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2020-06-01T00:05:50Z foof`: (columnar "    " ...)
2020-06-01T00:06:53Z zaifir: foof`: Thanks!
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2020-06-01T00:07:32Z zaifir: foof`: Great work on SRFI 159, btw.
2020-06-01T00:07:47Z foof`: SRFI 166 is the (mostly) drop-in hygienic replacement
2020-06-01T00:09:49Z zaifir: Right, of course.
2020-06-01T00:11:44Z zaifir: I'm still used to saying "SRFI 159 formatters", but I'll get 166 into my head eventually.
2020-06-01T00:22:34Z zaifir: (And 166 is still a draft.)
2020-06-01T00:22:50Z zaifir: Hmm, it's been a draft for a while now.
2020-06-01T00:32:57Z jcowan: We either need a new foof or additional hours in the day
2020-06-01T00:33:09Z jcowan: new, as in supplementary, not replacement
2020-06-01T00:36:15Z foof`: a very long while.  finally updated the sample impl, you can try out in chibi head.  will finalize soon.
2020-06-01T00:37:09Z foof`: if you can find a replacement, by all means.  I can move on to early retirement.
2020-06-01T00:40:41Z jcowan:  I appreciate how much help I am (finally) getting from teh Scheme community now
2020-06-01T00:40:56Z jcowan: of course it's easier when so many people are less busy even if I am not.
2020-06-01T00:41:40Z foof`: jcowan: what's up with bytevector-copy! in R6RS vs R7RS?  we used the SRFI 13 convention in WG1, but then WG2 defines (scheme bytevector) as identical to R6RS, with a wildly signature.
2020-06-01T00:42:22Z foof`: wildly different signature
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2020-06-01T00:47:45Z foof`: I see a lot of discussion about this in the WG1 list, including a formal comment from Marc Feeley, but don't see where anyone pointed out the difference from R6RS (although we likely would have sided with SRFI 13 regardless).
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2020-06-01T02:46:52Z rudybot: la la la
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2020-06-01T03:48:49Z jcowan: foof`: The R6RS changed a number of things like that where we decided to stick with R5RS or an existing SRFI.  I think the first person to notice this one was Will Clinger.  In Larceny, if you start it up with the -r7r6 switch, all libs from both standards are loaded, but R6RS bytevector-copy is imported as r6rs:bytevector-copy!.
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2020-06-01T04:25:58Z foof`: I think it should have been noted in the tangerine poll.  It would have been nice to have an option to rename this accordingly to avoid confusion.
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2020-06-01T13:21:16Z lockywolf__: How can I print the contents of an r6rs exception?
2020-06-01T13:25:46Z lockywolf__: *condition
2020-06-01T13:27:18Z jcowan: lockywolf__: No standard way.  Since a condition object is a kind of record, you can use the (rnrs records inspection) library to find out what's inside, provided that the condition type has not been marked as opaque.
2020-06-01T13:36:07Z weinholt: lockywolf__, here's a library that shows how to do it: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~derick-eddington/scheme-libraries/xitomatl/view/head:/conditions/print-condition.sls
2020-06-01T13:36:08Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/ByhO9EUlXw
2020-06-01T13:38:30Z jcowan: Just so, but this will crash on the call to record-rtd if the implementer of condition types has chosen to make them opaque.  For good and ill, that is not the default.
2020-06-01T13:38:58Z lockywolf__: okay...
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2020-06-01T13:42:41Z gwatt: There are a grab-bag of condition procedures that are defined to access the innner parts
2020-06-01T13:43:51Z gwatt: condition-who, simple-conditions (if you have a compound condition), condition-message, condition-message, condition-irritants
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2020-06-01T13:46:00Z gwatt: jcowan: R6RS does say that conditions generated from define-condition-type are non-opaque and non-sealed.
2020-06-01T13:46:42Z jcowan: Yes, but (unlike in CL) condition types are record types.
2020-06-01T13:46:45Z gwatt: A person can obviously ignore that and use the normal record inheritance
2020-06-01T13:47:08Z jcowan: So you can manufacture them otherwise, especially if they are present at startup.
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2020-06-02T05:21:25Z greyeax: Out of curiosity, how do you guys feel about Haskell?
2020-06-02T05:23:07Z ArthurStrong: ML-style typing is good, IMHO
2020-06-02T05:23:28Z greyeax: ml-style?
2020-06-02T05:23:49Z ArthurStrong: greyeax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley%E2%80%93Milner_type_system
2020-06-02T05:23:57Z ArthurStrong: greyeax: inherited from ML, Caml, OCaml...
2020-06-02T05:24:01Z ArthurStrong: greyeax: used in Haskell as well
2020-06-02T05:24:26Z greyeax: Oh god
2020-06-02T05:24:31Z greyeax: I couldn't parse even the first line lol
2020-06-02T05:25:12Z ArthurStrong: greyeax: *ML and Haskell are statically typed PLs. Sometimes this is more handy than dynamic types in Scheme, Lisp, Python, etc
2020-06-02T05:26:08Z greyeax: ahh
2020-06-02T05:26:38Z ArthurStrong: Haskell is research PL anyway. Not very practical.
2020-06-02T05:26:52Z greyeax: isn't the same said of scheme though?
2020-06-02T05:27:03Z lockywolf_: chez scheme is practical
2020-06-02T05:27:28Z lockywolf_: Feels very much like Cisco's answer to Erlang.
2020-06-02T05:27:34Z ArthurStrong: greyeax: Scheme uses dynamic typing. A variable can change its type during runtime
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2020-06-02T05:28:23Z greyeax: lockywolf_: What makes it 'practical'?
2020-06-02T05:28:40Z lockywolf_: What makes a language practical?
2020-06-02T05:28:48Z greyeax: ArthurStrong: Ahh, kk so like, C or C++ or Rust and so on right?
2020-06-02T05:28:48Z greyeax: you HAVE to say this is an int, this is a string, etc
2020-06-02T05:29:30Z greyeax: yea
2020-06-02T05:29:33Z ArthurStrong: greyeax: yes, but Haskell doesn't require from programmer to define each type. Rather, variable's type is deduced from value. 1 is int, 1.2 is float, "asd" is string, etc
2020-06-02T05:29:40Z ArthurStrong: greyeax: like "auto" in C++
2020-06-02T05:29:46Z greyeax: I mean any programming language is technically capable of producing useful output right?
2020-06-02T05:29:53Z lockywolf_: Chez scheme has almost everything you'd want from a modern but moderately-sized language
2020-06-02T05:29:55Z greyeax: i mean outside of available libraries and the such
2020-06-02T05:29:56Z ArthurStrong: greyeax: down to brainfuck, yes
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2020-06-02T05:30:22Z greyeax: ahh good 'ol brainfuck
2020-06-02T05:30:39Z lockywolf_: If you want a lot of fast simple number-crunching in a high-level language, choosing chez or erlang is not a bad idea.
2020-06-02T05:30:39Z ArthurStrong: greyeax: it's just not practical at all
2020-06-02T05:31:20Z lockywolf_: As long as your developers team is not too big and people know what they are doing.
2020-06-02T05:37:10Z lockywolf_: Is there any "survey" to expose relative advantages and disadvantages of the low-level macro systems? i.e. syntax-case vs er-macro-transformer vs sc-macro-transformer
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2020-06-02T05:38:50Z greyeax: i suppose practicality is a matter of perspective
2020-06-02T05:39:06Z greyeax: tbh i just write scripts so python would do but the foreward in SICP really inspired me
2020-06-02T05:39:17Z greyeax: and scheme has an interesting history with interesting people
2020-06-02T05:40:02Z lockywolf_: sicp is ... interesting...
2020-06-02T05:40:31Z greyeax: interesting?
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2020-06-02T06:09:53Z lockywolf_: huh, rust has something like syntax-rules
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2020-06-02T06:12:16Z mdhughes: Even assembly (or machine language) is practical. It takes a while to build up your own library from basic particles, then you can code more or less as normal. Using a HLL just makes that *easier*.
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2020-06-02T08:46:04Z lockywolf_: should two symbols of equal representation be considered (eq?) if they are on two different machines?
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2020-06-02T08:52:11Z foof`: what is the protocol for distributed eq? if it doesn't involve transferring all arguments to one machine?
2020-06-02T08:53:41Z foof`: ... and how do you pass it an object not on the current machine?  if you have a wrapper reference, then eq? should act on the wrapper, not what it points to.
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2020-06-02T08:56:49Z lockywolf_: em... the idea is to send closures from machine 1 to machine 2. but it's undesirable to send all of the environment (serialized)
2020-06-02T08:58:33Z lockywolf_: so the answer is "I don't know"
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2020-06-02T09:03:17Z lockywolf_: I remember someone maintained a list of scheme implementations... where was it?
2020-06-02T09:03:38Z foof`: you need to deserialize the closure on machine 2.  you could in theory use a separate symbol table for symbols within that closure (possibly with good intentions of avoiding symbol table pollution), but the consequence (eq? no longer working as expected) is probably more trouble than it's worth.
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2020-06-02T09:08:47Z lockywolf_: I found guys actually doing some s-expression based network protocol, but I am not sure they transmit closures https://github.com/TinkoffCreditSystems/Ogam3
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2020-06-02T11:01:18Z siraben: lockywolf_: Usually defunctionalization is the way to go when transmitting higher-order functions.
2020-06-02T11:03:08Z siraben: Sending arbitrary closures seems like a harder problem, if that's what you wanted.
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2020-06-02T14:39:55Z lockywolf: Who could explain me what is going on here? https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/sFK57X8phF/
2020-06-02T14:41:04Z lockywolf: tl;dr: (pretty-print (syntax-object->datum (expand <stuff>))) produces the same result as (pretty-print (expand <stuff>))
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2020-06-02T14:51:24Z lockywolf: syntax-rules kinda resembles prolog...
2020-06-02T14:51:55Z jcowan: Somewhat.  But it doesn't actually unify: it's more like pattern matching in ML or Haskell or what not.
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2020-06-02T15:30:22Z gwatt: lockywolf: does (expand <stuff>) return a syntax object or a datum?
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2020-06-02T15:31:53Z lockywolf: gwatt, it's chez: "expand treats obj as the representation of an expression. It expands the expression in
2020-06-02T15:31:53Z lockywolf: environment env and returns an object representing the expanded form."
2020-06-02T15:32:11Z lockywolf: (expand obj env)
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2020-06-02T15:33:44Z gwatt: so it's a datum. all data are valid syntax-objects and syntax-object->datum will just return the same thing it was given
2020-06-02T15:35:31Z lockywolf: "returns an object representing ..." would make me think that it's a syntactic object
2020-06-02T15:35:58Z lockywolf: but I guess if every datum is a valid object, indee
2020-06-02T15:36:00Z lockywolf: d
2020-06-02T15:36:03Z lockywolf: it has nothing to remove
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2020-06-02T16:09:44Z zaifir: If we've specified a procedure taking a procedure argument `thunk' which "tail-calls `thunk' with no arguments and returns its value", is it sufficient to just have (thunk) be the value of evaluating the procedure, or is there some extra continuation magic necessary for cases where the dynamic extent is re-entered?
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2020-06-02T16:10:17Z zaifir: A trivial example: (define (foo thunk) (thunk))  ; good enough?
2020-06-02T16:11:25Z zaifir: Maybe this seems obvious, but I'm not well-versed in continuation arcana.
2020-06-02T16:11:28Z Riastradh: I'm not sure what extra magic you're worried about?
2020-06-02T16:12:43Z zaifir: Ugh, I'm not even sure I know what magic I'm worried about.
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2020-06-02T16:58:02Z rain1: dynamic-extent?
2020-06-02T16:58:25Z rain1: are you thinking about the continuation wind stuff? procedures dont have any of that by default
2020-06-02T17:06:02Z gwatt: rain1: unless they invoke continuations or have continuations invoked from within their dynamic extent
2020-06-02T17:08:56Z zaifir: I'm just overthinking it.
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2020-06-02T20:02:42Z zig: Appropriate greeting time everybody
2020-06-02T20:14:45Z Vidjuheffex: Helli
2020-06-02T20:14:48Z Vidjuheffex: Also, hello
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2020-06-03T03:38:40Z Balooga: Greetings
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2020-06-03T03:41:01Z zaifir: Balooga: Hi.
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2020-06-03T06:40:27Z lockywolf_: Where can I read something about "modules"?
2020-06-03T06:40:50Z lockywolf_: chibi's documentation is very laconic
2020-06-03T06:44:02Z lockywolf_: geiser uses modules instead of environments
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2020-06-03T06:56:39Z amirouche: It is not as easy as I was thinking to parse JSON lines with SRFI-180.
2020-06-03T06:57:13Z amirouche: at least not in one pass
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2020-06-03T13:36:57Z foof`: jcowan: I can't keep track of all the arguments about (char-upcase #\ß).  My understanding had been it's always been undefined, and "SS" in a string context.  But now in a char context it seems we have U+1e9e: http://archives.miloush.net/michkap/archive/2008/05/15/8506679.html
2020-06-03T13:37:47Z foof`: so there's no arguing (char-upcase #xDF) => #x1E9E?
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2020-06-03T14:19:15Z jcowan: No. In normal German text (which doesn't use upcasing much anyhow), 1E9E is almost never used.  It's really more suited to display use, and didn't become part of official orthography until 2017.  SS is still the preferred uppercase equivalent.
2020-06-03T14:19:24Z jcowan: foof`: ^^
2020-06-03T14:20:08Z wasamasa: then there's countries which eschew ß and only use ss
2020-06-03T14:20:19Z foof`: Right, but I'm asking about the character context.  (char-upcase #\xDF) => "SS" is not an option.
2020-06-03T14:20:24Z wasamasa: but where they still speak german with a funny accent
2020-06-03T14:21:41Z jcowan: Switzerland.  In any case, Unicode says that in that char-upcase returns ß unchanged.
2020-06-03T14:22:00Z jcowan: The characters basically differ only in width anyhow.
2020-06-03T14:22:32Z foof`: width is determine by the glyph, outside the scope of unicode
2020-06-03T14:22:44Z wasamasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_%E1%BA%9E
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2020-06-03T14:34:06Z foof`: ah, I see, Unicode specifies (char-downcase #\x1E9E) => #\xDF
2020-06-03T14:34:38Z foof`: the chibi code assumes this is reciprocal because there is no upcase defined for #\xDF
2020-06-03T14:35:40Z foof`: this seems broken on unicodes part.
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2020-06-03T14:45:48Z foof`: and the wp article just suggests this is gaining more acceptance and is likely to be made reciprocal (in the simple context) in a later revision
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2020-06-03T14:51:09Z tdammers: uppercase ß simply isn't a thing
2020-06-03T14:51:22Z tdammers: well, it is, but it's not used in any real contexts
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2020-06-03T14:56:11Z wasamasa: it's great for trolling germans
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2020-06-03T15:06:31Z tdammers: as a German, I approve
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2020-06-03T15:52:04Z Riastradh: foof`: char-upcase/char-downcase is a broken concept in Unicode
2020-06-03T15:53:25Z edgar-rft: down with case! :-)
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2020-06-03T17:00:24Z zaifir: If only Herbert Bayer's idea of single-case writing had caught on... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Bayer
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2020-06-03T17:42:53Z mdhughes: ONLY UPPER CASE IS ALLOWED SO WE CAN SPELL THE NAME OF THE ALMIGHTY
2020-06-03T17:43:12Z mdhughes notes he does not have an almighty, nor capslock.
2020-06-03T17:43:51Z zaifir laughs.
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2020-06-03T19:40:36Z jcowan: THAT STORY IS UNTRUE, BUT SI NON E VERO E BEN TROVATO
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2020-06-03T20:17:08Z tdammers: casing is based on a horrible misunderstanding of the latin alphabet that happened at some point during the Middle Ages
2020-06-03T20:20:04Z tdammers: the Romans would use two separate scripts for handwriting and engraving, but they would never mix them
2020-06-03T20:20:53Z tdammers: that habit started in the middle ages, when monks spent a lot of time on the initial letters of each chapter, often using the Roman "capitals", and used a more convenient script for writing the bulk of the text
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2020-06-03T20:26:36Z edgar-rft: they should be sentenced to capital punishment for doing that
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2020-06-03T20:44:40Z jcowan defenestrates edgar-rft 
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2020-06-03T20:45:53Z jcowan: Cherokee has just added optional lower case, and Osage has cases (the point of an Osage script was that having letters that looked the same as English letters but were pronounced totally differently turned out to be too hard for kids learning to read in both languages
2020-06-03T20:46:04Z jcowan: )
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2020-06-03T21:05:07Z edgar-rft: as far as I understand the discussion there are three cases 1) upper case 2) lower case 3) edge case
2020-06-03T21:10:33Z Riastradh: that's four, innit?
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2020-06-03T21:12:52Z Oxyd: Just you wait till they invent lowercase emojis.
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2020-06-03T21:22:02Z tdammers: is that like the two hard problems in computer science: cache expiration, naming things, and off-by-one errors?
2020-06-03T21:22:22Z Riastradh: exactly
2020-06-03T21:22:23Z Riastradh: or rather
2020-06-03T21:22:26Z Riastradh: approximately
2020-06-03T21:22:53Z tdammers: "the number you are interested in is exactly two. for some value of 'two'."
2020-06-03T21:23:25Z gwatt: with a certain margin of error, every number is two
2020-06-03T21:24:01Z tdammers: given a large enough sample, everything averages out to approximately two
2020-06-03T21:24:10Z tdammers: (+/- 2)
2020-06-03T21:24:59Z Oxyd: What if your sample contains a +nan.0 in it? What then?
2020-06-03T21:25:11Z tdammers: then you need an even larger sample
2020-06-03T21:25:36Z gwatt: Oxyd: we're talking about numbers, not not-a-numbers
2020-06-03T21:26:41Z Oxyd: rudybot: eval (number? +nan.0)
2020-06-03T21:26:49Z rudybot: Oxyd: your sandbox is ready
2020-06-03T21:26:49Z rudybot: Oxyd: ; Value: #t
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2020-06-04T01:28:37Z foof`: Riastradh: yes, I've always argued that, but it's there and has to return something :/
2020-06-04T01:29:45Z Riastradh: `unspecific'
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2020-06-04T03:04:29Z aeth: This is something that Scheme IMO gets wrong as far as elegance/purism goes.
2020-06-04T03:04:43Z aeth: Sure, everything's an expression, but if you have a useless result, it might as well not be one.
2020-06-04T03:08:56Z zaifir: It's better than the C convention of intractably muddling effectful statements and expressions.  At least when you get the odious <unspecified> in Scheme you know you've use the wrong thing as a value.
2020-06-04T03:09:13Z zaifir: Used, even.
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2020-06-04T03:10:16Z aeth: But it's only the wrong thing because it returns <unspecified>
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2020-06-04T03:15:50Z zaifir: You've mixed effects and values, at least.
2020-06-04T03:19:12Z zaifir: I guess my point is that Scheme avoids *side* effects by not specifying what -bang procedures return.
2020-06-04T03:19:34Z aeth: (display "foo") returning "foo" instead of <unspecified> can make sense in some contexts where you would otherwise have to do (let ((x "foo")) (display x) x) such as when e.g. debugging
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2020-06-04T03:20:01Z aeth: and that's another example where Scheme's not purist enough because it's not a !-procedure :-p
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2020-06-04T03:20:44Z zaifir: Hey, even a variable reference is an effect, according to Oleg.
2020-06-04T03:20:52Z zaifir: Bangs everywhere!
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2020-06-04T05:46:17Z zig: hell all :)
2020-06-04T05:46:23Z zig: hello all :)
2020-06-04T05:46:27Z zig: x)
2020-06-04T05:47:16Z zig: I temporarly fixed json-lines support on srfi-180, but there is surely other bugs looming related to eof in the middle of json.
2020-06-04T05:48:11Z zig: So, since YOU wasamasa suggested to use a fuzzer, can you recommend me some reading about the subject? I did not look the web yet. Possibly an existing Scheme lib :)
2020-06-04T05:48:41Z zig: (all the tests pass, but the absence of proof is not the proof of the absence)
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2020-06-04T07:31:06Z wasamasa: zig: I'm not aware of any scheme projects, but there's likely to be existing ones generating json you can hook up to your json parser
2020-06-04T07:31:42Z wasamasa: zig: there's likely papers, but eh, it's easier to write your own thing if the existing ones don't help
2020-06-04T07:32:36Z wasamasa: zig: generate random things reproducably, detect interesting crashes, restart crashing thing, protocol everything interesting
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2020-06-04T16:26:36Z jcowan: Assignment is an effect, and so dereferencing a variable that actually varies is effectful also.  But for a variable that is only bound and never assigned, getting its value is not an effect.
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2020-06-04T17:59:28Z zaifir: jcowan: cf. Oleg's talk, "Having an Effect": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhERMBT7u4w  He argues that *any* variable reference is an effect, since memory access may fail, especially in code running on big distributed systems.
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2020-06-04T18:01:10Z wasamasa: https://bintracker.org/
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2020-06-04T18:02:24Z zaifir: This has the bizarre consequence that, with lexical binding, creating a closure is effectful, but using a closure is not.
2020-06-04T18:03:47Z zaifir: (And, with dynamic binding, the reverse is true.)
2020-06-04T18:05:47Z zaifir: wasamasa: Really cool stuff, thanks!
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2020-06-04T18:07:52Z wasamasa: the author seems to have grown an impressive beard from last time I've seen them
2020-06-04T18:07:59Z wasamasa: didn't know they make music either
2020-06-04T18:08:31Z wasamasa: I wouldn't have guessed from the occasional question on #chicken about creating an assembler :D
2020-06-04T18:14:37Z zaifir: It's nice to see more music-related projects in Scheme.
2020-06-04T18:18:21Z jcowan: Effect is a matter of point of view.  If user code allocates a pair, that's not an effect to that code.  But it is definitely an effect to the storage allocator.
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2020-06-04T19:22:23Z gwatt: pinebook pro came in today!
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2020-06-05T06:09:37Z amirouche: re bintracker: really neat.
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2020-06-05T06:16:51Z amirouche: srfi mailing list are very active, that is great!
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2020-06-05T14:02:03Z lf94: Wouldn't a type system in scheme be pretty straight forward? (definet toUpper ('string 'string) (lambda (x) (something-to-make-it-uppercase x)))
2020-06-05T14:02:17Z lf94: definet would be a new function for defining typed functions
2020-06-05T14:02:27Z lf94: Then you run the whole program through a type checker
2020-06-05T14:02:42Z lf94: and then the type checker outputs a scheme program with no types
2020-06-05T14:03:08Z lf94: or no, maybe you do something better, like return the function definition if the type check passes?
2020-06-05T14:03:09Z dTal: sounds more like you're talking about writing another language, *in* scheme
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2020-06-05T14:03:23Z lf94: it would be a very minimal non-turing complete language yes
2020-06-05T14:04:28Z dTal: no, I mean once you're at the level of running an entire program through a whole-program transformer, you have written a compiler
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2020-06-05T14:04:40Z dTal: for a language, that is not scheme
2020-06-05T14:05:47Z dTal: saying that, have you looked at Typed Racket?
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2020-06-05T14:22:10Z lf94: yes XD
2020-06-05T14:22:18Z lf94: I guess typed racket is the way to go
2020-06-05T14:22:37Z lf94: dTal: my idea was more of an "executable which is itself the compiler
2020-06-05T14:22:39Z lf94: "
2020-06-05T14:22:58Z lf94: so you run the scheme program, which then outputs another scheme program
2020-06-05T14:23:06Z lf94: while all being written in scheme
2020-06-05T14:23:21Z dTal: You might possibly do it with macros
2020-06-05T14:23:39Z lf94: I'm sure someone has done it, and I'm sure there's a reason why it's not popular
2020-06-05T14:23:42Z lf94: X)
2020-06-05T14:23:55Z lf94: Maybe it's too much effort to write such a system in that way
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2020-06-05T14:32:33Z wasamasa: like design by contract
2020-06-05T14:36:04Z wasamasa: see http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/simple-contracts for a non-racket example
2020-06-05T14:36:33Z wasamasa: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/contracts.html
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2020-06-05T14:48:17Z zaifir: lf94: How do you get to a target language if your macros take Scheme code to Scheme?
2020-06-05T14:51:15Z lf94: wasamasa: ah ha, yea!
2020-06-05T14:51:33Z lf94: this is pretty much what I was thinking
2020-06-05T14:51:53Z lf94: Lee's law: if you've thought of it, someone else probably has too
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2020-06-05T14:55:13Z lf94: Contracts seem superior to types, in that they are infinitely flexible
2020-06-05T14:55:53Z lf94: "But people want non-turing type systems for their properties"
2020-06-05T14:55:57Z zaifir: *sigh*
2020-06-05T14:56:08Z lf94: I know, contracts arent types, relax :)
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2020-06-05T14:56:32Z lf94: Have I annoyed you zaifir?
2020-06-05T14:56:34Z zaifir: Rich Hickey, is that you?
2020-06-05T14:56:40Z zaifir: Sorry, I kid.
2020-06-05T14:57:03Z lf94: To answer your earlier question: the target language would be scheme again
2020-06-05T14:58:05Z zaifir: Static type systems are extremely flexible.  But it's not straightforward to "add" static types to Scheme; you'd have a language with very different semantics.
2020-06-05T14:58:07Z lf94: You write the type system in scheme such that it's just scheme functions that take other functions, but does the type check before outputting anything
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2020-06-05T14:59:03Z lf94: zaifir: static type system can't be turing complete, so?...
2020-06-05T14:59:15Z lf94: (otherwise it's possible it'll never halt, never completing the check)
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2020-06-05T14:59:35Z lf94: they are less flexible then a turing complete system
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2020-06-05T14:59:58Z lf94: I agree though that being less flexible is actually a strength
2020-06-05T15:00:10Z lf94: I'm just "talking out loud"
2020-06-05T15:00:22Z zaifir: lf94: Agda and Idris are complete languages that aren't Turing complete.  That's not really a strong argument.
2020-06-05T15:00:39Z lf94: I said they are "less flexible", not that they arent powerful :)
2020-06-05T15:00:51Z lf94: Also how much less flexible is an argument too
2020-06-05T15:01:10Z lf94: It's like saying "well some metal x is stronger than metal y"
2020-06-05T15:01:30Z lf94: yeah maybe technically true but to the person punching into a metal plate it's pretty much the same strength :D
2020-06-05T15:02:22Z lf94: I think in the future complete languages will be a bit more dominant - I really liked Idris.
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2020-06-05T15:03:54Z lf94: Could we make a "complete" variant of scheme?
2020-06-05T15:04:00Z lf94: Would this even be useful?
2020-06-05T15:04:09Z zaifir: lf94: What's that?
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2020-06-05T15:04:25Z lf94: I took "complete" for meaning program execution is "total"
2020-06-05T15:04:33Z lf94: I forget the exact definition of what it means
2020-06-05T15:05:04Z lf94: > Total functional programming (also known as strong functional programming,[1] to be contrasted with ordinary, or weak functional programming) is a programming paradigm that restricts the range of programs to those that are provably terminating.[2]
2020-06-05T15:05:13Z zaifir: Oh, right.
2020-06-05T15:05:16Z lf94: So provably terminates
2020-06-05T15:05:27Z zaifir: lf94: You might like Pie from The Little Typer.
2020-06-05T15:05:37Z lf94: I wish they would just say "halting languages" lol
2020-06-05T15:05:41Z lf94: better terminology imo
2020-06-05T15:06:05Z lf94: I'll check it out. I'm just a fledgling schemer. X)
2020-06-05T15:06:19Z lf94: I'm mostly a JS/TS/Rust user
2020-06-05T15:07:01Z zaifir: lf94: But for "provably terminating" I immediately read "type-correct", so we're back to dependent types.  Curry/Howard all the way.
2020-06-05T15:07:12Z lf94: Yeah eh.
2020-06-05T15:07:32Z lf94: I assume some Typed Racket folks have experimented with total programs
2020-06-05T15:10:01Z zaifir: It's a very different language than Scheme.
2020-06-05T15:10:26Z lf94: It's a lisp, iirc, or something
2020-06-05T15:10:44Z lf94: I personally like scheme's ideology
2020-06-05T15:11:45Z zaifir: Lots Of Irritating Parentheses mean very little; just because the external representations of two languages are similar doesn't mean the semantics are anything alike.
2020-06-05T15:14:52Z dTal: restricting programming to "provable terminating" restricts the type of things you can program to the point of uselessness
2020-06-05T15:15:20Z lf94: dTal: yeah
2020-06-05T15:15:30Z zaifir: Agda and Idris do pretty cool things with that limitation.
2020-06-05T15:16:11Z lf94: Well you have different uses within each
2020-06-05T15:16:13Z lf94: like
2020-06-05T15:16:21Z lf94: You *can* have total programs in Idris
2020-06-05T15:16:24Z lf94: but you dont need to
2020-06-05T15:16:31Z zaifir: Type theory is young yet.  There's a lot of exciting stuff going on.  I see no reason to be pessimistic.
2020-06-05T15:16:35Z dTal: I don't know much about those languages but I doubt they are not turing complete
2020-06-05T15:16:57Z lf94: Yeah I guess type theory is young
2020-06-05T15:17:11Z lf94: But also our ability to grow in a field has accelerated tons
2020-06-05T15:17:19Z lf94: I think "time" is not a good measure of progress
2020-06-05T15:17:31Z dTal: there's an excellent reason to be pessimistic about any "provably terminating" restriction because it's easy to rattle off interesting problems it's impossible to solve under such a restrictions
2020-06-05T15:18:03Z lf94: there are good cases for total programs
2020-06-05T15:18:17Z dTal: for example I'm currently doing a bunch of CFD. Does my steady-state CFD case converge?
2020-06-05T15:18:25Z dTal: If it does, the program terminates
2020-06-05T15:18:29Z lf94: CFD?
2020-06-05T15:18:36Z dTal: computational fluid dynamics
2020-06-05T15:18:47Z lf94: ah
2020-06-05T15:19:06Z dTal: program termination is tied to interesting properties about things that we would often like to find out, with programming
2020-06-05T15:19:11Z zaifir: Idris programs are at least guaranteed to terminate.  Interestingly, it's implemented on top of Chez.
2020-06-05T15:19:13Z lf94: again: there are good cases but I think you're totally right that everything has a time and place
2020-06-05T15:19:34Z lf94: zaifir: Idris 2? or 1?
2020-06-05T15:19:59Z dTal: wikipedia says you have to add the keyword "total"
2020-06-05T15:20:00Z zaifir: Idris 2 has a Scheme backend by default, yes.
2020-06-05T15:20:07Z lf94: cool
2020-06-05T15:21:12Z dTal: does that mean you can't play with the collatz conjecture in idris
2020-06-05T15:21:20Z zaifir: The syntax of Idris is rather baroque, but it's damn impressive.  Philip Wadler called it and Agda "the best of programming languages".
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2020-06-05T15:21:47Z dTal: if I write a function which attempts to calculate the collatz sequence of a number, it won't compile?
