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2019-10-01T03:34:01Z gmaggior: is there a disequality operator in Scheme?  ie. the opposite of (= 5 3)?
2019-10-01T03:56:55Z rk4: you could define one (:
2019-10-01T04:02:50Z gmaggior: thx
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2019-10-01T04:16:40Z jcowan: The reason there isn't is that it doesn't extend well to multiple arguments.  Does it mean "not all equal" or "all different"?  In CL it's the latter, which means you have to sort the arguments or put them into a hash table, which is nothing like =, <, >, etc.
2019-10-01T04:16:57Z jcowan: rk4, gmaggior: ^^
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2019-10-01T05:36:27Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks for that explanation, I never thought of it that way!
2019-10-01T05:36:47Z ecraven: maybe RnRS should contain a section explaining why certain things are *not* a part of the standard ;)
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2019-10-01T06:24:48Z ecraven: jcowan: regarding asn1, for hash tables, wouldn't the equivalence predicate be relevant?
2019-10-01T06:25:11Z ecraven: a "generic" hash table is a bit of a problem, I often want strings as keys, or even case-insensitive strings
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2019-10-01T06:28:01Z ecraven: also, bignums are missing :-/
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2019-10-01T11:19:03Z jcowan: ecraven: good point about equivalence predicates, but I don't know anything to do about it.
2019-10-01T11:19:49Z jcowan: The fixed integer format can handle bignums as well, they are simply not part of what I am calling the core.
2019-10-01T11:19:58Z jcowan: I may change that.
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2019-10-01T11:58:58Z mdhughes: The dumb trick for equivalence is if the first key is a symbol, it's eq?, otherwise it's eqv?
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2019-10-01T12:41:14Z ecraven: jcowan: personally, I'd strongly advocate for bignums (which are ubiquitous in Lisps?) to be part of this
2019-10-01T12:41:17Z ecraven: jcowan: I don't know enough about ASN.1 to have an opinion on *how* to best encode an equivalence predicate :-/
2019-10-01T12:41:20Z ecraven: jcowan: would you just encode it as a longer-length integer?
2019-10-01T12:41:28Z ecraven: or does ASN.1 say that integers can only be of a certain length
2019-10-01T12:41:29Z jcowan: Yes, you would.
2019-10-01T12:41:50Z jcowan: ASN.1 is very much about not havving fixed maximums for things.
2019-10-01T12:42:10Z ecraven: ok, that's nice, so you could just remove the restriction for integer, and things would work fine
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2019-10-01T13:04:52Z jcowan: I figure that the largest ASN.1 representable integer has 305 decimal digits, almost as big as the largest binary64 float
2019-10-01T13:05:26Z ecraven: length can be 2^63, right? so that many bytes, that's a lot?
2019-10-01T13:06:04Z jcowan: 2^(127*8)-1, because the metalength is limited to 127, so the length of the integer can have up to 127 bytes (two's complement)
2019-10-01T13:06:39Z jcowan: so I guess it's 2^(127*8-1)-1
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2019-10-01T13:12:02Z ecraven: that seems reasonable as an upper limit for bignums for this decade
2019-10-01T13:21:14Z jcowan: Another byte of metametalength would probably fix it for all time, but bytes were $$$$ when the format was designed.
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2019-10-01T13:46:54Z ecraven: well, that is one large bignum, even for a few years to come...
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2019-10-01T17:10:07Z ecraven: jcowan: do I understand correctly that both core and asn.1 are supposed to serialise the same kind of data, just one in binary and one in text form?
2019-10-01T17:10:19Z jcowan: Just so.  Both are extensible.
2019-10-01T17:10:23Z ecraven: so I could use core form as http payloads, for example
2019-10-01T17:10:31Z jcowan: Absolutely
2019-10-01T17:10:49Z jcowan: One is "text core" and the other is "binary core".  Real names are yet to be worked out.
2019-10-01T17:12:38Z ecraven: very nice
2019-10-01T17:12:51Z ecraven: (though I still wish there were a way to specify what sort of hash table it is.. but then, json doesn't have that either)
2019-10-01T17:15:48Z ecraven: jcowan: why is a mapping serialised to #date{...}
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2019-10-01T17:24:36Z Riastradh: jcowan: 305 decimal digits isn't a lot.  That's around the typical size of a _factor_ of an RSA modulus; a typical RSA modulus has at least 600 digits.
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2019-10-01T17:58:28Z jcowan: Hmm, I think I screwed up the math
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2019-10-01T18:20:03Z jcowan: Yes.  That 10^305 is the maximum length of an integer in bytes.  So the maximum *value* is 2^(10^305)
2019-10-01T18:20:12Z jcowan: No worries about exceeding that.
2019-10-01T18:27:26Z jcowan: ecraven: typo, fixed
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2019-10-01T18:37:00Z jcowan: ecraven: Also documented the new UUID (hex digits in brackets) syntax for bytevectors, which can be prefixed by a tag for things like bitvectors and unknown-content types
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2019-10-02T11:57:13Z h3x__: is this the right place to get help with learning scheme?
2019-10-02T12:07:14Z pjb: yes
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2019-10-02T14:42:17Z ecraven: weinholt: congratulations on loko!
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2019-10-02T14:46:47Z gwatt: what is loko?
2019-10-02T14:48:03Z ecraven: https://weinholt.se/articles/new-r6rs-compiler/
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2019-10-02T14:55:57Z gwatt: nifty!
2019-10-02T14:56:07Z ecraven: looks very interesting!
2019-10-02T14:56:25Z ecraven: I love creating static executables, makes deployment a breeze :P
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2019-10-02T15:28:17Z weinholt: ecraven, thanks :)
2019-10-02T15:37:40Z Riastradh: weinholt: An easy and widely used strategy for mitigating hash-flooding is to pick a uniform random key for each hash table and use siphash.
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2019-10-02T15:38:23Z Riastradh: Siphash is a pseudorandom function family that is a reasonably high-value target for cryptographic scrutiny, and nobody has found any issues with it in the near-decade it's been around.
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2019-10-02T15:41:31Z weinholt: didn't know that. duly noted, thanks
2019-10-02T15:43:10Z Riastradh: It's not going to be faster than (say) FNV-1, but -- assuming it is implemented without timing side channels of its own -- it will prevent anyone from guessing the key or predicting collisions.
2019-10-02T15:44:24Z Riastradh: Another approach is to use a universal hash family -- a UHF is much cheaper to compute than a PRF (comparable to FNV-1), and guarantees low collision probability for any pair of inputs under uniform random key,
2019-10-02T15:44:53Z Riastradh: but it doesn't defend against an _adaptive_ adversary who can act on knowledge of collisions between two inputs; it only defends against an adversary who submits all inputs up front before any interaction.
2019-10-02T15:45:17Z weinholt: the hashtables in loko are basically held together with old moldy tape, they need to be fixed up, so this is good input
2019-10-02T15:49:05Z ggole: Another alternative is to use ordered sets as buckets rather than lists. That does involve changing the table interface a bit though, since it requires an ordering on elements.
2019-10-02T15:49:50Z Riastradh: Here's a universal hash family using polynomial evaluation modulo 2^25 - 39, which fits comfortably in 58-bit fixnums: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20190820/uwc.scm  But I recommend siphash for general-purpose hash tables which might see adaptive adversaries.
2019-10-02T15:51:38Z Riastradh: (Specifically: break a message m into 24-bit chunks, and interpret them as the coefficients of a polynomial over Z/(2^25 - 39)Z; the hash of a message is the evaluation of that polynomial at a uniform random point in Z/(2^25 - 39)Z.)
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2019-10-02T18:55:55Z rain2: nice!
2019-10-02T19:09:58Z amz3: very
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2019-10-02T20:33:59Z Riastradh: weinholt: FYI, IEEE 754 min/max returns the non-NaN value if any; you seem to have it return NaN if either one is NaN.
