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What can be used instead? 2020-07-01T12:55:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2020-07-01T12:56:47Z xelxebar joined #scheme 2020-07-01T12:56:47Z Riastradh: open-output-file, write-bytevector? 2020-07-01T12:56:51Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-01T12:56:53Z midre joined #scheme 2020-07-01T12:57:38Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T12:57:56Z klovett joined #scheme 2020-07-01T12:59:40Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T13:00:18Z klovett joined #scheme 2020-07-01T13:11:32Z lockywolf_: ow... 2020-07-01T13:11:33Z lockywolf_: right 2020-07-01T13:11:36Z lockywolf_: thank you 2020-07-01T13:16:09Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-01T13:19:43Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-01T13:21:02Z TCZ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T13:21:24Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-01T13:23:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-01T13:28:00Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T13:28:15Z klovett joined #scheme 2020-07-01T13:33:05Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-01T13:38:54Z montxero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T13:57:51Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-01T13:59:18Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2020-07-01T14:12:42Z jcowan: lockywolf_: Don't forget to close the file! A clean approach is: (with-output-to-file pathname (lambda () (write-bytevector bv))). 2020-07-01T14:13:05Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-01T14:15:59Z nikita` quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-01T14:17:13Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-01T14:17:35Z elflng joined #scheme 2020-07-01T14:19:39Z lockywolf_: jcowan, is it really clean? r7rs says something about exception unsafety in this case 2020-07-01T14:20:59Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera) 2020-07-01T14:21:15Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-01T14:21:34Z gwatt: lockywolf_: with-output-to-file should be implemented on top of dynamic-wind, so an exception should be accounted for 2020-07-01T14:21:52Z gwatt: unless exceptions are not treated as other continuations 2020-07-01T14:24:13Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-01T14:26:07Z knuckles joined #scheme 2020-07-01T14:28:00Z plugd joined #scheme 2020-07-01T14:29:13Z plugd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T14:30:07Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera) 2020-07-01T14:36:12Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T14:36:53Z whiteline joined #scheme 2020-07-01T14:37:44Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-01T14:37:57Z ahungry joined #scheme 2020-07-01T14:39:19Z Retropikzel quit (Quit: Vision[0.10.3]: i've been blurred!) 2020-07-01T14:39:37Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-01T14:48:16Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2020-07-01T14:49:15Z jcowan: gwatt: It actually can't, because there is no guarantee that the code won't be reentered by call/cc. What is more, in Lisps (unlike most languages) an exception handler runs in the context of the raiser, not the catcher. (This is not true for a handler in guard: guard emulates the behavior of now-standard terminating exceptions.) 2020-07-01T14:49:46Z jcowan: Dynamic-wind does not actually provide unwind-protect (aka try-finally) behavior. 2020-07-01T14:49:59Z lockywolf_: if anybody is interested https://gitlab.com/Lockywolf/srfi-pictures 2020-07-01T14:51:35Z lockywolf_: the text I haven't written, but the code seems to be working 2020-07-01T14:57:13Z amirouche: hey lockywolf_ was you paper accepted ? 2020-07-01T14:58:44Z amirouche: lockywolf_: regarding rogers-bytevector, instead of having it in full in the 199.scm file I would have created a rogers-bytevector.scm that I would read with `read` procedure. Anyway, great idea for an SRFI. 2020-07-01T15:05:40Z theseb joined #scheme 2020-07-01T15:25:22Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T15:26:47Z Retropikzel quit (Quit: Vision[0.10.3]: i've been blurred!) 2020-07-01T15:33:08Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-01T15:33:44Z Retropikzel quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-01T15:34:08Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-01T15:38:02Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-01T15:39:51Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-01T15:41:16Z Retropikzel quit (Quit: Vision[0.10.3]: i've been blurred!) 2020-07-01T15:47:57Z lritter joined #scheme 2020-07-01T15:49:47Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2020-07-01T15:52:42Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-01T15:56:47Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T15:57:18Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-01T15:57:52Z cantstanya joined #scheme 2020-07-01T15:59:52Z jcowan: BTW, you can see the HTML rendered at http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://gitlab.com/Lockywolf/srfi-pictures/-/raw/master/srfi-sicp-pictures.html 2020-07-01T16:00:21Z jcowan: (this will work with any raw HTML that is served as text/* instead of application/html) 2020-07-01T16:03:23Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T16:03:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-01T16:04:44Z skapata joined #scheme 2020-07-01T16:06:27Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:09:04Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:14:36Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-01T16:17:43Z jcowan: that is when there is some content there.... 2020-07-01T16:25:03Z tryte_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-01T16:25:17Z tryte joined #scheme 2020-07-01T16:25:41Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-01T16:32:26Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-01T16:34:38Z drakonis joined #scheme 2020-07-01T16:35:12Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-01T16:56:51Z Retropikzel quit (Quit: Vision[0.10.3]: 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(string-replace "needle" "new-needle" "haystack full of needles") -> "haystack full of new-needles" 2020-07-02T07:59:09Z ecraven: or alternatively, does chibi offer such a function built-in? 2020-07-02T08:00:03Z ecraven: `string-replace' in srfi-130 does *not* do this, unfortunately :-/ 2020-07-02T08:03:05Z epony quit (Quit: reconfigure) 2020-07-02T08:03:44Z raingloom joined #scheme 2020-07-02T08:06:03Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-02T08:14:28Z mdhughes: I normally use regex for that. 2020-07-02T08:19:15Z mdhughes: Writing your own is simple but annoying, you can't just replace in place, you need a growable buffer or make a list and join it afterwards. 2020-07-02T08:19:53Z amirouche: there is something like that in guile... 2020-07-02T08:19:55Z mdhughes: I looked thru my lib and I don't have an example handy, I think they all got replaced by irregex/replace-all. 2020-07-02T08:20:03Z amirouche: I think it is called substitute. 2020-07-02T08:24:02Z whiteline joined #scheme 2020-07-02T08:29:34Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T08:31:18Z zig: a good case for a srfi i guess ;) 2020-07-02T08:33:34Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T08:40:36Z mdhughes: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-115/srfi-115.html and http://synthcode.com/scheme/irregex/ 2020-07-02T08:41:27Z mdhughes: (note that I only really use PCRE, I've been writing regex since the Reagan administration) 2020-07-02T08:51:07Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-02T09:02:07Z epony joined #scheme 2020-07-02T09:03:52Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T09:05:55Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2020-07-02T09:05:59Z fizzie: I imagine you could also just compose string-contains and string-replace from SRFI 13 to do that. 2020-07-02T09:06:02Z fizzie: (define (string-substitute haystack needle new-needle) (let ((i (string-contains haystack needle))) (if i (string-replace haystack new-needle i (+ i (string-length needle))) haystack))) to replace just the first match, and so on. 2020-07-02T09:06:37Z ecraven: yea, just that chibi only has srfi 130, not 13.. but I did exactly that, seems to work ok 2020-07-02T09:13:48Z tramplefoot joined #scheme 2020-07-02T09:14:08Z tramplefoot left #scheme 2020-07-02T09:24:41Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-02T09:29:28Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T09:48:54Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2020-07-02T09:49:38Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-02T09:49:46Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-02T10:07:21Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-02T10:07:30Z whiteline joined #scheme 2020-07-02T10:18:17Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-02T10:25:25Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T10:25:51Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2020-07-02T10:26:29Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-02T10:51:42Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T10:56:06Z fadein quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-02T10:58:07Z raingloom joined #scheme 2020-07-02T11:00:54Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-02T11:09:54Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-02T11:18:31Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T11:20:27Z stepnem joined #scheme 2020-07-02T11:25:04Z TCZ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-02T11:59:52Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T12:06:12Z nikita` quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-02T12:07:34Z TCZ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-02T12:16:17Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2020-07-02T12:52:48Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-02T13:02:44Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-02T13:09:31Z midre joined #scheme 2020-07-02T13:12:00Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T13:13:46Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T13:14:49Z midre joined #scheme 2020-07-02T13:42:57Z Retropikzel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-02T13:45:35Z jcowan: All the string SRFIs differ only in minor points; unfortunately, the authors don't all agree what the minor points are! 2020-07-02T13:48:26Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:09:04Z lritter joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:09:23Z zaifir: We should just ditch strings and use (scheme text). 2020-07-02T14:09:29Z zaifir: (ha ha, only serious) 2020-07-02T14:09:57Z jcowan: You certainly get no argument from me. But there are still a whole lot of APIs that only understand strings, unfortunately. 2020-07-02T14:10:27Z jcowan: Scheme just isn't very good at this stuff and probably never will be, given the backward compat issues. 2020-07-02T14:14:57Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-02T14:16:25Z theseb joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:17:19Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:17:32Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-02T14:17:34Z Retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:18:11Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:22:25Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:23:01Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:27:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:29:51Z Riastradh: backward compat is unschemely 2020-07-02T14:29:55Z Oxyd: Why does Scheme need to worry about backward compatibility anyway? This isn't C++ where every backward-incompatible decision is vetoed by IBM who want to run C++ on their 50-year-old mainframes. 2020-07-02T14:30:20Z Oxyd: Most Scheme programs are people's hobby projects or university homework anyway. :P 2020-07-02T14:31:03Z erkin: Oxyd: Tell that to CL programmers who lose their shit when they can't run LISP 1.5 programs. ;-P 2020-07-02T14:31:17Z Oxyd: This isn't CL, now is it? 2020-07-02T14:31:26Z erkin: Hey, I'm not complaining. 2020-07-02T14:31:57Z Oxyd: Also the two most popular dialects of Scheme – Racket and Clojure – aren't exactly backward-compatible either. Almost as if there was a pattern… :P 2020-07-02T14:32:12Z erkin: Clojure is Scheme? 2020-07-02T14:32:40Z Riastradh: Oxyd: Racket is pretty good at compatibility with #lang. 2020-07-02T14:33:12Z erkin: Honestly, I don't care about backwards compatibility as much as I care about compatibility between different implementations. 2020-07-02T14:33:30Z Oxyd: Riastradh: You're confusing the language with the interpreter. I meant #lang racket, obviously. 2020-07-02T14:33:58Z Riastradh: Oxyd: I'm not confusing anything. My point is that Racket has a good mechanism for handling multiple different languages in one system. 2020-07-02T14:39:01Z jcowan: Racket can be a Scheme, but Clojure certainly is not a Scheme (though it is a Lisp). 2020-07-02T14:39:32Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:39:43Z Oxyd: Maybe Scheme should not be a Scheme. 2020-07-02T14:39:59Z erkin: Scheme is dead, long live Scheme 2020-07-02T14:41:41Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:42:59Z jcowan: Scheme has always been dead. 2020-07-02T14:43:43Z Oxyd: And making it not-dead would be backward-incompatible. 2020-07-02T14:44:42Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-02T14:45:01Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:50:01Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T14:51:57Z knuckles joined #scheme 2020-07-02T14:59:19Z skapata joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:09:23Z zaifir: Oxyd: What specific backward-compatibility issue is bugging you? 2020-07-02T15:09:49Z Oxyd: Mutable strings for one. 2020-07-02T15:10:28Z Oxyd: Making cons pairs immutable also seems to be a good idea. 2020-07-02T15:11:33Z TCZ2 joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:12:03Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:12:17Z badkins_ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:12:52Z rgherdt_ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:13:42Z lpsmith_ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:14:00Z whiteline_ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:14:15Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:14:32Z xlei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:14:32Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:14:32Z shymega quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:14:32Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:14:32Z Ekho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-02T15:14:37Z TCZ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:15:02Z __shymega__ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:15:13Z c7d9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:15:14Z lpsmith quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:15:26Z xlei joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:15:49Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-02T15:18:02Z zaifir: Oxyd: Both would be nice, I think, although mutable lists and strings are hardly a reason to pronounce Scheme "dead". 2020-07-02T15:18:27Z zaifir: Oxyd: We have (scheme text) and (scheme ilist) in R7RS large, so immutable lists and strings are available. 2020-07-02T15:18:30Z jcowan: R7RS already has immutable lists and strings as separate types. 2020-07-02T15:18:32Z raingloom joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:18:41Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:18:46Z fadein joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:18:47Z zaifir: jinx 2020-07-02T15:19:15Z TCZ2 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-02T15:19:17Z Ekho joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:19:39Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:19:40Z Oxyd: Good. So now for R8RS, make the immutable variants the default and the mutable ones non-default. 2020-07-02T15:19:49Z zaifir: Oxyd: Why? 2020-07-02T15:20:51Z Oxyd: Because it's the sensible choice. 2020-07-02T15:20:52Z zaifir: Oxyd: It seems sufficient to provide full support for the immutable variants. 2020-07-02T15:20:58Z Oxyd: Is there even a reader syntax for immutable strings and immutable pairs? 2020-07-02T15:21:29Z zaifir: Oxyd: That's what I mean by "full support". 2020-07-02T15:21:40Z wasamasa: just add a hack like "use strict" 2020-07-02T15:21:52Z zaifir: Ouch. 2020-07-02T15:21:57Z wasamasa: :D 2020-07-02T15:21:59Z Riastradh: #lang strict 2020-07-02T15:22:11Z __shymega__ is now known as shymega 2020-07-02T15:22:49Z gwatt: Oxyd: I think implementations are free to treat a literal string or pair as immutable 2020-07-02T15:22:57Z erkin: Are there any Scheme implementations that do persistent data structures (the Clojure way)? 2020-07-02T15:23:14Z gwatt: erkin: racket has pfds 2020-07-02T15:23:15Z Oxyd: Or just make it the default and add hacks to revert back. Or just don't add hacks at all. It's not like updating code after the switch would be difficult. And you'd only need to do that if you updated your interpreter. 2020-07-02T15:24:01Z wasamasa: lol 2020-07-02T15:24:01Z zaifir: Oxyd: Are you talking about standard Scheme, or a specific implementation? 2020-07-02T15:24:10Z erkin: gwatt: Neat. 2020-07-02T15:24:12Z wasamasa: you clearly missed out on the great flame wars around python2->3 2020-07-02T15:24:22Z Oxyd: zaifir: Standard Scheme. 2020-07-02T15:24:24Z wasamasa: print becoming a function shouldn't have been a big deal, but it was 2020-07-02T15:24:50Z zaifir: gwatt: Too bad it's not compliant to read literal strings as texts and literal lists as ilists. 2020-07-02T15:24:59Z Oxyd: I don't think Scheem is used nowhere near as much as Python. So if Python could do it, then surely so can Scheem. 2020-07-02T15:25:16Z zaifir: Do what? 2020-07-02T15:25:25Z Oxyd: Break backward compatibility. 2020-07-02T15:25:29Z erkin: love too wreak havoc on the already deeply Balkanised ecosystem 2020-07-02T15:25:29Z Riastradh: invent a pointlessly incompatible new version that everyone hates 2020-07-02T15:25:47Z Riastradh: (bonus: and is slower, too) 2020-07-02T15:25:56Z zaifir: cf. Haskell, where all the sophisticated libraries break each time a new GHC version comes out. 2020-07-02T15:26:11Z gwatt: hell, just look at r5rs -> r6rs -> r7rs 2020-07-02T15:26:31Z wasamasa: backward compatibility is a lesson in humility 2020-07-02T15:26:42Z zaifir: Right, this is R6RS: lots of incompatible changes, many good, but only 8 people implement it. 2020-07-02T15:26:44Z wasamasa: sure, it looks funny that linux tacked on numbers to syscall names 2020-07-02T15:28:03Z zaifir: Oxyd: ^^ To some extent, what you're talking about already happened. 2020-07-02T15:28:49Z zaifir: Oxyd: Standard Scheme strings were immutable, for a while (and still are, in R6 Schemes). 2020-07-02T15:28:57Z Oxyd: I know. Although I think it'd make more sense to compare R7RS to R5RS. You can't run R5RS programs in R7RS – you need to at least add (import …) at the beginning. 2020-07-02T15:33:01Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:33:41Z ggole joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:34:30Z jcowan: Oxyd: As chair, I made the decision to postpone all lexical-syntax issues until close to the end, so that someone can write an R7RS-large reader all in one go. 2020-07-02T15:35:50Z jcowan: Scheme strings have never been immutable in any RnRS. *Literal* strings are immutable in the sense that "it is an error" to mutate them, but of course not all implementations enforce this. 2020-07-02T15:37:03Z jcowan: The only thing that happens is that in order to actually mutate them, you have to load the mutable string library (which should really be called the string mutation library), so it is possible in principle to do a walk through a whole program and decide whether you can safely run it with immutable strings only. The same with pairs. 2020-07-02T15:39:12Z zaifir: Huh, I thought R6RS eliminated string-set!, etc. 2020-07-02T15:39:57Z jcowan: For the record, the immutable-string ("text") SRFI recommends «xyz» as lexical syntax, which is good if you are using a keyboard driver that provides them. 2020-07-02T15:40:58Z Retropikzel quit (Quit: Vision[0.10.3]: i've been blurred!) 2020-07-02T15:44:13Z gwatt: and if you're using an implementation capable of handling that. 2020-07-02T15:46:17Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-02T15:46:19Z zig: you can run R7RS scheme programs, but one can replace the R7RS program with R5RS program with loooooots of (load "my-lib.scm") 2020-07-02T15:46:37Z zaifir: jcowan: So R6 strings were mutable? It _did_ eliminate string-set!, from what I can find. 2020-07-02T15:46:52Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-02T15:47:22Z zaifir: zig: Assuming your R7RS program doesn't use anything that isn't in R5. 2020-07-02T15:47:32Z gwatt: zaifir: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-19.html#node_idx_1280 2020-07-02T15:47:37Z jcowan: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-19.html#node_chap_18 2020-07-02T15:48:01Z zaifir: Ah, thanks. 2020-07-02T15:48:15Z jcowan: gwatt: Well, yes. 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Which means less time trying to find out what Concurrent ML is all about. 2020-07-03T07:26:37Z amirouche1 joined #scheme 2020-07-03T07:31:15Z amirouche1 is now known as amirouche 2020-07-03T08:40:50Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T08:41:31Z klovett joined #scheme 2020-07-03T08:52:44Z nikita_ is now known as nikita 2020-07-03T08:53:14Z nikita is now known as Guest25669 2020-07-03T09:09:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-03T09:14:01Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T09:36:11Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2020-07-03T09:49:22Z oxum_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-07-03T09:51:28Z Oxyd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T09:51:58Z Oxyd joined #scheme 2020-07-03T09:52:06Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T10:05:23Z TCZ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T10:05:46Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T10:25:00Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2020-07-03T10:25:42Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:25:55Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-03T10:33:01Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2020-07-03T10:33:13Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T10:33:44Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-03T10:41:54Z c7d9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T10:42:11Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2020-07-03T10:48:04Z TCZ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T10:53:05Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:00:40Z TCZ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:03:10Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:03:42Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:06:22Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:10:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:12:58Z TCZ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T11:13:25Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:14:24Z raingl joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:14:50Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:20:40Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:25:26Z TCZ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:26:31Z montxero joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:27:28Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:28:35Z montxero: Wither this syntax-violation error: definition in expression contex, where definitions are not allowed, in form (define make-empty-environment (lambda () (list))). 2020-07-03T11:30:06Z lockywolf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T11:32:40Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T11:37:39Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T11:38:28Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera) 2020-07-03T11:38:50Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-03T11:39:34Z wasamasa: did you mean: witness? 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2020-07-03T14:16:09Z mdhughes: There's nothing wrong with that, so the actual error's somewhere nearby. 2020-07-03T14:18:07Z fizzie: The error message sounds a lot like it's saying that specific (define make-empty-environment ...) is somewhere it shouldn't be. 2020-07-03T14:18:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T14:20:55Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2020-07-03T14:22:40Z fizzie: Specifically, you get that exact error from code like this: http://ix.io/2qMs 2020-07-03T14:22:56Z fizzie: (Presumably the real case is something slightly less silly.) 2020-07-03T14:24:19Z klovett_ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T14:27:26Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-03T14:27:33Z klovett quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T14:31:29Z Riastradh: zig: you should figure what CML is about anyway -- there are good ideas in it. 2020-07-03T14:38:00Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T14:39:41Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2020-07-03T14:41:13Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2020-07-03T14:50:10Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T14:50:50Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T14:52:04Z knuckles joined #scheme 2020-07-03T14:52:07Z whiteline joined #scheme 2020-07-03T14:53:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-03T14:56:43Z kopiyka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T14:57:06Z kopiyka joined #scheme 2020-07-03T14:58:02Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T15:00:18Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:02:20Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T15:08:35Z jcowan: wasamasa: Pretty sure montxero meant "whither"; it's an archaic word and the vast majority of anglophones merge "w" and "wh". 2020-07-03T15:08:43Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T15:09:26Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-03T15:09:37Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:10:24Z lockywolf_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T15:10:52Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:13:23Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:13:46Z lockywolf_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T15:13:46Z lockywolf__ quit (K-Lined) 2020-07-03T15:14:48Z drakonis joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:20:42Z zig: TIL more old english :) 2020-07-03T15:23:46Z grobe0ba_ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:24:05Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:24:30Z Riastradh: hwat are you talking about 2020-07-03T15:24:46Z jcowan quit (Disconnected by services) 2020-07-03T15:24:46Z jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 2020-07-03T15:25:03Z Riastradh: hwaet, I should say, or perhaps hwæt 2020-07-03T15:25:27Z jcowan: Or in Northeast Scots "fwat" or "fat" 2020-07-03T15:25:40Z zig: Riastradh: sure, I will propably drop the "work stealing feature" not sure yet. Thanks for the advice. I guess I can not get away without reading the book. 2020-07-03T15:25:40Z zig: Riastradh: I mean I necessarly need to understand the code to remove some of it. 2020-07-03T15:25:40Z zig: I need to be able to spawn independant event loop in different threads, my understanding is that the current implementation of guile-fibers, will spawn as requested linked event-loops, maybe it is already possible to have independant event-loop, I need to figure this. 2020-07-03T15:25:40Z grobe0ba quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T15:25:40Z _apg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T15:25:40Z nevermind quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T15:25:40Z grobe0ba_ is now known as grobe0ba 2020-07-03T15:26:40Z nevermind joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:29:01Z zig: Riastradh: guile-fibers has a "work stealing" feature where one fiber can be migrated to another POSIX thread. I do not need that. 2020-07-03T15:29:33Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T15:34:48Z zig: apparantly blazegraph can store 3TB in less than 100GB 2020-07-03T15:37:10Z kjak quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T15:38:22Z X-Scale joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:39:34Z kjak_ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:39:44Z zig: well, it is clearly not 100GB but still, apparantly they have some compression algorithm going on, that is rather good... 2020-07-03T15:40:19Z Riastradh: ...I can find a 3TB data set which compresses to 100GB too! 2020-07-03T15:41:53Z zig: the compressed text dump is 100GB, apparantly, blazegraph require 2.5 times that, that is 250GB 2020-07-03T15:41:56Z zig: given the content is mostly uris and other small strings... it is very spectacular to me. 2020-07-03T15:44:21Z knuckles quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-03T15:44:29Z zig: even with the bz2 compression algorithm, my design requires 3 times that so 250GB is still good 2020-07-03T15:44:56Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:47:32Z ahungry joined #scheme 2020-07-03T15:53:09Z jcowan: I can find a 3TB data set that compresses to 5 bytes. 2020-07-03T15:53:18Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T15:53:46Z Retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-03T15:55:19Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-03T16:02:50Z skapata joined #scheme 2020-07-03T16:02:57Z drakonis quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-03T16:04:38Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera) 2020-07-03T16:11:34Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T16:25:13Z DKordic quit (Quit: bye) 2020-07-03T16:32:37Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-03T16:32:40Z nckx is now known as ProboskissesXOXO 2020-07-03T16:38:44Z raingloom joined #scheme 2020-07-03T16:40:52Z ProboskissesXOXO is now known as nck 2020-07-03T16:40:53Z nck is now known as nckx 2020-07-03T16:58:22Z Retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T16:59:58Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:04:14Z Blukunfando quit 2020-07-03T17:05:14Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T17:06:04Z theseb joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:08:58Z jobol quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T17:12:18Z theseb left #scheme 2020-07-03T17:13:34Z terpri_ is now known as terpri 2020-07-03T17:15:30Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:18:24Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T17:19:46Z f8l joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:27:42Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T17:29:07Z f8l joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:31:02Z f8l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T17:32:19Z f8l joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:32:40Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T17:35:39Z bergsans joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:35:56Z bergsans left #scheme 2020-07-03T17:36:37Z kjak_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-03T17:36:58Z kjak joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:37:10Z shymega quit (Quit: Adiós!) 2020-07-03T17:40:21Z amirouche quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-03T17:44:34Z f8l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T17:46:07Z oldf8l joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:46:23Z zig: indeed it depends on the data, but still that is a database, it is not a cold storage. 2020-07-03T17:46:31Z oldf8l is now known as f8l 2020-07-03T17:51:37Z shymega joined #scheme 2020-07-03T17:53:10Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T18:02:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-03T18:04:38Z Blukunfando joined #scheme 2020-07-03T18:07:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:13:53Z aeth: I can create a data set of any arbitrary size that compresses down to one byte: 1 or 0. Most trivially, constantly-1 or constantly-0, but I could also encode other patterns in one byte (e.g. alternating 1 or 0) if I chose to, at the expense of losing the concise expressions of the former. 2020-07-03T18:14:41Z aeth: (Note that the "arbitrary size" would have to be part of the encoding, too. e.g it could encode all length-3TB files that only consist of 0's down to "0", but only for that exact size) 2020-07-03T18:16:58Z nilg joined #scheme 2020-07-03T18:19:51Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-03T18:24:42Z TestNasm quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-07-03T18:25:14Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T18:25:25Z Retropikzel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T18:27:58Z zig: Otherwise said, I can compress 3TB of zero or 3TB of 1. And summarize my database to a procedure (define (database) 1) 2020-07-03T18:28:13Z zig: That is another to avoid CML 2020-07-03T18:28:18Z zig: That is another way to avoid CML 2020-07-03T18:29:16Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-03T18:33:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T18:38:50Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T18:43:42Z hugh_marera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-03T18:44:06Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-03T18:46:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-03T18:47:24Z Retropikzel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T19:01:35Z leb joined #scheme 2020-07-03T19:06:20Z reffle joined #scheme 2020-07-03T19:06:20Z reffle quit (Changing host) 2020-07-03T19:06:20Z reffle joined #scheme 2020-07-03T19:07:32Z knuckles joined #scheme 2020-07-03T19:08:56Z jcowan: aeth: That's why I said 5 bytes, which makes it a run-length encoding. 2020-07-03T19:13:40Z aeth: jcowan: yes, but fortunately we know that our data is exactly 3 TB long. 2020-07-03T19:14:28Z CyDefect quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2020-07-03T19:16:47Z raingloom joined #scheme 2020-07-03T19:28:20Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T19:30:05Z aeth joined #scheme 2020-07-03T19:34:42Z iltutmus joined #scheme 2020-07-03T19:34:59Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-03T19:38:55Z leb quit 2020-07-03T19:39:06Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-03T19:39:38Z leb joined #scheme 2020-07-03T20:26:05Z bitwiz joined #scheme 2020-07-03T20:37:34Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T20:38:16Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-03T20:40:15Z seepel joined #scheme 2020-07-03T20:43:04Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-03T21:06:59Z drakonis joined #scheme 2020-07-03T21:10:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-03T21:11:58Z leb quit 2020-07-03T21:12:42Z bitwiz quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-03T21:13:25Z nilg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-03T21:19:33Z foof: mdhughes: (import (chibi regexp pcre)) 2020-07-03T21:20:59Z foof: SRFI 13[0] `string-replace` is confusingly named, since the most obvious semantics is what ecraven wants 2020-07-03T21:21:10Z foof: `string-overwrite` would have been better 2020-07-03T21:21:23Z ngz joined #scheme 2020-07-03T21:24:31Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T21:32:08Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T21:33:02Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T21:41:23Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T21:42:04Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-03T21:49:47Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T21:50:24Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T21:50:48Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2020-07-03T21:56:34Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-03T22:00:11Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-03T22:02:20Z Retropikzel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-03T22:02:49Z hugh_marera quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-03T22:27:03Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-03T22:33:58Z edgar-rft 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timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T03:24:40Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T03:34:57Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2020-07-04T03:35:54Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T03:51:36Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2020-07-04T04:00:49Z raingloom joined #scheme 2020-07-04T04:05:30Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-04T04:20:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T04:21:20Z madage joined #scheme 2020-07-04T04:22:29Z duncanm: la la la 2020-07-04T04:28:34Z seepel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T04:41:10Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T05:12:53Z edgar-rft: duncanm: nice attempt to distract from the topic 2020-07-04T05:14:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-04T05:18:54Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-04T05:27:35Z montxero quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-04T05:47:13Z TempeVolcano joined #scheme 2020-07-04T05:48:32Z TempeVolcano: Hey guys this link doesn't work, are these lectures available elsewhere? \ 2020-07-04T05:48:32Z TempeVolcano: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures%22 2020-07-04T06:01:33Z TempeVolcano: That's the link in your channel's welcome message. 2020-07-04T06:04:27Z Riastradh: TempeVolcano: remove the %22 2020-07-04T06:04:47Z Riastradh: (you copied a little too much text and got the " part of it) 2020-07-04T06:10:50Z Labu joined #scheme 2020-07-04T06:28:09Z raingloom joined #scheme 2020-07-04T06:34:45Z drakonis quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-04T06:37:48Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-04T06:42:01Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-04T07:01:10Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-04T07:04:25Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T07:07:18Z mdhughes: Delete the %22 (") off the end. 2020-07-04T07:10:25Z c7d9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-04T07:12:14Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2020-07-04T07:12:53Z raingloom joined #scheme 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I am looking to import one I wrote myself 2020-07-04T08:25:43Z montxero: Import doesn't work though 2020-07-04T08:26:15Z montxero: It gives the following error: ;;; :4465:0: warning: possibly unbound variable `import' 2020-07-04T08:26:38Z zig: how do you start the guile REPL ? 2020-07-04T08:26:58Z montxero: M-x geiser, then choose guile 2020-07-04T08:27:01Z montxero: from emacs 2020-07-04T08:27:03Z zig: hmm 2020-07-04T08:27:07Z zig: I do not use geiser. 2020-07-04T08:27:37Z zig: from the terminal, you need to do something along the lines of: guile -L /path/to/directory/containing/module/ 2020-07-04T08:27:54Z zig: then: (import (my-module)) 2020-07-04T08:30:08Z montxero: I just restarted the repl and the import seems to have worked... but I can't call the exported symbols. 2020-07-04T08:30:16Z montxero: Will try fomr the terminal now 2020-07-04T08:36:54Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-04T08:41:14Z montxero: no luck either 2020-07-04T08:58:24Z z-memory joined #scheme 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quit (Client Quit) 2020-07-05T10:12:13Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:12:32Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-05T10:13:14Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:16:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:17:17Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme 2020-07-05T10:18:18Z c7d9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T10:18:31Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2020-07-05T10:19:34Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:33:49Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2020-07-05T10:34:40Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:34:40Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-05T10:46:13Z zig: I love it when I discover a scheme library that does what I want... it goes against the idiom that you have to do everything on your own with Scheme. 2020-07-05T10:51:14Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-05T10:53:22Z Labu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T10:58:48Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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(along a tiny tutorial) 2020-07-05T13:24:25Z zig: direct link: https://github.com/arew-scheme/book/ 2020-07-05T13:25:52Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2020-07-05T13:26:25Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T13:26:33Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-05T13:30:21Z raingloom joined #scheme 2020-07-05T13:33:02Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-05T13:45:13Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-05T13:48:34Z c7d9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T13:50:45Z c7d9 joined #scheme 2020-07-05T13:51:03Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-05T14:02:28Z civodul joined #scheme 2020-07-05T14:12:59Z Retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-05T14:13:16Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-05T14:23:06Z knuckles joined #scheme 2020-07-05T14:25:45Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T14:26:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-05T14:31:12Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T14:52:13Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-05T15:00:44Z lritter joined 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quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T16:47:23Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme 2020-07-05T17:02:18Z daviid joined #scheme 2020-07-05T17:03:42Z wasamasa: github's pdf viewer is so bad 2020-07-05T17:04:56Z zig: +1 2020-07-05T17:05:31Z zig: another thing that is bad is leanpub markdown renderer, that follow line-wrapping in the pdf :'( 2020-07-05T17:05:33Z wasamasa: why can't they just let the browser display it 2020-07-05T17:06:05Z zig: because ui/ux and graphical integration :) 2020-07-05T17:06:10Z Riastradh: browser's pdf viewer is bad, why can't we just display it better 2020-07-05T17:14:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-05T17:14:27Z erkin: The org renderer is also really lacking. 2020-07-05T17:16:05Z aeth joined #scheme 2020-07-05T17:16:51Z zig: I was thinking about something while doing this work. What about a static analyzer of scheme code that can produce documentation ? 2020-07-05T17:17:46Z zig: I mean, it would extract docstrings and do some partial evaluation to try to figure which scheme objects are raised and then produce some readable text... 2020-07-05T17:18:56Z zig: or even produce some structured data, that could be used in editors. 2020-07-05T17:19:18Z zig: you will say: ideas are cheap. I got lot of those... 2020-07-05T17:22:07Z skapata joined #scheme 2020-07-05T17:51:01Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-05T17:52:07Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2020-07-05T18:01:46Z Retropikzel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T18:02:05Z Retropikzel joined #scheme 2020-07-05T18:02:54Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-05T18:04:56Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-05T18:21:45Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-05T18:23:08Z drakonis joined #scheme 2020-07-05T18:26:01Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-05T18:55:34Z wasamasa: oh, me too 2020-07-05T18:55:47Z wasamasa: docstrings are most useful when close to the code 2020-07-05T18:56:06Z wasamasa: I'd rather go through java code than javadoc 2020-07-05T19:06:02Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-05T19:08:06Z zig: javadoc :( 2020-07-05T19:08:36Z zig: the problem with javadoc, is that I do not see the point nowadays since all java IDE have good jump-to-definition support. 2020-07-05T19:09:20Z zig: I tried to go through lucene code, I did not spend as much time as with my ad-hoc code, but still it has 1 hours of painful grep. 2020-07-05T19:11:45Z rgherdt: wasamasa: scm2wiki is yours, right? It seems quite what zig is looking for 2020-07-05T19:11:53Z wasamasa: no, it's not 2020-07-05T19:11:54Z nikkal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T19:11:56Z rgherdt: but focused on markdown output 2020-07-05T19:12:07Z rgherdt: ok 2020-07-05T19:13:25Z wasamasa: if you ever find yourself confused about my stuff, here's a handy page: https://depp.brause.cc/ 2020-07-05T19:14:04Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-05T19:14:37Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-05T19:15:17Z wasamasa: the most notable things are all elisp 2020-07-05T19:15:54Z rgherdt: nice :) 2020-07-05T19:18:10Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2020-07-05T19:19:14Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-05T19:20:00Z raingloom joined #scheme 2020-07-05T19:29:16Z zig: rgherdt: tx! 2020-07-05T19:32:59Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-05T19:33:55Z whiteline joined #scheme 2020-07-05T19:34:35Z rgherdt: yw 2020-07-05T19:34:51Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-05T19:48:49Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 244 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Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T13:29:09Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2020-07-06T13:32:38Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-06T13:34:42Z jcowan: zig: great! 2020-07-06T13:48:36Z lavaflow joined #scheme 2020-07-06T13:56:21Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-06T13:57:14Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T13:58:22Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2020-07-06T13:59:34Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-06T14:00:44Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-06T14:01:11Z X-Scale` joined #scheme 2020-07-06T14:01:42Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-06T14:02:04Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-07-06T14:02:49Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera) 2020-07-06T14:03:22Z rgherdt joined #scheme 2020-07-06T14:04:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-06T14:08:31Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-06T14:09:15Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-06T14:09:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-06T14:11:07Z drakonis 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will help me :) 2020-07-07T12:29:18Z rgherdt_ is now known as rgherdt 2020-07-07T12:42:18Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T12:42:53Z klovett joined #scheme 2020-07-07T12:57:26Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T12:57:54Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-07T12:58:30Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2020-07-07T13:03:35Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2020-07-07T13:07:40Z klovett quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T13:07:59Z klovett joined #scheme 2020-07-07T13:17:33Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-07T13:20:08Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-07T13:22:00Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2020-07-07T13:24:12Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T13:24:33Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-07T13:25:49Z lockywolf_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-07-07T13:26:22Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-07T13:27:08Z lockywolf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-07T13:27:55Z lockywolf_ quit (Read 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(Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-07T14:46:39Z jcowan: Amazingsauce! 2020-07-07T14:57:02Z madage joined #scheme 2020-07-07T15:07:39Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T15:20:01Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2020-07-07T15:25:49Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T15:26:21Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T15:27:21Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T15:27:30Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T15:50:39Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T15:52:11Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T15:53:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T15:57:49Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T15:59:16Z drakonis joined #scheme 2020-07-07T16:01:46Z Tirifto joined #scheme 2020-07-07T16:02:35Z amirouche: I found a source of broken json https://bugs.chromium.org/p/oss-fuzz/issues/list?q=-status%3AWontFix%2CDuplicate%20-component%3AInfra%20json&can=1 2020-07-07T16:02:36Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/BfrU6YXc9x 2020-07-07T16:02:50Z amirouche: this is project run by... google that fuzz existing parser libraries. 2020-07-07T16:03:03Z amirouche: it does not replace a fuzzer but it might help. 2020-07-07T16:55:44Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T16:56:37Z CyDefect joined #scheme 2020-07-07T17:03:30Z CyDefect quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T17:07:53Z skapata joined #scheme 2020-07-07T17:20:45Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-07T17:30:52Z terpri__ joined #scheme 2020-07-07T17:33:52Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-07-07T17:34:44Z mr_ab quit (Changing host) 2020-07-07T17:34:44Z mr_ab joined #scheme 2020-07-07T18:12:59Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T18:18:55Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera) 2020-07-07T18:22:30Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T18:24:04Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2020-07-07T18:25:14Z drakonis quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-07T18:32:17Z terpri__ is now known as terpri 2020-07-07T18:33:42Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-07T18:37:24Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T19:06:02Z whiteline joined #scheme 2020-07-07T19:06:30Z Riastradh: duncanm: FYI, I just removed all the other vestiges of the working directory that I could find in bands. 2020-07-07T19:06:45Z duncanm: cool, thanks 2020-07-07T19:06:56Z Riastradh: Pushed it to the release-11 branch, so unless there's something horribly wrong it it, this fix should be in 11.1 (or 11.0.91), whenever that happens. 2020-07-07T19:11:10Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T19:14:51Z lavaflow joined #scheme 2020-07-07T19:16:54Z zig: I have a problem with R7RS / SRFI thing. What do you think is better, to test the SRFIs part of R7RS as SRFI libraries ? OR forget about their SRFI past and put them inside inside (scheme fu) and only test those? 2020-07-07T19:23:47Z theseb joined #scheme 2020-07-07T19:31:25Z longshi joined #scheme 2020-07-07T19:41:25Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-07T19:51:28Z jcowan: I think it doesn't make a particle of difference. 2020-07-07T20:00:28Z greyeax quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T20:03:42Z amoe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T20:05:55Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T20:06:44Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T20:08:52Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T20:09:06Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T20:28:32Z longshi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2020-07-07T20:38:51Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T20:47:07Z jobol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T21:10:10Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T21:12:14Z knuckles joined #scheme 2020-07-07T21:13:28Z lritter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T21:28:09Z ngz joined #scheme 2020-07-07T21:30:18Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T21:30:53Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T21:31:25Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-07T21:33:00Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T21:33:09Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T21:33:29Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-07T21:41:56Z zaifir: zig: (scheme foo) is just a new name for an existing library. It's not like the sample implementations get rewritten or something. 2020-07-07T21:49:57Z hugh_marera quit (Quit: hugh_marera) 2020-07-07T21:50:17Z brown121407 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T21:53:14Z alejandrozf joined #scheme 2020-07-07T22:02:09Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T22:02:31Z skapata joined #scheme 2020-07-07T22:09:40Z seepel joined #scheme 2020-07-07T22:09:55Z knuckles joined #scheme 2020-07-07T22:10:10Z alejandrozf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T22:12:47Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-07T22:13:20Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-07T22:15:26Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-07T22:16:22Z jcowan: Exactly 2020-07-07T22:18:00Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-07T22:25:21Z ngz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-07T22:35:35Z Tirifto quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-07T22:47:07Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-07T22:48:03Z samth quit (Ping 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I want to set accumalator = ()....then have an add-element function that will append values 2020-07-08T15:53:30Z theseb: (define accumulator ()) (define (add-element x) (set! accumulator (append accumulator x))) ? 2020-07-08T15:55:09Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-08T15:59:54Z bitmapper joined #scheme 2020-07-08T16:01:00Z drakonis joined #scheme 2020-07-08T16:01:43Z gwatt: That code looks fine. What's it not doing for you? 2020-07-08T16:03:04Z Oxyd: More like (define accumulator '()) (define (add-element x) (set! accumulator (append accumulator (list x)))). Need to quote the empty list, and append appends a list to a list, not an element to a list. 2020-07-08T16:11:32Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-08T16:13:02Z theseb: gwatt: https://pastebin.com/DCxQyapz <--- how make effects of additem be visible to last expression (display bag) ? 2020-07-08T16:14:37Z theseb: gwatt: i got it 2020-07-08T16:14:49Z theseb: gwatt: need to change (define bag ...) to (set! bag ...) 2020-07-08T16:14:57Z theseb: in additem 2020-07-08T16:15:23Z theseb: looks like define and set! are *not* exactly the same in behavior....how different? 2020-07-08T16:15:38Z nikkal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T16:16:19Z gwatt: define defines, set! alters. 2020-07-08T16:17:02Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-08T16:17:58Z gwatt: define introduces a new identifier in the given scope. Two identifiers may share a name, but one will shadow the other. 2020-07-08T16:18:19Z theseb: gwatt: is this correct...."define creates new variables that shadow old ones"...."set! does not create new variables that shadow" 2020-07-08T16:18:27Z theseb: you beat me to it 2020-07-08T16:18:29Z theseb: thanks ;) 2020-07-08T16:19:55Z gwatt: I would say it like this: "define creates new variables, potentially shadowing existing ones with the same name. set! does not create new variables" 2020-07-08T16:21:11Z nikkal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-07-08T16:21:26Z gwatt: (I realize that last point may not be true in the repl, but r6rs and (I think) r7rs don't allow using set! on unknown identifiers) 2020-07-08T16:24:08Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T16:27:31Z theseb: gwatt: for a long time i wondered why we need both define and set! ....now i know 2020-07-08T16:28:10Z nikkal joined #scheme 2020-07-08T16:30:36Z knuckles joined #scheme 2020-07-08T16:31:55Z amirouche: theseb: there is a SRFI about accumulators there are define with something along the lines of (define (acc) (let ((box '())) (lambda (obj) (set! box (cons obj box))))) 2020-07-08T16:32:02Z amirouche: with an if to return the content sometime 2020-07-08T16:32:24Z amirouche: in particular the lambda return another lambda (it is stateful) 2020-07-08T16:32:28Z amirouche: wrapped in a let. 2020-07-08T16:32:33Z nikkal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T16:34:23Z terpri_ joined #scheme 2020-07-08T16:37:17Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-07-08T16:44:26Z kalogik joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:04:15Z hugh_marera joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:07:54Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:08:25Z terpri__ joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:11:36Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-08T17:17:13Z theseb: amirouche, gwatt: is there any other way to modify a variable/list/something without using set! ? 2020-07-08T17:17:52Z theseb: I'm imagining having say a big list of lists....and then using some hack to append to an inner list? any chance? 2020-07-08T17:18:23Z gwatt: theseb: set! modifies the value a variable points to, and is the only standard way to do that. However, if you want to modify the structure of an object, there are specific functions to do that. 2020-07-08T17:19:21Z gwatt: Erm, set! modifies the pointer itself, not the value pointed to. 2020-07-08T17:19:45Z theseb: gwatt: can you elaborate on how one might change the innards of an object w/o set! ? 2020-07-08T17:19:59Z gwatt: set-cdr!, vector-set!, etc 2020-07-08T17:20:09Z gwatt: there are specific mutation procedures that handle that for you. 2020-07-08T17:20:28Z theseb: well those are just variants of set! ...i was looking for a more primitive hack....(I implemented my own little scheme subset) 2020-07-08T17:20:34Z theseb: maybe it isn't possible? 2020-07-08T17:21:29Z gwatt: theseb: you're asking for ways to modify the innards. What do not like about the standard way to do it? 2020-07-08T17:21:35Z DKordic joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:22:15Z theseb: gwatt: set! is great...it is just that I'm trying to implement equivalent behavior in my scheme subset without anything like it 2020-07-08T17:22:22Z theseb: gwatt: right now i just have define 2020-07-08T17:22:31Z theseb: so i'm always shadowing everything 2020-07-08T17:22:42Z gwatt: also, set-cdr! is NOT a variant of set!. If I do (define a (list 1)) (define b a) and do (set! a #f), `b' is still (list 1) 2020-07-08T17:23:03Z gwatt: However, if I do (set-car! a 2), `b' is now (list 2) 2020-07-08T17:23:24Z gwatt: theseb: I guess it depends on how you're implementing the environment lookup. 2020-07-08T17:23:44Z theseb: gwatt: i did environments like SICP says..the normal way i.e. 2020-07-08T17:25:16Z theseb: gwatt: set-car! modified a list element in your example! 2020-07-08T17:27:17Z daviid` joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:27:18Z theseb: gwatt: how would implement set-cdr! ? 2020-07-08T17:27:37Z theseb: gwatt: possible to implement set-cdr! without making it a special form? 2020-07-08T17:29:30Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-08T17:29:49Z gwatt: I don't think you can "fully" implement the accessors or mutators unless you control the representation of your data. If you're implementing a scheme on top of scheme already, you'll need to do it in terms of the accessors/mutators provided by your host scheme. 2020-07-08T17:30:46Z raingloom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-08T17:31:25Z gwatt: However, if you're implementing a scheme inside of C, you can have an struct scmpair { scmptr car; scmptr cdr; }; then defining the scheme procedures car, cdr, set-car!, and set-cdr! bang in terms of the C code becomes pretty easy 2020-07-08T17:32:19Z drakonis quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-08T17:33:31Z skapata joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:33:43Z brown121407 joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:34:16Z drakonis joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:37:54Z kalogik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-08T17:38:29Z daviid` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-07-08T17:40:39Z daviid joined #scheme 2020-07-08T17:49:34Z ArthurStrong joined #scheme 2020-07-08T18:00:20Z ArthurStrong left #scheme 2020-07-08T18:06:05Z aaaaaa joined #scheme 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joined #scheme 2020-07-08T22:19:49Z hugh_marera_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T22:21:13Z hugh_marera quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-08T22:24:48Z aaaaaa joined #scheme 2020-07-08T22:24:52Z aaaaaa: Hi all. I need a function like this: https://reference.wolfram.com/language/ref/SplitBy.html Is there a one in Scheme? 2020-07-08T22:27:07Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-08T22:30:57Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-08T22:35:49Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-07-08T22:37:06Z Labu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-08T22:44:13Z jcowan: aaaaaa: No, but it's just a few lines 2020-07-08T22:44:43Z erkin: Racket has `group-by'. 2020-07-08T22:45:52Z aaaaaa: erkin: thanks for the hint, but I don't want to shuffle input elements, like group-by does 2020-07-08T22:45:58Z erkin: Ah, I see. 2020-07-08T22:48:29Z erkin: It's single-pass and consecutive — sounds like you can write it with a fold statement. 2020-07-08T22:49:45Z jcowan: I don't think it's a fold, simply because the structure of the output doesn't match the structure of the input. 2020-07-08T22:50:17Z jcowan: yes, group-by is hash-table-based unless =? is not a hashtable predicate 2020-07-08T22:51:04Z erkin: Ah yeah, I can't think of a way to write it as a fold because of the initial condition. 2020-07-08T22:51:20Z erkin: I can't determine whether the element should be put in the accumulator without seeing the next one. 2020-07-08T22:54:00Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-08T22:55:10Z aaaaaa: I came up with this: https://pastebin.com/xD7FuwSP 2020-07-08T22:55:21Z aaaaaa: wondering, what you would do? Maybe there is a standard function I'm missing? 2020-07-08T22:56:33Z aaaaaa: one example 2020-07-08T22:56:41Z aaaaaa: have you seen fortune file in *NIX, right? 2020-07-08T22:56:46Z aaaaaa: you want to pick a random element 2020-07-08T22:57:06Z aaaaaa: first, you split this file using a predicate that is true if string=="%" 2020-07-08T22:57:18Z aaaaaa: then you just pick random element. each element = quote from the file 2020-07-08T22:57:31Z aaaaaa: isn't it nice? 2020-07-08T23:04:12Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-08T23:04:41Z erkin: Are you using Racket? 2020-07-08T23:11:49Z aaaaaa: yep 2020-07-08T23:13:47Z erkin: Then you might want to try the `for' macros, or maybe something like `rebellion's transducers. 2020-07-08T23:14:05Z aaaaaa: erkin: OK, thanks for the hints 2020-07-08T23:14:18Z erkin: My method of working through lists is the traditional way. 2020-07-08T23:14:33Z erkin: (let loop ((lst lst) (acc '())) 2020-07-08T23:14:42Z erkin: (cond ((null? lst) acc) 2020-07-08T23:14:46Z erkin: and so on. 2020-07-08T23:14:48Z aaaaaa: OK 2020-07-08T23:16:47Z erkin: In this case, I'd check if the accumulator is empty (after the null check above), if so, push the head into acc and recurse. Otherwise, do (pred? (f (caar acc)) (f (car lst))), where pred? is provided as an argument. If it holds true, push (cons (car lst) (car acc)) into the acc, then recurse. Otherwise, recurse directly on the list's tail. 2020-07-08T23:25:38Z erkin: Like this: http://pasterack.org/pastes/48219 2020-07-08T23:26:06Z erkin: It's a bit wordy but it's probably the plainest way to do it in primitive Scheme. 2020-07-08T23:28:36Z aaaaaa: erkin: thanks for your example! 2020-07-08T23:28:47Z erkin: No problem! 2020-07-08T23:32:30Z acarrico joined #scheme 2020-07-08T23:34:10Z erkin: Collapses two clauses into one to save two lines ;-P http://pasterack.org/pastes/54926 2020-07-08T23:37:17Z nikita` quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-07-08T23:39:54Z TCZ joined #scheme 2020-07-08T23:45:42Z knuckles quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T00:01:56Z terpri joined #scheme 2020-07-09T00:30:17Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T00:30:39Z terpri joined #scheme 2020-07-09T00:34:16Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-09T00:54:13Z lritter quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-09T01:04:30Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-07-09T01:11:46Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-07-09T01:14:23Z badkins joined #scheme 2020-07-09T01:19:14Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-07-09T01:19:25Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-09T01:20:14Z acarrico joined #scheme 2020-07-09T01:26:11Z Tirifto quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-07-09T01:27:28Z lockywolf joined #scheme 2020-07-09T01:33:45Z lockywolf: Friends, comments welcome: https://github.com/lockywolf/srfi-203 2020-07-09T01:38:40Z acarrico quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-09T01:53:57Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-09T01:54:41Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-07-09T01:55:16Z lockywolf_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-07-09T01:55:48Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-09T01:56:48Z lockywolf quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T02:01:53Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme 2020-07-09T02:05:02Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-07-09T02:05:26Z foof: lockywolf__: did you secure the number 203 from arthur? :) 2020-07-09T02:05:45Z lockywolf__: yes 2020-07-09T02:09:45Z edgar-rft joined #scheme 2020-07-09T02:15:41Z jcowan: To see the SRFI without downloading it, go to http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/lockywolf/srfi-203/blob/master/srfi-203.html 2020-07-09T02:26:16Z ahungry joined #scheme 2020-07-09T02:28:52Z zaifir: I'm working on a possible pre-SRFI for monoids and foldables. The idea is to provide objects that give a simple, general interface to composable objects and sequences of those objects. 2020-07-09T02:30:04Z zaifir: Traversables could also be included, although they'd need the concept of a functor, IIRC. Perhaps that would have to wait for jcowan's contexts SRFI. 2020-07-09T02:36:23Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-09T02:39:13Z lockywolf__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-07-09T02:39:25Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme 2020-07-09T02:40:46Z lockywolf__ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-07-09T02:41:19Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme 2020-07-09T02:42:01Z lockywolf_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-07-09T02:42:38Z lockywolf__ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-07-09T02:43:11Z lockywolf__ joined #scheme 2020-07-09T02:45:58Z lockywolf_ joined #scheme 2020-07-09T02:48:14Z lockywolf__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-07-09T03:04:02Z lockywolf_: zaifir, sounds high-tech as fuck 2020-07-09T03:08:17Z lockywolf_: Is there a non-inline in html? 2020-07-09T03:08:22Z lockywolf_: Or
 only?