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2020-06-05T15:23:00Z dTal: googling informs me that "Idris programs are guaranteed to terminate" is untrue
2020-06-05T15:23:07Z zaifir: Presumably not.  What would the type look like?
2020-06-05T15:23:46Z dTal: the type?
2020-06-05T15:24:04Z zaifir: The type of the Collatz-sequence calculator.
2020-06-05T15:24:26Z dTal: I don't know what you mean
2020-06-05T15:24:34Z dTal: The type signature?
2020-06-05T15:24:45Z dTal: int -> list(int)
2020-06-05T15:25:24Z zaifir: That's not a clear type in a dependently-typed language, because you don't have arbitrary-length recursive types.
2020-06-05T15:25:50Z zaifir: (At least from what I remember of Idris/Pie.  It's been a bit.)
2020-06-05T15:25:53Z dTal: anyway google says that Idris allows you to optionally specify totality for a given function, but does not require it and is Turing-complete
2020-06-05T15:26:07Z zaifir: As The Little Typer says, "recursion is not an option!"
2020-06-05T15:26:19Z zaifir shrugs.
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2020-06-05T15:26:31Z zaifir: It's nice that it provides that option.
2020-06-05T15:27:00Z dTal: and the broader point remains, you will never replace turing-complete languages with restricted ones because the usefulness is extremely limited and always will be
2020-06-05T15:27:13Z dTal: there's no reason to be optimistic about that
2020-06-05T15:27:59Z dTal: I'm sure it's useful for some limited subset of things like theorem proving
2020-06-05T15:28:07Z dTal: but we're no longer really talking about programming
2020-06-05T15:28:36Z zaifir: Idris is Turing complete.  I was responding to the wrong comment above.
2020-06-05T15:29:11Z lf94: I think that's what makes Idris nice: choice to be total.
2020-06-05T15:29:15Z lf94: Where it makes sense
2020-06-05T15:29:43Z lf94: I'm just wondering if the same can be said of any language depending on techniques rather than ... a type system or somethnig
2020-06-05T15:29:46Z lf94: I guess yes
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2020-06-05T15:30:14Z zaifir: Types are fascinating, but working out correct dependent types can be a bit brain-melting.  I wonder if it is indeed applicable to "general-purpose programming", whatever that is.
2020-06-05T15:30:31Z zaifir: s/applicable to/convenient for/
2020-06-05T15:34:48Z lf94: I think contracts are pretty dang cool
2020-06-05T15:34:50Z lf94: :)
2020-06-05T15:34:58Z lf94: I wonder why they're not more popular
2020-06-05T15:35:02Z lf94: in dynamic langs
2020-06-05T15:35:10Z lf94: I've heard about them before but never see them in practice
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2020-06-05T15:35:24Z zaifir: lf94: Every programming language essentially has a static type system.  "Dynamic typing" is something of a misnomer.
2020-06-05T15:35:31Z lf94: That I knew
2020-06-05T15:35:44Z lf94: And uh, no
2020-06-05T15:35:54Z lf94: static I think implies it runs at "compile time"
2020-06-05T15:36:01Z lf94: js is run-time type checking
2020-06-05T15:36:04Z lf94: (as an example)
2020-06-05T15:36:33Z lf94: (I say "compile time" but I think really it should be "type checking time" :P)
2020-06-05T15:37:05Z zaifir: lf94: Forget compile time vs. run time.  Scheme, for example, has essentially one type, the type of Scheme objects.
2020-06-05T15:37:23Z lf94: heh
2020-06-05T15:37:27Z Riastradh: The way PL theorists define the word `type' means what everyone else calls `static type', and what everyone else calls `dynamic type', PL theorists call `tags', leading to remarkably tedious arguments on the internet.
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2020-06-05T15:37:43Z lf94: TIL tags
2020-06-05T15:38:22Z lf94: zaifir: I think having that perspective is not too useful XD
2020-06-05T15:38:37Z lf94: Riastradh: so js is a "tagged type system" ?
2020-06-05T15:38:57Z Riastradh: lf94: JavaScript, like Scheme, has one giant disjoint union type.
2020-06-05T15:38:58Z lf94: let a = 'hello'; // tagged as string
2020-06-05T15:39:15Z zaifir: lf94: It's a very important point to understand if you're going to implement a dynamically-typed language.
2020-06-05T15:39:27Z lf94: a = 0; // now tagged as number
2020-06-05T15:40:00Z lf94: if (typeof a !== 'string') { throw new Error('only strings accepted'); }
2020-06-05T15:40:44Z lf94: Riastradh: we're talking on different levels here: so what do you call 'string', 'number', etc then?
2020-06-05T15:40:51Z lf94: tags?
2020-06-05T15:40:54Z Riastradh: lf94: The relevance of the perspective is that knowing the `type' (in the PL theorist sense) of a term (a variable, an expression, &c.) doesn't help you to narrow down any reasoning about that term; in another sense, the language has no compiler-assisted theorem proving.
2020-06-05T15:41:21Z Riastradh: lf94: tags, or disjoint union members, or variants
2020-06-05T15:41:27Z lf94: Ok :)
2020-06-05T15:42:03Z Riastradh: lf94: (I'm not saying I endorse this terminology for JavaScript -- obviously in the JavaScript lexicon, `type' is appropriate.  I'm just heading off an extremely tedious argument over who gets to claim the word `type'.)
2020-06-05T15:42:52Z lf94: I knew too that in JS, the type of everything is "one giant disjoin union type", but is it useful to see it this way, rather than an "anything" type?
2020-06-05T15:43:11Z Riastradh: What's the difference between `one giant disjoint union type' and `an anything type'?
2020-06-05T15:43:36Z lf94: An anything type is a variable which can be assigned any valid type defined in the system
2020-06-05T15:43:37Z zaifir: lf94: A type is a theorem, and a program provides a proof.  In Scheme, the theorems are pretty vacuous.
2020-06-05T15:43:42Z lf94: (definiton from: me :D)
2020-06-05T15:44:10Z Riastradh: lf94: What is `any valid type defined in the system'?
2020-06-05T15:44:22Z lf94: string, number, object, null, undefined <- for js
2020-06-05T15:44:34Z Riastradh: OK, so how is that different from a disjoint union of (string, number, object, null, undefined)?
2020-06-05T15:44:42Z lf94: I would say it's not
2020-06-05T15:44:47Z lf94: So yes it's ok to call it that
2020-06-05T15:45:03Z lf94: conceptually they are the same lol
2020-06-05T15:45:14Z lf94: It's just "disjoint union" is oxymoron
2020-06-05T15:45:19Z lf94: and so confusing to many
2020-06-05T15:45:55Z Riastradh: `disjoint union' isn't an oxymoron -- it just means that the set that any element came from is also tagged with the set it came from.
2020-06-05T15:46:35Z Riastradh: E.g., if you consider the space of strings {'', 'a', 'b', 'c', ..., 'aa', ...}, and the space of numbers, {0, 1, 2, ...}, the disjoint union of strings and numbers has elements like ('string', 'aa') and ('number', 123).
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2020-06-05T15:47:40Z lf94: Riastradh: I'm saying without prior knowledge the words together are oxymoronic lol
2020-06-05T15:47:58Z lf94: Yes, I know what it means
2020-06-05T15:48:04Z Riastradh: Well, yes, if you're not familiar with PL theory lexicon then PL theory lexicon will sound unfamiliar.
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2020-06-05T15:48:22Z lf94: But the lexicon still is not very human friendly
2020-06-05T15:48:28Z lf94: at least for this particular term
2020-06-05T15:48:43Z lf94: obviously it's too late to turn back now :P
2020-06-05T15:49:00Z Riastradh: (I am not making a judgment about the PL theory lexicon.  I only came in to intervene before an argument over possession of the word `type' became extremely tedious.)
2020-06-05T15:49:12Z zaifir giggles.
2020-06-05T15:49:26Z lf94: I'm just burning time :D
2020-06-05T15:50:25Z zaifir: In Scheme, you have Scheme objects and predicates which divide the set of Scheme objects into "types".
2020-06-05T15:52:37Z zaifir: But, from a (static) type perspective, even a very simple Scheme procedure like `boolean?' has the type Scheme-object -> Scheme-object, so there's not much reasoning you can do with that.
2020-06-05T15:53:44Z zaifir: (Which is why the Little Prover contains many tedious proofs that a true expression is #t, and not something else.)
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2020-06-05T15:56:52Z dTal: I've been learning Julia, which is the first language I've learned with a proper type heirarchy
2020-06-05T15:56:52Z dTal: I'd love to see a type system like Julia's in scheme
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2020-06-05T16:12:21Z rbarraud: dTal: Have you looked @ Typed Racket?
2020-06-05T16:12:52Z rbarraud: It's along the lines of EOPL3e from the brief look I had earlier today.
2020-06-05T16:13:25Z rbarraud: 0412 here so hitting the hay --- too much Twitter ==> Rage/Sad/Exhausted/Insomnia :-/
2020-06-05T16:13:29Z rbarraud: 'Nite :-)
2020-06-05T16:13:35Z rbarraud: Keep safe!
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2020-06-05T16:34:34Z lf94: o/
2020-06-05T16:34:55Z lf94: I don't understand how people use Twitter; it's like an inbetween of IRC and a regular forum
2020-06-05T16:35:00Z lf94: and fb
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2020-06-05T16:35:09Z lf94: too public for one-offs
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2020-06-05T16:54:40Z bitmapper: i didn't realize mit-scheme didn't implement syntax-case
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2020-06-05T17:30:36Z jcowan: bitmapper: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/SyntaxDefinitions.md
2020-06-05T17:30:49Z jcowan: you can get a lot more pages like that at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ImplementationContrasts.md
2020-06-05T17:36:09Z duncanm: jcowan: didn't you have a plan for generic functions before, do you have notes on that?
2020-06-05T17:46:36Z rgherdt: jcowan: that's awesome, thanks for all the hard work
2020-06-05T17:47:37Z jcowan: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/lib/chibi/generic.html is the baseline, which deals only in flat (non-overlapping) types.  To add overlapping, we need a procedure subsumes! which declares that predicate p subsumes predicate q and puts it in a database, and subsumes? to check the database.
2020-06-05T17:48:22Z jcowan: In Schemes with class libraries like Gauche and Kawa, subsumes? should respect subclass relations.
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2020-06-05T17:59:55Z lf94: wow cool jcowan !
2020-06-05T18:00:30Z jcowan: The design allows us to have generic functions (the best part of OO) without classes.
2020-06-05T18:00:49Z lf94: jcowan: "type is a predicate", so it takes 1 input and outputs boolean right?
2020-06-05T18:00:58Z jcowan: Just so
2020-06-05T18:01:02Z lf94: (Sorry, I'm a big scheme noob!)
2020-06-05T18:01:07Z lf94: ok
2020-06-05T18:04:59Z jcowan: np
2020-06-05T18:05:31Z jcowan: If you tell the system that number? subsumes exact-integer?, then you can write a generic function that behaves differently on exact integers than it does on other numbers.
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2020-06-05T18:05:53Z jcowan: Otherwise it would be a random matter of which predicate the GF system tried first.
2020-06-05T18:11:15Z lf94: neat
2020-06-05T18:11:50Z lf94: How would you describe: function a<T>(b: T): T { return b; } ?
2020-06-05T18:15:17Z Riastradh: but the `best part of OO' is all the arguments about what the definition of `OO' is
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2020-06-05T18:15:34Z jcowan: That's the worst part of meta-OO.
2020-06-05T18:15:38Z Riastradh: including caustic Alan Kay quotes and Bjarne derision
2020-06-05T18:15:55Z Riastradh: (meanwhile type classes are the sensible thing)
2020-06-05T18:17:53Z jcowan: I agree, but I want R7-large to have both
2020-06-05T18:18:01Z Riastradh: Both Alan and Bjarne?
2020-06-05T18:18:53Z jcowan: That would be too much to ask.  Both type classes (we already have Comparator and should have Dictionary fairly soon) and predicate functions.  Their relation is like that between external and internal iterators.
2020-06-05T18:19:00Z jcowan: s/functions/generic &
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2020-06-05T19:28:16Z msiism: One thing that keeps me wondering about recursive functions is that the terminal condition line will return a value (of the same type that this function deals with) instead of an exit code.
2020-06-05T19:30:02Z msiism: E.g., when you build a list using cons and recursing on the cdr of a list L, you'll ask (null? L) on every recursion and, when that's true, you'll return the empty list.
2020-06-05T19:30:48Z msiism: But the return value of the whole function will not be the empty list. It will be the list built with cons.
2020-06-05T19:32:17Z msiism: s/recursing/recurring
2020-06-05T19:38:49Z rgherdt: exit code is more common in imperative languages where you execute a function for its side effect, and the return value tells if the function was successful or not
2020-06-05T19:43:10Z msiism: Right, I just wonder how the return value of any recursive function building a list with cons is not the empty list (which would not make sense, I know) but the actual list that function built, even though the last thing ever executed in that function is [(null= L) '()], i.e., returning an empty list.
2020-06-05T19:43:33Z msiism: s/null=/null?
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2020-06-05T19:46:36Z rgherdt: in the recursion you are consing the previous values with the remaining calls to the function. So the last value is only the return value of that nested function call, which gets the previous one consed on it
2020-06-05T19:47:11Z msiism: Ah, okay. Yeah, now that makes sense. Thanks.
2020-06-05T19:47:15Z rgherdt: take a look at this chapter: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-11.html#%_sec_1.2
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2020-06-05T19:47:48Z rgherdt: It's not exactly the same example, but you could try to draw such a recursion tree for your example
2020-06-05T19:49:08Z msiism: OK, I see. Well, it's clear to me now. I was just not thinking recursively enough. :)
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2020-06-05T20:18:54Z jcowan: msiism: Welcome to the other side of the Great Divide.
2020-06-05T20:22:25Z msiism: jcowan: How are the two sides defined then?
2020-06-05T20:25:31Z duncanm: jcowan: i've been wondering how important CALL-NEXT-METHOD is to generic functions,  there's this paper from 1995
2020-06-05T20:25:32Z duncanm: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/202176.202182?download=true
2020-06-05T20:25:47Z duncanm: in this description, no CALL-NEXT-METHOD
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2020-06-05T20:54:20Z jcowan: misiism (if you get back here): Between those who grasp recursion and those who do not.
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2020-06-06T14:08:56Z siraben: To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.
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2020-06-06T14:25:43Z rain1: I used to understand recursion
2020-06-06T14:25:47Z rain1: I still do but i used to too
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2020-06-06T14:47:53Z madage: siraben, here is a patch: to properly understand recursion, you should first check if you don't already understand recursion, otherwise you try to understand recursion
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2020-06-06T14:52:16Z siraben: Recently I learned (while reading up on denotational semantics) that a recursive function fix(f) is just the least fixed-point of a Scott-continuous function f on a directed-complete partial order, what's the problem?
2020-06-06T14:52:17Z siraben: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleene_fixed-point_theorem
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2020-06-06T14:53:09Z siraben: Recursive functions are quite nuanced from a domain-theoretic point of view, since a certain recursive function may not exist at all and one has to prove it as a fixed point of some base function.
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2020-06-06T14:53:58Z siraben: So we can rule out nonsensical recursive functions, really.
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2020-06-06T15:53:58Z madage: I'm not sure if I follow, there's too much jargon, I'd need to dive a little more
2020-06-06T15:58:56Z rain1: yeah it is kind of mathematical
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2020-06-06T20:49:29Z zig: do you know a 2 hours in GMT associated with a week day (including week end) that can please the most people around california, est usa, europe and china / japan
2020-06-06T20:49:56Z zig: I am thinking about starting a videoconf every two month about scheme
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2020-06-06T20:50:36Z zig: a online meetup of sort.
2020-06-06T20:51:30Z zig: there must be an app for that (tm)
2020-06-06T20:54:32Z rain1: why dont we just meet up
2020-06-06T20:58:28Z erkin: We live kinda away from each other, don't we?
2020-06-06T20:58:41Z wasamasa: not to mention that travel isn't exactly an option these days
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2020-06-06T21:20:58Z jcowan: A recursive *function* may exist or not exist. A recursive *procedure* obviously exists (there it is, you wrote it); it may terminate or not terminate.
2020-06-06T21:22:54Z rgherdt: zig: I found this to see a timetable of a selection of time zones: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html
2020-06-06T21:26:40Z rgherdt: for example: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20200608&p1=37&p2=224&p3=248
2020-06-06T21:35:07Z zig: rgherdt: thanks a lot of the help. I think this can work: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2020&month=6&day=13&hour=5&min=0&sec=0&p1=37&p2=224&p3=248&p4=179
2020-06-06T21:35:07Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/OPAR5LKDVY
2020-06-06T21:35:42Z zig: but later june, after july people go on holydays I guess so it is less possible
2020-06-06T21:36:04Z zig: also it depends on whether I manage to setup a permanent jitsi server
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2020-06-06T21:37:28Z zig: spoiler: I rented a 40 threads (20 cores * 2) with 64 GB of RAM, to motivate me to put to production the new iteration, hopefully tomorrow
2020-06-06T21:37:45Z zig: (with a subset of the whole root.txt urls)
2020-06-06T21:37:56Z zig: price 200e :)
2020-06-06T21:38:44Z zig: *new iteration on the search engine
2020-06-06T21:40:38Z zig: this time I have a feature that blacklist words that are too common in the database (like "scheme" that would timeout the server with 8 threads) but now with 40 threads it might be possible to use without blacklising
2020-06-06T21:46:50Z rgherdt: nice!
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2020-06-06T21:49:09Z zig: thx, and since it r7rs, I might port to chez... or gambit (more on that later)
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2020-06-07T00:51:55Z siraben: jcowan: Right, that's a good distinction.
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2020-06-07T09:50:47Z lockywolf: What is srfi-189 about?
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2020-06-07T10:01:26Z zig: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-189/
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2020-06-07T10:01:33Z zig: it is somekind of error handlign facility, afaik.
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2020-06-07T12:55:46Z Vidjuheffex: Looks like monads at surface level at least
2020-06-07T13:04:53Z foof`: Everything looks like a monad at surface level.
2020-06-07T13:20:41Z zaifir: Very nicely played.
2020-06-07T13:21:26Z zaifir: zig: You've seen Maybes and Eithers before, right?
2020-06-07T13:23:06Z zaifir: zig: They're vastly wider in scope than just an error-handling facility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_type
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2020-06-07T14:12:27Z zig: I do not know either, just about maybe.
2020-06-07T14:13:04Z zig: the code of the search engine bitrotted, good lesson for me: never use unstable software.
2020-06-07T14:13:21Z zig: (with maitainers that unresponsive)
2020-06-07T14:14:09Z zig: luckyli the part that is broken I intended to rewrite it
2020-06-07T14:23:29Z jcowan: It specifically captures the ideas of "value or failure" (that's Maybe) and "value or exception object" (that's Either).  It is indeed a monad.
2020-06-07T14:24:38Z jcowan: However, since Scheme does multiple arguments and multiple return values natively (unlike Haskell), it can handle more than one object inside a Just, Right, or Left (but not Nothing), and Just of zero values is different from Nothing.
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2020-06-07T20:57:00Z Oxyd: So I've been playing around with syntactic closures and found a case where MIT Scheme and Chibi disagree with each other: https://paste.debian.net/1150808/ – in the comments, I've tried to explain my own understanding of what should be happening. My understanding seems to match with what MIT does, but not with Chibi.
2020-06-07T20:57:14Z Oxyd: Is my understanding correct? Is Chibi perhaps implementing some different kind of syntactic closures?
2020-06-07T20:57:40Z Oxyd: Also are there more schemes with sc-macro-transformer than Chibi and MIT?
2020-06-07T21:17:45Z Riastradh: I think your and MIT Scheme's interpretation is correct.
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2020-06-07T21:29:25Z Oxyd: Guess I can report it as a bug then, if I'm not missing anything.
2020-06-07T21:49:03Z zaifir: If I'd like to export a procedure from my library which is completely identical to a procedure in a library I'm importing, is it reasonable to (import (rename (SOME LIBRARY) (THEIR-NAME OUR-NAME))) ?
2020-06-07T21:49:40Z zaifir: The only downside that I can see is that errors will refer to THEIR-NAME.
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2020-06-07T22:51:28Z gwatt: zaifir: If you wrap the function so as to rename it, will the implementation show your wrapping function or still indicate the original?
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2020-06-07T23:20:02Z foof`: Oxyd: yes, chibi implements syntactic-closures without any closures ^_^;
2020-06-07T23:24:30Z foof`: I'll take a look later. I basically never use raw syntactic closures and use only syntax-case or er-macro-transformer.
2020-06-07T23:26:43Z Oxyd: foof`: I meant whether the observable semantics of Chibi's sc-macro-transformer is meant to be somehow different than usual. But I'm now even more curious, I thought syntactic closures were the native system in Chibi with everything else implemented on top of that.
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2020-06-07T23:41:04Z foof`: It is.  But neither ER macros nor syntax-rules (which are implemented in terms of ER macros) make use of the free variables.
2020-06-07T23:41:45Z Oxyd: How does it work without any closures, though?
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2020-06-07T23:43:23Z Riastradh: Oxyd: I think foof means that nothing makes use of the `free variables' part.
2020-06-07T23:43:38Z Riastradh: I.e., everything does (make-syntactic-closure <env> '() <exp>).
2020-06-07T23:43:40Z foof`: And since Chibi doesn't use closures but maintains everything in low-level C, the free variables are actually maintained as a list in the current macro expansion call.  I suspect the logic nesting these is incorrect.
2020-06-07T23:44:58Z foof`: (specifically the order in which we push/pop the free vars)
2020-06-07T23:45:38Z Oxyd: Well I noticed that the low-level C has a synclo type, including the free variables list.
2020-06-07T23:46:57Z foof`: there's no problem there, the relevant code would be analyze in eval.c, where we reference sexp_context_fv.
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2020-06-07T23:47:55Z Oxyd: Yeah I couldn't quite follow those bits. I just thought that it internally used some other representation when you said it doesn't use closures.
2020-06-07T23:50:24Z foof`: I'm not really sure the free vars are a good idea.  Anaphoric idioms are handy but dangerous, and syntax parameters can achieve the same thing.
2020-06-07T23:50:37Z Riastradh: I seem to recall syntax parameters work badly.
2020-06-07T23:50:57Z foof`: Oh?  I haven't actually used them myself, what's the problem?
2020-06-07T23:51:02Z foof`: And do you use free vars?
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2020-06-07T23:51:46Z Riastradh: Memory is very hazy but let me see if I can reconstruct an example where it goes bad...
2020-06-07T23:52:13Z Riastradh: (or rather, an example that serves as a test case to distinguish which mechanisms work well and which ones don't)
2020-06-07T23:52:33Z Riastradh: Say you have (if-it t c a) which you want to work something like (let ((it t)) (if it c a)).
2020-06-07T23:53:06Z Riastradh: The following should be a correct definition of `or', at least a version of it limited to two operands:
2020-06-07T23:53:22Z Riastradh: (define-syntax or (syntax-rules () ((or a b) (if-it a it b))))
2020-06-07T23:54:03Z Riastradh: The question, then, is what happens if I do (if-it 42 (or #f it) 0): do I get 42, or #f?
2020-06-07T23:54:40Z Riastradh: I say that 42 is right and #f is wrong, because you should be able to use if-it as a `subroutine' in a macro without leaking the fact that you're using it internally -- and the binding it introduced -- into the semantics of your macro.
2020-06-07T23:54:40Z foof`: or 0?
2020-06-07T23:54:49Z Riastradh: Pretty sure 0 is wrong too!
2020-06-07T23:55:10Z Riastradh: (but if you want to propose a macro semantics that leads to 0 I would be curious to see just how brain-damaged it is!)
2020-06-07T23:55:11Z foof`: `(* 6 9)?
2020-06-07T23:55:27Z Riastradh: Now I suspect that if you do something like
2020-06-07T23:55:34Z Riastradh: (define-syntax it (make-syntax-parameter))
2020-06-07T23:55:41Z jcowan: I once asked Will C what he thought of syntactic closures, and he said that he saw two Schemers (I forget who, but well known persons) arguing for about an hour over the meaning of one particular define-syntax
2020-06-07T23:56:00Z jcowan: and he concluded that if *they* couldn't agree about it, *he* wasn't going to understand it either.
2020-06-07T23:56:06Z Riastradh: (define-syntax if-it (syntax-rules () ((if-it t c a) (let ((tmp t)) (syntax-parametrize ((it tmp)) (if tmp c a]
2020-06-07T23:56:20Z Riastradh: then it will do the wrong thing, i.e. return #f in that example.
2020-06-07T23:56:32Z Riastradh: (in, say, Racket, or a system which has syntax parameters)
2020-06-07T23:56:45Z foof`: jcowan: that goes for any sufficiently advanced macro system
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2020-06-07T23:57:00Z Riastradh: If, on the other hand, you do
2020-06-07T23:57:17Z foof`: (note syntax-rules is insufficiantly advanced)
2020-06-07T23:57:33Z jcowan: Well, he claims to understand SRFI 72 (which is what Larceny's macrology depends on) and that is well beyond me
2020-06-07T23:57:54Z Riastradh: (define-syntax if-it (sc-macro-transformer (lambda (form env) (let ((t (make-syntactic-closure env '() (cadr form))) (c (make-syntactic-closure env '(it) (caddr form))) (a (make-syntactic-closure env '(it) (cadddr form)))) `(let ((it ,t)) (if it ,c ,a]
2020-06-07T23:57:59Z Riastradh: I suspect it will do the right thing.
2020-06-07T23:58:12Z Riastradh: eh
2020-06-07T23:58:13Z Riastradh: no it won't
2020-06-07T23:58:16Z Riastradh: but for a different reason
2020-06-07T23:58:42Z Riastradh: (it won't return #f, but it also won't work at all)
2020-06-07T23:59:28Z Riastradh: (The problem is that, when invoked from `or', it needs to use a name `it' from the `or' macro transformer's hygienic context.)
2020-06-08T00:03:34Z Riastradh: anyway
2020-06-08T00:04:01Z Riastradh: I think explicit renaming + an operation to introduce an identifier into a given context probably works better than syntactic closures.
2020-06-08T00:04:34Z Riastradh: cph rewrote MIT Scheme's macro expander for the umpteenth time in the past year or so.  I haven't really looked at how it works now.
2020-06-08T00:08:31Z rickbutton: Hi schemers! I have a question about r6rs library phasing. Am I to understand correctly that a definition inside of a library is visible only at phase 0 relative to the instantiation, inside the library? For example, how is it possible that two syntax-case macros inside a library are able to reference each other, if they are both only bound at phase 0? I may have a fundamental misunderstanding on this.
2020-06-08T00:09:18Z Riastradh: rickbutton: Are you asking about a macro definition that _uses_ another macro defined in the same module, or are you talking about a macro definition that _expands into use of_ another macro defined in the same file?
2020-06-08T00:09:33Z Riastradh: (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((foo) 'hello-world)))
2020-06-08T00:09:51Z Riastradh: (define-syntax bar (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx () ((bar) (foo)))))
2020-06-08T00:09:54Z Riastradh: (define-syntax bar (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx () ((bar) (syntax (foo))))))
2020-06-08T00:10:04Z rickbutton: the third case
2020-06-08T00:10:06Z Riastradh: The first bar uses foo; the second bar merely expands into a use of foo.
2020-06-08T00:10:17Z rickbutton: actually, I'm not quite sure what the difference between the second and third cases are?
2020-06-08T00:10:28Z Riastradh: Well, let me put it this way.
2020-06-08T00:10:29Z rickbutton: oh i see
2020-06-08T00:10:39Z Riastradh: Suppose you're compiling a program, but not actually running it.
2020-06-08T00:10:46Z Riastradh: Suppose foo is actually launch-the-missiles.
2020-06-08T00:11:08Z Riastradh: Do you want to launch the missiles when you compile the program, or do want the program you compiled to have a call that launches the missiles?
2020-06-08T00:11:19Z Riastradh: (trick question; the only winning move is not to play!)
2020-06-08T00:12:19Z rickbutton: Interesting.
2020-06-08T00:13:45Z rickbutton: Some background context, I am attempting to (and have mostly finished) porting the reference impl for srfi-72 to r7rs and chibi-scheme, for use as an expander for my own compiler. I'm currently struggling to figure out how the r6rs derived let and letrec are able to reference each other in their expansion, given the above phasing question
2020-06-08T00:14:25Z Riastradh: So, part of the point of hygiene is that the names mentioned in the text of a macro's expansion should have the same meaning wherever that macro appears as they did where the macro was defined.
2020-06-08T00:14:47Z rickbutton: right
2020-06-08T00:14:56Z Riastradh: In other words, the _text_ of a macro's expansion (in syntax-case terms, the syntax object returned by the macro's transformer procedure) uses definitions from the same phase as the definition of the macro appears at.
2020-06-08T00:15:23Z Riastradh: But the macro's transformer procedure is evaluated one phase up, say phase 1, before returning an expansion that will be evaluated at phase 0.
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2020-06-08T00:20:08Z rickbutton: lol foof`
2020-06-08T00:20:22Z rickbutton: thanks for the answers Riastradh
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2020-06-08T01:07:41Z zaifir: gwatt: Generally (import (rename ...)) seems to be handled the same way (define foo-proc bar-proc) is: the new name is just an alias.  So if bar-proc raises an exception, you probably won't know that it was called as foo-proc.
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2020-06-08T02:38:14Z gwatt: zaifir: I was unclear. Example: You rename `modulo' to `remainder' with (define (remainder n d) (modulo n d)). If you don't include checks on the arguments, any errors will be raised with the name `modulo'
2020-06-08T02:39:44Z gwatt: The runtime *might* be able to display a callstack, but given the TCO mandate, I don't think you can rely on that.
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2020-06-08T06:10:17Z amirouche: hello all!
2020-06-08T06:10:22Z amirouche: I will read on the new web application gateway protocol for python that support also websocket https://asgi.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
2020-06-08T06:11:08Z amirouche: I already have some basic http/1.0 library around, but maybe this will be better, especially if I can implement the interface, but leave the details for later.
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2020-06-08T17:10:06Z zig: they say asgi support http, http2 but seem to imply it could support more that just that
2020-06-08T17:10:44Z zig: like it support websocket as part of http whereas the previous major version (dubbed wsgi) only supported synchronous api.
