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2020-05-01T07:12:52Z amirouche: is there any lisp compiled to wasm that allows interop with javascript (unlike schism) compiled wihtout emscripten?
2020-05-01T07:16:17Z amirouche: (a friend got me into a challenge about wasm)
2020-05-01T07:17:24Z mdhughes: Does Gerbil's web compile do wasm or just JS?
2020-05-01T07:17:50Z amirouche: what is gerbi's web?
2020-05-01T07:20:42Z vyzo: it's js
2020-05-01T07:21:06Z vyzo: I discussed this with Marc actually, and he mentioned that he didn't see the point of compiling to wasm because it's the same backend
2020-05-01T07:22:07Z amirouche: what does it mean that it is the same backend?
2020-05-01T07:22:42Z amirouche: the universal backend?
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2020-05-01T07:25:19Z amirouche: afaiu wasm can speed up the trampoline
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2020-05-01T07:26:25Z mdhughes: (does? (gerbil's (web compile)) (do (or wasm js)))
2020-05-01T07:27:06Z mdhughes: It ought to be faster in wasm, there's a lot of overhead in JS semantics and functions, even using the simplest "assembly-like" calls.
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2020-05-01T08:56:05Z vyzo: I actually agree with you
2020-05-01T08:56:17Z vyzo: plus it would have targets other than browsers if wasm really takes off
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2020-05-01T09:23:05Z amirouche: one can not really predict where wasm will go, for a big project such gambit, I understand Marc is not interested, yet.
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2020-05-01T15:05:50Z wasamasa: amirouche: https://www.opencypher.org/articles/2019/09/12/SQL-and-now-GQL/
2020-05-01T15:16:48Z amirouche: tx!
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2020-05-01T15:17:53Z wasamasa: so it seems there are other countries pushing for cypher to become a standard
2020-05-01T15:18:27Z Riastradh: ...that is a confusing use of the word `cypher'
2020-05-01T15:21:17Z wasamasa: yeah, it is
2020-05-01T15:21:29Z wasamasa: nevertheless a useful language to know when doing graph queries
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2020-05-01T17:25:14Z msiism: I'm experiencing a considerable amount of frustration trying to learn Scheme. And it is my impression that this frustration is fueled considerably by how the books I've had a look at (HTDP, TSPL, The Little Schemer) try to teach the language or its concepts.
2020-05-01T17:26:37Z msiism: That method seems to be, more or less, to teach it all from the ground up. This means it takes a lot of time and effort to arrive at a state where you have applicable knowledge of the language.
2020-05-01T17:27:15Z msiism: This collides with the – IMO reasonable – sentiment of a beginner to want to know how to do something, but not wanting know everything.
2020-05-01T17:29:52Z msiism: I wonder whether the are introductions to Scheme that take a more practical approach. Because I think I really like the language and would like to keep learning it, but not the way I'm doing it, currently.
2020-05-01T17:31:40Z Riastradh: TSPL is more of a reference manual, not a tutorial.
2020-05-01T17:31:53Z msiism: Yeah, I figured. :)
2020-05-01T17:31:55Z wasamasa: honestly, I'm not sure what the alternative would be
2020-05-01T17:32:07Z wasamasa: "Copy-paste this into your editor to have a snazzy game"
2020-05-01T17:32:29Z wasamasa: is that what you're looking for?
2020-05-01T17:32:36Z msiism: wasamasa: Obviously not.
2020-05-01T17:32:47Z pinoaffe: msiism: https://guix.gnu.org/cookbook/en/html_node/A-Scheme-Crash-Course.html this seems to be more of the type of approach you're interested in, but does not reach beyond the most basic of abilities
2020-05-01T17:32:54Z msiism: wasamasa: I can give you an example. Give me a minute.
2020-05-01T17:33:36Z wasamasa: replace snazzy game with whatever your objective is
2020-05-01T17:33:48Z wasamasa: like downloading html, playing sound, ...
2020-05-01T17:33:53Z pinoaffe: wasamasa: I'd say they're looking for a "less mathematically rigorous" introduction to / tutorial for scheme
2020-05-01T17:34:14Z pinoaffe: aka, introducing concepts without a solid foundation to build upon
2020-05-01T17:34:18Z wasamasa: if that were the case, then I'm sure SICP would have been mentioned
2020-05-01T17:34:26Z wasamasa: because that's the epitome of that approach
2020-05-01T17:34:56Z msiism: wasamasa: Here's the FreeBASIC Primer: https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=ProPgPrimer1 This may have it's flaws. But it gives you practical knowledge that wants you (well, me) to go on study the language right away.
2020-05-01T17:35:19Z wasamasa: funny, I found the freebasic website useless to figure out how to do things
2020-05-01T17:35:36Z wasamasa: because it assumed I don't even know what a procedure is
2020-05-01T17:35:39Z msiism: Well, it may trun out to be later. But the primer is fine.
2020-05-01T17:36:08Z wasamasa: there's a website dedicated to primers
2020-05-01T17:36:18Z wasamasa: https://learnxinyminutes.com/
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2020-05-01T17:37:06Z wasamasa: https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/CHICKEN/ and https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/racket/ are featured there
2020-05-01T17:37:44Z msiism: I see. I'll have a look at that.
2020-05-01T17:38:06Z pinoaffe: wasamas: in my experience sicp has still got more "rigour" than a lot of other approaches to teaching programming (which, at that level, is a good thing imo)
2020-05-01T17:38:31Z wasamasa: you'll want to use the tab key
2020-05-01T17:42:24Z msiism: wasamasa: Apropos my goal: I basically want to write programs with a POSIX-y command-line interface. For example, a bookmark manager. So, when I started out with Scheme, it quickly felt like i'm going to take ages to arrive at being able to do this.
2020-05-01T17:42:53Z pinoaffe: wasamasa: thanks for the tip :)
2020-05-01T17:43:15Z wasamasa: msiism: yes, I felt similar with many programming language books that don't explain more than the standard provides
2020-05-01T17:43:35Z wasamasa: msiism: in the real world you'll pick an implementation, learn its libraries and idioms and piece something together with that
2020-05-01T17:43:58Z wasamasa: msiism: both entries on that website work fine for your purpose, there's of course more
2020-05-01T17:45:04Z msiism: Ok. Thanks. I really do want to learn more. But not being able to “really do anything” just kills my motivation while, on the other hand, being able to do things fuels my wanting to dig deeper.
2020-05-01T17:45:24Z wasamasa: the standard covers just enough to write basic interpreters and compilers
2020-05-01T17:45:52Z wasamasa: there are scheme books that embrace the capabilities of their chosen implementation more
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2020-05-01T17:45:58Z wasamasa: unfortunately they tend to be outdated
2020-05-01T17:46:39Z msiism: pinoaffe: Thanks for the link, by the way.
2020-05-01T17:46:45Z wasamasa: http://ds26gte.github.io/tyscheme/ uses racket's precursor, Programming in Scheme what resembles mit-scheme today
2020-05-01T17:59:05Z msiism: wasamasa: The preface of that book gives a really good description of what I'm looking for: “something a novice can use to get a non-trivial working knowledge of the language, before moving on to more comprehensive and in-depth texts”
2020-05-01T17:59:40Z wasamasa: I found the examples of Programming in Scheme interesting and ported a graphics one to CHICKEN for fun
2020-05-01T18:00:12Z wasamasa: aside from having to implement graphics procedures the remaining code ran unchanged
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2020-05-01T18:18:34Z mdhughes: Realm of Racket, being an adaptation of Land of Lisp, should be pretty fast to reach "code a text game".
2020-05-01T18:19:41Z mdhughes: My practice for Scheme was just doing the Advent of Code problems, and reading thru the spec & TSPL to find out how.
2020-05-01T18:20:38Z mdhughes: But I'd also written MIT/Scheme long ago and kept using those programs, so I wasn't completely unfamiliar.
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2020-05-01T18:39:47Z msiism: “Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days” seems to be really good. I think I'll go with that now.
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2020-05-01T18:47:43Z wasamasa: while you're at it, port it to racket :>
2020-05-01T18:50:01Z rgherdt: for racket there is also this one: https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~plragde/flaneries/TYR/
2020-05-01T18:50:29Z msiism: I'm not sure, I'm really gonna go for Racket in the end. I started out with HTDP, then began reading the Racket Guide, then discovered TSPL, which is great, but a bit too much for me at the moment.
2020-05-01T18:52:30Z msiism: Racket seems to be like sort of an uber-Scheme.
2020-05-01T18:54:28Z msiism: I'll need some time to understand that better and see the merit.
2020-05-01T18:54:52Z amirouche: msiism: you are the person, that hates lambda in lambda passed as values?
2020-05-01T18:56:18Z msiism: amirouche: I'm not sure about that.
2020-05-01T18:56:39Z amirouche: check out https://paste.gnome.org/pfbkfltga
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2020-05-01T18:57:17Z msiism: Why would anyone do that?
2020-05-01T18:57:35Z amirouche: compilation to js via trampoline and continuation passing style
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2020-05-01T18:57:43Z amirouche: I will show you the original code
2020-05-01T18:58:08Z amirouche: https://paste.gnome.org/pumibvmfx
2020-05-01T18:58:39Z msiism: That looks much better.
2020-05-01T18:59:02Z amirouche: msiism: please mind the fact, I am not sure what I doing, I applied recipes almost at random, but factorial at least is not limited by javascript stack limit
2020-05-01T18:59:53Z amirouche: it is a good sign
2020-05-01T19:00:09Z amirouche: and gives the correct result
2020-05-01T19:00:14Z msiism: amirouche: If you're not sure what you're doing, you probably shouldn't ask me about it – at least if it's Scheme. I'm just a beginner.
2020-05-01T19:00:42Z amirouche: you are correct, I should not scare you :o)
2020-05-01T19:00:57Z amirouche: just kidding
2020-05-01T19:01:13Z msiism: amirouche: I'm not scared by Javascript. I simply block it. :)
2020-05-01T19:01:50Z amirouche: ahah
2020-05-01T19:02:16Z amirouche: me too, but not on my professional laptop, so that google think I am a casual geek
2020-05-01T19:05:15Z msiism: I mean, in TSPL, procedures are mostly defined like, well, other objects, only using lambda. I understand that's good for understanding, but for really doing things, I'd always use “defun”-style function definitions, unless I need an anonymous function and actually really have to use lamda.
2020-05-01T19:05:15Z amirouche: since I got burned with facebook, I have to try google at least in a lifetime.
2020-05-01T19:05:34Z amirouche: me too
2020-05-01T19:05:47Z amirouche: that is Chez scheme people that do that afaik
2020-05-01T19:06:03Z amirouche: s/burned/blacklisted/
2020-05-01T19:07:00Z amirouche: I told facebook I wanted to build a p2p social network, HR never replied to the first call.
2020-05-01T19:13:25Z wasamasa: why should they?
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2020-05-02T06:24:18Z mdhughes: https://medium.com/@peternorvig/ive-consed-every-pair-54ef5d9d93b6
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2020-05-02T08:02:48Z amirouche: wasamasa: re GQL Graph Query Language, I really tried to avoid it for a long time, but now that it is a standard, FOMO, I need to read about it.
2020-05-02T08:02:58Z amirouche: GQL is neo4j cypher query language more or less
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2020-05-02T08:56:01Z wasamasa: yup
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2020-05-02T18:57:18Z amirouche: I keep rewriting the same thing over and over again.
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2020-05-02T19:00:15Z amirouche: s/rewriting/coding/
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2020-05-02T19:08:38Z TheGreekOwl: Yes hello
2020-05-02T19:09:45Z TheGreekOwl: I have here this book, structure and interpretation of computer programs
2020-05-02T19:10:00Z TheGreekOwl: Whats a good scheme program where I can mess around with that works on windows?
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2020-05-02T19:40:17Z amirouche: TheGreekOwl: windows might be the offender
2020-05-02T19:40:34Z TheGreekOwl: AS in?
2020-05-02T19:40:41Z TheGreekOwl: Im downloading Racket to see if it works
2020-05-02T19:40:55Z wasamasa: yeah, see if racket works, everything else is bound to be less polished
2020-05-02T19:41:12Z wasamasa: for example to get CHICKEN working you'd need to install a non-microsoft C compiler toolchain
2020-05-02T19:41:21Z wasamasa: and compile it with that
2020-05-02T19:41:51Z TheGreekOwl: Oh.
2020-05-02T19:42:02Z TheGreekOwl: I dont have another PC, i'm kinda poor.
2020-05-02T19:42:17Z wasamasa: what amirouche tried to say is that windows generally is a developer-hostile platform
2020-05-02T19:42:37Z TheGreekOwl: I'm a noob programmer, I do art but I want to learn
2020-05-02T19:42:47Z TheGreekOwl: Why is it dev hostile?
2020-05-02T19:43:00Z wasamasa: it assumes its users are idiots
2020-05-02T19:43:10Z wasamasa: this is not good if you want to develop software
2020-05-02T19:43:37Z wasamasa: the tools you get behave weirdly and question your intentions
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2020-05-02T19:43:58Z wasamasa: their workings are half documented and defy any common sense
2020-05-02T19:44:13Z wasamasa: the officially sanctioned toolchain doesn't play nice with others
2020-05-02T19:44:27Z wasamasa: the alternatives are painful to set up and feel out of place
2020-05-02T19:44:43Z TheGreekOwl: Again, noob, so how much should I worry?
2020-05-02T19:44:59Z TheGreekOwl: I'm planning on getting a latpop, can I just dual-install windows and linux or something?
2020-05-02T19:45:01Z mdhughes: I was able to use Chez on Windows. I know nothing about the Windows, but it runs and can load libraries from its directory, so all good.
2020-05-02T19:45:01Z wasamasa: ESR compared it to learning to dance in a straightjacket
2020-05-02T19:45:10Z wasamasa: yes, it's possible, but not fun
2020-05-02T19:45:34Z wasamasa: it's no wonder windows people instead turned to JS as their way out and a bridge towards linux :D
2020-05-02T19:45:42Z TheGreekOwl: Whats JS?
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2020-05-02T19:45:45Z wasamasa: javascript
2020-05-02T19:45:48Z TheGreekOwl: Oh.
2020-05-02T19:45:57Z wasamasa: yes, exactly
2020-05-02T19:46:01Z TheGreekOwl: Also the MIT scheme thing says UNIX, unix is like linux right?
2020-05-02T19:46:16Z wasamasa: the other way around
2020-05-02T19:46:27Z TheGreekOwl: Linux came out of Unix?
2020-05-02T19:46:30Z mdhughes: Windows does seem really horrible for dev, but that's because I don't have Visual Studio and all that nonsense.
2020-05-02T19:46:44Z wasamasa: linux provides you a unix-like environment
2020-05-02T19:46:54Z wasamasa: bsd and mac are unix-like, too
2020-05-02T19:47:01Z TheGreekOwl: I've never used any so I have no idea whats it like.
2020-05-02T19:47:46Z mdhughes: linux is what happens when a drunk Finn writes something kinda like what he's heard an OS is like, but he failed his OS class.
2020-05-02T19:47:51Z wasamasa: these environments assume their developers know what they're doing
2020-05-02T19:48:16Z TheGreekOwl: If you don't its hard I guess?
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2020-05-02T19:48:44Z wasamasa: it's like having the choice between a plastic knife and a sharp knife
2020-05-02T19:49:09Z wasamasa: it's in your interest to know how to use the sharp knife or else
2020-05-02T19:49:35Z mdhughes: Unix and Unix-likes are user-friendly, but insist you learn their secret language before you can enter the clubhouse.
2020-05-02T19:49:57Z TheGreekOwl: So, would you recomend getting a laptop with a non-windows OS dual booted
2020-05-02T19:50:03Z TheGreekOwl: Just to get into programming
2020-05-02T19:50:11Z wasamasa: a VM will do fine for experimentation
2020-05-02T19:50:19Z TheGreekOwl: Virtual machine I assume?
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2020-05-02T19:50:33Z TheGreekOwl: Or would the easier thing be to just switch to another language and pick another book
2020-05-02T19:51:02Z wasamasa: unless you pick something officially supported by microsoft, it will be as challenging to get into
2020-05-02T19:51:42Z mdhughes: If you're on Windows now, you can get the "Windows Subsystem for Linux" from the MS store, so at least you can try something out now.
2020-05-02T19:52:14Z mdhughes: And then think about getting a nicer dev system, installing an OS, when you kinda know what you're doing.
2020-05-02T19:52:26Z weinholt: TheGreekOwl, you will be fine with Racket on Windows, it's very popular together with that book
2020-05-02T19:52:44Z TheGreekOwl: I kinda want to move to C# after scheme so *shrugs*
2020-05-02T19:52:53Z TheGreekOwl: Download finished, let me try racket
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2020-05-02T19:53:16Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/s9thng
2020-05-02T19:53:24Z TheGreekOwl: This seems straightforward
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2020-05-02T19:55:15Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/s9timi
2020-05-02T19:55:18Z TheGreekOwl: So like... where is scheme?
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2020-05-02T19:55:34Z wasamasa: R5RS is a scheme standard
2020-05-02T19:55:38Z call-cc[m]: R5RS is scheme i believe
2020-05-02T19:55:38Z TheGreekOwl: Oh.
2020-05-02T19:55:56Z TheGreekOwl: Let me try (- 400 300)
2020-05-02T19:55:58Z TheGreekOwl: 100
2020-05-02T19:55:59Z TheGreekOwl: IT WORKED
2020-05-02T19:56:05Z TheGreekOwl: Ok boiz, we up and running
2020-05-02T19:56:13Z TheGreekOwl: Going to be readign SICP
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2020-05-02T19:56:24Z TheGreekOwl: I'll post any questions here, <3 thanks for the help
2020-05-02T19:56:36Z call-cc[m]: if you're reading SICP i would've reccommended MIT/GNU Scheme
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2020-05-02T19:57:25Z TheGreekOwl: I didnt see a windows version, onlu UNIX and Linux
2020-05-02T19:57:50Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/s9tjto
2020-05-02T19:57:54Z call-cc[m]: yeah, i guess you're stuck with DrRacket then
2020-05-02T19:58:07Z TheGreekOwl boops call*
2020-05-02T19:58:14Z TheGreekOwl: Look if something happens I'll know.
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2020-05-02T20:01:48Z TheGreekOwl: http://prntscr.com/s9tls0
2020-05-02T20:01:59Z wasamasa: you don't need to post screenshots every minute
2020-05-02T20:02:00Z TheGreekOwl: ...jesus christ this is going to get hellish if I have to do many operations
2020-05-02T20:02:07Z TheGreekOwl: oh sorry.
2020-05-02T20:02:18Z TheGreekOwl: I'll stop.
2020-05-02T20:02:55Z wasamasa: we all looked at SICP at some point and have a good idea what the first chapter looks like
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2020-05-02T20:05:32Z wasamasa: and yes, it's going to be harder than that
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2020-05-02T21:48:10Z jcowan: Racket and Chez will be fine on Windows
2020-05-02T21:48:29Z jcowan: Racket is certainly more noob-friendly
2020-05-02T21:48:41Z call-cc[m]: Chez is great
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2020-05-02T22:08:40Z aeth: I would've assumed that someone with a name call-cc (like call-cc.org) uses Chicken
2020-05-02T22:09:20Z call-cc[m]: I do use chicken scheme, I just also like chez.
2020-05-02T22:10:57Z wasamasa: sounds like blasphemy to me
2020-05-02T22:11:06Z aeth: people are allowed to like more than one thing on the internet? :o
2020-05-02T22:11:13Z bitmapper: yes i would agree using chicken is blasphemy
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2020-05-02T22:12:53Z call-cc[m]: I just use it because chicken doesn't have R6RS support and also the chicken repl is not amazing
2020-05-02T22:13:12Z bitmapper: and it performs better than chicken too :/
2020-05-02T22:13:42Z call-cc[m]: i just don't know how to make native binaries out of chez lmao
2020-05-02T22:13:44Z wasamasa: not having r6rs support is a feature, r7rs support is where it's at
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2020-05-02T22:13:55Z bitmapper: call-cc: there's a tool for that
2020-05-02T22:14:05Z call-cc[m]: bitmapper: wait really lol
2020-05-02T22:14:18Z bitmapper: it does ahead of time compilation too, and allows you to chose whether to bundle an interpreter or the full compiler
2020-05-02T22:14:37Z bitmapper: https://github.com/gwatt/chez-exe < this one
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2020-05-02T22:14:52Z call-cc[m]: oh, nice!
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2020-05-02T22:15:48Z call-cc[m]: i guess i'm using chez now ,lol
2020-05-02T22:15:52Z call-cc[m]:  * i guess i'm using chez now, lol
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2020-05-02T22:16:23Z bitmapper: the only downside is the lack of libs with native bindings
2020-05-02T22:16:49Z call-cc[m]: well, yeah, but that's kind of the advantage to chicken scheme
2020-05-02T22:16:56Z bitmapper: it's like python
2020-05-02T22:17:26Z bitmapper: also i'm just finding out now that mit/gnu scheme has an x86_64 native compiler?
2020-05-02T22:20:18Z call-cc[m]: I'm getting an error when running gen-config.ss
2020-05-02T22:22:07Z bitmapper: hmm?
2020-05-02T22:22:11Z bitmapper: what's the error
2020-05-02T22:22:29Z bitmapper: you have to call it with the flags
2020-05-02T22:22:41Z bitmapper: check the readme
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2020-05-02T22:23:07Z call-cc[m]: Unable to find petite.boot. Try running gen-config.ss to set dependency paths
2020-05-02T22:23:07Z call-cc[m]: This is when I run gen-config.ss
2020-05-02T22:24:02Z bitmapper: you have to specify the chez scheme bootfile path like the readme says
2020-05-02T22:24:07Z bitmapper: when running gen-config.ss
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2020-05-02T22:27:47Z call-cc[m]: thanks, it worked
2020-05-02T22:28:52Z bitmapper: no problem, that confused me at first too
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2020-05-02T23:13:46Z aeth: wasamasa: As long as R6RS's equivalent to libraries also has the interface defined in a separate file as the implementation, you can afaik write a .scm that is both R6RS and R7RS
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2020-05-02T23:35:16Z jcowan: Well, provided you have include handy for R6RS.  It's easy enough to write, but not standard.
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2020-05-03T00:34:50Z aeth: yes
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2020-05-03T02:28:32Z mdhughes: call-cc[m]: https://github.com/ovenpasta/thunderchez has most of the SRFIs, SDL, some other tools for Chez
2020-05-03T02:29:56Z mdhughes: I still use CHICKEN, too, it's easier to make binaries and some libs are essential. But I'd rather be working in a Chez REPL and "scripts" that can run at compiled speed.
2020-05-03T02:35:25Z userself:  mdhughes i've seen thunderchez, seems pretty nice
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2020-05-03T03:35:07Z jcowan: mdhughes: Chicken can certainly run scripts at compiled speed, if you compile them.
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2020-05-03T04:36:28Z mdhughes: Then it's no longer a script!
2020-05-03T04:36:38Z aeth: eh
2020-05-03T04:36:45Z mdhughes: C is not a scripting language.
2020-05-03T04:36:50Z aeth: a compiled script is a compiled script
2020-05-03T04:37:06Z Riastradh: it's only a script if it can be dramatically reenacted on a stage; otherwise it's only a sparkling screenplay
2020-05-03T04:42:38Z mdhughes: A script usually means interpreted, text control of another program (if only the VM). Which is why I quote "script" for Chez, because it looks like an interpreted script, but it's actually compiling, it just doesn't waste your time operating the compiler for most uses.
2020-05-03T04:42:49Z aeth: eh
2020-05-03T04:42:59Z aeth: I find that Lisps break most people's assumptions about interpretation vs. compilation
2020-05-03T04:43:25Z amirouche: yes
2020-05-03T04:43:26Z Riastradh: Python scripts are not scripts because they are compiled before they are run.
2020-05-03T04:43:41Z mdhughes: Well, CHICKEN sure doesn't. csi is one of the slowest languages I've ever used. csc makes reasonably fast binaries.
2020-05-03T04:44:10Z aeth: Most CLs (but compiling to C might be too slow, e.g. ECL is pretty slow compiling) don't even separate interpretation vs. compilation anymore
2020-05-03T04:44:15Z aeth: They'll just compile to /tmp/
2020-05-03T04:44:45Z aeth: Now, I mean, of course, you can have infinite optimizations and eventually you're going to be pretty slow doing it, but fast compilation can be fast
2020-05-03T04:46:45Z aeth: Unless you purposefully construct some perverse edge case (and you can probably do that for bytecode compilation, too) you can't really notice fast compiling for at least the past 10 years
2020-05-03T04:47:19Z aeth: But even Python will cache .pyc on disk.
2020-05-03T04:47:26Z aeth: So you only pay for compilation once.
2020-05-03T04:48:24Z Riastradh: I would like return this compilation; it is scratched.
2020-05-03T04:50:25Z aeth: but, anyway, imo scripting is semantic, not involving lower level details
2020-05-03T04:51:00Z aeth: if it functionally serves the role of scripting, then it's scripting.
2020-05-03T04:51:03Z mdhughes: Even a pyc is still just running an interpreted VM, so that still looks like script to me.
2020-05-03T04:52:06Z mdhughes: The edge case is Java 1.0. It needed to be compiled, and that was fairly slow, but it still only ran on a VM. Once they got JIT and Hotspot, then it got out of that grey area.
2020-05-03T04:53:09Z aeth: In a Lisp, you can script itself in that same Lisp itself.
2020-05-03T04:53:54Z aeth: If GNU Emacs was (1) written (almost) entirely in Emacs Lisp, and (2) Emacs Lisp was natively compiled, then you would still be scripting GNU Emacs in Emacs Lisp. That this is not the case is an implementation detail that could change at any time.
2020-05-03T04:54:21Z Riastradh: maybe the real scripting language is the friends we made along the way
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2020-05-03T04:57:05Z mdhughes: But none of those are the case, and it's probability zero that they will be while St*llm*n lives.
2020-05-03T04:57:09Z aeth: That people don't script C++ in C++ is just an effect of C++ having compilation times that take forever. (And a few people do, anyway.)
2020-05-03T04:57:29Z aeth: Then you use a scripting language because you want instant feedback for changes to certain parts of the program.
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2020-05-03T04:57:59Z aeth: But if you can compile such things "instantly" (And there are hacks for doing this in C++, I think it's called "hotloading") you can script a program in the implementation language.
2020-05-03T04:58:21Z Riastradh: dlopen is scripting for C++
2020-05-03T04:59:07Z aeth: If you were to write in Stalin Scheme, you'd have to use a scripting language, too.
2020-05-03T04:59:40Z aeth: (This is just one of several uses of "scripting", the other being "running it where you would otherwise have used a shell script")
2020-05-03T05:00:52Z aeth: mdhughes: And I don't want to really talk about CL too much here, but the Common Lisp window manager StumpWM that's built on Emacs-like design principles has a .stumpwmrc so you do script it in the implementation language itself.
2020-05-03T05:03:01Z aeth: And GNU Emacs doesn't behave like this, but (almost) all of the various Emacs-like editors written in other Lisps/Schemes probably do.
2020-05-03T05:03:02Z mdhughes: So, no compile phase +1, controlling another program +1, might be compiled to machine code? -1: Script.
2020-05-03T05:05:32Z aeth: eh, if the language is a compiled language, then they're probably either compiled and thrown away each time or cached somewhere
2020-05-03T05:07:34Z aeth: and if it's a Scheme that compiles to something that then compiles natively, then it has been compiled twice, even though from the user's perspective it looks and acts just like any other script, interpreted or compiled
2020-05-03T05:14:07Z aeth: Anyway, Wikipedia mostly gets it right, essentially breaking things up into glue (like bash) or extension (like Emacs Lisp) languages and only saying that they're *usually* interpreted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_language
2020-05-03T05:14:54Z aeth: (I mean, it gives 6 categories, but they're all redundant except those two)
2020-05-03T05:15:13Z amirouche:  people around me insist to say my scheme-to-javascript compiler is transpiler
2020-05-03T05:15:57Z aeth: amirouche: That's funny because when I call my Scheme a transpiler, people around me insist that "transiplers" aren't really a thing. So no matter which way you go with labels, you can't please everyone.
2020-05-03T05:16:43Z amirouche: aeth: that is your program that output CL?
2020-05-03T05:16:55Z amirouche: aeth: are they lisp people?
2020-05-03T05:17:03Z aeth: But, ultimately, when you write a source-to-source compiler, you really blur lines because you never know if the language you're targeting is going to be interpreted or natively compiled in the end. e.g. C interpreters exist. Languages themselves aren't compiled or interpreted.
2020-05-03T05:17:23Z aeth: amirouche: Yes.
2020-05-03T05:18:00Z aeth: I've had to pause it for a while because I was sick in April and something had to go on the backburner...
2020-05-03T05:19:06Z amirouche: yeah, I understand, when I look at my github overview, I see 2 weeks of work, 2 weeks down cycles
2020-05-03T05:19:14Z amirouche: almost the entire year
2020-05-03T05:19:36Z amirouche: I figured that before looking at github, after intense work, I get tired.
2020-05-03T05:19:45Z amirouche: for a long time.
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2020-05-03T05:20:19Z aeth: even when I'm constantly doing output, I'm alternating between several projects
2020-05-03T05:20:22Z amirouche: also I need to figure (analyse) what to do next, that leave not enough energy to do some code.
2020-05-03T05:20:35Z aeth: and, yeah, some days I spend all day to write a few lines
2020-05-03T05:20:48Z aeth: That's why Java's so great. You're always productive. You're always writing a lot of lines.
2020-05-03T05:21:20Z amirouche: I also alternate between projects, that is good and bad, because when you come back to the previous project you have a fresh eye, but you also need to re-learn everything or almost everything.
2020-05-03T05:21:51Z amirouche: another curse I have, is that I recode the same thing in different languages...
2020-05-03T05:22:28Z amirouche: not exactly the same, with what I call improvements, but still progress seems slow... The general trends goes like Python -> Guile -> Chez -> Arew
2020-05-03T05:23:02Z amirouche: like foundationdb bindings I wrote that at least 4 times.
2020-05-03T05:23:21Z amirouche: some of the code can be ported but not everything.
2020-05-03T05:23:53Z amirouche: Compared to entreprise setting, where when you type something it is almost immediatly set in stone..
2020-05-03T05:24:32Z amirouche: The worst curse, would have been to stick to the Python version I had 5 years ago.
2020-05-03T05:24:55Z amirouche: (which I rewritten in python entirely at 2 times)
2020-05-03T05:25:03Z amirouche: (which I rewritten in python entirely at least 2 times)
2020-05-03T05:26:58Z amirouche: It is difficult to figure that time that is not spent coding is not wasted, after some time, I even question my mental sanity and ability to go back to coding.
2020-05-03T05:28:17Z amirouche: I already see my next big plundge into thinking in the name of: Forth.
2020-05-03T05:28:27Z amirouche: Forth language is facinating.
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2020-05-03T05:50:41Z zaifir: I've never seen a particularly convincing argument for some languages being "scripting languages" as opposed to vanilla PLs.
2020-05-03T05:55:33Z aeth: zaifir: "scripting" is a role (well, two: glue and extension), not a language... with the sole exception of the shell scripting family of languages.
2020-05-03T05:56:05Z aeth: Some languages are designed with scripting as their intent, though, e.g. Lua.
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2020-05-03T06:29:46Z mdhughes: Like I said, look at the original "scripting languages", EXEC and REXX on IBM, Bourne shell script, etc. Non-compiled, controls another program or a VM.
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2020-05-03T06:31:55Z mdhughes: That we have things that blur the lines now is just 50+ years of better compiler tech, faster CPUs, and more disk space.
2020-05-03T06:34:28Z mdhughes: REXX is one of my favorite languages ever, it's "BASIC-like" but it doesn't have an interactive environment*, and exists to control batch jobs or embedded in a PL/I or C program.
2020-05-03T06:34:58Z mdhughes: (* you can write a REPL in it very very easily, almost as easily as Scheme; but error handling is going to eat you alive)
2020-05-03T06:38:21Z aeth: mdhughes: yes, but you can have a trait (not compiled) that's common but not essential
2020-05-03T06:38:47Z aeth: e.g. Lisps generally have numeric towers
2020-05-03T06:41:52Z mdhughes: I don't think I'd ever call anything that requires an explicit compile phase a script. Even if it's a script in some other context; a cython program that takes 30s to compile is no longer fun Python scripting, even if it's almost the exact same source bytes.
2020-05-03T06:42:34Z mdhughes: Or pico-8, where you have to compile your Lua code.
2020-05-03T06:43:07Z mdhughes: (IIRC? It's been a while since I used it. I remember being very frustrated with the dev cycle.)
2020-05-03T06:43:36Z mdhughes: ((in addition to it being fucking Lua.))
2020-05-03T06:44:43Z mdhughes: (((But I do also maintain a couple addons for ESO, and they're non-compiled Lua scripts. <sigh>)))
2020-05-03T06:45:22Z aeth: 30 seconds to compile?
2020-05-03T06:45:35Z aeth: I'm talking about < 1, not 30
2020-05-03T06:46:01Z mdhughes: Oh, you sweet summer child. cython's hell when you get past a couple modules.
2020-05-03T06:46:03Z Fare: I remember REXX being touted as the scripting language of... OS/2 ... hahaha
2020-05-03T06:46:05Z aeth: This is one of the reasons why I don't think compiling to C is a sound approach... because C compilers are slow
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2020-05-03T06:46:25Z Fare: there was no online documentation for it in OS/2 2.1 beta, anyway
2020-05-03T06:46:28Z mdhughes: Yes, REXX was awesome on OS/2. Best desktop OS I ever had.
2020-05-03T06:46:33Z aeth: mdhughes: I doubt my Scheme->CL->native will have any noticable compilation times
2020-05-03T06:46:55Z aeth: and any hard-to-compile libraries would just be cached by ASDF, and not used directly in a scripting context
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2020-05-03T06:47:22Z mdhughes: I had a ton of IBM redbook docs for REXX, OS/2 C, etc., some downloaded, some mailed to me in dead tree.
2020-05-03T06:48:05Z mdhughes: I think a lot of the OS/2 experience varied by how many dead trees IBM sent you.
2020-05-03T06:49:19Z mdhughes: Amiga used REXX, too, but the Amiga experience was the desktop crashing every couple minutes so scripting anything was kind of pointless.
2020-05-03T06:49:38Z duncanm: hey Fare
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2020-05-03T06:51:58Z aeth: Clearly, the reason OS/2 failed is because IBM thought REXX was more suitable than a Lisp
2020-05-03T06:53:15Z mdhughes: https://www.rexxla.org/events/2019/presentations/Rexx40.pdf
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2020-05-03T06:54:54Z mdhughes: Wish there was video from the RexxLA presentations, not just slides. I've seen Cowlishaw speak IRL, and he goes off-slide pretty quick.
2020-05-03T06:56:18Z aeth: mdhughes: If I implemented Rexx on my runtime, would it still be a scripting language?
2020-05-03T06:57:15Z mdhughes: Maybe? Notably NetRexx is transpiled to Java, it's not a scripting language, even though it's ~80% source-compatible with REXX.
2020-05-03T06:58:21Z Fare: duncanm, hi!
2020-05-03T06:58:23Z aeth: is it not? what if it's used to script a large Java application?
2020-05-03T06:58:50Z aeth: anyway, that's why "scripting" makes more sense as a functional role rather than a language descriptor
2020-05-03T06:59:00Z mdhughes: You'd still have to compile it. So you're making a new program that just uses Java libraries.
2020-05-03T06:59:38Z aeth: Perhaps Java's workflow is too rigid
2020-05-03T07:00:06Z aeth: As far as "just uses Java libraries"... that's a huge ecosystem!
2020-05-03T07:00:19Z aeth: All runtimes should aspire to be as huge as the JVM world!
2020-05-03T07:01:24Z aeth: I like the idea of having a common runtime for languages. Java and C# created such environments, and Perl 6 tried, but backed away from that.
2020-05-03T07:01:29Z aeth: But for the most part, people don't even try.
2020-05-03T07:04:51Z mdhughes: But you can script Java with Groovy, or Beanshell, or Rhino (JS), and those don't need a compile. So they're scripts.
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2020-05-03T07:09:05Z aeth: I think that's just because Java in particular has very noticable compilations
2020-05-03T07:09:29Z aeth: yet another language needlessly copying C
2020-05-03T07:09:41Z aeth: (GLSL, a shader language, is even less justified here!)
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2020-05-03T10:18:22Z amirouche: I have a small doubt regarding letrec*. Like let*, letrec* will allow to bind several times the same variable, correct? like (letrec* ((a 42) (a 0)) a) will return 0
2020-05-03T10:19:21Z aeth: I like abusing let* to do that sometimes
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2020-05-03T10:57:38Z pjb: amirouche: the question is what happens for lambdas!
2020-05-03T10:58:03Z amirouche: sorry, I got the answer, sorry for cross posting.
2020-05-03T10:58:15Z pjb: (letrec* ((f (lambda (x) (if (= 0 x) 1 (* x (f (- x 10)))))) (f (lambda (x) (if (= 0 x) 1 (+ x (f (- x 10))))))) (f 42)) ?
2020-05-03T10:58:40Z amirouche: what I said does not make sense (I think)
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2020-05-03T11:03:18Z pjb: amirouche: indeed, because the manual of racket says for letrec: The ids must be distinct according to bound-identifier=?
2020-05-03T11:04:20Z pjb: letrec* is in r6rs…
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2020-05-03T11:06:02Z pjb: I don't see that the identifiers must be unique in letrec*, so the question remains.  mit-scheme doesn't do it…
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2020-05-03T14:54:01Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. What is with https://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-texi/ ?
2020-05-03T14:54:08Z ArthurStrong: I downloaded texinfo and info and opened in Emacs
2020-05-03T14:54:18Z ArthurStrong: But nothing special, just text...
2020-05-03T14:54:29Z ArthurStrong: Should I switch to a special mode?
2020-05-03T14:56:15Z iv4nshm4k0v: ArthurStrong: Use C-u M-x info RET filename.info RET.
2020-05-03T14:56:59Z ArthurStrong: iv4nshm4k0v: oh! Is this like pre-HTML hypertext?
2020-05-03T14:58:00Z iv4nshm4k0v: ArthurStrong: Not necessarily "pre-", but yes, it's non-HTML hypertext indeed.
2020-05-03T14:58:15Z ArthurStrong: iv4nshm4k0v: thanks!
2020-05-03T14:58:20Z ArthurStrong had no idea about it
2020-05-03T14:59:19Z iv4nshm4k0v: Alternatively, the .texi source can be used to produce PDF or HTML.
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2020-05-03T15:04:22Z ArthurStrong: isn't it simplified TeX?
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2020-05-03T15:16:10Z Riastradh: Not just simplified TeX, but it uses TeX to produce printed output, e.g. with texi2pdf.
2020-05-03T15:17:08Z Riastradh: You can produce Info output (which Emacs can browse interactively) with `makeinfo', HTML output (which a kind of Emacs-lite you may have heard of called `Firefox' can browse interactively) with `makeinfo --html', or PDF output with `texi2pdf'.
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2020-05-03T15:41:29Z TheGreekOwl: Hello, can I ask http://prntscr.com/sa6t0l I am doing noob exercises in DrRacket, why doens this work exactly?
2020-05-03T15:43:01Z rgherdt: it's missing parenthesis surrounding the clauses
2020-05-03T15:43:30Z rgherdt: should be:    (cond ((and ...)) (else ...))
2020-05-03T15:43:53Z TheGreekOwl: Really?
2020-05-03T15:44:58Z rgherdt: take a look on the syntax here: http://ds26gte.github.io/tyscheme/index-Z-H-6.html#node_sec_4.2
2020-05-03T15:47:09Z TheGreekOwl: So instead of using AND I should just ((< a b) (< a c)) as the clauses
2020-05-03T15:49:18Z wasamasa: no
2020-05-03T15:49:56Z wasamasa: each clause is a list consisting of condition and body
2020-05-03T15:53:27Z TheGreekOwl: Still didnt work
2020-05-03T15:53:39Z wasamasa: you should learn to use a pastebin
2020-05-03T15:53:58Z TheGreekOwl: APologies
2020-05-03T15:54:17Z TheGreekOwl: https://pastebin.com/umwGPnWV
2020-05-03T15:54:25Z wasamasa: I wonder, does racket have their own
2020-05-03T15:54:26Z TheGreekOwl: It says that "else: not allowed as an expression in: (else c)"
2020-05-03T15:55:53Z wasamasa: that formatting is terrible and obscures how case works
2020-05-03T15:56:32Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2kD3
2020-05-03T15:56:44Z wasamasa: formatted this way you can see that the cond gets a single expression, which is wrong
2020-05-03T15:56:47Z zaifir: TheGreekOwl: The first two tests don't have body expressions.  If you replace the and expressions with a single X, you get (cond (X X (else c))).
2020-05-03T15:57:24Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/2kD4
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2020-05-03T15:58:20Z TheGreekOwl: Trying to understand what I did wrong gibs as ec
2020-05-03T16:03:06Z TheGreekOwl: Ok
2020-05-03T16:03:08Z TheGreekOwl: I think I understand
2020-05-03T16:03:10Z TheGreekOwl: I am a dummy
2020-05-03T16:03:43Z TheGreekOwl: The AND needs to be
2020-05-03T16:03:43Z TheGreekOwl: Right
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2020-05-03T16:04:14Z wasamasa: compare the two code snippets I've sent
2020-05-03T16:04:20Z TheGreekOwl: I did
2020-05-03T16:04:29Z wasamasa: check where the parentheses start and end
2020-05-03T16:04:34Z TheGreekOwl: Yeap.
2020-05-03T16:04:55Z TheGreekOwl: I basically didnt put the AND in brackets well, so the program didnt know where it
2020-05-03T16:04:56Z TheGreekOwl: Ok got it
2020-05-03T16:05:13Z zaifir: It's not about parens.  It's about what the test expression is and what the value expression is.
2020-05-03T16:05:43Z zaifir: The test is (and (< a b) (< a c)).  The value, if that is true, is a.
2020-05-03T16:06:06Z zaifir: (Using the first case as an example, of course.)
2020-05-03T16:07:36Z TheGreekOwl: https://pastebin.com/7BZbhqsX
2020-05-03T16:07:39Z TheGreekOwl: IT WORKS :D
2020-05-03T16:08:46Z zaifir: TheGreekOwl: Use the indentation that wasamasa suggested, though.  I tripped on the weird indent in the second line of cond.
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2020-05-03T16:49:40Z erkin: Riastradh: Which SRFIs does MIT/GNU Scheme officially support?
2020-05-03T16:50:21Z Riastradh: ummm
2020-05-03T16:50:37Z Riastradh: I think there's a list on the web site somewhere, and/or maybe cond-expand?
2020-05-03T16:50:53Z Riastradh: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ has a list
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2020-05-03T16:55:01Z Riastradh: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/mit-macros.scm?id=ebbbc133b6f24fc73d786284e155379f38e15a88#n774 (for master, not yet released)
2020-05-03T16:55:01Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/kY0Bo8pHLI
2020-05-03T16:55:53Z Riastradh: erkin: Why do you ask?
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2020-05-03T16:57:21Z erkin: Riastradh: I'd like to add MIT/GNU Scheme to the SRFI support table we're preparing.
2020-05-03T16:57:23Z erkin: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/schemedoc/srfi-metadata/blob/master/table.html
2020-05-03T16:57:27Z Riastradh: ah
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2020-05-03T17:14:08Z jcowan: IMO "scripting language" means "a language I don't think is hard enough for Real Programmers to use".
2020-05-03T17:14:46Z zaifir: Yes.
2020-05-03T17:15:02Z zaifir: Larry Wall has some funny comments on the distinction. https://www.perl.com/pub/2007/12/06/soto-11.html/
2020-05-03T17:15:10Z Riastradh: `scripting language' is actually just an older kind of writing with no whitespace, you just have to know where one token ends and the next one begins.
2020-05-03T17:15:27Z zaifir: "I think, to most people, scripting is a lot like obscenity. I can’t define it, but I’ll know it when I see it."
2020-05-03T17:15:33Z Riastradh: (This is why it has to be interpreted.)
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2020-05-03T17:29:59Z zaifir: I guess a common use of "scripting" now refers to languages meant to be embedded.
2020-05-03T17:31:23Z zaifir: Which is what aeth means by Lua being intended for scripting, I think.
2020-05-03T17:37:56Z groovy: can someone explain Applicative-Order vs Normal-Order evaluation to me I don't really see a difference between the two
2020-05-03T17:38:42Z wasamasa: one is scheme, the other is haskell
2020-05-03T17:38:53Z wasamasa: big difference between both
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2020-05-03T17:43:24Z pinoaffe: groovy: SICP does a good job explaining it
2020-05-03T17:43:29Z groovy: I'm reading that rn
2020-05-03T17:43:52Z pinoaffe: https://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.037/sicp.pdf#subsection.4.2.1
2020-05-03T17:43:54Z groovy: Normal Order makes sense to me in just substituting everything in and then evaluating
2020-05-03T17:44:16Z groovy: but Applicative is applying the operator first and then evaluating each argument as it's applied?
2020-05-03T17:44:36Z pinoaffe: no, applicative order is substitution
2020-05-03T17:45:06Z groovy: hm
2020-05-03T17:45:46Z pinoaffe: in normal order, you have a bunch of "reduction-rules" and try to do the highest one you can do without first doing lower ones
2020-05-03T17:49:20Z groovy: ok I guess I meant expanding and not substituting
2020-05-03T17:49:56Z pinoaffe: okay now I have no clue what you're talking about :)
2020-05-03T17:50:32Z Riastradh: groovy: Consider (define (foo p x y) (if p x y)), and consider (define (bar x) (foo (< x 0) 'done (bar (- x 1)))).  What does (bar 100) do?
2020-05-03T17:51:42Z groovy: lemme write this down xd
2020-05-03T17:52:41Z groovy: idk what 'done means
2020-05-03T17:53:07Z Riastradh: OK, how about writing 42 in the place of 'done?
2020-05-03T17:53:15Z groovy: ok
2020-05-03T17:53:18Z Riastradh: (just some value that's distinct)
2020-05-03T17:56:12Z groovy: it returns 42?
2020-05-03T17:56:25Z Riastradh: Can you explain how you conclude that?
2020-05-03T17:57:37Z groovy: oh wait
2020-05-03T17:57:39Z groovy: less than
2020-05-03T17:57:41Z groovy: it just
2020-05-03T17:57:45Z groovy: inf loops then right
2020-05-03T17:58:10Z groovy: or it just keeps calling bar until evantually x is < 0?
2020-05-03T17:58:50Z Riastradh: Does it matter whether I write < or >?
2020-05-03T17:59:40Z groovy: I guess in the end it's still 42 but > gets there immediately and < has to loop through and call bar until x < 0 is false
2020-05-03T17:59:42Z groovy: er
2020-05-03T17:59:44Z groovy: true i mean
2020-05-03T18:00:19Z Riastradh: Let's try (bar 1), just to make it simpler.  How do you evaluate that/
2020-05-03T18:02:05Z groovy: bar 1 is (foo (< 1 0) 42 (bar (- 1 1))) so then you apply foo and get (if (< 1 0) 42 (bar (- 1 1))) and then evaluate and (< 1 0) is false so it returns (bar (- 1 1)) which gives you (bar 0)
2020-05-03T18:03:06Z groovy: so then (bar 0) is (foo (< 0 0) 42 (bar (- 0 1))) which is (if (< 0 0) 42 (bar -1)))
2020-05-03T18:03:26Z groovy: which is still false so you get bar -1 which will get true and then you get 42
2020-05-03T18:03:35Z groovy: ?
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2020-05-03T18:11:01Z erkin: Scheme funcalls are call-by-value by definition.
2020-05-03T18:15:00Z groovy: it's ok I think I'm just dumb
2020-05-03T18:16:10Z erkin: Hey now, none of us were born with knowledge of evaluation order strategies.
2020-05-03T18:20:29Z erkin: WRT the earlier discussion: Isn't it strange that 'scripting language' refers to two entirely unrelated things? On one hand you have (what would be more aptly called) extension languages (like Emacs Lisp and Lua) that one uses to augment a program's capabilities without touching the underlying source. On the other hand, you have (what would be more aptly called) glue languagages (such as Perl and
2020-05-03T18:20:31Z erkin: bash) that a sysadmin uses for maintenance, pipelining and automation tasks.
2020-05-03T18:25:39Z groovy: so applicative is outside in and normal order is just writing everything out to the most basic operations?
2020-05-03T18:26:05Z erkin: Normally, when you do a funcall, the arguments get evaluated before they're passed to the procedure.
2020-05-03T18:27:15Z erkin: I believe what SICP refers to as `normal-order' is call-by-need.
2020-05-03T18:27:18Z erkin: ie lazy evaluation
2020-05-03T18:28:14Z erkin: Values don't get evaluated until a funcall /needs/ the value.
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2020-05-03T18:30:30Z Riastradh: (...Isn't it strange that people have such strong opinions about what the Platonic ideal conceptualization of `scripting language' is without once mentioning the practical utility of making that classification is?)
2020-05-03T18:30:32Z erkin: Well, I guess it's more properly known as call-by-name since call-by-need implies memoisation.
2020-05-03T18:30:37Z jcowan: erkin: I think my theory that "scripting" is an insult reconciles the two meanings.  "Lua?  That's just a scripting language.  Why don't you just write in C++?"  "Bash?  That's just a scripting language.  Why don't you write a C program to do it all?"
2020-05-03T18:31:13Z Riastradh: groovy: You said, `bar 1 is (foo (< 1 0) 42 (bar (- 1 1))) so then you apply foo and get...'.
2020-05-03T18:31:29Z Riastradh: groovy: Do you apply foo next, or do you apply the nested bar next?
2020-05-03T18:31:48Z jcowan: See "Master Foo and the Ten Thousand Lines" <http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/ten-thousand.html>
2020-05-03T18:31:50Z groovy: oh
2020-05-03T18:32:13Z groovy: you do bar first then? bc you evaluate the arguments first then apply the procedure?
2020-05-03T18:34:30Z ecraven: for some reason I've found that Tom Knight and the Lisp Machine (http://catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html) really resonates with me
2020-05-03T18:34:41Z erkin: groovy: Let our program be foo := 5 + 3; bar := long-operation(); foo + foo; call-by-value first evaluates foo := 8; then runs the long-operation(), then 8 + 8, which is 16. Call-by-name ignores bar and calculates (5 + 3) + (5 + 3), which is 16 (three addition operations instead of two). Call-by-need evaluates ignores bar but evaluates foo := 8 since its value is needed, then calculates 8 + 8,
2020-05-03T18:34:43Z erkin: which is 16.
2020-05-03T18:35:22Z erkin: That's probably a bad example because it doesn't showcase side effects but I eh.
2020-05-03T18:35:27Z erkin: but eh*
2020-05-03T18:35:59Z Riastradh: groovy: That's the difference between `normal order' and `applicative order'.
2020-05-03T18:36:17Z Riastradh: groovy: With `normal order', you call foo first.  With `applicative order', you call bar first.
2020-05-03T18:36:21Z erkin: jcowan: Still, some languages are more suitable for certain tasks than others. Bash isn't a general-purpose language and I don't think there's a good reason to write kernel drivers in it, nor in, say Tcl.
2020-05-03T18:36:55Z erkin: But I do agree that it's used somewhat disparagingly.
2020-05-03T18:36:58Z groovy: Riastradh: so would you say that normal is like outside in and applicative is inside out or is that wrong
2020-05-03T18:38:19Z ecraven: normal is lazy, and applicative is eager
2020-05-03T18:38:58Z jcowan: Sure, that's why functional terms like "embedded" and "glue" make sense.