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2020-07-09T03:28:35Z zaifir: lockywolf_: You can combine  and 
, right?
2020-07-09T03:28:45Z lockywolf_: ?
2020-07-09T03:29:00Z lockywolf_: 
 (reboot) 
? 2020-07-09T03:29:17Z zaifir checks if that works. 2020-07-09T03:31:16Z zaifir: Seems to work with Firefox. 2020-07-09T03:32:45Z lockywolf_: lement pre not allowed as child of element code in this context. 2020-07-09T03:32:57Z lavaflow: I have a simple function that I think has a name but I don't know the name: (λ (fn) (λ (x) (if (fn x) x #f))) 2020-07-09T03:33:12Z lavaflow: does anybody know what the common name for that function might be? 2020-07-09T03:33:22Z zaifir: lockywolf_: Also, not at all high-tech. You have `monoid' objects which define a unit and an associative product function, then you can use (m* obj ...) to sum all the objs with the appropriate product. 2020-07-09T03:33:58Z lockywolf_: The validator is quite sure it's not legal to next pre within code 2020-07-09T03:34:01Z zaifir: Folds follow from that directly. 2020-07-09T03:34:08Z zaifir: Eh, oh well. 2020-07-09T03:41:48Z zaifir: Most browsers seem to render
 and  in the same fonts, anyway.
2020-07-09T03:50:40Z zaifir: lavaflow: It doesn't look familiar to me.
2020-07-09T03:51:32Z zaifir: lavaflow: Sort of a filter, I suppose.
2020-07-09T03:52:15Z lavaflow: for example it could be used ((mystery-function? integer?) 5) to return 5, or if passed 'five, would return #f
2020-07-09T03:53:37Z zaifir: lavaflow: It definitely wouldn't be a __? function by Scheme conventions, since it returns x if x satisfies the predicate.
2020-07-09T03:53:57Z zaifir: (and (pred? x) x)
2020-07-09T03:54:01Z lavaflow: true
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2020-07-09T03:58:54Z zaifir: lavaflow: With SRFI 189, a nice alternative is (define (satisfies pred x) (if (pred x) (just x) (nothing)))
2020-07-09T04:01:48Z lavaflow:  ah, interesting
2020-07-09T04:01:59Z lavaflow: I've no read 189 before
2020-07-09T04:12:48Z Fare: is (nothing) yet another constant, or is it the same as #f, or (void), or some such thing?
2020-07-09T04:14:57Z Riastradh: Fare: it's a trick to confuse a cyclops
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2020-07-09T04:20:57Z lavaflow: I think (nothing? #f) would return #f
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2020-07-09T04:22:56Z lavaflow: (nothing? (truth->maybe #f)) would return #t though
2020-07-09T04:28:16Z zaifir: Nothing is disjoint from all other Scheme objects.
2020-07-09T04:29:06Z Fare: "Scheme is the Lisp that wants to be ML"
2020-07-09T04:29:15Z zaifir: lavaflow: Yes, that's correct.  truth->maybe interfaces with the usual object/#f convention.
2020-07-09T04:29:56Z lavaflow: Fare: sometimes it does feel that way
2020-07-09T04:30:18Z zaifir: Scheme is a Lisp where you can have Every Way To Do It.
2020-07-09T04:31:11Z zaifir: One thing that's been apparent in working on SRFI 189 is just how many weird protocols Lisp has for representing success and failure.
2020-07-09T04:33:20Z Riastradh: surfeit of weird protocols for failure
2020-07-09T04:37:21Z zaifir: Maybe and Either make it possible to ditch those, if one desires.
2020-07-09T04:46:57Z zaifir: It's nice to be able to write something like Haskell's unfold without the hackery of multiple #f values or something: (define (unfold* map+gen seed) (maybe-ref (map+gen seed) (lambda () '()) (lambda (elt seed*) (cons elt (unfold* map+gen seed*)))))
2020-07-09T04:52:18Z Fare: I already had three or so representations of failure, plus exceptions. That will be a fourth one.
2020-07-09T04:53:55Z zaifir: No one has to use them.
2020-07-09T04:54:18Z Fare: which?
2020-07-09T04:54:36Z zaifir: Maybe and Either.
2020-07-09T04:55:03Z Fare: no one has to use Scheme
2020-07-09T04:55:09Z Fare: or anything
2020-07-09T04:55:30Z zaifir: Either has major advantages as a failure representation, IMO, since multiple objects can be encapsulated in a Left.
2020-07-09T04:57:47Z zaifir: Fare: I say that, though, because there is sometimes a surprising amount of negative feedback in the Lisp world toward ideas that allegedly depart from various Lispy ways of doing things.
2020-07-09T04:57:55Z Fare: then there's failure as an additional continuation/function argument, failure as a user-provided default object, failure as a second return value flag...
2020-07-09T04:58:52Z Fare: Look, I already implemented my some vs failure / #f / json null (which is represented as (void) == #!void)
2020-07-09T04:59:17Z Fare: What is one more isomorphic representation?
2020-07-09T04:59:58Z Fare: At least I use the same (some foo) wrapper for my option monad and my failure monad.
2020-07-09T05:00:04Z zaifir: The nice thing in the case of Maybe is that Nothing is disjoint from every other object.
2020-07-09T05:00:13Z Fare: how is that nice?
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2020-07-09T05:00:27Z Fare: it's anti-nice in my book
2020-07-09T05:00:28Z Riastradh: universally repelling objects
2020-07-09T05:00:42Z Fare: does it repel itself?
2020-07-09T05:00:48Z zaifir: There's no way to confuse the return of an object with failure.
2020-07-09T05:00:55Z zaifir: cf. SRFI 1 find.
2020-07-09T05:01:11Z zaifir: (or some other object-used-as-failure-indicator)
2020-07-09T05:01:11Z Riastradh: How about using zero for everything like a sane designer?
2020-07-09T05:01:15Z Fare: what about returning failure as an object?
2020-07-09T05:01:21Z Riastradh: (But distinguish negative zero from positive zero, of course!)
2020-07-09T05:01:39Z zaifir: Riastradh: Very helpful :p
2020-07-09T05:02:43Z Fare: I prefer (some foo) vs #f
2020-07-09T05:03:04Z Fare: I need to unwrap the some but not the #f.
2020-07-09T05:03:17Z zaifir: If you want to return an object in the case of failure, there's maybe-ref/default.  It seems like a clear advantage to have an unambiguous failure object when you want one, though.
2020-07-09T05:03:47Z Fare: #f is unambiguous
2020-07-09T05:03:58Z zaifir: On what planet?
2020-07-09T05:04:09Z Fare: and already comes with its own operators such as or and and
2020-07-09T05:04:24Z Fare: same planet as where nothing == nothing
2020-07-09T05:04:56Z Fare: != (some nothing)
2020-07-09T05:06:44Z zaifir: Apologies.  I've been working a lot on SRFI 189 and I'm clearly letting my emotions get involved here.
2020-07-09T05:06:48Z Fare: (Just nothing) reminds me of the Dinner Game...
2020-07-09T05:07:41Z Fare: (Just Leblanc) ...
2020-07-09T05:09:03Z zaifir: Sometimes the Lisp world seems to be populated by contrarian cats.
2020-07-09T05:09:07Z zaifir: So... cats.
2020-07-09T05:09:19Z Fare: For even more type safety, every user on the planet will be assigned his own Just / Nothing type, disjoint from that of every other user. This is the way.
2020-07-09T05:10:07Z zaifir: Type theory is quite useful.  I don't see a reason for mockery.
2020-07-09T05:10:18Z Fare: Maybe every stack frame should generate its own, just to be sure.
2020-07-09T05:11:07Z zaifir: Anyway, goodnight, all.
2020-07-09T05:11:12Z Fare: nity nite
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2020-07-09T07:36:15Z disconsis: Hey people. I'm a grader for a PL course that touches (r5rs) scheme.
2020-07-09T07:36:55Z disconsis: I've written some tests for their code, and I'm trying to `load` their code into the test file and run it
2020-07-09T07:37:16Z disconsis: Scheme is complaining that the functions in their file are undefined
2020-07-09T07:37:47Z disconsis: Any clues?
2020-07-09T07:37:48Z wasamasa: if you can, try using include
2020-07-09T07:38:08Z Fare: what scheme are you using?
2020-07-09T07:38:13Z disconsis: #r5rs
2020-07-09T07:38:21Z wasamasa: what scheme implementation
2020-07-09T07:39:07Z disconsis: Is "racket" a good answer?
2020-07-09T07:39:15Z wasamasa: sure
2020-07-09T07:39:43Z disconsis: Awesome. Not too familiar with scheme itself, as you might be able to tell
2020-07-09T07:40:05Z disconsis: I'm just treating it like elis
2020-07-09T07:40:07Z disconsis: *elisp
2020-07-09T07:41:12Z disconsis: wasamasa: r5rs doesn't implement include, or any other import mechanisms afaik
2020-07-09T07:41:22Z wasamasa: no, that's up to the implementation
2020-07-09T07:42:16Z disconsis: Ah okay. This one doesn't then, unfortunately
2020-07-09T07:42:45Z wasamasa: it allows importing racket things
2020-07-09T07:43:04Z wasamasa: and racket does provide include
2020-07-09T07:43:45Z disconsis: I see. So import "include", and then use "include"?
2020-07-09T07:43:56Z disconsis: How could I go about doing that?
2020-07-09T07:44:18Z wasamasa: https://docs.racket-lang.org/r5rs/r5rs-mod.html#%28part._.Non-.R5.R.S_.Bindings_from_r5rs%29
2020-07-09T07:44:24Z wasamasa: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/require.html#%28form._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._~23~25require%29%29
2020-07-09T07:44:25Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/bMhUyYUBOQ
2020-07-09T07:44:38Z wasamasa: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/include.html?q=include#%28form._%28%28lib._racket%2Finclude..rkt%29._include%29%29
2020-07-09T07:44:39Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/QLe3dVJa96
2020-07-09T07:44:57Z wasamasa: there are many things you can say about racket, but lack of documentation isn't one of them
2020-07-09T07:48:21Z disconsis: haha thanks
2020-07-09T07:48:55Z wasamasa: so something like (#%require racket/include)
2020-07-09T07:49:36Z disconsis: Had to #%module-begin before that, but it works now
2020-07-09T07:49:37Z disconsis: Thanks!
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2020-07-09T11:38:01Z jcowan: zaifir: Fortunately a functor in the context pre-SRFI is just anything that has a *-map, as a traversable in SRFI 189 is just anything that has a *-for-each.
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2020-07-09T12:43:44Z mdhughes: I don't really see a lot of point to implementing just the SICP drawing tools, they can't run unless you have a real graphics stack, like the MIT-Scheme stack.
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2020-07-09T12:47:27Z mdhughes: That would be actively useful on all implementations. A (rogers) function to just load & draw a dead man's portrait is not really a thing I'd want to see in a library.
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2020-07-09T12:50:15Z mdhughes: Maybe the one actual flaw in MIT's, that could do with fixing, is you have to use driver-specific commands to set window frame & title. UNIX, Linux, & Mac all do 'x, so that's fine, but Windows is some other procedure nobody knows.
2020-07-09T13:07:30Z jcowan: You can do SICP graphics with TTY graphics, as a matter of fact.
2020-07-09T13:08:12Z mdhughes: Easier if you can load a jpg of the dead man.
2020-07-09T13:11:09Z jcowan: Or a graphic of him, perhaps generated by faces(1).
2020-07-09T13:14:19Z mdhughes: So should the SRFIs only assume a 1960s teletype interface forever, or at some point will the existence of graphical terminals be admitted?
2020-07-09T13:14:54Z mdhughes: As it turns out, Dr Englebart has been showing some really neat demos with a hand-held pointing device, it might catch on someday.
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2020-07-09T13:16:19Z zaifir: I'd say that portable libraries should be display-agnostic, if at all possible.
2020-07-09T13:16:52Z mdhughes: So, making an 80x24 "buffer" of ASCII chars is the limit?
2020-07-09T13:18:01Z mdhughes: Better make it 32x16 in case someone's running a CoCo.
2020-07-09T13:18:28Z zaifir: If it's possible to provide a TUI interface to something, all the better.
2020-07-09T13:19:31Z mdhughes: And the specific case of SICP is composed drawing commands, which while they *can* be drawn to an ASCII display with a huge drop in legibility, were written for and typically run on a graphics stack.
2020-07-09T13:19:56Z C-Keen: you are conflating UI with low level access to a display device and higher level drawing commands.
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2020-07-09T13:20:30Z mdhughes: Plotting data and making graphical user interfaces is the dominant way to use a computer for the last 40 years.
2020-07-09T13:20:37Z zaifir: True, that was badly phrased.
2020-07-09T13:21:10Z C-Keen: and all of these can be specified without as an api without being tied to a specific backend
2020-07-09T13:21:16Z zaifir: If it's possible to push the actually rendering to the lowest possible level, that makes sense to me for a library that's about drawing specific things.
2020-07-09T13:21:38Z C-Keen: Tk does that with widgets too
2020-07-09T13:22:50Z mdhughes: MIT-Scheme graphics doesn't solve every problem, it has no real UI/keyboard/mouse support. But at least it supports SICP's tasks, and real practical tasks.
2020-07-09T13:23:06Z mdhughes: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/stable/mit-scheme-ref/Graphics.html#Graphics
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2020-07-09T13:28:29Z zaifir: jcowan: How's that about -for-each?  I think you ended up leaving out the term "traversable" in SRFI 189.  maybe/either-sequence just handle the idea with the map and aggregator functions.
2020-07-09T13:29:17Z jcowan: You're right, I did, because if a collection is mappable it is obviously traversable.
2020-07-09T13:29:47Z jcowan: that is, if you can implement map, you can implement for-each just as well
2020-07-09T13:30:15Z zaifir: Right, of course.
2020-07-09T13:33:56Z zaifir: In Haskell, a traversable is a foldable functor t with a function traverse : Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) .  That definition is from McBride & Paterson's original "idioms" paper.
2020-07-09T13:35:31Z zaifir: I'll have to read that again.  It's a little less intuitive than "foldable" types.
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2020-07-09T13:39:27Z zaifir: But it's clear how that definition relates to, say, Maybe and Either.  If f is Maybe / Either, `traverse' is maybe- / either-sequence.
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2020-07-09T13:47:08Z zaifir: jcowan: You removed values->either from SRFI 189?
2020-07-09T13:47:20Z jcowan: Possibly by accident.
2020-07-09T13:48:28Z jcowan: Fixed and pushed.
2020-07-09T13:49:35Z zaifir: jcowan: Ah, cool.
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2020-07-09T16:04:48Z danielkoning: Good morning! I have a question about a fairly obscure R6RS syntax detail
2020-07-09T16:05:11Z danielkoning: The standard defines ““ as an option for specifying floating-point mantissa width. Does anyone have a rough idea of how widely implemented this is?
2020-07-09T16:06:52Z danielkoning: Most Schemes I've tried don't support it -- they treat the vertical bar as the start of a delimiter instead. Chez is the only one I've tried that does support it
2020-07-09T16:07:18Z Riastradh: heh
2020-07-09T16:07:30Z Riastradh: Never noticed that before.
2020-07-09T16:08:29Z Riastradh: Hardly any Scheme systems implement any floating-point other than IEEE 754 binary64.
2020-07-09T16:08:53Z danielkoning: I've never seen anyone use it, but I'm working on something that I'm hoping will adhere to the standard as pedantically as possible
2020-07-09T16:09:43Z danielkoning: I didn't think so. Does that mean (in your experience) there probably aren't too many that recognize the | syntax at the lexical level (even if it doesn't actually do anything in terms of arithmetic functionality)?
2020-07-09T16:10:35Z Riastradh: Probably not.
2020-07-09T16:11:03Z danielkoning: Thanks! I appreciate it
2020-07-09T16:12:11Z Riastradh: I can imagine it would be helpful to distinguish binary80 (`|64') from binary128 (`|112') from double-binary64 (`|106') rather than just grouping them all into `long double', but I've never actually seen anyone do that in practice.
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2020-07-09T16:55:34Z jcowan: mdhughes: My point was that a TTY-graphics implementation would a perfectly good and highly portable implementation satisfying the SRFI, not that it is otherwise desirable.
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2020-07-09T18:00:18Z aaaaaa: Hi all. how do you serialize data to file? I just want (1.2) to be stored like the "(1.2)" string. and read it back then. I saw this in some lisp/scheme textbooks, but forgot.
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2020-07-09T18:07:56Z zaifir: aaaaaa: Is `write' what you want?
2020-07-09T18:09:19Z zaifir: aaaaaa: Specifically (with-output-to-file "foo.scm" (lambda () (write '(1.2)))) will give you a file containing the text "(1.2)"
2020-07-09T18:10:49Z aaaaaa: zaifir: thanks!
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2020-07-09T19:07:20Z erkin: You know what would be nice? SICP painter on a vector display.
2020-07-09T19:08:08Z wasamasa: there is an implementation emitting SVG
2020-07-09T19:08:50Z erkin: I wonder if there's an svg2tek
2020-07-09T19:14:43Z erkin: There is not.
2020-07-09T19:15:00Z erkin: You can do tek → ps → svg instead.
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2020-07-09T19:18:20Z zaifir: erkin: What's tek?
2020-07-09T19:19:06Z gnomon: Tek is a series of novels written by William Shatner
2020-07-09T19:19:32Z erkin: zaifir: Tektronix 4400 display
2020-07-09T19:19:37Z gnomon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TekWar
2020-07-09T19:19:55Z erkin: Vector graphics — still supported by xterm in a compatibility mode.
2020-07-09T19:20:08Z erkin: You can just read a text file into stdout and it renders the graphics on your terminal.
2020-07-09T19:21:35Z erkin: If you have gnuplot, do `% xterm -t sh', then `cd /usr/share/tek2plot/' and `cat' any .tek file in there.
2020-07-09T19:22:44Z erkin: Sorry, I meant 4010.
2020-07-09T19:22:55Z mario-goulart:                                   [21:20]
2020-07-09T19:22:56Z mario-goulart:  If you have gnuplot, do `% xterm -t sh', then `cd /usr/share/tek2plot/' and `cat' any .tek
2020-07-09T19:22:56Z mario-goulart:         file in there.                                                                        [21:21]
2020-07-09T19:23:30Z erkin: It used to be the standard for high-detail CAD because raster displays had terrible resolutions at the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IztxeoHhoyM
2020-07-09T19:23:50Z mario-goulart: sorry.  stupid thinkpad mouse bug.
2020-07-09T19:23:56Z erkin: Happens :-)
2020-07-09T19:23:58Z zaifir: Ah, ty!
2020-07-09T19:24:32Z mario-goulart: This is very annoying and dangerous.  Out of the blue it starts moving and randonmly clicking everything.
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2020-07-09T19:33:09Z Ain-Al-Rami: which scheme implementation is the best to use while reading the little schemer?
2020-07-09T19:33:33Z Ain-Al-Rami: i'm quite confuse
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2020-07-09T19:36:36Z mario-goulart: Ain-Al-Rami: I think pretty much any of the most popular ones would do the trick.
2020-07-09T19:37:25Z mario-goulart: Now "the best" I wouldn't know.
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2020-07-09T19:39:11Z hugh_marera: guile (https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/)
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2020-07-09T19:44:15Z rgherdt: Ain-Al-Rami: a couple of functions used in the book are not standard scheme, but they should be trivial to implement. One example that comes to mind is 'atom?'  Chicken has it, but you can implement it in any scheme like this: (define (atom? x) (not (pair? x)))
2020-07-09T19:45:14Z Ain-Al-Rami: hugh_marera why Guile?
2020-07-09T19:45:50Z Ain-Al-Rami: thanks mario and rgherdt :)
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2020-07-09T19:55:05Z hugh_marera: Ain-Al-Rami: It is the official extension language for the GNU project. It has been used in a few real applications (including a whole distro and package manager). it is not the fastest scheme but it is fast. i am sure there are many other reasons ...
2020-07-09T19:57:30Z zaifir: Ain-Al-Rami: The Little Schemer uses a very small subset of Scheme, so any Scheme will do.
2020-07-09T19:58:03Z zaifir: Ain-Al-Rami: Whatever's easiest for you to run, basically.  The most important thing to get right is atom?, which is a non-standard procedure that TLS uses.
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2020-07-09T20:10:12Z ecraven: hugh_marera: it is actually plenty fast, especially recent versions
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2020-07-09T23:16:46Z theseb: Is this correct? it seems you can get by with always using "define" with variables and never "set!"
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2020-07-09T23:17:21Z theseb: the only thing set! seems to give you that is extra is the ability to modify variables outside functions (globals)
2020-07-09T23:17:58Z theseb: If you just use "define" you will end up shadowing lots of variables and recreating the same one in the same function perhaps....but that will STILL WORK right?
2020-07-09T23:20:25Z Riastradh: (define (make-counter c) (lambda () (let ((c0 c)) (set! c (+ c 1)) c0)))
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2020-07-09T23:24:17Z theseb: Riastradh: can you elaborate?
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2020-07-09T23:25:26Z Riastradh: theseb: How do you do that with define only?
2020-07-09T23:25:50Z theseb: Riastradh: let me run it and think for a minute...
2020-07-09T23:27:01Z theseb: Riastradh: so make-counter is a function that creates a new function...
2020-07-09T23:27:12Z theseb: the behavior of the function depends on c
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2020-07-09T23:27:21Z theseb: the new function has no args
2020-07-09T23:28:15Z theseb: so your function saves state
2020-07-09T23:28:19Z theseb: it is a counter
2020-07-09T23:28:51Z theseb: ah c is the STARTING value
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2020-07-10T01:11:40Z mdhughes: gnomon: I love Ron Goulart's books. The TekWar "collabs" still had some of his gallows humor. The show only sometimes…
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2020-07-10T01:15:23Z mdhughes: An SVG-output device for an MIT-Scheme-compatible graphics API would be 100% portable, and more useful than a terminal.
2020-07-10T01:16:05Z mdhughes: (or PNG, but rasters are a little more complex with it, since it scales the output area)
2020-07-10T01:16:34Z Riastradh: postscript or bust
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2020-07-10T16:38:49Z zig: I guess it is time for some scheme coding :)
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2020-07-12T03:32:59Z siraben: netsplit much
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2020-07-12T06:11:09Z zig: I made some benchmark with (scheme ideque) and an implementation built with finger-tree. finger-tree is always slower than the sample implementation of ideque.
2020-07-12T06:12:07Z zig: Another thing, Chez call/1cc is much faster than call/cc. Trampoline is faster than call/cc and little faster than call/1cc.
2020-07-12T06:12:59Z zig: ideque is 2 to 3 times faster than finger trees.
2020-07-12T06:13:39Z zig: (the code of the trampoline is, as usual, much less readable)
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2020-07-12T07:18:25Z siraben: zig: What would make the ideque faster than the finger tree? I'm guessing it's because the finger tree is a more generic data structure so it performs slightly worse than specialized structures.
2020-07-12T07:18:52Z siraben: At least in Haskell. For Scheme it may be different.
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2020-07-12T08:49:17Z zig: siraben: someone told me to optimize ideque with fingertrees. Tho, I do not know what the optimizations are.
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2020-07-12T09:35:46Z zig: does racket support something like docstrings?
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2020-07-12T09:42:56Z zig: I am struggling with the document process of arew, I want it to be somewhat automated and include type and error information. It seems like even racket, does not mention what error can happen when calling a procedure.
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2020-07-12T12:52:33Z mdhughes: Racket has https://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/index.html and there's an inline literate programming setup, but not any good examples or documentation of it, ironically.
2020-07-12T12:52:57Z mdhughes: There may be in some of the Racket books, I haven't read those.
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2020-07-12T13:35:28Z zig: Thanks. I looked into scribble a long time ago, I think the tooling is tip top, but the syntax is meh. There might be an equivalent of Python docstrings or similar in Racket, but could not have a look at it really.
2020-07-12T13:38:31Z zig: I also read through https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/contracts.html
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2020-07-12T13:47:49Z zig: there is a hint on how to achieve docstring with chezscheme at https://groups.google.com/g/chez-scheme/c/rWgGVh4CDgg
2020-07-12T13:51:35Z ecraven: r7rs-swank supports docstrings (also in chez)
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2020-07-12T15:07:23Z jcowan: Chibi supports Scribble too, fwiw.  I don't like the syntax much either, but there isn't any markup syntax I really like.
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2020-07-12T15:14:50Z Riastradh: literate scheme, write your scheme in tex, obviously
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2020-07-12T19:55:40Z zig: to finish the day I looked into gumbo, it seems it easier to read the HTML specification to come up with a parser. The good thing is... html5lib has tons of test cases + benchmarks :)
2020-07-12T19:56:00Z zig: https://github.com/google/gumbo-parser
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2020-07-12T23:44:07Z aaaaaa: Hi all. Maybe dumb question. How to create a list of #f elements of some specific size? In Python I can do [0]*n
2020-07-12T23:46:50Z Oxyd: (make-list n #f)
2020-07-12T23:47:21Z aaaaaa: Oxyd: oh thanks. I tried this, but somehow mistyped and failed...
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2020-07-13T04:12:17Z aaaaaa: I want to write "(foldl or #f l)", but bad syntax. Have to "(foldl (lambda (x y) (or x y)) #f l)". Why not?
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2020-07-13T04:26:11Z Riastradh: aaaaaa: `or' is not an ordinary procedure; it's a special operator with its own evaluation rules: it evalutes the operands left to right, and stops to return the first true value.
2020-07-13T04:28:38Z aaaaaa: Riastradh: OK
2020-07-13T04:29:20Z Riastradh: In particular, it _doesn't_ evaluate subsequent operands, so, e.g., (or #t (begin (display "hello") 42)) never displays anything.
2020-07-13T04:29:21Z aaaaaa: Riastradh: is there an "operator" function for "or"? Like in Python...
2020-07-13T04:30:15Z Riastradh: No standard name for it; (lambda (x y) (or x y)) is reasonable.
2020-07-13T04:30:23Z aaaaaa: Riastradh: OIC
2020-07-13T04:33:01Z aaaaaa: added a hack anyway: (define (my-bin-or x y) (or x y))
2020-07-13T04:33:08Z aaaaaa: So I can use it in foldl/foldr
2020-07-13T04:33:59Z aaaaaa: maybe there are std functions that just OR a list of bools?
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2020-07-13T08:32:59Z zig: I have big release to do at $WORK a few days after Scheme Workshop, which means I can not attend :(
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2020-07-13T12:06:29Z gwatt: aaaaaa: `exists' is the standard function: (exists (lambda (x) x) list-of-things)
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2020-07-13T13:34:41Z jcowan: aaaaaa: You can load SRFI-1 (methods for doing that depend on your Scheme) and then call (any values list) and it will do what you want.  Replace any with every if you want to AND them instead.
2020-07-13T13:35:18Z jcowan: gwatt: values is a good identity function
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2020-07-13T15:45:06Z gwatt: jcowan: thanks. I couldn't remember if r7rs specified that (values 1) was identical to 1
2020-07-13T15:45:31Z Riastradh: gwatt: always has been (except in buggy systems like old MIT Scheme)
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2020-07-13T15:54:06Z jcowan: gwatt: I believe it follows from the facts that `values` with n arguments returns n values, and that (with stated exceptions) continuations accept just one value.  This goes back to R5RS.  There may also be explicit language to this effect, but I haven't found it.
2020-07-13T15:54:45Z mdhughes: CHICKEN and Racket at least have (identity x)
2020-07-13T15:55:08Z zig: guile has it, but recommend the use of values.
2020-07-13T15:55:18Z zig: has identity procedure.
2020-07-13T15:55:25Z jcowan: True, but values is portable to all R5RS or higher Schemes.
2020-07-13T15:55:50Z bitmapper: oh hey
2020-07-13T15:56:38Z jcowan: hey oh
2020-07-13T16:00:07Z zig: 🎶 what do you gonna do when scheme will be mainstream 🎶
2020-07-13T16:00:11Z zig hides
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2020-07-13T16:19:47Z aaaaaa: gwatt: thanks
2020-07-13T16:25:46Z aaaaaa: Hi all. Why there is no 'true?' but 'false?' exists?
2020-07-13T16:26:22Z bitmapper: because
2020-07-13T16:26:27Z bitmapper: (true? #t) = #t
2020-07-13T16:26:30Z bitmapper: #t = #t
2020-07-13T16:26:48Z aaaaaa: bitmapper: and so?
2020-07-13T16:26:53Z bitmapper: they are the same thing
2020-07-13T16:26:56Z bitmapper: there's no reason to have it
2020-07-13T16:27:05Z aaaaaa: (true? #f) = #f
2020-07-13T16:27:08Z bitmapper: yep
2020-07-13T16:27:11Z bitmapper: #f = #f
2020-07-13T16:27:22Z bitmapper: so
2020-07-13T16:27:28Z bitmapper: (true? (= 1 2)) = #f
2020-07-13T16:27:31Z bitmapper: (= 1 2) = #f
2020-07-13T16:27:44Z aaaaaa: I want to count #t elemens in list. I'm doing (count true? lst). How can I get rid of "true?" here?
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2020-07-13T16:30:22Z zig: aaaaaa: are you really working with bits?
2020-07-13T16:30:28Z aaaaaa: zig: yes
2020-07-13T16:30:32Z zig: aaaaaa: what you describe is called popcount in assembly
2020-07-13T16:30:32Z aaaaaa have to
2020-07-13T16:30:42Z aaaaaa: zig: yes, but I have a list of bools
2020-07-13T16:30:49Z Riastradh: aaaaaa: Just use eqv? to compare to #t?
2020-07-13T16:31:00Z aaaaaa: Riastradh: then I would need to put lambda, etc...
2020-07-13T16:31:05Z Riastradh: yes
2020-07-13T16:31:11Z aaaaaa: this is ugly
2020-07-13T16:31:13Z Riastradh: Something wrong with lambda?
2020-07-13T16:31:17Z Riastradh: Why is it ugly?
2020-07-13T16:31:29Z aaaaaa: Riastradh: because it's too verbose than just "true?"
2020-07-13T16:31:30Z zig: aaaaaa: if you really work with bits then look into srfi-151 and the procedure call bit-count at https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-151/srfi-151.html
2020-07-13T16:31:38Z Riastradh: Note that every value other than #f qualifies as `true' as far as `if' and `cond' are concerned.
2020-07-13T16:31:58Z zig: +1 the only value that is false according to if is #f
2020-07-13T16:31:59Z Riastradh: So it's not clear that something called `true?' should behave so that (true? x) is (eqv? x #t).
2020-07-13T16:32:41Z zig: otherwise you fold with a lambda like (lambda (x) (if x 1 0))
2020-07-13T16:32:56Z zig: otherwise you fold with a lambda like (lambda (x a) (if x (+ x 1) x))
2020-07-13T16:33:05Z zig: anyway something like that
2020-07-13T16:34:16Z Riastradh: On the other hand, if you're looking to count the elements that are considered as true, i.e. the elements that are not #f, then you could just use (count values lst).
2020-07-13T16:35:26Z aaaaaa: Riastradh: oh. Why is it working? I thought 'values' is something else...
2020-07-13T16:35:57Z aaaaaa: like https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/values.html#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._values%29%29
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2020-07-13T16:36:42Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (values 123)
2020-07-13T16:36:46Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2020-07-13T16:36:46Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 123
2020-07-13T16:36:57Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (list 123 (values 456) 789)
2020-07-13T16:36:57Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: (mcons 123 (mcons 456 (mcons 789 '())))
2020-07-13T16:37:06Z Riastradh: heh
2020-07-13T16:37:12Z Riastradh: anyway
2020-07-13T16:37:34Z Riastradh: aaaaaa: Yes, `values' is usually used for multiple values, not just one, but it also works with just one.
2020-07-13T16:37:53Z aaaaaa: how come it counts #t in list?
2020-07-13T16:38:24Z Riastradh: It counts everything that's not #f.
2020-07-13T16:40:15Z bitmapper: so values with a single argument is equal to the identity function?
2020-07-13T16:41:00Z Riastradh: yes
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2020-07-14T04:57:30Z lispmacs: does anybody know where to find libraries for microscheme?
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2020-07-14T06:31:04Z wasamasa: isn't the idea that you write everything yourself, having no space for luxuries like libraries?