2019-10-02T20:35:59Z jcowan: Both R6RS and R7RS are silent, but R7RS specifically advises following IEEE
2019-10-02T20:39:14Z jcowan: $ chibi-scheme
2019-10-02T20:39:14Z jcowan: > (max +nan.0 32)
2019-10-02T20:39:14Z jcowan: 32.0
2019-10-02T20:39:14Z jcowan: > (min +nan.0 32)
2019-10-02T20:39:14Z jcowan: +nan.0
2019-10-02T20:39:15Z jcowan: > (max 32 +nan.0)
2019-10-02T20:39:15Z jcowan: 32.0
2019-10-02T20:39:16Z jcowan: > (min 32 +nan.0)
2019-10-02T20:39:16Z jcowan: +nan.0
2019-10-02T20:39:16Z Riastradh: (See IEEE 754-2008, Sec. 5.3.1 `General operations', minNum/maxNum/minNumMag/maxNumMag.)
2019-10-02T20:39:17Z jcowan: $ csi -q
2019-10-02T20:39:17Z jcowan: #;1> (max +nan.0 32)
2019-10-02T20:39:18Z jcowan: +nan.0
2019-10-02T20:39:36Z jcowan: In short, don't count on it.
2019-10-02T20:39:48Z Riastradh: Hey foof...
2019-10-02T20:39:54Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme:
2019-10-02T20:40:04Z Riastradh: (min 123.0 +nan.0)
2019-10-02T20:40:04Z Riastradh: ;Value: 123.
2019-10-02T20:40:04Z Riastradh: (max 123.0 +nan.0)
2019-10-02T20:40:04Z Riastradh: ;Value: 123.
2019-10-02T20:40:41Z ecraven: chez also returns +nan.0
2019-10-02T20:40:50Z Riastradh: ALL WRONG except the one I fixed
2019-10-02T20:41:02Z ecraven: so you'd be better served to count on it *not* honouring ieee ;D
2019-10-02T20:41:34Z Riastradh: FEEX EET
2019-10-02T20:41:57Z Riastradh: I will send a copy of IEEE 754-2008 to anyone who runs up against the IEEE paywall too (or you can use sci-hub).
2019-10-02T20:42:41Z aeth: stupid sci-hub, this is engineering, not science
2019-10-02T20:42:54Z Riastradh: I believe jcowan and ecraven were just doing science on Scheme implementations.
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2019-10-02T20:44:04Z jcowan: I've used sci-hub to get humanities papers too
2019-10-02T20:44:12Z jcowan: I am large, I contain multitudes
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2019-10-02T20:50:22Z DKordic thaugt he is an ID10T because he couldn't find the IEEE-754 spec.  
2019-10-02T20:57:14Z la_zaifir: *FEEX IEEET
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2019-10-02T21:20:09Z weinholt: Riastradh, iirc i just based the max/min behavior on the MAXSS instruction, but it's worth having a look at again
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2019-10-02T22:07:51Z Riastradh: MAXSD and MAXSS (why MAXSS and not MAXSD, incidentally?) both have IEEE 754 semantics: if only one operand is NaN return the other one.
2019-10-02T22:08:46Z Riastradh:      ;; Assumes that (sys:flmax a +nan.0) => +nan.0
2019-10-02T22:09:00Z Riastradh: So if sys:flmax does MAXS?, this comment is wrong.
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2019-10-03T06:00:53Z erkin: Has anyone done a rundown of object systems of Scheme implementations?
2019-10-03T06:01:01Z erkin: Like how COOPS and GOOPS compare and such.
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2019-10-03T06:39:43Z weinholt: Riastradh, using unboxed singles seemed easier at the time; according to Intel, MAXSS returns the second operand if only one operand is a NaN; the behavior also matches Chez Scheme, but i'm open to the idea that they are doing it wrong
2019-10-03T06:49:59Z weinholt: i mean the behavior of flmax/flmin in loko matches chez (not MAXSS)
2019-10-03T07:00:40Z ecraven: is there a word that encompases both encoding and decoding?
2019-10-03T07:00:52Z ecraven: encompasses even
2019-10-03T07:01:33Z weinholt: transcoding, perhaps
2019-10-03T07:01:50Z ecraven: that to me implies changing the encoding, not decoding
2019-10-03T07:02:08Z ecraven: (I thought of that too, but don't quite like it)
2019-10-03T07:02:25Z ecraven: hm.. maybe I should just *not* provide a common library for both, but two separate ones..
2019-10-03T07:05:59Z la_zaifir: Well, there's a certain morphological niceness of `coding'.  The common suffix is the common concept!
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2019-10-03T08:07:47Z rain2: hello
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2019-10-03T08:51:09Z amz3: o/
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2019-10-03T08:55:52Z weinholt: hello rain2
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2019-10-03T09:57:36Z amz3: rudybot: what do you think about a zombie blog generator?
2019-10-03T09:57:48Z rudybot: amz3: When I read 'zombie blog generator', I thought of a program to generate hundreds of zero-comment posts from 5 years ago...
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2019-10-03T13:41:50Z gwatt: ecraven: codec
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2019-10-03T14:26:14Z Riastradh: weinholt: Oh, hm, I guess I misread the x86 manual, sorry.
2019-10-03T14:26:31Z Riastradh: weinholt: Either way, it looks like you went out of your way to provide different semantics in the definition of flmin/flmax!
2019-10-03T14:29:44Z amz3: asn1 is in the top 100 in python package index: https://hugovk.github.io/top-pypi-packages/
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2019-10-03T14:43:05Z Riastradh: C fmin/fmax has IEEE 754 semantics.
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2019-10-03T14:57:29Z weinholt: Riastradh, turns out i did this for a simple reason, just following the description of flmax/flmin in r6rs-lib: "These procedures return the maximum or minimum of their arguments. They always return a NaN when one or more of the arguments is a NaN."
2019-10-03T14:57:56Z weinholt: strange that it goes against IEEE 754
2019-10-03T14:58:21Z Riastradh: Yep, that's the opposite of IEEE 754 and C semantics.
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2019-10-03T14:59:16Z Riastradh: Also the x86 instructions has still different semantics, blech.
2019-10-03T15:00:34Z Riastradh: The rationale given in C99 is that min/max treat NaN input as missing data.  This works better than using +inf/-inf for missing data because the same value works for min and for max.
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2019-10-03T16:13:26Z Riastradh: OK, I've fixed MIT Scheme's min/max on _signalling_ NaN now to match IEEE 754 semantics.  (It was previously correct on quiet NaN but I had misread the parts about signalling NaN.)
2019-10-03T16:15:02Z jcowan: NaNs are strange beasts: they can represent "unknown" or "not applicable" by convention, "nothing" as in (flsqrt -2.0), or "anything" as in (/ 0.0 0.0).
2019-10-03T16:15:20Z jcowan: That said, per WP: "For the next revision of the IEEE 754 standard, it is planned to replace these functions [max and min] as they are not associative (when a signaling NaN appears in an operand)."
2019-10-03T16:16:06Z jcowan: it cites a paper, http://754r.ucbtest.org/background/minNum_maxNum_Removal_Demotion_v3.pdf
2019-10-03T16:16:55Z jcowan: and 754 minutes at http://754r.ucbtest.org/minutes/2017-05-19-minutes.txt
2019-10-03T16:17:01Z jcowan: s/754/WG
2019-10-03T16:18:08Z Riastradh: Heh.
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2019-10-03T17:42:42Z rain2: terminals are fucked up
2019-10-03T17:42:48Z rain2: resizing doesn't work
2019-10-03T17:44:43Z la_zaifir: rain2: Which term emulator?
2019-10-03T17:45:19Z rain2: all of them
2019-10-03T17:45:31Z la_zaifir: :(
2019-10-03T17:45:51Z la_zaifir: I suppose it's better than resizing actual terminals, e.g. with a saw.
2019-10-03T17:46:10Z rain2: maybe a saw would work better
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2019-10-03T18:32:55Z DKordic: AFAIK an escape sequence is sent after resizeing.
2019-10-03T18:34:40Z amz3: exactly
2019-10-03T18:38:06Z la_zaifir: There's always the un-beloved, not-entirely-portable SIGWINCH.
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2019-10-03T18:45:25Z wasamasa: there's a terminal emulator claiming to deal with resized content correctly
2019-10-03T18:46:20Z amz3: hyper.sh?
2019-10-03T18:46:26Z amz3: or hyper.io?
