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2019-11-01T01:16:14Z lockywolf__: hi, everyone
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2019-11-01T01:16:57Z lockywolf__: So STk is now available on gitlab and compiles on modern glibc
2019-11-01T01:17:01Z lockywolf__: https://gitlab.com/Gallesio/STk
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2019-11-01T09:58:01Z wasamasa: r4rs
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2019-11-01T10:13:36Z filternet: Hey there fellas!
2019-11-01T10:14:28Z filternet: Can someonesum up all the best greatest functional methods? I read about foreach(), map(), reduce(), find(), filter(),
2019-11-01T10:14:48Z filternet: so reduce is not just a sum by defaust is it?
2019-11-01T10:14:51Z filternet: l
2019-11-01T10:15:06Z filternet: Just deriving a single value from a set
2019-11-01T10:19:06Z wasamasa: you sure you're not looking for a javascript channel?
2019-11-01T10:19:33Z filternet: Elementary Functional logic macros for C  https://pastebin.com/5T4wg3WH
2019-11-01T10:19:33Z filternet: C Print number with SI, IEC prefix names/symbols https://pastebin.com/pFGBe9yS    matrix gcc macro functional https://pastebin.com/g3btXRsg
2019-11-01T10:19:33Z filternet: foreach() in C, gcc macro magic, lambda  https://pastebin.com/G8SZcQPu
2019-11-01T10:19:33Z filternet: Macro Magic: Functional Logic Macros for GCC in C  https://pastebin.com/rFfJG8dL
2019-11-01T10:19:33Z filternet: Fizz-Buzz Reloaded C  https://pastebin.com/VpNAJ9bS
2019-11-01T10:19:34Z filternet: rotate 2 points around a center point in 2 dimensions, C  https://pastebin.com/FSCt7Dmn
2019-11-01T10:19:42Z filternet: autotype cout_1 macro/function in C beta 5  https://pastebin.com/WQswNDx9
2019-11-01T10:19:45Z wasamasa: m(
2019-11-01T10:19:49Z filternet: i di dthese in C
2019-11-01T10:20:00Z filternet: using std c99
2019-11-01T10:20:07Z wasamasa: that still got nothing to do with scheme
2019-11-01T10:20:25Z filternet: it has *something* in common ;}
2019-11-01T10:20:39Z wasamasa: about as much as a tax declaration has with a piece of poetry
2019-11-01T10:20:48Z wasamasa: C++ macros vs scheme macros
2019-11-01T10:20:53Z filternet: C
2019-11-01T10:21:11Z filternet: Also variadic functions
2019-11-01T10:21:48Z wasamasa: come up with an equivalent comparison for C preprocessor tricks
2019-11-01T10:22:17Z filternet: what do you mean by that?
2019-11-01T10:22:36Z filternet: I am not a circus monkey to do tricks
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2019-11-01T10:23:26Z filternet: I like functional programming, polymorphism, and type-less logic
2019-11-01T10:23:37Z filternet: the less i type the better
2019-11-01T10:23:45Z wasamasa: I recommend you to learn some scheme then and read https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html
2019-11-01T10:24:13Z filternet: Can scheme compile in native code btw?
2019-11-01T10:24:27Z filternet: I know scheme, played a little with scheme scripts
2019-11-01T10:24:30Z wasamasa: there are scheme implementations that come with a compiler, yes
2019-11-01T10:24:44Z wasamasa: I use CHICKEN which compiles to C and leaves that step to your preferred scheme compiler
2019-11-01T10:24:44Z filternet: Are they crappy like haskell ?
2019-11-01T10:24:57Z wasamasa: lol
2019-11-01T10:25:01Z filternet: Or it compiles to real good usable code?
2019-11-01T10:25:21Z wasamasa: what does that even mean?
2019-11-01T10:26:18Z wasamasa: I meant C compiler of course
2019-11-01T10:26:25Z filternet: Haskell made some magic script interpreter that tries to be smart and compiles parts of the script and runs it, small parts at a time, but there are random delays of a few ms to seconds
2019-11-01T10:26:38Z filternet: and it eats ram
2019-11-01T10:26:51Z wasamasa: have you actually used ghc instead of ghci?
2019-11-01T10:26:51Z filternet: also hogs cpu time unpredictably
2019-11-01T10:27:08Z wasamasa: well, that's part of the language behavior, to do lazy evaluation by default
2019-11-01T10:27:28Z filternet: And my hello world program was 1MB with ghc
2019-11-01T10:27:59Z filternet: so spent 2 weeks with it, and said goodbye
2019-11-01T10:28:15Z wasamasa: that's because ghc defaults to creating static builds
2019-11-01T10:28:30Z wasamasa: if you did static compilation with anything comparable, you'd get similarly sized executables
2019-11-01T10:29:42Z filternet: nah
2019-11-01T10:29:54Z filternet: that is not the norm around here
2019-11-01T10:30:03Z wasamasa: it is in dynamic programming languages land
2019-11-01T10:30:12Z wasamasa: even for stuff like go
2019-11-01T10:30:12Z filternet: I wolud compile everything static, but damned x11 makes it hard
2019-11-01T10:32:50Z filternet: wasamasa: can you suggest functional logic methods? ;>
2019-11-01T10:33:09Z wasamasa: go look at srfi-1
2019-11-01T10:33:23Z wasamasa: or go back to haskell manuals
2019-11-01T10:33:37Z filternet: wasamasa: what kind of stuff do you use scheme for?
2019-11-01T10:33:49Z filternet: And only as a script replacement for bash?
2019-11-01T10:33:54Z wasamasa: CLI tools and web applications
2019-11-01T10:35:08Z filternet: Do you use C ?
2019-11-01T10:35:33Z wasamasa: occasionally
2019-11-01T10:35:45Z filternet: Why? ;}
2019-11-01T10:35:56Z filternet: What can you not use your scheme for?
2019-11-01T10:36:09Z farnerup: Embedded systems for instance
2019-11-01T10:36:11Z wasamasa: all the low-level glue
2019-11-01T10:36:15Z filternet: Umm yeah...
2019-11-01T10:36:23Z wasamasa: I cannot use something like the inotify API without writing some C first
2019-11-01T10:36:26Z filternet: I program for avrs too
2019-11-01T10:36:36Z filternet: Oh
2019-11-01T10:36:46Z wasamasa: so I spent some time with that and released a scheme library so that I don't have to do that again
2019-11-01T10:36:47Z filternet: Why can't scheme define low level things?
2019-11-01T10:36:48Z filternet: ;/
2019-11-01T10:36:51Z filternet: ??
2019-11-01T10:36:59Z filternet: It is not impossible
2019-11-01T10:37:07Z filternet: SCHEME ?
2019-11-01T10:37:58Z wasamasa: because that's how linux rolls
2019-11-01T10:38:20Z filternet: I did write a bash script function that did putpixel in the fbdev linux framebuffer device, lol
2019-11-01T10:38:31Z wasamasa: cool, now try doing the same with the inotify API
2019-11-01T10:38:55Z filternet: I also have a bash script that opens a http connection with nc
2019-11-01T10:39:22Z filternet: If you have a way... you ca nuse it
2019-11-01T10:40:42Z wasamasa: in any case, there's no single programming language for everything
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2019-11-01T10:42:09Z filternet: wasamasa: asm
2019-11-01T10:42:20Z filternet: wasamasa: in C however you can even do ASM inlined
2019-11-01T10:42:30Z filternet: so i stick with C
2019-11-01T10:42:34Z wasamasa: good job, now you're using not a single programming language for everything
2019-11-01T10:42:47Z filternet: And since ASM is very slow to develop
2019-11-01T10:43:15Z filternet: wasamasa: ok sometimes i do bash scripting a bit for quick hacks and use gnu coreutils
2019-11-01T10:43:42Z wasamasa: wow, you're confirming my point even further
2019-11-01T10:43:55Z wasamasa: it's as if I've been on to something
2019-11-01T10:44:37Z filternet: but if you look at it this way" gnu coreutils are already written, and if they achieve what i want, then i don't have to rewrite the functionality in C again...
2019-11-01T10:45:06Z filternet: gnu tools are written in C most of the time
2019-11-01T10:46:15Z filternet: So the thing i dislike in scheme is the translation layer libraries.
2019-11-01T10:46:15Z wasamasa: so?
2019-11-01T10:46:27Z wasamasa: lol
2019-11-01T10:46:30Z filternet: They limit what i may do in scheme
2019-11-01T10:47:15Z wasamasa: I don't get how this is a scheme-specific argument
2019-11-01T10:47:22Z filternet: i used dd to copy pixel data in my framebuffer and it was fine
2019-11-01T10:47:25Z filternet: so
2019-11-01T10:47:25Z wasamasa: do you complain about awk not giving you inline assembler?
2019-11-01T10:47:36Z wasamasa: I can do exactly that from scheme just fine
2019-11-01T10:47:45Z wasamasa: from anything giving me file access in fact
2019-11-01T10:47:46Z filternet: I don't like awk that much, but i used sed and grep much
2019-11-01T10:48:06Z filternet: I won't complain, because they do what their function is
2019-11-01T10:48:08Z wasamasa: go use plan9 if you like devfs stuff
2019-11-01T10:48:32Z filternet: I am fine with C, and x11, mostly
2019-11-01T10:48:39Z filternet: and i can use fbdev too
2019-11-01T10:49:00Z filternet: i started to use xcb for graphic display pixel-by pixel
2019-11-01T10:49:23Z filternet: I only need a framebuffer
2019-11-01T10:49:38Z wasamasa: I suspect this is more of a counseling session than an information exchange
2019-11-01T10:49:45Z wasamasa: sure, there's nothing wrong with liking C
2019-11-01T10:50:12Z wasamasa: do you expect some angry schemer to convince you to use scheme instead?
2019-11-01T10:50:59Z filternet: At least
2019-11-01T10:51:01Z wasamasa: that won't happen
2019-11-01T10:51:17Z filternet: show me how you render vector graphics, and make a game ussing scheme
2019-11-01T10:51:40Z wasamasa: I use the cairo library and sdl for that
2019-11-01T10:52:04Z filternet: i tried sdl but ditched it in favor of fbdev and xcb/x11
2019-11-01T10:52:45Z wasamasa: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/doodle#example
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2019-11-01T11:25:36Z filternet: btw http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/doodle#example
2019-11-01T11:25:58Z filternet: i circle is a circle, not a disc, or a ring
2019-11-01T11:26:34Z filternet: the circle has 0 width, and is at r distance from origin
2019-11-01T11:27:56Z filternet: I have called my "circle" drawing function ring() and filledcircle()
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2019-11-01T12:55:57Z filternet: wasamasa: thanks dude, this is very informative: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html
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2019-11-01T14:47:16Z amz3: It is neat how the versioned nstore, re-use nstore and expose a superset of the API of nstore. Is that what people call fractal design?
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2019-11-01T15:12:11Z DKordic: Seems like a Feeping Creaturism to me.
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2019-11-01T15:54:05Z amz3: "A deliberate spoonerism for creeping featurism, meant to imply that the system or program in question has become a misshapen creature of hacks. This term isn't really well defined, but it sounds so neat that most hackers have said or heard it. It is probably reinforced by an image of terminals prowling about in the dark making their customary noises."
2019-11-01T15:54:10Z amz3: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/F/feeping-creaturism.html
2019-11-01T15:55:12Z amz3: what is feeping creaturism in the need to version data?
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2019-11-01T16:10:31Z amz3: what is feeping creaturism, is trying to workaround the vnstore. Things like I have seens in, so called, commercial production databases.
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2019-11-01T18:04:52Z erkin: feep feep feep
2019-11-01T18:14:24Z DKordic: amz3: What makes such versioning more than an application note?
2019-11-01T18:16:47Z DKordic: In the most simple case packin a Key and a revision number into a new Key?
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2019-11-01T19:12:42Z amz3: DKordic: What is an application note?
2019-11-01T19:13:12Z amz3: Yeah, there is many ways to implement ad-hoc or custom audit-trail for whatever data model you have. The thing with vnstore is that it is generic and it allows to adapt to whatever (business) domain you have. An API could be provided on top that looks just like mongodb or postgresql. That is the point of an expert system, do the work for you. Of course, you can implement it yourself.
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2019-11-02T05:38:31Z erkin: Racket Game Jam just began. They're accepting R5RS/R6RS entries too.
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2019-11-02T10:49:09Z amz3: oh great! I successfully woke up from procrastination to discover that emsdk master fail to build chibi master :(
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2019-11-02T11:03:31Z amz3: it is failure all around not just master vs master.
2019-11-02T11:03:43Z amz3: s/failure/failures/
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2019-11-02T11:54:04Z f-a: I am trying to solve http://community.schemewiki.org/?S-99-07
2019-11-02T11:54:50Z f-a: and my solution is a bit more compact http://www.ariis.it/link/t/paste24958-0
2019-11-02T11:54:57Z f-a: it seems to work, am I missing a corner case?
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2019-11-02T12:12:06Z wasamasa: the one where your scheme implementation cannot deal with an apply of a stupidly large size
2019-11-02T12:13:44Z f-a: fair enough
2019-11-02T12:14:20Z wasamasa: other than that it looks fine
2019-11-02T12:14:56Z wasamasa: CHICKEN used to have an apply limit, but they removed it at some point
2019-11-02T12:15:15Z wasamasa: hence why you can find some APIs offering you a version with and without apply
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2019-11-02T12:27:33Z mdhughes: Is there a general list splitting function, equivalent to string-split but for lists? srfi-1 has split-at which needs an index to make 2 lists, but I need multiple splits by a predicate.
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2019-11-02T12:33:06Z mdhughes: (break) also does just one split. Which I can recurse on, I guess, but that's a little ugly.
2019-11-02T12:34:12Z wasamasa: recur until there's nothing else to break
2019-11-02T12:42:31Z jcowan: f-a, wasamasa:  https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ApplyArgsLimit.md documents the soft and hard limits on apply for many Schemes
2019-11-02T12:42:44Z wasamasa: very cool
2019-11-02T12:42:51Z f-a: awesome, jcowan
2019-11-02T12:45:05Z f-a: less awesome to know apply is shaky ground =D
2019-11-02T12:45:59Z wasamasa: some people say it's more of a meta-programming construct
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2019-11-02T12:47:05Z f-a: tho who will ever reach 1,000,000 args
2019-11-02T12:47:17Z f-a: I don't think I ever did it, in any language
2019-11-02T12:57:33Z erkin: Do the previous standards set such limits?
2019-11-02T13:00:05Z wasamasa: that's implementation-defined behavior
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2019-11-02T14:47:11Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ImplementationContrasts.md is the go-to place for how Schemes vary
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2019-11-02T17:14:56Z amz3: I give up :/
2019-11-02T17:15:21Z amz3: chibi emscripten is very complex software, at least for me.
2019-11-02T17:16:47Z amz3: I postulate that it is easier to compile scheme to web assembly than go through emsdk
2019-11-02T17:17:09Z amz3: now I am smarter than this, I should prolly use gambit instead.
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2019-11-02T20:08:03Z nisstyre: am I wrong in thinking the notion of a "closure" is really an implementation technique, and the place they arise from in programming languages is really just the ability to have lexically scoped functions? The definition from SICP seems to agree with me: "A closure is an implementation technique for representing procedures with free variables"
2019-11-02T20:08:49Z nisstyre: from what I can tell there's actually contention over whether closure = purely implementation technique, or closure = general concept of capturing free variables in a function
2019-11-02T20:10:14Z nisstyre: for some reason SICP generally uses closure in the abstract algebra sense though for talking about how lists can have lists as elements of themselves
2019-11-02T20:11:07Z nisstyre: very odd https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html#call_footnote_Temp_154
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2019-11-02T20:13:32Z nisstyre: I don't know why they felt it was necessary to bring up "closure" as in algebra, it seems like it would be more confusing than useful since they're not talking about sets
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2019-11-02T22:55:36Z la_zaifir: nisstyre: But you said it yourself--they use `closure' in a more abstract sense.
2019-11-02T22:57:33Z la_zaifir: nisstyre: What's perhaps confusing is that, while they talk a lot about closure, they don't formalize the idea mathematically.
2019-11-02T22:58:10Z la_zaifir: nisstyre: So perhaps as a result the connection to algebra seems a little metaphorical.
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2019-11-02T23:13:05Z nisstyre: la_zaifir: closure in algebra is totally different though, it's like saying x*y is always a positive number if both x and y are positive numbers
2019-11-02T23:13:15Z nisstyre: nothing to do with functional programming or computers
2019-11-02T23:13:51Z nisstyre: but yeah, I guess it's more like an analogy
2019-11-02T23:18:23Z nisstyre: I guess the way SICP uses "closure" sort of makes sense, saying that if you do (cons a b) and a and b are pairs then you get a pair back
2019-11-02T23:18:37Z nisstyre: but that is...not how a mathematician would define that
2019-11-02T23:19:04Z nisstyre: unless you were talking about the set of all pairs and cons was a binary operation only on pairs
2019-11-02T23:19:57Z nisstyre: they could've just said you can nest arbitrary data with cons and left it at that
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2019-11-03T01:21:49Z jcowan: nisstyre: The term closure comes from mathematical logic, which a variable is closed in a given expression if it is bound with an ∀ or ∃ quantifier.  λ is not a quantifier, but it binds variables in the same way.
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2019-11-03T01:56:08Z nisstyre: jcowan: yeah, but SICP is using the abstract algebra definition of it, e.g. saying integers are closed under multiplication or whatever
2019-11-03T01:56:12Z nisstyre: I just found that really strange
2019-11-03T01:57:19Z nisstyre: and they even have a footnote acknowledging the other definition
2019-11-03T01:57:25Z nisstyre: but saying they decided to not use it
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2019-11-03T02:00:57Z jcowan nods
2019-11-03T02:01:17Z jcowan: Terminological buccaneering is a vritual necessity
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2019-11-03T02:12:09Z filternet: nisstyre: hey fella, you like scheming ?
2019-11-03T02:12:48Z nisstyre: filternet: yes of course
2019-11-03T02:12:57Z filternet: :>
2019-11-03T02:13:15Z filternet: i like abusing gcc too
2019-11-03T02:13:34Z nisstyre: lately I've been doing Guile in my C code
2019-11-03T02:16:11Z filternet: i heard about Guile
2019-11-03T02:16:39Z filternet: Does it have some good magic?
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2019-11-03T12:33:47Z lockywolf_: Could someone tell me again, what is wrong about having a function to parse &rest as a way to implement kwargs?
2019-11-03T12:34:43Z lockywolf_: The discussion on the mailing list doesn't seem productive, to be honest.
2019-11-03T12:38:27Z lockywolf_: And it would be super fast in case you don't use any kwargs at all.
2019-11-03T12:39:27Z lockywolf_: And I don't think that using kwargs to extend a computational kernel is a good idea any way, regardless of the implementation.
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2019-11-03T12:58:42Z erkin: You can implement keyword arguments with a plist parser if you like.
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2019-11-03T13:11:37Z lockywolf_: Indeed.
2019-11-03T13:12:34Z lockywolf_: I would just vote for a standard name for a parser.
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2019-11-03T14:37:12Z pjb: lockywolf__: nothing wrong. Only some people think it's "slow".
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2019-11-03T14:41:44Z amz3: lockywolf__: there is chibi's let-keyword...
2019-11-03T14:42:13Z amz3: I am in favor of let-keyword. I find the addition of keywords to the language to be a mistake.
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2019-11-03T14:44:40Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: "Keywords are valid values" is the problem.  There is no way to determine lexically whether :foo is a keyword or a value.
2019-11-03T14:45:58Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: You can use some trick like cddring down the arglist, but that totally breaks if the list isn't of the nice (<kw> <val> ...) form.
2019-11-03T14:47:59Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: So Re: standardizing a parser--any parser here is going to be a bundle of hacks, in current Scheme.
2019-11-03T14:50:57Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: I don't particularly like keywords, but Racket got this right: https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/keywords.html
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2019-11-03T14:51:40Z la_zaifir: amz3: let-keyword is very nice, as well.
2019-11-03T14:52:51Z pjb: But there is even better than keyword arguments!  There's NLP arguments:  (dwim compute the root of all evil)
2019-11-03T14:52:52Z la_zaifir: amz3: And yes, I'd rather not extend the language.
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2019-11-03T14:54:57Z la_zaifir: NLP argument?
2019-11-03T14:55:02Z la_zaifir: *arguments
2019-11-03T14:55:50Z pjb: Natural Language Processing.
2019-11-03T14:56:07Z pjb: You say what you want in English, and the function analyses it and computes it.
2019-11-03T14:56:23Z pjb: (dwim compute the product of 3 and 4) -> 12
2019-11-03T14:56:49Z pjb: Instead of (compute :operation * :first-argument 3 :second-argument 4) which is worse because keywords.
2019-11-03T14:57:42Z la_zaifir: Hah, ok.
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2019-11-03T15:12:33Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, why would I do this at all?
2019-11-03T15:13:29Z lockywolf__: I'd call a function like (function a b c 'keywords 'k1 v1 'k2 v2)
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2019-11-03T15:16:54Z lockywolf__: And inside a function I would do like (let ((parser-object (list predicate-1? default-value-1? vaidator1?))) (parse parser-object rest)))
2019-11-03T15:17:36Z lockywolf__: sorry, default-value should be without "?"
2019-11-03T15:18:53Z lockywolf__: default-value could be a delayed evaluation of some sort, or a literal default value or a
2019-11-03T15:21:21Z lockywolf__: pjb, I wouldn't mind them being slow. I guess it should be possible to make a (parser-specific) macro which would declare both functions with names differing by, say, -kw suffix. And if you care about speed, you would be calling the kw-less one.
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2019-11-03T15:25:51Z lockywolf__: And _no_ need in extending the interpreter, reader, macros or whatever
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2019-11-03T15:27:54Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: How does this solve the problem?  What if the vn in your example are themselves keywords?
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2019-11-03T15:28:30Z erkin: pjb: You mean like CL's loop macro DSL?
2019-11-03T15:28:54Z pjb: For example.
2019-11-03T15:28:56Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, I don't understand the question. They keywords go like "kw1" "val1" "kw2" "val2", etc
2019-11-03T15:29:48Z lockywolf__: "val1" cannot be a keyword because it is not in the keyword position (i.e., even position)
2019-11-03T15:29:48Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: I mean, what if the caller passes keywords as those values?  How does the parser handle that?
2019-11-03T15:30:11Z lockywolf__: I don't see any problems with passing keywords as values
2019-11-03T15:30:15Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: So then how do you reject invalid lists?
2019-11-03T15:30:32Z lockywolf__: which lists would be invalid?
2019-11-03T15:30:43Z lockywolf__: with the odd number of arguments?
2019-11-03T15:30:47Z lockywolf__: *an odd
2019-11-03T15:30:55Z la_zaifir: How can you tell a keyword is in an odd slot, when it's lexically just a symbol?
2019-11-03T15:31:20Z la_zaifir: This is the problem!
2019-11-03T15:31:54Z la_zaifir: Er, s/odd/even/.  Whatever the wrong configuration is.
2019-11-03T15:32:16Z lockywolf__: you tell it to the parser directly
2019-11-03T15:32:48Z lockywolf__: explicitly
2019-11-03T15:32:54Z la_zaifir: (my-fun 'keyword 'a-keyword 'a-keyword? 'another-keyword? ...)
2019-11-03T15:33:07Z lockywolf__: how do you call the parser?
2019-11-03T15:33:45Z lockywolf__: inside my-fun
2019-11-03T15:34:32Z erkin: (define (my-fun . args) (do-stuff (parse args))
2019-11-03T15:34:35Z erkin: )
2019-11-03T15:34:42Z lockywolf__: no, that's not gonna work
2019-11-03T15:35:06Z erkin: What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
2019-11-03T15:35:09Z lockywolf__: you need to give the parser the grammar of your keywords.
2019-11-03T15:35:25Z amz3: I am not sure how useful would be strict compile time checks given that if the code is wrong it will not run.
2019-11-03T15:35:26Z la_zaifir: Yeah, that's a problem.
2019-11-03T15:35:35Z la_zaifir: let-keyword is a better approach.
2019-11-03T15:36:04Z lockywolf__: I say no need in compile-time checks at all
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2019-11-03T15:36:13Z amz3: lockywolf__: why?
2019-11-03T15:36:14Z erkin: You can fold over the list of args and accumulate them.
2019-11-03T15:36:52Z amz3: what is the reason for the willingness to have compile time check in keyword arguments at call site?
2019-11-03T15:36:52Z erkin: Like args-fold of SRFI-37
2019-11-03T15:37:17Z erkin: Or you can write a reader macro for keywords. The possibilities are endless. The world's your oyster!
2019-11-03T15:37:21Z la_zaifir: You'd have to fold with an arg-counter to determine the parity of the position.  But then the list could be incorrect, and you're still screwed.
2019-11-03T15:38:07Z amz3: I had only bad xp with keyword arguments.
2019-11-03T15:38:33Z lockywolf__: amz3, I don't think that if kw args are used it is important that they are slow or fast
2019-11-03T15:38:44Z lockywolf__: kw args are for talking to people, and people are always slow
2019-11-03T15:39:19Z amz3: that is not a good argument.
2019-11-03T15:39:24Z lockywolf__: why?
2019-11-03T15:39:31Z amz3: the people might be slow, the implementation could be fast.
2019-11-03T15:39:49Z lockywolf__: it can
2019-11-03T15:40:04Z lockywolf__: but I am saying that when talking to people, it will not be essential
2019-11-03T15:40:13Z amz3: my argument for let-keyword, a) is it simpler to implement (no reader hack) b) it is slow, so people will use it carefully
2019-11-03T15:40:31Z amz3: s/slow/slower/
2019-11-03T15:41:05Z lockywolf__: it is hard for me to imagine fomeone iterating over a full set of valid keyword values
2019-11-03T15:41:08Z amz3: also let-keyword can be optimized by the compiler.
2019-11-03T15:42:49Z lockywolf__: the only limitation I see is that anonymous &rest should go before kwargs, but I don't think this is a serious limitation
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2019-11-03T16:39:13Z jcowan: The argument for keywords is in talking to external functions that have many, many options.
2019-11-03T16:39:22Z jcowan: Consider Posix open().
2019-11-03T16:39:47Z jcowan: My current model for open-file (to be introduced into SRFI 170) is this:
2019-11-03T16:43:25Z jcowan: (open-file path &key append truncate create exclusive permissions).  Trying to make that legible without some such mechanism would be a nightmare.
2019-11-03T16:44:57Z jcowan: SRFI 177 requires no reader hacks; instead it requires an invocation hack:  (call/kw open-file "README" &key :mode 'input)
2019-11-03T16:45:07Z jcowan: (Sorry, left out the mode keyword)
2019-11-03T16:45:34Z jcowan: Call/kw is a non-syntax-rules macro that translates to the Right Thing on different Schemes with or without keyword support.
2019-11-03T16:46:28Z jcowan: And as for talking to people, programs are almost exclusively for talking to people, including talking to our future selves.  Othewise we'd just write machine language in binary.
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2019-11-03T19:35:43Z amz3: ok
2019-11-03T19:35:44Z amz3: tx
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2019-11-04T04:20:13Z amz3: there is a thread about keywords at https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-177/msg/12546075/
2019-11-04T04:20:21Z amz3: How and Why keyword arguments are useful or harmful?