2020-07-14T06:32:28Z wasamasa: besides, what kind of libraries would even help you on a microcontroller without an OS :D
2020-07-14T06:33:45Z wasamasa: > Since microscheme has no garbage collector, it is important to program in a memory-conservative style. The most significant part of that process is identifying memory-thirsty constructs, and keeping them out of any loops, so they will be evaluated as few times as possible.
2020-07-14T06:34:14Z wasamasa: > It is tempting to use lambda to produce a simple function, perhaps to pass as an argument to some higher-order function. Though this is an elegant use of the functional paradigm, some heap space is required for a new 'closure' object every time the lambda is evaluated.
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2020-07-14T08:25:43Z C-Keen: wasamasa: peripheral drivers for certain chips come to midnd
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2020-07-14T08:39:32Z C-Keen: *mind
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2020-07-14T09:45:34Z siraben: wasamasa: Programming in as much of a first-order style as possible, won't that make Scheme into an imperative language?
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2020-07-14T10:38:49Z wasamasa: siraben: yup, it's pretty much something less bothersome than C at this point :D
2020-07-14T10:38:55Z wasamasa: C-Keen: ah right, hardware integration
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2020-07-14T12:06:57Z edgar-rft: microscheme - if the memory is full just buy the next microcontroller
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2020-07-14T13:21:20Z C-Keen: idk it's a nice niche, I prefer forth in that environment though
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2020-07-15T03:08:33Z lispmacs: wasamasa: in the microscheme developers literature there is evidence he wrote a dozen libries to control different kind of periphals, like motors, but I can't find them
2020-07-15T03:09:14Z lispmacs: suppose I could recreate all that, though
2020-07-15T03:10:00Z lispmacs: the only thing really concerning about microscheme though is I could find a primitive to control pulse width modulation pins, only digital pings
2020-07-15T03:10:02Z lispmacs: *pins
2020-07-15T03:10:06Z lispmacs: *couldn'
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2020-07-15T13:15:19Z lockywolf: ,seen amirouche
2020-07-15T13:15:25Z lockywolf: nope
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2020-07-15T13:20:28Z zig: lockywolf: here
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2020-07-15T13:20:58Z zig: lockywolf: it is my second account =)
2020-07-15T13:21:30Z lockywolf: zig, got the paper "finally accepted"
2020-07-15T13:21:44Z lockywolf: yours?
2020-07-15T13:22:02Z lockywolf: Scheme Workshop, I mean
2020-07-15T13:23:27Z zig: lockywolf: nope :)
2020-07-15T13:23:40Z zig: lockywolf: not good enough
2020-07-15T13:23:54Z lockywolf: hm...
2020-07-15T13:25:05Z lockywolf: well, not the last conference
2020-07-15T13:25:36Z zig: yeah
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2020-07-15T13:28:39Z lockywolf: what really surprised me is that I haven't seen much intersection between the Program Committee and the people who regularly post on the srfi mailing lists
2020-07-15T13:33:07Z zig: hehe :)
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2020-07-15T13:38:05Z lockywolf: indeed, I couldn't have formulated it better
2020-07-15T13:40:14Z zig: I think there is no room for more conferences that would be easier or at least less academical, I mean there is not enough activity in scheme world.
2020-07-15T13:48:12Z jobol: no SCHEME room at FOSDEM...
2020-07-15T13:49:51Z jcowan: Around 1990, papers on computer programming were split into "computer science" papers and "engineering" papers, and all the journals and conference moved to handle the first kind of papers.  So there is nowhere for "engineering" papers to go, with a very few exceptions that are shrinking all the time.
2020-07-15T13:57:29Z zig: they are new journals for engineering, but nobody read those? Anyway, that might explain the engineering situation...
2020-07-15T13:59:11Z lockywolf: ah, that's easy to explain... the generalised West has been outsourcing all the engineering to China and India for the past 30 years, no wonder the Western engineering culture has died
2020-07-15T14:03:02Z lockywolf: ((jpeg->painter "trollface.jpg") (list 1 1) (list 100 1) (list 100 1)
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2020-07-15T14:28:05Z lockywolf_: anyway, night everyone
2020-07-15T14:29:00Z lockywolf_: btw, ICFP is going to repeat the presentation tracks twice. For American time and for Asian time. I wonder how they are going to make it
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2020-07-15T15:13:43Z zig: we should have more of those online presentation/meetup ;)
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2020-07-15T18:48:01Z erkin: I'm writing a Scheme equivalent of 'evolution of a Haskell programmer' https://willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html
2020-07-15T18:48:57Z drakonis: nice.
2020-07-15T18:49:35Z erkin: https://gist.github.com/erkin/d47b6244099cd2c498e02bc9bfe8aaa0
2020-07-15T18:49:37Z erkin: Here's the current draft
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2020-07-15T18:50:50Z bandali: happy to see peano numerals there :-)
2020-07-15T18:51:32Z wasamasa: so far so good
2020-07-15T18:51:37Z wasamasa: waiting for the punch line
2020-07-15T18:52:24Z wasamasa: if you want ideas, racket made a language for math stuff
2020-07-15T18:52:41Z erkin: That's the punchline. ;-)
2020-07-15T18:53:06Z wasamasa: it was for some foreign math library which was otherwise unwieldy to use
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2020-07-15T18:55:37Z wasamasa: IIRC it was from benchmarksgame, but I can't find it again
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2020-07-15T18:57:09Z wasamasa: and no, the punchline in the original is a slightly shorter version of the first example
2020-07-15T18:57:52Z erkin: I know, but the shortest version is already the most conventional version in Scheme.
2020-07-15T18:57:57Z erkin: So I opted for a different approach.
2020-07-15T18:58:28Z wasamasa: well, you could tighten it up by not using lambda and using if over a two-armed cond
2020-07-15T18:58:29Z erkin: I stole that particular joke from this gist: https://gist.github.com/lwhjp/ba74b14f6a5eefa9c7fb
2020-07-15T18:58:52Z erkin: wasamasa: That's the second one.
2020-07-15T18:59:14Z wasamasa: well indeed
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2020-07-15T19:12:57Z erkin: https://github.com/racket/math/blob/master/math-lib/math/private/number-theory/factorial.rkt
2020-07-15T19:13:36Z erkin: I wonder if I should include this.
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2020-07-15T19:30:02Z duncanm: jcowan: around?
2020-07-15T19:32:06Z erkin: Impressively, the naive approach is also what scmutils uses.
2020-07-15T19:33:29Z jcowan: I'm about to go out, will back in an hour or less.
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2020-07-15T21:41:56Z erkin: feedback welcome https://erkin.party/blog/200715/evolution/
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2020-07-16T14:56:44Z oats: anybody happen to know if evaluating "()" is defined in any of the reports? I can't find it after a quick search
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2020-07-16T14:59:07Z oats: oh, never mind. found it in r7rs at the end of 4.1.3
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2020-07-17T10:49:45Z zig: hello #scheme, nearly the week-end! What are you up to?
2020-07-17T10:52:08Z wasamasa: I completed one scraping/prettifying project and will start another one soon
2020-07-17T10:52:13Z wasamasa: then maybe markov chains
2020-07-17T11:28:43Z rgherdt: a couple of things: explore chicken's bind lib further (playing around with gtk); take a look at LSP and estimate the effort of implementing a scheme lang server (and see if it's worth it)
2020-07-17T11:43:06Z zig: Yesterday, I discovered a bug in my R7RS shim on top of Chez called arew. Arew will scrape all libraries required by a program and pack everything as a single R6RS (!) program. At least, so I thought. Actually, what arew is packing is a script (REPL-like with definition and instructions interleaved), I need to rework arew packer to output a real Chez program. I discovered that bug, while trying to create an
2020-07-17T11:43:09Z zig: exectuable.
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2020-07-17T12:01:41Z wasamasa: rgherdt: ohoho, what you planning to do with gtk
2020-07-17T12:01:54Z wasamasa: rgherdt: long time ago I played with GUI libraries
2020-07-17T12:23:14Z jcowan: duncanm: ping
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2020-07-17T13:03:31Z rgherdt: wasamasa: nothing concrete for now, the idea at first is to create an app to deal with tabular data, and I want to see how difficult it would be with chicken+gtk+glade
2020-07-17T13:04:23Z rgherdt: I wrote once a gtk app during college, so it's nice to refresh my knowledge using a better language
2020-07-17T13:05:42Z rgherdt: there are libraries that are for sure easier to use, but when it comes to accessibility there are not so many choices
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2020-07-17T13:13:11Z jcowan would be surprised that C++ program is significantly faster than a Python program using GL and Imgui in the same way.
2020-07-17T13:13:33Z jcowan: I mean, glue is glue; the performance of the glue itself is usually irrelevant.
2020-07-17T13:27:45Z rgherdt: jcowan: was this meant for the discussion taking place in #chicken?
2020-07-17T13:30:57Z jcowan: woops, yes
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2020-07-17T19:30:26Z duncanm: jcowan: pong (sorry)
2020-07-17T19:30:57Z jcowan: np, what did you want to talk about?
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2020-07-17T19:58:53Z duncanm: jcowan: the POSIX SRFI stuff
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2020-07-17T19:59:14Z duncanm: jcowan: i was wondering how to only implement a subset of the exported interface
2020-07-17T19:59:43Z duncanm: jcowan: back when I used s48/scsh, there's DEFINE-STRUCTURE (looks like DEFINE-LIBRARY in R7RS) and DEFINE-INTERFACE
2020-07-17T20:00:14Z jcowan: We may have interfaces some day, but not yet.
2020-07-17T20:00:17Z duncanm: i just see the (export ...)  part in R7RS, so i dunno if there's a way to write down a sub interface
2020-07-17T20:00:31Z duncanm: I've started working on supporting the those APIs in Kawa
2020-07-17T20:00:39Z duncanm: i wrote a thing to the mailing list
2020-07-17T20:01:20Z duncanm: there's prolly a way to support the full interface, but that'll require bringing an extra library, and then it won't work on Windows, or maybe it would, etc
2020-07-17T20:01:53Z duncanm: but for a subset of the API, you could do it using just the APIs that come out of the box with Java, and so that's much easier, and guaranteed to be cross-platform, to some extent, etc etc,
2020-07-17T20:02:15Z duncanm: I'm referring to the java.io and java.nio APIs
2020-07-17T20:02:45Z jcowan: The simplest thing is probably to implement all the unimplementable things to call `error`.  That's what (chicken posix) does on Windows.
2020-07-17T20:03:46Z jcowan: See the first paragraph of the Specification section:
2020-07-17T20:03:50Z jcowan: "Implementations of this SRFI on non-POSIX systems, especially Windows, must provide all the procedure names and syntax keywords. However, if the specified action is not possible, the procedure should either take no action and return some reasonable default value, or raise an exception."
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2020-07-17T20:05:32Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-07-17T20:15:54Z zig: first time I understand something about chez while reading the code...
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2020-07-17T20:16:06Z zig: ... I do not remember what it is, tho...
2020-07-17T20:16:55Z zig: Ah yes, I remember (module (foo bar) ...) will export foo and bar in the enclosing lexical scope
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2020-07-18T05:40:02Z Retropikzel: Anyone know how I can make mit-scheme exit on error? Now the repl stays on
2020-07-18T05:42:01Z Riastradh: (bind-condition-handler (list condition-type:error) (lambda (condition) (exit 1)) (lambda () ...))   (maybe also want to use write-condition-report to show the error)
2020-07-18T05:42:30Z Riastradh: ...actually, --batch-mode might just dtrt, I forget.
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2020-07-18T07:16:45Z mdhughes: I'm not sure if it has an equivalent to current-exception-handler property, I usually override that and do some shutdown code then (exit 1).
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2020-07-18T07:40:56Z Retropikzel: Got it working, thank you very much :)
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2020-07-18T09:35:40Z lockywolf: https://icfp20.sigplan.org/home/scheme-2020#event-overview
2020-07-18T09:36:20Z lockywolf: My perfectionist eye is wet with blood
2020-07-18T09:37:09Z lockywolf: Apparently, one person prefers having a period at the end of the title. And one person prefers lowercase words in the title.
2020-07-18T09:37:18Z wasamasa: have you handed in a paper?
2020-07-18T09:37:31Z wasamasa: yes you did :D
2020-07-18T09:38:04Z lockywolf: At least two people think that "on" should be capitalised in the title, and at least two disagree.
2020-07-18T09:38:44Z lockywolf: At least on person thinks that names should not be capitalised.
2020-07-18T09:39:01Z lockywolf: (facepalm)
2020-07-18T09:39:30Z lockywolf: wasamasa, yeah, what about you?
2020-07-18T09:40:08Z wasamasa: I haven't done anything academic beyond school/uni assignments and my bsc thesis
2020-07-18T09:41:09Z lockywolf: 3 rackets, 1 guile, 1 gambit, 1 r7rs, 1 multi-platform
2020-07-18T09:41:45Z lockywolf: wasamasa, you could be writing a report every time you write a program ;)
2020-07-18T09:41:51Z wasamasa: lol
2020-07-18T09:41:59Z lockywolf: it's not illegal
2020-07-18T09:42:00Z wasamasa: I keep notes and occasionally make a blog post
2020-07-18T09:43:20Z erkin: I envy people who have the motivation to write a lot of stuff.
2020-07-18T09:43:41Z wasamasa: on someone's suggestion I've started putting the notes on gopher
2020-07-18T09:43:48Z wasamasa: which is semi-public
2020-07-18T09:44:03Z erkin: I can barely muster the motivation to write code, let alone write a blog/phlog post or even a report/paper.
2020-07-18T09:44:20Z wasamasa: I don't have the motivation to sharpen up my writing skill
2020-07-18T09:44:24Z erkin: I could only write my bachelor's thesis with the help of a bottle of methylphenidate.
2020-07-18T09:45:01Z wasamasa: RIP
2020-07-18T09:46:02Z wasamasa: if it was like a job, sure, I'd feel the same
2020-07-18T09:46:08Z wasamasa: careful what job you wish for
2020-07-18T09:46:22Z erkin: At this point, I'm convinced it's something pathological.
2020-07-18T09:47:32Z erkin: I keep article and project ideas in a file (~/tmp/other/scratchpad/ideas.org) so that once I finally obtain a magical source of motivation (a tuit that is round enough for my needs, or maybe just a lifetime's supply of Adderall) I can pen the articles I always wanted to and hack away at libraries and programs I want to make.
2020-07-18T09:48:26Z erkin: oh wait, that file's out of date, I just send the ideas to myself as messages over Signal or WhatsApp
2020-07-18T09:48:34Z lockywolf: Hm... my TODO.org has 1056 todos
2020-07-18T09:49:02Z erkin: I have several TODOs because it becomes too intimidating to read one once it grows too much, so I just start a new one and don't read the previous one.
2020-07-18T09:49:23Z wasamasa: I used to have a file where to store all the interesting ideas for topics I might want to look into
2020-07-18T09:49:29Z lockywolf: for me the motivation is simple. whenever I do something and don't write a report about it, I just feel that my life is leaking away
2020-07-18T09:49:40Z wasamasa: the idea is to store them away so that they stop lingering on your mind
2020-07-18T09:49:43Z erkin: lockywolf: Oh I feel the same way too. I just don't act on it.
2020-07-18T09:49:44Z lockywolf: http://lockywolf.wordpress.com
2020-07-18T09:49:46Z wasamasa: it works shockingly well
2020-07-18T09:49:54Z lockywolf: it does
2020-07-18T09:50:04Z lockywolf: so I decided to make simple things first
2020-07-18T09:50:08Z erkin: Washing my hands off the duty relieves me from ever thinking about it again.
2020-07-18T09:50:14Z erkin: And I never go back to look at the ideas.
2020-07-18T09:50:16Z lockywolf: just write a few lines about a book I have read
2020-07-18T09:50:48Z wasamasa: putting my mind to one project fully and writing about it is far more enjoying than splitting up my attention across many projects yelling for it
2020-07-18T09:50:51Z lockywolf: Solving sicp took such a long time, that I thought that just a blog post wouldn't be enough
2020-07-18T09:50:58Z erkin: Let me take a look at my Signal notes actually...
2020-07-18T09:51:04Z wasamasa: ideally projects that can be finished in a few weeks most
2020-07-18T09:51:14Z lockywolf: so I wanted to write something more impressive
2020-07-18T09:52:11Z erkin: Link to a comp.lang.scheme post, a paper by Andy Keep, a subsection of R6RS, the term `syntax-id-rules', "Guile & Kafka???", "expansion passing style?", make-up shopping list, "LAML & X-expressions?"
2020-07-18T09:55:38Z wasamasa: one of these things is not like the others
2020-07-18T09:55:43Z erkin: WhatsApp notes: A vegan burger recipe, (set-mark-command-repeat-pop t), link to a knitting pattern, short story ideas, some idea about representing a spherical world with square tiles, "prepend `exec sl' to someone's /etc/profile", mythology ideas for D&D campaign
2020-07-18T09:56:11Z erkin: Damn, I don't remember 80% of these. I really need to get better at organising my thoughts. :-(
2020-07-18T09:56:54Z erkin: Although I gotta try that `sl' prank.
2020-07-18T09:57:17Z lockywolf: erkin, memex
2020-07-18T09:57:33Z erkin: hahah
2020-07-18T09:58:17Z lockywolf: or, rather Memacs
2020-07-18T09:58:27Z erkin: Maybe I should try this famous Zettelkasten thing.
2020-07-18T09:58:37Z lockywolf: it lets you forget things with a much greater throughput
2020-07-18T09:58:43Z wasamasa: lol
2020-07-18T09:59:10Z erkin: That's how I want to live my life. Screw up *efficiently*. Get nowhere *quickly*. B-)
2020-07-18T10:00:34Z wasamasa: there is a difference between productivity (doing one thing properly) and making all your ideas come true (which requires great juggling skill)
2020-07-18T10:01:13Z erkin: Screw it, I'm going to start doing this Zettelkasten thing.
2020-07-18T10:01:22Z wasamasa: that's the spirit
2020-07-18T10:02:55Z lockywolf: I have a call to a shell script that greps the TODO list for the number of todo items and displays it at a conky widget at my desktop
2020-07-18T10:03:05Z wasamasa: rudybot: without putting much thought to it, I broke my previous record and made 8 and a half tiny pancakes
2020-07-18T10:03:19Z erkin: lockywolf: That sounds extremely demotivating.
2020-07-18T10:03:29Z rudybot: wasamasa: pancakes
2020-07-18T10:03:31Z erkin: How are you not crumbling under the pressure of piling up tasks?
2020-07-18T10:03:44Z lockywolf: em...
2020-07-18T10:03:57Z lockywolf: I have no life
2020-07-18T10:04:05Z lockywolf:  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-07-18T10:04:08Z zig: I started doing zettelkasten but then gave up
2020-07-18T10:04:54Z erkin: Physical or digital?
2020-07-18T10:05:04Z zig: digital
2020-07-18T10:05:40Z zig: I also have paper notes, but I mostly use it as a short term memory
2020-07-18T10:05:49Z zig: and they are not organized.
2020-07-18T10:06:22Z erkin: Don't worry, my digital notes aren't organised either.
2020-07-18T10:07:18Z lockywolf: it's hard to organize digital notes
2020-07-18T10:07:26Z lockywolf: a computer is like a brain
2020-07-18T10:07:31Z lockywolf: (full with junk)
2020-07-18T10:07:45Z erkin: Oh wow, I forgot I made this: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZpa6NkZQRI9MekYmDBTw6Vxpwg75ztos047
2020-07-18T10:08:05Z erkin: I attempted to make a family tree of operating systems, then gave up before I got to Unix.
2020-07-18T10:08:58Z zig: I see genera on the right
2020-07-18T10:09:29Z erkin: Yeah, I never got to mapping out Lisp OSes either.
2020-07-18T10:10:29Z lockywolf: the link doesn't seem to work for me
2020-07-18T10:10:56Z zig: adblocker maybe?
2020-07-18T10:11:26Z lockywolf: the adblocker seems calm
2020-07-18T10:12:04Z zig: on my side umatrix was blocking some third party js
2020-07-18T10:12:06Z wasamasa: rudybot: and just like that, eight and a half pancakes are gone
2020-07-18T10:12:13Z rudybot: wasamasa: pancakes
2020-07-18T10:12:28Z wasamasa: did someone lobotomize the bot?
2020-07-18T10:12:40Z erkin: wasamasa: Does this work? https://api.pcloud.com/getpubthumb?code=XZpa6NkZQRI9MekYmDBTw6Vxpwg75ztos047&linkpassword=undefined&size=1920x828&crop=0&type=auto
2020-07-18T10:12:40Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/HVHs87yLKc
2020-07-18T10:12:43Z zig: wasamasa: what about the rain during day light?
2020-07-18T10:12:47Z zig: oops
2020-07-18T10:12:50Z zig: rudybot: : what about the rain during day light?
2020-07-18T10:12:53Z lockywolf: erkin, I think it's just too huge
2020-07-18T10:12:59Z rudybot: zig: what about the rain during day light?
2020-07-18T10:13:02Z wasamasa: erkin: yes, I can access it
2020-07-18T10:13:12Z wasamasa: rudybot: tell me everything you know about emacs
2020-07-18T10:13:13Z rudybot: wasamasa: I know about `exec-path-from-shell-copy-env` and it's great for grabbing a single new var, but it'd be nice to grab everything from the subshell it spawns instead (feel free to tell me I'm doing it wrong too!)
2020-07-18T10:13:17Z wasamasa: ok, weird
2020-07-18T10:13:17Z lockywolf: nah, it got loaded eventually
2020-07-18T10:13:27Z wasamasa: maybe it doesn't know anything about pancakes
2020-07-18T10:13:28Z lockywolf: it's just the website is bloated
2020-07-18T10:13:56Z wasamasa: I have a more achievable task of that kind, extending the emacs timeline by jwz
2020-07-18T10:14:02Z wasamasa: https://emacs.brause.cc/timeline.html
2020-07-18T10:14:24Z lockywolf: emacs is dead ...
2020-07-18T10:14:29Z erkin: You can include modern GNU Emacs distros.
2020-07-18T10:14:37Z wasamasa: these aren't distros
2020-07-18T10:14:38Z erkin: Like Spacemacs and Doom Emacs.
2020-07-18T10:14:45Z erkin: I know
2020-07-18T10:15:14Z erkin: Although I guess since distros don't deviate from upstream, they kinda don't have distinct versions?
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2020-07-18T10:23:54Z lockywolf: emacs has "neuron-mode"
2020-07-18T10:24:02Z lockywolf: Major mode for editing zettelkasten notes using neuron
2020-07-18T10:24:23Z lockywolf: and something called   zetteldeft
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2020-07-18T15:50:28Z zig: emacs indentation is wacky with my docstring, see http://dpaste.com/1ZVZQ8V
2020-07-18T15:50:40Z zig: copy paste that and try to add a procedure below the first..
2020-07-18T15:50:45Z zig: wasamasa: any idea what happens?
2020-07-18T15:52:19Z wasamasa: I don't see what you mean
2020-07-18T15:52:24Z wasamasa: docstring is treated the same as code
2020-07-18T15:53:12Z zig: I need to indent manually.
2020-07-18T15:53:24Z zig: after the first procedure, the indentation does not work
2020-07-18T15:54:05Z wasamasa: if I reindent your code, all that changes is the case-lambda indentation
2020-07-18T15:54:55Z zig: try to add a defintion after cons
2020-07-18T15:55:45Z wasamasa: that doesn't change anything :D
2020-07-18T15:55:58Z zig: what version of emacs you have?
2020-07-18T15:56:06Z wasamasa: it would be more helpful if you pasted an example of indentation going bad, not how you fixed it
2020-07-18T15:56:09Z wasamasa: 26.3
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2020-07-18T15:56:22Z wasamasa: naturally I have some scheme customization, too
2020-07-18T15:56:37Z zig: what scheme mode do you use?
2020-07-18T15:56:45Z wasamasa: the built-in one
2020-07-18T15:56:56Z wasamasa: as if there's something else than that
2020-07-18T15:57:00Z zig: when I try to re-indent everything, it does nothing on my side
2020-07-18T15:57:19Z wasamasa: reindentation meaning, going to every line and hitting the tab key
2020-07-18T15:58:02Z zig: wasamasa: try that file http://dpaste.com/2DDR33A
2020-07-18T15:58:13Z zig: please :)
2020-07-18T15:58:22Z wasamasa: same with emacs -Q
2020-07-18T15:59:02Z zig: it works? it indents everything?
2020-07-18T15:59:36Z wasamasa: yes, if I do the same thing there, I can reindent the file
2020-07-18T16:00:05Z wasamasa: you didn't close the first paren, so there's no corresponding closing paren in column 0
2020-07-18T16:00:36Z wasamasa: try emacs -Q
2020-07-18T16:00:57Z wasamasa: you'll need to enable scheme-mode manually
2020-07-18T16:01:17Z wasamasa: the quicker version is to select all and hit tab, that's almost always the same as indenting each line individually
2020-07-18T16:02:40Z zig: That is what I do C-x h then TAB
2020-07-18T16:02:58Z zig: indeed it works, but there is problem with the docstring being wrapped at column 0
2020-07-18T16:03:22Z zig: the following expr, stays start at column 0 unless I indent the previous strings
2020-07-18T16:05:00Z wasamasa: docstrings are fair game
2020-07-18T16:05:17Z wasamasa: s-expressions however are indented correctly
2020-07-18T16:05:33Z wasamasa: the text wrapping is the only difference I see between both of your snippets after reindenting
2020-07-18T16:05:41Z wasamasa: if you want that to be different, write some elisp
2020-07-18T16:06:04Z wasamasa: or better, write a filling function
2020-07-18T16:06:18Z zig: or write an editor =)
2020-07-18T16:06:27Z wasamasa: no need to throw everything away
2020-07-18T16:06:43Z wasamasa: IIRC clojure-mode did something like this before
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2020-07-18T16:08:33Z zig: thank you wasamasa, I will think about the it. Anyway, I still have in my todo to write an editor because emacs is too slow and I do not know elisp
2020-07-18T16:08:47Z zig: fwiw
2020-07-18T16:09:09Z wasamasa: sure, just rewrite everything and expect everything about it to be better than emacs
2020-07-18T16:09:56Z wasamasa: it's an educational project, but let's be honest, whatever you can do yourself will more likely resemble a microemacsen than the real thing
2020-07-18T16:10:21Z wasamasa: if you love minimalism so much you can do without some particular feature, that's fine
2020-07-18T16:10:32Z wasamasa: if the absence of that feature makes you ponder doing this project, well...
2020-07-18T16:11:10Z wasamasa: as for not knowing elisp, lol, you know scheme, learning another lisp is far easier for you than for people who don't know any lisp
2020-07-18T16:15:34Z wasamasa: anyway, I've checked and clojure-mode does indeed do this
2020-07-18T16:15:52Z wasamasa: it's less than ten lines of code
2020-07-18T16:16:03Z wasamasa: granted, they're cheating a bit to detect docstrings, but still
2020-07-18T16:22:18Z wasamasa: filling is more complicated, but can still be borrowed from there
2020-07-18T16:26:00Z zig: my goal is to have a comprehensive toolbox using scheme, that necessarly include the editor. Changing of programming language is a culprit while coding e.g. frontend (javascript) vs. backend (python, ruby, whatever...)
2020-07-18T16:26:52Z zig: It might sound like a script-kid dream... one language to rule them all. But I have experience changing programming language while changing subject, and really if I can avoid it, I will.
2020-07-18T16:28:21Z zig: That is the same reason I was trying to avoid SQL, and end up writing SRFI-167 and SRFI-168 and eventually using FoundationDB that promote users to write code in their "native" programming language
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2020-07-18T16:38:21Z wasamasa: well, thanks, that explains your database writings
2020-07-18T16:41:35Z wasamasa: and yes, it does sound childish to me, rewriting everything is a game you cannot win unless you have a big ecosystem behind you
2020-07-18T16:48:07Z zig: I rewrite for my own profit, the editor is the software I use the most, I do not master that, what about the rest?
2020-07-18T16:52:17Z wasamasa: I don't really understand that sentence
2020-07-18T16:53:22Z zig: If I do not master my editor, what can I master?
2020-07-18T16:53:39Z wasamasa: scheme apparently :P
2020-07-18T16:53:39Z zig: I mean if I can
2020-07-18T16:53:52Z zig: :)
2020-07-18T16:53:53Z zaifir: It's pretty easy to write a text editor in Scheme.
2020-07-18T16:54:19Z zaifir: It's not easy to rewrite Emacs in anything.
2020-07-18T16:54:51Z wasamasa: I'm curious whether there's anyone at all customizing edwin nearly as much as emacs
2020-07-18T16:58:21Z Riastradh: % wc -l .edwin 561 .edwin
2020-07-18T16:58:31Z Riastradh: bah
2020-07-18T16:58:35Z Riastradh: % wc -l .edwin
2020-07-18T16:58:37Z Riastradh:      561 .edwin
2020-07-18T16:59:02Z Riastradh: (but I haven't touched it in a while and a good deal of it is irrelevant now)
2020-07-18T17:01:11Z wasamasa: wait, why I'm able to scroll past the end of a buffer
2020-07-18T17:01:58Z Riastradh: next-line-add-newlines
2020-07-18T17:02:10Z wasamasa: oh, so it's intentional, interesting
2020-07-18T17:02:17Z Riastradh: used to be default in GNU Emacs too
2020-07-18T17:02:27Z wasamasa: it feels like a time travel machine :D
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2020-07-18T17:23:41Z zig: zaifir: did you read about xi-editor, the maintainer more or less gave up
2020-07-18T17:26:20Z zig: it is yet-another good case for microservices. It was supposed to be a great editor with multiple process, and CRDT.
2020-07-18T17:32:16Z zaifir: zig: That's unfortunate.
2020-07-18T17:32:33Z zaifir: Not sure what "microservices" are.  Would ed count? :)
2020-07-18T17:36:12Z zig: microservice means multiple POSIX process communicating with Remote-Procedure-Call (RPC) possibly over the network, in the case of xi-editor it all happens in a single box tho
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2020-07-18T17:37:15Z zig: ed is not a microservice :)
2020-07-18T17:38:17Z zig: in a microservice architecture, they draw the line "somewhere" to split an application into multiple code base. They say, it is more manageable.
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2020-07-18T17:40:48Z zig: I am not sure whether monolith is better than microservice because I mostly work with microservice, but clearly microservices is a pain.
2020-07-18T17:42:11Z zaifir: Sounds unlikely to make anything simpler.
2020-07-18T17:42:36Z zaifir: sam might be a good example.
2020-07-18T17:42:52Z zaifir: Text-based editor and standalone terminal UI.
2020-07-18T17:43:04Z zig: They say it makes management simpler from a social point of view, because there is a "clear contract" between each service and you can not be sloppy..
2020-07-18T17:43:54Z zaifir: Hmm.
2020-07-18T17:45:28Z zig: based on wikipedia description of sam, it seems to be case of service approach
2020-07-18T17:45:30Z zaifir: I wonder how that model can work with a programmable text editor.  It seems difficult to expose multiple process components to the user.
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2020-07-18T17:46:25Z zig: xi-editor works like emacs daemon mode. One of the reason, is to be able to create multiple frontends gui
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2020-07-18T17:47:14Z zig: but unlike emacs, afaiu, each plugin has its own process
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2020-07-18T17:53:14Z zaifir: That's interesting.
2020-07-18T17:57:44Z zaifir: Then again, we're still waiting for the Microkernel Revolution...
2020-07-18T17:59:27Z wasamasa: I only see sense in microservices when doing development across a large team working 40h a week
2020-07-18T17:59:53Z wasamasa: and even then it makes more sense to invest in tools than debugging across service boundaries
2020-07-18T18:02:58Z groovy: can someone explain to me why the (iter 1 1) is there  https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qtwhbnbZ/code%20snip
2020-07-18T18:03:18Z groovy: it's there to initialize the iter function defined in factorial ?
2020-07-18T18:03:57Z zaifir: groovy: iter does the actual computation.  How does it work?
2020-07-18T18:04:23Z groovy: it multiplies the counter and product then iterates until it gets to the desired product
2020-07-18T18:04:46Z groovy: i just don't get why it's in the main body of the define
2020-07-18T18:04:54Z zaifir: groovy: How else would you run it?
2020-07-18T18:05:36Z groovy: uh
2020-07-18T18:06:02Z groovy: i guess I would've thought that it would've happened inside the definition of iter itself
2020-07-18T18:07:01Z groovy: like for smth more simple there's (define (square x) (* x x)) which i get you've got a procedure that takes an argument and x*x is what it does
2020-07-18T18:07:06Z zaifir: groovy: Try extracting the iter function as a separate procedure.
2020-07-18T18:08:16Z groovy: zaifir: i'm copying this out of sicp so i've already seen the iter outside of the factorial and the procedure for (factorial n) was (iter 1 1 n)
2020-07-18T18:08:27Z zaifir: groovy: Right.
2020-07-18T18:08:36Z groovy: but in the footnotes they show it in block structure
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2020-07-18T18:09:03Z zaifir: groovy: So the only difference here is that the iter definition is internal, which saves having to pass the n.
2020-07-18T18:09:17Z groovy: and i guess i'm confused bc i thought the syntax for defining procedures was (define (procedure args) (procedure body))
2020-07-18T18:09:39Z zaifir: s/(procedure body)//, yes.
2020-07-18T18:10:34Z zaifir: groovy: If you ignore the internal definition, all (factorial n) does is call (iter 1 1).
2020-07-18T18:11:59Z zaifir: groovy: But evaluating a definition doesn't do anything, and a procedure containing only an internal definition as its body is invalid. (There's got to be at least one expression.)
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2020-07-18T18:13:46Z groovy: ok i guess i'm just dumb/overthinking this
2020-07-18T18:14:51Z zaifir: groovy: It's a bit easier to understand the two-procedure version.
2020-07-18T18:15:26Z groovy: yeah
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2020-07-18T18:16:25Z zaifir: (SICP is a little infatuated with internal defines.)
2020-07-18T18:17:10Z wasamasa: they're fun
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2020-07-18T20:54:11Z Riastradh: Random PSA: You should get a U2F (a.k.a. FIDO/webauthn) security key device and use it.  Just adds a button push to any login; completely thwarts phishing; same device works for many accounts so you only need one device (plus a backup), not one per account; major browsers, platforms, and services support U2F these days.
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2020-07-18T22:17:33Z jcowan: erkin: I would *never* have guessed that there was any connection between TSS/360 and TSS/8, other than being, like, Time Sharing Systems.
2020-07-18T22:17:55Z jcowan: Not that I ever used either of them, but I studied TSS/8 to find out how it worked
2020-07-18T22:19:14Z bitmapper: someone at the LCM got TSS/8 running again
2020-07-18T22:23:41Z jcowan: That was probably straightforward, since we have good PDP-8 emulators.  If you are interested in PDP-8-style architectures, you might want to look at github.com/johnwcowan/pdp8x, which is a design for a 32-bit PDP-8.
2020-07-18T22:24:05Z Riastradh: oughta do a 72-bit PDP-11
2020-07-18T22:24:07Z Riastradh: er
2020-07-18T22:24:08Z Riastradh: PDP-10
2020-07-18T22:25:08Z jcowan: I did get a suggestion to do a 24-bit PDP-8, which is interesting in that it is 4 sesquinibbles and 3 bytes at the same time.
2020-07-18T22:38:23Z groovy: Riastradh: what do you recommend wrt u2f like a yubikey
2020-07-18T22:38:26Z groovy: ?
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2020-07-18T22:50:40Z Riastradh: groovy: Yubikeys are a reasonable choice -- the $20 Yubico Security Key does U2F over USB-A (costs a bit more for NFC, USB-C, or Lightning).  I'd like it better if the hardware design and the firmware source code were published -- Nitrokey publishes the firmware source code, at least.  I don't have strong feelings about the choice of vendor but a lot of people around me seem to like Yubikeys.
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2020-07-18T23:15:24Z autumn[m]: ... is there any vendors for the $20 version that ISN'T 'just look on amazon'? :-P
2020-07-18T23:32:45Z Riastradh: autumn[m]: https://www.yubico.com/?
2020-07-18T23:32:54Z Riastradh: https://www.yubico.com/product/security-key-by-yubico
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2020-07-18T23:59:29Z autumn[m]: oh thanks!
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2020-07-19T04:19:58Z YesForGodSake: hey
2020-07-19T04:20:33Z YesForGodSake: for you schemers, scheme is functional or not?
2020-07-19T04:24:45Z drakonis: if you desire so?
2020-07-19T04:24:53Z drakonis: it is very functional though
2020-07-19T04:25:09Z drakonis: scheme is anything you want it to be, provided you put the effort to do it
2020-07-19T04:26:21Z aeth: YesForGodSake: Lisps are multiparadigm languages rather than dogmatic languages. Scheme is more functional than most, though, because it guarantees that tail recursion is optimized, allowing quite a few things to be written functionally.
2020-07-19T04:27:44Z aeth: YesForGodSake: But what's usually idiomatic around FP is a "mostly functional" style of having mutable data structures, but having pure functions feed the mutable data structures. In some other language that would be something like "x.y = z + w" where + is the pure function and x.y is a record/struct/whatever.
2020-07-19T04:27:52Z erkin: Scheme was intended to be functional, in that it was modelled after simply typed lambda calculus, but there's nothing stopping you from using it imperatively.
2020-07-19T04:28:28Z erkin: Just like most other Lisps, it's highly flexible and doesn't get in your way in terms of expressivity.
2020-07-19T04:28:32Z aeth: (The distinction here is that my examples are usually arithmetic examples in other languages because not everything is an expression there and you often need intermediate variables, e.g. compare Lisp's cond expression to if/then/else statements)
2020-07-19T04:29:54Z aeth: (In most languages you'd either have to set an intermediate variable or directly return, but in Lisps you can just use the implicit return value of the cond)
2020-07-19T04:31:49Z YesForGodSake: thanks!
2020-07-19T04:32:06Z YesForGodSake: which book do u recommend to learn functional programming with Scheme?
2020-07-19T04:32:12Z YesForGodSake: it looks so elegant xD
2020-07-19T04:33:04Z erkin: SICP :-)
2020-07-19T04:33:37Z erkin: For all other books https://erkin.party/scheme/bibliography/
2020-07-19T04:34:52Z erkin: The Little Schemer is an excellent start that teaches functional programming, list manipulation, working with lambdas and expression oriented programming in simple terms.
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2020-07-19T04:38:49Z YesForGodSake: thanks!
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2020-07-19T04:39:48Z aeth: I can second The Little Schemer.
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2020-07-19T04:40:03Z aeth: There's a prettified SICP here: https://sarabander.github.io/sicp/
2020-07-19T04:40:59Z erkin: I started with the unofficial TeX e-book, then just bought a dead-tree copy for my birthday.
2020-07-19T04:41:59Z zaifir: The Little Schemer is great, although neither it nor SICP will teach you the whole Scheme language.
2020-07-19T04:42:38Z erkin: TSPL is a really good book that focuses on Scheme alone.
2020-07-19T04:43:09Z zaifir: Yeah.  Too bad it's hard to find and uses ... R2RS I think?
2020-07-19T04:43:31Z erkin: The newest edition uses R6RS!
2020-07-19T04:43:42Z zaifir: Oh wait, sorry, I was thinking of the Eisenberg book.
2020-07-19T04:43:44Z erkin: (2009)
2020-07-19T04:43:47Z erkin: Ah
2020-07-19T04:44:04Z erkin: It's also fully available online: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/
2020-07-19T04:44:21Z zaifir: Of course TSPL is R6RS, it's by Ronak, er, R. Kent Dybvig.
2020-07-19T04:44:48Z erkin: :-)
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2020-07-19T06:31:16Z zig: what is the replacement for phases in R7RS as described in http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs-Z-H-10.html#node_sec_7.2
2020-07-19T06:31:33Z zig: (if any)
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2020-07-19T14:37:49Z zig: adding docstrings and type checks to scheme base is not fun.
2020-07-19T14:40:00Z zig: especially since it is done at chez level, but I can not extract the information for documentation purpose
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2020-07-19T14:55:45Z gwatt:  zig: How are you adding docstrings?
2020-07-19T15:02:43Z zig: gwatt: Based on https://groups.google.com/g/chez-scheme/c/rWgGVh4CDgg
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2020-07-19T15:06:15Z gwatt: Ah yep. Are you going to worry about tracking renames?
2020-07-19T15:09:54Z zig: I do not rename since I need to add typechecks
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2020-07-19T15:10:36Z zig: e.g. (define bytevector-u8-ref (lambda (bv k) (assume? (bytevector? bv)) (assume (number? k)) (r6:bytevector-u8-ref bv k)))
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2020-07-19T17:46:19Z ecraven: zig: have you checked of r7rs-swank does docstrings on chez? works well, and no problems with aliasing / renaming
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2020-07-20T00:42:48Z devon: Hello Schemers!  Wondering if CL-style macrology is possible in R7RS small?
2020-07-20T00:44:40Z bitmapper: you mean defmacro style?
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2020-07-20T01:10:20Z devon: Yes, the ability to generate arbitrary code.
2020-07-20T01:17:17Z bitmapper: yes
2020-07-20T01:17:23Z bitmapper: you can do it with syntax-case
2020-07-20T01:44:21Z seepel: As far as I know, R7RS only has syntax-rules. Though most scheme implementations I've seen do have some sort of procedural macros. Often syntax-case, though some have renaming macros (explicit/implicit) or syntactic closures.
2020-07-20T01:44:51Z Riastradh: devon: syntax-rules has the ability to generate arbitrary code.  What are you specifically trying to do?
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2020-07-20T02:31:56Z jcowan: R7RS-large will have either syntax-case, explicit renaming, both, or neither.
2020-07-20T02:32:42Z Riastradh: i predict the economy will either grow, or shrink
2020-07-20T02:36:55Z seepel: or neither...
2020-07-20T02:47:11Z foof: I predict it will do both.
2020-07-20T02:48:16Z mdhughes: (random-choice 01 10 11 00)
2020-07-20T02:49:58Z Riastradh: quantum superposition macros
2020-07-20T02:50:13Z Riastradh: complex linear combination of macros
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2020-07-20T06:20:30Z zig: ecraven: I am not sure how r7rs-swank does docstrings.
