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2019-12-01T11:14:54Z montxero: How does one organise libraries?  The example in section 1.1.2 of R6Rs does not work in MIT/Gnu Scheme version 10.1.3
2019-12-01T11:17:38Z montxero: It gives the following error:
2019-12-01T11:17:40Z montxero: ;Definition may not be used as an expression: #[defn-item 42 hello-world #[expr-item 43]]
2019-12-01T11:17:40Z montxero: ;To continue, call RESTART with an option number:
2019-12-01T11:17:41Z montxero: ; (RESTART 1) => Return to read-eval-print level 1.
2019-12-01T11:17:43Z montxero: ;Definition may not be used as an expression: #[defn-item 42 hello-world #[expr-item 43]]
2019-12-01T11:17:44Z montxero: ;To continue, call RESTART with an option number:
2019-12-01T11:17:47Z montxero: ; (RESTART 1) => Return to read-eval-print level 1.
2019-12-01T11:17:50Z montxero:  
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2019-12-01T11:25:53Z mdhughes: http://community.schemewiki.org/?module-example-mit-scheme
2019-12-01T11:26:33Z mdhughes: In systems without R6 or R7 modules, you just put everything in different files, and load them from the main file.
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2019-12-01T11:30:54Z jcowan: MIT Scheme doesn't conform to R6RS
2019-12-01T11:34:32Z mdhughes: If you're following R6RS or TSPL, Chez Scheme is the best implementation https://www.scheme.com
2019-12-01T11:35:26Z jcowan: Or Racket
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2019-12-01T11:54:06Z mdhughes: Just added: http://community.schemewiki.org/?module-example-chez
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2019-12-01T12:18:03Z jcowan: I just wrote a teeny tiny pre-SRFI for string interpolation: review would be appreciated.
2019-12-01T12:18:22Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/StringInterpolateCowan.md
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2019-12-01T12:20:32Z mdhughes: Also: Flatt on Racket https://youtu.be/LN0qG-i1iT0
2019-12-01T12:20:41Z mdhughes: "Maybe they're thinking, why isn't it better yet?"
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2019-12-01T12:26:37Z mdhughes: jcowan: I'm looking at 108, 109 and there's discussion of other delimiters, but why not $ like every UNIX thing, other than very old LISP-is-the-anti-UNIX memes.
2019-12-01T12:27:36Z jcowan: I have no objection to that; I was just trying to eliminate incidental differences to make comparisons simpler.
2019-12-01T12:28:00Z jcowan: One thing I do not want is \& for an escaped &
2019-12-01T12:28:19Z jcowan: (which would have to be written \\&)
2019-12-01T12:29:47Z jcowan: I think one of the Unix mistakes was to use \x to mean either "special thing suggested by x" or "literal x"
2019-12-01T12:31:11Z wasamasa: I was about to suggest %%
2019-12-01T12:31:42Z mdhughes: Yeah, that's fine, %% and such is traditional. Actually, Python's latest format strings are just bare fields: f"{x}" interpolates x. But I like awk/perl style ${x} better.
2019-12-01T12:36:37Z mdhughes: SRFI-109 supports both &[x] and &(x), which should be preserved
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2019-12-01T12:40:36Z jcowan: This is not classical Perl/Python string interpolation, where you are allowed to embed lexically scoped expressions inside strings (which requires special treatment from the lexer), and the name `string-interpolate` may be bad for that reason.
2019-12-01T12:41:00Z wasamasa: what are these then?
2019-12-01T12:41:17Z mdhughes: Related, in that you're not redefining string syntax, I'd like #<<HERE ... HERE to be standardized. It's so massively useful in Chicken.
2019-12-01T12:41:48Z jcowan: Instead it uses a totally local namespace provided by the mapping so that reordering the interpolation points does not require copying around code.
2019-12-01T12:41:49Z wasamasa: the closest thing I've seen to them is format-spec.el
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2019-12-01T12:42:02Z jcowan: the closest thing is gettext
2019-12-01T12:42:08Z wasamasa: which allows you to do a mapping to percent-escaped characters
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2019-12-01T12:42:46Z mdhughes: Perl has a .format() method like that, takes a map instead of accessing local scope.
2019-12-01T12:42:53Z mdhughes: s/Perl/Python/
2019-12-01T12:43:21Z wasamasa: (format-spec "path: %f" (format-spec-make ?f "/path/to/file")) ;=> "path: /path/to/file"
2019-12-01T12:46:06Z mdhughes: Hopefully more like (string-format "path: {path}" '((path "/path/to/file")))
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2019-12-01T12:47:39Z mdhughes: Replace {path} with whatever the escape syntax ends up being.
2019-12-01T12:48:07Z mdhughes: The thing is, 109 allows an expression evaluated in a local environment. Are you doing that?
2019-12-01T12:50:23Z mdhughes: Very alternate take. Grab SRFI-48. Add ~(NAME)CODE to all directives, and take an alist. Fix it so it's reentrant, because currently it's useless in most implementations.
2019-12-01T12:51:06Z mdhughes: Everyone loves format.
2019-12-01T13:01:37Z jcowan: I don't; I much prefer format combinators
2019-12-01T13:02:20Z jcowan: The "expression evaluated in a local environment" is pushed out to the mapping.  This is quite natural in a plist/keyword style:
2019-12-01T13:02:30Z TCZ: hi/cześć
2019-12-01T13:03:48Z jcowan: (string-interpolate "Deleted &[file-count] files in &[dir-count] directories" 'file-count (some-expr) 'dir-count (some-other-expr))
2019-12-01T13:04:46Z jcowan: And if a UI person or translator decides that putting the directory count first is more natural, the names guarantee that this works; the only instruction is "Don't change what's between &{ and ]"
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2019-12-01T13:05:56Z jcowan: TCZ: Hails!
2019-12-01T13:06:01Z mdhughes: I rarely use printf/format in prod code, only debugging. Prod is usually (print) if anything.
2019-12-01T13:06:24Z mdhughes: But combinators produce really ugly code where you have text, a giant blob of functions, text, giant blob of functions, etc.
2019-12-01T13:06:47Z jcowan: Not as ugly as, say, CL format strings.
2019-12-01T13:07:09Z jcowan: It's the same story as regex combinators vs. regex strings: the latter have to have lots of magic conventions
2019-12-01T13:08:04Z mdhughes: formats can look very nice, when you have long chunks of text with a few complex expressions inline. Both styles are ugly when you have a small text, field, repeat 100 times.
2019-12-01T13:10:53Z jcowan: Not sure I follow.  Example?
2019-12-01T13:13:26Z mdhughes: Hard to paste in such things. Like an invoice or any such form, will have a lot of ASCII-art text, field names, then a field, which needs formatting for length & numeric style.
2019-12-01T13:14:07Z mdhughes: Most of those don't have a ton of fields, so format works fine, it just gets confusing when you reach some critical mass of unnamed positional fields.
2019-12-01T13:15:38Z wasamasa: I feel reminded of a scala project where I discovered the framework doesn't support more than 26 fields
2019-12-01T13:15:58Z mdhughes: But nobody likes (format "a: ~7,2F\n {25 times}" a {25 times}) or (print "a: " (padnum a 7 2) {25 times})
2019-12-01T13:18:00Z mdhughes: (string-format "a: ~(a)7,2f\n {25 times}" my-alist) is maybe less bad?
2019-12-01T13:18:56Z jcowan: wasamasa: Yes, that annoyed me too.  Scala has fixed it now, though
2019-12-01T13:19:07Z mdhughes: I'm using letters there, but it'd be anything from RPG character stats to purchase orders to Internet RFC message formatting.
2019-12-01T13:20:34Z jcowan: It's clear that at 25 parameters you definitely don't want positional parameters like that, but named parameters scale better (plus the reordering advantage I mentioned)
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2019-12-01T14:17:46Z jcowan: I have just switched the pre-SRFI to use $ insteaad of &
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2019-12-01T14:22:20Z mdhughes: Yay!
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2019-12-01T14:29:29Z Riastradh: jcowan: You should make sure to use barycentric interpolation at Chebyshev nodes.  Much nicer properties than the naive alternatives!
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2019-12-01T14:31:27Z jcowan: Hardly relevant, since I am going to flush the term "interpolate" anyway
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2019-12-01T14:32:57Z jcowan: ("Flush" is one of those irritating auto-antonyms)
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2019-12-01T15:19:37Z gwatt: mdhughes jcowan: I don't know if this interests you, but I did write up a very simple interpolation library a while back: https://github.com/gwatt/dollar-sign
2019-12-01T15:21:02Z jcowan: Interesting.
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2019-12-01T16:00:15Z la_zaifir: Yeah, SRFI 158 combinators win over format strings IMHO.  More Schemes should provide them.
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2019-12-01T16:01:13Z la_zaifir: *159, I mean.  And now 166.
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2019-12-01T17:24:04Z wasamasa: gwatt: cute trick with omitting the space between the dollar and the string
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2019-12-01T17:28:45Z belmarca: we're going with #{} in gerbil
2019-12-01T17:29:52Z belmarca: (def name "world") (quasistring "Hello, #{name}!") => "Hello, world!"
2019-12-01T17:30:01Z belmarca: with ##{} for expansion-time interpolation
2019-12-01T17:30:57Z belmarca: (lambda (name) (quasistring "Hello, #{name}. The current time is ##{(time->seconds (current-time))}"))
2019-12-01T17:31:20Z belmarca: that would fix the time to time at expansion and never update
2019-12-01T17:31:26Z belmarca: vs using just #{} which is for runtime
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2019-12-01T18:13:49Z gwatt: belmarca: what gerbil use braces for? I see it in some examples but I'm not familiar with gerbil's idiosyncrasies
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2019-12-01T18:45:32Z mdhughes: One of the major advantages of format strings is i18n. Especially if they have named placeholders, you can put those in a config file, give that file to translators, and get usable layout strings for any language. You can't do that with combinators.
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2019-12-01T19:03:28Z jcowan: Exactly so, which is why I want a separation of concerns: combinators for formatting proper, string-interpolate for i18n
2019-12-01T19:04:09Z jcowan: belmarca: Why braces particularly?
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2019-12-02T00:31:26Z belmarca: gwatt braces are interpreted as method calls by the reader
2019-12-02T00:31:38Z belmarca: {some-point-method my-point}
2019-12-02T00:32:39Z belmarca: jcowan why braces for interpolation? #{} is a neat delimiter IMO. Plus the real issue IMO is having proper runtime vs expansion-time control, not necessarily which delimiter to use.
2019-12-02T00:36:43Z Riastradh: Maybe you should use 〈〉!
2019-12-02T00:37:07Z Riastradh: Or maybe ⸨⸩?
2019-12-02T00:37:34Z Riastradh: «» might cause confusion about which way the quotation vs unquotation marks go.
2019-12-02T00:40:27Z belmarca: are you talking about interpolation?
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2019-12-02T00:41:32Z belmarca: the parser looks for #{ or ##{ and calls read on what follows. If it's not followed by a closing }, raise.
2019-12-02T00:42:00Z belmarca: I wouldn't even know how to type〈〉
2019-12-02T00:42:43Z Riastradh: I dunno, you could feed \langle\rangle\bye through pdftex and copy & paste from the resulting PDF?
2019-12-02T00:43:46Z belmarca: yes I will send a PR adding that to the gerbil docs!
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2019-12-02T01:33:58Z jcowan: Or just cut and paste them from the IRC
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2019-12-02T04:56:33Z [rg]: erkin: thank you
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2019-12-02T06:25:04Z mdhughes: On Mac, « is opt-\, » is sh-opt-\, but there's no narrow-angle-bracket keys, would have to dig thru Unicode picker.
2019-12-02T06:27:37Z pjb: I use emacs anyways… opt is mapped to A- to give me free keys to bind my own commands…
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2019-12-02T06:39:30Z Riastradh: M-x insert-char RET LEFT ANGLE BRACKET RET
2019-12-02T06:41:49Z pjb: or: C-x 8 RET
2019-12-02T06:42:46Z pjb: Perhaps it's possible to modify the tabnle used by insert-char?
2019-12-02T06:43:05Z pjb: I mean, the key translations starting with C-x 8.
2019-12-02T06:43:53Z mdhughes: But some of us like to use a text editor.
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2019-12-02T06:59:47Z Riastradh: (`C-x 8 <' and `C-x 8 >' give guillemets; not sure offhand if there's a shorter way to enter angle brackets.)
2019-12-02T07:00:11Z Riastradh: (Amusingly, there's also ‹›.)
2019-12-02T07:16:05Z kritixilithos: in mit-scheme, how do I run a program without entering repl mode? `scheme --load script.scm` enters repl mode and with it all the extraneaous output I don't want (so adding (exit) wouldn't fix it)
2019-12-02T07:20:55Z Riastradh: --batch-mode
2019-12-02T07:22:02Z pjb: or --quiet it's the same.   scheme --quiet --no-init-file --load p.scm  --eval '(quit)'
2019-12-02T07:29:13Z kritixilithos: thanks that works, now I'm trying to write a program that sums input numbers (seperated by newlines) from STDIN, but it doesn't print anything, it only recognises the end of input when I terminate the input with [a-z]+
2019-12-02T07:30:17Z kritixilithos: basically calling a `let loop` with `(read)` recursively until `number?` is falsey
2019-12-02T07:32:34Z kritixilithos: I suppose I'll need to use read-line instead
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2019-12-02T07:54:23Z kritixilithos: `(write(let l((x 0))(if(real? x)(+(l(read))x)0)))` does the task in other schemes (like chicken), but doesn't work in mit-scheme, mit-scheme appears to halt the program
2019-12-02T07:55:30Z kritixilithos: from what I understand in the docs, and end-of-file object is supposed to be returned, but it apparently isn't
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2019-12-02T09:23:05Z pjb: kritixilithos: if you use --load, then it will load.  load is a REL, not a REPL.
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2019-12-02T09:27:29Z kritixilithos: thanks for the distinction
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2019-12-02T09:33:19Z pjb: kritixilithos: my advice would be that your file does not have side effects when you load it apart from defining things.  Then you can call a main function explicitely in the script wrapper.
2019-12-02T09:33:43Z pjb: The file would contain: (define (foo …) …)  … (define main () (foo))
2019-12-02T09:34:40Z pjb: and you would have as script myscript that would contain:  #!/bin/sh \n scheme --quiet --no-init-file --load myscript.scm  --eval '(main)' --eval '(quit)'
2019-12-02T09:35:08Z pjb: this way, you can also load the source myscript.scm without running it, to debug it interactively in the REPL.
2019-12-02T09:35:22Z kritixilithos: ah, I see
2019-12-02T09:35:50Z pjb: Of course this implies that all I/O must be explicit.  You must print your results.
2019-12-02T09:38:23Z kritixilithos: from above, do you know why `(read)` doesn't seem to give eof? it works as expected in other schemes though
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2019-12-02T09:47:38Z pjb: I don't know. It should return an eof object, but apparently, this stops the program immediately.
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2019-12-02T10:07:25Z kritixilithos: from the mailing list https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/mit-scheme-devel/2019-09/msg00000.html, this appears to be a common problem with no real solution
2019-12-02T10:07:47Z kritixilithos: okay I'll convert to chicken now
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2019-12-02T11:53:20Z mdhughes: http://community.schemewiki.org/?module-example-mit-scheme
2019-12-02T11:59:35Z mdhughes: I may go modify each of those to only run main if DEBUG isn't set in environment, so you could then DEBUG=1 main.sh or whatever.
2019-12-02T12:00:15Z mdhughes: But that gets into "actual program functionality" not "how do you write this Scheme with modules".
2019-12-02T12:00:57Z mdhughes: Some Schemes let you know if you're in the REPL or not, which is better, but some don't.
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2019-12-02T13:51:31Z sarna: hi, how can I return a list with a thing changed at some index? I mean (foo '(1 2 3) 0 4) would return '(4 2 3)
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2019-12-02T14:00:53Z fizzie: The most straightforward way would be the recursive: to change a value at index 0, return a new list formed from the new value and the tail of the old list; to change a value at any index I, return a new list made out of the head of the old list and changing the I-1'th value in the tail of the old list.
2019-12-02T14:01:28Z fizzie: So (define (foo l i v) (if (= i 0) (cons v (tail l)) (cons (car l) (foo (tail l) (- i 1) v)))) or somewhere along those lines.
2019-12-02T14:03:54Z sarna: oh, I thought there was some standard function for that. thanks anyway, I'll try this :)
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2019-12-02T14:36:20Z DKordic: sarna: What do You think about: "(setf (index aCollection aKey) aValue)"?
2019-12-02T14:37:02Z DKordic: ""setf"" is an abbreviation of ""set! Form"".
2019-12-02T14:37:14Z sarna: DKordic: I have some troubles finding docs for that.. is setf side-effect-free?
2019-12-02T14:37:34Z fizzie: There is a list-set! (in r7rs-small), but it modifies the list. Although I guess you could (let ((copy (apply list l))) (list-set! copy 0 4) copy). Arguably though, if you end up wanting to use a list as if it was a vector, it might be a sign it should in fact be a vector.
2019-12-02T14:37:34Z DKordic: Could be either way.
2019-12-02T14:38:28Z sarna: I ended up splitting the list (take, drop) and inserting the element in-between
2019-12-02T14:39:36Z DKordic: sarna: The most important question is what some would call API.
2019-12-02T14:40:34Z sarna: well, I just want to change one element at some index, not modifying the underlying list
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2019-12-02T14:43:49Z DKordic: Note that List is more abstract than (Singly) Linked List.  For example [[W:conc-tree_list]].
2019-12-02T14:46:10Z sarna: hmm, never heard of it
2019-12-02T14:46:17Z sarna: I'm using gerbil scheme
2019-12-02T14:46:22Z sarna: (which runs on top of gambit0
2019-12-02T14:46:25Z sarna: )*
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2019-12-02T15:05:09Z pjb: (define (foo l i v) (set-car! (nth-cdr l i) v))
2019-12-02T15:05:23Z pjb: (define (nthcdr i l) (if (= 0 i) l (nthcdr (- i 1) l))) (define (foo l i v) (set-car! (nthcdr i l) v)) (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) (foo l 3 4) l) -> (4 2 3)
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2019-12-03T08:53:44Z jusss`: is (+1) a continuation?
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2019-12-03T10:20:42Z zig: a continuation takes a continuation as argument, so I would say +1 is not a continuation by itself.
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2019-12-04T10:03:39Z zig: somewhat off-topic: another take on versioned data, rdbms style: https://github.com/liquidata-inc/dolt
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2019-12-04T10:16:34Z zig: at last I found a usecase for the nstore in my search-engine project: quick and dirty prototyping. Like I wrote on SRFI mailing list, nstore is very handy as generic store when you do not know in advance what will be the required fields or just as a quick fix until you move to proper record store (aka. row store) and fine tuned indices.
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2019-12-04T14:16:15Z jcowan: Dolt looks brilliant
2019-12-04T14:16:35Z jcowan: it interests me in particular because it is an example of a rare design pattern: smart client, dumb server
2019-12-04T14:16:58Z jcowan: as is git
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2019-12-05T10:05:31Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-12-05T11:40:55Z mdhughes: (let bot () (display "rudybot: la\n") (sleep 60) (bot))
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2019-12-05T12:31:32Z zig: rudybot: what is explicit renaming macro?
2019-12-05T12:31:41Z rudybot: zig: Or is there at least a comprehensive list of end-user hygienic macro systems ? The ones I know so far: syntax-rules, [reverse] syntactic closures, implicit/explicit renaming, syntax-case, SRFI-72
2019-12-05T12:32:03Z zig: rudybot: thank you!
2019-12-05T12:32:07Z rudybot: zig: Thank you for the idea at least. I believe that would be a good way to do things.
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2019-12-05T12:40:47Z Zipheir: zig: Don't listen to rudybot.  They'll tell you anything you want to hear.
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2019-12-05T13:00:14Z Zipheir: Also, PSA: Whoever rudybot is quoting is wrong--IR/ER macros aren't hygienic.
2019-12-05T13:04:22Z aeth: rudybot: what do you think about Zipheir's insight?
2019-12-05T13:04:28Z rudybot: aeth: But that didn't stop me from learning to program, Zipheir
2019-12-05T13:04:37Z aeth: woah
2019-12-05T13:06:43Z Zipheir: Heh.
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2019-12-05T13:35:25Z gwatt: Zipheir: IR macros are by default hygienic
2019-12-05T13:37:15Z jcowan: I think whoever said that (might have been me) meant *potentially* hygienic: that is, it is possible to write hygienic macros in them (unlike define-macro which is always non-hygienic).  Of course, only syntax-rules *compels* hygiene.
2019-12-05T13:42:44Z gwatt: I would call it a bit stronger than potentially hygienic, at least regarding syntax-case and ir transformers
2019-12-05T13:42:51Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Why do you say `aren't hygienic'?
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2019-12-05T13:54:03Z Zipheir: Yeah, sorry, I was thinking of ER macros, and specifically what jcowan said, i.e. that writing unhygienic macros is quite possible.
2019-12-05T13:54:50Z Riastradh: Zipheir: rudybot was parroting about `hygienic macro _systems_'.
2019-12-05T13:55:35Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I don't quite understand the distinction.
2019-12-05T13:55:58Z jcowan: It's really only macros, not macro systems, that are hygienic or not.
2019-12-05T13:56:18Z Riastradh: defmacro doesn't provide a reliable way to write hygienic macros.
2019-12-05T13:56:20Z Riastradh: ER does.
2019-12-05T13:56:34Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-12-05T13:56:40Z jcowan: Syntax-rules can only produce hygienic macros (though they can be "pseudo-non-hygienic"), define-macro can't produce hygienic macros.  All the other systems can do either.
2019-12-05T13:56:45Z Riastradh: Hence ER is a hygienic macro system, while defmacro is not.
2019-12-05T13:57:35Z jcowan: Thus it is fair to call ER (for example) a hygienic macro system, but it is also fair to call it a non-hygienic macro system.
2019-12-05T13:57:48Z Zipheir: That's perfectly sensible.
2019-12-05T13:57:56Z jcowan preens
2019-12-05T13:57:56Z Riastradh: That's kind of silly.
2019-12-05T13:58:12Z Zipheir: Hah.
2019-12-05T13:58:17Z jcowan: It depends on the context which is more plausible to assert.
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2019-12-05T13:58:45Z jcowan: the words "obligate" and "facultative" may be useful here
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2019-12-06T18:06:16Z zig: https://www.w3.org/2019/12/pressrelease-wasm-rec.html.en
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2019-12-06T18:50:14Z jayemar: being in this channel I have to ask: is there a scheme->wasm crosspiler that people have had success using?
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2019-12-06T18:52:16Z jcowan: jayemar: Have you played with Schism?
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2019-12-06T19:21:25Z jayemar: jcowan I have not.  Is it something worth looking in to?
2019-12-06T19:22:06Z jcowan: It was designed by a Googler as a way of playing with wasm, that's about all I know (from the README).  Try it and see!  Become the Schism expert!
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2019-12-06T19:26:45Z jayemar: ha alrighty, maybe I'll give it a whirl this weekend
2019-12-06T19:28:10Z zig: This article is excellent: https://tonsky.me/blog/disenchantment/
2019-12-06T19:29:04Z zig: I think that is an idea that scheme must keep in mind while evolving to be more pragmatic, that is, it must remain useable and easy.
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2019-12-06T19:48:08Z jcowan: zig: +1
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2019-12-06T20:06:07Z decent-username: Good evening. If somone of you is using the "Geiser" package for Emacs, could you maybe answer my question: "How does the history in Geiser work? When pressing M-p, it doesn't show the previously typed form for some reason. Why's that?"
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2019-12-06T20:08:33Z decent-username: Actually... I think it now behaves the way I expected. Weird.
2019-12-06T20:08:44Z decent-username: Computers are confusing.
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2019-12-06T20:32:07Z travishinkelman: Is there a way to extract the arguments for the lambda expression as a list of symbols? I mean the actual symbols used in the expression and not the values bound to those symbols. Thanks.
2019-12-06T20:33:43Z pjb: travishinkelman: (second '(lambda (a b c) (+ a b c))) #| --> (a b c) |#
2019-12-06T20:34:07Z pjb: travishinkelman: probably you meant something else.
2019-12-06T20:34:32Z pjb: But (lambda (a b c) (+ a b c)) is a lambda expression, and the arguments is the lambda-list which is the second element of the lambda expression.
2019-12-06T20:34:38Z pjb: I cannot do anything to change that.
2019-12-06T20:35:13Z travishinkelman: Would I then need to use eval to run that lambda expression from within another procedure?
2019-12-06T20:35:38Z pjb: If you wanted to call a procedure compiled from this lambda expression, yes.
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2019-12-06T20:36:45Z pjb: Clearly, lambda expressions are source code. If you are processing them such as extracting the argument list, you are either working in a meta-program, or in a macro.
2019-12-06T20:37:10Z pjb: In both cases, you have the opportunity to use the lambda expression both to manipulate it, and to compile it.
2019-12-06T20:37:22Z pjb: or include it in the macro-expansion to give it to the compiler.
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2019-12-06T20:38:59Z pjb: the point being that in a macro, you don't need to call eval or compile yourself, you just include the lambda-expression, or the transformed lambda-expression in the expansion of the macro, and let the compiler do its job.
2019-12-06T20:39:35Z travishinkelman: Yeah, I’m new to Scheme and starting to dabble in the metaprogramming aspects, but the concepts have yet to congeal. I poked around with eval, but bailed when I was getting inconsistent behavior (presumably due to my confusion about the evaluation environment).
2019-12-06T20:42:05Z pjb: travishinkelman: indeed, using eval is not easy.
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2019-12-06T20:49:42Z jcowan: travishinkelman: The main point is that eval makes only the *global* environment available to the expression it (compiles and) evaluates
2019-12-06T20:50:05Z jcowan: The lexical environment where eval is called is completely irrelevant to it
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2019-12-06T20:50:52Z jcowan: (Actually there are multiple global environments, but the usual one is the result of calling interaction-environment, so most calls to eval are (eval s-expression (interactive-environment)).
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2019-12-06T20:51:41Z travishinkelman: That’s helpful. Thanks.
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2019-12-07T05:08:20Z mjsir911: is there a `if __name__ == '__main__'` for scheme? I want to execute extra code if this is the main file being run or if being imported from somewhere else
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2019-12-07T05:43:58Z aeth: mjsir911: one thing you can do is to have a separate file essentially do main() (or in this case (main))
2019-12-07T05:44:26Z aeth: then as library it won't be run because you run it from a separate file
2019-12-07T05:44:50Z aeth: (there might be a direct equivalent, but it won't be portable unless I'm mistaken, so you'd have to specify which Scheme)
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2019-12-07T12:41:58Z mdhughes: mjsir911: You can use (cond-expand) for a few states: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-0/srfi-0.html
2019-12-07T12:42:28Z mdhughes: Chicken has https://api.call-cc.org/5/doc/chicken/standard-extensions/cond-expand
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2019-12-07T13:09:16Z mdhughes: Just occurred to me, you can also check the equivalent of argv 0 in some Schemes. Chicken has (program-name) which will generally be your script or executable name.
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2019-12-07T14:57:03Z decent-username: Hi, what's the difference between using `let' to create local variables for a closure, and using multiple `define' statements to create local variables for a closure?
2019-12-07T14:57:57Z decent-username: probably just personal preference right?
2019-12-07T15:00:07Z Riastradh: Using let, the expressions can't refer recursively to the newly bound variables; using define, they can.
2019-12-07T15:00:39Z decent-username: That's a good point.
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2019-12-07T18:22:50Z mdhughes: Thus letrec* exists.
2019-12-07T18:23:00Z mdhughes: let*, letrec
2019-12-07T18:23:09Z zig: too
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2019-12-07T18:23:44Z zig: fwiw, I find define in the body of let poor style. I have no clue why.
2019-12-07T18:24:31Z mdhughes: I think it's tidier and clearer about the scope to use let; define seems like it should only be at toplevel. But it's not illegal to define…
2019-12-07T18:25:47Z mdhughes: And if you have a whole bunch of variables referring to each other, your function's reaching a point it should be broken up.
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2019-12-07T18:46:27Z Zipheir: zig: Agreed.  define in lambda, good.  define in let ... something needs to be refactored.
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2019-12-07T19:01:47Z Riastradh: I find internal definitions much easier to read than letrec.
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2019-12-07T19:16:11Z ecraven: unfortunately, some obvious places don't directly allow them (at least in r6rs), like `when' and `unless'
2019-12-07T19:16:22Z jcowan: I too prefer internal define to letrec*
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2019-12-07T19:16:45Z jcowan: mdhughes: State machines are the counterexample
2019-12-07T19:17:46Z Riastradh: ecraven: That's silly...
2019-12-07T19:18:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: chibi exhibits the same behaviour, so I'm assuming r7rs mandates this?
2019-12-07T19:18:14Z ecraven: (when #t (define x 3) x) -> error
2019-12-07T19:18:19Z Riastradh: I have no idea what R7RS mandates.
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2019-12-07T19:19:47Z jcowan: When is not a block, just a compound statement like cond; it can't have internal declarations.  Let and lambda are blocks
2019-12-07T19:19:50Z mdhughes: jcowan: Even then, I'd probably prefer all states to be toplevel functions. Hide it inside a module so it doesn't contaminate global.
2019-12-07T19:20:03Z ecraven: jcowan: *why* are they not blocks?
2019-12-07T19:20:14Z Riastradh: mdhughes: It is very easy to make blanket statements like that from an armchair!
2019-12-07T19:20:25Z jcowan shrugs
2019-12-07T19:20:58Z ecraven: to me, it definitely seems as if there should be no difference between the body of a let, lambda, cond, when, unless and whatever else has a "body"
2019-12-07T19:20:59Z jcowan: "Yossi, why are you peeing on the sidewalk?"  "Stam, Ima" ["That's just the way it is, Mom"]
2019-12-07T19:21:00Z mdhughes: Mmm. I do have a comfy armchair with a blanket, but no, I'm doing web stuff today.
2019-12-07T19:21:26Z Riastradh: ecraven: I tend to agree.
2019-12-07T19:21:36Z jcowan: mdhughes: Your spinnerets are in good order, I hope.
2019-12-07T19:22:23Z mdhughes: https://youtu.be/ZnE3uyj9Grg
2019-12-07T19:23:00Z mdhughes: (NSFW, but it's Saturday)
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2019-12-07T19:25:56Z jcowan: Chibi is quite picky about where defines are allowed
2019-12-07T19:27:15Z jcowan: but this is "it is an error" territory, so other Schemes can be looser.
2019-12-07T19:27:28Z ecraven: well, that doesn't help if it makes things unportable
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2019-12-07T19:38:06Z Zipheir: "It is very easy to make blanket statements like that from, and only from, an armchair!"
2019-12-07T19:38:37Z Zipheir: Let's get our conditionals right.
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2019-12-07T20:56:53Z somebody: oppai
2019-12-07T20:57:33Z somebody: this is first time using irssi someone please reply
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2019-12-07T20:58:54Z ArthurStrong: somebody: reply
2019-12-07T20:59:14Z somebody: ??
2019-12-07T20:59:42Z ArthurStrong: somebody: !!
2019-12-07T20:59:49Z somebody: yes
2019-12-07T21:00:31Z somebody: Is this chat working
2019-12-07T21:00:47Z ArthurStrong: somebody: no, we are alone
2019-12-07T21:01:05Z somebody: oooooooooooooooooooo
2019-12-07T21:01:18Z somebody: I wana die now
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2019-12-07T21:04:26Z somebody_: wtf just happend??
2019-12-07T21:05:56Z somebody_: can someone teach me about this chat system i dont get it
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2019-12-07T21:09:11Z wasamasa: just lurk longer and you'll get it
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2019-12-07T21:19:47Z mdhughes: If you just disconnected, you'll need to change your nickname back to get rid of the _
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2019-12-07T21:21:13Z mdhughes: No, guess not, he's gone now.
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2019-12-07T21:51:29Z jcowan: An r7rs lint would be a Good Thing, looking for non-portable constructions
2019-12-07T21:52:31Z jcowan: It would need to know the module-to-file mapping used by the Scheme in question
2019-12-07T21:52:43Z jcowan: (Or r6rs lint, for that matter)
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2019-12-08T11:07:28Z lockywolf_: Are there some studies of pedagogical effect of forward-referencing?
2019-12-08T11:07:32Z lockywolf_: *any
2019-12-08T11:07:48Z wasamasa: yeah, I think Dr. Lockywolf is working on one
2019-12-08T11:09:27Z lockywolf_: hahaha
2019-12-08T11:09:43Z lockywolf_: Dr. Lockywolf would like to avoid this necessity.
2019-12-08T11:09:52Z wasamasa: welcome to scheme land
2019-12-08T11:10:22Z wasamasa: at some point you'll need to roll up those sleeves and get your hands dirty
2019-12-08T11:10:33Z wasamasa: because nobody else will
2019-12-08T11:10:46Z lockywolf_: Well, that's a very-very good point.