2020-05-03T18:39:26Z jcowan: One could call bash an "embedder language", with programs embedded in it.
2020-05-03T18:39:39Z erkin: I guess we're better off not using the term 'scripting language' at all then.
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2020-05-03T19:00:44Z mdhughes: jcowan: I never mean "scripting" as an insult, kind of the opposite: It means I don't have to fuck around with a compiler to get work done.
2020-05-03T19:01:30Z mdhughes: But the drawback is almost all scripting languages are orders of magnitude slower than compiled. Now we have these weird fast-compile languages, which is the only reason it's blurred.
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2020-05-03T19:02:32Z mdhughes: shell scripts control the kernel, which otherwise have no interface except a compiled program.
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2020-05-03T19:03:31Z mdhughes: "so does any program", but what makes sh more interesting is it's just text, so you can use ed or whatever, run it, not have to figure out how to bootstrap the compiler to read your source and then start a binary.
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2020-05-03T19:19:29Z erkin: Hmm yeah
2020-05-03T19:19:43Z erkin: One unifying feature of all scripting languages is that you don't need to build the program before running it.
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2020-05-03T19:22:05Z aeth: You don't need to build to compile, though! And a non-compiled program can have a build step. "build" to me brings up the complicated process of essentially preprocessing a large program, which e.g. big JS apps do these days. Or it could mean running "make" for C.
2020-05-03T19:22:27Z mdhughes: That's what made BASIC so useful back in the '70s & '80s. Turn the computer on, BASIC in ROM (usually) is instantly there, type a program in. Maybe that program's a machine-language loader. Easy to step up to native, but you can also solve a lot of problems in BASIC.
2020-05-03T19:24:39Z aeth: and we still have that, just with a few second delay, and with a Unix sh (e.g. bash or zsh) instead of BASIC...
2020-05-03T19:24:45Z aeth: oh... I guess things haven't improved much
2020-05-03T19:25:49Z wasamasa: you could use tcl as your login shell
2020-05-03T19:26:06Z mdhughes: Also it's pretty hard to build an application in sh. python or perl, or schemesh, tho!
2020-05-03T19:29:03Z aeth: The thing about Unix shell that makes it still around is (1) it's everywhere and (2) sure once you're above 100 lines it's probably torture, but something that's 5 lines is probably 20-30 in something like Python
2020-05-03T19:29:33Z mdhughes: Trouble is none of those, or my fun language REXX, have an interactive mode which lets you save your work (scsh can, but it's hairy because IIRC it either saved the entire workspace, or just one function; good luck figuring out what was important to save).
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2020-05-03T19:37:21Z jcowan: mdhughes: The Plan 9 C compiler compiles in the blink of an eye (runs on Linux too), partly because its toolchain is shorter
2020-05-03T19:38:22Z jcowan: The first OS I ever used had a RUN command that did a kind of mini-make: if you had an executable, it just got run, but if it was older than the source or didn't exist, the source would be compiled first.
2020-05-03T19:42:23Z aeth: that's interesting
2020-05-03T19:42:53Z aeth: You could probably even do something almost like a JIT, at compile both the fast compile and the optimized compile at the same time, and run the fast compile the first time, and the optimized when it's ready.
2020-05-03T19:43:13Z aeth: s/JIT, at compile/JIT, and compile/
2020-05-03T19:43:40Z aeth: s/run the fast compile/run the fast compiled executable/
2020-05-03T19:44:21Z mdhughes: I assume given the Good Old Days, tho, the new compile took minutes or more, which makes it awkward as "scripting".
2020-05-03T19:45:28Z aeth: I'm glad we have modern computers.
2020-05-03T19:46:01Z aeth: I wouldn't want to go back in time past 2010 hardware. That's sort of when progress slowed. In 2000, I probably wouldn't want to go back in time past 1997 hardware.
2020-05-03T19:47:56Z mdhughes: Most of the time, I'd actually prefer 1980s tech. Last time things worked reliably and I knew what was going on inside (not coincidentally).
2020-05-03T19:48:56Z mdhughes: Atari 800 was fantastic. Atari ST was fast and solid, if a little more boring. I had usable UNIX-like environments, MWC and then MiNT, on it.
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2020-05-03T19:51:13Z mdhughes: And my C compiles on the ST did take, say, 20 minutes. I'd code all morning, click the makefile, go out for lunch. Come back to a build or errors.
2020-05-03T19:52:12Z Duns_Scrotus: Is it okay to desugar (or a b ....) into (let ((res a)) (if res res (or b ....)))
2020-05-03T19:52:36Z Duns_Scrotus: I think it should be okay but I’m not sure in the presence of call/cc
2020-05-03T19:53:39Z aeth: Well C/C++ compilers (they're usually both) are usually the worst case in speed for whatever reason. Header files? The architecture? Spending 30x more time to get 3x faster?
2020-05-03T19:54:00Z mdhughes: (cond (a) (b) (else #f)) might be easier…
2020-05-03T19:54:08Z aeth: (Well, usually the slowest. There are niches like Stalin that are notable for taking forever... and some new languages like Rust are apparently pretty bad)
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2020-05-03T19:55:31Z mdhughes: Back in the day, I was using sozobon C (no bozos) for fast stuff, but anything serious needed gcc, which was UGH. And still is.
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2020-05-03T19:58:08Z Duns_Scrotus: Ok I’m slightly more convinced that it is
2020-05-03T19:58:19Z aeth: Well, the move to C++ for a lot of things that used to be in C didn't help. I said C/C++ compilers are slow, but they're still slower in C++ mode than C. Templates or something?
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2020-05-03T20:01:00Z mdhughes: Happily I've avoided C++ all my life.
2020-05-03T20:01:45Z erkin: I like writing C in C++ so that I can make use of RAII and proper vectors and strings.
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2020-05-03T20:03:13Z aeth: Yes, given the choice, I'll prefer C++ to C just because of the STL data structures rather than having to add a dependency (which might not even be an option). Dependencies are much more painful using the C/C++ build systems, too.
2020-05-03T20:05:04Z aeth: C culture is a bit like Scheme culture in terms of the number of people willing to write simple things from scratch rather than use a library at all, though.
2020-05-03T20:05:11Z aeth: I guess minimalism does that...
2020-05-03T20:05:58Z erkin: And you have leftpadism on the other end of the spectrum.
2020-05-03T20:07:19Z aeth: true, JS is/was "minimalist", too, but they somehow wound up with a culture of never rewriting everything but instead putting one-function-per-library
2020-05-03T20:07:26Z pinoaffe: I like writing C a lot more than writing C++, but I might still choose C++ for a big project if I was forced to choose between the two
2020-05-03T20:09:57Z pinoaffe: and I have yet to see beautiful idiomatic C++
2020-05-03T20:10:41Z aeth: I mean, it's not going to be in the same domain as Scheme
2020-05-03T20:10:54Z aeth: But you can have some nice-looking numeric code in C++ using overloading.
2020-05-03T20:11:06Z mdhughes: My Scheme library habits = my JS library habits = my C library habits: Giant marklib full of the less-portable stuff on top of the standard lib, then I can refer to that in my nice portable program.
2020-05-03T20:11:55Z erkin: Is hauling a large 'preamble' file full of convenience macros and procedures to every project you make 'Scheme culture'?
2020-05-03T20:12:22Z mdhughes: Probably not. I do not live in a society, as the kids say.
2020-05-03T20:12:46Z erkin: Because I do it and noticed many other Scheme hackers do it as well.
2020-05-03T20:12:46Z rgherdt: I unfortunately have to deal with C++ at my work (embedded stuff), and the better I learn it, the more I dislike it. Scheme is what keeps me sane.
2020-05-03T20:13:06Z mdhughes: It is emacs-lisp-culture, I know that.
2020-05-03T20:13:37Z wasamasa: dunno
2020-05-03T20:13:40Z wasamasa: dash is popular
2020-05-03T20:13:42Z aeth: erkin: I'm not sure there's one Scheme culture here. There's people who use multiple implementations and who might try to write portably, and then there's people who treat an implementation and its ecosystem like its own programming language.
2020-05-03T20:13:50Z wasamasa: it's too painful to namespace your prelude :P
2020-05-03T20:13:54Z aeth: The lack of a portable module/library/etc. system probably helped fragment Scheme
2020-05-03T20:14:07Z pinoaffe: erkin: the ones I've copied around the most are currying utilities and a variety of mapping constructs
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2020-05-03T20:15:16Z erkin: It bothers me that a lot of supposedly simple things aren't actually part of standards.
2020-05-03T20:15:35Z mdhughes: The earliest stuff in mine is I/O: input, print/println/errprintln, read-text-file, some ANSI controls, etc.
2020-05-03T20:15:48Z aeth: It's increasingly possible to see portable Scheme. It's just... still pretty weird because everything that does that has like 10 files for 10 different implementations directly in the implementation of the library itself, and things like that.
2020-05-03T20:16:10Z aeth: In Common Lisp, there are some (smaller) cross-implementation issues, but they're almost always passed to separate portability libraries to handle
2020-05-03T20:16:30Z erkin: define-values, range, void, add1/sub1, if-let...
2020-05-03T20:17:20Z wasamasa: and-let* is srfi-2
2020-05-03T20:17:31Z wasamasa: iota is in srfi-1
2020-05-03T20:17:52Z wasamasa: the rest, yeah, sure
2020-05-03T20:18:12Z erkin: Oh right, there's and-let*.
2020-05-03T20:25:36Z mdhughes is afk
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2020-05-03T20:31:19Z aeth: So what's missing from SRFIs?
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2020-05-03T20:31:55Z wasamasa: everyone implementing them?
2020-05-03T20:32:09Z wasamasa: it feels like srfi-1 is the only one you can rely on
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2020-05-03T20:33:20Z aeth: wasamasa: https://erkin.party/scheme/srfi.html
2020-05-03T20:33:44Z wasamasa: or srfi-0
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2020-05-03T20:34:20Z aeth: just eyeballing... 0, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 9, 18, 22, 23, 39
2020-05-03T20:34:27Z aeth: usually just low numbers, then it drops off a cliff
2020-05-03T20:34:32Z aeth: since naturally those are newer
2020-05-03T20:35:14Z wasamasa: I was kind of disappointed to discover kawa doesn't do srfi-69
2020-05-03T20:35:20Z wasamasa: instead you use r6rs hash tables
2020-05-03T20:36:03Z wasamasa: wth is loko even
2020-05-03T20:36:42Z wasamasa: oh, a new thing
2020-05-03T20:37:03Z wasamasa: doesn't make terribly much sense to include it in the list then
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2020-05-03T20:38:44Z aeth: yeah, no reason to use a new Scheme
2020-05-03T20:39:26Z Riastradh: What's the next number in this sequence?
2020-05-03T20:39:41Z Riastradh: Shall we put it into a Lagrange interpolation to extrapolate?
2020-05-03T20:39:59Z wasamasa: > Most SRFIs from chez-srfi are supported and there’s an early POSIX library for the Linux port based on the current SRFI 170 draft.
2020-05-03T20:40:07Z wasamasa: so the list shouldn't be empty after all, hum
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2020-05-03T20:40:33Z aeth: Riastradh: not in OEIS so either I made a mistake and missed a few or we just discovered a new sequence. https://oeis.org/search?q=0%2C+1%2C+2%2C+4%2C+6%2C+8%2C+9%2C+18%2C+22%2C+23%2C+39&language=english&go=Search
2020-05-03T20:40:39Z wasamasa: https://scheme.fail/manual/loko.html#SRFI-implementations
2020-05-03T20:41:31Z aeth: Riastradh: there are 8 results for 0,1,2,4,6,8,9 so maybe I just misread the later entries. https://oeis.org/search?q=0%2C+1%2C+2%2C+4%2C+6%2C+8%2C+9&sort=&language=english&go=Search
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2020-05-03T20:42:18Z aeth: Riastradh: unfortunately, 12 and 15 are withdrawn and all of those patterns include at least one of the two
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2020-05-03T21:53:17Z erkin: aeth, wasamasa: That table is out of date.
2020-05-03T21:53:33Z erkin: I only briefly hosted that on my website, the updated stuff is in the SchemeDoc repo.
2020-05-03T21:53:45Z erkin: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/schemedoc/srfi-metadata/blob/master/table.html
2020-05-03T21:54:08Z wasamasa: oh, one single srfi for loko
2020-05-03T21:54:24Z erkin: Two
2020-05-03T21:54:25Z wasamasa: thanks for the update :>
2020-05-03T21:54:30Z erkin: 98 and 170
2020-05-03T21:54:37Z wasamasa: still more than for chez
2020-05-03T21:54:55Z erkin: Thank lassik too, he wrote scripts for automatically scraping SRFI info from source.
2020-05-03T21:55:09Z erkin: I manually compiled the original data.
2020-05-03T21:55:13Z wasamasa: I have one idea you've surely had as well
2020-05-03T21:55:21Z erkin: Including third-party packages?
2020-05-03T21:55:59Z wasamasa: display the total number of supported SRFIs when hovering over the implementation
2020-05-03T21:56:11Z erkin: Ooh that's a good one.
2020-05-03T21:56:12Z wasamasa: should be a matter of adding the title attribute
2020-05-03T21:56:19Z erkin: Can you open an issue in the repo?
2020-05-03T21:56:34Z wasamasa: bonus: doing the opposite thing per srfi for amount of implementations
2020-05-03T21:56:39Z wasamasa: but I think that's not as useful
2020-05-03T21:59:22Z aeth: erkin: you need to have an entry for SRFIs-from-libraries
2020-05-03T22:00:15Z aeth: erkin: you still don't have Chibi as using SRFI 30, but my notes (you could ask jcowan about it, though) have SRFI 30 as part of R7RS-small.
2020-05-03T22:01:03Z aeth: iirc, I had to read through the R7RS-small voting logs to see this
2020-05-03T22:01:08Z aeth: It's not easily accessible information.
2020-05-03T22:01:44Z wasamasa: I've created the issue and even made a screenshot
2020-05-03T22:02:39Z wasamasa: for some reason I thought fixing it would take less time than creating the issue, but it's racket, so nope
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2020-05-03T22:04:35Z erkin: aeth: There are three missing features: 1. SRFI implementations as third-party libraries (eg Chez delegates away all SRFIs to the third-party), 2. SRFI implementations that are baked into the source (no libraries), 3. Implementations that rely on reference implementations of SRFIs (eg TinyScheme)
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2020-05-03T22:05:33Z erkin: Can you open an issue about Chibi?
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2020-05-03T22:06:00Z wasamasa: yeah, I think splitting up would make sense
2020-05-03T22:06:20Z erkin: It's surprisingly difficult to obtain information about all SRFIs an implementation supports. Documentation is seldom up to date and the source code is often broken up into native and library implementations.
2020-05-03T22:06:26Z wasamasa: currently I see one sh/scm file per implementation, it might make more sense to have multiple sources
2020-05-03T22:07:09Z wasamasa: for CHICKEN you could pull the externally installable library stuff from https://bugs.call-cc.org/browser/release/5/egg-locations
2020-05-03T22:07:15Z erkin: wasamasa: Also we need to carve out things like auto-withdrawn drafts of R6RS.
2020-05-03T22:07:51Z wasamasa: or better https://anonymous@code.call-cc.org/svn/chicken-eggs/release/5/egg-locations
2020-05-03T22:08:06Z erkin: I encourage everyone to participate in the mailing list discussion. :-)
2020-05-03T22:08:08Z wasamasa: just walk the list for anything matching srfi-*
2020-05-03T22:08:11Z erkin: https://srfi-email.schemers.org/schemedoc/threads/2020/05/
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2020-05-03T22:11:34Z userself: every time someone links to chicken scheme my irc client pings me lol
2020-05-03T22:12:31Z wasamasa: what did you expect to get in return for calling yourself call-cc
2020-05-03T22:12:39Z userself: fair
2020-05-03T22:12:56Z wasamasa: could be worse, there's "so" on ##security
2020-05-03T22:13:26Z aeth: erkin: I can't open an issue about Chibi because iirc Chibi itself doesn't claim SRFI 30 support, so the deeper issue is that R7RS-small doesn't make it clear which SRFIs it specifies, so even the de facto reference R7RS-small is potentially implementing one without knowing it.
2020-05-03T22:13:32Z aeth: But... I would check with jcowan about SRFI 30
2020-05-03T22:14:45Z erkin: wasamasa: I use the nickname 'e' on some servers and surprisingly I get very few pings.
2020-05-03T22:14:57Z erkin: Only 'i.e', 'e.g' and ':E'
2020-05-03T22:15:06Z erkin: few accidental*
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2020-05-03T22:16:48Z aeth: erkin: I can't find it, so either Bitbucket's search is bad or I typoed "30" or I'm searching the wrong repo. Maybe all of the above.
2020-05-03T22:17:18Z erkin: Haha
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2020-05-03T22:18:02Z aeth: https://bitbucket.org/search?q=repo%3Ar7rs-wg1-infra%20%2230%22&account=%7B5ff8754f-601d-4345-a069-5ebd0d849f2b%7D
2020-05-03T22:18:02Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/VtgZRSA233
2020-05-03T22:18:33Z aeth: What's frustrating, though, is that it looks like standard behavior, so if it's a typo, it's an unfortunate one
2020-05-03T22:19:07Z wasamasa: > SRFIs 30, 38, 62 are incorporated into R7RS-small.
2020-05-03T22:19:41Z wasamasa: rudybot: three for the price of one!
2020-05-03T22:19:43Z rudybot: wasamasa: three types for the price of one
2020-05-03T22:20:36Z jcowan: any compliant R7RS read incorporates #; and #| comments
2020-05-03T22:20:57Z jcowan: That said, a whole lot of SRFIs, including R7RS-large Red and Tangerine ones, have portable implementations
2020-05-03T22:21:06Z jcowan: usually it's just the library wrapper that's different
2020-05-03T22:26:41Z aeth: wasamasa: those 3 are not all... I determined 6, 9, 30, 38, 62, 87, and 98 as part of R7RS-small, although I might have made errors because there wasn't one authoritative spot I could find. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/master/SRFI.md#r7rs-large
2020-05-03T22:27:06Z aeth: (yes, that's part of my R7RS large list, with the "R7RS name" of "R7RS-small" as a sort of workaround)
2020-05-03T22:28:12Z jcowan: look at the R7RS credits
2020-05-03T22:30:20Z aeth: and I probably made a mistake somewhere in that list because it was a chore to work through all of the R7RS stuff
2020-05-03T22:30:59Z aeth: (and that was semi-auto-generated via Emacs commands)
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2020-05-03T23:22:38Z jcowan: : 0, 1, 4, 6, 9, 11, 13, 16, 30, 34, 39, 43, 46, 62, and 87, per the end of the R7RS introduction
2020-05-03T23:22:52Z jcowan: not in full, but influential on R7RS
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2020-05-03T23:23:14Z jcowan: so srfi-4 syntax for bytevectors, for example
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2020-05-03T23:32:39Z aeth: jcowan: well, yes, but that's not full as you said, e.g. 0 was superseded and 1 is in R7RS-large
2020-05-03T23:33:09Z aeth: 43 was superseded as well
2020-05-03T23:33:14Z jcowan: But it was from 0 that R7RS-small's cond-expand got into the language.
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2020-05-03T23:33:52Z jcowan: From 1 we took the 3-arguments versions of member and assoc, in contradiction to R6RS which used an alternative formulation incompatible with SRIF 1
2020-05-03T23:34:12Z jcowan: From SRFI 4 came the syntax of bytevectors and some of the procedures
2020-05-03T23:35:10Z jcowan:  SRFI 6 in full, SRFI 9 in full with enhancements, SRFI 11 in full, a few procedures from SRFI 13, some modified, some as-is
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2020-05-03T23:36:46Z aeth: Well, the list I got was 6, 9, 30, 38, 62, 87, and 98. I hope I didn't typo 39 as 38. I could have.
2020-05-03T23:37:08Z jcowan: srfi 16 in full, srfi 30 in full, srfi 34 in full, srfi 39 partly
2020-05-03T23:37:15Z jcowan: 38 got left out of the list
2020-05-03T23:37:51Z aeth: looks like I have to add 34 to my list
2020-05-03T23:37:54Z jcowan: the syntax we took (from CL), the procedures we renamed
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2020-05-03T23:57:34Z jcowan: 62 in full, 87 in full 98 in full
2020-05-03T23:57:43Z jcowan: I'll add 38 as an erratum
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2020-05-04T00:27:37Z aeth: jcowan: so my list is the full list of... full and the rest are partial? With the caveat that 38 is there but the names would have to be changed in the (srfi 38) library?
2020-05-04T00:28:22Z jcowan: Looks that way, yes
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2020-05-04T00:28:45Z aeth: OK, thanks
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2020-05-05T14:24:28Z SGASAU: DKordic: thus, Forth community has still not managed to get acquainted with ZINC report and/or Krivine machines, right?
2020-05-05T14:24:42Z SGASAU: DKordic: thus, Forth community has still not managed to get acquainted with ZINC report and/or Krivine machines, right?
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2020-05-05T14:25:29Z SGASAU: Alright, let's wait for another decade...
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2020-05-05T14:36:25Z X-Scale: SGASAU: you can ask them directly on #forth
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2020-05-05T14:38:46Z DKordic: AFAIK not yet.  Last time I looked, when You mentioned them, for ""ZINC report"" and ""Krivine Machines"" somehow I had almost no success finding anything.
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2020-05-05T14:40:39Z SGASAU: When I type "Xavier Leroy ZINC report" into google, it brings me a whole page of relevant output.
2020-05-05T14:40:43Z SGASAU: I don't know what you're doing exactly, here's a direct link for you:
2020-05-05T14:40:46Z SGASAU: https://xavierleroy.org/bibrefs/Leroy-ZINC.html
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2020-05-05T14:45:12Z SGASAU: I don't know... If you manage not to find information about Leroy, you must be doing something really wrong.
2020-05-05T14:45:41Z SGASAU: It is almost like managing to find no information on Torvalds.
2020-05-05T14:47:56Z SGASAU: Also, with some slight effort you can find papers for all or almost all presentations of this:
2020-05-05T14:48:00Z SGASAU: https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~hxt/kazam/
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2020-05-05T15:06:29Z DKordic: SGASAU: Thank You.
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2020-05-05T21:04:12Z edw`: Clojure nerds: EDN reader for Chibi/R7RS scheme here: <https://github.com/edw/scheme-edn>
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2020-05-06T01:04:23Z lockywolf: hahaha, just spent 12 hours debugging (swap! set-car! set-cdr!) in my own code :)
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2020-05-06T01:11:58Z erkin: Weren't you arguing for the benefits of mutability earlier?
2020-05-06T01:14:14Z lockywolf: erkin, life is not expected to be easy. Please, don't see this as a rant, it's merely an observation.
2020-05-06T01:14:30Z erkin: :-)
2020-05-06T01:15:42Z lockywolf: I actually have a detailed report on how much each sicp exercise costs in time.
2020-05-06T01:16:17Z lockywolf: those with mutability seems costlier
2020-05-06T01:16:45Z lockywolf: but it doesn't make mutability useless, merely more expensive
2020-05-06T01:17:33Z aeth: mutability costs 9.99 $/month, but if you buy now you can get a year at 50% off
2020-05-06T01:17:48Z aeth: (this is how you monetize a Scheme!)
2020-05-06T01:18:06Z aeth: Infrequent users can simply choose to pay $0.10 a ! instead of going with the subscription.
2020-05-06T01:18:36Z edw: MaaS: Mutability as a Service.
2020-05-06T01:18:48Z aeth: edw: I love it. Can we get funding for our startup?
2020-05-06T01:19:04Z lockywolf: I think that the tuition fees in the universities which still teach scheme are measurably higher than those which do python only.
2020-05-06T01:19:22Z lockywolf: This is how scheme is actually monetized.
2020-05-06T01:21:17Z SGASAU: aeth: shouldn't that read: (Scheme! this is how you monetize it) - ?
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2020-05-06T01:22:01Z aeth: SGASAU: you used a !, that will be $0.10
2020-05-06T01:22:04Z edw: lockywolf: PRs are welcome.
2020-05-06T01:23:30Z lockywolf: edw, for packaging?
2020-05-06T01:23:33Z edw: Also, lockywolf: Is snowfort actually a thing? I never got it to actually work.
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2020-05-06T01:23:37Z edw: Ja.
2020-05-06T01:24:08Z edw: It's an adobe hut, not a snowfort.
2020-05-06T01:26:03Z lockywolf: well, the problem is usually to ping Alex Shinn so that he validates your email
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2020-05-06T01:26:35Z lockywolf: I uploaded two srfi reference implementations there just fine
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2020-05-06T01:30:02Z lockywolf: edw, which pull request do you want? The only thing that I did inside the actual srfi code is I added a Makefile with a target basically doing snow-chibi package "srfi/78.sld"
2020-05-06T01:30:21Z edw: lockywolf: The snow-fort.org site doesn't have a FAQ for how the eff do I package my code? Do you have any pointers?
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2020-05-06T01:31:14Z lockywolf: edw, http://snow-fort.org/doc/author/
2020-05-06T01:31:46Z edw: Ah, merci lockywolf.
2020-05-06T01:33:08Z lockywolf: One thing not documented there is, as I mentioned, pinging Alex Shinn to validate the email.
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2020-05-06T01:34:24Z duncanm: hmm, who's correct here? about using LET with VALUES
2020-05-06T01:34:36Z duncanm: yomigana:mit-scheme (master)$ kawa
2020-05-06T01:34:36Z duncanm: #|kawa:1|# (let ((a (values 1 2))) a)
2020-05-06T01:34:36Z duncanm: 1 2
2020-05-06T01:34:43Z lockywolf: which can be done on http://groups.google.com/group/chibi-scheme
2020-05-06T01:35:03Z Riastradh: duncanm: Some systems just treat `multiple values' as a composite object like a tuple.
2020-05-06T01:35:04Z duncanm: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9sQHWycA/
2020-05-06T01:35:15Z duncanm: oh ahh
2020-05-06T01:35:18Z duncanm: i should try MIT Scheme too
2020-05-06T01:35:23Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme does too.
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2020-05-06T01:36:19Z duncanm: hmm
2020-05-06T01:36:25Z duncanm:   Release 9.2 || Microcode 15.3 || Runtime 15.7 || SF 4.41 || LIAR/C 4.118 || Edwin 3.116
2020-05-06T01:36:25Z duncanm: 1 ]=> (let ((a (values 1 2))) a)
2020-05-06T01:36:25Z duncanm: ;Value 2: #[compiled-closure 2 ("global" #x3b) #x5 #x480dd #x1b1ea2]
2020-05-06T01:36:26Z duncanm: 1 ]=> a
2020-05-06T01:36:27Z duncanm: ;Unbound variable: a
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2020-05-06T01:36:42Z duncanm: that's kinda surprising
2020-05-06T01:36:44Z lockywolf: (display (let ((a (values 1 2))) a)) > ((values) 1 2)
2020-05-06T01:36:47Z Riastradh: Why is that surprising?
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2020-05-06T01:37:00Z duncanm: oh wait
2020-05-06T01:37:06Z duncanm: i did a let, not a define, right
2020-05-06T01:37:08Z lockywolf: duncanm, it's correct, as a only exists within the (let)
2020-05-06T01:37:09Z Riastradh: yes
2020-05-06T01:37:43Z duncanm: nods nods
2020-05-06T01:38:17Z gwatt: interestingly chezscheme does not treat multiple values as a distinct object but will optimize (let ((a (values 1 2))) a) to return 1; 2;
2020-05-06T01:45:48Z duncanm: hmm, homebrew has only MIT Scheme 9.2 available
2020-05-06T01:45:56Z Riastradh: heh
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2020-05-06T01:46:07Z duncanm: that's pretty old? Riastradh it's now up to 10.something?
2020-05-06T01:46:25Z Riastradh: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/issues/52925
2020-05-06T01:46:31Z Riastradh: `patches welcome'
2020-05-06T01:46:35Z duncanm: i saw the thread the other day about the slowdown in the newer releases
2020-05-06T01:46:57Z Riastradh: Which slowdown?
2020-05-06T01:47:03Z Riastradh: A lot of things are waaaaaaaaay faster.
2020-05-06T01:47:09Z duncanm: the thing arthur i think was talking about?
2020-05-06T01:47:11Z Riastradh: (but string operations are possibly slower)
2020-05-06T01:47:24Z Riastradh: Oh, yes, that was an easy bug.
2020-05-06T01:47:24Z duncanm: > `read' is now >200x slower than under 9.2 and 10.1.10.
2020-05-06T01:47:52Z Riastradh: No -- rather, make-hash-table took time linear in the number of hash tables in the system (including garbage ones, before the next GC).
2020-05-06T01:49:22Z duncanm: hmm, let me see if i can figure out some ruby to make some changes to this homebrew formula
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2020-05-06T01:54:37Z erkin: In some Schemes `values' is an alias of `list'.
2020-05-06T01:54:54Z erkin: Which doesn't make me happy.
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2020-05-06T02:45:31Z jcowan: erkin: Which Schemes
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2020-05-06T02:46:05Z jcowan: Chibi uses lists as multiple value objects, but the car is a unique object.  That's conformant.
2020-05-06T02:52:55Z gwatt: I find the values mechanism interesting, but not attractive for use.
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2020-05-06T02:55:50Z aeth: values are only interesting if non-consing
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2020-05-06T03:24:32Z lockywolf_: ew... only 4.79 left
2020-05-06T03:24:46Z lockywolf_: sicp 5.52 took me 25 days
2020-05-06T03:24:56Z lockywolf_: this is unreasonable
2020-05-06T03:25:09Z aeth: it's fine, if you're publishing your answers, it will take anyone else seconds ;-)
2020-05-06T03:25:27Z lockywolf_: Any suggestions how to make an environment-based non-renaming prolog?
2020-05-06T03:25:30Z grant: what is 4.79?
2020-05-06T03:25:58Z lockywolf_: implement an environment-based non-renaming prolog in scheme
2020-05-06T03:26:15Z aeth: ah, 5.52 is exactly what I suspected, basically "write an interpreter in C"
2020-05-06T03:26:53Z aeth: 4.79 is also "write a language" just a different one
2020-05-06T03:26:59Z lockywolf_: aeth, nope, 5.51 is "write an interpreter in C"
2020-05-06T03:27:08Z aeth: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-29.html#%_thm_4.79
2020-05-06T03:27:10Z lockywolf_: 5.52 is "make a scheme->c transpiler"
2020-05-06T03:27:15Z aeth: lockywolf_: ah ok
2020-05-06T03:27:47Z aeth: lockywolf_: how long did 5.51 take you?
2020-05-06T03:28:58Z lockywolf_: aeth, 29 days
2020-05-06T03:29:25Z lockywolf_: I'll make a detailed statistic per exercise when done
2020-05-06T03:30:37Z aeth: lockywolf_: what are you using for your language?
2020-05-06T03:31:03Z lockywolf_: aeth, low-level? Fortran 18
2020-05-06T03:31:21Z aeth: No, I mean which Scheme
2020-05-06T03:31:25Z lockywolf_: r7rs
2020-05-06T03:31:30Z aeth: although for all I know Fortran 18 has an r7rs :-p
2020-05-06T03:31:36Z aeth: lockywolf_: which one? chibi?
2020-05-06T03:31:56Z lockywolf_: yes, chibi
2020-05-06T03:32:21Z aeth: a decent guess since it's basically the "reference" r7rs
2020-05-06T03:32:37Z lockywolf_: I hoped to avoid using any (chibi *) libraries, but had to use (chibi process) in order to implement the picture language
2020-05-06T03:33:14Z lockywolf_: aeth, what do you mean, "Fortran 18 has an r7rs"?
2020-05-06T03:33:21Z Riastradh: r7rs = (chibi *)scheme;
2020-05-06T03:34:12Z lockywolf_: Riastradh, large libraries are available under their (srfi *) names
2020-05-06T03:34:31Z Riastradh: (I am making a stupid bilingual joke)
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2020-05-06T03:34:47Z lockywolf_: ah...
2020-05-06T03:35:23Z lockywolf_: r7rs = (scheme*) chibi; // then?
2020-05-06T03:35:47Z aeth: lockywolf_: you should try running your programs on other R7RSes and see (1) what potential bugs they have and (2) what potential Chibi-specific behavior you might have accidentally relied on
2020-05-06T03:36:26Z aeth: like if e.g. you relied on Chibi's values (discussed above)
2020-05-06T03:37:12Z lockywolf_: I didn't rely on chibi's values. What you are suggesting is good though, but it's hard to do automatically.
2020-05-06T03:37:31Z lockywolf_: I tested some stuff on chicken.
2020-05-06T03:37:49Z aeth: chibi-style r7rs should run on any r7rs except for potentially needing to either modify the .sld or write other define-library files
2020-05-06T03:37:57Z aeth: afaik
2020-05-06T03:38:06Z lockywolf_: should
2020-05-06T03:38:36Z aeth: yes, and when they don't it's an illustration of the issues in current r7rs
2020-05-06T03:38:42Z aeth: which is valuable
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2020-05-06T03:38:50Z aeth: I'm not sure anyone else has written as much r7rs as you have
2020-05-06T03:39:04Z lockywolf_: the biggest problem so far is the library import syntax
2020-05-06T03:39:15Z aeth: example?
2020-05-06T03:39:46Z lockywolf_: well, the (import (package lib)) is not supported
2020-05-06T03:40:08Z lockywolf_: every scheme has its own library system
2020-05-06T03:40:15Z aeth: ah
2020-05-06T03:40:37Z lockywolf_: it's like, _the_ most valuable thing in r7rs
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2020-05-06T03:41:01Z lockywolf_: and the most commonly ignored
2020-05-06T03:41:29Z lockywolf_: I can't say I have written a lot of r7rs, because sicp is largely r4rs
2020-05-06T03:43:57Z aeth: well, for something like 5.51, 5.52, 4.79, etc., you can use whatever you want
2020-05-06T03:43:59Z aeth: very open ended
2020-05-06T03:44:13Z aeth: honestly, I'm impressed you didn't lean heavily on e.g. Racket libraries
2020-05-06T03:44:36Z lockywolf_: I'm a slow thinker
2020-05-06T03:45:26Z lockywolf_: moreover, sicp has a lot of exercises similar to "now take exersice n-100 and check that it runs on your interpreter"
2020-05-06T03:45:49Z lockywolf_: so using racket libraries in ex n-100 guarantees a lot of pain in the future
2020-05-06T03:46:52Z lockywolf_: so "use whatever you want" ends up being "try not to use (cond)"
2020-05-06T03:47:07Z aeth: or it guarantees you an independent implementation of Racket ;-)
2020-05-06T03:47:24Z lockywolf_: I don't need another implementation :)
2020-05-06T03:47:50Z lockywolf_: there are enough scheme implementations in this world
2020-05-06T03:49:40Z lockywolf_: the backlog of tasks in my Planner.org is about 808
2020-05-06T03:50:00Z lockywolf_: and sicp doesn't even deal with macros at all
2020-05-06T03:53:16Z lockywolf_: still, suggestions on implementing 4.79 are very-very welcome
2020-05-06T03:53:45Z lockywolf_: I didn't manage to read schelog's source
2020-05-06T03:55:09Z lockywolf_: so any suggestions on how to make nested prolog rules would be appreciated
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2020-05-06T03:59:49Z lockywolf_: cute little schelog doesn't use any syntactic sugar such as nested defines. ...
2020-05-06T04:00:28Z lockywolf_: are there any plans on adding a prolog interface into r7rs-large?
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2020-05-06T04:18:27Z aeth: lockywolf_: eh, there aren't enough Scheme implementations. e.g. where is the .NET one? There's probably at least one, but you probably can't name any without looking, while I can name Kawa as a JVM Scheme
2020-05-06T04:18:50Z lockywolf_: (facepalm)
2020-05-06T04:23:34Z aeth: I'm glad you made it into a procedure
2020-05-06T04:23:42Z aeth: but is it a pure function?
2020-05-06T04:23:48Z aeth: And which SICP exercise is it?
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2020-05-06T04:35:28Z lockywolf_: aeth, there is not enough prolog implementations in scheme
2020-05-06T04:35:38Z aeth: if prolog is implementable in Scheme
2020-05-06T04:35:39Z lockywolf_: the one with nested rules would be very needed
2020-05-06T04:36:04Z aeth: a while back, there was a Prolog programmer in the Lisp channels and that person claimed that Lisps can't implement Prolog without an extension
2020-05-06T04:37:53Z aeth: idk if call/cc addresses this, though
2020-05-06T04:37:59Z lockywolf_: with call-cc you can do that fine
2020-05-06T04:38:05Z lockywolf_: schelog does the call-cc way
2020-05-06T04:38:54Z lockywolf_: but sicp is more involved. they write a metacircular scheme in scheme, and implement non-deterministic programming, so that you can (amb) in order to trigger all the continuation-based backtracking in the background
2020-05-06T04:38:59Z aeth: of course, Schemes just require call/cc, they don't require an efficient call/cc so the point might still stand since it's about efficient implementation of Prolog
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2020-05-06T04:42:08Z lockywolf_: Programming in Schelog, section 3.3 speaks about lexically-scoped prolog
2020-05-06T04:42:36Z lockywolf_: but I cannot easily understand it
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2020-05-06T05:18:46Z SGASAU: aeth: IronScheme?
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2020-05-06T05:55:00Z mdhughes: "lockywolf_: there are enough scheme implementations in this world": The first schemer to ever say this.
2020-05-06T05:55:56Z amirouche: I wrote something similar on quora... I end up building a scheme...
2020-05-06T05:56:01Z aeth: mdhughes: no, it's true
2020-05-06T05:56:08Z aeth: amirouche: I mean, that is the solution, really
2020-05-06T05:56:18Z aeth: https://xkcd.com/927/
2020-05-06T05:56:25Z aeth: just s/standards/implementations/
2020-05-06T05:56:26Z amirouche: (even if it is based on an existing implementation)
2020-05-06T05:56:57Z amirouche: gambit has two children gerbil and jazzscheme
2020-05-06T05:57:12Z amirouche: they both compile down to gambit
2020-05-06T05:57:59Z lockywolf_: schemetran is deliberately inefficient for this very reason
2020-05-06T05:58:22Z lockywolf_: so that nobody would even consider using it for anything
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2020-05-06T05:58:50Z lockywolf_: (not at all because I am too lazy to debug it properly)
2020-05-06T05:59:30Z aeth: debugging implementations is hard
2020-05-06T05:59:44Z aeth: usually you assume that the compiler/interpreter is correct and that is usually a correct assumption
2020-05-06T06:01:41Z aeth: I guess you could write your language in Haskell, though, because if it compiles then it's correct!
2020-05-06T06:01:59Z lockywolf_: what's cool in fortran is that you can have nested functions, a little bit like in scheme
2020-05-06T06:02:44Z lockywolf_: but you can only have them nested once
2020-05-06T06:02:57Z lockywolf_: so the maximal environment depth is 2
2020-05-06T06:03:08Z lockywolf_: which is still a huge improvement over C
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2020-05-06T08:35:20Z wasamasa: amirouche: you forgot about lambdanative
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2020-05-06T09:56:21Z doomlist3: hey
2020-05-06T09:56:36Z doomlist3: which is scheme's sbcl star compiler? the most optimized?
2020-05-06T09:56:48Z lockywolf: doomlist3, chez
2020-05-06T09:57:24Z doomlist3: what about chicken
2020-05-06T09:58:25Z lockywolf: wasamasa, you knew something about chicken didn't you?
2020-05-06T09:59:21Z lockywolf: what for?
2020-05-06T09:59:51Z wasamasa: yeah, I mostly use that
2020-05-06T10:03:12Z mdhughes: Gambit/Gerbil, Chez, CHICKEN, Racket in descending order for the most part.
2020-05-06T10:03:33Z wasamasa: as for your question, chez is pretty good
2020-05-06T10:03:44Z mdhughes: But, I've not had great success with Gambit or Gerbil FFI, so you're pretty much stuck with the shipped library.
2020-05-06T10:04:26Z mdhughes: Chez makes a binary, but it's not statically linked. Doesn't have a ton of other libraries, but FFI's fine.
2020-05-06T10:04:56Z mdhughes: CHICKEN has a great library, makes static binaries, but speed drops off a lot.
2020-05-06T10:05:15Z wasamasa: hum, that's weird, I'd have expected gambit's FFI to be good considering there's three different schemes derived from it
2020-05-06T10:05:16Z mdhughes: Racket's got all the libraries, but it's so slow in practice.
2020-05-06T10:09:16Z mdhughes: Getting simple (integer) things done in Gambit FFI is easy enough, but object lifecycle management is weird.
2020-05-06T10:10:18Z mdhughes: And it's different in Gambit's macro wrapper.
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2020-05-06T13:36:59Z edw: foof: I lost my Snow priv-ley.scm two or three laptops ago; is there some process adding/replacing a key on snow-fort.org?
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2020-05-06T18:19:15Z userself: 208 pings LMFAO
2020-05-06T18:19:33Z userself: did you talk about chicken scheme again?
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2020-05-06T18:31:12Z wasamasa: of course
2020-05-06T18:31:37Z gwatt: mdhughes: for the record, chez-exe can produce static executables, but it's not  the default behavior.
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2020-05-07T01:42:54Z mdhughes: Nice, I need to look into that again soon, been focused on just getting things working.
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2020-05-07T10:36:54Z gwatt: mdhughes: I never set out to support static executables, but since you can pass arguments to the C compiler, you can pass -static. As long as you've got static versions of requisite libraries, it works.
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2020-05-07T19:49:26Z amirouche: first week of new job :)
2020-05-07T19:49:39Z amirouche: not scheme related, yet... ;)
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2020-05-07T20:03:47Z gwatt: Congrats, and best of luck on converting people to scheme!
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2020-05-07T20:52:37Z zaifir: Anyone know of any state transformer libraries in Scheme?
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2020-05-08T05:09:57Z lockywolf_: Friends, not a scheme question, but this channel is full of experienced programmers any way. What is the good practice of visualizing results of large models? I.e. in simple words, how to structure the code so that plotting code is not too intermixed with the mathematical code, without creating a cargo-cult MVC?
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2020-05-08T05:51:08Z amirouche: lockywolf_: define "results of large models" and "plotting code"
2020-05-08T05:51:50Z amirouche: is "plotting code" code that does math calculations and you want to display graphical representation of the output (of the maths)
2020-05-08T05:52:06Z amirouche: is "plotting code" that does math calculations and you want to display graphical representation of the output (of the maths)
2020-05-08T05:52:59Z lockywolf_: amirouche,
2020-05-08T05:53:00Z lockywolf_: In the dumbest usecase, it works like t = package.Machine_Class.CreateMachine( 'modelname').Model_Temperature_from_Time()
2020-05-08T05:53:38Z lockywolf_: t is something like temp(time) function
2020-05-08T05:54:54Z lockywolf_: at the moment we have, like, a cargo-cult MVC'ish thing
2020-05-08T05:55:27Z lockywolf_: that is, I take this t and run MachineView.Plot_Temperature_From_Time(t)
2020-05-08T05:56:13Z lockywolf_: and the tree-ish structure of Machine_Class and Machine_View mirror each other
2020-05-08T05:57:12Z lockywolf_: in principle thinking that when we have an actual hardware machine, we will be able to hook up a machine-dependent layer and display the plots on actual physical displays
2020-05-08T05:57:44Z lockywolf_: but this in effect means that we have two classes for every entity
2020-05-08T05:57:54Z lockywolf_: Entity_Data and Entity_View
2020-05-08T05:58:09Z lockywolf_: and we need to care about mirroring the two "device trees"
2020-05-08T05:58:27Z lockywolf_: which is kinda a lot of boilerplate and in general looks ugly
2020-05-08T06:17:16Z mdhughes: But that's the most decoupled solution. MVC isolates your logic from display, so those just need to interact with the model/database.
2020-05-08T06:18:52Z mdhughes: Depending on your UI toolkit, you probably don't need a new class for display of any entity, just a function to draw it.
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2020-05-08T07:05:47Z amirouche: +1
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2020-05-08T07:28:21Z lockywolf_: well, entity fields are read-only, so I am not even breaking encapsulation too much. But still, I'm finding it strange that typical "dynamic polymorphism" idea "execute this message in the most natural way for you" or, in my case "present yourself in the most natural way for you" seems to be failing
2020-05-08T07:29:00Z lockywolf_: reasonably, "the most natural" in this case is defined by the display, not by the entity
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2020-05-08T07:35:41Z lockywolf_: ICFP2020 has moved online?
2020-05-08T07:36:46Z Riastradh: Every conference on the planet is online for the indefinite future.
2020-05-08T07:36:49Z Riastradh: (or cancelled)
2020-05-08T07:37:34Z lockywolf_: well, it had been planned quite late in 2020
2020-05-08T07:37:57Z lockywolf_: I thought it might be after the quarantine is over
2020-05-08T07:38:01Z Riastradh: Vaccine is not likely to be ready for 12-18 months.
2020-05-08T07:38:18Z lockywolf_: vaccine for common cold is also not going to appear
2020-05-08T07:38:31Z Riastradh: Common cold doesn't kill 3% of the people it meets.
2020-05-08T07:38:45Z lockywolf_: because it has already killed everyone succeptible
2020-05-08T07:41:25Z Riastradh: Is that your idea of a joke?
2020-05-08T07:42:23Z lockywolf_: does it matter?
2020-05-08T07:43:13Z lockywolf_: anyway I'm not in a position to lift the quarantine
2020-05-08T07:43:32Z Riastradh: Kinda like to know whether it was supposed to be a joke that I just didn't get, or whether you're actually comparing COVID-19 to the common cold.
2020-05-08T07:47:10Z lockywolf_: Are you an epidemiologist, an infectious disease specialist, or a vaccine developer?
2020-05-08T07:47:39Z iv4nshm4k0v: Evolution doesn't stop.  There aren't really much choices for humanity beyond either those susceptible being selected off, or the species becoming extinct.
2020-05-08T07:50:54Z iv4nshm4k0v: (It's different for the diseases such as TBE or rabies, due to them not being transmitted by air.)
2020-05-08T07:51:38Z Riastradh: I'm a human who shares the planet with you.  COVID-19 spreads like the common cold, which is to say if one person brings it to the conference then ~everyone will leave with it, but it kills like the worst flus, and it is rapidly becoming the leading cause of death in many places.  I hope you take that seriously.
2020-05-08T07:52:39Z lockywolf_: Riastradh, I believe we all take that seriously. We just don't want to live in cleanrooms till we are dead. A 3% risk of death is worth this freedom.
2020-05-08T07:53:34Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf_: It's one case when it's 3% risk of death for you personally -- or for everyone around you instead.
2020-05-08T07:53:35Z lockywolf_: (I*) we.
2020-05-08T07:54:11Z lockywolf_: well, the probabilities don't add up
2020-05-08T07:54:49Z lockywolf_: those who sell their freedom for security usually get neither of thos
2020-05-08T07:54:59Z Riastradh: If you're just going to build up bullshit strawmen and disregard the impact of mass spikes in death and human suffering caused directly by holding conferences in the short term, I don't think you are taking this seriously.
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2020-05-08T07:55:48Z lockywolf_: How much is "short term"?
2020-05-08T07:55:50Z lockywolf_: *how long
2020-05-08T07:56:26Z lockywolf_: We still have airport inspection measures in place that were introduced in the aviation code by the U.S. after the 9/11.
2020-05-08T07:56:39Z Riastradh: Depends on how well humanity responds.  Maybe if everyone managed to follow the model of Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea, perhaps it won't be necessary to wait for a vaccine.
2020-05-08T07:56:59Z lockywolf_: that's a little short of 20 years
2020-05-08T07:57:00Z lockywolf_: they already didn't
2020-05-08T07:57:23Z lockywolf_: I am not suggesting to move this particular ICFP back offline in 2020
2020-05-08T07:57:29Z iv4nshm4k0v: Riastradh: I find that doubtful; my guess is that "a generation or two" is more realistic.
2020-05-08T07:57:43Z lockywolf_: ^^^
2020-05-08T07:59:00Z lockywolf_: but I don't want another paranoiacs security theater akin to the 9/11 airport measures
2020-05-08T07:59:08Z lockywolf_: for the next 20 years
2020-05-08T08:00:04Z Riastradh: Please find a more meaningful comparison.  It was abundantly clear from the beginning to anyone who cared that the security theatre in 2001 was neither necessary nor particularly effective.  In contrast, it is pretty clear that avoiding the spread of droplets through indoor air circulation is very effective.
2020-05-08T08:00:10Z Riastradh: Comparable flu pandemics in recent history -- 1918, 1957, 1968 -- took a couple years to abate.
2020-05-08T08:00:50Z lockywolf_: and we still don't have a bulletproof flu vaccine
2020-05-08T08:01:10Z lockywolf_: we do have a family of weak vaccinces
2020-05-08T08:02:10Z lockywolf_: I believe this comparison to be "good enough".
2020-05-08T08:02:21Z Riastradh: All I ask is that you take this seriously and not pretend that this is anything remotely comparable to the common cold or 9/11 TSA nonsense.
2020-05-08T08:02:48Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf_: The "paranoiacs security theater" is based on the assumption that /you/ are the terrorist.  COVID-19 means that you can indeed be one, and won't even know about that.
2020-05-08T08:03:34Z lockywolf_: that is true, but that was not the main point I tried to make
2020-05-08T08:04:34Z lockywolf_: the main point is that in both cases (even if one is much more serious than another) the response of the system is doing more harm than the problem it is trying to solve
2020-05-08T08:05:52Z Riastradh: What is the harm, I wonder, of suddenly about doubling or tripling the death rate in society?  `OH SHIT THE ECONOMY'
2020-05-08T08:07:16Z lockywolf_: I'd rather say, the mental well-being of people being locked down.
2020-05-08T08:07:45Z lockywolf_: as well as the economy
2020-05-08T08:07:52Z lockywolf_: people are mortal
2020-05-08T08:08:00Z lockywolf_: sorry to remind everyone
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2020-05-08T08:10:38Z lockywolf_: http://worldtravaillers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Do-not-rescusitate-tattoo-300x170.jpg
2020-05-08T08:11:11Z rbarraud: Never resuscitate a tattoo.
2020-05-08T08:12:27Z Riastradh: It's perfectly fine to be concerned for a lot of adverse consequences of large-scale social distancing and staying at home, like a severe spike in domestic violence.  Just don't even start with comparisons to the common cold, please, or the proposition that the economy and everyone's mental health would clearly be better off with even more mass deaths.
2020-05-08T08:12:32Z Riastradh *zzz*
2020-05-08T08:13:24Z lockywolf_: I understand you view and respect it, but I disagree.
2020-05-08T08:13:58Z rbarraud: Some people have ppretty weak definitions of 'respect'... :'(
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2020-05-08T08:15:30Z Riastradh: (suggesting `do not resuscitate' for yourself is any kind of way to justify your belittling of a global pandemic that spreads irrespective of your intent is some pretty special kind of selfishness)
2020-05-08T08:18:34Z lockywolf_: I am a very selfish person.
2020-05-08T08:21:29Z rbarraud: How about "Shoot me, I'm a deliberate Spreader!"?
2020-05-08T08:21:47Z rbarraud: That I could get behind (for perpetrators).
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2020-05-08T08:22:18Z rbarraud: Or "Too Selfish To Vote"?
2020-05-08T08:22:27Z rbarraud: That'd get mine.
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2020-05-08T08:22:58Z rbarraud: Hot topic for me as only this afternoon I had a random asshat knocking on our door to ask about flatmate's disabled car.
2020-05-08T08:23:06Z rbarraud: We're still in level 3 lockdown.
2020-05-08T08:23:50Z rbarraud: I reminded him of that and his responsibility (by law, not to mention common sense and consideration for others), he became abusive so I filled in a Breach Report.
