), you want an optimizing compiler because you can use e.g. (mod (+ x 42) (expt 2 32)) or whatever power of 2 to force the wrapping semantics that could be optimized.
2020-11-20T02:48:36Z aeth: But it's being explicit...
2020-11-20T02:50:19Z Riastradh: siraben: It is tagged in a certain sense -- the OS kernel picks an AES implementation at boot time, and that choice of AES implementation is the tag, but downstream users of the API like <https://nxr.netbsd.org/xref/src/sys/uvm/uvm_swap.c#123> just allocate the same struct aesenc/aesdec no matter what implementation is chosen and no matter how it lays out the internals of that structure.
2020-11-20T02:50:37Z Riastradh: So there's no tag adjacent to the physical union object.
2020-11-20T02:55:29Z siraben: Riastradh: I'll take a look.
2020-11-20T02:56:54Z siraben: In full generality, distinguishing membership of members of unions without tags is undecidable
2020-11-20T02:57:04Z Riastradh: ?
2020-11-20T02:57:21Z siraben: have two injections f : A → A union B, g : B → A union B
2020-11-20T02:57:35Z siraben: Now, given a member of A union B, which set does it belong to?
2020-11-20T02:57:48Z jcowan: Well, obvs.  There is a double and an int64 which are equal and have the same bit representation, though I don't know what they are.  See HAKMEM for the PDP-10 versions.
2020-11-20T02:57:59Z jcowan: (other than zero, but zero will do for the argument)
2020-11-20T02:59:41Z Riastradh: siraben: Sure but usually that's not your task.
2020-11-20T03:00:42Z Riastradh: Generally either you're reinterpreting the representation of an object another way, or there is a tag somewhere -- just not physically adjacent in memory to the data.
2020-11-20T03:03:12Z Riastradh: Here's reinterpreting representation -- to write SSE register values as literal constants, since the Intel API doesn't support that for reasons that elude me, so I reinterpreted a pair of 64-bit integer constants to get the same effect: https://nxr.netbsd.org/xref/src/sys/crypto/aes/arch/x86/aes_ssse3.c#55
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2020-11-20T03:30:53Z Zipheir: jcowan: I'm going to have Yet Another SRFI 160 Pull Request for you.
2020-11-20T03:31:03Z jcowan: Good!
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2020-11-20T08:57:35Z amirouche: in a
2020-11-20T08:57:41Z amirouche: hello all :)
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2020-11-20T09:43:19Z amirouche: anyone has an example program that parser html and change something inside the html?
2020-11-20T09:43:36Z ecraven: I would use htmlprag for that
2020-11-20T09:43:51Z amirouche: how do you change the html ?
2020-11-20T09:43:59Z ecraven: then just mutate the sxml, and write it again
2020-11-20T09:44:22Z amirouche: that is not easy :)
2020-11-20T09:44:35Z ecraven: that depends entirely on what "change something" means exactly
2020-11-20T09:44:41Z amirouche: in python, I would xpath inside the dom and then update in-place the dom
2020-11-20T09:44:55Z ecraven: same here, just use ssax and sxpath, if that's what you want
2020-11-20T09:45:07Z amirouche: I want to add a style attribute, but more generaly how do I change the sxml
2020-11-20T09:45:29Z ecraven: set-car! and set-cdr!, if you directly want to mutate it
2020-11-20T09:45:48Z amirouche: sxpath does return the matched element, it does not allow to create a new sxml with some changes
2020-11-20T09:45:59Z amirouche: yeah, i could use set-car! and set-cdr!
2020-11-20T09:46:03Z amirouche: good catch
2020-11-20T09:46:17Z ecraven: I'm not aware of any proper API for making changes deeply inside an sxml expression
2020-11-20T09:46:23Z amirouche never used set-car! and set-cdr!
2020-11-20T09:46:29Z ecraven: so you are correct, that is something that might not have a good portable solution :-/
2020-11-20T09:46:34Z ecraven: (it really should though ;)
2020-11-20T09:46:43Z amirouche: There is guile's tree transformation called foldts IIRC but never used it.
2020-11-20T09:47:08Z amirouche: And I never understood how it works
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2020-11-20T10:18:26Z ecraven: well, lenses would be nice to do exactly this, but I don't know of any implementation for Scheme that provides helpers for all the html/xml stuff
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2020-11-20T10:29:07Z wasamasa: I think I have an example around
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2020-11-20T10:31:41Z wasamasa: not for guile of course, but the same ideas apply
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2020-11-20T10:32:22Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2ENb
2020-11-20T10:32:30Z wasamasa: file name: fix-calibre-html.scm
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2020-11-20T12:14:13Z wasamasa: hm, I think I broke the srfi-167 mailing list
2020-11-20T12:14:15Z wasamasa: https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-167/threads/2020/11/
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2020-11-20T12:40:02Z amirouche: Anway, thanks I will look into it this afternoon.
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2020-11-20T14:07:10Z mdhughes: I would most likely make a little mini-DOM record, parse into that, manipulate the objects, ask them to print themselves to get it back out.
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2020-11-20T16:05:09Z amirouche: that is what I was thinking, but a quicker and easier first attempt is using htmlprag, sxpath, and set-car!
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2020-11-21T01:16:23Z GlenK: hi there.  I'm doing sicp stuff with dr racket.  anyone have any guesses why this isn't working for me?  (#%require "./1_43.scm")
2020-11-21T01:16:50Z GlenK: I throw this in there and it works just fine:  (#%require "../common.scm")
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2020-11-21T06:36:38Z mdhughes: I just use (require ...) in my few Racket programs, dunno what #%require is for. Maybe ask in #racket
2020-11-21T06:37:42Z aeth: %foo is a CL-ism for low-level so that would be my first guess
2020-11-21T06:38:08Z aeth: hmm, yes. https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/require.html?q=%23%25require#%28form._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._~23~25require%29%29
2020-11-21T06:38:09Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/RWY2yYc4LP
2020-11-21T06:39:00Z aeth: In particular, it looks like #%foo might be a Racketism the thing that the macro foo expands into
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2020-11-21T07:47:28Z amirouche: sqlite for linux hacker: https://sqlite.org/lpc2019/doc/trunk/briefing.md
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2020-11-21T13:54:20Z ManDay: Can someone please explain the difference between (receive) and (let-values)?
2020-11-21T13:55:12Z ManDay: guile's documentation of `receive` sounds much like `let-values`, just a little less well-define (concerning `let-values*`)
2020-11-21T13:56:05Z wasamasa: receive is a non-standard convenience form
2020-11-21T13:56:17Z wasamasa: well, "non-standard": https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-8/
2020-11-21T13:56:30Z ManDay: That's what it says, but what's so convenient about it?
2020-11-21T13:56:36Z ManDay: Isn't it the same as let-values?
2020-11-21T13:56:43Z wasamasa: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-11/srfi-11.html
2020-11-21T13:56:56Z wasamasa: funnily enough none mentions the other
2020-11-21T13:57:26Z ManDay: You're slightly adding to my confusion rather than helping to resolve it
2020-11-21T13:57:50Z wasamasa: well, given these two SRFI documents you can now compare them
2020-11-21T13:58:37Z wasamasa: and receive is indeed more convenient as it gives you a single binding as opposed to a list of bindings
2020-11-21T13:59:19Z wasamasa: so implementing receive is a lot easier than implementing let-values
2020-11-21T13:59:55Z ManDay: I don't know what you mean. Receive sets multiple bindings
2020-11-21T14:00:13Z wasamasa: then look at the function signatures
2020-11-21T14:00:39Z ManDay: ah, ok
2020-11-21T14:01:03Z wasamasa: (receive (the names to bind) (the values) (the body))
2020-11-21T14:01:03Z ManDay: convenient as in "convenient for the implementation", not sure whether you're joking
2020-11-21T14:01:15Z wasamasa: just look at the document
2020-11-21T14:01:21Z ManDay: i always read "convenient" as convenient for the user
2020-11-21T14:01:23Z wasamasa: receive is five lines of code
2020-11-21T14:01:39Z wasamasa: let-values is, well, I don't want to bother counting, but several times that
2020-11-21T14:02:43Z wasamasa: (let-values (((the names to bind) (the values)) ((other names to bind) (other values))) (the body)
2020-11-21T14:02:55Z wasamasa: )
2020-11-21T14:03:12Z ManDay: i'm not sure I get your point.
2020-11-21T14:03:18Z ManDay: i just take away that "receive" is redundant
2020-11-21T14:03:29Z wasamasa: that's like saying let is redundant in the face of let*
2020-11-21T14:03:30Z ManDay: (special case of let-values, save a single pair of parens)
2020-11-21T14:03:45Z ManDay: no
2020-11-21T14:03:49Z wasamasa: if I see someone using let* when let would have sufficed...
2020-11-21T14:04:02Z ManDay: let* can get in the way if you don't want its semantics
2020-11-21T14:04:10Z ManDay: let-values can not.
2020-11-21T14:04:26Z wasamasa: similarly, I use receive nearly all the time
2020-11-21T14:04:35Z wasamasa: I have yet to need more than one set of bindings
2020-11-21T14:04:43Z ManDay: because you save a single pair of parens
2020-11-21T14:04:51Z ManDay: fair enough, still, i find this fairly redundant
2020-11-21T14:04:54Z wasamasa: let-values I use when the existing code commends me to
2020-11-21T14:05:21Z wasamasa: sure, all of the x86 instruction set is redundant in the face of mov
2020-11-21T14:05:43Z wasamasa: people still use more than one instruction
2020-11-21T14:06:23Z wasamasa: I'm curious though, can you show a case where you cannot substitute let with let*?
2020-11-21T14:06:38Z ManDay: (receive (a b c) (values 1 2 3) body) ==   (let-values ((a b c) (values 1 2 3)) body)     I really don't think your analogies have any substance with this
2020-11-21T14:07:37Z ManDay: wasamasa:   (let ((a (+ b a)) (f (+ a g))) ...) ?
2020-11-21T14:07:44Z wasamasa: ITYM (let-values (((a b c) (values 1 2 3))) body)
2020-11-21T14:07:52Z wasamasa: so you save even more parentheses
2020-11-21T14:08:05Z ManDay: wasamasa: all right, that one I missed
2020-11-21T14:08:28Z wasamasa: and if you go full on eliminating redundant forms, you should use call-with-values :>
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2020-11-21T14:10:06Z ManDay: i will use let-values over call-with-values every time. I find call-with-values horrible
2020-11-21T14:10:17Z wasamasa: and likewise, I find let-values horrible
2020-11-21T14:10:33Z ManDay: fine, receive then
2020-11-21T14:10:57Z ManDay: wait, i have to try this
2020-11-21T14:11:27Z edgar-rft: Scheme seems to be a valuable language :-)
2020-11-21T14:13:01Z ManDay: yes, i stand by my choice:   (receive (a b c) (give-me 3) (+ a b c))   compared to   (call-with-values (lambda () (give-me 3)) (+ a b c))
2020-11-21T14:13:20Z ManDay: but I think that was even you who told me about it yesterday
2020-11-21T14:13:24Z wasamasa: the latter looks incomplete
2020-11-21T14:13:50Z gwatt: that's not quite right. You'd do (call-with-values (lambda () (give-me 3)) +)
2020-11-21T14:13:52Z ManDay: right, my bad. it would have to be even worse
2020-11-21T14:14:23Z ManDay: oh, yes. sorry, I'm confused.
2020-11-21T14:15:17Z ManDay: so then there is no syntax which would work as `(??? (give-me 3) +)`, I suppose?
2020-11-21T14:15:29Z gwatt: Easy enough to write
2020-11-21T14:15:34Z ManDay: (like `apply` for lists)
2020-11-21T14:16:11Z ManDay: gwatt: yes, but to be honest I still haven't understood why *that* is the semantics of call-with-values (c.f. the argument that "values is not an object")
2020-11-21T14:16:20Z ManDay: s/is the/is NOT the/
2020-11-21T14:16:35Z wasamasa: (receive xs (give-me 3) (apply + xs))
2020-11-21T14:19:46Z ManDay: in fact... (lambda () (give-me 3)))  seems to suggest values (as in: the stuff returned by (give-me 3)) is treated much like any other object
2020-11-21T14:23:09Z gwatt: Ehh, each value is a distinct object, but multiple values have no standardized representation. The only defined behavior for multiple values is that you can use a values-producing thunk within call-with-values
2020-11-21T14:25:21Z ManDay: so, what exactly would be inconsistent if we defined `call-with-values` as (call-with-values body-which-returns-N body-which-wants-N)  such that it can be called like what wasamasa paraphrased into an apply?
2020-11-21T14:25:48Z ManDay: i.e.: such that (call-with-values (values 1 2 3) +) would work
2020-11-21T14:26:08Z wasamasa: you could write such a macro
2020-11-21T14:26:17Z wasamasa: in terms of the actual call-with-values using lambdas for that
2020-11-21T14:26:23Z gwatt: because returning multiple-values to a single value context is undefined
2020-11-21T14:26:38Z ManDay: gwatt: So?
2020-11-21T14:26:47Z wasamasa: is that so?
2020-11-21T14:26:56Z ManDay: wasamasa: yes. my question is why call-with-values isn't defined that way *in the first place*
2020-11-21T14:26:57Z wasamasa: I thought it just takes the first value and discards the rest
2020-11-21T14:27:07Z wasamasa: not everyone applies all the values, lol
2020-11-21T14:27:14Z ManDay: I see no benefit in defining call-with-values such that it only takes a lambda() it's first argument
2020-11-21T14:27:33Z gwatt: wasamasa: that's what guile does, but implementations are free to do whatever; it's unspecified.
2020-11-21T14:27:40Z wasamasa: hm, strange
2020-11-21T14:27:49Z ManDay: it just makes it awkward to use, because (i dare guess) most of the times you'll have to wrap a pointless lambda() around your stuff
2020-11-21T14:27:58Z ManDay: (at least I do)
2020-11-21T14:28:10Z ManDay: (but then again, that's the reason why I rarely use values)
2020-11-21T14:28:10Z wasamasa: because based on that, loads of code in CHICKEN breaks on, I dunno, non-guile I guess
2020-11-21T14:28:11Z gwatt: ManDay: call-with-values is a procedure, not a syntax. Therefore if you want special behavior you'll need to write your own macro
2020-11-21T14:28:56Z wasamasa: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-71/srfi-71.html
2020-11-21T14:29:12Z ManDay: gwatt: It's a procedure? So in terms of what is it written? let-values?
2020-11-21T14:29:14Z wasamasa: this is a pretty one, but it doesn't support the "Just collect all arguments and let apply deal with it" case
2020-11-21T14:29:39Z wasamasa: let-values is syntax written in terms of the call-with-values procedure
2020-11-21T14:30:12Z gwatt: ManDay: call-with-values is a core part of the language and must be written by the implementor
2020-11-21T14:31:26Z gwatt: https://scheme.com/tspl4/control.html#./control:s71
2020-11-21T14:31:37Z ManDay: then I don't understand your argument. Why is it not simply defined in the way that I'd like it?
2020-11-21T14:32:51Z ManDay: What's the actual difference between saying "the implementation must provide call-with-values which does <canonical definition>" vs. "the implementation must provide call-with-values such that it does <ManDay's definition>"?
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2020-11-21T14:33:13Z periish: test
2020-11-21T14:33:22Z wasamasa: ManDay: interoperability
2020-11-21T14:33:28Z ManDay: hm?
2020-11-21T14:34:01Z wasamasa: why be your own tiny island just to make that one usecase of yours marginally easier
2020-11-21T14:34:17Z wasamasa: it's like some bully in the sandbox refusing to play with the others
2020-11-21T14:34:31Z wasamasa: because they impose rules on him
2020-11-21T14:34:49Z gwatt: ManDay: I don't have a good answer for that. I'm not and have never been a part of the standardization committee nor do I have any insight as to why a scheme implementor might want the current state of affairs. All I can do is try to explain what the current state is. You don't have to like it, but you are perfectly free to write your own macro that does what you want.
2020-11-21T14:35:05Z ManDay: wasamasa: cut the nonsense please. I explained that by my experience the current definition of call-with-values just causes unnecessary typing by wrapping things in a lambda.
2020-11-21T14:35:20Z ManDay: if that isn't so for the majority of people then I'd like to understand why
2020-11-21T14:35:22Z wasamasa: yeah and to make things easier for you all existing code using call-with-values should break?
2020-11-21T14:35:27Z wasamasa: seriously?
2020-11-21T14:35:41Z periish: I assume this isn't a good time to ask for guidance, haha
2020-11-21T14:35:48Z ManDay: wasamasa: I'm not suggesting it be changed! I ask *Why* it is so and not defined like I'd prefer it in the first place!
2020-11-21T14:35:58Z ManDay: wasamasa: I can't believe you misunderstood that!
2020-11-21T14:36:02Z wasamasa: well, then do archeology on the scheme mailing lists and newsgroups
2020-11-21T14:36:05Z wasamasa: see if it makes you happy
2020-11-21T14:36:08Z gwatt: periish: as long as it's not about call-with-values you should be good. ;-p
2020-11-21T14:36:15Z periish: Alright then
2020-11-21T14:36:18Z ManDay: wasamasa: I think you're having a bad day...
2020-11-21T14:36:28Z ManDay: Anyway, I think we're done with the discussion.
2020-11-21T14:36:34Z ManDay: (and yes, I understood what you mean)
2020-11-21T14:37:04Z periish: I'm doing imperative programming with mit-scheme(the horror!), and I'm defining myself a set of functions to deal with a stack data structure
2020-11-21T14:38:50Z edgar-rft: is this the channel for value calling? :-)
2020-11-21T14:39:00Z periish: I want to have a function akin to (begin) that takes two expressions, but rather than returning the last expression, it returns the first.
2020-11-21T14:39:18Z periish: I've tried (lambda (x y) y) but it seems not to work, sadly.
2020-11-21T14:39:21Z wasamasa: well, begin is not a function to start with
2020-11-21T14:39:30Z periish: Ah
2020-11-21T14:39:31Z wasamasa: you'll need to define a begin0 macro
2020-11-21T14:39:51Z periish: I assume that's why lambda (x y) y didn't work
2020-11-21T14:39:54Z periish: Thank you!
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2020-11-21T14:43:51Z wasamasa: adapted from the miscmacros egg using call-with-values:
2020-11-21T14:43:54Z periish: mit-scheme doesn't seem to have a (defmacro)
2020-11-21T14:43:55Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2EXl
2020-11-21T14:43:57Z gwatt: well, wouldn't you want (lambda (x y) instead?
2020-11-21T14:44:15Z gwatt: (lambda (x y) x) I mean
2020-11-21T14:44:30Z periish: Yea, I just omitted the outside braces
2020-11-21T14:44:39Z periish: Oh wait
2020-11-21T14:44:47Z periish: Maybe
2020-11-21T14:44:54Z wasamasa: even in a way that's compatible with what ManDay proposed :P
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2020-11-21T14:47:09Z periish: Hmm, I'm getting an ominous error. I'll upload to termbin.
2020-11-21T14:48:01Z periish: https://termbin.com/r8mou
2020-11-21T14:49:47Z wasamasa: the problem with that definition is that it doesn't guarantee sequential evaluation order
2020-11-21T14:50:00Z periish: Ah
2020-11-21T14:50:21Z wasamasa: while all arguments to lambda are evaluated, nothing forbids from evaluating them right-to-left
2020-11-21T14:50:33Z periish: Ok, that's useful to know
2020-11-21T14:52:02Z wasamasa: so what's the error?
2020-11-21T14:52:32Z periish: ;The object (), passed as the first argument to cdr, is not the correct type.
2020-11-21T14:52:48Z wasamasa: yeah, you can't use cdr on the empty list
2020-11-21T14:52:53Z periish: Hm.
2020-11-21T14:53:10Z wasamasa: hence why you see (if (null? stack) ...) all over the place
2020-11-21T14:56:20Z periish: How would I ensure that x gets evaluated before y in (?begin)?
2020-11-21T14:56:33Z wasamasa: by writing a macro, like the one I posted above
2020-11-21T14:56:51Z periish: Oh!
2020-11-21T14:57:52Z periish: I'll have to learn how that works
2020-11-21T14:57:59Z periish: Thank you for the guidance ^^
2020-11-21T14:58:01Z wasamasa: it replaces your code with other code
2020-11-21T14:59:24Z wasamasa: but really, the easiest solution is to just use let to capture the thing you want to return, do other things in its body, then return that captured thing
2020-11-21T14:59:39Z wasamasa: which is how a less sophisticated implementation of begin0 could look like
2020-11-21T15:00:53Z periish: Alright, thanks
2020-11-21T15:01:44Z wasamasa: and your pop! better be a lambda
2020-11-21T15:02:16Z wasamasa: which is what gives you the car error
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2020-11-21T16:51:14Z ManDay: silly question perhaps but what is the most concise way to write (list-append (list #f #f #f ...<n times>...) l) ?
2020-11-21T16:51:46Z Riastradh: (append (make-list n #f) l)?
2020-11-21T16:51:59Z periish: Damn, beaten by someone faster than me
2020-11-21T16:51:59Z Riastradh: well
2020-11-21T16:52:07Z Riastradh: `(,@(make-list n #f) ,@l) is slightly conciser
2020-11-21T16:52:19Z Riastradh: but I would just use append.
2020-11-21T16:52:22Z periish: Hurts clarity greatly though
2020-11-21T16:52:36Z periish: looks like a perl program
2020-11-21T16:53:25Z ManDay: oh, I had something like that in mind but I thought it was in srfi-1 and I couldn't find it, heh
2020-11-21T16:53:28Z ManDay: thanks
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2020-11-21T17:16:15Z periish: Alright, another question: I've got a list containing cons cells. What's the 'proper' way to see if a member is in the car of any of the cons cells?
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2020-11-21T17:16:44Z periish: Oh, there's assq/v
2020-11-21T17:20:48Z wasamasa: assoc, too
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2020-11-21T17:25:48Z periish: This is quite fun
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2020-11-21T17:58:10Z periish: What's a 'correct' way to parse a string into a list? Specifically, elements enclosed in '' are treated as one element of the list, and spaces are the deliminator.
2020-11-21T17:58:32Z periish: In an imperative programming language, you'd just iterate through, but that's not very scheme-y.
2020-11-21T18:03:09Z periish: I suppose the term to use would be 'idiomatic'.
2020-11-21T18:04:04Z mdhughes: SRFI-13 has string-tokenize
2020-11-21T18:04:20Z mdhughes: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-13/srfi-13.html#string-tokenize
2020-11-21T18:05:14Z mdhughes: (And it's fine to iterate in Scheme! Either with named-let loops or for or whatever. It's just less common and not efficient to list-ref)
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2020-11-21T18:07:23Z periish: It doesn't seem like mit-scheme is SRFI-13 comaptible then
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2020-11-21T18:10:25Z periish: Yea, the string part of the reference makes no mentions of tokens :/
2020-11-21T18:10:37Z periish: I suppose I iterate through a (string->list)?
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2020-11-21T18:19:25Z Zipheir: periish: If you're writing a simple parser, string->list is usually the best way to start, yes.
2020-11-21T18:20:42Z periish: Yea, it's a very simplistic parser
2020-11-21T18:20:51Z Zipheir: periish: From a functional perspective, parsing a string is a fold.  Since string->list is an unfold, you can think of this as an unfold-fold (hylomorphism) pattern.
2020-11-21T18:21:13Z Zipheir: As usual with hylomorphisms, there are opportunities for fusing the two halves of the process.
2020-11-21T18:21:21Z periish: Oh?
2020-11-21T18:21:40Z Zipheir: Very generally speaking.
2020-11-21T18:22:31Z Zipheir: It non-jargony terms, there always are when you're building a structure (a list of characters in this case) just to tear it down.
2020-11-21T18:24:07Z periish: Mhm, I was hoping to avoid that
2020-11-21T18:24:42Z Zipheir: Don't worry about it, if you're just doing a simple parsing exercise.
2020-11-21T18:25:02Z periish: I'm doing this as a project to learn Scheme
2020-11-21T18:25:07Z Zipheir: Yeah.
2020-11-21T18:25:15Z Zipheir: Efficiency isn't important, then.
2020-11-21T18:25:18Z periish: I learn by doing, so I want to do things as correctly as possible
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2020-11-21T18:26:25Z Zipheir: A common functional approach to simple parsing is to have a parser take a list of characters/tokens and return a parsed value and the (unconsumed) rest of the list.
2020-11-21T18:27:30Z periish: That's a possibility
2020-11-21T18:28:24Z Zipheir: e.g. (define (parse-op input) (let ((op (case (car input) ((#\+) '+) ((\#-) '-) ... (else #f)))) (if op (values op (cdr input) (error "unexpected character" (car input)))))
2020-11-21T18:29:01Z Zipheir: This is the foundation of monadic parsing systems like Parsec.
2020-11-21T18:30:30Z Zipheir: But it's really nothing more than a classic LL(k) parser where input is an argument.
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2020-11-21T18:47:55Z tatsumaru: hey, new programmer here learning scheme as a first language. Can you please tell me how to install the latest version of Scheme on Arch Linux?
2020-11-21T18:48:08Z tatsumaru: Unlike other languages I couldn't find a package for it in the repositories.
2020-11-21T18:48:49Z ecraven: tatsumaru: there are many implementations, most of them have an arch linux packagke
2020-11-21T18:49:17Z tatsumaru: which one is best to start with?
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2020-11-21T18:56:28Z wasamasa: depends on your needs really
2020-11-21T18:56:46Z wasamasa: what do you plan to do and what do you need?
2020-11-21T18:57:45Z wasamasa: implementations can be small, big, popular, obscure, well documented, embeddable, interoperable, fast, slow, ...
2020-11-21T18:58:07Z wasamasa: some are for getting things done, others are interesting to study
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2020-11-21T18:59:47Z ecraven: I'd say these days start with guile, chicken, gerbil/gambit or racket (but I'm surely forgetting 5 other great Schemes there)
2020-11-21T19:07:44Z jcowan: To show how diverse Scheme implementations actually are, see http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#H-19kqio1 (but it is not a guide)
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2020-11-21T19:10:13Z jcowan: And for a lot of opinions on the virtues of different Schemes for this and that, read https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations down to comment 32 (after that it's spam).
2020-11-21T19:10:20Z jcowan: tatsumaru: ^^
2020-11-21T19:10:53Z tatsumaru: wasamasa I would like to learn something with an acceptable documentation and at least a minimal community so that I can find help if I am stuck. Also I am learning Scheme for several reasons - 1. To get a better understanding of functional programming and of programming in general, to learn a language that has continuations, and to learn a language that will help me write automations of daily tasks and also help me understand Clojure be
2020-11-21T19:10:53Z tatsumaru: tter later down the line.
2020-11-21T19:12:07Z tatsumaru: jcowan thanks I will check these out
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2020-11-21T19:13:38Z wasamasa: additionally to the above, gauche and chibi have plenty extra functionality for the automation aspect
2020-11-21T19:14:22Z wasamasa: all except gerbil are in the arch repos
2020-11-21T19:14:58Z tatsumaru: can you also explain what R5RS and R7RS mean and what's the difference? Is this like the Python 2 and 3 thing?
2020-11-21T19:15:04Z wasamasa: worse
2020-11-21T19:15:34Z wasamasa: it's like C99 and C11
2020-11-21T19:16:14Z wasamasa: one has been around forever, the other has all the interesting features to write libraries in
2020-11-21T19:16:48Z jcowan: But R7RS is 99.9% backward compatible with R5RS.
2020-11-21T19:17:16Z tatsumaru: Hmm, interesting so basically just learn R7RS?
2020-11-21T19:17:17Z jcowan: indeed, compatibility across all Schemes is very good unless it depends on native libraries, because it's easy to write shims to supply any missing functionality
2020-11-21T19:17:53Z wasamasa: if you know what you're doing, sure
2020-11-21T19:18:10Z jcowan: Which is very different from even Python 2.7 vs Python 3.recent.
2020-11-21T19:18:30Z wasamasa: r7rs limits you to a lot less implementations
2020-11-21T19:23:27Z jcowan: Very true.  But there is a nice list at the back of the R7RS standard explaining the incompatibilities, of which the biggest is the library system: there is no direct R5RS equivalent, which means most Schemes have rolled their own
2020-11-21T19:24:47Z tatsumaru: jcowan that article for the scheme implementations was really helpful thanks
2020-11-21T19:25:02Z tatsumaru: I think I will start with Racket for now
2020-11-21T19:26:01Z wasamasa: racket originated in r6rs and is now, who knows really
2020-11-21T19:26:28Z wasamasa: https://old.reddit.com/r/schemememe/comments/fun206/a_schemer_tries_racket/
2020-11-21T19:27:46Z tatsumaru: you don't have a great opinion of racket?
2020-11-21T19:28:42Z wasamasa: my only interactions so far were trying to get its r7rs module working with a multi-file project (I failed and nobody knew how to do that) and following along with a scheme book (that worked pretty well)
2020-11-21T19:28:56Z wasamasa: but if your goal is learning r5rs or r7rs, it won't help you I'm afraid
2020-11-21T19:31:26Z tatsumaru: lol there's an implementation called Stalin
2020-11-21T19:31:35Z Riastradh: you don't want to use stalin
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2020-11-21T19:35:57Z jcowan: Even less do you want to develop it.
2020-11-21T19:36:36Z jcowan: Regrettably it is a complete dead end, though a front end like Unsyntax or Rapid might improve it.
2020-11-21T19:36:40Z jcowan: would improve it
2020-11-21T19:36:42Z tatsumaru: I am guessing anyone who would name their implementation Stalin wasn't too serious about the project
2020-11-21T19:37:00Z jcowan: Oh no, very serious.  "Stalin optimizes your code, brutally."
2020-11-21T19:37:21Z wasamasa: number crunching serious
2020-11-21T19:37:43Z Zipheir: Jeff Siskind seems to have an odd sense of humor.
2020-11-21T19:38:01Z Zipheir: Like his unmistakable, inscrutable error message: "fuck up"
2020-11-21T19:38:24Z jcowan: Again, better than the error message of ed(1) to bad input:  "?"
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2020-11-21T19:39:56Z jcowan: Socially, however, the project is completely disfunctional.  Siskind says it does everything *he* needs, and there is not so much as a stalin-users mailing list for people to share patches.  The users I have talked to basically say "Works for me", which is another version of "Fuck you, Jack, *I'm* all right."
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2020-11-21T19:40:39Z Zipheir: The Curse of Lisp in action.
2020-11-21T19:41:10Z tatsumaru: It feels similar to the linux distro communities
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2020-11-21T19:42:04Z tatsumaru: But I guess this freedom accelerates evolution - everyone is allowed to hack and do their own experiment and some of the experiments work others not so much
2020-11-21T19:44:18Z Zipheir: And clusters of people with similar attitudes and interests can rapidly become hostile to outside ideas.
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2020-11-21T19:53:17Z tatsumaru: Madness of crowds
2020-11-21T19:54:33Z tatsumaru: Paul Graham wrote a nice relevant essay about this, about keeping a low identity
2020-11-21T19:55:35Z tatsumaru: http://paulgraham.com/identity.html
2020-11-21T19:55:54Z Zipheir: See, the nice thing about the Scheme world is that, for every unfamiliar idea, there will be enthusiasts and people who call it the anathema of everything Lisp is about.
2020-11-21T19:56:27Z tatsumaru: Is the scheme world sufficiently different than the overall lisp world?
2020-11-21T19:58:31Z Zipheir: It's not as pedantic, in my experience.  Or at least there are pendants of different disciplines.
2020-11-21T19:58:45Z Zipheir: Pedants, even.
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2020-11-21T19:59:20Z Zipheir: That's an interesting Graham post.
2020-11-21T20:00:26Z imode: are there any network primitives in scheme?
2020-11-21T20:00:35Z tatsumaru: Considering that it requires a bit more open mindedness and curiosity to be interested in something like Scheme or Lisp, I am a bit surprised that these communities are also experiencing noticeable degree of hostility.
2020-11-21T20:01:13Z imode: it probably depends on the specific dialect but I'm wondering if there's some concensus like I/O ports.
2020-11-21T20:02:11Z Zipheir: imode: Ports are in every standard.  There's a socket SRFI somewhere, I think.
2020-11-21T20:02:36Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: You'd think everyone would be friends, rather than arguing all the time...
2020-11-21T20:03:40Z Zipheir: Here it is: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-106/srfi-106.html  I'm not sure which Schemes implement it, though.
2020-11-21T20:04:08Z imode: huh, I can't seem to find the standard text on ports on r6rs.org
2020-11-21T20:04:14Z imode: thank you.
2020-11-21T20:05:27Z Zipheir: Also, what rock does Paul Graham live under that he thinks threads about JavaScript *don't* become religious arguments?
2020-11-21T20:06:22Z tatsumaru: Zipheir, oddly enough I thought about this too after I sent you the link. I guess he thought that relative to religious fights, code fights weren't that big of a deal.
2020-11-21T20:07:02Z tatsumaru: after all it's unlikely to get killed by stoning if you say that javascript sucks.
2020-11-21T20:07:35Z wasamasa: Zipheir: isn't it exactly one?
2020-11-21T20:07:48Z Zipheir: No, we enlightened computer science people merely sit down and say "Calculemus!".
2020-11-21T20:07:56Z wasamasa: ok, three
2020-11-21T20:08:03Z wasamasa: that's an impressive amount
2020-11-21T20:08:20Z Zipheir: wasamasa: SRFI 106 implementations?
2020-11-21T20:08:22Z wasamasa: yes
2020-11-21T20:08:38Z wasamasa: maybe I should try making it four
2020-11-21T20:08:43Z wasamasa: depending on how much I hate myself
2020-11-21T20:08:51Z wasamasa: socket stuff is pretty awful, despite being a small API
2020-11-21T20:09:02Z tatsumaru: wasamasa loveyourself and make them two?
2020-11-21T20:09:08Z Zipheir: Yes, but at least the vast majority of Schemes have some socket language.