2020-06-08T17:12:08Z zig: the interface looks like (asgi-server scope recv send) where asci-server definition must be passed the code translating calls to recv and send into socket operations
2020-06-08T17:12:36Z zig: scope is the dictionary (alist in scheme slang) representing the underlying socket
2020-06-08T17:12:43Z zig: send allows to... send
2020-06-08T17:12:50Z zig: recv ... allows to receive
2020-06-08T17:13:16Z zig: send can be an accumulator in scheme and recv a generator
2020-06-08T17:13:44Z zig: in python terms `recv` and `send` are `async def`
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2020-06-08T17:15:47Z zig: what recv (and respectively send) return (respectively take as argument) depends on the depth recusion depth of re-using that interface (but not the same (in the sens of eq?) of `asgi-server` making the call)
2020-06-08T17:17:01Z zig: `asgi-server` in asgi reference is called `application_instance)
2020-06-08T17:17:20Z zig: s/application_instance/application/
2020-06-08T17:17:30Z zig: `asgi-server` in asgi reference is called `application`
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2020-06-08T17:18:01Z zig: because the part the user of the asgi server should implement
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2020-06-08T17:18:23Z zig: erm... because that is the part that the user of the asgi server should implement
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2020-06-08T17:19:31Z zig: the thing is that as far as I understand, a given `application` calls another `application` that provides a higher level representation of the objects recv and send of the socket
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2020-06-08T17:21:06Z zig: but there is not direct socket specific in the sens of POSIX to do... in theory. But then, there is the question how a n+1 `application` can raise the connection in TCP given the address (returned by `recv`) should be closed immediatly because "evil practice" aka. blacklisting
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2020-06-08T17:22:24Z zig: like in the UDP case is connection less, but with the wrong implementation of asgi-server or application, you could possibly read a input (without connection because udp) but the IP is already blacklisted, you need to  communicate that to the caller someway before the parsing happens.
2020-06-08T17:23:32Z zig: anyway, that is the problem in gnunet, as far as i know, at the scheme abstraction level, one can not blacklist an IP or PEER at lower level in a transport layer.
2020-06-08T17:23:54Z zig: simply said spam is difficult to handle.
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2020-06-08T17:25:02Z zig: I guess, that is the way of the abstraction, it seems to me you always get to loose some "bytes" or "cycles"
2020-06-08T17:25:42Z zig: my favorite explanation of this, is https://activesphere.com/blog/2018/08/05/high-contention-allocator
2020-06-08T17:26:20Z zig: where one trades "cycles" for "bytes" and those bytes are then persisted (and the gap over atomic single unit increment sums) over tera bytes of triples.
2020-06-08T17:27:22Z zig: the advatange of the allocator discribed above is the ability to reallocate (in less cycles) some bytes on disk. Like implement `mv` in the file system.
2020-06-08T17:27:53Z zig: except here they claim it is over dozen of different hardware disk spread over dozens of hardware cpus
2020-06-08T17:29:04Z zig: in my past work, I did not use an unique bytes allocator, I prefix every subspace with a single byte, then I added the ability to make the byte a scheme list
2020-06-08T17:29:10Z zig: of basic datatypes.
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2020-06-08T17:30:12Z zig: which is even more cpu cycles traded for bytes (because `(list->bytes (lang scheme search inverted-index))` is bigger than `#vu8(0)`
2020-06-08T17:30:18Z zig: almost always.
2020-06-08T17:30:55Z zig: the funny thing, is that they added prefix compression so now, it not true anymore.
2020-06-08T17:31:30Z zig: some pattern recognition.
2020-06-08T17:32:58Z zig: as always.
2020-06-08T17:34:49Z zig: the allocator will also create an indirection between `(lang scheme search)` subspace a bytevector, the bytevector becomes the preifx of: `((lang scheme search) inverted-index home P4X432))
2020-06-08T17:34:56Z zig: the value part is emtpy in this case
2020-06-08T17:36:12Z zig: P4X432 the document store, is the id of the document otherwise sais, it says "document identified with bytevector P4X432 has the word "home" in its full text.
2020-06-08T17:37:25Z zig: there is an association that is (P4X432 . "a place called home") and another that is ("home" . P4X432)
2020-06-08T17:38:07Z zig: I think now I made a mistake avoiding completly the key-value directory abstraction
2020-06-08T17:42:25Z zig: I avoided the directory layer, because if the indirection created by the allocator, is a hotkey or something.
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2020-06-08T17:44:18Z zig: probably due to the fact that you have gap with the direct allocation that is an atomic increment.
2020-06-08T17:44:39Z zig: which loose even more disk space under contention.
2020-06-08T17:45:15Z zaifir: zig: Are you looking for feedback from #scheme?
2020-06-08T17:45:30Z zig: not really.
2020-06-08T17:45:48Z zaifir: zig: Then why the essay above?
2020-06-08T17:46:04Z zig: I wanted to share.
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2020-06-08T18:18:51Z heisenberg-25: is there any scheme implementation for gRPC?
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2020-06-08T18:27:25Z zaifir: heisenberg-25: You mean, is there a Scheme gRPC library?  Not that I know of.  There are plenty of vanilla RPC libraries out there.
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2020-06-08T18:29:40Z Riastradh: Arthur Gleckler might have one.
2020-06-08T18:30:11Z heisenberg-25: zaifir: Yeah, I meant a gRPC library
2020-06-08T18:30:30Z heisenberg-25: Riastradh: is there a link to his work?
2020-06-08T18:32:47Z Riastradh: no idea
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2020-06-09T10:52:05Z ecraven: is it unschemely that I sometimes wish `min' and `max' (and many other functions) would be applicable both as (min 1 2 3 4 5) and (min '(1 2 3 4 5))?
2020-06-09T10:55:35Z rain1: yeah i don't know a good solution for this
2020-06-09T10:55:47Z rain1: we obviously don't want to create short lists just to find the min of things
2020-06-09T10:56:23Z rain1: we can define them as variadic functions but then having (min x) not x is strange
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2020-06-09T10:57:12Z weinholt: what's wrong with (apply min '(1 2 3 4 5))?
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2020-06-09T14:11:27Z aeth: ecraven: But then you have (map + '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) where if you also supported the list form you would also support (map + '((1 2 3) (4 5 6))) which is now ambiguous. (And it's the same with any other procedure that takes in an arbitrary number of lists.)
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2020-06-09T14:36:54Z mdhughes: I use (apply min ...) for that, but it'd be a very short function to write your own (list-min ls)
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2020-06-09T14:45:50Z mdhughes: Also in practice I rarely just want to find the min, I'm doing some other stuff in a loop and tracking the bounding values is a secondary thing that pops out at the end. So my let-loop ends up getting a term `(if (< new-value least) new-value least)` each time thru.
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2020-06-09T17:22:22Z Riastradh: (reduce min #f L)
2020-06-09T17:23:06Z Riastradh: weinholt: (apply min '(1 2 3 4 5)) may be fine, but (apply min L) for a list L that may be millions of elements is likely to blow out your stack or otherwise hit a limit on the number of arguments.
2020-06-09T17:43:59Z zaifir: Given that we've had concatenate since SRFI 1, it's surprising that we don't have the folds minimum/maximum : list[number] -> number
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2020-06-09T22:25:40Z jcowan: zaifir: they are in SRFI 162 (the comparator versions)
2020-06-09T22:25:53Z jcowan: which (if it passes) will become part of (scheme comparator)
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2020-06-09T22:51:57Z zaifir: Oh, duh.  I've read 162 recently.  I guess I missed that.
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2020-06-10T01:33:25Z foof`: ugh, the reversed signatures of kons in fold and vector-fold are annoying :(
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2020-06-10T02:56:55Z jcowan: vector-fold is just not a fold in the same sense as the other folds anyway: it fills a fixed number of slots and that's it.
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2020-06-10T03:17:13Z Riastradh: foof`: sorry
2020-06-10T03:17:36Z Riastradh: wait
2020-06-10T03:17:45Z Riastradh: It changed in 133, so it's not my fault!
2020-06-10T03:17:57Z Riastradh: foof`: Anyway, you should just use loop or whatever!
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2020-06-10T03:26:42Z foof`: I was doing ((if (vector? seq) vector-fold fold) ...)
2020-06-10T03:28:11Z foof`: apart from the signature of kons this is the same, I'm not sure what you mean by it not being a fold?
2020-06-10T03:28:50Z foof`: yes, should probably just use loop, though then you want the generic (in seq) that takes any sequence type
2020-06-10T03:30:28Z foof`: Riastradh: SRFI 43 is (kons i state elt ...) where i is the current index, SRFI 133 preserved this order but removed i
2020-06-10T03:30:53Z foof`: SRFI 160 also uses the SRFI 133 order
2020-06-10T03:32:02Z foof`: the SRFI 1 order is the most natural because it allows you to build a list when kons is cons
2020-06-10T03:35:51Z foof`: another pet peeve: I much prefer SRFI 95 sort which takes an optional `key' argument to SRFI 32/132.  it's cleaner to write and has a common use-case when you have a tabular-like structure and want to sort on different columns.
2020-06-10T03:36:28Z foof`: (it also allows for a _much_ faster implementation in Chibi)
2020-06-10T03:39:05Z Riastradh: (what I'm getting at is that srfi-43 is a waste of time)
2020-06-10T03:42:18Z foof`: fold can be cleaner in some cases
2020-06-10T03:43:04Z foof`: e.g. my example was (define (maximum seq) (generic-fold max -inf.0 seq))
2020-06-10T03:44:20Z zaifir: Higher-order functions are awesome.  I'd always prefer them over loop constructs.
2020-06-10T03:46:54Z foof`: You should decide case by case.
2020-06-10T03:47:14Z Riastradh: (case case ((case) ...))
2020-06-10T03:47:42Z zaifir: Heh.
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2020-06-10T03:49:00Z zaifir: Agreed, there may be no higher-order function that fits.  Better to loop than to shoehorn something into a fold.
2020-06-10T03:49:33Z Riastradh: vector->stream
2020-06-10T03:49:38Z Riastradh: ->stream
2020-06-10T03:56:48Z foof`: ... it also seems my example is topical but that's purely coincidence :o
2020-06-10T03:59:23Z zaifir: I guess the "reversed signatures" started with SRFI 1 and have leaked into every other fold in Scheme...
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2020-06-10T04:06:58Z Riastradh: Topical?
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2020-06-10T04:14:48Z Riastradh: `vector-fold, not for internal use; use only topically'
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2020-06-10T04:42:25Z foof`: topical in reference to `(reduce min #f L)`
2020-06-10T04:43:44Z Riastradh: ah
2020-06-10T04:44:19Z Riastradh: I was trying to see how it might be connected to police abolition or COVID-19 or something.
2020-06-10T04:45:08Z foof`: (reduce police), (reduce social-distance)
2020-06-10T04:46:06Z foof`: (fold proteins-found-in-covid-19)
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2020-06-10T12:19:57Z jcowan: foof`: Sorry, I was thinking of vector-unfold
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2020-06-10T16:22:19Z jcowan: I've been thinking further about predicate-based generic functions.  Chibi's design is great provided you don't have any predicates that overlap: you can't dispatch differently on fixnums, exact integers, and everything else
2020-06-10T16:22:52Z jcowan: So the Right Thing is to have a subsumes! or is-a! procedure that specifies the relationship between predicates.
2020-06-10T16:23:13Z jcowan: The question is, should the relationship be recorded between the predicates themselves, or their names?
2020-06-10T16:24:17Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme uses the predicates themselves.
2020-06-10T16:24:36Z Riastradh: Scheme48 uses a separate object that represents a node in a lattice, which has an associated predicate.
2020-06-10T16:25:16Z jcowan: That seems to be clearly the Schemey way, but it runs up against the REPL.  When you redefine a predicate, all the subsumption relationships get broken.
2020-06-10T16:25:39Z jcowan: and not only are they broken, we don't even notice that they are broken.
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2020-06-10T16:36:50Z jcowan: That is why Thant's report on predicate GFs uses (global) names of predicates.
2020-06-10T16:38:09Z jcowan: it's vaguely analogous to the distinction between fixed and moving buffer positions in Emacs
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2020-06-10T23:47:43Z foof`: Riastradh: how does MIT declare a subsumes relationship between predicates?  or does it do some automatic inference?
2020-06-10T23:49:08Z Riastradh: foof`: explicit declarations
2020-06-10T23:49:47Z Riastradh:    (register-predicate! fix:fixnum? 'fixnum '<= exact-integer?)
2020-06-10T23:49:47Z Riastradh:    (register-predicate! negative-fixnum? 'negative-fixnum '<= fix:fixnum?)
2020-06-10T23:49:47Z Riastradh:    (register-predicate! positive-fixnum? 'positive-fixnum
2020-06-10T23:49:47Z Riastradh:                         '<= fix:fixnum?
2020-06-10T23:49:47Z Riastradh:                         '<= exact-positive-integer?)
2020-06-10T23:51:26Z foof`: does it support multiple relations per predicate?
2020-06-10T23:52:00Z Riastradh: no
2020-06-10T23:52:33Z foof`: does MIT have records with inheritance?
2020-06-10T23:52:37Z Riastradh: yes
2020-06-10T23:52:49Z Riastradh: (but not much uses them so I'm not sure it works very well)
2020-06-10T23:53:01Z Riastradh: (caused a huge performance regression when introduced)
2020-06-10T23:54:12Z foof`: single inheritance with no methods shouldn't hurt performance
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2020-06-11T00:04:39Z Riastradh: Yes, it was mostly a mistake.
2020-06-11T00:05:11Z foof`: (nitpick: I think the relations should be registered as '< instead of '<=.  we know whether it's a proper subset or not, and it doesn't make sense to have two = predicates)
2020-06-11T00:05:32Z jcowan: That's why I use the term "subsumes"
2020-06-11T00:06:08Z jcowan: Riastradh: What is the second argument: the name of the relationship?
2020-06-11T00:15:23Z oni-on-ion: It's Complicated
2020-06-11T00:16:16Z foof`: well, the above are all complex, certainly
2020-06-11T00:18:26Z jcowan: foof`: The problem with inheritance is hygienic vs. non-hygienic field names
2020-06-11T00:18:49Z Riastradh: jcowan: arbitrary properties; <= is one of them
2020-06-11T00:18:59Z Riastradh: foof`: Tell cph!
2020-06-11T00:19:23Z Riastradh: (I was not involved in the design of this system.)
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2020-06-11T01:02:43Z foof`: jcowan: that is one debate regarding the introspection layer, yes, but orthogonal to performance
2020-06-11T01:03:54Z foof`: Riastradh: counter-example, we might not know: (register-predicate! p? 'p '<= np?)
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2020-06-12T00:15:22Z erkin: I wonder why no one asked file(1) developers to add Scheme source heuristics.
2020-06-12T00:15:32Z erkin: https://clbin.com/U706B
2020-06-12T00:16:13Z Riastradh: No one, like who?
2020-06-12T00:16:14Z Riastradh: Maybe you?
2020-06-12T00:16:19Z erkin: It's got stuff like `defun' and `defmacro' for CL. Surely something like `(import (rnrs', `#!r6rs' could be added.
2020-06-12T00:19:49Z erkin: wait
2020-06-12T00:20:01Z pjb: erkin: file uses a file to store the heuristics. you can add one for scheme.
2020-06-12T00:20:03Z erkin: I thought it said something like 'MIT scheme band' or something.
2020-06-12T00:20:13Z pjb: man file # !
2020-06-12T00:20:16Z erkin: pjb: Yeah, the one I pasted above is the official `lisp' magic file.
2020-06-12T00:20:25Z erkin: It contains Scheme definitions... erroneously.
2020-06-12T00:20:35Z pjb: or old.
2020-06-12T00:20:54Z erkin: I don't think even the original Scheme based on Maclisp used these keywords.
2020-06-12T00:20:57Z Riastradh: christos is responsive to suggestions.
2020-06-12T00:21:43Z Riastradh: The MIT Scheme one should maybe be labeled `MIT Scheme fasl file'.
2020-06-12T00:25:18Z erkin notes down
2020-06-12T00:25:43Z erkin: And Lisp/Scheme should be Lisp or just Common Lisp.
2020-06-12T00:26:47Z erkin: Riastradh: Do .bci files have a magic number?
2020-06-12T00:27:36Z Riastradh: Compressed-B1-1.00
2020-06-12T00:28:02Z Riastradh: `MIT Scheme compressed debug data', perhaps
2020-06-12T00:28:24Z erkin: I assume the last four characters are subject to future change.
2020-06-12T00:28:32Z Riastradh: in principle
2020-06-12T00:28:47Z erkin: Well, time to learn `man 5 magic'.
2020-06-12T00:29:01Z erkin: I'll try to write a patch.
2020-06-12T00:31:02Z Riastradh: ...actually I guess that marker is just used by the compressor, but I haven't heard of anything other than MIT Scheme's debug data using that particular compression format.
2020-06-12T00:32:05Z erkin: I need to survey the most commonly used files in the Scheme ecosystem first.
2020-06-12T00:32:32Z erkin: I wish this kind of stuff were better documented.
2020-06-12T00:35:48Z erkin: wait
2020-06-12T00:35:57Z erkin: There's a separate file for Guile.
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2020-06-12T00:59:01Z foof`: guile is blessed by gnu, it gets special attention
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2020-06-12T01:14:26Z Riastradh: More likely someone involved in guile submitted patches!
2020-06-12T01:14:51Z Riastradh: christos doesn't spend all his time studying file formats to figure out magic files; I'm sure it's mostly volunteer submissions like you!
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2020-06-12T16:29:01Z [rg]: are sicp questions on topic?
2020-06-12T16:29:44Z rain1: yes
2020-06-12T16:29:51Z [rg]: in the section that describes the evaluation of a combination, where does it get recursive? https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html
2020-06-12T16:30:27Z [rg]: is it implicitly recursive because subexpressions can contain subexpressions?
2020-06-12T16:30:48Z [rg]: the definition they gave didn't seem recursive to me
2020-06-12T16:32:35Z [rg]: I am also unsure of how this tree is organised
2020-06-12T16:32:55Z [rg]: since results of the expression also form nodes
2020-06-12T16:32:59Z X-Scale: [rg]: this section ? https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_%_sec_1.1.3
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2020-06-12T16:33:43Z [rg]: section 1.1.3
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2020-06-12T16:33:53Z [rg]: yes
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2020-06-12T17:30:01Z [rg]: I suspect in the accumulator tree a placeholder is kept for the value that comes from evaluating the expression
2020-06-12T17:30:03Z erkin: [rg]: I'd say it's a rather broad definition of recursion: Applying transformations on the parameters until a base case is reached.
2020-06-12T17:30:16Z erkin: Repeatedly applying*
2020-06-12T17:30:27Z [rg]: how the values percolate upwards I don't know
2020-06-12T17:31:39Z erkin: To evaluate, (* (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4)) you first need to evaluate (+ 1 2). Then to evaluate (* 3 (+ 3 4)), you need to evaluate (+ 3 4). Only then the parameters are simple enough that * can be applied over 3 7 in (* 3 7).
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2020-06-12T17:31:48Z erkin: Well then.
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2020-06-12T17:32:17Z erkin: [rg]: To evaluate, (* (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4)) you first need to evaluate (+ 1 2). Then to evaluate (* 3 (+ 3 4)), you need to evaluate (+ 3 4). Only then the parameters are simple enough that * can be applied over 3 7 in (* 3 7).
2020-06-12T17:33:21Z erkin: Put it simply: To fully evaluate a combination, you need to first evaluate its parameters, all the way down. Once a combination has fully simplified parameters, it can be evaluated, slingshotting all the way up to the top-level combination.
2020-06-12T17:33:44Z [rg]: yeah that makes sense
2020-06-12T17:34:12Z [rg]: it's hard for me to visualize the tree though
2020-06-12T17:34:30Z [rg]: oh wait, so you evaluate it all, the say assign values to each node
2020-06-12T17:34:39Z erkin: How do you mean?
2020-06-12T17:34:58Z [rg]: each node in the tree must have a value right?
2020-06-12T17:35:07Z erkin: Yes
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2020-06-12T17:36:30Z [rg]: ok so for each expression, you do something like (mknode ...), then you can walk back the tree and sign values
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2020-06-12T17:37:03Z erkin: I'm not sure I follow. It's not literally a tree.
2020-06-12T17:37:12Z [rg]: oh
2020-06-12T17:37:24Z [rg]: a/sign/assign
2020-06-12T17:37:30Z [rg]: s/a/s
2020-06-12T17:37:35Z erkin: Nested lists *are* trees in theory.
2020-06-12T17:37:40Z erkin: But you do list operations on them.
2020-06-12T17:37:48Z Riastradh: do they have bark and leaves
2020-06-12T17:38:04Z erkin: If it barks and then leaves, it's probably a dog.
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2020-06-12T17:38:37Z pjb: any data can be a tree, as long as you define the tree operators (make-tree children label tree?)
2020-06-12T17:39:56Z erkin: You could make a tree out of lambdas!
2020-06-12T17:40:03Z erkin: (But shouldn't.)
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2020-06-12T17:59:38Z [rg]: does (and ...) always return an expression?
2020-06-12T17:59:43Z [rg]: or does it look like that in the repl
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2020-06-12T18:15:19Z [rg]: why does prefix notation allow arbitrarily long arguments?
2020-06-12T18:17:49Z erkin: [rg]: Yes, it does.
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2020-06-12T18:18:05Z erkin: Because infix notation allows only two arguments: 1 + 1
2020-06-12T18:18:16Z erkin: vs (+ 1 1 1 1 1 1 1)
2020-06-12T18:18:51Z [rg]: prefix notation must be related to currying then
2020-06-12T18:19:07Z erkin: Not at all.
2020-06-12T18:19:18Z erkin: It's just a function with an arbitrary number of possibly arguments.
2020-06-12T18:19:46Z erkin: They're handled as lists in Lisp.
2020-06-12T18:20:34Z erkin: Currying is trivial but it wouldn't give you arbitrarily long arglists.
2020-06-12T18:21:55Z erkin: Adds two: ((λ (a b) (+ a b)) 1 1)  Curried: (((λ (a) (λ (b) (+ a b))) 1) 1)  n-ary: ((λ args (apply + args)) 1 1 1 1)
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2020-06-12T18:24:25Z zaifir: [rg]: Currying isn't a syntactic idea.  You can curry with any representation of procedures.
2020-06-12T18:25:13Z [rg]: ok
2020-06-12T18:28:09Z zaifir: (I mean, any representation of a cartesian closed category.)
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2020-06-12T19:35:55Z [rg]: for exersize 1.5, it seems to me that normal order evaluation is shorter
2020-06-12T19:35:57Z [rg]: https://bpa.st/JSUA
2020-06-12T19:36:07Z [rg]: but that's the opposite of what sicp said
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2020-06-12T19:39:47Z zaifir: [rg]: It looks like your applicative-order version isn't quite right.
2020-06-12T19:40:32Z zaifir: [rg]: (test 0 (p)) would evaluate (p) before calling test.  (Assuming test is a procedure, of course.)
2020-06-12T19:40:48Z [rg]: yeah it is
2020-06-12T19:41:04Z [rg]: hm ok
2020-06-12T19:41:30Z [rg]: how to evaluate p? (define (p) (p))
2020-06-12T19:41:37Z [rg]: is this an emptry function?
2020-06-12T19:42:19Z zaifir: It's a valid function, it just never terminates.  And I believe that's the point.
2020-06-12T19:42:36Z zaifir: (define (p) (p)) ; == (define p (lambda () (p)))
2020-06-12T19:43:13Z [rg]: oh infinite loop
2020-06-12T19:43:20Z [rg]: wow
2020-06-12T19:43:45Z [rg]: so in application evaluation its game over
2020-06-12T19:43:46Z zaifir: So with applicative-order evaluation, (test 0 (p)) will run forever.
2020-06-12T19:43:49Z zaifir: Exactly.
2020-06-12T19:43:49Z pjb: [rg]: from the paste, we can infer that test is not a function.
2020-06-12T19:44:00Z zaifir: pjb: [rg] just said test is a procedure.
2020-06-12T19:44:33Z pjb: he's wrong.  The paste shows substitution of test into a if form where (p) is not evaluated.
2020-06-12T19:44:56Z zaifir: pjb: It's an exercise in evaluation order from SICP.
2020-06-12T19:45:26Z pjb: how difficult is it to copy the problem statements of the exercise into a pastebin?
2020-06-12T19:45:53Z [rg]: not very, I just assumed everyones read sicp and likes short pastes
2020-06-12T19:46:12Z zaifir: [rg]: Since Scheme uses applicative order, do you see why this means that `if' can't be a procedure?
2020-06-12T19:46:32Z pjb: Ok, I will abstrain to answer when I don't have sicp open in acrobat…
2020-06-12T19:46:48Z [rg]: yeah
2020-06-12T19:47:01Z [rg]: it does not evaluate according to normal rules
2020-06-12T19:47:06Z [rg]: like (define ...)
2020-06-12T19:47:40Z [rg]: pjb: I will make pastes more descriptive in the future
2020-06-12T19:47:44Z zaifir: Right, because we expect that (if #t (+ 2 2) (run-forever)) will terminate.
2020-06-12T19:48:13Z [rg]: cool :-)
2020-06-12T19:48:15Z zaifir: In Haskell, with more-or-less normal-order evaluation, if/then/else can be and indeed is a function.
2020-06-12T19:49:08Z [rg]: that means they must return a value
2020-06-12T19:49:19Z pjb: But the important point is that applicative order evaluates the innermost expressions first.
2020-06-12T19:49:28Z pjb: while the normal order evaluates the outermost expressions first.
2020-06-12T19:49:57Z pjb: So for (test 0 (p))  applicative order evaluates first 0, then (p), then (test <the result of 0> <the result of (p)>)
2020-06-12T19:50:08Z pjb: while normal order evaluates first (test 0 (p)).
2020-06-12T19:50:17Z zaifir: pjb: Not necessarily in left-to-right order, though.
2020-06-12T19:50:33Z pjb: Yes. scheme doesn't use the applicative order either, since it can evaluate the inner expressions in any order.
2020-06-12T19:52:15Z pjb: [rg]: you would have to define "shorter" for evaluations, and consider practical implementations too.
2020-06-12T19:52:59Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy seems well written.
2020-06-12T19:53:22Z [rg]: thanks
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2020-06-12T19:55:10Z zaifir: Interesting that some sources say applicative order must be innermost-leftmost, while others just require innermost.
2020-06-12T19:55:45Z pjb: well, innermost is the most important property. leftmost only matters if you have non-local exits.
2020-06-12T19:55:52Z zaifir: Right.
2020-06-12T19:56:09Z pjb: or side effects.
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2020-06-12T20:59:41Z jcowan: I think one of the subtle things that pressures Scheme programmer toward functional programming is the fact that argument order evaluation is not only unspecified but that actual implementations disagree.
2020-06-12T21:00:14Z jcowan: also returning undefined results to most mutation procedures
2020-06-12T21:00:22Z Riastradh: Does that pressure apply to C programmers to?
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2020-06-12T21:03:56Z jcowan: Less so, if at all.  A merely probabilistic claim does not imply its contrapositive.
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2020-06-12T22:56:35Z dTal: Why *do* mutation procedures return undefined?
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2020-06-12T23:01:43Z Riastradh: Which ones, and what should they return?
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2020-06-12T23:05:20Z erkin: I don't see what else they should return instead.
2020-06-12T23:06:00Z erkin: It's a procedure you call for its side-effect, not a function to compute and return a value.
2020-06-12T23:06:07Z jcowan: Oh, there are alternatives. Take set!: it could return the new value (as in C) or the old value.
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2020-06-12T23:06:31Z jcowan: And some procedures do have both values and side effects, like append!
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2020-06-12T23:06:40Z jcowan: from SRFI 1
2020-06-12T23:07:00Z erkin: My opinion is that append! should return unidentified as well.
2020-06-12T23:07:09Z erkin: But it's already set in stone.
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2020-06-12T23:27:08Z pjb: erkin: in CL, they return the last value assigned.  This let you write (setf a (setf b (setf c 0)))
2020-06-12T23:27:21Z pjb: erkin: or (+ (setf a 42) (setf b 33))
2020-06-12T23:28:05Z pjb: erkin: compare with the alternatives: (begin (set! a 0) (set! b 0) (set! c 0) 0)  (begin (set! a 42) (set! b 33) (+ a b))
2020-06-12T23:28:55Z erkin: I mean, I can see the use, but it actually feels less readable mixing the two like that.
2020-06-12T23:29:21Z erkin: I like to keep mutative operations very clearly distinct from the rest of the code.
2020-06-12T23:29:27Z pjb: what's readable, is to have definite semantics.  When things are undefined, it's more complicated.
2020-06-12T23:29:39Z pjb: You always run the risk of writing an expression with undefined behavior.
2020-06-12T23:29:57Z erkin: Well, I also think 'undefined value' should *be* a value. I really like the way Racket does it with `void'.
2020-06-12T23:31:17Z erkin: I keep (define (void . fnord) (if #f 'fnord)) in my preamble so that I can do (void (foo! bar)) at the tail of a procedure to make sure that no real value is returned.
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2020-06-13T05:50:09Z jcowan: erkin: That's one choice a Scheme can make, to use a void value.  If performance is what matters, it can be whatever trash is returning from a C or assembler routine.  There are lots of other possibilities.
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2020-06-13T07:22:16Z amerigo: https://pastebin.com/bYGQcAk9
2020-06-13T07:22:50Z amerigo: what does the last sentence mean?
2020-06-13T07:23:44Z amerigo: (it comes from Syntactic Abstraction: The syntax-case Expander by Kent Dybvig)
2020-06-13T07:27:43Z amerigo: how would that expression look without the macro "apparently violating lexical scoping"?
2020-06-13T07:27:46Z amerigo: I don't get it
2020-06-13T07:28:28Z wasamasa: letrec has different semantics from let
2020-06-13T07:28:43Z wasamasa: that's probably what Dybvig is getting at
2020-06-13T07:32:49Z weinholt: amerigo, if you replaced e with an expression that referred to x then it would refer to the wrong x in the letrec version
2020-06-13T07:34:17Z amerigo: ok thanks, now I see it
2020-06-13T07:35:47Z amerigo: good saturday to everybody :)
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2020-06-13T16:18:01Z erkin: What was the name of the SRFI that let you do (letrec (((foo bar baz) (+ bar baz))) ...) instead of (letrec ((foo (λ (bar baz) (+ bar baz)))) ...)?
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2020-06-13T16:20:50Z erkin: jcowan: Is it really that costly to discard the garbage value and return a void one?
2020-06-13T16:21:07Z erkin: Putting aside the "return a useful value" strategy.
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2020-06-13T16:32:10Z erkin: By the way, how does this new magic(5) file looks? There are some problems in the offset column because I don't fully grok the format yet.)
2020-06-13T16:32:11Z erkin: https://clbin.com/PHHsF
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2020-06-13T18:20:54Z poww0wmus1c: When would you use multiple return values in Scheme? For example, right now I can choose to either return 2 values as a list or as multiple values. I've never worked with multiple return values before.
2020-06-13T18:23:04Z Riastradh: Usually when it's a fixed number of things that you're returning, and it's the individual things rather than a list of them as a collection that's of interest to the caller.
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2020-06-13T18:23:36Z Riastradh: For example, suppose you have a routine to compute integer division -- given a divisor n and a dividend d, you want to know a quotient q and a remainder r such that n = d*q + r.