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2020-07-20T06:27:59Z ecraven: (define (foo x) "docstring" (+ x 1)), then extract "docstring" from chez's internal representation
2020-07-20T06:28:23Z ecraven: specific/chez.ss function $binding-documentation
2020-07-20T06:28:39Z ecraven: (inspect/object procedure) is the relevant entry point
2020-07-20T06:28:48Z ecraven: works fine for non-case-lambda lambdas
2020-07-20T06:34:08Z ecraven: jcowan: syntactic closures don't qualify because only MIT/GNU has them?
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2020-07-20T07:35:59Z wasamasa: I remember an egg for that
2020-07-20T07:36:26Z wasamasa: ouch, it's for C3
2020-07-20T07:38:19Z wasamasa: then there's this thing I haven't really looked into: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/procedural-macros
2020-07-20T07:39:58Z wasamasa: ah, it reuses ER macros
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2020-07-20T11:56:30Z jcowan: ecraven: MIT, Picrin, and Chibi.  But all SC systems have ER macros also.
2020-07-20T11:57:14Z ecraven: I don't quite remember whether ER or SC are "nicer" to use.. can they be implemented in terms of each other?
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2020-07-20T12:03:34Z jcowan: I don't know.  I suspect that SC can be implemented on top of ER, but since Will Clinger calls SC too confusing for him, I think it is probably too confusing for me.
2020-07-20T12:09:07Z wasamasa: hum, found this: https://terbium.io/2020/05/macros-scheme/
2020-07-20T12:12:22Z wasamasa: so it seems that you can implement ER on top of SC :D
2020-07-20T12:16:20Z LeoNerd: "ER" in this context?
2020-07-20T12:16:45Z rgherdt: explicit renaming
2020-07-20T12:17:07Z zig: +1
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2020-07-20T13:15:48Z jcowan: Gauche, MIT, and Chicken are the major holdouts against syntax-case, and all of them provide ER.  OTOH, SRFI 72 (which Larceny uses) can do syntax-case on top of ER, and Chibi's syntax-case lives on top of Chibi's ER with just a small patch.
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2020-07-20T13:27:49Z gwatt: jcowan: does chibi support the #' #` #, #,@ forms?
2020-07-20T13:28:36Z jcowan: Yes
2020-07-20T13:29:26Z jcowan: Of course lexical syntax extensions can't be done portably.
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2020-07-20T14:02:49Z gwatt: sure
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2020-07-20T14:21:46Z jcowan: Portable and extensible implementations of read, write*, and display would be Good Things to have around.  It doesn't make that much sense for every Scheme implementer to write their own.
2020-07-20T14:27:53Z gwatt: Wouldn't that require that every scheme support the same external forms and reader marks?
2020-07-20T14:29:51Z gwatt: which is fine for the normal s-expressions, but is everyone going to agree on a gensym syntax or a record syntax?
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2020-07-20T14:47:43Z Oxyd: What language would they be implemented in? Clearly not Scheme because to execute Scheme code, you have to first (read) it.
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2020-07-20T14:51:03Z Blukunfando: Unless you already have a self-hosting Scheme compiler.
2020-07-20T14:53:14Z Oxyd: Are there any such compilers?
2020-07-20T14:53:32Z gwatt: chez, loko
2020-07-20T14:54:13Z Oxyd: Huh? Chez definitely has C parts in it. Are you saying that it contains a C compiler in Scheme?
2020-07-20T14:55:36Z gwatt: Oxyd: the C parts exist to facilitate talking to the OS and loading the already compiled scheme code. Almost all of the system is written in scheme, including the reader
2020-07-20T14:56:17Z Oxyd: Interpreting your answer as “No, it doesn't.” Then it's not self-hosting, because it requires a C compiler.
2020-07-20T14:56:38Z gwatt: Oxyd: it's self hosting because it requires itself to compile itself
2020-07-20T14:56:57Z wasamasa: not self-hosting to a fault :P
2020-07-20T14:57:10Z Oxyd: I see. I normally interpret self-hosting as requiring nothing but itself.
2020-07-20T14:57:33Z wasamasa: that's a much stricter requirement
2020-07-20T14:57:41Z jcowan: Loko qualifies, though
2020-07-20T14:57:50Z wasamasa: especially if you consider toolchains and how terrible they are to get going
2020-07-20T14:58:32Z jcowan: But to answer Oxyd's question: in a portable subset of Scheme, probably R5RS.  There are non-R5RS Schemes out there, it's true.
2020-07-20T14:59:13Z jcowan: gwatt: That's why I said the library needed to be extensible, preferably less crudely than CL readtables.
2020-07-20T15:00:26Z Oxyd: But wouldn't that still only be of any use to the self-hosting Schemes? That is, the two of them?
2020-07-20T15:02:19Z jcowan: Most Schemes implement their readers and writers in Scheme, so this would be almost a drop-in replacement: use the hooks to implement your extensions, and there you go.
2020-07-20T15:02:59Z Oxyd: So how do they read their readers?
2020-07-20T15:03:00Z jcowan: SICL is a new CL underway that is written entirely in CL with no C bootstrap at all.
2020-07-20T15:03:35Z jcowan: Oxyd: That is indeed a problem for interpreters, but compilers can compile the new reader using the old reader once and for all.
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2020-07-20T15:05:50Z Oxyd: Right, so read the reader, output it in an intermediate representation, then load it with an intermediate-representation reader.
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2020-07-20T15:18:29Z wasamasa: http://jakob.space/blog/thoughts-on-lisps.html
2020-07-20T15:19:29Z wasamasa: I'm kind of surprised the author describes chez' error traces as even worse than CHICKEN :D
2020-07-20T15:34:49Z gwatt: It's probably because the trace doesn't really exist
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2020-07-20T15:35:23Z wasamasa: rudybot: there is no spoon
2020-07-20T15:35:27Z rudybot: wasamasa: "There is NO spoon" LOL
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2020-07-20T15:35:55Z gwatt: You can see the continuation, but not a traditional call stack.
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2020-07-20T19:27:35Z autumn[m]: wrt selfhosting: i think i read that the guix bootstrapping project uses a "mutually self-hosting scheme and C compiler"(?) whilst pushing towards building guile (https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/ , https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2020/guix-further-reduces-bootstrap-seed-to-25/ )
2020-07-20T19:28:05Z autumn[m]: ...well, and/or towards building early userspace, or something
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2020-07-20T19:54:04Z jcowan: There is no spoon, and I am bending it.
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2020-07-20T20:13:57Z zig: I just got the joke.
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2020-07-21T02:48:02Z zaifir: Does it make sense that (bytevector-uint-set! b 0 1 (endianness SYM) 4) produces the bytevector #u8(1 0 0 0) regardless of whether SYM is 'big or 'little?
2020-07-21T02:49:31Z zaifir: Unless I'm completely tunnel-visioned, 'big should give #u8(0 0 0 1), no?
2020-07-21T02:51:37Z zaifir: (`b' here is some already-allocated length-4 bytevector.)
2020-07-21T02:59:43Z jcowan: It should indeed.  Perhaps there is a bug in the SRFI 4 implementation.
2020-07-21T03:17:18Z zaifir: That would be a surprise.  But yes, same results with the portable implementation in both Chibi and CHICKEN 5.
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2020-07-21T03:24:24Z gwatt: chez gives the expected answer
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2020-07-21T03:39:33Z jcowan: Try an R6RS implementation,then.
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2020-07-21T03:44:42Z zaifir: Oops!  'big is not an endianness; big is.
2020-07-21T03:45:21Z zaifir: Guile clued me in to my mistake: "unsupported endianness".
2020-07-21T03:45:33Z zaifir: Thanks for the help.  All is right.
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2020-07-21T03:50:19Z aeth: My one month break from Airship Scheme's up, it has been two months!
2020-07-21T03:50:46Z aeth: it was amusing to keep pushing the milestones back until eventually I said eff it and removed the dates for now
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2020-07-21T03:52:39Z aeth: I'll probably start with #17 before going back on track... i.e. writing a basic bilingual test suite that can run both Airship Scheme and CL tests.
2020-07-21T03:53:36Z aeth: Even though without completing the reader I can't really do the Scheme part yet.
2020-07-21T03:54:18Z aeth: It's just too painful making changes with ad hoc repl tests that can break anything in the language at any moment. I guess it's fine when it's not a whole programming language. :-p
2020-07-21T03:55:11Z jcowan: zaifir: You can say (endianness big) or 'big, either one works.
2020-07-21T03:55:39Z jcowan: Supposedly the first version is to help the compiler optimize the call, but I suspect most compilers don't bother.
2020-07-21T03:56:12Z aeth: is (scheme big) how you enable r7rs large from r7rs small?
2020-07-21T03:57:25Z zaifir: (big mclarge huge)
2020-07-21T03:57:47Z zaifir: jcowan: Thanks, that makes sense.
2020-07-21T03:57:58Z aeth: zaifir: r7rs-huge is going to have quaternions and matrices
2020-07-21T03:58:18Z jcowan: Matrices might be in -large
2020-07-21T03:58:22Z aeth: nice
2020-07-21T03:58:27Z jcowan: I still want to have float8 integers, though
2020-07-21T03:59:03Z zaifir: So 'big is a valid endianness, as is (endianness big), but not (endianness 'big).
2020-07-21T03:59:06Z aeth: technically r7rs-small already has quaternions, but only if j and k are 0
2020-07-21T03:59:17Z zaifir: Matrices would be nice indeed.
2020-07-21T03:59:42Z aeth: if you have 2D arrays you are most of the way to matrices
2020-07-21T03:59:57Z aeth: the only problem is C libraries like OpenGL will want 1D arrays for matrices :-(
2020-07-21T04:00:21Z Riastradh: c'mon, go for arbitrary-rank tensors
2020-07-21T04:00:47Z aeth: And by "most of the way to matrices" I mean you "only" need matrix multiplication. I do love the infobox at the top of the Wikipedia article... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_multiplication_algorithm
2020-07-21T04:00:57Z aeth: "Unsolved problem in computer science"
2020-07-21T04:01:12Z aeth: Always good when you "only" need to use one of those :-p
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2020-07-21T04:04:31Z aeth: Riastradh: are you involved in the r7rs-large process?
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2020-07-21T04:04:43Z Riastradh: aeth: are stadtler and waldorf involved in the muppet show
2020-07-21T04:06:50Z jcowan: aeth: SRFI 179 does do n-dimensional arrays as vectors or homogeneous vectors with a layer on top.
2020-07-21T04:07:57Z jcowan: I have to go through ISO APL and see what array operators that depend on numeric values there are.  Matrix multiplication is in any case just an inner product, which is trivial to write on top of 179, or ought to be.
2020-07-21T04:08:15Z jcowan: (How to generalize it to >2D is hard for me to follow.)
2020-07-21T04:10:51Z Riastradh: Tensor contraction!
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2020-07-21T05:32:44Z foof: Riastradh: yes, more so than you are involved in R7RS :P
2020-07-21T05:42:40Z zaifir: Dohohohoho!
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2020-07-21T08:07:03Z lockywolf: ecraven, are you the developer behind geiser-chibi?
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2020-07-21T08:13:39Z ecraven: I think I might have written the code, but I haven't looked at it in years
2020-07-21T08:13:47Z ecraven: I still find slime/swank superior to geiser :-/
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2020-07-21T11:57:50Z zig: Using R7RS, what is the replacement of (import (for (library foo bar) expand)) ?
2020-07-21T12:06:50Z zig: aka explicit phasing \cc jcowan
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2020-07-21T12:07:56Z jcowan: I'm almost certain that R7RS-large will have implicit phasing.  Other than Racket, which uses hyperexplicit phasing, the only explicit phasing system left standing is Larceny, and that's just depending on Clinger having time to fix it.
2020-07-21T12:08:29Z jcowan: By "hyperexplicit" I mean that it is possible to give identifiers different meanings at different phases, which is not possible in R6RS.
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2020-07-21T12:16:15Z zig: tx
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2020-07-21T12:18:44Z zig: another question, what is called the mechanic that allows to reference a procedure in a macro and only export the macro?
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2020-07-21T12:28:12Z jcowan: zig: "implicit export" in R6RS 7.1.  I know that Chibi does not do this, and I am dubious about the theory of it: IMO it is better to always have a procedural interface as well as a macro interface, even if the procedural interface is not standardized.
2020-07-21T12:29:32Z zig: ah yes! ty!
2020-07-21T12:30:07Z zig: re procedural interface: that is not the case of srfi-9 define-record-type, is it?
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2020-07-21T12:46:20Z jcowan: Actually I was wrong: Chibi does support it.
2020-07-21T12:47:10Z jcowan: If you define a macro franny to call zooey, but zooey is not defined, you get an error like this:  ERROR on line 7 of file ./franny.sld: undefined variable: #>
2020-07-21T12:47:37Z jcowan: so evidently the call on zooey is transformed into a call on an anonymous SC
2020-07-21T12:48:30Z jcowan: Therefore defining zooey after importing (franny) will not work, because it has the wrong name.
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2020-07-21T12:52:05Z lockywolf_: ecraven, I don't disagree, just thinking whether getting write permissions at the geiser/chibi repo is gonna hurt me in any wa
2020-07-21T12:52:06Z lockywolf_: y
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2020-07-21T14:42:43Z Oxyd: With the “implicit export” stuff, are we talking about a situation like (define (foo) …) (define-syntax bar (syntax-rules () ((bar) (foo)))), where only bar is exported but foo is not?
2020-07-21T14:44:37Z gwatt: yes
2020-07-21T14:45:01Z Oxyd: Isn't that just hygiene?
2020-07-21T14:45:34Z Oxyd: Even if foo were exported, there's no telling that it'll be imported under the same name, and that foo won't refer to something else wherever the macro happens to be used.
2020-07-21T14:48:16Z zig: yep
2020-07-21T14:48:33Z zig: That is exactly the tricky situation I am in.
2020-07-21T14:49:18Z zig: Chez scheme, with `module` form, has a "implicit export" featuer, so it might rename the exported symbol inside the expanded macro or something.
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2020-07-21T14:51:38Z Oxyd: I suppose that if the Scheme implements hygiene by renaming identifiers, it'll have to implicitly export every symbol mentioned in a macro's expansion and give it some unique name.
2020-07-21T14:51:56Z gwatt: Oxyd: hygiene is a concern during any macro expansion. With implicit exports however, you have another problem of the expansion needing to reference unexported identifiers while not allowing them to be referenced otherwise.
2020-07-21T14:52:01Z Oxyd: Sounds easier with syntactic closures, where the macro simply wraps its output in a closure of the transformer's environment.
2020-07-21T14:52:31Z Riastradh: In Scheme48 if a (low-level) macro refers to a name you're required to specify it so the system knows which names are actually potentially exported by a macro or not.
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2020-07-21T17:02:55Z ecraven: lockywolf__: feel free to rewrite it all, I won't be offended ;)
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2020-07-21T23:17:57Z aeth: jcowan: Iirc, you provided a rationalize implementation here a few months ago? What's the license/origin of the code and can I use it? I think I might move it out of issue #1 (since a Scheme implementation of rationalize would depend on issue #2, the Scheme reader) and use the pure-Scheme version
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2020-07-21T23:25:01Z aeth: I'm almost able to close #1... just need to do the circularity test in equal? and probably postpone rationalize to another (possibly new) issue
2020-07-21T23:27:08Z jcowan: It's from the IEEE spec. However, it was contributed by Alan Bawden, and I'm sure he would have no objection to anyone using it.
2020-07-21T23:36:42Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/issues/19
2020-07-21T23:42:41Z aeth: I'm probably going to do #1 (just equal? now) #2 (the reader), #3 (internal representation of procedures/environments), #7 (I/O), #11 (various core macros/syntax), and #12 (define-library) in that order...
2020-07-21T23:43:19Z aeth: and after that I might skip to #17 (tests) now that they'll be implementable, which could set me back a while now that I'll be able to discover ancient bugs in everything already written
2020-07-21T23:46:33Z aeth: I should've done this all in Java so that I could feel more accomplishment. So far, only 2161 lines of code...
2020-07-21T23:49:36Z jcowan snickers
2020-07-21T23:49:59Z jcowan: "The ancient political fishlike bug"
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2020-07-22T00:14:14Z aeth: heh, I just realized how Lovecraftian "discover ancient bugs in everything already written" sounds
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2020-07-22T01:23:11Z lockywolf: ecraven, I wouldn't mind if you also accept Jao's invitation to be come a maintainer :)
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2020-07-22T10:03:10Z ManDay: Can someone explain the relation between fixnum and exact integers, please? I'm confused because from the r6rs standard, exactness is a requirement, while in the library it is said that fixnums must only exist within a limited range
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2020-07-22T10:03:53Z wasamasa: I suspect fixnum is about a machine-specific integer range and exact integers about an unlimited range
2020-07-22T10:04:15Z wasamasa: think of int64 vs arbitrary sized bignums
2020-07-22T10:05:41Z ManDay: so the point of "fixnums" in the library spec is to provide a opaque notion of "high performance exact integers" (as opposed to the general arbitrary-precision requirements in the language spec)?
2020-07-22T10:06:29Z wasamasa: yup, looking at r6rs it's indeed about common machine number representations
2020-07-22T10:06:39Z wasamasa: see section 3.3
2020-07-22T10:09:08Z ManDay: i fail to read that out of 3.3
2020-07-22T10:09:33Z wasamasa: not in 3 either?
2020-07-22T10:10:29Z ManDay: i just don't see it giving the motivation that you just mentioned to me (about higher performance on a subset)
2020-07-22T10:10:51Z ManDay: it just says "take a subset of exact integers and call it 'fixnums'", and I wonder: then what?
2020-07-22T10:11:38Z wasamasa: do high-performance math with them :P
2020-07-22T10:12:46Z wasamasa: the libraries document shows fixnum-only procedures
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2020-07-22T10:13:35Z ManDay: yeah no, i got it. it's just that the explanation for their existence (like you gave it) doesn't seem to be spelled out in the spec
2020-07-22T10:13:50Z ManDay: that's what I meant by "i fail to read that out of 3.3"
2020-07-22T10:14:14Z ManDay: i.e., why would I use fixnums over the normal exact integers
2020-07-22T10:17:37Z wasamasa: suppose you want to write some tight loop, like a raytracer or something
2020-07-22T10:17:57Z ManDay: wasamasa: yes, I understand!
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2020-07-22T10:18:06Z wasamasa: so if your scheme supports these machine-specific flonums and you stay in their range and use the right optimization or procedures, that helps with performance
2020-07-22T10:18:17Z ManDay: i get it: high perf. that's the reason. but the reason is not explained in the spec.
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2020-07-22T10:20:11Z ManDay: also, it's a bit suspicious. If I write  and do calculation with it, will scheme check whether it's in the fixnum range and treat as a fixnum and if not, as arbitrary integer? this weak typing and the implied checks seem somewhat contraditory to high performance
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2020-07-22T10:20:38Z wasamasa: it depends on how smart the compiler is
2020-07-22T10:20:50Z wasamasa: there are some that can do float unboxing
2020-07-22T10:21:19Z wasamasa: using the flonum procedures would be a good hint for one
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2020-07-22T10:26:33Z ManDay: wasamasa: i'm currently writing a library that's related to integer arithmetic and will work on operations between different integer lattices. I'm free to define the range of these lattices (it's to see how well I can preserve precision under certain operations) and so I wonder will it be of any use if I restrict the lattices to the fixnum range? I'm having a hard time believing that a compiler
2020-07-22T10:26:35Z ManDay: (guile) can be as smart as figuring it out that I've constructed the operations such that all operations will remain within the lattice (thus fixnum) range. I'd think it will check at every step and I will gain nothing at all.
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2020-07-22T10:28:06Z zig: AFAIU the fixnum have fixed range per implementation, if you know you will not go beyond the max value, use fx+ et al. otherwise just use +
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2020-07-22T10:28:34Z ManDay: zig: Ah, of course, yes!
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2020-07-22T10:29:28Z wasamasa: the usual caveats apply, like just using that on code you've proven correct because it might otherwise fail silently
2020-07-22T10:30:10Z ManDay: yeah well, that would be a pain in the back to track down
2020-07-22T10:30:19Z ManDay: i'll stick with "+" for now :-P
2020-07-22T10:35:34Z zig: The only place I saw fixnums is for bytevector indices
2020-07-22T10:36:00Z zig: but I do not do a lot of math operations.
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2020-07-22T10:47:39Z ManDay: well, no one actually said that fixnums *would* bring a performance advantage if they are used :-D
2020-07-22T10:47:59Z ManDay: might just be one big "TO DO" in the compiler's source that no one ever touched...
2020-07-22T10:48:06Z ManDay: so i don't think it's worth the effort, actually
2020-07-22T10:48:23Z ManDay: but then, maybe I'll just replace all "+" with "fx+" later
2020-07-22T10:49:15Z weinholt: ManDay, fixnums are slower on guile than regular arithmetic, they are implemented as regular arithmetic with extra checks. other implementations, like chez, work differently
2020-07-22T10:49:39Z ManDay: weinholt: heh, just like I said xD
2020-07-22T10:49:51Z ManDay: thanks for the insight ;)
2020-07-22T10:54:44Z weinholt: wingo has also said that code like (bitwise-and #xffffffff x) is a more sensible way to write 32-bit arithmetic, since it lets the compiler truncate the result to 32 bits without any checks, but i haven't checked if this type of code is optimized yet in guile
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2020-07-22T11:11:07Z ManDay: I keep getting confused with guile modules, import, export, use-modules and libraries. is there any page which explains the difference well?
2020-07-22T11:11:24Z ManDay: I think I'm using a weird mix of them in my code
2020-07-22T11:12:25Z ManDay: ah i think I can answer my own questino
2020-07-22T11:12:27Z ManDay: https://gnu.huihoo.org/guile/2.0/R6RS-Libraries.html
2020-07-22T11:12:44Z ManDay: modules were probably introduced into guile before r6rs and now we have libraries, we should probably use them
2020-07-22T11:17:06Z ManDay: hm, when I wrote it using guile's modules I could close the form and write my library after it, with r6rs it all has to go in the form (indent++, how awful)!
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2020-07-22T14:31:16Z ManDay: Why that ".0" at the end of +inf and +nan ?
2020-07-22T14:31:43Z ManDay: it's quite ugly
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2020-07-22T14:39:43Z ManDay: Another, more fundamental subject
2020-07-22T14:39:45Z ManDay: :
2020-07-22T14:40:10Z zig: ?
2020-07-22T14:40:38Z ManDay: I wish there was a way to lexically scope something somewhere without writing it there. For readability.
2020-07-22T14:40:49Z zig: define?
2020-07-22T14:41:07Z zig: that sounds complicated.
2020-07-22T14:41:12Z ManDay: do you ask me to define my question more precisely or (define) ?
2020-07-22T14:41:42Z zig: I was thinking `define` form does that, but I am not sure what you want. Do you know a language that does what you describe?
2020-07-22T14:41:46Z ManDay: Well, I'm not a macro person but I suppose macros do that job. I just don't like macros.
2020-07-22T14:42:04Z ManDay: no, I don't know any other language. An example:
2020-07-22T14:43:31Z ManDay: I write a closure which closes over some stuff in a function, but that closure is lengthy and has a lot of indent. Placing it "inline" as required for lexical scope is very bad for reading the code.
2020-07-22T14:44:51Z ManDay: So I'd just like to place it somewhere else. With no effect other than it's written somewhere else. But without the need to pass in the closed-over variables like I had to if I used a define
2020-07-22T14:45:26Z zig: I think I get it. I have this problem when writing code in CPS and relying on set! to change some global state
2020-07-22T14:45:56Z zig: if you do not rely on set! you can create a procedure and pass it the necessary argumments (and hence avoid the indentation)
2020-07-22T14:46:41Z zig: or, if you use set! you can wrap the variable in a box and pass it to a procedure, that would work too.
2020-07-22T14:49:22Z zig: ManDay: question are you relying on set!?
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2020-07-22T14:55:19Z gwatt: ManDay: but having a function body refer to things it can't see is also bad for code legibility.
2020-07-22T14:56:19Z gwatt: though I guess (include ) does what you want...
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2020-07-22T14:57:10Z ManDay: zig: no. but passing in all those things via a define... I don't know, feels weird, when they are automatically closed over if written in place
2020-07-22T14:57:26Z ManDay: gwatt: oh perhaps, i never used that, thanks!
2020-07-22T14:57:49Z ManDay: now that I discuss the issue I'm inclined to follow zig's method with the define though
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2020-07-22T15:25:24Z ManDay: I wish the comparison operators did return their first argument instead of #t...
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2020-07-22T15:28:09Z jcowan: ManDay: for what reason?
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2020-07-22T15:32:49Z ManDay: when I iterate to find a minimum in a list, I could do   (fold-left #f (lambda (old new) (or (and old (< new old)) new)) ...)
2020-07-22T15:32:58Z ManDay: assuming I used fold correctly ^^
2020-07-22T15:33:44Z gwatt: you can already do (fold-left min lst)
2020-07-22T15:33:56Z Riastradh: gwatt: need a starting value
2020-07-22T15:33:57Z ManDay: in any search for an extremum, "#f" would be the starting value for the extremum and I don't need a dedicated branch
2020-07-22T15:34:04Z gwatt: Riastradh: +inf.0
2020-07-22T15:34:12Z ManDay: yeah but infinities are ugly
2020-07-22T15:34:14Z Riastradh: But (reduce min #f l) works if you want to return #f for an empty list.
2020-07-22T15:34:19Z Riastradh: infinities are beautiful
2020-07-22T15:34:29Z ManDay: nah
2020-07-22T15:34:31Z ManDay: :-P
2020-07-22T15:35:39Z ManDay: look
2020-07-22T15:36:13Z ManDay: consider a case where you want to look for an extremum in a set of objects but there is no notion of an infinity.
2020-07-22T15:36:20Z ManDay: then what do you do?
2020-07-22T15:36:37Z ManDay: well, I'd say define the comparison operator such that it returns the first object in case of success
2020-07-22T15:36:39Z ManDay: and there you go
2020-07-22T15:37:31Z Riastradh: Why would you want to do that for comparison operators?
2020-07-22T15:37:35Z Riastradh: Why don't you just use min and max?
2020-07-22T15:38:32Z Riastradh: And (reduce min #f l)?
2020-07-22T15:38:44Z zig: I think ManDay wants the tail where the first element is the min
2020-07-22T15:38:45Z zig: ?
2020-07-22T15:38:46Z gwatt: ManDay: For arithmetic comparisons that idea works but you have to be careful with the general equality checks
2020-07-22T15:39:02Z gwatt: ManDay: consider (equal? #f #f)
2020-07-22T15:39:11Z Riastradh: zig: tail?  That's not what something called `fold-left' usually does.
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2020-07-22T15:39:39Z ManDay: Riastradh: what is that?
2020-07-22T15:39:52Z ManDay: (reduce min #f (list 1 2 3 4)) gives you an error
2020-07-22T15:39:55Z ManDay: I'm pretty sure
2020-07-22T15:40:07Z Riastradh: (reduce min #f (list 1 2 3 4))
2020-07-22T15:40:08Z Riastradh: ;Value: 1
2020-07-22T15:40:11Z ManDay: gwatt: I don't get your point
2020-07-22T15:40:34Z ManDay: Riastradh: oops i didn't have reduce
2020-07-22T15:40:40Z ManDay: what's that in r6rs?
2020-07-22T15:40:42Z Riastradh: SRFI 1
2020-07-22T15:40:46Z ManDay: ah
2020-07-22T15:40:52Z Riastradh: dunno, never paid much attention to R6RS.
2020-07-22T15:41:45Z Riastradh: (is there fold-left in R6RS?)
2020-07-22T15:41:46Z gwatt: ManDay: r6rs doesn't have reduce
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2020-07-22T15:42:07Z ManDay: how does (reduce min #f l) work for you? Why does it not throw an error when #f is fed into min?
2020-07-22T15:42:07Z gwatt: Riastradh: fold-left/right both exist
2020-07-22T15:42:52Z gwatt: ManDay: according to srfi-1, the default value is only used if the list is empty
2020-07-22T15:42:59Z ManDay: in any case, i find that less proper than having the comparison operator return an object rather than a boolean
2020-07-22T15:43:03Z Riastradh: Anyway, (reduce f x '()) = x and (reduce f x (list a b c d)) = (f (f (f a b) c) d).
2020-07-22T15:43:34Z ManDay: ah
2020-07-22T15:43:37Z Riastradh: (or maybe the other way around, can't remember which way the arguments go)
2020-07-22T15:43:50Z ManDay: yeah well that's just min working then
2020-07-22T15:44:02Z ManDay: but assume you did not have min
2020-07-22T15:44:13Z gwatt: ManDay: do you want all comparison functions to return the first value if the comparison is true?
2020-07-22T15:44:17Z ManDay: then you'd have to go down my route and then I say having < return its first operand is nice
2020-07-22T15:44:20Z Riastradh: ...why would I assume I don't have min, _and_ want a comparison operator that returns some random non-false value sometimes?
2020-07-22T15:44:27Z ManDay: gwatt: yeah, that's what I had in mind
2020-07-22T15:44:31Z gwatt: including eq? eqv? equal? etc?
2020-07-22T15:44:43Z Riastradh: What happens if I want to put a total ordering on a set of objects that includes #f?
2020-07-22T15:45:07Z gwatt: such that (equal? "asdf" "asdf") => "asdf" ?
2020-07-22T15:45:43Z Riastradh: Is there any precedent in _any_ language for a boolean comparison operator returning a non-boolean?
2020-07-22T15:46:09Z ManDay: gwatt: ah, no, not equivalence relations. only transitive antisymmetric operators
2020-07-22T15:46:27Z ManDay: Riastradh: yeah, that wouldn't work
2020-07-22T15:46:37Z ManDay: why would you compare #f though, that's not realistic
2020-07-22T15:46:39Z ManDay: imho
2020-07-22T15:47:11Z ManDay: Riastradh: do you need a precedent to become better? :p
2020-07-22T15:49:25Z Riastradh: Sometimes you have a set of objects that you need to use as keys in an ordered table.  Sometimes you adjoin a special value to a set such as the integers representing something like `no position', and #f is a common choice of special value.
2020-07-22T15:49:47Z Riastradh: But what's an example of code that this actually makes clearer?
2020-07-22T15:51:43Z ManDay: i don't see a problem. in that case you just ignore the #f's. Indeed, in your case my "<"-feature doesn't help you, but it doesn't harm you either
2020-07-22T15:53:39Z Riastradh: But what _does_ it help?
2020-07-22T15:54:21Z ManDay: hypothetically, if you didn't have `min` at your disposal
2020-07-22T15:54:27Z Riastradh: ...how about in the real world?
2020-07-22T15:54:47Z ManDay: nah
2020-07-22T15:55:27Z Riastradh: Hypothetically, if I didn't have `min', I would define it!
2020-07-22T15:55:32Z Riastradh: Pretty useful function.
2020-07-22T15:55:46Z ManDay: no, it's an ugly, hackish function
2020-07-22T15:55:52Z ManDay: useful, perhaps, but not nice
2020-07-22T15:56:01Z ManDay: that "<" with first operand return would be elegant
2020-07-22T15:56:31Z Riastradh: This is a curious notion of `elegance'.  I'm curious to see how it makes any usage more elegant than (reduce min #f l).
2020-07-22T15:56:42Z ManDay: no need to discard information through "<". there is no case where returning the first operand would do any harm, its unambiguous
2020-07-22T15:57:03Z ManDay: Riastradh: again, that's only because all the uglyness is hidden behind the definition of `min`
2020-07-22T15:57:11Z Riastradh: ok
2020-07-22T15:57:13Z Riastradh: enjoy your beauty
2020-07-22T15:57:19Z ManDay: i don't have it
2020-07-22T15:57:23Z ManDay: but thanks :S
2020-07-22T15:57:25Z gwatt: ManDay: but your value returning < isn't a drop-in replacement for min
2020-07-22T15:58:02Z ManDay: gwatt: no, but it would render the definition of `min` more elegant
2020-07-22T15:58:26Z gwatt: it wouldn't really change the definition of min at all
2020-07-22T15:58:40Z Riastradh: How would it change (if (< x y) x y)?
2020-07-22T15:58:50Z ManDay: (define (min . l) (fold-left #f (lambda (old new) (or (and old (< new old)) new)) l))
2020-07-22T15:59:04Z ManDay: what is your definition of min?
2020-07-22T15:59:19Z Riastradh: (OK, that's not quite accurate; there's a bit more needed to handle NaN appropriately.)
2020-07-22T16:00:27Z Riastradh: If you want to extend it to n arguments, then:
2020-07-22T16:00:31Z Riastradh: (define (min2 x y) (if (< x y) x y))
2020-07-22T16:00:36Z gwatt: (or (and old (< new old)) new) isn't clearer than (if (< new old) new old)
2020-07-22T16:00:37Z Riastradh: (define (min . l) (reduce min2 #f l))
2020-07-22T16:04:11Z Riastradh: Aside from NaNs, you might need to apply inexact contagion in min2 -- but the point is that you can write an associative function min2 and then extend it to many arguments with reduce.
2020-07-22T16:05:26Z gwatt: Riastradh: you can define a single min with case-lambda!
2020-07-22T16:05:55Z Riastradh: gwatt: yes, you can do that too if you really want, but I tend to prefer to use a separate name for the binary case rather than recursion into the case-lambda.
2020-07-22T16:07:34Z jcowan: Riastradh: In Snobol and Icon, 3 < 4 returns 3, whereas 3 > 4 fails.
2020-07-22T16:07:48Z Riastradh: jcowan: wacky
2020-07-22T16:08:12Z gwatt: jcowan: is that to support comparison chaining? so you can do 3 < 4 < 5
2020-07-22T16:08:32Z gwatt: though, that's not right...
2020-07-22T16:11:55Z foof: what if it's right associative?
2020-07-22T16:12:16Z zaifir: In general, the whole "let's take a boolean-valued function and make it return more useful things" seems questionable to me, except in some obvious cases.
2020-07-22T16:12:47Z zaifir: any, every, etc.
2020-07-22T16:13:18Z foof: "are you for or against boolean-valued functions?"  "it depends..."
2020-07-22T16:13:49Z gwatt: foof: yes, I am for or against boolean-valued functions.
2020-07-22T16:13:56Z Riastradh: zaifir: I dunno if I've ever seen it useful for `every'.
2020-07-22T16:14:29Z foof: is there `any' case where it is?
2020-07-22T16:14:36Z zaifir: If someone asks that, give them a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, which is more useful than yes/now.
2020-07-22T16:14:42Z zaifir: s/now/no/
2020-07-22T16:15:02Z jcowan: Snobol/Icon has no concept of a boolean type anyway.
2020-07-22T16:15:46Z jcowan: The result of any function is a stream of results, where an empty stream = failure
2020-07-22T16:15:57Z Riastradh: foof: Can't think of any offhand but it's a little more plausible.
2020-07-22T16:16:20Z zaifir: jcowan: Sounds sort of like low-level Prolog.
2020-07-22T16:16:43Z jcowan: Indeed, Icon and Prolog are completely separate developments of the same idea.
2020-07-22T16:16:51Z jcowan: As is Conniver, while we on #scheme
2020-07-22T16:17:21Z DGASAU: Pf!
2020-07-22T16:17:30Z DGASAU: Fortran IV had no boolean type either.
2020-07-22T16:17:48Z DGASAU: Older BASIC didn't have it either.
2020-07-22T16:17:50Z jcowan: That's because it's older than the whole idea
2020-07-22T16:17:55Z jcowan: (F4)
2020-07-22T16:18:07Z DGASAU: Hm.
2020-07-22T16:18:12Z DGASAU: Prolog is older too.
2020-07-22T16:18:21Z DGASAU: SNOBOL is older too, AFAICR.
2020-07-22T16:18:32Z DGASAU: Icon... Well...
2020-07-22T16:18:35Z zaifir: C barely has a boolean type.
2020-07-22T16:19:16Z DGASAU: Icon is some sort of further development of SNOBOL. Thus I'm not sure if it is good example.
2020-07-22T16:19:21Z Riastradh: I dunno, bool is pretty boolean...
2020-07-22T16:19:53Z DGASAU: zaifir: so is another group of languages like AWK and Perl.
2020-07-22T16:20:53Z zaifir: Riastradh: Hopefully the compiler treats it as a separate type, and not just a flavor of int.
2020-07-22T16:21:48Z Riastradh: zaifir: It is an integer type, but it has special rules: if you convert any nonzero integer value to it, the result is always nonzero.  (In contrast, if you convert a nonzero (say) uint32_t to uint16_t, you are not guaranteed that the result is nonzero.)
2020-07-22T16:22:46Z zaifir: Riastradh: I didn't know that.  When was that requirement added?
2020-07-22T16:22:57Z Riastradh: >20 years ago
2020-07-22T16:23:02Z zaifir: ANSI C?
2020-07-22T16:23:08Z Riastradh: no later than C99
2020-07-22T16:23:13Z zaifir: OK.
2020-07-22T16:23:29Z Riastradh: (I don't pay attention to C<99.  It's been over two decades.)
2020-07-22T16:26:59Z zaifir: Same.  I stick to C99, although not from any fact-based rationale.
2020-07-22T16:28:49Z gwatt: I remember in college one of the phd students teaching the course complaining about C99 and wanted everyone to use C89. This would have been around 2010
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2020-07-22T16:47:03Z jcowan: And here I am working on B
2020-07-22T16:56:50Z jcowan: In any case, these other languages have representations of true and false as values, whereas Snobol/Icon/Prolog don't.
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2020-07-22T16:59:38Z gwatt: jcowan: so there's no way to do something like let foo = 3 < 4; if foo ... ?
2020-07-22T16:59:47Z jcowan: right
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2020-07-22T17:00:51Z jcowan: so yes, a < b < c does work correctly: it will fail if either arm fails
2020-07-22T17:01:21Z jcowan: To copy stdin to stdout:  while write(read())
2020-07-22T17:01:38Z jcowan: read fails rather than returning an EOF object, which means that write fails.
2020-07-22T17:02:36Z Riastradh: `eof object' is a crock
2020-07-22T17:03:01Z Riastradh: 1 ]=> (list #!eof)
2020-07-22T17:03:01Z Riastradh: ;Premature EOF on #[textual-i/o-port 12 for console]
2020-07-22T17:03:44Z jcowan: Well, in Chicken that returns (#!eof), which I consider to be the Right Thing
2020-07-22T17:04:39Z gwatt: same with Chez
2020-07-22T17:05:20Z gwatt: guile doesn't recognize the syntax #!eof and expects a comment
2020-07-22T17:05:38Z zaifir: Boo.
2020-07-22T17:06:05Z Riastradh: read a list of all objects in a file: (let loop ((l '())) (let ((x (read p))) (if (eof-object? x) (reverse! l) (loop (cons x l]
2020-07-22T17:06:13Z jcowan: I personally think that giving the EOF object a datum syntax is a Bad Idea
2020-07-22T17:06:20Z jcowan: (a readable one, I mean)
2020-07-22T17:09:24Z zaifir: It's probably more trouble than it's worth.
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2020-07-22T17:14:45Z zaifir: No one expects # to be readable.  It makes sense for there to be write-only notations.
2020-07-22T17:15:21Z jcowan: Indeed, in CL's standard readtable #< causes an immediate lexical syntax error
2020-07-22T17:15:33Z jcowan: so that is not only not rereadable, it cannot be
2020-07-22T17:16:54Z aeth: I like CL's system where you provide your own EOF, usually nil (in Scheme, this would probably be #f) for convenience, but potentially also :eof or even a gensym if you're really paranoid. Rather than placing it on the language to solve.
2020-07-22T17:17:02Z aeth: (And if you don't, then it just errors.)
2020-07-22T17:17:24Z Riastradh: case x of Nothing -> ...; Just x -> ...
2020-07-22T17:17:30Z aeth: And sometimes you don't need anything special for EOF. Sure, with READ there could be ambiguity, but with READ-LINE, if it's not a string then whatever you provide has to be the EOF.
2020-07-22T17:18:52Z aeth: EOF might be the only common place in CL where a gensym outside of a macro makes sense, at least that I know of.
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2020-07-22T17:19:37Z aeth: But, honestly, if someone provides :eof in the middle of something being read, that's probably what they want to do, anyway.
2020-07-22T17:24:30Z aeth: That being said, cl:read in Airship Scheme will probably default to (eof-object) when eof-error? is #f instead of CL:NIL or #f and that will probably be a stored gensym.
2020-07-22T17:24:37Z zaifir: It's easy to wrap read in generation->maybe now.
2020-07-22T17:25:04Z aeth: hmm, actually, I probably can't do what I'm just saying because that could hurt translating CL into AS
2020-07-22T17:25:16Z aeth: Since only #f is falsey
2020-07-22T17:26:04Z aeth: Rigorously you should do e.g. (read-line stream nil nil) but since the second optional value defaults to nil, there's probably a lot of (read-line stream nil) assuming a falsey value.
2020-07-22T17:26:27Z Riastradh: rigorously you should use a lalr parser generator with a push-style state machine
2020-07-22T17:27:19Z aeth: Riastradh: no... looping over read-line until EOF and running a regex library on each line makes the Lisp/Scheme you're using an acceptable Perl... so of course that's what everyone must do
2020-07-22T17:28:53Z aeth: hmm, I don't think R7RS prevents extra optional arguments at the end so maybe airship:read-line would be (read-line stream #f (eof-value) #f) as its defaults while cl:read-line would be (cl:read-line stream #t #f #f)
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2020-07-22T17:49:03Z ecraven: jcowan: #!eof is nice for commenting out everything below it
2020-07-22T17:49:25Z jcowan: #|...|#
2020-07-22T17:50:54Z aeth: (exit)
2020-07-22T17:50:56Z aeth: or (quit)
2020-07-22T17:51:06Z aeth: whichever the Scheme uses
2020-07-22T17:51:12Z aeth: Although that wouldn't really work with an interactive SLIME-style use
2020-07-22T17:52:01Z ecraven: jcowan: just saying, it's a quick way to debug errors when loading a file, and simpler to insert than #| *and* |# both
2020-07-22T17:52:15Z ecraven: that's about the only justification I can think of for it having read-syntax
2020-07-22T17:52:47Z aeth: (exit) exits the program in r7rs-small, so the other common command to do the same thing (quit) could just quit the file loading
2020-07-22T17:53:23Z aeth: Hmm, no, that wouldn't work because it's not being done at the reader
2020-07-22T17:53:49Z aeth: I was thinking too much like a script and not enough like a Lisp image.
2020-07-22T17:54:37Z zaifir: Just delete the rest of the file.  It's under version control, right?