2020-11-21T20:09:22Z wasamasa: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/schemedoc/srfi-metadata/blob/master/table.html
2020-11-21T20:09:31Z wasamasa: tatsumaru: going from three to four, not three to two
2020-11-21T20:09:53Z tatsumaru: nevermind, it was a lame attempt at a joke
2020-11-21T20:10:32Z Zipheir: imode: It's in the library for R6 http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-9.html#node_sec_8.2
2020-11-21T20:13:09Z Zipheir: The weird thing about the "Lisp perspective" as manifested on IRC is that it's *aggressively* hybrid.  Talk about immutability or use trees where someone else is using vectors and you'll be run out of town as a secret Haskeller.
2020-11-21T20:14:26Z tatsumaru: Maybe people are secretly afraid that the paradigms they identify with will be made obsolete by new ones and are fighting to protect them.
2020-11-21T20:14:31Z imode: thanks!
2020-11-21T20:15:59Z Zipheir: Maybe so.
2020-11-21T20:16:06Z tatsumaru: I thought immutability was a cool feature to be honest
2020-11-21T20:17:16Z Zipheir: And prominent Schemers have made big steps toward more immutable structures in the language, e.g. https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-135/srfi-135.html
2020-11-21T20:17:40Z Zipheir: But there's a whole other subculture that regards this as No Good, Very Bad, and Awful.
2020-11-21T20:18:14Z tatsumaru: well isn't is simply possible to have some implementations that are immutable and some that aren't and voila?
2020-11-21T20:19:08Z Zipheir: It depends on what's immutable.  Standard Scheme has to have set!, set-car!, vector-set!, etc.
2020-11-21T20:19:51Z Zipheir: But I do think there's room for a Scheme-like language without set! and with linear-update vector-set!.
2020-11-21T20:20:50Z Zipheir: Mutable strings really only exist for backwards-compatibility, IIUC, and that's unfortunate.
2020-11-21T20:21:42Z tatsumaru: this might be a stupid question as I am just a programming noob, but is it hypothetically possible for languages to have something like modes where you can disable certain features for your code?
2020-11-21T20:22:34Z Zipheir: Something like Racket's "lang" system?
2020-11-21T20:22:56Z imode: I'm working on that for my language.
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2020-11-21T20:23:12Z imode: useful for running untrusted code.
2020-11-21T20:24:46Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: It depends on what features you want to turn on/off.  If it's just a matter of making different forms available, then that's just a module system.
2020-11-21T20:25:04Z tatsumaru: can you turn mutability off?
2020-11-21T20:25:20Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: Deeper changes to, say, language semantics would require a lang system or compiler extensions.
2020-11-21T20:25:34Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: What do you mean by that?
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2020-11-21T20:26:21Z tatsumaru: I guess that doesn't make a lot of sense.
2020-11-21T20:26:23Z karme joined #scheme
2020-11-21T20:26:31Z Zipheir: There are different kinds of mutation in Scheme, for instance.
2020-11-21T20:26:57Z Zipheir: e.g. set! and set-car! do very different things.
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2020-11-21T20:27:58Z Zipheir: But you could certainly imagine a compiler/interpreter mode which causes procedures like set-car! to raise an exception.
2020-11-21T20:28:26Z tatsumaru: but will you be able to run your code then?
2020-11-21T20:29:18Z Zipheir: Sure, why not?
2020-11-21T20:30:25Z Zipheir: A good project would be to write a Scheme interpreter which has a switch for no-mutate-things mode.
2020-11-21T20:31:13Z wasamasa: the real test is if you're trying to use libraries relying on an incompatible setting compared to the main code
2020-11-21T20:31:49Z imode: my solution is just to write a sandboxed evaluator.
2020-11-21T20:32:03Z tatsumaru: If it's like you say that mutability is supported primarily for backwards compatibility, would it be possible to choose to not have backward compatibility in order to minimize side effects?
2020-11-21T20:32:27Z wasamasa: consider that hackernews depends on an ancient version of racket not forcing immutability on you
2020-11-21T20:32:47Z tatsumaru: wasn't hackernews written in Graham's Ark?
2020-11-21T20:32:51Z imode: yeah.
2020-11-21T20:32:57Z Zipheir: Mutable *strings* are there for backwards-compat.
2020-11-21T20:33:20Z wasamasa: arc is implemented on top of ancient racket
2020-11-21T20:34:21Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: You can, of course, write side-effectless Scheme, provided you don't worry about things like I/O.
2020-11-21T20:34:37Z Zipheir: (Or roll your own anemic I/O monad.)
2020-11-21T20:34:51Z tatsumaru: how does one not worry about things like I/O
2020-11-21T20:35:06Z Zipheir: Accept that it entails side-effects.
2020-11-21T20:35:39Z Zipheir: (read-char PORT) changes the state of PORT.  That's all.
2020-11-21T20:35:49Z Riastradh: What it really means is isolating the non-I/O parts of your program from the I/O parts, so when you're working with the non-I/O parts of the computation you don't have to worry about I/O.
2020-11-21T20:36:14Z imode: yeah. if you want your program to interact with the outside world, you control where that interaction happens vs. it happening arbitrarily.
2020-11-21T20:36:22Z tatsumaru: Riastradh is that a best practice in general?
2020-11-21T20:36:22Z Zipheir: And that.  As usual, Riastradh remembers the important parts.
2020-11-21T20:36:35Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-11-21T20:36:36Z imode: by phrasing access to the outside world as a resource rather than something pervasive, you can control what code does what.
2020-11-21T20:36:40Z Riastradh: In Haskell, this is labelled and enforced in the type system: any part of the program that involves I/O necessarily has `IO' as part of its type (barring the evil escape of unsafePerformIO).
2020-11-21T20:37:45Z Zipheir: imode: That's a nice way to put it.
2020-11-21T20:38:40Z tatsumaru: imode: I am not sure what that means, but it sounds cool
2020-11-21T20:39:37Z imode: pretty much says you need a handle to the "world" in order to communicate/modify the "world".
2020-11-21T20:40:15Z imode: much like you need a key to access things in the real world that are behind locked doors.
2020-11-21T20:40:31Z imode: the key is easy to carry around, but only the people that need the key get the key.
2020-11-21T20:40:56Z tatsumaru: sounds like encryption
2020-11-21T20:40:56Z Zipheir: And that access can fail or at the very least produce different values at different times.
2020-11-21T20:41:17Z imode: and can be mocked!
2020-11-21T20:42:06Z imode: tatsumaru: better analogy. in order to communicate with your friends, you need a radio, a telephone, or some kind of object that lets you communicate with them. this can be passed between different people, but typically the only reason for having it is communicating with someone.
2020-11-21T20:42:31Z imode: it's a single "thing" you can use and pass around, but its use is limited to the people who want to make phone calls or talk with someone.
2020-11-21T20:42:47Z tatsumaru: I see
2020-11-21T20:42:54Z imode: people who don't need to do those things don't need the phone.
2020-11-21T20:43:29Z imode: digging back into code, your code can pass the "phone" around to various parts of the program, but there are parts of your program that don't need access to the phone.
2020-11-21T20:43:59Z imode: that's what defines the mutability barrier: stuff that doesn't need to speak to the outside world doesn't need the phone, so it doesn't take it as a parameter.
2020-11-21T20:44:20Z imode: mocking is just replacing that phone with a tape recorder with some pre-recorded messages.
2020-11-21T20:44:35Z Zipheir: o_O
2020-11-21T20:44:44Z Zipheir: This is going a bit far...
2020-11-21T20:44:55Z imode: analogies stretch like rubber. :P
2020-11-21T20:45:30Z tatsumaru: what does syntactic sugar mean?
2020-11-21T20:45:41Z imode: it's bad for your teeth.
2020-11-21T20:45:48Z Zipheir: A convenient shorthand.
2020-11-21T20:46:34Z Zipheir: In C, a->x is "sugar for" (*a).x.
2020-11-21T20:47:22Z tatsumaru: hmm, is it an optimization for frequently written things?
2020-11-21T20:47:30Z Zipheir: "Syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon." (Alan Perlis)
2020-11-21T20:47:36Z Zipheir: Sure.
2020-11-21T20:47:56Z Zipheir: But *not* a code optimization.
2020-11-21T20:48:09Z Zipheir: It's an optimization for your fingers.
2020-11-21T20:48:37Z tatsumaru: does it ever make sense not to use it?
2020-11-21T20:50:56Z Zipheir: It's hard to answer that in general.
2020-11-21T20:52:14Z Zipheir: I'd say it's a stylistic choice.
2020-11-21T20:52:28Z tatsumaru: I see, thanks
2020-11-21T20:53:05Z tatsumaru: what is the best programming book you've read?
2020-11-21T20:53:20Z tatsumaru: I am going through SICP now
2020-11-21T20:53:27Z Riastradh: Le Petit Prince
2020-11-21T20:53:28Z Zipheir: That's a really good one. :)
2020-11-21T20:53:37Z Zipheir: That's also a good one.
2020-11-21T20:54:17Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: I always recommend The Little Schemer, as well as the rest of the Little series.
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2020-11-21T20:54:36Z tatsumaru: these are rather advanced right?
2020-11-21T20:55:03Z Zipheir: Not at all.
2020-11-21T20:55:26Z Zipheir: I mean, The Little Schemer deals with some massively deep ideas about computation, but it's lots of fun.
2020-11-21T20:56:59Z Zipheir: Bird & Wadler is also a great book: https://usi-pl.github.io/lc/sp-2015/doc/Bird_Wadler.%20Introduction%20to%20Functional%20Programming.1ed.pdf
2020-11-21T20:57:15Z Zipheir: "The classic text on functional programming", according to SRFI 41.
2020-11-21T20:57:52Z tatsumaru: what language is the Bird book using
2020-11-21T20:58:37Z Zipheir: It's a general ML-like language with lazy evaluation.
2020-11-21T20:58:55Z Zipheir: They provide translations to Miranda.  The more recent editions use Haskell.
2020-11-21T20:59:40Z aeth: I stopped reading The Little Schemer when I finally "got" recursion. I might've never really understood it without that book. I guess if Zipheir is right, then it goes way deeper, possibly in the sequels (there are 2-3)
2020-11-21T21:00:22Z Zipheir: aeth: Then you missed the last chapters!
2020-11-21T21:00:29Z Riastradh: L'apprenti sorcier is also good (if you don't mind something that is, in a sense, available only in audiobook form).
2020-11-21T21:00:33Z Zipheir: There are at least 6 sequels now.
2020-11-21T21:01:09Z Riastradh: (there's also a Disney animation of it which is, surprisingly, quite good)
2020-11-21T21:01:40Z Zipheir: Riastradh: You're being rather cryptic today.
2020-11-21T21:02:09Z Riastradh: am not, these are plainly excellent works about programming
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2020-11-21T21:02:55Z aeth: ouch, if I search "The Little Schemer" on DDG, some random pirated PDF outranks the official page of https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/little-schemer-fourth-edition
2020-11-21T21:03:33Z aeth: that page has 3 sibling books, not really sequels
2020-11-21T21:04:11Z aeth: It looks like there are only 2 sequels, Seasoned and Reasoned, at least by the author. https://mitpress.mit.edu/contributors/daniel-p-friedman
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2020-11-21T21:04:40Z tatsumaru: are the sequels also good?
2020-11-21T21:04:44Z Zipheir: Only Seasoned is really a sequel.
2020-11-21T21:05:07Z Zipheir: I like some more than others.  Reasoned Schemer is fantastic, as is The Little Typer.
2020-11-21T21:05:28Z Zipheir: I found Little MLer a bit disappointing.  Ditto Little Prover.
2020-11-21T21:05:38Z aeth: The sibling books are The Little MLer (the only that is entirely unrelated to Scheme?), The Little Prover, and The Little Typer
2020-11-21T21:05:51Z Zipheir: There's also a Java one D-:
2020-11-21T21:05:59Z aeth: So that's what you're counting as sequel #6?
2020-11-21T21:06:07Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-11-21T21:06:15Z aeth: 1997... https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/little-java-few-patterns
2020-11-21T21:06:50Z aeth: I guess if you go off of https://mitpress.mit.edu/contributors/matthias-felleisen then HtDP is a sequel too :-p
2020-11-21T21:07:44Z aeth: they should've called it The Gigantic Racketeer
2020-11-21T21:07:44Z Zipheir: tasumaru: Little Scheme and Seasoned Schemer provide an intro to Scheme, basically.  The Reasoned Schemer is about miniKanren (which is embedded in Scheme), and The Little Typer uses Pie, a dependently-typed Scheme-like language.
2020-11-21T21:07:50Z Zipheir: Hah.
2020-11-21T21:08:01Z Zipheir: I wonder how good Realm of Racket is?
2020-11-21T21:08:19Z Zipheir: Obviously less good than Land of Lisp, since *that* has a music video.
2020-11-21T21:08:39Z tatsumaru: I just started realm of racket
2020-11-21T21:08:44Z tatsumaru: a couple days ago
2020-11-21T21:08:58Z Zipheir: Do you like it?
2020-11-21T21:10:08Z aeth: Zipheir: Land of Lisp isn't that good because it's dated, and unfortunately was published in 2010 according to [1], which was basically the worst time to do so because it means it was outdated within a few years, which is incredibly hard to do for a Lisp book. [1] https://nostarch.com/lisp.htm
2020-11-21T21:10:36Z Zipheir: Eh, Common Lisp hasn't changed much since then.
2020-11-21T21:11:25Z Zipheir: It reminds me pleasantly of the goofy programming books of the 90s.
2020-11-21T21:11:53Z aeth: I mean e.g. it recommends the use of CLISP, which is now essentially dead (more like on life support, it gets commits, but not enough to do a new release). No new release since 2010-07-07 so the book might've even been released *after* CLISP's final (for now) release.
2020-11-21T21:12:03Z aeth: CLISP wasn't really considered "dead" until 2012 or 2013, though.
2020-11-21T21:12:10Z aeth: Only one chapter actually requires CLISP, though.
2020-11-21T21:12:17Z wasamasa: but there is a new release, Realm of Racket
2020-11-21T21:12:33Z wasamasa: and the author got support by plenty of people to make an actually educational book
2020-11-21T21:12:56Z tatsumaru: I am not sure whether I like it or not. It's positioned as a newbie friendly book, and I guess it is but I think it's flow isn't very good. I often have to play with the code to understand what is what as it's not always explained in much detail.
2020-11-21T21:13:20Z aeth: Also, Land of Lisp mentions Arc language as a serious thing, so it really shows that it was written in 2008 and not any time before or after, since Arc immediately flopped and everyone forgot about it (it has had one and only use anywhere: Hacker News)
2020-11-21T21:13:51Z tatsumaru: aeth, I think Paul Graham recently launched a new lisp
2020-11-21T21:13:54Z periish: Never heard of Arc
2020-11-21T21:14:11Z aeth: It's like Land of Lisp was perfectly timed (1) to be a rare Lisp book that feels dated and (2) to have a minimal number of years before it became dated.
2020-11-21T21:14:26Z Zipheir: aeth: Yeah, I forgot that it recommends CLISP. :-p
2020-11-21T21:14:28Z aeth: You probably could only get a more dated book if it involved graphics or gamedev.
2020-11-21T21:14:45Z periish: Isn't CLISP useful for bootstrapping, still?
2020-11-21T21:14:58Z aeth: Yes, it's basically only used to bootstrap SBCL these days.
2020-11-21T21:15:06Z periish: Thought so
2020-11-21T21:15:10Z periish: Never packaged languages
2020-11-21T21:15:15Z periish: Took one look at the rust process
2020-11-21T21:15:18Z periish: Wanted to cry
2020-11-21T21:15:18Z tatsumaru: is SBCL the current upto date standard?
2020-11-21T21:15:42Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: Given that the CL standard is very old...
2020-11-21T21:15:47Z periish: I suppose there's a first for everything
2020-11-21T21:15:55Z Zipheir: SBCL is probably the most-used CL.
2020-11-21T21:16:43Z aeth: My guess is that SBCL is 10x more used than CCL which is at least 3x more used than the rest, which are all too close to each other to reall tell apart, but ECL seems to be the #3 on IRC. My Scheme only intends to support these 3 for now.
2020-11-21T21:16:47Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: Yes, I had a similar impression of LoL.  He gives you a big hairy function and doesn't generally explain very carefully what it does.
2020-11-21T21:16:52Z imode: does scheme have a module system? or does everything sit in the "global namespace".
2020-11-21T21:16:55Z aeth: s/reall/really/
2020-11-21T21:17:04Z Zipheir: imode: Both R7 and R6 have module systems.
2020-11-21T21:17:08Z periish: plan 9 scheme confirmed?????
2020-11-21T21:17:16Z imode: are they defined within the language or is it an interpreter thing.
2020-11-21T21:17:25Z Zipheir: periish: https://t3x.org/s9fes/
2020-11-21T21:17:36Z periish: Oh, scheme 9 from empty space
2020-11-21T21:17:38Z periish: I've seen that one
2020-11-21T21:17:42Z Zipheir: imode: Depends on the implementation.
2020-11-21T21:17:55Z Zipheir: imode: define-library is a meta-Scheme form in chibi, for instance.
2020-11-21T21:18:01Z imode: that's neat.
2020-11-21T21:18:20Z imode: I always like it when a language can bootstrap itself like that.
2020-11-21T21:18:59Z periish: Hmm...
2020-11-21T21:19:41Z wasamasa: imode: r7rs intentionally avoided standardizing how library paths map to libraries, meaning you cannot run code across implementations unless you make plenty of symlinks or rename files as necessary
2020-11-21T21:19:52Z periish: Is there anything like (->) in scheme?
2020-11-21T21:19:58Z periish: It's a threading macro from clojure
2020-11-21T21:20:32Z wasamasa: scheme is far older than that
2020-11-21T21:20:40Z wasamasa: but people implemented these macros
2020-11-21T21:20:45Z periish: Ah
2020-11-21T21:20:49Z Zipheir: periish: Maybe this is what you want: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-197/
2020-11-21T21:20:57Z periish: I'm just curious ^^
2020-11-21T21:20:58Z wasamasa: and surprisingly enough, they're not nearly as useful as in clojure
2020-11-21T21:21:02Z wasamasa: who'd have thunk it
2020-11-21T21:21:17Z Zipheir: Who'd have called that thunk?
2020-11-21T21:21:20Z wasamasa: srfi-2 is enough for my needs
2020-11-21T21:21:25Z periish: I'm yet to get a JVM running on my machine
2020-11-21T21:21:28Z periish: Have no intent to
2020-11-21T21:21:54Z tatsumaru: When you learn multiple scheme implementations is it hard to remember which feature belongs to which implementation?
2020-11-21T21:21:54Z Zipheir: Clojure, AKA NIH-Scheme...
2020-11-21T21:22:06Z periish: So I won't be playing around with Clojure for a long time
2020-11-21T21:22:23Z Zipheir: Definitely.  I recommend sticking with one Scheme implementation to learn.
2020-11-21T21:22:31Z Zipheir: You can always switch at any time.
2020-11-21T21:22:37Z aeth: wasamasa: Scheme is older than Clojure but there's this "R7RS" thing that's a brand new language, relatively speaking. Technically, it's not even final yet. It's new and therefore it's good. Everyone needs to rewrite their code in R7RS.
2020-11-21T21:22:44Z wasamasa: tatsumaru: that assumes you are so inefficient with looking up things you rather learn them to the extent of mixing things up
2020-11-21T21:22:48Z periish: What's your personal favourite, Zip?
2020-11-21T21:22:58Z wasamasa: tatsumaru: so not really
2020-11-21T21:23:16Z dTal: R6RS ❤️
2020-11-21T21:23:33Z wasamasa: I'm more bothered when switching between elisp and scheme and getting the parentheses around function name/arguments wrong
2020-11-21T21:23:42Z Zipheir: periish: I mainly use CHICKEN or chibi.  I'm a big fan of s9fes, actually, I just wish it used something less-ancient than R4RS.
2020-11-21T21:24:03Z periish: What's special about s9fes?
2020-11-21T21:24:11Z periish: Other than the fact that it runs on plan 9
2020-11-21T21:24:15Z periish: That's an achievement
2020-11-21T21:24:18Z Zipheir: aeth: That's some funny trolling coming from someone implementing R7 currently...
2020-11-21T21:24:28Z Zipheir: periish: Fantastically small and readable codebase.
2020-11-21T21:24:32Z periish: Ah
2020-11-21T21:24:36Z Zipheir: And pretty fast these days.
2020-11-21T21:24:36Z periish: That's always lovely
2020-11-21T21:24:43Z periish: I suppose since it's because it's for a book, it has to be
2020-11-21T21:25:00Z periish: Wanted to get my hands on it
2020-11-21T21:25:05Z periish: But it's quite expensive :/
2020-11-21T21:25:07Z aeth: dTal: (< 6 7) => #t
2020-11-21T21:25:10Z aeth: dTal: (string<? "R6RS" "R7RS") => #t
2020-11-21T21:25:11Z aeth: :-p
2020-11-21T21:25:19Z Zipheir: Hah.
2020-11-21T21:25:31Z aeth: and I did that in Racket, an R6RS-like.
2020-11-21T21:25:38Z periish: It was about $50, afaik?
2020-11-21T21:25:54Z tatsumaru: periish what is $50?
2020-11-21T21:25:55Z Zipheir: (eq? < objectively-better?) => unspecified
2020-11-21T21:26:05Z periish: The scheme 9 from empty space book
2020-11-21T21:26:12Z aeth: Zipheir: it's objective if you can quantify it and I just quantified it ;-)
2020-11-21T21:26:26Z Zipheir: It's a book on implementing Scheme in C, IIUC.
2020-11-21T21:26:35Z Zipheir: But there are plenty of those for free.
2020-11-21T21:27:11Z aeth: Technically, someone probably wrote a language called "Z" as a pun on "C" (there's probably 4, because people are unoriginal) so unless there's a "Zcheme", then it's string>? all Schemes...
2020-11-21T21:27:34Z periish: > But there are plenty of those for free.
2020-11-21T21:27:34Z aeth: Zscheme or Zcheme, which one would you prefer, Zipheir?
2020-11-21T21:27:41Z Zipheir: Ugh.
2020-11-21T21:27:43Z periish: This one is nice because it's in Plan 9 C
2020-11-21T21:27:49Z periish: A very readable variant
2020-11-21T21:28:03Z Zipheir: I'd have to pronounce "Zcheme" as "Z-cheem", so that one.
2020-11-21T21:28:03Z aeth: Zipheir: Ok, I take that to mean that Airship Scheme is a better name.
2020-11-21T21:28:11Z aeth: and yeah
2020-11-21T21:28:25Z wasamasa: eczema
2020-11-21T21:28:37Z Zipheir: Or "zed-cheme", for Commonwealth folks.
2020-11-21T21:28:40Z aeth: what's nice about "Zscheme" is that it has 4 consonants in a row
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2020-11-21T21:28:47Z tatsumaru: still better than "armpit scheme"
2020-11-21T21:28:58Z Zipheir: ARMpit?
2020-11-21T21:29:05Z periish: thumbpit!
2020-11-21T21:29:49Z aeth: heh, Airship Scheme finally alphabetizes earlier
2020-11-21T21:30:01Z aeth: Does anything sort after Ypsilon?
2020-11-21T21:30:10Z aeth: http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-implementations is very incomplete
2020-11-21T21:30:22Z tatsumaru: 5ch3m3 if you want to be #1
2020-11-21T21:30:54Z Zipheir: That's TinyScheme, the number-one Scheme with malware kiddies.
2020-11-21T21:31:14Z aeth: tatsumaru: nah, first I'd go Aership then Aarship. I'd only have to result to numbers if someone finds a way to beat both.
2020-11-21T21:31:15Z Zipheir: (To be clear, that's of course not the author's doing.)
2020-11-21T21:31:48Z aeth: Zipheir: reminds me of how MINIX became the most popular OS
2020-11-21T21:31:49Z Zipheir: aeth: What clever name have you come up with for Airship extensions?
2020-11-21T21:32:28Z tatsumaru: Bombs?
2020-11-21T21:33:09Z aeth: in case anyone doesn't know the Minix story... https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/
2020-11-21T21:33:34Z Zipheir: That's actually pretty fun.  "Loading bomb..."
2020-11-21T21:34:53Z aeth: The problem with that is that governments have no sense of humor and must take all things literally so they'd eventually ask me why I was "exporting bombs" or something like that.
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2020-11-21T21:35:30Z aeth: Although I guess technically an airship is usually a military aircraft
2020-11-21T21:37:09Z tatsumaru: aeth: I just read that story - Is that the infamous Intel Management Engine that turned out to be a massive backdoor into everyone's computer?
2020-11-21T21:37:22Z dTal: I have seen many civilian airships but never a military one
2020-11-21T21:37:38Z dTal: Goodyear and Budweiser for a start
2020-11-21T21:38:08Z aeth: tatsumaru: yes
2020-11-21T21:38:27Z periish: Is there a string-replace that takes a charset to replace rather than a character?
2020-11-21T21:38:29Z aeth: dTal: I live in Maryland so you used to be able to see this on clear days in some parts of the state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JLENS
2020-11-21T21:38:29Z Zipheir: dTal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship#/media/File:German_airship_bombing_Warsaw.JPG
2020-11-21T21:38:35Z tatsumaru: aeth I am not sure if governments will oppose to your bombs any more than they oppose to the bombs in Battlefield 5
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2020-11-21T21:39:16Z periish: In mit-scheme, that is
2020-11-21T21:40:11Z Zipheir: periish: Not per se, I think, but it should be doable with string-map.
2020-11-21T21:40:16Z dTal: Zipheir: ...I don't think occasional use in WW1 qualifies as "usually"
2020-11-21T21:40:33Z Zipheir: dTal: No, but they existed.
2020-11-21T21:40:59Z Zipheir: If you think about it, a massive blimp is actually somewhat more terrifying than, say, a B-1.
2020-11-21T21:41:06Z aeth: dTal: the peak days of airships were in the interwar period so... they were poorly timed to be used in a major war
2020-11-21T21:41:20Z aeth: dTal: e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Airship_Scheme
2020-11-21T21:41:25Z dTal: Zipheir: only if you're not into model rocketry
2020-11-21T21:41:46Z tatsumaru: aeth you could go with Zeppelin Scheme
2020-11-21T21:41:50Z aeth: most military airship projects ended with failure, even the unmanned one I linked to earlier.
2020-11-21T21:42:17Z dTal: "Imperial Airship Scheme" well there it is
2020-11-21T21:42:28Z Zipheir: That's the inspiration.
2020-11-21T21:42:36Z tatsumaru: or Hindenburg Scheme if you want to go out with a bang
2020-11-21T21:42:37Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, aeth dropped "imperial".
2020-11-21T21:42:40Z aeth: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13854921
2020-11-21T21:42:49Z aeth: Zipheir: I'm an American, monarchy would be treason
2020-11-21T21:43:23Z aeth: Zipheir: it'll be imperial again when I'm galactic emperor, though.
2020-11-21T21:43:28Z Zipheir: "That may lead people to believe that I support bringing back the German Empire.  Which is wrong.  It's the Byzantine empire I want to bring back." --aeth (paraphrasing from vague mental IRC logs)
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2020-11-21T21:44:08Z Zipheir: No, "British Empire", of course.
2020-11-21T21:44:13Z tatsumaru: aeth, have you considered starting your own country?
2020-11-21T21:45:34Z aeth: tatsumaru: Enough to the point where I've read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius
2020-11-21T21:46:03Z aeth: In practice, the only real, serious terra nullius (other than just creating "land" in the high seas) is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Byrd_Land
2020-11-21T21:46:30Z aeth: Since the others are more like "we cannot claim this land because of a border dispute, but in practice, if resolved, either us or our neighbors will get it"
2020-11-21T21:46:48Z tatsumaru: what about autonomous zones?
2020-11-21T21:46:58Z aeth: And technically, the US reserves the right to claim Marie Byrd Land by the Antarctic Treaty.
2020-11-21T21:47:18Z aeth: tatsumaru: I mean, we saw what happened with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone
2020-11-21T21:47:23Z periish: Doesn't seem like mit-scheme has string-map
2020-11-21T21:47:45Z wasamasa: one skill you'll learn with scheme is DIY
2020-11-21T21:47:48Z periish: I don't think CHAZ(or CHOP in the end) ever was meant to be a country
2020-11-21T21:47:53Z periish: wasamasa: I know!
2020-11-21T21:47:58Z tatsumaru: aeth there are many successful autonomous zones - azores in Portugal, Sardinia in Italy etc.
2020-11-21T21:47:59Z periish: It's fun
2020-11-21T21:47:59Z wasamasa: no leftpad.js
2020-11-21T21:48:10Z aeth: Zipheir: I mean, every western empire claims to be the true successor to the Roman Empire... and the Ottomans sort of did, too.
2020-11-21T21:48:17Z periish: I've never written a line of Javascript
2020-11-21T21:48:19Z aeth: Zipheir: So of course if I was galactic emperor, I'd also be "emperor of the Romans"
2020-11-21T21:48:27Z periish: Concious decision
2020-11-21T21:48:33Z wasamasa: granted, it's harder to implement an actually efficient leftpad in JS than in scheme
2020-11-21T21:48:37Z wasamasa: because JS sucks so hard
2020-11-21T21:48:46Z periish: I just don't actually know what string-map is or does
2020-11-21T21:48:56Z periish: I assume it's like map but for a string
2020-11-21T21:48:59Z wasamasa: sounds like a R7RS addition
2020-11-21T21:49:50Z jcowan: periish: Scheme 9 is not Plan 9, but Chibi does run on Plan 9.
2020-11-21T21:49:56Z aeth: periish: I wrote JavaScript > 7 years ago so it is entirely obsolete knowledge and it's like having never written a line of JavaScript
2020-11-21T21:50:05Z tatsumaru: Chibi sounds like something cute in Japanese
2020-11-21T21:50:19Z jcowan: Exactly:  "the little one"
2020-11-21T21:50:25Z wasamasa: it's the kind of name you may only use if you're japanese
2020-11-21T21:50:28Z periish: (define string-map lambda (function string) (map function (string->list string))))
2020-11-21T21:50:31Z jcowan: Oh, my bad, the new Scheme 9 *does* run on Plan 9!
2020-11-21T21:50:31Z periish: Maybe?
2020-11-21T21:50:44Z wasamasa: well, it also supports mapping over several strings
2020-11-21T21:50:45Z aeth: I think it's also the name of an art style. The kind of art style that is in mobile games aimed at women.
2020-11-21T21:51:05Z aeth: Basically the Disney art style via Japan and then rewesternized.
2020-11-21T21:51:08Z periish: jcowan: of course scheme 9 != plan 9, one of them's a language /s
2020-11-21T21:51:21Z tatsumaru: Does the scheme spec have a BDFL?
2020-11-21T21:51:29Z jcowan: I mean Scheme 9 has a Plan 9 port.
2020-11-21T21:51:35Z periish: :p i know
2020-11-21T21:51:35Z jcowan: tatsumaru: No, it has a CCBW
2020-11-21T21:51:41Z jcowan: (that's me)
2020-11-21T21:51:46Z periish: I wonder, does anyone use LISP 2 derivatives?
2020-11-21T21:52:00Z periish: the m-expressions one
2020-11-21T21:52:07Z jcowan: not that I know of, no
2020-11-21T21:52:23Z jcowan: the idea keeps being reinvented (cf. Dylan) and rejected by Lispers
2020-11-21T21:52:59Z jcowan: Note that Lisp 2 is one thing, 2Lisp is another, and a Lisp-2 is a third thing, which doesn't nelp
2020-11-21T21:54:19Z periish: Ah.
2020-11-21T21:54:21Z periish: Lovely!
2020-11-21T21:54:30Z aeth: and Lisp-2, the concept of multiple namespaces, is misleading, since there are usually 3 main namespaces (names of types/classes being the third) with an unspecified (or at least unbounded) number of minor namespaces
2020-11-21T21:55:04Z aeth: Technically, the combination of macros and hash tables means that anyone can create their own namespaces, too.
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2020-11-21T21:59:06Z tatsumaru: Has anyone tried Janet?
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2020-11-21T22:00:13Z Zipheir: That's the first I've heard of it.
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2020-11-21T22:00:23Z Zipheir: "Damnit, Janet!"
2020-11-21T22:00:39Z periish: The mit-scheme documentation is unclear, do I use (equal?) to check if a character resides in a character set?
2020-11-21T22:01:01Z periish: Oh
2020-11-21T22:01:02Z Zipheir: Is it using SRFI 14 character sets?
2020-11-21T22:01:05Z periish: There  we go
2020-11-21T22:01:13Z periish: I missed a piece of the documentation
2020-11-21T22:01:24Z periish: I'm tired, apologies for the bother ^^'
2020-11-21T22:02:58Z aeth: Zipheir: I think it's kind of weird to name programming languages after first names because, at least for me, I can only think about real people who have that name when I hear those programming language names. At least the first name "Ada" probably fell out of common use in the 1800s.
2020-11-21T22:03:30Z Zipheir: Haskell...
2020-11-21T22:03:39Z aeth: was never common
2020-11-21T22:04:22Z Zipheir: It is a weirdly anthropomorphic naming approach.
2020-11-21T22:05:01Z aeth: It's mainly problematic when the name's common enough that there's a person (or a song) you think of instead of the language.
2020-11-21T22:05:45Z periish: my favourite programming language is Led Zepplin - Stairway To Heaven
2020-11-21T22:06:04Z aeth: The Beatle's song Julia is probably at least 1000x more popular than the programming language Julia.
2020-11-21T22:06:16Z aeth: and it's not even one of their major songs
2020-11-21T22:07:13Z aeth: when you're naming your programming language, you don't want a page like this on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_(disambiguation)
2020-11-21T22:07:32Z jcowan: When I name something I run a Google search to make sure there are 100 ghits or less.  But I don't do misspellings, either, for reasons given in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1178
2020-11-21T22:07:35Z jcowan: see also https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2100
2020-11-21T22:13:47Z aeth: I tend to try to use a visually memorable (and fun!) combination of two common words that is, at least apparently, unique.
2020-11-21T22:16:18Z aeth: one word names are for people who have trademark lawyers and enough of a budget to buy a probably-overpriced domain
2020-11-21T22:17:15Z jcowan: Reasonable, althogh Airship Scheme is hard to google unless you add "-Imperial", and Airship even more so.  Still, I understand its importance.