2019-10-03T18:46:31Z wasamasa: IIRC some apple thing
2019-10-03T18:46:54Z amz3: oh
2019-10-03T18:47:10Z amz3: because the vterm called hyper-something is not good.
2019-10-03T18:47:39Z amz3: it only looks "cool".
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2019-10-03T18:48:11Z wasamasa: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336238#c11
2019-10-03T18:49:12Z amz3: termbox maintainer would argue that the terminal is long dead.
2019-10-03T18:49:26Z wasamasa: https://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2013/12/09/a-terminal-surprise suggests libvte does it these days
2019-10-03T18:50:04Z wasamasa: and it does indeed for me
2019-10-03T18:50:07Z amz3: seems like it
2019-10-03T18:50:12Z amz3: at least in weechat
2019-10-03T18:50:12Z wasamasa: at least for simple stuff like the output of `ls` :D
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2019-10-03T18:50:19Z rain2: you can't fix resizing buy writing code that runs inside a terminal
2019-10-03T18:50:30Z amz3: no it doesn't work on my side with `ls`
2019-10-03T18:50:47Z wasamasa: why not?
2019-10-03T18:51:04Z wasamasa: it's a gigantic hack, but let's be honest, I don't see how else you'd make it work for most stuff out there
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2019-10-03T18:51:27Z amz3: there is loko :p
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2019-10-03T18:53:57Z wasamasa: are you suggesting to rewrite everything in scheme?
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2019-10-03T18:56:57Z gwatt: This is finally the year of scheme on linux on the desktop!
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2019-10-03T18:58:03Z amz3: hey!
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2019-10-03T19:11:36Z la_zaifir: It depends on your ls(1).  The command _shouldn't_ care about the terminal, but most current implementations at least query the term dimensions to do tabulation.  And then there's the bonkers GNU color extensions...
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2019-10-03T19:15:15Z ecraven: git bisect is really nice ;)
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2019-10-03T19:23:57Z la_zaifir: If there were only a nice, simple, text-based GUI system with sane dependencies, then we could dump the whole obsolete curses mess and just use the command-line for text I/O.
2019-10-03T19:25:12Z DKordic: Exactly!  What would be a first step?
2019-10-03T19:25:44Z rain2: it would be cool to make that
2019-10-03T19:26:07Z rain2: but someone would implement a version of it that runs inside a terminal and then resizing wouldn't  work
2019-10-03T19:26:19Z la_zaifir: Heh.
2019-10-03T19:26:57Z la_zaifir: It's actually plausible to make a small TUI library with SDL, but I guess many would consider that a heavy dependency.
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2019-10-03T19:28:45Z la_zaifir digs through the sdl2 CHICKEN egg documentation.
2019-10-03T19:30:55Z amz3: termbox anyone?
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2019-10-03T21:19:24Z mdhughes: So, iTerm2 & Terminal are good vt100 citizens (iTerm2 more so), but not everyone generates vt100 codes correctly, so you end up playing with stty at startup and a bunch of other problems. curses is awful.
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2019-10-03T21:20:16Z LeoNerd: curses is awful
2019-10-03T21:20:21Z mdhughes: And yeah, you could use sdl2. Or just jump right to writing a thin layer over native OS X/x11/Win32.
2019-10-03T21:21:12Z mdhughes: My solution for display is sdl2 for everything, but it *sucks* getting it deployed on every platform, you aren't really saving anything over the native wrapper.
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2019-10-03T21:23:48Z mdhughes: And the Chicken SDL2 egg doesn't expose the audio APIs. So I've had to write a C wrapper for that. Fun.
2019-10-03T21:25:14Z mdhughes: You know what was fun and worked? Javascript & HTML in Electron. It's slow, gigantic, but the APIs all exist, work out of the box, are super powerful for writing UI, and are portable with no effort.
2019-10-03T21:29:36Z la_zaifir stares in horror.
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2019-10-03T21:32:38Z la_zaifir: curses is eventually going to die, if only because the number of people who understand the arcana of *nix terminal programming is shrinking.
2019-10-03T21:34:22Z la_zaifir: libtermkey is a decent layer for dealing with the truly terrible ncurses library interface, but it's still a kludge.
2019-10-03T21:35:57Z LeoNerd: libtickit :)
2019-10-03T21:36:03Z LeoNerd <-- author of libtickit and libtermkey
2019-10-03T21:36:23Z erkin: I thought s-lang was a good solution to the curses mess, but realised it's a different mess on its own.
2019-10-03T21:36:43Z la_zaifir: LeoNerd: kudos!
2019-10-03T21:39:01Z la_zaifir: LeoNerd: libtickit looks quite nice.
2019-10-03T21:42:36Z LeoNerd: Mhmm :)
2019-10-03T21:42:43Z LeoNerd: My IRC client I'm using here uses is
2019-10-03T21:42:44Z LeoNerd: *it
2019-10-03T21:43:52Z la_zaifir: LeoNerd: Interesting, which client is that?
2019-10-03T21:44:45Z LeoNerd: Circle
2019-10-03T21:46:08Z la_zaifir: Ah, cool.
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2019-10-03T21:48:06Z amz3: LeoNerd: tx for sharing
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2019-10-03T21:51:13Z amz3: LeoNerd: how do you compare libtickkit vs. termbox?
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2019-10-03T21:52:08Z LeoNerd: Hrm I don't know termbox, let me go look
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2019-10-03T21:53:56Z amz3: LeoNerd: basically, it is a matrix of cells, you can draw(x, y, char, fg, bg), and poll for events
2019-10-03T21:54:19Z LeoNerd: Oh that's pretty tiny
2019-10-03T21:54:32Z LeoNerd: Tickit has a windowing abstraction, for example, so you get multiple overlapping regions
2019-10-03T21:56:44Z amz3: hmm
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2019-10-03T21:56:51Z amz3: it is higher level it seems to me
2019-10-03T21:57:06Z amz3: but also, it seems tickit support wide chars
2019-10-03T21:57:17Z LeoNerd: Oh, definitely. Seems odd not to support that in 2019
2019-10-03T21:57:35Z amz3: yeah, termbox is not really maintained, but the API is very conveniant.
2019-10-03T21:57:42Z mdhughes: Looking at the libtickit demos, it's got a lot of stuff to do. termbox is much more direct. Atari 800-style graphics of just drawing text on screen, read a key.
2019-10-03T21:58:02Z amz3: what is atari 800-style?
2019-10-03T21:58:36Z LeoNerd: mdhughes: all the demos try to show off the full layers and abilities. If you just wanted plain control of the entire term you could just use the TickitTerm instance directly, and ignore the windows and renderbuffers
2019-10-03T21:59:36Z mdhughes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA-euwYrAzw
2019-10-03T22:00:22Z amz3: LeoNerd: ok thanks.
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2019-10-03T22:01:41Z mdhughes: LeoNerd: Might be good to make an example that just does that, does some box-drawing.
2019-10-03T22:09:07Z mdhughes: Another system I very much like is Julia's Plots package. Something like that in every Scheme would be a big usability improvement. https://docs.juliaplots.org/latest/tutorial/#tutorial-1
2019-10-03T22:10:53Z mdhughes: (and hopefully any Scheme wouldn't have the 5-10s startup time of Julia + Plots)
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2019-10-03T22:26:38Z Riastradh: I'm told by sources knowledgeable with the matter that min/max might be fixed properly in IEEE 754-2028.  Derp.
2019-10-03T22:37:47Z Riastradh: (Also I have a very long story in my inbox now.)
2019-10-03T22:43:00Z Riastradh: In IEEE 754-2019 (which I didn't realize was out yet), there are separate
2019-10-03T22:43:07Z Riastradh: min/max and min-number/max-number operations.
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2019-10-03T22:45:29Z Riastradh: min/max always propagates NaN; min-number/max-number work for, e.g., defining clamp(x, a, b) := min(max(a, x), b).
2019-10-03T22:45:53Z Riastradh: MINSD and MAXSD were defined so that compilers can turn the pattern (x < y ? x : y) into them.
2019-10-03T22:51:22Z jcowan: I have a termbox-based proposal at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/TerminalsCowan.md
2019-10-03T22:53:22Z jcowan: What would be a good notation for inexact decimal numbers (that is, floats that are significand*10^exponent rather than 2^exponent?