2020-06-13T18:23:56Z Riastradh: The integer division routine might reasonably take n and d as parameters, and return q and r as multiple values.
2020-06-13T18:24:23Z poww0wmus1c: I see, that makes sense. Thanks!
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2020-06-13T18:54:11Z erkin: poww0wmus1c: Another good example is how `tcp-connect' in Racket returns both input and output ports.
2020-06-13T18:54:27Z erkin: So you can do (define-values (in out) (tcp-connect "example.org" 80))
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2020-06-13T20:05:16Z poww0wmus1c: erkin: I see, nice
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2020-06-13T21:03:52Z jcowan: erkin: no, probably not, but it's not clear that we want *every* Scheme to work this way.
2020-06-13T21:05:50Z erkin: Of course
2020-06-13T21:06:02Z erkin: I'm just opinionated. :-P
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2020-06-13T21:06:53Z jcowan: "A standard is a contract between users and implementers."
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2020-06-13T22:20:07Z jcowan: I'm trying to figure out what to do in my Maybe/Either SRFI when extracting the values from the Maybe or Either using maybe-ref or either-ref.  The extractor takes two continuations, one for success and one for failure.  The default success continuation is `values`, so that I get back the contents of the container (as multiple values if it contains multiple objects).
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2020-06-13T22:23:20Z jcowan: But what should the default failure continuation be?  In list-ref, vector-ref, etc. In hash-table-ref, omitting the failure continuation means it is an error (undefined behavior).  Is that what I should do here?  Or should I signal an error?  And if so, should I have a predicate and extractors to detect and inspect the condition object?
2020-06-13T22:23:45Z Riastradh: (case x ((nothing) ...) ((just x) ...))
2020-06-13T22:24:20Z zaifir: jcowan: I thought the solution for maybe-ref was to raise an object satisfying `maybe-ref-error?'  Not so good?
2020-06-13T22:24:48Z jcowan: That was the last draft, certainly.  But I'm beginning to feel it is overspecified.
2020-06-13T22:25:47Z zaifir: And there's not currently any good default solution for multiple-values Lefts.
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2020-06-13T22:26:15Z zaifir: s/multiple-values/multiple-value/
2020-06-13T22:27:24Z jcowan: right, I mean, correct.
2020-06-13T22:27:59Z jcowan: Kermit: "Bear right."  Fozzie: "Left, frog."
2020-06-13T22:29:28Z jcowan: I am feeling like Painted Jaguar:  <http://www.boop.org/jan/justso/armadil.htm>
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2020-06-13T22:37:36Z jcowan: Another possibility is simply to require a failure continuation in all cases.
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2020-06-13T22:39:02Z jcowan: i.e. if you want to get the good values out, you have to say what to do if the container has bad values instead.
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2020-06-13T23:14:52Z zaifir: Which would leave it open for implementations to provide their own semantics for maybe / either-ref without failure continuations.
2020-06-13T23:17:37Z zaifir: (I assume that would be a legal extension.)
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2020-06-13T23:34:14Z jcowan: Yes.
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2020-06-14T15:16:57Z msiism: So, if you'd want to develop a program with GUI in Scheme, what are good ways to go about this?
2020-06-14T15:20:04Z wasamasa: your best bet is learning racket
2020-06-14T15:20:29Z msiism: I was already afraid of that being the case…
2020-06-14T15:20:34Z zaifir: msiism: If you know what GUI implementation you want to use, you could start by comparing the Scheme implementations that support it.
2020-06-14T15:21:07Z msiism: zaifir: Okay, that's an idea too. I think I kind of like Tk.
2020-06-14T15:21:15Z wasamasa: so try pstk
2020-06-14T15:21:33Z zaifir: msiism: Yeah, you'll have several options with something reasonably sane like that.
2020-06-14T15:22:53Z msiism: wasamasa: Thanks.
2020-06-14T15:23:13Z wasamasa: pstk should be reasonably easy to get going on a scheme with process control
2020-06-14T15:25:02Z msiism: The Scheme readily available on systems I use currently (GNU+Linux) is GNU Guile. I don't know if it has process control, though.
2020-06-14T15:25:28Z zaifir: It's got to.
2020-06-14T15:25:47Z msiism: Good.
2020-06-14T15:26:04Z zaifir: It's a component of The GNU Slash Linux Operating System!
2020-06-14T15:28:41Z zaifir: Apparently PS/Tk runs on Guile http://mirror.informatimago.com/scheme/www.t3x.org/pstk/index.html
2020-06-14T15:29:04Z zaifir: Wow, I didn't know that was by Nils of s9fes fame.
2020-06-14T15:29:25Z msiism: OK, great.
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2020-06-14T15:55:52Z wasamasa: I know it from CHICKEN where it's an official egg
2020-06-14T16:03:01Z msiism: Yeah, I don't really understand what Chicken is, though.
2020-06-14T16:04:17Z wasamasa: one of the more popular scheme implementations
2020-06-14T16:05:07Z msiism: Oh, I see. Getting the impression that Scheme is a bit like the Bourne shell family…
2020-06-14T16:05:51Z zaifir: Only in the sense that there are a number of implementations, often with incompatible extensions.
2020-06-14T16:06:02Z msiism: Right, that's what I meant.
2020-06-14T16:07:20Z zaifir: Thankfully, we don't have idioms like (equal? (string-append foo "q") "yesq")
2020-06-14T16:08:15Z msiism: You don't?
2020-06-14T16:09:53Z wasamasa: that's an old sh trick
2020-06-14T16:10:56Z msiism: ‘I see.’
2020-06-14T16:11:24Z wasamasa: if you see it in a bash script, run
2020-06-14T16:11:38Z Riastradh: if you see a bash script, run
2020-06-14T16:11:54Z msiism: Riastradh: I was about to say that… But then, well…
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2020-06-14T16:15:22Z zaifir: wasamasa: It's the only way to test strings portably in sh.  If you *don't* see that in a script that uses /bin/sh, burn the script!
2020-06-14T16:15:25Z wasamasa: here's the prettiest pstk program: https://bintracker.org/
2020-06-14T16:16:14Z msiism: Oh, nice.
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2020-06-14T16:38:14Z jcowan is confused.  Why do you have to add a character to make a comparison in bash?  I think you just have to be sure that both arguments are quoted.
2020-06-14T16:39:54Z msiism: Fair point.
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2020-06-14T16:49:24Z zaifir: The problem is that sh doesn't reparses after expansion, so the distinction between "" and (no arguments) is lost.  'test $foo -eq "yes"' expands to 'test -eq "yes"' if $foo is empty, and you get an error (probably).
2020-06-14T16:49:55Z zaifir: Ugh, s/doesn't //
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2020-06-14T16:50:50Z msiism: Last time I checked '-eq' was for comparing integers.
2020-06-14T16:52:22Z msiism: zaifir: Also, you'd say "$foo" and not get an error.
2020-06-14T16:52:23Z jcowan: It needs to be 'test "$foo" = "yes"'
2020-06-14T16:52:31Z zaifir: Oh, derp.  test "$foo" = "yes"
2020-06-14T16:52:50Z jcowan: aka "be sure that both arguments are quoted"
2020-06-14T16:52:57Z jcowan does a victory dance
2020-06-14T16:52:59Z zaifir: Right, because nothing screams "string comparison" like = (and not "-eq") ...
2020-06-14T16:53:36Z jcowan: Remember that the Bourne shell comes from Algol 68, where = was always comparison (of any types)
2020-06-14T16:54:30Z zaifir: Yeah, quoting fixes it in most modern shs, it seems.
2020-06-14T16:54:55Z msiism: zaifir: As the saying goes, "Quote every substitution". Usually abbreviated QEFS, for whatever reason.
2020-06-14T16:55:31Z jcowan: "Quote every fine substitution", I suppose
2020-06-14T16:55:33Z zaifir: Hah.
2020-06-14T16:55:46Z msiism: jcowan: Probably then, yes. Surely that.
2020-06-14T16:55:48Z zaifir: As Olin and Tom Duff opine, sh is not good.
2020-06-14T16:55:58Z jcowan: Scsh FTW.
2020-06-14T16:56:28Z zaifir: Yeah.  rc(1)'s not bad, either.
2020-06-14T16:56:42Z msiism: zaifir: Yeah that seems really neat.
2020-06-14T16:57:15Z msiism: In Scsh, do you have to put parentheses exactly like in Scheme?
2020-06-14T16:57:16Z zaifir: But rc is, at heart, just sh with lists.
2020-06-14T16:57:20Z mario-goulart: Does anybody use es?
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2020-06-14T16:57:29Z msiism: zaifir: Well, and better syntax.
2020-06-14T16:58:01Z mario-goulart: I mean http://wryun.github.io/es-shell/
2020-06-14T16:58:07Z zaifir: msiism: Oh right, it has an actual grammar!  Unlike the mysterious sh, for many decades.
2020-06-14T16:58:12Z jcowan: msiism: Yes, scsh is a Scheme library
2020-06-14T16:58:41Z msiism: jcowan: Hm… that kind of makes things a bit cumbersome to use as a shell language, I think.
2020-06-14T16:58:46Z jcowan: It was never meant for interactve use.
2020-06-14T16:58:51Z msiism: Oh…
2020-06-14T16:59:35Z jcowan: At one point I started messing around with a hybrid of rc and Lua
2020-06-14T16:59:37Z zaifir: There was an interactive layer, though, right?
2020-06-14T16:59:52Z jcowan: Only in the sense that the REPL is an interactive layer.
2020-06-14T17:00:40Z jcowan: I got as far as merging the grammars and figuring out some semantic fundamentals, but never wrote any code
2020-06-14T17:00:46Z msiism: mario-goulart: I'm just following its development on Guithub.
2020-06-14T17:01:13Z msiism: GitHub, I mean.
2020-06-14T17:03:29Z msiism: The thing with most alternative shells though is that they lack programmable completion, in my experience. And that's actually quite an essential feature.
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2020-06-14T17:03:50Z zaifir: Meh.  We have fingers and keyboards.
2020-06-14T17:04:03Z jcowan: I'm okay with just command and file completion, actually
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2020-06-14T17:04:26Z jcowan: Every feature you use is "essential", just as all computers slower than the fastest one you have ever used are "too slow".
2020-06-14T17:04:42Z zaifir: "We are also considering a display-oriented interactive shell, to be created by merging the edwin screen editor and scsh." --Olin in the scsh manual
2020-06-14T17:05:05Z zaifir: I suppose that never came to fruition, but I could swear Olin wrote an update on that idea somewhere.
2020-06-14T17:05:09Z jcowan: If anything ever came of that, it never escaped MIT
2020-06-14T17:05:20Z msiism: Okay, it's an essential feature to me, I stand corrected.
2020-06-14T17:06:26Z msiism: For example, I use a script to bookmark directories in the shell. That then needs to complete based on bookmark names. Also, programmable completion is sued to facilitate completion git sub-commands in Bash, as far as I recall.
2020-06-14T17:06:38Z msiism: s/sued/used ;)
2020-06-14T17:07:07Z zaifir: msiism: Yes, it is a lot of work to type 'commit' ;)
2020-06-14T17:07:45Z jcowan: IWBNI git-log worked as well as git log
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2020-06-14T17:09:10Z msiism: zaifir: In fact, I bleieve it is. If it can be made easier, why go for the harder way?
2020-06-14T17:09:52Z msiism: Also, saner command-line interfaces (commands with sub-commands) becoming more common, this really is a neat feature to speed things up.
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2020-06-14T17:09:57Z jcowan: That way leads to APL
2020-06-14T17:09:59Z zaifir: msiism: I think the crazy mess that is readline+bash counts as "the harder way", but it's of course a matter of perspective.
2020-06-14T17:10:13Z jcowan: I use csh-style ! commands much of the time
2020-06-14T17:10:39Z jcowan: especially !!, !foo, !?foo, !foo:p, and ^foo^bar
2020-06-14T17:10:53Z msiism: zaifir: Not from a user's perspective, in my experience. Eventhough writing Bash completion scripts is a bit of a pain, but it's doable.
2020-06-14T17:10:58Z jcowan: also !$ to repeat the last arg of the last command
2020-06-14T17:11:48Z msiism: jcowan: Wow. Well, the thing with Tab-completion is that it's a no-brainer.
2020-06-14T17:12:41Z zaifir: msiism: I try to run simple software that I can understand, except where a complicated mess is needed as a means to an end.
2020-06-14T17:13:19Z msiism: I have given up on the understanding part because you can't follow through on that anyway.
2020-06-14T17:13:29Z zaifir: msiism: I can't understand the implementation of bash, so I'd rather avoid it.  I can figure out busybox ash code, even if it sucks.
2020-06-14T17:13:51Z msiism: zaifir: Well, what Web browser are you useing then?
2020-06-14T17:14:55Z zaifir: msiism: I try to use links as much as possible, but, of course, firefox is somewhat unavoidable if one wants to use crappy bank, etc. sites.
2020-06-14T17:15:10Z zaifir: The web is a giant dumpster fire.
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2020-06-14T17:16:33Z zaifir: msiism: I'm not saying it's feasible or worthwhile to try to understand every piece of software you run.  But I do find that preferring simpler software leads to a clearer overview of the system.
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2020-06-14T17:19:03Z zaifir: jcowan: I'm not confident that I know how to implement exception->either.  There are subtleties of guard that I don't have a full grasp on, either.
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2020-06-14T17:21:43Z wasamasa: you missed absolutely nothing
2020-06-14T17:21:54Z msiism: Thanks.
2020-06-14T17:29:46Z jcowan: zaifir: Yes, it's very messy.  I'd leave it out for now, and I'll probably pull exception->either altogether from the next (hopefully last) draft.
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2020-06-14T17:30:45Z jcowan: guard is too high-level; with-exception-handler is too low-level.
2020-06-14T17:31:05Z zaifir: jcowan: Right.
2020-06-14T17:31:31Z jcowan: I wish R6RS had gone with something closer to CL's handler-bind and handler-case
2020-06-14T17:33:00Z jcowan: in handler-bind, when the handler returns it means "try the next handler", and the only way to get back to the exception-raiser is for all handlers to refuse
2020-06-14T17:33:04Z jcowan: handler-case is more like guard
2020-06-14T17:33:34Z jcowan: (There is also the restart system, which allows a handler a way to get back to the raiser and tell it what to do.
2020-06-14T17:33:36Z jcowan: )
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2020-06-15T00:47:46Z foof`: jcowan: the other reason, still valid in modern bash, is if the variable expands to a valid test comparator.
2020-06-15T00:48:46Z foof`: in 'if [ "$x" == "foo" ]; then ... fi', if $x expands to -n, the meaning of the test is ambiguous.
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2020-06-15T00:49:30Z foof`: so the convention is a prefix: '[ "x$x" == "xfoo" ]'
2020-06-15T00:49:41Z foof`: the suffixing used above doesn't help with this
2020-06-15T00:56:56Z Riastradh: % bash -c 'x="-z"; if [ "$x" == "-z" ]; then echo equal; else echo not empty; fi'
2020-06-15T00:56:59Z Riastradh: equal
2020-06-15T00:58:16Z jcowan nods
2020-06-15T00:58:26Z jcowan: Thanks. That makes sense (insofar as bash makes sense at all)
2020-06-15T00:58:49Z jcowan: My Lua+rc design worked out pretty well on paper, except I never figured out how to handle command substitution.
2020-06-15T00:59:58Z jcowan: The general idea is that {{...}} is a command written in Lua (there is a mapping from Lua values to exit values so that && and || work correctly).
2020-06-15T01:00:01Z Riastradh: (my example shows that this isn't true -- it doesn't get confused)
2020-06-15T01:00:37Z jcowan: And ${{...}} is a Lua expression whose value as a string is inserted into a command
2020-06-15T01:00:44Z jcowan: (without further expansion, per rc's rules)
2020-06-15T01:02:54Z jcowan: Lua's global variables, rc' variables, and the environment are all the same.
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2020-06-15T01:57:03Z foof`: Actually it's not bash, it's the version of test you're using.
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2020-06-15T01:57:46Z foof`: I wonder if there are any versions in widespread use that still get confused?
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2020-06-15T17:14:26Z Hael: Hi, i have a noob question about scheme, iam reading SICP and i was
2020-06-15T17:14:27Z Hael: wondering if it is possible (i mean there is a library or something) to
2020-06-15T17:14:27Z Hael: use scheme for backend web development?
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2020-06-15T17:17:06Z rain1: it is possible
2020-06-15T17:18:26Z Hael: could you point me in the right direction?
2020-06-15T17:22:39Z gwatt: Hael: the available libraries are heavily dependent upon your scheme of choice.
2020-06-15T17:28:31Z Hael: I understand, I do not believe that it will be possible to use one of these in my current development environment since I am using racket with an extension to study the sicp book for now, but I am happy to know that there is a possibility I will continue studying and when I am more prepared I will look for more about it, sorry for anything I am new
2020-06-15T17:28:31Z Hael: both in the scheme world and in irc.
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2020-06-15T17:33:43Z Vidjuheffex: Racket can be used for backend web stuff and has documentation for that. Good luck with your learning!
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2020-06-15T18:27:20Z msiism: I wonder, is there any operating system written in Scheme?
2020-06-15T18:27:44Z mdhughes: CHICKEN also has the "awful" egg, which isn't awful.
2020-06-15T18:27:55Z zig: msiism: /join #loko
2020-06-15T18:28:20Z zig: msiism: I had something to say about your question about gui yesterday
2020-06-15T18:28:21Z wasamasa: mdhughes: I wouldn't be so sure
2020-06-15T18:28:29Z wasamasa: mdhughes: it took me five minutes to find a bug
2020-06-15T18:28:53Z mdhughes: And it really isn't hard to write a web server in any of them, there's network server examples for most.
2020-06-15T18:29:18Z msiism: zig: Oh, okay, I'm listening.
2020-06-15T18:30:46Z zig: msiism: most of my experience is in guile, but I moving away from guile. Anway, there is two project that wants to support GTK libs and guile-gnome that is working, see https://www.gnu.org/software/foliot/screenshots.html
2020-06-15T18:30:54Z mdhughes: wasamasa: I've stood up an awful server, seemed fine for my uses, but I wasn't stress-testing it.
2020-06-15T18:31:18Z wasamasa: the serving part is handled by spiffy :D
2020-06-15T18:31:32Z zig: msiism: related to Hael question, on webdev, there is also guile web server.
2020-06-15T18:31:45Z wasamasa: I'm referring to framework-specific things, like handling configuration correctly
2020-06-15T18:31:59Z zig: msiism: there is also chicken, see https://bintracker.org/
2020-06-15T18:32:18Z wasamasa: dreamscheme/os is a thing
2020-06-15T18:32:33Z zig: msiism: do you look for a desktop application or a web application?
2020-06-15T18:32:49Z msiism: zig: Okay, good to know (about GTK). However, I'm kind of inclined not to use GTK because of the development practices seen in the transition betwen GTK2 and GTK3.
2020-06-15T18:33:23Z msiism: zig: Hm… I'm not actually looking for any particular ind of application. Or, maybe I don't understand the question.
2020-06-15T18:33:30Z msiism: s/ind/kind
2020-06-15T18:33:33Z erkin: If you write a GUI app in Racket, it simultaneously works with GTK 3 and GTK 2.
2020-06-15T18:33:58Z erkin: If your system has GTK 3, it uses that (unless you set a specific flag to force GTK 2), otherwise it uses GTK 2.
2020-06-15T18:34:11Z msiism: I see.
2020-06-15T18:35:01Z zig: msiism: look into bintracker.org, it is done in chicken scheme and it looks very good.
2020-06-15T18:35:29Z msiism: zig: Right, it uses pstk, I learned yesterday.
2020-06-15T18:36:01Z zig: msiism: are you familiar with the gnome-introspection thing?
2020-06-15T18:36:18Z msiism: zig: Not at all. I have only every used Tk and only from Tcl.
2020-06-15T18:37:08Z zig: msiism: ok, gnome-introspection is supposed to ease maybe automatically generate nice bindings in another language than C. It works with Python. They have something similar in Qt.
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2020-06-15T18:38:46Z zig: I am not familiar with Tk or Tcl.
2020-06-15T18:39:04Z zig: msiism: what is your scheme of choice ?
2020-06-15T18:39:09Z zaifir: It might be reasonable to wrap it in Chibi or CHICKEN.
2020-06-15T18:39:41Z erkin: There's a Tk egg for CHICKEN, isn't there?
2020-06-15T18:39:48Z wasamasa: pstk is the recommended choice
2020-06-15T18:39:53Z msiism: zig: None yet, really. I have Guile on my system, and also Racket because I started out looking into tat and then decided to learn standard Scheme instead.
2020-06-15T18:40:17Z wasamasa: there's a now-deprecated variation of it in the coop
2020-06-15T18:41:01Z wasamasa: other approaches you might want to try is binding to tk's C API (why though) or writing the thing in tcl and communicating with a scheme program (see the feathers debugger and ma text editor)
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2020-06-15T18:41:20Z zig: msiism: Like I said, I moving away from guile, but it has many nice things, like web dev is possible and not as far fetched as racket (imo).
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2020-06-15T18:41:29Z msiism: zig: Tk is Tcl's "native" GUI toolkit. It's relatively small and "looks ugly"(TM).
2020-06-15T18:41:54Z zig: msiism: it is also the native toolkit in python, but I never used it :)
2020-06-15T18:41:56Z wasamasa: with some effort you can fix that, mostly by embracing color palette and icons
2020-06-15T18:42:27Z msiism: zig: So, what Scheme do you use then, or transition to?
2020-06-15T18:42:36Z zaifir: msiism: It's so much smaller and saner than GTK+ or Qt, though.
2020-06-15T18:43:01Z wasamasa: bintracker is the best example of that I've seen
2020-06-15T18:43:17Z msiism: wasamasa: Well, I personally actually kind of like the looks of Tk, not necessarily the default theme, but that other one, called "alt", I think.
2020-06-15T18:43:41Z msiism: zaifir: Yeah, that's what I've been told and I can make some sense of that statement.
2020-06-15T18:43:43Z zig: msiism: I creating a layer on top of Chez to have mostly r7rs compliant... but well, I am not at the point where I can say, come and use it... because many pieces are missing for doing basic stuff. Like even a hello world web app, is not possible anymore.
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2020-06-15T18:44:08Z zig: (because I lost the code of the web server :/)
2020-06-15T18:44:13Z msiism: What's a hello world web app?
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2020-06-15T18:44:39Z zig: curl http://127.0.0.1:8000 would print hello in html.
2020-06-15T18:44:53Z zig: probably chicken can do it tho
2020-06-15T18:45:23Z zig: the only problem, with chicken is that it seems to require some Makefile knowledge, to get together the app.
2020-06-15T18:45:50Z wasamasa: not really, you can use chicken-install as build tool for basic stuff
2020-06-15T18:46:40Z zig: maybe... I got a different answer last time I asked on #chicken
2020-06-15T18:46:58Z zaifir: chicken-install generally works fine, IME.
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2020-06-15T18:47:26Z zig: what would yield 'chicken-install my-web-app.scm'?
2020-06-15T18:47:29Z msiism: Well, thing I have on my personal coding projects list are, a reimplementation of my note-taking program in a sane language and with a CLI and a GUI, a browser-independen bookmark manager with the same.
2020-06-15T18:47:44Z zaifir: Of course, make(1) knowledge is worth acquiring in any case.
2020-06-15T18:47:53Z zig: zaifir: I agree
2020-06-15T18:48:08Z zaifir: zig: What is that command supposed to do?
2020-06-15T18:48:22Z zig: zaifir: run the web app or generate an executable
2020-06-15T18:49:23Z zig: the ideal case would be compile, then run.
2020-06-15T18:49:23Z zaifir: zig: Wouldn't you just run `csc my-web-app.scm' (or csi) in that case?
2020-06-15T18:49:52Z zig: zaifir: yeah, that is what I was said, but I need to csc every dependency? or is that mis-understanding?
2020-06-15T18:50:17Z wasamasa: you write a .egg file declaring your project structure, then run `chicken-install` in that directory
2020-06-15T18:50:29Z zig: wasamasa: that is new to me.
2020-06-15T18:50:36Z zaifir: zig: csc resolves imports correctly, assuming they're in the searched dirs.
2020-06-15T18:50:40Z wasamasa: yes, it's a new feature in version 5
2020-06-15T18:50:50Z zig: that is nice.
2020-06-15T18:51:05Z wasamasa: it's not omniscient though and weak for anything more complicated
2020-06-15T18:51:06Z zaifir: CHICKEN is ... wandering toward R7RS.
2020-06-15T18:51:08Z zig: wasamasa: and it is ready to ship in the shared repo?
2020-06-15T18:51:25Z bitmapper: i'd like to see chicken with R7RS
2020-06-15T18:51:29Z wasamasa: it is already released
2020-06-15T18:51:51Z zig: I mean my project with egg, could possibly land in the shared repo?
2020-06-15T18:51:52Z wasamasa: here's an example: https://depp.brause.cc/tools/tools.egg
2020-06-15T18:52:01Z zaifir: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/r7rs
2020-06-15T18:52:03Z bitmapper: i wanted to use mit scheme for more stuff but the lack of syntax-case completely ruined that
2020-06-15T18:52:24Z zaifir: Some things aren't implemented, and I noticed recently that the cond-expand (library ..) form is broken.
2020-06-15T18:52:48Z zig: msiism: as you can see, there is not silver bullet :)
2020-06-15T18:53:05Z wasamasa: zaifir: sounds like a reason for further investigation
2020-06-15T18:53:20Z wasamasa: zaifir: with Riastradh around it surely can be fixed
2020-06-15T18:53:28Z zaifir: wasamasa: https://bugs.call-cc.org/ticket/1697#ticket
2020-06-15T18:53:34Z msiism: zig: Yeah, I don't expect anything to be straight-forward in IT, so no worries.
2020-06-15T18:53:46Z zaifir: It's some ancient CHICKEN 4 code lying around in the cond-expand code.
2020-06-15T18:53:47Z wasamasa: oh, I thought you mean mit-scheme
2020-06-15T18:54:04Z zaifir: Hah, no.
2020-06-15T18:54:19Z wasamasa: I guess someone overlooked it during the port to version 5
2020-06-15T18:54:20Z zaifir: I don't know much about MIT's R7 support.
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2020-06-15T18:54:39Z zig: msiism: but that is part of the fun, I learned so much since I started looking into standard scheme and using it.
2020-06-15T18:57:23Z msiism: zig: Yeah, my plan is to get good knowledge of Scheme, step by step. It's what I've arrived at after more than two years of an odyssey to find a sane programming language.
2020-06-15T18:58:45Z bitmapper: is there a specific irc for mit-scheme
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2020-06-15T19:00:15Z zig: msiism: what lead you to scheme? outside tcl, what is your primary languages?
2020-06-15T19:00:57Z wasamasa: zaifir: anyway, I've looked at the code and have an idea how to fix it
2020-06-15T19:01:04Z bitmapper: zaifir: mit-scheme supports r7rs iirc
2020-06-15T19:01:15Z bitmapper: is syntax-case part of r7rs, not sure
2020-06-15T19:01:32Z zaifir: bitmapper: Not r7rs-small, but hopefully r7rs-large, someday.
2020-06-15T19:01:50Z bitmapper: :(
2020-06-15T19:02:08Z bitmapper: it means i'm stuck using an ugly implementation of define-macro
2020-06-15T19:02:21Z zaifir: wasamasa: Awesome.  It seems like an easy fix, but I don't know much about #sys## arcana.
2020-06-15T19:02:25Z bitmapper: (on mit)
2020-06-15T19:02:37Z zaifir: bitmapper: ??  Does MIT not have syntax-case?
2020-06-15T19:02:41Z bitmapper: nope
2020-06-15T19:02:44Z msiism: zig: Well, I re-entered programming getting into Bash and POSIX sh, which I still write things in, occasionally. Then I wanted to learn something less cumbersome.
2020-06-15T19:03:08Z bitmapper: the string "syntax-case" doesn't even appear in the codebase from what i can tell
2020-06-15T19:04:02Z wasamasa: zaifir: you have to figure out what the equivalent are in C5 and write some cond-expand code
2020-06-15T19:04:09Z msiism: zig: I looked at Python, didn't like it, spent some time with Tcl until I got too annoyed by its flaws, peeked at Lua, really tried some C and failed miserably.
2020-06-15T19:04:23Z zaifir: bitmapper: Ah, I see.  Well, it does seem to provide ER and syntactic closures, which are both fine.
2020-06-15T19:04:31Z zaifir: wasamasa: Right.
2020-06-15T19:04:49Z bitmapper: i wonder if it'd be possible to implement syntax-case
2020-06-15T19:04:56Z msiism: zig: So, in despair, I thought: There's also Lisp, and I've heard about Scheme, let's try that. I have nothing to lose.
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2020-06-15T19:05:37Z zaifir: wasamasa: Actually, I fixed it in my local CHICKEN by using scsh-process to call `chicken-status -list' and vaccuum up the output list.  Quite brilliant, if I say so myself. :D
2020-06-15T19:06:17Z ebrasca: Do you know some operating system writen scheme lisp?
2020-06-15T19:06:30Z bitmapper: i mean
2020-06-15T19:06:35Z bitmapper: loko scheme runs on bare metal
2020-06-15T19:06:40Z ebrasca: I know about Mezzano ( writen in Common Lisp )
2020-06-15T19:06:46Z bitmapper: it has drivers for most things
2020-06-15T19:06:57Z bitmapper: but it's not really an operating system in the regular sense, just a repl
2020-06-15T19:07:43Z ebrasca: bitmapper: Does it have text editor?
2020-06-15T19:07:45Z zaifir: loko looks like the 9front of the Scheme world...
2020-06-15T19:07:50Z bitmapper: i don't think so
2020-06-15T19:07:57Z bitmapper: zaifir: haha not quite
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2020-06-15T19:08:52Z gwatt: bitmapper: loko scheme is also less than a year old and largely worked on by a single person. It certainly looks like he wants to turn it into an OS
2020-06-15T19:09:05Z bitmapper: i wasn't trying to minimize it!
2020-06-15T19:09:11Z gwatt: fair enough
2020-06-15T19:09:16Z bitmapper: i was just saying that so he didn't expect something like mezzano
2020-06-15T19:09:22Z bitmapper: it's an awesome project
2020-06-15T19:09:32Z ebrasca: Mezzano is too mostly writen by 1 person.
2020-06-15T19:09:44Z bitmapper: it's been worked on for a lot longer though
2020-06-15T19:12:08Z zig: msiism: it is a hobby or you do profesionnaly? Do you aim to do it profesionnaly?
2020-06-15T19:12:35Z msiism: zig: I'm a professional hobbyist.
2020-06-15T19:12:43Z zig: msiism: :)
2020-06-15T19:12:53Z zig: msiism: so you do both?
2020-06-15T19:13:20Z msiism: zig: No, just free-time programming, really, without any formal training.
2020-06-15T19:13:28Z zig: msiism: !