2020-11-21T22:17:57Z jcowan: The root of the trouble is that the six-letterism for "Schemer" was SCHEME rather than SCHEMR, unlike PLANR for Planner and CONIVR for Conniver, two earlier languages.
2020-11-21T22:17:59Z aeth: It's hard to google because there's no reasonable result yet and Google has to show *some* result.
2020-11-21T22:18:42Z jcowan: The second problem was that Scheme was developed by Americans for whom "scheme" means "plot", as opposed to Ukavians for whom it means "plan".
2020-11-21T22:18:50Z aeth: The random HN thread from years ago is on the front page, which shows that there really isn't much depth there so it should be easy to rank on Google once there are actually websites to rank.
2020-11-21T22:19:22Z periish: Scheme means plot and plan in the UK, depending on context(what magic!)
2020-11-21T22:19:23Z aeth: (Google's "new" algorithm favors recency, so an old thread means almost no results.)
2020-11-21T22:20:08Z aeth: hmm, it looks like the HN thread's only there for `"airship scheme"`, not `airship scheme`
2020-11-21T22:21:08Z aeth: periish: no, it means Scheme the programming language, which would have made Imperial Airship Scheme the first Scheme implementation if it had been successful.
2020-11-21T22:21:41Z jcowan: no, periish is right.  But my investigation showed that it most often means a government plan.
2020-11-21T22:23:00Z aeth: jcowan: If that's the case, then "Five-Year Plans" probably could have been translated into UK English as "Five-Year Schemes". New Scheme implementation name?
2020-11-21T22:23:59Z aeth: Amusingly, that's probably about how long Airship Scheme is going to take. "Scheme48" was written more quickly.
2020-11-21T22:24:34Z jcowan: But by no means 48 hours, even so.
2020-11-21T22:25:35Z Riastradh: First running draft might have been 48h.
2020-11-21T22:25:38Z aeth: oh no... that means Five-Year Scheme is probably being written as we speak, and it will probably take at least a decade
2020-11-21T22:26:41Z jcowan: The User Guide says "The name derives from our desire to have an implementation that is simple and lucid enough that it looks as if it were written in just 48 hours. We don't claim to have reached that stage yet; much more simplification is necessary."
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2020-11-21T22:37:58Z aeth: Unrelated, but I'm going to be reserving everything after [+-](inf)|(nan)\. for syntax extensions
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2020-11-21T22:38:32Z aeth: I'm not 100% sure settled on if e.g. +inf. itself should be an allowed unquoted symbol
2020-11-21T22:40:26Z aeth: chibi-scheme seems to error on some, but not all, non-numeric things that start in [+-](inf)|(nan)\. and Racket tends to treat them all as identifiers (but they're dangerous to use because Racket has extensions like +inf.f so you never know if they'll add new ones)
2020-11-21T22:40:51Z aeth: MIT Scheme and afaik only MIT Scheme has extended syntax that permits things like +nan.123 iirc
2020-11-21T22:42:56Z aeth: It's actually somewhat related to the "more simplification is necessary" statement because it simplifies my Scheme reader to error on these rather than to treat infnan candidates as potential identifiers this late (however +inf+ or whatever should be a valid identifier to permit CL-style constant names)
2020-11-21T22:43:00Z jcowan: On the standards side, R[56] says "if it begins with a numeric *character*, it's not an identifier", whereas R7 says "if it begins with a *number* it's not an identifier".  In practice many systems say "If it's not a number it's an identifier."  Since R6RS is the most restrictive, it's best to adopt it.
2020-11-21T22:43:27Z Riastradh: i am not a number, i am free character!
2020-11-21T22:43:49Z aeth: jcowan: yes, but + and - and . are special cases where you probably want to permit some things that start with them (and are required to permit +, -, and ...)
2020-11-21T22:43:51Z jcowan: however, "->foo" is a valid identifier almost everywhere
2020-11-21T22:44:48Z jcowan: It depends on if you are writing portable code or an implementation.  In Airship I'd use the CL rules extended by + or -inf.0 and + or -nan.0 and Scheme complex numbers, all of which are CL "potential numbers".
2020-11-21T22:44:49Z aeth: The line I personally drew for now is [+-](inf)|(nan)\. because that's sort of... the point of no return because after that, they really start branching, at least potentially speaking (portably, only 0{delimiter} will follow)
2020-11-21T22:46:09Z aeth: And so I'd have to write dozens (or more) lines of code to handle identifiers you really shouldn't be using in the first place.
2020-11-21T22:46:11Z jcowan: IMHO though "->foo" is mostly pointless: 'foo' usually does the job of "convert whatever to a foo"
2020-11-21T22:47:37Z aeth: In particular, [+-](inf)|(nan)\. is a good line to draw because once you start adding the complex representations, i.e. @ or + or -, then you can't really know if it's a number or identifier until the very end
2020-11-21T22:48:10Z aeth: e.g. +inf.0+nan.0i is a complex number, but if you drop/replace the final i or add something after the final i or whatever, then it's an identifier in Racket
2020-11-21T22:48:30Z aeth: So the straightforward thing to do would be to start building both in parallel and drop the one that it's not, which is a waste for an identifier name you really shouldn't be using
2020-11-21T22:49:47Z aeth: (You could also just have it be a symbol representing a constant identifier that's defined to be the complex number, or a bunch of other things, but again, a waste for something you shouldn't be using)
2020-11-21T22:52:39Z aeth: I guess you could also use the Scheme writer to write the first part as the start of the symbol if the second part fails, but then you can't read multiple things that all write as +nan.0
2020-11-21T22:53:02Z periish: Just wrote my first recursive parser and it doesn't work :v
2020-11-21T22:53:06Z periish: it just gets stuck
2020-11-21T22:53:13Z periish: No clue where to start debygging
2020-11-21T22:54:02Z Zipheir: Add some print statements and see what's happening.
2020-11-21T22:54:45Z periish: Can't exactly insert one with ease like in other languages, haha
2020-11-21T22:54:51Z periish: It's all very.. nested
2020-11-21T22:55:03Z aeth: Scheme? Use begin
2020-11-21T22:55:09Z periish: Mhm, mit
2020-11-21T22:55:17Z Zipheir: You can always insert a (begin (display ...))
2020-11-21T22:55:23Z aeth: (begin 1 2) => 2
2020-11-21T22:55:30Z aeth: so begin is only really useful for side effects, like display
2020-11-21T22:56:02Z aeth: Quite a few things have implicit begins (if that's even a term, CL calls it "implicit progn"), though
2020-11-21T22:56:53Z Zipheir: Implicit progn...osticate.
2020-11-21T23:06:24Z periish: I'm getting somewhere!
2020-11-21T23:09:45Z periish: Kinda
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2020-11-21T23:37:56Z tatsumaru: is Gauche Japanese?
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2020-11-22T00:44:57Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: The primary author, Shiro, is I believe in Japan. http://practical-scheme.net/gauche/index-j.html
2020-11-22T00:45:02Z Zipheir: Oh, they left.
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2020-11-22T00:57:25Z laertus: how much of R6RS made it in to R7RS?
2020-11-22T00:59:09Z Blukunfando: There’s a LaTeX package to make coffee stains.  It looks like a similar one could be used to add ready-made jelly stains to a diet version of a certain book I totally haven’t read from where I shouldn’t.
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2020-11-22T01:17:45Z Zipheir: Little Schemer Lite?
2020-11-22T01:18:08Z Zipheir: That's the Reasoned Schemer, which is all vegetarian food.
2020-11-22T01:19:56Z aeth: laertus: Explicitly R6RS into explicitly part of R7RS-large without being put into a SRFI first? Afaik, just http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-3.html#node_chap_2
2020-11-22T01:20:00Z aeth: the voting isn't done yet, though
2020-11-22T01:20:21Z laertus: hmm
2020-11-22T01:20:26Z aeth: as to what parts of R6RS became R7RS-large SRFIs or part of R7RS-small, that's not clearly stated without doing a lot of research
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2020-11-22T01:20:42Z Zipheir: I think laertus was asking about R7RS-small.
2020-11-22T01:20:56Z aeth: Zipheir: yeah, but that's the only part of R6RS that's clearly in any part of R7RS
2020-11-22T01:21:09Z aeth: that doesn't mean that other parts didn't make it, that just means that it'll be work to find out what did
2020-11-22T01:21:39Z laertus: well, i've been interested in porting to chicken scheme a bunch of srfi's whose reference implementations rely on R6RS, but chicken doesn't support R6RS.. but it does support R7RS small
2020-11-22T01:22:28Z Zipheir: Most of the core of R6 is in R7, nominally.  The semantics are different.
2020-11-22T01:22:34Z Zipheir: VERY different.
2020-11-22T01:23:00Z aeth: yes, there could be subtle modifications
2020-11-22T01:23:14Z aeth: once R7RS-large is done, there probably will be an R6RS-in-R7RS to deal with differences
2020-11-22T01:23:37Z Zipheir: But it's the kind of thing where append is basically append, even though the languages have radically different perspective on error conditions, etc.
2020-11-22T01:23:50Z Zipheir: perspectives, even
2020-11-22T01:24:28Z laertus: hmm.. well, it sounds like i should abandon the idea of porting these r6rs srfi's to chicken for the time being
2020-11-22T01:24:55Z aeth: I think in general, the route taken is that R7RS-small is less specified than R6RS (i.e. things mandatory in R6RS became optional in R7RS-small) because (1) minimalist implementations didn't want to add it, (2) some platforms (e.g. JS) might not be able to add it, (3) it can always be added back in R7RS-large voting, and (4) sometimes nobody implemented it to the R6RS standard.
2020-11-22T01:25:01Z aeth: maybe a few more reasons
2020-11-22T01:26:10Z aeth: The R7RS formal grammar is fairly strict, but most actual R7RSes ignore those strict parts, e.g. "#u8 (" should be invalid, but most if not all permit that.
2020-11-22T01:27:07Z aeth: And sometimes you just kind of have to make stuff up, like R7RS permits CL-style literal notation for other float types than double-float (MIT Scheme uses these, maybe a few others), but doesn't specify how to mix those with +inf.0, etc.
2020-11-22T01:27:33Z Zipheir: laertus: If you just want to port things that you can plug-and-chug, maybe not.  But SRFI sample implementations are meant to be portable without massive changes, so it may be worth the work.
2020-11-22T01:29:03Z Zipheir: But of course, plug-and-chug ports kind of suck.  Ideally, facilities within the Scheme implementation will be used to improve the sample implementation's fit with the Scheme.
2020-11-22T01:29:34Z laertus: unfortunately, i don't have much time to delve in to the nuances of r6rs vs r5rs and r7rs to figure out what needs to be changed in these srfi's in order to port them
2020-11-22T01:30:01Z laertus: yes, quick and dirty ports are not ideal, but they're better than nothing
2020-11-22T01:30:24Z laertus: and hopefully over time they'll be improved by people who care about getting better performance, for example
2020-11-22T01:31:45Z laertus: right now i'm just focusing on what can be ported relatively easy, without too many changes needed on my part
2020-11-22T01:37:00Z aeth: r7rs-small was, more or less, basically intended to be r5rs with unicode and a library system
2020-11-22T01:37:07Z aeth: determining r6rs vs r7rs is the hard part
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2020-11-22T01:43:18Z Zipheir: Will Clinger has a good paper on that, at least in the context of providing R6 within R7 http://andykeep.com/SchemeWorkshop2015/papers/sfpw1-2015-clinger.pdf
2020-11-22T01:45:46Z aeth: I can't speak for everyone, but R7RS basically gives you R5RS for free, and at that point, it's just a matter of working backwards with various compatibility modes (R6RS, maybe even R4RS, etc.)
2020-11-22T01:47:03Z Zipheir: Yes.  R5RS + some prominent SRFIs + exceptions + Unicode.
2020-11-22T01:47:11Z aeth: mostly
2020-11-22T01:48:23Z aeth: "The (scheme r5rs) library provides the identifiers defined by R5RS, except that transcript-on and transcript-off are not present." - r7rs.pdf Appendix A, page 75
2020-11-22T01:49:02Z Zipheir: Hah, transcript-on.
2020-11-22T01:49:13Z aeth: So you need to add transcript-on and transcript-off and then R7RS-small gives you *a* R5RS, although it might not have exactly the same semantics as an R5RS written at the time, and some key SRFIs are now built-in, with potentially slightly different semantics
2020-11-22T01:49:40Z aeth: Or at least, that's my impression from the standards PDF. Idk if in practice it's that simple.
2020-11-22T01:49:58Z Zipheir: It's flexible, though.  Unlike my-way-or-the-highway-RS.
2020-11-22T01:50:25Z aeth: R6RS, on the other hand, at the very minimum requires a separate, parallel library standard (with a different naming scheme for SRFIs); and some different, possibly stricter syntax
2020-11-22T01:50:58Z aeth: So even if it's otherwise compatible, it's some implementation-level work to make it 100% compatible at the point where you can just run R6RS libraries
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2020-11-22T01:51:46Z aeth: R4RS shouldn't be too hard to add as a similar-to-R5RS compatibility thing. The older ones are odd, especially the original Scheme, before everything got renamed from the historic Lisp naming scheme
2020-11-22T01:52:33Z aeth: I think R4RS (or was it R3RS?) optionally allowed you to do some classic-Lisp style things, like #f being the same as the empty list and the case being insensitive (actually, R7RS gives me the impression that R5RS doesn't require case sensitivity)
2020-11-22T01:53:06Z aeth: So the further you go back in time, the more you make optional decisions in the favor of the direction that Scheme actually went, at the cost of perhaps not being able to run historic programs that assumed the opposite.
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2020-11-22T01:56:37Z aeth: You also get to decide how strict you want to be, i.e. R6RS requires reader modifications, but do you really want to modify the reader for R5RS or R4RS to take away new features when those additions probably won't hurt the ability to run old libraries? e.g. "foo\n" was introduced at some point, but it probably wouldn't hurt to always have it
2020-11-22T01:57:31Z laertus: i've noticed a bunch of srfi's (that i wound up not porting to chicken) required reader modifications
2020-11-22T01:57:43Z aeth: many of them made it into R7RS
2020-11-22T01:58:07Z laertus: so is chicken going to have to modify its reader to fully support r7rs?
2020-11-22T01:58:33Z aeth: Possibly.
2020-11-22T01:59:25Z aeth: Oh, and practically speaking, you probably don't really care about anything before r4rs except for historic code archeology purposes. So, fortunately, any sort of compatibility issues are limited to 4, 5, 6, and 7, with 6 as the outlier (until 7-large is done)
2020-11-22T02:00:45Z laertus: i'm not even sure how many people are going to be porting r4rs stuff over at this point
2020-11-22T02:05:35Z aeth: oh, cool, the gigantic font and the lack of HTTPS in snow-fort have been fixed. https://snow-fort.org/
2020-11-22T02:06:49Z aeth: Anyway, there are some stuff that at least apparently started as r4rs that got ported in https://snow-fort.org/pkg
2020-11-22T02:07:16Z laertus: nice
2020-11-22T02:07:25Z aeth: in particular, slib, since it's from the early 90s and r5rs is from 1998
2020-11-22T02:07:50Z aeth: 1993 according to https://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/slib/index.html#SEC_Contents
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2020-11-22T02:12:24Z aeth: in fact, given the relatively late arrival of r5rs, I'm guessing that quite a lot of things started out as r4rs
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2020-11-22T06:44:21Z aeth: It reads!
2020-11-22T06:44:39Z aeth: I can finally read Chibi's r7rs-tests.scm
2020-11-22T06:45:06Z aeth: It required almost the entirety of a valid R7RS-small reader, but not quite.
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2020-11-22T07:53:18Z remby: why use a let epression here? https://bpa.st/QEUQ
2020-11-22T07:58:49Z remby: I'll suppose it was just for examples sake
2020-11-22T08:01:11Z mdhughes: All the arguing about Scheme spec versions just seems ridiculous to me. All I care is which impls are actually usable for real work.
2020-11-22T08:01:21Z oni-on-ion: yea i think so remby
2020-11-22T08:01:52Z mdhughes: And currently that's: Chez, CHICKEN, maybe Guile, Gauche, Gambit/Gerbil. Everything else is slow as shit.
2020-11-22T08:02:49Z mdhughes: Racket's slow and weird, and the GUI REPL is broken, but they have a lot of educational support, so some people find it useful.
2020-11-22T08:03:08Z aeth: heh
2020-11-22T08:03:30Z oni-on-ion: what about racket with chez
2020-11-22T08:03:57Z mdhughes: It is getting less slow, and more stable, but it's still way behind actual Chez.
2020-11-22T08:04:02Z oni-on-ion: ah
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2020-11-22T09:02:16Z amirouche: +1
2020-11-22T09:02:23Z amirouche: and hello all :)
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2020-11-22T10:03:54Z wasamasa: laertus: there are plenty of eggs with r7rs shims, meaning a small file implementing the handful of r7rs-exclusive things they rely on (as opposed to you using the r7rs egg and hoping things compile)
2020-11-22T10:04:19Z wasamasa: laertus: this works best if the code comes split into library definition and body
2020-11-22T10:04:35Z wasamasa: laertus: and given that, you can try the same with r6rs, though it tends to be even more annoying to shim
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2020-11-22T14:12:38Z laertus: wasamasa: yeah, i think if i were to try to port those r6rs-relying srfi's, then shimming what they need out of r6rs would be a good approach
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2020-11-22T14:13:27Z wasamasa: rudybot: shimmy shimmy ya
2020-11-22T14:13:27Z rudybot: wasamasa: Check all your razors and your guns / Do the shim-sham shimmy till the risin' sun
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2020-11-22T17:18:10Z jcowan: Shimmy, shimmy, Chicken, pop!
2020-11-22T17:20:23Z jcowan: Racket CS (on Chez Scheme) is not intended to be faster that Racket BC (before Chez).  It uses Chez to replace most of the C code in Racket BS in the interests of maintainability for the rest of Racket.
2020-11-22T17:21:21Z jcowan: mdhughes: Don't forget Stalin.  Nobody could call Stalin "slow as shit".
2020-11-22T17:21:46Z Riastradh: jcowan: Someone who tries to run the compiler might call it that.
2020-11-22T17:22:37Z jcowan: If the code is big enough.  I actually wrote a Stalin REPL in Chicken for my purposes, though I ended up not using Stalin as one of my test Schemes during the R7RS-small work
2020-11-22T17:24:28Z jcowan: read a form, if it's a definition, stash it in a hashtable under the defined name.  If it's not a define, write out all defines and the current expression wrapped in `write` to a file, have Stalin compile it, then run it.  Repeat until EOF.
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2020-11-22T17:44:38Z periish: Hello! Is there a way to append to a list, such as '(a b c) such that it is (a b c d) rather than (a b c . d)?
2020-11-22T17:45:28Z wasamasa: rudybot: (append '(a b c) '(d))
2020-11-22T17:45:33Z rudybot: wasamasa: your sandbox is ready
2020-11-22T17:45:33Z rudybot: wasamasa: ; Value: '(a b c d)
2020-11-22T17:45:44Z periish: Oh, thanks
2020-11-22T17:46:01Z periish: Use a list rather than value, got it
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2020-11-22T17:49:07Z mdhughes: jcowan: Technically true, but Stalin's old and annoying to work with, no libraries, so it's hard to be productive.
2020-11-22T17:50:00Z mdhughes: I'd rather have a slow(ish) Scheme that's easy to hook up to stuff than a fast Scheme that's not.
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2020-11-22T18:20:14Z amirouche: great username.
2020-11-22T18:20:26Z oni-on-ion: ^_^
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2020-11-22T18:21:03Z amirouche: does 'periish' mean something else than the similar french word than "to fail"
2020-11-22T18:22:00Z oni-on-ion: perir?
2020-11-22T18:22:26Z oni-on-ion: https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/perish  ?
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2020-11-22T18:36:46Z amirouche: that is it.
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2020-11-22T18:54:40Z oni-on-ion: chicken has some nice features.
2020-11-22T18:55:15Z oni-on-ion: particularily, to syntax: http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Extensions%20to%20the%20standard
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2020-11-22T19:06:10Z Zipheir: I don't think I've ever used any of those.
2020-11-22T19:06:50Z Zipheir: Outside of the obvious ones.  Many are actually in R7,now.
2020-11-22T19:08:56Z oni-on-ion: oh really? my two personally-important ones: alternate []/{} use, and :prefix colon for keywords. ultra-important
2020-11-22T19:09:13Z oni-on-ion: sorry i mean postfix: !
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2020-11-22T19:10:04Z oni-on-ion: the main reason i can't get into CL because nonstop :prefix keywords all over the place. i came not only from English second language, but also Objective-C and Smalltalk.
2020-11-22T19:11:51Z Zipheir: Oof, [] was already weird enough.  {} as well?
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2020-11-22T19:12:28Z oni-on-ion: it is mostly aesthetic, i use visual-processing a lot more than word-processing when coding
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2020-11-22T19:13:14Z oni-on-ion: it is an unintrusive way to "organize" code visually beyond the sexp trees themselves
2020-11-22T19:13:23Z Zipheir: In any case, most of those extensions seem cosmetic to me, not live-or-die features.  But it's of course a matter of opinion.
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2020-11-22T19:14:46Z oni-on-ion: yeah. what i mean to say is that i process code visually rather than literally/lexically. so it is important to me. =)
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2020-11-22T19:22:04Z Zipheir: Well... I hope there is some lexical processing going on *somewhere* in there.
2020-11-22T19:23:31Z Zipheir: The "visual" organization of a program does tend to provide a good immediate impression of the amount of thought that went into it.
2020-11-22T19:24:09Z oni-on-ion: yea.. i've relied on it heavily growing up, with C and all its syntaxery. it is still built in to my coding mind
2020-11-22T19:26:27Z Zipheir: Unless your first language was a syntax-heavy programming language, though, most people are going to be accustomed to natural languages, which mostly lack "syntaxery".
2020-11-22T19:27:51Z oni-on-ion: truth. lisp/scheme is closer to prose
2020-11-22T19:29:39Z Zipheir: But then some people might prefer the terseness of, say, mathematical notation, which is "syntax"-heavy.
2020-11-22T19:30:00Z Zipheir: There are many ways.  The point, as Stendahl said, is "to be clear at all costs".
2020-11-22T19:31:51Z oni-on-ion: i had a great time with haskell/ocaml
2020-11-22T19:33:02Z imode: my brain has a hard time fully parsing VSO langs, somehow doesn't have an issue parsing SOV langs.
2020-11-22T19:34:01Z oni-on-ion: example ?
2020-11-22T19:34:12Z amirouche: SOV?
2020-11-22T19:34:15Z amirouche: never seen that
2020-11-22T19:34:18Z imode: subject, object, verb.
2020-11-22T19:34:18Z oni-on-ion: subject-object-verb
2020-11-22T19:34:29Z amirouche: yes but what proglang is sov
2020-11-22T19:34:36Z oni-on-ion: i've learned japanese and hebrew so order of any ias for me good
2020-11-22T19:34:42Z imode: concatenative languages. forth, postscript, etc.
2020-11-22T19:34:49Z amirouche: ah yes
2020-11-22T19:34:50Z oni-on-ion: ahhh.
2020-11-22T19:35:04Z amirouche: rpn like stuff
2020-11-22T19:35:29Z imode: yeah. probably my favorite ordering. mainly because it's universally unambiguous.
2020-11-22T19:35:43Z imode: no parens required, and you don't need to know the arity.
2020-11-22T19:35:53Z amirouche: german does this is some cases.
2020-11-22T19:36:04Z amirouche: (IIRC)
2020-11-22T19:36:16Z imode: I think a lot of langs with free word ordering can do something like it.
2020-11-22T19:36:28Z imode: japanese was a recent example of an SOV language that I really want to learn now. korean is another.
2020-11-22T19:36:36Z Zipheir: If you don't know the arity of the procedures you're calling, you've got problems.
2020-11-22T19:36:48Z amirouche: not in javascript
2020-11-22T19:36:50Z amirouche shrugs
2020-11-22T19:36:54Z imode: don't know != not needing to know.
2020-11-22T19:37:02Z imode: in terms of parsing, validating, etc.
2020-11-22T19:37:14Z amirouche: in natural languages or prog langs?
2020-11-22T19:37:32Z imode: prog langs, but natural language as well AFAIUI.
2020-11-22T19:37:43Z Zipheir: There are languages which are sloppy with arity, unfortunately.
2020-11-22T19:38:04Z imode: have you taken a look at a concatenative lang?
2020-11-22T19:38:39Z Zipheir: Indeed.  I think Joy is really cool.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_(programming_language)
2020-11-22T19:38:59Z imode: definitely. it's a little rigid in a lot of places, but it's really neat.
2020-11-22T19:39:03Z imode: I like the toy lisp evaluator.
2020-11-22T19:39:27Z imode: imo where these shine is DSL definition. when you have no syntax constraints, everything can look like everything else.
2020-11-22T19:39:40Z Zipheir: It's hard to find concatenative languages with expressive type systems, unfortunately.  Forth is more-or-less untyped.
2020-11-22T19:39:58Z imode: agreed. everything else is semi-dynamic.
2020-11-22T19:40:06Z imode: factor kinda gets there.
2020-11-22T19:41:39Z oni-on-ion: prolog is interesting, it goes both ways (input and output can be/are swapped
2020-11-22T19:41:40Z oni-on-ion: )
2020-11-22T19:42:04Z Zipheir: Relational programming is fantastic, if sometimes infuriating.
2020-11-22T19:42:46Z Zipheir: Again, unfortunately, Prolog and its descendents have little help in the way of types.
2020-11-22T19:43:02Z Zipheir: Gödel was, I guess, the path not taken.
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2020-11-22T21:22:42Z aeth: There are... quite a few ways to write numbers, especially once you support CL-style short, single, double, and long floats. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/408d27108fb9919810cc07aeca3c9a04c8491d74/examples/syntax.scm#L83
2020-11-22T21:22:43Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/01ez1XAQ9i
2020-11-22T21:23:21Z aeth: This isn't even all of the combinations, just enough to exercise what I think is every path
2020-11-22T21:23:42Z aeth: And I definitely prefer CL-ish +inf.0f0 rather than Racket's weird +inf.f
2020-11-22T21:24:44Z aeth: And I guess it kind of makes sense that half of the Scheme reader is handling the numeric syntax, considering that more than half of the non-comments of the syntax demonstration example file will probably be numbers.
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2020-11-22T21:46:50Z oni-on-ion: there was one time i was using floating point hex
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2020-11-22T21:52:39Z wasamasa: yeah, it's most useful for hacking computers
2020-11-22T21:53:31Z aeth: it's useful because it's a unique representation
2020-11-22T21:53:35Z aeth: multiple things might round to 4.0
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2020-11-22T21:53:53Z aeth: (when displayed, I mean)
2020-11-22T21:54:23Z aeth: Now my list of numbers is more useful because I described it. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/5b95888a7eee8690e8a3949c0ad4589f648ea85f/examples/syntax.scm#L83
2020-11-22T21:54:24Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/pN33KNQlJI
2020-11-22T21:55:25Z aeth: I left out a few things. Off the top of my head, I left out that 4i is a valid imaginary number in Airship Scheme while, technically speaking, in portable Scheme, you would have to write +4i instead. I don't see the point of making 4i an error when I can just make it an imaginary number instead.
2020-11-22T21:56:11Z aeth: It's literally more work to make the syntax less useful if "4i" isn't valid because you're already treating it like a number when you start it with 4
2020-11-22T21:56:32Z aeth: (in Scheme, at least... in CL, things that start with numbers can be read as symbols)
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2020-11-22T22:00:40Z oni-on-ion: yeh
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2020-11-22T22:52:45Z amirouche: what is the purpose of unsyntax?
2020-11-22T22:53:01Z amirouche: ref: https://github.com/mnieper/unsyntax/
2020-11-22T22:54:29Z aeth: with a name like that, I thought it was going to be yet another extended Markdown markup language
2020-11-22T22:54:38Z aeth: it's not
2020-11-22T22:56:23Z aeth: amirouche: it looks like it's a Scheme interpreter written in Scheme?
2020-11-22T22:56:51Z amirouche: no it looks like an expander, but the READMe does not say so
2020-11-22T22:57:20Z aeth: "Unsyntax is an expander for R7RS programs. This package contains an interpreter, a compiler, and a REPL.  It currently uses Chibi-Scheme as a backend."
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2020-11-22T22:57:49Z aeth: I even downloaded and skimmed through the PDF (which is download-only, since it's hosted somewhere on Gitlab). https://www.unsyntax.org/documentation/
2020-11-22T22:58:09Z aeth: amirouche: That's just the Github mirror, this is the authoritative repo. https://gitlab.com/nieper/unsyntax
2020-11-22T22:58:15Z aeth: That's one reason why I don't mirror my stuff on Github
2020-11-22T22:58:38Z amirouche: why do you not mirror stuff on github?
2020-11-22T22:58:55Z aeth: so people don't go to the Github mirror expecting to get the full context of the project
2020-11-22T22:59:06Z aeth: Github mirrors will outrank the Gitlab original on search engines
2020-11-22T22:59:28Z amirouche: the first line says what it is: "Unsyntax is an expander for R7RS programs."
2020-11-22T22:59:34Z amirouche: along the description on gitlab
2020-11-22T22:59:55Z aeth: yeah, but it also says it's an interpreter/compiler/REPL and the documentation PDF calls it an implementation
2020-11-22T23:00:01Z amirouche: the mystery is solved
2020-11-22T23:01:12Z aeth: It looks like it's an R7RS interpreter written in R7RS (actually written for Chibi), where the main addition is an (unsyntax) library that provides a (meta ...) syntax
2020-11-22T23:01:22Z aeth: (page 6 of the PDF)
2020-11-22T23:01:34Z aeth: you just don't get any of this without downloading the PDF (you can't even view it, you have to download it)
2020-11-22T23:02:42Z amirouche: next time I do an SRFI, I, too, will create scheme.
2020-11-22T23:03:38Z aeth: I guess the library is too low-level to add without just writing your own implementation (or modifying one)
2020-11-22T23:04:08Z aeth: But it doesn't look particularly interesting because it only adds (unsyntax) so other than that, it's just a small -- and probably slow -- interprter
2020-11-22T23:05:22Z amirouche: which library is too low-level to add?
2020-11-22T23:05:40Z amirouche: aeth: I think it support both syntax-case and syntax-rule
2020-11-22T23:07:36Z aeth: amirouche: the one library that it adds, (unsyntax)
2020-11-22T23:08:59Z amirouche: those forms are inspired from chez
2020-11-22T23:09:38Z amirouche: I am (again!) project shopping, I think I will rewrite my scheme to javascript compiler and was looking for an expander
2020-11-22T23:10:21Z amirouche: meta form is so handy
2020-11-22T23:10:48Z jcowan: What Unsyntax really does is provide support for every syntax system known to Schemerkind.  Syntax-rules, syntax-case, explicit renaming, implicit renaming, syntactic closures, the R4RS appendix, the list goes on.
2020-11-22T23:10:50Z amirouche: I stumbled upon it while trying to implement a R7RS define-library to chez module form transpiler
2020-11-22T23:11:09Z amirouche: wow!
2020-11-22T23:11:31Z jcowan: Currently it generates Chibi, but it is designed to be easy to retarget.
2020-11-22T23:12:05Z jcowan: Define-macro, too, if you don't mind shooting yourself in the foot.
2020-11-22T23:13:51Z aeth: that's way more ambitious than its own documentation implies
2020-11-22T23:13:56Z amirouche: +1
2020-11-22T23:30:15Z amirouche: it does not do dead code elimination
2020-11-22T23:30:27Z amirouche: and indeed it is somewhat slow
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2020-11-22T23:44:36Z amirouche: neither does chez, there is no dead code elimination during expand.
2020-11-22T23:44:45Z amirouche: afaict
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2020-11-23T02:10:17Z jcowan: All that is left up to the underlying Scheme.  Of course Chibi as an interpreter doesn't optimize.
2020-11-23T02:10:28Z jcowan: But Unsyntax could front Chez just as well.
2020-11-23T02:10:40Z jcowan: or Loko, or Stalin ....
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2020-11-23T09:45:07Z mdhughes: Huh. https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/jz5q28/protecting_schemes_name_for_the_next_20_years_by/
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2020-11-23T10:01:45Z wasamasa: the subdomain idea is pretty cool, IIRC the JS community has something similar
2020-11-23T10:02:22Z wasamasa: yup: https://js.org/
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2020-11-23T11:13:41Z amirouche: that is a fantastic idea!
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2020-11-23T12:46:37Z tatsumaru: Hello guys, I am using Neil Van Dyke's module for SICP in racket. I installed it successfully and selected it from language menu. Do I still need to write in the definitions window ' #lang planet neil/sicp ' ? Thanks.
2020-11-23T12:46:48Z tatsumaru: in DrRacket*
2020-11-23T12:47:51Z amirouche: idk, but there is a #racket channel too
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2020-11-23T16:53:55Z amirouche: I was under the impression that the expander could eliminate code, I am not sure why.
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2020-11-23T18:25:42Z Zipheir: amirouche: It can be used to remove expressions, e.g. macros like assume might expand to empty begins if `unsafe' is defined.
2020-11-23T18:26:32Z Zipheir: amirouche: But what more could you expect?  Syntax-level optimization?
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2020-11-23T18:30:42Z amirouche: expand is all about syntax but chez scheme expander does produce somewhat optimized code
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2020-11-23T18:31:04Z amirouche: but it does not eliminate dead code, not even unused variables.
2020-11-23T18:31:48Z amirouche: I do not think that syntax-level optimizations is a thing.
2020-11-23T18:35:13Z Zipheir: It could be.
2020-11-23T18:36:30Z Zipheir: A simple rewrite rule, for instance, might replace nested lets with let*.
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2020-11-23T18:41:43Z Zipheir: It's just like providing simplification rules for any system.  The difficulty is establishing equivalence between Scheme forms in the presence of side-effects, call/cc, etc.
