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2020-10-01T13:04:24Z vmous: Hello!
2020-10-01T13:05:03Z amirouche: hello :)
2020-10-01T13:05:10Z amirouche: vmous: ^
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2020-10-02T23:44:51Z aeth: Quiet channel.
2020-10-02T23:45:02Z aeth: Anyone have any recent Scheme projects they want to share?
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2020-10-02T23:47:32Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme now has important trigonometric functions like versine.
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2020-10-02T23:48:27Z Riastradh: Also slightly better exp, log, expm1, and log1p, and overall better compliance with IEEE 754-2019 operations.  https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/log/
2020-10-02T23:49:03Z Riastradh: (Complex expm1 is hard, though: difficult to compute e^r cos t - 1 when cos t is very close to e^{-r}.)
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2020-10-03T00:01:08Z aeth: Oh, cool, versine.
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2020-10-03T00:02:03Z aeth: Used in navigation on a sphere... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haversine_formula
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2020-10-03T00:03:32Z aeth: (Useful for people who like trivia.)
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2020-10-03T00:44:50Z Zipheir: There are some new SRFIs that could use some reviews.  The mls have been pretty quiet lately, too.
2020-10-03T00:46:08Z Zipheir: In particular, the bytestrings SRFI (207) is pretty large and is coming up on 60 days.
2020-10-03T00:57:35Z Zipheir: I'm excited that SRFI 204 is nearing completion.  Hopefully it will help unify the many variants of Wright-style pattern-matching out there.
2020-10-03T01:03:39Z jcowan: Zipheir: Do you think we ought to request a new draft of 207 at this point?
2020-10-03T01:04:27Z jcowan: (iow, has the implementation caught up with the procedure renaming?)
2020-10-03T01:04:53Z Riastradh: versine is better than cosine.
2020-10-03T01:05:21Z Riastradh: Functions that don't cross either cross zero or digerge at zero are bad.
2020-10-03T01:06:14Z Riastradh: I also added sin-pi*, cos-pi*, tan-pi*, asin/pi, acos/pi, atan/pi.
2020-10-03T01:06:22Z Riastradh: (and versin-pi*, exsec-pi*, aversin/pi, aexsec/pi)
2020-10-03T01:08:42Z Zipheir: Ooh, Antares launch in a few minutes.
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2020-10-03T01:12:02Z Zipheir: jcowan: I didn't see the renaming, but I'll have it implemented shortly.  Then a new draft, I guess.
2020-10-03T01:14:40Z Zipheir: Ah, and the hex string conversions now raise bytestring-errors.  Excellent.
2020-10-03T01:15:20Z Riastradh: jcowan: you should support hexadecimal floating-point notation
2020-10-03T01:15:20Z Riastradh: (number->string (atan 0 -1) #x10)
2020-10-03T01:15:20Z Riastradh: ;Value: "1.921fb54442d18p+1"
2020-10-03T01:15:38Z Riastradh: (an eminently familiar string of digits, no doubt, that countless nerds spend their early years memorizing)
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2020-10-03T01:20:14Z jcowan: if it comes to that, some probably memorize the bit string.
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2020-10-03T01:38:08Z Zipheir: Riastradh: "p+1"?  That's a hex notation?
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2020-10-03T01:56:55Z mirrorbird: oh man i finally finished my SICP interpreter
2020-10-03T01:57:11Z Riastradh: Zipheir: yes, that means `times 2^1'
2020-10-03T01:57:13Z mirrorbird: i had some annoying problems with primitives but now it all works so nicely
2020-10-03T02:02:01Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I don't get that format when evaluating that in CHICKEN, chibi, or Guile.  Is it documented somewhere?  Perhaps we could suggest it for SRFI 207.
2020-10-03T02:02:23Z Zipheir: mirrorbird: The metacircular one, or the one that runs on the SICP register machine?
2020-10-03T02:02:26Z Riastradh: Zipheir: perhaps
2020-10-03T02:02:50Z Riastradh: I don't know where it came from originally.  It's been in C since no later than C99.
2020-10-03T02:03:51Z Riastradh: Very easy to parse correctly rounded.
2020-10-03T02:04:08Z Riastradh: (at least on machines with IEEE 754 binary arithmetic)
2020-10-03T02:06:38Z Zipheir: Thanks.  I'll look at what C implements.
2020-10-03T02:07:28Z Riastradh: C99 6.4.4.2 Floating constants
2020-10-03T02:07:32Z Riastradh: pp. 57-58
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2020-10-03T02:12:47Z laertus: does anyone know if scheme's srfi's are available in Info format somewhere?
2020-10-03T02:13:04Z jcowan: Recent printf's can I/O it using %a/%A directives.
2020-10-03T02:13:31Z jcowan: laertus: Not likely.  The only official format is HTNL.
2020-10-03T02:13:44Z Riastradh: It's useful as a compact exact representation.
2020-10-03T02:14:11Z Riastradh: (flo:ulp 1.)
2020-10-03T02:14:11Z Riastradh: ;Value: 2.220446049250313e-16
2020-10-03T02:14:13Z Riastradh: (number->string (flo:ulp 1.) #x10)
2020-10-03T02:14:14Z Riastradh: ;Value: "1p-52"
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2020-10-03T02:15:26Z Riastradh: Of course, 2.220446049250313e-16 isn't exactly the number being represented either -- rather, it's 2.220446049250313080847263336181640625e-16.  2.220446049250313e-16 is just a shortest decimal approximation that will be rounded to it.
2020-10-03T02:15:52Z jcowan: Pandoc can generate Texinfo format from HTML, it says here.
2020-10-03T02:16:35Z laertus: cool
2020-10-03T02:17:47Z laertus: now if only srfi.schemers.org offered a way to download a well-compressed archive of all their srfi's...
2020-10-03T02:22:46Z mirrorbird: Zipheir, metacircular
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2020-10-03T02:50:54Z Zipheir: mirrorbird: Nice.
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2020-10-03T03:01:40Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Thanks for the C99 citation.  I'll definitely suggest support for floating-point hex in SRFI 207.
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2020-10-03T03:08:28Z Riastradh: What's the connection to SRFI 207?
2020-10-03T03:08:54Z Zipheir: Hex string to bytestring conversion.
2020-10-03T03:10:09Z Zipheir: Oh, but that's not actually relevant.
2020-10-03T03:13:27Z Zipheir: Fuzzy thinking, sorry.  The hex string stuff in 207 is just simple mappings between bytevectors and hex-encoded string representations.  The floating-point format would be something for string->number to support, I guess.
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2020-10-03T08:35:44Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-10-03T09:14:51Z amirouche: hello all :)
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2020-10-03T09:51:59Z amirouche: anyway know why using twitter api and others, there is two tokens to identify the user making a REST API call?
2020-10-03T09:52:06Z amirouche: s/anyway/anyone/
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2020-10-03T10:59:59Z ManDay: Let's assume you don't want to use a record to describe something object'ish. What policy/best practice would then determine whether you access the object transparently (obj-do-something my_obj a b c) or as a lambda (my_obj 'do-something a b c) ?
2020-10-03T11:00:29Z ManDay: I'd usually go for the first, does anyone disagree?
2020-10-03T11:02:21Z ManDay: Then again, sometimes "my_obj" has a typical, primary purpose which might more elegantly be accessed by the lambda version
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2020-10-03T15:59:59Z tokie: is there a decent tutorial on implementing a naive scheme interpreter in something like C? the only thing I know of is "build your own lisp", but the lisp departs quite heavily from scheme
2020-10-03T16:03:06Z sm2n: tokie, are you proficient in C?
2020-10-03T16:03:29Z tokie: yes
2020-10-03T16:03:36Z tokie: though, i would follow along in rust
2020-10-03T16:04:40Z sm2n: I would recommend reading the tinyscheme source
2020-10-03T16:05:23Z tokie: i'll take a look, thanks
2020-10-03T16:05:31Z Zipheir: tokie: http://peter.michaux.ca/articles/scheme-from-scratch-introduction
2020-10-03T16:06:09Z sm2n: there is also https://t3x.org/s9book/index.html
2020-10-03T16:06:19Z Zipheir: The SICP register machine interpreter is also  a good model.
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2020-10-03T19:20:31Z dTal: Hahaha I just ran Chibi Scheme's ./configure
2020-10-03T19:20:36Z dTal: word up
2020-10-03T19:22:48Z Riastradh: I have to disagree with the message there.
2020-10-03T19:23:11Z Riastradh: Hating on autoconf, while justifiable in the past, was a hobby rendered totally obsolete by the invention of cmake.
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2020-10-03T19:26:40Z Riastradh: Autoconf is merely a collection of expedient hacks built out of portable tools like m4 and sh that kind of got a little out of hand; cmake, in contrast, is fundamentally diabolical.
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2020-10-03T19:41:07Z dTal: I typed it out of habit, but I was mentally cringing in comparison to tinyscheme's simple Makefile
2020-10-03T19:41:16Z dTal: I let out a little cry of delight
2020-10-03T19:42:05Z dTal: I can honestly say that I have never failed to build a project that relied on Makefiles alone
2020-10-03T19:42:12Z dTal: they work every time
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2020-10-03T20:09:23Z amirouche: :)
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2020-10-03T21:28:32Z aeth: There's also scons. What could possibly go wrong with a build system built in Python? I mean, sure, maybe you lose a bit of performance but... oh, wait, there's a Python 2->3 thing? So that means that old versions of scons-built software require Python 2 to build, but new ones require Python 3 to build?
2020-10-03T21:29:57Z aeth: Heh, the 2->3 transition uninstalled scons entirely on my system. And the Python 3 scons is available, but not the Python 2 one. So now I'd have to build a build system to build old versions of some software.
2020-10-03T21:31:08Z aeth: And I bet the transition from Python 2 scons to Python 3 scons was done at a different point for every project, too...
2020-10-03T21:32:58Z aeth: dTal: When make works, make's great; however, it doesn't support paths with spaces in their name, which is a fatal flaw.
2020-10-03T21:33:48Z aeth: The flaw in new build systems is that they tried to do things differently instead of just fixing GNU make's flaws.
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2020-10-04T00:27:23Z mdhughes: But then https://xkcd.com/927/
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2020-10-04T00:35:11Z Blukunfando: The obvious solution being to kill everyone who’s ever heard of any of the standards but one.
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2020-10-04T00:39:49Z jcowan: Riastradh: Why would Chibi require cmake?
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2020-10-04T01:16:43Z phillbush: Hello, how can I initialize the seed for the random-integer procedure? Every time I run (random-integer 3) it evaluates to 2.
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2020-10-04T01:29:19Z jcowan: phillbush: In which Scheme implementation
2020-10-04T01:29:20Z jcowan: ?
2020-10-04T01:30:57Z phillbush: gambit
2020-10-04T01:41:07Z phillbush: I found out I need to (random-source-randomize! default-random-source) at the beginning of the program.
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2020-10-04T02:05:56Z Riastradh: jcowan: Chibi does not require cmake.  I was criticizing the criticism you get by running ./configure in Chibi on the grounds that autoconf has been obsoleted by a far more diabolical nemesis.
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2020-10-04T02:09:18Z Zipheir: I certainly don't like working with cmake, but what makes it so diabolical?
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2020-10-04T02:14:00Z jcowan: Well, I suppose Chibi could also be packaged with a CMakeLists.txt that printed much the same thing.
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2020-10-04T05:03:20Z mdhughes: I keep using shell scripts or even perl for building, because I know they'll always work (on Unix-like systems. I don't care about Windows users but they can use WSL or Cygwin)
2020-10-04T05:17:25Z Zipheir: make is a wonderful thing ("A beautiful little Prolog for the filesystem" --foof), but there is often a need for some extra shell-glue.
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2020-10-04T16:49:52Z ManDay: Is there a generic "make-reproducible/cache" funtion somewhere? I have a (lambda args ...) which is using a random source and I thought it would be quite typical to have that converted into a deterministic. does this func exist somewhere?
2020-10-04T16:51:31Z Riastradh: Typically such a thing is called `memoize'.
2020-10-04T16:52:14Z ManDay: ah
2020-10-04T16:52:58Z ManDay: hm "info guile" has nothing about memoize, so I guess that's my answer then
2020-10-04T16:53:02Z ManDay: thanks Riastradh
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2020-10-04T16:54:31Z ManDay: (for the record it does mention memoize but not what i need)
2020-10-04T16:54:49Z Riastradh: Also it is typically used when the function is deterministic, in order to save computation rather than to get reproducible results, but the same mechanism works to implement an operation that can be viewed in two ways -- either as caching a nondeterministic procedure, or as sampling from a probability distribution on deterministic functions.
2020-10-04T16:55:06Z Riastradh: In Venture this operation (typically viewed the latter way) is called `mem'.
2020-10-04T16:55:24Z ManDay: what does "in venture" mean?
2020-10-04T16:55:37Z Riastradh: Venture is a probabilistic programming language.
2020-10-04T16:57:33Z ManDay: now I'm distracted by venture ;-/
2020-10-04T16:58:38Z ManDay: ok... back to business
2020-10-04T16:58:40Z ManDay: :-P
2020-10-04T16:59:10Z Riastradh: http://probcomp.csail.mit.edu, https://github.com/probcomp/Venturecxx
2020-10-04T16:59:30Z ManDay: if you happen to disagree and there is a "mem" or something like that (either as a caching wrapper or as a pre-pass) in some srfi or so, please tell me
2020-10-04T16:59:39Z Riastradh: disagree?
2020-10-04T16:59:47Z Riastradh: I don't know if there's any memoization SRFI.
2020-10-04T17:00:10Z ManDay: well, that probably implies there is none in guile :P
2020-10-04T17:01:32Z Zipheir: Perhaps surprisingly, there doesn't seem to be a memoization SRFI.
2020-10-04T17:03:06Z Zipheir: I guess you could take advantage of the memoizing done by delay/force.
2020-10-04T17:03:33Z ManDay: well, that's probably more complicated then just my own 3 lines function :-P
2020-10-04T17:03:46Z ManDay: thanks tho for confirming Zipheir
2020-10-04T17:03:53Z ManDay: *than
2020-10-04T17:03:58Z ManDay: (getting late)
2020-10-04T17:19:16Z jcowan: I have a pre-pre-SRFI for memoizing.  There are a number of issues around it:  What is the equality predicate?  What is the dictionary?  What about multiple arguments? What about multiple values?
2020-10-04T17:20:10Z jcowan: Should it be a procedure, a macro, or both?
2020-10-04T17:23:37Z ManDay: yeah...
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2020-10-04T17:24:31Z ManDay: i guess with all this under it, I'm better off with my own function anyway. i only have an integer argument which runs from 0 to n
2020-10-04T17:25:07Z ManDay: good night everyone!
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2020-10-04T18:26:07Z phillbush: Have someone here read «The Scheme Programming Language» book, is it good/do you recommend it?
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2020-10-04T18:28:07Z mdhughes: phillbush: Yes, it's the best teach an experienced programmer to Scheme book. Much more practical orientation than most other books.
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2020-10-04T18:32:27Z phillbush: mdhughes: thanks, I'm gonna read it.
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2020-10-04T19:52:33Z cjv: I've been reading it recently
2020-10-04T19:52:50Z cjv: just gotta add some custom CSS if you are reading it online :P
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2020-10-04T20:14:28Z dTal: What's the absolute bare minimum RAM you need to "usefully" run Chibi Scheme? I've been contemplating attempting to port it to a platform with something like 100K
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2020-10-04T20:33:11Z jcowan: Well, it has a lot of ifdefs by which you can remove various parts you don't want.
2020-10-04T20:34:06Z jcowan: See https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/include/chibi/features.h
2020-10-04T20:39:09Z dTal: Well, this platform has plenty of storage, and the executables can be run directly from that, so it's really about heap size
2020-10-04T20:39:24Z dTal: I found this intruiging comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4625460
2020-10-04T20:39:43Z dTal: but there's a pretty big gap between 756KB and 10KB
2020-10-04T20:40:43Z dTal: to be exact, I can afford 188 KB of RAM
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2020-10-04T20:48:40Z jcowan: 10 KB isn't enough to do anything useful with the Scheme: all you get is primitive syntax.
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2020-10-04T20:56:23Z mdhughes: I would expect tinyscheme or something like that uses less for its core, so you might have enough left to do very simple things.
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2020-10-04T21:06:25Z mdhughes: I just checked, tinyscheme running a naïve fib eats 680k.
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2020-10-04T21:08:59Z Riastradh: With 10KB you might want Forth instead.
2020-10-04T21:18:54Z jcowan: Or even with 188KB
2020-10-04T21:19:23Z jcowan: You could write code in Linear Lisp and compile it to Forth off-platform.
2020-10-04T21:26:50Z Zipheir: A lisp with linear types would be a good direction for research in low-memory lisps.
2020-10-04T21:36:32Z Zipheir: jcowan: Should base64 decoding skip newlines, tabs, and spaces, or should it skip anything satsfying char-whitespace?
2020-10-04T21:37:50Z jcowan: I'd say that CRLF line endings are a real possibility, so why not just allow all 25 whitespace characters?
2020-10-04T21:38:21Z jcowan: (Linear in the sense that variables can only be referred to once.)
2020-10-04T21:39:18Z Zipheir: ASCII whitespace only?  I'm not sure I know what "all 25" denotes.
2020-10-04T21:40:38Z jcowan: https://web.archive.org/web/20200201103819/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ForthStack.html
2020-10-04T21:41:42Z Zipheir: Nah, there aren't 25 ASCII whitespace characters, no matter how broadly that's construed.
2020-10-04T21:42:08Z Riastradh: space htab vtab cr lf w h i t e s p a c e, that's 15
2020-10-04T21:44:34Z Zipheir: So char-whitespace? it is, then.
2020-10-04T21:44:55Z Riastradh: (`you counted ``e'' twice', you say?  that's ok, I can make up the difference with formfeed)
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2020-10-04T22:19:09Z jcowan: 25 Unicode characters appear in the Unicode White_Space list.  The ASCII ones are TAB, LF, VT, FF, CR, SP.  But what I intended is simply to call char-whitespace? and ignore any character that satisfies it.
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2020-10-04T22:20:10Z jcowan: See https://www.unicode.org/Public/UCD/latest/ucd/PropList.txt; the White_Space table appears at the top.
2020-10-04T22:20:26Z Riastradh: ignore any white characters who just take up space, like jared kushner
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2020-10-04T22:46:26Z Zipheir: jcowan: ACK.
2020-10-04T22:47:01Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I don't think we're likely to encounter him in a base64 string.  I hope not, at least.
2020-10-04T22:47:04Z jcowan: I've added and pushed char-whitespace? language
2020-10-04T22:47:36Z jcowan: Perhaps as an emoji.  Which will raise an error satisfying bytestring-error?.
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2020-10-05T04:03:38Z erkin: Has anyone attempted to make a portable C FFI wrapper for R7RS?
2020-10-05T04:04:10Z aeth: That would be very, very hard to do
2020-10-05T04:04:43Z erkin: There's a very spartan one for R6RS.
2020-10-05T04:05:05Z erkin: https://github.com/ktakashi/r6rs-pffi
2020-10-05T04:08:39Z erkin: Yuni ostensibly has one for both R6RS and R7RS but it seems incomplete: https://github.com/okuoku/yuni
2020-10-05T04:09:41Z erkin: It seems unwieldy to use though.
2020-10-05T04:12:21Z erkin: (spells foreign) only supports Ikarus, Racket and Ypsilon: https://github.com/rotty/spells/tree/master/spells/foreign
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2020-10-05T08:17:14Z ManDay: How would you usually invoke guile so as to have access to the interactive debugger?
2020-10-05T08:17:43Z ManDay: (running just `guile myscript.ss` will print the error and then terminate)
2020-10-05T08:19:04Z ManDay: In the past I've done this by removing the offending code from the file, then `guile -l script.ss` and interactively executing the problematic code. but that's a pain in the back and I can't believe there is no better way than that
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2020-10-05T09:02:20Z ManDay: The absolute *only* way I can find to execute commands *and* retain an interactive session is using a .guile init file
2020-10-05T09:03:14Z ManDay: jeez, as fantastic as I think guile is as scheme implementation, it's the worst compiler/interpreter that I have ever used
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2020-10-05T09:03:59Z ManDay: these buggy backtraces and entirely bogus debugging facilities just make it such a pain
2020-10-05T09:04:06Z ManDay: sorry for the rant...
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2020-10-05T10:57:58Z mdhughes: The main virtue of being an unfrozen caveman is I never need a debugger. Fix parse errors, recompile, add some tests & logging and deduce where any logic errors are, recompile, working code.
2020-10-05T10:58:54Z mdhughes: s/logging and/&, recompile, and/
2020-10-05T10:59:57Z mdhughes: Back in the day, compiles would take 20-60 minutes, so that process took a whole day, but I got to get up and get meals or exercise while waiting.
2020-10-05T11:04:13Z ManDay: mdhughes: that's all good and proper but using a debugger can just be simpler and quicker at times
2020-10-05T11:04:43Z ManDay: and technically there isn't any reason why it shouldn't work. guile can do it, it's just its CLI that's bogus
2020-10-05T11:05:18Z mdhughes: Probably so. I don't seem to mind it in Javascript, where the Safari console shows up on exceptions and breakpoints. I used it some in Objective-C where that's the only way to see a stack trace. But once a caveman, caveman ways are easiest.
2020-10-05T11:06:28Z mdhughes: Also it may be that you can set up an error handler in your code, and not rely on guile's standard one.
2020-10-05T11:06:47Z ManDay: yes, #guile suggested some workarounds which I'll try
2020-10-05T11:06:59Z ManDay: however, it's quite silly that guile doesn't simply support an according cli switch
2020-10-05T11:07:22Z ManDay: i mean, a debugger is not supposed to rely on error handlers in code. that's ugly
2020-10-05T11:07:31Z ManDay: (debugging process, as a whole)
2020-10-05T11:07:40Z mdhughes: In Chicken it's (current-exception-handler)
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2020-10-05T11:44:08Z lloda: at least from the repl guile gives you a debug repl by default on error, you can access the stack etc. you don't need your own error handler
2020-10-05T11:44:34Z lloda: see module/system/repl/common.scm
2020-10-05T11:45:13Z lloda: it's not the easiest thing to use, but you can get at the stack with something like (frame-arguments (vector-ref (debug-frames (repl-debug (car (fluid-ref *repl-stack*)))) 0))
2020-10-05T11:46:04Z lloda: i wish this was easier, because ,bt is too rigid imo
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2020-10-05T11:46:33Z ManDay: lloda: i don't need much. ,frame ,locals (though that stuff is often incomprehensible) and ,up make me happy
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2020-10-05T11:47:12Z ManDay: given the advice, i wrote a litte bash wrapper "guile-debug" which "embeds" my file (by a load) in call-with-execption-handling
2020-10-05T11:47:23Z ManDay: it's not utterly beautiful but it works sufficiently well now
2020-10-05T11:48:17Z ManDay: well, a whole morning spend on getting guile to work. maybe i can get actual work done, now ^^
2020-10-05T11:48:22Z lloda: yeah my problem with ,frame and such is that you can just print the stack, but not *grab* it
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2020-10-05T12:35:29Z amirouche: I asked the question countless, never got lead on how to do it.
2020-10-05T12:35:42Z amirouche: I asked the question countless times, never got a lead on how to do it.
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2020-10-05T12:43:44Z jcowan: Ask us again and we'll tell you the same!
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2020-10-05T12:47:32Z amirouche: it was in this channel.
2020-10-05T12:50:18Z jcowan: I was just riffing on you asking the same question twice in quick succession, but now I see you were correcting a (minor) error.
2020-10-05T12:52:11Z amirouche: I type too fast, I think too little, but I am not a cattle!
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2020-10-05T12:53:14Z amirouche: (I could listen to that speech an infinite amount of time, it does not perish!)
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2020-10-05T12:55:25Z amirouche: (ref to charlie chaplin "I do not want to be an emperor")
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2020-10-05T12:59:05Z Zipheir: rudybot: free initial object
2020-10-05T12:59:05Z rudybot: Zipheir: I am not a fixnum; I am a free initial object in the category of rings!
2020-10-05T13:09:10Z Zipheir: (Bob Seger would be proud--after he takes an algebra course.)
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2020-10-05T13:32:55Z ManDay: as a non-mathematician, i can't say I find that funny
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2020-10-05T13:41:26Z amirouche: i do not understand the joke either
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2020-10-05T14:55:36Z jcowan: All category theory jokes should contain "just a" and end with "What's the problem?"
2020-10-05T14:56:08Z jcowan: as in "A monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?"
2020-10-05T14:57:35Z Zipheir: Emily Riehl clearly liked that joke so much that she begins her chapter on monads with it. (http://www.math.jhu.edu/~eriehl/context.pdf)
2020-10-05T14:58:58Z gwatt: It's a pretty good joke
2020-10-05T14:58:59Z Zipheir: And "In category theory, a monad on a category C is nothing but a monoid in the monoidal category of endofunctors [C, C] over C." --SRFI 165
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2020-10-05T15:07:58Z jcowan: I've just added a paragraph to the abstract of my pre-SRFI for contexts:  "This SRFI contains no references to category theory."
2020-10-05T15:08:30Z Zipheir: MN-W may have something to say about that. :)
2020-10-05T15:15:56Z jcowan: So he may.
2020-10-05T15:16:37Z jcowan: What I need to do is figure out what contexts already exist and add them to the SRFI.
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2020-10-05T15:20:46Z Zipheir: jcowan: e.g. objects like those from SRFI 189 which already have -bind, functorial -map, etc.?
2020-10-05T15:21:17Z jcowan: Yes.  Also lists, vectors, potentially strings (though I am not sure the string monad has a lot of value)
2020-10-05T15:21:25Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-10-05T15:21:51Z jcowan: I probably should go through Haskell's list of what implements Monad and see which ones make sense to me.
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2020-10-05T15:24:13Z Zipheir: Like comparators, additional contexts could always be added in later SRFIs.
2020-10-05T15:42:59Z jcowan: Of course.  These would be only exemplary.
2020-10-05T15:44:26Z Zipheir: Lists, maybes, and state all make good examples.
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2020-10-05T17:35:03Z amirouche: Ah! Ah! Guess what?
2020-10-05T17:38:01Z gwatt: you figured out how to get a stackframe in guile?
2020-10-05T17:41:43Z ManDay: the suspense
2020-10-05T17:41:48Z ManDay: it's killing me
2020-10-05T17:42:12Z gwatt: I see you shiver, with antici-
2020-10-05T17:42:39Z ManDay: ci-WHAT?!
2020-10-05T17:42:59Z Zipheir: gwatt: Thanks, Frankie.
2020-10-05T17:43:10Z gwatt: pation
2020-10-05T17:43:27Z ManDay: *breathes heavily*
2020-10-05T17:44:57Z ManDay: Oh welp, I guess I will never know why amirouche said Ah Ah
2020-10-05T17:45:09Z ManDay: Probably hit his knee on the table
2020-10-05T17:45:13Z ManDay: Good night everyone!
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2020-10-05T17:45:34Z gwatt: "Ah! Ah! Guess what? I figured out how to keep you in suspense!"
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2020-10-05T17:46:53Z mdhughes: I have discovered a marvelous GC that requires no stop-the-world pauses, but this margin is too short to contain it.
2020-10-05T17:47:01Z gwatt: or maybe "Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Stayin' alive! Stayin' alive!"
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2020-10-05T17:50:34Z cjv: I still can't believe how fast chez scheme is
2020-10-05T17:50:45Z cjv: it seems unfair that such a dynamic language is so fast
2020-10-05T17:51:00Z cjv: i'm getting 80x python on some toy tasks
2020-10-05T17:51:32Z gwatt: python is pretty famously not fast
2020-10-05T17:51:55Z gwatt: cjv: have you compared against pypy?
2020-10-05T17:52:04Z cjv: that's a good idea
2020-10-05T17:52:20Z cjv: I normally can't use pypy because it doesn't support C FFI
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2020-10-05T17:54:58Z cjv: I'm just surprised because I consider Python a little less expressive and yet it is slower (?)
2020-10-05T17:55:15Z amirouche: I have a great idea!
2020-10-05T17:55:20Z amirouche: `:]
2020-10-05T17:55:58Z amirouche: cjv: speaking of that, I get 10x faster than python with ccse: https://hyper.dev/blog/ccse.html
2020-10-05T17:56:20Z amirouche: cjv: and as fast as the same program in C \o/
2020-10-05T17:56:24Z cjv: oh wow
2020-10-05T17:56:36Z cjv: i've been writing a text editor
2020-10-05T17:56:46Z amirouche: to be fully transparent, the C is called from python, but the gist of the code is C.
2020-10-05T17:56:51Z cjv: I'm trying to get C speeds for a PEG parser
2020-10-05T17:56:55Z amirouche: 10x faster is only python.
2020-10-05T17:57:08Z cjv: that's fair
2020-10-05T17:57:18Z Zipheir: Allegedly the T compiler used to produce faster code than the Pascal compilers of the day http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html
2020-10-05T17:57:19Z amirouche: mdhughes: I am not that smart!
2020-10-05T17:57:47Z amirouche: ManDay will be disapointed :/
2020-10-05T17:57:48Z Zipheir: cjv: PEG is generally pretty inefficient, so maybe a better parsing technique would get you better speeds.
2020-10-05T17:58:39Z Riastradh: maybe everyone should just use lalr
2020-10-05T17:58:48Z amirouche roll eyes
2020-10-05T17:58:50Z amirouche: :)
2020-10-05T17:59:13Z cjv: i'm doing packrat parsing
2020-10-05T17:59:24Z cjv: incremental packrat parsing
2020-10-05T18:00:02Z cjv: Zipheir so I think it will be expensive for memory but computers have enough where it shouldn't an problem
2020-10-05T18:00:33Z Riastradh: ...exponential growth is pretty fast, pretty sure computer memory isn't growing exponentially.
2020-10-05T18:00:44Z Zipheir: OK, I have only a passing familiarity with packrat parsers.  It does sound like they can be fast, at the expense of space.
2020-10-05T18:01:03Z Riastradh: `exponential megabytes and constantly swapping'
2020-10-05T18:01:11Z Zipheir: Eek, not good.
2020-10-05T18:01:57Z amirouche: cjv: what do you plan to do with a parser?
2020-10-05T18:02:01Z Zipheir: cjv: Is this for syntax highlighting?
2020-10-05T18:02:48Z cjv: I'm using it for completion, syntax hightlighting and text objects
2020-10-05T18:02:49Z Riastradh: Seems like if it has to run on users' source files that they open from arbitrary sources -- especially potentially very large ones, like clang's arm_neon.h -- you should be extra-concerned about limiting resource usage.
2020-10-05T18:03:07Z cjv: python just switched to a PEG parser
2020-10-05T18:04:08Z Riastradh: heh
2020-10-05T18:04:37Z Zipheir: Given that Python isn't LL(k), that sounds less than optimal.
2020-10-05T18:04:49Z cjv: I mean it's going to use memory equivalent to the size of the input
2020-10-05T18:04:53Z Riastradh: Python's rationale for flailing around with garbage like LL(1) and PEG:  `Thirty years ago the first author decided to go his own way with Python's parser rather than using LALR(1)....  The reasons wre primarily emotional (gut feelings, intuition).'
2020-10-05T18:05:31Z cjv: packrat parsing is overkill for most things, but I think it will be pretty reasonable as far as resource usage?
2020-10-05T18:05:33Z Riastradh: `Other variants of LR were not considered, nor was LL (e.g. ANTLR).  PEG was selected because it was easy to understand given a basic understanding of recursive-descent parsing.'
2020-10-05T18:05:35Z amirouche: There is also "good enough"?
2020-10-05T18:05:46Z cjv: PEG can also provide good errors
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2020-10-05T18:06:32Z Zipheir: Most parsing techniques can provide good errors.
2020-10-05T18:06:36Z cjv: https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.06444
2020-10-05T18:06:40Z Riastradh: Translation: we have no clue how parsing works and we didn't bother to do any homework, so we took an approach that closely resembles the dumbest technique imaginable.'
2020-10-05T18:06:40Z cjv: i'm also looking into this
2020-10-05T18:06:43Z amirouche: cjv: I still do python, outside poor performance, GIL nowadays, feature creap is eating me.
2020-10-05T18:07:04Z cjv: Riastradh, so you would suggest LALR(1)?
2020-10-05T18:07:08Z Riastradh: cjv: yes
2020-10-05T18:07:16Z amirouche: I guess +1 Riastradh, that is what I read about Python design decision all the time outside this channel.
2020-10-05T18:07:31Z cjv: I don't really like how treesitter works doe :/
2020-10-05T18:07:34Z Zipheir: If you want speed in a text editor, don't parse source files.
2020-10-05T18:07:40Z gwatt: Riastradh: I feel like every other conversation you have is recommending LALR
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2020-10-05T18:08:07Z cjv: Zipheir, I think it can be both :)
2020-10-05T18:08:14Z Zipheir: gwatt: Should I just write a Riastradhbot?
2020-10-05T18:08:40Z Riastradh: gwatt: welp, gotta atone for my railing on parsers years ago before I did my homework and had any clue what I was talking about.
2020-10-05T18:08:42Z cjv: I've also been thinking about how to cache the parsing
2020-10-05T18:08:46Z gwatt: if ($0 =~ "parsing") { print "You should use LALR"; }
2020-10-05T18:09:08Z amirouche: I would not start with the parsing and highlighting, especially for a scheme editor.
2020-10-05T18:09:22Z cjv: do you all have thoughts on data structures to use for the buffer?
2020-10-05T18:09:37Z cjv: I'm thinking of using a Relaxed Radix Balanced Tree
2020-10-05T18:09:39Z Zipheir: cjv: Piece table!
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2020-10-05T18:10:00Z cjv: piece table is another good choice
2020-10-05T18:10:15Z amirouche: cjv: I am looking into well balanced trees
2020-10-05T18:10:17Z Riastradh: LALR can also provide good errors.  Really good errors take some engineering to identify plausible mistakes in order to guess and report what the user might have meant, though.
2020-10-05T18:10:19Z Zipheir: It seems to be true: lots of text-editor development bogs down into endless tinkering with the syntax highlighting.
2020-10-05T18:10:25Z amirouche: what is the advantage of piece table?
2020-10-05T18:10:30Z cjv: easy undo
2020-10-05T18:10:35Z cjv: super fast at first
2020-10-05T18:10:49Z Zipheir: amirouche: Insert-only editing, load an entire file as one block.
2020-10-05T18:11:19Z cjv: syntax highlighting is only a part of it, I want to replace language servers
2020-10-05T18:11:23Z Zipheir: I especially like piece-tables implemented on top of zippers.
2020-10-05T18:11:59Z cjv: why zippers? i've always seen splay trees?
2020-10-05T18:12:09Z amirouche: I will look more into that, what I need is really fast datastructure that is persistent for undo. The text itself is small.
2020-10-05T18:12:33Z Zipheir: I'm only familiar with Wirth's Oberon version, which used a doubly-linked list.
2020-10-05T18:13:00Z jcowan: Zipheir: The current design of contexts is messy: there are up to six primitive procedures, but you never need more than three.  I'd like to have just three: fmap, sequenceA, and join, but I don't know that people will be happy with writing those.
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2020-10-05T18:15:28Z Zipheir: jcowan: I guess six might be the cost of flexibility.
2020-10-05T18:15:42Z Riastradh: cjv: What's particularly good about LALR (or LR) is that (a) you get a shift/reduce parser for guaranteed O(input length * grammar size) run time and space (and usually much smaller), and (b) the parser generator is an interactive tool that can report ambiguity and time/space costs up front during development.
2020-10-05T18:16:00Z cjv: oh I see
2020-10-05T18:16:04Z cjv: yeah that seems much better
2020-10-05T18:16:20Z Riastradh: PEG/packrat just quietly eats up exponential resources sometimes and silently resolves ambiguity without telling you that it's there.
2020-10-05T18:16:56Z Riastradh: Entire sections of the grammar might be dead code because of silent ambiguity resolution, and PEG/packrat won't bother to let you know.
2020-10-05T18:16:57Z Zipheir: jcowan: What's the context pre-SRFI's name for <*>?
2020-10-05T18:18:02Z Riastradh: cjv: NFAs and regular expressions are good too, particularly in a form like lex where you can associate an action with a regular expression in each state.
2020-10-05T18:18:54Z cjv: I don't know much about those :/
2020-10-05T18:18:59Z cjv: I'll read up on them
2020-10-05T18:19:16Z Riastradh: Similar deal, for smaller class of languages: you get a state machine with guaranteed O(input length) time and O(1) space.
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2020-10-05T18:20:21Z Zipheir: Riastradh: One thing I wish Scheme had was a little drop-in lex-like thing which could be used to generate tokes and do things with them.
2020-10-05T18:20:28Z Zipheir: Oops, s/tokes/tokens/
2020-10-05T18:20:46Z Riastradh: scheming for a bong hit, I see
2020-10-05T18:20:47Z amirouche: cjv: you plan to write a LSP for scheme or a full editor?
2020-10-05T18:20:49Z Zipheir: And yes, I have a copy of lex-test.scm.
2020-10-05T18:20:54Z cjv: full editor
2020-10-05T18:20:55Z Riastradh: Zipheir: lex.scm?
2020-10-05T18:21:55Z jcowan: I should annotate the pre-SRFI with the Haskell names, though some don't have just one because Haskell insists on monomorphism
2020-10-05T18:23:34Z amirouche: cjv: fwiw, I maintain arew on top of Chez https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme AND I need a new editor, I even started one using finger trees.
2020-10-05T18:23:53Z cjv: perfect!
2020-10-05T18:23:55Z amirouche: cjv: what do you plan to use for gui?
2020-10-05T18:24:04Z cjv: oh god the GUI has became a nightmare
2020-10-05T18:24:09Z cjv: I wanted to use skia
2020-10-05T18:24:32Z cjv: but it's hard to compile on my Mac
2020-10-05T18:24:45Z amirouche: on which surface do you render skia?
2020-10-05T18:24:51Z amirouche: I mean surface or window?
2020-10-05T18:25:21Z cjv: So i'm using cairo with gtk right now
2020-10-05T18:25:35Z cjv: I didn't end up using skia :/
2020-10-05T18:26:19Z amirouche: oh
2020-10-05T18:26:32Z amirouche: where do gtk bindings come from? or did you write your own bindings?
2020-10-05T18:26:40Z cjv: I wrote my own bindings
2020-10-05T18:26:45Z amirouche: x)
2020-10-05T18:26:56Z cjv: I don't support much of a GUI to be clear
2020-10-05T18:27:02Z amirouche: like you draw gdk pix buffer a cairo surface?
2020-10-05T18:27:30Z amirouche: with the word in the correct order: you draw a cairo surface on a gtk pixel buffer?
2020-10-05T18:27:36Z cjv: yeah
2020-10-05T18:27:59Z cjv: very similar to emacs honestly
2020-10-05T18:28:27Z amirouche: I am not familiar with emacs rendering.
2020-10-05T18:28:54Z cjv: Emacs also uses GTK and Cairo
2020-10-05T18:29:15Z amirouche: my prototype rely on a terminal, so it is TUI
2020-10-05T18:29:45Z amirouche: but the TUI has some limitation regarding what you can represent. The advantage is that it can work almost anywhere chez works.
2020-10-05T18:30:03Z cjv: I started by supporting terminal and even wrote a ncurses replacement
2020-10-05T18:30:25Z cjv: But I don't like the restrictions terminal places on the UI
2020-10-05T18:31:27Z cjv: it's really frustrating how there aren't any real alteratives to Cairo
2020-10-05T18:31:36Z amirouche: state of art gui of code editors is not much more fancy than a TUI imo
2020-10-05T18:31:48Z cjv: yeah
2020-10-05T18:31:55Z amirouche: what is the problem with cairo?
2020-10-05T18:32:06Z cjv: doesn't use the GPU
2020-10-05T18:32:08Z amirouche: oh
2020-10-05T18:32:47Z cjv: I want to have stuff like LaTeX live preview (someday) and smooth scrolling, so I'm going with a GUI solution
2020-10-05T18:32:52Z cjv: I also think the latency should be better
2020-10-05T18:33:05Z cjv: (than most terminal emulators)
2020-10-05T18:33:53Z amirouche: it makes sense.
2020-10-05T18:37:44Z amirouche: cjv: did you consider blend2d?
2020-10-05T18:37:55Z cjv: I did, but it doesn't seem to support text?
2020-10-05T18:38:45Z cjv: or at least on their roadmap it says "advanced text layout pending"
2020-10-05T18:38:57Z cjv: same with "glyph caching"
2020-10-05T18:39:47Z amirouche: advanced text layout for monospace rendering might not be necessary, anyway, it might be too early to go that route.
2020-10-05T18:40:13Z amirouche: too early in the life of blend2d
2020-10-05T18:41:41Z cjv: that's true, but glyph caching seems very important for what is basiclly a terminal emulator?
2020-10-05T18:43:05Z amirouche: I do not know... the thing is the website _seems_ the same since day 1 so I am wondering if it is up-to-date
2020-10-05T18:44:32Z cjv: nanosvg seemed the best, but it's dead :(
2020-10-05T18:44:54Z amirouche: yeah
2020-10-05T18:45:34Z amirouche: MAYBE the next 2d rendering lib will have a cairo api
2020-10-05T18:45:54Z wasamasa: cjv: ITYM, emacs is using xlib and gtk and cairo
2020-10-05T18:46:03Z wasamasa: cjv: otherwise there would be no need for the pgtk fork
2020-10-05T18:46:13Z cjv: oh TIL, my bad
2020-10-05T18:51:37Z wasamasa: if it's just gtk and cairo, it would automatically work with wayland
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2020-10-05T20:20:36Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-10-05T21:31:49Z sm2n: cjv, check out https://github.com/makepad/makepad, the guy basically wrote his own stack all the way up
2020-10-05T21:32:29Z cjv: wild
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2020-10-05T21:45:12Z jcowan: Zipheir: The point of using fmap, sequenceA, join is that fmap is minimal for a functor context, fmap + sequenceA is minimal for an idiom (applicative functor) context, and fmap + sequenceA + join (or bind will also do) is minimal for a monad context.  That stacks them up very nicely.
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2020-10-05T22:18:31Z foof: chibi probably uses less heap than tiny for various reasons (bytecode instead of tree interpreter, immediate symbols), though you may need to tweak compile time options (disable debug info) and there's no doubt room for improvement.
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2020-10-05T22:50:47Z Zipheir: jcowan: Yes, that makes sense.  LGTM.
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2020-10-06T03:51:38Z mrkotfw: For chez, is (pretty-format) able to be configured to do line breaks at the end of every proper list?
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2020-10-06T06:09:29Z 
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2020-10-06T08:23:24Z liulanghaitun: chez scheme how to load chez.init at start
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2020-10-06T08:24:03Z liulanghaitun: https://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/slib/Installation.html
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2020-10-06T10:06:59Z amirouche: https://bobkonf.de/2021/en/cfc.html
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2020-10-06T13:45:20Z dTal: Cyclone Scheme on the front page of HN
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2020-10-06T13:51:01Z ManDay: does anyone here use it?
2020-10-06T13:51:18Z ManDay: i'd be most interested in here how good it has of a debugger x-D
2020-10-06T14:01:53Z amirouche: I read mitscheme debugger is good
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2020-10-06T14:19:00Z ManDay: Well thanks, I haven't tried mit before
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2020-10-06T15:42:31Z wasamasa: > To the Cyclone devs, If you want real-world users make sure you address the glaring documentation issues.
2020-10-06T15:42:57Z wasamasa: not sure what that person is talking about, but then, I'm an advanced documentation reader
2020-10-06T15:46:13Z jcowan: People aren't used to the idea of "The standard describes how this program works, so see that."
2020-10-06T15:46:17Z jcowan: Any more.
2020-10-06T15:46:46Z jcowan: Although Fortran compilers aren't usually expected to include the Fortran standard in their docs (copyright issues aside).
2020-10-06T15:47:22Z Zipheir: Single-implementation-language brain-damage.
2020-10-06T15:48:10Z Zipheir: "Where's the build system, and the package-manager, and the IDE, and, and ..."
2020-10-06T15:49:18Z Frankenstein: wasamasa: is an advanced documentation writer just someone who reads documentation?
2020-10-06T15:49:34Z Frankenstein: s/writer/reader/
2020-10-06T15:50:23Z cpressey: Haskell has this one right, they've got a standard specification AND a single implementation
2020-10-06T15:51:22Z wasamasa: nah
2020-10-06T15:51:30Z wasamasa: before ghc took over the world there was huggs
2020-10-06T15:51:30Z Zipheir: The single implementation there is eclipsing the standard completely.
2020-10-06T15:55:57Z Zipheir: The Haskell situation is a bit like if Racket were the only working Scheme implementation.
2020-10-06T15:56:26Z wasamasa: yeah
2020-10-06T15:56:32Z wasamasa: not something to look forward to
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2020-10-06T16:05:58Z amirouche: Frankenstein: x)
2020-10-06T16:06:51Z amirouche: Zipheir: going forward, it will be more on more difficult to compete feature wise at least with things like "where is my favorite library..."
2020-10-06T16:08:32Z Zipheir: amirouche: That's a losing game, since the number of "favorite libraries" is constantly increasing.
2020-10-06T16:09:45Z amirouche: yeah
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2020-10-06T17:37:16Z jcowan: There are three kinds of languages: those with one implementation like Perl 4, those with a dominant implementation which all others must follow, like Python, and those with no dominant implementation, like Scheme.
2020-10-06T17:42:13Z Zipheir: Four: Some languages have no implementation.  Some of the most historically-important languages fall into that category.
2020-10-06T17:42:55Z pinoaffe: and I'd probably consider scheme a group of languages rather than a language
2020-10-06T17:44:43Z Zipheir: The majority of "Schemes" are probably at least R4RS-compliant, so that does make them Schemes, not Scheme-likes.
2020-10-06T17:45:49Z Zipheir: Again, single-implementation-language thinking leads to very strict ideas of what constitutes a language.  Scheme standards are pretty flexible.
