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2020-02-01T00:39:46Z jcowan: erkin: AFAIK all of 107, 108, 109 (literals) and 163, 164 (arrays) exist only on Kawa.
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2020-02-01T07:51:29Z zig: o/
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2020-02-01T09:08:41Z zig: re self-publishing book, I discovered https://leanpub.com, the authors keep 80% of the royalities and it is possible to share it between several contributors. You keep the rights on the book, and you can publish it somewhere else.
2020-02-01T09:08:55Z zig: the only problem is that it does not work with grammarly.
2020-02-01T09:09:56Z zig: editing is done in superset of markdown, and in the paid plan one can use github to store the files.
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2020-02-01T19:53:12Z ecraven: has anyone played around with geometric algebra in Scheme?
2020-02-01T20:00:13Z daviid: ecraven: I did, and I  not the only one :), so did lloda and the aiscm project, probably others did to ..
2020-02-01T20:02:23Z ecraven: nice ;)
2020-02-01T20:04:01Z daviid: ecraven: or maybe not :), I read [geometric] algebra and thought you meant matrix calculus and friends ... but maybe you refer to soething else?
2020-02-01T20:04:21Z ecraven: this is what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_algebra
2020-02-01T20:04:34Z ecraven: if your library has this, it should have bivectors, and trivectors, and things like that
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2020-02-01T20:11:46Z ecraven: the wikipedia page is not a very useful introduction to GA though..
2020-02-01T20:11:52Z daviid: wikipedia is very slow, so far i still can't access the page ... loading ...
2020-02-01T20:12:22Z ecraven: reading this reminded me of GA: https://marctenbosch.com/quaternions/
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2020-02-01T20:44:58Z aeth: Oh, so basically this popping up on HN yesterday... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22200260
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2020-02-01T20:45:28Z aeth: Yeah, it's a terrible idea. Top comment on HN explains why, like in the good old days when every top HN (and Reddit) comment was a contrarian one for the immediate counterpoint.
2020-02-01T20:45:44Z aeth: In case the order changes. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22202049
2020-02-01T20:47:09Z aeth: You'll see in the first three comments that quaternions are a compromise between understandability (1st one points out that GA is hard for most programmers) and ease (2nd comment points out the easiest) that is space efficeint (third comment points out it's 4 values vs. 9-12 in a matrix)
2020-02-01T20:47:55Z aeth: Of course, if it's just a Scheme project for you and you alone, feel free to explore any path, but generally you only want to do one thing novel if you ever want anyone else to read it and the use of Scheme itself is novel. IMO.
2020-02-01T20:48:49Z aeth: s/efficeint/efficient/
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2020-02-01T22:07:42Z ZombieChicken: Hello. Any suggestions for a scheme implementation that is 1) reasonably lightweight, and 2) has a solid FFI (that preferably doesn't require the code to be compiled)? I'm currently using racket, but finding the RAM usage is more than what I care for, and just generally want something that doesn't feel like it includes libkitchensink
2020-02-01T22:11:51Z zig: chez?
2020-02-01T22:12:50Z boycottg00gle: gauche+c-wrapper?
2020-02-01T22:13:13Z ZombieChicken: honestly not sure why I didn't think of Chez. I was looking at Chicken, but it needs to compile for the FFI
2020-02-01T22:13:18Z ZombieChicken: never messed with gauche
2020-02-01T22:14:49Z zig: maybe gambit, but I am wating (!) for v5
2020-02-01T22:15:28Z zig: (I am not sure about cffi in gambit tho)
2020-02-01T22:16:18Z zig: on an unrelated note: what do you think about a mailling hosted at sourcehut? to replace the newsgroup (or reddit)
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2020-02-01T22:17:40Z zig: I was thinking about creating a schemers/log@sr.ht mailling where anybody can drop its last project, ideas etc... My hope is that it is a bit less "formal"
2020-02-01T22:17:42Z ZombieChicken: mailing list are easier to join and read imo
2020-02-01T22:18:07Z zig: also there is moderation
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2020-02-01T22:18:49Z zig: the post you do no need to be have an account....
2020-02-01T22:19:35Z zig: but to receive the ALL the message you need an account that can be free.
2020-02-01T22:24:17Z zig: it reduce google dependance and might attract more users.
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2020-02-01T22:25:47Z ZombieChicken: Mind helping me sort out a compile issue with Chez?
2020-02-01T22:32:27Z ZombieChicken: nvm. Think I'm going to just deal with the compile issue and work with Chicken. Chez isn't wanting to compile for me
2020-02-01T22:35:25Z grobe0ba: ZombieChicken: what OS are you on?
2020-02-01T22:35:39Z ZombieChicken: Linux. I was getting some weird linking issues
2020-02-01T22:35:53Z ZombieChicken: one was referencing cur_term, which was apparently undefined?
2020-02-01T22:35:59Z grobe0ba: I moved away from Chicken due to it being substantially slower at run-time, and have had no issues with Chez at all.
2020-02-01T22:36:06Z grobe0ba: what distro?
2020-02-01T22:36:18Z ZombieChicken: Gentoo
2020-02-01T22:36:32Z ZombieChicken: so I /should/ have all the libs, headers, tools, ect, needed to get it working
2020-02-01T22:37:02Z grobe0ba: hmmm. can you pastebin the failure from the build?
2020-02-01T22:37:04Z ZombieChicken: as far as Chicken's speed; I'm not needing something that will be blazing fast (at least not that I'm aware of atm)
2020-02-01T22:37:15Z grobe0ba: also, are you building from portage or on your own?
2020-02-01T22:37:16Z ZombieChicken: I deleted the tarball and dir already
2020-02-01T22:37:20Z ZombieChicken: on my own
2020-02-01T22:37:35Z ZombieChicken: far as I know there isn't an ebuild for chez scheme
2020-02-01T22:38:16Z grobe0ba: i don't run gentoo (or linux at all anymore), so i wouldn't know. :)
2020-02-01T22:38:45Z ZombieChicken: I have chicken compiled and working. The only issue it the need to compile before using the FFI, which is annoying
2020-02-01T22:38:47Z grobe0ba: i've had no problems building on CentOS, Alpine, Debian, Ubuntu, or OpenBSD with 9.5.2 or the master branch from git recently.
2020-02-01T22:39:11Z ZombieChicken: I'm betting it's looking for a lib somewhere it shouldn't be
2020-02-01T22:39:23Z ZombieChicken: but oh well; if Chicken doesn't work, then I'll revisit
2020-02-01T22:39:27Z grobe0ba: chicken is compiled, period, iirc.
2020-02-01T22:39:47Z ZombieChicken: Chicken does have an interpreter afaik
2020-02-01T22:39:50Z grobe0ba: it may have a wrapper around the scripts, but i'm pretty sure it has to compile everything first, since it is based on converting Scheme -> C
2020-02-01T22:40:03Z grobe0ba: it implements your code plus it's runtime in a C file, then compiles that.
2020-02-01T22:41:08Z ZombieChicken: Well, there is chicken's 'csi' bin, which, according to the manpage, is " `csi' is the CHICKEN interpreter."
2020-02-01T22:41:40Z ZombieChicken: which does hand you a REPL
2020-02-01T22:41:41Z grobe0ba: i've no idea. like i said though, i moved away from it. it wasn't the it wasn't blazingly fast, it was incredibly slow compared to anything else.
2020-02-01T22:43:28Z grobe0ba: interesting. i'm actually cloning gambit right now, just to take a poke at it. i don't see much chance of anything supplanting Chez for me though. It has been absolutely rock solid.
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2020-02-01T22:43:56Z grobe0ba: i seem to remember chicken crashing a lot for me. improper bounds checking on arrays in the compiled programs, i think it was.
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2020-02-01T22:45:08Z grobe0ba: mind, this was years ago. there have (possibly) been improvments.
2020-02-01T22:46:46Z ZombieChicken: Probably. Chicken is up to version 5, just so you know
2020-02-01T22:47:58Z grobe0ba: i'm actually cloning the repo for it right now to see if it has gotten any better. i like keeping my options open.
2020-02-01T22:49:06Z wasamasa: improper bounds checking is what happens if you compile with -O4 or higher
2020-02-01T22:50:02Z wasamasa: the compiler then assumes that your code is perfectly bug-free and optimizes accordingly
2020-02-01T22:50:09Z wasamasa: which is fine for benchmarks, everything else not so much
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2020-02-01T22:51:55Z grobe0ba: looking at my older makefile using chicken, it was using -O5, however, and this is from memory only, it was crashing with -O0 as well. there was a problem with the transformation process to C itself.
2020-02-01T22:52:19Z grobe0ba: the code also ran perfectly under Chez
2020-02-01T22:52:24Z grobe0ba: with no errors or warnings.
2020-02-01T22:53:14Z wasamasa: discovering embarassing errors in the scheme implementation is a rite of passage
2020-02-01T22:53:17Z wasamasa: been there, done that
2020-02-01T22:53:31Z wasamasa: I can help with handing in bugs if you want to revisit that
2020-02-01T22:59:43Z grobe0ba: i appreciate the offer, but the program in question is simply a toy, meant to provide a baseline between implementations of various programming languages in terms of speed.
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2020-02-01T23:02:26Z pjb: ZombieChicken: consider bigloo scheme.  It s said to have one of the best FFI hands down.
2020-02-01T23:02:40Z wasamasa: the big question with that approach is whether it's representative of the actual workload you're going to use your favored implementation for
2020-02-01T23:03:25Z wasamasa: anyway, I'm biased, I didn't choose CHICKEN for its speed, but for its community and breadth of existing code
2020-02-01T23:03:41Z wasamasa: if speed ends up being a concern, hotspots can be resolved with a dash of C
2020-02-01T23:07:28Z grobe0ba: wasamasa: whilst still being a toy, it is performing the workload required in general. it processes a list of characters, a through z, recursively appending a letter onto an output string, to a specified depth of recursion, then outputs it.
2020-02-01T23:07:55Z ZombieChicken: pjb: thanks for the suggestion
2020-02-01T23:08:00Z grobe0ba: making lists of, e.g., aaa, aab, aac... aba, abb, abc... zza, zzb, zzc... zzz
2020-02-01T23:08:21Z wasamasa: hm, sounds like you're benchmarking the garbage collector
2020-02-01T23:08:45Z grobe0ba: nothing so specific as that. i'm benchmarking its ability to create those strings in a timely manner.
2020-02-01T23:09:04Z wasamasa: no, I mean, you could get drastically different performance by adding some arcane switches to the command line
2020-02-01T23:09:08Z grobe0ba: the end result is used as a filter by `sort -u' to determine whether usernames are used.
2020-02-01T23:09:19Z grobe0ba: very silly, but surprisingly intensive.
2020-02-01T23:09:30Z wasamasa: kind of like what well paid experts do with java programs :D
2020-02-01T23:09:59Z grobe0ba: god, i hate java. mmm, here are the ones i was using for chicken: csc -O5 -optimize-leaf-routines -f -inline -specialize -lfa2
2020-02-01T23:10:26Z grobe0ba: i'm sure i could have passed even more onto gcc/clang, but i figured that would do for it.
2020-02-01T23:11:34Z wasamasa: http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Using%20the%20compiler#runtime-options
2020-02-01T23:12:36Z grobe0ba: interesting. i didn't even realize it had runtime options like that. i thought you meant compile-time stuff.
2020-02-01T23:12:45Z wasamasa: both are possible
2020-02-01T23:13:12Z wasamasa: anyway, this is getting super specific and should better be taken to #chicken because I have never touched these switches
2020-02-01T23:14:31Z grobe0ba: indeed. :P thanks for the info to follow up on!
2020-02-01T23:16:26Z wasamasa: maybe setting a more generous initial heap size will help, maybe not
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2020-02-01T23:21:54Z thenori: anybody ever encountered issues install mit-scheme's documentation?
2020-02-01T23:22:36Z thenori: the recommended 'make install-info install-html install-pdf' and the conventional 'make install' both throw error 1
2020-02-01T23:23:03Z thenori: even 'make' throws error 1
2020-02-01T23:23:27Z thenori: "/bin/bash: makeinfo: command not found"
2020-02-01T23:23:55Z grobe0ba: thenori: install makeinfo and you'll be golden
2020-02-01T23:24:34Z grobe0ba: i don't use it so i can't give you a package name to install, but it's as simple as that.
2020-02-01T23:24:52Z grobe0ba: you may also be able to disable building the documentation. haven't used mit scheme though, so i'm not familiar with it's build system.
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2020-02-01T23:33:50Z thenori: cool thx
2020-02-01T23:35:22Z grobe0ba: np
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2020-02-02T01:13:20Z safinaskar: is there some typed scheme, where code is also typed? i. e. where code, representing expression, and code, representing type, have different types?
2020-02-02T01:14:03Z safinaskar: (also, is there some irc channel for discussing small programming languages? i. e. channel for people who know lots of programming languages?)
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2020-02-02T07:52:32Z mdhughes: Chicken's compiled speed is quite good, don't take the very slow interpreter as a baseline: https://mdhughes.tech/2019/04/23/how-fast-is-my-scheme/
2020-02-02T07:55:09Z mdhughes: I need to rerun that test with Gambit & Gerbil, because they'll blow Chicken out of the water I suspect.
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2020-02-02T07:57:31Z mdhughes: Chez is awesome because the script is JIT-compiled, so you can do real work at the REPL.
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2020-02-02T09:47:57Z ecraven: aeth: I understand that argument, but iff GA is a "better" API for whatever you need, it might be worth using it.. of course, hardware always wanting matrices is a valid efficiency argument, but if GA is used widely enough, maybe that changes at some point ;)
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2020-02-02T10:27:47Z zig: "you only want to do one thing novel, if you ever want anyone else to read it and the use of Scheme itself is novel" I have the same feeling about how to best push new idea: one at a time.  That is unfortunate.
2020-02-02T10:30:04Z zig: that reminds me of a "cognitive load theory", I paraphrase: "People learn more effectively when they can build on what they already understand"
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2020-02-02T11:01:17Z zig: It would be best to reduce the scope of my book on okvs, and before that, I shall finish the JSON SRFI.
2020-02-02T11:05:09Z zig: re cognitive load theory is real thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load that is the lineage of the idea behind "a person can retain seven chunks of ideas at the same time".
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2020-02-02T12:10:24Z pablo[m]3: hey peeps. does anyone knows where I can find some academic material on polymorphism in lisp dialects?
2020-02-02T12:14:30Z wasamasa: I'm not sure what you mean
2020-02-02T12:14:40Z wasamasa: multiple dispatch?
2020-02-02T12:14:54Z wasamasa: aka generic functions
2020-02-02T12:15:46Z wasamasa: in CL and elisp it's defgeneric/defmethod, in clojure it's defmulti/defmethod, in scheme, whatever you like
2020-02-02T12:16:05Z pablo[m]3: <wasamasa "aka generic functions"> preciselly
2020-02-02T12:16:35Z wasamasa: I imagine the literature you'll find will concentrate on CLOS
2020-02-02T12:16:55Z wasamasa: because that's what the aforementioned use or are inspired by
2020-02-02T12:17:25Z pablo[m]3: * precisely
2020-02-02T12:17:58Z wasamasa: I've found a paper: http://bugs.call-cc.org/export/28337/release/4/fast-generic/doc/p45-tessman.pdf
2020-02-02T12:18:12Z wasamasa: which is used for http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/fast-generic
2020-02-02T12:20:06Z pablo[m]3: <wasamasa "I've found a paper: http://bugs."> thanks! thats a great starting point!
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2020-02-02T14:14:25Z zig: pablo[m]3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_the_Metaobject_Protocol
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2020-02-02T16:29:12Z zig: What is the difference between exact arithmetic like 1/2 and Python's Decimal (https://docs.python.org/3.8/library/decimal.html)?
2020-02-02T16:34:32Z wasamasa: you can use any denominator with exact arithmetic
2020-02-02T16:34:38Z pjb: don't put anything around links, it breaks irc clients.
2020-02-02T16:34:41Z pjb: https://docs.python.org/3.8/library/decimal.html
2020-02-02T16:34:49Z wasamasa: with decimal you're limited to whatever power of ten you've picked
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2020-02-02T16:35:30Z pjb: So basically, base-ten long-float numbers.
2020-02-02T16:35:58Z pjb: wasamasa: what's the representation of Decimal(1)/Decimal(7)
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2020-02-02T16:36:53Z pjb: The example on that page gives: Decimal('0.142857')
2020-02-02T16:36:57Z pjb: (coerce 1/7 'long-float) -> 0.14285714285714285D0
2020-02-02T16:37:01Z pjb: but 1/7 is exact.
2020-02-02T16:37:15Z wasamasa: > Unlike hardware based binary floating point, the decimal module has a user alterable precision (defaulting to 28 places) which can be as large as needed for a given problem:
2020-02-02T16:37:43Z pjb: wasamasa: yes. It's like clisp long-float + base ten.
2020-02-02T16:37:47Z zig: Hence, it is not exact.
2020-02-02T16:37:53Z pjb: But it still is inexact.
2020-02-02T16:38:07Z Riastradh: zig: Not every rational n/d is of the form s * 10^e for integers s and e.
2020-02-02T16:38:39Z zig: got it, thanks.
2020-02-02T16:39:04Z pjb: So the advantage of Decimal is bounded memory.  The inconvenient is the same as with float; limited precision (even if you can adjust it).  The advantage of ratio is exact precision. The inconvenient is unbounded memory usage, and some things cannot be computed (sqrt 2)
2020-02-02T16:40:07Z pjb: And indeed, the reason why programmers eventually used base 2 is that the problem you get with base 2 also appear with any other base (even if they're less surprising when you use base ten).
2020-02-02T16:41:32Z zig: pjb: base 2? what do you mean? how is it related to decimals?
2020-02-02T16:44:41Z pjb: #b101010 -> 42
2020-02-02T16:44:53Z pjb: base 2 <-> base ten
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2020-02-02T19:02:26Z erkin: I'm on GNU/Linux and my version of MIT/GNU Linux was compiled with --with-x but (enumerate-graphics-types) returns nil
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2020-02-02T19:04:13Z erkin: Release 10.1.10, although I don't see X11 in the banner.
2020-02-02T19:08:36Z nisstyre: erkin: it returns () for me (which is what you meant I guess?)
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2020-02-02T19:10:13Z erkin: Yeah, it's supposed to return (x)
2020-02-02T19:10:34Z drakonis1: https://video.fosdem.org/2020/AW1.125/guile2020.webm
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2020-02-02T19:12:52Z erkin: I'm beginning to think the Arch Linux version is badly packaged.
2020-02-02T19:12:59Z erkin: It doesn't come with man or info pages either.
2020-02-02T19:13:25Z nisstyre: erkin: yes I have Arch as well
2020-02-02T19:19:34Z erkin: I'm building the texinfo files from source.
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2020-02-02T19:34:43Z hidetora: What resource do you recommend to get better at scheme, after SICP?
2020-02-02T19:35:15Z hidetora: and what are some interesting OSS projects to study?
2020-02-02T19:40:56Z erkin: To get better at Scheme, TSPL v4.
2020-02-02T19:40:59Z erkin: https://scheme.com/tspl4/
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2020-02-02T19:43:16Z erkin: If you like the style of The Little Schemer, I recommend The Seasoned Schemer (although I haven't finished it myself).
2020-02-02T19:44:48Z erkin: A lot of Scheme books focus on teaching computer science concepts instead of teaching you the language itself, which I think is a good idea.
2020-02-02T20:06:03Z erkin: nisstyre: Turns out the Arch package doesn't even install the X11 plugin.
2020-02-02T20:06:20Z erkin: And yet it install imail?
2020-02-02T20:06:38Z erkin: And somehow it ignores all .info files *except* mit-scheme-imail.info.gz
2020-02-02T20:08:44Z nisstyre: erkin: you should be able to just modify the PKGBUILD after checking it out with svn and then enable it
2020-02-02T20:08:56Z nisstyre: maybe ask the maintainer or whatever to update it I guess
2020-02-02T20:09:01Z nisstyre: file a bug
2020-02-02T20:09:05Z erkin: I'm actually trying to do that but it sent me on a yak shave.
2020-02-02T20:10:13Z erkin: I had to directly add the maintainer's key to my keyring, but it can't connect to pgp.mit.edu because it turns out my port 11371 is blocked, so I'm refreshing the keyring through port 80.
2020-02-02T20:10:47Z nisstyre: fantastic
2020-02-02T20:10:48Z erkin: This key https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=0xE3AA82D81B352C01&op=index
2020-02-02T20:10:56Z nisstyre: you can ignore the pgp key check if you really want
2020-02-02T20:11:00Z nisstyre: --skippgpcheck or something
2020-02-02T20:11:10Z nisstyre: yeah that's it
2020-02-02T20:11:22Z nisstyre: obviously not ideal but...
2020-02-02T20:11:44Z nisstyre: PGP is awful
2020-02-02T20:12:01Z erkin: No doubt
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2020-02-02T20:19:03Z erkin: Beautiful. There was no error, but makepkg exited with "a failure occurred in build()"
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2020-02-02T20:29:21Z erkin: Okay so, the problem is that the PKGBUILD cds into src and runs make install there, instead of running make install from the basedir, which would recursively build src and doc.
2020-02-02T20:29:34Z erkin: That explains why documentation gets ignored, but not why x11 plugin isn't built.
2020-02-02T20:31:20Z nisstyre: maybe you have to explicitly enable it
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2020-02-02T20:35:11Z erkin: ./configure suggests that it's enabled by default, but I still added --enable-x11
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2020-02-02T20:41:31Z erkin: The makefile recursively runs (cd $${SUBDIR}; $(MAKE) $@ ) || exit 1; and I think something's triggering the exit.
2020-02-02T20:42:30Z erkin: Riastradh: What's `no-mit-scheme-needed'?
2020-02-02T20:43:06Z Riastradh: erkin: ?
2020-02-02T20:43:11Z erkin: In MIT/GNU Scheme makefile
2020-02-02T20:43:31Z erkin: You're the maintainer of MIT/GNU Scheme, right?
2020-02-02T20:43:55Z Riastradh: Oh, that's meant for the binary distribution of MIT Scheme, which doesn't require an existing MIT Scheme to compile the Scheme source code.
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2020-02-02T20:44:21Z erkin: I'm getting /bin/sh: line 2: no-mit-scheme-needed: command not found
2020-02-02T20:44:38Z Riastradh: That suggests that maybe you did `make clean' in the binary distribution?
2020-02-02T20:44:39Z erkin: During the `(cd microcode && make all)' stage.
2020-02-02T20:45:03Z erkin: That's strange.
2020-02-02T20:45:33Z erkin: I'm doing cd mit-scheme/doc; ./configure foo; cd ../src; ./configure bar; cd ‥; make
2020-02-02T20:45:53Z Riastradh: What is the distribution you're using, and what is the exact sequence of commands you issue?
2020-02-02T20:46:12Z erkin: Arch Linux, I'm trying to build from source because the official package skips the doc dir.
2020-02-02T20:46:21Z Riastradh: No, I mean the MIT Scheme tarball?
2020-02-02T20:46:47Z erkin: https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mit-scheme/stable.pkg/10.1.10/mit-scheme-10.1.10-x86-64.tar.gz
2020-02-02T20:46:57Z Riastradh: OK, and the exact sequence of commands?
2020-02-02T20:47:12Z erkin: https://clbin.com/9U8Ao
2020-02-02T20:47:37Z erkin: Where $pkgname-$pkgver expands to mit-scheme-10.1.10
2020-02-02T20:47:43Z Riastradh: Can you share the complete transcript of output?
2020-02-02T20:47:55Z erkin: Sure, let me clean it up.
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2020-02-02T20:48:17Z Riastradh: And there's nothing that runs `make clean', or anything right?
2020-02-02T20:48:23Z erkin: Yeah, that's all.
2020-02-02T20:49:32Z erkin: https://clbin.com/Ob2i8
2020-02-02T20:50:43Z erkin: It can't find no-mit-scheme-needed, but continues with the build but the exit code 127 triggers the exit 1, from what I can tell.
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2020-02-02T20:58:23Z Riastradh: Can you paste mit-scheme-10.1.10/src/Makefile after you run configure there?
2020-02-02T20:58:50Z Riastradh: Or just tell me what `default-target' depends on in it?
2020-02-02T20:58:55Z Riastradh: It _should_ have
2020-02-02T20:58:58Z erkin: https://clbin.com/UjR5M
2020-02-02T20:59:01Z Riastradh: default-target: compile-microcode
2020-02-02T20:59:10Z Riastradh: OK, that looks reasonable.
2020-02-02T20:59:11Z erkin: Yup, default-target: compile-microcode
2020-02-02T20:59:16Z Riastradh: Oh!
2020-02-02T20:59:27Z Riastradh: You're running make outside src.
2020-02-02T20:59:34Z Riastradh: I didn't even realize there was a makefile there...
2020-02-02T20:59:46Z Riastradh: Just run make in doc and src separately.
2020-02-02T20:59:52Z erkin: Huh
2020-02-02T21:00:10Z erkin: Isn't it supposed to run make recursively in doc and src? https://clbin.com/1YjAs
2020-02-02T21:00:10Z Riastradh: I wonder where that makefile comes from.  It's not in git...
2020-02-02T21:00:37Z Riastradh: It's copied from dist/Makefile, I guess.
2020-02-02T21:00:58Z Riastradh: Anyway, igonre that makefile; it's a red herring and probably an artefact of days of yore.
2020-02-02T21:01:08Z Riastradh: Just run make in src and doc separately.
2020-02-02T21:01:21Z erkin: Okie dokie
2020-02-02T21:01:55Z Riastradh: (Looks like it's used by the script Chris runs to generate the distribution.)
2020-02-02T21:05:11Z erkin: Okay, this solves the documentation problem.
2020-02-02T21:05:30Z erkin: Oh it solves the X11 issue too, somehow.
2020-02-02T21:05:40Z erkin: x11 and x11-screen now appear in /usr/lib/mit-scheme-x86-64/
2020-02-02T21:06:11Z erkin: (enumerate-graphics-types) still returns ()
2020-02-02T21:06:59Z erkin: This is weird: It works if I load the scmutils band mechanics.com instead of runtime.com.
2020-02-02T21:07:33Z erkin: (enumerate-graphics-types) returns (x) and the window pops up when I run (make-graphics-device 'x).
2020-02-02T21:08:42Z erkin: Riastradh: Is there something else I need to do by default to load the X11 plugin?
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2020-02-02T22:26:05Z zig: mdhughes: hello, up?
2020-02-02T22:34:34Z erkin: The task number is a palindrome. How suiting for the International Palindrome Day. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/65356
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2020-02-03T04:35:59Z erkin: Finally https://erkin.party/scheme/
2020-02-03T04:36:39Z erkin: Now I have something I can link people to when they ask for books and stuff.
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2020-02-03T04:37:14Z bandali: nice
2020-02-03T04:39:02Z erkin: Feedback welcome, as usual.
2020-02-03T04:39:22Z zaifir: erkin: Very nice reference page.  Thanks for keeping the page simple, too.
2020-02-03T04:39:34Z erkin: It's handwritten HTML and CSS. :-)
2020-02-03T04:40:09Z erkin: I should probably mark the release years of books too.
2020-02-03T04:40:20Z erkin: And attach a little blurb to each describing what they're useful for.
2020-02-03T04:44:30Z zaifir: erkin: A brief blurb on what Scheme is, at the top of the page, would be helpful, for those who don't know.
2020-02-03T04:52:21Z mdhughes: zig, yes?
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2020-02-03T05:27:37Z pjb: erkin: and what's more, it was a palindrome both in the US and in Europe… 2020/02/02 or 2020/02/02 are the same!
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2020-02-03T05:28:04Z erkin: :-)
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2020-02-03T05:45:34Z erkin: zaifir: How about now?
2020-02-03T05:46:41Z zaifir: erkin: Excellent.
2020-02-03T05:50:17Z erkin: In that case I can go to sleep now.
2020-02-03T05:54:38Z zaifir: erkin: 'night, and nice work.
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2020-02-03T07:35:12Z zig: erkin: neat! neat page too
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2020-02-03T07:39:15Z wasamasa: erkin: Programming in Scheme is like the SICP prequel
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2020-02-03T09:09:41Z pjb: erkin: also, it has an unfortunate name!  PIS vs SICP…
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2020-02-03T17:00:24Z erkin: I'm still working through the list: https://erkin.party/scheme/
2020-02-03T17:00:32Z erkin: Does anyone have any suggestions or corrections?
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2020-02-03T18:15:07Z drakonis: erkin: woudl you mind including a breakdown of scheme dialects?
2020-02-03T18:15:33Z erkin: I was also working on that but didn't have time to finish it.
2020-02-03T18:16:16Z erkin: https://clbin.com/HO6VH
2020-02-03T18:16:52Z drakonis: isn't guile's package manager called guild?
2020-02-03T18:17:02Z erkin: Isn't Guildhall dead?
2020-02-03T18:17:03Z drakonis: guildhall
2020-02-03T18:17:16Z drakonis: actually, i think it was superceded by guix
2020-02-03T18:18:07Z drakonis: guildhall targets guile 2.0, so it might be fairly out of date
2020-02-03T18:18:14Z erkin: I'll add Guix.
2020-02-03T18:18:31Z drakonis: i'm not sure what's the official stance on that
2020-02-03T18:18:35Z drakonis: but it has every guile library
2020-02-03T18:18:59Z erkin: I'll just keep it in until someone tells me to take it out. :-P
2020-02-03T18:19:22Z drakonis: i asked on #guile
2020-02-03T18:19:50Z erkin: Bingo
2020-02-03T18:20:01Z drakonis: cool, so guix it is then
2020-02-03T18:21:25Z drakonis: so, up next in guile's future, absorb racket features
2020-02-03T18:21:59Z drakonis: but that one's yet to come
2020-02-03T18:22:16Z erkin: I haven't touched it since autumn last year.
2020-02-03T18:24:13Z zaifir: Hopefully, up next for Guile is providing R7RS-large libraries.
2020-02-03T18:24:17Z drakonis: also that
2020-02-03T18:24:28Z drakonis: that's a near future compared to stealing racket's features
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2020-02-03T18:24:42Z drakonis: i'm surprised that it has erlang style concurrency
2020-02-03T18:24:59Z drakonis: i have a bit of a hard time getting into erlang due to the syntax being very alien
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2020-02-03T18:28:54Z drakonis: when's r7rs out?
2020-02-03T18:29:02Z drakonis: r7rs-large that is.
2020-02-03T18:30:14Z zaifir: Now.
2020-02-03T18:30:26Z zaifir: At least editions through Tangerine.
2020-02-03T18:31:08Z zaifir: Chibi and Gambit already have all of the Red edition libraries, and I think some of the tangerines as well.
2020-02-03T18:33:26Z erkin: drakonis: You might like Elixir.
2020-02-03T18:33:35Z erkin: It's got a cleaner syntax and hygienic macros.
2020-02-03T18:33:40Z erkin: (Erlang's macros are unhygienic.)
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2020-02-03T18:42:06Z drakonis: i've heard of it and gave it a fairly superficial shot
2020-02-03T18:42:39Z drakonis: its docs arent very good and depend quite a lot on published books
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2020-02-03T18:43:23Z drakonis: rather, very basic docs
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2020-02-03T19:01:22Z zig: Neither do I can read erland, I guess I am spoiled by scheme syntax :/
2020-02-03T19:01:36Z erkin: There's LFE but it's pretty sucky.
2020-02-03T19:01:49Z erkin: It doesn't target BEAM bytecode, it just transpiles to Erlang.
2020-02-03T19:01:57Z erkin: And it's very CL-like, Lisp-2 and all.
2020-02-03T19:02:56Z zig: I read the erlang book before trying to learn scheme. It did not catch on.
2020-02-03T19:03:17Z zig: I also read the thesis by the author of erlang which is very inspiring.
2020-02-03T19:03:43Z zig: and does not contain lot of erlang, if any.
2020-02-03T19:05:42Z erkin: There's also (the terribly named) CSCM (AKA "The Concurrent Schemer", which should've been the name of a book) but it's been abandoned for the last six years.
2020-02-03T19:09:20Z zig: oh interesting.
2020-02-03T19:09:50Z zig: I hesitate to buy yet another book that I will not read. I was planning to go through poc.cml on github
2020-02-03T19:10:04Z zig: instead of buy the CML book.
2020-02-03T19:10:12Z zig: Maybe CSCM will be helpful too.
2020-02-03T19:10:32Z nisstyre: Racket has an actors implementation fwiw
2020-02-03T19:10:43Z nisstyre: it probably won't handle backpressure very well though
2020-02-03T19:10:56Z nisstyre: and doesn't handle distributed programming very well
2020-02-03T19:11:27Z nisstyre: there's also https://gitlab.com/spritely/goblins
2020-02-03T19:11:31Z zig: I was under the impression that back pressure was FUD?
2020-02-03T19:11:53Z nisstyre: zig: not sure what you're talking about, backpressure is an inherent thing in distributed systems that use message passing
2020-02-03T19:12:11Z nisstyre: at some point you will have more messages than you can handle at the same rate as they are coming in
2020-02-03T19:12:37Z zig: how is that different from the synchronous case?
2020-02-03T19:13:09Z nisstyre: what do you mean "the synchronous case"
2020-02-03T19:14:05Z nisstyre: in a synchronous program you would process all of your messages after they've been "sent" I guess
2020-02-03T19:14:53Z nisstyre: https://ferd.ca/queues-don-t-fix-overload.html
2020-02-03T19:16:04Z nisstyre: so to use the sink example, your sink gets filled, and then it gets drained
2020-02-03T19:16:11Z nisstyre: and more water would not come in until it has been completely drained
2020-02-03T19:16:23Z nisstyre: in an asynchronous program, water is coming in all the time and getting drained at the same time
2020-02-03T19:16:48Z nisstyre: and so if the drain can't drain water faster than it comes in, then it overflows
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2020-02-03T19:49:48Z zig: both sync and async case have the same problem.
2020-02-03T19:53:40Z zig: nisstyre: thanks for the link
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2020-02-03T20:10:22Z jcowan: erkin: I don't see what difference it makes that LFE targets Erlang.  After all, Chicken targets C.  As long as you don't have to look at the generated Erlang, it's just part of the compilation pipeline.
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2020-02-03T20:11:00Z erkin: It just feels like a hack to me. C doesn't run on a virtual machine.
2020-02-03T20:11:26Z erkin: Not a proper language but an AST-based relex (like Hy to Python).
2020-02-03T20:11:32Z erkin: Maybe it's just my prejudice.
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2020-02-03T20:14:32Z jcowan: The only reason that most JVM languages target JVM bytecode and not Java is that there are a few things (like arbitrary gotos and non-Java identifiers) that you have to do directly at the bytecode level.
2020-02-03T20:15:03Z jcowan: For that matter, gcc doesn't generate object code either, it generates assembler, which used to be pretty much how all compilers worked.
2020-02-03T20:17:21Z erkin: I've always wondered why Clojure et al don't use things like Da Vinci Machine.
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2020-02-03T20:18:00Z uplime: what's the da vinci machine?
2020-02-03T20:18:09Z erkin: Dynamic language support for JVM.
2020-02-03T20:18:23Z uplime: ah
2020-02-03T20:18:25Z uplime: neat
2020-02-03T20:18:31Z erkin: I don't know its new name since it was absorbed by JVM 7.
2020-02-03T20:19:40Z Riastradh: Did it exist when Clojure was created?
2020-02-03T20:19:49Z erkin: Good question.
2020-02-03T20:19:49Z Riastradh: (and was it deployed enough to matter)
2020-02-03T20:20:20Z erkin: Oh haha
2020-02-03T20:20:31Z erkin: Sun started Da Vinci Machine development in 2007.
2020-02-03T20:20:40Z erkin: Clojure also came into being in 2007.
2020-02-03T20:21:19Z erkin: Seems like Oracle renamed it "Multi Language Virtual Machine" to drain any potential fun out of it.
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2020-02-03T20:39:43Z jcowan: The last good naming idea Oracle had was the name "Oracle".
2020-02-03T20:40:42Z jcowan: First it was only the DBMS and the company was Relational Software Inc.
2020-02-03T20:43:51Z jcowan: but that was easily confused with Relational Technology Inc (Ingres) and Relational Database Systems Inc (Informix)
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2020-02-03T21:52:49Z zig: did you read their loom project renamed their continuation rework, into fibers, they virtual thread then simply thread. They skipped the "cooperative thread" thing.
2020-02-03T21:56:29Z zig: [citation neeeded]? just watch the two last talks on the subject on youtube.
2020-02-03T21:56:45Z zig: also you will read: "dynamic = slow" :'D
2020-02-03T21:57:34Z zig: they plan to hide the continuation facility that allows to implement fibers / virtual threads / user threads or whatever they call them. And MAYBE implement TCO
2020-02-03T21:58:40Z zig: they still have an interesting take on manage a herd of fibers (greenthreads) called scopes, that is inspired from python trio.
2020-02-03T21:59:53Z zig: they do not implement channels tho. Scope should workaround it.
2020-02-03T22:00:15Z zig: also it is single OS thread.
2020-02-03T22:00:26Z zig: (unlike guile fibers)
2020-02-03T22:01:44Z gwatt: I would assume thread multiplexing would be a logical next step. It's not like the JVM is single threaded and they're taking baby steps here.
2020-02-03T22:01:50Z zig: scope allow for given set of scope, are somekind of supervisor from elrang.
2020-02-03T22:02:24Z zig: scope allow to manage the lifetime of greenthreads.
2020-02-03T22:04:23Z zig: it is stricly equivalent to spawn a bunch of fibers and select on some channel, but requires less work.
2020-02-03T22:06:04Z zig: maybe.
2020-02-03T22:07:00Z zig: cooperative multithreading is central concept to greenthread avoiding all together is the kind of mistake I saw with people trying to use guile-fibers.
2020-02-03T22:07:13Z zig: concurrency != parallelism
2020-02-03T22:07:55Z zig: anway... I am not the one that will change the world.
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2020-02-03T22:13:00Z aeth: jcowan: Is it a surprise that a company that exists solely based on its sales team is a company that has a good name?
2020-02-03T22:13:46Z jcowan: Lots of companies are like that and their names are stupid.  "Zappos"?  I mean, c'mon.
2020-02-03T22:14:12Z aeth: That's from a newer era, when you wanted to have a short .com domain no matter how stupid the actual string was.
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2020-02-03T22:15:50Z jcowan: True, although Digital Equipment Corporation got dec.com easily enough.
2020-02-03T22:16:40Z jcowan: The sales point there was that they were careful never to use the word "computer", for fear of being seen to compete with IBM.  Their computers were "Programmed Data Processors".
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2020-02-03T22:18:08Z aeth: jcowan: that sort of thinking seems to be fairly common (just different words that are avoided)
2020-02-03T22:18:58Z jcowan: Back when Oracle was a young and hungry startup, I had this conversation with a salesman:
2020-02-03T22:19:08Z jcowan: Oracle:  "Our company doubles in size every year?"
2020-02-03T22:19:23Z jcowan: Me: "So that means that half of you have less than a year's experience with the product, then?"
2020-02-03T22:19:29Z jcowan: s/?/!/1
2020-02-03T22:20:01Z zig: :/
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2020-02-03T22:39:41Z aeth: jcowan: I wouldn't have asked that question because it would only take a few decades for everyone on the planet to be working for Oracle (just (log population 2) afaik?) and they probably wouldn't like employees who ask questions like that!
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2020-02-03T22:42:33Z erkin: zig: I shared the implementation guide draft as well as the bibliography page on the schemedoc mailing list.
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2020-02-03T22:43:48Z erkin: Thanks for reminding me!
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2020-02-03T22:45:58Z jcowan: aeth: I wasn't an employee candidate, I was working for a company Oracle was trying to sell to, and their rapid expansion was supposed to be a selling point for their product, as in "50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong".
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2020-02-03T22:47:23Z aeth: jcowan: my point is, (log 1e9 2) or (log 7e9 2) or whatever (doesn't make much of a difference is about 30, so everyone is an employee in 30 years!
2020-02-03T22:47:39Z aeth: s/a difference/a difference)/
2020-02-03T22:47:56Z aeth: jcowan: The magic of exponential growth!
2020-02-03T22:48:33Z jcowan: I don't think the idea was that the rate was sustainable.  He was trying to sell me on "Lots of people want to work here -> our product is good."
2020-02-03T22:49:07Z Riastradh: `Lots of people work here -> we have low standards and an insatiable hunger for growth at all costs.'
2020-02-03T22:49:10Z jcowan: where I was saying "you have lots of new employees -> much of you know little of the product"
2020-02-03T22:50:25Z jcowan: Adding employees /= growth, however, any more than increasing number of hits = growth.  People often tend to confuse costs with revenue, liabilities with assets.
2020-02-03T22:50:27Z aeth: Riastradh: It's more impressive when a company does well with few employees. Valve only has about 300-350 and they "make games" while also running the #1 online store/platform for PC games.
2020-02-03T22:50:50Z aeth: Riastradh: And then some random game company comes along with like 3000 employees and makes less impressive games and you know they're not going to be there in 20 years.
2020-02-03T22:51:28Z aeth: jcowan: Exactly. The fewer employees you need to get something done, the more impressive it is.
2020-02-03T22:51:33Z aeth: Ideally, 0. Have AI do it.
2020-02-03T22:51:47Z aeth: (That seems to be the Google approach to running YouTube, anyway.)
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2020-02-03T23:14:04Z Riastradh: jcowan: and valuation with value
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2020-02-04T06:37:53Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. Excuse me, but what is the function to construct a list out of function's result? For example, I want a list of 10 random variables returned by (random) function
2020-02-04T06:38:34Z ArthurStrong: Like inverse of (for-each)
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2020-02-04T06:41:17Z pjb: (define (repeat n thunk) (if (= 0 n) '() (cons (thunk) (repeat (- n 1) thunk))))  (repeat 10 (lambda () (random 10)))
2020-02-04T06:42:05Z pjb: (repeat 10 (let ((i 0)) (lambda () (set! i (+ i 1)) i))) -> (10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1)
2020-02-04T06:42:27Z ArthurStrong: OK, but it there a standard function?
2020-02-04T06:43:34Z pjb: ArthurStrong: (foldl fun initial (iota n)) but foldl (or foldr) and iota are in libraries, not in the standard.
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2020-02-04T06:45:10Z ArthurStrong: I just can't believe no one needs this function and it's absent in standards...
2020-02-04T06:45:23Z ArthurStrong: But thanks anyway!
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2020-02-04T08:45:51Z erkin: Scheme standards are fairly minimal.
2020-02-04T08:53:00Z pjb: any language only define a language, not a library containing all the programs of the world for people to select…
2020-02-04T08:53:17Z pjb: a language is made so that YOU can WRITE the program you need, not to provide you the program you need!
2020-02-04T08:53:34Z pjb: Well, perhaps apart the stackoverflow programming language.
2020-02-04T09:06:18Z zig: very well.
2020-02-04T09:07:57Z erkin: Racket's build-list should've been included in SRFI-1.
2020-02-04T09:08:32Z erkin: It's like make-list, except it passes the index to a proc instead of a constant value.
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2020-02-04T09:12:51Z mdhughes: There's repeat macros in almost any Scheme's local library, like Chicken has them in the miscmacros egg.
2020-02-04T09:13:11Z mdhughes: So your prelude will change between implementations, but the code stays identical.
2020-02-04T09:16:22Z mdhughes: For the random list, maybe easiest is (map (lambda (x) (rnd 10)) (iota 10))
2020-02-04T09:17:19Z mdhughes: (is there a generator version of iota? I don't like to make a giant list to throw away…)
2020-02-04T09:18:53Z erkin: You can do something like (generator (n) (for ((n _)) (yield (random)))) in Racket.
2020-02-04T09:19:19Z erkin: Not sure about SRFI-158
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2020-02-04T10:08:35Z ArthurStrong: What is the simplest way to update structure member? Failed with set!...
2020-02-04T10:09:15Z zig: structure member?
2020-02-04T10:09:26Z ArthurStrong: zig: yes, declared using define-struct
2020-02-04T10:09:26Z zig: maybe what you are looking for is hash-table
2020-02-04T10:09:59Z zig: what scheme implementation?
2020-02-04T10:10:09Z ArthurStrong: zig: Racket.
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2020-02-04T10:10:24Z mdhughes: You should be able to use (set! (Foo-x foo) 10)
2020-02-04T10:10:37Z mdhughes: If it's anything like define-record
2020-02-04T10:10:52Z zig: there is #racket
2020-02-04T10:12:06Z ArthurStrong: (define-struct coord (x y))
2020-02-04T10:12:06Z ArthurStrong: (define c (make-coord 2 3))
2020-02-04T10:12:06Z ArthurStrong: (coord-x c)
2020-02-04T10:12:07Z ArthurStrong: (set! (coord-x c) 10)
2020-02-04T10:12:14Z ArthurStrong: This failed
2020-02-04T10:12:31Z ArthurStrong: "set!: not an identifier in: (coord-x c)"
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2020-02-04T10:20:20Z mdhughes: Does (coord-x-set! c 10) work?
2020-02-04T10:21:04Z ArthurStrong: No: "coord-x-set!: unbound identifier in: coord-x-set!"
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2020-02-04T10:21:41Z mdhughes: Well, there you go, it's read-only.
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2020-02-04T10:22:15Z ArthurStrong: heh
2020-02-04T10:22:24Z ArthurStrong: What do you use to declare modifiable structures?
2020-02-04T10:22:38Z ArthurStrong: Which are small...
2020-02-04T10:22:43Z ArthurStrong: (hash-table would be overkill)
2020-02-04T10:23:04Z mdhughes: I'd use records, but I don't know how Racket deals with those.
2020-02-04T10:25:23Z mdhughes: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/define-struct.html
2020-02-04T10:25:31Z mdhughes: You need the #:mutable option on each field.
2020-02-04T10:25:53Z mdhughes: Or no, the whole struct.
2020-02-04T10:28:03Z ArthurStrong: Oh, this is what I wanted
2020-02-04T10:28:04Z ArthurStrong: thanks a lot
2020-02-04T10:29:55Z mdhughes: And it bizarrely writes the setters set-TYPE-FIELD! instead of every other Scheme's TYPE-FIELD-set!
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2020-02-04T10:43:04Z erkin: Racket consistently puts set- in the beginning in every mutator procedure.
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2020-02-04T10:46:07Z mdhughes: I'm super triggered.
2020-02-04T10:46:18Z mdhughes: Goddamned Java devs.
2020-02-04T10:46:22Z erkin: hah
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2020-02-04T15:50:08Z Riastradh: ...pretty sure set-TYPE-FIELD! predated Java's existence, and not sure how you count `every other Scheme'...