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2020-07-22T17:55:21Z ecraven: still much more involved than just moving #!eof around a bit.. I'm not saying this is a very good idea, just trying to find *some* use of it ;)
2020-07-22T17:56:29Z aeth: zaifir: deleting the rest of the file is C-space M-> C-w which is harder to type than it looks since > probably requires shift... and it pollutes your clipboard with something massive that would be really inconvenient to potentially accidentally paste
2020-07-22T17:56:57Z aeth: Oh, sorry... C-space M-> C-w C-x C-s
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2020-07-22T17:57:33Z zaifir: aeth: You mean .,$d ?
2020-07-22T17:57:53Z zaifir: aeth: There are at least two text editors in existence.
2020-07-22T17:59:36Z aeth: zaifir: shouldn't there be a w in there since you need to write the file for it to be read again by an external program?
2020-07-22T18:00:20Z zaifir: aeth: Yes.
2020-07-22T18:00:34Z aeth: and conciseness like that just means you increase the likelihood of a typo messing things up and wasting a few more seconds while you undo imo.
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2020-07-22T18:01:00Z aeth: editing is going to inherently be more involved than adding text
2020-07-22T18:01:15Z zaifir: Yes, ed commands would be much less susceptible to error if we added a few dozen modifier keys. :-)
2020-07-22T18:01:19Z aeth: And most editors we weren't talking about would require taking your hand off for mice...
2020-07-22T18:01:40Z aeth: zaifir: or https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FootSwitches
2020-07-22T18:01:42Z Riastradh: \bye
2020-07-22T18:02:06Z zaifir: (That's it, I promise.  No holy wars, today.(
2020-07-22T18:02:14Z zaifir: s/(/)/, ugh.
2020-07-22T18:02:35Z aeth: I mean, we're all obviously DrRacket users instead anyway ;-)
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2020-07-22T18:04:47Z aeth: zaifir: but no matter what the editor is (or even just readline), there are only two valid keybindings: vim and emacs :-p
2020-07-22T18:05:03Z Riastradh: (\endinput is sometimes used to write end matter in TeX files.)
2020-07-22T18:05:04Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if half the Emacs users use vim keys, anyway.
2020-07-22T18:05:22Z zaifir: Actually, I think "both" keybinding flavors are rather inelegant.
2020-07-22T18:05:44Z aeth: eh, the standard Microsoft keybindings that are often cloned in Linux outside of the terminal (where readline is near-universal) seem to be worse.
2020-07-22T18:05:51Z aeth: e.g. C-a vs. HOME
2020-07-22T18:05:59Z aeth: C-e vs. END
2020-07-22T18:06:16Z zaifir: Yeah.  I learned recently-ish that GTK, at least, offers Emacs keybindings.
2020-07-22T18:06:22Z aeth: M-b vs. Ctrl+left
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2020-07-22T18:06:38Z aeth: I learned recently-ish that Emacs keybindings are the norm for Mac GUIs, apparently.
2020-07-22T18:06:53Z zaifir: Huh.
2020-07-22T18:06:58Z aeth: well, probably more like readline
2020-07-22T18:07:39Z aeth: or maybe it's just an option, idk, but I remember reading that a short while ago
2020-07-22T18:08:02Z zaifir: Graphical sam is a pretty good example of what can be done as a text editor without a keybinding language.  But there are time when the mouse language gets really klutzy, e.g. repeatedly moving point.
2020-07-22T18:08:14Z zaifir: s/time/times/
2020-07-22T18:08:19Z ecraven: doesn't same have an extensive language?
2020-07-22T18:08:36Z aeth: zaifir: isn't sam mouse-oriented? Sounds like a nightmare. I don't want to have to use a mouse to work with text. I'm fine with using a mouse in e.g. GIMP or Blender, of course. And maybe text selection (and ONLY that) is easier with a mouse
2020-07-22T18:09:05Z zaifir: ecraven: The command language is pretty tiny, nearly as small as ed's.
2020-07-22T18:09:21Z aeth: To me sam sounds like a failed experiment from back when the mouse was novel and people were overly enthusiastic about it
2020-07-22T18:09:39Z ecraven: isn't same the one with "x" to narrow onto all matches? was it called "structural regular expressions"?
2020-07-22T18:09:43Z ecraven: that's a very interesting language!
2020-07-22T18:09:47Z zaifir: ecraven: Yes.
2020-07-22T18:09:55Z aeth: Generally, the mouse is easier for new users and keyboard shortcuts are easier for power users... so for power users, literally any other text editor from the 1980s would be superior to sam.
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2020-07-22T18:10:12Z zaifir: aeth: There is a case for adding a small set of "move point" keys to samterm.
2020-07-22T18:10:29Z aeth: oh, it's an addition? Then it was demoed poorly, at least the ones I saw.
2020-07-22T18:11:39Z zaifir: vis is a vilike with structural regexes, if anyone wants to mess with them: https://github.com/martanne/vis
2020-07-22T18:13:21Z aeth: oh sorry, I parsed that wrong, "there is a case for... keys" so mouse is by default required
2020-07-22T18:13:27Z zaifir: The two-sided blade of sregexes is that they are indifferent to lines, so the good old ed/ex/vim g and s commands often win over x, g, v, and c for conciseness.
2020-07-22T18:13:28Z aeth: yeah, I think it was overethusiastically pro-mouse
2020-07-22T18:15:39Z zaifir: Mouse, good.  Only mouse, bad.
2020-07-22T18:15:39Z aeth: Even though I just trashed Windows keys, the traditional Windows UI did something correct. Consistent use of the menu bar could be used to introduce people to the key bindings gradually over time, offering a much better learning curve than the Unix tools have.
2020-07-22T18:17:06Z aeth: Firefox still has the keys, even though the menu bar is hidden by default until you press ALT. So I'll demonstrate with it. "Alt F" to bring up the file menu. Then you can see that you can "Alt F t" to open a new tab since _t_ is underlined. And you can see next to it that it's Ctrl+t so if you're constantly using it, you can use the more convenient binding.
2020-07-22T18:17:32Z aeth: If it exists, of course. Firefox has some functionality I have to use via menus. I use "Alt t s" to synchronize.
2020-07-22T18:18:46Z aeth: Emacs has a menu bar, but it's not as convient since alt (meta) is already in use, and I just turn it off because it's nowhere near as useful as Firefox's at actually discovering keyboard shortcuts.
2020-07-22T18:18:53Z aeth: *convenient
2020-07-22T18:20:03Z gwatt: I liked acme, but I never really used sam.
2020-07-22T18:26:50Z jcowan: There really isn't a lot of difference between #|#| on the one hand, and #!eof.  7 chars vs 9 chars, if "jump to end" is a single command
2020-07-22T18:27:28Z jcowan: even less if you don't need to explicitly switch between insert mode and command mode.
2020-07-22T18:27:59Z jcowan: gwatt: I really want to use sam -d, but it needs a few more features to suit me.
2020-07-22T18:28:18Z aeth: in eamcs keys: #| M-> |#
2020-07-22T18:28:28Z aeth: *emacs
2020-07-22T18:28:44Z aeth: might be a rare case where emacs is faster since it's just one command.
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2020-07-22T20:40:43Z aeth: I rushed to finish #1 because there's a thunderstorm and I might lose power... so I technically left it with some stuff I can clean up later (e.g. not sure if I have to test *both* lists for a cycle, or if multiple cycles need to be special cased), but this should work for non-lazy lists: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/0c884dfbbbdce39a297e2c391fe91de18399a9bb/scheme-core.lisp#L77-106
2020-07-22T20:40:44Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/mlv4D95gdK
2020-07-22T20:41:46Z aeth: maybe ##lisp would be better but I've seen people post even C in here as long as it's a Scheme implementation
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2020-07-22T20:43:48Z aeth: Oh wow my keyboard cuts out for a second every time the lighting strikes. Weird.
2020-07-22T20:46:00Z Riastradh: aeth: ...maybe you should unplug from wall power until the lightning is over?
2020-07-22T20:46:37Z Oxyd: Nah, keeping your computer running is a good way of testing your backups.
2020-07-22T20:53:57Z aeth: Riastradh: It's hooked into a surge protector which should... surge protect. Apparently not.
2020-07-22T20:55:15Z Riastradh: aeth: A surge protector will deal with minor fluctuations in normal power grid activity.  Your surge protector will not stop lightning from wrecking your electronics.
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2020-07-22T21:22:34Z aeth: Riastradh: Moved to my laptop on battery.
2020-07-22T21:23:12Z aeth: It's been a week or two since I ran "git-pull" on this laptop, which I scripted up to "git pull" everything, anyway.
2020-07-22T21:24:05Z aeth: I skipped backups last week, too, since I was distracted by FedEx being a terrible, unreliable company (long story)
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2020-07-22T21:35:44Z aeth: Unrelated, but my monitor looks so off being so bright with redshift on because i'ts technically far from sunset, just in the middle of a thunderstorm
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2020-07-22T22:55:11Z mdhughes: I always tell people if they like emacs they should use a Mac, because text areas support emacs keys. The old Mac arrow keys also work, but are far less convenient.
2020-07-22T22:55:39Z mdhughes: And I hate emacs, but the motion/edit keys are fine.
2020-07-22T22:59:06Z mdhughes: Except ^N ^P ^B ^F are really awful placement, but I mostly use arrows for one-step movement.
2020-07-22T23:01:07Z aeth: mdhughes: OK, maybe it was you who brought it up
2020-07-22T23:01:50Z aeth: Thanks for clarifying. I tried to verify but it's impossible to be specific enough to search for.
2020-07-22T23:02:04Z aeth: Obviously "Emacs" or "readline" is just going to talk about the thing itself, not similar keybindings
2020-07-22T23:15:49Z mdhughes: The only reason readline's a thing at all, and not an OS function in every OS, is because of its shitty license.
2020-07-22T23:16:06Z jcowan: Fortunately, here in NYC the wiring is all underground.  If lightning strikes our above-ground connections to the national grid, we'll have worse problems that some damaged computers.
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2020-07-22T23:48:58Z Riastradh: (the `shitty licence' of readline is not actually an excuse; there is a BSD-licensed implementation of the same API called editline, and somehow it hasn't taken over the world either)
2020-07-22T23:53:11Z jcowan: IIRC the FSF forced editline to remove the compatible API
2020-07-22T23:53:19Z aeth: jcowan: Here, it's all above ground, and I lose power maybe 3-6 times a year, although I don't think I have yet this year. So I guess that's one good thing about 2020
2020-07-22T23:53:30Z aeth: Oh, I think I lost it for like 10 seconds, necessitating setting up my home server again
2020-07-22T23:54:37Z aeth: I just realized that if I had a Schemification of almost the entire Common Lisp API (e.g. still Lisp-1, #f, etc., and a few things that make no sense like FUNCALL removed) that you could use it to "trivially" write an implementation of CL on top of it. So, this "Common Scheme" for Airship Scheme could then be used to base a Shipair Lisp, which itself could run Airship Scheme assuming all of the CL dependencies also worked.
2020-07-22T23:54:58Z Riastradh: jcowan: [citation needed]
2020-07-22T23:55:31Z aeth: A "Shipair Lisp" that reverses Airship Scheme via the "Common Scheme" API would be pointless, of course, for my own personal implementation since it would just be exposing the underlying CL, but anyone else's could use it to port CL or even Airship.
2020-07-22T23:56:32Z aeth: In CL itself, it's all in the COMMON-LISP (nickname CL) package, but the API could easily be 15-20 libraries (and/or SRFIs) going off of http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm
2020-07-22T23:57:16Z aeth: (And on my earlier point, I lost power briefly not today, but maybe a few months ago... This is unusual for around here.)
2020-07-22T23:57:40Z aeth: (Far more usual is 3-6 times a year)
2020-07-22T23:59:11Z Riastradh: jcowan: The FSF has long held either that interfaces are not copyrightable on their own, or that compatible implementations should constitute fair use.  See, e.g., .
2020-07-22T23:59:19Z aeth: (Hmm... Nope, I should've looked up the actual data before speaking. I've lost power, at least briefly, 8 times in 2019, and 3 times in 2020. I think a UPS would've gotten rid of all of the outages in 2020.)
2020-07-23T00:00:03Z aeth: Riastradh: Right, it would be very ironic if FSF argued against clones since that's the main thing that the FSF does, from Emacs to GCC to Java to its two CL implementations + three Scheme implementations to...
2020-07-23T00:00:17Z aeth: Even bash is the "bourne again" shell
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2020-07-23T00:01:00Z aeth: (iirc, they dumped their Java once the mainstream Java had an acceptable license)
2020-07-23T00:01:21Z aeth: GNU even has a Matlab clone, called GNU Octave.
2020-07-23T00:02:51Z jcowan: Apparently I was wrong: the readline-compatibility sublibrary is incomplete and out of date, but not actually removed.
2020-07-23T00:04:11Z aeth: I actually wonder what the *original* GNU projects are. Maybe GIMP? Based on complaints people give even though I have no issues with it, it's nothing like Photoshop.
2020-07-23T00:06:12Z autumn[m]: GNU/Hurd?
2020-07-23T00:06:34Z jcowan: Indeed.
2020-07-23T00:08:33Z jcowan: It also depends on what you mean by "original".  GNU APL and GNU Smalltalk are implementations of the standards, but they are not clones of any other implementations.
2020-07-23T00:09:39Z aeth: And while GNU Emacs was a clone of the original Emacs (the tutorial is near verbatim except for a few bindings changes, but idk if the original Emacs backported the GNU Emacs tutorial), RMS was a maintainer of the original.
2020-07-23T00:10:12Z jcowan: MARST (Algol-60 to C compiler) is certainly not like anything else except other Algol 60 compilers unrelated to it.
2020-07-23T00:11:06Z aeth: And in CL land, CLISP is notable for being fully interpreted (well, bytecode interpreted) rather than compiled.
2020-07-23T00:11:19Z jcowan: Similar remarks apply to CLISP, GCL, MIT Scheme, Kawa, and Guile.
2020-07-23T00:11:45Z jcowan: (and SCM)
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2020-07-23T00:43:19Z mdhughes: There is a more current editline, turns out: https://github.com/troglobit/editline
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2020-07-23T04:32:23Z daviid: mdhughes: why did you use the term 'a shity license?' (for read-line)
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2020-07-23T05:06:06Z aeth: daviid: probably because the whole point of readline is to bully developers into using the GPL
2020-07-23T05:06:18Z aeth: (from that perspective, I mean)
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2020-07-23T05:34:52Z mdhughes: Yep. It's hundreds of lines of possibly-unenforceable legalese that maybe means the FSF can sue you if you link their library in your program and don't give it to them.
2020-07-23T05:35:22Z mdhughes: As opposed to actual open source licenses, where 20 lines of text say "do what thou wilt, don't blame me".
2020-07-23T05:36:27Z zaifir: Well, 20 lines of license plus thousands or millions of lines of international trade law and legal precedent.
2020-07-23T05:38:02Z zaifir: Hence why licenses that literally say "do what thou wilt" are not a good idea.
2020-07-23T05:39:00Z zaifir: Is "CPL" taken?  Crowley Public License.
2020-07-23T05:39:22Z zaifir: I guess he would have approved of WTFPL.
2020-07-23T05:39:23Z mdhughes: Sure, that's why there's just enough legalese in BSD, etc. to probably keep a lawyer from getting bad ideas. We just want to give away stuff we think others can use, and not give away stuff we don't.
2020-07-23T05:41:59Z aeth: I mean you can even see exactly what the legalese is in BSD/MIT/etc.
2020-07-23T05:42:10Z aeth: Because it's in all caps iirc. I know it is for MIT
2020-07-23T05:43:16Z Riastradh: mdhughes apparently hasn't done any homework about (a) any GPL enforcement or (b) the definition of `open source' from, I dunno, say, the Open Source Initiative which was founded in 1998 with the introduction of the term to the world.
2020-07-23T05:43:28Z mdhughes: BSD puts the warranty text in all caps, but the conditions are plain English.
2020-07-23T05:44:17Z aeth: Riastradh: I mean, mdhughes's argument is a valid position of e.g. http://copyfree.org/
2020-07-23T05:44:31Z aeth: Riastradh: Or more generally, the BSD projects like FreeBSD and OpenBSD
2020-07-23T05:45:27Z mdhughes: zaifir: There *is* a Crowley Thelemic License! http://copyfree.org/content/standard/licenses/ctl/license.txt
2020-07-23T05:45:32Z aeth: I love that copyfree site though because it looks like something someone would make in an IRC argument like this to try to win it
2020-07-23T05:45:33Z Riastradh: aeth: I'm not responding to `shitty license', which is a value judgment I disagree with.  I'm responding to `possibly-unenforceable legalese that maybe means the FSF can sue you' and `actual open source licenses...say "do what thou wilt, don't blame me"'.
2020-07-23T05:45:59Z aeth: Riastradh: well, yes, "actual open source licenses" should be replaced by "copyfree licenses"
2020-07-23T05:46:03Z aeth: mdhughes: ^
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2020-07-23T05:46:11Z aeth: Since there's a website with a definition that fits what mdhughes wants to say
2020-07-23T05:46:52Z mdhughes: I don't call things designed as traps or tyranny "open". Personal quirk, I'm sure.
2020-07-23T05:47:48Z aeth: mdhughes: so do you prefer this standard's definitions? http://copyfree.org/standard
2020-07-23T05:49:41Z mdhughes: aeth: Mostly? I'd disagree with advertising clauses disqualifying a license. Scientific sharing requires attribution, software should, too.
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2020-07-23T05:51:42Z mdhughes: And while I'm not generally concerned, there are people who like to restrict use of their software from police, military, nuclear engineering, etc. uses.
2020-07-23T05:53:29Z mdhughes: If I was interested in computer vision, AI, etc., I might have a different attitude and try to do anything to stop cops from using it.
2020-07-23T05:56:34Z aeth: well, restricting certain types of organizations from using it makes it no longer free software and no longer open source
2020-07-23T05:56:43Z aeth: and thus also restricts any attempt to subset FOSS, too
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2020-07-23T06:03:05Z mdhughes: It can still be free to anyone who doesn't kill people for a living.
2020-07-23T06:04:04Z mdhughes: The "free software" definition isn't writ on stone by gods, it's a description people made up for one set of licenses. I think some of those descriptions aren't necessary.
2020-07-23T06:12:08Z aeth: If it's freeware but not FOSS, it doesn't get bundled with FOSS, it gets bundled with freeware, and these days freeware is, well, a lot less trustworthy... so staying orthodox has its advantages
2020-07-23T06:13:04Z aeth: The problem with banning industries is everyone hates different ones, so developers would have to look up what the combination bans
2020-07-23T06:16:19Z mdhughes: Murdering people isn't a thing that should be an industry. Of course the computer industry and Silicon Valley in particular are built on the paychecks of babykillers and literal (mostly sorta ex-) Nazis. So I don't get too involved with those people.
2020-07-23T06:19:59Z Riastradh: A more salient question than `Should something be considered ``free software'' if it has a rule prohibiting you from murdering?' is: `Is copyright law an effective tool for preventing murder?'
2020-07-23T06:20:27Z aeth: There certainly are groups I don't want using my software, but I can't really stop them. The really disreputable ones will use it anyway, too!
2020-07-23T06:21:34Z aeth: Fortunately, there are ways around this without putting it in the license, such as how you promote your software.
2020-07-23T06:21:48Z Riastradh: (it's not written in stone but people have put a lot more thought into it than mdhughes has put into doing homework)
2020-07-23T06:22:18Z mdhughes: You can at least block them by license. Cops tend to break the law whenever they can, but military usually follows the rules pretty well.
2020-07-23T06:23:18Z aeth: They're not murderers (afaik), but FedEx lost an important, expensive package of mine last week... twice! I'd love to ban them from everything I ever do, but there's probably not even a practical way of doing so. (And, no, if I could've picked the shipper, I absolutely wouldn't have picked FedEx.)
2020-07-23T06:23:35Z aeth: And more importantly, building up an enemies list probably wouldn't reflect very well on me.
2020-07-23T06:24:04Z mdhughes: Probably better if you do help FedEx with their software, but in their case it's probably human incompetence.
2020-07-23T06:24:49Z aeth: I mean, the only thing that would fix FedEx at this point is probably fully automated deliveries... and they'd probably still mess up with my address in particular for whatever reason :-p
2020-07-23T06:24:51Z mdhughes: But "not for use in aviation or shipping" would be a reasonable request if you have concerns.
2020-07-23T06:25:36Z aeth: no no... sell the software, but offer it for free to everyone in the shipping sector except for FedEx :-p
2020-07-23T06:26:07Z mdhughes: I could also see not wanting Amazon to use your software and conquer the Solar System any faster.
2020-07-23T06:26:29Z aeth: I mean, see, that's really the only way you can get what you want, conquering Sol
2020-07-23T06:26:54Z aeth: so which license achieves world domination fastest and since it's a winner takes all thing, you'd be my competition :-p
2020-07-23T06:27:07Z mdhughes: Bezos does nothing without purpose, so Blue Origin is clearly part of his Master Plan.
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2020-07-23T06:28:44Z aeth: I mean, I thought he was going small and was just going to be a Bond villain with a volcano lair, but he wants a full Moon base
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2020-07-23T06:48:08Z aeth: More seriously, there is no one right answer for licensing issues, especially when taking ethical considerations into account.
2020-07-23T06:51:48Z aeth: After quite a bit of thought, I choose to optimize for popularity (well, it's the Lisp world, so, "popularity"), but that also means the loss of quite a lot of control... assuming anyone notices it, which is unlikely, even while optimizing for popularity.
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2020-07-23T07:03:12Z aeth: And I don't really have to worry about some big, evil bureaucracy using my software because they'll only use Java or C# or similar languages.
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2020-07-23T07:07:21Z zig: so? what is the license/
2020-07-23T07:07:25Z zig: so? what is the license?
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2020-07-23T07:07:45Z edgar-rft: I think a person who wants to use your stuff for murdering people doesn't care about licenses anyway, a license won't stop them from doing so.
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2020-07-23T07:15:07Z aeth: zig: MIT, but BSD also works. Other licenses are arguably more fitting, like WTFPL or CC0, but their obscurity can actually hurt adoption.
2020-07-23T07:15:22Z aeth: Any additional restriction removes potential users.
2020-07-23T07:15:35Z aeth: Of course, if you're writing a (A)GPL library intentionally, then that's probably precisely your point
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2020-07-23T07:20:22Z zig: Myself, I went with Apache v2, becaue that is what Chez use.
2020-07-23T07:20:42Z zig: I used to prefer CNPL but "popularity" won.
2020-07-23T07:22:59Z zig: CNPL is stronger than AGPL. I have a question for you regarding this. AGPL mention the term "user", do you consider another program a "user"?
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2020-07-23T07:50:10Z aeth: there's probably an FAQ
2020-07-23T07:54:24Z zig: that is the thing, there is no faq, I asked #gnu channel, and someone with some credentials replied "user is a term that is well defined"
2020-07-23T07:55:17Z zig: no faq entry about this subject. That is exactly the Affero GPL hole where it is possible for a AGPL program to be used as a part of bigger system without having to release the code of anything because the "user" is another program.
2020-07-23T07:55:26Z zig: That is exactly the case of database systems.
2020-07-23T07:56:43Z zig: instead CNPL does not mention "user", it simply says something along the line "if a CNPL library or program is part of a bigger library or program everything should be CNPL"
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2020-07-23T11:00:16Z zig: follow up on my project called copernic that aims to replace wikidata with scheme, a few month after rejecting my proposal saying "it is not possible", the very same group announced abstract wikipedia and wikilambda which are not merely engineering project, but full research with no prior success.
2020-07-23T11:00:23Z zig: How fair is that?
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2020-07-23T11:08:59Z zig: sorry off-topic.
2020-07-23T11:09:02Z zig hides.
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2020-07-23T13:25:14Z lockywolf: Are there any "keywords" in scheme other than "syntactic keywords"?
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2020-07-23T13:59:38Z jcowan: lockywolf: Hard to say unless you have a precise definition of "keywords".  The things called "keywords" in CL (basically variables that evaluate to their own names) don't exist in any Scheme standard, though some Schemes support them.
2020-07-23T14:00:46Z lockywolf: understood
2020-07-23T14:02:22Z lockywolf: No, I was asking informally what is usually meant by "keywords" informally and how they differ from "identifiers" informally.
2020-07-23T14:02:55Z lockywolf: I am asking this in a scheme chat because schemers seem to be attentive to such things.
2020-07-23T14:04:00Z lockywolf: So I first skimmed the r7rs standard for a possible well-defined meaning.
2020-07-23T14:04:13Z lockywolf: And found only "syntactic keywords"
2020-07-23T14:04:17Z jcowan: Identifiers have two syntactic roles: as variables (which may or may not vary) and as keywords appearing in special syntax, either at the beginning like cond, or elsewhere like else.
2020-07-23T14:06:17Z jcowan: mdhughes: The objection to the BSD advertising clause is practical.  When there are hundreds or thousands of contributors to a distro, posting a statement saying "Try MyBSD" becomes impractical because you need hundreds or thousands of attributions attached to it.
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2020-07-23T14:41:36Z mdhughes: jcowan: A text file or about box can be as large as you like. 10,000 attributions is maybe 1.2 MB, less than one floppy disk.
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2020-07-23T14:42:39Z mdhughes: Every scientific paper manages to include their attributions. If that's too onerous for someone, maybe free isn't the right price.
2020-07-23T14:42:54Z jcowan: Scientific papers are not ads.
2020-07-23T14:43:05Z mdhughes: Neither is software.
2020-07-23T14:43:46Z jcowan: "ll advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the organization."
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2020-07-23T14:44:11Z jcowan: Also, there is this thing called "print advertising": you may rememeber it.
2020-07-23T14:44:29Z jcowan: s/ll/All
2020-07-23T14:44:52Z mdhughes: 3-clause only requires it with source or binary.
2020-07-23T14:45:21Z mdhughes: And no, I don't remember print advertising, I haven't bought a magazine since the Clinton administration.
2020-07-23T14:48:04Z jcowan: This is precisely why UCB retroactively abolished the advertising clause, though that only affects work with their copyright on it.
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2020-07-23T14:50:20Z jcowan: Still, it has become decidedly unpopular: in practice distros will not accept work with the 4th clause on it, because they consider its restrictions too onerous (en masse, not individually).  Also, there may perhaps be scientific papers with thousands of citations, but I doubt they get published.
2020-07-23T14:53:15Z mdhughes: Thousands is also a massive exaggeration. There's Node weirdos who install thousands of packages and then nothing works (my worst case is… 185, and I only declared 10), but most C projects use maybe 3-4 libraries.
2020-07-23T14:57:48Z mdhughes: (disclosure: I haven't bought a technical magazine since the Clinton administration. I bought some Metal Hammer with cover CDs as late as 2012? But there's no software ads in those, just skull jewelry.)
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2020-07-23T17:43:46Z zaifir: zig: Re: the AGPL "hole", IIRC the FSF specifically states that they don't think there's a licensing solution to the software-as-a-service issue, AKA "the github problem" (95% free software wrapped in a centralized, effectively unportable service).
2020-07-23T17:44:39Z Riastradh: zaifir: States what where?
2020-07-23T17:44:56Z zaifir: Eh, let me see if I can find it.
2020-07-23T17:47:20Z zaifir: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.en.html
2020-07-23T17:47:29Z zaifir: "We don't see any sensible way to address the SaaSS problem with license conditions on particular programs. Even to write a legal condition to distinguish between SaaSS use and non-SaaSS use would be a challenge..."
2020-07-23T17:48:04Z zaifir: "SaaSS" = "Service as a software substitute", apparently.
2020-07-23T17:48:31Z zaifir: Statler, Waldorf^H^H^H^H^ Riastradh: ^^
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2020-07-23T20:34:24Z jcowan: mdhughes: Thousands is not an exaggeration for a whole distro.  Debian has about 51,000 packages (granted, some of them are not free).
2020-07-23T20:35:45Z zig: zaifir: ack'ed.
2020-07-23T20:36:28Z Riastradh: jcowan: MIT Scheme's documentation literally acknowledges `a cast of thousands'!
2020-07-23T20:36:52Z jcowan: That too.
2020-07-23T20:37:07Z Riastradh: (it says `While "a cast of thosands" may be an overstatement...' but never mind that)
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2020-07-23T21:20:56Z aeth: zig: which Scheme?
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2020-07-23T21:22:54Z aeth: lockywolf__: there are three different keywords syntaxes about evenly in use between them. Racket-style #:foo, CL-style :foo, and DSSSL-style foo:
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2020-07-23T21:24:34Z aeth: This SRFI seems to put :foo at 5, foo: at 3, and #:foo at 2, but it's non-exhaustive and it depends on where you draw your line in your survey because the :foo ones are pretty obscure and the #:foo ones are both major. https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-177/srfi-177.html
2020-07-23T21:25:01Z aeth: (Well, 3 of the :foo ones. I've never heard of Sagittarius, STklos, or S7)
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2020-07-23T21:37:24Z jcowan: Crosscutting that, there are two kinds of keywords: CL-type, which evaluate to their names, and Racket-type, which cannot be evaluated but only used in a procedure call unless quoted.
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2020-07-24T10:57:59Z ManDay: Is there no function in r6rs which reverses a pair?!
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2020-07-24T11:06:23Z ManDay: I find the lack of functions for pairs unpleasant...
2020-07-24T11:06:52Z ManDay: min, max, map, reverse, ... all the stuff that works for list, but doesn't work for pairs
2020-07-24T11:09:18Z zig: that is a one liner.
2020-07-24T11:10:08Z ManDay: still... i use pairs so frequently, it litters my code with all these (cdr ...) (car ...) pieces
2020-07-24T11:10:49Z ManDay: i mean a lot of stuff is "a one liner" like you say. that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a function for it
2020-07-24T11:11:07Z ManDay: (or a syntax)
2020-07-24T11:11:14Z zig: The thing is that you can not have every procedure that every users will need in any/every situations
2020-07-24T11:11:52Z ManDay: yeah, that's understandable. I'd be satisfied if we just had all the functions that I (ManDay) need.
2020-07-24T11:12:05Z ManDay: that would be a reasonable choice, i think
2020-07-24T11:12:17Z ManDay: not everyone would be happy, but at least I would be happy
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2020-07-24T11:19:25Z ManDay: and btw, wouldn't map and fold be easily generalizable to pairs, too?
2020-07-24T11:20:05Z ManDay: reverse perhaps not so much, because of empty list at the end...
2020-07-24T11:20:22Z ManDay: hm, nvm, random thoughts
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2020-07-24T13:15:45Z zig: I think there is fold-pair procedure
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2020-07-24T13:51:58Z ManDay: ah yeah
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2020-07-24T13:53:43Z zig: fwiw, I went through that same sentiment "why there is not procedure to do what I want"
2020-07-24T13:54:11Z zig: "What is simple should be easy to do, what is complex should be possible" attributed to Alan kay
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2020-07-24T14:36:09Z foof: rudybot: (eval (possible? 1+2i))
2020-07-24T14:36:13Z rudybot: foof: your sandbox is ready
2020-07-24T14:36:13Z rudybot: foof: error: possible?: undefined;   cannot reference an identifier before its definition    in module: 'program
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2020-07-24T14:39:27Z ManDay: dumb technical question: can't I use the library form without the import-spec? https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/R6RS-Libraries.html
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2020-07-24T14:39:49Z mdhughes: The solution is you write the thing you want, shove it in your ever-expanding prelude, and include that in all programs.
2020-07-24T14:40:17Z ManDay: yes, i'll call it.... r8rs
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2020-07-24T14:41:43Z ManDay: i don't understand how to use (library) :-(
2020-07-24T14:41:57Z ManDay: I had it working with guile modules, but the library form is a mistery to me...
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2020-07-24T14:42:36Z ManDay: Why does https://dpaste.com/FE6QEXU6U not work?
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2020-07-24T14:42:46Z foof: rudybot: that's unpossible
2020-07-24T14:42:47Z rudybot: foof: someone in free software with communication difficulties? that's unpossible
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2020-07-24T14:43:48Z zig: ManDay: maybe add after the (export ...) the thing: (import (rnrs))
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2020-07-24T14:45:24Z ManDay: that works but why?!
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2020-07-24T14:45:44Z zig: you need be explicit about what the library will export
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2020-07-24T14:46:04Z ManDay: i don't understand what you mean
2020-07-24T14:46:06Z zig: s/export/import/
2020-07-24T14:46:19Z zig: Well, otherwise there is nothing in the library env.
2020-07-24T14:46:42Z zig: that's equivalent to (use-modules (rnrs))
2020-07-24T14:47:14Z zig: sorry, guile module have the default guile environment, but libraries have nothing, so you need to import the basics
2020-07-24T14:47:43Z ManDay: ah, i see! thanks!
2020-07-24T14:47:43Z gwatt: ManDay: r6rs libraries require both an export and an import form
2020-07-24T14:48:15Z m455: (gosh sorry people, i was trying to get pidgin going and finally did it lol)
2020-07-24T14:48:24Z m455: (all my annoying disconnects and reconnects)
2020-07-24T14:48:41Z zig: m455: no worries ;)
2020-07-24T14:48:58Z ManDay: so it's true that all the library code has to go inside of the library form?
2020-07-24T14:49:41Z zig: not sure what you mean
2020-07-24T14:49:58Z ecraven: ManDay: no, you can (include "file") in the library
2020-07-24T14:50:14Z m455: (zig: phewf :P. i'm using firejail + pidgin, can't figure out how to open links with a browser because it sandboxes pidgin with the hwole libpurple security issue, but copy and pasting isn't a big deal :P)
2020-07-24T14:50:37Z ManDay: zig: as opposed to (library (lib) (export mycode) (import (rnrs)) (define mycode #f))  <- the library form closes over all
2020-07-24T14:51:08Z ManDay: I get a "no code for module (iterator)" error, that's why I'm asking
2020-07-24T14:51:58Z ManDay: ah nvm, i didn't set the search path correctly
2020-07-24T14:52:04Z ManDay: cryptic error :-/
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2020-07-24T15:45:01Z retropikzel: Is it possible to find out how many arguments procedure takes before calling it?
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2020-07-24T15:46:17Z gwatt: retropikzel: not portable
2020-07-24T15:46:33Z retropikzel: Okay :(
2020-07-24T15:46:36Z ManDay: retropikzel: out of curiousity, why would you want to do that?
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2020-07-24T15:46:46Z ManDay: maybe there is a better solution to your original goal
2020-07-24T15:49:44Z retropikzel: ManDay: I'm "binding" procedures to urls, so if request is made to /example then certain procedure is called, now if /example/hello is called I split the url and pass the hello as argument to the "binded" procedure. This works when procedure takes one argument, but fails if it takes two. I can of course pass anything after /example as a list and make always procedure take one argument, I quess.
2020-07-24T15:50:08Z retropikzel: *make procedure always tkae one argument
2020-07-24T15:50:46Z wasamasa: that doesn't seem like the smartest design
2020-07-24T15:50:57Z wasamasa: what if you want to process query or fragment strings
2020-07-24T15:51:04Z gwatt: retropikzel: are you splitting the path? so if I call /example/hello/world you would call the procedure like (proc "hello" "world") ?
2020-07-24T15:51:12Z retropikzel: qwatt: yes
2020-07-24T15:51:21Z retropikzel: wasamasa: Those are problems for the future me :)
2020-07-24T15:51:35Z wasamasa: better provide a url object and have code dissecting it into path/query/fragment/...
2020-07-24T15:51:55Z wasamasa: then you can use pattern matching on these items
2020-07-24T15:51:57Z retropikzel: Ill just pass them as a list :>
2020-07-24T15:52:32Z wasamasa: for example with match-lambda you can dispatch on number/kinds of arguments
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2020-07-24T15:58:54Z gwatt: Where is match-lambda specified?
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2020-07-24T16:04:13Z zig: +1 wasamasa
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2020-07-24T16:04:38Z zig: match-lambda specification is on-going. There is two srfi.
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2020-07-24T16:45:35Z ManDay: Guile has `identity` in its repl, it's documented here https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Higher_002dOrder-Functions.html#index-identity , but how do I know what I have to import so that I can use it in my code?
2020-07-24T16:45:53Z ManDay: Does r6rs not have it?
2020-07-24T16:46:42Z gwatt: you can use values in r6rs/r7rs
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2020-07-24T16:48:30Z ManDay: Ah cool, good idea! Thanks!
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2020-07-24T21:16:00Z zig: ahah! I have taken a shot at building my dream content-addressable grand scheme plan: https://functional.cafe/system/media_attachments/files/104/570/871/030/193/779/original/fe41c4aac9dda943.png?1595624863
2020-07-24T21:16:01Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/s3XXbCQECv
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2020-07-24T21:17:10Z zig: this demonstrate how to store pairs of a scheme expression in a hashtable with deconstruct! and (reconstruct kb pid) will rebuild the procedure addressed with PID hence the output in the middle
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2020-07-24T21:42:39Z aeth: zig: 0/10 "grand scheme plan" not "grand scheme scheme"
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2020-07-24T21:44:26Z aeth: zig: technically -1/10 but then +1 for using import
2020-07-24T21:45:09Z aeth: zig: but you should really guard your screenshots with -$(date -Iseconds) so you don't accidentally overwrite them
2020-07-24T21:45:36Z aeth: i.e. screenshot-$(date -Iseconds).png
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2020-07-24T22:55:01Z aeth: jcowan: Tentatively I've decided to name all Scheme types ending with ? in Airship Scheme so (1) there are no name collisions when there are semantically different types with the same names in CL and thus no need to prefix something with scheme-foo or come up with a different package etc and (2) so a define-type could exist in Airship that does generate the predicate automatically.
2020-07-24T22:55:19Z aeth: And Scheme types do seem to be... typed based on the predicate.
2020-07-24T22:55:41Z aeth: This would also avoid the need for a types namespace like in CL
2020-07-24T22:55:57Z aeth: so e.g. inexact? exact? string? etc.
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2020-07-24T22:57:02Z aeth: This also means that e.g. the standard (string? foo) and the CL-style (type? foo 'string?) are the same thing.
2020-07-24T22:57:31Z aeth: Guaranteed to be the same since the in-CL define-scheme-type and in-Airship-Scheme define-type will both generate both a type and a predicate.
2020-07-24T22:58:20Z aeth: The type definitions aren't final since there are probably some subtle differences still. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/f67f6969703b63fc6a540b23b1945b82c97826b8/scheme-types.lisp
2020-07-24T23:01:04Z jcowan: aeth: I agree absolutely
2020-07-24T23:01:43Z jcowan: Chibi's generic functions, which I hope will become part of R7-large, work exactly that way.
2020-07-24T23:02:29Z jcowan: General question:  What's the best way to make a macro expand into nothing at all?
2020-07-24T23:06:07Z aeth: I'd personally use (begin) (or (PROGN) in CL) because a more filled version is very frequently used, so it probably shows up already in some expansions when there's no input.
2020-07-24T23:06:17Z aeth: But if you wanted nothing nothing, perhaps (values) makes more semantic sense
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2020-07-25T01:56:47Z gwatt: jcowan: I think (begin) is probably the best. Otherwise the expander needs to handle receiving no values from the expansion.
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2020-07-25T01:56:57Z jcowan: The trouble with (values) is that it's an expression, and therefore can't appear interspersed with definitions.  But (begin) is able in both declaration and expression context.
2020-07-25T01:57:12Z jcowan: at least top-level content
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2020-07-25T17:51:30Z duncanm: Riastradh: hey, are there pre-built binaries for MIT Scheme on ARM64? I'm running Ubuntu, and it doesn't look like there are binary packages
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2020-07-25T17:52:17Z Riastradh: https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mit-scheme/testing.pkg/11.0.90/mit-scheme-11.0.90-aarch64le.tar.gz?
2020-07-25T17:52:33Z Riastradh: You can also cross-compile from x86.
2020-07-25T17:52:49Z Riastradh: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/release.html
2020-07-25T17:53:08Z duncanm: ahh, only for 11.0.90, i see
2020-07-25T17:53:16Z Riastradh: no aarch64 support in <11
2020-07-25T17:53:23Z Riastradh: I only added it recentlyish.
2020-07-25T17:53:36Z Riastradh: (well, 1.5yr ago, but MIT Scheme releases are slow)
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2020-07-25T17:54:30Z duncanm: right
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2020-07-25T17:58:41Z duncanm: Riastradh: there's no configure in the aarch64 tar.gz, how do I install this again?
2020-07-25T17:59:01Z duncanm: i'm looking at what i wrote for Homebrew on the Mac, i thought I could do the same here
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2020-07-25T17:59:51Z zig: duncanm: what arm64 hardware do you have?
2020-07-25T18:00:14Z duncanm: zig: I have a Surface Pro X, so I'm running Ubuntu in WSL2
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2020-07-25T18:00:54Z Riastradh: duncanm: src/configure?
2020-07-25T18:01:05Z duncanm: i could do that
2020-07-25T18:01:18Z Riastradh: (that's where the configure script lives in the x86 version too)
2020-07-25T18:01:34Z duncanm: oh! you're right
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2020-07-25T18:02:23Z duncanm: checking for native-code support... configure: error: unable to determine host architecture
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2020-07-25T18:02:35Z duncanm: duncan@DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:~/Downloads/mit-scheme-11.0.90$ uname -m
2020-07-25T18:02:35Z duncanm: aarch64
2020-07-25T18:02:41Z Riastradh: config.log?
2020-07-25T18:02:54Z Riastradh: (it's possible this has only been tested on NetBSD and macOS, not any Linux)
2020-07-25T18:04:00Z duncanm: gcc: error: unrecognized command line option '-V'
2020-07-25T18:04:00Z duncanm: gcc: fatal error: no input files
2020-07-25T18:04:00Z duncanm: compilation terminated.
2020-07-25T18:04:09Z Riastradh: whole config.log
2020-07-25T18:04:16Z duncanm: let me post it somewhere
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2020-07-25T18:10:00Z duncanm: Riastradh: https://gist.github.com/duncanmak/7781f2154ef2be032a3cd725f8a3e6f8
2020-07-25T18:11:16Z Riastradh: Hm.
2020-07-25T18:12:15Z Riastradh: Try passing --host=aarch64le-unknown-linux-gnu to configure.