2020-05-08T08:23:55Z rbarraud: F*** him.
2020-05-08T08:24:28Z iv4nshm4k0v likes how they do voting in Australia
2020-05-08T08:24:43Z rbarraud: 6 weeks nearly, there are still FeckTards who just WILL NOT get the message.
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2020-05-08T08:25:07Z rbarraud: iv4nshm4k0v: Do you mean the fact that they actually *do* voting?
2020-05-08T08:25:08Z rbarraud: :-/
2020-05-08T08:25:46Z rbarraud: Anyhow </rant>, sorry for the #Triggered, peeps :-)
2020-05-08T08:26:13Z rbarraud: So what's new in the Schemiverse today?
2020-05-08T08:26:32Z rbarraud: I haven't freakin' touched my B0rgScheme code for moons :'(
2020-05-08T08:27:06Z lockywolf_: we still need good quality libraries and/or bindings
2020-05-08T08:27:14Z rbarraud: Always :-)
2020-05-08T08:27:22Z rbarraud: Else PL/Iitis :-/
2020-05-08T08:27:48Z lockywolf_: Scheme Workshop 2020 deadline is due the 15th of May
2020-05-08T08:28:01Z rbarraud: TYhat just happens to be part of my All-Singing, All-Dancing World Domination Plan.
2020-05-08T08:28:09Z rbarraud: For paper submissions?
2020-05-08T08:28:23Z rbarraud: When's it held?
2020-05-08T08:28:31Z rbarraud: Presumably it'll be online only?
2020-05-08T08:28:42Z rbarraud: deets URL please?
2020-05-08T08:28:50Z iv4nshm4k0v: rbarraud: I mean their "vote, or get fined" laws.
2020-05-08T08:29:18Z rbarraud: [Not that I will likely be ready to present / have any academic Street Cred :-/ (Lowly B.Sc CompSci major)]
2020-05-08T08:29:25Z rbarraud: Oh!
2020-05-08T08:29:26Z rbarraud: Sorry
2020-05-08T08:29:34Z rbarraud:  r/wooosh moi :-/
2020-05-08T08:29:47Z rbarraud: Mea Derplpa!
2020-05-08T08:30:15Z lockywolf_: I find it a strange solution to fine people for not voting.
2020-05-08T08:31:16Z rbarraud: Riastradh: You can probably add New Zealand to the list...
2020-05-08T08:31:24Z rbarraud: ...for now at least.
2020-05-08T08:31:29Z rbarraud: So Far So Good.
2020-05-08T08:31:34Z lockywolf_: Not because universal voting is bad, but because equating this to an offence is not very logical
2020-05-08T08:32:18Z rbarraud: Never conflate convention with logic.
2020-05-08T08:32:31Z rbarraud: Or law with truth.
2020-05-08T08:32:33Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf_: I find it stranger still to not vote, and then complain that "they" make your country worse.  (Compare that to jury duty, for instance.)
2020-05-08T08:33:13Z rbarraud: Fortunately I look Einstein enough that I get "Challenge!" ;-)
2020-05-08T08:33:54Z rbarraud: [Actually I would be fine with doing my duty on ajury... esp if there are no crooks leaking my deets to heavies]
2020-05-08T08:33:57Z lockywolf_: iv4nshm4k0v, I actually once won elections as an army of one
2020-05-08T08:34:13Z rbarraud: Was there an opposition candidate?
2020-05-08T08:34:17Z rbarraud: Or apathy FTW?
2020-05-08T08:34:19Z rbarraud: :-)
2020-05-08T08:34:33Z lockywolf_: my candidate was the opposition candidate
2020-05-08T08:34:35Z rbarraud: Or do you Know Someone? :-/
2020-05-08T08:34:55Z lockywolf_: basically took a month vacation, and literally knocked on every door in the neighbourhood
2020-05-08T08:34:57Z rbarraud: Ahh - Dissatisfaction FTW :-)
2020-05-08T08:35:10Z rbarraud: WAT - Actual Effort?
2020-05-08T08:35:12Z rbarraud: :-)
2020-05-08T08:35:14Z lockywolf_: saying "please vote for my amazing representative"
2020-05-08T08:35:17Z rbarraud: Well done!
2020-05-08T08:35:48Z lockywolf_: this was almost like a double-blind test, because the candidate was standing along with her father in the adjacent districts
2020-05-08T08:35:55Z lockywolf_: and she won, and he didn't
2020-05-08T08:36:04Z rbarraud: :-)
2020-05-08T08:36:30Z lockywolf_ is overwhelmed by the grandiose feeling of self-importance
2020-05-08T08:41:45Z lockywolf_: rbarraud, if you are interested in Closure: https://github.com/edw/scheme-edn
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2020-05-08T08:55:10Z rbarraud: Thanks lockywolf_
2020-05-08T08:55:50Z rbarraud: Mainly sticking to SICP style MIT Scheme (with modern enhancements) - and my own homebrew attempt :-)
2020-05-08T08:56:07Z rbarraud: But still open to eclectic experience :-)
2020-05-08T08:56:28Z rbarraud: I'm somewhat familiar with Closure.
2020-05-08T08:56:56Z rbarraud: I'm a Rich fan... but not a Rich Fan :'(
2020-05-08T08:58:23Z rbarraud: [Under present conditions, Housed, Clothed and Fed Fan is looking pretty good...]
2020-05-08T08:59:16Z rbarraud: </me tucks into roast chicken prepared meal from local supermarket - $NZ3.50 (~$US5) ... not baaaad>
2020-05-08T08:59:41Z rbarraud: (pepper food)
2020-05-08T09:00:14Z rbarraud: I'm in NZ BTW
2020-05-08T09:00:27Z rbarraud: 2100 NZST here.
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2020-05-08T09:02:37Z lockywolf_: does pstk work for you?
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2020-05-08T10:39:45Z wasamasa: I made it work before
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2020-05-08T15:30:55Z rbarraud: Zzzz
2020-05-08T15:31:13Z amirouche: rudybot: what is the point of named-let?
2020-05-08T15:31:34Z rudybot: amirouche: Same with your recursion point in a named let.
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2020-05-08T15:41:19Z rbarraud: (RTFM problem)
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2020-05-08T15:41:21Z rbarraud: ...
2020-05-08T15:41:26Z rbarraud: Zzzzz
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2020-05-08T16:02:46Z zaifir: amirouche: It's a little more readable than the equivalent letrec-then-application, I suppose.
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2020-05-09T04:10:00Z lockywolf: where is the best place to keep precision parameters of a model?
2020-05-09T04:11:21Z lockywolf: i.e. I have a certain matrix, which in principle should be produced by a microscope, but for testing purposes is just generated to be an approximation of a "circle of ones"
2020-05-09T04:11:47Z lockywolf: and the "precision/speed" parameter is the size of the matrix
2020-05-09T04:13:28Z lockywolf: I am tempted to attach this parameter to the matrix-generating function, possibly in the message-passing style. But this means that "speed parameters" would be scattered all over the model.
2020-05-09T04:14:29Z lockywolf: I can make a separate "speed parameters" object, but this would mean that this object should be aware of all of the model structure.
2020-05-09T04:14:42Z lockywolf: Both solutions seem not good
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2020-05-09T14:32:06Z SGASAU: lockywolf_: if you switch to MVP thinking, you may have less objects than MVC.
2020-05-09T14:32:44Z SGASAU: (Or more, depending on what features you want exactly.)
2020-05-09T14:33:27Z lockywolf_: SGASAU, looking at it, thank you
2020-05-09T14:33:36Z SGASAU: lockywolf_: metadata belong to data, BTW.
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2020-05-09T14:34:45Z SGASAU: You most likely want to keep them together, unless you want to keep them separate temporarily for performance or temporary convenience reasons.
2020-05-09T14:35:37Z SGASAU hates reports without any indication of methods used, including numerical postprocessing.
2020-05-09T14:37:11Z SGASAU: In you case (note, I may have missed something!), I'd consider creating rich metadata object to use it for reference in other subroutines.
2020-05-09T14:37:21Z jcowan: I have devised a pair of protocols, one binary and one S-expression-based, for communicating Lispy data.  The S-expressions are recognizably like Lisp's (lists, vectors, symbols, strings, integer and flonum numbers), but I lack a good name for the protocols.
2020-05-09T14:37:48Z wasamasa: didn't the crypto people already do that with s-expressions
2020-05-09T14:37:56Z jcowan: I have been calling them (or it) Core, for hysterical raisins, but that is no longer appropriate, it being no longer a core protocol but a highly extensible one.
2020-05-09T14:38:04Z wasamasa: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/Sexp.txt
2020-05-09T14:38:30Z SGASAU: (ASN.1 reinvented once again?..)
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2020-05-09T14:39:30Z wasamasa: yeah, the world would be better off with sane asn.1 parsers
2020-05-09T14:40:41Z jcowan: Yes, ASN.1 is the binary part of the protocol
2020-05-09T14:41:17Z SGASAU: lockywolf_: basically, if you want to save on granularity of updates, you can have larger presenters that scatter data across visual objects.
2020-05-09T14:41:32Z SGASAU: lockywolf_: you can even have one single presenter, if you wish.
2020-05-09T14:43:39Z SGASAU: lockywolf_: one benefit I find in this is that you can create a number of data dumps at checkpoints and offload visualization to something that has been already developed for you, like ParaView.
2020-05-09T14:44:35Z SGASAU: lockywolf_: yet, again, it all depends on what you want exactly.
2020-05-09T14:47:04Z jcowan: What I discovered about ASN.1 BER is that it is a perfect fit for dynamic languages, and so much for schemas and all their horrors.
2020-05-09T14:48:02Z SGASAU nods.
2020-05-09T14:48:48Z SGASAU: In my opinion, the world has too many serialization formats already.
2020-05-09T14:49:13Z SGASAU: Most ranging from awful to awful awful.
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2020-05-09T14:50:01Z iv4nshm4k0v: +1.
2020-05-09T14:51:41Z SGASAU: This indicates the inner complexity of the problem, thus any attempt to simplify is going to result either in "yet another BER, PER or XER", as complex as listed or something with significant limitations and/or defects.
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2020-05-09T14:55:52Z SGASAU: Oh, and another thing to note is on attempts to create human-readable or even human-editable format. :)
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2020-05-09T15:00:12Z SGASAU: I'm puzzled how nobody notices that you're performing essentially the same operations as programming when you write and execute "simple query expressions".
2020-05-09T15:00:55Z SGASAU: As a consequence, even data format could as well be binary.
2020-05-09T15:01:33Z jcowan: One of the original Cobol design points was that code could be understood (not written) by business analysts: they could follow it as prose and see that it did the Right Thing
2020-05-09T15:01:36Z SGASAU: And you do almost what machines do when navigating in a way to highlight target regions of your serialized data.
2020-05-09T15:01:40Z jcowan: which is why Cobol programs look like recipes.
2020-05-09T15:02:20Z wasamasa: here's one actually implementing a recipe: https://depp.brause.cc/nostalgia/blinmaker.cob
2020-05-09T15:02:21Z SGASAU: The same reason why UML is actually really good idea.
2020-05-09T15:03:11Z SGASAU: As PureData and few other similar languages.
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2020-05-09T15:06:28Z mdhughes: NeXT already had the perfect* format, Property Lists. Then Apple fucked it up by switching from original text format to a pair of XML & binary formats, and the XML parsers all have bugs.
2020-05-09T15:06:53Z mdhughes: * (as long as you only want to serialize Objective-C compatible types)
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2020-05-09T15:11:16Z jcowan: https://tinyurl.com/asn1-ler is my set of representations for Lispy data as ASN.1 and S-expressions
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2020-05-09T15:21:25Z mdhughes: I don't generally think it's needed in Scheme. You can serialize most types out to sexpr and back in. The only ugly part is hashtables which have no literal format; you end up dumping into alist and then writing a parser to pull back in.
2020-05-09T15:22:29Z mdhughes: JSON works OK, except you still don't know how to deserialize hashtables, and big integers have to be strings, which is insane.
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2020-05-09T15:23:55Z mdhughes: But either parser is a very short task.
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2020-05-09T15:39:31Z jcowan: With R7RS-large, though, there will be a lot more data types that it would be good to serialize
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2020-05-09T22:05:22Z gwatt: mdhughes: I think the biggest problem with serializing hashtables is that you need to serialize the hash & equality procedures as well.
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2020-05-09T22:08:34Z mdhughes: That's what I mean. You either need metadata and some way to read that, or guess based on the initial key.
2020-05-09T22:09:44Z mdhughes: So in practice, just write a little parser to read/write them as alists.
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2020-05-09T22:10:42Z mdhughes: Record types are a problem, except in CHICKEN there's a ctor/printer hook.
2020-05-09T22:11:22Z gwatt: same for chez, but that still doesn't solve the hash+equality problem
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2020-05-10T07:03:56Z lockywolf: eh... (let) is the best thing invented by mankind ever...
2020-05-10T07:05:18Z iv4nshm4k0v: lockywolf: Huh? better than lambda?
2020-05-10T07:06:41Z lockywolf: well, I don't find missing lambda in other languages as much I find missing let
2020-05-10T07:07:27Z zaifir: If you've got a correct λ, adding let should be trivial.
2020-05-10T07:09:44Z lockywolf: well, if the laguage you're using supports syntactic extension
2020-05-10T07:10:09Z lockywolf: which almost no language doe
2020-05-10T07:10:10Z lockywolf: s
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2020-05-10T07:12:57Z zaifir: Right, right.  Maybe that's the "best thing ever", then.
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2020-05-10T07:14:10Z lockywolf: well, I'm just being emotional
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2020-05-10T10:33:28Z marshmallow: Can anyone explain me this? (define (foo c) (begin c 2) 3) (display (foo (lambda (x) x)))
2020-05-10T10:33:42Z marshmallow: Now, why (display (call/cc foo)) returns 2?
2020-05-10T10:34:27Z marshmallow: Shouldn't return 3 anyways, despite the continuation?
2020-05-10T10:41:18Z weinholt: marshmallow, what implementation are you using?
2020-05-10T10:41:33Z marshmallow: Scheme w/ racket?
2020-05-10T10:42:16Z DKordic: marshmallow: IMHO we should first consider Delimited Continuations, ""shift"" and ""reset"" instead of ""call/cc""?
2020-05-10T10:42:43Z marshmallow: mind explaining more in layman terms what's going on there exactly?
2020-05-10T10:42:46Z marshmallow: kinda new to scheme
2020-05-10T10:42:48Z weinholt: marshmallow, hmm, i tried racket 7.6 from the command line and it returns 3
2020-05-10T10:43:33Z marshmallow: weinholt: https://repl.it/repls/SweetAnimatedKernelmode
2020-05-10T10:44:44Z weinholt: marshmallow, in that code you're calling the continuation, so it makes sense that it would return 2. in the code you pasted here there's a begin
2020-05-10T10:46:51Z marshmallow: umm ok, so basically I call the continuation when I call the function argument? because is this the way that scheme passes the continuation?
2020-05-10T10:48:28Z DKordic: I think Sintactic Sugar is the main cause of confusion.  Desugar first.  ""call/cc"" is nonsense.  http://LandOfLisp.com/ describes call/cc as time travel.
2020-05-10T10:48:54Z marshmallow: weinholt: what has changed with the introduction of begin?
2020-05-10T10:49:42Z weinholt: marshmallow, (begin c 2) is not a procedure call whereas (c 2) is a procedure call
2020-05-10T10:51:12Z marshmallow: weinholt, so what is exactly (begin c 2) ?
2020-05-10T10:51:34Z weinholt: marshmallow, when begin appears in the body like that it's the same as writing (define (foo c) c 2 3)
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2020-05-10T16:54:11Z zaifir: DKordic: Ignotum per ignotius.  It was a fairly straightforward question about call/cc, I think.
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2020-05-10T16:57:56Z zaifir: marshmallow: Since the body of foo evaluates c, then 2, then 3, I think the value would always be 3, unless evaluating c doesn't terminate or otherwise throws the computation off the rails.
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2020-05-10T16:58:47Z zaifir: marshmallow: If (define (foo c) (begin c 2) 3) (call/cc foo) gives you 2, that's a mystery to me.
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2020-05-10T17:37:43Z pjb: zaifir: (let ((c 'anything)) (begin c 2)) -> 2 ; what else???
2020-05-10T17:38:08Z pjb: zaifir: what is a continuation already?
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2020-05-10T17:58:35Z zaifir: pjb: The procedure was (define (foo c) (begin c 2) 3).  So (foo 'anything-whose-evaluation-terminates) ; => 3
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2020-05-10T18:21:47Z amirouche: hello #scheme
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2020-05-10T18:35:41Z zaifir: amirouche: Hey amz.
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2020-05-10T20:47:30Z jcowan: Delimited continuations are a great thing.  The only problem is that (as the Racket module shows) there are way too many ways to do them.  Evidently Racket was designed so that you run the examples from anybody's paper.
2020-05-10T20:48:46Z wasamasa: delightfully devilish
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2020-05-10T20:53:45Z msiism: As it seems, the base case in a recursive function always must return the same data type as the recursion step, i.e., there's no bailing out on condition xy. I encountered that when trying to concatenate a list of strings into a string: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/24592eb8
2020-05-10T20:54:42Z msiism: Now, I'm not sure what string to return in the base case. I've just chosen a newline as the first best thing that came to my mind.
2020-05-10T20:56:10Z wasamasa: why not the empty string?
2020-05-10T20:56:27Z msiism: Yeah, that's what I thought, too. I just need to look that up.
2020-05-10T20:56:31Z msiism: The newline is a bit nonsensical.
2020-05-10T20:56:58Z msiism: wasamasa: So, using the empty string in that case would be good practice?
2020-05-10T20:57:05Z wasamasa: yes, it's the neutral element
2020-05-10T20:57:14Z wasamasa: like an empty list for list contruction
2020-05-10T20:57:22Z wasamasa: or 0 for summing numbers
2020-05-10T20:57:40Z msiism: Okay, I'm beginning to get the picture.
2020-05-10T20:57:47Z wasamasa: anyway, your example looks like a roundabout way of using substring and (apply string-append ...)
2020-05-10T20:58:54Z msiism: wasamasa: Yeah, there's probably a lot to improve. It's kind of what I could come up with without looking up too much. Kind of a littel Sunday exercise.
2020-05-10T20:59:10Z wasamasa: The Little Schemer has lots such exercises
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2020-05-10T21:00:07Z msiism: wasamasa: Ok, I'm reading "Teach yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days", at the moment. When I'm finished with that, I'll move on to "The Little Schemer".
2020-05-10T21:00:23Z wasamasa: ah, I remember now :>
2020-05-10T21:00:27Z msiism: :)
2020-05-10T21:00:30Z TCZ: lol
2020-05-10T21:00:39Z wasamasa: how is your study going?
2020-05-10T21:00:52Z wasamasa: did you have any issues with using the book's code with racket?
2020-05-10T21:01:40Z msiism: Pretty good, I'd say. I really like the book, except the author always writing "eg" insetad of "e.g.", but okay… But otherwise it really fits me well.
2020-05-10T21:02:22Z msiism: About running Scheme code. That's still a bit of a mess. If I do a real program, I tend to put it in a text file and then run it with Guile.
2020-05-10T21:02:29Z wasamasa: come to think of it, even if there are someone could publish a list of errata as diff to adjust a book :D
2020-05-10T21:02:48Z msiism: Yeah, I've thought about that.
2020-05-10T21:03:02Z wasamasa: weird, I thought that wouldn't be a problem in racket since they advocate against using repl-driven development
2020-05-10T21:03:16Z wasamasa: there should be a keybind in their IDE to load up the current file in a fresh environment
2020-05-10T21:03:46Z msiism: Well, I haven't tried in Racket. Because you'd have to use a special shebang for running standard Scheme as scripts.
2020-05-10T21:04:51Z wasamasa: so you're doing the book with guile?
2020-05-10T21:05:06Z msiism: Sort of. Sometimes I use the Racket REPL.
2020-05-10T21:05:23Z msiism: Yeah, I need to sort this out.
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2020-05-10T21:05:38Z wasamasa: and yes, you need to specify #lang whatever
2020-05-10T21:05:48Z wasamasa: that's the price of using racket
2020-05-10T21:06:01Z msiism: Right. I've bookmarked the page explaining that somewhere.
2020-05-10T21:07:20Z msiism: I have one other question about that code I posted above:
2020-05-10T21:07:47Z msiism: Should I rather be using characters instaed of strings in the list that is made a string?
2020-05-10T21:07:55Z msiism: Because that's essentially what this is about.
2020-05-10T21:08:10Z msiism: But then, I'd have to convert the characters, I guess.
2020-05-10T21:08:56Z wasamasa: I'd only do this if you operate on characters only
2020-05-10T21:09:08Z wasamasa: for example if you wanted to write a string upcasing procedure
2020-05-10T21:09:19Z wasamasa: that can be expressed as mapping each character to its uppercase part
2020-05-10T21:10:03Z msiism: And, if I wanted, say, to generate all alphabetic HTML hex color codes?
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2020-05-10T21:10:32Z wasamasa: that doesn't need to involve characters at all
2020-05-10T21:11:26Z wasamasa: there is a certain elegance to doing list processing with characters, but it's far from the only way
2020-05-10T21:12:56Z msiism: I see. Well, in the case of those color codes, I could probably just count up a number and put each of its hex representations in a list.
2020-05-10T21:13:17Z wasamasa: yup
2020-05-10T21:14:06Z msiism: Ok, that seems easier. I'll look into that.
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2020-05-10T21:24:04Z msiism: wasamasa: Thanks for your help. I'm beginning to like recursion.
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2020-05-10T21:43:39Z zaifir: rudybot: We've got another one hooked!
2020-05-10T21:43:42Z rudybot: zaifir: another way is to simply set a variable and change it in a function hooked to  after-change-functions
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2020-05-11T09:21:14Z xuxx: hi
2020-05-11T09:21:22Z xuxx: what's the differences between eq? and equal ?
2020-05-11T09:21:48Z ecraven: it's kind of like the following: eq? compares what a value is, equal? what it looks like
2020-05-11T09:22:07Z ecraven: so two things may look the same, then they are equal?  (equal? (list 1 2) (list 1 2)) -> #t
2020-05-11T09:22:20Z ecraven: but they may internally be different, so (eq? (list 1 2) (list 1 2)) -> #f
2020-05-11T09:22:27Z ecraven: for details, check r7rs
2020-05-11T09:23:38Z xuxx: ok so eq? is checking the adress of elements ?
2020-05-11T09:23:45Z ecraven: internally, yes
2020-05-11T09:23:50Z xuxx: ty
2020-05-11T09:24:25Z ecraven: but beware, some schemes may optimize things.. it is not defined whether (eq? '(1 2) '(1 2)) is #t or #f
2020-05-11T09:24:33Z ecraven: some schemes return #t, soem
2020-05-11T09:24:35Z ecraven: some #f
2020-05-11T09:25:49Z xuxx: And another things : is map on a list return a new list ?
2020-05-11T09:26:05Z ecraven: yes, map "maps" each element of a list to a new element in a new list
2020-05-11T09:27:35Z ecraven: rudybot: (map (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) '(1 2 3 5 7))
2020-05-11T09:27:46Z rudybot: ecraven: error: with-limit: out of time
2020-05-11T09:28:14Z ecraven: rudybot: eval (map (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) '(1 2 3 5 7))
2020-05-11T09:28:18Z rudybot: ecraven: your sandbox is ready
2020-05-11T09:28:18Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: '(2 3 4 6 8)
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2020-05-11T10:54:40Z aeth: xuxx: Intuitively, think about eq? as involving pointer addresses, yes. Abstractly, this doesn't have to be the case since there are many different possible platforms, implementations, etc.
2020-05-11T10:55:39Z aeth: eq? could just be the same as equal? too afaik. Since it's mostly unspecified
2020-05-11T10:56:00Z aeth: but it's probably addresses.
2020-05-11T10:58:40Z zaifir: I think eq? is sort of historical.
2020-05-11T11:00:18Z ecraven: it's still very useful
2020-05-11T11:00:22Z ecraven: eqv? is the strange one out
2020-05-11T11:01:07Z zaifir: eqv? does what you want if you want an equivalence predicate.  eq? just has the wrinkle of maybe behaving differently on empty strings, etc.
2020-05-11T11:01:15Z zaifir: I think eq? is the strange one out.
2020-05-11T11:01:42Z zaifir: The standard spends about a page on eqv?, and a paragraph on eq?.
2020-05-11T11:02:01Z ecraven: isn't eqv? vs. eq? mostly about numbers?
2020-05-11T11:03:49Z zaifir: ecraven: Sure, but the difference is that eq? has implementation-defined behavior on numbers.  Not exactly a plus.
2020-05-11T11:04:39Z ecraven: hm.. never looked at it from that point of view
2020-05-11T11:04:48Z ecraven: eq? is just plain fast, I guess, not many guarantees
2020-05-11T11:05:01Z zaifir: Although it might be faster than eqv? on numbers, per the rationale (R7 PDF p. 32)
2020-05-11T11:05:20Z zaifir: Yeah.
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2020-05-11T12:57:47Z lockywolf__: Okay, sicp done.
2020-05-11T12:58:10Z lockywolf__: the solution to 4.79 is shitty, but it does avoid the need to rename variables
2020-05-11T13:06:20Z zaifir: lockywolf__: Did you write your compiler? :)
2020-05-11T13:06:43Z lockywolf__: zaifir, you mean, scheme to low language?
2020-05-11T13:06:44Z lockywolf__: yeah
2020-05-11T13:06:51Z lockywolf__: that's 5.52
2020-05-11T13:07:02Z zaifir: lockywolf__: Can I see?
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2020-05-11T13:07:37Z lockywolf__: zaifir, https://gitlab.com/Lockywolf/chibi-sicp/-/blob/master/index.org
2020-05-11T13:08:09Z zaifir: lockywolf__: ty
2020-05-11T13:08:13Z lockywolf__: ?
2020-05-11T13:08:24Z zaifir: lockywolf__: Thank You :)
2020-05-11T13:08:43Z lockywolf__: :)
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2020-05-11T13:26:05Z lockywolf__: zaifir, the garbage collection is kinda shitty though
2020-05-11T13:26:50Z lockywolf__: I mean, it should be collecting strings and symbols when those get referenced by the cons memory.
2020-05-11T13:27:21Z lockywolf__: but there are numerous places when strings, symbols and numbers don't get into the cons memory, so those are lost
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2020-05-11T13:29:24Z zaifir: lockywolf__: I don't see where the compiler code is.
2020-05-11T13:29:42Z lockywolf__: 5.52
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2020-05-11T13:29:53Z zaifir: lockywolf__: Yeah, the GC is where I threw my hands up, IIRC.  SICP just doesn't provide enough detail on implementing one.
2020-05-11T13:30:30Z lockywolf__: well, it does.. sorta
2020-05-11T13:30:41Z lockywolf__: but certainly not for symbols and strings
2020-05-11T13:31:08Z lockywolf__: so the meat of the compiler is in the "c-fortran-compile-and-dont-go" block
2020-05-11T13:31:52Z lockywolf__: it's not a full-featured compiler, as that wasn't requested. just enough to compile the metacircular evaluator and run a factorial
2020-05-11T13:32:09Z lockywolf__: also it tests eq? in O(n)
2020-05-11T13:32:20Z lockywolf__: for symbols
2020-05-11T13:32:58Z zaifir: lockywolf__: 5.52 in your repo says "TODO".
2020-05-11T13:33:17Z lockywolf__: er?
2020-05-11T13:34:10Z lockywolf__: are you actually looking at the index.org, not index.md?
2020-05-11T13:34:23Z zaifir: Oh, that's the README.
2020-05-11T13:34:58Z lockywolf__: I haven't debugged the exported version yet.
2020-05-11T13:35:08Z zaifir: It's a bit difficult to navigate a 1.9 MB text file.
2020-05-11T13:35:21Z lockywolf__: yeah...
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2020-05-11T13:35:33Z lockywolf__: emacs starts to crawl :(
2020-05-11T13:35:47Z lockywolf__: I had to turn off font-lock-mode
2020-05-11T13:37:04Z lockywolf__: but I never expected it to grow that big...
2020-05-11T13:41:34Z zaifir: lockywolf__: Well, I still can't find it.  Searching the file for "5.52" or "compile" gives no results.
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2020-05-11T13:49:42Z lockywolf: zaifir, do you have line 65127?
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2020-05-11T13:52:09Z lockywolf: you need to download the file, as gitlab's built-in viewer fails on such long files
2020-05-11T13:52:41Z lockywolf: it's funny that in 2020 we still consider diskette-sized files "large"
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2020-05-11T14:07:07Z zaifir: lockywolf: Hah, thanks.  That was it.
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2020-05-11T14:08:06Z zaifir: lockywolf: I'm impressed.  This whole repo must be months or years of work.
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2020-05-11T14:11:42Z lockywolf: zaifir, 739 hours 19 minutes
2020-05-11T14:11:51Z lockywolf: of work
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2020-05-11T14:13:02Z lockywolf: spread over 292 study sessions and 8 months
2020-05-11T14:13:38Z zaifir: lockywolf: Sussman and Abelson should send you a signed Knights Of The λ-Calculus badge.
2020-05-11T14:14:07Z lockywolf: I am actually trying to aggregate this data into a report and try to present it on the Scheme Workshop
2020-05-11T14:14:15Z lockywolf: But only 4 days left
2020-05-11T14:14:24Z lockywolf: And I still have a full-time job
2020-05-11T14:14:51Z lockywolf: I obviously don't have a girlfriend
2020-05-11T14:15:45Z wasamasa: there's always a next opportunity
2020-05-11T14:16:16Z zaifir: Why would that be obvious?  Perhaps your girlfriend got you into SICP.
2020-05-11T14:17:54Z mdhughes: Just tell any girl you finished SICP, and she'll all but rip your clothes off right there.
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2020-05-11T14:23:04Z zaifir: *sigh*.  The two stereotypes: programming is for lonely male nerds, or programming is for macho male nerds.
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2020-05-11T14:24:01Z mdhughes: The stereotype: Nerds are not human and therefore have no personality or sexuality other than coding.
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2020-05-11T14:29:19Z lockywolf_: all suspects are guilty. otherwise they wouldn't be suspects
2020-05-11T14:29:52Z lockywolf_: for macho but lonely male nerds
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2020-05-11T20:42:16Z aeth: zaifir: well, the latter aren't programmers, they're brogrammers, and they're programming (or are they?) for a startup because they think they'll get rich
2020-05-11T20:42:24Z aeth: the kind of person who would've gone into law 10-30 years ago
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2020-05-11T21:36:25Z zaifir: aeth: Or they're mustached, gun-toting authors of buggy email-clients...
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2020-05-11T21:59:10Z jcowan: zaifir: ESR definitely didn't go into programming in order to get rich.
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2020-05-11T21:59:44Z zaifir: Oh no, the category was "macho nerds".
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2020-05-11T22:01:51Z zaifir: I totally respect his hacker cred.  He does have a little bit of a penchant for tough-guy talk, though.
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2020-05-12T07:57:29Z tdammers: I guess ESR's most important contribution to hacker culture is PR-ing against the philantropic image of free software
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2020-05-12T08:08:44Z liangchao: exit
2020-05-12T08:08:50Z liangchao: exit
2020-05-12T08:08:52Z liangchao: q
2020-05-12T08:08:56Z liangchao: disconnect
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2020-05-12T09:46:08Z aeth: those 4 attempts to quit remind me of https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
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2020-05-12T10:11:17Z srandon111: hello all guys, how should i read "the little schemer" ?
2020-05-12T10:11:33Z srandon111: i mean the first question asks me if something is an atom...
2020-05-12T10:11:40Z srandon111: but i had no definitions anywhere
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2020-05-12T10:17:46Z wasamasa: it should tell you how to define it if your scheme doesn't have that
2020-05-12T10:17:57Z wasamasa: or even if it does, I would redefine it to ensure their definition is used
2020-05-12T10:18:32Z C-Keen: also the questions aren't directed at you as a reader
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2020-05-12T10:18:43Z C-Keen: it's a stupid platonic dialog
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2020-05-12T10:19:37Z wasamasa: > Do not rush through this book. Read carefully; valuable hints are scattered throughout the text. Do not read the book in fewer than three sittings.
2020-05-12T10:19:48Z wasamasa: the atom? hint follows
2020-05-12T10:22:37Z ecraven: srandon111: some people love it, some decidedly don't... just read a bit, if you like it, read it, if you don't, there are other books, at least as good ;)
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2020-05-12T10:25:33Z wasamasa: the oddest thing about it is how systematic it is compared to other texts
2020-05-12T10:26:29Z wasamasa: all the lisp texts explain how an evaluator works, but usually skip something trivial
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2020-05-12T10:29:02Z srandon111: wasamasa, ok so basically i should read both question and answer right?
2020-05-12T10:29:14Z wasamasa: yeah, like when studying vocabulary
2020-05-12T10:29:24Z wasamasa: you're not expected to know all that stuff
2020-05-12T10:29:35Z wasamasa: but as you study it, you'll be able to answer more and more of it
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2020-05-12T10:32:22Z C-Keen: wasamasa: 'trivial' no there's not a lot of trivial material for beginners though
2020-05-12T10:32:44Z wasamasa: they have a line explaining the ))) part in a definition :D
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2020-05-12T10:34:05Z C-Keen: They did a lot of iterations with students of that text obviously
2020-05-12T10:35:23Z wasamasa: but then the format is kind of limiting
2020-05-12T10:36:08Z wasamasa: you cannot explain preliminary concepts that way, like why you decided to name a procedure lat?
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2020-05-12T10:36:44Z wasamasa: I've been able to guess it because I went through other texts before
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2020-05-12T15:04:40Z duncanm: Riastradh: morning
2020-05-12T15:05:43Z Riastradh: Hi!
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2020-05-12T15:12:32Z rain1: hi
2020-05-12T15:12:34Z rain1: how are you doing Riastradh
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2020-05-12T15:16:37Z srandon111: ecraven, which are the other books as the little schemer as good ?
2020-05-12T15:17:14Z rain1: the reasonecd schemer is great
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2020-05-12T15:51:08Z jcowan: srandon111: The whole family is excellent, though quite diverse
2020-05-12T15:51:15Z jcowan has them all now
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2020-05-12T16:02:47Z lockywolf_: Is there something like (apply f argl env) for syntax?
2020-05-12T16:04:09Z lockywolf_: (transform transformer datumlist syntactic-env)?
2020-05-12T16:05:49Z lockywolf_: I'm just thinking about the structure of the metacircular evaluator from the chapter 4 of the SICP, and although it is possible to forward all of the functions of the underlying scheme into the metacircular scheme, it doesn't work like this with syntax
2020-05-12T16:06:47Z lockywolf_: because (display let) => ERROR: invalid use of syntax as value: let
2020-05-12T16:07:41Z lockywolf_: there must be a way to forward syntactic expansion too
2020-05-12T16:08:23Z jcowan: Not really.  That's like asking a C compiler to also handle Perl syntax: it can be done, but not in any general-purpose way.
2020-05-12T16:09:03Z jcowan: CL has a macroexpand function that works like you are describing, but it's rarely used in actual code; mostly for debugging macros.
2020-05-12T16:09:36Z jcowan: oops, I mean "helping to debug macros", not "macros for debugging"
2020-05-12T16:15:02Z pjb: also, remember that macros are functions like any other function.  So any tool or technique you use to debug functions can be used to debug macros!
2020-05-12T16:16:14Z zaifir: They aren't functions, but the debugging techniques are similar.
2020-05-12T16:19:02Z zaifir: I mean, they aren't "like any other [Lisp] function".  That's just going to confuse people.
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2020-05-12T16:50:41Z Franciman: Hello!
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2020-05-12T16:56:44Z Franciman: I don't know if this is strictly allowed, but I am trying to choose between gambit and chez scheme
2020-05-12T16:56:53Z Franciman: what do you think has the better tools?
2020-05-12T16:56:58Z Franciman: i.e. REPL + compiler
2020-05-12T16:57:10Z wasamasa: chez
2020-05-12T16:57:11Z bitmapper: chez has better repl and compiler
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2020-05-12T16:57:26Z Franciman: thanks!
2020-05-12T16:57:30Z wasamasa: pick a more meaningful topic, like what libraries you need
2020-05-12T16:57:47Z Franciman: actually none, I want to implement a stupid numerical algorithm
2020-05-12T16:57:51Z Franciman: to calculate integrals
2020-05-12T16:57:55Z wasamasa: then go ahead
2020-05-12T16:57:56Z Franciman: so speed could be important
2020-05-12T16:58:11Z Franciman: but since I am a beginner I wanted to have comfortable tools
2020-05-12T16:58:13Z Franciman: then thanks
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2020-05-12T17:01:02Z zaifir: Don't worry about speed until something you've written is really too slow for your needs.
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2020-05-12T17:23:51Z jcowan: zaifir: pjb exists to confuse people
2020-05-12T17:24:09Z C-Keen: heh
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2020-05-12T17:48:33Z pjb: zaifir: I was talking about CL macros. They are functions!
2020-05-12T17:48:36Z srandon111: pjb, damn
2020-05-12T17:48:52Z pjb: zaifir: go to #clschool to know more.
2020-05-12T17:51:51Z ecraven: srandon111: I'd suggest (amond others) SICP and the (a bit old, but imho rather good) Programming in Scheme
2020-05-12T17:52:06Z ecraven: I liked Les Langages LISP a lot, but ymmv there
2020-05-12T17:58:43Z duncanm: hey ecraven
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2020-05-12T17:58:50Z ecraven: hey duncanm ;)
2020-05-12T17:59:47Z duncanm: Riastradh: hey, so it turns out my local homebrew repo wasn't at the right branch, so after fixing that
2020-05-12T18:00:13Z duncanm: I have 10.1.10 now, but it feels like it's gotten slower?
2020-05-12T18:00:38Z duncanm: i looked at the homebrew formuia: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/blob/master/Formula/mit-scheme.rb
2020-05-12T18:01:04Z duncanm: i saw your comment in the Issue, i don't quite understand if there's something to be fixed
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2020-05-12T18:14:25Z Riastradh: duncanm: On macOS there's no reason to use the svm1 version instead of the native amd64 version.
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2020-05-12T18:14:52Z Riastradh: It's just a lot slower.
2020-05-12T18:14:58Z duncanm: yea, i see that
2020-05-12T18:15:13Z duncanm: so there's this line here
2020-05-12T18:15:15Z duncanm:   url "https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mit-scheme/stable.pkg/10.1.10/mit-scheme-10.1.10-svm1.tar.gz"
2020-05-12T18:15:29Z Riastradh: duncanm: The issue upstream is that they want a `source' distribution, but they're OK with a binary distribution if you _also_ use it to build a source distribution which is the thing that actually gets installed.
2020-05-12T18:15:33Z duncanm: and instead, where can I get x64 native binaries for Mac? from the DMG?
2020-05-12T18:15:49Z Riastradh: So presumably what they would want is a script that:
2020-05-12T18:16:26Z Riastradh: 1. downloads mit-scheme-10.1.10-x86-64.tar.gz and installs it somewhere temporary, as in `./configure --prefix=$WORKDIR/usr' if $WORKDIR is where the temporary build state goes
2020-05-12T18:16:41Z duncanm: okay, that's like what you wrote in the issue
2020-05-12T18:16:54Z Riastradh: 2. downloads mit-scheme-10.1.10.tar.gz, builds it with $WORKDIR/usr/bin in PATH, and installs it in the real location
2020-05-12T18:17:20Z duncanm: oh, so i can just use
2020-05-12T18:17:21Z duncanm: 	mit-scheme-10.1.10-x86-64.tar.gz	2019-08-10 20:31	67M	
2020-05-12T18:17:25Z Riastradh: should be
2020-05-12T18:17:27Z duncanm: i thought that might only be good on Linux, but okay
2020-05-12T18:17:42Z Riastradh: (I don't have any macOS systems and I've never used homebrew, so not worthwhile for me to try to make it work, but I'm happy to help you get it to work if you want.)
2020-05-12T18:17:49Z duncanm: sounds good
2020-05-12T18:17:54Z duncanm: i'll give it a try this week
2020-05-12T18:18:02Z bitmapper: what's the issue?
2020-05-12T18:18:12Z Riastradh: mit-scheme-10.1.10-x86-64.tar.gz is supposed to work on any OS -- the Scheme part (which is OS-independent) is pre-built, but the C part (which is OS-dependent) is not.
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2020-05-12T18:18:30Z bitmapper: it does though
2020-05-12T18:18:33Z duncanm: bitmapper: it's using the svm1 build of MIT Scheme for Homebrew, and it's slower
2020-05-12T18:18:41Z bitmapper: yeah, i saw that
2020-05-12T18:18:48Z bitmapper: i built my own x86_64 version
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2020-05-12T18:19:18Z Riastradh: Here's the Homebrew issue for reference: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/issues/52925
2020-05-12T18:19:46Z Riastradh: (Apparently `we couldn't be bothered to fix it within a month' is a reason to treat an issue as closed?)
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2020-05-12T18:22:57Z Riastradh: (FYI, you can probably take out the `ENV.deparallelize' part, and maybe just skip `-march' altogether.)
2020-05-12T18:23:00Z jcowan: The way to get a bureaucracy to do something that matters to you (such as fix your broken front door) is to pester it gently but relentlessly.  You didn't do that, and so you got written off.
2020-05-12T18:23:17Z Riastradh: jcowan: Wasn't my issue, someone else reported it.
2020-05-12T18:23:22Z Riastradh: I have no skin in this game!
2020-05-12T18:23:41Z jcowan: Okay, then my remark should be addressed to whoever did report it.
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2020-05-12T18:24:48Z Riastradh: I just think it's funny that they have apparently automated closing issues on the grounds of round tuits.
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2020-05-12T18:24:59Z Riastradh: not enough round tuits, guess it's not an issue any more
2020-05-12T18:25:53Z wasamasa: let's write a bot countering these bots
2020-05-12T18:26:17Z wasamasa: "My name's Bob and I find this issue terribly important. Is there an update?"
2020-05-12T18:26:32Z jcowan: A bug is a bug, but an issue that nobody cares about is not an issue.
2020-05-12T18:26:56Z Riastradh: jcowan: It violates their own standards, apparently.
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2020-05-12T18:27:10Z Riastradh: antibob-bot: `You sound like Bob, a bot that serves only to tickle issues.  Closing.'
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2020-05-12T18:37:00Z jcowan: Perhaps Bob and Antibob could be in fact the same bot.
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2020-05-12T18:37:58Z dTal: wouldn't they mutually annihilate, emitting a photon?
2020-05-12T18:42:58Z jcowan: A photon, an antineutrino, and a neutrino.
2020-05-12T18:44:01Z mdhughes: I was wondering which mit-scheme MacPorts had, and it needed me to selfupdate, and then reported it had no ports(!), so I've done it again and now it's updating & building like normal.
2020-05-12T18:45:02Z mdhughes: So the answer is: A) don't update anything, it sucks. B) port only has 9.2.3, brew has the (slow?) 10. version.
2020-05-12T18:48:27Z mdhughes: And C) it doesn't matter anyway, I've got the standalone 10.1.10 app installed. I don't even remember updating that.
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2020-05-13T01:32:05Z lockywolf: weird. I would find this a valuable feature
2020-05-13T01:32:23Z lockywolf: I mean, metacircular syntactic expansion
2020-05-13T01:33:13Z lockywolf: I am not an expert, but I don't feel like it should be as hard as a c->perl transformation
2020-05-13T01:35:06Z lockywolf: after all, the read syntax is the same
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2020-05-13T06:52:29Z remix2000: Hi everyone, what should one do to serialize/deserialize continuations? Could it be done in pure scheme? Or maybe some modifications to the interpreter would be required? I'm stuck with s7 r.n., so chicken's s11n probably won't work there?
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2020-05-13T13:27:36Z pinoaffe: remix2000: what are you trying to achieve by serializing continuations?
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2020-05-13T13:47:33Z Franciman: Hi
2020-05-13T13:48:13Z Franciman: Using chez-scheme for my program, I get this error: Exception in car: 0 is not a pair
2020-05-13T13:48:21Z Franciman: so uhm, how do I get a more expressive error?
2020-05-13T13:48:33Z Franciman: for example at which line the exception was thrown
2020-05-13T13:57:34Z Franciman: nvm solved
2020-05-13T13:57:36Z Franciman: I was silly
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2020-05-13T14:44:38Z ecraven: (debug)
2020-05-13T14:48:25Z remix2000: pinoaffe: I wanted to experiment with saving whole complex program state in a uniform way. My very particular use case for this is saving simulation state. Continuation serialization is tempting in this case, as such mechanism eliminates the need to maintain a somewhat sound data structure for current simulation state and therefore speed up prototyping a lot. tl;dr: sounds like a lot of fun :P
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2020-05-13T14:49:33Z remix2000: Our common lisp friends have a thing called hu.dwim.delico (sic!) which claims to do exactly what I want
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2020-05-13T14:51:48Z remix2000: I have a problem with common lisp though: even ECL is problematic to compile for my target platform. On the other hand, _at least_ one scheme implementation works there ;)
2020-05-13T14:57:08Z wasamasa: which is?
2020-05-13T14:57:15Z remix2000: s7 :P
2020-05-13T14:57:31Z C-Keen: chibi also should do
2020-05-13T14:58:17Z wasamasa: remix2000: I meant the platform, but s7 is cool
2020-05-13T14:58:21Z remix2000: Well, I like chibi a lot and that was the first impl I've tried to run, but haven't managed to port it yet.
2020-05-13T14:58:49Z remix2000: Well, platform is mipsallegrexel-psp AKA PlayStation Portable (PSP) :D
2020-05-13T14:59:12Z wasamasa: oho
2020-05-13T14:59:30Z wasamasa: I had a clear case one long time ago
2020-05-13T15:01:44Z remix2000: Custom built? Or has Sony actually been selling a transparent one?
2020-05-13T15:02:24Z remix2000: wasamasa:  ^
2020-05-13T15:02:41Z wasamasa: I bought a cheap case from ebay and swapped the original one out
2020-05-13T15:03:12Z wasamasa: you're going to make homebrew games for it?
2020-05-13T15:04:44Z remix2000: I want to experiment a bit with it, but whether I'll actually make anything serious - I don't know yet :)
2020-05-13T15:08:51Z remix2000: Storing continuations for game saves sounds like a pretty obvious way. Naughty Dog does that from what I've heard.
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2020-05-13T19:17:10Z SGASAU: zaifir: what I find disturbing in so-called "western" so-called "cultures" is the subtly but toughly imposed gender restriction in engineering.
2020-05-13T19:17:18Z SGASAU: Software engineering included.
2020-05-13T19:18:15Z SGASAU: 3 females in a 50-person soft. dev. company? Seriously?
2020-05-13T19:18:42Z SGASAU: Secretary, accountant and janitor - nice!
2020-05-13T19:19:10Z SGASAU: C-Keen: That's Nuremberg, BTW.
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2020-05-13T19:20:31Z SGASAU: As if software development requires physical capabilities...
2020-05-13T19:22:47Z SGASAU: (Hm. Not an accountant, actually. Essentially, another secretary. Even worse.)
2020-05-13T19:25:07Z pjb: SGASAU: while you have only 3% of CS students that are female, you cannot expect to have more than 3% of female programmers.  Furthermore, a lot of those female CS students end up doing something else than programming!!!
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2020-05-13T19:26:18Z SGASAU: pjb: I have absolutely no idea, how they manage end up with outcome like that given how (relatively) prestigious and "clean" the profession is.
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2020-05-13T19:31:16Z pjb: SGASAU: no, it's not prestigious and clean at all.  We are pimpled four-eyes nerds.
2020-05-13T19:31:29Z SGASAU: :D
2020-05-13T19:31:37Z pjb: SGASAU: girls hate us from the start, because we spend all our times with computers.
2020-05-13T19:31:40Z SGASAU: pjb: 3% reminds me only of one institution: MIPT. Yet it was somewhat affiliated with military (involved into nuclear, missile and similar projects), hence somewhat special tradition (it provided somewhat crappy accomodation in my time).
2020-05-13T19:34:20Z pjb: SGASAU: granted, since the internet and 3-comma startups, gold-diggers may find some interest in some of us, but they're smart enough to realize that this apply only to 0.01% of programmers, and it's better to gold-dig them by improving their sexual status rather than trying to become one of them.
2020-05-13T19:36:32Z SGASAU: I don't know.
2020-05-13T19:37:43Z SGASAU: I worked in companies where female engineers comprised between 15 and 50% of all people involved.
2020-05-13T19:38:21Z tdammers: gender disparity in software engineering is a notorious issue
2020-05-13T19:38:29Z SGASAU: It was 15% only in the case when it involved working with antennas.
2020-05-13T19:38:41Z tdammers: truth is, nobody really knows why it exists, but everybody seems to have a theory
2020-05-13T19:40:12Z tdammers: what's even more perplexing is why so many other traditionally male-dominated industries and professions are doing a much better job at it
2020-05-13T19:40:21Z tdammers: like, say, aviation
2020-05-13T19:40:48Z SGASAU: I don't know the situation in aviation.
2020-05-13T19:41:37Z tdammers: used to be almost 100% male; the ratio is steadily shifting though
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2020-05-13T19:42:04Z pjb: SGASAU: there are also a ton of enterprises where there are 90% of women.  Strangely enough, the IT service is usually staffed by the only males…
2020-05-13T19:42:41Z SGASAU: pjb: phone operators, I know.
2020-05-13T19:42:42Z pjb: The truth is that there are differences between male and female, and that lead them to choose different jobs.
2020-05-13T19:42:55Z pjb: SGASAU: I was thinking about some newspapers.
2020-05-13T19:42:56Z SGASAU: Yes, there are.
2020-05-13T19:43:31Z SGASAU: Hm.
2020-05-13T19:44:14Z SGASAU: When I was near news agency, there weren't huge disparity.
2020-05-13T19:44:22Z SGASAU: Well... There were differences, sure.
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2020-05-13T19:45:01Z SGASAU: Again, the only reporter who visited conflict zones was male.
2020-05-13T19:45:34Z pjb: It's well known, women always let men do the hard and risky work.  They tend to just marry and profit.
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2020-05-13T19:45:55Z pjb: They used to make babies as counterpart, but not so anymore.
2020-05-13T19:45:58Z SGASAU: There's clear evolutionary argument behind it.
2020-05-13T19:46:06Z SGASAU: I do not have any problem with it.
2020-05-13T19:46:18Z pjb: I have.
2020-05-13T19:46:35Z SGASAU: Well...
2020-05-13T19:47:22Z SGASAU: Someone has to do dangerous jobs, for community it is better when those people are not female.
2020-05-13T19:47:26Z SGASAU shrugs.
2020-05-13T19:48:59Z SGASAU: I don't know why you object though. It's unlikely that you will have to pick up arms in your life.
2020-05-13T19:49:08Z SGASAU: There're a lot of safe jobs around.
2020-05-13T19:49:14Z SGASAU: Software development, for instance.
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2020-05-13T19:50:52Z tdammers: case in point; my wife's work is more dangerous than mine
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2020-05-13T19:56:55Z pjb: SGASAU: software development is dangerous. Staying always sat down… Very bad for health, weight, back, legs, etc.
2020-05-13T19:57:07Z pjb: not counting eyes, hands, …
2020-05-13T19:58:32Z SGASAU: Hm. Are you required to sit all 8 hours? Never heard of that...
2020-05-13T20:00:06Z pjb: It's rather a static activity.  Weither you do it standing up, or sat down.  In either case, it's bad for bodies made for movement.
2020-05-13T20:00:09Z SGASAU: (A former colleague of mine has bought a special table so that she could adjust height and work standing most of the time while being able to sit down when tired...)