2020-10-06T17:47:17Z Zipheir: ("Strict" in one sense, and very unstrict in another--many single/dominant-implementation languages don't have formal semantics of any kind.)
2020-10-06T17:48:28Z pinoaffe: Zipheir: But still, for something to be considered "a scheme" it has to have hardly any interoperability with other schemes
2020-10-06T17:48:54Z Zipheir: wat
2020-10-06T17:51:40Z pinoaffe: Zipheir: I'm mostly thinking of small/toy/esoteric/special purpose schemes, there are tons of those
2020-10-06T17:52:46Z Zipheir: OK.  Yes, those are usually Scheme-likes in the sense that they're missing important aspects, e.g. first-class continuations, tail-call optimization, etc.
2020-10-06T17:54:51Z Zipheir: So there are many Schemes, and many more Scheme-like languages, but there is a distinction, I think.
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2020-10-06T18:18:41Z jcowan: The number of those in ImplementationContrasts is really quite small; I'd say Bigloo is the largest Scheme-alike out there
2020-10-06T18:19:33Z jcowan: Zipheir: Do you mean by your class 4 that they do not have implementations now, or that they never had any?  I can't think of any that meet the latter restriction.
2020-10-06T18:23:38Z Zipheir: I was thinking of things like λ-calculus, π calculus, Squiggol, etc.
2020-10-06T18:25:05Z Zipheir: But it depends what one means by "implementation".  YACC implements BNF, I suppose.
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2020-10-06T18:35:01Z gwatt: There are probably esolangs without an implementation
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2020-10-06T19:35:01Z jcowan: Zipheir: I don't think I think of those as programming languages at all, though I would be hard pressed to defend the distinction.
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2020-10-07T03:39:11Z mrkotfw: What is the general opinion of procedures that could take in an argument that could an integer or a symbol (as an example)?
2020-10-07T03:52:35Z jcowan: What sort of procedure would that be?
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2020-10-07T04:14:13Z mrkotfw: I'm writing an assembler, and I'm handling label (symbol) vs. addresses (integers)
2020-10-07T04:14:40Z Riastradh: Generally I'd be inclined to make that two separate procedures.
2020-10-07T04:15:00Z mrkotfw: I have a procedure: (asm-label-ref <state-record> <label-addr>) -> label
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2020-10-07T04:36:51Z mdhughes: Polymorphism is always the clearer way to go if the language supports it.
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2020-10-07T08:08:54Z amirouche: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2020-10-07T13:26:09Z amirouche: might be interesting to anyone that wants to improve json or xml (or anything?) traversal https://chrispenner.ca/posts/traversal-systems
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2020-10-07T15:21:42Z siraben: Is the netsplit appearing just for me (matrix user) or for anyone else
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2020-10-07T15:40:59Z jcowan: mrkotfw: I stand on the (slippery) slope between mdhughes and Riastradh.  I think label/address interchangeability makes a lot of sense here, but I don't think polymorphism is *always* a win.
2020-10-07T15:46:24Z mdhughes: There's probably some point where (dostuff x) makes no sense for *every* type, but for a reasonable set of types in and out, yes.
2020-10-07T15:49:44Z siraben: mdhughes: Yeah, that's why I like the idea of typeclasses so much, since you want something to be polymorphic for all types but only ones that are members of a typeclass.
2020-10-07T15:50:54Z siraben: the funny thing with polymorphism is that when you start tasting it, one could develop the desire for increasingly exotic forms (parametric → ad-hoc → impredicative → universe)
2020-10-07T15:51:49Z mdhughes: Oh, I don't do strong typing, beyond the basic system types. Type checking as an assert/cond in your method? Great. Specified by the compiler? Slows down creating new code.
2020-10-07T15:52:53Z siraben: Heh, mdhughes do you place a lot of importance on compilation time?
2020-10-07T15:53:00Z gwatt: Eh, you pay the typing cost one way or another.
2020-10-07T15:53:03Z mdhughes: Having a class hierarchy can be useful in model code, but even there I use duck-typing, not (duck-type? x)
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2020-10-07T15:53:51Z mdhughes: Well, I certainly avoid having compilation time anymore, because I grew up with 20-60 minute compiles. But chez runs fast without any visible compile time.
2020-10-07T15:54:13Z siraben: What took 20-60 minutes to compile in the past? Dang.
2020-10-07T15:54:19Z siraben: Yeah, I want my type errors to be shown at compile, rather than at runtime.
2020-10-07T15:54:46Z gwatt: siraben: at my job our CI servers take between 20-30 minutes for most of our services
2020-10-07T15:54:54Z mdhughes: Everything above a hello.c. Back in the '80s-'90s, compilers were slow.
2020-10-07T15:55:06Z siraben: gwatt:  sounds painful.
2020-10-07T15:55:35Z siraben: speaking of compilation, if anyone here uses Nix, I've added cyclone-scheme as a PR (#99939) to nixpkgs
2020-10-07T15:55:40Z mdhughes: Strong typing catches only the most trivial errors, which your unit tests will catch anyway. And unit tests will actually tell you if your code is correct, not just "matching types".
2020-10-07T15:55:49Z Riastradh: heh
2020-10-07T15:55:58Z gwatt: siraben: it used to be worse. We used to have one thing that took 1.5 hours to compile instead of 50 things which take 20-30 minutes
2020-10-07T15:56:10Z siraben: Eh, but you're just using unit tests in lieu of strong types now.
2020-10-07T15:56:23Z siraben: gwatt:  mind-boogling
2020-10-07T15:56:33Z siraben: boggling*
2020-10-07T15:56:50Z gwatt: siraben: Don't use scala if you want fast compile times.
2020-10-07T15:56:54Z siraben: You can move a lot of the correctness conditions into the type level, even.
2020-10-07T15:56:56Z Riastradh: ideological objecttion to type systems do based on a misapprehension of what they do because of a bad experience 30 years ago
2020-10-07T15:57:07Z siraben: I use Haskell, so yeah I've seen some slow compilation times.
2020-10-07T15:57:25Z mdhughes: You cannot prove code correct with a machine. Only by thinking about the edge cases and making asserts.
2020-10-07T15:57:27Z siraben: however, reloading in GHCi is fast, so it's not so much of a problem
2020-10-07T15:57:46Z gwatt: siraben: Though I think most of the time is spent in dependency resolution, because sbt/ivy is slow.
2020-10-07T15:57:59Z siraben: what's sbt/ivy?
2020-10-07T15:58:10Z gwatt: It's the dependency manager / build tool
2020-10-07T15:58:24Z gwatt: sbt is "simple build tool" and ivy is the dependency manager
2020-10-07T15:58:36Z siraben: You can prove code correct with a machine, actually (via dependent types). In industry techniques like property-based testing are gaining traction.
2020-10-07T15:58:37Z siraben: Ah I see
2020-10-07T15:58:40Z mdhughes: Riastradh: My objections aren't ideological, but practical. They're not based on a misapprehension. They're not from 30 years ago but from 40 years of experience actual programming against them.
2020-10-07T15:59:11Z siraben: mdhughes:  but have you seen expressive type systems? Java-style typing (without generics, etc.) is just awful.
2020-10-07T16:00:02Z mdhughes: siraben: Yes, I've been forced to deal with Haskell and Swift. It's utterly useless, you spend hours chasing types when you could do an assert in seconds.
2020-10-07T16:00:19Z siraben: lol, to each their own I suppose.
2020-10-07T16:00:44Z siraben: IME the type checker tells me exactly where I was inconsistent and makes refactoring a breeze.
2020-10-07T16:01:18Z siraben: there's also stuff like typed holes to ask GHC what it expects at a specific place in an expression
2020-10-07T16:01:44Z siraben: :t not _
2020-10-07T16:01:47Z mdhughes: You wouldn't need to do any of that if you just let anything that responds to a message, respond to it.
2020-10-07T16:01:48Z siraben: <interactive>:1:5: error:
2020-10-07T16:01:48Z siraben:     • Found hole: _ :: Bool
2020-10-07T16:02:02Z Zipheir: We have established several times on this channel that mdhughes is not a fan of static typing.  And that is OK.
2020-10-07T16:02:20Z mdhughes: ATTENTION CARBON UNIT: COMPLETE PROGRAM TO MY SATISFACTION
2020-10-07T16:02:31Z siraben: Ah, I didn't know before that mdhughes was so opposed to static typing.
2020-10-07T16:03:00Z siraben: I'll just stop here, then.
2020-10-07T16:03:04Z mdhughes: Fair enough. Of course, that's what makes Scheme interesting to me.
2020-10-07T16:03:37Z siraben: OTOH one of the reasons I like Scheme is because it's not statically typed.
2020-10-07T16:04:15Z siraben: It's easy to implement them, and even possible to do so via the (ironically, strongly typed) semantics at the end of R5RS spec.
2020-10-07T16:04:21Z siraben: s/them/Scheme
2020-10-07T16:04:49Z mdhughes: The main problem I initially had was the testing frameworks are inadequate, but Chicken has `test` and for Chez I wrote a test runner over SRFI-64, so it's all fine now.
2020-10-07T16:06:26Z Zipheir: Gradually-typed Scheme is a fascinating future direction (in POSIX-speak).
2020-10-07T16:11:07Z siraben: Zipheir:  do you know if it's been attempted?
2020-10-07T16:11:42Z mdhughes: Also may be of interest: https://con.racket-lang.org October 16-18, 2020
2020-10-07T16:12:55Z mdhughes: I'm hoping at some point they explain what "Spritely Goblins" is actually useful for, because I've read the web page several times and can't make ears or teeth of it.
2020-10-07T16:13:14Z Zipheir: In 2006 Siek & Taha wrote a paper on gradually-typed Scheme, which avoided all of the horrible up/down-casting of other systems, and this work may have been used in typed Racked.
2020-10-07T16:13:29Z Zipheir: Racket, even.
2020-10-07T16:14:20Z Zipheir: I'm not sure if anyone has made use of Wadler, et al's "blame" notion of contracts for dynamic types, yet.  I'm very interested in seeing how this could be applied.
2020-10-07T16:14:58Z Zipheir: And now there's research into gradual linear and gradual dependent types to read.  A lot of very interesting work.
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2020-10-07T16:17:48Z siraben: Whoa, gradual linear and dependent types, fascinating.
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2020-10-07T16:28:00Z gwatt: mdhughes: https://spritelyproject.org/
2020-10-07T16:28:19Z mdhughes: Yes, that's the site I've read and don't know what it's good for.
2020-10-07T16:29:13Z mdhughes: Some of the (developers? performance artists?) get RT'd into my Fediverse feed a lot.
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2020-10-07T16:31:39Z Zipheir: It looks like a big, grandiose project that could only have originated in California.
2020-10-07T16:36:48Z gwatt: I'm getting urbit flashbacks
2020-10-07T16:37:38Z mdhughes: Or SOLID https://inrupt.com/solid
2020-10-07T16:38:10Z siraben: When I see SOLID capitalized like I think OOP
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2020-10-07T17:18:17Z wasamasa: rudybot: racket? it's a con!
2020-10-07T17:18:28Z rudybot: wasamasa: ya, we talked about it at racket-con. I can probably reproduce what I had in about 30 minutes, but bleh. I also have a chrome book, so it's hard to debug pict code over ssh
2020-10-07T17:19:29Z dTal: that Spritely thing really does read like urbit with cuter illustrations
2020-10-07T17:20:13Z dTal: someone looked at urbit and thought "you know what this needs? pokemon mascots!"
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2020-10-07T17:21:30Z gwatt: I knew someone at college who was super into urbit.
2020-10-07T17:21:52Z Zipheir: All Schemes are cons.
2020-10-07T17:21:53Z gwatt: I think he actually got an internship where he worked on/with it
2020-10-07T17:22:05Z dTal: I was gonna say, how does one "get into" it
2020-10-07T17:22:42Z gwatt: I have no idea, he was into way before the internship.
2020-10-07T17:22:51Z gwatt: I still don't know what it is or why it is
2020-10-07T17:22:58Z Riastradh: ...maybe an urbit -- whatever an urbit is -- without the nazis is an improvement on the urbit with all the nazis.
2020-10-07T17:23:17Z amirouche: +1
2020-10-07T17:23:42Z gwatt: I ... I guess? I mean any $thing without nazis is an improvement on $thing with nazis
2020-10-07T17:24:14Z amirouche: spritely goblins is a way to extend mastodon to work without a central web server
2020-10-07T17:24:37Z amirouche: mdhughes: the main take-away is that ^
2020-10-07T17:25:08Z amirouche: in particular, it allows to put your id on usb key and connect from anywhere...
2020-10-07T17:25:34Z jcowan: Typed Racket does gradual typing, yes.
2020-10-07T17:25:36Z mdhughes: But you can already run your own fedi server.
2020-10-07T17:26:00Z mdhughes: Preferably Pleroma, not Mastodon, if you're not hosting 10,000 people.
2020-10-07T17:26:04Z jcowan: "All Schemes are cons, but some Schemers are pros."
2020-10-07T17:26:25Z amirouche: but there lots of stuff about ocaps that I still do not understand the purpose, something along the line of bitcoin stuff, where you give auth to someone and that someone can do things with it...
2020-10-07T17:26:28Z mdhughes: Some vehicles are cars, some are cdrs.
2020-10-07T17:26:53Z gwatt: You can get a bumper sticker reading "My other car is a cdr"
2020-10-07T17:26:54Z Riastradh: gwatt: (not a joke, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Yarvin)
2020-10-07T17:27:14Z amirouche: mdhughes: yes, but your data is only on your webserver, whereas in fact spritely goblin is peer-to-peer network, so even if your server crash, you _might_ be able to retrieve most of it from the p2p cloud.
2020-10-07T17:27:47Z amirouche: they avoid the term p2p for some reason.
2020-10-07T17:27:49Z mdhughes: amirouche: You can just reinstall a fedi server on the same domain, and it'll fill in some of your timeline anyway.
2020-10-07T17:28:24Z amirouche: mdhughes: but not your personal toots / messages, those are gone forever (except people having copies)
2020-10-07T17:28:56Z mdhughes: Except my DO droplet does a daily backup.
2020-10-07T17:29:08Z amirouche: mdhughes: yeah, that is still centralized :)
2020-10-07T17:29:53Z dTal: I dunno, Wolfenstein without the Nazis definitely wouldn't be as good
2020-10-07T17:29:54Z mdhughes: Also generally running your own server not hosted at a data center sucks, and your ISP will probably shut you off.
2020-10-07T17:30:07Z gwatt: Riastradh: ah, thanks. That uh, probably explains a little bit about why my acquaintance was so into urbit.
2020-10-07T17:30:21Z amirouche: mdhughes: you do not know what p2p mean, do you?
2020-10-07T17:31:00Z mdhughes: I do, I wrote and worked on a P2P startup back in the '00s. It was a fiasco, and it's gotten fiascier since then.
2020-10-07T17:31:04Z amirouche: mdhughes: in practice, you send some data in the p2p "cloud" then people download it there somewhere in the cloud, not necessarly on your own "server"
2020-10-07T17:32:07Z amirouche: actually because of the you hash everything, it is very unlikely people will download _your_ things from _your_ computer if there is a lot of user in the p2p network.
2020-10-07T17:32:20Z mdhughes: Just because every peer has a server doesn't make it not a server, and you end up serving 3rd-party requests until your upstream is saturated.
2020-10-07T17:32:39Z amirouche: yeah, you serve data for other users sure.
2020-10-07T17:32:42Z Riastradh: gwatt: ...`heh'
2020-10-07T17:32:46Z amirouche: it can become saturated.
2020-10-07T17:33:06Z Riastradh: dTal: Isn't the goal in Wolfenstein to get rid of the Nazis?  Don't you win when you succeed at that?
2020-10-07T17:33:25Z mdhughes: Imagine bittorrent where you have all of archive.org stored. No one user has to serve all of that, but any user who tries is going to get Comcast very mad.
2020-10-07T17:34:51Z amirouche: mdhughes: the way the dht works is because of the hash, the data is spread randomly in the network, even if you have the whole archive.org, people will not download it at your computer because they do not know you have it (except if they ask).
2020-10-07T17:35:20Z dTal: Riastradh: yes, and in tennis the object is to get the ball as far away from yourself as possible. Yet people still inexplicably buy tennis balls and take them to the court
2020-10-07T17:35:22Z mdhughes: So after we got a bunch of our beta testers banned from their ISPs, we rethought things and put more servers in data centers, and then shut down because pirated music is a liability.
2020-10-07T17:35:47Z amirouche: (and they are not supposed to ask you if you have it except if you are near one of the chunk of archives.org)
2020-10-07T17:36:04Z amirouche: mdhughes: apparantly, it is geared toward games and muds
2020-10-07T17:36:10Z amirouche: mdhughes: that prolly why they avoid the term p2p!
2020-10-07T17:36:28Z Riastradh: dTal: i never could figure out sportsball
2020-10-07T17:36:32Z amirouche: also apparantly ocaps is supposed to help games and muds.
2020-10-07T17:37:15Z mdhughes: It'll be interesting to see if it can do anything for games, but my experience is you *really* need a single server because people hate lag.
2020-10-07T17:38:03Z amirouche: mdhughes: that is the big problem! I do not see a realtime game over the DHT. If you overlay a network on top of the DHT like bittorrent does, it can work.
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2020-10-07T17:39:08Z amirouche: The DHT would serve as somekind of dynamic dns to locate users of a particular game or instance, just like bittorrent figure who seeds what in the dht (afaiu)
2020-10-07T17:41:11Z amirouche: I am wondering how great or not great is the code of spritely goblin... I mean I read some of their past work, it was not great. That is clearly network and star system at play, I for the first I am knowledgeable about most of it.
2020-10-07T17:46:44Z mdhughes: I've been browsing old racket-con videos, and this is hilarious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vtC7WEN76w
2020-10-07T17:47:04Z Zipheir: Program legibility and mascot art quality seem to be inversely proportional..
2020-10-07T17:47:22Z wasamasa: what does that say about the guile redesign?
2020-10-07T17:49:14Z mdhughes: Gerbil's pretty clean, just poorly documented, and has a cute mascot.
2020-10-07T17:51:20Z amirouche: cute mascot is not as good as a massive foss-culture hit.
2020-10-07T17:51:50Z jcowan: Of course, many people are behind absolute ISP firewalls that block all incoming connections (otherwise they have to pay for a business account at many multiples of the normal price), which means P2P can't work unless most people keep the app running (start it at boot time, etc.)
2020-10-07T17:52:20Z amirouche: jcowan: hole punching?
2020-10-07T17:52:22Z jcowan: "Massive FOSS-culture hit" would be beating the GPL in court.
2020-10-07T17:52:35Z amirouche: ?
2020-10-07T17:53:01Z jcowan: With hole punching, it's not exactly P2P any more.
2020-10-07T17:53:29Z jcowan: "Hit" in the sense of "paying for a hit on someone" or "hitman".
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2020-10-07T17:54:37Z amirouche: sorry, I do not understand :)
2020-10-07T17:55:44Z mdhughes: Leave the gun, take the cannoli.
2020-10-07T17:56:19Z amirouche: french say "hit" for a famous song.
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2020-10-07T17:56:56Z mdhughes: In French: Leave the gun, take the baguette.
2020-10-07T17:57:04Z amirouche: X)
2020-10-07T17:58:44Z Riastradh: `a hit' is sometimes `a murder'
2020-10-07T17:58:48Z Riastradh: `hitman' = `assassin'
2020-10-07T17:59:05Z Riastradh: `hit job' = news article that trashes its subject
2020-10-07T17:59:15Z amirouche: oh ok!
2020-10-07T17:59:33Z amirouche: they I wrote the opposite of what i wanted to write
2020-10-07T17:59:51Z mdhughes: A murder is a group of crows.
2020-10-07T18:00:05Z amirouche: the one doing the drawing for spritely goblin is the one making almost all the drawing in krita kde app
2020-10-07T18:00:27Z Riastradh: `hole-punching' is _not_, in fact, making a hole in someone with a bullet, but rather merely making a network connection through a firewall.
2020-10-07T18:00:57Z amirouche: yes of course :)
2020-10-07T18:02:29Z amirouche: krita is new goto application to make drawings that is open-source.
2020-10-07T18:02:44Z amirouche: I tried it, it very neat.
2020-10-07T18:03:50Z mdhughes: I ran across it on my "tour the top 20 horrors/programs of Linux" post last year, and it was the only nice FOSS program I've ever seen.
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2020-10-07T18:13:44Z jcowan: "hit" is also used for something that is a success in English, so I understood you, I was just making a pun.
2020-10-07T18:13:52Z jcowan: (songs, plays, movies)
2020-10-07T18:14:36Z jcowan: books even, though "a hit book" might be genuinely ambiguous
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2020-10-07T18:42:58Z Zipheir: amirouche: Unfortunately, they (Krita) haven't adopted Scheme yet, so GIMP still has a little bit of an edge.
2020-10-07T18:43:32Z Zipheir: (Though not the most recent releases of GIMP, which have, IME, been extremely unstable.)
2020-10-07T18:46:17Z gwatt: Aren't krita and gimp going for different features? I thought krita was more for creating digital art from scratch and gimp was for editing existing images
2020-10-07T18:47:42Z Zipheir: Yes, Wikipedia says Krita is "designed primarily for digital painting and 2D animation".
2020-10-07T18:48:31Z Zipheir: But Krita doesn't seem to be "scriptable" at all, let alone in Scheme.
2020-10-07T18:49:17Z gwatt: https://docs.krita.org/en/user_manual/python_scripting/introduction_to_python_scripting.html
2020-10-07T18:50:53Z Zipheir: Ah, OK.
2020-10-07T18:52:26Z Zipheir: I guess GIMP is probably going to go full Python at some point, too.  Their Scheme programs already look like s-exp Python (SexPy?) already.
2020-10-07T18:52:45Z Riastradh: sounds kinky
2020-10-07T18:52:45Z Zipheir: s/ already//
2020-10-07T18:52:58Z amirouche: GIMP is supposed to allows everything krita does, but krita does it better.
2020-10-07T18:53:25Z cjv: i'm sure there is a good reason they used camelCase (like trying to match the QT internals or something), but that honestly drives me crazy
2020-10-07T18:53:51Z cjv: same with using import *
2020-10-07T18:54:24Z Zipheir: amirouche: GIMP is still at least mostly C and Scheme, which I will take over C++ and Python any day.
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2020-10-07T18:57:08Z amirouche: true
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2020-10-07T19:06:37Z gwatt: There used to be a kde/qt project named "smoke" which was supposed to allow general scripting from any language to any kde app
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2020-10-07T19:22:47Z wasamasa: rudybot: smoke on the water
2020-10-07T19:22:49Z rudybot: wasamasa: and smoke on the water
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2020-10-07T20:11:24Z amirouche: I got a new grand scheme plan plot :)
2020-10-07T20:11:36Z amirouche: I will put together all the knowledge I have...
2020-10-07T20:11:44Z amirouche: in a project I will not finish!
2020-10-07T20:14:35Z amirouche: sounds like a regular free time project :)
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2020-10-07T20:38:10Z jcowan: amirouche: So what is your scheme-plan-plot?
2020-10-07T20:38:23Z jcowan: (it would be good if it also involved conniving)
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2020-10-07T20:48:41Z mrkotfw: jcowan: Thanks, good point
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2020-10-07T21:07:06Z amirouche: The idea is to mix the search engine, the p2p *ahem* decentralized network, a package manager, and a subset of Scheme that is content addresseable
2020-10-07T21:07:28Z amirouche: the twist that I took lot of time to figure, is that I will just use a web browser as GUI
2020-10-07T21:08:10Z wasamasa: does the web browser mean its success or doom?
2020-10-07T21:08:24Z amirouche: I will not build a search engine...
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2020-10-07T21:08:36Z amirouche: well, at least other people will be able to use it
2020-10-07T21:08:46Z amirouche: my initial idea was to use termbox
2020-10-07T21:09:11Z amirouche: I mean to write: "I will not build a web browser"
2020-10-07T21:09:31Z amirouche: the search engine works by the way, but the crawler is broken.
2020-10-07T21:09:46Z amirouche: the bug was not on my side.
2020-10-07T21:10:36Z amirouche: also, instead of building separate things, I will bolt together everthing, which means it is enough impossible to my liking
2020-10-07T21:11:26Z amirouche: I was wondering about the "scale up, scale down wikidata" but that is mostly useful for big corp and startup nation, whereas p2p network can not be "stolen" as easily.
2020-10-07T21:12:14Z amirouche: ahah!
2020-10-07T21:14:39Z amirouche: the problem with the content-addresseable scheme is that I did not figure how to support both i18n and macros
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2020-10-07T21:21:32Z sm2n: amirouche, content-addressable scheme?
2020-10-07T21:35:42Z mrkotfw: I haven't been able to find any, they're easy to implement, but without reinventing the wheel, is there a map procedure that also passes in the index of the element being processed?
2020-10-07T21:36:03Z mrkotfw: Is there also a procedure that flattens lists?
2020-10-07T21:36:21Z gwatt: mrkotfw: for the second question, you can (apply append list-of-lists)
2020-10-07T21:38:19Z mrkotfw: I didn't think to do that. That actually covers my specific case. But that looks to be be for "shallow" list of lists
2020-10-07T21:38:41Z Zipheir: What is a content-addressable programming language?
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2020-10-07T21:41:34Z sm2n: presumably something like unison, where code is a mapping from names to hashed ast
2020-10-07T21:41:37Z Zipheir: mrkotfw: (apply append lis) may blow up.  (concatenate lis) is the safer bet.
2020-10-07T21:42:35Z sm2n: https://www.unisonweb.org/docs/tour#%F0%9F%A7%A0-the-big-technical-idea
2020-10-07T21:43:17Z Zipheir: Presumably "the external representation of the code" can be hash-mapped to an internal representation.
2020-10-07T21:46:00Z Zipheir: "Each Unison definition is some syntax tree..."  That seems to really be confusing syntax and semantics.
2020-10-07T21:47:50Z Zipheir: There would need to be some kind of proof that there's an injective map from external to internal forms, in any case.
2020-10-07T21:48:45Z Zipheir: Which would require extensive rewriting of equivalent expressions.  Hairy.
2020-10-07T21:53:35Z sm2n: Zipheir, I don't understand the issue here
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2020-10-07T21:55:21Z sm2n: why would rewriting be required?
2020-10-07T21:57:18Z Zipheir: Well, what kind of function is it?  Is its domain strings, or identifiers within the language, or?
2020-10-07T21:59:10Z Zipheir: The Unison document talks of the "content" of a definition, but I'm not sure what that means, either.
2020-10-07T22:00:28Z Zipheir: They don't provide formal models of anything, either.
2020-10-07T22:01:05Z sm2n: why does the domain matter? I still don't understand
2020-10-07T22:01:40Z Zipheir: What gets mapped to what, in other words?
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2020-10-07T22:02:12Z sm2n: oh, is the function in question the injective map you were talking about?
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2020-10-07T22:02:43Z Zipheir: The whole content-addressable mapping idea.
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2020-10-07T22:05:43Z sm2n: I believe the idea is that 1) definitions don't have identifiers, they use something along the lines of de brujin indices, 2) references to names in code are resolved to the hash of the corresponding syntax tree
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2020-10-07T22:06:27Z sm2n: is the de brujin thing what you meant by rewriting?
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2020-10-07T22:07:23Z Zipheir: OK, I'm getting an inkling of what's going on.
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2020-10-07T22:09:34Z Zipheir: So it's not really part of the language.  It's a way to divide a program into a bunch of atoms which can be compiled, then not touched again unless a specific part of the program changes.
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2020-10-07T22:12:06Z sm2n: I suppose
2020-10-07T22:15:39Z Zipheir: sm2n: Thanks, I'll read more about the idea later on.
2020-10-07T22:16:12Z sm2n: it's a fun idea
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2020-10-08T07:30:48Z amirouche: sm2n: Zipheir: yes content addresseable like unison, but the primary interest is to make it possible to share the code over the network and the second is to make it possible to i18n identifiers.
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2020-10-08T08:35:02Z amirouche: In fact you can share code without being content-addresseable (e.g. github), but if you add i18n (in the sense given a definition, swap identifiers) you need CA
2020-10-08T08:35:16Z amirouche: the goal is to make it possible to share code across different programming language.
2020-10-08T08:35:28Z amirouche: s/programming language/natural language/
2020-10-08T08:52:39Z tdammers: i18n-ing identifiers sounds like a terrible idea
2020-10-08T08:53:07Z tdammers: main problem is that words tend to not be isomorphic between natural languages
2020-10-08T08:53:27Z aeth: and comments are already hard enough to keep up to date without having to have a hundred knowledgeable translators (who didn't write the code being commented) translate the comments every time they change
2020-10-08T08:54:13Z tdammers: for example, in English, Jesus saves, but you can also save a file; but in German, Jesus rettet, but man speichert eine Datei
2020-10-08T08:55:50Z tdammers: it's already going wrong in GUI i18n on a regular basis. our "smart" tv is configured to Dutch; but the "space" key on the on-screen keyboard isn't labelled "spatie" as would be correct, but "ruimte" (which is the Dutch translation of "space" as in "empty space in a room", or "space travel")
2020-10-08T08:56:18Z tdammers: now imagine what happenes when you unleash this giant source of facepalming onto a codebase
2020-10-08T08:56:46Z amirouche: you can still make the choice to use only english. Of course, it will require some maintainance
2020-10-08T08:57:19Z aeth: there would be an authoritative language and that would be the one that people use
2020-10-08T08:58:07Z aeth: (or, even worse, different parts of the code would have a different correct language! German here, English there, Russian somewhere else)
2020-10-08T08:58:14Z tdammers: but what would be the benefit of having other languages available, when they're not reliable?
2020-10-08T08:59:45Z amirouche: diversity. English being the language used to program is only an accident, not a requirement.
2020-10-08T09:01:06Z wasamasa: a convenient one though
2020-10-08T09:01:50Z amirouche: more people will engage into programming if they can code using their favorite programming language. At the moment, it does not happen, because sharing code across natural language is a pain, so you end up duplicating code instead of sharing efforts.
2020-10-08T09:02:04Z amirouche: I want to have the choice to program in whatever language makes sense
2020-10-08T09:02:21Z amirouche: depending on the audiance
2020-10-08T09:04:02Z amirouche: it is not clear whether english is the most convenient natural language.. since it is the only natural language i use for programming.
2020-10-08T09:11:12Z amirouche: that is still an open question as part of cognitive science ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
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2020-10-08T09:29:51Z civodul: i18n for code itself would be great, it could really make code more accessible
2020-10-08T09:30:18Z civodul: the difficulty being sharing across natural languages, as you write
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2020-10-08T09:45:12Z cpressey: identifiers in code are often poorly-chosen anyway; the effort needed to puzzle out what their semantics actually are almost certainly dwarfs the effort needed to learn the labels that were used for them.
2020-10-08T09:46:50Z cpressey: meanwhile, documentation can be kept seperately, and passed through Google Translate or similar when needed.
2020-10-08T09:50:13Z aeth: a lot of programming is using a mix of English words and symbols in ways that make no sense in English to someone who's untrained, e.g. Python's "for i in range(10):"
2020-10-08T09:50:43Z dTal: why does Dutch have a different word for typographical space? It's the *same* "space"! The "space" between two words!
2020-10-08T09:51:10Z aeth: actual English would be something like "assign to i a value starting at 0 and ending at 9 stepping by 1 in each iteration"
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2020-10-08T10:50:03Z mdhughes: You've reinvented COBOL.
2020-10-08T10:51:33Z lockywolf: dTal: no it's not.
2020-10-08T10:53:16Z mdhughes: Previously: https://mdhughes.tech/2019/01/06/spread-of-terrible-programming-languages/
2020-10-08T10:53:19Z lockywolf: E.g., in Russian we have a similar distinction
2020-10-08T10:53:33Z lockywolf: Between words we have "white space"
2020-10-08T10:53:42Z lockywolf: In a room we have "empty space"
2020-10-08T10:53:53Z lockywolf: Which is the same as "place"
2020-10-08T11:07:30Z fizzie: [Obligatory reference to the Osmosian Order of Plain English Programmers.]
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2020-10-08T12:22:48Z lockywolf: btw, scheme.dk/planet has got rid of a few broken links and should generally work better now
2020-10-08T12:24:33Z civodul: lockywolf: thanks
2020-10-08T12:25:00Z civodul: it looks like there are few active posters these days, it's a bit sad
2020-10-08T12:25:18Z lockywolf: If people around know some blogs that are not aggregated there (I think most of the implementations' press-release channels are not), I'd like to ask people to ask the blog maintainers to submit them to Jens Axel (or me)
2020-10-08T12:26:44Z lockywolf: civodul: it is a bit sad
2020-10-08T12:28:17Z lockywolf: But I think it's a good think to generally clean up the Scheme world a bit and make it look more like "a small, but rigorous scientific-ish community" rather than "a cemetery of broken links and failed aspirations"
2020-10-08T12:30:36Z civodul: lockywolf: i know that the URL for Guile has changed to https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/news/feed.xml
2020-10-08T12:30:42Z civodul: (from savannah.gnu.org)
2020-10-08T12:31:00Z wasamasa: isn't it scientific-ish to be heterogenous and broken
2020-10-08T12:31:08Z civodul: :-)
2020-10-08T12:39:36Z lockywolf: Well, as a matter of affairs it often is. But I don't see a principled requirement of that
2020-10-08T12:39:49Z lockywolf: Reporting a broken link is easy
2020-10-08T12:41:21Z lockywolf: wasamasa: you don't blog about Scheme, do you?
2020-10-08T12:41:30Z lockywolf: Only about Emacs?
2020-10-08T12:41:35Z wasamasa: sometimes about scheme
2020-10-08T12:41:42Z wasamasa: but not too often
2020-10-08T12:42:05Z wasamasa: I've only bothered creating an emacs-specific feed
2020-10-08T12:43:00Z lockywolf: Well, it would be nice if you create a scheme-specific one
2020-10-08T12:45:30Z wasamasa: hm, I'll have to go over all the blog posts then
2020-10-08T12:45:36Z wasamasa: mostly busy work, nothing hard
2020-10-08T12:48:40Z wasamasa: the other question is, how long until my blog shows up on planet scheme :D
2020-10-08T12:49:07Z wasamasa: I remember it appearing spontaneously on planet emacs, then it took ages until they accepted the corrected emacs-only feed
2020-10-08T12:53:44Z mdhughes: I haven't posted as often this year, given <waves hand at everything>, but I expect to again: https://mdhughes.tech/category/scheme/feed/
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2020-10-08T13:07:58Z lockywolf: I can ping Jens Axel once in a while.
2020-10-08T13:08:21Z lockywolf: But I can't submit the feed on behalf of the authors
2020-10-08T13:09:29Z lockywolf: So if wasamasa and mdhughes can email jensaxel at soegaard.net, I'll keep pinging him until the blogs appear on Planet Scheme
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2020-10-08T13:13:33Z wasamasa: https://emacsninja.com/scheme.atom is a thing now
2020-10-08T13:20:46Z lockywolf: Wow, this was fast
2020-10-08T13:21:12Z wasamasa: it's just eight scheme posts, lol
2020-10-08T13:21:20Z lockywolf: wasamasa: send it to Jens Axel, please
2020-10-08T13:21:28Z wasamasa: which is kind of sad, I have a few projects that I should blog about
2020-10-08T13:22:41Z lockywolf: That would be fun to read
2020-10-08T13:23:19Z lockywolf: If I ever get some free time, I'll make a Twitter gate
2020-10-08T13:23:26Z wasamasa: what's that?
2020-10-08T13:23:46Z lockywolf: Cross-post from planet scheme to twitter
2020-10-08T13:24:29Z lockywolf: I'm not a fan of Twitter
2020-10-08T13:24:37Z lockywolf: But many people are there
2020-10-08T13:26:57Z lockywolf: I was having something like this in mind: http://cstheory-feed.org/
2020-10-08T13:30:07Z wasamasa: mail sent
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2020-10-08T14:00:06Z tdammers: amirouche: it would be nice, but I don't think it's even possible. I would much rather bet my money on a programming language that doesn't use mnemoics from *any* natural language
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2020-10-08T14:48:43Z lockywolf: Thanks wasamasa
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2020-10-08T15:46:26Z jcowan: tdammers: So you favor x?y:z over if x then y else z?
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2020-10-08T15:49:00Z gwatt: jcowan: does the question mark count as being a natural language mnemonic?
2020-10-08T15:49:16Z jcowan: Well, in Latin I suppose
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2020-10-08T15:51:51Z amirouche: visual programming is not my cup of tea (also much more difficult imo)
2020-10-08T15:54:00Z jcowan: ? is a stylized Q for "quaestio", and the dot below is just the the ordinary period.
2020-10-08T15:55:35Z amirouche: TIL
2020-10-08T15:56:13Z mdhughes: Obvs the Scheme `(if x y z)` is nicer. I'm baffled by Python's `y if x else z`
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2020-10-08T15:57:03Z jcowan: Yes: 'when' might have been better than 'if' here, but of course just allowing if-then-else to be either a statement or an expression is best.
2020-10-08T15:59:00Z mdhughes: I do use `y or z` quite a bit when y is truthy, but that doesn't help in every case.
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2020-10-08T16:01:46Z amirouche: there is no "then" in python, it dubbed overkill ;)
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2020-10-08T16:02:04Z amirouche: "else" to the contrary is dubbed good enough.
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2020-10-08T16:02:10Z Zipheir: amirouche: Program-text localization might at least give you some funny Google-translate-style moments: "crush-user", "defenestrate-url", etc.
2020-10-08T16:02:37Z amirouche: Zipheir: l10n will not be automatic, I mean user will need to ack the l10n is ok
2020-10-08T16:02:55Z amirouche: say I write some code in english.
2020-10-08T16:03:20Z mdhughes: They could've allowed `if x: y else z` as an expression
2020-10-08T16:03:35Z amirouche: you, Zipheir know french and english, you pick up my code, you ask a initial translation based on known identifier translation and then fine tune it eventually share the translated code.
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2020-10-08T16:04:13Z amirouche: if the code changes, the translation must be updated.
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2020-10-08T16:04:27Z amirouche: for the purpose of that system, that is another code.
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2020-10-08T16:05:13Z mdhughes: What do you do if your program in English has `(define pain 0) (define bread 1)` and you translate it and now `(define douleur 0) (define pain 1)`
2020-10-08T16:05:20Z amirouche: anyway, it will be painless if you just want to code in english. Like there will be no requirements for everybody to translate everything.
2020-10-08T16:06:40Z amirouche: mdhughes: a s-exp is split into the name it defines, its structures, the identifiers that are used and the natural language. When you translate you attach a natural language to it.
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2020-10-08T16:07:17Z amirouche: yes, it may appear like two variables (define pain 0) and (define pain 1) but in fact those are different codes...
2020-10-08T16:07:33Z amirouche: because the representation use different natural languages
2020-10-08T16:07:53Z amirouche: like I said, it is not easy in terms of ui/ux especially with a tui
2020-10-08T16:09:23Z amirouche: and when you execute the code, you execute the "structure" not a particular natural language representation. For the interpreter it will be just (define x#some-hash 0) (define x#some-other-hash 1)
2020-10-08T16:09:37Z mdhughes: I don't want to be tagging `(var pain (#language EN US))` every reference, for sure.
2020-10-08T16:10:03Z amirouche: yeah, it still not clear how translation process will happen...
2020-10-08T16:10:21Z Riastradh: (define <var name="pain" xmlns:lang="fr_FR"/> (make-baguette ...))
2020-10-08T16:10:25Z amirouche: just relying on regular gettext po files is not possible
2020-10-08T16:11:46Z jcowan: "then" in Python is spelled ":", and so is "do", and a lot of other keywords.
2020-10-08T16:11:58Z sm2n: I would just make it so you program as normal, and then let the compiler infrastructure manage the language
2020-10-08T16:12:06Z mdhughes: I wrote my XML-markup languages as a joke and because I had the parser already there! Nobody should do that for real!
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2020-10-08T16:13:01Z sm2n: you probably want some kind of generic protocol for interacting with the compiler
2020-10-08T16:13:32Z amirouche: sm2n: yes. How would you handle the translation of existing code then? The goal is to share code, it should be easier to translate that re-write.
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2020-10-08T16:14:23Z jcowan: I wrote a compiler in XSLT once that took a description of a complex data structure and output Java
2020-10-08T16:14:45Z sm2n: ux would be something like 1. change lang in compiler 2. go to editor, change all shaded identifiers (marked as untranslated) 3. that's it
2020-10-08T16:14:59Z amirouche: yeah.
2020-10-08T16:15:00Z amirouche: ok
2020-10-08T16:15:28Z jcowan: similarly you configure TagSoup to know what schema it is meant to parse by using two XML config files.  That was back in 200x, though, when XML config files were the obvious thing.
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2020-10-08T16:16:59Z sm2n: at least xml had a schema
2020-10-08T16:17:04Z sm2n: now it's just random json
2020-10-08T16:17:44Z sm2n: is it schemas or schemae
2020-10-08T16:18:09Z jcowan: I prefer schemas, but it's actually a Greek neuter so if you must be classical use schemata.
2020-10-08T16:18:25Z sm2n: ah
2020-10-08T16:19:57Z jcowan: In this case, though, the XML *expressed* the schema that TagSoup uses to parse.  The schema itself also has a schema, but that's just so I don't make mistakes when writing it; it's not relevant to the parser.  It basically sets up a bunch of parser tables like "What element can be contained in what?" and "Is this element reopenable after I have been forced to close it?"  (b, i, etc. are; a is not)
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2020-10-08T17:50:10Z tdammers: jcowan: my point is that identifier in programming languages don't mean anything that has a name in a natural language anyway; the labels we put on them are mnemoics at best, but we don't program in English, we program in Scheme or C or Python or whatever, and all those English words we use there mean different things
2020-10-08T17:50:53Z tdammers: it's kind of convenient for someone who speaks English that so many of these identifiers are borrowed from English, and have meanings that somehow relate to the meaning of the English terms, but they still don't mean the same thing
2020-10-08T17:51:10Z tdammers: (cf. "while you're out, buy some milk")
2020-10-08T17:53:27Z jcowan laughs
2020-10-08T17:54:57Z jcowan: The long-forgotten language FOCAL (a relative of MUMPS, which is only almost forgotten) had 1-letter statement with English mnemonics: you could type SET or SE or S for assignment.  But there was also a patch set to change the commands around so that the mnemonics were Spanish.
2020-10-08T17:55:13Z jcowan: s/statement/& keywords
2020-10-08T17:55:45Z sm2n: I believe algol 68 was internationalized as well
2020-10-08T17:56:03Z sm2n: even the standard was translated iirc
2020-10-08T17:57:01Z jcowan: Yes, complete with almost all the jokes, which is amazing.
2020-10-08T17:57:57Z jcowan: I never used A68 in anger, but I studied it very intensively as a teenager (straight from the standards) and it has influenced my thinking throughout my life.
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2020-10-08T18:12:06Z gwatt: tdammers: I think it's a far more than "kind of convenient" that languages' keywords relate to words in a natural human languages.
2020-10-08T18:13:51Z gwatt: (oops, ignore the extra "a"s in there. I revised my original sentence but did so poorly)
2020-10-08T18:16:25Z tdammers: well, but they don't mean the same thing, and while the mnemoic nature helps in many ways, it often also hurts
2020-10-08T18:18:13Z dTal: I would certainly dispute that. Try finding and replacing all variable names with random strings.
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2020-10-08T18:19:10Z dTal: A study showed that expert chess players could store and retrieve configurations of chess pieces on a board at a single glance - *provided* the chess pieces were in a valud configuration reachable by play
2020-10-08T18:19:44Z dTal: similarly, an actual word in the language is going to be chunked as a single symbol in your brain
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2020-10-08T18:22:51Z jcowan: dTal: Syntactic eywords aren't identifiers, though (in Scheme, of course, they are).  I have seen Java with all identifiers (other than those in libraries) written in Japanese, but the code is still full of if, else, while, class, etc.
2020-10-08T18:24:04Z dTal: Presumably because the authors spoke Japanese.
2020-10-08T18:24:30Z dTal: That's an excellent indication that it does, in fact, matter what the words mean
2020-10-08T18:28:34Z jcowan: Sure.  But if they could Japanesify the syntactic keywords too, that would help even more, I think.
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2020-10-08T18:51:59Z tdammers: case in point: "Monoid". what's a monoid? I have no clue. it's not something I've ever come across in English, nor in any of the other languages I speak. I understand the concept in Haskell - it's not complex at all, just abstract in a way that isn't useful in a lot of everyday situations. could it have some other name? sure. could that name be more descriptive? absolutely. would that help me understand the
2020-10-08T18:52:01Z tdammers: concept better? probably not.
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2020-10-08T18:53:31Z Zipheir: I think of monoids frequently in "everyday situations".
2020-10-08T18:53:48Z Zipheir: Bumper sticker: "START SEEING MONOIDS".
2020-10-08T18:54:04Z tdammers: yeah, but that just means you're a weirdo :D
2020-10-08T18:54:29Z Zipheir: By some standards, which are not mine.
2020-10-08T18:55:00Z tdammers: found the mathematician!
2020-10-08T18:56:47Z edgar-rft: most people seeing that probably think you're just simply dyslectic :-)
2020-10-08T18:57:27Z Riastradh: a monoid is just concatenation modulo equivalence burritos
2020-10-08T18:57:28Z tdammers: DAE think naming it "dyslexia" was a sadist idea?
2020-10-08T18:57:53Z tdammers: Riastradh: tell that to the unit monoid!
2020-10-08T18:58:30Z siraben: <> is amazing for sequence concatenation
2020-10-08T18:58:31Z tdammers: (also calling multiplication a "sort of concatenation" is a bit of a stretch IMO)
2020-10-08T18:58:47Z siraben: In Emacs Lisp I have to remember which concatenation to use for each type
2020-10-08T18:58:49Z Riastradh: tdammers: the unit monoid is just concatenation modulo itself like ouroburritos
2020-10-08T18:58:59Z Riastradh: tdammers: Not a stretch at all.