2020-07-25T18:13:04Z Riastradh: oh
2020-07-25T18:13:08Z Riastradh: derp
2020-07-25T18:13:13Z duncanm: that didn't work
2020-07-25T18:13:18Z duncanm: duncan@DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:~/Downloads/mit-scheme-11.0.90$ src/configure --host=aarch64le-unknown-linux-gnu
2020-07-25T18:13:18Z duncanm: checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes
2020-07-25T18:13:18Z duncanm: checking build system type... aarch64-unknown-linux-gnu
2020-07-25T18:13:18Z duncanm: checking host system type... Invalid configuration `aarch64le-unknown-linux-gnu': machine `aarch64le-unknown' not recognized
2020-07-25T18:13:18Z duncanm: configure: error: /bin/bash src/microcode/config.sub aarch64le-unknown-linux-gnu failed
2020-07-25T18:13:19Z Riastradh: --enable-native-code=aarch64le
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2020-07-25T18:13:40Z Riastradh: (this is a bug, will fix)
2020-07-25T18:14:29Z duncanm: checking for compiler target... yes, for aarch64le
2020-07-25T18:14:29Z duncanm: checking for an existing MIT/GNU Scheme installation... configure: error:
2020-07-25T18:14:29Z duncanm: This script needs an existing MIT/GNU Scheme installation to function,
2020-07-25T18:14:29Z duncanm: but the following programs do not run it:
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2020-07-25T18:24:05Z Riastradh: Hm.
2020-07-25T18:24:22Z Riastradh: Both of those suggest that src/.native-release-marker is missing.
2020-07-25T18:25:39Z Riastradh: duncanm: Can you extract mit-scheme-11.0.90-aarch64le.tar.gz afresh, and make sure that that file exists and contains a single line saying `aarch64le'?
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2020-07-25T18:33:35Z duncanm: Let me look
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2020-07-25T18:35:29Z duncanm: duncan@DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:~/Downloads$ rm -rf mit-scheme-11.0.90
2020-07-25T18:35:29Z duncanm: duncan@DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:~/Downloads$ ls
2020-07-25T18:35:29Z duncanm: mit-scheme-11.0.90-aarch64le.tar.gz  mit-scheme-11.0.90.tar.gz
2020-07-25T18:35:29Z duncanm: duncan@DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:~/Downloads$ tar xf mit-scheme-11.0.90-aarch64le.tar.gz
2020-07-25T18:35:29Z duncanm: duncan@DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:~/Downloads$ cat mit-scheme-11.0.90/src/.
2020-07-25T18:35:30Z duncanm: ./                      ../                     .native-release-marker
2020-07-25T18:35:30Z duncanm: duncan@DESKTOP-N1A6TD1:~/Downloads$ cat mit-scheme-11.0.90/src/.native-release-marker
2020-07-25T18:35:31Z duncanm: aarch64le
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2020-07-25T18:35:42Z duncanm: so it looks like it's there
2020-07-25T18:35:54Z Riastradh: OK.  Now run `cd mit-scheme-11.0.90/src && ./configure'?
2020-07-25T18:36:31Z duncanm: huh, it seems to be running, maybe i trampled over some files earlier
2020-07-25T18:36:49Z Riastradh: ...or did you do `cd mit-scheme-11.0.90 && ./src/configure'?
2020-07-25T18:36:58Z duncanm: maybe that's what i did
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2020-07-25T19:02:26Z aeth: zig: I said +1 points for using import
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2020-07-25T20:12:39Z zig: nevermind.
2020-07-25T20:15:09Z zig: Do you know what alphabet chinese, japanese and korean use when they code in their native language?
2020-07-25T20:22:08Z Blukunfando: Sounds like something a certain big, windowed corporation would do: to promote the widespread use of identifiers with CJK characters.  Of course, it’s more fun if you do it liberally mixing Unicode with legacy encodings, and making it hard to ensure your fonts have glyphs for all the characters.
2020-07-25T20:22:10Z jcowan: Chinese uses Chinese characters.  Japanese uses a mixture of Chinese characters, the hiragana and katakana syllabaries, and Latin.  Korean uses the Hangeul syllabary (which is systematically constructed) and occasional Chinese characters.
2020-07-25T20:22:55Z jcowan: Actually the corporation in question was Sun, and they did it because Java application programmers in Japan wanted to use native Japanese words as identifiers in their code.
2020-07-25T20:22:56Z Riastradh: jcowan: I think zig was asking about programming, not `code' in the linguistic sense or in the text encoding sense.
2020-07-25T20:23:11Z jcowan: So yes, it depends on the language.
2020-07-25T20:24:17Z jcowan: The Ethiopic XML WG wanted to use Amharic words for elements, attributes, and attribute values in an analogous way (they were not allowed in XML 1.0 before the 5th edition).
2020-07-25T20:25:38Z jcowan: They could of course have used transliterated terms, but reading your own language in transliteration is *hard*; in practice when a language shifts from one script to another (as with the abandonment of Cyrillic in many of the 'Stans), everyone becomes instantly illiterate.
2020-07-25T20:26:12Z zig: My question is related to doing fuzzy string matching, I did not understand yet the algorithm used in lucene, tho I have an algorithm that rely on one hot encoding of bigrams (two letters) it works well for ascii because there is not a lot of letters, but if I consider CJK there a vast amount to "letters" so I am wondering whether my algorithm is applicable to CJK languages
2020-07-25T20:30:12Z zig: If my math are correct it would require at 1GB per word to index it using my algorithm :(
2020-07-25T20:30:40Z zig: to index any word that can encoded in utf8
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2020-07-25T20:48:52Z wasamasa: I guess that's why databases make you select the encoding :D
2020-07-25T20:49:45Z zig: You make me think I will look into postgresql fuzzy string matching
2020-07-25T20:49:55Z zig: you select encoding, but not natural language.
2020-07-25T20:50:19Z zig: fuzzy string matching ~ approximate string matching.
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2020-07-25T21:12:04Z jcowan: A ideogram character should probably be treated as a bigram all by itself.
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2020-07-25T21:59:35Z Blukunfando: Or you can assume it’s going to become mojibake, if it hasn’t already, and treat it as such.
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2020-07-25T22:40:09Z zig: fuzzy search can be implemented as a regular boolean exact match query using the operator OR, say you have "foobar" and issue the query "foobaz", the engine will run a query like (OR "foo" "oob" "oba" "baz") then that boolean query will match the foobar and score it better than "fooqux" because it has more trigram in common.
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2020-07-26T02:05:07Z zig: gener
2020-07-26T02:05:11Z zig: oops :)
2020-07-26T02:05:21Z zig: generic look awesome :)
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2020-07-26T07:46:13Z tatsumaru: Hello guys, I am an entrepreneur and a complete beginner at programming and I want to implement a web SaaS project of mine in a very expressive language like Scheme. I was particularly drawn towards Scheme because I am interested in functional programming and because of the elegance and high expression (and also because a senior developer friend of mine told me that continuations are awesome). I am just curious if Scheme provides good li
2020-07-26T07:46:13Z tatsumaru: braries for back-end web development or if that's not the best language for projects like these?
2020-07-26T07:52:56Z wasamasa: it's the best language if you like to do everything yourself
2020-07-26T07:53:14Z wasamasa: the selection of libraries is nowhere near comparable with actually popular languages
2020-07-26T07:54:33Z wasamasa: perfect for hobbyists, a disaster for break-neck speed business
2020-07-26T07:55:53Z tatsumaru: I see, that answers it, thank you.
2020-07-26T07:57:19Z ecraven: to be fair, some implementations have varying degrees of support libraries
2020-07-26T07:57:43Z ecraven: so depending on your implementation, you might have to implement even networking by yourself, or you might get a ready-made webserver
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2020-07-26T07:58:07Z tatsumaru: If I am looking for a productivity and fast deployment as a business am I better off using something like haskell?
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2020-07-26T07:59:32Z ecraven: will be hard to find developers.. if this is purely about speed, probably php, java or .net
2020-07-26T08:00:24Z autumn[m]: clojure is a thing that capitalism seems to have liked somewhat too
2020-07-26T08:03:19Z tatsumaru: Well I just remember a story about how Paul Graham implemented their project Viaweb in Common Lisp back in the days and were able to always outpace their competition because they were able to implement new features faster because of the high expressiveness of the language.
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2020-07-26T08:04:01Z tatsumaru: I wanted this for my company as well, plus I want to satisfy this inner contrarian in me who doesn't want to leverage unoriginal and status quo technology stacks.
2020-07-26T08:04:35Z wasamasa: consider the tale of the SICP course
2020-07-26T08:04:56Z wasamasa: they eventually switched from scheme to python because programming these days is no longer about understanding it all, but sticking lego someone else made together
2020-07-26T08:06:03Z tatsumaru: It's like cooking lol.
2020-07-26T08:06:31Z ecraven: tatsumaru: it all depends.. if you have a few very good lispers, go that way.. if you need to actually find haskeleers or lispers, they will come much more dearly than php or java people
2020-07-26T08:06:35Z wasamasa: if your domain is the web, pick something else
2020-07-26T08:07:00Z wasamasa: personally, I like doing recreational coding and understanding things in depth
2020-07-26T08:07:11Z wasamasa: but when I don't feel to, I write C/java wrappers
2020-07-26T08:08:00Z wasamasa: another thing to consider for business is how well you know your stack and prefering boring technologies for higher uptime and better operations
2020-07-26T08:08:13Z tatsumaru: ecraven my understanding is that people who learn Lisp most often don't learn it because it's in demand, but because they are passionate about programming, so while they might be much fewer in numbers I also feel like they are cool cats who are much easier to qualify during the HR process.
2020-07-26T08:08:14Z wasamasa: if your boring technology is lisp because you know it very well, then go for it
2020-07-26T08:08:44Z wasamasa: but that's not the case for most programmers
2020-07-26T08:09:10Z ecraven: tatsumaru: yes, but you'll have to pay them much more, and won't be able to find replacements as easily (if at all). don't get me wrong, I love lisp, but as a CEO, I wouldn't want to bet my mortgage on it.
2020-07-26T08:09:22Z ecraven: unless I had the skills myself (which you don't, as you said)
2020-07-26T08:12:21Z wasamasa: another thing to consider is that it's easier to acquire talented personel by training them, so expect teaching them your stack
2020-07-26T08:12:30Z wasamasa: if you can't, good luck with that
2020-07-26T08:13:36Z pinoaffe: tatsumaru: I'd say that whether scheme is suitable depends entirely on the project and the people available
2020-07-26T08:14:09Z wasamasa: clojure/CL are better choices in terms of libraries and programmers due to less fragmentation
2020-07-26T08:14:18Z wasamasa: but still adventurous :D
2020-07-26T08:14:25Z tatsumaru: wasamasa if I go with clojure I also need to learn Java right
2020-07-26T08:14:39Z wasamasa: ITYM if you go with business, you need to know java
2020-07-26T08:14:51Z wasamasa: it's shaping up to be the COBOL of our lifetimes
2020-07-26T08:15:05Z tatsumaru: I thought php was the cobol
2020-07-26T08:15:24Z pinoaffe: but as with any other stack, it's probably not a good idea to use scheme if you don't have someone with a bunch of experience with it to lead development from the very beginning
2020-07-26T08:15:41Z wasamasa: if I compare with how oracle and the php foundation are treating their languages, well...
2020-07-26T08:15:49Z wasamasa: even php isn't nearly as neglected :D
2020-07-26T08:16:06Z tatsumaru: wasamasa why do you think Java is a must for business?
2020-07-26T08:16:19Z wasamasa: you must be joking
2020-07-26T08:16:30Z wasamasa: what do you think makes all these boring applications run?
2020-07-26T08:16:43Z wasamasa: certainly not scheme
2020-07-26T08:16:46Z tatsumaru: well what about python, js and php etc
2020-07-26T08:16:52Z wasamasa: neither python, js, php
2020-07-26T08:17:35Z wasamasa: I can recommend taking a look at the http headers of big websites you visit next time and looking for the telltale signs of java, .net and coldfusion :D
2020-07-26T08:17:47Z wasamasa: urls, too
2020-07-26T08:18:21Z tatsumaru: yeah but for building a new company you don't have to maintain existing java code right you can build in your preferred tech stack?
2020-07-26T08:19:04Z wasamasa: you are likelier to reuse that existing java code than you think
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2020-07-26T08:19:36Z wasamasa: likewise if you want to cooperate with other companies
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2020-07-26T08:20:41Z wasamasa: I test web application security for a living and the majority is enterprise java crap :D
2020-07-26T08:20:52Z wasamasa: followed by .net and php
2020-07-26T08:21:10Z wasamasa: and only then maybe python
2020-07-26T08:23:31Z tatsumaru: that sounds disheartening, I refuse to conform!
2020-07-26T08:23:37Z wasamasa: welcome to the real world
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2020-07-26T08:25:13Z pinoaffe: wasamasa: but just because some big corps use wordpress to track their inventory of literally millions of parts that doesn't mean it's the best option for a new stack :)
2020-07-26T08:26:46Z wasamasa: it's a great option if you want to get it done in two weeks
2020-07-26T08:26:53Z wasamasa: and sold off to some other company
2020-07-26T08:27:41Z tatsumaru: what java?
2020-07-26T08:28:10Z wasamasa: another thing to discover is team work
2020-07-26T08:28:28Z wasamasa: you can split up the work load very well if you have something like java or go where people can't be too creative
2020-07-26T08:29:24Z tatsumaru: you mean lispers will lose a lot of time trying to make stuff more elegant?
2020-07-26T08:29:50Z wasamasa: more like, writing things their way and avoiding to use something written by someone else
2020-07-26T08:30:09Z wasamasa: there's the phenomenon of rather writing your own half-baked solution than teaming up with others to create one good solution for everything
2020-07-26T08:30:21Z wasamasa: so to battle this, you try to have small teams and codebases
2020-07-26T08:30:25Z wasamasa: if you grow beyond that, RIP
2020-07-26T08:30:43Z tatsumaru: is something like Shopify considered a large codebase?
2020-07-26T08:31:35Z wasamasa: we don't really know because we don't see the code
2020-07-26T08:32:41Z tatsumaru: is this individualism thing specific to lispers for some reason?
2020-07-26T08:32:56Z wasamasa: hard to say, but people wrote rants and essays on it
2020-07-26T08:33:08Z wasamasa: the curse of too much freedom and power
2020-07-26T08:33:25Z tatsumaru: it's probably like asking a bunch of painters to collaborate and paint art together
2020-07-26T08:33:28Z wasamasa: personally, ruby is lisp-like enough for me to suffer from similar issues :D
2020-07-26T08:35:23Z wasamasa: a rails app I've worked on had 25k SLOC and was challenging to say the least
2020-07-26T08:36:27Z wasamasa: gitlab has similar figures for the ruby parts
2020-07-26T08:36:52Z wasamasa: for my personal projects I aim at 1k SLOC per project
2020-07-26T08:37:42Z tatsumaru: why do you care about total SLOC
2020-07-26T08:38:01Z tatsumaru: for ease of maintenance?
2020-07-26T08:38:13Z wasamasa: it gives you a rough idea about the overall complexity and how much one needs to keep in their head to make substantial changes
2020-07-26T08:38:28Z wasamasa: the density of code differs per language of course
2020-07-26T08:38:38Z wasamasa: for java I'd expect anywhere from twice to ten times the amount
2020-07-26T08:38:57Z autumn[m]: do you interlock your projects at all?
2020-07-26T08:39:11Z tatsumaru: I've heard haskell can be super dense to the point where it's hard to read other people's code
2020-07-26T08:39:28Z autumn[m]: like, building a new one with the help of one you already built, as a library or whatever
2020-07-26T08:39:36Z wasamasa: I occasionally do that, yes :P
2020-07-26T08:39:48Z wasamasa: for example my emacs packages I use in combination in one emacs instance
2020-07-26T08:40:50Z wasamasa: one time I wrote code for querying xml/html parse trees, then used it in another package for rendering an epub document
2020-07-26T08:41:06Z autumn[m]: oh neat
2020-07-26T08:41:39Z wasamasa: dependencies are helpful up to a certain degree, but I try not overdoing it
2020-07-26T08:42:11Z ecraven: well, one way lies npm's leftpad... on the other side, most schemes ;)
2020-07-26T08:42:15Z wasamasa: because the reliability of my project then depends on other people's work and if it breaks down for some reason I didn't anticipate, I've got work ahead :D
2020-07-26T08:42:36Z autumn[m]: indeed
2020-07-26T08:42:36Z wasamasa: I'm glad the scheme stuff I seen so far isn't nowhere near the insanity of node and rust
2020-07-26T08:42:39Z tatsumaru: yeah but on the other hand you can't build anything big on your own
2020-07-26T08:42:46Z ecraven: tatsumaru: says who?
2020-07-26T08:43:06Z wasamasa: but occasionally the dependency trees pain me: http://salmonella-linux-x86.call-cc.org/master/clang/linux/x86/2020/06/28/salmonella-report/rev-dep-graphs/check-errors.html
2020-07-26T08:43:07Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/PNnCYSc4Pf
2020-07-26T08:43:36Z ecraven: if you want something big, just write it
2020-07-26T08:43:38Z wasamasa: check-errors is someone's utility library so that they don't have to write the same few lines of error checking code over and over again
2020-07-26T08:44:00Z wasamasa: if I want to install the hmac egg, that takes a while to fetch and compile all dependencies
2020-07-26T08:44:16Z tatsumaru: ecraven by the time your finished it will be obsolete or you might die
2020-07-26T08:44:20Z tatsumaru: you are *
2020-07-26T08:44:25Z ecraven: wasamasa: I'm hoping that r7rs-large might alleviate some of that, I hope in some distant future I can just depend on "the implementation" and get many things
2020-07-26T08:44:28Z wasamasa: it's seven, so comparable with what I've seen with clojure and maven depends
2020-07-26T08:44:32Z ecraven: tatsumaru: well, what is "big"?
2020-07-26T08:45:03Z ecraven: I've personally written two or three web stacks, a lot of ffi-bindings to databases, 3d engines, lots of other things..
2020-07-26T08:45:08Z ecraven: sometimes I even got money for it
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2020-07-26T08:45:27Z tatsumaru: let's say you decided to build a spacex alone
2020-07-26T08:45:31Z ecraven: the point is, Scheme makes these things simple, but you still have to do them
2020-07-26T08:45:35Z autumn[m]: now i'm curious whether anyone's ever written a font rendering engine in scheme
2020-07-26T08:45:55Z ecraven: autumn[m]: I've started on writing some ttf/otf code, but haven't gotten very far
2020-07-26T08:46:01Z ecraven: full-on otf rendering is not a small task
2020-07-26T08:46:05Z ecraven: but CL has one, I think
2020-07-26T08:46:17Z tatsumaru: or something like World of Warcraft
2020-07-26T08:46:18Z wasamasa: yeah, CL is what I'd look at for outrageous projects :D
2020-07-26T08:46:42Z ecraven: well, they do have halfway decent PDF libraries, for example ;)
2020-07-26T08:47:02Z ecraven: also something I've played with... if you actually read the specs, many things aren't as hard as they seem to be, for 90% support
2020-07-26T08:47:10Z ecraven: if you want 100%, that's where things get hard
2020-07-26T08:47:14Z wasamasa: yup
2020-07-26T08:47:30Z ecraven: but many times, 90% is just fine
2020-07-26T08:47:32Z wasamasa: my most recent scheme code was turning text with tex commands here and there into something markdown-like
2020-07-26T08:47:57Z ecraven: the joy of parsing :P
2020-07-26T08:48:16Z wasamasa: I at first started writing some elisp-like buffer abstractions to do basic text processing, then a tex parser blissfully unaware of environments and serialized the commands according to a set of rules matching the corpus
2020-07-26T08:48:20Z ecraven: did you investigate redefining the TeX commands to emit markdown instead of whatever they do?
2020-07-26T08:48:26Z wasamasa: nah
2020-07-26T08:48:50Z ecraven: I've done that to some games with lua, that I played around with.. just redefine what things do, then run the original lua code and have it emit whatever ;)
2020-07-26T08:48:54Z wasamasa: I ended up at a bit over 200 SLOC
2020-07-26T08:48:57Z ecraven: nice
2020-07-26T08:49:22Z wasamasa: the overall logic is very similar to implementing MAL's reader
2020-07-26T08:50:01Z wasamasa: tokenize using regex, do some passes over the tokens to take care of tex idiosyncracies, then interpret certain sequences of tokens as commands and groups
2020-07-26T08:50:36Z wasamasa: so the center environment isn't interpreted as centered text, but I don't care
2020-07-26T08:51:13Z wasamasa: the next part of the project would be writing something equivalent for a mail file
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2020-07-26T08:51:41Z wasamasa: so far I've given hato a brief look and it looks more daunting for sure
2020-07-26T08:52:07Z wasamasa: if you ever want to do mail things with scheme, have fun: https://github.com/ashinn/hato
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2020-07-26T09:02:00Z tatsumaru: ecraven why did you say that hiring schemers would cost more than hiring developers from some other more common language? Isn't the demand for schemers lower?
2020-07-26T09:03:59Z wasamasa: there is a much lower supply for them though
2020-07-26T09:04:07Z wasamasa: so that allows them to sell their services well :D
2020-07-26T09:05:20Z tatsumaru: I suppose, plus most of them are probably proficient in other languages too and they don't depend on Scheme for their survival so you need to make them a better offer than they would get for a java job.
2020-07-26T09:07:15Z wasamasa: personally, I didn't have any luck selling elisp services
2020-07-26T09:07:28Z wasamasa: got paid once via paypal for a thing on #emacs and that's it
2020-07-26T09:07:43Z wasamasa: people offered to do donations, but eh
2020-07-26T09:08:18Z tatsumaru: isn't emacs pretty robust already?
2020-07-26T09:09:50Z wasamasa: there's an unending amount of customizations people want to do they don't know how
2020-07-26T09:09:59Z wasamasa: also bugs in packages and new functionality to add
2020-07-26T09:10:10Z wasamasa: but hardly anyone wants to pay for that :D
2020-07-26T09:10:17Z tatsumaru: hmm so how come it didn't work?
2020-07-26T09:10:27Z wasamasa: what I've seen so far is people wanting to donate for someone to tackle the big features
2020-07-26T09:10:48Z tatsumaru: I think you need to talk to companies that rely on emacs rather than individual developers
2020-07-26T09:11:51Z tatsumaru: or in case there are no companies like that you could try a kickstarter project
2020-07-26T09:12:23Z wasamasa: I've had a talk with my previous employer where we agreed on me making a time tracking package on paid time
2020-07-26T09:12:32Z wasamasa: but eh, it's almost only individual developers
2020-07-26T09:12:53Z tatsumaru: i think kickstarter would work pretty well for that case then
2020-07-26T09:13:48Z wasamasa: again, that's for things that are too big for me :D
2020-07-26T09:14:30Z wasamasa: I'd be more interested in a bug squashing platform where people throw money into a pot to fix their pet peeve
2020-07-26T09:14:54Z tatsumaru: so you prefer to fix rather than extend
2020-07-26T09:15:08Z wasamasa: writing features is OK, too
2020-07-26T09:15:31Z wasamasa: but working on something as large as magit or org...
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2020-07-26T09:19:18Z tatsumaru: is that because you enjoy the feeling fo completion and don't want a journey that's too long?
2020-07-26T09:19:29Z tatsumaru: of*
2020-07-26T09:19:55Z wasamasa: I want to understand the whole thing, otherwise I can't make informed choices
2020-07-26T09:20:03Z wasamasa: and achieve completion eventually
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2020-07-26T11:08:01Z zig: There racket and guile that have web server. Sure, it is not python and javascript, but still they seem capable to me.
2020-07-26T11:08:20Z zig: s/capable/somewhat ready for production/
2020-07-26T11:08:39Z zig: indeed if OP does not know how to code and does not have a Scheme lead, it will be difficult.
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2020-07-26T12:18:27Z mdhughes: CHICKEN also has a couple of web servers, and a ton of ready libraries. It's a little unfortunate that the biggest libraries are on slower Schemes.
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2020-07-27T03:59:58Z Guest416: https://static01.imgkr.com/temp/92bea455989242098c3d8a6b14f7a7ff.png
2020-07-27T03:59:58Z Guest416: I am looking for investors for this project
2020-07-27T03:59:59Z Guest416: https://bit.ly/2ZWlliV
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2020-07-27T06:58:59Z mats: this is a joke right
2020-07-27T06:59:14Z wasamasa: that user departed already, so no need to further engage
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2020-07-27T10:53:50Z mats: youre not my real dad
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2020-07-27T15:38:11Z ManDay: I have a problem with guile.
2020-07-27T15:38:51Z ManDay: I modify a .scm (library) file and Guile "randomly" (as in: I haven't figured out the pattern) acts as if I had changed nothing or accounts for the change.
2020-07-27T15:39:11Z ManDay: Is there some caching logic with libraries that I'm unaware of?
2020-07-27T15:42:14Z ManDay: I (equally random) may be disconnected and not even know about it due to my amazingly stable Wifi
2020-07-27T15:43:22Z gwatt: ManDay: libraries are generally loaded a single time. If you want to see changes from the file you probably need to manually (load ...) it
2020-07-27T15:44:13Z ManDay: gwatt: I'm not talking about interactive use. I use `guile some-file-which-INCLUDES-lib`
2020-07-27T15:44:40Z ManDay: (it's a test of the library, thus I go into the internals of the library which means I can't import it)
2020-07-27T15:45:32Z gwatt: I'm not sure then.
2020-07-27T15:46:04Z ManDay: I think I've figured out said pattern though...
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2020-07-27T15:46:31Z ManDay: Every time I modify the parent file which does the include, the library is "reconsidered" by guile
2020-07-27T15:48:29Z ManDay: it's very strange. (include) is probably the last thing I'd have expected that from
2020-07-27T15:48:48Z ManDay: everything in https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Local-Inclusion.html suggests exactly the opposite
2020-07-27T15:49:16Z ManDay: oh, wait
2020-07-27T15:49:21Z ManDay: no, it does say it
2020-07-27T15:49:37Z ManDay: "On the other hand, include does have all the disadvantages of early binding: once the code with the include is compiled, no change to the included file is reflected in the future behavior of the including form."
2020-07-27T15:50:52Z ManDay: suggestions for solutions?
2020-07-27T15:52:44Z ManDay: ah, never rely on manpages... there is "--fresh-auto-compile"
2020-07-27T15:53:20Z gwatt: GNU projects tend to have minimal manpages and want you to use their `info` tool
2020-07-27T15:56:02Z ManDay: yep. hate it.
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2020-07-27T16:35:35Z jcowan: rms decided that man pages were "obsolete" and GNU wasn't gonna have them.
2020-07-27T16:35:53Z m455: gosh lol
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2020-07-27T16:54:03Z zaifir: TeXinfo has hyperlinks, which is certainly nice.
2020-07-27T16:56:27Z m455: zaifir: that's definitely a step up from man pages lol
2020-07-27T16:56:40Z m455: documentation without hyper links is... very unfortunate lol
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2020-07-27T17:13:43Z Riastrad1: man pages have hyperlinks
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2020-07-27T17:22:50Z zaifir: I guess a smart manpage viewer could easily build a link structure from man markup.  But it's usually pre-rendered and passed to a dumb viewer.
2020-07-27T17:23:50Z zaifir: (In b4 escape meta alt control shift...)
2020-07-27T17:25:27Z erkin: Can woman.el do hyperlinks?
2020-07-27T17:25:42Z erkin: It can!
2020-07-27T17:25:48Z erkin: I never noticed before.
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2020-07-27T17:30:49Z zaifir: So manpages don't have hyperlinks; Emacs does.
2020-07-27T17:31:33Z zaifir: With Emacs, one may as well just write a man->texinfo converter and get rid of manpages period.
2020-07-27T17:31:44Z m455: xD
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2020-07-27T17:34:02Z zaifir: But it's nice to have a documentation system that isn't tied to a specific display program.
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2020-07-27T17:39:36Z Riastrad1: zaifir: `html doesn't have hyperlinks; Firefox does'
2020-07-27T17:49:03Z zaifir: Riastrad1: Is that which is god-loved the Good, or is that which is good the God-Loved?
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2020-07-27T17:50:31Z Riastradh: zaifir: that which is good-loved is the evening star
2020-07-27T17:50:53Z zaifir: Riastrad1: By "has hyperlinks", I mean that the markup provides a succinct way to link unrelated documents.  man markup doesn't provide much help in that direction; you'd have to index the various headings yourself.
2020-07-27T17:53:32Z Riastradh: .Xr foo 3
2020-07-27T17:54:15Z Riastradh: .Rs / .%U  / .Re
2020-07-27T17:55:26Z zaifir: True.  I forgot about Xr.
2020-07-27T17:55:33Z zaifir: Um, .Xr.
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2020-07-27T17:58:46Z zaifir: Riastradh: OK, agreed, it's completely plausible to say man has hyperlinks.
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2020-07-27T18:38:31Z erkin: I wonder if one can write a simple man(1) alternative with clickable hyperlinks by extending mouse.zsh
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2020-07-27T19:16:31Z ManDay: Disclaimer: I seem not to get to terms with guile's diagnostic output. That said, can anyone make sense of this, where should I look other than bisecting my entire code? https://dpaste.com/9DD66XCP8
2020-07-27T19:17:21Z ManDay: I really spend too much time struggling with guile's output, to the point where i'm worried it hinders progress on my work
2020-07-27T19:17:49Z wasamasa: that looks completely broken
2020-07-27T19:17:55Z wasamasa: printing a backtrace shouldn't raise another error
2020-07-27T19:18:31Z ManDay: nice
2020-07-27T19:19:09Z ManDay: i'll try to remove the include. that's about the only "unusual" thing in my code
2020-07-27T19:20:00Z ManDay: yeah, that actually helped
2020-07-27T19:20:20Z ManDay: remember kids: don't use include (unless you *do* want to break guile)!
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2020-07-27T19:20:32Z Riastradh: What's the code you were trying to run?
2020-07-27T19:20:36Z wasamasa: what about load?
2020-07-27T19:20:41Z Riastradh: (yes, there is evidently a bug in guile there)
2020-07-27T19:21:51Z ManDay: Riastradh: what do you mean?
2020-07-27T19:22:05Z Riastradh: What is the code you fed into guile which caused that output?
2020-07-27T19:22:14Z ManDay: you want me to paste all 4 files? i can't simply reduce it to a one liner if that's what you're after
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2020-07-27T19:22:56Z ManDay: wasamasa: yeah
2020-07-27T19:23:06Z ManDay: that works, too
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2020-07-27T19:23:18Z ManDay: oops, no
2020-07-27T19:23:30Z ManDay: hold up, i'm just getting an error related to the (load) in that case
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2020-07-27T19:24:14Z wasamasa: it would be nice to get a minimal repro consisting of two files, one doing include/load, the other being included/loaded
2020-07-27T19:25:36Z ManDay: all right, i'll try
2020-07-27T19:25:59Z ManDay: i can't get that load to work though. that's most likely my own incompetence though.
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2020-07-27T19:29:52Z ManDay: i can give you the code in two files, but it runs a handful of recursions before it faults
2020-07-27T19:30:07Z ManDay: i can't make a testcase
2020-07-27T19:30:41Z ManDay: let me first find out what's the actual error that causes that meta-error
2020-07-27T19:30:46Z ManDay: maybe i can strip it down then
2020-07-27T19:34:41Z ManDay: Oh, I'm getting the same thing now without the (include) (using (import) instead)
2020-07-27T19:34:43Z ManDay: that ain't good
2020-07-27T19:42:39Z ManDay: wasamasa: it seems to have nothing to do with includes or imports
2020-07-27T19:42:45Z wasamasa: that's great :D
2020-07-27T19:42:48Z ManDay: I put everything in a single file, still happens
2020-07-27T19:47:04Z ManDay: https://dpaste.com/EBJGBREWY  can't reduce it any further
2020-07-27T19:47:41Z ManDay: (i probably could if I knew where the error comes from, but I hope that will do for you can test)
2020-07-27T19:47:54Z Riastradh: (define (spliced-list->list s) (append (reverse (cdr s)) (car s)))
2020-07-27T19:48:07Z Riastradh: Is (car s) a list?
2020-07-27T19:48:34Z Riastradh: or
2020-07-27T19:48:35Z Riastradh: (define (spliced-list-pass s l) (cons (append l (car s)) (cddr s)))
2020-07-27T19:48:44Z Riastradh: same there
2020-07-27T19:49:17Z Riastradh: Or, does process-edge/adapt-edge always return a list?
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2020-07-27T19:50:43Z wasamasa: from experience, I recommend making records for anything more complicated than a SICP-style data structure
2020-07-27T19:50:53Z wasamasa: that way you get predicate checks for free
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2020-07-27T19:53:02Z ManDay: Riastradh: a spliced list is a pair of two lists ( tail . head )
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2020-07-27T19:53:14Z ManDay: (car s) is thus a list
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2020-07-27T19:54:10Z ManDay: wasamasa: yeah i know, it's not the best style I'm using but this code will never be for any production or so and I'm used to my not using records
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2020-07-27T19:54:44Z ManDay: does anyone of you get a reasonable error with a different scheme perhaps?
2020-07-27T19:55:29Z Riastradh: Why don't you try printing all the arguments you pass to append and see what happens?
2020-07-27T19:56:42Z Riastradh: In process-edge/adapt-edge, is (spliced-list-head sl) always a list, or can it sometimes be +inf.0?
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2020-07-27T19:57:54Z ManDay: spliced-list-head should (permitted the spliced list comes not from a list of lists) not be a list, but only a single element. sorry, the naming is misleading
2020-07-27T19:58:11Z ManDay: spliced-list-head returns the cadr of the spliced list, thus the first element of the head
2020-07-27T19:58:18Z Riastradh: In that case, process-edge/adapt-edge can return an element that is not a list.
2020-07-27T19:58:27Z ManDay: i'm sorry if the code is hard to understand, I did not mean for anyone else to put up with it!
2020-07-27T19:58:43Z ManDay: least of all i would expect you to track down the error!
2020-07-27T19:58:43Z Riastradh: In that case, you sometimes pass an element that is not a list as the second argument to spliced-list-pass on line 133 in the paste.
2020-07-27T19:58:49Z Riastradh: What happens in that case?
2020-07-27T19:59:06Z wasamasa: if I add debug prints to both append calls, it does indeed print +inf
2020-07-27T19:59:14Z wasamasa: this didn't need any bisection or such
2020-07-27T19:59:42Z wasamasa: first append argument is (70 -inf.0), then +inf.0
2020-07-27T20:00:12Z ManDay: looking
2020-07-27T20:02:00Z ManDay: I'm sorry this is taking a different route here...
2020-07-27T20:03:25Z ManDay: oops, i was in my files, not the merged one that you have
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2020-07-27T20:04:46Z ManDay: ok, however, I'm generally more concerned with guile at this point. if this remains as broken as this, then I will spend most of my time searching for trivial bugs like this than coding
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2020-07-27T20:05:11Z ManDay: i mean there is nothing special in that code, not even continuations or something complicated, and yet guile messes it up
2020-07-27T20:05:17Z ManDay: and I have no idea why
2020-07-27T20:05:55Z wasamasa: I find it worrying you'd rather blame guile than your own code
2020-07-27T20:06:05Z ManDay: wasamasa: huh?
2020-07-27T20:06:24Z ManDay: I'm not blaming guile for the fact that I forgot to write (list ...) instead of ...
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2020-07-27T20:06:44Z ManDay: I'm saying that guile produces a cryptic error and throws an execption on a backtrace due to such a simple bug is worrying
2020-07-27T20:07:07Z wasamasa takes a deep breath
2020-07-27T20:07:19Z ManDay: It will not remain the last mistake that I make in my code and if Guile sticks with that habit of giving me totally untraceable error messages, I'll have a hard time working
2020-07-27T20:07:31Z wasamasa: have you followed the execution flow to see why the spliced list is turning into something with +inf?
2020-07-27T20:07:53Z wasamasa: if yes, please ponder where along that execution flow guile would slam the brakes on and yell at you
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2020-07-27T20:08:49Z ManDay: i don't get your point
2020-07-27T20:09:04Z ManDay: are you suggesting the error that guile throws, including the execption on backtrace is to be expected?
2020-07-27T20:09:26Z ManDay: (mentions of vector-ref, no line numbers of my code whatsoever)
2020-07-27T20:09:50Z wasamasa: I'm suggesting that properly written code would throw an error at an earlier point, before bad data makes it in
2020-07-27T20:10:48Z Riastradh: ManDay: yes, guile's stack trace logic has a bug
2020-07-27T20:11:08Z ManDay: i don't mean to be offensive but are you familar with error messages of compilers like Gcc for example wasamasa ?
2020-07-27T20:11:42Z wasamasa throws an unholy amount of C++ template errors at ManDay 
2020-07-27T20:11:48Z ManDay: it sounds to me as if you don't expect anything helpful from a backtrace, error message. or in other words, what you are suggesting is that sufficiently bugged code should make the compiler yield an incomprehensible error
2020-07-27T20:12:03Z wasamasa: no, I'm suggesting you to write code that makes it easy to find your mistakes
2020-07-27T20:12:19Z wasamasa: like by adding assertions to your procedures handling data structures
2020-07-27T20:12:22Z ManDay: wasamasa: i appreciate the sentiment but that's somewhat besides the point here
2020-07-27T20:12:36Z wasamasa: it's crucial if your scheme implementation's error handling sucks :D
2020-07-27T20:13:05Z ManDay: well yes, I take that aways as a lesson
2020-07-27T20:13:23Z ManDay: however, this lack of reliability on the compiler's side is quite a burden to me
2020-07-27T20:13:40Z ManDay: tbh this bug was so simple, i have no idea how guile messed it up
2020-07-27T20:13:53Z ManDay: (and still does)
2020-07-27T20:16:25Z wasamasa: I can only recommend other scheme systems with suboptimal error messages
2020-07-27T20:16:29Z Riastradh: Report a bug?
2020-07-27T20:16:53Z wasamasa: for example CHICKEN shows call traces, interpreted code doesn't have line numbers, compiled code does, sometimes compiled code shows different behavior from interpreted code
2020-07-27T20:17:20Z wasamasa: kawa has java backtraces obviously
2020-07-27T20:18:10Z wasamasa: I haven't worked with others enough to comment on them, last blog post I've read suggested chez also has call traces
2020-07-27T20:18:33Z ManDay: i take a call trace over this bs any time, wasamasa
2020-07-27T20:18:49Z wasamasa: call trace means, it's a linear list of the last functions called
2020-07-27T20:18:53Z ManDay: Riastradh: ill do
2020-07-27T20:18:59Z wasamasa: no hierarchical tree of what led to the erroneous part
2020-07-27T20:19:00Z ManDay: yes i know, still
2020-07-27T20:19:10Z ManDay: it's still better than *this*
2020-07-27T20:19:19Z wasamasa: which usually works the same, unless you have iteration-heavy code :D
2020-07-27T20:19:47Z wasamasa: the evils of CPS conversion
2020-07-27T20:19:54Z ManDay: yes i ve tried to find a bug with chicken in the past. i use iteration heavy code. needless to say i gave up
2020-07-27T20:22:02Z gwatt: wasamasa: chez doesn't really have stacktraces. At the point of an exception, you can see the continuation but not a full stacktrace.
2020-07-27T20:22:24Z wasamasa: I would like to read a more thorough investigation on the subject
2020-07-27T20:23:00Z wasamasa: for example with some real-life portable r5rs/r6rs code and study of the errors you get
2020-07-27T20:23:13Z ManDay: Riastradh: how do you suggest I file a bug? just paste the whole thing?
2020-07-27T20:23:29Z ManDay: i really can't put more work into this, I'm sufficienly pissed at guile already
2020-07-27T20:23:51Z wasamasa: maybe one could take working code and mutation-fuzz it into all kinds of errors :D
2020-07-27T20:24:07Z wasamasa: replace a car with a cdr randomly or something
2020-07-27T20:24:14Z gwatt: wasamasa: https://scheme.com/debug/debug.html
2020-07-27T20:24:29Z wasamasa: point 1.3 is my favorite
2020-07-27T20:24:36Z gwatt: A bit dated, but afaict not much has changed
2020-07-27T20:24:54Z wasamasa: rudybot: men who stare at code
2020-07-27T20:24:55Z rudybot: wasamasa: so apparently Men Who Stare at Goats was not well recieved
2020-07-27T20:25:26Z ManDay: wasamasa: yeah but no
2020-07-27T20:25:28Z Riastradh: ManDay: OK, step #1: take a break and cool off for a moment.  Make a cup of tea and/or take a walk and/or do whatever you need to stop being pissed.
2020-07-27T20:25:48Z ManDay: i'll rather call it a night ;)
2020-07-27T20:25:55Z wasamasa: sure, sleep works as well
2020-07-27T20:26:09Z ManDay: thanks for the (moral) support guys
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2020-07-27T20:27:17Z gwatt: (call/cc inspect) is a creative use of those facilities
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2020-07-27T22:51:56Z mdhughes: I've been a caveman debugger with DLOG statements (logs only if DEBUG is set true) at the top of all functions, for 40 years, and it has never let me down.
2020-07-27T22:53:08Z mdhughes: 1.3 was called "playing computer" in some BASIC book I read young, and that's very effective, but slow.
2020-07-27T22:56:44Z Riastradh: DLOG statements, like `I know x such that g^x = y (mod 2^2048 - 2^1984 - 1 + 2^64 * (floor(2^1918 pi) + 124476))'?
2020-07-27T22:57:17Z mdhughes: It's slightly annoying that in Chez you have to insert breakpoints in your code to use the debugger, rather than gdb/lldb where you can set it on a function or line interactively. But debuggers are less informative than DLOG.
2020-07-27T22:59:30Z zaifir: Broken include?  Jeez.
2020-07-27T22:59:49Z zaifir: Oops, I was scrolled way back.
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2020-07-27T23:21:07Z autumn[m]: DLOG = just logging the arguments you were called with, e.g.?
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2020-07-27T23:28:59Z aeth: mdhughes: I was going to challenge you on the whole fast xor libraries thing considering that my work-in-progress Scheme is probably going to be one of the fastest, if not the fastest, when it is ready.
2020-07-27T23:29:10Z aeth: mdhughes: And then I realized that technically, it would be in last place with libraries :-)
2020-07-27T23:29:46Z mdhughes: Also programs that don't run yet are infinitely slow!