2019-12-08T11:10:55Z wasamasa: I tried fighting it for the longest time
2019-12-08T11:11:12Z wasamasa: and eventually just did the things I had the energy for
2019-12-08T11:11:23Z lockywolf_: The problem is that to accept forward references you'd have to really trust the person you are dealing with.
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2019-12-08T11:12:02Z lockywolf_: I knew too many people who died of believing fortune-tellers to blindly trust people.
2019-12-08T11:12:17Z wasamasa: surely you jest
2019-12-08T11:12:23Z lockywolf_: "jest"?
2019-12-08T11:12:34Z wasamasa: that's the stuff manga are made from
2019-12-08T11:12:45Z lockywolf_: I mean, I know that SICP authors are trustworthy people.
2019-12-08T11:12:48Z wasamasa: "I died from believing this fortune teller and got reborn into a different world"
2019-12-08T11:13:11Z lockywolf_: shit, my grandma believed a fortune-teller who had told her that "cancer is a conspiracy"
2019-12-08T11:13:40Z lockywolf_: "cos in the future you will see that it is all just a side-effect of a common cold"
2019-12-08T11:13:54Z wasamasa: that's something different and best treated by a healthy dose of psiram
2019-12-08T11:15:02Z lockywolf_: I don't see why I should a-priori trust Abelson and not trust a fortune-teller.
2019-12-08T11:15:20Z lockywolf_: Granted, Abelson is not writing about a medical subject.
2019-12-08T11:15:23Z wasamasa: because their expertise is applied to vastly different domains
2019-12-08T11:15:41Z lockywolf_: But the essense of forward-referencing is the same.
2019-12-08T11:15:42Z wasamasa: basing your life decisions on some random person's ramblings can result in death, sure
2019-12-08T11:15:55Z wasamasa: I don't see how reading SICP can kill me
2019-12-08T11:16:01Z lockywolf_: Unless the person is actually justifying his claims.
2019-12-08T11:17:37Z lockywolf_: Reading sicp is not vastly different from reading esotericism gurus for a newbie.
2019-12-08T11:18:01Z wasamasa: I guess Dr. Lockywolf won't be writing a worthwhile paper anytime soon
2019-12-08T11:18:11Z lockywolf_: Both are speaking about something hardly comprehensible, and promise enlightenment in the future.
2019-12-08T11:18:13Z wasamasa: if that's as far as your rigor goes, good luck
2019-12-08T11:18:27Z daviid: lockywolf_: bulshit
2019-12-08T11:18:58Z lockywolf_: daviid, it is indeed _not true_. But to understand it, you have to read a fair share.
2019-12-08T11:19:21Z lockywolf_: that's why I am genuinely curious about the effects of forward referencing in general
2019-12-08T11:19:43Z wasamasa: I feel reminded of that time someone posted inane questions comparing SICP and K&R a few times a day
2019-12-08T11:19:52Z wasamasa: they are not mystic texts, mind you
2019-12-08T11:21:09Z wasamasa: <johnhoe> Why should I read further than chapter 1 of SICP? Aren't all of the core principles included in chapter 1?
2019-12-08T11:21:19Z wasamasa: that's how far the delusion about it goes
2019-12-08T11:21:54Z lockywolf_: Well, a lot of books are like this actually.
2019-12-08T11:22:37Z lockywolf_: The first chapter points out the main issues, and the rest of the book repeats them again and again, so that you can learn by repeating.
2019-12-08T11:23:11Z wasamasa: <wickedtrippy> I'm a 17-year-old, beginner who wants to learn the logic behind the craft of programming and gain a deep understanding of it, as I think that is the most vital requirement to actually make good programs and obtain permission to spread into other sub-branches of the science. To do this, I've sought a good book, and was constantly told to read "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs"
2019-12-08T11:23:38Z lockywolf_: Well, sicp is really well-known.
2019-12-08T11:23:46Z wasamasa:  <crusty_the_fig> So, what did SICP do for *YOU*?
2019-12-08T11:26:28Z lockywolf_: I mean, to some extent, forward referencing encourages curiosity. Language textbooks are particularly prone to forward referencing.
2019-12-08T11:28:43Z lockywolf_: Perhaps I would like something like (unlet) in scheme?
2019-12-08T11:29:00Z wasamasa: makunbound
2019-12-08T11:29:23Z wasamasa: one of the famous lisp-2 things
2019-12-08T11:30:23Z lockywolf_: makunbound is mutative, isn't it?
2019-12-08T11:30:31Z wasamasa: yes
2019-12-08T11:30:36Z wasamasa: that's like the whole point of it
2019-12-08T11:30:48Z wasamasa: you introduced the binding, you undo it
2019-12-08T11:31:07Z lockywolf_: Nah, give me a couple of minutes for an example
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2019-12-08T11:35:20Z lockywolf_: http://paste.debian.net/1120067
2019-12-08T11:35:25Z lockywolf_: That's what I mean.
2019-12-08T11:35:46Z lockywolf_: Or maybe there is some other way of achieving the same effect?
2019-12-08T11:36:11Z lockywolf_: I mean, I can just (let ((table #f)))
2019-12-08T11:36:25Z wasamasa: the paste suggests you're mixing up strings with symbols
2019-12-08T11:36:37Z wasamasa: the display call would result in an error anyways
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2019-12-08T11:37:02Z lockywolf_: (display 'table) works fine
2019-12-08T11:37:29Z lockywolf_: At least with chibi 0.8
2019-12-08T11:37:44Z wasamasa: displaying an unbound value won't work
2019-12-08T11:38:13Z lockywolf_: That's exactly why there is a comment nearby.
2019-12-08T11:38:25Z wasamasa: which shows a string for who knows what reason
2019-12-08T11:39:00Z lockywolf_:  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2019-12-08T11:39:10Z lockywolf_: I expected schemy people be more tolerant to confusion.
2019-12-08T11:39:10Z wasamasa: have some rigor
2019-12-08T11:39:16Z wasamasa: go to #emacs for that
2019-12-08T11:39:34Z lockywolf_: Anyway, I would find this (unlet) useful.
2019-12-08T11:39:40Z wasamasa: or read some srfis and learn what kinds of details schemers obsess about
2019-12-08T11:39:59Z lockywolf_: I have read some srfis. :)
2019-12-08T11:40:09Z lockywolf_: Although there are many.
2019-12-08T11:41:44Z lockywolf_: #emacs people are quite skeptical about scheme :)
2019-12-08T11:42:03Z wasamasa: they're lacking rigor after all
2019-12-08T11:42:09Z Blukunfando: What are you trying to accomplish by calling ‘cons’ with one argument?
2019-12-08T11:42:17Z wasamasa: despite that there's a big group hoping for guilemacs
2019-12-08T11:42:26Z wasamasa: they're a fickle bunch
2019-12-08T11:43:19Z lockywolf_: http://paste.debian.net/1120070
2019-12-08T11:43:50Z lockywolf_: Blukunfando, in making this example, rigour was sacrificed for speed of creation.
2019-12-08T11:44:24Z lockywolf_: I meant (car). Or anything asking about the internals of the data structure.
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2019-12-08T11:46:51Z wasamasa: personally, I don't see the benefit of this construct
2019-12-08T11:46:55Z wasamasa: other than obfuscating code
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2019-12-08T11:48:59Z lockywolf_: Well, I certainly do. Too often I define setters and getters, and then never use them, because I forget about their existence.
2019-12-08T11:49:08Z lockywolf_: Which makes code messy.
2019-12-08T11:49:44Z wasamasa: how does unlet solve that?
2019-12-08T11:49:57Z wasamasa: are you trying to solve a non-technical problem with technology?
2019-12-08T11:50:20Z lockywolf_: If the underlying data structure is inside a procedure, I can make this procedure return a dispatcher to hide the underlying data structure. But within the procedure itself I make mistakes.
2019-12-08T11:50:44Z lockywolf_: No problems are non-technical.
2019-12-08T11:51:08Z wasamasa: you should really walk over to #emacs
2019-12-08T11:51:26Z wasamasa: people not reading documentation is not something you'll solve with technology
2019-12-08T11:52:02Z lockywolf_: Your opinion is of extreme importance to our company.
2019-12-08T11:52:13Z wasamasa: people not knowing how to program isn't solvable with technology either
2019-12-08T11:52:27Z lockywolf_: Arguably.
2019-12-08T11:52:46Z lockywolf_: People _are_ learning programming when it becomes unavoidable.
2019-12-08T11:53:07Z wasamasa: I'd like to see that happen with scheme
2019-12-08T11:53:16Z wasamasa: the only scenario I can think of is some guix user
2019-12-08T11:53:25Z wasamasa: who cannot use their system otherwise
2019-12-08T11:53:35Z wasamasa: but that begs the question, why are they using guix if they don't know scheme
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2019-12-08T11:54:57Z lockywolf_: You are certainly not in the mood today.
2019-12-08T11:55:32Z lockywolf_: People are just another model of computation.
2019-12-08T11:55:58Z wasamasa: that school of thought is known as determinism
2019-12-08T11:56:14Z lockywolf_: Maybe non-deterministic model ;)
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2019-12-08T11:56:32Z jmercouris: people would use guix for the same reason they would use nix
2019-12-08T11:56:40Z jmercouris: they need not know nix language or whatever it is called
2019-12-08T11:56:46Z lockywolf_: Having no girlfriend?
2019-12-08T11:56:49Z wasamasa: you do at some point
2019-12-08T11:56:50Z jmercouris: they just want a package manager that works, the underlying technology is irrelevant to them
2019-12-08T11:56:53Z wasamasa: it's inevitable
2019-12-08T11:57:03Z wasamasa: if I want something that works, there's plenty of debian derivatives
2019-12-08T11:57:03Z jmercouris: it is inevitable, but probably does not inform their decision directly
2019-12-08T11:57:18Z jmercouris: yes, but the debian derivatives are not reproducible
2019-12-08T11:57:32Z wasamasa: which again, isn't something I need for things to work
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2019-12-08T11:58:12Z jmercouris: what is guile scheme as related to scheme?
2019-12-08T11:58:14Z jmercouris: is it scheme + extra?
2019-12-08T11:58:26Z wasamasa: you can say that about every scheme implementation
2019-12-08T11:58:32Z lockywolf_: jmercouris, there is almost no "scheme"
2019-12-08T11:58:43Z jmercouris: I don't know anything about scheme, so my questions are quite naieve, sorry!
2019-12-08T11:58:47Z lockywolf_: bare scheme is almost unusable
2019-12-08T11:59:31Z lockywolf_: I mean, it's turing-complete and such, but you can't make much practical out of it.
2019-12-08T12:00:04Z lockywolf_: so everyone makes their own (often incompatible) extensions in order to make a practical language based on scheme
2019-12-08T12:00:05Z wasamasa: welcome to the turing tarpit
2019-12-08T12:00:35Z jmercouris: hm, interesting
2019-12-08T12:00:38Z lockywolf_: chibi-scheme is perhaps the closes to "bare scheme"
2019-12-08T12:00:52Z jmercouris: I guess that is the problem CL tries to get around
2019-12-08T12:01:00Z lockywolf_: although it also ships many non-standard libraries
2019-12-08T12:01:01Z jmercouris: by having a large enough spec, and language features to avoid deep fragmentation
2019-12-08T12:01:16Z jmercouris: that however increases the barrier to entry for making a CL
2019-12-08T12:01:23Z lockywolf_: it's not that CL is a widely-used language
2019-12-08T12:01:37Z jmercouris: no, and that's okay :-)
2019-12-08T12:01:53Z jmercouris: i know a lot of people are zealous about increasing adoption, but I'm okay with a small community
2019-12-08T12:12:19Z lockywolf_: A tar pit, or more accurately an asphalt pit or asphalt lake, is the result of a type of petroleum seep where subterranean bitumen leaks to the surface, creating a large area of natural asphalt.
2019-12-08T12:13:42Z lockywolf_: By the way, I know a place where lisp is learnt out of necessity. AutoCAD
2019-12-08T12:15:39Z jmercouris: True
2019-12-08T12:17:11Z wasamasa: even they went away from it
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2019-12-08T12:19:12Z lockywolf_: I don't understand how ensuring myself from errors would be a bad practice. I have numerous things in my life when I am solving non-technical problems technically. Even when throwing rubbish, I keep my trash bin near the exit so that when I am leaving home I can't miss it. We have alarms set to wake up us every day, although strictly speaking that is not necessary, we could just go to bed earlier.
2019-12-08T12:19:30Z lockywolf_: We are solving non-technical problems with technology all the time.
2019-12-08T12:21:03Z jmercouris: lockywolf_: i bet you are a huge fan of compile time checking
2019-12-08T12:21:28Z lockywolf_: I had a rant about it a few days ago, right on this channel.
2019-12-08T12:21:39Z wasamasa: in which case, why scheme at all
2019-12-08T12:22:01Z wasamasa: scheme is freedom from the tyranny of an inadequate type system
2019-12-08T12:23:00Z jmercouris: wasamasa: can you elaborate?
2019-12-08T12:23:10Z jmercouris: what is an 'inadequate' type system?
2019-12-08T12:23:16Z jmercouris: what is a type system? and what do you expect?
2019-12-08T12:23:21Z wasamasa: 90% of all statically typed ones
2019-12-08T12:23:39Z wasamasa: the remaining 10% is SML implementations
2019-12-08T12:23:50Z jmercouris: SML?
2019-12-08T12:24:03Z jmercouris: standard ml?
2019-12-08T12:24:05Z jmercouris: never heard of it
2019-12-08T12:24:18Z wasamasa: it's like the scheme of statically typed languages
2019-12-08T12:24:27Z wasamasa: covers just enough of a standard to write compilers
2019-12-08T12:24:56Z lockywolf_: Compile-time checking is not only about types.
2019-12-08T12:25:01Z wasamasa: it's used in academia to teach people how to write them
2019-12-08T12:25:29Z lockywolf_: Also, not necessarily compile-time checking. I am a huge fan of test-time checking.
2019-12-08T12:26:12Z wasamasa: its derivatives are better known, like ocaml, haskell, scala, f#
2019-12-08T12:26:37Z wasamasa: so far I've only used scala for work stuff and it's complete overkill
2019-12-08T12:26:49Z lockywolf_: The answer to the question "why scheme" is "because people I trust, suggested it, and am equally clueless about either scheme or its alternatives"
2019-12-08T12:27:51Z wasamasa: because you enjoy using it
2019-12-08T12:28:01Z wasamasa: same reason people craft turbines in their garage
2019-12-08T12:29:12Z lockywolf_: can't say I enjoy it. it's just whatever happened to be used for sicp and htcp
2019-12-08T12:29:14Z lockywolf_: *htdp
2019-12-08T12:29:46Z wasamasa: then don't use it
2019-12-08T12:29:52Z wasamasa: use python to get the things done you need
2019-12-08T12:29:56Z wasamasa: or C# or what have you
2019-12-08T12:32:00Z jmercouris: industry support is very powerful
2019-12-08T12:32:10Z lockywolf_: life not necessarily consists of doing what we like to do
2019-12-08T12:32:15Z jmercouris: it can take an otherwise inadquate environment and make it possible to do things, albeit poorly
2019-12-08T12:32:18Z jmercouris: just take a look at javascript
2019-12-08T12:32:24Z jmercouris: dump tons of manpower and money into it and BOOM!
2019-12-08T12:32:25Z jmercouris: node js
2019-12-08T12:32:26Z jmercouris: ELECTRON
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2019-12-08T15:47:12Z mdhughes: "Why Scheme" has practical answers. It's fast, easy to do FFI to C libraries, has a clean module system. All depending on impl, of course.
2019-12-08T15:49:09Z mdhughes: I can solve most problems in about 1.5-2x the LOC of Python, and get 10x faster compiled binaries.
2019-12-08T15:53:35Z belmarca: mdhughes if you count the total LOC of the libraries used, I don't think you're writing twice as many lines of code in scheme
2019-12-08T15:53:40Z belmarca: than in python
2019-12-08T15:53:58Z mdhughes: Why would I count LOC I didn't write?
2019-12-08T15:54:23Z mdhughes: If I count the LOC of my OS, every program is 10M LOC + a few thousand.
2019-12-08T15:54:29Z belmarca: because sometimes you're the author of the library? :)
2019-12-08T15:54:57Z belmarca: in my experience python has more locs than the equivalent scheme program
2019-12-08T15:56:29Z mdhughes: Oh, very much not. My Advents of Code for Python, Scheme, and JavaScript are something like X, 2X, 4X.
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2019-12-08T15:58:47Z wasamasa: just wait until you really need a particular library
2019-12-08T15:59:10Z mdhughes: And then what?
2019-12-08T16:00:09Z mdhughes: About 50/50 chance Chicken or SLIB or some random repo has a solution I needed, or I write a page of FFI code to a C library.
2019-12-08T16:00:31Z wasamasa: or you'll give up and use something else
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2019-12-08T16:00:50Z mdhughes: In Python, if it's not in stdlib or pip, buckle down for 100 hours of writing insane CPython FFI code.
2019-12-08T16:01:12Z wasamasa: not everything is a C wrapper, lol
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2019-12-08T16:01:38Z mdhughes: No, but every problem has been solved in C, so if you have an FFI hammer, that nail gets pounded.
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2019-12-08T16:02:48Z mdhughes: I'm spoiled by having used Objective-C for 15 years, where the Objective is Smalltalk, and the C is just C. No FFI needed. Every other lang sucks.
2019-12-08T16:03:08Z mdhughes: But other langs are portable. So…
2019-12-08T16:04:02Z wasamasa: some have been solved in C++, others in java
2019-12-08T16:04:13Z wasamasa: like, suppose you wanted to use z3 to solve a particularly weird sudoku variant
2019-12-08T16:05:06Z wasamasa: you then discover it offers APIs for C++, .NET, java, ocaml and python
2019-12-08T16:05:13Z wasamasa: my first instinct is to just use python
2019-12-08T16:06:10Z jcowan: There is nothing wrong in principle with "unlet" if you understand it as providing access to the outer binding of the variable.  If course if there *is* no outer binding you are screwed, but that's your lookout.
2019-12-08T16:06:11Z mdhughes: You can't solve a sudoko yourself?
2019-12-08T16:06:22Z wasamasa: wrapping the C++ in C is doable, but tedious
2019-12-08T16:06:37Z jcowan: I certainly can't, not without far more effort than I am willing to put into it.
2019-12-08T16:06:44Z wasamasa: just trust me on the "particularly weird sudoku variant" part
2019-12-08T16:07:08Z wasamasa: if you manage solving the one I'm thinking of by hand, then you've well deserved those game points
2019-12-08T16:07:16Z mdhughes: That's the archetype of a min-max solver, which has been a LISP selling point for 60 years.
2019-12-08T16:07:46Z wasamasa: I've solved it in 30 minutes by adapting a z3 sudoku example
2019-12-08T16:08:02Z wasamasa: I don't think I could do it with the same speed from scratch in scheme
2019-12-08T16:08:11Z mdhughes: OK, or just look at red queens and figure out how that's the same problem.
2019-12-08T16:08:24Z mdhughes: s/red/eight/
2019-12-08T16:08:37Z mdhughes: (too much Alice)
2019-12-08T16:08:42Z wasamasa: again, it's a sufficiently different problem that eight queens doesn't apply
2019-12-08T16:09:33Z mdhughes: The pattern of fitting patterns into place, and backtracking, is exactly the same code. Only the "is it solved" and "next option" functions change.
2019-12-08T16:10:13Z wasamasa: funny that you can say that without knowing the extra constraints
2019-12-08T16:10:40Z mdhughes: You haven't specified the constraints, but I don't care, because you just code those into your is-it-solved? and next-option functions.
2019-12-08T16:11:15Z jcowan: Well, yes.  But that is hardly better than trying to sort a card deck by shuffling the cards and waiting until they are right.
2019-12-08T16:11:20Z wasamasa: exactly
2019-12-08T16:11:29Z wasamasa: I don't think it would finish doing its work in 90 seconds
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2019-12-08T16:12:04Z jcowan: Sometimes you have no other recourse, but it's better to have at least a heuristic (like alpha-beta pruning in strategy games) to guide search.
2019-12-08T16:12:09Z mdhughes: A normal sudoku is 9x9 or 15x15, it's not going to boil the oceans solving it.
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2019-12-09T07:33:55Z zig: why is it bad to cross post an email to several mailing list?
2019-12-09T07:38:26Z mdhughes: unsubscribe
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2019-12-09T07:41:52Z lockywolf_: zig, maybe because people don't like seeing copies of messages?
2019-12-09T07:44:07Z lockywolf_: friends, in SICP, there is an interesting topic, even two, on information propagation from a unit to a unit. One is about circuit simulation, the other one about constraint propagation. Are there any systems that use this idea? I am aware of Simulink, but it is (a) paid-for, (b) heavily dependent on Matlab
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2019-12-09T07:48:28Z lockywolf_: I am also aware of comsol and ansys. But these two guys seem to be quite specialized.
2019-12-09T07:58:16Z tolja: Constraint propagation smells like prolog
2019-12-09T08:06:50Z zig: lockywolf_: you might be interested by the paper "the art of the propagator"
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2019-12-09T08:20:56Z lockywolf: zig, thanks, looking at it
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2019-12-09T08:40:14Z zig: jcowan: re dolt and thick client, why do you think it is good to have such thing?  I copied the idea for a project (nomunofu), I want to know what is your rationale for adopting the "thick client" idea, in particular in the case of dolt?
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2019-12-09T12:16:17Z jcowan: zig: Not so much a good idea as an interesting idea: it's not a design strategy used much.
2019-12-09T12:17:06Z jcowan: I should say, not so much good or bad as interesting
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2019-12-09T12:19:31Z jcowan: Finger was an early example of this design
2019-12-09T12:20:07Z jcowan: originally there was just a local program you could invoke for information on the other users on the (timeshared) computer you were connected to:
2019-12-09T12:20:09Z wasamasa: thick clients tend to have curious security faults because the designers assume nobody would use a malicious client
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2019-12-09T12:20:37Z jcowan: That's true: finger was one of the accesses for the Great Worm
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2019-12-09T12:20:53Z jcowan: but that was just a buffer overrun in the (thin) server.
2019-12-09T12:21:02Z jmercouris: opinions on SICP?
2019-12-09T12:21:13Z jmercouris: I'm reading it now, and I'm not liking it as much as people say
2019-12-09T12:21:25Z jcowan: What is your goal in reading it?
2019-12-09T12:21:48Z jmercouris: learning?
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2019-12-09T12:22:09Z jcowan: Doubtless, but what is it that you expected to learn?
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2019-12-09T12:22:26Z jmercouris: I don't know what I expect to learn, other than my colleagues have suggested it
2019-12-09T12:22:36Z mdhughes: SICP's a great book for learning CompSci using Scheme. I like TSPL much better for learning Scheme to program in.
2019-12-09T12:23:07Z jmercouris: I don't feel like I am learning much though, I am having trouble with the way the author writes, it reads way too much like a scientific paper
2019-12-09T12:23:20Z jmercouris: which is of course not conducive to learning, but to research and dissemination of information...
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2019-12-09T12:23:36Z mdhughes: Also, watch the videos with the book. Stop when the chapter breaks and do the book's problems, like all the way through.
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2019-12-09T12:24:52Z mdhughes: I've probably watched SICP videos thru 3 times? since the '80s, and got more out of it (and got further) on later times.
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2019-12-09T12:25:01Z jmercouris: three times?
2019-12-09T12:25:04Z jmercouris: damn
2019-12-09T12:25:09Z jmercouris: I've never watched anything more than twice
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2019-12-09T12:25:23Z mdhughes: Not in a row, like a decade+ apart.
2019-12-09T12:25:32Z jmercouris: yes, me too
2019-12-09T12:25:46Z jmercouris: once I read something or watch it once I have a lot of trouble reading it again
2019-12-09T12:26:16Z jmercouris: I just can't do it, it's not like I remember literally EVERYTHING I've ever read, I just really don't enjoy the experience again because I know little snippets of what will be said
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2019-12-09T12:26:35Z mdhughes: These are not like an action movie; they're technical content you just won't understand fully the first time. So you watch, read the book, do the problems.
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2019-12-09T12:27:28Z jmercouris: Yeah :-D
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2019-12-09T12:29:02Z mdhughes: For just "I can program and need to know how to do X in Scheme", TSPL is very direct. It's R6RS, so you do it in Chez Scheme or maybe Racket, or you have to translate a few functions to R7RS equivalents.
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2019-12-09T12:31:01Z jmercouris: I'm not particularly interested in learning Scheme, I already know quite a bit of Common Lisp
2019-12-09T12:31:08Z jmercouris: I figured this would be a better channel to ask about the book though
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2019-12-09T12:31:40Z jmercouris: I understand they are two different languages, but CL fits my purposes much better at the current time
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2019-12-09T12:34:32Z wasamasa: time to practice an ancient rite of passage: solving SICP in your favorite programming language!
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2019-12-09T12:40:48Z jmercouris: well I just installed mit scheme, i was going to use the actual language in the book... though I suppose nothing is stopping me from doing it in CL
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2019-12-09T12:42:11Z wasamasa: people did it with C++, JS, clojure and who knows what else
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2019-12-09T13:28:53Z zig: "However, Scheme has traditionally mainly been used in teaching and computer science research and its implementors have thus prioritized small size, the functional programming paradigm and a certain kind of ‘cleanliness’ over more pragmatic features. As such, Scheme is considered far less popular than Common Lisp for building large-scale applications"
2019-12-09T13:28:59Z zig: https://academic.oup.com/bib/article/19/3/537/2769437
2019-12-09T13:29:07Z zig: see citation 24
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2019-12-09T13:33:02Z civodul: i guess that's true for some value of "traditionally" :-)
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2019-12-09T15:43:44Z jcowan works doggishly to build up the pragmatic features
2019-12-09T15:43:51Z jcowan: doggedly, rather
2019-12-09T15:43:59Z jcowan: my brain is broken
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2019-12-09T15:45:26Z Riastradh: *arf arf*
2019-12-09T15:45:35Z Riastradh: ...ruthlessly...  (`I wonder where Ruth is!')
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2019-12-09T15:59:15Z zig: this is based on an ancient review of scheme from 2005
2019-12-09T15:59:41Z zig: also one should not expect CL people to say nice things about scheme
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2019-12-09T16:16:00Z jcowan: Why not?  CL people are exempt from being civil?  (I must admit that I thought so when I first joined #lisp, but now the reason I'm mostly not there is the too-high traffic level.)
2019-12-09T16:24:15Z mdhughes: I've found Scheme very practical for real programs; but that's more so since fast, modern versions like Chez, Chicken, and recently Gerbil. (Racket's not fast; MIT Scheme's not modern)
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2019-12-09T16:35:59Z zig: on reddit, some person insisted to say that lisp means common lisp.
2019-12-09T16:36:13Z zig: maybe i generalize needlessly.
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2019-12-09T16:37:48Z jcowan: Yes, that genuinely is a point of disagreement, and it's true about #lisp (which is why ##lisp is the channel for all the Lisps) and comp.lang.lisp.
2019-12-09T16:38:38Z jcowan: But we have McCarthy on our side, who insisted that the use of "Lisp" for a particular Lisp should never be official, which is why the ANS is called "Common Lisp" and the ISO Standard (for a smaller but mostly-compatible dialect) is called "ISLisp".
2019-12-09T16:49:43Z mdhughes: "Lisp Family" puts it in the correct taxonomy hierarchy. Scheme & Common Lisp are different Genus.
2019-12-09T16:53:05Z mdhughes: But I learned just enough Common LISP to realize how much I disliked having two namespaces for vars & functions, and all the very weird shortcut names. Objective-C conditioned me to like long names.
2019-12-09T16:56:31Z mdhughes: I keep thinking I should write a book, "Software Engineering in Scheme" or some such. But also all my friends who've written books have been miserable and underpaid by it, so I go "hm, no".
2019-12-09T16:57:05Z wasamasa: you should ask the server racket author how much success they've had so far
2019-12-09T16:57:07Z wasamasa: or nils holm
2019-12-09T16:59:25Z zig: +1 I wanted to write a book about srfi-167, but given current scheme audiance, it will be mostly pain without gain.
2019-12-09T17:00:36Z zig: My most successful blog post so far, by a factor of 10 or 100, is related to srfi-167, but does not mention a particular programming language.
2019-12-09T17:01:19Z zig: at the same time, if there is not books, people will keep thinking that scheme is an ancient language for teaching dark art.
2019-12-09T17:02:52Z zig: a middle ground could be to write a book like "The Architecture Of Open Source Application", one particular book comes to mind that is called "500 lines or less" where high figures create small (interesting?) applications in their favorite programming language.
2019-12-09T17:03:46Z zig: that would be difficult to do, especially regarding distribution and sharing of income.
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2019-12-09T17:04:14Z mdhughes: I'd hopefully not just be selling to the Schemer audience, but to something like the Pragmatic books language tourist audience.
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2019-12-09T17:05:13Z mdhughes: I've written training materials for agile/XP, but was just collecting a salary then. My boss back then had a book… which he got something like $1 from every 3 months.
2019-12-09T17:05:51Z zig: what about self publising? isn't that worthwhile? nobody knows? nobody tells?
2019-12-09T17:06:04Z Zipheir: Define "worthwhile".
2019-12-09T17:06:07Z mdhughes: No marketing budget = no sales.
2019-12-09T17:06:48Z zig: worthwhile = readers + basic income + feedback
2019-12-09T17:06:58Z Zipheir: I'd like to write some Scheme material in Lojban, and thus exponentially cut my potential audience.
2019-12-09T17:07:11Z zig: Zipheir: good!
2019-12-09T17:07:20Z mdhughes: At least jcowan would buy one!
2019-12-09T17:08:11Z Zipheir: Heh
2019-12-09T17:08:40Z zig: Another approach, that has a lower barrier of entry (and lower income) is an blogging.
2019-12-09T17:09:00Z zig: scheme planet is not very intersting for instance, also it needs a re-design.
2019-12-09T17:09:13Z Zipheir: zig: Also, team blogging can reduce the barrier.
2019-12-09T17:09:52Z zig: Zipheir: do you think about: one blog, several authors, or something else?
2019-12-09T17:09:57Z mdhughes: I already blog, tho not weekly or anything, but my 160 or so views per post wouldn't pay bills even if I did run ads.
2019-12-09T17:10:17Z mdhughes: Does Planet Scheme have a blog submission form or address?
2019-12-09T17:10:19Z zig: 160 views. that a lot.
2019-12-09T17:10:19Z rgherdt: there's also the Beautiful Racket approach, no idea how big the paying audience is
2019-12-09T17:10:22Z Zipheir: zig: One blog, several authors is a good approach, provided everyone contributes semi-equally.
2019-12-09T17:10:23Z zig: per day?
2019-12-09T17:10:40Z mdhughes: I remember I tried to get into it ages ago and couldn't figure out how.
2019-12-09T17:11:53Z mdhughes: 25-60 actual page views and 160 feed hits every day. Dunno how many of those are just dead feed readers or live.
2019-12-09T17:12:02Z mdhughes: https://mdhughes.tech
2019-12-09T17:13:19Z Zipheir: Ads at this point are a major pain.  Everyone seems to expect you to track people, among other things.
2019-12-09T17:15:34Z mdhughes: I miss The Deck, they had non-tracking, non-animated, small banners, which fit the sites they were on. Of course they were never hugely profitable and died a few years ago.
2019-12-09T17:16:55Z zig: goaccess program tells me by analyzing the access.log that I have 30 unique vistor per day. Google Analytics (when I was running it) was saying something around 1 or 2 per day.
2019-12-09T17:18:27Z zig: (according to goaccess, it is mostly windows and chrome visitors)
2019-12-09T17:21:26Z zig: by the way, I plan to stop running https://scheme-lang.com/ (for which the HTTPS certificate expired), if I manage to put together the search engine, I will run it under the hyper.dev domain.
2019-12-09T17:21:48Z jcowan: There have never been so many books published as there are today, and it has never been harder to make money on them.  This is particularly true because book publishers have adopted the Hollywood model of only allowing a movie to be made if it will clearly be (God willing) a blockbuster.
2019-12-09T17:22:32Z mdhughes: I miss the '90s and early '00s, when I'd have 50K hits/mo on my blog; I wrote a ridiculous Python script to analyze where they came from and what they were doing.
2019-12-09T17:22:42Z jcowan: Thank you for the serif fonts!
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2019-12-09T17:23:16Z Zipheir: zig: Yes, the serif font comment was nice.
2019-12-09T17:23:17Z jcowan: My favorite blog is a language/linguistics blog, where much of the content is words in random languages, and the inability to distinguish I and l is truly maddening.