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2020-02-04T15:59:13Z ecraven: has anyone seen Scheme (or CL) code for interacting with LDAP on a pure wire protocol basis? so not an ffi binding to openldap
2020-02-04T16:14:00Z nisstyre: ecraven: nope, that would be a massive undertaking I bet
2020-02-04T16:14:24Z nisstyre: unless you only implement a subset of the protocol I guess
2020-02-04T16:14:37Z Riastradh: `lightweight'
2020-02-04T16:14:53Z ecraven: I'm not so sure.. the protocol itself doesn't seem that complex..
2020-02-04T16:15:02Z ecraven: see https://ldap.com/ldapv3-wire-protocol-reference-asn1-ber/ ;)
2020-02-04T16:15:10Z nisstyre: Riastradh: > lightweight, > ASN.1
2020-02-04T16:15:17Z nisstyre: those two things seem contradictory somehow
2020-02-04T16:15:43Z nisstyre: ecraven: yeah but what do the actual implementations do
2020-02-04T16:16:16Z nisstyre: anyway, maybe you could do it easily with a binary parsing/serialization library
2020-02-04T16:16:32Z nisstyre: there might even be something that takes in ASN.1 grammars and generates code
2020-02-04T16:17:17Z ecraven: also, remember the B in BER is for "Basic" ;)
2020-02-04T16:19:02Z ecraven: is there a common abstraction for going through a bytevector by index and for reading from a bytevector input port?
2020-02-04T16:19:19Z ecraven: some way of not having to write the same parser twice for these two scenarios?
2020-02-04T16:19:34Z Riastradh: ecraven: Write your parser as a push-oriented state machine.
2020-02-04T16:19:58Z Riastradh: (define (parse-step state bv start end) ...)
2020-02-04T16:21:06Z ecraven: a good idea in general, but I'm not sure I understand how that would help with bytevector input ports?
2020-02-04T16:21:37Z Riastradh: (let ((state (initial-state)) (buf (make-bytevector BUFSIZ))) (let loop () (let ((n (read-bytevector bv 0 BUFSIZ port))) (if n (begin (parse-step state bv 0 n) (loop)))) state)
2020-02-04T16:22:09Z ecraven: great, thank you
2020-02-04T16:22:46Z Riastradh: Works just as well asynchronously:  (lambda (next) (let ((state (initial-state)) (buf (make-bytevector BUFSIZ))) (let loop () (read-bytevector-async bv 0 BUFSIZ (lambda (n) (if n (begin (parse-step state bv 0 n) (loop)) (next state]
2020-02-04T16:23:27Z ecraven: yea, just need to think a bit about how to implement that sort of parser at least halfway efficiently.. ;)
2020-02-04T16:23:33Z Riastradh: (Put it into a select/poll loop; spell that with CML-style multiplexed I/O if you like; &c.)
2020-02-04T16:24:47Z Riastradh: ecraven: What type of language is it?  If it's regular, or almost regular, write an NFA.
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2020-02-04T16:26:53Z Riastradh: (`almost regular' here means it's structured mostly like a regular language but you need a simple stack of state, like a nesting depth, which can't be encoded into the NFA itself but can be expressed in the NFA's transition actions)
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2020-02-04T16:43:05Z mdhughes: open-input-bytevector?
2020-02-04T16:43:20Z mdhughes: (I don't think that exists, but it could)
2020-02-04T16:44:37Z mdhughes: (open-bytevector-input-port) in R6RS, anyway
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2020-02-04T16:51:36Z mdhughes: Oh, it is (open-input-bytevector) in R7RS after all.
2020-02-04T16:51:55Z mdhughes: Man I love standards, there's so many to choose from!
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2020-02-04T17:50:47Z faLUCE: hello. myList contains elements like:   (make-music 'SustainEvent 'span-direction -1)   or   (make-music 'SustainEvent 'span-direction 1)   ---->  how can I check if an element contains 'SustainEvent   ?
2020-02-04T17:51:18Z faLUCE: sorry:
2020-02-04T17:51:45Z faLUCE: how can I check if myList contains an element like the ones above, with 'SustainEvent ?
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2020-02-04T17:52:31Z wasamasa: there's member, memv, memq
2020-02-04T17:53:39Z faLUCE: wasamasa:   (member (myList 'SustainEvent)) ?
2020-02-04T17:54:01Z wasamasa: I recommend you to read whatever scheme standard you target
2020-02-04T17:54:10Z wasamasa: it explains in detail how it's used and how it works
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2020-02-04T17:56:53Z faLUCE: wasamasa: for srfi 1  https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Searching-Lists.html
2020-02-04T17:57:30Z faLUCE: so (member 'SustainEvent myList)  ?
2020-02-04T17:57:54Z wasamasa: it's part of the standards, srfi-1 builds on what's there
2020-02-04T17:58:36Z wasamasa: you can use memv in this case since eqv? is safe to use on symbols
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2020-02-04T18:00:53Z faLUCE: I tried  (member 'SustainEvent  '(list (make-music 'SustainEvent 'span-direction -1)))    but it returns false
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2020-02-04T18:01:51Z faLUCE: wasamasa: (memv 'SustainEvent  '(list (make-music 'SustainEvent 'span-direction -1))) returns false too
2020-02-04T18:02:03Z wasamasa: um
2020-02-04T18:02:08Z wasamasa: why do you quote the list call
2020-02-04T18:02:13Z wasamasa: why
2020-02-04T18:02:44Z faLUCE: wasamasa:
2020-02-04T18:02:46Z faLUCE:    (memv 'SustainEvent (list (make-music 'SustainEvent 'span-direction -1)))
2020-02-04T18:02:47Z faLUCE: Error: execute: unbound symbol: "make-music" []
2020-02-04T18:02:54Z wasamasa: how is the list you're searching even supposed to look like?
2020-02-04T18:03:08Z wasamasa: we don't know what (make-music ...) does
2020-02-04T18:03:15Z faLUCE: wasamasa: right
2020-02-04T18:03:36Z wasamasa: we don't know whether it's supposed to be interpreted as a function call or as data
2020-02-04T18:03:44Z faLUCE: it's a function
2020-02-04T18:03:54Z wasamasa: well, your error suggests otherwise
2020-02-04T18:04:13Z faLUCE: wasamasa: no, I used an online scheme interpreter
2020-02-04T18:04:31Z faLUCE: I did not use my env
2020-02-04T18:04:32Z wasamasa: as for the other issue, understand how exactly member/memv/memq work
2020-02-04T18:04:50Z wasamasa: they go over a list and check whether any of the list's items are equal?/eqv?/eq? to the one you're looking for
2020-02-04T18:05:10Z wasamasa: if your list consists the symbol list and the list (make-music ...), it's not going to find anything
2020-02-04T18:05:20Z faLUCE: Yeah, I see
2020-02-04T18:05:22Z wasamasa: because neither of those are what you're looking for
2020-02-04T18:05:26Z zaifir: faLUCE: It would help us to know what make-music returns.
2020-02-04T18:05:43Z wasamasa: provide a minimal, self-contained example
2020-02-04T18:05:58Z wasamasa: something that would run as is inside that online interpreter
2020-02-04T18:08:54Z faLUCE: zaifir: the problem is that I don't know what it returns. I have to iterate the list
2020-02-04T18:11:12Z faLUCE: this is the content of myList:
2020-02-04T18:11:14Z zaifir: faLUCE: I'd like to understand better what you mean by "I have to iterate the list".
2020-02-04T18:11:15Z faLUCE: (#<Prob: Music C++: Music((origin . #<location /home/paolo/programmi/LilyJSSVG-master/tests/scriptsAndLineSpanners.ly:14:152>) (span-direction . 1))((display-methods #<procedure 5581b5daf960 at ice-9/eval.scm:416:20 (a)>) (name . BeamEvent) (types post-event event beam-event span-event)) >
2020-02-04T18:11:17Z faLUCE:  #<Prob: Music C++: Music((origin . #<location /home/paolo/programmi/LilyJSSVG-master/tests/scriptsAndLineSpanners.ly:14:153>) (span-direction . 1))((display-methods #<procedure 5581b5dd3630 at ice-9/eval.scm:416:20 (a)>) (name . SustainEvent) (types post-event event pedal-event sustain-event)) >
2020-02-04T18:11:48Z faLUCE: then, I have to check if it contains "sustain-event"
2020-02-04T18:11:48Z wasamasa: so you're looking up documentation for an unrelated scheme dialect, great
2020-02-04T18:12:12Z wasamasa: I suggest you learn as much as you can about guile and lilypond-specific extensions to it
2020-02-04T18:12:20Z faLUCE: yes
2020-02-04T18:12:32Z wasamasa: like, what exactly that "Prob" type is
2020-02-04T18:12:49Z wasamasa: I doubt it's something present in guile
2020-02-04T18:12:50Z zaifir: faLUCE: So you're trying to determine whether this Prob:... structure contains SustainEvent.
2020-02-04T18:13:02Z zaifir: Oh, it seems to contain an alist.
2020-02-04T18:13:06Z faLUCE: wasamasa: yeah, I have to use the lilypond-specific dialect before checking that value
2020-02-04T18:13:18Z wasamasa: it might behave like a list or not
2020-02-04T18:13:26Z wasamasa: who knows
2020-02-04T18:13:29Z faLUCE: solved, thanks
2020-02-04T18:13:54Z zaifir: faLUCE: Solved how?
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2020-02-04T18:19:33Z zaifir: Urrgh.
2020-02-04T18:20:36Z faLUCE: zaifir: I'm applying lilypond's specific functions
2020-02-04T18:21:40Z zaifir: faLUCE: I figured.
2020-02-04T18:25:37Z faLUCE: zaifir: I understood that I had to apply lilypond's stuff after your suggestion :-)
2020-02-04T18:30:43Z zaifir: faLUCE: ACK.  Yeah, it can be confusing when some mystery structure is printed in a way that makes it look like a list.
2020-02-04T18:32:47Z faLUCE: zaifir: exactly
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2020-02-04T20:04:26Z jcowan: erkin: What you describe is SRFI-1 list-tabulate, I think.
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2020-02-04T20:08:26Z jcowan: ASN.1 BER is dead easy in a dynamically typed language, because you can just ignore everything to do with schemas.
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2020-02-05T00:51:48Z mdhughes: I think I found the animal mascot for Scheme: https://dostatic.cybre.space/media_attachments/files/007/178/031/original/834bd5dd81cbeceb.png
2020-02-05T00:52:07Z mdhughes: (it was in Simply Scheme, which I was pillaging for functions)
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2020-02-05T06:15:05Z ecraven: Riastradh: BER is mostly just one byte of type, then multiple bytes of length, then length bytes of content
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2020-02-05T06:30:28Z Riastradh: ecraven: ?
2020-02-05T06:30:58Z ecraven: a few hours ago: <Riastradh> ecraven: What type of language is it?  If it's regular, or almost regular, write an NFA.
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2020-02-05T06:35:08Z ecraven: did I completely misunderstand that question?
2020-02-05T06:38:24Z Riastradh: No, I just forgot the context.
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2020-02-05T06:40:16Z Riastradh: Should be straightforward enough to write a push-oriented state machine that parses type-tagged length-delimited sequences into a buffer to pass on to another machine, which presumably has to deal with higher-level structures.
2020-02-05T06:43:31Z ecraven: I agree ;)
2020-02-05T06:44:53Z ecraven: jcowan: I'm not sure whether that is true for LDAP in general, you might want to know about the schema when interacting with an LDAP server
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2020-02-06T00:52:30Z bandali: rudybot, do you sing?
2020-02-06T00:52:31Z rudybot: bandali: cover you can do only of a song with voice, where you re-sing it
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2020-02-07T10:23:27Z zig: I pushed the json stream writer at https://github.com/amirouche/srfi-180/commit/95be635ec5abdac2d4f4a0491d28320871aaceea
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2020-02-07T13:15:23Z ecraven: really? 2.5k$? https://www.ebay.com/itm/254505416092
2020-02-07T13:15:31Z ecraven: Very Rare Vintage Symbolics Space Cadet LISP Machine Mechanical Keyboard 364000
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2020-02-07T15:08:13Z pjb: ecraven: well, *pristine* condition. If it was never used, it might be worth them.
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2020-02-07T15:54:35Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. How to make a list consisting of n elements? I want (func 3 'asd) -> '('asd 'asd 'asd)
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2020-02-07T15:57:18Z X-Scale: (vector->list (make-vector 3 'asd))
2020-02-07T15:58:05Z ArthurStrong: X-Scale: thanks!
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2020-02-07T16:07:07Z pjb: ArthurStrong: (define (func n element) (if (= 0 n) '() (cons (list 'quote element) (func (- n 1) element))))  (func 3 'asd) --> ((quote asd) (quote asd) (quote asd))
2020-02-07T16:07:48Z pjb: Oops, sorry: (define (func* n element) (if (= 0 n) '() (cons (list 'quote element) (func (- n 1) element)))) (define (func n element) (list 'quote (func* n element)))   (func 3 'asd) --> (quote ((quote asd) quote ((quote asd) quote ((quote asd) quote ()))))
2020-02-07T16:08:31Z mdhughes: Scheme's a wonderful language for playing anti-golf.
2020-02-07T16:09:11Z pjb: Well, he asked for quotes, so there they are.
2020-02-07T16:15:56Z ArthurStrong: pjb: thanks for the idea
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2020-02-07T16:40:05Z pjb: that said, in mit scheme I have a (make-list 3 'foo) -> (foo foo foo) ; perhaps it's in some standard or srfi?
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2020-02-07T16:48:50Z mdhughes: https://api.call-cc.org/5/doc/srfi-1/make-list
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2020-02-07T22:55:47Z john00: hello all
2020-02-07T22:57:25Z john00: I'm trying to make a list comprehension macro with define-syntax and syntax-rules. does anyone know if there's a way to make this work?
2020-02-07T22:57:28Z john00: (define-syntax let-zip
2020-02-07T22:57:31Z john00:   (syntax-rules ()
2020-02-07T22:57:33Z john00:     ((let-zip (var var* ...) (val val* ...)
2020-02-07T22:57:36Z john00:               body ...)
2020-02-07T22:57:38Z john00:      (let ((var val)
2020-02-07T22:57:41Z john00:            (var* val*) ...)
2020-02-07T22:57:43Z john00:        body ...))))
2020-02-07T22:57:46Z john00: (define-syntax list-comprehension
2020-02-07T22:57:48Z john00:   (syntax-rules (for in if)
2020-02-07T22:57:51Z john00:     ((_ expression for symbols in lst)
2020-02-07T22:57:53Z john00:      (map (lambda (values)
2020-02-07T22:57:56Z john00:             (let-zip symbols values
2020-02-07T22:57:58Z john00:                      expression))
2020-02-07T22:58:01Z john00:           lst))))
2020-02-07T22:58:03Z john00: (define L '((0 0) (1 11) (2 22) (3 33) (4 44) (5 55)))
2020-02-07T22:58:06Z john00: (list-comprehension (* x y) for (x y) in L)
2020-02-07T23:05:35Z pjb: john00: the problem is that let-zip is a syntax that takes two lists, and you give it two symbols.
2020-02-07T23:07:16Z john00: pjb: hi!
2020-02-07T23:07:21Z pjb: Instead, you want to expand to (map (lambda (x y) (* x y)) L)
2020-02-07T23:08:31Z john00: so the goal is to pass the macro an arbitrary expression - say, (* x y) or (+ x y)
2020-02-07T23:09:11Z john00: an arbitrary list of items - say, (0 1 2 3 4 5) or ((0 1) (1 2) (2 3) (3 4) (4 5)) or ((0 1 2) (1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5))
2020-02-07T23:09:38Z john00: and a thing that's basically a destructuring tuple - for example, x or (x y) or (x y z)
2020-02-07T23:09:53Z pjb: Well, not exactly  (map (lambda (x y) (* x y)) L).
2020-02-07T23:11:10Z john00: right, so in the list-comprehension macro lst is literally replaced by the value it receives - in this case '((0 0) (1 11) ...)
2020-02-07T23:11:24Z john00: and then values becomes (0 0) and then (1 11) and so on
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2020-02-07T23:12:02Z pjb: john00: https://termbin.com/w7d9
2020-02-07T23:12:10Z john00: and then symbols and expression are both replaced
2020-02-07T23:12:44Z pjb: works also with https://termbin.com/mj5b1
2020-02-07T23:13:12Z pjb: (it may be better, if you want to be able to handle rest parameters.
2020-02-07T23:13:55Z pjb: such as: (list-comprehension (apply * args) for args in '((1 2) (1 2 3) (1 2 3 4))) -->  (2 6 24)
2020-02-07T23:14:11Z john00: hmmm
2020-02-07T23:14:31Z john00: yes that's very nice
2020-02-07T23:17:45Z john00: please hang on a minute more
2020-02-07T23:21:42Z john00: ok so I think I see where I went wrong. I was trying to use the let expression (expansion, statement?) when really let is itself a macro for lambda
2020-02-07T23:21:53Z pjb: Yep.
2020-02-07T23:22:03Z john00: and something about let requires a pair or series of pairs in a very specific fashion
2020-02-07T23:22:40Z pjb: The syntax.
2020-02-07T23:22:51Z john00: sorry?
2020-02-07T23:23:10Z pjb: That's the inconvenient with syntax, it has to be specific at compilation time (or expansion time).
2020-02-07T23:23:44Z john00: oh right, because it's a macro
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2020-02-07T23:23:58Z pjb: The syntax cannot know that to get the values, it has to walk the list.
2020-02-07T23:24:07Z pjb: But apply knows it.
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2020-02-07T23:25:14Z john00: so you can eval it and do some quasiquotation but that breaks things in a way I don't totally understand yet. I mean I know it's manipulating syntax but it isn't instinctual for me at this point
2020-02-07T23:25:20Z john00: yeah
2020-02-07T23:26:48Z john00: so what's the difference between using lambda-list and (p ...)? you said something about rest arguments
2020-02-07T23:27:37Z pjb: ((lambda args (list 'my 'args 'are args)) 1 2 3)  -> (my args are (1 2 3))
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2020-02-07T23:28:01Z no-defun-allowed: Hello, are there any Scheme implementations that have the kind of interactivity that's seen in Common Lisp? Somehow I seem to miss it when writing Scheme, but also I'm not sure what I'm missing either.
2020-02-07T23:28:15Z jcowan: john00: EvAl is evIl.  If you are using eval, you almost certainly shouldn't be.
2020-02-07T23:28:33Z pjb: ((lambda (mandatory-arg1 mandatory-arg2 . other-args) (list 'my 'args 'are mandatory-arg1 mandatory-arg2  'and other-args)) 1 2 3 4)  -> (my args are 1 2 and (3 4))
2020-02-07T23:29:11Z pjb: john00: so you can use a single parameter to name the whole argument list, or a tail of it.
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2020-02-07T23:30:25Z john00: pjb: whoa
2020-02-07T23:31:02Z pjb: works also with define: (define (foo . all-args) …) or (define (foo a b . other-args) …)
2020-02-07T23:31:25Z pjb: since (define (foo . rest) …) == (define foo (lambda rest …))
2020-02-07T23:32:05Z john00: oh yes the dot-space-list makes perfect sense, I've been using it regularly. #!optional in chicken scheme is very nice also
2020-02-07T23:32:18Z pjb: in general, rest is a proper list: (define (foo  . (a b c)) …) == (define (foo a b c) …) = (define foo (lambda (a b c) …)) which makes only mandatory arguments.  But it can also be a symbol naming them all, or a dotted list for rest.
2020-02-07T23:32:57Z john00: I had no idea you could do (lambda args ...) 1 2 3) though
2020-02-07T23:34:04Z john00: and your last comment about rest as a proper list
2020-02-07T23:35:58Z john00: does the dot represent a cons or it is just sugar?
2020-02-07T23:38:53Z john00: it looks like the dot tail list thing also works in lambdas
2020-02-07T23:38:58Z john00: anyway thanks a ton pjb
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2020-02-07T23:42:57Z john00: no-defun-allowed: hey, so I think if you want interactivity your best option is probably Racket. its authors went to the trouble of making an IDE for it and it seems to be a batteries-included Scheme.
2020-02-07T23:43:41Z no-defun-allowed: I dunno, it still seems a step back from something like SLIME. Things like code reloading are sorely missed.
2020-02-07T23:43:51Z john00: jcowan: ;)
2020-02-07T23:44:16Z pjb: john00: in dotted lists the dot indeed represents the last cons, which doesn't contain the empty list in its cdr.
2020-02-07T23:44:53Z pjb: john00: If it's a list, then it's status as dotted list is reported. If it's an atom, then it's a dotted list.
2020-02-07T23:44:58Z john00: no-defun-allowed: well I haven't used either in any real depth so I can't really comment. but it does have an Emacs integration also, so, you know...
2020-02-07T23:45:02Z pjb: (a . (b . (c …
2020-02-07T23:45:21Z pjb: and of course, if it's the empty list, it's not a dotted list, but a proper list:
2020-02-07T23:45:32Z pjb: (a . (b . (c . ()))) == (a b c)
2020-02-07T23:45:42Z pjb: (a . (b . (c . d))) == (a b c . d)
2020-02-07T23:46:12Z no-defun-allowed: john00: So does Python, but you can't really do anything fancy with it.
2020-02-07T23:46:30Z pjb: john00: so, it's an important question indeed: literal cons cells are represented by the dot, not by the parentheses. There's no parentheses in lisp!
2020-02-07T23:48:13Z no-defun-allowed: Say, (to my knowledge) I can't run a server of some kind and C-c C-c something and have that update in the Scheme image.
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2020-02-07T23:48:28Z john00: no-defun-allowed: hey, don't shoot the messenger. all I'm saying is that when I was trying out various Scheme implementations Racket seemed like it was the most "complete" in the sense of effort put forth by its authors to integrate well with its environment. maybe another Scheme has its own full IDE but I can't think of one.
2020-02-07T23:48:55Z john00: no-defun-allowed: also, have you used elpy with Python?
2020-02-07T23:49:00Z no-defun-allowed: Sorry, I hope I'm not being impolite now.
2020-02-07T23:49:20Z john00: and what does C-c C-c do in SLIME?
2020-02-07T23:50:18Z no-defun-allowed: No, I haven't used Python very seriously and I hope I won't have to...C-c C-c re-does whatever the cursor is on; say if it's on a DEFUN, it'll recompile that function.
2020-02-07T23:50:21Z john00: pjb: yes, that makes perfect sense. except for "there are no parenthesis in lisp". what does that mean?
2020-02-07T23:51:05Z john00: no-defun-allowed: it sounds like you just want eval-definition
2020-02-07T23:52:24Z john00: no-defun-allowed: Geiser will give you that. `geiser-eval-definition` will run whatever function or expression your cursor is over in your open REPL. and if you don't have an open REPL, it'll open a REPL for you if you do C-c C-z
2020-02-07T23:52:52Z no-defun-allowed: Right. Guess I'll try to fiddle around with Geiser then.
2020-02-07T23:53:26Z john00: no-defun-allowed: right-o
2020-02-07T23:58:23Z john00: no-defun-allowed: and one other thing... Python is a great language. it really is. it has no macros and there's a One True Way to do everything, but between unbelievably terse generators, comprehensions, and customizable dunder methods, plus accessible hash maps and sets and other data structures in libraries, you can do a huge amount with very little effort.
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2020-02-08T00:00:14Z john00: oh well, lol
2020-02-08T00:00:26Z john00: thanks again pjb. you rock.
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2020-02-08T00:41:21Z Riastradh: john00 left, but if you're looking for list comprehension macros, maybe you might like <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.scm> (uses <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.scm>).
2020-02-08T00:41:48Z Riastradh: (documentation: s/scm/txt/)
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2020-02-08T02:15:19Z mdhughes: Today in R6RS was right: div & mod, not quotient & remainder.
2020-02-08T02:16:03Z mdhughes: "Yes, these clown shoes are traditional."
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2020-02-08T02:36:33Z zaifir: R7 provides a wealth of options there.
2020-02-08T02:44:16Z Riastradh: `div/mod' and `quotient/remainder' are both confusing.
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2020-02-08T02:50:59Z mdhughes: It adds modulo, which is still clown shoes.
2020-02-08T02:51:31Z mdhughes: Yes, I can and do redefine them back into place. Still annoying. And Chicken's not R7RS, after all.
2020-02-08T02:52:00Z Riastradh: (Not really, but mdhughes is probably still ignoring me and so won't hear anything about the history or the different reasonable choices of division operators for different purposes.)
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2020-02-08T02:53:53Z Riastradh: Some background: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/division.txt
2020-02-08T03:03:31Z Riastradh: (I do agree that euclidean is a good default if you must pick a short ambiguous name.)
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2020-02-08T03:11:40Z mdhughes: strike the line about modulo, I just looked at R7RS, and yes, it has many options. All long-winded names, but at least it could do the correct thing if you always remembered to use the right one.
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2020-02-08T17:05:58Z ullbeking: hellooooooo all!  i am currently building my own website.  a large part of it, if not all, if possible, will be based around a blog plus presentation in the web client.  originally i wanted to use wordpress, which i _still_ think is not a terrible choice.  anyway...
2020-02-08T17:06:43Z ullbeking: can somebody please tell me is there is a canonical list of different applications in scheme, in particular, blogs written in scheme?
2020-02-08T17:06:48Z ullbeking: i'm learning racket currently
2020-02-08T17:07:03Z ullbeking: there are two main reasons i want to stick with racket atm:
2020-02-08T17:07:26Z ullbeking: 1. rash looks like just what i want for cli shell operation
2020-02-08T17:08:05Z ullbeking: 2. i'm learning dependent types and Pie (the language in The Little Typer) is a sister language of Racket
2020-02-08T17:08:37Z ullbeking: (this second point makes me wonder whether dependent types would be useful for a blog.)
2020-02-08T17:08:44Z ullbeking: anyway...
2020-02-08T17:09:04Z ullbeking: in summary here is what i'm looking for:
2020-02-08T17:09:33Z ullbeking: - a scheme website that is scheme's equivalent of LTU
2020-02-08T17:09:50Z ullbeking: - a list of blogs written in scheme, pref. racket
2020-02-08T17:10:55Z ullbeking: - a book or some other resource that teaches scheme by building a practical application, e.g., a web-hosted photo album
2020-02-08T17:11:00Z ullbeking: .
2020-02-08T17:11:16Z ullbeking: thanks for any help!!
2020-02-08T17:11:19Z mdhughes: The URLs in the channel topic are a great start.
2020-02-08T17:11:36Z ullbeking: mdhughes: i looked at those...
2020-02-08T17:11:51Z ullbeking: i love SICP for its abstraction
2020-02-08T17:11:53Z mdhughes: The closest thing to an application-based book is Realm of Racket.
2020-02-08T17:12:07Z ullbeking: i love HTDP for its practical and pedagogical approach
2020-02-08T17:12:43Z ullbeking: ^^ thank you for the rec. for "The RoR"
2020-02-08T17:13:07Z ullbeking: AH!!!
2020-02-08T17:13:23Z ullbeking: schemers.org!  this is the "equivalent to LTU that I was looking for"
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2020-02-08T17:45:26Z mdhughes: There's a Planet Scheme aggregator, but I don't know how to add my site, I think nobody new's been added in years.
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2020-02-08T17:46:36Z mdhughes: I post about Scheme monthly-ish at http://mdhughes.tech/category/scheme/
2020-02-08T17:49:33Z weinholt: mdhughes, you can ask Jens Axel Søgaard to add your feed
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2020-02-08T17:57:58Z mdhughes: weinholt: Thanks, I @'d him on Twitter!
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2020-02-08T22:04:31Z ullbeking: thank you mdhughes !!!
2020-02-08T22:04:42Z ullbeking: i appreciate your suggestions; you rock :D
2020-02-08T22:06:25Z ullbeking: mdhughes: WP was my first choice for blogging software and it's still not eliminated from the choices... have you had any issues with it?  would you recommend it?  i tend to like the way that WP blogs present themselves (regardless of the theme they have the WP feel)
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2020-02-09T01:59:35Z ullbeking: can anybody please recommend some blogging software that is written in scheme?
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2020-02-09T02:07:55Z bandali: Haunt is my favourite: https://dthompson.us/projects/haunt.html
2020-02-09T02:08:03Z bandali: (in Guile scheme)
2020-02-09T02:08:23Z bandali: There's also Racket's Pollen https://docs.racket-lang.org/pollen/
2020-02-09T02:13:35Z mdhughes: I do use WordPress for my own blog. I used to write my own (in Perl and then PHP; deployment > elegance at the time).
2020-02-09T02:14:17Z mdhughes: Chicken's awful is pretty neat for writing web sites, I just wouldn't spend the effort again to get back up to WP tech level.
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2020-02-09T02:42:02Z oni-on-ion: does guix count as package manager for guile? =) checking out haunt, looks nice
2020-02-09T02:42:41Z bandali: :-) i think guix is at this point the de-facto package manager for guile
2020-02-09T02:43:30Z drakonis: and soon for whatever other thing guix absorbs into its repository
2020-02-09T02:44:06Z drakonis: having the ability to reliably deploy things is a godsend
2020-02-09T02:44:27Z bandali: indeed
2020-02-09T02:44:36Z bandali: and honestly, it doesn't even have to be in the guix repo itself
2020-02-09T02:44:46Z bandali: so long as guix has a build system for your language
2020-02-09T02:45:13Z bandali: and ideally if your deps are packaged, a guix.scm file in the root of your project should be enough :-)
2020-02-09T02:45:43Z drakonis: hell, if it has a build system and importers, something could be hacked up to deploy language specific code directly from the source repositories
2020-02-09T02:48:21Z bandali: +1 :-)
2020-02-09T02:49:04Z drakonis: provide a subset of guix for the explicit purpose of deploying language code
2020-02-09T02:49:42Z oni-on-ion: ohhh. going to start migrating sometime this weekend. (debian)
2020-02-09T02:49:50Z drakonis: cool
2020-02-09T02:50:13Z drakonis: so, it'd be a effective way to acquire new guile users, even if its just to learn how to drive the subset of guix involving its builders
2020-02-09T02:50:27Z drakonis: i should take it to #guix
2020-02-09T02:51:25Z oni-on-ion: guix sounds great. i may join there as well and lurk for a bit to learn more
2020-02-09T02:52:29Z drakonis: its real nice and always in need of new people
2020-02-09T02:53:58Z oni-on-ion: been about time , being on debian so long
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2020-02-09T02:57:05Z oriansj: hello, would anyone be interested in helping to solve the guile bootstrap problem?
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2020-02-09T12:56:10Z zig: OriansJ: What does it involve? Writing Scheme? or something else?
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2020-02-09T13:07:19Z bandali: oriansj, ^ that's my question as well; what's involved? how can we help?
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2020-02-09T13:37:12Z OriansJ: well there are parts to write in scheme and pieces for me to write in C
2020-02-09T13:37:43Z OriansJ: I need help figuring out which pieces are best written in scheme and which I should put into C
2020-02-09T13:38:20Z OriansJ: https://github.com/oriansj/mes-m2
2020-02-09T13:39:15Z OriansJ: The  mes_init.c lists all of the primitives currently contained within
2020-02-09T13:40:16Z bandali: aha
2020-02-09T13:40:27Z OriansJ: I have already made some things in scheme https://github.com/oriansj/mes-m2/blob/master/module/mes/boot-0.scm
2020-02-09T13:40:41Z OriansJ: So that records behave the same as guile
2020-02-09T13:42:22Z OriansJ: once it is capable of evaluating psyntax.pp; it can generate what is needed by guile to properly be bootstrapped
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2020-02-09T13:52:22Z OriansJ: So writing in scheme would be most of the work; (an occassional test written in scheme for me to implement a primitive in C is the rest)
2020-02-09T13:53:46Z OriansJ: So if I did a primitive wrong, write a test (or fix the broken test about that primitive that I did wrong). And my job is to get it passing with the same output as guile would
2020-02-09T13:54:23Z OriansJ: So relatively easy work, which doesn't take much time but will help alot
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2020-02-09T15:27:32Z bandali: i see. i'll see if i can have a good at it some time
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2020-02-09T15:31:04Z wasamasa: rudybot: autocorrupt strikes again
2020-02-09T15:31:05Z rudybot: wasamasa: spellchecking doesn't save me from autocorrupt
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2020-02-09T15:35:56Z zig: OriansJ: it will surely help if http://bootstrappable.org link to the code that bootstrap guix and have some diagram or at least the steps required to bootstrap.  I guess it falls under the Good First Issue in mes-m2 github repo related to documentation.
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2020-02-09T15:37:38Z bandali: wasamasa, good catch :-) need a "smart" spell/semantics checker for my brain when trying to form sentences
2020-02-09T15:42:11Z deesix: zig, I think you can find some of that info at the "talk-notes" repo.
2020-02-09T15:43:30Z deesix: github.com/oriansj/talk-notes IIRC
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2020-02-09T15:48:33Z OriansJ: zig: https://github.com/oriansj/talk-notes/blob/master/Current%20bootstrap%20map.pdf
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2020-02-09T15:51:47Z OriansJ: but I certainly can talk to rekado about updating bootstrappable.org
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2020-02-09T15:56:54Z zig: bootstrappable effort is very inspiring, I am happy to know that more distributions adopt it.
2020-02-09T15:57:55Z zig: there is guix, but I think suse also support the effort and debian too, at least they support the reproducible builds effort which is linked to bootstrap issues, IIUC.
2020-02-09T16:05:42Z OriansJ: zig: yep and the recent Gnu Mes release where guix, debian and Nix all managed to produce the exact same mes.c binary for bootstrapping was a major step forward.
2020-02-09T16:07:07Z OriansJ: once mes-m2 is done; everyone will be able to bootstrap from 357bytes
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2020-02-09T17:15:42Z zig: Coupon for the work-in-progress book I am putting together for arew scheme: https://leanpub.com/arew-scheme-book/c/8ER4ieZ7JTx0
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2020-02-09T22:10:31Z oni-on-ion: is there anything like Parenscript for scheme ?
2020-02-09T22:15:50Z oni-on-ion: okay, i've found it. http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/spock
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2020-02-09T22:40:32Z faLUCE: hello.  I have n = 3    and myList = '(4  5)  .   How could I find the next n that is not in myList?  (in this case ---> 6)
2020-02-09T22:42:37Z hidetora: faLUCE: What do we know about the list? Is it sorted?
2020-02-09T22:42:52Z faLUCE: hidetora: yes
2020-02-09T22:43:36Z faLUCE: for example:   '(2 3)    or  '(2 5 8)
2020-02-09T22:44:51Z faLUCE: then, if n = 1 and list = '(2 3)  ---> next n = 4   .     If n = 1 and list = '(2 5 8)  then next n = 3
2020-02-09T22:46:24Z hidetora: faLUCE: use memq to check if the integer is in the list
2020-02-09T22:47:08Z wasamasa: is memq safe to use here though?
2020-02-09T22:47:11Z wasamasa: why not memv?
2020-02-09T22:47:15Z faLUCE: hidetora: ok, but how can I implement a while() loop until the integer is not in the list?
2020-02-09T22:48:34Z wasamasa: if you have concluded srfi-1 doesn't do the trick, use a named let to do a loop
2020-02-09T22:50:09Z hidetora: faLUCE: use a named let or recurse
2020-02-09T22:50:47Z faLUCE: a lambda
2020-02-09T22:51:07Z hidetora: just recurse, n can be any integer > that the original n
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2020-02-09T22:51:39Z hidetora: and yes memv is better
2020-02-09T22:52:44Z faLUCE: what do I have to google?
2020-02-09T22:53:06Z pjb: (define (next-not-in-list n list) (if (member? n list) (next-not-in-list (+ 1 n) list) n))
2020-02-09T22:53:07Z wasamasa: you could practice recursion with The Little Schemer
2020-02-09T22:53:10Z faLUCE: I searched scheme + recurse
2020-02-09T22:53:14Z wasamasa: or SICP
2020-02-09T22:53:39Z faLUCE: thanks pjb
2020-02-09T22:53:57Z hidetora: there you go
2020-02-09T22:54:08Z hidetora: but if you want to call it with n=3
2020-02-09T22:54:11Z pjb: with (define (member? x list) (cond ((null? list) #f) ((eqv? x (car list))) (else #f)))
2020-02-09T22:54:17Z hidetora: you've got to do a minor change
2020-02-09T22:54:47Z pjb: faLUCE: you may want to test (member? (+ 1 n) list) instead.
2020-02-09T22:55:03Z pjb: (define (next-not-in-list n list) (if (member? (+ 1 n) list) (next-not-in-list (+ 1 n) list) n))
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2020-02-09T22:56:11Z pjb: Let me see, something's wrong…
2020-02-09T22:56:25Z hidetora: pjb: the last n
2020-02-09T22:56:44Z hidetora: pjb: the consequent should be (+ 1 n) as well
2020-02-09T22:56:53Z hidetora: pjb: *alternative
2020-02-09T22:57:38Z faLUCE: yes, it gives me wrong results
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2020-02-09T22:59:12Z pjb: it's my member? that is wrong. Try with: (define (member? x list) (cond ((null? list) #f) ((eqv? x (car list))) (else (member? x (cdr list)))))
2020-02-09T22:59:17Z pjb: and: (define (next-not-in-list n list) (let ((s (+ 1 n))) (if (member? s list) (next-not-in-list s list) s)))
2020-02-09T23:00:48Z faLUCE: that's great pjb
2020-02-09T23:02:39Z oni-on-ion: its great that its wrong ?
2020-02-09T23:02:53Z faLUCE: it works perfectly, I just tested it
2020-02-09T23:03:07Z faLUCE: why do you say it's wrong?
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2020-02-09T23:06:31Z faLUCE: in addition:  how can I sort myList?  there's http://s48.org/1.1/manual/s48manual_54.html   but it's not for srfi-1
2020-02-09T23:07:43Z wasamasa: that's something srfi-1 leaves for other srfis
2020-02-09T23:07:53Z wasamasa: you'll want to check your scheme implementation's docs
2020-02-09T23:08:06Z wasamasa: or just implement sorting, it's not that hard
2020-02-09T23:08:13Z faLUCE: wasamasa: do i have to check guile?
2020-02-09T23:08:28Z wasamasa: if it's guile you use, yes
2020-02-09T23:08:31Z wasamasa: only you can know
2020-02-09T23:08:53Z faLUCE: yes, the core uses guile
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2020-02-10T01:12:36Z drakonis: https://hyper.dev/blog/yet-another-scheme.html an intersting post.
2020-02-10T01:18:33Z drakonis: s/intersting/interesting
2020-02-10T01:23:12Z oni-on-ion: ohh this looks like just what i needed to read, thank you
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2020-02-10T03:17:42Z mdhughes: member, not member? since it returns a sublist on true…
2020-02-10T03:22:14Z mdhughes: http://paste.debian.net/1129973/
2020-02-10T03:22:52Z mdhughes: I dunno what you want on a null list, probably just n instead of #f
2020-02-10T03:23:44Z mdhughes: (or just remove that clause, not memv will work fine)
2020-02-10T03:26:04Z mdhughes: Anytime you're thinking about looping, think about tail recursion instead. Loops should be the last resort you use for bulk data.
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2020-02-10T05:28:14Z zaifir: "Anytime you're thinking about looping, think about tail recursion instead."  Even further: whatever construct you use to loop will probably just expand to a bunch of tail-calls, so the choice of construct comes down to what best expresses the computation you have in mind.
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2020-02-10T05:41:23Z aeth: heh
2020-02-10T05:41:49Z aeth: On the other hand, Common Lisp's philosophy is, "there's this giant macro called LOOP, so use it". I'm totally going to write a near-direct port of it into Scheme just for fun.
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2020-02-10T05:42:30Z zaifir: LOOP is really gross...
2020-02-10T05:42:34Z aeth: it is
2020-02-10T05:42:55Z Riastradh: ...maybe I could interest you in <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.scm> and <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.scm>...?
2020-02-10T05:43:22Z aeth: Riastradh: I'm going to write my own because I don't like one part about LOOP
2020-02-10T05:44:55Z aeth: (loop :for i :from 1 :to 10 :do (print i)) should be (loop (:for i :from 1 :to 10) (:do (print i))) and now it's immediately much Lispier/better. Or in the case of Scheme, (loop (:for i :from 1 :to 10) (:do (display i) (newline)))
2020-02-10T05:45:12Z aeth: I mean, assuming it's :foo instead of foo: or #:foo (if that's the 3rd, I forget) for keyword syntax
2020-02-10T05:45:40Z aeth: Not to mention that loop doesn't really care about keywords at all and permits (loop for i from 1 to 10 do (print i)) which I *really* don't like
2020-02-10T05:46:02Z Riastradh: (loop ((for i (up-from 1 (to 10)))) (display i) (newline))
2020-02-10T05:46:15Z aeth: I mean, if you think so
2020-02-10T05:46:24Z aeth: I guess Schemers aren't big on keyword arguments, either.
2020-02-10T05:46:30Z Riastradh: I don't merely think so; that actually works in foof-loop today.
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2020-02-10T05:47:10Z aeth: right, but I don't merely want something loop-like, I want a direct loop port, except perhaps for the extra s-expressions as described
2020-02-10T05:47:51Z aeth: I'm not sure if I'll support one or both syntaxes
2020-02-10T05:48:03Z Riastradh: Why do you want that?
2020-02-10T05:49:17Z aeth: Riastradh: Why do I want to put this on my todo list of features to implement? Well, you'll see. Ideally you'll see on the 29th
2020-02-10T05:51:38Z aeth: Riastradh: And what will happen on February 29th? No spoilers or leaks here.
2020-02-10T05:51:41Z Riastradh: Okey.  Well, I encourage you to study the design of foof-loop, at least.  (Unlike Common Lisp LOOP, it is extensible -- you can define your own looping keywords, and write little recursive state machines, and...)
2020-02-10T05:51:49Z aeth: heh
2020-02-10T05:51:54Z aeth: Yeah, CL has something sort of like that called ITERATE
2020-02-10T05:52:20Z aeth: I don't particularly care about extensible at the moment, though
2020-02-10T05:52:34Z aeth: It's more about completing certain projects.
2020-02-10T05:52:58Z Riastradh: ...you can use foof-loop today, without having to write your own reimplementation of half of Common Lisp afresh...
2020-02-10T05:53:02Z aeth: Riastradh: have any good resources on the implementation of continuations?
2020-02-10T05:53:09Z aeth: Riastradh: heh
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2020-02-10T05:53:30Z aeth: Riastradh: The thing is, you don't know my goals with Scheme at the moment
2020-02-10T05:54:03Z aeth: Ideally I can get enough things organized to make an announcement by the end of this month
2020-02-10T05:54:04Z Riastradh: True indeed.  Haven't the foggiest clue why CL LOOP would be more attractive than just about any alternative!
2020-02-10T05:54:30Z aeth: Well, I mean, think about what I'm trying to do with Scheme, if you remember.
2020-02-10T05:54:36Z Riastradh: Re implementations of continuations: Kind of a broad question; can you be more specific?
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2020-02-10T05:55:52Z aeth: Riastradh: The naive way to implement Scheme-style continuations so call/cc works is to rewrite everything into the Continuation Passing Style (CPS) so that call/cc, etc., sort of just fall out of the implementation itself. Unfortunately, this hurts some interesting features in the implementation of a Scheme and the CPS transformation is pretty tricky... and what's even trickier is untransforming it when it's not needed.
2020-02-10T05:55:54Z Riastradh: Usually either you'll have
2020-02-10T05:56:12Z Riastradh: - a fixed area in memory called the stack, whose frames you overwrite in place;
2020-02-10T05:56:28Z Riastradh: - a heap-allocated linked list of frames, so you can GC the unreferenced frames; or
2020-02-10T05:57:47Z Riastradh: - a mixture of the two -- a fixed area in memory sometimes called the stack cache, in which you push frames with pointers to the parent frames, and occasionally GC the live frames into the heap if the stack cache overflows
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2020-02-10T05:58:25Z Riastradh: The first is roughly what (compiled) MIT Scheme does; the second is what, I dunno, various naive systems do; the third is what Scheme48 and Chicken do.
2020-02-10T05:59:17Z aeth: Riastradh: That's too low-level, though. When creating a Scheme via transpilation, you have the host stack, and then you have to create continuations within that sort of thinking, which is usually done through (or at least most straightforwardly done via) a rewriting macro to rewrite "native" lambdas into CPS, which then makes the continuations explicit.
2020-02-10T05:59:39Z aeth: Or at least, that's about as much as I've gathered.
2020-02-10T05:59:40Z Riastradh: (why does the word `transpile' exist...?)
2020-02-10T06:00:00Z aeth: Riastradh: To demonstrate that the compiler doesn't have the ability to think in terms of "a fixed area in memory" :-p
2020-02-10T06:00:50Z aeth: Some even aim to generate idiomatic-seeming code of the host language.
2020-02-10T06:01:16Z Riastradh: What do you mean by `this hurts some interesting features in the implementation of a Scheme and the CPS transformation is pretty tricky'?
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2020-02-10T06:02:24Z aeth: Riastradh: when you do continuation passing style in a "transpilation" compilation, you really do sort of mutilate the generated code quite a bit, and probably hurt the ability of the host compiler to see what's going on a bit too much.
2020-02-10T06:03:08Z Riastradh: Basic CPS transformation is pretty simple; if you want to avoid `administrative redexes' it just takes a little more work -- basically you pass around a meta-continuation that can either be reified into a syntactic term if you need it to manifest in the output, or applied at compile-time to a syntactic term if you don't need it to manifest in the output.
2020-02-10T06:03:34Z Riastradh: (Kind of verbose example here: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/cps.scm)
2020-02-10T06:04:55Z Riastradh: Well, if you can prove that the continuations don't escape then you can simplify the resulting code.
2020-02-10T06:05:22Z Riastradh: If you can't, then, well, not much can be done unless the host compiler is better than you are at escape analysis...
2020-02-10T06:06:11Z aeth: All of this sounds like a little bit much. You write several hundred lines to write it in the continuation passing style, and then do an escape analysis just to rewrite it back to "normal" when there's no (or when there's limited) continuations
2020-02-10T06:06:36Z aeth: It seems to me like it would be more ideal if there's a less direct way to achieve the same result
2020-02-10T06:10:04Z aeth: If I were writing a Scheme implementation, I would ideally want the generated procedures to look to the compiler like functions or lambdas in the host language, to the extent that most optimizations from the host language compiler would still be doable on the generated code, and I'd be afraid that explicit continuations as CPS in the generation remove too much
2020-02-10T06:10:48Z Riastradh: I mean...it would be nice if there were magic that could solve the problem for you, but you're asking for:
2020-02-10T06:10:54Z Riastradh: (a) first-class continuations
2020-02-10T06:11:10Z Riastradh: (b) eliminating them where unnecessary
2020-02-10T06:11:23Z Riastradh: which kinda requires that _someone_ do the escape analysis to figure out which first-class continuations don't need to be reified.