2020-10-08T18:59:01Z tdammers: can't argue with burritos
2020-10-08T18:59:06Z siraben: Yes, <> is the mul of monoid
2020-10-08T18:59:34Z Riastradh: It is a trivial theorem that every monoid is a quotient of the free monoid over some generating set.
2020-10-08T18:59:43Z siraben: the monoid of endofunctions with compose and id
2020-10-08T19:00:06Z Riastradh: And the binary operation in the free monoid over some generating set is literally concatenation.
2020-10-08T19:00:43Z tdammers: ah yes, that's exactly how you should explain monoids to first-year CS students
2020-10-08T19:01:08Z tdammers: not to mention hordes of fresh bootcamp "graduates" eager to pump out mobile apps for big monies
2020-10-08T19:01:13Z Zipheir: "It's a way to glob stuff up."
2020-10-08T19:01:41Z tdammers: anyway, calling it "concatenatable" wouldn't make it easier to understand
2020-10-08T19:01:58Z edgar-rft wants stereoids and dolby-5.1oids
2020-10-08T19:02:09Z tdammers: and calling it "blargnaf" wouldn't have made it significantly more difficult
2020-10-08T19:02:26Z tdammers: "monoid" is convenient, because it's distinguishable, easy to pronounce, etc.
2020-10-08T19:03:02Z tdammers: but not because the average learner associates anything particular with it - in fact that is an *advantage*, because the average learner is less likely to form incorrect associations
2020-10-08T19:03:14Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-10-08T19:03:19Z Riastradh: tdammers: `that's exactly how you should explain monoids to first-year CS students' -- yes, that's the joke
2020-10-08T19:03:32Z Riastradh: (that and burritos)
2020-10-08T19:03:45Z Zipheir: "Magma" is of course a much cooler name, though.
2020-10-08T19:03:58Z Riastradh: A magma need not have an identity.
2020-10-08T19:04:20Z Zipheir: I'm just commenting on the coolness of the name.
2020-10-08T19:04:41Z tdammers: this is why, for example, redefining the + operator as - leads to a lot of confusion, while redefining it as ☃︎ usually fine, after a brief period of adjustment
2020-10-08T19:05:21Z Zipheir: Can we use a big snowman for sigma?
2020-10-08T19:07:19Z Riastradh: (if this technically correct definition of monoids manages to discourage a generation of bootcamp `graduates' from pumping out mobile apps for big monies and instead interact with and learn from other people in the world, maybe that's not a bad thing?)
2020-10-08T19:08:27Z Zipheir: "Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
2020-10-08T19:09:51Z Riastradh: ((not really a fan of anything that is branded after `boot camp' to inculcate a feeling of gatekeeping machismo))
2020-10-08T19:10:33Z Zipheir: Dijkstra's "On The Cruelty Of Really Teaching Computer Science" is a great essay and really captures the experience of trying to get bootcamp-types to think about computation a little...
2020-10-08T19:11:11Z tdammers: true dat, I kind of abhor the "coding bootcamp" concept myself - though I'm not sure a university-level CS program necessarily prepares you better for a programming career
2020-10-08T19:12:05Z tdammers: but at least CS programs tend to be a bit more honest; they don't sell you this narrative that goes something like "in just 6 months, we'll teach you everything you need to know to be a successful developer"
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2020-10-08T19:23:09Z jcowan: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoid is probably the place to start in explaining monoids.  Then you add that * is not necessarily commutative, so that strings are also a monoid under concatenation.
2020-10-08T19:23:25Z Zipheir: It can still be pretty blunt, though.  I looked at RIT's site not too long ago, and the CS programs page listed "expected salary" for each thingy you could sign up for.
2020-10-08T19:24:01Z jcowan: Who expects it?
2020-10-08T19:24:15Z Zipheir: Fools!
2020-10-08T19:24:26Z Riastradh: tdammers: At US universities' CS departments, the cash cows are sometimes called `masters programs'.
2020-10-08T19:24:34Z Riastradh: Especially for preying on international students.
2020-10-08T19:26:36Z Riastradh: Undergrad CS programs also attract plenty of techbros chasing money.
2020-10-08T19:27:24Z jcowan: The real cash cows are called "sports teams".
2020-10-08T19:33:24Z Zipheir: Everyone feels good about donating to "education" as a vague idea, especially if there's sports involved.  So there's that, too.
2020-10-08T19:33:37Z Riastradh: jcowan: CS departments usually don't have those, at least not ones that are cash cows.
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2020-10-08T19:44:02Z Riastradh: tdammers: maybe you could advertise free burritos and universal health properties to trick people into learning what monoids really are
2020-10-08T19:46:50Z Zipheir: Anecdotally, I can confirm that students (and professors) will attend anything that comes with free burritos.
2020-10-08T19:52:08Z tdammers: I myself am guilty of having attended talks on dependent types and petri networks mainly for the free pizza
2020-10-08T19:54:28Z Riastradh: universally attracting object (or repelling, if it's from Domino's)
2020-10-08T19:55:11Z gwatt: Eh, nothing wrong with dominos
2020-10-08T19:57:22Z gnomon: gwatt, I'll have to respecfully disagree with you there
2020-10-08T19:57:39Z tdammers: I like to think of the pizza as the initial object and myself as the final object. Or the other way around, if I'm attending a cotalk.
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2020-10-08T19:58:19Z Riastradh: gnomon: you can have all my respect in that disagreement, i don't need it
2020-10-08T19:58:33Z Riastradh judging gwatt's taste
2020-10-08T19:58:39Z gnomon hoards respect jealously
2020-10-08T19:58:49Z jcowan: I don't think the pizza generated by cotalks really qualifies as a pizza, thanks to mutability.
2020-10-08T20:00:26Z gwatt: Look, I said it was "fine" not that it was great. I'll eat it if it's free. Also, Domino's is pretty cheap ($5 medium pizza) which was attractive to college me
2020-10-08T20:02:20Z gwatt: (I guess I actually said "nothing wrong with dominos", but still)
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2020-10-08T20:07:15Z jcowan: A cotalk takes a well-stuffed student and transforms it into pizza, no?  But the pizza is either digested or half-digested, depending on how it got that way.
2020-10-08T20:08:18Z tdammers: sounds rather disgusting either way
2020-10-08T20:08:28Z tdammers: then again, I've also been to PHP talks, so there's that
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2020-10-08T20:11:00Z gwatt: was there free pizza?
2020-10-08T20:11:35Z Riastradh: .oO(probably free domino's)
2020-10-08T20:11:59Z jcowan: tdammers: It was you who brought up cotalks.
2020-10-08T20:12:10Z Riastradh: jcowan: you cobrought down cotalks with tdammers
2020-10-08T20:12:15Z Riastradh: without
2020-10-08T20:12:26Z tdammers: what have I done!
2020-10-08T20:12:35Z Riastradh: tdammers: what haven't you codone
2020-10-08T20:12:56Z Riastradh: speaking of which where's copumpkin
2020-10-08T20:13:35Z jcowan: Cotalks of course also suck knowledge out of the minds of (attentive) students.  Which reminds me of the retiring university president who was congratulated on making the place a great storehouse of knowledge.  "That's easy," he said.  "The freshmen bring so much in and the seniors take so little out."
2020-10-08T20:14:23Z tdammers: Riastradh: you mean what hasn't codone me!
2020-10-08T20:15:01Z amirouche: don't you have work to do :o)
2020-10-08T20:15:04Z amirouche: ?
2020-10-08T20:15:08Z jcowan: We cannot codone this sort of behavior
2020-10-08T20:15:51Z Zipheir: amirouche: Don't interrupt the cowork.
2020-10-08T20:16:23Z jcowan: Cows, when orking, must never be interrupted!
2020-10-08T20:16:50Z Blukunfando: And that’s why there’s such a deep wisdom in being an inattentive student.
2020-10-08T20:17:17Z tdammers suddenly understands the term "coworker"
2020-10-08T20:19:29Z Blukunfando: Isn’t it obvious?  It’s someone who orks cows.
2020-10-08T20:21:03Z Zipheir: Cowing orcs sounds more useful.
2020-10-08T20:21:34Z amirouche: rudybot: do cows ork often?
2020-10-08T20:21:34Z rudybot: amirouche: Oh noes! I ork cows!
2020-10-08T20:21:39Z tdammers: is that different from winging coorcs?
2020-10-08T20:22:19Z Zipheir: I... dunno.
2020-10-08T20:22:24Z Zipheir: James Joyce would be proud.
2020-10-08T20:25:32Z ski . o O ( slice category of pizzas over the participants ? )
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2020-10-08T20:31:10Z Zipheir: Hi ski!  It's been a while.
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2020-10-08T20:37:15Z ski: heya Zipheir
2020-10-08T20:37:39Z ski frantically tries to place Zipheir, before cover is blown
2020-10-08T20:38:16Z Zipheir: ski: Hah, don't worry about it.
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2020-10-08T20:40:29Z autumn[m]: What's a cotalk anyway?
2020-10-08T20:40:44Z autumn[m]: <- embarrassingly uneducated >_>
2020-10-08T20:40:58Z tdammers: the dual of a talk
2020-10-08T20:41:06Z Zipheir: So a listen?
2020-10-08T20:41:10Z tdammers: stupid category theory joke
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2020-10-08T20:41:31Z tdammers: but, yeah, pretty much a listen
2020-10-08T20:41:32Z Zipheir: #scheme has been very categorical today.
2020-10-08T20:41:38Z tdammers: "reverse the arrows"
2020-10-08T20:42:14Z amirouche: in fact it more fun that the endless join / leave
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2020-10-08T20:50:46Z tdammers: you can hide joins & leaves though, but you can't hide the category jokes!
2020-10-08T20:51:11Z tdammers: (also the cocategory cojokes cocan't cohide coyou)
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2020-10-08T21:00:18Z jcowan: Some shoelaces are made of rawhide, others out of cohide.
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2020-10-09T04:56:09Z rscx: how is writing network protocols in scheme?
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2020-10-09T05:02:18Z Zipheir: A little harder than writing them in English, but probably easier than writing them in first-order logic.
2020-10-09T05:04:07Z aeth: In a Scheme? Yeah, doable. In portable Scheme? heh
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2020-10-09T05:09:32Z rscx: ok, thanks for letting me know
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2020-10-09T05:16:46Z Zipheir: Implementing protocols would depend on how complicated the protocol is.  You could easily write an IRC client in portable Scheme + some basic socket stuff.
2020-10-09T05:17:23Z Zipheir: Most Schemes provide most of what you'd need, though.
2020-10-09T05:18:37Z mdhughes: There's a full example of a socket server in the CSUG, it's all C FFI but the Scheme side is quite nice.
2020-10-09T05:20:26Z mdhughes: And Chicken can do it with process, srfi-18 (threads) and tcp6 eggs.
2020-10-09T05:22:15Z Zipheir: And other Schemes will have analogous stuff, similar enough to be portable-with-some-effort.
2020-10-09T05:23:40Z rscx: what is the CSUG?
2020-10-09T05:23:58Z rscx: the protocol of interest to me is tftp, so pretty small all in all
2020-10-09T05:24:12Z mdhughes: https://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.5/csug.html
2020-10-09T05:24:34Z rscx: thanks :^)
2020-10-09T05:24:41Z Zipheir: rscx: tftp?!
2020-10-09T05:25:29Z rscx: trivial file transfer protocol. I've been trying to get this protocol for some time, it's of much interest to me due to where it's used among other things
2020-10-09T05:26:54Z Zipheir: I remember reading about it.  It is a *very* simple protocol.
2020-10-09T05:28:47Z rscx: yeah, reading legacy code wasn't
2020-10-09T05:29:02Z rscx: also helps me to get used to rfc style writing
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2020-10-09T05:51:53Z Zipheir: rscx: You can *definitely* write a tftp client/server in any Scheme with a basic POSIX library.
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2020-10-09T10:50:11Z jcowan: Because TFTP has no security, its main application is for machines without local storage to download their images at boot time.
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2020-10-09T10:55:09Z LeoNerd: It isn't called "trivial" FTP for nothing ;)
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2020-10-09T12:23:00Z amirouche: that seems like a good practice... I hope it works only on local networks.
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2020-10-09T21:42:08Z hoppfull: Hello, I just tried out define-syntax in scheme and it works for expressions but not statements. Here's an example. https://paste.debian.net/1166546/ Is it not possible to do a define inside a macro?
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2020-10-09T21:44:45Z fizzie: That's hygiene for you. The `f` in the macro intentionally won't clobber other identifiers.
2020-10-09T21:44:52Z fizzie: This works, for example: http://ix.io/2Afo
2020-10-09T21:45:42Z hoppfull: Fascinating! Is this what they mean when they say Scheme is pure and Common Lisp is powerful?
2020-10-09T21:47:00Z hoppfull: By the way, isn't (define (f x) (* x 2)) just a macro for (define f (lambda (x) (* x 2)))? So it should work somehow, right?
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2020-10-09T21:48:46Z hoppfull: hmm, I think I'm starting to get it. I need to look into this hygiene thing. I've heard it so many times but I have no idea what it means.
2020-10-09T21:48:58Z hoppfull: Thanks mate!
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2020-10-10T00:10:44Z Zipheir: I'm not sure what "pure" macros are, but CL's defmacro is incredibly powerful, in the way that untyped, non-capture-avoiding languages are (too) powerful.
2020-10-10T00:12:17Z aeth: The opposite of "hygienic" is "dirty", right? Or something like that.
2020-10-10T00:14:20Z Zipheir: That's what Oleg called his sort-of-unhygienic-hygienic macro.
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2020-10-10T00:14:51Z Zipheir: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/Dirty-Macros.pdf
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2020-10-10T00:19:30Z Zipheir: But as for hopefull's "pure" vs "powerful" characterization, I'd say both Scheme and CL both have elegant and ball-of-mud sides.
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2020-10-10T00:49:13Z jcowan: Scheme: Elegant core wrapped in a ball of mud.  CL: Mud all the way down.
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2020-10-10T01:10:45Z Zipheir: Perfect if you want to build Swamp Castle (just don't let it sink into the mud).
2020-10-10T01:23:13Z jcowan: "Seven alone rose up from Mud-castle."
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2020-10-10T03:15:49Z groovy: hi I'm learning scheme and haven't touched it in a minute and wrote a simple FizzBuzz for practice and was wondering if someone would look at it and tell me how decent it is/if and where it could be optimized or cleaned up?
2020-10-10T03:18:01Z groovy: pastebin here https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OezuXLLS/fizzbuzz.scm
2020-10-10T03:26:35Z Zipheir: groovy: Looking now.
2020-10-10T03:28:02Z Zipheir: Looks perfect, assuming you've got another function to generate the numbers.
2020-10-10T03:28:19Z groovy: idk how to do loop stuff yet so I just wrote it to take a single number at a time
2020-10-10T03:28:33Z groovy: cd
2020-10-10T03:28:51Z Zipheir: That's perfectly reasonable.  You can use for-each and iota to write the rest of the program.
2020-10-10T03:29:13Z Zipheir: e.g. (iota 100) = (1 2 ... 99)
2020-10-10T03:29:46Z Zipheir: Oops, (0 1 2 .. 99).
2020-10-10T03:31:05Z Zipheir: So (for-each fizzbuzz (iota 100 1)) will run FizzBuzz for the integers 1,2,...,99.
2020-10-10T03:31:37Z groovy: Zipheir: cool thx so much
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2020-10-10T03:32:39Z Riastradh: Can use the Chinese remainder theorem to simplify some of the logic!
2020-10-10T03:34:58Z Zipheir: Riastradh: You know what's fascinating?  The earliest known statement of that theorem deals with FizzBuzz.
2020-10-10T03:35:24Z Zipheir: "There are certain things whose number is unknown. If we count them by threes, we have two left over; by fives, we have three left over; and by sevens, two are left over. How many things are there?"
2020-10-10T03:35:49Z Zipheir: (Sun-tzu Suan-ching, 3rd century CE) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_remainder_theorem
2020-10-10T03:36:16Z Zipheir: OK, 7 is involved, but you'd think that the writer was trying to find a faster solution to fizzbuzz.
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2020-10-10T03:43:12Z Zipheir: OK, it's not really related, I just got carried away by the initial 3, 5 example.
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2020-10-10T04:18:15Z Riastradh: <suntzu> damnit, why are all these computing candidates terrible!  i know, i'll give them an easy computing test...
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2020-10-10T04:26:01Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Why do you call cmake "diabolical" again?
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2020-10-10T04:35:27Z Zipheir: SICP really does a great job of explaining declarative vs. imperative computation.
2020-10-10T04:35:38Z Zipheir: Oops, wrong FIFO.
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2020-10-10T10:51:00Z amirouche: I am reading LBST paper (aka. A New Method for Balancing Binary Search Trees, S. Roura et al.)
2020-10-10T10:51:36Z amirouche: I understand I never understoo balancing trees at engineering school.
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2020-10-10T11:32:01Z amirouche: I stumbled upon a (new?) interesting page on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_computer_science
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2020-10-10T11:32:49Z amirouche: history page says it is not a new page.
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2020-10-10T11:50:01Z amirouche: In this paper https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=16806430159882137269
2020-10-10T11:51:53Z amirouche: they write that the tree  is balanced with 1 + log2(2) but then in the exemple C code they rely on bitwise and and bitwise shift
2020-10-10T11:52:07Z amirouche: c code is at page 8
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2020-10-10T12:23:55Z srandon111: guys does anybody here can use google scholar ?
2020-10-10T12:24:49Z rain1: yes
2020-10-10T12:26:49Z amirouche: yes
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2020-10-10T12:46:01Z pinoaffe: srandon111: I only realy use google scholar to look at their profiles for scientists
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2020-10-10T13:22:45Z sm2n: It looks like planet lisp is for common lisp, is there an rss aggregator for scheme related stuff?
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2020-10-10T13:28:00Z weinholt: sm2n, http://scheme.dk/planet/
2020-10-10T13:28:00Z amirouche: sm2n: http://scheme.dk/planet/
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2020-10-10T13:41:00Z sm2n: heh, thanks
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2020-10-10T15:09:28Z amirouche: I am trying to undertand the smaller_ell code in the paper https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=16806430159882137269
2020-10-10T15:09:53Z amirouche: It is translated into the following procedure in mit/scheme: (define-integrable (log2< a b)
2020-10-10T15:09:55Z amirouche:   (and (fix:< a b) (fix:< (fix:lsh (fix:and a b) 1) b)))
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2020-10-10T15:12:21Z amirouche: The first operand is (fix:< a b) which says log2 of a is smaller than log2 of b when a is smaller that b, which is true except when a and b have the same leading 1 position.
2020-10-10T15:12:50Z amirouche: the rest of the log2< is only relevant when a > b
2020-10-10T15:13:19Z amirouche: or a = b
2020-10-10T15:15:01Z Riastradh: The idea is to compute the predicate L(a) < L(b), where L(0) = 0 and L(n) = 1 + floor(lg n) for n >= 1.
2020-10-10T15:15:04Z amirouche: in fact `log2<` could be named `ceil-log2<` (where ceil the biggest integer smaller than)
2020-10-10T15:16:11Z amirouche: when a > b then L(a) > L(b), no?
2020-10-10T15:16:26Z Riastradh: If a >= b, then certainly we can't have L(a) < L(b) since L is a nondecreasing function.
2020-10-10T15:16:32Z Riastradh: Hence (and (fix:< a b) ...).
2020-10-10T15:17:12Z amirouche: you are correct, I said something wrong above.
2020-10-10T15:18:00Z Riastradh: Now, 1 + floor(lg n) is the number of bits in n, or the one-based bit position of the highest set bit.
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2020-10-10T15:24:59Z amirouche: if a = #b01 and b = #b10, then a is less than b, but (log2< a b) returns true which is not true since the leading zero is higher in a.
2020-10-10T15:25:05Z Riastradh: If 1 + floor(lg a) = 1 + floor(lg b), then the highest set bit is the same for a and b, and so it is preserved by fix:and; shifting left by 1 then gives something _larger_ than b.
2020-10-10T15:25:26Z amirouche: (disregard what i said sorry !)
2020-10-10T15:26:17Z Riastradh: So when L(a) = L(b), this predicate returns false.
2020-10-10T15:28:36Z Riastradh: Now it might be tempting to ask whether (< (shift-left a 1) b), since surely if the highest bit of a is lower than the highest bit of b, that should return true, right?  Well, consider something like a = #b011 and b = #b100: then (shift-left a 1) = #b110 which is greater than b = #b100.
2020-10-10T15:28:49Z Riastradh: to ask whether we can reduce it to (< (shift-left a 1) b), I mean.
2020-10-10T15:30:31Z Riastradh: So merely asking (< (shift-left a 1) b) is not enough to ask whether L(a) < L(b) (even after we've ruled out a >= b).
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2020-10-10T15:34:16Z amirouche: Is that correct that (log2< a b) answer the question: the leading 1 of a is in a lower position compared to the leading 1 of b?
2020-10-10T15:34:20Z Riastradh: yes
2020-10-10T15:35:58Z Riastradh: If a = #b0... and b = #b1... (same length), then (bitwise-and a b) is at most #b0111... (in the event that a = #b0111... and b = #b1111..., i.e., all bits below are set).  In that case, (shift-left (bitwise-and a b) 1) = #b111...0 < b = #b111...1, so (log2< a b) correctly returns true.
2020-10-10T15:37:19Z Riastradh: In brief, we can break it into four cases:
2020-10-10T15:38:12Z Riastradh: Case I.  `a' has a higher highest bit position than `b'.  In this case, a >= b so we rule it out by asking (and (< a b) ...) which correctly returns true.
2020-10-10T15:38:41Z Riastradh: er
2020-10-10T15:38:41Z Riastradh: false
2020-10-10T15:39:21Z Riastradh: Case II.  `a' has the same bit highest bit position as `b'.  In this case, we rule out _either_ by asking (and (< a b) ...) which correctly returns false when a = b, _or_ by asking (< (shift-left (bitwise-and a b) 1) b); since (bitwise-and a b) has the same highest bit position, shifting it left by 1 gives a number higher than b, so (< ... b) correctly returns false.
2020-10-10T15:40:40Z Riastradh: Case III.  `a' has a lower bit position than `b'.  In this case, (bitwise-and a b) is at most 2^{L(b) - 1} - 1 = #b0111...1 < b/2, so (shift-left (bitwise-and a b) 1) < b.
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2020-10-10T15:44:38Z Riastradh: (hmm, not quite accurate that 2^{L(b) - 1} - 1 < b/2 always; in the event that (bitwise-and a b) takes on that value, it is accurate)
2020-10-10T15:49:12Z amirouche: it is the same result as comparing the positions of the leading 1 in both a and b but log2< does not compute the position of the leading 1.
2020-10-10T15:49:25Z Riastradh: Anyway on p. 475 it goes into the details.
2020-10-10T15:49:32Z Riastradh: amirouche: Correct.
2020-10-10T15:49:39Z amirouche: p 475?
2020-10-10T15:49:49Z amirouche: what book it is?
2020-10-10T15:50:14Z Riastradh: the paper
2020-10-10T15:50:36Z Riastradh: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-48224-5_39, pp. 469--480 of the proceedings book
2020-10-10T15:50:47Z Riastradh: (https://sci-hub.se/https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-48224-5_39 to actually read it)
2020-10-10T15:51:37Z amirouche: oh! I should learn to read!
2020-10-10T15:51:39Z amirouche: erf!
2020-10-10T15:56:45Z amirouche: Thanks a lot :)
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2020-10-12T06:58:19Z amirouche: is there anyone who would be up to create bindings for libuv library with chibi?
2020-10-12T06:58:27Z amirouche: https://libuv.org/
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2020-10-12T12:54:52Z koorosh: hi i'm using guile when i run this on repl (parallel (display "1") (display "2") (display "3"))
2020-10-12T12:55:01Z koorosh: i get diffretn outputs
2020-10-12T12:55:10Z koorosh: like 1123 and 1223
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2020-10-12T12:55:29Z koorosh: why one of the displays ran twice
2020-10-12T12:55:48Z siraben: Heh, parallel use of a serial buffer
2020-10-12T12:56:15Z koorosh: can you explain more plz i don't know what that means :)
2020-10-12T12:57:39Z siraben: koorosh:  what scheme implementation is this?
2020-10-12T12:57:52Z koorosh: guile
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2020-10-12T12:58:42Z siraben: koorosh:  https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/docs/master/guile.html/Non_002dBlocking-I_002fO.html
2020-10-12T12:59:09Z koorosh: tnx :)
2020-10-12T12:59:49Z siraben: Guile, like many Schemes, use input/output ports for data. However these ports are blocking, so trying to use them in many threads simultaneously is unpredicatble.
2020-10-12T12:59:55Z siraben: unpredictable*
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2020-10-12T13:40:39Z jcowan: amirouche: Libuv bindings IMO don't make sense: you either build your implementation with libuv at the core or you don't.  It's not something you can plug in.
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2020-10-12T15:58:08Z amirouche: it is possible to add libuv to some scheme implementations. It depends on the threading model.
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2020-10-12T15:59:11Z Zipheir: Yeah.
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2020-10-12T15:59:57Z Zipheir: It seems like you'd have to build it in at a low level, however.
2020-10-12T16:00:24Z Riastradh: Now an idiom -- and integration into various things like I/O -- for asynchronous operations is something that would make sense to me as a SRFI!  But only after a proof-of-concept has been implemented in at least two different ways on at least two different Scheme systems.
2020-10-12T16:02:41Z gwatt: Are there any schemes that use libuv natively? I know the swish runtime on top of Chez uses libuv, but I don't know of any others
2020-10-12T16:05:19Z amirouche: nodejs?
2020-10-12T16:05:26Z amirouche hides
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2020-10-12T16:18:36Z Zipheir: "Everything is a Lisp", as the saying goes.
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2020-10-12T16:22:38Z gwatt: Is supposed to refer to Greenspun's 10th rule?
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2020-10-12T16:34:57Z Zipheir: No, I think it's more recent.  Someone here proposed this equivalence relation on the grounds that virtually every language's Wikipedia page lists Lisp as an influence.
2020-10-12T16:35:49Z Zipheir: (Oops, it's not symmetric.)
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2020-10-12T17:20:35Z Zipheir: (The "influenced by" relation does give you a preorder of programming languages, though, which is cool, I guess.  What's the initial object?)
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2020-10-12T18:10:44Z siraben: Zipheir: Mathematics itself!
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2020-10-12T18:56:30Z ski: mathematics is the initial influencer ?
2020-10-12T18:57:53Z amirouche: maths are merely a mean to an end, the end is the initial influencer
2020-10-12T18:58:52Z ski: ah, teleology
2020-10-12T18:59:06Z ski: (what about coends, though ?)
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2020-10-12T19:06:32Z Riastradh: pebbles
2020-10-12T19:07:31Z amirouche: I am not suprised to read Nietzsche was against Teleology
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2020-10-12T19:49:53Z Zipheir: amirouche: What??  There's a whole silly passage in Human, All Too Human where he rails against Darwin for "forgetting the [motivating] spirit of evolution".
2020-10-12T19:53:38Z Zipheir: It sometimes seems like no-one who learned to think in Germany in the 19th century could resist attributing desires and motivations to every Capitalized Essence.
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2020-10-12T20:32:02Z jcowan: And also explaining desires and motivations using Capitalized Essences, like das Ich und das Es.
2020-10-12T20:33:01Z amirouche: Capitalized Essence?
2020-10-12T20:35:28Z amirouche: well, I read on Quora that Nietzsche is supposed to be against teleology
2020-10-12T20:35:36Z amirouche: so my source might not be very good.
2020-10-12T20:36:21Z amirouche: I understand people stopped thing in terms of teleology, it make my brain hurts when I think again about: "a mean to an end, the end is the initial influencer"
2020-10-12T20:37:00Z amirouche: I might be under the influence of modern philosophy... according to that same Quora answer, which says also that modern philosophy reject teleology.
2020-10-12T20:40:28Z amirouche: (I forgot to mention my english is hurting the conversation in general, even when I try to proof read my lines. Also my weak philosophy skills will not help!)
2020-10-12T20:41:52Z Zipheir: amirouche: "I've never had the time to analyze Beauty.  It's a Capitalized Essence; and I never seem to have the time for Capitalized Essences." --Three-Part Invention, from Gödel, Escher, Bach
2020-10-12T20:42:12Z amirouche: again, another book I should have read :)
2020-10-12T20:42:43Z Zipheir: jcowan: Good point.
2020-10-12T20:43:37Z Zipheir: amirouche: Very few people reject teleology.  The question is, who is imposing the teleological framework?
2020-10-12T20:44:31Z amirouche: (then I should stop read quora)
2020-10-12T20:45:11Z Zipheir: amirouche: Do you have a link to the discussion?
2020-10-12T20:45:49Z amirouche: Zipheir: https://www.quora.com/What-are-examples-of-teleology/answer/Paul-Trejo-1
2020-10-12T20:45:52Z jcowan: Teleology makes total sense for technology and to some extent the arts.  When we set out to construct a building, we start with its purpose.
2020-10-12T20:46:39Z Riastradh: Teleology stops making sense when you examine human endeavours like political parties.
2020-10-12T20:47:12Z amirouche: I was going to mention another capitalized word that starts with R. In that framework, of course everything does not make sense to me.
2020-10-12T20:48:03Z Zipheir: amirouche: OK, he seems to be talking about teleology in ethics, i.e. "what is the goal of Good Behavior?"
2020-10-12T20:48:09Z Riastradh: or C++
2020-10-12T20:48:40Z amirouche: I mean to write "nothing make sense"
2020-10-12T20:49:53Z Zipheir: It's not a very good answer to the more general question which was posed ("examples of teleology plz?")
2020-10-12T20:50:18Z jcowan: And we use the language of teleology when discussing evolution: we say that the octopus is designed for the shallow waters, but this is reducible to saying that octupuses that try to live in the open ocean are less likely to survive and reproduce.
2020-10-12T20:50:28Z Zipheir: Exactly.
2020-10-12T20:50:40Z Riastradh: itym octopopoppodes ftfy hth
2020-10-12T20:51:02Z Zipheir: Kant has a fascinating passage to the effect that we can't avoid teleological ideas when discussing organisms.
2020-10-12T20:51:10Z Zipheir: (Critique of Judgment, IIRC)
2020-10-12T20:51:46Z jcowan: Well, he also thought that Euclidean geometry was hard-wired in our brains.
2020-10-12T20:52:27Z Zipheir: Yeah, and that Aristotle perfected logic.  So much for Kant.
2020-10-12T20:52:28Z jcowan: Dennett has a good passage about how frequently when a philosopher says that something is unimaginable, he merely means that he can't imagine it, not that nobody can.
2020-10-12T20:53:10Z jcowan: But these are details, of course.  Kant's analysis of judging as a separate mental facility was AFAIK the first ever.
2020-10-12T20:53:32Z amirouche: it seems teleology does not make sense as part of darwin theory, if that is still a theory
2020-10-12T20:53:48Z jcowan: Thinking about thinking goes back to the Greeks, and thinking about willing goes back to St. Paul, but thinking about judging is very modern.
2020-10-12T20:54:56Z amirouche: judging is different from the justice judge?
2020-10-12T20:55:16Z amirouche: the judge merely apply the law?
2020-10-12T20:55:31Z jcowan: If he did he would just be a robot.
2020-10-12T20:55:34Z Riastradh: jcowan: patently historically inaccurate
2020-10-12T20:55:45Z Riastradh: jcowan: citation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9czBBKof7Yo, clear evidence of thinking about judging
2020-10-12T20:56:09Z jcowan: As I said, very modern.
2020-10-12T20:56:26Z Zipheir: amirouche: I think that use of "judging" goes back to (a translation of) Kant.  In the sense of "I judge that a cat is an animal".
2020-10-12T20:56:36Z Riastradh: video evidence from 33 AD, I should specify
2020-10-12T20:56:52Z Zipheir: (Probably bad quality.)
2020-10-12T20:57:27Z Zipheir: amirouche: If you've done some constructive logic, you may recognize the concept of a "judgement" in a non-legal sense.
2020-10-12T20:58:07Z amirouche: hey, I heared about a new theory, I mean theory that gaining steam among anthropologist, they say, that maybe human as part of the animal kingdom might not fully come from africa, it is mix a several species.
2020-10-12T20:58:48Z amirouche: Zipheir: this leads me to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_of_mathematics)
2020-10-12T20:59:17Z Zipheir: Yup.  Very worth investigating.
2020-10-12T21:01:36Z amirouche: The funny thing is that I discussed the above theory of human "evolution" my collegue told me I was crazy, and now it makes the news. I got a good intuition :)
2020-10-12T21:01:55Z amirouche: the truth remains to be found tho.
2020-10-12T21:05:25Z amirouche: Zipheir: from what I read, I can understand that constructivism (or judging) can be said to be modern practice. Nevertheless, people were putting together theories and applied those theories to achieve their goals for more than a few decades.
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2020-10-12T21:15:20Z Zipheir: amirouche: It's probably a very, very old idea.  It took people getting freaked out about things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolzano%E2%80%93Weierstrass_theorem to give it legs, I guess.
2020-10-12T21:17:02Z Zipheir: "Enough theorems [types] without solid evidence [algorithms]!"
2020-10-12T21:17:31Z ski: Euclid has not only "Quod Erat Demonstrandum", but also "Quod Erat Faciendum"
2020-10-12T21:18:12Z ski idly wonders what those would be in greek
2020-10-12T21:19:34Z jcowan: ὅπερ ἔδει δεῖξαι = hoper edei deixai
2020-10-12T21:20:29Z ski: for the latter ?
2020-10-12T21:26:29Z jcowan: Not sure what you are asking.
2020-10-12T21:28:25Z ski: whether it would be what "Quod Erat Faciendum" or "Quod Erat Demonstrandum" is a translation of, or perhaps something else altogether
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2020-10-12T21:40:58Z jcowan: Oh, it's a translation of "quod erat demonstrandum"
2020-10-12T21:41:33Z ski: ah, ok. ty
2020-10-12T21:41:37Z jcowan: For QEF you want ὅπερ ἔδει ποιῆσαι = hoper edei poiēsai
2020-10-12T21:41:54Z jcowan: at the end of theorems and constructions respectively
2020-10-12T21:41:58Z ski: yes
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2020-10-13T19:41:55Z amirouche: my bbtree was buggy :(
2020-10-13T19:41:57Z amirouche: the bug was in the tests :)
2020-10-13T19:42:32Z amirouche: in fact the non-mutable version seems easier to write that the mutable one, there less book-keeping to do.
2020-10-13T19:44:59Z amirouche: it is mostly based on slib wttree but with full variable names unlike slib that us cryptic names like a_k a_v ...
2020-10-13T19:45:12Z amirouche: eg. l_r is the right node of the left node of the current node in slib wttree.
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2020-10-14T12:35:20Z amirouche: wrt macro https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0638/#abstract
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2020-10-14T13:51:01Z wasamasa: lol
2020-10-14T13:51:11Z wasamasa: that won't unfuck their language, especially with regards to scoping
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2020-10-14T16:24:50Z Zipheir: Macros in Python?  What could go wrong?  And agreed, they should fix their scope issues.
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2020-10-14T16:43:19Z ski . o O ( unhygienic macros ? )
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2020-10-14T16:53:29Z Zipheir: ski: Totally.  Look at the "Hygiene and debugging" section of that page if you want to weep.
2020-10-14T16:54:28Z Zipheir: "to ensure hygiene and help debugging, the following naming scheme is recommended: ... All variable names should include the line number and the column offset, separated by an underscore."
2020-10-14T16:55:55Z ski: s/ensure/workaround lack of/, it sounds to me
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2020-10-14T17:01:26Z wasamasa: that won't help if you create identifiers in a loop
2020-10-14T17:01:43Z wasamasa: anyway, nobody will keep them from shooting themselves into the foot
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2020-10-14T17:04:18Z Zipheir: Why can't people read a couple of 30-year-old papers before putting all the work into writing an unhygienic macro system?
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2020-10-14T17:08:17Z ski: then they'd have to concede that they're not doing ground-breaking things ?
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2020-10-14T17:13:48Z Zipheir: s/not doing ground-breaking things/shoddily reinventing circa-1982 Lisp/
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2020-10-14T17:22:48Z gwatt: hygiene is nice, but less important outside of scheme. Almost every other language allows for some absolute reference to a value.
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2020-10-14T17:23:29Z gwatt: they also don't allow re-defining keywords
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2020-10-14T17:31:42Z Zipheir: "outside of Scheme": Like, in Scheme macro systems?
2020-10-14T17:32:18Z gwatt: outside of scheme = languages that are not scheme
2020-10-14T17:32:42Z gwatt: The syntax-rules/syntax-case/etc macro systems are part of the scheme language
2020-10-14T17:34:48Z Zipheir: I kid.  Macro systems are, by definition, above the languages they manipulate.
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2020-10-14T17:36:46Z Zipheir: The syntax-rules language isn't Scheme, which can be a hard lesson.
2020-10-14T17:39:04Z gwatt: But it's specified and included in r[567]rs. I am comfortable saying it's part of the scheme language
2020-10-14T17:40:49Z ManDay: Zipheir is more the philosophical type
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2020-10-14T17:41:42Z Zipheir: At least I'm not an existential type.
2020-10-14T17:41:53Z ManDay: i think the only universal definition of macros is that they make the language uglier.
2020-10-14T17:42:17Z Zipheir: (Although on second thought...)
2020-10-14T17:42:48Z Zipheir: Hah.  That at least seems to be true for non-Sexp-syntax languages.
2020-10-14T17:42:55Z Zipheir: Template Haskell, augh.
2020-10-14T17:43:44Z ManDay: frankly any purely functional language shouldnt have macros in the first place
2020-10-14T17:43:59Z wasamasa: why?
2020-10-14T17:44:16Z wasamasa: Pure is a strict template rewriter or something
2020-10-14T17:44:18Z ManDay: i mean... which takes us back to your reasoning about it being part or not... then the language stops being functional
2020-10-14T17:44:26Z wasamasa: it just keeps expanding stuff
2020-10-14T17:44:37Z gwatt: I don't know about uglier. C's assert is certainly nicer than writing `if (!thing) { fprintf(STDERR, "Assert failed: <stringified thing>\n"); exit(1); }
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2020-10-14T17:45:41Z gwatt: extra points for including __FILE__ and __LINE__
2020-10-14T17:45:42Z wasamasa: ah no, term rewriting
2020-10-14T17:45:47Z wasamasa: https://github.com/agraef/pure-lang/wiki/Rewriting
2020-10-14T17:46:14Z ManDay: gwatt: uglier in the sense of specification of the language. of course you can use them to write sleeker code, that's not what I meant
2020-10-14T17:46:46Z ManDay: personal opinion, that is. some may find syntax-rules is a beautiful addition to scheme
2020-10-14T17:46:53Z gwatt: ManDay: ah, that makes more sense.
2020-10-14T17:46:56Z wasamasa: it allows certain elegant things
2020-10-14T17:47:28Z wasamasa: like specifying that (when condition body ...) is really (if condition (begin body ...))
2020-10-14T17:48:04Z ManDay: meh
2020-10-14T17:48:04Z wasamasa: I'm feeling conflicted on anything more complex though :D
2020-10-14T17:50:48Z ManDay: i think the only place where I am conflicted with my opinion is the short-circuiting of boolean ops, iirc that's only possible due to their definition as a macro, no?
2020-10-14T17:54:22Z ManDay: ah yes, it was described here: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/further.html#./further:h0
2020-10-14T17:55:52Z Zipheir: Sure, but it really reduces to the semantics of `if'.  and, or, when, unless are inessential; if is the form that does the magic.
2020-10-14T17:56:00Z ManDay: Since I hardly ever use non-functional things, it's not a big concern to me (or rather: I'd expect short-circuiting to be an transparent implementation feature), but I guess defining it through a macro like that is nicer than spec'ing it out of the box.
2020-10-14T17:56:30Z amirouche: code is specification :)
2020-10-14T17:58:02Z Zipheir: What?
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2020-10-14T18:08:09Z amirouche: https://i.imgur.com/zGwzppS.jpeg
2020-10-14T18:09:34Z gwatt: ahahah, that's pretty good
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2020-10-14T18:11:13Z ManDay: that's accurate, nice!
2020-10-14T18:11:31Z Zipheir: Funny, but the author should read SICP.
2020-10-14T18:13:21Z Zipheir: If code were regarded as a specification, most programs would have completely incomprehensible specifications.
2020-10-14T18:13:57Z Zipheir: And then there's the question--does the compiler preserve the specification?
2020-10-14T18:14:26Z Zipheir: Obviously it's a joke, but I'm kind of sad about the lack of understanding.
2020-10-14T18:16:25Z amirouche: specification is an idea, code is execution. Sure reality is more complex that theory.
2020-10-14T18:16:31Z ManDay: Zipheir: Are you in a bad mood today? ^^
2020-10-14T18:16:42Z amirouche: I am not sure i understand what you think Zipheir
2020-10-14T18:17:29Z ManDay: I think what the cartoon conveys (at least that's my personal interpretation) is that writing a specification thus precise amounts to the same effort as implementing it right away.
2020-10-14T18:17:30Z gwatt: Zipheir: I think the point is that the "business guy" who's claiming that advances in AI and computer inference of intent will lead to programmers losing jobs has a total lack of understanding.
2020-10-14T18:17:35Z ManDay: And that agrees with my experience.
2020-10-14T18:17:39Z Zipheir: Nope, I just think it's a very interesting subject with many more interesting jokes that could be made.
2020-10-14T18:18:38Z Zipheir: gwatt: I guess so.
2020-10-14T18:19:20Z Zipheir: It does raise a great question: Is a sufficiently precise specification the same as the program?
2020-10-14T18:20:01Z gwatt: Yes
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2020-10-14T18:21:36Z ManDay: Erratum: You are in a *philosophical* mood today, definitely!
2020-10-14T18:22:25Z amirouche: Zipheir: specification are incomprehensible
2020-10-14T18:22:49Z ManDay: Now that I don't agree with
2020-10-14T18:22:56Z amirouche: I mean non technical person do not understand the detail, they only give the idea.
2020-10-14T18:23:28Z Zipheir: The idea of a formal description of a computation is to make it clear to everyone without adding extraneous detail, I suppose.
2020-10-14T18:24:31Z Zipheir: This is why we have formal semantics and proof systems, although they're probably pretty arcane to some programmers.
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2020-10-14T18:26:01Z Zipheir: The type-theory buff would say that, someday, we will only have "typers"--the compiler will construct the evidence for the types they write.
2020-10-14T18:26:53Z Zipheir: (And the logic programmer would say "that's called Prolog".)
2020-10-14T18:27:58Z amirouche: _dmiles[d]: check this out ^
2020-10-14T18:28:23Z amirouche: we had the debate whether do use prolog to _describe_ gui
2020-10-14T18:29:15Z amirouche: I think it is too far ahead in the future, I mean even if it boring gui code is difficult to describe in a logic language.
2020-10-14T18:30:15Z Zipheir: "It is true that there is a button at (X,Y).  It is true that the button text is in the font Monaco.  It is true that ..."
2020-10-14T18:30:52Z Zipheir: No one would go to Aristotle's talks to hear that kind of logic.
2020-10-14T18:31:31Z amirouche: "It true it is nice"...
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2020-10-14T21:50:39Z _dmiles[d]: amirouche: hehe yes.. everyone eventuaslly must invent prolog.. especially type theorists
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2020-10-14T21:51:10Z _dmiles[d]: really prolog is the ideal language to describe the GUI
2020-10-14T21:51:40Z _dmiles[d]: but not maybe ideal to describe the behavours behind the widgets
2020-10-14T21:52:16Z jcowan: Well, I don't know: how much of Prolog do you need?  THere's facts and nothing but, like CSS, and there is Datalog, and then there is full Prolog.
2020-10-14T21:52:37Z _dmiles[d]: now think about a a GUI coded in Scheme .. that is what the Prolog will look like
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2020-10-14T21:53:22Z _dmiles[d]: (but in P-Expressions instead of S-Expressions)
2020-10-14T21:53:24Z jcowan: see Schelog if you want a full Scheme-syntax embedded in Scheme
2020-10-14T21:55:19Z _dmiles[d]: Hah i _meant_ to say "maybe not ideal to describe the behaviors behind the widgets"
2020-10-14T21:55:52Z _dmiles[d]: Would the widgety behaviors be hard in Scheme? Probably not.. so I not sure if when I meant to say  "maybe not ideal to describe the behaviors behind the widgets" would been true
2020-10-14T21:58:36Z _dmiles[d]: https://dev.to/goober99/learn-racket-by-example-gui-programming-3epm  looks very livable
2020-10-14T21:59:51Z _dmiles[d]: if not using Racket is there a standard GUI language language?
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2020-10-14T22:28:01Z mdhughes: The only real programs are machine-language. Any programming language is by definition an abstract, lossy spec that sorta defines that program.
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2020-10-14T22:32:17Z iv-so: hello schemers
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2020-10-14T22:47:31Z aeth: mdhughes: Alternatively, any low level thing is a potentially imperfect expression of the high-level concept, which should be fully portable to a lot of different architectures over time.
2020-10-14T22:49:05Z mdhughes: No, the machine language is perfect, because it's tuned to that specific HW/SW combination. The same HLL program may compile into very differently buggy programs on other HW/SW combinations.
2020-10-14T22:50:10Z mdhughes: Even as simple a program as (/ 1 0) may be differently wrong.
2020-10-14T22:52:00Z mdhughes: My favorite are condition-sensitive compile bugs. `make clean; make all` might be very different from `make all` if you have existing .o files.
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2020-10-14T22:52:38Z mdhughes: And if your build system runs in parallel, which one finishes first can be random, and might make it fail to compile or link.
2020-10-14T22:53:11Z mdhughes: Really, it's kind of shocking we manage to produce working software at all. Well, some don't even do that.
2020-10-14T22:54:34Z iv-so: lol
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2020-10-14T22:57:22Z iv-so: I need an executable called scheme-script for akku, where I can read about its interface?