2019-12-09T17:23:56Z jcowan: Otherwise the blog's design is beautifully minimalist
2019-12-09T17:24:18Z zig: :)
2019-12-09T17:26:00Z Zipheir: I wonder if the days of serious blogging being profitable are over--the trend seems to be toward very short posts and a huge amount of social media activity.
2019-12-09T17:26:31Z Zipheir: "content-creation", an empty-sounding phrase if there ever was one.
2019-12-09T17:26:47Z zig: seems like youtube artists have some mind share.
2019-12-09T17:27:04Z Zipheir: Eh, no need for a jeremiad here.  Sorry.
2019-12-09T17:27:11Z mdhughes: Twitter and Facebook really close off a lot of what used to go into blogs.
2019-12-09T17:27:24Z zig: youtube and similar platforms.
2019-12-09T17:27:54Z mdhughes: Youtube's not profitable for a lot of people anymore. Most of the Let's Play community quit for Twitch, and even that makes less money than YT used to.
2019-12-09T17:29:10Z zig: some people manage to "leverage" their youtube and twitch presence into profitable positions at big companies..
2019-12-09T17:29:13Z mdhughes: Podcasting still makes good money. Because nobody has a paywall, there's no analytics, you have to get old-timey sponsor ads. But I have no patience to make podcasts; I listen to a few but less and less from years past.
2019-12-09T17:29:18Z jcowan: There is too much free-as-in-beer content for content to be worth money unless it directly leads to making money.  The Wall Street Journal can sustain its paywall, but few other newspapers will be able to.
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2019-12-09T17:30:33Z zig: the thing I keep hearing is: "what is the purpose of what you do? where does it lead to?"... I am afraid to answer only: visibility. I mainly don't know how to make money on my own.
2019-12-09T17:31:19Z jcowan: I write because I enjoy writing and enjoy being read
2019-12-09T17:31:51Z Zipheir: zig: Visibility for Scheme?
2019-12-09T17:32:17Z jcowan: A life that is all means and no ends is hardly a life at all.
2019-12-09T17:33:13Z Zipheir: Although "all ends and no means" has its downsides, too.
2019-12-09T17:34:05Z mdhughes: My blog started (originally on Gopher, then on WWW) as the public parts of my technical journal, bookmarks, daily link commentary. Last few years I've been leaning back into my DJ years by posting semi-daily playlists.
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2019-12-09T17:40:56Z Zipheir: zig: I'd like to see (and would happily work on) something like LtU for Scheme- and other-Lisp-related topics.
2019-12-09T17:41:59Z wasamasa: mdhughes: DJ CHICKEN?
2019-12-09T17:42:55Z Zipheir: I like DJ Gambit.
2019-12-09T17:42:58Z wasamasa: :D
2019-12-09T17:42:59Z mdhughes: KUOI-FM Moscow, 89.3 student radio with a sense of adventure. Listen every day and drink plenty of water. A century of tradition for over 50 years.
2019-12-09T17:43:19Z wasamasa: I like these mental pictures
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2019-12-09T17:44:12Z mdhughes: I did some live rave DJing back in the '90s, which was a nice way to make money from my l33t skills, but not terribly legal or sustainable.
2019-12-09T17:46:42Z jcowan: I have never heard of a DJ being arrested at a rave, though it might give you an unsavory reputation with other employers.
2019-12-09T17:47:09Z Zipheir: And an awesome reputation with everyone else.
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2019-12-09T17:48:40Z wasamasa: "They thought they got me, but let me go five minutes later."
2019-12-09T17:51:43Z zig: Zipheir: I am not familiar with Lambda the Ultimate website really.  They are already (many?) places where one can share their doing, I will happily add links or sections to https://github.com/scheme-live/bibliography or https://github.com/schemedoc/awesome-scheme/. The thing is contributions are rare.
2019-12-09T17:55:05Z Zipheir: zig: The problem remains that the Scheme community is fragmented by implementation.  There's plenty to be discussed, but it seems like it happens in implementation-specific places.
2019-12-09T17:55:26Z Zipheir: zig: ty for the links.
2019-12-09T17:56:16Z zig: not sure it happens implementation-specific places? I am subscribed to many (all) scheme mailling lists (except maybe chicken) and the volume is tiny.
2019-12-09T17:57:18Z wasamasa: their mailing lists are low-volume, too
2019-12-09T17:57:19Z Zipheir: zig: Yeah :-(
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2019-12-09T18:01:09Z jcowan: But many of the mailing lists and IRC channels have the same people on them all the same.  I am on #chicken, #guile, ##lisp, and #scheme at the moment.
2019-12-09T18:02:05Z jcowan: there is no chibi-specific channel, but if there was I would be on it.  I'm on chicken-users and chicken-hackers, chibi, guile, and maybe one or two other mailing lists, also comp.lang.scheme.
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2019-12-09T18:02:50Z wasamasa: I should experiment with other scheme implementations
2019-12-09T18:04:55Z zig: nowadays I am sabatical, but when I had a full-time job, it was very difficult to find time to hack on side-projects, hence have something meaningful to share.
2019-12-09T18:05:33Z zig: This lead me to wonder how GNU and Linux made it.
2019-12-09T18:05:56Z zig: that is they "made it" only with people free time.
2019-12-09T18:07:09Z Zipheir: We just need some giant like Microsoft to declare that Scheme is an un-American virus of Satan that must be stamped out.  That'll be good publicity.
2019-12-09T18:09:30Z Zipheir: zig: That was a different time, in a lot of ways.  The net is now flooded with random FOSS projects looking for contributors.
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2019-12-09T18:15:35Z zig: true.
2019-12-09T18:15:44Z zig: foss fatigue.
2019-12-09T18:17:13Z zig: you don't know how much 1TB of data is until you try to decompress a 100GB bz2 archive and 'watch ls' all the afternoon until now.
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2019-12-09T18:18:11Z zig: after I hope it finish before I go to sleep, anyway it will not matter much for what I need to do next, because it was reported that it takes 10 days to import the data in a database (written in Java)
2019-12-09T18:21:10Z zig: I found a trick to "capture" users with my program, I create the server in scheme (!) and the client in Python. For the user it is seemingly usual program but the real thing is a great scheme plan to take over the programming army's know-how with lots of parenthesis.
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2019-12-09T19:05:12Z jcowan: That's Lots of Irritating and Silly Parentheses.
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2019-12-09T19:16:59Z zig: sorry!
2019-12-09T19:18:07Z jcowan smiles
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2019-12-09T21:35:07Z Riastradh: wat
2019-12-09T21:35:19Z Riastradh: jcowan: You're redefining char-set:graphic to include #\space?
2019-12-09T21:41:40Z jcowan: No, the rules are wrong (the prose is right).  I'm creating a PR now.
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2019-12-10T01:57:13Z lockywolf: https://arxiv.org/abs/1912.01412
2019-12-10T01:57:29Z lockywolf: Kinda cool
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2019-12-10T02:00:03Z pjb: Yes, cool to do better than Mathematica and others.
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2019-12-10T07:02:20Z lockywolf_: pjb, they are sort of overpraising themselves
2019-12-10T07:03:19Z lockywolf_: But I think that viewing mathematics as a machine-learnable transducer activity is interesting.
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2019-12-10T20:25:40Z JalapenoX: https://paste.debian.net/1120564/
2019-12-10T20:25:49Z JalapenoX: Really confused by the answer to this question.
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2019-12-10T20:27:12Z JalapenoX: especially the let part of the program.  Does the + in front of the first condition add the two conditions togeter?
2019-12-10T20:28:52Z JalapenoX: I've never seen that before.
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2019-12-10T20:36:14Z JalapenoX: I had to really think about it but I think I get it now.
2019-12-10T20:37:25Z jcowan: It adds the *values* of the two conditionals
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2019-12-10T21:17:03Z jcowan: The + operation is over-indented, which makes it hard to read.
2019-12-10T21:19:15Z pjb: JalapenoX should use emacs…
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2019-12-11T11:15:45Z cpressey: Hello. I'm toying with the idea of writing a Scheme-to-JavaScript compiler and I'm wondering what the state of the art is. http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/spock is one of the only I've come across; the description of the compiled code ("stresses JavaScript implementations") is a bit disappointing though.
2019-12-11T11:17:58Z zig: https://hyper.dev/blog/state-of-scheme-in-the-browser-in-2019.html
2019-12-11T11:18:27Z cpressey: Thanks zig! Will read throught that.
2019-12-11T11:23:26Z zig: cpressey: ping me when you have done so, I am also interested in the subject, in particular I am interested in targeting wasm.
2019-12-11T11:24:29Z zig: cpressey: spock stresses JavaScript implementations from a decade ago, I did a similar transformation in my 'ruse' scheme compile and it works. So spock approach my work nowadays.
2019-12-11T11:24:39Z zig: +r
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2019-12-11T11:49:13Z cpressey: zig: Do you implement "Cheney on the MTA" in your compiler? I was considering compiling to a trampoline, but mostly as an experiment and a learning experience. (I don't have a good understanding of Cheney on the MTA either though, I should probably study that too.)
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2019-12-11T12:30:43Z zig: cpressey: no, I do not implement Cheney on the MTA, I don't how it works, I rely on a trampoline.
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2019-12-11T14:09:15Z cpressey: zig: Okay. My TODO list now looks like: 1) Read the Cheney on the MTA paper again, try to understand it better this time (2) Try to get 'ruse' working (3) Read some code generated by 'ruse', and see if I can follow what it's doing :)
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2019-12-11T14:19:43Z zig: do no hesitate to ping about ruse.
2019-12-11T14:21:16Z cpressey: Thanks :)
2019-12-11T14:25:14Z pjb: cpressey: my todo lists are too big ; I don't watch them anymore.
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2019-12-11T14:37:20Z cpressey: pjb: Every so often my TODO lists get swapped to secondary storage and become forgotten. It's a good thing TODO items aren't Tamagotchi, or I'd feel kind of bad about it.
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2019-12-11T14:50:22Z pjb: cpressey: :-)
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2019-12-11T15:31:58Z jcowan: cpressey: Don't hesitate to ask about Cheney, either.  There's a lot of people with deep understanding on #chicken, if you are not there already.
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2019-12-11T17:43:45Z hashbjorn: Hi all. I'm trying to get into scheme (racket) for AoC2019, and have hit a case where it would be super useful to me to get the arity of a specific function - but I don't see the way to do this simply.
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2019-12-11T17:44:08Z hashbjorn: E.g. (arity (lambda (x y) (+ x y))) should return 2..
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2019-12-11T17:44:23Z hashbjorn: seems like a thing scheme would be good at doing, but my google-fu isn't very strong here
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2019-12-11T17:51:37Z Zipheir: hashbjorn: Nope, Scheme doesn't have reflection.  Although there may be some Scheme that has such a function.
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2019-12-11T17:55:28Z jcowan: hashbjorn: In particular, racket does have procedure-arity
2019-12-11T17:55:55Z hashbjorn: Zipheir: bear with me, I'm new to scheme. isn't the idea of most lisps that it's super good at manipulating its own source code? how is this different from reflection?
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2019-12-11T17:57:28Z hashbjorn: Zipheir: thanks! procedure-arity seems like what i need
2019-12-11T17:57:42Z Zipheir: hashbjorn: Lisps are super good at manipulating Lisp code because the latter is basically lists of symbols.  But procedure objects are opaque.
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2019-12-11T17:58:02Z Zipheir bounces the thanks to jcowan.
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2019-12-11T18:01:38Z Zipheir: hashbjorn: Procedure objects (opaque, usually) are the result of evaluating the source code describing them (lists of stuff).
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2019-12-11T18:02:12Z hashbjorn: Zipheir: that actually makes a lot of sense to me, thanks!
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2019-12-11T18:02:50Z hashbjorn: Zipheir: so if I understand correctly, if I want to manipulate a function in the "traditional" scheme fashion, i would do it by implementing a macro and wrapping my function definiyion in it?
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2019-12-11T18:04:28Z Zipheir: hashbjorn: Yes, basically.
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2019-12-11T18:07:24Z Zipheir: hashbjorn: Macros are incredibly powerful.  The one limitation to understand is that macro expansion happens before evaluation.
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2019-12-11T18:27:40Z mdhughes: Or just write your function as a quoted list and then eval it; the eval'd object is maybe a bunch of machine code. The "source" list is still a thing you can reflect on.
2019-12-11T18:28:15Z Zipheir: Ewww.
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2019-12-11T18:28:59Z mdhughes: No "Ewww". Sexpr as code and objects means sexpr as code.
2019-12-11T18:29:43Z Zipheir: But Scheme objects aren't sexprs.
2019-12-11T18:30:48Z mdhughes: Yes, they are. Read R7RS 1.2 "Scheme, like most dialects of Lisp, employs a fully paren- thesized prefix notation for programs and other data; the grammar of Scheme generates a sublanguage of the lan- guage used for data. An important consequence of this simple, uniform representation is that Scheme programs and data can easily be treated uniformly by other Scheme programs. For example, the eval procedure evaluates
2019-12-11T18:30:48Z mdhughes: a Scheme program expressed as data."
2019-12-11T18:32:19Z mdhughes: This is my canonical "is this a LISP" program: ((eval '(lambda (x y) (+ x y))) 1 2)
2019-12-11T18:32:52Z mdhughes: You may need to insert (interaction-environment) at the end of that eval if your Scheme doesn't have a nice default.
2019-12-11T18:32:59Z Zipheir: Sure, Scheme programs and data.  But Scheme objects don't necessarily have an S-expr external representation.
2019-12-11T18:33:41Z mdhughes: The binary object may not, but the source-level always does.
2019-12-11T18:34:07Z mdhughes: And most binary objects can be read/write, just not procedures, hash-tables (usually) and a few others.
2019-12-11T18:35:54Z Zipheir: But it's still not the case that you can take anything is Scheme and get an s-expr out of it.  With procedures, again, you can "keep the source around" manually, but the compiler won't.
2019-12-11T18:36:19Z Zipheir: So the "code is data, data is code" propaganda has to be tempered somewhat.
2019-12-11T18:37:07Z mdhughes: Counter-revolutionary scum! You will be first into the bitmines!
2019-12-11T18:38:35Z Zipheir: I didn't know we'd all switched to Stalin overnight.
2019-12-11T18:44:18Z mdhughes: Sadly, Stalin doesn't EVAL.
2019-12-11T18:44:32Z mdhughes: So is it even really a Scheme?
2019-12-11T18:45:36Z Zipheir: R4RS doesn't have `eval', does it?
2019-12-11T18:49:51Z mdhughes: By the spec, no. In practice, I think all old Schemes expected eval to come from the hosting LISP environment, otherwise you couldn't REPL.
2019-12-11T18:50:35Z Zipheir: That's not the same thing as exposing it to the programmer.
2019-12-11T18:50:40Z Zipheir: eval is a massive foot-gun.
2019-12-11T18:51:06Z mdhughes: R0RS has EVALUATE down in **TOP**, pg 30.
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2019-12-11T18:53:26Z mdhughes: And provides code for EVALUATE and AEVAL (the main worker) on pg 36.
2019-12-11T18:54:16Z mdhughes: It just didn't have the nice modern form. A gun you can't shoot yourself with is no good at all!
2019-12-11T18:55:48Z mdhughes: You could reimplement EVALUATE in Stalin, but it wouldn't be run thru the compiler, unlike eval in Chez for instance. I'm not sure what Chicken does at runtime, run the interpreter?
2019-12-11T19:02:53Z Zipheir: It's probably the same code.
2019-12-11T19:06:05Z jcowan: I wrote a REPL for Stalin in Chicken; it saves up all definitions in a hash table.  When it sees an expression, it outputs all definitions plus the expression, compiles it with Stalin, and runs the executable.  Slow, but usable.
2019-12-11T19:06:18Z jcowan: s/outputs/outputs to a file
2019-12-11T19:06:50Z Riastradh: hashbjorn: Scheme generally makes a clearer distinction between object-language and meta-language than other Lisps.
2019-12-11T19:08:07Z hashbjorn: Riastradh Zipheir: thanks for your help, looking forward to learning macros :D
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2019-12-11T19:12:20Z mdhughes: I guess if Stalin's a fast enough compiler, that's not too bad for doing math-at-REPL projects. Julia's slow as hell to start & compile stuff, but it's everyone's favorite math tool now.
2019-12-11T19:16:56Z Zipheir: hashbjorn: yw, good luck!
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2019-12-11T19:27:42Z jcowan: mdhughes: Stalin is a very slow compiler that produces very fast executables (though not as fast as Chez at least on microbenchmarks).  Using it as an evaluator for a REPL is a perverse thing to do.
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2019-12-12T12:07:43Z sarna: hey y'all, do you know any big industrial applications written in scheme? any implementation would be fine
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2019-12-12T12:09:34Z zig: nanopass framework is such application.
2019-12-12T12:10:05Z zig: sarna: what kind of "industrial" application are you looking for? is that web app or something more specific? what do you expect?
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2019-12-12T12:10:46Z sarna: zig: well anything that a manager could like :)
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2019-12-12T12:11:08Z sarna: like, demonstrating scheme as not a toy language
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2019-12-12T12:13:09Z zig: sarna: I lookup something for you based on nanopass framework, that is scheme to opengl compiler of some sort.
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2019-12-12T12:14:38Z zig: well nanopass framework is here: https://nanopass.org/ it is compiler framework of some sort, but I can not find the scheme->opengl compiler thing.
2019-12-12T12:14:43Z sarna: zig: hmm, it's a tool for writing compilers.. that wouldn't really appear to management, I'm afraid
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2019-12-12T12:16:15Z zig: sarna: the thing is that what you (or your manager) call "industrial application" are just open source tools that are painlessly glued together in the hope it works. I have to see "industrial application" that actually is impressive. I have been 10 year old in the industry, I have not been impressed by anything, but foss work.
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2019-12-12T12:16:56Z sarna: zig: my stance is the same as yours really, I just have a hard time talking to business people
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2019-12-12T12:18:07Z zig: sarna: put them in front of the fact that it is done, if you give them the choice it will not accept, don't give them the choice. This is not business decision, this is technico-technical decision. Business or manager have no clue what is good for the project.
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2019-12-12T12:18:34Z zig: good in technical sense.
2019-12-12T12:19:20Z zig: sarna: there is also gnu guix which as of right rather big distribution with various technical achievement (and lots of lines of code)
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2019-12-12T12:20:27Z zig: That is, If or when other developers from the team are willing to work with scheme.
2019-12-12T12:20:47Z sarna: zig: well I agree, but it doesn't change the fact they have the final say :)  even if they're wrong
2019-12-12T12:20:57Z sarna: yeah, convincing other developers isn't super easy either
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2019-12-12T12:22:42Z zig: then give up, and work in your free time to build relevant, impressive or useful programs in scheme. That is what I do this year, I am on sabatical to do some work for Scheme, to make it clearer to other people that Scheme is a good programming language.
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2019-12-12T12:23:53Z zig: Most of what business (as usual) use today was built by people like us that were working on their free time, because they knew it was the good thing, because of that also they made better tools than what privative commercial-operated companies could produce.
2019-12-12T12:24:04Z sarna: yeah, sad reality
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2019-12-12T12:25:05Z zig: here is project I have been working on: https://github.com/amirouche/nomunofu the version number is not shiny and I am no backed by $50M venture capital, but it works and is useufl.
2019-12-12T12:25:08Z zig: bbl
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2019-12-12T12:39:55Z gwatt: sarna: what are you wanting to do with scheme?
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2019-12-12T12:50:29Z sarna: zig: looks nice!
2019-12-12T12:51:10Z sarna: gwatt: well my current job involves writing devops/monitoring scripts, but in general we mainly do webapps
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2019-12-12T12:55:08Z weinholt: sarna, https://github.com/becls/swish
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2019-12-12T13:02:38Z sarna:  weinholt: that's interesting, reminds me of gerbil
2019-12-12T13:03:08Z sarna: it's not thread safe though? bummer :(
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2019-12-12T13:27:30Z mdhughes: sarna: Guile https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/ is used in a bunch of GNU applications.
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2019-12-12T13:27:56Z sarna: mdhughes: yes, as a scripting language - not the "main" language the application is written with
2019-12-12T13:28:20Z mdhughes: Yeah, I know I had a list of commercial programs using Scheme, but I can't find it right now.
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2019-12-12T13:29:04Z mdhughes: What I do is both personal utilities, and working on a large indie videogame in Chicken Scheme.
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2019-12-12T13:30:29Z sarna: mdhughes: was the game released yet?
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2019-12-12T13:30:57Z mdhughes: No, I'm still working on it. Was hoping for this year, but probably spring 2020.
2019-12-12T13:31:10Z sarna: I see
2019-12-12T13:31:12Z sarna: good luck :)
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2019-12-12T13:33:54Z mdhughes: In practice it's a good implementation language, and Chicken and Gerbil fit my needs of compiling to fast, native binaries. But there's been a lot of learning & fighting with inadequate libraries along the way.
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2019-12-12T13:37:54Z mdhughes: There's also http://www.lambdanative.org "LambdaNative is currently used for clinical trials of medical technology in more than 10 countries involving around 100,000 subjects in all."
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2019-12-12T13:42:14Z sarna: yeah, lambdanative uses gambit, right?
2019-12-12T13:42:23Z sarna: I like gerbil too, but it has almost no libraries
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2019-12-12T13:42:34Z sarna: it's a shame scheme code is not portable
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2019-12-12T13:44:49Z mdhughes: It's mostly portable in practice; I wrote a lot of my earlier code for Chez, and it didn't take long to convert it to Chicken. I've moved a smaller amount to Gerbil and it went fast, too.
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2019-12-12T13:46:00Z mdhughes: But I code defensively and to my own library, so a lot of platform changes can be hidden in there, not in application code.
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2019-12-12T13:47:17Z mdhughes: I think we need to start adding stuff to http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-software
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2019-12-12T13:48:17Z mdhughes: One good argument for management is Paul Graham's http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
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2019-12-12T13:50:38Z sarna: it's from 15 years ago
2019-12-12T13:50:48Z sarna: also, isn't he talking about common lisp there?
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2019-12-12T13:51:07Z zig: It is mostly portable, but you need to fork the original library code, and fix it for your current target scheme implementation. That is different pratice from other language where you install with a package manager the wanted library, read the documentation, and use it. In scheme, you need to adapt existing code to fit your use-case. Also, there is less choice, less fatigue, and more coding.
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2019-12-12T13:52:10Z sarna: zig: but how does that equal less fatigue? :)
2019-12-12T13:52:28Z zig: (time spent wrapping your head around the logic of someone else, is used to code a solution that fits your particular usecase, I do not think that in the end coding in scheme with its existing ecosystem takes more time than say Python or JavaScript)
2019-12-12T13:52:52Z sarna: oh, I see what you mean
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2019-12-12T13:53:33Z mdhughes: He was using CL at ViaWeb, and then went off to make Arc after Yahoo! bought them & destroyed it. I think the lessons there are: 1. Don't let C++-only guys into your company, and 2. Don't write your own implementation, find a good one and use it.
2019-12-12T13:53:37Z zig: sarna: less fatigue, because you do not have to keep up with novelity. If something is good in another library, you can add it to your own library.
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2019-12-12T13:54:36Z sarna: zig: common lispers tend to have these big personal util libraries, is that the case with scheme programmers too?
2019-12-12T13:54:41Z sarna: or is it on a per-project basis
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2019-12-12T13:55:15Z zig: take for instance, JSON, JSON is trivial to write if / when you do no need to take into account backward compatibility with PHP3. It is the same for so many other things.
2019-12-12T13:55:47Z zig: And a lot of things are readily available using Foreign Function Internface (FFI). Like xml, json, http, etc...
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2019-12-12T13:56:36Z zig: sarna: it depends... myself I struggle with packaging, so I seldom package stuff, but copy/paste heavily between projects.
2019-12-12T13:57:23Z sarna: FFI to C, you mean?
2019-12-12T13:57:24Z sarna: I see
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2019-12-12T13:57:45Z zig: "not packaging" is not a good practice, that is what happens in commercial settings anyway from what I have seen.
2019-12-12T13:57:48Z mdhughes: In my case, there were a couple JSON libs in Chicken, but I didn't like the translation to Scheme objects in them, so I wrote my own.
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2019-12-12T13:58:29Z mdhughes: My libraries are a giant shambling mass of stuff. But as long as I code to that, my apps could move to another impl with short work.
2019-12-12T13:58:46Z zig: (in privative commercial setting, you just push binaries or docker images to production)
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2019-12-12T13:59:12Z zig: sarna: yeah, FFI to C.
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2019-12-12T13:59:51Z sarna: I see I see
2019-12-12T13:59:56Z zig: sarna: mind the fact, even if most Scheme implementation have good FFI support, people prefer to write scheme code.
2019-12-12T14:00:37Z zig: chez for instance can generate standalone binaries, so does chicken and gambit. With guile + guix, you can also generate portable binaries.
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2019-12-12T14:01:03Z zig: prefer to write scheme code that is faster or at least fast.
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2019-12-12T14:05:03Z mdhughes: The things I've mainly needed FFI for are graphics & sound, nobody ships a working, complete UI library, except Racket and theirs is excruciatingly slow.
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2019-12-12T14:05:26Z mdhughes: But it's also nice to be able to use math & other libraries from FFI if you have to.
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2019-12-12T15:06:55Z zig did another release, for great justice ;)
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2019-12-12T15:07:05Z zig: https://github.com/amirouche/nomunofu/releases/tag/v0.1.4
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2019-12-12T16:24:37Z DKordic: How to ban shakdwipeea (~user@183.82.22.118)?
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2019-12-12T16:26:10Z Riastradh has set mode +b *!*@183.82.22.118
2019-12-12T16:39:07Z CyDefect: thanks
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2019-12-12T19:40:56Z zig: there is minimalist devroom at fosdem2020, not much scheme specific talk, but you might still be interested: https://fosdem.org/2020/schedule/track/minimalistic_experimental_and_emerging_languages/
2019-12-12T19:41:37Z zig: it happens in brussel, belgium, europe at the very end of january, beginning of feburary. actually the minimalist devroom is the 2nd feb.
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2019-12-12T19:46:31Z jcowan: mdhughes: Which Chicken JSON lib is yours?
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2019-12-13T00:02:00Z JalapenoX: https://paste.debian.net/1120844/
2019-12-13T00:02:16Z JalapenoX: I'm having a hard time understanding this part of the "Simply Scheme" chapter.
2019-12-13T00:02:30Z JalapenoX: FYI the part that is in bold is "(sqrt (- (* b b) (* 4 a c)))))"
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2019-12-13T00:28:31Z fizzie: I don't think that's a particularly clear sentence, especially with a procedure invocation being the only argument to the lambda, but I guess it's referring to an earlier `(let ((discriminant (sqrt ...))) ...)` version of the same code.
2019-12-13T00:30:20Z fizzie: Is it any clearer if you replace the example with something like `(let ((a 123) (b 456) (c 789)) (+ a (* b c)))` => `((lambda (a b c) (+ a (* b c))) 123 456 789)` where the part in bold would be the `123 456 789`?
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2019-12-13T01:41:54Z mdhughes: jcowan: Neither, haven't published mine as an egg yet.
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2019-12-13T01:51:42Z jcowan: mdhughes: Do you mind saying what your internal representation of objects, arrays, and null is?  (Or the default, if it's tunable.)
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2019-12-13T02:05:42Z mdhughes: Current mapping is: https://paste.debian.net/1120855
2019-12-13T02:06:26Z mdhughes: I want to make chars at least round-trip, and test dictionaries for symbol or string keys, and produce appropriate hash-tables.
2019-12-13T02:07:40Z Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh
2019-12-13T02:08:29Z Riastradh: How about a little schema language that determines the mapping so you don't get surprised by a string that happens to begin with an apostrophe?
2019-12-13T02:08:30Z mdhughes: Also, I'm extremely generous in what I accept, including extra commas and // comments. I need it for config files.
2019-12-13T02:09:52Z mdhughes: The mapping's in a function, but I want to make it settable.
2019-12-13T02:10:28Z mdhughes: So there'd be json-parser-mapping-set!, or a parameter, but I'm undecided how yet.
2019-12-13T02:11:03Z mdhughes: Also you can directly call the json-string->tokens function and parse the tokens however you like.
2019-12-13T02:17:34Z jcowan nods.
2019-12-13T02:17:52Z jcowan: One problem is that null and {} are indistinguishable, which strikes me as bad.
2019-12-13T02:18:44Z mdhughes: No, {} => hash-table. Lists right now do encode as arrays, I'd love to have a better solution.
2019-12-13T02:19:25Z jcowan: Sorry, I misread it.
2019-12-13T02:19:28Z mdhughes: So '() => json [] => #(), which sucks. But json null => '() => [] which also sucks.
2019-12-13T02:20:19Z jcowan: I think within the constraints of JSON you can't expect round-trippability of anything except JSON's six types.
2019-12-13T02:21:21Z jcowan: Riastradh: The trouble is that people want null to be licit even if the schema doesn't mention it.
2019-12-13T02:21:27Z mdhughes: Right, though there's a few tricks for metadata.
2019-12-13T02:21:52Z mdhughes: One option is list => ["list", ...]
2019-12-13T02:23:13Z jcowan: I've put together a list of round-trippable represnentations for a whole bunch of types based on a variant of S-expressions for text and X.690 (aka ASN.1 DER) for binary.  X.690 has a very bad rep, but that's because it fits (quite unintentionally) dynamically typed languages much better than statically typed ones.
2019-12-13T02:23:28Z mdhughes: My main concern is if I can round-trip most existing JSON, and also round-trip the data types I use most for config.
2019-12-13T02:24:30Z mdhughes: I'm not looking to be 100% JSON-error-compliant, or cover every type, but I really needed a sorta-human-readable config format.
2019-12-13T02:24:50Z jcowan nods
2019-12-13T02:25:22Z jcowan: I think my S-expressions are just as readable as JSON, though.  (They really need their own name)
2019-12-13T02:26:57Z Riastradh: jcowan: ?
2019-12-13T02:27:11Z jcowan: The basic types are strings, integers, real numbers, symbols, and lists.
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2019-12-13T02:27:37Z jcowan: Any of these can be preceded by #foo to indicate a particular type.
2019-12-13T02:27:55Z jcowan: (where the list of foos is defined by the spec, or can be a hex number)
2019-12-13T02:28:17Z jcowan: thus #(...) is a vector because the tag of a vector is empty
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2019-12-14T09:36:03Z zig: how would you do to represent a date that looks like: "-34000-01-01T00:00:00Z" using an integer
2019-12-14T09:36:33Z zig: note the minus 34000
2019-12-14T09:37:08Z zig: imo the data not properly format, in that case, I would use just -34000 and not a pseudo datetime object.
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2019-12-14T10:27:56Z ecraven: zig: just like any other date.. seconds before some epoch, if you want
2019-12-14T10:29:05Z ecraven: for example, according to Calendrical Calculations, the fixed day count of that date would be -12418610
2019-12-14T10:31:55Z ecraven: you might need bignums at some point, but that shouldn't be a problem in Scheme
2019-12-14T10:32:36Z ecraven: also "a date" is very unspecific.. is this meant to be gregorian, but extrapolated into the past?
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2019-12-14T10:52:53Z zig: I do not have context for the date at the moment, It is extracted from wikidata, it is probably an estimate of some event in the very far past.  It seems to me it is an error to encode that as iso datetime object, given it is just an estimate and also it breaks mktime which does not support such big-ish time. Neither CPython can make sense of it.
2019-12-14T10:53:06Z zig: I am right, others are wrong kind of attitude ;)
2019-12-14T10:53:46Z zig: I could ask #wikidata, but the fear to not see my question answered is bigger than my willingness to do the good thing :/
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2019-12-14T11:44:25Z mdhughes: Unfortunately iso8601 has poor support for BCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Years
2019-12-14T11:45:11Z mdhughes: What are you going to do with it? If you have an astronomy program or something it should have its own date format.
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2019-12-14T13:25:52Z zig: well, I do not use the data per se. I try to import wikimedia's wikidata project into my database.
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2019-12-14T16:35:55Z mdhughes: Most databases don't even handle dates before 1582 CE, or have terrible results when they do. If you're just stashing the year for media identification, though, just save it as an integer.
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2019-12-14T18:38:59Z pjb: mdhughes: years are not really properly defined for dates before the XXth century.
2019-12-14T18:39:33Z pjb: mdhughes: we get good enough documentation to synchronize calendar, depending on the place, down to the XVIIIth century, but not much beyond.
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2019-12-14T18:40:09Z pjb: mdhughes: earlier, it all depends on the place, the historic record (very bad), and the astronomic data (modulo the various recurrences).
2019-12-14T18:40:38Z pjb: mdhughes: basically, before the invention of fast transport and the mechanical watch, which are both very recent inventions.
2019-12-14T18:41:20Z pjb: mdhughes: and for any date before 1582 CE, not even considering BC, it's completely random.