2020-06-15T19:13:38Z zaifir: msiism: "amateur", a lover of something, is still the best word, IMO.
2020-06-15T19:13:52Z msiism: Okay, true.
2020-06-15T19:14:03Z msiism: I do dislike the term hobbyist somehow.
2020-06-15T19:14:12Z ebrasca: msiism: Are you main developer of loko scheme?
2020-06-15T19:14:26Z msiism: ebrasca: No, definitely not.
2020-06-15T19:14:32Z zaifir: ebrasca: weinholt's in here somewhere.
2020-06-15T19:15:17Z msiism: zig: My aim in leraning to program is mainly to be able to replace software I don't like on my desktop system. :)
2020-06-15T19:15:34Z zig: msiism: ahah like me :)
2020-06-15T19:15:34Z ebrasca: weinholt: Hi , are you here?
2020-06-15T19:15:44Z msiism: zig: Or to write things to my liking if nothing suits me.
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2020-06-15T19:22:00Z zig: msiism: that is good motivation, to get lost along the way ;-)
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2020-06-15T19:22:19Z zig: "oh this problem seems interesting, let's investigate"
2020-06-15T19:22:21Z zig: or
2020-06-15T19:22:35Z zig: "This scheme implementation has nice performance or buzz word feature"
2020-06-15T19:23:21Z zig: msiism: sorry, I forgot a word: that is good motivation, *do not* get lost along the way.
2020-06-15T19:23:43Z msiism has his reply to-be rendered meaningless
2020-06-15T19:24:36Z zig: msiism: one of the problem I have, is that I get bored, then start new project and never finish anything.
2020-06-15T19:24:55Z ebrasca: Why do you like scheme?
2020-06-15T19:25:04Z msiism: zig: Yeah, I strictly don't do that. I take notes at the maximum, then move on.
2020-06-15T19:25:07Z zig: msiism: eventually, I cycle back to some project with fresh ideas, which is a good thing.
2020-06-15T19:25:28Z zig: ebrasca: simplicity, performance and community.
2020-06-15T19:26:08Z msiism: zig: Also, I developed a new tactic for moving formward with Scheme. Whenever I get frustrated and start looking at other languages because of that, I immediately stop that and either go back to doing Scheme or do somehting entirely different.
2020-06-15T19:26:11Z zig: msiism: if you stay around, well today there is lot of talking, but usually there is less people speaking and they talk about different topics which widens the knowledge
2020-06-15T19:26:50Z msiism: So, this channel is not like ##linux then? :P
2020-06-15T19:27:01Z zig: I do not know ##linux
2020-06-15T19:27:13Z zaifir: ##linux was an incredibly busy place last I checked.
2020-06-15T19:27:26Z msiism: Well, ##linux is fine. I was just being cynical.
2020-06-15T19:28:30Z ebrasca: zig: Do you have some recomended link to read?
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2020-06-15T19:29:01Z zaifir: ebrasca: About Scheme, in general?
2020-06-15T19:29:12Z ebrasca: zaifir: Yes
2020-06-15T19:29:23Z zig: ebrasca: I like : http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2020-06-15T19:29:24Z ebrasca: zig: Do you have some comparisons with sbcl performance?
2020-06-15T19:29:54Z ebrasca: zig: I think it is Common-Lisp.
2020-06-15T19:30:07Z zig: ebrasca: and this one http://sdmeta.gforge.inria.fr/FreeBooks/BlueBookHughes/Design%20Principles%20Behind%20Smalltalk.pdf
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2020-06-15T19:30:21Z zaifir: Smalltalk?
2020-06-15T19:30:41Z zig: ebrasca: no I do not have scheme favorite reading. I like Abdul Aziz paper about incremental compiler
2020-06-15T19:30:53Z ebrasca: zig: I have read first link , I like it too.
2020-06-15T19:31:00Z zig: zaifir: it is more like the practice of designing system, it is not smalltalk specific
2020-06-15T19:31:02Z zaifir: ebrasca: It's worth read through the R7 standard, as well as the SRFIs https://srfi.schemers.org/
2020-06-15T19:31:17Z zaifir: zig: Ah.  I've heard of the book.
2020-06-15T19:31:30Z zig: ebrasca: yes, R
2020-06-15T19:31:57Z zig: +1 R7RS and go through the stdlib
2020-06-15T19:32:11Z zig: there is link somewhere in google groups working group
2020-06-15T19:32:41Z zig: ebrasca: something that suprised me when I started learning scheme, is how much the procedures index is useful.
2020-06-15T19:32:51Z zaifir: Yes.
2020-06-15T19:33:07Z zig: or go through srfi like zaifir says
2020-06-15T19:34:19Z ebrasca: I am interested in developing lisp systems. I don't know what is best lisp.
2020-06-15T19:34:35Z zaifir: It's a huge amount of reading, of course.  Maybe start with our new Red Edition PDF: http://gitlab.com/vmanis/r7rs-large/reports/red.pdf
2020-06-15T19:34:55Z zig: ebrasca: like a lisp os?
2020-06-15T19:35:03Z ebrasca: zig: Yes
2020-06-15T19:35:18Z zaifir: ebrasca: You implemented the FAT32 code for Mezzano, correct?
2020-06-15T19:35:44Z zig: ebrasca: then the above lispos.html should give some clues, but /join #loko and ask questions, also I had the same idea, but it is a very... big project.
2020-06-15T19:35:55Z ebrasca: zaifir: Yes and some other minor parts like ext2/3/4 read.
2020-06-15T19:36:05Z zaifir: ebrasca: Cool work!
2020-06-15T19:36:06Z zig: ebrasca: oh then you know already some stuff
2020-06-15T19:36:31Z zig: ebrasca: what do you think about nixos and guix?
2020-06-15T19:36:38Z ebrasca: It is fat12/16/32
2020-06-15T19:37:33Z zig: rethinking the operating system, I mean, in the sense, something that is not clone of linux, is a lot of work.
2020-06-15T19:37:45Z ebrasca: zig: I think nixos is not lisp. I think guix is interesting if you like linux systems and c.
2020-06-15T19:37:55Z zig: ebrasca: agreed.
2020-06-15T19:38:33Z zig: ebrasca: what do you think about the idea of taxonomies instead of hierarchy for organizing files and objects on disk ?
2020-06-15T19:39:09Z zig: ebrasca: how would you implement the equivalent of POSIX processus / threads ?
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2020-06-15T19:40:10Z civodul: hopefully Guix is interesting if you like Scheme, too :-)
2020-06-15T19:40:50Z ebrasca: zig: I am interested in alternatives to hierarchy FSs.
2020-06-15T19:42:24Z ebrasca: zig: I have small understanding about threads.
2020-06-15T19:42:51Z erkin: I like object stores.
2020-06-15T19:43:19Z erkin: IBM i and IBM z have object stores in place of hierarchical filesystems.
2020-06-15T19:43:28Z msiism: Well, the thing about Guix is that it requires about, what wa sit 50GB additional disk space because of how it's built and what it offers. 50GB, that's nearly 5 times the amount I assign to my whole / partition, normally.
2020-06-15T19:43:43Z zig: ebrasca: the thing is that if drop c, if you drop posix processus and threads, FS hiearchies... well it a ... brave new world ahead.
2020-06-15T19:44:16Z erkin: If you drop C, hierarchical files and POSIX, you pretty much leave behind Unix.
2020-06-15T19:44:23Z zig: yes
2020-06-15T19:45:25Z zig: also, there is always the problem of how to support different hardwares..
2020-06-15T19:45:56Z zig: almost from scratch.
2020-06-15T19:46:11Z zig: kind of what loko does.
2020-06-15T19:46:20Z ebrasca: zig: I have tried to port Mezzano to TalosII but I don't understand very good assambly.
2020-06-15T19:46:53Z zig: ebrasca: you can learn :)
2020-06-15T19:47:00Z erkin: I mean, there's no way around it: With loads of manpower.
2020-06-15T19:47:14Z erkin: That's how all OSes do it.
2020-06-15T19:47:32Z erkin: Someone needs to write and maintain device drivers.
2020-06-15T19:47:50Z erkin: The fewer hands you have, the less feasible it becomes.
2020-06-15T19:48:13Z ebrasca: zig: How? Reading only Power9 instruction set don't help me.
2020-06-15T19:48:33Z zig: ebrasca: I was hopeful, I do not know assembly..
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2020-06-15T19:49:28Z zig: I do not have a good idea of what an alternative to unix would be.
2020-06-15T19:50:15Z zig: anyway, so I am not even trying.  In the unix space, I think guix / nixos approach is the future, but much further that 5 to 10 years I see nothing.
2020-06-15T19:50:54Z zig: guix is already a bold idea.
2020-06-15T19:51:15Z zig: it more than an idea since it works.
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2020-06-15T19:53:00Z ebrasca: I am more interested in pure lisp systems.
2020-06-15T19:54:01Z zig: sure, you are speaking to the person that builds (or more accuratly want to build) full-stack scheme web apps, so I am very interested by that idea of a full lisp system.
2020-06-15T19:56:46Z ebrasca: I have run Hunchentoot on Mezzano.
2020-06-15T19:57:37Z ebrasca: zig: Have you try to run some web server on Loko Scheme?
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2020-06-15T20:09:51Z msiism: zig: Can you elaborate on that guix/nix thing being the future in the Unix space?
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2020-06-15T20:34:37Z zig: msiism: well, what distro can run two versions postgresql at the same time ?
2020-06-15T20:34:57Z zig: except docker
2020-06-15T20:35:11Z ebrasca: zig: gentoo ?
2020-06-15T20:35:31Z msiism: zig: I'd think that any Linux distro would be able to do that, actually.
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2020-06-15T20:35:46Z msiism: zig: It would just be cumbersome.
2020-06-15T20:35:47Z wasamasa: debian has support for installing several
2020-06-15T20:36:31Z zig: another one, which can have environments for different version of the same lib ?
2020-06-15T20:36:47Z zig: I mean, even if it is not shipped by the distro
2020-06-15T20:37:02Z zig: it is a oneliner or so to do it a guix
2020-06-15T20:37:16Z zig: using ubuntu I need lxc lightweight vm to do the same
2020-06-15T20:38:29Z zig: maybe, I do not know ubuntu / debian good enough, but with guix, even if it has its flaws, a lot of things are simpler.
2020-06-15T20:39:04Z zig: like I never packaged anything for debian, even for personnal use because I do not understand how it works.
2020-06-15T20:39:23Z msiism: Yeah, I see the point of that, I think. It just doesn't happen to coincide with my use case too much, as much as I'm aware.
2020-06-15T20:39:51Z msiism: zig: I've tried to understand Debian packaging and given up on it.
2020-06-15T20:40:01Z zig: well, that happens if you want to upgrade a software but still work on legacy version of that same software that has dependencies ..
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2020-06-15T20:40:42Z zig: but that are not the official selling points of guix. The main selling point, outside scheme, is the ability to rollback the system configuration.
2020-06-15T20:41:05Z msiism: I see.
2020-06-15T20:41:07Z zig: and that is not possible with debian / ubuntu.
2020-06-15T20:41:33Z ebrasca: You can have 1 config file for full system.
2020-06-15T20:41:39Z zig: yeah
2020-06-15T20:42:17Z jcowan: fwiw, syntax-case and explicit-renaming are equivalent in power and interdefinable
2020-06-15T20:43:16Z zig: msiism: the equivalent of guix environment in ubuntu is snaps, so they do not deduplicate shared libs, you end possibly with more than 50GB
2020-06-15T20:52:19Z msiism: zig: Probably, yes.
2020-06-15T20:55:02Z ebrasca: zig: Can you make guixsd to format/encrypt your disk/disks and install?
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2020-06-15T21:46:29Z msiism: ebrasca: I think that's not possible yet.
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2020-06-15T23:09:15Z ArthurStrong: Hi all! What would you recommend to read about lambda calculus? Aside of SICP?
2020-06-15T23:11:32Z erkin: It's a really broad subject, so it all depends on how deep you want to go.
2020-06-15T23:12:14Z ArthurStrong: erkin: I want to start somewhere. So, a textbook for beginner
2020-06-15T23:13:01Z erkin: I learnt the basics of untyped lambda calculus and combinatory logic through Wikipedia.
2020-06-15T23:13:08Z ArthurStrong: OK
2020-06-15T23:22:05Z zaifir: ArthurStrong: Michaelson's Intro to Functional Programming Through Lambda Calculus is good and cheap.
2020-06-15T23:22:18Z ArthurStrong: zaifir: thanks
2020-06-15T23:23:03Z zaifir: Actually, the old edition is $0 http://people.cs.aau.dk/~normark/pp-*/gjm.lambook88-3.pdf
2020-06-15T23:24:59Z zaifir: ArthurStrong: If you want a good book on just lambda calculus and are OK with a fast pace, Hindley & Seldin's book is great, if a bit tough https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/lambdacalculus-and-combinators/5E58FA156DE2129BE89BDFDCD7ECB645
2020-06-15T23:25:14Z ArthurStrong: zaifir: OIC
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2020-06-15T23:26:48Z zaifir: ArthurStrong: It depends on if you're interested in the mathematics, or would just like to understand a little about what's going on in Scheme, ML, etc.
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2020-06-15T23:29:39Z ArthurStrong: zaifir: perhaps, both
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2020-06-15T23:35:52Z zaifir: ArthurStrong: I think Michaelson's book is a good read.  You might also try the Little Schemer, if you haven't been through it yet. (And all the other Little books)
2020-06-15T23:36:27Z zaifir: And yes, as erkin points out, the Wikipedia articles on λ-calculus and combinatory logic are quite good.
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2020-06-15T23:40:59Z [rg]: in exercise 1.6 of sicp Alyssa's program fails because `sqrt-iter` subform must be evaluated?
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2020-06-15T23:41:59Z [rg]: no, that's not it
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2020-06-15T23:47:03Z [rg]: I mean, it is still being defined, so I wonder if that's ok
2020-06-15T23:52:47Z zaifir: [rg]: One sec, I'm going to read it.
2020-06-15T23:53:23Z zaifir: Ohhhhh yeah, this one.
2020-06-15T23:53:30Z [rg]: thanks, I don't want to be a bother if I can avoid it, I'm looking for an answer key rn
2020-06-15T23:54:00Z zaifir: [rg]: I think you just partially answered it.
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2020-06-15T23:55:02Z zaifir: [rg]: It indeed screws up because the recursion is evaluated; the question is why it's `new-if' that causes it to screw up.
2020-06-15T23:55:07Z [rg]: yeah, doesn't applicative evaluation mean that the arguments will be evaluated first
2020-06-15T23:55:50Z zaifir: [rg]: Exactly.
2020-06-15T23:56:10Z [rg]: ok cool :-)
2020-06-15T23:56:19Z zaifir: [rg]: This is why `if' has to be a special form.
2020-06-15T23:56:51Z [rg]: might be too early, but this is also a cause of all the qoute qausiqoute stuff
2020-06-16T00:01:13Z zaifir: That's a separate issue from evaluation order, for the most part.
2020-06-16T00:01:27Z zaifir: But it is a major reason for Scheme have macros.
2020-06-16T00:01:34Z zaifir: s/have/having/
2020-06-16T00:01:50Z [rg]: ok
2020-06-16T00:01:57Z zaifir: (Not everything can be a procedure.)
2020-06-16T00:04:18Z zaifir: Well, maybe not a "major reason".  You could solve the `new-if problem' with lazy evaluation.
2020-06-16T00:04:40Z [rg]: lazy evaluation allows recursion like that?
2020-06-16T00:05:45Z zaifir: Lazy evaluation doesn't interfere with recursion at all.
2020-06-16T00:09:08Z bitmapper: doesn't lazy evaluation aid with tco
2020-06-16T00:09:13Z zaifir: [rg]: A really simple example might be: (define (if-delayed pred-thunk then-thunk else-thunk) (cond ((predicate) (then-thunk)) (else (else-thunk))))
2020-06-16T00:09:38Z zaifir: (Assuming as SICP does some hypothetical Scheme with cond but without if)
2020-06-16T00:10:43Z zaifir: [rg]: So you call it with three zero-argument procedures instead of expressions, and it behaves as you'd expect.
2020-06-16T00:16:41Z [rg]: how is that different from new-if? lazy evaluation doesn't evaluate the new procedures unless called?
2020-06-16T00:16:52Z [rg]: in this version you make the arguments evaluate
2020-06-16T00:20:51Z erkin: Thunks aren't evaluated until called.
2020-06-16T00:21:28Z [rg]: gotcha
2020-06-16T00:24:58Z [rg]: hmm, I found the next question hard to understand , e 1.7
2020-06-16T00:25:03Z [rg]: does this make sense? https://termbin.com/f3tf
2020-06-16T00:25:39Z [rg]: I suspect they still want to check the square of guess, but that wouldn't work for large numbers
2020-06-16T00:25:44Z [rg]: I think
2020-06-16T00:26:24Z [rg]: the current tolerance also excludes smaller numbers
2020-06-16T00:27:16Z [rg]: it's either that they want, or to compare it to an older value of guess
2020-06-16T00:28:51Z erkin: Don't you think that (or (< x y) (>= x y)) always evaluates to #t?
2020-06-16T00:31:43Z [rg]: ah yeah
2020-06-16T00:31:48Z [rg] facepalm
2020-06-16T00:32:02Z erkin: Happens :-)
2020-06-16T00:33:49Z Riastradh: erkin: nope
2020-06-16T00:33:54Z erkin: shh
2020-06-16T00:34:20Z erkin: Given x and y are number?.
2020-06-16T00:34:36Z Riastradh: (number? x)
2020-06-16T00:34:36Z Riastradh: ;Value: #t
2020-06-16T00:34:36Z Riastradh: (number? y)
2020-06-16T00:34:36Z Riastradh: ;Value: #t
2020-06-16T00:34:36Z Riastradh: (or (< x y) (>= x y))
2020-06-16T00:34:39Z Riastradh: ;Value: #f
2020-06-16T00:34:43Z Riastradh: (list x y)
2020-06-16T00:34:43Z Riastradh: ;Value: (+nan.0 1.23)
2020-06-16T00:34:47Z erkin: Oh come on
2020-06-16T00:35:02Z erkin: I should've said number instead of number? since nan is not a number.
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2020-06-16T01:04:17Z zaifir: Well, SICP knows naught of NaNs.
2020-06-16T01:12:29Z Riastradh: well maybe it ought
2020-06-16T01:12:47Z Riastradh: (when it was first written, IEEE 754 was not out yet)
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2020-06-16T14:38:59Z rain1: https://notebooks.gesis.org/binder/jupyter/user/calysto-calysto_scheme-o4vaj2pl/notebooks/notebooks/Reference%20Guide%20for%20Calysto%20Scheme.ipynb
2020-06-16T14:39:00Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/OybrDLDBYC
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2020-06-16T15:07:36Z amirouche: 403 forbidden
2020-06-16T15:08:15Z wasamasa: ohno
2020-06-16T15:11:31Z amirouche: " Calysto Scheme supports: produces stack trace (with line numbers), like Python " https://github.com/Calysto/calysto_scheme
2020-06-16T15:12:34Z wasamasa: the big question is, does it have screwed up scoping like python
2020-06-16T15:13:02Z wasamasa: because hy does
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2020-06-16T20:02:22Z bitmapper: i wish sagittarius had a compiler
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2020-06-16T20:39:27Z bitmapper: oh psyntax still works on mit-scheme
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2020-06-17T14:04:22Z siraben: λα λα λα
2020-06-17T14:14:46Z foof: ラ ラ ラ
2020-06-17T14:17:28Z siraben: ลาลาลา
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2020-06-17T19:47:28Z jcowan: zzz zzz zzzzzz
2020-06-17T19:47:55Z jcowan: (not snores, but talking with teeth clenched)
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2020-06-17T20:20:42Z 
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: ccl-logbot muelleme_ emacsoma1 gnomon_ ohama ArthurSt1ong choas_ dozzie_ akkad_ copec xlei mario-go` lloda` nerdypep- dnm X-Scale belmarca12 davl andrei_n nikkal madage knuckles srandon111 aeth rain bitmapper mdhughes evdubs daviid drakonis SGASAU` terpri__ lritter gravicappa edgar-rft skapata klovett whiteline civodul rgherdt elflng midre DGASAU c7d9 zooey nikita` yosafbridge Vidjuheffex notzmv lpsmith yosik[m]1 zig Ericson2314 even4void[m] siraben
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: Gnuxie[m] stephe terrorjack ec fowlduck laxask conjunctive rann physpi sz0 epony rickbutton userself jboy eMBee ski averell duncanm groovy travv0 bchar Riastradh hugo kilimanjaro mats gf3_ Guest23015 timwis ullbeking webshinra rbarraud wasamasa msirabella jackhill evhan deesix cemerick zmt00 cantstanya tryte_ xelxebar ByronJohnson moon-child Duns_Scrotus englishm nisstyre hansbauer[m] mbakke xavierm02 stux|work spectrumgomas[m] cibs SirDayBat tolja cpape
2020-06-17T20:20:42Z names: alicemaz Blukunfando rotty stux16777216Away drot abbe lavaflow DeeEff__ astronavt kjak foof yumh hive-mind vyzo Oxyd fgudin_ amoe lad pinoaffe casaca shymega pflanze cmatei friscosam C-Keen fadein ozzloy zaifir mroh jxy nckx lf94 r3x5 delucks heredoc fizzie gwatt Yardanico LeoNerd Blkt dTal cky balkamos ecraven dan64 Boarders Balooga jcowan rich_ samth kwmiebach GreaseMonkey aos add^_ joast Oddity `micro r0kc4t_ snits stepnem m1dnight_ cross rubic88
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2020-06-18T01:56:32Z erkin: jcowan: Do you have that document that lists order of evaluation across various implementations handy?
2020-06-18T01:56:38Z erkin: I couldn't find it anywhere.
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2020-06-18T14:58:31Z msiism: So, a PDF version of The Little Schemer is available for free from several places on the Web. Now, I wonder a) whether that is actually legal and b) if so, whether there is a canonical download location so I can link to it.
2020-06-18T14:58:54Z wasamasa: what makes you think there's a canonical download location
2020-06-18T14:59:12Z wasamasa: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/little-schemer-fourth-edition
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2020-06-18T14:59:55Z msiism: wasamasa: Well, I just thought there might be because experience tells me that for a lot of things you can download, there is.
2020-06-18T15:01:14Z jcowan: "Legal" is a vague term.  In most countries you are very unlikely to be sued by the copyright owner, and most countries do not criminalize copyright violations unless on a massive scale.
2020-06-18T15:03:04Z wasamasa: and no, there is no canonical ebook version
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2020-06-18T15:03:18Z wasamasa: that pdf is something scanned in by a random person
2020-06-18T15:03:48Z msiism: I see. I was just thinking that, maybe, a PDF version was released under a free license at some point.
2020-06-18T15:04:38Z amerigo: what do you mean by canonical
2020-06-18T15:06:18Z msiism: By that I mean “officially _the_ place” you'd usually get it from.
2020-06-18T15:07:10Z amerigo: official place would be a bookstore or  library
2020-06-18T15:08:15Z msiism: Yeah, I mean, concenring the downloadable PDF I was more thinking of a home page for that book on the Web offering it.
2020-06-18T15:09:20Z zaifir: msiism: AFAIK none of the Little books are released under "free" licenses.
2020-06-18T15:09:31Z msiism: But never mind, I see it's all a grey area. That's what I actually wanted to know.
2020-06-18T15:09:48Z amerigo: sicp is fully free though
2020-06-18T15:09:57Z msiism: Oh, I didn't know that.
2020-06-18T15:10:30Z zaifir: msiism: This is supported by a comment that Dan Friedman made in a 2018 talk where he said he'd like to give everyone a copy of The Reasoned Schemer, but wouldn't, because "sorry, that's the deal".
2020-06-18T15:10:45Z wasamasa: the mitpress link is as official as it gets :D
2020-06-18T15:11:00Z msiism: wasamasa: Yeah, I figured. :)
2020-06-18T15:11:22Z msiism: zaifir: I see.
2020-06-18T15:11:33Z zaifir: (I guess Abelson & Sussman have enough clout with MIT Press to get them to use CC, or whatever SICP is released under.)
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2020-06-18T15:12:40Z msiism: I mean, as a publisher, you can't really release a lot of things under free licenses because that would lead to your company going broke, I guess.
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2020-06-18T15:12:55Z zaifir: msiism: [citation needed]
2020-06-18T15:13:04Z amerigo: I wonder if Software Design for Flexibility will also be released with free licence
2020-06-18T15:13:31Z amerigo: scientific publishers don't work that way
2020-06-18T15:15:13Z zaifir: Yeah, I seriously doubt MIT Press needs to sell books to stay in business.
2020-06-18T15:15:31Z msiism: I see.
2020-06-18T15:15:57Z Riastradh: amerigo: if you email gjs I bet he'd be happy to send you a PDF or something
2020-06-18T15:16:18Z jcowan: zaifir: Au contraire.  U.S. universities consider their presses to be a profit center.
2020-06-18T15:16:35Z jcowan: If it doesn't make money for the university, it gets shut down.
2020-06-18T15:16:46Z amerigo: jcowan: yes, but they don't profit from selling books
2020-06-18T15:16:47Z msiism: zaifir: My idea was that, as a publisher, if you release a book in a manner that makes it free to copy _and_ redistribute for everyone, well, you're not gonna sell all that many units of that book, are you?
2020-06-18T15:17:16Z jcowan: It utterly depends on the book.
2020-06-18T15:17:20Z amerigo: jcowan: or maybe not by selling books to private people
2020-06-18T15:17:49Z jcowan: For example, it may make business sense to give away the first novel in a series for free and then count on people paying for the remaining novels.
2020-06-18T15:18:19Z msiism: jcowan: Yeah, okay, but that's basically just a clever way not to do what you did with the first novel.
2020-06-18T15:18:29Z zaifir: msiism: There are a few publishers in the US that use Creative Commons primarily.  The first print edition of xkcd was published CC-BY-NC by BreadPig, I think the publisher was.
2020-06-18T15:19:02Z amerigo: scientific / university publishers  mainly sell to other universitiers (libraries, journal subscriptions, journal publishing costs)
2020-06-18T15:19:04Z zaifir: msiism: It seems plausible to sell redistributable copies, if they're nicely made.
2020-06-18T15:20:06Z msiism: zaifir: Okay, but then, that's very special (the xkcd book) because it really targets people who want to the printed thing and are probably not interested in reproducing it at all because they kind of would want to support the whole project.
2020-06-18T15:20:25Z zaifir: zaifir: Sure.
2020-06-18T15:20:35Z zaifir: Oops.
2020-06-18T15:20:37Z zaifir: msiism: Sure!
2020-06-18T15:20:58Z amerigo: Riastradh: are you saying that there is there some draft version circulating?
2020-06-18T15:21:01Z Riastradh: Well-bound copies are worth something, but academic publishers are all too happy to send you some piece of garbage fan-edge adhesive binding glued into two pieces of cardboard, and with the pages off by one so the page numbers are next to the spine instead of the edge and charge you $100 for it.
2020-06-18T15:21:03Z zaifir: msiism: I don't see how that makes it "very special".  Lots of people will pay for a nice copy of something.
2020-06-18T15:21:18Z amirouche: well, dead tree books can be scaned, it makes all DRM-free mediums weak
2020-06-18T15:21:51Z zaifir: Riastradh: That is *very* annoying.
2020-06-18T15:21:52Z Riastradh: (serves me right for trying to go the legitimate route and not just have a pdf from libgen printed and bind it myself)
2020-06-18T15:22:48Z msiism: zaifir: It's certainly special interest and my guess is that most of those comics are also available on the Web already. And the group of poeple potentially buying that book probably already know that.
2020-06-18T15:23:22Z zaifir: msiism: Yes.  The preface to the xkcd book says that, in fact.  "This is all free on the web."
2020-06-18T15:24:11Z zaifir: (OT, Munroe has since started using "all rights reserved" on his new books. Boo.)
2020-06-18T15:24:41Z msiism: zaifir: I see. I'm just trying to say: It's very much not the same as $star_author having his or her latest book released under a CC license by $big_publisher.
2020-06-18T15:24:54Z Riastradh: amerigo: Well, draft copies have circulated, but what I'm saying is that I bet gjs would be happy to share a final copy.  MIT Press aside, his salary does not depend on selling copies of the book.
2020-06-18T15:25:13Z zaifir: msiism: I certainly agree.  I just thought of that as example.
2020-06-18T15:26:12Z amerigo: Riastradh: that's nice
2020-06-18T15:27:35Z amirouche: speaking of book, ONE person bought my book about arew R7RS.
2020-06-18T15:27:45Z amirouche: it is incomplete but...
2020-06-18T15:29:22Z wasamasa: arew sounds like a japanese wolf howl
2020-06-18T15:29:51Z amirouche: neat!
2020-06-18T15:30:13Z amirouche: It means "be prosper" in amazigh language, it also means "in a row" in old english.
2020-06-18T15:33:12Z wasamasa: regarding the book, I'm not surprised, it's hard to know it's there if it only is mentioned in search engine caches
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2020-06-18T15:41:08Z wasamasa: hm, found it
2020-06-18T15:41:19Z wasamasa: judging from the table of contents it's going to be reference documentation?
2020-06-18T15:41:27Z wasamasa: or are you shooting for something like TSPL?
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2020-06-18T17:28:37Z terzievk: What does the dot mean here http://ix.io/2pvX
2020-06-18T17:30:42Z jcowan: erkin: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ArgumentOrder.md
2020-06-18T17:32:04Z jcowan: terzievk: The same thing it means in http://google.com
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2020-06-18T17:40:57Z wasamasa: terzievk: rest arguments
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2020-06-18T17:54:32Z terzievk: thanks
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2020-06-18T22:42:03Z johntalent: What is a good distrobution to create a minecraft server in Scheme?
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2020-06-18T23:21:47Z dTal: I don't understand the question. Do you mean linux distribution?
2020-06-18T23:21:54Z dTal: minecraft server in scheme?
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2020-06-19T00:29:16Z foof: how about a minecraft client in scheme?
2020-06-19T00:34:08Z zaifir: How about Minetest (https://www.minetest.net/) with Chibi instead of Lua?
2020-06-19T00:37:35Z foof: oh, that looks cool, thanks!
2020-06-19T00:38:45Z zaifir: C++ core, unfortunately, but it's pretty clear code.
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2020-06-19T01:49:55Z edgar-rft: let's re-implement the internet in scheme
2020-06-19T01:57:54Z foof: I'm working on it, but I have bills to pay.  The fun comes when I retire.
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2020-06-19T02:42:53Z johntalent: dTal: no, writing a server for minecraft in scheme.
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2020-06-19T08:16:11Z SpaceIgor2075: Hello! I'm a newbie. What is the best way to structure a Scheme project that has multiple files?
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2020-06-19T08:49:26Z CyDefect: SpaceIgor2075:  for which version of standard?
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2020-06-19T08:50:24Z CyDefect: or which scheme-implementation?