2020-11-23T18:46:41Z Zipheir: The historic origin of programming languages is quite literally syntactic transformations, so there's nothing weird about the idea.
2020-11-23T19:08:46Z Irvise[m]: TIL that Idris 2 is built/bootstrapped in/by scheme. They are using chez if anyone wonders
2020-11-23T19:10:09Z Irvise[m]: Racket is also a valid scheme (as per they webpage)
2020-11-23T19:11:58Z amirouche: There was a presentation of idris 2 at scheme workshop 2019
2020-11-23T19:12:00Z amirouche: iirc
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2020-11-23T19:14:11Z Zipheir: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
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2020-11-24T10:02:24Z amirouche: good morning scheme!
2020-11-24T10:03:15Z imode: good morning.
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2020-11-24T13:26:32Z siraben: Yay, Chicken is cross-compiling!
2020-11-24T13:26:54Z LeoNerd: But why /did/ the chicken cross the.. er.. Oh nevermind
2020-11-24T13:28:10Z siraben: To get to the other platform!
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2020-11-24T15:31:14Z remby: someone talk me out of implementing a scheme
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2020-11-24T15:36:00Z aeth: continuations aren't very useful (in that you want to avoid them for performance reasons), but they're a large part of the work in implementing a Scheme (so, just implementing the useful things derived from continuations is probably easier)
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2020-11-24T15:55:05Z siraben: R5RS gives the denotational semantics for continuations which can be turned into an interpreter (provided your implementation language is functional)
2020-11-24T15:55:29Z siraben: Though of course one could defunctionalize the interpreter to implement them in a language without closures.
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2020-11-24T16:20:10Z amirouche: aeth: just wanted to discuss not start a flameware :)
2020-11-24T16:20:31Z aeth: amirouche: my connection timed out when writing a reply
2020-11-24T16:20:38Z amirouche: oh
2020-11-24T16:26:24Z aeth: siraben: yes, but now that's just ruining the whole performance (continuation-based interpreter) for an edge case (when you actually use continuations)
2020-11-24T16:26:41Z aeth: siraben: doing it efficiently is one of the hardest problems in writing a Scheme, or at least that's what it seems like
2020-11-24T16:27:11Z siraben: I haven't benchmarked it before, why would it be slower?
2020-11-24T16:27:33Z amirouche: the "easy way" is a whole program transformation.
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2020-11-24T16:28:53Z amirouche: I am not an expert, but here is how it looks like before closure conversion: https://github.com/amirouche/ruse/blob/master/out.pretty.js#L194
2020-11-24T16:28:58Z aeth: siraben: the impression I get is... well... there are well-established techniques in efficient language implementation (interpreter or compiler), and, sure, with a Lisp you can just throw out the 2/3 of the book that's about parsing, but just continuations themselves kind of make you throw out the remaining 1/3
2020-11-24T16:30:03Z aeth: amirouche: JS has wonderful syntax for things like that! :-P
2020-11-24T16:30:50Z amirouche: aeth: yes, I am trying to port that code to python using python pattern matching, but without anonymous function or multiline lambdas, it is too much work
2020-11-24T16:31:06Z amirouche: (I replace nanopass framework, with pattern matching)
2020-11-24T16:32:46Z siraben: CPS transform itself is awfully slow, it must be closure converted and if possible, partially evaluated
2020-11-24T16:33:24Z siraben: Oops, the transform itself is not slow but it results in slow code
2020-11-24T16:33:48Z amirouche: yes
2020-11-24T16:34:11Z aeth: siraben: Yes, the best you can hope for in (a simple) efficient Scheme is to compile with a CPS transform and then... I guess... an untransform. I haven't really worked out a design for that yet, but that's what I'm guessing. So the wrong call/cc will instantly deoptimize it.
2020-11-24T16:34:24Z aeth: Otherwise, you basically come up with an approach and publish a paper...
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2020-11-24T16:34:56Z amirouche: that is the reverse of Single-Assignement-Something does, where they pick part of the code and transform me into something that implement say coroutines.
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2020-11-24T16:37:35Z remby: what does this mean for using backends in scheme? do they have to support CPS or does it matter?
2020-11-24T16:39:16Z aeth: remby: no, but having lambdas helps a ton
2020-11-24T16:39:34Z amirouche: I do not understand the question.
2020-11-24T16:40:27Z amirouche: what does "using backends in scheme" mean. Is the question about using a Scheme implementation or building Scheme implementation?
2020-11-24T16:40:29Z aeth: remby: CPS is the thing you do
2020-11-24T16:40:41Z aeth: easier with lambdas than with other constructs
2020-11-24T16:40:57Z remby: I see
2020-11-24T16:40:57Z aeth: And then having tail recursion is preferred, but optional, since you can emulate it in several ways (gotos or trampolines iirc)
2020-11-24T16:42:03Z remby: the two backends I was eyeing seem to only do SSA
2020-11-24T16:42:06Z remby: darn
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2020-11-24T16:42:42Z Riastradh: CPS vs SSA vs ANF vs whatever is a bit of a red herring.
2020-11-24T16:43:23Z Riastradh: Compiling nested procedure calls to sequential instructions on a stack machine?  No matter how you do it, you're going to make `continuations' explicit, whether you call them that or just `stack frames'.
2020-11-24T16:44:58Z Riastradh: Whether you call your compiler's intermediate representation `CPS' or `SSA' or `ANF' doesn't really make any difference.
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2020-11-24T18:16:43Z amirouche: I guess reading about CPS, SSA and ANF is still a requirement?
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2020-11-24T18:32:11Z holri1: I am new to Scheme. I wonder of it is hard to switch between Scheme implementations? Say I learn Guile first, can I program without problems in Chicken? Or is there a new learning curce for each? Are there confustions when switching?
2020-11-24T18:33:43Z wasamasa: it's hard to write scheme without using implementation-specific functionality, so there is some effort involved when switching
2020-11-24T18:33:54Z wasamasa: how much only you'll be able to tell
2020-11-24T18:38:06Z Zipheir: holri1: In my experience, you can always switch to a new Scheme without too much trouble.  It's just a matter of learning some new vocabulary (library layout, etc.).
2020-11-24T18:38:30Z Zipheir: holri1: You can easily learn on one Scheme and use it for as long as it's useful to you.
2020-11-24T18:41:45Z amirouche: it is easier to move from scheme to another scheme, than say java to python or javascript
2020-11-24T18:41:54Z amirouche: including the ecosystem and the programming style
2020-11-24T18:42:15Z amirouche: there is some difference how the module system is implemented, but that is 1 hours of study.
2020-11-24T18:43:01Z Zipheir: amirouche: Not among R7RS or R6RS Schemes.
2020-11-24T18:44:09Z Zipheir: The thing that I hope people *don't* do is stare at the various implementations like Buridan's ass and never get anywhere.
2020-11-24T18:44:12Z amirouche: difference between R7RS and R6RS is minimal.
2020-11-24T18:44:53Z Zipheir: I meant that all R6 Schemes have the same module system, and all R7s have the same module system. (modulo small details)
2020-11-24T18:45:44Z amirouche: yes
2020-11-24T18:45:53Z amirouche: but guile still favors use-modules
2020-11-24T18:46:03Z Zipheir: Pfft.
2020-11-24T18:46:17Z amirouche: holri1: what do you want to program?
2020-11-24T18:46:46Z Zipheir: Guile wants to be the Glorious GNU Extension Language and is quietly an R6RS.
2020-11-24T18:46:57Z amirouche: (and an R7RS)
2020-11-24T18:47:07Z Zipheir: How's that coming?
2020-11-24T18:47:18Z amirouche: idk, give up on guile one year ago
2020-11-24T18:47:31Z amirouche: I do not use guile anymore
2020-11-24T18:48:05Z Zipheir: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/R7RS-Support.html isn't super encouraging.
2020-11-24T18:48:28Z Zipheir: "Happily, the syntax for R7RS modules was chosen to be compatible with R6RS, and so Guile’s documentation there applies."  This is not exactly true.
2020-11-24T18:50:17Z Zipheir: But they do claim to have full R7 support.
2020-11-24T18:54:05Z amirouche: R7 small
2020-11-24T18:54:31Z amirouche: and they were bugs but that is not the problem I have with guile implementation
2020-11-24T18:54:50Z amirouche: there is too much C code. I tried to navigate the cps transformation could not wrap my head around it.
2020-11-24T18:55:01Z amirouche: cps transformation is in scheme
2020-11-24T18:56:50Z Zipheir: Guile's C is pretty hairy, IME.
2020-11-24T18:57:01Z mdhughes: Guile's got a decent set of libraries, but it's not amazing in any area. Guix is the real draw to it. And I avoid GNU projects when possible.
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2020-11-24T19:00:41Z amirouche: If I continued my search engine using guile it would be much more advanced (I put together R7RS libs that interested me in two weeks) but it would be 2 to 3 times slower.
2020-11-24T19:01:02Z amirouche: I benchmarked something against chez, and it was slower noticebly slower
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2020-11-24T19:02:53Z holri1: I program free software on GNU/Linux so Guile is the obious choice. But sometimes I need Windows exe's (statically linked) without installation, so I thought about Chicken. Is there a Scheme that can do interface with Windows ActiveX / COM ?
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2020-11-24T19:04:22Z Zipheir: No idea.
2020-11-24T19:04:27Z amirouche: Gambit and Chez might work, even probably cyclone.
2020-11-24T19:04:33Z Zipheir: CHICKEN apparently runs well on Windows.
2020-11-24T19:04:34Z amirouche: that said, I never use windows.
2020-11-24T19:05:08Z Zipheir: Virtually everything runs on Linux, so Guile isn't *the* obvious choice.
2020-11-24T19:05:41Z mdhughes: Chez has a nice FFI, and compiles on Windows (well, into a blob that runs in petite-chez; there's a tool to make a binary as well).
2020-11-24T19:05:43Z holri1: i do not use Windows either, but my customers do :-(
2020-11-24T19:06:19Z amirouche: I do not have customers
2020-11-24T19:06:20Z mdhughes: CHICKEN is super easy to make work with your C code, but it's slow in the interpreter and the compiler takes a long time on big programs.
2020-11-24T19:06:22Z amirouche shrugs
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2020-11-24T19:08:56Z Zipheir: holri: CHICKEN doesn't mention static linking on Windows, but apparently "deployment is fully supported on Windows" https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Deployment
2020-11-24T19:09:11Z Irvise[m]: In all fairness to Guile, it advertises itself as an extention language, performance is not their main goal (though they really wanted/needed to improve it). I have not run any Guile3 tests, but people seem to be happier regarding its speed
2020-11-24T19:09:35Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's fine.
2020-11-24T19:09:56Z Irvise[m]: Why did they decided to creat a huge package manager based on it? My guess is that they really liked scheme :)
2020-11-24T19:10:11Z amirouche: Nix is brillant.
2020-11-24T19:10:25Z amirouche: I know nix mainly by the way of guix.
2020-11-24T19:10:51Z Zipheir: The last time I tried NixOS it was extremely difficult to get around a single compilation failure.
2020-11-24T19:11:03Z mdhughes: I'm doing my own package-building for multiple platforms in Chez, and a dedicated tool for it is not a bad idea. Not sure it needs a whole language to support it.
2020-11-24T19:11:06Z amirouche: compilation failures are pain, but the promise is incredible.
2020-11-24T19:11:16Z Zipheir: They've also gone down the systemd/wayland/RedHat route, unfortunately.
2020-11-24T19:11:40Z amirouche: the ability to rollback is incredible.
2020-11-24T19:11:48Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-11-24T19:11:56Z amirouche: spinning a full os with a scheme configuration: awesome.
2020-11-24T19:12:00Z amirouche: and it is repeatable.
2020-11-24T19:12:14Z Zipheir: Why they chose C++ to implement the NixOS core is also a major mystery to me.
2020-11-24T19:12:17Z holri1: Is there a Scheme with a debugger that allows to change the running code without restarting the program? (like Smalltalk, Common Lisp?)
2020-11-24T19:12:26Z amirouche: Zipheir: +1
2020-11-24T19:12:32Z Zipheir: Not that I've ever heard of.
2020-11-24T19:13:37Z mdhughes: You can do that somewhat in Chez, but generally you just load the script in REPL, run it till it crashes, rewrite the bad function & paste it back in your source, rerun.
2020-11-24T19:13:43Z amirouche: There is live coding, but neveer used it.
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2020-11-24T19:17:41Z wasamasa: mit-scheme has an advanced exception system
2020-11-24T19:17:47Z wasamasa: so I'd expect that to have it
2020-11-24T19:18:20Z wasamasa: there is one person on #chicken using the interpreter with an exception-catching game loop
2020-11-24T19:18:21Z amirouche: holri1: debugger are not used much afaik, maybe mit scheme does it well.
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2020-11-24T19:18:54Z amirouche: holri1: and guile debugger is not what you would expect coming from js or python or even java.
2020-11-24T19:19:05Z wasamasa: and it detects a changed file to load up using the inotify egg
2020-11-24T19:19:14Z wasamasa: so it is totally doable anywhere
2020-11-24T19:19:21Z wasamasa: the question is whether you want to go that route
2020-11-24T19:22:54Z holri1: I have found the python debugger lacking...
2020-11-24T19:38:20Z Zipheir: IIRC Pressfield has a very combative way of looking at the process of making things.  (I mean, look at the titles.  Very "tough guy", IMHO.)
2020-11-24T19:38:29Z Zipheir: Oops, wrong pipe.
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2020-11-24T20:07:13Z jcowan: R0RS gives you something close to the original Scheme interpreter written in Maclisp (the ancestor of CL); see section 5 of <file:///Users/johncowan/scheme/r7rs-spec/rnrs/r0rs.pdf>, which is an OCRed scan of the original
2020-11-24T20:07:46Z Riastradh: file:///Users/johncowan/scheme/r7rs-spec/rnrs/r0rs.pdf, eh?  Asking us to break into your laptop to read the file?
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2020-11-24T20:08:13Z jcowan: Well, you could do that.
2020-11-24T20:08:18Z Formbi: hi
2020-11-24T20:09:16Z jcowan: Or, with much less difficulty, you could use https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-spec/blob/errata/rnrs/r0rs.pdf
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2020-11-24T22:29:02Z Zipheir: jcowan: Are you of the opinion that integer sets are more useful than integer "maps"?  I'm wondering if maybe it would be better if SRFI 217 allowed values (other than #t, in essence) to be stored under integer keys.
2020-11-24T22:31:19Z Zipheir: Actually, int maps have a strong rationale of their own: they can be much faster than general comparator-driven mappings for exact integer keys.
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2020-11-24T22:35:26Z Zipheir: Does anyone else have an opinion on that?  Is it useful to have int-keyed dictionaries as well as int sets?
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2020-11-24T22:48:41Z Riastradh: `much faster'?
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2020-11-24T22:59:51Z Zipheir: e.g. an implementation of int maps using Patricia tries can give you lookup time bounded by the length of the binary representation of the key, rather than the O(log n) lookup time of red-black trees.
2020-11-24T23:00:06Z Zipheir: But there are, of course, other ways.
2020-11-24T23:01:26Z jcowan: Makes sense to me.
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2020-11-24T23:10:31Z Zipheir: Great.
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2020-11-25T00:02:39Z jcowan: Zipheir: Patricia tries are probably faster than HAMTs as the size of the integers grows, but are they always faster?
2020-11-25T00:05:12Z Zipheir: jcowan: I haven't read much about HAMTs, but I'd imagine their characteristics are similar with some overhead from the hash function.
2020-11-25T00:07:04Z jcowan: The question then is whether it's worthwhile vs. SRFI 146 hashmaps
2020-11-25T00:07:10Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-11-25T00:08:08Z Zipheir: The obvious use case of integer maps is when the integers aren't the output of some hash function.
2020-11-25T00:08:32Z jcowan: and indeed whether integer sets are worthwhile vs. SRFI 146 ordered mappings.
2020-11-25T00:08:38Z Zipheir: Perhaps if they're label numbers, etc.
2020-11-25T00:08:53Z jcowan: Enum maps
2020-11-25T00:09:18Z Zipheir: For comparison, Haskell provides a general Map library and a specialized IntMap library.
2020-11-25T00:11:13Z Zipheir: The advantage over SRFI 146 mappings is purely a matter of efficiency.  No comparators needed, and integer maps may have better time or space behavior, depending on implementation.
2020-11-25T00:12:32Z Zipheir: Er, GHC provides those libraries.  Haskell 2010 only has alists.
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2020-11-25T00:15:22Z jcowan: It looks like Haskell 98 and 2010 are more or less R[45]RS
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2020-11-25T00:17:23Z Zipheir: Sorry, I'm back now.
2020-11-25T00:18:49Z Zipheir: Anyway, I think integer maps are worth it.  There are plenty of applications for them.  They can be used as an alternative to vectors, e.g. when union and intersection are operations you'd like to use frequently.
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2020-11-25T01:55:13Z jcowan nods.
2020-11-25T01:55:53Z jcowan: Eventually I want to go back to ordered sets as well (they are easy to layer over mappings)
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2020-11-25T02:22:40Z foof: jcowan: It's misleading both to call Chibi an interpreter and to suggest that's why it's slow.  TinyScheme is an interpreter.
2020-11-25T02:23:15Z foof: Chibi has separate analysis, code generation and application stages, where the latter two currently target a VM optimized for size more than speed.
2020-11-25T02:24:42Z foof: There are faster VM's, notably those with JIT such as Java and V8, which can be competitive with languages directly compiling to native code.
2020-11-25T02:27:46Z foof: Chibi also has separate optimization passes, and you can write and plugin your own optimizations dynamically in Scheme, but you get diminishing returns due to the lack of a JIT.
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2020-11-25T02:59:18Z jcowan: Well, everything has an interpreter and a compiler in it.  For native compilation, it's the hardware that is the interpreter; in TinyScheme the only compiler stage is the parser (i.e. `read`)
2020-11-25T03:00:05Z jcowan: some non-Lisps don't even have that, particularly APL intepreters
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2020-11-25T03:29:23Z mdhughes: Chibi does very poorly on https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/ even Gauche is faster.
2020-11-25T03:30:04Z mdhughes: And if tinyscheme's tests were fixed to actually run we'd see how that ranked.
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2020-11-25T03:57:06Z remby: are command line arguments up to each scheme?
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2020-11-25T04:05:47Z Zipheir: remby: R7RS provides command-line.
2020-11-25T04:07:20Z Zipheir: remby: As does R6RS.
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2020-11-25T04:15:20Z lockywolf: What are "procedural macros"?
2020-11-25T04:20:54Z Zipheir: I suppose that describes macro systems like syntax-case, etc. which give procedures that take a syntax object.
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2020-11-25T04:21:50Z Zipheir: (define-syntax foo (lambda (obj) (syntax-case obj () ...)))
2020-11-25T04:22:31Z Zipheir: Unlike syntax-rules.
2020-11-25T04:25:36Z foof: mdhughes: Gauche is extremely fast, much faster than any other VM-based Scheme.
2020-11-25T04:26:07Z foof: If I recall, Chibi is 10-100x faster than Tiny.
2020-11-25T04:26:49Z foof: But yes, as I noted to begin with, Chibi doesn't even attempt to optimize for speed.
2020-11-25T04:28:22Z foof: I was just taking issue with its description as an "interpreter."
2020-11-25T04:29:29Z foof: jcowan: Under that interpretation, Chez is an interpreter as well, so you can't claim interpreters are slow.  It's not a very useful distinction.
2020-11-25T04:30:16Z jcowan: Well, it's a native compiler, so the interpreter is the hardware IIUC.
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2020-11-25T04:37:42Z foof: It's just confusing either way, and not a meaningful distinction.  Tiny actually is a tree interpreter with no separate analysis pass - that's a very different beast.
2020-11-25T04:38:31Z foof: The difference between Chibi and Chez is (unoptimized) VM vs (optimized) native code.
2020-11-25T04:38:59Z lockywolf: Zipheir, thanks
2020-11-25T04:39:11Z Riastradh: When you like to philosophically argue semantics there's no meaningful distinction, but when you like to make insinuations and cast aspersions about performance the distinction is night and day.
2020-11-25T04:44:11Z foof: It's not philosophical.  As an implementor, I'm looking at the implementations themselves.  In that sense, the night and day difference is between tiny and everything else.
2020-11-25T04:46:09Z foof: Making finer grained distinctions, there are the custom VMs (e.g. Chibi, Gauche, Guile), generic VMs (Kawa, SISC), C backends (Chicken) and native backends (Chez).
2020-11-25T04:46:12Z Riastradh: (mit-scheme also has a tree interpreter!)
2020-11-25T04:49:10Z Riastradh: (and it's heinously slow)
2020-11-25T04:49:10Z foof: Chibi is on the slow end of the VMs due to its design goals.  Gauche is on the fast end.  Both fall well behind the native backends.
2020-11-25T04:50:14Z foof: However, it depends a lot on the benchmark.  Chibi actually has fast I/O and low FFI overhead, so in an fgrep benchmark it's faster the Larceny.
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2020-11-25T04:52:54Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/CompilerAvailable.md
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2020-11-25T04:54:54Z Riastradh: mit-scheme has abysmally slow i/o
2020-11-25T04:57:01Z jcowan: Anyhow, people don't pick Scheme implementations based on performance, usually.  They pick them on tribal allegiance.
2020-11-25T04:57:48Z foof: I think Chicken's interpreter is closure-compiled, not strictly tree-walking?  It's painfully slow either way.
2020-11-25T05:04:41Z jcowan: Fair enough.  No interpreter can be *simply* tree-walking, as Scheme doesn't allow that.
2020-11-25T05:04:59Z jcowan: I have never looked at the code
2020-11-25T05:05:06Z foof: I guess from a user's perspective there is a less clear distinction, but if you're used to tinyscheme performance and hear Chibi get clustered in the same bucket, you'll expect much worse of Chibi than it actually provides.
2020-11-25T05:05:37Z foof: I prefer the characterization "Chibi has a slow VM."
2020-11-25T05:10:09Z mdhughes: Well, there shouldn't be tribes, except fast and slow tribes.
2020-11-25T05:12:01Z foof: There shouldn't be tribes except R6RS and R7RS.  That way you can run the same code on whichever impl suits you best.
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2020-11-25T06:35:08Z mdhughes: Are there even any slow R6RS impls? (again, Racket's not fast, but it's in the top 10)
2020-11-25T06:36:18Z mdhughes: Besides there's a lot of R5/4/"not really a spec so much as paren syntax" Schemes.
2020-11-25T06:37:03Z foof: Guile.
2020-11-25T06:37:24Z foof: Yep, and they are isolated tribes.
2020-11-25T06:38:05Z foof: The whole point of a standard is to not be tied to a single impl.
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2020-11-25T06:38:49Z foof: There are good reasons to want to use a niche Scheme in some cases.  You shouldn't be restricted only to libraries specifically written for that niche Scheme.
2020-11-25T06:42:29Z foof: (And ideally we'd have better unity between R6RS and R7RS.)
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2020-11-25T08:51:44Z ecraven: mdhughes: the problem with tinyscheme is that it does funny things to stdin and stdout, iirc, so the benchmark script doesn't get any output from it
2020-11-25T08:52:52Z mdhughes: It works on my machine?
2020-11-25T08:53:51Z mdhughes: I just have a maintest (it has no modules, but load works) and some old glue code, lemme check.
2020-11-25T08:56:29Z mdhughes: Hm, read gave me an EOF. Maybe I have to open a stream first?
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2020-11-25T09:00:04Z mdhughes: Trivial solution: Wrap main in 	(with-input-from-file (car *args*) (lambda ()
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2020-11-25T09:00:17Z mdhughes: And then give your input file as first arg.
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2020-11-25T09:06:24Z mdhughes: I'm looking in the source now, and I don't know why stdout works! inport & outport are initialized to NIL.
2020-11-25T09:07:14Z wasamasa: rudybot: your stdio is inportant to us
2020-11-25T09:07:15Z rudybot: wasamasa: probably the most inportant change (imo) not in there is you can now declare variables in sub-blocks, or even in mid block (but they'll be hauled up to the innermost enclosing block start by the compiler)
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2020-11-25T09:15:20Z mdhughes: (I did find where they're both given the usual values. So I dunno why stdin is EOF at start.)
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2020-11-25T09:21:59Z amirouche: hello #scheme :)
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2020-11-25T16:04:07Z tatsumaru: hey guys, can anyone recommend a good book for writing modern AI code with lisp/scheme?
2020-11-25T16:05:29Z amirouche: what kind of ai are you willing to write? what does qualify as AI according to you?
2020-11-25T16:05:49Z amirouche: tatsumaru: anyway look into https://opencog.org
2020-11-25T16:06:04Z amirouche: tatsumaru: does a search engine qualify as AI project
2020-11-25T16:07:37Z tatsumaru: potentially yes, chatbots too
2020-11-25T16:08:01Z tatsumaru: content generators
2020-11-25T16:08:10Z amirouche: NLG?
2020-11-25T16:08:29Z amirouche: I have two project that are AI related but they do not involve machine learning
2020-11-25T16:08:40Z amirouche: at not directly
2020-11-25T16:08:44Z amirouche: at least not directly
2020-11-25T16:09:29Z tatsumaru: well I know OpenAI has a pretty sophisticated content generator that is scary good. It's not some markov chain parlor trick, but writes actual articles. not sure how it works though.
2020-11-25T16:09:56Z tatsumaru: they actually hesitated to release because of the potential to generate fake news.
2020-11-25T16:10:07Z amirouche: GPT-3?
2020-11-25T16:10:16Z amirouche: it was released but not open source
2020-11-25T16:10:57Z amirouche: opencog is very advanced they aim for A General I but IME it is impossible to enter the project.
2020-11-25T16:11:01Z amirouche: the stack is too complex
2020-11-25T16:11:15Z amirouche: GPT-3 is available as a service
2020-11-25T16:11:51Z tatsumaru: hmm interesting.
2020-11-25T16:13:07Z amirouche: tatsumaru: i could brag about my project, but you did not say what is you particular interest about AI? Do you have a particular product in mind?
2020-11-25T16:14:34Z amirouche: tatsumaru: I share with you a document I am working on
2020-11-25T16:14:39Z amirouche: +can
2020-11-25T16:15:20Z amirouche: tatsumaru: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v34hynkeHFdBk_4O8M5AmlGkEaNSre-BdnEZ0tXeFuc/edit?usp=sharing
2020-11-25T16:15:22Z wasamasa: isn't the trick to either reuse some library from someone else who did all the hard work or be doing the hard work in academia and never publish source code or anything that may be used to verify your results?
2020-11-25T16:15:23Z tatsumaru: amirouche, just to clarify, I am just a beginner at AI, looking to learn more about the potential of scheme/lisp languages to write powerful ai engines. I don't know enough to be useful yet.
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2020-11-25T16:15:37Z wasamasa: that's the classic "Lisp is good for AI" fallacy
2020-11-25T16:15:45Z wasamasa: which is how many years out of date by now?
2020-11-25T16:16:00Z wasamasa: are you aware the AI they targeted back then is way different from the AI done now?
2020-11-25T16:16:04Z amirouche: not that much, it is missing a few libraries - only - totally possible.
2020-11-25T16:16:08Z tatsumaru: yes, that's why I am asking
2020-11-25T16:16:43Z tatsumaru: I know they didn't have deep learning etc. back in the days so I am curious
2020-11-25T16:16:44Z amirouche: tatsumaru: I am / was interested about IA and NLP in particular, that's why I started scheme because it is more performant that Python.
2020-11-25T16:17:05Z amirouche: I say was because it is a long adventure and kind of loose sight along the way
2020-11-25T16:17:08Z wasamasa: expert systems, simple neural networks and alpha-beta pruning vs deep neural networks, statistics and GPUs
2020-11-25T16:17:10Z tatsumaru: my goal is to write a chatbot that's highly optimized for a specific conversation
2020-11-25T16:17:55Z dTal: You want 'cat'
2020-11-25T16:17:58Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-25T16:18:25Z tatsumaru: I would like it to learn over time and ask better questions if that's possible
2020-11-25T16:18:43Z dTal: "Hello, I.T. Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
2020-11-25T16:18:50Z wasamasa: on the other hand though, I find it interesting to study the old approaches and find clever solutions where modern approaches are clearly overkill
2020-11-25T16:18:59Z amirouche: tatsumaru: what is the goal of the AI agent in the conversation?
2020-11-25T16:19:15Z wasamasa: aliceml is an example of the former, here's one of the latter: https://nullprogram.com/blog/2020/11/24/
2020-11-25T16:19:46Z tatsumaru: to filter out irrelevant conversations
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2020-11-25T16:20:13Z tatsumaru: Person A wants to talk about X, AI only cares about Y, says bye to all X-ers
2020-11-25T16:21:18Z wasamasa: or implementing well-known solutions in pattern recognition using leptonica
2020-11-25T16:21:33Z wasamasa: that kind of thing doesn't risk turning into an open-ended research problem :P
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2020-11-25T16:24:49Z tatsumaru: also in general i'd like to be able to write simpler machine learning tools for private use to help with some tasks and information collection
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2020-11-25T16:25:35Z amirouche: tatsumaru: how did you learn about scheme?
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2020-11-25T16:25:58Z tatsumaru: a friend told me that scheme is super cool because of continuations and I became curious
2020-11-25T16:38:32Z siraben: a continuation for me, and a continuation for thee
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2020-11-25T17:35:48Z amirouche: let's make of those contniuations
2020-11-25T17:35:54Z amirouche: let's make more of those contniuations ;)
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2020-11-25T17:59:54Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: They *are* really cool, but lots of first-class continuation wizardry can also make your program impossible to understand.  In addition, call/cc is a rather inflexible tool.
2020-11-25T18:01:24Z Zipheir: The most common use of call/cc is as a rather mundane escape construct: (call/cc (lambda (return) <some-kind-of-loop>))
2020-11-25T18:02:31Z Zipheir: The Seasoned Schemer contains a good intro to delimited continuations.
2020-11-25T18:03:38Z aeth: Zipheir: impossible to understand, and nearly impossible to optimize
2020-11-25T18:03:47Z aeth: they're basically the FP gotos
2020-11-25T18:04:28Z Zipheir: aeth: Yes.  As for "impossible to optimize", how do you optimize goto?
2020-11-25T18:04:43Z aeth: useful gotos are contained within a limited scope, just like useful continuations
2020-11-25T18:04:55Z aeth: and like 90% of gotos in C are to handle a limitation in C w.r.t. error handling iirc
2020-11-25T18:05:53Z aeth: Zipheir: you optimize goto by using structured programming instead, so the compiler knows what you mean :-p
2020-11-25T18:07:09Z Zipheir: :-/  I meant that, if you're using a Scheme in which call/cc actually *is* goto (e.g. one using CPS), what more optimization can be done?
2020-11-25T18:08:22Z Zipheir: In any case, call/cc is a construct with unlimited power.  An construct with unlimited power are really dangerous to the project of writing understandable programs.
2020-11-25T18:08:45Z Zipheir: s/An construct/And constructs/
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2020-11-25T18:12:14Z aeth: Zipheir: call/cc is worse than goto because it's even more powerful than the semantically simple thing that goto does
2020-11-25T18:12:16Z mdhughes: Unoptimized: JMP aa bb. Optimized: CLV BVC aa.
2020-11-25T18:13:41Z aeth: Zipheir: it's actually kind of weird because lambda's supposed to be the ultimate goto, but then Scheme has the *actual* ultimate goto, unless that paper's supposed to be about continuations
2020-11-25T18:14:41Z Zipheir: aeth: I'm not sure I understand.  That *is* what that paper's about.
2020-11-25T18:16:30Z Zipheir: IIUC, the "ultimate GOTO" thing relates to the facts that (1) a continuation is just a procedure, and (2) in CPS, procedure calls are just gotos.
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2020-11-25T18:20:46Z Zipheir: Calling λ the "ultimate goto" relates to the paper's actual title: "Debunking the expensive procedure call myth".
2020-11-25T18:21:27Z bruschkov: speaking of continuations, would anybody like to take a quick glance at a some exercise from the-little-schemer? I must admit that I stared for hours at this and can't figure out why it doesn't work.... https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=c84d8936c02c4f1fcfeef958ee17967918354d51
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2020-11-25T18:23:25Z bruschkov: (Is there something like a #scheme-beginners channel, btw??)
2020-11-25T18:23:27Z bruschkov: (Is there something like a #scheme-beginners channel, btw?)
2020-11-25T18:23:41Z Zipheir: No, feel free to ask questions here.
2020-11-25T18:23:49Z Zipheir: Looking now.
2020-11-25T18:24:21Z bruschkov: one sec, this was the wrong function
2020-11-25T18:24:22Z Zipheir: Oh, yes, this is a CPS example.
2020-11-25T18:24:31Z aeth: Zipheir: but unlimited continuations make procedure calls expensive...
2020-11-25T18:24:33Z bruschkov: will paste the real version just now
2020-11-25T18:24:52Z aeth: Zipheir: Chicken iirc has a fancy hack to try to avoid this.
2020-11-25T18:25:05Z Zipheir: aeth: Good point.
2020-11-25T18:26:52Z bruschkov: Zipheir: https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=fd3e71bc12b9dc86858ea9213913430d8700757f
2020-11-25T18:27:51Z tatsumaru: is it okay to write code that's hard to understand if it's a solo project or will it also be hard to understand for me too
2020-11-25T18:28:35Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: If *you* can't understand it, don't write it. :)
2020-11-25T18:29:01Z bruschkov: tatsumaru: From my experience (in other languages than scheme) that is indeed what will happen. You will look at your coe after o longer break (say, a couple of weeks) and will not understand what the heck is going on...
2020-11-25T18:29:05Z tatsumaru: yeah I guess that makes sense, although my 3rd grade notebooks might have a different opinion
2020-11-25T18:30:00Z bruschkov: "Later, I will know how I meant that" is one of the great fallacies in programming :-)
2020-11-25T18:30:14Z tatsumaru: used the pages to create models for chaos theory
2020-11-25T18:30:31Z bruschkov: ;-)
2020-11-25T18:30:53Z Zipheir: bruschkov: It *looks* correct.  (lambda (evens) (col evens)) is η-equivalent to col, but that doesn't affect anything.