2020-02-10T06:15:05Z Riastradh: For a simple approximation, you could mark all the procedures which you know don't do call-with-current-continuation, and extend that to all procedures that only call those procedures.  Then do CPS conversion, but skip it for the procedure calls to known-safe procedures.
2020-02-10T06:23:32Z aeth: Riastradh: isn't it more likely, at least in "normal" code for exactly the opposite to happen?
2020-02-10T06:23:40Z Riastradh: ?
2020-02-10T06:23:45Z aeth: Riastradh: That is, to assume that first-class continuations are the exception, not the norm
2020-02-10T06:24:09Z aeth: Riastradh: Which I guess is what you said at the end
2020-02-10T06:24:17Z aeth: I wrote my reply while reading it, sorry :-p
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2020-02-10T06:24:35Z aeth: I didn't expect for you to have the correct answer there
2020-02-10T06:24:46Z aeth: :-)
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2020-02-10T06:25:47Z aeth: Riastradh: Essentially, when call/cc is happening, then do CPS (although there might be a limited continuation detectable in some way?), otherwise leave as a normal "transpile" into native or native-like lambdas?
2020-02-10T06:26:55Z Riastradh: Well, do you want it to work for all code, or do you want it to be limited to narrow scopes and not work across unknown procedure boundaries?
2020-02-10T06:26:57Z aeth: I guess dynamic procedure recompiling (like what is common in CL implementations) might get in the way, though, because the procedure you're calling might be modified to add a call/cc and now you need to remove the optimizing assumptions. Perhaps requiring tracking the callers.
2020-02-10T06:27:13Z aeth: heh, that's pretty similar to what I was writing
2020-02-10T06:28:02Z aeth: We are almost on the same page, it seems.
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2020-02-10T06:35:48Z Riastradh: aeth: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20200209/cps.scm
2020-02-10T06:36:04Z Riastradh: Considerably simpler version.
2020-02-10T06:36:37Z Riastradh: Construct your syntax tree with the cps/... procedures.  Use cps/app for procedure calls that need a first-class continuation; cps/prime for procedure calls that don't.
2020-02-10T06:38:18Z Riastradh: (Extending to if, begin, multiple return values, unspecified evaluation order, &c., left as an exercise for the reader.)
2020-02-10T06:39:42Z Riastradh: cps/prim
2020-02-10T06:48:07Z aeth: Riastradh: ok if I remember I'll look at that in a bit
2020-02-10T06:48:22Z aeth: hopefully it's doable in 48 hours, Scheme48 did it :-)
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2020-02-10T06:55:29Z Riastradh: It's short!
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2020-02-10T07:25:34Z cobax: Hi all. Does anyone know of an algebraic effect handler library for Scheme? I know of Oleg's delimcc.scm but I do not know how to write "use" and "handle" in terms of pushPrompt and takeCont...
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2020-02-10T08:50:45Z future-schemer-9: hello, is it the home of schemers?
2020-02-10T08:51:21Z mario-goulart: Hi future-schemer-9. Yes.
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2020-02-10T08:51:26Z oni-on-ion: schemers are here
2020-02-10T08:53:12Z mario-goulart: There are also separate channels for the various scheme implementations.
2020-02-10T08:56:43Z future-schemer-9: Thanks!
2020-02-10T08:56:50Z future-schemer-9: I am just looking around :)
2020-02-10T08:57:49Z zig: welcome future-schemer-9
2020-02-10T09:02:31Z zig: I should probably bring back scheme-lang.com since it is paid until at least june.
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2020-02-10T09:05:42Z wasamasa: did anything happen from the readscheme effort
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2020-02-10T09:05:51Z wasamasa: I discovered I have a mirror of it
2020-02-10T09:06:29Z zig: there is a backup at https://github.com/arew-scheme/bibliography#bibliography-of-scheme-related-research
2020-02-10T09:06:35Z zig: but it needs some love.
2020-02-10T09:07:17Z wasamasa: well that's nice
2020-02-10T09:07:31Z wasamasa: I could imagine a dns record pointing towards that repo
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2020-02-10T09:11:43Z wasamasa: what work is left?
2020-02-10T09:11:53Z wasamasa: going through all links and fixing the broken ones?
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2020-02-10T09:25:59Z zig: there is that. There is also the fact that the bibliography is grossly incomplete.
2020-02-10T09:26:23Z zig: I just find out that there is no easy way to find the DOI of a publication given its title :/
2020-02-10T09:28:35Z wasamasa: as for another topic, does anyone remember the racket blog post (might have been Matthew Flatt) where they explain why exactly they discourage traditional lisp-style development in favor of just reloading files in drracket?
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2020-02-10T11:25:43Z mdhughes: Oh, they did that out of malice? I assumed incompetence. I *loathe* that behavior, it makes the REPL useless.
2020-02-10T11:26:27Z mdhughes: Especially since command-line racket works normally.
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2020-02-10T12:56:18Z sunwukong: zig: how about crossref.org?
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2020-02-10T13:57:56Z zig: sunwukong: it does not seems like a serious service.
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2020-02-10T14:05:49Z jboy: zig: https://search.crossref.org/ helps with locating DOIs
2020-02-10T14:06:51Z jboy: or lens.org
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2020-02-10T14:56:06Z zig: jboy: oh search.crossref.org is what I was looking for... but it does work very well
2020-02-10T14:56:09Z zig: for instance: https://search.crossref.org/?q=Hygienic+Literate+Programming+Lessons+from+ChezWEB
2020-02-10T14:56:26Z zig: mind the: "Page 1 of 4954094 results"
2020-02-10T14:56:58Z zig: does NOT work very well.
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2020-02-10T14:59:06Z jboy: stuff that came out in random conference proceedings might not have been assigned a DOI, making it invisible to crossref et al.
2020-02-10T15:01:03Z jboy: Scopus, WoS, MS Academic or even Google Scholar are a bit more encompassing
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2020-02-10T15:38:39Z zig: indeed.
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2020-02-10T19:37:07Z jcowan: Title to DOI mapping is never going to have a general solution, because titles are not unique
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2020-02-10T20:40:28Z lockywolf: How can I write a "nested" mutative function? That is, if I want a function a! to mutate some variable using a function c!. If I just call (c! variable), c! would mutate a copy of variable, not the original variable.
2020-02-10T20:41:49Z lockywolf: That is (define (a! mutable) (c! mutable)) doesn't work, because the inner mutable is a copy of the original one, not the original one.
2020-02-10T20:42:22Z zaifir: You could use a box.
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2020-02-10T20:44:55Z zaifir: lockywolf: (define (c! box) ... (set-box! box ...)), and just make sure a! gets/passes a box.
2020-02-10T20:50:24Z lockywolf: Okay.
2020-02-10T20:51:50Z zaifir: lockywolf: You'll need SRFI 111/(scheme box), although it's really simple to define a box type with define-record-type.
2020-02-10T20:52:50Z lockywolf: Yes, I'm already reading it.
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2020-02-10T21:06:01Z lockywolf: So, basically it is not possible to write c! without properly preparing the data in a!?
2020-02-10T21:06:31Z lockywolf: That is, if a! is a function written by someone else that I would better not touch.
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2020-02-10T21:10:08Z wasamasa: you just discovered the power of contracts
2020-02-10T21:10:51Z erkin: Good evening.
2020-02-10T21:11:58Z wasamasa: bonus: you rediscovered the law of GIGO
2020-02-10T21:12:05Z wasamasa: garbage in, garbage out
2020-02-10T21:15:15Z lockywolf: (box) is in (scheme red). convienient
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2020-02-10T21:33:49Z lockywolf: hm.. doesn't seem to be doing what I want it to be doing
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2020-02-10T21:53:51Z zig: oh oh oh!
2020-02-10T21:54:51Z zig: someone bought my (wip) book!!!!
2020-02-10T21:55:11Z zig: I am support happy!
2020-02-10T21:56:56Z zig: I hope they will not request a refund :p
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2020-02-10T22:00:58Z zig: And the best thing is that they paid the full price ($20)
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2020-02-10T22:53:46Z lockywolf: zig, and your book is?
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2020-02-10T22:56:10Z lockywolf: It's super weird... If my variable has a value of pair, I can set modify it with set-car! and set-cdr!, and everyone who knows something about this pair, will get the changes propagated to them. But it doesn't work if the value of the variable is anything else. Counter-intuitiveness god level.
2020-02-10T22:56:41Z lockywolf: So I end up having everything wrapped into a pair.
2020-02-10T22:56:56Z lockywolf: ('useless-tag . useful-value)
2020-02-10T23:00:16Z aeth: lockywolf: 1-length vectors (or 0D arrays where supported) are other ways to do that
2020-02-10T23:00:29Z aeth: those will have a length prefix in memory, though
2020-02-10T23:01:19Z aeth: lockywolf: additionally if you store things as '(useful-value . ()) you are effectively using a 1-length list, which is another alternative
2020-02-10T23:01:30Z aeth: (i.e. that's the same as '(useful-value))
2020-02-10T23:02:12Z aeth: You can also go the Javaish route and use the record/struct equivalent that your implementation has.
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2020-02-10T23:03:28Z aeth: For completeness, you also have 1-length hash-tables, where available
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2020-02-10T23:07:32Z lockywolf: aeth, I am just amused that there is not something like set-by-reference!
2020-02-10T23:08:56Z aeth: lockywolf: In Common Lisp, you'd declare a variable dynamically scoped to do something roughly like that. Maybe some Schemes let you do that, but lexical scoping is kinda the point of Scheme.
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2020-02-10T23:09:26Z lockywolf: The point that is easily circumvented by using a cons?
2020-02-10T23:09:59Z erkin: I think Scheme would be better off without set-car! and set-cdr! for what it's worth.
2020-02-10T23:11:45Z lockywolf: Well, not everything can be done immutably.
2020-02-10T23:12:36Z erkin: Is that so?
2020-02-10T23:12:51Z lockywolf: Also, in which sense is this breaking lexical scoping?
2020-02-10T23:13:32Z lockywolf: The functions still refer to the variables within the environments where these functions were defined.
2020-02-10T23:13:48Z lockywolf: (free variables)
2020-02-10T23:15:36Z lockywolf: erkin, well, I am not a lawyer, but some srfis provide two implementations, the one using mutable operations and the one not using. And those differ in speed.
2020-02-10T23:16:10Z erkin: If I were looking for speed, I'd just use Fortran.
2020-02-10T23:16:21Z aeth: Mutable data structures are well-studied. Immutable ones can be tricky. And dynamically typed immutable ones are entering uncharted territory since most of the immutability fans are Haskell fans.
2020-02-10T23:16:24Z erkin: Or get an Adderall prescription. ;-)
2020-02-10T23:17:00Z erkin: aeth: I think that's an unfair generalisation. Clojure has done a lot for immutable data structures within dynamic functional programming ecosystem.
2020-02-10T23:17:07Z erkin: Persistent data structures are wonderful.
2020-02-10T23:17:59Z erkin: Same with Erlang before that.
2020-02-10T23:18:03Z aeth: erkin: Does Clojure have the academic attention like Haskell and the ML family (ML as in the language, not machine learning), though?
2020-02-10T23:18:13Z erkin: Trick question: No language does.
2020-02-10T23:18:17Z zig: my scheme article dubbed "Scheme fatigue" has been sitting on the frontpage of lobsters all-day-long: https://lobste.rs/s/ksii7h/scheme_fatigue
2020-02-10T23:23:46Z lockywolf: Well, the answer to "is that so" apparently is "yes it is"?
2020-02-10T23:23:54Z erkin shrugs
2020-02-10T23:23:56Z lockywolf: Even if it required resorting to Fortran.
2020-02-10T23:24:23Z erkin: We have orthogonal approaches to software development, I see.
2020-02-10T23:24:55Z erkin: I value readability, debuggability and maintainability more than raw performance.
2020-02-10T23:25:59Z aeth: erkin: eh, it doesn't really matter in a Lisp
2020-02-10T23:26:24Z erkin: Well, yeah, the difference is much narrower with Lisps.
2020-02-10T23:26:44Z aeth: erkin: as long as you don't care about using macros that are specific to you, you can write ugly, performance-optimal code (even if it can't be idiomatically expressed in something like functions and would normally require a ton of boilerplate)
2020-02-10T23:27:02Z aeth: And then you can just compartmentalize that away into an abstraction just like a function abstraction
2020-02-10T23:28:03Z erkin: I'm not saying "mutation is necessarily evil." My mindset is that it should be avoided at high-level code as much as possible.
2020-02-10T23:28:32Z aeth: erkin: I see Lisps more as a language for writing declarative and/or functional languages rather than a declarative and/or functional language
2020-02-10T23:28:50Z aeth: And the lower level of FP might be mutation heavy, it's just not at the exposed layer
2020-02-10T23:28:53Z erkin: If I were obsessed with immutability at all levels, I would switch from a Scheme that compiles to C than one that compiles to Haskell. ;-)
2020-02-10T23:29:05Z erkin: s/than/to/
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2020-02-10T23:31:08Z lockywolf: That is not about "approaches" that is about being factually correct.
2020-02-10T23:31:28Z erkin: About which facts exactly?
2020-02-10T23:31:50Z lockywolf: "Well, not everything can be done immutably"
2020-02-10T23:32:04Z aeth: erkin: You still have mutability, you're just adding a new middle layer :-p
2020-02-10T23:32:16Z aeth: erkin: You're going to have to start getting into hardware design if you want to be really purist
2020-02-10T23:32:24Z erkin: Hahah
2020-02-10T23:32:29Z mdhughes: The way I resolve the whole "mutate state somewhere else" is pass around a data structure. Or keep a global reference to that structure, and reach in to change it.
2020-02-10T23:32:42Z erkin: Purely functional hardware design, eh?
2020-02-10T23:33:50Z mdhughes: Then if I want to change what I'm targeting, say for testing, I just pass in a different state object.
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2020-02-10T23:34:50Z aeth: destroy the universe and create a new one each time you want to make a change. That's purely functional
2020-02-10T23:35:06Z erkin: Purely functional apple pie
2020-02-10T23:35:42Z mdhughes: Sure. Not very efficient, but not everyone cares about 60fps.
2020-02-10T23:36:56Z aeth: I do
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2020-02-10T23:38:38Z erkin: Flow-based programming can be very high-performance.
2020-02-10T23:41:18Z aeth: If you're doing something that's thinking in terms of "fps" (or really, mspf, which is a better measure) what you're probably going to do is preallocate everything before the loop
2020-02-10T23:42:20Z aeth: Depending on the language/macro, this doesn't mean that the actual programming style uses mutation, though
2020-02-10T23:42:31Z aeth: Probably, though. That sort of stuff is just so easily expressed as numeric arrays.
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2020-02-10T23:48:49Z mdhughes: It's really not, if you want to work at a reasonably high level of abstraction. Most of my data are vectors of vectors with symbols and integers in them, but you can't get away with immutable in non-trivial games.
2020-02-10T23:49:54Z lockywolf: "preallocate everything before the loop" sounds a lot like MATLAB
2020-02-10T23:49:56Z mdhughes: At least in my networking work, all the mutation's at the C level either over select or talking to a database.
2020-02-10T23:52:45Z nisstyre: zig: nice article
2020-02-10T23:54:54Z aeth: mdhughes: Depends on what you mean by immutable. You could probably write enough of a macro so that the user is never expected to set-foo! anything
2020-02-10T23:55:23Z aeth: mdhughes: Also, a simple 2D game can be written in the 'wrong' way, especially without MP.
2020-02-10T23:58:57Z mdhughes: I mean the old LISP (or more recently in Racket's "universe") model of producing an entirely new structure each update; even if many of the lists are copied each time.
2020-02-11T00:13:33Z jcowan: zig: If you want minimalism, go for Bottom Scheme
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2020-02-11T00:25:19Z faLUCE: hello.  What is (foo bar) in scheme?   is it a list?
2020-02-11T00:27:35Z erkin: Depends on the context.
2020-02-11T00:27:41Z erkin: But yes, that does look like a list.
2020-02-11T00:28:18Z erkin: If you put it in your code unquoted, the evaluator will consider it a function application.
2020-02-11T00:30:29Z faLUCE: thnks erkin
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2020-02-11T00:31:00Z erkin: No problem.
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2020-02-11T00:31:53Z aeth: faLUCE: in general (foo bar baz) is foo(bar, baz) in other languages, unless it's a macro (in which case it could be anything) or is quoted (like '(foo bar baz))
2020-02-11T00:31:58Z aeth: I added one term so I could put a comma in there
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2020-02-11T00:36:13Z pjb: or is in some macro (syntax) or special operator.
2020-02-11T00:36:33Z pjb: faLUCE: so, in summary, we cannot tell. Show more context!
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2020-02-11T00:38:32Z mdhughes: "It's an sexpr"
2020-02-11T00:39:08Z mdhughes: a sexpr? Hm. Now I question my pronounciation.
2020-02-11T00:39:30Z erkin: For me: a sexpr but an s-expr
2020-02-11T00:40:47Z mdhughes: Right, but I'm not sure I've said it verbally often, so is it a sex-purr, or an ess-ex-purr? Former's more fun.
2020-02-11T00:41:33Z mdhughes: Anyway, it's parens around a buncha stuff, that a Scheme (read) function would accept.
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2020-02-11T00:42:58Z pjb: S-expression, or symbolic expression.
2020-02-11T00:43:42Z pjb: Sexprs are atoms, or lists of atoms.  Since atoms are anything that is not a cons cell, and lists are made of chained cons cells, and include dotted lists, including single cons cells, it is to say that sexps are actually any lisp object.
2020-02-11T00:43:57Z pjb: Therefore it's the same to say absolutely nothing.
2020-02-11T00:44:16Z pjb: faLUCE: Again, if you want to know more than absolutely nothing, you need to give us more context!
2020-02-11T00:45:15Z pjb: Correction: sexps are atoms, or lists of sexps.
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2020-02-11T01:02:08Z ullbeking: does anybody know of blogging engines written in scheme, preferably racket?  i'm not hugely fussy aside from the desire to see how web application "best practices" can be implemented in scheme :-)
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2020-02-11T01:03:11Z erkin: https://github.com/greghendershott/frog
2020-02-11T01:04:26Z ullbeking: thank you erkin
2020-02-11T01:04:36Z erkin: No problem.
2020-02-11T01:04:45Z erkin: There's also https://dthompson.us/projects/haunt.html but it's in Guile.
2020-02-11T01:05:03Z ullbeking: I am also keen on Guile :-)
2020-02-11T01:05:42Z ullbeking: (Racket is my most useful now b/c dependent types extensions and rash)
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2020-02-11T01:06:14Z ullbeking: any blog generators that are a little bit more ... dynamic ... ?
2020-02-11T01:06:37Z ullbeking: static site generators never really felt right to me
2020-02-11T01:07:05Z erkin: What dynamism do you need on a blog anyway? ;-P
2020-02-11T01:07:33Z erkin: Jokes aside, I don't think there's one.
2020-02-11T01:07:47Z erkin: Racket has some pretty good documentation about making dynamic webapps.
2020-02-11T01:09:20Z aeth: I personally prefer static site generators because you can get literally free hosting with those (e.g. Github, Gitlab, etc.)
2020-02-11T01:09:24Z aeth: That's probably why they're so popular
2020-02-11T01:09:34Z mdhughes: It'd be pretty easy to make one in awful. These days I suggest using someone else's blog engine so you don't reinvent everything, but in the good old days everyone wrote their own blog engine.
2020-02-11T01:09:53Z mdhughes: s/awful/& (Chicken library)/
2020-02-11T01:10:04Z erkin: I don't even use a blog generator.
2020-02-11T01:10:13Z erkin: Everything on my website is written by hand.
2020-02-11T01:10:23Z erkin: Minimal CSS, no scripts.
2020-02-11T01:10:47Z mdhughes: I've been really happy since moving all my shit to WordPress. I know it's fucking PHP down there, and I deal with it once a year or so, but it just works.
2020-02-11T01:11:14Z erkin: I'm cadging off GitHub Pages. ;-)
2020-02-11T01:11:30Z mdhughes: OH, I forgot about this: http://textboard.org/prog/list
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2020-02-11T01:11:41Z mdhughes: It's a scheme -chan clone.
2020-02-11T01:11:56Z erkin: In MIT/GNU Scheme, no less.
2020-02-11T01:11:56Z mdhughes: There's a couple others, don't have the link handy
2020-02-11T01:12:11Z mdhughes: The most -chan of the Schemes.
2020-02-11T01:12:42Z erkin: I never understood why SICP became a meme on the interwebs.
2020-02-11T01:13:18Z mdhughes: Because it's universally praised as good by comp sci, but too hard for a lot of people, so it's what smart people read.
2020-02-11T01:13:47Z mdhughes: It's like the little girl with a physics book in Men In Black. "She about to start some shit."
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2020-02-11T01:31:56Z zaifir: There are many hard CS books out there that haven't attained meme status.  A quick search reveals not a single memey image involving the Dragon Book, for example.
2020-02-11T01:32:42Z zaifir: Maybe it's the mystique of Lisp and SICP's weird, magic-oriented cover.
2020-02-11T01:33:11Z zaifir: It *can't* be the catchy title!
2020-02-11T01:37:49Z erkin: zaifir: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/laynH/Anime-Girls-Holding-Programming-Books/master/Compilers/Tohru_Kanna_Kobayashi_Excited_for_Compilers.png
2020-02-11T01:37:50Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/d4Lm5iLs8a
2020-02-11T01:38:43Z zaifir: erkin: I stand corrected!
2020-02-11T01:38:54Z zaifir: That's actually really appropriate.
2020-02-11T01:38:58Z erkin: Haha
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2020-02-11T01:46:25Z mdhughes: Double appropriate: There's CS books on Kobayashi's bookshelves, she's a Python programmer by day.
2020-02-11T01:47:00Z mdhughes: Which I wonder if they looked for a snake-based language, or just that's what everyone does?
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2020-02-11T02:19:01Z ullbeking: Is "the scheme programming language" by dybvig playful and practical as well as being definitive, in the tradition of its namesake?
2020-02-11T02:22:19Z erkin: Depends on your definition of playfulness, I'd say.
2020-02-11T02:22:53Z ullbeking: Do you think it's one those immediately obvious things, like right handed or left handed, as to whether Scheme or CL appeals to them instinctively?
2020-02-11T02:23:10Z erkin: Interesting question.
2020-02-11T02:23:48Z erkin: I was drawn to Scheme because I'm a functional programmer and it's a pain to do clean FP in CL.
2020-02-11T02:25:31Z ullbeking: "playfulness" in that context means being productive and working on real, relevant snippets of real code -- integrated into the language learning.
2020-02-11T02:27:21Z ullbeking: For K&R2 it's pedagogical model was that working on parts of the standard library or using system calls, and THAT was playful and productive, because the authors were gifted.
2020-02-11T02:28:40Z erkin: I don't think I'm equipped to scrutinise a book with such a definition.
2020-02-11T02:29:04Z ullbeking: PSA Did somebody mention MATLAB way back there, in the backlog, which I saw and forgot as I was scrolling through?
2020-02-11T02:29:21Z erkin: But it's got exercises and interesting example use-cases.
2020-02-11T02:29:40Z ullbeking: You are referring to Dybvig yes
2020-02-11T02:29:50Z erkin: TSPL, yes.
2020-02-11T02:30:46Z ullbeking: I decided to learn Scheme from "The Little Schemer"
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2020-02-11T02:31:24Z erkin: Good call.
2020-02-11T02:32:29Z ullbeking: I have several aims, which I will write about in my blog
2020-02-11T02:33:32Z ullbeking: Btw mdhughes I am also seriously considering WordPress.  Has it caused you a y issues?
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2020-02-11T02:35:39Z ullbeking: (I'm researching several different blogging frameworks.  One is based on Py+Flask and this is where the idea of writing my own blog engine cane from)
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2020-02-11T02:35:46Z ullbeking: For experience
2020-02-11T02:36:49Z ullbeking: PHP is on my list of languages too to call
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2020-02-11T02:38:10Z ullbeking: s/call/learn anyway/
2020-02-11T03:06:42Z mdhughes: WP is great IF you have Jetpack. I don't use the Gutenberg editor, only the old editor and Markdown which Jetpack adds.
2020-02-11T03:07:46Z mdhughes: The big feature for me is the media library. Instead of uploading files to a named dir, trying to remember their sizes, etc, just dump them in the library, give them good descriptions for search.
2020-02-11T03:09:05Z mdhughes: Works fine for zip files, too, so a lot of file hosting is easy. And then I have a hierarchy of pages, which are also all Markdown.
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2020-02-11T03:10:39Z mdhughes: As for books, I found TSPL the most useful "actually coding in Scheme" book. SICP's better at theory, TSPL's the kind of book O'Reilly used to publish.
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2020-02-11T05:06:37Z ullbeking: thank you for the insightful feedback, mdhughes
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2020-02-11T05:06:59Z ullbeking: i should look at my copy of TSPL a little more closely then...
2020-02-11T05:08:08Z ullbeking: mdhughes: do you have to pay to use jetpack?
2020-02-11T05:09:23Z ullbeking: and yes, a collaborative media libraru is something we want to build so we can share photos and upload from all over the world, and our family overseas can see their own favs whenever they want (as opposed to trawling through loads of emails)
2020-02-11T05:10:32Z mdhughes: I get it "free" with my Dreamhost hosting, but they have a bunch of plans, free and paid.
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2020-02-11T09:47:04Z jboy: erkin: there's also this: https://wingolog.org/projects/tekuti/
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2020-02-11T10:48:56Z zig: https://sans-io.readthedocs.io/
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2020-02-11T11:19:08Z lockywolf: ullbeking, I mentioned MATLAB
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2020-02-11T11:44:41Z lockywolf: SICP is memetic because it is officially promoted as an introductory level textbook, while in practice being unlikely to be successful in this aim
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2020-02-11T12:04:48Z lockywolf_: Does it destroy only the first binding for a variable found, or all of them?
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2020-02-11T12:40:41Z zig: it has the merit to exist.
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2020-02-11T12:54:10Z lockywolf_: works completely differently in every scheme implementation?
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2020-02-11T14:32:23Z zig: I think SICP is a good book, but getting throught at once, without help, is difficult and not helpful.  It does not help scratch an itch, it is more like food for thought
2020-02-11T14:32:58Z pjb: zig: there are also the sicp lecture videos.
2020-02-11T14:33:16Z zig: I am not into videos much.
2020-02-11T14:34:00Z zig: I read SICP from time to time and when people refer to a particular chapter I try to read it. I never did the exercices.
2020-02-11T14:34:57Z zig: It is difficult, maybe impossible to say SICP (or another book) is the one true way, different person need different things etc...
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2020-02-11T14:46:31Z ecraven: does anyone know *why* the letters are not contiguous in EBCDIC?
2020-02-11T14:53:54Z pjb: ecraven: they are, on the punched cards.
2020-02-11T14:54:16Z pjb: punched cards had at first 10 rows, one row for each base-ten digit.
2020-02-11T14:54:25Z pjb: They were based on base ten!
2020-02-11T14:54:50Z pjb: Also, it was easier to map a single hole onto a digit, and it made for sturdier cards (unless you filled the card with the same digit…
2020-02-11T14:55:37Z pjb: ecraven: then they thought about encoding characters, so they added two rows, 11, and 12.
2020-02-11T14:56:13Z pjb: ecraven: but since that added only 20 more codes, you could actually combine 11 and 12 (so they're binary rows), making for a total of 10 * 4 = 40 codes.
2020-02-11T14:56:34Z pjb: ecraven: which wasn't enough, so eventually, they allowed two holes in the 0-9 rows too…
2020-02-11T14:57:30Z ecraven: pjb: thanks.. why doesn't the wikipedia page just say so... I was wondering, why there were always blocks of 9
2020-02-11T14:57:35Z pjb: EBCDIC is a direct mapping of those encodings, knowing that to encoding a base-ten digit, you need 4 bits, so 4+2 = 6 bits, and that leaves holes in the coding system.
2020-02-11T14:58:48Z pjb: the 1401 had a core memory that was wired exactly like this: 4 bits for a decimal digit, plus two bits a and b for the 11 and 12 row, to encode characters, plus 1 mark bit to delimit the fields, plus 1 parity bit (important at that time) to make 8-bit per digit or character.
2020-02-11T14:59:35Z pjb: The S-35 followed suit. Clones of the S-35, including late clones implemented as simulators on binary 8-bit processors also.
2020-02-11T14:59:43Z pjb: My first job was on such a machine :-)
2020-02-11T15:00:01Z pjb: (well, it didn't have the mark bit, instead the instruction specified the length of the fields).
2020-02-11T15:00:10Z pjb: in decimal, of course.
2020-02-11T15:01:16Z pjb: Each instruction took 10 characters, 1 code, 4 address, 1 modifier, 4 address. But since the memory was extended a more than 9999 bytes, we also used the upper bits in the address bytes :-)
2020-02-11T15:01:37Z pjb: The crazy things you do when you don't throw away legacy…
2020-02-11T15:01:59Z pjb: Hence the success of Elon Musk.
2020-02-11T15:02:33Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card#/media/File:Blue-punch-card-front-horiz.png
2020-02-11T15:02:39Z pjb: This gives the code…
2020-02-11T15:05:31Z pjb: The first commercial application of computers was accounting, so it was important that sums (and tax rate products) be exact.  Hence the use of decimal arithmetic. With binary floating points, we all know the problems, adding (+ 0.1d0 0.1d0 0.1d0) #| --> 0.30000000000000004D0 |#
2020-02-11T15:07:03Z pjb: Also, even already in the 40's, the range of (expt 2 35) #| --> 343 597 383 . 68 |#  was insufficient to perform the accounting of the US and it's main corporations.
2020-02-11T15:07:31Z pjb: Therefore it was really essential to have this decimal PIC 99999999999999999.99 data type…
2020-02-11T15:10:42Z ecraven: pjb: thanks for explaining in detail ;) very interesting!
2020-02-11T15:16:33Z pjb: One funny bit of this BCD encoding (binary coded decimal is the name of this encoding of base-ten digit -> 4-bit), is that it would allow you to type in instruction from the keyboard (originally, of course, the punch cards).  So you could bootstrap the machine by entering an instruction or a few instructions at the terminal.  For example, 00001 RET would store 0000100000 at the address 0, which then would be executed and would m
2020-02-11T15:16:33Z pjb: read sector 0, and to store it at address 1. The next instruction at address 1 would then be the boot sector program :-)
2020-02-11T15:18:02Z ecraven: I've done this on a PiDP-11, toggling in data and code ;)
2020-02-11T15:20:22Z pjb: Yes, minicomputer did the same, but it was binary instructions then :-)
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2020-02-11T15:22:52Z ecraven: I love the blinkenlights ;)
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2020-02-11T15:49:19Z jcowan: I've always loved the two-instruction disk bootstrap for the PDP-8
2020-02-11T15:50:14Z jcowan: The first instruction is "read disk block".  Normally you set some registers in the disk controller to say which block and where, but at startup these registers are 0, so it says "read disk block 0 to address 0".
2020-02-11T15:50:32Z jcowan: The second instruction is "jump to self".
2020-02-11T15:51:16Z ecraven: why was that necessary? some sort of pipelining?
2020-02-11T15:51:20Z jcowan: This keeps the processor looping until the controller has written enough to memory to override this with a loop that waits for the controller to be done.
2020-02-11T15:52:01Z jcowan: interrupts are off at this stage, so a poll makes the best sense
2020-02-11T15:52:09Z jcowan: s/override/overwrite
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2020-02-11T16:03:45Z ecraven: ah, nice ;)
2020-02-11T16:04:02Z jcowan: yeah
2020-02-11T16:04:02Z ecraven: so you need to start your application code at address 1 ;)
2020-02-11T16:04:11Z pjb: Well, the bootstrap code.
2020-02-11T16:04:31Z pjb: Then the bootstrap sector will load the rest of the OS. Then the OS will load your application.
2020-02-11T16:06:13Z jcowan: Exactly
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2020-02-11T17:10:14Z oni-on-ion: this was a confusing entry in search results: https://nils.com.au/
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2020-02-11T17:58:04Z mdhughes_: It's awful nice to have Internet that isn't my phone.
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2020-02-11T20:16:40Z jcowan: It's awful nice to have a phone that doesn't do Internet.
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2020-02-11T20:23:41Z erkin: What would you call Clojure's swap! operator in Scheme?
2020-02-11T20:23:42Z pjb: jcowan: it's horribly unecological!
2020-02-11T20:23:58Z erkin: (swap! x proc) is equivalent to (set! x (proc x))
2020-02-11T20:23:59Z jcowan: pjb: In what sense?
2020-02-11T20:24:00Z pjb: jcowan: now you need to have built to the cost of a lot of CO2 and other rare materials, another device to o internet!
2020-02-11T20:24:31Z jcowan: 90% of that device is something I would need anyway, as I need at least a laptop-sized keyboard, screen, and local storage.
2020-02-11T20:24:39Z pjb: https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/13-things-the-smartphone-has-made-obsolete-2015-11
2020-02-11T20:24:52Z pjb: or https://www.geckoandfly.com/13143/50-things-smartphone-replaced-will-replace-future/
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2020-02-11T20:25:26Z pjb: Even if would have never use done or two of those things, it is still better ecologically to have one single device thant multiple ones.
2020-02-11T20:30:08Z erkin: (apply! proc x ...) maybe?
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2020-02-11T20:45:59Z Oxyd: (update! x proc) ?
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2020-02-11T20:53:19Z erkin: Oh that's a good one.
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2020-02-11T21:01:23Z erkin: Dang, I just realised syntax-case and SRFI-10 are incompatible because of the #, form.
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2020-02-11T22:16:57Z jcowan: IMO SRFI-10 is not a win
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2020-02-11T22:25:41Z erkin: I like CHICKEN's set-read-syntax! better.
2020-02-11T22:28:30Z erkin: When writing unhygienic macros, I often find myself doing (string->symbol (string-append str (symbol->string sym))). I wonder if there's an analogue of syntax-case's format-id but for symbols and str-- hey wait a minute
2020-02-11T22:28:52Z erkin: I can just do format.
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2020-02-11T22:46:59Z erkin: I must announce with a heavy heart that R6RS has no `format'.
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2020-02-11T22:54:17Z zaifir: Formatting combinators are a way forward without `format'.
2020-02-11T22:55:25Z zaifir: (scheme show), as of Tangerine Edition!
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2020-02-11T23:02:15Z jcowan: And the implementation is portable.
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2020-02-11T23:16:46Z TempeVolcano: hello
2020-02-11T23:17:10Z TempeVolcano: I'm having a little trouble understanding this recursive function.
2020-02-11T23:17:30Z wasamasa: pastebin please
2020-02-11T23:19:29Z TempeVolcano: https://paste.debian.net/1130228/
2020-02-11T23:20:28Z TempeVolcano: So when I put in a word that's longer than 2 letters.  It goes into the (downup (bl wd) function.
2020-02-11T23:20:48Z TempeVolcano: which makes it appear as the word but will the last letter missing.
2020-02-11T23:21:24Z TempeVolcano: I kinda don't get how this happens again until the work is one letter, and I especially don't get how the word begins building back up again.
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2020-02-11T23:25:25Z erkin: What's se?
2020-02-11T23:25:34Z erkin: Or bl
2020-02-11T23:26:12Z TempeVolcano: sentence and but last
2020-02-11T23:26:33Z TempeVolcano: bl = "everything but last"
2020-02-11T23:27:00Z erkin: Can you post the whole code?
2020-02-11T23:27:55Z TempeVolcano: I did here.  I'm using the "Simply Scheme" package.  I'm on Chapter 11 of "Simply Scheme".
2020-02-11T23:28:05Z TempeVolcano: I have to step away, be back soon.
2020-02-11T23:29:10Z TempeVolcano: https://paste.debian.net/1130228/
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2020-02-12T00:16:35Z pjb: The whole code means a stand alone program that we can run on random standard implementations of r5rs or r7rs.
2020-02-12T00:17:21Z pjb: ie. define se bl count, and provide an example of a call to downup (ie. with the construction of a wd).
2020-02-12T00:18:09Z erkin: They left.
2020-02-12T00:18:35Z erkin: And, to be honest, that naming convention sucks.
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2020-02-12T00:23:03Z pjb: If TempeVolcano comes back: https://termbin.com/upfr
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2020-02-12T00:54:59Z mdhughes: The Simply Scheme library is amusing, it reimplements the word/sentence handling of LOGO.
2020-02-12T01:04:19Z erkin: Huh.
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2020-02-12T11:43:23Z lockywolf_: Friends, what's wrong with the code here: http://paste.debian.net/1130274 ?
2020-02-12T11:45:18Z lockywolf_: This is a snippet from SICP 4.19, where the comment says that, roughly, "sequential evaluation of defines would give an incorrect answer".
2020-02-12T11:45:38Z lockywolf_: What's wrong with the sequential evaluation?
2020-02-12T11:45:45Z lockywolf_: (i.e. the answer would be 16)
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2020-02-12T11:51:05Z zig: lockywolf_: the order of evaluation is unspecified, I think it allows to do some optimization.
2020-02-12T11:51:53Z zig: except otherwise noted, code should not rely on sequential evaluation. begin form use sequential evaluation, but let does not.
2020-02-12T11:52:49Z zig: procedure application in particular does not rely on sequential evaluation: (+ (+ 1 2) (* 3 4)) depending on how the compiler or interpreter works 1 + 2 will be eval'ed before or after 3 * 4
2020-02-12T11:53:10Z zig: I have been bitten by that while porting code from guile to chez.
2020-02-12T11:53:51Z zig: `values` does not guarantee sequential evaluation, it does matter until you call things that have side effects.
2020-02-12T11:55:01Z zig: let* is evaluated sequentially. So the common idiom in pseudo code of a = 1; b = 2; c = 3; translatation in scheme is really (let* ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3) ...)
2020-02-12T11:56:10Z zig: that is why I am wondering why tutorial or book teach let first instead of let* or even letrec*. Coming from another language is much easier to learn letrec* and consider the others optimisations?
2020-02-12T11:56:55Z lockywolf_: zig, indeed, the report doesn't specify that the body of (let) be evaluated sequentially, only that the value of the last expression of the (let) body be returned.
2020-02-12T11:57:30Z zig: sorry, let body is wrapped in a begin, so it is sequentail, the bindings are not sequential.
2020-02-12T11:58:54Z lockywolf_: where is this "wrapping up" specified?
2020-02-12T11:58:56Z zig: there is an implicit begin in let body that is (let ((a 42) body ...) is equivalent to (let ((a 42) (begin body ...).
2020-02-12T11:59:02Z lockywolf_: I don't seem to see it.
2020-02-12T11:59:10Z zig: you are reading r
2020-02-12T11:59:13Z zig: you are reading r7rs?
2020-02-12T11:59:14Z lockywolf_: r7rs
2020-02-12T11:59:16Z lockywolf_: yeah
2020-02-12T11:59:29Z lockywolf_: (let) is on page 16
2020-02-12T11:59:56Z lockywolf_: but non-sequential (let) would make hell of a creepy language
2020-02-12T12:00:53Z lockywolf_: (let ((a 1)) (set! a 0) (display a) a) would display 1, haha.
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2020-02-12T12:07:42Z zig: Based on a quick glimpse, it is not exactly written: "let body is evaluated sequentially". but it is written that let* bindings and body are evaluated sequentially.
2020-02-12T12:09:05Z fizzie: It also says "<body> is ... as described in section 4.1.4", and that section does explicitly mention the sequential evaluation.
2020-02-12T12:09:56Z fizzie: (Of the expressions, not the definitions.)
2020-02-12T12:10:53Z zig: indeed.
2020-02-12T12:11:15Z zig: 4.1.4 describe the behavior of lambdas.
2020-02-12T12:14:15Z zig: "wrapping up" is a just my way to explain how it works in terms of itself.  If you look at Lisp In Small Pieces, or An Incremental approach to compiler, I think they does mention a transformation where at least lambda, let et al. have a single form body that is (begin old-body ...)
2020-02-12T12:15:25Z zig: otherwise look at the nanopass scheme to c toy compiler written by Andy Keep.
2020-02-12T12:16:01Z lockywolf_: Next, the expressions in the body of the lambda expression (which, if it contains definitions, represents a letrec* form — see section 4.2.2) will be evaluated sequentially in the extended environment.
2020-02-12T12:16:19Z lockywolf_: That is good enough.
2020-02-12T12:18:03Z lockywolf_: zig, yah, I know. I already wrote such a transformation myself.
2020-02-12T12:19:53Z lockywolf_: The separation between definitions and expressions looks artificial in scheme. After all, a definition is just a mutation of the binding storage.
2020-02-12T12:20:28Z lockywolf_: Or, more like "unlispy" rather than "artificial".
2020-02-12T12:21:47Z lockywolf_: Although maybe that's the "algoly" part.
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2020-02-12T16:30:58Z TempeVolcano: hello
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2020-02-12T17:40:48Z jcowan: A definition is not a mutation; it's part of a letrec*
2020-02-12T17:41:10Z jcowan: In the case of global definitions, the Big Letrec that the whole program conceptually is
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2020-02-12T18:03:50Z mdhughes: Is there typically much performance difference between let, let*, letrec*?
2020-02-12T18:04:23Z mdhughes: I haven't bothered to benchmark that before. But I habitually write let, then add a second bind depending on the first, forget to add *, compile fails.
2020-02-12T18:06:49Z oni-on-ion: could the compiler detect that, and warn/suggest ?
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2020-02-12T18:15:34Z mdhughes: Oh, it does, since there's an unbound name. As long as it's not shadowing something else, and then you have a real bad time.
2020-02-12T18:16:07Z mdhughes: So if it was efficient and I was being lazy/smart, I'd write let* first and optimize to let later if it matters.
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2020-02-12T18:20:44Z jcowan: Let is conceptually cleaner precisely because it is underspecified.
2020-02-12T18:21:21Z jcowan: Let does the bare minimum for declaring local variables.
2020-02-12T18:21:51Z jcowan: It also validates (hopefully) that all the vars are different, whereas let* doesn't and can't.
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2020-02-13T02:38:23Z mdhughes: Extremely simplistic test: https://paste.debian.net/1130395/
2020-02-13T02:39:44Z mdhughes: So let* is if anything very very slightly faster, but only significant at 100M loops, so basically never. Go ahead and use let* everywhere!
2020-02-13T02:45:28Z pjb: Nope. (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (let ((a b) (b a)) (list a b))) #| --> (2 1) |#
2020-02-13T02:45:28Z pjb:  (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (let* ((a b) (b a)) (list a b))) #| --> (2 2) |#  oops !
2020-02-13T02:46:29Z mdhughes: You're holding it wrong.
2020-02-13T02:48:14Z mdhughes: let* only works forwards thru the list, not in some magical do-what-i-mean order.
2020-02-13T02:49:31Z pjb: My point is that you should not go ahead and use let* everywhere!
2020-02-13T02:49:43Z pjb: If you want (2 1), you definitely want NOT to use LET* at all!
2020-02-13T02:50:18Z mdhughes: Anyway, just moved it to chez (no repeat macro, so took a couple edits) and nearly identical results except 30x faster.
2020-02-13T02:50:34Z pjb: faster but wrong, if you wanted (2 1).
2020-02-13T02:50:45Z pjb: Are you a C programmer by chance?
2020-02-13T02:50:58Z mdhughes: You are never going to get a correct answer of expecting an undefined value => defined value.
2020-02-13T02:51:16Z pjb: My two forms are perfectly defined.
2020-02-13T02:51:34Z mdhughes: The order of let is undefined.
2020-02-13T02:51:55Z pjb: You don't understand that let and let* have different semantics, they just don't do the same thing. Therefore you cannot exchange them without changing the meaning of your program.
2020-02-13T02:52:25Z pjb: mdhughes: it doesn't matter in which order the variables are bound in LET!  Not at all!  And there is absolutely no way to detect it.
2020-02-13T02:53:23Z mdhughes: I do understand what they do; let doesn't define order or expose previous bindings to later bindings. jcowan thinks this is more "conceptually cleaner", which is probably true.
2020-02-13T02:54:06Z mdhughes: But as a practical tool, let is annoying, because you do often define a, then a => b, then b => c, and so you need a stack of lets or let*.
2020-02-13T02:54:51Z mdhughes: And my test is showing that the "cleaner" let is not being compiled any faster, just the opposite.
2020-02-13T02:54:54Z pjb: mdhughes: again, let* is equivalent to embedded lets, but a single let is not equivalent to a single let*.
2020-02-13T02:55:10Z pjb: mdhughes: and speed doesn't matter.
2020-02-13T02:55:25Z mdhughes: (let [(a 1)]) and (let* [(a 1)]) are in fact exactly equivalent.
2020-02-13T02:55:45Z mdhughes: pjb: "speed doesn't matter". I don't even know what language you're speaking there.
2020-02-13T02:56:11Z mdhughes: I'm not doing Scheme because I want mathematical purity in my life, I've become some monk in a cloister.
2020-02-13T02:56:25Z mdhughes: I've got shit to do, performance matters, and Scheme's been a very pragmatic language for it.
2020-02-13T02:56:44Z pjb: mdhughes: You can time: (let ((a 1) (b 2))  (time (repeat 1000000 (let ((a b) (b a)) (list a b))))) vs. the semantically equivalent form: (let ((a 1) (b 2))  (time (repeat 1000000 (let* ((tempa a) (tempb b) (a tempb) (b tempa)) (list a b))))) and I bet the former form is faster!
2020-02-13T02:57:20Z mdhughes: Where does (a b) (b a) get an initial value?
2020-02-13T02:57:39Z pjb: From the outer let.
2020-02-13T02:57:56Z mdhughes: Oh, I see, you've got a redundant let a, b above it. Don't do that, that's hideous coding style.
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2020-02-13T02:58:20Z pjb: It's not redundant.  It's all perfectly meaningful.
2020-02-13T02:58:26Z mdhughes: Why would you redefine names to values that already exist? The purpose of a computer is to compute.
2020-02-13T02:59:12Z mdhughes: You have done nothing in that example, just reassigned names to be confusing.
2020-02-13T02:59:22Z pjb: mdhughes: You could do that if you have to code symetric formula, so you can just copy-and-paste them.