2020-05-13T20:00:44Z ecraven: SGASAU: many employers here won't get you that sort of equipment, you'd have to shell out all by yourself for it
2020-05-13T20:01:58Z SGASAU: ecraven: I have no idea how exactly she arranged that, yet she did.
2020-05-13T20:02:44Z SGASAU: In any case, I don't remember a lot of objections on walking around periodically.
2020-05-13T20:02:45Z gwatt: when my employer moved buildings everyone got these fancy programmable adjustable height desks
2020-05-13T20:05:00Z SGASAU: Our neighbour group has managed to follow Andropov's trend.
2020-05-13T20:05:59Z SGASAU: They took it even further: they had the iron in a corner in open. :)
2020-05-13T20:06:41Z SGASAU: (I doubt that they actually knew the origin of it though...)
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2020-05-13T22:32:03Z aeth: Software development in VR will be a lot better. Stand up, sit down, whatever, your setup will follow you around. You'll need several improvements over current VR, though: (1) much better resolution since you need to work with text all day and (2) BCI input, since if you require the keyboard you're still going to be tied to a desk
2020-05-13T22:32:18Z aeth: You can probably do #2 without a chip in your brain
2020-05-13T22:32:27Z aeth: So it's maybe only 10-15 years away
2020-05-13T22:33:52Z aeth: As for women not doing dangerous jobs, that's just not true. Nursing is a traditionally female job, and it's a job that's also incredibly dangerous, especially in times like now.
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2020-05-13T23:36:43Z jcowan: SGASAU: The reason is that CS departments look for freshmen who already know how to program (so they don't have to teach programming) and in secondary school that skews heavily male
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2020-05-13T23:37:27Z jcowan: When $MAJOR_US_TECH_UNI (which I am contractually obliged not to name) stopped making that a criterion, the gender gap went away.
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2020-05-13T23:52:01Z pjb: Yes, exactly what I said.  Girls loath nerds.  So they don't learn programming by themselve when they're in school.  Once they have to choose a university, they may find out that programming is clean safe and pays well enough, so they may want to do it by default.  But they don't know anything about it.
2020-05-13T23:52:36Z pjb: Now, what will you hire, a girl with 2 years courses in programming behind her, or a guy with 10 years programming experience plus 2 years courses in programming behind him?
2020-05-13T23:52:40Z Riastradh: maybe girls just don't want to deal with pjb
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2020-05-13T23:55:09Z aeth: pjb: nerds were uncool 20 years ago, but as soon as nerds started making lots of money in startups, that stopped.
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2020-05-13T23:55:58Z aeth: pjb: Nowadays, every kid is a nerd, watching superhero movies and anime, playing D&D, etc. All the stuff that I stayed away from as a teen because I didn't want to lower myself even further down in the hierarchy of coolness.
2020-05-13T23:56:25Z aeth: Although arguably, all of that stuff is "geeky" rather than "nerdy", whereas programming is truly nerdy
2020-05-13T23:59:52Z aeth: pjb: even in the late 90s you could see the change in culture. e.g. The Matrix.
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2020-05-14T01:17:38Z jcowan: pjb: Who looks at people's secondary-school experience?  Even now, new grads don't have ten years of *professional* experience behind them.
2020-05-14T01:19:57Z mdhughes: It's basically impossible to get a software job at most companies if you DO have 10 years experience. At that point they take you out back of the barn with a shotgun.
2020-05-14T01:22:30Z mdhughes: Women not staying in software has more to do with certain Harvard & other ivy school-educated execs molesting every woman they've ever hired. Places that don't do that, tend to be pretty close to parity.
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2020-05-14T01:29:36Z jcowan: That's staying in, not getting in.
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2020-05-14T01:33:47Z jcowan: mdhughes: You have evidence for that claim, or just anecdotes?
2020-05-14T01:33:57Z mdhughes: Places without assholes in charge (and even some with) didn't have problems getting women to work there. My 'zon teams were 30+% women, several startups were >50%.
2020-05-14T01:34:43Z mdhughes: I am not a sociologist collecting data, just a guy who's contracted at a lot of companies.
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2020-05-14T05:13:22Z lockywolf_: Our department has about a third of ladies.
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2020-05-14T05:16:08Z lockywolf_: But I work in a 99% Chinese company.
2020-05-14T05:17:42Z lockywolf_: I remember hearing that as the society grows richer, the gender gap grows bigger, because this allows for a greater development of personal proclivities instead of being purely rational when choosing a job.
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2020-05-14T05:18:53Z lockywolf_: I find it funny to see that where I live, the M/F ratio of taxi drivers driving four-wheeled cars is _way_ higher than the same ratio among taxi drivers driving motorcycles.
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2020-05-14T05:19:44Z lockywolf_: Women often drive bike-taxis, and seldom drive 4-wheeled taxis.
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2020-05-14T07:55:25Z tdammers: I think it's more complicated than that
2020-05-14T07:55:57Z tdammers: as a society gets richer, family sized tend to shrink, which means the whole birthing/childcare thing becomes less of an issue, and being competitive on the job becomes easier for the child-bearer
2020-05-14T07:56:40Z tdammers: richer societies will also often, though not always (*cough*USA*cough*) have better social facilities that reduce the penalty of staying home to raise children
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2020-05-14T08:27:12Z aeth: the Lisp channels have #lispcafe for off-topic (it's not affiliated with #lisp, or it would be called #lisp-cafe) but I think few Schemers use it.
2020-05-14T08:27:29Z aeth: it's also quite noisy
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2020-05-14T12:54:05Z jcowan: My experience is that with multiple Scheme channels, there is a lot more tolerance for off-topicness, as long as it doesn't lead to flaming
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2020-05-14T15:40:03Z dTal: (offtopic? (eq (typing-style 'irc-message) (typing-style 'sexpr)))
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2020-05-14T16:39:08Z zaifir: dTal: Somehow I doubt eq? can compare those objects.
2020-05-14T16:39:45Z dTal: depends what (typing-style) returns
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2020-05-14T16:41:27Z dTal: I was picturing a symbol.
2020-05-14T16:42:05Z dTal: anyway it's eq not eq? so it does whatever I say it does
2020-05-14T16:42:20Z zaifir: dTal: In lojban, you can use prefix forms ("forethought") for many things, so perhaps that would be a better candidate than say English for a sexp syntax.
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2020-05-14T16:43:26Z dTal: Hm, lisp for English would be a really cool project.
2020-05-14T16:44:20Z zaifir: Englisp?
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2020-05-14T17:05:15Z gwatt: English already has a lisp it's pronounced "lithp"
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2020-05-14T17:48:06Z pinoaffe: zaifir: I think the language "Latel" should be used with an s-exp syntax :0
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2020-05-14T17:48:59Z pinoaffe: http://sigbovik.org/2019/proceedings.pdf#subsection.0.29
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2020-05-14T18:21:36Z zaifir: pinoaffe: Interesting, if probably impossible to use.  At first glance it looks a lot like Wilkins's Real Character updated for modern logic.
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2020-05-14T18:22:31Z zaifir: "In LATEL, deep philosophical concepts ... are very easy to express.  One minor disadvantage is that mundane everyday concepts, ... which are of no interest anyways, are difficult to express."
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2020-05-14T18:41:20Z pinoaffe: zaifir: I kind-of want to translate wittgensteins tractatus logico-philosophicus into latel, but it would be quite a bit of work
2020-05-14T18:41:21Z pinoaffe: but yes, it's not useful
2020-05-14T18:43:23Z zaifir: I have the sense that LATEL is what early Wittgenstein would have come up with as a "useful practical language".
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2020-05-14T18:44:16Z zaifir: (Later Wittgenstein probably would have handed you a bag of rocks or a cat or something.)
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2020-05-14T18:45:14Z pinoaffe: zaifir: agreed :)
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2020-05-14T20:37:51Z jcowan: at one point I was designing a Lisp implementation to be called Blesite
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2020-05-15T12:00:54Z lockywolf_: I remember somebody asking how much time took writing a scheme interpreter in Fortran. The answer is 96 hours.
2020-05-15T12:01:24Z lockywolf_: Spread over 28 days, that's about 3 hours a day.
2020-05-15T12:01:42Z lockywolf_: That included learning Fortran.
2020-05-15T12:04:20Z mdhughes: But it's so useful if you travel back to 1975 and only have access to a DEC with FORTAN.
2020-05-15T12:04:36Z mdhughes: s/TAN/TRAN/
2020-05-15T12:05:12Z lockywolf_: Well, it's written in Fortran 18
2020-05-15T12:05:23Z lockywolf_: Not so much.
2020-05-15T12:05:58Z mdhughes: Well now you have to implement Fortran 18 in FORTRAN 66 so you can run Scheme…
2020-05-15T12:06:13Z lockywolf_: Luckily Fortran 2018, not FORTRAN 1918
2020-05-15T12:06:25Z wasamasa: lol
2020-05-15T12:06:33Z wasamasa: I don't even want to imagine FORTRAN 1918
2020-05-15T12:08:03Z mdhughes: At least they solved the Year 1900 problem, imagine if all the clacks hadn't been updated and suddenly it was 1800 again.
2020-05-15T12:09:08Z mdhughes: (see also the only "steampunk" book worth reading: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/337116.The_Difference_Engine )
2020-05-15T12:11:09Z lockywolf_: The soviet space project didn't use any electronic computing machines, as far as I remember.
2020-05-15T12:11:19Z lockywolf_: I mean, the first one.
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2020-05-15T12:13:19Z lockywolf_: Also, I vaguely remember people using analogue computers at that time.
2020-05-15T12:14:29Z lockywolf_: Like, fitting a lab-room setup that would be using the same equations as a real machine, times some constant factor.
2020-05-15T12:14:34Z mdhughes: Which aren't really "computers", just differential gears. A few tabulators and adding machines almost let you "program" a sequence.
2020-05-15T12:15:23Z lockywolf_: Fully immutable
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2020-05-15T17:14:36Z jcowan: Does anyone know of a Scheme that uses a pointer tag to show that it's pointing at a pair?  The usual Scheme scheme is to have immediates (fixnums, characters, (), eof-object, an internal "not bound" and "unspecified value) and non-immediates (everything else).
2020-05-15T17:14:49Z Riastradh: jcowan: Scheme48
2020-05-15T17:14:55Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme
2020-05-15T17:15:08Z Riastradh: Oh, well.
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2020-05-15T17:16:05Z Riastradh: No, Scheme48 doesn't have pair specifically (although MIT Scheme does).  But I think T has pair specifically.
2020-05-15T17:16:38Z jcowan: unsurprising about MIT
2020-05-15T17:16:59Z Riastradh: Scheme48 has fixnum, immediate (non-fixnum immediate), header (first word of heap storage for a stored object), and stob (`stored object').
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2020-05-15T17:19:18Z Riastradh: T had fixnum, immediate, extend (equivalent of Scheme `stored object'), and pair.  (The role of header was fit into immediate.)
2020-05-15T17:19:28Z Riastradh: (define-constant tag/fixnum    0)
2020-05-15T17:19:28Z Riastradh: (define-constant tag/immediate 1)
2020-05-15T17:19:28Z Riastradh: (define-constant tag/extend    2)
2020-05-15T17:19:28Z Riastradh: (define-constant tag/pair      3)
2020-05-15T17:19:52Z jcowan: so most more recent implementations don't bothe
2020-05-15T17:20:00Z jcowan: s/$/r
2020-05-15T17:20:09Z Riastradh: No idea what recent implementations do.
2020-05-15T17:20:24Z jcowan: Chicken does not, Chibi does not, those I can check easily
2020-05-15T17:21:24Z gwatt: Chez uses pointer tagging, and I think pairs are basic
2020-05-15T17:21:56Z weinholt: jcowan, Loko, and Ikarus afaik
2020-05-15T17:22:15Z jcowan: and therefore Vicare
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2020-05-15T17:24:28Z weinholt: afaik Loko is the only one where car and cdr don't need to check the tag
2020-05-15T17:25:05Z gwatt: why is that?
2020-05-15T17:25:26Z jcowan: he catches the SIGSEGV
2020-05-15T17:25:28Z Riastradh: Larceny seems to have two fixnum tags (even and odd?), two immediate tags, a pair tag, a vector tag, a bytevector tag, and a procedure tag.
2020-05-15T17:25:39Z weinholt: well, it checks it, but it uses the hardware to do it. there are no instructions for it
2020-05-15T17:25:42Z Riastradh: (at least, this ancient checkout from subversion that I have, probably 12 years old or so)
2020-05-15T17:25:43Z weinholt: jcowan, SIGBUS actually :)
2020-05-15T17:25:50Z jcowan: Yes
2020-05-15T17:25:58Z jcowan: Riastradh: perhaps positive and negative
2020-05-15T17:26:05Z Riastradh: jcowan: even and odd would make more sense for low-tag
2020-05-15T17:26:23Z jcowan: True.  At least some systems have both high and low tags
2020-05-15T17:26:24Z Riastradh: 000 for even, 100 for odd; the 00 lets you use the sparc tagged arithmetic instructions to trap on non-fixnum.
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2020-05-15T17:26:35Z jcowan: though probably obsolete
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2020-05-15T17:27:22Z jcowan: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/utah/Shebs-Implementing_Primitive_Datatypes-1988.pdf
2020-05-15T17:29:27Z jcowan: pretty comprehensive up to its publication date
2020-05-15T17:35:15Z jcowan: You could have a very big high tag nowadays, excluding the highest-order bit because Solaris
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2020-05-15T17:40:47Z jcowan: I don't think there are any BiBOP implementations left, though
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2020-05-15T17:43:25Z jcowan: Guile has no pairs; asked on #racket about Racket pre-Chez but no answer yet
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2020-05-15T17:59:58Z gwatt: I'm pretty sure Chez still uses BiBOP
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2020-05-15T18:03:25Z gwatt: jcowan: https://bit.ly/364mR5c in the message, akeep says they're still using bibop
2020-05-15T18:03:43Z jcowan: ooh
2020-05-15T18:04:46Z jcowan: howevs, pair is not a BiBOP type
2020-05-15T18:05:56Z jcowan: looks like they use BiBOP types for gc control, not for dynamic typing
2020-05-15T18:08:29Z gwatt: ah, true enough
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2020-05-15T19:54:43Z dTal: What's the best way to program APL/Fortran/Numpy/Matlab style arrays in Scheme?
2020-05-15T19:55:11Z dTal: (i.e. the best way to use that paradigm, preferably backed by BLAS or LAPACK or something)
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2020-05-15T20:22:34Z hugo: Why does scheme lack a typeof procedure?
2020-05-15T20:23:49Z Riastradh: It would require a reasonable first-class formalization of what a `type' is.
2020-05-15T20:24:58Z hugo: I haven't read the repports, but aren't at last numbers, conses, booleans, symbols and null all required types?
2020-05-15T20:25:20Z aeth: In Scheme, there are no types, only type predicates. You could implement them like types in CL, e.g. (define-type positive-integer? () '(integer 0 *)) but that's not required, and I doubt any Scheme literally does things the way I said.
2020-05-15T20:25:30Z hugo: And that all forms of structures which aren't simply nested cons-cells are an extension
2020-05-15T20:26:20Z Riastradh: What should (typeof 1/2) return?  If you create a record type, what should typeof return for instances of that record type?  What should (typeof 2) and (typeof (expt 2 1000)) return?
2020-05-15T20:26:25Z hugo: aeth: Doesn't type predicate require the existance of types? Doesn't `cons?' clearly imply the existance of the cons type?
2020-05-15T20:27:08Z aeth: hugo: but the "cons type" is only "the thing that returns #t when cons? is called on it", which is why Riastradh said it lacks first-class types
2020-05-15T20:27:44Z aeth: In theory, you could just directly define predicates with define, at least for some of the type predicates.
2020-05-15T20:27:54Z hugo: Riastradh: All your numirecal examples could return 'number, or possibly their node in the number tree, with a way to query the tree. Similar for structures, where they all "inherit" from the base structure type
2020-05-15T20:28:19Z Riastradh: hugo: Which one is the right choice?
2020-05-15T20:29:02Z hugo: Riastradh: Probably nodes in the tree, since otherwise a "correct" solution would to say that any value is of the type 'type.
2020-05-15T20:29:40Z Riastradh: So what is the node in the number tree?
2020-05-15T20:29:50Z Riastradh: Is there a `fixnum' node distinct from `bignum'?
2020-05-15T20:29:58Z aeth: hugo: in fact, in portable Scheme, iirc there is no cons type, only a pair type, which should be the same thing. Well, that's easily fixable. (define (cons? object) (pair? object)) but now you've just inefficiently defined a type vs. the CL-style (define-type (cons?) 'pair?) which defines a cons? type as an alias of the pair? type and also creates the cons? predicate.
2020-05-15T20:30:07Z Riastradh: Is there anything under `number' that's not also under `complex'?
2020-05-15T20:30:56Z Riastradh: Is (typeof 1/2) supposed to be `rational', or `real', or what?
2020-05-15T20:31:06Z Riastradh: How do I create my own answers for my own record types?
2020-05-15T20:31:49Z aeth: (The main difference between my hypothetical define-type and CL's DEFTYPE is that to work with Scheme's type system, define-type would automatically create a predicate associated with the defined type, while in CL, this doesn't happen and you're normally expected to use something like TYPEP or CHECK-TYPE with your custom types.)
2020-05-15T20:32:35Z aeth: (And as a side effect, this makes the most natural name for any type under such a system one that ends in a question mark, like a predicate)
2020-05-15T20:32:54Z hugo: Seeing complex as a sub-group of numbers works well in practice. (typeof 1/2) can without problem be rational, with the reals being a superset of the rational. Your own record types would be their own type, which is a subtype of the record type.
2020-05-15T20:33:01Z hugo: I mean, python manages this fine after all
2020-05-15T20:33:51Z Riastradh: I'm not saying that you _can't_ systematize this stuff.  It's just that it hasn't been done for Scheme in any particular way that everyone agrees on.
2020-05-15T20:34:00Z aeth: This is why even in CL which has a TYPE-OF, it's more useful to use TYPEP (which would be called type? in Scheme) than TYPE-OF most of the time.
2020-05-15T20:34:25Z aeth: For a lot of things in CL, you can't really be sure which valid TYPE-OF is going to be used, especially if you start defining aliases with DEFTYPE
2020-05-15T20:34:29Z hugo: And I ask WHY it hasn't been systematized
2020-05-15T20:35:07Z aeth: hugo: I'm guessing some implementations have some major differences in their type systems and this is one of those things that can't really be made portable without upsetting some of them.
2020-05-15T20:35:43Z hugo: aeth: You might have a point with type-of being more complex.
2020-05-15T20:36:06Z Riastradh: Scheme standardization has been, from the beginning, about finding common denominators between systems that all called themselves `Scheme', and without forcing commitment to various decisions like how numbers are actually represented.
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2020-05-15T20:36:23Z hugo: Your examples with aliases could work with an explicit trees (or directed graph) of all types, with querying it being a large part of the program
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2020-05-15T20:36:58Z hugo: But portability is a good reason
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2020-05-15T20:37:57Z aeth: hugo: well, in CL (type-of 42) is (INTEGER 0 4611686018427387903) in SBCL and (INTEGER 42 42) in ECL. SBCL is, I guess, returning the most specific low-level type while ECL is returning the most specific type period (an integer in the range 42 to 42 inclusive).
2020-05-15T20:38:14Z aeth: So even in CL, what you get from TYPE-OF isn't portable, making its utility a bit dubious.
2020-05-15T20:38:30Z Riastradh: >>> type(123)
2020-05-15T20:38:30Z Riastradh: <type 'int'>
2020-05-15T20:38:30Z Riastradh: >>> type(12300000000000000000)
2020-05-15T20:38:30Z Riastradh: <type 'long'>
2020-05-15T20:38:42Z hugo: >>> type(100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000)
2020-05-15T20:38:44Z hugo: <class 'int'>
2020-05-15T20:39:00Z aeth: Riastradh: Python's not a good example here because there's only one major implementation so there's not a good opportunity for people to interpret things differently.
2020-05-15T20:39:07Z hugo: Python appears to have some portiability problems as well...
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2020-05-15T20:39:56Z hugo: aeth: (INTEGER min max) is an interesting example. Note however that both are correct, and thet SBCL just gives a weaker type
2020-05-15T20:40:43Z aeth: hugo: Yes, but note that both are giving the most specific type from their own point of view. ECL overall the most specific and SBCL the most specific actual low level representation.
2020-05-15T20:41:09Z aeth: And with a type system as complicated as CL's, there's an infinite number of ways to express numerical types that TYPE-OF could return, although most would be needlessly complicated and obfuscated
2020-05-15T20:41:26Z aeth: (since CL has and, or, and not)
2020-05-15T20:41:45Z hugo: I'm starting to see that. From those two examples I feel that they show that CL is both a high and a low level language
2020-05-15T20:42:13Z hugo: With one of the types useful for proving the correctness of your proram, while the other is good for knowning what you can use that variable for
2020-05-15T20:43:05Z aeth: And e.g. (type-of 1) is BIT in SBCL and (INTEGER 1 1) in ECL
2020-05-15T20:43:36Z aeth: CCL is the same as SBCL here, but its type of 42 is (INTEGER 0 1152921504606846975)
2020-05-15T20:43:57Z aeth: Overall, it's not really a feature in CL that would be too useful in portable Scheme.
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2020-05-15T22:20:36Z jcowan: imo you should never call type-of on anything but a struct or CLOS object
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2020-05-15T23:02:13Z pjb: jcowan: in CL, you can.
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2020-05-15T23:17:04Z jcowan: I didn't say you couldn't, I said you shouldn't.  What you get back will be technically correct, but it is likely not to be useful and certainly not portable.
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2020-05-16T02:05:42Z mdhughes: (cond [(boolean? x) 'boolean] [(number? x) 'number] ...)
2020-05-16T02:06:22Z pjb: mdhughes: unfortunately, the complete implementation of this function is implementation dependent.  Hence cl:type-of
2020-05-16T02:06:24Z mdhughes: But in practice you don't need that, maybe an (assert (number? x)) at the top of a function if you're paranoid.
2020-05-16T02:07:21Z mdhughes: pjb: I don't think so. [(record? x) (record-type-name x)] is at least portable in the same revision.
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2020-05-16T02:08:32Z aeth: type-of is usually an anti-pattern in CL
2020-05-16T02:08:44Z mdhughes: Scheme is not Common Lisp. It has much more of the YAGNI nature.
2020-05-16T02:13:17Z pjb: aeth: type-of is metaprogramming, it has nothing of an anti-pattern.
2020-05-16T02:13:50Z aeth: pjb: type-of is like eq. When you need it, you need it, but most of the time someone thinks that they need it, they don't.
2020-05-16T02:14:04Z aeth: (To be fair, Scheme does have an eq? in the language)
2020-05-16T02:14:13Z aeth: (And eq? is essentially CL:EQ)
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2020-05-16T02:32:31Z pjb: aeth: furthermore, it would be silly, for a language implemented with type tags, not to have type-of !!!
2020-05-16T02:36:08Z aeth: pjb: but it might be %type-of
2020-05-16T02:36:36Z aeth: pjb: but since Scheme doesn't specify how its types are implemented, only that they satisfy predicates, type-of isn't required portably
2020-05-16T02:50:11Z pjb: type-of is one of the things that makes lisp agreable to use.
2020-05-16T02:50:15Z pjb: even C has it!!!
2020-05-16T02:50:21Z pjb: (recently)
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2020-05-16T03:28:45Z mdhughes: What do you need it for? You're writing the code, you know what values you're passing into a function.
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2020-05-16T03:34:40Z aeth: mdhughes: It's probably useful for interactive programming, which CL practically requires but not every Scheme emphasizes.
2020-05-16T03:36:06Z mdhughes: Maybe investigating what a function returns? But usually I have docs memorized or open, and I don't play with a lot of rando-Internet modules like I would in Python.
2020-05-16T03:39:03Z pjb: mdhughes: you're wrong.  We DO NOT WANT to know the type of values passed into a function!  Because it's not functions, but generic functions.
2020-05-16T03:39:13Z mdhughes: And you can use ,d in CHICKEN csi - I don't think Chez has any inspector.
2020-05-16T03:39:47Z mdhughes: Well, good luck with adding a string and a list when you expect numbers, then.
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2020-05-16T03:51:02Z aeth: mdhughes: pjb is very anti-type... I'm actually surprised pjb is arguing for TYPE-OF here
2020-05-16T03:52:26Z mdhughes: "Strong typing is for weak minds" is my motto.
2020-05-16T03:52:50Z aeth: bah
2020-05-16T03:53:10Z aeth: I'm going to convince Riastradh to help me smuggle in a proper type system to Airship Scheme. ;-)
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2020-05-16T03:53:37Z mdhughes: I mostly started saying that to piss off "fellow" Java programmers, but then Python and Objective-C really cured me of any use for typing.
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2020-05-16T03:58:06Z aeth: mdhughes: do you program Java by loading Kawa?
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2020-05-16T04:02:23Z mdhughes: I don't touch Java at all anymore, if I can help it; I stopped doing it for work in… 2009? Told my boss to stuff it, I was gonna code iPhones.
2020-05-16T04:03:18Z mdhughes: I keep thinking I should learn enough Clojure to get paid for it sometimes, make some use of the dark arts I still know.
2020-05-16T04:05:24Z aeth: mdhughes: that is a very 2009 story.
2020-05-16T04:05:32Z aeth: I wonder what the 2020 equivalent is
2020-05-16T04:05:49Z aeth: Giving up node.js for VR? Probably not quite mainstream enough yet.
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2020-05-16T04:07:55Z mdhughes: node's not as corporate bullshit yet as Java was by 2009. Give it 5 years. Maybe giving up Rails for Elixir.
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2020-05-16T13:55:35Z mdhughes: https://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html "Lambda the Ultimate Kitchen Utensil."
2020-05-16T13:56:39Z LeoNerd: I've sometimes pictured a Lovecraftian horror creature called "Lambda the Ultimate"
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2020-05-16T14:06:11Z mdhughes: ((((0 0))))
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2020-05-16T14:08:05Z DKordic: [ROFL] ""late-night infomercials"".
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2020-05-16T14:10:23Z mdhughes: "In spite of its lack of popularity, LISP (now "Lisp" or sometimes "Arc") remains an influential language in "key algorithmic techniques such as recursion and condescension"[2]."
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2020-05-16T14:11:19Z mdhughes: And Perl is just 100%.
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2020-05-16T14:30:57Z wasamasa: can't spell hyperlinked without perl
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2020-05-16T14:48:54Z mdhughes: Also improperly, and viperlike.
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2020-05-16T22:29:00Z kolyad: I'm having a problem with a recursive macro, and I'm sure I must be doing something stupid
2020-05-16T22:29:07Z kolyad: https://paste.debian.net/1147219
2020-05-16T22:29:16Z kolyad: It appears to expand indefinitely
2020-05-16T22:29:28Z kolyad: Suggestions?
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2020-05-16T23:48:31Z edw: kolyad: You need to set up two rules, one to match an empty list of matches, one to match one or more matches. I have no idea if this is what you were trying to capture with your macro, but the following works "properly:" https://gist.github.com/edw/1c663281adb06769b1d7b68971253f00
2020-05-16T23:49:52Z edw: You might just be writing a toy macro to get the hang of syntax-rules, and if that's the case, no problem, but you should not be creating macros to do things like that. A function would more than suffice.
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2020-05-16T23:50:50Z kolyad: Ok thanks. Just trying to get the hang of things.
2020-05-16T23:55:23Z edw: If you want to get the hang of it, implementing your own simple version of COND (call it MY-COND maybe) might be useful. Or your own version of OR.
2020-05-16T23:56:14Z edw: Because in that case  you're creating something that is within the wheelhouse of macros.
2020-05-16T23:57:30Z edw: kolyad: See above. (Forgot to mention your name.)
2020-05-16T23:58:40Z kolyad: sure, I will. appreciate it
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2020-05-17T09:04:35Z amirouche: yop
2020-05-17T09:05:02Z amirouche: good news, I got chibi scheme's javascript `js` target working again
2020-05-17T09:05:48Z amirouche: it is tiny fix: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/pull/641/files
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2020-05-17T09:18:09Z wasamasa: clap your hands
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2020-05-17T09:53:27Z rgherdt: nice!
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2020-05-17T16:07:15Z edw: I'm installing Chibi to my home directory (via `make PREFIX=$HOME/.local && make PREFIX=$HOME/.local install`) and I keep getting the error `ERROR: couldn't find file in module path: "init-7.scm"`. Anyone have thoughts?
2020-05-17T16:09:55Z zaifir: edw: Set LD_LIBRARY_PATH.  I had the same issue.
2020-05-17T16:10:23Z Riastradh: LD_LIBRARY_PATH should never be necessary; it's a debugging hack.
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2020-05-17T16:13:19Z zaifir: OK, I had to mess with it on Android, which was a hacky endeavor all around.
2020-05-17T16:13:38Z Riastradh: It looks like chibi correctly sets the rpath here on NetBSD, but macOS doesn't do rpaths the same way.
2020-05-17T16:15:23Z edw: zafir: That didn't work, same issue. What I typically do is build Chibi and then symlink the binary to somewhere in my PATH.
2020-05-17T16:15:41Z Riastradh: (on macOS the equivalent is called DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH, but still -- relying on it for normal operation is wrong)
2020-05-17T16:18:15Z Riastradh: edw: You might try adding something like `RLDFLAGS=-rpath @executable_path/../lib' to Makefile.detect in the macOS section.
2020-05-17T16:18:42Z Riastradh: (not quite right since in principle LIBDIR could be something other than $(BINDIR)/../lib but it will serve to test)
2020-05-17T16:18:43Z zaifir: edw: Oh wait, you're getting that error when making?  Sorry, I didn't read that carefully.
2020-05-17T16:18:58Z Riastradh: ...oh, also, this is not likely to affect loading init-7.scm.
2020-05-17T16:19:13Z Riastradh: (missed that part of the message, just perked up at LD_LIBRARY_PATH)
2020-05-17T16:19:30Z zaifir drinks more coffee.
2020-05-17T16:19:53Z Riastradh: edw: At what point do you get that error?
2020-05-17T16:20:36Z edw: zaifir: No, I'm getting it on execution. and per Riastradh's comments above, I forgot about the alternate env var naming on OSX.
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2020-05-17T16:22:19Z Riastradh: edw: Can you ktrace it?
2020-05-17T16:22:28Z Riastradh: ...or dtruss it, or whatever macOS does these days.
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2020-05-17T16:25:23Z edw: Riastradh: I probably should be I'm already yak shaving squared; I was just trying to check this damn STM thingie I was writing.
2020-05-17T16:26:53Z edw: There's a Homebrew port that successfully installs with `--HEAD`; I'm going to see what they do, since they're not putting the build products directly in /usr/local.
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2020-05-17T16:27:09Z Riastradh: What is `--HEAD'?
2020-05-17T16:28:28Z wasamasa: the MELPA equivalent
2020-05-17T16:28:30Z edw: Many recipes take that command line option (Emacs, notably) and build the git origin/master or equiv of the repository,
2020-05-17T16:28:48Z edw: Yeah, like what wasamasa said.
2020-05-17T16:28:57Z wasamasa: do not build from release tarball, do not collect money, go straight to jail
2020-05-17T16:29:26Z Riastradh: It looks to me like it does what you did.
2020-05-17T16:29:31Z Riastradh: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/blob/master/Formula/chibi-scheme.rb
2020-05-17T16:29:44Z Riastradh: edw: Can you try running it in `env -i'?
2020-05-17T16:29:45Z edw: We're sadly living in a world where the answer is increasingly "just `docker run ...` it!"
2020-05-17T16:30:15Z edw: Riastradh: Which it? The Homebrew one or the build that I just threw away?
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2020-05-17T16:30:27Z Riastradh: edw: the build you just threw away which reproduces the problem
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2020-05-17T16:37:26Z edw: Uh, no, but I'm looking at the Homebrew build and I'm wondering why the Homebrew build directory looks different from mine. I'm wondering if Homebrew is using gmake...
2020-05-17T16:37:33Z Riastradh: yes
2020-05-17T16:37:36Z Riastradh: you need gmake
2020-05-17T16:37:49Z Riastradh: (at least, that's what I recall from the last time I built chibi)
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2020-05-17T16:40:35Z edw: The vars line mentioning gmake-mode in the Makefile was a hint...
2020-05-17T16:44:34Z edw: Yeah, OK, I'm off the homebrew version and on my gmake-built one. Thanks for tips, folks.
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2020-05-17T17:11:54Z edw: Style question: R7RS libraries, should they be singular or plural? box vs boxes, set vs sets, and so forth.
2020-05-17T17:13:11Z Riastradh: genitive singular plural as in Russian
2020-05-17T17:13:45Z edw: Love te that Riastradh clarity. Thank you!
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2020-05-17T17:21:26Z zaifir: Singular sometimes...  c.f. Tangerine edition, where (rnrs bytevectors) became (scheme bytevector).
2020-05-17T17:21:48Z zaifir: Definitely singular.
2020-05-17T17:22:18Z zaifir: I see no plurals here: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/RedEdition.md
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2020-05-17T17:27:45Z edw: I'm a fan of singlular as well. In relational modeling it's easy to spot the clowns: They create SQL tables with names like "People" and "Addresses."
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2020-05-17T17:31:53Z zaifir: Then again, a set of addresses is more comprehensibly called "addresses" than "address".
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2020-05-17T17:32:14Z zaifir: le'i judri
2020-05-17T17:33:21Z edw: zaifir: Or, as I like to call them, `xs`.
2020-05-17T17:33:45Z zaifir: edw: Hah.
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2020-05-17T17:37:12Z edw: zaifir: I've been on these humiliating coder interviews and they want me to write code while they tele-stare at my  in languages for mediocrities, and the most irritating part is feeling like I need to write stuff like `for address in person.addresses: ...` and not `(for [a (:as p)] ...)`.
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2020-05-17T17:44:23Z rain1: getting told off for using a in code review
2020-05-17T17:45:29Z edw: As opposed to x, rain1?
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2020-05-17T17:59:33Z zaifir: edw: That sounds infuriating.
2020-05-17T18:00:59Z zaifir: After first reading K&R, I thought there must be some weird initiation that professional programmers go through in which they replace all their "i"s with "index".
2020-05-17T18:01:41Z wasamasa: lol
2020-05-17T18:02:14Z edw: Meh, You mean vice versa? I'm flipping through my second edition and it's "i"s as far as the eye can see.
2020-05-17T18:02:29Z zaifir: I mean, the K&R code seemed so simple compared to the stuff I was seeing.
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2020-05-17T18:02:39Z zaifir: Er, s/simple/terse/
2020-05-17T18:03:09Z edw: That's the thing, the terseness assists in comprehension. You can take it all in.
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2020-05-17T18:03:42Z edw: That "meh," btw, was to the fucked up state of the tech industry. I'm getting a remote gig and then leaving NYC for Alaska.
2020-05-17T18:04:21Z zaifir: I agree with Pike when he calls naming "a delicate issue requiring careful thought and taste".
2020-05-17T18:04:45Z zaifir: edw: Wow, that's a big shift.
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2020-05-17T18:07:02Z zaifir: Rob Pike: "Length is not a virtue in a name; clarity of expression is.  A global variable rarely used may deserve a long name, maxphysaddr say.  An array index used on every line of a loop needn't be named any more elaborately than i."
2020-05-17T18:07:09Z zaifir: (http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/pikestyle)
2020-05-17T18:07:13Z edw: Post-corona NYC isn't going to be NYC, zaifir. What's the point then?
2020-05-17T18:07:44Z zaifir: edw: Maybe it'll be more like the NYC I remember... I'm hoping the "playground of the rich" crumbles amidst all this.
2020-05-17T18:07:57Z edw: The Practice of Programming is the book -- along with SICP -- that brought me back to programming after I'd gotten sick of it back in '99.
2020-05-17T18:08:46Z edw: zaifir: Yes, please. I'd stay if we could get Taking of Pelham 123 New York or Escape from New York New York. I reserve the right to return.
2020-05-17T18:09:13Z zaifir laughs.
2020-05-17T18:09:54Z zaifir: Escape From New York was looking somewhat more plausible recently.
2020-05-17T18:10:07Z edw: Are you here? In NYC?
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2020-05-17T18:11:29Z zaifir: edw: Nope, just from there.  In Rochester atm.
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2020-05-17T18:13:05Z zaifir: The Practice Of Programming is a good book, indeed.  Strange that it's not better known.
2020-05-17T18:13:15Z edw: Ah. Any word on the border situation? I'd prefer to ride to AK through Canada because passage on the Marine Highway ferries isn't guaranteed (though motorcycle space is less contended-for).
2020-05-17T18:14:24Z zaifir: My guess, er, web search is as good as yours.  I haven't gone over recently.
2020-05-17T18:14:40Z edw: zaifir: And it's a book that's totally sympatico with SICP design thinking (despite being a NJ, not MIT school affair) as well as the mid-Aughties Ruby-fuelled hipster obsession with DSLs, brah!
2020-05-17T18:16:05Z zaifir: Bumper sticker slogan: Less DSL, more DSSSL!
2020-05-17T18:16:47Z edw: That's sure to cause a ruckus at the stop light.
2020-05-17T18:18:58Z edw: I'm trying to keep my search history clean. (Yes, writing that in a logged IRC channel.) I'm contemplating less formal means of entering Canada in or around North Dakota.
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2020-05-17T18:28:01Z edw: $750K fine for violating the Canadian travel ban. It's metric dollars, but still, maybe I take my chances with the ferry.
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2020-05-17T18:42:43Z vyzo: PSA: Gerbil v0.16 is out!
2020-05-17T18:42:46Z vyzo: https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/releases/tag/v0.16
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2020-05-17T18:44:00Z zaifir: edw: TIL "metric dollars".
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2020-05-17T18:44:25Z zaifir: $750 CA = five golden toques
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2020-05-17T19:33:56Z mdhughes: zaifir: The reason for the one-letter variables i, j, etc. is in FORTRAN, by default variables starting A-N are INTEGER, O-Z are REAL; so they loop on I,J,etc, compute in X,Y,etc. Which is convenient for mathematicians, but obscure to programmers & mere humans.
2020-05-17T19:38:36Z zaifir: Well, mathematical convention going back a few centuries is probably the reason for one-letter names in programming.
2020-05-17T19:38:41Z zaifir: But that makes sense.
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2020-05-17T19:39:50Z zaifir: One- or two-letter names for everything can lead to very abstruse code, but so can the other extreme.
2020-05-17T19:43:59Z zaifir: It's probably the one of the most contentious style issues of all time.  I wonder if anyone's read someone else's program and thought "these names are exactly right".
2020-05-17T19:44:16Z zaifir: s/the one/one
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2020-05-17T19:45:59Z aeth: opqrstuvwxyz for real seems pretty weird
2020-05-17T19:46:13Z aeth: p, q, and r should be booleans! :-p
2020-05-17T19:49:14Z Riastradh: IF r appears in the sequence p,q,r, THEN it should be boolean; IF, however, it appears on its own, or heads the sequence r,s,t, then it should be real.
2020-05-17T19:49:28Z aeth: right
2020-05-17T19:49:33Z aeth: I forgot that r is often used for radius
2020-05-17T19:50:05Z aeth: and o should just be an alias to 0 because no mathematician uses o afaik
2020-05-17T19:50:31Z aeth: I guess the issue is which 0
2020-05-17T19:50:34Z zaifir: I sort of expect p, q, and r to be boolean-valued functions.
2020-05-17T19:50:59Z zaifir: Or relations...
2020-05-17T19:51:30Z zaifir: Language context is everything.
2020-05-17T19:53:36Z Riastradh: o(n)
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2020-05-17T19:54:44Z aeth: Riastradh: oh, true, I hope it's case insensitive because o and O both exist.
2020-05-17T19:54:52Z aeth: Although, to be fair, I said no *mathematician*
2020-05-17T19:55:00Z aeth: I have no idea what those computer scientists were thinking! :-p
2020-05-17T19:55:19Z aeth: I guess they were thinking that the letter was available, just sitting there, waiting
2020-05-17T19:57:36Z zaifir: Weirdly, that just reminded me of the time systemd decided "debug" was a "generic term" and snarfed it from the kernel command line, causing untold misery...
2020-05-17T19:58:04Z Riastradh: aeth: o(n) came from mathematics long before `computer' ceased to be the name of an occupation
2020-05-17T19:59:34Z mdhughes: FORTRAN (66|77) is case-insensitive, as long as you only use UPPERCASE.
2020-05-17T20:00:53Z aeth: Riastradh: sorry, my ":-p" wasn't clear enough
2020-05-17T20:00:58Z zaifir: HEAVY RUNES only.
2020-05-17T20:01:07Z aeth: Riastradh: I was joking.
2020-05-17T20:01:21Z aeth: Jokes are usually factually incorrect to some degree, or at least misleading.
2020-05-17T20:01:24Z mdhughes: I'd probably smack anyone who used [oOl] as a variable name, but the others in lowercase are pretty readable. Comment on the declaration if necessary, then your code can be short.
2020-05-17T20:02:00Z aeth: mdhughes: l? Any good programmer font distinguishes l pretty well. It's pretty much *the* test.
2020-05-17T20:02:41Z aeth: mdhughes: arguably, l makes sense in Scheme as a variable name for a list in a short-lived lambda
2020-05-17T20:02:42Z mdhughes: O and 0 are distinct in the ones I use, too, but they're still an extra "which is that?" second each time you read it.
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2020-05-17T20:03:11Z aeth: I don't think (lambda (l) (car l)) would confuse anyone other than the uselessness of that particular example
2020-05-17T20:03:13Z mdhughes: All my Scheme lists are `ls` or `coll`, unless they're something longer.
2020-05-17T20:04:10Z mdhughes: You also get code pasted into pasties, or chat, or whatever, and can't control the font. Best to stick to distinct glyphs.
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2020-05-18T03:14:24Z zaifir: I think Scheme needs a bytevector lib a la SRFI 43.  Folds and unfolds are sorely missed.
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2020-05-18T15:22:54Z edw: Is there a simple unit testing srfi up for inclusion in r7rs red?
2020-05-18T15:25:15Z wasamasa: what does unit testing have to do with data structures
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2020-05-18T15:26:08Z wasamasa: have you looked at srfi-64?
2020-05-18T15:26:27Z wasamasa: it's not perfect, but looks reasonable
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2020-05-18T15:52:53Z edw: wasamasa: Well, you might want to be able to veryify that your data structures work properly...
2020-05-18T15:53:07Z Riastradh: ...that's what Coq is for!
2020-05-18T15:53:14Z wasamasa: lol
2020-05-18T15:53:48Z edw: For when it works in practice but you need to know it works in theory.
2020-05-18T15:54:04Z Riastradh: what is `practice' it sounds inconvenient
2020-05-18T15:54:20Z LeoNerd: It's a thing doctors do
2020-05-18T15:54:34Z LeoNerd: Sounds very messy, needs gloves... eugh
2020-05-18T15:54:35Z Riastradh: sounds gooey
2020-05-18T15:55:00Z edw: I'll check out srfi-64. The only Chibi-specific dependency in my atomic box implementation is (chibi test).
2020-05-18T15:56:24Z Riastradh: atomic?
2020-05-18T15:56:58Z edw: You know, nuke-euler-powered.
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2020-05-18T15:57:54Z edw: Clojure-like STM atoms.
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2020-05-18T16:06:12Z mdhughes: Also I had to write a proper test-runner to use SRFI-64: https://mdhughes.tech/2020/02/27/scheme-test-unit/
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2020-05-18T16:11:41Z wasamasa: too bad one can't amend SRFIs
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2020-05-18T16:21:31Z lloda: ^ maybe they should be around for a few years before being ratified
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2020-05-18T16:33:10Z wasamasa: that's hard to do if hardly anyone uses them
2020-05-18T16:33:36Z wasamasa: the above blog post happened because more than a decade later, mdhughes tried it and discovered it's not optimal
2020-05-18T16:35:15Z mdhughes: Right. I do try to look at new SRFIs now, but I'm not on the mailing lists, those are out of sight, in the app I hate to open most.
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2020-05-18T16:38:05Z zaifir: SRFI 78 works well for testing.
2020-05-18T16:38:23Z mdhughes: Speaking of, https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-196/srfi-196.html has an error? "to specify the binary fractions from 1/2 to 1/1024, (range numeric-comparator 1 10 (lambda (i) (expt 2 i))) will do the job"
2020-05-18T16:38:33Z mdhughes: I should think that's (expt 2 (- i))
2020-05-18T16:40:20Z zaifir: Actually, the indexer needs to take two arguments, so that's something else that needs fixing.
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2020-05-18T16:40:51Z wasamasa: huh, why are there two for testing
2020-05-18T16:42:02Z zaifir: I think the idea is that 78 is lighter.  It's a very different library, too.  I imagine there's room for a number of test library SRFIs.
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2020-05-18T16:46:29Z zaifir: Yeah, the character range example in the 196 rationale has the same unary indexer issue.  I'll send a patch to the ml.
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2020-05-18T17:03:34Z zaifir: Does anyone know where `numeric-comparator` comes from?
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2020-05-18T17:04:37Z zaifir: SRFI 162 has `real-comparator'.  Maybe that's what jcowan meant.
2020-05-18T17:04:56Z jcowan: yes, of course
2020-05-18T17:05:22Z zaifir: Aha. Thanks.
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2020-05-18T17:25:11Z jcowan: WG1 voted to use singular nouns in (scheme ...) libs, on the other hand R6RS used plural nouns when possible (not in r7rs arithmetic ...) or (r7rs sorting))
2020-05-18T17:25:44Z jcowan: eventually the chibi/chicken test lib should be a SRFI too, though I don't know if any other Schemes come with it built in.
2020-05-18T17:26:00Z jcowan: it's close to a subset of 64.
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2020-05-18T17:33:10Z mdhughes: It's never the test procedures that are the problem, assert is good enough to build up a full toolset from, it's the runner. Chicken's runner is OK, but lacks a lot of useful options.
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2020-05-18T17:43:52Z jcowan: It's meant to be minimal.
2020-05-18T17:44:41Z amirouche: maybe I made a mistake, anyway, I created my own test runner that rely on the module system
2020-05-18T17:49:19Z jcowan: Assert is not quite enough:  I generally use assertions, tests for equality (which can be manually transformed into assertions but can be printed better if they are not), something to subgroup tests (preferably recursively), and an exit function that returns 0 to the OS if all tests pass, non-0 if they don't.
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2020-05-18T17:50:29Z edw:  Thanks for the comments re: naming and testing, jcowan et al.
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2020-05-18T17:52:13Z jcowan: the output pattern "test <foo> on <bar>, expected <baz>, got <@*#$>" is the most useful for me.
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2020-05-18T17:53:07Z jcowan: Chibi/Chicken has the nice feature that if both arguments are inexact it uses fuzzy equality, and that the default equality predicate is a parameter.
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2020-05-18T17:56:28Z Riastradh: What is `fuzzy', exactly?
2020-05-18T17:56:47Z Riastradh: How do they know what relative error you expect for the operation?
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2020-05-18T17:59:04Z amirouche: re new test runner: requires me to rework all the tests from srfis, which very dull work (and I did it at least twice).
2020-05-18T18:00:03Z amirouche: All ICFP 2020 will be virtual, including scheme workshop, see https://icfp20.sigplan.org/home/scheme-2020#Call-for-Papers
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2020-05-18T18:30:39Z jcowan: Riastradh: It too is a parameter, I don't know the default offhand.
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2020-05-18T18:48:49Z zaifir: jcowan: Oh, the 0/nonzero exit status for a test progrm is a really good idea.  Shame on me for forgetting the conventions of my *nix roots.
2020-05-18T18:48:58Z zaifir: program, even.
2020-05-18T18:49:24Z jcowan: That's chibi/chicken also
2020-05-18T18:49:35Z jcowan: (they are almost exactly the same code)
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2020-05-18T18:50:22Z Riastradh:   (cond
2020-05-18T18:50:22Z Riastradh:    ((> (abs a) (abs b))
2020-05-18T18:50:23Z Riastradh:     (approx-equal? b a epsilon))
2020-05-18T18:50:23Z Riastradh:    ((zero? a)
2020-05-18T18:50:23Z Riastradh:     (< (abs b) epsilon))
2020-05-18T18:50:25Z Riastradh:    (else
2020-05-18T18:50:27Z Riastradh:     (< (abs (/ (- a b) b)) epsilon))))
2020-05-18T18:50:50Z Riastradh: Huh.  That's a curious relation to pick, when one input is already designated `expected' and the other is designated `actual'.
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2020-05-18T23:33:41Z theseb: (define (f x) x)  (print (f 'k)) <--- is the correct terminology to say "value" of x is 'k but x "evaluates" to k?
2020-05-18T23:34:00Z theseb: so "value" and "what x evaluates to" are NOT the same thing?
2020-05-18T23:35:48Z zaifir: 'k is just the symbol k.
2020-05-18T23:36:41Z theseb: zaifir: well if we're being pedantic isn't 'k the invocation of quote on the symbol k?
2020-05-18T23:36:50Z zaifir: We'd expect "the value of x" and "what x evaluates to" to be equivalent in a world with sane semantics for English.
2020-05-18T23:37:20Z theseb: zaifir: yes but one is 'k and the other is k (w/o ')
2020-05-18T23:37:27Z zaifir: quote is syntax.
2020-05-18T23:37:27Z theseb: so they are in a sense different yes?
2020-05-18T23:37:32Z zaifir: No.
2020-05-18T23:37:49Z theseb: zaifir: what do you mean when you say '
2020-05-18T23:37:54Z theseb: quote is syntax'
2020-05-18T23:37:55Z theseb: ?
2020-05-18T23:38:11Z zaifir: You could use (string->symbol "k") and get the same symbol that (quote k) gives you.
2020-05-18T23:38:47Z theseb: zaifir: does symbol mean same things as variable?
2020-05-18T23:39:04Z zaifir: '/quote is just a convenient way to write symbols.
2020-05-18T23:39:17Z zaifir: No.
2020-05-18T23:39:35Z theseb: how would you define symbol and variable?
2020-05-18T23:39:39Z theseb: if i may ask?
2020-05-18T23:39:40Z zaifir: (a convenient way to write symbols, lists, etc.)
2020-05-18T23:40:31Z zaifir: A symbol is a Scheme object that satisfies `symbol?'.
2020-05-18T23:41:04Z theseb: aren't symbols and variables basically "containers for values"?
2020-05-18T23:41:18Z theseb: intuitively speaking?
2020-05-18T23:41:23Z theseb: i do like your precise def
2020-05-18T23:41:29Z theseb: too
2020-05-18T23:43:11Z zaifir: No, they aren't.  Because of how Scheme works, evaluating some-symbol treats it as a name bound to some value.
2020-05-18T23:43:26Z zaifir: Whereas 'some-symbol is just the symbol some-symbol.
2020-05-18T23:43:46Z zaifir: Symbols aren't innately names for other things.  That's just how they're often used.
2020-05-18T23:46:25Z zaifir: It's interesting that there are three definitions of "variable" from mathematics/computer science here, all with important differences in meaning: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/variable#Noun
2020-05-18T23:46:33Z theseb: zaifir: wow...are you a teacher? you know this stuff pretty well
2020-05-18T23:46:42Z zaifir: -_-
2020-05-18T23:47:54Z theseb: you have to admit your response above just now was pretty hardcore
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2020-05-18T23:48:32Z theseb: on subtle differences going on here
2020-05-18T23:48:58Z zaifir: What, "a symbol satisfies `symbol?'" :D
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2020-05-18T23:49:17Z zaifir: OK, for a definition that matters and is a bit less useless...