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2019-11-04T10:01:30Z rk4: community.schemewiki.org would appear down :<
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2019-11-04T17:40:47Z erkin: What primitive subroutines must a barebones Scheme dialect implement to be feature complete?
2019-11-04T17:41:36Z erkin: Not counting things that could be written in Scheme but are hardcoded in the underlying language for performance.
2019-11-04T17:41:47Z f-a: erkin: I wouuld add, sensible, or peopl- ok
2019-11-04T17:42:05Z erkin: wot
2019-11-04T17:42:39Z qu1j0t3: erkin: have you referred to the r*rs documents?
2019-11-04T17:42:51Z erkin: Yeah but they specify a lot of things.
2019-11-04T17:43:02Z f-a: erkin: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/faqs/lang/lisp/part1/faq-doc-6.html not scheme, but a good start
2019-11-04T17:43:18Z erkin: For instance, R4RS absorbed a portion of SRFI-1.
2019-11-04T17:43:20Z f-a: or course please don't go full Peano
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2019-11-04T17:46:54Z erkin: So: define set! quote lambda eval cons car cdr eq? atom? if list
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2019-11-04T17:48:26Z erkin: And call/cc
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2019-11-04T17:52:08Z erkin: Actually, list can be defined with recursive cons.
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2019-11-04T17:53:00Z erkin: Or even better: (define (list . vals) vals)
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2019-11-04T17:56:15Z erkin: begin, values
2019-11-04T18:00:07Z ggole: You can church encode pairs if you are going that far
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2019-11-04T18:36:02Z mdhughes: R0RS should be enough for anyone.
2019-11-04T18:38:23Z erkin: RRS is woefully outdated though.
2019-11-04T18:38:41Z f-a: and useful!
2019-11-04T18:38:43Z mdhughes: (actually, probably not R0, it still had LABELS and a bunch of process stuff)
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2019-11-04T18:41:10Z mdhughes: The trouble is RRS isn't quite big enough to be practical and has old stuff, but R2RS has a big math & string library.
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2019-11-04T20:51:37Z jcowan: R0RS and R1RS didn't define ordinary procedures; it inherited them from Maclisp.
2019-11-04T20:51:58Z jcowan: R2RS is the first thing you could call a standard as opposed to a research report on a single implementation.
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2019-11-04T22:45:21Z Jalepeno_X: Hello
2019-11-04T22:45:45Z Jalepeno_X: I'm working through the exercise on Chapter 9 of "Simply Scheme"
2019-11-04T22:45:49Z Jalepeno_X: I'm on this problem.
2019-11-04T22:47:11Z Jalepeno_X: ; Write a procedure common-words that takes two sentences as arguments and
2019-11-04T22:47:11Z Jalepeno_X: ; returns a sentence containing only those words that appear both in the first sentence and
2019-11-04T22:47:11Z Jalepeno_X: ; in the second sentence.
2019-11-04T22:47:20Z Jalepeno_X: and the answer is:
2019-11-04T22:47:29Z Jalepeno_X: (define (common-words senta sentb)
2019-11-04T22:47:29Z Jalepeno_X: (keep (lambda (wd) (member? wd sentb)) senta))
2019-11-04T22:47:48Z Jalepeno_X: What I don't get is the (member? wd sentb)) senta)) part
2019-11-04T22:48:39Z Jalepeno_X: shouldn't it be (member? wd sentb senta) so that "wd" in sentb is compared to senta?
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2019-11-04T22:53:04Z mange: Can you explain to me what you think each part of your function is doing? What does "keep" do? What does "lambda" do? What does "member?" do?
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2019-11-04T22:55:41Z Jalepeno_X: lamba is a function without a defined term, member? askes if what wd is in sentb and keep I actually forgot what keep does
2019-11-04T22:56:16Z mange: Can you find out what keep does?
2019-11-04T22:57:39Z Jalepeno_X: oh keep keep returns a sentence containing only the words of hte argument of the sentence for which the predicate is true
2019-11-04T22:59:29Z Jalepeno_X: I don't understand how member? is comparing if wd is in both senta and sentb
2019-11-04T23:00:08Z mange: What is the sentence that keep is called with?
2019-11-04T23:00:50Z Jalepeno_X: I don't know, senta?
2019-11-04T23:01:19Z mange: Yeah! So (keep (lambda ...) senta) means that keep is using "senta" as the sentence that it's working on.
2019-11-04T23:01:50Z mange: Which means that keep will go through senta and return only the words that match its predicate. What is the predicate that keep is called with?
2019-11-04T23:03:13Z Jalepeno_X: Ohhhhhh duhhhhh
2019-11-04T23:03:34Z Jalepeno_X: Man that's weird, it's very.... is recursive the word?
2019-11-04T23:03:48Z Jalepeno_X: How do you guys think like that regularly lol.
2019-11-04T23:04:00Z Jalepeno_X: Thank you for the help.
2019-11-04T23:04:35Z mange: Strictly speaking it is recursive, but I think this has a very natural reading. If I were to explain this in english I would say "look through senta, returning only the words that are members of sentb".
2019-11-04T23:08:25Z Jalepeno_X: I kinda see now, I guess I'm not used to seeing lambda in the middle of another function like that.
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2019-11-04T23:13:34Z mange: Yeah, that's pretty common. :) There are some utilities to make it easier. For example, srfi 26 lets you write it as something like (keep (cut member? <> sentb) senta). I'm not sure that's really clearer, though.
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2019-11-04T23:16:55Z Jalepeno_X: It's a little clearer because there's less brackets to keep track of.  I think what tripped me up is that you can put the lambda in the middle of a another procedure like that.  I keep wanting to see these blocks of text as paragraphs :)
2019-11-04T23:19:45Z mange: It's helpful to consider that each matching pair of parentheses is a thing which stands in its own right. So when you're looking at keep you can see (keep (...) senta), and then you can consider (lambda (wd) (...)) separately to it.
2019-11-04T23:20:11Z mange: That's not 100% true, for instance the (wd) must be intepreted in light of the lambda before it, but it's a good rule of thumb.
2019-11-04T23:21:59Z Jalepeno_X: So the procedure for the function "common-words" was keep, and the lamba function procedure was member?
2019-11-04T23:22:07Z Jalepeno_X: I think I'm getting it now.
2019-11-04T23:23:35Z mange: I don't quite understand what you mean by *the* procedure, but otherwise yes. "common-words" called "keep", and the lambda called "member?".
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2019-11-04T23:30:06Z Jalepeno_X: I'm probably using the terms incorrectly, would "keep" be considered be the body to the procedure name "common-words" and "member?" be the body of the lambda?
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2019-11-04T23:32:45Z mange: Yep, although these things can be more complex (ie. a procedure can call more than one other procedure and do multiple things in a body), in this our procedures (common-words and the lambda) both do only one thing.
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2019-11-05T00:31:24Z Jalepeno_X: kinda struggling with another problem
2019-11-05T00:31:45Z Jalepeno_X: ; Write a procedure unabbrev that takes two sentences as arguments. It should
2019-11-05T00:31:46Z Jalepeno_X: ; return a sentence that’s the same as the first sentence, except that any numbers in the
2019-11-05T00:31:46Z Jalepeno_X: ; original sentence should be replaced with words from the second sentence. A number 2
2019-11-05T00:31:46Z Jalepeno_X: ; in the first sentence should be replaced with the second word of the second sentence, a
2019-11-05T00:31:46Z Jalepeno_X: ; 6 with the sixth word, and so on.
2019-11-05T00:31:46Z Jalepeno_X: ;
2019-11-05T00:31:48Z Jalepeno_X: ; > (unabbrev ’(john 1 wayne fred 4) ’(bill hank kermit joey))
2019-11-05T00:31:50Z Jalepeno_X: ; (JOHN BILL WAYNE FRED JOEY)
2019-11-05T00:31:52Z Jalepeno_X: ;
2019-11-05T00:31:54Z Jalepeno_X: ; > (unabbrev ’(i 3 4 tell 2) ’(do you want to know a secret?))
2019-11-05T00:31:56Z Jalepeno_X: ; (I WANT TO TELL YOU)
2019-11-05T00:31:58Z Jalepeno_X: Is the problem
2019-11-05T00:32:00Z Jalepeno_X: and the answer is
2019-11-05T00:32:18Z Jalepeno_X: (define (unabbrev senta sentb)
2019-11-05T00:32:18Z Jalepeno_X:   (every
2019-11-05T00:32:18Z Jalepeno_X:     (lambda (wd) (if (number? wd) (item wd sentb) wd))
2019-11-05T00:32:18Z Jalepeno_X: senta))
2019-11-05T00:33:30Z Jalepeno_X: (number? wd) means if the word is  a number
2019-11-05T00:33:44Z Jalepeno_X: I don't get what (item wd sentb is saying.
2019-11-05T00:34:40Z mange: Instead of pasting lots of lines in the channel, please use a paste next time (see the topic: https://paste.debian.net).
2019-11-05T00:34:52Z Jalepeno_X: okay
2019-11-05T00:36:21Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: `every' isn't the correct list-traversing function here, but you're quite close.
2019-11-05T00:37:20Z Jalepeno_X: I didn't come up with the answer, I'm trying to understand the solution someone else came up with.
2019-11-05T00:37:31Z mange: Are you trying to solve these problems yourself before looking at the answers?
2019-11-05T00:38:20Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: Well, that solution is wrong.  Unless that's not the every from SRFI 1 that we know and love.
2019-11-05T00:38:55Z mange: la_zaifir: I assume this is what they're using: https://github.com/buntine/Simply-Scheme-Exercises
2019-11-05T00:39:03Z Jalepeno_X: It's using the #simply-scheme package
2019-11-05T00:39:09Z Jalepeno_X: yes that's what I'musing mange
2019-11-05T00:39:10Z mange: "To get this augmentation working correctly in Dr. Scheme, you must choose "Pretty Big" from the languages menu and then install the extensions via the REPL: (require (planet dyoo/simply-scheme:1:2/simply-scheme))"
2019-11-05T00:39:15Z Jalepeno_X: what I'm using mange
2019-11-05T00:39:38Z mange: Have you been trying to solve the problems youself before looking at the answers?
2019-11-05T00:40:01Z la_zaifir: mange: Ah, ok.
2019-11-05T00:41:35Z Jalepeno_X: I try to but I don't get very far.
2019-11-05T00:43:06Z mange: How have you been trying? Have you been writing code and seeing what happens?
2019-11-05T00:43:10Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: Maybe try something easier.
2019-11-05T00:43:51Z Jalepeno_X: I try to write the code but I get stuck pretty quickly, I can usually get part of the answer correctly on my own.
2019-11-05T00:44:40Z Jalepeno_X: I find that reverse engineering the correct answer helps me understand the program's way of thinking.
2019-11-05T00:45:23Z Jalepeno_X: From what I understand "Simply Scheme" is the easiest intro to scheme.
2019-11-05T00:45:40Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: I prefer The Little Schemer, but both are good.
2019-11-05T00:47:16Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: A good exercise, then, would be to take the solution above and write it without every.
2019-11-05T00:47:19Z mange: Jalepeno_X: Like most languages, it's harder to learn to "speak" scheme than it is to read it. I would really recommend working at it and asking for help to come up with your own solutions, rather than reverse engineering.
2019-11-05T00:47:26Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: i.e. with explicit recursion.
2019-11-05T00:48:24Z Jalepeno_X: Okay I'll try that mange.
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2019-11-05T00:50:48Z Jalepeno_X: Should I start from the beginning of the book mange?  I feel like I never really come close to coming up with a solution completely on my own.
2019-11-05T00:51:43Z mange: I'm not familiar with the book, but starting at the beginning sounds sensible to me.
2019-11-05T00:54:02Z Jalepeno_X: Posting 1113819
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2019-11-05T00:54:47Z Jalepeno_X: I mean I already started at the beginning and got this far.  I'm saying if I'm not really coming up with solutions should I just start over?
2019-11-05T00:55:13Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: Probably.
2019-11-05T00:55:45Z mange: It should be easy, right? If you've actually learned from your reverse engineering then you should be able to come up with the solutions easily. If you haven't, then you'll learn something by struggling through it. :)
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2019-11-05T01:07:17Z Jalepeno_X: yeah I guess you're right.
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2019-11-05T16:05:28Z la_zaifir: So I have a function to generate the n-ary cartesian product of the argument lists: https://paste.debian.net/1114078/  I would like to generate this product lazily.  Unfortunately, I'm using a right fold, which is hard to stream-ify.  Any thoughts?
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2019-11-05T16:18:37Z gwatt: why do you want it lazily?
2019-11-05T16:21:00Z la_zaifir: Well, it's the product of an arbitrary number of lists containing an arbitrary number of elements.
2019-11-05T16:21:26Z la_zaifir: And I may only want the first n product lists.  This is for a list-of-successes scenario.
2019-11-05T16:22:29Z Jalepeno_X: Can you define a procedure with just one lambda?  That seems counter intuitive to me.  I thought lambda was just supposed to be a helper function.
2019-11-05T16:22:44Z la_zaifir: lambda isn't a function.
2019-11-05T16:23:07Z Jalepeno_X: https://paste.debian.net/1114090/
2019-11-05T16:23:08Z pjb: la_zaifir: why do you want it at all?  What's the point of computing something, if you don't want to compute it entirely?
2019-11-05T16:23:20Z la_zaifir: pjb: That's not helpful.
2019-11-05T16:24:31Z z0d: pjb: you can lazy evaluate the sum of all integers
2019-11-05T16:24:43Z pjb: Don't compute the cartesian product, since that's not what you want!  Compute what you want, just one instance.
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2019-11-05T16:25:40Z amz3: idk how to compute lazily the cartesian product.
2019-11-05T16:25:48Z amz3: maybe using call/cc?
2019-11-05T16:26:10Z amz3: I already tried, but I did not succeed.
2019-11-05T16:26:17Z pjb: amz3: once I implemented it using objects.
2019-11-05T16:26:31Z la_zaifir: pjb: I am generating a sequence of values constructed from all the possible combinations of the elements of a set of lists.  I don't know _a priori_ which combinations will produce good results.
2019-11-05T16:27:04Z la_zaifir: Re-writing using SRFI 158 generators seems like it might be promising.
2019-11-05T16:27:12Z pjb: Or using backtracking.
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2019-11-05T16:27:22Z la_zaifir: Backtracking is what I'm trying to avoid.
2019-11-05T16:27:41Z amz3: yeah sounds like what i have done for srfi-168, what I knew is some property over the good combinations, asked the question on stackoverflow and someone gave me the algorithm (that avoids computing all combinations)
2019-11-05T16:27:46Z la_zaifir: c.f. Wadler, "Replacing Failure By A List Of Successes"
2019-11-05T16:28:30Z la_zaifir: amz3: Interesting, link?
2019-11-05T16:29:02Z jcowan: Generators (SRFI 158), lazy lists (SRFI 127), or streams (SRFI 14) in order of increasing flexibility and increasing cost.
2019-11-05T16:29:50Z jcowan: s/14/41
2019-11-05T16:30:33Z la_zaifir: Yeah, I'm using lseq at the moment.  But there's still this exponentially-exploding cartesian input list at the head of the pipeline.
2019-11-05T16:30:42Z la_zaifir: s/lseq/lseqs/
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2019-11-05T16:41:55Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: What's that paste about?
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2019-11-05T16:54:57Z Jalepeno_X: @la_zaifir
2019-11-05T16:55:00Z Jalepeno_X: I had a question
2019-11-05T16:56:11Z amz3: la_zaifir: https://math.stackexchange.com/q/3146568/23663
2019-11-05T16:58:51Z Jalepeno_X: I don't get how "((compose sqrt abs) -25)" works.  I thought when you defined a procedure that the argument went into the brackets with your procedure like (square 7)
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2019-11-05T17:00:22Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: You're applying a procedure there, not defining one.  What is the value of (compose sqrt abs)?
2019-11-05T17:00:26Z la_zaifir: amz3: ty
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2019-11-05T17:01:34Z Jalepeno_X: are you applying the lambda?
2019-11-05T17:02:32Z Jalepeno_X: Is it " (lambda (x) (f (g x))))"?
2019-11-05T17:02:54Z la_zaifir: That's a representation of the value, yes.
2019-11-05T17:03:47Z la_zaifir: The value is that procedure of one argument x that applies f to g of x.
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2019-11-05T17:04:35Z la_zaifir: So ((compose sqrt abs) -25) evaluates to (#<procedure> -25), which is an application.
2019-11-05T17:11:59Z jcowan thinks casually about a SRFI for defines that handles things like that
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2019-11-05T17:13:37Z jcowan: (define ((foo x y) z) . body) => (define foo (lambda (x y) (lambda (z) . body)))
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2019-11-05T17:47:07Z Jalepeno_X: "r> So ((compose sqrt abs) -25) evaluates to (#<procedure> -25), which is an application."
2019-11-05T17:47:17Z Jalepeno_X: " So ((compose sqrt abs) -25) evaluates to (#<procedure> -25), which is an application."
2019-11-05T17:51:11Z belmarca: jcowan something like http://paste.debian.net/1114111/ ?
2019-11-05T17:51:23Z Jalepeno_X: I kinda don't get how the -25 inserts itself into the x of the lambda.
2019-11-05T17:52:40Z belmarca: Jalepeno_X if (compose sqrt abs) returns a unary proc, that is how you call it
2019-11-05T17:53:40Z belmarca: do (define sqrt-abs (compose sqrt abs)) and pp that
2019-11-05T17:58:32Z Jalepeno_X: what's "unary" short for?
2019-11-05T17:58:41Z pinoaffe: Jalepeno_X: (define (f x) (+ x x)) (f 5) is equivalent to (define f (lambda (x) (+ x x))) (f 5) is nearly equivalent to ((lambda (x) (+ x x)) 5)
2019-11-05T17:58:48Z Jalepeno_X: and what's "pp" short for?
2019-11-05T17:58:57Z belmarca: unary refers to the arity of the procedure
2019-11-05T17:58:58Z belmarca: 1 argument
2019-11-05T17:58:59Z pinoaffe: unary is not short for anything, a unary procedure is a procedure taking one argument
2019-11-05T17:59:18Z Jalepeno_X: oh
2019-11-05T17:59:19Z belmarca: pp = pretty print
2019-11-05T17:59:23Z aeth: Jalepeno_X: unary: -5, binary 4 - 5. or in Scheme, (- 5) and (- 4 5) and in that case - has a different meaning unary vs. binary
2019-11-05T17:59:31Z belmarca: I use gambit, available by default
2019-11-05T17:59:37Z Jalepeno_X: oh i see
2019-11-05T18:00:15Z Jalepeno_X: thank you belmarca, I'm trying to do the exercises in simply scheme though so using something they don't use would probably confuse me.
2019-11-05T18:00:23Z belmarca: the snippet I pasted is actually in gerbil but it's just sugar on top of syntax-rules
2019-11-05T18:00:42Z aeth: Jalepeno_X: ((compose sqrt abs) -25) is the same as (compose(sqrt, abs))(-25) or however such a language would deal with it... maybe this? compose(sqrt, abs)(-25)
2019-11-05T18:00:52Z aeth: Jalepeno_X: s-expressions are imo a lot less confusing than the typical function notation here
2019-11-05T18:01:20Z belmarca: aeth don't confuse him 😆
2019-11-05T18:01:54Z belmarca: if ((compose sqrt abs) -25) is not clear I think it just means you need to think about it more
2019-11-05T18:02:04Z belmarca: it's nothing special
2019-11-05T18:02:24Z Jalepeno_X: yeah, I'm trying to re read some of the earlier chapters.
2019-11-05T18:04:17Z belmarca: maybe look at how compose is defined
2019-11-05T18:05:33Z Jalepeno_X: ok
2019-11-05T18:05:38Z Jalepeno_X: let me do that
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2019-11-05T20:43:42Z nisstyre: is the order of the arguments tripping you up?
2019-11-05T20:43:48Z nisstyre: it goes backwards from what you might expect
2019-11-05T20:44:16Z nisstyre: (compose f g) = (f (g x)) not (g (f x))
2019-11-05T20:45:24Z nisstyre: (being really loose with my definition there)
2019-11-05T20:46:20Z vyzo: it follows the mathematical composition operator
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2019-11-05T20:47:57Z amz3: TIL
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2019-11-05T20:50:33Z la_zaifir: Swapping the arguments might make it clearer.
2019-11-05T20:50:52Z amz3: that is the thread macro
2019-11-05T20:51:02Z amz3: ->
2019-11-05T20:51:23Z amz3: not sure why compose is not in r7rs small
2019-11-05T20:51:29Z amz3: or the thread macro
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2019-11-05T21:07:26Z pinoaffe: la_zaifir: or more confusing for those familiar with the composition operator :)
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2019-11-05T21:07:56Z Jalepeno_X: thankyou nisstyre, what was tripping me up is the procedure fed into another procedure.  I think I get the concept theorically, but in practice, how the number -26 wound in in the lambda expression is kind of confusing.
2019-11-05T21:08:21Z Jalepeno_X: I'm rereading Chapter 3 of "Simply Scheme" to understand better.
2019-11-05T21:09:17Z nisstyre: Jalepeno_X: in math notation they use a dot character, like 'f . g' is defined as the function that is the composition of f and g
2019-11-05T21:11:55Z la_zaifir: pinoaffe: No, just renaming.  We usually expect to see g . f, not vice-versa.
2019-11-05T21:12:20Z la_zaifir: nisstyre: ∘  :)
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2019-11-05T21:13:33Z nisstyre: yeah, I'm too lazy to copy the unicode
2019-11-05T21:14:30Z nisstyre: in some languages they have |>, which is the the opposite order
2019-11-05T21:14:47Z nisstyre: you could define the same in scheme, but no infix notation makes it ugly
2019-11-05T21:15:23Z la_zaifir: A recent category theory book I'm reading uses a white semicolon (no Unicode character yet, AFAIK) for left-then-right composition.  Quite a nice idea, actually.
2019-11-05T21:15:23Z nisstyre: well actually I guess you couldn't since |>'s not a valid identifier
2019-11-05T21:16:09Z pinoaffe: la_zaifir: I think I've seen f . g at least as often as g . f
2019-11-05T21:16:20Z la_zaifir shrugs.
2019-11-05T21:18:12Z belmarca: nisstyre: you can see example implementations of these here https://github.com/fare/gerbil-utils/blob/743b6c926e922dbb88fac0b4aecf8cf6dac6011d/utils/base.ss#L76
2019-11-05T21:19:19Z belmarca: Jalepeno_X do you mean how the actual implementation does it?
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2019-11-05T21:25:51Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: Do you know how function application works?
2019-11-05T21:26:10Z Jalepeno_X: I thought I did.
2019-11-05T21:26:27Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: What is the value of ((lambda (x) x) -25)
2019-11-05T21:26:44Z Jalepeno_X: It takes an expression and produces another expression.  It should always give the same value for the same given expressions.
2019-11-05T21:27:17Z la_zaifir: OK, so what is it?
2019-11-05T21:27:49Z Jalepeno_X: -25?
2019-11-05T21:28:00Z la_zaifir: Right.  Now how did you do that?
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2019-11-05T21:29:34Z Jalepeno_X: in (lambda (x) x) -25) the x in (x) is like a placeholder definition.  the the following x "(lambda (x) x) is the real place holder
2019-11-05T21:29:45Z Jalepeno_X: then I'm not sure how x becomes -25
2019-11-05T21:31:29Z Jalepeno_X: does lambda kinda work like define.  I guess I don't understand why -25 is outside of the lambda bracket.
2019-11-05T21:31:30Z la_zaifir: In (lambda (x) x), `(x)' is the list of formal parameters.  It's not a definition.  When (lambda (x) x) is applied to -25, we get back the body of the lambda expression (here just x) evaluated in a context in which the name x is associated with -25.
2019-11-05T21:32:41Z la_zaifir: -25 is the argument (actual parameter).  Applying the lambda expression binds the formal parameter x to the corresponding argument, -25.
2019-11-05T21:33:15Z la_zaifir: Then it's just a matter of determining the value of an expression.  All you're doing is binding names to things.
2019-11-05T21:35:39Z Jalepeno_X: Ohhhhhh I think I get it now.
2019-11-05T21:36:00Z Jalepeno_X: Man all those brackets make it confusing though, and the fact that lambda is kind of a placeholder :P
2019-11-05T21:36:55Z la_zaifir: Um, sort of.
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2019-11-05T21:40:18Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: You might think on the `semantics' part of the lambda spec:  https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.1.4
2019-11-05T21:40:21Z la_zaifir: bbiab
2019-11-05T21:45:01Z Jalepeno_X: thank you la_azifir, I'll read what you recommended.
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2019-11-05T22:37:03Z Jalepeno_X: hello
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2019-11-05T22:42:46Z Jalepeno_X: thank you very much la_zaifir, the link to the synthax of scheme was really helpful, I feel like I understand now!
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2019-11-05T22:47:39Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: Great!
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2019-11-05T23:35:38Z belmarca: parens not brackets 🤣
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2019-11-05T23:46:25Z la_zaifir: belmarca: You can thank the mathematicians for that annoying semantic merger. :)
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2019-11-06T09:40:47Z amz3: seems like it is not possible from a complexity / performance point of view to do full text search in a single thread
2019-11-06T09:40:49Z amz3: https://github.com/pat/sphinx/blob/master/src/searchd.cpp#L9692
2019-11-06T09:41:33Z amz3: so any way, one has to do some kind of map / reduce. helas.
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2019-11-06T12:06:20Z amoe: ~23,000 LOC in this file... o.O
2019-11-06T12:18:37Z mario-goulart: Impressive.
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2019-11-06T12:19:47Z f-a: someone fell asleep while pressing 'A'
2019-11-06T12:22:40Z mario-goulart: Lines with only brackets are worth a decent-sized file already:
2019-11-06T12:22:41Z mario-goulart: $ grep -E -- '^ *[\{\}] *$' searchd.cpp | wc -l
2019-11-06T12:22:41Z mario-goulart: 844
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2019-11-06T15:43:01Z la_zaifir: amz3: Re: lazy product, I found something interesting! https://dorchard.blog/2019/08/02/considering-the-order-of-results-when-computing-cartesian-product-short/
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2019-11-06T16:17:58Z Jalepeno_X: I'm back!
2019-11-06T16:21:23Z la_zaifir: Jalepeno_X: wb
2019-11-06T16:22:22Z f-a: the classified jalapeño
2019-11-06T16:25:41Z erkin: Just curious: Has there been any attempts to port syntax-rules to Common Lisp?
2019-11-06T16:28:15Z f-a: erkin: I believe the single namespace of scheme makes them more useful there
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2019-11-06T16:29:16Z f-a: erkin: I am not aware of any attempt, to answer your question
2019-11-06T16:29:23Z erkin: Actually
2019-11-06T16:29:37Z erkin: Any attempts to port to any other language at all?
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2019-11-06T16:33:37Z f-a: erkin: also I suspect that gensym, despite being more painful to use, does it
2019-11-06T16:34:24Z la_zaifir: More generally, what non-Scheme languages have hygienic macros?
2019-11-06T16:35:11Z la_zaifir: "Scala, Rust, Elixir, Julia, Dylan, and Nemerle", at least, says Wikipedia.
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2019-11-06T16:36:04Z erkin: I think most of them do some sort of syntax-rules.