2020-02-13T02:59:53Z pjb: Nope. (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (list (list a b) (let ((a b) (b a)) (list a b)))) #| --> ((1 2) (2 1)) |#
2020-02-13T02:59:53Z pjb:  
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2020-02-13T03:00:16Z mdhughes: I don't code by copy-paste, either.
2020-02-13T03:00:17Z pjb: I use (list a b) twice, but the second time, a and b are swapped.
2020-02-13T03:00:50Z pjb: There are others reasons why you would want to shadow a binding.
2020-02-13T03:01:28Z mdhughes: I almost always consider shadowing an error. If you're doing the same function multiple ways, write a combinator function and pass the values in.
2020-02-13T03:01:51Z pjb: of course, let is equivalent to lambda, so this is exactly what I've done!
2020-02-13T03:02:17Z mdhughes: Right, but you've done it in a way that makes it maximally hard to read and edit.
2020-02-13T03:02:55Z mdhughes: Anyway, I'm done. I got the answer I needed, and showed my math. Enjoy.
2020-02-13T03:09:50Z mdhughes: Just for comparison, Chez: https://paste.debian.net/1130396/
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2020-02-13T10:14:24Z lockywolf__: Can someone enlighten me about the analysis benefits? For example, in SICP section 4.1.7, there is the following phrase: "For a quoted expression, we can gain a little efficiency by extracting the text of the quotation only once, in the analysis phase, rather than in the execution phase.". This is hard to understand. In the non-analyzing interpreter "eval" just returns the text of the quotation. In the analyzing one, it
2020-02-13T10:14:25Z lockywolf__: creates a lambda encapsulating the text of the quotation, returns it, and runs the lambda. This seems like at least two more redundant operations. Where does the profit come from?
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2020-02-13T11:43:17Z lockywolf__: I mean, this would make sense if (analyze) cached its work.
2020-02-13T11:44:32Z lockywolf__: Then it would work like (if (analyzed? exp) (get 'analyze exp) (analyze exp))
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2020-02-13T12:12:28Z ggole: The lambda is created once (by analyze), and potentially called many times during evaluation
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2020-02-13T12:21:47Z lockywolf_: Potentially? In which case?
2020-02-13T12:22:22Z lockywolf_: I mean, to call the lambda more than once, we would need to store it somewhere.
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2020-02-13T12:23:24Z ggole: Yes, it's closed over by the other lambdas created by analyse
2020-02-13T12:23:50Z ggole: (Or I guess if the quote form is the outermost, simply returned by analyse.)
2020-02-13T12:27:24Z lockywolf_: But we need to analyze everything any way. I don't see where we are saving. Like, we should be saving on the cases where we analyze the same expression once and execute many times. But I cannot imagine such an expression.
2020-02-13T12:28:17Z lockywolf_: For example (exp1 exp2 exp3) would require to analyze all exp*  even if they look the same.
2020-02-13T12:28:55Z ggole: Loops and recursion?
2020-02-13T12:30:58Z ggole: Even without loops you could save the result of analyse and run it multiple times, analogous to producing a binary and running it multiple times
2020-02-13T12:32:56Z lockywolf_: Yes, but I would need to use something like memoization. How would I find that I already analyzed an expression.
2020-02-13T12:33:38Z ggole: You don't. You just call the value returned by analyse.
2020-02-13T12:33:55Z lockywolf_: once?
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2020-02-13T12:34:02Z lockywolf_: where's the saving then?
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2020-02-13T12:34:55Z ggole: In that the analysis is only done once.
2020-02-13T12:35:11Z lockywolf_: only once per evaluation?
2020-02-13T12:35:28Z lockywolf_: but without analysis, it is still done once per evaluation
2020-02-13T12:35:50Z ggole: Wrong, because loops and recursion will result in the same form being analysed many times.
2020-02-13T12:37:18Z ggole: Without that repetition analysis would be no faster (and probably considerably slower)
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2020-02-13T12:37:50Z lockywolf_: loops would need to somehow know that this expression was already analyzed, right?
2020-02-13T12:38:34Z lockywolf_: As "this expression has already been analyzed and here's the result of the analysis"
2020-02-13T12:38:39Z ggole: No.
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2020-02-13T12:42:17Z ggole: If you look at the definitions analyse never calls itself inside the lambdas that it is producing: instead it does something along the lines of (let ((var (analyse ...))) (lambda (env) ...)), where the recursive call to analyse is performed once no matter how many times the lambda is called.
2020-02-13T12:46:06Z lockywolf_: that's true
2020-02-13T12:46:29Z lockywolf_: but the lambda is still called only once
2020-02-13T12:47:16Z lockywolf_: for example, if we work with (if x b c), the old system wouldn't even analyze c if x is #f.
2020-02-13T12:47:38Z lockywolf_: whereas an analyzing system would walk the source code tree any way
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2020-02-13T12:50:06Z lockywolf_: the new system walks the tree, puts the resulting lambdas into the variables, but the resulting lambda is still called just once by (eval), and is then thrown away
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2020-02-13T12:50:36Z ggole: How many times do I need to say "loops and recursion" -_-
2020-02-13T12:51:33Z LeoNerd: You could say it.. *dark shades* on repeat
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2020-02-13T13:08:10Z lockywolf__: Ow, wait. But this requires that procedure bodies don't change between the calls.
2020-02-13T13:10:08Z lockywolf__: For example: (define a (lambda () (display "in\n") (insert-after-first-display! a '(display "added\n")) (a))
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2020-02-13T13:13:13Z ggole: Yep
2020-02-13T13:14:07Z lockywolf__: huh, not an obvious assumption, especially when having a repl
2020-02-13T13:15:29Z ggole: A reasonable one though
2020-02-13T13:15:43Z lockywolf__: okay, thank you
2020-02-13T13:16:47Z lockywolf__: Well, a very reasonable one, just not very obvious in the light of how scheme boasts being able to construct procedures from data.
2020-02-13T13:17:21Z lockywolf__: And having a repl is almost taken for granted nowadays.
2020-02-13T13:19:36Z lockywolf__: But anyway, thank you so much for helping me.
2020-02-13T13:24:39Z ggole: Constructing procedures from data and having a repl don't really conflict with compilation
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2020-02-13T13:55:51Z oni-on-ion: whoa whoa, gambit faster than chez now ?
2020-02-13T14:07:26Z jcowan: Depends on the benchmark, as always.
2020-02-13T14:08:08Z oni-on-ion: yes, as shown by the numbers.
2020-02-13T14:08:27Z oni-on-ion: chez was first a few months ago. it seems chicken fell somewhat. hmmmmm
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2020-02-13T16:17:02Z mdhughes: Compiled, sometimes gambit/gerbil is considerably faster. But it takes a lot longer to compile than Chez's JIT.
2020-02-13T16:18:27Z mdhughes: Only reason I'm still using Chicken is FFI from Gambit's hard to understand sometimes; I have a memory leak I can't figure out.
2020-02-13T16:20:02Z mdhughes: Even if I did understand it, I'd have to wrap a couple dozen complex functions to get back where I am now, which doesn't seem super fun.
2020-02-13T16:30:59Z jcowan: If you are trying to always use the fastest implementation, you are doomed to keep changing implementations, which has a lot of friction.
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2020-02-13T16:40:38Z mdhughes: Get really good at writing a compatibility library…
2020-02-13T16:41:27Z mdhughes: In my case Chicken's fast enough that I don't have to switch, but I can think of things I'd like to do where the extra speed would be really useful.
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2020-02-13T16:53:26Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, hmm interesting. sorry to hear about your ffi situation - i havent looked into any of them aside from having used guile's. i wonder if gambit/gerbil compile times affect the REPL as well ? i dont see myself often compiling whole thing from scratch
2020-02-13T16:53:33Z oni-on-ion: (whole thing = my project)
2020-02-13T16:55:12Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, and yep! i am just focused now on realtime graphics and sound synthesis. later on i can experiment with different implementations, but i've got to start with something first. =)
2020-02-13T16:58:27Z jcowan: FFIs are one of the least standardized things.  It's not even clear that it's practical to have a facade over the different systems that are out there.
2020-02-13T16:59:47Z jcowan: In particular, there are two basic schools:  "write weird-looking Scheme to invoke C procedures" and "write weird-looking C that Scheme knows how to invoke"
2020-02-13T17:00:08Z jcowan: It's one of the handful of things that are out of scope for R7RS-large.
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2020-02-13T17:19:23Z edgar-rft: Scheme clearly needs RnRS-huge!
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2020-02-13T17:22:34Z zig: rnrs-huge for the win!
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2020-02-13T17:23:53Z zig: speaking of huge, wikimedia foundation product owner of wikidata told me they will consider my proposal to rewrite wikidata in Scheme!
2020-02-13T17:24:53Z zig: at least they will try to give feedback.
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2020-02-13T17:30:58Z tdammers: question here: what is the correct way to implement comparison operators in a scheme interpreter?
2020-02-13T17:31:29Z tdammers: R7RS says that converting all operands to inexact types if any of them is inexact is incorrect, and I understand why
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2020-02-13T17:31:35Z tdammers: what I don't understand is what to do instead
2020-02-13T17:39:03Z X-Scale: zig: that great news :)
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2020-02-13T17:44:45Z belmarca: zig: are you a one-man team?
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2020-02-13T17:51:18Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, ah true. i suppose ffi cant quite be an sfri
2020-02-13T17:51:20Z oni-on-ion: srfi
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2020-02-13T17:52:18Z zig: belmarca: not really... I stand on the shoulders of giants ;-)
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2020-02-13T17:52:40Z zig: memonic: surf-i
2020-02-13T17:55:01Z oni-on-ion: zig, just read my exact mind when i typed that! surfy =) =)
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2020-02-13T17:59:09Z jcowan: oni-on-ion: No, SRFIs can be non-portable.  The hard part here is designing one that actually has wide coverage
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2020-02-13T17:59:35Z jcowan: mappable to all the FFIs already out there.
2020-02-13T18:00:55Z oni-on-ion: hm that's what i figured.
2020-02-13T18:01:08Z oni-on-ion: oh well! =)
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2020-02-13T18:23:07Z jcowan: oni-on-ion: If you feel like it, don't let me stop you from researching the question!
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2020-02-13T19:03:36Z zig: some feedback eventually landed on the wiki: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:Project/Future-proof_WDQS#Some_more_feedback
2020-02-13T19:12:40Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, hehe. the only thing that comes to mind is something like cffi for CL =)
2020-02-13T19:13:06Z oni-on-ion: i feel subconsciously that it is ok for some code to be implementation-dependant once it relies on C code anyhow.
2020-02-13T19:13:23Z oni-on-ion: even tho C is a bit more portable than scheme
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2020-02-13T19:16:11Z jcowan: Well, if you want to encapsulate some C library to make it callable nicely from Scheme, you don't want to have to redo the glue for every Scheme, especially since some systems need Scheme glue, some need C glue, and some may need both.
2020-02-13T19:16:29Z jcowan: Particularly if the library has, like 300 entry points.
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2020-02-13T19:17:30Z oni-on-ion: oh thats true. my approach would be to make generic (regular typed arguments, try to avoid pointers/malloc) API and do it each way for each scheme needed
2020-02-13T19:17:32Z jcowan: SWIG is supposed to help solve this problem.  Chicken had support once, but it rotted and was removed.
2020-02-13T19:18:18Z jcowan: Okay, so there are two things: find out what local APIs exist (a research problem) and design the facade API (a design problem).  Neither is hard but both are time consuming.
2020-02-13T19:18:34Z jcowan: (Oh yes.  And not get bitten by the Curse of Lisp while you are doing it.)
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2020-02-13T19:22:06Z jcowan: Guile support rotted as of Guile 2.0.x, and Racket support is so old they still call it MzScheme, so I would guess it has rotted too.
2020-02-13T19:24:43Z jcowan: And writing new languages for SWIG requires writing a bunch of C++ and the interface between the SWIG compier and your language module tends to rot too.
2020-02-13T19:25:27Z jcowan: But there are other approaches, like using Chibi's stub support.  It's just a matter of retargeting it to produce generic FFI instead of Chibi-specific FFI.
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2020-02-13T22:26:45Z mdhughes: oni-on-ion: gambit's REPL is OK, faster than Chicken's csi, but not Chez-fast.
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2020-02-13T22:30:44Z mdhughes: C FFI also just doesn't exist in some impls, like Kawa. And once you get into who owns objects and should GC them, it's too specific to the impl.
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2020-02-13T22:42:54Z mdhughes: What I would like is a guideline of "this is what FFI might look like" so every impl designer can at least base on that, instead of running wild and making their own completely alien thing.
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2020-02-14T02:18:25Z jcowan: mdhughes: I'd like that too, but it shouldn't be too far different from what we already have.  Obvs the JVM and CLR implementations will need their own FFIs, as well as those hosted in Python or Go or Haskell or whatever.
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2020-02-14T02:19:49Z mdhughes: Currently the Chicken, Chez, and Gambit FFIs look nothing alike. And Gerbil wraps Gambit's in another macro layer.
2020-02-14T02:20:15Z erkin: I wonder if Racket's C API will change with the new Chez base.
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2020-02-14T02:38:36Z badkins: erkin: I believe so, yes:  https://docs.racket-lang.org/inside/index.html
2020-02-14T02:39:43Z badkins: ... and https://blog.racket-lang.org/2019/01/racket-on-chez-status.html
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2020-02-14T02:55:22Z erkin: Oh, Racket CS won't have any C FFI then?
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2020-02-14T03:05:07Z jcowan: I believe it will expose the Chez FFI.
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2020-02-14T04:25:58Z erkin: That makes more sense.
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2020-02-14T09:44:34Z zig: o/
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2020-02-14T13:27:08Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, ah yeah. and agreed. especially since there are 2 types of ffi
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2020-02-14T20:33:17Z lost-frog: Hi, I'm trying to use geiser-mode in emacs and none of the `eval` (eg `eval-buffer`,`eval-region`) commands seem to work, though I have an active REPL which I can switch to using `switch-to-geiser`
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2020-02-14T20:33:35Z lost-frog: Has anyone run into this before?
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2020-02-14T21:07:51Z zig: there is a #geiser channel I think, also mention the scheme implementation you are using?
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2020-02-14T21:19:36Z lost-frog: yup, sorry. in any case i fixed it
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2020-02-14T22:10:37Z aeth: wasamasa: that's annoying, if you changed names in the other order, you'd have balanced the {}s as {{{ {{{ }}} }}}
2020-02-14T22:10:57Z aeth: but instead what we have is the exact opposite of balance!
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2020-02-15T00:44:03Z oni-on-ion: reality implodes !
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2020-02-15T10:12:36Z zig: simulation glitches!
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2020-02-15T13:14:29Z lockywolf: Do all scheme's mutating procedures have no return value?
2020-02-15T13:15:14Z pjb: Do you mean the standard ones, or the ones in srfi librarie, or the ones you write?
2020-02-15T13:15:27Z lockywolf: I can write anything, obviously :)
2020-02-15T13:15:56Z lockywolf: I mean a "community consensus". Shall mutative procedures return anything?
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2020-02-15T13:16:45Z lockywolf: This question came to me while reading the "lazy" chapter of SICP.
2020-02-15T13:16:51Z pjb: Well, this seems to be the style wanted by the authors of the standard.  This is bad IMO.  It makes it distinguish "statements" from "expressions", which is bad IMO.
2020-02-15T13:17:27Z pjb: I like the CL style were all functions returns values (possibly 0 values too), and where missing values are taken to be NIL.
2020-02-15T13:19:29Z lockywolf: The point is that if I write (set! x 1), it may never be actually forced, because noone cares about its return value.
2020-02-15T13:19:54Z pjb: And results of operators such as setf are specified (to be the last assigned value, and evaluation is specified to be left-to-right), so you can write things like (setf a (setf b 42))  or (let ((a 0) (b 0) c) (setf c (+ (setf a 33) (incf b))) (list a b c)) #| --> (33 1 34) |#
2020-02-15T13:20:35Z pjb: lockywolf: good point. But usually, you would use x.  But if you don't indeed, it could make it easier to the compiler to determines it's dead code.e
2020-02-15T13:20:43Z lockywolf: However, if I write (if (set! x 1) (continuation) (error "setter broken")), it is guaranteed to be forced.
2020-02-15T13:21:13Z lockywolf: I would, and it would be a huge source of confusion!
2020-02-15T13:21:36Z lockywolf: Because accessing x still doesn't force (set!)!
2020-02-15T13:21:58Z lockywolf: Again, I am speaking about the lazy regime.
2020-02-15T13:22:50Z lockywolf: To me it seems quite natural for mutators return #t if successfully mutated, and #f if not.
2020-02-15T13:25:15Z lockywolf: Then I would produce guaranteed mutators by writing (and (set! x 1) (set! x2 0), etc.
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2020-02-15T13:29:53Z pjb: Happily, scheme is a metalinguistic language…
2020-02-15T13:31:51Z lockywolf: ;)
2020-02-15T13:31:58Z lockywolf: it's not as crazy as it seems
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2020-02-15T14:17:50Z zig: sort! from srif-1 will return a sorted list possibly mutating the list passed as argument (basically, the list passed as argument is not useable),
2020-02-15T14:17:52Z zig: .
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2020-02-15T15:36:34Z jcowan: lockywolf: The mutation procedures of Scheme by convention return a single value, but that value is not useful because you can't rely on what it is.
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2020-02-15T15:40:31Z zig: jcowan: There might be a typo in what you wrote?
2020-02-15T15:40:56Z jcowan is puzzled: sure, but what?
2020-02-15T15:41:29Z zig: is not useful? how the returned value can not be useful? in the case of sort! it is useful, that is the argument that is not useful after the sort! call?
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2020-02-15T15:52:10Z sreeram: Hi, what is the best way to install mit-scheme in OpenBSD ?
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2020-02-15T16:18:55Z tdammers: zig: it is not useful because the standard doesn't specify what it should be, and thus implementations are free to do whatever they want - return a reference to the first argument, return the new value, return the old value, return a boolean indicating success, return nil, return end-of-file, return a promise which when forced will error, etc.
2020-02-15T16:19:58Z tdammers: zig: so the return value is "useless" in the sense that using it is not going to be helpful
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2020-02-15T16:29:33Z mdhughes: It would be nice if set! returned the value assigned, but instead it returns (void) which is true, but not useful.
2020-02-15T16:32:16Z mdhughes: At least in Chez and Chicken: (eq? (void) (set! x 1))
2020-02-15T16:33:46Z Riastradh: (let ((x 1)) (set! x 2))
2020-02-15T16:33:46Z Riastradh: ;Value: 1
2020-02-15T16:34:31Z tdammers: I guess several of these options would be nice in some situations
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2020-02-15T16:52:56Z zig: ah! So the value returned by `sort!` is useless, I got it backward.  It makes sense now. Thanks.
2020-02-15T16:54:12Z Riastradh: ??
2020-02-15T16:54:42Z zig: ?
2020-02-15T16:56:06Z Riastradh: There's no sort! in SRFI 1.  But following SRFI 1's conventions, a procedure named so would destroy its input and return a useful value.
2020-02-15T16:57:00Z zig: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html
2020-02-15T16:57:04Z zig: indeed.
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2020-02-15T16:58:26Z mdhughes: No, just the opposite. You use the value from sort!, don't rely on your old reference being fully mutated.
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2020-02-15T23:15:39Z jcowan: Yes, ! can be used either on mutators or on linear-update procedures, which may or may not mutate, but in any case the argument(s) passed are dead.
2020-02-15T23:20:34Z Riastradh: So ! means _either_ (a) to observe the result it is _mandatory_ to reuse the input, or (b) the result is in the output and it is _forbidden_ to reuse the input.
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2020-02-15T23:29:10Z jcowan: Unfortunately yes.  But in either case the former contents of the input are no longer guaranteed to be available.
2020-02-15T23:30:02Z jcowan: I agree that it would be more rational to return the input in (a).  But history beats ahistorical rationality every time.
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2020-02-16T05:38:20Z libfud: I'm looking for some feedback on a script I've been writing
2020-02-16T05:39:07Z libfud: I'm mostly used to using scheme in a REPL (geiser/guile), but I want this to be useful as a script to run for other people too
2020-02-16T05:39:13Z libfud: https://gist.github.com/djallen89/706f763cf27c47461c73bfd9e0fc8c5c
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2020-02-16T06:04:54Z zig: libfud: I believe there should be better way to implement `cross` line 30, instead of using list-ref, rely on named-let? I am not familiar with those calculations, I can not tell at the moment how it would pan out
2020-02-16T06:05:38Z zig: otherwise it looks good to me
2020-02-16T06:07:55Z libfud: zig: the calculations are for keplerian orbital elements
2020-02-16T06:08:21Z libfud: they all work, provided you don't give a state which produces singularities
2020-02-16T06:08:33Z libfud: e.g. an equatorial circular orbit
2020-02-16T06:08:38Z pjb: libfud: all the indexing is know at compilation time, so you could write a macro to generate an efficient function in function of the dimension.
2020-02-16T06:08:45Z libfud: I'm not familiar with named-let yet
2020-02-16T06:09:19Z libfud: pjb: yeah? I need to actually start using macros
2020-02-16T06:10:05Z libfud: do you get a sense for when a macro will be good to use?
2020-02-16T06:10:16Z libfud: er, when to implement a macro
2020-02-16T06:10:51Z pjb: libfud: alternatively, you can perform symbol evaluation to build the function body: https://termbin.com/k1f6
2020-02-16T06:11:19Z pjb: Of course, since you use list-ref, you would be advised to use temp variables to avoid walking the lists several times.
2020-02-16T06:12:44Z libfud: hmm
2020-02-16T06:15:40Z libfud: oh yeah
2020-02-16T06:15:48Z libfud: the thing I actually had been the most iffy on
2020-02-16T06:15:58Z zig: libfud: name let looks like that: (let loop ((index 0)) (display index) (loop (+ index 1))))
2020-02-16T06:16:02Z libfud: was pretty-print-elements around line 135
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2020-02-16T06:17:02Z zig: what is the problem with pretty-print-elements?
2020-02-16T06:17:31Z libfud: the nested string appending
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2020-02-16T06:18:07Z zig: libfud: named-let, is a let with a name (in the above it LOOP) in front of the bindings, that name is bound to a lambda that can be used to do recursion or iteration...
2020-02-16T06:18:17Z libfud: it had been worse before when I was adding more things to the alist from orbital-elements, including vectors (as lists)
2020-02-16T06:18:32Z libfud: nice
2020-02-16T06:19:00Z pjb: libfud: or: https://termbin.com/nq0i
2020-02-16T06:19:45Z libfud: I'm going to try out named let in my repl real fast
2020-02-16T06:19:52Z pnp: named-led is basically a letrec :/
2020-02-16T06:19:59Z pnp: *let
2020-02-16T06:20:32Z zig: libfud: there is a `pk` call `peek` in guile that allows to print stuff (it also return the last argument, I use extensivly for debugging)
2020-02-16T06:20:50Z zig: libfud: if the alist is big, you might as well switch to a hashtable.
2020-02-16T06:20:56Z libfud: oh?
2020-02-16T06:21:01Z libfud needs to learn more scheme
2020-02-16T06:21:24Z libfud: I've essentially been using it as a nice calculator for years
2020-02-16T06:21:26Z zig: libfud: it is guile specific, the name of the procedure is `pk`, peek is the way you pronounce it.
2020-02-16T06:21:41Z libfud: I was referring to the hash tables actually
2020-02-16T06:21:59Z libfud: I've gotten so used to just throwing everything into a list
2020-02-16T06:22:09Z zig: libfud: so say we all :)
2020-02-16T06:22:38Z libfud: map, apply, filter and fold are all so damn convenient
2020-02-16T06:22:54Z zig: the small friction with hash-table, is that to print the elements, you need to convert to an alist, so something like (pk (hash-table->alist ht))
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2020-02-16T06:23:08Z zig: similar procedures exists for hash-table etc...
2020-02-16T06:23:11Z libfud: ah, they're already packaged in an alist
2020-02-16T06:23:39Z zig: yeah list and alist are convenient.
2020-02-16T06:23:41Z libfud: so wouldn't I just pass that alist into the hashmap as the return of the function?
2020-02-16T06:24:01Z zig: I do not understand?
2020-02-16T06:24:39Z zig: hashmap is something else, guile stdlib does not have them, but it has hash-table.
2020-02-16T06:25:27Z libfud: looks like I have some reading to do
2020-02-16T06:26:04Z zig: hashmap are defined in https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-146/srfi-146.html but you prolly do no need it in your case.
2020-02-16T06:27:26Z libfud: so while I'm here
2020-02-16T06:27:44Z libfud: what are the differences and use cases of guile, chez and uh
2020-02-16T06:27:54Z libfud: I know there're a couple more "major" scheme implementations
2020-02-16T06:29:06Z pnp: pjb: i don't like that iteration construct (for-each) since is not really portable i think among different implementations... furthermore for the same reason that call-with-output-string could be simply implemented providing to the called function a callback passed by the caller
2020-02-16T06:29:46Z zig: pnp: indeed, named-let is like letrec.
2020-02-16T06:30:55Z zig: libfud: to get started I believe guile is good. Chez works in a similar way to guile but has less libraries, Chez is better quality tho.
2020-02-16T06:31:34Z zig: libfud: fwiw, I am working on r7rs scheme on top of Chez, which should bridge the gap in terms of available libraries for Chez.
2020-02-16T06:32:22Z libfud: does chez have srfi-19 (dates)?
2020-02-16T06:33:27Z zig: libfud: see https://github.com/arcfide/chez-srfi/tree/master/%253a19
2020-02-16T06:33:51Z libfud: nice
2020-02-16T06:34:05Z zig: libfud: also look into https://akkuscm.org/ if you want to get into chez.
2020-02-16T06:34:06Z libfud: what makes chez higher quality? Speed? Portability?
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2020-02-16T06:36:13Z zig: I do no know about portability first-hand, but I see regular pull-requests and in general commits that improve ms windows support.  Speed does necessarly mean better quality, but yes it is faster, especially the foreign function interface is faster.
2020-02-16T06:36:58Z libfud: ah
2020-02-16T06:38:24Z zig: libfud: the quality metric I have is that Chez is mostly written in terms of Chez, where guile is still has a lot of C. Also, Chez is based on nanopass compiler framework which I find easy to the mind.
2020-02-16T06:38:27Z zig: It has a step-debugger, generally it reports the correct line in stack traces.
2020-02-16T06:38:57Z libfud: ah
2020-02-16T06:39:23Z zig: it is not a big step to move from guile to chez, compared to say move from guile to chicken or gambit.
2020-02-16T06:39:39Z libfud: ah, those were the names I was trying to think of
2020-02-16T06:39:50Z libfud: chicken is the tool to use when you want to compile to C
2020-02-16T06:39:56Z libfud: aI forget gambit's niche
2020-02-16T06:40:17Z zig: gambit is similar in principle to chicken, except it does a lot more :)
2020-02-16T06:41:21Z zig: I do not know chicken that well. I read the good thing about chicken is the egg packages.
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2020-02-16T06:47:15Z libfud: is the packaging situation better than python's?
2020-02-16T06:47:44Z libfud: I have to use python a lot at work
2020-02-16T06:47:48Z libfud: really can't say I'm a fan
2020-02-16T06:47:53Z zig: why is that?
2020-02-16T06:48:22Z libfud: it's repl feels a lot weaker than any lisp
2020-02-16T06:48:38Z libfud: I probably don't have good emacs support for it set up yet
2020-02-16T06:49:15Z libfud: lots of little gotchas that make it feel like a weak compromise between strongly typed languages and, well, lisp
2020-02-16T06:49:54Z libfud: I guess it's hypocritical, but lisp's dynamic typing doesn't bother me
2020-02-16T06:50:02Z zig: I do not use the repl a lot whether it is Python or Scheme. Occasionally, I test few lines of codes, for instance.
2020-02-16T06:50:15Z zig: oh you rely on mypy gradual static typing?
2020-02-16T06:50:22Z libfud: no
2020-02-16T06:50:47Z libfud: we just use python3 (mostly)
2020-02-16T06:50:58Z zig: what do you mean with 'strongly typed' then?
2020-02-16T06:50:59Z libfud: some of our tooling is in python2
2020-02-16T06:51:09Z libfud: I'm actually writing this script to generate some information for one of those tools, so I can generate test data
2020-02-16T06:51:42Z libfud: like Rust's typing
2020-02-16T06:51:46Z libfud: or C++
2020-02-16T06:52:46Z libfud: actually now that I think about it, is C++'s typing weak and static, or is it strong and static?
2020-02-16T06:53:06Z libfud: ignoring for a moment the type promotion of differently sized ints and floats
2020-02-16T06:53:34Z zig: AFAIK there is two side to side to Python packaging mess: a) setup.py is a python module, it must executed to be able to read the content, which makes it unsafe for many things, unlike chicken's egg, python community is working on it for more than a decade, but no new standard has emerged b) pypi has too much choice, and somewhat kills choice, what datetime library should I pick?!
2020-02-16T06:54:13Z libfud: lmao we have two datetime libs
2020-02-16T06:54:26Z libfud: I forget if 'datetime' is builtin or an external one
2020-02-16T06:54:34Z zig: datetime is builtin.
2020-02-16T06:54:44Z libfud: dateutils is external though
2020-02-16T06:55:28Z libfud: I'm also not a fan of exception handling, but I think that stems more from the project's use of it as part of control flow instead of handling exceptional circumstances
2020-02-16T06:56:30Z libfud: I also dislike that the declaration of variable is done with the same syntax as assigning it a value
2020-02-16T06:56:51Z libfud: I've been bit by typo errors because of that a lot
2020-02-16T06:57:01Z zig: that leads to another topic, that python language is becoming gigantic.
2020-02-16T06:57:07Z libfud: becoming?
2020-02-16T06:57:11Z zig: yeah
2020-02-16T06:57:18Z libfud: I feel like it's already gigantic
2020-02-16T06:57:35Z zig: compared to python 2.7 or java 8, maybe 9 I lost count.
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2020-02-16T06:58:26Z zig: java is bigger than python 3.8 but still a lot of "useless" things like string interpolation has at least three ways: msg.format, msg % (a, b, c) and another one I do not recall.
2020-02-16T06:59:16Z zig: the other is f"hello {name}" which is very useless, imo again.
2020-02-16T07:00:33Z zig: my point, is python 3.8, is less useful as fundamental programming language teaching material. That said, it still easier than java. Given it is massive package index, it hit a sweet spot.
2020-02-16T07:00:41Z libfud: oh christ
2020-02-16T07:00:54Z libfud: supposedly f-strings are a lot faster than format method
2020-02-16T07:01:12Z libfud: f"{foo}" vs "{}".format(foo)
2020-02-16T07:01:14Z zig: but python is not meant to be fast. That is ... skyzophrnic!
2020-02-16T07:01:22Z libfud: so uh
2020-02-16T07:01:29Z libfud: why is python so damn slow anyway?
2020-02-16T07:01:45Z zig: it is interpreted with just-in-time compilation.
2020-02-16T07:01:54Z zig: without*
2020-02-16T07:02:05Z libfud: but sbcl is really, really fast
2020-02-16T07:02:12Z libfud: oh, without
2020-02-16T07:02:57Z zig: sbcl is a Ahead-Of-Time compiler, like gcc or clang, except the language it support is dynamically typed.
2020-02-16T07:03:12Z libfud: I took a fluid dynamics numerical methods class in college
2020-02-16T07:03:49Z libfud: I wrote all my programs in rust and was trying to get my friends to use C or anything faster than python
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2020-02-16T07:04:28Z libfud: my version of the program ran in... I want to say something like 2 minutes, and my one friend's in python ran overnight
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2020-02-16T07:04:46Z zig: hey!
2020-02-16T07:04:48Z libfud: ah
2020-02-16T07:05:03Z zig: my program is 2 to 3 times faster than java equivalent.
2020-02-16T07:05:11Z libfud: in which lang?
2020-02-16T07:05:14Z zig: chez
2020-02-16T07:05:34Z zig: also it is at least as fast as C equivalent.
2020-02-16T07:05:47Z libfud: so does lisp facilitate compilation because the code is already an AST?
2020-02-16T07:05:48Z zig: there is no rust equivalent yet.
2020-02-16T07:06:15Z libfud: I *also* need to learn how to write a compiler
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2020-02-16T07:06:35Z zig: yes and no. Compiler work is... a long process. Chez in particular, has taken the time to think and implement the required optimization to be fast.
2020-02-16T07:07:13Z zig: libfud: another python culprit, is 'nonlocal' vs. 'global' vs. nothing at all.
2020-02-16T07:07:22Z libfud: I'm assuming the complication arises from the optimization of the IR?
2020-02-16T07:08:23Z zig: gambit is also fast.
2020-02-16T07:08:31Z zig: Well, I guess I could read Chez compiler and answer your question but not at the moment.
2020-02-16T07:09:06Z zig: AFAIK IR is almost always Continuation-Passing-Style (CPS), but some compiler pass might rely on Control Flow Graph or stuff like that.
2020-02-16T07:10:17Z zig: Chez generates native assembly, unlike say CPython (interpreter) or PyPy (JIT). Gambit can generate C, native or JavaScript or even Ruby or Python.
2020-02-16T07:10:44Z zig: also, at least in Chez, you have access to the compiler, that is one can compile on the fly.
2020-02-16T07:10:53Z zig: and implement some sort of JIT.
2020-02-16T07:11:54Z libfud: hm
2020-02-16T07:12:03Z libfud: well, at least for the tool we're using
2020-02-16T07:12:24Z libfud: we're only doing the user-interface portion in python
2020-02-16T07:12:38Z libfud: C++ for heavy stuff
2020-02-16T07:13:01Z libfud: we were using SWIG to generate wrappers but I managed to convert that to boost-python
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2020-02-16T07:13:07Z libfud: SWIG is horrible
2020-02-16T07:13:35Z libfud: boost-python may or may not be warty, but I can't tell after the hell that was SWIG
2020-02-16T07:15:04Z zig: I am not really familiar with SWIG or C++, I know both are... warty.
2020-02-16T07:16:32Z libfud: I don't enjoy writing in C++ but I can ignore its ugliness for long enough to complete a task
2020-02-16T07:17:16Z libfud: but if you want to talk about a gigantic language, I doubt there's one bigger than C++
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2020-02-16T07:22:47Z zig: that is the rumor.
2020-02-16T07:23:57Z libfud: lambda syntax in both C++ and python sucks
2020-02-16T07:24:48Z libfud: at least passing functions as arguments in python is easy
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2020-02-16T11:24:44Z zig: In Python, lambda are frowned upon, you'd rather use a def or list comprehension.
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2020-02-16T11:40:26Z lockywolf: Friends, does anyone have (or knows where to download) a pdf/djvu of the SICP first edition? The Second Edition is easily available, but I wonder how the book changed from the first edition to the second.
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2020-02-16T14:55:11Z zig: sorry, I do have that.
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2020-02-16T15:03:29Z zig: sorry, I do _not_ have that.
2020-02-16T15:04:40Z zig: I pushed something similar to python asyncio future at https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme/commit/e7db919e9cdc22c5f0e1977f71e675c30310871d
2020-02-16T15:05:31Z zig: if you look at the rest of the file, it includes a socket as generator and socket as accumulator https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme/blob/e7db919e9cdc22c5f0e1977f71e675c30310871d/src/arew/network/untangle.scm#L235-L255
2020-02-16T15:05:31Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/wpedwiIVBn
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2020-02-16T15:10:41Z zig: The socket as generator was tested manually, but the <future> is not.
2020-02-16T15:10:52Z zig: I needed <future> because foundationdb has a callback-based async api, and I wanted to make it look, in user code, callback-less.
2020-02-16T15:12:50Z zig: it is a (somewhat) simple approach to the thing called async / await in other languages.
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2020-02-16T15:51:44Z tdammers: in python, lambdas are frowned upon for all the wrong reasons, too
2020-02-16T15:56:55Z libfud: I'd like insight into that
2020-02-16T15:57:03Z libfud: could you explain?
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2020-02-16T15:59:16Z tdammers: python dislikes lambdas for two reasons: one, the syntax is awkward, and two, Guido doesn't understand FP
2020-02-16T15:59:41Z tdammers: the first one is of course invalid because the syntax is only awkward because they made it awkward
2020-02-16T15:59:47Z libfud: yeah
2020-02-16T15:59:59Z tdammers: it's also based on a strange, slightly condescending notion of "readability"
2020-02-16T16:00:25Z lockywolf: Is there a standard way to generate a random permutation of a list?
2020-02-16T16:00:31Z lockywolf: "more or less standard"
2020-02-16T16:00:35Z tdammers: the idea being that "explicit is better than implicit"
2020-02-16T16:01:02Z tdammers: but that's not quite the whole truth; a better principle is "as explicit as necessary, but not more"
2020-02-16T16:01:31Z tdammers: explicitly naming things is great when the things carry more meaning than what is obvious from the way they are defined and used
2020-02-16T16:02:32Z libfud: ah
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2020-02-16T16:04:12Z tdammers: for example, if you say (map (lambda (x) (+ x foobar)) items), then that lambda doesn't really have any meaning beyond "increment by foobar". we could name it, but what name could we possibly come up with that is more useful than increment-by-foobar?
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2020-02-16T16:08:40Z zig: yes, I agree. Also, list comprehension are not necessarly more explicit: map(lambda x: x + 1, range(10)) vs. [x + 1 for x in range(10)]
2020-02-16T16:10:29Z zig: you can zigzag bottom-up read list comprehension over multiple lines because why not.
2020-02-16T16:11:51Z Riastradh: Conversely, you could look at code like <https://mumble.net/~campbell/cps.scm> and say `holy nested abstractions, Batman! what do all the lambdas correspond with?' and you'd be right, it is a bit of a mess; the terms in the little combinator language might be better expressed in terms of named classes with explicit method names like in Python, or named record types or type classes in Haskell to let the
2020-02-16T16:11:57Z Riastradh: compiler confirm the way you used them makes at least some sense.
2020-02-16T16:14:36Z lockywolf: How fast is (vector-length)? O(1) or O(n)?
2020-02-16T16:14:51Z Riastradh: lockywolf: O(1)
2020-02-16T16:16:32Z zig: Riastradh: cps.scm leads to a 404
2020-02-16T16:16:36Z Riastradh: er
2020-02-16T16:16:42Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/cps.scm
2020-02-16T16:17:31Z lockywolf: Still, is there a canonical way to get a random permutation of a list? (before I write my own one)
2020-02-16T16:18:08Z Riastradh: (there was a good idea in that file, but it is obscured by complexity there; there's a much better simple exposition of the idea at <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20200209/cps.scm>)
2020-02-16T16:19:48Z zig: Riastradh: there is typo L49, s/3/4/
2020-02-16T16:20:11Z zig: in scheme/cps.scm
2020-02-16T16:20:17Z Riastradh: heh
2020-02-16T16:20:18Z libfud: I kind of wish I had the same freedom in how I name identifiers in  other languags as I do in lisp
2020-02-16T16:20:32Z libfud: foo-bar vs foo_bar
2020-02-16T16:20:40Z libfud: foo* vs foo_star
2020-02-16T16:20:50Z Riastradh: zig: Maybe I left that in there intentionally to see whether anyone was paying attention, and you're the first person in 12 years to notice!
2020-02-16T16:22:45Z Riastradh: lockywolf: No standard way; the usual way is the Fisher-Yates-Knuth shuffle, which is popularly attributed to Knuth, which Knuth wrongly attributed to Fisher and Yates, and which was actually invented by Richard Durstenfeld.
2020-02-16T16:25:32Z lockywolf: The one mentioned in srfi-27?
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2020-02-16T16:27:52Z Riastradh: lockywolf: Under `Generating Random Permutations'?  Looks plausible.
2020-02-16T16:28:53Z zig: Riastradh: That is a clue, I might be genius ;-)
2020-02-16T16:28:57Z zig: (or very bored)
2020-02-16T16:29:19Z Riastradh: The algorithm has some finicky indexing details, so make sure you get the details right; if you get the wrong, what you get might be restricted to cyclic permutations, or might be nonuniform among all permutations in some other way.  I don't really trust SRFI 27 to have gotten it right without double-checking.
2020-02-16T16:30:08Z lockywolf: I kinda have already bodged my own poor substitute.
2020-02-16T16:32:43Z lockywolf: that's why scheme has not so many good libraries...
2020-02-16T16:35:40Z zig: never read about that permutation algorithm.
2020-02-16T16:35:56Z zig: but maybe I already used it.
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2020-02-16T16:38:53Z oni-on-ion: lockywolf, is that an accurate statement
2020-02-16T16:39:07Z lockywolf: oni-on-ion, not at all
2020-02-16T16:39:25Z oni-on-ion: ok
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2020-02-16T16:49:07Z lockywolf: Is there a way to throw away the last x elements of a vector without copying everything?
2020-02-16T16:54:20Z oni-on-ion: tail.next = nil ? check SRFI-1 function 'drop-right'
2020-02-16T16:55:16Z Riastradh: lockywolf: Not in a vector, no.
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2020-02-16T16:58:02Z libfud: are there scheme -> python transpilers
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2020-02-16T17:28:41Z zig: gambit
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2020-02-16T18:29:33Z mdhughes: lockywolf: You can't change a vector's length. You could fill trailing elements with #f.
2020-02-16T18:31:15Z pjb: and keep a fill-pointer along.
2020-02-16T18:42:34Z zig: we need a grand scheme plan to conquer the world.
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2020-02-16T19:00:44Z zig: any ideas?
2020-02-16T19:03:29Z tdammers: from a general CS point of view, shortening a vector in-place is possible depending on the implementation
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2020-02-16T19:03:48Z tdammers: if it has separate length and capacity fields, then it's a simple matter of decreasing the length field
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2020-02-16T19:26:04Z mdhughes: You can always write a wrapper (and yet another API, or override vector-ref/vector-set!). More R8RS wishlist: Variable-length string & vector.
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2020-02-16T20:37:29Z jcowan: Such wrappers are easier and better with something like shadowing-import'
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2020-02-16T22:17:58Z jcowan: that would be a nice R7RS-large or R8RS feature
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2020-02-17T03:45:51Z vidjuheffex: Newb question incoming:
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2020-02-17T03:46:40Z vidjuheffex: https://github.com/ktakashi/r6rs-usocket I'm trying to decipher this library, it exploses a method called client-usocket-output-port, and that it returns the binary port with a client-socket
2020-02-17T03:47:47Z vidjuheffex: I can't figure out how thats defined, it's exported from the types file, and there is a record-type, but I see nothing where it would get "smart" enough to return binary ports (or any logic really)
2020-02-17T03:49:07Z vidjuheffex: second, in the test-server file. I can't figure out where they are getting the client socket to pass to the above  call, on the server end, how is the client being tied in
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2020-02-17T04:33:05Z gwatt: vidjuheffex: r6rs define-record-type will by default concat the record name and the field name to generate the field accessor
2020-02-17T04:37:57Z gwatt: vidjuheffex: Also, you are correct that the record is not "smart" enough to return a binary port. What's happening is the call to make-client-usocket provides the fields and the accessor just returns whatever was passed to the constructor
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2020-02-17T04:54:05Z vidjuheffex: thanks, that helps, but what's calling make-client-usocket, for example in the test?
2020-02-17T04:54:14Z vidjuheffex: gwatt
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2020-02-17T12:33:34Z lockywolf: Has anyone seen a scheme implementation in matlab?
2020-02-17T12:33:39Z lockywolf: (octave)
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2020-02-17T18:22:04Z kilimanjaro: Have any of you gotten scmutils (with x11 support etc) working on osx catalina?
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2020-02-17T20:17:51Z rotty: in case someone feels like proof-reading it -- I (kinda accidentially) provided a brief summary of Scheme vs. CL syntax in the context of improving the sublime syntax definitions for the Lisp family in a comment on a github issue: https://github.com/sublimehq/Packages/issues/1968#issuecomment-587142734
2020-02-17T20:18:41Z rotty: (and no, I'm not using Sublime Text to edit Lisp code, in case anyone is wondering -- the reason for me being interested in the issue can be found in an earlier comment)
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2020-02-17T20:21:47Z jcowan: rotty: s/comma for comments/semicolon for comments
2020-02-17T20:22:02Z rotty: jcowan: oops, thanks a lot
2020-02-17T20:22:09Z jcowan: CL does not attach meaning to [] and reserves them for user code (with a nonstandard readtable)
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2020-02-17T20:26:45Z rotty: fixed (I hope)
2020-02-17T20:28:56Z rotty: thanks for the review, jcowan!
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2020-02-18T01:13:33Z ullbeking: is there a particular dialect of scheme that "the little schemer" is suited for or am i missing the point?  i would like to use racket because it has features that i eventually want to work with; but will it be a suitable match for TLS?
2020-02-18T01:14:15Z zaifir: It's a very minimal dialect.
2020-02-18T01:15:55Z zaifir: There are a few non-standard procedures detailed in the "Guidelines To The Reader".  atom?, in particular.  Otherwise, any Scheme implementation should be able to handle it.
2020-02-18T01:17:06Z ullbeking: zaifir: yes, i saw mention on some web pages re: the need to define atom?, and a few other small things like this.  is there a canonical document that outlines all these changes that need to be made?
2020-02-18T01:17:22Z ullbeking: can selecting the dialog from drracket be sufficient perhaps?
2020-02-18T01:17:32Z ullbeking: s//dialect/
2020-02-18T01:17:53Z zaifir: ullbeking: The Little Schemer: "To work with Scheme, you will need to define atom?, sub1, and add1."
2020-02-18T01:18:01Z zaifir: That's it, AFAIK.
2020-02-18T01:18:16Z ullbeking: zaifir: thank you
2020-02-18T01:19:15Z zaifir: ullbeking: yw.  I've used CHICKEN, Guile, and s9 to follow along with that book, FWIW.
2020-02-18T01:20:01Z zaifir: ullbeking: But a big point of the book is to reason about the programs *without* running them to "see what works".  Perhaps the best Scheme to do it with is the one in your skull.
2020-02-18T01:20:54Z zaifir: ullbeking: Also, it's a fantastic book, and I'm glad to hear you're reading it.
2020-02-18T01:20:58Z ullbeking: zaifir: i intend to become more of a polyglot but to keep things simple for now, and becuase i'm intending on using some of the advanced features of racket later on, i want to focus on racket at first.  guile and mit scheme also look very good, actually, all the dialects have *something* interesting about them :-)
2020-02-18T01:21:31Z zaifir: Indeed.
2020-02-18T01:24:01Z ullbeking: zaifir: are you an Emacs user?  i use Emacs, and now i'm facing that impossible question... do i use DrRacket or Emacs?
2020-02-18T01:25:31Z zaifir: ullbeking: I use Emacs for things like Agda that basically need it, but I try to stay editor-agnostic, personally.