2020-05-18T23:49:38Z theseb: it is frustrating that something as basic as a variable is so subtle
2020-05-18T23:49:51Z zaifir: R7RS 6.5: "Symbols are objects whose usefulness rests on the fact that two symbols are identical (in the sense of eqv?) if and only if their names are spelled the same way. For instance, they can be used the way enumerated values are used in other languages."
2020-05-18T23:51:17Z theseb: so if x=3 and y=3 then x and y are "equal" but not identical
2020-05-18T23:51:28Z theseb: yikes...yet another subtle word..."identical"
2020-05-18T23:51:36Z zaifir: It depends on your notion of identity.
2020-05-18T23:52:06Z zaifir: rudybot: (let ((x 3)) ((y 3)) (eqv? x y))
2020-05-18T23:52:13Z theseb: i like the def in your wiktionary page for var... ) A named memory location in which a program can store intermediate results and from which it can read them.
2020-05-18T23:52:13Z rudybot: zaifir: error: y: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2020-05-18T23:52:19Z zaifir: rudybot: eval (let ((x 3)) ((y 3)) (eqv? x y))
2020-05-18T23:52:20Z rudybot: zaifir: error: y: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2020-05-18T23:52:36Z zaifir: rudybot is helpful as always.
2020-05-18T23:54:10Z zaifir: Anyway, in the sense of eqv?, if x = 3 and y = 3, they are equivalent.
2020-05-18T23:54:38Z zaifir: eq? is allowed to disagree.
2020-05-18T23:56:16Z theseb: ok
2020-05-18T23:56:17Z theseb: ;)
2020-05-18T23:56:28Z theseb: thanks for your help
2020-05-18T23:57:02Z zaifir: theseb: You're welcome.  I hope some of that was useful to you.
2020-05-18T23:58:16Z zaifir: The Little Schemer and Gödel, Escher, Bach are good reads on the subject of quotation.
2020-05-18T23:58:34Z zaifir: And SICP, of course.
2020-05-19T00:04:18Z theseb: yup..got in my mind right now ;)
2020-05-19T00:04:26Z theseb: and GEB is 2 feet away
2020-05-19T00:04:58Z zaifir: That's a good place for it to be. :)
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2020-05-19T00:05:55Z jcowan: for me it's ever closer, right on my hard disk (shhh)
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2020-05-19T02:50:58Z lockywolf__: GEB is a Gemato-Encephalic Barrie. It's nice to have it in your head.
2020-05-19T02:51:05Z lockywolf__: *barrier
2020-05-19T02:52:36Z lockywolf__: Is it very wrong to say that a "symbol" is essentially an lvalue.
2020-05-19T02:58:00Z aeth: my favorite quotation is `
2020-05-19T02:58:13Z aeth: like, sure, you can quote something, but can you unquote in the middle of your quote?
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2020-05-19T03:11:33Z lockywolf__: I use it my everyday speach all the time.
2020-05-19T03:11:35Z lockywolf__: *speech
2020-05-19T03:12:18Z lockywolf__: It allows for arbitrary intermixing of facts and opinions. Handy.
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2020-05-19T03:17:37Z lockywolf__: Scheme-unrelated, but I can't help ranting about the fact that people are more likely to write their own (repetitive) stuff instead of reading other people's stuff and building upon.
2020-05-19T03:17:51Z lockywolf__: I have found this: http://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/bibnet/
2020-05-19T03:18:07Z lockywolf__: And I'm overwhelmed
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2020-05-19T03:31:51Z zaifir: Understanding programs is hard.
2020-05-19T03:31:59Z zaifir: It's easier to hack up a new one.
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2020-05-19T04:14:27Z mdhughes: I think people are confused by symbols because you can't interact with words/variable names directly in most languages.
2020-05-19T04:16:02Z mdhughes: A symbol is just a word, a unique string. When you evaluate it in an environment, it might resolve to some other value.
2020-05-19T04:21:04Z lockywolf__: That is a very post-modern thing to say.
2020-05-19T04:21:29Z mdhughes: I don't think so, it's purely technical.
2020-05-19T04:22:46Z mdhughes: If you get far enough in SICP, you'll write your own evaluator, but until then you just have to accept that the machine takes symbols in, other values out.
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2020-05-19T04:48:54Z zaifir: Symbols aren't super interesting in themselves.  It's the way they're used in Scheme syntax that's interesting.
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2020-05-19T04:50:26Z zaifir: s/in Scheme syntax/in writing Scheme/
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2020-05-19T12:14:04Z jcowan: lockywolf_: Symbols are not lvalues.  A symbol that appears in a define or a let (or variant) *names* an lvalue, if you like.  BUt it's better to talk about locations instead.
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2020-05-19T13:36:29Z wasamasa: https://textboard.org/
2020-05-19T13:48:30Z C-Keen: I don't get this board culture at all
2020-05-19T13:48:41Z wasamasa: imagine a bunch of edgy 13-year-olds
2020-05-19T13:48:58Z wasamasa: imagine some of them never growing up
2020-05-19T13:49:05Z rain1: what board
2020-05-19T13:50:19Z wasamasa: > A preliminary study done by... me in March 2005 found that there was no noticeable difference between 2channel and forums.gentoo.org in terms of useful posts, off-topic posts, and nonsense in a long thread about technical issues.
2020-05-19T13:50:49Z wasamasa: I find that hard to believe, but eh
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2020-05-19T13:55:31Z wasamasa: I found SICP fanfic there
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2020-05-19T13:58:10Z C-Keen: scip fanfic?!
2020-05-19T13:58:28Z wasamasa: the yuri kind
2020-05-19T13:59:19Z edw: C-Keen, don't sweat it, I've been hangout here since 2005 or earlier, and when I pop in and ask a quesiton, I still get imperious sophmores treating me like a wet-behind-the-ears moron. (I may be a moron, though not wet behind the ears.)
2020-05-19T14:00:49Z edw: Oh, you're referring to textboard.org. Yeah, as a former '80s BBSer/miscreant it's a mystery to me as well.
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2020-05-19T14:04:04Z edw: There was recently a Hack News post containing hand-wringing about the future of Emacs. Basically, maybe it should stop being Emacs so that it could be more popular and therefore survive. If you were using Emacs in the '90s (or before) it's difficult to see the current day as anything but a new golden age of Emacs progress.
2020-05-19T14:04:22Z wasamasa: one of my blog posts made it to "Hack News": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23217094
2020-05-19T14:04:43Z wasamasa: most mysteriously r/emacs hasn't noticed it yet
2020-05-19T14:06:32Z edw: How many armchair geniuses have made inane, smarter-than-thou comments thus far?
2020-05-19T14:06:41Z wasamasa: it's bearable so far
2020-05-19T14:06:46Z C-Keen: edw: oh well the other boards aren't better either I guess
2020-05-19T14:06:58Z wasamasa: the only thing that hurts is my lack of optimism for guile
2020-05-19T14:07:10Z C-Keen: hrhr
2020-05-19T14:07:41Z edw: This is not a board, btw, C-Keen.
2020-05-19T14:07:47Z wasamasa: it would be wonderful if someone could complain why that test rig is so slow, especially with guile 3
2020-05-19T14:07:55Z wasamasa: I thought it's supposed to be an improvement
2020-05-19T14:08:13Z mdhughes: A lot of non-anon forums are just the same 10 people circle-jerking for 1000s of posts each, and then dumping on n00bs. Anon chans at least don't let you see stats so you have to treat everyone equally (kinda bad).
2020-05-19T14:08:28Z C-Keen: edw: so I may have used the wrong vocabulary, what's a board then?
2020-05-19T14:09:45Z edw: This is an IRC channel. Also, I'd say a board in the most generic sense is more asynchronous, if the real-world analogue is at all applicable.
2020-05-19T14:10:48Z wasamasa: explain even
2020-05-19T14:10:56Z edw: mdhughes: Totally. That was the BBS scene back in the '80s. You wanted to start your own BBS and collected exclusive warez so you could be at the head of the ouroboros.
2020-05-19T14:11:30Z edw: This keyboard is alien to me and induces not typos but usage errors. Very odd.
2020-05-19T14:12:09Z edw: wasamasa: moi?
2020-05-19T14:12:16Z wasamasa: I mean my own post
2020-05-19T14:12:27Z edw: Oh, the slow testing.
2020-05-19T14:12:37Z wasamasa: there's fboundp/boundp/funcall
2020-05-19T14:13:14Z wasamasa: the repl seems to handle a synthetic test just fine
2020-05-19T14:14:05Z wasamasa: I've looked at the namespace implementation and yes, it looks terrible
2020-05-19T14:14:29Z wasamasa: but so do language implementations in non-lowlevel languages look to me every time
2020-05-19T14:14:50Z edw: The goal of the emacs-on-guile project is what exactly? To ditch the C core of Emacs?
2020-05-19T14:15:25Z wasamasa: no, to replace the eval implementation with guile
2020-05-19T14:15:39Z wasamasa: so that instead of having a bespoke lisp interpreter, you'd have a guile vm instead
2020-05-19T14:16:24Z wasamasa: which would give you other benefits such as support for bignums, proper lexical binding and TCO for free
2020-05-19T14:16:34Z edw: To what end? Better performance? Multicore support? (Does Guile do multicore?)
2020-05-19T14:16:39Z wasamasa: but also it would allow you accessing other languages on top of guile, like scheme
2020-05-19T14:16:39Z edw: Ah, yes those too.
2020-05-19T14:16:45Z wasamasa: and its standard library
2020-05-19T14:17:01Z wasamasa: which has more interesting concurrency constructs available
2020-05-19T14:17:23Z wasamasa: here's something from the guile maintainer: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-04/msg00665.html
2020-05-19T14:17:36Z wasamasa: there's a theoretical speed increase
2020-05-19T14:17:47Z wasamasa: theoretic because so far neither elisp nor guile have been known to be speed demons
2020-05-19T14:18:01Z edw: So why hasn't Edwin on Guile emerged?
2020-05-19T14:18:13Z wasamasa: this could change on the emacs side with the AOT compiler and on the guile side with their JIT/AOT efforts
2020-05-19T14:19:02Z edw: I'm all for because-it's-there adventures but it seems like the result would be a mudball^2.
2020-05-19T14:19:13Z wasamasa: on emacs-devel few people were interested enough to support the effort, most notably RMS (I suspect it's a redemption thing for him)
2020-05-19T14:19:49Z edw: RMS was supportive or not? I thought it was his dream.
2020-05-19T14:19:54Z wasamasa: he is
2020-05-19T14:19:57Z edw: Ah OK.
2020-05-19T14:20:03Z wasamasa: plenty others are skeptical that the effort is worth it, that guile is the right language to grow towards and that guile's ecosystem can shoulder emacs
2020-05-19T14:21:00Z C-Keen: edw: Oh I am aware of IRC channels, I have been specifically talking about the link wasamasa pasted and (image) board culture as a side note
2020-05-19T14:21:36Z edw: Ah, OK, see, I'm doing to you what the 19 year olds do to me. My apologies.
2020-05-19T14:25:00Z wasamasa: anyway, the funcall doesn't seem to be the culprit
2020-05-19T14:25:09Z C-Keen: edw: heh, no worries
2020-05-19T14:33:04Z wasamasa: why does it take two seconds to test for 20 missing functions and variables :<
2020-05-19T14:33:38Z wasamasa: the synthetic benchmark got optimized away, the more realistic one didn't
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2020-05-19T14:35:36Z dTal: It'd be wonderful if Emacs were rewritten in QT
2020-05-19T14:35:46Z wasamasa: gtk is the likelier choice
2020-05-19T14:36:07Z dTal: But gtk has a yucky file chooser
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2020-05-19T14:36:16Z wasamasa: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg01641.html
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2020-05-19T14:36:20Z dTal: and is generally technically inferior
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2020-05-19T14:39:11Z wasamasa: wow, I got a core dump out of guile
2020-05-19T14:39:20Z wasamasa: maybe it's the memory management?
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2020-05-19T15:29:24Z jcowan: edw: See the original six functions of the Internet: person-to-person email, mailing lists, discussion fora, real-time conversation, remote control of computers, and information retrieval.  There is now a seventh for things like online shopping, but I don't know how to put it into a pithy phrase like these (which come from a U.S. court decision, I think).
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2020-05-19T15:31:17Z gwatt: ecommerce seems pithy enough
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2020-05-19T15:37:07Z edw: Strange that pr0n was not mentioned, jcowan. I remember some racy ASCII art back in the day.
2020-05-19T15:38:50Z mdhughes: display of media should definitely be its own thing, not just "information retrieval".
2020-05-19T15:40:44Z edw: Ah yes, I missed that, mdhughes. jcowan: Perhaps a generic "processing of transactions" would encompass ecommerce and much more.
2020-05-19T15:41:10Z edw: "Transaction processing," more consinctly.
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2020-05-19T15:44:26Z edw: In Schemes that support threads, is it appropriate to assume that a location contains or refers to a valid value (including nil), or must a mutex be held by a reader thread to ensure that e.g. a pointer isn't half-updated by a writer?
2020-05-19T15:45:28Z jcowan: "Transaction processing" is good
2020-05-19T15:46:06Z jcowan: I think it's a general assumption that writing into a location is atomic.
2020-05-19T15:46:31Z edw: I would like to assume so, but with concurrency comes paranoia.
2020-05-19T15:46:31Z jcowan: I don't see that textual media are any different from "media", though
2020-05-19T15:47:12Z jcowan: On a CPU where addresses are wider than the word size, that's possible, but such machines are rare/unknown today
2020-05-19T15:47:50Z edw: jcowan: One day I will write my ground-up Apple II Scheme, and I will need to deal with that.
2020-05-19T15:47:51Z jcowan: (on the PDP-10, addresses were only half a word, so a pair was a single word, the same size as an int or single float
2020-05-19T15:48:12Z mdhughes: Text and media are very different, not just in client, but size, continuations, streaming instead of downloads…
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2020-05-19T15:49:05Z jcowan: Text can be streamed and often was in the days of narrow bandwidth.  I don't know what you mean by "continuation"
2020-05-19T15:49:07Z edw: They had /usr/share/dict and us census data back in the '70s. It's not like big files (relatively speaking) were alien at the time.
2020-05-19T15:49:41Z jcowan: I remember streaming clients for AP News, too
2020-05-19T15:49:51Z mdhughes: Downloads and streams get interrupted, and you need to be able to continue downloading from that point; that's not normally needed in text or other static files.
2020-05-19T15:50:00Z edw: mdhughes: Data streaming (whether stock quotes or audio data) does seem different from transmission of files.
2020-05-19T15:50:37Z edw: mdhughes: "It's in there." One of the big reasons we used ZMODEM vs X/Y-MODEM was it could continue transfers.
2020-05-19T15:51:03Z edw: Or Z/Y- xs XMODEM. Memories are fuzzy.
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2020-05-19T15:52:44Z edw: And there was a competitor to FTP that I can't recall that was popular among ware and pr0n afficianados in the dorm that featured resumes of file transfers.
2020-05-19T15:53:47Z edw: FSP?
2020-05-19T15:54:16Z edw: https://www.typography.com/blog/text-for-proofing-fonts
2020-05-19T15:54:43Z edw: Err, I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Service_Protocol
2020-05-19T15:55:36Z edw: "FSP never reached the popularity of FTP for legitimate use ..., but became very popular in the early-to-mid-1990s for underground sites containing pornography and/or warez.[citation needed]"
2020-05-19T15:56:24Z edw: I should write the blog post that provides the missing citation. Super Dave on the 10th floor of Towers at Drexel U introduced FSP to me in 1992.
2020-05-19T15:57:26Z Riastradh: Make sure to cite Wikipedia to make it a proper cyclicitation.
2020-05-19T16:00:02Z wasamasa: there's also FXP
2020-05-19T16:01:34Z edw: Wikipedia immortality may not come for those who too flamboyantly roll their eyes at its absurdities.
2020-05-19T16:05:44Z gwatt: I have a fun story about fake wikipedia information and citations.
2020-05-19T16:06:38Z gwatt: At IU, no one knew Kent Dybvig's actual first name. He always wrote it "R. Kent Dybvig". Someone started a joke that it was "Ronak" and that ended up on wikipedia.
2020-05-19T16:07:20Z gwatt: Wikipedia eventually took it down, but not before someone apparently saw that name and wrote a paper citing some work of "Ronak Kent Dybvig".
2020-05-19T16:08:26Z gwatt: I don't know if anyone ever used that paper as a source to keep the fake name on wikipedia.
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2020-05-19T16:15:10Z edw: I am imaging the edit war. "What's your citation that your first name is not Ronak?"
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2020-05-19T16:19:13Z mdhughes: And WP won't accept first-person testimony. So if Kent shows up and says what his first name is, they'll just block him.
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2020-05-19T16:27:39Z edw: mdhughes: I think it should be sufficient to know that his first name isn't "Ronak." Maybe he doesn't want to tell people what his first name is.
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2020-05-19T16:29:14Z edw: And what is everything at heart but at some level first-person testimony? Wikipedia doesn't have a coherent epistemology.
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2020-05-19T16:34:56Z mdhughes: Second-hand gossip.
2020-05-19T16:40:54Z edw: I mean, at best, everything is first hand testimony. And it's all down-hill from there.
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2020-05-19T17:00:21Z zaifir: gwatt: I love that story.
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2020-05-19T17:14:54Z edw: Holy cow! Nano has syntax highlighting. What has the world come to?
2020-05-19T17:15:39Z zaifir: That was clearly the most important feature it was missing! ;)
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2020-05-19T17:19:21Z pjb: edw: now we'd need a femto to not have it?
2020-05-19T17:20:36Z zaifir: Yeah, nano isn't particularly tiny.
2020-05-19T17:21:31Z gwatt: There's pico, does that have syntax highlighting?
2020-05-19T17:21:35Z wasamasa: it also has autoindent
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2020-05-19T17:38:05Z mdhughes: ed is still the standard editor.
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2020-05-19T21:57:47Z jcowan: I'll trade a little standardosity for a little convenience and run ex most of the time, falling back to ed only to work around a few ex bugs like its inability to use a replacement string (in substitution) containing a newline.  In addition, GNU ed can handle much longer lines.
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2020-05-19T22:50:54Z edw: I'v forgotten, is there a scheme-bot here? And if so, how do I request they eval something?
2020-05-19T22:51:15Z zaifir: rudybot: Front and center!
2020-05-19T22:51:16Z rudybot: zaifir: It looks hilarious on the front-page of the main node. All this scenic imagery, then just front-and-center ahead of all of-it, Ol' Mopey-Face.
2020-05-19T22:51:57Z zaifir: You should be able to type him some Scheme.  He may evaluate it, or he may just complain about some arcane `with-limit' nonsens.
2020-05-19T22:52:00Z zaifir: *nonsense
2020-05-19T22:53:25Z edw: rudybot: (* (+ (* 2 0.004) 0.04) 24 30)
2020-05-19T22:53:28Z rudybot: edw: your sandbox is ready
2020-05-19T22:53:29Z rudybot: edw: ; Value: 34.56
2020-05-19T22:53:36Z edw: Merci, rudibot.
2020-05-19T22:53:48Z edw: Merci, rudybot.
2020-05-19T22:54:10Z edw: zaifir: Thank you.
2020-05-19T22:54:28Z zaifir: edw: Of course.
2020-05-19T22:55:10Z zaifir: Curious, do people use form-feed-character pagination in code?  I know this is a long-standing convention in the Elisp world, or something.
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2020-05-19T23:04:03Z aeth: hmm, I wonder if it does quasiquote
2020-05-19T23:04:06Z aeth: rudybot: `(,(+ 1 1) ,(* 3 4))
2020-05-19T23:04:06Z rudybot: aeth: your sandbox is ready
2020-05-19T23:04:06Z rudybot: aeth: ; Value: '(2 12)
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2020-05-20T01:54:16Z jcowan: Nano is just an open-source pico; it's not meant to be smaller than pico particularly.  And pico has nothing to do with size; it's PIne COmposer.
2020-05-20T01:55:04Z jcowan: ^L pagination was a Teco feature, because files were often longer than memory, so Teco would read up to and including a ^L or memory filled up, whichever came first.
2020-05-20T01:56:27Z jcowan: In order to read the next buffer, you had to write the current buffer to the output file.  That's also why backup files were necessary, so you could edit a file without progressively destroying it.
2020-05-20T01:56:47Z jcowan: zaifir: ^^
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2020-05-20T02:23:24Z Riastradh: jcowan: It is also a modern Emacs feature -- you can use C-x ] to go to the next page, and C-x [ to go back to the previous one, so it makes for convenient navigation.
2020-05-20T02:27:46Z foof`: or C-s C-q C-l and C-r C-q C-l
2020-05-20T02:29:15Z Riastradh: Can also mark a page at a time with C-x C-p.
2020-05-20T02:29:27Z Riastradh: <foof> or C-r C-q C-l C-SPC C-s C-q C-l
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2020-05-20T02:48:58Z zaifir: Hmm, interesting.
2020-05-20T02:55:39Z Riastradh: `C-x n p' also narrows to the page.
2020-05-20T03:00:27Z zaifir: GNU standards also recommend form-feed pagination, which is perhaps unsurprising.
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2020-05-20T03:06:56Z Riastradh: jcowan: Does RwhateverRS have modexp yet?
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2020-05-20T05:06:23Z foof`: Riastradh: a sufficiently smart compiler can optimize (mod (exp x)) :P
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2020-05-20T05:07:36Z foof`: well... that optimizes trivially to a runtime error but it could do something more interesting with (mod (exp x) m)
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2020-05-20T08:10:44Z elflng: who
2020-05-20T08:10:46Z elflng: who
2020-05-20T08:10:50Z rain1: who
2020-05-20T08:11:02Z elflng: sorry, slash key got stuck
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2020-05-20T08:14:25Z aeth: The CSI theme song? who are you who who who who
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2020-05-20T10:47:40Z jcowan: Riastradh: No.  Should it?  This would be a reasomable time to ballot it.
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2020-05-20T13:05:31Z msiism: I'm going through The Little Schemer and was just gonna implement lat?. Unfortunately, GNU Guile doesn't seem to have atom?. Am I missing something here? The Guile version I use in 2.0.13. The error I get is: "In procedure module-lookup: Unbound variable: atom?".
2020-05-20T13:07:21Z msiism: Which means, if I understand that right, that atom? is not defined.
2020-05-20T13:09:20Z gwatt: msiism: That's correct. You can define atom? as (not (pair? ...))
2020-05-20T13:10:37Z msiism: gwatt: OK then :). This reminds me, I really need to grok what a pair is. But the book will probably explain that to me. Thanks.
2020-05-20T13:12:32Z msiism: So, that implies that a proper list is also always a pair, I guess.
2020-05-20T13:12:49Z gwatt: or the empty list
2020-05-20T13:12:58Z msiism: Ah, right.
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2020-05-20T13:22:45Z jcowan: A pair is just a data structure with two elements in it, most often used to make lists, but not necessarily.
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2020-05-20T13:29:12Z msiism: jcowan: I get this, I think. I only found it weird that, if I remember correctly, a proper list is a "sequence" of nested pairs. There must be a good reason to build lists like that. I mean, if I'd make a shopping list I'd probably not do it like that.
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2020-05-20T13:30:00Z jcowan: you can add things on the front trivially, and you can insert things into the list without doing big shuffles just by changing a link.
2020-05-20T13:30:42Z jcowan: You're right that they are nested, but Lisp programmers don't think of lists that way, most of the time; they treat them as linear sequences because the convention is so strong.
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2020-05-20T13:31:44Z msiism puts that in his notebook
2020-05-20T13:38:20Z zaifir: "Scheme does not properly have a list type, just as C does not have a string type. Rather, Scheme has a binary-tuple type, from which one can build binary trees. There is an interpretation of Scheme values that allows one to treat these trees as lists."
2020-05-20T13:38:30Z zaifir: ^^ --Olin Shivers in SRFI 1
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2020-05-20T13:40:23Z msiism: Oh, I see.
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2020-05-20T13:46:32Z zaifir: msiism: You can generally forget the implementation details and just think of a Scheme list as a type constructed with `cons' and eliminated with `car' and `cdr'.
2020-05-20T13:48:42Z zaifir: msiism: Thinking in terms of how you'd write a shopping list doesn't help much.  A list is an inductively-defined type: A list is either the empty list or the cons of an object and a list.
2020-05-20T13:49:33Z zaifir: Assuming one doesn't mess around with set-car!/-cdr!, this model is just fine. :)
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2020-05-20T13:55:37Z msiism: zaifir: OK, I see. Thanks.
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2020-05-20T14:16:39Z Riastradh: jcowan: Yes please!  (modexp a e n) = (modulo (expt a e) n), except better.
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2020-05-20T14:19:38Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: please fix your connection
2020-05-20T14:19:51Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: Let me know when you have done so.
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2020-05-20T14:20:29Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2020-05-20T14:20:38Z Riastradh has set mode +b lockywolf_!*@*
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2020-05-20T14:55:49Z foof`: jcowan: it's defined in (chibi math prime)
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2020-05-20T14:57:40Z jcowan: Thanks
2020-05-20T14:58:01Z Riastradh: My definition is at <https://mumble.net/~campbell/2015/01/21/inverse-mod-power-of-two>.
2020-05-20T14:58:10Z jcowan: Saw it, yes.
2020-05-20T14:58:12Z Riastradh: jcowan: Should also adopt euclid.
2020-05-20T14:58:23Z Riastradh: (modinv2^2^i is maybe not that generally useful, though.)
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2020-05-20T15:21:03Z Riastradh: jcowan: how about LLL
2020-05-20T15:21:23Z jcowan: Sorry, only 26^3 TLAs
2020-05-20T15:22:01Z Riastradh: C'mon, there's only one real LLL -- Lenstra-Lenstra-Lovasz!
2020-05-20T15:22:04Z Riastradh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenstra%E2%80%93Lenstra%E2%80%93Lov%C3%A1sz_lattice_basis_reduction_algorithm
2020-05-20T15:26:10Z Riastradh: It does basically everything, from breaking RSA to finding minimax floating-point polynomial approximations to real functions.
2020-05-20T15:26:25Z Riastradh: So it should clearly be a widely available primitive.
2020-05-20T15:30:11Z Riastradh: (See, e.g., <https://facthacks.cr.yp.to/lattice.html> and <https://fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2012/Fahrplan/events/5275.en.html> for a quick primer on the first one (or anything on Coppersmith's attacks), and <https://www.marc.mezzarobba.net/m2/summary_chevillard.pdf> for a quick reference on the second.)
2020-05-20T15:31:03Z wasamasa: LLL is some heavy wizardry
2020-05-20T15:31:29Z wasamasa: I don't like writing modexp/invmod over and over either
2020-05-20T15:31:36Z wasamasa: but still more than using python
2020-05-20T15:35:43Z Riastradh: LLL is black magic, yes.
2020-05-20T15:36:00Z Riastradh: I use it to sort my socks, personally.
2020-05-20T15:36:23Z foof`: are your socks encrypted?
2020-05-20T15:36:29Z Riastradh: that would be telling
2020-05-20T15:36:50Z foof`: security through obscurity!
2020-05-20T15:39:53Z Riastradh: security through axiom of sock choice
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2020-05-20T17:49:38Z jcowan: Only wear white and black socks.  That way your blind butler can get you a pair of socks with minimum waste motion.
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2020-05-20T20:47:03Z erkin: I'm trying to install MIT Scheme on Fedora, but it's complaining about the lack of *.com files under src/lib.
2020-05-20T20:47:13Z erkin: I only did ./configure && make && make install
2020-05-20T20:47:46Z erkin: There are .com files in src/lib/{x11,imail,compiler} but not directly under src/lib.
2020-05-20T20:49:34Z erkin: Hm, deleting the directory and trying in a freshly extracted tarball worked.
2020-05-20T20:49:42Z erkin: I guess there were leftovers from a broken configure.
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2020-05-20T20:57:15Z wasamasa: I'm very sorry, erkin
2020-05-20T20:57:33Z wasamasa: someone wrote me a mail after that blog post and asked for people I know who'd support a guile emacs revival
2020-05-20T20:57:44Z wasamasa: I pointed that person to your mastodon thread
2020-05-20T20:57:47Z erkin: Haha
2020-05-20T20:58:18Z wasamasa: maybe they're already lurking in here
2020-05-20T20:58:28Z erkin: No worries, I'm willing to help as much as I can, however little it might be. I hope something comes out of it... eventually.
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2020-05-20T20:59:47Z erkin: It's too big of a morsel for me to chew alone since I don't know C well enough to understand Emacs's guts.
2020-05-20T21:00:19Z wasamasa: > I'd love to start a small community that would work on this project.  Please let me know if anyone else has reached out to you.
2020-05-20T21:00:32Z wasamasa: I bent the definition of "reached out" a bit here
2020-05-20T21:00:55Z erkin: Hah
2020-05-20T21:02:21Z erkin: I know that there's about a dozen people who would be willing to do on and off work on such a project.
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2020-05-21T03:57:44Z lockywolf__: Apparently, not too many people are submitting something for the Scheme Workshop 2020
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2020-05-21T13:36:11Z lf94: Could someone please help me understand this walk function? I understand *most* of it. The issue is the last line, when it takes the rest of `pr` and continues to compare it against `s`...
2020-05-21T13:36:14Z lf94: (dene (walk u s)
2020-05-21T13:36:16Z lf94: ( let ((pr (and (var? u) (assp ( λ (v) (var=? u v)) s))))
2020-05-21T13:36:18Z lf94: (if pr (walk (cdr pr) s) u)))
2020-05-21T13:36:32Z lf94: This is from the microKanren paper
2020-05-21T13:37:12Z lf94: If it finds a match, from what I understand, it will take the *rest* of the match and compare it to all of s
2020-05-21T13:37:25Z lf94: So I have an invocation like this:
2020-05-21T13:38:21Z lf94: (walk (var 3) `((,(var 3) (,(var 3) ,(var 4)))) but it returns (#(3) #(4)) which is not what I'd expect
2020-05-21T13:38:27Z lf94: I'd expect #(4) to be returned
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2020-05-21T13:38:43Z lf94: (var, var=?, etc just wrap everything in vector)
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2020-05-21T13:40:13Z lf94: > (walk (var 1) `((,(var 1) (,(var 1) ,(var 3)))))
2020-05-21T13:40:15Z lf94: ((#(1) #(3)))
2020-05-21T13:40:32Z lf94: (chezscheme by the way)
2020-05-21T13:42:44Z lf94: Ah ok, my understanding of assp was off
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2020-05-21T13:52:37Z lf94: I would expect the following result to be #(4) not #(3):
2020-05-21T13:52:39Z lf94: > (walk (var 1) `((,(var 1) ,(var 3)) (,(var 3) ,(var 4))))
2020-05-21T13:52:42Z lf94: (#(3))
2020-05-21T13:53:12Z lf94: Since if `u` is found the first time around, it should then change `u` to be what's in the result (here 3), and search for that?
2020-05-21T13:53:14Z lf94: Right?
2020-05-21T13:55:42Z lf94: "change u", you know what I mean. Call `walk` again passing the new value.
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2020-05-21T14:52:03Z rain1: lf94: did you figrue it out
2020-05-21T14:52:23Z lf94: No, I broke it down into walk1 and walk2 lol
2020-05-21T14:52:44Z lf94: I will figure it out, only a matter of time ;)
2020-05-21T14:53:05Z rain1: okay
2020-05-21T14:53:08Z rain1: ill read what you wrote
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2020-05-21T14:56:03Z rain1: lf94: mk substitutions are supposed to be in "triangular form"
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2020-05-21T14:56:20Z rain1: your example doesn't give the expected result because it's not in the triangular form
2020-05-21T14:56:38Z rain1: triangular form means that you have a list of (var . value) ... then (var . unbound-var) ...
2020-05-21T14:56:39Z lf94: triangular form?
2020-05-21T14:56:45Z lf94: Ah.
2020-05-21T14:57:13Z lf94: I thought . / cons / '() were equivalent
2020-05-21T14:57:26Z lf94: or "practically the same"
2020-05-21T14:57:33Z rain1: oh dotted pairs and conses are the same
2020-05-21T14:57:53Z lf94: How would you call this function?
2020-05-21T14:57:56Z lf94: The walk function
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2020-05-21T15:00:48Z rain1: sorry i have to go
2020-05-21T15:01:00Z rain1: bbs hopefully
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2020-05-21T15:14:58Z lf94: Searching for "scheme triangular form" brings up nothing useful :p
2020-05-21T15:16:14Z lf94: Hey that worked, mostly lol
2020-05-21T15:16:45Z lf94: (define s `((,(var 1) . ,(var 3)) (,(var 3) . ,(var 4))))
2020-05-21T15:17:02Z lf94: Then when walk is run, returns (#(3) . #(4))
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2020-05-21T15:28:05Z lf94: > (walk (var 1) (ext-s (var 1) (var 2) (ext-s (var 2) (var 3) (ext-s (var 3) (var 4) '()))))
2020-05-21T15:28:08Z lf94: (#(2) . #(3))
2020-05-21T15:28:13Z lf94: Not returning (#(3) . #(4)) ...
2020-05-21T15:29:45Z lf94: Ah it worked now :)
2020-05-21T15:29:59Z lf94: I think I messed up (walk) by pulling it apart
2020-05-21T15:30:10Z lf94: Writing it as a whole function makes it return #(4) as expected
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2020-05-21T15:38:02Z rain1: back
2020-05-21T15:38:09Z rain1: i feel like i gave the wrong definition of triangular substitution
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2020-05-21T15:39:40Z rain1: ok
2020-05-21T15:40:01Z rain1:  triangular substitution just means that you have a list of pairs, (logic-var . value or logic-var)
2020-05-21T15:40:19Z rain1: (pg 26 of https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/213817229.pdf )
2020-05-21T15:40:44Z rain1: the implication of this is that you can't just use assoc, you need a recursive lookup function in the case that you see a logic-var in the CDR - so that's what walk is
2020-05-21T15:41:44Z rain1: so the idea of the walk function is that it works on both variables and values
2020-05-21T15:41:49Z rain1: in the case of a value it will just return the value back
2020-05-21T15:42:16Z rain1: this lets you neatly define it by recursion, assp does the initial lookup and then instead of casing on whether you found a value or logic-var, you just blindly call walk again
2020-05-21T15:42:27Z rain1: the entry point of walk is what does the comparison
2020-05-21T15:42:56Z lf94: right
2020-05-21T15:43:23Z lf94: It's a bit confusing when you use the term logic-avr
2020-05-21T15:43:24Z lf94: var
2020-05-21T15:43:55Z lf94: I'm pretty new to scheme :)
2020-05-21T15:44:24Z rain1: what's confusing about logic-var? in terms of the implementation this is just a length 1 vector
2020-05-21T15:44:36Z rain1: but another implementation could create a logic-var 'record' or something to hold them
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2020-05-21T15:52:13Z lf94: hm
2020-05-21T15:52:31Z lf94: The confusion is what is a logic-var :)
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2020-05-21T15:53:20Z rain1: so basically it's an integer in a box, and that box looks different from anything else
2020-05-21T15:53:36Z rain1: minikanren data is stuff like numbers, symbols, strings, pairs
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2020-05-21T15:54:23Z lf94: Is it safe to say it's pretty much synonymous to a boxed value?
2020-05-21T15:54:41Z rain1: i wouldn't say that
2020-05-21T15:54:47Z lf94: "pretty much"
2020-05-21T15:54:53Z lf94: Ok so not at all then
2020-05-21T15:55:24Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2020-05-21T15:55:31Z Riastradh has set mode -b lockywolf_!*@*
2020-05-21T15:55:38Z rain1: the idea is that if _.0 maps to 'foo then the data (list 1 2 _.0) represents the object (1 2 foo)
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2020-05-21T15:58:31Z lockywolf_: Sorry for unintentional spamming.
2020-05-21T15:58:41Z Riastradh: No worries, it happens!
2020-05-21T15:58:54Z lockywolf_: Is there some canonical BibTeX for r7rs?
2020-05-21T15:59:08Z Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh
2020-05-21T15:59:22Z lockywolf_: The one on Google Scholar is em... brief
2020-05-21T15:59:26Z jcowan: Variables are (a) distinct from each other, (b) constructible at will, and (c) distinct from any datum.  That's all they actually require.  A record immutably containing an integer is a reasonable strategy.
2020-05-21T16:00:56Z jcowan: I spent some months (not full time) trying to figure out how to do logic using the ability of macros to construct new things, but never could see it clear.
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2020-05-21T16:09:02Z erkin: Speaking of which, is SLaTeX still useable?
2020-05-21T16:09:06Z erkin: Or are there better alternatives now?
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2020-05-21T16:45:46Z lf94: jcowan: is that directed to me?
2020-05-21T16:46:23Z jcowan: "Variables are" is.  The one about macros is to the channel in general
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2020-05-21T16:53:59Z erkin: Riastradh: `vector' seems to be broken in MIT Scheme v10.1. `(vector 'a)' errors out with `Unbound variable: nmv-header?'.
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2020-05-21T16:54:27Z Riastradh: Well that's interesting!
2020-05-21T16:54:28Z Riastradh: 10.1.what?
2020-05-21T16:54:35Z erkin: 10.1.10
2020-05-21T16:54:45Z Riastradh: How did you get it?
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2020-05-21T16:55:02Z erkin: Fetched directly from FTP and built manually.
2020-05-21T16:55:02Z Riastradh: oh
2020-05-21T16:55:02Z Riastradh: huh
2020-05-21T16:55:18Z Riastradh: It's not vector that's broken; it's the printer that's broken.
2020-05-21T16:55:24Z erkin: Interesting.
2020-05-21T16:56:08Z Riastradh: whisky tango foxtrot
2020-05-21T16:56:34Z jcowan: or, What the failed-regression
2020-05-21T16:57:21Z Riastradh: OK, this was a bad backport from master which somehow made it into the release; it's been fixed in the release-10 branch already.
2020-05-21T16:57:25Z erkin: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mit-scheme/+bug/1851950
2020-05-21T16:58:50Z Riastradh: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/commit/?h=release-10&id=838201b0608c1809992b41c5c6a7c66790002f8d
2020-05-21T16:58:51Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/13Z2FOXeVL
2020-05-21T16:59:01Z Riastradh: are you calling my url fat, rudybot
2020-05-21T16:59:11Z erkin: Great!
2020-05-21T17:00:18Z Riastradh: If you `git clone -b release-10 https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/mit-scheme.git' you should be able to build that using the 10.1.10 installation.
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2020-05-21T17:13:11Z erkin: That does the trick.
2020-05-21T17:13:31Z lf94: rain1: do you understand what "s/c" means in the μkanren paper?
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2020-05-21T18:11:47Z rain1: lf94: yeah
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2020-05-21T18:12:47Z rain1: the control is implemented using a monad
2020-05-21T18:13:29Z rain1: the monad has state and control, s/c
2020-05-21T18:13:37Z rain1: the state is the unification state, a triangular substitution
2020-05-21T18:14:16Z rain1: the control is a list of continuations used to exit the current computation and perform a different branch on failure
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2020-05-21T18:14:33Z lf94: ahh
2020-05-21T18:14:37Z lf94: state/control...gotchya
2020-05-21T18:15:08Z lf94: how is it stored in one variable? as a pair?
2020-05-21T18:16:54Z rain1: yes
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2020-05-21T18:59:05Z wasamasa: I miss taylan
2020-05-21T18:59:10Z wasamasa: rudybot: seen taylan
2020-05-21T18:59:10Z rudybot: wasamasa: taylan was seen in #scheme one year ago, saying "because that's something I frequently lament(ed) not being able to do when writing async code, back when I used Objective-C and currently using Java", and then taylan was seen leaving the channel in #scheme one year ago, saying ""Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients""
2020-05-21T18:59:28Z wasamasa: though for an emacs, not scheme thing
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2020-05-21T20:25:53Z erkin: wasamasa: I containerised SchemeBBS. Because quarantine is giving me weird ideas.
2020-05-21T20:25:59Z wasamasa: hahaha
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2020-05-21T20:30:34Z jcowan: Riastradh: Or, What the failed-regression?
2020-05-21T20:31:17Z Riastradh: I...what?
2020-05-21T20:31:50Z erkin: Up key mishap
2020-05-21T20:33:44Z wasamasa: up key funk gon give it to ya
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2020-05-21T20:49:00Z erkin: wasamasa: If you wanna give it a try https://github.com/TeamWau/docker-schemebbs
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2020-05-21T20:50:20Z wasamasa: I like how it's in the appropriate team namespace
2020-05-21T20:50:37Z erkin: :-3
2020-05-21T21:05:59Z jcowan: The problem you mentioned earlier about printing vectors in the latest MIT Scheme.  You said "Whisky tango foxtrot" to which I replied as above, belatedly.
2020-05-21T21:06:27Z Riastradh: ah
2020-05-21T21:09:44Z zaifir: erkin: Containerized BBSs?  What next, ed in WASM?
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2020-05-21T21:10:50Z erkin: zaifir: All webapps are served in containers these days because people evidently don't want to go through the hassle of maintaining them.
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2020-05-21T21:15:21Z erkin: I'd put up an example instance but my VPS is too weak to handle Docker.
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2020-05-21T21:35:17Z zaifir: erkin: The modern Web: https://xkcd.com/2021/
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2020-05-21T21:56:13Z erkin: Pretty much.
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2020-05-21T22:02:14Z jcowan: ed in WASM sounds like a fine idea
2020-05-21T22:02:40Z jcowan: although I'd write it in some better language that can compile to Wasm, of course
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2020-05-21T22:12:31Z erkin: Speaking of which, what's the state of wasm in Schemeworld?
2020-05-21T22:13:00Z erkin: Is there any implementation that can produce decent binaries?
2020-05-21T22:13:15Z Riastradh: Sounds like it's your job to teach MIT Scheme's compiler to generate wasm!
2020-05-21T22:14:08Z erkin: band2wasm(1)
2020-05-21T22:14:34Z bitmapper: oh thank god i thought you were referring to lisp machine bands
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2020-05-21T22:18:50Z erkin: I honestly have no idea how MIT Scheme bands work.
2020-05-21T22:19:01Z erkin: I know they're like CL world images.
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2020-05-22T00:12:50Z jcowan: Schism is a pretty limited Scheme, but it does compile to Wasm and is self-hosing.
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2020-05-22T00:13:53Z erkin: Oh yeah, Google's Scheme.
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2020-05-22T00:15:02Z jcowan: and Chibi as a whole can be compiled to Wasm.
2020-05-22T00:15:27Z jcowan: in the Usual Way, if you know what I mean, Pooh.
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2020-05-22T01:35:56Z lockywolf_: Still, what is the official BibTeX for r7rs?
2020-05-22T01:37:00Z lockywolf_: What is even the type of the document? Technical report? If yes, then of which organisation?
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2020-05-22T05:05:24Z greyeax: Hey there, how does one construct a list in a key value pair?
2020-05-22T05:08:15Z Riastradh: Can you be more specific?
2020-05-22T05:09:50Z greyeax: Mm
2020-05-22T05:10:43Z greyeax: well i'm trying to do http headers
2020-05-22T05:10:44Z greyeax: so like
2020-05-22T05:10:54Z greyeax: Accept: application/json
2020-05-22T05:12:19Z greyeax: more specifically, I'm trying to use the http-client library in chicken scheme, and i need to use a header object from the intarweb library, which creates the object based on an input list
2020-05-22T05:12:41Z greyeax: and it needs to be key value
2020-05-22T05:12:48Z greyeax: if that makes any sense at all.
2020-05-22T05:12:53Z greyeax: i only loosely understand most of these terms
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2020-05-22T05:21:37Z greyeax: ahh it's an 'association list'
2020-05-22T05:22:55Z Riastradh: Guessing that it wants a list structured like (list (list 'accept "application/json") (list 'connection "close")), or maybe (list (cons 'accept "application/json") (cons 'connection "close")).
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2020-05-22T05:26:04Z greyeax: Riastradh, would those be considered association lists?
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2020-05-22T05:29:16Z Riastradh: yes
2020-05-22T05:29:44Z greyeax: tyty
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2020-05-22T05:31:18Z greyeax: can i ask what the ' signifies?
2020-05-22T05:31:29Z greyeax: as in 'accept and 'connection in your example?
2020-05-22T05:32:12Z Riastradh: Shorthand for (quote accept); `quote' is a special operator that returns the object that represents the syntax of its operand, without evaluating that syntax.
2020-05-22T05:33:14Z Riastradh: For example, when you evaluate (quote (x y z)) you get back a list of three symbols, whereas if you evaluate (x y z), then Scheme will look for variables named x, y, and z, and apply the value of the variable x as a procedure to arguments that are the values of x and z.
2020-05-22T05:33:42Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let ((x 42)) (list x 'x))
2020-05-22T05:33:50Z Riastradh: rudybot?
2020-05-22T05:33:53Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time
2020-05-22T05:34:18Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let ((x 42)) (list x 'x))
2020-05-22T05:34:19Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2020-05-22T05:34:19Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: (mcons 42 (mcons 'x '()))
2020-05-22T05:34:22Z Riastradh: bah
2020-05-22T05:34:28Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let ((x 42)) (write (list x 'x)))
2020-05-22T05:34:29Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; stdout: "(42 x)"
2020-05-22T05:34:51Z greyeax: Ahhhhh
2020-05-22T05:38:25Z greyeax: unrelated question, is it possible to insert a variable in a string?
2020-05-22T05:38:38Z greyeax: also that was a really good explanation
2020-05-22T05:38:46Z Riastradh: (let ((x "world")) (string-append "hello " x))
2020-05-22T05:39:14Z Riastradh: You may also find something conventionally called `format' if you poke around Chicken; it might look something like  (let ((x "world")) (format #f "hello ~A" x))
2020-05-22T05:39:53Z Riastradh: You may also find `formatting combinators', which are a little more flexible than just doing `string-append'.
2020-05-22T05:40:43Z greyeax: so indeed there is
2020-05-22T05:40:53Z greyeax: "common lisp style" allegedly
2020-05-22T05:40:57Z Riastradh: yes
2020-05-22T05:40:57Z greyeax: thanks!
2020-05-22T05:44:27Z greyeax: and so it was, my little assicated list: https://pastebin.com/C6ytgKWS
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2020-05-22T08:30:28Z rain1: morning schemers
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2020-05-22T08:45:34Z weinholt: hello there, rain1
2020-05-22T08:49:03Z andrei-n: Is it normal that HTDP is much harder than SICP?  I finished SICP in 4 months, but I'm staying more than a whole year on HTDP...
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2020-05-22T08:50:49Z C-Keen: what do you experience as harder? The exercises? The presentation of the material in general? Or the material covered itself?
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2020-05-22T08:52:46Z andrei-n: Well, SICP was more motivating.  I had to constantly search for things I didn't know, so I was learning, but in HTDP the exercises are very repetitive and there are a lot more, so it takes more time.
2020-05-22T08:53:14Z andrei-n: Also sometimes I get the impression that I'm not learning anything.
2020-05-22T08:53:26Z C-Keen: repetition is the approach here. see the talks from mike sperber
2020-05-22T08:54:10Z C-Keen: https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9800-how_to_teach_programming_to_your_loved_ones
2020-05-22T08:54:31Z C-Keen: it's not about htdp in general but the approach taken from that teacher group
2020-05-22T08:54:47Z C-Keen: so yes it may not be as appealing to you
2020-05-22T08:56:34Z andrei-n: Also I don't understand why they need several languages for just one book.
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2020-05-22T08:57:28Z andrei-n: Also is there a text version for the video?  It's rather long...
2020-05-22T09:02:30Z C-Keen: not that I know of
2020-05-22T09:03:03Z C-Keen: the language level approach is typical for teaching in racket. The idea is that you model the language to make the point you are trying to teach as accessible as possible
2020-05-22T09:08:25Z aeth: I gues the difference is that SICP teaches CS using Scheme, while HtDP teaches Racket.
2020-05-22T09:09:25Z andrei-n: You can also use Racket for SICP...
2020-05-22T09:11:00Z fizzie: HtDP said "'lambda' is a special case of 'local'" when they were using it for us, which was very jarring.
2020-05-22T09:11:40Z aeth: andrei-n: Yes, but then you're still *using* (a tiny subset of) Racket.
2020-05-22T09:11:42Z fizzie: Happy to see it now says "one way to understand how 'lambda' works is to view it as an abbreviation for a 'local' expression", which is much more pleasant.
2020-05-22T09:12:23Z aeth: local aexpression m b d a. I wonder what the other four letters are :-p
2020-05-22T09:12:57Z andrei-n: I didn't really like that there was no let...
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2020-05-22T09:22:39Z fizzie: Well, okay, it's still a little bizarre how it says (right after that): "For example, (lambda (x) (* 10 x)) is short for (local ((define some-name (lambda (x) (* 10 x)))) some-name)", with the short thing appearing in its entirety in the long thing it's supposedly short for. It's like one of those recursive acronym dealies.
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2020-05-22T09:40:52Z CORDIC: fizzie: You would be correct.
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2020-05-22T11:26:44Z mdhughes: I much prefer teaching the same way I learn things: Brief but thorough instruction in the basics (like "type exactly what I tell you, observe the same results"), and then research & develop by self.
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2020-05-22T13:47:34Z lockywolf_: Riastradh, MIT/GNU Scheme is still GPL2?
2020-05-22T13:47:49Z edw: lockywolf_: Your wish is my command. The edn lib is now on snow-fort.org.
2020-05-22T13:48:13Z lockywolf_: edw, wonderful :)
2020-05-22T13:48:26Z edw: Can't wait for the bug reports.
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2020-05-22T13:56:11Z lockywolf_: the first one is, perhaps, snow's :). the "Recent activity" list on the main page doesn't include the (edn) package, which is clearly incorrect :) I have already emaild the chibi-scheme mailing list
2020-05-22T13:56:19Z lockywolf_: thank you for your work
2020-05-22T13:58:05Z edw: lockywolf_: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess foof's got a crontab entry or something that regenerates the site once a(n) hour/day/month.
2020-05-22T13:58:32Z lockywolf_: that's possible
2020-05-22T13:59:24Z wasamasa: the correct answer is IMPOSSIBRU
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2020-05-22T14:43:51Z jcowan: It really annoys me that every package ends up with its own nil/null object.  For JSON, the symbol `null` is good enough, but IWBNI SQL's null and edn's null and this one's null and that one's were all eq?.
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2020-05-22T14:54:05Z edw: If it's any consolation, jcowan, it pained me to do that. Given that edn has a much richer set of data structures than R7RS-small, I was erring on the side of preserving semantics, assuming that some amount of post-processing will need to be done by the caller. Also, chibi parse returns nil on parsing failure, so for practical reasons I had to create a lib-specfic null. (That said I could use the more complicated interface and catch
2020-05-22T14:54:05Z edw: failures in the failure continuation.)
2020-05-22T14:55:13Z edw: Otherwise (read-edn "{43%$...") and (read-edn "nil") would produce the same output.
2020-05-22T14:55:47Z edw: I should proabably throw an error on garbage input and simplify the null handling.
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2020-05-22T15:00:23Z jcowan: Definitely better to raise an error.  This is also a good application for continuable errors: the handler can return its idea of what value to use.
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2020-05-22T15:19:03Z edw: jcowan: Your wish is my command. I now use call-with-parse and signal an error on failure, and return 'nil instead of a yet another nil-ish singleton object.
2020-05-22T15:19:15Z edw: Pushed to snow-fort.org as v0.2.0.
2020-05-22T15:19:39Z edw: The world is a slightly less ugly place.
2020-05-22T15:19:56Z wasamasa: rudybot: 50 shades of nil
2020-05-22T15:19:59Z jcowan: The JSON world is standardizing on 'null
2020-05-22T15:20:01Z rudybot: wasamasa: you mean 50 shades of grey?
2020-05-22T15:20:14Z jcowan: so I'd do that (0.2.1?)