2020-10-14T22:58:14Z mdhughes: That's Chez Scheme, the CSUG https://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/
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2020-10-14T23:03:12Z iv-so: Makes sense now. I have guile, but bootstrapping for guile is bugged and it fallbacks to chez.
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2020-10-14T23:16:35Z groovy: can sum1 explain lambda beta reduction
2020-10-14T23:16:54Z groovy: why is it that (lx.x)(ly.y)->(ly.y)
2020-10-14T23:17:35Z Zipheir: groovy: What is (λx.x)y ?
2020-10-14T23:17:55Z Zipheir: I mean, what does it β reduce to?
2020-10-14T23:18:20Z groovy: lx.y
2020-10-14T23:18:45Z Zipheir: What?
2020-10-14T23:19:14Z Zipheir: You replace x with y in the expression x, so you get y.
2020-10-14T23:19:41Z groovy: do you replace the x in lx with y as well
2020-10-14T23:19:47Z iv-so: no
2020-10-14T23:20:00Z groovy: so then why is it not lx.y?
2020-10-14T23:20:00Z iv-so: you forgot to strip the lambda
2020-10-14T23:20:02Z Zipheir: So (λx.x)(λy.y) beta reduces to (λy.y) because x gets replaced with (λy.y)
2020-10-14T23:20:21Z groovy: where does the lx go then
2020-10-14T23:20:44Z Zipheir: It's removed.
2020-10-14T23:20:58Z groovy: the notes I'm looking at says (lx.e1)e2 == e1[e2/x]
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2020-10-14T23:21:14Z iv-so: that's right
2020-10-14T23:21:18Z groovy: so I take e1 which is x in this case and replace any instance of x with e2 which is y
2020-10-14T23:21:44Z groovy: or rather ly.y
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2020-10-14T23:22:52Z iv-so: there is no mention of lx on the lhs of the rule
2020-10-14T23:23:19Z groovy: o
2020-10-14T23:23:26Z groovy: hm
2020-10-14T23:24:36Z Zipheir: mdhughes: The "real" program is whatever the machine does?  That sounds a lot like "the real geometry ('gaia' + 'metron') is how the farmland gets divvied up."
2020-10-14T23:24:39Z groovy: ok so with (lx.x (lx.x x ))y why is the reduction y(lx.x x) and not y(ly.y y)
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2020-10-14T23:25:29Z groovy: yoi take x(lx.x x) and replace all the x's with y's no?
2020-10-14T23:25:33Z iv-so: bc inner x is bound by inner lambda
2020-10-14T23:26:30Z groovy: hm I think I'm just getting too far ahead of myself. I don't understand scheme enough/at all
2020-10-14T23:26:36Z mdhughes: Zipheir: Well, sure. Geometry draws these imaginary straight lines, that's the HLL program. Reality is fractal, there are no borders, just a shifting mass of atoms roughly in that area. Every footstep disturbs the border.
2020-10-14T23:26:42Z Zipheir: (λx.x (λx.x x))y => (λx.x x)y => y y
2020-10-14T23:26:45Z iv-so: your rule works only for expressions with uniquely named lambda arguments
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2020-10-14T23:27:46Z groovy: Zipheir:  https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ZUUuQTUu/Screenshot_20201014-192733_Drive.jpg
2020-10-14T23:27:58Z iv-so: that is why de Bruijn encoding was invented
2020-10-14T23:28:51Z Zipheir: groovy: OK?
2020-10-14T23:29:13Z groovy: o i c I had it wrong I thought there were 2 inner xs
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2020-10-14T23:31:38Z groovy: doesn't (lx.x (lx.x))y -> (lx.x)y -> y
2020-10-14T23:33:22Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-10-14T23:33:37Z Zipheir: groovy: Which book are you reading?
2020-10-14T23:33:44Z Zipheir: Or is this just homework?
2020-10-14T23:34:10Z groovy: none it's some notes I found online after coming across lambdas
2020-10-14T23:34:29Z groovy: I mean I started going through sicp a little while back but I'm in like chapter 1/2
2020-10-14T23:34:50Z Zipheir: groovy: If you want a really nice intro, http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/books/gjm.lambook88.pdf
2020-10-14T23:35:13Z Zipheir: It builds an ML/Scheme sort of functional language from scratch on λ-calculus.
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2020-10-15T00:56:16Z groovy: Zipheir: thx i'll check it out
2020-10-15T00:57:32Z Riastradh: fortunately (/ 1. 0.) is the same on essentially all hardware, thanks to the consistent standardization of floating-point arithmetic, unlike integer arithmetic
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2020-10-15T01:48:13Z mdhughes: Annoyance: Editors show #\; as a comment, not a character. It works in the actual parser, but I can't ever use it in code, have to write #\x3b
2020-10-15T01:50:05Z mdhughes: (by "editors" I mean Vim and BBEdit, all I care about)
2020-10-15T01:51:03Z jcowan: Have you filed bugs?
2020-10-15T01:53:40Z mdhughes: BBEdit is a problem, since I don't know who did the Scheme language module, it's not standard.
2020-10-15T01:54:02Z mdhughes: Vim, I guess I can.
2020-10-15T01:57:46Z iv-so: Emacs works fine, cool
2020-10-15T02:00:45Z aeth: mdhughes: what's worse is that #; is probably not handled correctly and #; #; almost certainly isn't
2020-10-15T02:02:12Z iv-so: how should it?
2020-10-15T02:02:18Z mdhughes: Yeah, not at all. But I'm a caveman commenter, ;; and #| |# are fine.
2020-10-15T02:02:50Z aeth: #; #; foo bar baz
2020-10-15T02:02:58Z aeth: baz shouldn't be highlighted
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2020-10-15T02:03:04Z aeth: I don't know if Emacs can even handle that, though
2020-10-15T02:03:22Z aeth: Emacs does manage to handle #; foo bar baz, though.
2020-10-15T02:03:46Z aeth: But it doesn't handle #;\nfoo
2020-10-15T02:04:08Z iv-so: I didn't even know scheme has #;
2020-10-15T02:04:38Z aeth: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-62/srfi-62.html
2020-10-15T02:05:07Z aeth: It's core in R7RS. Idk if it is in R6RS.
2020-10-15T02:07:19Z iv-so: someday I'll read r*rs
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2020-10-15T02:09:59Z _dmiles[d]: is aeth=amirouche ?
2020-10-15T02:10:19Z mdhughes: #; ⟨interlexeme space⟩ ⟨datum⟩
2020-10-15T02:13:30Z _dmiles[d]: aeth: worked on a triple store ?
2020-10-15T02:15:05Z aeth: _dmiles[d]: #f
2020-10-15T02:15:21Z aeth: aeth is aeth
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2020-10-15T02:26:43Z _dmiles[d]: thx
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2020-10-15T12:21:10Z mdhughes: Made a demo game for my graphics library, in Chez: https://mdhughes.tech/garden-0-9-1/
2020-10-15T12:21:55Z wasamasa: is there some rendering error or is it really supposed to be just a link to a zip file?
2020-10-15T12:22:41Z mdhughes: Correct, this is beta. Only works on Mac OS X for the moment, 1.0 will do more.
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2020-10-15T14:31:29Z amirouche: _dmiles[d]: I am arew!!!
2020-10-15T14:31:39Z amirouche: _dmiles[d]: I changed my nickname again
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2020-10-15T15:12:07Z wasamasa: nickname screw
2020-10-15T15:16:02Z amirouche: anyway, I can talk like arew, amz3 and zig
2020-10-15T15:16:29Z wasamasa: why would you do this?
2020-10-15T15:16:42Z wasamasa: unhappy with just a fragmented scheme ecosystem?
2020-10-15T15:17:16Z amirouche: you nstore (SRFI-168) is neat, I will make it part of my soon to me released new grand scheme plan plot. I will also add bits of vnstore implemented on top SRFI-167 over foundationdb.
2020-10-15T15:17:41Z amirouche: triple store are the future of webdev
2020-10-15T15:17:48Z wasamasa: lol
2020-10-15T15:17:56Z wasamasa: sell hackernews on it and I'll believe you
2020-10-15T15:18:21Z wasamasa: > In particular, the SQL programming language is very difficult to embed in Scheme without fallback to string interpolations. This could explain the poor support of RDBMS in Scheme implementations.
2020-10-15T15:18:31Z wasamasa: weeeeell...
2020-10-15T15:18:41Z amirouche: meh hackernews is for quick-win-poor-code-fill-the-blank kind-of things, not engineering. They can over-engineer git push tho.
2020-10-15T15:18:57Z amirouche: wasamasa: it is true!
2020-10-15T15:19:00Z wasamasa: nope
2020-10-15T15:19:28Z wasamasa: nearly every rdbms figured out how to set numbered/named parameters
2020-10-15T15:19:35Z amirouche: you can not have SQL without string interpolation, and coming up with a DSL that is portable across database is too difficult. Nobody succeed so far.
2020-10-15T15:19:57Z wasamasa: (query "SELECT * FROM x WHERE y = ?" "z")
2020-10-15T15:19:59Z wasamasa: easypeasy
2020-10-15T15:20:27Z wasamasa: now give me the scheme nobel prize for this discovery
2020-10-15T15:20:50Z amirouche: yeah... not impossible with string interpollation, but you do not get all the good things that can come up with a scheme representation
2020-10-15T15:20:56Z wasamasa: in fact, having query strings is the lowest common denominator
2020-10-15T15:21:14Z wasamasa: which faciliates better, not worse interoperation compared with imposing a tree of s-expressions on everyone
2020-10-15T15:21:18Z amirouche: (you can still rely on database introspection tho)
2020-10-15T15:21:44Z wasamasa: no, the real problem is that someone got to write something like jdbc to plug all kinds of interesting databases into your preferred scheme system
2020-10-15T15:22:48Z wasamasa: which is a boring and thankless job compared to inventing an API for a pure-scheme triple store exactly one person out there will use
2020-10-15T15:23:07Z amirouche: the problem is... marketing.
2020-10-15T15:23:16Z wasamasa: maybe two if you keep mentioning them here
2020-10-15T15:23:41Z amirouche: two?
2020-10-15T15:23:46Z wasamasa: yes, you and me
2020-10-15T15:24:15Z amirouche: the really interesting stuff is okvs (srfi-167), nstore is just a neat trick.
2020-10-15T15:24:21Z amirouche: that is possible with okvs.
2020-10-15T15:24:26Z wasamasa: I have an upcoming project storing a laughable amount of data to later run queries on
2020-10-15T15:24:41Z wasamasa: maybe I won't use sqlite this time because I dread generating queries programmatically
2020-10-15T15:24:56Z gwatt: is laughable small or huge?
2020-10-15T15:25:01Z amirouche: what would make you understand that srfi-167 is great?
2020-10-15T15:25:22Z wasamasa: it's a thousand rows with a fixed set of metadata
2020-10-15T15:25:31Z amirouche: s/understand/convince/
2020-10-15T15:25:35Z wasamasa: so nothing a pure scheme system should have issues with
2020-10-15T15:26:13Z amirouche: of course, if you have less than 1GB of data... less than RAM... nothing is difficult. You might be suprised to learn that I use srfi-167 and 168 in my webui work
2020-10-15T15:26:28Z wasamasa: not really, I expect dogfooding as minimum requirement :D
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2020-10-15T15:27:25Z gwatt: amirouche: probably some examples of srfi-167 in practice
2020-10-15T15:27:29Z wasamasa: yes, that
2020-10-15T15:27:40Z wasamasa: and I doubt I'll use srfi-167 directly
2020-10-15T15:28:25Z wasamasa: I don't think in terms of a hash table with string keys and values, I think in terms of some higher-level data types I can perform queries with
2020-10-15T15:28:26Z gwatt: Especially examples next to something like sqlite, postgres, or just hashtables or alists
2020-10-15T15:28:56Z wasamasa: be it SQL, prolog, whatever
2020-10-15T15:30:07Z wasamasa: the only place I've seen triples mentioned was on some CL website and wikipedia's explanation of RDF :D
2020-10-15T15:31:31Z wasamasa: and please don't come at me with "Just implement a graph database on top of that", I want to do an application, not research
2020-10-15T15:33:09Z wasamasa: this is a community of people prone to making their own libraries, but that's not how you win users over
2020-10-15T15:33:30Z amirouche: we already discussed that. Triple stores implement a superset of property graphdb.. what ever you can do with a property graph, you can with a triple store, except you can have hyper-edges for less the cost than in a triplestore (at least as part of a srfi-167 implementation)
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2020-10-15T15:35:21Z amirouche: And you can switch storage with leveldb or rocksdb or lmdb or foundationdb or sqlite... which have different memory and disk features
2020-10-15T15:36:17Z mdhughes: I do need to look into thunderchez's sqlite3 API. That's all I use for most apps.
2020-10-15T15:36:39Z amirouche: unlike if you go with neo4j you are forced into a wanna-be bigdata database which consumes all the RAM it can find. with srfi-167 you have the choice :)
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2020-10-15T15:36:49Z wasamasa: sure, but where is the query language
2020-10-15T15:37:01Z wasamasa: all I see is a select+where procedure
2020-10-15T15:37:11Z amirouche: the query language of srfi-168? or srfi-167?
2020-10-15T15:37:20Z wasamasa: doesn't matter, can be srfi-1234
2020-10-15T15:37:31Z amirouche: the query language is a set of scheme procedures :)
2020-10-15T15:37:34Z wasamasa: but I do need a query language instead of writing procedural code
2020-10-15T15:38:24Z wasamasa: I mean, you started this with "query strings are bad, use this instead"
2020-10-15T15:38:42Z amirouche: in both case. in the case of the triple store it is pattern matching (or like some people call it: template language) and in the case of okvs, it is lower level procedural code.. i guess.
2020-10-15T15:39:00Z amirouche: I am not confortable with the term procedural
2020-10-15T15:39:19Z wasamasa: you better be, it's how the vast majority of computers work
2020-10-15T15:41:22Z wasamasa: relevant: https://p.hagelb.org/fault-tolerance.png
2020-10-15T15:41:55Z amirouche: :P
2020-10-15T15:42:06Z amirouche: speaking of that I organize a meetup about foundationdb
2020-10-15T15:42:38Z amirouche: https://www.meetup.com/FoundationDB-Paris-Meetup/events/273609813/
2020-10-15T15:42:49Z wasamasa: anyway, I suspect I can't use that yet because I'd have to get all the other SRFIs going first
2020-10-15T15:42:53Z amirouche: someone will talk about the record store
2020-10-15T15:43:03Z amirouche: wasamasa: using chicken?
2020-10-15T15:43:05Z wasamasa: yup
2020-10-15T15:44:42Z amirouche: well, you do not necessarly need everything stadnard to be able to use it. You can drop hooks and use lists instead of generators from srfi-167, in srfi-168 you can drop mapping hash and use alist.
2020-10-15T15:44:46Z wasamasa: and the data would probably even fit triple stores
2020-10-15T15:45:19Z wasamasa: it's a taxonomy database mapping species to identifying attributes
2020-10-15T15:46:09Z wasamasa: the plan is to make a web application that allows finding species by specifying several matching attributes instead of browsing wikipedia endlessly
2020-10-15T15:46:23Z amirouche: ah great!
2020-10-15T15:46:34Z amirouche: where do you pick up the data from?
2020-10-15T15:46:44Z wasamasa: I wrote a dumb script using the wikimedia API
2020-10-15T15:46:49Z amirouche: hm ok
2020-10-15T15:46:57Z wasamasa: it's not cleaned up yet, but shouldn't be hard at all
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2020-10-15T15:47:53Z wasamasa: ideally I'd have two versions of this so that I have a meaningful comparison of sql and nstores
2020-10-15T15:54:36Z amirouche: gwatt: I made several example with srfi-167 like https://github.com/amirouche/babelia/ the search engine. But I guess it is too adavanced or niche, I need to build something that people can relate to..
2020-10-15T15:55:25Z amirouche: in babelia there is several "abstractions" that builds the search engine like inverted index, mulitmap, counters, record store all those take part to build the SE
2020-10-15T15:55:26Z gwatt: amirouche: that's cool, but it's not linked in the srfi-167 document.
2020-10-15T15:55:56Z amirouche: gwatt: sure, ah.. hmm.. oh. hmm.
2020-10-15T15:56:24Z wasamasa: anyway, I feel about this a bit like before I wrote esxml-query.el
2020-10-15T15:56:58Z wasamasa: previously: use regex or write awful procedural code to extract data from xml/html, then: just use CSS selectors and be done
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2020-10-15T15:57:23Z wasamasa: it was a week of tinkering for less than 1kSLOC, but still, I wouldn't want to do that to anyone
2020-10-15T15:57:39Z wasamasa: and the funny thing is that it seems to have inspired some people to do their own
2020-10-15T16:01:47Z wasamasa: I'll eagerly be awaiting your sparql srfi or whatever it is you deem acceptable
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2020-10-15T16:10:41Z amirouche: I started a sparl to nstore mapping but i was too lazy to make it complete... I will work on it and post it one day.
2020-10-15T16:11:19Z amirouche: if you have an idea about some data, that would be interesting for that purpose let me know
2020-10-15T16:11:34Z amirouche: it requires also numeric data, to be able to do avg, sum...
2020-10-15T16:11:41Z amirouche: or even groupby
2020-10-15T16:12:13Z amirouche: maybe... maybe... I will just use wikidata lexicographic dataset.
2020-10-15T16:12:22Z amirouche: and compute the avg length of a word. that would be good.
2020-10-15T16:12:44Z amirouche: anyway, it is motivating to have some feedback!
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2020-10-15T16:45:27Z jcowan: the truly awesome DB API is the Bigloo sqlite API, which however is a perfectly good interface to any DB.
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2020-10-15T16:45:55Z wasamasa: hum, is that so
2020-10-15T16:45:59Z wasamasa: I enjoy sql-de-lite
2020-10-15T16:47:06Z wasamasa: I remember bigloo's page a bit more... conservative
2020-10-15T16:56:11Z wasamasa: hm, not sure I buy that as perfect
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2020-10-15T18:15:03Z Zipheir: Wow, Bigloo must be one of a very few mature Schemes without SRFI 1.
2020-10-15T18:16:14Z Zipheir: OK, they have a subset.
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2020-10-15T18:18:37Z Zipheir: Indeed, that's a nice SQLite language.
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2020-10-15T18:37:06Z jcowan: Lassi and I have discussed it a bit on Schemepersist and realized that with SRFI 158 accumulators you can make it even better.  I need to write up the final state of that discussion.
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2020-10-15T20:12:06Z amirouche: that: http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Bigloo/doc/bigloo-19.html
2020-10-15T20:12:08Z amirouche: ?
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2020-10-15T23:47:07Z mdhughes: I'm not one to name-shame projects, but "big toilet"?
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2020-10-15T23:53:06Z jcowan: Possibly, but the author is Spanish and working at INRIA, which is in France.  He may not have been aware of it.
2020-10-15T23:53:13Z jcowan: And then again it may be a joke on us.
2020-10-15T23:54:30Z jcowan: There are real people surnamed Bigloo.
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2020-10-15T23:57:09Z foof: And probably people called Big Lou.
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2020-10-16T04:05:04Z hoppfull: Can we use define-syntax such that (g _ y) turns into (lambda (x) (g x y))?
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2020-10-16T05:14:54Z Zipheir: hoppfull: You can do something close.
2020-10-16T05:18:23Z Zipheir: hoppfull: cut/cute is similar, and widely implemented https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-26/
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2020-10-16T23:36:21Z libfud: are there computer algebra libraries for scheme?
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2020-10-16T23:36:43Z libfud: I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of smaller ones, but I mean popular within the scheme community
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2020-10-17T00:10:41Z jcowan: libfud: Racket, Guile, and MIT would be the places to look.
2020-10-17T00:11:06Z libfud: the channels?
2020-10-17T00:11:35Z jcowan: I meant the libraries themselves
2020-10-17T00:11:53Z jcowan: but yes, you could ask in #racket and #guile, though of course no guarantees of portability.
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2020-10-17T00:12:01Z libfud: right
2020-10-17T00:12:34Z libfud: it's complex enough that I wouldn't expect much portability between the different scheme dialects
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2020-10-17T01:52:10Z jcowan: I would, actually, but speculation is fruitless.
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2020-10-17T01:57:00Z libfud: I think it depends on how you qualify portability
2020-10-17T01:57:30Z libfud: is it portable if you only have to make a couple changes?
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2020-10-17T12:55:32Z aaaaaa: Hi all. Have anybody used Lisp/Scheme for static webpage generation? I would be interested in how it was done
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2020-10-17T13:49:41Z wasamasa: yes, it has been done
2020-10-17T13:49:46Z wasamasa: what about it?
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2020-10-17T13:54:31Z amirouche: you need a procedure sxml->html.
2020-10-17T13:55:17Z amirouche: aaaaaa: look at https://github.com/amirouche/zombie
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2020-10-17T14:19:36Z aaaaaa: amirouche: thanks
2020-10-17T14:21:46Z mdhughes: There's also awful, which isn't so bad: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/awful
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2020-10-17T14:25:58Z wasamasa: lol
2020-10-17T14:26:05Z wasamasa: I found a bug in five minutes of using it
2020-10-17T14:26:08Z wasamasa: it is pretty bad
2020-10-17T14:26:19Z wasamasa: and not for static generation either
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2020-10-17T14:29:02Z mason: wasamasa: Wasn't one of these, was it? https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/awful#known-bugs-and-limitations
2020-10-17T14:29:31Z wasamasa: no, it was it not binding to the host specified via CLI
2020-10-17T14:30:00Z wasamasa: which if you ask me is one of the worse kinds of bug, thinking you're secure because you bound the server to localhost, but it actually listens to requests from outside
2020-10-17T14:30:07Z mason: wasamasa: Oh, was that the 1.0.1 changelog entry? Or a different one?
2020-10-17T14:30:30Z wasamasa: yes
2020-10-17T14:30:37Z mason: Thanks for reporting it!
2020-10-17T14:30:38Z terpri: there's also haunt https://dthompson.us/projects/haunt.html , which supports sxml, texinfo, skribe, markdown and plain html by default
2020-10-17T14:30:56Z wasamasa: if you want a static site generator, I use http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/hyde
2020-10-17T14:31:01Z wasamasa: I also wrote my own for my git repos
2020-10-17T14:31:23Z wasamasa: but again, I'd be more curious about a more specific question than "how it was done"
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2020-10-17T15:52:20Z amirouche: +1
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2020-10-17T23:49:10Z mega_hater: hi
2020-10-17T23:49:14Z mega_hater: what is thigs
2020-10-17T23:49:15Z mega_hater: this
2020-10-17T23:49:23Z aeth: this is where we Scheme
2020-10-17T23:49:39Z Riastradh: ...is this gavino?
2020-10-17T23:49:43Z mega_hater: the pyramid
2020-10-17T23:50:02Z aeth: Riastradh: possibly
2020-10-17T23:50:44Z cer0: Riastradh: lol
2020-10-17T23:50:50Z mega_hater: i am blunted.
2020-10-17T23:51:27Z aeth: rudybot: looks like you have chatbot competition now
2020-10-17T23:51:32Z rudybot: aeth: ,chatbotics is A chatbot may not ignore a human or, through inaction, allow a human to have an unanswered query.
2020-10-17T23:51:44Z mega_hater: rubybot: suck my dick
2020-10-17T23:51:51Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2020-10-17T23:51:59Z Riastradh has set mode +q *!*@s91904427.blix.com
2020-10-17T23:52:17Z aeth: oh, I'm disappointed that rudybot apparently has a profanity filter.
2020-10-17T23:52:28Z Riastradh: Maybe it's actually a gavino filter.
2020-10-17T23:52:28Z aeth: I was grinning hoping that it would say something funny
2020-10-17T23:52:47Z Riastradh: <rudybot> .oO(nah, not worthwhile to respond to gavino)
2020-10-17T23:53:36Z mega_hater left #scheme
2020-10-17T23:53:41Z Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh
2020-10-18T00:08:10Z autumn[m]: rudybot: who is gavino?
2020-10-18T00:08:15Z rudybot: autumn[m]: republican_devil is a troll also known as Gavino.  He's a rather special brand of troll who has decided to grow quite attached to #scheme since he showed up about five or six years ago.
2020-10-18T00:08:36Z autumn[m]: ah thank you, that was actually informative
2020-10-18T00:09:31Z Zipheir: Wow, that was.
2020-10-18T00:12:02Z jcowan: aeth: No, but if you address him as "rubybot" you can't expect a response.
2020-10-18T00:12:50Z Riastradh: fifteen years ago, now
2020-10-18T00:13:11Z Riastradh: rudybot: (+ 1 2)
2020-10-18T00:13:15Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (+ 1 2)
2020-10-18T00:13:22Z Riastradh: I guess jcowan was right.
2020-10-18T00:13:23Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2020-10-18T00:13:26Z Riastradh: heh
2020-10-18T00:13:27Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2020-10-18T00:13:27Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 3
2020-10-18T00:14:44Z aeth: jcowan: good observation
2020-10-18T00:15:04Z aeth: that's really unfortunate, I expected that troll to be trolled by the bot for 20 or so minutes before realizing that it's a bot
2020-10-18T00:15:14Z aeth: but the troll wasn't even good enough to get the name right
2020-10-18T00:15:23Z Riastradh: oh, rubybot, heh
2020-10-18T00:15:39Z aeth: this is a Ruby channel, right?
2020-10-18T00:16:13Z _[d] joined #scheme
2020-10-18T00:16:21Z aeth: rudybot: puts "Hello world!"
2020-10-18T00:16:22Z rudybot: aeth: I love how in ruby, you can actually do foo = "Hello, World"; foo["Hello"] = "Goodbye"; puts foo;
2020-10-18T00:16:27Z Zipheir: aeth: #scheme just needs an ELIZA bot for all the trolls (all 3 of them).
2020-10-18T00:16:56Z aeth: that was actually a good bot response...
2020-10-18T00:17:04Z libfud: rudybot: (define x 1) (define foo (delay (+ x 1))) (set! x 2) (display x)
2020-10-18T00:17:06Z rudybot: libfud: (define md5-consts (delay (display "Calculating MD5 constants") (list->vector (map (lambda (x) (floor (* #x100000000 (sin x)))) (iota 64 1)))))
2020-10-18T00:17:16Z libfud: wat
2020-10-18T00:19:38Z libfud: I wrote the wrong thing at the end but I figured out what I wanted to in a repl
2020-10-18T00:20:54Z Zipheir: The annoying thing about rudybot is that it defaults to random quotes, not evaluating Scheme.
2020-10-18T00:21:00Z autumn[m]: rudybot: eval (define x 1) (define foo (delay (+ x 1))) (set! x 2) (display x)
2020-10-18T00:21:06Z rudybot: autumn[m]: your sandbox is ready
2020-10-18T00:21:07Z rudybot: autumn[m]: ; stdout: "2"
2020-10-18T00:21:11Z Zipheir: Getting a better bot for the channel would be a good project.
2020-10-18T00:21:41Z libfud: rudybot: eval (define x 1) (define foo (delay (+ x 1))) (force foo) (set! x 2) (display (force foo))
2020-10-18T00:21:44Z autumn[m]: rudybot seems kind of amusing though to be honest, at least sometimes
2020-10-18T00:21:46Z rudybot: libfud: your sandbox is ready
2020-10-18T00:21:46Z rudybot: libfud: ; stdout: "2"
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2020-10-18T03:09:25Z koorosh: hi whats  the correct way of rewriting a nested function definition using lambda
2020-10-18T03:09:26Z koorosh: for example how should i write this using lambda (define (f a b) (define (g c d)) (g b a))?
2020-10-18T03:15:53Z ski: rudybot: eval (define (f a b) (define (g c d)) (g b a))
2020-10-18T03:15:54Z rudybot: ski: error: eval:1:16: define: bad syntax (no expressions for procedure body) <NEWLINE>   in: (define (g c d))
2020-10-18T03:16:25Z brendyyn: koorosh: The inner define can become a let, which it's self can be expanded as a lambda
2020-10-18T03:17:47Z brendyyn: koorosh: actually your inner define is wrong, it has no body
2020-10-18T03:18:33Z koorosh: yeah sorry about the example
2020-10-18T03:18:51Z koorosh: (define fast-exp-iter
2020-10-18T03:18:51Z koorosh:   (letrec ([iter
2020-10-18T03:18:51Z koorosh: 	    (lambda (b n product)
2020-10-18T03:18:51Z koorosh: 	      (cond
2020-10-18T03:18:53Z brendyyn: im making you something that will explain, 1 sec
2020-10-18T03:18:54Z koorosh: 	       [(zero? n) 1]
2020-10-18T03:18:58Z koorosh: 	       [(= n 1) (* product b)]
2020-10-18T03:19:01Z koorosh: 	       [(even? n) (iter (* b b) (/ n 2) product)]
2020-10-18T03:19:04Z koorosh: 	       [else (iter b (- n 1) b)]))])
2020-10-18T03:19:08Z koorosh:     (lambda (b n) (iter b n 1))))
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2020-10-18T03:19:12Z koorosh: is this a good way to write it?
2020-10-18T03:19:16Z koorosh: ty :)
2020-10-18T03:21:29Z ski: no, it has a bug
2020-10-18T03:22:07Z koorosh: ski: what is it?
2020-10-18T03:22:22Z ski: try calling it on some sample inputs
2020-10-18T03:22:43Z brendyyn: i tried expanding it here https://paste.debian.net/1167644/
2020-10-18T03:23:32Z ski: you flipped the order of the parameters of `g'
2020-10-18T03:23:40Z brendyyn: yeah i noticed that
2020-10-18T03:23:46Z brendyyn: just because i made it + for the example
2020-10-18T03:26:21Z koorosh: ski: sry i don't get it what's the problem?
2020-10-18T03:28:57Z koorosh: brendyyn: if i rewrite the fast-exp-iter example using let it give me a warning about unbound iter variable but i don't get it while using letrec why is that is it because of iter being recursive?
2020-10-18T03:30:15Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-10-18T03:30:15Z ski: koorosh> (fast-exp-iter 2 7)
2020-10-18T03:33:15Z koorosh: ski:  yeah it has some problems
2020-10-18T03:33:43Z ski: i would make sure the accumulator is always used
2020-10-18T03:34:55Z koorosh: one more question what if i wanted to use the same binding for b n that i define for fast-exp and not redifing it as parameters to iter, what should i do for that
2020-10-18T03:35:29Z ski: you're changing `b' as you go
2020-10-18T03:35:38Z ski: you could use a named `let', fwiw
2020-10-18T03:36:04Z ski: (well, changing `n' too, of course)
2020-10-18T03:36:47Z koorosh: i have some issues on understanding diffrent kinds of lets do you guys know any source that can help me maybe a blog post or something like that
2020-10-18T03:38:46Z ski: <https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.2.4> mentions named `let', with an example
2020-10-18T03:39:09Z koorosh: tnx for the help everyone :)
2020-10-18T03:39:25Z ski: did you figure out how to fix the bug ?
2020-10-18T03:41:00Z koorosh: ski: i kinda have an idea but i'm new to scheme if it was c or something like that then i just decrement my loop by 1 but thie recursive stuff is really messing with me
2020-10-18T03:41:08Z koorosh: i enjoy it thou :)
2020-10-18T03:41:42Z ski: it means you're learning something new, not merely just putting new clothes on something old
2020-10-18T03:42:37Z ski: (btw, you are decrementing your loop counter by one)
2020-10-18T03:42:50Z koorosh: yeah
2020-10-18T03:43:02Z ski: (`n' is the loop counter. you continue the loop by the (tail-)recursive call)
2020-10-18T03:43:39Z koorosh: right tnx again for the help and sry for bad english
2020-10-18T03:43:45Z ski: np
2020-10-18T03:46:52Z ski: hm, i was wondering whether it could be nice to express this, using `do' .. however, it'd either duplicate code, or else would be uncomfortable, bundling up two separate things in a single datum
2020-10-18T03:47:41Z Zipheir: "What does do do? Do be do." --foof
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2020-10-18T04:00:04Z mdhughes: Almost anything you can write in a do loop is clearer to express with named let, for-each, or map.
2020-10-18T04:01:42Z siraben: Zipheir: "Do be do be do" https://arxiv.org/abs/1611.09259
2020-10-18T04:03:10Z ski: rudybot: eval (do-values (((b n product) (values 2 7 1) (if (even? n) (values (* b b) (/ n 2) product) (values b (- n 1) (* b product))))) ((zero? n) product))
2020-10-18T04:03:10Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 128
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2020-10-18T04:53:03Z Zipheir: siraben: I haven't gotten around to reading the paper yet, but I love the title.
2020-10-18T04:54:04Z siraben: Zipheir:  I haven't yet either. Some of the code samples seem interesting though, as if imperative programming were brought back under a different light again.
2020-10-18T04:56:07Z Zipheir: Hah, as the paper notes, the title is a Sinatra quote.
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2020-10-18T04:59:19Z Zipheir: siraben: Their model of algebraic effects seems pretty elegant, on a quick skim.  It's nice that there's no monadic programming needed to analyze the value produced by an effect.  It's just a straightforward case analysis.
2020-10-18T05:00:36Z siraben: Zipheir:  Yes. I wonder if this would confuse new programmers even more, because it essentially looks impure.
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2020-10-18T06:43:21Z wasamasa: no worries, whenever someone uses the words blunted or tokin' it's a low-effort troll from #freenode, not gavino
2020-10-18T06:43:49Z wasamasa: they've been k-lined a bunch of times, so far it didn't help
2020-10-18T06:44:41Z wasamasa: another mannerism of theirs is plenken
2020-10-18T06:44:45Z libfud: I've been using IRC for over a decade at this point
2020-10-18T06:44:51Z libfud: and I still don't know a lot of the terminology
2020-10-18T06:44:54Z libfud: what is k-lining?
2020-10-18T06:44:58Z wasamasa: network-wide ban
2020-10-18T06:45:07Z libfud: ok
2020-10-18T06:45:36Z wasamasa: it's a weird term to use since there are things like i-lines which are not ban-related at all
2020-10-18T06:46:05Z wasamasa: I guess the thing they have in common is how the ircd treats a block of hosts
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2020-10-18T06:49:15Z libfud: what are the shortcomings of scheme?
2020-10-18T06:49:15Z koorosh: ski: so i think i corrected my fast-exp-iter
2020-10-18T06:49:15Z koorosh: (define fast-exp-iter
2020-10-18T06:49:15Z koorosh:   (lambda (b n)
2020-10-18T06:49:15Z koorosh:     (define iter (lambda (b n product)
2020-10-18T06:49:18Z koorosh: 	      (cond
2020-10-18T06:49:21Z koorosh: 	       [(zero? n) 1]
2020-10-18T06:49:25Z koorosh: 	       [(= n 1) (* product b)]
2020-10-18T06:49:26Z cer0 joined #scheme
2020-10-18T06:49:28Z koorosh: 	       [(even? n) (iter (* b b) (/ n 2) product)]
2020-10-18T06:49:29Z wasamasa: use a pastebin
2020-10-18T06:49:31Z koorosh: 	       [else (iter b (- n 1) (* product b))])))
2020-10-18T06:49:35Z koorosh:     (iter b n 1)))
2020-10-18T06:49:38Z koorosh: is this correct?
2020-10-18T06:49:45Z koorosh: ok sry
2020-10-18T06:49:53Z libfud: what wasamasa said, https://0paste.com
2020-10-18T06:50:04Z wasamasa: bonus if it allows annotating a paste
2020-10-18T06:50:24Z wasamasa: that way you can easily post a correction below
2020-10-18T06:50:30Z ski: koorosh : yes
2020-10-18T06:50:34Z libfud: isn't that what comments are for?
2020-10-18T06:50:39Z libfud: oh
2020-10-18T06:50:41Z wasamasa: well, code comments :P
2020-10-18T06:50:53Z libfud: that's what I meant by comments
2020-10-18T06:51:04Z ski: (but, as i said, i'd still prefer always using the accumulator)
2020-10-18T06:51:20Z koorosh: ski: btw how did you put your finger on the problem so quickly
2020-10-18T06:51:24Z koorosh: ok
2020-10-18T06:51:33Z ski: i've seen this algorithm before
2020-10-18T06:51:47Z koorosh: cool tnx again
2020-10-18T06:52:04Z ski: (do you see what i mean by "always using the accumulator" ?)
2020-10-18T06:52:58Z koorosh: yeah it's like saving a state like the famous i variable in loop or the state in the non iterative version
2020-10-18T06:53:04Z libfud: isn't this one of the algos described in brief in SICP?
2020-10-18T06:53:19Z koorosh: yeah i'm working throu sicp
2020-10-18T06:53:39Z koorosh: it was  one of the exercies
2020-10-18T06:53:57Z libfud: using the property of exponents where b^n = b^2*(n/2) where n is even and b^n = b^(2*n/2+1) for odd n
2020-10-18T06:54:00Z libfud: or something like that
2020-10-18T06:54:06Z ski: (i suppose me noticing pretty quickly that you in fact weren't doing that, led me to suspect that there could be something wrong with the code. then i saw what looked like an obvious mistake to me, and then i just had to figure out an actual (in this case minimal) example where that mistake made a difference in the overall result ..)
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2020-10-18T06:54:50Z koorosh: ski: cool
2020-10-18T06:54:53Z ski: koorosh : do you see where, in the above code, you're not "using the accumulator" ?
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2020-10-18T06:56:41Z ski: (in the original code you showed, there was two such places)
2020-10-18T06:57:11Z koorosh: ski: you mean the naming or I should find a way to use the product value so that i don't have multiply product and b in my (= n 1) case
2020-10-18T06:57:19Z koorosh: ski:  sry i don't get it
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2020-10-18T06:58:12Z ski: what is "the accumulator", in this case ?
2020-10-18T06:58:28Z ski: (and no, i'm not talking about naming)
2020-10-18T06:58:32Z koorosh: it's n
2020-10-18T06:58:47Z ski: not really
2020-10-18T06:58:58Z koorosh: is it product?
2020-10-18T06:59:01Z ski: yes
2020-10-18T06:59:12Z ski: it's where we accumulate the "result, so far"
2020-10-18T06:59:29Z koorosh: ok
2020-10-18T06:59:50Z koorosh: so whats the bes way to write this?
2020-10-18T07:00:17Z koorosh: *best
2020-10-18T07:00:36Z ski: in the iteration, you're both updating `n' (which controls the termination), and `product'. you also sometimes update `b'
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2020-10-18T07:02:23Z koorosh: so i should find a way to not change b in the even case and only update the product?
2020-10-18T07:02:34Z ski: when expressing a computation in "accumulating-style", usually one either gives the final value of the accumulator as the result, or may do some ending post-processing on the final value of the accumulator
2020-10-18T07:03:06Z ski: no, i'm not suggesting that. that would change the algorithm (to a less efficient one)
2020-10-18T07:03:48Z ski: in your code, when is the iteration terminating ?
2020-10-18T07:04:28Z koorosh: in (= n 1)
2020-10-18T07:04:40Z ski: only ?
2020-10-18T07:04:47Z koorosh: and zero?
2020-10-18T07:05:05Z ski: that's the two base cases of the recursion, yes
2020-10-18T07:05:11Z koorosh: right
2020-10-18T07:06:01Z ski: however, notice that only the `(= n 1)' case will actually be used, unless the initial value of `n' is zero
2020-10-18T07:06:15Z koorosh: ok
2020-10-18T07:06:36Z ski: do you see why this is the case ?
2020-10-18T07:07:43Z koorosh: yes it's cause i'm only dividing by two and decrementing one witch can't resault in a zero
2020-10-18T07:08:19Z ski: yes. for positive integers, you'll reach one before zero. and since you catch the one case, you'll then not reach zero
2020-10-18T07:08:37Z koorosh: ok
2020-10-18T07:08:59Z ski: this means that, if `n' is positive, you're testing whether it's non-zero, in each iteration step, uselessly
2020-10-18T07:09:31Z ski: only if `n' was initially zero, will that termination case be used
2020-10-18T07:09:36Z koorosh: oh
2020-10-18T07:10:00Z ski: so .. it would be possible to lift out that check, outside of the iteration, to only do it once, at the beginning, rather than rechecking it all the time, to no avail
2020-10-18T07:10:31Z koorosh: tnx for explaining and you patience :)
2020-10-18T07:10:57Z ski: do you see what i mean, how the code would change, to achieve this ?
2020-10-18T07:11:24Z koorosh: i add the zero case in the fast-exp-iter body not in the iter
2020-10-18T07:12:05Z ski: yes. e.g. wrapping the initial call to `iter' in an `if' (or `cond', if you prefer), which checks this, and only calls `iter' in the non-zero case
2020-10-18T07:13:03Z koorosh: tnx again i'm really learning new things here
2020-10-18T07:13:16Z ski: .. anyway, i wanted to point out the possibility of doing this, since it's good to be aware of such considerations -- but i actually had another change of the code in mind
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2020-10-18T07:13:57Z koorosh: what is it?
2020-10-18T07:15:00Z ski: (my main goal here is more to get you to see potential issues, and ways to deal with them, and to see multiple possible alternatives, so you can make more of an informed decision, rather than just settling for a single, hopefully correct, expression, without being aware of variations, possibilities)
2020-10-18T07:16:01Z ski: i'd say a rule of thumb, for using an accumulator, is that the accumulator is actually used, in each branch
2020-10-18T07:16:55Z koorosh: the only branch that i'm not using it in is the even case should i change that?
2020-10-18T07:16:56Z ski: (there can be exceptions to this. one might discover that the work one's done with computing the accumulator, so far, was unnecessary. or one could have multiple alternative accumulators, and sometimes choosing just one over another)
2020-10-18T07:18:11Z koorosh: ski: sry i don't get what you mean by mutliple accumulators
2020-10-18T07:18:11Z ski: in your original code, you were not using `product' in the odd case -- that clued me in to that that code was most likely buggy
2020-10-18T07:18:30Z koorosh: oh
2020-10-18T07:18:32Z ski: well, ignore that now, i suppose. it's not relevant to the present problem
2020-10-18T07:18:39Z koorosh: ok
2020-10-18T07:19:06Z ski: in your present version (as well as in the previous one), you are using `product' in the even case
2020-10-18T07:19:27Z ski: (namely, you pass it on, unchanged. but that counts as using, as opposed to discarding)
2020-10-18T07:19:55Z koorosh: ok
2020-10-18T07:21:35Z ski: btw, could you express the relation between the function computed by `fast-exp-iter' and the function expressed by `iter', in a "nice" way ?
2020-10-18T07:22:27Z ski: e.g., if i were to call `(iter 2 3 5)', what result would that give, and how would that result relate to some use of `fast-exp-iter' ?
2020-10-18T07:22:48Z koorosh: fast-exp-iter provides an abstraction over iter since iter has one more argument to use
2020-10-18T07:23:24Z koorosh: i think if i pass 5 instead of 1 i get resualt multiply by 5
2020-10-18T07:23:25Z ski: atm i'm not asking about the implementation of `fast-exp-iter' and `iter', but rather about the relation between the observable behaviour of both
2020-10-18T07:24:05Z ski: so, you're saying `(iter 2 3 5)' would be `(* 8 5)' ?
2020-10-18T07:24:24Z koorosh: probably i didn't eval it to check
2020-10-18T07:24:32Z koorosh: sry no
2020-10-18T07:25:32Z ski: no, to what ?
2020-10-18T07:25:46Z koorosh: it's not gonna be (* 8 5)
2020-10-18T07:26:04Z ski: but, instead ?
2020-10-18T07:26:27Z koorosh: because in the even cause it's gonna get to the power of 2
2020-10-18T07:27:10Z koorosh: in case of (iter 2 3 5) it's gonna be 40
2020-10-18T07:27:26Z ski: rudybot: eval (* 8 5)
2020-10-18T07:27:26Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: 40
2020-10-18T07:27:30Z ski: so ?