2020-11-25T18:31:42Z tatsumaru: bruschkov: in that particular instance I like Python's "Simple is better than complex, complex is better than complicated."
2020-11-25T18:32:01Z Zipheir: If only Python took that slogan seriously...
2020-11-25T18:32:23Z bruschkov: Zipheir: yeah, but try to run it and it will produce an empty list. At least for me it does..
2020-11-25T18:32:28Z tatsumaru: Back in the days Paul Graham used to speak highly of Python btw
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2020-11-25T18:32:58Z Zipheir: It has 10 million features but still can't do lexical scope.
2020-11-25T18:33:08Z bruschkov: I would say python itself takes that reasonably serious, still. But a lot of libraries / the ecosytem does not.
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2020-11-25T18:33:58Z Zipheir: bruschkov: What exactly is evens-only&co supposed to do?
2020-11-25T18:34:15Z Zipheir: Little Schemer has evens-only*&co, but that's a bit different.
2020-11-25T18:34:44Z mdhughes: Code everything in machine language, hand-assembled, and you will cease complaining about any HLL. If only because you're too busy and frustrated at your ML not working.
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2020-11-25T18:35:46Z Zipheir: (Taking yourself seriously is not the same as taking the goal of simplicity seriously.  Strip off all the bells, whistles, and gongs from Python and you'd be left with something significantly less elegant than Pascal.)
2020-11-25T18:36:37Z tatsumaru: A lot of people think Python's been deteriorating for the last couple of years. I've been avoiding it on purpose. Plus for some reason I never like what's most popular.
2020-11-25T18:37:11Z laertus: deteriorating how?
2020-11-25T18:37:46Z tatsumaru: They are complaining that the BDFL is starting to become oppressive and saying stuff like "You should use Django" etc.
2020-11-25T18:38:03Z laertus: do you mean guido?  i thought he quit
2020-11-25T18:38:30Z tatsumaru: Hmm, didn't know that.
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2020-11-25T18:39:02Z Zipheir: bruschkov: Take a look at your first cond clause.  I think you'll see why you're always getting ().
2020-11-25T18:39:11Z laertus: yeah, there was some tempest in a teapon about some python standard or something, and he seemed to grab his ball and go home
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2020-11-25T18:39:36Z laertus: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3292936/guido-van-rossum-resigns-whats-next-for-python.html
2020-11-25T18:40:13Z tatsumaru: I guess he was only a BD.
2020-11-25T18:40:14Z laertus: teapon=teapot :)
2020-11-25T18:41:08Z bruschkov: Zipheir: The function is supposed to sort out the even numbers out of a list of numbers
2020-11-25T18:41:17Z Zipheir: According to Guido, allowing assignments mid-expression is "a minor syntactic change".  Feh.
2020-11-25T18:41:56Z Zipheir: bruschkov: Why use the explicit continuation, then?
2020-11-25T18:42:02Z bruschkov: Zipheir: I use it actually as a preliminary excercise to evens-only*&co
2020-11-25T18:42:09Z Zipheir: Ah, that makes sense.
2020-11-25T18:42:17Z Zipheir: Well, the problem is the first cond clause.
2020-11-25T18:42:24Z bruschkov: I will look
2020-11-25T18:43:12Z tatsumaru: I noticed some people migrating from Python to Guile
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2020-11-25T18:43:40Z tatsumaru: I am curious to learn Guile at some point because I want to play around with Guix
2020-11-25T18:43:54Z bruschkov: Zipheir: ((null? '()) (col '())) ?
2020-11-25T18:44:16Z Zipheir: bruschkov: Does (null? '()) look like a tautology to you?
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2020-11-25T18:45:28Z bruschkov: Zipheir: Also, I thought for this example that explicit continuation gives some nice options. Instead of passing the identity functions (as in the example) one could for example pass a reduce+ to have a "sum-evens" function.
2020-11-25T18:45:45Z bruschkov: Zipheir: omg...
2020-11-25T18:45:48Z bruschkov: yes
2020-11-25T18:46:33Z Zipheir: Hah, my eyes jumped over that clause on a first-read, because I assumed it was testing `lat'.
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2020-11-25T18:47:06Z Zipheir: Right, you can pass any arbitrary continuation.
2020-11-25T18:47:07Z bruschkov: Zipheir: Me, too, haha! For more hours than I will freely admit here, lol!
2020-11-25T18:48:24Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: Go ahead.  Guile is pretty nice in that it's got both R6 and some level of R7 support.
2020-11-25T18:49:04Z amirouche: tatsumaru: meh where did you see that?
2020-11-25T18:49:18Z amirouche: tatsumaru: opencog use guile btw
2020-11-25T18:49:25Z amirouche: tatsumaru: to my regrets ;)
2020-11-25T18:49:50Z bruschkov: Zipheir: Thanks very much for your help!
2020-11-25T18:50:49Z Zipheir: bruschkov: yw, glad I could help.
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2020-11-25T18:59:54Z tatsumaru: amirouche what's your beef with Guile
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2020-11-25T19:00:03Z amirouche: tatsumaru: slow :/
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2020-11-25T19:00:25Z tatsumaru: isn't python slow too?
2020-11-25T19:00:33Z amirouche: also i spend too much time waiting reponses on pull requests and never got reponses
2020-11-25T19:00:42Z amirouche: s/spend/spent/
2020-11-25T19:00:46Z wasamasa: since when does guile do pull requests?
2020-11-25T19:01:06Z wasamasa: I thought it's a GNU project
2020-11-25T19:01:08Z amirouche: well, in fact those are emails but the principle applies
2020-11-25T19:01:26Z amirouche: they even ship pfds with bugs in guix
2020-11-25T19:01:49Z wasamasa: how dare they
2020-11-25T19:02:04Z tatsumaru: boycottguix
2020-11-25T19:02:04Z amirouche: that is personal reasons, prolly other have better experience, technically chez is better so I go with that.
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2020-11-25T19:03:54Z wasamasa: do you have links to the discussions in question?
2020-11-25T19:04:07Z wasamasa: just as data point the next time #emacs goes into worshipping guilemacs mode
2020-11-25T19:05:04Z Zipheir: "technically chez is better" ??
2020-11-25T19:05:43Z Zipheir: I still fail to understand why GuileMacs reimplemented Elisp.  No, I do understand, but I think the curse of compatibility is a horrible thing.
2020-11-25T19:06:15Z wasamasa: because nobody wants to rewrite all the emacs packages in scheme
2020-11-25T19:06:42Z amirouche: wasamasa: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/35518#11
2020-11-25T19:07:32Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Great!  An opportunity to get rid of lots of legacy code.
2020-11-25T19:07:36Z wasamasa: lol
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2020-11-25T19:08:19Z Zipheir: I am 100% serious.
2020-11-25T19:08:35Z amirouche: wasamasa: how does it relates to worshipping guilemacs? That's probably because the people in #guile were upset because I am too noisy
2020-11-25T19:09:03Z wasamasa: just a bunch of arguments to show them that guile cannot possible shoulder the responsibility
2020-11-25T19:09:26Z wasamasa: if they can't deal with a single dev handing in improvements to data structures, what are the odds they can deal with the whole emacs developer team
2020-11-25T19:09:35Z amirouche: sure things they are busy.
2020-11-25T19:10:48Z wasamasa: that site takes ages to load
2020-11-25T19:10:54Z wasamasa: don't tell me they wrote it in guile
2020-11-25T19:11:04Z amirouche: yes, but that is specific to that bug
2020-11-25T19:11:22Z wasamasa: the person you're looking for is ijp
2020-11-25T19:11:33Z amirouche: here is an other fast link to proove it work: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/32205
2020-11-25T19:11:33Z wasamasa: who's indeed been gone from #emacs for quite some time
2020-11-25T19:11:43Z wasamasa: rudybot: seen ijp
2020-11-25T19:11:43Z rudybot: wasamasa: ijp was seen in #emacs two years ago, saying "I don't think so, but there is a typing game ,,typing-of-emacs", and then ijp was seen quitting two years ago, saying "Ping timeout: 248 seconds"
2020-11-25T19:12:29Z amirouche: yeah. last thing I remember about them is saying something along the line: "So that is it, sitting in front of a computer or doing math?"
2020-11-25T19:13:20Z amirouche: he was upset or something.
2020-11-25T19:13:24Z Zipheir: How about both?
2020-11-25T19:14:03Z amirouche: Zipheir: I agree backward compatibility is a pain, but imagine the emacs team moving to guile, they can not possibly rewrite all the configurations of all existing users
2020-11-25T19:14:41Z amirouche: and making guile compatible with elisp is also difficult.
2020-11-25T19:14:41Z Zipheir: No, Emacs is stuck with Elisp.
2020-11-25T19:15:19Z nikita`: amirouche: ah yeah, gettext getting in the way was an unsolved problem
2020-11-25T19:15:39Z nikita`: i just looked at why it took so long to load and saw the long patch
2020-11-25T19:15:44Z Zipheir: It's just a huge monster OS-editor which can't change a bit due to its elephantine bulk.
2020-11-25T19:16:48Z tatsumaru: why should emacs move to guile?
2020-11-25T19:17:24Z Zipheir: Because Elisp is a poor Lisp.
2020-11-25T19:17:40Z amirouche: wasamasa: here is another email, I made a mistake, but the fix is correct and is one of the most requested basic feature https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=15228
2020-11-25T19:18:19Z tatsumaru: maybe they can something like python, where they release a new emacs that is guile based and support the old one for another 5-10 years and then discontinue it
2020-11-25T19:18:33Z tatsumaru: can do*
2020-11-25T19:18:40Z amirouche: who will start the new emacs?
2020-11-25T19:18:44Z wasamasa: that killed python
2020-11-25T19:18:47Z amirouche: that would be fork anyway
2020-11-25T19:18:54Z wasamasa: yup
2020-11-25T19:19:00Z tatsumaru: emacs will start it
2020-11-25T19:19:01Z mdhughes: We already have that, it's called VSCode.
2020-11-25T19:19:17Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-25T19:20:02Z tatsumaru: every now and then stuff has to be abandoned for a fresh start
2020-11-25T19:20:31Z tatsumaru: backwards compatibility is good in the short term but not forever
2020-11-25T19:20:39Z wasamasa looks at browsers
2020-11-25T19:20:39Z Zipheir: The first step in the right direction would be getting the Emacs core down to less than 30,000 lines of code.
2020-11-25T19:20:43Z wasamasa looks at windows
2020-11-25T19:20:45Z amirouche: tatsumaru: I agree with you, but also it is desireable to have system that last long, the tention between both stablity and perfection is difficult and stability so far is winning.
2020-11-25T19:20:51Z wasamasa looks at every single successful big project
2020-11-25T19:21:16Z amirouche: except xorg
2020-11-25T19:21:18Z wasamasa: no, emacs is not your average weekend project
2020-11-25T19:21:22Z Zipheir: Stability as far as the eye can see!
2020-11-25T19:22:04Z tatsumaru: there's a book called Crossing the Chasm that deals with the adoption cycle of new products. laggards prefer stability early adopters prefer innovation.
2020-11-25T19:22:26Z Zipheir: I wonder if the Emacs devs ever read C.A.R. Hoare's "The Emperor's Old Clothes".  He has some choice words for projects which can't fit in a single person's head.
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2020-11-25T19:25:32Z wasamasa: read emacs-devel and take an educated guess
2020-11-25T19:26:05Z wasamasa: for example the poorly articulated suggestion to switch to a more modern look got like a thousand replies
2020-11-25T19:26:35Z wasamasa: and several of those were revealing, like the suggestion to refuse any modernization measures because they'd turn outdated anyway
2020-11-25T19:27:39Z wasamasa: or when someone discussed to adjust the frame title format string, there was an objection because it would impede a workflow on lab machines running old emacs versions
2020-11-25T19:29:07Z Zipheir: Some of that is probably unavoidable, even with the best-designed of programs.
2020-11-25T19:29:32Z tatsumaru: well I think it's fine - emacs was built by certain people with certain beliefs. there are people who don't care about aesthetics and don't like change. the 1000 people that want a prettier emacs should band together and fork it.
2020-11-25T19:30:03Z tatsumaru: althought there's probably a nice looking emacs already like spacemacs or w/e
2020-11-25T19:30:07Z tatsumaru: although&
2020-11-25T19:30:10Z tatsumaru: *
2020-11-25T19:30:58Z wasamasa: I recently made the mistake to ask for the second time already why HTTPS can't be mandatory for the official package archive
2020-11-25T19:31:23Z wasamasa: because emacs uses the correct URL anyway depending on whether it supports HTTPS or not
2020-11-25T19:31:40Z wasamasa: however that ignored my question of figuring out how many HTTPS-incapable emacsen we're speaking of
2020-11-25T19:33:44Z amirouche: tatsumaru: exactly, that what I asked other guilers to build an emacs, but nobody helped.
2020-11-25T19:34:06Z tatsumaru: they should enforce https and remove compatibility with non-http sources IMO
2020-11-25T19:34:33Z tatsumaru: or at least issue a warning like browsers do
2020-11-25T19:34:56Z tatsumaru: amirouche - looks like they are not interested
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2020-11-25T19:35:19Z tatsumaru: aka the pain isn't strong enough or the value isn't sufficient
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2020-11-25T19:35:57Z Zipheir: Provided the packages are signed and verified, HTTPS vs HTTP is irrelevant.
2020-11-25T19:36:26Z Zipheir: OpenBSD fetches packages with FTP(!) and they're paranoid.
2020-11-25T19:36:43Z tatsumaru: Zipheir, what about protecting your traffic from your ISP
2020-11-25T19:37:18Z amirouche: tatsumaru: that discourse about early adopters vs. stability is taken from PG essay? because innovation is not always right, see aws, I have been spending 2 month on it, I do not see as of yet the added value.
2020-11-25T19:37:34Z amirouche: tatsumaru: they still know the domain.
2020-11-25T19:37:39Z Zipheir: I'm sure your ISP will be very interested to know that you use paredit.
2020-11-25T19:38:15Z amirouche: tatsumaru: I think a big part of success is "communication".
2020-11-25T19:38:26Z tatsumaru: Zipheir that's the "I've got nothing to hide" argument which isn't a good one. You want to be able to hide something when it's neccessary.
2020-11-25T19:38:54Z tatsumaru: Plus your ISP isn't the only third part that can listen in on your traffic.
2020-11-25T19:39:35Z Zipheir: Indeed.  I'm saying there's absolutely no reason to encrypt package-fetching traffic.
2020-11-25T19:39:58Z Zipheir: It's not marketable data, and unlikely to be politically-sensitive in the slightest.
2020-11-25T19:41:33Z Zipheir: Note that I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an option to use TLS.  But forcing it is unnecessary.
2020-11-25T19:41:59Z tatsumaru: my point is that just because something doesn't need to be hidden now, doesn't mean it will always be like that. maybe one day Bill Gates becomes the president and he forbids open source software.
2020-11-25T19:42:01Z Zipheir: And makes life difficult for people with older machines or TLS implementations.
2020-11-25T19:43:14Z Zipheir: (a) The president of the US can't do that, (b) MS loves FOSS these days!  (Sort of.)
2020-11-25T19:43:47Z tatsumaru: I am just entertaining alternative notions.
2020-11-25T19:44:08Z Zipheir: I think I understand your point, and, with many things, I agree.
2020-11-25T19:45:05Z Zipheir: e.g. reading news sites, Wikipedia, books, etc. can be very political, depending where you are.
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2020-11-25T19:45:34Z tatsumaru: amirouche - if by communication you mean persuasion and sales skills - I agree to a certain degree it matters, but in my experience the strongest factor is feedback and product-market fit. essentially you can't convince people to want something, you can only appeal to the desires they already have. certainly you can do a great and poor job at presenting your idea though.
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2020-11-25T19:47:08Z Irvise[m]: Just chiming in to the emacs conversation. As far as I know, Guile emacs has been abandoned for years.
2020-11-25T19:47:56Z Irvise[m]: The "new hot topic" is jitting elisp with gccjit. There was a presentation about it... somewhere (I will look for it). And everybody seems to like it for now.
2020-11-25T19:48:17Z Irvise[m]: And the early results seem to indicate it is a good step in the right direction.
2020-11-25T19:48:46Z Irvise[m]: If gccjit present, then use it. Otherwise default to the current interpreter
2020-11-25T19:49:14Z aeth: This was also a thing last year, but idk if anything came from it. https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/36659403/
2020-11-25T19:49:45Z wasamasa: the lone dev working on guilemacs for several GSoC episodes has been employed to hack on JS engines instead
2020-11-25T19:49:50Z wasamasa: and might come back soonish
2020-11-25T19:49:58Z wasamasa: they occasionally show up on #emacs
2020-11-25T19:50:11Z Irvise[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKHYZOAc_bQ from this year. There is also a blog about how the project has been going. Let me look for it.
2020-11-25T19:50:32Z wasamasa: needless to say they're not entertaining the idea of gccjit stealing their thunder :D
2020-11-25T19:51:13Z tatsumaru: guilemacs isn't a really good name either.
2020-11-25T19:51:33Z Irvise[m]: Here is the blog/status: http://akrl.sdf.org/gccemacs.html
2020-11-25T19:52:12Z tatsumaru: If only emacs had a decent text editor
2020-11-25T19:52:35Z Irvise[m]: The slides for those who prefer text over dynamicly changing RGB values: https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/static/2020/corallo-nassi-manca-slides.pdf
2020-11-25T19:53:31Z aeth: tatsumaru: M-x term RET RET vim RET
2020-11-25T19:54:34Z Irvise[m]: tatsumaru: give spaceemacs or doom a try, I really mean it.
2020-11-25T19:56:23Z tatsumaru: aeth, don't have experience with vim, I will try it some day
2020-11-25T19:56:44Z tatsumaru: Irvise[m] there is an emacs called doom?
2020-11-25T19:57:31Z amirouche: tatsumaru: try to convince a pythonista to use scheme, let's imagine the conversation, "me/you: python is slow; pythonista: there cython, ctypes, blas..."
2020-11-25T19:57:52Z Irvise[m]: tatsumaru: only if you are willing to go down the rabbit hole https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs
2020-11-25T19:58:08Z tatsumaru: you don't convince the pythonistas to use scheme, you convince the people asking for a python alternative to use scheme
2020-11-25T20:00:14Z tatsumaru: Irvise[m] what is your opinion of spacemacs and doom?
2020-11-25T20:00:42Z amirouche: #t
2020-11-25T20:03:07Z tatsumaru: btw is there a team behind scheme at current time? e.g. is R8 something that could happen?
2020-11-25T20:03:32Z Zipheir: There are many more interesting reasons to promote Scheme to Python fans than "it's faster than Python".  (Also, plenty of Schemes aren't.)
2020-11-25T20:03:42Z Irvise[m]: tatusmaru: I have tried them both, but I am not a user. Summary: good, pretty good. They bring most of what is best from both editors (emacs and vi) together. I think they are the perfect bait to bring vim users into the emas ecosystem
2020-11-25T20:03:48Z Zipheir: We're still working on R7!
2020-11-25T20:04:21Z tatsumaru: so it's maintained by the community?
2020-11-25T20:04:21Z amirouche: my take on R8, it will be more smooth transition, even if R7 was/is smooth.
2020-11-25T20:04:27Z amirouche: yes
2020-11-25T20:04:53Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: Arthur Gleckler, Alex Shinn, and John Cowan are the heads of R7.
2020-11-25T20:04:59Z Irvise[m]: Zipheir: faster than python? Really? There are a ton of high performance python implementations out there, I don't think they will accept it as an argument. Plus there is that good looking fractal out there (Julia)
2020-11-25T20:05:38Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: The R7RS-small PDF has a full list of folks: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-spec/blob/errata/spec/r7rs.pdf
2020-11-25T20:06:03Z Zipheir: Irvise[m]: Relax, relax.  I was saying "Scheme is faster" is a *bad* argument.
2020-11-25T20:06:10Z tatsumaru: I think most people use Python because it's easy to learn as first language, has tons of libraries and is somewhat expressive.
2020-11-25T20:06:27Z Zipheir: I most certainly recall our attempts to beat Python's hash-table performance with SRFI 69.
2020-11-25T20:06:36Z Irvise[m]: Zipheir: my bad
2020-11-25T20:07:12Z Zipheir: Speed is irrelevant unless it's (a) carefully quantified and (b) used as a means to do something important.
2020-11-25T20:08:13Z Irvise[m]: tatusmaru: I would add also the teaching side of things. Whatever you may want to do, there is a clear video/course/blog detailing how to do it in python. It is everywher
2020-11-25T20:08:52Z Zipheir: Even at MIT, since they've stopped using SICP.
2020-11-25T20:09:04Z tatsumaru: MIT has fallen
2020-11-25T20:09:26Z Irvise[m]: Zipheir: want to hear a joke: HPC Python. The joke is on us, because it is a thing. Here I am using HPC as a useful/important thing.
2020-11-25T20:09:42Z tatsumaru: what is HPC
2020-11-25T20:10:15Z amirouche: High Performance Computing
2020-11-25T20:10:18Z Irvise[m]: High Performance Computing. Think of PCs that cost >10M$
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2020-11-25T20:10:27Z tatsumaru: don't they use fortran on that stuff?
2020-11-25T20:10:52Z amirouche: I want to see those HPC projects: "just throw more hardware at the problem'
2020-11-25T20:11:13Z Irvise[m]: tatsumaru: mostly C, C++ and Fortran. Julia is entering the scene. And there are always a bunch of glue languages, think of shell
2020-11-25T20:11:41Z amirouche: yeah, one of the strong argument for python is the easy bindings with those
2020-11-25T20:11:45Z amirouche: and also existing libs
2020-11-25T20:11:52Z amirouche: lot of those
2020-11-25T20:15:20Z amirouche: tatsumaru: did you read my drive link from earlier?
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2020-11-25T20:16:16Z tatsumaru: Was it on Google Drive?
2020-11-25T20:16:54Z amirouche: tatsumaru: an article about my search engine
2020-11-25T20:17:00Z amirouche: tatsumaru: yes
2020-11-25T20:17:08Z amirouche: I can post on my blog
2020-11-25T20:17:08Z tatsumaru: I try not to use Google services to be honest, but I will make an exception, please post it again.
2020-11-25T20:17:18Z amirouche: I will post it on my blog
2020-11-25T20:19:16Z wasamasa: why a federated search engine though
2020-11-25T20:19:30Z amirouche: tatsumaru: https://hyper.dev/Tips%20for%20a%20search%20engine.pdf
2020-11-25T20:19:31Z wasamasa: I take it you've read Drew Devault's rant on the topic
2020-11-25T20:19:36Z amirouche: wasamasa: no
2020-11-25T20:19:40Z amirouche: what is it?
2020-11-25T20:19:49Z amirouche: they say it can not work because too much load?
2020-11-25T20:19:55Z wasamasa: https://drewdevault.com/2020/11/17/Better-than-DuckDuckGo.html
2020-11-25T20:20:04Z amirouche: yes, I read that.
2020-11-25T20:20:13Z amirouche: I replied to him
2020-11-25T20:20:32Z wasamasa: so what's the solution?
2020-11-25T20:21:06Z amirouche: the point a) in https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/public-inbox/%3C50ccff96d2c8f76177e2c81256116e87%40hyper.dev%3E
2020-11-25T20:21:21Z amirouche: the solution is to ask the user where to search, like ddg does with bangs
2020-11-25T20:21:27Z wasamasa: ugh
2020-11-25T20:21:29Z amirouche: somewhat like ddg
2020-11-25T20:21:59Z amirouche: the instance will figure which instance is the most relevant, and only ask to submit the query to those
2020-11-25T20:22:56Z wasamasa: that reads as if it magnifies the issue of different search users getting different results
2020-11-25T20:23:25Z tatsumaru: amirouche I read it, aren't all those features available on Google already?
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2020-11-25T20:24:04Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-25T20:24:11Z wasamasa: the idea is to have an alternative to it
2020-11-25T20:24:22Z wasamasa: one that doesn't suck as much as ddg
2020-11-25T20:24:29Z tatsumaru: startpage.com?
2020-11-25T20:24:39Z wasamasa: one that people can actually trust and run themselves
2020-11-25T20:24:50Z amirouche: yes
2020-11-25T20:24:58Z amirouche: tatsumaru: yes
2020-11-25T20:25:24Z amirouche: except they can trust babelia :)
2020-11-25T20:25:44Z amirouche: forwarding search queries to every know instances is not good.
2020-11-25T20:26:00Z amirouche: it is a waste of time and energy
2020-11-25T20:26:46Z wasamasa: sure, but what else is federation supposed to synchronize
2020-11-25T20:27:02Z tatsumaru: btw you might already know this, but Larry's vision for creating Google was to create an input field that users can use to teach his AI.
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2020-11-25T20:27:34Z amirouche: tatsumaru: that is the wrong ui for an AI, a slack interface is better
2020-11-25T20:28:08Z amirouche: wasamasa: the federation synchronize a summary of the content of each instance that is a leaderboard of wikipedia vital aritcle categories
2020-11-25T20:28:10Z Zipheir: amirouche: I think it's difficult to sell things on "trust", unless your customers are people who understand what that might actually mean.
2020-11-25T20:28:36Z wasamasa: amirouche: well, that doesn't seem to help much
2020-11-25T20:28:55Z tatsumaru: you can sell them on control, not trust.
2020-11-25T20:28:58Z wasamasa: amirouche: all you end up exchanging is a guide which instance might be interesting to you
2020-11-25T20:29:00Z Zipheir: amirouche: Someone with no concept of data collection or web models doesn't have much reason to trust a federated service over a monolithic one.  Unless they trust *you*.
2020-11-25T20:29:02Z amirouche: Zipheir: yes, sure, but it also gives freedom to experiment with the software, at the moment there is really one search engine: elastic search (java) and possibly sphinx (c++)
2020-11-25T20:29:25Z amirouche: +1 tatsumaru
2020-11-25T20:29:53Z Zipheir: That seems reasonable.
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2020-11-25T20:30:10Z amirouche: wasamasa: yes, but instances will (!) be matched based on the query you submit
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2020-11-25T20:30:46Z amirouche: you do not necessarly need to choose a particular instance, well it depends on what regular search you do, but you can always request to forward the query to someone else
2020-11-25T20:30:48Z tatsumaru: amirouche for this to succeed it has to be much better than DDG, if it's only slightly better, it won't achieve traction.
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2020-11-25T20:31:13Z amirouche: tatsumaru: i bet many would like to be able to fiddle with a search engine
2020-11-25T20:31:29Z wasamasa: well, few people like to fiddle with databases or mail servers
2020-11-25T20:31:51Z amirouche: tatsumaru: also I do not plan to make living from this, I want to solve other problem. It just a way to have foot among the big players.
2020-11-25T20:32:04Z tatsumaru: you should probably talk to the people you are building this for instead of guessing what they want.
2020-11-25T20:32:16Z tatsumaru: or as Steve Blank says "Get out of the building"
2020-11-25T20:32:28Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-25T20:32:39Z amirouche: yeah, but I am building this for me. And as soon as I say "Scheme" people close the window :D
2020-11-25T20:32:54Z wasamasa: of course, it means they can't get it easily running
2020-11-25T20:32:58Z amirouche: people use Java. period.
2020-11-25T20:33:08Z amirouche: or Python.
2020-11-25T20:33:11Z amirouche: or C.
2020-11-25T20:33:25Z tatsumaru: people use Java because there's a reason to use Java, that's all.
2020-11-25T20:33:47Z amirouche: not really, 9to5 dev do not look for the best, they just get a way with the money.
2020-11-25T20:33:51Z tatsumaru: if your search engine is so good, they will use scheme too.
2020-11-25T20:34:02Z amirouche: maybe...
2020-11-25T20:34:21Z amirouche: there is not a single factor to say "it will succeed or not"
2020-11-25T20:34:33Z amirouche: s/factor/reason/
2020-11-25T20:35:02Z tatsumaru: well one of the red flags is that you are considering this to be a side project
2020-11-25T20:35:10Z amirouche: tatsumaru: sure
2020-11-25T20:35:19Z amirouche: tatsumaru: why is it a red flag?
2020-11-25T20:36:15Z wasamasa: remind me, how many years did it take google to become a search engine worth using
2020-11-25T20:36:25Z wasamasa: how many years of full time work
2020-11-25T20:36:31Z amirouche: tatsumaru: it is a side project because I have a day job. Otherwise, that is my primary side project
2020-11-25T20:36:40Z amirouche: wasamasa: that was 20 years ago.
2020-11-25T20:36:44Z tatsumaru: because startups and innovation are hard as hell even as full-time projects, let alone as side projects.
2020-11-25T20:37:22Z amirouche: that is not innovation. mastodon was a side-project, if I can be as successful as mastdon I will be happy, even if I need to continue to maintain babelia.
2020-11-25T20:37:54Z tatsumaru: wasamasa Google was almost always better than the competition. back in the days the competitors used to manually add websites like a directory, someone else came up with an algorithmic approach that sucked and Google had PageRank which was the most accurate measure of website authority.
2020-11-25T20:37:55Z amirouche: all those ideas I describe in the pdf, are existing algorithm, it innovates in the sense it will be floss but that is all.
2020-11-25T20:38:19Z Zipheir: It seems to be massive, partially unspecified project without clear modules.
2020-11-25T20:38:37Z wasamasa: let's say 3 years
2020-11-25T20:38:51Z amirouche: Zipheir: they are clear modules (in my head).
2020-11-25T20:39:08Z Zipheir: amirouche: Is SRFI 167 supposed to be one of them?
2020-11-25T20:39:13Z amirouche: Zipheir: yes
2020-11-25T20:39:14Z wasamasa: dunno about you, but I don't stick to a side project for 3 years
2020-11-25T20:39:47Z amirouche: Zipheir: and SRFI-168 (nstore) and the version nstore along the Common Crawl Search engine that I prototyped earlier in september
2020-11-25T20:39:50Z wasamasa: this is going from them starting in 1996 and a 1999 screenshot
2020-11-25T20:40:12Z amirouche: wasamasa: it is been more than 5 years that I explore this idea
2020-11-25T20:40:22Z Zipheir: I think wasamasa said that some of the SRFI 167/168 work had been nuked or something?
2020-11-25T20:40:23Z wasamasa: sure, but nowhere near full time
2020-11-25T20:40:34Z amirouche: not full time indeed
2020-11-25T20:40:48Z amirouche: Zipheir: no?
2020-11-25T20:40:58Z tatsumaru: amirouche if you are building a new search engine you want to have the goal of making the best damn search engine. The main reason why Tesla became successful is not because they are electric, it's because it's the best damn car. So if your market is privacy respecting search engines, make the best damn privacy respecting search engine, otherwise what's the point?
2020-11-25T20:40:59Z amirouche: They are some bugs
2020-11-25T20:41:00Z wasamasa: some repositories have been
2020-11-25T20:41:14Z wasamasa: for example I've found one pointing towards guile-wiredtiger and so on and that was gone
2020-11-25T20:41:26Z amirouche: wasamasa: yes that is guile aftermath
2020-11-25T20:41:34Z wasamasa: same with repositories on sourcehut
2020-11-25T20:41:54Z Zipheir: amirouche: "<wasamasa> ... doesn't exactly consider it usable and threw away most of the repositories holding anything tangible to play with"
2020-11-25T20:42:05Z amirouche: :D
2020-11-25T20:42:09Z wasamasa: don't worry, I'll continue with my okvs explorations next week or so
2020-11-25T20:42:32Z wasamasa: I'm just incredulous that I seem to be the first one other than the author bothering to implement the SRFIs
2020-11-25T20:42:34Z amirouche: tatsumaru: I do not worry too much about privacy, I want a personal search engine that anybody can host.
2020-11-25T20:43:02Z tatsumaru: doesn't Tor solve that indirectly?
2020-11-25T20:43:07Z amirouche: I mean privacy respecting is too broad
2020-11-25T20:43:10Z wasamasa: https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/chez-scheme-arew/tree/master/src/cffi/wiredtiger/okvs-test.scm is one of those other broken links
2020-11-25T20:43:26Z amirouche: you made a good research X')
2020-11-25T20:43:54Z amirouche: tatsumaru: if you self-host the search engine, what privacy concerns still exists?
2020-11-25T20:43:59Z wasamasa: yeah, I wonder sometimes whether I shouldn't have bothered going into osint instead of pentesting
2020-11-25T20:44:16Z Zipheir: amirouche: Oh, so you did nuke a bunch of related repos?
2020-11-25T20:44:21Z amirouche: Zipheir: yes
2020-11-25T20:44:43Z amirouche: Zipheir: I even nuked babelia at somepoint (https://github.com/amirouche/babelia)
2020-11-25T20:44:48Z Zipheir: Why?  Especially since the thing was published as a SRFI.
2020-11-25T20:44:59Z amirouche: Zipheir: the sample implementation is in SRFI repo
2020-11-25T20:45:12Z tatsumaru: btw what is SRFI
2020-11-25T20:45:15Z Zipheir: Yeah, fortunately.
2020-11-25T20:45:17Z wasamasa: it does seem a bit weird, considering that one of the core internet principles is to avoid linkrot
2020-11-25T20:45:35Z wasamasa: keeping up original urls with rewrite rules or whatever it takes
2020-11-25T20:45:37Z amirouche: Once I nuked a repo with 600 stars on github x)
2020-11-25T20:45:39Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: https://srfi.schemers.org/  They're like RFCs for Scheme.
2020-11-25T20:46:08Z amirouche: last time the max was 80
2020-11-25T20:46:19Z wasamasa: and that principle is what enables search engines to function
2020-11-25T20:46:28Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: The SRFIs act as a sort of standard library for Scheme.  Many have been added to R7RS-large.
2020-11-25T20:46:57Z tatsumaru: oh I see, and what does it mean when it has a number next to it?
2020-11-25T20:47:12Z amirouche: wasamasa: those repos contain old code btw, it is not very interesting.
2020-11-25T20:47:18Z Zipheir: Like "SRFI 9"?