2019-10-03T22:53:36Z jcowan: We are already using #d to mean base 10 *digits*, but it's kind of useless, as they are the default.
2019-10-03T22:53:41Z jcowan: How bad would it be to repurpose it?
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2019-10-03T22:54:11Z jcowan: (actually, if you set a base in string->nmber then #d can override it)
2019-10-03T22:54:11Z Riastradh: 1.23e10?
2019-10-03T22:54:31Z jcowan: That is generally understood to be a base-2 float
2019-10-03T22:54:38Z jcowan: although RnRS doesn't actually say that.
2019-10-03T22:55:10Z jcowan: so we really need new flags for both cases, as with digit base
2019-10-03T22:56:16Z Riastradh: Well, what about binary32 vs binary64 already?
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2019-10-03T23:42:44Z gwatt: how is 1.0e3 considered base-2?
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2019-10-03T23:53:43Z jcowan: "base" is equivocal here
2019-10-03T23:53:56Z jcowan: it can be the numeral base, as in #xFF vs #d255
2019-10-03T23:54:19Z jcowan: or it can mean the base of a floating-point number expressed as significant * base ^ exponent.
2019-10-03T23:55:04Z jcowan: normally we understand 1.0e3 as having a floating-point base of 2.
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2019-10-03T23:55:26Z jcowan: not because of any standard, but because that's the kind of floats our hardware makes available.
2019-10-03T23:55:31Z jcowan: gwatt ^^
2019-10-04T00:01:51Z erkin: amz3: ping
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2019-10-04T00:19:05Z gwatt: jcowan: I'm not up on my IEEE, but it seems like you're saying 1.0e3 evaluates to 8.0 and not 1000.0, which seems wrong.
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2019-10-04T00:30:43Z jcowan: no, it's 1000 all right, but internally it is  (* 0.9765625d0 (expt 2 10)), where 2 is the base (in this sense)
2019-10-04T00:31:05Z jcowan: scratch "d0", that's CL
2019-10-04T00:32:30Z jcowan: whereas in decimal float it would be (* 1.0 (expt 10 3))
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2019-10-04T00:33:36Z rk4 has now learnt something today^
2019-10-04T00:42:37Z gwatt: jcowan: ah, thanks
2019-10-04T00:43:22Z jcowan: _base_ now joins _persistent_ and _map_ in the list of technical terms with two separate meanings
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2019-10-04T01:41:21Z Riastradh: Apparently min/max is the _only_ substantive normative change in IEEE 754-2019.
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2019-10-04T02:23:52Z Riastradh: jcowan: Are there any Schemes that provide both binary and decimal floating-point numbers?
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2019-10-04T06:09:59Z DKordic: jcowan: Re: Floating-Point Notation.  How about straightforward "(Binary64 S E)" and "(Decimal64 S E)" above all else.  For literals, how about "(= 1024 #1B+10)" and "(= 1000 #1D+3)"?
2019-10-04T06:22:34Z dieggsy: Riastradh: wouldn't that be hardware dependent?
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2019-10-04T06:56:24Z mdhughes: jcowan: +1 on Terminals proposal. I would like to see bright, dim, underline, blink, reverse attributes exposed. Maybe VT100 scroll up/down? It can be done by moving the whole screen, but most terms should have a fast control for it, too.
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2019-10-04T07:24:25Z amz3: erkin: pong, I am GMT+2
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2019-10-04T07:53:04Z erkin: amz3: I'm GMT+3 but with a random sleep cycle. :-P
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2019-10-04T09:18:03Z amz3: erkin: :)
2019-10-04T09:19:30Z amz3: erkin: so the idea of the prototype https://scheme-live.github.io/ff.scm/ is to allow people to choose their favorite Scheme implementation. I stopped working on it mainly because it WAS not working with chrome but now it does, so I am might restart to work on it.
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2019-10-04T09:26:37Z amz3: erkin: Lassi and I made two different metadata list that we wanted to put together regarding scheme implementations. There is https://github.com/schemedoc/implementation-metadata/
2019-10-04T09:26:50Z rain2: I dreamed about implementing sqlite3 in loki
2019-10-04T09:27:23Z amz3: erkin: I am not very happy with about the chosen attribute, because it does not help decide about an implementation (the informations is useful tho!)
2019-10-04T09:27:30Z amz3: rain2: loki or loko?
2019-10-04T09:27:35Z amz3: rain2: hi!
2019-10-04T09:30:24Z amz3: erkin: WDYT?
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2019-10-04T09:33:09Z amz3: erkin: here is a draft of attribute I would like to put inside the comparator: https://srfi-email.schemers.org/schemedoc/cache/11639681/2.txt
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2019-10-04T11:03:50Z erkin: amz3: Yeah, I've seen the wasm demo
2019-10-04T11:05:03Z erkin: I've seen the metadata collection too, but I'm kinda thinking of subjective details. Like which fields I think an implementation particularly shines in, or why someone would pick it for their specific project.
2019-10-04T11:08:23Z erkin: Here's a crude draft of the list I put together yesterday: https://clbin.com/0VLsH
2019-10-04T11:08:45Z erkin: It's WIP and I'm sure there are quite a few mistakes in it.
2019-10-04T11:18:45Z amz3: erkin: thanks for the input. very good. indeed, please send that to schemedoc@srfi.schemers.org please!
2019-10-04T11:19:05Z erkin: Thank you! :-)
2019-10-04T11:22:09Z erkin: I'll work on it a bit and send it for ideas and corrections then.
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2019-10-04T11:36:59Z amz3: https://hyper.dev/blog/state-of-scheme-in-the-browser-in-2019.html
2019-10-04T11:41:07Z amz3: can someone with chrome or chromium on windows can test the following url: https://scheme-live.github.io/ff.scm/
2019-10-04T11:50:17Z amz3: done, it works.
2019-10-04T11:52:40Z dto: hi amz3
2019-10-04T11:52:49Z amz3: o/
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2019-10-04T12:54:49Z Riastradh: dieggsy: Not necessarily, but let's say it did -- what Scheme systems run on hardware with hardware support for decimal floating-point, then?
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2019-10-04T13:41:55Z gwatt: Is the purpose of decimal floating point to ensure exact flonums? e.g., 0.1 + 0.2 - 0.3 == 0.0 ?
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2019-10-04T14:02:34Z Riastradh: gwatt: `exact flonums' is not an accurate representation of what decimal floating-point means.  Rather, the arithmetic more closely matches limited-precision schoolbook arithmetic in decimal as humans tend to be more familiar with -- it still undergoes rounding.
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2019-10-04T14:10:39Z Riastradh: gwatt: For example, in decimal64, you can't represent .33333333333333333 exactly either, let alone 1/3.
2019-10-04T14:10:54Z Riastradh: Both will be rounded to .3333333333333333.
2019-10-04T14:12:05Z Riastradh: In contrast, in binary64, they'll be rounded to .333333333333333314829616256247390992939472198486328125, which is actually closer to the original.
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2019-10-04T14:14:37Z Riastradh: The attraction of getting the more distant answer .3333333333333333 over the closer answer .333333333333333314829616256247390992939472198486328125 is pretty much just that the latter looks scarier and doesn't match what you would get by hand.  So most accounting systems historically store monetary values in decimal, and compatibility with them may be desirable.
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2019-10-04T14:18:49Z ecraven: Riastradh: maybe the actual problem is that r7rs doesn't provide a good way to *display* floating point numbers :D
2019-10-04T14:18:57Z ecraven: (as in, rounded to n places)
2019-10-04T14:19:44Z Riastradh: Does (string->number x b) not do the right thing for base-b floating-point?
2019-10-04T14:20:06Z Riastradh: Or, do you mean fine-grained control over the rounding and exponential notation?
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2019-10-04T14:20:46Z ecraven: well, the two things
2019-10-04T14:20:56Z ecraven: I *often* need is: show leading zeroes up to n places
2019-10-04T14:21:06Z ecraven: and show n digits after the period
2019-10-04T14:21:27Z ecraven: so the latter ;)
2019-10-04T14:41:00Z Riastradh: OK, so you're talking about display, not about internal representation or arithmetic operations.
2019-10-04T14:41:16Z Riastradh: ...also I meant number->string, not string->number, above.