2020-10-18T07:27:44Z koorosh: i was right
2020-10-18T07:28:35Z ski: seems that you're saying `(iter 2 3 5)' is `40', and rudybot says `(* 8 5)' is also `40'
2020-10-18T07:29:01Z koorosh: yeah
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2020-10-18T07:29:07Z ski: so (by transitivity and symmetry of equality), it follows that `(iter 2 3 5)' is indeed `(* 8 5)'
2020-10-18T07:29:22Z koorosh: right
2020-10-18T07:29:29Z ski: or .. we could say, `(* (fast-exp-iter 2 3) 5)'
2020-10-18T07:29:36Z koorosh: yeah
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2020-10-18T07:30:28Z ski: this could lead to the hypothesis that `(iter b n product)' will always be `(* (fast-exp-iter b n) product)'
2020-10-18T07:30:49Z ski: (at least if `n' is a non-negative integer)
2020-10-18T07:31:29Z koorosh: yeah
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2020-10-18T07:32:12Z ski: and, i'd claim, that this can sometimes be a good way to think about, to specify, an accumulating operation
2020-10-18T07:32:27Z koorosh: right
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2020-10-18T07:32:51Z koorosh: ski: can you point me to some other algorithms to write in accomulator passing style or tail recursive style
2020-10-18T07:33:01Z ski: to relate the accumulating function, which takes an extra argument (the accumulator), to the "original" function (which usually (but not always), doesn't already have such an accumulating parameter)
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2020-10-18T07:35:19Z ski: consider `(iter b n product)', in the case when `n' is odd. let's say `(- n 1)' is called `n1', so that `n' is `(+ n1 1)'. we can reason :
2020-10-18T07:36:19Z ski:      (iter b n product)
2020-10-18T07:36:37Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b n) product)
2020-10-18T07:36:57Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b (+ n1 1)) product)
2020-10-18T07:37:28Z ski:   =  (* (* (fast-exp-iter b n1) (fast-exp-iter b 1)) product)
2020-10-18T07:38:02Z ski:   =  (* (* (fast-exp-iter b n1) b) product)
2020-10-18T07:38:09Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b n1) b product)
2020-10-18T07:38:19Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b n1) (* b product))
2020-10-18T07:38:31Z ski:   =  (iter b n1 (* b product))
2020-10-18T07:38:43Z ski:   =  (iter b (- n 1) (* b product))
2020-10-18T07:39:22Z koorosh: ok
2020-10-18T07:40:43Z ski: so, using the specification that `(iter b n product)' should be equal to `(* (fast-exp-iter b n) product)', together with expected facts about exponentiation (and multiplication), we have, in the case that `n' is odd, calculated how to compute `(iter b n product)' for the case when `n' is odd, in terms of a call to `iter' for the predecessor of `n'
2020-10-18T07:42:31Z ski: similarly, when `n' is even, let's call `(/ n 2)', `n2', so that `n' is `(* 2 n)', and in this case, we can reason :
2020-10-18T07:42:35Z ski:      (iter b n product)
2020-10-18T07:42:44Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b n) product)
2020-10-18T07:43:05Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b (* 2 n2)) product)
2020-10-18T07:43:45Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter (fast-exp-iter b 2) n2) product)
2020-10-18T07:44:04Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter (* b b) n2) product)
2020-10-18T07:44:14Z ski:   =  (iter (* b b) n2 product)
2020-10-18T07:44:20Z ski:   =  (iter (* b b) (/ n 2) product)
2020-10-18T07:44:48Z ski: if we apply the same idea to the case when `n' is one, we get
2020-10-18T07:44:55Z ski:      (iter b n product)
2020-10-18T07:45:07Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b n) product)
2020-10-18T07:45:11Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b 1) product)
2020-10-18T07:45:24Z ski:   =  (* b product)
2020-10-18T07:45:49Z ski: which is what you had in that case (apart from having the other ordering of the factors .. but multiplication is commutative)
2020-10-18T07:46:00Z ski: however, in the zero case for `n', we get
2020-10-18T07:46:04Z ski:      (iter b n product)
2020-10-18T07:46:08Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b n) product)
2020-10-18T07:46:11Z ski:   =  (* (fast-exp-iter b 0) product)
2020-10-18T07:46:16Z ski:   =  (* 1 product)
2020-10-18T07:46:20Z ski:   =  product
2020-10-18T07:46:31Z ski: which is not what you had in your code
2020-10-18T07:47:10Z ski: and, in fact, if you try `(iter 2 0 5)', you'll notice that it does not give the same result as `(* (fast-exp-iter 2 0) 5)'
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2020-10-18T07:47:50Z koorosh: yeah it gives 1
2020-10-18T07:47:51Z ski: koorosh : am i making any sense, by these derivations ?
2020-10-18T07:48:54Z koorosh: yes but this is alot to take in i'm copying it so can look at it precisely
2020-10-18T07:50:13Z ski: so, this method of deriving the implementation the accumulating "helper"/"worker" procedure (`iter'), from expected facts about the main "wrapper" one that one's trying to express (`fast-exp-iter' in your case) would suggest specifying the result of the zero case differently that what you had
2020-10-18T07:50:36Z ski: also, note that, in all these four cases now, the accumulator is actually used
2020-10-18T07:51:09Z ski: also, note that this suggested change to `iter' only makes a difference, if the initial value of `product' is not `1' (in my example it was `5')
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2020-10-18T07:51:44Z ski: so, if `iter' is only called by `fast-exp-iter', with `product' set to `1', you will not notice any difference in how `fast-exp-iter' behaves
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2020-10-18T07:54:05Z koorosh: ski: sry my client crashed can you copy the things you said afte
2020-10-18T07:54:49Z ski: (i already copied the tail end of what i said, in PM to you. did you want a copy of more of it ?)
2020-10-18T07:55:02Z koorosh: yeah sure
2020-10-18T07:55:05Z koorosh: ty
2020-10-18T07:55:41Z koorosh: btw i'm new to irc and i'm using erc how can i send pm
2020-10-18T07:55:58Z ski: but my point is that, one could argue, from the point of view of `iter' itself, this modification of `iter' makes it make a bit more sense, since then we get the nice-looking equality between `(iter b n product)' and `(* (fast-exp-iter b n) product)'
2020-10-18T07:56:18Z ski: i haven't used ERC, but you can try either
2020-10-18T07:56:24Z ski: /query ski
2020-10-18T07:56:25Z ski: or
2020-10-18T07:56:36Z ski: /msg ski hello, blah blah ..
2020-10-18T07:56:42Z koorosh: oh tnx
2020-10-18T07:57:01Z koorosh: yeah i get what you say tnx for the explanation
2020-10-18T07:57:48Z ski: now, after we've made this change to the zero case (which doesn't change how `fast-exp-iter' behaves), i'll claim that the one case is redundant
2020-10-18T07:58:29Z ski: that is, if you now skip the `(= n 1)' case. then if `n' is one, this will fall into the odd case. then subtracting one, we'll reach the zero case
2020-10-18T07:58:49Z koorosh: right
2020-10-18T07:59:01Z ski: and (please check this), i claim that the result of combining the odd case with the zero case will be the same as the result you have for the one case
2020-10-18T07:59:55Z ski: i find it's often helpful to "reduce termination/base cases to the absolute simplest", in this way
2020-10-18T07:59:55Z koorosh: sry i got to go i'll work on this and msg you agin later big tnx for the help i don't have anyone around me who know to scheme to get help from this means so much tnx again
2020-10-18T08:00:34Z koorosh: tnx bye
2020-10-18T08:00:36Z ski: i'm not saying you should do it this way, mind. i'm saying it's good to be aware of possibilities
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2020-10-18T21:30:24Z jcowan: mdhughes: A major exception where `do` is useful is processing vectors, especially several at a time.  You can do that with named-let, but I think do is actually more readable.
2020-10-18T21:31:19Z Riastradh: foooooof-looooooop
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2020-10-18T21:48:49Z mrkotfw: I use Chez, and I have a bunch of these checks scattered all over my program: (unless (state? current-state) (assertion-violation 'my-func "Not a state record" current-state))
2020-10-18T21:49:07Z mrkotfw: I also have other checks as well, checking if values passed in are integers, etc.
2020-10-18T21:49:47Z mrkotfw: What is a good way to avoid having to repeat myself many times over? The problem is that if I write a procedure, I still need to pass in the "who" symbol
2020-10-18T21:50:09Z mrkotfw: That is, something like (assert/check-state 'my-func" current-state)
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2020-10-18T21:58:22Z autumn[m]: I wonder if a macro could do that? I don't know [yet] how to write macros in Scheme though.
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2020-10-18T22:27:25Z wasamasa: why not a regular function?
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2020-10-18T22:38:41Z mrkotfw: wasamasa: It's not a huge issue, but it's what I mentioned, that I still have to pass in the 'my-func
2020-10-18T22:38:46Z mrkotfw: I guess I can do that as a first pass
2020-10-18T22:40:50Z Riastradh: (guarantee-foo foo 'frobnosticate)
2020-10-18T22:40:53Z Riastradh: is what MIT Scheme does.
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2020-10-18T23:07:04Z mrkotfw: Hm... I'll look it up
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2020-10-18T23:10:18Z mrkotfw: I don't see any references to that in the manual
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2020-10-19T00:49:00Z mdhughes: There's no equivalent of Objective-C's __PRETTY_FUNCTION__ in Scheme, you just have to copy the name down.
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2020-10-19T00:50:20Z mdhughes: Knowing what function/lambda you're in isn't trivial, but you could probably write an editor script to figure it out, trace back up to the define.
2020-10-19T00:53:38Z Zipheir: Write short (< 25 line) functions?
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2020-10-19T00:59:20Z Zipheir: Eh, I'm missing context on who is trying to do what.
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2020-10-19T01:08:14Z mdhughes: mrkotfw wants an assert that doesn't need you to repeat the function name, a reasonable goal that Scheme is utterly unequipped to solve.
2020-10-19T01:11:01Z Zipheir: Define a macro that expands to (define (foo ...) (parameterize ((current-procedure-name 'foo)) <body>)) ?  That should be syntax-rulesable.
2020-10-19T01:11:58Z Zipheir: Then (assume/proc-name MSG) => (assume MSG (current-procedure-name))
2020-10-19T01:13:14Z Zipheir: Seems like a lot of additional forms, though.
2020-10-19T01:13:19Z mdhughes: I was thinking about that, but at least in my case I write multiple forms of (define (foo) ...), (define foo (λ () ...)), (define foo (case-lambda ...)), and so on.
2020-10-19T01:15:11Z Zipheir: I imagine that resolving a single top-level name gets extremely hairy with arbitrary continuations, too.
2020-10-19T01:15:13Z mdhughes: My OOP system would need to be instrumented, too. And I (set! some-handler (λ () ...)) in a bunch of places
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2020-10-19T01:51:44Z mrkotfw: Thanks guys for the suggestions, but I might have to just deal with it
2020-10-19T01:52:36Z mrkotfw: What's interesting is that C also has a very nifty a __FUNCTION__ magic constant, which coupled with a macro is pretty nice
2020-10-19T01:54:57Z Zipheir: C, also, doesn't have arbitrary continuations.
2020-10-19T01:57:39Z Zipheir: I also wonder how that works in the presence of inlining and other optimization.
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2020-10-19T02:59:32Z mdhughes: It's set by the preprocessor, so if the code was inlined it'd have the original context.
2020-10-19T03:00:17Z mdhughes: Obviously when debugging you want to see where the source is, not where it gets used.
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2020-10-19T08:02:01Z amirouche: hello #scheme: :)
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2020-10-19T11:22:33Z jcowan: That's why syntax-case systems often carry around source code locations in syntax objects: the macro expander is in the best position to do so.
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2020-10-19T12:16:29Z mdhughes: I did notice an annotation system on Chez, but haven't looked into practical uses outside a compiler. (inside a compiler, it's too dark to annotate!)
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2020-10-19T12:23:26Z amirouche: yes, inside the compiler they copy the source location into s-exp and are processed by nanopass
2020-10-19T12:23:46Z amirouche: otherwise said, nanopass does not support chez annotations.
2020-10-19T12:24:17Z amirouche: the funny thing is some time the error is reported as line + col, and sometime as offset in the file.
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2020-10-19T12:34:37Z wasamasa: I wonder whether it would make sense to port nanopass to elisp
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2020-10-19T12:37:08Z wasamasa: given lack of syntax-case and whatnot
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2020-10-19T12:40:03Z ecraven: I've looked into implementing nanopass, an interesting endeavour
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2020-10-19T12:42:34Z amirouche:  there is no easy way to make the source location follow the transformations without a lot of boilerplate.
2020-10-19T12:43:22Z amirouche: that is why you end up with approximate source location in errors.
2020-10-19T12:43:39Z edgar-rft: porting https://www.nanopass.com/ to emacs?
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2020-10-19T12:44:08Z amirouche: edgar-rft: http://nanopass.org/
2020-10-19T12:44:48Z edgar-rft: ah, thanx :-)
2020-10-19T12:45:31Z wasamasa: ecraven: for mit-scheme?
2020-10-19T12:45:49Z ecraven: wasamasa: yes, mostly trying to understand how it actually worked
2020-10-19T12:46:08Z ecraven: I think I understood, but I didn't manage to fully port it (lack of time, and not using MIT/GNU Scheme much these days :-/)
2020-10-19T12:46:12Z wasamasa: noble intention
2020-10-19T12:47:41Z jcowan laughs at mdhughes grouchoism
2020-10-19T12:47:57Z jcowan: "Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho."
2020-10-19T12:51:17Z wasamasa: anyway, if I ever investigate into the topic, I'm more likely to write a tree walker and something ad-hoc loosely inspired by nanopass
2020-10-19T12:51:39Z wasamasa: writing code transformations as multiple passes makes life easier after all
2020-10-19T12:51:55Z ecraven: wasamasa: well, the
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2020-10-19T12:52:04Z ecraven: "magic" in nanopass does make life considerably easier
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2020-10-19T12:52:27Z wasamasa: the exception would be the reading (needs source locations, maybe even preserving comments/whitespace) and writing parts (may need control over comments and whitespace again)
2020-10-19T12:54:05Z ecraven: like the catamorphisms, for example
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2020-10-20T02:36:36Z koorosh: ski: i was thinking about what you said yesterday and handeling the zero case this is my code https://0paste.com/104223
2020-10-20T02:37:37Z koorosh: but i really don't know how to handle the zero case in iter so the (iter a b p) =(* p (fast-exp-iter a b))
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2020-10-20T03:17:19Z ski: koorosh : well, that paste looks fine, as long as `n' in `iter' is never zero .. which is the case here, since you're guarding the initial call to it
2020-10-20T03:17:35Z Zipheir: koorosh: The answer when n is zero is 1, right?
2020-10-20T03:18:41Z ski: however, if you want to define `(iter b n p)' also when `n' is zero, you could do that, by figuring out what `(* p (fast-exp-iter b n))' ought to be, in that case
2020-10-20T03:19:22Z ski: (and then `iter' could handle the zero case, and you'd not need the one case, and you'd not need the initial zero guard before the initial call to `iter', either)
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2020-10-20T04:29:30Z koorosh: ski: can you tell me some more algorithms to write in tail recusive style something that i really have to think about how to implement state changes in it
2020-10-20T04:30:53Z koorosh: Zipheir: for (fast-exp-iter 2 0) is 1 but i want to implement it in such a way that  (iter 2 0 5) = (* 5 (fast-exp-iter 2 0))
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2020-10-20T04:57:09Z Zipheir: koorosh: So you want iter and fast-exp-iter to be mutually recursive?  That seems odd.
2020-10-20T04:59:37Z Zipheir: koorosh: I'm guessing this is SICP exercise 1.16.  In case it isn't, you may want to take a good look at the hint they give: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-11.html#%_sec_1.2.1
2020-10-20T05:00:01Z Zipheir: The solution is really beautiful.
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2020-10-20T05:10:38Z koorosh: Zipheir: tnx for the help, yes it's an exercise from sicp
2020-10-20T05:14:03Z koorosh: is it ok to just rewrite my iter like this
2020-10-20T05:14:04Z koorosh: (define iter (lambda (b n product)
2020-10-20T05:14:04Z koorosh: 				    (cond
2020-10-20T05:14:04Z koorosh: 				     [(zero? n) product]
2020-10-20T05:14:07Z koorosh: 				     [(= n 1) (* b product)]
2020-10-20T05:14:10Z koorosh: 				     [(even? n) (iter (* b b) (/ n 2) product)]
2020-10-20T05:14:13Z koorosh: 				     [else (iter b (- n 1) (* product b))])))
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2020-10-20T05:17:33Z Zipheir: Looks good!
2020-10-20T05:18:10Z Zipheir: (* product (expt b n)) is constant at each step, which is the right approach.
2020-10-20T05:18:42Z Zipheir: s/at each step/during the entire computation/
2020-10-20T05:20:15Z siraben: Yay, exponentiation by squaring.
2020-10-20T05:20:33Z siraben: Generalizes to monoids as well, so you can derive a O(log n) algorithm for calculating the nth Fibonacci number
2020-10-20T05:20:45Z Zipheir: One of my favorite exercises from SICP, I have to say.
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2020-10-20T16:08:20Z amirouche: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-10-20T16:09:23Z wasamasa: why are there two different generator SRFIs
2020-10-20T16:09:54Z wasamasa: I've low-key looked into the nstore dependencies and found that while the sample implementation of the generator SRFI used there has CHICKEN-specific parts, another one is in their coop
2020-10-20T16:12:56Z Zipheir: Two? 121 has been withdrawn, since 158 superseded it.
2020-10-20T16:19:21Z wasamasa: yes indeed: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/srfi-121
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2020-10-20T16:28:29Z Zipheir: I've got an egg for SRFI 158 which I haven't gotten around to trying to publish.
2020-10-20T16:29:59Z Zipheir: In general, I'd like to make CHICKEN packages for a lot of recent SRFIs.  The egg-making process is just rather poorly documented.
2020-10-20T16:32:58Z wasamasa: you need to fry some more to get the hang of it :>
2020-10-20T16:33:39Z ski: Zipheir : not mutually recursive
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2020-10-20T16:38:08Z Zipheir: ski: Can you give me an example?
2020-10-20T16:47:10Z Zipheir: wasamasa: At first I thought that was a typo...
2020-10-20T16:50:09Z ski: Zipheir : the idea was that from the specification that `(iter b n p)' should be equal to `(* (fast-exp-iter b n) p)', together with expected behaviour of `fast-exp-iter', derive an implementation of `iter', and use the previous specification to implement `fast-exp-iter' in terms of said `iter'
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2020-10-20T16:50:51Z ski: (well, i dunno whether the idea of the SICP exercise was this (i didn't check) .. but this was the idea that i, more or less, was leading koorosh towards)
2020-10-20T16:53:46Z Zipheir: Interesting approach.
2020-10-20T16:56:53Z Zipheir: siraben pointed out to me that Bird & de Moor derive fast expt from the usual recursive def in Algebra Of Programming, but it's not the iterative version posed in SICP.
2020-10-20T16:57:26Z siraben: Zipheir: calculating the iterative (tail-recursive) version should be pretty straightforward as well
2020-10-20T17:01:03Z siraben: The generalized transformation is known as the "mutual recursion law"
2020-10-20T17:02:10Z Zipheir: I haven't read enough of AoP to be able to see how to derive a tail-recursive version from what they have.
2020-10-20T17:04:06Z Zipheir: Since it's a right fold, maybe trying to derive a left fold via a duality theorem would be a good approach.
2020-10-20T17:04:13Z Zipheir: But anyway.
2020-10-20T17:04:29Z siraben: Zipheir:  Start from slide 35 http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszjlh/pcalc/pcalc1.pdf , this isn't the mutual recursion law but shows how to turn recursive factorial into a tail-recursive factorial.
2020-10-20T17:05:30Z siraben: The proof obligation is synthesize `fac' a n = a * fac n` (if we calculate `fac'` without using `fac`, this allows us to redefine `fac` as `fac n = fac' 1 n`)
2020-10-20T17:06:27Z amirouche: wasamasa: the sample implementation does not work out-of-the-box?
2020-10-20T17:06:38Z Zipheir: siraben: Wow, that's beautiful and very straightforward.
2020-10-20T17:06:49Z wasamasa: amirouche: I look for prior work before duplicating it
2020-10-20T17:07:04Z siraben: Zipheir: Yes. I like these slides because they show how _easy_ it is!
2020-10-20T17:07:07Z wasamasa: amirouche: just expressing my surprise why jcowan would contribute a superseded SRFI
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2020-10-20T17:12:39Z amirouche: wasamasa: btw, if you are in a hurry... you can implement nstore on top of red-black tree or similar mapping that preserve ordering.
2020-10-20T17:12:59Z wasamasa: a red-black tree isn't something I'd implement in a hurry :D
2020-10-20T17:13:38Z amirouche: yeah, sure, there is a sample implementation for that too. Also you can use balanced trees too
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2020-10-20T17:23:38Z Zipheir: wasamasa: SRFI 146 exists, as does llrb-tree in CHICKEN.
2020-10-20T17:24:37Z wasamasa: hm, where?
2020-10-20T17:24:49Z wasamasa: llrb-tree I know, but srfi-146 doesn't show up in the egg pages
2020-10-20T17:26:47Z Zipheir: No, it's not ported to CHICKEN yet.  There's a big problem with SRFI 125.
2020-10-20T17:27:26Z Zipheir: chibi implements 125 as a quick layer on top of SRFI 69, but that doesn't work on CHICKEN, where 69 is full of arcane C optimizations.
2020-10-20T17:28:21Z wasamasa: and implementation details
2020-10-20T17:29:07Z Zipheir: Wait, no.  146 doesn't use 125.  I must be thinking of some other SRFI which can't be trivially ported to CHICKEN.
2020-10-20T17:29:45Z Zipheir: No, again.  It's the hashmap part of 146 that uses SRFI 125.
2020-10-20T17:30:13Z Zipheir: It's easy to get the RB tree part of SRFI 146 working on CHICKEN.
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2020-10-20T17:36:04Z Riastradh: does it generalize to burritos
2020-10-20T17:36:19Z Riastradh: ...oops, I was scrolled way up.
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2020-10-20T18:08:28Z siraben: Is there a finger-tree SRFI?
2020-10-20T18:12:55Z amirouche: siraben: not yet
2020-10-20T18:13:25Z amirouche: siraben: https://github.com/kevinwortman/Scheme-immutable-data-structures
2020-10-20T18:13:49Z Zipheir: I don't think there are generally SRFIs for data structures, although it's not a hard-and-fast rule.
2020-10-20T18:14:23Z Zipheir: "Sets" is a SRFI, but "AVL trees" is not, although sets may well use AVL trees.
2020-10-20T18:14:42Z Zipheir: But then there are hash tables and hashmaps, which are really dictionaries, I suppose.
2020-10-20T18:14:55Z Zipheir: Sorry, which are *used as* dictionaries.
2020-10-20T18:17:40Z Zipheir: amirouche: It seems slightly silly to have specifically immutable sets, since all of the ! procedures of SRFI 113/(scheme set) are linear update.
2020-10-20T18:18:10Z amirouche: Zipheir: immutable sets? in the above link?
2020-10-20T18:18:38Z Zipheir: "Immutable (a.k.a. persistent or pure-functional) deque, set, and map data structures in portable Scheme."
2020-10-20T18:18:54Z amirouche: The goal of Kevin Wortman is to have a _generic_ datastructure for _immutable_ datastructures that is fast.
2020-10-20T18:19:22Z amirouche: yeah you cam implement a subset of the SRFI set if you want.
2020-10-20T18:19:26Z Zipheir: Ditto maps (SRFI 146 is all linear update).
2020-10-20T18:19:44Z Zipheir: And Wortman/jcowan already did immutable deques (SRFI 134).
2020-10-20T18:20:05Z amirouche: that is an improvement over srfi 134
2020-10-20T18:20:20Z amirouche: that is what I understood.
2020-10-20T18:20:25Z Zipheir: I guess if you *really* want to be sure the sets/mappings you're using can't be mutated...
2020-10-20T18:20:41Z amirouche: but yeah finger trees seems only good for deques.
2020-10-20T18:20:54Z jcowan: Immutable sets would be a thin layer over 146
2020-10-20T18:21:01Z amirouche: the armotized complexity, does not inspire confidence as a general datastructure.
2020-10-20T18:21:40Z jcowan: I actually wrote a SRFI for that and wrote an implementation, but then I lost the implementation before committing it, arrgh.
2020-10-20T18:22:42Z amirouche: It happens! Today I was preparing myself to do something that I already did 6 month ago but did not remember about
2020-10-20T18:24:02Z Zipheir: jcowan: Ah, ok.
2020-10-20T18:24:41Z Zipheir: amirouche: What is a "general data structure"?
2020-10-20T18:25:29Z amirouche: general or generic: that can implement many other datastructure, that is an informal vocabulary.
2020-10-20T18:26:14Z Zipheir: I guess this is what WP means when it reads "Finger trees can be used to build other trees."
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2020-10-20T18:50:57Z Zipheir: So it seems that Kawa has single-flonums but no way to detect them, i.e. (single-flonum? 0.1) => #t or something.
2020-10-20T18:51:30Z Zipheir: Racket also seems to provide them, but without a conversion to normal (double) flonums.
2020-10-20T18:51:33Z Zipheir: Grr.
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2020-10-20T19:01:00Z Riastradh: Zipheir: How about (= x (* x (+ 1 (expt 2 -52))))?
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2020-10-20T19:02:24Z Riastradh: Zipheir: For conversion, what about adding 0?
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2020-10-20T19:06:09Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Doesn't Kawa have some instance-of? predicate or something?
2020-10-20T19:09:30Z Zipheir: Possibly... I'll have to keep looking.
2020-10-20T19:10:32Z Zipheir: The issue is how to deal with the possibility of single-float NaNs in the SRFI 208 portable implementation.
2020-10-20T19:11:28Z Zipheir: The spec requires they be converted.  I wonder if (+ 0 SINGLE-FLONUM) would work portably for that.
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2020-10-20T20:13:21Z jcowan: Zipheir: Racket has real->single-flonum
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2020-10-20T20:17:09Z Zipheir: jcowan: I found real->double-flonum, which is nice.
2020-10-20T20:17:40Z jcowan: I think that's the same in Racket as real->flonum
2020-10-20T20:18:42Z Zipheir: That makes sense.
2020-10-20T20:20:37Z jcowan: conversion in Kawa is ->[type], so (->float 32.0) gives you 32.0f0
2020-10-20T20:21:40Z Zipheir: But we'd want (->double some-arbitrary-inexact-number), I guess.
2020-10-20T20:22:16Z Zipheir: OK, it looks like there's enough to cond-expand a conversion procedure, then.
2020-10-20T20:22:57Z Zipheir: Assuming Racket and Kawa are and continue to be the only Schemes with single-flonums.
2020-10-20T20:24:00Z Zipheir: I'm just wondering if there's some more-or-less reliable way (like adding zero) to convert a single flonum for other, possibly future, Schemes.
2020-10-20T20:33:53Z jcowan: That should work for non-NaNs, but I'm not so sure about NaNs.  I am also concerned about sign extension.
2020-10-20T20:34:11Z jcowan: I think we should say that NaNs of different range and precision are never equal.
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2020-10-20T21:01:09Z Zipheir: jcowan: ACK.
2020-10-20T21:01:40Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Do you have any thoughts on SRFI 208, oh master of numerics? https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-208/srfi-208.html
2020-10-20T21:12:05Z Riastradh: nan-negative? should be a general sign-negative? procedure which works on any real number
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2020-10-20T21:13:25Z Riastradh: The text should be clearer about whether it is limited to binary64 or not.
2020-10-20T21:13:36Z Riastradh: There should be a make-nan procedure to construct them given a sign bit, a quiet bit, and a payload.
2020-10-20T21:15:06Z Zipheir: That did exist, but it proved to be impossible to implement portably.  bytevector-ieee-double-ref's portable implementation just returns whatever the Scheme calls +nan.0 or -nan.0
2020-10-20T21:17:17Z Zipheir: Reviewers on the 208 ml have also suggested putting make-nan back in.  "Where do these NaNs come from?"
2020-10-20T21:17:50Z Riastradh: God created the NaNs; all else is the work of man.
2020-10-20T21:18:01Z Zipheir: Heh.
2020-10-20T21:19:32Z Riastradh: (Citation: the diagram starting at around 2:15 in <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TFDG-y-EHs>, which you should watch all of.)
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2020-10-20T21:47:19Z jcowan: If it comes to that, it is unclear if *any* of the SRFI is portable.  All you are guaranteed is that *some* NaN is written into the bytevector, not that it is in some sense the *correct* NaN.
2020-10-20T21:47:35Z jcowan: I'm beginning to think it ought to be scrubbed altogether.
2020-10-20T21:48:25Z aeth: nan=? could that ever be portable?
2020-10-20T21:48:39Z aeth: that requires exposing some low-level stuff, you'd have to implement the implementation around it
2020-10-20T21:49:23Z Zipheir: That's a good point.  I'm not totally sure I checked whether the portable bytevector-ieee-double-set! (which is how we get the bits of a NaN) actually gives us the bits of the value it's called on.
2020-10-20T21:50:02Z Zipheir: (Or if it's just the value of +nan.0, or whatever.)
2020-10-20T21:53:07Z aeth: Zipheir: and then you might need a canonical +nan.0 and -nan.0
2020-10-20T21:53:26Z aeth: In fact, your +nan.0 and your -nan.0 are probably the same thing right now since SRFI-208 is the only thing that cares
2020-10-20T21:53:42Z aeth: e.g. in Racket, +nan.0 => +nan.0 but -nan.0 => +nan.0
2020-10-20T21:53:52Z aeth: there's a good chance that both produce the same NaN
2020-10-20T21:54:28Z aeth: at the moment I just essentially do (/ 0.0 0.0) for both reader NaNs
2020-10-20T21:54:35Z Zipheir: Ugh.  It's extremely hard to test when there's no portable way to synthesize a quiet NaN, say.
2020-10-20T21:55:39Z aeth: It's not necessarily a bad thing to make it more meaningful, but you are going to make implementations actually have to care about their NaNs
2020-10-20T21:56:11Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-10-20T21:56:28Z aeth: e.g. I guess I could do (/ -0.0 0.0)
2020-10-20T21:56:39Z aeth: If that would even work.
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2020-10-20T22:01:47Z jcowan: The more I think about it the more I think it makes no sense.
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2020-10-20T22:07:19Z aeth: Well, the sign part would make sense, if r7rs didn't have the +nan.0 / -nan.0 literals that are probably implemented as the same NaN (which both probably print as +nan.0) in most implementations.
2020-10-20T22:07:24Z Zipheir: Yeah, the portable bytevector-ieee-double-set! conversion treats all NaNs as the same thing.
2020-10-20T22:07:44Z Zipheir: So the current 208 sample implementation is bogus.
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2020-10-20T22:12:44Z Riastradh: +nan.0
2020-10-20T22:12:45Z Riastradh: ;Value: +nan.0
2020-10-20T22:12:45Z Riastradh: -nan.0
2020-10-20T22:12:45Z Riastradh: ;Value: -nan.0
2020-10-20T22:12:45Z Riastradh: (flo:make-nan #t #f 1234)
2020-10-20T22:12:47Z Riastradh: ;Value: -snan.1234
2020-10-20T22:12:57Z Riastradh: not rocket science
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2020-10-20T22:13:59Z aeth: Riastradh: MIT Scheme?
2020-10-20T22:14:05Z Riastradh: aeth: yes
2020-10-20T22:14:14Z jcowan: But it isn't portable.
2020-10-20T22:14:19Z Riastradh: `portable' meaning what?
2020-10-20T22:14:20Z aeth: right, I suspect that's the only one where SRFI 208 would work without modifying the implementation
2020-10-20T22:14:34Z jcowan: Racket too, perhaps
2020-10-20T22:14:41Z aeth: In most Schemes -nan.0 is +nan.0, Racket included
2020-10-20T22:14:49Z aeth: Unless I have an old Racket. Well, I do, but probably not that old
2020-10-20T22:14:52Z Zipheir: Assuming the implementation were MIT or Racket-only, which is discouraged by the SRFI editors.
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2020-10-20T22:14:58Z Riastradh: (Yes, on HP-PA and early-'90s MIPS you might have to reverse the sense of the quiet/signalling bit.  But that's pretty much the only point of disagreement.)
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2020-10-20T22:15:21Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Is `SRFI' a medium for publishing source code, or is it a medium for requesting that things be implemented appropriately across Scheme systems?
2020-10-20T22:15:46Z jcowan:  The latter, but the former is part of the requirement, just as for RFCs.
2020-10-20T22:16:35Z Zipheir: Riastradh: No idea.  It is, however, a medium in which I am currently responsible for providing a conforming sample implementation for SRFI 208, so I'm going by the process guidelines.
2020-10-20T22:16:43Z Riastradh: `7. It must contain a sample implementation.  This requirement may be met by: ... e. An outline of how it might be implemented.'
2020-10-20T22:17:16Z aeth: I might be able to fix Airship Scheme's NaN to match MIT, but at the moment I just match Chibi/Racket.
2020-10-20T22:17:18Z Zipheir: True.
2020-10-20T22:17:35Z Riastradh: Here is such an outline: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/microcode/flonum.c?id=81e85e79e8f3fb09feec192439a1350506e4d5e9#n726
2020-10-20T22:17:35Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/SSLcSJ6A1t
2020-10-20T22:17:40Z jcowan: But note the constraints on 7e.
2020-10-20T22:17:50Z aeth: I mean, if I rush out Airship Scheme before you finish SRFI 208 then you can get a SRFI that works on two Schemes: Airship Scheme and MIT Scheme
2020-10-20T22:18:15Z Riastradh: Sure, you could spell that C code I just quoted in terms of bytevector-ieee-double-ref/set! instead of C.
2020-10-20T22:19:35Z jcowan: It will still produce uncertain results because you may get different NaN bit patterns on different hardware, so there is no knowing what the bits actually mean.
2020-10-20T22:19:42Z Riastradh: (and add (define (sign-negative? x) (< (copysign 1. x) 0.)), perhaps -- there is a copysign procedure these days, right?)
2020-10-20T22:20:05Z jcowan: SRFI 144, yes
2020-10-20T22:20:30Z Riastradh: jcowan: Pretty much the only two choices -- aside from byte order -- are quiet=1 (~everything these days) vs quiet=0 (hppa and early-'90s mips).
2020-10-20T22:20:34Z aeth: jcowan: yes, imo drop the bit part, but the rest is salvageable if Schemes were modified so -nan.0 => -nan.0
2020-10-20T22:21:13Z aeth: (i.e. nan-payload won't really work well)
2020-10-20T22:21:30Z Riastradh: you're inventing barriers to make it hard for yourself.
2020-10-20T22:21:36Z aeth: And then, arguably, nan= shouldn't care about nan-payload, either
2020-10-20T22:22:27Z Riastradh: Just say what the semantics should be in a sane world, relative to IEEE 754.  Systems that don't want to go to the trouble of writing a few lines of code to handle it can just not claim support for the SRFI.
2020-10-20T22:22:42Z aeth: the main issues with SRFI-208 as it stands are: (1) nan-payload is probably impossible to make portable and (2) Schemes should implement their reader NaN so (nan-negative? -nan.0) => #t which I doubt
2020-10-20T22:22:59Z Riastradh: aeth: `impossible to make portable' in what contrived useless senes of `portable' are you talking about?
2020-10-20T22:23:02Z Riastradh: sense
2020-10-20T22:23:09Z Zipheir: It is a very small library which can probably be supported easily by most Schemes.
2020-10-20T22:23:56Z aeth: Zipheir: it's only easy if you disregard the imo intuitive requirement for (nan-negative? -nan.0) => #t
2020-10-20T22:24:19Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if only MIT Scheme passes right now
2020-10-20T22:24:45Z Zipheir: Oops, yeah, I forgot about that.
2020-10-20T22:24:45Z Riastradh: Do you have a machine on which (a) you have a functioning Scheme implementation you care about, and (b) either the C code I quoted or equivalent code using bytevector-ieee-double-ref/set! doesn't just work?
2020-10-20T22:25:04Z aeth: Zipheir: I would recommend adding that requirement to the SRFI, btw.
2020-10-20T22:25:38Z aeth: For +nan.0 and -nan.0 to behave as expected with their signs
2020-10-20T22:25:42Z Zipheir: aeth: That would contradict R7RS, unfortunately.
2020-10-20T22:25:46Z aeth: oh
2020-10-20T22:25:52Z aeth: Contradict or extend?
2020-10-20T22:26:13Z Riastradh: Contradict how?
2020-10-20T22:26:22Z Zipheir: § 6.2.5: "...  The use of signs in the written representation does not necessarily reflect the underlying sign of the NaN value, if any."
2020-10-20T22:26:28Z Zipheir: OK, "extend".
2020-10-20T22:26:29Z Riastradh: `does not necessarily'
2020-10-20T22:26:36Z jcowan: The C code will work, but there are no such guarantees about the b-i-d-[rs] procedures.
2020-10-20T22:27:52Z Riastradh: jcowan: Yes, I realize there are no such _guarantees_.  I'm asking a practical question about the real world, not a hypothetical question about what is a necessary implication in every possible system of the intersection of every formal guarantee involved.
2020-10-20T22:27:54Z Zipheir: If you support nan-negative?, +nan.0 and -nan.0 SHOULD denote different numbers.
2020-10-20T22:28:03Z aeth: Zipheir: Imo, any Scheme that implements SRFI 208 would do it so you can assume (nan-negative? -nan.0) => #t and (nan-negative? +nan.0) => #f
2020-10-20T22:28:41Z jcowan: btw, does FLONUM_BINARY_64 adjust for endianism?
2020-10-20T22:28:46Z aeth: Zipheir: It's a bit weird that there's no nan-positive? too...
2020-10-20T22:28:53Z Riastradh: Zipheir: I suggest you just take the IEEE 754-2019 model of NaNs wholesale.
2020-10-20T22:29:35Z aeth: Zipheir: you might even want a nan-sign-bit so you can use = to compare the result of two
2020-10-20T22:30:26Z Riastradh: aeth: In floating-point data, the complementary meaning of the negative sign bit is `not negative' -- not merely `positive'.
2020-10-20T22:30:51Z Zipheir: It all still depends on whether it makes sense to push on with 208 without a portable implementation.
2020-10-20T22:30:59Z aeth: Riastradh: is there an example of something that's neither?
2020-10-20T22:31:21Z Riastradh: (list (flo:negative? -nan.0) (flo:sign-negative? -nan.0))
2020-10-20T22:31:22Z Riastradh: ;Value: (#f #t)
2020-10-20T22:31:22Z Riastradh: (list (flo:negative? -0.) (flo:sign-negative? -0.))
2020-10-20T22:31:22Z Riastradh: ;Value: (#f #t)
2020-10-20T22:31:22Z Riastradh: (list (flo:negative? +0.) (flo:sign-negative? +0.))
2020-10-20T22:31:24Z Riastradh: ;Value: (#f #f)
2020-10-20T22:31:28Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Yes it does.
2020-10-20T22:31:50Z Riastradh: (list (flo:negative? +nan.0) (flo:sign-negative? +nan.0))
2020-10-20T22:31:50Z Riastradh: ;Value: (#f #f)
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2020-10-20T22:32:25Z Riastradh: aeth: Zero is neither negative nor positive per se, but it can have either sign bit.  That's the difference between `negative?' and `sign-negative?'.
2020-10-20T22:32:34Z Riastradh: Same with NaNs.
2020-10-20T22:32:48Z aeth: Riastradh: yeah, but is there a zero NaN? zero's not not a number
2020-10-20T22:33:06Z jcowan: You can use eqv? to distinguish between -0.0 and 0.0, but not between +nan.0 and -nan.0.
2020-10-20T22:33:32Z Riastradh: jcowan: FLONUM_BINARY_64 uses the native byte order, and if you find a machine that MIT Scheme runs on, on which the current definition is wrong, you can let me know.
2020-10-20T22:33:35Z gwatt: jcowan: is that a requirement or merely allowd?
2020-10-20T22:33:53Z jcowan: Merely allowed.
2020-10-20T22:33:54Z Riastradh: aeth: No, but I'm not sure what you're getting at?
2020-10-20T22:34:26Z aeth: Riastradh: the opposite of negative is non-negative because non-negative is zero or positive. But there is no zero in the NaN world because zero's not not a number?
2020-10-20T22:35:06Z Riastradh: aeth: Yes, that's right.  But I don't think having a NaN-specific procedure for querying the sign bit is particularly useful.
2020-10-20T22:35:07Z aeth: so it looks to me like non-negative & nan => positive
2020-10-20T22:35:17Z jcowan: The sign of a NaN is a distinction between two bit-level representation: it conveys no information.
2020-10-20T22:35:25Z Riastradh: There should be a uniform operation for querying the sign bit of _any_ floating-point value.
2020-10-20T22:35:32Z jcowan: For what purpose?
2020-10-20T22:36:05Z Riastradh: Because there's no value in having a numeric-sign-bit and nan-sign-bit procedures?
2020-10-20T22:36:49Z jcowan: You mean there is no value in having two of them, or there is no value in either of them?
2020-10-20T22:37:01Z Riastradh: two separate ones
2020-10-20T22:37:26Z Riastradh: Having a procedure to query the sign bit is convenient.  (Copysign is good too but sometimes it's clearer to write (if (sign-negative? x) ...).)
2020-10-20T22:37:54Z Riastradh: (Having (sign-bit x) is mostly fine too but that doesn't tell you which way the sign bit indicates, whereas sign-negative? makes it clear.)
2020-10-20T22:37:55Z jcowan: It's convenient to query the sign bit of a number, but not of a NaN.
2020-10-20T22:38:03Z Riastradh: ???
2020-10-20T22:38:13Z Riastradh: Why do you draw a distinction between the two?
2020-10-20T22:38:15Z jcowan: meaningful, I mean, rather than convenient
2020-10-20T22:38:21Z Riastradh: Every IEEE 754 floating-point datum has a sign bit.
2020-10-20T22:39:33Z jcowan: Again, what of that?  There is a meaningful difference between 0.0 and -0.0, and between 1.0 and -1.0, and so on.  But there is no meaningful difference between NaN-with-sign-set and NaN-with-sign-clear.  They mean the same thing.
2020-10-20T22:40:07Z Riastradh: `mean' in what sense?
2020-10-20T22:40:37Z Riastradh: (atan (copysign 0. -nan.0) -1.)
2020-10-20T22:40:37Z Riastradh: ;Value: -3.141592653589793
2020-10-20T22:40:37Z Riastradh: (atan (copysign 0. +nan.0) -1.)
2020-10-20T22:40:37Z Riastradh: ;Value: 3.141592653589793
2020-10-20T22:40:56Z Riastradh: That's a pretty big difference, a whole tau's worth!
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2020-10-20T22:41:44Z Riastradh: You seem to be trying to invent a generalization of IEEE 754 semantics that could hold in a hypothetical variant floating-point system that shares every property with IEEE 754 except some arbitrary ones you've taken out for reasons unclear to me.
2020-10-20T22:42:23Z Riastradh: Do you actually have another floating-point system you care about?  If so, talk about that!  If not, I suggest you just specify IEEE 754 semantics exactly and stop playing games with hypothetical armchair architecture astronomy.
2020-10-20T22:47:47Z Riastradh: Take this effort you've spent rationalizing some hypothetical generalization of IEEE 754 semantics, and put it into writing a reusable test suite so implementors can immediately get feedback with various operations.  Here's something you might start from:
2020-10-20T22:47:51Z Riastradh: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/tests/microcode/test-flonum-except.scm?id=81e85e79e8f3fb09feec192439a1350506e4d5e9
2020-10-20T22:47:52Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/FqLV3jkpq3
2020-10-20T22:47:54Z Riastradh: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/tests/runtime/test-flonum.scm?id=81e85e79e8f3fb09feec192439a1350506e4d5e9
2020-10-20T22:47:55Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/WhvKG6pJ9K
2020-10-20T22:48:49Z jcowan: I don't have access to IEEE 754, so I don't know if it prescribes that behavior (or any behavior) for copysign.  I do know that C and Posix do not.
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2020-10-20T22:49:34Z jcowan: copysign(x, y) where x is NaN will return a NaN whose sign is the sign of Y, but the converse is not defined.
2020-10-20T22:50:03Z Riastradh: https://sci-hub.se/https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8766229
2020-10-20T22:55:03Z Riastradh: In principle, a floating-point system consistent with the IEEE 754-2019 3.3 specification of sets of floating-point data could fail to distinguish `positive' and `negative' NaNs (although it must still distinguish quiet and signalling NaNs), but...
2020-10-20T22:56:22Z Riastradh: (a) the binary interchange format, which is what almost every machine will implement in practical terms, does distinguish NaNs by sign and payload in bit string representations, and
2020-10-20T22:57:48Z Riastradh: (b) the semantics is either spelled out (e.g., totalOrder, in Sec. 5.10) or obvious (e.g., copysign, abs, isSignMinus, &c.) where such a distinction exists, which is on essentially every real computer that implements IEEE 754 semantics.
2020-10-20T23:02:41Z jcowan: Okay, fair enough, 754 does prescribe this treatment.
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2020-10-20T23:04:13Z Riastradh: If you want to split a test suite into (a) what is formally guaranteed by IEEE 754 semantics and (b) what is reasonably expected on all real computers, that would be fine -- the latter is the more useful part, really, and can serve as a guide for implementors writing the bit-twiddling logic like what I quoted earlier.
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2020-10-21T07:00:50Z antaoiseach: Hello, has anybody here worked through "The Little Prover" by Friedman and Eastlund?
2020-10-21T07:01:16Z antaoiseach: I had a few questions on how to actually use the proof assistant for the book, j-bob
2020-10-21T07:01:17Z Zipheir: Yes.  Though it's been a bit.
2020-10-21T07:01:38Z antaoiseach: Haha ... nice! Don't worry, my questions are pretty basic
2020-10-21T07:02:11Z antaoiseach: My basic question is this - how do you actually use the proof assistant to work through the book? There is no such tutorial available anywhere!
2020-10-21T07:02:55Z antaoiseach: I mean, I have the assistant loaded up in chez, and it works fine - the basic operations et al, but the same code in the appendix and the examples worked through the book seem to have no relation with each other?
2020-10-21T07:02:56Z Zipheir: I recall it being easiest to use with Geiser in Emacs.
2020-10-21T07:03:24Z antaoiseach: Okay
2020-10-21T07:03:41Z Zipheir: One second, I'm looking at my copy of TLP.
2020-10-21T07:03:50Z antaoiseach: Thanks!
2020-10-21T07:04:49Z Zipheir: Right, it's definitely sort of a split-screen book.  You've got to refer back and forth between the chapters and the proofs.
2020-10-21T07:05:33Z antaoiseach: I mean, my question is probably confusing ... but say, chapter 1 - okay, I work through the sample code like `car (cons 'ham '(eggs))` - I can get the right results here, but 1). Something like `(car (cons a b))` does NOT work in j-bob, but the text assumes it's nil anyway, and 2). The code in the appendix for chapter 1 has something like (defun chapter1.example1 ... ), but this is not actually in the
2020-10-21T07:05:39Z antaoiseach: text
2020-10-21T07:05:42Z antaoiseach: So my basica question is - what am I really supposed to do?
2020-10-21T07:05:43Z antaoiseach: :(
2020-10-21T07:07:26Z Zipheir: The proofs are the J-Bob translation of what's worked through in the text, so there's a lot there that is the formalization of the informal proof steps.
2020-10-21T07:07:43Z antaoiseach: Aha
2020-10-21T07:07:48Z Zipheir: Basically, I added all the defuns to a prelude, then worked out the dethms step by step.
2020-10-21T07:08:34Z antaoiseach: Okay, that's helping me get it .... so the second part specifically - can you elaborate on "worked out the dethms step by step"
2020-10-21T07:09:48Z antaoiseach: (Just for background, if it helps, I'm comfortable with Scheme/Lisps, but totally new to proofs and theorem proving)
2020-10-21T07:10:01Z Zipheir: OK, take first-of-pair.