2019-12-14T18:41:33Z pjb: mdhughes: if you have a time machine, the first thing you will have to do is to map time!
2019-12-14T18:42:19Z pjb: mdhughes: imagine jumping 2000 years ago, and asking has Jesus been crucified yet?  - Jesus who?
2019-12-14T18:42:44Z pjb: Assume you go to the right place.  There were crucifixions all the time.
2019-12-14T18:44:44Z pjb: One thing you could do, is to go far in the past, and put a long-term GPS system in place, so that at least, when you jump, you know WHEN you are, with respect to your calendar.  But this won't help you much to place historic event.  Most historic event weren't historical at all, and given the communication systems in place, weren't even known for months of for years after they occured.
2019-12-14T18:46:08Z pjb: It's rather all crazy, we're completely lost in time, and I wonder why there's no serious research project on this matter…  (nonwithstanding the position of the Vulcan Science Concil).
2019-12-14T18:46:40Z pjb: err, Vulcan Science Directorate, sorry.
2019-12-14T18:46:58Z pjb: Well, at least Pope Gregoire was worried about it.
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2019-12-14T18:57:25Z pjb: Hey, I found someting here. https://leg8.fr/monde-romain/calendrier-romain  It looks like the monk Denis le Petit arbitrarily fixed the birth day of Jesus at December 25th of 753 AUC (ab urbe condita, mythical foundation of Rome).  So at least, if you can get a reference to the year AUC (which is not easily in most places, and even in Latin document, since years are usually counted from the reign of the current soverein, or from
2019-12-14T18:57:25Z pjb: foundation of the local city!), we'll soon be in 2773 AUC.
2019-12-14T18:58:00Z pjb: But again, this doesn't help much (you can always retro-fit a calendar). Since we know that Jesus wasn't born that year, or that season.
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2019-12-14T19:24:30Z Riastradh: zig: What does the wikidata project do with dates like that?
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2019-12-14T19:33:46Z zig: not sure, I can not investigate at this moment.
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2019-12-14T19:39:16Z zig: Riastradh: it happens in https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q144 it is written in the html page as "34. millennium BCE" not  sure what BCE? Before Christ E...?
2019-12-14T19:39:35Z Riastradh: `before common era'
2019-12-14T19:39:47Z zig: ok
2019-12-14T19:39:48Z zig: tx
2019-12-14T19:40:29Z Riastradh: (There is a movement to replace `before christ' and `anno domini' by the less-Christian-sounding terms `before common era' and `common era', respectively.)
2019-12-14T19:41:20Z Riastradh: (i.e., BC/AD -> BCE/CE)
2019-12-14T19:42:57Z zig: what the page says, is that dogs, are a thing since -34 000 years.
2019-12-14T19:43:06Z Riastradh: (Strikes me as a little silly because the so-called `common era' is defined by a Christian-centric epoch, so the name gives me the impression of dishonestly calling the Christian time period `common'.)
2019-12-14T19:43:42Z zig: (I agree, the amazigh calendar is beyond 3000 years at the moment)
2019-12-14T19:43:51Z zig: (so does the jewish calendar IIRC)
2019-12-14T19:44:23Z zig: (the amazigh calendar is not based on religious event, tho, it is part of egyptian history)
2019-12-14T19:45:41Z zig: (anyway, there is only one relevant era, that is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene)
2019-12-14T19:51:23Z zig: you might interested to know that I compared to loading times of the very latest guile 2.9.7 (released today) vs. 4store (written in C), and virtuoso (also written in C) and the scheme is only 3 to 5 times slower to import around 500MB..  I still need to load more data to make more interesting benchmarks.  All those do not offer the same guarantees.
2019-12-14T19:54:12Z zig: I think the bottleneck is in FFI code... for some reasons. On microbenchmarks, guile is almost as fast as gambit and chez. I benchmarked my chez database, it was 2 to 3 times faster than blazegraph written in Java.  I can not believe Java is much slower than C...
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2019-12-15T01:53:24Z jcowan: It's called the Common Era because it's common to almost all countries.
2019-12-15T01:53:35Z jcowan: Originally CE meant Christian Era, but that's changed
2019-12-15T01:54:13Z jcowan: THere are maybe five holdouts, not counting those which just number their years from a different epoch or epochs.
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2019-12-15T08:38:56Z zig: hello #scheme
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2019-12-15T09:32:36Z zig: re nomunofu, seems like virtuoso, has smart cache.  After the import of the data, the first query ever takes 27 times slower than nomunofu, doing the query a second time make it 3 times fater. Restarting the virtuoso server, the first query is faster, but still 2 times slower than nomunofu, redoing the query against the hot cache lead to the same result as before the restart, that is virtuoso is 3 times
2019-12-15T09:32:38Z zig: faster than nomunofu with a hot cache.
2019-12-15T09:36:47Z zig: I feel the urge to benchmark chez scheme.
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2019-12-15T14:37:12Z ecraven: ;)
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2019-12-15T14:41:33Z razzy: ;]
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2019-12-15T20:14:30Z ecraven: ;)
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2019-12-16T14:08:21Z kritixilithos: an "is this possible with macros" question,
2019-12-16T14:09:37Z kritixilithos: I want to "pair" functions, like (define f(funpair g h)), so when I call f normally (f args) it calls g on args
2019-12-16T14:10:46Z kritixilithos: but I will also have another function/macro that switches the pair, so ((switch f) args) will call h on args instead of g, so (switch f) <=> (funpair h g)
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2019-12-16T14:13:29Z kritixilithos: I think I can implement this if f does not have a niladic usage, in which case I'd handle most of this in funpair, BUT f g and h can have any number of arguments, even 0
2019-12-16T14:15:19Z kritixilithos: I would appreciate guidance in acheiving this if this is possible, my main goal is that I should not need a helper function to apply a funpair, so I don't want (funpair_apply f args), rather I want to be ablet to call it normally like (f args)
2019-12-16T14:16:39Z gwatt: kritixilithos: this is straighforward to implement as functions, no macros required.
2019-12-16T14:17:31Z gwatt: however, I'm not sure what problem this solves or makes easier to solve.
2019-12-16T14:23:33Z kritixilithos: gwatt: how would you approach it? it does not seem obvious to me
2019-12-16T14:26:01Z kritixilithos: as for what problem it solves, I want to create an "inverse" macro/function that, when given a "train" (in apl/j speak), can find its inverse, to do so, each function can be defined with an inverse
2019-12-16T14:26:49Z kritixilithos: really just thinking of how I would lispify an apl
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2019-12-16T14:39:21Z cpressey: kritixilithos: my impulse would be to define some special value called smth like `inverse`, and have an "invertible function" first check if it was passed exactly one argument, `inverse`, and if so, return its inverse.  Otherwise do the normal thing for that function.
2019-12-16T14:40:11Z cpressey: so instead of ((switch f) args) you'd say ((f inverse) args)
2019-12-16T14:42:56Z kritixilithos: hmm, so `inverse` could be quoted like `'inverse`
2019-12-16T14:44:44Z kritixilithos: that should work even if f is monadic, ... but is there a less hacky way to do it?
2019-12-16T14:45:44Z kritixilithos: thank you cpressey, I'll try it and see how I feel
2019-12-16T14:57:35Z kritixilithos: a bit hacky, but it does the job, thanks
2019-12-16T14:58:11Z cpressey: kritixilithos: no problem, happy to help
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2019-12-16T15:00:29Z kritixilithos: I'm still open to other suggestions, if anyone's got any
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2019-12-16T15:02:37Z gwatt: kritixilithos: cpressey suggested how I thought of it as well.
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2019-12-16T15:11:10Z kritixilithos: thinking about this a bit more, what if f can take anything as input, even quoted arguments, eg: rotating all the arguments by 1 to the right
2019-12-16T15:11:39Z kritixilithos: in which case 'input would be a completely valid argument
2019-12-16T15:15:09Z kritixilithos: so I'd need some other approach, or some very special value
2019-12-16T15:15:09Z gwatt: Yes, you'll need to create and store a unique object that switch passes to the function pair and use eq? to confirm identity.
2019-12-16T15:16:58Z jcowan: Easy way to create a unique object:  (string-copy "inverse")
2019-12-16T15:17:07Z jcowan: then use eq? to test whether you have it
2019-12-16T15:17:28Z gwatt: eq? does pointer comparison so if you store e.g., the string "switcheroo" where both funpair and switch have access but nothing else does.
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2019-12-16T15:28:07Z kritixilithos: jcowan: thanks, that is nice, '(()) works too and is shorter
2019-12-16T15:28:33Z kritixilithos: or even '(0)
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2019-12-16T15:31:04Z jcowan: True, but much less self-documenting when trying to debug.
2019-12-16T15:31:55Z jcowan: it isn't really important how long the object is, since there is only one copy and you only refer to it through some variable.
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2019-12-16T17:15:44Z zig: hello #scheme
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2019-12-16T17:25:10Z Zipheir: zig: o/
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2019-12-16T17:29:35Z zig: I got into a not so funny argument online with a potential recruiter (!) that try to convince me that "strongly typed" language are things like typescript and haskell (or scala), also apparantly it provides speed boost (typescript is an annotation system for javascript)
2019-12-16T17:29:43Z zig: I am not sure how to respond.
2019-12-16T17:31:26Z zig: also for them, strongly typed means "lots of types"
2019-12-16T17:31:40Z zmv: "looks like ur definitions are shaky buddy"
2019-12-16T17:31:55Z zig: I am not sure how I managed to be in front of so bad situations, that I want to give up everything.
2019-12-16T17:33:01Z zig: well, so bad in the sense, I have been lurking on that company for 10 years, and now one of them follow me on mastodon (not a dev)... I am really disappointed to say the least.
2019-12-16T17:33:23Z zmv: just say politely that it seems that they might have confused strong typing with static typing etc
2019-12-16T17:33:26Z Zipheir: Looks like someone doesn't understand types.
2019-12-16T17:33:40Z Zipheir: (I mean the recruiter, of course.)
2019-12-16T17:34:00Z zig: they are a developper.
2019-12-16T17:34:11Z zig: that is the worst.
2019-12-16T17:34:12Z zmv: maybe point out that that's a common misconception :P
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2019-12-16T17:36:24Z zig: more types == means less tests.
2019-12-16T17:37:02Z zig: not sure how to respond to that last one, I would have a tendency to trust the compiler, but I am not knowledgeable in static type system (algebric type or dependent types)
2019-12-16T17:37:19Z Zipheir: That's a quote?  "more types == means less tests"??
2019-12-16T17:37:35Z zig: I read in an haskell post that more type doesn't necessarly means less tests (https://serokell.io/blog/why-dependent-haskell)
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2019-12-16T17:38:26Z Zipheir: Simply having 20 types in a program rather than 10 is not going to make anything more reliable.
2019-12-16T17:38:44Z zig: Here is the french quote "C'est intéressant, car plus de types c'est souvent moins de tests à écrire et moins d'erreurs à l'exécution." translate by myself as "It is interesting, because more types often is less tests to code and less errors at runtime"
2019-12-16T17:39:19Z Zipheir: Yeah, no.
2019-12-16T17:39:37Z Zipheir: Better use of typing and knowing what the hell you're doing, yes.
2019-12-16T17:40:05Z zig: Zipheir: You are not ONLY a schemer, you do haskell too?
2019-12-16T17:40:32Z Zipheir: zig: My second favorite language :)
2019-12-16T17:41:22Z Zipheir: "It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than 10 functions on 10 data structures." --Perlis
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2019-12-16T17:42:03Z zig: I could cite Entreprise Software Architecture against the idea that "more types == less bugs"
2019-12-16T17:42:04Z Zipheir: Ditto types.  A proliferation of types doesn't mean fewer errors.
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2019-12-16T17:43:18Z Zipheir: zig: Maybe what they meant was more expressive types (i.e. the ability to type more things), fewer tests.  Maybe it was an argument for dependent types!
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2019-12-16T17:45:31Z zig: from where I stand, that is what I understand they want "dependant types" but then it is not the case for the programming languages they cited as strongly typed.
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2019-12-16T17:46:35Z zig: because none of them has dependant types? maybe scala I am not sure.
2019-12-16T17:46:41Z Zipheir: Not AFAIK.
2019-12-16T17:47:29Z zig nods
2019-12-16T17:48:02Z zig: seems like another take from the "dynamic language has not type and is slow" fame.
2019-12-16T17:48:57Z Zipheir: Strong/weak has very little to do with dynamic/static.
2019-12-16T17:50:00Z Zipheir: But admittedly the distinction is rather vague.  WP: "In 1974, Liskov and Zilles defined a strongly-typed language as one in which 'whenever an object is passed from a calling function to a called function, its type must be compatible with the type declared in the called function.'"
2019-12-16T17:51:18Z Zipheir: Not a very helpful definition when you're talking about dynamically-typed languages.
2019-12-16T17:59:00Z Zipheir: But, of course, Lisps catch type errors at runtime.  Which is strong typing by that definition, depending on your reading of it.
2019-12-16T18:01:56Z jcowan: I understand "strongly typed" to mean that you can't reinterpret the bits of a value belonging to some (dynamic) type as some other type.  C is weakly typed, and so is C++ unless you ban reinterpret_cast.
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2019-12-16T18:02:19Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-12-16T18:02:34Z pjb: jcowan: does C++ allows "abc"[12] or make it just undefined behavior?
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2019-12-16T18:02:54Z zig: (https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/dynamic-languages-are-static-languages/)
2019-12-16T18:03:09Z jcowan: It does, but just means that [] doesn't mean what you think it means
2019-12-16T18:03:41Z Zipheir: zig: I was just thinking of that.  It's an interesting post, under the static-typing smugness.
2019-12-16T18:03:53Z pjb: C and C++ don't give semantics for beyond limits indexing, thus implementations leave it up to the OS to decide whether a SIGSEG would be a good thing to do or not.  In the meantime, random bits are reinterpreted as array elements.
2019-12-16T18:05:48Z Zipheir: That's sort of the essence of weak typing: objects can be type-punned, automatically and without errors.
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2019-12-16T18:09:49Z kritixilithos: jcowan: btw, would you happen to be the same person as the author of the complete lojban language?
2019-12-16T18:10:10Z jcowan: I am.  But I am not the bluegrass singer and bass player.
2019-12-16T18:13:00Z kritixilithos: oh cool
2019-12-16T18:14:02Z kritixilithos: (not familiar with the singler/player though) I had been meaning to resume learning lojban, but now I find myself occupied with lisp
2019-12-16T18:17:00Z Zipheir: There seems to have been a big overlap between the two communities.  Maybe less so, now.
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2019-12-16T18:37:30Z zmv: yes, nowadays all the cool kids are learning Toaq I've heard :P
2019-12-16T18:37:48Z zmv: u'i
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2019-12-16T18:38:43Z mdhughes: zig: By definition, Typescript can't be faster than Javascript, because it compiles to Javascript.
2019-12-16T18:39:17Z gnomon: mdhughes, actually, I thought that for a long time too, but it's not true!  Can I point you at an interesting research paper on that very topic?
2019-12-16T18:39:38Z gnomon: mdhughes, https://archive.arstechnica.com/reviews/1q00/dynamo/dynamo-1.html
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2019-12-16T18:41:19Z mdhughes: I don't find strong/declarative typing useful at all, but I mostly code by thinking, then writing tests, then coding the solution. The people who like strong typing want to program by pounding on the keyboard like a monkey, and having a compiler point out the type-matching errors it can see, repeat until something runs, who knows if it does anything useful.
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2019-12-16T18:42:18Z mdhughes: gnomon: What does that have to do with Javascript? It's about native compilers.
2019-12-16T18:43:12Z zmv: gnomon: holy crap that website lol
2019-12-16T18:43:12Z mdhughes: And Javascript VMs already use JIT and hotspot-optimization.
2019-12-16T18:44:13Z gwatt: There's nothing that prevents a typescript implementation from compiling to native code
2019-12-16T18:44:18Z mdhughes: That's why JS went from a slow toy to a fast runtime around 2008, when V8 came out. Completely dynamic.
2019-12-16T18:44:37Z gnomon: mdhughes, you stated that a language compiled to another language can never be faster than the original language, and HP's Dynamo (and in many ways Transmeta's code morphing before it) provide an existence proof of the opposite.  I shared it because it's a surprising result!
2019-12-16T18:45:22Z mdhughes: No, TS would compile to JS, and the result is optimized by JIT, exactly as would happen if you wrote in untyped JS to start with.
2019-12-16T18:45:24Z gnomon: -1s/provide/&s/
2019-12-16T18:45:46Z gnomon: Ah, OK, I recognize this kind of discussion.  Sorry for barging in, I'll step out now.
2019-12-16T18:45:51Z gnomon: Have fun!
2019-12-16T18:45:58Z kritixilithos: zmv: thank you for introducing me to toaq, apparently it was created by a lojban'er
2019-12-16T18:46:09Z mdhughes: Also if the slug is to be believed, it's from 1q 2000, ancient history.
2019-12-16T18:47:10Z mdhughes: The page images don't load because Ars has reorganized a few times since last Millennium.
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2019-12-16T18:51:57Z Zipheir: zmv: Toaq, Ithkuil, ...  I can't keep up with the latest Cool Thing.
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2019-12-16T18:52:53Z Zipheir: Related: https://abstrusegoose.com/503
2019-12-16T18:52:55Z zmv: kritixilithos: Toaq is pretty neat and still in rather early development, though I still like lojban better. Never got interested in Ithkuil other than a curiosity.
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2019-12-16T18:54:52Z mdhughes: I thought everyone was learning Toki Pona.
2019-12-16T18:54:53Z Zipheir: Re: Ithkuil, "to say brilliant things we need a hyper-complex language" seems like a terrible insight.
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2019-12-16T18:55:39Z mdhughes: Also also https://xkcd.com/191/
2019-12-16T18:56:28Z Zipheir: Sadly, according to Google Trends, that dumb comic gave lojban its biggest attention-spike ever.
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2019-12-16T18:58:16Z mdhughes: I did learn a bit of lojban like 20 years ago, but I only had one person I could talk to in it, and we both spoke more Klingon. I've forgotten most of both since the friend moved and then I moved so nobody's there.
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2019-12-16T18:59:02Z Zipheir: Yeah, finding people to practice conlangs with is tough.
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2019-12-16T19:01:26Z zmv: I don't know much about other conlangs, but both lojban and Toaq have a bunch of active channels. A lot of people access them through Discord or Telegram, but at least the lojban ones have irc bridges as well.
2019-12-16T19:02:42Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, the #lojban Freenode channel is kind of a mess as a result.  There's no way to moderate with all the damn bridges, so the SNR can be pretty low.  #jbosnu is not so bad.
2019-12-16T19:07:32Z zmv: ie #lojban freenode is probably the worst of the bunch unfortunately, it's the most targeted for spam.
2019-12-16T19:08:24Z zmv: although in the other bridges moderation is more effective so it's not too bothersome then.
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2019-12-16T19:13:30Z jcowan: In any case, Toaq obviously belongs to the Loglan family, like Ceqli and gua\spi.
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2019-12-16T19:15:06Z jcowan: ATM whacking is better than hacking on $EMPLOYER's current codebase, because I don't understand most of it.  As that changes, I switch over to hacking.
2019-12-16T19:17:53Z jcowan: But eight tones!  I tried to convince Jim Carter (creator of gua\spi) that four tones is about all people from toneless languages can handle (high level, low level, rising, falling) on the reception side, but to no avail.
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2019-12-16T19:28:51Z jim: hmm? wha?
2019-12-16T19:29:33Z jim: oh, no, I'm not that guy :)
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2019-12-16T19:34:10Z zmv: jcowan: they've actually somewhat streamlined the tone system recently, and the tones are all just syntax
2019-12-16T19:34:24Z jcowan: So they are in gua\spi too
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2019-12-16T19:35:04Z zmv: the streamlining being replacing the falling-rising tone with creaky rising and simplifying creaky falling
2019-12-16T19:35:23Z zmv: jcowan: I see. Never really had interest in gua\spi, I thought there was more to it.
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2019-12-16T19:45:06Z jcowan: Looks like te Toaq tones are just an extension of the gua\spi ones
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2019-12-16T19:46:13Z jcowan: really four will do: down the tree, up the tree, up the tree and down a new branch, and compounding.
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2019-12-16T19:58:46Z pjb: typing: int a=2,b=2,r=a+b;  testing: a=2,b=2,r=a+b,assert(r==a*b);
2019-12-16T19:59:49Z pjb: speecifications were compute the exponential of a to the power of b… (let ((a 2) (b 2) (r (expt a b))) (assert (= r (expt a b))))
2019-12-16T20:00:06Z Riastradh: zig: A static type system is a tool that you _can_ use to detect classes of mistakes at compile time.  Of course, it is a limited tool, and it is not obligatory to use it effectively.
2019-12-16T20:00:54Z pjb: It's just unfortunate that compilation is a late stage optimization technique, not an early development tool…
2019-12-16T20:01:04Z pjb: The REPL is an early development tool.
2019-12-16T20:01:36Z pjb: Most of my programs are compiled only when installed on the end-user systems…
2019-12-16T20:02:22Z pjb: And remember, the Ariane 3 acceleration module type checked perfectly with the Ariane 5 sensors…
2019-12-16T20:04:17Z Riastradh: I dunno about you, but for me a compiler is absolutely an early development tool.
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2019-12-16T20:42:00Z aeth: I'd rather have the compiler catch it (even if it's just a bytecode compiler) than have to run it (or run a third party tool) to catch simple things like a naive interpreter like Python requires.
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2019-12-16T20:43:45Z aeth: Even if fully dynamically typed there's stuff like "foobar = 42 ... fobar = 43 ..." where a compiler can say "hey, did you really mean to create a new fobar that you never use anywhere else?" of course in Scheme/Lisp that's not even an issue at all (okay, it probably shows up in a few places) thanks to the separation of setting and defining.
2019-12-16T20:48:59Z aeth: And compilers can be fast enough to not notice them, e.g. in the CL world, SBCL doesn't even have an interpreter and its REPL actually just compiles the expression.
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2019-12-16T20:50:03Z Zipheir: Ditto Chez.  The compiled/intepreted distinction isn't so firm.
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2019-12-16T20:54:40Z jcowan: IBM used to produce what they called "checkout compilers": fast compile, slow execute, extra-quality error checking and reporting
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2019-12-16T20:57:37Z Zipheir: I guess these days we've replaced those with -Wall -O0 -g, or the like.
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2019-12-16T21:12:42Z jcowan: somewhat, but they don't provide linting
2019-12-16T21:13:12Z jcowan: Using a checkout compiler you could get several compiler runs per day, instead of maybe one every other day
2019-12-16T21:14:07Z aeth: compilers do provide some style advice, depending on the compiler. e.g. iirc C compilers will tell you not to do one-liner if's (not ternary, literally one-liner if's)
2019-12-16T21:14:16Z aeth: for the most part probably nowhere near a linter, though
2019-12-16T21:14:44Z aeth: and linters do provide some checking, e.g. pylint catches my not-actually-python-because-it's-simplified-and-on-one-line Python example.
2019-12-16T21:15:07Z jcowan: pylint does that because it imports your code
2019-12-16T21:15:22Z Riastradh: C linters don't really do much these days.
2019-12-16T21:15:26Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if some compilers are heavily style opinionated (maybe Go's?)
2019-12-16T21:16:11Z aeth: Riastradh: The problem with C and C++ is that for any possible way to do something there is a style that sees it as acceptable. e.g. where do you put the {? do you put a space before the ( after an if/for/etc.? tabs vs. how many spaces?
2019-12-16T21:16:20Z aeth: camelcase vs. underscore, etc.
2019-12-16T21:16:41Z Zipheir: Pointer arithmetic vs. explicit indices...
2019-12-16T21:17:02Z aeth: Lisps are very uniform. Always no tabs, the s-expressions always like "(foo" and not "( foo" and "))))" instead of each on their own line etc. And fairly uniform ; vs. ;;
2019-12-16T21:17:22Z Riastradh: I haven't seen warnings about `one-liner ifs', but GCC and/or Clang do warn about misleading indentation suggesting you forgot the { } around an if branch.
2019-12-16T21:17:35Z aeth: Riastradh: I could've sworn I saw it
2019-12-16T21:17:52Z aeth: You have to keep in mind that it's not just -Wall, it's -Wall -Wextra and probably a few more -Wfoo
2019-12-16T21:18:09Z Riastradh: aeth: Heh.  Funny you should mention ; and ;;.  I recently got an email from a GNU Emacs developer annoyed at the number of semicolons that M-; inserts for top-level comments in paredit.
2019-12-16T21:18:35Z Riastradh: (Apparently in elisp these days, the style convention is to use ;; and not ;;; in top-level comments.)
2019-12-16T21:20:17Z jcowan: Go comes with gofmt and you are expected to run it
2019-12-16T21:20:17Z aeth: Riastradh: elisp is weird then
2019-12-16T21:20:26Z jcowan: Culture drift, that's all.
2019-12-16T21:20:36Z aeth: Riastradh: But I said "; vs. ;;" for a reason and that's because that's where the line stops.
2019-12-16T21:20:53Z aeth: Riastradh: Top level ";;;" as well as if you do ";;;;" for the file header at the very top is, well, more debatable.
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2019-12-16T21:21:15Z aeth: Common Lisp will always do top level ";;;" but argue over ";;;;", but for Scheme you'll argue over ";;;" vs. just ";;" for all line comments, at least with some Schemes
2019-12-16T21:21:33Z aeth: s/line comments/own-line comments/
2019-12-16T21:21:39Z Zipheir: Schemers should just use #| ... |# for multi-line comments.
2019-12-16T21:25:01Z jcowan: Zipheir: "Editor support for block comments is weak, because it requires keeping a detailed intermediate parse state of the whole buffer, which most Emacsen do not do.  At the very least, #|| ... ||# is better, because most Emacsen will see vertical bars as symbol delimiters, and lose trying to read a very, very long symbol, if they try to parse #| ... |#, whereas they will just see two empty symbols and otherwise
2019-12-16T21:25:01Z jcowan: innocuous text between them if they try to parse #||  ... ||#.  In any case, in Emacs, `M-x comment-region RET', or `M-;'  (comment-dwim), is trivial to type."  --Riastradh
2019-12-16T21:25:46Z Zipheir: Heh.
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2019-12-16T21:27:17Z Zipheir: Well, we've got block comments thanks to R7.  Emacs notwithstanding, I see no reason to avoid them, if they're needed.
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2019-12-16T21:32:05Z Riastradh: That was another way of expressing `RRRRGH font lock and editing are busted again in this buffer, stupid #||# and Emacs', I guess.
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2019-12-16T21:45:51Z jcowan: So go with #||...||# as recommended
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2019-12-16T21:55:30Z Zipheir: *grumble*  I love accomodating crufty-but-popular editors. :-p
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2019-12-16T22:17:01Z Riastradh: I don't actually remember recommending #|| ||#.  Not sure I've ever used it myself.
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2019-12-16T22:30:57Z bsima: I like '(define-syntax comment (syntax-rules () ((_ ...) nil)))'
2019-12-16T22:31:29Z bsima: i think only guile support nil, so put null or #f or whatever in place of that
2019-12-16T22:32:01Z Riastradh: Only works in limited conexts.
2019-12-16T22:32:10Z Riastradh: (let ((x     ; comment about x
2019-12-16T22:32:16Z Riastradh:        (+ y z)))
2019-12-16T22:32:18Z Riastradh:   ...)
2019-12-16T22:32:22Z Riastradh: (if (even? x)
2019-12-16T22:32:25Z Riastradh:     ; handle the even case
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2019-12-16T22:32:31Z Riastradh:     ; handle the odd case
2019-12-16T22:32:34Z Riastradh:     (odd-case x))
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2019-12-17T06:12:31Z mdhughes: I mostly use strings and heredoc strings for my block comments, because my doc tool extracts those. #<<DOC \n buncha text \n DOC \n
2019-12-17T06:12:55Z mdhughes: But not every Scheme will allow those.
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2019-12-17T22:08:23Z devon: Hello Schemers!
2019-12-17T22:09:04Z devon: Is there a standard way to access command line arguments and switches?
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2019-12-17T22:21:45Z devon: (i.e., something to parse the list of strings into useful bindings with converted and validated values)
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2019-12-17T22:32:12Z gwatt: devon: command-line I think. I know that's r6rs, not sure if it made it into r7rs
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2019-12-17T22:36:19Z jcowan: gwatt: devon: It's the same in R7RS
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2019-12-17T22:40:45Z devon: But no convenient binding of command line parameters to actions or values in variables, e.g., --verbose doing (set! verbose #t) and the like.
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2019-12-17T23:13:36Z faLUCE: Hello:   (define num 0)   (display (string-append "foobar" (+ num 1)))      <--- how can I append the incremented num to "foobar" ?
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2019-12-17T23:25:17Z Riastradh: devon: 'fraid not standard
2019-12-17T23:25:25Z Riastradh: faLUCE: number->string
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2019-12-17T23:32:26Z faLUCE: thank Riastradh
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2019-12-17T23:39:22Z faLUCE: Riastradh: (display (string-append "foobar_" (number->string (3))))  <... it gives me error
2019-12-17T23:39:39Z Riastradh: What error does it give you?
2019-12-17T23:41:00Z faLUCE: sorry, just fixed
2019-12-17T23:41:16Z faLUCE: Riastradh: (display (string-append "foobar_" (number->string 3 )))
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2019-12-17T23:42:33Z faLUCE: Riastradh: is there a way to increment num globally while calling display?
2019-12-17T23:43:11Z Riastradh: You can use set! to change it.
2019-12-17T23:43:31Z faLUCE: Riastradh: I know, but how can I call set! inside display ?
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2019-12-17T23:47:03Z Riastradh: How would you use it outside display?
2019-12-17T23:55:31Z faLUCE: Riastradh: I think it's better if I show you the snippet: http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/H4ktqqjMJr/  <--- guile is evaluated inside lilypond code
2019-12-17T23:56:12Z faLUCE: I need to increment the output value of "serial" globally
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2019-12-18T00:15:11Z jcowan: set! is a command; it doesn't return a useful value, so you wnat to do it outside the string-append.
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2019-12-18T01:09:55Z Zipheir: faLUCE: It's also really bad style to have mutation be a side-effect of an I/O statement.  Best to break it up.
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2019-12-18T01:23:01Z faLUCE: Zipheir: yeah
2019-12-18T01:23:53Z faLUCE: now:  given   myVar = (('a' . 'aa') ('b' . 'bb'))   <--- how can I add to it  ('c' . 'cc')   ?
2019-12-18T01:24:54Z Zipheir: (append myVar '(("c" . "cc"))).  Or append!, if you want destructive update.
2019-12-18T01:25:22Z Zipheir: That quotation looks not very Schemely, though.  Is 'c' supposed to be 'c or #\c ?
2019-12-18T01:31:24Z Zipheir: (or "c", of course.)
2019-12-18T01:35:42Z faLUCE: Zipheir: http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/N4G5pKDQz2/  <---- it's a fragment inside a lilypond script (which uses scheme)   Instead of having ((id . ,id))  as "output-attributes", I need to have that pair appended to the previous val or "output-attributes"
2019-12-18T01:39:39Z Zipheir: Well, that's kind of gross.
2019-12-18T01:40:29Z faLUCE: sorry, I'm not a scheme coder
2019-12-18T01:41:51Z Zipheir: No, it's just the LilyPond/Scheme combination that's ugly.
2019-12-18T01:42:38Z faLUCE: I know, but that is...
2019-12-18T01:42:54Z Zipheir: faLUCE: Can you express what you want in pure Scheme?
2019-12-18T01:43:28Z faLUCE: Zipheir: unfortunately no. What I want is strictly coupled with lilypond
2019-12-18T01:43:59Z Zipheir: faLUCE: OK.  In that case, I can't really help, sorry.  My LilyPond-fu is limited.
2019-12-18T01:45:53Z faLUCE: Zipheir: I understand. No problem
2019-12-18T01:46:05Z faLUCE: thanks anyay
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2019-12-18T23:47:48Z JalapenoX: hello
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2019-12-18T23:50:52Z JalapenoX: Hey guys, I'm reading "Simply Scheme" and I'm confused on this part
2019-12-18T23:50:58Z JalapenoX: https://paste.debian.net/1121616/
2019-12-18T23:51:41Z JalapenoX: I'm not even sure how to express what's I'm confused about, it's the "keeper" function that is throwing me.
2019-12-18T23:52:43Z JalapenoX: how is the returning a procedure?
2019-12-18T23:53:10Z JohnnyL: JalapenoX: Returning defaults to the last s-exp in the function.
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2019-12-18T23:54:46Z JalapenoX: @JohnnyL ?
2019-12-18T23:55:34Z JohnnyL: hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2019-12-18T23:56:07Z JalapenoX: does s-exp mean sub expression?
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2019-12-18T23:57:05Z JohnnyL: look up s expression on wikipedia.