2020-05-22T15:20:36Z jcowan: But what if the serialized input contains the symbol nil itself?  Or is that not an issue.
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2020-05-22T15:21:06Z edw: true, false, and nil are all reserved symbols in EDN.
2020-05-22T15:21:16Z aeth: rudybot: why do you pass the turing test?
2020-05-22T15:21:23Z edw: I translate (true, false) to (#t, #f).
2020-05-22T15:21:33Z rudybot: aeth: actually, I /do/ assume that everyone else on irc is either a talented gorilla or highly sophisticated text generation engine attempting to pass the turing test.
2020-05-22T15:21:56Z aeth: so to rudybot we're the bots
2020-05-22T15:22:47Z edw: jcowan: null is an abomination unto God but sure whatever, I give up.
2020-05-22T15:23:28Z jcowan: hmm, in that case 'nil might be a better choice, since null is not reserved
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2020-05-22T15:27:41Z edw: Well, (edn) doesn't return naked symbols or keywords. All EDN syms and kws are namespaced, so I defined SRFI-9 types for them. My goal was to preserve the semantics and allow people to traverse the structure and convert things however they wish. It wold idiotic to go through the hard work of parsing the NS of every sym/kw and then throw that away by converting it to a "ns/name" string that would just need to be parsed again.
2020-05-22T15:28:13Z edw: s/It wold idiotic/It wold be idiotic/
2020-05-22T15:30:03Z edw: Version (eval next) might take an alist/hash of constructors for the various types so folks could do whatever they like without writing traversal code.
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2020-05-22T15:32:57Z edw: Which reminds me, I wrote a zipper in Scheme; I could adapt it to traverse this EDN structure. My ulterior goal is to provide a Clojure reader based syntax for Scheme.
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2020-05-22T16:00:22Z mdhughes: In my JSON parser, I return '() for JSON null.
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2020-05-22T16:01:48Z wasamasa: what do you return for an empty array?
2020-05-22T16:01:57Z Riastradh: scheeeeeeeema
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2020-05-22T16:03:42Z edw: wasamasa: For an empty array I return an empty Scheme vector.
2020-05-22T16:03:43Z zaifir . o 0 (I suppose JSON null could also be a SRFI 189 Nothing; but, if so, what are the Justs?)
2020-05-22T16:03:52Z wasamasa: and empty objects?
2020-05-22T16:04:11Z edw: What is an object? A hash/dictionary?
2020-05-22T16:04:27Z wasamasa: could be, alists are another option
2020-05-22T16:04:46Z edw: I mean in EDN-speak?
2020-05-22T16:04:57Z edw: For hashes I return an empty edn-hash object.
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2020-05-22T16:05:09Z Riastradh: if you have a schema language you can say in the schema what kind of thing you expect to see there so there's no ambiguity about null vs empty array
2020-05-22T16:05:12Z edw: Err, <edn-map> object.
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2020-05-22T16:08:28Z edw: I think the silence was due to politesse, not a lack of understanding, Riastradh.
2020-05-22T16:11:50Z edw: EDN has sequences, arrays, sets, hashes, strings, hashes, tagged literals, (big)floats, (big)ints, (namespaced) keywords, (namespaced) symbols, booleans, and nil. My goal was to unambiguously preserve the types of the decoded objects, not to present them as the most idiomatic Scheme type.
2020-05-22T16:12:05Z Riastradh: application-specific scheeeeeeeeema
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2020-05-22T16:14:33Z zaifir: Riastradh: I'm not finding a Wikipedia page for "schema language".  Do you have a good source?  I take it I should not pull out my Kant.
2020-05-22T16:14:56Z edw: zaifir: Thing XML Schema for Whatever.
2020-05-22T16:14:59Z edw: Think.
2020-05-22T16:16:12Z zaifir: edw: Oh, it's an XML thing.  Thanks.
2020-05-22T16:17:05Z edw: Not exclusively. The bondage crowd has also created JSON schema tools.
2020-05-22T16:17:33Z zaifir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XML_schema is quite the swamp of acronyms and standards.
2020-05-22T16:17:46Z zaifir tries to see the forest for the trees.
2020-05-22T16:18:16Z edw: It's a grammar for compound data, zaifir.
2020-05-22T16:18:34Z jcowan: There are better XML schema languages than W3C's XML Schema.
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2020-05-22T16:19:04Z jcowan: edw: Okay, in that case 'null is best, since it is the only case of a raw symbol being returned.
2020-05-22T16:19:10Z edw: A person is a map. It must have keys for "name". It *may* have keys for "addresses". The addresses data is a sequence of hashes, each with...
2020-05-22T16:20:41Z zaifir: So it's a grammar.
2020-05-22T16:21:13Z zaifir: Describing the external representation of a type system, I guess.
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2020-05-22T16:23:28Z mdhughes: wasamasa: Arrays are vectors. Objects are hashtables.
2020-05-22T16:23:45Z mdhughes: (been AFK dealing with bad computers)
2020-05-22T16:24:00Z edw: zaifir: I was tempted to say an EBNF for data yes.
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2020-05-22T16:24:28Z zaifir: edw: Hey, those are familiar ideas!
2020-05-22T16:24:38Z jcowan: Of course. New names, same ideas.
2020-05-22T16:25:35Z jcowan: In addition to BNF-type grammars, there are also constraint grammars for XML (and possibly JSON):  "assert that foo has either a bar child or a baz child but not both".
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2020-05-22T16:53:29Z Riastradh: zaifir: ughhhh
2020-05-22T16:53:42Z Riastradh: zaifir: I do not recommend taking XML Schema, or XML anything, as an exemplar of, well, anything.
2020-05-22T16:54:21Z edw: Apologies for trotting out a strawman, Riastradh.
2020-05-22T16:54:22Z Riastradh: zaifir: A schema language describes the expected shape of the input.
2020-05-22T16:54:37Z Riastradh: For example, a protocol buffers .proto file is a schema.
2020-05-22T16:55:58Z Riastradh: Here is an example of a schema (which happens to be for an XML data format even though it is spelled in protocol buffersese): https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/picopb/test/disk/disk.proto
2020-05-22T16:56:22Z Riastradh: Or another example: https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/picopb/test/hdaudio/hdaudio.proto
2020-05-22T16:56:51Z Riastradh: Example instances of those schemas: https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/picopb/test/disk/disk.plist, https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/picopb/test/hdaudio/pinconfig.plist
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2020-05-22T16:57:54Z Riastradh: (`proplib' is an Apple-ish XML format for `property lists' which are like json but XMLy and Appley, for hysterical raisins)
2020-05-22T16:58:25Z Riastradh: With a schema, you can do several things:
2020-05-22T16:59:00Z Riastradh: 1. Validate that an input matches the schema, without writing horrible nested chains of conditionals.
2020-05-22T17:01:05Z Riastradh: 2. Get a nice library API out of the data structure, like a collection of record types and accessors in Scheme, or a collection of structs and enums in C with type safety and spelling error detection, so you don't have to worry you spelled the name right when you say (hash-table-ref (hash-table-ref (string->json s) "configuration") "subsecction").
2020-05-22T17:01:10Z Riastradh: Small example use: <https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/picopb/test/disk/disk.c>.
2020-05-22T17:02:27Z Riastradh: 3. Disambiguate representations in the schema so you don't have to ask `uh oh, does () mean an empty array or an empty object?' because the schema says it's an array and will reject the input if it's an object.
2020-05-22T17:04:32Z Riastradh: (This is why the extended protracted continued perpetual debates about canonical choice of mapping between Scheme data and JSON data are so tedious.  If you used a schema language -- doesn't have to be a horrible complicated one like XML Schema -- then it wouldn't need to be a debate in the first place.)
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2020-05-22T17:06:43Z lf94: nooo, rain1 is gone
2020-05-22T17:06:54Z lf94: He knew how to actually use the μkanren ;_;
2020-05-22T17:08:27Z edw: Riastradh: And I would go further: Given the "it's all conses" bias of Scheme code, a schema facility would just as useful on aleady-in-memory objects in that it could document/normalize/enforce things like "this is a mapping", "this is a set", "this is a sequence of something."
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2020-05-22T17:08:59Z Riastradh: (the protobufs schema language isn't bad and could even be adapted to json; maybe I should do that0
2020-05-22T17:09:02Z Riastradh: )
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2020-05-22T17:13:29Z zaifir: Riastradh: Thanks very much for the explanation.
2020-05-22T17:15:26Z zaifir: lf94: Yeah, the Kanrens immediately came to mind.
2020-05-22T17:15:41Z lf94: lol
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2020-05-22T17:17:05Z edw: Riastradh: What if SRFI-9 were extended with predicates? `(define-record-type <disk> (make-disk (tracks is-int?) (sectors is-int?) (manufacturer is-string?) is-disk? ...)`
2020-05-22T17:17:35Z edw: Or `as-int` etc.?
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2020-05-22T17:18:46Z edw: It would be composable, would leverage an existing standard, gets you what you want.
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2020-05-22T17:23:54Z lf94: What's the most resource efficient scheme?
2020-05-22T17:23:58Z lf94: (memory)
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2020-05-22T17:29:27Z edw: lf94: The memory utilization of your code may be more influenced by your choice of data structures than of scheme implementation. E.g. using (homogeneous) vectors vs lists could radically change your memory utilization. A pair is a pair, you sort of can't get around that. Also, it might depend on what types you're trying to store, because different schemes may box certain types and not others.
2020-05-22T17:30:17Z lf94: Yeah I've heard of this before
2020-05-22T17:30:23Z lf94: Ok :)
2020-05-22T17:31:55Z edw: But that said, checkout out gambit (or gerbil) and chez.
2020-05-22T17:32:09Z edw: s/checkout out/check out/
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2020-05-22T17:43:26Z lf94: chez is the current one I'm using :)
2020-05-22T17:43:39Z lf94: (was easiest and fastest to install: apt get chezscheme)
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2020-05-22T18:15:16Z zaifir: edw: One idea for extending R7 records might be a syntax (slot accessor <mutator> <predicate>) where (accessor obj) expands to (lambda (obj) (assume (predicate obj)) (accessor obj))
2020-05-22T18:16:31Z zaifir: That kind of sucks, though, since it seems like the constructor, not the eliminators, should be the place where typechecks occur.
2020-05-22T18:18:19Z zaifir: Maybe (define-record-type-with-predicates <point> (point (x real?) (y real?)) ...), then (point x y) raises an exception if x or y doesn't satisfy real?.
2020-05-22T18:19:01Z zaifir: Too much syntax for a couple of assumptions, IMO.
2020-05-22T18:19:06Z Riastradh: data Point = Point { x :: Double, y :: Double } -- compiler raises an exception if...
2020-05-22T18:20:16Z zaifir: If your Scheme has static types, that's the way to go.
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2020-05-22T18:28:23Z zaifir: I'm trying to `raise' an object that satisfies a specific predicate, in an R7RS-portable way.  Is there a better solution than boxing the object in a `foo-exception' record type?
2020-05-22T18:28:38Z Riastradh: Why wouldn't you do it that way?
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2020-05-22T18:34:58Z zaifir: Unless I export the accessors, the error object becomes opaque.
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2020-05-22T18:36:23Z Riastradh: OK?
2020-05-22T18:37:12Z jcowan: zaifir: What do you mean by a specific predicate?
2020-05-22T18:38:18Z zaifir: jcowan: e.g. in your bytestrings pre-SRFI, we've got `bytestring-error?'.  Objects raised by other procedures in the library are supposed to satisfy this predicate.
2020-05-22T18:39:16Z jcowan: Errors raised by the bytestrings code, not just any old errors.  So yes, create a record type.  If you want to stuff anything interesting into it, you can do that and export the accessors.
2020-05-22T18:39:36Z jcowan: e.g. an invalid character in a string
2020-05-22T18:40:01Z zaifir: That makes sense.
2020-05-22T18:40:39Z zaifir: jcowan: Thanks.
2020-05-22T18:41:17Z zaifir: I was looking into SRFI 35, which provides an extensive interface for this sort of thing.  But it seems that half of the 'major' Schemes don't implement it.
2020-05-22T18:41:23Z lf94: Im surprised scheme doesnt have more type systems
2020-05-22T18:41:34Z lf94: bolted on using some prolog-esque things
2020-05-22T18:42:40Z jcowan: Condition hierarchies are one of the least standardized things, which is why just having predicates is about the best you can do.
2020-05-22T18:43:14Z jcowan: R6RS also has such a hierarchy, but only R6RS Schemes actually use it AFAIK
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2020-05-22T20:33:32Z greyeax: is anyone familiar with dealing with a headers object from the intarweb library?
2020-05-22T20:36:53Z wasamasa: what you tryna do
2020-05-22T20:37:59Z wasamasa: chicken-doc intarweb headers
2020-05-22T20:39:41Z wasamasa: though it's better to scroll to the headers section in the intarweb manual
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2020-05-22T20:40:32Z edw: greyeax: The mode number of users of any Scheme library is one; you're much better off asking a more general question.
2020-05-22T20:40:59Z wasamasa: also, this is something better asked on #chicken
2020-05-22T20:41:08Z greyeax: Oh whoops im in the wrong channel lol
2020-05-22T20:41:14Z wasamasa: what if I told you its author can be found there
2020-05-22T20:41:24Z greyeax: big if true
2020-05-22T20:41:55Z greyeax: tyty
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2020-05-22T21:02:12Z duncanm: hey Riastradh
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2020-05-22T21:24:28Z duncanm: Riastradh: there's a comment in the Homebrew Formula for MIT Scheme that says
2020-05-22T21:24:33Z duncanm:     # The build breaks __HORRIBLY__ with parallel make -- one target will
2020-05-22T21:24:33Z duncanm:     # erase something before another target gets it, so it's easier to change
2020-05-22T21:24:33Z duncanm:     # the environment than to change_make_var, because there are Makefiles
2020-05-22T21:24:33Z duncanm:     # littered everywhere
2020-05-22T21:24:47Z duncanm: is that still true, or is it safe to run `make -jN` nowadays?
2020-05-22T21:28:49Z edw: For what it's worth, the Homebrew bottle of MIT Scheme doesn't even launch on my machine.
2020-05-22T21:29:25Z wasamasa: Riastradh: how do you feel about 4chan having discovered mit-scheme
2020-05-22T21:29:58Z wasamasa: Riastradh: https://gitlab.com/naughtybits/schemebbs contains some patches
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2020-05-22T21:42:13Z duncanm: edw: oh? what happens? which MacOS are you running?
2020-05-22T21:42:26Z edw: The acursed Catalina.
2020-05-22T21:42:31Z duncanm: I just took Riastradh's suggestion and fixed up the 10.1.10 build, I'm about to submit a PR now
2020-05-22T21:42:36Z duncanm: oh, i'm still on Mojave
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2020-05-22T21:48:11Z Riastradh: wasamasa: wacky
2020-05-22T21:49:11Z Riastradh: wasamasa: I see only one -- relative Location header field.  Want to add an automatic test for that case?
2020-05-22T21:50:29Z wasamasa: https://gitlab.com/naughtybits/schemebbs/-/blob/master/deps/httpio.scm
2020-05-22T21:51:39Z wasamasa: or are we in violent agreement
2020-05-22T21:52:54Z Riastradh: OK, there is another bug shown there, not in the form of a patch.
2020-05-22T21:53:01Z wasamasa: yeah :<
2020-05-22T21:53:11Z Riastradh: It looks like master still wants an absolute URI for Location.
2020-05-22T21:53:19Z Riastradh: Dunno about an empty body.
2020-05-22T21:53:29Z wasamasa: the empty body thing smells weird
2020-05-22T21:53:38Z wasamasa: I can't imagine that every single GET request is broken
2020-05-22T21:54:16Z jcowan: THE INTERNET IS BROKEN.  ALL GETS DON'T WORK.
2020-05-22T21:54:52Z duncanm: What is CREF 2.6 in MIT Scheme?
2020-05-22T21:55:10Z Riastradh: duncanm: the cross-referencer, version 2.6
2020-05-22T21:55:15Z duncanm: Riastradh: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/pull/55136
2020-05-22T21:55:32Z duncanm: so in the current prebuilt "bottle" for MIT Scheme 10.1.10, the header prints
2020-05-22T21:55:38Z duncanm:   Release 10.1.10 || Microcode 15.3 || Runtime 15.7 || SF 4.41 || CREF 2.6 || LIAR/svm1 4.118
2020-05-22T21:55:44Z duncanm: in my new build, I see this:
2020-05-22T21:55:50Z duncanm:   Release 10.1.10 || Microcode 15.3 || Runtime 15.7 || SF 4.41 || LIAR/x86-64 4.118
2020-05-22T21:55:54Z Riastradh: CREF is a 1980's idea of what we might now call a `module system'.
2020-05-22T21:56:06Z wasamasa: lol
2020-05-22T21:56:08Z Riastradh: duncanm: Curious.  Dunno why that might be.
2020-05-22T21:56:13Z duncanm: did I miss something, or is it not an issue that CREF went away
2020-05-22T21:56:14Z duncanm: hmm
2020-05-22T21:56:25Z Riastradh: Not much uses it outside MIT Scheme itself, so, *shrug*?
2020-05-22T21:57:11Z duncanm: other than writing things down in a homebrew/ruby way, i just did what Riastradh you suggested: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/pull/55136/files
2020-05-22T21:57:23Z Riastradh: Does (load-option 'cref) work?
2020-05-22T21:57:42Z duncanm: yeah
2020-05-22T21:58:01Z Riastradh: Looks plausible!
2020-05-22T21:58:13Z duncanm: it loads make.com and some other com files and doesn't yell at me
2020-05-22T21:58:40Z duncanm: i can also run Edwin
2020-05-22T22:00:32Z duncanm: dum de dum
2020-05-22T22:00:33Z Riastradh: wasamasa: It is possible that the server side of interpreting GET requests is indeed broken.
2020-05-22T22:00:41Z Riastradh: (I have no idea how much testing on either side this code has gotten.)
2020-05-22T22:00:45Z Riastradh: (read-http-request
2020-05-22T22:00:45Z Riastradh:  (open-input-bytevector
2020-05-22T22:00:45Z Riastradh:   (string->utf8
2020-05-22T22:00:45Z Riastradh:    "GET / HTTP/1.0\r\nHost: example.com\r\nConnection: close\r\n\r\n")))
2020-05-22T22:00:45Z Riastradh: ;The object 3, passed as the second argument to vector-ref, is not in the correct range.
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2020-05-22T22:01:24Z duncanm: whose project is this SchemeBBS?
2020-05-22T22:01:29Z Riastradh: no idea
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2020-05-22T22:05:34Z zaifir: duncanm: It seems to be filling up with spam now that it's been reddited.
2020-05-22T22:05:47Z duncanm: that's unfortunate
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2020-05-22T22:33:44Z friscosam: I think erkin may know about SchemeBBS?
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2020-05-22T22:50:06Z erkin: duncanm: A lone coder who doesn't use IRC.
2020-05-22T22:50:22Z erkin: And yeah, SchemeBBS is under a spam attack right now.
2020-05-22T22:50:31Z erkin: Which is good because it's reversible and serves as a stress test.
2020-05-22T22:50:41Z erkin: So far it's handling it well.
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2020-05-22T22:52:51Z erkin: Riastradh: httpio.scm used to be a patch (you can check the commit history) until the author decided to simply load the modified version.
2020-05-22T22:53:14Z erkin: They made some remarks about wanting to switch to v10.1 but didn't consider it stable enough.
2020-05-22T22:56:12Z duncanm: I wonder what this means
2020-05-22T22:56:17Z duncanm: Files were found with references to the Homebrew shims directory.
2020-05-22T22:56:17Z duncanm:     The offending files are:
2020-05-22T22:56:17Z duncanm:       lib/mit-scheme-x86-64/runtime.com
2020-05-22T22:56:17Z duncanm:       lib/mit-scheme-x86-64/all.com
2020-05-22T22:56:52Z duncanm: maybe i need to clean them up to make homebrew happy?
2020-05-22T22:58:46Z erkin: Not sure if it's the reason but I believe bands save absolute paths to libraries.
2020-05-22T22:59:12Z erkin: I had trouble moving an MIT Scheme install from the configuration prefix it was built for.
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2020-05-22T23:16:57Z edw: Somewhat influenced by the ealier conversation about EDN, JSON, and schemas, I wrote an extebsible iterators library using generic functions: <https://gist.github.com/edw/42205405742ec50e8de783563ef6f477>
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2020-05-23T01:08:46Z foof`: edw: (chibi parse) signals an error on an invalid parse
2020-05-23T01:09:13Z foof`: it would return an empty match only if your rules allow for an empty match
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2020-05-23T01:10:48Z foof`: ... which you should not allow to begin with but could check if the match advanced the string position
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2020-05-23T03:19:02Z lockywolf: How should I cite mit-scheme in a paper?
2020-05-23T03:19:19Z lockywolf: Taylor Campbell et al.?
2020-05-23T03:20:16Z Riastradh: Chris Hanson is a more appropriate first author unless you religiously adhere to lexicographic ordering of author names.
2020-05-23T03:21:04Z Riastradh: % git log --oneline --author cph | wc -l
2020-05-23T03:21:04Z Riastradh:    11210
2020-05-23T03:21:04Z Riastradh: % git log --oneline --author campbell | wc -l
2020-05-23T03:21:04Z Riastradh:     1608
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2020-05-23T04:28:05Z greyeax: Does a procedure need to have all it's arguments filled?
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2020-05-23T06:17:34Z wasamasa: greyeax: all but the optional stuff
2020-05-23T06:17:55Z wasamasa: greyeax: you can use . in vanilla scheme to indicate a rest argument
2020-05-23T06:18:03Z wasamasa: greyeax: which you can use for optional arguments
2020-05-23T06:18:13Z wasamasa: greyeax: others have special extensions to make this more convenient
2020-05-23T06:18:30Z wasamasa: like DSSSL
2020-05-23T06:18:48Z greyeax: ahh
2020-05-23T06:18:50Z greyeax: tyty
2020-05-23T06:19:35Z wasamasa: there's even a special case for accepting any amount of arguments, (lambda x ...)
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2020-05-23T08:49:10Z amirouche: lockywolf_: indeed, scheme workshop is looking for contributors. Do you plan to submit something?
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2020-05-23T08:49:56Z lockywolf_: amirouche, already did
2020-05-23T08:50:09Z amirouche: lockywolf_: what is it about?
2020-05-23T08:50:21Z lockywolf_: i can send you a preprint
2020-05-23T08:50:28Z amirouche: yes :)
2020-05-23T08:50:35Z lockywolf_: where to?
2020-05-23T08:50:48Z amirouche: see pm
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2020-05-23T08:59:05Z lockywolf_: Does anyone here have an arXiv.org endorsement right for the cs.CY class?
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2020-05-23T12:58:44Z edw: foof`: I was using PARSE, which returns #f on parse failure. I misspoke about the procedure '() vs #f, however. I subsequently -- v0.2.0 of (edn) -- switched to CALL-WITH-PARSE, and now return the error information provided in the failure continuation.
2020-05-23T12:59:49Z edw: foof`: I misspoke about the procedure *returning* '() vs #f. (Edit)
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2020-05-23T14:53:44Z Riastradh: https://twitter.com/TheOfficialACM/status/1263844592874651648
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2020-05-23T15:35:14Z wasamasa: one day scheme will become a multimillion dollar industry and then you won't have a laugh
2020-05-23T15:36:09Z wasamasa: speaking of which, is that one newsgroup troll still at it, asking for competitive big data processing
2020-05-23T15:37:23Z wasamasa: doesn't seem so
2020-05-23T15:37:43Z Riastradh: ...is there still a newsgroup?
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2020-05-23T15:39:01Z wasamasa: comp.lang.scheme
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2020-05-23T15:57:53Z aeth: wasamasa: it already is, it's called JavaScript ;-)
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2020-05-23T16:21:17Z edw: Is there a blandest, more boring-est, cruft-free *nix that would be a good choice for a headless box for Scheme work? Being able to run Docker images would be nice. My tastes skew toward BSDs.
2020-05-23T16:22:29Z wasamasa: BSD, docker, does not compute
2020-05-23T16:22:34Z Riastradh: Doesn't support docker but I run NetBSD on my own systems.
2020-05-23T16:22:36Z zaifir: edw: Alpine.
2020-05-23T16:23:32Z edw: I undersmsmsmsmmsmsmmmmsmsmmsms
2020-05-23T16:23:40Z Riastradh: hi edw's cat
2020-05-23T16:24:37Z zaifir: edw: https://alpinelinux.org/  musl doesn't always play nice with GNU stuff, but that was never a problem in the headless system I ran it on.
2020-05-23T16:25:30Z zaifir: (But musl is about as beautiful as a libc is going to get.)
2020-05-23T16:27:45Z dTal: I heard it had worse performance than glibc on average
2020-05-23T16:28:30Z edw licks paws.
2020-05-23T16:29:02Z zaifir: dTal: Source?
2020-05-23T16:29:14Z dTal: the google machine
2020-05-23T16:29:20Z dTal: I dunno
2020-05-23T16:29:24Z dTal: do you disagree?
2020-05-23T16:29:51Z edw: zaifir:
2020-05-23T16:29:58Z zaifir: I'm not disagreeing.  I'd like to read what tests were run.
2020-05-23T16:30:35Z zaifir: musl-libc was originally aimed at embedded systems, so it should be pretty fast.  It's certainly smaller than glibc, at least.
2020-05-23T16:30:55Z edw: Could you tell me more about not playing nice with GNU stuff? Also, does it use systemd etc? (I hope not.)
2020-05-23T16:31:24Z zaifir: No systemd; I think it's OpenRC by default.
2020-05-23T16:32:51Z edw: Merci, zaifir.
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2020-05-23T16:33:00Z zaifir: Emacs has always worked, coreutils, etc. have always worked.
2020-05-23T16:33:23Z zaifir: It seems like most GNU stuff works, now, huh.  They even offer a set of GNOME packages, which is weird, since I thought GNOME had a hard systemd dep now.
2020-05-23T16:34:46Z zaifir: IME having a non-glib libc only *really* sucks when you're trying to run proprietary blobs.
2020-05-23T16:35:31Z edw: zaifir: Ah, well that's not going to happen. If it's proprietary, it's mine, so I can easily re-compile/link.
2020-05-23T16:36:36Z zaifir: edw: If it's proprietary and yours, you can hopefully change the license, which I hope you do.
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2020-05-23T16:38:43Z dTal: zaifir: it's just a broad consensus
2020-05-23T16:38:52Z dTal: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19861921
2020-05-23T16:39:05Z dTal: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-overlook-the-fact-that-musl-is-slower-than-glibc-when-making-a-case-for-Alpine-Linux-docker-images
2020-05-23T16:39:07Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/TGsLT3xpCA
2020-05-23T16:40:24Z dTal: https://www.reddit.com/r/voidlinux/comments/eqouaj/musl_vs_glibc_performance/
2020-05-23T16:40:42Z zaifir: dTal: The only actual comparison in those links that I can find suggests that musl isn't slower.
2020-05-23T16:41:20Z zaifir: dTal: https://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html
2020-05-23T16:42:03Z zaifir: Admittedly, that's by Rich Felker, the musl author.  Serious conflict of interest.
2020-05-23T16:42:43Z dTal: I'm looking at that and most of the musl numbers seem lrger than the glibc numbers
2020-05-23T16:42:53Z dTal: (under the "Performance comparison" section)
2020-05-23T16:43:23Z dTal: but anyway, I don't have a scientific reason for thinking this
2020-05-23T16:43:34Z dTal: I'm not invested in it at all
2020-05-23T16:43:46Z zaifir: Yes.
2020-05-23T16:43:57Z dTal: but I do tend to trust "received wisdom" of this sort
2020-05-23T16:44:19Z zaifir: I don't, when there are no actual tests behind it.
2020-05-23T16:45:40Z zaifir: Purely anecdotally, I've found (in 5 years of use) musl to be indistinguishable from glibc, speed-wise.
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2020-05-23T17:00:14Z edw: zaifir: Thanks for the religious pamphlet. I'll definitely read it over closely.
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2020-05-23T17:03:55Z zaifir: edw: I don't recall exhorting anyone to follow a GNU^H^H^H new religious movement.
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2020-05-23T17:05:32Z edw: Here in the real world we often have to do unspeakable things -- and keep some code proprietary.
2020-05-23T17:08:37Z Riastradh: Here in the real world, we don't have to pretend that the `real world' implies intellectual dishonesty about one's computing...
2020-05-23T17:08:52Z zaifir: edw: It's a choice to do those things.  I hope you see that, at the very least, those choices make life harder for us hackers.
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2020-05-23T17:09:22Z Riastradh: (but if you like to make yourself financially dependent on intellectual dishonesty, who am I to criticize?)
2020-05-23T17:09:45Z zaifir: Indeed.
2020-05-23T17:10:52Z edw: You're still working at Microsoft, right, Riastradh? Since, when was that, March 32, 2011?
2020-05-23T17:11:13Z Riastradh: heh
2020-05-23T17:11:45Z Riastradh: Amazed anyone remembers that!
2020-05-23T17:12:03Z edw: You've been a thorn in my side for fifteen years, Riastradh!
2020-05-23T17:12:20Z Riastradh: (sometimes even I forget that I wrote that post)
2020-05-23T17:13:32Z mdhughes: I don't have any interest in whether I make life hard or easy for "h4xx04z". Code I expect to make money from is proprietary. Code that's generally useful to professional programmers gets a BSD license.
2020-05-23T17:13:49Z edw: I'm unfamiliar with the line of reasoning that leads to the conclusion that any line of code not released under a RMS-tolerated license constitutes living a life of intellectual dishonesty.
2020-05-23T17:14:11Z zaifir: mdhughes: Of course, by "hackers", I meant people like us, who enjoy programming and learning about things.
2020-05-23T17:14:48Z mdhughes: And I appreciate it when others do the same, but I'm not anyone's master, they can do as they please. If it's not under BSD, MIT, or the like, it's of no use to me.
2020-05-23T17:15:34Z Riastradh: I'm just calling proprietary software intellectually dishonest -- if it does what you say it does then the intellectually honest thing is to expose it to scrutiny and modification.  Not saying anything else about life choices!
2020-05-23T17:15:48Z mdhughes: I liked the term "hacker" when I was 15-20, but since the '90s it's had a pejorative meaning and that's not likely to change.
2020-05-23T17:16:55Z zaifir: Know thy audience, I suppose.
2020-05-23T17:17:30Z mdhughes: The behavior of "hacker" "news" users hasn't improved matters.
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2020-05-23T17:18:47Z zaifir: The really dangerous thing, I think, is the "I have no choice, I have to make it proprietary" thing.  It seems self-destructive to deny making choices, or having the agency to make different choices.
2020-05-23T17:19:26Z edw: Free software zealots (don't mean that in a perjorative way, natch) seem to share the same obsession with code as a thing with value as CFOs and other non-technical people I've had to deal with. Any code that's every been written can be re-written in, let's say, one tenth the time. The code is not the thing.
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2020-05-23T17:20:02Z mdhughes: People who work for someone else generally don't have a choice, their employer owns their work-for-hire and they own a paycheck.
2020-05-23T17:20:44Z zaifir: They choose to work for that employer, then.
2020-05-23T17:20:55Z edw: I don't want to make this personal zaifir, but how do you pay for food and shelter?
2020-05-23T17:21:21Z Riastradh: For the past decade or so I've paid for food and shelter by working on free software exclusively.
2020-05-23T17:21:47Z mdhughes: Choosing between starving but singing "come on share the software", or sipping lattes and eating sushi while selling some line-of-business code to a corp…
2020-05-23T17:22:02Z zaifir: edw: Not by writing proprietary software.
2020-05-23T17:22:04Z mdhughes: I've always much preferred the latter.
2020-05-23T17:22:25Z zaifir: Ah, there's that insulting condescension.
2020-05-23T17:22:46Z edw: zaifir: OK, but are you added oft-requested features to Emacs or GCC or whatever for cash? Are you programming for a living?
2020-05-23T17:22:51Z mdhughes: Right now I have the luxury to do what I want, so I write code and sometimes release it as BSD, sometimes work on commercial software.
2020-05-23T17:24:33Z mdhughes: Who am I being condescending to? The Comrades marching to their free software song, or the stereotype of a bourgeois programmer?
2020-05-23T17:24:41Z Riastradh: (FYI, mdhughes is probably ignoring me, and so carrying on as if this is a one-sided conversation between people who have successfully made money and a poor confused idealist.)
2020-05-23T17:25:16Z zaifir: edw: I'm saying that people have a choice in the matter, and that we're intelligent enough to know that closed-source software is harmful.  Thus, we can make better choices.
2020-05-23T17:25:24Z Riastradh: s/one-sided/unbalanced/1
2020-05-23T17:25:31Z edw: zaifir: There are two kinds of free software, or at least there were in 1992, when I started college. The RMS toe-cheese eaters who buy the contents of his manifesto, and the generally-BSD-leaning people who see themselves as professionals who live in "the real world" (yes, eye-rolls) who contribute to free software out of a combination of a professional responsibility to "give back" via pro bono work and a general love of building
2020-05-23T17:25:31Z edw: things.
2020-05-23T17:25:44Z mdhughes: zaifir: Closed-source is not harmful. You are not "having your freedoms stolen" by someone else not giving you their source.
2020-05-23T17:26:01Z zaifir: edw: Choosing otherwise is also a choice.  It just seems to me to be very painful to say "I have no choice, the real world demands..."
2020-05-23T17:26:49Z zaifir: mdhughes: I'd call it harmful when people must work with systems every day which they aren't allowed to understand.  But this is a long digression already.
2020-05-23T17:26:56Z zaifir: Ahem, "must".
2020-05-23T17:27:01Z edw: zaifir: No, your mind can't comprehend that I don't think it's evil and that I'm willingly doing evil because I really want to drink my expensive coffee drinks.
2020-05-23T17:27:20Z Riastradh: edw: `your mind can't comprehend' is not nice
2020-05-23T17:27:21Z zaifir: Hmm, I never called anything "evil".
2020-05-23T17:27:29Z Riastradh: and not accurate, and not helpful at conveying any relevant point.
2020-05-23T17:27:48Z mdhughes: You are under no obligation to use any closed-source program. There's functional (barely) Linux systems where you can read all the code, much good it does you.
2020-05-23T17:28:00Z edw: Good point, Riastradh. Let me rephrase:
2020-05-23T17:28:44Z edw: zaifir: I refuse to concede that proprietary software is bad. Or that writing it constitutes morally comprimizing oneself.
2020-05-23T17:29:23Z mdhughes: Over here in latte-sipping land, I'm frustrated enough at the half-open-source Mac that I'll be mostly BSD this year, but also likely boot camping all-closed-source Windows for games.
2020-05-23T17:29:56Z zaifir: edw: OK.  I do claim that it's harmful, but I don't think writing it is "morally compromising".  It's denying yourself the choice that I was saying was harmful.
2020-05-23T17:30:53Z jcowan: Blessed are the cheesemakers, for without them, where would the cheese-eaters be?
2020-05-23T17:31:32Z edw: zaifir: Your claim is a baseless assertion. Which is fine with me. But don't think that it has the status of veriable moral truth.
2020-05-23T17:31:41Z edw: s/veriable/verifiable/
2020-05-23T17:31:41Z mdhughes: Life of jcowan is a weird movie.
2020-05-23T17:31:48Z jcowan: I think *using* closed-source software tends to be harmful, not in every case of course.
2020-05-23T17:32:36Z zaifir: edw: I certainly agree.  I really hope I haven't given the impression that I was pronouncing moral truths.
2020-05-23T17:32:47Z jcowan: mdhughes: There's a lot of miscellaneous stuff in this brain, and sometimes it collides.  I caught sight of "toe cheese-eaters" above, and it mixed with an email I got about someone having been given the complete Monty Python as a 40tine present.
2020-05-23T17:33:35Z jcowan: s/someone/the email's author
2020-05-23T17:33:41Z Riastradh: edw: One should always be suspicious of one's financial dependencies and their moral implications.
2020-05-23T17:34:04Z mdhughes: I've never been harmed by using closed-source software as much as I was by using Linux.
2020-05-23T17:34:25Z mdhughes: Turns out sufficiently-bad code can be written open-source just fine.
2020-05-23T17:34:40Z Riastradh: I suggest `I am financially dependent on X and therefore you should take my position on X with a grain of salt' is a better approach than `I am definitely not morally compromised by being financially dependent on X.'
2020-05-23T17:34:58Z edw: Riastradh: Natch. You don't know how hard I tried to get an employee of mine to *not* buy a car. I outlined that horrible chain of obligation and commitment that would ensue. The thing was, he *wanted* all o that horrible obligation and commitment.
2020-05-23T17:36:50Z edw: I'm actually not dependent on being able to trade lines of code for dollars. I simply abhor moralizing.
2020-05-23T17:37:05Z Riastradh: Why do you abhor moralizing?
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2020-05-23T17:39:58Z zaifir: edw: Since this whole michigas started with my comment, I hope I can make it clear that I didn't hand down any moral truths.
2020-05-23T17:40:47Z edw: For all sorts of reasons. But, mostly, as I've gotten older, I tend to give people credit for simply recognizing there are moral/ethical dimensions to a choice, regardless of what they wind up doing. Because life is complicated and second-guessing people's choices is almost always an act of arrogance.
2020-05-23T17:40:52Z zaifir: edw: It's possible to say that you think there are less harmful choices without throwing around terms like "good" and "evil".
2020-05-23T17:42:51Z edw: zaifir: I think you're going to find that the Realists take things on a case-by-case basis. Open source boot ROMs? Probably a good idea. Proprietary Linux kernels in a TiVo? Meh who cares?
2020-05-23T17:43:47Z zaifir: Again, "realism" usually seems to be a rhetorical position, not a philosophy.
2020-05-23T17:43:51Z edw: There is not over-arching single issue IMO that makes something good/helpful or bad/harmful.
2020-05-23T17:43:58Z edw: zaifir: Actually it's not.
2020-05-23T17:44:41Z Riastradh: edw: A proprietary kernel in a device makes it hard to inspect what the device is doing, fix the device if it breaks, reuse the hardware if the vendor decides to stop supporting it, &c.
2020-05-23T17:45:23Z dTal: even if all of GNU/Linux were closed source I would still use it in preference over Windows
2020-05-23T17:45:28Z edw: Riastradh: I am aware of the DIY/right-to-repair POV.
2020-05-23T17:45:41Z Riastradh: edw: So you know who cares, then!
2020-05-23T17:46:03Z edw: Yes, but "I care about X" doesn't mean "X is important."
2020-05-23T17:46:07Z zaifir: Currently a very large number of people.
2020-05-23T17:46:18Z Riastradh: edw: You said: `Meh who cares?'.
2020-05-23T17:46:37Z edw: Ah, and by that I meant, "Meh whatever."
2020-05-23T17:47:24Z edw: Meanwhile, yes, I could be loading Alpie Linux on my old TiVo from 2001.
2020-05-23T17:47:31Z Riastradh: Maybe rhetorical devices like that aren't very effective if you actually know who cares and the person you're talking to knows who cares and it has substantial impact on electronics waste, sustainability, and mass surveillance!
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2020-05-23T17:48:04Z edw: Why not just outlaw TiVos and other defined-by-you frivolous technologies?
2020-05-23T17:48:19Z Riastradh: What did I call frivolous?
2020-05-23T17:48:33Z edw: I'm calling TiVos frivolous.
2020-05-23T17:48:52Z edw: I mean, who can justify a DVR's existence?
2020-05-23T17:49:09Z zaifir laughs.
2020-05-23T17:49:52Z edw: But at the same time, Apple apparently has a pretty sweet device disposal tihng going yet its tech is IP-protected out the buttocks.
2020-05-23T17:50:09Z Riastradh: Generally government legislation of frivolity does not lead to outcomes that pretty much anyone wants!
2020-05-23T17:50:51Z edw: That's where I was going with that.
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2020-05-23T17:52:26Z Riastradh: But there's a wide range between what is morally objectionable or intellectually dishonest, and what is worthwhile applying the coercive power of government legislation to.
2020-05-23T17:52:38Z edw: But to my "meh whatever" comment, Riastradh, my precise point was that I take these issues as they come, based on a broad range of interests and constraints, and my internal moral evaluator emitted a dont-care output.
2020-05-23T17:57:04Z edw: All I'd like is to keep the detente on #scheme that typically exists between the Moralists and the Realists. Civilization depends on it.
2020-05-23T17:57:09Z Riastradh: How to address morally objectionable things is another matter!  Certainly if I went around on the street telling people that proprietary software is intellectually dishonest, that wouldn't accomplish much but get me a large catalogue of weird looks, and as you say, second-guessing people's choices can be an act of arrogance.
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2020-05-23T17:58:47Z Riastradh: But where else can one discuss morality but in a frank conversation between mutually respecting parties?  Do you reject the premise that morality, the moral implications of one's choices, or the moral blindness of one's financial dependencies, is discussable?
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2020-05-23T18:00:49Z edw: I take to heart your evocation of Upton Sinclair's "It's difficult to get a man to understand something..." comment, but good faith requires that we assume people aren't simply arguing their interests. The comments about the untrustworthiness of the musl maintainer's benchmarks got me in a foul mood.
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2020-05-23T18:01:45Z Riastradh: I think it is a much healthier approach to lay out `here are my conflicts of interest; interpret them how you will', than to say `I am smart and awesome enough to be unaffected by my conflicts of interest, so just ignore them!'.
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2020-05-23T18:04:01Z Riastradh: To my mind, zaifir was not saying that Rich Felker is a dishonest hack; rather that there is an obvious source of bias there and we should bear that in mind when assessing the table, with no disrespect for Rich Felker, who even made much the same acknowledgment --
2020-05-23T18:04:17Z Riastradh: `I have tried to be fair and objective, but as I am the author of musl, that may have influenced my choice of which aspects to compare.'
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2020-05-23T18:08:03Z edw: The competing truth to Felker's presumably accurate numbers is almost certainly not to be found in his numbers, but in the GNU folks having a different set of values. One person's thirty years of legacy bloat is another's support for a jaw dropping number of platforms.
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2020-05-23T18:09:35Z edw: Cynics IMO often get causation wrong. "You work in a slaughterhouse so you obviously need to deny that killing animals for food is wrong." OR: "I don't mind killing animals, so that's why I work in a slaughterhouse."
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2020-05-23T18:10:54Z edw: Do we all sleepwalk through life to some extent? Almost certainly.
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2020-05-23T18:37:13Z zaifir: Yeah, "serious conflict of interest" was an indelicate way to put it.  I didn't mean any disrespect to Felker, who writes very nice C and is generally awesome.
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2020-05-23T19:03:16Z amirouche: anyone noticed that chibi's make install yields an error about time.so?
2020-05-23T19:03:22Z amirouche: and knows a fix?
2020-05-23T19:03:27Z amirouche: chibi's master
2020-05-23T19:03:49Z Riastradh: Can you be more specific?
2020-05-23T19:04:01Z amirouche: oh no, it is only in my branch. Sorry for the noise.
2020-05-23T19:04:04Z Riastradh: Specify exactly what you typed, and exactly what you expected to see, and exactly what the transcript of what you actually saw was?
2020-05-23T19:04:07Z Riastradh: OK
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2020-05-23T19:36:39Z Riastradh: rain1: Someone was looking for you but I forgot who!
2020-05-23T19:38:31Z rain1: hey
2020-05-23T19:38:33Z rain1: whom
2020-05-23T19:38:37Z rain1: maybe lf94
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2020-05-23T19:48:26Z Boarders_: does scheme ever give any meaning to a dot pattern in a definition of a function?
2020-05-23T19:48:42Z Boarders_: and more general if I have (define args body) then is args always a list of symbols or can it be something else?
2020-05-23T19:50:09Z Boarders_: well args can also just be a symbol but apart from that
2020-05-23T19:55:43Z jcowan: Yes.  (define (foo a . b)) binds a to the first argument and b to a list of any additional arguments.  It's how Scheme does that.
2020-05-23T19:56:04Z jcowan: in lambda form that's (lambda (a . b) ...)
2020-05-23T20:01:48Z mdhughes: Also, (define foo (case-lambda [() ...] [(a) ...] [(a b) ...])) lets you match on specific number of arguments, which is very often easier than parsing a list of args for options.
2020-05-23T20:02:33Z Boarders_: ah I see, so it is a convenient way to write multi-arity lambdass?
2020-05-23T20:04:19Z mdhughes: Yeah, like pattern matching in other languages. You can't match a symbol/keyword that way, so those still need a loop over args or impl-specific keyword hacks, but for a couple optional args it's nice.
2020-05-23T20:05:52Z Boarders_: I am writing my own implementation of scheme (just for a bit of fun because I have been reading lisp in small pieces). Is there a generally accepted view on what a core scheme AST should look like?
2020-05-23T20:06:27Z Boarders_: so far I have tried to separate out raw syntactic S-expressions from something that might include autoquoted primitives, lambdas etc
2020-05-23T20:06:42Z Boarders_: but I didn't find much agreement on what that AST should look like in the sources I looked at
2020-05-23T20:07:33Z Boarders_: does quote just make it fundamentally difficult to describe a core caluclus or am I looking in the wrong places
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2020-05-23T21:04:02Z jcowan: Boarders_: Procedure calls, variables, literals, if, lambda, set!, quote are the bare minimum.  In practice define is also necessary.  Include and cond-expand are also often primitive, but you can do without them.
2020-05-23T21:04:17Z jcowan: Quote is really just another kind of literal.
2020-05-23T21:06:38Z Boarders_: I see, is there anything written with a grammar describing that structure and how everything desugars to it?
2020-05-23T21:07:12Z Boarders_: Also, don't you need some form of pair former?
2020-05-23T21:07:22Z wasamasa: cons?
2020-05-23T21:07:32Z Boarders_: yes
2020-05-23T21:07:56Z wasamasa: I'm sure that can be turned into a bunch of lambdas :D
2020-05-23T21:08:09Z wasamasa: not terribly efficient, mind you
2020-05-23T21:09:08Z erkin: You can implement lists, numbers, bools and conditionals, everything in lambdas.
2020-05-23T21:09:20Z erkin: But you probably shouldn't.
2020-05-23T21:09:50Z Boarders_: yeah I know about how to church encode
2020-05-23T21:10:05Z Boarders_: I just wouldn't describe that as an AST for scheme since the list seems pretty much crucial
2020-05-23T21:10:19Z Boarders_: or pairing seems crucial if you want
2020-05-23T21:10:37Z jcowan: Cons is a procedure call like any other.  I was describing the syntax of Scheme, not its library of procedures and macros.
2020-05-23T21:11:52Z Boarders_: fair enough, I would just expect something like
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2020-05-23T21:13:50Z wasamasa: there's the occasional scheme document explaining how to desugar things, but nothing comprehensive
2020-05-23T21:14:09Z wasamasa: there's also this CL document: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2020-05-23T21:16:05Z wasamasa: maybe one of the pure scheme implementations could help
2020-05-23T21:17:13Z wasamasa: like rapid or grass
2020-05-23T21:23:59Z Boarders_: (apply + '(1 2 3)) to desugar in a rich AST to something like: (app (lambda (body-of-apply)) (primOp +) (quote (list (lit 1) (lit 2) (lit 3))
2020-05-23T21:24:05Z Boarders_: is that completely misguided?
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2020-05-23T21:27:44Z wasamasa: it's a simplification of what's actually going on
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2020-05-23T21:30:29Z wasamasa: (list (intern "apply") (intern "+") (list (intern "quote") (list 1 2 3)))
2020-05-23T21:31:33Z wasamasa: bonus: this evaluates in elisp
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2020-05-23T21:35:11Z jcowan: Also look at the formal syntax and semantics in R[567]RS.
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2020-05-23T21:42:49Z Boarders_: wasamasa: what is the simplification, sorry?
2020-05-23T21:42:57Z Boarders_: thanks for the ref jcowan
2020-05-23T21:43:26Z wasamasa: you skip the apply and quote parts
2020-05-23T21:44:03Z jcowan: There is no real difference between quote and lit, but adding apply means you get some leverage over procedure calls, which is sometimes useful.
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2020-05-23T21:50:51Z Boarders_: thanks for the help!
2020-05-23T21:51:20Z Boarders_: In my AST I try to use a subtype of autoquoted things so that is what lit is meant to be but that is just because I find it conceptually pleasant
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2020-05-23T22:52:47Z duncanm: dum de dum
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2020-05-23T22:54:43Z duncanm: jcowan: i was doing some reading, do you know if the CommonLoops paper is the first place where Generic Functions were introduced?
2020-05-23T22:55:17Z jcowan: That seems plausible, but antedating is haaaard.
2020-05-23T22:55:19Z duncanm: Ahh, it's the New Flavors paper
2020-05-23T22:55:29Z jcowan: Have you searched the paper's references yet?
2020-05-23T22:56:27Z duncanm: I was trying to find out when CALL-NEXT-METHOD was invented
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2020-05-24T00:04:45Z catchme: Is there any non-recursive GC implementation for scheme when reallocating objects?
2020-05-24T00:05:05Z Riastradh: ...What does that mean/
2020-05-24T00:05:07Z Riastradh: ?
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2020-05-24T00:06:38Z catchme: I am facing stack over flow when calling my gc function, I used TCO, but the stack depth remains a problem
2020-05-24T00:06:53Z Riastradh: Aha!
2020-05-24T00:06:57Z Riastradh: What kind of GC algorithm are you using?
2020-05-24T00:07:31Z catchme: copying gc
2020-05-24T00:07:40Z Riastradh: Typically you use the storage for the objects in the heap as a stack or queue data structure itself.
2020-05-24T00:08:10Z Riastradh: For example, in the Cheney-style stop & copy GC, where you are tracing objects from the oldspace and copying them into the newspace,
2020-05-24T00:09:01Z Riastradh: you can use the newspace itself as a queue of pointers to objects that still need to be copied (and for any objects that have already been copied, leave a forwarding pointer to the newspace in their oldspace storage).
2020-05-24T00:10:09Z Riastradh: In particular, you start by copying the object that the roots point to, and the newspace will look like:
2020-05-24T00:10:29Z Riastradh: [ptr to oldspace, ptr to oldspace, ptr to oldspace, ... | free]
2020-05-24T00:10:53Z Riastradh: So you start at the beginning and for each pointer to oldspace, you copy that pointer over; then the newspace will look like:
2020-05-24T00:11:05Z Riastradh: [ptr to newspace, ptr to newspace | ptr to oldspace, ptr to oldspace | free]
2020-05-24T00:12:41Z Riastradh: Eventually, when there are no more pointers to oldspace in the newspace -- when the left vertical bar catches up with the right vertical bar in that `diagram' -- you're done.
2020-05-24T00:14:44Z catchme: but in converting ptr from old to new space, How would I avoid recursion with symbols and cons structures ?
2020-05-24T00:16:22Z Riastradh: Suppose you have a pointer #x123abcd4 to a cons in oldspace.  You want to get a newspace pointer that represents the same cons.
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2020-05-24T00:17:00Z Riastradh: You first examine the object at address #x123abcd4 to see if there's a forwarding address there (traditionally called a `broken heart'): if there is, just return the forwarding address.
2020-05-24T00:17:16Z Riastradh: (Typically you'll use a different type tag for forwarding addresses and non-forwarding addresses.)
2020-05-24T00:18:25Z catchme: case kList: {
2020-05-24T00:18:25Z catchme:         LispObject a, d, nc, *pcdr;
2020-05-24T00:18:26Z catchme:         bool forwarded_p = false;
2020-05-24T00:18:26Z catchme:         // iterative implementation allows arbitrarily long cons chains
2020-05-24T00:18:26Z catchme:         pcdr = &o_new;
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2020-05-24T00:18:34Z Riastradh: If there's no forwarding address, then you copy the contents of #x123abcd4 (say, copy the object at #x123abcd4, where the car lives, and the object at #x123abcd8, where the cdr lives) to the beginning of the free space in the heap.