2019-11-06T16:36:06Z erkin: err
2019-11-06T16:36:09Z erkin: procedural macros*
2019-11-06T16:40:50Z la_zaifir: Too bad the ML-family languages have mostly avoided it.  Hygienic macros are a beautiful thing.
2019-11-06T16:41:33Z f-a: Haskell has some form of templating which is nor hygienic nor close to a macro
2019-11-06T16:46:02Z la_zaifir: Yes.  It's dumb that a language that provides a useful syntactic abstraction like "do-notation" also fails to provide you with the tools to create abstractions like that.
2019-11-06T16:46:29Z f-a: he
2019-11-06T16:47:12Z f-a: I believe there is some fear of proliferation of ill thought syntax
2019-11-06T16:48:03Z la_zaifir: rudybot: Neat und tidy!
2019-11-06T16:48:03Z rudybot: la_zaifir: But writing a neat und tidy changelog is still better than rewriting history to be neat und tidy, and that seems to be the popular (if horrible) solution.
2019-11-06T16:48:47Z erkin: I haven't tried Template Haskell or Ocaml Macros yet.
2019-11-06T16:49:09Z erkin: No idea how they do metaprogramming. But from the sounds of it Haskell is using... type templates.
2019-11-06T16:49:24Z f-a: erkin: they can get out out (TH) of some tricky spots, but far from something complete
2019-11-06T16:49:35Z f-a: also it's not-so-good documented
2019-11-06T16:49:52Z f-a: and frankly feels unhaskelly, so it's seen as a necessary evil
2019-11-06T16:50:22Z erkin: Yeah, people always say that Haskell dialects are unhaskelly.
2019-11-06T16:50:27Z erkin: O'Haskell too.
2019-11-06T16:50:33Z f-a: never toyed with that
2019-11-06T16:51:42Z f-a: but yeah community is more conservative
2019-11-06T16:52:07Z f-a: as strong types and functions are seen as the main way to go (and have their advantages)
2019-11-06T16:52:20Z la_zaifir: And it's a GHC extension, right?  AFAIK Haskell 2010 says nothing about templates.
2019-11-06T16:52:42Z erkin: Having a conservative community helps to keep the ecosystem united, to be fair.
2019-11-06T16:52:55Z f-a: la_zaifir: yeah, ghc extension
2019-11-06T16:53:17Z erkin: Lisp hackers seem to have the opposite approach, hence the joke "two Schemers walk into a room and come out with three implementations."
2019-11-06T16:53:36Z la_zaifir: I'd rather have too many implementations than too few.
2019-11-06T16:54:03Z erkin: Despite this, Haskell seems to be losing traction (judging by GitHub stats only).
2019-11-06T16:54:08Z la_zaifir: GHC's a work of art, but it's huge and the tools coupled with it (cabal, I'm looking at you) are not so well designed.
2019-11-06T16:54:31Z f-a: cabal got better with new- commands
2019-11-06T16:54:38Z f-a: quite a nice experience to use now
2019-11-06T16:54:43Z f-a: I sadly agree with ghc
2019-11-06T16:54:59Z erkin: Is GHC the only extant Haskell implementation as of today?
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2019-11-06T16:55:11Z f-a: there is a js one
2019-11-06T16:55:17Z f-a: uhhhh, more than one
2019-11-06T16:55:19Z erkin: I remember using Hugs back in high school.
2019-11-06T16:55:25Z f-a: but yeah, ghc has- yeah there was hugs
2019-11-06T16:55:32Z f-a: but as now, 99% is ghc
2019-11-06T16:56:23Z la_zaifir: erkin: UHC, but I don't think that sees much development anymore.  It's a GHC monoculture.
2019-11-06T16:56:52Z erkin: I suppose too much conservatism is worse for the ecosystem.
2019-11-06T16:57:20Z erkin: Let a hundred flowers bloom.
2019-11-06T16:59:13Z la_zaifir: I'm not sure the Haskell community is conservative.  Maybe it's that they seek improvement in a small number of directions.
2019-11-06T16:59:59Z la_zaifir: Macros?  Nope, unclean!  Continuations?  Yes, but very naughty!
2019-11-06T16:59:59Z f-a: and standard lagging behing
2019-11-06T17:00:03Z f-a: *behind
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2019-11-06T17:00:14Z erkin: That's kinda expected, honestly.
2019-11-06T17:00:30Z erkin: It's like, if GCC were the only C compiler, the C standard would just try to keep up with it every few years.
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2019-11-06T17:02:45Z la_zaifir: It's also possible that the compiler-extension situation with GHC is a bad way to expand a language.  There's no way to package things like existential quantification as libraries.
2019-11-06T17:03:19Z la_zaifir: Which is precisely why GCC is the hairball it is--lots of magic extensions to the C language.
2019-11-06T17:04:29Z la_zaifir: c.f. Great Quux on "Growing a Language" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0
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2019-11-06T17:41:59Z jcowan: Pure also has syntax-rules style macros.  Since all functions in Pure are written in rules style, the only visible difference between a function definition and a macro definition is the keyword at the beginning.
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2019-11-06T17:48:07Z erkin: Ooh neat
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2019-11-06T19:58:48Z dieggsy: can you guys suggest any pure scheme database implementations? i need something sweet and simple for a small cli program, and i don't want to depend on actual relational databases. I found this: https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ssch25/database.html but am wondering if there's something better out there
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2019-11-06T20:36:15Z la_zaifir: dieggsy: Probably not quite what you're looking for, but you might take a look at SRFIs 167 and 168, which amz3 has been devoting a bunch of time to.  https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-167/srfi-167.html  https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-168/srfi-168.html
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2019-11-06T21:08:25Z wasamasa: dieggsy: to play devil's advocate, someone on #chicken once told me sqlite is worth using just for the durability guarantees
2019-11-06T21:12:10Z gnomon: wasamasa, strongly seconded, sqlite3 is the knees of the bees
2019-11-06T21:13:06Z gnomon: Dan Luu also said "if you're using a filesystem and you need durability, don't bother trying to get that out of the filesystem itself, just run sqlite3 on top of whatever you've got": https://danluu.com/deconstruct-files/
2019-11-06T21:15:06Z wasamasa: relational data storage and queries are a bonus
2019-11-06T21:15:13Z gnomon: 'zactly
2019-11-06T21:15:37Z gnomon: https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html - " SQLite does not compete with client/server databases. SQLite competes with fopen(). "
2019-11-06T21:15:50Z wasamasa: sure, it's some work to figure out how your data should look like, but once you've done that the rest is easy
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2019-11-06T21:59:15Z amz3: dieggsy: sqlite or sqlite lsm extension
2019-11-06T21:59:28Z amz3: dieggsy: sqlite or sqlite lsm extension with srfi 167.
2019-11-06T21:59:34Z amz3: dieggsy: what scheme are you using?
2019-11-06T22:07:45Z dieggsy: amz3: chicken. but I was looking for something not dependent on anything external. a database-like thing, but based on scheme objects kinda
2019-11-06T22:08:51Z amz3: dieggsy: you can read and write scm values with (call-with-output-file "/path/to/filname" (lambda (port) (write '((a . b) (c . d)))))
2019-11-06T22:10:24Z dieggsy: amz3 right, I know as much. i was more interested in the actual representation and access of the data like. how might I do it so it's a lot like a database, with easy write and access and query and such
2019-11-06T22:11:14Z dieggsy: should I use alists? vectors? but then how to handle field names? etc.
2019-11-06T22:11:42Z amz3: I would say srfi-167 with a few fixups
2019-11-06T22:11:53Z amz3: err, srfi-168.
2019-11-06T22:12:04Z amz3: both :)
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2019-11-06T23:31:27Z amz3: la_zaifir: do you know https://oeis.org/?
2019-11-06T23:31:54Z amz3: you can type the first few number of serie and then it show referenced papers about it.
2019-11-06T23:34:44Z la_zaifir: amz3: Oh yes :)
2019-11-06T23:35:49Z la_zaifir: amz3: I think I need more combinatorics to attack the n-ary cartesian product problem.  The math is unfortunately beyond me right now.
2019-11-06T23:36:25Z amz3: combinatoric is very big in terms of complexity (number of cases etc...)
2019-11-06T23:37:02Z amz3: I don't remember correctly but gray code have something to do to help
2019-11-06T23:38:55Z amz3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code
2019-11-06T23:41:01Z amz3: IIRC there is a bijection between natural numbers and permutations and you can compute all permutation by computing the numbers step by step
2019-11-06T23:41:30Z amz3: using arithmetique and convert back and forth between number and permutation
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2019-11-07T03:59:33Z xall: i started reading Little Schemer and don't have much background with LISP. there are a few questions asking whether the thing is an s-expression: https://i.imgur.com/cY2AoMK.png
2019-11-07T03:59:53Z xall: i'm wondering is there anything that isn't an s-expression? when would the answer to that question be no?
2019-11-07T04:00:40Z f-a: xall: I suppose, #t and #f etc
2019-11-07T04:01:41Z xall: f-a: thanks. i thought all atoms are s-expression. so #t, #f aren't atoms?
2019-11-07T04:02:26Z f-a: doh, you are right
2019-11-07T04:03:11Z xall: maybe this isn't a question worth getting tripped up on
2019-11-07T04:03:19Z mange: What about just )?
2019-11-07T04:03:25Z xall: i just started the book and realized i didn't know what atoms or s-expressions are
2019-11-07T04:03:57Z f-a: mange: good answer
2019-11-07T04:04:54Z xall: when i looked them up, it sounded like s-expressions seem to be everything and atoms are things that aren't lists or null
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2019-11-07T04:32:24Z X-Scale: I wonder if there's some scheme distribution that allows gcd and lcm between rationals. Mathematica and WolframAlpha seem to allow them -> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/151081/gcd-of-rationals
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2019-11-07T09:23:33Z amz3: oh! I forgot okvs->alist and alist->okvs in srfi-167 :/
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2019-11-07T20:23:13Z la_zaifir: Say I have some fixed data indexed by short (length < 10) strings.  Assuming I'm not going to hash them, is it worth the symbol-table overhead to convert the key-strings to symbols and thus avoid string comparisons?
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2019-11-07T20:36:33Z pjb: la_zaifir: performance is implementation dependent. Benchmark it, and see if it's worth it on your implementation on your target.  For better results, benchmark it dynamically, and dispatch to different algorithms on different implementations and targets.
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2019-11-07T20:41:09Z la_zaifir: pjb: Of course.
2019-11-07T20:43:55Z la_zaifir: This is yak-shaving and the data set is small, so strings are fine.  But the question of symbol vs. string efficiency with tables is still intriguing.
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2019-11-08T02:04:44Z Riastradh: la_zaifir: Symbols are not good as a data structure because they tend not to be garbage-collected.
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2019-11-08T03:23:42Z jcowan: Riastradh: I don't think that's generally true across Scheme implementations any more, as long as you don't keep their namestrings around.
2019-11-08T03:23:58Z jcowan: It may still be true in some implementations.
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2019-11-08T06:20:29Z mdhughes: If they were just 8 ASCII chars, you could convert them to a 64-bit integer and index on that.
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2019-11-08T21:40:52Z ChoHag: What testing tools are there for scheme libraries?
2019-11-08T21:41:18Z ChoHag: I've hacked together something which outputs TAP and I'm wondering whether to keep it, improve it or replace it.
2019-11-08T21:42:19Z erkin: Testing tools?
2019-11-08T21:43:17Z erkin: Like SRFI-64?
2019-11-08T21:43:19Z ChoHag: Libraries which are designed to exercise components of code in isolation for the purpose of testing it.
2019-11-08T21:45:02Z erkin: There's this if you want TAP but I've never used it. https://github.com/frejanordsiek/unit-test-tap
2019-11-08T21:45:07Z ChoHag: Yeah but something that's good.
2019-11-08T21:45:22Z erkin: IIRC Guile had ggspec but I don't know if that's still active.
2019-11-08T21:50:45Z ChoHag: On a tangent but related, how can I lay out the source directory so that I can load the same library in different interpreters?
2019-11-08T21:51:07Z ChoHag: eg. in chibi I can say (load (foo)) but in chicken I have to use (include "foo.scm").
2019-11-08T21:51:18Z ChoHag: With a bunch of cond-expands I'm sure I shouldn't need.
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2019-11-08T22:02:57Z erkin: Why not use (include "foo.scm") with both?
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2019-11-08T22:12:35Z ChoHag: I'd like to make it more portable, not less.
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2019-11-09T19:10:06Z amz3: SRFI-167 (okvs) and SRFI-168 (nstore) finalized...
2019-11-09T19:10:13Z amz3 does victory dance
2019-11-09T19:10:16Z amz3: :)
2019-11-09T19:10:32Z dwdv_: Congrats!
2019-11-09T19:11:06Z amz3: ty!
2019-11-09T19:11:31Z f-a: clappp
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2019-11-09T19:36:45Z amz3: :)
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2019-11-10T07:47:46Z dieggsy: here's a relatively simple replace! function using srfi-1's member: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2019-11-10T02-45-26 is there a simple functional equivalent that doesn't involve just looping through the whole list? i suppose 'member' itself has to loop over the whole list, so i guess my question is if there's a functional equivalent that can take advantage of r5rs or srfi-1 procedures without reinventing the wheel
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2019-11-10T07:48:33Z dieggsy: (also, is there already a procedure like this that i just missed in srfi-1 or another... heh)
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2019-11-10T07:48:52Z dieggsy: .....it also fails if a isn't in the list i just realized. whatever, details lol
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2019-11-10T09:42:23Z TLSer: hey there, currently reading the little schemer and wanna try out my implementations on guile, however I always get "ERROR: Wrong type to apply (a b c)".
2019-11-10T09:42:40Z TLSer: https://paste.sh/TRCEsuMq#shMSUk7XWk-RYjaHQX66owRy
2019-11-10T09:50:48Z TLSer: ok, so there was a syntax error on line #5, it should be
2019-11-10T09:50:48Z TLSer: "(lat?  (cdr lat))" instead of "(lat? (cdr (lat))"
2019-11-10T10:14:47Z pjb: Try: (lat? 42) ; what do you get?
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2019-11-10T11:13:50Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. What do you use instead of assert()?
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2019-11-10T11:19:14Z amz3: ArthurStrong: there is assume in srfi 145
2019-11-10T11:19:24Z ArthurStrong: amz3: thanks
2019-11-10T11:19:32Z amz3: ArthurStrong: what is your favorite scheme?
2019-11-10T11:19:45Z ArthurStrong: amz3: currently Racket
2019-11-10T11:20:04Z amz3: ArthurStrong: then idk, probably there is a assert macro in racket.
2019-11-10T11:20:46Z amz3: ArthurStrong: read the implementation of srfi 145, it is straightforward, you can adapt it to racket :)
2019-11-10T11:21:07Z ArthurStrong: amz3: thanks
2019-11-10T11:21:27Z amz3: yw
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2019-11-10T15:58:42Z jcowan: ArthurStrong: "Assume" is different from "assert".  Assert throws an error when the value is false.  If the value of assume is false, the behavior is undefined: an error may be thrown, but it also lets a smart compiler assume (hence the name) that the condition is true after that.
2019-11-10T15:59:44Z jcowan: So (define x 5) (assert (pair? x)) will throw an exception, but (assume (pair? x)) lets the system use unsafe forms of car and cdr (if it has any) on x.
2019-11-10T16:01:31Z vyzo: there is no reason why assert can't do that same
2019-11-10T16:02:09Z vyzo: also, the srfi implementation of assume is indistinguishable from assert
2019-11-10T16:08:16Z pinoaffe: dieggsy: do you want to replace just the first or all occurences of a in lst?
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2019-11-10T16:19:20Z jcowan: vyzo: The only current specification of assert is the one in R6RS, which indeed cannot do that: the behavior of (assert #f) is to raise a condition object of type &assert.
2019-11-10T16:19:46Z jcowan: whereas the behavior of (assume #f) per the SRFI is to make demons fly out of your nose.
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2019-11-10T16:48:51Z dieggsy: pinoaffe: lol, good point. let's say just the first
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2019-11-10T17:25:44Z pinoaffe: dieggsy: in that case I'd do pretty much what you propose, but guarded by a when so as not to fail when the list does not contain a, but I'm a beginning schemer so there might very well be a readymade / better solution
2019-11-10T17:27:26Z pinoaffe: aka (define (replace! lst a b #!optional (= equal?)) (let ((tail (member a lst =))) (when tail (set-car! tail b))))
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2019-11-10T17:34:13Z dieggsy: pinoaffe: oh, sure. i used an and-let* in the 'actual' version to guard against that. my question was more regarding a functional version of it, i.e. one that does not modify the original list, using built-in srfi-1 or r5rs procedures
2019-11-10T17:34:24Z dieggsy: but i think i just have to loop over it in any case
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2019-11-10T18:04:54Z jcowan: vyzo: So you can implement assume by assert, or by values, or by (if x #t (let loop () (loop)), or by (if x #t (enter-debugger)).
2019-11-10T18:05:48Z jcowan: dieggsy: IIUC, SRFI 1 remove is what you want
2019-11-10T18:06:00Z jcowan: return a list without everything that satisfies a predicate
2019-11-10T18:07:40Z ArthurStrong: jcowan: thanks
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2019-11-10T18:32:55Z dieggsy: jcowan: sort of - but i can't actually replace those things (keeping list position) with remove
2019-11-10T18:33:27Z dieggsy: huh, i guess map is actually what i want huh
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2019-11-10T18:33:44Z dieggsy: map, check with predicate, return thing modified if matches, return thing itself otherwise
2019-11-10T18:34:20Z dieggsy: lol, now i feel stupid that i can just do it with map
2019-11-10T18:34:56Z dieggsy: it'll do more than necessary work for 'only the first' i suppose
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2019-11-10T19:15:52Z amz3: TIL assume is not assert.
2019-11-10T19:16:59Z amz3: completly unrelated, I think if re-discovered a way to do approximate string matching over a bigger than memory dataset using simhash + merkel-tree + okvs...  https://hyper.dev/blog/fuzzbuzz.html
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2019-11-10T19:45:50Z pinoaffe: dieggsy: that's why I asked whether you wanted all replaced, cuz in that case map would make the most sense :)
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2019-11-10T20:31:06Z Riastradh: jcowan: The distinction you made between `assert' and `assume' does not reflect widespread practice in other languages like C and Python, where assert means what you just called assume.
2019-11-10T20:31:34Z Riastradh: It sounds like maybe R6RS foolishly abused the name `assert'.
2019-11-10T20:39:11Z jcowan: It's pretty much a distinction without a difference in R6RS, because there is very little undefined behavior there.
2019-11-10T20:39:33Z jcowan: the phrase "is an error" occurs only once and not in its classical R2RS+ meaning.
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2019-11-11T02:37:07Z lockywolf__: Not entirely scheme, but sicp-related, and thus scheme-related: https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/515909/how-to-make-this-tikz-picture-more-idiomatic-environment-diagram
2019-11-11T02:37:07Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/SAfSjqa3UL
2019-11-11T02:39:44Z lockywolf__: If anyone has suggestions on how to improve the typesetting, it would be nice.
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2019-11-11T08:02:11Z pinoaffe: lockywolf_: you don't like the version in https://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.037/sicp.pdf ?
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2019-11-11T08:07:06Z pinoaffe: https://filebin.net/61q94rmxokiniq1p/2019-11-11-090330_1553x808_scrot.png?t=gzk4kja7 < works just fine on a dark background
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2019-11-11T08:17:28Z lockywolf_: pinoaffe, it's great, but where is the source?
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2019-11-11T08:27:39Z pinoaffe: lockywolf_: I think it should be in here somewhere : https://github.com/sarabander/sicp
2019-11-11T08:28:44Z pinoaffe: wait no, they just made svgs
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2019-11-11T08:58:01Z lockywolf_: exactly
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2019-11-11T14:29:05Z lockywolf_: What is the difference between an "environment" and a "frame" in schem parlance?
2019-11-11T14:30:47Z lockywolf_: Both seem to be key-value dictionaries.
2019-11-11T14:31:14Z LeoNerd: Perhaps two terms that are used interchangably for the same concept?
2019-11-11T14:32:57Z lockywolf_: A procedure object is applied to a set of arguments by constructing a frame, binding the formal parameters of the procedure to the arguments of the call, and then evaluating the body of the procedure in the context of the new environment constructed. The new frame has as its enclosing environment the environment part of the procedure object being applied.
2019-11-11T14:34:57Z farnerup: Isn't a "frame" each level in a call stack?
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2019-11-11T14:36:05Z farnerup: Whereas "environment" is all the bound variables that a procedure can see?
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2019-11-11T14:41:28Z lockywolf__: Makes sense.
2019-11-11T14:42:29Z lockywolf__: Although it makes me wonder why would a procedure need to see anything beyond it's own frame. I guess if functions and variables are not disjoint this is inevitable.
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2019-11-11T14:45:36Z amz3: in scheme, environment means lexical environement. My understanding is that in CL the environment contains all the variables of the current frames (that is dynamic scoping)
2019-11-11T14:46:29Z amz3: I don't remember about frame being mentioned in R7RS
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2019-11-11T14:46:44Z lockywolf__: I quoted SICP, not r7rs.
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2019-11-11T14:47:48Z lockywolf__: Lexical environment is a confusing thing for a non-schemer.
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2019-11-11T14:48:19Z amz3: "if functions and variables are not disjoint this is inevitable" I don't think so. I believe one can have dynamic scoping in a LISP-2.
2019-11-11T14:48:47Z lockywolf__: I have to constantly remind myself that the necessity to access parent frames is needed to access function definitions.
2019-11-11T14:49:06Z amz3: maybe lexical environment, is not a thing and I invented it. The thing lexical scope is an all-around default in most languages (except LISP-2 like CL)
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2019-11-11T14:50:27Z amz3: there was a discussion a few weeks or month ago about LISP-3 where everything can be inspected (IIRC)
2019-11-11T14:50:40Z lockywolf__: em... I feel an urge to disagree... let me check GCC
2019-11-11T14:51:12Z amz3: C is not lexically scoped, that is true.
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2019-11-11T14:53:33Z lockywolf__: you'd have functional environments and variable environments independently
2019-11-11T14:53:46Z gwatt: amz3: C is lexically scoped.
2019-11-11T14:53:59Z lockywolf__: gwatt, c doesn't allow nested functions at all
2019-11-11T14:54:15Z lockywolf__: I don't think that "scoping" applies here.
2019-11-11T14:54:30Z gwatt: lockywolf__: that's true, BUT, functions are not the only scoping mechanism
2019-11-11T14:55:16Z lockywolf__: that means that there is a problem with the definition of scoping
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2019-11-11T14:56:35Z lockywolf__: C doesn't even have symbols in runtime
2019-11-11T14:58:02Z gwatt: scheme does not either, necessarily. If you run eval inside of a function or let block eval won't know about the symbols around it that are not defined at top-level
2019-11-11T14:58:15Z gwatt: http://dpaste.com/3FBXGNX
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2019-11-11T15:05:39Z lockywolf_: well, eval is not often used
2019-11-11T15:05:54Z lockywolf_: whereas in C, every call is an eval
2019-11-11T15:06:15Z lockywolf_: am I right?
2019-11-11T15:08:13Z lockywolf_: an no matter how many times you assign a function address to a pointer variable, the environment will be still the same, regardless of where you eval this function pointer
2019-11-11T15:09:47Z lockywolf_: in c++ you have more options though
2019-11-11T15:09:50Z gwatt: I don't understand what you're saying with that. C doesn't have eval or the notion of a runtime environment.
2019-11-11T15:11:50Z lockywolf_: every function call in c is like an eval-type call in scheme, no?
2019-11-11T15:13:16Z gwatt: I think the function calls in C and scheme are analagous with or without eval
2019-11-11T15:13:37Z lockywolf_: well, obviously no
2019-11-11T15:15:21Z gwatt: Why not?
2019-11-11T15:16:08Z lockywolf_: because you're not getting environments in C besides the global one
2019-11-11T15:16:58Z gwatt: The same can be said of scheme. Unless you're calling eval and passing in an environment.
2019-11-11T15:17:09Z lockywolf_: no, that's not true
2019-11-11T15:17:43Z lockywolf_: A procedure object is applied to a set of arguments by constructing a frame, binding the formal parameters of the procedure to the arguments of the call, and then evaluating the body of the procedure in the context of the new environment constructed. The new frame has as its enclosing environment the environment part of the procedure object being applied.
2019-11-11T15:18:20Z lockywolf_: This "new environment constructed" needn't be the global one.
2019-11-11T15:18:30Z lockywolf_: Whereas in C it is always the global one.
2019-11-11T15:19:00Z lockywolf_: No matter how you make your function in compile-time or run-time, memcpy, or whatever.
2019-11-11T15:20:09Z lockywolf_: Sorry, needn't be "the global one plus arguments".
2019-11-11T15:21:58Z gwatt: C functions have parameters too. The definition of function calls that you described above also applies to C.
2019-11-11T15:22:44Z lockywolf_: except that you can only define a function in a global environment (compile-time)
2019-11-11T15:23:29Z gwatt: We're still talking about lexical scope, right?
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2019-11-11T15:26:56Z lockywolf_: we are discussing why scheme procedures are seeing way more than C procedures
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2019-11-11T16:03:31Z jcowan: CL is lexically scoped for all variables except global ones, and it is a Lisp-2.  Emacs (until very recently) was entirely dynamically scoped, and it's a Lisp-2 also.  The two sets of alternatives are orthogonal.
2019-11-11T16:03:56Z jcowan: Perl is a Perl-4, began as dynamically scoped entirely, and added lexical scope, thus replaying the history of Lisp.
2019-11-11T16:04:06Z jcowan: As all languages must do, it seems (says the smug Lisp weenie)
2019-11-11T16:04:21Z jcowan: s/=4/-2
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2019-11-11T16:06:44Z gwatt: jcowan: RE: CL, if you define a variable with setq it's lexically scoped but defparam and defvar are dynamically scoped, IIRC
2019-11-11T16:06:54Z LeoNerd: Perl 5 added lexically-scoped variables a couple of decades ago, but even lexically-scoped functions only turned up comparatively recently in 5.18
2019-11-11T16:08:15Z jcowan: gwatt: Right, although technically setq doesn't *define* anything, any more than set! does.  If you setq an unknown variable it's in the global scope (and the same is true for Schemes like Chicken that accept set! on unknown variables)
2019-11-11T16:10:13Z amz3: what about LISP-3 convo?
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2019-11-11T16:13:12Z gwatt: jcowan: but references to a variable introduced via setq are still lexical, not dynamic.
2019-11-11T16:14:38Z amz3: TIL CL is lexically scoped.
2019-11-11T16:14:55Z jcowan: gwatt: Yes, excellent point
2019-11-11T16:15:08Z jcowan: amz3: Technically CL has a lot more namespaces than two
2019-11-11T16:15:27Z jcowan: variables, functions, goto labels, block names, types, the list goes on
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2019-11-11T16:19:54Z jcowan: gwatt: No, actually it isn't.  Consider this program:
2019-11-11T16:20:04Z jcowan: (defun one () (setq foo 32))
2019-11-11T16:20:13Z jcowan: (defun two () (let ((foo 45)) (print foo) (three)))
2019-11-11T16:20:40Z jcowan: (defun three () foo))
2019-11-11T16:21:14Z jcowan: If you call one and then two, the REPL will print 45 and then 32.