2020-02-18T01:25:41Z zaifir: ullbeking: Try both and see what you like.
2020-02-18T01:29:24Z ullbeking: zaifir: this link looks particular interesting: https://download.racket-lang.org/releases/7.6/doc/continue/index.html  i'm specifically looking to find patterns of design for web development using higher order languages.  so this is very exciting to see :-)
2020-02-18T01:31:51Z zaifir: ullbeking: Looks good.
2020-02-18T01:32:10Z zaifir: ullbeking: It's a CHICKEN library, but you might also be interested in awful: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/awful
2020-02-18T01:32:53Z zaifir: Seems like racket takes a very different approach to the Web stuff.
2020-02-18T01:33:27Z ullbeking: thank you zaifir, i love looking at different approaches, and i always heard great things about chicken.
2020-02-18T01:33:57Z ullbeking: my keenness for racket is to use rash and also to learn its sister language for learning dependent types
2020-02-18T01:34:18Z ullbeking: also it looks like at excellent package and well put together for beginners
2020-02-18T01:34:26Z zaifir: ullbeking: "its sister language for learning dependent types"  You mean Pie?
2020-02-18T01:34:28Z ullbeking: my main experience so far is with elisp
2020-02-18T01:34:31Z ullbeking: yes
2020-02-18T01:34:54Z ullbeking: racket itself calls pie its "sister language"
2020-02-18T01:35:01Z zaifir: Right.  Pie is really cool.  I think The Little Typer is my favorite book in the series, so far.
2020-02-18T01:35:13Z ullbeking: the little typer is where i intend to end up
2020-02-18T01:35:32Z zaifir: It shouldn't be hard.  They recommend reading TLS first, but that's it.
2020-02-18T01:35:45Z zaifir: Knowing a little type theory helps, of course.
2020-02-18T01:35:51Z ullbeking: another thing that's been on my mind... i've experimented with SLIME a long time ago and was blown away...
2020-02-18T01:36:06Z ullbeking: is SLIME compatible with scheme too?  or does one use quack instead?
2020-02-18T01:36:50Z zaifir: Geiser is pretty popular.  I haven't heard of Quack before.
2020-02-18T01:37:14Z zaifir: AFAIK no one's gotten SLIME working with Scheme.
2020-02-18T01:37:33Z zaifir: https://www.nongnu.org/geiser/
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2020-02-18T01:39:15Z ullbeking: thank you zaifir
2020-02-18T01:40:11Z zaifir: ullbeking: You're welcome.
2020-02-18T01:40:54Z ullbeking: i've got drracket fired up now... so let me get this straight and then i'll move on... i should specify the "#lang racket" option in drracket, yes?  NOT to try to find a dialect that matches TLS?
2020-02-18T01:42:37Z zaifir: That or #lang r6rs.
2020-02-18T01:45:04Z zaifir: You'll probably need to define TLS's notion of atom?, in any case.  (define (atom? x) (and (not (pair? x)) (not (null? x))))
2020-02-18T01:50:34Z ullbeking: thanks for all your help zaifir !!!  :-)  i'm already in DrRacket and enjoying myself, and I feel naturally drawn to this style of computing very much.  also...
2020-02-18T01:51:19Z ullbeking: i've always known deep down inside me, that i'm a scheme kinda person rather than a CL kinda person.  its an innate quality ;-)
2020-02-18T01:51:25Z zaifir: Heh.
2020-02-18T01:54:43Z ullbeking: zaifir: oh one more thing before i retire, heh!!  do you run a blog or website using scheme (or some other FP lang) as the main website engine, static site generator, etc?  i'm currently implementing my website as a blog in python but i'm also looking into scheme-based implementations too.
2020-02-18T01:55:38Z zaifir: ullbeking: I don't at the moment, but zig might be doing that with hyper.dev
2020-02-18T01:57:26Z zaifir: There's https://github.com/greghendershott/frog  I agree with the comment in that repo, though--the simple way to do static site generation is with make.
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2020-02-18T02:03:43Z ullbeking: zaifir: yes, i agree.  i think gnu make is a wonderful extension of regular make.  i would LOVE to learn it in more detail.
2020-02-18T02:04:08Z ullbeking: i wonder if there are resources about how to use make to generate static sites, etc
2020-02-18T02:06:42Z zaifir: ullbeking: Rich Felker's tiny blog generator makefile is a gem https://ewontfix.com/Makefile
2020-02-18T02:07:08Z ullbeking: thank you again zaifir !!  :D
2020-02-18T02:11:57Z zaifir: Re: GNU Make, the tough thing is how divergent make implementations are.  POSIX make doesn't provide very much, unfortunately.
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2020-02-18T02:15:05Z zaifir: (And, as usual, GNU provides an enormous host of unportable features.)
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2020-02-18T02:18:05Z ullbeking: zaifir: my point is that sometimes i embrace the gnu features.  in the cases of bash, make, flex, bison, gawk, and gsed (off the top of my head) i love using the gnu versions of these tools.  if i need posix-compat then i will change to a different tool.
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2020-02-18T02:21:29Z zaifir: ullbeking: ACK.
2020-02-18T02:22:20Z zaifir: GNU-heavy code is only an issue when a GNU userbase is assumed--e.g. the infamous "/bin/sh-invoking bash script" problem.
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2020-02-18T02:26:36Z ullbeking: are you referring to the oft-repeated concern that bash-invoked-as-sh doesn't properly implement POSIX behavior?
2020-02-18T02:27:15Z ullbeking: i have actually considered switching to ksh for both interactive and scripting, but i feel this will make my life only more difficult
2020-02-18T02:27:35Z zaifir: ullbeking: I'm referring to how some programmers assume that /bin/sh is bash.
2020-02-18T02:27:59Z ullbeking: zaifir: that assumption is awful and saddens me
2020-02-18T02:28:14Z zaifir: Programming in the Bourne shell makes life horribly difficult, period. :)
2020-02-18T02:28:56Z ullbeking: but the worst idiom of all must be this monstrosity:
2020-02-18T02:29:05Z ullbeking: `/usr/bin/ruby -e "$(curl -fsSL https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Homebrew/install/master/install)"`
2020-02-18T02:29:13Z ullbeking: (taken from brew.sh)
2020-02-18T02:29:48Z ullbeking: it's such a dreadful red flag that it entirely puts my off using that software.  (brew is a terrible package manager anyway.)
2020-02-18T02:30:39Z zaifir: Ouch.
2020-02-18T02:30:44Z ullbeking: 02:28 <zaifir> Programming in the Bourne shell makes life horribly difficult, period. :)
2020-02-18T02:30:44Z ullbeking: yes.  this is why i am now embracing bash, gawk, and gsed for my "little languages" which i do quick things on the CLI with, like log file processing.
2020-02-18T02:31:04Z ullbeking: but i'm planning to move to rash (racket shell)
2020-02-18T02:31:16Z ullbeking: and possibly even execline
2020-02-18T02:31:26Z zaifir: Yes.  Some language with sane semantics.
2020-02-18T02:32:37Z ullbeking: Emacs is also tremendous for processing text.  I would love to take Emacs and split it up into several sections... i should write a blog post about it...
2020-02-18T02:33:06Z ullbeking: it's core is brilliant and should be kept but it is drastically weighed down by too much "batteries included"
2020-02-18T02:33:33Z ullbeking: plus, its language and standard library is a masterpiece of text editing
2020-02-18T02:33:37Z ullbeking: plus...
2020-02-18T02:33:49Z ullbeking: its implementation of unicode is incredible
2020-02-18T02:34:34Z ullbeking: i'm less concerned about the dialect of lisp it uses than i am about the project crumbling under its own weight
2020-02-18T02:35:21Z ullbeking: i LIKE elisp
2020-02-18T02:36:00Z ullbeking: and dynamic binding and dynamic extent and dynamic scope suit its tasks well imo
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2020-02-18T02:36:29Z ullbeking: anyway i'm diverging here...
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2020-02-18T03:58:12Z oni-on-ion: where is Gambit-JS ?
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2020-02-18T05:16:33Z vidjuheffex: any clues on what to do here:
2020-02-18T05:16:39Z vidjuheffex: Exception: multiple definitions for null-pointer? in body (library (usocket srfi pffi) (export socket? make-client-socket make-server-socket socket-input-port socket-output-port ...) (import (rnrs) (pffi) (psystem libc) (psystem os) (usocket consts)) (define-condition-type &socket &error make-socket-error socket-error? (socket socket-error-socket))
2020-02-18T05:16:39Z vidjuheffex: (define-record-type base-socket (fields (...))) ...) at line 33, char 1 of /home/jules/Code/geiser/scheme/chez/libs/usockets/lib/usocket/srfi/pffi.slsType (debug) to enter the debugger.
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2020-02-18T05:17:11Z vidjuheffex: This isn't code I wrote, and I've imported all the dependecies.(all written by the same author) but there seems to be a conflict?
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2020-02-18T13:07:39Z Jmabsd: Wait what's the names of the typical macro systems in Scheme again
2020-02-18T13:07:43Z Jmabsd: define-macro = the traditional lisp thing
2020-02-18T13:08:02Z Jmabsd: then you have the R5RS pattern macros, those when named as a macro system, are called "syntax rules" aren't they
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2020-02-18T13:09:52Z Jmabsd: and then there's those two more, one of them was codified into R6RS I think, and the other one is the one used by Racket=MzScheme
2020-02-18T13:10:04Z ecraven: syntax-rules?
2020-02-18T13:10:13Z ecraven: and syntax-case
2020-02-18T13:10:36Z Jmabsd: ah right. and "syntactic closures" what's that
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2020-02-18T13:10:38Z Jmabsd: and "case-lambda"
2020-02-18T13:10:47Z Jmabsd: i recall those two names out of the air lol
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2020-02-18T13:11:09Z ecraven: case-lambda is not related to macros
2020-02-18T13:11:38Z Jmabsd: ahh, case-lambda is like, multiple dispatch yea?
2020-02-18T13:11:57Z Jmabsd: so what do you call the r5rs pattern macros again, that is "syntax-rules" yea?
2020-02-18T13:12:24Z Jmabsd: syntax-rules' two forms are |define-syntax| and |with-syntax| aren't they
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2020-02-18T13:12:52Z ecraven: no, case-lambda is a bit like polymorphic functions
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2020-02-18T13:13:17Z Jmabsd: ecraven: it's basically a |lambda| with a |match| for the arguments isn't it
2020-02-18T13:13:51Z ecraven: it's just to have one function that can take a variable number of arguments
2020-02-18T13:13:55Z ecraven: so "optional" arguments
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2020-02-18T13:17:26Z Jmabsd: ecraven: right, but there's something more to it isn't it
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2020-02-18T13:17:36Z Jmabsd: i mean, (lambda all-args code code code ) this all Schemes do
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2020-02-18T13:17:49Z Jmabsd: or (lambda (. all-args) ...) or (lambda (#!rest all-args) ...)
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2020-02-18T13:18:25Z Jmabsd: ecraven: so, what do you call R5RS pattern matching macros
2020-02-18T13:18:29Z Jmabsd: please confirm those two
2020-02-18T13:18:32Z Jmabsd: > so what do you call the r5rs pattern macros again, that is "syntax-rules" yea?
2020-02-18T13:18:37Z Jmabsd: > syntax-rules' two forms are |define-syntax| and |with-syntax| aren't they
2020-02-18T13:18:46Z Jmabsd: this is the whole r5rs pattern macros game isn't it
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2020-02-18T13:24:58Z Jmabsd: Riastradh: online? :)
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2020-02-18T13:27:46Z jcowan: Define-syntax, let-syntax, and let*-syntax are common to all modern macro systems; it's how you specify the actual macro that varies.
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2020-02-18T13:28:25Z jcowan: Almost all Schemes provide the syntax-rules system, which is pattern-based rewrite rules.
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2020-02-18T13:29:14Z jcowan: Beyond that, there are four systems of low-level macros: syntax-case (R6RS), syntactic closures, explicit renaming, and implicit renaming.
2020-02-18T13:29:47Z ecraven: defmacro!
2020-02-18T13:29:49Z jcowan: At present no Scheme supports all four
2020-02-18T13:30:03Z jcowan: I said "modern".
2020-02-18T13:30:57Z jcowan: But yes, define-macro is an alternative to all that above; it comes from Common Lisp and is (in Scheme) a very powerful footgun.
2020-02-18T13:33:35Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/SyntaxDefinitions.md has the details of which Schemes support what.
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2020-02-18T14:53:16Z lockywolf: jcowan, doesn't chibi secretly support syntax-case?
2020-02-18T14:54:45Z lockywolf: there is an implementation of implicit-renaming for chibi too, although there was some speed issue with it, like n^2 instead of n
2020-02-18T14:55:50Z lockywolf: Still, does anyone have the First Edition of SICP?
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2020-02-18T15:03:31Z Jmabsd: jcowan: thank you very much for responding
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2020-02-18T15:05:31Z Jmabsd: jcowan: do you have some URL for syntactic closures
2020-02-18T15:05:39Z Jmabsd: jcowan,*: arr what's the explicit renaming and implicit renaming thing
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2020-02-18T15:08:55Z Jmabsd: jcowan,*: i'll read the channel log several hours from now re response
2020-02-18T15:09:04Z Jmabsd: lockywolf: what's the renaming stuff
2020-02-18T15:09:23Z Jmabsd: the explicit and implicit renaming
2020-02-18T15:09:39Z Jmabsd: bbl.
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2020-02-18T15:18:09Z jcowan: lockywolf: Not secret, syntax-case is in the Chibi standard library now.
2020-02-18T15:18:21Z jcowan: Some patches had to be made to support it
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2020-02-18T15:20:08Z lockywolf: How do I make a procedure which supports 0..inf arguments?
2020-02-18T15:20:23Z ecraven: (lambda foo ...do something with foo)
2020-02-18T15:20:25Z lockywolf: I know how to make 1...inf: (lambda ( a . o) (todo))
2020-02-18T15:20:34Z jcowan: It's the same thing
2020-02-18T15:20:41Z lockywolf: But (lambda (. o) (todo)) doesn't work.
2020-02-18T15:20:47Z jcowan: (lambda foo ...) binds foo to a list of the arguments
2020-02-18T15:20:51Z ecraven: use o, no parentheses
2020-02-18T15:20:55Z jcowan: (. never makes sense in Scheme
2020-02-18T15:21:16Z jcowan: I see there is an ir implementation for Chibi, if it hasn't rotted
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2020-02-18T15:21:58Z jcowan: it never got into the stdlib, though
2020-02-18T15:22:28Z jcowan: (foof dislikes IR for that reason)
2020-02-18T15:22:50Z ecraven: he dislikes it because it didn't make it into stdlib?
2020-02-18T15:23:08Z ecraven: isn't he the one who decides what makes it in?
2020-02-18T15:23:10Z jcowan: Vice versa
2020-02-18T15:23:23Z ecraven: ah, hehe, sorry
2020-02-18T15:23:29Z jcowan: No, by "that reason" I meant O(n^2)
2020-02-18T15:23:43Z jcowan: vague reference, admittedlyi'
2020-02-18T15:23:53Z jcowan: U*@#$ MBP keyboard!
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2020-02-18T15:27:06Z lockywolf: ecraven, ah.. got it
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2020-02-18T15:28:24Z ecraven: jcowan: there I am, googling for what kind of obscure keyboard "MBP" might be... my mac-fanboy-colleague hasn't indocrinated me properly enough it seems :P
2020-02-18T15:28:58Z jcowan: It's not practical to use anything else at $EMPLOYER right now, though I also have a Windows machine for access to the internal network.
2020-02-18T15:29:57Z jcowan: I was using the Win machine with VirtualBox linux to match production, and it was just too much work fighting with it.
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2020-02-18T15:43:21Z jcowan: Well, the chibi-ir loads but the define-macro implementation doesn't work, and Chibi isn't very helpful: not enough arguments to an unnamed procedure.
2020-02-18T15:43:53Z jcowan: (You need to import make-syntactic-closure and identifier=? from the (chibi) library first.)
2020-02-18T15:44:23Z jcowan: If anyone wants to look at it, https://gist.githubusercontent.com/baguette/2632464/raw/a8cced06ceff7c22ec17fd124a0750221367e384/ir-macros.scm
2020-02-18T15:44:23Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/OdbqqLB3ER
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2020-02-18T15:45:14Z jcowan: Jmabsd: With macros, you have to walk before you can run.
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2020-02-18T15:48:03Z jcowan: Jmabsd: Start with the syntax-rules primer at http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf and other places around the web, and go as far as you can or think you need.  Don't worry about "But how do you do ...?" questions: syntax-rules is very easy in simple cases and very powerful in complex cases.
2020-02-18T15:48:38Z jcowan: When and only when syntax-rules doesn't meet your needs, worry about learning the four low-level syntax systems.
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2020-02-18T16:02:08Z phwalkr: my client dropped me. Did someone answer to Jmabsd?
2020-02-18T16:02:18Z jcowan: phwalkr: Ys
2020-02-18T16:02:21Z jcowan: yes, even
2020-02-18T16:03:03Z phwalkr: can you paste me what was answered in the last hour, please?
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2020-02-18T16:07:08Z phwalkr: jcowan: if possible, please
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2020-02-18T16:13:13Z lockywolf_: phwalkr, look at the chat topic
2020-02-18T16:13:55Z phwalkr: lockywolf_ jcowan: right. Thanks
2020-02-18T16:14:26Z lockywolf_: jcowan, that usually happens when you don't pass the environment to a continuation
2020-02-18T16:14:49Z lockywolf_: the unnamed procedure is actually the result of "analyze"
2020-02-18T16:15:01Z lockywolf_: at some node of the syntax tree
2020-02-18T16:17:06Z lockywolf_: that was line 1286 in the init-7.scm, right?
2020-02-18T16:19:22Z jcowan: No
2020-02-18T16:19:35Z jcowan: ERROR on line 137 of file /usr/local/share/chibi/init-7.scm: not enough args
2020-02-18T16:19:36Z jcowan:     #<procedure #f>
2020-02-18T16:19:36Z jcowan:     1
2020-02-18T16:20:01Z jcowan: (This is part of why I debug my SRFIs under Chicken and then make sure they work in Chibi too)
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2020-02-18T17:28:47Z ullbeking: 14:55 <lockywolf> Still, does anyone have the First Edition of SICP?
2020-02-18T17:28:47Z ullbeking: yes, i do.  i found it during my first year of undergrad studies in a second hand bookshop.  i had no idea what it was all about *really*, but it looked interesting so i bought it.  the 2nd ed. was already out by then but i never regretted that purchase :D
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2020-02-18T17:29:21Z ullbeking: i'm actually tossing and turning, considering whether or not to purchase the little schemer or to save my $$$
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2020-02-18T23:31:56Z pjb: ullbeking: I'm very fond of "The Little Schemer", having read it when it was still in state of photocopied handout, and titled "The Little Lisper".  I would definitely advise you to buy it.  If only for the good advices it gives between exercises…
2020-02-18T23:35:07Z zaifir: Advice of the form "Quick! Eat donuts!"
2020-02-18T23:37:22Z zaifir: ... and "Go cons a piece of cake onto your mouth."
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2020-02-18T23:38:44Z ullbeking: pjb: thanks for the reassurances :D  i really *want* to buy it and i've already been loving reading the PDF version I currently have.  i like the approach it takes.  however i am still waiting for "when will it start to get really meaty...?  when will the exercises whose answers are longer than a word or a line start coming...?"
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2020-02-18T23:41:08Z zaifir: "[Dan Friedman takes] the "3x5 index-card" approach.  If you can't get your idea onto a 3x5 card, well, think think harder." --Will Byrd
2020-02-18T23:41:27Z zaifir: s/think think/think/ !
2020-02-18T23:42:43Z zaifir: TLS starts getting mind-bendy in Chapter 9.  But the code and prose are still quite concise.
2020-02-18T23:42:53Z pjb: ullbeking: oh, never, since that's the whole pedagogic style of providing very piecemeal learning bites.
2020-02-18T23:43:37Z pjb: ullbeking: but after it, you can read sicp or htdp, they'll have more consistent exercises and problems.
2020-02-18T23:43:50Z zaifir: The Little Books are like Zen koans.  You've got to think on them for a long time, then read again.
2020-02-18T23:44:01Z ullbeking: i see
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2020-02-18T23:44:57Z ullbeking: i've looked at SICP and immediately appreciated it.  HTDP looks wonderful, and i hope to have time to read it one day.  but the foundational book I *really* want to read deeply one of these days is...
2020-02-18T23:45:30Z ullbeking: "Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming" by Peter Van Roy
2020-02-18T23:45:43Z ullbeking: ^ this one looks amazing too
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2020-02-18T23:48:25Z ullbeking: 23:43 <pjb> ullbeking: but after it, you can read sicp or htdp, they'll have more consistent exercises and problems.
2020-02-18T23:48:25Z pjb: It's added on my tobuy list…
2020-02-18T23:48:25Z ullbeking: i'm particularly interested in learning how to reason more effectively about domain-specific problems in a reasoned, appropriately formalized way.  and i also want to reinterpret the current "state" of doing things in a different style whereby patterns are used, and differently to how they are so far...
2020-02-18T23:49:28Z ullbeking: kind of like "design patterns" but instead of expressing them in Java or C++, i would love to turn them inside out and see what Erlang, for example, would do to familiar design patterns
2020-02-18T23:49:33Z zaifir: ullbeking: Bird & Wadler's _Intro to Functional Programming_ is a classic in reasoning about programs. https://usi-pl.github.io/lc/sp-2015/doc/Bird_Wadler.%20Introduction%20to%20Functional%20Programming.1ed.pdf
2020-02-18T23:49:54Z ullbeking: zaifir: that is one of the first books on computer programming i ever read.  love at first sight!!
2020-02-18T23:50:03Z zaifir: ullbeking: Nice.  It's a great book.
2020-02-18T23:50:06Z ullbeking: the first edition is better than the second imho
2020-02-18T23:50:44Z ullbeking: i actually bought several copies of the first edition.  the second edition would be an AMAZING coursebook for a motivated undergrad to learn programming for the first or second time
2020-02-18T23:50:45Z zaifir: The second's awesome too, IMHO.  Hard to find, unfortunately.
2020-02-18T23:50:52Z ullbeking: hard to find?
2020-02-18T23:50:54Z ullbeking: really?
2020-02-18T23:51:12Z ullbeking: where do you live?
2020-02-18T23:51:15Z ullbeking: zaifir: ?
2020-02-18T23:52:29Z zaifir: ullbeking: Bird's _Introduction to FP using Haskell_?  It's out of print, AFAIK.
2020-02-18T23:53:00Z zaifir: ullbeking: US.  I did find a used copy, but it was kind of pricey.
2020-02-18T23:53:22Z ullbeking: other languages (perhaps surprisingly) that i have just started to learn with a strong focus are gawk, gsed, and bash, and to make liberal use of gnu extensions.  this trio is a mighty combination of "little languages", it is _very powerful_ :-)
2020-02-18T23:53:45Z ullbeking: zaifir: yes, i don't remember mine being hard to get or pricey.  lemme have another look...
2020-02-18T23:55:10Z ullbeking: zaifir: you can get a copy of bird & wadler, 2nd ed., here in the UK for only 15 GBP second hand.  i can get one and send it to you if you like?
2020-02-18T23:57:25Z zaifir: ullbeking: Hah, thanks, I appreciate it.  I've got a copy, though, as I said.  There's a more conversational 3rd edition out, too.
2020-02-18T23:57:49Z ullbeking: huh?!  wha'?! really?!!
2020-02-18T23:58:09Z zaifir: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Functionally-Haskell-Richard-Bird/dp/1107452643
2020-02-18T23:58:30Z zaifir: If there's any justice in the world, it will be known as "The Tiger Book" someday.  Look at that cover!
2020-02-19T00:00:38Z ullbeking: zaifir: i've just added it to my list ;-)
2020-02-19T00:03:43Z ullbeking: but honestly i'll probably just learn racket from TLS, move on the dependent types with TLT, learn rash, and then do more work on distributed and parallel computing with haskell and erlang.  especially geodistributed computing.
2020-02-19T00:08:59Z zaifir: ullbeking: The Little Schemer will really teach you about recursion and homoiconicity.  It doesn't cover any features of Scheme that it doesn't need for that purpose.
2020-02-19T00:09:22Z zaifir: ullbeking: Let alone all the features of modern Racket.
2020-02-19T00:10:02Z ullbeking: zaifir: homoiconicity is truly fascinating imo
2020-02-19T00:12:05Z ullbeking: i can't see how it "really" exists however... in other words, if your data structure is also an executable program in that language, then that is only _an appearance_.  are there ways of proving that a homoiconic representation of program as data has to satisfy certain morphisms, etc?
2020-02-19T00:18:43Z zaifir: ullbeking: An interesting article on that subject calculist.org/blog/2012/04/17/homoiconicity-isnt-the-point/
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2020-02-19T00:19:24Z ullbeking: zaifir: it's like you're reading my mind!!  thank you for the link :D
2020-02-19T00:19:28Z ullbeking: this is great
2020-02-19T00:19:45Z zaifir: Hah, yw.
2020-02-19T00:20:47Z ullbeking: hah, yeah!!!  the opening paragraph explains exactly what i was trying to bumble my way through in those few lines, and does it so well.
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2020-02-19T00:24:53Z zaifir: OK, given that homoiconicity is a controversial term, let me amend what I said about TLS: It teaches you about the difference between programs and program representations through the clever use of fonts.
2020-02-19T00:31:39Z ullbeking: i can easily get on board with that
2020-02-19T00:32:43Z ullbeking: the differences between programs and their representations is mind boggling, now that i've just thought about the meta-meta-meta-layers involves, self-compiling compilers, etc, etc :-/
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2020-02-19T03:52:34Z lockywolf__: Found the First Edition of SICP, and wow, it's even harder than the second edition. Almost the same content on 2.5 times less pages.
2020-02-19T03:55:56Z jcowan: Yes.  That was the complaint against it: too dense.
2020-02-19T03:56:49Z jcowan: I have now got PDFs of all seven "little" books, but I had to go to some uglly places to get them.
2020-02-19T03:57:29Z jcowan: they are obviously priced by people who buy their books with student loans.  But some are a lot bigger than I realized, 400+ pages
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2020-02-19T03:59:22Z lockywolf__: Thank god, printing+binding costs in China are 1 cent per page.
2020-02-19T04:02:02Z lockywolf__: At first I thought that "The Little Typer" was about learning how to type fast on a keyboard.
2020-02-19T04:03:37Z jcowan lols in rl
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2020-02-19T04:05:23Z lockywolf__: Well, the webpage address: https://felleisen.org/matthias/BTypist-index.html (note the _typist_ part) reinforced my errancy.
2020-02-19T04:06:39Z jcowan: praps that was the working title until someone noticed the ambiguity
2020-02-19T04:07:12Z lockywolf__: I suspect that's an intentional pun.
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2020-02-19T04:10:25Z lockywolf__: It would be nice to have a third edition of SICP.
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2020-02-19T04:11:26Z lockywolf__: Too many times I had the feeling that "after going through the pain of exx. X1 X2 X3, now we should learn, say, syntax-rules and find out how this stuff can be done three times faster"
2020-02-19T04:12:32Z lockywolf__: I'm actually adding notes where I do recognize such cases, but I'm too ignorant of modern scheme to recognize all of them.
2020-02-19T04:17:39Z moon-child: I'm trying to use a scheme (s7, specifically) as an embedded scripting language for my app.  But I want to have lots of scripts running concurrently, and not to pollute each others' namespaces
2020-02-19T04:18:20Z moon-child: how do?  Having a separate interpreter instance for each script seems like a lot of overhead.  I thought to wrap each file in ((lambda () ... )) before loading it (and have that lambda register hook functions), but apparently you can't (define) anything inside of a lambda
2020-02-19T04:19:05Z lockywolf__: I think, in chibi, every thread can be made to run in a separate heap
2020-02-19T04:20:08Z lockywolf__: defines inside a lambda should work... or you can write a macro transformer to turn (define) into a (letrec)
2020-02-19T04:20:08Z moon-child: I'm using s7.  Also I don't want separate threads or separate heaps, just separate namespaces
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2020-02-19T04:21:27Z lockywolf__: how would you avoid multiple threads if you want your scripts running simultaneously?
2020-02-19T04:21:51Z moon-child: wouldn't letrec require everything under one definition to be more indented underneath it
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2020-02-19T04:22:45Z lockywolf__: it would
2020-02-19T04:22:47Z moon-child: lockywolf__: is for a game, so each script is expected to do some computation and then return within milliseconds.  Probably will make that multithreaded, but it doesn't matter a ton
2020-02-19T04:23:30Z lockywolf__: well, again, if it is multithreaded and every thread has a separate heap, you should be getting what you want automatically
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2020-02-19T04:24:21Z moon-child: I don't want a separate thread for each script.  It should still work singlethreaded.  Multithreading will be: have one thread per core, but each thread still dispatches multiple scripts
2020-02-19T04:24:43Z lockywolf__: nah, you woudn't write a macro transformer for a (define). you would write a macro transformer for a (lambda)
2020-02-19T04:25:00Z moon-child: oic
2020-02-19T04:25:01Z moon-child: clever
2020-02-19T04:25:30Z lockywolf__: if each thread only runs a single script at a time, why would it matter?
2020-02-19T04:26:10Z lockywolf__: cf SICP 4.1.6 for a pedestrian way to do it
2020-02-19T04:26:49Z moon-child: script 1 defines a function called 'foo'.  script 2 also defines a function called 'foo'.  They should not collide
2020-02-19T04:26:51Z lockywolf__: but SICP doesn't use macros at all, so you would need to find out how to reformulate manual list manipulation in terms of a decent macro transformation
2020-02-19T04:27:29Z lockywolf__: your defines persist after the script finishes?
2020-02-19T04:27:52Z moon-child: the script defines a function like 'update', which I call repeatedly
2020-02-19T04:28:08Z moon-child: but the way I get 'update' is to just load the script file
2020-02-19T04:29:07Z lockywolf__: make the script return a lambda and a name pair
2020-02-19T04:29:34Z moon-child: yes.  But the script still wants to define functions for its own internal use
2020-02-19T04:30:52Z lockywolf__: ((lambda () (load "script") retval))?
2020-02-19T04:31:26Z moon-child: I'm an idiot
2020-02-19T04:31:47Z lockywolf__: non-top defines?
2020-02-19T04:31:58Z lockywolf__: *non-head defines?
2020-02-19T04:35:04Z lockywolf__: I wonder why define is called define, not define!
2020-02-19T04:35:12Z lockywolf__: and load is called load, not load!
2020-02-19T04:35:37Z Riastradh: It's not so much a side effect as a part of the program's structure.
2020-02-19T04:35:53Z lockywolf__: for define!
2020-02-19T04:35:59Z lockywolf__: what about load?
2020-02-19T04:36:00Z Riastradh: Yes, for define.
2020-02-19T04:36:09Z Riastradh: *shrug* hysterical raisins
2020-02-19T04:36:22Z Riastradh: (also load does not have very clear semantics)
2020-02-19T04:37:16Z lockywolf__: define could be a function...
2020-02-19T04:38:14Z lockywolf__: although scheme people hate sequentiality
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2020-02-19T04:57:28Z moon-child: lockywolf__: that lambda thing doesn't work.  The load still loads everything globally
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2020-02-19T05:01:41Z lockywolf__: moon-child,  r7rs says: (load filename environment-specifier )
2020-02-19T05:01:54Z lockywolf__: can you give it the environment somehow?
2020-02-19T05:03:39Z moon-child: hmmm, maybe
2020-02-19T05:05:45Z moon-child: I see make-environment in https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-7.4/doc-html/scheme_14.html, but it doesn't seem to exist in s7 or guile
2020-02-19T05:06:25Z Riastradh: (that is documentation for an approximately 25-year-old version of MIT Scheme)
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2020-02-19T05:07:16Z lockywolf__: I think you could create a let returning a lambda, and then use something like (procedure-environment mylambda)
2020-02-19T05:07:37Z lockywolf__: I think, chibi supports (procedure-environment)
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2020-02-19T05:08:58Z moon-child: lockywolf__: afaik chibi doesn't work well on windows.  IDK (I don't use it), but would rather not run into that later
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2020-02-19T05:13:48Z lockywolf__: well, I didn't suggest using chibi
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2020-02-19T05:14:20Z lockywolf__: I just suspected that there should be an alternative to (procedure-environment) in s7
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2020-02-19T05:14:24Z moon-child: doesn't seem to exist in s7.  Although there does seem to be a function called env, and a function called curlet
2020-02-19T05:14:31Z moon-child: which will possibly do something I want
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2020-02-19T05:14:37Z lockywolf__: not bad
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2020-02-19T06:18:47Z ullbeking: moon-child: you don't happen to be a fan of m83 by any chance?
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2020-02-19T06:19:39Z moon-child: ullbeking: never heard of them, why?
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2020-02-19T06:33:13Z moon-child: lockywolf__: btw, I found the solution.  It's frustratingly simple.  (eval '(whatever) (inlet))
2020-02-19T06:34:11Z lockywolf__: inlet means an inner let?
2020-02-19T06:34:27Z lockywolf__: which set!'s something?
2020-02-19T06:35:33Z moon-child: nope
2020-02-19T06:35:40Z moon-child: inlet just makes a new environment
2020-02-19T06:35:58Z moon-child: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/s7.html#environments
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2020-02-19T08:50:07Z lockywolf_: Has anyone seen a case when a reader doesn't understand a dotted list?
2020-02-19T08:50:37Z lockywolf_: In my case it creates a list instead of a pair and replaces the dot with a 0
2020-02-19T08:52:38Z erkin: That's really weird. Which implementation is that?
2020-02-19T08:52:48Z lockywolf_: chibi
2020-02-19T08:53:53Z lockywolf_: ah, wait
2020-02-19T08:53:56Z lockywolf_: found the problem
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2020-02-19T08:55:45Z lockywolf_: I'm piping some input into chibi, and the transformation happens somewhere in the pipeline before.
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2020-02-19T09:19:54Z bloodgreen: Excuse me
2020-02-19T09:20:00Z bloodgreen: I hope I am not interrupting a conversation
2020-02-19T09:20:07Z bloodgreen: But I have an issue with scheme
2020-02-19T09:20:23Z bloodgreen: I keep getting this error: `In procedure module-lookup: Unbound variable: set`
2020-02-19T09:20:42Z bloodgreen: Why is `set!` not recognized?
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2020-02-19T10:20:40Z lloda: set or set! bloodgreen
2020-02-19T10:23:32Z X-Scale: [09:20:43] <bloodgreen> Why is `set!` not recognized?
2020-02-19T10:23:32Z X-Scale: [09:22:29] *** bloodgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2020-02-19T10:23:43Z X-Scale: the newer generation just don't grasp the spirit of IRC anymore
2020-02-19T10:24:00Z X-Scale: s/don't/doesn't/
2020-02-19T10:27:55Z lloda: actually I have all of that muted
2020-02-19T10:41:11Z mdhughes: Also IRC is incredibly unstable with a lot of Internet connections and it's amazing it keeps up for minutes at a time.
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2020-02-19T10:47:57Z erkin: X-Scale: https://functional.cafe/@erkin/103660110231679011
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2020-02-19T11:34:11Z lockywolf: For a long time I have been wanting to put an IRC relay on my vps.
2020-02-19T11:34:43Z lockywolf: Already got banned on a few channels due to connection interrupts.
2020-02-19T11:34:54Z lockywolf: Btw, what is an rsc-macro-transformer?
2020-02-19T11:38:32Z lockywolf: I am vaguely familiar with sc-macro-transformer, but not with rsc
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2020-02-19T12:19:58Z ecraven: reverse syntactic closure, I think
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2020-02-19T13:09:12Z jcowan: Yes; see https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/SC-Transformer-Definition.html for an explanation of the duality between them.
2020-02-19T13:09:47Z jcowan: Pretty much any system with syntactic closures (MIT, Chibi, Picrin) will have both transformers.
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2020-02-19T14:25:57Z lockywolf: Friends, can some test reading the following sexp: (meeting accounting (Monday 9am))
2020-02-19T14:26:07Z lockywolf: on your favourite schemes
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2020-02-19T15:08:55Z lockywolf: Who is the boss of community.schemewiki.org ?
2020-02-19T15:08:59Z lockywolf: Shiro Kawai?
2020-02-19T15:09:25Z lockywolf: Wiki search is not working.
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2020-02-19T15:21:22Z Fare: Is there any syntax-case expert who can explain me what first argument to pass to datum->syntax to correctly synthesize an identifier from a string? I'm trying to extract identifier `a` from keyword `a:` around https://github.com/fare/gerbil-utils/blob/master/poo/poo.ss#L101 but failing. Test: (import :clan/poo/poo) (.get (.o a: 1 b: (+ a 1)) b) should evaluate to 2
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2020-02-19T15:24:37Z erkin: I'm not an expect but the first argument of datum->syntax is the template that determines the syntactic context of the return value.
2020-02-19T15:24:44Z zig: +1
2020-02-19T15:24:52Z zig: it seems to me (datum->syntax spec 'foobar)
2020-02-19T15:24:58Z zig: it seems to me (datum->syntax specs 'foobar)
2020-02-19T15:25:04Z erkin: You can just pass it #f if the context isn't important.
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2020-02-19T15:25:33Z zig: the consequence will be less readable stacktrace...
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2020-02-19T15:40:39Z gwatt: erkin: I think passing #f is not standard.
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2020-02-19T16:14:02Z erkin: gwatt: Hmm, yeah, R6RS says nothing about it.
2020-02-19T16:15:00Z erkin: Yeah, neither Chez nor Guile accepts it.
2020-02-19T16:16:36Z Riastradh: Fare: What happens when you try?  Minimum working example to reproduce the issue?
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2020-02-19T17:41:42Z belmarca: seems the .o macro wasn't passing a context. sent a PR
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2020-02-19T21:25:15Z TempeVolcano: Having trouble understanding this recursive function.
2020-02-19T21:25:45Z TempeVolcano: https://paste.debian.net/1131161/
2020-02-19T21:26:22Z TempeVolcano: It's to only make all the even words in a sentence appear.
2020-02-19T21:27:01Z zig: stay a while an listen
2020-02-19T21:27:58Z gwatt: TempeVolcano: what do the `se', `bl', `count', and `last' function do?
2020-02-19T21:29:06Z TempeVolcano: I don't get the else statement.  It seems like it drops the last word in sentence with (evens (bl sent) only to re-add it with (last sent).  Wouldn't it be simpler to not change the sentence at all?
2020-02-19T21:29:54Z TempeVolcano: se makes a sentence of any words, bl is "but last" so it drops the last word of the sentence and count counts the words.  Last just takes the last word of a sentence.
2020-02-19T21:31:40Z duncanm: I'm trying to someone's match macro, how do I teach emacs to give me sane indentation?
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2020-02-19T21:36:43Z gwatt: TempeVolcano: does it clarify the code if you replace `else' with "(even? (count sent))" ?
2020-02-19T21:37:12Z TempeVolcano: nevermind I got it, I didn't think though 100% the recursive function in the else statement.
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2020-02-19T21:58:03Z TempeVolcano: Okay now I'm having trouble understanding this one
2020-02-19T21:58:09Z TempeVolcano: https://paste.debian.net/1131165/
2020-02-19T21:58:46Z TempeVolcano: This function only show the even words in a sentence too.
2020-02-19T21:59:39Z TempeVolcano: "Simpy Scheme" says that it does this by looking at two words at a time.
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2020-02-19T22:00:51Z TempeVolcano: But to me it seems like it should show every other work regardless of whether it's odd or even.
2020-02-19T22:02:21Z TempeVolcano: This part "(se (first (bf sent))" would print the second word of the sentence whether or not that word is an even or odd word.
2020-02-19T22:04:28Z TempeVolcano: Never mind I got it again.  The second word in any sentence will be even, regardless if there's an even or odd number of words in it.
2020-02-19T22:05:16Z duncanm: seems like the Alex Shinn match macro depends on a thing called IS-A?
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2020-02-20T06:44:12Z Jmabsd: Riastradh: around?
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2020-02-20T09:17:05Z erkin: /r/scheme just had 6.001 subscribers. :-D
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2020-02-20T09:52:49Z lockywolf_: Who remember the Logic Programming part of the SICP? What does "extend a frame" mean?
2020-02-20T09:54:03Z wasamasa: surely they define what a frame is
2020-02-20T09:54:28Z lockywolf_: nope
2020-02-20T09:55:24Z Jmabsd: Guys can you tell me a silly "Hello world" macro in syntax-case?
2020-02-20T09:55:43Z Jmabsd: please actually tell me - i'm clueless.
2020-02-20T09:56:04Z Jmabsd: after "Hello world" i'll ask you for some macro that deals with a variable or some storage, such as a |begin0|.
2020-02-20T09:56:09Z Jmabsd: and then ponder
2020-02-20T09:56:14Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: I refuse to believe that
2020-02-20T09:56:17Z Jmabsd: jcowan: :)
2020-02-20T09:57:01Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, just as helpful as usual. I'm not surprised
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2020-02-20T09:58:43Z Jmabsd: Riastradh,wasamasa,ecraven: any suggestion?
2020-02-20T09:59:01Z wasamasa: if someone doesn't reply, you can assume they don't have any suggestion
2020-02-20T09:59:07Z Jmabsd: i don't get the syntax-case DSL up to now
2020-02-20T09:59:12Z wasamasa: in my case, I don't use r6rs at all
2020-02-20T09:59:17Z Jmabsd: wasamasa: syntax-case is lingua franca here
2020-02-20T09:59:23Z wasamasa: as if
2020-02-20T09:59:30Z Jmabsd: wasamasa: i was 98% happy with define-macro since ever too
2020-02-20T09:59:35Z wasamasa: I used macros in scheme like, once
2020-02-20T09:59:40Z Jmabsd: mm
2020-02-20T09:59:47Z Jmabsd: for whatever reason i need to learn syntax-case now
2020-02-20T10:00:06Z Jmabsd: anyhow there is some good to it: it preserves code locations, and it has some hygiene foolproofness. so like, okay let's do it
2020-02-20T10:00:26Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: as expected, it does indeed define frames in chapter 4.4.2
2020-02-20T10:00:33Z ecraven: Jmabsd: begin0 should be written in syntax-rules, as that is very much capable of writing this. imho, you should only use syntax-case if it is actually necessary
2020-02-20T10:00:59Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: a list of bindings
2020-02-20T10:01:00Z Jmabsd: ecraven: right now i like to learn syntax-case so let's do begin0 in it
2020-02-20T10:01:18Z Jmabsd: first how do you make a syntax-case macro which equals (define-macro (helloworld) `(display "Hello world\n")) ?
2020-02-20T10:01:21Z ecraven: well, your best bet is to *read* the *documentation* and look at examples
2020-02-20T10:01:32Z Jmabsd: ecraven: which documentation? lol
2020-02-20T10:01:38Z Jmabsd: i'm aware there's a very hard to read paper somewhere
2020-02-20T10:01:38Z ecraven: pick one, there are multiple
2020-02-20T10:01:49Z Jmabsd: i walked through Racket's documentation at some point, didn't look like it had any on this topic
2020-02-20T10:01:58Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: so you extend a frame the same way you extend a list
2020-02-20T10:02:02Z Jmabsd: nothing descriptive at least
2020-02-20T10:02:06Z Jmabsd: ecraven: can you suggest one?
2020-02-20T10:02:08Z ecraven: Jmabsd: just duck or google for "syntax case introduction scheme"
2020-02-20T10:02:09Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, you didn't read what I wrote, right?
2020-02-20T10:02:15Z Jmabsd: i like something descriptive, not just a list of identifiers involved
2020-02-20T10:02:34Z ecraven: there, by Eli, that's probably good: https://blog.racket-lang.org/2011/04/writing-syntax-case-macros.html
2020-02-20T10:02:46Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: I applied logic 101 to it, yes
2020-02-20T10:02:49Z ecraven: that defines a simple `while' macro
2020-02-20T10:02:59Z lockywolf_: I'm talking about the "logical programming" part, not about the other interpreters.
2020-02-20T10:03:06Z Jmabsd: neat
2020-02-20T10:03:58Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: so you're not talking about chapter 4.4.2, part of the "Logic programming" chapter?
2020-02-20T10:04:18Z lockywolf_: 4.4.3
2020-02-20T10:04:32Z wasamasa: yes, it's normal that a chapter assumes you've read the previous one
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2020-02-20T10:04:54Z lockywolf_: just try (display frame) in any function that implements the interpreter
2020-02-20T10:05:15Z lockywolf_: to be sure that it is not a list of binding
2020-02-20T10:05:33Z wasamasa: how it's implemented is orthogonal to how it's defined
2020-02-20T10:05:41Z wasamasa: that's something you learn early on in SICP
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2020-02-20T10:06:15Z lockywolf_: a "list" is quite well defined in SICP
2020-02-20T10:06:57Z lockywolf_: Also, I've never seen such an operation as an "extension of a list".
2020-02-20T10:07:09Z lockywolf_: I've seen extensions of environments.
2020-02-20T10:07:11Z wasamasa: append
2020-02-20T10:07:20Z wasamasa: surely you've heard of it
2020-02-20T10:09:00Z lockywolf_: that's patently wrong. We extend (say, in the ordinary metacircular part) the environment by cons'ing, not by appending.
2020-02-20T10:09:34Z wasamasa: so it's a stack of bindings
2020-02-20T10:09:55Z wasamasa: great, you've figured out how a frame is actually defined
2020-02-20T10:10:03Z lockywolf_: no, not at all
2020-02-20T10:10:14Z lockywolf_: that's not "metacircular frames" are defined
2020-02-20T10:10:39Z lockywolf_: I don't see how they are even related to this question.
2020-02-20T10:10:49Z wasamasa: why are you jumping from frames as defined in that chapter to metacircularity?
2020-02-20T10:11:11Z lockywolf_: because _you_ are doing it
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2020-02-20T10:11:53Z wasamasa: nah, just because you say "We" doesn't mean I'm the one claiming it :P
2020-02-20T10:12:12Z wasamasa: for your info, no, I haven't got that far in SICP and am just playing socratic dialogue
2020-02-20T10:12:31Z Jmabsd: ecraven: ok, i found approx three sensible references from the search
2020-02-20T10:12:31Z lockywolf_: ok
2020-02-20T10:13:04Z wasamasa: if I search far enough into SICP, I eventually find at chapter 4.4.4.8 a definition
2020-02-20T10:13:10Z wasamasa: > Frames are represented as lists of bindings, which are variable-value pairs:
2020-02-20T10:13:21Z wasamasa: and an extend procedure
2020-02-20T10:13:35Z wasamasa: which does indeed use cons, making frames a bindings stack
2020-02-20T10:15:03Z wasamasa: so, most disappointingly, I turned out to be right, they actually define it using `define' even!