2020-06-19T08:50:31Z SpaceIgor2075: R5RS CHICKEN
2020-06-19T08:51:11Z CyDefect: SpaceIgor2075:  sorry I out, no experience with chicken
2020-06-19T08:52:05Z SpaceIgor2075: How do you organise it in implementations you're familiar with?
2020-06-19T08:53:17Z CyDefect: I uses R6RS libraries, with chezscheme and loko
2020-06-19T08:54:00Z CyDefect: Once I did my own library-implementation with GAMBIT, it didn't conform to any standard
2020-06-19T08:54:49Z CyDefect: My conclusion is: The R6RS library system is much better than mine
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2020-06-19T08:58:51Z CyDefect: I bet, there is an R7RS library implementation for chicken
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2020-06-19T09:17:06Z mdhughes: This is what I've found works: http://community.schemewiki.org/?module-example-chicken
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2020-06-19T09:37:10Z erkin: Back when I first made a CHICKEN project, I wrote a Makefile that compiles each individual file, then statically links the objects into an executable.
2020-06-19T09:37:46Z erkin: Just so that I could avoid using `load', which I perceived to be inelegant.
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2020-06-19T12:33:27Z desmes: Hey people. I'm in the SICP section about data-directed programming and I need a data type to represent a dispatch table. I just need a simple two-dimensional dictionary. I'm looking at the scheme docummentation and I can't find something like this, what should I do?
2020-06-19T12:35:26Z wasamasa: list abuse is always an option
2020-06-19T12:36:08Z wasamasa: what do you mean with two-dimensional though?
2020-06-19T12:36:10Z desmes: What is "list abuse"? Sounds sketchy, lol
2020-06-19T12:36:27Z desmes: Just like a simple table. Two keys instead of one
2020-06-19T12:36:30Z wasamasa: the tendency of using lists when you shouldn't
2020-06-19T12:36:50Z wasamasa: present in lisp dialects invented in the last century
2020-06-19T12:37:22Z desmes: Isn't there a data type to do this? It's a really fundamental thing this that I want to do
2020-06-19T12:37:46Z wasamasa: not in the standard, no
2020-06-19T12:38:26Z desmes: Is this what I'm looking for? https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Hash-Table-Reference.html
2020-06-19T12:38:27Z wasamasa: mind you, SICP does this all the time
2020-06-19T12:38:35Z desmes: Does what?
2020-06-19T12:38:40Z wasamasa: abusing lists
2020-06-19T12:39:05Z wasamasa: have you skipped the parts of the book where you create trees from them?
2020-06-19T12:39:11Z desmes: But this is not a SICP thing actually, just something quick I need to do some exercises (and test them).
2020-06-19T12:39:23Z desmes: Nope, I've done all the exercises.
2020-06-19T12:39:35Z desmes: Until this section, of course.
2020-06-19T12:40:30Z desmes: SICP asumes the procedures PUT and GET exist (for accessing the dispatch table). But those don't exist in Guile, for example. I just need a really simple implementation for the dispatch table, a two-dimensional dictionary.
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2020-06-19T12:41:18Z wasamasa: it also references a chapter where these are implemented :D
2020-06-19T12:41:24Z desmes: Can't I use some guile library then? That implements this data object (a N dimensional dictionary, I guess)?
2020-06-19T12:42:15Z desmes: Really? I must have missed that. Lets see.
2020-06-19T12:43:16Z desmes: It actually says that PUT and GET will be implemented in Chapter 3, and I'm in Chapter 2.
2020-06-19T12:44:33Z desmes: I don't really wanna skip things and go to chapter 3 before I can test my exercises. Isn't there any way of getting a two-dimensional dictionary in Scheme?
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2020-06-19T12:44:57Z wasamasa: what I'm describing is a portable way of achieving this in any scheme
2020-06-19T12:46:45Z wasamasa: there is no ready-made thing doing what they describe, you'll have to do some extra work in either case
2020-06-19T12:46:49Z desmes: I don't really want to implement everything myself though. Sometimes I want to just use these fundamental data types out-of-the-box. Specially if I'm already programming something to learn (a SICP exercise).
2020-06-19T12:46:56Z DKordic: desmes: W:Association_list and a procedure that is usually called "assoc".  I am not sure if I should tell You that W:Currying is releveant.
2020-06-19T12:46:59Z wasamasa: like combining both values to a list and using the list as key
2020-06-19T12:48:03Z desmes: Oh ok. What is this "W:" notation you are using?
2020-06-19T12:49:23Z DKordic: desmes: Wikipedia
2020-06-19T12:50:21Z wasamasa: anyway, I think you're exaggerating the difficulty, this is scheme, not C
2020-06-19T12:50:40Z DKordic: Infomercial break!  You must try https://tools.suckless.org/ii/ !  The finest steam punk that is UNIX!
2020-06-19T12:51:12Z desmes: DKordic: ok I see, thanks
2020-06-19T12:51:18Z wasamasa: get/put exists in at least one scheme implementation with the limitation of accepting symbols for the keys only
2020-06-19T12:52:15Z desmes: wasamasa: Ok then, how would you implement this then? An alist in which the car of the element is a cons cel of the two keys and the cdr the data?
2020-06-19T12:52:48Z desmes: (Still kinda bothers me that I can't use a simple library to have this OOTB though...)
2020-06-19T12:52:49Z wasamasa: yes
2020-06-19T12:52:54Z wasamasa: welcome to scheme
2020-06-19T12:53:37Z desmes: Lol but there are web servers and a lot more complicated libraries... but no N-dimensional dictionaries...
2020-06-19T12:55:23Z wasamasa: that's a rather misleading description of what's going on there
2020-06-19T12:55:58Z wasamasa: for example in elisp put/get exist, but they are symbol manipulating procedures
2020-06-19T12:56:37Z wasamasa: and they're used in this way, for example to declare how a particular scheme function (first key) should be indented (second key) by what amount (value)
2020-06-19T12:57:21Z wasamasa: this works by having a pool of symbols (first key) which themselves have a plist of slots (combinations of second key and value)
2020-06-19T12:57:36Z wasamasa: which is the list abuse mentioned earlier :D
2020-06-19T12:57:47Z desmes: In Elisp the data-directed programming PUT/GET exist? I'm not looking for this though, I just one something more fundamental, a simple data type.
2020-06-19T12:58:16Z wasamasa: I'm absolutely certain that's the reason for this funny design
2020-06-19T12:58:28Z zaifir: Use an alist, unless you really care about efficiency.
2020-06-19T12:58:36Z desmes: hahahah "funny design"?
2020-06-19T12:58:57Z wasamasa: it exists in some classic lisp dialects (the symbol-focused kind), in scheme (procedure-focused), not so much
2020-06-19T13:00:07Z desmes: Oooh I see. Which would be the symbol-focused dialects then? CL?
2020-06-19T13:00:22Z wasamasa: yes, that's the other surviving one
2020-06-19T13:00:24Z zaifir: What does "symbol-focused" mean?
2020-06-19T13:00:41Z wasamasa: lisp-n
2020-06-19T13:00:44Z desmes: To me sounds like Smalltalk
2020-06-19T13:01:01Z erkin: the bad kind
2020-06-19T13:01:02Z wasamasa: having separate namespaces for variables, procedures, ...
2020-06-19T13:01:11Z wasamasa: having special constructs for rebinding either
2020-06-19T13:01:17Z zaifir: Symbol-focused seems like a strange way to describe it.
2020-06-19T13:01:19Z wasamasa: and constructs for doing introspection
2020-06-19T13:02:05Z zaifir: I guess there's the weird old plist tradition.
2020-06-19T13:02:11Z wasamasa: I mean, it's a classic tradeoff whether you'd prefer a richer set of tools for symbols or deem higher-order functions more important
2020-06-19T13:02:33Z wasamasa: I say symbol-oriented instead of lisp-n because there's a lisp-1 that does the same thing
2020-06-19T13:02:53Z wasamasa: picolisp is strangely obsessed with symbols, too
2020-06-19T13:03:15Z wasamasa: they use the put/get approach for light-weight OOP
2020-06-19T13:03:28Z zaifir: picolisp is pretty weird.
2020-06-19T13:03:30Z desmes: In picolisp?
2020-06-19T13:03:52Z wasamasa: it's efficient for a small number of slots
2020-06-19T13:04:08Z zaifir: Nothing you can't do with define-record-type.
2020-06-19T13:04:22Z wasamasa: but then you lose all introspection :D
2020-06-19T13:04:30Z zaifir: That is true.
2020-06-19T13:07:13Z wasamasa: I found it tricky to know when to use quotes and when not
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2020-06-19T13:12:44Z mdhughes: desmes: hashtables are in all Schemes. R6RS has them standard, everyone else uses SRFI 69 https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-69/srfi-69.html
2020-06-19T13:15:04Z mdhughes: You don't have to build everything up from stone knives & bearskins. If something's not in a SRFI, there's often a library for it on the web.
2020-06-19T13:15:14Z desmes: mdhughes: Can those hashtables be of 2 dimensions though?
2020-06-19T13:15:48Z mdhughes: How do you mean? You can store hashtables in hashtables, of course.
2020-06-19T13:15:50Z zaifir: SRFI 125 has superseded 69 in R7 large, although 69 is more widely implemented at the moment.
2020-06-19T13:16:01Z wasamasa: that's what's done in chapter 3, but with alists
2020-06-19T13:16:04Z mdhughes: But SRFI-69 has the better number.
2020-06-19T13:16:07Z erkin: nice
2020-06-19T13:16:09Z zaifir: True.
2020-06-19T13:16:11Z wasamasa: really, show me a language offering you a two-dimensional hash table out of the box :D
2020-06-19T13:16:31Z desmes: mdhughes: I meant two keys instead of 1, sorry.
2020-06-19T13:16:40Z desmes: Like an actual table.
2020-06-19T13:17:01Z desmes: lol
2020-06-19T13:17:06Z wasamasa: everything other than elisp I've touched so far does the hash table nesting thing or allows you to use some composite key (as long as it's hashable)
2020-06-19T13:17:38Z desmes: Just looking this up on google I've found Python's
2020-06-19T13:17:49Z desmes: I don't mean nesting though
2020-06-19T13:18:04Z mdhughes: So just a list for key instead of symbol?
2020-06-19T13:18:15Z desmes: I mean like an actual (word processor-like) table. Two keys give you an element.
2020-06-19T13:18:41Z wasamasa: one of the key lessons in SICP is that given sufficient abstractions the implementation is irrelevant
2020-06-19T13:18:50Z erkin: I've never seen any language with that out of the box. Ruby and Scheme just make it with nested dicts/hashes.
2020-06-19T13:18:51Z erkin: err
2020-06-19T13:18:53Z erkin: Ruby and Python*
2020-06-19T13:19:04Z wasamasa: we've suggested two possible implementations so far
2020-06-19T13:19:10Z erkin: a[0][0] is literally the 0th index of a[0].
2020-06-19T13:19:14Z desmes: I guess they have libraries for it then, don't they?
2020-06-19T13:19:17Z zaifir: Or with awk-style fakery (concatenating keys).
2020-06-19T13:19:21Z erkin: No, it's just syntax.
2020-06-19T13:19:25Z mdhughes: In Python you'd just be using a tuple key for a dict.
2020-06-19T13:19:44Z erkin: It queries a for the zeroth element, which yields a dict. Then it queries that as well for the zeroth element, which yields your result.
2020-06-19T13:19:55Z erkin: Well, list and dict indexing work the same way.
2020-06-19T13:20:23Z erkin: You can trivially write a helper hash-ref and hash-set! procedure that allows for arbitrary levels of nesting.
2020-06-19T13:20:24Z desmes: I mean, in my mind this should be something really basic. If you have dictionaries in every language, why can't you have a dictionary with N keys instead of 1 key?
2020-06-19T13:20:37Z erkin: You can. This is how it's done under the hood.
2020-06-19T13:20:51Z wasamasa: even fortran fakes this :D
2020-06-19T13:20:58Z erkin: There's no magical 2-dimensional dictionary data type that's distinct from the 1-dimensional one.
2020-06-19T13:21:06Z desmes: With "have", I mean "have OOTB".
2020-06-19T13:21:08Z erkin: Replace dictionary with table, map, what you have.
2020-06-19T13:21:09Z zaifir: desmes: How is that different from a 1-dimensional dictionary whose keys are tuples?
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2020-06-19T13:21:22Z erkin: I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at here.
2020-06-19T13:21:24Z wasamasa: they just use plain arrays with funny ordering and define something translating coordinates to indices
2020-06-19T13:21:40Z desmes: zaifir: which equality should be used then? EQ?
2020-06-19T13:21:48Z zaifir: desmes: equal? is the simplest choice.
2020-06-19T13:21:54Z erkin: a["foo"]["bar"] in Python is identical to (hash-ref (hash-ref a 'foo) 'bar).
2020-06-19T13:22:04Z erkin: It's just that Python has syntactic sugar for indexing.
2020-06-19T13:22:05Z mdhughes: And internally, a hashtable or dict is just an array with a hashing function to decide which slot to add/search for items.
2020-06-19T13:22:15Z desmes: zaifir: I see, much simpler than I thought hahah.
2020-06-19T13:22:21Z mdhughes: (or a tree, if you build it that way instead)
2020-06-19T13:22:33Z zaifir: Who knows what a dictionary is internally.  It shouldn't matter.
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2020-06-19T13:23:05Z erkin: A well designed system doesn't make you worry about the underlying implementation.
2020-06-19T13:23:07Z mdhughes: It does matter to performance and traversal order. Different impls for different jobs.
2020-06-19T13:23:25Z zaifir: desmes: Take a look at SRFI 125, which uses comparators to determine how to compare and hash keys.
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2020-06-19T13:24:25Z zaifir: mdhughes: It shouldn't leak, though.  We should be able to work with a type abstractly and not have to account for implementation details.
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2020-06-19T13:25:13Z erkin: Your language might implement floating points with Church numerals in lists for all I care. :-D
2020-06-19T13:25:22Z zaifir: The *useful* performance details are proofs of time and space complexity.
2020-06-19T13:25:32Z mdhughes: zaifir: That's not how real computers work, tho. You may have many orders of magnitude performance, memory, differences, you might have to do extra work sorting if your traversal is impractical.
2020-06-19T13:25:38Z desmes: zaifir: Ok, will do thanks!
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2020-06-19T13:26:09Z mdhughes: I don't believe in magical math computers. The ones I use are crappy strings of transistors we barely get to produce 01+01=10
2020-06-19T13:26:37Z zaifir: It seems like we're back to the "math is not useful" debate again...
2020-06-19T13:27:02Z mdhughes: Math can be a useful model, but it's not real, is all.
2020-06-19T13:27:23Z mdhughes: (insert joke "math is integer")
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2020-06-19T13:28:10Z zaifir: Calculemus!
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2020-06-19T13:29:10Z erkin: https://stackoverflow.com/a/14350525
2020-06-19T13:29:25Z erkin: It's evidently trivial to implement higher-level procedures.
2020-06-19T13:30:20Z zaifir: All you need is λ
2020-06-19T13:31:13Z erkin: Lambda the Ultimate N-Dimensional Hashtable
2020-06-19T13:31:33Z zaifir: Hah, the lost AI memo.
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2020-06-19T13:34:11Z erkin: Another dissatisfied customer.
2020-06-19T13:36:10Z zaifir: rudybot: Next!
2020-06-19T13:36:10Z rudybot: zaifir: this is only what the guy next to me at drinks said, so I may not know the whole story
2020-06-19T13:38:23Z zaifir: I can't say I understand the point of asking why <feature> isn't included in Scheme "out of the box".  Either it's there or it isn't, I suppose.
2020-06-19T13:39:03Z zaifir: And, in the words of Felix Unger, "You have to make gravy!  It doesn't just 'come'!"
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2020-06-19T13:45:40Z erkin: What I don't understand is the implication that all other languages have this.
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2020-06-19T13:49:07Z mdhughes: There's a lot of different Scheme boxes, and some of them do have whatever toy you want.
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2020-06-19T15:55:53Z lockywolf_: How do I include assets into an r7rs library?
2020-06-19T15:56:53Z lockywolf_: Suppose, I need to attach some pre-defined artwork in the form of a .jpg
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2020-06-19T16:00:27Z wasamasa: try the C approach
2020-06-19T16:01:40Z wasamasa: (define asset "#\x00#\xc0#\xff#\xee")
2020-06-19T16:02:27Z wasamasa: emacs will hate you, but hey, it works
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2020-06-19T16:17:02Z lockywolf_: hm...
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2020-06-19T16:35:34Z lockywolf_: yeah, seems to be working
2020-06-19T16:35:56Z lockywolf_: not very efficient, but who cares about space nowadays
2020-06-19T16:35:59Z mdhughes: Well, if you're going to do that, use an xbm format!
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2020-06-19T16:36:56Z mdhughes: But also there's image loaders in any GUI toolkit, like SDL.
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2020-06-19T17:24:18Z jcowan: zaifir: People are used to languages with only one implementation and with a hard and fast distinction between what is included and what is an add-on.  Scheme, of course, is the complete opposite of this.
2020-06-19T17:24:30Z jcowan: That's why they ask if something is available "out of the box".
2020-06-19T17:26:31Z LeoNerd: "Scheme" is merely a specification and does not come in a box
2020-06-19T17:26:58Z LeoNerd: ... not that any actual software comes in boxes these days anyway
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2020-06-19T17:29:40Z zig: outside scheme world, everything seems a singleton implementation (outside javascript, and people do not like javascript because there is several gods *ahem* implementations)
2020-06-19T17:29:54Z zig: I think Java has different hash tables.
2020-06-19T17:30:27Z zig: it true, that it would be nice to have a go-to solution for hash-tables, well, that is called an alist.
2020-06-19T17:30:40Z zig: not really _hash_ table, but does the job.
2020-06-19T17:32:53Z zig: rudybot: eventually there will be a hash-table implementation for everyone
2020-06-19T17:32:56Z rudybot: zig: quick tutorial on r7rs hash-table: (define ht (make-hash-table (make-default-comparator))) then (hash-table-set! ht 'key proc) eventually (hash-table-ref ht 'key)
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2020-06-19T18:10:20Z mdhughes: The one thing I really can't stand in SRFI and R7 is "hash-table" as two words. It's a single noun. Java calls it a Hashtable just fine. English likes portmanteau words.
2020-06-19T18:11:19Z mdhughes: So when I'm coding on CHICKEN I just define aliases for it so I never have to see the atrocity.
2020-06-19T18:12:58Z mdhughes: (Java also calls it a Map, a HashMap, and a bunch of other subclasses, because they think Linnaeus was a piker)
2020-06-19T18:20:35Z aeth: Even the tiny standard Scheme of r7rs.pdf doesn't have to be included in the box...
2020-06-19T18:21:04Z aeth: In one of my searches of Schemes, I found as many almost-R7RSes as R7RSes
2020-06-19T18:21:27Z aeth: there's like 3-4 pure R7RS subsets.
2020-06-19T18:21:47Z aeth: I guess you can also include half of SRFI 172 and then there's a lot more.
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2020-06-19T18:23:25Z aeth: zig: Most of the old languages are multi-implementation: C, C++, Pascal, Basic, Fortran, Scheme, Common Lisp, etc. Even Emacs Lisp (although xemacs essentially died a decade ago).
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2020-06-19T18:23:47Z aeth: Then there are quite a few that have a "main" implementation and at least one faster mostly-compatible implementation: Python, Ruby, Lua, etc.
2020-06-19T18:24:30Z aeth: These are different, though, because they're not specified languages.
2020-06-19T18:24:49Z aeth: (I guess Emacs Lisp is more like this second class)
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2020-06-19T18:51:34Z jcowan: mdhughes: A hashtable is something that can be hashted, obviously.
2020-06-19T18:51:46Z jcowan: whereas a hash table is a table that uses hashes.
2020-06-19T18:52:58Z mdhughes: Right, so a nightstand is a nightst and…
2020-06-19T18:53:13Z zaifir: It can be tricky to pick a good hasht function.
2020-06-19T18:54:10Z jcowan: in any case, Hashtable is a deprecated class, unlike HashMap
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2020-06-19T18:55:32Z zaifir: If anything, the "hash-" prefix could be dropped as an implementation detail.
2020-06-19T18:55:34Z mdhughes: English isn't quite German, but it's a German-like agglutinative language in many of our nouns. It's fine. And as a practical matter, "make-eq-hash-table" requires 4 lifts from homekeys or code completes, while "make-eq-hashtable" only needs 3, which is where it matters.
2020-06-19T18:55:45Z zaifir: SRFI 146 does it well with "mapping".
2020-06-19T18:56:07Z ecraven: mdhughes: simple solution, move - to a better position :P
2020-06-19T18:56:22Z zaifir: Dvorak :)
2020-06-19T18:56:26Z mdhughes: Swap space and -, that actually makes sense for Scheme.
2020-06-19T18:56:41Z mdhughes: () with ,.
2020-06-19T18:56:50Z mdhughes: Or maybe foot pedals.
2020-06-19T18:57:15Z zaifir: "The Lisp Organ"
2020-06-19T18:57:16Z ecraven: I have () on the right hand's index and middle finger (with a thumb key)
2020-06-19T18:57:20Z ecraven: one of the best ideas I ever had
2020-06-19T18:57:22Z mdhughes: But barring that, I'll stick with trying not to shove - in the middle of a noun.
2020-06-19T18:57:31Z ecraven: makes s-expressions so nice to talk
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2020-06-19T19:00:16Z aeth: zaifir: idk, a hash table kind of needs to leak its implementation details, same with a linked list and a (CS, not math) vector
2020-06-19T19:00:46Z aeth: The basic data structures are basically entirely about their rule of thumb big-O characteristics
2020-06-19T19:01:12Z aeth: Otherwise just use one data structure for everything and use a magic JIT to try to disambiguate, e.g. the LuaJIT approach
2020-06-19T19:02:18Z aeth: Strings are a bit of an exception here since every language handles them differently.
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2020-06-19T19:04:52Z Riastradh: solution: throw out hash tables and use radixtrees instead
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2020-06-19T19:40:50Z duncanm: la la la
2020-06-19T19:45:54Z gnomon: DUM de dum
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2020-06-19T20:08:16Z jcowan: In any case, you can always import with renaming
2020-06-19T20:08:51Z jcowan: aeth: And their mutability too.
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2020-06-19T20:30:54Z zaifir: jcowan: Right.  Regardless of how many implementations there are, or whether there's a BDFL or language committee, though, most languages have a process for adding new OOTB features.  If one cares enough about a feature, why not (1) implement it, and (2) get involved in the language development process?
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2020-06-19T20:31:46Z zaifir: It's hard to complain-on-IRC a feature into ubiquity.
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2020-06-19T22:50:07Z zaifir: If one is writing a procedure that takes a list argument that will be incorporated into a return value (and it is *not* an error to mutate the list passed), would it be reasonable to use a copy of the list parameter instead?
2020-06-19T22:51:03Z zaifir: Example: (define-record-type <foo> (raw-foo lis) ...) (define (foo lis) (raw-foo lis))
2020-06-19T22:51:57Z zaifir: Would (define (foo lis) (raw-foo (list-copy lis))) be preferable?  I think it might be.
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2020-06-19T22:58:01Z zaifir: Withot making a copy, we have: (define lis (list 1)) (define frob (foo lis)) (set-car! lis 2) frob  ; #<foo (2)>
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2020-06-20T02:21:20Z lockywolf_: a string is just a set of bytes ending with a zero byte...
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2020-06-20T05:29:48Z aeth: jcowan: iirc, strings must be mutable, text is immutable, and since this is #scheme, Scheme terminology wins
2020-06-20T05:43:11Z zaifir: And textuals cover both.
2020-06-20T05:44:29Z zaifir: (scheme text)/SRFI 135 is the future.  Hopefully.
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2020-06-20T05:48:19Z erkin: lockywolf: Not necessarily!
2020-06-20T05:48:25Z erkin: Oh they left.
2020-06-20T05:48:54Z erkin: I wonder if any mainstream Scheme takes the Pascal approach to strings.
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2020-06-20T05:55:50Z zig: re srfi 135 / scheme text, in my scheme, I want to keep R6RS strings, but only expose immutable operations, see https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/issues/487
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2020-06-20T05:58:20Z zig: the best thing would be to have only immutable strings, but since those are not readable, it makes things complicated.
2020-06-20T05:59:32Z zig: My understanding is that mutable string are still useful in resource constrained environments.
2020-06-20T06:01:59Z aeth: zig: my impression of immutable strings is that they're a lot more useful in a language without symbols/keywords or enums, where immutable strings fill the same role
2020-06-20T06:03:15Z zig: aeth: your are probably correct, but I never mutate a string in JS or Python (not sure whether string are mutable or not in those)
2020-06-20T06:03:36Z aeth: yeah but in Python you use strings where you use symbols/keywords in Lisps
2020-06-20T06:03:43Z zig: yes that is true
2020-06-20T06:03:53Z aeth: tons of extra strings all over the code for internal use only
2020-06-20T06:04:41Z zig: btw, there is a good practice at work that says something along the line, if you use a string more than once you must create a global constant, do you do something similar? it seems odd to me.
2020-06-20T06:04:57Z aeth: I've only seen that for numbers
2020-06-20T06:05:24Z zig: the reason / purpose, is also convoluted: avoid typos.
2020-06-20T06:07:08Z zig: not all numbers, if you increment another number say, my_number + 1, one is not necessarly a global constant, that would be very very odd.
2020-06-20T06:07:53Z zig: similarly for slices / ranges are not global constants.
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2020-06-20T06:12:44Z zaifir: aeth: Strings really should just be immutable, especially in a Unicode world.
2020-06-20T06:12:57Z zaifir: aeth: And they were, in R6.
2020-06-20T06:14:09Z zaifir: aeth: The cost of string copying sucks, considering string mutation happens so rarely.
2020-06-20T06:16:40Z zaifir: Similar comments go for list procedures.  Copying is a waste when no-one uses set-car!/-cdr!.  Too bad there are no Schemes with built-in (scheme ilist) support yet.
2020-06-20T06:16:59Z aeth: well sort of racket there
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2020-06-20T06:20:10Z aeth: zaifir: but if you don't use a higher order function or similar macro, you do have to either track the CDR and use set-cdr! or end your procedure with a reverse
2020-06-20T06:20:27Z aeth: and for all you know the higher order function or macro (e.g. map) uses set-cdr! itself
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2020-06-20T06:21:59Z zaifir: aeth: That's plausible, sure.  But if you know the list won't be mutated, the implementation can do a lot of optimizations.
2020-06-20T06:23:20Z zaifir: aeth: We don't have to go Racket and get rid of mutable pairs.  We've got ilists in R7 large.  The issue is just that Schemes need to build immutable lists in and optimize them.
2020-06-20T06:24:28Z zaifir: aeth: e.g. the implementation can share list structure, just as (scheme text) does with textual data.
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2020-06-20T06:25:54Z aeth: heh
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2020-06-20T06:26:03Z aeth: don't assume that it will optimize just because it can optimize
2020-06-20T06:26:10Z aeth: 95% of Scheme implementations probably won't
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2020-06-20T06:28:40Z zaifir: aeth: ... I'm saying that optimizing immutable lists would be a Good Thing for Schemes to do, if they add the R7RS-large ilist library.
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2020-06-20T06:31:00Z zaifir: aeth: There *are* ways of moving Scheme forward, rather than just assuming we're stuck with R5RS and whatever lispers were doing in the early 90s.
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2020-06-20T08:35:51Z zig: among the 334 tests in srfi 180, none catched an error with arrays of objects.
2020-06-20T08:36:39Z zig: now, it seems clear to me that I need more tests. But it is been 150 days.
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2020-06-20T08:37:14Z zig: what do you think about moving forward and finalizing the specification, and improve the implementation later?
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2020-06-20T10:48:34Z zig: Nevermind. I pushed json-sequence-read and json-lines-read, and asked Arthur for a last draft :)
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2020-06-20T15:39:32Z zig: my paper was rejected :/
2020-06-20T15:40:01Z zig: not very surprsing, actually I am happy, because of the good feedback.
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2020-06-20T15:40:52Z zig: s/good/insightful/
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2020-06-20T15:48:50Z jcowan: zig: What was the paper about?
2020-06-20T15:49:36Z zig: jcowan: frontend framework called forward.scm
2020-06-20T15:49:47Z zig: browser-based frontend framework.
2020-06-20T15:50:33Z jcowan: When I was implementing ilists, I started with the SRFI 1 implementation and ran it through sed in order to change all the names.  Of course nothing worked after that, because ... (wait for it) ...
2020-06-20T15:50:50Z jcowan: Rest args are always mutable lists.
2020-06-20T15:51:18Z jcowan: So then I had to go back and selectively change instances of icar and icdr and keep hacking on it until things worked.
2020-06-20T15:53:01Z jcowan: Rest args and booleans are actually the only points at which the Scheme language meets the Scheme data structures.  You could write a Scheme whose only data type was integer, provided you defined a convention for `if` and disallowed rest args.
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2020-06-20T16:10:52Z zig: why one would need to disallow rest args?
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2020-06-20T16:23:23Z erkin: jcowan: What's the reasoning behind making arglists mutable?
2020-06-20T16:23:38Z erkin: Both (λ (foo . this) ...) and (λ this ...)
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2020-06-20T16:56:40Z zaifir: Yeah, mutable argument lists can really bite you, especially when recursing.
2020-06-20T16:56:53Z jcowan: erkin: The fact that Scheme was devised when nobody thought immutable data structures made any sense.  Variables, strings, lists, vectors are all mutable.
2020-06-20T16:57:32Z jcowan: Yes, that's called variadic recursion and you should always avoid it by having a helper procedure that takes an explicit list and recurses on that.
2020-06-20T16:57:52Z jcowan: Oddly, though the CL standard specifies that arglists don't have to be copied, everyone does copy them anyway.
2020-06-20T16:58:00Z erkin: I mean in the 21st century. Would it be too much of a backwards incompatibility to make them immutable in a newer standard?
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2020-06-20T17:00:55Z jcowan: The Scheme Steering Committee defined it as part of the WG charters that IEEE Scheme < R7RS-small < R7RS-large, unless something Really Compelling was found that just had to be changed.  Makimng strings immutable was as close as we got.
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2020-06-20T17:01:22Z jcowan: People do, after all, use pairs as mutable tuples, and sorting those uses out from the others would be difficult.
2020-06-20T17:01:51Z jcowan: In the end the invariant was preserved.
2020-06-20T17:02:25Z erkin: Interesting. I didn't know about the IEEE part of the equation.
2020-06-20T17:02:57Z erkin: Are there any known incompatibilities between R7RS and IEEE besides immutable strings?
2020-06-20T17:06:29Z zaifir: Both IEEE and R7RS have only mutable strings, I believe.
2020-06-20T17:06:47Z jcowan: No, none.  And I meant that we *considered* immutable strings, contra IEEE, but didn't go with them.
