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2020-08-01T00:16:05Z zaifir: Well, I think we've taken that one as far as it will go.
2020-08-01T00:19:17Z aeth: most-positive-bignum?
2020-08-01T00:23:51Z zaifir: +inf.0
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2020-08-01T08:42:00Z zig: re: movie about little schemer trilogy: lol x)
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2020-08-01T11:19:47Z zig: heh all test suite about http I found are the same
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2020-08-01T12:06:16Z zig: zaifir: what do you use instead of wayland ?
2020-08-01T12:10:24Z gwatt: presumably Xorg, since that's the only other option
2020-08-01T12:10:45Z zig: yeah, I also considering raw terminals :)
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2020-08-01T13:29:21Z mdhughes: Just use IRQs to directly access the graphics card.
2020-08-01T13:37:51Z zig: (irq-set! 0 #x00FF00)
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2020-08-01T14:15:43Z mdhughes: I wonder how much of Abrash's Black Book still runs…
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2020-08-01T16:41:08Z aeth: zig: Alternatively, maybe we can have a movie where DrScheme (eventually DrRacket, but it's an origin story) joins the Marvel Cinematic Universe
2020-08-01T16:45:35Z zig: that is bigger budget :)
2020-08-01T16:46:45Z zig: +a
2020-08-01T16:48:35Z zig: aeth: what is your OS of choice?
2020-08-01T16:51:58Z aeth: zig: Currently? I use Fedora, and have been doing so for probably 15 years now. It hits the sweet spot where it's mainstream enough to be low-maintenance and even get third party repositories (e.g. Chrome, Adobe Flash (heh), etc.), but not too mainstream to the point where it starts making fashionable-to-hate mistakes (i.e. Ubuntu)
2020-08-01T16:52:35Z aeth: And upgrading versions hasn't really been an issue in 10+ years except for the one where they moved nearly everything to /usr/
2020-08-01T16:54:49Z aeth: Sometimes packages are missing, though, that are probably on more popular distros. e.g. they added Racket fairly recently, maybe only 5 years ago, because they had issues packaging it before then
2020-08-01T16:59:07Z aeth: zig: As for OS of choice in the long run? We should set up a GoFundMe to buy Symbolics as a community, although idk if most Schemers still see themselves as "Lispers".
2020-08-01T17:00:11Z zig: re lispers, I think I do, why not?
2020-08-01T17:00:29Z aeth: well, e.g. The Little Lisper's rename
2020-08-01T17:00:35Z zig: Symbolics schematics and code is still around?
2020-08-01T17:03:06Z zig: As for the OS of choice in the long run, I am tug between various ideas 1) doing something that people would use today with existing hardware, so the kernel is necessarly linux or bsd 2) what would be the software interface I mean, not even speaking of Desktop Environment, in particular, what would happen to the file system.
2020-08-01T17:03:59Z zig: we are deep down attached to the FS hierarchy e.g. the library system, maybe there is another way, a way I would like to explore as part of arew
2020-08-01T17:04:34Z zig: now that I wrote that, maybe  the library system is not so much related to the FS in the standard, but only in existing implementations.
2020-08-01T17:05:09Z aeth: zig: Symbolics's Genera would basically be useless in 2020... but as a brand, it would be great to have Symbolics GeneraL, Genera-on-Linux, sort of like Android, but with Lisp instead of Java.
2020-08-01T17:11:40Z zaifir: If the CLers bought Symbolics and the Schemers bought/resurrected LMI...
2020-08-01T17:12:27Z zaifir: The unproductive Lisp machine wars of the 80s could begin all over again.
2020-08-01T17:12:41Z zaifir: The first time as history, the second as farce.
2020-08-01T17:15:04Z zig: farce? why is that?
2020-08-01T17:19:09Z zig: aeth: would you rethink the file system thing?
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2020-08-01T17:25:25Z zaifir: zig: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eighteenth_Brumaire_of_Louis_Napoleon#First_as_tragedy,_then_as_farce
2020-08-01T17:27:25Z zig: TIL
2020-08-01T17:28:36Z zaifir: And, of course, I misquoted it.
2020-08-01T17:28:57Z zaifir: The revival of the Lisp machine wars would be a farce, because there'd be so little at stake.
2020-08-01T17:29:31Z zig: You mean that it will not provide enough values?
2020-08-01T17:29:46Z zaifir: It would provide all the values.
2020-08-01T17:30:04Z zaifir: As Lisp programmers, we know the value of everything.
2020-08-01T17:31:08Z zaifir: But I fear that a mainstream Lisp machine is a far more remote goal now than it was in the 80s.
2020-08-01T17:31:50Z zig: maybe we do not know what great things it will deliver because we did not try.
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2020-08-01T17:34:49Z zaifir: zig: Agreed.  I think it's not possible to realize the "great things" that a Lisp environment provides in a way that conforms to currently-popular approaches to computing.
2020-08-01T17:35:34Z zaifir: zig: The whole your-computer-is-an-appliance-with-two-buttons UI/UX philosophy is completely at odds with programmability.
2020-08-01T17:36:46Z zaifir: So a fully-programmable OS as we, I think, understand it, would be a subversive project. :)
2020-08-01T17:37:29Z zig: anything subversive is not worth trying...
2020-08-01T17:38:50Z zaifir: zig: What makes you say that?
2020-08-01T17:40:09Z zig: Experience. It is very difficult.
2020-08-01T17:41:48Z zaifir: Projects can, in themselves, be subversive.  Starting an effort to make them mainstream can be really painful, though, I imagine.
2020-08-01T17:44:13Z zaifir: I suppose, if one writes enough software at odds with the mainstream, someday Eric Schmidt visits you and asks if there's anything the great Googler can do for you.  And then you get the satisfaction of asking him to step out of your sunlight.
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2020-08-01T18:04:59Z zig: It seems like a good plan.
2020-08-01T18:09:27Z aeth: zig: Nope, no interest in rethinking how the OS works at a low level, mainly because it would be incompatible with all existing software's assumptions. Nobody uses an OS that can't run their software, except perhaps if you make it a niche "micro-OS" to serve as a VM guest for hosting server software in the cloud.
2020-08-01T18:10:20Z aeth: zig: A LispOS on the Linux kernel would be the only LispOS that (1) would have all the drivers for running on real hardware and (2) would run software that people want like Steam and Firefox
2020-08-01T18:12:05Z zaifir: Doesn't Steam assume a GNU userspace?
2020-08-01T18:12:27Z aeth: zaifir: Depends on what you mean by "OS". If you mean full Lisp stack all the way down to the kernel (and, if running on a lispm, even below that), then, yeah, the ship has sailed and we're too late. If you mean something like Android, which is basically a Java OS running on top of the Linux kernel (which could even be replaced with e.g. Fuchsia one day in the distant future), then it's definitely possible
2020-08-01T18:13:07Z zaifir: Yeah, that sounds very plausible.
2020-08-01T18:14:01Z aeth: zaifir: As for GNU, the only GNU required by a Linux environment is afaik the GCC toolchain required to build the Linux kernel (at least until the LLVM version of the Linux kernel is upstreamed, if ever). I wouldn't be surprised if Steam requires GNU, but Steam also ships its own stable runtime for the applications themselves, so... it probably wouldn't be that hard to isolate the GNU to just Steam if that's what you want.
2020-08-01T18:14:11Z aeth: Ironic, using GNU for proprietary software.
2020-08-01T18:14:42Z zaifir: Whether or not it would provide a substantially different environment than J. Random Distro, I don't know.  I'm not such a Lisp partisan as to think that cat(1) written in Lisp is better than one written in C.
2020-08-01T18:17:07Z aeth: zaifir: Start top-down, not bottom-up. Don't think about replacing systemd then bash/coreutils/etc., and so on. Think about replacing KDE/GNOME, apt-get/dnf/pacman/etc., and so on.
2020-08-01T18:17:29Z zaifir: "Think about replacing KDE/GNOME..."  Who needs those? ;)
2020-08-01T18:17:30Z aeth: Really, the thing that distinguishes a distro is the last part I listed, the package manager
2020-08-01T18:18:14Z zaifir: Sure.
2020-08-01T18:18:23Z zig: zaifir: what do you use wm et al.?
2020-08-01T18:18:58Z zaifir: zig: Well, my main use for a wm is to move terminals around, so dwm or cwm.
2020-08-01T18:19:07Z zig: seriously?
2020-08-01T18:19:22Z zaifir: Of course.
2020-08-01T18:19:41Z zig: I was into dwm at some point, I even created the initial package for guix.
2020-08-01T18:20:10Z zaifir: It's pretty hard to beat at, what, 2000 lines of C?
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2020-08-01T18:20:50Z zaifir: Although the OpenBSD folks have done a fantastic job on cwm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cwm_(window_manager)
2020-08-01T18:21:02Z zig: aeth: I agree with the top-down approach, that said, it will need bright new ideas to be adopted.
2020-08-01T18:21:31Z aeth: I use stumpwm on my desktop, but on my laptop I use KDE because it'll probably handle things like suspend, WiFi, etc., properly. You know, stuff that are only an issue on laptops.
2020-08-01T18:21:37Z zaifir: Ah, stump.
2020-08-01T18:22:07Z aeth: I also sometimes use KDE on my desktop, when something breaks in stumpwm, usually when it's multiple-window-oriented, like GIMP before the big change a few years ago.
2020-08-01T18:22:30Z aeth: stumpwm still doesn't handle free floating subwindows properly, last I checked.
2020-08-01T18:23:09Z zaifir: I was really interested in stumpwm for a bit, but I think now that a window manager isn't a very good place for runtime programmability.
2020-08-01T18:23:13Z zig: I use wayland and sway to have a transparent terminal :>
2020-08-01T18:23:39Z zig: stylish minimalism.
2020-08-01T18:23:51Z aeth: zaifir: I use stumpwm for the Emacs-like keys... although the default of C-t is absolutely awful since that interferes with new tabs in Firefox. I rebound it to a combination using the meta key, which should (in theory) always be reserved to the window manager.
2020-08-01T18:24:04Z aeth: s/meta key/super key/
2020-08-01T18:24:04Z zaifir: Bogus minimalism, I think.  There's a huge messy codebase behind that "minimal" look.
2020-08-01T18:24:15Z zig working on it :)
2020-08-01T18:25:08Z zig: I looked at how to replace xorg or wayland it is far from easy.
2020-08-01T18:25:13Z zaifir: aeth: Yeah, it's surprising that most wms default to using meta.  Super is perfect for that.
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2020-08-01T18:25:41Z zig: at the same time, I was saying the same with HTTP. Actually, the basics of HTTP are easy.
2020-08-01T18:26:05Z zaifir: zig: I think it's silly that when people asked the Wayland creators what was wrong with X, they said "it looks old".
2020-08-01T18:26:17Z zig: erf!
2020-08-01T18:26:31Z zaifir: (There are *many* things wrong with X, but that was astonishingly superficial)
2020-08-01T18:28:58Z zaifir: The X protocol is actually elegant, assuming a world in which the windowing system does the drawing and not the client.  Which is, unfortunately, not the current mainstream world.
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2020-08-01T18:35:52Z aeth: zaifir: I guess that they can't assume that an arbitrary keyboard will have the super/windows key, although pretty much any non-Mac keyboard in the last 20+ years will have it and I bet MacOS has some key that's treated like the super key.
2020-08-01T18:36:09Z aeth: Plus, if you're installing a tiling WM, it's probably not the only one you have, so you can always mess with the configuration.
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2020-08-01T18:37:11Z aeth: And anything that's not the WM using the super key should be treated as a bug, unless the user bound the keys
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2020-08-01T19:23:20Z zig: fwiw, the following answer provides a lead on how to display something without wayland or xorg
2020-08-01T19:23:22Z zig: https://stackoverflow.com/a/58176272/140837
2020-08-01T19:29:24Z zig: (but still using the graphic stack of the OS so that it is portable)
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2020-08-01T19:33:30Z zig: !!1
2020-08-01T19:43:08Z bitwiz: zig: Here is some work from one of my past lives doing something very similar: https://git.bitwiz.me.uk/glamo-dri-tests.git/tree/
2020-08-01T19:43:46Z bitwiz: Note that you really don't get much more than a framebuffer pointer from the kernel via the graphics stack
2020-08-01T19:45:09Z zig: thanks i made a backup.
2020-08-01T19:45:20Z zig: bitwiz: what was the goal?
2020-08-01T19:46:37Z bitwiz: Trying to write an accelerated (2D and 3D) graphics driver for the GPU in the Openmoko phone
2020-08-01T19:47:09Z bitwiz: The repo I posted is some simple tests to do things like test throughput by doing things like filling the screen with colours
2020-08-01T19:47:52Z zig: what format are the pixels?
2020-08-01T19:54:33Z bitwiz: In that case, RGB565 if I remember correctly.  But in general, It Depends
2020-08-01T19:57:51Z bitwiz: I can highly recommend against trying to do graphics by poking individual registers on a GPU, but writing directly to a framebuffer is fine (if slow)
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2020-08-01T20:26:11Z bitwiz: Everything in my repo is 100% specific to an exact GPU which you will hardly be able to find any more.  What you want will be something similar to my gdrm-kms-addfb.c, but that code is >10 years old now and the API will have changed somewhat
2020-08-01T20:28:29Z bitwiz: It can actually be easier to get access to a framebuffer on 100% bare metal.  Here is me trying (though, failing) to do it on a Raspberry Pi 3 in assembly language: https://git.bitwiz.me.uk/baremetal.git/tree/src/framebuffer.s
2020-08-01T20:30:28Z wasamasa: the mailbox stuff on the rpi cracks me up
2020-08-01T20:30:33Z wasamasa: how does this nonsense even work
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2020-08-01T23:38:27Z Riastradh: wasamasa: What do you mean?
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2020-08-02T01:08:58Z Riastradh: jcowan: zig: The basic promise operations are sometimes a pretty serious bottleneck.  I made stream operations in MIT Scheme about 7x faster a year or two ago with some modest changes to the promise operations.
2020-08-02T01:10:23Z Riastradh: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/boot.scm#n249
2020-08-02T01:12:19Z Riastradh: I think the big impact was from this: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/src/runtime/boot.scm?id=4e246161076d4a2e3f9ff5f9e72dcca30a8013e5
2020-08-02T01:12:19Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/Bmjf9UkFLe
2020-08-02T01:13:38Z Riastradh: (But some other things -- like open-coding the accessors, <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/src/runtime/boot.scm?id=1f1e822357542d04a8e7fe8cad4710decaa6cdb9> -- made a substantial difference too.)
2020-08-02T01:13:38Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/KzFzAcMZR3
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2020-08-02T08:58:56Z bitwiz: Riastradh: (r.e. wasamasa comment): the "mailbox stuff" is one of the low-level hoops you have to jump through to get direct access to screen memory on a Raspberry Pi
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2020-08-02T09:36:39Z wasamasa: Riastradh: before studying the rpi and interim running on it, I've always thought of mailboxes as high-level abstractions used by erlang, scheme and so on
2020-08-02T09:37:27Z wasamasa: Riastradh: the rpi proved me wrong, you can use it to gatekeep people with weak assembler skill from ever doing graphics stuff with it :D
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2020-08-02T12:12:38Z lisbeths: How do I make a stateless tick tack toe board?
2020-08-02T12:13:00Z zig: stateless?
2020-08-02T12:13:05Z zig: you mean immutable?
2020-08-02T12:13:45Z zig: lisbeths: ?
2020-08-02T12:13:55Z lisbeths: yes
2020-08-02T12:14:11Z lisbeths: assume my pieces are each typed as a single character
2020-08-02T12:14:24Z wasamasa: take one board, map over it into a new board
2020-08-02T12:14:41Z lisbeths: but I mean how can I save the state of the new board?
2020-08-02T12:14:46Z lisbeths: do I tack it onto the end of a list?
2020-08-02T12:15:20Z lisbeths: do I make a (move-piece) function where each time I make a change it defines a new variable?
2020-08-02T12:15:49Z wasamasa: it depends on how exactly that game of yours works
2020-08-02T12:16:06Z zig: what about: create a mutable version of your game, then re-ask the question with some code?
2020-08-02T12:16:15Z wasamasa: for example if you have a game loop, a natural approach is to recur into a new loop iteration with the new board state
2020-08-02T12:16:36Z lisbeths: yes I guess this is where I get confused is I want to be able to break out of hte loop
2020-08-02T12:16:46Z wasamasa: that is handled above that level
2020-08-02T12:17:06Z wasamasa: the board logic doesn't need to concern itself with that
2020-08-02T12:17:12Z lisbeths: I imagine going like (define board-3 (function "move" board-2))
2020-08-02T12:17:34Z lisbeths: but this manual defining of board-n where n is the number of move is like sheep and not cattle
2020-08-02T12:17:42Z wasamasa: you could for example use call/cc to allow quitting prematurely from the loop
2020-08-02T12:17:49Z wasamasa: or check before processing an event whether it signals a game quit
2020-08-02T12:18:24Z wasamasa: see here for a SDL example: https://depp.brause.cc/kiwi/examples/hello-world/hello-world.scm
2020-08-02T12:18:53Z lisbeths: what I mean is that I can make a board such as it recursively asks the user to make a move until the game is done, then exits into the outer interpreter, but to me it seems a higher category to be able to return to the outer interpreter after every move
2020-08-02T12:18:57Z wasamasa: (let loop () (when (not (sdl2:quit-requested?) ... (loop))
2020-08-02T12:19:25Z wasamasa: this is stateful of course because sdl2, but can be adjusted not to be
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2020-08-02T12:20:28Z lisbeths: I can make that stateless by saying (define moves (recursively 'get-player-moves)) and then whether they quit or not all of their moves are recorded and then used to draw the final board
2020-08-02T12:20:33Z wasamasa: a more stateless one: https://depp.brause.cc/programming-in-scheme/circle-squared/interactive.scm
2020-08-02T12:20:33Z mdhughes: Right, game loop reads user input, updates world state, renders world state, repeat.
2020-08-02T12:20:55Z wasamasa: where it uses the read in event in the loop
2020-08-02T12:21:08Z mdhughes: You don't need to remember the past moves, update just takes inputs and world state, and returns a new world state.
2020-08-02T12:21:35Z lisbeths: sure I can make a func which takes world state and returns world state but I feel like saving that return world state into an array
2020-08-02T12:21:50Z lisbeths: and from what I gather that involves redefining the array, so maybe that isn't kosher within purely functional programming
2020-08-02T12:22:25Z lisbeths: is there no growable datastructure?
2020-08-02T12:22:33Z wasamasa: redefining is not the problem
2020-08-02T12:22:40Z wasamasa: that's what the loop does
2020-08-02T12:22:51Z wasamasa: the problem is mutating the value of an array
2020-08-02T12:22:54Z wasamasa: that wouldn't be stateless
2020-08-02T12:22:54Z lisbeths: perhaps I need some like "beginner" coding problems like fizzbuzz, tic tac toe, chess, etc
2020-08-02T12:22:59Z mdhughes: (set! oldworlds (cons newworld oldworlds))
2020-08-02T12:23:28Z wasamasa: hence why we bother with writing mapping and folding procedures that create new lists and arrays
2020-08-02T12:23:48Z mdhughes: But no reason to keep the old world state, just toss it. It's a waste of memory in bigger games!
2020-08-02T12:24:00Z wasamasa: yeah, I'd only keep it for fancy things like time-travel
2020-08-02T12:24:08Z lisbeths: the question has to do with a recursive function where each time I call this function it defines a new thing
2020-08-02T12:24:35Z lisbeths: so that rather than discard all of the state transitions I can see them all as they have been computed sequentially
2020-08-02T12:24:45Z mdhughes: It's hard to do much in a game pure functional, you're going to need state somewhere and it's easier to save it than recompute it. But the lower-level parts can be pure functional, which makes it easier to design & test.
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2020-08-02T12:25:49Z lisbeths: so lets say I define an array with five billion pieces of state in array, and I redefine that array with 1 piece changed, is scheme going to have to write over that entire array or just that index?
2020-08-02T12:26:20Z wasamasa: you're skipping over how that one piece changed
2020-08-02T12:26:45Z wasamasa: if it changed by setting the variable to a new array with a different item, sure, you have to walk over the whole thing
2020-08-02T12:26:57Z mdhughes: Depends on "array". If it's a mutable vector, nope. If it's a list, everything after the changed element will get reused but the fore part will be changed.
2020-08-02T12:27:07Z wasamasa: if it changed by using the mutating procedure array-set!, then it's not stateless and you're having the same array
2020-08-02T12:27:15Z wasamasa: binding it to a new name doesn't change anything about that
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2020-08-02T13:18:52Z zig: the only thing that comes to mind to represent an immutable board is finger trees...
2020-08-02T13:19:08Z zig: but there is no srfi for it as of yet
2020-08-02T13:19:25Z zig: or something that is an immutable vector.
2020-08-02T13:19:39Z zig: or immutable vector with structural sharing.
2020-08-02T13:20:12Z zig: lisbeths: did you find a solution to you problem?
2020-08-02T13:20:24Z zig: lisbeths: did you find a solution to your problem?
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2020-08-02T13:24:26Z lisbeths: well uh
2020-08-02T13:24:46Z lisbeths: wasamasa asked me to try to implement it then show my implementation to ask for improvements so I am trying my best to implement it immutably right now
2020-08-02T13:25:08Z lisbeths: zig: currently I am trying to write a function which replaces a piece of data in the nth index of a list
2020-08-02T13:25:23Z lisbeths: not by mutating it but by returning a list which contains the new data instead of the old
2020-08-02T13:30:38Z zig: good :)
2020-08-02T13:31:56Z wasamasa: for the record, clojure pretty much forces you to program in this style
2020-08-02T13:32:30Z wasamasa: you can circumvent it by either using appropriate data structures or java :D
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2020-08-02T14:00:25Z dTal: Why is 'begin' so named? It seems counterintuitive. Shouldn't it be called something like "sequence" or "do"?
2020-08-02T14:07:55Z lisbeths: uh If you mean the begin loop then that predates scheme
2020-08-02T14:08:05Z lisbeths: some older programming language I forget which has a begin-until loop
2020-08-02T14:13:03Z lisbeths: I think the reason do loop came before while loop is that a while loop required 1 extra conditional jump in asm than a do loop so do loop is more intuitive in asm
2020-08-02T14:16:00Z erkin: Maclisp had `progn' so `begin' was probably borrowed later on as a clearer term.
2020-08-02T14:18:47Z mdhughes: We should have begi1 and begi2 to complement begin, just like LISP.
2020-08-02T14:19:16Z wasamasa: begin0 is a thing
2020-08-02T14:19:25Z Riastradh: dTal: Algol code blocks were delimited by begin/end.
2020-08-02T14:19:33Z erkin: It seems the original Scheme in the AI memo also had `progn', as well as a `block', the latter of which also appears in the revised report.
2020-08-02T14:20:47Z Riastradh: lisbeths: You might like Chris Okasaki's book _Purely Functional Data Structures_.
2020-08-02T14:21:15Z erkin: A ha, revised revised report defines `begin' as well as a synonym `sequence'.
2020-08-02T14:21:24Z dTal: Riastradh: Ah, I guess that makes sense in historical context.
2020-08-02T14:22:12Z Riastradh: Early Scheme was very much inspired by Algol.  Even the name of the reports describing Scheme, `The [Revised^n] Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme', were a riff on the reports describing Algol.
2020-08-02T14:23:31Z erkin: Aren't all later RnRSes dedicated to the memory of Algol?
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2020-08-02T14:24:47Z lisbeths: well so far what I have written is immutable. Since I am trying to edit from the middle of a list, this is a strong sign that my code needs to be refactored. however since I am having such trouble writing a function that edits from the middle of a list immutably, I care to finish writing what I am writing before I show it off for refactoring.
2020-08-02T14:25:49Z wasamasa: lol
2020-08-02T14:25:53Z wasamasa: do you even named let
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2020-08-02T14:26:18Z wasamasa: no need to make a mountain out of a mole hill
2020-08-02T14:34:04Z lisbeths: if I were programming it mutably I would already be done :p
2020-08-02T14:34:58Z wasamasa: "If I can't do this, it cannot be done"
2020-08-02T14:35:06Z wasamasa: bad yard stick there
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2020-08-02T14:42:40Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2sY1
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2020-08-02T14:48:56Z lisbeths: more like "fail faster"
2020-08-02T14:56:44Z lisbeths: one solution is to copy someone elses algorithm but a higher category of thinking is to figure out why my thinking is not currently able to refactor the algorithm I am writing.
2020-08-02T15:01:01Z mdhughes: One option, fairly computationally expensive, is to map a function over the world state, that computes each cell's new state. That's practical for cellular automata like Conway's Game of Life…
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2020-08-02T15:10:11Z lisbeths:  I have implmemented nth-cdr which does cdr n times and I have implemented n, and now I am trying to implement take, because take is not part of my chicken scheme
2020-08-02T15:11:28Z wasamasa: you seem to be blissfully unaware of srfi-1
2020-08-02T15:11:52Z lisbeths: yes, yes I am
2020-08-02T15:12:00Z lisbeths: I normally just do my stuff in c bash or javascript
2020-08-02T15:14:33Z lisbeths: what directory do I need to download srfi-1 into to include it?
2020-08-02T15:14:42Z wasamasa: chicken-install srfi-1
2020-08-02T15:16:41Z lisbeths: unbound variable chicken-install
2020-08-02T15:16:55Z wasamasa: I have no words
2020-08-02T15:16:57Z lisbeths: your move big brain man
2020-08-02T15:17:14Z wasamasa: I mean, come on, you've boasted writing forth in bash before
2020-08-02T15:17:15Z lisbeths: s/man/person
2020-08-02T15:17:25Z wasamasa: surely you can figure out what's lisp and what's a shell command
2020-08-02T15:17:25Z lisbeths: yeah forth makes it obvious how to include from a file
2020-08-02T15:17:33Z lisbeths: ah
2020-08-02T15:22:50Z lisbeths: so I have installed sfri-1 via "sudo chicken-install sfri-1". When I go to use the take function it is undefined. So I use (require-extension sfri-1), and it says it is an undefined module
2020-08-02T15:23:31Z wasamasa: are you using version 5?
2020-08-02T15:23:49Z wasamasa: or are you weak at typing?
2020-08-02T15:23:52Z wasamasa: or both?
2020-08-02T15:25:16Z lisbeths: I am bad at typing
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2020-08-02T15:26:25Z Riastradh: lisbeths: FYI, it can be helpful to record a transcript of exactly what you typed and exactly what the machine wrote back, e.g. using the script command.
2020-08-02T15:26:31Z mdhughes: (import srfi-1) will work in CHICKEN 5.
2020-08-02T15:27:09Z Riastradh: (that way, for example, nobody has to guess whether `sfri' was a typo in your IRC message, or was what you actually typed in your commands)
2020-08-02T15:27:10Z mdhughes: None of this is documented *well*, but it is somewhat documented on the CHICKEN site.
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2020-08-02T15:29:22Z lisbeths: every language has a different means of recording what it spews out into my terminal
2020-08-02T15:29:38Z wasamasa: lol
2020-08-02T15:29:51Z Riastradh: lisbeths: script will record everything, including your shell and any Chicken process you run under the shell and so on.
2020-08-02T15:30:06Z wasamasa: that's a funny thing to say given the heroic effort in conforming to telegraph era protocols
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2020-08-02T15:30:53Z lisbeths: everything is portable except my motivation towards unportable systems
2020-08-02T15:30:53Z wasamasa: even copy-pasting the shell output into a pastebin is usually good enough
2020-08-02T15:31:15Z lisbeths: yes I shall consider automating that in emacs
2020-08-02T15:31:16Z wasamasa: with script you have one more file to pastebin
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2020-08-02T15:34:11Z zig: it is "srfi" like "surf the internet".
2020-08-02T15:39:27Z wasamasa: or surfee
2020-08-02T15:45:50Z zaifir: lisbeths: SRFIs are portable, as are many other Scheme libraries, with some adaptation.  The ways of installing them vary, however.
2020-08-02T15:47:00Z zaifir: lisbeths: With CHICKEN, I find it easiest to install it to $HOME, which eliminates the need for sudo ugliness.
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2020-08-02T16:32:39Z lisbeths: okay so back to my original query: I am learning immutable programming and I am having trouble figuring out how to represnt objects which I would normally write mutably. One object which I am encoding in this example is a tic tac toe board: https://pastebin.com/raw/GZa7nKpn I am having to do some very inefficient operations to transform this.
2020-08-02T16:32:39Z lisbeths:  
2020-08-02T16:43:00Z Riastradh: lisbeths: FYI: what you called nth-cdr is called drop in SRFI 1.
2020-08-02T16:43:16Z Riastradh: Also FYI: eq? is not a reliable way to compare numbers; use = instead.
2020-08-02T16:44:11Z Riastradh: But anyway, you have the right starting idea for how to update state with immutable data structures.  Chris Okasaki's book extends this idea to efficient algorithms for many different data structures with different kinds of update operations.
2020-08-02T16:46:02Z Riastradh: (that said, can't do much better for a very small fixed-size data structure like this)
2020-08-02T16:47:00Z Fare: semi-relatedly, I just used a zipper to speed up 5x batch updates on an immutable data structure
2020-08-02T16:47:17Z Riastradh: (...at least, without observing anything about the elements; in this case, you could certainly use bitwise operations on an integer or a pair of integers.)
2020-08-02T16:47:18Z Fare: batch updates are O(1)
2020-08-02T16:48:42Z zaifir: lisbeths: Yes, representing a board with lists will be inefficient.  But when it's a 3x3 board, who cares?
2020-08-02T16:49:37Z zaifir: lisbeths: Also, nth is called list-ref.
2020-08-02T16:50:48Z zaifir: lisbeths: print-board is essentially an "unrolled" fold.  You can write it more concisely.
2020-08-02T16:51:41Z zaifir: lisbeths: You may want to just browse through SRFI 1 and think about how some of the forms can be used to simplify your code.
2020-08-02T16:51:52Z wasamasa: you don't need to string-append things before printing them since print accepts non-strings
2020-08-02T16:52:38Z zaifir: You don't even need print (which is non-standard, anyway).  Just display.
2020-08-02T16:53:03Z wasamasa: right, all print does is display followed by newline
2020-08-02T16:53:11Z wasamasa: so you'd end up with an extra newline
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2020-08-02T18:54:43Z jcowan: I've been off-IRC for several days, so reading scrool
2020-08-02T18:56:20Z Riastradh: scroooooooooooool
2020-08-02T18:56:22Z jcowan: There is a project underway to get the Xerox Interlisp-D system (which supports both Interlisp and Common Lisp) working again using a microcode emulator.  The barrier with getting Genera working is that although we have a microcode emulator that definitely works, we do *not* have rights to distribute the Genera code itself.
2020-08-02T18:56:40Z Riastradh: Hmm.
2020-08-02T18:56:49Z Riastradh: I used Interlisp-D in some kind of emulator about 15 years ago.
2020-08-02T18:57:43Z Riastradh: Can't remember what it was.  Part of me wants to say it ran under Solaris on SPARC but my memory is hazy at this point.
2020-08-02T18:57:55Z jcowan: I used an actual Xerox workstation running Lyric (the next to last release) in the early 80s, so my memory is even hazier.
2020-08-02T18:58:31Z jcowan: Fortunately, neither Interlisp-D nor Genera are orphan works.
2020-08-02T18:59:44Z jcowan: Riastradh: Does the use of "microcode" in the MIT Scheme source reflect a time when there actually was microcode, or is it just an in-joke?
2020-08-02T19:00:07Z Riastradh: former
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2020-08-02T19:01:42Z Riastradh: https://people.csail.mit.edu/riastradh/InterlispSEdit.mov.bz2
2020-08-02T19:02:15Z Riastradh: (SEdit -- and number42's sedit.el -- was the inspiration for paredit)
2020-08-02T19:02:36Z Riastradh: I think the narrator was chandler.
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2020-08-02T19:08:15Z Riastradh: jcowan: https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6334
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2020-08-02T19:10:26Z Riastradh: After the Scheme-79 chip was designed and fabricated and its microcode implemented, someone (gjs? jar?) suggested that a bored undergrad named Chris translate the microcode into C to run the thing on Unix, so he ignored them and translated it to 68k assembly, and then later on translated it from 68k assembly to C.
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2020-08-02T19:15:21Z jcowan: I can only hear the audio, not see the pretty pictures.  But I like radio.
2020-08-02T19:17:24Z Riastradh: heh
2020-08-02T19:18:18Z Riastradh: I'm not sure a verbal description of what Interlisp-D SEdit does makes for great radio drama, but hey.
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2020-08-02T21:06:03Z jcowan: It does not.  But it was interesting anyhow.
2020-08-02T21:07:23Z weinholt: the video works in xine
2020-08-02T21:09:30Z jcowan: Eh, I don't care.  Normally I only watch videos for entertainment, not for instruction, and not too many of those.  Life is too short to spend it being spoon-fed at someone else's notion of what the max rate of information flow is.
2020-08-02T21:09:40Z jcowan: Especially my life, of course.
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2020-08-03T00:13:44Z mdhughes: I'm a lot less interested in the LISP Machine hardware/Genera specific, as another dev environment with that kind of graphical interconnection.
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2020-08-03T00:14:49Z mdhughes: As I noted a couple months ago: https://mdhughes.tech/2020/04/27/lisp-machines/
2020-08-03T00:15:49Z aeth: for entertainment, I usually watch videos at 2x unless the speaker is hard to understand
2020-08-03T00:16:11Z aeth: for tech stuff, I'll usually try to load it in VLC so I can go beyond the 2x of web browsers.
2020-08-03T00:18:57Z aeth: A lot of sites with videos (e.g. Reddit) seem to find a way to block even switching the browser-provided feature of setting video to 2x speed. That makes these websites absolutely worthless for videos, and helps cement YouTube's monopoly.
2020-08-03T00:19:28Z mdhughes: You can use youtube-dl to grab videos from many sources, including reddit and twitter.
2020-08-03T00:20:05Z aeth: Yes, but now I have to download them, which few videos are worth. (And even for the videos that are sort of worth it, to preserve them I'd have to start data hoarding and I'd probably need multiple 12 TB HDDs for that.)
2020-08-03T00:20:23Z mdhughes: You can delete files, turns out.
2020-08-03T00:20:53Z aeth: VLC can stream YouTube and some other sites directly (iirc vimeo? it's been a while), and you can use that to watch multihour videos at > 2x speed. There might be some browser extensions for that, too.
2020-08-03T00:22:13Z aeth: If the video is > 2 hours, I'm probably not going to even watch it at 2x speed, if I don't just skip around.
2020-08-03T00:23:28Z aeth: (These tend to be archived livestreams.)
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2020-08-03T01:10:12Z jgart: Just wanted to ask how some in the scheme community would solve this problem using this description of an algorithm for a simplified quicksort:
2020-08-03T01:10:18Z jgart: If the list is empty, there is nothing to do. Otherwise: 1. Take the first element of the list 2. Find all elements in the rest of the list that are less that the first element, and sort them. 3. Find all elements in the rest of the list that are >= that the first element, and sort them 4. Combine the three parts together to get the final result.
2020-08-03T01:11:11Z jgart: sorted smaller elements + first-element + sorted larger elements
2020-08-03T01:14:54Z jgart: If you feel like trying the above just debian paste it below. Any example implementations are greatly appreciated
2020-08-03T01:19:08Z Riastradh: I'd write a recursive procedure using (partition p L), which returns two values -- a list of the elements x of L for which (p x) is true, and a list of the elements x of L for which (p x) is false.
2020-08-03T01:20:32Z mdhughes loves doing CS homework
2020-08-03T01:21:06Z jgart: Riastradh, you mean partition from srfi-1?
2020-08-03T01:21:12Z Riastradh: jgart: correct
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2020-08-03T01:23:07Z jgart: Riastradh, thanks!
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2020-08-03T14:14:43Z Fare: I'm so happy about my with-id macro, that I don't understand why no other schemer seems to like it or have it written before.
2020-08-03T14:15:14Z jcowan: Pointer (or copy)?
2020-08-03T14:15:15Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/gerbil-utils/blob/master/with-id.ss
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2020-08-03T14:21:48Z Fare: it allows you to escape hygiene in a controled way, synthesizing identifiers in a provided context.
2020-08-03T14:22:03Z Fare: What do others use for that purpose?
2020-08-03T14:22:20Z Fare: syntax-case ? Yikes.
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2020-08-03T15:18:21Z jcowan: I think syntax-parameters is often what is wanted, though only a few Schemes have it.
2020-08-03T15:18:31Z jcowan: There's a SRFI, but of course the implementation is not portablel
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2020-08-03T15:23:48Z Riastradh: syntax-parameters are evil
2020-08-03T15:24:04Z Riastradh: (at least, that's what I remember concluding a decade ago)
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2020-08-03T15:29:21Z gwatt: `identifierify' that's a mouthful
2020-08-03T15:30:02Z gwatt: Fare: I can't immediately see how it's better than with-syntax + datum->syntax
2020-08-03T15:31:40Z Fare: much lighter weight
2020-08-03T15:32:22Z Fare: gwatt: identifierify is just yet another way of concatenating stuff into a string, then making an identifier out of that
2020-08-03T15:33:20Z Fare: i.e. (identifierify ctx foo: #'bar 1) => #'foobar1 (or, depending on what #'bar actually expands to, something else)
2020-08-03T15:33:44Z gwatt: ah, neat
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2020-08-03T15:42:13Z gwatt: Fare: the big saving over with-syntax seems to be that I can specify multiple identifiers to unhygienically insert at once.
2020-08-03T15:42:44Z Fare: that, also the default is same-name, and it works with syntax-rules
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2020-08-03T18:47:24Z zig: live editing imgui with s7 https://youtu.be/MgHsl0u26MY
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2020-08-03T19:03:08Z zig: erkin: where can I find your scheme logo? I want to update the avatar of @schemers@mastodon.technology
2020-08-03T19:04:52Z zig: nvm got it on http://erkin.party
2020-08-03T19:07:17Z wasamasa: erkin: you may want to work on that mimetypes config on your webserver
2020-08-03T19:07:32Z wasamasa: erkin: it doesn't serve .rkt and such as plain text
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2020-08-03T21:20:11Z aeth: "best viewed with any browser"
2020-08-03T21:20:19Z aeth: wow, that's an old meme
2020-08-03T21:20:28Z aeth: one of the first internet memes?
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2020-08-03T21:34:10Z jcowan: I can't speak to that, but probably the most frequent meme (of any size) is "All trademarks are the property of their respective owners."
2020-08-03T21:37:11Z autumn[m]: what about "best viewed with no browser at all"
2020-08-03T21:37:59Z gwatt: In 2013 my power company recommended that I upgrade my browser to Netscape Navigator or IE 4.0
2020-08-03T21:41:19Z autumn[m]: I suppose you could just like write the REAL page in a big comment at the top of the file, and then just have "best viewed without a browser" in tiny text at the bottom of a white background. not that it'd amuse anyone.
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2020-08-03T23:11:42Z aeth: jcowan: I was referring to a somewhat modern usage of "Internet meme". In particular, the "best viewed with any browser" non-animated GIF (shows its age right there) is an text-in-image-based parody that was all over the Internet in the 90s.
2020-08-03T23:11:46Z aeth: https://erkin.party/images/cheesy/any/littlebbv.gif
2020-08-03T23:13:05Z aeth: A very Geocities-era kind of meme.
2020-08-03T23:13:23Z aeth: Perhaps there are older ones, though, since that's from the browser war of the late 90s
2020-08-03T23:25:53Z erkin: I have a soft spot for '90s WWW.
2020-08-03T23:27:15Z erkin: I made a Geocities-style website (in HTML5 w/ CSS 4 no less) on Neocities a while ago but couldn't figure out what to fill it with: https://meow1917.neocities.org/
2020-08-03T23:33:55Z erkin: wasamasa: I expected web browsers to honour 'text/*' MIME types but I suppose they only look for certain hardcoded MIME types.
2020-08-03T23:34:13Z erkin: I replaced all instances of `text/x-racket' with `text/plain'.
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2020-08-04T00:33:41Z aeth: erkin: Scheme content, obviously
2020-08-04T00:34:25Z jcowan: aeth: Ah.  My website at http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan/ says "Best in any browser, no matter how ancient" in plaih text.
2020-08-04T00:45:57Z aeth: I prefer minimalism with max-width, although idk when that was introduced so it might not work in every browser
2020-08-04T00:48:54Z aeth: I also force sans-serif in CSS, but I don't notice sites that are so minimalist that they don't even do this because I set Firefox's default font to sans serif, instead of the serif that makes these sites stand out.
2020-08-04T00:50:20Z aeth: Last time I did CSS I mostly settled for (forgive the CLism in the keyword syntax): (:body :font-family "sans-serif" :font-size "10pt" :max-width "650px" :margin "40px auto" :color "#000")
2020-08-04T00:50:58Z aeth: In hindsight, I probably should also set a background-color or not set a foreground color.
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2020-08-04T00:55:23Z sm2n: this website has documented a lot of old internet memes: https://blog.geocities.institute/
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2020-08-04T02:11:27Z aeth: yeah, geocities is from 1994 so there are probably older ones than the browser wars memes
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2020-08-04T02:45:32Z zaifir: sm2n: Interesting read.  Thanks.
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2020-08-04T02:57:44Z mdhughes: I miss my virus warning. On my old site, I detected MSIE, and played a computery sample of me saying: "Warning! Virus detected! This computer has been infected with Microsloth Infernal Exploder. Reformat your hard drive before it spreads!"
2020-08-04T02:58:09Z mdhughes: I got kind of a lot of mail about that.
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2020-08-04T03:00:51Z autumn[m]: hehe
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2020-08-04T04:24:43Z aeth: mdhughes: I hope you updated it to drop the 'Infernal' part after Microsoft switched from IE to Edge.
2020-08-04T04:35:20Z mdhughes: I don't have anything against Edge, other than it's for an OS I'd never willingly use. They follow web standards more or less, about as well as Opera or any other last-place browser.
2020-08-04T04:36:12Z mdhughes: I hated MSIE because it was intentionally broken to fuck with Netscape and anyone not using Windows.
2020-08-04T04:38:45Z mdhughes: My site back then used Java applets for navigation and search, with a much less interesting fallback to links. The browser + Java applets should've killed platform-specific crap. We could've had a paradise, except for greedy, selfish, short-sighted Gates.
2020-08-04T04:40:15Z mdhughes: So here we are 25 years later, and I can sometimes get a cross-platform Scheme program working, with great effort, or 1000x slower JS SPA programs.
2020-08-04T04:43:32Z mdhughes: In which Mark is still frustrated by Racket: https://mdhughes.tech/2020/08/03/racket-cs-7-8/
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2020-08-04T07:05:17Z zig: I am collecting ideas for about test libraries at https://github.com/srfi-explorations/srfi-test/issues/3
2020-08-04T07:05:20Z zig: chime in!
2020-08-04T07:10:33Z mdhughes: Previously noted: https://mdhughes.tech/2020/02/27/scheme-test-unit/
2020-08-04T07:11:26Z mdhughes: There's probably more work to be done on the test runner, but SRFI-64 is perfectly fine as functionality goes.
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2020-08-04T07:32:57Z zig: ty
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2020-08-04T08:42:20Z tdammers: surely web assembly will save us
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2020-08-04T11:10:58Z galex-713: Hi
2020-08-04T11:11:29Z galex-713: Beside being lisp-1, continuation and ()/#f, what are the other differences between scheme and common lisp?
2020-08-04T11:20:14Z zig: non standard OOP framework
2020-08-04T11:24:27Z rgherdt: galex-713: although both languages are multi-paradigm, imo there's quite a big cultural difference between both communities. Schemers usually favor functional programming constructs, what is more natural in scheme due to lisp-1, mandatory tail-call recursion etc. So there is a tendence to avoid set!, mutating global variables etc.
2020-08-04T11:25:00Z rgherdt: whereas Common Lispers do a lot of OOP, which usually involve mutating states a lot
2020-08-04T11:27:19Z rgherdt: Another difference is the size: scheme has a minimal core language, which is extended by SRFI's. Common Lisp has a huge standard. So it's quite easier, for instance, to implement a minimal scheme that can be embedded in an environment.
2020-08-04T11:29:05Z rgherdt: besides its size, Common Lisp's standard is old and stable, so there's a higher compatibility among implementations
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2020-08-04T11:32:33Z rgherdt: ^s/tail-call recursion/tail-call optimization
2020-08-04T11:33:13Z zig: galex-713: there is also macros, CL does not support syntax-rules or syntax-case. They only support def-macro
2020-08-04T11:33:21Z zig: that is they do not have hygenic macros
2020-08-04T11:33:32Z zig: afaik
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2020-08-04T11:50:20Z galex-713: zig: you can still implement or find a lib to do that, graham does
2020-08-04T11:51:33Z galex-713: rgherdt: I was searching for technical differences, not social ones, but thank you for hinting me OOP is about mutation, and recalling me CL packages are not split enough (if only they were hierarchized…)
2020-08-04T11:52:01Z galex-713: rgherdt: actually, I ask that thinking “why is it hard to redefine scheme or cl in terms on the other”
2020-08-04T11:57:35Z rgherdt: galex-713: I see. In this case, OOP is probably not so relevant, since there are libraries that implement something similar to CLOS for scheme. I guess you already pointed at the most substancial differences. The condition/restart sytem from CL is also unique. You can achieve some of the same things with continuable exceptions, but it's not the same
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2020-08-04T12:04:57Z galex-713: rgherdt: are (delimited) continuations necessarily less efficient than gotos?
2020-08-04T12:05:05Z galex-713: and return
2020-08-04T12:05:12Z galex-713: and the way cl implements conditions?
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2020-08-04T12:11:21Z rgherdt: I'm not familiar with the implementation of conditions/gotos . Regarding continuations, their costs are largely implementation-dependent.
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2020-08-04T12:18:54Z rgherdt: afaik calling continuations in CHICKEN, for instance, is very efficient due to the way the compiler works (transforming everything into CPS)
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2020-08-04T12:19:53Z galex-713: rgherdt: more specifically I heard continuations made everything slow, even when not using continuations
2020-08-04T12:20:18Z rgherdt: but continuations and gotos don't express the same things (continuations in scheme are first-class objects, so they can be passed around, stored in variables etc)
2020-08-04T12:22:09Z galex-713: yeah and cl doesn’t have computed gotos, which, I think, have limited scope, to
2020-08-04T12:22:12Z galex-713: *too
2020-08-04T12:22:32Z galex-713: interesting
2020-08-04T12:22:52Z galex-713: I don’t really yet know continuations, but I count on sicp and seasoned schemer to teach me that
2020-08-04T12:23:43Z rgherdt: galex-713: maybe others can explain this performance aspect better. Afaik they do have some overhead, how large it is in practice I don't know. Having continuations on the other side allows very efficient implementations of green threads / coroutines, what is afaik difficult to achieve in CL
2020-08-04T12:24:31Z galex-713: I see
2020-08-04T12:25:13Z galex-713: to the overhead, I think this is because my friend is working on very efficient VMs generation, and he like uses gcc and then hand-check and tweak the assembly… so he’s really exigent
2020-08-04T12:25:17Z galex-713: *exigeant
2020-08-04T12:25:42Z galex-713: So! my first message captured all fundamental technical differences didn’t it?
2020-08-04T12:26:40Z siraben: Related: defunctionalization is a great way to grok continuations
2020-08-04T12:28:42Z rgherdt: as I recall, SICP and the Seasoned Schemer don't teach continuations (at least not in the sense used nowadays in scheme)
2020-08-04T12:31:20Z siraben: Might Matt loves writing his Scheme code in CPS in his blog posts
2020-08-04T12:42:19Z galex-713: rgherdt: really cool, that makes me a good reason more of reading the little series
2020-08-04T12:42:51Z galex-713: I’m just circonspect about the typer and provers one, they seems damn interesting but I’m afraid of loosing time
2020-08-04T12:45:24Z galex-713: rgherdt: wait, on #lisp somewhat pointed me dynamic scoping… I heard about “fluids” in scheme… are these standard or local to some implementations such as guile?
2020-08-04T12:50:07Z jcowan: Chicken smears the cost of first-class continuations over all function calling, whereas Chez is scrupulous about making them cost nothing if not used.  Both POVs have their place.
2020-08-04T12:50:38Z jcowan: Fluids are not standard, but parameters (which are like first-class dynamic scope objects) are part of the latest standard.
2020-08-04T12:50:51Z galex-713: r7rs?
2020-08-04T12:50:57Z jcowan: Yes.
2020-08-04T12:51:08Z jcowan: (Sorry if I explain the obvious; I don't know your level of knowledge)
2020-08-04T12:51:45Z galex-713: okay so now it is, very cool!
2020-08-04T12:54:19Z jcowan: R7RS is a growing standard, so we are adding features: some present in CL, some not, often done slightly differently.  For example, the condition system (which has been there since R6RS) has the same power as CL's (it provides both resumption after an exception and termination) but just arranges things a little differently.
2020-08-04T12:55:57Z jcowan: Many of the new capabilities now being standardized have been part of libs for a long time, others not so much.  We have not yet seriously started to bite the bullet of standardizing things that are inherently not portable, which of course will be a lot more difficult for implementers.
2020-08-04T13:00:27Z jcowan rereads Costanza's paper on hygienic macros in CL
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2020-08-04T13:28:43Z rain1: is there an HTML version
2020-08-04T13:30:25Z zig: not yet
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2020-08-04T13:32:53Z zig: galex-713: I put together the documentation of all current R7RS libraries in https://github.com/arew-scheme/book
2020-08-04T13:32:59Z zig: it is a pdf tho
2020-08-04T13:33:09Z zig: mostly all.
2020-08-04T13:33:28Z zig: it is missing scheme text and scheme show
2020-08-04T13:43:02Z galex-713: zig: where did you got that from?
2020-08-04T13:43:27Z galex-713: jcowan: so still no io/threads?
2020-08-04T13:44:45Z jcowan: There is a de facto standard for threads, mutexes, condition variables
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2020-08-04T13:46:32Z zig: galex-713: SRFI documents from https://srfi.schemers.org/
2020-08-04T13:46:58Z zig: galex-713: I did it base on SRFI documents ;-)
2020-08-04T13:47:04Z zig: galex-713: I did it based on SRFI documents ;-)
2020-08-04T13:47:34Z galex-713: oh wait
2020-08-04T13:47:40Z galex-713: r7rs is based on srfis?
2020-08-04T13:47:45Z galex-713: *r7rs-large
2020-08-04T13:47:47Z rgherdt: galex-713: jcowan means srfi-18 for threads, its widely supported.
2020-08-04T13:48:01Z galex-713: jcowan: thank you
2020-08-04T13:48:06Z jcowan: galex-713: Yes, that's the process we use
2020-08-04T13:48:14Z galex-713: rgherdt: and thank you too, I didn’t see jcowan’s msg
2020-08-04T13:48:22Z galex-713: jcowan: cool, very very cool
2020-08-04T13:49:20Z jcowan: As chief cook and bottle washer, I assemble SRFIs into dockets, where they get voted on.  I also write a lot of SRFIs myself, though that is changing now, and of course there are a lot of prior SRFIs that I didn't write.
2020-08-04T13:53:23Z rgherdt: galex-713: complementing what jcowan said, here you can see the already voted SRFI's that will be part of r7rs-large: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/RedEdition.md    https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/TangerineEdition.md
2020-08-04T13:53:45Z jcowan: actually those repos are shut down
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2020-08-04T13:54:03Z jcowan: the best approach atm is to follow the links fromn r7rs.org
2020-08-04T13:54:15Z rgherdt: jcowan: I didn't know that, thx
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2020-08-04T13:54:44Z jcowan: ($@#* Bitbucket stopped support hg, so I switched to github, which allowed me to import them as git.)
2020-08-04T13:54:57Z galex-713: ooooh
2020-08-04T13:55:16Z galex-713: so SRFi’s are a largely more comprehensive, dirty and unofficial thing than I thought
2020-08-04T13:55:31Z galex-713: it’s kinda like a CSAN (like CTAN or CPAN but for scheme)
2020-08-04T13:55:41Z galex-713: but mor formalized, like RFCs
2020-08-04T13:56:33Z zig: unlike CPAN, there is some cooperation happening..
2020-08-04T13:56:45Z jcowan: More like RFCs, except we also keep the implementations aroudn.
2020-08-04T13:58:10Z galex-713: yeah I see
2020-08-04T13:58:18Z wasamasa: python's PEPs are the better comparison
2020-08-04T13:58:34Z galex-713: jcowan: implementation too? it’s free non-copyleft isn’t it?
2020-08-04T13:58:44Z galex-713: I seldom know python
2020-08-04T13:59:02Z galex-713: I thought PEP were like XEP, like official extensions, not always implemented
2020-08-04T13:59:11Z galex-713: except python has a single implementation…
2020-08-04T13:59:14Z galex-713: contrarily to RFCs…
2020-08-04T13:59:23Z zig: galex-713: you are correct, but they implemented more often than not
2020-08-04T13:59:25Z jcowan: Right.  Everything is MIT so that it can fit into any Scheme with whatever license.
2020-08-04T14:00:04Z jcowan: Also, Python has a central implementation which others have to track (unlike Perl, where there truly is only one).
2020-08-04T14:00:30Z jcowan: Scheme does not, not even to the extent that SBCL serves that role.
2020-08-04T14:00:54Z jcowan: Other CLs don't feel like they are falling behind if they don't implement every SBCLism.  That's the benefit of having a standard.
2020-08-04T14:01:13Z bitmapper: i have to agree
2020-08-04T14:01:40Z bitmapper: with the benefit of having a standard thing
2020-08-04T14:01:48Z zig: That being said, arew will soon become standard... in a one meter perimeter around me ;)
2020-08-04T14:02:19Z galex-713: gnu clisp has got some history, I’m happy of that
2020-08-04T14:02:20Z galex-713: thought it was to invent saass, so it’s a ironic sad story
2020-08-04T14:02:28Z galex-713: when will i/o come'
2020-08-04T14:02:28Z galex-713: *?
2020-08-04T14:02:34Z jcowan: Racket is the largest Scheme in terms of innovations, libraries, and user base, but it is not particularly a source of ideas for other Schemes, nor does it easily take things from other Schemes.
2020-08-04T14:02:50Z galex-713: I mean, is there already something for pathnames and opening files/sockets standardized?
2020-08-04T14:03:00Z jcowan: Files yes, sockets no
2020-08-04T14:03:08Z galex-713: pathnames?
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2020-08-04T14:03:09Z jcowan: but all Schemes de facto have socket libs
2020-08-04T14:03:24Z galex-713: mit scheme follows cl, I find it neat
2020-08-04T14:03:30Z jcowan: So far we only have string pathnames, not pathname objects.
2020-08-04T14:03:43Z galex-713: ok
2020-08-04T14:03:51Z Riastradh: Not clear that `pathname objects' are really helpful in 2020, to be honest.
2020-08-04T14:03:53Z jcowan: I have a pre-SRFI for a pathname library
2020-08-04T14:04:08Z Riastradh: Maybe they were helpful in 1985.
2020-08-04T14:04:18Z Riastradh: (at least, the fully articulated ones in Common Lisp)
2020-08-04T14:04:19Z galex-713: Riastradh: well, not useful at all, probably… except you have the hope someone will invent OSes beyond UNIX
2020-08-04T14:04:23Z bitmapper: they are on cross-platform
2020-08-04T14:04:30Z galex-713: also there are still some retro guys wanting to revive old platforms
2020-08-04T14:04:38Z bitmapper: if you want to write software that runs on windows/unix
2020-08-04T14:04:52Z galex-713: jcowan: compatible with cl? or different? for what?
2020-08-04T14:05:06Z galex-713: bitmapper: no, windows supports / as pathname separator
2020-08-04T14:05:12Z jcowan: I'm using the simplified Python approach of drive, root, and path internally, with some helpful procedures
2020-08-04T14:05:22Z galex-713: but some higher-level parts don’t
2020-08-04T14:05:28Z jcowan nods
2020-08-04T14:05:49Z galex-713: jcowan: oh… looks less powerful, like just a windows-ism :c
2020-08-04T14:06:20Z galex-713: maybe I’m the only one thinking like that and it’s stupid… but cl pathname seems comprehensive enough to maybe support URLs
2020-08-04T14:06:22Z galex-713: and then URIs
2020-08-04T14:06:42Z zig: galex-713: I got to go, I hope to see you again around here :)
2020-08-04T14:06:44Z galex-713: enabling transparent support of streamed (like tcp) network as if it was a file
2020-08-04T14:06:44Z Riastradh: Shoe-horning URIs into CL pathnames sounds painful.
2020-08-04T14:06:55Z galex-713: zig: it’s nice, you too, bye :)
2020-08-04T14:07:05Z Riastradh: jcowan: Sounds reasonable.
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2020-08-04T14:07:42Z galex-713: Riastradh: cl pathnames are just a standard API, what would be important is to implement something decent on that ground
2020-08-04T14:07:54Z galex-713: for instance, you could implement sxpath on top of cl pathname objects
2020-08-04T14:08:05Z galex-713: and get sxpath work over the network
2020-08-04T14:08:58Z galex-713: well xpath is slightly more powerful than cl-pathname objects, you couldn’t translate 1-to-1, you’d need something to support some kind of conditionals xpath supports
2020-08-04T14:09:04Z galex-713: but I think it’s doable
2020-08-04T14:09:54Z galex-713: I would find that so beautiful if a fully networked language could be easily built on top of sxpath which would build upon something as old as 1978, supporting the most powerful OSes of that time (some of which having features that current one lack)
2020-08-04T14:09:58Z galex-713: *current ones
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2020-08-04T14:20:07Z jcowan: Here are some examples of parsing using my proposal: in the results, car is drive, cadr is root, cddr is parts of the path:
2020-08-04T14:20:19Z jcowan: (parse-posix-pathname "/etc/passwd) => ("" "/" "etc" "passwd"
2020-08-04T14:20:19Z jcowan: (parse-posix-pathname "foo") => ("" "" "foo")
2020-08-04T14:20:19Z jcowan: (parse-posix-pathname "//foo/bar/baz") => ("//foo/bar" "/" "baz")
2020-08-04T14:20:19Z jcowan: (parse-windows-pathname "C:\\Windows) => ("c:" "/" "Windows")
2020-08-04T14:20:19Z jcowan: (parse-windows-pathname "\\\\host\\share\\dir\\file") => ("//host/share" "/" "dir" "file")
2020-08-04T14:20:19Z jcowan: (parse-windows-pathname "foo") => ("" "" "foo")
2020-08-04T14:20:19Z jcowan: (parse-windows-pathname "C:foo")) => ("C:" "" "foo")
2020-08-04T14:20:39Z jcowan: ~done~
2020-08-04T14:21:05Z jcowan: parse-windows-pathname will work with slashes too
2020-08-04T14:21:48Z jcowan: LPNs are not distinct, but there is a predicate path-portable? that tells you if a path object has anything problematic about it.
2020-08-04T14:21:58Z Riastradh: Why "//foo/bar/baz" -> ("//foo/bar" "/" "baz")?
2020-08-04T14:22:21Z jcowan: Because that is how UNC paths work
2020-08-04T14:22:36Z jcowan: share named "bar" on host "foo"
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2020-08-04T14:23:12Z Riastradh: ???
2020-08-04T14:23:13Z Riastradh: posix?
2020-08-04T14:23:33Z jcowan: Posix allows double-slash to have special semantics, and AFAIK that is the only special semantics it is ever given
2020-08-04T14:23:40Z jcowan: (initial //, that is)
2020-08-04T14:24:15Z Riastradh: Who gives it that semantics?
2020-08-04T14:25:56Z jcowan: Cygwin for one, but some other places I can't remember offhand
2020-08-04T14:26:12Z Riastradh: Sounds like it should be parse-unc-pathname, not parse-posix-pathname.
2020-08-04T14:27:23Z jcowan: Could be.  Or I might drop it.  But it doesn't hurt anything to have it there.  Few people create paths beginning with "//" and assume they will be equivalent to "/", though it sometimes happens from bad pathname merging.
2020-08-04T14:27:38Z jcowan: (which is one reason to have a library)
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2020-08-04T15:15:54Z jcowan: Am I right to think that call/cc is an effect?
2020-08-04T15:19:55Z Riastradh: yes
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2020-08-04T16:47:42Z jcowan: Does that also mean that multiple values are an effect?
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2020-08-04T16:51:21Z gwatt: Is call/cc an effect if you only use it as an escape?
2020-08-04T16:54:09Z Riastradh: no
2020-08-04T16:54:10Z Riastradh: yes
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2020-08-04T17:17:53Z weinholt: hmm, funny. did "cd //tmp" in bash and pwd says //tmp... how obscure!
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2020-08-04T17:27:02Z uplime: weinholt: thats expected
2020-08-04T17:27:11Z uplime: consecutive /'s become one /
2020-08-04T17:28:18Z uplime: https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/1919
2020-08-04T17:28:19Z gwatt: uplime: apparently a leading "//" is special and is preserved
2020-08-04T17:28:53Z uplime: in certain cases yeah, I think it can refer to things like a mounted/network filesystem
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2020-08-04T17:31:44Z lisbeths: are macros part of the scheme standard?
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2020-08-04T17:32:56Z zaifir: lisbeths: Yes, since R5RS.
2020-08-04T17:33:08Z lisbeths: and is the syntax to that standardized?
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2020-08-04T17:33:20Z lisbeths: s/that/R5RS macros/
2020-08-04T17:33:22Z zaifir: lisbeths: syntax-rules is.
2020-08-04T17:33:42Z lisbeths: is there a book which helps you to implement R5RS
2020-08-04T17:33:53Z zaifir: lisbeths: What do you mean?
2020-08-04T17:34:13Z lisbeths: well I am having trouble understanding some of the internals of scheme and i would like to implement it in c but not support my implementation
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2020-08-04T17:37:50Z zaifir: lisbeths: What specifically are you having trouble with?
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2020-08-04T17:40:45Z lisbeths:  I am trying to understand how macros work in chicken scheme in a way that is portable to other r5rs schemes
2020-08-04T17:41:05Z lisbeths: I understand what a macro is supposed to do: it takes an s expression, transforms it into another s expression, then evaluates it
2020-08-04T17:43:54Z lisbeths: I guess what I need is two or three very thorough guides on r5rs compliant macros
2020-08-04T17:44:01Z lisbeths: so that I can look through those guides and ask questions about them in here
2020-08-04T17:47:25Z zaifir: lisbeths: Side note: just use R7.
2020-08-04T17:47:44Z lisbeths: ah I see that works just fine for me
2020-08-04T17:47:51Z zaifir: lisbeths: This is a tough issue.  There isn't a whole lot written about *implementing* syntax-rules out there.
2020-08-04T17:47:59Z lisbeths: one question I guess I have is that obviously an input s-expression can be thought of as a 'string'
2020-08-04T17:48:13Z zaifir: lisbeths: It's probably best to start with Friedman, et al's paper on hygienic macro expansion.
2020-08-04T17:49:05Z lisbeths: so if I think about it as matching within a string, and I am looking for a piece of syntax lets say "<!-- " as an example, what I assume that it would do to a string like "foo<!-- foo" is that it would excute whatever foo does, then it would expand the <!-- macro, then execute whatever foo does afterwards
2020-08-04T17:49:19Z lisbeths: but it confuses me like waht if I have something like "(+ <!-- 5)"
2020-08-04T17:49:59Z lisbeths: in other words I am curious how to define rules for expanding before evaluation, and what the rules for defining those rules are
2020-08-04T17:50:15Z lisbeths: I am reading this here, and I hope that's suitable: https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/4/The%20R5RS%20standard#macros
2020-08-04T17:50:37Z zaifir: lisbeths: Ouch.  So what's the difference between your macro expander and your interpreter, if they're running at the same time and determining what to expand/interpret (same thing)?
2020-08-04T17:52:47Z lisbeths: well what I gather if I am using a JIT scheme, is that it reads text, it expands that text into scheme, it compiles that scheme into machine code, it evaluates that machine code, then it loops back to read
2020-08-04T17:53:49Z lisbeths: like reecpl, read -> expand -> compile -> evaluate -> loop
2020-08-04T17:55:59Z zaifir: lisbeths: OK.  But you seemed to be talking about conditional runtime expansion based on the results of evaluating (expanded) expressions.
2020-08-04T17:56:50Z zaifir: lisbeths: That does make sense, and it's quite plausible to implement, although doing hygienically sounds horribly difficult.
2020-08-04T17:56:59Z zaifir: s/doing/doing so/
2020-08-04T17:57:00Z lisbeths: well I am hoping if I can learn R7 macros then I will not need to implement my scheme, so I am just assuming that that is how chicken works
2020-08-04T17:57:22Z zaifir: lisbeths: In Scheme, all expansion happens before evaluation.
2020-08-04T17:57:23Z lisbeths: rather I would assume chicken is a JIT and not an interpreter, though I do not know if thats true. It seems that if chicken is a JIT it would expand THEN compile
2020-08-04T17:57:33Z zaifir: lisbeths: csi isn't a JIT.
2020-08-04T17:57:50Z lisbeths: ah so then csi doesn't have compiled speeds?
2020-08-04T17:58:19Z Riastradh: csi is a tree interpreter; csc is an ahead-of-time compiler.
2020-08-04T17:58:40Z zaifir: Every compiler is a JIT if you type fast enough.
2020-08-04T17:58:46Z lisbeths: false
2020-08-04T17:59:19Z lisbeths: even if you typed at the speed of how quickly a computer can read from a file the interpreted code sohuld not execute as quickly as a compiled variant of that code, in part because compilers can optimize
2020-08-04T17:59:36Z wasamasa: CHICKEN uses alexpander, a macro expander written in scheme
2020-08-04T17:59:38Z zaifir: I kid.
2020-08-04T17:59:45Z lisbeths: its okay though i am not worried that csi is interpreted because a JIT for chicken can be implemented one day etc
2020-08-04T17:59:56Z zaifir: Why do you need a JIT?
2020-08-04T17:59:56Z lisbeths: the speed is tangential to my question
2020-08-04T17:59:59Z wasamasa: so study that thing
2020-08-04T18:00:02Z gwatt: for small programs, chez actually executes faster from the source code than from a compiled version
2020-08-04T18:00:21Z zaifir: lisbeths: Good.
2020-08-04T18:00:37Z zaifir: lisbeths: It seems like you want to interleave expansion and evaluation.
2020-08-04T18:00:44Z lisbeths: not exactly I mean
2020-08-04T18:01:14Z lisbeths: I would like to be able to add any arbitrary syntax rules I would like into r7 scheme that way I don't have to continually come in here and beg for someone to write macros for me
2020-08-04T18:01:32Z lisbeths: an example is how I might right infix notation for addition
2020-08-04T18:01:53Z lisbeths: just because that is a simple example and one who's resulting syntax I already understand
2020-08-04T18:01:57Z gwatt: is r7 a scheme implementation shorthand for r7rs?
2020-08-04T18:02:14Z lisbeths: yes I suppose. someone named it to me as r7 previously
2020-08-04T18:02:21Z wasamasa: if you're talking about unhygienic macros, these you won't get easily in scheme :P
2020-08-04T18:02:32Z zaifir: lisbeths: So... you'd like a reference for writing Scheme macros?
2020-08-04T18:02:42Z zaifir: lisbeths: Have you seen JRM's syntax-rules tutorial?