2019-11-11T16:21:32Z gwatt: That is what I would expect from lexical scope
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2019-11-11T16:22:29Z jcowan: Yes, you're right.  Part of the problem is that you can't tell by looking if a let is lexical or dynamic (unlike ISLisp where you use dynamic-let and dynamic-ref
2019-11-11T16:22:31Z jcowan: )
2019-11-11T16:23:32Z gwatt: Yes, that's certainly true. fluid-let or parameterize are much clearer than a do-everything let
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2019-11-11T16:28:44Z jcowan: Parameters are first-class but no one ever seems to have created a use case for them to be first-class
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2019-11-11T16:33:28Z gwatt: that's not too surprising.
2019-11-11T16:40:38Z jcowan: Well, failures of imagination are never *surprising* exactly, but IWBNI someone had come up with one.
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2019-11-11T16:48:17Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: If you're drawing a distinction between `frame' and `environment', a frame is a single level of nesting, and an environment is the whole shebang.
2019-11-11T16:48:28Z Riastradh: That is, an environment is a nested stack of environments.
2019-11-11T16:48:29Z Riastradh: er
2019-11-11T16:48:31Z Riastradh: That is, an environment is a nested stack of frames.
2019-11-11T16:49:49Z gwatt: I think their utility comes from the fact that you're not passing them around explicitly like normal values. parameterizing current-*-port is nice, having to pass those values down through all levels of your program would be a pain.
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2019-11-11T17:26:15Z jcowan: gwatt: If you think about it, they are something like stacks, except that pushing and popping is tied to the dynamic scope of a let-parameterize.  The trouble with only using them as globals is that they are ... global.
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2019-11-11T17:48:19Z gwatt: jcowan: A problem with having locally scoped instances of parameters is e.g., if I have the global `current-output-port` and a local copy of it, let's call it `cop` I could parameterize both `current-output-port` and `cop` and not realize that's I'm setting the same parameter to two different values
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2019-11-11T19:07:16Z jcowan: gwatt: That's true, but there's no operation for copying a parameter anyway.
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2019-11-11T19:09:55Z gwatt: jcowan: am I misunderstanding what you mean by "first class"? I understand that term to mean that an object can be passed to functions, returned from functions, and the value stored in variables. With that definition I can copy parameters like so:
2019-11-11T19:10:37Z gwatt: (let ((local-param global-param)) some expressions here ...)
2019-11-11T19:11:11Z jcowan: Exactly. But you don't have a *copy* of it, just another reference to it.
2019-11-11T19:11:31Z gwatt: Yes, sorry. I meant a reference not a copy.
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2019-11-11T19:40:18Z Riastradh: a copy of a reference
2019-11-11T19:40:22Z Riastradh: the name of a copy of a reference
2019-11-11T19:40:27Z Riastradh: what the name of a copy of a reference is called
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2019-11-11T20:02:59Z jcowan: haddock's eyes
2019-11-11T20:03:42Z jcowan: Note however that the WKt's last statement can't be right: this is just another name.  The only way to end "The song really is..." is to sing it on the spot.
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2019-11-11T22:06:53Z anon987321: hi
2019-11-11T22:07:06Z anon987321: is there a way i can use parentheses as an actual symbol?
2019-11-11T22:07:28Z anon987321: trying to quote a parentheses character like '( will just make it try to quote a list
2019-11-11T22:07:36Z anon987321: and '\( will quote the \
2019-11-11T22:07:58Z anon987321: i'd like to quote a ( character so it evaluates to itself
2019-11-11T22:12:33Z amz3: anon987321: stay around and listen.
2019-11-11T22:14:56Z fizzie: If you want a *character* constant, that would be #\(. As for using it as a symbol, there's no standard way to quote it, but you can use (string->symbol "(") to create it, and some implementations might have a custom quoting method, like Chicken's |(|.
2019-11-11T22:16:33Z anon987321: oh thanks
2019-11-11T22:16:40Z anon987321: i'll try that out
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2019-11-11T22:19:57Z erkin: I thought |foo| was standard.
2019-11-11T22:20:17Z amz3: +1
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2019-11-11T22:27:05Z fizzie: I guess it might be, nowadays? It wasn't in R5RS, but it does seem to be in R7RS-small.
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2019-11-12T00:42:16Z jcowan: Vertical bars are standard in R7RS and CL but not in R6RS, which uses backslashes only.  In R7RS you can use backslashes only inside vertical bars.
2019-11-12T00:43:46Z jcowan: Racket, Gauche, MIT, Gambit, Chicken, Bigloo, Kawa, SISC, Chibi, Chez, Ikarus/Vicare, STklos, KSi, Rep, Oaklisp, Owl Lisp, Sagittarius all understand |...| syntax.
2019-11-12T00:44:53Z jcowan: Others either make it a syntax error or treat | as an ordinary identifier character, such that (eq? 'foo '|foo|) => #f
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2019-11-12T02:16:53Z lockywolf: Is there some consistent standard on how to draw environment diagrams?
2019-11-12T02:25:45Z lockywolf: There are a few pages on the net about this:
2019-11-12T02:25:46Z lockywolf: http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs61a/su10/resources/Joshua%20Cantrell%20Notes/8-EnvDiagrams.pdf
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2019-11-12T13:28:23Z safinaskar: there is a list with #t's and #f's in it. how to check that all they are #t's?
2019-11-12T13:33:20Z gwatt: safinaskar: (not (member #f list))
2019-11-12T13:34:08Z safinaskar: gwatt: thanks
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2019-11-12T14:18:28Z safinaskar: what is idiomatic way to check that all entities in a list are symbols? i can think of (not (member #f (map symbol? a))) , but i don't like this solution
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2019-11-12T15:02:22Z mdhughes: (every symbol? ls) from srfi-1
2019-11-12T15:02:48Z mdhughes: srfi-1 should be your first stop for any list-related tool, it won't have everything but it's a good start.
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2019-11-12T16:02:40Z jayemar: mdhughes my guile repl has no notion of 'every', am I missing something?
2019-11-12T16:03:16Z mdhughes: I haven't used guile, but probably has an (import srfi-1) or some such.
2019-11-12T16:07:47Z jayemar: ah yes, I needed to use use-modules to import it.  thanks!
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2019-11-12T20:31:03Z safinaskar: what is idiomatic way to check that all entities in a list are symbols? i can think of (not (member #f (map symbol? a))) , but i don't like this solution
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2019-11-12T20:33:10Z gnomon: safinaskar, personally I would reach for SRFI-1's "every"
2019-11-12T20:33:15Z gwatt: safinaskar: (every symbol? list) or (for-all symbol? list)
2019-11-12T20:33:26Z gwatt: every is in srfi-1 and r7rs, for-all is in r6rs
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2019-11-12T20:45:27Z safinaskar: gwatt: i was unable to find "every" in r7rs index. https://small.r7rs.org/attachment/r7rs.pdf
2019-11-12T20:51:49Z safinaskar: gnomon: gwatt: thanks
2019-11-12T20:58:36Z gnomon: safinaskar, you're welcome!
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2019-11-13T09:41:59Z Fare: Is this the right place to ask for help with a hygienic macro?
2019-11-13T09:50:45Z Fare: while implementing a prototype oo system, I tried to implement the equivalent of call-next-method, but I'm failing badly.
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2019-11-13T12:32:09Z jcowan: f8l: AFAIK, call-next-method cannot be implemented hygienically
2019-11-13T12:32:33Z jcowan: oops
2019-11-13T12:32:55Z jcowan: tab completion fail
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2019-11-13T16:30:01Z mdhughes: Amused. I just got done (well, first day, probably needs more work) writing my own OOP system. Because everyone should have their own incompatible objects.
2019-11-13T16:31:02Z ArthurStrong: mdhughes: true
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2019-11-13T16:49:42Z vyzo: mdhughes: did you try the class sealing in gerbil?
2019-11-13T16:49:54Z vyzo: it's compiler assisted and produces pretty fast method specializations
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2019-11-13T18:14:36Z mdhughes: I'm still stuck on chicken for sdl dependency. I did try the Gerbil class system, and it's why I'm moving future stuff to it.
2019-11-13T18:17:14Z mdhughes: My own system's 2 pages of code and however fast 1 vector-ref and 1 hash-table-ref are per class hierarchy. <shrug>
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2019-11-13T18:23:39Z oni-on-ion: i've personally gone to raylib from sdl
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2019-11-13T18:24:54Z mdhughes: I hide everything behind my own graphics interface, so I could just use OpenGL, but then I'd still need an audio API, and SDL's is better than most. Annoyingly, Chicken doesn't expose it, so I have to FFI that.
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2019-11-13T18:39:51Z wasamasa: Have you considered to contribute an egg?
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2019-11-13T18:40:04Z wasamasa: There's at least two more people who started doing the same thing
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2019-11-13T18:57:13Z mdhughes: Yeah, I should package up my FFI stuff and send it in. I need to do a bit more on it for audio queueing and streaming/looping music.
2019-11-13T18:58:07Z wasamasa: One for sdl1 audio, the other one for a different library by the Xiph people
2019-11-13T18:58:17Z wasamasa: Maybe the latter is on some cgit
2019-11-13T18:58:43Z mdhughes: This is sdl2, it'd just go at the end of the current sdl2 lib, it doesn't need any more dependencies.
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2019-11-14T16:19:44Z amz3: rudybot: what do you think about greenthreads and fibers?
2019-11-14T16:19:57Z rudybot: amz3: there is guile fibers, that are greenthreads running in multiple posix threads, it rely on channels that is some kind of message passing facility where greenthreads (calle fibers) will rendez-vous to exchange some object (afaiu)
2019-11-14T16:23:44Z amz3: sending and recving messages works across greenthread and native threads.
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2019-11-14T18:28:41Z la_zaifir: jcowan: Is it valid for an implementation of SRFI 127 to allow (lseq-take lseq n) to return an lseq with length < n, instead of raising an error if lseq is short?
2019-11-14T18:29:02Z la_zaifir: i.e. mirroring stream-take from SRFI-41, which is (I guess?) what we'd expect in a lazy situation.
2019-11-14T18:29:40Z la_zaifir: The SRFI says only "lseq-take lazily returns the first i elements of lseq", but the ref. implementation errors when lseq is exhausted.
2019-11-14T18:30:29Z la_zaifir: s/, but/. /  There shouldn't be a conjunction between those thoughts. :)
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2019-11-14T18:51:10Z jcowan: la_zaifir: Yes; the case is left unspecified, so we have "it is an error" semantics, which means the implementation can do what it wants.
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2019-11-14T18:53:08Z la_zaifir: jcowan: Thanks.
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2019-11-14T18:58:00Z la_zaifir: That being the case, it seems there's little reason to use lseq-take/-drop, since they can't be safely called without determining the length of the sequence.  And if you can determine that, you've realized the sequence and can just use SRFI 1 take/drop.
2019-11-14T18:58:48Z la_zaifir: Hmm, I'm probably missing some obvious use-case.
2019-11-14T18:59:42Z jcowan: "Give me the first five elements, I know there are that many but I don't know how many there are (perhaps 10,000)."
2019-11-14T18:59:48Z jcowan: or even infinite
2019-11-14T18:59:54Z jcowan: first n primes, e.g.
2019-11-14T19:01:23Z la_zaifir: Right.  Infinite sequences especially.
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2019-11-14T19:03:11Z la_zaifir: Duh.  That was the obvious use-case.  Project-induced myopia.
2019-11-14T19:04:08Z jcowan nods
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2019-11-14T22:41:47Z Jalepeno_X: I have Guix up and running.
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2019-11-14T22:42:39Z Jalepeno_X: I chose the enlightment desktop but I'm confused on how to open a command prompt or download an application like web browser.
2019-11-14T22:42:48Z Jalepeno_X: How do I switch to XFCE?
2019-11-14T22:43:14Z wasamasa: first of all, switch to the guix channel
2019-11-14T22:43:21Z Jalepeno_X: oh lol
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2019-11-15T01:12:11Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-11-15T01:13:14Z ober: well Guile is the one true scheme. can't blame him :P
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2019-11-15T09:37:13Z fmnt: How to check if an identifier is defined as syntax? E.g., something like (syntax? let)
2019-11-15T09:40:42Z wasamasa: I doubt there's any such thing in the standard
2019-11-15T09:41:33Z wasamasa: you'll have to check whether your implementation provides introspection capabilities
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2019-11-15T09:47:47Z fmnt: I see, thanks. I checked a bit for chez and chicken but couldn't find much.
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2019-11-16T11:51:32Z pyc: (display (name->package '(user))) (newline) (->environment (name->package '(user))) (%exit) ; This code runs fine in Scheme 9.1 but not in 10.1. In Scheme 10.1, I get this error: "The object #[package 12 (user)], passed as an argument to ->environment, is not an environment." What has changed in Scheme 10.1 and how to make this code work again?
2019-11-16T11:58:15Z wasamasa: what is this "Scheme 10.1" you're referring to
2019-11-16T11:58:28Z wasamasa: scheme has more than a hundred implementations
2019-11-16T11:59:17Z pyc: wasamasa: Sorry, I should have mentioned. I am referring to MIT Scheme 10.1.1.
2019-11-16T11:59:58Z pyc: wasamasa: correction: MIT Scheme 10.1.5 running on Debian 10.11.
2019-11-16T12:00:53Z wasamasa: ah, since it's MIT Scheme you might have luck since there's a bunch of people hacking on it in here :>
2019-11-16T12:01:00Z wasamasa: I bet it has changelogs, too
2019-11-16T12:07:39Z pyc: wasamasa: Thanks. So I guess I will wait around until someone can help me with my issue in MIT Scheme.
2019-11-16T12:10:08Z wasamasa: have you considered looking at changelogs?
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2019-11-16T12:19:03Z pyc: wasamasa: I did and there are some changes related to "->environment" but I could not find enough details to be sure that it could be causing my issue.
2019-11-16T12:20:04Z wasamasa: so go look at them
2019-11-16T12:20:14Z wasamasa: I mean, what other pointers do you have
2019-11-16T12:20:26Z wasamasa: apparently a package can no longer be converted to an environment
2019-11-16T12:20:34Z wasamasa: look at the docs, too
2019-11-16T12:23:20Z wasamasa: once you've exhausted all these options, you might even want to look at the source code
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2019-11-16T14:07:42Z jcowan: Or you can wait for an expert suffering from Geek Answer Syndrome to show up.
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2019-11-16T16:57:07Z la_zaifir: Geek Answer Syndrome?
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2019-11-16T19:27:56Z jcowan: la_zaifir: The urge to answer questions that (a) haven't actually been asked, or (b) are not meant for you anyway.  It resembles Male Answer Syndrome, except the answers are as correct as the geek can make them, rather than being bullshit intended only to impress.
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2019-11-16T20:07:05Z la_zaifir: Heh, that makes sense.
2019-11-16T20:08:13Z la_zaifir: Although there is some "bullshit intended [at least partially] to impress" in the programming world.
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2019-11-16T21:28:35Z Riastradh: la_zaifir: There is a OBVIOUSLY a very important difference between BULLSHIT that is meant to impress and TECHNICALLY CORRECT INFORMATION that is meant to impress, and it definitely has nothing whatsoever to assert dominance of geek culture over its natural enemy jock culture.
2019-11-16T21:28:50Z Riastradh: er, s/to assert/with asserting/1
2019-11-16T21:28:58Z Riastradh: er, s/to assert/to do with asserting/1
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2019-11-17T02:55:01Z seepe1:  Hi there schemers, I have a question around phasing. I have found a lot of documentation on why phasing is useful, but it still seems like an open question on if it is a good thing or not. So my question is, what are the cons (no pun intended) of phasing. In other words, why is it that phasing is not considered a good thing TM and already included in a specification? Is that most folks consider phasing universally good, but they
2019-11-17T02:55:02Z seepe1: can't agree on how phasing should work? Or are there less spoken reasons why phasing isn't necessarily a good thing?
2019-11-17T02:56:40Z seepe1: If I look at most schemes vs common lisp, it seems that it comes down to the module system. In Common Lisp it seems that the phase of expression is determined by the module, vs most schemes, it seems like the phase is determined by the importer of the module. Would love to hear some comparisons, contrasts of both approaches from folks that know what they are doing.
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2019-11-17T03:16:48Z seepe1: I realized my question may be ambiguous, so just to make it clear the question I'm asking: Common Lispers seem to be happy with eval-when, while schemers (maybe more appropriately Racketeers) are happy with require-for-syntax or the like. And I'm interested in hearing practical trade-offs between the two approaches.
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2019-11-17T03:28:14Z jcowan: seepe1: IMO implicit phasing (in which all identifiers exist and have the same definition at all phases) is the Right Thing.
2019-11-17T03:28:44Z jcowan: Eval-when is a mess, and require-for-syntax etc. is just explicit phasing at a single level.
2019-11-17T03:29:17Z jcowan: Note, however, that if the only macro type you use in Scheme is syntax-rules, phasing is not a problem, because you aren't writing any Scheme code to execute at compile time.
2019-11-17T03:29:58Z jcowan: https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/implicit-phasing.pdf is a great paper on the subject
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2019-11-17T03:35:34Z seepe1:  Oh, I haven't seen that paper, thanks for the pointer, I'll definitely put it on my to-read list. Since I have found a little engagement on the subject, another thought that I had regarding phasing is that if the specification were to claim that there was no guarantee when and how often a macro expansion were to happen, would phasing still be necessary? In other words, if I promise to keep my procedural macros free of side effects
2019-11-17T03:35:35Z seepe1: are there other gotchyas that would still require phasing?
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2019-11-17T03:38:18Z seepe1: And of course, examples of eval-when being a mess would be much appreciated too :D
2019-11-17T03:39:24Z jcowan: Well, for one thing it looks like there are eight possible cases, but most of them make no real sense
2019-11-17T03:40:12Z seepe1: And sorry, my brain is still catching up, but I totally get how syntax-rules does not require phasing, so my question is really around procedural macros
2019-11-17T03:42:17Z seepe1: That is interesting, I think I've only sorted out four cases. I would be really interested in hearing all eight, and how they don't make sense. I also realize I'm just a random dude that showed up in a chat, so feel free to point me to relevant literature and say "Come bak when you understand this"
2019-11-17T03:42:22Z jcowan: It's not so much when and whether macro expansion happens: essentially all Schemes expand macros in advance.  I think SCM is an exception
2019-11-17T03:43:39Z jcowan: I mean eval-when has three binary options, compile/load/execute, so thats 3^2 = 9 possibilities
2019-11-17T03:43:58Z jcowan: of which one, no-compile no-load no-execute = never, so it's obviously useless.
2019-11-17T03:44:05Z seepe1: Ahh, that makes sense
2019-11-17T03:46:05Z seepe1: So that does indeed beg the question, which of these scenarios makes sense. It seems that if you take the exclusive combination, either compile, or load, or execute. Each of those three makes sense, but which of the combinations still make sense, and separately, if they do make sense, which of the combinations are useful?
2019-11-17T03:46:09Z jcowan: See Fare's piece https://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html "EVAL-WHEN considered harmful to your mental health" for which options are actually useful.
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2019-11-17T03:46:35Z jcowan: He argues that only three are safe and only one is actually necessary, namely "all three".
2019-11-17T03:51:41Z seepe1: Pretty sure my mind is now blown, "all three" goes against my intuition so I'm content to go study the links you've given me. If there are any other random tidbits you can think of that will help me understand better I'll take them. But as being just a random guy that hopped into an IRC channel, this is awesome!
2019-11-17T03:52:40Z seepe1: And now you have the unfortunate distinction of being helpful, so I may very well be back with more annoying questions :D
2019-11-17T03:54:30Z seepe1: I think it will take me some time to unpack this statement: "IMO implicit phasing (in which all identifiers exist and have the same definition at all phases) is the Right Thing"
2019-11-17T04:05:33Z Fare: jcowan, I'm finally using Scheme again. Yay!
2019-11-17T04:05:36Z Fare: Gerbil Scheme.
2019-11-17T04:05:49Z Fare: jcowan, BTW, if you ever come to Boston, please come speak at the Boston Lisp Meeting.
2019-11-17T04:06:28Z jcowan: seepe1: I love answering questions
2019-11-17T04:07:00Z jcowan: Fare: Thanks, but I think it's unlikely now
2019-11-17T04:11:27Z seepe1: jcowen: Great, because I am full of questions! Just read the introduction to the first link you sent me about implicit phasing. Very interested to see the details as it seems highly relevant to my question. Though I have to ask, are there known scenarios where the technique fails?
2019-11-17T04:14:30Z dto: hi Fare.
2019-11-17T04:14:33Z dto: did u get my memo
2019-11-17T04:14:39Z dto: how is your object system going
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2019-11-17T04:18:52Z seepe1: I'm also looking at this phase and while I _think_ I get the implications, I'm wondering if it must be true: "It's not so much when and whether macro expansion happens: essentially all Schemes expand macros in advance"
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2019-11-17T04:22:18Z Fare: dto: memo? Oops, no it must have been lost in the logs
2019-11-17T04:22:22Z seepe1: And I meant to type "looking at this phrase' not "looking at this phase"
2019-11-17T04:22:29Z Fare: dto: I just wrote a MOP. Untested.
2019-11-17T04:22:41Z dto: Fare: I was talking about call next method being a pain in the ass to implement with prototypes
2019-11-17T04:22:57Z Fare: Nope, was pretty simple to me.
2019-11-17T04:23:11Z dto: Fare: oh interesting. I hope it goes well!
2019-11-17T04:23:26Z Fare: see line 94 of gerbil-utils/poo/poo.ss
2019-11-17T04:24:17Z Fare: works in conjunction with function compute-slot at line 27
2019-11-17T04:24:49Z Fare: for the sake of logs, the current git commit is 21c5832
2019-11-17T04:25:18Z Fare: dto: POO works really well in a pure lazy functional setting.
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2019-11-17T04:25:30Z Fare: as in Nix, Jsonnet, or gerbil using lazy.
2019-11-17T04:25:42Z Fare: also, most of the laziness is actually in using hash-ensure-ref.
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2019-11-17T04:26:33Z dto: yous system is called POO?
2019-11-17T04:26:41Z Fare: yes, what else?
2019-11-17T04:26:50Z dto: also which dialect of Scheme is it in?
2019-11-17T04:26:51Z Fare: prototype object orientation.
2019-11-17T04:26:55Z Fare: Gerbil Scheme.
2019-11-17T04:27:02Z Fare: https://cons.io/
2019-11-17T04:27:06Z dto: i'm working with a somewhat oddball scheme called S7 , embedded in the Snd editor
2019-11-17T04:27:11Z dto: looking.
2019-11-17T04:27:38Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/gerbil-utils/blob/master/poo/poo.md
2019-11-17T04:27:57Z Fare: It shouldn't be too hard to port to another Scheme.
2019-11-17T04:29:11Z dto: wow this looks cool.
2019-11-17T04:29:56Z dto: i'm using EIEIO and CL-DEFMETHOD on the elisp side, and a tweaked version of Snd's single-dispatch object system on the Scheme side.
2019-11-17T04:30:09Z dto: Fare: what will you be buildign with poo
2019-11-17T04:30:31Z dto: did you by any chance catch my emacsconf lightning talk about my sequencer?
2019-11-17T04:30:39Z Fare: a compiler's compile-time description of types and other data
2019-11-17T04:30:50Z Fare: dto: I didn't. Where is it?
2019-11-17T04:31:06Z Fare: dto: I also need to re-read your org-mode stuff. I still am not using it :-(
2019-11-17T04:31:24Z dto: which org mode stuff do you mean?
2019-11-17T04:31:38Z Fare: probably old stuff
2019-11-17T04:31:51Z Fare: do you have new org mode stuff?
2019-11-17T04:32:28Z dto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbQAGbADyB8    here is the prerecorded "backup" version of my live talk, the real vids are not published yet
2019-11-17T04:32:57Z dto: i wrote a spreadsheet mode in emacs in 2006 and then extended it this year to implement a sequencer for Snd-CLM and some custom Vaporwave music functionality on the Scheme side.
2019-11-17T04:33:09Z dto: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/tZeSXBtl/Screenshot%20from%202019-11-16%2011-56-12.png
2019-11-17T04:33:14Z dto: and of course i have a diagram.
2019-11-17T04:33:35Z dto: so i'm using embedded scheme in elisp, generating scheme from elisp etc
2019-11-17T04:34:04Z dto: it's like writng an elisp macro whose body is scheme. you even use backquote etc
2019-11-17T04:34:25Z dto: here is the Scheme side docs, emacs side docs are unfinished as of now
2019-11-17T04:34:25Z dto: http://xelf.me/scheme-mosaic.html
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2019-11-17T04:35:56Z dto: Fare: you might be referring to my org-mode tutorial, or my org-gtd setup, or my org-publish module
2019-11-17T04:36:07Z dto: i dont have any new org stuff
2019-11-17T04:37:43Z seepe1: Fare: dto: I originally popped in to ask some scheme question, but both of these projects look very cool!
2019-11-17T04:38:10Z dto: seepe1: welcome to our savage, decadent underworld
2019-11-17T04:38:44Z dto: are you into classical approaches to computer music ?
2019-11-17T04:38:59Z seepe1: Thank you! It seems like a nice underworld indeed!
2019-11-17T04:41:19Z seepe1: I am not, but back in the day, did a lot of traditional music theory, so based on an admittedly cursory look I think I get the broad picture?
2019-11-17T04:43:24Z Fare: dto: yes, yes and yes
2019-11-17T04:43:25Z dto: yep!
2019-11-17T04:43:53Z dto: seepe1: did you ever get into quarter-tone or sixth-tone or other nonstandard tunings
2019-11-17T04:44:59Z dto: Fare: do you mean yes to the 3 org things i mentioned?
2019-11-17T04:45:41Z Fare: dto: look cool. Have I ever told you about Guitar Anti-Hero?
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2019-11-17T04:45:48Z Fare: dto: yes
2019-11-17T04:45:50Z dto: nope fare. whats that
2019-11-17T04:46:06Z seepe1: dto: Most of my non-standard tunings were to play punk rock :D Though I also prided myself on playing non-standard tuning punk on a stardardly tuned base :D
2019-11-17T04:46:10Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/projects/issues/1
2019-11-17T04:46:49Z seepe1: So I guess the answer is no, but I wish the answer were yes /shrug
2019-11-17T04:47:15Z dto: wow that looks clever fare.
2019-11-17T04:47:50Z dto: seepe1: :)
2019-11-17T04:48:17Z dto: seepe1: here's a nice string quartet if u wanna test your interest in alternative tuning systems https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uZUQqOLyPQ
2019-11-17T04:48:24Z Fare: dto: very dumb... I can't write it for now
2019-11-17T04:48:31Z friscosam: Fare: wow Slate, that really takes me back
2019-11-17T04:48:45Z Fare: friscosam, did you use it?
2019-11-17T04:48:55Z dto: Fare: i bet you could use concatenative synthesis to make your project happen.
2019-11-17T04:49:08Z friscosam: Yeah, but I've forgotten a lot of it now.
2019-11-17T04:51:55Z dto: Fare: why can't write it?