2019-12-18T23:57:19Z JohnnyL: almost everything in scheme is an s-exp.
2019-12-18T23:57:54Z JohnnyL: so that last s-exp is on the stack for that function. then it automagically gets returned.
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2019-12-19T00:00:11Z JalapenoX: Thank you JohnnyL, I looked up s-exp.
2019-12-19T00:01:13Z JohnnyL: You're very welcome JalapenoX.
2019-12-19T00:02:47Z JalapenoX: I'm still uncertain what you mean by "returning defaults to the last s-exp in the function".
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2019-12-19T00:05:28Z JohnnyL: a function returns that s-exp.
2019-12-19T00:05:39Z JohnnyL: that lambda is a function unto itself.
2019-12-19T00:05:59Z JohnnyL: and that's the last thing on the stack, so it gets returned.
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2019-12-19T00:13:22Z JohnnyL: JalapenoX: we cool?
2019-12-19T00:13:53Z JalapenoX: uhhhhh.....
2019-12-19T00:14:20Z JalapenoX: I'm still kinda trying to figure out what you mean.
2019-12-19T00:15:48Z JalapenoX: https://paste.debian.net/1121619/
2019-12-19T00:15:54Z JalapenoX: Can you walk me through this one?
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2019-12-19T00:17:20Z JalapenoX: The lambda s-exp is created, then invoked by the sentence '(any time at all).
2019-12-19T00:17:32Z JalapenoX: which is returned to every.
2019-12-19T00:18:42Z JalapenoX: Oh I think I get it.  The procedure (word (last wd) (bl wd) is returned to every, then every applies it to every word in the sentence '(any tiem at all)
2019-12-19T00:19:31Z JalapenoX: I didn't think lambda could have two sub expressions like that.
2019-12-19T00:21:31Z JohnnyL: lamda is just label-less function.
2019-12-19T00:25:18Z aeth: Lisps are implicit return languages. There are some languages with more "normal" syntax that do that, too. It usually comes paired with (nearly) everything being an expression, too, since it makes return values the norm. It's not like C++ where you might have a lot of "void"-returning functions.
2019-12-19T00:26:10Z aeth: So returning is normal, so there's no need for (return foo) in every procedure, and you can return some meaningless value in the rare case that you don't really want to return anything. It makes the typical case less verbose.
2019-12-19T00:27:33Z aeth: As for lambda, it just creates an object, in this case an unnamed procedure (function) object.
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2019-12-19T01:45:07Z faLUCE: hello.  myString is   "<script>  foobar   </script>".   How can I replace "<script>" with "token1" and "</script>" with "token2" ?
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2019-12-19T07:55:09Z lockywolf_: Friends, does anyone know some cool open-source library/software for modelling electrodynamics?
2019-12-19T07:55:19Z lockywolf_: Not necessarily in scheme
2019-12-19T07:55:31Z lockywolf_: I know Trilinos ML
2019-12-19T07:56:11Z lockywolf_: But it's kinda a bit low-level
2019-12-19T07:57:41Z lockywolf_: I heard about scmutils, but that's also a lot of development from scratch
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2019-12-19T09:44:10Z lloda: lockywolf_: there is https://meep.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
2019-12-19T09:44:19Z lloda: I got cut off, sorry if I repeat
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2019-12-19T13:59:57Z zig: I am in the process of porting my work on nomunofu to chez scheme. As usual, automated tests help a lot!
2019-12-19T14:00:43Z zig: in the process I improved the wiredtiger bindings.
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2019-12-19T18:44:42Z zig: !
2019-12-19T18:46:07Z zig: I don't believe what I see...
2019-12-19T18:47:27Z zig: well, I need to check the data is really inside the database to make sure it is not a bug.
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2019-12-19T18:56:21Z zig: chez scheme is officially between 5 to 6 times faster than guile to import the test data.
2019-12-19T18:58:53Z zig: with -O3 enabled it is more like 6 times faster.
2019-12-19T19:00:44Z zig: I will compare now against blazegraph and virtuoso.
2019-12-19T19:00:56Z zig: respectively written in Java and C.
2019-12-19T19:01:04Z rgherdt: cool. Thanks for sharing this, nice to see such comparisons with non-toy examples
2019-12-19T19:02:31Z rgherdt: this is comparing with guile 2.9.5, right?
2019-12-19T19:02:51Z zig: guile 2.9.6
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2019-12-19T19:29:46Z zig: I am too lazy to benchmark virtuoso, and I did not save nor remember exact conditions. I will just benchmark guile 2.9.6 vs. chez 9.5.3 (master) over a 6GB.
2019-12-19T19:30:14Z zig: same for blazegraph.
2019-12-19T19:30:32Z zig: too difficult to setup, same for 4store.
2019-12-19T19:30:38Z zig: I am definitly too lazy :D
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2019-12-19T19:57:14Z jcowan: Even Guile 3 can't be compared meaningfully with Chez.  A better comparison would be C/Java as you mention vs. Chez.
2019-12-19T20:01:28Z mdhughes: Gambit & Gerbil should be just as fast, sometimes faster.
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2019-12-19T20:13:46Z rgherdt: by the way, does someone has an idea, how Gambit, Chez and others compare regarding compilation time?
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2019-12-19T20:17:08Z zig: thanks john for the input. I will benchmark virtuoso.
2019-12-19T20:17:16Z rgherdt: s/has/have
2019-12-19T20:17:18Z zig: just it boring to setup that database.
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2019-12-19T20:23:07Z mdhughes: I haven't really timed them on the same thing, but Chez compiles fastest, Chicken a little (a lot) slower, Gambit & Gerbil are slower than that. But both my Chicken & Gerbil projects have a lot of C FFI code which may be dragging the speed down. I would expect on pure Scheme projects Gerbil's faster than Chicken.
2019-12-19T20:24:17Z mdhughes: With Chez compiling has minimal benefit for speed; the JIT compile is so fast you won't improve it much, it's just for packaging.
2019-12-19T20:26:12Z rgherdt: mdhughes: interesting, thanks for the info
2019-12-19T20:28:17Z zig: yeah chickend and gambit are more portable.
2019-12-19T20:28:37Z zig: (I always want to add a 'd' to chicken'
2019-12-19T20:28:53Z mdhughes: I don't like the idea of Chicken Daemons running loose.
2019-12-19T20:29:20Z zig: ]:>
2019-12-19T20:29:25Z zig: `]:>
2019-12-19T20:29:35Z zig: ^ most evil chickend on irc.
2019-12-19T20:29:46Z zig: OH! I did it again!
2019-12-19T20:31:08Z zig: first benchmark on the server, with an XFS file system: https://paste.gnome.org/pvk5ch6vo
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2019-12-19T20:33:01Z zig: oh my scheme!
2019-12-19T20:33:33Z zig: according tho that bencmark, it will take ONLY 4 days to load the whole wikidata latest-all.nt
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2019-12-19T20:34:28Z zig: I am launched virtuoso import process.
2019-12-19T20:34:58Z zig: previously with guile my estimation was 1 month (so things seems to match)
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2019-12-19T20:35:55Z zig: (the 6 times speed up)
2019-12-19T20:36:38Z zig: rgherdt: the hard work as of right now, is mostly C code, at least the benchmark exerice a lot of cffi and guile cffi could be better.
2019-12-19T20:36:50Z zig: (C code I did no write)
2019-12-19T20:41:32Z zig: here the sloccount of chez nomunofu vs. wiredtiger : https://paste.gnome.org/pougf91ya
2019-12-19T20:41:44Z zig: there is 4 times less code in nomunofu
2019-12-19T20:42:07Z zig: at least 4 times less code.
2019-12-19T20:43:49Z zig: since the finalization of srfi-167, I found only one bug.
2019-12-19T20:44:06Z zig: erm.. srfi-168.
2019-12-19T20:44:15Z zig: srfi-167 could have an extensions or two
2019-12-19T20:45:03Z zig: one of the extensions is portable accross backend (distributed vs. embedded) but the other is only embedded...
2019-12-19T20:49:17Z rgherdt: and how was the experience to port those 27k from guile to chez?
2019-12-19T20:49:28Z rgherdt: 27k lines I mean
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2019-12-19T20:56:01Z zig: well, I have chez-arew that r
2019-12-19T20:56:13Z zig: well, I have chez-arew that r7rs-large, it was somewhat easy, took me a day.
2019-12-19T20:56:40Z zig: the most difficult part is cffi of wiredtiger, which I already had a version around, I just improved it.
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2019-12-19T20:57:09Z zig: wihtout the existing wiredtiger cffi, it would have taken at least a day with good knowledge of chez cffi.
2019-12-19T20:58:05Z zig: the other big piece of the program, is parsing the turtle .nt file. That was fully portable once I fixed a the imports.
2019-12-19T20:59:18Z zig: I would say porting between guile and chez is easy because their ffi looks similar, but I don't have knowledge of other cffi (chibi, gambit have another take to ffi)
2019-12-19T20:59:30Z zig: (and chicken)
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2019-12-19T21:02:15Z rgherdt: chicken is quite different if you use something like bind that parses C/C++ files and generate the bindings for you, but I suspect the "regular" ffi with (chicken foreign) shouldn't be that different.
2019-12-19T21:03:11Z rgherdt: but I've never explored guile's ffi
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2019-12-19T21:04:19Z rgherdt: biggest difference IMHO is that it's a source-based FFI
2019-12-19T21:05:22Z zig: the idea with chez and guile, you call (define my-lib (dynamic-shared-lib "mylib.so") then You do  (define my-function (foreign-procedure my-lib "my_function" (type_arg1 type_arg2 ...) type_return))
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2019-12-19T21:06:26Z zig: one difference between chez and guile is that chez foreign API is handled by the compiler, whereas guile rely on libffi.
2019-12-19T21:09:45Z rgherdt: in chicken you do (foreign-lambda type_return "my_function" type_arg1 type_arg2 ...)    , without the dynamic loading. There's also a lazy-ffi egg (not yet ported to Chicken 5 as I see) which also uses libffi
2019-12-19T21:11:02Z zig: (I think that the next impossible project that one must tackled is universal ffi between scheme implementations)
2019-12-19T21:11:39Z zig: (but as far as I understand it requires at least a parser for C headers)
2019-12-19T21:11:54Z zig: (easy part I guess)
2019-12-19T21:12:23Z rgherdt: yes :) That would be awesome
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2019-12-19T21:13:31Z rgherdt: do you mean a parser for bind? That's not mandatory, using (chicken foreign) you declare the foreign functions manually
2019-12-19T21:13:54Z rgherdt: the C header is just included directly in the generated C code
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2019-12-19T21:14:55Z rgherdt: by the way, did someone here already try to implement a cross scheme FFI solution?
2019-12-19T21:17:33Z weinholt: rgherdt, the author of Sagittarius did: https://github.com/ktakashi/r6rs-pffi
2019-12-19T21:18:59Z rgherdt: that's nice!
2019-12-19T21:19:04Z rgherdt: thanks
2019-12-19T21:19:18Z nisstyre: rgherdt: chicken compiles to C so can it not just generate C code that uses the appropriate types?
2019-12-19T21:19:34Z nisstyre: or is that what you just said
2019-12-19T21:19:51Z rgherdt: exactly :)
2019-12-19T21:19:57Z nisstyre: yeah I misread
2019-12-19T21:20:33Z nisstyre: on a side note, the Chicken RTS is an ungodly mess of thousands of lines of C in one file
2019-12-19T21:20:45Z nisstyre: I mean
2019-12-19T21:20:49Z zig: scheme #win (it is 5 minutes faster that virtuoso written in C). That is that a 11% speed up.
2019-12-19T21:20:49Z nisstyre: if it works it works
2019-12-19T21:20:52Z nisstyre: but it's scary as hell
2019-12-19T21:21:04Z nisstyre: Guile is much more hackable
2019-12-19T21:21:09Z zig: scheme #win (it is 5 minutes faster that virtuoso written in C). That is that a 11% speed up.
2019-12-19T21:21:15Z zig: scheme #win (it is 5 minutes faster that virtuoso written in C). That is that a 11% speed up. \cc jcowan
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2019-12-19T21:21:30Z nisstyre: and the Guile C API is really nice to work with
2019-12-19T21:22:18Z rgherdt: I have to check that. Currently I'm exploring chicken's ffi, guile's ffi is next on my TODO list
2019-12-19T21:22:21Z nisstyre: you can just write your C code and construct guile return types and then register the functions and load your Guile code
2019-12-19T21:22:32Z nisstyre: and then the Guile can call your C functions
2019-12-19T21:23:00Z nisstyre: instead of having to do the libffi thing and duplicate the type information
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2019-12-19T21:23:32Z nisstyre: e.g. https://github.com/weskerfoot/Schemekit/blob/master/scheme_functions.h
2019-12-19T21:25:25Z rgherdt: that's cool
2019-12-19T21:25:53Z nisstyre: yes, and Guile has functions built in to serialize pointers
2019-12-19T21:26:02Z nisstyre: so you can pass them back and forth between your scheme and C code
2019-12-19T21:26:25Z nisstyre: if you really need to that is
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2019-12-19T21:31:28Z rgherdt: thanks for the tips
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2019-12-19T21:48:30Z rgherdt: zig: that's awesome :)
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2019-12-19T22:52:07Z jcowan: nisstyre: Chicken was designed that way so you could transport your compiled code + chicken.h + runtime.c to any arbitrary box with C and make it work.  With eggs, that's tricky but still possible.
2019-12-19T22:55:59Z faLUCE: hello. myVar contains the content  of a text file, which I have to copy inside a html document.  Then, according to HTML standard, I have to replace special characters like  <, >, / etc.     What's the easiest way to do that, in scheme?
2019-12-19T22:56:16Z faLUCE: (guile)
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2019-12-20T00:21:15Z wasamasa: faLUCE: have you looked at srfi-13?
2019-12-20T00:28:32Z faLUCE: wasamasa: What exactly?
2019-12-20T00:28:50Z wasamasa: all of it really
2019-12-20T00:29:10Z wasamasa: it's the most you can expect of cross-scheme string functionality
2019-12-20T00:29:14Z wasamasa: that and what's in the standard
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2019-12-20T00:32:05Z faLUCE: wasamasa: sorry, I don't code in scheme (I can understand the code, though). I wonder if this function must be written, or is there anything builtin
2019-12-20T00:32:24Z faLUCE: I mean: do I have to implement a char-replace function based on regex?
2019-12-20T00:32:24Z wasamasa: chances are you'll have to write it yourself
2019-12-20T00:32:33Z pjb: faLUCE: Well, if you don't already know srfi-13 and from a look at the TOC you can't see exactly what function could help you (ie. you will have to spend time to learn it), the easiest way to do that, in scheme, is to write the code you need yourself, in scheme.
2019-12-20T00:32:44Z pjb: Writing code in scheme is easy anyways.
2019-12-20T00:33:03Z wasamasa: regex is outside the standard and in a rather new srfi, guile should have something appropriate for that though
2019-12-20T00:33:21Z faLUCE: pjb: is srfi a library with function for string manipulation?
2019-12-20T00:33:35Z pjb: And you don't need regex to do what you want, since you need to replace only single characters.
2019-12-20T00:34:22Z wasamasa: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Regular-Expressions.html#Regular-Expressions
2019-12-20T00:34:23Z pjb: faLUCE: a srfi is a Scheme Request For Implementation, is a document that specifies some library. Those libraries are sometimes (often) implemented for each of the various scheme implementations.
2019-12-20T00:34:39Z pjb: faLUCE: http://schemers.org
2019-12-20T00:35:03Z faLUCE: pjb: then I have to ask in guile
2019-12-20T00:35:05Z wasamasa: regexp-substitute/global looks appropriate
2019-12-20T00:35:11Z faLUCE: (given that my program uses guile)
2019-12-20T00:35:36Z pjb: faLUCE: start with a map: (define entities '((#\< . "&lt;") (#\> . "&gt;") (#\& . "&amp;") …)) and then scan the string for any character in this a-list.
2019-12-20T00:37:11Z faLUCE: pjb: I can use  #(use-modules (ice-9 regex))
2019-12-20T00:37:53Z pjb: Perhaps, but you don't need regexps to do that.
2019-12-20T00:38:08Z faLUCE: pjb: yes, I thought so. overkill
2019-12-20T00:38:14Z wasamasa: sure, it just means that you're now relying on implementation-specific functionality
2019-12-20T00:38:25Z wasamasa: this is usually not a problem
2019-12-20T00:44:58Z pilne: if your first solution to a problem is a regex, now you have two problems :p
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2019-12-20T05:41:44Z mdhughes: faLUCE: The way I'd attack that is mapping over the chars: https://paste.debian.net/1121846
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2019-12-20T05:42:32Z mdhughes: Making a string for each char is wasteful, but string-join sucks; writing one that takes any arguments and displays them would be more efficient.
2019-12-20T05:45:44Z mdhughes: Any regex solution is going to produce a full new string for every replacement, which could be much worse on large inputs.
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2019-12-20T14:53:01Z jcowan: Texts (SRFI 135) are much better than strings, but nobody that I know of has made regexes run on texts
2019-12-20T14:53:39Z jcowan: In at least one Scheme, (*senior moment*), strings are ropes and concatenation is very efficient.
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2019-12-20T15:24:03Z mdhughes: I would expect higher memory usage for ropes, tho? Probably a smart compiler would make a class cluster for strings, with 0-length as a singleton, 1-length as a box, an immutable variant of the current String, and replace that with ropes when you mutate or append.
2019-12-20T15:26:20Z mdhughes: I'm kind of morally opposed to mutable strings, but C and Scheme were both written by maniacs.
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2019-12-20T15:36:42Z Riastradh: jcowan: If texts are what I think they are (and we're not talking about some postmodern deconstructionism of Scheme), why would making regexps work on them be remarkable?  Easy to make an NFA run octet-by-octet on any internal encoding you want, and even to compile whichever normalization you want into an NFA.
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2019-12-20T15:41:28Z jcowan: Not remarkable, just remarkably useful if you want to use texts, which are indeed (~~ reads Riastradh's mind ~~) what you think they are.
2019-12-20T15:45:00Z jcowan: "In *my* Scheme implementation, there is nothing outside the text."   -Not Derrida
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2019-12-20T16:09:23Z Riastradh: ew, not what I thought
2019-12-20T16:09:57Z Riastradh: Everything should be UTF-8 and code points shouldn't be prioritized as the naturally numbered unit.
2019-12-20T16:10:14Z Riastradh: Octets are a good naturally numbered unit because you can make a reasonably sized table of them.
2019-12-20T16:10:36Z Riastradh: And they're the standard addressing unit on essentially all computers.
2019-12-20T16:10:48Z Riastradh: (with apologies to the PDP-10)
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2019-12-20T16:50:50Z mdhughes: That's what a Latin-alphabet-user says, but asian languages are a pain in the ass with octets.
2019-12-20T16:52:22Z mdhughes: UCS-32 would be my ideal encoding if memory wasn't an issue. Or perhaps an array of arrays of octets.
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2019-12-20T16:53:07Z Riastradh: Raw Asian languages, yes; Asian languages with markup, not so much.
2019-12-20T16:54:37Z Riastradh: If by UCS-32 you mean UCS-4 or UTF-32, that's a huge waste to prioritize a unit, the code point, that doesn't match human expectations for the units that text usually breaks down into, which are usually grapheme clusters.
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2019-12-20T17:02:06Z jcowan: Preach it, brother!  But grapheme clusters have their own problems: there is a denumerable infinity of them, and the natural unit in Indic writing is aksharas, which may contain 2 (possibly more) consonant clusters.
2019-12-20T17:03:00Z jcowan: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5324#comment-92068
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2019-12-20T18:00:07Z mdhughes: "if memory wasn't an issue". Markup in most systems is 10-25% of the text, sometimes much less (Markdown), so prioritizing Latin-1 bigotry over the native language of the writer isn't going to improve matters. UTF-8 is stupidly wasteful on any Asian script, and on emoji, etc., which are an increasing percentage of what people write.
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2019-12-20T18:19:40Z jcowan: 95%+ of all Internet traffic is video
2019-12-20T18:19:51Z erkin: Cat videos, to be specific.
2019-12-20T18:19:57Z jcowan: No doubt.
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2019-12-20T18:20:37Z jcowan: In any case, with immutable or rarely mutated strings, it's perfectly reasonable to have 8-bit, 16-bit, and 32-bit underlying representations.  Java 9+ does this with 8-bit and 16-bit.
2019-12-20T18:21:11Z jcowan: Mutable but fixed-length strings are not really a use case for much of anything.
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2019-12-20T20:18:16Z faLUCE: mdhughes: thanks!
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2019-12-20T20:26:29Z mdhughes: jcowan, erkin: I don't plan to store cat videos in strings.
2019-12-20T20:27:04Z erkin: Now that's just defeatism.
2019-12-20T20:27:57Z jcowan: Supporting them in mercury delay lines might make some sense
2019-12-20T20:30:22Z mdhughes: faLUCE: No problem!
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2019-12-20T21:05:59Z pjb: mdhughes: you don't plan, but what happens once you call (get-resource "http://cat.com/best-cat.jpg") and get the result as a string?
2019-12-20T21:06:19Z pjb: or s/jpg/avi/
2019-12-20T21:06:45Z mdhughes: "You're holding it wrong"
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2019-12-20T21:08:22Z uplime: its a shame that 404's
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2019-12-20T21:37:57Z mdhughes: One last serious moment, then away to bed: Don't do synchronous, one-shot URL loading in your software. HTTP(S) is a conversation, building up a series of requests, auth challenges, cache checks, redirects, data segments as they load, errors. You can put a wrapper on that, but in any real application you need to be able to do that conversation.
2019-12-20T21:38:52Z mdhughes: The model I like is the Objective-C NSURLConnection, tho Apple's "deprecated" it now because C++ idiots took over. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/nsurlconnection?language=objc
2019-12-20T21:39:48Z mdhughes: And at no point is that returning strings, but NSData, u8vector would be the Scheme equivalent.
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2019-12-20T21:51:52Z pjb: mdhughes: of course. But it has been seen results are returned in a string…
2019-12-20T21:52:42Z mdhughes: That's not correct. Content-Type: text/* should be strings, but application/octet-stream, or any image/*, is binary data.
2019-12-20T21:53:19Z mdhughes: If you just read HTTP as a string, you're gonna have a bad day when the bytes are invalid UTF-8.
2019-12-20T21:53:36Z pjb: Indeed.
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2019-12-20T22:02:49Z jcowan: Technically text/* is 8859-1 unless marked otherwise, but I'm not sure that's either exploited by senders or expected by receivers nowadays.
2019-12-20T22:05:22Z mdhughes: In theory, but in practice it was always CP1252 until it was always UTF-8.
2019-12-20T22:05:40Z mdhughes: I still get some CP1252 on old sites, tho.
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2019-12-21T00:02:44Z faLUCE: hello. What's wrong in this syntax?  (list (cons "editableClass" editableClass)(cons "editableSubclass" editableClass))
2019-12-21T00:02:58Z faLUCE: it's ok for  (list (cons "editableClass" editableClass))
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2019-12-21T00:08:53Z pjb: (let ((editableClass 'foo)) (list (cons "editableClass" editableClass)(cons "editableSubclass" editableClass))) #| --> (("editableClass" . foo) ("editableSubclass" . foo)) |#  nothing wrong.
2019-12-21T00:09:15Z pjb: as long as editableClass is bound of course.
2019-12-21T00:11:36Z faLUCE: thnks
2019-12-21T00:12:07Z faLUCE: this is a sort of nightmare for me. I have to solve some scheme code without knowing a word of this language
2019-12-21T00:12:20Z faLUCE: obvioulsy you would say: learn it!
2019-12-21T00:12:25Z faLUCE: But I realy can't
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2019-12-21T00:18:48Z pjb: faLUCE: Why can't you learn such a small language? You have to read less than 35 pages of the r5rs!
2019-12-21T00:19:11Z pjb: faLUCE: https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2019-12-21T00:25:20Z faLUCE: pjb: really is it so short?
2019-12-21T00:25:27Z faLUCE: but why it doesn't have libraries?
2019-12-21T00:25:28Z pjb: Yes.
2019-12-21T00:25:43Z faLUCE: I see that for making dummy things I have to write code
2019-12-21T00:25:50Z pjb: Check the PDF: https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf
2019-12-21T00:25:57Z faLUCE: this doesn't happen in other languages
2019-12-21T00:26:05Z pjb: Chapter 7 Formal Syntax is not useful.
2019-12-21T00:26:47Z pjb: faLUCE: I'm used to languages with short specifications. For example, The Pascal Report is not much bigger.
2019-12-21T00:28:25Z faLUCE: pjb: so, the advantage of scheme is that it has short specs and the disadvantage is that you have to make big code for dummy things?
2019-12-21T00:29:00Z pjb: faLUCE: this has been corrected with r7rs. r7rs is specified in two part, a small core language one, and a big library part.
2019-12-21T00:29:20Z pjb: faLUCE: So you can choose to spend a little more time, and read the r7rs specifications.
2019-12-21T00:29:40Z pjb: https://small.r7rs.org
2019-12-21T00:29:48Z faLUCE: thnks, I'll have a look
2019-12-21T00:30:17Z pjb: https://schemers.org
2019-12-21T00:30:38Z faLUCE: the biggest problem is that currently I code in about 8 different languages, and the scheme syntax really makes me headache
2019-12-21T00:30:51Z faLUCE: when I have to switch from let's say python to scheme
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2019-12-21T00:44:01Z pilne: i have the reverse, i love the lisp/scheme syntax and everything else bugs me at this point lol.
2019-12-21T00:47:27Z pjb: faLUCE: yes, use sexps everywhere. There are packages to generate random syntaxes from sexps.  And if there's not, it's trivial to write one.
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2019-12-21T01:52:37Z jcowan: pjb: What are these packages of which you speak?
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2019-12-21T04:02:21Z pjb: jcowan: systems, libraries, modules, programs, bodies of code, whatever.
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2019-12-21T04:36:39Z jcowan: pjb: Pfft.  Packages that generate random syntaxes from sexps, I meant.
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2019-12-21T04:49:40Z pilne: schemetran lets you write human-readable fortran in scheme :D
2019-12-21T04:51:30Z uplime: what a time to be alive
2019-12-21T04:57:12Z pjb: jcowan: liskell, linj, linc, parenscript, etc.
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2019-12-21T05:20:28Z mdhughes: faLUCE: I always recommend TSPL as the tutorial book, if you program. It works best with Chez Scheme, and the R6RS version has libraries included.
2019-12-21T05:20:52Z mdhughes: In production I'm using Chicken, which is R5RS/sorta R7RS, with an enormous number of libraries.
2019-12-21T05:22:24Z mdhughes: It's a weird and sometimes unpleasant language to read/write, but it's super useful, and fast. It's replaced Python and JS for application dev for me.
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2019-12-21T06:33:45Z Zipheir: Scheme is "weird and sometimes unpleasant"?
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2019-12-21T06:39:47Z mdhughes: ))))))))
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2019-12-21T06:41:59Z mdhughes: (vector-ref (vector-ref (vector-ref vec z) y) x)  vs.  vec[z][y][x]
2019-12-21T06:42:55Z mdhughes: My complaints about strings are many and unsolveable.
2019-12-21T06:46:26Z mdhughes: So far it's been worth putting up with to have a fast, native compiled dynamic lang, and some things can be solved that are hard to fix in other languages. But there's a bunch of reasons LISP in general and Scheme in particular isn't the #1 TIOBE language.
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2019-12-21T07:31:23Z CORDIC: Some say ""Scheme is a Lisp that tries to become SML"".  I agree, ""Scheme is Algol of Lisp family""!  https://xkcd.com/312/
2019-12-21T07:32:13Z Zipheir: Pfft.  Also, ALGOL (60) is a great language.
2019-12-21T07:32:46Z aeth: Scheme tends to be more inconvenient for non-list data structures than Common Lisp, e.g. that vector-ref example in CL would be (aref (aref (aref vec z) y) x) and actually, it would be more idiomatically (aref vec z y x)
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2019-12-21T07:33:06Z aeth: On the plus side, nothing's stopping an implementation from adding convenient non-list data structures like CL, and even going beyond CL (I can think of half a dozen that CL doesn't have)
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2019-12-21T07:34:03Z aeth: "vector-ref" is probably a good example of a rare exception to short names being bad. I really hate short names, and I think that's one of the key flaws of Clojure... However for something whose main equivalent in other languages tends to be "[]", the shorter the better. Here, "vref" or whatever could actually make sense.
2019-12-21T07:34:15Z pjb: mdhughes: (define (array-ref array . indices) (if (null? indices) array (apply array-ref (vector-ref array (car indices)) (cdr indices))))
2019-12-21T07:34:25Z pjb: mdhughes: (array-ref vec x y z)
2019-12-21T07:34:47Z aeth: I mean "def" or "d" or whatever instead of "define" is just nonsense. But that's because you tend to only have one define a line. You can have as many vector-refs a line as you want, so it's kind of like +. You want a short name.
2019-12-21T07:34:49Z mdhughes: I have my own function vref which does something like that.
2019-12-21T07:35:22Z pjb: That's the point.
2019-12-21T07:35:58Z mdhughes: Yeah, but it's *awful* that the default in the language is this giant mess. You do a lot of work to fix it.
2019-12-21T07:36:32Z aeth: mdhughes: I mean, that's kind of what Scheme is. There's this tiny standard and to work within that standard, it actually takes a lot of, well, work. And implementations are probably not as bold at adding convenience features as they should be.
2019-12-21T07:37:14Z aeth: The correct solution is probably a SRFI (and there are probably several that address this)
2019-12-21T07:37:17Z pjb: mdhughes: the point is that it's very rare a program where you need to index multi-dimensional arrays.
2019-12-21T07:37:39Z aeth: pjb: eh... 0 dimensional and 3+ dimensional? rare. 2D? they're matrices, and that's pretty common
2019-12-21T07:37:49Z mdhughes: In real software, processing data and presenting it? No, it's the most common kind of thing.
2019-12-21T07:37:53Z pjb: mdhughes: so it is more important that you'd be able to define your own language with macros and functional abstractions, rather than use a language optimized for fortran problems.
2019-12-21T07:38:17Z pjb: aeth: 99% of the programs don't need 2D+ arrays.
2019-12-21T07:38:43Z pjb: aeth: only FORTRAN programs, and even, that's because FORTRAN doesn't have structures…
2019-12-21T07:38:45Z aeth: pjb: I mean, the amount of programs that could benefit from or use matrices that are interesting (not yet another web app) is probably closer to like 30%...
2019-12-21T07:38:51Z mdhughes: pjb: I dunno what programs you're writing, but they absolutely do.
2019-12-21T07:39:01Z aeth: pjb: Probably 0.1% not 1% if you count all of the non-interesting stuff like yet another blog engine
2019-12-21T07:39:14Z pjb: Again the point is that the language may be molded to your specific needs.
2019-12-21T07:39:32Z mdhughes: Easy test, look at the Advent of Code or Project Euler problems. TONS of matrix math and grid modelling problems.
2019-12-21T07:39:47Z aeth: right
2019-12-21T07:40:09Z pjb: mdhughes: fits my point perfectly. AoC or PE are not representative of real programs. They're student exercices.
2019-12-21T07:40:13Z aeth: I definitely am being conservative when I say 30% of interesting programs involve linear algebra (especially matrices)
2019-12-21T07:40:31Z mdhughes: Games, which is what I mostly care about, are very heavily based on grid modelling or matrix math.
2019-12-21T07:40:58Z aeth: yes, so technically speaking, probably like 90% of interesting programs (as in interesting to the user, not the programmer) use matrix math
2019-12-21T07:40:59Z mdhughes: Any kind of AI or logic processing, which is in almost everything now.
2019-12-21T07:41:39Z aeth: linear algebra is broadly applicable enough that most computer science undergraduate programs require it afaik, although it really is a thing that you either use every day or never see again past being a beginner programmer
2019-12-21T07:42:33Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if just about every program falls into one of two (non-mutually-exclusive) categories: text processing or linear algebra. Of course, text is pretty common with the web.
2019-12-21T07:42:57Z mdhughes: aeth: Yep. Admittedly everyone I know is either making games, scientific software, or web stuff (which just needs nice string processing, which Scheme is iffy on).
2019-12-21T07:44:32Z aeth: Between SIMD and GPUs, it really helps to try to make your problem into a linear algebra problem if you can in any way do so.
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2019-12-21T15:46:08Z ecraven: ;)
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2019-12-21T17:00:09Z zig: hello #scheme :)
2019-12-21T17:04:52Z zig: I have been reading on wasm all day (+ yesterday)
2019-12-21T17:05:13Z zig: wasm = web assembly.
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2019-12-21T17:08:16Z Zipheir: zig: Are you planning the great Scheme To Wasm Compiler?