2020-08-04T18:02:48Z lisbeths: no pls link
2020-08-04T18:03:03Z lisbeths: essentially yes I have trouble learning the syntax of doing a thing in coding if there's not exact examples which I can parse
2020-08-04T18:03:11Z zaifir: lisbeths: http://ix.io/2q9Z
2020-08-04T18:04:03Z zaifir: lisbeths: Many Schemes provide some flavor of unhygienic macros, though few provide something like defmacro.
2020-08-04T18:05:03Z zaifir: lisbeths: But it's important to understand what hygienic macros guard against before pulling out lower-level stuff, IMHO.
2020-08-04T18:06:41Z lisbeths: so if you don't mind I think directly asking questions about his code is the most succinct way to understand it
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2020-08-04T18:07:13Z lisbeths: I begin parsing his code by seeing the function define-syntax, and see that it takes at least two arguments. I assume one is the binding and one is the body, is that correct?
2020-08-04T18:07:33Z wasamasa: that kind of question is best answered by just looking at the standard
2020-08-04T18:07:46Z lisbeths: ok should I like at r5rs or r7rs
2020-08-04T18:07:54Z wasamasa: here's a slightly less ambitious tutorial: http://www.willdonnelly.net/blog/scheme-syntax-rules/
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2020-08-04T18:08:29Z wasamasa: r7rs-small and r5rs should be the same with regards to syntax-rules
2020-08-04T18:08:47Z wasamasa: r7rs-large might gain extra macro systems
2020-08-04T18:10:02Z zaifir: R7RS adds the choose-your-own-ellipsis feature, but otherwise I think they're the same.
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2020-08-04T18:10:17Z wasamasa: funny feature
2020-08-04T18:10:19Z zaifir: lisbeths: define-syntax is a special form, not a function.
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2020-08-04T18:16:47Z galex-713: jcowan: I didn’t get it… what’s the meaning (unc?) of //?
2020-08-04T18:17:55Z lisbeths: ok that guide made alot more sense: http://www.willdonnelly.net/blog/scheme-syntax-rules/
2020-08-04T18:23:29Z lisbeths: so for the second argument to define-syntax is it possible for this to be a non-typable character such as a literal newline character?
2020-08-04T18:23:33Z lisbeths: or even a space character
2020-08-04T18:26:25Z zaifir: lisbeths: The second argument to define-syntax is the syntax-rules transformer.
2020-08-04T18:26:44Z lisbeths: err sorry I meant the first argument
2020-08-04T18:27:03Z wasamasa: that's again something best answered by looking at the standard
2020-08-04T18:27:39Z zaifir: lisbeths: The name is an identifier.  Consult R7RS 2.1.
2020-08-04T18:28:13Z zaifir: lisbeths: You'd have to use |<newline>|, but that's probably a bad idea.
2020-08-04T18:28:50Z wasamasa: hm, does the grammar even allow this
2020-08-04T18:29:23Z wasamasa: it says a keyword is an identifier is a sequence of initial followed by subsequents or a peculiar identifier
2020-08-04T18:29:48Z wasamasa: but then I'm looking at r5rs
2020-08-04T18:30:11Z zaifir: I think it does.  "|...|" excludes "vertical line characters".  I'm not sure whether that means \n or not.
2020-08-04T18:30:17Z wasamasa: which doesn't have |...| syntax
2020-08-04T18:30:31Z zaifir: Yeah, R5 is no help here.
2020-08-04T18:30:34Z lisbeths: I would prefer a syntax where I could just type a string and have it use that string
2020-08-04T18:30:43Z lisbeths: then there could be zero confusion
2020-08-04T18:30:51Z zaifir: lisbeths: You can see how that would be a parsing problem, yes?
2020-08-04T18:30:56Z gwatt: lisbeths: why do you want to use nonstandard characters as identifiers?
2020-08-04T18:31:14Z wasamasa: we're not dealing with tcl, bash or the C preprocessor here
2020-08-04T18:31:19Z lisbeths: if you used "space" as an identifier, for example, you would have to enter a abnormal-lisp-mode and havea function which exits out into normal-lisp-mode
2020-08-04T18:31:21Z wasamasa: thankfully
2020-08-04T18:31:26Z lisbeths: so in normal-lisp you can not use space as an identifier
2020-08-04T18:31:29Z wasamasa: or tex :D
2020-08-04T18:31:44Z lisbeths: but if I am writing an entire DSL then I can use space as an identifier and have an identifier wihch alls a function that exits to normal lisp evaluation
2020-08-04T18:31:59Z wasamasa: tex allows changing the meaning of character codes at runtime
2020-08-04T18:32:01Z lisbeths: in other words I would have a macro which is conditionally expanded
2020-08-04T18:32:27Z lisbeths: if the conditional returned false it would not expand a space character and would pass over it as normal lisp, but if the conditional returned true it would expand space character into my dsl
2020-08-04T18:33:23Z zaifir: lisbeths: You'll want to write your own parser, then.
2020-08-04T18:33:33Z lisbeths: basically I want to make a bsd version of the wisp programming language, which is a macro for scheme
2020-08-04T18:33:51Z lisbeths: and I am also going to add javascript dot notation with the convention of a global object which can be dug into
2020-08-04T18:33:53Z wasamasa: but it's not, lol
2020-08-04T18:33:57Z lisbeths: hmm?
2020-08-04T18:34:07Z wasamasa: wisp is clojure-style syntax for JS
2020-08-04T18:34:17Z lisbeths: ah well I am going to make it a macro for scheme
2020-08-04T18:34:29Z wasamasa: what's the point?
2020-08-04T18:34:46Z zaifir: wasamasa: https://blog.geocities.institute/
2020-08-04T18:34:50Z lisbeths: because I prefer python notation to parentheses, and because i want to be able to access objects with using a hash table and dot notation lik ein javascript
2020-08-04T18:34:51Z wasamasa: why do you want to give clojure-style syntax to something already very close to clojure?
2020-08-04T18:34:55Z zaifir: Oops, wrong clipboard.
2020-08-04T18:34:59Z wasamasa: lol
2020-08-04T18:35:16Z zaifir: wasamasa: It is a macro for Scheme: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-119/
2020-08-04T18:35:27Z wasamasa: oh, that tyre fire
2020-08-04T18:35:44Z wasamasa: here's what I meant: https://github.com/Gozala/wisp
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2020-08-04T18:35:46Z zaifir: Someone snarfed the name for the Clojurian Empire.
2020-08-04T18:36:02Z lisbeths: what exactly is an "SFRI"
2020-08-04T18:36:09Z wasamasa: it's like a PEP
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2020-08-04T18:36:19Z lisbeths: SRFI
2020-08-04T18:36:24Z zaifir: lisbeths: They're portable specs with implementations.
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2020-08-04T18:36:40Z lisbeths: if I use the SRFI which was just linked am I required to license my code to their license?
2020-08-04T18:37:01Z wasamasa: license compatibility doesn't require relicensing usually
2020-08-04T18:37:05Z zaifir: lisbeths: Read srfi.schemers.org.  They're pretty clear on the license terms.
2020-08-04T18:37:09Z zaifir: lisbeths: It's MIT/X.
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2020-08-04T18:37:25Z wasamasa: it just requires complying with the licensing terms, like keeping copyright statements intact
2020-08-04T18:37:31Z lisbeths: well I mean. I am looking for my code to be kind of like lgbl, and I want people to be able to relicense the code that I make
2020-08-04T18:37:39Z lisbeths: cause my code is bsd
2020-08-04T18:37:45Z wasamasa: wat
2020-08-04T18:38:00Z lisbeths: bsd allows you to relicense the code. for example when the macintosh relicensed freebsd
2020-08-04T18:38:27Z lisbeths: instead of a universal reciever like gpl, bsd is a universal donor
2020-08-04T18:39:15Z zaifir: lisbeths: Can we please not start that discussion?
2020-08-04T18:39:25Z wasamasa: yeah, keep legal nonsense out of here
2020-08-04T18:39:42Z lisbeths: i am not trying to start the discussion I am simply wondering if I shall have to re-implement it
2020-08-04T18:39:51Z wasamasa: you most certainly have to anyway
2020-08-04T18:40:02Z wasamasa: this thing requires something like a programmable reader
2020-08-04T18:40:09Z lisbeths:  I see, so then we return to my origioinal query about macros
2020-08-04T18:40:15Z wasamasa: or read-time macros
2020-08-04T18:40:27Z wasamasa: which are an entirely different beast from compile-time macros
2020-08-04T18:40:44Z lisbeths: in which situation would I want to use read-time macros and in which situation would I want to use compile-time?
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2020-08-04T18:41:14Z wasamasa: you asked how to make letters do different things, that's an application for read-time macros
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2020-08-04T18:41:29Z wasamasa: because at read-time they'll generate a different AST than you'd normally have
2020-08-04T18:42:04Z lisbeths: does csi in chicken have read-time macros?
2020-08-04T18:42:19Z wasamasa: I recommend you to take a long look at the manual
2020-08-04T18:42:35Z lisbeths: yes but then if the solution is always to look at the manual then I wouldn't ever come into #scheme for support
2020-08-04T18:42:46Z wasamasa: no, you'd come into #scheme for actually interesting questions
2020-08-04T18:43:02Z wasamasa: and we'd spend less time quoting the manual for you
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2020-08-04T18:43:35Z lisbeths: who defines what is interesting? If 1. there are no other support questions going on, 2. there is no other discussion going on, and 3. I am being polite and following directions, then there is no reason for me not ot ask my query
2020-08-04T18:43:45Z lisbeths: you are not required to answer my question, wasamasa, I did not request your help personally
2020-08-04T18:44:06Z lisbeths: if you consider it a waste of your time, do not help, and if you can demonstratin that I am obstructing an already exisitng chat or support question please let me know
2020-08-04T18:44:43Z lisbeths is just a bigginer to scheme asking quesitons about scheme macros and how they relate to their implementations
2020-08-04T18:45:11Z lisbeths: often times technical documentation is way harder for me to understand than documents like: http://www.willdonnelly.net/blog/scheme-syntax-rules/
2020-08-04T18:45:48Z lisbeths: if I actually implemented an r7rs scheme from bottom to top and you supported me in doing this process then I would have zero questions about r7rs like how you wanted
2020-08-04T18:46:13Z lisbeths: that was my origional query: to find a document teaching how to implement scheme
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2020-08-04T18:51:16Z wasamasa: don't hold your breath for there being a single document answering every single of your questions
2020-08-04T18:51:24Z wasamasa: the closest one is https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours
2020-08-04T18:51:34Z wasamasa: it's for r5rs and conveniently omits the trickier parts
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2020-08-04T18:51:49Z wasamasa: like doing continuations and macros :P
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2020-08-04T18:53:24Z wasamasa: and that's fine, it's about the educational value, not about 100% completion or writing something actually useful for daily work
2020-08-04T18:55:26Z lisbeths: I think if I simply worked through the link you just wrote, as well as https://small.r7rs.org/attachment/r7rs.pdf then my questions would drop to a much smaller subcategory of questions
2020-08-04T18:55:37Z lisbeths: but I would have to recurisvely ask a question each time I found something in the manual that I did not understand
2020-08-04T18:55:38Z wasamasa: yeah, but I doubt it will happen :P
2020-08-04T18:55:51Z wasamasa: simply because the tutorial is using haskell
2020-08-04T18:56:08Z lisbeths: well I am gonna write mine in either c or javascript
2020-08-04T18:56:15Z lisbeths: so I will just use https://small.r7rs.org/attachment/r7rs.pdf
2020-08-04T18:56:30Z lisbeths: so long as I am permitted to recurisvely ask quesitons when I encounter something in the stnadard that I do not understand
2020-08-04T18:56:37Z lisbeths: so that I understand the document from beginning to end in purity
2020-08-04T18:56:46Z lisbeths: and that would solve nearly all of my questions till the end of time
2020-08-04T18:57:40Z wasamasa: there are other books exploring implementing lisp in general, focusing on various aspects of the implementation
2020-08-04T18:57:50Z wasamasa: none of these target the latest standard for obvious reasons
2020-08-04T18:58:31Z lisbeths: would you prefer I target a less late standard?
2020-08-04T18:58:45Z lisbeths: I respect you wasamasa, I intend only to follow your advice where logistically possible
2020-08-04T18:58:51Z wasamasa: I would prefer studying code instead of lofty ideas
2020-08-04T18:59:15Z lisbeths: implementing r5rs or r7rs would end a huge number of my scheme queries because most of my queries are answered by the specification
2020-08-04T18:59:52Z wasamasa: SICP and Lisp in Small Pieces are the classics, Nils Holm wrote a few books on the topic as well
2020-08-04T19:00:01Z wasamasa: and there's always the option of studying existing implementations
2020-08-04T19:00:32Z lisbeths: r5rs and r7rs should give me similar understanding to SICP. I have the pdfs to all three downloaded
2020-08-04T19:01:33Z wasamasa: all I advise is to not insist on 100% completion
2020-08-04T19:02:32Z wasamasa: even doing this implementation thing badly teaches you far more than getting discouraged and giving up because 100% seems unreachable
2020-08-04T19:03:43Z lisbeths: indeed something like 80% is unreasonable. obviously some parts of the specification are not useful or worth investigating.
2020-08-04T19:04:01Z lisbeths: That being said I think it is reasonable to implement r5rs to avoid future questions which are unnecessary
2020-08-04T19:04:07Z lisbeths: especially because my questioning is recursive
2020-08-04T19:05:36Z lisbeths: I am simply curious do you find it more reasonable to try to implement r5rs or r7rs
2020-08-04T19:05:56Z wasamasa: I'd go for r5rs because there's more material about it
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2020-08-04T19:06:10Z wasamasa: and less to implement
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2020-08-04T19:06:53Z wasamasa: r7rs adds some extra constraints that help with solving real-world tasks, like having a TAI-compliant clock
2020-08-04T19:07:09Z lisbeths: indeed, thank you I will.
2020-08-04T19:09:07Z wasamasa: or exception handling (but at least they give you a macro implementation)
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2020-08-04T19:10:46Z wasamasa: take a look at appendix b for the full list
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2020-08-05T04:08:16Z peanutbutterandc: Regarding SICP, how would you recommend that one read it, along with the lectures? Would you recommend that one first watch a lecture and then read a corresponding chapter, or would you recommend one to read a chapter first and then watch the lectures?
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2020-08-05T04:16:58Z lisbeths: what exactly is the difference between an identifier and a symbol
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2020-08-05T04:28:52Z mdhughes: peanutbutterandc: Yes, mix the lecture and chapters, and do all the problems you can. The book's changed some, but the talk will prepare you for what you're reading.
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2020-08-05T04:31:32Z peanutbutterandc: mdhughes, Thank you very much
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2020-08-05T05:33:26Z jcowan: lisbeths: A symbol is a run-time object, an identifier is part of the Scheme language.
2020-08-05T05:34:13Z jcowan: The representation of identifiers in source code are symbols, but the first order of business is to change them into something that's not a symbol in order to make macro expansion straightforward.  At least according to some systems of macro expansion.
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2020-08-05T05:50:49Z erkin: I found out that (define-values () (values)) is not an error.
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2020-08-05T05:51:06Z erkin: Okay, it's implementation-dependent.
2020-08-05T05:51:24Z erkin: Gauche treats it as an error whereas CHICKEN, Guile and Racket accept it.
2020-08-05T05:51:54Z erkin: It makes sense as `define-values' takes an arbitrary number of definitions (possibly including zero) whereas `define' is strictly one definition.
2020-08-05T05:52:52Z zaifir: Well, the first parameter of define-values is a <formals> list, and those can be empty.
2020-08-05T05:53:53Z zaifir: Seems like it shouldn't be an error.
2020-08-05T05:54:23Z erkin: Theoretically, the number of identifiers it can take should match that of `values'.
2020-08-05T05:54:53Z erkin: The only place I can see this being useful is in macros.
2020-08-05T05:55:11Z zaifir: erkin: Not necessarily.  (define-values vals (values 1 2 3)) should work.
2020-08-05T05:57:30Z zaifir: I mean, the coarity of the values expression should match the formals list in the usual lambda way.
2020-08-05T05:59:01Z jcowan: "In the Usual Way, Pooh, if you know what I mean."
2020-08-05T06:03:28Z erkin: zaifir: Fairly sure that's also implementation dependent.
2020-08-05T06:03:47Z erkin: Racket considers it an error.
2020-08-05T06:07:45Z zaifir: erkin: R7RS allows it, AFAICT.  Ditto (define-values (foo . bars) (values 1 2 3)), etc.
2020-08-05T06:07:50Z zaifir: So that's bogus, Racket.
2020-08-05T06:10:50Z zaifir: R7RS S 5.3.3  (define-values <formals> <expression>) "Semantics: ⟨Expression⟩ is evaluated, and the ⟨formals⟩ are bound to the return values in the same way that the ⟨formals⟩ in a lambda expression are matched to the arguments in a procedure call."
2020-08-05T06:13:06Z erkin: Interesting.
2020-08-05T06:13:18Z erkin: It's a shame R6RS never defines a `define-values'.
2020-08-05T06:13:27Z zaifir: Yeah.
2020-08-05T06:20:57Z mdhughes: It is in Chez, tho. (define-values formals expr), and formals () gives Exception in define-values: incorrect number of values from rhs
2020-08-05T06:21:27Z jcowan: so it is not, strictly speaking, a lambda-list at all.  That sucks.
2020-08-05T06:22:49Z erkin: Maybe they'd accept a patch for it?
2020-08-05T06:23:27Z erkin: I reckon `define-values' was defined in terms of `syntax-case' so it shouldn't be too difficult.
2020-08-05T06:23:28Z mdhughes: It might be useful to have a dynamic list in front, but mostly values size is small and fixed, so why not map it to precise names?
2020-08-05T06:23:49Z erkin: Although I believe Racket defines `define' as a special case of `define-values'.
2020-08-05T06:25:32Z zaifir: If you're going to provide both let-values (which has lambda lists) and define-values, they'd better be symmetric.
2020-08-05T06:26:09Z erkin: Hmm, yeah.
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2020-08-05T06:26:28Z erkin: (let-values ((() (values))) 'foo) is valid in Racket.
2020-08-05T06:26:43Z zaifir: So Racket is inconsistent here.
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2020-08-05T06:27:00Z erkin: Oh no wait, Racket does accept (define-values () (values)).
2020-08-05T06:27:19Z erkin: Racket is internally consistent in that it doesn't accept rest arguments but accepts an empty arglist.
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2020-08-05T06:27:46Z zaifir: Really, it doesn't accept (x . xs)?
2020-08-05T06:27:51Z erkin: Yeah
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2020-08-05T06:28:09Z erkin: (let-values (((head . tail) (values 1 2 3)) (rest (values 1 2 3))) 'foo) contains two errors.
2020-08-05T06:28:42Z zaifir: Maybe it's related to Racket's keyword system.
2020-08-05T06:28:49Z erkin: Hmm
2020-08-05T06:29:02Z zaifir won't try to fathom the Racket Way.
2020-08-05T06:29:13Z erkin: Yeah, Racket is so weird under the hood.
2020-08-05T06:29:41Z erkin: I think it inherits a lot of core Scheme primitives directly from Chez now.
2020-08-05T06:31:00Z zaifir: Does (define-values (foo . rest) (values 1 2)) or similar work in Chez?  I don't have it on this machine.
2020-08-05T06:32:30Z erkin: I don't have it here either. I'm on my brother's PC and Fedora doesn't seem to carry Chez in repos.
2020-08-05T06:33:38Z mdhughes: zaifir: Sure, that works. It's just the no-dot version that's invalid.
2020-08-05T06:35:24Z mdhughes: Also you can do the usual values->list hack: (define-values rest (values 1 2 3))
2020-08-05T06:35:25Z zaifir: mdhughes: Thanks.  That's odd.
2020-08-05T06:36:25Z zaifir: Right.  But (define-values () (values)) doesn't work.
2020-08-05T06:37:34Z mdhughes: It does, actually, but that's pointless. Nothin is nothin.
2020-08-05T06:38:17Z erkin: It could be useful in macros.
2020-08-05T06:38:19Z zaifir: Oh, then Chez's define-values is fine.
2020-08-05T06:39:04Z mdhughes: Hopefully you'd test null? and not try defining nothin…
2020-08-05T06:39:04Z zaifir: The point was not to do pointless things, but to see if define-values actually gets lambda-list treatment.
2020-08-05T06:39:31Z zaifir: (nothing? 'Nothin) ; => #f
2020-08-05T06:39:51Z zaifir wishes for postfix quote so as to write Nothin'
2020-08-05T06:40:00Z erkin: Nothin:
2020-08-05T06:42:55Z mdhughes: (define nothin' '())
2020-08-05T06:43:16Z mdhughes: But it dumps an extra ' in the next read prompt.
2020-08-05T06:50:01Z erkin: (define |nothin'| '()) there
2020-08-05T06:50:33Z erkin: I was surprised to see that the |foo| syntax appears in the very first reports.
2020-08-05T06:50:42Z erkin: I thought it was a 21st century invention.
2020-08-05T06:51:03Z erkin: (Well, I know CL also has it, I mean its inclusion to Scheme.)
2020-08-05T06:57:56Z zig: millenials...
2020-08-05T07:04:49Z jcowan: It existed in R0RS and R1RS because they were embedded in Maclisp, which already had the convention.
2020-08-05T07:05:03Z jcowan: Basically at that time Scheme was a Maclisp DSL.
2020-08-05T07:05:17Z jcowan: so all the functions had Maclisp names, only the syntax keywords were different.
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2020-08-05T13:14:34Z lisbeths: hmm was that visible?
2020-08-05T13:15:04Z lisbeths: also, is there a difference between an identifier and a symbol?
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2020-08-05T13:36:19Z lisbeths: I think that there isn't a difference.
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2020-08-05T13:36:36Z lisbeths: so if someone gets mad at me for interchanging a symbol or an identifier I will not feel sympathy
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2020-08-05T13:50:33Z gwatt: lisbeths: I think they're the same thing from different directions. You can take anything that's a valid identifier and put it inside (quote ...) and it becomes a symbol.
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2020-08-05T14:02:00Z Oxyd: An identifier is either a symbol or an alias. An alias is a syntactic closure whose expression is a symbol. I don't know whether these terms have any meaning outside of context of syntactic closures.
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2020-08-05T14:09:33Z Oxyd: Oh, actually there's also the lexical view: An identifier is a sequence of characters; a symbol is an object.
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2020-08-05T14:45:24Z zig: I consider for me identifier is the name given to a variable containing an object that is possibly a symbol
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2020-08-05T15:24:19Z lisbeths: is let* the same as lexical-let in emacs?
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2020-08-05T15:26:56Z gwatt: (let* ((a 1) (b (+ a 1))) (+ a b)) is the same as (let ((a 1)) (let ((b (+ a 1))) (+ a b)))
2020-08-05T15:28:50Z lisbeths: ah
2020-08-05T15:28:53Z lisbeths: so then letrec is lexical-let?
2020-08-05T15:29:07Z Riastradh: no
2020-08-05T15:29:11Z Riastradh: lexical-let is just let
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2020-08-05T15:29:14Z lisbeths: what does letrec do
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2020-08-05T15:31:48Z gwatt: It allows procedure bodies in the bindings part of the form to refer to identifiers introduced in the bindings.
2020-08-05T15:32:20Z gwatt: https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_132
2020-08-05T15:32:36Z lisbeths: so I can't do (let foo (lambda () (foo)) (foo))
2020-08-05T15:32:42Z lisbeths: I am reading r5rs now
2020-08-05T15:33:03Z lisbeths: I have made it all the way to letrec without having any questions besides what is an identifier, what is let*, and what is letrec
2020-08-05T15:33:12Z lisbeths: I am on section 4/7
2020-08-05T15:35:04Z wasamasa: lexical-let is an impressive hack in emacs to work around emacs having dynamic binding for most of its lifetime
2020-08-05T15:35:37Z lisbeths: sure. I took your advise wasamasa and I am half through r5rs and have understood alomst all of it.
2020-08-05T15:35:51Z wasamasa: it's better explained in Stefan Monnier's paper
2020-08-05T15:35:52Z lisbeths: Though I think if it was just a year or two earlier I wouldnt ahve understood it
2020-08-05T15:36:07Z wasamasa: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~monnier/hopl-4-emacs-lisp.pdf
2020-08-05T15:36:08Z lisbeths: well I dont need to know how lexical let is implemented, I just need to know the usage of letrec
2020-08-05T15:36:25Z lisbeths: why is letrec necessary in r5rs
2020-08-05T15:36:27Z wasamasa: letrec allows your let bindings to refer to each other
2020-08-05T15:36:31Z Riastradh: wasamasa: I'm not sure the grody details of how the obsolete lexical-let got hacked into Emacs are terribly helpful at present!
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2020-08-05T15:36:51Z Riastradh: lisbeths: (let ((foo (lambda () (foo)))) (foo)) does not work, correct, because there's no `foo' in the environment where (lambda () (foo)) is evaluated.
2020-08-05T15:36:55Z lisbeths: lexical-let was necessary I think to make a subset of common lisp work in emacs. at least that is what I was told.
2020-08-05T15:36:56Z wasamasa: it's like doing (let ((foo #f) (bar #f)) (set! foo ...) (set! bar ...))
2020-08-05T15:37:17Z lisbeths: ah, now I understand letrec thanks
2020-08-05T15:37:23Z Riastradh: However, (letrec ((foo (lambda () (foo)))) (foo)) does work, because `foo' _is_ defined in the environment where (lambda () (foo)) is evaluated.
2020-08-05T15:37:27Z lisbeths: so let can only allow for binding of data not of functions
2020-08-05T15:37:36Z Riastradh: lisbeths: no
2020-08-05T15:37:38Z wasamasa: there's a paper explaining the details and how to optimize its implementation beyond that
2020-08-05T15:37:40Z Riastradh: let and letrec can both do functions.
2020-08-05T15:37:54Z Riastradh: What's different is whether the functions can refer to the newly bound variables or not.
2020-08-05T15:38:01Z Riastradh: With let, they cannot.  With letrec, they can.
2020-08-05T15:38:03Z lisbeths: ah
2020-08-05T15:38:18Z lisbeths: and does letrec work like let* in that I can define more than one variable in the let
2020-08-05T15:38:31Z Riastradh: let and letrec both let you bind multiple variables.
2020-08-05T15:38:32Z wasamasa: you'll see letrec in older scheme books where they don't use inner defines or named let
2020-08-05T15:38:45Z lisbeths: so what is the difference between let and let* because I've misunderstood
2020-08-05T15:38:57Z Riastradh: lisbeths: let* is sequential.
2020-08-05T15:39:02Z Riastradh: For example, you can do:
2020-08-05T15:39:05Z Riastradh: (let* ((x 5) (y x)) y)
2020-08-05T15:39:07Z Riastradh: and you will get 5.
2020-08-05T15:39:09Z Riastradh: But if you do
2020-08-05T15:39:14Z Riastradh: (let ((x 5) (y x)) y)
2020-08-05T15:39:33Z Riastradh: you will probably get an undefined variable error, because x is not defined yet when let tries to evaluate the expression for the new binding of y.
2020-08-05T15:39:42Z wasamasa: a cheap trick to implement let is to rewrite it into a lambda call
2020-08-05T15:39:48Z Riastradh: Of course, it's not just a difference between `works' and `doesn't work':
2020-08-05T15:39:53Z wasamasa: and likewise let* can be implemented as a set of nested let
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2020-08-05T15:40:00Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let ((x 3)) (let ((x 5) (y x)) y))
2020-08-05T15:40:01Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2020-08-05T15:40:02Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 3
2020-08-05T15:40:06Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let ((x 3)) (let* ((x 5) (y x)) y))
2020-08-05T15:40:06Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 5
2020-08-05T15:40:49Z lisbeths: so let* returns the value of the last thing defined?
2020-08-05T15:41:07Z lisbeths: oh wait I missed the final y)) nvm
2020-08-05T15:41:07Z Riastradh: No, it returns whatever is in the body.
2020-08-05T15:41:13Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let* ((x 5) (y x)) 'foobar)
2020-08-05T15:41:14Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 'foobar
2020-08-05T15:41:41Z wasamasa: https://web.archive.org/web/20181209062832/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html shows more examples from a CL perspective
2020-08-05T15:42:12Z lisbeths: It would help if your examples did not include let and let* in the same function call
2020-08-05T15:42:51Z lisbeths: Are you saying with let* that you can define something in terms of a previously defined variable within that let*
2020-08-05T15:43:24Z Riastradh: Yes.
2020-08-05T15:43:40Z lisbeths: I am fairly certain that is a similar differnce syntactically as let is to lexical-let in emacs but whatev
2020-08-05T15:43:45Z Riastradh: no
2020-08-05T15:43:54Z Riastradh: Scheme let is exactly the same as Emacs's obsolete lexical-let.
2020-08-05T15:44:00Z Riastradh: Scheme let* is exactly the same as Emacs's obsolete lexical-let*.
2020-08-05T15:44:08Z lisbeths: and letrec allows you to additionally have functions refer to previously defined variables in letrec
2020-08-05T15:44:21Z lisbeths: whereas with let* functions can not refer to data previously defined with let*
2020-08-05T15:44:24Z lisbeths: is that correct?
2020-08-05T15:44:28Z Riastradh: no
2020-08-05T15:44:49Z Riastradh: With letrec, functions on the right-hand sides can refer to _any_ of the variables defined elsewhere in the same letrec -- before or after.
2020-08-05T15:44:51Z lisbeths: I feel like I am not wording my definitions correctly or you are not parsing my definitions correctly, or I am parsing your definitions incorrectly
2020-08-05T15:45:05Z lisbeths: ah
2020-08-05T15:45:14Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (letrec ((even? (lambda (x) (or (zero? x) (odd? (- x 1))))) (odd? (lambda (x) (and (not (zero? x)) (even? (- x 1)))))) (odd? 9))
2020-08-05T15:45:14Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: #t
2020-08-05T15:45:17Z lisbeths: so letrec can refer to variables which were defined by previously defined variables in letrec
2020-08-05T15:45:49Z wasamasa: it can also refer to later variables
2020-08-05T15:45:54Z Riastradh: It doesn't matter what order you put them in, with let or with letrec.  It _does_ matter what order you put them in with let*.
2020-08-05T15:45:57Z rain1: not previously defined, simultaneously defined
2020-08-05T15:46:16Z lisbeths: so (let* ((foo 5) (foo (+ foo 1))) ((lambda (x) foo))) will not return 6?
2020-08-05T15:46:20Z Riastradh: lisbeths: When you say `previously defined', it sounds like you mean that later letrec bindings can refer to earlier letrec bindings, but not the other way around.
2020-08-05T15:46:34Z gwatt: lisbeths: the body of procedures defined in a letrec body can refer to any other identifier introduced by the letrec
2020-08-05T15:46:58Z gwatt: However, if you don't use the letrec to define proceduers it's identical to let
2020-08-05T15:47:43Z Riastradh: lisbeths: With let, you can't refer to _any_ of the new variables on the right-hand expressions.  With let*, you can use any of the previously defined variables but not the later defined variables.  With letrec, you can create functions that refer to _any_ of the variables, even mutually recursive as in the even/odd example above.
2020-08-05T15:48:15Z Riastradh: Here's what happens if you try to use let* in the place of letrec for the even/odd example:
2020-08-05T15:48:18Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let* ((even? (lambda (x) (or (zero? x) (odd? (- x 1))))) (odd? (lambda (x) (and (not (zero? x)) (even? (- x 1)))))) (odd? 9))
2020-08-05T15:48:19Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: #t
2020-08-05T15:48:21Z Riastradh: er
2020-08-05T15:48:24Z Riastradh: well
2020-08-05T15:48:30Z Riastradh: even? and odd? are standard procedures anyway, so let's call them something else, heh.
2020-08-05T15:48:42Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let* ((xxx-even? (lambda (x) (or (zero? x) (xxx-odd? (- x 1))))) (xxx-odd? (lambda (x) (and (not (zero? x)) (xxx-even? (- x 1)))))) (xxx-odd? 9))
2020-08-05T15:48:42Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: xxx-odd?: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2020-08-05T15:49:48Z Riastradh: Note that the error is _not_ that `xxx-even?' is undefined -- xxx-odd?'s lambda can refer to xxx-even? because xxx-even? came earlier in the let*.
2020-08-05T15:50:45Z wasamasa: one letrec pattern I've seen is for simulating modules/libraries
2020-08-05T15:50:57Z wasamasa: where each defined function may depend on an earlier or latter one
2020-08-05T15:53:57Z lisbeths: oIn your even-odd definition odd was called prior to it being defined, is that correct?
2020-08-05T15:54:09Z lisbeths: or it *seems* like that happened
2020-08-05T15:54:18Z Riastradh: lisbeths: It was not _called_, but it was _mentioned_ in a function.
2020-08-05T15:54:22Z lisbeths: yes
2020-08-05T15:54:24Z Riastradh: No call happened until the body of the letrec.
2020-08-05T15:54:25Z lisbeths: thats strange
2020-08-05T15:54:54Z lisbeths: I can understand that that would be useful, but I have never seen that possible in a programming language before. Can you give me an example of where that could be used
2020-08-05T15:55:22Z gwatt: lisbeths: have you seen mutually recursive functions before in any other programming language?
2020-08-05T15:55:51Z lisbeths: no I do not think that I have, though I have theorized it could exist
2020-08-05T15:55:55Z gwatt: It's the same idea, but hidden inside an expression.
2020-08-05T15:55:56Z lisbeths: I have mostly used c and javascript
2020-08-05T15:55:58Z lisbeths: and bash
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2020-08-05T15:56:42Z lisbeths: I realize that this _mentioning_ a thing before it is defined is sort of syntactic sugar
2020-08-05T15:57:34Z gwatt: lisbeths: https://dpaste.com/7YUVYGCTU
2020-08-05T15:58:21Z wasamasa: people kind of did it in JS with this and objects
2020-08-05T15:58:28Z wasamasa: it's super ugly, but possible
2020-08-05T15:59:06Z lisbeths: I just don't understnad how that even odd function can compute
2020-08-05T15:59:24Z lisbeths: I understand that there is infinite tail call recursion though I feel like it would never return
2020-08-05T15:59:30Z lisbeths: how does it return?
2020-08-05T15:59:37Z wasamasa: it's not infinite, at some point you hit the base case
2020-08-05T15:59:46Z lisbeths: OH
2020-08-05T15:59:53Z lisbeths: so it trickles down until it reaches zero or not zero ey
2020-08-05T16:00:06Z gwatt: we're pretending that non-integers don't exist.
2020-08-05T16:00:17Z lisbeths: it works like a recursive factorial is that correct?
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2020-08-05T16:02:21Z lisbeths: I get it now
2020-08-05T16:02:38Z lisbeths: Is there anything else within r5rs scheme that does mutual recursion, or is it just letrec that does this
2020-08-05T16:02:43Z lisbeths: is there a way to do it with normal lambdas
2020-08-05T16:02:51Z lisbeths: you dont have to show me if there is,I am just wondering if there is any other way to do it but this
2020-08-05T16:02:55Z wasamasa: the let/set! combination
2020-08-05T16:03:06Z wasamasa: or inner defines
2020-08-05T16:03:11Z wasamasa: they're all equivalent
2020-08-05T16:03:17Z lisbeths: set defines things yes?
2020-08-05T16:03:28Z wasamasa: or are they, hm
2020-08-05T16:03:36Z wasamasa: nah, inner define is a subset of letrec
2020-08-05T16:03:38Z Riastradh: wasamasa: letrec and internal definitions are equivalent (in R5RS)
2020-08-05T16:03:49Z lisbeths: Is there a way to do unnamed mutual recursion with lambdas?
2020-08-05T16:03:58Z lisbeths: again I dont need to see an example I am just wondering if it can be done
2020-08-05T16:03:58Z Riastradh: lisbeths: with the extended Y combinator
2020-08-05T16:04:02Z lisbeths: ok ty
2020-08-05T16:04:08Z lisbeths: now onto 4.3 of r5rs, macros
2020-08-05T16:05:25Z Riastradh: wasamasa: subset?
2020-08-05T16:05:47Z wasamasa: I thought of whether an inner define can refer to a later one
2020-08-05T16:05:52Z wasamasa: I never tried that out
2020-08-05T16:06:02Z Riastradh: wasamasa: yes it can
2020-08-05T16:06:11Z wasamasa: so they are equivalent
2020-08-05T16:06:16Z Riastradh: yes
2020-08-05T16:06:19Z gwatt: I think in r5rs inner defines have letrec semantics. in r6rs inner defines have letrec* semantics
2020-08-05T16:06:24Z Riastradh: right
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2020-08-05T16:07:11Z Riastradh: wasamasa: https://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html#%_toc_%_sec_5.2.2
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2020-08-05T16:07:14Z wasamasa: letrec vs letrec* is something I haven't looked into yet
2020-08-05T16:07:36Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (letrec* ((a 1) (b a)) b)
2020-08-05T16:07:37Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2020-08-05T16:07:37Z rudybot: gwatt: error: letrec*: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2020-08-05T16:07:44Z Riastradh: letrec binds all first, then evaluates all first, then initializes all first.
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2020-08-05T16:07:46Z gwatt: :-/
2020-08-05T16:07:54Z Riastradh: letrec* binds all first, then evaluates and initializes left-to-right.
2020-08-05T16:08:47Z wasamasa: seems like r7rs inherited it from r6rs
2020-08-05T16:09:10Z Riastradh: So (letrec* ((x E) (y F)) B) is (let ((x 0) (y 0)) (set! x E) (set! y F) B), whereas (letrec ((x E) (y F)) B) is (let ((x 0) (y 0)) (let ((t E) (u F)) (set! x t) (set! y u)) B).
2020-08-05T16:09:20Z Riastradh: (ignoring details of internal definitions inside the body)
2020-08-05T16:09:41Z Riastradh: Top-level definitions have always had letrec* semantics.
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2020-08-05T16:10:01Z Riastradh: It was a goofy quirk of earlier versions of Scheme that internal definitions wound up with letrec semantics, for no good reason.
2020-08-05T16:10:28Z lisbeths: so basically
2020-08-05T16:10:35Z wasamasa: do I understand r7rs-small correctly in that it's possible to implement letrec without set!
2020-08-05T16:10:41Z lisbeths: I would like to see an emplementation of r5rs inside of r5rs which is not "tricky"
2020-08-05T16:10:58Z lisbeths: meaning it is not very fancy code it just neds to very plainly explain what needs to be done to implement an r5rs interpreter
2020-08-05T16:11:06Z wasamasa: r5rs on its own is not powerful enough for that I'm afraid
2020-08-05T16:11:18Z wasamasa: grass is a thing
2020-08-05T16:11:23Z lisbeths: well I mean
2020-08-05T16:11:32Z lisbeths: to define an interpreter to its own internals through macros
2020-08-05T16:11:34Z wasamasa: it has a bunch of implementation-specific parts
2020-08-05T16:11:44Z wasamasa: for r7rs it's possible
2020-08-05T16:11:50Z wasamasa: see rapid scheme
2020-08-05T16:11:59Z lisbeths: see I knew I shoudl have learned r7
2020-08-05T16:12:26Z lisbeths: ok so this may sound dumb
2020-08-05T16:12:33Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Sure, you can implement letrec in terms of internal definitions...
2020-08-05T16:12:40Z lisbeths: but on this github project for rapid scheme I have trouble knowing which file to start with
2020-08-05T16:12:46Z Riastradh: (letrec ((x E) (y F)) B) = (let () (define x E) (define y F) B)
2020-08-05T16:12:49Z lisbeths: and what I imagine is I shoudl start by reading the makefile, is that true?
2020-08-05T16:12:51Z Riastradh: er
2020-08-05T16:12:52Z Riastradh: well
2020-08-05T16:13:01Z Riastradh: letrec*, perhaps
2020-08-05T16:13:26Z Riastradh: (let () (define-values (x y) (values E F)) B) or similar might work
2020-08-05T16:13:53Z wasamasa: hm, can't find the homepage for grass again, but I have a copy
2020-08-05T16:15:29Z lisbeths: listen
2020-08-05T16:15:32Z lisbeths: lambda can be a let right
2020-08-05T16:15:51Z lisbeths: (let foo x) => ((lamba (foo) x))
2020-08-05T16:16:02Z lisbeths: if I have two lambdas within each other I've got two names in my local scope
2020-08-05T16:16:10Z lisbeths: and then those two names need to be defined in terms of the y combinator
2020-08-05T16:16:13Z lisbeths: done and done
2020-08-05T16:16:14Z lisbeths: no more discussy
2020-08-05T16:16:16Z lisbeths: more helpy helpy
2020-08-05T16:16:18Z lisbeths: pls and thx
2020-08-05T16:17:58Z jcowan: The reasons for the introduction of letrec* were two: to explain internal defines, and because many Schemes had implemented letrec with letrec* semantics anyway.
2020-08-05T16:18:12Z jcowan: It's a subtle distinction.
2020-08-05T16:18:27Z wasamasa: there you go: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/files/grass.tar.gz
2020-08-05T16:19:16Z lisbeths: so uh
2020-08-05T16:19:28Z lisbeths: within define-syntax and syntax-rules I think it is not wise to get rid of how parentheses work
2020-08-05T16:19:37Z lisbeths: however a domain specific language can be called within two parens
2020-08-05T16:19:55Z lisbeths: like (my-dsl some-code *($*$(* fsbadfsofj {}.///$*$* )
2020-08-05T16:20:03Z lisbeths: only I couldn't have right paren in that lang obviously
2020-08-05T16:20:17Z wasamasa: it depends on how dumb the parser is
2020-08-05T16:20:38Z Riastradh: lisbeths: Macros work on the structure of the syntax already parsed into lists & symbols; they don't work on the characters in the text directly, and so have no power to change the interpretation of ( and ).
2020-08-05T16:20:42Z lisbeths: well I mean I would have a finite set of symbols in y dsl, and I would have a convention for defining new symbols from within the dsl that does not define them outside the dsl
2020-08-05T16:20:52Z lisbeths: but here is a good question
2020-08-05T16:21:13Z wasamasa: reader macros are poorly explored scheme territory
2020-08-05T16:21:16Z lisbeths: (my-dsl is-inbetween-two-parens ) how can I have a right paren as a symbol within my dsl but be a normal right paren outside of it
2020-08-05T16:21:24Z lisbeths: I think it can be done without reader macros
2020-08-05T16:21:28Z wasamasa: keep some context around
2020-08-05T16:21:32Z Riastradh: lisbeths: It cannot be done without reader macros.
2020-08-05T16:21:37Z lisbeths: we shall see :p
2020-08-05T16:21:50Z lisbeths: I am going to implement a haskell-ish scheme instead of wisp, or try to
2020-08-05T16:21:55Z wasamasa: same way you write code that detects balanced parentheses
2020-08-05T16:22:08Z lisbeths: right how is the code that detects balanced parentheses written if it ignores whitespace
2020-08-05T16:22:15Z Riastradh: If you really want to ignore advice and go on a wild goose chase, fine, but I assure you that ordinary macros in Scheme very much do not have the power to do what you're asking.
2020-08-05T16:22:17Z lisbeths: it is sort of a special symbol if it can ignore whitespace
2020-08-05T16:22:27Z wasamasa: the reader does that for you
2020-08-05T16:22:30Z Riastradh: They don't see the whitespace; they don't see the ( and ) tokens themselves.
2020-08-05T16:22:34Z lisbeths: you are telling me not to try to code a thing, which is noble if you are right but dastardly if you are wrong, Riastradh
2020-08-05T16:22:44Z lisbeths: you can not be sure, Riastradh that you are parsing correctly what I am trying to describe
2020-08-05T16:23:58Z jcowan: It's your nose, even though the wall really is made of brick.
2020-08-05T16:24:16Z lisbeths: what I am trying to describe I have not described well, let me put it that way
2020-08-05T16:24:21Z lisbeths: i am nearly 110% certain that it can work
2020-08-05T16:24:40Z lisbeths: ah I have fallen for the 110% meme
2020-08-05T16:24:46Z lisbeths: i told myself I would never use this in a programmmatic context
2020-08-05T16:24:51Z lisbeths: I am 80% sure
2020-08-05T16:25:09Z Riastradh: ...that's a lot of certainty for a language whose semantics you still have basic questions about.
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2020-08-05T16:25:41Z lisbeths: so if I have (syntax-rules () ((foo ...) ())) is .. a symbol which gives me the sort of '(symbol of what is typed into it)
2020-08-05T16:25:51Z lisbeths: I don't know what you call escaped code in lisp
2020-08-05T16:25:53Z Riastradh: (nothing wrong with having basic questions and learning, but you might want to heed jcowan's warning that ahead of you lies a brick wall)
2020-08-05T16:26:01Z lisbeths: will it give me a quoted block of code that I can parse?
2020-08-05T16:26:06Z lisbeths: like a tree of symbols
2020-08-05T16:26:22Z Riastradh: `...' is a repetition operator in a pattern and template language for macros.
2020-08-05T16:26:36Z lisbeths: welL I guess I can test it muhself I dunno
2020-08-05T16:26:44Z Riastradh: In a pattern, `foo ...' matches zero or more instances of the pattern foo.
2020-08-05T16:26:44Z wasamasa: it's like the regex star syntax
2020-08-05T16:27:01Z Riastradh: For example, (42 ...) matches (), (42), (42 42), (42 42 42), &c.
2020-08-05T16:27:50Z Riastradh: The pattern ((x 123) ...) matches (), ((foobar 123)), ((foobar 123) (bazquux 123)), &c.  (The pattern `x', being a symbol, serves as a wildcard; the pattern `123', being an integer, serves as a literal.)
2020-08-05T16:29:02Z lisbeths: so the first thing I wanna do is just see what is inside the symbol or macro ...
2020-08-05T16:29:03Z lisbeths: https://pastebin.com/8UPEER8t
2020-08-05T16:29:08Z lisbeths: or sorry thats got javascript in it
2020-08-05T16:29:22Z lisbeths: https://pastebin.com/raw/8UPEER8t <- raw text file
2020-08-05T16:29:36Z wasamasa: that doesn't look correct
2020-08-05T16:29:52Z lisbeths: is there a way to print the tree of symbols that are in the body?
2020-08-05T16:29:53Z wasamasa: whenever you match a ... pattern, you must use the same pattern in the expansion
2020-08-05T16:30:07Z Riastradh: You seem to be under the misapprehension that `...' itself is a kind of wildcard element in a pattern.
2020-08-05T16:30:12Z lisbeths: yes
2020-08-05T16:30:24Z lisbeths: it is syntactic sugar, I believe you call it
2020-08-05T16:30:28Z Riastradh: `...' only makes sense when it _follows_ another pattern.
2020-08-05T16:30:36Z Riastradh: As in `(x 123) ...', for example.
2020-08-05T16:30:45Z lisbeths: I owuld rather learn to remove as much of the syntactic sugar from macro creation as is possible
2020-08-05T16:30:49Z Riastradh: The syntax of let might be described by the pattern:  (let ((x E) ...) b0 b1+ ...)
2020-08-05T16:30:53Z lisbeths: for example I often prever to use list over '(someting)
2020-08-05T16:31:06Z lisbeths: or I prefer to use quote over '(quoted thing)
2020-08-05T16:31:26Z wasamasa: you can use syntax-rules to implement other special forms, sure
2020-08-05T16:31:35Z wasamasa: like and/or/cond/...
2020-08-05T16:31:42Z lisbeths: well what I want
2020-08-05T16:31:46Z Riastradh: Why don't you start by doing:  (define-syntax curry (syntax-rules () ((curry x ...) '(curry x ...))))
2020-08-05T16:31:49Z lisbeths: is a macro that takes the whole body after foo
2020-08-05T16:31:52Z lisbeths: or cury I suppose
2020-08-05T16:31:56Z lisbeths: and just gives me that tree
2020-08-05T16:32:00Z lisbeths: so I can just manipulate it how I want
2020-08-05T16:32:00Z Riastradh: Then see what happens when you pass in different things.
2020-08-05T16:32:03Z Riastradh: Next, try something like
2020-08-05T16:32:14Z Riastradh: (define-syntax curry (syntax-rules () ((curry (x E) ...) '(x ...))))
2020-08-05T16:32:22Z Riastradh: and see what you get out when you do (curry (x 0) (y 1) (z 3)).
2020-08-05T16:32:22Z lisbeths: i wanna type (curry &rest) so to speak, and &rest is a tree of symbols
2020-08-05T16:32:46Z lisbeths: I think of ... as &rest in emacs which I can see that it isn't
2020-08-05T16:32:58Z lisbeths: I want something kind of like &rest not like ...
2020-08-05T16:33:09Z lisbeths: so I can just get the entire body in a tree of symbols and parse it
2020-08-05T16:33:11Z wasamasa: for that you use one symbol followed by ...
2020-08-05T16:33:19Z lisbeths: ah thank you
2020-08-05T16:33:21Z wasamasa: and pass that to a procedure doing the parsing
2020-08-05T16:33:26Z lisbeths: and then whe nI refer to it
2020-08-05T16:33:40Z lisbeths: do I use the symbol or do I use ..., or do I refer to the symbol as the head and ... as the tail?
2020-08-05T16:34:00Z Riastradh: lisbeths: Try the exercises I just gave you.
2020-08-05T16:34:03Z wasamasa: neither
2020-08-05T16:34:10Z wasamasa: all you get is the kleene star
2020-08-05T16:34:16Z Riastradh: wasamasa: gesundheit
2020-08-05T16:34:30Z wasamasa: you can use it to force the captured body to have zero, one or more elements
2020-08-05T16:35:03Z wasamasa: what you cannot really do is procedural transformation of the body
2020-08-05T16:35:48Z wasamasa: only clever sets of rewriting rules to approach something like cond's syntax
2020-08-05T16:38:17Z wasamasa: you can't conjure new identifiers either, that is, identifiers you didn't pass to the macro :D
2020-08-05T16:40:40Z wasamasa: syntax-rules gives you the ability to say "If my macro call looks like this, rewrite it into this form"
2020-08-05T16:41:23Z lisbeths: ah
2020-08-05T16:41:36Z lisbeths: I had not known that procedural transoformation of the body at compile time was not possible
2020-08-05T16:41:56Z lisbeths: isn't it possible though to create a body like (quote (lambda my body terms blah blah))
2020-08-05T16:42:02Z Riastradh: Sure it is, just in a really weird term rewriting language called syntax-rules...
2020-08-05T16:42:04Z lisbeths: and then that will have compile speeds at compile time when i apply it?
2020-08-05T16:42:27Z lisbeths: this is what I've got so far
2020-08-05T16:42:29Z lisbeths: https://pastebin.com/raw/EAbq1yEj
2020-08-05T16:42:51Z lisbeths: so if you can see what I was trying to do, doing (foo (bar baz)) would be the same thing as doing '(bar baz)
2020-08-05T16:42:56Z wasamasa: you must use head ... in the expansion
2020-08-05T16:43:16Z Riastradh: lisbeths: Did you try the exercises I just gave you?
2020-08-05T16:43:20Z lisbeths: hold on
2020-08-05T16:43:31Z lisbeths: I was having emacs issues i will go back and do those
2020-08-05T16:43:48Z lisbeths: could you give me a timestamp, Riastradh
2020-08-05T16:43:53Z lisbeths: to which specific thing you are referring to
2020-08-05T16:43:56Z wasamasa: because you're telling syntax-rules that it should rewrite this macro call to place the sequence denoted by head ... into a different place where head ... is now
2020-08-05T16:44:16Z wasamasa: if you can show what that is supposed to expand to, that would help
2020-08-05T16:45:33Z Riastradh: lisbeths: Start by doing (define-syntax curry (syntax-rules () ((curry x ...) '(x ...)))) and see what (curry (x 0) (y 1) (z 2)) gives you.  Then try (define-syntax curry (syntax-rules () ((curry (x E) ...) '(x ...)))) and see what (curry (x 0) (y 1) (z 2)) gives you.
2020-08-05T16:46:07Z Riastradh: Then maybe try (define-syntax curry (syntax-rules () ((curry (x E) ...) '(E ...)))).
2020-08-05T16:46:22Z lisbeths: that gives me an error during expansion
2020-08-05T16:46:30Z lisbeths: the define-syntax curry you defined
2020-08-05T16:47:17Z Riastradh: Which one?
2020-08-05T16:47:41Z lisbeths: (define-syntax curry (syntax-rules () ((curry x ...) '(x ...))))
2020-08-05T16:48:06Z Riastradh: Can you please copy & paste the exact transcript of your interaction?
2020-08-05T16:48:59Z lisbeths: https://pastebin.com/raw/5SGGXEqw
2020-08-05T16:49:07Z lisbeths: this is csi in chicken
2020-08-05T16:49:13Z wasamasa: but that's not the one Riastradh told you to use, lol
2020-08-05T16:49:25Z lisbeths: sorry I am having to parse alot of text
2020-08-05T16:49:34Z lisbeths: second one ok
2020-08-05T16:51:17Z lisbeths: https://pastebin.com/raw/ChFHfRT9
2020-08-05T16:51:26Z lisbeths: should return '( hello goodbye)
2020-08-05T16:51:31Z lisbeths: or in unquoted form (hello goodbye)
2020-08-05T16:51:43Z lisbeths: let me try the third one
2020-08-05T16:52:00Z gwatt: lisbeths: try the one you pasted into this chat at 12:47:41
2020-08-05T16:52:03Z wasamasa: that still breaks the elementary rule
2020-08-05T16:52:11Z gwatt: (adjust the hour for your locale, i guess)
2020-08-05T16:52:19Z wasamasa: if you match a ... pattern, you must use exactly that pattern in the replacement
2020-08-05T16:52:28Z Riastradh: lisbeths: `hello' is not of the form (x E) for any x and any E.
2020-08-05T16:52:30Z wasamasa: you can't just use a different one and expect that to work
2020-08-05T16:52:47Z Riastradh: lisbeths: So the pattern doesn't match the input you provided.
2020-08-05T16:52:57Z Riastradh: But try (curry (x 0) (y 1) (z 2)).
2020-08-05T16:53:10Z Riastradh: or (curry (a 0) (b 1) (b 2)).
2020-08-05T16:53:45Z lisbeths: sure tha tworks as expected
2020-08-05T16:53:57Z lisbeths: is there no way of having an arbitrary number of symbols which I can just have directly in a tree?
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2020-08-05T16:55:00Z Riastradh: Go back and do all three exercises again.
2020-08-05T16:55:06Z lisbeths: no lol
2020-08-05T16:55:09Z wasamasa: do it
2020-08-05T16:55:12Z Riastradh: The answer is already in them.
2020-08-05T16:55:14Z lisbeths: if the thing I want to do is impossible tell me it is impossible
2020-08-05T16:55:20Z lisbeths: do not show me an example of why it is impossible just tell me
2020-08-05T16:55:28Z lisbeths: if it is *not* impossible then I will do the exambles
2020-08-05T16:55:29Z wasamasa: nobody is telling you it's impossible
2020-08-05T16:55:34Z lisbeths: okay then I shall do them
2020-08-05T16:55:57Z Riastradh: Why are you so resistant to taking advice?
2020-08-05T16:56:19Z wasamasa: bitten by advice dog
2020-08-05T16:56:39Z lisbeths: to be clear are these theree exercises what you are trying to get me to do? or is there more: https://pastebin.com/raw/zWyGSg6U
2020-08-05T16:57:08Z Riastradh: lisbeths: Yes.  And try feeding different inputs into the three different definitions of curry and study what the outputs look like.
2020-08-05T16:58:13Z wasamasa: now I wonder what the curry macro is actually supposed to do
2020-08-05T16:58:28Z lisbeths: its supposed to do this: (define-syntax curry (syntax-rules () ((curry x ...) '(x ...))))
2020-08-05T16:58:36Z lisbeths: i must have copy pasted the first on incorrectly last time
2020-08-05T16:58:44Z wasamasa: that's not currying, is it
2020-08-05T16:58:45Z lisbeths: like I said I am only intermediate level at emacs it can still easily throw me for a loop
2020-08-05T16:58:51Z Riastradh: wasamasa: I took the name from lisbeths's original macro and didn't change it.
2020-08-05T16:58:53Z lisbeths: its not currying becuase I havent parsed it yet
2020-08-05T16:59:00Z lisbeths: the currying happens after the parsing
2020-08-05T16:59:17Z wasamasa: if you can answer how the expansion looks like (no parsing), then you're close to writing that macro definition
2020-08-05T16:59:46Z wasamasa: that's the beauty of this system
2020-08-05T17:00:22Z lisbeths: I just needed to 'see' an example of exactly how it was written
2020-08-05T17:00:33Z lisbeths: i ahve to learn by seeing examples not by explanation, its one of my weaknesses
2020-08-05T17:00:46Z wasamasa: did you know the predecessor to this thing is called macros by example
2020-08-05T17:01:24Z wasamasa: if you can come up with a proper example, the macro is as good as done
2020-08-05T17:02:24Z wasamasa: that aside, you might like The Little Schemer
2020-08-05T17:03:19Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2tk9
2020-08-05T17:03:24Z wasamasa: here's another non-currying macro
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2020-08-05T17:19:08Z lisbeths: https://pastebin.com/raw/1EN1Dj6U
2020-08-05T17:19:13Z lisbeths: take a look at this bad boy he he he
2020-08-05T17:19:19Z lisbeths: time to work out do yard work and make breakfast
2020-08-05T17:20:02Z Riastradh: FYI, the quotation in the macros I suggested as exercises is a debugging trick to show you what a macro expanded to.
2020-08-05T17:20:30Z Riastradh: Generally if you are tempted to use ` and , to construct the code in the output of syntax-rules, you're doing something wrong.
2020-08-05T17:21:04Z wasamasa: yeah, it's not procedural
2020-08-05T17:21:26Z wasamasa: you can do neat stuff with these, but different from what you'd expect :D
2020-08-05T17:21:29Z lisbeths: is that not compile-time friendly
2020-08-05T17:21:43Z Riastradh: It's not merely `not compile-time friendly'; it simply doesn't make sense or work.
2020-08-05T17:22:05Z wasamasa: you don't need to use list-ref or so to destructure the macro arguments
2020-08-05T17:22:11Z wasamasa: you can just use pattern matching to access them
2020-08-05T17:22:35Z lisbeths: these are what you would call reader macros correct?
2020-08-05T17:22:39Z wasamasa: ...
2020-08-05T17:22:45Z Riastradh: That said: I would strongly recommend that you start by getting facility with simple macros first, and then much later worry about macros that expand to definitions of other macros.
2020-08-05T17:22:52Z Riastradh: lisbeths: `these' being what?
2020-08-05T17:22:54Z lisbeths: lol I jus tlearned macros in 2 days
2020-08-05T17:23:00Z lisbeths: these as in the definition of syn
2020-08-05T17:23:03Z lisbeths: and the definition of curry
2020-08-05T17:23:04Z Riastradh: no
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2020-08-05T17:23:21Z lisbeths: I am not so interested in it being hygenic
2020-08-05T17:23:32Z wasamasa: syntax-rules *is* hygienic, like it or not
2020-08-05T17:23:38Z lisbeths: but I am intersted in that if I typed syn and curry into a scheme JIT that I would get compiled speeds when using curry
2020-08-05T17:23:50Z Riastradh: Worry about `compiled speeds' once you have the semantics figured out.
2020-08-05T17:23:53Z lisbeths: or rather
2020-08-05T17:23:58Z lisbeths: to pass the results of curry into define
2020-08-05T17:24:08Z lisbeths: so the output of curry should always produce somethign which is hygenic when i am finished with it
2020-08-05T17:24:15Z wasamasa: I've yet to see what curry is supposed to expand to
2020-08-05T17:24:17Z Riastradh: what you're doing right now is barking up about eight different lampposts and calling them trees
2020-08-05T17:24:25Z lisbeths: it wil expand to rsr5 compliant hygenic scheme
2020-08-05T17:24:31Z lisbeths: but right now it just expands to &rest
2020-08-05T17:24:37Z lisbeths: and I will pass that expansion into define
2020-08-05T17:24:48Z lisbeths: essentially it will expand to a lambda expression
2020-08-05T17:25:14Z lisbeths: so `(define foo ,(curry some-code-in-my-dsl))
2020-08-05T17:25:16Z wasamasa: sure, all I'm asking for is an example of the macro call and an example of the resulting expression
2020-08-05T17:25:21Z Riastradh: `Reader macros' are a different thing entirely that has to do with the interpretation of the characters in the text long before it gets to macros.
2020-08-05T17:25:33Z lisbeths: sure but you wont get the macro for like 7 days
2020-08-05T17:25:39Z Riastradh: Forget about them; most Schemes don't even have anything like them.
2020-08-05T17:25:44Z lisbeths: just understand that curry is a domain specific language that ouputs proper scheme
2020-08-05T17:26:01Z lisbeths: but from what I gather
2020-08-05T17:26:04Z wasamasa: if you can nail that DSL down in easy rewrites, you can make a macro of it
2020-08-05T17:26:20Z lisbeths: well I mean while it is parsing it into scheme I am not worried about the speed
2020-08-05T17:26:28Z lisbeths: I am only worried about after it is parsed into scheme and passed into define
2020-08-05T17:26:31Z wasamasa: something like (curry x y z) ;-> (lambda _ x y z)
2020-08-05T17:26:46Z lisbeths: the thing is to "compile" a line of scheme code is faster than it normally takes a user to type the code
2020-08-05T17:27:10Z lisbeths: so ideally in a JIT if things are done correctly the parsing time and compile time should be neglegible because the user who is using the REPl or SHELL cant keep up with the compiler
2020-08-05T17:27:23Z wasamasa: worry about efficiency another day
2020-08-05T17:27:27Z lisbeths: lel no
2020-08-05T17:27:30Z lisbeths: I need compiled speeds
2020-08-05T17:27:35Z wasamasa: this is not CL where you can nail down the exact guarantees
2020-08-05T17:27:45Z lisbeths: wanting compiled speeds =/= optimizing early
2020-08-05T17:27:49Z Riastradh: lisbeths: you're tripping over your own shoelaces here
2020-08-05T17:27:51Z lisbeths: ok
2020-08-05T17:27:59Z lisbeths: got to make breakfast I will show you when its done and you can decide
2020-08-05T17:28:06Z wasamasa: worry about the meaning of what you write because currently, it's a whole bunch of nonsense you're raving about
2020-08-05T17:28:08Z lisbeths: for now I think I have officially learned macros and ahve learned r5rs
2020-08-05T17:28:09Z Riastradh: lisbeths: Until you have an idea of what you are trying to do, I recommend you stop worrying about how fast you do it.
2020-08-05T17:28:09Z lisbeths: with my thanks
2020-08-05T17:28:27Z wasamasa: make it work, make it work right, make it work right and fast
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2020-08-05T17:31:46Z zig: +1
2020-08-05T17:35:50Z wasamasa: I'm still hopeful to get a simple explanation what the heck curry is about
2020-08-05T17:36:07Z bitmapper: oh
2020-08-05T17:36:10Z bitmapper: the function?
2020-08-05T17:36:12Z bitmapper: or the concept
2020-08-05T17:36:16Z wasamasa: the concept
2020-08-05T17:36:25Z Riastradh: bitmapper: lisbeths's macro
2020-08-05T17:36:26Z wasamasa: I've hit a wall learning SML and its relatives
2020-08-05T17:36:31Z Riastradh: or wait
2020-08-05T17:36:33Z bitmapper: nice, sml
2020-08-05T17:36:38Z Riastradh: wasamasa: You mean currying in general, not just lisbeths's macro?
2020-08-05T17:36:41Z wasamasa: yes
2020-08-05T17:36:50Z wasamasa: that would probably help figuring out what lisbeths goal is
2020-08-05T17:36:51Z Riastradh: ((f x) y) instead of (f x y)
2020-08-05T17:36:56Z Riastradh: that's all
2020-08-05T17:37:01Z bitmapper: wasamasa: in standard ml functions can only take one argument
2020-08-05T17:37:13Z wasamasa: but that's not entirely true, is it
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2020-08-05T17:37:18Z bitmapper: it is, actually
2020-08-05T17:37:21Z Riastradh: wasamasa: What is not entirely true?
2020-08-05T17:37:26Z wasamasa: you write function definitions taking a fixed set of arguments just fine there
2020-08-05T17:37:30Z bitmapper: yep
2020-08-05T17:37:35Z wasamasa: but at other times you don't do that and have to be aware of currying
2020-08-05T17:37:41Z bitmapper: wdym
2020-08-05T17:37:44Z wasamasa: and I can't figure out proper style to write elegant and nicely flowing code
2020-08-05T17:37:45Z Riastradh: It is entirely true that currying means using ((f x) y) to pass multiple arguments, and that SML functions only take one argument so that's the standard mechanism to pass multiple arguments.
2020-08-05T17:37:54Z Riastradh: (another mechanism is to pass one argument that is a tuple)
2020-08-05T17:37:59Z bitmapper: fun testFun a b c = a + b + c
2020-08-05T17:38:05Z bitmapper: is the same thing as
2020-08-05T17:38:07Z wasamasa: ah, right, it's the tuple vs currying thing
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2020-08-05T17:38:22Z bitmapper: val testFun = fun a => fun b => fun c => a + b + c
2020-08-05T17:38:25Z wasamasa: I've mostly defined my own functions to accept tuples, but then there's the standard library using currying
2020-08-05T17:38:33Z wasamasa: this doesn't mix well
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2020-08-05T17:38:44Z bitmapper: haha i always found the standard library used tuples too much
2020-08-05T17:38:45Z Riastradh: In Haskell currying is more conventional.
2020-08-05T17:38:52Z Riastradh: In OCaml I think currying is also more conventional.
2020-08-05T17:39:00Z Riastradh: I seem to recall SML does a lot more tuples but it's been a while.
2020-08-05T17:39:06Z bitmapper: it does indeed
2020-08-05T17:39:14Z Riastradh: Unless you're doing partial application a lot it doesn't really matter much.
2020-08-05T17:39:37Z wasamasa: it appears to me that being aware of the benefits of each helps writing tighter code
2020-08-05T17:39:46Z Riastradh: (Parts of the Haskell world are really into what some like to call `point-less style' which has lots of function composition with `.' and fewer named arguments flying around.)
2020-08-05T17:39:52Z wasamasa: with less parentheses and syntax
2020-08-05T17:40:43Z bitmapper: one large benefit is you can compose functions more easily
2020-08-05T17:40:48Z wasamasa: yes
2020-08-05T17:41:10Z wasamasa: like turning a function into something map accepts
2020-08-05T17:43:44Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2tkr
2020-08-05T17:43:52Z wasamasa: is that the idea or have I implemented apply-partially
2020-08-05T17:44:01Z wasamasa: or cut :D
2020-08-05T17:44:35Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Argument order is reversed from convention but sure.
2020-08-05T17:44:45Z wasamasa: huh, ok
2020-08-05T17:44:52Z wasamasa: clojure would call it partial
2020-08-05T17:44:53Z Riastradh: One might reasonably define it so that (((curry f) x) y) = (f x y).
2020-08-05T17:45:03Z Riastradh: sure
2020-08-05T17:45:48Z wasamasa: their equivalent: (print (map (partial + 1) (take 3 (range))))
2020-08-05T17:46:53Z wasamasa: do you mean expanding to (proc args ... x)?