2020-06-20T17:07:16Z jcowan: One reason for adding vector->string to R5RS was to be able to use vectors of characters as a proxy for mutable strings.
2020-06-20T17:07:49Z jcowan: IEEE is essentially R4RS + #f-is-not-()
2020-06-20T17:08:16Z jcowan: in R4 #f is allowed to be () but not required to be
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2020-06-20T17:12:36Z zaifir: Only immutable strings would have been a Good Thing. But we've got (scheme text), which is an awesome library.
2020-06-20T17:16:15Z jcowan: It is.  The trouble is that most consumers of strings won't accept texts.
2020-06-20T17:17:10Z jcowan: so e.g. you cannot display a text without converting it to a string first. That doesn't change the O(n) cost, but it does affect storage and GC
2020-06-20T17:19:36Z zaifir: Yeah, implementation support is still poor.  And most libraries which provide string-related procedures know nothing of texts.  There's a lot of work to do, I guess.
2020-06-20T17:20:24Z erkin: jcowan: Speaking of which, is there a publicly available version of IEEE text anywhere?
2020-06-20T17:20:53Z jcowan: Alas no.  But it is available as samizdat: try cowan@ccil.org
2020-06-20T17:22:24Z erkin: Sent.
2020-06-20T17:23:59Z zaifir: I asked this last night, but no one was on.  Is it prudent to copy a piece of mutable data passed to a data constructor?
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2020-06-20T17:25:18Z erkin: Huh. Apparently R3RS allowed for duplicate literals. I wonder what ((λ (x x) x) 1 2) would return.
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2020-06-20T17:28:41Z mdhughes: Can't you just overload all the string- functions to also recognize texts?
2020-06-20T17:29:12Z zaifir: Maybe if there were a comparator-style "textual" object.
2020-06-20T17:29:14Z erkin: Wouldn't that add a lot of overhead?
2020-06-20T17:29:24Z zaifir: mdhughes: When has Scheme ever had overloading?
2020-06-20T17:30:42Z erkin: (+ 1 2.0) :-)
2020-06-20T17:30:49Z mdhughes: (define %oldfoo foo) (define foo (lambda (x) (case-type x [string? ...] [text? ...]
2020-06-20T17:30:50Z zaifir: True.
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2020-06-20T17:31:24Z zaifir: Many jokes have been made about the un-Schemeliness of Scheme's numeric tower.
2020-06-20T17:31:49Z mdhughes: Probably not great in the tightest of loops, but that'd probably be just a couple ASM cycles each.
2020-06-20T17:32:32Z zaifir: Right.  Just fine for most situations.
2020-06-20T17:32:50Z mdhughes: Julia had the right idea building method dispatch in at the lowest levels, so it's *fast*.
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2020-06-20T17:33:50Z erkin . o O (unboxed strings)
2020-06-20T17:35:52Z zaifir: Eh, speed isn't everything.  I'm glad we don't have someone's OO model hard-coded into the core of Scheme.
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2020-06-20T17:36:14Z erkin: You can still have your cake and eat it.
2020-06-20T17:36:22Z mdhughes: Just someone's first-year linked list model!
2020-06-20T17:36:29Z erkin: Consider `+' together with `fx+' and `fl+'.
2020-06-20T17:36:40Z mdhughes: Strings are an array of bytes! Sure that sounds fine!
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2020-06-20T17:37:03Z erkin: Strings could be anything, as long as it's a sequence of characters. ;-P
2020-06-20T17:37:15Z zaifir: Every functional-flavored language has lists at the bottom, because they're one of the simplest inductively-defined types.
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2020-06-20T17:37:28Z zaifir: (Not necessarily "at the bottom", of course.)
2020-06-20T17:37:35Z erkin: Case in point: Erlang has two forms of strings: One is byte vector, the other is linked list of characters.
2020-06-20T17:37:45Z erkin: (they're incompatible)
2020-06-20T17:37:46Z mdhughes: Not every. Clojure uses growable vectors, which is a reasonable answer.
2020-06-20T17:38:25Z mdhughes: Julia's collection types are kind of a mess because they're not language-dictated, just library.
2020-06-20T17:38:56Z zaifir: It's totally plausible to implement lists with growable vectors.  I'm talking about the (abstract) type, not implementation.
2020-06-20T17:40:06Z mdhughes: Sure, but set-car! and set-cdr! expose the `typedef struct { void *car; void *cdr; } cons;` impl.
2020-06-20T17:40:35Z zaifir: Because pairs aren't lists.
2020-06-20T17:40:47Z mdhughes: "linked list model"
2020-06-20T17:40:51Z zaifir: The weird thing about Scheme is the lack of a real list type.
2020-06-20T17:41:05Z erkin: Real list?
2020-06-20T17:41:16Z zaifir: Olin compares it to C's lack of a string type.
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2020-06-20T17:41:27Z erkin: Isn't 'list' an *abstract* data type?
2020-06-20T17:41:30Z Riastradh: what is a `type'
2020-06-20T17:41:30Z zaifir: I mean, a list which is not just a collection of pairs.
2020-06-20T17:43:01Z bitmapper: uhh
2020-06-20T17:43:04Z bitmapper: that is a real list
2020-06-20T17:43:06Z zaifir: In Scheme, list? has to cdr down a chain of pairs to determine if it ends with (), and is not an improper list.
2020-06-20T17:43:18Z erkin: What other types of lists are there?
2020-06-20T17:43:33Z erkin: Some languages call dynamic vectors lists, though I'm sure you don't mean that.
2020-06-20T17:43:37Z erkin: (like Python)
2020-06-20T17:44:03Z zaifir: We can get answers to string? or vector? in O(1) time (probably), but lists are just certain configurations of pairs which we have to traverse to see if they are, indeed, proper lists.
2020-06-20T17:44:35Z erkin: Lists are, by definition, sequential and not random-access data types.
2020-06-20T17:45:04Z mdhughes: That's only the definition in LISP/Scheme. Python lists or Clojure arrays are proper lists, they're growable and O(1) index.
2020-06-20T17:45:19Z zaifir: As SRFI 1 says, in Lisp lists are an interpretation of chains of binary tuples.
2020-06-20T17:45:27Z erkin: mdhughes: Those are dynamic vectors.
2020-06-20T17:45:30Z mdhughes: Julia arrays are are non-growable, sort of.
2020-06-20T17:46:07Z mdhughes: That's the language LISP/Scheme uses, yes, but other languages disagree.
2020-06-20T17:46:38Z erkin: I'm going by the Wikipedia and textbook definition of a list.
2020-06-20T17:46:40Z zaifir: The point is not complexity.  The point is that not every list is (1) '(), (2) (cons x <list>)
2020-06-20T17:46:58Z erkin: Languages tend to gloss over the underlying implementation. What you think is an array in Lua is actually a hashmap.
2020-06-20T17:47:12Z erkin: So I'm not saying Python's dynamic vectors shouldn't be called lists.
2020-06-20T17:47:39Z mdhughes: I think you have that backwards, erkin. Lua only has arrays, not dicts? Javascript only has dicts, not arrays.
2020-06-20T17:47:50Z erkin: Lua only has hashtables and absolutely nothing else.
2020-06-20T17:48:14Z erkin: A bold design choice, admittedly.
2020-06-20T17:48:33Z zaifir: Implementations of types are not types.
2020-06-20T17:48:48Z erkin: zaifir: In that case, can you define a list for us?
2020-06-20T17:49:16Z erkin: Because at this point, array and list appear to be synonymous.
2020-06-20T17:50:15Z zaifir: erkin: A (list α) is (), or it is the cons of an α and a (list α).  Nothing is a (list α) that is not constructed according to those axioms.
2020-06-20T17:50:41Z jcowan: mdhughes: The trouble with that, as pre-5.0 releases of Chicken discovered slowly and painfully, is that such global rebinding doesn't play well with separate compilation.
2020-06-20T17:50:53Z erkin: I don't see how linked lists don't qualify as a true list then.
2020-06-20T17:51:09Z jcowan: You write code and compile it with (import texts-as-strings), but unless every library you call is also compiled with that feature, Bad Things.
2020-06-20T17:51:58Z zaifir: erkin: The problem with chained tuples is with axiom 3 ("nothing is a list except..."), because it allows improper lists.
2020-06-20T17:52:31Z erkin: Oh now I see what you mean.
2020-06-20T17:52:40Z jcowan: That just means you can't detect the listness of a list in O(1), but why should you be able to?
2020-06-20T17:52:49Z zaifir: erkin: This is why "list" is a slightly squishy idea in Lisp.
2020-06-20T17:53:06Z jcowan: s/a list/an object
2020-06-20T17:53:07Z zaifir: jcowan: It's not a big deal, I agree.
2020-06-20T17:53:27Z erkin: zaifir: Still, improper lists aren't list?.
2020-06-20T17:53:40Z zaifir: erkin: No.  See the SRFI 1 definition of list?.
2020-06-20T17:54:31Z erkin: zaifir: I don't exactly agree with that definition.
2020-06-20T17:55:42Z zaifir: If you use null? to stop your list recursion and you hit an improper list, you're screwed.
2020-06-20T17:55:47Z mdhughes: jcowan: Yeah, you'd have to boil the ocean with every compile, or be able to mark functions for late dispatch.
2020-06-20T17:56:14Z zaifir: But it seems most of us don't bother with list? and instead use the quick-and-dirty (or (pair? x) (null? x))
2020-06-20T17:56:37Z erkin: zaifir: I think I see what you're getting at — that lists aren't strictly primitives like strings are, but are built from primitive pairs instead.
2020-06-20T17:56:50Z zaifir: erkin: Yes, that's what I mean.
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2020-06-20T17:57:05Z erkin: Now I get it.
2020-06-20T17:57:33Z zaifir: erkin: In a language like SML, lists are "primitive".
2020-06-20T17:57:39Z aeth: erkin: This is one of the key differences between Common Lisp and Scheme, actually. In Common Lisp, improper lists and proper lists are both lists, so in effect a list is just a cons cell or NIL. In Scheme, only proper lists are list?, making it a more distinct type from the cons pair.
2020-06-20T17:58:31Z erkin: zaifir: This isn't a thing unique to Scheme though. There are other functional languages that implement lists with pairs, such as Erlang.
2020-06-20T17:59:22Z aeth: zaifir: afaik in Scheme list? is O(n) since the only way to know if it's a proper list is to iterate it.
2020-06-20T17:59:24Z erkin: aeth: I suppose that puts lists in a strange place in Scheme where they are treated like they're primitives unlike CL but still aren't quite primitive.
2020-06-20T17:59:35Z aeth: zaifir: It's more efficient to just assume it's a proper list and error at the very end if it's not
2020-06-20T17:59:45Z erkin: Yeah, I think that's what they're saying.
2020-06-20T18:00:31Z zaifir: aeth: Right.
2020-06-20T18:01:45Z aeth: erkin: Idk, (1) I think CL had to do it the way it did with the type system it has (as opposed to Scheme, which really just has type predicates) because surprise O(n) type checking would be bad and (2) I really like CL's concept of a sequence hierarchy, even if improper lists sort of break it a bit since sequence functions rarely handle improper lists without erroring
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2020-06-20T18:02:26Z zaifir: Also, unlike the usual type-theory definitions, we can mix types in Lisp lists.
2020-06-20T18:02:47Z aeth: erkin: These days, the approach would probably be "iterable" instead of "sequence"... Or perhaps "ordered iterable" to distinguish them from hash tables
2020-06-20T18:02:58Z erkin: A solution to the improper list trouble: Make `cdr' return `nil' for every non-list.
2020-06-20T18:02:59Z zaifir: Which is convenient, even if it means some inferences about lists can't hold.
2020-06-20T18:03:06Z erkin: :-P
2020-06-20T18:03:15Z zaifir: Ew.
2020-06-20T18:03:15Z jcowan: There is a nice CL function ENDP which returns true if its value is (), false if it is a pair, and signals an error in all other cases.
2020-06-20T18:04:03Z jcowan: There was an earlier design of SRFI 1 in which all the list (not the pair) functions treated arbitrary objects as improper lists of length 0, but there were too many protests.
2020-06-20T18:04:43Z erkin: Huh
2020-06-20T18:05:16Z aeth: Of course, it's Scheme so you can replace anything you don't like, unlike with CL, where everything's in the giant, monolithic CL package and there's no automatic renaming, so this sort of thing would be discouraged, even if the packages would make it pretty clean to do (besides the lack of renaming).
2020-06-20T18:05:44Z aeth: I mean, there are a few attempts, but no one uses it, e.g. https://github.com/cl21/cl21
2020-06-20T18:05:50Z aeth: They tend to be too radical
2020-06-20T18:06:20Z jcowan nods
2020-06-20T18:06:21Z aeth: But Scheme's a lot more modular, no one will notice if you replace srfi 1 with srfi 999
2020-06-20T18:06:38Z aeth: Well, until they get surprised by some unexpected behavior
2020-06-20T18:06:41Z jcowan: They'll notice if they don't have SRFI 999, but at least a single fix
2020-06-20T18:09:56Z jcowan: end? should really ahve been part of SRFI 1, but at the time there was absolutely no standard way to signal an error (short of (/ 1 0) or something)
2020-06-20T18:11:54Z aeth: errors are surprisingly hard to get right, and are probably one of the weakest points of CL, since usually *which* error is unspecified and it's not very useful if it signals an error, but you don't know what it is and there are 3-4 possibilities
2020-06-20T18:12:01Z aeth: e.g. in CL:DESTRUCTURING-BIND
2020-06-20T18:14:15Z jcowan: Yes, they really should be co-designed with the system from its beginnings, but never are.
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2020-06-20T19:10:47Z theseb: So I've been enjoying writing a minimal Lisp and writing programs for it.  Lisp is definitely more *mathemtically* elegant than Python.  I want to believe I can develop FASTER in my Lisp-ish language than Python but it seems like the parens do slow down visual analysis of code....Now I may just be faster in Python because I've used it for nearly 17 years but not sure
2020-06-20T19:12:18Z erkin: It takes a while getting used the S-expressions.
2020-06-20T19:12:28Z erkin: Unfortunately quite many people give up before that.
2020-06-20T19:12:50Z erkin: I strongly recommend using structural typing software, such as paredit or parinfer.
2020-06-20T19:12:50Z theseb: erkin: thanks...makes sense
2020-06-20T19:12:59Z theseb: i've heard about that
2020-06-20T19:13:30Z erkin: It's a lifesaver. It helps you think of the code as parenthesis delimited lists instead of lines of characters.
2020-06-20T19:14:24Z theseb: erkin: i'll def check it out then tomorrow
2020-06-20T19:14:33Z erkin: :-)
2020-06-20T19:14:48Z erkin: structural coding* I meant
2020-06-20T19:15:33Z theseb: erkin: i've always heard parens take getting used to
2020-06-20T19:15:52Z theseb: erkin: and i already accepted them on principle
2020-06-20T19:16:05Z erkin: Great!
2020-06-20T19:16:15Z theseb: erkin: what you showed me that was really helpful was that the lisp experts meant something much deeper than just willing asent
2020-06-20T19:16:18Z theseb: ascent*
2020-06-20T19:17:03Z theseb: erkin: what you showed me is it means setting up a dev environment where you can see the structure of a program
2020-06-20T19:17:09Z theseb: instead of the characters
2020-06-20T19:17:42Z erkin: It's not about seeing but editing. It's a plugin for Emacs (although it's available for vim and probably other popular editors).
2020-06-20T19:18:02Z erkin: It rebinds your keys so that they don't work on lines or chunks of text but on lists.
2020-06-20T19:18:38Z erkin: It also makes sure that parentheses stay in balance.
2020-06-20T19:18:45Z erkin: http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html
2020-06-20T19:21:18Z erkin: https://shaunlebron.github.io/parinfer/ A newer one seemingly preferred by Clojure programmers instead. I haven't used it though.
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2020-06-20T19:28:42Z theseb: assent*
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2020-06-20T19:48:52Z jcowan: Lisp programmers never count parens any more than C programmers count braces: they infer a program's structure from indentation just like everyone else
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2020-06-20T20:10:59Z LeoNerd: Or the code-folding feature of my editor
2020-06-20T20:11:12Z LeoNerd: I usually start with maximal folding and unfold a layer at a time to peek inside things
2020-06-20T20:15:39Z theseb: LeoNerd: is code folding an emacs feature or something? do i need an app for that?
2020-06-20T20:16:49Z LeoNerd: I've no idea about emacs; I use vim. But I would imagine emacs has a similar thing
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2020-06-20T20:56:17Z zig: theseb: I do not use parinfer or paredit, I should look into it since many people talk about it. It looks to me like similar to what dvorak do for keyboard layout, but paredit does it for editing s-exp.
2020-06-20T20:57:31Z zig: it is available in several editors: https://shaunlebron.github.io/parinfer/#editor-plugins
2020-06-20T20:57:57Z wasamasa: the emacs implementation is an utter disgrace
2020-06-20T21:00:24Z Riastradh: parinfer sounds like crazy DWIM.
2020-06-20T21:01:27Z zig wants to see parinfer in ed.
2020-06-20T21:06:58Z jcowan: ex
2020-06-20T21:07:17Z jcowan: "I will trade a little standardosity for a little convenience."  --me
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2020-06-21T15:21:04Z zig: rudybot: what about serialization and encoding?
2020-06-21T15:21:07Z rudybot: zig: html5 is probably SGML (I don't know if it's still valid). THere is also XHTML5, an xml serialization of html5
2020-06-21T15:21:31Z zig: rudybot: your knowledge is not accurate.
2020-06-21T15:21:34Z rudybot: zig: Glad I could help spread accurate and well documented knowledge.
2020-06-21T15:21:40Z zig: :)
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2020-06-21T17:27:28Z jcowan: zig: It's true that no SGML DTD can describe all the rules of HTML, but the HTML 5.1 DTD does describe most of them.  This is not uncommon in the SGML world.
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2020-06-21T18:15:56Z zig: I only had a glimpse at SGML, I too late to the party.
2020-06-21T18:16:30Z zig: I am interested in the topic of validation / description language tho.
2020-06-21T18:17:15Z zig: whatever people think, I loved the xml validation programs.
2020-06-21T18:19:53Z zig: I could not get into JSON Schemas for some reason.
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2020-06-21T18:32:53Z zig: By the way, the "last call for comments" for SRFI-180 (JSON) was announced at https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-180/msg/14389008/
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2020-06-21T19:21:50Z jcowan: JSON schema designs suck, one and all
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2020-06-21T19:57:07Z erkin: Oof writing portable code is biting me again.
2020-06-21T20:00:37Z erkin: I wanted to get the size of the terminal. Instead of screwing with libraries, I decided to call `stty'. It prints two numbers separated by whitespace, so I imported SRFI-152 for `string-split'. Since it's printing to stdout, I needed `with-output-to-string' to obtain a string to split, which isn't in any SRFI or RnRS. I imported SRFI-6 for output string ports, then SRFI-39 to parameterise `current-output-port'. Then I realised even though nearly every
2020-06-21T20:00:37Z erkin: implementation calls the syscall procedure `system', it's not a part of any standard so I need to make separate files just to export that identifier for different implementations.
2020-06-21T20:01:28Z erkin: Fool's errand but at least good practice.
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2020-06-21T20:15:13Z jcowan: with-output-to-string is in both R6 and R7
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2020-06-21T20:16:35Z jcowan: at least it's trivial to compose: open-string-input-port and call-with-port
2020-06-21T20:17:20Z jcowan: we really need with-{in,out}put-to-file because they were already in R5RS; call-with-port does it all.
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2020-06-21T20:22:05Z erkin: Are you sure about R6RS?
2020-06-21T20:23:13Z erkin: It was a three-liner to implement it with other procedures though, yeah.
2020-06-21T20:26:43Z jcowan: (define (with-output-to-string str proc) (call-with-port (open-string-output-port str) proc))
2020-06-21T20:27:54Z erkin: That's better than my solution.
2020-06-21T20:29:05Z erkin: I did (define (with-output-to-string thunk) (let ((out (open-output-string))) (parameterize ((current-output-port out)) (thunk)) (get-output-string out)))
2020-06-21T20:29:17Z zig: guile has many variation on this topic, I find it misleading. With Chez, I never remember which one is binary which one is textual.
2020-06-21T20:31:27Z erkin: I used a threading macro for the procedure. (define (get-screen-size) (->> (thunk (system "stty size")) with-output-to-string string-split (map string->number) (apply values)))
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2020-06-21T20:50:43Z zig: how can (apply values) can work, where does values come from?
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2020-06-21T21:05:13Z erkin: It's the threading macro. ->> shoves the value through the final position of expressions.
2020-06-21T21:06:02Z erkin: So it's equivalent to (define (get-screen-size) (apply values (map string->number (string-split (with-output-to-string (thunk (system "stty size")))))))
2020-06-21T21:12:18Z zaifir: I can't tell whether threading macros just look weird or whether I've just been brain-damaged by the syntax of composition.
2020-06-21T21:14:05Z mdhughes: Note that `stty size` redirected may not give a real result. So I've found (system "stty size>stty.tmp") and reading that file is more reliable.
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2020-06-22T23:32:06Z wolfjb: Are there any good tutorials, examples, docs _anything_ on parsing/writing xml with scheme? I'm trying to use scheme to edit a recently-used.xbel file which is a freedesktop.org bookmark xml file of recently viewed files. I thought this would be an interesting place to start. I'm trying to drop nodes that match a criteria. I have the sxpath expression working which leaves me with a list of bookmarks to keep (ie a nodeset), but the root
2020-06-22T23:32:06Z wolfjb: node is gone
2020-06-22T23:32:31Z wolfjb: trying to add back the root node to the result set is kicking my butt.
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2020-06-22T23:33:48Z wolfjb: been reading SXML docs in both guile and gauche documentation, googleing for examples (which is hard as heck since google likes to try things like "hey did you mean schema xml ... instead" - duckduckgo has been better about not trying to fix my query)
2020-06-22T23:34:44Z wolfjb: anyway, its the last bit to get right, adding the root `<xbel ...>` node with namespaces and then writing to a file (simple enough using `with-output-to-file`).
2020-06-22T23:36:16Z wolfjb: any pointers, examples, links to docs, etc greatly appreciated :-)
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2020-06-22T23:41:46Z wolfjb: here is my rather cluttered bit of code where I'm trying out stuff - N.B. using Gauche scheme in this case. https://pastebin.com/LEw1G6Me
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2020-06-23T02:55:13Z rickbutton: wolfjb: can also consider srfi 107
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2020-06-23T14:07:14Z amirouche: seems like ConcurrentML-like channels are more general than regular async / await
2020-06-23T14:07:31Z amirouche: like done in C# or Javascript et al.
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2020-06-23T14:11:39Z Riastradh: yes -- specifically they can naturally be multiplexed.
2020-06-23T14:12:02Z Riastradh: Here's a Scheme implementation of cml: https://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/scheme-cml/
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2020-06-23T14:28:13Z amirouche: You are my HERO!
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2020-06-23T14:41:26Z amirouche: it seems to me it is simpler to implement the keyword `timemout` and the method `cancel` from asyncio, using channels.
2020-06-23T14:42:01Z amirouche: `cancel` need to be a message in the channel and should be handled by the receiver somehow.
2020-06-23T14:42:15Z amirouche: that is little bit more code to do for the user.
2020-06-23T14:46:30Z amirouche: something along: (let loop () (match (synchronize (channel-receive some-channel)) ('cancel (values)) ...)
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2020-06-23T14:59:52Z gwatt: That would allow users to accidentally ignore cancellations, which seems bad.
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2020-06-23T15:24:20Z amirouche: If I remember correctly (IIRC), the cancel can happen anytime await is called, which is not much better than "user having to take care"
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2020-06-23T16:36:37Z zig: Riastradh: is it possible to retrieve the whole folder... wget --mirror can do that.
2020-06-23T16:38:01Z zig: to be exact: wget --mirror --no-parent URL.
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2020-06-23T16:41:37Z Riastradh: Well, the traditional way is  darcs get https://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/scheme-cml  but I realize that's a bit quirky these days.
2020-06-23T16:41:50Z Riastradh: Somewhere I have a git conversion of those repositories that someone sent me but I forget where I put it.
2020-06-23T16:44:38Z zig: it works on ubuntu focal 20.04 (lts).
2020-06-23T16:45:01Z zig: I mean there is darcs command, darcs get URL works.
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2020-06-23T16:46:23Z Riastradh: cool
2020-06-23T16:48:59Z Riastradh: I appear to have lost that conversion, derp.
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2020-06-23T19:55:17Z msiism: A footnote on p. 89 of The Little Schemer tells me that (and …) and (or …) can be used to abbreviate (cond …) expressions. I get that in general, but I can make no sense of the examples given. The first one is: (and α β) = (cond (α β) (else #f)).
2020-06-23T19:56:30Z msiism: My problem is: In the (cond …) expression, alpha ab beta are just values, or seem to be. There is, in other words, no operation connecting them. How can this evaluate to anything?
2020-06-23T19:56:47Z msiism: s/ab/are
2020-06-23T19:57:26Z msiism gives up on correcting typos for this round
2020-06-23T19:59:09Z msiism: Okay, well, if α and β are placeholders for any S-expression, that would be different, I guess.
2020-06-23T20:00:15Z msiism tries an example.
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2020-06-23T20:02:41Z msiism is enlightened, to some extent.
2020-06-23T20:02:56Z Oxyd: (alpha beta), as a cond clause, will evaluate alpha and, if it evaluates to #t, evaluates beta and that's then returned as the value of the entire cond expression.
2020-06-23T20:04:18Z Oxyd: Well, I guess I should have said “if alpha evaluates to anything other than #f”.
2020-06-23T20:05:04Z msiism: I was probably confused by the parentheses, too. Becuase, contrary to that book, I use brackets for cond cases at all times. And I really wonder why that book does not. It greaty enhances readability.
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2020-06-23T20:06:07Z msiism: Oxyd: Oh, right, anything but #f is true, isn't it?
2020-06-23T20:06:37Z gwatt: It's not written for R6RS, which is the only scheme standard that mandates brackets
2020-06-23T20:06:57Z msiism looks up "mandate"
2020-06-23T20:07:03Z gwatt: requires
2020-06-23T20:07:30Z msiism: Yeah, that's what I thought that means.
2020-06-23T20:07:30Z gwatt: Looking at it now, I think I misused "mandates" and should have just said "requires"
2020-06-23T20:07:33Z Riastradh: it's a date with someone who won't shut up explaining your area of expertise to you
2020-06-23T20:08:02Z msiism: Riastradh: :)
2020-06-23T20:08:06Z Oxyd: Allows, more like. I don't think R6RS requires you to use them.
2020-06-23T20:08:34Z gwatt: Oxyd: R6RS requires that implementations support brackets as parentheses
2020-06-23T20:08:47Z msiism: So, the thing is simply that TLS was published before brackets were allowed/supported in Scheme then?
2020-06-23T20:13:07Z gwatt: msiism: yes, but I also think Friedman didn't particularly cared for R6RS. He certainly never talked about aby of the R6RS stuff in class.
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2020-06-23T20:14:13Z gwatt: Not even the library system, which might have been nice, at least compared to "just (load ...) these files"
2020-06-23T20:17:10Z msiism: I see. Well, I'll have to make it through TLS before dealing with any of that.
2020-06-23T20:17:36Z msiism: By the way, what would be a good way to proceed after having finished that book?
2020-06-23T20:18:00Z gwatt: What have you read so far?
2020-06-23T20:20:19Z msiism: gwatt: Roughly the first 90 pages of that book, worked through 4 chapters of HTDP, read at least the first part of TSPL, and the first 4 or so chapters of Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days.
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2020-06-23T20:25:49Z msiism: I was thinking that I should maybe just read through TSPL, then choose a Scheme (Chicken looks good, I think.), get familiar with it and start working on the projects I have in mind.
2020-06-23T20:27:10Z gwatt: msiism: I don't know what to recommend reading next, but just working on projects is always good
2020-06-23T20:28:18Z gwatt: Though TSPL into chicken might be a weird choice. TSPL is a more approachable version of R6RS and chicken is not R6RS
2020-06-23T20:28:48Z msiism: Oh…
2020-06-23T20:29:23Z msiism: Well, what is te POSIX sh equivalent of the Scheme world then? :)
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2020-06-23T20:30:43Z zig: search://scheme+shell returns https://scsh.net/
2020-06-23T20:30:49Z msiism: :D
2020-06-23T20:31:16Z zig: first time I see a scheme related search query work
2020-06-23T20:31:33Z gwatt: hahahahaha, there isn't one. Some people like R6RS, others emphatically Do Not, and prefer R5RS/R7RS, and consider R7RS the spiritual successor to R5RS
2020-06-23T20:32:09Z zig: msiism: look at https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-170/, it has POSIX stuff in the title ;)
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2020-06-23T20:32:56Z msiism bookmarks that
2020-06-23T20:33:15Z gwatt: msiism: As wingo put it in his blog, "to pick a scheme is to pick a tribe". https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2020-06-23T20:33:20Z zig: msiism: it has less sugar than scsh, and is inspired from scsh, scsh is not maintained i think
2020-06-23T20:33:38Z zig: pick scheme ;)
2020-06-23T20:34:11Z msiism: I see. I thought there would be something like a canonical implemenetation of a latest standard.
2020-06-23T20:34:30Z msiism: Or well, at least Schemes that are also that.
2020-06-23T20:34:38Z msiism: Well minus canonical then.
2020-06-23T20:34:55Z rgherdt: https://small.r7rs.org/wiki/ImplementationSupport/
2020-06-23T20:34:57Z gwatt: Well, if you prefer R7RS I believe that would be chibi. If you decide you don't prefer the latest standard, you have even more options
2020-06-23T20:35:21Z zig: the advantage of fragmentation is that people explore different ideas in parallel
2020-06-23T20:35:31Z gwatt: Just keep in mind, "latest standard" does not mean "does everything the last standard did + more"
2020-06-23T20:36:18Z msiism: I see. Should read that guide linked above.
2020-06-23T20:39:27Z rgherdt: the link I posted above is quite old, it refers to this one for a more up-to-date list of implementations supporting r7rs: https://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-work/blob/master/ImplementationSupport.md
2020-06-23T20:40:00Z msiism: As it seems, you can abuse Racket to run sifferent sorts of Scheme, too. So, maybe, I'll just use that. That's probably kind of similar to writing POSIX sh scripts and then running them in Bash – or Zsh, if you like that better.
2020-06-23T20:40:09Z msiism: rgherdt: Ok, thanks.
2020-06-23T20:42:10Z rgherdt: For learning r7rs I would say Racket is ok, but I'm not sure it's appropriated to work with r7rs, since it doesn't seem to flawlessly with normal racket libs.
2020-06-23T20:42:16Z jcowan: No, because Scheme favors having lots of implementations that vary almost, but not quite entirely, in all points.
2020-06-23T20:42:41Z rgherdt: *work flawlessly
2020-06-23T20:42:50Z msiism: jcowan: I see.