2019-10-04T14:43:23Z jcowan: ecraven: SRFI 159 is your friend:  see https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-159/srfi-159.html#Formatting-Numbers
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2019-10-04T16:03:17Z la_zaifir: There's A SRFI For That™
2019-10-04T16:04:28Z la_zaifir: While some of them are wacky, I've learned to browse the SRFIs whenever there's something I need that seems general enough that it should be a library, somewhere.
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2019-10-04T16:32:39Z jcowan: la_zaifir: Good!
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2019-10-04T16:50:50Z ecraven: jcowan: I'm more used to `format' :-/
2019-10-04T16:51:02Z ecraven: but none of the Schemes I use supports extensive formatting via format :-/
2019-10-04T16:58:57Z jcowan: SRFI 159 has a portable implementation and depends only on SRFIs with portable implementations.
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2019-10-04T17:09:37Z la_zaifir: Cool, 166 seems to provide additional material on writing your own formatters.
2019-10-04T17:10:24Z la_zaifir: (SRFI 159 mentions how easy the system is to extend, but doesn't describe a portable way of doing this, AFAICT.)
2019-10-04T17:14:07Z jcowan: fn is the high-level ways to extend it.  You can use quasiquote to insert a format spec into another format spec.
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2019-10-04T17:16:36Z ecraven: thanks, I'll just read through it (I remember starting, but never used it much), maybe it is a better way to do formatting anyway
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2019-10-05T11:56:13Z amz3: do you know a _pool_ datastructure that allows to count votes in the sense that the interesting output is an integer but a given "key" can only contribute once to it?
2019-10-05T12:01:42Z amz3: it does not matter if the total sum is an approximation.
2019-10-05T12:02:55Z amz3: I was thinking about using an integer backed by a bloom filter. When a key votes, it checks the bloom filter whether that key already contributed to the poll and increment accordingly the counter.
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2019-10-05T12:14:17Z amz3: nevermind. I can store all the keys for a given counter and check that a given key did not already vote before increment operation.
2019-10-05T12:31:27Z rk4: what is a pool datastructure
2019-10-05T12:32:13Z amz3: s/pool/poll/
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2019-10-05T12:33:34Z rk4: and i presume each key can contribute one vote to one of a small number of a data structures?
2019-10-05T12:33:43Z rk4: s/data structures/options/
2019-10-05T12:33:57Z rk4: [sorry, mind got a bit ahead of my typing there.]
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2019-10-05T14:58:02Z amz3: rk4: sorry, I made the thing more complex that it is. In fact, I can just record every key. So the datastructure would be a set of keys that already voted, and the size of the set is the integer I was thinking about. Actually, it is more like a counter than a poll.
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2019-10-05T19:13:00Z malaclyps: should I use (string=? "foo" "foo") or (equal? "foo" "foo") in cases where I'm expecting both arguments to be strings?
2019-10-05T19:13:36Z malaclyps: is there any difference?
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2019-10-05T19:15:57Z amz3: malaclyps: in the case, I am sure about the type I use string=? because it help document he code (it is also prolly faster)
2019-10-05T19:16:52Z amz3: also mind the following:
2019-10-05T19:16:54Z amz3: $ chibi-scheme
2019-10-05T19:16:56Z amz3: > (string=? "abc" 1)
2019-10-05T19:16:58Z amz3: ERROR in "string-cmp": invalid type, expected String: 1
2019-10-05T19:17:12Z amz3: rudybot: how chibi came to be?
2019-10-05T19:17:20Z rudybot: amz3: i'm just trying to learn the macro transformers and googled for example code... was surprised that it came up with that error, and then can't work out why when er-macro-transformer is used everywhere in the chibi libs
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2019-10-05T19:59:39Z gwatt: malaclyps: if you know you're comparing strings and want to error if you compare non-strings, string=? would be better
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2019-10-05T20:07:44Z la_zaifir: Exactly.
2019-10-05T20:10:03Z la_zaifir: Interestingly, the standard doesn't seem to state that strings that are equal in the sense of string=? need also be equal?.  But it would be pretty perverse if they weren't...
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2019-10-05T20:16:45Z gwatt: The standard definitely states equal? needs to return #t if would string=? return #t
2019-10-05T20:17:10Z la_zaifir: Which section?  I can't find it.
2019-10-05T20:19:55Z gwatt: Ah, it states that in r6rs, but in r7rs it just mentions that equal? can be applied to strings
2019-10-05T20:20:56Z la_zaifir: Ah, ok.
2019-10-05T20:23:04Z gwatt: but r7rs does give an example of using it to compare strings
2019-10-05T20:23:57Z la_zaifir: rudybot: Wouldn't it be nice if you had an !r7rs citation command?
2019-10-05T20:24:12Z rudybot: la_zaifir: [citation needed]
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2019-10-06T01:47:32Z rk4: amz3: most sets i've used have O(1) len operations, so the counter might be superfluous too :)
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2019-10-06T03:53:15Z gmaggior: Hi. Why in Scheme was chosen the longer "define" keyword, instead of the leaner "def"?  (I come from a Python background)
2019-10-06T03:55:17Z la_zaifir: Because it's good to be "fine".
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2019-10-06T03:56:42Z gmaggior: :)))  but to be lean as well
2019-10-06T03:57:34Z la_zaifir: Lisp naming style generally doesn't favor super-short over descriptive.  Thus, display, not dsp, integer? not int?, etc.
2019-10-06T03:58:47Z la_zaifir: Of course, you're free to write a macro for `def'.
2019-10-06T04:03:56Z gmaggior: thanks (indeed, I just checked Arc and I don't like the super-short thing. However 'def' is one of the cases where it seems handier to me)
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2019-10-06T04:05:39Z la_zaifir: Hah, yes, Arc takes the short identifier approach.  prn, pr, etc.
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2019-10-06T05:16:17Z [rg]: hello
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2019-10-06T05:17:42Z la_zaifir: [rg]: o/
2019-10-06T05:18:26Z [rg]: remind me what scheme you use? Might just take a dive
2019-10-06T05:18:42Z [rg]: I'm also gonna read some lambda calculus with you guys
2019-10-06T05:19:08Z la_zaifir: I'm mostly a CHICKEN user at the moment.  It's a good Scheme, IMHO.
2019-10-06T05:19:08Z [rg]: just finishing this division proof
2019-10-06T05:20:35Z [rg]: ok
2019-10-06T05:20:52Z [rg]: I am still not sure if I should go for racket or chicken
2019-10-06T05:21:09Z [rg]: racket does have the python apeal
2019-10-06T05:21:41Z la_zaifir: It appeals to pythons?
2019-10-06T05:22:09Z gmaggior: what about Guile?  :)
2019-10-06T05:22:26Z [rg]: python has a lot of builtins /big standard libary
2019-10-06T05:22:41Z [rg]: guile repl doesn't work with arrow keys ...
2019-10-06T05:22:59Z gmaggior: it does... afaik... I find link
2019-10-06T05:23:00Z la_zaifir: You just need readline.
2019-10-06T05:23:11Z [rg]: oh
2019-10-06T05:23:39Z gmaggior: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Loading-Readline-Support.html#Loading-Readline-Support
2019-10-06T05:23:56Z gmaggior: you use a .guile config file to have it enabled by default
2019-10-06T05:24:22Z la_zaifir: By default, it's just stdin, so you get the line editing provided by your kernel--^U, backspace, etc.
2019-10-06T05:24:58Z la_zaifir: Well, for sane values of "your kernel". :)
2019-10-06T05:26:25Z [rg]: ah
2019-10-06T05:26:55Z [rg]: are you guys also familiar with big O analysis?
2019-10-06T05:27:19Z la_zaifir: I think most people here probably are, yes.
2019-10-06T05:27:37Z [rg]: sweet, ok
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2019-10-06T05:31:24Z [rg]: decided on racket since I'm on windows for the time being
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2019-10-06T05:40:26Z [rg]: what is the smallest scheme expression?
2019-10-06T05:41:06Z la_zaifir: 4
2019-10-06T05:41:17Z [rg]: a single letter or digit I assume
2019-10-06T05:41:30Z [rg]: or why 4?