2020-08-05T17:47:08Z Riastradh: yes
2020-08-05T17:47:14Z Riastradh: ((curry f) x) = (lambda (y) (f x y))
2020-08-05T17:47:20Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2tks
2020-08-05T17:47:38Z wasamasa: I'm sure lisbeths is overjoyed we just solved the problem without him doing any actual work
2020-08-05T17:47:52Z Riastradh: (I remain unclear on what lisbeths was trying to achieve.)
2020-08-05T17:48:31Z wasamasa: anyway, srfi-26 makes this unnecessary
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2020-08-05T17:57:32Z gwatt: Maybe I need to see cut in action, but the srfi examples don't look super compelling.
2020-08-05T17:58:24Z wasamasa: my above example would be (display (map (cut + 1 <>) (iota 3)))
2020-08-05T17:58:44Z wasamasa: it's basically shorter syntax for writing out that lambda
2020-08-05T17:59:25Z zig: I am seeking advice from wise persons, I am strugglign at work with an giant upgrade, there is around 13k sloc, I would like to rewrite the thing, what do you suggest?
2020-08-05T18:00:05Z gwatt: wasamasa: I can see that, but ... I guess I don't see it as better enough. I can alias lambda to fn and it saves a similar number of characters.
2020-08-05T18:00:28Z zig: +1 gwatt
2020-08-05T18:00:42Z wasamasa: IIRC that's something addressed there, too
2020-08-05T18:01:21Z gwatt: zig: as a non-wise person, that sounds risky. Full re-writes take a while, which means you're not implementing stuff your work wants.
2020-08-05T18:01:22Z wasamasa: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-26/mail-archive/msg00040.html
2020-08-05T18:01:45Z wasamasa: the PS is hilarious :D
2020-08-05T18:02:16Z zig: gwatt: yeah but what they want is not possible
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2020-08-05T18:03:59Z gwatt: That sounds like a different conversation
2020-08-05T18:04:28Z zaifir: "l, the ultimate curry that is not curry"
2020-08-05T18:04:31Z zig: well the way they think is easier is not actually easier, I would spend the same amount of time to do something better
2020-08-05T18:05:13Z zig: the problem they do not know how to do it either, so they ask me to do what they can not do, I ask to rewrite they say no.
2020-08-05T18:06:31Z zig: I say being against rewrites is cargo-cult.
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2020-08-05T18:11:34Z gwatt: My current work actually did a rewrite, from C#/MSSQL to Scala/Mariadb. We started this process over 5 years ago, and we decided that some parts of the old system were too difficult to migrate.
2020-08-05T18:13:26Z Riastradh: zig: second-system effect
2020-08-05T18:13:37Z zaifir: zig: "It is easier to write an incorrect program than to understand a correct program."
2020-08-05T18:13:52Z gwatt: Riastradh: or NIH
2020-08-05T18:13:58Z gwatt: depends if zig wrote it initially
2020-08-05T18:14:12Z zig: I did not write it
2020-08-05T18:14:41Z zaifir: zig: Not that most rewrites are incorrect--it's just that "rewrite everything" is a common suggestion from people who may underestimate the problems that the existing program has to solve.
2020-08-05T18:14:47Z Riastradh: Sometimes rewriting components is a great way to understand why they're implemented the way they are -- and most of the time you throw away your rewrite once you realize the non-obvious difficulties that led to the way the existing implementation is.
2020-08-05T18:14:57Z zaifir: Exactly.
2020-08-05T18:15:31Z zig: zaifir: yeah I know, but 13k sloc...
2020-08-05T18:15:41Z zig: zaifir: it is CMS.
2020-08-05T18:15:54Z lisbeths: please give me a list of the critera that are necessary for "good" scheme macros including being "hygenic" and "compile-time-friendly"
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2020-08-05T18:16:40Z zaifir: zig: ... which makes your poor stomach all squeamious!
2020-08-05T18:19:06Z zaifir: zig: I think I'd be very skeptical of a 13K line change, as well.
2020-08-05T18:20:19Z zaifir: That's what, at least two compilers-worth...
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2020-08-05T18:25:57Z lisbeths: I need a list of criteria I can test against to see if my macros are good or bad.
2020-08-05T18:26:12Z lisbeths: thus I can learn to tell on my own if my macros are proper without needing help
2020-08-05T18:29:35Z zig: lisbeths: search for papers about macros
2020-08-05T18:30:12Z zig: lisbeths: syntax-rules, syntax-case.. and prolly others.
2020-08-05T18:30:25Z zig: lisbeths: read alexpander code
2020-08-05T18:31:58Z zig: google scholar might help
2020-08-05T18:37:40Z jcowan: The only reason currying is awkward in Scheme is that existing higher-order functions don't expect curried functions or tuple-accepting functions, they expect genuine multi-argument functions.
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2020-08-05T18:38:23Z lisbeths: so theres a sort of trick which is hard to explain
2020-08-05T18:38:52Z lisbeths: if you are compiling a file into a binary, then everything is done at compile time if done properly
2020-08-05T18:39:10Z lisbeths: however: if you have a JIT, then the compiling of "one line of code" can be consider O of 2 in o notation
2020-08-05T18:39:27Z gwatt: eh?
2020-08-05T18:39:33Z lisbeths: the reason it is considered to be o of 2 is because the computer can compile 1 line of code faster than the user can type it into the JIT
2020-08-05T18:39:42Z lisbeths: in other words whatever o notation it is, it is multiplied by 2
2020-08-05T18:39:58Z lisbeths: o notations actually exist in "ranges" for example a resizable array/vector has a ranged o notation
2020-08-05T18:40:02Z lisbeths: it has a bset case and worst case scenario
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2020-08-05T18:40:25Z lisbeths: when looking at a JIT, the time it takes for a compiler to run a line of code which the user has typed is the (the best or worst case scenario) times two
2020-08-05T18:40:28Z jcowan: The advantage of a JIT is that the compiler knows a lot more about the program than an ahead-of-time compiler ever will.
2020-08-05T18:40:45Z lisbeths: in addition to that a JIT has an advantage over an interpreter
2020-08-05T18:40:54Z LeoNerd: And it can just outright presume facts that turn out later not to be true, and back out of them
2020-08-05T18:41:01Z jcowan: The disadvantage is that it can't be too optimizing or it will slow the program too much.  Indeed, some systems have two JITs for that reason: fast/dumb and slow/efficient
2020-08-05T18:41:03Z lisbeths: but either way, because it is so slow for a human to type a line of code into a repl, we do not worry about the speed of a JIT as a shell
2020-08-05T18:41:07Z LeoNerd: (e.g. the ones that do speculative "well maybe that param is of this type/value/...")
2020-08-05T18:41:11Z lisbeths: we cn assume that a JIT as a shell will normally be at compiled speeds
2020-08-05T18:41:33Z lisbeths: or relatively speaking it will
2020-08-05T18:41:44Z lisbeths: and so my curried language is intended to produce hygenic scheme to pas into define
2020-08-05T18:41:55Z lisbeths: and thus once it is defined it *should* be at compiled speeds if I am using a scheme JIT
2020-08-05T18:42:53Z lisbeths: `(define ,(my-dsl some-code-in-my-dsl-that-produces-hygenic-scheme-as-output))
2020-08-05T19:03:50Z lisbeths: It is possible to view the structure of schemes abstract syntax tree correct?
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2020-08-05T19:25:53Z gwatt: The source code you write is the abstract syntax tree.
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2020-08-05T19:41:17Z lisbeths: well I guess my actual question is that I want to take an object which I know to be a function and to see how many arguments it takes
2020-08-05T19:41:30Z lisbeths: if that is possible at least
2020-08-05T19:42:45Z Riastradh: No standard way to do that.
2020-08-05T19:43:09Z lisbeths: I see thank you
2020-08-05T19:43:34Z Riastradh: Some Schemes provide a certain level of introspection, e.g. in MIT Scheme you can ask (procedure-arity cons) and get back (2 . 2), which provides the minimum and maximum number of arguments that the procedure might accept.
2020-08-05T19:44:49Z Riastradh: Or, for example,
2020-08-05T19:44:49Z Riastradh: (procedure-arity make-vector)
2020-08-05T19:44:49Z Riastradh: ;Value: (1 . 2)
2020-08-05T19:45:32Z Riastradh: What this tells you is that it definitely refuses zero arguments, and it definitely refuses three or more arguments.
2020-08-05T19:45:58Z Riastradh: Of course, for (lambda x (assert (prime? (length x))) ...) it won't tell you much about the numbers of arguments that the procedure will really accept.
2020-08-05T19:46:23Z Riastradh: (It is used mostly for automatically formatting wrong-number-of-arguments errors.)
2020-08-05T19:48:51Z Riastradh: (make-vector 1 2 3)
2020-08-05T19:48:51Z Riastradh: ;The procedure #[compiled-procedure 13 ("vector" #xd) #x1a #x1279952] has been called with 3 arguments; it requires between 1 and 2 arguments.
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2020-08-06T01:24:21Z edgar-rft: are #t and #f freenode channels?
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2020-08-06T01:36:16Z aeth: if they are and #true doesn't redirect to #t and #false doesn't redirect to #f then I demand r7rs-small-revised
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2020-08-06T01:40:40Z jcowan: Every valid name "is" a channel; the only question is whether there is anyone in it or not.
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2020-08-06T01:43:28Z lisbeths: so uh how does scheme achieve tail call recursion
2020-08-06T01:43:43Z lisbeths: explain it to me as if the only control structure that I knew was goto
2020-08-06T01:43:58Z Riastradh: goto which can pass arguments
2020-08-06T01:44:30Z aeth: goto is one way, the other way is a trampoline: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_(computing)#High-level_programming
2020-08-06T01:45:00Z aeth: possibly better description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_call#Through_trampolining
2020-08-06T01:45:11Z aeth: (and the other way is just above that)
2020-08-06T01:46:08Z aeth: I'm guessing that the goto way probably makes mutual tail recursion harder, like when foo tail calls bar tail calls foo tail calls bar...
2020-08-06T01:53:02Z jcowan: How so?
2020-08-06T01:53:34Z jcowan: that is probably the most efficient way, after you have done CPS conversion.
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2020-08-06T01:57:34Z jcowan: The other ways exist when you are compiling to C or some other language that doesn't allow goto from one procedure to another.
2020-08-06T02:17:08Z aeth: nevermind, I must've read it wrong
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2020-08-06T05:56:18Z mdhughes: "l, the ultimate curry that is not curry" is what I do, but with λ (and my editors have cmd-Y mapped to λ). It's massively more convenient than writing "lambda" 1000x a day.
2020-08-06T05:59:49Z erkin: I like λ purely because it's aesthetically pleasing.
2020-08-06T06:00:07Z erkin: I have it assigned to AltGr-l
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2020-08-06T07:00:53Z zig: o/
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2020-08-06T15:12:33Z siraben: erkin:  I use macOS's text replacement to turn \lambda to λ
2020-08-06T15:12:53Z siraben: Among many other LaTeX things snippets, I lost the original plist where I got it, though.
2020-08-06T15:13:42Z siraben: Quick web search found it again: https://github.com/tslmy/latex-input-iOS-macOS/blob/master/LaTeX.plist
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2020-08-06T15:41:47Z erkin: Does macOS support the compose key?
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2020-08-06T15:46:52Z mdhughes: It's not on a standard Mac keyboard.
2020-08-06T15:48:39Z mdhughes: Sadly, text replacement doesn't work everywhere, or really anywhere except system text boxes. Any JS-based editor will ignore it.
2020-08-06T15:49:09Z mdhughes: There is TextExpander, and a few other macro systems (there's one in QuickSilver, and I think Alfred)
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2020-08-06T16:18:30Z siraben: erkin:  No compose key per say, but something analogous. alt-u o gives ö, for instance.
2020-08-06T16:18:46Z siraben: Also \"o → ö
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2020-08-06T16:43:55Z erkin: Sounds like the dead key equivalent of AltGr.
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2020-08-06T16:54:34Z arew: what is a dead key ?
2020-08-06T16:56:22Z fizzie: A key that, when pressed, does not immediately produce output, but instead modifies what the next keypress does.
2020-08-06T16:57:55Z arew: tx
2020-08-06T16:57:59Z fizzie: (Some keyboard layouts have dead-key diacritics by default, which is annoying when you want ^ more often than û, because then ^ needs an extra space.)
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2020-08-06T17:05:54Z mdhughes: No, opt is a modifier saved in the keyboard handler until combined with the next key, behaved like that since 1984 Macintosh.
2020-08-06T17:06:07Z mdhughes: s/opt/opt-diacritic/
2020-08-06T17:07:11Z mdhughes: But like opt-u is combined ümlaut, sh-opt-u is ¨ by itself.
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2020-08-06T19:07:36Z erkin: rm test.scm
2020-08-06T19:07:42Z erkin: oops disregard that
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2020-08-06T19:31:46Z aeth: no, I'm going to remove test.scm now if I want to
2020-08-06T19:46:08Z arew: lulz
2020-08-06T19:46:19Z arew: I made some markov chains... check this https://gist.github.com/amirouche/e79be4a894f90b13235073e0751aaa1e
2020-08-06T19:46:34Z wasamasa: I made some code for that, too
2020-08-06T19:46:58Z arew: it is based on the IRC logs from scheme-2020-04.txt
2020-08-06T19:47:07Z arew: scheme is mayonnaise x)
2020-08-06T19:47:29Z wasamasa: the ngrams code is good
2020-08-06T19:47:33Z arew: mdhughes: you are featured on this ;)
2020-08-06T19:48:31Z wasamasa: I wrote some named let mess instead
2020-08-06T19:48:35Z arew: wasamasa: but this markov chain thing seems very deep, but that particular program is... silly.
2020-08-06T19:49:17Z wasamasa: what size are the ngrams though?
2020-08-06T19:49:25Z arew: 5 to 1
2020-08-06T19:49:37Z arew: there is not stats actually.
2020-08-06T19:49:42Z wasamasa: hm, perhaps you'd get better results with a constant size
2020-08-06T19:49:45Z wasamasa: like 3
2020-08-06T19:50:01Z arew: yeah, but what happens if there is not continuation with a window of 3?
2020-08-06T19:50:11Z wasamasa: then you stop
2020-08-06T19:50:19Z arew: I mean, I try to complete based on the last 5 words, then 4, then 3, etc..
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2020-08-06T19:50:22Z wasamasa: and consider starting a new chain
2020-08-06T19:50:26Z arew: hmm
2020-08-06T19:50:43Z wasamasa: anyway, don't take me too seriously
2020-08-06T19:50:58Z wasamasa: I'm just curious how to make the results funnier and less random
2020-08-06T19:51:01Z arew: but I marked the end of sentence with a marked, so I now where to end the sentence.
2020-08-06T19:51:13Z arew: wasamasa: ah!
2020-08-06T19:51:27Z arew: I tried to make it less likely to spit existing irc messages.
2020-08-06T19:51:43Z wasamasa: yes, that's the downside of my suggestion :>
2020-08-06T19:51:57Z wasamasa: "what does plenken mean" is an actual sentence said here
2020-08-06T19:52:12Z wasamasa: to me the beauty of the markov approach is combining short phrases into something new and unexpected
2020-08-06T19:52:32Z wasamasa: but so is "scheme is mayonnaise"
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2020-08-06T19:53:17Z arew: no scheme is mayonnaise is genius craft of the spirit living in my computer :)
2020-08-06T19:53:32Z wasamasa: :D
2020-08-06T19:53:47Z arew: I checked the irc log... there is not appearance of "scheme is mayo..."
2020-08-06T19:54:00Z aeth: wasamasa: no, scheme is an airship
2020-08-06T19:55:08Z wasamasa: I meant to say, "scheme is mayonnaise" is beautiful, too
2020-08-06T19:55:21Z wasamasa: no matter whether it's just shorter sequences stringed together
2020-08-06T19:56:15Z arew: that is fun.
2020-08-06T19:56:47Z arew: I tried a python package with 2.5k stars, it does even manage to get this far..
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2020-08-06T19:58:47Z wasamasa: why a python package if you can do this in 100-200 lines of code
2020-08-06T19:59:43Z aeth: because there's a python library for everything!
2020-08-06T20:00:22Z arew: I read the code to understand what / how they do it, but eventually, I even did code something (at least try) but... results are disapointing.
2020-08-06T20:01:04Z arew: I do not claim the above code is perfect, but it is fun :)
2020-08-06T20:01:06Z wasamasa: size of corpus and tweaking the processing should help
2020-08-06T20:01:25Z wasamasa: the holy grail is finding multiple different text sources and blending them
2020-08-06T20:01:58Z wasamasa: like here: https://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/
2020-08-06T20:05:35Z wasamasa: hm, I remember it funnier
2020-08-06T20:06:16Z arew: it is fun :)
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2020-08-06T20:20:51Z arew: by the way, bibendum is the lating translation of "markov chain" according to google translate, also it has the last hint of last year static blog generator
2020-08-06T20:21:08Z arew: s/lating//
2020-08-06T20:21:18Z arew: s/lating/latin/
2020-08-06T20:21:49Z arew: I mean for the contest, the goal was to create a static blog generator and fill it with random post using markov chains
2020-08-06T20:23:30Z arew: based on existing scheme blogs.
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2020-08-07T01:25:14Z mdhughes: I have only compassionate or humorous condescension.
2020-08-07T01:27:52Z mdhughes: arew: What you should do is markov all the code snippets and linked pastes, see if any of it's runnable.
2020-08-07T01:36:42Z gwatt: mdhughes: Reminds me of the sigbovik paper about using OCR on paint splatters to see if they were runnable perl programs
2020-08-07T01:38:01Z mdhughes: Should try playing songs into a modem. I think that'd produce good Perl samples.
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2020-08-07T02:18:16Z arew: good idea :)
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2020-08-07T02:33:58Z jcowan: Since there is a Scheme compiler named Python, perhaps there should be a Python compiler named Scheme.  (But what should be the target? not Scheme, for sure)
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2020-08-07T02:35:43Z daviid: jcowan: there is one on guile:)
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2020-08-07T02:38:33Z jcowan: Guile supports Python as one of its langs?
2020-08-07T02:38:43Z jcowan: Racket I know does.
2020-08-07T02:39:13Z aeth: Airship is going to support Lua... pretty minimal language, I think I can go through the manual and skip the CFFI part and implement it pretty quickly.
2020-08-07T02:39:23Z aeth: might be easier than Scheme itself :-p
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2020-08-07T02:40:13Z daviid: jcowan: not 'officially',but there is a project ...
2020-08-07T02:40:29Z jcowan nods, twice
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2020-08-07T02:41:14Z aeth: The problem with Python is that you can't support many of the meaningful Python libraries because the main Python implementation is sloooooow, so the meaningful libraries use native code and you'd have to pretend to be CPython or whatever they call the main implementation
2020-08-07T02:41:20Z aeth: That has hurt PyPy adoption.
2020-08-07T02:43:06Z aeth: That and multithreading would be hard because a Python without the GIL will introduce race conditions because no one tests on such Pythons.
2020-08-07T02:43:20Z aeth: There might be a few other issues, too.
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2020-08-07T02:53:11Z daviid: fwiw, here is the project i was talking about https://gitlab.com/python-on-guile/python-on-guile/
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2020-08-07T02:58:46Z arew: web assembly!
2020-08-07T02:58:47Z arew hides
2020-08-07T02:58:48Z jcowan notes that PyPy still has a GIL, though IronPython and Jython do not
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2020-08-07T03:13:41Z arew: I tried to come up with a python compiler using Scheme, but I don't know how to implement non-tail return without call/cc
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2020-08-07T03:43:11Z erkin: jcowan: And CMUCL's native code compiler is called Python.
2020-08-07T03:44:37Z arew: Python is protected by a trademark, I got a twitter account for a project called pythonium taken down because of that.
2020-08-07T03:46:27Z daviid: arew: i pointed to the project but i personally know next to nothig about all this - i suggest, if you are still interested, that you ping stis (autho's nick) on #guile, who's i believe will be very happy to discuss the details with you ...
2020-08-07T03:46:52Z arew: pythonium was a toy python to javascript "compiler", it managed to win 600 stars via HN frontpage and webgl marketing ;)
2020-08-07T03:47:49Z arew: daviid: tx for the pointer, I might do that at some point even if I am busy, also I do not want to "feed python trolls" so I might only ask out of curiosity
2020-08-07T03:49:50Z daviid: sure
2020-08-07T03:53:59Z foof: CMUCL pre-dates Guido's toy language by a large margin
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2020-08-07T04:45:29Z aeth: jcowan: Right, but afaik my list (of two) is from PyPy's troubles, i.e. the GIL is not because they need it, but because they need it to be compatible because Python libraries, only being tested under a GIL, are full of race conditions
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2020-08-07T17:02:27Z arew: what is the plan regarding errno?  If errno is set, what should the associated procedure do? raise / return / it depends?
2020-08-07T17:03:26Z Riastradh: Context?
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2020-08-07T17:04:25Z arew: regarding scheme and R7RS?
2020-08-07T17:04:36Z arew: btw i am zig, I just changed (again) my nickname :)
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2020-08-07T17:47:37Z gwatt: arew: is this talking about srfi-170, or some other posix interaction?
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2020-08-07T17:49:52Z arew: It is related to bsd sockets.
2020-08-07T17:50:47Z arew: I read on a SRFI mailing list, SRFI-170 probably, that errno can not be retrieved reliably using cffi on all schemes because GC and other things.
2020-08-07T17:51:44Z arew: anyway, that is an implementation detail I guess. My question is (again?) how to properly do error handling with Scheme. It seems to me the answer is: it depends.
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2020-08-07T17:54:52Z aeth: arew: Iirc, and it has been a while and I could be wrong, but I thought the problem with errno via CFFI is that you use a C macro to get it and C macros are hard to reliably CFFI?
2020-08-07T17:55:43Z gwatt: arew: "it depends" is always the answer! But why worry about how other schemes work? You have a "favorite" scheme; focus on that scheme's gotchas.
2020-08-07T17:55:50Z aeth: arew: Ah, yeah, there it is. "errno may be a macro" https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/errno.3.html
2020-08-07T17:56:21Z aeth: "errno is thread-local" might also be an issue
2020-08-07T17:57:07Z gwatt: Yeah, when I was playing around with C<->scheme I wrote a utility function to retrieve the errno value.
2020-08-07T17:57:30Z Riastradh: If you're trying to expose POSIX, you should reliably expose the errno value set for any particular library call.
2020-08-07T17:58:02Z Riastradh: If you want a higher-level wrapper that raises an exception for any error, that's fine too, but make sure that programs can do a system call and discriminate between success and any particular errno value.
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2020-08-07T18:10:51Z duncanm: la la la
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2020-08-07T18:27:10Z zaifir`: arew: I saw that. :)  Why GitHub even *has* emoji...
2020-08-07T18:28:15Z arew: zaifir`: :D
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2020-08-07T18:29:40Z zaifir`: I recall a website named "Imgur" which became such a popular hosting provider that its owners decided "Hey, you know what our users actually want?  A social media network!"
2020-08-07T18:29:55Z arew: lulz
2020-08-07T18:30:00Z zaifir`: GitHub continues the new tradition.
2020-08-07T18:30:18Z arew: zaifir`: did you try github actions? worst failure in ci world ever...
2020-08-07T18:30:43Z arew: a collegue attributes github actions to microsoft.
2020-08-07T18:32:09Z zaifir`: arew: I haven't tried them.  I try to stay away from GitHub-only features, except in the case of developers who ignore any issue/PR that is not made through GitHub.
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2020-08-07T18:32:28Z wasamasa: ugh
2020-08-07T18:32:47Z wasamasa: imgur happened after reddit though
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2020-08-07T18:33:18Z aeth: imgur happened because reddit didn't host images, but reddit was increasingly used just to link to meme images and all image hosters were bad at doing that (or bad at handling reddit traffic).
2020-08-07T18:34:02Z aeth: Then once imgur started going downhill (and started directly competing with reddit), reddit started hosting images first party (which probably greatly increased its expenses) and the illusion of reddit as a link aggregator for mostly digg-like news-ish things went away
2020-08-07T18:35:17Z zaifir`: Yes.
2020-08-07T18:35:26Z aeth: All software used to bloat until it included email. Now, all websites bloat until they're "social" and all social websites bloat until they include chat.
2020-08-07T18:35:39Z zaifir`: Reddit is unrecognizable today from 10 years ago.
2020-08-07T18:35:40Z aeth: (Thus meaning all websites bloat until they include chat)
2020-08-07T18:35:49Z zaifir`: Exactly.
2020-08-07T18:36:17Z aeth: zaifir`: /r/all is unrecognizable, but if you just went to /r/lisp on old.reddit.com (or with old enabled in preferences) you wouldn't notice a thing has changed in 10 years
2020-08-07T18:36:51Z aeth: except that one time one day when a crappy meme reached #1 all time in /r/lisp because reddit is built for crappy memes out-noising everything else as long as moderators don't remove them
2020-08-07T18:37:10Z zaifir`: The break comes when a service provider switches to methods which suck for the service, but which help the budding social-media project, e.g. when Imgur started massively compressing everything uploaded, IIRC.
2020-08-07T18:37:39Z toppo: forums are not as dynamic as email, may be a reason they end up adding chats
2020-08-07T18:37:50Z toppo: maybe an in between is needed
2020-08-07T18:38:02Z toppo: tada I just made a new startup :P
2020-08-07T18:38:07Z aeth: toppo: no, the thing is, "chat bots" were the hyped thing of the day a few years ago to the point where everyone was doing them and everyone was getting funded because of them.
2020-08-07T18:38:08Z zaifir`: There is something called "IRC"...
2020-08-07T18:38:12Z aeth: toppo: but to have chat bots you need to have chat
2020-08-07T18:38:36Z toppo: yeah I like IRC
2020-08-07T18:39:13Z aeth: the only remnant from the chat craze in VC tech funding is Discord and all of the mostly-disused integrated website chat features
2020-08-07T18:39:18Z toppo: tbh, it's I'm not sure whether to join them now and make a better one >:D
2020-08-07T18:39:27Z zaifir`: I'd like to burn them.
2020-08-07T18:39:48Z toppo: doesn't it feel like we are swimming upstream sometimes
2020-08-07T18:39:53Z aeth: toppo: I think the hype train has moved on past the "chat bot" station, but it might come back one day
2020-08-07T18:40:31Z toppo: I'm not sure sure, since the pandemic still looms on, but then I don't pay attention to that stuff
2020-08-07T18:40:32Z aeth: Right now, video conferencing might be the current hyped thing. You know, writing a "Zoom kiler"
2020-08-07T18:40:52Z toppo: yeah
2020-08-07T18:40:55Z aeth: expect to see a trickle of video conferencing stuff in like 18 months well after they would have been useful, which would've been March this year
2020-08-07T18:41:10Z toppo: but personally I dislike video chat, cause it seems you know, personal
2020-08-07T18:41:28Z toppo: I don't mind audio chat ... but wait, isn't that just a conference call :P
2020-08-07T18:41:58Z aeth: I dislike video chat because (1) my desktop doesn't even have a webcam, (2) hooking up a random webcam into a Linux desktop is non-trivial because the drivers might not support it (surprisingly, a place where laptops tend to "just work" on Linux and desktops don't, at least when I last checked)
2020-08-07T18:42:01Z toppo: doesn't seem hard to make a zoom killer tbh
2020-08-07T18:42:09Z aeth: and (3) I'd literally need like a greenscreen or something if I did video chat
2020-08-07T18:42:15Z aeth: my room is not presentable
2020-08-07T18:42:27Z toppo: yeah that last one hits home :)
2020-08-07T18:42:42Z toppo: for both presenters and listeners, it just feels a bit to invasive to me
2020-08-07T18:42:59Z toppo: fortunately it works over the web so I can keep it at bay in firefox
2020-08-07T18:43:33Z aeth: Yes, although quite a lot of them don't let you go through with video disabled if you disable the video at the Firefox level.
2020-08-07T18:43:36Z aeth: Same with mic
2020-08-07T18:43:53Z aeth: Like, you join some video conference thing to *view* and be muted, but they require video/mic permissions you're not going to use
2020-08-07T18:44:29Z toppo: interesting
2020-08-07T18:44:34Z aeth: Iirc, Cisco Webex.
2020-08-07T18:44:58Z aeth: But I think another did the same thing.
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2020-08-07T18:45:56Z gwatt: I just ran into cisco webex earlier this week. Had to do a video call to get our marriage license, and I couldn't get webex to work in FF.
2020-08-07T18:46:11Z toppo: :/
2020-08-07T18:46:35Z gwatt: I ended up using the android app, and then deleted it immediately after
2020-08-07T18:46:47Z aeth: See, that's the thing, at the point where I had to use Webex and it didn't work, I only had Firefox installed. Now I have Chromium installed, wasting space and wasting bandwidth whenever it chooses to update, just because some things only support the IE6 2.0 browser, but now with added spyware/adware.
2020-08-07T18:46:58Z aeth: Fuck Cisco.
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2020-08-07T18:48:11Z toppo: I guess people in general have become used to "free" software unfortunately
2020-08-07T18:48:14Z aeth: Apps are worse because you have to assume that pretty much every app is spyware/adware that will abuse permissions to steal your data. Thanks, Google. At least browsers are a fairly trustworthy sandbox.
2020-08-07T18:49:09Z toppo: I remember thinking, how is this a free service, especially when it hit peak (crazy) hype and our school president tried to host a schoolwide zoom call
2020-08-07T18:49:15Z aeth: toppo: Be direct. Call it spyware/adware. Do not accept the language change from 2004-era language. If these apps were just early 2000s-era freeware, it would be OK.
2020-08-07T18:49:44Z aeth: Stuff antiviruses used to remove 15 years ago are now the norm from respectable companies.
2020-08-07T18:49:51Z aeth: Heck, Windows 10 itself.
2020-08-07T18:50:09Z toppo: yeah :(
2020-08-07T18:50:53Z aeth: For another example, Sony's music CD rootkit was a really big deal back in the day, but now no one complains about rootkit-level anticheat in most MP PC games.
2020-08-07T18:51:37Z aeth: No one would even notice if people didn't try to play those games in wine or under Windows VMs.
2020-08-07T18:52:51Z toppo: it's so crazy cause, on one side there's folks creating this as a norm, and on the other side a growing amount of folks in which it's all they every knew
2020-08-07T18:53:40Z toppo: then they say it's what folks want :|
2020-08-07T18:53:45Z zaifir`: aeth: "IE6 2.0 browser"  Bingo.
2020-08-07T18:54:08Z aeth: Oh... I said most "MP PC games", but it was also added, after launch so it didn't affect reviews, to Doom Eternal's single player. Fortunately, people complained loudly enough in that case.
2020-08-07T18:55:13Z toppo: there's a new era of open hardware on the horizon though :)
2020-08-07T18:55:22Z zaifir`: aeth: Yeah, it's really bizarre to remember a time in which DRM was actually a big deal to people outside the hacker world.
2020-08-07T18:55:36Z zaifir`: toppo: Hopefully!
2020-08-07T18:55:49Z aeth: zaifir`: I mean, sometimes I get pushback when I call Chrome IE6 2.0. "But Chrome uses standards!" Doesn't matter if it has quirks that people write to and the end result is "works best in Chrome" or "only works in Chrome"
2020-08-07T18:56:16Z zaifir` remembers the John Deere-users Right To Repair movement.
2020-08-07T18:56:20Z aeth: The fact of the matter is, last time I had to open up a non-preferred browser in order to get something to work, it was IE 6. Until I had to install Chromium recently.
2020-08-07T18:56:21Z zaifir`: Wait, I'm being an idiot.
2020-08-07T18:56:32Z toppo: and seemingly a new computer arch era in general, in which compiler design (or software) is getting more recognized
2020-08-07T18:57:45Z zaifir`: aeth: And the pile of features is sooooo much higher now.
2020-08-07T18:58:24Z zaifir`: toppo: RISC V?
2020-08-07T18:58:41Z toppo: yeah and j-core
2020-08-07T18:58:56Z aeth: toppo: The only good thing about Nvidia buying ARM is that everyone who holds an ARM license who isn't Nvidia will now be incentivized to get behind RISC V as a defensive move. Especially makers of mobile GPUs.
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2020-08-07T18:59:38Z aeth: And it's happening just after Apple announced the switch to ARM, too. Hah. Maybe Mac-on-ARM will be short lived.
2020-08-07T18:59:40Z toppo: I didn't know they had that kinda cash tbh
2020-08-07T18:59:41Z zaifir`: aeth: Wait, when did Nvidia buy ARM?
2020-08-07T18:59:59Z aeth: "Nvidia is reportedly in ‘advanced talks’ to buy ARM for more than $32B" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24009177
2020-08-07T19:00:09Z zaifir`: DOOM.
2020-08-07T19:00:18Z aeth: zaifir`: Nobody else has the ability to pay > 3x the actual value of ARM holdings, so it's going to happen unless regulators block it, which they won't
2020-08-07T19:00:43Z aeth: There's a "synergy" in that now Nvidia can pressure ARM licensees to use its (anti-Linux) GPUs
2020-08-07T19:01:09Z zaifir`: Hmm, patents on the world's-most-used architecture in the hands of a company infamous for hardball anticompetitev tactics.  I'd like to hear some better news.
2020-08-07T19:01:20Z zaifir`: Anticompetitive, even.
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2020-08-07T19:03:22Z toppo: I'm unfamiliar with these topics, but how would they make such a move now? everything not ms office based is linux now pretty much
2020-08-07T19:03:58Z aeth: zaifir`: What do you mean "anti-competitive"? There's competition in this space. Intel, AMD, and Nvidia. And, uh... Qualcomm? Apple (but you can't buy their designs)?
2020-08-07T19:04:07Z X-Scale: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/313471-arm-co-founder-sale-to-nvidia-would-be-a-disaster
2020-08-07T19:04:30Z toppo: why wouldn't say Apple try to buy arm?
2020-08-07T19:05:02Z zaifir`: aeth: Just as there's competition in the US telecom market.  Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, Charter.
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2020-08-07T19:05:24Z zaifir`: Oops, forgot Comcast.
2020-08-07T19:05:44Z aeth: Well, I mean for cellular you have Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, and T-Mobile. Oops. Sorry, "Sprint is joining forces with T-Mobile" or however they're spinning it. I guess they're like the Avengers?
2020-08-07T19:06:30Z zaifir`: Ridding the universe of reasonable prices.
2020-08-07T19:07:10Z aeth: toppo: Apple doesn't license their ARM design out to people. Apple despises Nvidia, though, so they're probably not very happy about Nvidia's attempt to buy ARM right now. Especially the timing of it, right after Apple announced that they're leaving Intel for ARM.
2020-08-07T19:08:16Z aeth: Nvidia might try to use the contract renegotiation, whenever that is, to force Apple to use Nvidia GPUs again.
2020-08-07T19:08:35Z toppo: unfortunate timing for apple I guess, they seem to have looked into arm for some time, but I can't tell how long they decide on switching arch
2020-08-07T19:09:29Z zaifir`: Given that a majority (?) of phones run Linux on ARM, and given Nvidia's history of despising Linux, I wonder how future ARM kernel development would work.
2020-08-07T19:10:24Z aeth: zaifir`: To be fair, the nvidia-driver proprietary kmod works, and isn't as bad as it used to be. I use an nvidia GPU on my desktop.
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2020-08-07T19:10:57Z aeth: You just have to automatically recompile it every time you update the kernel, but cellphones running Linux never run updates, anyway.
2020-08-07T19:11:58Z aeth: The third party RPM Fusion repository for Fedora has an akmod-nvidia package that handles all of this, and you don't even notice the compile time if you have a R9 3900X.
2020-08-07T19:12:12Z zaifir`: It's 2030, and everyone's phone runs a secure-booted signed-by-Nvidia kernel variant.
2020-08-07T19:12:19Z gwatt: aeth: what if I have a Phenom II 945?
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2020-08-07T19:12:39Z aeth: gwatt: then you have to wait before rebooting after you update the kernel
2020-08-07T19:14:09Z aeth: zaifir`: I mean, to be fair, everyone's ARM phone probably *already* runs a custom Linux kernel variant with lots of built-in drivers for things like the vendor GPU, and it will probably never get updated.
2020-08-07T19:14:29Z aeth: (* except for iPhones, of course)
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2020-08-07T19:17:26Z zaifir`: aeth: Of course.  The substitution "s/Google/Nvidia/" seems to make things a *little* worse...
2020-08-07T19:18:00Z aeth: zaifir`: well, it's more like s/Qualcomm/Nvidia/ or whoever makes the current mobile GPUs (yes, Nvidia has their own, but they're not very popular... the most notable user is the Nintendo Switch, but that's a game console)
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2020-08-07T19:19:26Z aeth: zaifir`: I think there's actually a lot of competition in this space because everyone who couldn't compete with ATI or Nvidia in the desktop/laptop GPU space wound up moving to embedded/mobile back before the days of everyone owning smartphones.
2020-08-07T19:19:34Z aeth: Competition that Nvidia is now probably going after.
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2020-08-07T19:24:19Z aeth: zaifir`: Personally, I think the only hope for hardware is for someone to revive the Symbolics brand and rescue us. Basically, the King Arthur of the Lisp world. Right now, the personification of Symbolics is in Avalon hanging out with King Arthur. I'm not sure who's going to return first.
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2020-08-07T19:26:46Z aeth: Apparently, it's a very popular myth, actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_asleep_in_mountain
2020-08-07T19:30:21Z zaifir`: aeth: Interesting, I didn't know mobile GPUs were so diverse.
2020-08-07T19:30:26Z zaifir`: aeth: Also, funny.
2020-08-07T19:31:08Z aeth: zaifir`: If by "so diverse", you mean "I think there might be more than 3 companies in that space, but I haven't checked", then yes, that's my view at the moment.
2020-08-07T19:32:37Z aeth: "Modern smartphones also use mostly Adreno GPUs from Qualcomm, PowerVR GPUs from Imagination Technologies and Mali GPUs from ARM." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_processing_unit#GPU_companies
2020-08-07T19:33:19Z aeth: Heh, so 3 major ones, arguably exactly the same as the PC space where it's Intel/Nvidia/AMD (or more than PC if you only count discrete, which are Nvidia/AMD).
2020-08-07T19:34:16Z aeth: I wonder what the marketshare of Nvidia Tegra is, though. Probably much higher than the #4 in the desktop space (Matrox?)
2020-08-07T19:36:51Z aeth: That's outdated, though, because Apple apparently uses a custom GPU in its SoC, so there are at least 4 major players in the smartphone GPU space, unless one of the listed ones is no longer popular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A13
2020-08-07T19:37:09Z jcowan: The BBS software I wrote long long ago in a galaxy remarkably close expanded to include chat, because otherwise people polluted the posting areas with one-liners.
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2020-08-07T19:39:11Z aeth: jcowan: did the BBS use Scheme?
2020-08-07T19:39:43Z jcowan: No.  In fact, it was written in a fairly capable Basic.
2020-08-07T19:40:01Z jcowan: And not so much with one-liners as strings of them.
2020-08-07T19:40:45Z jcowan: However, posts were hierarchical and could be moved about by the sysop; there were also sub-sysops who had sysop powers over certain subtrees.
2020-08-07T19:41:12Z aeth: hierarchical? subtrees? So posts were threaded? That's pretty cutting edge, it took forever for threaded posts to take off outside of email.
2020-08-07T19:41:54Z aeth: (or whatever the proper terminology is, it's been a while)
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2020-08-07T21:46:38Z arew: they took off? it seems to me it is still a power user feature.
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2020-08-07T22:45:29Z jcowan: aeth: The BBS displayed the welcome message, which was the root of the tree, and the titles of all children.  You could navigate down the tree by picking a child, in which you'd see that post and the titles of its children, if any.  You could also go up the treee with the "up" command.
2020-08-07T22:46:03Z jcowan: At any point you could add a post, which would become the latest child of the currently displayed post; if a sysop thought it was misplaced, they could move it.  The tree was seeded with a bunch of topics as first- and second-order children.
2020-08-07T22:46:24Z jcowan: There were also entirely separate commands "forward" and "back" for chronological movement.
2020-08-07T22:46:49Z jcowan: So it was more like navigating an outliner than a forum.
2020-08-07T22:48:10Z zaifir` is now known as zaifir
2020-08-07T22:51:22Z jcowan: the original bbs content is lost forever, but a similarly designed bbs is still up (read-only) at http://stuartii.pyrzqxgl.com:6502/0.html, which can give you the feel of using it.  The "walk" command does a depth-first traversal starting where you are.
2020-08-07T22:52:39Z aeth: I've probably noticed and said this before but [1] isn't the ideal test for testing R7RS-small while implementing it because you basically can't parse it correctly without a complete reader.
2020-08-07T22:52:43Z aeth: [1] https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r7rs-tests.scm
2020-08-07T22:53:17Z aeth: Even the Github syntax highlighter messes up around line 2246 (and several times after that)
2020-08-07T22:56:20Z aeth: jcowan: Yes, that's similar to what I expected from my parsing of your original description. All you would have needed is an upvote/downvote way to sort replies and it would be a *surprisingly* modern approach.
2020-08-07T22:58:25Z aeth: A bit different from something like HN or Reddit, but still recognizable if it had voting.
2020-08-07T22:59:56Z jcowan: Credit for the general design goes to Dave Winer, whose early work in outliners brought him in touch (somehow) with Nick Turner.  It was Turner, however, who rotated the outliner 90% to make it a (CS) tree.
2020-08-07T23:00:38Z aeth: jcowan: Did any of them directly inspire or work for Slashdot or digg or whatever started/popularized the modern trend as continued in sites like Reddit and Hacker News?
2020-08-07T23:00:47Z jcowan: Not that I know of.
2020-08-07T23:00:59Z aeth: I wonder if the tree-like nature was independently rediscovered, then
2020-08-07T23:01:27Z jcowan: Probably.  Those who reinvent the wheel generally come up with a hexagonal design, though.
2020-08-07T23:01:57Z jcowan: Also, you can display a lot more content at "you are here" if you are not restricted by a 1200 baud or even 9600 baud modem.
2020-08-07T23:02:25Z aeth: Well, directly adding voting to your old system would still produce something that's a bit different from the Reddit-clone approach... perhaps different enough to be interesting, while still being recognizable.
2020-08-07T23:03:09Z aeth: And, yes, the modern sites usually show a lot of the replies directly on the same page, which probably wouldn't have even made that much of a difference when screens were so small
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2020-08-07T23:08:51Z jcowan: Screens?  What are these screens of which you speak?
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2020-08-07T23:09:25Z jcowan: (Most people didn't actually have printing terminals, but TTY mode was the least common denominator)
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2020-08-07T23:23:33Z bitmapper: jcowan: you are everywhere jeez
2020-08-07T23:24:05Z jcowan: It's a consequence of my general interest in almost everything.
2020-08-07T23:25:44Z bitmapper: i recently started thinking about learning lojban, which is why i bring that up
2020-08-07T23:26:05Z aeth: jcowan: So is that how Unicode wound up with almost everything?
2020-08-07T23:26:24Z jcowan: No.  But it is why I take an interest in it.
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2020-08-07T23:28:07Z aeth: bitmapper: So, on the topic from #lispcafe ... I do think you might be able to port Yale Haskell to Airship Scheme when Airship's ready.
2020-08-07T23:28:22Z aeth: Considering that it requires an almost-Scheme in CL.
2020-08-07T23:28:38Z bitmapper: i was going to give pseudoscheme a try at first
2020-08-07T23:28:54Z aeth: Pseudoscheme's dead or I wouldn't have even started
2020-08-07T23:29:18Z bitmapper: someone forked it to work on modern machines tho
2020-08-07T23:29:23Z aeth: Yeah, but any added features you needed would have to be done by you
2020-08-07T23:29:31Z bitmapper: yea
2020-08-07T23:29:34Z bitmapper: but i didn't need them
2020-08-07T23:29:45Z bitmapper: because yale is from the same time period
2020-08-07T23:32:28Z aeth: Doesn't Yale Haskell predate monads? So you'll at the very least have to add them.
2020-08-07T23:32:37Z aeth: Otherwise you can't participate in Haskell memes like https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3870088/a-monad-is-just-a-monoid-in-the-category-of-endofunctors-whats-the-problem
2020-08-07T23:32:37Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/Om1IqaWDYg
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2020-08-07T23:32:58Z jgart: how can I return a new list that collects the lists that have 1 as a common atom. Give the following list: ((0 1 2) (1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5) (4 5 6) (5 6 7) (6 7 8) (7 8 9) (8 9 10) (9 10 11) (10 11 0) (11 0 1))
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2020-08-07T23:33:16Z jgart: I want to return: '((0 1 2) (1 2 3) (11 0 1))
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2020-08-07T23:35:28Z jgart: any help or hints are greatly appreciated
2020-08-07T23:39:32Z aeth: jgart: As a hint, the procedure (lambda (l) (member 1 l)) is true (it's not #t, but anything not #f is true) if 1 is in l and #f if 1 is not in l.
2020-08-07T23:39:57Z sm2n: aeth, the latest iteration is "a monad is a lax functor over a terminal bicategory, what's the problem?"
2020-08-07T23:40:28Z aeth: jgart: From there, something in SRFI 1 will probably give you what you want. https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html
2020-08-07T23:40:42Z aeth: (since you specified hints, I don't want to solve the entire thing)
2020-08-07T23:41:18Z jgart: aeth, I think that is enough for me to work with. Thank you!
2020-08-07T23:41:23Z aeth: you're welcome
2020-08-07T23:42:09Z bitmapper: aeth: yes it does, just not do notation, and monads are useful
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2020-08-07T23:45:05Z aeth: hmm... I had 3 copies of r7rs.pdf open
2020-08-07T23:45:39Z bitmapper: mood
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2020-08-08T00:33:13Z zaifir: bitmapper: ju'o .e'u ko cilre fi la lojban
2020-08-08T00:33:43Z bitmapper: haha, i said i've been thinking about learning it, i don't know it yet
2020-08-08T00:34:37Z zaifir: bitmapper: It's worth it. :)
2020-08-08T00:35:06Z zaifir: (by standard "me")
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2020-08-08T00:43:28Z aeth: Has anyone translated r7rs.pdf into Lojban yet?
2020-08-08T00:45:35Z zaifir: Ooh, there's a project.
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2020-08-08T00:46:26Z zaifir: I would *really* like to see the formal semantics in mekso.
2020-08-08T00:48:15Z aeth: oh, right, formal semantics. I guess chapter 7 makes the Lojban translation unnecessary. :-p
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2020-08-08T01:10:58Z aeth: ugh, I remember spending time cleaning up §7.1 as a plain text file because it didn't copy/paste the <>s correctly from the PDF
2020-08-08T01:11:12Z aeth: but despite spending hours on it a while back, I can't find where I placed the file
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2020-08-08T01:12:58Z aeth: (and, yes, they're not really < and >, they're some other bracket pair like ⟨⟩ or 〈〉but that's not what pasted either)
2020-08-08T01:14:38Z zaifir: aeth: They're the inner product brackets.
2020-08-08T01:20:34Z zaifir: aeth: And then there are the more obscure "syntactic" brackets, ⟦ and ⟧
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2020-08-08T01:24:03Z jcowan: There are an awful lot of bracket-pairs in Unicode.
2020-08-08T01:24:54Z erkin: Plenty of opportunities for syntactic extensions!
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2020-08-08T01:27:34Z zaifir: There's a part of me that would like ⟦ ⟧ to do what #' does in syntax-case.
2020-08-08T01:27:54Z zaifir: But that way lies Agda.
2020-08-08T01:32:47Z aeth: zaifir: sounds possible... really, Emacs supports Unicode well enough for that and it's not like the coding environment for Lisps is passable anywhere outside of Emacs
2020-08-08T01:33:54Z zaifir: aeth: Sure.  But we are Lispers, and parens are untouchable.
2020-08-08T01:34:09Z zaifir: (Except for the square-bracket heretics.)
2020-08-08T01:34:42Z Riastradh: Elliott Parens played by Kevin Costner
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2020-08-08T01:38:32Z jcowan: THe main limitation isn't Unicode, it's the keyboard.  We just can't cope with a keyboard containing more than about 10^3 characters.
2020-08-08T01:39:53Z jcowan: (My Windows keyboard driver handles that many using Alt+key and Alt+key key sequences.
2020-08-08T01:40:19Z jcowan: Of course, it is a superset of the Knight keyboard.  But then again, it only does Latin and mathematician's Greek.
2020-08-08T01:46:33Z jcowan: aeth: In the Matter of Cambridge, I have heard the words of the First Prophet and the Second Prophet on Zoom, and I myself prophesy that the return of Arthur may, I say may, be fairly imminent.  The stars are right, and we too may be able to leap from world to world through the L-machine.
2020-08-08T01:46:39Z jcowan: I have spoken.
2020-08-08T01:57:06Z aeth: jcowan: for a second there I thought you were really being prophetic and were talking about #lispcafe without being there, but then I realized I said a bunch of off-topic stuff in here earlier
2020-08-08T01:57:33Z aeth: well, except that Symbolics is like King Arthur and will return one day. That's on-topic
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2020-08-08T02:14:56Z jcowan: I am really being prophetic about "King Arthur" and the L-machine, and every word I said was true.
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2020-08-08T02:15:21Z jcowan: But I can't go beyond that because $NDA.
2020-08-08T02:15:59Z jcowan: But I assure you it is on-topic, or at least on-topic for ##lisp if not here.
2020-08-08T02:24:03Z aeth: Any Lisp machine capable of running Common Lisp should be capable of running Scheme...
2020-08-08T02:24:23Z aeth: I haven't proven this, though.
2020-08-08T02:24:34Z aeth: So consider this speculation for now. :-)
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2020-08-08T02:50:02Z aeth: oh, there it is, it's on my laptop and not my desktop
2020-08-08T02:50:20Z aeth: I really should just sync the entirety of ~/notes even though they're massive.
2020-08-08T02:50:31Z aeth: Also, searching for 'intraline whitespace' was easier than guessing which bracket I used
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2020-08-08T03:07:35Z jcowan: aeth: Or push them all to Github.
2020-08-08T03:07:45Z jcowan: (now that private repos are free)
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2020-08-08T03:11:49Z aeth: They're 2 GB (desktop) and 3 GB (laptop), so I suspect that if I used a git repo I'd have to separate text from everything else and just be more organized in general than just dumping everything into ~/notes.
2020-08-08T03:12:30Z aeth: But I probably should at some point.
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2020-08-08T03:19:56Z jcowan: yes, free repos are limited to 500 MB, it seems
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2020-08-08T04:12:32Z aeth: jcowan: Are the first and second prophets Sussman and Steele?
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2020-08-08T04:32:59Z zaifir: aeth: That's rather hard on McCarthy, let alone Alonzo Church.
2020-08-08T04:33:52Z aeth: zaifir: Yes, McCarthy would have been my first guess, but if jcowan is speaking to McCarthy on Zoom, then I wonder how much that subscription is costing.
2020-08-08T04:34:29Z zaifir laughs.
2020-08-08T04:35:09Z zaifir: The subscription is reasonable and the video quality excellent... in the Twilight Zone.
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2020-08-08T07:23:44Z foof: aeth: there are a few raw rationals and towards the end there are some raw +inf.0 and +nan.0, but apart from that no fancy syntax - no #; or quoted symbols
2020-08-08T07:24:08Z foof: github's highlighting is failing on a very basic case of a \" in a string
2020-08-08T07:25:47Z aeth: maybe Github is, but even my very incomplete reader can already handle "\""
2020-08-08T07:25:50Z aeth: I think it's failing on '|\"|
2020-08-08T07:26:02Z aeth: this makes sense because I haven't added a path for | yet
2020-08-08T07:26:09Z aeth: I'm probably failing at the same spot
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2020-08-08T07:28:29Z aeth: That whole section is quoted-and-escaped symbols. afaik.
2020-08-08T07:30:35Z aeth: If I'm reading it properly, it's testing that e.g. '|.| stays escaped as |.| but '|a| is just a because it doesn't need to be escaped when written
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2020-08-08T08:11:26Z arew: hack'n'chat mode: on.
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2020-08-08T11:42:20Z arew: ...
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2020-08-08T11:50:41Z arew: I hate to do that but I did it nonetheless. I delete the whole http parser I created to re-code it from scratch :')
2020-08-08T11:51:27Z arew: All this because it did not support faulty eof during the parse.
2020-08-08T11:52:44Z arew: in practice this is not a problem because the upstream proxy e.g. nginx will reply 400 or something before it reach my server..
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2020-08-08T12:00:32Z arew: along the way I devised this snippet: https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=2eb3c76382db670998a0a87432b8d2fd7a087166
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2020-08-08T18:56:39Z arew: zaifir: what is up regarding wikibook on scheme?
2020-08-08T18:58:40Z zaifir: arew: It's coming.  I haven't added much in the last month, but I'll get back to it soon.
2020-08-08T18:58:54Z zaifir: arew: Contribute, if you like.
2020-08-08T19:03:41Z arew: I am busy, I need to release my last year work done with arew
2020-08-08T19:03:50Z arew: https://en.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Scheme_Programming&action=history
2020-08-08T19:04:47Z arew: maybe in september I will have more time for that.
2020-08-08T19:06:10Z aeth: note to self, finish Airship Scheme before September and change the Scheme WikiBook to use it :-p
2020-08-08T19:06:10Z zaifir: I'd like the later sections of the wikibook to cover popular SRFIs, other libraries, and "advanced" Scheme programming, since there aren't many cogent books on those topics.
2020-08-08T19:06:45Z arew: aeth: heyhey
2020-08-08T19:07:53Z arew: maybe it will be a good thing to dedicate some time together to work on the book, instead of "one day I will..." we decide to dedicate whole september to the wikibook
2020-08-08T19:08:10Z arew: that way we motivate each other.
2020-08-08T19:09:53Z zaifir: Sure, that's a good plan.
2020-08-08T19:10:50Z arew: tinyscheme is definitive choice? I am not going to try to convince you to use arew, but chibi :)
2020-08-08T19:11:20Z arew: why tinyscheme? just historical choice?
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2020-08-08T19:18:30Z aeth: tinyscheme is used in GIMP
2020-08-08T19:18:43Z aeth: the original author might have learned Scheme for GIMP?
2020-08-08T19:31:52Z zaifir: arew: Absolutely not.
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2020-08-08T19:32:47Z zaifir: arew: I haven't edited the pages on which Scheme implementation to use to follow along, but I'd like the book to be basically implementation-agnostic.
2020-08-08T19:33:09Z zaifir: arew: Though I'm using R7RS, not R5, when it matters.
2020-08-08T19:33:23Z aeth: zaifir: R7RS is basically implementation-agnostic
2020-08-08T19:33:56Z wasamasa: until you use libraries
2020-08-08T19:34:11Z wasamasa: then it becomes annoying to figure out how exactly you have to massage them to be loaded up
2020-08-08T19:34:17Z aeth: even stuff in chibi-scheme/lib are sometimes portable, which is a bit amusing
2020-08-08T19:34:20Z wasamasa: but who knows, maybe snow2 fixed that
2020-08-08T19:35:23Z zaifir: arew: I'd like to include a page on getting various Schemes running on various platforms, but it's going to be tedious to write.
2020-08-08T19:35:36Z zaifir: (and probably quite unreliable)
2020-08-08T19:35:37Z aeth: 108 cond-expand matches, which imo is interesting. https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/search?q=cond-expand&unscoped_q=cond-expand
2020-08-08T19:35:48Z aeth: Most are for chibi vs. others
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2020-08-08T19:36:05Z aeth: this has a path for chicken: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/0efa071672184936741640bb9d06012c7bdbb596/lib/chibi/temp-file.sld
2020-08-08T19:38:44Z aeth: For now, Airship Scheme is essentially structured the same was as chibi-scheme, but I do it top-level instead of under a /lib
2020-08-08T19:40:17Z aeth: I might even eventually have a chibi directory for independently-reimplemented chibi libraries if I need it to port code. (Or I could just put a LICENSE.txt in that subdirectory that's 3-clause BSD instead of MIT.)
2020-08-08T19:40:49Z aeth: e.g. (chibi test)
2020-08-08T19:42:48Z aeth: I actually don't know how other R7RSes have ported (chibi test) if they have
2020-08-08T19:43:08Z aeth: It appears to run in chicken... https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/lib/chibi/test.sld
2020-08-08T19:43:38Z aeth: oh, it probably runs via http://snow-fort.org/pkg/
2020-08-08T19:45:16Z aeth: wasamasa: You've used Snow? How does Snow handle SRFIs if it has it as a library, but an implementation has already included it? Especially if e.g. Snow has a SRFI that winds up in R7RS-large.
2020-08-08T19:45:25Z wasamasa: I didn't, that's the problem
2020-08-08T19:45:53Z wasamasa: and the website doesn't exactly instill confidence in me
2020-08-08T19:47:01Z aeth: HTTP in 2020 doesn't instill confidence in me, but hey Quicklisp in CL still uses HTTP even though its website is HTTPS. (I think QL's issue is portably using HTTPS on every CL implementation without being able to use libraries since the libraries are obtained from QL itself.)
2020-08-08T19:47:15Z wasamasa: ah, indeed
2020-08-08T19:47:22Z wasamasa: a great reason to be pardoned
2020-08-08T19:47:40Z wasamasa: come to think of it, I'm sure CHICKEN has the same problem
2020-08-08T19:47:54Z aeth: I do think Snow probably solves the "built-in" problem because it has a ton of (chibi foo) and it's built into chibi-scheme... but it might solve it by trusting the library over the built-in and 'upgrading', which might not be the right thing to do with SRFIs, which can be independently implemented
2020-08-08T19:48:04Z wasamasa: the tool for testing eggs is dependency-free and still does basic HTTP requests
2020-08-08T19:48:14Z aeth: (or in my hypothetical, independently implementing (chibi test) to run the R7RS tests without having two differently licensed parts of code)
2020-08-08T19:48:16Z wasamasa: I doubt the package installer is different
2020-08-08T19:48:41Z zaifir: Well, the OpenBSD package manager fetches everything over FTP...
2020-08-08T19:48:43Z wasamasa: so if I ever pull something like with melpa forcing https on them, there will be lots of confused screaming afterwards
2020-08-08T19:49:12Z aeth: zaifir: that's fine as long as you checksum them, assuming you can transmit the checksum securely.
2020-08-08T19:49:21Z zaifir: aeth: Exactly my point.
2020-08-08T19:49:28Z zaifir: Snow should start using signify(1).
2020-08-08T19:49:40Z aeth: Worst case scenario, an overly zealous filter filters the URL because it e.g. has "sex" in it (the "Middlesex" problem of the HTTP internet)
2020-08-08T19:49:45Z aeth: And the update fails, but it's not tampered with
2020-08-08T19:49:50Z wasamasa: we've had that
2020-08-08T19:49:55Z aeth: Quicklisp had that in #lisp at least once, too
2020-08-08T19:50:01Z aeth: Several years ago
2020-08-08T19:50:02Z wasamasa: someone had to rename their library from cock to hahn
2020-08-08T19:50:20Z zaifir laughs.
2020-08-08T19:50:51Z zaifir: Not just censorship, Anglo-centric censorship.
2020-08-08T19:51:30Z aeth: The only weird thing is that it's canonically called the "Scunthrope" problem (from 1996, apparently). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem
2020-08-08T19:51:30Z arew: zaifir: there is docker...
2020-08-08T19:51:50Z aeth: For like 10 years I only heard of it as a problem with "sex" like e.g. "Essex", "Sussex", "Middlesex"
2020-08-08T19:52:28Z aeth: Wikipedia only started [[Scunthorpe problem]] in 2007, and I only encountered the name years later.
2020-08-08T19:52:36Z zaifir: arew: Someone else will have to write that, as I know little of Docker.
2020-08-08T19:52:37Z aeth: s/2007/2005/
2020-08-08T19:52:50Z aeth: (weird how going oldest first doesn't put the oldest on top in Wikipedia's history)
2020-08-08T19:53:19Z arew: zaifir: it is already a thing https://github.com/scheme-containers/
2020-08-08T19:53:31Z arew: zaifir: but it would be nice to have a common interface to run schemes...
2020-08-08T19:53:51Z arew: thing like scheme repl, scheme run, scheme compile...
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2020-08-08T19:55:05Z aeth: wasamasa: but, anyway, it should be easier for Chicken to solve than Quicklisp because Chicken only has to run on Chicken and can just bundle HTTPS. Quicklisp advertises support for 11 implementations, and some of them are basically abandonware like SCL and even CLISP.
2020-08-08T19:55:18Z wasamasa: well, yes, but it's the portable scheme
2020-08-08T19:55:29Z wasamasa: requiring openssl or so makes life harder
2020-08-08T19:55:52Z wasamasa: I can only imagine that to work if you go and bundle bearssl or so
2020-08-08T19:58:48Z aeth: Yes, but that is a solution.
2020-08-08T20:01:32Z aeth: wasamasa: As far as package management goes, I'm probably just going to find a way to repurpose Quicklisp as Quickscheme. Then I can find a way to call it Rich Quickscheme (and tell people to get Rich Quickscheme), or perhaps make a git-enriched version called Git-Rich Quickscheme
2020-08-08T20:02:03Z aeth: I just need the right opportunity to make the perfect version of the pun
2020-08-08T20:05:14Z aeth: All of civilization has been building up to that moment, clearly.
2020-08-08T20:05:24Z arew: x)
2020-08-08T20:07:40Z zaifir: aeth: It's like the Alpha Centauri spaceship in Civ--the world acknowledges the superiority of your pun and You Win.
2020-08-08T20:08:04Z zaifir: Perhaps it's more of a cultural victory, though.
2020-08-08T20:08:12Z aeth: well, more like a cultural victory in the later Civs, yes
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2020-08-08T20:12:48Z aeth: I also should add an app store to Airship Scheme, of course. Is a 30% cut fair?
2020-08-08T20:18:50Z aeth: I'm not sure how it would charge without a cryptocurrency SRFI, though.
2020-08-08T20:31:49Z aeth: zaifir: Any good ideas for R7RS examples, by the way? Simple things that I can double as test programs, since I personally always treat examples as tests.
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2020-08-08T20:32:44Z aeth: At the moment I just have this, although I might change it a bit because I don't like how... inelegant it currently looks. Maybe the helper procedure belongs inside the public one, idk. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/194643dc0c3d6b59c41cc29495130022ea85522e/examples/hello-world.scm
2020-08-08T20:32:45Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/LpACxPPv6s
2020-08-08T20:33:53Z aeth: Annoyingly, anything in /examples is hardcoded not to count in the language breakdown in github-linguist, the Ruby package used by both Github and Gitlab to determine language usage percent. (I can see the point, it's about implementation language, but I don't think it excludes any test directories, so it just... imperfectly measures the breakdown then.)
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2020-08-08T20:34:33Z aeth: And, yes, I have Ruby installed just to have github-linguist installed just so I can try to figure out how it thinks because that language bar is important.
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2020-08-08T20:35:46Z zaifir: Maybe ecraven would have some suggestions for R7 tests.
2020-08-08T20:36:22Z aeth: zaifir: Yeah, but this isn't so much tests (like the chibi R7RS tests) as "working programs that people can read to see what idiomatic Scheme is"... but still run them and if they break, then the CI fails.
2020-08-08T20:36:45Z aeth: Sort of like the canonical factorial example in every Scheme book.
2020-08-08T20:37:09Z aeth: (Okay, sometimes it's Fibonacci, or both)
2020-08-08T20:37:40Z aeth: (The WikiBook has both)
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2020-08-08T20:41:19Z aeth: The best one is probably good-enough? from SICP, but if the code is the same CC license as the rest of the book (CC BY SA), then that would be a pain to include because CC isn't really designed for source code.
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2020-08-08T20:53:46Z aeth: wasamasa: is Snow the only package management for R7RS? I guess via https://github.com/sethalves/snow2-client or built-in
2020-08-08T20:53:51Z aeth: I might have to cons it to my list of things to do
2020-08-08T20:55:05Z wasamasa: the only one working for more than a single scheme implementation, yes
2020-08-08T20:55:20Z aeth: heh, snow2 uses my bilingual #| bash/Lisp trick. I wonder if they got it from that one time I posted it, iirc to #lisp for CL
2020-08-08T20:56:04Z aeth: or if it was independently discovered
2020-08-08T20:59:53Z aeth: hmm, 2014, I think I independently rediscovered it, then
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2020-08-08T22:00:10Z arew: fwiw it seems like chez works on alpine \cc zaifir
2020-08-08T22:01:00Z aeth: OK, these conversations in here and in ##lisp have resulted in https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/issues/20 and https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/issues/21
2020-08-08T22:01:06Z aeth: arew, zaifir, wasamasa: ^
2020-08-08T22:01:18Z aeth: For "Quickscheme" and Snow
2020-08-08T22:01:55Z aeth: I still need to add issues for SLIME, Geiser, and a large pile of SRFIs.
2020-08-08T22:03:51Z aeth: I guess I should also add an issue for the ecraven benchmarks
2020-08-08T22:05:26Z m455: this looks super cool!
2020-08-08T22:12:47Z zaifir: arew: Nice!
2020-08-08T22:13:35Z arew running chez test suite.
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2020-08-08T22:57:23Z aeth: m455: which?
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2020-08-08T23:10:29Z m455: airship-scheme lol
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2020-08-08T23:14:32Z aeth: ah, thanks
2020-08-08T23:15:01Z aeth: (chez on alpine is probably cool, too.)
2020-08-08T23:33:28Z zaifir: arew: Did you have any libc issues when building?
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2020-08-09T09:10:40Z arew: zaifir: no
2020-08-09T09:11:15Z arew: zaifir: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/pull/509
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2020-08-09T09:28:01Z arew: The most interesting SRFI at the moment should be SRFI-194
2020-08-09T09:39:57Z wasamasa: lol
2020-08-09T09:40:26Z wasamasa: did they fix the issues of the previous RNG SRFI?
2020-08-09T09:40:58Z wasamasa: like not giving you a way of doing cross-platform initialization for cryptographic purposes?
2020-08-09T09:44:41Z wasamasa: for example using /dev/urandom on linux, arc4random on bsd and some funny windows API
2020-08-09T09:45:20Z wasamasa: I guess not
2020-08-09T09:53:17Z arew: I was thinking about windows recently, It might too early to have a definitive answer, but maybe windows API will be no more and project will be able to support windows via WSL
2020-08-09T10:02:30Z arew: some one parked arew.xyz :'(
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2020-08-09T11:23:57Z jcowan: 194 is designed to run on top of anything 27-compatible; it's about generators for various uniform and non-uniform distributions
2020-08-09T11:24:43Z jcowan: i.e. it is about random numbers (booleans, characters, strings) rather than random bits.
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2020-08-09T14:17:28Z Riastradh: I added a primitive (get-entropy bv) to MIT Scheme which fills the 32-byte bytevector bv uniformly at random from the OS.  It is used inside the SRFI 27 implementation to pick a ChaCha key.
2020-08-09T14:17:55Z Riastradh: ew srfi-64 test-approximate
2020-08-09T14:18:22Z Riastradh: jcowan: Are SRFI tests supposed to have a nonzero false failure rate?
2020-08-09T14:21:12Z jcowan: In theory.  But in theory, theory and practice are the same, whereas in practice they are quite different.  If you know of a problem in a test, by all means report it to the appropriate srfi mailing list.
2020-08-09T14:30:15Z Riastradh: I'm not saying it's a problem!  Stochastic tests with a nonzero false positive rate -- necessary in order have reasonable statistical power to detect plausible bugs -- can just be surprising for someone who expects deterministic tests.