2019-11-17T04:52:27Z seepe1: dto: definitely very interesting and I enjoy it, in my youth I would have probably had more to say :D
2019-11-17T04:53:38Z la_zaifir: Ben Johnston :)
2019-11-17T04:54:34Z dto: fare https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/izFFGtZ6/
2019-11-17T04:54:43Z dto: this is the overview of the music project
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2019-11-17T04:55:04Z dto: do u want to hear some of the sounds i've been making? http://xelf.me/demo-collection.mp3
2019-11-17T04:55:17Z dto: not finished songs of course. snippets
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2019-11-17T04:58:54Z seepe1: Fare: took a poke around your github and saw moll. I'm also interested in Henry Baker's Linear Lisp. Any off the cuff learnings you have from the project?
2019-11-17T05:02:50Z Fare: I never got very far with moll sorry :-(
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2019-11-17T05:03:53Z Fare: beyond pointing to one-bit-reference counting, Rust, and Alan Bawden's thesis, I don't have much to say.
2019-11-17T05:05:25Z dto: Fare: are you familiar with the French spectral composers and movement
2019-11-17T05:10:32Z seepe1: Fare: Fair enough, and sounds about right. Only thing I would add to the list is Cyclone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_(programming_language)
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2019-11-17T05:27:21Z Fare: dto: too busy writing other stuff
2019-11-17T05:27:27Z dto: i see
2019-11-17T05:29:52Z jcowan: The neat thing about Linear Lisp is that's it's equivalent in power to Forth
2019-11-17T05:30:06Z jcowan loves learning such equivalences
2019-11-17T05:30:19Z seepe1: The Forth shall be First after all
2019-11-17T05:30:28Z jcowan: Datalog (a subset of Prolog) is equivalent to the relational algebra + transitive closure
2019-11-17T05:31:26Z seepe1: I haven't been in this chat for very long, but I bet you have a paper that points to such an equivalence?
2019-11-17T05:32:19Z seepe1: As an aside I'm also still wrapping my head around Mini Kanren vs Prolog
2019-11-17T05:46:19Z Fare: HP's Reverse Polish Lisp (kind of a FORTH, but strongly dynamically typed, with GC like PostScript, but with a visual stack and computer algebra and symbolic differentiation, like, well, nothing else.
2019-11-17T05:46:31Z Fare: ) was my first language love.
2019-11-17T05:52:18Z seepe1: It does all seem to make sense. In the end processing a list isn't that different from popping from a stack.
2019-11-17T06:08:00Z erkin: I miss my HP 50g.
2019-11-17T06:16:11Z jcowan: I don't have a specific paper on Datalog=RA, it's kind of a well known result.  I think it could be proved by construction fairly simply.
2019-11-17T06:16:38Z jcowan: (also it's 0116 and I'm starting to crumble)
2019-11-17T06:20:35Z seepe1: Absolutely, thanks for all the info!
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2019-11-17T09:17:49Z amz3: the equivalence predicate for number is... =. I keep stumbling on old code of mine where is use eq? or equal?
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2019-11-17T11:39:16Z wasamasa: good to see I'm not the only one having troubles with eval-when* style macros
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2019-11-17T14:14:55Z amz3: I just faced a case where a parameter can be passed as argument of a procedure. In the full-text search okvs abstraction (read search engine) I am working on, I rely in several places on a `thread-index` that is a bytevector of length two, that is used to increase concurency in the okvs by avoiding key contention and transaction retry.
2019-11-17T14:16:03Z amz3: To make the search engine abstraction "portable" I need the user to provide that `thread-index` parameter.
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2019-11-18T00:09:28Z bsima: is there a standard way to serialize a record to a list?
2019-11-18T00:09:58Z la_zaifir: Nope, for R7RS records at least.
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2019-11-18T00:10:47Z la_zaifir: It would be nice if there were.  It would make portably pattern-matching records possible.
2019-11-18T00:11:23Z bsima: are there any good ways to do so?
2019-11-18T00:11:36Z bsima: or do i have to invent a solution myself?
2019-11-18T00:12:59Z la_zaifir: Your implementation might have something.  CHICKEN has `record->vector', for example.
2019-11-18T00:13:53Z la_zaifir: If you only need to handle a few record types, then the simplest way would be to roll your own.
2019-11-18T00:14:22Z bsima: mm, i'm on guile and i don't see anything like record->vector
2019-11-18T00:24:48Z erkin: There should be a `serialize` procedure.
2019-11-18T00:27:35Z erkin: Yeah, it's in (ice-9 serialize)
2019-11-18T00:28:00Z la_zaifir: Maybe something analogous to a comparator would work.  You create a bundle `serializer' with a type predicate and a serializing function, then call (serialize <serializer> obj).
2019-11-18T00:28:32Z la_zaifir: Sorry, general design speculation, not helpful advice.
2019-11-18T00:28:36Z erkin: Oh wait
2019-11-18T00:28:41Z erkin: It's the wrong module I'm thinking of.
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2019-11-18T01:03:51Z bsima: i just turned my record into an association list, simple enough
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2019-11-18T02:14:56Z mdhughes: Chicken has define-reader-ctor and define-record-printer which let you round-trip records with normal read/write.
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2019-11-18T02:42:49Z Riastradh: seepel: Counterpoint: Implicit phasing is the Wrong Thing.  If you're _not sure_ whether you've imported launch-the-missiles to be run on the developer's machine when compiling the program, or on the production server when running the program, something is wrong in your program design.
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2019-11-18T17:48:40Z johnjay: are there any schemes which come close to the "industrial strength" of cl?
2019-11-18T17:49:00Z gnomon: johnjay, Chez?
2019-11-18T17:49:16Z johnjay: maybe. i'm not sure what i mean by strength though. is it just libraries?
2019-11-18T17:49:23Z gnomon: That question feels like excellent argument kindling, in any case.
2019-11-18T17:49:24Z johnjay: or lang features like multiple inheritance?
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2019-11-18T17:59:35Z belmarca: johnjay cons.io (gerbil)
2019-11-18T17:59:51Z belmarca: metalanguage on top of gambit
2019-11-18T18:00:14Z johnjay: 'meta-dialect with postmodern features'
2019-11-18T18:00:27Z belmarca: look at the stdlib if you're unconvinced.
2019-11-18T18:00:53Z johnjay: i like the minimalist layout of the landing page
2019-11-18T18:00:57Z johnjay: then it takes you right to a tutorial
2019-11-18T18:01:09Z belmarca: I think that's vuepress default or something, not sure.
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2019-11-18T18:01:24Z belmarca: it is intended to be practical
2019-11-18T18:02:13Z belmarca: there is #gerbil-scheme if you want to ask more questions
2019-11-18T18:02:40Z johnjay: thanks
2019-11-18T18:03:25Z johnjay: i'm reading atm a stackexchange answer about threading and cross-platforming
2019-11-18T18:03:44Z belmarca: gambit does that
2019-11-18T18:03:52Z johnjay: apparently chez scheme, allegro, and lispworks were the only ones they could use
2019-11-18T18:03:59Z johnjay: i.e. that satisfied those things
2019-11-18T18:04:15Z belmarca: ah os threads?
2019-11-18T18:04:18Z belmarca: or green ones
2019-11-18T18:04:41Z belmarca: gambit has support for smp but it's not stable
2019-11-18T18:04:56Z johnjay: it says native threads. what is a "green thread"?
2019-11-18T18:04:59Z belmarca: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit.html#Threads
2019-11-18T18:05:01Z belmarca: ^
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2019-11-18T18:52:10Z ober: very fast threads.
2019-11-18T18:56:08Z amz3: green threads are the threads that are preserving the environment ;o)
2019-11-18T18:57:23Z amz3: seriously, I use greenthread, to say cooperative scheduler based threading. that is, when a greethread need to do some io (most likely network io), instead of blocking the native thread it will let another greenthread run.
2019-11-18T18:57:24Z nisstyre: always wondered why they were called that
2019-11-18T18:57:47Z nisstyre: >Green threads refers to the name of the original thread library for the programming language Java. It was designed by The Green Team at Sun Microsystems.[2]
2019-11-18T18:57:49Z amz3: nisstyre: I believe it is because they do not wait in an active manner.
2019-11-18T18:57:52Z nisstyre: nope
2019-11-18T18:58:01Z nisstyre: apparently it's because of some Java thing
2019-11-18T18:58:21Z nisstyre: if you believe wikipedia at least
2019-11-18T19:04:55Z la_zaifir: johnjay: Why do you need "industrial strength", exactly?
2019-11-18T19:07:39Z ober: gambit green threads work great for hundreds of concurrent rest connections
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2019-11-18T19:08:19Z ober: "web scale" lol
2019-11-18T19:08:57Z ober: johnjay: I recommend develop a minimal use case, then implement it in a few schemes. it's usually the best way to identify fit for your needs.
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2019-11-18T19:15:51Z amz3: with r7rs it is much easier to port code from one scheme implementation to another. Also pffi helps.
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2019-11-18T19:40:15Z bsima: is anyone aware of a portable static typing library? I'm looking at the static typing in chicken and racket, but i'd really like it for guile and r7rs
2019-11-18T19:40:58Z la_zaifir: How could it be portable?
2019-11-18T19:41:32Z bsima: i want it for the type checking not the compiler optimizations
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2019-11-18T19:44:36Z pjb: la_zaifir: everything and anything can be portable: just write it against standard API!
2019-11-18T19:44:56Z pjb: la_zaifir: don't use implementation or platform specific stuff. don't use FFI.
2019-11-18T19:45:28Z la_zaifir: pjb: The question was about static type systems.
2019-11-18T19:48:10Z daviid: johnjay: out of curiosity, what is your 'industrial strengh' need/objective? can you  describe it in a few words?
2019-11-18T19:48:43Z la_zaifir: bsima: I guess it's conceivable that you could implement static typing portably.  But you get almost nothing from the Scheme type system that could help.  You can't use type predicates (pair?, number?, etc.) to implement type checking at compile-time, and you'd have to dramatically constrain a lot of core Scheme forms and structures.  It'd be a different language.
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2019-11-18T19:49:23Z la_zaifir: bsima: But I don't know of anyone that's tried it.
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2019-11-18T19:51:48Z la_zaifir: This is probably why, when the authors of The Little Typer needed to implement a statically-typed Scheme-like language (Pie), they were seemingly forced to go Racket-only.
2019-11-18T19:53:33Z bsima: hmm, i've been meaning to read the little typer, i guess i should put that at the top of my todo list so i understand the problem deeper, thanks la_zaifir
2019-11-18T19:54:35Z la_zaifir: bsima: np.  Read it, it's a great book.
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2019-11-18T20:04:51Z pjb: la_zaifir: static type systems are encompassed by everything and anything.
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2019-11-18T20:35:07Z amz3: bsima: never used but it is there: http://www.tohoyn.fi/theme-d/
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2019-11-18T20:46:36Z devon: 有中文R⁷RS吗？
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2019-11-18T20:50:26Z bsima: amz3: thanks, Theme-D is very cool
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2019-11-18T21:15:05Z turbofail: re: static typing in scheme, see pre-scheme https://thintz.com/resources/prescheme-documentation
2019-11-18T21:16:19Z turbofail: calling the result "scheme" is honestly a bit of a stretch but it's at least scheme-ish
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2019-11-18T22:05:38Z jcowan: It's a proper name, so it should be "Green threads"
2019-11-18T22:05:47Z jcowan: but then again there is "abelian group"
2019-11-18T22:06:31Z jcowan: If we had a standard convention for *expressing* types, then writing a portable static type checker would be straightforward.
2019-11-18T22:06:56Z jcowan: Of course, it would not be able to remove run-time type checks, but it would assure you that they wouldn't happen
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2019-11-18T22:07:51Z jcowan: Python has five outboard static type checkers, for example
2019-11-18T22:09:22Z Jale: Hi
2019-11-18T22:10:09Z jcowan: hey ho Jale
2019-11-18T22:10:33Z Jale: I'm confused by a piece of code at https://paste.debian.net/1116868/
2019-11-18T22:11:08Z Jale: particularly this part https://paste.debian.net/1116869/
2019-11-18T22:11:54Z wasamasa: it's just nested ifs
2019-11-18T22:12:09Z jcowan: But it is very bad style
2019-11-18T22:12:11Z Jale: so if m isn't divisible by either 4, 100, 400, it will be 28, othewise it will be 29
2019-11-18T22:12:12Z Jale: ?
2019-11-18T22:12:18Z wasamasa: I'd just use a cond, honestly
2019-11-18T22:12:27Z pjb: Jale: it determines if the year is a bisextile year (a leap year).
2019-11-18T22:12:35Z Jale: I don't comprehend where the 29 28) 29 ) 28)) are applied to.
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2019-11-18T22:12:57Z jcowan: It's already embedded in a cond; there should just be more cond clauses for February.  It's trying to prevent evaluating (= m 2) more than once, but that's silly
2019-11-18T22:13:11Z pjb: As jcowan says it's bad style to inline things like that. It should have called (leap-year? y) or something like that instead.
2019-11-18T22:13:12Z jcowan: "Premature optimization is the root of all evil."
2019-11-18T22:13:28Z Jale: oh i see
2019-11-18T22:13:33Z jcowan: Oh, I don't mind the inlining, it's the unnecessary nesting I object to.
2019-11-18T22:14:01Z Jale: The nesting confuses me.
2019-11-18T22:14:30Z jcowan: ((and (= m 2) (divisible? y 400)) 28)
2019-11-18T22:14:44Z jcowan: ((and (= m 2) (divisible? y 4)) 29)
2019-11-18T22:14:45Z pjb: Yeah, you're bothered by syntactic bad style, but not by high level bad style…  Typical…
2019-11-18T22:14:55Z jcowan: ((= m 2) 28)
2019-11-18T22:15:48Z jcowan: Sure, then it's ((= m 2) (if (leap-year? y) 29 28))
2019-11-18T22:15:57Z jcowan: but the definition of leap-year? will look much like the above
2019-11-18T22:16:29Z Jale: which 28 and 29 go to which if statement?
2019-11-18T22:17:59Z Jale: Oh I think I kind of getting it, if the first if statement is false it goes to the third if statement?
2019-11-18T22:19:08Z jcowan: The indents show how it works: the "then" and "else" parts of each if are lined up vertically
2019-11-18T22:19:49Z jcowan: So it's saying "If y is divisible by 400, then if y is divisible by 100, then if y is divisible by 4, then 29 else 28 else 29 else 28."
2019-11-18T22:19:50Z Jale: what do the indents signify.
2019-11-18T22:20:00Z jcowan: Which is too much center-embedding for humans to process.
2019-11-18T22:21:03Z Jale: jcowan isn't it flowing the opposite direction? "If y is divisible by 4, then if y is divisible by 100, then if y is divisible by 400, then 29 else 28 else 29 else 28."
2019-11-18T22:21:27Z jcowan: Yes, you're right of course
2019-11-18T22:21:36Z jcowan: the fact that I misread it shows how bad it is
2019-11-18T22:22:41Z jcowan: "A man that a woman loves is here" -> "A man that a woman that a child knows loves is here" -> "A man that a woman that a child that a bird saw knows loves is here" -> "A man that a woman that a child that a bird that I heard saw knows loves is here"
2019-11-18T22:22:49Z jcowan: each sentence is less intelligible than the one before
2019-11-18T22:23:30Z jcowan: three verbs in a row works, but four and five do not: we try to pop the stack, but it has already underflowed
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2019-11-18T22:25:50Z edgar-rft: I write all my stuff in javascript instead of lisp to avoid premature optimisation.
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2019-11-18T22:27:31Z pjb: (define leap-year? (y) (and (divisible-by? y 4) (or (divisible-by? 400) (not (divisible-by? y 100)))))
2019-11-18T22:32:38Z pjb: I would note that in scheme there are literal vectors!  Therefore (cond ((or (< m 1) (< 12 m)) 0) (else (vector-ref (if (leap-year? y) #(31 29 31 30 31 30 31 31 30 31 30 31) #(31 28 31 30 31 30 31 31 30 31 30 31)) (- m 1))))
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2019-11-18T22:51:59Z jcowan: Definitely better.
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2019-11-19T04:50:03Z mdhughes: As long as you only care about dates since the Gregorian calendar changeover.
2019-11-19T04:53:15Z pjb: mdhughes: note that calendars define dates much deeper in the past than they were actually used.  Notably, when you consider dates before the Gregorial calendar changeover, you are considering dates before 1927!!!
2019-11-19T04:53:32Z pjb: Since it's Turkey that changed latest, in 1927.
2019-11-19T04:54:09Z pjb: The Gregorial calendar changeover occured over more than 300 years!  from 1582 to 1927.
2019-11-19T04:54:10Z mdhughes: That's my point. It's not a distant past, it may be dates from, say, when living people were born.
2019-11-19T04:55:05Z pjb: So you need to consider pairs of (place date) quickly when you deal with past date.
2019-11-19T04:55:07Z mdhughes: You're gonna have ugly bugs if you just naïvely implement Gregorian calendars for all time. Use a mature date library!
2019-11-19T04:55:24Z mdhughes: Those are called "Locales".
2019-11-19T04:55:38Z pjb: And the precise calendars are few, don't go back very far in the past, and were not used in a lot of places!
2019-11-19T04:55:53Z pjb: mature date library! :-)
2019-11-19T04:56:51Z aeth: The only locale is ISO-8601
2019-11-19T04:56:54Z pjb: In the Roman times, calendars are quite fuzzy, depending of course on the city, but since they're counted from the reign of the current souverain, it's very difficult to fix them precisely.
2019-11-19T04:57:15Z pjb: (and the Roman empire was quite limited in space too).
2019-11-19T04:57:41Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proleptic_Gregorian_calendar
2019-11-19T04:57:58Z pjb: So, for time machine builders and explorers, one difficulty will be to establish a calendar, to be able to jump to a precise time.
2019-11-19T04:58:49Z aeth: The other thing about time travel is that you must get the correct space, not just the correct time. Not only is the Earth moving around the Sun, but the Sun is also moving around the galaxy. Does time travel take this into account?
2019-11-19T04:59:04Z pjb: If you use the current Gregorian calendar to jump into the past, you will have to adjust all your jumps.  Perhaps you'll have to wait several life times to find the correct time! (or just make a dichotomy of jumps).
2019-11-19T04:59:14Z mdhughes: https://www.joda.org/joda-time/ is a good library. I'm not sure what the C equivalent is, but that'd be best to wrap in an FFI for Scheme.
2019-11-19T04:59:53Z pjb: aeth: correct space is easier to manage, since there are not too many adjustment to the orbits of the planets around the Sun, and the Sun around the Galaxy.
2019-11-19T05:01:06Z aeth: pjb: But the penalty for a miscalculation is higher. Off by a few days, and I'm still pretty much where I want to be. Off in celestial calculations and I'm (probably) in empty space.
2019-11-19T05:01:17Z pjb: aeth: but you're right that if we consider times over thousands of years, (ie. a significant arc of Sun's orbit around the galaxy which is only about 225-250 million years (we don't even know exactly how much it is!!!), it'll be difficult.
2019-11-19T05:01:39Z pjb: aeth: any long-time time-machine must also be a spaceship.
2019-11-19T05:02:14Z pjb: aeth:  you also need to consider gravity!
2019-11-19T05:02:36Z pjb: and speed, if you want to rejoin with a fast travelling body or ship.
2019-11-19T05:02:47Z aeth: Ideally, it is a spaceship that can camouflage to fit into its surrounding.
2019-11-19T05:03:10Z pjb: Now you understand why the computers of ST spaceships are so big…
2019-11-19T05:03:26Z aeth: Yes, I've played kerbal space program with a faster than light mod and it gets really weird because you'll still be moving as if you were orbiting something
2019-11-19T05:03:45Z pjb: Eventually, you orbit the whole universe.
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2019-11-19T13:07:40Z pinoaffe: aeth: it's not moving, the earth is as fixed as any other point in space
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2019-11-19T13:20:44Z jcowan: There's also the fact that until the invention of the mechanical clock, an hour is 1/12 of the time between sunrise and sunset or vice versa, and so the lengths of hours change every day, not to mention that daytime hours are only rarely the same length as nighttime hours.
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2019-11-19T13:24:03Z jcowan: mdhughes: I started out with Joda Time transposed into Scheme, but I found that handling all the weird calendars just loaded up the system with complexity.
2019-11-19T13:24:45Z mdhughes: Candles and water clocks predate mechanical clocks by ~2000 years and aren't too bad for accuracy.
2019-11-19T13:25:08Z mdhughes: And hourglasses.
2019-11-19T13:28:41Z mdhughes: For programmer-type tasks, probably just UTC since 1970 is fine, but a lot of human-related tasks do need all that complexity, more so when you get out of US/EU. Even Japan, Korea, and China add weird calendars. Joda or some C equivalent (best I could find quickly was C++ Boost, which ew) really is needed.
2019-11-19T13:29:55Z mdhughes: I've been somewhat spoiled on the Mac, since NSCalendar cluster is quite good, and largely you can punt calendaring problems to Calendar.app
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2019-11-19T13:44:31Z la_zaifir: C++ Bewwwwwst.
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2019-11-19T14:07:42Z la_zaifir: Maybe this is a stretch, but is anyone aware of any papers discussing the correspondance between hygienic macros systems (especially syntax-case) and monads?
2019-11-19T14:07:59Z la_zaifir: s/corrspondance/correspondence/
2019-11-19T14:08:45Z la_zaifir: s/macros systems/macro systems/  Oof, more coffee.
2019-11-19T14:18:18Z jcowan: https://dorophone.blogspot.com/2011/09/ seems to be relevant
2019-11-19T14:20:14Z la_zaifir: jcowan: It does indeed.  Thanks very much; that's a good start.
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2019-11-20T02:37:10Z [rg]: hello
2019-11-20T02:39:25Z la_zaifir: Hey [rg].
2019-11-20T02:40:42Z [rg]: I haven't gotten very far into scheme, so hopefully I will be able to apply a hacker style mentality and just get going
2019-11-20T02:42:05Z la_zaifir: Good plan.
2019-11-20T02:42:59Z [rg]: working on anything?
2019-11-20T02:43:44Z la_zaifir: Not much.  Trying to fully understand syntax-case, as far as Scheme goes.
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2019-11-20T02:48:19Z [rg]: is scheme iee754 conformant?
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2019-11-20T03:05:47Z pjb: Not necessarily (AFAIK). But I would guess most implementations currently are.
2019-11-20T03:09:07Z jcowan: I know of only a few that aren't.  IEEE 754 is basically R4RS+ (it adds a few constraints like "#f and () are distinct".
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2019-11-20T03:15:02Z la_zaifir: Oh, I didn't know R4RS allowed () ≡ #f.
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2019-11-20T03:18:49Z jcowan: Barely.  It's deprecated.
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2019-11-20T03:54:33Z jcowan: I've been trying to find out the specific provisions that IEEE Scheme imposes over and above R4RS, but no luck.
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2019-11-20T04:10:11Z [rg]: so about iee754?
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2019-11-20T04:54:00Z jcowan: Oh, sorry, I was looking at 1178.
2019-11-20T04:55:12Z jcowan: So no, 754 is not a requirement at all, but de facto all Schemes use it if they support inexact numbers at all.  The whole point of inexact numbers is that they are fast.
2019-11-20T04:55:28Z jcowan: Implementing them as something without hardware support is basically pointless.
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2019-11-20T05:19:23Z [rg]: thanks jcowan
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2019-11-20T05:55:37Z lockywolf: I remember ranting a lot about environment diagrams here. So, eventually I got to redraw a few of them in TikZ.
2019-11-20T05:55:40Z lockywolf: https://gitlab.com/Lockywolf/chibi-sicp/blob/master/index.org
2019-11-20T05:56:53Z lockywolf: Code scavenging welcome.
2019-11-20T05:59:18Z lockywolf: Is there a need in some self-consistent document describing an environment diagram "standard"?
2019-11-20T06:01:27Z lockywolf: Because frankly, SICP is _not_ a good description of those.
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2019-11-20T14:16:52Z dto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc1IphRx1pk here's todays feel good music
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2019-11-20T14:26:44Z la_zaifir: It's like Grace Jones superimposed on scenes from Koyaanisqatsi...
2019-11-20T14:28:02Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: What benefit would there be in having a standard for environment diagrams?
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2019-11-20T14:46:33Z lockywolf: la_zaifir, setting expectations for what to expect from a debugger?
2019-11-20T14:46:43Z lockywolf: also reducing confusion
2019-11-20T14:52:43Z pjb: Write your own debugger!
2019-11-20T14:52:52Z pjb: Debuggers can be better than what we have.
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2019-11-20T15:12:56Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: One way I look at this is that standardizing a matter of presenting a structure isn't helpful, because there are many ways to look at data and picking one (or a few) stifles new approaches.
2019-11-20T15:14:33Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: AFAIK, we don't have some meteorological standard saying that rainfall amounts have to be represented by and only by a certain type of chart!
2019-11-20T15:18:00Z la_zaifir: OK, maybe that's a silly example.
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2019-11-20T19:28:22Z jcowan: it's usually more a matter of presentation *guidelines*: don't read your slides, use a decent-sized font for seeing across the room, etc.
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2019-11-21T01:17:40Z lockywolf: la_zaifir, nobody is, you know, obliged to follow this "RFC"
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2019-11-21T01:19:22Z lockywolf: also, having a standard weather chart would not be bad
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2019-11-21T04:34:22Z mdhughes: There's a good presentation rule: https://guykawasaki.com/the_102030_rule/
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2019-11-21T05:17:35Z la_zaifir: I meant `presentation' in a general sense, as in "ways of visualizing or projecting data".  Not Powerless Pointlessness.
2019-11-21T05:22:07Z la_zaifir: An absolute classic on this topic is Tufte's "Visual Display of Quantitative Information".
2019-11-21T05:42:33Z mdhughes: I've seen Tufte give his presentation (was at 'zon at the time, they bring in speakers). He could've used some easier-to-read slides, many of them are only usable if you have the book or poster map.
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2019-11-21T12:43:43Z jcowan snickers: the presentation guy doesn't know how to do presentations!
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2019-11-21T16:10:32Z mdhughes: The book really is excellent for doing printed data presentations. It's just he wasn't quite ready for the 21st C.
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2019-11-21T19:02:39Z jcowan: mdhughes: I agree re Tuft
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2019-11-21T19:30:41Z zig: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~pavlo/blog/2015/09/the-next-50-years-of-databases.html
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2019-11-22T05:58:49Z mdhughes: I'm perplexed by this not working: (define-syntax define-method  (syntax-rules ()  [(_ class method-name (arg ...) body ...)  (%define-method class method-name (lambda (self arg ...) body ...))]
2019-11-22T05:59:48Z mdhughes: I'm introducing a field `self` in the lambda, but it's not accessible in the expanded lambda, AFAICT.
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2019-11-22T06:57:13Z la_zaifir: You're trying to break hygiene.
2019-11-22T07:00:03Z la_zaifir: R7 4.3.2: "If a literal identifier is inserted as a bound identifier then it is in effect renamed to prevent inadvertent captures of free identifiers."
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2019-11-22T07:04:35Z la_zaifir: The whole theory of hygienic macros exists to stop bindings like that!
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2019-11-22T07:29:12Z mdhughes: I thought that only applied to bringing in external bindings. I'm introducing an internal binding, which would shadow anything outside.