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2020-05-24T00:18:45Z Riastradh: in the newspace, that is.
2020-05-24T00:19:00Z Riastradh: And you store the pointer to the beginning of the free space in the newspace at #x123abcd4 as a forwarding address, and return it.
2020-05-24T00:19:06Z Riastradh: Critically, you don't do recursion in this step!
2020-05-24T00:19:35Z catchme: LISP_CONS_CAR(nc) = LispGcRelocate(a); produces recursion https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/X15t6sDQ/
2020-05-24T00:20:27Z Riastradh: Instead, you take whatever was in the oldspace -- even if it is pointers into the oldspace! -- and copy it over into the newspace.
2020-05-24T00:21:38Z Riastradh: Overall the loop will look something like this:  while (newspace_scan < newspace_free) { *newspace_scan = relocate(*newspace_scan); newspace_scan++; }
2020-05-24T00:23:11Z Riastradh: relocate itself is nonrecursive -- something like:  relocate(oobj) { if (!pointer(oobj)) return oobj; else if ((nobj = forwarded(*oobj)) != NULL) return nobj; else { nobj = newspace_free; newspace_free += 2 /* or whatever the size is */; CAR(nobj) = CAR(oobj); CDR(nobj) = CDR(oobj); return nobj; }
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2020-05-24T00:25:48Z catchme: Shouldn't `CAR(nobj) = relocate(CAR(oobj))`?
2020-05-24T00:25:55Z Riastradh: (er, maybe also set  oobj[0] = make_forward(nobj)  or something)
2020-05-24T00:26:01Z Riastradh: catchme: No!
2020-05-24T00:26:19Z Riastradh: Can you figure out why that's not necessary?
2020-05-24T00:27:48Z catchme: given that nobj is a pointer and I copied it to newspace -> I think it have to be updated! or I am missing your key idea
2020-05-24T00:28:14Z Riastradh: It will be updated -- just not at this point!
2020-05-24T00:29:07Z catchme: so how would that eliminate recursion?
2020-05-24T00:29:52Z Riastradh: Well, there is no recursion (except insofar as one might treat a while loop as a form of recursion).
2020-05-24T00:30:17Z Riastradh: One way to look at it is that this does a breadth-first traversal of the live objects in the heap.
2020-05-24T00:32:42Z Riastradh: (There's also a way to do a depth-first traversal using the objects in the oldspace as storage for a recursion stack (a Clark-style GC), but I've only ever seen one implementation of it and it was abandoned for a Cheney-style GC later.)
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2020-05-24T00:34:45Z catchme: So I have a stack to store car/cdr parent, it would help if you have an  implementation of that
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2020-05-24T00:59:23Z Riastradh: catchme: With a Cheney-style breadth-first traversal, which is easier to implement, it's not actually a (lifo) stack -- it's using the newspace itself as a (fifo) queue.
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2020-05-24T01:47:10Z catchme: Riastradh: Aha! I got it
2020-05-24T01:47:10Z catchme: Thanks a bunch
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2020-05-24T05:45:48Z lockywolf: amirouche, any feedback on the report?
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2020-05-24T07:43:14Z tohoyn: I have found two bug candidates in the reference implementation of SRFI-72. anybody who can discuss this?
2020-05-24T07:43:27Z tohoyn:  I'm unable to mail to the srfi-72 mailing list.
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2020-05-24T08:44:36Z amirouche: lockywolf: it is interesting, there is a typo `ides` instead of `ideas`
2020-05-24T08:44:46Z amirouche: not much feedback in fact.
2020-05-24T08:45:22Z amirouche: lockywolf: I have a question: can you write a similar book now?
2020-05-24T08:46:46Z lockywolf: On what? On the same subject?
2020-05-24T08:48:01Z lockywolf: There are many books on implementing lisp systems.
2020-05-24T08:49:38Z lockywolf: Like, to write a book, you need to know enough material on something that has not yet been written in a book.
2020-05-24T08:50:40Z lockywolf: I almost feel that a book is like a higher level language, written on top of articles, a lower level language.
2020-05-24T08:51:27Z lockywolf: There are still a lot of books I haven't read.
2020-05-24T08:52:20Z lockywolf: I guess, every knowledge worker meets this dilemma at some point. To write new stuff, you need to stop reading stuff and start writing.
2020-05-24T08:52:37Z amirouche: yes
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2020-05-24T08:54:22Z lockywolf_: My gut feeling is that the world has too many scientists. Who are writing things that will never be read, because there are not enough people reading them.
2020-05-24T08:54:47Z lockywolf_: I may be wrong obiously.
2020-05-24T08:55:22Z amirouche: It is a debate in some science circles, whether there is too much writing and not enough discovery.
2020-05-24T08:56:06Z amirouche: along the reproducible science and open science debate.
2020-05-24T08:57:07Z amirouche: speaking of not enough writing, one could say that there is enough writing about frontend dev or in general software engineering, but those writings do not match academic cursory look
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2020-05-24T09:06:08Z lockywolf_: Like, for me the main output of the "project" was finding out how much time it takes to solve a problem set.
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2020-05-24T09:06:26Z lockywolf_: TBH, it exceeded my expectations 10 times. It's amazing.
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2020-05-24T09:06:54Z amirouche: I was saying:
2020-05-24T09:06:56Z amirouche: speaking of not enough writing, one could say that there is enough writing about frontend dev or in general software engineering, but those writings do not match academic cursory look
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2020-05-24T09:07:55Z amirouche: that is why I trying to write a paper reviewing frontend frameworks and how to improve the situation using scheme.
2020-05-24T09:07:56Z lockywolf_: what do you mean by "academic cursory look"?
2020-05-24T09:08:20Z lockywolf_: gnu artanis?
2020-05-24T09:08:40Z lockywolf_: sorry, the two questions are unrelated
2020-05-24T09:08:54Z amirouche: lockywolf_: I mean that most writing are trying to sell you the last buzz word, instead of comparing and getting together a logical reasoning that explain why X is better than Y
2020-05-24T09:10:05Z amirouche: "is X better than Y ?" has an answer, at least a few bullet points on where one particular approach shines and when the other shines better. But there is no such review in the wild.
2020-05-24T09:10:30Z amirouche: most people choose tools based on which company or organization or people (friend of a friend) created the tool
2020-05-24T09:13:16Z lockywolf_: I am still typesetting the actual solution "book".
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2020-05-24T09:26:04Z amirouche: artanis is web backend framework. I thinking about browser frontend things.
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2020-05-24T11:29:10Z tohoyn: why can't I mail to the SRFI-72 mailing list even though I have subscribed there?
2020-05-24T11:29:36Z wasamasa: could be moderatin
2020-05-24T11:29:45Z wasamasa: *moderation
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2020-05-24T14:33:35Z jcowan: Only slightly tongue in cheek, the estimated average number of readers of dissertations is zero, even if you include the author.
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2020-05-24T14:46:43Z zaifir: Moral: Only write a dissertation if you really think it's worth writing?
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2020-05-24T15:09:49Z rain1: hello
2020-05-24T15:09:56Z rain1: any mk questions
2020-05-24T15:11:26Z wasamasa: why is kawn so mini
2020-05-24T15:11:36Z wasamasa: *kawen
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2020-05-24T15:23:08Z zaifir: jcowan: In your bytestrings spec, what does `bytestring-split' do with its `grammar' argument?
2020-05-24T15:25:51Z jcowan: If it is prefix or suffix, then ignore any delimiter in the first or last position respectively.
2020-05-24T15:26:09Z jcowan: i'll add that sentence
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2020-05-24T15:26:40Z zaifir: OK, so it's used to parse the bytestring argument, not to construct the result list.
2020-05-24T15:27:13Z zaifir: I thought perhaps there were meant to be delimiters interspersed among the segments.
2020-05-24T15:28:36Z zaifir: Great, thanks.
2020-05-24T15:31:16Z jcowan: Yes, exactly.  I've committed those clarifications.
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2020-05-24T16:53:33Z ecraven: ;)
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2020-05-24T17:00:05Z greyeax: kind of a general programming question - whats the way you would usually pull something like a machine serial number in a program
2020-05-24T17:00:26Z greyeax: I know i could use an external program for that, but that seems inelegant or inefficient
2020-05-24T17:01:53Z greyeax: ie: something like using the ioreg util in macos and just calling it from within my program
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2020-05-24T17:04:45Z Riastradh: It would vary from machine to machine, but...what are you planning to do with such a thing?
2020-05-24T17:05:01Z Riastradh: What happens in a VM?  In a container?  In a chroot environment?
2020-05-24T17:05:11Z Riastradh: What decision do you plan to make on the basis of such a serial number?
2020-05-24T17:06:48Z greyeax: Ahh well it's a really simple setup, so I don't have to consider things like VMs and the like. Basically I just need to pull the machine serial number once, to check it against a database, which I accessing via an API
2020-05-24T17:07:15Z Riastradh: That doesn't really tell me anything about what you're doing with this serial number.
2020-05-24T17:07:38Z Riastradh: Might as well have just said `well, I'm going to look it up before doing something'.
2020-05-24T17:07:44Z greyeax: lol
2020-05-24T17:08:21Z mdhughes: Portable answer: (system "ioreg >tmpfile") then read the text file.
2020-05-24T17:08:24Z greyeax: I mean, really that is all I'm doing. I just need to access it the once.
2020-05-24T17:09:32Z Riastradh: (not really sure in what sense mdhughes meant `portable' there, since neither `system' nor `ioreg' is portable; also one should generally be careful with choosing temporary files)
2020-05-24T17:09:55Z mdhughes: Non-portable answer, R6RS (open-process-ports) then have fun reading the I/O docs until you figure out parsing stdio; or every other impl has its own ideas.
2020-05-24T17:12:16Z greyeax: Riastradh, In regards to what I'm doing with it, I'm just using it to see if it already exists in a DB. If not, adding it to that DB
2020-05-24T17:12:44Z wasamasa: that's not explaining the purpose
2020-05-24T17:12:45Z greyeax: mdhughes, Thanks - so i guess there's nothing wrong with calling command line programs within a program?
2020-05-24T17:13:01Z wasamasa: why on earth do you need a machine serial number?
2020-05-24T17:13:05Z mdhughes: No problem, that's all shell scripts do after all.
2020-05-24T17:13:22Z greyeax: Ah, I'm building an extension to a bootstrapper for work machines.
2020-05-24T17:13:50Z greyeax: I want them to automatically add themselves to our asset management database so we don't have to have people doing it manually
2020-05-24T17:13:53Z greyeax: which is slow and annoying
2020-05-24T17:14:15Z greyeax: but it would also be a utility that could reassign them to different users
2020-05-24T17:14:32Z wasamasa: so, provisioning software?
2020-05-24T17:14:41Z wasamasa: I assume ansible doesn't need that
2020-05-24T17:14:41Z greyeax: basically, yeah
2020-05-24T17:15:16Z greyeax: people use ansible for asset tracking?
2020-05-24T17:15:34Z wasamasa: for provisioning machines
2020-05-24T17:16:20Z wasamasa: all you care about is what hosts get what software and write something that gets them to have that software
2020-05-24T17:16:30Z wasamasa: with some tests whether the software needs to be installed
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2020-05-24T17:18:10Z greyeax: ahh well i mean we have that part sorted already with munki
2020-05-24T17:18:43Z greyeax: im reall just automating something that's... clerical
2020-05-24T17:19:04Z greyeax: though i suppose there's probably a way to use what we're already doing for that
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2020-05-24T17:28:00Z mdhughes: I mostly use shell or Python for sysadmin tasks like that, but it's nice to get a real binary so you don't have dependencies, and that's where Scheme makes it easier…
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2020-05-24T17:31:15Z greyeax: yea that's what i was thinking
2020-05-24T17:31:29Z greyeax: esp since macos is still like using python 2 or some nonsense
2020-05-24T17:31:45Z greyeax: i was like 'neat i get to do it in scheme, and it makes it so i don't have to worry about weird python 2/3 stuff'
2020-05-24T17:39:51Z zaifir: Do you know the OSs you'll be running on?
2020-05-24T17:40:32Z greyeax: just macos
2020-05-24T17:42:17Z zaifir: That should simplify things a lot.  But Scheme isn't going to help you much; you'll just have to call some external utility.  I don't think there's anything inelegant about that, when it's such a low-level system detail.
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2020-05-24T19:59:00Z greyeax: im finding that it feels actually pretty easy to reason about how a script works in scheme
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2020-05-24T20:10:19Z zaifir: greyeax: Good!
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2020-05-25T12:13:46Z amirouche: hello, is anyone interested to review an early draft of a paper I am working on for Scheme Workshop.  The subject is "Scheme in the browser".  The paper is in a google drive, but I can move it to github.
2020-05-25T12:14:37Z amirouche: the paper is 7 pages.
2020-05-25T12:18:32Z jcowan: amirouche: Gladly
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2020-05-25T12:40:10Z amirouche: you are awesome!
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2020-05-25T12:49:08Z jcowan: I'm confused in the first paragraph of "A procedure-based state manager."  Is patch! part of the API or something supplied by the user?
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2020-05-25T13:27:44Z amirouche: jcowan: it is hidden to the user.
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2020-05-25T13:33:15Z amirouche: jcowan: the API is only the procedure: (create-app root init view)
2020-05-25T13:33:33Z amirouche: where init return the "inital state" and "view" return sxml
2020-05-25T13:35:15Z jcowan nods.
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2020-05-25T13:48:06Z siraben: amirouche:  Where's the paper?
2020-05-25T13:52:55Z siraben: Got it.
2020-05-25T14:11:16Z jcowan: I think you need to add a lot more detail about how your algorithms work; given that, I don't think there is too much detail about existing JS libs.
2020-05-25T14:11:48Z rain1: DHello!
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2020-05-25T14:13:10Z amirouche: jcowan: the procedure patch! is implemented by reactjs (I can dive into that...)
2020-05-25T14:13:40Z amirouche: reactjs is not mine, it is facebook library. They are alternatives like preact or snabbdom js
2020-05-25T14:13:43Z jcowan: Yes, do.  Tell *how* you use ReactJS and *why* you do it that way.
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2020-05-25T14:14:18Z jcowan: that leads to a natural "further work" type of conclusion.
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2020-05-25T18:40:00Z edw: Topography/engineering question: There's a family of scales e.g. 1, 2, 2.5, 5, 8, 10, etc. that are commonly used for thing as disparate as currency denominations, markings on map distance scales, etc. I thought they were called Vernier scales but I was wrong. Anyone recall what I'm talking about?
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2020-05-25T18:45:05Z edw: Answer to supra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renard_series
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2020-05-25T18:48:20Z fizzie: (There are also the E series. But that's a much more boring name.)
2020-05-25T18:50:01Z edw: Yeah, I'm falling into the same wiki hole I did a year or so ago. I wondered during a three thousand mile ride why my motorbike's GPS chose certain numbers for map scales. I solved the problem by abandoning my GPS.
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2020-05-26T09:31:13Z lockywolf: What do people use for debugging assertions in scheme?
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2020-05-26T09:43:04Z rain1: does your scheme have a debugger?
2020-05-26T09:43:15Z rain1: i know mine (unfortunately) doesn't so i just print stuff
2020-05-26T09:43:27Z wasamasa: mine has one, but I've yet to figure out how to use it
2020-05-26T09:43:34Z wasamasa: so for me it's printing and staring at code
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2020-05-26T09:47:25Z lockywolf: Well.. I didn't mean an actual debugging.
2020-05-26T09:47:49Z lockywolf: I mean, that I want some construct to attach runtime type-checks to some pieces of the code.
2020-05-26T09:48:22Z lockywolf: But in such a way so that I could do some (declare debug), and have them disappear all together.
2020-05-26T09:49:43Z rain1: you could do this by having 2 different files with different implementations of the debug procedures
2020-05-26T09:52:09Z lockywolf: I don't understand.
2020-05-26T09:53:08Z lockywolf: Like, define some (assert) that would expand to nothing?
2020-05-26T09:53:45Z lockywolf: Or the actual testing code, depending on some flag?
2020-05-26T09:55:35Z amirouche: srfi-145 does that
2020-05-26T09:57:59Z lockywolf: amirouche, thank you, seems exactly what I need
2020-05-26T09:58:29Z amirouche: using chibi, there is a debug mode that must enable / disable (I do not know how to do so)
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2020-05-26T10:03:29Z wasamasa: funny that they call them assumptions instead of assertions
2020-05-26T10:03:49Z mdhughes: I have a global DEBUG and just (when DEBUG print/assert/whatever) wherever I need it. I am a caveman.
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2020-05-26T12:11:48Z jcowan: assume is different from assert
2020-05-26T12:12:34Z jcowan: assert is guaranteed to raise a condition, whereas assume isn't; it means that a compiler can assume that type and go wonky if it isn't so
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2020-05-26T12:54:42Z jcowan: so if you say (assert (integer? #f)) you will get an assertion exception; if you say (assume (integer? #f)) you will get *@#$NNJBJWEHJHHJJ CONNECTION LOST
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2020-05-26T12:56:46Z jcowan loooves Quinquireme
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2020-05-26T13:09:27Z rain1: https://www.poetrybyheart.org.uk/poems/cargoes/
2020-05-26T13:09:30Z rain1: that was cool
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2020-05-26T13:25:33Z foof`: amirouche: it's chibi -Ddebug
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2020-05-26T13:25:46Z amirouche: thanks :)
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2020-05-27T07:19:06Z lockywolf__: There is some perverse joy in finding that the code you wrote half a year ago still works.
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2020-05-27T08:19:58Z erkin: May your joy reach decades.
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2020-05-27T08:40:55Z amirouche: :)
2020-05-27T08:41:17Z amirouche: my work on databases is a decade old.
2020-05-27T08:49:19Z mdhughes: I think the oldest live code I still use is ImageUtil, written in Java in 2010, but I have Python code back to '98, probably needs 2to3 conversion, and I know my mailscan C program from 1990-ish still compiles, but I don't use it anymore.
2020-05-27T08:49:41Z rain1: i wish i had my old code
2020-05-27T08:49:49Z rain1: i did some cool stuff early on
2020-05-27T08:50:21Z mdhughes: I lost most of my C code from the '80s-90s, but some of it's still in an archive I haven't opened in years.
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2020-05-27T08:53:13Z amirouche: early on I did not use git or whatever, all the code pre-2010 is lost.
2020-05-27T08:53:27Z amirouche: (and no backup)
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2020-05-27T08:56:33Z mdhughes: I don't use source control for backups. I have an archive script that makes a tar.bz2 of the current dir, minus build & temp files, and copies it to a bak dir. These days that's on dropbox.
2020-05-27T08:57:09Z mdhughes: Dunno when I wrote that, sometime in the '90s.
2020-05-27T08:58:22Z mdhughes: Which if I used source control more, I could answer that question, but I'd probably spend more time organizing code than writing it.
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2020-05-27T10:26:16Z scheme_n00b: Greetings, in my environment both chibi-scheme and scm return the newline character as the result of a (read-char) function call. Even if no key is pressed. Is this correct?
2020-05-27T10:26:43Z scheme_n00b: Please guide me ...
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2020-05-27T10:28:08Z scheme_n00b: Hello ... anyone?
2020-05-27T10:28:26Z wasamasa: if you're testing it in the repl, funny things will happen
2020-05-27T10:28:46Z scheme_n00b: wasamasa: Yes I'm in the repl
2020-05-27T10:28:51Z wasamasa: don't do that then
2020-05-27T10:29:26Z wasamasa: the repl reads in user input to eval it
2020-05-27T10:29:39Z wasamasa: that will mess with your read-char calls
2020-05-27T10:30:09Z wasamasa: anyway, testing with chicken I enter (list (read-char) (read-char) (read-char)) into csi, type foo, hit the enter key and get a list of three chars
2020-05-27T10:31:24Z scheme_n00b: wasamasa: okay, makes sense. With scm, for the same example, I need to ht enter twice and three #\nl 's are returned
2020-05-27T10:32:01Z wasamasa: with chibi I get o, f and newline
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2020-05-27T10:32:30Z wasamasa: and an error about o not being a defined variable
2020-05-27T10:33:21Z scheme_n00b: will this problem also manifest in code  'load'-ed in the REPL?
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2020-05-27T10:34:29Z wasamasa: depends what it's using to read input
2020-05-27T10:34:41Z wasamasa: oh right, I remember, I'm using readline in my repl :D
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2020-05-27T10:36:59Z mdhughes: Chez Scheme Version 9.5.2
2020-05-27T10:36:59Z mdhughes: > (list (read-char) (read-char) (read-char))
2020-05-27T10:36:59Z mdhughes: abc
2020-05-27T10:37:01Z mdhughes: (#\b #\c #\a)
2020-05-27T10:37:20Z scheme_n00b: on my system a file (a.scm) containing only one line "(display (read-char))" when loaded in scm via (load ...) does not  read in a character, same problem it just displays a new line
2020-05-27T10:38:13Z scheme_n00b: so how do I read characters from standard input in my scripts? :)
2020-05-27T10:38:42Z scheme_n00b: mdhughes: why is the input being reversed?
2020-05-27T10:39:55Z mdhughes: I don't know, that's insanity.
2020-05-27T10:40:05Z mdhughes: In scheme-script, it works fine.
2020-05-27T10:41:35Z mdhughes: So the answer is always to write I/O in a script, not at REPL.
2020-05-27T10:41:50Z wasamasa: or maybe not reading chars at a time
2020-05-27T10:42:17Z wasamasa: use some convenience function that does that tricky stuff
2020-05-27T10:42:21Z mdhughes: Well, even with lines it may not be what you expect.
2020-05-27T10:42:34Z wasamasa: if you're using readline, ncurses, ...
2020-05-27T10:43:06Z scheme_n00b: wasamasa: I'm using scm+ncurses and I need to check for keystrokes :)
2020-05-27T10:43:20Z wasamasa: so why not use whatever the ncurses function is named
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2020-05-27T10:44:04Z wasamasa: like getch, getstr, ...
2020-05-27T10:44:39Z scheme_n00b: I'll try what you suggest, using wgetch directly. I know that works correctly in 'C' code. Just that scm provides an abstraction for ncurses I/O via its soft ports system. Thanks
2020-05-27T10:45:39Z wasamasa: even if that's the case, you must pass the correct port to read-char
2020-05-27T10:45:54Z wasamasa: otherwise it will read from whatever (current-input-port) is
2020-05-27T10:46:06Z scheme_n00b: yes ... the port is created as a result of calling (newwin) in scm
2020-05-27T10:47:02Z scheme_n00b: but that call is returning a newline too ...  :)
2020-05-27T10:53:41Z scheme_n00b: wasamasa: Once again, Thank you. Bye!
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2020-05-27T12:55:10Z jcowan: Probably what's happening is that `read` is terminating on the closing ) and has no need to read a newline, so it doesn't.
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2020-05-27T13:44:23Z gwatt: mdhughes : function arguments are not guaranteed to be evaluated in order.
2020-05-27T13:48:05Z wasamasa: I don't think that's it
2020-05-27T13:48:16Z wasamasa: you can rewrite it in terms of let* and still get the same behavior in chibi
2020-05-27T13:49:25Z wasamasa: (let* ((c1 (read-char)) (c2 (read-char)) (c3 (read-char))) (list c1 c2 c3))
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2020-05-27T13:55:25Z gwatt: Chez and Guile both behave as expected.
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2020-05-27T13:57:17Z Riastradh: What is `expected'?
2020-05-27T13:57:53Z wasamasa: evaluate the above, type foo, enter
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2020-05-27T13:58:02Z wasamasa: it should return a list of f, o and o
2020-05-27T13:59:24Z Riastradh: One way to write the repl is:
2020-05-27T13:59:48Z Riastradh: (let loop () (display "> ") (write (eval (read) env)) (newline) (loop))
2020-05-27T14:00:12Z Riastradh: This approach will return \n, f, o (and then gronk with `undefined variable: o').
2020-05-27T14:00:32Z Riastradh: Another way is:
2020-05-27T14:01:02Z Riastradh: (let loop () (display "> ") (let ((e (read))) (do () ((not (char-whitespace? (peek-char)))) (read-char)) (write (eval x env)) (newline)) (loop))
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2020-05-27T14:01:32Z Riastradh: This is somewhat more complicated, and the difference manifests only when you try evaluate a call to read-char.
2020-05-27T14:06:31Z Riastradh: Another way is to read lines at a time, and feed them into a push-type parser, rather than having the repl be driven by a pull-type parser.
2020-05-27T14:06:51Z Riastradh: This will manifest a difference if you type
2020-05-27T14:06:55Z Riastradh: > (read-char) x
2020-05-27T14:07:20Z Riastradh: Which of these is `expected'?  They're all justifiable at some level.
2020-05-27T14:07:45Z gwatt: Riastradh: initially, this conversation started out when someone expressed confusion that (list (read-char) (read-char) (read-char)) returned a jumbled list of characters.
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2020-05-27T14:08:00Z Riastradh: I think I like the last one best (and push parsers in general) but it's probably the least common strategy (because read is not a push parser).
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2020-05-27T16:06:01Z jcowan: (let* ((c1 (read-char)) (c2 (read-char)) (c3 (read-char))) (list c1 c2 c3))foo followed by enter DTRT
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2020-05-27T16:22:47Z mdhughes: Yeah, I guess I mostly write functional enough that I haven't been bitten by eval order in a call before.
2020-05-27T16:25:28Z Riastradh: jcowan: What is `TRT' and why?
2020-05-27T16:25:48Z mdhughes: The weird part is a script is being eval'd in a different order than the REPL.
2020-05-27T16:26:05Z jcowan: The Right Thing
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2020-05-27T16:26:19Z Riastradh: jcowan: no I mean what is the evening star and why
2020-05-27T16:27:26Z jcowan: The morning star, because identity holds necessarily if it holds at all.
2020-05-27T16:32:48Z jcowan: I am a curious beast, being both a Quinean and a Kripkean.
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2020-05-28T03:37:26Z userself: is guile r5rs/r6rs/r7rs or is it it's own thing?
2020-05-28T03:37:35Z userself: i haven't used it before and it seems interesting
2020-05-28T03:37:58Z zaifir: It's mostly R6RS-compliant, which is pretty much all you can ask for with R6.
2020-05-28T03:38:16Z userself: oh, alright
2020-05-28T03:38:23Z userself: that makes it much easier to pick up for me
2020-05-28T03:38:52Z zaifir: There is an ongoing effort to add R7 support, I believe.
2020-05-28T03:39:43Z zaifir: (And R6 can be implemented as a proper subset of R7: http://andykeep.com/SchemeWorkshop2015/papers/sfpw1-2015-clinger.pdf)
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2020-05-28T05:40:39Z lockywolf_: Phew, the ultimate solution to SICP is a little more than 78000 lines of code.
2020-05-28T05:41:24Z lockywolf_: 2.6 megabytes
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2020-05-28T17:35:05Z wolfdrop: i recently installed "chicken scheme" under arch linux,however when i try to compile a file it ends up running the microsoft c# compiler
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2020-05-28T17:38:20Z wasamasa: both programs happen to have the same name
2020-05-28T17:38:44Z wasamasa: one way of resolving the conflict is renaming it from csc to chicken-csc
2020-05-28T17:38:59Z wasamasa: IIRC that's what the arch package did at some point
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2020-05-28T17:42:07Z wolfdrop: wasamasa:absolutely amazing,that worked,thank you so much
2020-05-28T17:43:00Z wasamasa: you can install an AUR version to avoid that (it will conflict with mono though) or install it from sources and override mono stuff by strategic PATH placement
2020-05-28T17:43:15Z wasamasa: I did the latter because I'm dealing with different versions of it
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2020-05-28T17:43:50Z heisenberg-25: are there any websocket implementation in sheme compatible with gnu guile?
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2020-05-28T17:49:49Z dTal: that's a hilarious bug
2020-05-28T17:49:55Z wasamasa: https://git.dthompson.us/guile-websocket.git
2020-05-28T17:50:44Z wasamasa: https://docs.racket-lang.org/rfc6455/index.html
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2020-05-28T18:57:29Z amirouche: I do not understand why several people raises concerns (?) about the maximum-depth-limit parameter in json 180
2020-05-28T18:57:57Z amirouche: the rationale is that it can lower DoS attacks.
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2020-05-28T18:59:51Z amirouche: I mean the default is inf with the sample implementation, but in a real world scenario when you accept untrusted json from the wild internet, you want to keep the depth of the json you want to parse to something a little bit bigger than the maximum of what your schemas accept.
2020-05-28T19:00:46Z Riastradh: Maybe you should be able to compute a guaranteed maximum depth from your schema, or raise a compile-time warning/error if no such bound can be proven...
2020-05-28T19:01:24Z Riastradh: (I did this for picopb: https://mumble.net/~campbell/hg/picopb/)
2020-05-28T19:02:39Z amirouche: that is the idea, but at this level, I do not know the maximum depth of the schema
2020-05-28T19:03:24Z amirouche: srif-180 is not a library for describing schemas in JSON... sadly ;)
2020-05-28T19:03:41Z amirouche: good idea :)
2020-05-28T19:05:51Z Oxyd: Well if it's just a limit on the nesting depth, then it's not much use against malicious documents, is it? You can send simply a JSON vector of several billion elements until the parser runs out of memory. The nesting depth is 1 in that case.
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2020-05-28T20:22:17Z amirouche: Oxyd: but 1M elment would leaad to  memoy error no?
2020-05-28T20:23:45Z Oxyd: Well running out of memory is a way of DoSing a service, no?
2020-05-28T20:24:28Z amirouche: yes
2020-05-28T20:25:30Z amirouche: Oxyd: what would yoiu do to protect again those kind of attack ?
2020-05-28T20:26:20Z gwatt: hard limit on buffer sizes is one way.
2020-05-28T20:26:32Z amirouche: buffer size?
2020-05-28T20:26:41Z Oxyd: Probably just a limit on the maximum size of the JSON document itself. You limit it to, say 10 MB or whatever is reasonable for whatever you're doing, and it shouldn't be possible to cause too much trouble with a document of that size.
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2020-05-28T20:28:37Z Oxyd: Maybe a better way would be to give the JSON parser itself a fixed amount of memory it can use and if it runs out, it has to report an error. But I'm not sure how feasible that is to implement in Scheme.
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2020-05-28T20:30:18Z Oxyd: Then again, since it's an SRFI, perhaps you could expect implementors to use some non-portable implementation-specific ways to limit memory use, or just implement it in native code.
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2020-05-28T22:25:37Z thmprover: Is there any standard module system? (I haven't looked at r7rs, or even r6rs, too much yet)
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2020-05-28T22:35:34Z zaifir: thmprover: Yes. See R7RS sec. 5.6.
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2020-05-28T22:39:20Z thmprover: zaifir: thanks (:
2020-05-28T22:39:38Z zaifir: thmprover: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs/src/draft-10/rnrs/r7rs.pdf
2020-05-28T22:40:25Z zaifir: thmprover: R6 libraries are very similar to R7, although there are a few subtle differences.
2020-05-28T22:40:51Z mdhughes: "standard" in the xkcd sense, yes.
2020-05-28T22:41:38Z mdhughes: So far in my library sample, not a single impl's version works on another impl.
2020-05-28T22:42:15Z mdhughes: http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-code "Example Program with Module"
2020-05-28T22:42:30Z zaifir: I haven't had too much trouble running R7RS libraries in both chibi and R7-flavored-CHICKEN.
2020-05-28T22:44:43Z mdhughes: With unmodified code? I don't see how.
2020-05-28T22:45:10Z zaifir: It's portable code.
2020-05-28T22:45:15Z thmprover: There's no correspondence between the library name and the path of the file? E.g., (define-library (thmprover math calculus)) must correspond to the file "thmprover/math/calculus.scm"?
2020-05-28T22:45:49Z mdhughes: In some there is, in some it's a raw filename.
2020-05-28T22:46:44Z zaifir: thmprover: How (import <library>) resolves <library> to a file is implementation-defined, and the subject of a lot of current debate.
2020-05-28T22:47:11Z thmprover: egads
2020-05-28T22:47:54Z zaifir: In practice, it's not very painful.
2020-05-28T22:48:13Z mdhughes: "egads" is right, but you just read the manual for your chosen impl and see how they handle it.
2020-05-28T22:48:54Z mdhughes: Worst case, everyone handles (load "foo.scm") or whatever more or less identically.
2020-05-28T22:49:03Z jcowan: amirouche: This is why I was saying there should also be parameters for maximum string length and JSON array length.
2020-05-28T22:49:05Z mdhughes: Then it's not in a module, but you have working code.
2020-05-28T22:49:20Z zaifir: What's more annoying is the large number of implementations with custom module systems that don't yet support libraries.
2020-05-28T22:49:45Z zaifir: mdhughes: And `include', assume they provide it.
2020-05-28T22:49:56Z zaifir: *assuming
2020-05-28T22:50:07Z thmprover: I am still deliberating over what implementation to use :S
2020-05-28T22:50:39Z zaifir: thmprover: IME, that can take way too much time. :)  Just pick something and have fun; pick something else if it's not meeting your needs.
2020-05-28T22:50:43Z jcowan: Indeed, it's useful for different implementations to have different library name to file name mappings
2020-05-28T22:51:32Z jcowan: thmprover: Read https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations including the comments; it may help you decide.
2020-05-28T22:51:36Z mdhughes: Well, my advice is Chez if you like speed, a good REPL, and binaries. Chicken if you can sacrifice some speed and a poor REPL for a lot of libraries. But pick anything and get started, the actual code port between impls is fairly trivial.
2020-05-28T22:51:57Z jcowan: But yes, you can shift to a new implementation easily.
2020-05-28T22:52:36Z thmprover: jcowan: thanks, I was looking for something like this (:
2020-05-28T22:53:02Z jcowan: (My worst issue was developing in a pre-R6RS version of Chez that allowed () as a self-evaluating expression; when I moved to Chicken, I had to change () to '(), but  then I had a lot of (lambda '() ...) and similar non-expression uses of () to fix.
2020-05-28T22:53:21Z zaifir: Wow.
2020-05-28T22:53:22Z jcowan: literals too
2020-05-28T22:54:12Z jcowan: '((this) () (that)) has to not become '((this) '() (that))
2020-05-28T22:54:53Z mdhughes: Reverse for me: I got the bad habit of #() as a quoted vector from CHICKEN. It needs to be '#() in Chez.
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2020-05-28T22:55:59Z mdhughes: Do not put impl-specific syntax in your main program, only in a compat lib, is a lesson I should learn.
2020-05-28T22:56:36Z Oxyd: Implementations would ideally warn about non-standard constructs.
2020-05-28T22:56:50Z Oxyd: Also in what contexts do you need to quote a vector literal?
2020-05-28T22:57:12Z mdhughes: Building data structures in code.
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2020-05-28T22:57:23Z zaifir: Well, then, any user-created syntax would also be "non-standard" and elicit warnings.  That sounds rather miserable.
2020-05-28T22:57:41Z thmprover: OK, so it looks like either Guile or Chibi is what I'm looking for...
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2020-05-28T22:58:17Z Oxyd: What do you mean “user-created syntax”? (define-syntax is very much standard.)
2020-05-28T22:58:24Z thmprover: One more question: what about generic functions? Like extending `conjugate` to quaternionic numbers?
2020-05-28T22:58:39Z zaifir: Oxyd: I mean macros.
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2020-05-28T22:59:30Z zaifir: zaifir: I really don't want (define-syntax foo ...) to cause the compiler to yell about "non-standard forms!"
2020-05-28T22:59:46Z zaifir: Oops, I'm talking to myself.
2020-05-28T22:59:46Z Oxyd: What is non-standard about that?
2020-05-28T23:00:13Z zaifir: Oxyd: "foo: non-standard form!"
2020-05-28T23:00:32Z Oxyd: What? Macro expansion is very much standard.
2020-05-28T23:01:21Z zaifir: Oxyd: OK, maybe I misunderstood what you were suggesting.
2020-05-28T23:02:26Z zaifir: Oxyd: I thought you meant that you want a warning for every non-RnRS syntactic form that appears in a program.
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2020-05-28T23:23:32Z mdhughes: Has it been proposed to accept commas inline in numbers? ISTR seeing that.
2020-05-28T23:25:28Z zaifir: Underscores.  See SRFI 169.
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2020-05-28T23:31:07Z mdhughes: Hmn. Not as human-friendly as I really needed. Yay parser writing time.
2020-05-28T23:32:32Z zaifir: It's always parser-writing time somewhere.
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2020-05-29T00:46:59Z zaifir: Is it advisable to close string/bytevector output ports?  e.g. after calling (get-output-[string|bytevector] PORT), is there a potential space leak if we don't close PORT?
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2020-05-29T00:48:41Z Riastradh: yes
2020-05-29T00:48:43Z Riastradh: oh
2020-05-29T00:48:46Z Riastradh: string/bytevector?  dunno
2020-05-29T00:49:50Z zaifir: Examples in the R7RS PDF don't close such ports.
2020-05-29T00:50:09Z Riastradh: In MIT Scheme at least it doesn't matter.
2020-05-29T00:50:22Z Riastradh: Generally not likely to matter.
2020-05-29T00:50:24Z foof`: no implementation should leak memory for any object
2020-05-29T00:50:26Z zaifir: That's good to know.
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2020-05-29T00:51:26Z foof`: the reason file and network ports should be closed explicitly is not because of memory concerns, but because they hold a limited system resource and releasing this in a timely manner is important.
2020-05-29T00:52:09Z foof`: they _should_ release this of their own when the port is finialized though.
2020-05-29T00:52:39Z foof`: and at least chibi will trigger a gc if it runs out of file descriptors.
2020-05-29T00:53:01Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme too
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2020-05-29T00:53:48Z mdhughes: Also you may still have data in an output buffer!
2020-05-29T00:54:12Z zaifir: But none of that applies to string/bytevector ports, presumably.
2020-05-29T00:54:36Z zaifir: Unless the Scheme is using a temporary file behind the scenes, I guess.
2020-05-29T00:55:28Z foof: ... unless they were implemented by writing the data to a temp file, which is what the SRFI 6 reference implementation does (because it's the only portable R5RS way to do so).
2020-05-29T00:56:43Z zaifir: Right.
2020-05-29T00:57:40Z zaifir: Maybe it's best to play it safe and close them.
2020-05-29T00:59:28Z foof: *shrug* I don't think that's a realistic impl strategy that needs to be accounted for.
2020-05-29T01:02:42Z zaifir: foof, Riastradh: Thanks very much.
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2020-05-29T02:08:00Z jcowan: zaifir: You can use (call-with-porti proc port), which will close port when proc returns normally.
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2020-05-29T03:32:46Z lockywolf__: what is the syntactic equivalent of set! ?
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2020-05-29T03:46:40Z jcowan: Eh?  set! is syntax.
2020-05-29T03:48:40Z lockywolf_: I meant something like (define-syntax let* '*undefined*) (define-syntax let* (syntax-rules <...>))
2020-05-29T03:49:02Z thmprover: set! is as primitive as it gets
2020-05-29T03:49:04Z lockywolf_: Only define-syntax won't complain if let* is undefined
2020-05-29T03:49:32Z lockywolf_: I want something that can only mutate the syntax, but not define new.
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2020-05-29T04:02:52Z thmprover: I see, so you want it to throw an error if it's not already defined, and if the identifier *is* already introduced...just use your new definition instead?
2020-05-29T04:03:21Z lockywolf_: yes
2020-05-29T04:03:43Z thmprover: You could probably create a macro to do that
2020-05-29T04:03:56Z lockywolf_: could be called (redefine-syntax!, or something)
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2020-05-29T04:07:16Z lockywolf_: How?
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2020-05-29T04:07:40Z thmprover: Hmm...Guile uses `(defined? 'foo)` to check if foo is bound
2020-05-29T04:08:44Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: Usually this indicates a mistake in how your program is structured.
2020-05-29T04:08:47Z Riastradh: What are you really trying to do?
2020-05-29T04:09:35Z thmprover: I think Riastradh is correct
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2020-05-29T04:11:19Z lockywolf_: Nothing out of ordinary. Just trying to learn how to write new syntax
2020-05-29T04:11:52Z lockywolf_: most exercises on writing new syntax are like "reimplement that well-known derived syntactic expression"
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2020-05-29T04:12:12Z lockywolf_: So I want to make sure that when I am working, they are properly undefined.
2020-05-29T04:14:00Z thmprover: Well, if I want to undefine, say `(define a 32)`, I could try `(set! a (if #f #t))`
2020-05-29T04:14:17Z thmprover: Please don't ever do that in real code, though
2020-05-29T04:14:37Z lockywolf_: (define) is a runtime object definition.
2020-05-29T04:14:43Z thmprover: An "undefine!" macro may be a fun/horrible little gadget...
2020-05-29T04:15:24Z lockywolf_: At the moment I'm doing like (define-syntax or (lambda x (error "wrong")))
2020-05-29T04:16:12Z thmprover: Why not do something like `(define-syntax my-or (...))`?
2020-05-29T04:16:12Z lockywolf_: but this still permits errors like (define-syntax ơr  (lambda x (error "wrong")))
2020-05-29T04:16:41Z lockywolf_: thmprover, because in the definition of my-or, I need to be extra careful to _not_ use or.
2020-05-29T04:16:55Z lockywolf_: and this is super hard to debug
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2020-05-29T04:18:34Z thmprover: `(define-syntax or (syntax-rules () ((_ ...) (error "wrong"))))` works for me
2020-05-29T04:19:06Z lockywolf_: thmprover, works, for most of the cases
2020-05-29T04:19:26Z lockywolf_: but doesn't prevent from a typo in the macro name
2020-05-29T04:19:38Z lockywolf_: (define-syntax ơr  (lambda x (error "wrong")))
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2020-05-29T04:22:53Z thmprover: Looks like the identifier you're trying to use isn't supported by the macro system :(
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2020-05-29T04:26:00Z thmprover: `(define-syntax  ơr (syntax-rules () ((_ ...) (error "wrong"))))` works just fine
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2020-05-29T04:27:07Z lockywolf_: exactly!
2020-05-29T04:27:37Z lockywolf_: so you're defining something unrelated to or, but think that you properly undefine or
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2020-05-29T04:29:32Z lockywolf_: so you're (un)defining something unrelated to or, but think that you properly undefine or
2020-05-29T04:30:33Z thmprover: This is too clever for me, I like simple things. (Simple things please simple people :p)
2020-05-29T04:31:20Z thmprover: Surely there's a "null" character you could insert automatically in a symbol, then use that modified symbol as the identifier for a macro
2020-05-29T04:31:39Z thmprover: No, this is a horrible idea. I should stop helping.
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2020-05-29T04:32:13Z thmprover: I better quit while I'm ahead, plus it's late; I'll catch you later.
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2020-05-29T04:39:32Z lockywolf__: good luck
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2020-05-29T05:03:58Z lockywolf__: hehe. TSPL section 3.6 says: ... does not support the publication of keyword bindings, since there is no analogue to set! for keywords.
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2020-05-29T07:01:01Z amirouche: my paper is 7 pages without abstract or keywords which would add half a page.
2020-05-29T07:01:06Z amirouche: not bad.
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2020-05-29T07:01:15Z amirouche: now I need to code.
2020-05-29T07:01:22Z amirouche: :)
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2020-05-29T15:40:19Z jcowan: Redefining existing syntax keywords is like painting the floor while standingon it.  In principle you can, but don't do it.
2020-05-29T15:44:57Z gwatt: It sounds like it would pretty trivially make compilation undecidable
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2020-05-29T15:47:49Z X-Scale: which raises the question: is there a language inside scheme trying to get out of the chains ?
2020-05-29T15:52:58Z rain1: what a question !
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2020-05-29T16:51:11Z jcowan: Some would say Kernel is that language
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2020-05-29T17:01:48Z X-Scale: Oh, that's quite interesting. I'm reading about it now -> https://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html
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2020-05-29T17:14:32Z erkin: I like how Scheme lets you easily load a footgun like (define-syntax define (identifier-syntax define-syntax))
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2020-05-29T17:15:33Z gwatt: That should at least explode quickly once "define" no longer has a valid syntax transformer as the second argument
2020-05-29T17:16:07Z erkin: Racket uses syntax parameters that doesn't let you fire the footgun.
2020-05-29T17:17:22Z erkin: As a consequence, you can't even do (identifier-syntax lambda) without `lambda' throwing a fit about abuse.
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2020-05-29T17:18:06Z erkin: that don't*
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2020-05-29T17:42:19Z JITn: 'Till Kernel comes.
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2020-05-29T20:24:25Z lf94: Is a lambda calculus program more compressible than a regular binary?
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2020-05-29T20:25:01Z lf94: Is lisp more compressible than a program compiled from C and compressed? *
2020-05-29T20:25:45Z wasamasa: looking at crinkler and friends, dunno
2020-05-29T20:25:49Z wasamasa: write a paper
2020-05-29T20:28:50Z tdammers: information theory would suggest it's not
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2020-05-30T05:16:01Z greyeax: archlinux
2020-05-30T05:16:03Z greyeax: whoops
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2020-05-30T05:40:10Z lockywolf: Okay, the full solution to SICP is 4989 pages
2020-05-30T05:44:06Z lockywolf: Half of which is the compiled metacircular evaluator
2020-05-30T05:47:32Z lockywolf: An on-topic question: how can I submit an incomplete scheme expression into a repl for interpretation?
2020-05-30T05:48:03Z lockywolf: For example, I want the evaluator to process "(display"
2020-05-30T05:48:11Z lockywolf: And rightly complain
2020-05-30T05:53:30Z ecraven: lockywolf: you can't. the problem with "(display" is in read, not in evaluate
2020-05-30T05:54:03Z ecraven: well, you can always send "(display" to your repl, but the part that complains about it is the r, not the e
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2020-05-30T05:55:09Z lockywolf: well, the repl does interpret the EOF specifically
2020-05-30T05:56:17Z lockywolf: the problem is that EOF makes the interpreter _both_ interpret everything input _and_ terminate
2020-05-30T05:56:27Z lockywolf: as if you're feeding in a filwe
2020-05-30T05:56:31Z lockywolf: *file
2020-05-30T05:57:14Z ecraven: are you talking about *your* repl or repls in general?
2020-05-30T05:57:42Z lockywolf: Fortran explicitly has a thing called "EOR", that is "end of record"
2020-05-30T05:58:14Z lockywolf: ecraven, well, if we want _any_ decent universal IDE for scheme, it has to be "repls in general"
2020-05-30T05:59:19Z lockywolf: there is something called ASCII 30 ("ASCII Record Separator")
2020-05-30T06:01:11Z lockywolf: ah, I'm wrong
2020-05-30T06:02:35Z lockywolf: in the sense that EOF does not necessarily make a repl terminate
2020-05-30T06:05:42Z lockywolf: In Chibi, EOF works like RET at the end of a proper expression, as an (exit) at an empty expression, and as a proper end-of-file in the middle of an expression
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2020-05-30T06:08:24Z lockywolf_: and EOF is _not_ in the ascii table!
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2020-05-30T06:15:25Z lockywolf_: like, I don't want to be implementing (read-from-and-ide) for every implementation imaginable.
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2020-05-30T07:53:17Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: use file redirection with the repl
2020-05-30T07:53:33Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: like ./scheme < incomplete.scm
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2020-05-30T08:16:21Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, what I actually need is proper support for scheme in org-babel
2020-05-30T08:16:35Z wasamasa: ah yes, the eternal yak shave
2020-05-30T08:16:45Z lockywolf_: what is an eternal yak shave?
2020-05-30T08:17:00Z wasamasa: a syndrome emacs users are suffering from
2020-05-30T08:17:09Z wasamasa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UZFI-8D5uA
2020-05-30T08:18:18Z lockywolf_: I don't understand.
2020-05-30T08:18:37Z wasamasa: the video should explain
2020-05-30T08:18:54Z lockywolf_: I can't watch a video now, I'l try to do that later.
2020-05-30T08:19:31Z wasamasa: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yak_shaving
2020-05-30T08:19:34Z lockywolf_: The way it is done now is basically wrapping everything into a "begin"
2020-05-30T08:20:09Z wasamasa: > 1. Any apparently useless activity which, by allowing you to overcome intermediate difficulties, allows you to solve a larger problem.
2020-05-30T08:20:57Z wasamasa: not sure whether teaching a scheme repl to stop reading with a special char or fixing org-babel is the larger problem
2020-05-30T08:22:02Z lockywolf_: I like being able to write "literate" papers. Doing it with scheme would be handy.
2020-05-30T08:23:44Z lockywolf_: At the moment org wraps every block into a (begin ...), which makes it impossible to use (import).
2020-05-30T08:25:20Z lockywolf_: It is already usable, but not really fit for non-enthusiasts.
2020-05-30T08:25:42Z wasamasa: the thing is that org in general isn't designed to be customized with arbitrary lisp
2020-05-30T08:26:02Z lockywolf_: What do you mean by "customized"?
2020-05-30T08:26:17Z wasamasa: suppose you want to not wrap everything into (begin ...)
2020-05-30T08:26:27Z wasamasa: getting your way with org is way harder than it should be
2020-05-30T08:26:35Z lockywolf_: true
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2020-05-30T08:30:47Z lockywolf_: But I still suspect that there is some way to improve scheme support with not too much overhaul.
2020-05-30T08:32:27Z wasamasa: I've tried something similar with the JS integration and the cleanest option is to directly edit org's sources
2020-05-30T08:32:27Z lockywolf_: ob-fortran just ignores the "value" semantics all together.
2020-05-30T08:32:38Z lockywolf_: of course
2020-05-30T08:32:43Z lockywolf_: but that's not enough
2020-05-30T08:33:34Z wasamasa: normally I can override some variable or function in a more targeted way
2020-05-30T08:33:44Z wasamasa: but the gnarlier and bigger the lisp functions are, the worse it gets
2020-05-30T08:34:07Z lockywolf_: one of the problems seems to be that org really seems to like having both the value semantics and the output semantics
2020-05-30T08:34:52Z lockywolf_: scheme programs have output semantics, scheme functions have (mostly) value semantics, but scheme repl (and scripts) mix those two
2020-05-30T08:35:17Z amirouche: lockywolf_: the accepted scheme workshop papers will be published to arxiv
2020-05-30T08:35:46Z lockywolf_: amirouche, is that good or bad?
2020-05-30T08:35:56Z amirouche: lockywolf_: why would it be bad ? :)
2020-05-30T08:36:07Z lockywolf_: because I can upload a paper to arxiv myself :)
2020-05-30T08:36:14Z amirouche: lockywolf_: I can't
2020-05-30T08:36:17Z lockywolf_: ?
2020-05-30T08:36:37Z amirouche: you need creds to upload something to arxiv? no?
2020-05-30T08:36:56Z lockywolf_: endorsements?
2020-05-30T08:36:59Z amirouche: yes
2020-05-30T08:37:02Z lockywolf_: those are super easy to get
2020-05-30T08:37:13Z amirouche: how?
2020-05-30T08:37:17Z lockywolf_: just email anyone who has endorsement rights
2020-05-30T08:37:48Z amirouche: and those are easy to find?
2020-05-30T08:37:58Z lockywolf_: yeah, find then on the front page of arxiv
2020-05-30T08:38:14Z lockywolf_: every paper has a link "which of the authors are endorsers"
2020-05-30T08:38:43Z lockywolf_: I just iterated over ~10 papers in the domain of interest
2020-05-30T08:38:49Z amirouche: I did not know that, I will reconsider writing a paper on srfi-16 then
2020-05-30T08:38:51Z amirouche: I did not know that, I will reconsider writing a paper on srfi-168 then
2020-05-30T08:39:06Z lockywolf_: OTOH, my paper is still "on hold"
2020-05-30T08:39:37Z amirouche: what latex style did you use? arxiv requires something specific?