2020-08-09T14:31:14Z Riastradh: Just like one often separates cheap `unit tests' from expensive `integration tests', it is usually a good idea to separate stochastic tests into their own category too (and quantify the expected false alarm rate).
2020-08-09T14:34:28Z Riastradh: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-194/blob/master/srfi-194-test.scm has a number of stochastic tests of distributions, of this type, but no statement of what the false alarm rate is.
2020-08-09T14:37:31Z Riastradh: SRFI 194 should provide a way to sample floating-point numbers from [0,1] uniformly at random, which in practical terms (even for IEEE 754 binary32 `single-precision') is the same as sampling from (0,1] uniformly at random.
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2020-08-09T14:55:17Z jcowan: Since 194 depends on the interface of 27, there is no need to duplicate 27's procedures.
2020-08-09T14:56:08Z Riastradh: SRFI 27 doesn't provide this
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2020-08-09T15:15:48Z jcowan: True, for reasons given there.  However, ((make-random-real-generator 0.0 1.0)) will accomplish it.
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2020-08-09T15:17:59Z Riastradh: No, ((make-random-real-generator 0.0 1.0)) is guaranteed never to return 1.
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2020-08-09T16:16:00Z arew: does it return a big float :troll:
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2020-08-09T16:17:18Z arew: I looked around async io, it seems like the best thing for me would be to implement a callback-based layer ala libuv from nodejs and on top of that provide a cml-like interface
2020-08-09T16:17:52Z arew: the problem will libuv itself, is that it is not clear to me whether it is possible to interop it with call/cc without running libuv in another thread
2020-08-09T16:18:37Z arew: also, /dev/tty can be non-blocking.
2020-08-09T16:19:35Z arew: anyway, that means I need to rework my network layer.
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2020-08-09T17:09:27Z jcowan read that as "my network lawyer"
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2020-08-09T17:11:15Z jcowan: Riastradh: 194's make-random-real-generator says "Returns a generator that generates inexact real numbers uniformly. [...] The procedure returns reals between lower-bound and upper-bound, both inclusive."
2020-08-09T17:12:16Z jcowan: whereas the random-real proc of 27 says: "The next number 0 < x < 1 obtained from default-random-source."
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2020-08-09T17:23:45Z Riastradh: jcowan: Yes, what I'm saying is 0 < x < 1 is wrong and it should be 0 <= x <= 1 (with the note that Pr[x = 0] is so small you can safely treat it as 0 < x <= 1).
2020-08-09T17:24:19Z Riastradh: ah
2020-08-09T17:24:39Z Riastradh: Is ((make-random-real-generator 0.0 1.0)) supposed to be the same as ((random-source-make-reals)) or no?
2020-08-09T17:25:16Z jcowan: Not.  The first is inclusive, the second exclusive.  See above.
2020-08-09T17:25:28Z Riastradh: confused
2020-08-09T17:25:33Z Riastradh: SRFI 27 says exclusive of both.
2020-08-09T17:25:36Z Riastradh: What you just quoted says inclusive of both.
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2020-08-09T17:25:47Z Riastradh: Now you're saying inclusive for one and exclusive for the other?
2020-08-09T17:25:47Z Riastradh: oh
2020-08-09T17:25:56Z Riastradh: You are talking about the things in order, not the ends of the intervla.
2020-08-09T17:25:57Z Riastradh: interval
2020-08-09T17:26:01Z Riastradh: OK.
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2020-08-09T17:26:07Z Riastradh: So, in that case, the reference implementation is wrong.
2020-08-09T17:26:44Z Riastradh: But, I also suspect that naive implementations will get it wrong so that 0 as an outcome has nonnegligible probability when it should really have negligible probability so that you can safely assume the outcome is nonzero.
2020-08-09T17:30:05Z Riastradh: (Specifically: for binary32, Pr[x = 0] < 1/2^127, which even cryptographers treat as a negligible probability; and for binary64, Pr[x = 1] > 1/2^54, which is the probability of an event that happens in the Bitcoin network every quarter millisecond or so.)
2020-08-09T17:37:49Z jcowan: Yes, I meant the first expression and the second expression, not the lower and upper bounds.
2020-08-09T17:38:07Z jcowan: Which implementation is wrong, though?
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2020-08-09T17:47:43Z Riastradh: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-194/blob/master/srfi/194-impl.scm#L80
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2020-08-09T17:58:04Z Riastradh: I'm a little confused by the dynamic scoping here.  It applies to the calls to generator _constructors_, but not to the calls to the _generators_.
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2020-08-09T17:59:13Z Riastradh: (in the reference implementation, but this does not seem to be spelled out by the SRFI document)
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2020-08-09T18:09:13Z jcowan: It does say "Parameterizing does not affect the behavior of existing generators."
2020-08-09T18:09:51Z jcowan: So you can create generators with any source you want, but once created they encapsulate the value of the source at the time.
2020-08-09T18:10:35Z Riastradh: ah, I see, OK.
2020-08-09T18:11:17Z Riastradh: Saying `random' to mean `uniform' is confusing when all the non-uniform distributions actually name the distribution and don't say `random'.
2020-08-09T18:11:25Z jcowan: I reworded it to "Use parameterize to specify a dynamic scope in which a different SRFI 27 random source is used when creating the generators. The behavior of existing generators is not affected by changes to this parameter."
2020-08-09T18:11:43Z jcowan: s/the gen/new gen
2020-08-09T18:12:15Z jcowan: I'd say that random is the genus, and that uniform is the default species that we don't need to mention.
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2020-08-09T18:42:52Z mdhughes: The correct real RNG should be 0 <= n < 1, because that allows you to produce integer ranges 0..n-1, or an even distribution.
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2020-08-09T18:47:50Z Riastradh: Makes for an entertaining exercise but there is no point if you already have a uniform integer {0,1,2,...,n-1} sampler.
2020-08-09T18:49:02Z Riastradh: And, realistically, pretty much everything in the real world is built out of uniform bit samplers anyway; going from that to a uniform bounded integer sampler directly is a much more natural route than going via a uniform floating-point sampler.
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2020-08-09T18:50:21Z Riastradh: What's much more relevant is that floating-point numbers, by design, have much higher resolution near 0 than near 1.
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2020-08-09T18:51:22Z Riastradh: And the resolution is _so high_ near 0 that even in binary32, the distance from 0 halfway to the smallest positive floating-point number is less than 1/2^127.  That's the probability that a uniform random real in [0,1] gets rounded to 0.
2020-08-09T18:52:19Z Riastradh: Thus, for example, if you have a procedure random-unit that returns the floating-point number nearest a uniform random real in [0,1], it is safe to, e.g., compute (log (random-unit)).
2020-08-09T18:55:02Z Riastradh: But if you naively, say, divide a uniform random integer in {0,1,2,...,2^53-1} by 2^53, there's a nonnegligible chance you'll get zero -- but small enough that you probably won't exercise it in testing -- so you either have to add extra conditionals or leave a landmine for someone else to step on.
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2020-08-09T20:26:26Z arew: re from alpine linux :)
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2020-08-09T22:15:05Z egigs: What's the difference between letrec and letrec* ?
2020-08-09T22:15:30Z egigs: the language in r6rs confuses me
2020-08-09T22:16:12Z egigs: "In a letrec or letrec* expression, all the bindings
2020-08-09T22:16:12Z egigs: are in effect while their initial values are being computed,
2020-08-09T22:16:12Z egigs: thus allowing mutually recursive definitions. In a letrec
2020-08-09T22:16:12Z egigs: expression, the initial values are computed before being as-
2020-08-09T22:16:13Z egigs: signed to the variables;
2020-08-09T22:16:17Z egigs: "
2020-08-09T22:16:26Z aeth: Assuming it's the same in r7rs-small, have you tried reading r7rs.pdf to see if it explains it differently?
2020-08-09T22:16:27Z egigs: That reads as a contradiction to me
2020-08-09T22:18:41Z aeth: egigs: My guess is that the distinction is that letrec behaves like let for non-procedures and letrec* behaves like let* for non-procedures, but there's a special case for procedure bindings to allow for mutual recursion?
2020-08-09T22:18:49Z aeth: I'd have to set up some REPL test cases to see, though.
2020-08-09T22:20:11Z Riastradh: egigs: It's the difference between (let ((x 0) (y 0)) (let ((t E0) (u E1)) (set! x t) (set! y u)) ...) and (let ((x 0) (y 0)) (set! x E0) (set! y E1) ...).  With letrec, all of the right-hand expressions are evaluated before any of the left-hand variables are initialized; with letrec*, evaluation and initialization happen for each of the clauses in sequence.
2020-08-09T22:21:44Z egigs: i've not yet fully parsed Riastradh's explanation, but my reading of r7rs seems to indicate letrec and letrec* are equivelent since the paragraph explaining the various lets only refers to them jointly and so no semantic distinction can be made at least by that paragraph
2020-08-09T22:22:29Z egigs: It's the first paragraph of 4.2.2. Binding constructs
2020-08-09T22:24:00Z Riastradh: The opening paragraph of 4.2.2 does not describe the full semantics.  It is just giving a summary of some important differences bewteen the various kinds of binding constructs.
2020-08-09T22:24:21Z egigs: okay
2020-08-09T22:24:21Z Riastradh: Compare the `Semantics:' paragraph under `letrec' and under `letrec*'.
2020-08-09T22:24:57Z Riastradh: letrec: `The <variable>s are bound to fresh locations holding unspecified values [i.e., (let ((x 0) (y 0)) ...); here 0 is an arbitrary placeholder],
2020-08-09T22:25:14Z Riastradh: `the <init>s are evaluated in the resulting environment (in some unspecified order) [i.e., (let ((t E0) (u E1)) ...)],
2020-08-09T22:25:32Z Riastradh: `each <variable> is assigned to the result of the corresponding <init> [i.e., (set! x t) (set! y u)],
2020-08-09T22:25:45Z Riastradh: `the <body> is evaluated in the resulting environment, and the values of the last expression in <body> are returned.'
2020-08-09T22:26:00Z Riastradh: letrec*: `The <variable>s are bound to fresh locations [i.e., (let ((x 0) (y 0)) ...), as in letrec],
2020-08-09T22:26:18Z Riastradh: `each <variable> is assigned in left-to-right order to the result of evaluating the corresponding <init> [i.e., (set! x E0) (set! y E1)],
2020-08-09T22:26:34Z Riastradh: `the <body> is evaluated in the resulting environment, and the values of the last expression in <body> are returned.'
2020-08-09T22:28:00Z autumn[m]: Are there two variations because not requiring an order allows some say, compiler optimizations that wouldn't be possible with letrec*?
2020-08-09T22:29:08Z autumn[m]: Or is there some... semantic use to having those two options that isn't immediately obvious (at least to me, I'm new and stupid.)
2020-08-09T22:30:15Z Riastradh: I dunno, it's basically a hysterical raisins sort of deal as far as I know.
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2020-08-09T22:35:59Z aeth: can you think of an example where letrec and letrec* with the same bindings produces different results?
2020-08-09T22:38:10Z Riastradh: (letrec ((x 0) (k (call-with-current-continuation values))) (set! x 1) (k (lambda () x)))
2020-08-09T22:38:32Z Riastradh: er
2020-08-09T22:38:39Z Riastradh: (k (lambda (k*) x))
2020-08-09T22:38:52Z Riastradh: err
2020-08-09T22:39:10Z egigs: (letrec ( (x 1) (y x) ) y) => error  but  (letrec* ( (x 1) (y x) ) y) => 1
2020-08-09T22:39:16Z Riastradh: moment
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2020-08-09T22:39:55Z Riastradh: (letrec ((x 0) (k (call-with-current-continuation values))) (if k (begin (set! x 1) (k #f)) x))
2020-08-09T22:40:17Z Riastradh: gives 0 with letrec, 1 with letrec*.
2020-08-09T22:41:23Z egigs: they're equivelent as long as you're only binding procedures
2020-08-09T22:41:30Z Riastradh: Correct.
2020-08-09T22:42:00Z egigs: i'm not sure it's even useful to bind anything but procedures with letrec
2020-08-09T22:42:17Z Riastradh: (letrec ((x (delay (cons 1 x)))) ...)
2020-08-09T22:42:54Z egigs: delay makes it kind-of a procedure
2020-08-09T22:43:32Z egigs: i think so anyway
2020-08-09T22:43:45Z Riastradh: Yes.  Generally you do need the reference to be enclosed within a procedure that is not called until after the letrec bindings are evaluated.
2020-08-09T22:44:00Z Riastradh: But the values of the expressions themselves need not be procedures.
2020-08-09T22:44:06Z Riastradh: (letrec ((x (cons 1 (delay x)))) ...) works too
2020-08-09T22:48:52Z egigs: thanks
2020-08-09T23:00:44Z egigs: what's begin for?
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2020-08-09T23:00:56Z egigs: the language in the report makes it sound pointless
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2020-08-09T23:02:32Z zaifir: egigs: Many forms only take a single expression.
2020-08-09T23:02:50Z Riastradh: egigs: (if foo (begin (set! bar 5) 3))
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2020-08-09T23:03:24Z Riastradh: Could have been done with `let()' in that case, which turns out to have the same number of characters, but `begin' also works in macro expansions for splicing, e.g. if you want one macro to expand into many definitions.
2020-08-09T23:03:28Z zaifir: egigs: And most forms which can take multiple expressions wrap those multiple forms in begin (the "implicit begin" idiom).
2020-08-09T23:04:25Z egigs: expressions at the top level are evaluated in order without begin, right?
2020-08-09T23:04:56Z Riastradh: yes
2020-08-09T23:04:58Z egigs: as opposed to an unspecified order
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2020-08-09T23:17:51Z egigs: i'm looking at both r6rs and r7rs and they both give the same example (define gen-counter (lambda () (let ((n 0)) (lambda () (set! n (+ n 1)) n))))
2020-08-09T23:18:19Z egigs: Then they differ on the result of (let ((g (gen-counter))) (eqv? g g))
2020-08-09T23:18:36Z egigs: r6rs shows it as unspecified but r7rs shows it as #t
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2020-08-09T23:19:39Z egigs: is there an error in one of them or did r7rs make eqv? more specified?
2020-08-09T23:19:51Z Riastradh: dunno
2020-08-09T23:19:52Z Riastradh: jcowan?  ^
2020-08-09T23:22:30Z egigs: gambit, loko, and chez are all returning #t for me in agreement with r7rs
2020-08-09T23:23:54Z Riastradh: Some people prefer that procedures not be required to have identities of their own, e.g. so that a compiler can safely do copy propagation.
2020-08-09T23:24:34Z Riastradh: Some people prefer to be able to rely on the identity of a procedure with state, because obviously it has to have _some_ identity and it is sometimes convenient -- e.g., to hang properties on it with a hash table -- for the procedure itself to have that identity as reflected by eqv?.
2020-08-09T23:25:06Z Riastradh: The R6RS authors were more of a PL theory and compilers crowd.  I would _guess_ that that was an intentional decision by the R7RS authors but I don't know.
2020-08-09T23:27:06Z zaifir: egigs: R7 does specify eqv?'s behavior on numbers.
2020-08-09T23:27:24Z zaifir: egigs: Not sure how R6 handles it, I don't have time to dig it up ATM.
2020-08-09T23:28:15Z Riastradh: zaifir: The question is about eqv? on procedures, not on numbers.
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2020-08-09T23:30:11Z zaifir: Riastradh: Oops, I missed the nested lambda.
2020-08-09T23:30:48Z zaifir should probably just focus on cooking.
2020-08-09T23:31:31Z jcowan: It was intentional; eq? is allowed to return #f on "identical" procedures in R6RS, but in R[57]RS it is not.
2020-08-09T23:31:51Z egigs: jcowan: do you mean eqv?
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2020-08-09T23:32:11Z Riastradh: If eq? returns #t, eqv? must too.
2020-08-09T23:32:23Z jcowan: grrrr
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2020-08-09T23:38:21Z jcowan: I think I have it now.  There are three relationships between pairs of procedures: they can be behaviorally distinct, locationally distinct, and locationally indistinct.  A location in this sense is just a tag associated with the procedure when it is created by evaluating a lambda expression.
2020-08-09T23:39:32Z aeth: so when are we getting ~Perl 6~ Raku-style Unicode in Scheme? There's enough room for all of the equalities/equivalences. = ⁼ ₌ ≃ ≅ ≈ ≊ ≍ ≌ ≎ ≑ ≒ ≓ ≔ ≕ ≖ ≗ ≚ ≛ ≜ ≝ ≟ ≣
2020-08-09T23:39:43Z aeth: Probably more that don't match in my search.
2020-08-09T23:39:52Z jcowan: In R6RS, procedures are different if they are behaviorally distinct, and otherwise might be the same or different.  Eq? and eqv? are the same in this respect.
2020-08-09T23:41:26Z jcowan: In R5RS, procedures are the same or different if they are locationally indistinct or distinct.
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2020-08-09T23:44:32Z jcowan: But in R7RS, eq? and eqv? behave differently.  To eqv?, procedures are different if they are behaviorally distinct, and otherwise might be the same or different, as in R6RS.  But to eq?, procedures are different if they are behaviorally distinct, the same if they are locationally indistinct, and could be either if they are locationally distinct.
2020-08-09T23:44:39Z jcowan: I *think*.
2020-08-09T23:45:14Z aeth: how do you determine that two procedures will behave differently?
2020-08-09T23:47:42Z jcowan: Good question for which I don't have an answer.
2020-08-09T23:49:02Z jcowan: The advantage of R6 is that compilers can rewrite (foo car) as (foo (lambda (x) (%car x))), where %car is a primitive that can only appear in operator form, without having to worry that car and the lambda are locationally distinct.
2020-08-09T23:49:05Z Riastradh: aeth: Can't guarantee to determine it in general, but for some cases you can prove an affirmative or a negative.
2020-08-09T23:49:53Z jcowan: The advantage of R5RS is that procedures have identity, as Riastradh said; you can safely use them as keys.
2020-08-09T23:50:29Z jcowan: R7 attempts to split the difference by allowing eq? and eqv? to behave differently on procedures as well as the usual numbers and characters.
2020-08-09T23:53:20Z aeth: At the moment for eqv? I just use eq? for procedures because (eqv? (lambda (x) x) (lambda (x) x)) is unspecified.
2020-08-09T23:54:16Z aeth: I think chibi-scheme might do the same? (eqv? (lambda (x) x) (lambda (x) x)) => #f
2020-08-09T23:55:07Z jcowan: Yes, they are locationally distinct, so eqv? and eq? have the same behavior on Chibi (which is obvs conformant)
2020-08-09T23:57:06Z jcowan: The R6RS-specific behavior makes sense only in optimizing compilers that do the expansion I showed above, so that car can be inlined as an operator but is replaced by an (empty) closure when it is an operand.
2020-08-09T23:59:20Z egigs: my pdf of r6rs specifies standard functions div₀ and mod₀ but surely they intend div0 and mod0
2020-08-10T00:00:09Z egigs: it'd suprise me if unicode subscript characters are required
2020-08-10T00:00:51Z Riastradh: no you just need to write your Scheme in TeX
2020-08-10T00:00:56Z egigs: heh
2020-08-10T00:01:08Z egigs: r7rs seems to have dropped those
2020-08-10T00:01:17Z Riastradh: renamed, I think.
2020-08-10T00:01:32Z Riastradh: balanced-quotient and balanced-remainder, maybe?
2020-08-10T00:01:36Z jcowan: Pushed out to a SRFI.
2020-08-10T00:01:37Z Riastradh: I forget.
2020-08-10T00:01:42Z aeth: what are you talking about? that's just AltGr _ 0 like ₀
2020-08-10T00:01:47Z aeth: I can definitely type that if I need it
2020-08-10T00:02:01Z jcowan: The subscripted versions are the math operators, the non-subscripted versions are the names of the Scheme procedures.
2020-08-10T00:02:46Z aeth will now add procedure names with subscripts to Airship Scheme because it works on aeth's computer so it must work for everyone.
2020-08-10T00:03:11Z egigs: oh, i guess you're right jcowan
2020-08-10T00:03:49Z egigs: they introduce them as "mathematical operations" rather than scheme procedures
2020-08-10T00:03:49Z jcowan: SRFI 151 (part of R7-large) provides floor, ceiling, truncate, round, and balanced (subscript 0), all in div, mod, and div-and-mod form.
2020-08-10T00:04:24Z Riastradh: \usepackage{aethshipscheme} \catcode`\₀=11 \AtBeginLibrary{\expandafter\let\expandafter\div₀\csname div0\endcsname}
2020-08-10T00:05:09Z aeth: I should make it error if you don't have subscripts in a .scm or .sld file.
2020-08-10T00:05:22Z Riastradh: (vector-ref v ₀)
2020-08-10T00:05:43Z jcowan: the small language has only floor and truncate.
2020-08-10T00:07:25Z egigs: does r7rs(small/large) have the tower of meta levels?
2020-08-10T00:07:49Z Riastradh: like r^{\aleph_7}rs, r^{\beth_7}rs, &c.?
2020-08-10T00:08:01Z Riastradh very helpful
2020-08-10T00:09:09Z egigs: i mean the library import/export meta levels stuff that was a real slog to read through and i remain fuzzy on them
2020-08-10T00:10:00Z Riastradh: yes
2020-08-10T00:10:34Z Riastradh: The point is: Are you using this code at compile-time in the service of generating macro output, or will you be running this code at run-time?
2020-08-10T00:10:51Z Riastradh: To illustrate this, suppose you are writing a control program for the nuclear missile silos.
2020-08-10T00:11:19Z Riastradh: When you're writing a macro that generates a pile of Scheme code,
2020-08-10T00:11:26Z Riastradh: and you are building the thing on your development system,
2020-08-10T00:11:35Z egigs: akku package manager does some kind of re-jiggering to adapt r7rs libraries for r6rs use.  That's my understanding anyway. What incompatibility is it working around?
2020-08-10T00:11:36Z Riastradh: do you want to call (launch-the-missiles) when you compile the program,
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2020-08-10T00:11:56Z Riastradh: or do you want to _generate_ a call to (launch-the-missiles) when you compile the program, so that it can be executed later on when you run the program?
2020-08-10T00:12:58Z Riastradh: (This is a trick question, of course -- the only winning move is not to play!  BUT, for the purposes of this exercise, we will put ourselves into the deathwish mentality of a Cold War-style regime of mutually assured destruction.)
2020-08-10T00:13:52Z Riastradh: If, somehow, (launch-the-missiles) is part of the procedure to generate the code that your macro is supposed to expand to, well, then you import-for-syntax or however it is spelled (I forget the R6RS details).
2020-08-10T00:14:11Z Riastradh: But if you merely want to generate code that, when executed, will call (launch-the-missiles), then it's import, not import-for-syntax.
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2020-08-10T00:18:48Z aeth: What about remote procedure calls, though? Those should have their own import
2020-08-10T00:19:19Z Riastradh: ?
2020-08-10T00:20:20Z aeth: you have compile-time and you have run-time, but remote servers are on their own "time" in a sense.
2020-08-10T00:20:22Z egigs: The (for <import set> <import level> ...) form seems to be nixed
2020-08-10T00:20:36Z Riastradh: aeth: Why do you say that?  Why is it a different time?
2020-08-10T00:20:45Z Riastradh: Why does it make a difference whether you are importing a module that has
2020-08-10T00:20:52Z Riastradh: (define (foo x y) ...computation involving x and y...)
2020-08-10T00:20:52Z edgar-rft grabs his remote control
2020-08-10T00:20:55Z Riastradh: versus a module that has
2020-08-10T00:21:12Z egigs: that's the import-for-syntax thingy you couldn't remember?  (for <import set> expand)
2020-08-10T00:21:12Z Riastradh: (define (foo x y) (send-to-remote-server 'foo (marshal-inputs (list x y))))
2020-08-10T00:21:15Z aeth: Riastradh: because both compile-time and run-time are deterministic times, rather than async
2020-08-10T00:21:16Z Riastradh: egigs: yes
2020-08-10T00:22:13Z egigs: is there an alternate syntax for the same thing in r7rs?
2020-08-10T00:22:23Z Riastradh: egigs: yes but I forget how it's spelled
2020-08-10T00:23:31Z Riastradh: (not r7rs-small, which only has syntax-rules so it's a moot point)
2020-08-10T00:25:11Z Riastradh: Maybe it is spelled import-for-syntax.
2020-08-10T00:25:27Z Riastradh: jcowan would remember.
2020-08-10T00:26:47Z egigs: do srfis specify a rnrs they are extending or do they generally apply against any scheme standard?
2020-08-10T00:36:14Z aeth: neither
2020-08-10T00:36:40Z aeth: the early SRFIs are against R5RS, most but not all of the middle ones are against R6RS, and most of the new ones are R7RS-large candidates.
2020-08-10T00:38:02Z aeth: There are some R6RS stuff that says which SRFIs (at the time) work and which don't
2020-08-10T00:38:37Z Riastradh: egigs: It is... not as organized as that.
2020-08-10T00:46:11Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020-08-10T00:52:59Z egigs: what's the difference between integer? and integer-valued?
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2020-08-10T00:54:01Z egigs: what argument would they return different values for?
2020-08-10T01:01:54Z Riastradh: 3.+0.i
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2020-08-10T01:09:56Z egigs: you ever make use of all this exact/inexact stuff
2020-08-10T01:10:24Z egigs: i can't think of any other language that has it
2020-08-10T01:13:25Z Riastradh: Try evaluating  1 + 2  and  1 + 2.0  in Python and see what the difference is?
2020-08-10T01:14:13Z Riastradh: Most languages that have both integer and floating-point arithmetic, and allow the same operators to be applied to a mixture of inputs, have essentially the same `contagion' rules as Scheme does.
2020-08-10T01:14:21Z Riastradh: It's just not called `exact' vs `inexact' elsewhere.
2020-08-10T01:14:56Z Riastradh: And, in Scheme, the `exact' domain includes rational and complex (usually rectangular) numbers.
2020-08-10T01:18:24Z zaifir: egigs: If you find a language/computer with exact reals, let us know ASAP.
2020-08-10T01:18:51Z Riastradh: zaifir: C'mon, we have plenty of exact reals!
2020-08-10T01:19:06Z Riastradh: Like 1, 2, 4/7, 10000000000000000000000000000000000200000000000000, and -42.
2020-08-10T01:19:45Z egigs: haskell has exact reals https://hackage.haskell.org/package/numbers-3000.2.0.2/docs/Data-Number-CReal.html
2020-08-10T01:20:03Z zaifir: ... I'm trying to make a joke which is hard to phrase correctly without making it tedious.
2020-08-10T01:20:38Z Riastradh: But yes, there are lots of reals we can't do any interesting computation with.
2020-08-10T01:21:10Z zaifir: egigs: And of course computations with them may not terminate.
2020-08-10T01:22:04Z zaifir: egigs: I mean, the library specifically warns you that trying to evaluate one of its reals may run forever.
2020-08-10T01:22:34Z egigs: it says that for comparison operations
2020-08-10T01:23:02Z egigs: in practice "evaluating" usually involves getting some aproximate for display
2020-08-10T01:23:21Z egigs: so a lot of things terminate that you might not think would
2020-08-10T01:23:55Z zaifir: egigs: Sure.  And you could probably write a similar library for Scheme using streams or some other lazy structure.
2020-08-10T01:24:12Z Riastradh: (in practice, floating-point arithmetic is a good approximation and exact rationals or more exotic representations of a broader class of real numbers are mostly toys)
2020-08-10T01:24:41Z edgar-rft: in about 4 or 5 billion years earth will get vaporized by the dying sun, I don't think that evaluating reals will survive that
2020-08-10T01:25:31Z zaifir: egigs: In practice, virtually all programming languages just use inexact floating-point numbers and quietly don't call them inexact.
2020-08-10T01:26:08Z zaifir: "So I have this real--which is not a real, but a floating-point THING which is very dangerous..." --Sussman
2020-08-10T01:26:44Z Riastradh: It's the computations, not the numbers, that are dangerous!  Addition, for example -- real problematic (floating-point or otherwise).
2020-08-10T01:26:49Z egigs: well, i'm famliar with floating points and the relationship here, but I don't think its a perfect equivelence of concepts.  And most languages don't have this confusing plethora of predicates associated with exactness and don't seem to need them
2020-08-10T01:27:15Z zaifir: Riastradh: Yes.
2020-08-10T01:27:30Z Riastradh: egigs: Kahan's `much ado about nothing's sign bit' paper has some discussion of mixed-exactness complex numbers that might conceivably be useful.
2020-08-10T01:28:33Z zaifir: egigs: exact? and inexact? are a plethora?
2020-08-10T01:28:50Z egigs: integer-valued? and integer? also and various others
2020-08-10T01:28:51Z Riastradh: zaifir: I think egigs is referring to the *-valued? procedures in the R6RS.
2020-08-10T01:28:56Z zaifir: Ah.
2020-08-10T01:29:49Z zaifir: Oh yes, we have a plethora of piñatas, I mean, predicates.
2020-08-10T01:31:28Z egigs: integer-valued? sounds like a predicate on a function that would return #t if it returns an integer for all valid inputs
2020-08-10T01:31:41Z zaifir: Better to have a way to inspect the situation than for the language to silently convert inexacts to exacts.
2020-08-10T01:32:11Z egigs: well i'm used to static typing
2020-08-10T01:32:17Z egigs: haskell is pretty strict about conversions
2020-08-10T01:32:36Z egigs: it'd never do that silent conversion stuff
2020-08-10T01:33:02Z egigs: c does promotion in a pretty predictable way
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2020-08-10T01:33:18Z zaifir: I didn't mean Haskell.
2020-08-10T01:33:27Z zaifir: In general.
2020-08-10T01:33:37Z egigs: what's python do?
2020-08-10T01:34:12Z Riastradh: heh
2020-08-10T01:34:16Z Riastradh: 01:33 < egigs> c does promotion in a pretty predictable way
2020-08-10T01:34:36Z Riastradh: egigs: https://mumble.net/~campbell/2013/03/21/fun-with-c
2020-08-10T01:36:27Z bandali: Riastradh, out of curiosity, what web server is that? apache?
2020-08-10T01:36:34Z Riastradh: bandali: yes
2020-08-10T01:36:43Z Riastradh: egigs: I don't think Python has mixed-exactness rectangulars.
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2020-08-10T01:37:05Z toppo: is eopl "just" a scheme book
2020-08-10T01:37:09Z bandali: cool, thanks
2020-08-10T01:37:18Z toppo: as in exercises and implementations?
2020-08-10T01:37:32Z Riastradh: toppo: More like a book about interpreting and compiling programming languages, which happens to use Scheme.
2020-08-10T01:37:55Z Riastradh: I recall liking it when I read through some of it 10-15 years ago.
2020-08-10T01:38:15Z Riastradh: (also recall finding the first edition more interesting than the second edition, but my memory is hazy about why)
2020-08-10T01:38:33Z toppo: yeah I'm searching for books to buy now, so I figured getting some timeless stuff cause I'm limited on cash
2020-08-10T01:39:07Z toppo: not sure how I feel about books that are kinda "tied" to a single language, but it does look good
2020-08-10T01:39:28Z Riastradh: toppo: EoPL is definitely not tied to a single language; you could write the exercises in another language if you like.
2020-08-10T01:39:55Z Riastradh: egigs: Looks like Python doesn't have integer or rational complex numbers at all -- just floating-point.
2020-08-10T01:40:24Z zaifir: toppo: Bird & Wadler's Intro to Functional Programming and Michaelson's Functional Programming Through Lambda Calculus are both pretty language-independent, and they're great books.
2020-08-10T01:41:36Z jcowan: r7rs-small has only syntax-rules, so there is nothing like import-for-syntax, because there are no user-written procedures at compile time.
2020-08-10T01:43:04Z jcowan: I suspect that r7rs-large will use implicit phasing (each identifier is defined identically in all phases) as opposed to explicit phasing as in R6RS (each identifier is defined identically in all phases in which it is defined at all) or hyperexplicit phasing as in Racket (in which identifiers can be defined differently or not at all in every phase).
2020-08-10T01:43:30Z Riastradh: implicit phasing is a terrible mistake
2020-08-10T01:43:40Z jcowan: Phasing is a terrible mistake, but there it is.
2020-08-10T01:43:46Z jcowan is a syntax-rules bigot
2020-08-10T01:44:01Z toppo: zaifir, thanks
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2020-08-10T01:44:06Z Riastradh: So you're opting for the worst of both worlds -- phasing, but the worst kind?
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2020-08-10T01:44:30Z Riastradh: `oops I accidentally forgot to put a quotation mark around the call to ``launch-the-missiles'' '
2020-08-10T01:44:47Z jcowan: Not my fault people want low-level macros, but they do.  As you are fond of pointing out when on the other tack, syntax-rules is Turing-complete anyway.
2020-08-10T01:44:57Z egigs: why is phasing a mistake?  is it just because it is burdensom on newbies trying to understand the module system?
2020-08-10T01:45:20Z egigs: i certainly find it harder than just abou tany othe rlanguage module system i've encountered
2020-08-10T01:45:51Z bitmapper: < person who uses an implementation of define-macro in syntax-case
2020-08-10T01:46:03Z jcowan: Actually I think it's running arbitrary Scheme code at compile-time that's a mistake.
2020-08-10T01:46:17Z jcowan: Also, unhygienic macros are a mistake.
2020-08-10T01:46:29Z bitmapper: that's cool
2020-08-10T01:46:58Z bitmapper: i wouldn't use unhygenic macros in production code but like i love having them for tinkering
2020-08-10T01:47:44Z jcowan: R6RS is kind of the worst possible situation: you have to use explicit phasing declarations for portability, even though most systems totally ignore it.
2020-08-10T01:48:03Z egigs: anybody have some code that will generate graphvis module dependency graph given a bunch fo scheme files?
2020-08-10T01:48:42Z Riastradh: ...most systems are broken if they don't do phasing...
2020-08-10T01:48:45Z jcowan: When the easiest way to insert those declarations is to run under Larceny or something and use the error messages it spits out to insert phasing declarations.
2020-08-10T01:48:50Z Riastradh: Racket got this right aaaaaaaaaaages ago.
2020-08-10T01:49:08Z Riastradh: (Scheme48 got it close to right even more ages ago.)
2020-08-10T01:49:24Z jcowan: Except that Racket (and R6RS) can't cope with situations where the number of phases is not known in advance.
2020-08-10T01:49:32Z Riastradh: ???
2020-08-10T01:49:37Z egigs: does chez do phasing?
2020-08-10T01:49:45Z bitmapper: how does chez do anything
2020-08-10T01:49:48Z bitmapper: the eternal question
2020-08-10T01:50:01Z Riastradh: Under what circumstances do you have more than, say, two levels, and not know in advance how many levels there are?
2020-08-10T01:53:00Z egigs: the tower of phase levels reminds me of the tower of type universes in coq and considering how most compilers conflate type-level/term-level with compile-time/run-time, it makes me wonder
2020-08-10T01:53:22Z egigs: maybe dependent types are in scheme's distant future
2020-08-10T01:53:26Z Riastradh: heh
2020-08-10T01:55:23Z egigs: idris has a feel similar to dynamic-typed languages due to the way types are not merely compile-time.
2020-08-10T01:55:59Z egigs: dependent-types are just what you end up with when you add as much static analysis as possible to your dynaomically typed language
2020-08-10T01:56:02Z egigs: heh
2020-08-10T01:57:32Z egigs: so phases look like a mistake now, but that's only cause they've not yet been exploited to full power :P
2020-08-10T01:59:56Z jcowan: Riastradh: See Ghuloum and Dybvig ICFP '07 <https://legacy.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/implicit-phasing.pdf>.  The last example on p. 308 (PDF p. 6) demonstrates a macro that works (however contrived) with implicit phasing, but cannot be explicitly phased because it "expands to references to itself in as many phases deep as there are sub-expressions in its use site".
2020-08-10T02:00:03Z zaifir: toppo: As the books I mentioned are on the Web and are generally awesome, I'm just going to spam you with links: http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/books/gjm.lambook88.pdf https://usi-pl.github.io/lc/sp-2015/doc/Bird_Wadler.%20Introduction%20to%20Functional%20Programming.1ed.pdf
2020-08-10T02:00:24Z toppo: yeah sure, the more the better :)
2020-08-10T02:00:44Z Riastradh: jcowan: and this is useful how?
2020-08-10T02:00:51Z zaifir: Wow, I just realized they were published in the same year, '88.
2020-08-10T02:01:01Z Riastradh: If the system rejects this pathological abuse of macros that seems like a feature to me!
2020-08-10T02:01:30Z jcowan: And yet.
2020-08-10T02:01:34Z Riastradh: (that said, it would also be reasonable to consider limiting the world to two phases)
2020-08-10T02:01:51Z Riastradh: (phase 0, and phase 1=2=3=4=...)
2020-08-10T02:02:03Z jcowan: I think that's what Chicken does.
2020-08-10T02:02:05Z Riastradh: And yet what?
2020-08-10T02:02:26Z jcowan: Well, partisans of e-phasing often say that i-phasing is more limiting, but the exact reverse is true.
2020-08-10T02:02:48Z Riastradh: I dunno who says that but my point is that your program should be clear about what it's doing at compile-time vs run-time.
2020-08-10T02:02:48Z jcowan: I have never been able to grasp negative phase numbers, despite various explanations.
2020-08-10T02:03:12Z toppo: zaifir, for more background I'm interested in comp arch and compiler design. programming languages are linked more deeply than I thought
2020-08-10T02:03:35Z Riastradh: jcowan: Re negative phase numbers -- suppose you write a library of helper procedures to construct syntax objects, and the syntax objects they construct refer to names in other modules.
2020-08-10T02:03:43Z jcowan: Indeed.  Which is why I think what happens at compile time should be declaratively specified only.
2020-08-10T02:03:45Z Riastradh: Where do those names come from?
2020-08-10T02:03:57Z Riastradh: Or rather, what bindings do those names refer to?
2020-08-10T02:04:13Z Riastradh: If you have
2020-08-10T02:04:57Z zaifir: toppo: Have you looked at the Dragon Book?
2020-08-10T02:04:58Z jcowan: In the words of Mikhail Botvinnik on a chess problem: Through the ways of a miracle.
2020-08-10T02:04:59Z Riastradh: (module foo (export fnord) (begin (define fnord 123)))
2020-08-10T02:05:22Z Riastradh: (define bar (export assemble) (begin (define (assemble) (syntax (+ fnord 456)))))
2020-08-10T02:05:33Z toppo: zaifir, yeah I have read a precursor book to it and some dragon material they were really similar
2020-08-10T02:05:42Z Riastradh: (define baz ... (import-for-syntax bar) (begin (define-syntax macro (lambda (stx) ... (assemble) ...))))
2020-08-10T02:06:05Z toppo: I'm also considering the concrete mathematics book to upgrade my math
2020-08-10T02:06:10Z Riastradh: It's wrong for bar to merely (import foo), because it doesn't _use_ foo's export fnord -- it _constructs syntax objects_ that use foo's fnord.
2020-08-10T02:06:34Z Riastradh: It's wrong for bar to (import-for-syntax foo), because bar doesn't even define any macros, so (import-for-syntax foo) wouldn't do anything.
2020-08-10T02:06:50Z Riastradh: Had we defined `assemble' inside baz at the for-syntax level,
2020-08-10T02:07:15Z zaifir: toppo: Crenshaw's Let's Build A Compiler is a really fun read https://compilers.iecc.com/crenshaw/
2020-08-10T02:07:26Z Riastradh: (module baz ... (begin (define-syntax macro (let () (define (assemble) (syntax (+ fnord 456))) (lambda (stx) ... (assemble) ...]
2020-08-10T02:07:41Z Riastradh: then _in baz_, we would need (import foo), i.e. phase 0.
2020-08-10T02:07:58Z zaifir: toppo: Yeah, Concrete Mathematics looks excellent.
2020-08-10T02:08:40Z Riastradh: In order to pull the definition of `assemble' out into a separate module bar, so that importing bar at phase 1 in baz has the effect of importing foo at phase 0 in baz, we need bar to import foo at phase -1.
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2020-08-10T03:45:41Z egigs: what's the r6rs way to load s-expressions from a file?
2020-08-10T03:50:59Z Riastradh: (call-with-input-file "foo" read)?
2020-08-10T03:55:27Z egigs: i want something to read imports from scheme source files and generate a depencency graph in graphviz input format
2020-08-10T03:56:03Z egigs: it's hard to find anything scheme related because the word "scheme" just doesn't bind very strongly to a computer language
2020-08-10T03:57:20Z egigs: i'm tempted to write the utility in some other language
2020-08-10T03:57:23Z egigs: heh
2020-08-10T03:58:15Z egigs: does this thing not exist/
2020-08-10T03:58:38Z egigs: how do people get started in reading unfamliar scheme code?
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2020-08-10T05:05:32Z siraben: toppo: Concrete Mathematics is a good book, doesn't require much prerequisite knowledge since Knuth explains everything.
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2020-08-10T07:33:13Z rain1: Concrete Mathematics rules!
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2020-08-11T00:31:12Z tramplefoot: how does guile compare to other schemes in terms of performance? i've heard that the compiler does some gcc-level optimization, but how noticeable is it in a repl working environment?
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2020-08-11T00:37:35Z zaifir: tramplefoot: You may be interested in https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2020-08-11T00:37:55Z aeth: I was about to link to that.
2020-08-11T00:37:59Z zaifir: tramplefoot: It seems that Guile is generally on the lower end, performance-wise.
2020-08-11T00:38:04Z aeth: And the answer is, in those benchmarks, Guile doesn't compare very well
2020-08-11T00:38:58Z zaifir: Still very respectable.
2020-08-11T00:39:14Z zaifir: As always, it depends what you need.
2020-08-11T00:39:26Z zaifir: Depends on, even.
2020-08-11T00:39:29Z aeth: Well, there's two guiles, the older one is near the bottom and can't even run most of the tests. The newer one is still pretty weak, but better
2020-08-11T00:40:14Z aeth: It beats Chicken now
2020-08-11T00:41:26Z zaifir: Wow.
2020-08-11T00:42:03Z zaifir: I wonder if that's due to the CHICKEN 4 -> 5 change.
2020-08-11T00:43:59Z aeth: oh, it's not that the old Guile can't run the old tests, it's that only the top 9 are shown
2020-08-11T00:44:15Z aeth: So there's no way to really distinguish between one that can't run the old tests and one that's just really slow
2020-08-11T00:44:42Z aeth: e.g. Stalin is fast, but every single test fails to compile
2020-08-11T00:46:32Z aeth: it also, annoyingly, uses a font that isn't fixed width for the numbers so it doesn't form a grid
2020-08-11T00:47:28Z zaifir: Hah, Stalin forever makes the worse-is-better case.  Fantastic compiler, but incomprehensible--it is a rock, it is an island.
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2020-08-11T00:49:18Z tramplefoot: gambit seems perform better, but guile really doesn't get the shorter end of the stick - quite respectable performance imo
2020-08-11T00:49:30Z aeth: For a Scheme, yes
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2020-08-11T01:18:23Z jcowan: That top chart with 1-9 is really quite meaningless
2020-08-11T01:18:36Z jcowan: examining the individual benchmarks is much more useful
2020-08-11T01:21:29Z jcowan: Also, https://john.cs.olemiss.edu/~hcc/researchMethods/notes/localcopy/mytkowicz-wrong-data.pdf
2020-08-11T01:22:02Z jcowan: is very informative: you can get a 300% slowdown by adding a single variable to the environment that isn't used.
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2020-08-11T01:28:50Z aeth: Idk, I think I'll have a 🥇 in my README.md for every 1st place. in a benchmark....
2020-08-11T01:29:53Z aeth: U+1F947 for people who can't see that.
2020-08-11T01:35:04Z erkin: Was an SRFI for delimited continuations ever proposed?
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2020-08-11T01:43:58Z foof: wasamasa: what about the snow-fort website leads to lack of confidence?
2020-08-11T01:44:26Z aeth: foof: two things for me, (1) no https and (2) the font is huge and doesn't zoom
2020-08-11T01:44:54Z aeth: everything zooms *except* the font because the font seems to be based on screen width.
2020-08-11T01:44:58Z foof: https://snow-fort.org/ works for me
2020-08-11T01:45:02Z aeth: It's almost as if it was designed only for mobile
2020-08-11T01:45:14Z aeth: foof: On Firefox+Fedora, I get "Warning: Potential Security Risk Ahead"
2020-08-11T01:45:20Z foof: it was designed to work on either desktop or mobile
2020-08-11T01:45:31Z Riastradh: foof: Certificate issuer appears to be...you?
2020-08-11T01:45:39Z foof: yes
2020-08-11T01:45:46Z Riastradh: Are you a CA?
2020-08-11T01:46:01Z foof: why can't I be? :)
2020-08-11T01:46:22Z foof: why would you trust a CA over me?  you've never met them.
2020-08-11T01:46:23Z Riastradh: I mean, _I_ don't see any reason why you couldn't be, but there are some basic requirements like participation in the CA/Browser forum.
2020-08-11T01:46:44Z aeth: foof: well, I literally can't read it on my huge monitors, full sized unless I inspect element and replace "calc((.05em + 1vmin) + (.05em + 1vmax))" with something like, e.g. "12px", which is quite a dramatic size difference
2020-08-11T01:48:24Z aeth: Weirdly, the fonts in the table in http://snow-fort.org/pkg are normal, and best read with a maximized window
2020-08-11T01:49:53Z foof: the text is large but not freakishly so on my biggest monitor
2020-08-11T01:50:21Z foof: (admittedly I last tuned it before getting reading glasses)
2020-08-11T01:51:40Z aeth: They are exactly the same size for me in Chromium and Firefox... and the largest non-title font I've ever seen. But eww whatever font Chromium is using for http://snow-fort.org/pkg is horrible for me. Way too narrow, but also with no antialiasing, making it look like it's out of the 80s. Entirely Chromium's fault and not yours, though.
2020-08-11T01:52:53Z foof: font-family: "Lucida Grande", Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif;
2020-08-11T01:53:21Z foof: don't know where I copied that from.  I do most browsing in Firefox though.
2020-08-11T01:54:02Z aeth: foof: This is what I see: https://i.imgur.com/qv3k6S6.png
2020-08-11T01:54:32Z aeth: Chromium is the same on that page (totally different, and worse imo, on the table contents in the /pkg page)
2020-08-11T01:54:38Z foof: yeah, that's what I see, it was intentional :)
2020-08-11T01:55:16Z Riastradh: aeth: What's the issue with that screenshot?
2020-08-11T01:55:20Z aeth: On my 1080p phone, that's probably the right size, but on my 1080p 24" monitors, that's definitely not.
2020-08-11T01:55:45Z aeth: Typical font size is about the size of the " on that page :-)
2020-08-11T01:56:25Z aeth: But that's fine, I've seen that a few times before, and normally I can just zoom in to 140% or zoom out to 70% or whatever and Firefox remembers it next time I go to the site... but because of the way that font is calculated, everything zooms except the font size.
2020-08-11T01:57:02Z foof: I can try replacing the dynamic font size calculation with media selectors for mobile.
2020-08-11T01:57:31Z aeth: Anyway, at 30% or 190%, it's almost exactly the same webpage (after 190%, it goes to one column, same font size)
2020-08-11T01:57:33Z foof: I'm also open to suggestions on alternate font families.
2020-08-11T02:01:07Z aeth: Also, the link to the original Snow appears to be dead. It's just a blank page for me. http://snow.iro.umontreal.ca/
2020-08-11T02:02:00Z aeth: It appears to have happened fairly recently
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2020-08-11T02:03:08Z aeth: Maybe update the link to 2019-05-26, the last non blank version. https://web.archive.org/web/20190526022222/http://snow.iro.umontreal.ca:80/
2020-08-11T02:04:04Z aeth: hmm, that might not be a good link because Wayback Machine will take the most recent version of the page for the other links there, and the most recent will be blank on some of them. They really picked an unfortunate way to retire the site.
2020-08-11T02:04:47Z aeth: The April version here should have every tab. https://web.archive.org/web/20190404011409/http://snow.iro.umontreal.ca/?tab=Home
2020-08-11T02:05:19Z foof: here's a page that inspires confidence for me, maybe I'll copy this style: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/
2020-08-11T02:05:36Z aeth: foof: It needs a max width to work in widescreen on a desktop
2020-08-11T02:06:06Z aeth: literally just max-width, though
2020-08-11T02:06:41Z aeth: e.g. 650px
2020-08-11T02:07:38Z aeth: That means it will work like normal on smaller monitors and on windows where it's not maximized, but if there's a widescreen (or ultrawide! it can get worse!) where the browser is maximized, it won't be too wide
2020-08-11T02:08:02Z foof: yes, I know what max-width does
2020-08-11T02:11:23Z aeth: my only concern with having padding on the left/right is that it might make http://snow-fort.org/pkg less readable if applied to the wrong spot
2020-08-11T02:15:23Z Riastradh: Here is a web site that inspires confidence for me -- maybe you should copy this design: https://weatherishappening.com/
2020-08-11T02:18:30Z aeth: there's a bunch of sites like http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ that claim to be the right way to be minimal but they all do something I find really ugly... like the one I just linked to. I actually like #fff on #000 or #000 on #fff. I hate the new low contrast fad in web design, especially noticable ones like that site's #444 font color.
2020-08-11T02:18:59Z aeth: Low contrast fans are basically arguing "paper isn't high contrast so nothing should be"... but, I mean, why? High contrast is good.
2020-08-11T02:21:01Z Riastradh: Very high contrast (solid white on solid black or vice versa, for example) hurts my eyes and leaves artefacts in my vision that make reading harder.
2020-08-11T02:21:08Z foof: +1
2020-08-11T02:21:18Z aeth: Riastradh: it absolutely depends on your monitor, and if that's the case, you can adjust its settings
2020-08-11T02:21:53Z foof: he should adjust his monitor because you choose a high contrast design?
2020-08-11T02:23:24Z foof: aeth: that site uses google analytics :(
2020-08-11T02:24:00Z Riastradh: Set up a greasemonkey script to set up custom xrandr settings for every different web site I load?
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2020-08-11T02:28:19Z aeth: To be compliant to web accessibility guidelines, a website must have a contrast ratio of 4.5:1 except for large text, which must be at least 3:1. https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/contrast-minimum.html
2020-08-11T02:30:01Z aeth: According to http://www.msfw.com/Services/ContrastRatioCalculator #444 on #fff has a contrast ratio of 9.7:1 so it's (barely) fine according to web accessibility standards.
2020-08-11T02:30:27Z Riastradh: (also I like reading on paper)
2020-08-11T02:30:28Z aeth: (That site has 7:1 as its highest level, AAA)
2020-08-11T02:30:45Z aeth: Riastradh: I do like reading on paper, but well-printed books have higher contrast than cheaply-printed ones.
2020-08-11T02:30:58Z foof: it's a shame they're not advancing epaper tech much
2020-08-11T02:31:30Z aeth: I'm guessing there might be other factors in terms of readability, too, such as really narrow fonts, which might as well be lower contrast.
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2020-08-11T02:52:01Z foof: seriously though, there seems to be something fundamentally wrong with https if it depends on a central authority to issue certificates - especially since those certificates are public and anyone can use them
2020-08-11T02:52:13Z foof: I should just switch to gemini.
2020-08-11T02:52:40Z aeth: https://letsencrypt.org/
2020-08-11T02:53:14Z aeth: On the other hand, that just centralizes things even more by being free.
2020-08-11T02:56:48Z foof: any certificat I don't generate myself opens me up to man-in-the-middle attacks
2020-08-11T02:58:03Z Riastradh: foof: Yes -- it is stupid that browsers scream DANGER WILL ROBINSON when you're defending against passive eavesdroppers, but quietly proceed as if nothing were amiss when you don't.
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2020-08-11T02:59:19Z Riastradh: But, that is the world we live in at the moment.
2020-08-11T02:59:27Z aeth: worse yet, I bet no CA uses a Lisp
2020-08-11T02:59:43Z aeth: making it impossible to build your stack 100% on a Lisp
2020-08-11T02:59:54Z Riastradh: The security these days arises from extensive monitoring of issuance practices and stapled transparency logs (which Firefox apparently doesn't support yet).
2020-08-11T03:00:41Z Riastradh: So if a CA screws up, at least Google and Apple will notice very quickly and raise it on m.d.s.p and/or the CA/Browser forum.
2020-08-11T03:04:20Z foof: the world we live in is stupid :/
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2020-08-11T03:05:15Z aeth: The world we live in is based on the consensus of Google, Microsoft, Apple, and Mozilla.
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2020-08-11T03:07:28Z Riastradh: And, yes, I agree there are problems with the situation!  But you're tilting at windmills.
2020-08-11T03:08:04Z foof: What do you expect?  I'm a Schemer!
2020-08-11T03:08:32Z aeth: You can't do anything unless you have the budget to bundle your web browser with new hardware sales, like Microsoft, Apple, and even Google do. (Yes, Google often uses the Windows OEM crapware process to be the default browser instead of Edge.)
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2020-08-11T03:09:34Z aeth: Whoever controls the defaults controls the world.
2020-08-11T03:09:36Z autumn[m]: Don't forget chromebooks
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2020-08-11T03:28:02Z aeth: ChromeOS is actually nearly completely irrelevant. Linux is about 5-10x as popular, if that gives you any indication to how irrelevant it is. 0.4%.
2020-08-11T03:28:45Z aeth: I would not be surprised if Chrome is bundled 100x more in Windows than in Chromebooks
2020-08-11T03:29:56Z aeth: 0.52% here. https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/i1jn0v/linux_market_share_rises_from_361_june_to_475/
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2020-08-11T03:34:19Z aeth: (Maybe those stat sites aren't reliable, but these are the exact same sites that give Chrome its massive > 2/3 desktop marketshare.)
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2020-08-11T03:47:12Z zaifir: Clearly browsing of snow-fort should be gopher-only, with FTP for library-fetching.
2020-08-11T03:47:16Z zaifir: (Ha ha, only serious)
2020-08-11T03:48:11Z aeth: Should I add hyperlinks and style conventions to my .sxp file format when I specify it?
2020-08-11T03:49:10Z aeth: Then you could just use a hyperlinked "web" of .sxp documents over some existing internet protocol.
2020-08-11T03:49:40Z Riastradh: zaifir: So, have you met arcfide...
2020-08-11T03:50:30Z Riastradh: (I wonder where arcfide went?  Haven't heard from 'em in a while.)
2020-08-11T03:50:58Z zaifir: I've heard of them.
2020-08-11T03:51:36Z gwatt: Riastradh: he got deep into APL. He got his phd developing a concurrency extension to dyalog.
2020-08-11T03:51:38Z zaifir: I don't recall seeing them in the channel.
2020-08-11T03:51:52Z gwatt: Probably also being a dad is taking up some time
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2020-08-11T04:16:13Z lockywolf: ,help
2020-08-11T04:16:19Z lockywolf: rudybot, seen lockywolf
2020-08-11T04:16:20Z rudybot: lockywolf: lockywolf was seen in #scheme six seconds ago, saying ",help", and then lockywolf was seen in #scheme zero seconds ago, saying "rudybot, seen lockywolf"
2020-08-11T04:16:36Z lockywolf: rudybot, seen zbw
2020-08-11T04:16:36Z rudybot: lockywolf: I've never seen zbw before
2020-08-11T04:16:41Z lockywolf: rudybot, seen zwb
2020-08-11T04:16:41Z rudybot: lockywolf: zwb was seen joining in #emacs three years ago, and then zwb was seen quitting three years ago, saying "Ping timeout: 260 seconds"
2020-08-11T04:20:37Z gwatt: famous last words
2020-08-11T04:21:30Z aeth: rudybot, seen aeth
2020-08-11T04:21:30Z rudybot: aeth: aeth was seen in #scheme thirty-two minutes ago, saying "Then you could just use a hyperlinked "web" of .sxp documents over some existing internet protocol.", and then aeth was seen in #scheme zero seconds ago, saying "rudybot, seen aeth"
2020-08-11T04:21:43Z aeth: Zero seconds ago!
2020-08-11T04:23:08Z zaifir: rudybot: Your clock is a bit coarse.
2020-08-11T04:23:19Z rudybot: zaifir: phao, basically, EQ? is supposed to be at most as coarse-grained as EQV?.  In other words, if (eq? x y), then (eqv? x y).  It may disagree with EQV?, though, for objects that are not, to mere mortal Scheme programs, observably different, but are technically expedient to distinguish in implementation.
2020-08-11T04:23:51Z aeth: sounds like a jcowan quote
2020-08-11T04:25:45Z aeth: Hmm... Either that's older than my logs or in a channel I'm not in, like #emacs
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2020-08-11T06:59:15Z arew: o/
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2020-08-11T08:41:07Z wasamasa: foof: if I try to browse documentation of packages, I often get a 404
2020-08-11T08:41:27Z wasamasa: foof: and if I try to look at their description by clicking the link to the name, it gives me a tarball
2020-08-11T08:42:08Z wasamasa: foof: the font size thing seems to be fixed now though
2020-08-11T08:43:07Z wasamasa: foof: to elaborate, coming from other project and library hosting pages I expect browsing to give me more metadata and an easy way of gauging library quality
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2020-08-11T08:47:07Z amirouche: for most people library quality it necessary and sufficent to have a few stars... I do not agree with that behavior, but that is the SOTA.
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2020-08-11T09:16:28Z wasamasa: anyway, I should look into this deeper
2020-08-11T09:16:44Z wasamasa: the 404 is probably from unconditionally creating a documentation link even when the author didn't include any
2020-08-11T09:17:00Z wasamasa: the tarball thing could be cleared up by making a download link instead
2020-08-11T09:19:13Z wasamasa: one font size oddity I've noticed now is that at full screen size (a meager 1366x768, the right block on http://snow-fort.org/doc/spec/ is pushed beyond the viewport
2020-08-11T09:19:20Z wasamasa: but if I open devtools, that changes
2020-08-11T09:19:26Z wasamasa: so some CSS screwup probably
2020-08-11T09:20:15Z wasamasa: it's the font-size calc expression
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2020-08-11T12:24:55Z jcowan: Chrome now won't let me access https://snow-fort.org at all
2020-08-11T12:25:05Z jcowan: "You cannot visit snow-fort.org right now because the website sent scrambled credentials that Google Chrome cannot process. Network errors and attacks are usually temporary, so this page will probably work later."
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2020-08-11T12:36:27Z ecraven: jcowan: seems to be a self-signed cert, according to firefox
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2020-08-11T13:46:52Z fizzie: (A self-signed cert that doesn't include the domain name in CN or in subjectAltName, that's just wrong.)
2020-08-11T13:53:47Z jcowan: Right.  But until recently I could go through a little dance and override the protections.  Now I cannot.  That is just worng.
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2020-08-11T14:09:30Z fizzie: I've still got the usual "[Advanced] -> Proceed (unsafe)" escape hatch, but this isn't a very bleeding-edge Chrome (84.0.4147.105).
2020-08-11T14:11:18Z amirouche: I read somewhere that openbsd still rely on ftp to serve binaries / source and then only verify the hash / signature.
2020-08-11T14:11:23Z amirouche: some maybe drop https.
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2020-08-11T14:17:15Z fizzie: Debian's apt *supports* HTTPS now, but only as of relatively recently, and it's mostly still used over HTTP. It's got its own layer of integrity protection / signatures, after all.
2020-08-11T14:22:52Z zaifir: amirouche: Correct.
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2020-08-11T14:39:20Z amirouche: the thing is https is also to protect the user, so that an eavesdropper does not know what secret sauce the user use ;)
2020-08-11T14:40:42Z zaifir: It all depends.  Most people still have to make DNS requests.
2020-08-11T14:41:22Z amirouche: yeah... a joke security, because even https, you know which domain you request..
2020-08-11T14:41:51Z amirouche: it is better than nothing.
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2020-08-11T14:46:00Z zaifir: HTTP/FTP + a good signing/verification system is acceptable to me for software packages.
2020-08-11T14:46:40Z zaifir: Oh yes, also, you have to trust HTTPS implementations, which are extremely hairy and often junk.
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2020-08-11T14:54:45Z nerdypepper: hiya, i have args like     1 2 3 '(4 5 6)    , i would like to do something like     f 1 (f 2 (f 3 ... (f 5 (f 6),      whats a good way to do this?
2020-08-11T14:56:24Z wasamasa: flatten, then apply each list item repeatedly with a fold function or so
2020-08-11T14:56:43Z wasamasa: or better, skip the flatten step by ensuring data is already in that form
2020-08-11T14:57:04Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Your formatting of the structure makes it hard to tell what it is.
2020-08-11T14:57:19Z zaifir: nerdypepper: (1 2 3 (4 5 6)) ?
2020-08-11T14:57:27Z nerdypepper: ah my bad, would you prefer a paste zaifir ?
2020-08-11T14:57:34Z nerdypepper: yeah that is what i have
2020-08-11T14:57:53Z zaifir: nerdypepper: So each element is either a number or a list of numbers?
2020-08-11T14:58:02Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Or does the nesting go deeper?
2020-08-11T14:58:11Z nerdypepper: zaifir: well, only the last one is a list, the rest are just numbers
2020-08-11T14:58:17Z nerdypepper: zaifir: no, its not nested any further
2020-08-11T14:58:36Z wasamasa: if the last one is a list, that sounds like a chance to use apply
2020-08-11T14:58:55Z zaifir: wasamasa: apply may blow up when used that way, of course.
2020-08-11T14:59:00Z wasamasa: as always
2020-08-11T14:59:34Z nerdypepper: oh whats wrong with apply? i was thinking of using apply and then a fold like wasamasa suggested
2020-08-11T15:00:25Z nerdypepper is still getting the hang of scheme :)
2020-08-11T15:00:31Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Most Schemes have (very large) limits on the length of argument lists.
2020-08-11T15:00:36Z amirouche: well that is not a scheme problem here
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2020-08-11T15:00:53Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Also, apply always conses up a new list, so that's some inefficiency.
2020-08-11T15:01:06Z amirouche: apply is for a single proc, not a composition of proc.
2020-08-11T15:01:47Z amirouche: (apply f 1 2 3 '(4 5 6)) => (f 1 2 3 4 5 6) unlike what you describe
2020-08-11T15:02:49Z zaifir: Right.
2020-08-11T15:03:02Z zaifir: I think wasamasa mean (apply f TAIL-LIST)
2020-08-11T15:03:10Z zaifir: As the base case for a fold.
2020-08-11T15:03:24Z nerdypepper: amirouche: right, but, i could use something like   (apply compose-f ...)    where compose-f does the thing i want, no?
2020-08-11T15:05:25Z nerdypepper: yeah, that seems to work for now, ill dig into performance and stuff when im a bit more comfortable with the language
2020-08-11T15:05:30Z nerdypepper: thanks guys!
2020-08-11T15:05:50Z amirouche: make it work then make it fast!
2020-08-11T15:06:27Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Why exactly is only the last argument of the list a list?  The recursion pattern seems wrong.
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2020-08-11T15:10:27Z nerdypepper: zaifir: huh good point, not sure if i can simplify my program to explain it, but the first n come from doing some list operations, and i just want to jam the elements that arent consumed at the end
2020-08-11T15:10:34Z nerdypepper: (hope that makes sense)
2020-08-11T15:12:07Z zaifir: nerdypepper: OK.  If you can find a cleaner way to structure the data, the code for manipulating the structure will probably become a lot simpler.
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2020-08-11T15:13:25Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Can you paste the relevant section of your program?
2020-08-11T15:13:50Z arew: zaifir: I installed alpine linux :-)
2020-08-11T15:13:57Z zaifir: arew: Nice!
2020-08-11T15:14:10Z arew: works great, much speed, less cruft, boot in no time.
2020-08-11T15:14:22Z zaifir: arew: Yeah, it's pretty clean.
2020-08-11T15:14:45Z zaifir: arew: Hint: apk fetch -f coffee
2020-08-11T15:14:51Z arew: and I still have stylish minimalism with transparent terminal + padding which looks gorgeous
2020-08-11T15:28:19Z nerdypepper: zaifir: ah i would, but im going to bed, im done for the day ;(
2020-08-11T15:28:35Z nerdypepper: ill think about this though, making things easier at the top level
2020-08-11T15:28:37Z nerdypepper: thanks!
2020-08-11T15:29:20Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Sounds good.  Have a goood night.
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2020-08-11T15:31:45Z nerdypepper: zaifir: oh well, ill stay up for a bit more: https://u.peppe.rs/zU.txt
2020-08-11T15:32:01Z nerdypepper: im trying to write the implementation for merge, which merges two streams
2020-08-11T15:32:33Z zaifir: Aha.
2020-08-11T15:32:34Z zaifir looks.
2020-08-11T15:33:08Z nerdypepper: i wouldve removed the irrelevant parts, just a little tired haha
2020-08-11T15:33:25Z nerdypepper: the useful stuff is towards the end
2020-08-11T15:35:04Z zaifir: nerdypepper: It seems merge merges any number of streams.
2020-08-11T15:35:34Z nerdypepper: right, sorry, i meant any number
2020-08-11T15:38:33Z zaifir: nerdypepper: It may be easier to write the two-stream version first, since you can build the n-stream version on top of that, I think.
2020-08-11T15:39:08Z nerdypepper: i see what you mean zaifir, i should probably do that first
2020-08-11T15:39:36Z nerdypepper: (this is an exercise from sicp, i thought i'd be smart and write a variadic version right off the bat haha)
2020-08-11T15:40:46Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Yes, I remember doing it, though I've forgotten my answer. :)
2020-08-11T15:41:00Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Yeah, the book just gives you the two-stream merge.
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2020-08-11T15:42:41Z nerdypepper: zaifir: aha, i suppose i can expect most of this channel to have solved sicp :)
2020-08-11T15:42:42Z zaifir: Conceptually, the list version is just (flatten (nzip xss))
2020-08-11T15:42:44Z arew: ip
2020-08-11T15:42:56Z arew: sorry
2020-08-11T15:43:04Z zaifir: Where nzip is the n-list version of zip.
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2020-08-11T15:43:28Z zaifir: And flatten is just concatenate.
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2020-08-11T15:44:02Z zaifir: So if you write stream-nzip, it's easy.
2020-08-11T15:45:13Z zaifir: (stream-nzip {1 . restA} {2 . restB} {3 . restC}) ; => {1 2 3 . (stream-nzip restA restB restC)}
2020-08-11T15:45:20Z zaifir: Using {} for streams.
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2020-08-11T15:46:06Z zaifir: Oops, I mean {{1 2 3} . (stream-nzip restA restB restC)}
2020-08-11T15:46:26Z zaifir: It's a stream of streams, of course.
2020-08-11T15:46:40Z zaifir: A "tableaux", in Sussman & Abelson terminology.
2020-08-11T15:48:10Z nerdypepper: zaifir: right, and then write a flatten for stream as well?
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2020-08-11T15:48:50Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Right.
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2020-08-11T15:49:51Z nerdypepper: zaifir: gotcha
2020-08-11T15:52:14Z zaifir: On lists, a simple version of nzip is just (define (nzip xss) (if (any null? xss) '() (cons (map car xss) (nzip (cdr xss)))))
2020-08-11T15:56:19Z zaifir: Ah, s/(nzip (cdr xss))/(nzip (map cdr xss))/
2020-08-11T15:56:27Z zaifir: "Lateral" recursion.