2019-11-22T07:32:06Z mdhughes: Bleh. Now I gotta learn how to use LISP-style macros? Or live with this stupid (self) field in every method.
2019-11-22T07:33:19Z mdhughes: (and really I might also want to also insert something like Objective-C's _cmd parameter, so I do need to fix this)
2019-11-22T07:39:01Z erkin: mdhughes: If your implementation has it, you might want syntax-case.
2019-11-22T07:40:35Z erkin: Alternatively, you can bind `self` to a syntax parameter with SRFI-139.
2019-11-22T07:40:37Z mdhughes: erkin: Alas, Chicken had syntax-case in C3, but lost it since then.
2019-11-22T07:44:21Z erkin: Sounds like a good time to learn renaming macros then. :-)
2019-11-22T07:44:40Z erkin: http://wiki.call-cc.org/explicit-renaming-macros
2019-11-22T07:46:22Z mdhughes: SRFI-139 and the paper are great. Just what I need... Which isn't in Chicken, neither.
2019-11-22T07:46:23Z la_zaifir: mdhughes: ER-macros
2019-11-22T07:46:51Z la_zaifir: Oh, erkin beat me to it.
2019-11-22T07:46:58Z erkin: :-)
2019-11-22T07:51:57Z la_zaifir: CHICKEN reeeeally needs syntax-case, imho.
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2019-11-22T08:03:06Z erkin: I believe it was removed on purpose to make way for renaming macros.
2019-11-22T08:04:11Z la_zaifir: *grumble*  I'm sure there was a good reason, but still...
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2019-11-22T12:22:03Z jcowan: In C3 all macro systems were in eggs, essentially outboard from Chicken, so macros were pluggable but not very well integrated in terms of error messages etc..
2019-11-22T12:22:41Z jcowan: now syntax-rules and ER are in the core, and it's not *quite* possible to implement syntax-case on top of classic ER unless it gets some patches
2019-11-22T12:23:10Z jcowan: I've asked Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen to look into this and he's said he will if he can.
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2019-11-22T14:13:40Z sarna: hello, how do I escape a backslash in a string?
2019-11-22T14:19:26Z sarna: oh, I got confused :)  two backslashes work
2019-11-22T14:25:02Z nerdypepper: you can use raw strings with r#"string"#
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2019-11-22T14:25:16Z nerdypepper: oh wait, this is #scheme, my bad
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2019-11-22T15:13:53Z jcowan: Yes, no raw strings in Scheme -- yet.
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2019-11-22T15:57:45Z gwatt: jcowan: have you considered raw strings in any serious manner?
2019-11-22T15:58:47Z jcowan: All lexical syntax issues are being postponed to the end of the process so that people can change their `read` implementations once and only once.
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2019-11-22T16:02:22Z jcowan: gwatt: are you interested in writing a SRFI or pre-SRFI for it?
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2019-11-22T16:03:19Z gwatt: jcowan: Not particularly. I think that current strings are good enough.
2019-11-22T16:04:07Z gwatt: They are multiline and I don't see escaping as a big issue.
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2019-11-22T16:05:30Z jcowan: I normally use them in Python for regex strings only, but with regex combinators we don't need that, hurrah.
2019-11-22T16:06:25Z gwatt: Also, I'm not even sure what the raw string quote character should be. " ' and ` are all taken. #" maybe?
2019-11-22T16:07:27Z gwatt: I didn't know python had raw strings...
2019-11-22T16:07:29Z jcowan: #r"foo" maybe
2019-11-22T16:07:53Z jcowan: it's r"foo" in Python, but of course that would be a symbol followed by a string for us
2019-11-22T16:08:21Z jcowan: """ gives a multiline but not raw string
2019-11-22T16:08:43Z gwatt: is r""" a multiline raw string?
2019-11-22T16:09:16Z gwatt: yes, it turns out I can just open a python repl instead of asking ...
2019-11-22T16:10:37Z jcowan chuckles
2019-11-22T16:11:02Z gwatt: jcowan: Not that these are mutually exclusive, but I would rather see some simple string interpolation
2019-11-22T16:18:06Z jcowan: Yes, I've thought about a less exuberant version of SRFI 109, which has everything including the kitchen sink in it
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2019-11-22T16:20:30Z gwatt: srfi-109 looks like it requires extensive reader changes.
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2019-11-22T16:26:54Z jcowan: Yes
2019-11-22T16:31:07Z jcowan: The S-expression-based format proposal I'm putting together provides for all sorts of useful types: the primitives are lists, numbers, bytevectors in {1037af} format, symbols, and lists.  To get anything else, you precede one of these with a #foo tag (some tags, like #t, #f, and #null, aren't followed by anything)
2019-11-22T16:31:35Z jcowan: thus "2019-11-22" is a string, #date"2019-11-22" is a date object
2019-11-22T16:32:01Z jcowan: I am not proposing this as a syntax for the language, however
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2019-11-22T16:32:54Z jcowan: it incorporates the existing #e, #i, etc.
2019-11-22T16:33:33Z jcowan: note that #(...) is just the null tag
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2019-11-22T17:45:52Z erkin: I keep seeing "transcript-on/-off not implemented" under "R5RS nonconformance" sections of Scheme manuals.
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2019-11-22T17:46:02Z erkin: I'm beginning to wonder if any Schemes implement them at all.
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2019-11-22T17:51:21Z gwatt: chez scheme seems to
2019-11-22T17:51:52Z erkin: Huh
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2019-11-22T18:02:22Z zig: do you know a thread-safe hash-table that does lock the whole hash-table?
2019-11-22T18:12:31Z civodul: zig: that's going to be very implementation-dependent
2019-11-22T18:12:39Z civodul: weak hash tables in Guile are thread-safe
2019-11-22T18:23:34Z Riastradh: erkin: MIT Scheme does but I am not sure anyone ever uses it and it's kind of silly.
2019-11-22T18:23:51Z Riastradh: It's an interactive feature of a pedagogical tool; I have no idea why it is in the standard.
2019-11-22T18:24:11Z jcowan: What is a pedaogical tool?  Hash tables?
2019-11-22T18:24:26Z Riastradh: transcript-on/off
2019-11-22T18:25:00Z Riastradh: Hash tables are a pedagogical tool because they're horrible and complicated and so they introduce you to lots of probability theory with bins and balls and integrals and expectations and randomness.
2019-11-22T18:27:17Z jcowan: Well, in that sense everything is a pedagogical tool
2019-11-22T18:28:10Z jcowan: A school is a log with a student on one end and Mark Hopkins on the other
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2019-11-22T19:16:09Z zig: civodul: the good news it that since I based my R7RS hash-table on SRFI-69, I can use them :)
2019-11-22T19:16:11Z zig: tx
2019-11-22T19:16:34Z zig: sure it is implementation specific since it rely on threads. I did not think about it.
2019-11-22T19:17:46Z erkin: Is there a way to escape ellipses in nested syntax-rules?
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2019-11-22T19:22:59Z gwatt: erkin: (... ...)
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2019-11-22T19:23:56Z erkin: Thanks!
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2019-11-24T01:20:28Z ScaredySquirrel: Hi where are some free scheme textbooks?
2019-11-24T01:31:51Z pjb: https://schemers.org
2019-11-24T01:32:02Z pjb: https://schemers.org/Documents/#all-texts
2019-11-24T01:32:04Z pjb: etc
2019-11-24T01:34:43Z la_zaifir: ScaredySquirrel: c.f. /topic as well.
2019-11-24T01:36:07Z ScaredySquirrel: ok I just found one and most seem inaccessible and am still looking
2019-11-24T01:36:11Z ScaredySquirrel: https://htdp.org
2019-11-24T01:37:11Z la_zaifir: ScaredySquirrel: Which ones are dead?
2019-11-24T01:38:32Z ScaredySquirrel: seems like most
2019-11-24T01:38:55Z ScaredySquirrel: and some are just in francais which I do not speak
2019-11-24T01:39:04Z la_zaifir: wat
2019-11-24T01:39:23Z la_zaifir: All the current topic links work for me.  AFAICT there's no French, either...
2019-11-24T01:39:59Z la_zaifir: Maybe pjb is MITMing you :)
2019-11-24T01:40:42Z pjb: ScaredySquirrel: learn French!
2019-11-24T01:41:05Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdfwQXJ0ZVM in 5 days!
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2019-11-24T02:00:46Z mdhughes: TSPL 4 isn't listed: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/
2019-11-24T02:03:41Z la_zaifir: It's in the topic.
2019-11-24T02:04:05Z mdhughes: There's also Realm of Racket: https://nostarch.com/realmofracket based on http://landoflisp.com
2019-11-24T02:04:22Z mdhughes: But not on schemers.org, which could use a cleanup.
2019-11-24T02:08:04Z la_zaifir: Yes, a lot of stuff on that site is quite out of date.
2019-11-24T02:09:06Z la_zaifir: There's only one item from the current decade on that list (2010).
2019-11-24T02:09:29Z mdhughes: Gonna be last decade in just 38 days.
2019-11-24T02:10:53Z la_zaifir: Yeah o_O
2019-11-24T02:14:14Z mdhughes: Gerbil https://cons.io isn't listed on implementations. Hm, maintainer Shriram is just on email?
2019-11-24T02:20:43Z mdhughes: Ah, community wiki at least I can edit.
2019-11-24T02:28:12Z mdhughes: Lot of stuff obsolete on http://community.schemewiki.org/  and no R7RS updates. Might be good if everyone grabs one page and fixes it.
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2019-11-24T08:34:00Z erkin: la_zaifir, pjb: Some links in the topic appear to be broken if the IRC client thinks the closing quote is a part of the URL.
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2019-11-24T08:37:29Z erkin: Huh, I didn't realise how there are so many Scheme textbooks in German and French.
2019-11-24T08:39:33Z erkin: Also it doesn't help that a lot of the links there are just links to purchase dead tree copies of said textbooks. Most newbies just want an online guide to follow through.
2019-11-24T08:40:21Z wasamasa: maybe we should put a pirate icon next to it to give them a hint
2019-11-24T08:40:44Z erkin: haha
2019-11-24T08:40:53Z erkin: Quite a few links are dead too.
2019-11-24T08:41:09Z erkin: Including readscheme.org itself.
2019-11-24T08:41:19Z erkin: It would help to replace them with Wayback Machine links.
2019-11-24T08:43:51Z erkin: Who's running schemers.org? Maybe we can organise a community effort to clean it up.
2019-11-24T08:45:17Z wasamasa: whoever is running readscheme.org cannot be reached
2019-11-24T08:45:25Z wasamasa: the machine hosting it is still online
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2019-11-24T08:45:57Z erkin: Maybe we should set up a fresh new website then.
2019-11-24T08:48:58Z wasamasa: no idea about schemers.org, but at least that one seems to receive updates
2019-11-24T08:49:05Z wasamasa: srfi.schemers.org is tied to it
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2019-11-24T08:50:07Z erkin: Oh Shriram Krishnamurthi is running it.
2019-11-24T08:50:28Z wasamasa: that explains the .shtml links
2019-11-24T08:50:31Z erkin: Although the contact page was last updated in 2003...
2019-11-24T08:52:17Z erkin: At any rate, I'll start collecting working links to available documentation and textbooks for Scheme around the web.
2019-11-24T08:54:40Z erkin: Although I reckon most people learning programming languages these days aren't interested in reading textbooks. SICP is a strange exception.
2019-11-24T09:01:01Z weinholt: http://olduse.net/  comp.lang.scheme with a 30 year delay
2019-11-24T09:13:09Z zig: fun
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2019-11-24T14:26:57Z sugarwren: mit-scheme appears to support threads (it has at least the procedures current-thread, thread? and create-thread) but I can't find any further information in its docs
2019-11-24T14:27:57Z sugarwren: it's most recent reference manual references threads twice, when talking about dynamic binding. And that's it
2019-11-24T14:28:25Z zig: what is the question?
2019-11-24T14:28:41Z sugarwren: where can I find documentation about mit-scheme's threading
2019-11-24T14:28:57Z zig: ask another question
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2019-11-24T14:29:37Z sugarwren: bit of a non-sequitur
2019-11-24T14:30:49Z zig: you can find more information about threading in the code of mit-scheme or the mailing list. Or ask a specific question threads.
2019-11-24T14:30:56Z zig: you can find more information about threading in the code of mit-scheme or the mailing list. Or ask a specific question about threads.
2019-11-24T14:32:16Z sugarwren: I don't really have a specific question, I just wanted to have an overview of what mit-scheme offers in terms of multi-processing
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2019-11-24T14:32:37Z sugarwren: in particular, it is suspicious that these procedures exist but are apparently not documented
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2019-11-24T16:56:52Z Riastradh: zig: What sugarwren was asking is entirely reasonable to ask, no need to robotically insist on a different question.
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2019-11-24T17:10:12Z jcowan: The best thing to do is probably to get a DNS record under schemers.org, say readscheme.schemers.org, and make it point to the still-operating Machine Formerly Known As readscheme.org.
2019-11-24T17:11:11Z jcowan: The MIT Scheme system is known to be underdocumented (better than Stalin, worse than Racket)
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2019-11-24T17:45:57Z zig: ok
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2019-11-24T18:00:33Z erkin: Aren't Stalin and Racket the opposite ends of the documentedness scale?
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2019-11-24T18:01:59Z zig: that is the point of the expression.
2019-11-24T18:05:49Z zig: utf-8 trivia: according to wikipedia there is 1,112,064 valid code points in utf8, that is around 1Mb
2019-11-24T18:06:41Z zig: when 1 valid code points = 1 bit
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2019-11-24T18:20:18Z farcas82: what is the most portable scheme implementation available? i want to study a clean implementation
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2019-11-24T18:23:06Z farcas82: would chibi-scheme fit my requirement?
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2019-11-24T18:23:31Z la_zaifir: farcas82: What do you mean by "most portable scheme implementation"?
2019-11-24T18:24:31Z farcas82: that runs on a wide range of systems (cpu+os)
2019-11-24T18:25:37Z la_zaifir: farcas82: OK, that kind of portability.  Yeah, Chibi is a good choice, since it's basically just a C library.
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2019-11-24T18:28:24Z farcas82: how much of a slowdown should i expect when coding in scheme as opposed to C using idiomatic code?
2019-11-24T18:28:48Z jcowan: Depends on which Scheme implementation
2019-11-24T18:28:53Z jcowan: erkin: That's what I meant, yes
2019-11-24T18:29:48Z erkin: farcas82: Entirely depends on the implementation and the optimisation tricks.
2019-11-24T18:30:16Z farcas82: i'm doing mostly numerical and symbolic math
2019-11-24T18:30:17Z la_zaifir: farcas82: Don't worry about it.  If you have a specific problem and you've determined that it's Scheme that isn't fast enough, then worry!
2019-11-24T18:30:20Z farcas82: think CAS
2019-11-24T18:30:35Z erkin: Once again, it depends. :-P
2019-11-24T18:30:47Z farcas82: :/
2019-11-24T18:30:53Z erkin: If push comes to shove, you can drop in tricks to coerce your implementation to be more performant.
2019-11-24T18:31:17Z farcas82: what is the gold standard implementation in terms of implementation performance?
2019-11-24T18:31:19Z farcas82: chicken?
2019-11-24T18:31:28Z erkin: eg instead of using the generic + operation, you can use fx+ (fixnum addition) so that the compiler knows it's always going to expect integers.
2019-11-24T18:31:43Z erkin: I think Chez is the fastest right now, followed by Gambit.
2019-11-24T18:31:47Z sugarwren: farcas82, chez is the gold standard for performance
2019-11-24T18:31:48Z farcas82: does it report type mismatch?
2019-11-24T18:31:55Z farcas82: in case of fx+
2019-11-24T18:32:00Z jcowan: farcas82: I'd say that, with particular exceptions, essentially all Schemes are portable in that sense: they are written in highly portable languages (C, C++, Java, C#, Haskell), and most of the compiled versions themselves compile to something portable.  Only Chez, MIT, Larceny, and Vicare compile direct to machine language.
2019-11-24T18:32:00Z la_zaifir: farcas82: See the benchmarks https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2019-11-24T18:32:10Z erkin: Yes, it expects fixnums.
2019-11-24T18:32:18Z erkin: And it will complain if it receives flonums.
2019-11-24T18:32:44Z erkin: But it's always better to write your program cleanly, and later introduce such optimisations.
2019-11-24T18:32:47Z farcas82: thanks for that benchmarks link
2019-11-24T18:33:04Z farcas82: i'm ok with incrementally adding type information
2019-11-24T18:33:09Z farcas82: is that possible?
2019-11-24T18:33:42Z erkin: Well, sure, but fx/fl arithmetic operations are sorta rare in this aspect. Most procedures (eg length) aren't generic.
2019-11-24T18:34:05Z erkin: Actual gradual typing is something Racket does (Typed Racket) if you're into that kind of thing.
2019-11-24T18:34:33Z farcas82: racket seems kind of too big to understand
2019-11-24T18:34:57Z erkin: Most of the Racket libraries are very specialised stuff most people won't ever need.
2019-11-24T18:35:05Z erkin: Well, maybe not most, but you get my point.
2019-11-24T18:35:16Z farcas82: ok
2019-11-24T18:35:21Z farcas82: i think i'll go with chibi
2019-11-24T18:35:29Z erkin: You can very well carve out your specific needs from it.
2019-11-24T18:35:30Z farcas82: then expand from there to other implementations as needed
2019-11-24T18:35:55Z farcas82: the thing is that i expect having to implement some of it myself
2019-11-24T18:36:10Z farcas82: because i plan to port it to my (future) kernel :)
2019-11-24T18:36:20Z farcas82: currently it's just a toy
2019-11-24T18:36:26Z farcas82: but one day... :p
2019-11-24T18:36:30Z erkin: OS kernel?
2019-11-24T18:36:32Z la_zaifir: If you do, you should show your work here.
2019-11-24T18:36:38Z erkin: Yeah, sounds interesting.
2019-11-24T18:36:54Z farcas82: the kernel will be mostly language agnostic
2019-11-24T18:37:00Z erkin: Loko Scheme has some very low-level stuff like syscalls and systems drivers.
2019-11-24T18:37:04Z farcas82: because i will use message passing actors
2019-11-24T18:37:10Z erkin: Like Mach?
2019-11-24T18:37:23Z farcas82: like erlang
2019-11-24T18:37:34Z jcowan: There's already a Scheme that runs within the Linux kernel, but it's probably bit-rotted by now.
2019-11-24T18:37:35Z farcas82: share-nothing
2019-11-24T18:37:38Z jcowan: And another that runs inside gcc
2019-11-24T18:38:10Z farcas82: i want to complete the kernel once for allt
2019-11-24T18:38:23Z farcas82: then devote my time to my favorite part, the much neglected userland
2019-11-24T18:38:39Z farcas82: so many os projects involve just a kernel and a gnu toolchain
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2019-11-24T18:42:24Z erkin: It saves you from a lot of hassle though.
2019-11-24T18:42:55Z erkin: Everyone just writes a microkernel, then writes a barebones C compiler, then bootstraps GCC on it, then ports all other programs written in C.
2019-11-24T18:43:22Z jcowan: http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations aka "the fairly complete list" gives you basic info about all the Schemes known to exist (recently)
2019-11-24T18:43:26Z farcas82: i will port gnu tools too
2019-11-24T18:43:36Z erkin: It's a lot of hassle to write your own optimising compiler, and a whole toolchain for it, to build a whole userland.
2019-11-24T18:43:41Z farcas82: but i'll have a separate set of utilities
2019-11-24T18:43:46Z farcas82: that are coded in scheme
2019-11-24T18:44:15Z erkin: jcowan: What's the Scheme in Linux called?
2019-11-24T18:44:16Z farcas82: i will try to avoid namespace conflict with gnu tools
2019-11-24T18:44:19Z jcowan: and https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ImplementationContrasts.md is an index page for a whole lot of comparison pages on specific points
2019-11-24T18:44:57Z jcowan: erkin: Schemix.  However, it's been untouched since 2003 and would probably need work.
2019-11-24T18:45:20Z jcowan: Movitz CL isn't a Scheme but is designed to work on bare metal
2019-11-24T18:46:20Z farcas82: i'm not interested in working with scheme on bare metal
2019-11-24T18:46:23Z erkin: Have you seen Loko Scheme?
2019-11-24T18:46:25Z farcas82: i'll use assembly for that
2019-11-24T18:49:18Z farcas82: i'm interesting in using scheme mostly for tools as "LS"/"DIR"/"CP"/"COPY" and the like
2019-11-24T18:50:45Z jcowan: Those are I/O bound, so you don't need all-out performance.  Chez is fast but comes with a big runtime, which is a disadvantage for little utils
2019-11-24T18:51:07Z jcowan: Gambit and Chicken would both be good choices, as they compile to C with minimal runtime.
2019-11-24T18:51:16Z farcas82: right
2019-11-24T18:51:41Z jcowan: Chicken has the best library of the three
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2019-11-24T20:05:14Z jcowan: I should add that Loko is also machine-language (not just bare metal, also runs on Linux) but requires a 64-bit ABI, whereas Larceny requires a 32-bit ABI.
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2019-11-24T20:18:32Z JalepenoX: Hello
2019-11-24T20:19:01Z jcowan: hey ho JalepenoX
2019-11-24T20:19:35Z JalepenoX: Kinda Stuck on this problem
2019-11-24T20:19:36Z JalepenoX: https://paste.debian.net/1117754/
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2019-11-24T20:27:13Z jcowan: Do you understand what "let" is for?
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2019-11-24T20:29:14Z [rg]: assignment?
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2019-11-24T20:31:29Z JalepenoX: yeah independent study.
2019-11-24T20:32:07Z JalepenoX: It's "Boring Exercises" 7.1 from "Simply Scheme"
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2019-11-24T20:35:15Z JalepenoX: This is what I came up with.
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2019-11-24T20:38:06Z Riastradh: Larceny is 32-bit only?  Yikes.  I thought MIT Scheme was late to the party...
2019-11-24T20:38:16Z JalepenoX: I looked up the answer, one issue was was that I thought vowel? was a primitive procedure.
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2019-11-24T20:48:33Z erkin: Isn't Larceny kinda dead anyway?
2019-11-24T20:49:43Z pfdietz: Which schemes, if any, go through LLVM?
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2019-11-24T21:05:35Z erkin: I think at one stage there was an LLVM backend for Bigloo.
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2019-11-24T21:22:33Z jcowan: No Scheme is dead unless the author says it is, and even then, don't be too sure.  The Stalin community is incredibly dysfunctional (not even a mailing list) and the author has abandoned it, but those who use it, swear by it.
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2019-11-24T21:23:01Z jcowan: Riastradh: Native compilers are always going to be harder to convert to new ABIs.
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2019-11-24T21:23:46Z Riastradh: jcowan: ...yes, I know, speaking as the person who brought MIT Scheme into the 64-bit world!  Still, I figured it would become a priority at some point if Larceny is still under development.
2019-11-24T21:24:03Z jcowan: Well, there is Petit Larceny, which compiles to C, so that will do if necessary.
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2019-11-24T21:24:21Z jcowan: (not to be confused with Petite Chez)
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2019-11-24T21:27:47Z pfdietz: Is anyone fuzzing their Schemes, particularly the compilers?  If so, I'm curious how useful it's been.
2019-11-24T21:27:50Z jcowan: Vicare doesn't have an ARM ABI, only x86 and x86_64, and probably that's all there will ever be.
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2019-11-24T22:03:45Z Riastradh: For a while I thought the same would be true of MIT Scheme!
2019-11-24T22:18:22Z jcowan nods
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2019-11-25T04:11:12Z lockywolf__: I'm still super confused. Can someone help? In SICP, on the figure 3.8, there is a frame with "amount:50". 1)Why is it not named as, say, E2? 2)There is code right below this frame, however on Figure 3.9 there is an arrow pointing to a frame from the bottom. Is it true that a frame may have only one code associated with it at a time? (the code being executed) If yes, then how to I draw arrows (which may very well be pointing to this frame)?
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2019-11-25T04:13:52Z lockywolf__: Does the "body" on the Figure 3.8 have exactly the same code as the code below "amount:50"? Is it a copy of this code, or exactly the same code (same memory)?
2019-11-25T04:26:21Z jcowan: Question for anyone:  When you think of an alist, do you think by default of one with atomic keys that can be tested with eqv?, or of one with keys that aren't necessarily atomic and are testd with equal?
2019-11-25T04:30:41Z siraben: jcowan: I alists where the keys are tested with eqv? , generally
2019-11-25T04:30:49Z siraben: Can't reduce the last time where I needed non-atomic keys.
2019-11-25T04:30:54Z siraben: s/reduce/recall
2019-11-25T04:31:25Z siraben: (although, in a Haskell setting I prefer maixmum polymorphism, so the keys are polymorphic in the typeclass Eq
2019-11-25T04:31:33Z siraben: )
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2019-11-25T04:38:46Z lockywolf__: jcowan, I usually think of "equal"
2019-11-25T04:40:57Z pjb: jcowan: some languages have memq and assq; trivially defined when needed.
2019-11-25T04:49:35Z mdhughes: jcowan: Depends. I mostly expect symbol keys, so would use assq, but if it's rando content then assoc.
2019-11-25T04:50:29Z mdhughes: pjb: Scheme always has assq, assv, assoc.
2019-11-25T04:52:16Z mdhughes: Dunno that I've ever perpetrated an alist with number keys where assv would be useful.
2019-11-25T04:53:02Z jcowan: I always use eqv? rather than eq?, because I consider eq? to be a performance hack to be used only if it's proved that the code needs it, whereas eqv? is Scheme's true identity procedure.
2019-11-25T04:53:07Z jcowan: (Same with EQL in CL.)
2019-11-25T04:54:15Z mdhughes: I suppose, but it's like "is" in Python; if you know the symbol's a unique pointer, it's safe enough.
2019-11-25T04:56:00Z jcowan: I'm writing a pre-SRFI for dictionary interfaces, essentially a reified type class similar to comparators.
2019-11-25T04:56:43Z jcowan: If you don't supply an interface when calling the dict-* functions, it tries all the types it knows about, and if it can see that the dict is an alist, it has to use some particular equality predicate for it.
2019-11-25T04:56:47Z mdhughes: Well, eqv? is useless for strings, which are the most common thing I put in any dict-type interface...
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2019-11-25T04:57:11Z jcowan: (There are explicit dictionary interfaces for eq, eqv, and equal alists, as well as alists based on a user-chosen predicate.
2019-11-25T04:57:27Z jcowan: mdhughes: Why strings and not symbols?
2019-11-25T04:58:00Z mdhughes: Generally I'm pulling stuff from files or network, and interning them into symbols is wasteful.
2019-11-25T04:58:28Z mdhughes: If it's all internal to the program then it's probably symbols.
2019-11-25T04:58:45Z jcowan: Are you sure that the interning cost is greater than the lookup cost?
2019-11-25T04:59:23Z mdhughes: No, but I can test that.
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2019-11-25T04:59:40Z jcowan: The results would be interesting
2019-11-25T05:00:05Z lockywolf_: But interning is implementation-dependent, isn't it?
2019-11-25T05:00:56Z lockywolf_: Whereas a lookup is expected to be O(n) in any case?