2020-11-25T20:47:21Z tatsumaru: yeah
2020-11-25T20:47:43Z Zipheir: It's just a number given to each published proposal for bookkeeping.
2020-11-25T20:48:01Z tatsumaru: i see, thanks
2020-11-25T20:48:28Z wasamasa: amirouche: alright, I'll go and vandalize some museums because they contain old art, not very interesting
2020-11-25T20:49:04Z Zipheir: amirouche: I mean, it seems hard for people to want to start using or working on a project if its repos have, in the past, disappeared overnight.
2020-11-25T20:50:15Z tatsumaru: wasamasa = not everything that is old is worth having in a museum
2020-11-25T20:50:26Z tatsumaru: not sure why I used the equals sign
2020-11-25T20:51:04Z tatsumaru: i hope I didn't assign my opinion to you
2020-11-25T20:51:09Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-25T20:51:18Z amirouche: Zipheir: sure, I understand, i regret but that is the way it is.
2020-11-25T20:53:14Z wasamasa: this reminds me of this other highly controversial figure from an entirely different scene pulling similar stunts
2020-11-25T20:53:33Z wasamasa: publishing some spec, retracting it, redoing the whole website so that it's gone, loop
2020-11-25T20:53:55Z tatsumaru: is it still true that lisp/scheme is way more expressive/powerful than other programming languages?
2020-11-25T20:54:17Z wasamasa: depends what you're trying to express
2020-11-25T20:54:20Z Zipheir: You'd need some way of measuring expressivity.
2020-11-25T20:54:34Z tatsumaru: isn't it measured in lines of code needed to achieve result?
2020-11-25T20:54:37Z wasamasa: lol
2020-11-25T20:54:46Z amirouche: that is PG take on PLT
2020-11-25T20:54:47Z wasamasa: in that metric C can beat lisp depending on the problem
2020-11-25T20:55:07Z Zipheir: But functional languages do usually avoid the word-at-a-time paradigm of languages like C.
2020-11-25T20:55:49Z Zipheir: You can't express something like (fold f b (filter p (append xs ys))) in anything like the same amount of space in C.
2020-11-25T20:56:11Z wasamasa: you can express memory slinging and bit fiddling very elegantly though
2020-11-25T20:56:26Z Zipheir: If such things can be expressed elegantly at all :)
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2020-11-25T20:56:34Z wasamasa: compared to lisp, yes
2020-11-25T20:56:49Z wasamasa: looking at emulator code for example elisp has been a terrible choice
2020-11-25T20:57:10Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: John Hughes has a classic essay about this kind of expressivity: https://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/dat/miranda/whyfp90.pdf
2020-11-25T20:57:15Z amirouche: scheme: (filter p (append xs ys)) -> python: [x for y in xs + ys if p(x)] the fold is not part of python list comprehension caps
2020-11-25T20:57:56Z Zipheir: amirouche: Python has absorbed some ideas from functional and relational programming, e.g. comprehensions.
2020-11-25T20:58:15Z amirouche: relational programming? like what?
2020-11-25T20:58:23Z wasamasa: the problem I see is that lisp implementations rest on their laurels
2020-11-25T20:58:30Z Zipheir: amirouche: In a classic imperative language, you'll be doing that by explicit iteration and assignment, i.e. word-at-a-time.
2020-11-25T20:58:43Z wasamasa: sure, you can bask in former glory and keep claiming you're the best, but eventually the tortoise is going to catch up with you
2020-11-25T20:58:48Z amirouche: I am not familiar with "a word at a time"
2020-11-25T20:58:50Z tatsumaru: wasamasa, no one is evolving them
2020-11-25T20:58:58Z wasamasa: a few try though
2020-11-25T20:59:16Z amirouche: they are some evolution since 1990 or 2000 still
2020-11-25T20:59:20Z wasamasa: for example clojure had a good attempt at fixing several issues its author had with using CL in production
2020-11-25T20:59:23Z Zipheir: amirouche: The fundamental operations of imperative programming are: store a word, read a word.
2020-11-25T20:59:32Z wasamasa: and giving it extra usability
2020-11-25T20:59:49Z Zipheir: amirouche: When you do *anything* in C, you're thinking in terms of reading and writing words.
2020-11-25T20:59:54Z wasamasa: unfortunately that went in hand with acquiring java ergonomics :<
2020-11-25T21:00:33Z amirouche: Zipheir: maybe, I do think that way, but I do not practice much C.
2020-11-25T21:00:40Z Zipheir: amirouche: The great thing about Lisp and its descendents is you don't have to decompose algorithms into storing and reading words.
2020-11-25T21:01:00Z amirouche: tatsumaru: if you want to know if scheme / lisp can do more than python the answer is yes, but how many times it will take you is a big ?
2020-11-25T21:01:27Z Zipheir: amirouche: This is a great paper which you and everyone else should read: https://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf
2020-11-25T21:01:44Z amirouche: tatsumaru: the library ecosystem in Python / Java etc... is so powerful.
2020-11-25T21:01:57Z Zipheir: The title says everything: "Can Programming Be Liberated From a Von Neumann Style?"
2020-11-25T21:02:07Z amirouche: tx!
2020-11-25T21:02:19Z wasamasa: some other lisps I've learned a bunch from are picolisp and txr
2020-11-25T21:02:33Z wasamasa: they show how far you can go with regards to brevity and other tricks to keep scripts short
2020-11-25T21:03:09Z amirouche: tatsumaru: I came to scheme because of GIL in Python and to Chez because of performance, you might have noticed not everybody agree with me.
2020-11-25T21:03:30Z amirouche: (performance and other things)
2020-11-25T21:03:32Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: cf. the link above.  Backus's lecture has a *lot* to say about expressivity.
2020-11-25T21:03:47Z tatsumaru: I have opened the link, will read it
2020-11-25T21:04:52Z tatsumaru: PG used to say that expressivity is important because you can add new features faster than your competitors which is very important in competitive systems.
2020-11-25T21:05:01Z amirouche: like for doing machine learning purpose you will need something like tensorflow, that does not exist in any scheme I know but is readily availabe in python and prolly julia
2020-11-25T21:05:26Z amirouche: yes, but python beat scheme because of the ecosystem.
2020-11-25T21:05:34Z wasamasa: I'm mildly curious how a lisp would look like where you the auto-completable object.method syntax instead of (object-function object)
2020-11-25T21:05:42Z wasamasa: dylan??
2020-11-25T21:06:13Z wasamasa: and more generic functions instead of specialized everything
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2020-11-25T21:06:36Z wasamasa: with the common cases being optimized for instead of maximal elegance or performance
2020-11-25T21:06:43Z amirouche: tatsumaru: also, it depends how you structure your program, I read Django code is mess, but since we keep trying it is eventually working
2020-11-25T21:07:21Z amirouche: (I work with Django, and Django code bases tends to be mess, but everything in production seems to follow that mantra)
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2020-11-25T21:49:46Z tatsumaru: read somewhere that back in the days there was a prolog vs lisp competition for the AI field and prolog ultimately lost.
2020-11-25T21:50:09Z tatsumaru: is prolog a stupid language?
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2020-11-25T21:51:43Z Zipheir: What kind of question is that?
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2020-11-25T21:52:02Z tatsumaru: Sorry, I guess that was a lame question.
2020-11-25T21:52:34Z Zipheir: Prolog is a beautiful language, IMHO, although it has some limitations.  You can't get more expressive than relational languages.
2020-11-25T21:52:45Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: Are you familiar with miniKanren?
2020-11-25T21:53:03Z tatsumaru: heard someone mention it here a few days ago but I am not sure what it is
2020-11-25T21:53:17Z Zipheir: Prolog-like language embedded in Scheme.
2020-11-25T21:53:39Z Zipheir: http://minikanren.org/
2020-11-25T21:55:03Z amirouche: i never succeed at doing anything useful with minikanren or prolog
2020-11-25T21:55:15Z amirouche: You can do things, but...
2020-11-25T21:55:27Z Zipheir: In the 1980s, the Japanese government was planning an entire computing ecosystem based on relational languages.  They succeeded in a lot of ways, although the mainstream programming world went in different directions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer
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2020-11-25T21:56:56Z Zipheir: Interestingly, they faced a choice of Lisp vs. Prolog, and chose Prolog.
2020-11-25T21:58:12Z tatsumaru: that was a pretty ambitious project.
2020-11-25T21:59:24Z Zipheir: They produced some impressive results: Native logic programming hardware and kernels.  Where it got hard was the natural language processing which they intended would be the main interface to these systems.
2020-11-25T22:01:03Z tatsumaru: if it's well suited to process languages, shouldn't that make it primary choice for content analysis, translation and chatbots/
2020-11-25T22:01:53Z Zipheir: The kind of goal-solving approach of Lisp and Prolog AI experiments is, I think, totally different from current reseach in AI.
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2020-11-25T22:02:30Z Zipheir: That's a good question, however.
2020-11-25T22:08:22Z tatsumaru: SWI Prolog seems to be regularly updated
2020-11-25T22:09:33Z Riastradh: Neither of them has much to do with the present-day conception of `AI', which is usually a euphemism for multi-layer neural networks computed on Google or Amazon servers, or on dedicated coprocessors.
2020-11-25T22:11:23Z Zipheir: swipl development is pretty active, yes.
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2020-11-25T22:18:36Z tatsumaru:  /j #mercury
2020-11-25T22:18:44Z tatsumaru: ...
2020-11-25T22:18:50Z ski: (there's also a ##prolog channel)
2020-11-25T22:22:01Z Zipheir: If you want a pretty awesome introduction to the topic, Spivey's made his book available for $0: https://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/wiki/files/logprog/logic.pdf
2020-11-25T22:26:20Z Zipheir: As mentioned, The Reasoned Schemer is also great, and shows how a relational language can be built up from functional foundations.
2020-11-25T22:26:20Z tatsumaru: thanks, I will take a look
2020-11-25T22:26:37Z Zipheir: (As does SICP.)
2020-11-25T22:26:44Z tatsumaru: are these paradigms still relevant today?
2020-11-25T22:26:57Z Zipheir: Relevant to whom?
2020-11-25T22:28:26Z imode: anything that can add expressivity to your programming should be relevant.
2020-11-25T22:29:15Z tatsumaru: So learning prolog can make you a better programmer?
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2020-11-25T22:29:50Z imode: learning anything you don't know can make you a better individual.
2020-11-25T22:30:10Z Zipheir: If you haven't learned a relational language, do so, because it will change how you think about programming.
2020-11-25T22:31:03Z Zipheir: You can, as SICP says, "make the leap from imperative to declarative knowledge".
2020-11-25T22:31:58Z Zipheir: (To some extent.  Some times the illusion breaks.)
2020-11-25T22:32:06Z tatsumaru: Is lisp/scheme also relational?
2020-11-25T22:32:14Z Zipheir: No.
2020-11-25T22:32:33Z Zipheir: Well, some Scheme procedures are relations.
2020-11-25T22:32:51Z imode: considering everything is "imperative but with some flavor", the illusion will break quite often. but then you see everything is built up from some common basis and start realizing that the universe of programming knowledge is much larger than you realized.
2020-11-25T22:33:05Z ski . o O ( "Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming", by Peter Van Roy,Seif Haridi, at <https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/book.html> )
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2020-11-25T22:33:57Z Zipheir: But the notion of a relational language is that programs are logical propositions.  Append in Scheme is (append xs ys), whereas in prolog it's append(xs, ys, zs), a proposition which is true if zs is the concatenation of xs and ys.
2020-11-25T22:34:08Z Zipheir: imode: Who says everything is imperative?
2020-11-25T22:35:23Z imode: reality.
2020-11-25T22:35:37Z Zipheir: Is the λ-calculus imperative?
2020-11-25T22:35:54Z Zipheir: Is first-order logic imperative?
2020-11-25T22:36:22Z Zipheir: Are we, in fact, sure that the universe is imperative?
2020-11-25T22:36:27Z tatsumaru: do you have an easy way to type the symbol λ?
2020-11-25T22:36:38Z ski: physics doesn't appear to have much place for discrete update-in-place (assignment/mutation)
2020-11-25T22:37:28Z imode: not in the mood for argument, but feel free to show me a non-imperative processor.
2020-11-25T22:37:30Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: It's going to depend on your system.  I'm using the X compose key.
2020-11-25T22:37:38Z tatsumaru: isn't imperative just a way of saying deterministic?
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2020-11-25T22:38:12Z Zipheir: imode: *Implementations* may be imperative.  That doesn't mean that languages ar.
2020-11-25T22:38:18Z Zipheir: are, even.
2020-11-25T22:38:54Z ski: (there's a difference between reasoning at the level of a language, and reasoning at a possible implementation level of that language)
2020-11-25T22:39:10Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: "Imperative" usually means an approach to programming driven by assignment.
2020-11-25T22:39:40Z tatsumaru: I was just curious what he meant by "reality is imperative"
2020-11-25T22:39:51Z ski doesn't know
2020-11-25T22:40:03Z Zipheir: Reality appears to us to be mutable.
2020-11-25T22:40:10Z Zipheir: SICP talks a *lot* about this.
2020-11-25T22:40:28Z ski: (continuously mutable. and computable, it seems)
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2020-11-25T22:41:35Z tatsumaru: I don't agree with the computable part
2020-11-25T22:42:04Z Zipheir: If the Church-Turing thesis continues to hold, it *is* computable.
2020-11-25T22:42:29Z tatsumaru: Do you believe the universe is deterministic?
2020-11-25T22:43:45Z Zipheir: (But "computable" doesn't mean that all those computation metheds have termination guarantees.)
2020-11-25T22:43:52Z Zipheir: s/metheds/methods/
2020-11-25T22:44:46Z ski . o O ( "Intuitionistic mathematics for physics" by Andrej Bauer in 2008-08-13 at <http://math.andrej.com/2008/08/13/intuitionistic-mathematics-for-physics/> ; "The Arithmetic Hierarchy Meets the Real World" by Michael K. O'Connor in 2016-05-14 at <https://xorshammer.com/2016/05/14/the-arithmetic-hierarchy-meets-the-real-world/> )
2020-11-25T22:44:58Z Zipheir: The real point about "imperative languages", though, is not that they *allow* mutation, but that programming with them means using mutation to do most everything.
2020-11-25T22:45:55Z Zipheir: ski: Ooh, interesting.
2020-11-25T22:46:17Z ski: ("Do you believe the universe is deterministic?" -- i don't think i understand what "deterministic" is supposed to mean enough, to be able to answer)
2020-11-25T22:46:19Z Zipheir: ski: Have you read this one? https://books.google.com/books/about/Computation_Proof_Machine.html?id=MU4QCAAAQBAJ
2020-11-25T22:46:48Z ski: nope
2020-11-25T22:47:24Z tatsumaru: never heard of the term intuitionistic
2020-11-25T22:47:39Z ski: "intuitionistic/constructive logic"
2020-11-25T22:47:54Z Zipheir: Very important ideas for computation.
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2020-11-25T22:49:26Z Zipheir: Wadler's talk is a fun way to start seeing what it has to do with programming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOiZatlZtGU
2020-11-25T22:49:36Z tatsumaru: CS has evolved so much it's crazy
2020-11-25T22:49:47Z ski: most (in)famous for non-acceptance of "Either X, or not X.". insists on proofs of existence to give a method that (at least in principle) can be used to compute an example of what was shown to be existing. focuses on "proofs as evidence", what is *known* to a reasoner, rather than "what is true, out there", regardless of our ability to ascertain it, one way of the other
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2020-11-25T22:51:47Z ski: the intuitionistic interpretation of "Either X, or not X." is "We can decide, whether X holds, or whether not X holds.". because of the halting problem, we don't have hope of being able to do this, for arbitrary "X"s
2020-11-25T22:52:20Z tatsumaru: lol
2020-11-25T22:53:17Z tatsumaru: logic's attempt to replace creativity is funny
2020-11-25T22:53:29Z Zipheir: Surprisingly, getting rid of the Law of Excluded Middle opened up an incredible range of possibilities.
2020-11-25T22:53:34Z Zipheir: tatsumaru: wat
2020-11-25T22:53:37Z ski: intuitionistic logic is a logic of problems (where proofs are solutions). reducing a problem `B' to a problem `A' amounts to solving the implication problem `A => B' ("If we had a method for solving `A', then we would get a method for solving `B'.")
2020-11-25T22:54:59Z ski: (and under the Curry-Howard correspondence, which Wadler talks about, logical formulae/propsitions corresponds to specifications, while proofs of them corresponds to implementations)
2020-11-25T22:56:04Z Zipheir: IOW, a well-typed program is a theorem, composed of its type (the proposition) and its body (the evidence).
2020-11-25T22:56:16Z Zipheir: evidence/proof.
2020-11-25T22:56:42Z tatsumaru: what is your educated guess regarding the p/np problem?
2020-11-25T22:57:20Z Zipheir: "Um... true.  Yeah, I'm gonna say 'true'." (Wheatley in Portal 2, solving Russell's Paradox)
2020-11-25T22:57:50Z tatsumaru: so you think P = NP?
2020-11-25T22:57:51Z ski: it's perhaps ironic that Brouwer, the founder of intuitionism (shortly after the start of the 1900s century, although there'd been precursors. arguably, most math, prior to the 1600s or so, had been constructive. Euclid certainly distinguishes between proofs and constructions, between propositions and problems (to solve)) was deeply suspicious of formal languages, and language in general
2020-11-25T22:58:55Z Zipheir: IIRC Brouwer even ended up questioning his own fixpoint theorems toward the end.
2020-11-25T22:59:35Z Zipheir: But, like Cantor, he had to endure a lot of unfortunate attacks.  e.g. "The Bolshevik menace of Brouwer", in some paper.
2020-11-25T23:00:00Z tatsumaru: Cantor invented set theory right?
2020-11-25T23:00:05Z Zipheir: That must have taken a serious psychological toll.
2020-11-25T23:00:30Z Zipheir: Cantor contributed a lot. I'm not sure you'd say he invented it.
2020-11-25T23:00:44Z ski: iirc, istr reading that most of the topology theorems he proved, could be proved constructively, at least with an appropriate phrasing of definitions. he got convinced early of intuitionism, afaik
2020-11-25T23:00:59Z Zipheir: WP attributes the invention of set theory to Cantor and Dedekind, so I guess that's right.
2020-11-25T23:01:56Z Zipheir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory#History
2020-11-25T23:02:34Z Zipheir: Set theory, however, was founded by a single paper in 1874 by Georg Cantor: "On a Property of the Collection of All Real Algebraic Numbers".
2020-11-25T23:02:47Z Zipheir: (WP)
2020-11-25T23:03:48Z ski . o O ( "How Dedekind Screwed Up a Hundred Years of Mathematics" by roconnor in 2005-12-10 at <http://r6.ca/blog/20051210T202900Z.html> )
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2020-11-25T23:07:06Z Zipheir: Hah, interesting.
2020-11-25T23:07:27Z Zipheir: "Unfortunately, the wrong side won, but I don’t think the war is over."  A constructivist partisan militant, I see.
2020-11-25T23:10:26Z ski . o O ( "Intensional vs Extensional Choice" by ibid in 2005-06-04 at <http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html> )
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2020-11-25T23:13:26Z ski . o O ( "On the Definition of Function" by ibid in 2006-04-10 at <http://r6.ca/blog/20060410T151200Z.html> )
2020-11-25T23:22:12Z Zipheir: I love the phrase "honest functions which serve some purpose".
2020-11-25T23:26:04Z tatsumaru: ski how do you know so many studies by heart
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2020-11-25T23:31:25Z ski: hm, studies ?
2020-11-25T23:31:33Z ski: i didn't link to any paper
2020-11-25T23:32:53Z ski: i guess i'm sometimes reminded of things i've encountered, and found interesting
2020-11-25T23:34:04Z ski: (dunno how that works .. at other times, my associative memory (specifically from abstract to concrete), and episodic memory, seems to be not that great)
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2020-11-25T23:52:46Z tatsumaru: When you say that Prolog is a relational language do you mean that in the same sense as in RDBMS?
2020-11-25T23:53:20Z jcowan: tatsumaru: Once you have downloaded a file you should assume that that key is skunked as far as your ISP is concerned.
2020-11-25T23:58:49Z jcowan: Yes, it is.
2020-11-25T23:59:17Z jcowan: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O5xgX3xup_hBHwaxwV_X0nHxOPH7INh9aaVVwhQqnMc (Bracey Prolog) is a dialect of Prolog that uses named rather than ordinal arguments.
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2020-11-26T00:01:24Z amirouche: great jcowan! now the new schemer is gone ;)
2020-11-26T00:05:52Z jcowan: Ah well
2020-11-26T00:06:41Z ski: ooh, that's cool, jcowan !
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2020-11-26T00:07:19Z jcowan: thx
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2020-11-26T00:11:13Z ski: from the POV of relational DB theory, it's, at least mostly, preferrable, to have named, rather than positional, attributes/arguments/parameters, describing the rolê that they play in the relation. so i've wondered why Datalog didn't have support for named (or for records, alternatively)
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2020-11-26T00:13:14Z ski: (iirc, one of Christopher Date's (and possibly The Third Manifesto's ?) criticism of SQL is that it allowed to specify attributes in a positional manner)
2020-11-26T00:14:41Z ski: (iiuc, inserting a bunch of positional rows/tuples, together with a header that gives a locally chosen order for the attributes, isn't a problem. but relying on a default order would be)
2020-11-26T00:17:07Z jcowan: yes on all points
2020-11-26T00:17:17Z jcowan: I love the relatioal algebra.
2020-11-26T00:18:12Z Riastradh: rolê?
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2020-11-26T00:20:42Z ski: er, sorry .. s/rolê/rôle/
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2020-11-26T00:22:50Z ski: "This means that rather than predicates of different arities being related only in the programmer's mind (if at all), each predicate name corresponds uniquely to just one predicate, any of whose arguments may or may not be present." -- reminds me of attribute grammars
2020-11-26T00:26:08Z jcowan: yes, indeed
2020-11-26T00:28:01Z ski: (not sure if i like "any maternal facts that do not have values for `Term' are not generated by the rule fore `preemie'.". and how's it related to CWA ?)
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2020-11-26T00:33:14Z ski . o O ( "Modelling Large Datasets Using Algebraic Datatypes: A Case Study of the CONFMAN Database" by Markus Mottl in 2002-05-15 at <http://www.ofai.at/cgi-bin/tr-online?number+2002-27>,<http://www.ofai.at/cgi-bin/get-tr?paper=oefai-tr-2002-27.pdf> )
2020-11-26T00:33:40Z ski . o O ( "Using Algebraic Datatypes as Uniform Representation for Structured Data" by Markus Mottl in 2003-03-07 at <http://www.ofai.at/cgi-bin/tr-online?number+2003-07>,<http://www.ofai.at/cgi-bin/get-tr?paper=oefai-tr-2003-07.pdf>,<http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.13.5712> )
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2020-11-26T00:51:24Z ski: (experience with positive utility of "empty concepts", and with monoids (rather that semigroups), suggests to me) i'd much rather include arity-0 terms and predicates, than exclude them (unless there's a clear positive reason for wanting to omit them), even if they appear to not be of that much use, at least in pure declarative Prolog. how about atoms/symbols like `alice', are these not (conceptually)
2020-11-26T00:51:30Z ski: interpreted as degenerate/trivial compound terms `alice{}' ?
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2020-11-26T01:08:50Z jcowan: They are included, and if there is a use case for DUM and DEE in a Prolog context, I'm happy to add it.  (DUM is the zero-attribute relation with no tuples and DEE is the one with a single tuple.)
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2020-11-26T01:11:05Z jcowan: The reason that facts/tuples without a Term attribute are omitted from the "Term < 25" rule is to avoid the horrors of SQL NULL.  If they are not omitted we are doing an outer join, whereas all other cases are inner joins as they should be.
2020-11-26T01:12:35Z jcowan: One use case, I guess, is that you want (true) relational databases to accept queries in both D-like and Bracey Prolog styles
2020-11-26T01:13:01Z ski: (yes, i remember Date mentioning `DEE' and `DUM'. in Prolog terms, those are known as `true' and `fail' (or `false'))
2020-11-26T01:14:16Z Riastradh: itym `reject the null hypothesis' and `fail to reject the null hypothesis' ftfy hth
2020-11-26T01:17:36Z ski: i guess i was more thinking in terms of what a rationale for allowing facts/tuples/rows of the same predicate/relation/table to not include exactly the same parameters/arguments/rôles/attributes/columns would be
2020-11-26T01:19:48Z ski: (but perhaps i misunderstood.) anyway, i think i follow what you're saying about that `preemie' example there. (and agree about outer joins being ugly, probably a mistake, or a mishap, possibly due to faulty or insufficiently exact representation)
2020-11-26T01:20:49Z ski: jcowan : by "D-like", do you mean like introducing tuple variables running over a relation, and only using projection notation on those tuples, rather than having the explicit record-like construction notation ?
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2020-11-26T02:57:11Z Zipheir: laertus: That's weird.
2020-11-26T02:57:23Z Zipheir: Sorry, ww.
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2020-11-26T03:44:14Z laertus: using r7rs procedures, is it possible for me to read in an entire file in to a single bytevector at once?
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2020-11-26T03:50:35Z Zipheir: laertus: Sure, using read-bytevector, and assuming the file length is known.
2020-11-26T03:51:37Z laertus: how do i find out the file length?
2020-11-26T03:51:39Z Zipheir: laertus: Possibly a better approach is to use a fixed-size buffer.
2020-11-26T03:52:27Z Zipheir: Getting the file size would be OS-specific.
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2020-11-26T03:54:22Z Zipheir: You probably wouldn't want to read all of an arbitrary file into a bytevector, since it might require all available memory and more.
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2020-11-26T03:56:22Z Zipheir: Eh, what am I saying?  That would be perfectly plausible for a text-editor.
2020-11-26T03:57:06Z Zipheir: Sorry, tunnel-vision.
2020-11-26T03:57:28Z mdhughes: But you don't normally store a text editor as a bytevector, maybe a growable vector of bytevector lines, or some smarter structure.
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2020-11-26T03:58:40Z laertus: i'm going to be reading midi files, so they're all going to be pretty tiny
2020-11-26T03:58:48Z laertus: on the order of kilobytes
2020-11-26T03:59:07Z laertus: i think even the old laptop i'm using could handle it :)
2020-11-26T03:59:56Z mdhughes: But yeah, file size (or generally `stat`) is sadly missing API even in Chez Scheme.
2020-11-26T04:00:26Z Zipheir: I guess the question is how you're going to represent the MIDI data.
2020-11-26T04:01:10Z laertus: that's a great question.. and i haven't gotten to that bridge yet
2020-11-26T04:01:45Z laertus: was hoping to just slurp in all the bytes first
2020-11-26T04:01:49Z Zipheir: I'd say solve that first, since that will determine what kind of input technique you'll use.
2020-11-26T04:02:32Z Zipheir: If you decide that a flat bytevector is the right representation, then that's what you'd do.
2020-11-26T04:02:34Z laertus: the thing is that there are all these different parts to a midi file
2020-11-26T04:02:44Z laertus: they're not all going to be in the same format
2020-11-26T04:04:34Z laertus: srfi-178 has all these great tools for dealing with bitvectors.. but you have to give it a bitvector to work with first
2020-11-26T04:04:49Z Zipheir: You might, e.g. want to represent the file as a sequence of MIDI events rather than flat binary data.
2020-11-26T04:05:20Z laertus: yeah, but even before the midi events i have to parse the header
2020-11-26T04:05:41Z Zipheir: Yeah, 178 originally have bytevector<-/->bitvector conversions, but they were pushed to a later SRFI.
2020-11-26T04:06:02Z Zipheir: That's easy.  The header should be a fixed size, or one of several fixed sizes.
2020-11-26T04:06:26Z Zipheir: (read-bytevector header-size)
2020-11-26T04:06:39Z laertus: assuming it's a valid midi file
2020-11-26T04:06:45Z laertus: that's yet another issue i have to deal with
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2020-11-26T04:07:02Z laertus: i thought that if i read it all in to a bytevector first, it'd be easy to then go and validate it
2020-11-26T04:07:15Z Zipheir: Most headers have magic strings which you can check.
2020-11-26T04:07:27Z laertus: but say it's not a valid file, and i try to read the header-size but it's too short
2020-11-26T04:07:41Z laertus: that's where i'd rather just read the whole file and validate it after
2020-11-26T04:08:40Z Zipheir: I'd suggest looking carefully at the file formats you want to parse.
2020-11-26T04:09:29Z Zipheir: You can probably reject a file based on just the first HEADER-LENGTH bytes.
2020-11-26T04:09:36Z laertus: yep
2020-11-26T04:12:22Z laertus: i think what i can do to read the whole file is pass read-bytevector the maximum fixnum size
2020-11-26T04:13:07Z laertus: i'm guessing there's no portable way to get that size...
2020-11-26T04:13:47Z Zipheir: (import (srfi 143)), fx-greatest.
2020-11-26T04:14:45Z Zipheir: Provided you're OK with allocating about 2^62 bytes for the bytevector.
2020-11-26T04:15:08Z laertus: would it really allocate it if it didn't need it?
2020-11-26T04:15:16Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-11-26T04:15:19Z laertus: :(
2020-11-26T04:15:28Z Zipheir: Bytevectors aren't lazily allocated or something.
2020-11-26T04:16:20Z laertus: r7rs' implementation might have checked the file length behind the scenes first...
2020-11-26T04:16:23Z laertus: hehe
2020-11-26T04:18:38Z Zipheir: Wat?  How is read-bytevector supposed to know the length of the input port?
2020-11-26T04:18:48Z Zipheir: What if it's a tty/
2020-11-26T04:19:58Z laertus: maybe a port is the wrong abstraction for this, then
2020-11-26T04:20:51Z Zipheir: The problem is that many files do not have well-defined sizes, and there's nothing Scheme can do about that.
2020-11-26T04:21:24Z laertus: it could have defined different operations (or options) for different kinds of files
2020-11-26T04:21:43Z laertus: for those with known file sizes, there could be more useful operations that make sense
2020-11-26T04:21:55Z laertus: moot point now, of course...
2020-11-26T04:22:04Z Zipheir: That's virtually impossible without picking an OS.
2020-11-26T04:22:23Z Zipheir: The POSIX SRFIs do provide some help here.
2020-11-26T04:24:37Z Zipheir: I think the simple way to do this is to either use some non-fixed-size structure to represent MIDI data, or to check file size before reading the whole file, if that's really the best approach.
2020-11-26T04:26:11Z Zipheir: Perhaps finger-trees of events?  Thinking out loud.
2020-11-26T04:26:23Z laertus: not familiar with either of those
2020-11-26T04:27:52Z laertus: but thanks for the pointers.. i'll read up on them
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2020-11-26T04:36:20Z laertus: hmm... well, i read up a bit on finger trees, and it seems like the point of using it is to get good performance under certain circumstances
2020-11-26T04:36:37Z laertus: i don't think performance is going to be an issue for me, as midi files are so tiny
2020-11-26T04:36:52Z laertus: so the most inefficient data structure would probably be just fine
2020-11-26T04:36:59Z Zipheir: Lists?
2020-11-26T04:37:10Z laertus: and i'd favor simplicity and clarity over performance, by far
2020-11-26T04:37:17Z laertus: yeah, lists might be fine
2020-11-26T04:37:57Z Zipheir: You can defer the structures used until you decide what kind of operations need to be efficient.
2020-11-26T04:37:59Z laertus: or maybe some record data structure
2020-11-26T04:38:16Z Zipheir: s/defer/defer deciding on/
2020-11-26T04:38:21Z laertus: i don't think anything needs to be efficient
2020-11-26T04:39:42Z laertus: midi files are probably going to be less than 100 kilobytes in size
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2020-11-26T06:28:14Z Zipheir: Just wondering.
2020-11-26T06:29:02Z Zipheir: Oops, again, wrong pipe.  Sorry for the noise.
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2020-11-26T07:14:03Z amirouche: laertus: you can read one byte at a time until eof-object and accumulute the bytes in a bytevector using bytevector accumulator
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2020-11-26T07:47:46Z Zipheir: amirouche: Good idea.  I completely forgot about accumulators.
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2020-11-26T07:50:16Z amirouche: there is a problem with very large files. The default behavior in python is to read the whole file, whereas reading one byte at a time is possible but not easy.
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2020-11-26T07:50:38Z amirouche: (alors Python's open("foobar", "rb").read() is soooooooooo fast!
2020-11-26T07:50:48Z amirouche: s/alors/also/
2020-11-26T07:51:17Z amirouche: even if instead of "rb" you use "r" for text, it is still fast.
2020-11-26T07:52:31Z amirouche: (fast compared to the rest of CPython)
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2020-11-26T12:03:48Z tatsumaru: hey guys, why does (= 1 1.0) return #t but (equal? 1 1.0) returns #f?
2020-11-26T12:08:27Z wasamasa: I recommend studying the standard on that
2020-11-26T12:09:30Z wasamasa: tl;dr: use = for numbers, eqv? for simple types and equal? for composite types
2020-11-26T12:09:50Z wasamasa: yes, strings are composite types
2020-11-26T12:09:56Z tatsumaru: where can I read the standard?
2020-11-26T12:10:07Z wasamasa: and if you ever need identity checking, eq? is a thing
2020-11-26T12:10:30Z wasamasa: there are several, so pick the one applying first :P
2020-11-26T12:11:01Z wasamasa: like https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/ for R5RS
2020-11-26T12:11:32Z wasamasa: there you'll find them in section 6.1
2020-11-26T12:14:04Z wasamasa: the behavior tripping you up here is exactness
2020-11-26T12:15:42Z tatsumaru: yeah it's like javascript == and ===
2020-11-26T12:15:56Z tatsumaru: I am just curious which one is which
2020-11-26T12:16:13Z wasamasa: it isn't :P
2020-11-26T12:17:10Z wasamasa: the only silent coercion going on is when going from exact->inexact
2020-11-26T12:17:25Z wasamasa: unlike JS where silent coercion can happen anywhere beyond numeric types
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2020-11-26T13:25:40Z tatsumaru: would it be a good idea to create a lisp/scheme implementation that compiles to webassembly? this way there could be an easy way to write high performant non-JS browser code.