2020-08-11T15:57:55Z nerdypepper: zaifir: right
2020-08-11T15:58:33Z nerdypepper: i suppose merge of two streams is sufficient for the exercise anyways, if you want more, you could just    (merge one (merge two (merge three four)))
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2020-08-11T15:59:11Z nerdypepper: so merge-n is probably better implemented using merge-2, instead of whatever i was doing haha
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2020-08-11T15:59:50Z zaifir: nerdypepper: Yes.
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2020-08-11T16:00:44Z zaifir: nerdypepper: It's often easiest to generalize a two-argument procedure to n-arguments.
2020-08-11T16:01:28Z zaifir: nerdypepper: The SICP stream-merge takes into account what happens when there are short streams, which is the hard part with n streams.
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2020-08-11T16:08:00Z nerdypepper: zaifir: right, yeah, thanks for all the help my dude, gnite o/
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2020-08-11T17:32:41Z Riastradh: aeth: Actually I suspect that was a me quote.  It sounds, to my ears, more like Riastradh-2010 than like jcowan-2010.
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2020-08-11T17:32:57Z jcowan agrees
2020-08-11T17:33:07Z jcowan: It's a sentiment I would express, but it's not my prose style.
2020-08-11T17:33:58Z jcowan: (This reminds me of the time in college I quoted a line by Northrop Frye to my English professor.  Unfortunately it wasn't by Frye at all.  It was by the professor in question, whose book I had read long before.)
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2020-08-11T17:44:12Z gnomon: Riastradh, 2011-01-04T23:30:00-05:00 to be precise
2020-08-11T17:45:55Z Riastradh: 2011-01-04 is still basically 2010; the year doesn't actually roll over until, when you're writing out dates, you remember to write the new year.
2020-08-11T17:46:19Z Riastradh: (I'm still stuck in 2019 half the time, myself.)
2020-08-11T17:46:42Z jcowan: I haven't had much problem this year, but I do in other years.
2020-08-11T17:47:18Z Riastradh: (I take this to mean my body is in denial about most of 2020 so far.)
2020-08-11T17:48:54Z gnomon: ^ that's a fair and reasonable reaction
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2020-08-11T18:43:45Z aeth: jcowan: Correct, I did a bunch of greps and you never capitalize identifiers like EQV? in prose in the CL style. At least, not recently. My bad.
2020-08-11T18:44:10Z jcowan: That is also MIT Scheme(r) style.  I do it only on #lisp and such places.
2020-08-11T18:44:21Z aeth: gnomon: Yeah, I joined the Lisp channels in 2012. My first lines in #lisp were pretty cringe because I came there from pg's essays.
2020-08-11T18:44:34Z aeth: Along the lines of "Is Lisp really the best language ever? Prove it!"
2020-08-11T18:44:50Z aeth: #lisp still gets people saying things like that from time to time, but not as much as when pg was more relevant.
2020-08-11T18:46:13Z aeth: Literally: "I am told that Lisp is the best programming language.\nI want Lisp to prove it to me."
2020-08-11T18:46:31Z aeth: then right afterwards: < schmx> it won't
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2020-08-11T18:49:25Z aeth: That was January 2012 and then 2012-06-21 I joined #scheme asking "Is http://www.r6rs.org/ the best place to start when I'm trying to write a Scheme?" and then jcowan replied "If you want to write a Scheme, I'd go for R5RS or draft R7RS-small.  Implementing a full R6RS is a heavy-duty undertaking."
2020-08-11T18:49:41Z jcowan: Shows what I know.
2020-08-11T18:49:52Z gnomon: Correct then, correct now!
2020-08-11T18:50:19Z aeth: At the time I was still 50/50 between my #wesnoth name (that only made sense as a joke of the name gen in Wesnoth) "Aethaeryn" and my Minecraft (heh, back when it was first come first serve account names instead of email-based) name "Aeth". I joined as `\ though, a name which someone sniped from me because I didn't use it often enough.
2020-08-11T18:50:25Z aeth: I got `\ from reading the IRC RFC.
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2020-08-11T18:53:51Z aeth: jcowan: To be fair, if I had listened to you in a way conforming to the Lisp/Scheme OR syntax, I would have tried R5RS first and only moved onto draft R7RS-small if R5RS was #f. And that probably would have held my attention longer than a then-moving target.
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2020-08-11T18:54:44Z aeth is now known as `\
2020-08-11T18:54:44Z jcowan: The main thing is that you are getting it done.
2020-08-11T18:54:56Z `\: Oh wow, I forgot, Freenode had at least one nick purge.
2020-08-11T18:55:28Z `\: I can get my "I-read-the-IRC-RFC" nick back.
2020-08-11T18:55:32Z arew: `\: hello and welcome.
2020-08-11T18:55:45Z arew: `\: what is your favorite reverse smiley ;)
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2020-08-11T18:56:20Z arew: I gues :/`
2020-08-11T18:56:28Z `\: heh
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2020-08-11T19:03:00Z arew: my first message was in 2015: is there any one who tried snltk ?
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2020-08-11T19:05:33Z aeth: jcowan: Ime, the hard part isn't getting it done, it's making lots of seemingly-trivial decisions that probably can't be easily changed after 1.0. The work put into the one-liner (defconstant %scheme-boolean:f '%scheme-boolean:f) probably adds up to several days.
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2020-08-11T19:05:55Z jcowan: Well, that is certainly part of getting it done.
2020-08-11T19:06:33Z aeth: Decisions like (1) it can't just be a keyword like :false because I might want to support keywords, (2) it probably should behave like nil and evaluate to itself, (3) CLs just compare to the symbol NIL, not to 0 or whatever, so there's no obvious penalty (there might be) for comparing to F
2020-08-11T19:07:37Z aeth: (4) it doesn't have to be |f| because I can just invert (non-Unicode) case in Scheme symbols and apparently maintain a situation where Scheme's lower case is CL's upper case for maximum apparent compatibility
2020-08-11T19:08:49Z aeth: And tangentially, (5) the syntax is incompatible enough so I can't just do things like make #t and #f reader macros and hope that I don't violate the spec
2020-08-11T19:09:27Z aeth: (although I still might want a #f reader macro in CL because %scheme-boolean:f is long)
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2020-08-11T23:17:14Z aeth: I gave up coding my Scheme reader last night when I somehow broke my imbalanced parentheses detection because I couldn't figure out how I broke it.
2020-08-11T23:17:49Z aeth: I still couldn't find it today.
2020-08-11T23:18:05Z aeth: The string I was trying to read had imbalanced parentheses.
2020-08-11T23:18:18Z bitmapper: aeth: where is the airship scheme source btw
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2020-08-11T23:20:31Z aeth: bitmapper: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme
2020-08-11T23:20:38Z aeth: It isn't much right now, though.
2020-08-11T23:27:00Z aeth: I almost have a reader that conforms with §7.1 as well as the closely related string->number. The first one is not quite equivalent to (read) because (read) reads one expresion, but (scheme-read) directly reads until EOF, which allows for e.g. easier tracking of line numbers in (eventual) errors.
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2020-08-11T23:28:24Z aeth: Then I need to fix the internal continuation passing style transformation, which, I mean, is really just a way to write one line a day because that stuff's really tricky.
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2020-08-11T23:32:21Z aeth: But once it reads and writes (most of) macroless R7RS, it'll at least hurt my brain a bit less than reading the Common Lisp forms.
2020-08-11T23:35:20Z aeth: I suspect progress will go pretty quickly once the core's written, up until the point where I want to start writing a lot of it in Scheme itself. Then, things will start to stall again because I'll want to take the LOOP macro with me.
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2020-08-12T02:24:08Z foof: wasamasa: documentation is supposed to be a hard requirement to upload snowballs, I'll check on that
2020-08-12T02:26:24Z foof: why does anyone want to access snow-fort.org with https anyway? o_O
2020-08-12T02:28:06Z Riastradh: Like it or not, https is the default today.
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2020-08-12T02:34:51Z foof: ok, switched to a letsencrypt cert
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2020-08-12T02:37:46Z Riastradh: yay
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2020-08-12T03:08:10Z aeth: foof: it's a hard requirement? I tried a few random ones that 404ed the other day
2020-08-12T03:08:27Z aeth: It seemed like 40% or so to me
2020-08-12T03:08:38Z aeth: I might have been unlucky, though
2020-08-12T03:08:48Z aeth: e.g. the first one on the list. http://snow-fort.org/s/gmail.com/brian.d.caine/bcaine/defstruct/0.0.1/index.html
2020-08-12T03:29:19Z mdhughes: New cert is a big help, I can finally see snow-fort.
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2020-08-12T03:33:42Z aeth: more importantly, it's finally a fort
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2020-08-12T04:22:24Z miyuki1534: what implementation are you using?
2020-08-12T04:27:50Z aeth must resist the urge to mention an implementation that is not even usable or complete at the moment.
2020-08-12T04:28:31Z miyuki1534: lol
2020-08-12T04:28:33Z aeth: A lot of us are implementers
2020-08-12T04:28:37Z zaifir: miyuki1534: You'll find users of many different implementations here.
2020-08-12T04:28:38Z aeth: A huge, huge number of us.
2020-08-12T04:28:57Z zaifir: The most positive bignum.
2020-08-12T04:30:17Z zaifir: (https://www.jwz.org/blog/2008/03/most-positive-bignum/)
2020-08-12T04:30:19Z aeth: miyuki1534: The most popular in terms of users/libraries are Racket, Guile, and Chicken. (with the caveat that Racket's a bit Scheme and a bit not Scheme, which is why they're "Racket" and not "PLT Scheme" now)
2020-08-12T04:31:04Z aeth: This channel's a bit weird, though, and if you surveyed us, you might get a different top three because this channel is more willing to experiment with newer Schemes and write portable Scheme (most Schemers just stick to one implementation's ecosystem because the portable library ecosystem is tiny)
2020-08-12T04:34:32Z aeth: Complicating things, the fast Schemes (currently Chez and Gerbil?) aren't among the popular three.
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2020-08-12T04:38:25Z aeth: For completeness, I should also mention Chibi Scheme which was the first to implement R7RS-small (back when it was a draft!), thus giving it a lot of power over all of the current R7RS conventions not actually specified (which were probably copied at least half a dozen times).
2020-08-12T04:39:29Z aeth: A lot of R7RS stuff (the current standard for portable Scheme) was written for Chibi first.
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2020-08-12T11:31:42Z arew: hey
2020-08-12T11:32:53Z arew: I want to optimize my markov chain program, and I think it would be useful anyway, using a cursor-based (scheme mapping)
2020-08-12T11:33:33Z arew: afaik there is two alternatives to srfi-146 in the wild:
2020-08-12T11:33:41Z arew: https://github.com/ar-nelson/schemepunk/ b-tree
2020-08-12T11:33:51Z arew: gauche's tree-map
2020-08-12T11:34:20Z arew: none of which support cursors out-of-the-box
2020-08-12T11:34:28Z arew: do you know an implementation that support cursors?
2020-08-12T11:36:01Z arew: otherwise said, I would like to be able to query a range of keys inside srfi-146 aka. scheme mapping.
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2020-08-12T12:35:54Z jcowan: With call/cc you can convert between internal iteration like map and external iteration like generators.  SRFI 158 has some nice routines for doing that.
2020-08-12T12:36:20Z jcowan: so typical libraries provide internal iteration aka HOFs
2020-08-12T12:37:58Z jcowan: That way you just pull another value out of the generator when you want it.  Bingo, cursors.
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2020-08-12T13:17:36Z amirouche: #t
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2020-08-12T14:24:06Z nisstyre: aeth: I think Guile is probably my favourite pure scheme implementation because of how nice and well documented the C API is
2020-08-12T14:24:16Z nisstyre: you don't get that really with even Racket
2020-08-12T14:24:34Z nisstyre: even though Racket has way more features and libraries
2020-08-12T14:24:44Z nisstyre: (which is probably why it's less simple)
2020-08-12T14:26:56Z jcowan: Racket can be embedded but wasn't designed specifically for that purpose.
2020-08-12T14:27:24Z jcowan: Chibi also can be embedded nicely, although its C API is much simpler; there are more things you have to do by executing Scheme snippets.
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2020-08-12T15:23:01Z lockywolf: An important question. How is SICP pronounced?
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2020-08-12T15:24:46Z lockywolf: Seek-pea ?
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2020-08-12T15:29:40Z Riastradh: I usually say `sick-pea'.
2020-08-12T15:29:49Z Riastradh: (stress on first syllable)
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2020-08-12T15:56:49Z jcowan: Which can be interpreted variously as "Are you sick?" or "Is this a typo?".
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2020-08-12T16:39:01Z sm2n: ess-ei-cee-pee
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2020-08-12T16:50:10Z arew: S.I.C.P.
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2020-08-12T17:40:07Z aeth: nisstyre: Heh, I'm personally the opposite. When I see a well-documented C API taking up half of the documentation (idk if it's literally half for Guile, though), I know it's mostly a language about being embedded in C and that it might not have a large native-to-the-language ecosystem in favor of using the C FFI.
2020-08-12T17:40:34Z aeth: (Iirc, Guile has the fewest libraries of the big three, but it probably still has more than some obscure Scheme that isn't fully R5RS/R6RS/R7RS conforming.)
2020-08-12T17:41:41Z aeth: Interesting, they're using Guix for their packaging now... https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/libraries/
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2020-08-12T17:54:49Z jcowan: aeth: Well, that was the idea, to make essentially all standard types and procedures equally available from Scheme and from C.
2020-08-12T17:56:57Z aeth: Yes, and by using a general software distribution package manager (usually used for C/C++ software), that does sort of imply that those libraries are more likely to be wrapped C libraries than with most Lisps.
2020-08-12T17:57:57Z aeth: That might be what someone wants (and I suspect that someone could probably automate a few hundred wrapped C libraries for Guile and start really competing on library count), but I don't like wrapped C libraries because they tend to be fast, but awkward to use.
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2020-08-12T18:02:42Z wasamasa: I'm not sure that's the reason for guix
2020-08-12T18:03:03Z wasamasa: sure, you could assume that it's because it's easy to package, but looking at nyxt browser I'd rather think it's because it's hard to package
2020-08-12T18:03:27Z wasamasa: their guix thing contains a whole lisp image and foreign dependencies
2020-08-12T18:04:05Z aeth: wasamasa: Guix is a fork of Nix that uses the FSF's strict no-unfree-software guidelines that essentially no Linux distribution passes (even Debian and Fedora, the good ones here).
2020-08-12T18:04:29Z wasamasa: I'd really like to measure the worth of a language by how easy its libraries are to package by your prefered linux distro
2020-08-12T18:04:30Z aeth: wasamasa: Except it also embeds a full Scheme so it's... much higher effort than their usual no-unfree-software forks of things, like the distros that almost no one uses.
2020-08-12T18:04:48Z wasamasa: but then I'd have to exclude pretty much everything that's not boring
2020-08-12T18:06:26Z aeth: wasamasa: You generally don't want to use libraries packaged in your distro, even popular ones that are probably already there, like for Perl, Ruby, and Python. They're going to be at least 6 months stale, possibly years stale, and are for programs that come with your distro that depend on it.
2020-08-12T18:06:52Z wasamasa: so?
2020-08-12T18:06:54Z aeth: Pretty much every language that's not C or C++ recommends using its own package manager, either de facto or official.
2020-08-12T18:06:56Z wasamasa: not everything needs insane churn
2020-08-12T18:07:18Z aeth: I mean, this advice is general advice and even applies to e.g. Common Lisp, where the library you use might have been barely touched in a decade (or three)
2020-08-12T18:07:22Z wasamasa: dare to be boring
2020-08-12T18:07:45Z wasamasa: yes, exactly for CL I'd expect things not being bleeding edge to help
2020-08-12T18:07:47Z wasamasa: but nope
2020-08-12T18:08:32Z aeth: Ironically, a lot of the breakage in the CL implementations comes from accidentally not conforming to the standard for years/decades.
2020-08-12T18:08:40Z aeth: You know, the one, true, never-changing standard.
2020-08-12T18:08:58Z wasamasa: yes and that shows how much of an industry standard it is :P
2020-08-12T18:09:11Z wasamasa: well understood? not really
2020-08-12T18:09:53Z aeth: You can never test enough (unless you can encode all of your tests in the static type system, of course!).
2020-08-12T18:10:06Z aeth: There will always be some new test or user on some untested path that will discover some issue.
2020-08-12T18:10:34Z aeth: The thing I hate the most about implementing a programming langauge is that it's not simple. There's basically an unlimited amount of reasonable combinations that someone might want to do.
2020-08-12T18:10:45Z aeth: There's no way you can cover that in sufficient tests.
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2020-08-12T18:22:11Z arew: you can... wiht an infinite set of... monkeys.
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2020-08-12T18:29:48Z aeth: arew: Then that would take a lot of time to run, which raises another point...
2020-08-12T18:29:49Z aeth: arew: What if the universe is a simulation, but the simulation has no purpose other than running in someone's continuous integration suite running unit tests?
2020-08-12T18:30:12Z wasamasa: what if it's just endlessly fetching node_modules/
2020-08-12T18:30:13Z aeth: Why do we assume that our universe simulation is in production when most are probably not?
2020-08-12T18:31:08Z aeth: If you test on every push, you probably have more downloads from Github/Gitlab CI than from users. :-P
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2020-08-12T18:36:30Z arew: #t
2020-08-12T18:37:36Z aeth: oh, no, The Matrix is back online so we have to stop talking about simulated universes
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2020-08-12T18:38:07Z arew: noes
2020-08-12T18:38:25Z arew: I think I will implement t-trees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-tree
2020-08-12T18:38:44Z arew: to be honest and more accurate I will try to port this implementation https://code.google.com/archive/p/ttree/source/default/source
2020-08-12T18:38:58Z wasamasa: > Although T-trees seem to be widely used for main-memory databases, recent research indicates that they actually do not perform better than B-trees on modern hardware.[2][3]
2020-08-12T18:39:05Z arew: yeah
2020-08-12T18:39:09Z arew: I read that
2020-08-12T18:39:25Z wasamasa: doesn't seem more space-efficient either
2020-08-12T18:40:07Z arew: is it another case for "make it work, then make it fast" ?
2020-08-12T18:40:27Z wasamasa: no, I just don't see what problem it would solve, other than looking funny
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2020-08-12T18:42:47Z arew: I need an ordered mapping with range queries that is fast
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2020-08-12T18:50:06Z jcowan: Chibi is small and simple, but it has 110 feature options, which means to test it exhaustively you'd have to run each test 1298074214633706907132624082305024 times.
2020-08-12T18:50:21Z jcowan: No Work.
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2020-08-12T18:55:38Z Riastradh: arew: Range queries meaning what exactly?
2020-08-12T19:07:47Z arew: Riastradh: everything between two objects
2020-08-12T19:08:18Z arew: say you have [1, 4, 7, 10, 12, 42] everything that bigger than 3 but lower than 43
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2020-08-12T19:09:08Z Riastradh: Pretty much any ordered tree will do that, why T-trees and not, say, bounded-balance binary trees or red/black trees or AVL trees?
2020-08-12T19:10:10Z aeth: jcowan: And to truly exhaustively test a programming language, you'd also need to test it on each generation of hardware from each CPU maker... and they often turn off features in low-end CPUs so even that might not be enough.
2020-08-12T19:10:49Z aeth: This is also a problem that OSes face, which is one of the advantages that Apple has.
2020-08-12T19:11:17Z arew: Riastradh: because wikipedia told me it is a fast space efficient in-memory datastructure, I guess.
2020-08-12T19:11:31Z arew: but I willing to change my mind.
2020-08-12T19:12:27Z arew: but I am willing to change my mind.
2020-08-12T19:13:41Z Riastradh: arew: I suspect you'll find that drafting a quick one of the three I mentioned will be easier than T-trees or B-trees.  The only reason to use T-trees or B-trees is to make more efficient use of caches (whether CPU caches for main memory, or, more commonly, memory caches for slow disks) at the expense of more complicated logic.
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2020-08-12T19:19:32Z arew: Thanks for the feedback, I will into those :)
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2020-08-12T19:54:35Z aeth: I'm almost to the point where the giant mess of numerical syntax is all that's left. Almost. Of course, my reader's code quality is a mess, but it's more important to get it working first.
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2020-08-12T19:56:14Z aeth: I found some interesting potential mistakes in Chibi, like #u8 "hello" as well as #u8 ; hello\n() where \n is an actual newline, which IRC hates. Also, it doesn't look like R7RS-small intended for things like #i#e#i42
2020-08-12T19:56:32Z jcowan: Feh.
2020-08-12T19:57:08Z Riastradh: #e#i#e#i#o1dmacdonaldhadaf4rm
2020-08-12T19:57:10Z aeth: #u8 "hello" turns into #u8() in case you're wondering. For some reason. I figured it might do something odd because " is one of those things that ends a token and starts the new one without requiring whitespace before it.
2020-08-12T19:57:37Z aeth: At least with the version I have. I'm not sure when I last compiled it.
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2020-08-12T19:59:04Z jcowan: Looks like #u8 reads the next sexp, and if it isn't a list, returns an empty bytevector.  So #u8 "hello" and #u8 32 behave the same way.
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2020-08-12T20:00:14Z aeth: I support #u8 () and #u8     () etc. like in Chibi because I know everyone uses Emacs with paredit, and I know paredit by default (which I turn off) does this ridiculous thing where it adds spaces after unrecognized #foos before (s, even though it looks like in R7RS-small if I really wanted to be strict, bytevectors should start with literally just #u8(
2020-08-12T20:00:34Z aeth: Except maybe also #U8 because that might be one of those case-insensitive ones. I'll have to reread it carefully.
2020-08-12T20:01:20Z aeth: Maybe I should passive-aggressively do a style warning with instructions on how to disable that default behavior in paredit.
2020-08-12T20:01:51Z aeth: (setq paredit-space-for-delimiter-predicates '((lambda (endp delimiter) nil)))
2020-08-12T20:02:41Z aeth: Of course, I've set everything up so long ago, maybe that's changed.
2020-08-12T20:08:35Z aeth: I really need to get unit tests going so I can keep running all of the many, many reader edge cases.
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2020-08-12T20:27:20Z jcowan: There are only three points of case sensitivity in R7RS: identifiers, character names, and escape sequences like \n \r etc.  Everything else is case insensitive.
2020-08-12T20:27:54Z Riastradh: strings?
2020-08-12T20:28:53Z aeth: jcowan: 7.1 says #x1A and #X1a are equivalent
2020-08-12T20:29:09Z jcowan: Strings, yes, of course.
2020-08-12T20:29:43Z aeth: ah, case sensitivity, not insensitivity
2020-08-12T20:29:48Z jcowan: aeth: Right, because numbers are case-insensitive throughout, including #<letter> prefixes and hex digits
2020-08-12T20:30:29Z Riastradh: #\nEwLiNe
2020-08-12T20:30:52Z jcowan: #\lambda vs. #\Lambda.
2020-08-12T20:33:31Z Riastradh: What, not #\GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMBDA and #\GREEK CAPITAL LETTER LAMBDA?
2020-08-12T20:34:46Z aeth: how about this? #\|GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMBDA|
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2020-08-12T20:42:05Z jcowan: You certainly could (with the escapes), but typing all that gets old even with completion.
2020-08-12T20:43:49Z aeth: jcowan: One thing that was unclear in the standard is, when "f" can be used instead of "e" and that typically is just "f0", does that mean single-float inf is canonically printed as +inf.0f0 (and same for nan) when at the default where double-float is "normal"?
2020-08-12T20:44:41Z aeth: And then for reading, does that mean "e0", "d0", as well as, say, "d234324" can all be accepted at the end of an inf?
2020-08-12T20:45:52Z jcowan: #\|ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA INITIAL FORM|, for example
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2020-08-12T20:48:29Z jcowan: All of those are outside the R7RS syntax, where the only exponent marker is 'e'.
2020-08-12T20:53:02Z jcowan: Even in R6RS, which preserves all five exponent markers, those seem to be illegal.
2020-08-12T21:00:40Z Riastradh: d20 should be notation for a die roll, obviously.
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2020-08-12T21:00:52Z Riastradh: 3d6
2020-08-12T21:03:09Z aeth: jcowan: §7.1 doesn't include CL-style s/f/d/l but §6.2.5 permits it and describes how it might work for easy cases without resolving the hard inf and nan cases.
2020-08-12T21:03:28Z jcowan nods
2020-08-12T21:03:48Z aeth: However, without saying something like "+inf.0f0" you can't have a literal infinity without changing the read precision, which is permitted, but not specified, in §6.2.5.
2020-08-12T21:04:00Z aeth: s/literal infinity/literal single-float infinity/
2020-08-12T21:04:03Z jcowan: Riastradh: Thus undermining the notion that the value of a literal should be constant.  But are the dice rolled just once, or every time that expression is evaluated?
2020-08-12T21:05:18Z aeth: Riastradh: The correct way to do it would be #d20 but unfortunately, r7rs foolishly wastes "#d" syntax, but maybe we can fix this in the Yellow Docket of R7RS-large.
2020-08-12T21:05:54Z aeth: That is, #d6 should turn into a procedure call that returns 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 and similarly for #d20
2020-08-12T21:06:45Z aeth: jcowan: I just resolved your issue. It is constant... a constant procedure call. Perhaps it would be even better if it wasn't actually called and thus you'd have to (#d6) to roll a d6
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2020-08-12T21:07:35Z jcowan: No, there's a separate docket, the Lexical Syntax Docket, for that stuff.  The reason is so that people with monolithic readers only have to rewrite them once.
2020-08-12T21:08:43Z aeth: oh, so that's the Amber one then? I was wondering what the difference between "syntax" and "syntax" is at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ColorDockets.md
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2020-08-12T21:51:49Z jcowan: No, it's on its own page at https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/LexicalDocket.md
2020-08-12T21:53:17Z jcowan: The reason to split Amber from Yellow is to keep the ballot from getting too big.  The principle of assigning to one or the other is that at that time Amber entries already had SRFIs and Yellow ones did not.
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2020-08-12T22:05:10Z jcowan: Riastradh: Do you know where the plots are for the logistic functions?  You mentioned them some time back, and they should go in the SRFI.
2020-08-12T22:08:06Z Riastradh: jcowan: Like this?  https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/testing/mit-scheme-ref.pdf#page=84 (et seq)
2020-08-12T22:08:58Z jcowan: Yes.  Where can we get them as browsable graphics files (gif, jpeg, etc.)
2020-08-12T22:10:26Z Riastradh: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/doc/ref-manual/fig; see https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/doc/ref-manual/Makefile.in for how to build.
2020-08-12T22:10:31Z Riastradh: er
2020-08-12T22:10:40Z Riastradh: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/doc/make-common.in for how to build
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2020-08-12T22:26:00Z Riastradh: (eps2eps turns an eps source file like https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/doc/ref-manual/fig/cn-expm1.eps.in that executes runlibfile to pull in other files, into a self-contained eps file, which you can then embed in a TeX document or convert to PDF or whatever)
2020-08-12T22:29:59Z aeth: jcowan: thanks.
2020-08-12T22:30:01Z aeth: jcowan: SRFI 110 in R7RS-large confirmed!
2020-08-12T22:30:06Z aeth: /s
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2020-08-13T01:38:05Z lockywolf: So it is ass-eye-see-pee ?
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2020-08-13T07:24:33Z arew: I did not know well balanced trees were such a craft.
2020-08-13T07:24:41Z arew looking at slib wttree
2020-08-13T07:26:09Z arew: which is based on a mit/scheme library.
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2020-08-13T10:59:48Z arew: 200 nicks at the moment in the channel!
2020-08-13T11:00:14Z arew: if we reach 300 I release the search engine code!
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2020-08-13T11:14:41Z wasamasa: inb4 it's the schemewiki one
2020-08-13T11:20:59Z jcowan: And if we reach 500 nicks I release the source code to Windows 10!
2020-08-13T11:21:08Z jcowan: (Offer void where prohibited by law.)
2020-08-13T11:21:59Z ecraven: surely there is one country that does not prohibit this release by law!
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2020-08-13T11:47:26Z arew: meh
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2020-08-13T11:47:52Z arew: who would want to code of windows 10 except some pirates?
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2020-08-13T11:49:20Z arew: s/to/the/
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2020-08-13T11:59:59Z erkin: ecraven: Western Sahara, Angola, Mozambique, Somalia, Eritrea, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Papua New Guinea, Iraq, Iran, Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Marshall Islands, Maldives, Palau, Palestine, South Sudan, Uganda
2020-08-13T12:00:22Z ecraven: interesting list...
2020-08-13T12:00:23Z erkin: Plenty to choose from.
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2020-08-13T17:05:34Z montxero: \join #clim
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2020-08-13T17:10:43Z future-schemer3: hello :o)
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2020-08-13T20:10:11Z aeth: And if we reach 600 nicks in this channel, I'll finally finish Airship Scheme!
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2020-08-13T20:44:55Z erkin: If we reach 10 nicks, I'll have a pint of lager.
2020-08-13T20:45:03Z erkin: Oh wow, we're already there. Cheers!
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2020-08-13T23:16:25Z foof: erkin: don't forget to drink a pint for every 10 nicks
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2020-08-14T01:46:41Z lockywolf: afair, AVL-trees are not too hard to grasp
2020-08-14T01:46:56Z lockywolf: but that was some time ago, and my IQ has falled dramatically
2020-08-14T01:46:59Z lockywolf: *fallen
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2020-08-14T16:43:57Z arew: rejoice!
2020-08-14T16:44:05Z arew: it is the the week-end :)
2020-08-14T16:45:02Z arew: I told my friends to avoid going out that #scheme has a meeting tonight. So, let's pretend we have a conversation.
2020-08-14T16:45:21Z wasamasa: makes sense
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2020-08-14T16:51:30Z arew: totally! I almost never see them x)
2020-08-14T16:52:37Z wasamasa: partyparrot.gif
2020-08-14T16:54:00Z arew: In fact, I generous contributor told me a few weeks back an idea of a spin-off for one of my project... two weeks ago a startup contacted for the exact same purpose
2020-08-14T16:54:11Z arew: s/I/a/
2020-08-14T16:54:31Z arew: They already have some code that is supposed to work.
2020-08-14T16:54:41Z arew: eventually, they declined.
2020-08-14T16:54:52Z arew: BUT now I figured that it is a brillant idea.
2020-08-14T16:55:30Z wasamasa: ideas are one thing, execution another
2020-08-14T16:55:51Z arew: That is it!  I am too excited to do anything productive.
2020-08-14T16:56:38Z wasamasa: :D
2020-08-14T16:57:42Z arew: On another subject, I have an idea how to sell services around a search engine: offer the search engine as open-source thing, but sell index updates. What do you think?
2020-08-14T16:58:15Z gwatt: what are "index updates" ?
2020-08-14T16:58:41Z gwatt: oh, *you* have the data and no one else does?
2020-08-14T16:58:42Z arew: index like the result of the crawler, so that people do not have to run the crawler themselves
2020-08-14T16:59:02Z arew: no
2020-08-14T16:59:18Z arew: they download the index file, and it is merged with the existing data.
2020-08-14T16:59:47Z arew: it is somekind of "crawler as a service"
2020-08-14T17:00:02Z gwatt: idk, that sounds like it would be more complicated than your client running the crawler themselves
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2020-08-14T17:02:13Z arew: it can only work if we assume that it is complex to run the crawler
2020-08-14T17:02:47Z arew: and the crawler is private source
2020-08-14T17:04:06Z gwatt: Is the crawler the hard part of running a search engine?
2020-08-14T17:05:22Z duncanm: jcowan: hey hey - i've been following the mailing list for SRFI 170 cursorily
2020-08-14T17:05:39Z duncanm: jcowan: I started to implement an older draft using Kawa and the java built-in APIs
2020-08-14T17:05:51Z duncanm: I might have some time soon to get back to it, but I noticed that there's some deadline to the whole thing
2020-08-14T17:06:18Z duncanm: what do you think I should do / could do if I want to do more work in that area?
2020-08-14T17:06:37Z arew: gwatt: 1) the blocking bug in my current crawler is the fact that some webpages are poorly encoded (mixed encoding i guess) so it is doable but a pain, 2) there is also the problem that some websites do not allow you to crawl their pages (quora, twitter, stackoverflow...). 3) also keeping track of is crawled and what need updating is another pain point
2020-08-14T17:07:05Z Riastradh: arew: FYI, stackoverflow publishes data dumps to the Internet Archive so you don't need to crawl the web site.
2020-08-14T17:07:11Z duncanm: hey Riastradh
2020-08-14T17:07:17Z Riastradh: Hi duncanm!
2020-08-14T17:07:20Z arew: Riastradh: yeah, but those are not the latest and greatest ;)
2020-08-14T17:08:03Z arew: I agree SO is easy to index.
2020-08-14T17:08:32Z arew: I am really interested by this project especially since cliqz closed their doors :/
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2020-08-14T17:15:21Z Riastradh: jcowan: SRFI 170 seems to be missing a lot of f* functions -- fchdir, fchmod, fchown, fstat, fsync, ftruncate, futimens.
2020-08-14T17:16:25Z Riastradh: Also the remark under rename-file makes no sense and I suspect Prof. Shivers might've been having a jack'n'zac episode when he wrote it.
2020-08-14T17:16:42Z duncanm: hahaha
2020-08-14T17:17:35Z wasamasa: lol
2020-08-14T17:19:06Z wasamasa: it's a SSRI, so I'd expect that to light the mood if anything
2020-08-14T17:19:40Z Riastradh: jcowan: SRFI 170 also seems to be missing the *at functions: openat, linkat, symlinkat, renameat, fstatat (such is the unfortunate name POSIX chose for it), &c.
2020-08-14T17:20:30Z Riastradh: The open/* flags should include open/cloexec (or open/close-on-exec if you want to deneologize posix).
2020-08-14T17:21:51Z Riastradh: dup, dup2
2020-08-14T17:21:57Z Riastradh: (dup3)
2020-08-14T17:22:26Z Riastradh: fdopendir
2020-08-14T17:22:35Z Riastradh: dirfd
2020-08-14T17:23:15Z Riastradh: temp-file-prefix and create-temp-file are bad; they should use a randomly chosen name, long enough to be reliably unpredictable.
2020-08-14T17:23:54Z weinholt: Riastradh, fstat is there. file-info's signature uses fname/port, and if it's given a port then it uses fstat on the port's fd. there was a lot more fname/port in earlier drafts.
2020-08-14T17:25:03Z Riastradh: Oh, I see.
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2020-08-14T18:01:00Z jcowan: I should add the <directory>at functions to the out-of-scope list.
2020-08-14T18:01:28Z jcowan: Close-on-exec is omitted because it's in the domain of the higher-level process-control SRFI.
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2020-08-14T18:15:00Z Riastradh: Why out of scope?
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2020-08-14T18:27:37Z jcowan: Wnat are the use cases for openat other than being able to add entries to an unlinked directory?
2020-08-14T18:27:47Z jcowan: It has no security value whatsoever.
2020-08-14T18:29:41Z Riastradh: doesn't rely on the working directory
2020-08-14T18:30:00Z jcowan: A decent Unix pathname merge-er will avoid that problem.
2020-08-14T18:30:54Z jcowan: So yes, you can create a temp directory and unlink it and write your files into it with openat, but is that a realistic need of application programming (from the R7RS-large charter)?
2020-08-14T18:31:36Z jcowan: Also, I can find no guarantee that rename() is atomic w.r.t. creat(), only w.r.t unlink().
2020-08-14T18:32:10Z Riastradh: Pathname merging is not reliable.  Directories can be renamed.
2020-08-14T18:32:59Z Riastradh: (but no, you can't create a tepmorary directory and unlink it and then create anything in it; you'll get ENOENT)
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2020-08-14T18:52:55Z jcowan: Ah, thanks.  But is protecting against renaming directories actually something an application normally needs to do?
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2020-08-14T18:56:09Z Riastradh: Suppose, for example, you have snapshots of state stored at /path/to/YYYYMMDD, and a symlink at /path/to/current pointing at the current YYYYMMDD.
2020-08-14T18:56:43Z Riastradh: Someone might make a new snapshot while your application is running, and change what current points to.
2020-08-14T18:57:15Z Riastradh: To get at the current snapshot, and _stay_ on whatever the current snapshot was when you started, you can chdir to /path/to/current and then work relative to that -- but that doesn't work reliably if there are multiple threads involved, because the working directory is per-process, not per-thread.
2020-08-14T18:57:29Z Riastradh: The traditional standard approach to this was:
2020-08-14T18:57:35Z Riastradh: 1. fd = open("/path/to/current")
2020-08-14T18:57:50Z Riastradh: 2. whenever you want to work in the snapshot:
2020-08-14T18:57:55Z Riastradh:    (a) mutex_lock()
2020-08-14T18:57:58Z Riastradh:    (b) fchdir(fd)
2020-08-14T18:58:02Z Riastradh:    (c) do whatever
2020-08-14T18:58:05Z Riastradh:    (d) mutex_unlock()
2020-08-14T18:58:20Z Riastradh: But it's a lot nicer if you can just issue dowhateverat(fd, ...) instead.
2020-08-14T19:01:55Z Riastradh: (that's roughly what scsh does inside, in fact)
2020-08-14T19:02:38Z Riastradh: (well, that's roughly how scsh emulates a per-thread working directory, except if I recall correctly it didn't assume fchdir so it fails to deal with renames or symlinks changing)
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2020-08-14T20:25:17Z jcowan: IMO if you are in a Posix environment (possibly excepting Cygwin) and you expect your threads to have completely separate external state, you should be using processes anyway.
2020-08-14T20:31:37Z jcowan: duncanm: The deadline does not affect implementations: it's a deadline for commentary on the spec.
2020-08-14T20:31:53Z duncanm: okay
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2020-08-14T20:58:24Z Riastradh: jcowan: Even if you're not using multiple threads, it is easier to treat a subtree as a data structure you can have a handle on -- otherwise, you have to do a dance of  here = open("."); fchdir(there); ...stuff...; fchdir(here)  if you want to do a single operation relative to some other directory without affecting the working directory.
2020-08-14T20:58:31Z Riastradh: And of course that doesn't work with rename or link.
2020-08-14T21:04:27Z jcowan: That's why I was talking about merging: the handle can be a fd or it can be a string.  The fd may be quicker.
2020-08-14T21:04:49Z Riastradh: Not just quicker but reliable.
2020-08-14T21:08:44Z jcowan: I once wrote an FTP server that uses pathname merging to keep requests contained to the user's FTP directory.  Because of the use case, it would allow symbolic links to files but not to directories.
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2020-08-14T23:15:37Z jgart: https://github.com/paullucas/rsc3-chez/blob/master/rsc3.sls#L95
2020-08-14T23:15:50Z jgart: does anyone know where that message procedure comes from?
2020-08-14T23:16:01Z jgart: i can't seem to find it defined anywhere
2020-08-14T23:16:13Z jgart: is it part of some srfi?
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2020-08-14T23:48:23Z lisbeths: so uh
2020-08-14T23:48:32Z lisbeths: what if I want to use a c++ library to render some 3d objects
2020-08-14T23:49:44Z jgart: lisbeths, https://libfive.com/studio/
2020-08-14T23:50:35Z lisbeths: can I make half life 1 with that
2020-08-14T23:58:22Z jgart: lisbeths, you might be able to with this https://dthompson.us/projects/chickadee.html
2020-08-15T00:00:26Z lisbeths: I think what I need is to hook it up to GTK
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2020-08-15T07:43:56Z wasamasa: lisbeths: FFI steps depend very much on your implementation
2020-08-15T07:44:15Z wasamasa: lisbeths: for C++ you typically end up binding to a C wrapper, either provided by the library or written yourself
2020-08-15T07:44:37Z wasamasa: lisbeths: regarding graphics, the dumbest approach would be to just write to file/stdout
2020-08-15T07:44:59Z wasamasa: lisbeths: no need for pulling in gtk to view the results, lol
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2020-08-15T07:50:47Z wasamasa: lisbeths: but honestly, it's most likely more fun to understand the mathematics behind rendering and building your own scenes rather than trying to reuse an engine to make HL1
2020-08-15T07:54:08Z wasamasa: lisbeths: like this one: https://merveilles.town/@neauoire/104660492122332217
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2020-08-15T08:51:04Z mdhughes: As someone who makes a game in Scheme: Use SDL2 to get an OpenGL surface, and read controls.
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2020-08-15T08:52:16Z mdhughes: However, making anything on the scale of even an old Source game, let alone Unreal/Quake engines, is years of work by the best 3D graphics people.
2020-08-15T08:53:18Z mdhughes: Plus dozens of artists, level designers, audio engineers, voice actors & managers for them…
2020-08-15T08:53:51Z autumn[m]: Some people do handwrite their engines at least. (see: e.g., Devil Daggers)
2020-08-15T08:56:35Z mdhughes: That's a 2.5D raycasting engine, with a super-simple world.
2020-08-15T08:59:15Z mdhughes: And you can make something slightly nicer than that in OpenGL, might only take a year or two of work to have playable speed and environments that don't look like cardboard.
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2020-08-15T09:04:02Z wasamasa: I still have this dream of recreating that raycasting windows screensaver in emacs
2020-08-15T09:05:15Z wasamasa: cardboard or not
2020-08-15T09:05:23Z mdhughes: Well, your computer's probably 1000x faster than a 386, but elisp is 10,000x slower than C.
2020-08-15T09:06:12Z wasamasa: indeed and that's assuming that speed of calculating the wireframe is the problem
2020-08-15T09:06:19Z wasamasa: when it's actually creating the graphics that is
2020-08-15T09:06:57Z wasamasa: the fastest I've achieved so far was changing the background color of a text character, resulting in a low-resolution pixel grid
2020-08-15T09:07:27Z mdhughes: There's no wireframe. You have a box map, basically just characters in a grid. Then some integer x,y line code to scan out thru each column of the screen, and draw.
2020-08-15T09:07:36Z wasamasa: using image tiles or creating a svg/raster image creates too much garbage and is way slower
2020-08-15T09:07:59Z wasamasa: but maybe I can fake it somehow with svg?
2020-08-15T09:08:35Z mdhughes: Doing that in C is super fast, and it still had a hard time hitting 60fps. The graphics interface back then was IRC 0x10, pretty fast again if you had C.
2020-08-15T09:08:50Z wasamasa: is there a way to get a path instead of bruteforcing pixel intersections?
2020-08-15T09:08:52Z mdhughes: s/IRC/IRQ/
2020-08-15T09:09:25Z mdhughes: Sure, totally different rendering model, tho, and then you have occlusion to deal with, much slower.
2020-08-15T09:10:06Z wasamasa: meh
2020-08-15T09:10:14Z mdhughes: But most Schemes have some way to get either SDL2, OpenGL, or a similar raster API.
2020-08-15T09:11:22Z wasamasa: is there a name for that rendering model?
2020-08-15T09:11:39Z mdhughes: That's why I'm so frustrated by Racket. They have a raster API… and it's about 10x slower than I need.
2020-08-15T09:11:45Z mdhughes: So very close.
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2020-08-15T10:00:45Z aeth: What resolution are you targeting? That matters a lot. Don't CPU render 4k.
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2020-08-15T10:08:46Z mdhughes: https://gitlab.com/mdhughes/gridtest-racket/ currently opens a 736x736 window, which is pretty typical.
2020-08-15T10:09:07Z mdhughes: My Chez and Chicken on SDL2 versions are both far over 60fps.
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2020-08-15T15:07:17Z arew: nothing beats the perfect curve of latex font <3
2020-08-15T15:08:09Z arew: mdhughes: did you publish any game?
2020-08-15T15:39:08Z mdhughes: I haven't shipped yet.
2020-08-15T15:40:30Z jcowan: In general, it is never wise to try to use an FFI to talk to anything but C, because C has an ultra-stable ABI (well, one per processor architecture, technically).
2020-08-15T15:40:32Z mdhughes: In Scheme, that is. I've shipped dozens of games in other languages, including a little backlog of JS stuff I've been recently getting up on my demo site.
2020-08-15T15:41:22Z jcowan: If you want to use a library written in any other language, make sure there is a C binding to it already.
2020-08-15T15:42:29Z mdhughes: Java's stable, too. If you use a JVM Scheme, there's infinite libraries to access.
2020-08-15T15:47:56Z jcowan: Yes, I was going to add the JVM and the CLR as exceptions.
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2020-08-15T15:56:21Z mdhughes: Huh. I hadn't thought of it, but if you had a CLR API, you could run Unity with Scheme.
2020-08-15T15:57:06Z mdhughes: Unity still sucks enormously to work with, it's just infinite fiddly switches in a big object graph with some awful C# code. But it's there.
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2020-08-15T16:30:13Z jcowan: Also there is IronScheme, which has a CLR API with no particular effort.
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2020-08-15T17:00:02Z arew: I am clueless about C#.
2020-08-15T17:01:10Z wasamasa: it's basically microsoft java
2020-08-15T17:01:58Z wasamasa: way more features, funny documentation, so-so cross-platform story
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2020-08-16T08:01:33Z arew: mini framebuffer aka. minifb @ https://github.com/emoon/minifb
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2020-08-16T09:19:46Z mdhughes: Sweet. Just worked. And easy to FFI that, it's all raw types.
2020-08-16T09:28:38Z arew: :)
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2020-08-16T10:23:55Z arew: what is the point of port buffering? Is it a way to minimize the number of system calls?
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2020-08-16T19:17:28Z aeth: arew: Probably? You're writing or reading one character at a time, but you don't need to actually do that in the underlying low-level representation. And you can't actually do that with REPL-style I/O. Well. The "I" part at least. If the user types "foo" they type foo, you should have to process each character as they type the character.
2020-08-16T19:19:25Z aeth: arew: And for binary (byte) ports, there's a similar "this can't be done" for input since you might have to read a machine word at a time (probably 64 bits, so probably 8 octet bytes)
2020-08-16T19:19:40Z aeth: Although idk what the underlying syscall API actually looks like...
2020-08-16T19:20:14Z aeth: arew: There also might be conversions between character encoding, e.g. external space-efficient UTF-8 to internal consistently-sized UTF-32.
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2020-08-16T19:23:56Z aeth: s/you should have to/you shouldn't have to/
2020-08-16T19:25:52Z jcowan: Right.  Stdio.h was invented because it was discovered very quickly that the performance of read(2) and write(2) on a single character was horrible.
2020-08-16T19:26:25Z jcowan: Pretty much every time you cross over into kernel mode you are killing performance.
2020-08-16T19:27:14Z iv4nshm4k0v: Yep; context switches are costly.
2020-08-16T19:27:52Z aeth: jcowan: So is the right size a machine word or (potentially much) larger?
2020-08-16T19:28:06Z jcowan: Canonically the right size is a disk block.
2020-08-16T19:28:11Z aeth: ah
2020-08-16T19:28:57Z jcowan: Which was 512 bytes in the early days of Unix.  That's why df and du return 512-byte block counts by default.
2020-08-16T19:30:27Z Riastradh: aeth: Anything smaller than a cache line (typically 64 or 128 bytes) is definitely wrong.  Larger than the cache size as a whole, and you're probably wasting memory bandwidth.
2020-08-16T19:36:39Z jcowan: I think it's the disk cache that matters more here, though I may be out of date on that.
2020-08-16T19:36:47Z jcowan: s/more/most
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2020-08-16T19:40:43Z iv4nshm4k0v: I may be missing the context here, but IME the optimal IO size for Linux kernel syscalls was one page; which is 4096 on i386/amd64.
2020-08-16T19:40:57Z iv4nshm4k0v: 4 KiB, that is.
2020-08-16T19:41:27Z jcowan: Exactly
2020-08-16T19:43:17Z aeth: I wonder if reasoning changes based on the drive, e.g. SATA HDD vs. SATA SSD vs. M.2 NVMe SSD.
2020-08-16T19:43:43Z aeth: And you really can't know which one the user is using. (Even if their system drive is SSD, it doesn't mean your application winds up there.)
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2020-08-16T20:22:57Z jcowan: The sheer arbitrariness of history ...
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2020-08-16T21:00:58Z iv4nshm4k0v: aeth: Some platforms (such as the Linux kernel) /do/ provide (platform-specific) APIs to find out the properties of the underlying storage device, such as finding out whether one is SSD or HDD; check lsblk(8) for instance.  Moreover, POSIX (XSI) stat family of syscalls support reporting the st_blksize "preferred IO size" value.
2020-08-16T21:05:20Z iv4nshm4k0v: Using the platform-specific APIs may be somewhat complicated in the case where the the filesystem which the file of interest resides on itself resides on more than one physical device, which can very well have different properties.
2020-08-16T21:05:31Z Riastradh: For dd to raw disk devices, I find that about 1MB block size is optimal on NetBSD.  Generally you want it to be as large as is reasonable for the maximum latency you want to see in any one transfer.
2020-08-16T21:06:56Z Riastradh: st_blksize is a property of the file system, not of the underlying disk.  For example, on ffs, typically st_blksize is either 64K or 32K, while most spinning platters naturally work on 4K or 512b sectors, and SSDs usually have `erase blocks' of around 128K.
2020-08-16T21:07:58Z iv4nshm4k0v: Riastradh: Using larger bs= is intuitive, but the last time I've checked on GNU/Linux, the difference in dd performance with bs=4k and bs=1M was negligible.
2020-08-16T21:10:14Z iv4nshm4k0v: Riastradh: Note that POSIX explicitly allows for st_blksize to vary from file to file.  Whether the filesystem derives the value from the underlying device's properties or not is, of course, up to the implementor.
2020-08-16T21:12:39Z iv4nshm4k0v: (E. g., it's possible for Btrfs to span several devices, some of which may be HDD and some SSD.  In that case IIRC several copies of the metadata will be made, but any given file may end up being on one device or another.
2020-08-16T21:12:43Z iv4nshm4k0v: I'd expect that in cases like this the implementor may choose for stat to report different st_blksize values for different files.)
2020-08-16T21:12:58Z iv4nshm4k0v: That's somewhat theoretical, though.
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2020-08-16T22:17:07Z aeth: Perhaps I should have said, "In practice, compiling for the exact hardware of the user isn't going to happen, except perhaps in game consoles" instead of "can't"
2020-08-16T22:20:08Z aeth: Although I guess maybe someone could go through the effort in a JIT...
2020-08-16T22:29:02Z jcowan: Arch was supposed to solve that problem.  I don't know how hard it tries actually.
2020-08-16T22:33:09Z rilez: i think gentoo
2020-08-16T22:45:47Z jcowan: s/Arch/Gentoo
2020-08-16T22:46:01Z jcowan: I don't know if it notices things like disk block size, though.
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2020-08-16T23:21:24Z aeth: jcowan: but if only Arch/Gentoo users care about machine-specific compilation, then compiler authors probably won't prioritize these features.
2020-08-16T23:21:43Z aeth: At least until Arch market share is several dozen percent...
2020-08-16T23:30:18Z zaifir: NixOS could do that sort of thing.
2020-08-16T23:34:43Z zaifir: I guess the real place to look for practical machine-specific compilation these days is LLVM.
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2020-08-17T00:59:04Z dead10cc: does closures mean you can support lamda calclus in your language?
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2020-08-17T09:54:06Z ecraven: ;)
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2020-08-17T11:10:06Z dpk: there's an error in SRFI 115 resulting from an error in the Unicode TR29 specification that has since been fixed
2020-08-17T11:10:16Z dpk: i reported the error in TR29 here https://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2017-m12/0044.html
2020-08-17T11:10:23Z dpk: and it has since been fixed
2020-08-17T11:11:44Z dpk: but SRFI 115 (and its reference implementation) still use (+ ,char-set:regional-indicator) in their definitions of grapheme
2020-08-17T11:12:48Z dpk: Alex Shinn used to be around this channel, i thought …
2020-08-17T11:14:38Z wasamasa: yes, as foof
2020-08-17T11:29:37Z dpk: foof: see above. i haven't looked in detail at other changes to the extended grapheme cluster spec since then, but that one leapt out at me (for obvious reasons)
2020-08-17T11:30:13Z dpk: i'm not sure if it's even appropriate to change a SRFI after the fact for compliance with other specs which have received updates, though
2020-08-17T11:35:12Z erkin: I believe SRFIs can receive corrections.
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2020-08-17T11:52:52Z arew: +1
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2020-08-17T12:56:15Z foof: dpk: thanks, I will propose an errata to SRFI 115
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2020-08-17T13:06:52Z jcowan: It'll be Arthur's call whether it is an erratum or a post-finalization note (which is only advisory).
2020-08-17T13:19:40Z dpk: also, what is the difference between these two lines in the definition of cset-re?
2020-08-17T13:19:41Z dpk:      | (- <cset-sre> ...)          ; difference
2020-08-17T13:19:41Z dpk:      | (- <difference> ...)
2020-08-17T13:19:47Z dpk: is the second one a mistake?
2020-08-17T13:20:54Z jcowan: It has to be; there is no definition of <difference> anywhere.
2020-08-17T13:21:34Z dpk: +s in my question
2020-08-17T13:22:42Z dpk: ah, i see the error
2020-08-17T13:22:57Z dpk: the first one should be (difference <cset-sre> ...)          ; difference
2020-08-17T13:23:07Z dpk: the first one should be (- <cset-sre> ...)
2020-08-17T13:23:15Z dpk: *and the second one should be
2020-08-17T13:23:27Z dpk: (Muphry's law striking extensively here)
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2020-08-17T13:28:28Z jcowan: I call it Hartman's Law, mostly because Jed Hartman was a cow orker of mine at Google.
2020-08-17T13:28:57Z jcowan: Soon after I met him, I asked him, "Are you _the_ Hartman?"  He said he was.
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2020-08-17T13:30:03Z jcowan: (Likewise, at Reuters I cow orked with Kate Fodor, and asked her if she was one of _the_ Fodors.  We then had a nice conversation about what it's like to be academic underachievers in academic families.
2020-08-17T13:30:11Z jcowan: )
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2020-08-17T17:57:28Z aeth: jcowan: Did you work at Google back when it was cool? Cool. It's off-topic here, but imo something seemed to fundamentally change about Google around the time of Google+ in 2011. Do you agree?
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2020-08-17T18:25:32Z Riastradh: Heh.  Back in 2010, people were telling me it's a shame Google had ceased to be cool.
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2020-08-17T18:50:31Z erkin: It's funny how STk started out as a Scheme whose sole selling point is being able to interface with Tk so you don't have to use Tcl.
2020-08-17T18:50:52Z erkin: And the current STklos page doesn't even mention Tk. It mentions GTK instead.
2020-08-17T18:52:08Z LeoNerd: gstk, or sgtk?
2020-08-17T18:52:14Z erkin: hehe
2020-08-17T19:03:28Z arew: python support tk, it seems to have been a selling point of python at some point...
2020-08-17T19:03:35Z arew: I never used tk or tcl.
2020-08-17T19:04:52Z jcowan: Tk had the advantage of being cross-platform when nothing else was.  People call it ugly now, but that's just wanting your app to be a fashion model.
2020-08-17T19:05:09Z jcowan: Of course, desktop apps aren't exactly sexy either now.
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2020-08-17T19:07:08Z arew: or glamour...
2020-08-17T19:21:20Z aeth: Riastradh: 2011, maybe 2010, seems to be when Facebook was cool, idk what's cool now. Uber? Maybe that stopped with the lawsuit where they lost their self driving cars department.
2020-08-17T19:23:31Z aeth: But you know what's always cool? Scheme!
2020-08-17T19:24:36Z aeth: arew: Tk seemed to have outlived the popularity of Tcl itself by... at least a decade. Maybe because of Python.
2020-08-17T19:25:41Z aeth: But these days (post GTK 3), Qt seems to have a monopoly on that sort of thing... well, I mean, when people don't just use Electron, which almost everyone does.
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2020-08-17T19:29:40Z dTal: Everything stopped being cool in 2011
2020-08-17T19:29:51Z dTal: 2011 was the "smartphone" "revolution"
2020-08-17T19:30:22Z dTal: People stopped running "programs" and started using "apps"
2020-08-17T19:30:25Z aeth: dTal: more like a counter-revolution since it made computers impersonal again. :-P
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2020-08-17T19:38:13Z aeth: Early Android was pretty cool, though. I still use apps I got for my Nexus One that I absolutely couldn't discover and wouldn't bother looking for in the current Android. Maybe I should install F-Droid.
2020-08-17T19:40:04Z ecraven: hm.. is it just me, or is "The last password manager you'll ever want to use." *very* easy to misunderstand in a negative way?
2020-08-17T19:40:28Z Riastradh: heh
2020-08-17T19:40:43Z ecraven: (https://padloc.app)
2020-08-17T19:41:11Z aeth: ecraven: it would be even worse if they said "you'll ever use" instead of including "want to"
2020-08-17T19:41:24Z aeth: turns out it doubles as an asteroid magnet...
2020-08-17T19:47:22Z zaifir: The last password manager you'll ever want to use ... before storming off and writing your own like every other hacker.
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2020-08-17T19:51:05Z wasamasa: https://bitbucket.org/ckeen/pee/src/master/
2020-08-17T19:51:15Z wasamasa: > Pee - A password manager...because you have to
2020-08-17T19:51:30Z erkin: Short and memorable.
2020-08-17T20:01:07Z C-Keen: I have to use it daily
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2020-08-17T21:29:31Z arew: competition among implementation is all the rage on /r/scheme
2020-08-17T21:29:44Z arew: the implementation with most aficionados seems guile.
2020-08-17T21:29:55Z arew: friendly competition :)
2020-08-17T21:33:56Z mdhughes: I've written several large programs with Python's tkinter, and it's convenient, but it's not really cross-platform, you end up customizing UI by OS for fonts, widget sizes, layout, menus are completely different…
2020-08-17T21:34:54Z mdhughes: And it's very very slow, even by Python standards. I mostly just use turtle (which opens a single tk canvas) for graphing now.
2020-08-17T21:36:15Z mdhughes: But all the other GUI libs suck worse. Gtk+ is hideous everywhere. Qt is impossible to compile and then you're stuck in its shitty API.
2020-08-17T21:37:19Z mdhughes: Easier to just make a native UI once in Cocoa and Windows, with your business logic in any cross-platform language, and ship twice.
2020-08-17T21:38:06Z mdhughes: I can get away with SDL2 for games, but a real program can't just scribble on a canvas.
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2020-08-17T21:52:53Z ecraven: mdhughes: libui might be ok.. or if you want gl, imgui or nuklear
2020-08-17T21:53:03Z ecraven: libui might look native-ish, the others won't
2020-08-17T21:53:58Z mdhughes: Having a nice native UI will always take effort, because it's not about the button styling (tho that matters), but how the program workflow works, how all the parts behave together.
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2020-08-17T22:30:17Z aeth: arew: Of course Guile would have a lot of fans, because GNU is a cult. :-P
2020-08-17T22:30:30Z aeth: In the sense that people used to call Apple a cult back before iOS was mainstream.
2020-08-17T22:34:38Z aeth: no other implementation is attached to a brand afaik
2020-08-17T22:38:30Z mdhughes: Woo, Cisco fanboys represent! (representation is mandated by the Chinese Communist Party)
2020-08-17T22:39:12Z mdhughes: But seriously, I would expect there's an order of magnitude more Racket users than any other Scheme.
2020-08-17T22:44:42Z aeth: I hate Cisco because Webex is bad.
2020-08-17T22:45:47Z erkin: Switchzilla
2020-08-17T22:48:12Z aeth: Racket probably has more users, but their users are probably very academic, so they might not have as many *fans*.
2020-08-17T22:48:19Z aeth: (Students don't really get to pick what they use.)
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2020-08-18T00:48:09Z gwatt: I don't know, racket has a pretty full set of packages.
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2020-08-18T05:28:02Z lockywolf: The bouncer seems to be working. Please send me a message if there are still too many connect/disconnect messages.
2020-08-18T05:43:11Z arew: \o/
2020-08-18T05:43:37Z arew: (mind the fact that i rely on a smart filter and do not see connect / disconnect messages)
2020-08-18T05:43:44Z arew: (and you should too)
2020-08-18T05:47:57Z Zipheir: Smart filters are too smart.
2020-08-18T05:48:38Z Zipheir: "A smart tty is not a smart-ass tty, but one you can educate." --Rob Pike
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2020-08-18T09:11:10Z aeth: I don't hide joins/parts/quits but I probably will have to since at this point there's almost always more of those than chat messages
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2020-08-18T11:38:03Z mdhughes: I've never seen them in LimeChat, so anytime I look at logs it's just intolerable. Have to put it in an editor and filter out all those lines.
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2020-08-18T14:29:31Z jcowan: ecraven, aeth:  "If you lend me this money I shall forever be indebted to you" is simmilarly problematic
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2020-08-18T19:37:25Z ecraven: nice one ;)
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2020-08-18T21:00:36Z aeth: mdhughes: Well, my client just does text logs (which does mean that formatting is lost if e.g. channels allow colors) so I just pipe tail into grep -v and those are the logs I actually read.
2020-08-18T21:01:41Z aeth: Of course, I will filter out any lines that actually have "-!-" in them, like this one. That's how my client prefixes joins/parts/quits. I guess a more sophisticated regex could only do filter it after the timestamp
2020-08-18T21:01:54Z aeth: s/only do filter/only filter/
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2020-08-19T00:13:58Z jgart: functions defined in this style that use a lambda explicitly for every define: http://rohandrape.net/sw/rsc3-dot/src/dot.scm
2020-08-19T00:14:08Z jgart: is that part of some srfi?
2020-08-19T00:14:17Z jgart: or some style?
2020-08-19T00:17:21Z ft: (define (foo n) (+ 1 n)) is just syntactic sugar for (define foo (lambda (n) (+ 1 n))
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2020-08-19T00:22:58Z jgart: ft, when is it best to choose one style over the other?
2020-08-19T00:23:24Z jgart: it looks like rohan drape chose to use the desugared version for his project
2020-08-19T00:24:22Z mdhughes: Dybvig prefers the lambda version, and it does make it easier to switch to case-lambda when you want to pattern match.
2020-08-19T00:25:34Z mdhughes: (define foo (lambda (x) ...)) -> (define foo (case-lambda [(x) ...] [(x y) ...]))
2020-08-19T00:27:56Z ft: Yeah, I think it's mostly a matter of personal taste.
2020-08-19T00:28:43Z jgart: I've seen it in the Dybvig text also
2020-08-19T00:28:59Z jgart: has anyone seen the desugared style anywhere else?
2020-08-19T00:29:10Z jgart: mdhughes, thanks for the explanation. That makes sense
2020-08-19T00:29:48Z mdhughes: If you watch the SICP lectures, there's a couple parts where students are confused by the distinction, and Abelson has to write it both ways to show it's the same thing.
2020-08-19T00:30:32Z jgart: Ohh right! that's what that was. It's in one of the first videos right?
2020-08-19T00:31:01Z jgart: I should have paid closer attention while binge watching those
2020-08-19T00:31:18Z jgart: on 2x speed
2020-08-19T00:31:27Z mdhughes: Yeah. It's always struck me as a "code smell", that there's multiple ways to write a function. JS has the same problem.
2020-08-19T00:32:08Z mdhughes: Except now there's at least 4 ways in JS, with different semantics for each.
2020-08-19T00:32:21Z jgart: I guess that's what's nice about golang...
2020-08-19T00:39:26Z jgart: I'm trying to understand the apply and eval primitives. What are some canonical examples of how those two are used?
2020-08-19T00:39:44Z jgart: are there any other primitives that are implemented with apply and/or eval?
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2020-08-19T00:57:56Z aeth: aaaaaaaaaaaactually...
2020-08-19T00:58:00Z aeth: they're not necessarily the same thing
2020-08-19T00:59:12Z aeth: It's possible, depending on the implementation, that (define foo (lambda () ...)) gets you something like #<anonymous procedure> and (define (foo) ...) gets you something like #<procedure foo>
2020-08-19T00:59:27Z aeth: Same issue, and probably more likely, if you rename procedures.
2020-08-19T01:00:40Z aeth: The issue is when they're not identical in a meaningful/noticable way, like in JS.
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2020-08-19T01:08:31Z jgart: aeth, which style do you use most often?
2020-08-19T01:11:10Z aeth: I always use the shorter style, and in general, I prefer shorter code as long as it doesn't impact performance. I use Lisps for token-level conciseness. (Anyone can bind special meanings to $%*$%^&@#$^&% and have character-level conciseness, but have fun reading that.)
2020-08-19T01:18:56Z aeth: The downside of my approach, of course, is that I don't hesitate to define custom macros as often as most do, which means that my code is less approachable.
2020-08-19T01:23:43Z mdhughes: Actually 6 JS function syntaces, but only 4 different semantics, so yay?
2020-08-19T01:23:45Z mdhughes: https://paste.debian.net/1160436/
2020-08-19T01:27:46Z aeth: So in Racket if you do this... (define foo (lambda () #f))
2020-08-19T01:27:53Z aeth: foo => #<procedure:foo>
2020-08-19T01:28:16Z aeth: So in Racket the semantics aren't different, define (or lambda) handles it and gives it the name
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2020-08-19T01:29:03Z aeth: Guile is similar, it's #<procedure foo ()>
2020-08-19T01:29:15Z aeth: I guess the verbose style is popular enough to handle as a special case.
2020-08-19T01:29:16Z mdhughes: What if you assign it to multiple names?
2020-08-19T01:29:43Z aeth: it will use the original name
2020-08-19T01:29:48Z mdhughes: Aw. Racket still says #<procedure:foo>
2020-08-19T01:30:52Z aeth: Now, if they both didn't special case this, it would say their equivalent of anonymous-procedure, in the case of Racket it'd be #<procedure> which you can see if you just type the lambda directly in the REPL
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2020-08-19T01:31:08Z aeth: But since define is a macro, they can special case it. But not for the case of (define bar foo) of course
2020-08-19T01:31:15Z torbo: Is there any way in Scheme to tell whether an identifier is bound to syntax?  For example, (procedure? +) will return #t.  Is there an identifier x? such that (x? and) will return #t?
2020-08-19T01:32:20Z aeth: I just tried and in Racket it's just (syntax? +) => #f
2020-08-19T01:32:22Z aeth: but it's not standard
2020-08-19T01:32:28Z aeth: Guile doesn't accept it
2020-08-19T01:33:57Z mdhughes: > (syntax? and)
2020-08-19T01:33:58Z mdhughes: ; readline-input:1:9: and: bad syntax
2020-08-19T01:34:27Z aeth: so does it always return #f or an error then? :-p
2020-08-19T01:34:59Z aeth: I guess the issue is you don't have higher order syntax like you have higher order functions for procedures
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2020-08-19T02:06:24Z Zipheir: I'm sure Oleg could figure out how to write such a thing.  In syntax-rules, no less.
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2020-08-19T02:12:19Z Zipheir: Explicit-lambda or "Dybvig style" is found in The Little Schemer and in other introductory books on Scheme.
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2020-08-19T02:13:00Z Zipheir: I've never seen it in Scheme programs otherwise, unless they were by Dybvig himself.
2020-08-19T02:13:15Z lockywolf: https://paste.debian.net/1160438/
2020-08-19T02:13:46Z lockywolf: Not a syntax? macro, but may provide some inspiration.
2020-08-19T02:18:49Z Zipheir: (I would certainly use (define f (lambda (x) ...)) for teaching Scheme, since it's clear that a procedure definition is no different than any other.  And it's easy to later drop the define and use Y-combinator recursion, as in TLS.)
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2020-08-19T02:24:45Z aeth: re "no different than any other"... That makes me think of the Lisp-2 equivalent which in CL is (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda () nil))
2020-08-19T02:25:34Z aeth: Or Schemified... (set! (procedure-namespace 'foo) (lambda () #f))
2020-08-19T02:26:07Z aeth: (alternatively, you ould say "set-procedure-namespace! 'foo ...")