2020-06-23T20:43:00Z jcowan: by "No" I meant "no canonical implementation"
2020-06-23T20:43:06Z jcowan: THere is no equivalent of CPython or Oracle Java
2020-06-23T20:43:17Z jcowan: that everyone else has to keep up with
2020-06-23T20:43:54Z msiism: Okay, well, as long as it implements at least one standard completely, I can work with that.
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2020-06-23T20:49:45Z msiism: "And so it is that there is a steady rivulet of folks coming into the #scheme IRC channel asking what implementation to use." That's me… :)
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2020-06-23T20:55:40Z SpaceIgor2075: Standard lispy macros are easy, but I dont understand hygienic macros completely. Are there any good places to look for an understandable explanation in?
2020-06-23T20:57:33Z edgar-rft: isn't R1RS *the* canonical specification, or are there implementations that even deviate from R1RS?
2020-06-23T21:00:08Z Riastradh: heh
2020-06-23T21:00:36Z Riastradh: The earliest report that really begins to resemble modern Scheme was the R3RS.
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2020-06-23T21:05:05Z aeth: I'd say R4RS is where things become characteristic
2020-06-23T21:05:20Z aeth: iirc, R4RS has hygienic macros, but as an optional appendix
2020-06-23T21:06:05Z Riastradh: yes, the R4RS and the R5RS are almost the same, mostly just different in the macros.
2020-06-23T21:07:36Z msiism: Hm… looks like Chicken and Guile are probably the way to go for me.
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2020-06-23T21:13:10Z andrei-n: Hi.  Is there a scheme that works under DOS?
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2020-06-23T21:17:23Z wasamasa: there's some ancient lisp dialects that work there
2020-06-23T21:17:50Z wasamasa: like golden common lisp
2020-06-23T21:19:22Z wasamasa: lelisp is another one running on cp/m and some dos variant
2020-06-23T21:19:53Z wasamasa: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/lang/scheme/impl/pcscheme/pcs/0.html
2020-06-23T21:20:00Z wasamasa: this is used in the Programming Scheme book
2020-06-23T21:20:12Z wasamasa: R3RS :D
2020-06-23T21:20:17Z andrei-n: I know there were some weird prehistoric dialects (picolisp or something)...
2020-06-23T21:21:37Z wasamasa: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/SCM.html
2020-06-23T21:21:50Z andrei-n: Interesting.   Well, I don't know the difference in the standards, but it seems they are almost completely different languages.  Early versions were more like Common Lisp, later they introduced more and more differences...
2020-06-23T21:22:48Z wasamasa: if you're unlucky you'll have to compile it yourself with dlgpp
2020-06-23T21:22:50Z wasamasa: *djgpp
2020-06-23T21:22:53Z andrei-n: wow, that scm looks interesting, 2020.
2020-06-23T21:23:21Z wasamasa: it's written by the slib author
2020-06-23T21:23:53Z wasamasa: scm is related to guile somehow
2020-06-23T21:23:53Z andrei-n: I've always had bad experience with djgpp.  Nothing works: I've tried sqlite, joe, gforth, mc...  I couldn't compile anything.
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2020-06-23T23:21:47Z jcowan: R0RS and R1RS don't even define any procedures
2020-06-23T23:22:21Z jcowan: Picolisp isn't old as such, it's a radical simplification
2020-06-23T23:23:17Z jcowan: But the chnages from R2 to R3 to R4 to R5 (other than standardizing macros) are really very small.
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2020-06-24T05:08:56Z mdhughes: Most of your actual code is portable between anything from R5 on. The library/module/load system and "how do I make a shell script" are the big variants.
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2020-06-24T06:13:34Z aeth: well no one agrees on how to do Unix scripting with any multi-implementation language afaik... except sh, I guess
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2020-06-24T06:29:06Z terpri: rip scsh
2020-06-24T06:29:49Z terpri: (though unknown_lamer did port a decent chunk of scsh to guile a few years ago...)
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2020-06-24T06:41:30Z aeth: terpri: turn scsh into a SRFI!
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2020-06-24T08:05:06Z mdhughes: Most of it already is in the SRFIs.
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2020-06-24T08:11:33Z erkin: Oh wow LeLisp is now FOSS.
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2020-06-24T08:46:52Z terpri: aeth, not unless someone pays me for it, sorry :p my volunteering time is more than taken up with guix and guile hackery atm, beyond doing enough at $work to keep paying for food
2020-06-24T08:46:57Z terpri: aeth, it's a good idea though
2020-06-24T08:47:27Z terpri: erkin, really?? linkp?
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2020-06-24T08:48:47Z erkin: https://github.com/c-jullien/lelisp
2020-06-24T08:48:51Z terpri: http://christian.jullien.free.fr/lelisp/ :O
2020-06-24T08:49:14Z terpri: amazing
2020-06-24T08:49:14Z erkin: I successfully built it just now. It requires gcc, grep, awk, ed and termcap.
2020-06-24T08:49:30Z erkin: It's got a very messy directory structure.
2020-06-24T08:50:14Z terpri: haha, yeah. at least it uses autoconf/automake
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2020-06-24T08:56:32Z rgherdt: "The famous AI language of the 90's is still alive."   ... and then ... "Today Le-Lisp reaches its end of life." :)
2020-06-24T08:56:44Z erkin: Still not dead!
2020-06-24T08:57:44Z rgherdt: quoting from http://christian.jullien.free.fr/lelisp/ btw
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2020-06-24T09:25:55Z terpri: cool, the interpreter works at least
2020-06-24T09:27:24Z terpri: no "make install" :/
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2020-06-24T09:31:21Z dTal: I just want unboxed floats in Chez
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2020-06-24T10:31:02Z terpri: ok, with --enable-portable the repl ends up in source/C/lelisp
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2020-06-24T10:45:31Z erkin: terpri: If you're manually installing, make sure to use the newdir script or the absolute paths break.
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2020-06-24T11:54:45Z zaifir: aeth: Take a look at SRFIs 170 and 198.
2020-06-24T11:55:00Z zaifir: terpri: scsh isn't dead; it runs just fine.
2020-06-24T11:55:51Z zaifir: In general, Lisp code bit-rots very slowly.
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2020-06-24T13:13:35Z jcowan: SRFI 170 is based on the Posix chapter of scsh, though with many reductions
2020-06-24T13:15:00Z jcowan: and https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ProcessesCowan.md is a pre-SRFI on process control, though it does not have the syntax layer of scsh.
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2020-06-24T14:31:43Z terpri: zaifir, not dead maybe, but resting since 2006 ;)
2020-06-24T14:33:01Z terpri: erkin, i'm packaging it for guix actually, and learning that it really doesn't want to be installed into an immutable file store :)
2020-06-24T14:33:34Z foof: You stunned it, just as it was wakin' up!
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2020-06-24T14:36:12Z erkin: terpri: I tried to package it for Arch but it got too bothersome.
2020-06-24T14:36:19Z erkin: Mainly because it segfaults when I try to build the core files.
2020-06-24T14:36:37Z terpri: unknown_lamer's work was with an ancient version of guile so it's probably bitrotted more than scsh itself (but iirc was written in a relatively 'modern' style so shouldn't be terribly hard to update, just api churn etc. to account for, i'd imagine)
2020-06-24T14:37:34Z terpri: erkin, i haven't run into problems with the core files, but the world-writable vtty dir is bothersome
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2020-06-24T14:40:49Z erkin: terpri: Can you run ./lelisp? It loads ./lelispbin with ./llcore/lelisp.core or whatever
2020-06-24T14:41:02Z erkin: If the core files were compiled successfully, it should run.
2020-06-24T14:41:17Z erkin: Note that segfaults get drowned away in the make output. It doesn't terminate the build process.
2020-06-24T14:41:41Z terpri: erkin, also --enable-portable was critical for getting it to build under guix (where gcc -m32 doesn't work ootb), i think that makes it fall back to a portable C runtime which conceivably could help with core generation
2020-06-24T14:42:00Z erkin: Makes sense. I haven't tried that flag.
2020-06-24T14:42:58Z terpri: erkin, i got ./lelisp to run a repl where simple expressions worked, not sure what it loaded. i'll check the build logs for segfaults
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2020-06-24T14:43:22Z erkin: That means it was successful. It would've errored out otherwise.
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2020-06-24T14:46:03Z terpri: i'm going to try symlinking the vtty dir to /tmp/lelisp-vtty or something, and have a shell script make that dir (world-writably) and copy pregenerated vtty files into it if it doesn't exist. an awful hack but maybe it'll run
2020-06-24T14:46:56Z terpri: have a lelisp wrapper shell script*
2020-06-24T14:56:41Z erkin: No shame in wrapper scripts when you're packaging esoteric runtimes. :-)
2020-06-24T14:57:29Z erkin: OpenLisp refuses to run outside its libexec dir so I had to wrap the command between two `cd's when packaging it for Arch.
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2020-06-24T18:17:59Z aeth: scsh-as-a-SRFI would probably actually require at least a dozen SRFIs
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2020-06-24T18:38:22Z erkin: We could probably use half of those even if not for scsh.
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2020-06-24T18:54:26Z aeth: Right.
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2020-06-24T19:43:39Z zig: woohoo, spoiler: good news in the pipe.
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2020-06-24T19:44:05Z wasamasa: roll it up and smoke it
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2020-06-24T19:50:43Z zaifir: zig: Check the pipe buffer and look out for SIGPIPE!
2020-06-24T19:52:48Z zaifir: zig: Apropos of nothing, I just had the thought that zigterm.com would be a good hostname.
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2020-06-24T20:38:32Z mdhughes: Pity there's no .term TLD. I leaped on mdhughes.tech when .tech was added.
2020-06-24T20:40:13Z mdhughes: Consider zig.tube. There's a .zone, but is zig.zone right for you?
2020-06-24T20:41:14Z Riastradh: zaifir: always signal(SIGPIPE, SIG_IGN) (or signal(SIGPIPE, ignore_signal) with ignore_signal(int signo){return;} if you fork/exec anything so it doesn't get inherited)
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2020-06-24T21:08:21Z zig: sort
2020-06-24T21:08:37Z zig: oops
2020-06-24T21:08:54Z zig: hey do not be too much in a hurry, it will arrive on time ;)
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2020-06-24T22:49:11Z hussar: scheme looks bloated
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2020-06-25T11:37:44Z erkin: This might be a weird question but
2020-06-25T11:37:50Z erkin: Are there any CL implementations written in Scheme?
2020-06-25T11:38:01Z erkin: I know there are cases vice versa.
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2020-06-25T11:59:03Z zaifir: That would be an interesting project.
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2020-06-25T13:05:28Z Riastradh: erkin: not that I've heard of
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2020-06-25T13:40:01Z aeth: erkin: Writing CL in Scheme is harder than writing Scheme in CL because it's easier to write the smaller language inside of the larger language than the other way around. Even large Schemes typically lack a lot of CL features, like the array/sequence hierarchy and the 2-3 types of float (actually 4, but CL implementations very rarely have all 4 that are allowed)
2020-06-25T13:40:49Z aeth: The advanced, large CL features like that are low-level, unlike the advanced, large Scheme ones, which are often designed to be built on the smaller Scheme core.
2020-06-25T13:41:14Z aeth: My guess is that you'd pretty much have to write your own Scheme for it, rather than being portable.
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2020-06-25T15:21:22Z zaifir: SRFI 146/(scheme mapping) is a pretty rich library.
2020-06-25T15:21:52Z Riastradh: tax it
2020-06-25T15:22:03Z zaifir: With both R-B tree and hash-array mapped trie implementations of mappings in the same library, I think I'm mostly done with hash-table libraries.
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2020-06-25T15:25:00Z Riastradh: bet it doesn't support order statistics -- `find me the nth element in the sequence', or `tell me where in the sequence this element appears'
2020-06-25T15:25:18Z Riastradh: (weight-balanced trees do that naturally)
2020-06-25T15:28:37Z zaifir: Interesting, thanks.
2020-06-25T15:29:45Z Riastradh: (`wttree' in MIT Scheme)
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2020-06-25T15:47:51Z zig: it does not.
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2020-06-25T16:10:05Z jcowan: Of course, there's nothing to prevent someone from creating a (srfi 146) compatible library and adding it to the contrib directory in the repo.
2020-06-25T16:10:16Z jcowan: Multiple implementations are always a Good Thing.
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2020-06-25T16:15:31Z zig: there is always a tension between improving existing software and building new software, I mostly do the first in my dayjob (private source) and the second otherwise.
2020-06-25T16:16:59Z zaifir: zig: A good balance: build new tools that can be composed with existing tools.
2020-06-25T16:18:38Z Riastradh: better balance: delete old software
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2020-06-25T16:19:59Z zaifir: "Version control increases entropy cancer.  If people don't use it, delete it!" --Joe Armstrong
2020-06-25T16:23:02Z zig: I have good news regarding my "scaling up and scaling down wikidata" project. I did some xp, the initial claim I made is that SRFI-168 index factor for n=5 is 10, after importing 10G, actually I got 200G of used disk space. I implemented an optimization where string are replaced with with uuid4, that leads to 70G of used disk space, then I used an identifier allocator that is not monotonic, but grow the
2020-06-25T16:23:03Z zig: identifiers starting with one or two bytes (instead of 16 bytes for uuid4), the result is that the 10G text file, takes less than 10G after that last optimization.
2020-06-25T16:23:26Z zig: it is a dictionary-based compression "algorithm".
2020-06-25T16:26:03Z zig: That is, given wikidata was around 3TB let's say 4TB of plain text, I only need 4 * 3 = 12 TB of SSD with single replication to host the whole wikidata, which much more possible that the previous calculation that required 0.5PB
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2020-06-25T17:19:01Z jcowan: My problem is persuading people not to just comment out code that's no longer useful.  They are afraid to delete it, somehow, *even though* version control can always get it back.
2020-06-25T17:20:31Z jcowan: $EMPLOYER's current codebase actually has four different modules that do basically the same job, and only one of them is actually being invoked by the pipeline.  What's more, there are two separate and distinct pipelines, so that bug fixes have to be non-trivialy installed into each.
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2020-06-25T18:19:54Z tolja: You can get the deleted code back but you never go looking for it
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2020-06-25T18:23:47Z Oxyd: If you don't go looking for it, then you don't need it.
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2020-06-25T18:29:24Z jcowan: Oxyd: Only up to a point.  If you weren't there when it was removed, you probably won't know it exists at all.
2020-06-25T18:30:47Z Oxyd: Why would you want to restore code you didn't even know existed, though?
2020-06-25T18:30:51Z jcowan: One of the points I always liked about svn is that the working directory is (or at least can be, doesn't have to be) a tree of *all* the branches, not just the current branch; you can grep them collectively
2020-06-25T18:31:00Z jcowan: Because it does what you want after all.
2020-06-25T18:31:09Z jcowan: People can and do change their minds
2020-06-25T18:31:26Z zig: fossil can do what svn does I think.
2020-06-25T18:31:35Z Oxyd: Usually what happens is you find a bug in some part, do a git blame, find out what change broke it and take it from there. If it was broken in a rewrite, you'll see the rewrite in blame, even if it was written years before you joined the project.
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2020-06-25T18:32:19Z jcowan: Not if the code is gone altogether: blame won't report on it.
2020-06-25T18:32:28Z Oxyd: Blame will report on the new code.
2020-06-25T18:34:18Z Oxyd: Only problem is if it's an entire feature that was completely removed. And now, years later, someone decides to re-add it back. But in that case, I'd expect my coworkers to let me know it used to be implemented. And chances are that code that old won't work with the current codebase anyway.
2020-06-25T18:34:53Z jcowan: No, but it's better to have non-integrated code than having to write it from scratch (and re-create all the bugs).
2020-06-25T18:35:02Z jcowan: This is on my mind now because I'm doing precisely that.
2020-06-25T18:35:21Z jcowan: And "feature" can be made as small as you want.
2020-06-25T18:35:52Z Oxyd: Perhaps, I don't think littering the entire codebase with commented out code is worth it.
2020-06-25T18:35:57Z jcowan: #1: "Oh, we need this code to fix this bug."  #2: "No we don't because X, removing it."  #3: "Oops, we need it after all if both X and Y"
2020-06-25T18:36:14Z jcowan: Oh no, I'm not arguing for commented-out code, on the contrary.
2020-06-25T18:36:27Z jcowan: I'm just pointing out that deleting it (which I do) can have a downside.
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2020-06-26T01:08:11Z mdhughes: So make a wiki, and dump your explanation and removed code there, and someone who goes looking can search the wiki.
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2020-06-26T01:09:34Z mdhughes: Most jobs I've gone to, I've set up https://twiki.org or such, leave a ton of notes there. If I get even a few other people using it, it's better than shouting into a mailing list dumpster, or a deleted branch of source control.
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2020-06-26T02:45:30Z aeth: mdhughes: you don't use the wiki software that Scheme Wiki uses? http://community.schemewiki.org/
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2020-06-26T03:38:23Z mdhughes: No. Used to use the c2wiki software, but twiki's more reliable and has media support.
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2020-06-26T03:40:00Z mdhughes: If you click on the wiliki link, it's 404.
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2020-06-26T03:40:58Z mdhughes: Has since moved to http://practical-scheme.net/wiliki/wiliki.cgi
2020-06-26T03:46:45Z mdhughes: Might be an interesting project to get a simple c2-style wiki up as a cgi.
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2020-06-27T13:20:04Z zig: Riastradh: re scheme-cml: there is no reference to call/cc, select or epoll, I think all this is linked.
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2020-06-27T15:16:34Z Riastradh: zig: Here is how it hooks up to select in MIT Scheme (or at least, how it did ten years ago; probably doesn't work in MIT Scheme today): https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/mit-io-rv.scm
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2020-06-28T20:27:58Z erkin: It's here! https://0x0.st/iJp0.jpg
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2020-06-28T21:07:39Z duncanm: Riastradh: do you use an ARM64 machine as your main computer now?
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2020-06-29T00:10:43Z duncanm: hmm
2020-06-29T00:10:59Z duncanm: I'm trying to use match.scm from Chibi Scheme on Kawa, but it doesn't work on records
2020-06-29T00:11:19Z duncanm: it seems to use SLOT-REF, I didn't know that's defined in SRFI 9
2020-06-29T00:11:32Z zaifir: It's not
2020-06-29T00:12:14Z zaifir: There's no portable way to match records, AFAIK.  I've tried and come up with the simplistic-ness of define-record-type.
2020-06-29T00:12:22Z zaifir: s/up with/up against/
2020-06-29T00:12:50Z duncanm: so if I want to make it work, i'll need to hack the match macro itself?
2020-06-29T00:13:03Z zaifir: Yes.
2020-06-29T00:13:54Z zaifir: It'll depend on Kawa's internal procedures for working with records.  It might be a small change.
2020-06-29T00:15:05Z duncanm: it looks like slot-ref and slot-set! is what it uses
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2020-06-29T01:03:16Z jcowan: match.scm needs to have the Chibi-specific bits, boxes and records, removed.
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2020-06-29T01:20:04Z duncanm: there are 3 variants that I saw, match-simple, match-cond-expand and match
2020-06-29T01:22:24Z duncanm: it says
2020-06-29T01:22:29Z duncanm: ;; Variant of match.scm, a few non-portable bits of code are
2020-06-29T01:22:29Z duncanm: ;; conditioned out with COND-EXPAND, notably allowing matching of the
2020-06-29T01:22:29Z duncanm: ;; `...' literal.
2020-06-29T01:25:30Z zaifir: Is the special meaning of the _ formal parameter in R7 or R6?  If so, could someone remind me as to where?
2020-06-29T01:27:37Z zaifir: (I mean in lambda parameter lists, not the _ pattern variable in syntax-rules.)
2020-06-29T01:28:19Z foof: http://synthcode.com/scheme/match.scm is portable (none of the Chibi-specific extensions)
2020-06-29T01:28:41Z foof: the match.scm in Chibi's github has extensions
2020-06-29T01:30:52Z duncanm: foof: i think that version has SLOT-REF for records?
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2020-06-29T01:49:01Z zaifir: Hmm, I guess underscore-as-blank-argument isn't in any Scheme report.  Why did I think it was?
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2020-06-29T01:51:35Z tramplefoot: does r5rs have a cl trace equivalent?
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2020-06-29T02:05:06Z duncanm: this is kinda cool: https://github.com/axch/pattern-case/blob/master/pattern-matching.txt
2020-06-29T02:24:30Z foof: duncanm: my bad, match-simple.scm is the portable version
2020-06-29T02:25:08Z duncanm: yeah, but that version doesn't handle records, alas
2020-06-29T02:25:14Z foof: ... although match.scm won't expand into slot-ref unless you actually use a record pattern, so it shouldn't even give warnings on other systems :)
2020-06-29T02:25:58Z duncanm: i'm trying to understand what slot-ref and slot-set! does
2020-06-29T02:26:38Z duncanm: it goes (slot-ref rec v n) so i'm guessing that's
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2020-06-29T02:26:47Z duncanm: (slot-ref record instance name)
2020-06-29T02:27:06Z duncanm: oh hmm, i think i get it
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2020-06-29T07:47:09Z Riastradh: duncanm: no but the pinebook and pb pro are cute
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2020-06-29T20:53:03Z duncanm: Any mac users of MIT Scheme here?
2020-06-29T20:53:17Z duncanm: I made this PR to improve MIT Scheme in Homebrew, but they just won't merge it in
2020-06-29T20:53:41Z bitmapper: i'm here
2020-06-29T20:54:15Z duncanm: bitmapper: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/pull/55136 maybe you can give this a try
2020-06-29T20:54:59Z bitmapper: ahh
2020-06-29T20:55:17Z bitmapper: sorry, i've already got mit-scheme x86_64 installed in /usr/local
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2020-06-29T20:59:41Z duncanm: bitmapper: did you do it manually?
2020-06-29T20:59:46Z bitmapper: yeah
2020-06-29T21:01:13Z duncanm: well, either way, maybe it'd help if you upvote or something, i dunno how to get someone from Homebrew to take a look
2020-06-29T21:01:53Z bitmapper: will do
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2020-06-29T21:56:37Z mdhughes: Mac, but always just used the installer for mit-scheme.
2020-06-29T21:59:49Z mdhughes: The builtin paths are weird, maybe look at the sources and see why those are there, and post an explanation?
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2020-06-29T23:19:28Z duncanm: mdhughes: I upgraded my home desktop to Catalina today, and I saw that it wouldn't run the installer saying that they couldn't verify
2020-06-29T23:21:00Z duncanm: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/IOqXyRll/image.png
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2020-06-29T23:36:46Z duncanm: looks like 10.1.11 came out, maybe I can make the PR be about that
2020-06-30T00:00:39Z mdhughes: And the new one won't run because I'm still on Mojave.
2020-06-30T00:01:00Z mdhughes: Which is rude, normally Mac apps support 1-2 OS versions back.
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2020-06-30T00:40:47Z mr_ab: Hey guys, so I don't know a lick of scheme.  I'm sorry.  But I've been meddling with writing a compiler/language, and was reading about this feature of scheme called a "continuation"
2020-06-30T00:41:07Z mr_ab: is it possible to explain this to a C dev?
2020-06-30T00:42:01Z mr_ab: I mean, it's like a stack frame + a pointer to where code execution is at, that I can resume ?
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2020-06-30T00:49:46Z aeth: mr_ab: There are several different implementation strategies for continuations. Here's Chicken Scheme's internals (in C): https://www.more-magic.net/posts/internals-gc.html
2020-06-30T01:01:43Z Riastradh: mr_ab: You can think of it as a snapshot of the stack and code pointer, yes.
2020-06-30T01:03:13Z Riastradh: Package it up into an object that you can later use to recreate the same stack and return to the same code pointer and pick up where you left off, passing a new return value.
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2020-06-30T05:01:59Z duncanm: Riastradh: hey hey, so the homebrew people now care that the binaries out of a build don't include references to their shims directory
2020-06-30T05:02:08Z duncanm: mit-scheme:
2020-06-30T05:02:08Z duncanm:   * Files were found with references to the Homebrew shims directory.
2020-06-30T05:02:08Z duncanm:     The offending files are:
2020-06-30T05:02:08Z duncanm:       lib/mit-scheme-x86-64/runtime.com
2020-06-30T05:02:08Z duncanm:       lib/mit-scheme-x86-64/all.com
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2020-06-30T05:02:58Z duncanm: maybe it's this?
2020-06-30T05:03:12Z duncanm: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fTtOsPQj/
2020-06-30T05:04:20Z duncanm: https://discourse.brew.sh/t/how-to-fix-references-to-the-homebrew-shims-directory/8060/3
2020-06-30T05:05:46Z duncanm: what's being recorded in runtime.com and all.com?
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2020-06-30T05:11:50Z duncanm: i think i figured out how to fix this
2020-06-30T05:11:53Z Riastradh: Probably some comes from scheme-subprocess-environment, which strikes me as not really necessary.
2020-06-30T05:12:11Z duncanm: hmm, mayhbe not
2020-06-30T05:12:19Z duncanm: it's recorded in config.log, but that's not it
2020-06-30T05:13:38Z duncanm: Riastradh: if I could just copy the com files from the prebuilt binaries, then I'll be including files that don't include this silly shims thing
2020-06-30T05:13:51Z Riastradh: shims thing?
2020-06-30T05:14:31Z duncanm: > Homebrew adds a folder of shims to some system utilities (the C/C++ compiler suite, make, pkg-config, etc.) to ensure that the build environment is consistent. Sometimes, software likes to record the full path of the compiler that was used, and some even like to embed the entire output of env into the program at some point during the build process.
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2020-06-30T05:22:55Z Riastradh: Hm.  The environment still gets baked in there somewhere.
2020-06-30T05:23:55Z duncanm: and if i use the copy that I build myself, it has
2020-06-30T05:24:03Z duncanm: t/private/tmp/mit-scheme-20200630-23634-judqpj/mit-scheme-10.1.11/staging/bin:/usr/local/Homebrew/Library/Homebrew/shims/mac/super:/usr/local/opt/openssl@1.1/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin
2020-06-30T05:24:05Z Riastradh: ah
2020-06-30T05:24:15Z duncanm: if i use the copy from the tar.gz, it has cph's stuff in it
2020-06-30T05:24:21Z duncanm: t/home/cph/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games:/usr/local/games
2020-06-30T05:24:53Z duncanm: this shows up only in all.com and runtime.com
2020-06-30T05:25:53Z duncanm: > It can be tricky trying to remove the inclusion from the path - the goal is to get the build system to keep using the shim without recording the fact that it did in fact use the shim. Replacing/patching too early in the process can cause the Homebrew shim system to be bypassed altogether, which can, in some packages, lead to subtle bugs that will be hard to track down.
2020-06-30T05:26:11Z Riastradh: heh
2020-06-30T05:26:25Z Riastradh: Two different primitives for getting a copy of environ.
2020-06-30T05:26:55Z Riastradh: Added 28 years apart.
2020-06-30T05:26:59Z Riastradh: Author: Chris Hanson <org/chris-hanson/cph>
2020-06-30T05:27:00Z Riastradh: Date:   Thu Nov 8 11:04:37 1990 +0000
2020-06-30T05:27:00Z Riastradh:     * (make-subprocess): Now accepts #F as third arg, meaning
2020-06-30T05:27:00Z Riastradh:       give Scheme's process environment to the subprocess.
2020-06-30T05:27:00Z Riastradh:     
2020-06-30T05:27:02Z Riastradh:     * (scheme-environment): New primitive returns Scheme's process
2020-06-30T05:27:05Z Riastradh:       environment in a form suitable for passing to `make-subprocess'.
2020-06-30T05:27:07Z Riastradh: Author: Chris Hanson <org/chris-hanson/cph>
2020-06-30T05:27:10Z Riastradh: Date:   Sun May 13 19:43:57 2018 -0700
2020-06-30T05:27:12Z Riastradh: Implement get-environment-variables for R7RS.
2020-06-30T05:28:26Z duncanm: wow
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2020-06-30T06:14:09Z Riastradh: hey I found a LIAR bug
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2020-06-30T06:21:16Z Riastradh: duncanm: OK, I just pushed changes to avoid saving the environment in bands two different ways.
2020-06-30T06:21:36Z duncanm: fun fun
2020-06-30T06:21:48Z Riastradh: Some pathnames still remain, but at least the shims should be gone.
2020-06-30T06:21:55Z duncanm: oh!
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2020-06-30T06:22:12Z duncanm: I pushed a commit to use the all.com and runtime.com from cph
2020-06-30T06:22:29Z duncanm: maybe I can back that out when the next releases out, the one with your new commits
2020-06-30T06:22:45Z Riastradh: I think homebrew would be unhappy with using all.com or runtime.com from cph except for the initial bootstrap.
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2020-06-30T06:24:59Z duncanm: huh, we'll see what they say
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2020-06-30T06:29:35Z Riastradh: Having the upstream all.com/runtime.com, rather than a new one built from source, was essentially their entire objection to using the mit-scheme-x86-64-10.whatever.tar.gz binary distribution.
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2020-06-30T06:49:04Z duncanm: Riastradh: they won't even look at my PR unless I can get all the checks green, so if they object to that, I'll tell them to take that cp snippet back out and let me merge the PR in with the shims issue in all.com / runtime.com, until your commits make it into the next release
2020-06-30T06:55:53Z Riastradh *zzz*
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2020-06-30T20:39:07Z duncanm: Riastradh: hahaha, they took my commit ;-)
2020-06-30T20:39:23Z duncanm: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/pull/57127#event-3499542258
2020-06-30T20:40:05Z duncanm: I'll take the snippet out when the next release comes with your patches included
2020-06-30T20:40:23Z Riastradh: uhh heh OK
2020-06-30T20:40:34Z Riastradh: I suspect they didn't understand the change, but fine, can fix it with next version.
2020-06-30T20:46:02Z wasamasa: doesn't matter, awesome contribution
2020-06-30T20:46:41Z zig: :)
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2020-06-30T21:02:38Z erkin: duncanm: I don't see anything out of the ordinary.
2020-06-30T21:03:47Z duncanm: erkin: if you read Riastradh's note above, they'd prefer that we only install bits that we build ourselves
2020-06-30T21:04:01Z erkin: Oh yeah, I should've scrolled up.
2020-06-30T21:08:03Z erkin: Oh now I see.
2020-06-30T21:08:06Z erkin: Hahah
2020-06-30T21:08:27Z erkin: That's really sneaky.
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2020-06-30T21:31:26Z jcowan: mdhughes: Pretty much nothing works on Catalina unless it has been rebuilt for Catalina, is my experience.
2020-06-30T21:43:55Z Riastradh: jcowan: i definitely don't work on catalina
2020-06-30T21:44:16Z jcowan: A pity, perhaps it would be less problematic
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2020-06-30T22:13:25Z zaifir: Riastradh: You can be rebuilt.  We have the technology.
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2020-06-30T22:19:18Z Freebird: Hey
2020-06-30T22:20:02Z Freebird: Wassup
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