2020-07-27T23:30:24Z aeth: mdhughes: It does run, you just need to write it entirely in the host language using define-scheme-procedure because I haven't finalized my design for the reader yet :-)
2020-07-27T23:30:34Z mdhughes: autumn[m]: (define (DLOG . args) (when DEBUG (apply println args)))
2020-07-27T23:31:04Z mdhughes: A macro version's faster, of course, but I rip 99% of them out of my code before performance matters.
2020-07-27T23:32:24Z aeth: a macro's not necessarily faster if that's inline... assuming the Scheme either (a) can inline that or (b) allows you to declare that as inline
2020-07-27T23:32:51Z aeth: I'm assuming Stalin can do that, idk about the other, more used Schemes :-p
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2020-07-27T23:33:39Z mdhughes: It's also just a single jump & test as a function, so not a big deal as a function except in tight loops.
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2020-07-27T23:51:49Z mdhughes: For more serious work I have a full logger, but that's a fixture for servers & such, not as useful in debugging.
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2020-07-28T06:21:59Z ecraven: ;)
2020-07-28T06:22:17Z ManDay: I'm at a loss with Guile. This broken backtrace thing seems to happen for all errors now
2020-07-28T06:22:42Z ManDay: Every backtrace now causes an exception in Guile. I can't possibly use Guile like that
2020-07-28T06:23:11Z zig: scheme do not have good backtrace
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2020-07-28T06:23:24Z ManDay: zig: yes, but *this* is unacceptable
2020-07-28T06:23:32Z zig: copy / paste the one you have maybe
2020-07-28T06:23:43Z ManDay: read scrollback if you have it, t - 13 hours approx
2020-07-28T06:23:54Z ecraven: ManDay: maybe ask in
2020-07-28T06:23:55Z ManDay: i have no backtrace, there is some bug in guile
2020-07-28T06:23:57Z ecraven: #guile?
2020-07-28T06:24:13Z ManDay: right
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2020-07-28T06:25:57Z ManDay: correction: I think this is some memory corruption issue though (is that possible?). i'm not entirely correct since I do get backtraces if I correct the error about the wrong type being passed in, but with that error, all backtraces break
2020-07-28T06:26:04Z peanutbutterandc: Hey, since we are talking about guile... I have a question too
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2020-07-28T06:26:33Z ManDay: which library do I have to include to have, say, (pk) and (inf?). I find no hint to that in the documentation, and rnrs doesn't seem to have it
2020-07-28T06:27:01Z wasamasa: I'd replace pk with a custom procedure using display/write/newline
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2020-07-28T06:27:05Z wasamasa: and inf?, tough call
2020-07-28T06:27:09Z peanutbutterandc: How does one use (trace-calls-to-procedure)  (from (system vm trace)) in guile? I did (trace-calls-to-procedure procedure) but subsequent call to (procedure arg) returns no trace.
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2020-07-28T06:27:57Z ManDay: wasamasa: how can +inf.0 be available but not inf? ?!
2020-07-28T06:28:06Z lockywolf: Is there something like (timed-flet) in scheme?
2020-07-28T06:28:20Z ManDay: i mean using +inf.0 without any means to check for infinity seems kind of pointless, doesn't it?
2020-07-28T06:28:39Z wasamasa: you could probably write some code to generate +inf, then compare whether a number is about as large as that :P
2020-07-28T06:28:42Z lockywolf: That is something that set!s a variable to some value, waits for X jiffies, and sets it back?
2020-07-28T06:28:43Z wasamasa: emacs does that
2020-07-28T06:29:08Z zig: ManDay: there is inf? but not sure which library has it
2020-07-28T06:29:50Z ManDay: wasamasa: ah, r6rs has "flinfinite?"
2020-07-28T06:30:00Z ManDay: not sure whether that's 100% equivalent
2020-07-28T06:30:04Z wasamasa: hopefully
2020-07-28T06:30:13Z wasamasa: why would you compare against infinity anyway
2020-07-28T06:30:34Z ManDay: but isn't there a way to import the interactive guile forms somehow? I don't need that to be portable, ofc; i'd like it just for pk
2020-07-28T06:30:47Z zig: use (import (guile))
2020-07-28T06:31:06Z ManDay: zig: ah thanks!
2020-07-28T06:31:13Z zig: (import (only (guile) pk)) for just pk
2020-07-28T06:31:56Z ManDay: wasamasa: I suppose in my case I have a workaround, so yes, "why" is a good question
2020-07-28T06:32:58Z peanutbutterandc: Um... may I also be guided regarding the usage of (trace-calls-to-procedure) in guile please? I'm going through 'simply scheme' (the book) and wanted to do some tracing...
2020-07-28T06:33:46Z ManDay: I did compare againt it because +inf and -inf are the two outermost (first and last) elements of a list which presents slices of the real line
2020-07-28T06:34:25Z ManDay: obviously some operations wouldn't make sense for these points, so i checked for inf?, but I can do that by looking at the position in the list, too
2020-07-28T06:34:35Z peanutbutterandc: The book does (trace proc) and the subsequent calls to (proc args) are traced. Guile has ,trace but it produces a huge output. And there is (trace-calls-to-procedure) from (system vm debug) which I was hoping would work like (trace ...) in the book, but it doesn't.
2020-07-28T06:34:40Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Pretty common in numerical code!
2020-07-28T06:35:06Z wasamasa: I'll take your word for it
2020-07-28T06:35:38Z ManDay: unfortunally, (flinfinite?) throws an exception if what I give to it is an integer
2020-07-28T06:35:43Z wasamasa: wut
2020-07-28T06:35:50Z Riastradh: Here's an example: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/arith.scm#n2519
2020-07-28T06:35:50Z wasamasa: oh right, integer you said
2020-07-28T06:35:52Z wasamasa: it's for floats
2020-07-28T06:36:01Z Riastradh: ManDay: flinfinite? is probably limited to floating-point values, hence the `fl'
2020-07-28T06:36:07Z ManDay: yeah, i knew that ugly .0 would catch up with me at some point
2020-07-28T06:36:14Z wasamasa: with-exceptions-untrapped, fun
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2020-07-28T06:36:24Z ManDay: guile has no respect for integer arithmetic
2020-07-28T06:36:28Z ManDay: no integer infinities
2020-07-28T06:36:32Z ManDay: bad guile
2020-07-28T06:36:42Z Riastradh: Integer arithmetic is a waste of circuitry anyway.  Should go floating-point all the way!
2020-07-28T06:37:10Z ManDay: Riastradh: I happen to work with a rare case where integer arithmetic is essential
2020-07-28T06:37:32Z ManDay: e.g. arbitrary precision arithmetic
2020-07-28T06:39:00Z edgar-rft: In the programming world precision is limited by the amount of memory you have available.
2020-07-28T06:39:08Z ManDay: (define (inf? x) (eq? +inf.0 (abs x))) seems to work
2020-07-28T06:39:24Z Riastradh: ManDay: not guaranteed to work
2020-07-28T06:39:32Z ManDay: oh? why not?
2020-07-28T06:39:36Z Riastradh: Quite likely to not work, in fact.
2020-07-28T06:39:47Z zig: to get started replace eq? with =
2020-07-28T06:39:54Z Riastradh: eq? compares object identity, which is a kind of fishy business.
2020-07-28T06:40:09Z Riastradh: In practical terms, many Schemes will store floating-point values on the heap, and represent them by a pointer into the storage.
2020-07-28T06:40:28Z ManDay: ah ok, ok, so = or eqv? then?
2020-07-28T06:40:38Z Riastradh: Two different floating-point operations may result in different heap allocations, but eq? may compare the _pointers_ rather than the values they point to.
2020-07-28T06:41:36Z zaifir: eqv? _should_ work, but = is what you want.
2020-07-28T06:41:46Z zaifir: Still, inexacts.
2020-07-28T06:42:09Z ManDay: can you create an example where it wouldn't work?
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2020-07-28T06:43:01Z Riastradh: (eq? +inf.0 (abs (exp 1000.0)))
2020-07-28T06:43:01Z Riastradh: ;Value: #f
2020-07-28T06:43:11Z zaifir: eq? should probably _never_ be used to compare numbers.
2020-07-28T06:43:13Z Riastradh: (tested on MIT Scheme)
2020-07-28T06:44:01Z wasamasa: yeah, same with guile
2020-07-28T06:44:05Z wasamasa: = does what you'd expect
2020-07-28T06:44:25Z zaifir: Also, R7 provides infinite?.
2020-07-28T06:44:31Z Riastradh: eqv? is appropriate if you want to distinguish numbers by their exactness flag.
2020-07-28T06:44:44Z Riastradh: = is appropriate if you want to distinguish numbers by their value only, irrespective of exactness flag.
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2020-07-28T06:46:05Z zaifir: (As does R6)
2020-07-28T06:46:58Z wasamasa: infinite? works on integers without an error, so that's nice
2020-07-28T06:47:07Z Riastradh: wasamasa: See the comment about underflow and why it is safe to ignore.
2020-07-28T06:51:37Z edgar-rft: IEEE treats everything greater than the greatest representable floating-point number as "infinity". With arbitrary precision integers it's easily possible to compute numbers that are greater than the greatest representable floating-point number but are *not* infinite. That's why using +inf.0 for testing arbitrary precision integers is just simply nonsense.
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2020-07-28T06:57:31Z zaifir: Cantor rolls in his grave every time a really big real gets transmogrified into +inf.0
2020-07-28T06:58:21Z aeth: zaifir: should they be +inf.1 if they're really big?
2020-07-28T07:00:28Z ManDay: edgar-rft: yes, what you say is correct but yet what I do makes sense because I'm just testing an algorithm where I make sure the integers remain below that value
2020-07-28T07:00:48Z ManDay: the actual implementation will neither be in scheme nor use +inf.0
2020-07-28T07:01:43Z aeth: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2008/03/most-positive-bignum/
2020-07-28T07:04:58Z aeth: no guarantees that the concept is portable from TI Lisp Machine Lisp to a modern Scheme implementation
2020-07-28T07:06:47Z aeth: (and, if for some unlikely reason, the actual implementation is in TI Lisp Machine Lisp, then you just lucked out)
2020-07-28T07:09:40Z mdhughes: Computer integers are always below infinity.
2020-07-28T07:10:28Z aeth: More seriously, if you don't have infinite? it's just (and (number? obj) (= +inf.0 (abs obj)))
2020-07-28T07:10:52Z aeth: basically the earlier answer but with (1) = instead of eq for numeric equality and (2) testing for a number first so = doesn't error
2020-07-28T07:10:57Z mdhughes: Maybe you want the equivalent of MAX_INT?
2020-07-28T07:11:13Z mdhughes: (I can't remember the function for that, it's most-something-other)
2020-07-28T07:11:30Z aeth: you could also do (and (number? obj) (inexact? obj) (= +inf.0 (abs obj))) as well since infinite has to be inexact
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2020-07-28T07:13:05Z mdhughes: (least-fixnum) (greatest-fixnum) in R6RS
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2020-07-28T07:21:16Z edgar-rft: we'll only know whether infinity exists at all after an infinite amount of time it is over :-)
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2020-07-28T09:05:47Z zig: +1
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2020-07-28T10:36:12Z jcowan: To get proper infinite? in Guile, just import it from (rnrs base) thus:
2020-07-28T10:36:15Z jcowan: (import (only (rnrs base) infinite?))
2020-07-28T10:36:50Z jcowan: Guile is an R6RS, even though you need to import the (rnrs *) libraries explicitly.
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2020-07-28T11:06:19Z ManDay: If I want to use nested pairs as keys for a hashtable, compared by equal?, how would I do that? Do I have to construct a hashfunction myself?
2020-07-28T11:07:07Z ManDay: the make-hashtable family of forms doesn't seem to use equal? unless I use (make-hashtable) which then requires me to pass a hash function
2020-07-28T11:08:21Z ManDay: is there a well known hash function for pairs binary nested as   (cons X (cons  )  || (cons X (list))   ?
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2020-07-28T12:30:07Z wasamasa: there should be equal-hash or so
2020-07-28T12:30:20Z wasamasa: there's also the option to nest hash-tables
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2020-07-28T12:50:38Z ManDay: too late, i wrote a hash function for my tree
2020-07-28T12:51:00Z ManDay: what do you mean by "there should be equal-hash" though?
2020-07-28T12:53:39Z wasamasa: the srfi requires you to provide string-hash, but suggests to provide extra hash functions
2020-07-28T12:53:41Z wasamasa: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-69/srfi-69.html#strng
2020-07-28T12:53:52Z wasamasa: oh and it provides hash
2020-07-28T12:54:00Z wasamasa: which works in combination with equal?, so there's that
2020-07-28T12:57:13Z ManDay: hrm
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2020-07-28T12:57:53Z ManDay: Is it safe to use (hashtable-ref) right away without checking and I can be sure the form for (default) will not be evaluated?
2020-07-28T12:57:58Z wasamasa: should be similar with r6rs hash-tables
2020-07-28T12:58:03Z ManDay: (otherwise that would be pointless for a cache)
2020-07-28T12:58:48Z wasamasa: default is a plain value
2020-07-28T12:59:00Z wasamasa: it gets evaluated at function call time, like all other arguments
2020-07-28T12:59:15Z wasamasa: it's not like a thunk argument
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2020-07-28T13:03:54Z ManDay: with all this macro magic (like how (and) shortcircuits), I never know :p
2020-07-28T13:03:56Z ManDay: thanks
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2020-07-28T13:41:19Z lisbeths: I have kind of a question which is more of a rant followed by a request for advise.
2020-07-28T13:41:34Z lisbeths: I've been a lisp programmer for maybe 4 years
2020-07-28T13:41:57Z lisbeths: I wanted lisp because I was looking for a system with full syntactic macros which can be a systems language. This is a must.
2020-07-28T13:42:27Z lisbeths: When I first choose lisp I was a huge common lisp fan because SBCL is fast etc.
2020-07-28T13:42:40Z lisbeths: s/choose lisp/chose common lisp/
2020-07-28T13:43:17Z lisbeths: After having played around with writing my own forth for a long time I tend to be more partial towards scheme because it is very minimal compared to sbcl and because certain things about it match up to my coding style more ideologically.
2020-07-28T13:45:26Z lisbeths: I supppose what is vexing me is thinking about the portability of my code: porting it to linux, windows, bsd, webasm, llvm, microcontrollers, etc
2020-07-28T13:45:44Z lisbeths: and what also concerns me is longevity of my code: will future computers not be able to run it, will it run on quantum computers, etc
2020-07-28T13:46:47Z lisbeths: I really have taken a crack at trying to improve lisp by making it concatenative but ultimately anything I tried could be achieved with macros. So now I am realizing that I just need to pick a scheme and be comfortable writing actual code in it. So I am looking for advice. I guess you could call what I was doing "language hopping" in the sense of distro hopping.
2020-07-28T13:50:45Z mdhughes: Most of the mainline ones are portable to Mac, Windows, BSD, Linux; only one I found usable on my RasPi was Gauche.
2020-07-28T13:51:46Z mdhughes: But it largely doesn't matter, 90% of Scheme code is portable, it's the module/import/compile parts and impl-specific libraries that vary.
2020-07-28T13:52:31Z zig: lisbeths: look at chez scheme it is owned by cisco.
2020-07-28T13:52:37Z zig: and is fast.
2020-07-28T13:53:37Z mdhughes: ^ Chez + Thunderchez libraries is my weapon of choice now.
2020-07-28T13:54:02Z zig: it is also the backend compiler of racket.
2020-07-28T13:58:42Z lisbeths: can chez compile to webasm?
2020-07-28T13:58:47Z lisbeths: or asm.js
2020-07-28T14:00:55Z siraben: CHICKEN → C → WASM
2020-07-28T14:01:31Z lisbeths: I prefer chicken
2020-07-28T14:01:44Z lisbeths: lastly, is scheme compatible with purely reversible instruction sets like on a quantum computer?
2020-07-28T14:02:06Z zig: lisbeths: no.
2020-07-28T14:02:17Z zig: lisbeths: re webasm: no.
2020-07-28T14:02:35Z zig: about quantum computer => idk.
2020-07-28T14:05:12Z zig: there is gambit that compiles to wasm via C with emscripten compiler
2020-07-28T14:05:38Z lisbeths: does a gambit mean a subset of the language?
2020-07-28T14:05:53Z lisbeths: or is gambit a scheme compiler
2020-07-28T14:06:23Z zig: scheme compiler to multiple architectures and targets
2020-07-28T14:06:41Z zig: C, Python, Go, Javscript and native assembly
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2020-07-28T14:07:58Z ManDay: lisbeths: what is your concern with quantum computation? you need to write algorithms for quantum computation, you can't just "run a code on a quantum computer"
2020-07-28T14:08:23Z bitwiz: lisbeths: r.e. quantum computer, not sure what you're really asking, but no, because you can square a number or "set!" a variable which is already non-reversible.  But Lisp is used to make a DSL for simulating quantum computers and I don't see why Scheme couldn't do they same (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9vRcSAneiw)
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2020-07-28T14:10:16Z lisbeths: I guess here is my dilema:
2020-07-28T14:10:27Z Riastradh: om nom nom hadamard gates
2020-07-28T14:10:27Z lisbeths: I really do not like most other programming environments. They are clunky.
2020-07-28T14:11:01Z lisbeths: And I would really like to program emacs so I can just write some code in scheme and generate the code I want in that language.
2020-07-28T14:11:19Z lisbeths: Often times a boss will not let you submit machine generated code though, even if you are being accountable that the output is proper and readable.
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2020-07-28T14:12:07Z zig: ?
2020-07-28T14:13:25Z zig: lisbeths: if you want to compile scheme to forth or something I like nanopass compiler.
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2020-07-28T14:14:11Z lisbeths: I mean I can just do it in scheme, I know how to do a compiler. Its just usually obvious when submitting machine generated code to a job.
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2020-07-28T14:17:43Z zig: why do they care ?
2020-07-28T14:17:58Z lisbeths: becuase they will say "this project is written in foo language not scheme"
2020-07-28T14:18:15Z lisbeths: modern computing just depresses me
2020-07-28T14:18:58Z zig: you are not alone ;)
2020-07-28T14:19:30Z lisbeths: I've been an amateur programmer for 8 years and I just don't know what I'm gonna do.
2020-07-28T14:22:27Z zig: hmm
2020-07-28T14:22:35Z zig: bend the knee to sloppy programming :troll:
2020-07-28T14:22:48Z mdhughes: Write your own things, then. Nobody else is going to pay you to do whatever you want, but there's usually some way to make money yourself.
2020-07-28T14:23:06Z lisbeths: I would rather remain a cashier than contribte to a system I do not believe in.
2020-07-28T14:23:20Z lisbeths: And live in a dilapidated trailer in the middle of nowhere.
2020-07-28T14:24:43Z mdhughes: Well, putting up with corp bullshit for a decade or two let me now live halfway up a mountain, and write whatever I want.
2020-07-28T14:25:11Z gnomon: lisbeths, you can do that.  Others have.  I'll suggest that you might be happier if you work on making sure the trailer isn't dilapidated, but otherwise, go for it.  Joey Hess lives in a solar cabin in the woods!
2020-07-28T14:25:50Z gnomon: ("and Joey Hess writes some amazing code, and also seems to be pretty happy these days", I probably should have added there)
2020-07-28T14:26:10Z mdhughes: And even when I was doing the corp bullshit, I wrote my hobby projects however I wanted. The important part is to just write it, not look for perfect tools, perfect systems, immortal code.
2020-07-28T14:27:19Z lisbeths: I look at computer history and I think I see things trending towards analog computers like quantum computers and I see languages trending closer to lisp. I see windows merging with linux and I see immutable package managers like guix taking over, and then lisp being system shell for unix.
2020-07-28T14:27:29Z lisbeths: But I think all this will not happen in my lifetime.
2020-07-28T14:27:53Z lisbeths: It seems obvious to me that a web browser has just become a platform for downloading sandboxed executables.
2020-07-28T14:27:56Z gnomon: ...ye-e-eah, probably not in your lifetime.
2020-07-28T14:29:17Z lisbeths: Moore's law tends to work for more than one hardware component and it is logarithmic. clockspeed, transistor density, core count, memory size, storage size, these all follow that logarithmic growth of optimization. software too follows a logarithmic optimization of efficiency and usability.
2020-07-28T14:29:44Z mdhughes: LISP-likes have been on a big roller coaster ride since the '70s, and if they're a little above sea level now, that's nice but it's not a trend, just random chance.
2020-07-28T14:31:06Z lisbeths: A trend is when a graph of something forms a series of dots that seem like they follow an upards sloped line.
2020-07-28T14:31:22Z lisbeths: random or noncorrelative data is data which is totally scattered
2020-07-28T14:31:36Z lisbeths: we are talking about the sucess of LISP-likes over the passage of time
2020-07-28T14:35:10Z mdhughes: If you look on https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ under Very Long Term History, LISP has gone from #2 to #27 from 1985 to today. They don't capture everything, but it's not arcing[heh] upwards like a rocket.
2020-07-28T14:36:10Z lisbeths: One could argue that this is because business people lost faith in lisp when the stocks for Symbolics crashed and caused the AI winter.
2020-07-28T14:36:27Z lisbeths: I blame business people not the language.
2020-07-28T14:36:36Z mdhughes: But I like Scheme a lot more than other languages, and it's fast enough I can do real work in it, so popularity's not a big driver to me.
2020-07-28T14:37:26Z lisbeths: I guess living by myself in a trailer is not so bad but it is just sad that I would not be able to support a wife.
2020-07-28T14:37:41Z lisbeths: Giving up corproate coding jobs means not reproducing.
2020-07-28T14:38:08Z zig: mdhughes: +1, maybe it is not that bad that lisp and scheme are not popular.
2020-07-28T14:40:19Z wasamasa: CHICKEN doesn't work with emscripten due to alloca
2020-07-28T14:40:25Z wasamasa: but someone made chibi run I've heard :P
2020-07-28T14:42:21Z lisbeths: I dunno I feel that corporations are not really interested in making computers simpler. Their designs are abd. I think corporations make it too easy to get fired for being socially inept or things you do outside of work. As a white male I don't feel wanted there. And I've been banned from almost every irc channel I live. And as someone who smokes marijuana instead of drinking alcohol I would be discriminated against. I wish I had not
2020-07-28T14:42:21Z lisbeths: learned coding. I think what I might do is just go of into a cabin somwhere and give up.
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2020-07-28T14:42:41Z wasamasa: they're interested in getting stuff done on a predictable and team-friendly scale
2020-07-28T14:43:09Z lisbeths: The bane of my existance is the assumption that all programmers should be team players.
2020-07-28T14:43:16Z wasamasa: that requires dumbing things down and reusing other people's efforts to be ahead of competitors
2020-07-28T14:44:00Z lisbeths: I think that people who are less autistic than myself have really ruined certain aspects of computer programming.
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2020-07-28T14:49:02Z lisbeths: Today I finished a programming language with syntactic macros that can fit on the lunar landar. And I realized what the last 8 years of my life has been and that I can't actually make computers better.
2020-07-28T14:51:11Z lisbeths: I am 26 and since I was 5 years old I have spent nearly every waking moment on a computer. My vision is destroyed. My joins are weak like an old person or an astronaut from never moving.
2020-07-28T14:54:33Z lisbeths: I started getting fat so I studied the diets of programmers who are thin like pencils and I have been slowly converting to a pencil.
2020-07-28T14:59:33Z bitwiz: Congratulations on the health boost
2020-07-28T14:59:42Z jcowan: lisbeths: I recommend reading , including the comments.  It gives you lots of contexts for choosing a Scheme, but also makes the point that choosing a Scheme is choosing a tribe (though many of us belong to more than one tribe).
2020-07-28T15:00:08Z lisbeths: lel just chicken or chez it doesnt really matter
2020-07-28T15:00:20Z bitwiz: I suspect you might be aiming for too high a level of "enlightenment" from work.  After all, there's a reason it's called "work"
2020-07-28T15:00:39Z siraben: jcowan:  Is there a tribe for implementing a Scheme that adheres to the R5RS formal semantics? hehe
2020-07-28T15:01:32Z jcowan: Well, except for the argument randomizer (which is acknowledged in the comments to be a kludge), I'd say most Schemes do that.  Of course, the formal semantics aren't close to being complete.
2020-07-28T15:01:54Z lisbeths: I dunno it's just I feel like I am a person who has been thrown away.
2020-07-28T15:02:11Z lisbeths: I don't think it's because I am a bad programmer.
2020-07-28T15:02:20Z lisbeths: so it's just depressing but that's off topic I guess
2020-07-28T15:03:03Z lisbeths: I just think they shouldn't work so hard to convince young autistic kids to code.
2020-07-28T15:03:13Z lisbeths: I wasted my life.
2020-07-28T15:03:40Z gnomon: lisbeths, I mean... it's not my field, but what you're describing sounds to me like the beginnings of low-grade depression.
2020-07-28T15:03:45Z gwatt: At 26 years old you probably shouldn't consider your life over or your time wasted
2020-07-28T15:04:12Z gnomon: gwatt++
2020-07-28T15:04:19Z siraben: jcowan: Indeed, the argument randomizer is a hack.
2020-07-28T15:04:24Z lisbeths: I know unix pretty well and compile linux from scratch, and can code an emacsen, operate a databse, operate javascript libraries, etc. etc.
2020-07-28T15:04:30Z lisbeths: And I guess thats useful.
2020-07-28T15:04:35Z gnomon: It can be.
2020-07-28T15:05:18Z zig: gwatt:++
2020-07-28T15:05:51Z jcowan: Everyone must make their own compromises with Big Tech, or Big Systems in general.  A job is just what you do, not what you *are*.
2020-07-28T15:06:19Z zig: +1
2020-07-28T15:06:56Z jcowan: Googlebook does not own your soul. (Sometimes I think R7RS-large owns mine.)
2020-07-28T15:07:12Z lisbeths: well for example I consider google corporate to be scum. they are working on replacing linux kernel with zircon, and doing lots of other nasty stuff
2020-07-28T15:07:29Z zig: not necessarly nasty :)
2020-07-28T15:07:31Z lisbeths: I do not like apple because their new mac has a chip which wastes silicon to prevent the user from installing linux
2020-07-28T15:07:45Z zig: lisbeths: https://github.com/google/schism
2020-07-28T15:09:03Z lisbeths: If I worked for Microsoft, Amazon, IBM, or Google, I would feel like I was contributing towards something evil. Like i was hurting the world and computing instead of helping it.
2020-07-28T15:10:28Z gnomon: lisbeths, on the one hand that's not wrong; on the other hand, that's not just true of working for any large company, that's true of working in the current system of economic exploitation.  That's a much larger choice than just deigning to accept a paycheque from an employer.
2020-07-28T15:11:00Z lisbeths: no I mean being a doctor is not the same thing as running a casino which ruins peoples lives
2020-07-28T15:11:03Z gnomon: lisbeths, anything you choose to do will have positive and negative impacts, expected and unexpected.  Figuring out which ones you can live with and which ones you can't is a long, ongoing process.
2020-07-28T15:11:58Z Blukunfando: You would feel it because it would be true.
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2020-07-28T15:14:12Z lisbeths: it seems to me programmers are not in control of programs. nonprogrammers are in control of programs.
2020-07-28T15:14:15Z wasamasa: don't worry, you won't magically end up there unless you go out of your way to pass their tests
2020-07-28T15:16:17Z Blukunfando: But it’d surely be much more fun to pass them accidentally.
2020-07-28T15:17:15Z gnomon: lisbeths, try looking at it from a different perspective: programs are a mechanism for expressing a control mechanism, and running programs is a way of performing a (sometimes inaccurately specified, sometimes incomplete) mechanism of control.  Who specifies what is to be controlled, and how, and within what acceptable percentage of failure?  That's a power dynamic.
2020-07-28T15:17:17Z wasamasa: there's some mock piece of  not passing such an interview, despite achieving more than most people there will achieve
2020-07-28T15:23:38Z lisbeths: I guess there's no reason to talk about it here
2020-07-28T15:23:46Z lisbeths: I am going to give up programming
2020-07-28T15:23:57Z lisbeths: maybe I will just start using a smartphone and get rid of my thinkpad
2020-07-28T15:24:02Z lisbeths: buy a playstation
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2020-07-28T15:24:46Z zaifir: :(
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2020-07-28T15:37:20Z zig: :/
2020-07-28T15:37:25Z zig: remins me of ijp somewhat
2020-07-28T15:37:32Z zig: s/remins/reminds/
2020-07-28T15:38:38Z wasamasa: I miss ijp
2020-07-28T15:38:53Z wasamasa: seen two years ago
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2020-07-28T15:56:27Z ManDay: If I want to find the index of something in a list I usually do (- (length l) (length (memq x l))). what's the nicest for alists though?
2020-07-28T15:56:36Z ManDay: (finding the index of a key)
2020-07-28T15:58:30Z zaifir: SRFI 1, list-index
2020-07-28T15:59:25Z zaifir: (list-index (lambda (p) (eqv? (car p) KEY)) alis)
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2020-07-28T16:00:46Z zaifir: ManDay: Also, I'd prefer list-index to the length - length/memq expression, since that will traverse the whole list three times in the worst case, and blows up if memq => #f.
2020-07-28T16:02:32Z ManDay: zaifir: understood, yes
2020-07-28T16:02:39Z ManDay: wilco
2020-07-28T16:04:08Z Riastradh: Use a bounded-balance binary tree which natively supports O(log n) order statistic queries!
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2020-07-28T16:06:42Z zig: Use finger trees \o/
2020-07-28T16:07:07Z zaifir: alists are often just fine.
2020-07-28T16:07:45Z ManDay: zig?
2020-07-28T16:11:25Z zig trying to look smart
2020-07-28T16:12:56Z mdhughes: Also… do you need the index? Or is assoc good enough? If you're building an alist you could just store the index in the cdr list.
2020-07-28T16:18:34Z zaifir: Yeah, usually the index isn't very important.
2020-07-28T16:19:36Z zaifir: And if the index were stored as the cdr of the pair... you wouldn't need the alist.
2020-07-28T16:24:11Z ManDay: hm?
2020-07-28T16:24:46Z ManDay: I need the index for mathematical reasons while creating a hash for a tree which contains nodes which are identified by the keys of the alist
2020-07-28T16:25:02Z mdhughes: You can store more than one thing in cdr list. >(define a '((foo 0 0xf00) (bar 1 0xba4))) >(assoc 'foo a)  (foo 0 \x30;xf00)
2020-07-28T16:25:06Z ManDay: it's not for feeding it back later to obtain the element, if that's what you were thinking
2020-07-28T16:25:45Z ManDay: mdhughes: yes, but it has to be consecutive indices, i won't spell them out
2020-07-28T16:26:08Z ManDay: the keys have to map from 0 through the number of keys, if not that's an error
2020-07-28T16:26:29Z gwatt: yeah, the moment you extend the alist you
2020-07-28T16:26:35Z gwatt: have to patch the indices
2020-07-28T16:26:46Z zaifir: ManDay: Use a sorted structure.
2020-07-28T16:27:00Z ManDay: zaifir: what do you mean?
2020-07-28T16:27:56Z zig: ManDay: e.g. (scheme mapping) aka srfi-146 https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-146/srfi-146.html
2020-07-28T16:28:04Z zaifir: ManDay: Tries.
2020-07-28T16:28:36Z zaifir: ManDay: Instead of storing indices, just read them off the path taken through the structure when looking up the element.
2020-07-28T16:29:12Z ManDay: zaifir: yes, but that's what list-index does for me?
2020-07-28T16:29:27Z ManDay: I'm happy with it
2020-07-28T16:29:29Z zaifir: ManDay: Sure.
2020-07-28T16:30:18Z zaifir: ManDay: With something like list-index you can "store" indices by just maintaining a certain order in the list you search.
2020-07-28T16:30:32Z ManDay: right
2020-07-28T16:30:44Z zaifir: El Cheapo Trie :)
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2020-07-28T16:34:08Z ManDay: I've no idea what you're talking about with your finger trees, your Tries and El Cheapo...
2020-07-28T16:35:12Z zig: (sorry)
2020-07-28T16:35:53Z zig: forget about finger trees, I do not know if they are useful in that situation, I guess no since zaifir has another idea.
2020-07-28T16:37:13Z ManDay: I'm still struggling getting list-index to work, heh
2020-07-28T16:37:36Z ManDay: with guile's error messages, EVERYTHING becomes an adventure
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2020-07-28T16:38:38Z ManDay: somehow, (car (pk element)) throws an error for car receiving the wrong argument, but at the same time nothing is printed to screen by pk
2020-07-28T16:38:49Z ManDay: which is kind of puzzling
2020-07-28T16:44:10Z zaifir: What is pk?
2020-07-28T16:47:27Z ManDay: short for "peek" and it shows what you feed to it on the console while returning its last argument
2020-07-28T16:48:02Z ManDay: normally, that is
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2020-07-28T16:56:33Z zaifir: ManDay: So (define (pk . args) (display args) (last args)) ?
2020-07-28T16:56:45Z ManDay: probably
2020-07-28T16:56:50Z ManDay: it's in guile
2020-07-28T16:56:56Z zaifir: OK.
2020-07-28T16:57:06Z ManDay: and jesus christ I'm ready to jump off a cliff
2020-07-28T16:57:57Z ManDay: list-index (in the precise way that you suggested it) will throw an incomprehensible error about car receiving a procedure instead of a pair when I include the file, but not when I run it directly
2020-07-28T16:58:57Z ManDay: i'm not even kidding
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2020-07-28T16:59:33Z ManDay: guile      will fail and   guile this.scm   works
2020-07-28T16:59:55Z ManDay: this is insane. i hate guile. i hate scheme. i hate everything about this.
2020-07-28T17:02:09Z wasamasa: I wonder, what other r6rs alternatives are there, realistically speaking
2020-07-28T17:02:25Z wasamasa: chez supports only r6rs, gauche and kawa support r6rs among other things
2020-07-28T17:02:52Z ManDay: i have reduced my problem to a testcase with two files in 7 lines, someone please try this madnesss
2020-07-28T17:02:58Z ManDay: I'll paste them:
2020-07-28T17:02:58Z wasamasa: ah, so does sagittarius
2020-07-28T17:03:17Z wasamasa: I've only used the last three in r7rs mode
2020-07-28T17:03:24Z wasamasa: and kawa was the nicest
2020-07-28T17:03:27Z gwatt: ManDay: probably use pastebin or dpaste rather than pasting in IRC
2020-07-28T17:03:35Z ManDay: test.scm https://dpaste.com/E9ELPB8TA     test.ss https://dpaste.com/DRNQMVE4T
2020-07-28T17:03:52Z ManDay: guile --debug --fresh-auto-compile test.scm    <- works
2020-07-28T17:04:01Z ManDay: guile --debug --fresh-auto-compile test.ss    <- gives me that:
2020-07-28T17:04:16Z ManDay: https://dpaste.com/3MX8XZHJU
2020-07-28T17:05:03Z wasamasa: yay, I can reproduce that
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2020-07-28T17:05:07Z ManDay: i hope you can understand my state of mind
2020-07-28T17:05:12Z gwatt: ManDay: for starters, your library is malformed. You have too many parens after the import, closing the library immediately
2020-07-28T17:05:45Z wasamasa: is it like in r7rs where you need to surround it inside a (begin ...) block?
2020-07-28T17:05:50Z ManDay: gwatt: I've been wondering about that, but I've seen examples like that and it works (apart from now with this stuff)
2020-07-28T17:05:59Z zig: ManDay: the parameters I swapped I think to list-index
2020-07-28T17:06:15Z wasamasa: yeah, wrapping it like that resolves the compilation error
2020-07-28T17:06:20Z ManDay: zig: come again (in english)?
2020-07-28T17:06:45Z zig: ManDay: swap the argument to list-index instead of (list-index a b) do (list-index b a)
2020-07-28T17:06:46Z ManDay: wasamasa: so all the code goes in the library block?
2020-07-28T17:07:05Z wasamasa: that's how it is in r7rs and from what I've read they took a great deal of inspiration from r6rs :P
2020-07-28T17:07:11Z ManDay: zig: mind my asking how you come to that conclusion?
2020-07-28T17:07:22Z ManDay: wasamasa: i see
2020-07-28T17:07:26Z wasamasa: valid code inside a library form is one of a handful special forms, like export, import, begin
2020-07-28T17:07:27Z zig: ManDay: I have guile expertise :D
2020-07-28T17:07:50Z ManDay: zig: actually what wasamasa and gwatt pointed at resolves this error
2020-07-28T17:07:57Z ManDay: I think I hate guile even MORE now
2020-07-28T17:08:06Z ManDay: what the f... - just why?
2020-07-28T17:08:11Z wasamasa: lol, if this continues you'll make me look properly into r6rs
2020-07-28T17:08:18Z wasamasa: even though I don't want to
2020-07-28T17:08:40Z gwatt: wasamasa: guile supports r6rs, so you don't need to wrap code in (begin ...)
2020-07-28T17:08:48Z wasamasa: ah, as suspected r6rs doesn't require the begin, only r7rs does
2020-07-28T17:09:07Z zig: yes
2020-07-28T17:09:13Z wasamasa: but it doesn't hurt to use begin anyway
2020-07-28T17:09:16Z ManDay: fwiw, i went with the form where the library form closes early because I didnt want one HUGE open form spanning all the file
2020-07-28T17:09:24Z wasamasa: welcome to scheme module systems
2020-07-28T17:09:38Z wasamasa: why, you prefer CL module systems?
2020-07-28T17:09:42Z ManDay: it's a most warm welcome that guile is giving me
2020-07-28T17:09:52Z wasamasa: yes, this is certainly a funky error :D
2020-07-28T17:10:16Z ManDay: well thanks for pointing it out guys. I'd have been with that still tomorrow if you hadn't told me
2020-07-28T17:11:13Z wasamasa: I mean, IIRC even larceny yells at you that the library form is malformed (even if its malformed code detection is in the wrong)
2020-07-28T17:11:40Z ManDay: I do understand correctly though that no one among you can actually explain *why* that error occurs?
2020-07-28T17:11:44Z wasamasa: and to me larceny is the epitome of research-quality scheme
2020-07-28T17:12:00Z wasamasa: something you'll want to play with and use for benchmarks, but nothing beyond that
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2020-07-28T17:12:25Z ManDay: (and why only now with srfi-1 and list-index)
2020-07-28T17:12:37Z Riastradh: madage: May I suggest that you not lash out with condescension at the people who are offering free support in their spare time for fun?
2020-07-28T17:12:40Z Riastradh: er
2020-07-28T17:12:42Z Riastradh: madage: wrong nick
2020-07-28T17:12:45Z Riastradh: ManDay: May I suggest that you not lash out with condescension at the people who are offering free support in their spare time for fun?
2020-07-28T17:13:00Z Riastradh: madage: (sorry about that, tab completion failure)
2020-07-28T17:13:43Z ManDay: Riastradh: lash out with condescension? What are you talking about?
2020-07-28T17:14:18Z wasamasa: yes, I have no idea why it happens, the error probably originates somewhere deep in guile's guts
2020-07-28T17:14:20Z Riastradh: ManDay: `I do understand correctly though that no one among you can actually explain *why* that error occurs?'
2020-07-28T17:14:26Z gwatt: ManDay: are you using srfi-1 list-index or guile list-index? they're different and it looks like you're expecting to use srfi-1 but the error message implies you're using guile's
2020-07-28T17:14:56Z Riastradh: ManDay: Maybe you didn't mean it with condescension, but that's how it scanned to me.
2020-07-28T17:14:59Z ManDay: Riastradh: i'm not sure why you think that was meant in a bad way? it sure wasn't meant that way?
2020-07-28T17:15:09Z gwatt: srfi-1: (list-index pred list . list*); guile: (list-index list obj)
2020-07-28T17:15:09Z ManDay: no i most certainly did not
2020-07-28T17:15:56Z zig: hey hey I managed to read the error after all :)
2020-07-28T17:15:57Z ManDay: gwatt: ah! that might be the relation to the library form!
2020-07-28T17:16:16Z ManDay: nice! it all makes sense now. in a weird, guile'ish way...
2020-07-28T17:17:08Z zig: ManDay: why are you using guile if it does not work the way you like?
2020-07-28T17:18:04Z ManDay: zig: I'd be more than happy to test an eligible alternative (permitted its FOSS and doesn't require hundreds of megabytes of dependencies)
2020-07-28T17:18:10Z ManDay: what do you use?
2020-07-28T17:18:23Z zig: chez.
2020-07-28T17:18:56Z ManDay: is that foss? it doesn't show up in portage
2020-07-28T17:18:59Z zig: that being said the problem with traceback is common in scheme afaiu, I rely mostly on pk to debug.
2020-07-28T17:19:23Z zig: yes it is foss
2020-07-28T17:19:25Z gwatt: ManDay: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme
2020-07-28T17:19:35Z ManDay: hm, weird it's not in gentoo
2020-07-28T17:20:09Z zig: nop it is not in gentoo.
2020-07-28T17:20:25Z zig: ManDay: do git clone --depth=1 because the repo is very big.
2020-07-28T17:20:26Z wasamasa: they have gauche and kawa
2020-07-28T17:20:53Z wasamasa: gauche is something I should properly test due to their built-in libraries
2020-07-28T17:21:08Z wasamasa: kawa depends on java which you most likely have already
2020-07-28T17:21:41Z wasamasa: and you could pretend racket to be a r6rs descendent :P
2020-07-28T17:22:18Z gwatt: you can certainly use r6rs mode in racket
2020-07-28T17:22:40Z wasamasa: that way you'd get the best scheme docs
2020-07-28T17:22:42Z ManDay: wasamasa: no, i don't have a java :-p
2020-07-28T17:22:46Z wasamasa: shocking
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2020-07-28T17:28:11Z rgherdt: gwatt: but then you can't use any srfi from the srfi package, right?