2020-10-21T07:10:07Z antaoiseach: okay
2020-10-21T07:11:06Z Zipheir: Ugh, it's hard to find the corresponding proof, since their just called "exampleN"
2020-10-21T07:11:21Z antaoiseach: yeah.... that definitely confused me :(
2020-10-21T07:12:45Z antaoiseach: And they use step, prove etc without explaining anything about it even in the appendices (AFAIK) - would have helped if they had a small j-bob tutorial in the book itself
2020-10-21T07:13:08Z antaoiseach: (I mean, upfront ... in chapter 1 itself would have helped)
2020-10-21T07:13:37Z Zipheir: OK, here it is.  The header is (... '(((dethm first-of-pair (a b) (equal (first-of (pair a b)) a)))
2020-10-21T07:13:57Z Zipheir: So you start with that and add one step at a time, starting with ((1 1) (pair a b))
2020-10-21T07:14:12Z Zipheir: Evaluating that will give you the resulting expression, or failure if you've screwed up.
2020-10-21T07:15:07Z Zipheir: Agreed, J-Bob needs more explanation.
2020-10-21T07:16:12Z Zipheir: With a little practice, it's not too hard to follow along, using the proof assistant interactively to check your work.  Provided you've got a sophisticated REPL or are willing to copy/paste a lot.
2020-10-21T07:16:28Z antaoiseach: Forgive me for sounding dumb, but I understand that that example is a theorem for the first of a pair being always equal to the first element of the pair, and that is then encoded as an axiom we can use for future proofs? Is that correct?
2020-10-21T07:17:06Z antaoiseach: Zipheir: Yeah, I might go the geiser way like you suggested .. .right now I'm using the chez repl, which is okay so far, but...
2020-10-21T07:17:21Z Zipheir: antaoiseach: That's correct.
2020-10-21T07:17:33Z antaoiseach: Okay, thanks... that helps! :-)
2020-10-21T07:17:35Z Zipheir: Some of the theorems seem really trivial.
2020-10-21T07:17:59Z antaoiseach: Just one bit more about that same example - what does ((1 1) (pair a b)) actually entail/imply in this context?
2020-10-21T07:18:44Z Zipheir: Jump forward to the last chapter, "Recess"
2020-10-21T07:18:57Z Zipheir: That's where they finally explain a bit on J-Bob.
2020-10-21T07:19:26Z antaoiseach: Okay, looking at that sectio now
2020-10-21T07:19:40Z antaoiseach: Ahhhh okay
2020-10-21T07:20:02Z antaoiseach: Man, maybe I don't get it, but the format seems weird to have it this far along the book ... maybe it's intentional?
2020-10-21T07:20:06Z Zipheir: The list of symbols/numbers is the "path" of the focus.
2020-10-21T07:20:22Z Zipheir: Agreed, it's weird.
2020-10-21T07:20:41Z antaoiseach: Hmmm ... okay, that's good at least. Thank you so very much for your patience and time, man! :-)
2020-10-21T07:20:46Z antaoiseach: Really appreciate it!
2020-10-21T07:21:06Z Zipheir: You're welcome. :)  Have you tried The Little Typer?
2020-10-21T07:21:25Z antaoiseach: Zipheir: hehe ... yeah, was just reading the reviews for it ... seems probably the next book to do after this?
2020-10-21T07:21:29Z Zipheir: The topic is similar, but it's a bit easier to follow.
2020-10-21T07:21:51Z Zipheir: I think so.  I definitely prefer it over TLP.
2020-10-21T07:21:54Z antaoiseach: Isn't that specifically for Dependent Types or does it also include theorem proving?
2020-10-21T07:22:15Z Zipheir: It's about how dependent types are theorems and programs are proofs, so ... both.
2020-10-21T07:22:17Z antaoiseach: Hmmm... interesting
2020-10-21T07:22:30Z Zipheir: The Pie language is both a theorem prover and a functional language.
2020-10-21T07:22:54Z antaoiseach: Okay, that's actually interesting because the reason I looked at TLP is because I'm learning Idris currently and got stuck at theorem proving... :D
2020-10-21T07:23:02Z Zipheir: Oh, perfect.
2020-10-21T07:23:08Z antaoiseach: Do you think that would be a better book for me then?
2020-10-21T07:23:18Z Zipheir: Yeah, I think Little Typer will be much closer to what you're working on.
2020-10-21T07:23:40Z antaoiseach: Hmmmmm.... I think I will do that instead ... maybe do TLP later
2020-10-21T07:23:57Z antaoiseach: (I should have probably given this background ahead of time!)
2020-10-21T07:24:00Z antaoiseach: hehe
2020-10-21T07:24:13Z Zipheir: No problem.  All the Little books are worthwhile.
2020-10-21T07:24:25Z antaoiseach: Okay, that settles it for me then. I will do the TLT first then! :-)
2020-10-21T07:24:31Z Zipheir: (Although I've been a little skittish of the Java one...)
2020-10-21T07:24:36Z Zipheir: Good luck!
2020-10-21T07:25:09Z antaoiseach: Zipheir: Thank you again, man. You have no idea how frustrated I'd got - almost sick of the name "j-bob" ... hahaha :D
2020-10-21T07:25:19Z antaoiseach: Have a great day/night ahead! :-)
2020-10-21T07:25:50Z antaoiseach: Cheers!
2020-10-21T07:25:55Z Zipheir: You too!  Feel free to ask more questions about TLT here.
2020-10-21T07:26:08Z antaoiseach: Will definitely do... till next time! :-)
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2020-10-21T07:26:25Z Zipheir: o/
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2020-10-21T09:18:35Z ManDay: Is there a non-quoted method to make an improper list?
2020-10-21T09:18:51Z ManDay: I.e. a non-quoted version of '(1 2 3 . 4)
2020-10-21T09:19:09Z ManDay: (other than   (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 4))), of course)
2020-10-21T09:20:49Z ski: rudybot: eval (list* 0 1 2)
2020-10-21T09:20:49Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 1 . 2)
2020-10-21T09:21:05Z ski: rudybot: eval (append (list 0 1) 2)
2020-10-21T09:21:06Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 1 . 2)
2020-10-21T09:22:01Z ManDay: i'm not ashamed to say I've never heard of list*, thanks :>
2020-10-21T09:22:43Z ManDay: (then again improper list are not the most usual thing)
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2020-10-21T10:05:11Z mdhughes: Only time I find them useful is in alists, and even then I have an alref function that handles both (key . value) and (key value)
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2020-10-21T10:10:02Z ManDay: I just like to use the "semantically correct" datatype for things. I.e., if it's of known length, I would like to use a improper list.
2020-10-21T10:10:39Z ManDay: I'm not a very practical person, some would argue ^^
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2020-10-21T10:28:12Z mdhughes: If it's a known length, vector's more useful.
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2020-10-21T10:31:30Z ManDay: why?
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2020-10-21T10:34:14Z mdhughes: O(1) access to any element.
2020-10-21T10:34:38Z mdhughes: A list is O(n): If you need the 15th element 100 times in a row, that adds up fast.
2020-10-21T10:36:25Z ManDay: is that spec'ed? I'd have thought the compiler figures this out to be performant
2020-10-21T10:36:57Z wasamasa: lol
2020-10-21T10:37:31Z wasamasa: I recommend reading at least r5rs
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2020-10-21T10:40:31Z ManDay: ?
2020-10-21T10:41:01Z ManDay: Are you suggesting that somewhere in r5rs they say "list access has to be >=O(n)!" ?
2020-10-21T10:41:17Z wasamasa: no, they say there how vectors are expected to work as data structure
2020-10-21T10:41:27Z ManDay: Ah ok.
2020-10-21T10:41:32Z ManDay: Thanks
2020-10-21T10:41:55Z wasamasa: sure, people came up with some tricks to efficiently represent lists in memory, but I wouldn't count on them :P
2020-10-21T10:42:30Z ManDay: i mean if I statically initialize a list (define l (list 1 2 3 4)) I'd expect (list-ref l ...) to work with O(1)
2020-10-21T10:42:44Z wasamasa: now go and find me a compiler doing that
2020-10-21T10:42:59Z ManDay: wow, okay. I just assumed that for granted
2020-10-21T10:43:10Z wasamasa: or better, write one :>
2020-10-21T10:43:28Z wasamasa: write one that speculatively optimizes a list into a vector and deoptimizes it if that isn't needed
2020-10-21T10:44:10Z ManDay: I wouldn't see any reason for a compiler to not put a static list into a C-like array in the first place
2020-10-21T10:44:16Z ManDay: nvm tho
2020-10-21T10:44:29Z ManDay: personally I'm not really concerned with performance, to be honest
2020-10-21T10:44:42Z wasamasa: that kind of stuff has been done for Self and made its way from there into Java and JS implementations
2020-10-21T10:44:50Z wasamasa: expecting it in scheme, good luck
2020-10-21T10:45:22Z wasamasa: but at least we have a few people in this community working on JS, so maybe it will happen some day for guile or so
2020-10-21T10:46:16Z wasamasa: and maybe then ManDay will stop cursing at guile's wretched error handling :P
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2020-10-21T10:46:44Z ManDay: :>
2020-10-21T11:04:15Z ski: generally, people often expect lists to be able to share tails
2020-10-21T11:04:58Z wasamasa: do they though
2020-10-21T11:04:59Z ManDay: non-pure heretics
2020-10-21T11:05:06Z ski: iow `(cons 0 list-of-a-million-elements)' is expected not to copy the list
2020-10-21T11:05:06Z wasamasa: how often is that abused?
2020-10-21T11:05:30Z siraben: Extensive sharing also occurs in pure call-by-need languages like Haskell.
2020-10-21T11:07:02Z ManDay: in this cases we can't have O(1) but still be better than O(n) by having them chunkwise in linear memory. and then vectors remain only a special case, wouldn't they
2020-10-21T11:07:08Z ski: (but i suppose having `O(log(n))' consing might perhaps not be too bad ..)
2020-10-21T11:07:35Z ski: why not `O(1)' ?
2020-10-21T11:08:25Z ManDay: because the elements of the so-composed (sharing tail, etc) list are not linear in memory?
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2020-10-21T11:09:16Z ManDay: i'm talking about the retreival of elements, not about consing!
2020-10-21T11:11:04Z ski: oh, ok
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2020-10-21T11:12:07Z ski . o O ( "The Myth of RAM, part I" by Emil Ernerfeldt in 2014-04-21 at <https://www.ilikebigbits.com/2014_04_21_myth_of_ram_1.html> )
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2020-10-21T11:25:01Z wasamasa: I like big bits and I cannot lie
2020-10-21T11:27:59Z wasamasa: > WARNING: Many languages do not support proper arrays
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2020-10-21T11:32:48Z ManDay: Because JAVA is the obvious first choice if performance matters
2020-10-21T11:33:07Z ManDay: (and then, Scripting Languages)
2020-10-21T11:34:03Z ManDay: but if we're talking about bounds due to general relativity and black holes, I think we have already said goodbye to any practical considerations, whatsoever
2020-10-21T11:34:21Z ManDay: so yes, "linear" memory access is O(sqrt(N)), whatever you say
2020-10-21T11:35:18Z ManDay: in any case, he just prefixed everything with a sqrt(N), so it does't really seem to matter to the question vector-or-list
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2020-10-21T11:47:54Z ManDay: I just noticed right now, ski, there is no (list* in guile)
2020-10-21T11:48:21Z ManDay: ah, but cons*
2020-10-21T11:48:39Z ManDay: that actually makes more sense :P
2020-10-21T11:50:26Z foof: it gets more interesting when N doesn't fit on one machine
2020-10-21T11:54:49Z lortabac: hello, I am looking for a fast Scheme implementation to use as a backend for a statically-typed functional language
2020-10-21T11:55:41Z lortabac: all the features I need are more or less: lambdas, vectors, green threads and FFI
2020-10-21T11:57:10Z lortabac: what would you suggest?
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2020-10-21T12:21:31Z lockywolf: chez
2020-10-21T12:22:01Z lockywolf: also, someone is making a film about scheme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylAG1MBDzb0
2020-10-21T12:24:09Z lortabac: :)
2020-10-21T12:25:58Z wasamasa: ManDay: srfi-1 says something about it being named cons*/list* with a 50/50 probability
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2020-10-21T12:45:00Z ManDay: lockywolf: it's very subtle. these references to lisp... i can hardly perceive them!
2020-10-21T12:45:28Z lockywolf: Scheme is not really a lisp
2020-10-21T12:45:38Z lockywolf: It's more of an Algol
2020-10-21T12:45:48Z wasamasa: lol
2020-10-21T12:47:00Z ManDay: wasamasa: i thought you were kidding about the 50/50 but it's actually true
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2020-10-21T12:47:53Z ManDay: which brings us to the age-old question: what came first, the spec or the implementation?
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2020-10-21T13:00:54Z mdhughes: I suppose list* makes more sense, since until the end it behaves like list.
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2020-10-21T13:20:11Z lockywolf: wasamasa, thanks, it's a cool blog
2020-10-21T13:20:22Z wasamasa: hm?
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2020-10-21T14:59:11Z Zipheir: ManDay: R7RS just says that random access time with a vector is "typically less" than with a list.
2020-10-21T15:00:45Z Zipheir: This has been debated ad nauseum, but O(log n) is at least as plausible as O(1) for vector-ref.
2020-10-21T15:01:36Z ManDay: I'll be throwing a party once my software reaches a point where I have to worry about these kind of performance improvements ;o)
2020-10-21T15:01:59Z Zipheir: Exactly.
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2020-10-21T15:06:33Z lockywolf: ?
2020-10-21T15:06:52Z lockywolf: vectors can easily be gigabytes long.
2020-10-21T15:06:56Z lockywolf: quite noticeable
2020-10-21T15:07:38Z lockywolf: (never tried vectors that long in scheme though)
2020-10-21T15:08:04Z Zipheir: Bytevectors, certainly.
2020-10-21T15:08:11Z lockywolf: What was that npm package that shipped Shakespeare's poem?
2020-10-21T15:09:25Z lockywolf: Or, rather, some popular package that fetched the full Shakespeare's collection of works via dependency tree.
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2020-10-21T15:10:51Z Zipheir: Pfft, that's just a few megabytes.
2020-10-21T15:11:02Z ManDay: npm? shakespeare? how is that related?
2020-10-21T15:11:20Z lockywolf: https://www.npmjs.com/package/shakespeare-data
2020-10-21T15:11:35Z ManDay: why would we care about npm? (i hate node)
2020-10-21T15:11:50Z ManDay: (honest question, i don't see your point)
2020-10-21T15:12:11Z lockywolf: we wouldn't
2020-10-21T15:12:19Z Zipheir: Which reminds me of a hilarious web design essay/rant which recommended never writing a page bigger than the works of Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, and Chekhov combined.
2020-10-21T15:12:19Z lockywolf: I just remember jcowan mentioning it.
2020-10-21T15:12:40Z lockywolf: *mentioning it here
2020-10-21T15:13:19Z ManDay: so jcowan is a node.js disciple? now here goes his credibility as a schemer!
2020-10-21T15:13:24Z ManDay: tststs
2020-10-21T15:14:02Z lockywolf: (facepalm)
2020-10-21T15:14:10Z lockywolf: javascript is scheme, essentially
2020-10-21T15:14:13Z ManDay: well, tbh i have never bothered with npm. i just always stayed away from it. there is a remote chance it's actually a beautiful system
2020-10-21T15:14:21Z lockywolf: with a weird reader syntax
2020-10-21T15:14:49Z ManDay: lockywolf: just because it supports functional aspects that doesn't make it scheme. just as you reason that scheme is not lisp, heh
2020-10-21T15:14:59Z Zipheir: It's the crazy callback-driven async I/O that makes node.js so crazy.
2020-10-21T15:15:15Z Zipheir: Oops, two uses of "crazy" in one sentence.
2020-10-21T15:15:23Z lockywolf: ManDay, https://source-academy.github.io/sicp/
2020-10-21T15:15:31Z ManDay: one could say... crazy!
2020-10-21T15:16:48Z ManDay: lockywolf: i've been coding js for years. i doubt that any book, including sicp, will convince me that javascript is scheme [essentially].
2020-10-21T15:17:15Z ManDay: i don't even know why we are talking about half of things that we're talking about right now
2020-10-21T15:17:17Z ManDay gets back to work
2020-10-21T15:19:34Z Zipheir: .i'e There are more interesting things to do than to debate whether JS is a Lisp.
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2020-10-21T15:50:47Z jcowan: I am not a node.js disciple, and I mentioned the Shakespeare story as one of those "Wouldya believe it?" tales.  I very much admire Javascript: The Good Parts.
2020-10-21T15:50:59Z jcowan: (the book and the subset defined in it)
2020-10-21T15:52:59Z ManDay: jcowan: oh don't get me wrong. i love javascript/ecma (not sure what's the state these days, but back then). just not a big nodejs fan
2020-10-21T15:53:29Z ManDay: i was kidding about the discipe, of course ;)
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2020-10-21T16:29:39Z amirouche: I plan to rely on callback code for my search engine... because it think it will be faster than the call/cc based code.
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2020-10-21T17:15:15Z mdhughes: JavaScript isn't exactly Scheme, it's Self with crappy syntax. But Self was a mix of LISP, Algol, and Scheme influences. So transitively, JS is Scheme(-ish).
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2020-10-21T17:22:50Z jcowan: Transitively everything is Lisp-ish nowadays
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2020-10-21T17:32:22Z jcowan: there are few languages with zero Lisp influence that are still in use
2020-10-21T17:41:12Z mdhughes: C has very little LISP-nature.
2020-10-21T17:43:32Z Zipheir: http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional
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2020-10-21T17:57:14Z jcowan: That's more about its Haskell-nature.
2020-10-21T17:59:00Z amirouche: I stopped reading at the "In this way, the geniuses..." :o)
2020-10-21T17:59:01Z jcowan: But C and Scheme (and CL insofar as it is a Scheme) are both descendants of Algol 60.
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2020-10-21T18:09:54Z Zipheir: amirouche: It's tongue-in-cheek.
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2020-10-21T18:10:36Z Zipheir: I'm sure Sussman and Steele would say "Haskell nature" just factors through Lisp nature.
2020-10-21T18:12:28Z Zipheir: "I always say that there are really only two languages: Lisp and Fortran." --Sussman
2020-10-21T18:16:16Z libfud: what about Forth?
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2020-10-21T18:17:21Z jcowan: Even fortran is getting a bit lispy these days thanks to its OO
2020-10-21T18:24:11Z Zipheir: libfud: Forthtran, you mean? :)
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2020-10-21T20:05:16Z aeth: On Lisp/Scheme influence in languages... it's so common these days, but it's basically just "GC and closures/lambdas" while there are a lot of features that rarely if ever get copied (like the numeric tower). So if you're talking about Lisp/Scheme influence in a particular language, it's imo more useful to focus on the features that rarely get copied.
2020-10-21T20:07:16Z gwatt: Copying the macro system(s) is somewhat done by other languages.
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2020-10-21T21:53:49Z ZombieChicken: bah
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2020-10-21T23:12:21Z amirouche: arew
2020-10-21T23:12:23Z amirouche: babelia
2020-10-21T23:12:27Z amirouche: zk
2020-10-21T23:12:30Z amirouche: ix
2020-10-21T23:12:34Z amirouche: copernic
2020-10-21T23:12:36Z amirouche: ..
2020-10-21T23:12:38Z amirouche: .
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2020-10-21T23:41:24Z TCZ: delta india charlie kilo
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2020-10-21T23:46:44Z libfud: victor alpha golf india november alpha
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2020-10-21T23:55:20Z autumn[m]: :/
2020-10-21T23:56:51Z libfud: sorry, I couldn't help but join the vulgar display
2020-10-21T23:59:01Z autumn[m]: hrm, fair enough! hrm.
2020-10-22T00:00:01Z TCZ: herbstluft
2020-10-22T00:17:39Z Riastradh: um
2020-10-22T00:17:47Z Riastradh: Let's maybe bring the topic back to Scheme, shall we?
2020-10-22T00:21:12Z foof: There's a topic?
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2020-10-22T01:18:41Z groovy: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/joIS1izJ/factorial1
2020-10-22T01:18:45Z groovy: this program
2020-10-22T01:18:49Z groovy: can it be shortened
2020-10-22T01:18:50Z groovy: to
2020-10-22T01:19:42Z groovy: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1MxhQA67/factorial2
2020-10-22T01:19:56Z groovy: oh wait
2020-10-22T01:19:57Z groovy: nvm
2020-10-22T01:19:58Z groovy: i goofed
2020-10-22T01:20:06Z groovy: disregard
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2020-10-22T02:48:06Z groovy: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/RsHfkSLn/inc
2020-10-22T02:48:12Z groovy: with this function
2020-10-22T02:48:27Z groovy: where inc and dec increment and decrement respectively
2020-10-22T02:48:43Z groovy: why is that if you evaluate (+ 4 5) it expands out into a series of (inc (inc ...))
2020-10-22T02:48:55Z groovy: is that a result of normal order evaluation?
2020-10-22T02:49:19Z groovy: I thought scheme/lisp did lazy/applicative so it would expand the innermost procedure right?
2020-10-22T02:49:59Z groovy: the exercise to determine if this was iterative or recursive I got right int hat I believed it to be recursive
2020-10-22T02:50:25Z groovy: but when I substituted myself I goofed it up
2020-10-22T02:51:16Z groovy: i guess because + has a different meaning than the standard +?
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2020-10-22T03:53:43Z jcowan: Pure does have the numeric tower, and Haskell has a close variant of it.
2020-10-22T03:53:58Z jcowan: The whole idea of (integer? 5.0) => #t is really kind of strange
2020-10-22T03:54:17Z jcowan: I mean, it might be more or less than an #e5
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2020-10-22T03:56:28Z mdhughes: Python has a nice "numeric tower" that doesn't require a lot of gymnastics.
2020-10-22T03:57:12Z mdhughes: Julia, too, but it's more visible what type you're working with, sometimes annoying.
2020-10-22T03:59:41Z Zipheir: groovy: It would help if you pasted your definitions of inc and dec, and what output you're expecting.
2020-10-22T04:00:01Z aeth: What ruins most "numeric tower"s is not being willing to have significant whitespace in the right place in infix languages. That is, "4/3" should be a rational, but "4 / 3" could easily still be division in that case.
2020-10-22T04:00:21Z aeth: the only thing that doesn't really make sense surrounded by spaces is prefix negation like -x
2020-10-22T04:00:42Z Zipheir: Aw, come on, nothing that minor can "ruin" a number system.
2020-10-22T04:00:51Z Zipheir: Just use a different rational syntax.
2020-10-22T04:01:39Z aeth: It's not minor. Scheme has really complicated numeric syntax, like 4+3/4i or +inf.0-3i or whatever and that's because its tokens are mostly whitespace-separated
2020-10-22T04:01:57Z jcowan: Or just say 3/4 is obviously a constant so we compile it as a constant.
2020-10-22T04:02:05Z aeth: You can have complicated syntax for things like rationals, but now it's not intuitive and anything you use takes it off-limits for the rest of the language
2020-10-22T04:02:10Z Zipheir: Yeah, which is IIRC what Go does.
2020-10-22T04:02:32Z jcowan: The problem witht that in Lisp is `read`, which most languages don't have.
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2020-10-22T04:28:47Z mdhughes: https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/complex-and-rational-numbers/
2020-10-22T04:29:32Z mdhughes: It's not that hard to include in an algebraic parser. The // operator for fractions is weird because I'm used to it meaning "int div" in Python, or comments in C, but…
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2020-10-22T04:34:11Z libfud: it's also integer division in lua
2020-10-22T04:34:56Z libfud: do you accept % for modulus even though it has a different meaning outside of programming?
2020-10-22T04:37:42Z foof: Lisp is the only readable language.  -- jcowan (paraphrasing)
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2020-10-22T04:41:22Z libfud: I want to argue against that but I'm hard pressed to think of another language where I didn't see some bizarre or very ugly construct
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2020-10-22T04:42:03Z libfud: python's mostly readable until you get to comprehensions which I despise writing
2020-10-22T04:42:06Z libfud: and reading
2020-10-22T04:42:13Z aeth: I should make a programming language where % is a postfix operator meaning "divide by 100" so e.g. 100 % or 100% is 1
2020-10-22T04:42:19Z aeth: it'd confuse programmers, but make intuitive sense
2020-10-22T04:42:22Z libfud: I seriously don't get why python is so hostile to FP concepts
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2020-10-22T05:11:58Z mdhughes: Python isn't really "hostile" so much as not designed for that. It has a small smashable stack, it's a replacement for sed/awk/perl.
2020-10-22T05:12:54Z libfud: I think most of my annoyance at Python stems from its huge popularity leading it to be used for everything, forcing me to use it at a scope way larger than I think appropriate for it
2020-10-22T05:14:18Z mdhughes: The trouble is nobody else really made a good glue language for C libraries, so Python is often the only usable choice.
2020-10-22T05:14:41Z mdhughes: I'm smashing my head on C FFI in Scheme, and it can work, but it's hard. Normal people wouldn't do this.
2020-10-22T05:17:20Z libfud: FFIs are tricky yeah
2020-10-22T05:17:27Z libfud: Rust's C FFI didn't seem too bad
2020-10-22T05:17:57Z libfud: SWIG was so horrible that I switched our project to Boost.python
2020-10-22T05:18:36Z libfud: thankfully it didn't take much time to make the switch, but we still bear warts in our C++ library from Swig's malignant presence
2020-10-22T05:19:12Z foof takes a swig
2020-10-22T05:20:18Z libfud: lua meanwhile is shockingly easy, simple and, dare I say it, pleasant to use
2020-10-22T05:20:36Z foof takes a longer swig
2020-10-22T05:20:57Z Zipheir: Sort of inexpressive and clunky, though.
2020-10-22T05:21:21Z foof becomes inexpressive and clunky
2020-10-22T05:21:22Z libfud: eh, I'm okay with that
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2020-10-22T05:21:28Z Zipheir: And there is no "good glue language".
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2020-10-22T05:21:59Z libfud: I'm ok with working with the lack of expresssivity because I'm still able to accomplish what I needed to with it
2020-10-22T05:22:19Z Zipheir: Yeah.
2020-10-22T05:23:53Z libfud: context switching between 3 different langauges on a single project is a bit taxing to me though since we use different style guides for each
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2020-10-22T05:24:09Z Riastradh: solution: pick one style guide and use it for all three languages
2020-10-22T05:24:25Z libfud: Riastradh: "next time"
2020-10-22T05:24:40Z Zipheir: Three context switches, ouch, that's hard on one's kernel.
2020-10-22T05:24:58Z libfud: Zipheir: that's not even including the SQL lol
2020-10-22T05:25:10Z libfud: speaking of - why is ORM so damn complex?
2020-10-22T05:25:54Z Riastradh: libfud: https://web.archive.org/web/20160428205039/cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html
2020-10-22T05:26:20Z Riastradh: Official Google INTERCAL style guide -- just apply the same style to every other language involved, to keep it simple.
2020-10-22T05:26:32Z libfud: what are even the difference between bad good and better
2020-10-22T05:26:49Z libfud: PLEASE STASH
2020-10-22T05:27:32Z libfud: I see.
2020-10-22T05:27:44Z libfud: I'd rather not ever look at this joke again
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2020-10-22T06:02:27Z mdhughes: Way back when the joke was new, I wrote some INTERCAL code, I came dangerously close to having a working CGI library for it (couldn't generate full HTML, just text responses to forms)
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2020-10-22T06:22:11Z Zipheir: I'm really tired, but I can't figure out where lies the joke.
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2020-10-22T07:47:04Z mdhughes: https://www.whoishostingthis.com/resources/intercal/
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2020-10-22T07:48:51Z mdhughes: Note also Don Woods, perpetrator of INTERCAL, wrote/updated Colossal Caves Adventure.
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2020-10-22T07:51:11Z amirouche: mdhughes: what is the problem with chez's c ffi?
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2020-10-22T07:51:59Z mdhughes: Nothing wrong, as far as C FFI goes. It's just language mismatch is hard.
2020-10-22T07:52:22Z mdhughes: Struct arrays suck to build, that's for sure.
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2020-10-22T07:53:32Z amirouche: good point
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2020-10-22T08:12:40Z mdhughes: I often desperately miss Objective-C, where I could just write C inline, and the Foundation APIs were toll-free-bridged to the Cocoa objects.
2020-10-22T08:14:05Z mdhughes: But I don't miss having to run dtrace or lldb because I smashed the stack somewhere 100 levels inside UIKit.
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2020-10-22T11:12:52Z jcowan: The best C FFIs are found in C and C++.
2020-10-22T11:14:30Z jcowan: But otherwise you have two choices:  write ugly glue code in C, or write ugly glue code in the main language.
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2020-10-22T13:29:40Z siraben: I've had pretty good success with Haskell <→ C interop, believe it or not.
2020-10-22T13:30:06Z siraben: C calling Haskell calling C calling Haskell
2020-10-22T13:30:48Z jcowan: Most of Haskell's FFI isn't hard-coded, which is a Good Thing.  Pure also has a decent FFI.
2020-10-22T13:30:59Z jcowan: "Haskell, the world's best imperative programming language."
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2020-10-22T13:35:52Z siraben: Hehe
2020-10-22T13:36:42Z siraben: jcowan: using h2hsc you can also control the way a Haskell datatype is representing in C memory, so it makes sense to talk about a pointer to that datatype, etc.
2020-10-22T13:36:54Z siraben: But alas, doesn't save you from null pointers.
2020-10-22T13:37:25Z jcowan: h2hsc is precisely outside ghc, which means it can evolve separately.
2020-10-22T13:38:01Z jcowan: and because of Haskell's strengths, those conversions are less likely to be buggy.
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2020-10-22T13:44:38Z siraben: Ah, I see.
2020-10-22T13:59:44Z ManDay: cd /t
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2020-10-22T16:35:32Z lockywolf: wasamasa: your blog should now be on planet scheme
2020-10-22T16:36:04Z wasamasa: with misspelled first name, lol
2020-10-22T16:36:14Z wasamasa: how did they fuck that up
2020-10-22T16:36:48Z wasamasa: I thought it's autogenerated from blog metadata, seems not
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2020-10-22T19:53:21Z amirouche: today I came to the conclusion that coding is very difficult, it was never as obvious as today :/
2020-10-22T19:53:42Z amirouche: and coding in free time is even more difficult.
2020-10-22T19:53:48Z libfud: coding or software design/engineering?
2020-10-22T19:54:06Z libfud: especially when you're in crunch mode
2020-10-22T19:54:21Z amirouche: coding specifically. I keep designing system but I do not have energy to do the code.
2020-10-22T19:55:16Z amirouche: probably designing is hard, anyway you can't be sure your design is good until the code is written and "tested"
2020-10-22T20:09:26Z wasamasa: yes
2020-10-22T20:09:57Z wasamasa: I try to avoid designing anything to be used by other people for that reason
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2020-10-22T20:25:21Z Riastradh: amirouche: Suggestion: Alternate between high-level design and picking and implementing _and testing_ small pieces.  Seeing small pieces working in action helps trigger dopamine.
2020-10-22T20:26:20Z Riastradh: Make sure the tests are automated so you can get feedback when they break, not just because it's a lot of work to fix but because getting the feedback is psychologically helpful for motivation.
2020-10-22T20:27:19Z Riastradh: In the lockpicking world, where there are many different kinds of locks and picking them takes some physical skill and training but also some randomness, there's a notion of a `confidence lock'.
2020-10-22T20:28:04Z Riastradh: If you find yourself getting discouraged because a lock you thought you knew how to pick is resisting your efforts, you might start to question whether you're any good at it at all, and you might be tempted to give up.
2020-10-22T20:29:02Z Riastradh: A `confidence lock' is a lock with a smaller number of pins that's very easy to pick.  When you get stuck like that, going back to a confidence lock -- and getting the immense satisfaction of that last *click* or just sudden lack of resistance in your tensioner -- can inspire your confidence again and get you back to it.
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2020-10-22T20:33:47Z Zipheir: amirouche: You've stated in the past that you "mostly work on projects which can never be finished", or something like that, so maybe a small confidence lock is a good idea.
2020-10-22T20:35:54Z Zipheir: amirouche: Some of the puzzles from last year's Advent Of Code were fun.  You might try some of those in your free time https://adventofcode.com/
2020-10-22T20:36:39Z libfud: be careful about what you think is a small project
2020-10-22T20:36:56Z libfud: I once thought it'd be a small project to make a calculator using lisp style syntax
2020-10-22T20:37:09Z libfud: and then I wound up making a very crappy lisp interpreter
2020-10-22T20:38:59Z Zipheir: Getting carried away with a project sounds like a better state of mind to be in than burning out and giving up.
2020-10-22T20:39:38Z libfud: ^
2020-10-22T20:39:41Z amirouche: thanks a lot folks
2020-10-22T20:40:12Z libfud: Zipheir: that one happened when I decided the program would be a lot more useful with a way of storing variables
2020-10-22T20:40:52Z gwatt: It also helps to set specific goals. Having checklist and being able to cross items off is motivating
2020-10-22T20:41:45Z amirouche: I do that already, maybe my checklist is not detailed enough, every item is a big.
2020-10-22T20:41:50Z Riastradh: checklists are great
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2020-10-22T21:31:59Z autumn[m]: wrt automated tests specifically: I've always been like ... a little wary of the notion of automated testing, because it felt like writing twice the code for one thing, but I did do it once. ...Is there any general methodology for like, how to do tests in a language that either doesn't have a testing framework, or that you aren't motivated/willing to go find/install one? Like, I suppose I could manually write out what seems
2020-10-22T21:31:59Z autumn[m]: to be required as a separate program that calls into parts I've already written as libraries...
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2020-10-22T21:36:01Z Riastradh: A program that just uses the library and does (assert <test>) is a good start.
2020-10-22T21:36:31Z Riastradh: I sometimes use a collection of small programs that print predictable output, and then use a makefile to diff the actual output from the expected output.
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2020-10-22T21:59:42Z jcowan: I think I will extend my title in R7RS-large from "chief cook and bottle washer" to "chief cook, bottle washer, and cat herder".
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2020-10-22T22:09:42Z foof hisses
2020-10-22T22:10:15Z jcowan: Relax, relax, I'm not herding *you*.
2020-10-22T22:14:08Z erkin: hahah
2020-10-22T22:14:15Z autumn[m]: *giggle* <.<
2020-10-22T22:15:02Z Zipheir: Maybe jcowan is washing the bottles foof was swigging out of yesterday.
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2020-10-22T22:15:46Z jcowan: it is quite amazing to me that so many people have been willing to work implementing and improving my specs.  This may be a coronavirus effect, of course.
2020-10-22T22:16:14Z Zipheir: Hopefully it's not a symptom.
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2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: ccl-logbot hugh_marera jobol klovett gravicappa DGASAU aeth astronavt miasuji skapata lockywolf cantstanya ex_nihilo tamarindo terpri deuill malaclyps evhan madage ArneBab hendursaga xlei gnomon acarrico choas bitmapper Lambdajack retropikzel ZombieChicken epony Blukunfando fadein terrorjack daviid yumh casaca kori notzmv tryte sm2n_ ski stux16777216Away elflng dTal ecraven lortabac nullheroes libfud mjsir911 Zipheir dmiles topoi autumn[m] pukkamustard[m]
2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: Gnuxie[m] mbakke even4void[m] siraben Ericson2314 dieggsy lpsmith ggoes ByronJohnson xelxebar drakonis pflanze X-Scale jxy mason _apg hyiltiz m1dnight_ midre drot xi ravndal rudybot dmc00 Blkt webshinra sp1ff mdhughes emacsomancer Riastradh hive-mind sdu evdubs nisstyre astronavt___ lavaflow stux|work ec gf3_ cemerick elly englishm dan64 iltutmus ohama timwis mroh clog dozzie titanbiscuit Balooga pinoaffe aoh kilimanjaro laxask snits joast conjunctive aos
2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: d_run tdammers ullbeking erkin Khisanth cpape balkamos gwatt amirouche h11 samth ineiros fgudin_ ft z0d nevermind nikita` Boarders krjst nckx Zenton brown121407 friscosa1 kwmiebach duncanm tessier hugo Duns_Scrotus laertus bchar groovy poga weinholt rann _anb lad mats rotty greaser|q rickbutton physpi stephe jcowan travv0 dnm wasamasa bitwiz heredoc_ `micro lloda mrkotfw amoe ramin cky copec averell Yardanico fizzie LeoNerd mario-goulart jboy Oxyd pounce
2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: cdadr eMBee ozzloy DeeEff_ danielkoning gabot davl DerGuteMoritz dpk fiddlerwoaroof jackhill Ekho bandali foof eagleflo cmatei add^_ cibs kbtr Kooda belmarca vultyre bsima Frankenlime SirDayBat wigust grobe0ba rubic kjak r3x5 bashbjorn yosafbridge r0kc4t
2020-10-23T06:42:58Z mdhughes: amirouche: I find coding is the fun, easy part. Integration and deployment is Hell.
2020-10-23T06:45:00Z mdhughes: autumn[m]: There's a test framework in SRFI-64, but not a good runner, so I wrote https://mdhughes.tech/2020/02/27/scheme-test-unit/
2020-10-23T06:45:18Z mdhughes: autumn[m]: But CHICKEN has the `test` egg, which does that too.
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2020-10-23T09:17:33Z lockywolf: what was the name of that feature: having macros in a non-head position?
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2020-10-23T09:19:36Z wasamasa: symbol macros?
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2020-10-23T09:38:21Z amirouche: like cond's symbol '=>' ?
2020-10-23T09:38:46Z amirouche: it is not a symbol, it is a syntax object, but I do not know the true name
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2020-10-23T09:43:37Z wasamasa: what's the difference between hash-table-for-each and hash-table-walk in srfi-69?
2020-10-23T09:50:12Z ecraven: I think the order of arguments is reversed, traditionalyl?
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2020-10-23T10:05:14Z wasamasa: ah, it seems hash-table-for-each isn't in the document, but in CHICKEN's implementation
2020-10-23T10:05:15Z wasamasa: weird
2020-10-23T10:06:58Z ecraven: oh, yea, sorry, -walk is the only one actually *in* the srfi.. but most Schemes seem to have -for-each (with reversed argument order)
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2020-10-23T10:09:17Z wasamasa: FFS
2020-10-23T10:09:36Z wasamasa: even if I use a SRFI portability is nowhere near guaranteed
2020-10-23T10:09:56Z ecraven: of course not... that's what I hope r7rs-large will solve
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2020-10-23T12:09:29Z hoppfull: #f is false and #t is true, but how can I make new #-things? What are they?
2020-10-23T12:09:44Z hoppfull: I can't find any information on it.
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2020-10-23T12:10:32Z ecraven: hoppfull: there's no portable way. some Schemes have extensible readers, for those, you can define new read-macros
2020-10-23T12:10:43Z ecraven: (MIT/GNU Scheme for example allows this)
2020-10-23T12:10:45Z amirouche: hoppfull: what are you tryint to achieve?
2020-10-23T12:10:50Z hoppfull: Is that what it is? a "read-macro"?
2020-10-23T12:11:00Z amirouche: yes
2020-10-23T12:11:02Z hoppfull: amirouche, nothing, just curious
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2020-10-23T12:11:35Z amirouche: hoppfull: guile does it too, but I think it has some security problems, like it change the behavior of the reader for the whole program, not just a single library.
2020-10-23T12:12:21Z hoppfull: I started wondering when I tried to create a hash table or map or whatever it's called in scheme and I saw this `#hash(("key" . "value")) but it won't execute
2020-10-23T12:12:32Z hoppfull: I'm using Chez Scheme right now
2020-10-23T12:13:19Z ecraven: chez does not allow extending the reader, unfortunately, afaik
2020-10-23T12:13:31Z hoppfull: ok, interesting
2020-10-23T12:13:43Z hoppfull: "extending the reader", I'm going to have to look into that
2020-10-23T12:13:51Z amirouche: do not quote my on the "security problem" I am not sure.
2020-10-23T12:14:04Z hoppfull: Is that like changing the syntax beyond just define-syntax?
2020-10-23T12:14:19Z amirouche: yes, it is before macro expansion
2020-10-23T12:14:27Z hoppfull: hmm, ok
2020-10-23T12:14:58Z hoppfull: So guile has this? I was planning on using guile or maybe chibi later because I want to extend other languages with it.
2020-10-23T12:15:22Z amirouche: you need to create a reader program, like https://github.com/weinholt/laesare
2020-10-23T12:16:06Z amirouche: hoppfull: depends on the program, but chez is very fast... even guile people recommend writing guile program and speed up the bottleneck with C. The reverse approach to embedding...
2020-10-23T12:17:06Z amirouche: I mean except if you already have a working C / C++ program, if you write from scratch, you'd rather write all the interface or logic with scheme, then if necessary and proven possible to optimize, write C code.
2020-10-23T12:17:32Z hoppfull: yeah, that seems a good approach
2020-10-23T12:17:58Z amirouche: hoppfull: if you look for a c++ embedding with guile there is the program called `libfive`
2020-10-23T12:18:02Z hoppfull: There are some problems where you want to modify the program while it's running and lisp seems very good at this.
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2020-10-23T12:18:45Z amirouche: I think chez can be embedded, but I never tried, maybe the REPL is an example of embedding?
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2020-10-23T12:19:14Z amirouche: hoppfull: did you look at actondev code with s7 and dear imgui?
2020-10-23T12:19:21Z hoppfull: So I was thinking I build general complex algorithms in haskell, use the ffi to start a guile repl from main :: IO () and get the best of both worlds
2020-10-23T12:19:41Z amirouche hides
2020-10-23T12:19:59Z hoppfull: No, but I saw s7
2020-10-23T12:20:08Z hoppfull: Don't remember why I didn't consider it.
2020-10-23T12:20:25Z amirouche: what does your program?
2020-10-23T12:20:36Z hoppfull: What?
2020-10-23T12:20:44Z amirouche: what is the purpose of your program?
2020-10-23T12:21:38Z amirouche: the program you want to code?
2020-10-23T12:21:44Z hoppfull: I'm not building a program right now. I'm just looking to expand my "algorithmic power" and understand different paradigms.
2020-10-23T12:22:24Z amirouche: hmm
2020-10-23T12:22:34Z hoppfull: For example when I worked with Haskell, we used datastructures that probably would've been better to define in lisp and analyzed statically
2020-10-23T12:23:07Z amirouche: I am not familiar with haskell, but others are... wait a little they will show up
2020-10-23T12:23:12Z hoppfull: Right now, I'm working with miniKanren and trying to learn relational programming.
2020-10-23T12:23:23Z hoppfull: I'm also familiar with Haskell.
2020-10-23T12:23:24Z amirouche: hoppfull: I tried minikanren quiet a lot
2020-10-23T12:23:28Z hoppfull: cool
2020-10-23T12:23:48Z amirouche: the problem is that I did not find an interesting usecase on my own, barliman is impressive tho
2020-10-23T12:24:01Z hoppfull: I also got the book "The Little Typer" and "Types and Programming languages"
2020-10-23T12:24:18Z amirouche: at least Zipheir is knowledgeable about those
2020-10-23T12:24:45Z hoppfull: I suspect miniKanren can help implement a type system.
2020-10-23T12:26:01Z hoppfull: Programming without static types is almost intolerable. Implemented a unit testing library the first thing I did. lol Programming without it felt like walking in a garden full of rakes.
2020-10-23T12:26:28Z hoppfull: Anyway, thank you for your help!
2020-10-23T12:27:11Z hoppfull: Lisp is cool though, the fact that you can change it into anything is amazing.
2020-10-23T12:36:55Z amirouche: hoppfull: several people investigate how to add static typing or gradual static typing
2020-10-23T12:37:22Z amirouche: I think the effort does not worth the outcome
2020-10-23T12:37:24Z amirouche: ymmc
2020-10-23T12:37:26Z amirouche: ymmv
2020-10-23T12:37:47Z hoppfull: Maybe that's true. But it's interesting to try.
2020-10-23T12:39:31Z amirouche: yeah sure, look into typed racket
2020-10-23T12:40:20Z hoppfull: I have. I'm not sure what I think about racket yet. My main desire is to extend other languages.
2020-10-23T12:41:13Z amirouche: you might be interested in the freenode channel #proglangdesign
2020-10-23T12:42:21Z hoppfull: cool, thanks!
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2020-10-23T14:50:47Z hoppfull: How do I know on which line an exception was thrown?
2020-10-23T14:54:52Z mdhughes: Generally you can't, but if you read the sequence of functions it called it's easy to find.
2020-10-23T14:55:48Z mdhughes: And this is why I put a lot of caveman output statements in my code, so I know exactly where something failed.
2020-10-23T14:59:58Z LeoNerd: For all the fancy debug tools I have, most of the time I find just a bunch of print statements quite sufficient
2020-10-23T15:00:05Z LeoNerd: Regardless of language
2020-10-23T15:00:14Z hoppfull: It's nice if we don't have bugs at all.
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2020-10-23T15:15:44Z mdhughes: Right? Just stop coding them.
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2020-10-23T15:31:49Z amirouche: pk ftw
2020-10-23T15:37:23Z lockywolf: lockywolf
2020-10-23T15:38:09Z lockywolf: symbol-ma
2020-10-23T15:38:12Z lockywolf: crap...
2020-10-23T16:02:01Z jcowan: hash-table--for-each is in SRFI 125, which is part of R7RS-large.  Hash-table-walk is also part of 125 but deprecated.
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2020-10-23T16:49:10Z mdhughes: hash-table-for-each is present but a private function in CSUG, but it's trivial to just (vector-for-each (λ (k) ...) (hashtable-keys h))
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2020-10-23T16:54:24Z Zipheir: If you need static typing, there's the Pie language from The Little Typer, which is built on top of Typed Racket https://github.com/the-little-typer
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2020-10-23T16:55:33Z Zipheir: It has a pretty elegant dependent type system with typed holes.  It doesn't integrate the gradual typing of the underlying language, unfortunately.
2020-10-23T16:55:56Z Zipheir: (Understandable, given that gradual dependent types are a topic of very current research.)