2019-10-06T05:41:47Z la_zaifir: It's the first key I hit.
2019-10-06T05:41:49Z [rg]: also, does this type of lang have a grammar usually?
2019-10-06T05:41:58Z [rg]: or just left to lambda calculus
2019-10-06T05:42:03Z la_zaifir: Yes, see the standard.
2019-10-06T05:42:35Z la_zaifir: https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.1
2019-10-06T05:42:56Z la_zaifir: I don't think the formal syntax has changed much since R5.
2019-10-06T05:44:42Z [rg]: what is atmosphere?
2019-10-06T05:44:51Z [rg]: I know comment or whitespace
2019-10-06T05:45:03Z [rg]: but why was that variable introduced?
2019-10-06T05:45:45Z la_zaifir: Atmosphere?
2019-10-06T05:45:53Z [rg]: hmm, easier representation I guess
2019-10-06T05:45:55Z [rg]: yeah
2019-10-06T05:47:59Z [rg]: oh, what are macros simply? and how does it relate to lamba calculus
2019-10-06T05:48:08Z [rg]: saw it in elisp but never really understood
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2019-10-06T05:50:08Z la_zaifir: Macros are syntactic abstraction--they let you define new syntactic forms.
2019-10-06T05:51:12Z [rg]: ok, so since this language is continuously evaluated there needs to be a way to distinguish macros
2019-10-06T05:51:16Z [rg]: so that pretty much it
2019-10-06T05:51:50Z la_zaifir: For example, `let' is often written as a macro that expands into a lambda application, e.g. (let ((x 2)) (* x x)) turns into ((lambda (x) (* x x)) 2)
2019-10-06T05:52:51Z la_zaifir: Macros are immensely powerful and computationally complete, but it's a double-edged sword.
2019-10-06T05:53:48Z la_zaifir: Scheme macros are hygienic, though, so it's a bit harder to impale yourself or others than in, say, CL.
2019-10-06T05:55:08Z la_zaifir: JRM's syntax-rules primer is an obligatory classic: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf
2019-10-06T05:57:21Z [rg]: ok, gonna put the papers down for now. lets try to create the sieve or eratosthenes
2019-10-06T05:58:26Z [rg]: what paste do you guys prefer anyways
2019-10-06T05:58:42Z rk4: see the topic perhaps
2019-10-06T05:58:45Z la_zaifir: ^^ see topic
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2019-10-06T06:09:27Z [rg]: hmm, how do I generate lists?
2019-10-06T06:10:27Z la_zaifir: How do you mean 'generate'?
2019-10-06T06:10:47Z amz3: rk4: thanks.
2019-10-06T06:11:48Z [rg]: x || x in N would give me (1 2 3 4 ...) can I do that?
2019-10-06T06:12:26Z [rg]: rather x || x in N, x <= n
2019-10-06T06:13:08Z la_zaifir: Maybe, but that's certainly not standard Scheme.
2019-10-06T06:13:53Z la_zaifir: (iota N 1) will do it, using SRFI 1.
2019-10-06T06:14:40Z [rg]: ok, gonna try to find the looping contructs
2019-10-06T06:15:06Z la_zaifir: No standard looping constructs, either :)
2019-10-06T06:15:56Z [rg]: o.O
2019-10-06T06:16:03Z la_zaifir: foof-loop and loopy-loop are popular loop macros provided by several Schemes, though.
2019-10-06T06:16:13Z [rg]: ah ok
2019-10-06T06:16:30Z la_zaifir: But you understand that you don't need loop forms, right?
2019-10-06T06:16:48Z [rg]: all recursive I guess
2019-10-06T06:17:01Z [rg]: maybe? just following the algorithm from wikipedia
2019-10-06T06:19:16Z la_zaifir: 'Named let' is often used as a loop form in Scheme, e.g. (let loop ((acc 1) (n 10)) (if (= n 0) acc (loop (* acc n) (- n 1))))
2019-10-06T06:19:53Z la_zaifir: It's usually sufficient for simple cases.  Nested tail-call loops can get ugly, though.
2019-10-06T06:20:13Z la_zaifir: (And it's standard.)
2019-10-06T06:35:08Z [rg]: I think I went off the deep end here
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2019-10-06T07:21:56Z amz3: I do poll (!) to help me decide what GUI toolkit to use: https://framadate.org/ZSErX5mekw1vpHQi
2019-10-06T07:39:46Z gmaggior: la_zaifir (I'm taking notes of your explanation about Macros and so on, thanks!)
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2019-10-06T07:54:36Z la_zaifir: gmaggior: yw!
2019-10-06T08:00:39Z mdhughes: amz3: No entry for SDL2
2019-10-06T08:09:36Z la_zaifir: amz3: But CLI and static HTML aren't GUIs!
2019-10-06T08:11:59Z mdhughes: That, too. It's just UI.
2019-10-06T08:12:09Z mdhughes: HTML is a GUI, though.
2019-10-06T08:13:50Z la_zaifir: I suppose if you use forms.  I don't want to run awk through HTML, to be sure.
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2019-10-06T08:21:12Z mdhughes: I bet someone's done that, pointless UI where someone exposes every command line option as a button. Best I can find in a second is http://i.stack.imgur.com/45JRL.jpg
2019-10-06T08:22:12Z amz3: CLI is not a _graphical_ UI but it is a UI. Since, you can compose CLI tools with less, vi etc... it can work as somekind of GUI
2019-10-06T08:23:07Z mdhughes: [rg]: the standard Scheme loop other than 'let NAME' is 'do', but very few people like using it raw. Most wrap it in some kind of macro.
2019-10-06T08:23:31Z amz3: mdhughes: yeah, SDL is missing, I added a column with SDL and GLFW https://framadate.org/ZSErX5mekw1vpHQi
2019-10-06T08:24:38Z amz3: so far, the CLI column is winning.
2019-10-06T08:33:27Z mdhughes: [rg]: https://paste.debian.net/1104867
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2019-10-06T08:39:30Z mdhughes: I really do like a nice CLI for just about anything. I can type faster than I can find the mouse, find things to click on, even with a native Mac/iOS GUI, let alone what most programmers do with a GUI toolkit.
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2019-10-06T13:25:32Z jcowan: I think the world needs a GUI for constructing and executing pipelines
2019-10-06T13:26:07Z jcowan: insert boxes, draw lines between them, select properties which become command-line options, etc. etc.
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2019-10-06T13:27:43Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor_Computer_Systems had something like it (I worked with it for a while) but not really enough
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2019-10-06T13:53:56Z jcowan: I'm trying to figure out how editors like vi perform the ':m,n!foo' command to pass lines m through n through foo without deadlocking.
2019-10-06T13:54:05Z jcowan: Anyone have an idea
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2019-10-06T15:52:59Z gwatt: jcowan: why would you expect that to deadlock?
2019-10-06T15:55:14Z jcowan: Pipe buffering.  The caller writes everything to one pipe, but it blocks because the pipe is full.  Meanwhile, the callee is grinding through its input and generating output, but it blocks because the other pipe is full but the caller has not yet tried to read it.
2019-10-06T15:55:35Z jcowan: Select() and friends solve this problem, but such operations precede its existence.
2019-10-06T15:55:49Z jcowan: A tempfile works too, of course.
2019-10-06T15:59:41Z gwatt: nowadays pipes are pretty large. I think linux even has growable pipes.
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2019-10-06T16:38:49Z la_zaifir: jcowan: Yes!  I couldn't figure this out either.  I finally got it to work by grabbing code from sam, which, IIRC, forks both a write process and a read process.  I'll see if I can paste the relevant code.
2019-10-06T16:43:04Z la_zaifir: https://paste.debian.net/1104914/
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2019-10-06T16:44:22Z la_zaifir: ^^ check out the implementation of the | command (in the plan9() function).  It doesn't deadlock, and there's no fiddling with the pipe buffer.
2019-10-06T16:52:09Z la_zaifir: gwatt: It's actually a huge annoyance.  The pipe buffer is very finite, and trying to synchronize reads and writes around it can lead to long and ugly code.  An example of trying to do it this way: vis_pipe() in https://github.com/martanne/vis/blob/master/vis.c  It's very good C, but that function is gross.