2019-11-25T05:05:26Z mdhughes: ./wp-scm < words.txt > /dev/null  3.82s user 0.07s system 99% cpu 3.921 total
2019-11-25T05:05:31Z mdhughes: ./wp-sym-scm < words.txt > /dev/null  8.41s user 0.09s system 99% cpu 8.520 total
2019-11-25T05:05:47Z mdhughes: So over twice as slow at the wp benchmark by doing interning.
2019-11-25T05:07:52Z mdhughes: That's on Chicken, csc -O5 -static -fixnum-arithmetic -o wp-sym-scm wp-sym.scm
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2019-11-25T05:13:05Z mdhughes: Putting on profiling, the symbol version for some reason made 75878 weak pairs which are not in the string version.
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2019-11-25T05:19:25Z mdhughes: lockywolf_: Hashing a string costs O(n) by length, hashing a symbol is O(1) - usually just the pointer. But lookup in a hash-table is O(log n) by hash size, and some string impls cache the hash result. Only a raw alist would be O(n).
2019-11-25T05:20:39Z mdhughes: (little slow tonight, I'm solving other household problems in between getting back to the keyboard)
2019-11-25T05:25:26Z lockywolf_: mdhughes, that is if the implementation uses a hash table to store symbols
2019-11-25T05:26:36Z lockywolf_: I'm not saying that interning is by definition faster or slower. I am saying that it is implementation-dependent, and not portable.
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2019-11-25T05:28:46Z mdhughes: I think it's unlikely that it'd ever be faster. But at least in the one data point we have, it's 46% as fast.
2019-11-25T05:34:58Z mdhughes: Also you might be confused about where I'm using a hash-table, that's in the application. The symbols are just raw pointers, which is why they're so fast to hash, but interning them has to assign them to a hash-table or tree internally. That's what those weak pairs likely are.
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2019-11-25T08:03:34Z lockywolf: jcowan, I have a question about the environments pre-srfi (https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/EnvironmentsMIT.md). Why is there no function to get the children of an environment? Memory overhead?
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2019-11-25T13:25:35Z jcowan: lockywolf:  ask Riastradh why MIT doesn't provide environment-children
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2019-11-25T13:53:34Z Riastradh: jcowan: What is environment-children?
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2019-11-25T17:06:17Z jcowan: Riastradh: A procedure that given a Scheme environment foo will return a list of environments whose parent is foo.
2019-11-25T17:06:35Z jcowan: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Environment-Operations.html
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2019-11-26T00:14:04Z minusoneplusone: heya
2019-11-26T00:14:20Z minusoneplusone: im trying to implement a while loop as a macro in my still young subset of r5rs i'm implementing
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2019-11-26T00:55:15Z Riastradh: jcowan: That'd be an awful lot of work to maintain!  Every lambda evaluated would have to destructively modify its parent environment to notify it that a new child has been born, and then you'd have to deal with GC'ing weak references to children, &c.
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2019-11-26T01:06:56Z jcowan: lockywolf: ^^
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2019-11-26T04:27:34Z lockywolf_: Why does this work?
2019-11-26T04:27:35Z lockywolf_: http://paste.debian.net/1117986
2019-11-26T04:31:18Z siraben: lockywolf_: make-bomb returns a closure (i.e. inner-bomb) that takes no arguments
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2019-11-26T04:31:46Z siraben: So acc-killer is the same as inner-bomb, and when you call acc-killer with no arguments, you're calling inner-bomb with no arguments.
2019-11-26T04:32:24Z siraben: So the value of acc is changed from #t to #f at line 7, (acc-killer)
2019-11-26T04:32:50Z lockywolf__: Well, when I define make-bomb, it knows nothing about acc.
2019-11-26T04:33:34Z siraben: Because the body of make-bomb isn't eval'd yet.
2019-11-26T04:33:42Z siraben: And the body of inner-bomb isn't eval'd yet as well
2019-11-26T04:33:43Z lockywolf__: So, basically, every library I load can screw my code?
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2019-11-26T04:34:12Z siraben: If there's a name collision. Modern Schemes have modules systems to help alleviate this
2019-11-26T04:34:20Z siraben: module systems*
2019-11-26T04:34:24Z lockywolf__: (define my-variable 5) (some-library-function) may very easily destroys my-variable
2019-11-26T04:34:29Z lockywolf__: *destroy
2019-11-26T04:34:36Z lockywolf__: ouch
2019-11-26T04:35:05Z siraben: Right, so the module containing the library function better have variables visible only to functions in the module itself.
2019-11-26T04:36:16Z lockywolf__: Immediately raises scheme to the second place in my own "the most dangerous languages in the world" list.
2019-11-26T04:40:07Z lockywolf__: I can't force library writers to use modules.
2019-11-26T04:57:04Z mdhughes: You *can*, and probably should. You can also name your globals distinctly so nothing else will collide with them.
2019-11-26T04:58:42Z mdhughes: And do as little with global scope as possible, anyway. If state only exists in a structure you pass around, nothing else can affect that state.
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2019-11-26T06:37:38Z lockywolf__: mdhughes, this concerns no only the global scope, but every scope where you call a foreign function
2019-11-26T06:38:54Z lockywolf__: I don't think that naming anything consistently changes anything. Especially because static checkers can't possibly read my mind.
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2019-11-26T06:39:35Z lockywolf__: If there was a language feature like (make-global a), then it would help.
2019-11-26T06:40:15Z lockywolf__: Or, rather (defvar a)
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2019-11-26T06:42:06Z lockywolf__: "probably should" is, like, how? point a gun at them?
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2019-11-26T06:49:51Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: What do you expect?  An error at (set! acc #f) if acc isn't bound?
2019-11-26T06:50:31Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: Err, isn't bound by the innermost lambda?  How would that work?
2019-11-26T06:52:16Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: And a foreign function that mutates an identifier because "it's probably safe to assume the caller hasn't used it" is a terribly written function.
2019-11-26T06:52:39Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, it's a function with a typo
2019-11-26T06:53:02Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: Where?
2019-11-26T06:53:44Z lockywolf__: in (set! local_variable0 #t) when you wanted to write (set! local_variable1 #t)
2019-11-26T06:54:37Z lockywolf__: And literally nothing sells you that local_variable0 five layers of frames above
2019-11-26T06:54:41Z lockywolf__: *tells
2019-11-26T06:54:46Z la_zaifir: Right, but this is the danger of typos.
2019-11-26T06:55:07Z lockywolf__: Pretty damn big danger to me
2019-11-26T06:55:17Z la_zaifir: Name a programming language in which it's not possible to screw things up that way.
2019-11-26T06:55:29Z lockywolf__: C?
2019-11-26T06:56:30Z la_zaifir: Perhaps not mutation, but reference, certainly.  x = foop  /* oops I meant `foo', but it turns out `foop' was used a few blocks up */
2019-11-26T06:56:51Z lockywolf__: only within the same function
2019-11-26T06:57:03Z lockywolf__: unless you mark foop as global
2019-11-26T06:58:52Z la_zaifir: My point is that identifier typos will always be a problem.  You can avoid *really* screwing up in Scheme by not mutating identifiers you haven't bound.
2019-11-26T06:59:30Z lockywolf__: Answering how exactly I would like the system to complain at line3: "Error: acc not defined"
2019-11-26T06:59:38Z lockywolf__: ahh,
2019-11-26T06:59:53Z la_zaifir: But it is defined when that expression is evaluated.
2019-11-26T07:00:14Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, and that's exactly what makes it dangerous
2019-11-26T07:00:31Z la_zaifir: So how is the system supposed to know that that's an error?
2019-11-26T07:00:42Z la_zaifir: "error: acc is defined" !!!
2019-11-26T07:00:52Z lockywolf__: ?
2019-11-26T07:01:15Z lockywolf__: There is no "acc" within the sexp containing (set! acc ... )
2019-11-26T07:01:53Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: Right.  But (set! acc #f) is evaluated at your line 7.  In that context, acc is defined.
2019-11-26T07:02:21Z lockywolf__: It is _read_ much earlier than that
2019-11-26T07:02:23Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: There's not really any way to catch that you didn't intend that.
2019-11-26T07:02:48Z lockywolf__: Intend what? At the moment when line 3 is read, there is no acc.
2019-11-26T07:02:53Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: But it's not an error.
2019-11-26T07:03:01Z lockywolf__: And that is very dangerous
2019-11-26T07:03:20Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: This is fundamental in Scheme--identifiers not currently defined can appear in lambda expressions.
2019-11-26T07:05:04Z lockywolf__: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-11-26T07:09:16Z lockywolf__: It just makes me think that a lot of effort spent on making things safer, in particular only defining syntax-rules, not any other stronger macros, look like trying to install a steel door in a wooden house
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2019-11-26T07:09:26Z lockywolf__: (in the standard, I mean)
2019-11-26T07:09:50Z Riastradh: That's why `module systems' matter...
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2019-11-26T07:14:04Z lockywolf__: I can imagine a facility for calling foreign functions which parses them before evaluating, and looks for undefined things.
2019-11-26T07:14:32Z lockywolf__: Or, rather, for name clashes.
2019-11-26T07:15:30Z Riastradh: You should look into how module systems like R7RS libraries work!
2019-11-26T07:15:56Z la_zaifir: Yeah, modules essentially fix the unexpected capture problem.
2019-11-26T07:16:25Z Riastradh: It turns out that people have been worried about this for decades, and figured out ways to deal with it, so there's lots of prior art you can study.
2019-11-26T07:19:23Z lockywolf__: Well, a module system is a noble thing.
2019-11-26T07:20:04Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: What do you want, fines for hackers who screw up their namespaces?  The tools exist, we can use them!
2019-11-26T07:20:04Z lockywolf__: Still, I don't understand how inventing a module system instead of just prohibiting to use undefined identifiers is a good solution.
2019-11-26T07:20:50Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: An identifier is undefined when it's evaluated, not when it's read.
2019-11-26T07:20:51Z Riastradh: ALL PROGRAMS MUST BE WRITTEN IN LINEAR TOPOLOGICAL ORDERING
2019-11-26T07:21:22Z lockywolf__: Littering namespaces is a different thing. Also very important, but different.
2019-11-26T07:21:48Z Riastradh: NO STRONGLY CONNECTED COMPONENTS NEITHER
2019-11-26T07:22:05Z la_zaifir: rudybot: Neat und tidy!
2019-11-26T07:22:06Z rudybot: la_zaifir: But writing a neat und tidy changelog is still better than rewriting history to be neat und tidy, and that seems to be the popular (if horrible) solution.
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2019-11-26T07:24:46Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, what's good about that?
2019-11-26T07:24:58Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: What?
2019-11-26T07:25:17Z mdhughes: Here: http://paste.debian.net/1117993
2019-11-26T07:25:40Z mdhughes: There is no trivial way to break module encapsulation.
2019-11-26T07:26:48Z lockywolf__: You said "An identifier is undefined when it's evaluated, not when it's read". I initially wanted to say that this is a very dangerous practice, but perhaps it has some benefits that I don't see. Can you tell me?
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2019-11-26T07:30:01Z la_zaifir: What I should have said is "_unbound_ when it's evaluated, not when it's read".  But it's almost a tautology--to be "unbound" means that you've searched for a binding an identifier and come up empty, thus, you have to evaluate it to determine that it's unbound.
2019-11-26T07:31:09Z la_zaifir: It's not meaningful to talk about unbound, unevaluated identifiers.  Maybe in a language with declarations.
2019-11-26T07:31:29Z la_zaifir: But it's late here and I'm probably not making much sense.
2019-11-26T07:31:48Z lockywolf__: Sorry, I don't understand.
2019-11-26T07:33:08Z la_zaifir: You can't determine that a name is unbound until it's evaluated.  And the body of a lambda isn't evaluated until the corresponding procedure is applied.
2019-11-26T07:34:28Z lockywolf__: I don't see how evaluation matters here at all. I am only saying anything about read-time.
2019-11-26T07:35:01Z Riastradh: lockywolf__: You should really look into prior art here to see how existing module systems work.
2019-11-26T07:35:04Z la_zaifir: The point is you can't figure this out at read time.
2019-11-26T07:37:24Z lockywolf__: Well, I can easily spot the problem on line 3. What makes a reader different from me in this respect?
2019-11-26T07:39:35Z lockywolf__: Riastradh, I don't understand what you are saying. I never expressed doubt in the usefulness of module systems. And I don't doubt that they help to make this issue less significant.
2019-11-26T07:40:09Z Riastradh: Why are you concerned, then, if you are aware that there is a widely understood resolution in practice?
2019-11-26T07:40:12Z lockywolf__: I don't understand how they are connected to the fact that scheme allows using identifiers before they are defined.
2019-11-26T07:40:49Z lockywolf__: This looks like a design decision. I understand its drawbacks. I do not understand its benefits.
2019-11-26T07:41:15Z Riastradh: lockywolf__: Have you ever tried reading the Bourbaki textbooks?
2019-11-26T07:42:10Z lockywolf__: No. My reading list tells me to have a look there though, but I don't think I can really understand them now.
2019-11-26T07:42:24Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: I don't think "define" means what you think it means here.  From the standard: "A variable definition binds one or more identifiers and specifies an initial value for each of them."
2019-11-26T07:42:33Z Riastradh: They are a collection of extremely rigorous math textbooks by a French collective named Nicolas Bourbaki.
2019-11-26T07:42:38Z lockywolf__: I know
2019-11-26T07:42:42Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: That's it.  It's a binding.  And bindings are determined when a name is evaluated.
2019-11-26T07:42:46Z Riastradh: They are somewhat idiosyncratic, and not just because they're French.
2019-11-26T07:43:03Z Riastradh: One particular idiosyncrasy is that they rigidly adhere to a rule of linear presentation.
2019-11-26T07:43:19Z lockywolf__: Riastradh, well, makes sense to me.
2019-11-26T07:43:38Z Riastradh: NO CONCEPT HITHERTO UNDEFINED is ever mentioned in them.  No `this is what you have to look forward to'.  No `this will become important later in Chapter 7'.  No `this will make sense once you have read Chapter 8'.
2019-11-26T07:44:01Z Riastradh: It turns out they are completely useless for learning math.
2019-11-26T07:44:26Z la_zaifir grins.
2019-11-26T07:44:47Z Riastradh: (And again, not just because they're French; some poor soul out there translated them into other langauges like English!)
2019-11-26T07:44:55Z lockywolf__: Riastradh, I heard that they are useless not due to being linear, but due to being too specific. But I haven't actually read them.
2019-11-26T07:45:17Z Riastradh: Sure, it's not _just_ because the presentation is dogmatically linear.
2019-11-26T07:45:44Z lockywolf__: I don't see evil in being dogmatically linear. C++ is dogmatically linear.
2019-11-26T07:45:52Z la_zaifir: And C++ is evil.
2019-11-26T07:45:53Z Riastradh: My point is that a rigid adherence to a linear presentation of concepts in strict topological order with no cyclic references is not a helpful rule to impose on anyone.
2019-11-26T07:46:06Z Riastradh: No, C++ is not dogmatically linear.
2019-11-26T07:46:15Z la_zaifir: But it *is* evil.
2019-11-26T07:47:03Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, I do not understand this quotation from the standard.
2019-11-26T07:47:14Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: What's weird about it?
2019-11-26T07:47:27Z Riastradh: Some forward declarations are necessary, but that's mostly (a) a historical artifact of early C compilers, and (b) because C++'s syntax is embedded in R'lyehian geometry.
2019-11-26T07:47:48Z lockywolf__: Riastradh, forget about C++, let's focus on C.
2019-11-26T07:48:29Z lockywolf__: I do have to mark every variable "global".
2019-11-26T07:48:41Z lockywolf__: I do have to declare functions before using them later.
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2019-11-26T07:49:26Z Riastradh: The necessity of forward declarations is a historical accident in C.  Early C compilers worked sequentially -- they did not examine the whole .c file before starting to generate code.
2019-11-26T07:49:37Z lockywolf__: Riastradh, just as people
2019-11-26T07:49:52Z lockywolf__: We read top-to bottom.
2019-11-26T07:50:09Z lockywolf__: *-
2019-11-26T07:50:45Z Riastradh: Let's suppose you see the following definition:
2019-11-26T07:50:48Z Riastradh: (define (even? x)
2019-11-26T07:50:54Z lockywolf__: Also, it is just _a declaration_. You don't have to _define_ the thing.
2019-11-26T07:50:56Z Riastradh:   (define (e? n) (or (zero? n) (o? (- n 1)))
2019-11-26T07:51:12Z Riastradh:   (define (o? n) (and (not (zero? n)) (e? (- n 1))))
2019-11-26T07:51:14Z Riastradh:   (e? x))
2019-11-26T07:51:19Z Riastradh: Does this cause you consternation?
2019-11-26T07:51:43Z lockywolf__: Depends on if both definitions fit in my field of view.
2019-11-26T07:54:06Z lockywolf__: Can't say this is a quickly parse-able definition of (even? x)
2019-11-26T07:54:58Z la_zaifir: Scheme doesn't have declarations.  So you could insist on declaring everything before use--sort of a weird approach in a functional language--or you could just use modules or the like.
2019-11-26T07:55:18Z Riastradh: Well, all I can say at this point is that mutual recursion and nonlinear presentation are often found for good reasons in nontrivial real-world programs.
2019-11-26T07:55:47Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, I do use (defvar) is Emacs Lisp.
2019-11-26T07:56:13Z Riastradh: Did you know you can (defun f () x) and then later (defvar x 42) in elisp?
2019-11-26T07:57:04Z lockywolf__: Riastradh, in Emacs Lisp, functions and variables are disjoint.
2019-11-26T07:57:19Z Riastradh: ...yes, that's not what I was illustrating there.
2019-11-26T07:57:30Z lockywolf__: Ahh, sorry.
2019-11-26T07:57:45Z lockywolf__: I am not advocating for Emacs Lisp as the best language in the world.
2019-11-26T07:57:49Z Riastradh: I was illustrating that elisp, too, lets you put the defvar after the defuns that use the variable.
2019-11-26T07:58:07Z lockywolf__: Riastradh, defvar is useless actually.
2019-11-26T07:58:26Z lockywolf__: You can ignore it completely. It is for people, not for the compiler.
2019-11-26T07:59:30Z lockywolf__: You can just (setq x 42)
2019-11-26T08:00:57Z lockywolf__: Riastradh, they are not without their power, but I don't see how they make the absence of declarations unavoidable.
2019-11-26T08:01:10Z la_zaifir has flashbacks of horrible GIMP Scheme in which every identfier is let-bound, then initialized with set!...
2019-11-26T08:04:03Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: Since lambda is the only thing that does binding in Scheme, how would you reconcile lambda with declarations?  Would _every_ lambda-bound identifier need to be declared?
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2019-11-26T08:08:23Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, I don't understand.
2019-11-26T08:08:48Z lockywolf__: In (lambda (a b c . o) ...), a b c and o can be considered declared.
2019-11-26T08:10:20Z la_zaifir: So then what needs to be declared?
2019-11-26T08:12:40Z lockywolf__: Well, if I really intended to destroy acc in the example, I would have to, maybe, (declare acc), or something.
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2019-11-26T08:15:58Z la_zaifir: In other words, your problem is with top-level definitions.
2019-11-26T08:16:27Z lockywolf__: hang on..
2019-11-26T08:17:56Z lockywolf__: http://paste.debian.net/1117996
2019-11-26T08:18:35Z lockywolf__: http://paste.debian.net/1117997
2019-11-26T08:18:41Z lockywolf__: This seems just as bad
2019-11-26T08:21:12Z lockywolf__: Every scope allows sequential definitions, doesn't it?
2019-11-26T08:22:24Z la_zaifir: Usually only at the head of lambdas.
2019-11-26T08:23:51Z la_zaifir: Internal defines are often turned into letrec*
2019-11-26T08:25:09Z la_zaifir: The things that definitions can occur at the beginning of: lambda, let and friends, let-syntax, letrec-syntax, case-lambda, parameterize, guard.
2019-11-26T08:28:21Z la_zaifir: Anyway, sleep.  Goodnight, and good luck.
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2019-11-26T08:33:34Z lockywolf__: Good luck
2019-11-26T08:35:04Z lockywolf__: Well, in chibi I get an out-of-order define when it happens not at the head of a lambda, but no error.
2019-11-26T08:35:36Z lockywolf__: But even the lambda head is enough to screw up the variables.
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2019-11-26T15:13:40Z jcowan: The language of Dijkstra's _A Discipline of Programming_ (it has a name, but I can't remember it, as it was given by others afterwards) requires every variable used in a scope to be (re)declared in that scope.
2019-11-26T15:14:05Z jcowan: If you are going to mutate it or initialize it, that's part of the declaration too.
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2019-11-26T15:17:11Z jcowan: Python's "global" declaration is a weakened form of this
2019-11-26T15:18:02Z jcowan: needed because Python doesn't distinguish between mutation and declaration syntactically.
2019-11-26T15:21:45Z zig: "global" _and_ "nonlocal"
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2019-11-26T15:45:51Z jcowan: Yes, that's new.  I'm still enough of a C programmer not to use large embedded functions much: if it takes more than a few lines, I'd rather give it a global name, especially since global names aren't really global in a world of R6/R7RS style modules.
2019-11-26T15:47:24Z jcowan: One exception would be state machines encoded as tail-recursive procedures, which I think is one of the best examples of proper tail calls.
2019-11-26T15:48:35Z mdhughes: PL/I and REXX are like that, too. Which is great for declaring your interface, and sucks if you have a lot of global state, so you end up with one giant global database.
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2019-11-26T15:49:31Z mdhughes: Solution's the same as Scheme, tho. Don't have a bunch of state-modifying stuff, pass context in.
2019-11-26T15:55:06Z jcowan: An interesting feature of Dijkstra's language is that it doesn't have procedures, only nested blocks
2019-11-26T15:56:36Z jcowan: rather like the "simple imperative language" that underlies Reynolds's "Essence of Algol" paper
2019-11-26T15:57:54Z jcowan: I've always thought it would be interesting to write an Algol interpreter that actually follows the model given in the RnRA (n ε {0,1,2})
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2019-11-26T15:59:23Z jcowan: the front-end accepts an Algol program and lazily emits code in the simple imperative language which the back end can consume on demand (because the SIL program is arbitrarily long)
2019-11-26T15:59:37Z jcowan: so that procedure call *really is* just macro substitution
2019-11-26T16:00:55Z jcowan: and the back end is completely unaware of procedures, just as a Lisp compiler proper is completely unaware of macros and a C compiler proper is completely unaware of the C preprocessor
2019-11-26T16:01:23Z jcowan: but those transformations can be done eagerly before the program begins, which is not the case for the SIL interpreter
2019-11-26T16:01:36Z jcowan: (which could of course have a JIT compiler as part of it)
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2019-11-26T16:12:04Z la_zaifir: Very interesting.
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2019-11-26T17:38:25Z mdhughes: Isn't that just a bytecode interpreter with extra steps?
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2019-11-26T17:44:54Z jcowan: mdhughes: The back end is simple, yes.  But the front end has to *dynamically* unroll procedure calls by substituting the procedure code for its call every time a call is made.
2019-11-26T17:45:25Z jcowan: So that rather than being a conventional compiler, it is a kind of hybrid between a compiler and an interpreter.
2019-11-26T17:45:37Z mdhughes: Which is the same as looking up a function and executing its bytecode.
2019-11-26T17:46:23Z jcowan: No, because the meaning of the procedure changes depending on its dynamic context, just as the meaning of a macro changes depending on its static context.
2019-11-26T17:46:25Z mdhughes: Maybe a slight performance win by not having a stack, but you probably spend more on name substitution within the function.
2019-11-26T17:47:04Z jcowan: Of course: it's not meant to be a practical A60 engine, but to illustrate with a practical example how A60 is *different* from the languages that preceded and followed it.
2019-11-26T17:47:42Z jcowan: Call-by-name, the default parameter passing mode, is a direct consequence of the code substitution process defined by RnRA.
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2019-11-26T17:50:30Z jcowan: See sections 4.7.3.2 and 4.7.3.3 of http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.104.1483&rep=rep1&type=pdf
2019-11-26T17:50:34Z jcowan: which is R2RA
2019-11-26T17:50:40Z jcowan: aka "the modified report"
2019-11-26T17:51:38Z jcowan: It explains how procedure calls work (in the model)
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2019-11-26T18:01:29Z jcowan: money sentence: "Finally the procedure body, modified [by alpha conversion and insertion of casts], is inserted in place of the procedure statement and executed."
2019-11-26T18:01:43Z jcowan: not that "alpha conversion" or "casts" had those names yet
2019-11-26T18:04:13Z la_zaifir: So it's sort of a giant macro expander driving a tiny register machine via the SIL?
2019-11-26T18:05:03Z la_zaifir: (Except "expansion time" never ends.)
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2019-11-26T18:35:11Z jcowan: la_zaifir: Exactly
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2019-11-26T19:38:40Z erkin: "Neverending Expansion Time" sounds pretty cool.
2019-11-26T19:43:41Z jcowan chuckles
2019-11-26T19:44:34Z jcowan: In Reynolds's paper, iteration is done in the SIL, but as we Schemers now know, iteration is just tail recursion.
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2019-11-26T20:10:46Z la_zaifir: Language slogan: "Expand your world."
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2019-11-27T19:53:50Z dto: i thought i would share a nice new demo video of SchemeMosaic! although the audio conks out a bit due to the screen recording software, it does successfully demo my S7-Scheme based setup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl-Ccvntxqo
2019-11-27T19:54:04Z dto: let me know if any schemers who are also into electronic music, might want to try it out!
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2019-11-27T22:57:26Z erkin: Hah, Guile is referred to as "a GNU butchering of Scheme" on a SchemeWiki page: http://community.schemewiki.org/?quines
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2019-11-28T04:48:24Z mdhughes: Shortest quine I know is sh: `cat $0`. Or in REXX: http://paste.debian.net/1118339
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2019-11-28T04:56:56Z la_zaifir: What is REXX?
2019-11-28T04:57:25Z la_zaifir remembers that Wikipedia exists.
2019-11-28T04:57:26Z la_zaifir: Ah.
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2019-11-28T05:15:23Z Riastradh: mdhughes: You can do much better with sh: the empty string.
2019-11-28T05:16:09Z Riastradh: $ touch empty
2019-11-28T05:16:10Z Riastradh: $ cat empty
2019-11-28T05:16:10Z Riastradh: $ sh empty
2019-11-28T05:16:10Z Riastradh: $ sh empty | cmp empty -
2019-11-28T05:16:10Z Riastradh: $
2019-11-28T05:17:10Z Riastradh: Using $0 is cheating.  It also doesn't always work!
2019-11-28T05:17:14Z Riastradh: For example, try this:
2019-11-28T05:17:38Z Riastradh: echo 'cat $0' | sh
2019-11-28T05:18:06Z Riastradh: Or, worse,
2019-11-28T05:18:12Z Riastradh: echo 'cat $0' | /bin/sh
2019-11-28T05:19:28Z mdhughes: I don't think it's "cheating", but it's true that it doesn't always work. The REXX version would, regardless of how you input the source to the interpreter.
2019-11-28T05:19:33Z Riastradh: I like ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x))) because it is just a quotation away from the standard self-application of the self-application operator, the U combinator.
2019-11-28T05:21:47Z Riastradh: It's cheating because the `self-application' concept is not expressed in the program -- it is built into the language as a kind of deus ex machina, so the _program_ doesn't really express a quine on its own.