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2020-10-23T16:56:06Z Zipheir: hopefull: ^^
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2020-10-23T19:27:41Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let* ((x 1.) (x (+ x (sin x))) (x (+ x (sin x))) (x (+ x (sin x))) (x (+ x (sin x))) (x (+ x (sin x)))) x)
2020-10-23T19:27:44Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2020-10-23T19:27:44Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 3.141592653589793
2020-10-23T19:35:18Z gwatt: Riastradh: what were you trying to figure out with that?
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2020-10-23T19:38:07Z Riastradh: gwatt: Nothing, just sharing something fun.
2020-10-23T19:38:39Z gwatt: ah, fair enough. I assume that's a series (taylor series?) for generating pi?
2020-10-23T19:40:09Z Riastradh: Well, you can use the Taylor series of sin(pi - t) to prove that x := x + sin(x) starting at x = 1 rapidly converges to x = pi.
2020-10-23T19:53:30Z Riastradh: You can also use it to identify how bad the argument reduction in your math library's sin function is, because for small t, sin(pi - t) ~ t, so if fl(pi) = pi + e where e = O(eps), then sin(fl(pi)) = sin(pi + e) = -e + O(eps^2).
2020-10-23T19:56:04Z Riastradh: So if your sin implementation does good argument reduction when computing an approximation s to sin(fl(pi)), you'll get fl(pi) - s = pi + O(eps^2).  But if not, well...with the Intel i387 in extended precision mode, FSIN on fl(pi) (here fl(pi) is the binary80 value nearest to pi) returns 1.22464679914735317722606593227500105820974944592307e-16 when the correct answer is
2020-10-23T19:56:09Z Riastradh: -5.0165576126683320235573270803307570138336657692183e-20.  Which shows that FSIN does some very bad argument reduction!
2020-10-23T19:57:51Z Riastradh: ...er, rather: e = O(pi*eps), sin(pi + e) = -e + O(e*eps^2), fl(pi - s) = pi + O(pi*eps^2).  (relative error, not absolute error)
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2020-10-23T20:02:52Z Riastradh: bah, fl(pi) + s, not fl(pi) - s, knew I'd make an odd number of sign errors
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2020-10-23T20:11:24Z Riastradh: And, indeed, the Intel manual reveals the i387 FSIN uses a mere 66 bits of precision in its approximation to pi, 0x0.c90fdaa22168c234cp+2, instead of something more like 0x0.c90fdaa22168c234c4c6628b80dc1cd1p+2 in order to return the correct error.
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2020-10-23T20:19:42Z Riastradh: (you can recover Intel's approximation by adding fl(pi) + FSIN(fl(pi)) in higher precision)
2020-10-23T20:30:28Z libfud: rudybot: eval (* 4 (atan 1))
2020-10-23T20:30:28Z rudybot: libfud: ; Value: 3.141592653589793
2020-10-23T20:30:32Z libfud: good enough for me
2020-10-23T20:30:36Z libfud: :^)
2020-10-23T20:31:17Z libfud: iirc there's some technical reason as to why that's supposed to be a good way to define pi for any given arch but it's eluding me
2020-10-23T20:35:11Z Riastradh: (atan 0 -1) is a little more direct
2020-10-23T20:35:15Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (atan 0 -1)
2020-10-23T20:35:15Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 3.141592653589793
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2020-10-23T20:36:56Z libfud: I didn't ever check that trig functions were variadic
2020-10-23T20:37:10Z libfud: neat
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2020-10-23T20:37:43Z Riastradh: atan(y,x) is roughly atan(y/x), but with signs preserved where y/x would lose them.
2020-10-23T20:37:50Z libfud: I see
2020-10-23T20:37:57Z libfud: not variadic then
2020-10-23T20:38:04Z Riastradh: Just one or two arguments.
2020-10-23T20:38:37Z libfud: essentially atan2
2020-10-23T20:38:43Z Riastradh: right
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2020-10-23T20:51:39Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-10-23T20:56:10Z Riastradh: oops, rather, FSIN(fl(pi)) returns -5.42101086242752217003726400434970855712890625e-20 when the correct answer is -5.0165576126683320235573270803307570138336657692183e-20.  (Inadvertently computed FSIN on the nearest binary64 approximation to pi, not on the nearest a binary80 approximation to pi.)
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2020-10-24T16:11:15Z amirouche: mouarf my event-loop is broken
2020-10-24T16:11:41Z amirouche: also the confidence lock worked.
2020-10-24T16:12:48Z amirouche: The event-loop does not work with other threads except when the event-loop is always running
2020-10-24T16:12:58Z amirouche: This is really a problem for testing
2020-10-24T16:15:14Z amirouche: where the event loop needs to start and stop all the time, unlike a running program where the event-loop run once and never stops
2020-10-24T16:15:51Z amirouche: there is similar issue with guile-fibers.
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2020-10-24T16:19:12Z amirouche: and this is really a problem when using two or more threads.. which is the case of foundationdb client.
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2020-10-24T19:09:09Z amirouche: wasamasa: here is a draft post that translate SPARQL to nstore queries: https://hyper.dev/blog/sparql-to-nstore.html
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2020-10-24T19:09:19Z wasamasa: ok, cool
2020-10-24T19:09:35Z wasamasa: I've spent time on the project today, trying to figure out how to do the equivalent in SQL
2020-10-24T19:09:41Z wasamasa: didn't know about EAVs before
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2020-10-24T19:10:17Z amirouche: the problem with sql, is you need to have three tables with a table with EAV, a table AVE and another table something
2020-10-24T19:10:27Z amirouche: or use multiples indices
2020-10-24T19:10:57Z amirouche: Use a single EAV table, index EAV columns, that AVE columns and the third I forget
2020-10-24T19:12:03Z wasamasa: hm, didn't consider that the generator functions help here
2020-10-24T19:13:12Z wasamasa: isn't the blog post missing the storage part though
2020-10-24T19:13:22Z wasamasa: otherwise it's hard to reproduce it
2020-10-24T19:14:10Z amirouche: the storage part?
2020-10-24T19:14:28Z amirouche: yeah, it just how to write SPARQL queries using the API from srfi-168
2020-10-24T19:15:47Z wasamasa: the example database
2020-10-24T19:15:52Z wasamasa: the data part specifically
2020-10-24T19:17:04Z amirouche: there is no data yet, you need to know sparql to make sense of the queries
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2020-10-24T21:02:44Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (/ 1 -0.-1.i)
2020-10-24T21:02:45Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -0.0+1.0i
2020-10-24T21:02:51Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (/ 1 0.-1.i)
2020-10-24T21:02:51Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 0.0+1.0i
2020-10-24T21:03:23Z Riastradh: So which sign is correct, hmm...
2020-10-24T21:04:58Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (/ 1.+0.i 0.-1.i)
2020-10-24T21:04:58Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 0.0+1.0i
2020-10-24T21:05:04Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (/ 1.+0.i -0.-1.i)
2020-10-24T21:05:04Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: -0.0+1.0i
2020-10-24T21:05:10Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (/ 1.-0.i -0.-1.i)
2020-10-24T21:05:10Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 0.0+1.0i
2020-10-24T21:05:17Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (/ 1.-0.i 0.-1.i)
2020-10-24T21:05:17Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 0.0+1.0i
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2020-10-25T00:24:13Z Riastradh: jcowan: I just added (rsqrt z) = 1/sqrt(z), (sqrt1pm1 z) = sqrt(1 + z) - 1, (compound z n) = (1 + z)^n, and (compoundm1 z n) = (1 + z)^n - 1, to MIT Scheme.
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2020-10-25T00:25:30Z Riastradh: In so doing, I realized I don't have a good reference for the sign of zero in complex division outcomes.
2020-10-25T00:31:42Z aeth: I know it's valid, but 0.-1.i will never look like a number to me
2020-10-25T00:32:09Z aeth: it really just looks like a unit test case...
2020-10-25T00:36:28Z jcowan: IMO neither leading nor trailing dot should have been allowed in numbers in *any* programming language.
2020-10-25T00:47:13Z aeth: Interestingly, CL treats 1. and .1 differently. In Scheme, they're the same (floats), but in CL, .1 is 0.1 and 1. is the integer 1
2020-10-25T00:47:33Z aeth: I guess Scheme's makes more sense, but it is a way to force base 10 in CL iirc
2020-10-25T00:47:40Z jcowan: Yes, that's a hangover from Maclisp days, when 10 was eight and 10. was ten.
2020-10-25T00:48:00Z aeth: yeah, which you can configure as a global if you want to port your maclisp
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2020-10-25T00:48:25Z aeth: (setf *read-base* 8)
2020-10-25T00:48:44Z aeth: it's way less useful than *read-default-float-format* imo
2020-10-25T00:49:48Z jcowan: As a consequence, .foo is not a R[56]RS identifier, though it is valid in R7RS.
2020-10-25T00:50:31Z jcowan: because in the earlier standards the lexer was supposed to be able to tell what it had from the first character alone.
2020-10-25T00:50:42Z aeth: I guess +foo+ isn't, either? Does r6rs just make an exception for + and - the procedures?
2020-10-25T00:52:41Z jcowan: yes, and ... too
2020-10-25T00:53:04Z aeth: I like CL-style +foo+ constants since Scheme seems to lack a universal standard there
2020-10-25T00:53:53Z jcowan nods
2020-10-25T00:53:56Z aeth: I guess Scheme could use FOO like most case-sensitive languages do
2020-10-25T00:54:10Z jcowan: Most Schemes actually don't care: if it's not a number, it's an identifier.
2020-10-25T00:54:10Z aeth: It doesn't seem right in s-expressions, though
2020-10-25T00:54:31Z aeth: yeah, Racket is my go-to R6RS and '+foo+ and '.foo seem to be valid
2020-10-25T00:54:58Z jcowan: Vicare enforces most of the R6RS rules, so does Loko
2020-10-25T00:55:11Z jcowan: "docket run -it schemers/<whatever>" is your friend
2020-10-25T00:57:22Z jcowan: R6RS also has an exception for ->foo
2020-10-25T00:57:24Z Riastradh: jcowan: I EVEN added documentation to the manual.
2020-10-25T00:58:06Z jcowan: About what?
2020-10-25T01:01:11Z jcowan: Ah, I see.  Thanks.
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2020-10-25T03:04:48Z Riastradh: jcowan: I also updated the complex division routine to avoid spurious underflow and overflow.  It might be a good idea to point to a reference, such as <https://arxiv.org/abs/1210.4539v2>.
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2020-10-25T04:16:07Z lockywolf: where does "rathole" come from as an idiom?
2020-10-25T04:16:42Z lockywolf: As "a goal that can consume infinite effort and never be reached".
2020-10-25T04:31:21Z mdhughes: Ever send a tiny dog or weasel into a rathole?
2020-10-25T04:33:40Z Zipheir: Hmm, what century is this?
2020-10-25T04:34:59Z Zipheir: We could just call them "systemds".
2020-10-25T04:36:11Z mdhughes: Are rats somehow obsolete in the 21st C?
2020-10-25T04:39:35Z mdhughes: Of course, this is a gopherhole, but same principle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cv9yKxIEYI
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2020-10-25T04:44:23Z mdhughes: (I only know of systemd from hearing linuxes complain, but it seems to just be a reimplementation of OS X's launchd, which works fine. I assume they just complain because it's different and maybe usable)
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2020-10-25T04:49:44Z Zipheir: It's a never-ending project to replace everything that exists between the kernel and window manager on Linux.  It started as a semi-decent init/daemon supervisor.
2020-10-25T04:51:06Z drakonis: oh is it?
2020-10-25T04:51:12Z drakonis: them's some hot takes over here
2020-10-25T04:51:45Z Zipheir: It breaks less frequently than it used to, due to the massive support effort by Debian and Red Hat.  Sort of the same given-enough-thrust-even-pigs-can-fly effect that gave us Linux, so perhaps there's poetic symmetry.
2020-10-25T04:51:55Z drakonis: uh
2020-10-25T04:52:14Z drakonis: i think you're giving debian too much credit here
2020-10-25T04:52:36Z drakonis: they really don't influence systemd's development
2020-10-25T04:52:52Z drakonis: only recently they've begun to support it as a primary init in a stronger capacity
2020-10-25T04:53:09Z drakonis: recently being late last year
2020-10-25T04:53:21Z Zipheir: Debian switched to systemd by default five years ago.
2020-10-25T04:53:41Z drakonis: but it still maintained sysvinit and had a vote regarding systemd support last year
2020-10-25T04:53:51Z drakonis: it ended with roughly "systemd first, everything else optional"
2020-10-25T04:54:00Z Zipheir: And it was so horribly broken that they had to start #debian-systemd to deal with all the bugs.
2020-10-25T04:54:31Z drakonis: again, i dont see how debian has influenced systemd in any form
2020-10-25T04:54:40Z Zipheir: Perhaps not.
2020-10-25T04:56:56Z drakonis: we're well past the point of complaining about systemd
2020-10-25T04:58:43Z Zipheir: Well, fortunately there are still plenty of *nixen without it.
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2020-10-25T05:02:12Z Zipheir: Wadler's quote fits well: "The problem it solves is not difficult, and it does not solve it well."
2020-10-25T05:02:36Z Zipheir: (originally referring to XML)
2020-10-25T05:06:02Z aeth: apparently it actually is a hard problem because now we have SGML, HTML, XML, JSON, YAML, TOML, etc., and all have deep flaws in some area... enough to motivate people implementing the others.
2020-10-25T05:07:04Z Zipheir: All of them just keep expanding, which is part of the problem.
2020-10-25T05:07:20Z mdhughes: Anyone who says encoding arbitrary data structures with metadata isn't hard, has never tried to do it.
2020-10-25T05:07:31Z drakonis: https://www.tweag.io/blog/2020-10-22-nickel-open-sourcing/
2020-10-25T05:07:40Z aeth: And as far as systemd goes, people tend to hate it because it violates "the Unix philosophy"... but it's better than just using a bunch of shell scripts because shell is probably the most landmine-filled language out there.
2020-10-25T05:08:09Z aeth: People forget that a lot of us don't use Unix clones because of "the Unix philosophy" but because it's Unix or NT, and NT is proprietary...
2020-10-25T05:08:28Z Zipheir: XML was never supposed to be a data transfer format.
2020-10-25T05:08:38Z mdhughes: I don't use Unix clones, I use actual UNIX.
2020-10-25T05:08:48Z Zipheir: Hah.
2020-10-25T05:09:16Z aeth: The difference between a Unix clone and a Unix is that the latter pays money to license the Unix trademark. That's pretty much it. In some rare cases, some Linux distros get that trademark license.
2020-10-25T05:09:28Z mdhughes: Some of us are still pissed off that SUN and SGI aren't selling us nice workstations anymore, but Apple does OK.
2020-10-25T05:09:39Z Zipheir: aeth: Quite right about shell scripts, at least Bourne-derivatives.
2020-10-25T05:10:08Z mdhughes: There's a lot more than that. Linux will never qualify as a real UNIX no matter what you do to it.
2020-10-25T05:10:25Z Zipheir: aeth: systemd service files are just fine.  The problem is the sprawling system of interdependent tools which ignore 90% of POSIX and existing utilities.
2020-10-25T05:10:45Z aeth: mdhughes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EulerOS
2020-10-25T05:10:51Z Zipheir: "real UNIX"?
2020-10-25T05:10:59Z aeth: mdhughes: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_UNIX_Specification#EulerOS
2020-10-25T05:11:04Z aeth: quite literally, all you need to do is pay money
2020-10-25T05:11:20Z aeth: It's in the RHEL family, too, so RHEL could be a UNIX if it wanted to, but Linux tends to be a better brand these days.
2020-10-25T05:12:03Z aeth: it probably messes with some of the defaults to make things likely to break, though.
2020-10-25T05:12:06Z Zipheir: If it's got open(), read(), write(), and pipes, it's probably reasonable to call it a UNIX.
2020-10-25T05:12:29Z Zipheir: Oh yes, and if it spells "create" without the trailing 'e'. :)
2020-10-25T05:13:56Z drakonis: real unix is such a weird distinction
2020-10-25T05:14:18Z aeth: And there used to be another, further down on that page. Again a RHEL clone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspur_K-UX
2020-10-25T05:14:43Z aeth: Pretty much the only living Unix is macOS at this point, so they'll stop bothering renewing their certification at some point.
2020-10-25T05:14:54Z drakonis: its an distinction that is no longer relevant these days
2020-10-25T05:15:10Z drakonis: you still have the bsd family, which is the only one that actively parades its "real unix" status
2020-10-25T05:15:16Z mdhughes: That really is a travesty. Looks from the data sheet like it just ignores half the standard, you can't use it as a real workstation.
2020-10-25T05:15:21Z Zipheir: "UNIX is not only dead, it's starting to smell really bad." (Rob Pike)
2020-10-25T05:15:58Z aeth: A "real workstation" these days is just an x86-64 machine with a lot of cores and RAM, and maybe with a good GPU, too.
2020-10-25T05:16:01Z Zipheir: POSIX is actually a meaningful distinction.
2020-10-25T05:16:08Z drakonis: posix is also very dead
2020-10-25T05:16:14Z aeth: Itanium was probably the last attempt for workstations to be different.
2020-10-25T05:16:15Z mdhughes: (admittedly, SunOS users said much the same thing about Solaris when it launched, but Solaris eventually caught up)
2020-10-25T05:16:31Z Zipheir: But you can't just send the POSIX folks a check to be called POSIX-compliant.
2020-10-25T05:16:36Z aeth: (I guess technically, POWER workstations still exist...)
2020-10-25T05:17:24Z Zipheir: drakonis: Unless you write only for one system, I have a hard time seeing how you can ignore POSIX.
2020-10-25T05:17:24Z drakonis: linux is very much diverging from posix now
2020-10-25T05:17:35Z drakonis: hmm
2020-10-25T05:17:52Z drakonis: which platforms are reasonably worth targeting now?
2020-10-25T05:17:58Z drakonis: linux, windows, mac?
2020-10-25T05:18:06Z aeth: A lot of people write to at least 2 of those, yes.
2020-10-25T05:18:07Z Zipheir: Linux is becoming the Chrome of kernels.
2020-10-25T05:18:15Z drakonis: has that reasonably changed in the past 20 years?
2020-10-25T05:18:28Z drakonis: is it?
2020-10-25T05:18:36Z aeth: Well, 20 years ago, people were using desktop FreeBSD a bit, and some of the workstation OSes were alive enough that you might support one
2020-10-25T05:18:44Z Zipheir: Slowly, but yeah.
2020-10-25T05:18:54Z drakonis: desktop freebsd is the silliest thought today
2020-10-25T05:18:56Z drakonis: still.
2020-10-25T05:18:56Z aeth: But these days, it's just at least 2 of Linux, Windows, and Mac. You might still support BSD, but only for server (not client) software
2020-10-25T05:19:17Z Zipheir: FreeBSD works just fine on a desktop, like many of the BSDs.
2020-10-25T05:19:18Z drakonis: despite some folks on those circles pushing for it
2020-10-25T05:19:59Z aeth: Linux+Mac = you only want a Unix-like. Windows+Mac = you only want commercial OSes. Linux+Windows = you don't want to put up with Apple's rules/restrictions/oddities.
2020-10-25T05:20:12Z Zipheir: drakonis: If you're going to say it's a silly thought, you may want to make an argument against it, as well.
2020-10-25T05:20:15Z aeth: Linux+Windows+Mac = you cover "everyone"
2020-10-25T05:20:47Z drakonis: Zipheir: the general userbase is very server centric and makes very little effort to exist in any meaningful way outside of its niche
2020-10-25T05:21:06Z mdhughes: I'm trying to ship my software on Mac, Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, may make a RasPi build just because I can.
2020-10-25T05:21:08Z Zipheir: aeth: Or pay for an XCode account, or whatever is required these days.
2020-10-25T05:21:24Z aeth: Zipheir: right. It could just mean that you don't want to buy a Mac Mini just to export your project to Apple
2020-10-25T05:21:29Z drakonis: rpi builds are debian arm builds anyways
2020-10-25T05:21:32Z Zipheir: drakonis: "meaningful" is rather a weasel word.
2020-10-25T05:21:46Z mdhughes: Windows is insane. I sorta knew that, but trying to do anything useful on it is impossible.
2020-10-25T05:22:02Z drakonis: let me expand on that
2020-10-25T05:22:21Z drakonis: people still get a bit weird about the existence of desktop friendly freebsd spins
2020-10-25T05:22:25Z aeth: Windows is just so... bare. It ships with nothing. In part 2 decades of antitrust concerns, in part trying to sell you VisualStudio and/or Office.
2020-10-25T05:22:31Z mdhughes: If you're just making native software, you don't need to pay for anything. Free Xcode in the Mac App Store, or use clang from MacPorts.
2020-10-25T05:22:42Z aeth: (and Windows 10 is worse because they removed stuff like solitaire and make you download adware from the Windows Store)
2020-10-25T05:23:08Z drakonis: rather
2020-10-25T05:23:13Z drakonis: it is extremely goddamn dated
2020-10-25T05:23:43Z mdhughes: I have a "free" dev VM of Windows 10, which expires every 2 months. Seems to ship with all the tools they use, but it's ridiculous. Setting env vars for the shell is a Windows 95-era tool.
2020-10-25T05:23:45Z Zipheir: "dated" doesn't mean much out of context.
2020-10-25T05:23:46Z drakonis: its like traveling to 20 years ago when desktops were still rarities and unixes still ran primarily on servers
2020-10-25T05:23:58Z Zipheir: In what way, specifically?
2020-10-25T05:24:37Z Zipheir: aeth: What's next, no Paint??
2020-10-25T05:24:43Z drakonis: they actually removed paint
2020-10-25T05:24:49Z Zipheir: Heresy.
2020-10-25T05:25:00Z drakonis: oh no they changed their minds
2020-10-25T05:25:04Z drakonis: https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/23/18512247/microsoft-paint-windows-10-app-comments
2020-10-25T05:25:08Z aeth: You basically have to buy software, or download random freeware off of Google like it's 2001 and hope it's not malware.
2020-10-25T05:25:13Z aeth: It's so weird.
2020-10-25T05:25:55Z aeth: (And if the Windows Store is anything like Android's/iOS's stores, then it's just an illusion of security, anyway.)
2020-10-25T05:25:59Z mdhughes: ... Spinning up the VM to look for paint.
2020-10-25T05:26:37Z drakonis: Zipheir: if i ran an older freebsd from a decade ago for a year then tried running a new release, i wouldn't need to learn anything new
2020-10-25T05:26:40Z drakonis: its the same goddamn shit
2020-10-25T05:26:48Z drakonis: it doesnt change
2020-10-25T05:26:59Z drakonis: it generally feels like it is the same as it ever was
2020-10-25T05:27:02Z Zipheir: drakonis: What, specifically, do you think needs to change?
2020-10-25T05:27:04Z aeth: Zipheir: Can you even game on desktop FreeBSD? These days, desktop Linux can play about 1/3 of PC games natively and can emulate almost all of the rest, unless it has DRM/anticheat that gets in the way (probably by requiring a rootkit)
2020-10-25T05:27:23Z drakonis: aeth: they're trying to make steam run on the linux compatibility layer lol
2020-10-25T05:28:04Z drakonis: Zipheir: have some reason to use freebsd that isnt just on servers lol
2020-10-25T05:28:15Z aeth: drakonis: so if you wanted to play, say, Dark Souls or something, you'd have to pretend to be Linux pretending to be Windows, then?
2020-10-25T05:28:19Z drakonis: yes
2020-10-25T05:28:27Z Zipheir: drakonis: That's a very vague argument.
2020-10-25T05:28:29Z drakonis: alternatively just run wine
2020-10-25T05:28:36Z drakonis: i think they have it working to some degree?
2020-10-25T05:28:48Z drakonis: proton probably wont work very well
2020-10-25T05:29:06Z aeth: so it's basically where Linux was 10 years ago...
2020-10-25T05:29:11Z mdhughes: It has something called "Paint 3D", which is not as friendly as the old MS Paint.
2020-10-25T05:29:24Z drakonis: Zipheir: a good reason to run it as a development machine that isnt going to be the same old tired argument where jails is a proper replacement for linux's containres
2020-10-25T05:29:25Z drakonis: containers
2020-10-25T05:30:02Z drakonis: people seem to believe that jails is better than whatever abstraction built on top of linux to do containers (docker/podman/lxc)
2020-10-25T05:30:03Z mdhughes: Literally 3/4 of the app is toolbars, 1/4 left for the canvas. I had to fiddle with the tool settings to get a pencil.
2020-10-25T05:30:05Z Zipheir: Many users without experience using a CLI consider them "dated", i.e. "bad", without understand how expressive a programming-language-based interface to a system can be, compared to WIMP interfaces.
2020-10-25T05:30:15Z drakonis: that's not what i mean
2020-10-25T05:30:26Z drakonis: dear god
2020-10-25T05:30:32Z drakonis: i use the CLI on a daily basis
2020-10-25T05:30:40Z drakonis: this has nothing to do with the CLI being dated
2020-10-25T05:30:46Z drakonis: this was never in question
2020-10-25T05:30:49Z Zipheir: I use that as an example.
2020-10-25T05:31:03Z drakonis: i'm running linux right now and i feel entirely uncompelled to use freebsd
2020-10-25T05:31:10Z drakonis: because NixOS exists and is absolutely grand
2020-10-25T05:31:19Z aeth: Zipheir: CLI aren't dated because they're CLI, they're dated because the way to access it is by pretending to be a DEC terminal from the 1980s.
2020-10-25T05:31:41Z Zipheir: OK, but that's quite a different proposition from "FreeBSD doesn't exist meaningfully..." etc..
2020-10-25T05:31:42Z drakonis: i cannot get something equivalent on freebsd because there's no push to grow
2020-10-25T05:31:45Z aeth: In the 1990s everyone thought GUIs were the way forward, and because of that, we're stuck in the 80s with CLI
2020-10-25T05:32:08Z drakonis: we're definitely moving in circles
2020-10-25T05:32:15Z Zipheir: aeth: Terminals are certainly very dated.
2020-10-25T05:32:33Z drakonis: this isnt some kind of standoff
2020-10-25T05:32:33Z Zipheir: aeth: IMHO Plan9 did the right thing in dumping all the terminal driver stuff.
2020-10-25T05:32:59Z drakonis: okay so, my issue with freebsd will always be that there is no drive to grow
2020-10-25T05:33:01Z drakonis: it is stagnant
2020-10-25T05:33:19Z mdhughes: I am not going to run a remote graphical desktop just to log in and admin my servers.
2020-10-25T05:33:21Z drakonis: they created a bunch of things 20 years ago and have been sitting on them like it is the apex of OS design
2020-10-25T05:33:27Z Zipheir: drakonis: No.  It seems that you were making a general claim that BSDs aren't useful, without any real rationale for that claim.
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2020-10-25T05:34:03Z aeth: mdhughes: no, but I bet you'd be able to have a much better text protocol in 2020
2020-10-25T05:34:05Z drakonis: i did not say they arent useful, i have said that they do not meaningfully exist in today's computer space
2020-10-25T05:34:10Z mdhughes: And the CLI hasn't been stagnant.
2020-10-25T05:34:21Z drakonis: they're there but they dont make a splash
2020-10-25T05:34:22Z Zipheir: drakonis: And I still can't figure out what that means.
2020-10-25T05:34:31Z drakonis: it means that they're not relevant
2020-10-25T05:34:43Z drakonis: that does not equate not being useful
2020-10-25T05:34:43Z Zipheir: To whom?
2020-10-25T05:34:57Z drakonis: they still have an userbase
2020-10-25T05:35:03Z drakonis: niche as it might
2020-10-25T05:35:05Z mdhughes: iTerm2 is ridiculously powerful on the front end, I don't have anything this good on Linux. And then on my servers, I run screen because I'm old, but tmux has new capabilities, and zsh because bash is an insecure pile of crap.
2020-10-25T05:35:05Z drakonis: but it exists
2020-10-25T05:35:07Z aeth: mdhughes: CLI has absolutely been stagnant. Every time someone tries to make a significantly better shell, it fails to catch on... probably because you'd need to make a better terminal at the same time and because shell scripting itself is a hard problem because you have to both have a scripting language and a one-line-interactive-use language
2020-10-25T05:35:20Z aeth: mdhughes: the best development most of us have is zsh+tmux
2020-10-25T05:35:33Z aeth: Which, I mean, you sort of mentioned as I was typing
2020-10-25T05:35:33Z Zipheir: zsh is just bash is just sh.
2020-10-25T05:35:49Z mdhughes: No. zsh is ksh but better. bash is a disease.
2020-10-25T05:35:51Z Zipheir: It has nothing on scsh.
2020-10-25T05:36:01Z aeth: zsh is an incremental improvement over bash, and is what we should have been using in 1990 (when it first came out, interestingly enough)
2020-10-25T05:36:59Z Zipheir: drakonis: So the argument is that FreeBSD is not popular?
2020-10-25T05:37:13Z drakonis: whenever someone writes code, they dont go "oh yeah i better include the bsds on my initial release"
2020-10-25T05:37:21Z Zipheir: I guess that's it, then.
2020-10-25T05:37:22Z drakonis: they have limited appeal
2020-10-25T05:37:24Z drakonis: niche
2020-10-25T05:37:27Z drakonis: Zipheir: uh sure
2020-10-25T05:37:32Z drakonis: but its not just "not popular"
2020-10-25T05:37:38Z aeth: drakonis: pretty much the only reason to support BSD is when a BSD user first complains about it being broken
2020-10-25T05:37:40Z Zipheir: Well, this is #scheme.  Popularity is a very serious concern here!
2020-10-25T05:37:42Z mdhughes: OH NO a stable, reliable server OS isn't super popular with videogamers and script kiddies!
2020-10-25T05:37:50Z drakonis: mdhughes: lmao
2020-10-25T05:37:51Z mdhughes: Oh, except that every Playstation is a BSD machine.
2020-10-25T05:37:52Z drakonis: c'mon
2020-10-25T05:38:03Z drakonis: a bsd machine that you dont really access the bsd innards as a user
2020-10-25T05:38:05Z drakonis: also
2020-10-25T05:38:11Z drakonis: people ran linux on it after hacking it, but not freebsd :V
2020-10-25T05:38:13Z mdhughes: And Netflix runs BSD, so 1/3 of Internet traffic is BSD. Also many porn sites, so there's the other 1/3.
2020-10-25T05:38:16Z drakonis: oh the irony
2020-10-25T05:38:24Z aeth: mdhughes: we're talking about desktop BSD
2020-10-25T05:38:32Z aeth: a server OS being used for server stuff... OK
2020-10-25T05:38:34Z drakonis: desktop bsd also includes developer bsd
2020-10-25T05:38:56Z mdhughes: I'm not. I don't care about desktops that aren't Mac, maybe Haiku.
2020-10-25T05:39:01Z drakonis: netflix runs bsd only for CDNs
2020-10-25T05:39:03Z aeth: I think the main consumerish use for BSD right now is NAS... for whatever reason, it seems to be huge in this niche
2020-10-25T05:39:05Z drakonis: the rest is linux
2020-10-25T05:39:17Z drakonis: linux in the cloud bsd in the cdn
2020-10-25T05:39:50Z drakonis: its not like i dont know the places it is used in
2020-10-25T05:41:00Z Zipheir: I find OpenBSD a very fun programming environment, for the most part.
2020-10-25T05:41:04Z drakonis: freebsd is just really goddamn unappealing for the majority of developer machines
2020-10-25T05:41:32Z Zipheir: Existential claim: There is a least one user of a BSD who is not contacting the machine to download porn, etc.
2020-10-25T05:41:49Z Zipheir: ... by some standard, presumably drakonis's.
2020-10-25T05:43:00Z drakonis: hah
2020-10-25T05:43:15Z Zipheir: In any case, it's silly to talk about what is appealing or relevant or any other predicate which is a matter of opinion without making it clear *who* is the opiner.
2020-10-25T05:43:35Z drakonis: ha
2020-10-25T05:43:37Z drakonis: sure
2020-10-25T05:43:41Z mdhughes: "McDonald's is the most popular food! Your steak dinner must be terrible because nobody uses it!"
2020-10-25T05:43:54Z drakonis: hahaha that's not the best comparison
2020-10-25T05:44:08Z mdhughes: Well, true. McDonald's is much less revolting than Linux.
2020-10-25T05:44:16Z drakonis: wow rude
2020-10-25T05:44:35Z mdhughes: And you're less likely to become a bloated waddling blob eating McD's.
2020-10-25T05:44:39Z Zipheir: <Insert "Linux is communism" joke here>
2020-10-25T05:44:52Z drakonis: psh
2020-10-25T05:45:22Z Zipheir: Don't eat Linux kernels.  If you must, stick to the pre-4.0 versions, since it gained a lot of bulk around then.
2020-10-25T05:45:36Z mdhughes: Linux is like a failed Iron Curtain Communist state. (I'd pick an example state, but most of them have recovered)
2020-10-25T05:46:36Z mdhughes: They got "ideology", and it bankrupted them, and now there's some kind of business, but they're still a mess.
2020-10-25T05:46:43Z Zipheir: Numerically speaking, it's pretty damn widespread at the moment.
2020-10-25T05:47:08Z mdhughes: Again, McD's. 100 billion served.
2020-10-25T05:47:14Z Zipheir: Ironically, the kernel devs were never ideological enough for the GNU folks.
2020-10-25T05:48:35Z drakonis: ha
2020-10-25T05:48:37Z drakonis: i've heard it
2020-10-25T05:50:08Z Zipheir: The really disappointing thing is how few new OSs there are.  Everything is just some variation on UNIX or NT, I guess.
2020-10-25T05:50:31Z Zipheir: We need to bring back kernel hacking.
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2020-10-25T05:50:53Z drakonis: well
2020-10-25T05:50:56Z drakonis: you got fuchsia now
2020-10-25T05:51:02Z drakonis: genode
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2020-10-25T05:52:50Z drakonis: i guess you just havent been keeping up
2020-10-25T05:53:16Z lockywolf: I am amused by Americans believing a steak is a high-society food.
2020-10-25T05:53:25Z lockywolf: as opposed to mcdonalds
2020-10-25T05:53:58Z drakonis: lol
2020-10-25T05:54:18Z drakonis: steak isnt high class food lol
2020-10-25T05:54:22Z mdhughes: I feel sad for people who can't get steak because they built over all their land.
2020-10-25T05:54:24Z drakonis: americans lol
2020-10-25T05:54:44Z mdhughes: It's not high-society, it's good, as opposed to garbage.
2020-10-25T05:55:08Z lockywolf: I feel sad for people who are still bound to their land, as if it is still the 19th century.
2020-10-25T05:55:25Z mdhughes: "bound to"? We're not serfs, we own land.
2020-10-25T05:55:42Z lockywolf: or it owns you ;)
2020-10-25T05:55:59Z Zipheir: drakonis: I hadn't heard of Fuchsia, thanks.
2020-10-25T05:56:27Z Zipheir: I guess very different projects show up in discussion with functional-oriented programmers.
2020-10-25T05:57:03Z Zipheir: No idea why people keep writing kernels in C++.
2020-10-25T05:57:20Z lockywolf: Zipheir, which language would you prefer?
2020-10-25T05:57:25Z lockywolf: lisp?
2020-10-25T05:57:43Z Zipheir: Scheme, Haskell, SML, Prolog, ...
2020-10-25T05:58:01Z drakonis: isnt haskell written in uhhh
2020-10-25T05:58:05Z drakonis: c++ under the hood?
2020-10-25T05:58:09Z Zipheir: English?  Yes.
2020-10-25T05:58:16Z drakonis: ghc that is
2020-10-25T05:58:21Z Zipheir: Nope.
2020-10-25T05:58:35Z Zipheir: LLVM is C++, but that's an optional GHC backend.
2020-10-25T05:58:47Z drakonis: hm its self hosted but has C in it
2020-10-25T05:59:00Z drakonis: neat really
2020-10-25T06:00:29Z drakonis: shouldnt be surprising though
2020-10-25T06:00:32Z Zipheir: We don't see ideas like the OSs the Fifth Generation project developed in 80s, which were relational all the way down to the hardware. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer
2020-10-25T06:01:10Z drakonis: well, it is being done now
2020-10-25T06:01:14Z drakonis: on a hardware level
2020-10-25T06:01:30Z drakonis: which is very nice anyways
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2020-10-25T06:02:08Z aeth: Zipheir: because they failed
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2020-10-25T06:02:22Z Zipheir: Hardware with performance measured in LIPS (logical inferences per second)?
2020-10-25T06:02:41Z drakonis: ah, well, no.
2020-10-25T06:02:46Z Zipheir: aeth: They didn't, at least at the hardware and OS level.
2020-10-25T06:03:06Z drakonis: that looks like uh
2020-10-25T06:03:13Z Zipheir: aeth: What failed was the extremely ambitious side of the project: natural language and image-based interfaces.
2020-10-25T06:03:13Z drakonis: complicated to use for programming
2020-10-25T06:03:45Z drakonis: appears to be extremely specific hardware
2020-10-25T06:03:56Z Zipheir: (I'm reading the Feigenbaum & Shrobe report on the project now.  It's fascinating stuff.
2020-10-25T06:04:25Z aeth: As CPUs keep piling on more and more cores, I wouldn't be surprised if GPU compute dies by 2030. Of course, Nvidia and AMD both have defenses against this now that Nvidia bought ARM.
2020-10-25T06:04:38Z Zipheir: It was a fully relational, logic-programming-based, fully parallel vision of computing.
2020-10-25T06:05:23Z aeth: We're doing parallel computing not because we want to do parallel computing, but because we started losing out on the major single core performance improvements we used to have.
2020-10-25T06:05:40Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-10-25T06:05:50Z drakonis: intel has been moving into building their own GPUs as well
2020-10-25T06:05:57Z drakonis: nvidia itself is a complex matter though
2020-10-25T06:06:11Z drakonis: as they're going to find a way to fuck up arm
2020-10-25T06:06:16Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, we're still stuck with Von Neumann languages, so parallel programming sucks.
2020-10-25T06:06:17Z aeth: If I have to program a 10 core machine with per-core performance p or a 1 core machine with performance 9p, I will prefer the latter, and the 9p serial machine might actually outperform the 10p parallel machine, while being way easier to program, too. Even if the domain is parallelizable.
2020-10-25T06:06:54Z aeth: We're winding up with 8+ cores because we're just not getting fast single-cores anymore.
2020-10-25T06:07:04Z Zipheir: Physics is a harsh mistress.
2020-10-25T06:07:38Z aeth: More materials science than physics. A switch from silicon might cause a major per-core performance improvement, but it's currently too expensive to do.
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2020-10-25T06:08:07Z aeth: It's hard enough to run a profitable fab already.
2020-10-25T06:08:17Z drakonis: the switch away from silicon is going to take years though
2020-10-25T06:09:04Z drakonis: would expect it to herald the beginning of a major hardware redesign
2020-10-25T06:10:04Z aeth: under the hood, maybe, but we'll probably mostly stick to x86-64 and ARM because that's where the software is.
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2020-10-25T06:12:53Z drakonis: anyhow
2020-10-25T06:12:56Z drakonis: i think i should sleep
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2020-10-25T06:14:41Z Zipheir: drakonis: 'Night.
2020-10-25T06:14:47Z aeth: good night
2020-10-25T06:15:33Z aeth: On my earlier point about GPU vs CPU compute, I wouldn't be surprised if the Xeon Phi is seen as ahead of its time if manycore CPUs with normal architectures like x86-64 do wind up taking over the role GPUs currently fill...
2020-10-25T06:16:01Z aeth: Of course, that doesn't change that it couldn't compete in the 2010s vs 2010s GPUs
2020-10-25T06:16:47Z aeth: I don't think we'll see future parallel platforms as relational ones, though
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2020-10-25T08:53:47Z lockywolf: the spectre of 9p still lingers
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2020-10-25T10:07:26Z wasamasa: is there a git repo of the srfi documents plus sample implementations?
2020-10-25T10:07:51Z wasamasa: I've downloaded a non-git bundle of them
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2020-10-25T10:27:08Z amirouche: wasamasa: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/
2020-10-25T10:28:10Z wasamasa: hm, guess I'll have to write a stupid shell script
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2020-10-25T10:43:56Z wasamasa: wish github could sort these by name instead of latest commit or whatever
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2020-10-25T11:44:29Z jcowan: wasamasa: You can get a tarball of them all: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi.tgz
2020-10-25T11:44:40Z wasamasa: no git or sample code though :P
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2020-10-25T11:45:40Z jcowan: It does include the sample code.
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2020-10-25T12:01:35Z jcowan: for above discussion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
2020-10-25T12:01:57Z jcowan: Also, the obvious language to write a kernel in nowadays is Ada: it is a real-time embedded system, which is what Ada was designed for.
2020-10-25T12:18:49Z mdhughes: So first, write an Ada compiler on some known platform… I haven't been able to find one that works.
2020-10-25T12:19:00Z mdhughes: (and is free, because I'm cheap, not because I'm FOSS)
2020-10-25T12:21:06Z jcowan: What's wrong with gnat?
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2020-10-25T13:00:39Z mdhughes: At least in macports it complains it's missing some other tool.
2020-10-25T13:01:03Z mdhughes: https://mdhughes.tech/2019/07/02/y-c/
2020-10-25T13:01:39Z wasamasa: I wrote a database querying version using both sqlite and json walking to establish upper and lower time bounds
2020-10-25T13:02:11Z wasamasa: the difference is a factor of 20x
2020-10-25T13:02:28Z wasamasa: curious towards which side nstore will fall
2020-10-25T13:03:02Z wasamasa: I've also written down a list of things to do before I can even use the sample implementation and it sure does look like yak shaving :D
2020-10-25T13:03:37Z wasamasa: srfi 168, 167, 173, 158, 146, 128
2020-10-25T13:03:43Z wasamasa: and if I'm unlucky 125 as well
2020-10-25T13:04:29Z wasamasa: oh wait, 128 is already there
2020-10-25T13:04:35Z wasamasa: that leaves five
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2020-10-25T13:08:18Z wasamasa: bonus: a persistent storage
2020-10-25T13:11:59Z wasamasa: actually, the sample implementation also relies on 145
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2020-10-25T13:21:33Z ski: i don't see how `.1' being the same as `1.' would make sense
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2020-10-25T14:08:34Z jcowan: ski: I believe the point is that "1." means different things in Scheme and CL for hysterical raisins.
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2020-10-25T14:49:02Z ski: hm, ok
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2020-10-25T14:54:47Z mdhughes: SBCL: (/ 1. 2) => 1/2  Scheme: (/ 1. 2) => 0.5
2020-10-25T14:56:17Z mdhughes: SBCL: (/ 1.0 2) => 0.5  Scheme: (/ 1 2) => 1/2
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2020-10-25T14:59:18Z Zipheir: Weird.  I guess SBCL just ignores the trailing point, while that Scheme treats is as .0.
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2020-10-25T15:07:18Z Blukunfando: If (/ 1 2) is 1/2, shouldn’t (. 1 0) be 1.0?
2020-10-25T15:10:41Z Zipheir: In a world of pure syntax...
2020-10-25T15:11:20Z bitwiz: (cons 1 0) => (1 . 0)
2020-10-25T15:11:50Z cer0: lol
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2020-10-25T15:22:00Z jcowan: Alas, we are not allowed to abuse . in this fashion.  Indeed, in earlier Lisps it was perfectly correct to write (A.B) instead of (A . B).
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2020-10-25T15:34:26Z Zipheir: Dotted-pair notation is pretty gross in general, although it's still essential for procedure definitions.
2020-10-25T15:35:48Z jcowan: It is because procedures that accept a variable number of arguments get those arguments in a list, which is annoyingly restrictive.  Except for that one point and the use of booleans (which is inevitable), Scheme-the-language could be implemented with literally any consistent set of datatypes.
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2020-10-25T15:36:15Z jcowan: (by which I mean that it would make no sense to have vectors without numbers, e.g.)
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2020-10-25T15:44:40Z Zipheir: jcowan: How does that relate to lambda lists?  I'm not able to make sense of that final point.
2020-10-25T15:46:11Z jcowan: Lambda lists are purely compile-time, and in principle a Scheme compiler could be written in any language whether it had lists as a data structure or not. But the existence of variable-adic procedures means that lists *must* exist as a run-time structure.
2020-10-25T15:46:57Z jcowan: This is not true of any of Scheme's other data structures.
2020-10-25T15:49:30Z jcowan: I specced a small Scheme subset once with only doubles and vectors of doubles; necessarily there were no variable-adic procedures
2020-10-25T15:55:24Z jcowan: Later I decided that ints were useful too, because double->int casting is slow.
2020-10-25T15:55:36Z Zipheir: jocawn: Thanks, that all makes sense now.
2020-10-25T15:55:41Z Zipheir: *jcowan
2020-10-25T15:56:06Z Zipheir: I do recall reading Olin's SRFI 1 comment rants about the inefficiency of argument lists.
2020-10-25T15:56:54Z jcowan: s/variable-adic/variadic/g
2020-10-25T15:58:08Z jcowan: There's an allocation inefficiency, and there is also the danger of a variadic procedure trying to recurse on part of its arglist, like (apply proc (cdr args)).  Such variadic recursion looks O(n) but is actually O(n^2) due to the hidden copying.
2020-10-25T15:58:52Z Zipheir: "Variable-adic" seems quite descriptive of the situation with Scheme's variadic procedures.  There's always some single invisible list structure mediating between the procedure and its arguments.
2020-10-25T15:59:06Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-10-25T16:00:31Z Zipheir: (Side note: You get a picture of exactly how grumpy a programmer Olin is when you realize that the *style sheet* of SRFI 1 contains comment rants about how bad Web browsers are.)
2020-10-25T16:00:32Z Riastradh: jcowan: The important cases of double->int casting are no longer slow on modern hardware, thanks to the AArch64 FJCVTZS instruction!
2020-10-25T16:01:06Z Riastradh: (floating-point javascript convert to signed fixed-point, rounding toward zero)
2020-10-25T16:01:20Z Zipheir: Perfectly obscurely clear.
2020-10-25T16:01:32Z Riastradh: It computes the n>>>0 operator in JavaScript.