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2019-12-21T17:09:21Z zig: At this point I can only do cosmectic comments, for instance the 'folded' (or not) text format that looks like s-expr is not perfect.  wasm is a stack based language (like forth?).  I wonder why instructions without immediates are written without parens e.g. (block (result i32) (table.get $values (i32.const 0)) (local.get $foobar) i32.add).  The previous block of code will get a integer from a table called
2019-12-21T17:09:24Z zig: $values and get the local variable called $foobar and add both integers. See `i32.add` stand alone without parens.
2019-12-21T17:10:00Z zig: maybe it is a problem with the wasm text to wasm binary tool that I am using (wabt).
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2019-12-21T17:11:28Z zig: Zipheir: I am reading about it, it seems like the way forward.  People write that it might become the universal assembly language?!  Yes, I will try to implement a compiler.
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2019-12-21T17:12:06Z wasamasa: the people writing that never read the specs
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2019-12-21T17:12:21Z zig: also variable names, using wabt tool, all start with $ dollar sign.
2019-12-21T17:12:34Z wasamasa: it feels like a huge wart to me
2019-12-21T17:12:56Z jcowan: Chibi can be built to run (as a whole) on Wasm machines.
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2019-12-21T17:13:35Z zig: The spec says: "to enable high performance applications on the Web, but it does not make any Web-specific assumptions or provide Web-specific features, so it can be employed in other environments as well."  https://www.w3.org/TR/2019/REC-wasm-core-1-20191205/#introduction%E2%91%A2
2019-12-21T17:14:01Z jcowan: There is also Schism, a POC compiler to Wasm; I don't know how useful this would be as a base for further extension.
2019-12-21T17:14:51Z zig: wasamasa: here is a software that use wasm outside of the web browser: https://wasmer.io/.
2019-12-21T17:15:22Z wasamasa throws up a little
2019-12-21T17:16:03Z zig: I could rely on schism, it already does a lot, but I am to practice nanopass framework.
2019-12-21T17:16:14Z wasamasa: "Contact sales"
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2019-12-21T17:16:38Z zig: wasamasa: what does it mean?
2019-12-21T17:16:47Z wasamasa: I dunno, nothing good usually
2019-12-21T17:16:55Z wasamasa: at least there's no pricing mentioned anywhere
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2019-12-21T17:19:22Z zig: I feel like "in love with a shiny new toy" like I am still a kid.
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2019-12-21T17:19:48Z jcowan: "Computers are the greatest set of electric trains in the world."
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2019-12-21T17:21:57Z jcowan: SRFI 123 provides generalized (but not user-extensible) ref/set operators that let you walk heterogeneous structures like vectors of lists of hashtables very nicely.
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2019-12-21T17:22:33Z wasamasa: one of the weird things is the discrepancy between pseudo control structures (block, loop, if) and branching to labels (br, br_if, br_table)
2019-12-21T17:22:40Z wasamasa: as if they wanted you to write it by hand
2019-12-21T17:23:21Z wasamasa: like the ccl programs in emacs
2019-12-21T17:23:45Z wasamasa: there's a sexp language with similar names and a byte-code format that's not aware of these
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2019-12-21T17:24:28Z wasamasa: but that's not the case in wasm, the binary format is still aware of these
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2019-12-21T17:24:44Z wasamasa: there's a blog post going into this issue in more detail
2019-12-21T17:24:57Z zig: it took me time to understand how br, br_if and br_table works. br-fu is not really goto and has different semantic inside loop or block (IIUC).
2019-12-21T17:25:41Z wasamasa: ponder whether an obscure encoding VM in emacs has better design than something touted to become the universal assembly language
2019-12-21T17:25:49Z wasamasa: I wouldn't be surprised
2019-12-21T17:26:45Z zig: I do not think you want to write deeply nested block or loop by hand, who does nest loops anyway? Also the br takes an index not a label, that makes it less likely to use by hand.
2019-12-21T17:28:20Z zig: an index that start at 0 the current block, which means (br 0) has different semantic depending on the block / loop nesting (adding to the difference between block and loop)
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2019-12-21T17:29:16Z zig: someone made a proposal for funclets (https://github.com/WebAssembly/design/issues/1227). Is anyone familiar with those?
2019-12-21T17:30:42Z zig: apparantly it can help "to create arbitrary control flow pattern" with the goal of replacing tail-call optimization in wasm engines.
2019-12-21T17:34:00Z jcowan: Lisp as a whole is a proof that worse is better.
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2019-12-21T17:36:12Z zig: I was under the impression that lisp people were trying to do the Right Thing...
2019-12-21T17:36:43Z wasamasa: I think it was http://troubles.md/posts/why-do-we-need-the-relooper-algorithm-again/
2019-12-21T17:37:23Z gwatt: zig: that's the point of the original rant. lisps are "better", but being worse has better survival traits so the worse options are more popular and see more improvement.
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2019-12-21T17:38:38Z wasamasa: here's my findings on CCL: http://emacsninja.com/posts/code-conversion-language.html
2019-12-21T17:38:57Z wasamasa: I'd like to see more interesting things done with non-turing-complete languages
2019-12-21T17:39:34Z gwatt: wasamasa: but all the "interesting" non-turing complete languages tend towards turing completeness.
2019-12-21T17:39:35Z ggole: Funclets seem like what you get from contification of let rec-bound functions
2019-12-21T17:39:52Z wasamasa: gwatt: take a look at that one
2019-12-21T17:40:05Z wasamasa: gwatt: and yes, that seems the way of the dodo
2019-12-21T17:40:15Z wasamasa: gwatt: it happened to sql, css and who knows what else
2019-12-21T17:40:43Z gwatt: wasamasa: don't forget various type systems!
2019-12-21T17:40:46Z gwatt: or movq
2019-12-21T17:41:10Z wasamasa: I asked someone the other day how one would even do a syscall with movq
2019-12-21T17:41:21Z wasamasa: they weren't able to answer properly, but happily touted it's good enough
2019-12-21T17:41:26Z jcowan: I remember a language (but no details) based on a separation of unwritable data and unreadable codata
2019-12-21T17:41:45Z gwatt: jcowan: an esolang I assume?
2019-12-21T17:41:58Z jcowan: Sure, but it was mentioned on LTU, I remember that
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2019-12-21T17:44:23Z jcowan: Ah, Charity:  http://pll.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/charity1/www/home.html
2019-12-21T17:47:02Z gwatt: wasamasa: To me, turing completeness is only interesting in languages that aren't designed to be general purpose tools, like CSS. Even then, it's mostly of note because you can cause an infinite loop, which would be a problem if it happens in your typechecker.
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2019-12-21T17:50:44Z jcowan: In fact no *implementation* can be Turing complete, because there is no way to model infinitely long tapes.
2019-12-21T17:51:12Z gwatt: *practical turing completeness* then
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2019-12-21T18:49:24Z CORDIC: WebAssembly is a stupid and sick joke.  JavaScript is for serving Ads.  Are You surprised JavaScript... Developers won't tell JavaScript... Users what it's true purpose is!?
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2019-12-21T18:56:07Z zig: jcowan and gwatt: re "worse is better, lisp is the worst". What is the url of the original rant?
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2019-12-21T18:56:54Z Zipheir: CORDIC: Don't let them immanentize the eschaton!
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2019-12-21T19:00:36Z jcowan: zig: https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html see also the WP article
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2019-12-21T19:25:55Z Zipheir: I don't recall Gabriel ever writing "LISP is the worst".  That would be kind of a shock.
2019-12-21T19:28:25Z jcowan: The "worst" in the sense "least successful in a Darwinian sense"
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2019-12-21T19:33:11Z Zipheir: Ah, ok.
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2019-12-21T20:05:28Z zig: tx
2019-12-21T20:09:18Z Zipheir: I guess "less good", not "worst", in a Darwinian sense.  LISP is obscure, but not out to pasture.
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2019-12-21T20:15:42Z erkin: Zipheir: Fnord
2019-12-21T20:15:58Z erkin: At the very least a lot of Lisp ideas eventually made their way into mainstream languages.
2019-12-21T20:16:27Z erkin: I'm sure that even if Lisp were to die off one day, Lisp hackers would carve Lispy portions from existing languages.
2019-12-21T20:17:31Z erkin: From what I've seen, Lisp hackers tend to be stubborn about letting go of their toys, so I don't think it could suffer a fate like, say, Algol, which simply got absorbed into other languages.
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2019-12-21T20:26:26Z zig:  Zipheir nice rhyme!
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2019-12-21T20:26:57Z Zipheir: zig: I rhymed??
2019-12-21T20:27:22Z zig: Zipheir: "LISP is obscure, but not out to pasture."
2019-12-21T20:27:47Z Zipheir: zig: Heh, the stresses on obscure/pasture don't match in English.
2019-12-21T20:27:54Z zig: oh!
2019-12-21T20:28:16Z Zipheir: ob*scure* ... *pas*ture.
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2019-12-21T20:28:35Z zig: in globish it works ;)
2019-12-21T20:28:40Z Zipheir: Indeed :)
2019-12-21T20:28:44Z zig: I guess I will never be an english poet :)
2019-12-21T20:29:25Z zig: TIL: in amazigh, the word to say "poet", can be translated with "the explainer"
2019-12-21T20:30:15Z Zipheir: That's fantastic.
2019-12-21T20:31:08Z zig: also poetry in amazigh is mostly spoken.
2019-12-21T20:32:02Z zig: afaik.
2019-12-21T20:33:47Z Zipheir: zig: Am I wrong to guess at a pattern in your nicks?  am3+zig+...?
2019-12-21T20:33:56Z Zipheir: *amz3 + zig + ...
2019-12-21T20:34:00Z zig: yes :)
2019-12-21T20:34:11Z Zipheir: OK, I am wrong.
2019-12-21T20:34:17Z zig: no
2019-12-21T20:34:24Z Zipheir: Ah. :)
2019-12-21T20:34:33Z zig: amz3 + zig looks like amazigh
2019-12-21T20:34:52Z zig: but amz3 is also a knife for "adventurers" to I decided for zig.
2019-12-21T20:35:03Z mdhughes: jcowan: SRFI-123 is nice but takes a perf hit, which isn't good in the tasks where you need a matrix.
2019-12-21T20:35:21Z zig: re srfi-123, make me think of transducers.
2019-12-21T20:35:52Z zig: they several a somewhat similar purpose
2019-12-21T20:36:09Z zig: s/several/serve/
2019-12-21T20:36:57Z zig: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-171/srfi-171.html
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2019-12-21T20:38:22Z mdhughes: WASM always looks to me like it should be the implementation layer of a FORTH.
2019-12-21T20:38:51Z zig: that is why I was talking about it in #bootstrappable
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2019-12-21T20:39:17Z zig: but the syntax is not FORTH-like
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2019-12-21T20:41:43Z mdhughes: Sure, you'd build the usual FORTH REPL on top of it, immediately compile term definitions into more WASM.
2019-12-21T20:42:55Z mdhughes: Just as you do when you write a FORTH in any native assembly; but the stack orientation and primitive function calling is what made it look well suited to it. Just like 68000 ASM did.
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2019-12-21T20:45:59Z zig` is now known as zig``
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2019-12-21T21:40:52Z jcowan: mdhughes: Then use SRFI 125 (it will take a bit of portability adjustment) if you want MD arrays.  It's optimized for ranks 1-4
2019-12-21T21:41:44Z mdhughes: srfi-125 is hash-tables?
2019-12-21T21:41:56Z jcowan: sorry
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2019-12-21T21:42:12Z jcowan: 122
2019-12-21T21:42:23Z jcowan: too many SRFI numbers to remember
2019-12-21T21:43:08Z jcowan: There is also 163, but the implementation is very Kawa-specific (including some Java code)
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2019-12-21T21:46:13Z mdhughes: Yeah, just found that. Horrifyingly abstruse explanation and API, tho. Make the easy things calculus, the hard things set theory.
2019-12-21T21:48:49Z mdhughes: The original email by Alan Bawden is fine. The SRFI-122 spec is maybe the worst one I've read.
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2019-12-21T21:50:39Z mdhughes: s/email/USENET post (man, I miss USENET)/
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2019-12-21T21:53:00Z mdhughes: Also wayback, there's SRFI-25, also based on Alan's post, but not written to be as incomprehensible as possible.
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2019-12-21T22:40:35Z mdhughes: On days when I'm not getting much productive done, I should do a random SRFI review & sample code on my blog.
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2019-12-21T22:42:07Z wasamasa: "Too academic, wouldn't use, 2/10"
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2019-12-21T22:50:20Z mdhughes: I use a ★★★★★ scale, but yes. Challenge will be using each one in any productive way, some are hard to understand the point of.
2019-12-21T22:56:15Z jcowan: I agree that the prose is very non-tutorial, but I think the API is actually very good.
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2019-12-21T23:27:29Z mdhughes: Well, made a category page. Will do something with it tomorrow/when sober. https://mdhughes.tech/scheme/
2019-12-21T23:29:33Z wasamasa: pink and green
2019-12-21T23:29:52Z mdhughes: Is there any kind of quasi-official logo for Scheme?
2019-12-21T23:29:53Z wasamasa: that's the name of an EP, you know
2019-12-21T23:30:00Z mdhughes: magenta, technically.
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2019-12-21T23:30:44Z mdhughes: #ff33ff and #33ff33
2019-12-21T23:31:41Z wasamasa: lambdas are popular
2019-12-21T23:31:44Z wasamasa: see the schemers.org logo
2019-12-21T23:31:59Z wasamasa: I still believe my preferred implementation has the best logo
2019-12-21T23:34:05Z mdhughes: Meh. Anyone can make a lambda in a couple parens.
2019-12-21T23:34:10Z erkin: I think λ is sorta overused in logos.
2019-12-21T23:34:31Z mdhughes: That's what Scheme needs to be popular: A cute animal mascot.
2019-12-21T23:34:35Z erkin: Yesss
2019-12-21T23:34:50Z mdhughes: Gerbil's got a great one.
2019-12-21T23:35:07Z mdhughes: Look at this guy: https://cons.io
2019-12-21T23:35:22Z erkin: Common Lispers use that one alien from Land of Lisp.
2019-12-21T23:35:31Z erkin: Or that two-stroke stylised LISP text logo.
2019-12-21T23:36:07Z mdhughes: Oh, yeah. Did he draw Schemers in the book?
2019-12-21T23:36:13Z erkin: I don't think so.
2019-12-21T23:36:35Z erkin: Both Racket and Clojure just use stylised lambdas as their logos.
2019-12-21T23:37:40Z gwatt: also haskell
2019-12-21T23:39:12Z erkin: I think it'd be great having new, fresh, easy to draw logo, as well as a cute mascot with a memorable name.
2019-12-21T23:40:59Z wasamasa: meanwhile, guile's website redesign seems to have no effect
2019-12-21T23:42:13Z erkin: I think Haskell's logo is pretty memorable. It's easy to draw and it fuses >>= and λ, two core concepts, together.
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2019-12-21T23:53:07Z mdhughes: Land of Lisp does draw us as a couple joyriding UFOs with time travel, pg. 453. Insufficiently cute.
2019-12-21T23:53:47Z Zipheir: What's a good symbol for continuations?  Write `call/cc' in parens and lambdas?
2019-12-21T23:53:57Z erkin: That sounds like a cop-out. :-P
2019-12-21T23:54:12Z Zipheir: It sounds really dumb.
2019-12-21T23:54:30Z erkin: But yeah, I think we should focus on things that make Scheme unique. It's not the only language with first-class functions, after all. :-P
2019-12-21T23:54:39Z mdhughes: It would have to be a picture of a time machine.
2019-12-21T23:54:40Z wasamasa: the kanji for "to be continued" in japanese
2019-12-21T23:54:57Z wasamasa: I'm at the point where I recognize them instantly
2019-12-21T23:54:58Z erkin: （続）
2019-12-21T23:55:01Z wasamasa: nope
2019-12-21T23:55:14Z erkin: "to be continued" is written 続く or つづく
2019-12-21T23:55:22Z erkin: And the former is the only kanji in there. :X
2019-12-21T23:55:24Z wasamasa: ok, not kanji
2019-12-21T23:55:27Z erkin: haha
2019-12-21T23:55:42Z wasamasa: つづく looks like a disfigured fish
2019-12-21T23:55:57Z erkin: I can check /r/scheme_ja to see what they call continuations.
2019-12-21T23:56:11Z erkin: It had better not be kontinyueeshon
2019-12-21T23:57:40Z erkin: 継続
2019-12-21T23:58:10Z erkin: Somehow still underwhelming.
2019-12-21T23:58:41Z erkin: I like the logo lisp.org briefly used: The earth between two parentheses. Although perhaps it's a reference to Common Lisp's image blobs being called "world."
2019-12-21T23:58:57Z mdhughes: Or how much memory a running LISP takes.
2019-12-21T23:59:01Z erkin: haha
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2019-12-22T00:04:31Z erkin: How about this: (꩜)
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2019-12-22T00:06:36Z wasamasa: does not render
2019-12-22T00:06:52Z erkin: It's a spiral
2019-12-22T00:07:15Z wasamasa: debian?
2019-12-22T00:08:16Z erkin: I was thinking of a spiral much denser than that. Maybe closed too.
2019-12-22T00:10:09Z mdhughes: TSPL uses some kind of rendered 3D shell/spiral shape.
2019-12-22T00:10:26Z erkin: Let me just spend 3 hours trying to draw this in racket/draw and give up.
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2019-12-22T00:13:57Z mdhughes: Well, until something better comes along I just grabbed SICP's center for my home page icons, but that's not going to stay up.
2019-12-22T00:17:43Z pjb: mdhughes: you can run uucp nodes, and news servers are still running with nntp.
2019-12-22T00:18:40Z pjb: uux and uucp are still distributed with all macOS systems by Apple!
2019-12-22T00:19:31Z pjb: mdhughes: you just need to find friends using uucp, for example, sdf; https://sdf.org/?tutorials/uucp
2019-12-22T00:21:08Z pjb: mdhughes: to post to nntp, you can subscribe to http://news.individual.net or https://www.eternal-september.org
2019-12-22T00:22:06Z erkin: Okay, I give up on racket/draw.
2019-12-22T00:22:16Z erkin: Let me boot up Pinta to draw this by hand.
2019-12-22T00:24:54Z erkin: Turns out Pinta is really stupid and tries to load literally every single font installed on my computer when I ask it to insert text. My fonts folder weighs more than two gigabytes.
2019-12-22T00:25:18Z wasamasa: fonts are hard, let's go shopping
2019-12-22T00:25:27Z erkin: hahah
2019-12-22T00:25:49Z erkin: What's worse is that it's allocating memory at a rate of 2 MiB every second.
2019-12-22T00:25:56Z wasamasa: honestly though, I kind of get why knuth just generated lots of bitmaps
2019-12-22T00:26:31Z wasamasa: do the conversion work once, then keep the processing trivial
2019-12-22T00:27:28Z erkin: I'm going to get something to eat and see if Pinta is still frozen.
2019-12-22T00:27:33Z wasamasa: rasterizing the curves at runtime is where the real madness lies
2019-12-22T00:27:52Z wasamasa: someone thought it to be a good idea to not only do it in an unsafe language, but inside the kernel, too
2019-12-22T00:28:02Z erkin: Windows?
2019-12-22T00:28:06Z wasamasa: yes
2019-12-22T00:28:26Z wasamasa: combine that with the worst document format ever and you get entertaining security bugs
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2019-12-22T00:29:23Z erkin: Okay it loaded.
2019-12-22T00:29:32Z erkin: Interestingly, it didn't load every single font, apparently.
2019-12-22T00:29:43Z erkin: Memory consumption went from 80 to 300 MiB.
2019-12-22T00:30:01Z Riastradh: Metafont in the kernel!
2019-12-22T00:30:07Z erkin: Never mind, clicking the font selection dropdown froze it again.
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2019-12-22T00:32:44Z erkin: I'm beginning to think this isn't actually a very good piece of software.
2019-12-22T00:33:39Z erkin: It froze Xorg and I had to kill it from the tty.
2019-12-22T00:37:05Z erkin: I'll just reinstall Gimp.
2019-12-22T00:38:17Z erkin: Ah, now I remember why I uninstall Gimp: It depends on Python 2.
2019-12-22T00:38:26Z erkin: Even Mercurial doesn't do that any more.
2019-12-22T00:40:41Z erkin: Okay, compiling MyPaint from the latest source that depends on Python 3 instead.
2019-12-22T00:41:15Z wasamasa: wait, it does
2019-12-22T00:41:19Z ng0: we just build gnu imp with --disable-python
2019-12-22T00:41:30Z ng0: problem "solved"
2019-12-22T00:41:42Z erkin: Which distro?
2019-12-22T00:42:22Z ng0: pkgsrc
2019-12-22T00:42:34Z wasamasa: sounds like bsd
2019-12-22T00:42:39Z ng0 contemplates complaining about the overuse of distro
2019-12-22T00:42:54Z wasamasa: anyway, gimp doesn't seem to depend on python2 here
2019-12-22T00:43:03Z ng0: erkin: cross-operating system packaging
2019-12-22T00:43:09Z erkin: I think it's because it depends on MyPaint, which depends on Python 2.
2019-12-22T00:43:19Z erkin: (on Arch)
2019-12-22T00:43:27Z ng0: ah
2019-12-22T00:43:39Z wasamasa: why would you use something else than pacman on arch?
2019-12-22T00:43:48Z erkin: I'm not, it's still pacman.
2019-12-22T00:44:22Z erkin: urgh it refuses to use the git version and wants the old version of libmypaint
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2019-12-22T00:49:40Z erkin: Inkscape also depends on Python 2.
2019-12-22T00:49:47Z erkin: Even TuxPaint depends on Python 2 what the hell
2019-12-22T00:50:30Z Zipheir: It's like Perl 5!
2019-12-22T00:50:51Z wasamasa: it will not die
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2019-12-22T00:51:22Z wasamasa: > Required By : asciidoc cwiid dblatex flac2all gconf gmock jefferson-git lash lilypond-git mcomix-git mercurial [...]
2019-12-22T00:51:52Z erkin: I'm using the GTK 3 Python 3 branch of mcomix.
2019-12-22T00:52:15Z wasamasa: woah, for a moment I thought I'd need to like, write my own comics viewer in scheme
2019-12-22T00:52:15Z erkin: Ah, I was mistaken about Mercurial. They're still stuck with Python 2.
2019-12-22T00:52:52Z erkin: mcomix is literally the only good manga reader I could find.
2019-12-22T00:54:17Z erkin begrudgingly install Gimp
2019-12-22T00:56:44Z ng0: erkin: yeah., they figured python3 rewrite is too much, so new code is moved to rust because limiting the choices where your application can run is the new thing
2019-12-22T00:57:02Z Zipheir: Hah.
2019-12-22T00:57:27Z erkin: Isn't that Pijul's shtick?
2019-12-22T00:57:29Z wasamasa: ng0: that's a joke, right
2019-12-22T00:57:50Z ng0: i have nothing against writing rust. it's just frustration with system integration
2019-12-22T00:58:11Z ng0: no, mercurial has a page o ntheir wiki about rust
2019-12-22T00:58:24Z ng0: concluded last year i think that they'll move to rust
2019-12-22T00:58:33Z wasamasa: wow
2019-12-22T00:59:05Z erkin: okay I'm too tired to put work into this
2019-12-22T00:59:17Z erkin: So enjoy this https://0x0.st/z0Da.png
2019-12-22T00:59:49Z wasamasa: ufos
2019-12-22T01:00:01Z erkin: So Land of Lisp was right?
2019-12-22T01:00:18Z erkin: Before anyone asks, yes, that's Comic Sans.
2019-12-22T01:00:33Z wasamasa: I won't sleep this night
2019-12-22T01:01:18Z ng0: D1581 rust: implementation of `hg`
2019-12-22T01:01:31Z ng0: on their phabricator bt
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2019-12-22T01:04:59Z erkin: I like spirals.
2019-12-22T01:05:07Z erkin: I think they could be used to signify recursion.
2019-12-22T01:05:14Z erkin: I can't think of any language that uses recursion as much as Scheme.
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2019-12-22T01:07:12Z Riastradh: Haskell? ML? Erlang?
2019-12-22T01:08:07Z erkin: Hmm
2019-12-22T01:08:56Z erkin: You're right. Somehow, I forgot that they're highly recursive as well. Maybe because of the pattern matching thing.
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2019-12-22T01:16:19Z erkin: Oh dear, it's late. Good night everyone.
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2019-12-22T05:53:40Z mdhughes: erkin: I know Krita runs on Linux and isn't complete garbage. But I'm a Mac dude, so we have Acorn, Pixelmator, GraphicConverter, Photoshop, etc.
2019-12-22T05:54:08Z mdhughes: The spinny thing makes me dizzy!
2019-12-22T06:06:51Z mdhughes: Hm. I haven't written a paint program since college Graphics class, cross-plat C with ASM graphics on Atari ST, OS/2, & MS-DOS.
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2019-12-22T10:40:46Z wasamasa: I'm occasionally playing with the idea of creating limited graphics programs
2019-12-22T10:41:03Z wasamasa: like one for getting a screenshot into shape and another one for creating perfectly looping and small gifs
2019-12-22T10:41:15Z wasamasa: and of course something for image macros without watermarks
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2019-12-22T11:09:16Z mdhughes: That's the kind of thing I used MIT Scheme for for ages, since it has a minimally competent graphics library. Python's tkinter or turtle modules are good for it, too.
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2019-12-22T11:15:42Z erkin: mdhughes: Krita pulls a lot of KDE libraries though.
2019-12-22T11:15:56Z erkin: pulls in*
2019-12-22T11:16:35Z erkin: I was super disappointed with Python's TkInter after being spoilt with racket/gui.
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2019-12-22T11:17:45Z wasamasa: with these things I'd need some way to interact with the thing, like a mouse cursor in a brush shape or copious key bindings
2019-12-22T11:17:50Z wasamasa: I tried sdl2 so far, it's OK
2019-12-22T11:22:42Z zhuzhu__: I don't know.
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2019-12-22T12:03:34Z erkin: I'm actually going to use this logo I made.
2019-12-22T12:03:40Z erkin: I've grown fond of it.
2019-12-22T12:03:46Z erkin: And yes, I'm keeping the Comic Sans parens.
2019-12-22T12:03:50Z wasamasa: dog fooding at its best
2019-12-22T12:04:03Z erkin: https://0x0.st/z0nZ.png
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2019-12-22T16:33:04Z jcowan: Nothing wrong with Comic Sans as long as you don't use it for running text.
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2019-12-22T16:36:36Z jcowan: Or, God help us all, on war memorials, as has been done at least twice.
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2019-12-22T17:41:09Z zig``: comic sans smile is not comic sans :)
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2019-12-22T19:35:15Z erkin: I might tweak the logo a bit to emphasise continuations, but I'm not sure how.
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2019-12-22T19:53:08Z notzmv: jcowan: well, it's fitting innit. wars are sick jokes oi .u'iru'e :⁽
2019-12-22T19:54:33Z jcowan: Aak!  Whenever I or anyone else says "Comic Sans", IRCcloud displays it in, you guessed it.
2019-12-22T19:54:38Z jcowan: Times New Roman
2019-12-22T19:54:48Z jcowan: nope, still sans serif
2019-12-22T19:54:52Z erkin: I did not, in fact, guess it.
2019-12-22T19:55:25Z erkin: Unless that "Times New Roman" was a separate statement.
2019-12-22T19:55:29Z jcowan: Sorry, that was confusing.  "Comic Sans" is displayed in Comic Sans.  I was testing to see if "Times New Roman" got the same treatment, but it doesn't.
2019-12-22T19:55:37Z erkin: Oh
2019-12-22T19:55:40Z jcowan: Stop.
2019-12-22T19:55:46Z erkin: Must be an Easter egg then. :-D
2019-12-22T19:55:46Z jcowan: (testing more font names)
2019-12-22T19:55:51Z jcowan: Surely.
2019-12-22T19:56:27Z jcowan: SIL Doulos IPA.
2019-12-22T19:56:57Z erkin: An easier way would be digging into the source.
2019-12-22T19:57:05Z erkin: https://github.com/irccloud/android/blob/f62140b89645fd32f08e13bdd5246a81d0c87da2/src/com/irccloud/android/ColorFormatter.java#L2606
2019-12-22T19:57:06Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/vjgmoNAKQX
2019-12-22T19:59:41Z jcowan: I had no idea it was open source.  (I'm using the browser client.)
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2019-12-22T20:01:14Z erkin: Truth be told, I didn't know either. I just looked it up.
2019-12-22T20:01:59Z jcowan: Thanks!
2019-12-22T20:02:09Z erkin salute
2019-12-22T20:02:11Z jcowan: They have some interesting repos there in Go and Erlang
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2019-12-22T20:11:54Z daviid: but is comic sans a free ?
2019-12-22T20:13:06Z erkin: I've got Comic Neue and Comic Relief too, but I still ended up using Comic Sans MS.
2019-12-22T20:13:27Z erkin: The former two are open.
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2019-12-22T20:20:33Z zig``: I have some math trouble, if it takes 40 minutes to import 6GB, How many times it will take to import 1700GB? please :)
2019-12-22T20:21:04Z zig``: I am computing around 4.25 hours.
2019-12-22T20:21:05Z erkin: 11333
2019-12-22T20:21:25Z erkin: 189 hours
2019-12-22T20:22:22Z zig``: I have this: ((6 / 40) * 1700) / 60 = 4.25
2019-12-22T20:22:54Z zig``: erkin: how do you obtain that?
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2019-12-22T20:23:06Z erkin: 40 minutes per 6 GB, so 40/6 = 6,66 minutes per gigabyte.
2019-12-22T20:23:20Z erkin: 6,66 * 1700 = 11333 minutes
2019-12-22T20:23:31Z erkin: Divided by 60, you get 189
2019-12-22T20:26:26Z daviid: (/ (* (/ 1700 6) 40) 60) -| 1700/9
2019-12-22T20:27:03Z daviid: if it scales like that, but downloading ... and all of a sudden it slows down ... :)
2019-12-22T20:27:24Z erkin: Better compress it.
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2019-12-22T20:30:20Z zig``: erkin: oh! that is 6 / 40 not the inverse!
2019-12-22T20:30:22Z zig``: tx
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2019-12-22T20:30:53Z erkin: 40/6
2019-12-22T20:31:07Z erkin: 40 minutes separated into 6 gigabytes to find the minutes it takes for a single gigabyte.
2019-12-22T20:31:16Z erkin: Which you can scale to the desired amount of data.
2019-12-22T20:33:05Z zig``: thanks a lot!
2019-12-22T20:33:11Z erkin salute
2019-12-22T20:33:12Z erkin: np
2019-12-22T20:36:31Z Fare: hi
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2019-12-23T15:33:18Z nerdypepper: im trying the following: (define (f g) (g 2))
2019-12-23T15:33:42Z nerdypepper: where calling something like (f square) would call square on 2
2019-12-23T15:34:10Z nerdypepper: when i type in (f f), i get a 'Wrong type to apply: 2' error
2019-12-23T15:35:09Z nerdypepper: can someone tell me what's going on here?
2019-12-23T15:36:39Z nerdypepper: ahhh i see it now, (f f) calls (f 2)
2019-12-23T15:36:48Z nerdypepper: my that was easy
2019-12-23T15:38:03Z jcowan: An interesting challenge is to figure out what you could replace 2 with so that f would never blow up.  It needs to be a procedure, and a procedure that is defined on all values of its argument.
2019-12-23T15:39:43Z nerdypepper: jcowan: right
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2019-12-23T20:44:10Z zig``: hello #scheme
2019-12-23T20:44:19Z zig``: seems like something odd happened
2019-12-23T20:44:29Z zig``: anyway.. sorry for the noice.
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2019-12-23T23:09:07Z gendarme: how would you represent polynomials?
2019-12-23T23:09:33Z erkin: lists
2019-12-23T23:10:36Z erkin: I'd personally represent it like this: '(1 2 3 4) → 4x³ + 3x² + 2x + 1.
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2019-12-23T23:13:45Z gendarme: fair enough, since scheme is old, how is it that they where able to implement dynamic strucutres so easily?
2019-12-23T23:14:03Z erkin: How do you mean?
2019-12-23T23:15:18Z gendarme: I mean, I had considered doing this in C, and it just kept getting more complicated lol
2019-12-23T23:15:34Z erkin: Ah I see what you mean.
2019-12-23T23:15:46Z gendarme: lists are the default type of scheme, and since it's been around for a while, I just wondered how come
2019-12-23T23:15:49Z erkin: C was explicitly created under memory constraints of PDP machines.
2019-12-23T23:15:49Z gendarme: yeah
2019-12-23T23:16:02Z erkin: Lisp goes way back, with different design goals.
2019-12-23T23:16:07Z erkin: Namely, symbolic analysis.