2019-11-28T05:22:33Z Riastradh: Same reason Hofstadter objected to using `This sentence is false.' instead of ` ``Preceded by its quotation yields falsehood'' preceded by its quotation yields falsehood.' to illustrate a paradoxical statement in a logical system.
2019-11-28T05:22:43Z mdhughes: In sh, manipulating files and programs *is* the language. There's often no distinction between internal commands and external programs.
2019-11-28T05:23:27Z mdhughes: Just because most languages have incredibly awful file-handling and no idea of their own source, doesn't make it cheating when one does.
2019-11-28T05:23:30Z Riastradh: There's nothing insightful to `cat $0' except to say that the language has a built-in PRINT-QUINE primitive.
2019-11-28T05:23:44Z Riastradh: (which doesn't always work anyway)
2019-11-28T05:24:09Z mdhughes: But it's not a PRINT-QUINE primitive. It's just cat, which is probably an external program, and $0 tells you the name of the program.
2019-11-28T05:24:40Z Riastradh: Yes, but that's just saying that the language _already implicitly does the self-application_ of a quine (with the indirection of a file).
2019-11-28T05:25:04Z mdhughes: REXX programs often use sourceline to store help text or config data in comments, for instance. It's a practical tool.
2019-11-28T05:25:36Z Riastradh: It's no more insightful to refer to $0 than to take Scheme and add a (current-source-file) primitive and then do (write (call-with-input-file (current-source-file) read)).
2019-11-28T05:26:32Z mdhughes: That is actually an improvement, though. If you can read your own source, you don't have to "fake" a quine by trickery. You open up a bunch of metaprogramming.
2019-11-28T05:26:55Z Riastradh: ...heh.  Great, so you lose the insight _and_ you add a gigantic foot-gun with dubious semantics to the language.
2019-11-28T05:28:15Z mdhughes: You think not having a capability gives you an "insight"?
2019-11-28T05:29:39Z mdhughes: That is literally the opposite. Most languages have no self-reflection ability at all. You can kinda half-ass it in some like Python. Only a few give you direct access to your source.
2019-11-28T05:29:47Z la_zaifir: I suppose it's similar to the point that implementing recursion by writing your interpreter in a recursive language doesn't provide much insight into the topic.
2019-11-28T05:30:12Z Riastradh: The concept of expressing the application of an idea to a quotation of itself is quite insightful, and led to rather revolutionary ideas like Goedel's incompleteness theorem and the halting problem.
2019-11-28T05:30:50Z mdhughes: Sure, you learn something by doing it the hard way. But you spend so much time on the hard way, you don't get to do higher-level tasks.\
2019-11-28T05:31:28Z la_zaifir: If your higher-level task is learning, it works!
2019-11-28T05:31:52Z mdhughes: Quines post-date Gödel by a half-century.
2019-11-28T05:32:34Z Riastradh: Higher-level tasks like obfuscating your code deliberately so whitespace can change its behaviour arbitrarily and nobody can understand it?  You do you, I guess!
2019-11-28T05:33:10Z mdhughes: non-sequitur!
2019-11-28T05:34:51Z mdhughes: Python gives you access to the AST for modules, which you can use to pretty-print not-quite-source, but that has nothing to do with the whitespace in the original source.
2019-11-28T05:35:40Z Riastradh: Quines as computer programs that print their own source code, sure.  But the broader concept of applying a computational or logical thing to (a quotation of) itself goes back much further.
2019-11-28T05:35:46Z mdhughes: And the whole point of indentation-as-block is that semantics == syntax, instead of most other languages where indentation can be a complete lie.
2019-11-28T05:38:01Z mdhughes: Religious dogma aside, the place where real source-level metaprogramming would be useful in Scheme is documentation. I fake it currently with a script that pulls out strings & defines to make an HTML file, but it'd be nice if docs actually existed in the language, as they do in LISP.
2019-11-28T05:41:18Z Riastradh: (I was talking about making a program depend on the text in (current-source-file), not about Python, but anyway, I'm off to bed; enjoy your religious dogmas!)
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2019-11-28T22:16:27Z anlsh: Can anyone help me debug geiser-mode a bit :| None of my evaluation/send to repl functions seem to work
2019-11-28T22:16:54Z anlsh: after running geiser-set-scheme I can run geiser-mode-switch-to-repl from the buffer and one will pop up
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2019-11-28T22:19:47Z anlsh: But if my source file (something.scm) looks something like "(define f 3)" I can run geiser-eval-buffer-and-go and it'll switch me over to the repl, but f will still be unbound
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2019-11-28T23:01:31Z montxero: how does one organise scheme programs
2019-11-28T23:01:41Z erkin: Libraries
2019-11-28T23:01:50Z montxero: lol...
2019-11-28T23:03:17Z montxero: erkin: I am unfamiliar with writing programs in scheme.  Is there a package a la common lisp? are things done in a pythonesq style (modules, packages, e.t.c)?
2019-11-28T23:03:45Z montxero: **package system
2019-11-28T23:04:04Z erkin: There's no standard package system since the ecosystem is deeply fractured.
2019-11-28T23:04:29Z erkin: The closest thing is Akku, a small platform-agnostic package manager for R6RS/R7RS implementations.
2019-11-28T23:04:47Z erkin: https://akkuscm.org/
2019-11-28T23:04:54Z montxero: Ahhh, okay, say I have a couple of source files, How do I make the definitions and symbols in one available to some other one?
2019-11-28T23:05:35Z montxero: erkin: "Akku.scm is a language package manager for Scheme. It grabs hold of code and vigorously shakes it until it behaves properly." I like the sound of it already
2019-11-28T23:05:51Z erkin: haha
2019-11-28T23:06:17Z erkin: I'm afraid that's very implementation dependent.
2019-11-28T23:06:45Z erkin: Although most implementations support either the R6RS (`library') or R7RS (`define-library') syntaxes.
2019-11-28T23:07:26Z erkin: If you're coming from Common Lisp, you might be disappointed with how much the standards *don't* prescribe. ;-P
2019-11-28T23:07:54Z montxero: Hmmm... No worries, I just want to play around with GJS's Adventures in Advanced Symbolic Programming: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6.945/
2019-11-28T23:08:19Z erkin: Ah, they're recommending MIT/GNU Scheme.
2019-11-28T23:09:17Z montxero: yeah.  Perhaps I should RTFM.  But then again, if there is community knowledge to draw on, I might save myself some time
2019-11-28T23:12:31Z erkin: MIT/GNU Scheme is R7RS but I don't know exactly how conformant it is.
2019-11-28T23:12:35Z montxero: Skimming the user manual https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-user.pdf, the only thing that seems appropos is the section on Loading files.
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2019-11-28T23:17:33Z erkin: Hmm lemme see
2019-11-28T23:17:46Z erkin: I'm not really well-versed in MIT/GNU Scheme.
2019-11-28T23:20:11Z montxero: I tried to peruse some of the libraries from the Akku site however, I can't get any it seems the snow-fort.org server is down
2019-11-28T23:21:45Z erkin: It loads fine for me.
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2019-11-28T23:22:58Z montxero: erkin: cool. So I can just have a bunch of .scm files, then load them as needed in other files where I need them?  If so, how do I deal with things such as symbol conflicts?
2019-11-28T23:23:36Z jcowan: MIT Scheme is well-known to be underdocumented.
2019-11-28T23:23:50Z erkin: Ideally, you should be using libraries. They're separate namespaces (modules, if you will) that selectively hide or expose values.
2019-11-28T23:24:15Z montxero: Nice, where can I learn how to make those?
2019-11-28T23:24:27Z jcowan: Sh also has one of the shortest footguns:  "$0 & $0 &".  No matter how powerful, your system will be brought to its knees in seconds.
2019-11-28T23:25:02Z jcowan: montxero: You need to choose your tribe, I mean implementation, before asking such questions.  (Luckily, we don't do tribal wars any more.)
2019-11-28T23:26:17Z jcowan: You should start with https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations including the comments.
2019-11-28T23:26:33Z erkin: Here's the R7RS syntax: (define-library (fruit apple) (import (scheme base)) (export (rename price apple-price)) (define price 10))
2019-11-28T23:26:37Z erkin: Then (import (fruit apple))
2019-11-28T23:26:40Z montxero: jcowan: Gee this soon, I am not ready to get married to any one now, there are a lot of Schemes out there.  What if I come across a better one later?  I can't just call of a marriage :P
2019-11-28T23:26:52Z jcowan: Many of us are polygamous.
2019-11-28T23:26:58Z erkin: I was about to say
2019-11-28T23:27:04Z erkin: I have seven implementation on my desktop.
2019-11-28T23:27:08Z erkin: implementations*
2019-11-28T23:27:17Z jcowan: But you don't want to lose your virginity at a gang-bang, either.  Too confusing.
2019-11-28T23:27:28Z erkin: Although I only use Racket, Chez and Guile these days.
2019-11-28T23:27:48Z jcowan: At one time I had about 40 implementations on my desktop, but now I mostly use Guile, Chicken, Chibi, and Ypsilon
2019-11-28T23:28:05Z montxero: Wow!!!! how come you don't all have scheme aids???!!!!
2019-11-28T23:28:12Z montxero: hahahahahaha
2019-11-28T23:28:28Z montxero: Okay, I am going to jump right into the party
2019-11-28T23:28:43Z erkin: Some say this is a strength somehow but IMO this is the biggest downside of Scheme.
2019-11-28T23:28:59Z erkin: The standards are kept at such a minimum that everyone fills the gaps independently, incompatibly.
2019-11-28T23:29:12Z montxero: jcowan: the page is not available
2019-11-28T23:29:29Z erkin: It also loads for me.
2019-11-28T23:29:49Z montxero: erkin: dammed if you do, dammed if you don't
2019-11-28T23:30:02Z jcowan is working on that problem
2019-11-28T23:30:20Z jcowan: (reducing incompatibility, not montxero's page loading trouble)
2019-11-28T23:30:27Z erkin: I was working on a document that explains strengths and use-cases of different implementations but I had to drop it halfway through to juggle hairy yaks.
2019-11-28T23:30:42Z jcowan would like to see that even incomplete
2019-11-28T23:31:28Z jcowan: slap a great big disclaimer at the top: "Imagine a fearsomely comprehensive disclaimer of author liability. Now fear, comprehensively."
2019-11-28T23:31:39Z jcowan: or just send it to me privately, nom nom nom
2019-11-28T23:31:44Z erkin: haha
2019-11-28T23:31:59Z erkin: Lemme find it
2019-11-28T23:32:46Z montxero: me too... I'd love to see it as well please
2019-11-28T23:32:54Z erkin: https://clbin.com/efZhH
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2019-11-28T23:34:49Z jcowan: Nice!
2019-11-28T23:34:56Z erkin: Thank you!
2019-11-28T23:35:04Z erkin: I'd appreciate feedback of all sorts
2019-11-28T23:35:29Z erkin: I was going to submit this to schemedoc mailing list per zig's request but sorta forgot about it.
2019-11-28T23:35:46Z jcowan: My only two amendments are to point out that all these work on Windows except Gauche, and that "dead" is a bad word to use: "dormant" is more like it.  You never know when someone will fork it or the maintainer will come out with a new major release.
2019-11-28T23:36:02Z erkin: Ah good point
2019-11-28T23:36:41Z erkin: I should probably add a "Platform" bulletpoint.
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2019-11-28T23:40:28Z montxero: Great!
2019-11-28T23:41:37Z montxero: clbin looks amazing
2019-11-28T23:42:00Z erkin: It's a sprunge.us instance. There's also 0x0.st
2019-11-28T23:42:14Z erkin: The latter even has an Emacs library in MELPA.
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2019-11-28T23:44:08Z montxero: erkin: Whaaaaaat, updating my config right now
2019-11-28T23:44:16Z erkin: hehe
2019-11-28T23:49:39Z erkin: Now that I think of it
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2019-11-28T23:49:44Z erkin: jcowan: What do you use Ypsilon for?
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2019-11-29T00:01:39Z jcowan: Vanilla R6RS testing.
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2019-11-29T03:19:14Z montxero: is there a way to get documentation for procedures in scheme?
2019-11-29T03:19:23Z montxero: MIT-Scheme?
2019-11-29T03:19:37Z montxero: On Emacs
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2019-11-29T05:55:20Z erkin: montxero: Yes, Geiser can do xrefs
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2019-11-29T06:17:17Z montxero: This is the silliest question, but please humour me this: how might one construct the list (1 . (2 3))
2019-11-29T06:17:45Z montxero: (cons 1 (cons 2 3)) => (1 2 . 3)
2019-11-29T06:18:10Z la_zaifir: (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '())))
2019-11-29T06:18:12Z montxero: (cons 1 (list 2 3)) => (1 2 3)
2019-11-29T06:18:31Z la_zaifir: (1 2 3) ≡ (1 . (2 3))  It's just different notation.
2019-11-29T06:19:43Z montxero: la_zaifir: huh... so you mean to say it is impossible to create an a-list which has the form (1 . (2 3))? where a list means an honest to goodness dotted list
2019-11-29T06:20:44Z la_zaifir: What an "honest to goodness dotted list"?  (1 2 3) does indeed have the form (1 . (2 3))
2019-11-29T06:20:52Z la_zaifir: s/What/What's/
2019-11-29T06:22:03Z la_zaifir: rudybot: eval (assv 'a '((a 1 2) (b 3 4)))
2019-11-29T06:22:03Z rudybot: la_zaifir: ; Value: '(a 1 2)
2019-11-29T06:23:19Z montxero: la_zaifir: honest to goodness dotted list -> an alist which is not a proper list
2019-11-29T06:23:21Z la_zaifir: So just as with "dotted pairs" (x . y), you can use car and cdr to access the key/value, respectively, of what you get back from assv and friends.
2019-11-29T06:23:43Z la_zaifir: montxero: Why would you want to ensure it's not a proper list?
2019-11-29T06:23:43Z montxero: proper list as defined in the commonlisp hyperspec
2019-11-29T06:25:05Z la_zaifir: In Scheme terms, that would be something of which SRFI 1's `proper-list?' returns #f.
2019-11-29T06:25:47Z la_zaifir: (Although that does mean it could possibly be a circular list.  That would really suck in an alist.)
2019-11-29T06:25:55Z montxero: la_zaifir: mostly because I find that when I want to make sharp distinctions between the two, I conclude that the form (x . y) where x is an atom, must be a proper list if y is a proper list
2019-11-29T06:26:23Z la_zaifir: montxero: Of course.
2019-11-29T06:26:46Z la_zaifir: montxero: But what's the advantage of drawing a sharp distinction?
2019-11-29T06:26:53Z montxero: la_zaifir: thank you. that clears things up
2019-11-29T06:27:19Z montxero: la_zaifir: sharp distinctions keep my mind clear
2019-11-29T06:28:01Z montxero: It helps me make sure I understand the subjects in question especially if there are nuances that may become important later
2019-11-29T06:28:38Z la_zaifir: montxero: If you really need a sharp distinction, you could define a record type to hold your key/value lists.  That way you'd have an idiot-proof type predicate.
2019-11-29T06:28:59Z montxero: When I started to learn C, I wrote a factorial function and spent the next 2 weeks pulling my hair out because i was getting negative results for arguments greater than 11
2019-11-29T06:29:45Z montxero: la_zaifir: what be this record type ye speak of? how can I get my hands on it
2019-11-29T06:29:48Z la_zaifir: montxero: Here's the thing about improper lists: they're only really useful as syntax, e.g. the (lambda (x . xs) ...) form or for pattern matching.  You can *always* use a proper list or some other structure for data structures.
2019-11-29T06:30:13Z la_zaifir: montxero: R7RS define-record-type
2019-11-29T06:30:30Z montxero: I stumbled across GJS's symbolic computing course and want to try out the assignments
2019-11-29T06:30:46Z pjb: montxero: all the lists, even the proper lists, are dotted!
2019-11-29T06:30:50Z montxero: So I started writing a test framework for it
2019-11-29T06:31:01Z pjb: (list 1 2 3) --> (1 2 3) = (1 . (2 . (3 . ())))
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2019-11-29T06:31:30Z montxero: pjb: I get that, I was specifically refering to improper lists (i.e. non nil terminated)
2019-11-29T06:31:31Z pjb: It's the standard printed representation of proper lists that is not dotted.  But the list itself is only made of conses!
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2019-11-29T06:32:19Z la_zaifir: montxero: I commend your approach.  Improper lists just aren't worth that much time worrying about.
2019-11-29T06:33:58Z pjb: montxero: of course, when you consider lists, it's better to say with proper lists.  But cons cells can be used to build other things than proper lists.  So you can easily get printed representations as dotted-lists, but the actual structure is far from lists, it could be dictionary entries, trees, whatever.
2019-11-29T06:33:58Z pjb:  
2019-11-29T06:34:29Z montxero: Okay, thanks guys
2019-11-29T06:34:44Z pjb: For example, (rational 3 . 2) is not a dotted-list, It's a rational 3/2. It just happens that 3/2 is represented with the cons cells (rational . (3 . 2)) and printed as a dotted-list.
2019-11-29T06:35:10Z pjb: You should implement your own printed for such data, so  (rational 3 . 2) prints as 3/2.
2019-11-29T06:35:11Z montxero: pjb: yeah, I was using it as a dictionary and got a bit miffed at the representation
2019-11-29T06:35:13Z la_zaifir: pjb: In what Scheme does that work?
2019-11-29T06:35:25Z pjb: la_zaifir: none.
2019-11-29T06:35:31Z la_zaifir: pjb: Great, thanks. :-p
2019-11-29T06:35:42Z pjb: la_zaifir: implementing rationnals is a classic exercise in sicp for example.
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2019-11-29T10:02:37Z mdhughes: montxero: The simplest complete case for the Chicken module system is http://paste.debian.net/1118502
2019-11-29T10:07:01Z mdhughes: Just as my example of how completely weird every Scheme is. Gerbil doesn't need any of that, just import. MIT used to only do load? Does it have modules/libraries yet?
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2019-11-29T10:14:34Z mdhughes: That'd be a useful thing, a bare-minimum working example of a program with a library, in every dialect.
2019-11-29T10:14:50Z mdhughes: And build/compile commands.
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2019-11-29T16:05:24Z jcowan: mdhughes: Chicken 5 does not need the cond-expand in your example.
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2019-11-29T16:30:57Z faLUCE: Sorry for the stupid question but:  how I check if number1 is > number2 ?     (if  (?? number1 number2) ....
2019-11-29T16:31:26Z Riastradh: Did you try using `>'?
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2019-11-29T16:31:32Z Riastradh: (if (> number1 number2) ...)
2019-11-29T16:31:41Z faLUCE: thnks
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2019-11-29T16:33:35Z mdhughes: It does need that cond-expand, or there's no worker library visible.
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2019-11-29T16:37:16Z mdhughes: Actually it's worse than that, I didn't test it in a normal compiler setup.
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2019-11-29T16:47:38Z mdhughes: OK, this seems to be the cut-down, bare-minimum, actually builds a binary: http://paste.debian.net/1118538
2019-11-29T16:48:31Z mdhughes: (you can lose the load-relative if you like living with source and binaries and everything else in one giant shitpile directory, but I do not)
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2019-11-29T17:21:49Z kritixilithos: hmm homebrew's mit-scheme is outdated
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2019-11-29T17:43:56Z mdhughes: ;Loading "./main.scm"...
2019-11-29T17:43:57Z mdhughes: ;Ill-formed named constant: #!"/usr/bin/env"
2019-11-29T17:44:18Z mdhughes: Oh, MIT Scheme, never change. I mean, I'd like it to change and be a good application, but it never will.
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2019-11-29T18:03:28Z kritixilithos: is there a reason why strings are not lists of characters?
2019-11-29T18:05:37Z la_zaifir: It's a terrible approach, performance-wise.
2019-11-29T18:05:41Z kritixilithos: today I learnt about `string-map` in mit scheme, and there are other procedures for lists that are "redefined" for strings, why not make strings lists of chars so they can be manipulated the same way?
2019-11-29T18:05:46Z mdhughes: http://paste.debian.net/1118545
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2019-11-29T18:06:31Z la_zaifir: A lot of Haskellers deeply regret the strings-are-lists decision in their language.
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2019-11-29T18:06:36Z kritixilithos: la_zaifir: ah, I see (but haskell does it)
2019-11-29T18:07:06Z mdhughes: lists in Scheme are O(n) to access each element. Strings are similar to but not the same as vectors of chars.
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2019-11-29T18:08:25Z mdhughes: (and depending on the unicode implementation, may be just as slow as a list of chars)
2019-11-29T18:08:40Z kritixilithos: mdhughes: oh right, lists are linkedlinks in lisps
2019-11-29T18:10:48Z la_zaifir: kritixilithos: The empty list is a list, and anything consed onto a list is a list.  No need to worry about the notion of 'link'.
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2019-11-29T18:14:46Z kritixilithos: right, from the programmer point of view
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2019-11-29T18:22:30Z mdhughes: Added two module examples to http://community.schemewiki.org/?category-code
2019-11-29T18:23:10Z mdhughes: I'd put up my Gerbil code, but the compiler's crashing on openssl for me, so until I fix that I can't prove the compile script works.
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2019-11-29T19:50:20Z aeth: Imo strings-as-lists gives you almost all of the disadvantages of C strings (like O(n) to get the length and having to get to the null at the end, or in this case the () at the end) with a lot of additional disadvantages like higher memory usage. The only thing it really gives you over C strings is not being able to buffer overflow. Well, I guess it's also easier to insert characters, if they're not immutable.
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2019-11-29T20:14:04Z la_zaifir: aeth: And if you're crazy/don't worry about the whole Unicode thing.
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2019-11-29T20:31:53Z la_zaifir: Oops, sorry, yes, destructively inserting characters *would* be easier given a list representation, since you could assume each index is a complete character.
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2019-11-29T21:38:03Z faLUCE: hello. How can I check if mystring contains "token" ?
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2019-11-29T21:49:57Z wasamasa: peruse srfi-13
2019-11-29T22:04:42Z Riastradh: I like the Boyer-Moore algorithm.
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2019-11-29T22:06:57Z faLUCE: tnx
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2019-11-29T23:13:10Z ScaredySquirrel: guys where is a syntax checker? I need to see where my braces aren't matching up
2019-11-29T23:13:31Z ScaredySquirrel: oh I mean the parentheses
2019-11-29T23:14:54Z Riastradh: In Emacs, you can use M-x check-parens, or show-paren-mode.
2019-11-29T23:15:25Z Riastradh: C-M-q to reindent a subexpression can help you see where things are nested differently from the way you thought.
2019-11-29T23:16:01Z ScaredySquirrel: lol lol it's useless
2019-11-29T23:16:14Z Riastradh: ?
2019-11-29T23:16:29Z ScaredySquirrel: I tried M-x check-parenes then I scrolled down and I pressed C-M-q and it won't show anything different
2019-11-29T23:16:56Z ScaredySquirrel: I enabled show-paren-mode and it won't tell me anything either
2019-11-29T23:17:01Z Riastradh: Did M-x check-parens complain?
2019-11-29T23:17:26Z Riastradh: If yes, your parentheses are unbalanced -- there are more opening than closing or vice versa.  You'll need to find where to put the missing one.
2019-11-29T23:17:27Z ScaredySquirrel: it said "Unmatched bracket or quote"
2019-11-29T23:17:58Z ScaredySquirrel: lol I found out how to fix it
2019-11-29T23:18:12Z Riastradh: Now, it can't tell where you _meant_ to put one.  You could try putting enough ) at the end, for instance, until check-parens is happy; then use C-M-q to find wrong structure.
2019-11-29T23:18:53Z ScaredySquirrel: crap
2019-11-29T23:19:46Z ScaredySquirrel: ok hmm it says this now: Scan expression ends prematurely
2019-11-29T23:19:58Z Riastradh: Now you have too many ).
2019-11-29T23:21:16Z ScaredySquirrel: wow hmm ok that's fine now how to fix invalid field specifiers?
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2019-11-30T03:52:40Z jcowan: mdhughes:  I see, it's because you're doing static linking
2019-11-30T03:55:54Z jcowan: If you build like this:
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2019-11-30T03:56:00Z jcowan: csc -s -j worker worker.scm  -o worker.so
2019-11-30T03:56:00Z jcowan: csc main.scm -o main
2019-11-30T03:56:21Z jcowan: then you don't want the declare in worker.scm or the cond-expand in main.scm
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2019-11-30T04:04:11Z mdhughes: When I do that, it builds but I get Error: unbound variable: |\xcf\xfa\xed\xfe\x07\x00\x00\x01\x03\x00\x00\x00\x01\x00\x00\x00\x04\x00\x00\x00\xf8\x02\x00\x00\x00|
2019-11-30T04:05:24Z jcowan: looks like the shell is trying to execute main
2019-11-30T04:05:26Z jcowan: as a script
2019-11-30T04:05:37Z jcowan: or no, wait, I've seen that before...
2019-11-30T04:07:04Z mdhughes: % file main  main: Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64
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2019-11-30T04:10:18Z jcowan: perhaps MacOS doesn't like the .so extension?
2019-11-30T04:10:35Z jcowan: try leaving off "-o worker.so"
2019-11-30T04:10:36Z mdhughes: No, .so is fine.
2019-11-30T04:11:21Z mdhughes: It is trying to execute it as a script, somehow. That junk above is the magic number in main
2019-11-30T04:12:38Z mdhughes: Which is super weird since it doesn't when it's a static binary.
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2019-11-30T04:15:17Z mdhughes: Oh, I still had a -c flag which meant it wasn't a complete compile. It works now.
2019-11-30T04:16:27Z mdhughes: I still need the cond-expand to run it as a script, tho.
2019-11-30T04:17:34Z mdhughes: And you have to be in the same directory to run main. % ..  % maintest/main  Error: (require) cannot load extension: worker
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2019-11-30T04:23:45Z mdhughes: Updated with dynamic build notes: http://community.schemewiki.org/?module-example-chicken
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2019-11-30T04:35:21Z jcowan: mdhughes: Yes, you have to put it into the Chicken path.
2019-11-30T04:36:17Z mdhughes: Right, which makes it not super useful for making binaries you might shove in ~/bin or whatever.
2019-11-30T04:36:39Z mdhughes: Fine for a work dir full of projects.
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2019-11-30T05:01:11Z jcowan: Presumably you could put it on one of the standard directories on (DY)LD_LIBRARY_PATH
2019-11-30T05:02:39Z jcowan: That's not much different from what you do in any language where you have a library as well as the main program
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2019-11-30T14:55:39Z Riastradh: Does Chicken have a way to path -R/home/me/lib through to the linker when linking the executable giving the paths the executable will search for libraries, or macOS analogue `-install_name @rpath/lib/foo.dylib' when linking the library giving the path relative to the executable's directory where the library will be found?
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2019-11-30T15:14:46Z jcowan: Riastradh: The csc options -C and -L pass options to the compiler and linker respectively; there are also options -F, -framework, and -rpath
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2019-11-30T17:14:55Z faLUCE: hello:  (if (< counter  2)   --> how can I compare with <=   ?
2019-11-30T17:18:06Z faLUCE: sorry: stupid question
2019-11-30T17:18:15Z faLUCE: (solved)
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