2019-10-06T16:55:20Z wasamasa: this reminds me that emacs defaults to subprocess control via pty instead of pipe
2019-10-06T16:55:27Z wasamasa: because fuck you, that's why
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2019-10-06T17:16:34Z jcowan: la_zaifir: Thanks, checking these out.
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2019-10-06T17:38:13Z diemaco: hi
2019-10-06T17:40:04Z la_zaifir: Hey diemaco.
2019-10-06T17:44:01Z diemaco: im doing the little schemer and I dont understand why only the first occurence of either o1 or o2 is substituted here: https://gist.github.com/marcel-hda/50a335d862483ad74a4bdf3deb588346
2019-10-06T17:45:54Z diemaco: basically the program ends after one of the or conditions is met?
2019-10-06T17:46:07Z la_zaifir: diemaco: What's the value of subst2 when (or (eq? o1 (car lat))(eq? o2 (car lat))) is true?
2019-10-06T17:46:28Z la_zaifir: Hmm, missing space on that line.
2019-10-06T17:49:14Z diemaco: the value should be (cons (car lat)) up to that point, then the new value is cons'ed to that, and then the (cdr lat) is cons'ed onto that and it ends?
2019-10-06T17:49:51Z la_zaifir: diemaco: Specifically, you're returning (cons new (cdr lat)).  So there is no further recursion.
2019-10-06T17:49:59Z la_zaifir: diemaco: And so you don't replace any more elements.
2019-10-06T17:50:19Z diemaco: thats an obviously simple explanation LOL
2019-10-06T17:51:15Z la_zaifir: It's a little subtle.  There is not STOP to show you where the computation ends.  You simply return the rest of the list.
2019-10-06T17:51:26Z la_zaifir: s/ not / no /
2019-10-06T17:51:49Z gwatt: la_zaifir: how does the writer process get the data back into the parent?
2019-10-06T17:51:55Z gwatt: erm, the reader I mean
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2019-10-06T17:52:37Z diemaco: yes I understand now i totally forgot it only recurses when it reaches the last else part
2019-10-06T17:52:46Z la_zaifir: gwatt: Through another pipe.
2019-10-06T17:53:07Z diemaco: thanks for the help
2019-10-06T17:54:02Z la_zaifir: diemaco: np, feel free to ask more questions if you have them.
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2019-10-06T18:00:57Z la_zaifir: gwatt: OK, looking at the sam code again, I wasn't quite right.  The main process opens pipe1 and forks, then child1 opens pipe2, forks, then executes the shell command.  child2 writes all the data to pipe2, i.e. to the stdin of the command, and the main process reads the data from pipe1.
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2019-10-06T20:33:16Z jcowan: I realized that for my purposes having the callee write to a file which the caller then reads in is best.
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2019-10-06T21:10:51Z amz3: jcowan: what do you plan to do with bitbucket getting rid of mercurial?
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2019-10-06T21:43:59Z jcowan: amz3: Switch to Git rather than try to find another hg host, even though I prefer hg to git.  Then possibly push it somwhere else, I don't know.
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2019-10-06T21:49:43Z amz3: fwiw https://hg.sr.ht/
2019-10-06T21:51:22Z amz3: I like hg, but bitbucket is a hundred pains regarding javascript et al.
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2019-10-06T23:57:45Z jcowan: I think it's necessary now to provide a public repo as git, because so many people don't know any other VCS.
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2019-10-07T00:11:18Z Riastradh: You could provide a git mirror too.
2019-10-07T00:16:11Z Riastradh: I mean: continue to maintain it in hg (on, e.g., sr.ht), but provide a git mirror for users who know only git and don't want to figure out hg.
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2019-10-07T00:32:59Z rk4: using github with hg works fine enough for my daily work, via hg-git FWIW :)
2019-10-07T00:46:40Z aeth: It's probably better now, but back when there was an actual competition between git and hg before Github was really common (maybe before Github, idk), hg was painfully slow
2019-10-07T00:47:04Z aeth: at least ime
2019-10-07T00:47:55Z la_zaifir: I'm sure the hg devs worked hard to improve performance.  Just in time for it to not matter!
2019-10-07T00:52:55Z la_zaifir: (Haha, only serious.)  "Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road." --Stewart Brand
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2019-10-07T00:54:34Z rk4: can't say i've experienced the painfully slow bit, but there's always been the python interpreter startup time which made things less than instant. if https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/OxidationPlan completes that'll be interesting
2019-10-07T00:55:22Z la_zaifir: hg is quite fast now.  Thanks to being a C/Python cyborg, now, most likely.
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2019-10-07T00:59:46Z rk4: its been a C/Python cyborg for a long time [2005, which is the same year it was released]
2019-10-07T01:03:37Z la_zaifir: OK, I'm not up on the project history.
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2019-10-07T03:31:21Z jcowan doesn't think a few seconds' delay makes any difference at all; hg running time is swamped, e.g., by gcc running time.
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2019-10-07T04:02:29Z [rg]: do other schemes share the sqaure bracket idea?
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2019-10-07T04:11:26Z mdhughes: Which one? Most let you use square brackets as alternate parens. Gerbil uses it for list construction syntax.
2019-10-07T04:11:49Z mdhughes: Spec says [] and {} are undefined.
2019-10-07T04:13:07Z [rg]: racket has [] and () interchangeable
2019-10-07T04:13:30Z [rg]: but the cond syntax seems familar accross other schemes
2019-10-07T04:18:25Z [rg]: difference between let and define? I am not sure what it means by many bindings, it seems define can do the same
2019-10-07T04:24:47Z la_zaifir: [rg]: Square brackets are commonly supported.  They were in R6RS, but are reserved in R7.
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2019-10-07T04:27:17Z la_zaifir: [rg]: define is used to bind names at top-level, but you can also create internal definitions which are indeed similar to let/letrec bindings.
2019-10-07T04:28:19Z [rg]: thanks la_zaifir
2019-10-07T04:28:29Z la_zaifir: [rg]: The scope is different, however.  In (let <bindings> e0 e1 ...), the names bound in bindings are only visible in e0 e1...
2019-10-07T04:29:18Z [rg]: oh ok
2019-10-07T04:29:40Z [rg]: with define the highest level scope is visible to others, thats the difference right?
2019-10-07T04:30:28Z la_zaifir: I'm not sure what you mean by "the highest level scope is visible to others".
2019-10-07T04:31:43Z la_zaifir: It's not a 'global' declaration or something.
2019-10-07T04:31:49Z [rg]: https://paste.debian.net/1104974/
2019-10-07T04:32:00Z [rg]: within the same define
2019-10-07T04:32:49Z la_zaifir: Right, that looks correct.
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2019-10-07T04:32:53Z [rg]: ok
2019-10-07T04:33:45Z [rg]: so with sieve, I need to A generate a list of naturals, and B manipulate that list
2019-10-07T04:34:04Z [rg]: it seems the side effects are not the approach of racket/scheme
2019-10-07T04:34:38Z la_zaifir: Note how (define (starts? s2) ...) doesn't include the cond expression, but is visible in it--this is something that wouldn't work if it were bound with let.
2019-10-07T04:34:49Z [rg]: so I wonder, is it ideal to continuously create new lists or just remove elements from the orignal list
2019-10-07T04:35:33Z la_zaifir: Mutating lists is usually suboptimal.  I'd try a generate/filter approach.
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2019-10-07T04:36:04Z [rg]: hmm
2019-10-07T04:36:44Z la_zaifir: If you need an infinite list, laziness is your friend.
2019-10-07T04:37:40Z [rg]: I'm not worried about that ;)  all to familar from miranda, I'm just not quite sure what steps to take
2019-10-07T04:39:14Z [rg]: seems like I would need to filter all numbers where modulo is not zero, but then there is the iteration part
2019-10-07T04:39:33Z [rg]: how to update the current "head" element
2019-10-07T04:41:00Z la_zaifir: It's a straightforward recursion.
2019-10-07T04:42:41Z [rg]: how do I first get a list with N numbers as well?