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2020-11-26T13:29:20Z wasamasa: https://github.com/google/schism
2020-11-26T13:29:39Z wasamasa: I have my doubts though, so far webasm looks like a good fit for the C family and little else
2020-11-26T13:30:01Z wasamasa: and you'll have to write support code for the actually interesting stuff the wasm can interact with
2020-11-26T13:30:13Z wasamasa: like console.log
2020-11-26T13:30:40Z wasamasa: think of it as a language embedded in a JS world :P
2020-11-26T13:33:32Z tatsumaru: IIUC this is a compiler that works with Chez and Guile and produces WASM code?
2020-11-26T13:34:33Z wasamasa: bootstraps off chez/guile
2020-11-26T13:35:46Z wasamasa: you compile the compiler using chez/guile, then you run the resulting compiler for all future work
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2020-11-26T13:36:58Z tatsumaru: does it work with any scheme implementation?
2020-11-26T13:37:31Z wasamasa: obviously not
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2020-11-26T13:41:44Z tatsumaru: what is obvious for you is not obvious for me
2020-11-26T13:42:02Z wasamasa: the readme clearly states it targets r6rs
2020-11-26T13:42:10Z wasamasa: and mentions two r6rs implementations out of who knows how many
2020-11-26T13:42:20Z wasamasa: that is obviously not "any scheme implementation"
2020-11-26T13:42:42Z tatsumaru: I read that but I thought these were only used to compile the compiler, not to use it afterwards.
2020-11-26T13:42:44Z wasamasa: besides, I'd be wary of anyone claiming something works with "any scheme implementation"
2020-11-26T13:42:58Z wasamasa: once you've compiled the compiler, you have a wasm binary
2020-11-26T13:43:10Z wasamasa: you can run that wasm binary to compile the supported r6rs subset
2020-11-26T13:43:37Z wasamasa: no other scheme implementation is involved at that stage, so I don't see how you arrive at the conclusion that it works with a specific scheme implementation, let alone all of them
2020-11-26T13:43:38Z tatsumaru: i see, thank you
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2020-11-26T13:44:14Z tatsumaru: no other scheme implementation other than chez/guile?
2020-11-26T13:45:00Z wasamasa: I'll just wait for you to go and read that README
2020-11-26T13:45:55Z tatsumaru: are you referring to that line "meaning Schism is implemented in Schism itself."
2020-11-26T13:46:10Z wasamasa: that's what they call bootstrapping
2020-11-26T13:46:26Z tatsumaru: so schism is not just a compiler but also a scheme implementation?
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2020-11-26T13:47:03Z wasamasa: I feel like I'm caught in some future revision of The Little Schemer
2020-11-26T13:47:28Z tatsumaru: ok, nvm, sorry for the noob questions, I will try to figure it out on my own
2020-11-26T13:47:35Z wasamasa: I mean, read the first sentence
2020-11-26T13:47:43Z wasamasa: and ask yourself how much sense that question makes
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2020-11-26T13:48:28Z tatsumaru: Well I read it, but then you said that no other scheme implementations are available at this point so I wonder other than what.
2020-11-26T13:48:52Z wasamasa: available for bootstrapping
2020-11-26T13:49:00Z wasamasa: it's explained in detail in the README
2020-11-26T13:49:26Z tatsumaru: but how can Schism be implemented in Schism if Schism isn't an implementation?
2020-11-26T13:49:42Z wasamasa: what gives you the idea it isn't?
2020-11-26T13:49:46Z wasamasa: again, read the document
2020-11-26T13:50:37Z amirouche: Schism is a compiler of scheme to web assembly written in itself. But it is not sufficent to do scheme in the browser
2020-11-26T13:51:42Z wasamasa: one of the many that's worth studying, but not worth using
2020-11-26T13:51:45Z amirouche: the web assembly code is does not work like I expect, you write scheme, compile and execute it all in the browser, but you can not communicate with javascript and the dom
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2020-11-26T13:52:25Z amirouche: tatsumaru: Schism is compile by a previous version of itself, like gcc.
2020-11-26T13:52:30Z amirouche: s/compile/compiled/
2020-11-26T13:52:48Z amirouche: but you can run the comiler with chez and guile too
2020-11-26T13:52:53Z amirouche: last time I checked
2020-11-26T13:53:37Z tatsumaru: I see, thank you
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2020-11-26T13:59:29Z amirouche: tatsumaru: they are other options to work with scheme in the browser, (spoiler: they are not at the same level of polish than say babel)
2020-11-26T14:00:05Z amirouche: babel = js - to - js compiler
2020-11-26T14:02:17Z laertus: i'm struggling to figure out a way to portably read in and destructure a MIDI file
2020-11-26T14:02:32Z laertus: it's a binary format made up of variable-length fields
2020-11-26T14:03:10Z wasamasa: my tip: portability is an unnecessary challenge factor
2020-11-26T14:03:15Z laertus: sometimes i need to interpret bit sequences in it as 16-bit integers, sometimes 32-bit integers, sometimes a single bit will be significant and change the meaning of the subsequent bits
2020-11-26T14:04:14Z laertus: i tried reading it in to r7rs bytevectors, but those aren't very good for doing much, as far as i can tell
2020-11-26T14:04:55Z laertus: and getting them in to something like srfi-178's bitvectors isn't straighforward
2020-11-26T14:05:02Z wasamasa: sure, it's cool to specify SRFIs for every imaginable usecase and port them, but at the end of the day there's work to be done
2020-11-26T14:05:22Z wasamasa: and sometimes that work doesn't map neatly to a SRFI
2020-11-26T14:05:30Z wasamasa: I'm not sure which conclusion to draw from that
2020-11-26T14:05:39Z wasamasa: is it SRFIs being too academic or coding skill too weak
2020-11-26T14:06:36Z laertus: i guess i'm just expressing a frustration with portable scheme, a language that's been around for 50 years, and there's apparently no portable way to deal with a binary file format that's also been around for many decades
2020-11-26T14:07:20Z laertus: something as simple as just reading in a file as a sequence of bits seems an outrageous demand
2020-11-26T14:07:30Z wasamasa: well, that's not what you said
2020-11-26T14:07:34Z wasamasa: parsing file formats isn't trivial
2020-11-26T14:07:49Z wasamasa: hence why people came up with stuff like the bitstring egg
2020-11-26T14:08:42Z wasamasa: feel free to specify an erlang-inspired SRFI if that makes you less angry :P
2020-11-26T14:09:16Z laertus: clearly the need is there, if there's an egg like that.. and i'd bet there are similar libraries in most every other non-toy scheme
2020-11-26T14:09:25Z wasamasa: I wouldn't be so sure
2020-11-26T14:09:30Z wasamasa: scheme is super unpopular after all
2020-11-26T14:09:40Z wasamasa: I've seen something similar in racket, but that's it
2020-11-26T14:10:07Z laertus: well, if they don't have it, how do they parse binary files?
2020-11-26T14:10:14Z wasamasa: the hard way
2020-11-26T14:10:14Z laertus: if they don't, they're toys almost by definition
2020-11-26T14:10:24Z wasamasa: sure, call chibi a toy if you want
2020-11-26T14:11:25Z laertus: also, i wonder why srfi-178 provides an integer->bitvector procedure which assumes the least significant bit is bit 0
2020-11-26T14:11:41Z laertus: it says "This ensures compatibility with the integers-as-bits operations of SRFI 151."
2020-11-26T14:12:00Z laertus: ok, well, i guess anyone that has an integer with the opposite endianness is screwed
2020-11-26T14:12:13Z laertus: and there's no way to specify endianness in that srfi
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2020-11-26T14:14:28Z wasamasa: you are aware that you can extract bits from bytes just fine without having to worry about the endianness of the architecture, aren't you?
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2020-11-26T14:15:00Z wasamasa: similarly you can construct bytes to encode data in the required endianness
2020-11-26T14:15:06Z laertus: how would i do that?
2020-11-26T14:15:31Z wasamasa: bitwise integer operations
2020-11-26T14:15:40Z wasamasa: bitwise-ior/bitwise-and/arithmetic-shift
2020-11-26T14:15:53Z amirouche: bytevector procedures have a way to extract integer of different forms, then you convert back to bits and then play with it
2020-11-26T14:16:37Z amirouche: look beginning at: https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme/blob/master/manuscript/scheme-bytevector.md#bytevector-u8-ref-bytevector-k
2020-11-26T14:16:37Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/tVmfiI2WoG
2020-11-26T14:18:08Z laertus: ah, that's r6rs
2020-11-26T14:18:20Z laertus: i'm using chicken which does not understand r6rs.. just r5 and r7
2020-11-26T14:18:27Z wasamasa: r7rs also has bytevector stuff
2020-11-26T14:18:40Z wasamasa: extracting a byte from a bytevector is the least of your problems
2020-11-26T14:19:02Z laertus: well, r7rs has bytevector-u8-ref, but there's nothing about endianness in it.. it just gives you a byte
2020-11-26T14:19:03Z amirouche: it is part of (scheme bytevector)
2020-11-26T14:19:21Z amirouche: industria has packing and unpacking procedures
2020-11-26T14:19:50Z wasamasa: yes exactly, unless you do something like casting a fixnum to its byte representation, you won't be exposed to endianness of the architecture
2020-11-26T14:19:57Z laertus: industria also looks like another r6rs library
2020-11-26T14:19:59Z wasamasa: and that is a good thing
2020-11-26T14:20:33Z laertus: but the midi file format does have significant endianness
2020-11-26T14:20:46Z wasamasa: that only matters for generating/making sense of midi files
2020-11-26T14:20:52Z wasamasa: it's different from the endianness of the architecture
2020-11-26T14:20:55Z laertus: i need to do both
2020-11-26T14:21:05Z wasamasa: https://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2012/04/byte-order-fallacy.html
2020-11-26T14:21:20Z amirouche: ref: https://github.com/weinholt/struct-pack
2020-11-26T14:21:23Z wasamasa: that code is easily translated to bitwise operations
2020-11-26T14:21:41Z amirouche: you can translate that code
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2020-11-26T14:22:00Z wasamasa: FWIW, telling a r7rs user to translate r6rs code is quite a way to tell them off
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2020-11-26T14:22:50Z amirouche: sure
2020-11-26T14:22:51Z laertus: there is actually already a chicken library that i could use to deal with bitstrings:  http://api.call-cc.org/5/doc/bitstring
2020-11-26T14:23:00Z laertus: which is what i'll probably wind up doing
2020-11-26T14:23:03Z wasamasa: yeah, it is a mystery to me why you don't use that
2020-11-26T14:23:05Z laertus: but i was hoping there was a portable way
2020-11-26T14:23:06Z amirouche: s/translate/adapt/
2020-11-26T14:23:14Z wasamasa: later, once it works, you can translate it to portable code as challenge
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2020-11-26T14:24:15Z wasamasa: all this "Do everything in portable code" gives you is anger issues :P
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2020-11-26T14:24:56Z wasamasa: for starters, work on understanding the format and figuring out a parsing strategy
2020-11-26T14:25:19Z wasamasa: chances are it allows you to do something like looking at the first byte, figuring out how many more bytes to parse, parse those bytes, repeat until reaching EOF
2020-11-26T14:25:50Z laertus: if only it was that easy
2020-11-26T14:25:57Z laertus: but, yeah, it has something like that too
2020-11-26T14:25:57Z wasamasa: that's how many file formats work
2020-11-26T14:26:22Z laertus: well, with midi there are also significant bits that tell you how to interpret the bytes and the field lengths
2020-11-26T14:26:28Z wasamasa: yeah, so?
2020-11-26T14:26:38Z wasamasa: you do parsing using these bitwise operations on bytes
2020-11-26T14:26:47Z wasamasa: as long as everything aligns into bytes, you're good
2020-11-26T14:27:17Z wasamasa: save your complaints when you have to deal with a binary format not doing that and forcing you to work on arbitrary bit sequences :P
2020-11-26T14:29:20Z wasamasa: I've heard zlib does that and so do certain radio standards
2020-11-26T14:29:29Z laertus: midi is not a file format from hell.. it could be worse.. but it's definitely not the most straight forward thing in the world
2020-11-26T14:29:51Z laertus: they clearly designed it to try to save kilobytes, back in the 80's
2020-11-26T14:29:54Z wasamasa: it is on the straight forward end of things
2020-11-26T14:29:56Z laertus: but without using compression
2020-11-26T14:31:22Z wasamasa: yes, it's designed to be easily decodable by a 8-bit CPU
2020-11-26T14:31:25Z wasamasa: deal with it
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2020-11-26T14:37:30Z laertus: don't make me cry, wasamasa
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2020-11-26T14:44:33Z wasamasa: rudybot: I believe I can cry
2020-11-26T14:44:44Z rudybot: wasamasa: "I can't believe a grown man would cry"
2020-11-26T14:45:25Z wasamasa: I expect the next discussion to be about how there's no SRFI for parsers in general
2020-11-26T14:45:41Z wasamasa: how dare they, how dare they don't standardize everything I'm incapable to write code for
2020-11-26T14:46:23Z laertus: i only expect common operations to be standardized
2020-11-26T14:46:31Z wasamasa: common for whom?
2020-11-26T14:47:14Z laertus: like reading in a binary file as bits, and operating on any desired sequence of bits in any order and without limit
2020-11-26T14:47:34Z laertus: sounds like something anyone who ever had to work with a binary file format would need
2020-11-26T14:47:36Z wasamasa: as said before, reading it in as bits is not common at all
2020-11-26T14:47:55Z wasamasa: reading it in as bytes is available, bit manipulation is available as SRFI
2020-11-26T14:48:00Z wasamasa: you have all you need to do this
2020-11-26T14:48:05Z wasamasa: except motivation maybe
2020-11-26T14:49:00Z laertus: and how do you portably get the bytes in to bits when the bytes have an arbitrary endianness?
2020-11-26T14:49:18Z wasamasa: I explained that before
2020-11-26T14:49:28Z wasamasa: bytes don't have an arbitrary endianness
2020-11-26T14:49:47Z wasamasa: the format specifies how the bytes are to be interpreted and you do that interpretation using bitwise operation on integers
2020-11-26T14:49:59Z wasamasa: it's not rocket science
2020-11-26T14:50:28Z wasamasa: I'd like to show you an example of it, but I'm afraid you won't look at it since it's not portable scheme code :P
2020-11-26T14:51:04Z laertus: i can do it non-portably myself, using chicken's bitstring egg
2020-11-26T14:52:12Z laertus: from a midi format doc:  "A variable-length quantity is a represented as a series of 7-bit values, from most-significant to least-significant. where the last byte of the series bit 7 (the most significant bit) set to 0, and the preceding bytes have bit 7 set to 1."
2020-11-26T14:52:40Z wasamasa: the most/least significant part is important
2020-11-26T14:52:48Z laertus: yep
2020-11-26T14:52:53Z laertus: and it's on each byte
2020-11-26T14:52:56Z wasamasa: it tells you what to hand to the arithmetic-shift/bitwise-and parts
2020-11-26T14:53:04Z laertus: so there is a significant bit on each byte
2020-11-26T14:53:20Z laertus: in other words, bytes with endianness per byte
2020-11-26T14:54:39Z laertus: and, btw, not every byte in the format is like this.. just some of them
2020-11-26T14:56:41Z wasamasa: a byte doesn't have endianness
2020-11-26T14:56:50Z wasamasa: you have bits starting from most to least significant bit
2020-11-26T14:57:14Z wasamasa: which one comes first doesn't matter as long as you have operations to extract the most/least significant one
2020-11-26T14:58:28Z laertus: that's the point, i want to extract bits portably
2020-11-26T14:58:43Z wasamasa: to extract the significant bit, you use bitwise-and with a suitable integer, then shift that all the way to the least-significant end
2020-11-26T15:01:05Z laertus: that makes sense
2020-11-26T15:01:22Z wasamasa: in fact, this is so easy, it takes me less than a minute to explain on a slide in my upcoming sunday talk
2020-11-26T15:01:25Z laertus: kind of lower level than i was hoping for.. but as long as it works i guess i can wrap it up in some higher level function
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2020-11-26T15:01:36Z wasamasa: I just sent you code doing that, lol
2020-11-26T15:01:43Z laertus: yeah, i saw.. thanks
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2020-11-26T15:24:33Z amirouche: ManDay: hey! How is the first Whole Universe Simulation going on?
2020-11-26T15:25:58Z ManDay: amirouche: Good :-P I've been a bit impaired the last week but didn't come to a complete stop
2020-11-26T15:26:20Z ManDay: Concentration can be an elusive thing ;-/
2020-11-26T15:26:29Z wasamasa: I always meant to ask, what could ManDay possibly use guile for
2020-11-26T15:26:33Z amirouche: it is relatable :)
2020-11-26T15:26:53Z ManDay: wasamasa: Ah you know, I like to torture myself... Keeps the spirit young
2020-11-26T15:27:10Z wasamasa: but with what?
2020-11-26T15:27:23Z ManDay: Well, with Guile.
2020-11-26T15:27:25Z wasamasa: what's the big picture?
2020-11-26T15:27:35Z wasamasa: guile is just a tool to solve something, right
2020-11-26T15:28:19Z wasamasa: I barely remember it involving arithmetic
2020-11-26T15:28:57Z ManDay: That narrows it down! x-D
2020-11-26T15:29:29Z wasamasa: hence why I implore you
2020-11-26T15:29:46Z ManDay: Yes, the part that I'm currently working on is sort of a symbolic solver framework. Just figure out which equations to "substitute" (in a manner of speaking) into which to get (or not get, depending on what is constrained) a solution.
2020-11-26T15:30:32Z amirouche: it is a whole world simulation, where we can travel through time back to the point where butterfly did its thing in the wrong direction, then we can analyze the consequences and possibly prevent future ones from happening and eventually reach perfection.
2020-11-26T15:31:08Z ManDay: erm, well i'm afraid the dynamics aren't quite up to that (at least that's not what I'm planning for)
2020-11-26T15:31:26Z amirouche: ManDay: you missed a new schemer that has quiet a few trick to market projects!
2020-11-26T15:31:27Z ManDay: but the gist, yes
2020-11-26T15:31:35Z amirouche: s/quiet/quite/
2020-11-26T15:31:56Z ManDay: well if you're selling me over value people are gonna be disappointed, right?
2020-11-26T15:32:23Z ManDay: i mean if for every time I have explained to someone what I do I'd have a working line of code, I'd have quite a lot of work done already
2020-11-26T15:32:25Z ManDay: alas...
2020-11-26T15:32:30Z amirouche: I am not selling your project, we were discussing other stuff like scheme, my search engine and possibly other stuff I do not recall
2020-11-26T15:32:32Z wasamasa: what do you plan to use the symbolic solver for?
2020-11-26T15:32:52Z ManDay: wasamasa: it's part of a bigger framework, like what amirouche said... the butterfly
2020-11-26T15:33:12Z amirouche: that was a joke x)
2020-11-26T15:33:20Z ManDay: (of course that's exaggerating it)
2020-11-26T15:33:21Z ManDay: yeah
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2020-11-26T15:38:28Z amirouche: ManDay: you do that project full time?
2020-11-26T15:39:08Z ManDay: as long as my money reserves carry me
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2020-11-26T15:39:49Z ManDay: my first goal is to bring it into a presentable form before I run out of money to get me a position in academia to keep working on it
2020-11-26T15:40:15Z ManDay: but well, that's just a plan
2020-11-26T15:41:17Z untrusted: now i am confused with hash-table-merge! (srfi-69) vs hash-table-union! (srfi-125) - i think there is a bug in the srfi-125 text
2020-11-26T15:42:18Z untrusted: it should be "If a key appears in both hash tables, its value is set to the value appearing in hash-table[2]."
2020-11-26T15:43:32Z untrusted: no?
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2020-11-26T15:44:09Z Zipheir: untrusted: I think you're right.
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2020-11-26T15:47:30Z Zipheir: hash-table-merge! from 69 "adds all mappings in hash-table2 to hash-table1", which suggests that duplicate mappings should be taken from hash-table2.  It's somewhat ambiguous, however.
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2020-11-26T15:50:30Z amirouche: I am reading https://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf the intro in first page strikes with: how the father of fortran can be so open-minded about functional concepts, but nowadays word-at-a-time practicioners are zealots.
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2020-11-26T15:52:19Z Zipheir: amirouche: It's really refreshing.  He's very humble about his Algol work, too.
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2020-11-26T16:04:38Z untrusted: on the other hand in srfi-146 mapping-union also takes the first in the duplicate case
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2020-11-26T16:24:27Z Zipheir: Taking existing bindings from the first set makes the most sense to me, especially with variadic union.  And since SRFI 69 only vaguely implies that hash-table-merge! uses the second table, I wouldn't want to change SRFI 125.
2020-11-26T16:24:51Z Zipheir: (Not that that's going to happen, since it's final and not self-contradictory.)
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2020-11-26T16:36:47Z amirouche: Re Backus paper, the thing scheme is still linked to the von Neumann style, because you still execute instruction in the order they are laid in the code. It departs a bit from C-like languages because it has first class procedures, but the kind of behavior where you describe a way to solve a problem "declartively" and the machine automatically infer which parts can be executed in parallel is still
2020-11-26T16:36:49Z amirouche: ... far away?
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2020-11-26T16:38:43Z amirouche: it looks like prolog is more in the spirit of that paper than scheme.
2020-11-26T16:39:05Z untrusted: Zipheir: but what should srfi-69 hash-table-merge! do then?
2020-11-26T16:40:18Z Zipheir: I'm trying CHICKEN's 69 now.
2020-11-26T16:41:05Z untrusted: gauche has both versions
2020-11-26T16:41:11Z Zipheir: amirouche: Good point.  In some sense, he gets a declarative language with FP by making it entirely point-free.
2020-11-26T16:41:25Z Zipheir: amirouche: You never apply anything, you just compose functions.
2020-11-26T16:42:16Z amirouche: yes I was going to ask about point-free. So what they describe is point-free programming.
2020-11-26T16:42:26Z Zipheir: untrusted: It's especially interesting to see how Schemes with both handle it, because they'll probably implement 125 on top of 69.
2020-11-26T16:42:59Z Zipheir: amirouche: Yes.
2020-11-26T16:43:32Z Zipheir: amirouche: As most non-Haskellers agree, point-free gets impossible to read quickly.
2020-11-26T16:43:54Z Riastradh: point-less style
2020-11-26T16:44:11Z Zipheir: (Especially when, as in FP, the functions all have names like π, φ, τ, etc.)
2020-11-26T16:44:40Z amirouche: the naming is very difficult to even read, even if you know the name of the symbols/letters
2020-11-26T16:45:00Z Zipheir: However, Backus has a reason for making the language point-free: he wants to avoid the complexities of implementing a substitution model (IIUC).
2020-11-26T16:45:44Z amirouche: I believe we think point-free, but write for the substitution model.
2020-11-26T16:46:02Z amirouche: or point-less not sure what is the correct vocabl
2020-11-26T16:46:28Z Zipheir: amirouche: "point-less" is a joke on the dual meaning of the term in English.
2020-11-26T16:46:53Z Zipheir: amirouche: "pointless" = no reason to bother
2020-11-26T16:50:22Z Zipheir: CHICKEN's SRFI 69 hash-table-merge! keeps the bindings from table-1.
2020-11-26T16:50:51Z wasamasa: hm, strange, can't decipher that from the specification
2020-11-26T16:50:59Z Zipheir: Yeah, it's vague.
2020-11-26T16:51:14Z Zipheir: The sample implementation of 69 uses all of the bindings from table-2.
2020-11-26T16:52:41Z Zipheir: chibi follows CHICKEN, which is good.
2020-11-26T16:52:44Z wasamasa: I wonder if it's possible to avoid this, other than getting as many implementors early on board as possible and make them create test cases
2020-11-26T16:52:50Z wasamasa: because that's how I usually find these issues
2020-11-26T16:53:08Z wasamasa: I've reused CHICKEN's SRFI-69 implementation of hash-table-merge! due to that implementation quirk
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2020-11-26T16:55:20Z Zipheir: SRFI 125 explicitly uses the bindings from the first table in the case of duplicates with hash-table-union!.  This is also a little confusing, though, since that procedure is included "only for SRFI 69 compatibility".
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2020-11-26T17:21:32Z untrusted: my conclusion: better make sure hash-table-merge! does what i want :-)
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2020-11-26T17:31:22Z Zipheir: Ditch the somewhat-ill-defined merge!/union! procedure, if possible.
2020-11-26T17:31:57Z wasamasa: yeah, I'd rather be explicit and write the few lines of code myself
2020-11-26T17:33:04Z untrusted: maybe that is the better solution
2020-11-26T17:34:11Z Zipheir: Or use SRFI 125, where it's clearly defined.
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2020-11-26T17:42:47Z Zipheir: The unfortunate hallmark of blog posts about or using Haskell: "First, some minor details: <dozens of language extensions and library imports>"
2020-11-26T17:43:20Z wasamasa: I'm sure a barrage of SRFI imports or funny racket extensions is no better
2020-11-26T17:44:18Z Zipheir: True.  But I think the Haskell community really has a problem with gratuitous language-extension use.
2020-11-26T17:44:46Z wasamasa: see also https://old.reddit.com/r/schemememe/comments/fun206/a_schemer_tries_racket/
2020-11-26T17:45:01Z Zipheir: Hah, yes, that's a really good one.
2020-11-26T17:45:49Z amirouche: there is tension between exploring new ideas and building upon existing idiom
2020-11-26T17:45:53Z Zipheir: "Imperssonator ephemeron??"
2020-11-26T17:46:49Z Zipheir: Sometimes I think Racket and GHC are secretly run by the same people.
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2020-11-26T17:48:24Z Zipheir: Read a good book on Scheme/Haskell, then look at something written for Racket/GHC, and try to see how it's the same language in either case.
2020-11-26T17:49:07Z Zipheir: (At least Racket is clear about no longer being just a Scheme.)
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2020-11-26T18:13:51Z mdhughes: My CHICKEN prelude was getting up to 20+ imports just to get anything done.
2020-11-26T18:15:30Z wasamasa: rudybot: more R7RS than R7RS
2020-11-26T18:15:32Z rudybot: wasamasa: why are they not portable? (as in, how is read-u8 any more or less portable than input-bytevector-seek)? or do you just mean "not portably implementable on top of r7rs small"?
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2020-11-26T18:44:03Z Zipheir: TyrellScheme.
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2020-11-26T19:46:47Z amirouche: I re-started my work on a scheme to javascript compiler (or transpiler!) I copy-pasted one procedure string-split from the wild internet, and it works \o/
2020-11-26T19:46:58Z amirouche: This time I won't rely on nanopass framework
2020-11-26T19:47:24Z amirouche: I will use match.. I guess that is the old school way of doing things
2020-11-26T19:48:19Z amirouche: most of the last two hours were spent getting together a test machinery for that will allow to possibly test how every step of the compiler works
2020-11-26T19:48:41Z amirouche: previously, I was trying (!) to test the whole compiler at once but that is britlle
2020-11-26T19:49:24Z amirouche: I will rely on the incremental approach and try to work bottom-up like the course say it should be done
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2020-11-26T22:47:36Z amirouche: I understand better why nanopass is useful.
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2020-11-27T10:08:22Z edgar-rft: I've heard that SICP is when you are a Scary Insanely Crazy Person.
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2020-11-27T13:21:24Z amirouche: does the language implemented in 'LISP in Small Pieces whether the implemented language support TCO?
2020-11-27T13:21:34Z amirouche: sorry, I will retry!
2020-11-27T13:21:41Z amirouche: does the language implemented in 'LISP in Small Pieces' support TCO?
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2020-11-27T13:32:14Z wasamasa: there are several interpreters and compilers presented in it
2020-11-27T13:32:25Z wasamasa: it's like 9 interpreters and 5 compilers
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2020-11-27T13:35:05Z wasamasa: and yes, tail recursion is one of the many chapters
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2020-11-27T13:37:26Z aeth: you can't have a Scheme-like without TCO
2020-11-27T13:38:26Z wasamasa: ever heard of this bigloo thing
2020-11-27T13:38:31Z ecraven: it'd be "Scheme-like", not Scheme ;)
2020-11-27T13:38:38Z wasamasa: limited everything in the name of performance
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2020-11-27T14:04:35Z aeth: ecraven: nah, Scheme-like requires TCO... but not e.g. call/cc
2020-11-27T14:04:44Z aeth: at least imo
2020-11-27T14:04:52Z aeth: remove TCO and you're too different.
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2020-11-27T16:02:08Z mdhughes: Too much of my code smashed stack when I tried bigloo, so I gave up. There's probably safe idioms in it, I just don't always use them.
2020-11-27T16:03:09Z mdhughes: Also it only has green threads, I think?
2020-11-27T16:03:34Z amirouche: I saw a message saying it support POSIX threads (maybe it is only in the latest version)
2020-11-27T16:03:53Z amirouche: (soon to be released)
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2020-11-27T17:14:52Z jcowan: NQS can definitely mean "no PTC except self-calls"
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2020-11-28T00:51:31Z Riastradh: Zipheir: FYI, apropos of a conversation I think I saw in passing the other day, I just reduced the time of ctak by about 40% in MIT Scheme.
2020-11-28T00:52:50Z Riastradh: There's probably a little more low-hanging fruit -- call-with-current-continuation and invoking a continuation always take a short trip through the interpreter, and could be adapted to take a shorter trip through the compiled code interface, but it's a little annoying to write that code.
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2020-11-28T09:30:24Z amirouche: there will be talk about CL control flow in the context of wasm at https://github.com/WebAssembly/meetings/blob/master/stack/2020/SG-11-30.md
2020-11-28T09:32:47Z amirouche: it will be monday on zoom.us
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2020-11-28T17:16:42Z jcowan: amirouche: Is it open to all, or only members (in some sense)?
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2020-11-28T17:35:49Z amirouche: jcowan: it is public that is all I know
2020-11-28T17:35:55Z amirouche: idk
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2020-11-28T19:40:10Z aeth: how exactly are labels i.e. '#1=(1 #1#) supposed to be handled? the specification seems underspecified
2020-11-28T19:40:52Z Riastradh: Underspecified how?
2020-11-28T19:41:17Z Riastradh: (let ((x (list 1 #f))) (set-car! (cdr x) x) x)   <-- What else could it yield but the literal equivalent of that?
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2020-11-28T20:02:16Z aeth: Riastradh: for one, whether or not it's 1 or 0 based; second, how to handle multiples of those in values with subtle variations but the same number
2020-11-28T20:02:21Z aeth: probably not the best way to phrase it
2020-11-28T20:03:04Z Riastradh: For reproducibility the writer ought to specify where the indexing starts, but for the reader it shouldn't matter.
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2020-11-28T22:51:20Z jcowan: `write` is not prescribed to be reproducible: it can output (foo) or (|foo| . ()) with equal efficacy
2020-11-28T22:52:22Z Riastradh: There _ought_ to be a reproducible writer.
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2020-11-28T23:03:50Z jcowan: Twinjo will be.
2020-11-28T23:06:12Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/Twinjo.md
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2020-11-29T04:58:25Z Zipheir: Does the list of literals in syntax-rules have any bearing on whether identifier in *templates* are renamed?
2020-11-29T05:00:33Z Zipheir: e.g. (define-syntax silly (syntax-rules (else) ((_ expr) (cond (else expr))))), which works in a few different Schemes with or without 'else' in the literals list.
2020-11-29T05:01:18Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Well, that's cool.
2020-11-29T05:03:56Z Riastradh: There is no standard special meaning for that.  Conceivably an implementor might be tempted to abuse it for name injection, but I can't think of any offhand that do that.
2020-11-29T05:07:57Z Zipheir: So it may be a syntax error in some Schemes, I suppose.
2020-11-29T05:09:06Z Zipheir: R7 says: "Identifiers that appear in the template but are not pattern variables or the identifier <ellipsis> are inserted into the output as literal identifiers."
2020-11-29T05:10:28Z Zipheir: And if you couldn't output an 'else', neither could you output a cond, so the macro expander would be broken.
2020-11-29T05:15:14Z Riastradh: Would be pretty broken for that to be a syntax error, I think.
2020-11-29T05:15:33Z Riastradh: Warning, perhaps -- `hey, you listed a pattern literal that doesn't appear in any pattern, did you mean to?'
2020-11-29T05:16:23Z Zipheir: Right.  Extraneous literals shouldn't have any effect on the expansion, in any case.
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2020-11-29T22:12:14Z amirouche: seems like some people were busy ;)
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2020-11-29T23:15:21Z jcowan: What would be a realistic example of an R6RS compound condition with (a) two direct supertypes where (b) neither of them is a generic supertype like error, warning, who, etc.
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2020-11-29T23:21:45Z Riastradh: jcowan: Maybe something like os-error with an errno code, for conditions raised by an operation that is implemented in terms of a system call but also provides a higher-level interpretation of the error?
2020-11-29T23:33:04Z jcowan: Thanks, that makes sense.
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2020-11-30T03:47:48Z duncanm: Hey hey Riastradh , happy (late) thanksgiving
2020-11-30T03:48:54Z duncanm: I've been writing my own ezd, I've been trying not to copy this command parsing code: https://github.com/ProgrammerArchaeology/ezd/blob/master/commands.sc
2020-11-30T03:49:09Z duncanm: So I've been writing my own, but I don't know if my version is any better (right now, it's not as complete)
2020-11-30T03:49:54Z duncanm: https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/93d3f73abf4c5be3272542107cb8e0f8
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2020-11-30T14:59:01Z amirouche: There is devroom track for this year FOSDEM which will happen online
2020-11-30T14:59:19Z amirouche: I mean all tracks are online, but one might more interesting than the others:
2020-11-30T14:59:21Z amirouche: https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/track/declarative_and_minimalistic_computing/
2020-11-30T14:59:39Z amirouche: A CFP will come sometime in the next few days
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2020-11-30T15:47:55Z bsima: yo latent typing is kinda bonkers when you really think about it
2020-11-30T15:48:07Z bsima: is scheme the only latently-typed language?