2020-02-20T10:15:23Z lockywolf_: try printing them with (display)
2020-02-20T10:15:33Z wasamasa: there we go again
2020-02-20T10:16:21Z lockywolf_: okay, "try printing them and matching against (variable . value)", if you insist
2020-02-20T10:16:59Z wasamasa: sure, if you give me the code
2020-02-20T10:17:15Z lockywolf_: (display frame)
2020-02-20T10:17:22Z wasamasa: that's not the complete code
2020-02-20T10:18:25Z wasamasa: remember, I haven't completed that part of SICP and even if I did it would be nonsensical to compare our implementations which are most likely different anyway
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2020-02-20T10:19:04Z ecraven: many things cannot be printed with `display'
2020-02-20T10:19:09Z wasamasa: that, too
2020-02-20T10:19:22Z wasamasa: printing a procedure with display will not necessarily show you something meaningful
2020-02-20T10:19:33Z wasamasa: but that doesn't mean you can't do anything meaningful with the procedure
2020-02-20T10:19:44Z wasamasa: it just means that you can't tell with display's result
2020-02-20T10:19:48Z ecraven: especially the parts of SICP that do everything with closures ;)
2020-02-20T10:19:58Z wasamasa: yeah, I suspect it's something like that
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2020-02-20T10:20:10Z lockywolf_: display prints lists fine almost everywhere
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2020-02-20T10:20:44Z wasamasa: then you have to enlighten us why you insist on us doing that test
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2020-02-20T10:20:57Z wasamasa: what exactly makes you think you can convince me otherwise with that?
2020-02-20T10:21:08Z wasamasa: is it the absence of the dot in the printed representation?
2020-02-20T10:22:32Z lockywolf_: the fact that a "variable" is not a symbol
2020-02-20T10:22:46Z wasamasa: ...
2020-02-20T10:22:56Z wasamasa: a variable can be represented as a symbol
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2020-02-20T10:23:30Z lockywolf_: the name of the variable is usually a symbol
2020-02-20T10:23:34Z wasamasa: in fact, that's how they're represented in many scheme implementations
2020-02-20T10:23:43Z wasamasa: and other lisp implementations, too
2020-02-20T10:24:07Z wasamasa: except clojure, but screw these non-traditionalists :D
2020-02-20T10:24:24Z mdhughes: (define foo 1) (eval foo) => 1
2020-02-20T10:24:47Z mdhughes: (define foo 1) (eval 'foo) => 1
2020-02-20T10:25:34Z mdhughes remembers to use copy-paste, even when it's several short lines.
2020-02-20T10:26:15Z wasamasa: well, that was a letdown
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2020-02-20T10:26:38Z ecraven: lockywolf_: so, to come back to your original question, https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-29.html#%_sec_4.4.4.8 seems to show a function `extend'
2020-02-20T10:26:54Z wasamasa: SICP does cover that in the symbolic differentiation part of chapter 2 or so
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2020-02-20T10:27:02Z wasamasa: the dual nature of symbols and variables
2020-02-20T10:27:47Z ecraven: to me, a symbol is just a unique string, there's nothing magical about it. foo in (eval foo) is not a symbol, it's an identifier
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2020-02-20T10:28:30Z tdammers: it is important in this context to make the distinction between a symbol and a binding though, because of lexical scope
2020-02-20T10:28:31Z lockywolf_: ecraven, yeah, but what's the meaning of that? so far frames indeed were just (name . value) pairs with primitive "name"s
2020-02-20T10:28:56Z lockywolf_: but now the first part of a binding is something non-primitive
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2020-02-20T10:29:07Z ecraven: lockywolf_: are you sure? it's been a very long time, but it seems frames are a list of (name . value) pairs
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2020-02-20T10:29:33Z ecraven: so ((name . value) (name . value)), also known as alists ;)
2020-02-20T10:30:05Z lockywolf_: ecraven, well, not in the logical interpreter part.
2020-02-20T10:30:14Z mdhughes: ecraven: That's why the corrected version is more interesting. 'foo is a symbol, eval makes it an identifier and returns the bound value.
2020-02-20T10:30:17Z lockywolf_: usually they are
2020-02-20T10:30:26Z ecraven: where does it define frames as (name . value)?
2020-02-20T10:30:41Z lockywolf_: ecraven, ahh, soryy
2020-02-20T10:30:44Z lockywolf_: *sorry
2020-02-20T10:30:50Z ecraven: there are also places where SICP defines the empty frame as '()
2020-02-20T10:31:00Z lockywolf_: you are right they are alists
2020-02-20T10:31:08Z ecraven: well, mostly wasamasa is right ;)
2020-02-20T10:31:10Z ecraven: I just joined in
2020-02-20T10:31:19Z lockywolf_: I meant to say "binding"
2020-02-20T10:31:34Z ecraven: well, a frame is a list of bindings. each binding is a pair of (name . value)
2020-02-20T10:31:44Z ecraven: you can't extend a binding, but you can extend a frame
2020-02-20T10:32:05Z lockywolf_: yeah, but the logical part has non-primitive names
2020-02-20T10:32:16Z ecraven: for example, https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-29.html#%_sec_4.4.4.1 defines the empty frame as (singleton-stream '())
2020-02-20T10:32:25Z ecraven: well, the "name" can be whatever your code uses as a name
2020-02-20T10:33:26Z lockywolf_: well, so far the only operation meaningful on "name"s was ?eq
2020-02-20T10:33:59Z ecraven: that's something SICP tries to teach you.. it doesn't matter how names are implemented, as long as they can be accessed with the same "API"
2020-02-20T10:34:09Z ecraven: so if your names only use eq?, they can be anything that works with eq?
2020-02-20T10:34:41Z lockywolf_: yes, that's true, but the logical part does something more clever with them
2020-02-20T10:37:11Z lockywolf_: I think that the semantics of the "extend" in the logical part is rather the opposite.
2020-02-20T10:37:26Z lockywolf_: more like "specialize"
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2020-02-20T10:44:19Z lockywolf_: What is the correct way of printing complicated data structures?
2020-02-20T10:48:53Z lockywolf_: For example, (display a) will print a complete printed representation of a as if all its meaning is to be some nested pairs and empty lists. But I want (for example) to do "almost" like this, but with an exception that if a tree-walker inside the (display) sees something that looks like (tacit . anything), it would not walk the tree inside "anything" but just print "(a tacit part)"
2020-02-20T10:50:39Z lockywolf_: So (a b (tacit (c (e d))) . f) would be printed like (a b (tacit part) . f)
2020-02-20T10:51:07Z lockywolf_: sorry, like (a b (a tacit part) . f)
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2020-02-20T10:52:55Z lockywolf_: I can make a printer for this particular case, but I can't believe such a question hasn't arisen in the past and hasn't been solved.
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2020-02-20T11:33:21Z wasamasa: lockywolf: in true lisp fashion there's at least three different attempts at solving this, pretty-print, grinders and object inspectors
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2020-02-20T12:04:01Z lockywolf: yeah, sicp's vocabulary usage bites me not for the first time
2020-02-20T12:04:21Z ecraven: wasamasa: grinders?
2020-02-20T12:04:45Z wasamasa: grinding is an ancient term for formatting source code
2020-02-20T12:04:48Z ecraven: I've been using the SLIME inspector more and more often, it is a very nice way to inspect complicated objects.. pretty-printing (especially of circular structures) is not so much fun
2020-02-20T12:04:55Z ecraven: never happened across that ;)
2020-02-20T12:05:05Z wasamasa: it's different from pretty-printing which is about showing a data structure in a useful way
2020-02-20T12:05:37Z ecraven: ah, here: https://www.t3x.org/lisp64k/grinding.html
2020-02-20T12:06:04Z wasamasa: that's a nice example
2020-02-20T12:06:26Z ecraven: how is that different than pretty-printing?
2020-02-20T12:06:50Z wasamasa: it is designed to work on code
2020-02-20T12:07:05Z wasamasa: a grinder knows that it has to handle let specially
2020-02-20T12:07:16Z ecraven: ah, thanks for the clarification!
2020-02-20T12:08:50Z ecraven: hm.. I never looked at most of the pages on t3x before, an interesting site
2020-02-20T12:08:57Z fritschy_: TIL: "Code Grinding" - thanks a bunch! :)
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2020-02-20T12:10:24Z wasamasa: an inspector is what you want in an IDE to print the parts of the object you're interested in
2020-02-20T12:10:44Z wasamasa: pretty-printing is more limited since it's a batch operation you can customize to some degree
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2020-02-20T12:11:56Z wasamasa: like print depth and width of objects
2020-02-20T12:11:57Z ecraven: has anyone read this? https://www.t3x.org/lsi/index.html
2020-02-20T12:12:15Z wasamasa: I keep pondering to buy his books, but I know I wouldn't read them
2020-02-20T12:12:25Z wasamasa: which is a shame since Nils Holm can write very well
2020-02-20T12:13:04Z ecraven: ah, he's the s9fes guy, right?
2020-02-20T12:13:06Z wasamasa: yes
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2020-02-20T17:36:03Z jcowan: Though many people call grinding "pretty-printing" anyway
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2020-02-20T17:46:09Z zaifir: Funny, since a "code grinder" is (according to some versions of the Jargon File) an unimaginative corporate programmer.
2020-02-20T17:46:34Z erkin: I've seen it used that way fairly commonly.
2020-02-20T17:46:43Z erkin: Especially in reference to front-end developers.
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2020-02-20T18:11:03Z belmarca: what would be the cleanest way to "map" a macro to lists using define-macro? I have this http://paste.debian.net/1131285/ but it breaks.
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2020-02-20T18:15:05Z belmarca: in effect I just want it to expand into a series of defines
2020-02-20T18:18:34Z wasamasa: begin works for that
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2020-02-20T18:51:42Z belmarca: yeah but mapping a macro with define-macro just won't work
2020-02-20T18:52:17Z belmarca: (macro-A (a b c) (d e f)) => (begin (macro-B a b c) (macro-B d e f))
2020-02-20T18:53:13Z jcowan: Not all the jargon of MIT etc. escaped, and sometimes there are conflicts
2020-02-20T18:53:29Z jcowan: flush=discard output vs. flush=force output is the most pernicious
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2020-02-20T18:53:59Z jcowan: I still talk about flushing code, ideas, doc paragraphs, etc.
2020-02-20T18:54:14Z jcowan: s/escaped/became pervasive
2020-02-20T19:02:24Z belmarca: ok, I have a solution:
2020-02-20T19:02:47Z belmarca: http://paste.debian.net/1131293/
2020-02-20T19:02:48Z wasamasa: composing macros is hard
2020-02-20T19:02:54Z belmarca: yeah especially define-macro
2020-02-20T19:02:55Z wasamasa: you can't even map them because they're syntax, lol
2020-02-20T19:03:07Z belmarca: I loop and accumulate
2020-02-20T19:03:07Z wasamasa: compose functions instead :>
2020-02-20T19:03:25Z wasamasa: that works for a specific depth, yes
2020-02-20T19:03:39Z belmarca: yeah works fine for my current use...
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2020-02-20T19:56:17Z pnp: hi all ... i have to ask for your kind help since i'm struggling with a simple problem to long without find a way to solve it... i'm using alist to represent environments but i'm not able to properly set new values to existing ones inside the env
2020-02-20T19:56:23Z pnp: let me paste the code...
2020-02-20T19:56:43Z pnp: Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/edb16071b30fd7c6924a01230d288d00/pasted.txt
2020-02-20T19:57:12Z pnp: any advice or suggestion is welcome, thank you in advance
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2020-02-20T20:02:29Z erkin: pnp: env-set! doesn't mutate anything.
2020-02-20T20:02:34Z kjak: pnp: as you say in your comment in env-set!, you are making a copy of the environment.  you're not actually changing env.  did you intend to do something like (set! env (env-set! ...)) ?
2020-02-20T20:02:37Z erkin: It returns a list that you discard.
2020-02-20T20:04:31Z erkin: A nitpick: Instead of nesting cons, try cons* or list*. Similarly, you can convert (car (car ...)) into (caar ...), (cdr (car ...)) into (cdar ...) and so on.
2020-02-20T20:15:40Z pnp: ok, thank you for your advices
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2020-02-20T20:27:01Z pjb: pnp: don't use env-set!  use (env-updae env …) -> updated-env
2020-02-20T20:27:32Z pjb: pnp: or don't use a-list. a-list are lists and they don't exist in lisp! (or scheme).  There is only chains of conses.
2020-02-20T20:30:07Z pnp: i'm using env-set! to stick to names given in an "article" i'm reading: http://matt.might.net/articles/implementing-a-programming-language/
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2020-02-20T20:30:35Z pnp: there cells as structs were used for values and hash tables to represent envs
2020-02-20T20:30:41Z pjb: pnp: then use a mutable structure!
2020-02-20T20:31:00Z pjb: pnp: with a-list, an empty environemnt is represented by () and () is immutable!!!
2020-02-20T20:31:23Z pjb: pnp: at minima, you can use a cons cell: (environment . …)
2020-02-20T20:32:09Z pnp: do you mean the same approach of chapter 4 or sicp?
2020-02-20T20:32:19Z pnp: if i remember well ... but i'm not sure
2020-02-20T20:32:48Z pjb: (define (make-environment) (cons 'environment '()))  (define (env-set! env name value) (set-cdr! env (cons (cons name value) (cdr env))))  (let ((e (make-environment))) (env-set! e 'foo 42) e) --> (environment (foo . 42))
2020-02-20T20:33:29Z pnp: yes i need set-cdr!
2020-02-20T20:33:44Z pjb: Only if you use a-lists and cons cells.
2020-02-20T20:33:53Z pjb: I would rather use classes and objects…
2020-02-20T20:34:11Z pjb: But a-lists are ok for small environments.
2020-02-20T20:35:01Z pnp: yes i'm still at chaper 1 of lisp
2020-02-20T20:35:09Z pnp: *chapter :/
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2020-02-20T21:50:27Z TempeVolcano: I'm finishing the "Leap of Faith" Chapter in "Simply Scheme" and it blows me away that you can make recursive functions with the "Leap of Faith" method.  I had no idea Scheme was so powerful!  I still don't feel like I can come up with these recursive functions on my own though lol :P
2020-02-20T21:50:39Z wasamasa: with time you will
2020-02-20T21:51:17Z wasamasa: most code using recursion does so for fundamentally iterative algorithms, the template for those is super predictable
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2020-02-21T07:42:15Z lockywolf: Is there a way to write a symmetric ~reverse~ for the SICP 4.68?
2020-02-21T07:42:23Z lockywolf: If anybody tried.
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2020-02-21T10:58:36Z amerigo: is there some straightforward way to emulate syntax-local-get-shadower in chezscheme?
2020-02-21T10:58:57Z amerigo: and syntax-local-introduce?
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2020-02-21T13:38:00Z jcowan: lockywolf: What do you mean by symmetric reverse?
2020-02-21T13:40:12Z lockywolf: jcowan, well, this is the logical interpreter
2020-02-21T13:40:13Z lockywolf: http://community.schemewiki.org/?sicp-ex-4.68
2020-02-21T13:40:40Z lockywolf: The task is to create a rule that ensures (reverse a b)
2020-02-21T13:41:03Z jcowan: Oh, okay, Prolog reverse.
2020-02-21T13:41:25Z lockywolf: (reverse ?a (1 2 4)) -> (?a . (4 2 1))
2020-02-21T13:42:05Z lockywolf: but I didn't manage to make a version which would be able to reverse both ?a and ?b
2020-02-21T13:42:39Z lockywolf: And I didn't find any other person's solution which would accomplish this.
2020-02-21T13:43:32Z lockywolf: I tried to make an (interleave ?a ?b) rule, which didn't loop.
2020-02-21T13:43:58Z lockywolf: And then tried to write a (palindrome ?a)
2020-02-21T13:44:04Z lockywolf: But the system still loops.
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2020-02-21T13:48:17Z lockywolf: The Reasoned Schemer has a bit about that
2020-02-21T13:55:17Z lockywolf: But I didn't find a reversion function there
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2020-02-21T14:47:05Z erkin: Arch community packaging team still hasn't responded to my bug report.
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2020-02-21T15:54:33Z zaifir: I'm not sure I've ever seen an implementation of the full reverse relation in a relational language.  William Byrd poses reverseo as an "optional brainteaser" (http://webyrd.net/stp.htm), and does indeed mention palindromeo.
2020-02-21T15:54:41Z zaifir: Oh, lockywolf is gone again.
2020-02-21T15:57:07Z jcowan: yes, he gets bounced a lot.
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2020-02-21T16:36:49Z zig: amerigo: idk.
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2020-02-21T17:26:51Z xuxx: I do not understand the meaning of top-level
2020-02-21T17:27:12Z xuxx: > function
2020-02-21T17:27:20Z xuxx: > <primitive:function>
2020-02-21T17:27:39Z xuxx: It return this bcs of the top-level that's what I read
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2020-02-21T17:29:23Z zaifir: xuxx: That looks like what might be printed as the value of +, or something else the Scheme implementation considers primitive.
2020-02-21T17:34:50Z zaifir: xuxx: Re: the top-level, c.f. R7RS 5.3.1.  A top-level definition of a name means it's visible everywhere, i.e. it's "global" as opposed to "local".
2020-02-21T17:36:14Z zaifir: xuxx: Top-level bindings are the ones that can't (visibly) be translated into lambda application, if that makes sense.
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2020-02-21T17:45:10Z xuxx: do you have a good link that explain the meaning of lamba-calculs ?
2020-02-21T17:48:15Z zaifir: xuxx: There are a *lot* of books on the subject.  If you know Scheme, The Little Schemer is a good place to start; it introduces (Scheme-flavored) λ-calculus in Chapter 9.
2020-02-21T17:49:25Z zaifir: xuxx: Michaelson's _Introduction to Functional Programming Through λ-Calculus_, also.
2020-02-21T17:50:23Z zaifir: xuxx: Oh yeah, and a link. https://www.utdallas.edu/~gupta/courses/apl/lambda.pdf
2020-02-21T17:50:47Z xuxx: ty
2020-02-21T17:52:59Z xuxx: and i'm lost on internet, I found scheme interpreter and compiler
2020-02-21T17:54:19Z xuxx: isn't a language compiled xor interpreted ?
2020-02-21T17:54:57Z bandali: nope, can be both compiled and have an interpreter / REPL
2020-02-21T17:55:12Z bandali: also, scheme has many implementations
2020-02-21T17:55:24Z xuxx: wtf
2020-02-21T17:55:26Z bandali: which are kinda like separate languages themselves
2020-02-21T17:55:34Z bandali: like guile scheme, chicken scheme, racket, ...
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2020-02-21T18:02:45Z zaifir: The interesting question is, why are some languages interpreted xor compiled.
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2020-02-21T18:03:47Z pjb: zaifir: interpreter or compiler is not a property of languages.
2020-02-21T18:04:10Z pjb: zaifir: it's a property of implementations.  And it's not black and white.  There are levels of gray.
2020-02-21T18:04:26Z zaifir: pjb: Of course.
2020-02-21T18:04:32Z pjb: zaifir: for example, an implementation can have both an interpreter and a compiler, and use them in different circumstances.
2020-02-21T18:04:50Z pjb: zaifir: or an implementation can compile to some intermediate representation and interpret it.
2020-02-21T18:04:55Z zaifir: pjb: I'm aware.
2020-02-21T18:05:01Z pjb: (Usually interpreters don't interpret the source text).
2020-02-21T18:05:17Z pjb: Then if you are aware, why are you asking a dumb question?
2020-02-21T18:06:00Z Riastradh: pjb: Cut the hostility, please.
2020-02-21T18:06:25Z pjb: Riastradh: I really want to know! There's no hostility, just incomprehension of the mind process!
2020-02-21T18:06:49Z pjb: zaifir: you may ponder about what makes a script, and a "scripting" language.  This should lead you to some interesting leads about the question you didn't ask.
2020-02-21T18:07:01Z pjb: Riastradh: and I find your admonition very hostile!
2020-02-21T18:07:12Z zaifir: pjb: It's interesting to consider for what technical reasons an implementation would provide a compiler, and not an interpreter, or vice versa.
2020-02-21T18:07:23Z pjb: Riastradh: so: Cut the hostility, please.
2020-02-21T18:07:38Z Riastradh: pjb: Then please step back a moment and consider how `why are you asking a dumb question?' might be seen as unfriendly.
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2020-02-21T18:09:59Z ecraven: zaifir: consider what the technical reason would be to provide *both* in the same implementation
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2020-02-21T18:12:04Z jcowan: pjb is our resident troll, but he *can* be helpful when he feels like it.
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2020-02-21T18:13:13Z xuxx: programming without side effects with scheme
2020-02-21T18:13:21Z xuxx: What's the meaning of side effects ?
2020-02-21T18:13:39Z jcowan: I would say that some languages are too dynamic and have too little for AOT compilers to capture, although JIT compilation (first used afaik in 1977 for APL) can win for them.
2020-02-21T18:13:46Z zaifir: ecraven: That too.  My point was that, rather than "compiled"/"interpreted" being properties of languages, they're choices made by implementations of languages.
2020-02-21T18:14:01Z jcowan: Yes.  I thought you wanted to know why they make those choices.
2020-02-21T18:14:17Z ecraven: well, given that some implementations support *both*, they are obviously not "choices" as such
2020-02-21T18:14:25Z zaifir: jcowan: Thanks, that's informative.
2020-02-21T18:14:32Z ecraven: there are interpreters of C, I believe
2020-02-21T18:14:54Z zaifir: jcowan: Actually, I was posing it as food-for-thought for xuxx, since they seemed to believe otherwise.  I've been communicating poorly today, it seems.
2020-02-21T18:15:01Z jcowan: There are.
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2020-02-21T18:15:30Z jcowan: And then there is Vacieties, which compiles C into Common Lisp, thus giving a safe while still reasonably fast implementation of C.
2020-02-21T18:15:35Z jcowan: Vacietis
2020-02-21T18:15:49Z ecraven: sounds like the symbolics C implementation
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2020-02-21T18:16:43Z bandali: xuxx, side-effects in programming languages generally refer to impure operations like mutating (changing) a variable's value or doing input/output
2020-02-21T18:17:17Z jcowan: Indeed, a conceptual descendant of ZetaC and sharing many of its ideas
2020-02-21T18:17:24Z bandali: these are in contrast to `pure' functions (in the mathematical sense), which for any given input always return the same output
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2020-02-21T18:18:45Z jcowan: There are degrees of purity too: a function that writes something that neither it nor the rest of the program can read back, a log file or partial core dump, is pure enough for practical purposes.
2020-02-21T18:18:48Z erkin: If you evaluate a pure function, you can be certain that it doesn't alter anything in the rest of the universe. It does nothing other than silently working on the value you provided it and returning a new value.
2020-02-21T18:20:33Z zaifir: xuxx: Say, the C statement ‘if (i++ > n) { ... }’.  The evaluation of the inequality has the side-effect of changing the value of i.
2020-02-21T18:20:36Z jcowan: Ada was built to the Steelman requirements, and here is 4C:  "4C. Side Effects. The language shall attempt to minimize side effects in expressions, but shall not prohibit all side effects. A side effect shall not be allowed if it would alter the value of a variable that can be accessed at the point of the expression. Side effects shall be limited to own variables of encapsulations. The language shall permit side effects
2020-02-21T18:20:36Z jcowan: that are necessary to instrument functions and to do storage management within functions. The order of side effects within an expression shall not be guaranteed. [Note that the latter implies that any program that depends on the order of side effects is erroneous.]"
2020-02-21T18:20:44Z xuxx: https://paste.debian.net/1131448/
2020-02-21T18:20:58Z jcowan: By "own variables of encapsulations" is meant global or module-level variables.
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2020-02-21T18:21:46Z jcowan: Even in Haskell, allocating memory to create a new object is not considered a side effect.
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2020-02-21T18:22:25Z jcowan: (In fact Ada unfortunately allows indiscriminate side effects within functions, so 4C is not really satisfied.)
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2020-02-21T18:24:06Z jcowan: xuxx: Your second definition defines not abs but something that is the negative of the absolute value.  Also, -x is a variable in Scheme, not the negation of a variable: that's (- x).
2020-02-21T18:25:35Z zig: that is also different from (not x)
2020-02-21T18:26:00Z xuxx: (not x) return a bool no ?
2020-02-21T18:26:23Z ecraven: (not x) returns #t if x is #f, and #f otherwise
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2020-02-21T18:37:10Z jcowan: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis
2020-02-21T18:39:36Z jcowan: I'd love to have a version of it that generated Scheme (even if it still ran on CL).
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2020-02-21T18:54:29Z xuxx: ((func (lambda (x) (+ x 4))) (func 3))
2020-02-21T18:54:34Z xuxx: why this doesn't work ?
2020-02-21T18:55:33Z zaifir: xuxx: It looks like you want to define func: (define func (lambda (x) (+ x 4)))
2020-02-21T18:55:45Z wasamasa: or use let
2020-02-21T18:56:04Z wasamasa: (let ((func (lambda (x) (+ x 4)))) (func 3))
2020-02-21T18:57:28Z xuxx: what's the meaning of let :o ?
2020-02-21T18:59:20Z zaifir: xuxx: (let ((<name> <val>) ...) <body>) binds names to values in the <body> expressions: (let ((x 4)) x) ; => 4
2020-02-21T18:59:39Z wasamasa: local variables essentially
2020-02-21T19:00:24Z xuxx: oh okey
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2020-02-21T19:03:11Z zaifir: xuxx: c.f. https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/start.html#./start:h4
2020-02-21T19:09:14Z xuxx: (let ((val 10) (func (lambda (x) (+ val x))) (func 10)) so this isn't possible ?
2020-02-21T19:09:25Z xuxx: the access is only in the body ?
2020-02-21T19:09:36Z zaifir: xuxx: You need let* for that.
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2020-02-21T19:10:31Z zaifir: xuxx: (let* ((x 1) (y 2)) ...) is equivalent to (let ((x 1)) (let ((y 2)) ...))
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2020-02-21T19:10:45Z zaifir: whoa
2020-02-21T19:12:35Z xuxx: ty !
2020-02-21T19:15:22Z xuxx: zaifir: ty for the book !
2020-02-21T19:15:35Z zaifir: xuxx: yw!  I hope you enjoy it.
2020-02-21T19:23:48Z zig: I made a small experiment this week, I translated the code of my versioned data store into python, droped the git-like DAG history, to only support single branch history and stashed changes, in order to maximize concurrency hence collaboration.
2020-02-21T19:25:39Z zig: I pushed the code on github: 7 stars, 50 cloners, at some point they were more cloners that merely vistors.
2020-02-21T19:25:49Z zig: The website was hit 5000 times, 1800 unique visitors, hackernews score: 2, lobster score: 3, reddit: -1.
2020-02-21T19:27:58Z zig: here is an example query: http://copernic.space/query/?uid0=0uid%3F&key0=title&value0=copernic&uid1=0uid%3F&key1=key%3F&value1=value%3F
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2020-02-21T19:33:01Z zig: Also, I did not make "opioniated choices" and relied and python industry standards, outside the use of foundationdb.
2020-02-21T19:34:50Z zig: Less than 5 direct feedback, first kind: "what is it?", second kind: "I can do better".
2020-02-21T19:37:45Z zig: Also I ran chez scheme 5 days to import wikidata in wiredtiger, sure thing it requires much more than two months to do the thing in full, on the hardware I have: RAID6 SATA.
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2020-02-21T21:43:11Z Oxyd: I'm confused about the top-level environment and syntax transformers: https://paste.debian.net/1131481/ If I comment out lines 6 to 12, Chibi accepts that program with line 4 referring to the foo defined at line 14, as I would expect. But the macro somehow interferes with that. I'm not sure what in what order things are happening when a Scheme program is being processed. Clearly, macro expansion is
2020-02-21T21:43:12Z Oxyd: interleaved with parsing of the expanded program and variables can shadow syntax transformers of the same name. Also all top-level definitions are known everywhere so that a function can refer to another function defined later – which implies that the entire source must be expanded first because some variables could be defined by macro expansions.
2020-02-21T21:44:29Z wasamasa: elisp has this rule that you must define macros before everything using them or you lose
2020-02-21T21:45:12Z wasamasa: I think more things could benefit from such a rule :>
2020-02-21T21:45:56Z wasamasa: also, why would you have macros and functions with the same name
2020-02-21T21:46:01Z wasamasa: even in a lisp-2 that doesn't work
2020-02-21T21:46:15Z Oxyd: In Scheme, it does.
2020-02-21T21:47:02Z Oxyd: R7RS is actually pretty explicit about define creating a new binding if the name is already bound to a syntax transformer.
2020-02-21T21:48:08Z Oxyd: Which leads me to believe that shadowing a macro with a variable isn't an error, and that there is some well-defined way to interpret such a program.
2020-02-21T21:48:30Z wasamasa: sure, try it in some other r7rs implementation
2020-02-21T21:48:44Z wasamasa: you might have become a member of the boring "I found a bug in Chibi Scheme" club
2020-02-21T21:49:16Z Oxyd: Well that's why I'm asking – to know how this is supposed to work in R7RS.
2020-02-21T21:49:24Z wasamasa: like me: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/pull/540
2020-02-21T21:49:47Z wasamasa: there's at least six more r7rs implementations you can try
2020-02-21T21:50:01Z wasamasa: personally, I believe it's a bad idea to rely on such behavior
2020-02-21T21:50:08Z wasamasa: but more power to you
2020-02-21T21:50:15Z Oxyd: Sure, but presumably R7RS is defined by r7rs.pdf and not by what a majority of implementations do.
2020-02-21T21:50:38Z wasamasa: even more power if you prove a majority of implementations wrong
2020-02-21T21:50:55Z wasamasa: go for it
2020-02-21T21:51:05Z Oxyd: Well that requires an understanding that I don't have, and I'm trying to acquire here. :P
2020-02-21T21:51:39Z wasamasa: don't let your dreams be memes
2020-02-21T21:52:23Z aeth: wasamasa: elisp and CL don't have define-syntax, they have defmacro, which might exist in Schemes as defmacro or define-macro. So define-syntax's rules don't really have an equivalent to elisp's
2020-02-21T21:52:55Z wasamasa: I present to you: https://github.com/ijp/mbe.el
2020-02-21T21:53:03Z wasamasa: now cower in fear
2020-02-21T21:53:09Z wasamasa: I miss ijp :<
2020-02-21T21:54:27Z aeth: wasamasa: heh, what's funny is that their trivial incf isn't as good as CL's trivial incf using define-modify-macro. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_2.htm
2020-02-21T21:54:41Z wasamasa: well, it's elisp
2020-02-21T21:55:02Z wasamasa: as technomancy put it, stunts done in elisp are like a dog walking on two legs
2020-02-21T21:55:14Z wasamasa: it's not cool because it's good, but because you didn't expect it to work at all
2020-02-21T21:55:38Z aeth: yeah, I tried that, except I tried to compile a Lisp to Brainfuck
2020-02-21T21:55:46Z aeth: I couldn't get past the string representation, stuff's hard without stacks or registers.
2020-02-21T21:56:02Z aeth: I mean array-string, as opposed to C-strings which are the only trivial data structure in brainfuck
2020-02-21T21:57:45Z wasamasa: I quite like how this trick is based on a 10-page paper
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2020-02-21T21:58:57Z wasamasa: it's not like syntax-rules is given nearly as much of an explanation in the standard, so I'll take anything telling you how you can get anywhere close
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2020-02-21T22:04:54Z Oxyd: Hm, Gauche does seem to accept that program.
2020-02-21T22:05:17Z wasamasa hands Oxyd a cookie for extraordinary bravery
2020-02-21T22:05:37Z wasamasa: you're going to need it to fix that bug
2020-02-21T22:06:16Z Oxyd: Also what about the general question of when expansion happens? Clearly it happens before processing the program because it's necessary to get a list of all top-level defines, which is necessary for mutually recursive lambdas, and it also clearly doesn't all happen before processing the program because syntax transformer names can be shadowed by defines.
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2020-02-21T22:34:53Z Oxyd: R6RS is way more explicit about this and actually defines something. In R6RS, at the top level, first macro definitions are processed with variable definitions and expressions collected and deferred, and when it reaches the end of the top-level, it expands the right-hand sides of defines and expressions, and puts all that into a letrec* form. Which makes sense but doesn't quite tell me whether it's
2020-02-21T22:34:55Z Oxyd: supposed to work the same way in R7RS or if there's supposed to be differences.
2020-02-21T22:35:05Z Oxyd: Seems to me that R7RS is perhaps a little bit … underspecified.
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2020-02-21T23:00:23Z jcowan: Note that mbe is not hygienic, because hygiene requires processing the whole program, not just macro definitions and calls.
2020-02-21T23:02:10Z jcowan: Although R7RS doesn't actually say so, the intention is that identifiers have only one binding (other than local bindings that shadow outer bindings): a variable, a syntax keyword, a record type.
2020-02-21T23:03:37Z jcowan: If that were not true, the meaning of an export declaration would be ambiguous.
2020-02-21T23:08:20Z Oxyd: Well it does explicitly specify what happens when a variable is defined whose name is already bound to a syntax keyword. And it makes sense to me because syntax keywords can also be imported, and you don't want to have to check all imported libraries for imported keywords whenever you type (define foo …).
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2020-02-21T23:26:27Z Oxyd: Also R6 is explicit about there being a single environment in which both variables and syntactic keywords are defined. R7 makes references to “syntactic environment” but doesn't seem to ever define what it means by that, which makes it sound like there's supposed to be separate environments for variables and for keywords.
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2020-02-22T03:26:48Z Riastradh: jcowan: Inconvenient as it is that `flush' suggests `discard down the toilet', do you have a suggestion for a better word that unambiguously means `empty the buffer by putting its contents where they need to go' as a verb?
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2020-02-22T03:41:31Z aeth: wow, I guess a buffer really is a lot like a toilet...
2020-02-22T03:42:26Z Riastradh: (actually, in a conscientious civilized society, the word `flush' as in `flush a buffer' is applicable to toilets too, because the waste doesn't just vanish; it has to go somewhere appropriate in a closed system to be decomposed and recycled into the environment)
2020-02-22T03:43:31Z friscosam: 'flush' means to rinse thoroughly though.  As in "flush all of the acid out of your eyes"
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2020-02-22T09:42:30Z lockywolf: can someone check (lset-union '(a b c) '(a b d)) on Chibi or me, please?
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2020-02-22T09:44:21Z lockywolf: Shan't it complain about '(a b c) not being a predicate?
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2020-02-22T10:06:17Z zig: apparantly there is three SRFI incoming
2020-02-22T10:15:49Z wasamasa: oh noes
2020-02-22T10:17:44Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: that is indeed curious, I can reproduce
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2020-02-22T10:21:33Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: want to join the boring "I found a bug in chibi" club?
2020-02-22T10:21:41Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: if not, I'll investigate
2020-02-22T10:24:12Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: anyway, it seems to be an edge case because you've supplied only one set to join
2020-02-22T10:24:20Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: if you supply two of them, you get the expected error
2020-02-22T10:28:12Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, I already asked on chibi's mailing list
2020-02-22T10:28:49Z lockywolf_: If you want to actually do the fix, that would be wonderful.
2020-02-22T10:29:02Z wasamasa: well, it would amount to adding type checks to all srfi-1 procedures
2020-02-22T10:29:20Z wasamasa: CHICKEN does this for example on the entirety of their core
2020-02-22T10:29:32Z lockywolf_: However, I am not sure this is "a bug" as I usually see it, because I don't think that srfi-1 specifies that errors must be reported.
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2020-02-22T10:31:10Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, if you can make chibi more user-friendly, you'd be a hero
2020-02-22T10:31:23Z wasamasa: I have my doubts that's their priority
2020-02-22T10:31:36Z wasamasa: but feel free to ask them whether they want type checks everywhere in core
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2020-02-22T14:28:06Z xuxx: letrec = I can put a function in the (name value) that I can call in the body ?
2020-02-22T14:33:35Z Oxyd: Sure. For example, (let ((f (lambda (x) (* 2 x)))) (f 4)) => 8
2020-02-22T14:34:13Z Oxyd: And the same for letrec.
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2020-02-22T14:39:02Z xuxx: I understood
2020-02-22T14:39:12Z xuxx: letrec create location before evaluate
2020-02-22T14:39:40Z xuxx: so I can create recursion in the (name value)
2020-02-22T14:39:44Z zig: yes
2020-02-22T14:40:03Z zig: it allows to define a recursive lambda.
2020-02-22T14:40:34Z xuxx: without letrec we call a lambda function that isn't bound to an id yet
2020-02-22T14:40:36Z xuxx: right ?
2020-02-22T14:41:02Z zig: I am not sure what you mean by "without letrec"
2020-02-22T14:41:18Z xuxx: if we use let for example
2020-02-22T14:41:30Z xuxx: or let*
2020-02-22T14:41:34Z zig: then the implementation should raise an error, i believe.
2020-02-22T14:41:39Z xuxx: y
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2020-02-22T16:04:53Z mdhughes: You could do (let ((foo #f) (bar #f)) (set! foo …) (set! bar …) <stuff with foo and bar>) but that's really ugly.
2020-02-22T16:06:14Z wasamasa: that's how one could implement letrec, no
2020-02-22T16:06:23Z mdhughes: But also, a lot of the time letrec is a sort of module system, hiding functions from outside. In a modern Scheme, you can just use a library/module and define at the top level, and not export them.
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2020-02-22T16:17:19Z jcowan: IMO type checking should be done outside the interpreter/compiler in a lint-like program.  In most Lisps the presence of static type checking does not mean the absence of dynamic type checking, although it may mean changing generic procedures into specific ones (fixnum or flonum arithmetic, e.g.) that can fail randomly if applied to the wrong type.
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2020-02-22T17:34:15Z oni-on-ion: https://blog.racket-lang.org/2020/02/racket-on-chez-status.html
2020-02-22T17:43:51Z jcowan: Cool.  I particularly like the idea of using an interpreter for unexported compile-time-only procedures; it's hardly worth compiling stuff you are going to discard at the end of the compilation.
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2020-02-22T22:51:43Z xuxx: (define (func x) x), is it a lambda expression ?
2020-02-22T22:53:41Z fizzie: It's equivalent to (define func (lambda (x) x)) which contains one, if that's what you mean.
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2020-02-23T00:17:03Z zaifir: xuxx: As fizzie said, that is indeed just syntactic sugar for binding `func' to a lambda.  A few Schemers, notably Kent Dybvig and Dan Friedman, eschew this "defun syntax" and always write (define f (lambda (x) ...)).
2020-02-23T00:17:58Z zaifir: But it seems most prefer the sugared form.
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2020-02-23T00:26:55Z oni-on-ion: i can appreciate the eschewing in the name of symmetricity and other ideals
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2020-02-23T00:42:18Z jcowan: That got big in JS too; I don't know why, or if there is any reason except fashion, but people write "var foo = function(...) {...}" instead of "function foo(...) {...}"
2020-02-23T00:42:40Z wasamasa: they discovered lisp-1
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2020-02-23T01:22:47Z fizzie: There's some actual differences between those two, like whether the function can refer to variables in the enclosing lexical scope (yes for the expression, no for the declaration), though I'd wager a guess many times people just do it out of habit.
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2020-02-23T04:22:28Z mdhughes: Not scoping, but function foo() has a name, foo=function() does not, both have a new "this". foo=()=>{} keeps local scoping and "this", like a lambda.
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2020-02-23T04:23:22Z mdhughes: And `class A { foo() {} }` has the class instance as "this", so there's a 4th form.
2020-02-23T04:23:48Z oni-on-ion: ah =)
2020-02-23T04:23:55Z oni-on-ion: wait, JS has class keywd now ?
2020-02-23T04:24:37Z mdhughes: The way I liked writing objects before class was var A={ foo: function() { } }, but that's just the second form, it doesn't have a formal this.
2020-02-23T04:24:47Z mdhughes: Yeah, ES6 is a fantastic improvement to the language.
2020-02-23T04:25:20Z mdhughes: All the nonsense you had to do for making prototypes and binding them correctly (and most people did wrong) is just in the language now.
2020-02-23T04:27:56Z oni-on-ion: hmmm. i was doing some ES6 with let, not sure how i missed the class keyword presence =)
2020-02-23T04:30:06Z mdhughes: What I want is the module system working in more browsers, and fix some edge cases of in-page script vs file script. Right now you can get proper modules in Node, but putting them in front end is a chore.
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2020-02-23T04:46:50Z oni-on-ion: still needs requirejs ?
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2020-02-23T06:01:39Z zaifir: Wow, a bunch of new SRFIs all at once.
2020-02-23T06:02:26Z zig: wdyt?
2020-02-23T06:02:33Z zig: it is interesting?
2020-02-23T06:02:58Z zig: I have no interest on the topic, so I am not in good position to tell.
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2020-02-23T21:56:38Z buggyschemeimple: anyone using racket here?
2020-02-23T21:57:09Z buggyschemeimple: i wanna use it specifically as r6rs scheme dialect without needing to specify #lang crap
2020-02-23T21:57:28Z buggyschemeimple: is there a way to do so in drracket ide
2020-02-23T21:57:40Z buggyschemeimple: i can choose r5rs as default language but not r6rs
2020-02-23T21:59:13Z oni-on-ion: not sure about racket. but, if you are restricting to or targeting a standard, it may not matter whch implementation ?
2020-02-23T22:01:34Z buggyschemeimple: im on windows and trust me i tried so many crazy combos: eclipse + kawa - (read) not working, emacs + chez (terrible experience), emacs + quack + chicken (buggy), emacs + WSL + guile (Unix - windows path translation craziness)
2020-02-23T22:01:48Z buggyschemeimple: I'm not even kidding, how do you code in scheme on windows
2020-02-23T22:03:10Z buggyschemeimple: i just need a damn editor, r6rs scheme repl, and sane shortcuts for evaluation
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2020-02-23T22:04:46Z wasamasa: racket is probably your best option
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2020-02-23T22:05:06Z wasamasa: and I have my doubts their channel will tell you something else than using #lang consistently
2020-02-23T22:05:12Z buggyschemeimple: how do I set r6rs as default racket language without needing to specify #lang at the beginning of source
2020-02-23T22:05:27Z buggyschemeimple: sorry but I'm ocd about it
2020-02-23T22:05:40Z wasamasa: they're equally ocd about requiring it, lol
2020-02-23T22:06:12Z buggyschemeimple: oh damn, okay, if it needs to be that way, i will use it
2020-02-23T22:06:15Z buggyschemeimple: i have no other option
2020-02-23T22:06:35Z buggyschemeimple: i will try emacs and racket combo, see how it goes
2020-02-23T22:06:41Z oni-on-ion: ouch. sorry to hear the windows situation. that puts a dent in my romance for scheme
2020-02-23T22:07:29Z buggyschemeimple: yeah, I actually had great experience on linux, emacs + geiser and guile/chicken/any other scheme, but windows support is terrible
2020-02-23T22:07:38Z buggyschemeimple: i had my hopes in kawa, but damn, it can't read from stdin
2020-02-23T22:08:41Z oni-on-ion: i had a feeling guile support on windows is the state it is, considering its heavy unixyness guts
2020-02-23T22:08:43Z wasamasa: I use winpty with mingw64-msys2 and CHICKEN
2020-02-23T22:08:54Z wasamasa: that helps with stdin and such
2020-02-23T22:09:09Z oni-on-ion: mingw is great. emacs is just about normal from there
2020-02-23T22:11:10Z wasamasa: there's some other weirdnesses to fix
2020-02-23T22:11:50Z oni-on-ion: racket is fully using chez now, btw
2020-02-23T22:12:01Z wasamasa: like, supposedly it lets you generate executables that run without mingw just fine, except I don't get that far with something as simple as readline
2020-02-23T22:12:12Z buggyschemeimple: tbh, i was kinda struck to find out there are so many issues with scheme implementations supporting windows platform, why is that
2020-02-23T22:12:59Z wasamasa: because nobody actually likes to work on windows, aside from windows people
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2020-02-23T22:13:04Z oni-on-ion: wasamasa, ah what prevents for further progress ?
2020-02-23T22:13:24Z wasamasa: as long as that holds true, your experience with software not actively developed against windows will suck
2020-02-23T22:13:48Z oni-on-ion: buggyschemeimple, relating. perhaps cross-compile from another OS is better suited. can do that from a VM too =)
2020-02-23T22:13:52Z wasamasa: it doesn't help that windows is super alien if you're used to the freedoms on everything unix-like
2020-02-23T22:14:11Z daviid: fwiw, I use msys2 and guile (msys2 has a guile-2.2.6 package, then I develop on linux, and only pull to test it's ok on win ... :)
2020-02-23T22:14:58Z oni-on-ion: oh wait what about WSL, wasamasa ?
2020-02-23T22:15:30Z wasamasa: doesn't really count ever since they've switched to the implementation strategy of just running a linux VM
2020-02-23T22:15:39Z buggyschemeimple: wsl is fine, i tried it but, but i need scheme for windows development, running wsl or linux vm is same
2020-02-23T22:16:12Z buggyschemeimple: wsl - linux sys calls are translated in win equivalents, wsl2 - linux vm
2020-02-23T22:16:45Z oni-on-ion: ahh, right. it makes linux bins
2020-02-23T22:17:06Z buggyschemeimple: so far racket seems most appealing since it can create windows executables
2020-02-23T22:17:08Z oni-on-ion: eh did not know they gone full VM. it seemed to work great previously ._.
2020-02-23T22:17:19Z oni-on-ion: also racket (and guile, btw) can do graphics in the repl.
2020-02-23T22:17:33Z oni-on-ion: i wonder if there are any 'commercial' scheme impls ?
2020-02-23T22:17:40Z wasamasa: chez
2020-02-23T22:17:53Z wasamasa: it existed before the migration to github
2020-02-23T22:17:58Z oni-on-ion: aha. did not know it was Com
2020-02-23T22:18:09Z buggyschemeimple: yea, but disk i/o was slow, so they changed it and did some magic with linux vm and plan9 filesys
2020-02-23T22:18:14Z wasamasa: you never asked yourself what the deal with scheme.com is
2020-02-23T22:19:18Z oni-on-ion: ehhh ms could have thought about providing both means
2020-02-23T22:19:59Z oni-on-ion: wasamasa, oh. heh - did not know this url. cisco the network folks ?