2019-12-23T23:16:28Z gendarme: ah ok cool
2019-12-23T23:16:33Z erkin: You can actually accomplish a whole lot with just very little: https://www.t3x.org/lisp64k/index.html
2019-12-23T23:16:39Z gendarme: this should be a nice way to get into scheme
2019-12-23T23:16:42Z erkin: :-)
2019-12-23T23:17:15Z gendarme: so say later on I become a scheme hacker, how would you make it efficient?
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2019-12-23T23:17:49Z erkin: There are optimisation tricks you can do within your code, like avoiding generic functions.
2019-12-23T23:17:55Z erkin: eg using fx+ instead of + for fixnums
2019-12-23T23:18:18Z gendarme: fair enough
2019-12-23T23:18:25Z gendarme: optimize late makes sense
2019-12-23T23:18:27Z gendarme: thanks
2019-12-23T23:18:30Z erkin: But never optimise early on. Just try to write clean and simple algorithms in the first place, then try to find the bottlenecks in your code, and address those specifically.
2019-12-23T23:18:59Z erkin: Most performance tricks boil down to using the right data structures for the right tasks.
2019-12-23T23:20:37Z aeth: eh, that's kind of contradictory because choosing the right data structures early on can be a good thing, and it's technically an optimization
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2019-12-23T23:20:50Z aeth: But micro-optimizations are basically never worth it until you need them
2019-12-23T23:20:52Z erkin: Mm, I'd consider it a part of writing clean and simple code.
2019-12-23T23:21:08Z erkin: And yeah, microoptimisations rarely add up enough to make it worthwhile.
2019-12-23T23:21:11Z aeth: Unless the API is well-written, the 'right data structure' probably is going to be a bit messier than the naive one
2019-12-23T23:21:53Z erkin: I mean much more basic things.
2019-12-23T23:22:02Z erkin: At the very least, using vectors instead of lists for random access.
2019-12-23T23:22:43Z aeth: A lot of people (not really a Scheme thing, where lists for everything is too common) just use a hash table for everything. There's even a programming language based around this, called Lua, and it's decently popular, even in its non-JIT form where it really is just using hash tables for everything.
2019-12-23T23:22:53Z erkin: Oh funny you should mention that.
2019-12-23T23:23:01Z erkin: I met a Lua coder who says he's been programming for eight years.
2019-12-23T23:23:06Z erkin: He had never heard of linked lists in his life.
2019-12-23T23:23:06Z aeth: I guess a hash table for everything tends to scale a bit more than lists for everything, if you need random access. Still weird.
2019-12-23T23:23:24Z erkin: Turns out he only uses hashtables for literally everything.
2019-12-23T23:24:12Z aeth: Lua programmers usually are scripters (as in scripting some larger C++ application), and while 'scripting language' is fairly arbitrary with multiple different meanings, there definitely is a distinction between normal programming vs scripting someone's Lua API and just trying to get something to run
2019-12-23T23:24:45Z erkin: I mean like, if you're writing a text editor, you don't want to hold your text in the form of a vector of strings you continuously swap in and out each time but gap buffers or ropes or piece tables and such.
2019-12-23T23:24:54Z aeth: There are Emacs Lispers who've been writing Emacs Lisp for many years who probably know less about Emacs Lisp than we do as Schemers just because Emacs scripting is probably more about results than first principles
2019-12-23T23:25:17Z erkin: I guess it all boils down to "If you're doing something specific, chances are that there's a tool that suits your needs."
2019-12-23T23:26:09Z gendarme: erkin: this website is pretty rad
2019-12-23T23:26:38Z erkin: :-)
2019-12-23T23:28:34Z aeth: erkin: And to be fair, if you're a Lua programmer and you need a linked list, then it's the responsibility of the C++ programmer writing your Lua API to expose the userdata abstraction to you, without having to tell you about linked lists.
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2019-12-23T23:29:05Z erkin: Unrelatedly, today I learnt that the iOS sandbox (codenamed Seatbelt) uses Scheme to define rules.
2019-12-23T23:29:06Z aeth: So Lua has primitives like numbers (I'm guessing doubles for everything like JS, but I could be wrong... seems like something Lua would do, though), tables, and userdata
2019-12-23T23:29:34Z aeth: erkin: which Scheme?
2019-12-23T23:29:41Z erkin: Probably an in-house implementation.
2019-12-23T23:29:57Z aeth: I want to see an official ObjectiveScheme
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2019-12-23T23:31:50Z erkin: Yeah, it's an internal-use only limited subset.
2019-12-23T23:32:28Z erkin: Sandbox Profile Language (SBPL)
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2019-12-23T23:33:00Z erkin: It's undocumented, so there's only reverse engineer documentation of it.
2019-12-23T23:33:08Z aeth: haha
2019-12-23T23:33:12Z aeth: that sounds terrible
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2019-12-23T23:34:10Z erkin: It really does.
2019-12-23T23:35:27Z erkin: Oh it's built upon TinyScheme.
2019-12-23T23:35:42Z erkin: https://dl.packetstormsecurity.net/papers/general/apple-sandbox.pdf
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2019-12-23T23:41:17Z erkin: Does that mean Apple deployed more instances of Scheme than anyone else on earth?
2019-12-23T23:41:26Z erkin: Even more than this guy: https://web.archive.org/web/20090115204042/http://philosecurity.org/2009/01/12/interview-with-an-adware-author
2019-12-23T23:41:26Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/dEiZcIyCyI
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2019-12-23T23:58:21Z JalapenoX: hello
2019-12-23T23:59:08Z JalapenoX: https://paste.debian.net/1122489/
2019-12-23T23:59:18Z JalapenoX: I'm having issues understanding this code
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2019-12-23T23:59:29Z JalapenoX: Is this a lambda within a lambda?
2019-12-24T00:00:42Z JalapenoX: I don't understand how the argument "letter" is transferred into the second lambda function.
2019-12-24T00:00:51Z erkin: Yup
2019-12-24T00:01:10Z JalapenoX: Is that a yes to my question erkin?
2019-12-24T00:01:15Z erkin: Yup
2019-12-24T00:01:29Z erkin: When you call it with, say (keeper foobar), it returns (λ (sent) (keep (λ (wd) (member? foobar wd)) sent))
2019-12-24T00:02:41Z erkin: And when you call that with the value quux, it evaluates (keep (λ (wd) (member? foobar wd)) quux)
2019-12-24T00:03:30Z JalapenoX: okay I think I understand better, whew this is confusing.
2019-12-24T00:03:43Z erkin: Each time a lambda is called, it assigns each argument to its respective place and evaluates the body.
2019-12-24T00:04:02Z erkin: Yeah, it can take a while to grok.
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2019-12-24T00:04:19Z JalapenoX: So just as a theoretical example if it was
2019-12-24T00:05:30Z JalapenoX: if the "define" statement were instead to be (define keeper sent)
2019-12-24T00:05:44Z JalapenoX: whatever value sent was set as would go into the outer lambda?
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2019-12-24T00:06:03Z erkin: Oh no, it would just assign the value of sent to keeper.
2019-12-24T00:06:23Z erkin: There's no lambda in that statement.
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2019-12-24T00:14:21Z JalapenoX: I'm still a bit confused as to how the "letter" finds it's way into the inner lambda.  Is it because it's argument name is the same as "letter" next to define?
2019-12-24T00:16:20Z erkin: JalapenoX: It doesn't matter how deeply nested it is.
2019-12-24T00:16:31Z erkin: Inner scopes are supersets of outer scopes.
2019-12-24T00:16:47Z erkin: Unless "letter" was redefined in the new scope, its value is still that of the outer scope.
2019-12-24T00:17:12Z erkin: Just like how, say, "keep" and "member?" preserve their original definitions because you never redefined them in the inner scope.
2019-12-24T00:17:13Z JalapenoX: Oh i see
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2019-12-24T00:18:56Z erkin: Definitions only get reset once the control flow leaves the scope they were defined in.
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2019-12-24T00:22:46Z erkin: In short, when you call the procedure with (keeper fnord), each instance of "letter" (a formal argument) is replaced with "fnord" (an actual argument) within the body.
2019-12-24T00:23:27Z JalapenoX: ah
2019-12-24T00:23:42Z JalapenoX: Also I enjoyed the "fnord" reference :)
2019-12-24T00:23:47Z erkin: :-)
2019-12-24T00:23:58Z erkin: It's one of my favourite placeholders.
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2019-12-24T00:35:36Z JalapenoX: https://paste.debian.net/1122492/
2019-12-24T00:36:01Z JalapenoX: This is a quote from the Book "Simply Scheme" I'm reading.  I'm not quite following what they are saying.
2019-12-24T00:42:30Z erkin: It means when you're calling a procedure, it can be like (proc args ...)
2019-12-24T00:42:34Z erkin: Where proc is the name of the procedure.
2019-12-24T00:42:53Z erkin: But also something like ((λ (formals ...) body) args ...)
2019-12-24T00:43:05Z erkin: Technically, the procedure's name only refers to the lambda.
2019-12-24T00:43:27Z erkin: (define (foo bar) baz) is literally just syntactic sugar for (define foo (λ (bar) baz)), it's not too different from (define quux 5)
2019-12-24T00:44:22Z erkin: So when you define foo and quux as such, an instance of (foo quux) becomes ((λ (bar) baz) 5).
2019-12-24T00:44:35Z erkin: (although this isn't a very good example since bar isn't used in the lambda body, so that 5 is useless)
2019-12-24T00:45:19Z JalapenoX: oh thank you again erkin.
2019-12-24T00:45:34Z erkin: My pleasure.
2019-12-24T00:46:08Z JalapenoX: It's basically saying that using define in the traditional sense and using lambda are kind of the same thing...
2019-12-24T00:47:04Z erkin: Yes. Simply, "lambda" keyword creates a new procedure. And whatever is in the car of the expression is the executed procedure.
2019-12-24T00:47:12Z erkin: The cdr portion is the argument list.
2019-12-24T00:47:57Z erkin: Consider (+ 1 2 3). The car is +, which is the procedure getting executed. The cdr is '(1 2 3), which are the actual arguments being provided to the lambda defined as +.
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2019-12-24T00:57:49Z JalapenoX: oh i see
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2019-12-24T03:32:07Z jcowan: In addition, C was born on a low-end PDP-11, Scheme was born on the Decsystem KL-10, about 16 times as much memory.  OTOH, Lisp was born on a machine about half the size of the C machine
2019-12-24T03:34:10Z jcowan: aeth: Historically Lua had only floats, but as of 5.3 it has 64-bit ints as well.
2019-12-24T03:47:01Z Riastradh: Binary64 floating-point for everything is a reasonable way to start.
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2019-12-24T03:58:16Z jcowan: Indeed.
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2019-12-24T04:19:42Z mdhughes: Nobody's ever going to need an integer over 2^56.
2019-12-24T04:20:00Z mdhughes: Nobody's ever going to need more than 640K.
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2019-12-24T04:28:42Z Riastradh: Always better to start simple scripting language design with a complete ontology of every concept of `number' and `arithmetic' that has ever appeared in mathematics and computing, yes.  Maximal generality up front or bust!
2019-12-24T04:32:12Z mdhughes: Having used a lot of JavaScript, I think having int64 and double would've been a nice step up from "you're screwed forever".
2019-12-24T04:32:49Z mdhughes: Literally they've solved the bigint problem by putting numbers in strings.
2019-12-24T04:33:53Z Riastradh: `screwed forever', huh.
2019-12-24T04:35:09Z Riastradh: Putting digits in strings -- in radix 2^30 or 2^32, say -- is a pretty common way to `solve the bigint problem'!  I think you'll find that's how most machines `solve the bigint problem'...
2019-12-24T04:36:17Z mdhughes: It's wasting 60% of the bits.
2019-12-24T04:38:09Z mdhughes: Say I have message IDs which need to be 64-bit. Every single one is now variable but up to 20 bytes plus string overhead (16 bytes?) instead of 8.
2019-12-24T04:38:57Z Riastradh: ...could just use a pair of 32-bit integers, like you would be doing on a 32-bit machine anyway...
2019-12-24T04:39:23Z Riastradh: You sure like to pick fights on the internet, don't you?
2019-12-24T04:39:28Z mdhughes: Who has a 32-bit machine anymore?
2019-12-24T04:39:35Z mdhughes: You like defending the indefensible.
2019-12-24T04:40:23Z mdhughes: How is stating that using double as your only type is a bad idea "picking a fight"? Was your mother a double-precision floating point number?
2019-12-24T04:41:14Z Riastradh: I think you should listen to yourself, and ask whether the way you approach exchanges of ideas on the internet might sound a little more sarcastically belligerent than you realize.
2019-12-24T04:42:06Z mdhughes: You react to everything as if it's a personal attack, which it's not. It's a technical discussion. And I do mine with a little humor, which you… maybe you're funny on the inside.
2019-12-24T04:42:45Z Riastradh: `You like defending the indefensible.' makes it sound like I'm responsible for putting refugee children in cages to discourage them, not like I'm talking about the technical reasonableness of the floating-point standard.
2019-12-24T04:44:09Z mdhughes: "You sure like to pick fights" sounds like I'm The Kurgan. I have better hair.
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2019-12-24T04:49:16Z Riastradh: ...the...burial mound?  The candidate hypothetical Proto-Indo-European culture?
2019-12-24T04:52:00Z mdhughes: Riastradh: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+kurgan&s=d
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2019-12-24T05:02:09Z mdhughes: (I've taken this private, and it'd be nice if it was dropped)
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2019-12-24T05:57:53Z Riastradh scratches head
2019-12-24T05:58:26Z Riastradh: Apparently I am a `blithering idiot', whose lack of interest in continuing to argue with a condescending stranger on the internet indicates `curling up and whimpering', and what I say would `get [me] punched IRL'.
2019-12-24T05:59:47Z Riastradh: (But apparently that's not a threat, and `blithering idiot' is not a personal attack, I guess?  Kinda confused about what just transpired here.  Happy to share the transcript with anyone who would like to be forewarned about certain strangers on the internet.)
2019-12-24T06:00:34Z Riastradh: Anyway, enjoy the rest of your night/morning/afternoon/whatevertimeofday, folks!
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2019-12-24T07:34:33Z mdhughes: Hm. So naming suggestions (or if this exists already), I need a function that collects all arguments into a string, exactly like print. 'sprint' is silly but maybe consistent, 'cat' may be OK?
2019-12-24T07:35:10Z mdhughes: string-append obviously doesn't convert anything to strings, and anyway it's much too long.
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2019-12-24T07:36:57Z mdhughes: I could just use sprintf, but it doesn't need to be a a formatted string. And localization isn't on my priority list.
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2019-12-24T09:02:57Z mdhughes: Interesting performance: https://paste.debian.net/1122530/
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2019-12-24T09:59:59Z mdhughes: Also: https://paste.debian.net/1122531 makes for a nice API when I'm building a bunch of strings up. Still not sold on cat/cat! but meh.
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2019-12-24T10:02:58Z peanutbutterandc: Hello there, if anyone here is familiar with tinyscheme, could you please tell me how I can have multi-line comments in tiny-scheme? #; and #| |# are both throwing errors.
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2019-12-24T10:13:26Z edgar-rft: peanutbutterandc: AFAIK the are no multiline comments defined in R5RS
2019-12-24T10:15:06Z peanutbutterandc: edgar-rft, I see. Thank you for the information. I'll probably have to find some other way then.
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2019-12-24T10:33:51Z CORDIC: Welcome peanutbutterandc.  Wouldn't a macro suffice?
2019-12-24T10:35:03Z CORDIC: Or Block Quote, something like in Python but much better ofcourse :) ?
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2019-12-24T10:40:36Z peanutbutterandc: CORDIC, I am not that well versed in LISP, yet, sadly. But soon, hopefully. Uh! Block quote! Yeah! That could work! I'll try it right away!
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2019-12-24T10:41:56Z peanutbutterandc: CORDIC, Wow! It worked! Is there anything LISP can't do, even when it can't do it? Super cool. Thank you very much!
2019-12-24T10:42:37Z peanutbutterandc: Also, I would be grateful if any of you here had any pointers/book recommendations/etc. for a newbie lisper/schemer like myself.
2019-12-24T10:45:26Z CORDIC: PicoLisp has an escape hatch in "read" for "eval": "" ` [from "\n----\n"]"".
2019-12-24T10:48:40Z CORDIC: I meant ""~"".  Which "conc"atenates the result of "eval"uation of the following expression.
2019-12-24T10:51:48Z CORDIC: Yes, it's a Biohazard ;) .
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2019-12-24T11:04:36Z peanutbutterandc: Sorry I am not yet quite as knowledge-able to know what that means. But I am stuck with tinylisp at the moment (scripting in GIMP (gimp.org))
2019-12-24T11:07:06Z rgherdt: peanutbutterandc: Our channel title has some good resources
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2019-12-24T11:10:43Z peanutbutterandc: rgherdt, Oh I see. Thank you very much. I will note them down as well.
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2019-12-24T11:11:44Z rgherdt: you're welcome
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2019-12-24T11:20:21Z peanutbutterandc: Question: How can I convert any data type into string in lisp?
2019-12-24T11:20:40Z peanutbutterandc: I just need the string representing the raw data. Nothing fancy.
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2019-12-24T11:55:53Z zig: (call-with-output-string (lambda (port) (write scheme port)))
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2019-12-24T12:23:02Z CORDIC: (peanutbutterandc '(("FEXPR" "http://fexpr.blogspot.com/2011/04/fexpr.html") ("Lisp -- Almost a whole Truth!" "https://pages.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Papers/nano.ps.gz") ("Compiling Lambda Calculus" "http://www.t3x.org/clc/index.html") ("Hacker's Delight" "http://www.hackersdelight.org/")))
2019-12-24T12:31:20Z peanutbutterandc: CORDIC, Thank you very much
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2019-12-24T12:45:07Z erkin: <peanutbutterandc> CORDIC, Wow! It worked! Is there anything LISP can't do, even when it can't do it? Super cool. Thank you very much!
2019-12-24T12:45:12Z erkin: Be popular
2019-12-24T12:47:39Z CORDIC: IMHO You made a mistake in counting.
2019-12-24T12:47:43Z peanutbutterandc: erkin, lol It's slowly getting there, I think/hope.
2019-12-24T12:48:58Z peanutbutterandc: Also, does anyone here use GIMP? I am writing a gimp script (in tinyscheme) but something's off and I'm out of ideas and none in #gimp is currently helping me out
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2019-12-24T12:52:54Z CORDIC: X Y Problem?
2019-12-24T12:53:06Z CORDIC: What is the real goal?
2019-12-24T12:53:21Z pjb: peanutbutterandc: I wrote a gimp script a long time ago, in an old version of gimp.  https://www.informatimago.com/develop/pic-merge-diff3/index.html  That's all I know about gimp,
2019-12-24T12:53:22Z pjb: .
2019-12-24T12:54:18Z peanutbutterandc: pjb - whoa! That looks like something super duper neat!
2019-12-24T12:54:24Z CORDIC: I guess the first problem is GIMP, and You should replace it with a Simple Vector Graphics lib.
2019-12-24T12:54:47Z pjb: peanutbutterandc: I'm worried the API may have changed since…
2019-12-24T12:55:04Z peanutbutterandc: pjb, You should probably give it a shot, still.
2019-12-24T12:55:31Z peanutbutterandc: CORDIC, I am not THAT good with computers, sadly. But GIMP is pretty neat too
2019-12-24T12:56:12Z peanutbutterandc: Well, if anyone's interested in helping me debug, this is the code: https://termbin.com/0suv
2019-12-24T12:56:34Z peanutbutterandc: and this is the error: https://termbin.com/tx0u
2019-12-24T12:56:52Z peanutbutterandc: What is happening is that the 3rd parameter is getting the value of the 2nd parameter for some strange reason
2019-12-24T12:57:25Z peanutbutterandc: (right beneath the quoted (let* block
2019-12-24T13:00:31Z peanutbutterandc: Also, if anyone hasn't yet heard of GNU GUIX I recommend that all of you check it out. Basically, you get to declare entire operating system with S-expressions. Pretty awesome: http://guix.gnu.org/
2019-12-24T13:02:34Z peanutbutterandc: http://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/html_node/Using-the-Configuration-System.html#Instantiating-the-System Although I'm not that skilled yet. So far I've only been doing basic package managements and a bit of package definitions. But this is why I'm falling in love with all things lisp/scheme these days.
2019-12-24T13:03:42Z erkin: Yeah, it seems pretty nice. Some people seem to be doing devops stuff with it.
2019-12-24T13:07:09Z peanutbutterandc: erkin, Yeah. I hope to have a job someday, with my skills with it. lol But I've just been having fun with it so far. Now I don't have to be scared about installing programs. Neither do I have to worry about messing up my system by installing libraries that I need to compile something that isn't available ready-made out there. It handles the builds inside chroots. And there's per-user installation, and dependencies don't conflict. Super fun!
2019-12-24T13:08:39Z peanutbutterandc: Most importantly, even a n00b like me can have their own repository/PPA-like thingies: channels. All written in guile/scheme/lisp-code.
2019-12-24T13:08:46Z peanutbutterandc: https://github.com/peanutbutterandcrackers/guix-packages
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2019-12-24T15:24:31Z peanutbutterandc: Please excuse me for asking what is most likely a stupid question. How do I get the current time in scheme? Also, I need to generate random names in order. What would be the best method?
2019-12-24T15:24:59Z erkin: It's not a stupid question since that depends on the implementation.
2019-12-24T15:25:19Z erkin: Which implementation are you using?
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2019-12-24T15:31:15Z CORDIC: erkin: TinyScheme in GIMP.
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2019-12-24T15:36:21Z peanutbutterandc: erkin, Tinyscheme, Yes. CORDIC Haha yes
2019-12-24T15:37:18Z erkin: Honestly I have no idea. TinyScheme is really spartan and I don't know much about it.
2019-12-24T15:38:02Z erkin: Getting system time is a platform-dependent task so not everyone does it the same way, especially if you're not on a POSIX-compatible platform.
2019-12-24T15:38:40Z peanutbutterandc: erkin, I'm on a GNU/Linux system (Debian)
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2019-12-24T15:39:29Z erkin: My point is that TinyScheme is rather poorly documented.
2019-12-24T15:40:00Z erkin: If it supports SRFI-19, you're in luck.
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2019-12-24T15:43:48Z peanutbutterandc: erkin, It seems that I am out of luck. Is there any other way I could generate sequential names across re-runs without using time?
2019-12-24T15:45:49Z erkin: A hacky solution would be keeping the order in a file.
2019-12-24T15:46:27Z erkin: But I guess hacky solutions keep you afloat with such minimal implementations.
2019-12-24T15:47:59Z peanutbutterandc: erkin, I see. I don't even know how to read/write a file with scheme. Time to look it up
2019-12-24T15:48:17Z erkin: That's simple at least.
2019-12-24T15:48:52Z erkin: (let ((my-file (open-output-file "foo.txt"))) (display "quux" my-file) (close-port my-file))
2019-12-24T15:53:38Z peanutbutterandc: erkin, I see. It works. And how would I read from a file?
2019-12-24T15:53:47Z peanutbutterandc: Thank you, by the way. :)
2019-12-24T15:59:50Z erkin: No problem.
2019-12-24T16:00:03Z erkin: It'd've been much easier for you if Gimp used Guile.
2019-12-24T16:01:16Z erkin: peanutbutterandc: Your best bet for documentation is R5RS.
2019-12-24T16:01:31Z erkin: Since TinyScheme is R5RS conformant.
2019-12-24T16:07:00Z erkin: The canonical way to do file I/O is using the procedures with-input-from-file/with-output-to-file and call-with-input-file/call-with-output-file.
2019-12-24T16:07:03Z erkin: Check them out.
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2019-12-24T18:37:26Z Zipheir: TinyScheme is almost R5-conformant.  It lacks syntax-rules, at the very least, so it may deviate in other areas too...
2019-12-24T18:37:43Z Zipheir: Oh, peanutbutterandc is gone.
2019-12-24T18:43:38Z Zipheir: "Missing: Reusable continuations.  Hygienic macros.  True numeric tower.  ... multiple values are just lists.." http://community.schemewiki.org/?TinyScheme
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2019-12-24T20:07:52Z jcowan: Multiple values are just lists in Chibi whose car is a specific pair.
2019-12-24T20:08:11Z jcowan: That's perfectly valid, since it's undefined what happens if you pass too many/few values to your continuation.
2019-12-24T20:12:16Z notzmv: huh. why does GIMP not use Guile, anyway?
2019-12-24T20:12:43Z wasamasa: doubtful it's worth the effort
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2019-12-24T20:12:49Z wasamasa: not like anyone's using script-fu
2019-12-24T20:14:38Z jcowan: notzmv: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/2002-02/msg00076.html
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2019-12-24T20:15:12Z jcowan: That's before Tiny was adopted.
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2019-12-24T20:18:55Z wasamasa: it's python and C these days
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2019-12-24T20:55:39Z jcowan: There's a plugin called Gimple to allow Gimp scripting in C, but it has been untouched for 21 years, so almost certainly it has rotted (or everything has rotted around it, depending on your point of view)
2019-12-24T20:55:46Z jcowan: Nothing to do with gcc's gimple.
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2019-12-24T20:58:42Z CORDIC: First time I hear about scripting in C.  I can not even imagine how could C be applied as a scripting language.
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2019-12-24T21:03:44Z erkin: When all you have is a jackhammer...
2019-12-24T21:04:54Z jcowan: There are C interpreters.
2019-12-24T21:05:59Z wasamasa: tcc is fast enough to be used like an interpreter for C sources
2019-12-24T21:06:15Z wasamasa: IIRC some game used it that way
2019-12-24T21:06:31Z jcowan: yes
2019-12-24T21:07:34Z jcowan: There is a Java analogue, janino, which compiles Java 1.4 to class objects.
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2019-12-24T21:53:37Z mdhughes: Back in the day we just used Beanshell, or the Rhino JS engine in Java.
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2019-12-24T23:51:34Z jcowan: Unfortunately Oracle has deprecated both Rhino and its replacement Nashorn
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2019-12-24T23:53:01Z jcowan: So all we can do is hope that GraalVM takes off.
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2019-12-25T05:05:36Z notzmv: rough
2019-12-25T05:05:54Z notzmv: ki'e doi jcowan
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2019-12-25T06:44:01Z mdhughes: Looks like Mozilla owns Rhino now: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Projects/Rhino/Download_Rhino
2019-12-25T06:44:27Z mdhughes: Not that JS in Java is a fantastic way to live, but it beat just doing Java.
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2019-12-25T07:58:52Z CORDIC: Why would anyone punish himself with Java?
2019-12-25T08:09:02Z mdhughes: It makes an enormous amounts of money. Giant mountains. Remember the goons in Breaking Bad rolling around on the money? That much.
2019-12-25T08:10:31Z mdhughes: Meanwhile, I can't get anyone to pay me to write Scheme. I have to write my own software and hope it makes enough to keep me from starving & homelessness.
2019-12-25T08:11:31Z mdhughes: "Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something."
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2019-12-25T08:38:33Z aeth: Java is a mature platform. So lots of things are easier, even if those things might be mostly secondary concerns for programmers (besides the main one of ideally having fewer bugs).
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2019-12-25T08:48:55Z edgar-rft: Let's re-implement Java in Scheme.
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2019-12-25T11:43:25Z zig: hello #scheme
2019-12-25T11:44:40Z DKordic: Greetings.
2019-12-25T11:47:47Z ArthurStrong: hello all
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2019-12-25T13:18:47Z jcowan: There is a Java in Racket, but mostly for teaching purposes
2019-12-25T13:18:48Z jcowan: https://docs.racket-lang.org/profj/index.html
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2019-12-25T14:00:31Z mdhughes: I really should take another run at using Clojure in production. I don't like their dialect at all, but it's a paren lang that enterprise will accept.
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2019-12-25T15:57:01Z zig: mdhughes: or we could start a scheme company?
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2019-12-25T16:31:31Z zig: John Cowan: A Scheme Journey from Red to Tangerine and Beyond https://vimeo.com/311106780
2019-12-25T16:34:07Z daviid: mdhughes: kawa instead of clojure, much better startup time, much much better integration with java class system, no 'ecoterriblesystem', just kawa -C and your code is ready ... maybe if you write something that you have to write in java, also using kawa, then show it is as fast, but order of mag easier to read and maintain ...
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2019-12-25T16:39:45Z mdhughes: Enterprise bosses are a superstitious and cowardly lot, they only hire for languages someone else has succeeded with; so these days that puts Clojure on the list, but Kawa would be weird and freaky (even if it's much more normal Scheme).
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2019-12-25T16:45:25Z mdhughes: zig: https://i.imgur.com/IBTEZn2.jpg
2019-12-25T16:46:25Z daviid: I know, but I would still try, and again, and again ... just show 'regurlarly' the result on some concrete 'something' ...
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2019-12-25T16:51:04Z daviid: using kawa ...
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2019-12-25T17:55:35Z wasamasa: kawa is pretty cool indeed
2019-12-25T17:55:58Z wasamasa: I'd pick it any time again for a personal project requiring java stuff
2019-12-25T17:58:23Z wasamasa: what I'm less sure about is JS projects
2019-12-25T17:58:30Z wasamasa: I don't want any of that node nonsense
2019-12-25T17:58:48Z wasamasa: writing vanilla JS is acceptable up to a certain point of complexity
2019-12-25T17:59:17Z wasamasa: clojurescript is overkill, shadow swaps the java for node parts
2019-12-25T17:59:21Z wasamasa: spock is not there yet
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2019-12-25T19:02:54Z jcowan: Is there an actual Lisp-flavored JS?
2019-12-25T19:10:27Z wasamasa: I can't even imagine what that looks like
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2019-12-25T19:22:07Z jcowan: S-expression syntax, macros, JS semantics.  I sketched out such a thing once, using Crockford's JS: The Good Parts as a guide to what to include.
2019-12-25T19:23:28Z wasamasa: hm, I dunno
2019-12-25T19:23:36Z wasamasa: the benefits of this seem similar to fennel
2019-12-25T19:23:50Z wasamasa: you'd have funny features like compile-time lists to do macros
2019-12-25T19:26:54Z jcowan: I remember reading a paper long ago about Scheme as a universal IL, because its control features are complete and there is no interdependency between the language and its data structures (except that multiple arguments show up as lists)
2019-12-25T19:28:11Z wasamasa: you'd have macros, uniform syntax and could use ifs as return values
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2019-12-25T19:35:53Z DKordic: https://github.com/anko/eslisp ; https://github.com/Gozala/wisp ; https://gitorious.org/moritz-stuff/js-lisps
2019-12-25T19:40:00Z wasamasa: I don't think it would buy me much since one of the JS pains wouldn't go away, weak typing and weird number semantics
2019-12-25T19:40:12Z wasamasa: macros could help with writing more bullet-proof code though
2019-12-25T19:41:00Z DKordic: https://github.com/manuel/wat-js : JSON Processing.
2019-12-25T19:41:24Z wasamasa: you'd never have to do that ugly check for false or undefined again
2019-12-25T19:42:55Z wasamasa: wisp is the closest to this
2019-12-25T19:43:07Z DKordic: Shen claims to automagically generate JavaScript...
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2019-12-25T20:09:19Z jcowan: Fennel looks a lot like Clojure(script)
2019-12-25T20:10:02Z jcowan: I was actually thinking about Lisp-Flavored Erlang as a model
2019-12-25T20:17:43Z jcowan: eslisp looks quite interesting
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2019-12-25T20:27:15Z erkin: LFE is too CL-ish for my liking.
2019-12-25T20:27:57Z erkin: Such a shame CSCM was abandoned.
2019-12-25T20:29:52Z erkin: I don't have much hopes from Clojerl either, judging by the state of ClojureCLR.
2019-12-25T20:31:44Z erkin: jcowan: eslisp claims to have hygienic macros but only seems to have an analogue of defmacro.
2019-12-25T20:31:51Z erkin: Unless I'm missing something here.
2019-12-25T20:33:04Z erkin: https://github.com/anko/eslisp/blob/master/doc/how-macros-work.markdown
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2019-12-25T20:38:32Z jcowan: I see that macros are compiled into JS like any other function, they are simply called at compile time.
2019-12-25T20:39:13Z jcowan: we hates square brackets in lisp, yes we does, precious
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2019-12-25T20:42:17Z erkin: Hy does macros like that too. You need to `require` macro files at compile time instead of `import`ing them as Python modules.
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2019-12-25T21:03:07Z jcowan nods
2019-12-25T21:20:40Z jcowan: As for JS implicit conversion, it doesn't seem unreasonable as long as you avoid ==.
2019-12-25T21:21:23Z jcowan: Boolean conversion has a lot of falsy values, and having + both add and concatenate is certainly a mistake.
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2019-12-25T21:22:56Z jcowan: I'm not sure what to say about string->number coercion around numeric ops; it probably makes sense in the JS domain, where all inputs are strings even when they are semantically numbers.