2020-10-25T16:02:19Z Zipheir: (The instruction name, I mean.)
2020-10-25T16:02:39Z jcowan chuckles
2020-10-25T16:02:54Z Riastradh: Totally clear, F consistently stands for floating-point instructions, J is consistently Javascript (for the one instruction with J in its name), CVT means convert, Z means zero to which things are rounded, and S means signed!
2020-10-25T16:03:33Z jcowan: Does anyone who wants to manipulate large float64 vectors with high performance use ARM at present?
2020-10-25T16:03:40Z Riastradh: jcowan: yes
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2020-10-25T16:03:48Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I stand corrected.
2020-10-25T16:04:05Z Riastradh: Big aarch64 servers are cheaper than comparable big Intel servers at AWS.
2020-10-25T16:04:35Z Riastradh: Apple hardware will soon be all aarch64 these days.
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2020-10-25T16:06:30Z Riastradh: aarch64 is also a more fun architecture.  Writing MIT Scheme's aarch64 compiler back end was a breeze.
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2020-10-25T16:13:42Z jcowan: Where is your source for this AWS pricing information?
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2020-10-25T16:15:43Z jcowan: Okay, I see it.  The key is that A1 server types are aarch64.
2020-10-25T16:17:37Z Riastradh: A1/T4g/M6g/C6g/R6g; look up `Graviton' or `Graviton2'
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2020-10-25T16:26:54Z jcowan: Thanks.  The difference at the high end of memory is not whopping:  $77 vs $96 per diem for 512G
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2020-10-25T16:27:55Z jcowan: (reserved instances, R6g vs. R5, no locally attached storage, 20-25 Gbps network)
2020-10-25T16:28:11Z jcowan: s/reserved/on-demand
2020-10-25T16:29:43Z jcowan: But it's early days yet.
2020-10-25T16:30:37Z jcowan: Riastradh: How would you compare the aarch compiler, in terms of difficulty, with the mips one?
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2020-10-25T16:38:17Z Riastradh: Comparable, but the aarch64 one generates better code with less effort.
2020-10-25T16:39:21Z Riastradh: E.g., aarch64 has pre/post-indexed loads and stores, so stack push/pop and *free++ = new take half the instructions on aarch64 that they do on mips.
2020-10-25T16:40:59Z Riastradh: No need for clever delay slot handling (I think liar would just put nops in delay slots, so it wasn't very clever anyway).
2020-10-25T16:41:48Z Riastradh: aarch64 back end includes niceties like fma not present in mips.
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2020-10-25T17:24:50Z erkin: The MIT/GNU Scheme package in Arch Linux was finally fixed: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/65356
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2020-10-25T17:37:34Z jcowan: In short, a return to the Vax, which I suppose now counts as a RISC system.
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2020-10-25T18:01:54Z jcowan: I note that there is a kind of duality between flexvectors (ArrayLists) and gap buffers, if the flexvectors provide an offset so that they are quickly growable at each end.  In a gap buffer, the top and bottom parts hold the data and the middle part is empty, whereas in a flexvector the reverse is true.
2020-10-25T18:02:13Z jcowan: I don't see any useful generalizations coming out of this, but I'm not good at generalizations.
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2020-10-25T18:59:19Z amirouche: the funny thing about the story of where the word "bug" came from, is that the first software bug is not human made :o)
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2020-10-25T19:06:45Z wasamasa: so, srfi-173
2020-10-25T19:07:09Z wasamasa: why does the sample implementation split scheme-specific boilerplate and implementation, but doesn't do that for the test?
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2020-10-25T19:09:37Z amirouche: the question is : why there is no test.body.scm ?
2020-10-25T19:09:42Z wasamasa: yeah
2020-10-25T19:10:00Z wasamasa: it makes reusing the body easier, no more need to edit the test file
2020-10-25T19:10:00Z amirouche: that is mistake.
2020-10-25T19:10:32Z amirouche: At that time I was under the impression that all implementations would support R7RS the way it is specified.
2020-10-25T19:10:35Z amirouche: That is not a good reason.
2020-10-25T19:10:58Z wasamasa: I've ported srfi 145 and 173 so far
2020-10-25T19:10:58Z amirouche: most people use foo.body.scm and foo.sld
2020-10-25T19:11:08Z wasamasa: I don't care much about the names :>
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2020-10-25T19:11:46Z Zipheir: It's hard to figure out a naming system that works across Schemes.
2020-10-25T19:12:26Z Zipheir: CHICKEN wants <library>.scm, chibi wants components/of/library/name.sld, etc.
2020-10-25T19:12:33Z amirouche: I am stuck with a cffi bug :/
2020-10-25T19:13:01Z amirouche: Zipheir: that is because some will invent a library system stored in a non hierarchical database
2020-10-25T19:13:03Z amirouche hides
2020-10-25T19:13:28Z wasamasa: this is more about making maintenance easy
2020-10-25T19:13:39Z wasamasa: write your own boilerplate wrapper and (include "whatever.body.scm")
2020-10-25T19:13:40Z Zipheir: amirouche: "Do you know, Brain, that when you open your mouth strange sounds come out?" (Pinky)
2020-10-25T19:13:52Z wasamasa: so that you can replace whatever.body.scm with a new version and no need for editing it
2020-10-25T19:14:13Z amirouche: yes
2020-10-25T19:14:50Z amirouche: Zipheir: that is the reason I was given about not a strict specification of the library system
2020-10-25T19:15:23Z amirouche: I mean the file placement on the filesystem are not specified, because there might not spoon
2020-10-25T19:15:45Z amirouche: I mean: no filesystem ;)
2020-10-25T19:15:53Z Zipheir: It makes sense to not specify anything about file layout.
2020-10-25T19:16:32Z Zipheir: It's just that existing Schemes are perversely incompatible here, as everywhere else.
2020-10-25T19:17:42Z amirouche: yes
2020-10-25T19:19:56Z amirouche: I have a C pointer question: Say you have `FooBar ** object`, then `object` is an array of pointer?
2020-10-25T19:20:35Z amirouche: or an array of Foobar?
2020-10-25T19:20:55Z Zipheir: It's just a pointer to FooBar*.
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2020-10-25T19:22:51Z amirouche: It seems like a pointer to a pointer of FooBar, but there is an array somewhere..
2020-10-25T19:24:06Z Zipheir: If you mean a block of dynamically-allocated memory which object references and which can be indexed like an array, yes, assuming you've allocated it.
2020-10-25T19:24:35Z Zipheir: Each element would be of type FooBar*
2020-10-25T19:26:26Z amirouche: hmm, that is library that does that for me
2020-10-25T19:29:14Z ski: it could be a pointer to the first element of an array of pointers to the first element of `FooBar's
2020-10-25T19:29:30Z ski: er
2020-10-25T19:29:35Z ski: it could be a pointer to the first element of an array of pointers to the first element of arrays of `FooBar's
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2020-10-25T19:38:10Z amirouche: I can not believe I scored my C exam something along the line of 90% or 95% a decade ago
2020-10-25T19:38:40Z amirouche: ski: thanks!
2020-10-25T19:38:50Z Zipheir: Pointers trip up everyone.
2020-10-25T19:39:04Z amirouche: the exam was all about pointers
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2020-10-25T19:39:36Z ski: one can have actual pointers to arrays, as well
2020-10-25T19:40:03Z amirouche: Zipheir: by the way I figured the async thing is not useful for the search engine, it can even be dangerous, because when the mainthread is not busy, the worker threads might be busy, which means the mainthread even if idle can not take a new request.
2020-10-25T19:40:53Z ski: (like `void frob(size_t n,int (*pa)[n]);', e.g.)
2020-10-25T19:41:37Z Zipheir: amirouche: I started following the thread on schemecomm but haven't checked it in a while.
2020-10-25T19:42:13Z Zipheir: ski: Which standard allows that?
2020-10-25T19:42:25Z Zipheir: IIRC it's not in C99.
2020-10-25T19:45:54Z Zipheir: Ugh, my brain vitrifies when I try to read the C99 standard.  Or at least that's how it goes today.
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2020-10-25T20:02:25Z ski: Zipheir : hm, i don't recall. i've seen it mentioned in ##c
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2020-10-25T22:51:22Z wasamasa: ported the easy dependencies for nstore/okvs, that leaves the tricky ones
2020-10-25T22:51:41Z wasamasa: I don't understand mappings at all and why the normal/hash interfaces use two different underlying data structures
2020-10-25T22:52:50Z wasamasa: the normal one uses one that looks easier to port, but okvs uses the hash one
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2020-10-25T22:53:03Z wasamasa: like, what's the reason for that, speed?
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2020-10-25T22:55:35Z wasamasa: and the matching data structure being able to (not) utilize the extra hash function passed to the comparator?
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2020-10-25T23:00:35Z wasamasa: also, I just discovered that hash-table-walk in srfi-69 is the recommended one (with hash-table-for-each still being available) and srfi-125 reverses that situation
2020-10-25T23:00:36Z wasamasa: awesome
2020-10-25T23:01:23Z wasamasa: at least in CHICKEN the former holds
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2020-10-25T23:19:13Z wasamasa: my last thought for this night: what if srfis like nstore/okvs are just a front to make other scheme implementations support their dependencies
2020-10-25T23:19:44Z Riastradh: what if the srfi process is a front to keep schemers distracted from just implementing things and making them work
2020-10-25T23:20:19Z wasamasa: hey, I did all the useful work before delving into this
2020-10-25T23:20:48Z Riastradh: So, you're saying this isn't useful work?
2020-10-25T23:20:51Z wasamasa: I could stop now, but I've always been curious about how a non-java graph database could look like :D
2020-10-25T23:21:08Z wasamasa: it seems like excessive lego play
2020-10-25T23:21:27Z wasamasa: it's fun until you discover you're missing one very specific type of lego piece
2020-10-25T23:21:57Z Riastradh: ...how can we get stepping on a lego piece into this analogy
2020-10-25T23:28:04Z wasamasa: something useful and not too challenging would be submitting all the SRFI sample implementations with CHICKEN-specific code to the coop that aren't there yet
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2020-10-25T23:59:43Z Zipheir: wasamasa: How does it work these days?  Does one still need an SVN account, or are eggs hosted directly from <well-known repo site>?
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2020-10-26T00:13:37Z Zipheir: SRFI 146 in CHICKEN would be a Good Thing.  The (scheme hashmap) part is indeed the tricky part, if only because of the 69/125 mismatches.
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2020-10-26T00:21:57Z Zipheir: wasamasa: The SRFI document provides some explanation of the mapping/hashmap duality.  Mappings require that keys have an ordering, while hashmaps require only a hash function.
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2020-10-26T00:47:19Z Riastradh: Zipheir: duality?
2020-10-26T00:51:33Z Zipheir: Not that kind of duality.
2020-10-26T00:51:43Z Riastradh: which kind of duality?
2020-10-26T00:51:54Z Zipheir: The kind that you were not thinking of. :)
2020-10-26T00:53:03Z Riastradh: Seems like one should be called `ordered map' and the other should be called `hash map'.
2020-10-26T00:54:26Z Zipheir: I suppose "ordered-map-map" seemed awkward to the authors.
2020-10-26T00:54:50Z Riastradh: I ordered a map map to find the map I was looking for in the map store.
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2020-10-26T01:03:54Z Zipheir: In any case, I really like SRFI 146.  Marc and Arthur clearly put a lot of work into it.
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2020-10-26T01:22:11Z Zipheir: Interestingly, mappings/ordered maps perform better than hashmaps for string keys, at least when used in the SRFI 209 sample implementation.
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2020-10-26T02:11:59Z sm2n: amirouche, may want to check out https://cdecl.org/
2020-10-26T02:12:26Z sm2n: useful when you have a brainfart parsing C
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2020-10-26T07:35:05Z lockywolf: I've sold my soul to the company-mode map-restore.
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2020-10-26T07:53:06Z wasamasa: Riastradh: thanks, ordered/unordered map explains the need for different data structures
2020-10-26T07:53:43Z wasamasa: Zipheir: putting new eggs in the SVN repo is discouraged, just submit the URL to your egg-info file on IRC or mailing list
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2020-10-26T08:51:17Z amirouche: wasamasa: nstore needs an immutable hashmap, look into the procedure %from at https://git.io/JTKLD
2020-10-26T08:51:22Z amirouche: the hashmap is SEED
2020-10-26T08:51:32Z wasamasa: ah, so that's why HAMT over srfi-69
2020-10-26T08:53:34Z wasamasa: srfi-125 might work if copying is used to obtain an immutable hash map, but that's not guaranteed to work
2020-10-26T08:57:49Z wasamasa: another ghetto solution is alists :D
2020-10-26T08:58:14Z amirouche: yes you can use alist too
2020-10-26T08:58:23Z wasamasa: but that would kind of defeat the point
2020-10-26T08:58:32Z wasamasa: I want to have performance competitive with sqlite
2020-10-26T08:58:54Z amirouche: what do you plan to use for storage?
2020-10-26T08:59:04Z wasamasa: no real idea
2020-10-26T08:59:22Z wasamasa: so far the only key-value store I've used is dbm
2020-10-26T08:59:52Z amirouche: I recommend sqlite lsm extension, how to build it is documented at https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme/blob/master/Makefile#L9-L17
2020-10-26T08:59:58Z amirouche: dbm is not ordered IIRC
2020-10-26T09:00:14Z amirouche: there is also RocksDB but the API is convoluted
2020-10-26T09:00:20Z wasamasa: wait, so this is about replacing the okvs part?
2020-10-26T09:00:26Z amirouche: yes
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2020-10-26T09:00:48Z wasamasa: ah, so I could skip the part of porting the sample srfi-167 implementation entirely
2020-10-26T09:00:58Z amirouche: ah yes you can do that
2020-10-26T09:01:39Z wasamasa: there's a tokyocabinet egg in the coop, would that do the trick?
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2020-10-26T09:05:36Z wasamasa: there's also an old leveldb binding I could port to C5
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2020-10-26T09:07:24Z amirouche: wasamasa: you need tcbdbrange from https://dbmx.net/tokyocabinet/spex-en.html#tcbdbapi
2020-10-26T09:07:36Z amirouche: with b+tree backend
2020-10-26T09:09:27Z amirouche: wasamasa: leveldb works but is very slow
2020-10-26T09:09:55Z amirouche: wasamasa: also you would need to fix the fact that it takes string as arguments instead of bytevector IIRC
2020-10-26T09:10:26Z wasamasa: that's a problem in any case
2020-10-26T09:11:34Z amirouche: that is funny because every single distro say leveldb is fast.
2020-10-26T09:11:56Z wasamasa: yeah
2020-10-26T09:12:37Z wasamasa: anyway, some hacking is required
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2020-10-26T12:10:06Z jcowan: Zipheir: Ordered maps don't have to examine all of a candidate key, whereas hashmaps usually do, depending on the hash function.
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2020-10-26T14:36:08Z wasamasa: looking at (srfi 146 hash) and this is easily the most convoluted hash table insertion I've ever seen :D
2020-10-26T14:36:17Z wasamasa: it's all about reducing porting effort
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2020-10-26T14:46:01Z wasamasa: but yeah, seems like I can reuse most of that
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2020-10-26T15:07:26Z wasamasa: the sample implementation of (srfi 146) a bit less so
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2020-10-26T15:12:59Z wasamasa: but it doesn't require nearly as many srfis as dependency and perhaps I can replace the superceded srfi-121 with srfi-158
2020-10-26T15:13:42Z wasamasa: or is there some rule that sample implementations may only depend on srfis below them?
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2020-10-26T15:27:06Z Zipheir: Perhaps because they aren't hash-tables?
2020-10-26T15:29:08Z Zipheir: And yes, 121 should be superseded by 158.  IIRC SRFI 146 works with both.
2020-10-26T15:30:13Z Zipheir: s/works with both/works with either without modification/
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2020-10-26T15:32:38Z jcowan: No, there is no such rule.  In one case, a SRFI's *interface* depended on a SRFI with a higher number.
2020-10-26T15:33:19Z jcowan: Also, HAMTs aren't exactly a trivial algorithm anyway.
2020-10-26T15:37:36Z wasamasa: yeah, but it seems less effort to port and enhance an existing HAMT egg than porting all dependencies for the HAMT sample implementation
2020-10-26T15:37:50Z wasamasa: srfi-125 looks like the most annoying one of the bunch
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2020-10-26T15:43:11Z wasamasa: as it doesn't map cleanly to srfi-69 or does it
2020-10-26T15:43:34Z Zipheir: It's implemented as a thin layer on top of SRFI 69 in Chibi's version.
2020-10-26T15:43:49Z wasamasa: but wouldn't that defeat the purpose if you can't have immutable hash tables?
2020-10-26T15:43:54Z Zipheir: CHICKEN's 69 expects hash functions to take a bound argument, IIRC.
2020-10-26T15:45:02Z wasamasa: optionally, yes
2020-10-26T15:45:20Z Zipheir: Well, that's actualy in SRFI 69 itself.
2020-10-26T15:45:46Z wasamasa: same goes for a randimization toggle (which was presumably introduced for reproducible builds
2020-10-26T15:45:48Z wasamasa: )
2020-10-26T15:46:28Z Zipheir: Comparator hash functions just take a single argument, so there's the rub.
2020-10-26T15:48:04Z Zipheir: It would be good to find a way to fix this, since you can't do anything with comparator-hash-function using SRFI 69.
2020-10-26T15:48:59Z jcowan: I believe there is a shim for that problem
2020-10-26T15:49:27Z jcowan: (SRFI 69 hash functions expecting an argument)
2020-10-26T15:50:19Z wasamasa: I don't get it, what's the harm if there's a single required and a few optional arguments?
2020-10-26T15:50:36Z Zipheir: CHICKEN actually uses the bound argument.
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2020-10-26T15:50:56Z wasamasa: hum
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2020-10-26T15:51:27Z Zipheir: The SRFI 69 egg has a lot of hairy internal optimizations.
2020-10-26T15:52:01Z wasamasa: welp, so I'm back to implementing a foreign wrapper for okvs
2020-10-26T15:53:36Z Zipheir: Maybe it would be easier to use the portable SRFI 126 and 125 implementations.
2020-10-26T15:55:10Z jcowan: That's why SRFI 125 will use a native 126 if there is one, and if not, will use the sample 126 which will use a native 69 if there is one.
2020-10-26T15:56:40Z Zipheir: Ah.  So it's the same problem all over again.
2020-10-26T15:57:08Z Zipheir: Possibly.  I haven't tried it with CHICKEN.
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2020-10-26T16:00:34Z jcowan: thus maximizing the use of highly tuned implementation-specific code, while still working everywhere (because there is a fallback implementation of 69)
2020-10-26T16:02:48Z Zipheir: That makes perfect sense.
2020-10-26T16:03:18Z wasamasa: amirouche: I see you mention sophia in your files
2020-10-26T16:04:30Z wasamasa: amirouche: I've spotted this library long time ago and pondered writing a binding for it
2020-10-26T16:05:21Z amirouche: wasamasa: I never tested it
2020-10-26T16:05:54Z wasamasa: granted, I still don't understand the okvs concept and why range queries are such an important point there instead of an implementation detail
2020-10-26T16:06:46Z wasamasa: but from my options it seems like the easiest one to fully comprehend
2020-10-26T16:07:36Z amirouche: because okvs is ordered, range make sense. Because of the ordered nature, you can query everything that has a particular pattern "starting with" a given prefix, this allows to create subspace of keys.
2020-10-26T16:08:00Z amirouche: look for instance into morton code, it works with a range query
2020-10-26T16:08:16Z wasamasa: like table1. to find table1.bar, table1.baz and table1.foo?
2020-10-26T16:08:38Z Riastradh: wasamasa: The logic in the insertion might have been my fault.  A while back I think I suggested a kind of complicated callback API for doing an update that can decide whether to delete, replace, insert, or nothing, once the thing is found.
2020-10-26T16:08:39Z amirouche: yes for instance
2020-10-26T16:09:27Z Riastradh: In retrospect, the cost of all the closures, in denomination of GC pressure, probably outweighs the cost of just doing two lookup operations if you want to make that decision.
2020-10-26T16:09:50Z wasamasa: it's fine, I tend to do the opposite thing and overengineer elisp instead
2020-10-26T16:10:05Z wasamasa: thinking in terms of minimum amount of primitives is new to me
2020-10-26T16:10:23Z Riastradh: Here's some similar code: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/hash-trie.scm, https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/bb-tree.scm
2020-10-26T16:10:45Z Riastradh: (warning: the bb-tree code has a bad balancing criterion; it should be replaced by the much simpler logarithmic balancing criterion that MIT Scheme's wttree now uses)
2020-10-26T16:10:50Z Riastradh: (easy fix, just need round tuits)
2020-10-26T16:12:01Z jcowan: Those -search and -search! procedures are now found in many SRFIs.
2020-10-26T16:12:44Z Riastradh: welp
2020-10-26T16:13:02Z jcowan: No good deed goes unpunished, or bad deed unrewarded, eh?
2020-10-26T16:14:47Z wasamasa: a somewhat unrelated thing: does srfi-145 specify assert essentially?
2020-10-26T16:15:17Z wasamasa: if yes, why is it used for type checking arguments?
2020-10-26T16:15:35Z wasamasa: that's error handling, not something to be optimized away :D
2020-10-26T16:16:30Z jcowan: I assume you mean assume.
2020-10-26T16:16:49Z wasamasa: yes
2020-10-26T16:17:36Z jcowan: Assume is defined as "it is an error if the argument is false".  So the compiler can insert a check or assume that no checks are required.
2020-10-26T16:17:59Z jcowan: Assert (for which there is a pre-SRFI plus R6RS) forces an exception to be raised.
2020-10-26T16:18:51Z Riastradh: wait what
2020-10-26T16:19:29Z Riastradh: assert can be compiled away, no?
2020-10-26T16:19:36Z wasamasa: so it is different indeed and I can't define assume in terms of assert?
2020-10-26T16:19:59Z jcowan: Not in R6RS, no, unless you can prove that its argument is always true.
2020-10-26T16:20:30Z jcowan: You can define assume in terms of assert, or directly raise an error, or just expand it to (begin).
2020-10-26T16:20:43Z Riastradh: ...this is the opposite of the meaning of the name `assert' in every other language on the planet.
2020-10-26T16:20:50Z Riastradh: oy
2020-10-26T16:20:57Z jcowan: Talk to the R6RS committee.  I wasn't there
2020-10-26T16:22:06Z wasamasa: hm, perhaps I'll have to look into this fatal/non-fatal error thing first
2020-10-26T16:22:17Z gwatt: is it really the opposite? C, python, etc don't optimize away asserts
2020-10-26T16:22:36Z jcowan: An assert form is evaluated by evaluating <expression>. If <expression> returns a true value, that value is returned from the assert expression. If <expression> returns #f, an exception with condition types &assertion and &message is raised. The message provided in the condition object is implementation-dependent.
2020-10-26T16:22:37Z wasamasa: in C that's how assert is commonly defined
2020-10-26T16:22:50Z jcowan: so spake R6RS
2020-10-26T16:24:03Z wasamasa: > If the macro NDEBUG is defined at the moment <assert.h> was last included, the macro assert() generates no code, and hence does nothing at all.
2020-10-26T16:24:55Z Riastradh: gwatt: yes they do
2020-10-26T16:25:18Z jcowan: Quoth Python: In the current implementation (true from at least 2.0 to 3.9), the built-in variable __debug__ is True under normal circumstances, False when optimization is requested (command line option -O). The current code generator emits no code for an assert statement when optimization is requested at compile time.
2020-10-26T16:25:26Z Riastradh: gwatt: https://docs.python.org/3/reference/simple_stmts.html#the-assert-statement
2020-10-26T16:25:41Z gwatt: ah, hmm. ok
2020-10-26T16:26:01Z wasamasa: deferring the decision to a sufficiently smart compiler is so very scheme
2020-10-26T16:26:06Z jcowan: Of course in some circumstances -O would be short for --pessimize
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2020-10-26T16:27:48Z Zipheir: IIRC the author of SRFI 145 has requested that 'debug' be the default behavior, too.
2020-10-26T16:28:26Z Zipheir: I generally run Scheme code with -D debug when working on stuff.
2020-10-26T16:29:36Z Zipheir: If assert can't be removed by a compiler, why not just use `error'?  Or did R6 remove that?
2020-10-26T16:30:26Z wasamasa: because debug may change whether it's a fatal or non-fatal error apparently
2020-10-26T16:30:40Z wasamasa: which should only matter when catching errors, correct?
2020-10-26T16:36:02Z jcowan: wasamasa: Strictly there are no such things.  If you raise an error with raise-continuably, it may return to you.  If you raise it with raise, any attempt to return is trapped in the implementation of raise, which then raises a different exception.
2020-10-26T16:36:19Z jcowan: (Assume #f) is undefined behavior, period.
2020-10-26T16:36:20Z wasamasa: that doesn't make them less confusing
2020-10-26T16:38:01Z Zipheir: SRFI 145 suggests that (assume #f) should raise a non-continuable exception.
2020-10-26T16:38:06Z jcowan: Consider this program: "(define yes #f) (assume yes)".  The compiler is allowed to refuse to compile that program altogether, since its behavior is completely undefined.
2020-10-26T16:38:07Z Zipheir: At least that's my reading.
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2020-10-26T16:39:00Z jcowan: whereas "(define yes #f) (assert yes)" always raises an exception and so can be compiled into just (raise <something>).
2020-10-26T16:39:31Z jcowan: Not only does undefined behavior make demons fly out of your nose, in Scheme it can make them fly retroactively
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2020-10-26T16:39:44Z wasamasa: lol
2020-10-26T16:41:17Z jcowan: or even abandon the continuation back to the point where you decided to write such a thing in the first place.
2020-10-26T16:42:17Z jcowan: The same is true of simpler programs like "(/ 1 0)", unless exact division has been extended to return exact affine infinity
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2020-10-26T16:47:47Z wasamasa: is that the explanation for guile's terrible error handling ManDay keeps struggling with?
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2020-10-26T17:12:33Z jcowan: No idea.  But I'll say this: integrating a preexisting exception/condition system with the R6RS one is no small matter
2020-10-26T17:12:40Z jcowan: I think only Guile and Racket have even tried
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2020-10-26T17:24:12Z wasamasa: I'm looking at srfi-69 code again and the optional bound argument seems to always default to a hardcoded value
2020-10-26T17:24:21Z wasamasa: so I don't see the problems mentioned here
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2020-10-26T17:29:04Z Zipheir: Maybe it's an easy fix then.
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2020-10-26T20:24:48Z amirouche: wasamasa: assume in my code is meant to prevent programming errors, like assert does, but assert is not specified in R7RS
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2020-10-26T20:26:33Z jcowan: I have a simple pre-SRFI; it just needs an implementation
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2020-10-26T20:27:48Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/AssertionsWarnings.md
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2020-10-26T20:29:09Z Zipheir: Philip Wadler presented how this can work in a Hindley-Milner system pretty lucidly over 30 years ago: https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/class-letter/class-letter.txt
2020-10-26T20:29:10Z amirouche: maybe z-order curve is not a good example, since it requires a bit fiddling outside range query.
2020-10-26T20:29:18Z Zipheir: Sorry, wrong pipe.
2020-10-26T20:29:43Z amirouche: The good example is (uid, key) -> (value), where uid, key are in the key of the okvs, you can retrieve everything related to UID, using a range query.
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2020-10-26T20:43:19Z amirouche: another good example, maybe better, is when you have an integer as the key, say, the date of birth of a person, you can query for boomers.
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2020-10-26T20:47:27Z aeth: Is there one of those "falsehood programmers believe about..." articles for this? Because not everyone has a known date of birth.
2020-10-26T20:49:34Z aeth: hmm, nope, there's a "falsehoods programmers believe about time", but that doesn't include dates... and one on time zones, that's basically just time zones.
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2020-10-26T20:52:37Z Blukunfando: Can’t you get away with shaming those without a known date of birth into making one up on the spot?
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2020-10-26T20:54:12Z aeth: I guess anyone who has had to interact with computers without a known date of birth probably has a made up birthday at this point. You sometimes see them in places like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity_claims
2020-10-26T20:54:44Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if they're all over 100 at this point
2020-10-26T20:55:39Z aeth: But that's only because other people were bad programmers. :-)
2020-10-26T20:57:12Z aeth: You're probably far more likely to get a false date of birth in your system if someone signed up for your service as a kid when they technically shouldn't have been able to sign up. So that's another false thing about dates of birth. They can change (since the original might have been a lie).
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2020-10-26T21:22:24Z jcowan: In databases there is a difference between incorrect entries and truly mutable entries.  DOB is mutable only if it's wrong, whereas marital status is truly mutable.
2020-10-26T21:38:50Z wasamasa: amirouche: assert in C serves a different purpose, documenting assumptions made during programming so that you can figure out errors in your implementation
2020-10-26T21:38:58Z wasamasa: amirouche: they do not replace mandatory type checks
2020-10-26T21:39:16Z wasamasa: amirouche: because asserts can be elided for a release build, type checks cannot
2020-10-26T21:40:50Z wasamasa: amirouche: hence it's unfortunate the meaning changed in srfi-145 towards encouraging undefined behavior
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2020-10-26T21:51:00Z Blukunfando: By the way, everyone’s age in years and weight in kilograms fit in two decimal digits.
2020-10-26T21:51:52Z jcowan: Similarly there is a difference between "unknown" (Adam's birthday) and "no such thing" (Adam's father).
2020-10-26T21:59:40Z Blukunfando: On the other hand, the former can be a polite substitute for the latter.
2020-10-26T22:00:13Z Blukunfando: If you tell people their question is invalid, 1) they’ll probably refuse to process your answer, since it doesn’t fit the pattern they expect, and 2) if they grudgingly end up doing so, they’ll be pissed off.
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2020-10-27T04:19:48Z mdhughes: https://mdhughes.tech/2017/07/19/data-and-reality-william-kent/
2020-10-27T04:20:27Z mdhughes: Any time you're thinking about how to model ambiguous or missing data, go reread that book.
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2020-10-28T22:35:14Z rx_: how was the srfi website made?
2020-10-28T22:35:23Z rx_: its pretty nice
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2020-10-28T23:58:28Z jcowan: I don't know, I didn't do it.  I know there is very minimal JS and you can use it on a non-JS browser like Lynx.  If you are curious, send an email to editors@srfi.schemers.org; Arthur is very responsive and very friendly.
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2020-10-29T01:31:28Z lockywolf: when is splicing better than runtime insertion?
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2020-10-29T01:31:57Z lockywolf: `(a b ,c d) vs (list 'a 'b c 'd)
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2020-10-29T02:00:48Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-10-29T05:15:29Z Zipheir: lockywolf: Interesting question.  Quasiquoting is super useful in combination with pattern-matching, so hopefully it's efficient in most Schemes.
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2020-10-29T11:35:14Z mdhughes: I often find quasiquotes hard to read, but sometimes they're much terser than a complex tree of commands with a few constants in there. So: It depends?
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2020-10-29T12:59:40Z amirouche: hello #scheme :)
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2020-10-29T13:01:09Z amirouche blinks twice
2020-10-29T13:01:13Z amirouche: *_*
2020-10-29T13:01:36Z ManDay: yes
2020-10-29T13:01:50Z ManDay: I, am #scheme
2020-10-29T13:01:57Z ManDay: hello, user.
2020-10-29T13:02:16Z amirouche: SRFI-170 was finalized :D
2020-10-29T13:02:21Z amirouche: incredible
2020-10-29T13:03:02Z ManDay: wow, yeah
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2020-10-29T13:04:31Z amirouche: regarding quasiquote it really depends how smart is the expander
2020-10-29T13:05:20Z amirouche: because it can expand `(a b ,c d) into (cons* 'a 'b c (list d)) or (list 'a 'b c 'd)
2020-10-29T13:05:54Z amirouche: ManDay: how is the math going?
2020-10-29T13:06:20Z ManDay: good, doing some actual implementation right now. makes for a nice change heh
2020-10-29T13:06:27Z ManDay: thanks for asking :)
2020-10-29T13:09:09Z amirouche: do you plan to go commercial with this project?
2020-10-29T13:10:17Z ManDay: if i can while it stays foss, why not
2020-10-29T13:10:36Z ManDay: but that's a far away future... i have plenty of time to decide
2020-10-29T13:10:46Z ManDay: (and the world has plenty of ways to end until then...)
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2020-10-29T13:13:05Z wasamasa: with what project?
2020-10-29T13:13:14Z wasamasa: dulling guile's edge?
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2020-10-29T13:14:26Z amirouche: IIRC the project involves a new way to describe the world..
2020-10-29T13:19:48Z ManDay: lol, amirouche mind if I hire you as my PR manager
2020-10-29T13:20:07Z ManDay: wasamasa: no nothing guile or scheme related (other than that I do the prototyping in scheme)
2020-10-29T13:20:30Z ManDay: in fact, i think guile and i are somewhat becoming like on of those old couples you hear about... the ones who hate eachother but can't do without one another
2020-10-29T13:21:11Z ManDay: my tombstone, it shall only read:  )
2020-10-29T13:21:49Z wasamasa: lol
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2020-10-29T17:58:46Z duncanm: Riastradh: hey hey
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2020-10-29T19:21:49Z Riastradh: duncanm: derp derp
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2020-10-29T19:46:04Z duncanm: How goes? I feel like I've asked you the before, but is it documented how to build MIT Scheme from git on Linux/ARM64?
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2020-10-29T19:50:34Z Riastradh: duncanm: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/release.html
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2020-10-29T23:47:28Z Riastradh: duncanm: oh, FYI, I just broke the aarch64 compiler.
2020-10-29T23:49:47Z Riastradh: should be fixed now
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2020-10-30T16:13:42Z amirouche: last time I released arew scheme (https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme/) I got two feedbacks: a) what is it? b) where the nice documentation
2020-10-30T16:13:55Z amirouche: I am struggling with the first question: what is it?
2020-10-30T16:14:39Z amirouche: technically, it is two things 1) the r7rs libraries 2) a helper program to compile and execute scheme programs
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2020-10-30T17:55:59Z amirouche: nvm, I solved the fate of arew.
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2020-10-30T19:47:57Z jcowan: There should at least be a free sample of the book (if it's even in the book) giving the unique selling points of Arew.
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2020-10-30T19:56:00Z amirouche: jcowan: what should be in the book?
2020-10-30T19:56:27Z jcowan: "What makes this Scheme different from the 77 other Schemes on the 'fairly complete list'?"
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2020-10-30T20:05:41Z wasamasa: jcowan: regarding bottom scheme, what are "improper formals" when it comes to lambda?
2020-10-30T20:05:48Z wasamasa: jcowan: the (foo . bar) case or x?
2020-10-30T20:06:00Z jcowan: Both
2020-10-30T20:06:22Z jcowan: the first is an improper list of length 1, the second an improper list of length 0.
2020-10-30T20:06:29Z wasamasa: and "/ is not supported" in 6.2.5?
2020-10-30T20:06:37Z jcowan: No rational numbers.
2020-10-30T20:06:49Z wasamasa: is that mentioned in that section though?
2020-10-30T20:07:39Z jcowan: I don't mean that the function / is not supported, I mean that lexical syntax like 1/2 is not supported.
2020-10-30T20:08:30Z wasamasa: ah, <uinteger R> / <uinteger R>
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2020-10-30T20:14:40Z wasamasa: it is remarkable how many scheme features in r7rs I don't know of
2020-10-30T20:15:07Z jcowan: Really?  It's not that much bigger than R5RS, really
2020-10-30T20:15:20Z wasamasa: like specifying precision with a letter in the literal
2020-10-30T20:15:56Z jcowan: We made that optional, but in R[456]RS it's actually mandatory to accept it, even if the implementation makes no distinctions.
2020-10-30T20:16:35Z jcowan: It works in Chicken, in fact.
2020-10-30T20:17:05Z ecraven: was it r7rs or something else that allowed _ in numbers as a separator? 100_000_000?
2020-10-30T20:18:29Z jcowan: SRFI 169, not R7RS.  It will be voted on at the end of R7RS-large with other proposed lexical features (so that people only have to fix their `read` and `print` implementations once.
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2020-10-30T23:00:56Z Riastradh: oh hey I just found a 27-year-old bug in MIT Scheme
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2020-10-30T23:18:50Z Riastradh: huh
2020-10-30T23:27:53Z erkin: Nice
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2020-10-30T23:36:20Z aaaaaa: that should be a feature already
2020-10-30T23:36:23Z aaaaaa: a known one
2020-10-30T23:36:47Z aaaaaa: you shouldn't fix it
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2020-10-31T00:00:20Z Riastradh: Actually you're right, it's a 30-year-old feature which I broke 11 years ago.
2020-10-31T00:00:34Z Riastradh: grmble
2020-10-31T00:03:02Z Riastradh: Why would someone want a fixnum-sized logical right shift?
2020-10-31T00:03:25Z Riastradh: You can always get the same effect by AND'ing the result with an appropriate bit mask.
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2020-10-31T00:31:36Z aeth: thanks to our discussion the other day, I have maybe the second Scheme (if an incomplete Scheme counts) to actually print -nan.0 for -nan.0... https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/commit/1a4ab71b5d7a8c9f69e3c4ef6cdd00c473312116
2020-10-31T00:32:01Z Riastradh: yay
2020-10-31T00:32:06Z Riastradh: What about -nan.123?
2020-10-31T00:32:06Z aeth: although I'm not sure about Chicken because I can't have both Chicken and C# installed and some rare things need C# while I only need Chicken for... testing random things like what -nan.0 returns.
2020-10-31T00:32:36Z dTal: you can't have chicken and C# installed? whyever not?
2020-10-31T00:32:45Z Riastradh: Just install one or the other into a separate prefix?
2020-10-31T00:32:46Z aeth: dTal: conflict with csi
2020-10-31T00:32:53Z Riastradh: I do something like
2020-10-31T00:33:01Z Riastradh: /usr/local/chicken/$VERSION
2020-10-31T00:33:05Z aeth: Riastradh: yes, but then I have to compile one... Fedora's DNF doesn't do conflict resolution via optional prefix
2020-10-31T00:33:21Z aeth: I might compile it. I have to compile chibi and for years I had to compile Racket because Racket's apparently hard to package.
2020-10-31T00:33:42Z Riastradh: (csc)
2020-10-31T00:34:52Z aeth: Riastradh: As for -nan.123, the only extended syntax I have at the moment is the way to get short, single, double, and long floats, which fortunately matches CL's syntax. (1s0, 1f0, 1d0, 1l0, etc.) This is because it's hinted at as the way to do it in r7rs.pdf and because too much CL code uses single floats.
2020-10-31T00:36:25Z aeth: I currently use syntax like "+inf.0f0" to read/write the single float infinities and NaNs, which is different than Racket's way.
2020-10-31T00:37:01Z Riastradh: Also what about +snan.123?
2020-10-31T00:37:12Z aeth: That's also extended syntax.
2020-10-31T00:39:53Z aeth: Riastradh: is that in a SRFI? I don't think SRFI 144 covers syntax and that appears to be the main SRFI.
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2020-10-31T00:41:01Z aeth: It might be R6RS, but the main (mostly) R6RS I test things in, Racket, doesn't support that.
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2020-10-31T00:42:33Z Riastradh: I have no idea.  In MIT Scheme it is just the NaN payload interpreted as an integer the obvious way.
2020-10-31T00:43:12Z aeth: MIT Scheme seems to be the only Scheme that cares about these things.
2020-10-31T00:43:22Z aeth: At least, every time this stuff comes up in #scheme
2020-10-31T00:43:22Z Riastradh preens
2020-10-31T00:43:58Z aeth: The standards stuff sometimes hints at more, but the more might just be permitting other Schemes to copy MIT Scheme since there doesn't seem to be a document (e.g. SRFI) of more.
2020-10-31T00:44:10Z Riastradh: go for it
2020-10-31T00:49:29Z aeth: it looks like this might be all there is in R6RS... http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-7.html#node_sec_4.2.8
2020-10-31T00:50:54Z jcowan: aeth: Acceptance of s, f, d, and l prefixes was actually required in R[456]RS; we dropped the requirement in R7 because only a few Schemes actually care.
2020-10-31T00:51:22Z Riastradh: I don't know what the point of the .0 is unless there is a possibility you might allow nonzero values.
2020-10-31T00:51:26Z aeth: jcowan: Yeah. I was in the process of writing: It looks like the only real difference here is that R6RS mandates s, f, d, and l, but they could just all be doubles if the Scheme only has doubles... R7RS permits but doesn't require them.
2020-10-31T00:51:48Z jcowan: Same for CL, actually.
2020-10-31T00:51:50Z aeth: Riastradh: portability with Schemes that do
2020-10-31T00:52:07Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/FloatPrecision.md
2020-10-31T00:52:22Z aeth: Riastradh: although, to be fair, I use a pointless "0" in my "f0" in e.g. +inf.0f0 because that matches how you'd write most single flonums literally, e.g. 1f0 or 1.0f0
2020-10-31T00:52:44Z aeth: (of course, you can write 1f6 for the single flonum equivalent of 1e6)
2020-10-31T00:52:54Z aeth: (But in most cases, you'll just be writing a lot of "f0"s)
2020-10-31T00:53:39Z jcowan: CL requires that the markers e and f are the same thing, whereas Scheme doesn't.
2020-10-31T00:54:16Z Riastradh: could have binary16=s, binary32=f, binary64=d, binary80=e, and binary128=l
2020-10-31T00:54:28Z Riastradh: or double-Dekker binary64=l
2020-10-31T00:55:09Z jcowan: So only Racket, Kawa, and NexJ actually have multiple precisions.  In Kawa, L marks a bigfloat.
2020-10-31T00:55:18Z aeth: jcowan: CL requires that e is the same as f if the mutable global variable (!) is set to 'SINGLE-FLOAT which is the default value, but it can be 'DOUBLE-FLOAT instead.
2020-10-31T00:55:27Z jcowan: If starting from scratch and I cared about numerical work, I'd go with 16-bit, 32-bit, 64-bit, and arbitrary precision
2020-10-31T00:55:40Z aeth: jcowan: So in effect, all of your code needs to be explicitly single-float or double-float in CL if you actually care about the precision and don't want unexpected bugs to pop up
2020-10-31T00:55:43Z Riastradh: (but, realistically, the only reason you might want to deal with multiple precisions is if you have vectorized computations on large volumes of data, not as separate tags on individual objects)
2020-10-31T00:55:46Z jcowan: Yes.  Oddly FLOAT defaults to single foat, ,*not* the value of the variable
2020-10-31T00:55:52Z jcowan: (the function FLOAT, I mean)
2020-10-31T00:56:34Z Riastradh: (so any effort spent in this area is better spent on packed arrays and vectorization, not on distinguishing 1.0f0 from 1.0d0 in isolation)
2020-10-31T00:57:14Z jcowan nods
2020-10-31T00:57:48Z jcowan: Which reminds me: do modern CPUs have fast flonum->fixnum?  That used to be a bottleneck, but I don't know if it still is.
2020-10-31T00:58:36Z aeth: jcowan: long float could mean arbitrary precision or it could mean > double precision supported by the platform's hardware. A lot of platforms have 80-bit extended precision (e.g. x86), while some rare ones (e.g. POWER9) have hardware IEEE quadruple-precision support.
2020-10-31T00:58:54Z jcowan: I'm speaking of Kawa specifically.
2020-10-31T00:59:06Z aeth: short float should basically always be 16-bit these days, but there are some alternatives to IEEE half-precision these days.
2020-10-31T00:59:17Z jcowan: Racket has 80-bit precision floats,m but they are not instances of number?.
2020-10-31T00:59:49Z aeth: imo there needs to be more at the top beyond long float
2020-10-31T01:00:25Z aeth: that is, it could reasonably refer to 80-bit, 128-bit, 256-bit (OK, that's probably thinking decades in advance, but it exists), or arbitrary.
2020-10-31T01:00:31Z Riastradh: aeth: Is there actually hardware out there that implements binary128?  I've never heard of it.
2020-10-31T01:00:54Z aeth: Riastradh: If there is, you can edit Wikipedia when you find out! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octuple-precision_floating-point_format#Hardware_support
2020-10-31T01:00:55Z Riastradh: (Yes, I know it's documented in some ISAs -- question is whether there are actual implementations or whether it's always emulated by traps to software.)
2020-10-31T01:01:37Z Riastradh: (was asking about binary128, not binary256)
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2020-10-31T01:02:15Z aeth: oops
2020-10-31T01:03:03Z aeth: Riastradh: The answer is apparently z/Architecture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple-precision_floating-point_format#Hardware_support
2020-10-31T01:03:24Z jcowan: Quad precision goes back to the Vax, although that was pre-IEEE.
2020-10-31T01:03:31Z aeth: The rest of the ones there are either non-IEEE or just specifications, unless POWER9 actually has it in hardware
2020-10-31T01:03:39Z aeth: Of course, Wikipedia can be incomplete, and if it is, someone here should edit it
2020-10-31T01:03:59Z Riastradh: jcowan: `bottleneck' meaning what, exactly?
2020-10-31T01:04:25Z aeth: That Wikipedia article is missing RISC V, which has quad floats (at least as a draft)
2020-10-31T01:04:52Z jcowan: Speed bottleneck when converting doubles (as in Perl 4 or early Basics) to things like vector indexes.
2020-10-31T01:06:35Z aeth: I wonder if we'll see the return of floating point "coprocessors" for ultra-niche stuff like quad floats once everything's chiplet-based.
2020-10-31T01:07:18Z Riastradh: OK.  Looks like cvtsd2si ranges from 2 to 13 cycle latency on various Intel/AMD microarchitectures, according to Agner Fog's tables.
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2020-10-31T01:08:10Z Riastradh: Even at the higher end (mostly AMD microarchitectures) that's peanuts compared to interpretive overhead; maybe relevant only for native code.
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2020-10-31T01:41:33Z Riastradh: Similar on arm.
2020-10-31T01:41:45Z siraben: What's a Scheme that cross-compiles well?
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2020-10-31T01:46:12Z jcowan: Chicken.
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