2020-02-23T22:20:02Z buggyschemeimple: cisco chez is "most serious scheme implementation" out there right? one big company behind scheme implementation
2020-02-23T22:20:19Z wasamasa: before that it was just mr. dybvig
2020-02-23T22:20:59Z oni-on-ion: so #scheme should be Chez =P
2020-02-23T22:21:02Z wasamasa: cisco merely happens to be his current employer
2020-02-23T22:21:26Z oni-on-ion: well ... according to latest bench, chez is not #1 in the tested peformances
2020-02-23T22:21:33Z oni-on-ion: wasamasa, ah.
2020-02-23T22:21:45Z wasamasa: you should read his papers
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2020-02-24T00:39:49Z jcowan: Cisco bought Chez so they could use it internally (why they didn't just buy a license I don't know).  But they never sold any licenses after that.  Eventually they agreed to open source it, and here we are.
2020-02-24T00:40:20Z zaifir: That's a strange story.
2020-02-24T00:40:54Z jcowan: Perhaps they bought it so that he would come along with it.
2020-02-24T00:41:27Z zaifir: Hah.
2020-02-24T00:41:58Z jcowan: Even if Chez isn't fastest in particular benchmarks, it's still in the top few.
2020-02-24T00:42:37Z jcowan: It's a highly tuned implementation.
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2020-02-24T04:56:32Z mdhughes: Also Chez's the fastest interactive or scripting environment, everyone else needs a compile phase to have decent runtime performance.
2020-02-24T04:57:46Z mdhughes: So in Chez I just write scripts, and they're fast. In Chicken, I write a script, and it's unbearably slow, then I run a compile which takes tens of seconds, then it runs OK, but slower than Chez which was already done at the task.
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2020-02-24T11:49:35Z jcowan: mdhughes: Chez is in fact compiling your script
2020-02-24T11:50:37Z mdhughes: Sure, it's just so fast you barely notice it. But you don't have to write chez-compile just to get good performance.
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2020-02-24T12:04:51Z sarna: mdhughes: you could make a wrapper script to compile and run a file :^)
2020-02-24T12:05:06Z sarna: though, both of the compilers I tried (chicken and gerbil) are kinda slow
2020-02-24T12:07:53Z mdhughes: You know what I don't even know is, does Chez cache the compile, or is it doing it every single time?
2020-02-24T12:08:17Z jcowan: Chicken compiles to C and then runs gcc or clang, so there's a lot of I/O going on.  Chez is what was once called a "checkout compiler"; it runs AOT to create compiled code directly in Chez's own memory space
2020-02-24T12:09:40Z mdhughes: Julia does JIT compiles, too, but A) It's much much slower, multiple seconds at launch sometimes, and B) It has a cache which doesn't really work worth a damn.
2020-02-24T12:09:45Z sarna: does Chez support anything else than R6RS?
2020-02-24T12:10:12Z mdhughes: It has its own extension library, and there's Arew to do R7 if you like that.
2020-02-24T12:10:33Z mdhughes: And Racket, now.
2020-02-24T12:10:50Z mdhughes: But I prefer to just (import (chezscheme)) if I can.
2020-02-24T12:10:53Z sarna: https://github.com/arew-scheme/arew-scheme this one you mean?
2020-02-24T12:10:57Z mdhughes: Yes
2020-02-24T12:11:05Z sarna: nice, thanks
2020-02-24T12:11:26Z sarna: racket still has a big startup time :^(
2020-02-24T12:11:37Z sarna: and "language-oriented development", eh
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2020-02-24T12:15:34Z mdhughes: In practice I find R6RS and a minimal amount of Chez's extensions, and rarely thunderchez libraries, lets me write any program. Stable things that work are good.
2020-02-24T12:15:50Z jcowan: sarna: All work in Lisp is to some extent language-oriented.  "Lisp programmers do not write Lisp; their macros do it for them."
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2020-02-24T12:16:16Z mdhughes: Especially now that I figured out how to use dylibs correctly.
2020-02-24T12:16:17Z sarna: jcowan: yeah, but racket feels like having to learn 20 schemes
2020-02-24T12:16:39Z sarna: to me at least
2020-02-24T12:16:59Z jcowan: Do you actually use all of the, though?
2020-02-24T12:17:33Z mdhughes: There's a *lot* of extra stuff in Racket. It gives me Java or C++ vibes. And it's all tangled up, with the object system required to use the GUI, etc.
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2020-02-24T12:19:01Z sarna: jcowan: don't know, haven't written enough Racket to have an answer for that :)
2020-02-24T12:20:25Z jcowan: Well, that's what happens when students are hacking on Racket year after year after year; bells, whistles, and gongs pile up.
2020-02-24T12:20:56Z jcowan: But as someone says, it would be absurd to say that /bin/sh was bloated because there are so many programs in /usr/bin.
2020-02-24T12:21:22Z jcowan: I think that was made wrt Emacs
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2020-02-24T12:25:48Z sarna: hm, true
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2020-02-24T12:37:47Z mdhughes: But bash is bloated, because it's been developed like a language+library instead of a shell.
2020-02-24T12:38:07Z mdhughes: Mind, I use zsh, which isn't much smaller, but it's better-written at least.
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2020-02-24T12:45:25Z tdammers: the "language-oriented programming" thing isn't even unique to lisp. we do a lot of that in haskell too - a very common approach to designing a program is to first write an EDSL to capture the problem domain, and then "trivially" solve the problem itself in that EDSL
2020-02-24T12:45:47Z tdammers: I like it quite a bit, and I catch myself trying to apply it in other languages too
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2020-02-24T14:07:46Z jcowan: Any kind of abstraction, even Basic subroutines, involves a certain amount of language design.  It's just that in a world where syntactic abstraction is rare we are used to the notion that a language has a fixed syntax.  Lisp doesn't.
2020-02-24T14:08:14Z jcowan: or more precisely: "two syntaxes, necessarily two languages"
2020-02-24T14:08:36Z jcowan: #lang extends this from syntax to lexical syntax: #lang algol60 is perhaps the most extreme case.
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2020-02-24T14:15:24Z tdammers: from a non-lisp perspective, the way the lisp world uses the word "syntax" is a bit confusing
2020-02-24T14:19:03Z jcowan: Scheme uses more standard terminology than CL
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2020-02-24T14:19:50Z jcowan: (if p (x) (y)) is just as much syntax as if (p) { x(); } else { y(); }
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2020-02-24T14:20:26Z jcowan: but CL only applies the word "syntax" to lexical syntax: ( and ), 234, #\x, etc.
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2020-02-24T14:38:17Z tdammers: what I mean is that when we say "define new syntax", we're talking about new ways of interpreting s-expression based data, not about new ways of interpreting blobs of bytes
2020-02-24T14:38:54Z ecraven: jcowan: but is it really? to me, the *semantics* of (if ..) are different than - say - (+ ..), but the *syntax* seems to be the same
2020-02-24T14:39:00Z tdammers: you can define (foo blah blah something) to have a custom meaning in lisp, but you can't (usually) change the language to accept something like, say, ])!: aaaaa**)( as valid syntax
2020-02-24T14:39:40Z Oxyd: There are two syntaxes. One tells you how to interpret a sequence of tokens as datum, the other tells you how to interpret a sequence of data as a program.
2020-02-24T14:39:47Z tdammers: yes
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2020-02-24T14:40:32Z tdammers: and outside the lisp word, the latter is usually grouped with "semantics", while in the lisp word, most people would just call it "syntax", and more or less ignore the other level of syntax below it (tokens -> data) entirely
2020-02-24T14:43:18Z jcowan: Well, no.
2020-02-24T14:44:43Z jcowan: There are indeed two levels.  In most languages, the character->token level is called "lexical syntax", as in "The lexical syntax of Java uses {} to group blocks of statements."
2020-02-24T14:45:09Z jcowan: The next level is called "syntax", as in the syntax of the if statement I showed above.
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2020-02-24T14:45:22Z jcowan: Scheme has extensible syntax but fixed lexical syntax (except on a few implementations.
2020-02-24T14:45:46Z jcowan: CL is flexible at both levels, but calls the lower level "syntax" and doesn't have a specific name for the next level.
2020-02-24T14:46:50Z Oxyd: I'm not sure I would call a Java block a part of its lexical syntax.
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2020-02-24T15:05:11Z tdammers: the way I see it, you have a lexer (bytes -> tokens), a parser (tokens -> syntax tree), and then an interpreter or generator (syntax -> machine code / behavior)
2020-02-24T15:05:53Z tdammers: "syntax" normally describes the rules of the parser (which syntax to generate for which combinations of tokens), a.k.a. the "lexical syntax"
2020-02-24T15:06:06Z tdammers: and in most languages, that's the only syntax we ever discuss
2020-02-24T15:06:54Z tdammers: but in a language that relies heavily on metaprogramming, syntax -> syntax transforms start being the real deal, and the tokens -> syntax part is just basic stuff that is hardly worth talking about
2020-02-24T15:07:56Z tdammers: so that's probably where the confusion originates
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2020-02-24T15:09:49Z tdammers: you have "syntax" the data structures describing the structure of a given code fragment (CST and AST), and you have "syntax" the rules telling you how to interpret a token stream as such data structures
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2020-02-24T15:22:17Z Oxyd: The thing is that in Scheme you interact with both syntaxes. (if p (x) (y)) is a list and you can indeed do listy things with it. (if p (x) (y) (z)) is also a list and you can still do listy things with it. It's only when you pass it to the evaluator that the second syntax comes into play, and at that level, one of those lists is syntactically valid and the other isn't.
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2020-02-24T15:53:27Z jcowan: Oxyd: I was saying that { and } is the Java lexical syntax for delimiting a block.
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2020-02-24T15:56:43Z Oxyd: You mean that they are tokens used in the block syntax?
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2020-02-24T15:58:58Z tdammers: Oxyd: my point is that you can interact with (if p (x) (y)) as a list in scheme, but not as a stream of bytes or characters
2020-02-24T16:01:09Z ecraven: hm.. I'm still not sure I see the difference... the compiler can special-case if, but it might just as well check that (my-foo a b c) is passed the right number of parameters.. how is that then not syntax, but if is?
2020-02-24T16:02:43Z Oxyd: (my-foo a b c) is the call syntax. So it is a syntax as well.
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2020-02-24T16:08:15Z tdammers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax
2020-02-24T16:08:17Z tdammers: maybe this helps
2020-02-24T16:08:28Z ecraven: but isn't the distinction between this and that rather arbitrary?
2020-02-24T16:10:22Z tdammers: or maybe this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax_(programming_languages)#Syntax_versus_semantics
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2020-02-24T16:20:21Z ecraven: "The syntax of a language describes the form of a valid program, but does not provide any information about the meaning of the program or the results of executing that program."
2020-02-24T16:20:39Z ecraven: to me, that means that (if foo bar baaz quux ...) is valid syntactically, but not semantically
2020-02-24T16:22:01Z ecraven: it seems a bit arbitrary to say "a bunch of special forms (if, set!, let, ...) and everything defined by define-syntax is syntax, everything else is semantics"
2020-02-24T16:22:53Z tdammers: right. but at the same time, distinguishing "meta" things from "not-meta" things kind of makes sense
2020-02-24T16:22:55Z gwatt: Is it less arbitary to say that in other languages that don't have the ability to define syntax transformers, like java?
2020-02-24T16:23:26Z tdammers: gwatt: the confusing thing is that if you use "syntax" to mean what it means to a java programmer, lisp doesn't have syntax transformers either
2020-02-24T16:23:28Z ecraven: to me, in other languages, it is cut much clearer
2020-02-24T16:23:37Z ecraven: to me, "syntax" means s-expressions
2020-02-24T16:23:48Z ecraven: so as long as it is a valid s-expression, the syntax is fine
2020-02-24T16:23:56Z Oxyd: So, “whatever read accepts”?
2020-02-24T16:24:01Z tdammers: that is, you cannot change the syntax itself (as in, the rules that determine well-formedness of source code), only the data structures that result from parsing valid syntax
2020-02-24T16:24:11Z tdammers: BUT
2020-02-24T16:24:21Z ecraven: Oxyd: to me, whatever read accepts is valid *syntax*, yes
2020-02-24T16:24:32Z ecraven: but I might be (and seemingly am) just wrong ;)
2020-02-24T16:24:50Z tdammers: ecraven: you're not wrong, it's just that there are two different meanings of the word "syntax" here
2020-02-24T16:24:55Z Oxyd: It's certainly correct on some level.
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2020-02-24T16:25:02Z ecraven: I don't quite see the other level :P
2020-02-24T16:25:33Z tdammers: the other level is that there is a second set of rules that takes s-expressions as input and produces program behavior
2020-02-24T16:25:37Z ecraven: I mean, I can (to me arbitrarily) define "I now call these syntax: these special forms and everything that is defined with define-syntax"
2020-02-24T16:25:46Z ecraven: tdammers: how is that not semantics?
2020-02-24T16:25:55Z mdhughes: I'm in the camp of octets->tokens is syntax, tokens->AST is parsing.
2020-02-24T16:26:31Z Oxyd: You could also view a Scheme interpreter as a black box and say that the input syntax is any valid UTF-8 stream and the rest is semantics.
2020-02-24T16:26:52Z gwatt: mdhughes: and working on the AST to generate a new AST?
2020-02-24T16:26:53Z tdammers: ecraven: I find it rather questionable myself, but if you look at lisp's history, it makes a little more sense. In a way, you can think of a lisp interpreter as a program that takes in s-expressions and transforms them into something more meaningful (which can then be interpreted)
2020-02-24T16:26:57Z mdhughes: Scheme is just unusual that syntax is nearly as trivial as FORTH or other "there is no way to get this wrong" syntax reader.
2020-02-24T16:27:33Z Oxyd: I think you're underestimating the reader a bit.
2020-02-24T16:27:35Z mdhughes: gwatt: That's a transformer, like XSLT (not a nice example, but the purest)
2020-02-24T16:27:41Z gwatt: ok
2020-02-24T16:27:57Z ecraven: Oxyd: you could, but the bytes->s-expression step to me seems like a good abstraction
2020-02-24T16:28:07Z tdammers: so you have the first level that goes "character streams -> s-expressions", and the rules for that are "syntax"; and then you have another level that goes "s-expressions -> other s-expressions, but these are ready for direct consumption by the evaluator"
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2020-02-24T16:28:18Z ecraven: the part where *some* s-expressions are arbitrarily treated specially seems less logically so to me
2020-02-24T16:28:19Z Oxyd: ecraven: Point is, there are multiple places where you can stop and say that everything above is semantics.
2020-02-24T16:28:26Z mdhughes: But we have these silly macro systems claiming to be "define-syntax", which muddles everything up.
2020-02-24T16:28:30Z tdammers: and that second rule set isn't really fundamentally different from the first. Bother are just mechanical transformations of data.
2020-02-24T16:28:56Z ecraven: Oxyd: OK, I understand that. thanks for bearing with me and explaining, all of you!
2020-02-24T16:29:09Z tdammers: then again, so are all the steps that follow, so I'm still inclined to consider the classic lisp interpretation of "syntax" a bad choice
2020-02-24T16:29:56Z ecraven: so that "second meaning" of syntax would be lambda, set!, let, if, quote, quasiquote, all predefined macros and everything defined with define-syntax and friends?
2020-02-24T16:30:04Z tdammers: yes
2020-02-24T16:30:51Z tdammers: and I think calling these "metaprogramming" would have been better
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2020-02-24T16:32:27Z tdammers: because that's what it is. you're not really introducing new parsing rules ("syntax"), you're just write code that, rather than being evaluated directly at the term level, outputs AST which gets injected into the program before evaluation
2020-02-24T16:33:31Z tdammers: apart from the "homiconic" thing, it's not so different from, say, C++ templates, Template Haskell, or even reflection in Java or C#
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2020-02-24T16:34:06Z ecraven: does anyone consider c++ templates "syntax" in any sense?
2020-02-24T16:35:29Z jcowan: How would you describe the rules saying what is and what is not a correct `cond`?
2020-02-24T16:35:40Z jcowan: I call that "the syntax of cond".
2020-02-24T16:36:31Z jcowan: "The syntax of cond is the identifier `cond` followed by zero or more clauses, each of which has a guard expression and any number of guarded expressions'.
2020-02-24T16:36:40Z mdhughes: That's semantics, or parsing, depending on where it happens.
2020-02-24T16:37:04Z mdhughes: grammar, in Human languages.
2020-02-24T16:37:20Z jcowan: The semantics of cond is "consult the guards in sequence, and the first guard that evaluates to true, evaluate the guarded expressions, and you're done"
2020-02-24T16:37:39Z ecraven: jcowan: I can agree with "the syntax of cond" just fine, but "cond is syntax" as a sentence doesn't make much sense to me
2020-02-24T16:37:44Z ecraven: (not that you said that ;)
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2020-02-24T16:38:01Z jcowan: There is also "the syntax of procedure calls"
2020-02-24T16:38:26Z ecraven: so, in essence, "procedure call syntax
2020-02-24T16:38:34Z ecraven: " is the norm, and define-syntax can be used to define any deviation
2020-02-24T16:38:36Z jcowan: Cond itself is a syntax keyword
2020-02-24T16:38:56Z mdhughes: cond before you evaluate it is just a sexpr. It just uses a different evaluator than a function call or quoted list.
2020-02-24T16:39:00Z jcowan: just as if is in C, Java, Cobol, etc.
2020-02-24T16:39:03Z ecraven: wouldn't you say cond is bound to a syntactic whatever?
2020-02-24T16:39:11Z jcowan: Syntactic transformer.
2020-02-24T16:39:39Z ecraven: keyword to me implies it is global and cannot be overridden
2020-02-24T16:39:39Z jcowan: So, the syntax of cond-expressions is part of the base syntax of Scheme
2020-02-24T16:40:18Z jcowan: Well, most languages don't have syntax extension, a fortiori no local syntactic keywords either.
2020-02-24T16:40:54Z mdhughes: No, it's part of the parser. You could build a cond statement AST in bytecode or C structures or whatever the impl uses, and it'll evaluate the same. No syntax.
2020-02-24T16:41:24Z Oxyd: Er, AST means abstract syntax tree. There's your syntax right there.
2020-02-24T16:41:48Z jcowan: The parser is what takes us from tokens to syntax trees (abstract or not)
2020-02-24T16:41:58Z jcowan: that's `read`
2020-02-24T16:42:04Z mdhughes: I know, it's built up a level from syntax
2020-02-24T16:42:39Z jcowan: Well, that's the CL terminology.
2020-02-24T16:43:03Z mdhughes: And nobody's super precise about it. I'm only picky because the compiler processes I learned made a hard distinction.
2020-02-24T16:43:24Z jcowan: In any case, I don't know what you mean by "S-expression".  Do you mean a sequence of characters satisfying certain rules, or a Scheme object with a particular structure?
2020-02-24T16:43:55Z mdhughes: The latter. It's some internal data structure. Ultimately bytes in RAM.
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2020-02-24T16:44:34Z mdhughes: You don't store a sexpr as a string, you store it as a cons list of pointers, probably.
2020-02-24T16:44:38Z Riastradh: ...maybe words sometimes have fuzzy meanings that vary a little bit depending on context, and good communication is about choosing them judiciously to express things clearly rather than fixating on demanding a standard precise formal definition of every word that works in all contexts...
2020-02-24T16:44:54Z oni-on-ion: sounds like programming.
2020-02-24T16:45:39Z mdhughes: Ugh, that stuff? Programming's the worst. More fun to argue about terms while waiting for a game to download.
2020-02-24T16:45:41Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression completely intertwingles the two meanings.  Historically it certainly meant the first definitions: there were S-expressions and M-expressions, but represented internally in the same way.
2020-02-24T16:45:54Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes ikr ^_^
2020-02-24T16:46:24Z oni-on-ion: why not use 'show' and get the chars
2020-02-24T16:47:11Z Riastradh: (Retrofitting a present choice of prescription about a word's definition to its historical use is an exercise in futility, but makes for interminable (and insufferable) arguments among pedants.)
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2020-02-24T17:51:40Z oni-on-ion: is anyone familiar with this? http://www.lambdanative.org/
2020-02-24T17:53:48Z jcowan: It's a repackaging of Gambit.
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2020-02-24T17:56:08Z oni-on-ion: ah. so vanilla gambit can do the same ?
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2020-02-24T18:26:44Z jcowan: I don't know how much they have added to it.
2020-02-24T18:27:03Z jcowan: We treat Gerbil as distinct from Gambit and Racket/CS as distinct from Chez
2020-02-24T18:27:21Z jcowan: Termite, too
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2020-02-24T18:32:34Z zig: And Arew distinct from Chez :p
2020-02-24T18:32:45Z zig: seriously it is not ready for prime time.
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2020-02-24T19:28:22Z mdhughes: I looked into lambdanative but couldn't get all the dependencies working. YMMV on chasing all those down. If it does work out, it'd be pretty fantastic to get all the xplat stuff. Not super enthused about doing raw OpenGL+whatever for input/audio, etc.
2020-02-24T19:30:45Z mdhughes: My motto with any system is: Things that are dull but work (on my machine) are better than amazing things that don't work (on my machine).
2020-02-24T19:36:23Z mdhughes: I think I'll get that on my tombstone. "Mark no longer works on his machine."
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2020-02-24T19:37:06Z jcowan chuckles
2020-02-24T19:37:24Z jcowan: "A feature that is not documented to work must be treated as if it were documented *not* to work."
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2020-02-24T19:47:27Z dpk: is there a good Scheme idiom for iterating over two lists at different speeds (depending on the contents of each list)?
2020-02-24T19:47:57Z dpk: further difficulty: i actually need to iterate in reverse order, but they're not long lists so i can just call reverse, it's fine
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2020-02-24T19:50:50Z dpk: suspect i'm just going to have to make liberal use of a homespun reduce function which calls take/drop
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2020-02-24T20:27:02Z jcowan: That's definitely a case for a let-loop
2020-02-24T20:27:32Z jcowan: (let loop ((this this) (that that) ... (loop (cdr this) (cdr that)) ...)
2020-02-24T20:27:44Z jcowan: s/cdr that/cddr that
2020-02-24T20:27:53Z jcowan: or whatever is needed
2020-02-24T20:31:02Z jcowan: dpk: ^^
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2020-02-25T00:15:05Z zaifir: It seems like there might be a Fold For That™.
2020-02-25T00:19:22Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, ah, lambdanative adds some cross-platform audio and graphics and input stuff. for games and similar applications
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2020-02-25T11:52:57Z mdhughes: Was looking for the Chez equivalent of optionals, and of course case-lambda is the solution, and explains why Dybvig prefers (define foo … to (define (foo) … : http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/papers/arity.ps
2020-02-25T11:54:38Z ecraven: I still think that case-lambda is too verbose for the simple and obvious cases :-/
2020-02-25T11:54:57Z mdhughes: The R7RS spec is incorrect or insufficient, tho. It leaves out the variable case, so you can't catch "rest".
2020-02-25T11:55:36Z mdhughes: It's the exact same, punctuation aside, as Erlang, Haskell, etc. pattern matching.
2020-02-25T11:56:21Z mdhughes: I do like the Chicken #!key hack, but it's not portable to anything.
2020-02-25T11:56:37Z ecraven: there's a few SRFIs for optionals
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2020-02-25T12:03:53Z mdhughes: There's a let-optionals* macro, but it's ugly for just a few positional options. And for keywords, an alist is saner.
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2020-02-25T13:35:31Z jcowan: mdhughes: Wait, what?
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2020-02-25T13:37:11Z mdhughes: The spec? Compare R7RS 4.29 with R6RS-lib 5.0
2020-02-25T13:37:53Z mdhughes: Dybvig's case-lambda allows a fallthru case like: (rest (list ’rest rest))))
2020-02-25T13:38:30Z jcowan: <formals> in case-lambda is exactly the same as in lambda, so (case-lambda ((foo bar) ...) ((foo bar . baz) ...) (all ...)) is perfectly good.
2020-02-25T13:39:28Z jcowan: "Syntax: Each <clause> is of the form (<formals> <body>), where <formals> and <body> have the same syntax as in a lambda expression."
2020-02-25T13:40:35Z mdhughes: R6RS: • ⟨Formals⟩ has the form ⟨variable⟩.
2020-02-25T13:43:01Z mdhughes: OK, found the equivalent in R7RS, 4.1.4, but that's not clear in case-lambda.
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2020-02-25T14:46:00Z jcowan: I don't see how the sentence I quoted above from 4.2.9 is unclear.
2020-02-25T14:55:16Z mdhughes: It doesn't mention that possibility, so you have to remember a use of lambda that's very uncommon from some ways back. And the example in R7RS removes the rest case.
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2020-02-25T15:05:10Z ecraven: (lambda x x) (aka `list') is uncommon?
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2020-02-25T15:14:03Z mdhughes: Yes? I vaguely know that definition probably from SICP, but that was 30+ years ago. I'd use list to make a list.
2020-02-25T15:16:10Z mdhughes: grepall "lambda [^(]"|less finds no matches in my code
2020-02-25T15:18:27Z mdhughes: There's some in thunderchez, for some metaprogramming hacks, I don't see any in "doing actual work" code.
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2020-02-25T15:38:48Z mdhughes: Different subject, is there a working SRFI-64 test runner that's more than the simple example? Or I have to write my own tools from stone age again?
2020-02-25T15:40:35Z mdhughes: (there is a SchemeUnit, which I may just use…)
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2020-02-25T16:48:41Z jcowan: I use it frequently when defining a function like that (like +) accepts arbitrarily many arguments and treats them more or less uniformly
2020-02-25T16:49:46Z jcowan: typically in the form (define (foo . x ) ...), which expands to (define foo (lambda x ...))
2020-02-25T16:50:21Z jcowan: My standard warning: don't write things like (define (foo . x) ... (apply foo (cdr x)) ...)
2020-02-25T16:51:04Z jcowan: it turns O(n) algorithms into O(n^2) except on Racket, because calls to foo copy the argument list.  I call this anti-pattern "variadic recursion".
2020-02-25T16:51:40Z zaifir: Yeah, that's a nasty trap.
2020-02-25T16:52:13Z zaifir: IMHO, it makes a good argument for immutable argument lists.
2020-02-25T16:52:35Z jcowan: It also applies to CL implementations, though the ANS allows an implementation not to copy it.
2020-02-25T16:52:55Z jcowan: It's part of a good argument for making Scheme pairs immutable, but it's too big a backward compatibility break.
2020-02-25T16:53:11Z zaifir: Right.
2020-02-25T16:53:34Z jcowan: Racket did it, but that's Racket, and they don't even provide an mpair library beyond mpair?, mcons, mcar, mcdr, mset-car!, mset-cdr!
2020-02-25T16:54:51Z jcowan: instead write (define (foo . x) (foo* x)) and then foo* can do the recursive work without allocation.
2020-02-25T16:55:28Z zaifir: It's pretty easy to work around.
2020-02-25T16:56:09Z zaifir: The (apply foo (cdr xs)) pattern of direct recursion always looked hacky to me.
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2020-02-25T16:59:51Z oni-on-ion: question: does this mean gerbil *and/or* gambit, or just gerbil? https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2020-02-25T17:06:16Z erkin: That's a good question.
2020-02-25T17:06:22Z erkin: Paging ecraven
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2020-02-25T17:14:27Z jcowan: I take it to mean "Gerbil running on Gambit".  In principle, Gerbil could run on other Schemes, as Termite does.
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2020-02-25T17:16:18Z jcowan: Gambit itself is listed as "gambitc"
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2020-02-25T17:19:03Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, that was my first feeling. but then there is no plain gambit, and i cant imagine gerbil being especially faster than gambit itself
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2020-02-25T17:59:06Z ecraven: oni-on-ion: "this"?
2020-02-25T17:59:34Z ecraven: (min gerbil gambit) is what is used in that graph (the entire graph is not ideal, but I haven't had time to rework it yet)
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2020-02-25T18:35:25Z belmarca: gerbil used to run on Racket
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2020-02-25T19:48:18Z oni-on-ion: belmarca, interesting
2020-02-25T19:49:02Z oni-on-ion: ecraven, the wording is what i was concerned about. and alright, i can be confident with plain gambit then =) cool.
2020-02-25T19:49:39Z ecraven: oni-on-ion: I think there are only 2 or 3 tests where gerbil is a tiny smudgeon faster than gambit, in general gambit itself is *really* fast ;)
2020-02-25T19:49:54Z ecraven: if you have any idea on how to show the results better, please tell me ;)
2020-02-25T19:50:13Z ecraven: the idea was that having gambit and gerbil compete wouldn't be useful, as they are the same system, in some ways
2020-02-25T19:50:39Z ecraven: so worst-case, they would each "win" half the time. thus they were "unified"..
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2020-02-25T19:56:42Z oni-on-ion: hmm. i see =) i think it is perfect the way it is - maybe "gerbil&gambit" ? the slash got me feeling like GNU/Linux
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2020-02-25T19:59:56Z ecraven: ideally, everything should be much more interactive, and let the user choose in which way to display the results
2020-02-25T20:00:13Z ecraven: but that's for in a few months, when real life gets less urgent ;)
2020-02-25T20:01:21Z oni-on-ion: true true. thanks for the hard work btw =) and, interesting to see the current status from the last time i seen it, where chez was on top (when it was first announced for racket)
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2020-02-25T21:00:31Z samth: jcowan: racket provides a much more extensive mpair library than you suggest https://docs.racket-lang.org/compatibility/mlists.html
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2020-02-25T21:21:02Z jcowan: samth: Thanks, didn't know about that one.
2020-02-25T21:21:41Z jcowan: Not exactly SRFI-1, however
2020-02-25T21:29:58Z samth: jcowan: there is also https://docs.racket-lang.org/r6rs/R6RS_Libraries.html?q=r6rs#%28mod-path._rnrs%2Flists-6%29 which operates on mutable lists
2020-02-25T21:32:49Z jcowan nods
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2020-02-25T22:38:01Z aeth: In case anyone here isn't in #lisp or didn't read #lisp... well I can't really rewrite literally everything I wrote in #lisp but essentially, I'm going to finally be announcing my ~5 year side side side project of my Scheme (written in CL) on the 29th.
2020-02-25T22:39:16Z aeth: Well, I mean "announced", but it's not a very secret secret since it's come up over the years when I've had time to put into it, and, I mean, it has come up again now.
2020-02-25T22:40:25Z aeth: I'm writing a pattern matching language for the reader so I can have a more complete (and more conforming) reader than I have written in the past. Then I'll do a continuation passing style transformation. Then it's just a matter of whatever I can fit in before the 29th. It won't be complete, and it might not have hygienic macros on the 29th because I can't miss having a leap day as a "birthday"
2020-02-25T22:41:12Z oni-on-ion: ohh interesting! looking forward to checking it out aeth .
2020-02-25T22:42:38Z aeth: I think there's good odds that I'll beat r7rs-large, I guess. Since my initial concept was at the same time as r7rs-small (mid 2013), I don't think I would have expected either r7rs-large or my r7rs Scheme to be this late...
2020-02-25T22:43:17Z aeth: Although to be fair this is more of a side side side project so no wonder it's late.
2020-02-25T22:43:27Z Oxyd: Does it do something special?
2020-02-25T22:44:17Z aeth: Oxyd: Compiling a Scheme to CL means that when SBCL is the host, then it might be the fastest Scheme implementation, while outsourcing most of the optimization work to the host compiler. Compiling to C isn't as straightforward here because of the semantics mismatch between the two languages.
2020-02-25T22:44:47Z Oxyd: Ah, so it compiles to CL S-expressions?
2020-02-25T22:45:13Z aeth: Oxyd: Compiling Scheme to CL also means that you can (near) trivially wrap any library from Quicklisp to call such libraries from within Scheme (assuming no code-walking macros), making it have among the largest potential library count. I mean, yeah, sure a JVM Scheme accesses a larger ecosystem, but again a semantics mismatch means that wrapping the libraries is less useful/trivial.
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2020-02-25T22:46:16Z aeth: Oxyd: Yes, it uses CL s-expressions (but not 100% trivially wrapped, e.g. (car '()) in Scheme is an error and (car nil) in CL is nil) and CL lambdas.
2020-02-25T22:46:28Z aeth: (The CL lambdas also have to be CPS transformed, so that's also not 1:1)
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2020-02-25T22:50:58Z luni: will have call/cc the same behaviour as in Scheme?
2020-02-25T22:52:31Z aeth: luni: It will have to in order to be a conforming r7rs
2020-02-25T22:52:51Z luni: aeth: ok...
2020-02-25T22:53:00Z aeth: luni: The interesting stuff won't be available on launch, though. The interesting stuff being a complete CL wrapper including wrappers for things like MAKE-HASH/GETHASH as well as MAKE-ARRAY/AREF. It won't take too much work, though
2020-02-25T22:53:06Z aeth: LOOP on the other hand... now that will be "fun"
2020-02-25T22:53:16Z aeth: Macros can't just be wrapped, they have to be rewritten. So... heh.
2020-02-25T22:53:36Z aeth: I will absolutely have to have my own "CL conforming" LOOP written from scratch as a Scheme macro as part of the CL package.
2020-02-25T22:58:55Z jcowan: Make it a SRFI so it can get into the Amber or Yellow Editions.  Currently we have Riastradh's foof-loop, Chibi loop, SRFI 42
2020-02-25T23:00:30Z luni: yes... more SRFI are available more used maybe it will be
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2020-02-25T23:02:31Z jcowan: The paradox of choice bites hard on R7RS-large votes, however
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2020-02-25T23:03:30Z luni: simplicity, clarity, completeness... as opposed to other languages
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2020-02-25T23:10:01Z aeth: jcowan: what is the percentage progress for r7rs-large?
2020-02-25T23:10:41Z jcowan: Hmm.  Things get added over time, but I can take a snapshot
2020-02-25T23:11:03Z aeth: jcowan: As for my cl-loop, the issue with it is that it's fairly implementation specific. In CL, LOOP accepts symbols from every package. Scheme afaik doesn't have symbol (namespace) packages, but it still has a symbol vs. keyword distinction (with 3 different common keyword syntaxes)
2020-02-25T23:11:17Z aeth: So with a cl-loop, it needs to be able to work on symbols and keywords
2020-02-25T23:11:51Z aeth: i.e. (loop repeat 10 do (display "Hello\n")) and (loop :repeat 10 :do (display "Hello\n")) while other Schemes might have repeat: or #:repeat
2020-02-25T23:12:49Z jcowan: technically foo:repeat, bar:repeat, etc. should work too
2020-02-25T23:12:58Z aeth: yes, in CL
2020-02-25T23:13:14Z aeth: Or in a fully compatible Scheme implementation of it
2020-02-25T23:13:14Z jcowan: 16 libraries already passed
2020-02-25T23:14:36Z aeth: jcowan: Anyway, CL's LOOP has stuff like NCONC and NCONCING that are CLisms that Schemers might oppose in a SRFI, but I intend to support them even though you never see it in CL code because the idea is for 1:1 porting
2020-02-25T23:17:17Z jcowan: 143 proposed libraries, of which 43 have at least one option available as a SRFI
2020-02-25T23:18:21Z jcowan: add 4 to that for low-level syntaxes which are defined outside a SRFI
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2020-02-25T23:18:51Z jcowan: deduct 2 for which there is not even a pre-SRFI
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2020-02-25T23:19:17Z TempeVolcano: Hello, when I try to use trace to trace a function I get this error.
2020-02-25T23:19:51Z jcowan: so everything is pretty well specified, but most things need implementations to pass the SRFI process, and that's the main delaying factor right now
2020-02-25T23:20:17Z TempeVolcano: Oh crap I lost the book mark to where you post code, can someone give it to me again?
2020-02-25T23:21:25Z jcowan: to ballot the Orange Docket 12 implementations are needed, for example, although the Amber Docket is already fully implemented
2020-02-25T23:22:10Z jcowan: Currently I'm working on bitvectors, which has the most procedures of any Orange Docket pre-SRFI, though most of them are wrappers over bytevectors.
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2020-02-25T23:25:48Z TempeVolcano: I get the error when trying to use trace.
2020-02-25T23:25:49Z TempeVolcano: https://paste.debian.net/1132267/
2020-02-25T23:26:37Z TempeVolcano: I'm using the "simply-scheme" development environment .
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2020-02-25T23:35:19Z TempeVolcano: Can anyone help
2020-02-25T23:35:26Z TempeVolcano: Or know why I can't use trace.
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2020-02-25T23:39:12Z wasamasa: try #racket
2020-02-25T23:44:12Z TempeVolcano: Yes I tried that but then some of the other functions that I was using weren't defined anymore.  Apparently it's a bug at it was fixed here.
2020-02-25T23:44:47Z TempeVolcano: https://github.com/dyoo/simply-scheme/blob/master/simply-scheme.rkt
2020-02-25T23:44:53Z TempeVolcano: But how do I load that?
2020-02-25T23:45:52Z wasamasa: I mean, ask the #racket channel
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2020-02-26T01:43:43Z faLUCE: hello. How can I execute   (display "foobar") (set! n (+ 1 n))   three times?
2020-02-26T01:47:06Z zaifir: faLUCE: (for-each (lambda (_) (display "foobar") (set! n (+ 1 n))) (make-list 3)) works, even if it isn't astoundingly elegant.
2020-02-26T01:47:18Z belmarca: (let lp ((i 0)) (if (< i 3) (begin (display "foobar") (set! n (+ 1 n)) (lp (+ 1 i)))))
2020-02-26T01:47:46Z belmarca: assuming n is defined
2020-02-26T01:48:03Z belmarca: look up "named let"
2020-02-26T01:48:04Z faLUCE: which one is the most elegant?
2020-02-26T01:48:24Z belmarca: they work different
2020-02-26T01:48:44Z faLUCE: thanks
2020-02-26T01:48:46Z faLUCE: both
2020-02-26T01:48:50Z belmarca: for this particular use case, I would use a named let.
2020-02-26T01:49:20Z belmarca: but zaifir's choice would be better to go through a list
2020-02-26T01:50:13Z zaifir: The for-each trick simply uses the list as a counter.  The index isn't used, so why bother with it?
2020-02-26T01:50:49Z belmarca: search for : "named let", "tail recursion", "for-each"
2020-02-26T01:50:55Z zaifir: What we really want is some procedure (do-n-times n proc).  Easy enough to define.
2020-02-26T01:51:51Z belmarca: it's a matter of choice, both are fine
2020-02-26T01:52:31Z belmarca: those lets are usually faster running in a gambit repl, so I got used to doing it that way...
2020-02-26T01:53:48Z zaifir: When n is *much* bigger than 3, efficiency might become a concern.
2020-02-26T01:55:23Z belmarca: for-each is about 236x slower in the gambit interpreter for 10000 rounds
2020-02-26T01:55:36Z belmarca: that doesn't mean anything really
2020-02-26T01:58:21Z zaifir: It's probably possible in many, many cases to get better performance by rewriting things as monolithic tail-call loops.  Unfortunately, this costs you expressivity; you end up writing in the "functional assembly language" of direct recursion.
2020-02-26T02:00:58Z belmarca: which is why I like this language... I can do either.
2020-02-26T02:03:44Z zaifir: Scheme is indeed super flexible.
2020-02-26T02:06:54Z oni-on-ion: i wonder if it is a girls name or a boys name? =P i go back and forth pronouncing it "shheem" and "skeem". regardless, she really is great.
2020-02-26T02:08:01Z oni-on-ion: belmarca, there are no "list comprehension" style way to do this? counters =(
2020-02-26T02:09:20Z belmarca: oni-on-ion in gerbil: (for (i (in-range 3)) (displayln 'foobar) (set! n (1+ n)))
2020-02-26T02:09:39Z oni-on-ion: ah there we go. ^_^
2020-02-26T02:10:15Z belmarca: those should be equivalent to named lets in speed when compiled but I've sometimes rewritten them to named lets to gain speed in the interpreter.
2020-02-26T02:10:22Z zaifir: belmarca: Does gerbil allow for (_ (in-range 3)) ?
2020-02-26T02:10:40Z belmarca: #t
2020-02-26T02:10:49Z zaifir: Well, there you go.
2020-02-26T02:11:29Z oni-on-ion: ahh. thinking i should just jump to gerbil instead of stopping at vanilla gambit first
2020-02-26T02:11:39Z belmarca: it depends on your needs.
2020-02-26T02:11:42Z zaifir: SRFI 64 gives us (do-ec (:range i 0 2) ...)
2020-02-26T02:11:56Z zaifir: Err, just (:range i 2)
2020-02-26T02:12:50Z oni-on-ion: hyper fast realtime 3d/sim stuff with C things. gambit is probably just fine
2020-02-26T02:13:02Z zaifir: faLUCE's example is an unusual case, though, since the counter is irrelevant and the code is called for its effects.
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2020-02-26T02:13:20Z belmarca: gerbil _is_ gambit in that sense, it won't be any slower
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2020-02-26T02:14:03Z belmarca: I never read srfi64
2020-02-26T02:14:56Z ski:   (loop ((for _ (up-from 0 (to 3))))
2020-02-26T02:15:02Z ski:     (displayln 'foobar)
2020-02-26T02:15:07Z ski:     (set! n (1+ n)))
2020-02-26T02:16:14Z ski . o O ( "foof-loop: A Simple, Extensible Scheme Looping Facility" <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.txt>,<https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.scm> )
2020-02-26T02:16:16Z oni-on-ion: belmarca, yeah i know. but when it has nice uhh conveniences as above
2020-02-26T02:16:17Z zaifir: The war of the loop/comprehension macros has begun^H^H^H^H resumed.
2020-02-26T02:16:39Z Riastradh: No it hasn't.  Everyone else lost to foof-loop; they just haven't admitted it yet.
2020-02-26T02:16:59Z belmarca: oni-on-ion yes, it's meta on top of gambit.
2020-02-26T02:17:01Z belmarca: well, scheme.
2020-02-26T02:17:17Z oni-on-ion: well. if we are talking LOOP, i must ask. does gambit accept "keyword:" ? like chicken and guile does by default
2020-02-26T02:17:21Z zaifir: rudybot: swat Riastradh
2020-02-26T02:17:21Z rudybot waves his Palm of Slapping® threateningly at Riastradh
2020-02-26T02:17:25Z belmarca: #!key
2020-02-26T02:17:31Z oni-on-ion: belmarca, true @ gerbil.
2020-02-26T02:18:16Z belmarca: (define (myfun a #!key (b 0)) (+ a b))
2020-02-26T02:18:43Z belmarca: in gerbil: (def (myfun a b: (b 0)) (+ a b))
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2020-02-26T02:19:08Z ski notes the "Use of Assignment" section
2020-02-26T02:19:25Z oni-on-ion: eh oh ahhh
2020-02-26T02:19:34Z belmarca: foof-loop,nice.
2020-02-26T02:19:43Z oni-on-ion: (keyword->string #!key) => KEYWORD expected
2020-02-26T02:19:52Z belmarca: (keyword->string kw:)
2020-02-26T02:20:24Z belmarca: #!key (and #!optional) are extensions to define
2020-02-26T02:20:32Z oni-on-ion: yeah!! just tested it. awesome. that is really important to me (long ago i came from objective-c, and smalltalk)
2020-02-26T02:20:45Z belmarca: see http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit.html#Extensions-to-standard-special-forms
2020-02-26T02:20:46Z oni-on-ion: almost happy to see that :key gives me "Unbound variable :key" =)
2020-02-26T02:20:52Z oni-on-ion: (and also, i come from:  <-- english. =)
2020-02-26T02:21:01Z oni-on-ion: found here http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit.html#Keyword-syntax
2020-02-26T02:21:09Z oni-on-ion: oh. thanks =)
2020-02-26T02:21:15Z belmarca: and cons.io for gerbil doc.
2020-02-26T02:21:27Z oni-on-ion: ahh i see, did not know about #! special syntax. cool =)
2020-02-26T02:23:18Z oni-on-ion: i have gerbil built from git, working, but i will avoid as many "transpilation" layers as i can for now
2020-02-26T02:23:34Z oni-on-ion: (porting code from ocaml, which is from haskell, which was from objc, which was from c. =)
2020-02-26T02:24:18Z oni-on-ion: one more newbie question if that is okay. in gambit/gerbil interpreter, can i disasm a procedure and see the C?
2020-02-26T02:24:19Z belmarca: you should build gerbil with gambit release 4.9.3 to make sure, I haven't tested with gambit@HEAD. gambit itself compiles fine @HEAD
2020-02-26T02:24:35Z belmarca: you can compile and keep c/asm
2020-02-26T02:24:41Z belmarca: or scheme
2020-02-26T02:25:15Z belmarca: this is something I want to know as well, I will ask.
2020-02-26T02:25:21Z oni-on-ion: my gambit src has a .git but i am not sure if i got it as @HEAD from github or not. it says 4.9.3 though
2020-02-26T02:25:52Z belmarca: gsc -v will say 4.9.3 but checkout the release tag. maybe it works, maybe it doens't...
2020-02-26T02:26:03Z oni-on-ion: i was looking at this "beautiful" thing, which chicken has in a similar form, as well (and german Smalltalk/X had it too, inline C) : http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit.html#C_002dinterface
2020-02-26T02:26:07Z belmarca: v4.9.3 20180930122740
2020-02-26T02:26:24Z oni-on-ion: ah yes, mine says the same
2020-02-26T02:26:28Z belmarca: oni-on-ion it is nice to work with.
2020-02-26T02:26:44Z belmarca: you can get started really fast.
2020-02-26T02:27:13Z belmarca: I know you can generate machine code from the repl and use that as procedures
2020-02-26T02:27:15Z oni-on-ion: awesome! finally i can get going on my ambitious project. spent a lot of time researching platforms/langs the past while.
2020-02-26T02:27:23Z belmarca: not sure if you can disassemble live
2020-02-26T02:28:29Z oni-on-ion: i know C very well, and similar to how SBCL users disasm into actual assembly to see what is going on, i figure i can really quickly get into deep understanding without the mysteries and abstract ideals of CL land
2020-02-26T02:28:34Z belmarca: well I'm obviously biased towards gerbil/gambit, others might have other suggestions, but it is fast, compiles to C (actually has multiple backends, python, go, ruby, even direct x86)
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2020-02-26T02:30:18Z oni-on-ion: gambit is definately my choice for schemes. it can also do emscripten
2020-02-26T02:31:05Z oni-on-ion: i was spending time with a lot of other langs (julia, ocaml, prolog, CL, etc. already had my time with erlang and haskell)
2020-02-26T02:31:26Z oni-on-ion: compiling gerbil@HEAD to see if it runs , it did a few days ago
2020-02-26T02:31:38Z belmarca: it does
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2020-02-26T02:31:48Z belmarca: it actually has bugfixes for the new module system
2020-02-26T02:31:56Z belmarca: so you should use that if you're using gambit modules.