2020-05-30T08:40:33Z amirouche: sorry for the dumb question, I can look it on arxiv
2020-05-30T08:41:06Z lockywolf_: the one required by the Scheme Workshop
2020-05-30T08:41:26Z amirouche: oh cool
2020-05-30T08:41:36Z lockywolf_: acmart
2020-05-30T08:41:56Z lockywolf_: with "sigplan" option
2020-05-30T08:42:26Z amirouche: anyway I have srfi-180 (json) to finalize, I will think about that later. Thanks for the tips.
2020-05-30T08:42:38Z lockywolf_: tomorrow is the deadline
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2020-05-30T08:43:50Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, so the problem of reconciling those two models seems to be that what is an org-block? is it a program or a function?
2020-05-30T08:44:08Z lockywolf_: also, what is a return value of a scheme program?
2020-05-30T08:44:52Z lockywolf_: or even better, a return value of a scheme script
2020-05-30T08:45:29Z wasamasa: the last form
2020-05-30T08:45:38Z wasamasa: with the usual evaluation rules applying
2020-05-30T08:46:25Z lockywolf_: that is not consistent with UNIX semantics
2020-05-30T08:46:37Z wasamasa: welcome to lisp
2020-05-30T08:47:20Z wasamasa: being UNIX-incompatible is a feature, not a bug
2020-05-30T08:47:58Z lockywolf_: the "strict and concise" palace of scheme is more of an illusion than a reality
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2020-05-30T08:48:36Z lockywolf_: in particular, the (begin) semantics is murky
2020-05-30T08:49:22Z lockywolf_: so there are apparently two "begin"s
2020-05-30T08:49:31Z wasamasa: ugh, ob-scheme.el uses geiser
2020-05-30T08:49:33Z wasamasa: RIP
2020-05-30T08:50:09Z lockywolf_: yeah, it's pockmarked with leaky abstractions
2020-05-30T08:52:29Z lockywolf_: there is a "top-level" begin, which admits the (import) meta-language, and there is a "functional" begin, which doesn't
2020-05-30T08:54:37Z lockywolf_: in chibi, (define (test) (eval '(import (scheme show)) (show #t "hello")) behaves in a strange way
2020-05-30T08:59:34Z lockywolf_: Like, I don't know how to get the return value of sequence executed with the top-level semantics
2020-05-30T08:59:53Z lockywolf_: if you wrap it in a (begin), it loses the top-level status
2020-05-30T09:00:10Z lockywolf_: if you don't -- there is nothing to receive the value
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2020-05-30T09:00:44Z wasamasa: that's not valid eval usage
2020-05-30T09:00:57Z lockywolf_: bla-blah
2020-05-30T09:00:58Z wasamasa: eval takes one argument for the form and an optional argument for the environment
2020-05-30T09:01:21Z lockywolf_: yeah, I forgoth the (interaction-environment) call
2020-05-30T09:01:25Z lockywolf_: but it still doesn't work
2020-05-30T09:01:32Z lockywolf_: because (import ) is not scheme
2020-05-30T09:03:58Z lockywolf_: so it imports the (scheme show), although it is not actually obliged to do that (nice to do at least that though)
2020-05-30T09:04:16Z lockywolf_: but the second and subsequent calls to (test) still don't see the binding
2020-05-30T09:04:22Z wasamasa: what is (scheme show) supposed to be?
2020-05-30T09:04:43Z lockywolf_: r7rs-red
2020-05-30T09:04:55Z lockywolf_: doesn't matter
2020-05-30T09:04:59Z wasamasa: it does
2020-05-30T09:05:04Z lockywolf_: you can try to import whatever you want
2020-05-30T09:05:07Z wasamasa: if I can't execute your code, I have no idea what you mean
2020-05-30T09:06:00Z lockywolf_: you have used org, right?
2020-05-30T09:06:42Z lockywolf_: you have a sequence of top-level expressions. execute them and return the value of the last form
2020-05-30T09:06:52Z lockywolf_: without running a second interpreter
2020-05-30T09:07:19Z wasamasa: I use org, but rarely the babel parts
2020-05-30T09:10:35Z lockywolf_: maybe (map (lambda (x) (eval x (interaction-environment))) form) is actually what I want?
2020-05-30T09:11:07Z wasamasa: maybe
2020-05-30T09:11:20Z wasamasa: if every evaluation modifies the interaction environment as expected
2020-05-30T09:11:32Z wasamasa: from my brief experimentation that seems to be the case
2020-05-30T09:11:35Z lockywolf_: I'm not sure it is in any sense portable.
2020-05-30T09:13:22Z lockywolf_: I still wonder why I can't use (import) inside a function.
2020-05-30T09:13:58Z wasamasa: try the same with let
2020-05-30T09:15:44Z lockywolf_: same what? (let () (import (scheme show)) (show #t "hello")) ?
2020-05-30T09:16:09Z lockywolf_: still wouldn't work
2020-05-30T09:16:17Z lockywolf_: anyway, forget about it.
2020-05-30T09:16:25Z lockywolf_: thanks for listening to me ranting
2020-05-30T09:16:27Z wasamasa: if you have the same issue with let, then it's clear what's going on
2020-05-30T09:16:37Z wasamasa: let and define create a new scope the import is contained to
2020-05-30T09:16:49Z lockywolf_: it's clear what is going on. (import) is not scheme
2020-05-30T09:16:52Z wasamasa: you cannot have a top-level import in them
2020-05-30T09:17:02Z lockywolf_: yes
2020-05-30T09:17:16Z lockywolf_: but I don't see what this restriction gives us
2020-05-30T09:17:20Z wasamasa: I don't understand how you jump from that to "is not scheme"
2020-05-30T09:17:33Z wasamasa: sure, scheme has funny semantics about the top-level
2020-05-30T09:18:15Z wasamasa: if you want a top-level import, do it at the top-level
2020-05-30T09:18:26Z wasamasa: or failing to do that, begin is another solution
2020-05-30T09:18:32Z wasamasa: or a top-level macro expanding to that
2020-05-30T09:18:47Z lockywolf_: that's what the the srfi-discussions mailing list calls them
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2020-05-30T09:20:04Z lockywolf_: maybe I'm being sloppy here
2020-05-30T09:20:17Z lockywolf_: here's the citation: "The contents of a define-library form are not Scheme but a DSL, whereas the contents of a library form are an export form followed by an import form followed by Scheme"
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2020-05-30T09:20:37Z wasamasa: this is outside of define-library though
2020-05-30T09:20:56Z lockywolf_: yeah, but they tend to speak about the (import) in the same language
2020-05-30T09:21:13Z lockywolf_: like (import) forms are the "library DSL"
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2020-05-30T10:37:26Z lockywolf_: can someone suggest reading on RDF?
2020-05-30T10:44:38Z rain1: what is RDF?
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2020-05-30T10:58:01Z lockywolf_: Some sort of a graph database system
2020-05-30T10:58:44Z lockywolf_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ0njGymNJI
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2020-05-30T12:41:35Z lockywolf__: eh... ob-scheme is messy
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2020-05-30T13:14:25Z amirouche: lockywolf__: what do you want to know about RDF?
2020-05-30T13:14:42Z lockywolf__: just want some introduction
2020-05-30T13:14:45Z amirouche: lockywolf__: it is wip but you take a look at https://github.com/w3c/EasierRDF/
2020-05-30T13:15:30Z amirouche: if you want an introduction to the query language, there is https://data.world/blog/sparql-tutorial/
2020-05-30T13:15:48Z amirouche: it is a very big w3c standard.
2020-05-30T13:16:17Z amirouche: I am busy this week-end but if you ping later after reading the above we more specific question, I can answer them probably.
2020-05-30T13:16:34Z amirouche: s/we more/with more/
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2020-05-30T15:26:22Z Dabian: (format #t "Hello \#Scheme.")
2020-05-30T15:30:47Z aeth: sorry, that's not portable :-p
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2020-05-30T15:35:48Z wasamasa: another #lisp inhabitant?
2020-05-30T15:40:33Z aeth: no, that's a Scheme's format, note the #t
2020-05-30T15:40:38Z aeth: probably Guile?
2020-05-30T15:43:45Z aeth: And afaik the \# would be unnecessary in a CL-like format like the one Airship Scheme's going to have
2020-05-30T15:44:29Z Dabian: aeth: How do I make it portable?
2020-05-30T15:44:42Z aeth: welcome to the trouble of Scheme
2020-05-30T15:45:13Z aeth: looks like SRFI-28 is a totally different kind of format procedure. https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-28/srfi-28.html
2020-05-30T15:45:13Z Dabian: aeth: I guess you're saying:  "I don't", in not so many words? :D
2020-05-30T15:47:00Z aeth: Dabian: Well, Scheme's an ongoing war between two groups of people: implementers who just want to add features to their implementation, and people who want portability.
2020-05-30T15:47:40Z Riastradh: don't forget Stadtler and Waldorf over here
2020-05-30T15:49:31Z Dabian: aeth: I read about that .. .vendors wants to add value to their product ...
2020-05-30T15:50:34Z aeth: Well, the problem with a minimalist language like Scheme is that it's not about value-add, it's about doing very basic things efficiently. For the most part, you need a lot of extensions as built-ins to be efficient.
2020-05-30T15:50:51Z aeth: There are plenty of less minimalist languages where portability is easier.
2020-05-30T15:51:21Z aeth: R6RS tried to fix this, but it was unpopular.
2020-05-30T15:54:05Z aeth: The R7RS approach is different, which is primarily to use a series of SRFIs. To the point where almost everything in R7RS large is a SRFI
2020-05-30T15:54:29Z aeth: https://srfi.schemers.org/
2020-05-30T15:54:46Z aeth: You can think of SRFIs as specifications for potential portability libraries, some of which require implementation support and some don't
2020-05-30T15:55:15Z aeth: https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/schemedoc/srfi-metadata/blob/master/table.html
2020-05-30T15:56:19Z aeth: That's missing a final column that just sums up the checkmarks, which would be very useful to have
2020-05-30T15:56:30Z aeth: that and the ability to sort by that column
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2020-05-30T15:57:11Z aeth: I guess in theory you could SRFIfy the language-specific extensions, too.
2020-05-30T15:57:42Z jcowan: That's why spreadsheet programs were invented, so ou can do this stuff yourself.
2020-05-30T15:58:04Z jcowan: BTW, https://seths.blog/2005/03/dont_shave_that/ explains the original idea behind the term "yak shaving"
2020-05-30T15:58:35Z Dabian: aeth: You were right, I was using guile.  I guess format is particular to Guile, but I am surprised there is no portable way to produce output.
2020-05-30T15:59:07Z jcowan: Format is provided by a SRFI (two SRFIs, actually) that have portable implementations.
2020-05-30T15:59:25Z jcowan: There is also a SRFI for format combinators as opposed to format strings.
2020-05-30T15:59:42Z jcowan: Just because something isn't already packaged for your favorite Scheme doesn't mean you can't use it.
2020-05-30T15:59:52Z Dabian: jcowan: So, it would be possible to make my entry line portable?
2020-05-30T16:00:14Z Dabian: (format #t "Hello \#Scheme.")
2020-05-30T16:00:59Z jcowan: Depending on what features you use.  http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-48 gives you access to the SRFI itself and a link to the Github containing the implementation.
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2020-05-30T16:05:50Z aeth: jcowan: There is only one true spreadsheet, btw. https://orgmode.org/manual/The-Spreadsheet.html#The-Spreadsheet
2020-05-30T16:06:11Z aeth: I've been using it since, idk, 2016, mostly for game-related stuff, since nerdy games (or being nerdy about games) require spreadsheets
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2020-05-30T16:37:00Z jcowan: aeth: Looks like one step towards Lotus Improv / Quantrix Modeler, which is the greatest spreadsheet ever designed.  Unfortunately Improv runs only on 16-bit Windows (if I get any round tuits, I'd like to package it as a Vbox), and Modeler is not only proprietary but US$$$$.
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2020-05-30T16:37:43Z aeth: What's great about org-as-spreadsheet is that everything is .org plaintext, sort of Markdownish.
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2020-05-30T16:40:37Z jcowan: That is indeed a Good Thing.
2020-05-30T16:40:51Z jcowan: Certainly not a spreadsheet, but I have grown very fond of GNU datamash recently.
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2020-05-30T16:52:59Z wasamasa: that name's a joke, right
2020-05-30T16:53:15Z zaifir: jcowan: Thanks, looks pretty cool.
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2020-05-30T17:03:46Z jcowan: I have a program (also waiting for tuits) called 'mung' that is a sort of editor for textual data files, but instead of making typical editor changes, it lets you apply various CLI programs to the whole file.  There is a full undo/redo tree; at the end you get whichever state you are in written to the output file, and a sh script to re-execute the commands that got you here.
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2020-05-30T18:23:45Z jcowan: I just discovered that the copy of the leap seconds table in glibc ends in 2009, since which there have been 3 (THREE) leap seconds.  DOOM!!
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2020-05-30T18:30:33Z zaifir: Ouch.
2020-05-30T18:31:35Z zaifir: Another reason to avoid glibc.
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2020-05-30T18:33:38Z dTal: jcowan: wow
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2020-05-30T18:34:05Z dTal: you gonna submit a patch?
2020-05-30T18:34:13Z jcowan: I doubt if any other library does better.  Most people only care about Posix time (no leap seconds) anyway.
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2020-05-31T04:41:09Z lockywolf_: amirouche, thank you, will have a look
2020-05-31T05:01:21Z lockywolf_: Is (letrec) better than a nested define?
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2020-05-31T05:01:51Z lockywolf_: Only in that nested defines are not guaranteed to be scanned out?
2020-05-31T05:03:46Z Riastradh: letrec (or letrec*, in most newer systems) and internal definitions are semantically equivalent.
2020-05-31T05:04:05Z Riastradh: Use whichever one is clearer.
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2020-05-31T05:05:04Z Riastradh: Personally I tend to prefer internal definitions -- in a set of definitions long enough, the `define' token helps to remind you what's going on without requiring you to line up the columns and see that you're still in the letrec bindings.
2020-05-31T05:07:22Z mdhughes: I prefer to move all nameable procedures up to top level, (foo) calls (%foo-helper), etc., letrec seems cleaner if you're going to have internal procedures.
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2020-05-31T05:58:53Z gwatt: and if you're not forcing R6RS semantics, you can intermingle definitions and non-definitions without resorting to shenanigans
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2020-05-31T06:25:23Z zig: seems like I am going to be doing some racket, racket cs gained support for os threads which is a requiement for my program
2020-05-31T06:26:24Z zig: I will need to put together some r7rs-large lib for that.
2020-05-31T06:27:01Z zig: eventually, I will benchmark all-the-thing and see whether the performance are good enough
2020-05-31T06:28:26Z zig: based on those benchmarks https://blog.racket-lang.org/2020/02/racket-on-chez-status.html
2020-05-31T06:28:42Z zig: most of the time Chez is much faster, but some time it is as fast as racket cs
2020-05-31T06:29:17Z zig: maybe it is the year of scheme on the desktop :D
2020-05-31T06:29:29Z bitmapper: that is Chez without whole program optimization
2020-05-31T06:30:02Z zig: oh no!
2020-05-31T06:31:04Z bitmapper: racket cs performance is nice
2020-05-31T06:31:12Z bitmapper: but it's still lacking compared to chez, sadly
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2020-05-31T06:35:27Z zig: If I was doing this only for myself, I would stick to Chez, but I am in dire need to work professionally using Scheme, and that can not happen if I-build-my-own-scheme, the latter does not look good to governance, whereas an established scheme with an community and conferences helps a lot
2020-05-31T06:35:41Z zig: yeah, the gist of the reason is not technical, sadly.
2020-05-31T06:36:50Z zig: (still some people like jazzscheme, managed to create their own scheme and use it professionally, planet will not align as such for me)
2020-05-31T06:37:08Z zig: (I think)
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2020-05-31T07:00:12Z zig: I will need to think more about it. Re-doing the same thing I have already twice is not fun.
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2020-05-31T09:14:53Z foof`: does the tangerine edition come with a big warning that bytevector-copy! is different in almost every way possible from (scheme base)?
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2020-05-31T10:19:19Z lockywolf: we should write a virus in scheme
2020-05-31T10:19:25Z lockywolf: as a proof of concept
2020-05-31T10:21:15Z wasamasa: "we"
2020-05-31T10:22:54Z wasamasa: that aside, http://web.archive.org/web/20091225100112/http://philosecurity.org/2009/01/12/interview-with-an-adware-author
2020-05-31T10:25:56Z rgherdt: zig: how do you plan to implement r7rs-large on racket? Will you base it on #lang r7rs? If so, be aware of possible interop issues due to immutable pairs/lists: https://github.com/lexi-lambda/racket-r7rs/issues/3
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2020-05-31T10:33:57Z lockywolf: Have the racket people ever planned to implement it?
2020-05-31T10:34:21Z lockywolf: wasamasa, what's so wrong about using "we"? it's a joke
2020-05-31T10:34:47Z rgherdt: I don't think so, since r7rs is not officially supported
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2020-05-31T10:39:10Z wasamasa: lockywolf: it's dishonest to casually include a whole community of people with different opinions to increase your legitimacy
2020-05-31T10:39:24Z wasamasa: lockywolf: but then, going by the same logic, "Let's" jokes are a no-go
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2020-05-31T10:47:01Z lockywolf_: What are "Let's jokes".
2020-05-31T10:47:09Z lockywolf_: Anyway, I don't think that it is dishonest.
2020-05-31T10:47:52Z lockywolf_: As long as it is not a legally binding agreement.
2020-05-31T10:50:24Z lockywolf_: Sorry, "what are \"Let's jokes\"?" was intended to be a question.
2020-05-31T10:52:53Z wasamasa: rudybot: let's
2020-05-31T10:52:57Z rudybot: wasamasa: Let's make the next Purge movie about software developers.
2020-05-31T10:53:06Z wasamasa: rudybot: let's
2020-05-31T10:53:07Z rudybot: wasamasa: is there a function that let's select a region and convert it to one liner?
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2020-05-31T10:53:11Z wasamasa: rudybot: let's
2020-05-31T10:53:12Z rudybot: wasamasa: let's guess what other fantastic toys they have
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2020-05-31T10:54:55Z lockywolf_: rudybot, call/cc
2020-05-31T10:54:56Z rudybot: lockywolf_: is short-circuiting functions (i.e. call/cc) considered bad form in scheme?
2020-05-31T10:55:13Z lockywolf_: hmm, how would I know?
2020-05-31T10:55:27Z lockywolf_: does rudybot use nltk?
2020-05-31T10:55:38Z wasamasa: no
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2020-05-31T11:12:09Z mdhughes: The Purge idea is pretty good. Those Rustaceans have it comin'.
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2020-05-31T11:22:43Z lockywolf: ahh, geiser-chez interface is also not very good
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2020-05-31T11:52:23Z lockywolf: How many typical "programming styles" are in scheme? For example, SICP uses a more traditional defun+nested_defun style, while TSPL prefers define+letrec. Are there any other typical "stylistic options"?
2020-05-31T11:56:50Z rbarraud: Heads-up: Dragon DM-2 ISS docking manoevre starting in  ~25 min.
2020-05-31T11:56:54Z rbarraud: NASA TV has it live.
2020-05-31T11:57:52Z rbarraud: lockywolf: I'd like to see a Big Table of comparisons of the various Lisp and Scheme variants..
2020-05-31T11:58:02Z rbarraud: Probably incl CL variants.
2020-05-31T11:58:32Z rbarraud: Also wondering whether anyone knows here whether Peter Seibel will ever write a PCL 2e?
2020-05-31T11:58:42Z rbarraud: It's been 15 years Pete... :-/
2020-05-31T12:00:29Z lockywolf: rbarraud, what for? none of them is perfect
2020-05-31T12:01:40Z rbarraud: General interest..
2020-05-31T12:01:59Z rbarraud: Reduce my confusion a bit...
2020-05-31T12:02:09Z lockywolf: at the point you make one, it will become obsolete
2020-05-31T12:02:17Z lockywolf: Lisp is like a ball of snow
2020-05-31T12:02:29Z lockywolf: It's both a bane and a blessing.
2020-05-31T12:02:39Z rbarraud: The only relevant bits for prospective work for me would be between SBCL, Racket, MIT-Scheme and perhaps Franz Allegro though
2020-05-31T12:02:52Z lockywolf: Then learn those and stick to them.
2020-05-31T12:03:03Z rbarraud: SBCL, MIT-Scheme.
2020-05-31T12:03:14Z lockywolf: I think, for work the most perspective one is Clojure.
2020-05-31T12:03:17Z rbarraud: I'm mainly sticking to those . although Racket is kinda tmepting.
2020-05-31T12:03:32Z rbarraud: but I suppose in a rather tangential way... and I need to avoid those ;-)
2020-05-31T12:03:33Z lockywolf: And you can check out the "Clojure Common Lisp"
2020-05-31T12:03:40Z rbarraud: Ah yes.
2020-05-31T12:03:45Z rbarraud: Or Kawa...
2020-05-31T12:03:52Z rbarraud: If one must JVM :-/
2020-05-31T12:03:59Z rbarraud: I'd rather not Larry...
2020-05-31T12:04:00Z lockywolf: But honestly, just find which one "does what your want to do"
2020-05-31T12:04:12Z rbarraud: Well they all do everything ;-)
2020-05-31T12:04:29Z rbarraud: I'm writing my own Scheme to do the stuff they can't :-)
2020-05-31T12:04:33Z rbarraud: Slooowly...
2020-05-31T12:04:36Z lockywolf: I mean, in the modern world you have to choose between JVM and CLR
2020-05-31T12:05:01Z rbarraud: Closest existing thing I know of at this stage would be Bone(s) - same guy as Chicken Scheme
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2020-05-31T12:05:18Z rbarraud: CLR tells me it's anything but modern ;-)
2020-05-31T12:05:31Z rbarraud: A relic of a M$-oppressed past :-)
2020-05-31T12:05:34Z lockywolf: .NET for Linux is quite good
2020-05-31T12:05:50Z rbarraud: I am an Anders fan, not a M$ fan though.
2020-05-31T12:05:54Z rbarraud: Mono?
2020-05-31T12:06:08Z lockywolf: now there is an official .net for linux
2020-05-31T12:06:13Z rbarraud: Yeah it's aight I guess
2020-05-31T12:06:15Z lockywolf: called dotNet-core
2020-05-31T12:06:17Z rbarraud: Oh?
2020-05-31T12:06:24Z rbarraud: As in released by M$?
2020-05-31T12:06:26Z lockywolf: yeah
2020-05-31T12:06:32Z rbarraud: OK thanks for that
2020-05-31T12:06:36Z lockywolf: and RedHat has an IDE for it
2020-05-31T12:06:46Z lockywolf: unfortunately, afair, Eclipse-based
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2020-05-31T12:07:02Z rbarraud: I don't usually pay much attention to M$ stuff as they are usually playing catchup and trying to say they invented everything.
2020-05-31T12:07:08Z lockywolf: but I may be mistaken, and it's actually VSCode-based
2020-05-31T12:07:20Z lockywolf: ms is not that bad recently
2020-05-31T12:07:50Z rbarraud: I listened to Gates' 1989 talk to U Waterloo last night - he claimed 'we' discovered you could use RF  interference in an AM Rx to play music from early micro's...
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2020-05-31T12:08:12Z lockywolf: 30 years ago? hm...
2020-05-31T12:08:15Z rbarraud: AFAIK the HomeBreew Computer Club publicised that well pre Gates.
2020-05-31T12:08:44Z rbarraud: Eclipse ... meh.
2020-05-31T12:08:49Z rbarraud: Resource-hog
2020-05-31T12:09:01Z rbarraud: and too Java-centric for my tastes.
2020-05-31T12:09:05Z JITn: I guess he meant we as in humanity.
2020-05-31T12:09:17Z rbarraud: I tried using it on a netbook in January... Ecchhh
2020-05-31T12:09:25Z rbarraud: Worse than CLion
2020-05-31T12:09:34Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-05-31T12:09:57Z rbarraud: He was saying it incontext of M$ being involved at every step of the micro revolution...
2020-05-31T12:10:09Z rbarraud: Disingenuous IMO.
2020-05-31T12:10:31Z rbarraud: A friend and I in NZ discovered it independently in '77 too...
2020-05-31T12:10:44Z rbarraud: didn't take much imagination to extrapolate.
2020-05-31T12:12:46Z rbarraud: I guess my feelings [I shouldn't be so emotively-driven, I ack that...] toward .NET/CLR etc are a bit mixed... I took a month off work unpaid [should have studied it at work and been paid, long story] to learn C#.NET, VS, Avalon...
2020-05-31T12:13:07Z rbarraud: then the j0rb  fell apart for other reasons (not my fault)...
2020-05-31T12:13:10Z rbarraud: Bah.
2020-05-31T12:13:18Z rbarraud: So it left a bit of a bad taste.
2020-05-31T12:13:34Z rbarraud: 2011 that was.
2020-05-31T12:13:59Z rbarraud: I suppose I could tolerate doing a C#.net or perhaps F# j0rb.
2020-05-31T12:14:13Z rbarraud: Anyhoo I'll stop bleating now :-)
2020-05-31T12:14:21Z rbarraud: Dragon has started to dock.
2020-05-31T12:15:04Z rbarraud: Weird seeing a cloudy sky ... but from above :-)
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2020-05-31T12:39:10Z lockywolf: This all reminds me of a biblical (actually even older) saying about being able to spot a grain of sand in your opponent's eye and missing a log in you own one.
2020-05-31T12:39:21Z rbarraud: :-)
2020-05-31T12:39:24Z rbarraud: Fair enough
2020-05-31T12:40:33Z rbarraud: There's a saying about tigers and stripes too...
2020-05-31T12:40:42Z rbarraud: and frogs and serpents and river crossings.
2020-05-31T12:41:07Z rbarraud: I should read Proverbs again... defo time I did.
2020-05-31T12:41:17Z rbarraud: Need a Wisdom Refresh from time to time.
2020-05-31T12:41:20Z lockywolf: I mean, Billie is not a prophet by any standards, but criticizing him for something he did 30 years ago is so petty
2020-05-31T12:41:20Z rbarraud: :-)
2020-05-31T12:41:47Z rbarraud: No, I just meant it is a long-standing problem and pattern of behaviour.
2020-05-31T12:41:58Z lockywolf: moreover, you can use IronScheme
2020-05-31T12:42:24Z rbarraud: I could quote many more examples of MS-renomenclature and assimilation without credit.
2020-05-31T12:43:16Z rbarraud: I saw and heard Bill live in 1993 BTW - in Auckland - Civic Theatre, which was kinda fitting venue...
2020-05-31T12:43:25Z rbarraud: Surreal :-)
2020-05-31T12:45:14Z rbarraud: https://www.eventfinda.co.nz/venue/the-civic-auckland
2020-05-31T12:45:21Z rbarraud: If you see what I mean ;-)
2020-05-31T12:45:36Z rbarraud: I was a keen Windows programmer for some while...
2020-05-31T12:45:45Z rbarraud: And I still like Bill personally.
2020-05-31T12:46:08Z rbarraud: Just not the way M$ behaved for the first 45 odd years...
2020-05-31T12:46:41Z rbarraud: The turning point for me came when I bought and read "Unauthorized Windows 95" (Andrew Schulman).
2020-05-31T12:46:51Z rbarraud: ...and saw what the Plan was.
2020-05-31T12:46:53Z rbarraud: :-/
2020-05-31T12:47:15Z rbarraud: At that point I went Linux/Unix-only as completely as I could.
2020-05-31T12:48:12Z rbarraud: Wow that's weird ... noise pixels on camera...
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2020-05-31T13:13:00Z aeth: To be fair, NT is supposedly cleaner than Windows 9x
2020-05-31T13:13:12Z aeth: So few have seen the Windows 9x mess in two decades
2020-05-31T13:13:51Z rbarraud: Yeah '95 was a Frankenstin
2020-05-31T13:14:02Z rbarraud: Bits of Win32S left in at launch...
2020-05-31T13:14:10Z rbarraud: patches over Win16
2020-05-31T13:14:25Z rbarraud: NT was kinda cleanroomish.
2020-05-31T13:14:35Z aeth: My personal last straw with Windows was Windows ~Bluescreen~ Millennium Edition.
2020-05-31T13:14:38Z rbarraud: Dave Cutler may have had something to do with that fact :-)
2020-05-31T13:14:50Z rbarraud: VAX VMS (chief?) designer
2020-05-31T13:14:55Z rbarraud: ex DEC
2020-05-31T13:14:56Z aeth: XP was the last Windows I used as my main OS, and I've rarely touched Windows since then
2020-05-31T13:15:05Z rbarraud: LOL yeah ME Suxxed.
2020-05-31T13:15:17Z rbarraud: Same.
2020-05-31T13:15:39Z rbarraud: I like things to work - and be able to figure out why not when they don't.
2020-05-31T13:16:00Z rbarraud: And not have to wait for some Marketroid's ego to catch up with a release / patch / SP / ???
2020-05-31T13:16:20Z rbarraud: And not have to pay to be Guinea Pig for their Beta crapware.
2020-05-31T13:16:23Z rbarraud: :-/
2020-05-31T13:16:31Z rbarraud: Not that I'm cynical or anything...
2020-05-31T13:16:33Z rbarraud: :-)
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2020-05-31T13:21:26Z aeth: rbarraud: I'm a bit mad that LGR (who does 80s/90s PC stuff on YouTube) did a "Was Windows ME really that bad" video a while back and said "nah, not really" with a rare build where ME didn't bluescreen daily (if he even used it long enough to bluescreen)
2020-05-31T13:22:05Z rbarraud: Ha! Yeah, I saw that vid link, haven't viewed it yet.
2020-05-31T13:22:14Z aeth: he probably owns at least 6 computers where he could replicate the BSOD experience the rest of us got back in the day...
2020-05-31T13:22:20Z rbarraud: Yup
2020-05-31T13:22:27Z lockywolf quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-05-31T13:22:27Z rbarraud: We should tell him to do that :-)
2020-05-31T13:22:37Z rbarraud: Computer Democracy!
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2020-05-31T13:23:01Z aeth: eventually the Windows ME family computer (I was still a kid back then) was "upgraded" to Windows 2000 for stability.
2020-05-31T13:23:13Z aeth: (more of a sidegrade, but, hey, it didn't BSOD)
2020-05-31T13:25:10Z rbarraud: Yeah 2000 was acceptable.
2020-05-31T13:25:17Z rbarraud: XP was better.
2020-05-31T13:25:26Z rbarraud: More sorted AV-wise...
2020-05-31T13:25:58Z aeth: XP was the last good Windows imo. Well, besides the theme, but you could do the Windows classic theme for a while, maybe through Windows 7.
2020-05-31T13:26:01Z rbarraud: I had the 'pleasure' of running critical NT 3.1, 3.51 servers...
2020-05-31T13:26:11Z rbarraud: on CompaQ servers
2020-05-31T13:26:41Z rbarraud: And doing the backups late @ night after the digitizer ppl went home.
2020-05-31T13:27:15Z rbarraud: They servers would not crash in the backup/verify runs about 80% of the time... :-/
2020-05-31T13:27:35Z mdhughes: I've never understood how anyone can stand using DOS or Windows, any version. It's just absolute garbage, nothing works. I put up with Linux until I got frustrated with their inability to support audio, then went to OS X, and soon I'll be all on BSD. Use things that work.
2020-05-31T13:27:50Z rbarraud: Yup
2020-05-31T13:28:08Z aeth: Good news... Windows is just now adding a package manager.
2020-05-31T13:28:09Z rbarraud: FreeBSD 12.x here.
2020-05-31T13:28:14Z rbarraud: W00t!
2020-05-31T13:28:15Z rbarraud: :-/
2020-05-31T13:28:18Z aeth: Windows should've had a package manager 20 years ago.
2020-05-31T13:28:29Z rbarraud: DLL Hell...
2020-05-31T13:28:44Z rbarraud: How many hours did that steak from my life...?
2020-05-31T13:28:46Z mdhughes: And you look at their programming tools, and it's awful. There's layer after layer of APIs, all mixed together, instead of ever making a clean break.
2020-05-31T13:28:49Z rbarraud: steal
2020-05-31T13:28:57Z rbarraud: Steak? I wish... ;-)
2020-05-31T13:29:11Z rbarraud: It's crapware all the way down.
2020-05-31T13:29:18Z aeth: mdhughes: Microsoft knows that the second they made a clean break is the second someone like Google can come along with a much more compelling product.
2020-05-31T13:29:24Z aeth: And if you have to replace everything anyway...
2020-05-31T13:29:26Z rbarraud: No wonder things are slow, bloated and fragile.
2020-05-31T13:30:03Z aeth: Humanity should've gone with Symbolics.
2020-05-31T13:30:09Z rbarraud: Agreed.
2020-05-31T13:30:16Z rbarraud: Or Lisp Machines...
2020-05-31T13:30:17Z rbarraud: LOL
2020-05-31T13:30:23Z rbarraud: Civil War!!1!!
2020-05-31T13:30:24Z rbarraud: ;-)
2020-05-31T13:30:48Z rbarraud: Anyone here played with Genera on Alpha (or emulated)?
2020-05-31T13:31:00Z aeth: IBM PCs were inevitable as far as hardware goes, but in the process, we lost a dozen better OSes than we wound up with. That and the good OSes usually charging too much, if they were available on PC.
2020-05-31T13:31:25Z rbarraud: Lost better H/W too ... 6809, 68K even...
2020-05-31T13:31:41Z rbarraud: 68K was ~2-3 yo when the PC came out.
2020-05-31T13:31:54Z rbarraud: And it was the obvioust best thing at the time.
2020-05-31T13:32:08Z aeth: well, the IBM PC compatibles were inevitable because (1) Intel was producing better hardware for less money and (2) when they weren't, AMD was.
2020-05-31T13:32:20Z rbarraud: 6809 was well ahead in S/W ease and future-proofing for 8-bit space.
2020-05-31T13:32:21Z aeth: And, heh, it's still going on today, in 2020, but we're currently in the rare #2 situation
2020-05-31T13:32:27Z mdhughes: At the time I was perfectly happy on my Atari ST, and Tramiel may've been delusional to think business would switch to ST, but it was better hardware & OS.
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2020-05-31T13:32:49Z rbarraud: I believe one of the prototypes for PC was 6809 based (along with Jef Raskin's Mac version early on)
2020-05-31T13:33:12Z aeth: x86 is a messy architecture, but Intel's actual hardware tended to make up for that
2020-05-31T13:33:17Z rbarraud: Tramiel ... Grrr!!1!
2020-05-31T13:33:27Z rbarraud: Murderer of decent platforms...
2020-05-31T13:33:47Z rbarraud: Mind oyu from the sound of it his sons were a large part of the Derpage
2020-05-31T13:34:03Z rbarraud: aeth
2020-05-31T13:34:09Z rbarraud: From the 386 onward, sure.
2020-05-31T13:34:32Z aeth: The real question is, if someone other than Intel was given the PC, would they have become what Intel was today or did Intel have something special? Not sure.
2020-05-31T13:34:36Z rbarraud: OTOH Motorola stuff was at least as good at the time.
2020-05-31T13:34:48Z rbarraud: Dunno
2020-05-31T13:34:51Z mdhughes: Atari were facing very short deadlines and support chips that Motorola shipped late, so aiming down was the only way to ship.
2020-05-31T13:34:53Z aeth: I think Intel was really good at what they did for so many years.
2020-05-31T13:35:20Z aeth: And not being on Intel, which were initially not as good as the minicomputers/mainframes, is how we got worse OSes
2020-05-31T13:37:08Z aeth: And the accidental competition with AMD (instead of a monopoly) helped keep x86 going... especially since AMD caused x86-64
2020-05-31T13:37:17Z rbarraud: Hmmmm Do you know which support chips?
2020-05-31T13:37:28Z aeth: Without Intel, we might've been on PowerPC 64 by now or something.
2020-05-31T13:37:33Z mdhughes: By '87 or '88 I had the MiNT UNIX-like on the ST, nice workstation, just no software except what I wrote.
2020-05-31T13:37:56Z rbarraud: AMD / Intel wasn't accidental - the DOD required a second source agreement early on.
2020-05-31T13:38:19Z aeth: rbarraud: Iirc, AMD had to sue to get to be able to make 386-compatibles, though.
2020-05-31T13:38:25Z aeth: The 32-bit, not 16-bit
2020-05-31T13:38:38Z rbarraud: Apple *should* have been enought to drive PPC forward a long way ...
2020-05-31T13:38:44Z rbarraud: But sadly no.
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2020-05-31T13:39:17Z rbarraud: Yeah - I think It only applied to pre-286? or up to?
2020-05-31T13:39:29Z aeth: Every time Intel's down, they're down to AMD, not to another arch. At least, so far. e.g. 2015-2020 should've been ARM's opening but then Ryzen came.
2020-05-31T13:39:47Z rbarraud: ARM v8 might pull ahead
2020-05-31T13:39:52Z aeth: I think we're going to see another 10 years of x86-64 at a minimum, except perhaps for Apple.
2020-05-31T13:40:39Z rbarraud: Sadly, M$ crapware and x86-centricism (x86_64 now I suppose) precludes moving quickly away from Intel/AMD
2020-05-31T13:40:53Z aeth: What Apple should do is do a custom chip with AMD that's half x86-64 and half ARM, if that's feasible at all. It would be if people used higher level languages like Lisps or (heh) Java.
2020-05-31T13:41:18Z rbarraud: If someone put *serious* resource into getting Wine proplerly sorted, OTOH...
2020-05-31T13:41:19Z mdhughes: Next year'll probably be Apple's first ARM Mac laptops. But there's a lot of other ARM systems, like the Pi. Low-end computing's enough for many people, and cheap.
2020-05-31T13:41:31Z aeth: If you have deep pockets, AMD will make whatever chip you want for you, we've seen this with the game consoles.
2020-05-31T13:41:39Z rbarraud: Have they announced the move yet officially?
2020-05-31T13:41:40Z aeth: So I think AMD would definitely make an ARM/x86-64 hybrid
2020-05-31T13:42:00Z rbarraud: I'd like to see them use Ryzen/Epyc
2020-05-31T13:42:04Z rbarraud: for a while @ least
2020-05-31T13:42:30Z rbarraud: True - likewise IBM at least a few years ago (Xbox 360 witness)
2020-05-31T13:42:42Z rbarraud: Or was that Hitachi?
2020-05-31T13:42:46Z rbarraud: Fuzzy recall...
2020-05-31T13:42:58Z aeth: Yeah, other companies do custom hardware, but they don't have an x86-64 license.
2020-05-31T13:43:09Z aeth: Unless Apple moves to VIA :-p
2020-05-31T13:43:47Z rbarraud: LOL
2020-05-31T13:43:56Z rbarraud: I didn't realize VIA was still a Thing.
2020-05-31T13:44:08Z rbarraud: They have amd64 license?
2020-05-31T13:44:14Z rbarraud: Didn't know that.
2020-05-31T13:44:35Z aeth: apparently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_Technologies#Market_trends
2020-05-31T13:44:42Z rbarraud: Tks!
2020-05-31T13:44:44Z aeth: "In January 2008, Via unveiled the VIA Nano, an 11 mm × 11 mm footprint VM-enabled x86-64 processor, which debuted in May 2008, for ultra-mobile PCs."
2020-05-31T13:44:52Z aeth: lol, 2008 was the last time they were relevant
2020-05-31T13:44:58Z aeth: also, lol UMPCs
2020-05-31T13:45:26Z aeth: They failed because they all used VIAs, which have always been trash
2020-05-31T13:45:51Z aeth: the closest to a modern UMPC is https://www.smachz.com/ but that's for gaming with gaming controls, and not a full keyboard
2020-05-31T13:47:04Z aeth: If that had a Blackberry-style keyboard underneath, I'd consider getting one for the novelty factor. I have a "remote control" with a full keyboard and it's pretty convenient
2020-05-31T13:47:44Z aeth: Thumb-typing is easier than with a touchscreen, but it's mainly used for e.g. YouTube, since the hotkeys are things like 'k', where having a full keyboard is the way to go
2020-05-31T13:48:54Z aeth: I guess if that Smachz was popular, there would be a keyboard addon that attaches to the bottom. I remember having one for my Xbox 360 controller back in the day.
2020-05-31T13:48:56Z rbarraud: Interesting.
2020-05-31T13:49:10Z rbarraud: I wonder whether VIA will go back Stateside soonish...
2020-05-31T13:49:31Z rbarraud: China sabre-rattling, and TSMC opening a fab in the US soon.
2020-05-31T13:49:45Z aeth: Probably not. The only reason you'd want x86-64 in a portable form is for something for gaming like the SmachZ, and in that case VIA's not fast enough, but Ryzen Embedded should be fast enough
2020-05-31T13:50:01Z aeth: Otherwise, ARM's more than capable enough
2020-05-31T13:50:22Z rbarraud: MIPS64 ain't dead yet either...
2020-05-31T13:50:33Z rbarraud: Microchip is making a few decent ones...
2020-05-31T13:50:37Z aeth: isn't MIPS mostly used for routers?
2020-05-31T13:50:55Z rbarraud: Not sure whether any have decent VM or large mem capabilities yet though.
2020-05-31T13:51:04Z rbarraud: Yeah that's it's niche if any.
2020-05-31T13:51:16Z rbarraud: Used to be fast Unix workstations... :'(
2020-05-31T13:51:34Z aeth: everything that couldn't compete retreated to embedded/mobile
2020-05-31T13:51:42Z aeth: e.g. nearly every graphics card maker
2020-05-31T13:51:48Z aeth: they're still around, technically
2020-05-31T13:51:51Z rbarraud: If TSMC goes 5 or 3nm in USA, things could be interesting again for VIA and others potentially.
2020-05-31T13:52:18Z aeth: Afaik, TSMC in the US is going to be one process node behind, which will be good enough for US government contracts.
2020-05-31T13:52:46Z aeth: And anything that VIA could do on TSMC, AMD could do better.
2020-05-31T13:53:00Z rbarraud: Well perhaps so initially...
2020-05-31T13:53:17Z aeth: Ryzen was unexpected, but a VIA Ryzen would be black swan level of unexpected.
2020-05-31T13:53:19Z rbarraud: Does AMD even have their own fab?I thought they ised TSMC?
2020-05-31T13:53:46Z rbarraud: Yeah, unlikely to fit their model.
2020-05-31T13:53:54Z aeth: AMD is fabless, but they were contractually tied to the spinoff GloFo as long as GloFo remained competitive, which was until 7nm
2020-05-31T13:53:57Z aeth: iirc
2020-05-31T13:54:04Z rbarraud: amd64 ISA phone, otoh?
2020-05-31T13:54:15Z rbarraud: Hmmm
2020-05-31T13:54:21Z rbarraud: Where is GloFo based?
2020-05-31T13:54:23Z aeth: US
2020-05-31T13:54:29Z rbarraud: Formosa? (Taiwan)
2020-05-31T13:54:31Z aeth: It was part of AMD until a decade ago or so
2020-05-31T13:54:32Z rbarraud: Hmmm
2020-05-31T13:55:00Z aeth: Just because AMD is fabless doesn't mean that anyone could compete with AMD if they just used TSMC. Only Apple has the budget for that (unless Intel went fabless) and Apple doesn't have an x86-64 license.
2020-05-31T13:55:04Z rbarraud: I wonder whether it'd be advantageous for them to have their own fab again
2020-05-31T13:55:26Z aeth: Intel's exclusive fab was a competitive advantage until it wasn't
2020-05-31T13:55:42Z rbarraud: Yeah
2020-05-31T13:55:56Z rbarraud: Don;t they have several?
2020-05-31T13:56:20Z aeth: The problem is each advance is exponentially more expensive afaik, so each generation narrows the field, and Intel and GloFo didn't make the cut to 7 nm (what Intel calls 10 nm)
2020-05-31T13:56:25Z rbarraud: Best to play leapfrog with yourself with 2 or 3 if your pockets allow...?
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2020-05-31T13:56:49Z rbarraud: I thought AMD was at 7 now?
2020-05-31T13:57:00Z rbarraud: with Ryzen gen 3
2020-05-31T13:57:27Z rbarraud: Then there's all the alt material stuff...
2020-05-31T13:57:28Z aeth: Only Samsung and TSMC are 7 nm. Intel is 7 nm (they call it 10 nm), but it's a deeply flawed design that can't scale so they only do it for low volume premium laptop parts just to say that they have 10 nm.
2020-05-31T13:57:46Z rbarraud: Hmmm
2020-05-31T13:57:59Z rbarraud: Looks like I need to watch some HotChips vids again :-)
2020-05-31T13:58:02Z aeth: Odds are, Intel will skip their 10 nm (everyone else's 7 nm) entirely for 7 nm (everyone else's 5 nm?).
2020-05-31T13:58:08Z rbarraud: Been ~3 years or more...
2020-05-31T13:58:25Z rbarraud: A friend in Rotorua used to watch 'em all...
2020-05-31T13:58:31Z rbarraud: I saw a few with him.
2020-05-31T13:58:47Z rbarraud: I did sub to SIGArch for a few years.
2020-05-31T13:59:24Z rbarraud: I wonder what instigated the disparity in node measurements?
2020-05-31T13:59:42Z aeth: They're all fiction
2020-05-31T13:59:46Z rbarraud: You'd think JEDEC would have standardized that...
2020-05-31T13:59:49Z aeth: I'm not sure when it started, maybe in the 20s of nm
2020-05-31T13:59:56Z rbarraud: Hmmm
2020-05-31T14:00:02Z rbarraud: First I'd heard of it.
2020-05-31T14:00:03Z aeth: It's all about density as if the transitor had kept shrinking, not actually describing a real physical measurement
2020-05-31T14:00:14Z rbarraud: Ah OK
2020-05-31T14:00:25Z aeth: So density is going up as if everything's on schedule, but the transitor isn't actually the size of 7 nm
2020-05-31T14:00:53Z rbarraud: Right.
2020-05-31T14:01:21Z rbarraud: I wonder whether Conway and Meade have said anything on it?
2020-05-31T14:01:21Z aeth: I'm guessing at some point Intel will skip a node to be like everyone else, for marketing.
2020-05-31T14:01:23Z rbarraud: :-/
2020-05-31T14:01:26Z aeth: Maybe they'd skip 7 nm for 5 nm.
2020-05-31T14:01:36Z aeth: (i.e. brand their 7 nm as 5 nm, like TSMC)
2020-05-31T14:02:00Z rbarraud: 3D will confuse things nicely no doubt also.
2020-05-31T14:02:16Z rbarraud: All to oconfusing.
2020-05-31T14:02:27Z rbarraud: Marketing blurs the truth.
2020-05-31T14:02:29Z rbarraud: Bah
2020-05-31T14:02:41Z aeth: I mean, welcome to hardware.
2020-05-31T14:03:17Z aeth: "Ryzen 9 3900X" "Ryzen 9 3950X" "Ryzen Threadripper 3970X"
2020-05-31T14:04:07Z aeth: And the laptops are always one gen ahead of what they should be in their name, i.e. the same generation as those desktop parts are "Ryzen 9 4900H", etc.
2020-05-31T14:04:16Z aeth: Intel's not better.
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2020-05-31T14:04:43Z aeth: Why did they suddenly decide to use i9's instead of i7's? I guess because they didn't want to raise the price for a given tier, so it's a stealth price increase as their manufacturing has gotten more difficult
2020-05-31T14:05:50Z aeth: (And Intel's not better with laptop parts with way more impressive sounding model names than they should be... e.g. dual core i7's a few years ago when all desktop i7's had been quad cores for years.)
2020-05-31T14:07:28Z rbarraud: 4min to dock
2020-05-31T14:08:18Z rbarraud: i10's now even...
2020-05-31T14:08:30Z rbarraud: Intel is way too confusing.
2020-05-31T14:08:47Z rbarraud: I don't know why they have so many SKU's...
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2020-05-31T14:09:44Z rbarraud: Yeah dual core i3, i3 suxxx.
2020-05-31T14:10:03Z rbarraud: I suspect a lot of ppl will have bought those and been disappointed.
2020-05-31T14:10:24Z rbarraud: I have an i3 lappie with 4 HT cores - fortunately.
2020-05-31T14:10:30Z rbarraud: Among others.
2020-05-31T14:10:56Z rbarraud: I guess we're a bit OT here eh ...
2020-05-31T14:11:11Z rbarraud: mind you, Intel is ... Scheming ;-)
2020-05-31T14:11:16Z aeth: thanks for the reminder
2020-05-31T14:11:21Z rbarraud: ALong with most/all Marketroids.
2020-05-31T14:11:21Z aeth: (about the docking)
2020-05-31T14:11:24Z rbarraud: heheh
2020-05-31T14:11:29Z rbarraud: V near now.
2020-05-31T14:11:34Z rbarraud: NASA TV FTW.
2020-05-31T14:11:37Z aeth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIZsnKGV8TE
2020-05-31T14:11:44Z aeth: same feed, just on SpaceX's channel
2020-05-31T14:11:58Z rbarraud: Arm's out.
2020-05-31T14:12:13Z rbarraud: Yeah I wondered whether there was any diff :-)
2020-05-31T14:12:19Z rbarraud: Thanks
2020-05-31T14:12:25Z rbarraud: for the alt URL
2020-05-31T14:12:34Z aeth: the diff is (1) NASA has a logo in the upper right on their feed and (2) during the launch yesterday NASA was behind by a few seconds, maybe up to 10
2020-05-31T14:12:43Z aeth: and (3) NASA had about half the viewers on YT
2020-05-31T14:12:55Z rbarraud: AOS in 26:45 here...
2020-05-31T14:13:02Z rbarraud: WLG, NZ
2020-05-31T14:13:14Z rbarraud: Wish I had my S-Band gear up already :-/
2020-05-31T14:14:13Z rbarraud: Man that's getting close - looks too fast even @ 0.1m/s!
2020-05-31T14:14:41Z rbarraud: Anyone else Hams in here?
2020-05-31T14:14:47Z rbarraud: ZL1RWB me
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2020-05-31T14:29:49Z weinholt: rbarraud, SA6CJK here
2020-05-31T14:29:59Z rbarraud: 73! :-)
2020-05-31T14:30:13Z rbarraud: Read you 5x9 ;-)
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2020-05-31T14:30:54Z weinholt: indeed :)
2020-05-31T14:31:16Z rbarraud: I'm going to venture outside soon as AOS is ~7 min away here... hoping for visibility.
2020-05-31T14:31:42Z rbarraud: Might be sunlit at that alt ... ~3am local heree, sunrise 3-4 h away still.
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2020-05-31T14:52:06Z rbarraud: Bah - 7/8 cloud cover .. not seen.
2020-05-31T14:52:17Z rbarraud: So with that I;m off to bed.
2020-05-31T14:52:31Z rbarraud: Nite, y'all! :-)
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2020-05-31T17:34:24Z zig: rgherdt: I do no need mutable pairs, also my goal was and will never be 100% compatibility ;)
2020-05-31T17:35:11Z zig: somewhat offtopic, do you know someone selling rack servers in France?
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2020-05-31T17:38:03Z Riastradh: Selling the physical servers themselves, or renting servers in a data center?
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2020-05-31T17:53:44Z zig: buying a physical server
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2020-05-31T18:12:45Z jcowan: "Windows 95 was a 32-bit shell on top of a 16-bit operating system designed for an 8-bit computer based on a 4-bit chip, designed by a two-bit company that doesn’t care one bit about its users."
2020-05-31T18:13:48Z [rg]: wow
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2020-05-31T23:41:29Z zaifir: Anyone know how to indent a (columnar ...) form in SRFI 159 formatting combinators? (aka `fmt', to CHICKEN users)
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