2020-11-30T15:51:34Z Riastradh: No, there are lots of others, e.g. JavaScript, Python, Ruby, Common Lisp, Clojure, Erlang, Perl, Matlab/Octave, Smalltalk, Lua...
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2020-11-30T15:52:08Z aeth: Well, that's from http://community.schemewiki.org/?latent-type-system I'm guessing
2020-11-30T15:52:28Z bsima: those are dynamically typed, which isn't quite the same
2020-11-30T15:52:38Z Riastradh: What is the distinction you're drawing?
2020-11-30T15:53:12Z bsima: in a latent type system, the type actually doesn't exist for a value until a function evaluates it
2020-11-30T15:53:24Z Riastradh: Can you be more specific?
2020-11-30T15:53:35Z aeth: However, there is a way to distinguish Scheme's types from Common Lisp's. Scheme's... sort of predicatively typed. You can do that in Common Lisp, with SATISFIES in DEFTYPE, but that's not really how you're supposed to do it. You can of course also do the opposite, which is what I do in Airship Scheme, where something like CL:DEFTYPE generates the predicate, for added efficiency. Basically equivalent to writing the predicates in a very re
2020-11-30T15:53:38Z bsima: in dynamic typing, values have types, they just aren't important until runtime
2020-11-30T15:54:04Z tdammers: that's not what that link says though
2020-11-30T15:54:10Z wasamasa: seems like a lisp-1 misunderstanding
2020-11-30T15:54:29Z bsima: paragraphs 5 and 6 in this comment explain it really well http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/220#comment-7713
2020-11-30T15:54:31Z Riastradh: bsima: What does it mean for a value to `have a type' except at runtime?
2020-11-30T15:54:40Z wasamasa: procedures are a possible type, so we can no longer distinguish between procedures as value and procedures accepting values
2020-11-30T15:55:32Z bsima: Riastradh: it can statically have a type at compile time
2020-11-30T15:55:44Z aeth: wasamasa: No... Scheme only portably exposes types as procedures, specifically predicates. But it's very underspecified, probably intentionally.
2020-11-30T15:56:03Z tdammers: much confusion arises from the term "dynamic type", and that confusion mainly comes from the fact that "tags" (the "type" in "dynamic type") and "types" (the "type" in "latent type" and "static type") are different (and orthogonal) things
2020-11-30T15:56:07Z Riastradh: bsima: How does a _value_, which is an entity that exists only at run-time (in contrast to a syntactic term, say), have any properties at compile-time?
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2020-11-30T15:56:25Z Riastradh: bsima: Can you give a specific example of the distinction you're drawing here?
2020-11-30T15:56:45Z aeth: wasamasa: In Airship Scheme, most types are implemented as either define-scheme-type on the CL side or define-type on the Scheme side. The Lisp-1ness of it is that the types and the predicates both share names, e.g. list? is the type name, unlike CL, which has the distinct type name list
2020-11-30T15:57:02Z aeth: But that's just an aesthetic decision on my part and isn't necessarily true in other Schemes, especially with record types
2020-11-30T15:57:37Z aeth: (I mean, CL's list type is distinct from the LISTP predicate)
2020-11-30T15:57:42Z Riastradh: (As tdammers notes, what Scheme calls `types' is usually called `tags' in PL theory, which reserves the word `type' for a static property of the program's text.  So giving a concrete example might help to avoid stumbling over a largely content-free dispute over claims to nomenclature.)
2020-11-30T15:57:57Z tdammers: indeed
2020-11-30T15:59:16Z aeth: I disagree somewhat. Dynamic types ("tags") go with values, while static types ("types") go with bindings. Not a particularly huge deal. The only issue is that a lot of people seem to refuse to believe that both can exist inside of one language, especially with type inference rather than type declarations.
2020-11-30T15:59:28Z tdammers: and it's doubly confusing because in languages that have both static type checks and dynamic tags, like for example typescript, the same identifiers are used to refer to both types (properties of an expression that we can reason about statically) and tags (properties of a value that are attached and inspected at runtime)
2020-11-30T15:59:37Z aeth: SBCL actually has three parallel type systems: the runtime/dynamic, the static+inferred, and the static+declared.
2020-11-30T15:59:53Z aeth: (Declared being manifest typing, which when part of a dynamically typed language means gradual typing.)
2020-11-30T16:00:22Z Riastradh: Why don't we find out what distinction bsima is talking about before introducing a zillion extra complications to model systems they're not talking about?
2020-11-30T16:00:39Z aeth: Riastradh: Almost certainly from http://community.schemewiki.org/?latent-type-system
2020-11-30T16:01:07Z tdammers: that's what I was assuming
2020-11-30T16:01:14Z aeth: Although the actual link is http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/220
2020-11-30T16:01:28Z aeth: Idk which came first, that's an old article (2004)
2020-11-30T16:01:34Z Riastradh: aeth: I think bsima can speak for themself.
2020-11-30T16:02:07Z aeth: Riastradh: they did: <bsima> paragraphs 5 and 6 in this comment explain it really well http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/220#comment-7713
2020-11-30T16:03:39Z Riastradh: What I get from http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/220#comment-7713 is that when Anton says `latent type system', he means an _informal_ system of communicating constraints/contracts/&c. used by the programmer culture to simplify thinking about programs -- whether there is a `dynamic type (tag) system' or a `static type system' in the language.
2020-11-30T16:04:13Z Riastradh: Which is not really a property of the language itself, so I'm not sure how it comports with a question about whether Scheme is the `only' latently-typed language, or the proposition that Scheme is latently typed but every other example I gave is not.
2020-11-30T16:04:26Z aeth: eww, informal, I'm not a fan
2020-11-30T16:05:01Z tdammers: I'd say the difference is simply that a statically typed language comes with a type checker and syntax for declaring types, while a latently typed language doesn't
2020-11-30T16:07:00Z tdammers: and in this context, we can probably take the "types are conceptually sets of values" stance, and conclude that in pretty much every practical language out there, every expression has a distinct set of values that it can produce, and that set is often smaller than the set of all values that the language can represent
2020-11-30T16:07:13Z Riastradh: tdammers: That's what I would have said too.  But bsima seems to disagree, because all of the other examples I gave are not `latently typed' in their nomenclature.
2020-11-30T16:07:44Z Riastradh: So I'm not sure what they mean by it.
2020-11-30T16:07:47Z tdammers: I'm trying to imagine what a language would look like that isn't latently typed
2020-11-30T16:08:34Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> So if the language says that it has no types but strings, but has a syntactic process in execution to "interpret" the value as a number, as a truth value, as the name of a program or function, is that latently typed versus statically typed versus dynamically typed.
2020-11-30T16:08:56Z tdammers: from the "types as sets" point of view, "not typed at all, not even latently" would suggest that it must be legal and not an error to use literally any possible expression in literally any position
2020-11-30T16:09:36Z tdammers: shell might qualify, depending on what you consider an error
2020-11-30T16:10:51Z tdammers: like, for example, you can ask sh to interpret literally anything it can represent as a program name; if that program doesn't exist, then that is an error, but if you consider this "not a language error", then you could say that this is valid code
2020-11-30T16:10:55Z aeth: People joke that Perl is such a language. It's a joke, though.
2020-11-30T16:11:19Z tdammers: indeed, Perl most certainly does have implicit type assumptions, which would make it latently typed by that definition
2020-11-30T16:11:31Z tdammers: same for JS, Python, etc.
2020-11-30T16:12:33Z aeth: Python has a decent type system... the biggest flaw is probably that its fixnum vs bignum distinction is ridiculously low relative to what a Lisp uses. Something like 4 iirc.
2020-11-30T16:13:06Z amirouche: 4 what?
2020-11-30T16:13:33Z amirouche: 4 kinds of integers?
2020-11-30T16:13:52Z aeth: No, Python's cutoff point for efficient "fixnum" before it moves into bignum territory is really, really low. As in, possibly the number 4.
2020-11-30T16:13:58Z Zipheir: Well, Wikipedia says Scheme is a latently-typed language, but the page fails to characterize the idea beyond "types are associated with values and not variables".
2020-11-30T16:14:01Z aeth: It has been months, though, so I probably have the wrong, low number.
2020-11-30T16:14:38Z tdammers: Zipheir: the "types are associated with values and not variables" thing is a very popular way of putting it, but I find it misleading
2020-11-30T16:14:47Z amirouche: from user perspective only the type `int` exists
2020-11-30T16:14:58Z Zipheir: Agreed.  It doesn't say anything much.
2020-11-30T16:15:05Z tdammers: you can attach "type" information ("tags" in PL theory parlance) to values, which is what "dynamically typed" languages do
2020-11-30T16:15:14Z aeth: Zipheir: But in reality, it's always both, not either. Scheme just relies heavily on type inference through non-polymorphic procedures, where practically everything has one valid type as the prefix such as all of the vector-foo stuff.
2020-11-30T16:15:16Z tdammers: and scheme very much is such a language
2020-11-30T16:15:38Z aeth: Zipheir: While Common Lisp is more about type declarations for efficient code, being less purist, but perhaps more practical.
2020-11-30T16:15:49Z tdammers: you can also attach type information to expressions, which are language constructs that exist at compile time (AST nodes or whatever)
2020-11-30T16:16:05Z Zipheir: So is latent-typing a non-concept, just some weird ephemeral distinction someone has applied to dynamically-typed languages.
2020-11-30T16:16:11Z Zipheir: s/\./?/
2020-11-30T16:16:40Z Zipheir: aeth: It seems like "dynamically-typed" describes both languages.
2020-11-30T16:17:06Z aeth: Zipheir: My point, though, is that Scheme has a ton of things to aid in type inference. Anything that doesn't (which might be the majority of Schemes, idk) is best classified as a "naive interpreter" imo.
2020-11-30T16:17:07Z tdammers: the way I see it, "latently typed" means that the language is typed (in the sense that in order for an expression to be valid, its types must check out), but does not provide features for compiler-supported type checking or type inference
2020-11-30T16:17:21Z aeth: Zipheir: Type inference being static typing, just not manifest typing.
2020-11-30T16:18:28Z Riastradh: Zipheir: No idea, that's why I keep hoping the one person in here who seems to draw a distinction between them will explain.
2020-11-30T16:18:34Z tdammers: and yes, there's a bit of a grey area with compilers that employ type inference, but do it transparently - from a user's perspective, the type system is still latent, it's not made explicit, and you cannot directly interact with it; but from the compiler's perspective, the language is statically typed, you just don't require the user to spell the types out
2020-11-30T16:18:55Z bsima: i think from the "types as sets" point of view, scheme as a latently typed langauge allows the programmer to freely associate a type-set with a value (because you can easily make meta-circular interpreters, change things with macros, etc), whereas both static and dynamically typed langs have a fixed set of types that can be associated with values but those associations differ in that they are either checked at compile time or runtime.
2020-11-30T16:19:11Z Riastradh: bsima: Can you give a concrete example?
2020-11-30T16:20:28Z aeth: tdammers: And then you can have 3, like SBCL in the Common Lisp world, although I'm unaware if a Scheme does this (Scheme really heavily leans towards preferring inference). Declared (manifest) types, inferred types, and runtime/tagged/dynamic types.
2020-11-30T16:21:28Z tdammers: aeth: yes; however, I think we can disregard "dynamic types" for the purpose of this discussion and just pretend that all languages tag their values and thus use "dynamic types"
2020-11-30T16:21:30Z aeth: (As in, the SLIME inspector in Emacs actually exposes a distinction between declared and inferred types just for SBCL, and not for any other CL/Scheme in SLIME afaik.)
2020-11-30T16:22:33Z tdammers: this isn't actually super far off, because 1) even Haskell tags values by default (unboxing and erasing tags is done as an optimization, sometimes), and 2) an implementation of a statically typed language that tags all untagged values with their inferred or declared types would still be perfectly valid
2020-11-30T16:22:52Z tdammers: so the question boils down to static vs. latent vs. maybe not typed at all
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2020-11-30T16:23:43Z Zipheir: I don't see what macros and metacircular evaluators have to do with it.
2020-11-30T16:23:44Z aeth: bsima: So do you mean that because a macro can be anything (including an interpreter or even a compiler), you never really know what type anything is in Scheme if you're not given the complete program?
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2020-11-30T16:23:56Z aeth: In that case, this holds for any Lisp.
2020-11-30T16:24:00Z mdhughes: d: Tcl has "only string type", but the current version keeps a cache of the actual object so it doesn't have to parse every function or array every single time you read it.
2020-11-30T16:24:35Z Zipheir: bsima: Can you give an example in Scheme of "freely associating a type-set with a value"?
2020-11-30T16:24:53Z tdammers: it's maybe worth mentioning that just because statically figuring out a sufficiently honest type for a program or an expression is impractical doesn't make a language untyped
2020-11-30T16:25:35Z tdammers: and also that the type of an expression depends on a context that may include the entire dependency graph
2020-11-30T16:25:46Z aeth: tdammers: You can "break" the type system in a macro like this for a compiler/interpreter via CFFI or other, even more exotic ways.
2020-11-30T16:26:13Z tdammers: aeth: yes, but what you're breaking in this case isn't really the types themselves, but rather the assumptions of the type checker
2020-11-30T16:26:28Z tdammers: i.e., the type checker checks against different types than what is "latently" there
2020-11-30T16:27:03Z tdammers: naively, you can do a similar thing in Python, by overloading operators, for example. like, say you write a procedure as def add(a, b): return a + b
2020-11-30T16:27:19Z tdammers: you'd assume that its latent type is something like Num a => a -> a -> a
2020-11-30T16:27:57Z tdammers: but you can overload the addition operator to make it do different things for different types, and the context that provides those overloads chances the latent type of our `add` function
2020-11-30T16:28:35Z tdammers: and of course if we check that code against a type checker that assumes that + means numeric addition, then yes, it will break
2020-11-30T16:28:49Z mdhughes: My practical concern for type systems is: Do I have to write a bunch of crap like `Map<String,Flyer> flyers = new SequencedHashMap<String,Flyer>()`, or can I just write `flyers = {}` and remember to key with string, and never put pigs in it.
2020-11-30T16:29:15Z [d]: <D​ave Whitten#1532> So if a language standard specifies a way of recognizing a language, and states any other input is not in the language, and all language processors for the language generate an error if the input is not in the language, Does this mean it is an implicit type language ?
2020-11-30T16:29:20Z Zipheir: So... any language with ad-hoc polymorphism (e.g. Haskell) is latently-typed?
2020-11-30T16:29:56Z jcowan: aeth: in most languages, even the most sternly statically typed, it is informal reasoning that tells you how to avoid division by zero.
2020-11-30T16:30:32Z jcowan: Perhaps there are languages with types NonZero and Zero, but I don't know them
2020-11-30T16:30:33Z tdammers: jcowan: except languages that consider NaN and Inf perfectly reasonable values for the Number type
2020-11-30T16:30:53Z tdammers: also, if you insist, you can have a NonZero type in Haskell if you really insist
2020-11-30T16:30:59Z mdhughes: jcowan: Pascal/Modula-2/Oberon.
2020-11-30T16:31:11Z jcowan: They are perfectly reasonable?  Number represents certain things that may not be numbers, just as it fails to represent certain things that are numbers.
2020-11-30T16:31:15Z jcowan: s/?/.
2020-11-30T16:31:23Z mdhughes: Probably others have range types. Ada?
2020-11-30T16:31:49Z tdammers: jcowan: well yeah; we have yet to come up with a number type that can represent literally any number
2020-11-30T16:32:17Z mdhughes: But it's just so much easier to put `assert x != 0` above your division.
2020-11-30T16:32:20Z jcowan: Ada has range-restricted subtypes, yes
2020-11-30T16:32:59Z jcowan: You can do that if you are willing to deal with the consequences of failing an assert.  If you aren't, you need to use informal reasoning.
2020-11-30T16:33:10Z tdammers: mdhughes: also, in Haskell you could go and define `safeDiv :: Num a => a -> a -> Maybe a`
2020-11-30T16:33:35Z tdammers: this doesn't statically assert non-zeroness, but it does statically assert that the result of a division by zero is handled
2020-11-30T16:33:36Z jcowan: (And of course, since both formal and informal reasoning are fallible, you probably want suspenders *and* belt: reason and assert.)
2020-11-30T16:34:16Z jcowan: tdammers: To make that really work you want the math operators to take Maybe arguments as well.
2020-11-30T16:34:36Z tdammers: jcowan: that's trival, just exploit Maybe's Applicative instance
2020-11-30T16:34:40Z Zipheir: "You can't trust a man who wears suspenders and a belt.  That man can't even trust his own pants." (The Good, The Bad, The Ugly)
2020-11-30T16:35:34Z tdammers: (+) <$> Just 1 <*> safeDiv 5 0 -- returns Nothing
2020-11-30T16:35:48Z Zipheir: Indeed so.
2020-11-30T16:36:16Z tdammers: granted, prefix + is a bit ugly, but this being #scheme I don't think anyone can take offense at that
2020-11-30T16:36:32Z Zipheir: (Of course, in Haskell using Applicative means you have to figure out how to pronounce "<*>".)
2020-11-30T16:36:58Z tdammers: no, you don't. that's just for those weird haskellers who talk to people in person
2020-11-30T16:37:08Z Zipheir: Hah.
2020-11-30T16:37:29Z mdhughes: <*> is obviously a cat's rear end.
2020-11-30T16:37:45Z Zipheir: "apply over" is the best I've been able to come up with.
2020-11-30T16:37:55Z mdhughes: "catbutt" is a good operator name.
2020-11-30T16:38:00Z tdammers: if you want to confuse people, you pronounce <*> as "TIE Bomber"
2020-11-30T16:38:14Z tdammers: ah no wait, "TIE Interceptor"
2020-11-30T16:38:16Z Zipheir: Tie, for short.  I like it!
2020-11-30T16:38:17Z tdammers: the bomber is <**>
2020-11-30T16:38:30Z mdhughes: I still say "bang" for ! and "string" for $
2020-11-30T16:38:32Z tdammers: (and yes, it exists too)
2020-11-30T16:38:45Z Zipheir: <\**>
2020-11-30T16:38:54Z aeth: jcowan: uh, actually...
2020-11-30T16:39:28Z jcowan: Zipheir: (a) my pants are a lot simpler than my computer (b) I don't entirely trust my pants to stay up even with a belt.
2020-11-30T16:39:53Z aeth: jcowan: Airship Scheme already has zero? as a type and it's not even pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha... https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/4dfb78a814dd24c45d0e6e4d02207e0180f62730/scheme-types.lisp#L109
2020-11-30T16:39:53Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/hjRv1lzdU1
2020-11-30T16:39:57Z jcowan: (Not that I wear suspenders; being debagged doesn't actually embarrass me)
2020-11-30T16:40:22Z aeth: jcowan: So you just happen to be talking to the author of a language with a zero type :-)
2020-11-30T16:40:23Z jcowan: aeth: A dynamic type, fine; a static type?
2020-11-30T16:40:31Z aeth: jcowan: Yes, both.
2020-11-30T16:41:41Z jcowan: Concedo.
2020-11-30T16:44:24Z tdammers: zero type as in type with zero inhabitants? or type with zero as its only inhabitant?
2020-11-30T16:45:39Z aeth: tdammers: as in the range [0, 0] inclusively or the complex number whose parts both consist of the range [0, 0]
2020-11-30T16:46:18Z aeth: CL's DEFTYPE is expressive enough to permit this, but CL itself doesn't care, whereas I figured out how to formulate it for the core of Airship Scheme's type system as the type-equivalent to the predicate zero?
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2020-11-30T16:48:08Z aeth: tdammers: admittedly, this makes zero? a better name than jcowan's hypothetical Zero because it doesn't have that ambiguity.
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2020-11-30T16:49:43Z tdammers: ah, so a type whose only inhabitant is the/a zero value
2020-11-30T16:50:55Z Zipheir: The Zero monad.
2020-11-30T16:51:16Z tdammers: although I don't really see how the existence of a zero? procedure creates a zero type - the latent type of zero? would be something like Number -> Bool
2020-11-30T16:51:49Z tdammers: but of course a Zero type could occur subsequently, like in a conditional keyed on a zero? check
2020-11-30T16:52:47Z jcowan: In this convention, Zero is the type of all objects that satisfy the predicate zero?.
2020-11-30T16:53:01Z jcowan: and likewise for NonZero.
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2020-11-30T16:53:54Z aeth: tdammers: it's defined via define-scheme-type* for efficiency purposes, which means it will use the predicate CL:ZEROP for the predicate portion and then (or (real 0 0) (complex (real 0 0))) for the type portion, which should remain equivalent unless there are bugs (rather than generating the predicate from the type test, which the non-* version does)
2020-11-30T16:54:32Z aeth: as in, it's either the real (integer or float) in the range [0, 0] inclusively or the complex whose two parts consist solely of that.
2020-11-30T16:56:45Z aeth: tdammers: I personally see Scheme as "predicatively typed", so I create a type for nearly every built-in predicate, although many have to be inefficient (SATISFIES types).
2020-11-30T16:57:25Z Riastradh: aeth: So what kinds of theorems can you guarantee your compiler will prove, or object to, at compile-time in an interaction with the developer?
2020-11-30T16:57:42Z Riastradh: And with what bounds on the cost to make its determination in order to keep it interactive?
2020-11-30T16:59:02Z aeth: tdammers: However, both separate namespaces still exist from the host Common Lisp, it's just that the type happens to have the same name as the predicate. This means that in theory you could do (let ((list? 42)) (type? (list 1 2 3) 'list?)) and it would use the type namespace even though the combined variable-procedure namespace has been rebound.
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2020-11-30T17:02:04Z jcowan: Which is why Lisp-2 is a misleading name (not to mention the possibility of confusion with 2Lisp and Lisp2)
2020-11-30T17:02:10Z jcowan: it's really Lisp>1
2020-11-30T17:02:15Z aeth: Riastradh: Above all, the first priority is getting it running. Initially, what I will do is rewrite the standard procedures with simple manifest typing to express the constraints where possible. So e.g. (finite? z) clearly means that it's to work on a complex? number because of the z as the argument. And return a boolean.
2020-11-30T17:02:20Z aeth: jcowan: With 3 main namespaces, yes.
2020-11-30T17:02:34Z jcowan: I meant CL altogether
2020-11-30T17:02:55Z aeth: Lisp-3, while still inaccurate, would at least capture the three major namespaces you work with in CL.
2020-11-30T17:04:21Z aeth: Riastradh: Anything particularly fancy would have to wait until a later point. I'm under the impression that that mostly comes from procedure types.
2020-11-30T17:06:04Z aeth: Riastradh: You're correct to note that the main restriction in cost will be interactive development, though, i.e. fast-recompilation.
2020-11-30T17:06:19Z Riastradh: aeth: I'm not asking what `types' you can express -- I'm asking what kinds of theorems you can be sure the toolchain will verify, or noisily report as either provably false or at least merely unverifiable, during development.
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2020-11-30T17:08:58Z jcowan: Which three do you mean?  Function/macro, variable, class name, method name, block name, go tag, catch tag, package?
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2020-11-30T17:09:32Z aeth: jcowan: afaik, it's function/macro/method, variable, class/type for the main 3.
2020-11-30T17:09:51Z aeth: I suppose packages come up a lot, but they're a fairly distinct concept
2020-11-30T17:10:12Z aeth: Riastradh: I think you're assuming something more formal than it is.
2020-11-30T17:11:04Z aeth: Riastradh: This is not a core feature of Scheme the language so it's not a priority focus at the moment.
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2020-11-30T17:14:05Z aeth: Riastradh: At launch, it will be as simple as ensuring that the types of bindings, when inferred or declared, match the types that are expected by the procedure types when such types are declared. So something like (let ((x 42)) (map + x)) would be caught at compile time.
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2020-11-30T17:14:39Z jcowan: aeth: Yes, CL methods don't have names; I had forgotten that
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2020-11-30T17:15:12Z jcowan: (defmethod foo ...) names the gf to which the method belongs (which is auto-created if need be).
2020-11-30T17:15:43Z aeth: jcowan: iirc it's that CL methods via defmethod are tied into a CL generic function via defgeneric (which is automatically created if none exist) that shares the same namespace as functions/macros/special-operators.
2020-11-30T17:15:57Z aeth: more or less what you wrote while I was writing what I wrote
2020-11-30T17:16:00Z jcowan: Naturally, since a generic function isa function
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2020-11-30T17:19:04Z Riastradh: jcowan: I started to write a little algebra system a few years ago in Haskell to distinguish zero by type: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20201130/Frobnitz.hs
2020-11-30T17:20:06Z Riastradh: I didn't finish it, but the experiment was to see how much it would hurt to impose the following rule in a Haskell program: you can only divide by something if the program text carries with it a proof that the thing is nonzero.
2020-11-30T17:22:05Z aeth: If you're wondering how I will do such a thing, then the answer is that I won't, at least not initially.
2020-11-30T17:23:06Z aeth: I could perhaps just for fun make nonzero? the second part of / but that would only be useful for things like ((let ((x 0)) (/ 42 x))
2020-11-30T17:23:36Z Riastradh: aeth: The reason I bring this up is that essentially the whole point of a `type system' (in the sense of PL theory, i.e., static) is that it is a language for writing theorems that can be verified during development.
2020-11-30T17:24:23Z lortabac: Riastradh: it looks like the perfect task for refinement types (ex. Liquid Haskell)
2020-11-30T17:25:06Z jcowan: Well, it certainly hurts to implement such a thing, but what interests me is how much it hurts to use it.
2020-11-30T17:25:33Z aeth: Riastradh: I don't want to formalize anything too early in development.
2020-11-30T17:25:46Z Riastradh: You want a certain amount of expressiveness so you can write useful theorems -- but you also want the expressiveness to be constrained so that the verifier will complete in reasonable time to use it as a tool during development for large bodies of code.
2020-11-30T17:26:23Z Riastradh: That's why most `type systems' do not allow arbitrary boolean predicates the way Common Lisp does -- the vast majority of such predicates are uncomputable, and the vast majority of the computable ones are not reasonably efficiently computable.
2020-11-30T17:26:48Z aeth: Riastradh: And, unfortunately, the latter ("reasonable time") absolutely will be the main constraint in what I'll wind up doing in Airship Scheme.
2020-11-30T17:26:49Z Riastradh: lortabac: Well, I wanted to try doing it with vanilla type classes!  (+ multiparameter and fundeps)
2020-11-30T17:27:07Z aeth: Riastradh: Any reasonable Common Lisp will turn SATISFIES into a runtime check.
2020-11-30T17:27:38Z aeth: Any reasonable use of SATISFIES should probably have a static part at the beginning as part of an OR, which would actually be done by a static CL
2020-11-30T17:28:26Z aeth: Riastradh: In particular, integer? in Scheme is extremely problematic because it uses the concept of the mathematical integer rather than what exact-integer does.
2020-11-30T17:28:32Z jcowan: I also take the CL view: you can ask for whatever you want, but if it takes a long time (or forever), that's your problems.
2020-11-30T17:28:36Z aeth: Even list? is problematic, though, because it forces a proper list.
2020-11-30T17:29:05Z jcowan: If you want something shallower, you know how to write it.
2020-11-30T17:30:46Z aeth: Riastradh: I haven't finalized the details, but Airship Scheme will take the interpretation that a CL SATISFIES type (which must exist because it must interoperate with CL) is an any? (or whatever I'll wind up calling it) plus a runtime check.
2020-11-30T17:31:06Z aeth: Essentially any statically typed code should avoid such things.
2020-11-30T17:31:59Z aeth: (SATISFIES types must also exist because of integer? and list? and maybe a few other core types in Scheme, which have unfortunate (imo) semantics compared to CL's versions, which were probably written with gradual typing in mind)
2020-11-30T17:32:52Z Riastradh: (The original that Frobnitz.hs was based on is: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/Algebra.hs -- this one actually works, but it doesn't formalize anything about zeroness beyond having a ZeroTestable type class for those types in which testing for zero is efficiently computable.)
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2020-11-30T17:39:26Z Riastradh: I did make an annoying concession in the design -- I didn't express any proofs of primality in the type classes there; I merely asserted that 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, and 13 are prime as axioms.
2020-11-30T17:40:10Z Riastradh: (identifying other primes that might appear in your program like 51 is left as an exercise for the reader)
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2020-11-30T18:22:56Z Zipheir: jcowan: Who's the author of the SRFI 134 sample implementation--you or Shiro?  The document says you, the implementation header comment says Shiro.
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2020-11-30T19:11:23Z jcowan: If it says Shiro, it is Shiro.
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2020-11-30T19:44:53Z duncanm: hello hello
2020-11-30T19:50:19Z Zipheir: jcowan: OK, I'll give him attribution in the Authors section for my CHICKEN port.
2020-11-30T19:50:46Z jcowan: Sure.  But filing a SRFI erratum would be a Good Thing too.
2020-11-30T19:51:11Z Zipheir: OK, I'll write to the SRFI 134 ml.
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2020-11-30T19:51:37Z Zipheir: duncanm: Hello!
2020-11-30T19:51:46Z jcowan: Copy srfi-editors to make sure Arthur notices it
2020-11-30T19:51:56Z Zipheir: ACK.
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2020-11-30T22:26:20Z duncanm: Riastradh: i was talking to someone on twitter about MIT Scheme on the new M1 macs
2020-11-30T22:27:05Z duncanm: Riastradh: i saw that you've made steady commits to the aarch64 backend to MIT Scheme, i wonder what needs to be done to have it work on the new Macs
2020-11-30T22:27:39Z Riastradh: Dunno, I figured it should just work out of the box (at least, starting with version 12; from 11, you'll need to cross-build).
2020-11-30T22:29:50Z Riastradh: Do you have one?  Have you tried it?
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2020-11-30T23:35:14Z duncanm: I don't have one, but I'm thinking about it
2020-11-30T23:35:29Z duncanm: v12 is what's on the master branch in git?
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2020-11-30T23:37:09Z Riastradh: yes
2020-11-30T23:38:33Z duncanm: Oh, I do have a WIndows ARM device, and I run Linux inside WSL
2020-11-30T23:38:35Z duncanm: Let me try that
2020-11-30T23:39:43Z duncanm: i think you tried teaching me once how to compile from git
2020-11-30T23:39:50Z Riastradh: ./Setup.sh
2020-11-30T23:40:09Z Riastradh: ./configure --enable-native-code=aarch64le --enable-cross-compiling
2020-11-30T23:40:12Z Riastradh: make
2020-11-30T23:40:25Z Riastradh: (or  make -j4  if you want to parallelize it 4 ways)
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2020-11-30T23:40:56Z duncanm: let me try it now
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2020-11-30T23:44:21Z duncanm: it says it needs an existing MIT Scheme to function
2020-11-30T23:44:42Z duncanm: but in my ARM64 Linux env, I don't have an MIT Scheme
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2020-11-30T23:47:16Z jcowan: Ask Riastradh if he plans to add support for it to the compiler.
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2020-11-30T23:47:46Z duncanm: hmm, i can run this on my intel Mac for now
2020-11-30T23:49:10Z Riastradh: duncanm: cross-compile
2020-11-30T23:49:18Z duncanm: checking for native-code support... configure: error: unknown compiler architecture: aarch64le
2020-11-30T23:49:29Z Riastradh: So, fuller steps:
2020-11-30T23:49:36Z Riastradh: (on Intel machine with existing mit-scheme)
2020-11-30T23:49:53Z Riastradh: git clone https://savannah.gnu.org/git/mit-scheme.git
2020-11-30T23:49:55Z Riastradh: cd mit-scheme/src
2020-11-30T23:49:56Z Riastradh: ./Setup.sh
2020-11-30T23:50:11Z Riastradh: ./configure --enable-native-code=aarch64le --enable-cross-compiling
2020-11-30T23:50:14Z Riastradh: make -j4 cross-host
2020-11-30T23:50:27Z Riastradh: Then, copy it into the same pathname on the aarch64 system.
2020-11-30T23:50:32Z Riastradh: (on aarch64 system)
2020-11-30T23:50:35Z Riastradh: cd mit-scheme/src
2020-11-30T23:50:47Z Riastradh: make -j4 cross-target
2020-11-30T23:52:44Z duncanm: hmm, but i won't be able to cross compile from my intel Mac and get a bundle that I can continue in Linux ARM64,  will I?
2020-11-30T23:53:50Z duncanm: I typed it here https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/fd8fa119ee2dfb4b2f15af8dc97adc84
2020-11-30T23:54:24Z jcowan: Rent a cheap Linux box somewhere (I use AWS myself) and download Linux x86_64 binaries on it.  You won't need it for long.
2020-11-30T23:55:35Z Riastradh: Oh, you'll have to do one more step before make -j4 cross-target on the aarch64 system --
2020-11-30T23:55:40Z duncanm: hmm, I have xcode 12.2, and it says
2020-11-30T23:55:44Z Riastradh: (cd microcode && ./configure --enable-native-code=aarch64le --enable-cross-compiling)
2020-11-30T23:55:46Z duncanm: Xcode 12.2 and later automatically adds the arm64 architecture to the list of standard architectures for all macOS binaries, including apps and libraries.
2020-11-30T23:55:47Z Riastradh: [with the parentheses]
2020-11-30T23:56:17Z duncanm: i updated the gist
2020-11-30T23:56:18Z duncanm: so
2020-11-30T23:56:23Z duncanm: (on aarch64 system)
2020-11-30T23:56:23Z duncanm: cd mit-scheme/src
2020-11-30T23:56:23Z duncanm: (cd microcode && ./configure --enable-native-code=aarch64le --enable-cross-compiling)
2020-11-30T23:56:23Z duncanm: make -j4 cross-target
2020-11-30T23:56:58Z duncanm: so my intel mac ought to be able to make arm64 binaries
2020-11-30T23:58:44Z Riastradh: The Intel system builds a Scheme cross-compiler (as an Intel binary) and cross-compiles Scheme with it when you do `make cross-host'.
2020-11-30T23:59:04Z Riastradh: That's what you copy over to the ARM system.
2020-11-30T23:59:35Z Riastradh: Then `make cross-target' finishes the cross-compilation job (because MIT Scheme's cross-compiler is a little lame) and builds the C part (which requires rerunning ./configure in microcode).