2020-08-19T02:26:15Z aeth: *could
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2020-08-19T02:27:01Z Zipheir: lockywolf: Yeah, that's the Oleg magic I was riffing on.
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2020-08-19T02:27:31Z siraben: IMO CL makes it clearer to newcomers what the parameters are, (defun foo (x y)...)
2020-08-19T02:28:08Z siraben: Indeed R5RS says that define can be treated as set! where the name being defined is in scope
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2020-08-19T02:31:13Z aeth: I'm just disappointed you can't do this in CL and abuse the function namespace to store non-functions: (setf (fdefinition 'foo) 42)
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2020-08-19T02:36:54Z aeth: Because then CL would be a Lisp-1 hiding within a Lisp-2, with secret lexically scoped global variables.
2020-08-19T02:38:32Z jgart: Zipheir, thanks for that insight
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2020-08-19T02:52:59Z jcowan: siraben: only top-level defines can be treated as set!
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2020-08-19T02:55:49Z siraben: jcowan: Ah, right.
2020-08-19T03:00:44Z jgart: how can I get everything but the car and last of a list? '(0 1 2 4 7 8) => '(1 2 4 7)
2020-08-19T03:05:08Z jgart: (cdr (butlast ls))
2020-08-19T03:05:11Z jgart: I did the above
2020-08-19T03:05:52Z jcowan: jgart: (cdr (take x (- (length x) 1)))
2020-08-19T03:06:03Z jcowan: import srfi 1 to get `take`
2020-08-19T03:14:14Z jgart: thanks jcowan
2020-08-19T03:15:19Z jgart: I'm going to go with butlast above since it it shorter but thank you for showing another way to solve this
2020-08-19T03:16:21Z Zipheir: jgart: What are you doing with that?
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2020-08-19T03:22:40Z Zipheir: jgart: I ask because I think it's a somewhat awkward list transformation, and there may be a better approach.
2020-08-19T03:23:12Z jgart: Zipheir, https://paste.gnome.org/p5hppdrli
2020-08-19T03:23:44Z jgart: Zipheir, how can I make expand-chord more elegant?
2020-08-19T03:24:33Z jgart: I'd like to reduce all the list procedure call repetitions in the code
2020-08-19T03:24:36Z jgart: a macro?
2020-08-19T03:24:39Z jgart: xlist
2020-08-19T03:25:29Z Zipheir looks
2020-08-19T03:25:37Z jgart: I call expand-chord like so: (expand-chord %tetrachords)
2020-08-19T03:26:16Z Zipheir: Ah, ok.
2020-08-19T03:26:29Z jgart: actually expand-chord is wrong in that paste
2020-08-19T03:26:35Z jgart: it fails currently
2020-08-19T03:27:28Z Zipheir: jgart: If you have access to a pattern-matcher, this could be very terse indeed.
2020-08-19T03:27:38Z jgart: def is the same thing as define in the above code
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2020-08-19T03:29:21Z jgart: the above list then gets converted to lilypond tokens by a procedure called lily and produces a musical score
2020-08-19T03:30:02Z jgart: here's the full repo in case you are interested: https://notabug.org/ccao001/gac
2020-08-19T03:30:19Z Zipheir: jgart: Right.
2020-08-19T03:31:06Z Zipheir: jgart: LGTM.  It's pretty concise.
2020-08-19T03:31:15Z jgart: Zipheir, I'm trying to make a small computer-assisted music composition library for my needs
2020-08-19T03:31:24Z jgart: what is LGTM?
2020-08-19T03:31:25Z Zipheir: jgart: Interesting!
2020-08-19T03:31:31Z Zipheir: jgart: Looks Good To Me.
2020-08-19T03:32:16Z jgart: here are all the chords that are possible in equal-temperament as a scheme list: https://notabug.org/ccao001/gac/src/master/sg1.scm
2020-08-19T03:32:45Z jgart: wikipedia also has a public list of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pitch-class_sets
2020-08-19T03:32:45Z Zipheir: 12-tone ET, I take it.
2020-08-19T03:33:18Z jgart: the file is called sg1 after musical theorist Robert D. Morris' Set Group 1
2020-08-19T03:33:20Z Zipheir: Schoenberg would be proud. :)
2020-08-19T03:33:24Z jgart: hahaha
2020-08-19T03:33:59Z jgart: it's just a fancy way of saying that inversion is not included as a binary operator in my set group
2020-08-19T03:34:28Z jgart: only transposition (musical transposition i.e. addition modulo 12)
2020-08-19T03:34:33Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-08-19T03:36:04Z jgart: now I want to manipulate these chords/melodies by using all the tricks a schemer would use on ordinary lists
2020-08-19T03:36:31Z jgart: those list operations can have interesting musical applications
2020-08-19T03:36:42Z jgart: it's nothing novel
2020-08-19T03:37:15Z Zipheir: jgart: Are you familiar with Paul Hudak's music algebra?
2020-08-19T03:37:17Z jgart: but I just want to build this small dsl biased towards my way of thinking about music composition with the procedures that I prefer
2020-08-19T03:37:25Z jgart: Haskell School of Music?
2020-08-19T03:37:30Z Zipheir: jgart: Yes.
2020-08-19T03:37:41Z Zipheir: Well, that's the book.  Euterpea is the library.
2020-08-19T03:37:44Z jgart: yes, it's a nice EDSL
2020-08-19T03:37:47Z jgart: right
2020-08-19T03:37:59Z jgart: I was messing a bit with euterpea the other day
2020-08-19T03:38:36Z jgart: It's approach to modeling pitch and pitch-class is elegant
2020-08-19T03:39:20Z Zipheir: jgart: It's easy to translate into Scheme.  I've written something modeled on it, compiling to Csound, for working with just music http://chiselapp.com/user/Zipheir/repository/scheme-score/artifact/b5235475798e3635
2020-08-19T03:39:45Z Zipheir: (That's just-intoned music, not "just" music.)
2020-08-19T03:41:06Z Zipheir: jgart: Unfortunately, the musically-interesting combinatorial list operations aren't provided by any Scheme libraries, that I know of.
2020-08-19T03:41:36Z jgart: very cool!
2020-08-19T03:41:48Z jgart: so you are targeting csound score file?
2020-08-19T03:42:27Z jgart: I'd like to translate this to scheme: https://github.com/dpocknee/dodecafinder
2020-08-19T03:42:32Z Zipheir: jgart: Yes.  It's the closest thing to audio asm that I know of :)
2020-08-19T03:42:57Z jgart: It uses a genetic algo to find "optimal twelve tone rows" given fitness criteria
2020-08-19T03:43:13Z jgart: what is asm?
2020-08-19T03:43:21Z Zipheir: Assembly.
2020-08-19T03:43:25Z jgart: ohh ok
2020-08-19T03:43:40Z jgart: http://rohandrape.net/?t=rsc3
2020-08-19T03:43:44Z jgart: have you seen that?
2020-08-19T03:43:48Z Zipheir: Wow, genetic algorithms for finding tone-rows...
2020-08-19T03:43:53Z jgart: yes!
2020-08-19T03:44:15Z jgart: and then I'd like to send them to lilypond to produce a score
2020-08-19T03:44:45Z Zipheir: In Ruby, no less.  I wonder what the code looks like...
2020-08-19T03:44:46Z jgart: rsc3 targets supercollider Ugens and communicates with scsynth server
2020-08-19T03:44:48Z Zipheir: AUGH MY EYES
2020-08-19T03:45:12Z jgart: there's alot of code because of the GUI
2020-08-19T03:45:20Z jgart: all in one file
2020-08-19T03:46:03Z Zipheir: Lilypond input is definitely a good target.
2020-08-19T03:46:23Z jgart: Zipheir, I'm looking forward to reading through your code
2020-08-19T03:46:40Z jgart: Guido is another nice notation engine
2020-08-19T03:46:49Z jgart: It compiles a score in real time
2020-08-19T03:47:01Z Zipheir: jgart: Thanks.  I need to find some good Csound instruments to actually make interesting music with it.
2020-08-19T03:47:01Z jgart: https://github.com/grame-cncm/guidolib
2020-08-19T03:47:08Z Zipheir: jgart: Cool!
2020-08-19T03:47:29Z jgart: have you heard of music-suite?
2020-08-19T03:47:30Z jgart: http://music-suite.github.io/docs/ref/
2020-08-19T03:47:44Z jgart: it is a dsl for music composition
2020-08-19T03:48:53Z Zipheir: OK, it's Haskell-like, but not embedded in Haskell.
2020-08-19T03:49:27Z Zipheir: That's very interesting.  More of a compositional tool than LilyPond, which is just markup.
2020-08-19T03:49:59Z jgart: I'd like to be able to have code that can generate semi-random trichords that all have prescribed common-tone constraints
2020-08-19T03:51:53Z Zipheir: jgart: Make a trichord generator! https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-158/srfi-158.html
2020-08-19T03:51:57Z jgart: the progression of chords (e.g. constrained to have one common tone or none) can be generated by a mapping from this gray code: https://paste.gnome.org/pkf4tgrym
2020-08-19T03:52:39Z jgart: so in that context 0 means no common tones, 1 means one common tone
2020-08-19T03:52:59Z jgart: the gray code is read from left to right and controls the voice leading of the trichords
2020-08-19T03:53:24Z Zipheir: Interesting.
2020-08-19T03:53:40Z jgart: trichord generator sounds cool!
2020-08-19T03:53:41Z Zipheir: That's a fascinating way to describe counterpoint.
2020-08-19T03:54:06Z jgart: Zipheir, so it's like an iota that spits out trichordal sublist instead of integers?
2020-08-19T03:54:15Z jgart: *sublists
2020-08-19T03:54:39Z jgart: trichordal-iota
2020-08-19T03:54:51Z Zipheir: jgart: It's a thunk that you can use to create, say, a lazy sequence of elements.
2020-08-19T03:55:23Z jgart: then I can use take to grab as many trichords as I want?
2020-08-19T03:55:59Z Zipheir: Right.  You can use https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-127/srfi-127.html, which are mostly just like lists.
2020-08-19T03:56:20Z Zipheir: (An lseq is a list whose tail is a generator.)
2020-08-19T03:57:03Z jgart: cool! thanks for the tips
2020-08-19T03:57:06Z Zipheir: If you're generating lots of random musical events, laziness is your friend!
2020-08-19T03:57:56Z Zipheir: s/events/chords, whatever/
2020-08-19T03:58:03Z jgart: Zipheir, have you heard of link chords?
2020-08-19T03:58:34Z jgart: after theorist John Link
2020-08-19T03:58:45Z Zipheir: Ah, no.
2020-08-19T03:59:18Z jgart: but you've heard of 12-note chords for sure?
2020-08-19T03:59:32Z jgart: have you heard of all-interval 12 note chords?
2020-08-19T03:59:58Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-08-19T04:00:48Z Zipheir: (In some book on serial theory which I've mostly forgotten, probably.)
2020-08-19T04:01:16Z jgart: a Link chord is an all-interval 12 note chord with an embedded/contiguous all trichord hexachord inside it
2020-08-19T04:01:24Z jgart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-trichord_hexachord
2020-08-19T04:01:36Z jgart: here's a list of them: http://www.johnlinkmusic.com/LinkChords.pdf
2020-08-19T04:02:33Z Zipheir: Well, that's arcane.
2020-08-19T04:02:49Z jgart: It gets more arcane
2020-08-19T04:03:06Z Zipheir: It always does with Elliott Carter disciples. :)
2020-08-19T04:03:09Z jgart: there are only 44 that have two embedded/tiled all trichord hexachords
2020-08-19T04:03:19Z Zipheir: "Scientific theories are judged by the coherence they lend to our natural
2020-08-19T04:03:19Z Zipheir: experience and the simplicity with which they do so. The grand principle
2020-08-19T04:03:19Z Zipheir: of the heavens balances on the razor's edge of truth."
2020-08-19T04:03:27Z Zipheir: Oops!
2020-08-19T04:03:37Z Zipheir: Sorry for the random paste.
2020-08-19T04:03:42Z jgart: lol no worries
2020-08-19T04:04:08Z jgart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpermutation
2020-08-19T04:04:21Z jgart: superpermutations as melodies are also an interesting concept
2020-08-19T04:05:08Z Zipheir: Interesting.  My first composition teacher used a similar approach, namely fractal algorithms.
2020-08-19T04:05:51Z jgart: here's a score that the structure is a superpermutation: https://archive.org/details/supermelody_three
2020-08-19T04:05:53Z jgart: cool!
2020-08-19T04:06:01Z jgart: L-systems are nice too
2020-08-19T04:06:05Z jgart: for music
2020-08-19T04:07:25Z Zipheir: Good sources of inspiration, indeed.
2020-08-19T04:07:53Z jgart: the above score is read as follows: green barlines are played once, red bar lines twice, black barlines three times
2020-08-19T04:08:14Z jgart: the numbers represent any action, sound, event
2020-08-19T04:08:28Z jgart: 1 is sound one, 2 is sound two, 3 is sound three
2020-08-19T04:08:46Z jgart: you choose your 3 sounds, actions, events etc... before performing the score
2020-08-19T04:08:57Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-08-19T04:09:06Z jgart: like let variable hahaha
2020-08-19T04:09:28Z jgart: Zipheir, where can I find more of your code to read?
2020-08-19T04:10:46Z Zipheir: jgart: The music compiler?  It's in the repo I pasted: https://chiselapp.com/user/Zipheir/repository/scheme-score/artifact/3bc06956cec9b078
2020-08-19T04:10:59Z jgart: cool
2020-08-19T04:11:02Z Zipheir: CHICKEN-specific, at the moment.  I need to update it.
2020-08-19T04:11:06Z jgart: Ohh I see here: http://chiselapp.com/user/Zipheir/
2020-08-19T04:11:32Z jgart: I've been wanting to try my hands at more chicken scheme
2020-08-19T04:12:29Z jgart: this is an impressive project: https://depp.brause.cc/depp/
2020-08-19T04:12:43Z Zipheir: CHICKEN is clean, fast, and has lots of library support.
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2020-08-19T04:13:11Z Zipheir: But like every Scheme it has its own idiosyncratic ways of doing everything.
2020-08-19T04:13:25Z jgart: and this https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/sass
2020-08-19T04:13:34Z jgart: sure
2020-08-19T04:13:53Z Zipheir: Nice.
2020-08-19T04:14:25Z jgart: The above lily library is mostly written in gambit for the moment with macros and goodies taken from this lib: https://github.com/pflanze/chj-schemelib
2020-08-19T04:14:55Z jgart: might port it over to chez or guile at some point
2020-08-19T04:15:24Z jgart: depending on what I end up doing with it
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2020-08-19T04:54:36Z jgart: how can I give this as input '(1 1 1 1) and get this as output '(0 1 2 3)
2020-08-19T04:54:50Z jgart: I want to construct a list from intervals
2020-08-19T04:55:29Z jgart: my input list above shows the intervals between adjacent integers in the output list
2020-08-19T04:55:53Z jgart: any suggestions/tips are greatly appreciated
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2020-08-19T05:04:15Z jgart: sorry, the input list should be '(1 1 1) not '(1 1 1 1), it builds the intervals from a "root" i.e. integer 0
2020-08-19T05:07:55Z jgart: so an input list of '(1 1 1) would output '(0 1 2 3)
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2020-08-19T05:54:18Z Zipheir: jgart: I'm about to sign off for the night, but here goes.
2020-08-19T05:54:28Z Zipheir: jgart: It's clearly a fold.
2020-08-19T05:55:07Z jgart: thanks! Zipheir
2020-08-19T05:55:16Z jgart: I'll try that. Thanks!
2020-08-19T05:55:19Z Zipheir: One sec, trying to write an example.
2020-08-19T05:55:22Z jgart: ok
2020-08-19T05:55:27Z jgart: cool
2020-08-19T06:01:11Z Zipheir: (unfold (lambda (p) (null? (car p))) (lambda (p) (+ (car p) (cadr p))) (lambda (p) (list (cdr (car p)) (+ (cadr p) (car p))) (list interval-list root))
2020-08-19T06:01:32Z Zipheir: Actually, it's easier to express as an unfold.
2020-08-19T06:01:59Z Zipheir: Complicated by the fact that both the last pitch computed and the interval list are state values.
2020-08-19T06:02:48Z Zipheir: Anyway, good night.  I wish that example could've been simpler, but I am tired.
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2020-08-19T06:04:02Z Zipheir: Oops, the successor function should have been (lambda (p) (list (cdar p) (+ (cadr p) (caar p)))).  Ugh.
2020-08-19T06:05:17Z jgart: thanks Zipheir, I'll play around with it
2020-08-19T06:05:27Z jgart: Good night!
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2020-08-19T06:27:06Z aeth: at that point just iterate
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2020-08-19T06:56:21Z arew: hello #scheme!
2020-08-19T06:57:10Z aeth: !emehcs# olleh
2020-08-19T06:58:59Z arew: is it the famous serever syndrom?
2020-08-19T06:59:53Z arew: esrever!
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2020-08-19T09:21:16Z amirouche: I made a giant list of 101 software project I would like to od
2020-08-19T09:21:20Z amirouche: s/od/do/
2020-08-19T09:23:25Z amirouche: they are near duplicate easy grabs. Actually 102 items.
2020-08-19T09:24:38Z amirouche: https://gist.github.com/amirouche/b20fe756b0b180a5a8bf95fe75c7bc24
2020-08-19T09:25:14Z amirouche: some look very difficult like: xinos
2020-08-19T09:25:15Z amirouche: :D
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2020-08-19T09:40:06Z wasamasa: that list looks artifically inflated
2020-08-19T09:40:17Z wasamasa: why do you need three variants of everything
2020-08-19T09:44:33Z amirouche: different features
2020-08-19T09:45:09Z wasamasa: I mean, come on, using different databases as backends
2020-08-19T09:45:17Z amirouche: the fast version is based mmap and is... fast. the lite version is based on sqlite and comes cheap, and fdb is for the comp.lang.scheme spammer ;)
2020-08-19T09:45:34Z wasamasa: what is fdb?
2020-08-19T09:45:38Z amirouche: foundationdb
2020-08-19T09:45:46Z wasamasa: lol
2020-08-19T09:45:51Z amirouche: what?
2020-08-19T09:46:26Z wasamasa: the comp.lang.scheme spammer always talks about doing it in 100% scheme
2020-08-19T09:46:37Z wasamasa: so I don't see that as solution
2020-08-19T09:48:39Z amirouche: oh no
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2020-08-19T10:00:11Z wasamasa: also, I expect you to eventually converge on one solution
2020-08-19T10:00:26Z wasamasa: and if not, write a trivial wrapper to pick a backend
2020-08-19T10:48:43Z amirouche: how so? what convergence do you think about?
2020-08-19T10:49:41Z amirouche: libmdbx is used in much larger workload than sqlite (https://github.com/erthink/libmdbx)
2020-08-19T10:50:11Z amirouche: you think of those lite / fast / fdb as different backend for different usecases
2020-08-19T10:50:18Z wasamasa: the "Well, everything but this one solution sucks, so let's drop the rest" kind
2020-08-19T10:50:35Z wasamasa: I bet if you surveyed users, you'd find that >90% use the default backend
2020-08-19T10:50:36Z amirouche: it would be foundationdb, but it requires to install something on the host :/
2020-08-19T10:50:54Z amirouche: whereas sqlite is just an .so
2020-08-19T10:50:59Z wasamasa: but who knows, maybe DBAs are different
2020-08-19T10:51:57Z amirouche: the goal with this list to avoid procrastinating (too much) and have a decent set of useful programs, still the main takeaway will "see scheme can do stuff"
2020-08-19T10:52:09Z amirouche: I do not plan to compete with postgresql or something
2020-08-19T10:54:09Z wasamasa: your workload does compete though :P
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2020-08-19T10:55:48Z wasamasa: suppose each project takes a month to finish, then you're busy for... 8.5 years
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2020-08-19T12:16:24Z amirouche: \o/
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2020-08-19T14:39:22Z amirouche: in fact all the database stuff I already have some code for them so around 10 to 20 of them will be done before september
2020-08-19T14:39:24Z amirouche: I hope.
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2020-08-19T15:06:02Z Zipheir: aeth: If you mean "just iterate" whenever one starts writing a fold/unfold with more than one state value, I don't think so.  The problem is that standard Scheme gets very verbose in such cases.  You either go multiple-values (and get values/let-values everywhere) or use explicit list destructuring.
2020-08-19T15:06:29Z Zipheir: With pattern-matching, though, the latter is quite easy.
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2020-08-19T20:03:19Z Sinister: Schemers! I am undecided wether i should Scheme or not.
2020-08-19T20:03:25Z Sinister: I have come to you for guidance :O
2020-08-19T20:04:23Z ecraven: when in doubt, Scheme!
2020-08-19T20:05:50Z wasamasa: I like to call these questions biased
2020-08-19T20:06:11Z Sinister: All questions are biased somehow :D
2020-08-19T20:06:25Z wasamasa: this one is because of the place you're asking
2020-08-19T20:07:18Z Sinister: It is still worth debating wether to Scheme or not
2020-08-19T20:07:26Z Sinister: it is not like any p-language is magical
2020-08-19T20:07:36Z Sinister: with unicorns and gold-kittens flying around
2020-08-19T20:12:05Z Zipheir: Sinister: Do you know Scheme already, or are you asking whether you should learn?
2020-08-19T20:12:52Z Sinister: I am looking to learn a functional programming language
2020-08-19T20:13:04Z Sinister: Cant decide wich one to pick
2020-08-19T20:13:06Z Zipheir: Sinister: Well, Scheme is a simple one.
2020-08-19T20:13:19Z Zipheir: Sinister: What you learn here will help in every other functional language.
2020-08-19T20:13:37Z Sinister: Good to hear
2020-08-19T20:13:39Z Zipheir: Sinister: It's all (mostly) λ-calculus, anyway.
2020-08-19T20:14:55Z Sinister: How would you say it differs from, say F#
2020-08-19T20:16:28Z Zipheir: I don't know F#, but having static typing makes it more like the ML family (SML, Haskell, etc.)
2020-08-19T20:16:32Z vultyre: Sinister: They have pretty different syntaxes and F# is strongly typed
2020-08-19T20:16:42Z Zipheir: Scheme is strongly-typed.
2020-08-19T20:17:08Z vultyre: s/strongly/statically
2020-08-19T20:17:43Z Sinister: I have used F# instead of R - but i am strongly leaning towards learning Scheme
2020-08-19T20:17:54Z Sinister: i need something deeper and more fundamental
2020-08-19T20:18:27Z Zipheir: Sinister: You might read The Little Schemer.  It's very fundamental.
2020-08-19T20:22:27Z Zipheir: Sinister: If you want a mostly language-agnostic intro to functional programming, that's also available.  Check out Michaelson's book: http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/books/gjm.lambook88.pdf , or Bird & Wadler's Intro To FP.
2020-08-19T20:23:25Z Sinister: Thanks
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2020-08-19T20:25:26Z aeth: Zipheir: No, by just iterate I mean, "if your use of higher order functions is that verbose and complicated, then just use an iteration macro, or if you're a Scheme purist directly write the tail recursion"
2020-08-19T20:26:45Z aeth: Imo, higher order functions tend to work best when it's either trivial or the procedure to pass in happens to be an already-existing procedure
2020-08-19T20:26:57Z Zipheir: aeth: I probably would.  I'm saying that it would be better if it were not so verbose, and that is possible with pattern-matching.
2020-08-19T20:28:24Z Zipheir: aeth: "Recursive equations are the assembly language of functional programming, and direct recursion is its GOTO."
2020-08-19T20:28:37Z Zipheir: ^^ --Jeremy Gibbons
2020-08-19T20:29:02Z Zipheir: Higher-order functions are extremely good for getting rid of explicit recursion.
2020-08-19T20:29:34Z Zipheir: i.e. for replacing knotty and possibly-incorrect (tail-)recursions with well-known patterns.
2020-08-19T20:29:35Z aeth: Zipheir: eh, the only difference between an elaborate iteration macro and elaborate pattern matching is that neither are elaborate enough. Combine them both and now you get an elaborate iteration macro with pattern matching! :-p
2020-08-19T20:30:10Z Zipheir: :)
2020-08-19T20:30:15Z aeth: CL's LOOP really missed a good opportunity to build in the entirety of DESTRUCTURING-BIND directly into itself. Instead it has a pretty weak destructuring capability built-in.
2020-08-19T20:30:29Z Zipheir: And ZERO scoping discipline.
2020-08-19T20:31:25Z Zipheir: (This is why Olin Loop ended up being a massive macro with a built-in compiler, IMO.  "Scope is everything" in loop macros (Dan Friedman), and getting it right in general is really hard.)
2020-08-19T20:31:42Z Riastradh: foof-loop doesn't write an Olin compiler in a macro
2020-08-19T20:31:44Z Riastradh: er
2020-08-19T20:31:45Z Riastradh: doesn't require
2020-08-19T20:31:48Z jcowan: And yet it won instead of Series, which was because everyone had used such things in earlier Lisps, consistent with the design principled of "a common Lisp".
2020-08-19T20:31:52Z Riastradh: (...how did `require' become `write'?)
2020-08-19T20:32:08Z aeth: Oh, and I'm somewhat joking about "an elaborate iteration macro with pattern matching" because that's what stalled Airship Scheme so much. I wanted to make my read-case so elaborate that it would make writing the Scheme reader trivial, and in the process I spent more work than just writing it out inelegantly in the first place. Once I removed iteration from read-case, it became a straightforward macro to write because I only matched on on
2020-08-19T20:32:18Z jcowan: Zipheir: I feel much less drugged now
2020-08-19T20:32:19Z ecraven: Riastradh: Freud? you want to write a version of foof-loop that *writes* software?
2020-08-19T20:32:31Z aeth: *I only matched on one character at a time
2020-08-19T20:32:31Z Zipheir: jcowan: I'm glad to hear it. :)
2020-08-19T20:32:33Z aeth: (the line cut off)
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2020-08-19T20:33:01Z jcowan: All macros write software, hence the line about Lisp programmers never writing Lisp because their macros do it for them.
2020-08-19T20:33:44Z Zipheir: I'd still like to see the Olin Loop code someday.
2020-08-19T20:34:00Z Riastradh: foof-loop also has the advantage of existing in the real world and not just on Olin's hard drive.
2020-08-19T20:34:10Z jcowan: I don't know anyone who has asked him for it, and it almost certainly is not on line.
2020-08-19T20:35:09Z Zipheir: *Allegedly* other people have seen his loop code.  I can't remember who mentioned it...
2020-08-19T20:35:12Z jcowan: One of the things to choose about looping will be foof's loop vs. foof-loop: they are compatible except in the extensibility API (IIRC).
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2020-08-19T20:35:56Z jcowan: aeth: "because I only matched on" what?  Line was cut off.
2020-08-19T20:36:09Z jcowan: Me, I like SRFI 42.
2020-08-19T20:36:09Z aeth: jcowan: one character at a time
2020-08-19T20:36:19Z Riastradh: srfi-42 is bad and (nested-)foof-loop is good
2020-08-19T20:36:51Z aeth: jcowan: All of the complexity in the design was trying to match sequences of characters with the CL reader restriction of only being able to unread at most once.
2020-08-19T20:37:08Z Zipheir: SRFI 42 integrates nicely with higher-order functions.
2020-08-19T20:37:33Z jcowan: Yes.  If you really have to do that, probably writing your own infinite-pushback macros would be a good idea.
2020-08-19T20:37:35Z Riastradh: Zipheir: How is it different from nested-foof-loop in that respect?
2020-08-19T20:38:04Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I don't know.  I haven't used nested-foof-loop.
2020-08-19T20:38:33Z Riastradh: Zipheir: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.scm https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.txt https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/loop-comparison.scm
2020-08-19T20:38:51Z aeth: jcowan: In practice, there are really only two things that need to be matched, though. Character-by-character (e.g. #t) or entire-string-exact-match (e.g. "rue" following "#t" or fail). The latter will just become a separate macro, though.
2020-08-19T20:38:57Z Zipheir: Riastradh: ty
2020-08-19T20:39:50Z jcowan: Riastradh: And cretiens sont droit et payens sont tort, or however they spelled it in Old French (a language for which knowing Modern French is a serious handicap)
2020-08-19T20:40:07Z jcowan: (oops, other way around)
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2020-08-20T04:53:16Z siraben: Anyone aware of lens-like libraries for Scheme?
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2020-08-20T05:43:16Z edgar-rft: siraben: you mean libraries for cooking food?
2020-08-20T05:43:32Z siraben: Hm?
2020-08-20T05:43:42Z siraben: I mean like, Haskell has the lens library for compositional data accessors.
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2020-08-20T06:11:57Z edgar-rft: siraben: I was more thinking like lentil soup made from lens culinaris.
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2020-08-20T06:23:30Z aeth: Mirrors are better than lenses when you want to have a very large telescope.
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2020-08-20T06:29:51Z siraben: For real, though. Or do Scheme programmers not use optics?
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2020-08-20T06:43:27Z aeth: siraben: is this the thing in Haskell that you're talking about? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-4.19.2/docs/Control-Lens-Lens.html
2020-08-20T06:44:55Z siraben: aeth:  yes.
2020-08-20T06:45:16Z siraben: Put simply, they're compositional getters and setters.
2020-08-20T06:47:05Z edgar-rft is cooking aeth's telescope into a soup right now
2020-08-20T06:50:11Z aeth: siraben: I'm almost certainly missing something by not knowing the Haskell type system, but they kind of sound like boxes... https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-111/srfi-111.html
2020-08-20T06:50:21Z aeth: The 1 2 3 rules
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2020-08-20T07:13:41Z wasamasa: they're basically like setf
2020-08-20T07:14:55Z aeth: so SRFI 17 then? https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-17/srfi-17.html
2020-08-20T07:15:52Z aeth: or maybe a bit of both?
2020-08-20T07:18:01Z wasamasa: no mutability :>
2020-08-20T07:18:11Z wasamasa: you'd just return a new data structure with the bit changed
2020-08-20T07:20:34Z aeth: so it is more like SRFI 111 then :-p
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2020-08-20T07:23:17Z wasamasa: what part about "no mutability" did you not understand
2020-08-20T07:23:54Z wasamasa: ideally you'd have something like get-in/assoc-in/update-in as in clojure
2020-08-20T07:24:14Z wasamasa: but unfortunately scheme isn't as homogenous and predictable in terms of data structures as clojure for that to work
2020-08-20T07:24:44Z aeth: wasamasa: "like SRFI 111" as in actually read through SRFI 111 and see "Racket and Chicken provide immutable boxes, which look like boxes to box? and unbox but which cannot be mutated. They are not considered useful enough to be part of this SRFI. If they are provided nevertheless, the recommended constructor name is immutable-box."
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2020-08-20T07:25:01Z aeth: But beyond that probably quite a few other procedures would need to be provided to get an algebra, if that's even possible.
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2020-08-20T07:26:01Z aeth: At least Chicken calls this SRFI 111 box a box-mutable? because it looks like Racket just calls them box? and makes no distinction between mboxes and iboxes
2020-08-20T07:28:20Z aeth: Looks like it's an (and/c box? immutable?) according to https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/boxes.html
2020-08-20T07:28:28Z wasamasa: that api doesn't look useful to me at all
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2020-08-20T07:28:56Z aeth: wasamasa: nope, it's the least common denominator that can pass a SRFI and it's trivial to implement, but it doesn't look like it offers much
2020-08-20T07:29:16Z aeth: These also exist: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-161/srfi-161.html https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-195/srfi-195.html
2020-08-20T07:29:52Z aeth: No standard immutable boxes yet
2020-08-20T07:30:10Z aeth: Let alone this, if immutable boxes could meet these requirements. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-4.19.2/docs/Control-Lens-Lens.html
2020-08-20T07:30:24Z aeth: Note that this is only talking about standard SRFIs, though.
2020-08-20T07:30:51Z wasamasa: the idea is that given something like ((1 2) (x 4)) you can convert that easily into ((1 2) (3 4) just by specifying that you dig into the second, then first element of the list
2020-08-20T07:31:23Z wasamasa: so like (setf (cadr (car thing)) 3) without the mutation part
2020-08-20T07:31:59Z aeth: That can work strictly for lists in a bunch of different ways. Just for lists, though.
2020-08-20T07:32:02Z wasamasa: clojure equivalent would be (assoc-in thing [1 0] 3)
2020-08-20T07:32:16Z wasamasa: yes and you'd want it to work on any interesting data structure, not merely boxes
2020-08-20T07:33:28Z wasamasa: functional setting they call it
2020-08-20T07:34:29Z aeth: sounds impossible because there is (afaik) no generic deep copy, let alone a generic deep copy with substitution, at least that I know of
2020-08-20T07:34:43Z aeth: although perhaps you could argue that your list example is just a recursive shallow copy
2020-08-20T07:34:54Z wasamasa: I think that's it indeed
2020-08-20T07:35:20Z wasamasa: in the face of immutability, shallow copies are plenty :>
2020-08-20T07:37:48Z aeth: I mean, the thing is, *I* could probably think of a way to add lenses to Airship Scheme
2020-08-20T07:37:53Z aeth: maybe I should set up a Patreon
2020-08-20T07:38:38Z wasamasa: the funkier things there are the update operations, where you access some nested location and apply a function/operator to it
2020-08-20T07:38:53Z wasamasa: that already exists up to a certain degree in CL
2020-08-20T07:39:11Z wasamasa: incf/decf/callf/callf2/...
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2020-08-20T07:41:12Z aeth: define-modify-macro, but you don't want a modify macro, you want a name like define-functional-substitution-macro, where it's (1) a substitution (so an elaborate almost-copy) and (2) taking in a function like a modify macro but not modifying
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2020-08-20T07:42:17Z aeth: I'm not sure about CLOS, but for the rest of CL this whole thing would be totally doable because you'd just go through each data structure that's built-in and write your rules.
2020-08-20T07:43:52Z mdhughes: Maybe I'm a caveman, but why wouldn't you just use a vector or record to hold your possibly-mutable state?
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2020-08-20T07:44:28Z mdhughes: I tried reading that Lens page & blog post, and it was like having a stroke. Is there an application in there somewhere?
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2020-08-20T07:44:51Z aeth: It's... not an introduction. It looks like a very information-dense reference.
2020-08-20T07:44:59Z aeth: The next result is this: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Lenses_and_functional_references
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2020-08-20T07:48:57Z aeth: But I don't think anyone can really answer the question unless they know both Scheme and Haskell well.
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2020-08-20T07:50:13Z wasamasa: lol: https://github.com/fumieval/xml-lens#example
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2020-08-20T07:51:49Z rudybot: la la la
2020-08-20T07:51:56Z wasamasa: the syntax does indeed look as if someone had a stroke
2020-08-20T07:52:07Z mdhughes: What it looks like is unwrapping (foo (bar (baz x) y) z) chains, but those aren't hard to unwrap in a little λ
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2020-08-20T07:53:43Z wasamasa: that's just how haskell people roll generally
2020-08-20T07:53:47Z siraben: mdhughes:  Perhaps using macros would be a good fit for lenses.
2020-08-20T07:54:00Z wasamasa: yes, a functional setf might work :P
2020-08-20T07:54:01Z siraben: ((compose foo bar baz) x)
2020-08-20T07:54:20Z siraben: setf? isn't that a CL thing?
2020-08-20T07:54:29Z wasamasa: generalized set! is also a thing
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2020-08-20T07:55:12Z wasamasa: see srfi-17
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2020-08-20T08:02:01Z siraben: Ah, so this is kind of like lenses. You can have a "focus" like the (vector-ref x i) part, and set it.
2020-08-20T08:02:39Z wasamasa: or use that focus to map over a data structure
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2020-08-20T08:06:26Z aeth: almost every CL concept exists in at least one Scheme in some variation, probably simplified and almost certainly with a Schemier API
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2020-08-20T08:06:41Z aeth: (and, yeah, in that case SRFI 17)
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2020-08-20T08:12:27Z siraben: wasamasa:  Right.
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2020-08-20T08:30:06Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-08-20T09:07:11Z siraben: rudybot: what's a good optics library for scheme
2020-08-20T09:07:17Z rudybot: siraben: scheme could use a good optics library, well-integrated with records and things
2020-08-20T09:07:25Z siraben: exactement
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2020-08-20T11:15:51Z arew: the xml-lens things looks much like sxpath
2020-08-20T11:16:03Z arew: which are combinators
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2020-08-20T11:50:37Z jcowan: I read a book once where one of the characters tried to make a fire with a lentil
2020-08-20T11:50:54Z jcowan: obvs the translator wasn't very good
2020-08-20T11:51:28Z jcowan: Verne has not been served well by his translators until very recent times
2020-08-20T11:52:03Z jcowan: As for SRFI 111, in my view the whole point of boxes is to introduce a single point of mutability into a data structure, like ML refs.
2020-08-20T11:52:13Z jcowan: How is an immutable box with a 7 in it really different from 7 itself?
2020-08-20T11:58:34Z arew: depends whether 7 is still in the box after you stop looking at it ;)
2020-08-20T11:58:53Z arew: oh _immutable_ box!
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2020-08-20T12:00:40Z wasamasa: yeah, I don't really see any use for them
2020-08-20T12:00:49Z wasamasa: even given the box unification srfi
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2020-08-20T13:36:07Z ggole: It's a 7 with an identity.
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2020-08-20T13:47:23Z Riastradh: jcowan: Was that book Ezekiel, around verse 4:9?
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2020-08-20T13:49:21Z Riastradh: Oh wait, no, there the lentils (and beans and wheat and barley and millet and spelt) were used as the ingredients to make _bread_, which was then cooked over a fire of, heh.  (I'll skip the spoiler here and let you find for yourself what a crazy story this is.)
2020-08-20T13:50:48Z jcowan: ggole: True.  But that is particular to things without identities, which are typically limited to fixnums and characters.  So 7 was a bad choice.  Rephrasing: I don't see any useful distinction between (box (cons 1 2)) and (cons 1 2).
2020-08-20T13:51:07Z jcowan: where box is immutable
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2020-08-20T13:53:08Z ggole: Yeah, in Scheme there isn't much point.
2020-08-20T13:55:30Z ggole: In SML ref unit is occasionally used to represent unique values, which is about the only application of that I can think of.
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2020-08-20T13:56:19Z yur3i__: Yo I started reading 'Lisp in Small Pieces' the other day but ran
2020-08-20T13:56:19Z yur3i__: 	  into a couple of functions I can't find any reference to in the
2020-08-20T13:56:19Z yur3i__: 	  scheme spec, `invoke` and `eprogn`, anyone know what they're for?
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2020-08-20T13:59:31Z yur3i__: acc nvm
2020-08-20T13:59:36Z ggole: Aren't those defined within the text?
2020-08-20T13:59:41Z yur3i__: Yh
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2020-08-20T14:05:03Z jcowan: My favorite unique objects are produced by (string-copy "descriptive name")
2020-08-20T14:05:31Z jcowan: It's humanly distinctive and also different in the sense of eqv? from any other object.
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2020-08-20T17:08:37Z lisbeths: https://imgur.com/a/Tcy1TBj - radical scheme infographic
2020-08-20T17:08:47Z lisbeths: please save my infographic I spent four hours on it
2020-08-20T17:08:49Z lisbeths: I stole much of the art
2020-08-20T17:10:10Z Zipheir: lisbeths: Well, copied from a source that makes it freely usable. :)
2020-08-20T17:11:48Z Zipheir: lisbeths: I can see you put a lot of effort into it.  Perhaps you could make another row for "traditional notation", instead of including it as Scheme comments.
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2020-08-20T17:13:25Z mason: I really want to find a source image for the SICP cover picture.
2020-08-20T17:13:36Z mason: Surely they used an image and the file exists somewhere.
2020-08-20T17:13:41Z Riastradh: Have you tried emailing the authors?
2020-08-20T17:13:52Z mason: I might have emailed Hal. Checking.
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2020-08-20T17:15:54Z mason: Hm, but I can't find that, so maybe I should do that. Thanks for the fix. :)
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2020-08-20T17:25:03Z lisbeths: i think it would be better to vectorize it
2020-08-20T17:25:11Z lisbeths: it may as well be vectorized
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2020-08-20T17:42:44Z arew: I am the proud owner of https://schemers.best for one year! What could I do with that domain?
2020-08-20T17:42:57Z arew: it was offered by my registar.
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2020-08-20T17:51:47Z mason: lisbeths: My hope is that that's what they started with.
2020-08-20T17:54:20Z gwatt: arew: you can blog about common lisp
2020-08-20T17:54:50Z erkin: ayy
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2020-08-20T18:00:13Z arew: meh
2020-08-20T18:02:09Z Zipheir laughs.
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2020-08-20T18:06:13Z arew: Blogging about scheme is difficult.
2020-08-20T18:06:30Z arew: a feed aggregator would be useless.
2020-08-20T18:06:43Z arew: because there is not much scheme blogs around.
2020-08-20T18:07:07Z wasamasa: I write about scheme like once a year :D
2020-08-20T18:07:20Z wasamasa: now convince everyone else to do the same and you might get a scheme post every month
2020-08-20T18:07:34Z arew: where do you twelve schemers?
2020-08-20T18:08:02Z arew: where do you find twelve schemers?
2020-08-20T18:08:13Z wasamasa: well, there's plenty in here
2020-08-20T18:08:37Z arew: they prefer to code :]
2020-08-20T18:13:05Z Zipheir: Team blogs are hard.
2020-08-20T18:13:17Z wasamasa: yup
2020-08-20T18:13:29Z wasamasa: I wrote one or two things for the work blog and was among the most active :D
2020-08-20T18:13:36Z wasamasa: then I switched employers
2020-08-20T18:13:54Z wasamasa: I've checked again and it's not the boss writing blog posts :D
2020-08-20T18:13:56Z wasamasa: *now
2020-08-20T18:16:58Z Zipheir: arew: I'm thinking that this might be a lot of work, but maybe useful: A BBS for Scheme discussion.
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2020-08-20T18:20:58Z wasamasa: 4chan did it already in mit-scheme
2020-08-20T18:23:47Z wasamasa: https://textboard.org/
2020-08-20T18:24:48Z wasamasa: seems their instance is swimming belly up
2020-08-20T18:28:22Z Zipheir: I'm not seeing the usefulness of anonymous, history-less message boards.
2020-08-20T18:28:49Z wasamasa: I feel like I've had that discussion before
2020-08-20T18:30:05Z Zipheir: (And by "anonymous", I mean BBSs which do not have any means of indicating who posted what.)
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2020-08-20T18:33:51Z gwatt: There's always comp.lang.scheme
2020-08-20T18:34:35Z wasamasa: lol
2020-08-20T18:34:43Z wasamasa: that's like saying "There's always gavino"
2020-08-20T18:35:05Z gwatt: who or what is gavino?
2020-08-20T18:35:56Z wasamasa: a troll on comp.lang.scheme and comp.lang.lisp who keeps asking the darndest questions about why scheme hasn't reached world domination yet (currently he suggests you'd need pure-scheme databases, web frameworks and so on rivaling the stuff you'd normally use in production)
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2020-08-20T18:37:01Z gwatt: ah
2020-08-20T18:38:11Z jcowan: You only actually need 10 Schemers for a minyan^Waggregator
2020-08-20T18:39:51Z erkin: wasamasa: Do enough people bite the bait to keep him entertained?
2020-08-20T18:39:57Z wasamasa: nah
2020-08-20T18:40:03Z wasamasa: usually there's zero responses
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2020-08-20T18:40:10Z erkin: Heh
2020-08-20T18:40:30Z wasamasa: but I remember one thread where gavino revealed his weak programming skill, couldn't even finish a program to calculate tax
2020-08-20T18:41:10Z arew: I replied once, I did not know it was a troll
2020-08-20T18:41:58Z arew: by the way gavino is gone from scheme newsgroup, but there is another more elaborate troll on comp.lang.lisp that make it look like there is activity on the newsgroup...
2020-08-20T18:47:22Z Zipheir: It's 2020, and a lot of the world's computation discussion has been vacuumed up into the reddit/Facebook/what-have-you silos.
2020-08-20T18:52:49Z jcowan: Along with, fortunately, a huge amount of trash the remnant of us don't have to deal with.
2020-08-20T18:52:52Z Zipheir: The first post on any new Scheme discussion project would likely be "Why isn't this on Discord?"
2020-08-20T18:53:04Z Zipheir: Very true.
2020-08-20T18:53:47Z jcowan: Though actually the "remnant" may be larger than before.  There are more {campus activists,community organizers,radio hams} than ever.
2020-08-20T18:54:14Z arew: they decide.
2020-08-20T18:55:42Z jcowan: eh?
2020-08-20T18:56:20Z arew: they are more of them, so their voice is more powerful.
2020-08-20T18:59:14Z Zipheir: arew: In what context?
2020-08-20T19:00:01Z Zipheir: arew: There's no cosmic ranking of programming communities by importance, AFAIK.
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2020-08-20T19:01:34Z Zipheir: (If there is, it seems reasonable to assume that Earth's communities are very low on it.)
2020-08-20T19:09:08Z jcowan: The voice of Facebook is only powerful if you listen (or if the howling mobs are approaching)
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2020-08-20T20:50:25Z aeth: wasamasa: that's a good question though
2020-08-20T20:50:35Z aeth: jcowan: Why hasn't Scheme reached world domination yet?
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2020-08-20T20:52:19Z jcowan: Oh, many reasons.  Lots of irritating silly parentheses The Curse of Lisp. The fact that none of the prominent Schemers have been world-dominator types.
2020-08-20T20:53:08Z pinoaffe: Zipheir: if https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-7qFAuFGao is to be believed, LISP should be fairly high on that list :)
2020-08-20T20:54:27Z aeth: jcowan: It has never been easier, though. All you need to do is buy a Linux OEM (there are a few of those... I think the main one is currently System76) and get them to switch to your Scheme-oriented Linux distro.
2020-08-20T20:54:54Z ecraven: guix-sd!
2020-08-20T20:54:55Z aeth: Someone with the right connections probably could get the funding to do so.
2020-08-20T20:55:12Z aeth: ecraven: I don't think Guix would be a good choice because it's a GNU-purist distro so it doesn't easily run on real hardware. :-p
2020-08-20T20:55:35Z pinoaffe: aeth: with something like system76 that shouldn't be much of an issue
2020-08-20T20:55:44Z aeth: You could probably fork Guix to add back in the not-purist-enough bits of Nix that GUix removes if you wanted a Scheme distro, though
2020-08-20T20:55:55Z ecraven: aeth: people in #guile will probably contest that ;)
2020-08-20T20:55:58Z aeth: s/GUix/Guix/
2020-08-20T20:56:05Z aeth: pinoaffe: GPUs.
2020-08-20T20:56:41Z aeth: System76 should let you avoid blobs for most of the stuff, but GPUs are a duopoly so they can require firmware blobs and get away with it. And Nvidia goes further than that.
2020-08-20T20:56:49Z pinoaffe: aeth: see https://gitlab.com/nonguix/nonguix
2020-08-20T20:57:04Z pinoaffe: aight, GPUs might indeed be an issue
2020-08-20T20:57:58Z pinoaffe: but I don't think putting guix on consumer laptops would be a good idea, even though I'm a huge guix fan :)
2020-08-20T20:58:07Z aeth: heh
2020-08-20T21:00:02Z aeth: System76 would probably be the way to go if they ever offer a decent all-AMD laptop. Right now the laptops are Intel-only or Intel+Nvidia (even though their desktops aren't). But Dell takes too much Intel bribe money to offer an all-AMD laptop so if I had to get a new laptop, I wouldn't get the "XPS Developer Edition" because that's just Intel and Intel won't be able to ship a competitive CPU for at least 3 years.
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2020-08-20T21:00:54Z aeth: (Intel's competitive gaming desktop CPUs are irrelevant in laptops because the thermals won't handle those kinds of CPUs, which are effectively stock-overclocked.)
2020-08-20T21:01:46Z aeth: Now, as to whether or not Guix (which is pretty unusual) would work as a replacement distro out of the box is another, separate issue.
2020-08-20T21:02:22Z aeth: But "world domination" as in vertical integration of software+hardware (rather than market share!) is definitely very possible.
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2020-08-20T21:12:32Z jcowan: Only if you can achieve lock-in, as Apple has.
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2020-08-20T21:25:52Z aeth: if you tried to achieve lock-in then RMS would just clone whatever functionality you added and give it to your main LispM competitor
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2020-08-20T21:32:07Z erkin: hahah
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2020-08-20T21:45:16Z autumn[m]: I'm pretty sure I was looking at things once and system76 seemed to get some sorta uh, sketchy, reviews in terms of "actually making hardware that doesn't glitch out and fall apart" or something like that
2020-08-20T21:46:24Z aeth: autumn[m]: Desktop or laptop? Afaik, they make their own desktops, but they just rebrand laptops (but they do things like remove Intel's IME), but I think they're changing with laptops soon, if not already.
2020-08-20T21:46:47Z autumn[m]:  Laptop
2020-08-20T21:47:11Z autumn[m]: ... and I don't remember whose or which reviews I was looking at.
2020-08-20T21:47:33Z aeth: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22668067
2020-08-20T21:47:38Z autumn[m]: Buuuut I also haven't actually gotten a new laptop in like, ever!
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2020-08-20T21:48:29Z autumn[m]: Was just window shopping. >.>
2020-08-20T21:48:58Z aeth: So as of 5 months ago if HN comments are accurate, they (1) just rebrand Clevo laptops, but (2) they build their own desktops and (3) they are going to be building their own laptops
2020-08-20T21:49:11Z aeth: (that's not the only comment where I saw that, that's just the first one I could get to)
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2020-08-20T21:49:34Z aeth: The desktops seem nice, but overpriced (each step up costs more than the component itself costs), and I don't think there'd be a reason to get them unless you want the form factor.
2020-08-20T21:49:43Z aeth: Laptops, you don't really have a choice but to buy from an OEM
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2020-08-20T21:50:28Z autumn[m]: Fair! I was under the impression they did just rebrand Clevo's, but it'd be sorta neat if they wound up making something with decent build quality in the future
2020-08-20T21:51:26Z aeth: And when I say "each step up costs more than the component itself costs", I really mean it. For CPU and RAM, each component *adds to the base* more than the component costs. https://system76.com/desktops/thelio-r1/configure
2020-08-20T21:51:51Z aeth: e.g. +$619 for a 3900X and $989 for a 3950X or +$69 for 16 GB RAM.
2020-08-20T21:52:34Z aeth: And the PCIe 4 motherboards are +$199 when they're probably only +$100 at this point.
2020-08-20T21:52:53Z aeth: Although to be fair, those additions probably reflected the prices in 2019 except for with the CPU. Things have come down in price, as they always do.
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2020-08-20T22:01:44Z aeth: What I guess happens, though, is that they probably lose money on the base model that's so basic they hope no one buys it, but gives them an entry level marketing number. And that's why it adds so much to upgrade the parts.
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2020-08-20T22:38:13Z arew: the amd thread reaper is up to 128 threads, three times as much as my current dedicated server. Also pricey. The setup I tried is almost $10k
2020-08-20T22:38:50Z arew: s76 seems like only highend dekstop, the most pricey desktop I buyed is $1k
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2020-08-20T22:41:34Z aeth: $1k is... very doable for mid-ranged at this point as long as you don't want a fancy GPU. If you want a fancy GPU, it could literally double the cost of such a machine. Thanks, Nvidia.
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2020-08-20T22:43:14Z aeth: The actual 64c128t Threadripper 3990X is just $3990, but, yeah, at that kind of price, buying it from any OEM probably starts around $10k...
2020-08-20T22:43:18Z arew: wow, the server I just setup is $33k
2020-08-20T22:43:33Z aeth: Yes, AMD is that much more of a value than Intel.
2020-08-20T22:43:55Z aeth: Their server brand is Epyc, though
2020-08-20T22:44:21Z arew: with 112 threads
2020-08-20T22:44:33Z arew: only 112.
2020-08-20T22:44:51Z aeth: 128 thread Epyc will cost you $4000-$7000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epyc#Second_generation_Epyc_(Rome)
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2020-08-20T22:45:07Z arew: they do not have the threadripper on server config?
2020-08-20T22:45:17Z aeth: Probably, but Threadripper is designed for workstations as a brand.
2020-08-20T22:46:35Z aeth: 2x 64 core 128 thread (so 128 core 256 thread) Epyc is going to be $12000-$14000 just for the CPUs. But totally doable if your budget is $33k, I guess.
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2020-08-20T22:50:00Z arew: I just copied the configuration of my current dedicated server (without the cpu ghz precision) it cost $10k, at the current price of the dedicated server it would take 3 years to get back my money.
2020-08-20T22:50:13Z arew: the dedicated serveur is $200 per month
2020-08-20T22:50:59Z arew: I do not have that kind of budget!
2020-08-20T22:51:55Z arew: anyway, for the time being my server is enough, I just need to grow some money to conquer the world with parentheses ;)
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2020-08-20T22:52:15Z arew: especially since the server does nothing, as of yet.
2020-08-20T22:53:05Z arew: aeth: what is your hardware and os setup?
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2020-08-20T22:55:29Z aeth: arew: my desktop is AMD Ryzen 9 3900X 12c24t CPU / 32 GB DDR4-3200 RAM / Nvidia GeForce 1080 GPU / 1 TB SATA SSD + 4 TB HDD
2020-08-20T22:55:53Z aeth: I also have an XPS laptop from 2017 and several Raspberry Pi
2020-08-20T22:56:02Z arew: what do you do with the gpu?
2020-08-20T22:56:16Z aeth: Just game/gamedev stuff
2020-08-20T22:56:18Z arew: I disabled the nvidia gpu on my ideapad i330
2020-08-20T22:56:23Z arew: ok
2020-08-20T22:56:37Z arew: I am thinking to move to raspberry pi when they have usb3
2020-08-20T22:56:40Z aeth: On my laptop, I made sure not to get a discrete Nvidia GPU because those are problematic in laptops afaik
2020-08-20T22:56:47Z arew: yep
2020-08-20T22:56:53Z aeth: I think the power saving mode where it switches to the integrated GPU isn't functional or something
2020-08-20T22:57:05Z arew: it works on my laptop
2020-08-20T22:57:09Z aeth: For OS, I use Fedora 32.
2020-08-20T22:57:19Z arew: nvidia gpu is disabled in the bios
2020-08-20T22:57:30Z aeth: (Fedora 32 64-bit. Great name!)
2020-08-20T22:58:44Z arew: great name?
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2020-08-20T22:58:53Z aeth: It's "Fedora 32", but 64 bit
2020-08-20T22:58:54Z arew: raspberry 4 has both usb-c and usb3
2020-08-20T22:58:58Z arew: ah!
2020-08-20T22:59:01Z arew: fun :)
2020-08-20T22:59:13Z aeth: Anyway, I don't use CUDA so I'll probably be able to use the next gen AMD when it comes out, if it's worth buying.
2020-08-20T22:59:32Z aeth: In 2016, Nvidia (and its proprietary driver) was still pretty much the only option
2020-08-20T23:01:15Z arew: what do you do wiht raspberries?
2020-08-20T23:01:28Z aeth: this
2020-08-20T23:01:54Z arew: I stopped looking for the powerful workstation since I do not use much power anyway. My most hungry game is factorio
2020-08-20T23:01:55Z aeth: No reason to run IRC on another machine when a Pi is normally good enough.
2020-08-20T23:02:36Z arew: true
2020-08-20T23:02:59Z aeth: The 3900X is an amazing machine for compiling C/C++
2020-08-20T23:03:04Z aeth: Most things aren't that parallel yet, though
2020-08-20T23:03:41Z aeth: I think some newer games are using the 3900X to close to its full potential, though.
2020-08-20T23:04:04Z arew: speaking of parallel, I can scan / search the whole common crawl dataset in a day apparantly.
2020-08-20T23:04:05Z aeth: It's a bit surprising that it only took about a year, but I guess there were actually a few years since 8 core and 8->12 isn't that much of a difference when programming as 4->8.
2020-08-20T23:04:34Z arew: for a search engine, it makes a great difference.
2020-08-20T23:04:41Z arew: any thread is good to take
2020-08-20T23:04:56Z aeth: Is that what your server is for?
2020-08-20T23:05:05Z arew: yeah
2020-08-20T23:05:17Z arew: I was / am supposed to build a search engine.
2020-08-20T23:06:12Z arew: then I figured, the search engine is a long shot somewhat, especially the crawler in fact. But it always a never ending story because I figured I could improve the query part too
2020-08-20T23:06:32Z arew: so I pivot somewhat to scan the common crawl dataset.
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2020-08-20T23:06:52Z arew: apparantly it is 10 times faster than cpython.
2020-08-20T23:07:01Z aeth: Well, next year or so you will probably be able to get a 128 core AMD CPU. Dual socket would make that 256 core / 512 thread, if they don't do 4-way SMT on the server CPUs like IBM does with POWER.
2020-08-20T23:07:07Z arew: I hope to build a saas with it.
2020-08-20T23:07:29Z arew: I do not have the money to buy those :/
2020-08-20T23:07:50Z arew: but I understand next time I will buy amd
2020-08-20T23:08:06Z arew: oh no. raspberry is not amd amirite?
2020-08-20T23:08:16Z aeth: ARM. So it's soon to be Nvidia :-)
2020-08-20T23:08:21Z arew: erf
2020-08-20T23:08:27Z arew: hope they move to riscv
2020-08-20T23:08:46Z aeth: I've been waiting for https://www.lowrisc.org/ to come out since 2017. I think they've stopped promising a release date.
2020-08-20T23:09:31Z arew: is it a soc?
2020-08-20T23:09:57Z aeth: I don't think it will come with a GPU, though
2020-08-20T23:10:08Z aeth: GPUs are much harder to make than CPUs
2020-08-20T23:10:27Z arew: oh
2020-08-20T23:10:39Z arew: Is it a System on Chip like rasp?
2020-08-20T23:10:42Z aeth: Of course, if money doesn't matter, you can probably just have a 1024 thread machine and not care about only being about as efficient as a GPU 3-5 years ago.
2020-08-20T23:10:49Z aeth: (not from them, of course)
2020-08-20T23:10:58Z arew: ?
2020-08-20T23:11:16Z aeth: I'm just saying that a CPU with enough threads and SIMD doesn't need a GPU at all to do graphics.
2020-08-20T23:11:22Z aeth: It just won't be as efficient.
2020-08-20T23:12:29Z arew: I do not think multiple cores can compete with gpu, but I am not an expert.
2020-08-20T23:13:26Z aeth: A current-gen, current-process CPU won't compete with a current-gen, current-process GPU, but it'll be much better than a GPU from 10 years ago if it has enough threads and SIMD.
2020-08-20T23:13:57Z aeth: The "enough threads" part is the catch, though, because that means you're paying way more for way less since those are very high end CPUs.
2020-08-20T23:14:05Z arew: prolly
2020-08-20T23:15:25Z aeth: but, yeah, to be a bit more on topic, lowrisc is a SoC without a GPU last I saw, although I haven't kept up with it with so many multi-year delays
2020-08-20T23:16:13Z aeth: arew: what are you using that's 10x faster than Python?
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2020-08-20T23:27:09Z arew: chez :)
2020-08-20T23:36:19Z aeth: ah
2020-08-20T23:36:24Z aeth: Is it written portably?
2020-08-20T23:36:37Z arew: r7rs
2020-08-20T23:36:44Z aeth: ah
2020-08-20T23:36:46Z arew: I think
2020-08-20T23:36:49Z aeth: which SRFIs?
2020-08-20T23:36:55Z arew: but requires a lot of srfi iirc
2020-08-20T23:37:16Z aeth: I need the SRFI list, for reasons.
2020-08-20T23:38:02Z arew: actually: base char comparator hash-table, possibly fixnum
2020-08-20T23:38:17Z arew: generator and list
2020-08-20T23:38:41Z arew: not much, those are the one I use all the tim
2020-08-20T23:38:46Z aeth: Schemers don't work in comprehensible words, they work in numbers!
2020-08-20T23:40:23Z aeth: arew: which hash tables?
2020-08-20T23:40:28Z aeth: The rest are unambiguous
2020-08-20T23:40:49Z aeth: 125?
2020-08-20T23:41:01Z arew: yes
2020-08-20T23:46:01Z aeth: I think that's all confirmed, voted-in R7RS-large, then
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2020-08-20T23:47:02Z arew: yep
2020-08-20T23:47:08Z arew: that is why I use the r7rs name
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2020-08-21T00:39:09Z arew: seems like ports or something are very slow
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2020-08-21T06:45:16Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-08-21T08:06:25Z amirouche: so it seems 10 times faster than python does not mean faster than C...
2020-08-21T08:06:45Z amirouche: Also it seems my ports as generator is not very fast.
2020-08-21T08:08:35Z aeth: nope, Python is anywhere from 50x to 100x slower than C
2020-08-21T08:08:49Z aeth: 10x faster than Python is a reasonable speed
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2020-08-21T08:27:31Z wasamasa: good luck with faster than C
2020-08-21T08:27:52Z wasamasa: it is possible if you understand its shortcomings, see fortran
2020-08-21T08:31:32Z aeth: as bad as C is with SIMD, most languages are worse (and C or C++ that is competitive is probably full of inline asm)
2020-08-21T08:34:18Z aeth: fortunately, "no one" supports AVX-512 yet, hardware or software, but the trend is definitely towards more and more SIMD
2020-08-21T08:34:40Z aeth: especially in the stuff you'll use to benchmark your language against C
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2020-08-21T08:41:52Z amirouche: there is cpu cache optimizations :o)
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2020-08-21T08:49:22Z wasamasa: yeah, these won't help you much in a language which is pointers first
2020-08-21T08:49:53Z wasamasa: design for a specific memory model if you want to beat C
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2020-08-21T09:11:36Z dTal: Julia is beating C these days
2020-08-21T09:12:05Z aeth: in carefully selected benchmarks
2020-08-21T09:12:11Z dTal: https://discourse.julialang.org/t/realistically-how-close-is-gaius-jl-to-becoming-a-full-replacement-for-blas-in-julia/42780/5
2020-08-21T09:12:11Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/jrcUbhHmJa
2020-08-21T09:12:24Z aeth: In large applications, C++ is still the performance king.
2020-08-21T09:12:40Z aeth: not like I'd want to write high-performance C++
2020-08-21T09:13:42Z aeth: (I'm not sure if C++ tends to beat C because C++ has more optimizations or because nobody would want to write non-generic code to the extent that you'd have to in C.)
2020-08-21T09:18:43Z dTal: I dunno... I feel like benchmarks that compare the best case of each language miss the point a little. A better test would be to give an programmer an hour in each language and see how well they do
2020-08-21T09:20:18Z dTal: because in practice, an optimization that requires a huge amount of hand-tuning is an optimization that won't be done
2020-08-21T09:23:01Z wasamasa: yes, exactly
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2020-08-21T09:23:15Z wasamasa: it's much more revealing to do common tasks and figure out why they do badly
2020-08-21T09:23:34Z aeth: dTal: Idk, I think it's more likely that it'll be an optimization done once and encapsulated into a library. Especially if it's numerical, which is what most benchmarks will be just because it's easy to benchmark.
2020-08-21T09:23:57Z aeth: to return to your link, or at least the title in it, you only need to write BLAS once
2020-08-21T09:24:09Z dTal: Yes well "only library performance matters" gets you Python :)
2020-08-21T09:24:31Z aeth: The difference is that Python will gladly force you to compile C++ or even Fortran in order to get fast code.
2020-08-21T09:24:56Z dTal: difference?
2020-08-21T09:25:25Z aeth: The difference with, say, C++
2020-08-21T09:25:38Z aeth: And even still, Python will wind up slower because of the overhead in doing FFI among other things.
2020-08-21T09:25:44Z dTal: That's what I mean, it only gets you so far
2020-08-21T09:26:30Z aeth: Yes, but if you have to write convoluted code in pure Lisp or Scheme or whatever in order to get a fast program, then that can just become a library. No compiling or FFI necessary, and no one else has to think about how hideous the internals are.
2020-08-21T09:27:18Z aeth: And at that point, if there's no FFI, there's not much of a difference between using that library and having it built-in as far as usability goes.
2020-08-21T09:27:23Z dTal: That doesn't really help you if *you're* the one who has to write it
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2020-08-21T09:27:35Z aeth: Well, yeah, this is #scheme so you're the one who has to write it.
2020-08-21T09:27:45Z aeth: But I'm talking in general. :-p
2020-08-21T09:27:50Z dTal: we seem to be talking at cross purposes :p
2020-08-21T09:29:03Z aeth: My point is, optimization in a language can be hard, but as long as it's in that language itself (I guess cheating a bit if you allow inline asm, but if it uses the same compiler it probably isn't that bad) and that language allows good enough abstractions, then built-in vs. not doesn't really matter.
2020-08-21T09:30:47Z dTal: And my point was, if optimization in a language is hard, then that's almost as bad as it being impossible; a language that gets to 98% of the speed of the best case of C, but with 5% of the work, is functionally speaking "FastThanCee"
2020-08-21T09:31:28Z aeth: In practice, you're going to see a 3x to 5x speed penalty over C.
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2020-08-21T09:31:48Z aeth: It's normally still worth it, though.
2020-08-21T09:32:01Z dTal: You mean with Scheme?
2020-08-21T09:32:08Z dTal: or with Julia?
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2020-08-21T09:42:10Z aeth: I mean, with languages that are neither C nor C++. Rust gets there, but it shares a lot of the compiler infrastructure. I guess Fortran, too.
2020-08-21T09:42:43Z aeth: Here, Julia's pretty impressive because it looks like it's consistently around twice as slow. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/q6600/which-programs-are-fastest.html
2020-08-21T09:44:09Z aeth: But not just those benchmarks, those are just easy to look up benchmarks with tons of languages. In general, languages that are pretty damn fast are still 3x slower than C/C++. Chez Scheme in that link, but I wouldn't be surprised if Chez is 3x to 5x.
2020-08-21T09:44:58Z aeth: Many of these languages in hand-selected, less-neutral benchmarks can beat C in certain things, of course.
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2020-08-21T09:49:01Z dTal: Chez is about the same as SBCL I believe
2020-08-21T09:49:12Z aeth: They'd be hard to compare directly.
2020-08-21T09:50:07Z aeth: Efficient Scheme tends to prefer namespace explosion (e.g. fx+ to fixnum add) to keep the purity of being a dynamically typed language. Efficient CL tends to prefer gradual typing with type declarations.
2020-08-21T09:50:41Z aeth: If you refuse to use type declarations, Scheme will win, but you're not being honest with yourself. If you use declarations, CL might win, but that's probably just because you can declare more (e.g. array lengths) than Scheme can infer from procedure calls.
2020-08-21T09:50:58Z aeth: (I've definitely seen benchmarkers do the former.)
2020-08-21T09:52:31Z aeth: CL also has semantics that are more problematic for optimizations because it requires implementations to permit more redefintions at runtime... it's very interactive and image-based. But you can, in implementation-specific ways, turn parts or all of this off.
2020-08-21T09:53:29Z aeth: On this last point, I wouldn't be surprised if no one uses (or turns off, when those slow things down) all of the relevant features when benchmarking SBCL. It's just inherently more manual.