2020-07-28T17:28:54Z gwatt: rgherdt: I think you can, but I've never tried. I've mostly just used racket for its sicp mode
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2020-07-28T17:30:09Z rgherdt: I've just tried it, including srfi/1 at least doesn't work
2020-07-28T17:30:19Z wasamasa: perhaps there's some dance to do
2020-07-28T17:31:04Z wasamasa: I remember figuring out something for lang r5rs to use other package code
2020-07-28T17:31:08Z wasamasa: https://docs.racket-lang.org/r5rs/r5rs-mod.html#%28part._.Non-.R5.R.S_.Bindings_from_r5rs%29
2020-07-28T17:32:02Z wasamasa: and yes: https://docs.racket-lang.org/r6rs/libpaths.html?q=r6rs
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2020-07-28T17:33:17Z ManDay: rgherdt: I have no trouble with that
2020-07-28T17:33:45Z ManDay: I'm not entirely sure of the logic in guile, but normally within a library (despite my closing the library form early) you don't have anything
2020-07-28T17:33:48Z rgherdt: wasamasa: thanks, good to know
2020-07-28T17:34:10Z ManDay: so *normally*  guile's definition don't shadow rnrs, if you import rnrs
2020-07-28T17:34:22Z wasamasa: now, I've got to admit to be too dumb to figure out the equivalent for lang r7rs and how to load up a local library
2020-07-28T17:34:38Z wasamasa: and nobody on #racket could be arsed to figure it out either, so I never tested its r7rs support
2020-07-28T17:35:10Z ManDay: i think the problem here is that that *included* the file, which causes guile's definition to be present
2020-07-28T17:35:50Z rgherdt: regarding r7rs, I kind of gave up when I saw that mutable pairs from r7rs don't play well with other racket code
2020-07-28T17:37:00Z rgherdt: there was an interesting discussion here: https://github.com/lexi-lambda/racket-r7rs/issues/3
2020-07-28T17:37:35Z wasamasa: ouch
2020-07-28T17:38:13Z rgherdt: I have no idea how this is solved for r5rs/r6rs though, will take a look at the documentation you linked
2020-07-28T17:38:58Z wasamasa: that's just about how to import libraries, not whether you can actually use them
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2020-07-28T17:39:49Z rgherdt: I see
2020-07-28T17:40:17Z wasamasa: hm, what happened to rain1
2020-07-28T17:40:42Z wasamasa: still alive on mastodon, but didn't see them in here for some time: https://mastodon.social/@rain1
2020-07-28T17:40:56Z wasamasa: rudybot: seen rain1
2020-07-28T17:40:57Z rudybot: wasamasa: rain1 was seen in #scheme six weeks ago, saying "https://notebooks.gesis.org/binder/jupyter/user/calysto-calysto_scheme-o4vaj2pl/notebooks/notebooks/Reference%20Guide%20for%20Calysto%20Scheme.ipynb", and then rain1 was seen quitting six weeks ago, saying "Quit: Leaving"
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2020-07-28T17:47:47Z ManDay: https://dpaste.com/EGA6BCMTY What am I doing wrong here? According to the documentation, the hashtable functions should take a key which is then passed through the hash function, but the error suggests the hashtable tries to compare the keys directly without using the hash function?
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2020-07-28T17:50:12Z wasamasa: both are needed
2020-07-28T17:50:44Z wasamasa: for example if you use a bucket design, you use the hash function to narrow down to the bucket and the equality function to find the item in the bucket
2020-07-28T17:52:08Z ManDay: I don't understand. my hash function takes a "key" and turns it into a unique integer (I spent quite some time writing that). where do I further parametrize the hashtable to behave like a "bucket"?
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2020-07-28T17:53:17Z wasamasa: that's an implementation detail
2020-07-28T17:53:28Z wasamasa: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_table#/media/File:Hash_table_5_0_1_1_1_1_1_LL.svg for a visualization of the concept
2020-07-28T17:53:38Z ManDay: oh sure, okay. but what is the problem in my case?
2020-07-28T17:53:59Z Riastradh: ManDay: What happens if you evaluate (= 'uvwe 'abcde)?
2020-07-28T17:54:52Z ManDay: That error, Riastradh
2020-07-28T17:55:06Z Riastradh: How do you expect hashtable-contains? to recognize that the stored key, 'uvwe, is not the same as the queried key, 'abcde, without evaluating (= 'uvwe 'abcde) according to the equality predicate you passed?
2020-07-28T17:55:37Z wasamasa: for symbols eq? is the thing to use
2020-07-28T17:55:53Z ManDay: Riastradh: That's the part I don't understand. I thought (hashtable-contains?) pipes the "key" through the "hashfunction" which I provided and then it compares the resulting hashes.
2020-07-28T17:56:10Z wasamasa: both hash function and equality procedure must match
2020-07-28T17:56:12Z Riastradh: ManDay: It uses the hash to _narrow down_ the set of keys that it must compare.
2020-07-28T17:56:32Z ManDay: Ah, now I understand! Sorry, that was slow on my part
2020-07-28T17:56:35Z ManDay: yes, I see
2020-07-28T17:56:44Z ManDay: So my fancy hash function didn't even have to be unique
2020-07-28T17:56:51Z Riastradh: Correct.
2020-07-28T17:57:04Z wasamasa: it will perform better if it outputs equally distributed bucket values
2020-07-28T17:57:20Z Riastradh: It only requires that (= ( x) ( y)) implies ( x y).
2020-07-28T17:57:32Z Riastradh: (here  is your hash function, and  is your key equality predicate)
2020-07-28T17:58:07Z Riastradh: I.e., two keys that are equivalent cannot have distinct hash values.  But it is acceptable for all keys to have the same hash value, as far as the semantics is concerned; of course, you won't get any benefit out of hashing that way.
2020-07-28T17:58:43Z Riastradh: It is best to choose the hash function uniformly at random from all possible functions on your space of keys, but that's usually a little hard to arrange.
2020-07-28T17:58:56Z ManDay: lol, yeah
2020-07-28T17:59:13Z ManDay: theory and practice...
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2020-07-28T18:00:42Z Riastradh: For a small space of keys you can make a perfect hash function, which is a neat little circuit that uses only arithmetic on the digits of the key to map each key into a unique small integer.  But the cost to compute such a circuit -- that is, to find the circuit given the set of keys, not to compute the output of the circuit given one key -- is exponential in the size of the key space.
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2020-07-28T18:05:19Z wasamasa: > Hashtables are allowed to cache the results of calling the hash function and equivalence function, so programs cannot rely on the hash function being called for every lookup or update.  Furthermore any hashtable operation may call the hash function more than once.
2020-07-28T18:05:39Z wasamasa: I guess using mutable objects as keys is not such a good idea after all
2020-07-28T18:06:27Z Riastradh: ...yeah, using objects whose hashes might change as keys in a hash table is a no-no.
2020-07-28T18:12:52Z gwatt: python will actually refuse to let you use mutable objects as keys.
2020-07-28T18:13:28Z madage: Riastradh: np, shit happens :)
2020-07-28T18:13:57Z madage: but for a moment I was oh gosh I've offended the old sages
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2020-07-28T19:22:24Z zig: git bisect for the win
2020-07-28T19:22:51Z gnomon: man oh gosh is git bisect ever a magical feature.
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2020-07-28T19:56:01Z zig: what happened to generators that can be closed?
2020-07-28T19:56:49Z jcowan: An R6RS library is an export clause followed by an import clause followed by arbitrary expressions and definitions.  This means that no new kinds of clauses can be added.
2020-07-28T19:57:12Z jcowan: An R7RS library is entirely made of clauses: export, import, begin, include, etc.
2020-07-28T19:57:17Z jcowan: THis is extensible.
2020-07-28T20:03:13Z aeth: jcowan: How do you handle unrecognized clauses, though?
2020-07-28T20:03:33Z aeth: Are they nestable inside cond-expand?
2020-07-28T20:04:21Z jcowan: Yes, cond-expand in a define-library wraps clauses rather than expressions.
2020-07-28T20:04:53Z aeth: CL, like C, would simply make it so the other implementations can't even read it, although that probably hurts introspection if e.g. you wrote your IDE in the same language and wanted to use the regular reader.
2020-07-28T20:04:59Z jcowan: Unknown clauses produce unspecified results, as does falling off the end of a cond-expand with no else-clause.
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2020-07-28T20:05:11Z jcowan: (In hindsight doing nothing might have been better.)
2020-07-28T20:06:18Z jcowan: Separating clauses from declarations-and-expressions means that a new clause type can't be confused with a user-written declaration macro.
2020-07-28T20:10:05Z gwatt: I feel like that's a distinction without a difference.
2020-07-28T20:11:44Z gwatt: Yes, in R6RS you are limited to export and import and any other code is scheme code.
2020-07-28T20:12:26Z gwatt: But there's nothing special about the rest of the R7RS clauses. include is pretty trivial to implement if you can break hygiene.
2020-07-28T20:13:06Z gwatt: begin is just begin, and the same wih cond-expand.
2020-07-28T20:16:31Z jcowan: But R7RS-small cannot break hygiene.  When I want a SRFI to work on R6RS, I ship it with a trivial "include" library.  But if you wanted to put compiler directives into a library (types, optimizations, etc.) macros would not do it.  It's future-proofing.
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2020-07-28T21:04:18Z terpri_: jcowan, that sounds a bit like scheme48's module system, based on sml modules, which i liked very much when s48 was my go-to scheme. any direct connection to that design, or just coincidental similarity?
2020-07-28T21:04:21Z terpri_: http://www.s48.org/1.9.2/manual/manual-Z-H-5.html#node_chap_4
2020-07-28T21:04:58Z terpri_: (i wonder if recent research on ml-style modules, like 1ml, has any applicability to scheme...)
2020-07-28T21:05:30Z terpri_: (1ml: https://people.mpi-sws.org/~rossberg/1ml/)
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2020-07-29T05:21:52Z ManDay: As far as the (library) form and the question whether it should *contain* the code of the library or close before it is concerned: If in Guile you have the library form contain all the code it is still going to consume the code following it as part of the library. Despite the fact that somehow Guile's symbols like (list-index) are then shadowing those *outside* of the library-form but not those
2020-07-29T05:21:53Z ManDay: inside of it. Consequence: If you (include) a library file into some code, that code becomes unusable.
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2020-07-29T05:25:59Z ManDay: That is, if you're trying to use symbols from that code lateron, because you can't access them
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2020-07-29T05:37:10Z wasamasa: yes, that's why if you include code, you typically do it from the library definition
2020-07-29T05:37:22Z wasamasa: that way it works in library-aware scheme systems and unaware ones
2020-07-29T05:54:15Z zig: there is somekind of bug in termbox library, one can not use default colors and true color at the same time because those two modes are exclusive, unlike the underlying protocol.
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2020-07-29T06:25:24Z wasamasa: you just rediscovered leaky abstractions
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2020-07-29T08:43:11Z ManDay: wasamasa: every time you say we discovered something, it seems to be something bad. can't we discover something surprisingly good for a change? :-D
2020-07-29T08:45:07Z wasamasa: having fun is defined by being good at something
2020-07-29T08:45:25Z wasamasa: I'd be worried about enjoying pains
2020-07-29T08:47:43Z tdammers: I don't think that's the definition of "fun"
2020-07-29T08:47:59Z wasamasa: or was it happiness
2020-07-29T08:48:05Z tdammers: I'm very good at programming in PHP, but I don't enjoy it for a bit, nor does it make me happy
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2020-07-29T08:48:26Z lockywolf: why is syntax not first-class in scheme?
2020-07-29T08:49:38Z tdammers: I do enjoy running, even though I'm not very good at it, and it's often uncomfortable, and sometimes painful
2020-07-29T08:50:17Z wasamasa: that's just what you keep telling yourself to keep doing it :P
2020-07-29T08:52:33Z tdammers: sometimes, yes
2020-07-29T08:52:51Z ManDay: wasamasa: wut
2020-07-29T08:53:19Z tdammers: but the reason I do it is because it does stuff to the brain, and that stuff is worth suffering for a bit
2020-07-29T08:53:35Z ManDay: i hope your definitions in code are not as broken as that one you just made up
2020-07-29T08:54:08Z tdammers: it's actually the same with programming - it often sucks, but when it doesn't it makes me happy, at least sometimes, and those times are worth suffering for
2020-07-29T08:54:39Z ManDay: personally, i love programming as much as math (when it's not just apework), but i hate staring on screens
2020-07-29T08:54:50Z ManDay: *at
2020-07-29T08:55:12Z ManDay: and guile
2020-07-29T08:55:15Z ManDay: i hate guile
2020-07-29T08:55:19Z ManDay: but that's another story
2020-07-29T08:56:03Z wasamasa: anyway, what I meant to convey is once writing any kind of lisp becomes effortless to you, that's when you can discover good things
2020-07-29T08:56:21Z wasamasa: because you'd otherwise be too occupied with something else, like worrying about what traps guile set up for you this time
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2020-07-29T08:58:39Z ManDay: i don't think it's a question of "effortless" in scheme. I'm equally effortless in scheme as in other languages, but that doesn't stop me from making errors. and the instant I make even a tiny error, guile jumps out of its hole to stab me in the back
2020-07-29T08:59:56Z wasamasa looks for the doctor.el
2020-07-29T09:00:17Z ManDay: speaking of weird errors...
2020-07-29T09:00:22Z wasamasa: Is it because that does not stop you from making errors and the instant you make even a tiny error guile jumps out of its hole to stab you in the back that you came to me?
2020-07-29T09:00:43Z ManDay: wasamasa: ha what?
2020-07-29T09:00:50Z ManDay: I came to you?
2020-07-29T09:01:23Z wasamasa: that's doctor.el speaking
2020-07-29T09:03:13Z mdhughes: lockywolf: Consider the alternative: (define foo (if (= (random 2) 0) list or))  Now you don't know if foo will evaluate all args, or just one.
2020-07-29T09:04:03Z lockywolf: mdhughes, define creates functions, not special forms
2020-07-29T09:04:18Z mdhughes: define binds objects to names.
2020-07-29T09:04:33Z lockywolf: runtime objects
2020-07-29T09:05:02Z lockywolf: em...
2020-07-29T09:05:17Z lockywolf: ok, I don't know
2020-07-29T09:05:22Z lockywolf: but why does it matter?
2020-07-29T09:06:23Z lockywolf: When I evaluate (foo bar), where's the difference?
2020-07-29T09:06:31Z mdhughes: It can be a lot worse than or merely not evaluating args after the first true. foo as define is weird. define-macro is weirdest.
2020-07-29T09:06:59Z lockywolf: we evaluate foo first, and that's when we know the value of foo we either evaluate the arguments... or not
2020-07-29T09:07:33Z lockywolf: (define foo (if (= (random 2) 0) define define-macro)?
2020-07-29T09:07:53Z mdhughes: Right. What happens when you try to run that?
2020-07-29T09:08:24Z lockywolf: well, foo will get either one of the syntactic objects
2020-07-29T09:08:43Z lockywolf: what's wrong with that?
2020-07-29T09:11:17Z lockywolf: it will be kinda slower, because it would not be possible to expand macros in compile-time
2020-07-29T09:11:42Z mdhughes: I mean what happens when you type (foo somestuff...) — can you even do a syntax error at runtime?
2020-07-29T09:12:00Z lockywolf: well, you would have to
2020-07-29T09:12:16Z lockywolf: implement runtime syntax error
2020-07-29T09:12:21Z lockywolf: handling
2020-07-29T09:12:55Z mdhughes: Yes, but it's meaningless. Half your program exists before the macro is defined, half after. Half your program has a define binding, half doesn't.
2020-07-29T09:13:11Z lockywolf: And maybe even syntactic exceptions.
2020-07-29T09:14:02Z lockywolf: well, we are not re-defining (define), merely adding a synonym
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2020-07-29T09:15:56Z mdhughes: But Scheme doesn't know that, it's probably not tracking every possible use of a function, it just looks in the environment at runtime.
2020-07-29T09:17:03Z lockywolf: I still fail to see a serious problem with it. Why would it need to know? For optimization?
2020-07-29T09:17:58Z lockywolf: most syntactic special forms can be written in scheme itself
2020-07-29T09:18:21Z lockywolf: so may be called at runtime, just with some arguments unevaluated
2020-07-29T09:18:42Z zig: what would be the difference between syntax and procedure?
2020-07-29T09:18:50Z zig: if both are first class.
2020-07-29T09:19:02Z lockywolf: No difference.
2020-07-29T09:19:56Z lockywolf: Well, in terms of evaluation, some would evaluate all arguments, some just some of them.
2020-07-29T09:20:00Z zig: I am not a macro expert, I think the point is that syntax is evaled at compile time
2020-07-29T09:20:32Z lockywolf: well, if the interpreter is using (analyze), yes
2020-07-29T09:21:14Z zig: a similar question is: is it possible to pass a syntax procedure to another syntax procedure.
2020-07-29T09:21:24Z zig: s/procedure/transformer/
2020-07-29T09:21:39Z lockywolf: hm.. I guess
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2020-07-29T09:22:38Z zig: It seems to me `define-syntax` declares that the associated procedure is a syntax transformer and that it should be eval'ed at expand / compile time or something unlike regular `define`
2020-07-29T09:25:48Z mdhughes: Right. import and such are in the wrong phase, too. Having one suddenly appear mid-execution or non-deterministically makes it hard/impossible to compile.
2020-07-29T09:26:13Z lockywolf: that is true
2020-07-29T09:27:30Z mdhughes: Note: Python lets you do import and almost anything else in any scope. You still can't foo=import, but import in a function is doable and limited in scope. Which works fine since Python's all dynamic shove-things-in-dicts interpreter.
2020-07-29T09:29:21Z tdammers: it also leads to a situation where whether something is in scope or not may depend on whether a particular code path has run or not
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2020-07-29T09:52:11Z zig: :/
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2020-07-29T09:55:43Z ManDay: :\
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2020-07-29T10:25:15Z mdhughes: ^_o
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2020-07-29T10:32:19Z autumn[m]: }:
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2020-07-29T13:13:13Z zig: rudybot: shall we continue yesterday's conversation questioning whether infinity is a number?
2020-07-29T13:13:27Z rudybot: zig: I'm questioning myself that question
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2020-07-29T14:01:58Z dTal: Which infinity?
2020-07-29T14:05:48Z Riastradh: The discussion was about floating-point infinities.
2020-07-29T14:06:35Z ManDay: zig: there is nothing to converse
2020-07-29T14:06:44Z ManDay: (number? +inf.0) -> #t
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2020-07-29T14:10:07Z fizzie: (number? +nan.0) -> #t   ; but it literally *means* "not a number" aagh
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2020-07-29T14:23:22Z gwatt: fizzie: It's a number in the sense that it's valid to use in arithmetic operations.
2020-07-29T14:24:02Z ManDay: fizzie: NaN is actually recursive for "Not a NaN", only few people know that
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2020-07-29T14:34:37Z foof: Isn't that what the discussion is always about?
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2020-07-29T15:33:49Z zig: for some reason `apt install emacs-nox` on debian buster pulls guile-2.2-libs :|
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2020-07-29T15:51:20Z zig: In the meantime: % apt search chibi-scheme
2020-07-29T15:51:22Z zig: Sorting... Done
2020-07-29T15:51:24Z zig: Full Text Search... Done
2020-07-29T15:51:26Z zig: %
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2020-07-29T15:57:44Z ManDay: How do you pronounce that?
2020-07-29T15:58:20Z ManDay: well, now you know how I feel about chez in gentoo
2020-07-29T16:00:36Z zig: I do not understand
2020-07-29T16:02:17Z zig: ManDay: what is the problem with Chez in gentoo ?
2020-07-29T16:02:33Z ManDay: i understood you're disappointed that debian doesnt have chibi in the distro repo
2020-07-29T16:02:40Z zig: indeed
2020-07-29T16:02:43Z ManDay: the same is true for chez on gentoo, it's not in portage
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2020-07-29T16:02:59Z zig: yes, but a gentoo user can easily make it happen ;)
2020-07-29T16:03:13Z ManDay: a proficient one x-D
2020-07-29T16:03:31Z ManDay: i'll just install into $HOME like I always do ^^
2020-07-29T16:04:03Z zig: I believe the default ebuild for chez would be around 3 or 4 lines
2020-07-29T16:04:25Z zig: IIRC
2020-07-29T16:10:56Z ManDay: my reasoning in these cases is as follows:
2020-07-29T16:11:42Z ManDay: if it were true, what you say, *then why has no one done it yet*?! And there's my excuse for being lazy!!!
2020-07-29T16:12:13Z ManDay: i'm pathetic. i know
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2020-07-29T16:50:11Z Blukunfando: We should have stayed in the Stone Age.  If technological progress was a good idea, how come noöne had done it yet?
2020-07-29T17:01:09Z nisstyre: Blukunfando: how do you know they didn't?
2020-07-29T17:01:15Z nisstyre: ancient aliens amirite
2020-07-29T17:01:40Z nisstyre: maybe we'll discover 40000 year old nuclear reactors
2020-07-29T17:06:39Z gwatt: nisstyre: https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/meet-oklo-the-earths-two-billion-year-old-only-known-natural-nuclear-reactor
2020-07-29T17:06:39Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/l95oMIBUVL
2020-07-29T17:06:46Z ManDay: Blukunfando: it's just those things for which I can't quite relate to a effort/value ratio...
2020-07-29T17:07:04Z ManDay: that ebuild... i dunno. typing ./configure and make install is just quicker
2020-07-29T17:07:17Z ManDay: and sometimes I put those two into a script. like a real admin.
2020-07-29T17:07:35Z ManDay: where is that xkcd comic about repetitive tasks over time?
2020-07-29T17:10:59Z ManDay: there is https://xkcd.com/1319/ which I didn't know but google suggested, heh
2020-07-29T17:11:06Z ManDay: for the other i only find an imgur link https://imgur.com/gallery/Q8kV8
2020-07-29T17:11:22Z ManDay: so I'm somewhere in the middle but I *think* I'm at the left
2020-07-29T17:14:01Z wasamasa: there is one with a table on time saved
2020-07-29T17:15:47Z ecraven: https://xkcd.com/1205/https://xkcd.com/1205/
2020-07-29T17:16:05Z ecraven: https://xkcd.com/1205 actually
2020-07-29T17:17:07Z wasamasa: yes
2020-07-29T17:17:24Z wasamasa: the conclusion is that it's not so much about the time saved, but other factors
2020-07-29T17:17:37Z wasamasa: like reducing annoyance, increasing quality, ...
2020-07-29T17:18:20Z zig: +1
2020-07-29T17:19:14Z wasamasa: or maybe just ergonomy
2020-07-29T17:19:33Z wasamasa: replacing a repetitive task with something that's barely faster, but easier on the fingers is nice
2020-07-29T17:21:00Z wasamasa: like acme's mouse button chording in favor of funny key combinations
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2020-07-29T21:55:24Z mdhughes: Oh, I thought you meant https://xkcd.com/505/
2020-07-29T22:01:41Z zig: :(
2020-07-29T22:01:44Z zig: :)
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2020-07-30T01:39:05Z Fare: I have syntax issues
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2020-07-30T01:40:39Z Fare: I'm trying to define a (with-id (ctx (id expr)) body ...) macro that with replace id inside body with the unhygienic evaluation of expr in the context ctx, where expr is an expression that at the syntax-level evaluates to a symbol.
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2020-07-30T01:44:37Z Fare: So, assuming global is a global variable, (with-id (global (x2 (string->symbol (string-append "x" "1")))) (def x2 5)) would define a variable x1 bound to 5
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2020-07-30T10:09:10Z ManDay: About libraries, what's the expected behaviour if you put definitions which are used by a library outside of (=before) the (library) form into the same file?
2020-07-30T10:09:16Z ManDay: by r6/7rs
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2020-07-30T10:42:51Z wasamasa: ManDay: are you venturing into unspecified territory again
2020-07-30T10:45:05Z wasamasa: ManDay: anyway, consider that a scheme implementation will usually want to support both library and non-library code
2020-07-30T10:45:56Z wasamasa: ManDay: hence I don't expect the standards to have an answer towards what happens if you mix both styles, only how libraries are specified
2020-07-30T10:48:02Z erkin: ManDay: I'd expect all top-level definitions to be visible to the library, but not to the libraries importing that library.
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2020-07-30T10:50:24Z ManDay_clone: wasamasa: so by the spec, all that is used by the library must reside in the (library) form?
2020-07-30T10:50:47Z wasamasa: the library body must be in the form
2020-07-30T10:50:53Z ManDay_clone: (and not mentioned in the (export) syntax if you don't want it to be exported)
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2020-07-30T10:51:24Z erkin: Theoretically if you want to use something in a library, you need to `import' it, including basic Scheme primitives.
2020-07-30T10:51:39Z ManDay_clone: what about the code that is not exported? Where can it be put? In the (library) form? Outside of the (library) form? Must it go into another (library)?
2020-07-30T10:51:52Z erkin: In the `library' form of course.
2020-07-30T10:51:59Z ManDay_clone: ah ok
2020-07-30T10:52:08Z erkin: The whole point is that you can freely use internal definitions without having to export them.
2020-07-30T10:52:34Z ManDay_clone: sure, but scheme is weird. might have expected it to be put into another library (which would work in any case but be cumbersome)
2020-07-30T10:52:41Z erkin: The old convention was using prefixes to denote internal procedures/variables so that the user of the library knows not to use them.
2020-07-30T10:52:56Z erkin: Which is obviously very clunky but it's a consequence of treating the entire program like a single file.
2020-07-30T10:53:17Z wasamasa: programming languages requiring you to explicitly hide identifiers are the weird ones
2020-07-30T10:53:25Z wasamasa: looking at you, elisp
2020-07-30T10:54:15Z erkin: Honestly, the "private unless explicitly exported" is a sensible design choice. It feels natural in tandem with how closure encapsulation works.
2020-07-30T10:55:32Z erkin: I remember reading something about how dynamically scoped Lisps had to do weird hacks to get closures to encapsulate properly.
2020-07-30T10:57:23Z wasamasa: lol, elisp is still a thing
2020-07-30T10:57:53Z wasamasa: read Stefan's paper if you dare
2020-07-30T10:58:29Z wasamasa: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~monnier/hopl-4-emacs-lisp.pdf
2020-07-30T11:01:30Z erkin: oh goddess
2020-07-30T11:01:53Z erkin: Eh, I don't have anything better to do right now. I'll save that on my phone.
2020-07-30T11:02:28Z ManDay_clone just discovered that (mod) and (modulo) are two different functions...
2020-07-30T11:04:51Z autumn[m]: *trying to learn scheme here* ... does the => syntax in (cond) *do* something? i thought it was just decoration, but i'm... barely even a beginner i guess. >.>
2020-07-30T11:05:06Z wasamasa: it is syntax for reusing the result of the check
2020-07-30T11:06:32Z autumn[m]: ah it does do something. whooops haha
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2020-07-30T11:24:38Z wasamasa: so suppose you do (cond ((string->number "5") => (lambda (n) (display (* n 2)) (newline))))
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2020-07-30T11:39:29Z erkin: autumn[m]: It's a part of the macro and not an identifier in itself, to be clear. It means that you want the result of the condition to be passed to the body.
2020-07-30T11:40:43Z erkin: It's useful because of the common idiom of procedures returning #f if they can't return a useful value.
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2020-07-30T13:30:00Z zig: I know this is far away... but any one would be willing to organize a Scheme event at FOSDEM ?
2020-07-30T13:30:46Z zig: It will be a great opportunity to connect in Real Life (tm)
2020-07-30T13:31:16Z zig: I know Guile is organizing an event called something along the lines of Minimal Languages with great ideas or something.
2020-07-30T13:31:33Z zig: but so far they did not reach to the greater Scheme community.
2020-07-30T13:31:51Z zig: except if Lua is a Scheme?!
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2020-07-30T13:39:30Z jcowan: Lua certainly has become more Schemelike over time
2020-07-30T13:40:42Z zig: I might take that role eventually... but I prefer that some one else take this duty :)
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2020-07-30T13:42:43Z jcowan: One of foof's original plans was to add Lua and Bash support to Chibi
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2020-07-30T13:50:57Z zig: someone once said: ideas are cheap ;)
2020-07-30T13:51:13Z zig yells "let's have more of those"
2020-07-30T13:57:47Z ManDay: bad ideas are cheap
2020-07-30T13:57:52Z ManDay: there are plenty of them
2020-07-30T13:58:07Z jobol cool zig will propose a scheme devroom at FOSDEM
2020-07-30T13:58:10Z ManDay: good ideas do have a value. not as much as realizing them, but a value no less
2020-07-30T14:03:46Z zig: yeah, I agree good ideas have great value. Along those lines, there is quote that says something along the lines "A problem might be more interesting than a dozen solutions" in the sense that a formal question might more useful and interesting. This was said in the context of science research where apparantly, people focus and value a lot "solutions" instead of bringing forth interesting questions.
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2020-07-30T14:08:35Z zig: ManDay: what would be an interesting problem according to you?
2020-07-30T14:10:33Z ManDay: like, technical problem? I suppose the one I'm working on?
2020-07-30T14:10:58Z ManDay: other than that, there is one big problem called "humanity" which no one quite figures out
2020-07-30T14:11:10Z ManDay: but this is a tech channel
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2020-07-30T14:25:08Z mdhughes: Surely nobody's having a meatworld conference even by next winter.
2020-07-30T14:27:03Z mdhughes: I didn't see anything at last FOSDEM's events I'd watch. Databases or ranting about Freedoooom!
2020-07-30T14:29:22Z mdhughes: Oh, here: https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/track/minimalistic_experimental_and_emerging_languages/
2020-07-30T14:31:18Z mdhughes: "Lisp everywhere!" is actually a Scheme?
2020-07-30T14:37:02Z mdhughes: The problem is even if I have useful code, it's for production use, it's not isolated enough to put on some slides and give a vapid little talk about it that'd give good PR.
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2020-07-30T14:37:52Z mdhughes: "Yes, this is my OOP system on Scheme. There's many like it but you know why not reinvent the wheel. Thanks for coming."
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2020-07-30T14:40:30Z mdhughes: "So in summary to draw graphics in Scheme, just [400 hours of C hacking, FFI nonsense, screwing with MacPorts] and it's that easy."
2020-07-30T14:42:56Z jcowan: Reinventing the wheel is part of Lisp, and the curse of Lisp is that most such wheels are hexagonal.
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2020-07-30T14:44:25Z gwatt: I prefer to just bang some rocks together and see what happens.
2020-07-30T14:45:29Z ManDay: Hm, I'm having a bug here where eq? 1/3 1/3 returns false, is my use of eq? wrong
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2020-07-30T14:45:58Z ManDay: I suppose the answer is obviously that I should use "=", but I wonder what's causing this
2020-07-30T14:49:44Z mdhughes: eq? is like === in JS, it compares pointers/identity, not values.
2020-07-30T14:50:08Z mdhughes: (eqv? 1/3 1/3) => #t
2020-07-30T14:50:24Z mdhughes: but = is better if you know you're comparing math.
2020-07-30T14:50:34Z ManDay: yeah, that's what I thought and then I was appaised by seeing that guile confirmed (eq? (/ 9 3) 3)
2020-07-30T14:50:54Z ManDay: But that must be some implementation coincidence, that those are the "same 3"
2020-07-30T14:51:03Z mdhughes: impl-specific. guile must cache small integers.
2020-07-30T14:54:01Z ggole: Constant folded to the same fixnum, probably
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2020-07-30T14:57:07Z Riastradh: ManDay: Typically ratios are represented by pointers to objects allocated in the heap, whereas integers below 2^25 or 2^30 or 2^61 or so are represented by themselves as machine words called `fixnums'.  Creating a new ratio means allocating a new object on the heap and getting a new pointer which is different from all existing ones; computing the same numerical value as a fixnum always gives the same
2020-07-30T14:57:13Z Riastradh: machine word.
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2020-07-30T15:03:33Z jcowan: My rule of thumb: Never use `eq?` unless you can prove you need the additional performance.
2020-07-30T15:06:59Z zig: make it work, then make it fast!
2020-07-30T15:07:39Z jcowan: But on the other hand:  "This very large batch system has about 1000 bugs.  Would you rather all the bugs were fixed or that it ran 1000 times as fast?"
2020-07-30T15:07:52Z mdhughes: One principle I've picked up in Scheme is implying type by the methods I call. eq? tells me I'm using symbols. = tells me I'm using numbers. If a wrong type falls in, I'll get a useful exception.
2020-07-30T15:08:55Z jcowan: If you are comparing symbols, use symbol=? (or define it as eq? if you don't have it)
2020-07-30T15:09:07Z jcowan: s/as eq/using eq
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2020-07-30T15:10:52Z mdhughes: R7, I guess? It's not in R6. But I'd expect symbol=? to also blow up on non-symbols, which just mapping it to eq? doesn't do.
2020-07-30T15:12:46Z mdhughes: Oh, it's just not in the lib index.
2020-07-30T15:19:21Z jcowan: I think it is in (scheme base), which is indexed in the non-lib index
2020-07-30T15:19:58Z mdhughes: I should just look at CSUG index always first, since it has spec, lib, and TSPL.
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2020-07-30T16:47:39Z zig: I would like to prototype a newspaper-like frontend app, I picked up scheme as a theme, what do you think would make good top level sections?
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2020-07-30T17:08:33Z zig: nvm, I will focus on my scheme.
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2020-07-30T23:22:15Z sinsnare: hi, how can I use cons to make an output like `(1 (2 3 4))`?
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2020-07-30T23:23:10Z sinsnare: oh i figured it out `(cons 1 (cons (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 '()))) '()))`
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2020-07-31T07:09:57Z zig: here is book on fuzzing https://www.fuzzingbook.org/
2020-07-31T07:10:03Z zig project hoping
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2020-07-31T07:22:13Z wasamasa: zig: it's one of those where the author wrote most of the code for you, so eh
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2020-07-31T07:23:17Z wasamasa: zig: I suspect most difficulty is writing process supervision code
2020-07-31T07:24:11Z wasamasa: zig: especially if you want it to be reusable across scheme implementations
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2020-07-31T07:28:01Z zig: wasamasa: there is a complete fuzzer based on this book?
2020-07-31T07:28:04Z zig: I can not find it.
2020-07-31T07:28:14Z wasamasa: you import code in the exercises, lol
2020-07-31T07:28:29Z wasamasa: import fuzzingbook_utils, import Fuzzer
2020-07-31T07:29:19Z zig: those are mostly helpers, not an actual fuzzer
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2020-07-31T07:33:57Z wasamasa: including peg and earley parsers :D
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2020-07-31T07:34:49Z wasamasa: from Parser import process_inventory, process_vehicle, process_car, process_van, lr_graph  # minor dependency
2020-07-31T07:36:41Z zig: not a great discovery, any (maybe all) http parser have that, but here is the test suite of nodejs http parser: https://github.com/nodejs/http-parser/blob/master/test.c
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2020-07-31T07:39:27Z wasamasa: I don't believe all do
2020-07-31T07:40:16Z zig: I am trying to figure what I will do this week-end.
2020-07-31T07:40:28Z zig: I have almost ZERO interest in webdev, but it might help proove that Scheme is a "pragmatic" programming language and save me from the durable chore of trying to achieve things with django
2020-07-31T07:41:53Z zig: wasamasa: look at those number: https://github.com/jeremycw/httpserver.h#httpserverh-12390791-requestssec
2020-07-31T07:42:15Z zig: I think the best I did is 20K RPS using async + call/cc
2020-07-31T07:42:24Z wasamasa: microbenchmarks are fun, sure, but good luck achieving that number in a real-world web application
2020-07-31T07:42:39Z wasamasa: it's likelier that your SQL stuff or something else is the bottleneck
2020-07-31T07:43:12Z zig: it is a similar microbenchmark
2020-07-31T07:43:19Z zig: no db stuff
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2020-07-31T07:44:09Z wasamasa: I let nginx reverse-proxy my stuff anyway, so that's another reason that number is meaningless to me
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2020-07-31T15:49:40Z zig: I hope this time the code will be good enough to keep it around...
2020-07-31T15:49:42Z zig: % ./venv scheme --program src/arew.scm check src/arew/network/http/check.scm
2020-07-31T15:49:44Z zig: ** '(arew network http check) 'check-0000
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2020-07-31T21:14:30Z zig: anyone use alpine linux distro with chez scheme?
2020-07-31T21:15:05Z zig: I am looking for a lightweight distro, maybe it is time to move to a bsd.
2020-07-31T21:15:54Z zaifir: I use Alpine, but I wasn't able to build Chez on it last time I tried.
2020-07-31T21:16:12Z zaifir: musl issues, IIRC.
2020-07-31T21:17:32Z zig: :/
2020-07-31T21:17:34Z zaifir: CHICKEN, Chibi, Guile, ... are all packaged or build fine.
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2020-07-31T21:18:41Z zig: what would be the easiest bsd to get started?
2020-07-31T21:19:18Z uplime: linuxbsd
2020-07-31T21:19:39Z uplime: (im actually partial to freebsd but its not for everyone)
2020-07-31T21:19:53Z zaifir: I guess FreeBSD is supposed to be the easiest to use OOTB.  I like OpenBSD.
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2020-07-31T21:28:23Z erkin: zig: TrueOS.
2020-07-31T21:28:36Z erkin: Oh, it died.
2020-07-31T21:29:09Z erkin: Then plain FreeBSD.
2020-07-31T21:29:32Z erkin: I wonder if Lumina desktop will outlive TrueOS.
2020-07-31T21:30:13Z erkin: It seems the main focus shifted to a Void Linux distro called Project Trident.
2020-07-31T21:30:21Z erkin: Excellent. It's a dandy DE.
2020-07-31T21:31:58Z zig: trident is based on void linux.
2020-07-31T21:32:06Z zig: maybe void linux is what I am looking for
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2020-07-31T21:37:57Z zig: uplime: what is linuxbsd?
2020-07-31T21:38:10Z uplime: a joke
2020-07-31T21:38:34Z zig: oh!
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2020-07-31T21:39:39Z zig: I am looking for something lightweight, fast and somewhat fancy, so prolly wayland + sway.
2020-07-31T21:39:52Z Fare: or... resurrect scwm ?
2020-07-31T21:40:02Z zig: that more or less my current setup with ubuntu, but there is many process I did ask for like "tracker"
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2020-07-31T21:44:48Z zig: did NOT ask for
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2020-07-31T22:06:10Z zaifir: zig: "lightweight" and "fancy" seem contradictory in practice.
2020-07-31T22:06:37Z zaifir: Wayland is an unfortunate development in the *nix world, I think.
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2020-07-31T22:07:09Z jgart: how can I accumulate a list of lists by adding 1 to '(0 1 2) recursively until I reach 12 iterations of that process?
2020-07-31T22:07:34Z jgart: Here is an example of my input and output: https://paste.debian.net/1158511/
2020-07-31T22:07:44Z jgart: any help is greatly appreciated
2020-07-31T22:07:45Z zaifir: jgart: Like a list ((0 1 2) (1 2 3) ...) ?
2020-07-31T22:07:56Z jgart: (map 1+ '(0 1 2)) would give me just the first output: (1 2 3)
2020-07-31T22:08:07Z jgart: zaifir, yes exactly
2020-07-31T22:08:20Z zaifir: jgart: unfold
2020-07-31T22:08:23Z jgart: only until it reaches (11 0 1)
2020-07-31T22:09:25Z jgart: zaifir, would you be able to give an example?
2020-07-31T22:10:02Z zaifir: (unfold (lambda (xs) (= (car xs) BOUND)) values (lambda (xs) (map 1+ xs)) '(0 1 2))
2020-07-31T22:11:02Z zaifir: This terminates when the first element of the seed list reaches BOUND.
2020-07-31T22:11:28Z zaifir: So you'd get ((0 1 2) (1 2 3) ... ((- BOUND 1) ..))
2020-07-31T22:11:42Z zaifir: I'm not entirely clear that's what you want.
2020-07-31T22:11:44Z zaifir: jgart: ^^
2020-07-31T22:12:52Z zaifir: See `unfold' in https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html
2020-07-31T22:15:02Z jgart: zaifir, yes that is what I want
2020-07-31T22:15:07Z jgart: zaifir, thank you!
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2020-07-31T22:15:33Z jgart: I just need to wrap the output to modulo 12 but I think I can figure that one out ;)
2020-07-31T22:15:41Z zaifir: jgart: Great!
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2020-07-31T23:19:10Z [rg]: is it me or are scheme books usually large? except for the little schemer?
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2020-07-31T23:28:19Z aeth: [rg]: Don't worry, The Little Schemer is a triology (if not more)
2020-07-31T23:28:29Z aeth: you can always get more
2020-07-31T23:31:07Z aeth: (Personally, I can't wait for the film adaptation of the The Little Schemer trilogy)
2020-07-31T23:31:31Z [rg]: oh wow, that will be interesting
2020-07-31T23:31:59Z [rg]: I thought the little schemer was odd tbh
2020-07-31T23:33:11Z aeth: [rg]: I'm joking about "the film adaptation", but SICP does have a video series so who knows?
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2020-07-31T23:37:53Z zaifir: aeth: The Little books are a triology in the same sense of the word that the Hitchhiker's Guide books are.
2020-07-31T23:38:38Z zaifir: [rg]: If you thought the Little Schemer was odd, wait until you get to Reasoned Schemer and The Little Typer.
2020-07-31T23:39:06Z aeth: zaifir: classics of English literature?
2020-07-31T23:39:24Z zaifir: "'Recursion is not an option.'  'Why?'  'Because recursion is not an option.'"
2020-07-31T23:40:08Z zaifir: aeth: (Douglas Adams jokingly still called them a "trilogy" after book four came out.)
2020-07-31T23:40:17Z aeth: yes
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2020-07-31T23:41:57Z mdhughes: I watch https://twitch.tv/OldTimeyComputerShow all the time, a narrated programming tutorial would be perfectly good video.
2020-07-31T23:42:29Z mdhughes: And there's a bunch of programming streams, but I find those annoying since it's just a dude typing and swearing.
2020-07-31T23:43:12Z aeth: authentic
2020-07-31T23:43:25Z aeth: or does #scheme prefer untyped code?
2020-07-31T23:43:29Z mdhughes: Yeah, I can do that on my own.
2020-07-31T23:44:00Z mdhughes: 🥁
2020-07-31T23:44:35Z zaifir: Dynamic typing is where you write half a line, change your mind, then write something else.
2020-07-31T23:46:41Z zaifir: Whereas static typers have Sitzfleisch, that quality that Isidor Rabi said that Oppenheimer lacked.
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2020-07-31T23:50:12Z aeth: "static typing" is self-contradictory because the act of typing changes things and static is unchanging
2020-07-31T23:51:06Z mdhughes: Static typing is when electrical potential builds up and you touch the keyboard and get a shock.
2020-07-31T23:53:00Z mdhughes: Dynamic typing is when a hitting keys on the keyboard mechanically spins a wire-wrapped spindle to generate electricity.
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