2019-12-25T21:34:33Z wasamasa: it's been useful to me once so far
2019-12-25T21:35:32Z wasamasa: when trying to exploit nosql injection and trying to compare numbers with strings
2019-12-25T21:35:47Z wasamasa: since mongodb blacklists all the useful functions at hand
2019-12-25T21:42:45Z jcowan: Perl, which also wants to do arithmetic on basically numeric-string data, has about the same set of coercions; in addition, an empty array is also falsy.
2019-12-25T21:43:56Z jcowan: Few, if any, languages have no implicit coercions at allses: even Scheme coerces from exact to inexact numbers.  Early versions of Fortran did not have even this, which was widely perceived as an annoyance and was changed (by IBM) by popular demand.
2019-12-25T21:49:41Z mdhughes: Swift doesn't coerce, and it's incredibly irritating. Doing graphics in it with ints & doubles is a nightmare casting every other operand.
2019-12-25T21:51:56Z jcowan: Go doesn't either
2019-12-25T21:52:06Z jcowan: not even between different sized ints, I think
2019-12-25T21:52:21Z jcowan: though at least literals have no inherent type
2019-12-25T21:55:55Z mdhughes: Swift distinguishes 3 and 3.0 but mostly casts 3 to the size of the type… but it can't really infer Objective-C int types, so you end up with casts everywhere again.
2019-12-25T21:56:52Z mdhughes: Trying too hard to be Haskell in a non-Haskell world.
2019-12-25T22:06:39Z aeth: Not like being implicit is better if it's like C++, where you can do 3 / 4 * your_double and oops, you just did integer division. So you can normally just have things auto-cast but you still have to .0 everything to defend against stuff like that. Also when you #define FOO or whatever
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2019-12-25T22:11:28Z mdhughes: tho that's probably a bug anyway, you meant (3/4)*d or d*3/4; and the latter will correctly coerce 3 into 3.0 and the whole before / is now double, so 4 is 4.0.
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2019-12-25T22:12:20Z aeth: mdhughes: if I ever make an infix language your code will be an error, because I'll require spaces, i.e. (3 / 4)
2019-12-25T22:12:23Z aeth: :-p
2019-12-25T22:12:27Z aeth: Python made the wrong whitespace significant
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2019-12-25T22:12:57Z aeth: As an advantage, that means it could support a rational type as a language, i.e. 3/4
2019-12-25T22:13:01Z aeth: Sort of like Scheme
2019-12-25T22:13:02Z mdhughes: In real code I do space around most operators, but I'm lazy in IRC
2019-12-25T22:14:07Z mdhughes: Also full of turkey and sleepy.
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2019-12-25T22:15:38Z mdhughes: I was reading some people doing Advent of Code in APL, and it makes everything I do look so wordy and spaced out like e.e. cummings
2019-12-25T22:17:22Z aeth: I say this so often that it's probably something everyone has heard, but I prefer conciseness at the token level to absolute character level conciseness. So e.g. foobar(42) over #$&42 assuming that #$& is three operations.
2019-12-25T22:17:33Z mdhughes: https://fosstodon.org/@codesections/103275783931424810
2019-12-25T22:18:59Z mdhughes: (hashtag (dollar (ampersand 42)))
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2019-12-26T03:42:11Z jcowan: K is even more intolerable than APL, because not only are symbols overloaded by arity, but by argument type (it's dynamic) and in unpredictable ways
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2019-12-26T03:44:11Z jcowan: 2!!7!4 for example means (rotate (iota (mod 7 4)) 2)
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2019-12-26T03:56:57Z mdhughes: I like nice logically consistent languages like Brainfuck.
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2019-12-26T04:45:54Z moon-child: jcowan: at least k doesn't have as much overloading in terms of symbols that stand for verbs and adverbs
2019-12-26T04:46:48Z moon-child: I think it's just \, actually
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2019-12-26T13:10:46Z zig: hello #scheme
2019-12-26T13:11:18Z zig: mdhughes: I would love to, but I am too buzy with other stuffs.
2019-12-26T13:11:48Z zig: at some point, I surely will, but not yet.
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2019-12-26T14:41:13Z erkin: I find J to be much easier to read than K
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2019-12-26T15:02:41Z edgar-rft: I agree, "Fucj off" is much easier to read :-)
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2019-12-26T16:03:20Z jcowan: edgar-rft: Pronounced of course "Fudge off"
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2019-12-26T19:41:35Z zig doing some history research about scheme.
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2019-12-26T19:50:00Z zig: TIL: R7RS code should be portable across scheme implementation.
2019-12-26T19:50:25Z zig: there is still ambiguity regarding whether code is library code or program code.
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2019-12-26T19:53:36Z zig: so far, nomunofu runs on chez and guile, but are different code base.
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2019-12-26T19:53:57Z zig: also, chez version is missing the http server :)
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2019-12-26T19:57:52Z zig: re different code base, but almost identical code, outside ffi code.
2019-12-26T19:58:16Z zig: that is, it is half the same.
2019-12-26T19:59:06Z zig: I guess the next step is to port the code to gambit.
2019-12-26T19:59:19Z zig: or better, use the same code for gambit, except the ffi.
2019-12-26T19:59:39Z zig: that will be neat.
2019-12-26T20:03:34Z rgherdt: nice
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2019-12-26T22:50:15Z GlenK: hiya.  there's a term I'm looking for.  When you make helper functions local to a function they're being used in.  what would be the term for that?
2019-12-26T22:53:30Z zaifir: The best term is probably https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encapsulation_(computer_programming) , but without the OOP baggage.
2019-12-26T22:55:11Z GlenK: yeah, ok.  I was thinking that didn't exactly fit.  sicp says "block structure", but that doesn't exactly seem like what I'm looking for either...
2019-12-26T22:55:32Z zaifir: "Information hiding"?
2019-12-26T22:55:34Z GlenK: maybe I should say "function localization"?
2019-12-26T22:57:45Z zaifir: Sounds like a compiler optimization.
2019-12-26T22:58:08Z GlenK: ha, yeah, you're right
2019-12-26T22:59:06Z GlenK: how about "improved function scope"
2019-12-26T22:59:43Z zaifir: Usually one reads something like "... so we decompose f into several helper functions".  I guess it's mundane enough to not have a pretentious abstract name. ;)
2019-12-26T23:00:57Z zaifir: "Procedure snowballing".
2019-12-26T23:02:34Z zaifir: "Function katamari" (reserved for cases where it globs up the entire program.)
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2019-12-26T23:33:06Z TCZ: "private method"
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2019-12-26T23:55:26Z Riastradh: zig: Heh.  `should be'
2019-12-26T23:55:46Z Riastradh: `should' is bearing a lot of load in that sentence, as they say these days.
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2019-12-27T00:54:52Z zig: so 'should' shall be 'must'?
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2019-12-27T01:30:32Z wonderC:  call/cc => (lambda (f cc) (f (lambda (x k) (cc x)) cc))
2019-12-27T01:30:45Z wonderC: I don't understand this call/cc
2019-12-27T01:30:52Z wonderC: anyone can help me?
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2019-12-27T02:15:23Z jcowan: In any case, local names bound to functions are no different from local names not bound to functions.
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2019-12-27T03:51:48Z wonderC: jcowan: I don't get it
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2019-12-27T04:15:09Z zaifir: wonderC: It was in response to an earlier conversation.  What do you mean by "call/cc => ..." in your example?
2019-12-27T04:15:35Z wonderC: callCC f cc = f (\x _ -> cc x) cc
2019-12-27T04:16:05Z wonderC: (define call/cc (lambda (f cc) (f (lambda (x k) (cc x)) cc)))
2019-12-27T04:16:33Z wonderC: zaifir: there're three versions of call/cc definition I see
2019-12-27T04:17:11Z zaifir: wonderC: There only seem to be two, to me, and they don't seem to be correct.
2019-12-27T04:17:28Z wonderC: Scheme: (define call/cc (lambda (f cc) (f (lambda (x k) (cc x)) cc)))
2019-12-27T04:17:35Z wonderC: Javascript:callcc = f => cc => f(x => k => cc(x), cc)
2019-12-27T04:17:42Z wonderC: Haskell:callCC f = \c -> f (\x -> \_ -> c x) c
2019-12-27T04:17:56Z wonderC: zaifir: they're the same
2019-12-27T04:18:48Z zaifir: wonderC: The Scheme definition won't work, though.
2019-12-27T04:19:53Z wonderC: zaifir: I got it from http://matt.might.net/articles/by-example-continuation-passing-style/
2019-12-27T04:19:53Z zaifir: wonderC: Using your def, (call/cc (lambda (k) (k 'foo)))  ; => arity error
2019-12-27T04:20:31Z wonderC: and from Haskell callCC f = ContT $ \ c -> runContT (f (\ x -> ContT $ \ _ -> c x)) c
2019-12-27T04:22:01Z zaifir: wonderC: OK, if `cc' is in fact the current continuation, that does sort of work (modulo the arity issue).  But you have to first CPS the program to get the current continuation there--it doesn't just "come", in the words of Felix Unger.
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2019-12-27T04:22:56Z wonderC: zaifir: what that f should be like?
2019-12-27T04:24:40Z zaifir: wonderC: f in your definition isn't the problem--it's just the procedure to call.  The problem is `cc'.
2019-12-27T04:25:09Z wonderC: zaifir: cc should be an unary function
2019-12-27T04:26:21Z zaifir: wonderC: Not necessarily, but usually.  In general, continuations can take any number of arguments.
2019-12-27T04:26:49Z wonderC: zaifir: there's a type for callCC :: ((a->m b)-> m a)-> m a
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2019-12-27T04:26:58Z zaifir: wonderC: That's not Scheme, though.
2019-12-27T04:27:12Z wonderC: zaifir: yeah, but they are the same definition
2019-12-27T04:27:33Z wonderC: zaifir: so we can know what f should like based on the type in others
2019-12-27T04:28:08Z wonderC: that f take a function and return a function
2019-12-27T04:28:42Z wonderC: the function that f take is a three-parameters function, and return a binary function
2019-12-27T04:30:42Z zaifir: wonderC: You can define it that way.  Just be aware that standard Scheme's call-with-current-continuation is different.  Among other things, Scheme isn't curried.
2019-12-27T04:31:03Z wonderC: zaifir: right, currying
2019-12-27T04:31:30Z wonderC: zaifir: what's the standard definition of scheme? that call/cc
2019-12-27T04:31:40Z wonderC: it's defined by macro?
2019-12-27T04:32:16Z zaifir: wonderC: It's primitive.  Because call/cc is the only way you can grab the current continuation.
2019-12-27T04:32:55Z wonderC: zaifir: oh
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2019-12-27T04:45:48Z zaifir: wonderC: If you write a function that takes an explicit continuation, e.g. (define (f x k) ...), you probably never need to call/cc, since the caller provides k.  So think of call/cc as "magically" giving you access to k.
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2019-12-27T04:47:19Z zaifir: (Well, no, don't think of it as magic. :))
2019-12-27T04:49:55Z zaifir: But it's magic enough that it needs to be primitive.
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2019-12-27T05:21:05Z wonderC: zaifir: how I can pass that k out of f
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2019-12-27T05:33:53Z zaifir: wonderC: Well, it's just a value...
2019-12-27T05:35:04Z zaifir: wonderC: In any language with serious support for first-class continuations you can pass continuations around and call them again and again.
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2019-12-28T01:47:30Z hugo: I wrote a blog post about macros and code walking. Please tell me what's good and bad about it. http://blog.hornquist.se/hugo/?filename=20191223Macro_Walking.md
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2019-12-28T02:03:20Z mange: I keep getting "We can’t connect to the server at blog.hornquist.se." so that seems bad. :)
2019-12-28T02:04:33Z hugo: mange: Any more errors?
2019-12-28T02:04:48Z ^: works here fwiw
2019-12-28T02:05:19Z hugo: ^: Good to hear. It's self hosted and a bit unstable from time to time
2019-12-28T02:05:31Z ^: oh i see
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2019-12-28T02:05:38Z pjb: Also "We can’t connect to the server at blog.hornquist.se." from France…
2019-12-28T02:05:38Z pjb:  
2019-12-28T02:05:41Z ^: a bit offtopic, but whos your hsot?
2019-12-28T02:06:47Z ^: https://dnschecker.org/#A/blog.hornquist.se oh, well that would do it
2019-12-28T02:06:50Z hugo: ^: self hosted. And my ISP is the swedish ComHem
2019-12-28T02:07:02Z ^: oh, like self hosted on your own network?
2019-12-28T02:07:19Z hugo: The server is self hosted on one network
2019-12-28T02:07:26Z hugo: And the DNS is self hosted from another
2019-12-28T02:07:37Z ^: yeah, it looks like dns propagation issues fwiw
2019-12-28T02:08:03Z hugo: I would guess they concider me "unworthy" of delegation
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2019-12-28T02:08:10Z hugo: Any ideas how to fix it?
2019-12-28T02:08:59Z ^: heh, not much. its been a while since i hosted my own public facing dns servers. i just use namecheap/cloudflare and then run a local resolver on my laptop for anything internal
2019-12-28T02:09:56Z hugo: I used my registrars dns before, but then I got a /56 block in the ipv6 space and wanted better control over it...
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2019-12-28T19:55:10Z lockywolf_: Has anyone seen the code to obtain something like done on the paste: http://paste.debian.net/1122972 ?
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2019-12-28T19:55:59Z lockywolf_: It is basically one of the serializations of a parallel code.
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2019-12-28T19:58:20Z lockywolf_: Ideally I would like something to generate all possible serializations of a bit of code, and possibly check that all of them give the same output given some x.
2019-12-28T19:59:30Z lockywolf_: Won't guarantee that my code is correct, but why not have an extra check.
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2019-12-29T09:53:01Z zig: interesting.
2019-12-29T09:54:39Z edgar-rft: indeed
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2019-12-29T15:24:35Z zig: cyclone $ sloccount runtime.c: ansic=6319
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2019-12-29T17:04:14Z zig:  any good or bad experience with cyclone scheme?
2019-12-29T17:06:59Z wasamasa: it's not ready for the spotlight
2019-12-29T17:09:41Z zaifir: Another Scheme-to-C compiler?
2019-12-29T17:10:07Z wasamasa: yup
2019-12-29T17:10:15Z wasamasa: the sources are easy to read
2019-12-29T17:10:21Z wasamasa: hacking on it is somewhat annoying
2019-12-29T17:10:31Z wasamasa: and I ran into loads of bugs while implementing MAL in it
2019-12-29T17:10:50Z wasamasa: use CHICKEN or gambit
2019-12-29T17:11:04Z wasamasa: they're not as educational to study though, mind you
2019-12-29T17:11:34Z zaifir: Yeah, it looks pretty raw.  The competition in the Scheme->C world is pretty stiff.
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2019-12-29T17:24:01Z zaifir: Right, it will be interesting to see a small implementation of Cheney On The MTA...
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2019-12-29T21:59:34Z GlenK: hi there.  I'm trying to use the load function in dr. racket.  I have the sicp language installed.  I made a file named common.scm.  and I put a (load "../common.scm") into my code.
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2019-12-29T22:00:19Z GlenK: but it's complaining about the functions I'm trying to use, telling me "unbound identifier".
2019-12-29T22:00:27Z GlenK: any help would be appreciated
2019-12-29T22:03:17Z GlenK: I tried an absolute path too:  (load "/home/glen/sync/workspace/sicp/problems/common.scm")
2019-12-29T22:03:21Z GlenK: still no dice
2019-12-29T22:20:40Z GlenK: well, I found this thing:  (#%require "../common.scm")
2019-12-29T22:20:55Z GlenK: which is racket specific I guess?  but that doesn't help either...
2019-12-29T22:22:31Z GlenK: [glen@falcon ~]$ file /home/glen/sync/workspace/sicp/problems/common.scm
2019-12-29T22:23:16Z GlenK:   /home/glen/sync/workspace/sicp/problems/common.scm: ASCII text
2019-12-29T22:23:33Z GlenK: just checking...
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2019-12-29T22:29:59Z GlenK: maybe I should see what this mzscheme language is all about.  maybe that would help
2019-12-29T22:30:07Z erkin: GlenK: Racket uses require instead of load, but SICP is based on R5RS.
2019-12-29T22:30:14Z erkin: So #%require is used instead.
2019-12-29T22:30:23Z erkin: (R5RS has no require)
2019-12-29T22:31:04Z erkin: And MzScheme is the obsolete PLT Scheme language.
2019-12-29T22:31:46Z GlenK: I'm trying to use #%require, but still get the same error.  is there a specific spot my files have to go?  relative paths aren't working out for me with that, and absolute paths give me an error
2019-12-29T22:32:16Z erkin: What exactly the error?
2019-12-29T22:32:26Z erkin: is the*
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2019-12-29T22:32:53Z GlenK: #%require: bad require spec in: "/home/glen/sync/workspace/sicp/problems/common.scm"
2019-12-29T22:33:42Z GlenK: maybe that means my common.scm file isn't proper?
2019-12-29T22:34:40Z erkin: Hmm, I'm not sure how #%require's raw syntax works. Hold on.
2019-12-29T22:35:16Z GlenK: this one finds my file:  (#%require "../common.scm")
2019-12-29T22:35:49Z GlenK: because if I put a non-existent file then it gives me a file not found error
2019-12-29T22:36:17Z erkin: Hmm
2019-12-29T22:36:18Z GlenK: but I still get "square: unbound identifier in: square" with that.
2019-12-29T22:36:53Z erkin: I'm not too familiar with the SICP language implementation but you need to declare your module exports with provide.
2019-12-29T22:36:58Z erkin: Or in this case, #%provide.
2019-12-29T22:38:15Z erkin: Hm, let me install the sicp lang package to give it a try.
2019-12-29T22:38:40Z GlenK: maybe I should just switch back to mit scheme
2019-12-29T22:39:07Z GlenK: I do like the dr. racket UI better though
2019-12-29T22:39:24Z GlenK: plus it comes stock with Fedora
2019-12-29T22:39:50Z erkin: Yeah, #%require doesn't like absolute paths.
2019-12-29T22:40:19Z erkin: It works fine with relative paths though.
2019-12-29T22:40:38Z GlenK: I just need to figure out the provide stuff then like you're talking?
2019-12-29T22:41:04Z erkin: Yeah, at the top of the file, under #lang sicp, you need to put (provide ...) and put the names you want to export.
2019-12-29T22:41:12Z erkin: In this case, square.
2019-12-29T22:41:29Z erkin: Err, (#%provide ...) in this case.
2019-12-29T22:42:23Z erkin: Yup, it works.
2019-12-29T22:42:45Z GlenK: yep, sweet, that did the trick.  thanks a bunch!!!
2019-12-29T22:42:50Z erkin: No problem!
2019-12-29T22:43:23Z erkin: And yeah, it really is sorta awkward. Racket's module compartmentalisation is a tad strict.
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2019-12-30T05:36:58Z mdhughes: I added another module example for Racket: http://community.schemewiki.org/?module-example-racket
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2019-12-30T05:43:44Z mdhughes: The variety of ways to wrap the program up is really quite awful. Actual Scheme code is like 95% portable. The module/import/compile systems are completely variant.
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2019-12-30T05:45:14Z mdhughes: The only spec I consider reasonably complete is R6RS, and even that doesn't specify the compiler so Chez's compiler call is insane.
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2019-12-30T07:05:23Z aeth: mdhughes: The degree of portability depends on what you're using Scheme for.
2019-12-30T07:05:45Z aeth: Something primarily scripting probably is very unportable because you're dealing with the application's APIs
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2019-12-30T07:55:27Z mdhughes: Sure, that's a library issue. FFI & such are totally non-portable; but I've ported my C libraries to FFI in 3 Schemes now.
2019-12-30T07:56:28Z mdhughes: But I mean your actual application code, the stuff that does anything interesting, is 95% portable.
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2019-12-30T10:41:15Z zig: I agree
2019-12-30T10:43:10Z zig: I agree that the interesting stuff can be written in portable scheme, it is possible in R6RS and made easier with R7RS batteries included.
2019-12-30T10:48:32Z zig: Last few days, I have been investigating making nomunofu portable across Scheme implementations and eventually benchmark them...
2019-12-30T10:49:05Z zig: So far, I know I can make it work with GNU Guile and Chez, which are the two schemes I have been practicing last few years.
2019-12-30T10:49:28Z zig: (those are not R7RS but more like R6RS + R7RS libraries)
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2019-12-30T10:52:24Z zig: I am not sure about the number 95%.  The current state of nomunofu, is that FFI is a lot of code...  I am again wondering whether auto C ffi can be a thing even on IronScheme and Kawa. Since those have a way to call out to C share lib.
2019-12-30T10:53:04Z zig: I think that is a task, portable R7RS C FFI, that is up for grab :)
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2019-12-30T10:55:10Z zig: By the way I really like the mail from jcowan about the current tasks in R7RS https://mailman.iro.umontreal.ca/pipermail/gambit-list/2019-December/009291.html
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2019-12-30T11:09:11Z rgherdt: since you are using guile and chez, did you try using https://github.com/ktakashi/r6rs-pffi ?
2019-12-30T11:09:35Z rgherdt: I've never tried it
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2019-12-30T11:19:48Z zig: yes. I looked at it.  I don't remember why I do not use it.  Anyway, it works only with some kind of ffi libraries.  I think, scheme needs something in the spirit of chicken bind / autoffi.
2019-12-30T11:20:26Z zig: or guile ffi helper, that reads C headers files and output low-level scheme ffi code.
2019-12-30T11:20:52Z zig: pffi does not support mit or chicken for instance.
2019-12-30T11:21:18Z rgherdt: yes, it's focused on r6rs
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2019-12-30T11:25:58Z zig: I remember, actually I was shy to say that the reason I did not pffi, is because it does output as performant as possible code for chez scheme. Also it is unhygenic at times.  That being said, it is a great project, I am happy it exists.
2019-12-30T11:27:29Z zig: It seems to me compiling the C header down to scheme shoud make it possible to have performant code in all schemes.
2019-12-30T11:39:02Z jcowan: Not the current tasks, but the future tasks that are inherently non-portable.  The current tasks are in the Orange Docket at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ColorDockets.md
2019-12-30T11:39:58Z jcowan: But of course anyone may work on any task in the dockets, or for that matter not in them and then propose them (or I may take them up).
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2019-12-31T16:49:00Z zig: ah!
2019-12-31T16:49:14Z zig: I got a piece of my json streaming parser working.
2019-12-31T16:49:47Z zig: the streaming parser was easy, but putting it toghether into a json->scm was more difficult that microxml.
2019-12-31T16:50:22Z zig: I use some kind of continuation passing style.
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2019-12-31T16:52:06Z jcowan: You have a streaming microxml parser too?
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2019-12-31T17:12:44Z foof: happy new year!
2019-12-31T17:14:53Z Riastradh: Hi foof!  Happy new year!
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2019-12-31T17:22:33Z zaifir: foof: Thanks, and a very happy new year to you too!
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2019-12-31T17:40:26Z jcowan: Happy New Year's Eve
2019-12-31T17:40:57Z jcowan: known to us as "list-making day" because in the early New Year we read lists of the (personally) important things of the year
2019-12-31T17:43:31Z zig: jcowan: yxml
2019-12-31T17:45:10Z wasamasa: I've discovered today json is not usable for storing binary data in strings, does xml do better in this regard?
2019-12-31T17:45:21Z wasamasa: I could imagine just declaring the document iso-8895-1
2019-12-31T17:45:41Z jcowan: No, you can't in either case: base64 is your friend
2019-12-31T17:45:58Z wasamasa: meh
2019-12-31T17:45:59Z jcowan: XML explicitly forbids the use of control characters
2019-12-31T17:46:16Z wasamasa: I guess that's why both formats sprouted weird extensions
2019-12-31T17:46:36Z wasamasa: how hard can it be to make a serialization format permitting C-style escapes in strings
2019-12-31T17:46:40Z jcowan: The whole point of a textual protocol is that it's text
2019-12-31T17:47:00Z jcowan: Oh, you can do that if you want, but it's a higher level protocol, not part of JSON or XML
2019-12-31T17:47:03Z wasamasa: sure, but I wouldn't want to escape everything by using base64
2019-12-31T17:47:23Z wasamasa: that would be like coding in trigraphs
2019-12-31T17:47:39Z jcowan chuckles
2019-12-31T17:49:38Z jcowan: Well, it depends on how random your binary is.  If it's the result of compression you should probably use a uniform scheme, because the bytes are uniformly distributed
2019-12-31T17:49:52Z wasamasa: true
2019-12-31T17:49:54Z jcowan: if it's just a matter of a few random ^K or whatever then escaping makes sense
2019-12-31T17:50:21Z wasamasa: I'm somewhat upset that a tool designed to put data originating from any kind of network services into json and mogrifies half the possible bytes
2019-12-31T17:50:40Z wasamasa: but I can't come up with a better solution than emitting something looking like C-strings
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2019-12-31T18:35:52Z jcowan: if you need to transmit binary, use a binary protocol, I suppose
2019-12-31T18:36:29Z jcowan: I'm working on an effort to develop a protocol with equivalent text and binary forms, where the text is a close variant of S-expressions
2019-12-31T18:36:47Z jcowan: suited for passing Lisp/Scheme data around with minimal friction
2019-12-31T18:37:18Z jcowan: I decided tentatively to go with {...} for bytevectors, where the contents are hex digits, to get a little compression.
2019-12-31T18:38:04Z jcowan: (relative that is to #u8(#xde #xad #xbe #xef ...)
2019-12-31T18:38:06Z jcowan: )
2019-12-31T18:38:25Z zig: interesting.
2019-12-31T18:38:38Z jcowan: Chibi now prints bytevectors in this style except that 0 is printed 0, not #x0
2019-12-31T18:38:53Z jcowan: makes debugging much easier, most of the time
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2019-12-31T18:41:56Z jcowan: zig: looked at yxml
2019-12-31T18:42:04Z jcowan: I have a bug report, though
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2019-12-31T18:47:48Z zig: what is it? the maintainer was not aware of yxml.
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2019-12-31T18:48:01Z zig: was not aware of microxml.
2019-12-31T18:48:03Z wasamasa: jcowan: it's more about storing it
2019-12-31T18:48:29Z wasamasa: jcowan: for ease of processing json and csv are nicer than xml and binary protocols
2019-12-31T18:48:50Z jcowan: In both cases you probably want to unpack them into an internal data structure
2019-12-31T18:49:33Z wasamasa: I'm aware of a special binary format for storing that kind of data efficiently
2019-12-31T18:49:43Z wasamasa: but it's not standardized and there's only a single tool that can work with it
2019-12-31T18:50:29Z jcowan: Pointer?
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2019-12-31T18:50:47Z jcowan: zig: is yxml yours?
2019-12-31T18:56:57Z jcowan: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V-7E5d3fLON5DrVeHkVvp9h5SRgcteOgnPl8KvWTA3M is the grid I'm using to work out the protocols in parallel
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2019-12-31T18:57:29Z jcowan: it turns out that 99% of ASN.1 DER's bad reputation is its mismatch with statically typed languages, and that it works grrrrrrrrreat with dynamically typed ones
2019-12-31T18:58:05Z jcowan: it encodes each object as typecode + length in bytes + value in bytes or subobjects
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2019-12-31T18:58:54Z jcowan: so by adding some typecodes for "list" and various kinds of Schemey data structures, it works quite beautifully
2019-12-31T19:00:45Z wasamasa: fun
2019-12-31T19:01:20Z wasamasa: I've suspected as much after looking at java/c#/go code trying to deal with json, a far simpler format
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2019-12-31T19:01:34Z wasamasa: c# has a funny solution for this in form of the dynamic keyword
2019-12-31T19:01:51Z wasamasa: which basically switches to a mode closer to dynamic typing that will throw runtime exceptions when needed
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2019-12-31T19:04:52Z Riastradh: ...simple schema languages...
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2019-12-31T19:17:06Z jcowan: Riastradh: Examplotron
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2019-12-31T19:48:53Z roliacole: hey schemers
2019-12-31T19:49:12Z roliacole: some say CL is bad, why, is scheme as fast with gambit as sbcl
2019-12-31T19:49:19Z roliacole: which one should I use
2019-12-31T19:50:47Z zaifir: roliacole: For what?
2019-12-31T19:51:39Z roliacole: for programming in serious mode
2019-12-31T19:51:47Z roliacole: I know for sure elisp is bad
2019-12-31T19:51:52Z roliacole: heard plenty of it
2019-12-31T19:53:09Z zaifir: roliacole: It's not very helpful to sort languages into Bad and Good piles, unless you're specific about what you're looking for.
2019-12-31T19:55:21Z zaifir: roliacole: What Lisps do you know?
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2019-12-31T19:59:30Z wasamasa: oh, it's that hortiel guy
2019-12-31T19:59:36Z wasamasa: the questions felt familiar
2019-12-31T19:59:45Z wasamasa: they don't know much, that's for sure
2019-12-31T20:00:34Z jcowan: A translator from Scheme to SBCL-CL would be a great thing indeed
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2019-12-31T20:00:42Z jcowan: lots of libs, lots of performance
2019-12-31T20:03:51Z zaifir: Someone would have to figure out tail calls,
2019-12-31T20:04:06Z zaifir: although IIRC SBCL does TCO in many cases?
2019-12-31T20:04:34Z jcowan: IIRC there is only one CL in regular use that does not do TCO in all cases
2019-12-31T20:04:45Z zaifir: Oh, cool.
2019-12-31T20:05:11Z jcowan: I can't remember which, probably GnuCL
2019-12-31T20:05:35Z jcowan: and of course CLISP, but who would translate Scheme to run on CLISP?
2019-12-31T20:05:42Z wasamasa: a GNU fanatic
2019-12-31T20:06:06Z jcowan: They'd be better off with Guile or MIT, which are already GNU.
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2019-12-31T20:18:30Z pjb: roliacole: TCO is difficult or impossible to do in presence of dynamic binding, and there is dynamic binding hidden in a lot of macros (eg. those using unwind-protect).  This is why TCO can be activated less often in CL than in other language with another set of control structures.
2019-12-31T20:18:51Z pjb: wasamasa: some would say a GNU victim ;-)
2019-12-31T20:22:04Z Riastradh: That's not different from Scheme.
2019-12-31T20:23:32Z jcowan: imo fanatics are always victims
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2019-12-31T20:31:52Z pjb: Riastradh: There exist dynamic binding in scheme, but I'm sure a good statistical study would demonstrate that it's present in actual code much less often.
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2019-12-31T20:33:11Z pjb: Riastradh: that said, if we compound multithreading, dynamic binding may be implemented in a different way that doesn't hinder TCO.  It just means a more complex implementation.
2019-12-31T20:37:15Z jcowan: There is also a trick for doing the unbinding before calling the continuation which is documented somewhere
2019-12-31T20:42:01Z pjb: jcowan: what if a non-local exit occurs in the "continuation"?  The problem is that with something like unwind-protect, your apparent tail call is NOT a tail call.
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2019-12-31T20:42:30Z pjb: and a dynamic binding cannot be unbound before this apparent tail call returns!
2019-12-31T20:42:57Z jcowan: I can't remember the details of the trick or where to find it
2019-12-31T20:44:26Z Riastradh: Thinking of continuation-marks?
2019-12-31T20:45:01Z Riastradh: pjb: Nothing prevents making the design choice that for the places that can reasonably be tail calls, proper tail recursion must be provided.
2019-12-31T20:46:22Z zig: jcowan: yxml is not my doing.
2019-12-31T20:46:40Z jcowan: zig: oh, okay
2019-12-31T20:47:01Z jcowan: it claims to be a non-validating parser but ignores DTDs completely, which a non-validating parser cannot do
2019-12-31T20:49:21Z zig: how is it related?
2019-12-31T20:49:29Z zig: non-validating and ignoring DTDs?
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2019-12-31T22:50:08Z jcowan: zig: People often think that because validating parsers have to process the DTD, then non-validating parser don't have to process the DTD.
2019-12-31T22:50:24Z jcowan: In fact they still have to process it, just more shallowly
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2019-12-31T22:51:18Z jcowan: I wrote a program called dtdcrunch that takes a DTD and reduces it to a simpler DTD with just the minimum information needed, and in columnar format too.
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2019-12-31T23:04:56Z zig: I backlogged in the logs available online. It seems that I still have a few things to learn about xml...
2019-12-31T23:05:03Z zig: happy new year!
2019-12-31T23:06:08Z zig: I ported almost all https://github.com/nst/JSONTestSuite/ then figured it would be best to rely .json
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2019-12-31T23:07:23Z zig: instead!!
2019-12-31T23:07:49Z zig: I teached myself, again the same lesson, think before you code.
2019-12-31T23:09:18Z zig: I hope this year will be the year of scheme in the desktop ;)
2019-12-31T23:09:39Z zig hides
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