2020-08-21T09:54:09Z aeth: But, I mean, it's not like C/C++ isn't similar there, that's just all done once and hidden in the Makefile
2020-08-21T09:54:21Z dTal: Well, to be fair, type declarations are extra work. I wouldn't exactly call it dishonest to put extra work into speeding up one of the two languages, just because it allows it.
2020-08-21T09:54:39Z dTal: *not put extra work
2020-08-21T09:54:57Z aeth: using fx+ instead of + is also extra work, which is why I used the example of fixnums
2020-08-21T09:55:16Z aeth: Optimizing both requires work, just different work
2020-08-21T09:55:43Z aeth: But if you put no effort into either, Scheme still might win because of the redefinition semantics of CL that are on by default.
2020-08-21T09:57:08Z aeth: I think this is why the benchmarks game idea is a pretty good one. Like a language? Put in the effort you want to. But it's actually quite problematic because a few benchmarks permit FFI iirc. Maybe a few other issues.
2020-08-21T09:57:58Z aeth: Also, (safety 0) in SBCL is essentially imo semantically broken it's so unsafe. It's basically cheat-in-benchmarks mode since you should never use it in production. But I bet most SBCL benchmarks use it, and if you do, you might beat Scheme in a comparative benchmark.
2020-08-21T09:59:35Z dTal: But that's C 100% of the time, right? :p
2020-08-21T10:00:24Z dTal: Clearly, trading safety for performance is something that people do indeed use in production, all the time.
2020-08-21T10:00:25Z aeth: I'm glad you asked. No, it's less safe than C. Unless it changed in a recent version, (safety 0) will disable compile time safety in addition to runtime safety checks. So what limited static checking it can do won't be done. You'll catch more bugs in C.
2020-08-21T10:00:41Z dTal: Oh. Wow.
2020-08-21T10:00:54Z aeth: That's why I said (safety 0) in SBCL is semantically broken. I don't think most people want this when they do it. Maybe the benchmarkers do, though, since the compile time might be part of the benchmark.
2020-08-21T10:02:33Z aeth: Of course, you can be clever about it and use LOCALLY to be "safe" about your (safety 0) placement, but you'd never want it at global or function scope
2020-08-21T10:04:12Z aeth: But, yeah, all of these words just to say that objectively benchmarking is really hard, maybe impossible, even for two extremely close languages.
2020-08-21T10:05:10Z aeth: Subjectively? Yeah, Chez seems to be in about the same ballpark of SBCL (and Java!) relative to C (on the fast end) and Python (on the slow end)
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2020-08-21T10:06:51Z aeth: Some anecdata from earlier: < arew> apparantly it is 10 times faster than cpython.
2020-08-21T10:07:07Z aeth: That would place it at around 5x slower than C. Probably can't be more precise with such things anyway.
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2020-08-21T10:17:45Z mdhughes: The difference between Chez and Julia is startup time. You can run a Chez script on a short or medium task in less time than Julia takes to start up. On long tasks, Julia starts to win again.
2020-08-21T10:18:48Z mdhughes: They keep promising next version'll reduce "time to plot" to something acceptable. Maybe they'll be right someday.
2020-08-21T10:19:13Z aeth: mdhughes: oh, yeah, when you start your benchmark is another big thing
2020-08-21T10:19:31Z aeth: That's probably why Julia is so consistently around 2x C in the benchmarks game's graph
2020-08-21T10:19:46Z mdhughes: Yeah, I only count benchmarks fair if they use `time` from the shell.
2020-08-21T10:19:47Z aeth: It's probably "faster than C" but has a fixed startup cost.
2020-08-21T10:20:19Z mdhughes: Not wait for startup, preload stuff, start a timer, do just the JIT task, end the timer.
2020-08-21T10:21:14Z aeth: Another thing I'll object to with some JITs is if it's "magically typed". LuaJIT is the particular offender I have in mind. Sure, it can beat C in some matrix multiplication microbenchmarks (excluding startup, I bet!)... but those things are so fragile. Lua's just a table, so you can probably accidentally deoptimize so easily.
2020-08-21T10:21:19Z aeth: I'd much rather have a matrix type.
2020-08-21T10:22:02Z aeth: Enforce some checking!
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2020-08-21T10:43:38Z dTal: mdhughes: time to first plot does indeed improve with every release, often as part of a general rising tide of getting faster in general; I don't think they ever broke a promise to make it "something acceptable". But it should halve again next release.
2020-08-21T10:44:04Z dTal: You can also precompile things, but it's a touch fiddly.
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2020-08-21T10:55:02Z mdhughes: Took me a bit to even get Julia 1.5 working again (had to nuke ~/.julia except config, reinstall Plots)
2020-08-21T10:55:03Z mdhughes: ./testplots.jl  16.11s user 0.50s system 100% cpu 16.469 total
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2020-08-21T16:27:48Z arew: do you think mmap can be faster than ports? I read a few things about mmap, the answer is still unclear.
2020-08-21T16:28:07Z arew: I want to read sequentially a 200Mb file
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2020-08-21T16:57:10Z jcowan: Mmap is fast because there is very little between the kernel's (rather large) buffer and you.
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2020-08-21T18:48:54Z arew: DIY philosophy seems to also be shared somewhat with C programming language.
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2020-08-21T19:02:35Z jcowan: That's true.  Both of them were written for minimalism, Scheme on purpose and C faute de mieux.
2020-08-21T19:03:30Z jcowan: C's ancestor BCPL was a much larger language
2020-08-21T19:04:29Z jcowan: (As an offshoot of my project to design a modern PDP-8, an architecture that was my first love, I am modernizing B, the *direct* ancestor of C, as it is perfect for word-oriented machines, being weakly dynamically typed, aka structured assembly language.
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2020-08-21T20:35:41Z aeth: Too bad the name C-- is already taken
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2020-08-21T20:36:20Z aeth: By Haskellers...
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2020-08-21T21:33:08Z arew: grinding throught bugs does yield a sens of achievement, commiting often helps with that but it ends up with an ugly git history
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2020-08-21T22:09:24Z arew: aeth: I reached five times slower than C code with chez and on-the-fly compilation :)
2020-08-21T22:09:50Z arew: 50s vs 9s and compilation take less than 1s
2020-08-21T22:12:42Z arew: the whole library is 320 lines but compilation alone use half of that :)
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2020-08-22T00:37:09Z mdhughes: What Scheme needs for speed is C's fread with a big buffer, that's the bottleneck in the wp benchmark.
2020-08-22T00:37:55Z mdhughes: At least in Chez. In Chicken, both strings and hashtables are slow as hell.
2020-08-22T00:38:54Z Zipheir: Which is disappointing, because CHICKEN's hashtables are mostly implemented in hairy C, and they're still slowish.
2020-08-22T00:40:42Z mdhughes: Someone with a lot of free time should compile it, read the C, and find whole-program optimizations on it, not just optimizing one lib at a time.
2020-08-22T00:45:41Z jcowan: I'd say C-- is dead, and anyway it was usually called Cminusminus, because Google wouldn't let you search for C-- those days.  So it's wide open.
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2020-08-22T00:54:12Z mdhughes: How about no language or project names you can't easily search for?
2020-08-22T00:54:25Z mdhughes: JCowansBLikeLang is a really good name.
2020-08-22T00:54:46Z bitmapper: C-- is not dead
2020-08-22T00:54:58Z bitmapper: jcowan: ghc still uses C--
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2020-08-22T00:56:23Z Zipheir: Does that backend still work?  I thought they switched to LLVM completely.
2020-08-22T00:56:35Z bitmapper: they use C-- as an ir
2020-08-22T00:56:43Z bitmapper: also they didn't switch to llvm
2020-08-22T00:56:44Z Zipheir: Aha.
2020-08-22T00:56:48Z bitmapper: they still use their native backend by default
2020-08-22T00:57:50Z Zipheir: Hmm.  In most linux distros LLVM is a hard dependency for GHC, AFAIK.
2020-08-22T00:58:47Z bitmapper: not on debian
2020-08-22T00:58:52Z bitmapper: unless you are on arm64
2020-08-22T00:58:56Z bitmapper: or arm
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2020-08-22T01:00:40Z Zipheir: bitmapper: Yes, you're right.  Huh, I thought LLVM was the default at this point.
2020-08-22T01:00:50Z bitmapper: nah, the native backend is faster
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2020-08-22T01:32:13Z aeth: oh, btw, I hate how Chicken uses "csi" because I can't install it from my Linux distro's repo because mono also has a "csi" for C# and, guess what? A handful of things for Linux are written in C# for some reason.
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2020-08-22T01:32:30Z aeth: When I was testing various Scheme behavior the other day, I was wondering why I had to install Chicken a long time ago.
2020-08-22T01:32:37Z aeth: s/had to install/had to uninstall/
2020-08-22T01:32:59Z aeth: This is pretty much the only place I've encountered a name collision, but a few others might exist.
2020-08-22T01:33:00Z bitmapper: ohahahaha
2020-08-22T01:33:00Z bitmapper: yes
2020-08-22T01:33:08Z bitmapper: i keep running scheme programs with the csharp interpreter
2020-08-22T01:33:18Z bitmapper: the best part
2020-08-22T01:33:24Z bitmapper: mono uses csc too iirc
2020-08-22T01:33:41Z aeth: hah
2020-08-22T01:33:47Z aeth: 'cs' I guess.
2020-08-22T01:34:04Z Zipheir: OpenBSD just renames to chicken-cs{c, i}
2020-08-22T01:34:06Z aeth: Sort of like how 'cl' could mean Common Lisp or OpenCL, although fortunately OpenCL isn't run on the CPU so I doubt there's a lot of 'cl'-based name collisions there
2020-08-22T01:34:19Z Zipheir: Should be mono-cs{c, i}, of course. :)
2020-08-22T01:34:58Z aeth: Zipheir: Yes, but I would definitely not expect mono programs to be well-written enough to handle that considering that Microsoft had to give "Windows 10" that name instead of "Windows 9" to avoid poorly written checks for "Windows 9x"
2020-08-22T01:35:18Z Zipheir: Hah.
2020-08-22T01:36:37Z bitmapper: mono is quite well written actually
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2020-08-22T01:52:18Z mdhughes: mono seems fine aside from being a 3rd party impl of an underspecified MS product, so it never quite works the same.
2020-08-22T01:52:42Z Zipheir remembers the Great C# FUD when MS suggested they owned everything written with Mono.
2020-08-22T01:53:24Z mdhughes: I remember when they renamed their terrible JVM impl "Cool" and then converted it into "C#".
2020-08-22T01:55:40Z bitmapper: Zipheir: yeah but that was ballmer era MS
2020-08-22T01:56:29Z aeth: I remember back when everything MS did was .NET
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2020-08-22T02:10:20Z aeth: (I mean, the brand, not the tech)
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2020-08-22T02:38:31Z mdhughes: They really overreacted to Bill Gates ignoring the Internet until '95, then published his idiotic book and said "no, we were totally on top of this!"
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2020-08-22T02:54:45Z aeth: mdhughes: maybe they overreacted, but it seems to have worked, unlike their attempt to enter smartphones equally late
2020-08-22T02:55:06Z aeth: Everyone hates IE6 because IE6 dominated the industry for years
2020-08-22T02:57:59Z Zipheir: Most of their attempts at innovating beyond the PC world were pretty lame.
2020-08-22T02:59:40Z Zipheir: (Perhaps adding "beyond the PC world" is being generous.)
2020-08-22T02:59:52Z aeth: I liked the "Metro design" on smartphones (although I'd never buy a Windows phone)
2020-08-22T03:00:07Z aeth: What was strange was when they tried to force it onto desktops (with screens that keep getting larger) with Windows 8
2020-08-22T03:00:34Z Zipheir: Indeed.  I guess you could call that the "colorforms era" of UI design.
2020-08-22T03:00:50Z aeth: But the combined app icon + widget in a large, pretty square of "metro design" looked like a decent innovation on Zune (heh, failure) and Windows phone (also failure)
2020-08-22T03:01:05Z aeth: Probably a good way to force more apps into making widgets. I haven't used an Android widget in years.
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2020-08-22T03:04:31Z Zipheir: This is funny.  Apparently Dan Friedman's disciples break with Lisp tradition and pronounce ? as "huh?".
2020-08-22T03:04:55Z Zipheir: Hence "number huh?", "symbol huh?", etc.
2020-08-22T03:06:53Z Zipheir: Will Byrd (Reasoned Schemer) and David Christiansen (Little Typer) use this pronunciation in talks they've given.
2020-08-22T03:07:07Z Zipheir: How odd.
2020-08-22T03:07:26Z aeth: Airship Scheme will not use this convention.
2020-08-22T03:10:26Z jcowan: It's not like you can stop it, any more than you can stop people from saying "Cons-Fragezeichen".
2020-08-22T03:12:14Z Zipheir: That's a mouthful.
2020-08-22T03:20:46Z mdhughes: Microsoft has never innovated, they just squat on a property and then stop all progress. That's literally their entire business.
2020-08-22T03:22:17Z mdhughes: I pronounce foo? as foo-p, even tho I haven't touched LISP since the '80s.
2020-08-22T03:23:01Z Zipheir: Scheme ⊂ LISP
2020-08-22T03:23:17Z Zipheir: And yes, foo-p.
2020-08-22T03:23:37Z autumn[m]: foop
2020-08-22T03:23:42Z autumn[m]:  (... I am sorry for this)
2020-08-22T03:23:58Z Zipheir: Yeah, I immediately thought "foop", too.
2020-08-22T03:24:31Z mdhughes: "foop" works for vowel-endings, but then "symbol?" would be "sym-bollup"? Nope.
2020-08-22T03:24:54Z Zipheir: "Split-p soup?"  http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/p-convention.html
2020-08-22T03:25:37Z autumn[m]: ./giggles! >.>
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2020-08-22T09:24:12Z arew: file-generator/mmap is slower than using ports
2020-08-22T09:33:58Z arew: ah! With some microbenchmarks that do not involve parsing or ports, Chez is faster than C :)
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2020-08-22T09:48:59Z arew: with different algorithm
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2020-08-22T16:35:19Z wasamasa: arew: I wonder how many microbenchmarks use shoddily written C
2020-08-22T16:35:42Z wasamasa: arew: if you're not making an effort of writing fast code for all participating languages, eh
2020-08-22T16:38:29Z arew: I am benchmarking a Python library written in C, the scheme code is my code. Also, the algorithm in Scheme is different from the algorithm used in the C library.
2020-08-22T16:38:43Z wasamasa: lol, so forget about fair comparisons
2020-08-22T16:39:02Z arew: it is the fastest python library, I looked at other c libraries that do "aho-corasick" algorithm, I could not make them work.
2020-08-22T16:39:07Z arew: why?
2020-08-22T16:40:17Z wasamasa: you're comparing apples and bananas, as opposed to fast and slow apples
2020-08-22T16:40:45Z wasamasa: keep the amount of variables low when comparing
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2020-08-22T16:41:03Z arew: wasamasa: I am trying to figure if i will rewrite the algorithm in C or just rely on Scheme.
2020-08-22T16:41:26Z arew: At the moment, Chez is two times slower than the other library, but the problem is with utf8 decoding apparantly
2020-08-22T16:43:04Z arew: the algorithm is almost the same... it should not matter :)
2020-08-22T16:53:25Z arew: it is even better with synthetic benchmarks, Chez is 4.46 times faster than the C code wrapped in Python, and versus the same algorithm in Python it is ... 44 times faster x')
2020-08-22T16:54:16Z arew: that is without chez's --optimize-level 3 ;)
2020-08-22T16:55:09Z arew: with full optimization 7 times faster than C, and 70 times faster than Python.
2020-08-22T16:56:16Z arew: but again, that is not the full program. The full program needs to read a web archive file (warc) some kind of textual format for archiving web pages, and it seems like Chez is struggling with decoding utf8
2020-08-22T16:59:03Z arew: I will release the code soon (tm)
2020-08-22T16:59:36Z arew: except the utf8 decoding procedure, it is all portable.
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2020-08-22T17:17:38Z Zipheir: arew: Why do you need it to be faster?
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2020-08-22T17:21:45Z arew: Zipheir: because otherwise it takes a lot of time, at the moment, with the current perf using chez, the whole process would take 26 days
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2020-08-22T17:24:52Z Zipheir: arew: Have you analyzed the complexity of the algorithm?
2020-08-22T17:30:36Z arew: no
2020-08-22T17:31:32Z arew: the thing the complexity depends on is small.
2020-08-22T17:32:21Z arew: an I tried with big number, the problem is not the algorihtm
2020-08-22T17:32:34Z arew: s/an/and/
2020-08-22T17:32:42Z arew: s/number/numbers/
2020-08-22T17:33:55Z arew: one last trick, avoid utf8 decoding.
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2020-08-22T17:47:03Z Zipheir: arew: There must be some algorithm in their which is inefficient.
2020-08-22T17:47:08Z Zipheir: s/their/there
2020-08-22T17:48:17Z arew: necessarly, the only difference with the other microbenchmark is the heavy use of generators.
2020-08-22T17:48:51Z arew: instead of ports
2020-08-22T17:49:52Z Zipheir: Pehaps ports are optimized.
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2020-08-22T17:50:42Z Zipheir: (This is the awful thing about "optimizing" everything.  No-one actually knows what algorithms are used in the stuff they use most.)
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2020-08-22T17:52:10Z arew: When I started, I was under the impression that ports were the problem, but I did several benchmarks and they are better than cffi for instance.
2020-08-22T17:52:43Z arew: maybe it is related to the caching / buffering.
2020-08-22T17:53:08Z arew: generator + buffer vs. ports, ports are faster.
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2020-08-23T14:16:44Z arew: My benchmarks were wrong, C bindings are 1.20 times faster than Scheme. Stil, the complete program is 2 times slower, so there is something to optimize.
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2020-08-23T15:32:09Z arew: can allocation have performance impact? at the moment here is the stats for the procedure I want to optimize: 20.279824476s elapsed real time, including 0.296135902s collecting 107293360096 bytes allocated
2020-08-23T15:32:21Z wasamasa: sure
2020-08-23T15:32:32Z wasamasa: those garbage collections take time :D
2020-08-23T15:32:52Z arew: collection does seems to take a lot of time, but there is a lot that is allocated: 107Gb
2020-08-23T15:33:43Z arew: the original file size is 500Gb
2020-08-23T15:33:53Z arew: the original file size is 0.5Gb
2020-08-23T15:33:58Z arew: s/500/0.5/
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2020-08-23T15:42:36Z Zipheir: That seems like a lot.
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2020-08-23T16:36:56Z mdhughes: Has anyone used Kawa, and knows how to enable a history file?
2020-08-23T16:45:04Z wasamasa: doesn't seem to be documented
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2020-08-23T16:47:17Z mdhughes: Exactly. .kawarc.scm works, and other jline programs have history, but I dunno how.
2020-08-23T16:47:58Z mdhughes: Ugh, reading other peoples' code may be in my future.
2020-08-23T16:48:15Z wasamasa: dunno, I find it great to have the option
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2020-08-23T16:51:34Z wasamasa: anyway, I wrote something in kawa that enables a history file and kawa itself doesn't seem to expose that
2020-08-23T16:51:39Z wasamasa: so a patch may be in order
2020-08-23T16:52:19Z wasamasa: for gnu/kawa/io/JLineInPort.java that is
2020-08-23T16:52:43Z wasamasa: see https://depp.brause.cc/waka/waka for details
2020-08-23T16:53:07Z wasamasa: I set the HISTORY_FILE variable for that and unset the HISTORY_IGNORE_SPACE option :>
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2020-08-23T17:56:49Z arew: I found the culprit!
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2020-08-23T17:58:03Z arew: there was a call/cc in the hot path inside (scheme generator)'s procedure called gtake
2020-08-23T17:59:11Z arew: when replacing that definition with another that does not rely on call/cc, the query time is just 1.1 times slower than C
2020-08-23T17:59:24Z arew: C via python...
2020-08-23T18:00:12Z arew: it is even better than that, because on the full run, even with the extra finalization step, my program is 1.1 times faster than the other progrma \o/
2020-08-23T18:01:02Z Zipheir: arew: Is that the SRFI 158 sample implementation?
2020-08-23T18:01:39Z arew: by the way, the number of allocated bytes is around the same as the size the file I am querying (a little bit less in fact)
2020-08-23T18:01:41Z Zipheir: arew: I've noticed it makes heavy use of make-coroutine-generator.
2020-08-23T18:01:44Z arew: Zipheir: yes
2020-08-23T18:02:13Z Zipheir: arew: As I thought. :/
2020-08-23T18:02:54Z arew: we need another sample implementation for that library, is not the first time I am hiting this bug..
2020-08-23T18:03:07Z Zipheir: Yes.
2020-08-23T18:03:32Z Zipheir: I got bitten by that issue with make-unfold-generator, which uses coroutines for some reason.
2020-08-23T18:03:53Z Zipheir: call/cc can be expensive.
2020-08-23T18:04:39Z arew: yep
2020-08-23T18:04:54Z jcowan: arew: send the patch to Arthur.
2020-08-23T18:05:13Z jcowan sees that it's pervasive
2020-08-23T18:05:38Z jcowan: Yes, a (mostly) call/cc-free implementation would be a Good Thing, if anyone cared to undertake it
2020-08-23T18:05:49Z jcowan: Of course, in some schemes call/cc is cheaper than others
2020-08-23T18:06:14Z arew: not today, I need to rest 9_9 but I put it on my todo list ;)
2020-08-23T18:06:25Z arew: I also have work related to finger trees.
2020-08-23T18:07:17Z jcowan: Of course not today!  It's not in the critical path, but it will help adoption by squelching "SRFI 158 is inefficient" complaints.
2020-08-23T18:07:30Z jcowan: (It might even be, though, that in some Schemes call/cc is faster than mutation.)
2020-08-23T18:09:03Z Zipheir: It can be especially annoying in implementations which don't save continuations across REPL prompts (e.g. chibi). https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/issues/686
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2020-08-23T18:13:38Z arew: set! can be faster than call/cc?
2020-08-23T18:15:23Z wasamasa: it depends on the implementation
2020-08-23T18:15:34Z arew: seems impossible
2020-08-23T18:15:39Z wasamasa: why?
2020-08-23T18:15:50Z arew: set! is just mutation :o)
2020-08-23T18:15:53Z wasamasa: suppose you use CPS to get free continuations and your GC penalizes mutation
2020-08-23T18:17:14Z arew: well then it is possible
2020-08-23T18:17:34Z Zipheir: arew: Wait, were you asking how set! can be faster than call/cc, or the reverse?
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2020-08-23T18:17:47Z arew: Zipheir: how set! can be faster than call/cc
2020-08-23T18:18:04Z Zipheir: arew: OK.
2020-08-23T18:18:58Z wasamasa: wait, I've explained the opposite
2020-08-23T18:19:06Z wasamasa: where continuations are faster than mutation
2020-08-23T18:19:12Z Zipheir: arew: Yeah, as wasamasa says, I'm guessing that could arise in non-CPSing Schemes with efficient mutation.
2020-08-23T18:19:46Z wasamasa: for the other way around, just make call/cc inefficient enough :D
2020-08-23T18:19:59Z Zipheir: *That's* easy. :)
2020-08-23T18:20:02Z arew: I really know about guile and chez, and both set! is fast
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2020-08-23T18:21:57Z erkin: Put a sleep statement in call/cc.
2020-08-23T18:22:07Z arew: :o)
2020-08-23T18:24:18Z arew: on an unrelated note I https://scheme-lang.com/ is back
2020-08-23T18:24:33Z arew: now I need to take care of schemers.best
2020-08-23T18:27:22Z wasamasa: lol
2020-08-23T18:27:38Z wasamasa: what's gonna go there, some stock photo and a silly text below?
2020-08-23T18:27:51Z wasamasa: "You know it's true: Scheme programmers are the best"
2020-08-23T18:28:15Z wasamasa: or "Schemers know best: Say no to complicated software and code duplication"
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2020-08-23T19:15:23Z arew: I will aggregate the feeds from git repositories of scheme implementations and some notable repositories
2020-08-23T19:18:55Z arew: wasamasa: I take notes :p
2020-08-23T19:20:20Z jcowan: Do we know who owns scheme-lang.com?
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2020-08-23T19:27:30Z arew: me
2020-08-23T19:27:31Z arew: why?
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2020-08-23T19:54:05Z jcowan: If you have a repo backing it, I'll send you a PR to fix some minor errors and infelicities in the prose.
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2020-08-23T20:17:19Z arew: jcowan: https://github.com/amirouche/scheme-lang.com/
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2020-08-23T20:41:11Z arew: TIA!
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2020-08-23T21:16:59Z jcowan: Done.
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2020-08-23T21:20:44Z aeth: arew: If you want a vaguely outer space theme for your website you should probably try to copy the Star Trek UI (LCARS) as close as legally allowed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCARS
2020-08-23T21:20:59Z aeth: In particular... Solid black background, mostly simple geometric shapes, lots of orange.
2020-08-23T21:22:00Z aeth: Another take on a similar concept is metro design, which worked fine on Zune and Windows Phone, but wasn't really well-implemented in Windows 8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_(design_language)
2020-08-23T21:22:38Z aeth: This was just squares/rectangles, so an even simpler geometry.
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2020-08-23T21:40:01Z arew: I tried many things to make it look like science fiction, I guess the part that is the problem is "fiction".
2020-08-23T21:41:32Z arew: Also I have no space ship.
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2020-08-24T03:34:33Z aeth: Now I can read *some* of the number syntax... https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/commit/3d8370d024bc2352879b69f2ae236d6195e0597c
2020-08-24T03:35:52Z aeth: Maybe I should've just done a numberless Scheme subset. Numbers aren't very minimalist...
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2020-08-24T03:44:27Z Riastradh: aeth: floating-point only, much better
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2020-08-24T03:47:00Z aeth: Riastradh: actually, floating point syntax is unnecessary because of #i
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2020-08-24T03:47:26Z aeth: e.g. #i41/3
2020-08-24T03:48:00Z aeth: just print any floating point as #i followed by (exact foo)
2020-08-24T03:48:45Z aeth: e.g. (exact 47.234) => 6647594524975563/140737488355328 and now you can print it as #i6647594524975563/140737488355328 and read that in to get it back
2020-08-24T03:49:43Z aeth: although you could also get 23617/500 which is much nicer
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2020-08-24T03:57:10Z autumn[m]: I'm probably missing something about floating point stuff, but is there not a possibility for that to not round-trip correctly? (... I am not even close to as well educated on the math side of things as I'd like to be...)
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2020-08-24T03:58:12Z aeth: I think there's a possibility that it won't round trip correctly for the actual underlying floating point representation itself (I just gave you two rationals that produce the same flonum and depending on the implementation either might be given by calling exact, or something else!)
2020-08-24T03:58:39Z aeth: But the printable representation will match, which should include any precision you care about.
2020-08-24T04:00:00Z aeth: On the other hand, I'm not sure though. (- #i6647594524975563/140737488355328 #i23617/500) is 0.0 in Chibi Scheme.
2020-08-24T04:03:18Z jcowan: Well, how not?  Both terms are 47.234
2020-08-24T04:04:46Z jcowan: However, #i won't let you get +inf.0, -inf.0, or +nan.0
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2020-08-24T04:16:38Z aeth: good point
2020-08-24T04:18:21Z Riastradh: #i1/0, #i-1/0, #i0/0?  (doesn't help with +nan.1234, though)
2020-08-24T04:18:49Z Riastradh: autumn[m]: all I'm saying is that instead of a `numberless Scheme subset' aeth oughta do a floating-point only Scheme subset
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2020-08-24T04:22:12Z aeth: Riastradh: #i-1/0 is probably going to be an error. It is in Chibi and it is in Airship Scheme
2020-08-24T04:22:35Z aeth: Riastradh: because #i is probably (inexact -1/0) and -1/0 will fail as an exact, rather than producing an inexact flonum result
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2020-08-24T04:29:57Z Riastradh: I'm just saying, if you had a floating-point-only Scheme, and you only had a ratio parser and not a decimal parser and for some reason couldn't use the notation -inf.0, #i-1/0 would be a reasonable way to write -inf.0 under that premise.
2020-08-24T04:30:55Z aeth: yes
2020-08-24T04:31:27Z aeth: it's a quite amusing way to achieve minimalism... a floating-point-only Scheme with a ratio-only parser
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2020-08-24T05:13:13Z Zipheir: Lua went floating-point only from the start.  Although it has nothing like the Scheme tower.
2020-08-24T05:45:43Z Riastradh: BUT THE ARRAYS ARE ONE-BASED AAAAAAAARGH
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2020-08-24T07:12:04Z aeth: That's fine, actually
2020-08-24T07:12:27Z aeth: There are no actual arrays in Lua, they're all just tables, so if you implement Lua, you can put the hash-table part in position 0 and the array part in the rest!
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2020-08-24T15:15:58Z mason: Riastradh: Thank you again! Your advice to just email the authors was good. I don't have an image yet, but I have several leads now and a bit of a side-quest. :)
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2020-08-24T19:14:02Z arew: jcowan: can I merge your changes about scheme-lang.com?
2020-08-24T19:14:15Z jcowan: yes
2020-08-24T19:19:08Z arew: I found a forum about programming, there is a section for scheme, the last message is just one year old
2020-08-24T19:19:10Z arew: https://lispforum.com/viewforum.php?f=22
2020-08-24T19:21:23Z wasamasa: wow, a lisp forum
2020-08-24T19:22:28Z wasamasa: I recognize some nicknames
2020-08-24T19:25:52Z jcowan finds forums irritating unless they have two-way email interfaces.
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2020-08-24T19:54:29Z arew: behold the common crawl search engine: https://hyper.dev/blog/ccse.html
2020-08-24T19:54:41Z arew: spoiler: the binaries are not optimized yet.
2020-08-24T20:10:37Z arew: rudybot: common crawl speaks to you?
2020-08-24T20:10:38Z rudybot: arew: i just installed bongo, and when i start a track playing in bongo, cpu usage for that instance of emacs jumps to 100% (and everything else slows to a crawl)
2020-08-24T20:11:12Z arew: rudybot: bongo is resource hungry?
2020-08-24T20:11:12Z rudybot: arew: bongo doesn't handle big playlist well
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2020-08-24T20:24:52Z aeth: arew: I disagree with your decision to use serifs in a sci fi themed page. Users expect san serif for that sort of thing, for the same reason that they expect serifs on news sites. Although san serifs are so in style that some news sites seem to use them now.
2020-08-24T20:25:28Z aeth: It's sort of like having a fantasy page *without* a skeuomorphic fake scroll.
2020-08-24T20:27:22Z aeth: But if it's an intentional subversion of expectations to stand out (which it looks like since you open with "Let's agree that serif fonts do not always carry boring stuff.") you probably shouldn't open with it.
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2020-08-24T21:05:37Z arew: oh
2020-08-24T21:05:46Z arew: yes it is intentional
2020-08-24T21:06:26Z arew: the opening is the ease the surprise... serif font over an image of space is not usual
2020-08-24T21:06:39Z aeth: that's the kind of thing I'd put in a(n HTML) comment, as an Easter egg to silence the people curious enough to (1) view source or (2) try to submit a pull request to change the font
2020-08-24T21:07:04Z arew: aeth: I never receive PR except for grammar... my code is perfect :)
2020-08-24T21:07:42Z arew: I cound the number of PR i merged on personnal project on a single hand.
2020-08-24T21:10:53Z aeth: One of the reasons I use Gitlab instead of Github is to avoid pull requests, but I still got one once. :-)
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2020-08-24T21:32:01Z jcowan prefers serifs in all contexts because readability'
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2020-08-24T21:33:50Z aeth: another instance of the chibi-scheme reader not following the spec: '۲
2020-08-24T21:34:00Z aeth: That should be wrapped in ||s since it's Nd
2020-08-24T21:36:40Z aeth: Although, admittedly, if there's no Unicode library involved, that must be really annoying to test for. I just happened to find a solution that works for portable CL (and, as usual, there's also a 10x faster SBCL built-in if in SBCL) and added it to my read-case.
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2020-08-24T23:39:16Z mdhughes: I hate sans-serif fonts for anything but titles, so I'm fine with serif violating some all-Helvetica dystopian expectation.
2020-08-24T23:39:39Z mdhughes: THX-1138 is supposed to be a worst case, not aspirational.
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2020-08-25T04:05:13Z aeth: heh, I spend too much time doing programming/technical stuff so the font family I'm most used to are the monospace ones. A good monospace font is mostly sans serif, with serifs to disambiguate similar characters. so e.g. #\l is a good candiate to serif in some way, as is #\I
2020-08-25T04:05:34Z aeth: Or at the very least do #\I with bars at the top/bottom which isn't quite serif but is at least better than having it look like #\|
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2020-08-25T05:36:48Z foof: aeth: I might support that for (scheme write), but don't want to put a table of >1000 chars into the core chibi binary.
2020-08-25T05:37:37Z foof: what was the other instance?
2020-08-25T05:37:53Z foof: if you don't file bug reports I can't fix them
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2020-08-25T05:56:37Z aeth: foof: #u8 "" becomes #u8()
2020-08-25T05:57:17Z aeth: (similarly, #u8"" becomes #u8())
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2020-08-25T06:02:52Z aeth: it took me a lot of time in § 7.1 to find that one
2020-08-25T06:06:21Z aeth: I'm not sure if I should file a bug report over 5-6 characters.
2020-08-25T06:09:22Z aeth: I think the way you read #u8( might cause some other weird issues in the reader, though. I haven't looked at the source.
2020-08-25T06:13:12Z aeth: e.g. I'm not sure if "#u8;\n(1 2 3)" is permitted
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2020-08-25T06:28:52Z foof: aeth: that's not in violation of the spec
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2020-08-25T07:18:46Z mdhughes: Why was it changed from #vu8()? (which does not allow spaces in R6RS)
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2020-08-25T07:21:33Z foof: why was SRFI 4 #u8(), which predates R6RS by many years, changed to #vu8()?
2020-08-25T07:23:14Z foof: (neither SRFI 4 nor R7RS allow spaces, that's a conformant Chibi extension)
2020-08-25T07:24:09Z aeth: mdhughes: My interpretation of ß7.1.1 is that it shouldn't permit a space because the grammar is specified as <bytevector> -> #u8(<byte>*) although to be fair, reading that too strictly might not permit more than 1 byte.
2020-08-25T07:24:39Z aeth: wow, that Unicode didn't work, hmm
2020-08-25T07:24:46Z aeth: it should've been a section mark just like the last time
2020-08-25T07:24:56Z foof: yes, "it is an error", therefore chibi can do what it wants
2020-08-25T07:25:03Z ecraven: here you are: § ;)
2020-08-25T07:27:33Z mdhughes: Tokens can always be separated by whitespace (atmosphere in R6RS), and '#u8(' is a single token, as is <byte>
2020-08-25T07:28:57Z aeth: Personally, in my reading of §7.1.1 I permit spaces, but only spaces, so I permit #u8 () instead of #u8(). I do this not because it's a good idea, but because paredit for Emacs can turn things like #u8() into #u8 () by default. A really, really bad default, but a default.
2020-08-25T07:29:26Z aeth: I'm half-tempted to give a style warning with instructions on how to configure paredit not to do this.
2020-08-25T07:30:01Z ecraven: aeth: how do you configure paredit not to do this?
2020-08-25T07:30:37Z aeth: iirc it's what this part of my .emacs is doing: (setq paredit-space-for-delimiter-predicates '((lambda (endp delimiter) nil)))
2020-08-25T07:31:19Z aeth: I say iirc because the comment right above it is one of the few times (maybe the only time) I have ever put "FUCK" in my source code comments :-)
2020-08-25T07:33:34Z ecraven: aeth: thanks, I'll try that. I've been bothered by this before, thanks for helping!
2020-08-25T07:33:46Z aeth: you're welcome
2020-08-25T07:34:56Z aeth: Oh, I found the commit that added that in my personal dotfile git repo. The commit is "Fuck you, paredit." from 2016-03-21... I think I must've wasted a lot of time on this one-liner before I got something to work.
2020-08-25T07:35:10Z aeth: This is why you need to use descriptive commits, so you can find it again later!
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2020-08-25T07:48:41Z ecraven: ;)
2020-08-25T07:51:50Z aeth: I think I'll go with this: Style warning: In a strict interpretation of the standard, whitespace between #u8 and its parentheses would not be permitted.
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2020-08-25T07:53:00Z aeth: (All whitespace has to be permitted because once a space is inserted between #u8 and () an automatic linebreak could be inserted.) The style warning is enough to give people a warning that it might not be portable, but not an actual reader error.
2020-08-25T07:53:21Z aeth: And there'll probably be a way to supress this feature for people who don't care about standards.
2020-08-25T07:53:29Z aeth: mdhughes: Satisfied?
2020-08-25T07:55:07Z mdhughes: I suppose. It really ought to be a strict error and maybe an --emacs-damage switch to allow space, but you do you.
2020-08-25T07:55:20Z aeth: heh, yeah, I could do a --i-use-paredit-mode-defaults
2020-08-25T07:55:34Z aeth: but once it's there in the code, the spot is there to potentially be turned into an error later on
2020-08-25T07:56:00Z aeth: A warning that something is not standard is also a warning that it could change in the future and shouldn't be relied on.
2020-08-25T07:59:00Z mdhughes: Oh, and foof: R6RS technically reads #vu8() as a bytevector, not u8vector, and doesn't have other integer vectors. Conflicting with a full SRFI-4 impl would be bad.
2020-08-25T07:59:35Z foof: are bytevectors and u8vectors disjoint in any impl?
2020-08-25T08:01:19Z ecraven: what is the semantic difference between a bytevector and a u8vector?
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2020-08-25T08:15:44Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/commit/cb63474544532e9d936d009c4c8c0f0d0024a1a2
2020-08-25T08:16:22Z aeth: I compromised and put the fix in a comment above the style warning instead of in the style warning. Anyone searching for the error message will probably end up in the source code file.
2020-08-25T08:17:49Z foof: ecraven: there should be none, and R7RS requires there to be none
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2020-08-25T08:19:33Z aeth: Should've called it an octetvector, which is probably what a CLer would call it. They tend to use "octet" instead of "byte" for (unsigned-byte 8).
2020-08-25T08:21:12Z ecraven: aeth: and they are wise to do that ;)
2020-08-25T08:22:46Z aeth: At the very least (since byte sizes *can* differ) "bytevector" gives a signed/unsigned ambiguity (unlike e.g. "u8") while an "octet" is a nonsense new word so it can mean specifically u8
2020-08-25T08:27:29Z ecraven: aeth: octet is neither new nor nonsense :P
2020-08-25T08:28:29Z autumn[m]: ...duet, quartet, octet...?
2020-08-25T08:29:15Z ecraven: even in computing, octet has been in use since at least the 60s, it might be a few years younger than "byte", but it's definitely close to retirement age now ;)
2020-08-25T08:31:49Z aeth: This is a Lisp channel, it's new ;-)
2020-08-25T08:32:24Z aeth: But I meant "new" in the sense of "invented".
2020-08-25T08:33:02Z ecraven: you're arguing that "octet" is more of an invented term than "byte"?
2020-08-25T08:33:25Z ecraven: hm.. hard to say, but I'd guess that octet is *older* than lisp :P
2020-08-25T08:35:34Z aeth: Yes, "byte" meaning "octet" is new, through standardization of the byte
2020-08-25T08:36:11Z aeth: That and the signed/unsigned ambiguity remains.
2020-08-25T08:37:43Z ecraven: to return to the start of this, I don't see any reason why #uv8 should be any different than #u8, especially since R7RS mandates that they are the same, from my understanding.
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2020-08-25T08:44:01Z foof: well, SRFI 160 does
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2020-08-25T08:45:50Z aeth: R7RS large
2020-08-25T08:46:28Z ecraven: I'd even argue that common sense mandates this, if they are meant to represent the *same* thing
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2020-08-25T10:15:34Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-08-25T13:24:25Z jcowan: SRFI 160 says that u8vector and bytevector should, not must, be the same
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2020-08-25T13:26:32Z jcowan: That's primarily to accommodate guile, in which they are (somewhat pointlessly) different.
2020-08-25T13:27:02Z ecraven: does guile have a rationale for this decision?
2020-08-25T13:27:46Z gmaggior:  Is there (code for) a hash-table which preserves insertion order (iterating over its keys)?
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2020-08-25T14:33:26Z lloda: guile should be fixed re: u8 vu8
2020-08-25T14:33:31Z lloda: i think it's just back compat
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2020-08-25T14:47:57Z jcowan: ecraven: Mostly that R6RS was retrofitted rather hastily to a Scheme that already had SRFI 4 embedded in it, including the lexical syntax.
2020-08-25T14:52:41Z lloda: it was a bit pointless to invent vu8 when there was already u8
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2020-08-25T15:09:38Z Zipheir: lloda: See R6RS for the rationale http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-3.html  Bytevectors provide many different chunk sizes for -ref procedures, whereas u8vectors are expliciting 8-bit oriented.
2020-08-25T15:09:52Z Zipheir: Explicitly, even.
2020-08-25T15:10:31Z Zipheir: At least Guile doesn't have a weird "blob" type (CHICKEN).
2020-08-25T15:12:54Z wasamasa: yes, it's weird to have blobs, strings and srfi-4 vectors in mostly interchangeable ways
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2020-08-25T15:13:03Z wasamasa: u8vectors are aliased to srfi-4 vectors, so there's that
2020-08-25T15:16:31Z Zipheir: Blobs and other binary-data representatins should just be bytevectors at this point.
2020-08-25T15:16:52Z Zipheir: s/representatins/representations/
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2020-08-25T15:20:19Z Zipheir: But it's likely we'll have the usual Scheme semi-compatible odds and ends for many years to come.
2020-08-25T15:23:30Z lloda: vu8 and u8 will be synonyms in Guile sooner or later
2020-08-25T15:23:52Z lloda: where they aren't already, it's a bug afaic
2020-08-25T15:24:00Z lloda: s/already/yet
2020-08-25T15:24:45Z lloda: you can already do  (bytevector-ieee-single-native-ref #u8(1 2 3 4) 0) or (u8vector-ref #vu8(1 2 3) 0) for example
2020-08-25T15:25:12Z Zipheir: That's good.
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2020-08-25T18:35:30Z jcowan: Of course SRFI 160 shows how pointless the R6RS rationale is.  However, I think the logic of #v was so that if the lexical syntax was eventually extended it would take up so many letters (SRFI 160) uses #u, #s, #f, #c, and of course you have to be careful about #f32( vs. plain old #f.
2020-08-25T18:35:42Z jcowan: (SRFI 4 has a warning about this too.)
2020-08-25T18:35:52Z jcowan: s/would/would not
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2020-08-25T21:10:31Z aeth: oh, Guile's a pretty weird Scheme, almost as weird as Racket, e.g. '(. foo) is foo, which I can kind of understand because of how the lambda list rest syntax works in Scheme, but it's still pretty weird.
2020-08-25T21:11:22Z aeth: (A few others might have this feature, but e.g. I can't install Chicken without compiling it myself thanks to the name conflict with C#...)
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2020-08-25T21:15:20Z aeth: Speaking of using #foo beyond length 1, is there a SRFI that uses CL's radix syntax? e.g. #10r, basically. More relevantly, #16rf is the same as #xf, but it lets you go up to #36r, which is the most you can do with case-insensitive letters (which even Scheme has iirc) and no symbols. i.e. 0-9a-z
2020-08-25T21:16:57Z aeth: It seems weird to build the functionality to create an integer of an arbitrary radix in the reader, but only actually support 2, 8, 10, and 16 when the mechanism can be extended to 2-36 (at which point you'd need more letters) with the appropriate reader prefix.
2020-08-25T21:17:48Z aeth: I'm guessing most Schemes should be able to support at least the range 2-16 without major changes.
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2020-08-25T21:22:25Z weinholt: i think my parser had the (. foo) => foo bug as well. the style of parser i use has to explicitly check for that error, and it's easy to forget.
2020-08-25T21:25:38Z aeth: I don't think it's a bug in Guile. I think it's a feature designed to avoid the edge case where (define (foo . rest) rest) has to become (define foo (lambda rest rest)) instead of (define foo (lambda (. rest) rest)) like everything else when written as a lambda, which could be confusing to newbies.
2020-08-25T21:26:15Z jcowan: aeth: I think MIT Scheme or else none at all
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2020-08-25T21:27:54Z aeth: weinholt: But, yes, I can relate. A lot of the complexity of my current Scheme reader is tracking a bunch of variables whose only real purpose is to catch syntax errors, mostly related to .
2020-08-25T21:28:52Z aeth: I also catch some style issues, like iirc ( foo bar baz ) that's technically valid but should be avoided.
2020-08-25T21:29:10Z aeth: jcowan: That would make sense, MIT Scheme has a lot of features like this
2020-08-25T21:30:18Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme only supports 2, 8, 10, and 16.
2020-08-25T21:30:25Z Riastradh: (define-deferred param:reader-radix
2020-08-25T21:30:26Z Riastradh:   (make-unsettable-parameter 10
2020-08-25T21:30:26Z Riastradh:                              (lambda (value)
2020-08-25T21:30:26Z Riastradh:                                (if (memv value '(2 8 10 16))
2020-08-25T21:30:26Z Riastradh:                                    value
2020-08-25T21:30:28Z Riastradh:                                    (error "Invalid reader radix:" value)))))
2020-08-25T21:31:22Z aeth: base 12 for life!
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2020-08-25T21:39:54Z aeth: Riastradh: I think I'm going to create a Scheme12 that's MIT Scheme but with '(2 8 10 12 16) there.
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2020-08-25T21:49:32Z arew: Scheme12 ftw!
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2020-08-25T21:51:43Z aeth: I should write a SRFI and hold it back and time it to be SRFI 288 (#12r200)
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2020-08-25T22:01:18Z arew: who would know it is possible to translate a boolean keyword search query into a finite state machine :]
2020-08-25T22:01:29Z arew: anyone with a computer grade i guess
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2020-08-25T22:09:12Z erkin: haha
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2020-08-26T00:41:35Z schmr: Are there any Schemers here who speak more than one human language?
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2020-08-26T00:48:29Z mdhughes: Poorly, I'm afraid mi Español es basura ahora.
2020-08-26T00:48:44Z mdhughes: And a very little French & Japanese.
2020-08-26T00:51:06Z fizzie: If there aren't any other non-native English speakers (which are highly likely to speak at least two languages) on a programming channel of this size on this network, I'll eat a pair of parentheses.
2020-08-26T00:52:12Z schmr: I started a project to translate Scheme to every human language.  If you speak another language and want to translate Scheme to that language, please feel free to submit a PR: https://github.com/metaphorm/international-scheme
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2020-08-26T00:53:15Z arew: great
2020-08-26T00:56:09Z arew: +fav
2020-08-26T00:56:51Z Zipheir: schmr: Translating the core Scheme forms, you mean?
2020-08-26T00:57:14Z Zipheir wonders if 'lambda' becomes 'l' in Angloscheme.
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2020-08-26T00:59:35Z erkin: schmr: Is the word order preserved across languages?
2020-08-26T00:59:56Z erkin: eg `define-syntax` cannot be `syntax-define`
2020-08-26T01:00:39Z schmr: Zipheir: Yes, translating the entire language to other human languages.  I've preserved lambda, cons, car, and cdr in the first translation.
2020-08-26T01:00:57Z erkin: Algol did it first. ;-P
2020-08-26T01:01:09Z Riastradh: (((((... x or) t t if) ((x t)) let) (... y x or)) (#t (or)) () rules-syntax) or syntax-define)
2020-08-26T01:01:18Z Riastradh: crap
2020-08-26T01:01:20Z Riastradh: (((((... y or) t t if) ((x t)) let) (... y x or)) (#t (or)) () rules-syntax) or syntax-define)
2020-08-26T01:02:11Z Zipheir: schmr: And most of the numerical operation names, I presume.
2020-08-26T01:03:13Z erkin: The language might have a different transcription for `lambda', like `lamda'.
2020-08-26T01:03:31Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Hardly.  For example, (sin х), (cos х), (tg х) in Russian!
2020-08-26T01:03:43Z Riastradh: (OK, in actual Russian math typography you would use x, not х.)
2020-08-26T01:03:49Z Zipheir: Hah.
2020-08-26T01:04:05Z Zipheir: For some value of "most", depending on target language.
2020-08-26T01:08:53Z schmr: erkin: I think each indentifier should be translated with a word order that sounds natural in the destination language, but it's really up to the translators.
2020-08-26T01:11:22Z mdhughes: COBOL initially had translations, but only the English ones were used.
2020-08-26T01:11:49Z mdhughes: The problem of course being that you couldn't port code.
2020-08-26T01:12:46Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's a serious issue.
2020-08-26T01:13:32Z mdhughes: Allowing comments and identifiers in any language is usually enough; I've worked on a lot of Java code with Hindi (Latin & Devangari script), Japanese, Chinese, etc. Copy-pasta for function names, sometimes Google to figure out what it is.
2020-08-26T01:13:45Z Zipheir: But I think many non-English speakers teaching/studying Scheme would appreciate a translated version of the language.
2020-08-26T01:14:54Z Zipheir: (The problem with that is, of course, that all existing sources use English Scheme.)
2020-08-26T01:14:58Z mdhughes: Russian and Ukrainian, too, but most Slavic coders will only use it in comments, happily.
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2020-08-26T01:15:56Z Zipheir: It's naming within code that's going to suck for non-English speakers.
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2020-08-26T01:17:56Z Zipheir: i.e. a descriptive identifie name for a Hindi speaker is probably not going to be an English word.
2020-08-26T01:18:10Z Zipheir: identifier, even.
2020-08-26T01:19:01Z mdhughes: Spanish code would probably be useful, since a half billion or so people speak Spanish but not much/any English. But the entire toolchain is English, the Scheme code is the teeniest little icecube above a sunken iceberg.
2020-08-26T01:19:37Z erkin: A problem is that even if you replace every token in a language, the word order is still English.
2020-08-26T01:20:17Z erkin: (define x 1) sounds natural in English but it would be Yodaspeak in Turkish.
2020-08-26T01:21:03Z Zipheir tries to imagine Turkish Yoda.
2020-08-26T01:22:31Z erkin: Even with infix, 'x = 1' neatly maps to 'x equals one' but it would be 'x 1'e eşittir' in Turkish. (It's doubly bad for agglutinative languages in this regard: Dative inflection of 1 depends on the vowel of the final syllable, to make things worse.)
2020-08-26T01:23:10Z Zipheir: Ouch.
2020-08-26T01:23:43Z Oxyd: In all agglutinative languages?
2020-08-26T01:23:49Z Zipheir: Turkish mathematics is reverse Polish, then?
2020-08-26T01:24:00Z erkin: Oh no, just talking about Turkish in this case.
2020-08-26T01:24:32Z erkin: Zipheir: Fortunately, Turkish mathematics just individually pronounces each token.
2020-08-26T01:24:47Z erkin: Like 'one plus one equals two'
2020-08-26T01:25:26Z erkin: It sounds weird in normal speech though.
2020-08-26T01:30:39Z Zipheir: I wonder whether just translating tokens or whole identifiers would be helpful to anyone, then.
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2020-08-26T01:46:50Z aeth: Zipheir: Are you the same Zipheir that has been editing the Scheme Wikibook?
2020-08-26T01:46:59Z mdhughes: Of course the entire problem is solved if you don't use any words. That's why brainfuck is the best language ever created.
2020-08-26T01:47:37Z mdhughes: (or APL, if you're into the whole "my language can't even be typed on your keyboard" thing)
2020-08-26T01:47:40Z aeth: mdhughes: much easier to parse, that's for sure. Just read-char is required
2020-08-26T01:47:53Z mdhughes: Well that's all you need in Scheme, too.
2020-08-26T01:48:11Z aeth: no, I mean, Brainfuck just requires one call to read-char to start generating code.
2020-08-26T01:48:34Z aeth: Although to be efficient, you should probably combine some adjacent ones, e.g. +++++ should be (inc 5) not 5 (inc)s
2020-08-26T01:48:47Z aeth: That's not required by the language, though.
2020-08-26T01:53:25Z aeth: Zipheir: Anyway, I can put the documentation (the detailed documentation, which will be kept in a separate repository as Markdown files that could e.g. potentially be turned into HTML later) for Airship Scheme in the same (or a compatible) license as the Wikibook.
2020-08-26T01:55:04Z aeth: Oh, hmm, actually a slight problem is that the Wikibook uses CC BY-SA 3.0 and the sharealike part might make it impossible to be compatible with the current licenses, which are 4.0
2020-08-26T01:55:33Z Zipheir: aeth: Yes.
2020-08-26T01:56:28Z Zipheir: aeth: I mean to get back to work on it for real this coming month.
2020-08-26T01:56:49Z Zipheir: aeth: Oh well, that's what Wikimedia's using these days, I guess.
2020-08-26T01:58:48Z aeth: It might just be an old link in the footer, and it might have an "or later" license like GPLv2+
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2020-08-26T02:02:57Z Zipheir: All of Wikimedia links to BY-SA 3.0, but their contributor copyright guidelines also has the text of the 4.0 version and doesn't generally specify versions.
2020-08-26T02:03:47Z Zipheir: I have no idea what the differences between BY-SA 3 and 4 are.  I doubt it's anything which would trigger a GPL 2 vs. 3-style culture war.
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2020-08-26T02:12:45Z aeth: Zipheir: what are your plans for the Wikibook?
2020-08-26T02:13:02Z aeth: (Besides writing it in 100% unportable Airship Schemisms of course.)
2020-08-26T02:13:08Z Zipheir laughs.
2020-08-26T02:13:23Z Zipheir: aeth: Firstly, I want the "Basic Scheme" chapters to be something like readable and useful.
2020-08-26T02:14:29Z Zipheir: aeth: I'd like to do something like an updated version of Eisenberg's book, and cover more advanced Scheme programming techniques and some of the R7RS-large libraries.
2020-08-26T02:16:36Z Zipheir: Lots of Scheme books show you e.g. how to use alists, but none of them cover Scheme's hash tables, set, or mapping libraries, for example.
2020-08-26T02:16:57Z mdhughes: TSPL does.
2020-08-26T02:16:59Z aeth: Zipheir: It probably wouldn't hurt to have a chapter (or section) for each SRFI that's in R7RS-large since R7RS-large itself is just going to have the SRFIs themselves, and SRFIs are more aimed at implementers than users.
2020-08-26T02:18:48Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Hash tables and sets?  Not that I can see.
2020-08-26T02:19:08Z Zipheir: aeth: Right, agreed.
2020-08-26T02:19:49Z mdhughes: Hashtables are §6.13
2020-08-26T02:20:05Z mdhughes: (sets are just degenerate hashtables)
2020-08-26T02:20:36Z Zipheir: mdhughes: The dispatch-table stuff?
2020-08-26T02:20:49Z Zipheir: mdhughes: It's nothing like SRFI 125 or 69, though.
2020-08-26T02:21:39Z mdhughes: Zipheir: TSPL4 §6.13 is standard hashtables.
2020-08-26T02:21:47Z mdhughes: I dunno what you're looking at!
2020-08-26T02:21:56Z Zipheir: Oh, I'm looking at the 3rd edition.
2020-08-26T02:22:22Z Zipheir: No idea why Google/Startpage returns that first.
2020-08-26T02:23:32Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Unfortunately, R7RS-large and R6 have different hashtables.
2020-08-26T02:23:59Z mdhughes: Barely. Insert a pointless and ugly - in the 5th position.
2020-08-26T02:24:57Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Have you looked at SRFI 125?  It's quite different.  For one thing, R6 has no concept of comparators.
2020-08-26T02:25:19Z mdhughes: You pass a comparator in on creation.
2020-08-26T02:25:47Z Zipheir: As of Red Edition, that's (scheme hash-table).
2020-08-26T02:26:10Z Zipheir: Anyway, TSPL is very good.
2020-08-26T02:28:09Z Zipheir: With all respect to Dybvig, I happen to think the prose is a bit difficult and that the all-rights-reserved licensing makes it sub-optimal as a reference.
2020-08-26T02:28:49Z Zipheir: Hence the Wikibooks project.
2020-08-26T02:29:30Z Zipheir: And SchemeWiki, of course!
2020-08-26T02:30:38Z arew: Zipheir: what kind of help do you look for regarding the wiki?
2020-08-26T02:31:01Z arew: Zipheir: is there a roadmap or something? (it is nearly september, we should prepare ;)
2020-08-26T02:31:31Z Zipheir: arew: Yes, I'd like to work out a roadmap.
2020-08-26T02:32:46Z mdhughes: It's definitely written for an audience of experience programmers. Which is fine, I don't want to wade thru a child's primer to get to coding.
2020-08-26T02:33:35Z Zipheir: arew: Pick anything you want to work on.  This page needs a lot of work, but much of it will be tedious (how to run Schemes on various systems, etc.) https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Scheme_Programming/Using_a_Scheme_interpreter
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2020-08-26T02:34:03Z mdhughes: My plan at some point to write an '80s BASIC-like Scheme tutorial is still on back-back-burner. 2020 looks unlikely.
2020-08-26T02:34:08Z Zipheir: mdhughes: I meant specifically Dybvig's prose style.  It's rather concrete-like at times.
2020-08-26T02:34:42Z mdhughes: Zipheir: I like it, very direct, but to each their own.
2020-08-26T02:35:05Z aeth: imo very direct is Haskell-style documentation
2020-08-26T02:35:15Z aeth: here's the type signatures, here are the axioms, deduce what this API actually does!
2020-08-26T02:35:24Z Zipheir: Very.
2020-08-26T02:35:53Z Zipheir: Not so good for chapters on "Basic Scheme", though.
2020-08-26T02:36:29Z aeth: If you wanted "Basic Scheme", you should've kept tagbody and go in the language design from older Lisps
2020-08-26T02:36:36Z aeth: Way easier to translate Basic when you have gotos...
2020-08-26T02:37:29Z aeth: (I was joking, but I think jcowan mentioned that he figured out a compatible tagbody/go design for Scheme. Idk if we'll ever see it as a SRFI.)
2020-08-26T02:37:44Z Zipheir: Hutton's book on Haskell is my favorite model of a good current programming-language introduction.
2020-08-26T02:38:20Z Zipheir: I have no idea what "tagbody/go" is :)
2020-08-26T02:40:27Z Zipheir: Sounds like a pair of co-op-mode Portal robots.
2020-08-26T02:44:54Z aeth: Zipheir: In Scheme, iteration macros generally expand to tail recursive functions, but in Common Lisp, tail recursion isn't guaranteed to be optimized, so they usually expand to TAGBODY, which keeps goto tags within lexical scope.
2020-08-26T02:46:07Z aeth: Zipheir: e.g. DO or LOOP might expand to something sort of like this (let ((i 10)) (tagbody hello (write-line "Hello") (decf i) (unless (zerop i) (go hello))))
2020-08-26T02:46:34Z Riastradh: aeth: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/tagbody.scm
2020-08-26T02:46:53Z Zipheir: aeth: Thanks for the explanation.
2020-08-26T02:47:20Z aeth: You won't notice the difference unless you create a closure inside of a DO. In CL, this will be the last value (so one *above* the stop point if you're iterating up from 0) while in Scheme this will capture the variable at the time of the iteration.
2020-08-26T02:49:08Z Riastradh: Zipheir: ^
2020-08-26T02:51:01Z mdhughes: You can always use https://paste.debian.net/1161239/ but it's ugly.
2020-08-26T02:51:42Z Zipheir: Riastradh: ty
2020-08-26T02:52:13Z aeth: Zipheir: This isn't quite idiomatic CL (e.g. + 1 instead of 1+ and '() instead of nil) because I wanted to make the DO* itself bilingual, assuming the Scheme also has a DO. Calling the closures can't be bilingual, though. (let ((closures (do* ((i 0 (+ 1 i)) (l '() (cons (lambda () i) l))) ((>= i 10) l)))) (mapcar #'funcall closures))
2020-08-26T02:52:22Z aeth: It's (10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10) in CL, though.
2020-08-26T02:52:54Z aeth: Now, r7rs only has DO, not DO*, but in order to not set I had to use DO* there, not DO
2020-08-26T02:53:20Z Riastradh: <yoda> there is no do*, only do
2020-08-26T02:54:01Z aeth: Actually, I think I can get away with a DO.
2020-08-26T02:55:13Z aeth: (let ((closures (do ((i 0 (+ 1 i)) (l '() (cons (lambda () i) l))) ((>= i 10) l)))) (mapcar #'funcall closures)) => (10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10) ; CL
2020-08-26T02:55:47Z aeth: (let ((closures (do ((i 0 (+ 1 i)) (l '() (cons (lambda () i) l))) ((>= i 10) l)))) (map (lambda (f) (f)) closures)) => (9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0) ; R7RS-small
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2020-08-26T02:56:40Z aeth: Zipheir: And that's the only really noticable difference between basing a macro on TAGBODY vs. basing it on tail recursion, at least afaik.
2020-08-26T02:57:28Z aeth: Riastradh: Thanks for the link
2020-08-26T02:57:53Z aeth: Riastradh: what convention is ?foo
2020-08-26T02:58:05Z aeth: (I can't put a question mark at the end without making that question incomprehensible)
2020-08-26T02:58:27Z Zipheir: aeth: Interesting
2020-08-26T02:59:08Z Zipheir: aeth: The CL version looks wrong.
2020-08-26T02:59:52Z Zipheir: aeth: I mean, the final value of i being closed in all of `closures'.
2020-08-26T03:00:09Z aeth: Zipheir: The CL version is iterative... it stops the iteration when (>= i 10) i.e. when (= i 10) i.e. the lexical binding of i that they all refer to is now 10 at the end. The Scheme version creates new bindings for i each iteration due to tail recursion.
2020-08-26T03:00:44Z aeth: But unless you're taking closures of a bound variable there, it won't make a difference and either can be treated as "pure functional" even though only R7RS-small's version is
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2020-08-26T03:01:41Z aeth: I don't think there's another example that illustrates the difference in terms of models of computation between the two languages, though. Scheme loves lambda. Lambda everything. Everything's in a lambda. Nothing's not a lambda.
2020-08-26T03:02:17Z aeth: On the other hand, in CL, goto's the ultimate lambda!
2020-08-26T03:03:20Z aeth: (Okay, CL loves lambdas too, just not in its fundamental iteration macros.)
2020-08-26T03:03:30Z Zipheir: aeth: OK, I think I understand.
2020-08-26T03:04:34Z Zipheir: aeth: CL's DO isn't a tail-loop in disguise, so there may not be an environment in which i assumes those values.
2020-08-26T03:05:14Z Zipheir: (For lexical binding purposes.
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2020-08-26T03:06:16Z aeth: Zipheir: Right, all iterations in Scheme are just tail recursion disguised with a bunch of macros... I guess unless call/cc is involved.
2020-08-26T03:06:47Z Zipheir: But those semantics for DO seem to screw up lexical binding.
2020-08-26T03:08:42Z aeth: Which semantics are the correct ones?
2020-08-26T03:08:54Z aeth: This is definitely going into the Airship Scheme book, though.
2020-08-26T03:09:33Z aeth: Appendix A, the most interesting part of any book.
2020-08-26T03:09:41Z Zipheir: Well, it seems that you get dynamic binding in this case.
2020-08-26T03:11:46Z Zipheir: aeth: CLHS says the iteration variables "are bound within the iteration", yet they aren't bound to their current values within the procedures in your example.  So either "bound" is the wrong term in the spec, or it's that within DO you lose lexical binding.
2020-08-26T03:12:16Z Zipheir: That's very bad, IMO.
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2020-08-26T03:14:52Z aeth: Zipheir: That's because, temporally speaking, the iteration is finished at the time the list is processed, giving them all the final value. On the other hand, Scheme saves a time capsule, a snapshot in a point of time. Does that sound familiar? Does that sound like another Scheme feature?
2020-08-26T03:14:58Z aeth: Schemers love time travel.
2020-08-26T03:14:58Z Zipheir: Of course, it could be very space-efficient.
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2020-08-26T03:15:42Z Zipheir: aeth: OK, that makes sense.
2020-08-26T03:18:57Z jcowan: Zipheir: I think it means they are bound within the lexical scope of the iteration body, not that they are bound within *each* iteration.
2020-08-26T03:19:46Z aeth: Now what's *really* confusing isn't the relatively simple DO, it's the fairly elaborate LOOP. I think we can all understand why i is 10 even though it never is 10 in the body of DO (if you were to give it a body, that is... technically my DO example has no body).
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2020-08-26T03:20:25Z aeth: But CL:LOOP is far more complicated, and this means, afaik, that it's unknown/unspecified if i is going to be 10 or 9 at the end and CLs might differ. Perhaps CLs could differ for DO, but then they're not using the straightforward TAGBODY implementation.
2020-08-26T03:24:42Z aeth: Unfortunately, I don't recall the exact part of LOOP that came up in #lisp years ago. It might be something like this (which is 10, like with DO) or it might have been something different. (mapcar #'funcall (loop :for i :from 0 :below 10 :collect (lambda () i)))
2020-08-26T03:25:33Z aeth: It will come up more often because LOOP has an ":of-type" clause, and if you use the wrong type you'll error "after the end" of the loop, e.g. (mapcar #'funcall (loop :for i :of-type (integer 0 9) :from 0 :below 10 :collect (lambda () i)))
2020-08-26T03:26:40Z aeth: Theoretically, Scheme using tail recursion wouldn't have that issue and thus would be able to set a tighter bound with the type.
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2020-08-26T07:36:31Z arew: is their a tutorial about chibi generics?
2020-08-26T07:36:52Z arew: The interface is suprisingly simple, I think I a missing something.
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2020-08-26T07:43:41Z amirouche: Zipheir: I think I will read tspl and then think about the scheme book
2020-08-26T07:46:28Z lockywolf: tspl is a horrible book, imo
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2020-08-26T07:47:09Z lockywolf: Its main benefit, I think is that it elaborates on some of the places of the Scheme that SICP omits.
2020-08-26T07:48:02Z amirouche: lockywolf: o/
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2020-08-26T07:48:34Z ecraven: I think their focus is different. SICP is only tangentially about Scheme, imho
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2020-08-26T07:49:34Z lockywolf: what does o/ mean? (it looks like an "o" hailing victory)
2020-08-26T07:50:28Z lockywolf: I can't wait till this one is released: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/software-design-flexibility
2020-08-26T07:51:07Z lockywolf: ow, o/ is a "high-five"
2020-08-26T07:51:31Z lockywolf: ecraven, this statement I agree with
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2020-08-26T07:54:00Z lockywolf: btw... is there a standard name for an OOP-related software pattern which works like this: "make a copy of an object, mutate a list of members according to a plist, and make the resulting object immutable"?
2020-08-26T07:54:39Z aeth: a plist in Scheme? :o
2020-08-26T07:54:54Z ecraven: lockywolf: I've seen this as "merging" an object with a list of updates
2020-08-26T07:55:13Z ecraven: to me, it is just creating a new object based on the old one and a list of updates/changes
2020-08-26T07:55:19Z lockywolf: ^^^
2020-08-26T07:55:23Z lockywolf: that's what it is
2020-08-26T07:56:09Z lockywolf: my object trees have ~1500 fields in total, and I need to mutate 1-2 of them and rerun the model
2020-08-26T07:56:28Z aeth: if you're creating a new object that's mutable and making it immutable, I don't care what it *is* called, but it *should* be called petrifaction
2020-08-26T07:56:39Z aeth: *especially* if it's a tree.