2020-02-26T02:32:41Z belmarca: oh gerbil, I thought gambit.
2020-02-26T02:32:43Z oni-on-ion: ah ok. just that you werent sure if it worked with gambit@head ?
2020-02-26T02:32:57Z oni-on-ion: ah. modules, i am not sure.
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2020-02-26T02:33:25Z belmarca: sorry: I am not sure that gerbil@HEAD will work with gambit@HEAD.
2020-02-26T02:33:52Z belmarca: I use gambit@v4.9.3 for gerbil, and gambit@HEAD for pure gambit
2020-02-26T02:35:09Z oni-on-ion: ahh, right. i think my gambit is @head so i am trying that now with gerbil @head. not that i have any tests for it, but it did run a couple days ago with this currents etup
2020-02-26T02:35:12Z oni-on-ion: current setup*
2020-02-26T02:35:25Z belmarca: you can run gerbil's tests
2020-02-26T02:35:44Z belmarca: if you have specific gerbil questions you can ask in #gerbil-scheme
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2020-02-26T02:36:17Z belmarca: both projects use gitter as well.
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2020-02-26T02:40:16Z belmarca: oni-on-ion use "gsc -target x86-64 -verbose foo.scm" to see the generated asm from gambit's native backend
2020-02-26T02:42:15Z oni-on-ion: ok cool. i tried just #gerbil =) its still compiling. its got a lot of sfri's
2020-02-26T02:42:20Z oni-on-ion: srfi**
2020-02-26T02:43:27Z belmarca: yes. it takes about 17mins on my laptop
2020-02-26T02:43:59Z belmarca: you don't need to rebuild everything for every commit. you could build only the stdlib
2020-02-26T02:47:01Z oni-on-ion: hm yeah. only 5 files have changed. ah well, letting it run
2020-02-26T02:49:44Z oni-on-ion: btw, belmarca , have you seen lambdanative at all? built on gambit, as i learned #here yesterday
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2020-02-26T02:54:02Z belmarca: I know about it but never used it
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2020-02-26T02:56:58Z oni-on-ion: Gerbil v0.16-DEV-491-adfhaoiuehfiauhdfiausdf on Gambit v4.9.3
2020-02-26T02:57:11Z Fare: I just ran benchmarks with both -O1 and -O2.
2020-02-26T02:57:22Z Fare: It turns out, which wins depends on the benchmark
2020-02-26T02:57:51Z Fare: Often -O1 wins, by up to 17%, but sometimes -O2 wins, once by up to 43%
2020-02-26T02:58:07Z Fare: Sorry, that was a Gambit benchmark
2020-02-26T02:58:23Z oni-on-ion: hmmm. that is disheartening. when -O goes backward than expected =(
2020-02-26T03:01:58Z belmarca: Fare try out the native backend
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2020-02-26T03:05:37Z Fare: But -Os seems to win against both -O1 and -O2 more often than not.
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2020-02-26T03:07:53Z oni-on-ion: s? never seen that
2020-02-26T03:11:36Z belmarca: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-9.2.0/gcc/Optimize-Options.html#Optimize-Options
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2020-02-26T03:14:19Z oni-on-ion: ahh, cool =) surprised i have never seen it. remembering the days of -O6
2020-02-26T03:15:32Z oni-on-ion: belmarca, tried the -verbose command there, can't find x86-64 (or x86_64) target. yes that is my host
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2020-02-26T03:18:17Z oni-on-ion: belmarca, works with 'gsc -verbose -keep-c test.scm' =)
2020-02-26T03:19:26Z oni-on-ion: not as elegant as per-procedure in repl, but it should be fine for now. won't need it forever, just to see what goes on in C with some complicated scheme stuff
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2020-02-26T03:21:00Z belmarca: you should pop in their gitter for these questions, or open an issue if it is a bug
2020-02-26T03:21:18Z belmarca: https://gitter.im/gambit
2020-02-26T03:21:28Z belmarca: i have yet to try the native backend
2020-02-26T03:27:29Z oni-on-ion: native - the compiler? are you just using interpreted?
2020-02-26T03:28:43Z belmarca: a backend is a target for compilation
2020-02-26T03:28:56Z belmarca: default is scheme->c->binary
2020-02-26T03:28:56Z oni-on-ion: ah thanks. never used gitter before, it looks locked.
2020-02-26T03:29:01Z oni-on-ion: right
2020-02-26T03:29:05Z belmarca: (you need to login with github)
2020-02-26T03:29:17Z oni-on-ion: i did. =) i have the julia gitter open, and can talk there
2020-02-26T03:29:18Z belmarca: native backend is scheme->x86_64
2020-02-26T03:29:36Z belmarca: https://gitter.im/gambit/gambit
2020-02-26T03:29:37Z belmarca: sorry
2020-02-26T03:29:51Z oni-on-ion: ohhhh. did not know about multiple backends. seems to be not fully documented, this thing
2020-02-26T03:30:07Z oni-on-ion: ah! got it. thanks =)
2020-02-26T03:30:10Z belmarca: if you are serious about your project you must start reading the mailing list archives
2020-02-26T03:30:30Z belmarca: e.g.: site:Ahttps://mailman.iro.umontreal.ca/pipermail/gambit-list/ native backend
2020-02-26T03:32:01Z oni-on-ion: i will join it. have not been using email a lot. and is gambit in montreal? that is nearby. =)
2020-02-26T03:32:41Z belmarca: it is developed at université de montréal by marc feeley.
2020-02-26T03:33:02Z belmarca: anyway gnite
2020-02-26T03:33:14Z oni-on-ion: nice. thank you so much for your help brother
2020-02-26T03:34:02Z belmarca: 👍
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2020-02-26T04:41:06Z jules`: why does my chez scheme no longer understand fork-thread
2020-02-26T04:41:23Z jules`: keeps saying variable is not bound
2020-02-26T04:41:36Z jules`: its not variable!!! its a built-in function call!!
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2020-02-26T04:54:41Z jcowan: In Scheme as in JavaScript, functions that can be called by name are bound to variables: if you look at the value of "car", for example, it will give you some sort of (typically unreadable) object.
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2020-02-26T04:56:42Z jules`: yeah but if i type in car I get <procedure_car>
2020-02-26T04:57:05Z jules`: if I type in fork-thread i get varaiable fork-thread is unbound
2020-02-26T04:57:09Z Riastradh: I am not a Church numeral; I am a free variable!
2020-02-26T04:57:28Z jules`: i would expect it to say <procedure fork-thread>
2020-02-26T04:58:21Z jules`: should I rebuild chez, did my install break?
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2020-02-26T05:12:02Z oni-on-ion: that would be strange, admin privelage ?
2020-02-26T05:15:27Z jules`: no clue
2020-02-26T05:17:12Z oni-on-ion: to affect your install
2020-02-26T05:18:29Z oni-on-ion: works here on my chez, 9.5.1
2020-02-26T05:18:34Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2020-02-26T05:18:36Z oni-on-ion: (as you described it)
2020-02-26T05:18:46Z jules`: thanks for checking
2020-02-26T05:18:53Z jules`: i'm at a loss for what to do
2020-02-26T05:19:05Z oni-on-ion: perhaps its loading some config ?
2020-02-26T05:19:13Z oni-on-ion: --boot loading boot file?
2020-02-26T05:19:34Z jules`: I'm launching a fresh terminal
2020-02-26T05:19:34Z oni-on-ion: i've just used 'scheme' from bash
2020-02-26T05:19:39Z jules`: and jut called scheme from bash
2020-02-26T05:19:44Z oni-on-ion: ah hm. check your environment paths perhaps
2020-02-26T05:19:45Z oni-on-ion: yeah =)
2020-02-26T05:19:50Z jules`: how do i do that
2020-02-26T05:20:23Z oni-on-ion: threads could be disabled ?
2020-02-26T05:21:03Z jules`: that's interesting, how would I know?
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2020-02-26T05:21:40Z jules`: libary-directories returns (("." . "."))
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2020-02-26T05:21:57Z jules`: and library-list returns ((rnrs) (chezscheme) (scheme) (rnrs conditions) (rnrs files)
2020-02-26T05:21:57Z jules`:  (rnrs base) (rnrs syntax-case) (rnrs exceptions)
2020-02-26T05:21:57Z jules`:  (rnrs lists) (rnrs bytevectors) (rnrs control)
2020-02-26T05:21:57Z jules`:  (rnrs unicode) (rnrs enums) (rnrs r5rs) (rnrs eval)
2020-02-26T05:22:00Z jules`:  (rnrs hashtables) (rnrs sorting) (rnrs programs)
2020-02-26T05:22:03Z jules`:  (rnrs mutable-pairs) (rnrs mutable-strings) (rnrs io ports)
2020-02-26T05:22:06Z jules`:  (rnrs io simple) (rnrs arithmetic flonums)
2020-02-26T05:22:09Z jules`:  (rnrs arithmetic bitwise) (rnrs arithmetic fixnums)
2020-02-26T05:22:13Z jules`:  (rnrs records syntactic) (rnrs records procedural)
2020-02-26T05:22:14Z jules`:  (rnrs records inspection) (chezscheme csv7) (scheme csv7))
2020-02-26T05:22:18Z jules`:  
2020-02-26T05:22:22Z jules`: with chezscheme being what export fork-thread
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2020-02-26T05:22:28Z jules`: *exports
2020-02-26T05:23:31Z oni-on-ion: hmm i got the same list
2020-02-26T05:25:50Z jules`: trying to think of what could have changed in the last week
2020-02-26T05:26:06Z jules`: oh well, thanks for taking some time on it
2020-02-26T05:28:15Z oni-on-ion: hmm. ok, hope you figure it out =)
2020-02-26T05:28:50Z jules`: i can't think of anything to try but rebuilding
2020-02-26T05:29:01Z jules`: tried a reboot
2020-02-26T05:29:10Z jules`: tried explicitly import chezscheme
2020-02-26T05:32:02Z oni-on-ion: very strange. reinstall?
2020-02-26T05:32:19Z oni-on-ion: is this you? https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/f9m9qz/last_week_i_used_forkthread_chez_this_week_i_go/
2020-02-26T05:33:19Z oni-on-ion: such a mysterious error. got to be something unrelated to it, as things tend to be such, in such cases.. =)
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2020-02-26T05:36:08Z jules`: yeah thats me lol
2020-02-26T05:36:19Z jules`: now sudo make install
2020-02-26T05:36:22Z jules`: won't work
2020-02-26T05:36:34Z jules`: might be bedtime, maybe its just today haha
2020-02-26T05:38:04Z oni-on-ion: ehh, actual bug in your computer =)
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2020-02-26T05:46:12Z jules`: yeah now i get this: cannot find compatible scheme.boot in search path "../boot/%m"
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2020-02-26T05:47:30Z jules`: got an implementation recommendation. Confidence is a bit shook for me on chez if stuff works one day and not the next
2020-02-26T05:49:51Z oni-on-ion: yea =/ sounds like it needs commercial license =P
2020-02-26T05:49:58Z oni-on-ion: with online help etc =)
2020-02-26T05:50:09Z oni-on-ion: chez was your first choice ?
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2020-02-26T05:51:03Z jules`: chez was after a good bit of research. seemed liked the most developed. everyone seemed pleased that it went open source
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2020-02-26T05:51:25Z oni-on-ion: same here, i was checking it out too
2020-02-26T05:51:32Z oni-on-ion: racket is fully using chez now
2020-02-26T05:51:39Z jules`: but i'm thinking of trying racket, if for no other reason then I joined there slack and it seems like any problem has 30 people working with you to solve it
2020-02-26T05:51:50Z oni-on-ion: nice =)
2020-02-26T05:52:22Z zaifir: Augh, Racket is using Slack now?
2020-02-26T05:52:36Z zaifir: Idris is also compiling to Chez these days, IIUC>.
2020-02-26T05:52:38Z mdhughes: You've got some environment var set weird, so Chez's not finding its boot file? Do `set` and see if there's anything suspect in it
2020-02-26T05:56:09Z oni-on-ion: wasn't Idris the haskell-like thing ?
2020-02-26T05:56:12Z jules`: yeah, i'm just a wallflower on there, but i defget jealous that they have such a good resource
2020-02-26T05:56:56Z jules`: wish there was a scheme discord. live streaming. voice channels. able to search chat history. etc etc etc.
2020-02-26T05:56:59Z zaifir: oni-on-ion: It's a very elegant dependently-typed language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idris_(programming_language).
2020-02-26T05:57:15Z jules`: but seems scheme culture is all about mailing lists lol
2020-02-26T05:57:44Z zaifir: jules`: It's nice that the Scheme community tends to use FOSS communication tools primarily, yes.
2020-02-26T05:58:48Z zaifir: jules`: It makes me sad when projects like Racket switch to proprietary services like Slack for development.
2020-02-26T05:59:20Z oni-on-ion: ah yes, the haskell like thing =) cool, ty.
2020-02-26T05:59:29Z zaifir: Hah.
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2020-02-26T06:00:24Z jules`: thanks mdhughes for the pointer. i don't see anything funky. it's stopped working, and now won't rebuild. and I can't pinpoint whats been changed. Is a fresh OS install necessary at this point?
2020-02-26T06:00:45Z zaifir: Certainly not.
2020-02-26T06:00:55Z mdhughes: jules`: No, you should be able to just wipe out the existing Chez install, and reinstall it.
2020-02-26T06:01:09Z jules`: i've done sudo make uninstall
2020-02-26T06:01:16Z jules`: and now ./configure
2020-02-26T06:01:19Z jules`: and then sudo make install
2020-02-26T06:01:21Z jules`: and i get:
2020-02-26T06:02:12Z oni-on-ion: what about next week
2020-02-26T06:02:23Z jules`: Mf-base:372: recipe for target 'cmacros.so' failed
2020-02-26T06:02:41Z zaifir: jules`: You may need to `make clean'.
2020-02-26T06:02:41Z jules`: recipe for target 'allx' failed
2020-02-26T06:03:31Z mdhughes: I have no idea there. I'd just delete the entire directory it's in.
2020-02-26T06:03:52Z zaifir: Break out a fresh tarball or re-clone the repo.
2020-02-26T06:04:25Z mdhughes: I use brew for this, so it's `brew uninstall chezscheme`
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2020-02-26T06:12:06Z jules`: zaifir a fresh clone did the trick
2020-02-26T06:12:13Z jules`: thanks
2020-02-26T06:14:41Z jules`: and fork-thread works again too!
2020-02-26T06:14:45Z jules`: i wonder what happened
2020-02-26T06:22:38Z jules`: what are you all using scheme for?
2020-02-26T06:26:40Z oni-on-ion: gamedev =)
2020-02-26T06:31:09Z jules`: thats what im trying to do! haha
2020-02-26T06:31:47Z jules`: got chez going, got chez-gl working, and ive got myself a triangle in 3d space, and ai can use the keyboard to move around
2020-02-26T06:32:20Z jules`: otherthan this ive only done python and JS stuff (and nothing to do with games) this is just a hobby/weekend/want to learn more thing
2020-02-26T06:33:35Z oni-on-ion: cool =) cant wait to see whats next
2020-02-26T06:35:31Z brutalist: I wonder if chez scheme is being used on any commercial product outside of Cisco
2020-02-26T06:36:38Z zaifir: jules`: You might find Scheme to be very different from Python and JS.  erkin has a good list of Scheme resources if you'd like some background https://erkin.party/scheme/
2020-02-26T06:37:28Z jules`: nice thanks! I did htdpd with greg sizacles on youtube, this list is great!
2020-02-26T06:37:39Z zaifir: jules`: The Little Schemer is an especially good intro if you need a primer on recursive thinking.
2020-02-26T06:37:55Z zaifir: Oh, cool.
2020-02-26T06:38:14Z jules`: so i guess racket was my first implementation but this was a couple years ago
2020-02-26T06:38:34Z jules`: ive forgotten everything, been in javascript too long for work
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2020-02-26T07:11:14Z mdhughes: Yeah, I write games and utility tools in Scheme, pretty much anything I would use Python for is faster to do in Scheme now.
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2020-02-26T07:41:06Z wasamasa: there's a Lisp discord so you could theoretically chat about Scheme there
2020-02-26T07:41:17Z wasamasa: but it's mostly CL people
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2020-02-26T07:42:25Z oni-on-ion: emacs lisp is its own thing, but its closer to CL than scheme ?
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2020-02-26T07:47:40Z wasamasa: by virtue of having the same ancestor, yes
2020-02-26T07:47:43Z mdhughes: It's a weird thing of its own. Which I've never understood, the devs are mostly CL people, so why haven't they made elisp more like CL?
2020-02-26T07:47:55Z wasamasa: look at the maclisp manuals
2020-02-26T07:49:11Z mdhughes: Like, Atom is written by JS devs, and it's JS (TypeScript, etc. too), and used to push Electron & JS dev forward.
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2020-02-26T07:50:25Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, to be fair, elisp does have a lot of CL stuff in there. eieio, cl-lib , others
2020-02-26T07:50:29Z wasamasa: I have my doubts they are unless I see a full list with affiliations
2020-02-26T07:51:21Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, and a big part of elisp design afaik is RFM's things he liked and disliked from CL. and related to maclisp as wasamasa says
2020-02-26T07:51:32Z oni-on-ion: heh
2020-02-26T07:52:23Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, to add a better question, why not the devs using guile already? it does existing elisp 100% afaik.
2020-02-26T07:52:35Z oni-on-ion: they could then use JS, or whatever else is added to guile VM
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2020-02-26T07:53:04Z oni-on-ion: seems like a trivial path
2020-02-26T07:53:04Z mdhughes: That would make more sense, sure. emacs-on-guile.
2020-02-26T07:53:49Z oni-on-ion: it is a real thing though, that works and runs. just unsure of the state of its community or politics
2020-02-26T07:54:44Z mdhughes: I often envy emacs users having one shell to do everything in, but then whenever I try to use it as an editor I nope right out.
2020-02-26T07:55:00Z mdhughes: (I know there's vi-emulation, but that's really weird)
2020-02-26T07:55:42Z oni-on-ion: me too. my eyes wander to exotic vistas and luxurious resorts
2020-02-26T07:55:53Z oni-on-ion: dont want to be stuck in my office all day
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2020-02-26T09:26:09Z mdhughes: Answer to my question from yesterday, I had to write my own SRFI-64 test-runner. Will blog about it soon.
2020-02-26T09:26:41Z mdhughes: If I follow convention, the name for it would be SSUnit, which is not acceptable. So, suggestions? There's a "SchemeUnit" so that's out.
2020-02-26T09:29:01Z mdhughes: This is really unacceptable behavior in a SRFI: "The set of available result properties is implementation-specific. However, it is suggested that the following might be provided:"
2020-02-26T09:29:35Z mdhughes: As it turns out, the result field it doesn't mention is one of the most important, 'test-name
2020-02-26T09:30:24Z mdhughes: (you can get it thru an accessor, but it's still underspecced)
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2020-02-26T11:29:01Z mdhughes: This may be helpful to someone: \((define|def|define-syntax)\*?\s+(\(?([\w?!%>-]+)|([\w?!%>-]+)\s+\(lambda|case-lambda|λ)
2020-02-26T11:29:09Z mdhughes: The function name is \3
2020-02-26T11:29:42Z mdhughes: Works on most of my code and about 75% of the code in various libraries.
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2020-02-26T13:47:59Z lockywolf_: SRFI-1 doesn't have flatmap?
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2020-02-26T13:52:30Z ski: lockywolf_ : <https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#append-map>
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2020-02-26T13:57:00Z lockywolf_: ski, aww...
2020-02-26T13:57:03Z lockywolf_: shame on me
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2020-02-26T14:15:44Z jcowan: lockywolf_: append-map
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2020-02-27T12:49:00Z mdhughes: https://mdhughes.tech/2020/02/27/scheme-test-unit/
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2020-02-27T22:43:46Z underlifE: when evaluating (quote (quote hello)) in Chez, I get 'hello back. isn't this wrong? since I'm explicitly asking NOT to have the argument (quote hello) evaluated... shouldn't I get simply (quote hello) back, i.e. a list?
2020-02-27T22:44:35Z tdammers: isn't 'hello literally syntactic sugar for (quote hello) ?
2020-02-27T22:44:59Z underlifE: yea I just realized that
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2020-02-28T00:12:25Z ZombieChicken: Hello. I've run into a somewhat serious problem; picking an implementation. I'm basically bouncing between guile and chicken at this point, but can't seem to make up my mind; neither feels like it has a major advantage over the other (that I can see, anyways), and I could use some guidance. I'd also like some input from someone more experienced on how difficult it may/will be to port code between
2020-02-28T00:12:27Z ZombieChicken: the two.
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2020-02-28T00:22:11Z zaifir: ZombieChicken: Is there a reason you need to pick one?
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2020-02-28T00:23:15Z ZombieChicken: zaifir: A fair bit of what I'm trying to go will involve an FFI; I don't think that that is portable between implementations
2020-02-28T00:23:28Z zaifir: ZombieChicken: Definitely not.
2020-02-28T00:24:07Z ZombieChicken: so yeah, think I need to pick one
2020-02-28T00:25:42Z aeth thinks that everyone should wait a few days before making a decision on which Scheme to use. :-)
2020-02-28T00:27:12Z ZombieChicken: aeth: I've been looking between the two for a week or so. I can't make up my mind
2020-02-28T00:27:43Z zaifir: ZombieChicken: You could make the decision per-project.  I wouldn't want to embed CHICKEN, but its C FFI is quite nice.
2020-02-28T00:28:19Z ZombieChicken: What is wrong with embedding Chicken?
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2020-02-28T00:29:17Z aeth: ZombieChicken: The major options atm are Guile, Chicken, and Racket, but those aren't the only options.
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2020-02-28T00:30:20Z ZombieChicken: I'm aware. I used to mess with Racket, but the RAM requirements for it are pretty insane
2020-02-28T00:30:38Z aeth: eh, they seem modest to me
2020-02-28T00:31:04Z aeth: < 120 MB is good enough for anybody
2020-02-28T00:31:13Z aeth: I'm getting 66 MB in a fresh start atm
2020-02-28T00:32:26Z belmarca: it's good to try each out
2020-02-28T00:33:32Z ZombieChicken: How hard is it to port code from Chicken to Guile and vise versa?
2020-02-28T00:33:48Z belmarca: depends on the code
2020-02-28T00:34:14Z belmarca: RnRS code should be portable between RnRS implementations, modulo FFI
2020-02-28T00:34:53Z zaifir: The problem is which RnRS--R5 is the lowest common denominator between those two implementations.
2020-02-28T00:35:21Z belmarca: if you already have requirements that can help you choose, plus it isn't a bad thing to work with multiple impls until (if) one "clicks"
2020-02-28T00:35:37Z aeth: zaifir: the most positive integer, actually. :-)
2020-02-28T00:35:46Z aeth: well, n=5, not R5
2020-02-28T00:36:06Z zaifir: Hah.
2020-02-28T00:37:28Z zaifir: jcowan is helping drag CHICKEN toward R7.  I think R7 effort in Guile is stalled?  I don't think they ever seriously considered R6, either.
2020-02-28T00:37:54Z gwatt: zaifir: guile is pretty r6rs compatible
2020-02-28T00:38:13Z zaifir: gwatt: TIL.
2020-02-28T00:38:15Z gwatt: It doesn't include the r6rs libraries in the repl by default
2020-02-28T00:38:28Z gwatt: but (import (rnrs)) is all you need
2020-02-28T00:38:54Z zaifir: Wow, I didn't know their R6 support was so good.
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2020-02-28T00:39:33Z gwatt: I think their plan is to support r6 and r7 at the same time, as much as possible.
2020-02-28T00:39:46Z gwatt: I'll see if I can dredge up link
2020-02-28T00:41:20Z ZombieChicken: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/R6RS-Support.html
2020-02-28T00:41:27Z ZombieChicken: From someone in #guile when I asked about that a bit ago
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2020-02-28T00:43:48Z ZombieChicken: Thanks for the input guys. Think I'm going to work with Chicken for the most part. It seems to have a nice set of libraries
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2020-02-28T00:44:21Z gwatt: I think I was thinking about the guile 3 announcement, which includes descriptions of changes to support r6 and r7
2020-02-28T00:44:48Z gwatt: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu/2020-01/msg00003.html
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2020-02-28T15:08:29Z dpk: is there any way to disable the Chibi printer's use of the #n# notation to show shared parts of data structures? i'm willing to accept the risk of an infinite loop if i were to give it a circular list
2020-02-28T15:10:41Z dpk: ah, i can wrap what i want to see in a call to write-simple
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2020-02-28T15:56:34Z dpk: am i right that Chibi's debugging capabilities are quite limited, or am i missing something?
2020-02-28T15:57:10Z dpk: if an error occurs on the REPL, i can't see a stack trace, and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to get one
2020-02-28T15:58:03Z dpk: (in this case i'm getting a "non procedure application: #<undef>" error from somewhere in a 20-line-long procedure and all i know is that it's somewhere in those 20 lines)
2020-02-28T15:58:12Z dpk: nor does there seem to be a step-through debugger
2020-02-28T15:58:37Z dpk: alternatively, is there another R7RS implementation with support for SRFIs 1, 14, and 130 with better debugging?
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2020-02-28T16:00:51Z zaifir: dpk: You're probably right.  The Chibi site doesn't have much of anything on using or debugging with the REPL.
2020-02-28T16:02:37Z zaifir: dpk: Gambit, maybe?
2020-02-28T16:03:35Z gwatt: dpk: maybe guile. It doesn't explicitly have srfi 130 support, but it looks like it does have most of the string procedures from srfi 130.
2020-02-28T16:04:01Z zaifir: Er, Gerbil, I mean, which has a lot of R7 libraries.
2020-02-28T16:05:07Z dpk: hmm, Gerbil looks cool
2020-02-28T16:05:37Z dpk: gwatt: doesn't appear to have the actual string cursors
2020-02-28T16:05:38Z zaifir: SRFI 130 is probably going to be the hard part.
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2020-02-28T16:06:06Z dpk: although i only have one procedure that uses SRFI 130, and i could probably rewrite it in terms of ye olde SRFI 13 if needs be …
2020-02-28T16:06:17Z belmarca: dpk https://github.com/vyzo/gerbil/tree/master/src/std/srfi
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2020-02-28T16:22:08Z zaifir: So I guess the two directions that mutable string libraries could take are SRFI 130 and SRFI 152?
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2020-02-28T16:24:04Z zaifir: It will be nice to start seeing (scheme text) in more places.  I think it's a pretty elegant library.
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2020-02-28T16:26:41Z zaifir: Hmm, though 152 is itself based on 130.  So it seems 152 is *the* string SRFI.
2020-02-28T16:28:41Z dpk: oh really? shows how much i've been paying attention
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2020-02-28T16:31:44Z zaifir: It seems like the whole issue has a very complex history.  R6 made strings immutable, R7-small undid that, but neither the Red nor the Tangerine ballots settled on a (mutable) string library.
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2020-02-28T16:32:32Z dpk: hmm, once again i feel i'm missing something. i launch `gxi --lang r7rs` but then when i do (import (srfi 1)) or something like that it complains that it can't find it
2020-02-28T16:33:10Z dpk: i wonder if i have some environment variable set up wrong …
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2020-02-28T16:33:51Z belmarca: (import (std srfi 1))
2020-02-28T16:34:10Z dpk: ah isn't that non-conforming thoug?
2020-02-28T16:34:16Z dpk: *though
2020-02-28T16:34:46Z dpk: for some definition of 'conforming' to one or another standard
2020-02-28T16:35:24Z belmarca: I don't know enough.
2020-02-28T16:35:33Z belmarca: but that's how you'd do it in gerbil
2020-02-28T16:36:14Z belmarca: it might be a undesired behaviour, you can ask vyzo in #gerbil-scheme
2020-02-28T16:36:23Z dpk: fine, i'll just give up on portability for that one case for now then
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2020-02-28T16:36:58Z belmarca: you should ask him still!
2020-02-28T16:38:45Z zaifir: R7RS uses (scheme list)
2020-02-28T16:39:04Z belmarca: that works too
2020-02-28T16:39:11Z zaifir: If a SRFI makes it into R7-large, it gets renamed, IIUC
2020-02-28T16:39:40Z belmarca: I see
2020-02-28T16:43:12Z dpk: grumble, it looks like SRFI 130 hasn't made it into an officially packaged release of Gerbil yet
2020-02-28T16:43:30Z dpk: probably just going to give up and rewrite that one procedure in terms of SRFI 13
2020-02-28T16:45:01Z zaifir: dpk: Could you use a text, or do you need mutation?
2020-02-28T16:45:03Z belmarca: you can compile gerbil quite easily
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2020-02-28T19:17:31Z dpk: Gerbil looks very cool, dunno why i hadn't found this earlier
2020-02-28T19:17:43Z dpk: also the error that happened under Chibi doesn't happen in Gerbil, so …
2020-02-28T19:18:27Z jcowan: Ouch.  Yes, Chibi is terbil for debugging.
2020-02-28T19:19:10Z jcowan: Its original use case was embedded in other applications, after all.  You're supposed to debug your code *before* you do that.
2020-02-28T19:19:22Z dpk: heh, yes, i suppose so
2020-02-28T19:19:23Z jcowan: And yes, SRFI 130 and SRFI 151 will almost certainly both be on the next ballot.
2020-02-28T19:20:04Z jcowan: (it's annoying that "embedded" means two different things in programming, though not as annoying as "persistent")
2020-02-28T19:23:29Z dpk: is it too late for syntax-related SRFIs for R7RS-big?
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2020-02-28T19:23:58Z dpk: i still keep meaning to write up my proposal for an easier #u8"..." notation for byte-vectors, like Python's b-strings
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2020-02-28T19:24:20Z dpk: where by syntax i of course mean notation, like i used in the second line
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2020-02-28T19:30:18Z belmarca: dpk what's wrong with #u8
2020-02-28T19:32:18Z dpk: assuming you've got an ASCII-looking (UTF-8, ISO 8859-x, whatever) string in it, you can't tell what the ASCII letters say at a glance with a #u8(…) notation, unless you happen to know the ASCII chart by heart or something
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2020-02-28T19:32:36Z dpk: it's the difference between being able to say #u8"hello world" and having to say #u8(104 101 108 108 111 32 119 111 114 108 100)
2020-02-28T19:34:45Z jcowan: dpk: No, it is too early, technically; all the lexical stuff will be decided last.  But that doesn't mean you shouldn't write a SRFI.  Art will be extremely helpful with that.
2020-02-28T19:37:04Z edgar-rft: dpk: #u8(84 104 97 116 39 115 32 101 120 97 99 116 108 121 32 119 104 97 116 32 73 32 115 97 105 100 32 114 105 103 104 116 32 102 114 111 109 32 116 104 101 32 98 101 103 105 110 110 105 110 103 33)
2020-02-28T19:39:00Z Riastradh: #u8"foo" should take UTF-8 with arbitrary per-octet hex escapes
2020-02-28T19:39:21Z Riastradh: Also R7RS-whatever should have a NaCl API (plus Ed25519 signatures as in libsodium).
2020-02-28T19:39:43Z dpk: Python only allows ASCII characters and hex escapes, but i can see the argument for saying that any higher characters should be treated as UTF-8
2020-02-28T19:40:05Z dpk: mandatory full Unicode support is on the agenda for R7RS-large, i take it?
2020-02-28T19:41:08Z dpk: i.e. implementations of large aren't allowed to say "sorry, no" to a string with codepoints between U+0000 and U+10FFFF like implementations of small are?
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2020-02-28T19:45:57Z belmarca: you can always have your reader allow that, no?
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2020-02-28T23:22:50Z jcowan: dpk: That hasn't formally been voted on, no.
2020-02-28T23:23:13Z jcowan: Chibi priunts bytevector elements in hex with the exception of zero, which is just 0 instead of 0x00.
2020-02-28T23:23:16Z jcowan: prints, even
2020-02-28T23:24:31Z jcowan: However, I know of no R7RS system that has characters forbidden in strings (which can be anything except #\x1; to #\x7F;.
2020-02-28T23:24:33Z jcowan: 0
2020-02-28T23:24:35Z jcowan: )
2020-02-28T23:24:43Z jcowan: @#$** macbook pro kbd
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2020-02-29T03:30:53Z klovett: listening apple? Taika Waititi & jcowan
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2020-02-29T06:02:16Z mdhughes: They've already fixed it in the new ones… But that doesn't help any sucker who bought a "butterfly" keyboard, so called because it's made of butterfly wings.
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2020-02-29T06:05:59Z zig: I have some type to help advance the scheme community forward.
2020-02-29T06:06:04Z zig: s/type/time/
2020-02-29T06:06:44Z zig: I hope both sounds seems... pompous!
2020-02-29T06:08:57Z zig: My mischievous that consisted to translate my work in Python, acquire user and then force them to use Scheme failed.
2020-02-29T06:09:24Z zig: My mischievous *plan* that consisted to translate my work in Python, acquire user and then force them to use Scheme failed.
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2020-02-29T06:10:35Z zig: I had to try.
2020-02-29T06:10:55Z zig: I managed to have 14 star on github, that is less that the scheme project used to have (50)
2020-02-29T06:13:24Z aeth: zig: I believe you mean your mischievous scheme, not plan
2020-02-29T06:13:33Z zig: yes
2020-02-29T06:13:43Z zig: isn't plan a synonym of scheme?
2020-02-29T06:14:37Z zig: aeth: ^
2020-02-29T06:15:44Z aeth: zig: actually, Scheme is a pun on Planner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planner_(programming_language)
2020-02-29T06:16:20Z aeth: Scheme instead of Schemer probably because of the brutal character limits of those times
2020-02-29T06:16:31Z zig: TIL
2020-02-29T06:18:37Z zig: btw that page speaks of Prolog, the AI community is (still) strong in Prolog land, we should do something about it "_"'
2020-02-29T06:19:39Z zig: bit by bit
2020-02-29T06:19:42Z zig: byte by byte
2020-02-29T06:19:46Z zig: parens by parens
2020-02-29T06:20:40Z zig: I have the JSON srfi on going, and some bibliography things to work on.
2020-02-29T06:27:01Z zaifir: A bait-and-switch scheme with Python as the bait sounds like it would make a lot of unsuspecting programmers unhappy.
2020-02-29T06:32:30Z zig: you know.
2020-02-29T06:36:59Z zaifir: "May contain trace amounts of LISP", indeed.
2020-02-29T06:37:29Z zig: fwiw, some one on #python was complaining along the lines of "you know I have a big-ish system, and when you deprecate feature that we use, it creates lots of friction on our side (read work), please stop evolving the language"
2020-02-29T06:38:15Z zig: I replied that they were describing "rich people problem" along the lines of "big project" etc... I went into rage explain that it was not and rage /close
2020-02-29T06:38:43Z zig: he went into trying to explain that... well, it was big and that he was not rich.
2020-02-29T06:39:05Z zaifir: zig: Out of context, it does seem to be a reasonable complaint.
2020-02-29T06:39:44Z zaifir: zig: Python is basically a one-implementation, BDFL-led language.
2020-02-29T06:40:08Z zig: BDFL is not BDFL anymore.
2020-02-29T06:40:16Z zig: guido that is.
2020-02-29T06:40:20Z zaifir: Righ.t
2020-02-29T06:40:23Z zaifir: *Right.
2020-02-29T06:41:54Z pjb: They can use Common Lisp anytime. DUH.
2020-02-29T06:42:09Z zig: zaifir: the thing is that people complain about backward compatibility, but they are just lazy, because the deprecation policy in python 3 is very clear, it is marked during 3 minor release as deprecated and the user should move to new behavior, that around 6 month of time.
2020-02-29T06:43:22Z pjb: zig: that's not the point. The point is the resources you need to divert on upgrading your software to the new language, (and the new set of libraries, because some libraries will be bitrotten and replaced).
2020-02-29T06:43:32Z zaifir: zig: Yes.  Or some people may be overworked and have massive Python codebases to maintain, and they'd like the language to stay the same.
2020-02-29T06:44:10Z pjb: zig: and even if you are a billionaire, perhaps you'd prefer to assign those resources on going to Mars rather than upgrading your software because some geek thought of a new idea for their toy language…
2020-02-29T06:44:17Z zig: pjb: The case I am describing is not python2 -> python3 change, it is a python3 -> new python3 change
2020-02-29T06:44:20Z pjb: (ie. don't use python to go to Mars!)
2020-02-29T06:44:30Z pjb: zig: it's the same.
2020-02-29T06:44:51Z pjb: zig: the worst part, of course, being that it's a continuous process!  You need to constantly put resources on tracking those changes!
2020-02-29T06:45:03Z zig: I think their deprecation policy is good.
2020-02-29T06:45:18Z pjb: The fact that a deprecation policy exists is BAD.
2020-02-29T06:45:20Z zig: but that upstream work is that done for free! That is what I was going to mention.
2020-02-29T06:46:19Z zaifir: If there is indeed a rapid "deprecation cycle", that sounds like a major challenge to keep up with, even with loads of time for maintenance.
2020-02-29T06:46:31Z zig: a friend core python dev, got into a drama because he deprecated a project for 1 year, then deleted the repository, then people started to show up saying "HEY YOU SHOULD NOT DO THAT!" except they never took part in the dev through money or maintenance.
2020-02-29T06:47:25Z zig: actually, the maintainer, told he did not know people were using that project.
2020-02-29T06:47:44Z pjb: zig: I'm not saying the fault lies entirely on the providers of the software.  Clearly, I said above users should NOT use those systems!
2020-02-29T06:48:20Z pjb: zig: basically, if your development cycle is longer than the tool development cycle you're in for a world of pain.
2020-02-29T06:48:26Z zig: pjb: that is an escape hatch outside moving to CL.
2020-02-29T06:48:33Z pjb: zig: choose tools that are more stable than what you're developping!
2020-02-29T06:48:46Z pjb: zig: CL, Ada, even C, whatever.
2020-02-29T06:48:49Z zaifir: Indeed.
2020-02-29T06:49:08Z pjb: Something that's standardized and doesn't change every time you connect to the Internet.
2020-02-29T06:49:47Z zig: what about the community?
2020-02-29T06:50:06Z zig: does it have shiny stickers available on amazon (tm)
2020-02-29T06:50:09Z zig: ?
2020-02-29T06:50:28Z zig: is the website up-to-date to the 2020 visual trend?
2020-02-29T06:50:41Z zig: many aspects you forgot to mention in your "careful" review.
2020-02-29T06:50:48Z zig: also I need a library for leftpad.
2020-02-29T06:51:03Z pjb: zig: yes, when things change all the time, you need a community to help you keep up to date.  When the standard is etched in stone, you don't.  You just hire professionnal programmers and you're all set.
2020-02-29T06:51:42Z pjb: stackoverflow is not a solution, it's the symptom of a big problem!
2020-02-29T06:52:07Z zaifir: zig: I'm not sure what you want.  What do "shiny stickers" have to do with it?
2020-02-29T06:52:21Z zig: pjb: CL seems the only plausible choice among the one you cited to replace Python, but it is a LISP-2 I am wondering how difficult it is to wrap one's head around it.
2020-02-29T06:52:30Z zig: zaifir: I am trying to joke
2020-02-29T06:52:43Z zig: zaifir: people follow the hype.
2020-02-29T06:52:50Z pjb: zig: it's not that difficult.  All natural languages are lisp-2s.
2020-02-29T06:52:56Z zaifir: zig: But isn't that part of the problem?
2020-02-29T06:53:02Z zig: zaifir: yeah
2020-02-29T06:55:02Z zaifir: It's interesting that, despite having a very good standard, Haskell runs into the same problem: everything breaks if you don't have a (very) recent GHC.
2020-02-29T06:55:55Z zaifir: Well, it's not the same problem, and it's more fixable.
2020-02-29T06:56:19Z zig: pjb: what about dynamic typing?
2020-02-29T06:56:29Z pjb: zig: yes, I prefer it in general.
2020-02-29T06:56:41Z zig: pjb: I mean dynamic scoping
2020-02-29T06:56:55Z pjb: it can be useful, but it's not the default in CL.
2020-02-29T06:57:03Z zig: ah ok
2020-02-29T06:57:40Z pjb: Only the global variables are dynamic by default. You can define a lexical global operator using define-symbol-macro (there are libraries providing such a defglobal), but you should not have global variables anyways, so it's not a real problem.
2020-02-29T06:58:03Z zig: zaifir: last summer, at scheme workshop, I noticed an old teacher of mine, that was just getting started with haskell, I was disappointed.
2020-02-29T06:59:53Z zig: disappointed by the fact that he did not know already haskell.
2020-02-29T07:00:25Z zaifir: zig: Ah, OK, that makes sense.
2020-02-29T07:00:56Z zaifir: zig: It's gladdening to see people learning new things, I think.
2020-02-29T07:03:08Z pjb: Perhaps he knew Ocaml, or Miranda, or some other older functional programming language?
2020-02-29T07:07:09Z zig: yes
2020-02-29T07:07:26Z zig: especially, in France, OCaml is strong.
2020-02-29T07:07:48Z zig: at least in academia
2020-02-29T07:12:40Z zaifir: vive l’Ocaml
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2020-02-29T07:39:44Z lockywolf: why doesn't r7rs specify that (list-ref list k) counts elements from zero?
2020-02-29T07:39:52Z lockywolf: Are there implementations which count from 1?
2020-02-29T07:41:44Z pjb: because it's obvious, people forget to mention it.
2020-02-29T07:41:58Z pjb: You'd have to be crazy to start counting from 1.
2020-02-29T07:42:13Z pjb: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD831.html
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2020-02-29T08:09:19Z lockywolf: "you have to be crazy" is not a valid argument
2020-02-29T08:09:49Z lockywolf: "we forget" is a better argument.
2020-02-29T08:14:15Z zaifir: lockywolf: (list-ref xs k) is specified to give an error if xs "has k or fewer elements", so this implicitly means 0-indexing, IIUC.
2020-02-29T08:17:21Z lockywolf: zaifir, "it is an error" doesn't mean that list-ref should give an error
2020-02-29T08:18:57Z lockywolf: In particular, if your list is a circle of 2 elements, and you ask for an element number 10, it is _your_ error, and list-ref doesn't promise you anything.
2020-02-29T08:19:41Z lockywolf: But will probably give one of the elements that is car nine times cdr
2020-02-29T08:36:33Z zaifir: I'm not sure I understand that.  What's surprising is that section 6.4 doesn't seem to define 'circular list', so I can't guess what list-ref would do with such a list based on the standard.
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2020-02-29T08:43:13Z zaifir: But it would be very surprising if list-ref gave a different result in that case than just taking the car of the kth cdr...
2020-02-29T08:44:40Z zaifir: Anyway, sleep. o/
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2020-02-29T10:50:47Z zig: o/
2020-02-29T11:01:33Z aeth: I'm going to have list-ref be one-based and error on the kth element, I guess
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2020-02-29T12:06:14Z mdhughes: I've programmed some in Julia and Lua, both 1-based. Lua's an abomination. Julia's tolerable but it causes a lot of errors.
2020-02-29T12:07:01Z mdhughes: At least with Julia there's a lot of functional methods so you don't have to deal with indexing often.
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2020-02-29T13:11:56Z oni-on-ion: also indexing can be overloaded in julia
2020-02-29T13:12:14Z oni-on-ion: just defaults to 1-based
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2020-02-29T13:33:46Z wasamasa: overloading bit me again
2020-02-29T13:34:14Z wasamasa: when an array of numbers and a string allow addition, then string conversion is performed
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2020-02-29T16:58:59Z mdhughes: I've never seen anyone actually change the base in Julia, and it seems like there'd be a million places where you'd have to change it.
2020-02-29T17:00:00Z mdhughes: There was an array library that worked at 0-index, but it didn't convert toll-free to the native language array.
2020-02-29T17:00:56Z oni-on-ion: oh, my understanding was the opposite of these two points
2020-02-29T17:01:39Z oni-on-ion: https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/devdocs/offset-arrays/index.html
2020-02-29T17:01:47Z Riastradh: auuuugh 1-based indexing is the work of the devil
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2020-02-29T17:02:36Z oni-on-ion: i dont mind it. its the conversion to/from that adds uncomfy context switch
2020-02-29T17:03:40Z grobe0ba: why the hell would anyone think a 1-based index system is okay in the modern world? what the hell are we programming in now days, QBASIC?
2020-02-29T17:03:55Z oni-on-ion: worse to me (and the main reason why i havent dived deeper into julia) ----- is the END keyword. thats the work of the devil's devil
2020-02-29T17:04:19Z oni-on-ion: grobe0ba, the demographic for julia are people that use 1-based stuff already
2020-02-29T17:04:28Z grobe0ba: oh, you mean mental inferiors?
2020-02-29T17:04:40Z grobe0ba: that was probably wrong and hurtful, but seriously...
2020-02-29T17:06:11Z mdhughes: That page is what I meant: You have to make a custom array, custom axes, and it only applies to that custom type.
2020-02-29T17:06:38Z mdhughes: Applying it to all arrays is not a thing you can do.
2020-02-29T17:07:06Z mdhughes: There are math/stats tools that also do 1-index, and FORTRAN did, they're not stupid, just obsolete.
2020-02-29T17:07:12Z oni-on-ion: ah, yeah
2020-02-29T17:07:14Z oni-on-ion: and like BLAS
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2020-02-29T17:30:18Z pjb: (define months (make-array 12 :base 1 :initial-contents '(jan feb mar apr may jun jul aug sep oct nov))) (aref months 1) -> jan  could be useful though… Othercases exist. That's why pascal's nice.  But in practice this doesn't occur often enough to warrant a provision in the language.
2020-02-29T17:31:38Z Riastradh: (define (month-name m) (vector-ref months (- n 1)))
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2020-02-29T17:53:56Z pjb: Of course.
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2020-02-29T18:48:55Z aeth: I use 1-based indices in my code in one place: matricies. Those algos are all 1-based and it's too complicated and error-prone to convert them.
2020-02-29T18:49:17Z aeth: But in practice, you'd probably want to define your own matrix-ref
2020-02-29T18:51:20Z aeth: 1-based indexing is probably the biggest flaw of Lua because it's a 1-based language whose sole purpose is interfacing with 0-based C/C++ APIs.
2020-02-29T18:51:43Z aeth: At least Julia probably uses a lot of FORTRAN.
2020-02-29T18:52:58Z oni-on-ion: =P
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2020-02-29T23:02:47Z aeth: jcowan: are you online?
2020-02-29T23:17:45Z aeth: I'm probably going to be incrementally releasing pieces today, ideally starting this hour. I've mostly been working on my parser macro...
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2020-02-29T23:38:44Z oni-on-ion: yay
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