2020-08-26T07:56:48Z lockywolf: well, all objects are trees
2020-08-26T07:56:59Z lockywolf: sometimes of depth 0
2020-08-26T07:57:17Z lockywolf: ow, nope
2020-08-26T07:57:27Z lockywolf: there may be loops in the general case
2020-08-26T07:57:47Z aeth: My pun is referencing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrified_wood
2020-08-26T07:57:58Z lockywolf: but I dare to say that 'all systems' are trees
2020-08-26T07:59:06Z ecraven: lockywolf: in the end, it's "just" a functional data structure update, I'd say
2020-08-26T07:59:21Z ecraven: immutable, actually, even if it is implemented under the hood as copy-then-mutate
2020-08-26T08:00:44Z lockywolf: well, I don't really care how it is implemented so far...
2020-08-26T08:02:07Z lockywolf: "functional data structure update"...
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2020-08-26T08:02:49Z ecraven: maybe s/functional/immutable/
2020-08-26T08:03:29Z ecraven: anyway, something along those lines is what I'd call it
2020-08-26T08:04:58Z lockywolf: doing memoization with OOP is a funky thing
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2020-08-26T08:16:42Z lockywolf: I wonder whether there were CPU architectures with two-dimensional memory models.
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2020-08-26T08:35:01Z aeth: There's no difference between 1D and 2D, is there?
2020-08-26T08:36:11Z aeth: (* when discrete)
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2020-08-26T09:01:13Z lockywolf: well, no, in the sense that you can express one in terms of another
2020-08-26T09:03:45Z lockywolf: but I think that software engineering is still too much held captive by the one-dimensional way of thinking, which is a product of earlier cpu architectures rather than the nature of information
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2020-08-26T14:05:25Z Riastradh: aeth: ?foo marks it as a pattern variable, ??foo as a pattern variable in a macro generated by a macro, &c.
2020-08-26T14:07:12Z Riastradh: aeth: Here's one with three deep: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/syn-param.scm
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2020-08-26T14:41:47Z amirouche: lockywolf: You might be looking for "transient mutable", guile fash has them
2020-08-26T14:41:48Z amirouche: https://immutable-js.github.io/immutable-js/#batching-mutations
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2020-08-26T16:26:08Z Zipheir: Is there really no bytevector-u8-for-each ?
2020-08-26T16:27:38Z Zipheir: For some reason I assumed (scheme bytevector) i.e. the R6 bytevector lib had it.
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2020-08-26T20:15:26Z jcowan: no, it doesn't have any sequence functions worth mentioning.  SRFI 160 does, though.
2020-08-26T20:16:01Z aeth: Imo, you'd want sequence-generic functions for most operations, like in CL. Otherwise the namespace explodes with quite a few variations, and you can't mix them.
2020-08-26T20:16:31Z aeth: i.e. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_sequen.htm
2020-08-26T20:16:51Z aeth: The only problem is that Scheme's name cleanup makes some of these convenient names unavailable (e.g. map) because they're reserved for lists, not sequences in general.
2020-08-26T20:17:39Z aeth: Without something like that, each type of sequence (and there can be quite a few) needs its own variation of these procedures, and you wouldn't be able to mix different kinds in procedures like concatenate.
2020-08-26T20:17:49Z jcowan: Well, seq-* isn't so bad.
2020-08-26T20:18:01Z jcowan: I'm going to push map+ for generic functions
2020-08-26T20:18:22Z jcowan: Note that Haskell has the same problem for the same hysterical reasons: fmap should be map.
2020-08-26T20:21:20Z aeth: Two areas I think CL really handles things better than (standard) Scheme are numbers and sequences, which is probably because CL had an industry focus (i.e. get things done, efficiently) rather than academic.
2020-08-26T20:21:41Z aeth: Of the Schemes, MIT Scheme seems to have a lot of CLisms, at least with the numbers. Idk if it has CL-style sequences.
2020-08-26T20:22:25Z aeth: Meanwhile, a lot of Schemes seem to force you into only using double floats, which won't work for e.g. anything that interfaces with the GPU.
2020-08-26T20:23:14Z jcowan: And one of the few Schemes that does do single-floats, Racket, has pretty much abandoned them.
2020-08-26T20:23:35Z jcowan: However, SRFI 4 lets you do *arrays* of single-floats, which is what I think is really needed.
2020-08-26T20:23:39Z aeth: Right, Racket is abandoning single-floats in the transition to the Chez backend because Chez only uses doubles, iirc.
2020-08-26T20:23:46Z Riastradh: single-floats as a unit aren't that useful, more useful for vectorized operations.
2020-08-26T20:24:19Z aeth: jcowan: You do mostly need arrays of single floats, but once you have arrays of single floats, it helps to keep them as single float so you can be sure that they're not boxed. Although they're probably converted back to double float for the actual operations like +
2020-08-26T20:24:53Z jcowan: I think we will not see single-float support until 32-bit systems are dead and single-floats can be handled as immediates
2020-08-26T20:24:53Z aeth: I wouldn't want to do any GPU programming, including gamedev, in any GCed language that doesn't have single floats for this reason. (Boxing is a pain.)
2020-08-26T20:25:26Z aeth: 32-bit systems are dead, I only explicitly support 64-bit systems with my code and if someone tries to run it on a 32-bit system, well, OK, it'll probably work and cons like mad at the same time.
2020-08-26T20:25:41Z jcowan: By which time I hope that all 64-bit-only Schemes do nanboxing, though I can't seem to talk any implementers into it.
2020-08-26T20:26:53Z aeth: Riastradh: Right, single-floats are mostly kept in CFFI-friendly arrays for feeding into the GPU (or other arrays that will eventually end up in such arrays). But since they're only storing the single-float part, it does help to keep them unboxed for the intermediate calculations, at least the ones that you don't want to explicitly do in double-float.
2020-08-26T20:27:08Z aeth: Although again that's just ime with my game engine.
2020-08-26T20:27:16Z aeth: Different people will have very different tastes in design here.
2020-08-26T20:30:10Z autumn[m]: I do know someone who doesn't have access to x64 hardware (they're...not in the USA, I imagine that changes things)
2020-08-26T20:30:19Z aeth: Another approach, which works in some CL implementations, is to create your own box for doubles out of optimized structs (records in Scheme) and/or arrays which remove the box because they can only store doubles. As long as they stay in function scope, a smart compiler can remove the box. Inlining can help.
2020-08-26T20:30:21Z autumn[m]:  * I do know someone who doesn't have access to x64 hardware (they're...not in the USA or similar, I imagine that changes things)
2020-08-26T20:30:38Z autumn[m]: But they also don't care for Lisps IIRC. :P
2020-08-26T20:31:54Z aeth: Imo, most Lisps are only acceptable with > 32 bits because the tag bits are *really* noticable when you only have 32 bits (or 16 bits!). And that's probably one reason why #scheme is obscure and ##c isn't.
2020-08-26T20:34:18Z aeth: If you store every fixnum as a signed integer with a tag bit (just one bit is the minimum, most will use more) you will (in that best case) have 1/4 the unsigned integers available to you as the machine unsigned integer size for that arch. So instead of 4294967296 you get 1073741824 and this affects everything.
2020-08-26T20:35:09Z aeth: And even 4294967296 is small enough that you might see 4294967295 overflow in your software sometimes as a user!
2020-08-26T20:36:20Z Riastradh: arm32 is still quite common.  Even mips32 and powerpc32 on networking gear too.
2020-08-26T20:36:22Z aeth: (In case anyone is confused, 0 is included, so the largest number is n-1, not n)
2020-08-26T20:37:53Z aeth: Riastradh: But for consumer software, only ARM32 is relevant and it's (very slowly) on the way out. Unfortunately, C programmers dominate that world still, so they often force 32-bit OSes on 64-bit ARM because the machine doesn't have 4 GB RAM... and they don't care about the tag bit issue.
2020-08-26T20:38:55Z aeth: So it will take far too long for 32-bit to actually die
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2020-08-26T22:13:11Z dTal: I just realized that the Pyra (soon to ship) is 32 bit only
2020-08-26T22:13:22Z dTal: when I ordered it in 2016 that was no big deal
2020-08-26T22:13:27Z dTal: now it's a huge annoyance
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2020-08-26T22:20:26Z Zipheir: aeth: That's silly.  Lisps have been running on archs with 32 bits or fewer for decades.
2020-08-26T22:21:47Z aeth: Zipheir: They run, but they don't run well.
2020-08-26T22:22:51Z aeth: And with fewer than 32 bits you have to rethink how you structure the whole thing and the standard 32-/64-bit way of thinking, with tag bits, doesn't really work.
2020-08-26T22:23:23Z Zipheir: Yeah.
2020-08-26T22:24:56Z aeth: And since our computers are evolutions of 16-bit architectures, that really explains things. If 32-bit is mildly inconvenient compared to 64-bit, then 16-bit is "you need to be a genius to implement this"
2020-08-26T22:26:18Z aeth: Especially once you throw in very limited RAM and very slow clock rates.
2020-08-26T22:27:03Z Zipheir: That or we're not the programmers that our forbears were.
2020-08-26T22:29:08Z Zipheir: *forbearers, not bears who came before us.
2020-08-26T22:29:30Z aeth: As the act of programming itself gets simpler, the standards for what's impressive are raised considerably, but are still sometimes reached. In the Story of Mel[1], writing (non-graphical) Blackjack was an impressive demo of hardware. [1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html
2020-08-26T22:29:47Z aeth: These days, the game equivalent probably would have to be something like VR.
2020-08-26T22:30:52Z aeth: But even if you're just writing Blackjack in VR (1) you're doing so much more since you have to model the physics of the cards and make it interactive with your VR "hands", rather than just implementing the rules of the game and (2) it's still not that impressive! You probably would need to do a harder game!
2020-08-26T22:31:46Z Zipheir: But we're also living with a large population of people who are drunk on speed and getting fancy new electronics every six months.  There isn't a lot of motivation to do more with less.
2020-08-26T22:31:58Z Zipheir puts on the Koyaanisqatsi soundtrack.
2020-08-26T22:32:38Z aeth: Zipheir: That's why I said VR. The latency, framerate, and resolution requirements makes it one of the few areas where you do need to get everything out of the hardware you're using, just like the computers of decades ago.
2020-08-26T22:33:08Z aeth: But even in this case, you're probably using portable low-level APIs (like Vulkan) rather than writing directly to the hardware.
2020-08-26T22:33:09Z hendursaga: dTal: Have you found any Linux handheld that's better than the Pyra but of comparable price?
2020-08-26T22:33:43Z dTal: Ah, better at what?
2020-08-26T22:33:52Z dTal: Better at existing, sure :p
2020-08-26T22:34:23Z aeth: hendursaga: It's probably way more expensive, but the only thing I can think of for handheld Linux (and it's gaming-oriented, and they have a Windows version... I hope they didn't dump the Linux version) is https://www.smachz.com/
2020-08-26T22:35:10Z dTal: got myself one of them Cosmo Communicators, which has a great keyboard, but is plauged by issues in build quality, poor support, and poor software (mostly due to Android)
2020-08-26T22:35:36Z aeth: If the Smach Z had a physical keyboard underneath, it'd probably be very usable outside of gaming. It might double the height of the unit, though
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2020-08-26T22:37:02Z dTal: but the keyboard is so, so good that it practically makes up for all the other issues
2020-08-26T22:37:31Z dTal: I can touch type probably over 100 wpm. On a phone
2020-08-26T22:38:26Z hendursaga: dTal: QWERTY?
2020-08-26T22:38:42Z dTal: Absolutely, psion keyboard
2020-08-26T22:38:44Z dTal: google it
2020-08-26T22:40:25Z dTal: okay that's a lie I just took a test and got 61wpm
2020-08-26T22:41:20Z dTal: but I made a number of bad typos, I could probably do a lot better
2020-08-26T22:43:04Z dTal: and I just took the same test on my laptop and 66 wpm
2020-08-26T22:43:28Z dTal: so 1) the cosmo keyboard is as good as a laptop, and 2) I'm a worse typist than I thought I was. Oh well!
2020-08-26T22:44:44Z aeth: definitely #2 :-P
2020-08-26T22:44:55Z aeth: Last I measured my WPM, I was 80-100
2020-08-26T22:45:55Z dTal: I'm a faster typist when I'm in a flow
2020-08-26T22:46:05Z dTal: I find it unnatural to read random words from a screen
2020-08-26T22:46:43Z dTal: at least, it's measuring some aspect of cognitive performance independent of pure typing speed
2020-08-26T22:47:20Z dTal: alright, took it again and 69wpm. This is probably gonna be an obsession
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2020-08-26T23:14:24Z Zipheir: jcowan: Yeah, it's too bad we can't portably use SRFI 160 to work with bytevectors.
2020-08-26T23:15:06Z aeth: Zipheir: why not?
2020-08-26T23:16:07Z Zipheir: aeth: Because u8vectors and bytevectors are not necessarily the same thing. Grr.
2020-08-26T23:17:22Z aeth: ah
2020-08-26T23:17:26Z Zipheir: SRFI 160 says they "should" be the same type, but I'm not sure that's reliable enough.
2020-08-26T23:17:39Z aeth: Well, you can always just give up on portable Scheme.
2020-08-26T23:17:53Z Zipheir: Not when writing SRFI implementations I can't. :)
2020-08-26T23:18:11Z aeth: I've heard that the only way to get a Scheme to do what you want is to write your own.
2020-08-26T23:19:20Z aeth: xkcd 927
2020-08-26T23:19:38Z Zipheir: aeth: You know, I think it would be helpful to stop repeating the "Scheme is unportable, stop trying" lines.  It gets rather depressing and tedious after a few years.
2020-08-26T23:19:51Z aeth: it's a joke, but sure, I'll stop
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2020-08-26T23:22:54Z Zipheir: aeth: It's fine, I'm not feeling bothered by it.  It's just the response I've come to expect whenever I bring up portable Scheme questions.
2020-08-26T23:23:55Z aeth: I see such jokes on par with e.g. MAKING AN UPCASE JOKE IN A CL CHANNELf
2020-08-26T23:24:02Z aeth: s/CHANNELf/CHANNEL/
2020-08-26T23:24:07Z aeth: But I guess that's pretty cliche too
2020-08-26T23:24:14Z aeth: I need more material.
2020-08-26T23:24:56Z aeth: Please somebody, write a memeable SRFI for the sake of /r/schemememe
2020-08-26T23:26:28Z Zipheir: Being in mathematical circles in the 40s must have been like that--the response to everything would just be "Don't bother. Gödel!"
2020-08-26T23:27:31Z aeth: Actually, everyone was bothering and the incompleteness theorem told them not to, which is much sadder.
2020-08-26T23:28:23Z Zipheir: OK, 50s, maybe.
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2020-08-26T23:43:58Z jcowan: Zipheir: AFAIK the only system that makes that separation between u8vectors and bytevectors is Guile, and the Guilers agree that it was a mistake.  I'd
2020-08-26T23:44:05Z jcowan: not worry about it.
2020-08-26T23:44:32Z jcowan: AFAIK it only matters to the predicates; all other procedures handle either type
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2020-08-26T23:53:14Z aeth: Guile is weird, anyway. I guess Guile and Racket can afford to be weirder than most Schemes because they are large so they don't need to run portable code, while most of the rest do.
2020-08-26T23:53:25Z aeth: But that attitude has changed, and now portability is more in style.
2020-08-26T23:53:51Z aeth: But imo if there's one outlier, I'd just ignore it and they'll be forced to conform eventually.
2020-08-26T23:55:04Z jcowan: As I say, they are 99% compliant. I think the only reason they care at this point is to decide whether to write #u8(...) or #vu8(...).  In Larceny, that's a per-port switch.
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2020-08-27T07:35:38Z arew: more in style?
2020-08-27T07:35:43Z arew: not sure about that.
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2020-08-27T07:40:26Z aeth: arew: Has portable Scheme ever been this in style?
2020-08-27T07:40:44Z aeth: Maybe in the 90s, I wasn't programming back then
2020-08-27T07:45:36Z aeth: It looks like most Schemes can use the R6RS package manager or the R7RS package manager (or both) to install R7RS packages.
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2020-08-27T09:21:41Z aeth: Now my Unicode works again! Now I can talk about e.g. §7.1 of r7rs.pdf again.
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2020-08-27T10:20:44Z thblt: Hey #scheme, on #emacs we're wondering why two identical lambdas aren't equal?  I skimmed through R7RS but found nothing.
2020-08-27T10:20:58Z thblt: Eg (equal? (lambda () 1) (lambda() 1))) evals to #f
2020-08-27T10:20:58Z thblt:  
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2020-08-27T10:33:10Z mdhughes: lambdas are unique objects, and might not have source or anything else to compare except a raw pointer, which is different.
2020-08-27T10:38:00Z thblt: mdhughes: thanks!  Just realized I missed the part on eqv? doc that states that procedure comparison is partially undefined.
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2020-08-27T12:19:59Z arew: mdhughes: what do you think of https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx ?  is it an abstraction accross several rendering API (opengl, vulkan, ...) or something else?
2020-08-27T12:22:33Z jcowan: arew: Seems clear to me that it's an abstraction
2020-08-27T12:22:35Z mdhughes: Looks like it abstracts the native rendering, but I don't see any input, audio, timers, etc.
2020-08-27T12:22:55Z jcowan: Well, none of those things are graphic rendering
2020-08-27T12:24:03Z arew: ty!
2020-08-27T12:26:25Z mdhughes: Sure, but you can't even make a window in it. You need SDL, GTK, or native program wrapper.
2020-08-27T12:26:46Z arew: yes.
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2020-08-27T12:27:41Z mdhughes: I would guess from the examples shown that it's aimed at AAA (or wannabe) game studios, where they need to recycle the graphics but can put a dev on each platform client.
2020-08-27T12:30:24Z mdhughes: Ah, Mojang's using it on their mobile "minecraft" clients. The real one is still LWJGL, of course.
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2020-08-27T12:57:47Z arew: I prolly just window shopping, nonetheless it seems like an interesting project if one wants to create cross platform games / apps that require a gpu
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2020-08-27T14:17:49Z arew: jcowan: regarding finger trees, I am working with Kevin W. it seems they want to submit to SRFI process, finger tree and also ideque, iset, and possibly others. All those based on finger trees. Instead, I think we should only ship as SRFI the measures for those data structures.
2020-08-27T14:18:08Z arew: ref: https://github.com/kevinwortman/Scheme-immutable-data-structures
2020-08-27T14:18:15Z arew: what do you think ?
2020-08-27T14:20:56Z jcowan: I'm not sure what you mean by "the measures for those data structures"?
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2020-08-27T14:21:52Z Riastradh: Why a SRFI?  Why not an implementation?
2020-08-27T14:22:08Z arew: it is an implementation, and maybe a SRFI.
2020-08-27T14:23:08Z arew: measure is a record that defines the behavior (in the spirit of comparators) of the finger tree, with different measure records you obtain different persistent data structures
2020-08-27T14:23:16Z foof: make it a PEP and confuse people
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2020-08-27T15:15:27Z jcowan: I think finger-tree is an open and shut SRFI.
2020-08-27T15:17:59Z jcowan: The ideque implementation already has space for it in SRFI 134 and should simply supersede the old stuff there.
2020-08-27T15:18:32Z Riastradh: What makes finger trees exciting in ways that, e.g., bounded-balance binary trees are not?
2020-08-27T15:18:51Z jcowan: The willingness of someone to write a SRFI for them.
2020-08-27T15:18:57Z Riastradh: I tried to read the paper on them but it was so mired in typological abstractions that I lost my lunch and had to buy a map to find it again.
2020-08-27T15:19:11Z jcowan: I hope it was a conformal map.
2020-08-27T15:19:26Z jcowan: (as opposed to a merely formal one)
2020-08-27T15:19:58Z mdhughes: What's the point of an immutable complex data structure?
2020-08-27T15:20:52Z Riastradh: It was very derivative, anyway.
2020-08-27T15:22:32Z gwatt: mdhughes: I would assume the same point as immutable simple data structures. You can use them concurrently or in a dynamic algorithm.
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2020-08-27T15:24:05Z mdhughes: But how do you build it? Injecting a ton of data at construction is an antipattern. And you can just choose not modify a structure if it's shared…
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2020-08-27T15:25:29Z Riastradh: ...why is building an immutable data structure by injecting data after construction any different from building a mutable data structure by injecting data after construction?
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2020-08-27T15:29:35Z Riastradh: (mdhughes is probably still ignoring me and not likely to answer, or really engage with a subject they've already decided is silly without bothering to study it)
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2020-08-27T15:30:34Z gwatt: mdhughes: why is injecting large data at construction an anti-pattern? If you have the data, give it.
2020-08-27T15:32:46Z gwatt: mdhughes: also, an immutable data structure should have ways to create a copy with different/new/deleted data
2020-08-27T15:36:50Z arew: the point of finger tree is that they are generic
2020-08-27T15:37:28Z arew: they can implement ideque, indexed list (buffer) or set or map (apparantly) with a single code base and a few for specific procedures one liners
2020-08-27T15:37:33Z Riastradh: For the onlookers: an immutable (or persistent) data structure lets you efficiently create a new data structure, sharing most of the structure and memory of the old one, with some changes like inserting an element or removing an element.  `Efficiently' typically means O(log n), or amortized O(1).
2020-08-27T15:37:52Z Riastradh: arew: Sure, you can do that with a bounded-balance binary tree too.
2020-08-27T15:38:31Z arew: you make me doubt then.
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2020-08-27T15:52:15Z Zipheir: arew: You can do that with a basic binary tree with even less code.  Just hope it doesn't get too unbalanced :)
2020-08-27T15:52:58Z Zipheir: I'm looking very intently at Patricia trees right now.  They're really fantastic for integer sets.
2020-08-27T15:53:07Z Riastradh: critbit trees
2020-08-27T15:53:15Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/critbit
2020-08-27T15:53:26Z Riastradh: Work great for strings.
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2020-08-27T16:02:28Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Wow.  Cool work.
2020-08-27T16:03:29Z Riastradh: I made a cute variation with better cache utilization by having wider fanout than binary (but only fixed-length keys, not variable-length keys) at <https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/cradix>.
2020-08-27T16:04:00Z arew: l...isp curse.
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2020-08-27T16:04:07Z Riastradh: (Could be adapted to variable-length keys but it would be kind of a pain.)
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2020-08-27T16:05:04Z Riastradh: (The wider fanout does not, however, imply inefficient use of memory; the nodes are only as wide as they need to be, without using space for children that aren't there, organized with a bitmap of which child slots are actually populated.)
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2020-08-27T16:15:33Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I'm trying to fully grasp that bitmap optimization ("buddy compression", in some sources) for search trees.  Is it carefully described anywhere?
2020-08-27T16:15:53Z Riastradh: I dunno.
2020-08-27T16:15:55Z Zipheir: Wait, maybe that's something different.
2020-08-27T16:16:14Z Riastradh: It's just compressing #(foo #f bar baz #f quux #f #f) into 10110100 #(foo bar baz quux).
2020-08-27T16:16:55Z Zipheir: Right.
2020-08-27T16:18:25Z Zipheir: But then the insert and merge algorithms need to take that compression into account and determine when to merge/split bitmaps.
2020-08-27T16:19:02Z Riastradh: The transformation between the two forms is generic.  The search tree algorithms don't really care; they can just treat it as an array with nulls.
2020-08-27T16:22:29Z Riastradh: The search tree algorithm sees it as an 8-element (or 16-element or 32-element or whatever) tuple no matter how it works under the hood.  Insert decides to create a new node with 16-way fanout, and only two nonnull children?  Great, the bitmapped node abstraction does that, and under the hood it looks like 1000010000000000 #(a b) instead of #(a #f #f #f #f b #f #f ... #f).
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2020-08-27T16:22:45Z Riastradh: Either way the search tree algorithm can ask `gimme the child at index 4'.
2020-08-27T16:23:07Z Zipheir: That seems clear.
2020-08-27T16:25:49Z Zipheir: And if a subnode is to be created later, the bitmapped representation can be mapped to the needed number of fully-allocated nodes, I guess.
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2020-08-27T17:52:39Z jcowan: arew: Immutable general sets are a hole in the current SRFIs.  I tried to fill it with SRFI 153 by layering over SRFI 146, but after I fat-fingered away an afternoon's work on it, I didn't have the heart to go back, and I wound up withdrawing 153.
2020-08-27T17:53:19Z jcowan: s/Immutable/Ordered immutable
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2020-08-27T18:51:55Z Riastradh: jcowan: booooooooounded-balance!
2020-08-27T18:52:25Z jcowan: All contributions of implementations gratefully accepted.
2020-08-27T18:53:30Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/bb-tree.scm (fixing the balance criterion left as an exercise for the reader; see <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/src/runtime/wttree.scm?id=bfdb32552803a12584e675c92d1afe17ed1e1f07> and <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/src/runtime/wttree.scm?id=52937962c147124a68a089fe4a9a178fbbab43c7> for inspiration)
2020-08-27T18:53:30Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/VuP5TkBl5h
2020-08-27T18:53:30Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/urOIUHbozO
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2020-08-27T18:55:29Z Riastradh: (I like critbit trees too but I don't have any Scheme code for them)
2020-08-27T18:55:48Z Riastradh: (and they're fundamentally for strings of bits, not for arbitrary total orderings like bounded-balance trees)
2020-08-27T18:58:46Z arew: Riastradh: I look into it once I am done with finger tree.
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2020-08-27T19:04:22Z Riastradh: arew: The important paper is:  Salvador Roura, `A new method for balancing binary search trees', in Fernando Orejas, Paul G. Spirakis, and Jan van Leeuwen (eds.), Proceedings of the International Colloquium on Automata, Languages, and Programming---ICALP 2001, Springer LNCS 2076, 2001, pp. 469--480.  https://sci-hub.tw/https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-48224-5_39
2020-08-27T19:04:57Z Riastradh: (there is also a large bibliography of wrong papers on slightly different balancing criteria)
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2020-08-27T19:24:43Z arew: That is exactly the reason I fear balanced trees.
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2020-08-27T19:24:54Z arew: I mean those kind of balanced trees.
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2020-08-27T19:25:09Z arew: I guess not all balanced tree rely on s/magic/math/ numbers.
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2020-08-27T19:45:05Z Riastradh: arew: That's why I like the logarithmic criterion -- the math is much simpler and much more plausibly correct.
2020-08-27T19:45:15Z Riastradh: (Also why I like critbit trees.  And why I'm suspicious of finger trees.)
2020-08-27T19:55:43Z Zipheir: arew: At least it's not black magic hashtable math...
2020-08-27T19:57:32Z Zipheir: arew: Would you prefer a _no_ math structure which you balance when you feel like it, or on Fridays?
2020-08-27T19:59:13Z Zipheir: (Of course, that changes nothing.  In the lyrics of Tom Lehrer, "that's mathematics".)
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2020-08-27T20:08:34Z aeth: arew, mdhughes: No need to abstract over graphics APIs and add an overhead, at least if you're not supporting consoles. Vulkan runs on everything, whether Apple wants it to or not.
2020-08-27T20:09:34Z aeth: This is why Godot is moving to exclusively use Vulkan at some future point.
2020-08-27T20:10:26Z aeth: And anyone who doesn't care about running on everything will probably just use DirectX
2020-08-27T20:11:19Z aeth: (which thanks to wine, still runs on everything, just not natively... you really can't escape portability)
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2020-08-27T23:50:53Z mdhughes: There's some value to a non-Vulkan renderer if your device is slower, and it saves you writing the Vulkan setup code which is annoying. I wouldn't bother, but I'm a company of one, so I picked a library (SDL) I can build on fast.
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2020-08-28T00:04:39Z aeth: mdhughes: Right, if you have a lot of resources (so basically just UE4 and Unity), it's probably best to have a separate Vulkan and Metal renderer, but for the vast, vast majority of cases, just using Vulkan and relying on MoltenVK is probably going to be good enough... which puts these abstracted renderers in an odd place.
2020-08-28T00:05:12Z aeth: And for 2D, yeah, you have even more options, like just using SDL
2020-08-28T00:06:27Z aeth: (And from the other side of things, if you can't really get a Vulkan renderer working, OpenGL 3.3 will run almost anywhere, at least if you don't want to also target mobile.)
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2020-08-28T14:26:41Z amirouche: \o/
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2020-08-28T15:51:44Z jcowan: Does anyone want a kind of easy and dumb Scheme project to noodle around on when brane is mostly fried?  I'm looking for someone to write code to decode and encode the legacy (i.e. non-UTF-8) encodings of WHATWG
2020-08-28T15:52:21Z wasamasa: like what, iso-8859-1?
2020-08-28T15:52:29Z jcowan: The good news is that it's mostly tables, and what is not, WHATWG has spelled out in their patented "specs are code written in English" style.  Which is annoying AF when you want to know what's going on, but good for this
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2020-08-28T15:52:55Z jcowan: Yes.  Half of them are just smple 8-bit table driven encodings, but the rest do need algorithms as well as tables, and they give you the tables and the algos.
2020-08-28T15:53:29Z wasamasa: I wonder how much sense it would make to rip out CCL from emacs and use it somewhere else for encoders/decoders
2020-08-28T15:54:07Z jcowan: What does CCL have to do with emacs???
2020-08-28T15:54:27Z wasamasa: not the kind of CCL you think of: https://emacsninja.com/posts/code-conversion-language.html
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2020-08-28T15:55:35Z jcowan: "What is the biggest problem you foresee for computing in the 1980s?"  "There are only 17576 TLAs."  "Oh, no problem!  We can always go to ETLAs!"
2020-08-28T15:55:50Z jcowan: (actual conversation, at least the first two lines)
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2020-08-28T17:08:01Z lockywolf: Scheme w
2020-08-28T17:08:08Z lockywolf: orkshop going on
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2020-08-28T20:01:36Z aeth: orkshop? why not orcshop? I guess either spelling works.
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2020-08-28T21:08:10Z dTal: Hm - has anyone tried implementing multimethods in Scheme? I'm picturing some sort of macro that a) decorates a function with argument type checking, and b) implements the selection heuristics.
2020-08-28T21:15:42Z Riastradh: approximately a third of all Schemers have written a CLOS-style multimethod dispatch system
2020-08-28T21:15:57Z aeth: probably more if you only count the major ones
2020-08-28T21:16:04Z aeth: (more proportionally, of course)
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2020-08-29T00:08:57Z arew: rudybot: what you gonna do when we come for you?
2020-08-29T00:09:02Z rudybot: arew: speaking of which, we pulled in the deadline and completely changed the requirements so we're gonna need you to come in over the weekend
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2020-08-29T00:10:51Z arew: rudybot: I bet you are.
2020-08-29T00:10:54Z rudybot: arew: well, I bet you are off by one.
2020-08-29T00:36:07Z autumn[m]: rudybot: what are you?
2020-08-29T00:36:07Z rudybot: autumn[m]: learning curve? what are you struggling with in nixos?
2020-08-29T00:36:16Z autumn[m]: I see
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2020-08-29T00:54:45Z aeth: rudybot: I can come over this weekend, where are you?
2020-08-29T00:54:48Z rudybot: aeth: speaking of which, we pulled in the deadline and completely changed the requirements so we're gonna need you to come in over the weekend
2020-08-29T00:54:59Z aeth: rudybot: yes, but where?
2020-08-29T00:55:03Z rudybot: aeth: yes, but where all the critical design decisions went the other way.
2020-08-29T00:55:14Z aeth: rudybot: are you talking about R7RS?
2020-08-29T00:55:14Z rudybot: aeth: what are you talking about i made a very portable r7rs scheme sudoku solver
2020-08-29T00:55:41Z autumn[m]: rudybot: dwarf fortress?
2020-08-29T00:55:42Z rudybot: autumn[m]: It's like a more usable dwarf fortress
2020-08-29T00:55:42Z aeth: oh no, rudybot associates "R7RS" with people defending the concept of portable Scheme
2020-08-29T00:55:55Z aeth: rudybot: what is your favorite game?
2020-08-29T00:55:57Z rudybot: aeth: what's /your/ favorite game?
2020-08-29T00:56:04Z aeth: touché
2020-08-29T00:56:12Z autumn[m]: okay now I'm wondering what exactly is like a more usable dwarf fortress
2020-08-29T00:56:13Z autumn[m]: hehehe
2020-08-29T00:56:19Z aeth: autumn[m]: probably Rimworld
2020-08-29T00:56:24Z autumn[m]: oh probably
2020-08-29T00:56:49Z aeth: rudybot: is Scheme portable?
2020-08-29T00:56:50Z rudybot: aeth: Is there any high performance array processing type library in portable Scheme?
2020-08-29T00:59:10Z aeth: rudybot: why don't you write one?
2020-08-29T00:59:14Z rudybot: aeth: I don't really understand the point of SRFI-19 and I hope someone can enlighten me. For instance, why have two separate time/date types that seem to represent the same thing? And why are there arithmetic operations only on one of them? There doesn't seem to be any convient way of, for example, finding the date eight weeks from now. I could write the code to do that, but then I don't know what benefit am I getting from u
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2020-08-29T01:03:18Z autumn[m]: rudybot: does the arithmetic compile to native code?
2020-08-29T01:03:19Z rudybot: autumn[m]: j-invariant: you want a parser for arithmetic expressions. Google "infix arithmetic expressions parser" does not help?
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2020-08-29T01:03:44Z autumn[m]: rudybot: not really
2020-08-29T01:03:47Z rudybot: autumn[m]: my site's on my vps but it's not really a site yet
2020-08-29T01:05:11Z aeth: rudybot: can you show us your site anyway?
2020-08-29T01:05:11Z rudybot: aeth: Seems to work fine (add site:picasaweb.google.com to your query, and it'll show you _only_ picasa results).
2020-08-29T01:05:51Z aeth: RIP picasa, 2002-2015. https://killedbygoogle.com/
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2020-08-29T01:35:55Z gmaggior: Hi. Anyone using srfi-105 (curly infix expressions) in coding?  Any feedback about?
2020-08-29T01:36:52Z Riastradh: heh
2020-08-29T01:36:54Z Riastradh: unlikely
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2020-08-29T01:43:30Z jcowan: gmaggior: People always try to get new syntaxes for Lisp to catch on, right back to John McCarthy in 1960.  But Lispers never accept them.
2020-08-29T01:56:46Z aeth: gmaggior: the problem with SRFIs 105, 110, etc., is that they're not very useful unless your tooling supports them
2020-08-29T02:00:11Z aeth: I don't think anyone manually indents or manages parentheses.
2020-08-29T02:00:11Z autumn[m]: i read an unsettling story based on the notion of stuff killed by google a while ago. https://qntm.org/person
2020-08-29T02:01:06Z aeth: gmaggior: SRFI 105 doesn't look particularly bad, though. Worst case scenario, auto-indent will treat the first element as a function call. Otherwise, things won't really mess up, and one liners should work fine
2020-08-29T02:01:45Z aeth: tools will probably want to turn f(x) into f (x) though
2020-08-29T02:02:12Z aeth: not anywhere near as problematic as most alternative syntaxes, though
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2020-08-29T02:22:03Z jcowan manually indents and maintains parentheses, actually
2020-08-29T02:22:15Z jcowan: I only use tooling to check what matches what when I've made a mistake
2020-08-29T02:24:15Z aeth: jcowan: do you still use ed?
2020-08-29T02:24:20Z erkin: He uses ex. :-P
2020-08-29T02:24:28Z aeth: traitor to ed, I guess. :-P
2020-08-29T02:24:29Z Riastradh: why would you make a mistake
2020-08-29T02:24:30Z erkin: I'm too spoilt. I can't live without paredit, auto-indent and parenthesis highlight.
2020-08-29T02:24:49Z jcowan: I am willing to trade a little standardosity for a little convenience
2020-08-29T02:25:07Z aeth: I think jcowan is probably the only person who could write an editor in Scheme that could completely replace the existing editor experience... because ed/ex is simple/basic enough.
2020-08-29T02:25:08Z jcowan: I switch to vi mode to bounce on the % key to see where a paren-match went wrong
2020-08-29T02:25:29Z jcowan: Well, anyone could write it.  I'd be the only one to use it.
2020-08-29T02:25:31Z aeth: ooooh, make an ed SRFI
2020-08-29T02:25:43Z erkin: I actually use ed for little things like "replace foo with bar between lines x and y and delete line z"
2020-08-29T02:25:52Z erkin: But I can't imagine using it for programming.
2020-08-29T02:26:06Z jcowan: I specced an "ex extended" editor called exx, coming out of my experience trying to spec some ex features to be added to sam -d.
2020-08-29T02:26:09Z aeth: I've used ed before, just to know how to use it, but I'd use it for s/foo/bar/g kind of things
2020-08-29T02:26:15Z jcowan: I do write ed scripts
2020-08-29T02:26:20Z Riastradh: why's everything gotta be a srfi, can't it just be an i
2020-08-29T02:26:40Z jcowan: Makes sense to me in this case.  The Posix standard for ed is fine.
2020-08-29T02:27:20Z erkin: ed is also super nifty when your connection quality is down the drain and you really need to change something.
2020-08-29T02:27:35Z aeth: Riastradh: This could actually be a SRFI as part of a "scsh"-like suite of SRFIs
2020-08-29T02:27:39Z jcowan: Indeed.  But ex does all these things just as well
2020-08-29T02:28:07Z jcowan: Well 170 is really close to finalization, and the process SRFI is designed but not implemented.
2020-08-29T02:28:18Z erkin: Is the only difference between ex and vi that the latter has a visual mode?
2020-08-29T02:28:28Z jcowan: They are a single program
2020-08-29T02:28:48Z jcowan: so I type "vi" in ex mode, or "gQ" in vi mode to toggle
2020-08-29T02:28:52Z erkin: Yeah but is the rest of the user experience identical?
2020-08-29T02:29:14Z jcowan: What does that even mean?  A line editor doesn't provide the same experience as a screen editor.
2020-08-29T02:29:30Z aeth: Riastradh: Everything does look like it has to be a SRFI... There might be more SRFIs than everything else (but most aren't in snow-fort). And the "everything else" is mostly under a few namespaces, like chibi, r6rs, rapid, and slib. https://snow-fort.org/pkg
2020-08-29T02:29:42Z aeth: a lot of pfds, too
2020-08-29T02:30:07Z jcowan: Don't forget racket and chicken, which haef a lot of stuff
2020-08-29T02:30:21Z aeth: yes, but this is an r7rs channel :-P
2020-08-29T02:30:29Z jcowan: pffft
2020-08-29T02:31:02Z erkin: I was asking if being a screen editor the only thing that sets vi apart from ex. As in, do they have different sets of commands? Different approaches to buffers? Different restrictions and features?
2020-08-29T02:32:07Z jcowan: different commands, restrictions, features, yes.
2020-08-29T02:32:26Z jcowan: Canonical ex/vi has only a single buffer.  Sam has as many as you want.
2020-08-29T02:32:38Z erkin: Got it
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2020-08-29T03:41:47Z aeth: jcowan: which R7RS-large docket would the JSON SRFI go in?
2020-08-29T03:42:24Z aeth: oh, it's lime docket, it's already on https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/ColorDockets.md
2020-08-29T03:42:27Z jcowan: Lime, per ColorDockets.md
2020-08-29T03:42:27Z aeth: nevermind
2020-08-29T03:42:53Z aeth: added 2 days ago, apparently
2020-08-29T03:43:04Z jcowan: I went through all the recent SRFIs and made appropriate updates to the dockets
2020-08-29T03:43:18Z jcowan: both missing ones, and ones that needed updating from r7rs-work pages to SRFI pages
2020-08-29T03:43:38Z aeth: when's the lime docket?
2020-08-29T03:44:44Z jcowan: Well, some time after the Yellow Docket, I suppose.
2020-08-29T03:44:58Z aeth: I'm just wondering how much time I'd have to specify the .SXP file format formally
2020-08-29T03:45:22Z jcowan: Plenty.
2020-08-29T03:45:27Z aeth: OK, thanks.
2020-08-29T03:46:00Z aeth: it would essentially just be the intersection of multiple Lisp languages, with a few changes so "nobody wins", like e.g. probably using "true" and "false"
2020-08-29T03:46:24Z aeth: I'm still leaning towards plists instead of alists
2020-08-29T03:47:14Z jcowan: I have a good plist spec now.  I can't remember if anyone gave me an implementation for it yet
2020-08-29T03:48:51Z jcowan: I don't now what the .sxp goals are.
2020-08-29T03:48:55Z jcowan: s/now/know
2020-08-29T03:51:31Z aeth: jcowan: basically just the same scope as JSON (or others, e.g. TOML, I haven't looked into those yet), but in s-expressions, except no null, possibly most/all of the numeric tower, and with plists (or plist tails) instead of JSON objects. It would include comments, though. The fanciest part might be which string escapes to include.
2020-08-29T03:51:38Z aeth: Not too fancy like XML or YAML
2020-08-29T03:51:47Z jcowan: Have you looked at my CoreSexp yet?
2020-08-29T03:52:02Z aeth: no
2020-08-29T03:52:40Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/CoreSexps.md
2020-08-29T03:53:08Z jcowan: it's meant to have universal semantics and simple syntax
2020-08-29T03:53:23Z aeth: it might be somewhat similar in scope
2020-08-29T03:53:47Z aeth: My interest is more in implementing a CL and Scheme implementation (and hoping someone else is interested enough for elisp, Clojure, C, etc.)
2020-08-29T03:54:00Z aeth: Well, I mean, I probably could write a C one, too. It doesn't sound too hard.
2020-08-29T03:55:08Z aeth: oh, wait, the numeric tower part would be hard
2020-08-29T03:55:25Z jcowan: The nice thing is you don't havce to support anything but the bare minimum of syntactic forms
2020-08-29T03:56:09Z jcowan: Because the decoder can always return an "unknown object" response
2020-08-29T03:56:33Z jcowan: or object, rather
2020-08-29T03:57:51Z jcowan: an unknown-object object
2020-08-29T04:00:51Z aeth: I personally wouldn't use "sexp" instead of "sxp" in names because of the Scunthorpe problem since not everything is HTTPS even today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem
2020-08-29T04:01:35Z jcowan: ints, floats, strings, bytevectors and tagged versions of same
2020-08-29T04:01:41Z jcowan: also comments and whitespace
2020-08-29T04:01:48Z jcowan: Good point, I'll fix that
2020-08-29T04:02:41Z Riastradh: clbuttic mistake
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2020-08-29T07:26:22Z gmaggior: jcowan, thanks for the reply on SRFI-105
2020-08-29T07:30:00Z gmaggior: aeth, thanks for the reply on the SRFI-105. Can you elaborate on 'tooling'? I got you were referring to "indenter/beautifier", etc but are there other kind of tools? (I am a new to the Lisp world)
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2020-08-29T07:33:54Z aeth: as far as syntax-changing SRFIs is concerned, that would be what is affected
2020-08-29T07:34:12Z aeth: they're mostly automatic-formatting via editors, rather than a thing that is run on code after the fact
2020-08-29T07:36:00Z aeth: There are various ways to manage parentheses. Emacs by default will tell you which ( you're closing with a ) and tell you if a ) isn't closing anything. Emacs can also automatically insert a ) for every ( and do some other fancy things with managing code at the expression level, e.g. given (+ 1 1) you could cut ("kill" in Emacs terminology) the whole expression at once pretty quickly
2020-08-29T07:36:31Z aeth: Then the third thing (the second add-on) that's fairly common in Emacs is rainbow parens, where it essentially colors the parentheses to help you visually match them at a glance.
2020-08-29T07:36:59Z aeth: Other editors can do similar things, especially vim, but Emacs tends to get most of the attention in the Lisp communities because Emacs is written in a Lisp.
2020-08-29T07:38:00Z aeth: The indentation rules are fairly elaborate, too, because of macros (especially LOOP, but Scheme doesn't have a popular equivalent for that, so that helps with indenting Scheme), so most people just rely on auto-indentation.
2020-08-29T07:38:57Z aeth: (I only really mention LOOP because these tools tend to be aimed at all Lisps.)
2020-08-29T07:41:06Z aeth: It's no big deal to tell a tool to recognize {} in addition to () and in fact, many Schemes have [] as equivalent to () so most tools that handle Lisp syntax are able to support e.g. [+ 1 2 3]
2020-08-29T07:42:10Z aeth: But if you write {1 + 2 + 3} then it might syntactically treat it as a function call, so e.g. {1 +\n<indent>2 +\n<indent>3} would probably indent 2 to line up with the +, not the 1, as if 1 was a function call
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2020-08-29T07:48:47Z aeth: That's all I can think of right now...
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2020-08-29T07:56:04Z gmaggior: aeth, long answer thanks! I take notes. (btw: I am a Vim user, although my Emacs/Evil configuration barely matches my Vim's. EmacsLisp is one of the reasons of my Lisp interest)
2020-08-29T07:59:57Z aeth: good, vim should work, as should evil... at least you didn't say Atom or something :-p
2020-08-29T08:00:15Z gmaggior: ;)
2020-08-29T08:00:16Z aeth: nothing against those editors, I just doubt that they've gotten much attention with Lisp/Scheme
2020-08-29T08:02:53Z aeth: I think the two popular add-ons in Emacs to do automatic parentheses management (i.e. automatically inserting #\) and treating things based on expressions instead of lines) are called paredit and parinfer. I wouldn't be surprised if the vim equivalent is also called "paredit"
2020-08-29T08:04:07Z autumn[m]: I think there's even parinfer for atom and like, kakoune, i was looking at it recently
2020-08-29T08:05:47Z gmaggior: aeth, just to speak, there are add-ons for Lisp support both in Atom (atom-slime) and Visual Studio Code. I know nothing about their quality though.
2020-08-29T08:06:01Z aeth: yeah, that's the issue
2020-08-29T08:06:57Z aeth: In the Lisp communities, at least the ones on IRC, almost everyone uses Emacs and almost everyone else uses vim, so those tools in other editors probably don't get anywhere near as much use or attention, although they might be fine.
2020-08-29T08:07:13Z aeth: Racket has its own editor, DrRacket. Some others also have their own editor.
2020-08-29T08:08:57Z aeth: My guess is that the editors that aren't as popular (maybe even DrRacket!) might use slightly incorrect indentation rules in some edge cases.
2020-08-29T08:09:18Z aeth: where "correct" is really "agrees with everyone else's auto-indentation"
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2020-08-29T08:17:46Z arew: aeth: what is the company / website you were discussion last week or the week before that does desktop computers and servers? s76 or something.
2020-08-29T08:18:25Z aeth: https://system76.com/
2020-08-29T08:18:29Z autumn[m]: system76?
2020-08-29T08:19:12Z aeth: Some Dell XPS models of laptop also come with Linux, and I think very recently some Thinkpads might, too.
2020-08-29T08:23:28Z arew: ty
2020-08-29T08:27:48Z arew: the amd threadripper is cost so much :/
2020-08-29T08:28:26Z arew: it is not available in local computer shops. I mean you can buy it separatly, but not as part of a full setup.
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2020-08-29T09:07:39Z aeth: arew: yes they cost a lot, and system76 has a lot of markup, too, since it looks like they haven't lowered prices since the initial shortages of Ryzen 3000
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2020-08-29T09:40:50Z arew: still, it is competitive compared to similar offering as dedicated server it cost only 20 months of rent with similar setup.
2020-08-29T09:41:36Z arew: the only problem that remains is a) whether there is proper cooling b) whether the quality of the cpu is up to the mark, I mean whether it can stand 2 years of work.
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2020-08-29T11:55:33Z autumn[m]: ...maybe it's optimistic but when i think about hardware purchasing choices i sure hope any machine i bought would last me longer than just a couple years
2020-08-29T11:56:10Z lockywolf: two years is usually the time hardware is supported
2020-08-29T11:56:52Z lockywolf: it may still work, but things that can be made incompatible will be made incompatible
2020-08-29T11:58:19Z autumn[m]: i mean i have a thinkpad x230 that still runs moooostly fine and that's not new
2020-08-29T11:58:21Z autumn[m]: granted i don't run windows
2020-08-29T11:58:24Z autumn[m]: but
2020-08-29T11:58:36Z autumn[m]: well, I don't run windows on it*
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2020-08-29T16:11:39Z Zipheir: autumn[m]: Not so much "optimistic" as "sane".
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2020-08-29T16:44:01Z jcowan: aeth: Racket could solve that problem by providing support for #lang elisp
2020-08-29T16:44:16Z jcowan: and then it could run various Emacs tools very nicely
2020-08-29T16:44:41Z Riastradh: Still using my Thinkpad W530 from 8 years ago.
2020-08-29T16:46:42Z Riastradh: During that time I replaced the battery and keyboard, and doubled the RAM to 32 GB.  (Also filled in the two extra SSD bays.)
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2020-08-29T18:01:06Z wasamasa: jcowan: lol, how would that even work, by reimplementing emacs?
2020-08-29T18:02:59Z jcowan: No, it could do what Guile did.
2020-08-29T18:06:12Z wasamasa: so not much :P
2020-08-29T18:06:27Z wasamasa: guile not embedded inside emacs gives you barely enough rope to write a test suite
2020-08-29T18:07:02Z wasamasa: you could maybe make doctor work by writing some extra string processing procedures
2020-08-29T18:08:38Z wasamasa: see https://emacsninja.com/posts/state-of-emacs-lisp-on-guile.html for details
2020-08-29T18:08:42Z wasamasa: performance is awful, too
2020-08-29T18:09:33Z wasamasa: I mean, come on, they left out division :D
2020-08-29T18:10:16Z wasamasa: anyway, Robin Templeton showed up a bunch of times on #emacs and promised to keep up the work
2020-08-29T18:10:56Z wasamasa: I suspect if a spec is written, it will end up describing how emacs works in great detail
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2020-08-29T19:30:25Z aeth: autumn[m]: I try for 5-6 years, which is normally fine, but for (flagship!) smartphones is twice the life they're designed for and they start falling apart by then, and haven't received OS updates in years by then.
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2020-08-29T19:56:48Z jcowan: wasamasa: Do you think that paredit could run in Guile?
2020-08-29T19:57:06Z wasamasa: that would at the very least require a working buffer implementation
2020-08-29T19:57:19Z wasamasa: probably syntax tables as well
2020-08-29T19:58:07Z jcowan nods
2020-08-29T19:58:25Z jcowan: I put together a sketch of an Emacs-inspired but not compatible buffer implementation
2020-08-29T19:58:48Z wasamasa: and if you're unlucky, then emulation of a command loop as well
2020-08-29T19:59:30Z wasamasa: also, it relies on working indentation :D
2020-08-29T20:03:15Z jcowan nods
2020-08-29T20:07:25Z aeth: wasamasa: and then there's https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/36659403/
2020-08-29T20:08:30Z aeth: porting elisp to CL should be easier because CL was designed to be used to port "legacy" Lisps like elisp to it (even though elisp was intentionally archaic and came after CLtL iirc).
2020-08-29T20:08:32Z Riastradh: jcowan: paredit runs in Edwin (at least, an old port of paredit; haven't updated it in a while)
2020-08-29T20:09:05Z Riastradh: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/edwin/paredit.scm
2020-08-29T20:09:06Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if you could run Airship Scheme in a CL Emacs before Guile Emacs is really ready.
2020-08-29T20:10:28Z wasamasa: well, until I see a PoC, I don't believe in emacs running on top of CL
2020-08-29T20:10:48Z wasamasa: guilemacs has one and even though it's mostly relying on a patched up emacs to work, it works
2020-08-29T20:14:31Z aeth: wasamasa: the only reason we don't have one already is because of the CL obsession with writing everything 100% in CL, which GNU Emacs is not, no matter which Lisp it uses as its scripting language.
2020-08-29T20:14:48Z wasamasa: yeah, that's why I don't expect it to happen, ever :D
2020-08-29T20:15:04Z wasamasa: emacs imitations, sure, porting emacs in one go, hahaha
2020-08-29T20:18:10Z jcowan: Emacs-and-X means several different things
2020-08-29T20:18:27Z jcowan: Guile Emacs means "run Elisp in Guile, also allow Guile Scheme"
2020-08-29T20:19:10Z jcowan: but lots of people tend to think it means "redo all Elisp code in Scheme and only support Scheme going forward"
2020-08-29T20:19:16Z jcowan: (which is absurd)
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2020-08-29T22:01:25Z Zipheir: jcowan: Hah, I like that idea, actually.  But then I don't have any favorite Emacs modes that I'd die without.
2020-08-29T22:02:51Z wasamasa: evil/magit/org
2020-08-29T22:03:02Z wasamasa: though I'm doing without evil and magit on my windows work machine
2020-08-29T22:03:04Z wasamasa: just org
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2020-08-30T08:10:07Z arew: hello #scheme!
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2020-08-30T08:49:37Z ecraven: ;)
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2020-08-30T10:44:13Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-08-30T11:45:08Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-08-30T12:15:36Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-08-30T12:22:05Z arew: rudybot: la si do re mi fa sol la la la...
2020-08-30T12:22:08Z rudybot: arew: *do (or doh in tonic sol-fa),[2] re, mi, fa, so(l), la, and si (or ti), see below).
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2020-08-30T12:55:58Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-08-30T13:24:21Z mdhughes: sing.ss: https://paste.debian.net/1161832/
2020-08-30T13:25:11Z mdhughes: Next, record 14 samples and play them in that order.
2020-08-30T13:25:44Z mdhughes: Put it on a microcontroller with a tinny speaker, and post it outside someone's window.
2020-08-30T13:27:40Z wasamasa: this is italian, not english
2020-08-30T13:27:44Z wasamasa: rudybot: do re mi
2020-08-30T13:27:44Z rudybot: wasamasa: "Do Re Mi generally works with numerical properties that can be incremented and decremented, and it works with properties that can take on one of a number of values. In fact, it is even more general than that: you can use it to associate nearly any function or pair of functions with the arrow keys and the mouse wheel."
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2020-08-30T13:33:03Z mdhughes: French, surely, not English or Italian.
2020-08-30T13:36:01Z mdhughes: Huh, it's "sol" officially, I learned "so" from my piano teacher. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfège
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2020-08-30T13:44:04Z jcowan: "sol la" easily becomes "so la"
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2020-08-30T13:46:03Z nerdypepper: hiya, how exactly do i make a pair (a . (b c d)) given 'a and '(b c d)?
2020-08-30T13:46:33Z rain1: cons
2020-08-30T13:47:10Z nerdypepper: oh my
2020-08-30T13:47:19Z nerdypepper: (a . (b c d)) is the same as (a b c d)
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2020-08-30T13:55:18Z jcowan: "Making a pair" and "adding something to the front of a list" are the same operation, because that's how you build lists.
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2020-08-30T14:08:06Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-08-30T16:41:37Z arew: rudybot is in singing mood.
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2020-08-30T17:20:09Z jcowan: An R6RS question: how do you get access to the simple conditions that were used to make a compound condition?
2020-08-30T17:24:48Z jcowan: Duh, it's `simple-conditions`.
2020-08-30T17:24:59Z jcowan self-maroooooooons
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2020-08-30T18:08:52Z Zipheir: Riastradh: In your SRFI 43 implementation, you use an interesting tactic with the definitions of some looping procedures; the procedure itself is returned as the body of a letrec which binds the tail-calling loop form.
2020-08-30T18:09:07Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Is this style, or is there some deep magic here?
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2020-08-30T18:12:03Z Riastradh: heh
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2020-08-30T18:12:41Z arew: what happened to cpu + gpu on a single socket ? \cc aeth
2020-08-30T18:13:00Z Riastradh: Zipheir: It's a gruesome workaround to reduce consing in Scheme systems with compilers that leave a bit to be desired.
2020-08-30T18:13:10Z arew: At some point gpu and cpu were supposed to on a single socket, that is why amd bought ati.
2020-08-30T18:13:18Z Riastradh: At the time this probably gave a measurable performance boost in Scheme48.  I would not endorse that style today.
2020-08-30T18:15:08Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Thanks.  I figured it was something like that.
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2020-08-30T18:20:47Z aeth: arew: Modern discrete GPUs use more power and need more cooling than a CPU does... and they're huge chips. On the other hand, modern discrete GPUs are unnecessary for a lot of tasks, and a large part of the marketshare is either APUs or Intel iGPUs.
2020-08-30T18:21:19Z aeth: arew: But AMD stopped integrating GPUs on its high-end desktop/workstation CPUs because there's just no room with all of the cores it's trying to put in there.
2020-08-30T18:22:10Z aeth: The room will return in a few shrinks, 5 nm or 3 nm. iGPUs on high end desktop/workstation CPUs have always just been there because there's the space (and they're there in case something goes wrong), and most people with high end deskops/workstations use discrete GPUs.
2020-08-30T18:22:49Z aeth: You need them on all laptops, but laptop chips are made separately with AMD's Zen.
2020-08-30T18:25:17Z aeth: I guess AMD doesn't think there's a large enough market of people doing high-end CPU compute on high-end desktops/workstations without any GPU compute (e.g. machine learning) or GPU acceleration (e.g. a well-written program for visual media artists) anywhere.
2020-08-30T18:25:29Z aeth: Maybe #scheme is an exception, but it's not a large market. :-)
2020-08-30T18:26:29Z aeth: And when I say there's no room, I mean that I wouldn't be surprised if like 40% or so of your high-end Intel desktop CPU is GPU, even if you never use it.
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2020-08-30T18:29:49Z aeth: Chiplets don't have any free space for the GPU unless you put the GPU on its own chiplet (that takes 1/4 your cores if Threadripper or 1/2 if Ryzen) or integrate it on the I/O die chiplet (a realistic option afaik, but weak). At the moment, iirc AMD APUs (CPU+GPU) are monolithic and limited to up to 8 cores.
2020-08-30T18:44:58Z arew: ah! oh!
2020-08-30T18:45:00Z arew: ty!
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2020-08-30T19:24:39Z jcowan: Hey, ho, nobody home ....
2020-08-30T19:24:43Z jcowan: ooops, ww
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2020-08-31T04:16:53Z arew: Chez Scheme 9.5.4 was released https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/releases/tag/v9.5.4
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2020-08-31T05:35:36Z mdhughes: Nice!
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2020-08-31T08:06:49Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-08-31T08:13:13Z edgar-rft: rudybot: shut up
2020-08-31T08:13:14Z rudybot: edgar-rft: if it makes all these not-so-closet nazis shut up, I may even welcome it...
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2020-08-31T08:14:12Z edgar-rft: rudybot: you think that #scheme is full of nazis?
2020-08-31T08:14:26Z rudybot: edgar-rft: is lainchan OK or is it full of nazis and literal pedophiles like most chans?
2020-08-31T08:16:00Z edgar-rft: rudybot: wait, you say that #scheme is full of nazis *and* pedophiles?
2020-08-31T08:16:03Z rudybot: edgar-rft: is lainchan OK or is it full of nazis and literal pedophiles like most chans?
2020-08-31T08:17:27Z edgar-rft: rudybot: yes, but *why* do you say that #scheme is full of nazis and pedophiles?
2020-08-31T08:17:34Z rudybot: edgar-rft: is lainchan OK or is it full of nazis and literal pedophiles like most chans?
2020-08-31T08:18:49Z edgar-rft: rudybot: you think that by repeating it over and over again you could establish it as a *fact* that #scheme is full of nazis and pedophiles?
2020-08-31T08:18:54Z autumn[m]: rudybot: whats lainchan
2020-08-31T08:18:58Z rudybot: edgar-rft: Is it because of all the pedophiles on the internet?
2020-08-31T08:18:59Z rudybot: autumn[m]: join #lainchan
2020-08-31T08:19:06Z autumn[m]: :|
2020-08-31T08:19:08Z autumn[m]: rudybot: no
2020-08-31T08:19:10Z rudybot: autumn[m]: no one has asked for a calm film before
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2020-08-31T09:22:33Z mdhughes: lainchan's just a typical anon board, there's a couple programming channels there.
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2020-08-31T11:28:07Z arew: I am scheming a survey about search engine users, chime in: https://bimestriel.framapad.org/p/6phzfohmhs-9iot?lang=en
2020-08-31T11:28:13Z arew: users/uses
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2020-08-31T11:45:43Z wasamasa: le sudden french
2020-08-31T11:47:14Z wasamasa: I fixed a typo
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2020-08-31T11:52:59Z arew: ty =)
2020-08-31T11:54:07Z arew: btw I found a threadripper setup at 6000euros in a local shop \o/
2020-08-31T11:54:21Z wasamasa: is that supposed to be cheap?
2020-08-31T11:54:30Z arew: cheaper than 10k :)
2020-08-31T11:54:34Z wasamasa: well indeed
2020-08-31T11:54:45Z wasamasa: I'm just used to buying used thinkpads for close to nothing
2020-08-31T11:55:47Z arew: yeah, I am still not sure what to do. The thing is that the threadripper setup is better than what I could rent for the same price during two years. So I guess it is a good investement. Also 6K is for the 64core setup, it is less than 5k for the 32 core setup.
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2020-08-31T11:58:17Z arew: the home server setup with 32 core and 64g of ram without ssd is 3k5 euros.
2020-08-31T11:58:38Z arew: without grapic card.
2020-08-31T11:58:42Z wasamasa: what's it gonna do, crunch search indexes all day long?
2020-08-31T11:58:52Z arew: yeah :)
2020-08-31T11:59:49Z arew: Alan Kay said something along the lines "if you want to invent the future, you need to hardware of the future" I guess it is a good opportunity to try that meme.
2020-08-31T12:00:08Z arew: One might have said the same about VR stuff and FGPA...
2020-08-31T12:00:21Z wasamasa: I still find it hard to imagine how serious work must have looked like before cheap commodity hardware was an option
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2020-08-31T12:08:55Z mdhughes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMYiktO0D64  and part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9aVOIuKVUc
2020-08-31T12:09:38Z mdhughes: The shorter answer is: We had to think about our problems and solve them without just typing randomly at a machine and hitting build.
2020-08-31T12:10:30Z wasamasa: more funny operating systems and specialty hardware I guess
2020-08-31T12:11:00Z mdhughes: Those are IBM/360s, IIRC, nothing funny or specialty about them.
2020-08-31T12:11:32Z wasamasa: sure, show a kid an amiga and watch their reaction when you tell them this is how their favorite oldschool album was made
2020-08-31T12:11:58Z mdhughes: I used CMS at college a while, it's fucking horrible but very practical.
2020-08-31T12:12:15Z wasamasa: or that people used solaris for 3d rendering :D
2020-08-31T12:12:56Z mdhughes: More likely Atari ST, which had MIDI and good music software. Amiga got used for video, but you'd never rely on one to do timing-sensitive work or anything that couldn't crash.
2020-08-31T12:13:51Z mdhughes: But that's all a decade after "commodity hardware" existed.
2020-08-31T12:14:13Z wasamasa: I said cheap :D
2020-08-31T12:14:46Z mdhughes: Sub-$10K is cheap.
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2020-08-31T12:31:42Z ManDay: "mdhughes> The shorter answer is: We had to think about our problems and solve them without just typing randomly at a machine and hitting build."     Those were crazy times, huh
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2020-08-31T12:37:17Z ManDay: well that video was informative :-D
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2020-08-31T12:52:54Z amirouche: those magnetic tapes are lol
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2020-08-31T14:05:21Z mdhughes: That's my secret power, I still think before typing sometimes.
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2020-08-31T16:56:55Z aeth: I never think before typing but I sometimes type Ctrl+u and wipe out what I write before sending it. Sometimes.
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2020-08-31T17:10:20Z arew: true story?
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2020-08-31T17:13:04Z Zipheir: aeth: Hah, yes.  In my case it may be a paragraph-long reply which gets ^U'd.
2020-08-31T17:13:46Z Zipheir: (Or just subjected to so much ad-hoc editing that it becomes incomprehensible.)
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2020-08-31T17:18:02Z Zipheir: "It's a lofty edifice, only the architect omitted the stairs." --Emerson, reading his own writing  (Vaguely-remembered quote, because it's apparently impossible to find quotes with Google search these days.)
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2020-08-31T18:16:09Z aeth: Every now and then I think enough before typing that I'll write in *scratch* in Emacs (switching to M-x text-mode first) and then paste it in.
2020-08-31T18:16:40Z aeth: and, yeah, verbatim search in Google is pretty hard ever since Google broke its own syntax rules with Google+ and removed the + operator
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2020-08-31T18:17:43Z aeth: It still does attempts at refining a search with - and quotes and stuff better than DDG, but I miss old Google
2020-08-31T18:18:18Z aeth: Unless DDG fixed it, it doesn't even recognize - (it ignores it!) so if you do -stackoverflow you only get stackoverflow results!
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2020-08-31T18:54:43Z arew: ahah -everything is everything :D
2020-08-31T18:55:28Z arew: I mean in logic the not operator has a special meaning, in the sense that the space it describe is possibly more infinite than AND'ed words
2020-08-31T18:56:09Z arew: In the first version of my search engine, I was forbidding -word in queries without positive words.
2020-08-31T18:56:27Z arew: it is too easy to DoS the system otherwise
2020-08-31T18:59:54Z aeth: arew: no, I mean the query `javascript dom event handler` just to use search suggestions to get a "random" programming query... has stackoverflow as the 4th result on DDG. That's not bad, sometimes the top 4 results are all stackoverflow.
2020-08-31T19:00:04Z arew: the things I figured after that is: the size of the data, number of pages etc.. does not matter. What matters is the document frequency of the least common word in query, that's the weak spot of the search engine (at least my current design). Especially in domain specific corpus where the query is a single word that is the most common word in the corpus e.g scheme.
2020-08-31T19:00:06Z aeth: now search `javascript dom event handler -stackoverflow` and the top 3 results are stackoverflow. DDG dropped the -
2020-08-31T19:00:18Z aeth: and it thinks you're searching for the thing you wanted to avoid
2020-08-31T19:00:35Z aeth: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=javascript+dom+event+handler+-stackoverflow&ia=web
2020-08-31T19:00:51Z arew: I do not know why ddg does that, google did not that previously.
2020-08-31T19:01:02Z aeth: again, ignore the particular example, I used search suggestions to get there. The important part is `-stackoverflow` is interpreted as `stackoverflow` on DDG
2020-08-31T19:01:16Z aeth: in this case doing exactly the opposite of what you want
2020-08-31T19:01:44Z arew: aeth: it works like that https://duckduckgo.com/?q=javascript+dom+event+handler+-%22stackoverflow%22
2020-08-31T19:02:24Z arew: I still do not know why it does not work the way you describe
2020-08-31T19:02:38Z aeth: arew: that didn't always work ime, but it's still not good because notice how the results are very different, and less useful, than the original without `-"stackoverflow"`. It removed the most useful non-SO results!
2020-08-31T19:03:15Z arew: fun fact, the lake of parenthese also help to reduce the complexity of the query hence eta to results. Also ddg does not display the approximate count of results.
2020-08-31T19:03:16Z aeth: for me, for the one without the -, #1 and #3 are w3schools and #2 is developer.mozilla.org, which is probably what you want for anything browser-related
2020-08-31T19:03:22Z arew: s/lake/lack/
2020-08-31T19:03:29Z aeth: and with the `-"stackoverflow` the results are all low-quality stuff
2020-08-31T19:03:50Z aeth: My guess is SO answers cite Mozilla and W3schools, so DDG in some way associates them with "stackoverflow"
2020-08-31T19:04:47Z aeth: (oh, weird, it does actually have one mozilla.org result further down, just not the relevant one)
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2020-08-31T19:04:53Z arew: aeth: unrelated but fun: https://mdn.io/domeventhandler
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2020-08-31T19:17:43Z arew: well google still does not like minus anything: https://www.google.com/search?q=-arew
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