2019-10-07T04:43:12Z la_zaifir: iota
2019-10-07T04:45:00Z la_zaifir: (You'll need to import SRFI 1)
2019-10-07T04:45:02Z [rg]: oh right, you did mention that
2019-10-07T04:45:14Z [rg]: does that come from apl? or just math in general
2019-10-07T04:46:55Z la_zaifir: Yeah, I believe it was named after the APL thing.
2019-10-07T04:47:05Z [rg]: ok, thanks man
2019-10-07T04:47:25Z [rg]: I think I'll work it out on paper and report back tomorrow (hopefully)
2019-10-07T04:47:34Z [rg]: good night :)
2019-10-07T04:47:35Z la_zaifir: [rg]: Good luck!
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2019-10-07T04:50:01Z mdhughes: I'd never use define for anything except top-level, it's easier to tell what's happening with a let or let*.
2019-10-07T04:52:07Z la_zaifir: Internal defines can be nice when you don't want to write (letrec ((frobnitz (lambda (n) ...))) ...).  But I try to stick to letrec when possible.
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2019-10-07T08:21:29Z lavaflow: maybe this is a dumb idea, but if I have λ mapped to lambda, what symbol should I use for thunk?
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2019-10-07T12:56:01Z lloda`: I'd just rite (λ () ...) tbh
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2019-10-07T18:01:20Z jcowan thinks the best square brackets are Interlisp's, where ] will terminate any number of )s and vice versa.  So instead of ")))))))..." at the end of a function, you write "]" and have done.
2019-10-07T18:01:28Z jcowan: Eheu fugaces!
2019-10-07T18:02:00Z wasamasa: picolisp stole that feature
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2019-10-07T18:48:27Z jcowan: Hmm.  That makes me want to check out picolisp (for the first time).
2019-10-07T18:49:31Z wasamasa: here's my notes on using it for a non-toy project: http://emacsninja.com/posts/on-minimalism.html
2019-10-07T18:50:52Z wasamasa: overall, lots of interesting design choices and sharp edges, yet a fast and self-contained implementation
2019-10-07T18:51:11Z ecraven: jcowan: I would be a fan of that, if it weren't for nesting in define-library, for example, which makes this rather useless :-/
2019-10-07T18:52:03Z wasamasa: another funny lisp I can recommend checking out is txr, its design goal is short code getting the (text processing) job done
2019-10-07T18:52:05Z la_zaifir: Heh. "The overall picture my friend painted was that of a bizarro world where a crazy German ignored all established rules for a Lisp dialect..."
2019-10-07T18:52:11Z jcowan: True.  I sometimes wish we had gone with a stand-alone "every form after this is part of this library" approach rather than nesting.
2019-10-07T18:52:27Z jcowan is a crazy half-German, I suppose
2019-10-07T18:52:35Z wasamasa: la_zaifir: I later met Alex Burger and found he's a reasonable person with a good level of understanding
2019-10-07T18:53:00Z la_zaifir: Aww, I was hoping he _was_ a crazy German.
2019-10-07T18:53:15Z ecraven: jcowan: well, I guess the right answer is just better tools, that correctly allow me to move around, load and edit things even if *inside* a define-library
2019-10-07T18:53:28Z ecraven: I like the nesting much better from a syntactic standpoint, but existing tools just don't deal well with it
2019-10-07T18:54:11Z jcowan: Although I think the real right answer is to keep all code out of the define-library form and just include it.
2019-10-07T18:54:19Z mdhughes: That is convenient in Gerbil, the module scope is the file. You just list an export form, an import form, and your defines.
2019-10-07T18:54:30Z jcowan nods.
2019-10-07T18:54:38Z ecraven: jcowan: that's what I do now, but then to test it, you still need to copy the imports
2019-10-07T18:54:43Z jcowan: Pythonesque.  Java of course is suspenders-and-belt
2019-10-07T18:54:46Z mdhughes: Very Pythonic, where a module is a file.
2019-10-07T18:54:54Z ecraven: I really think the answer is tooling.. something that properly supports working with this
2019-10-07T18:55:16Z ecraven: we should get that edwin port up and running on some Schemes, then add support for things like that to its Scheme mode
2019-10-07T18:55:21Z jcowan: Apparently Java was designed for a system in which .class objects were stored in a database table
2019-10-07T18:55:46Z mdhughes: Well, it is sort of a bastard Smalltalk by way of Objective-C by way of a TV set-top box.
2019-10-07T18:55:52Z jcowan: Surely it doesn't matter what Scheme edwin is written in, any more than it matters what Lisp emacs is written in, unless you want to extend it.
2019-10-07T18:56:17Z jcowan: People are sometimes surprised in Chibi that you can't type a define-library form at the REPL.
2019-10-07T18:56:18Z ecraven: jcowan: well, it matters if you want to interact with the host Scheme
2019-10-07T18:56:44Z ecraven: like you can in actual Edwin, with MIT/GNU Scheme
2019-10-07T18:56:55Z jcowan: JAIS:  Just Another Inferior [in the Tenex/Emacs sense] Scheme
2019-10-07T18:57:08Z jcowan: In Tenex the shell was the debugger
2019-10-07T18:58:27Z jcowan: If testing the bare code is an issue, put the imports in a file foo.imps and bring it into the library with include-library-declarations, or into a running REPL with load.
2019-10-07T18:59:12Z ecraven: hehe, that would presuppose proper r7rs library support :-/
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2019-10-07T19:46:51Z diemaco: have a look at this implementation of exponentiation, how is it that (pot 10 5) takes such a long time? https://gist.github.com/marcel-hda/6ab4f30c9d52c0e813adce538d84f657
2019-10-07T19:48:41Z wasamasa: it's not tail-recursive :<
2019-10-07T19:49:13Z la_zaifir: It's the little schemer.  They only do vanilla recursion.
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2019-10-07T19:50:10Z la_zaifir: diemaco: It's slow because pot calls o* on each step and o* calls o+ on each step.  Consider how many times you've got to count down to zero to eval (pot 10 5).
2019-10-07T19:51:17Z diemaco: is it the calls taking the time? I can't imagine it being the all the add1 operations themselves
2019-10-07T19:52:09Z la_zaifir: (o+ a b) involves `a' recursive steps.  (o* n m) involves n calls to o+, and (pot b ex) involves ex calls to o*.
2019-10-07T19:52:14Z la_zaifir: In other words, ouch.
2019-10-07T19:55:55Z la_zaifir: There's nothing wrong with it computationally.  It's just a good example of why we don't usually compute with Peano arithmetic.
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2019-10-07T20:01:31Z diemaco: if it all boils down to adding "1" 100000 times how can it take so long :O that's what I can't understand
2019-10-07T20:03:03Z diemaco: oh right I'm couting down to add hmmh
2019-10-07T20:06:19Z la_zaifir: It's not meant to be fast, but to show how you can implement these operations recursively.
2019-10-07T20:06:53Z la_zaifir: Obviously, Scheme `expt' isn't going to have such terrible performance.
2019-10-07T20:07:26Z diemaco: appreciate your helpfulness once again
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2019-10-07T20:08:08Z jcowan: Unless you raise a bignum to a bignum power
2019-10-07T20:08:25Z jcowan: sometimes a well-placed decimal point makes all the difference between "answer today" and "answer next year, maybe"
2019-10-07T20:08:32Z la_zaifir: Hehe.
2019-10-07T20:08:40Z la_zaifir: diemaco: No problem.
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2019-10-08T17:54:23Z zacts: Is tspl4 a reference or is it a tutorial?
2019-10-08T17:55:16Z zacts: let's say I'm coming from Haskell, should I read SICP or should I read tspl4 first?
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2019-10-08T17:56:55Z gwatt: tspl is a reference.
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2019-10-08T18:01:22Z rain2: i recommend SICP
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2019-10-08T18:17:12Z zacts: ok thanks
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2019-10-08T19:41:41Z mdhughes: Well, depends. TSPL is a more direct "let's get programming with Scheme" book. SICP is teaching something more complex. If you just want to program Scheme, TSPL is better. If you want to learn CS with a Scheme-like language, SICP is better.
2019-10-08T19:46:28Z nisstyre: what is the correct pronunciation of SICP?
2019-10-08T19:46:35Z nisstyre: I've heard "sick pee", which seems wrong to me
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2019-10-08T19:47:15Z wasamasa: you and your weird pronunciations
2019-10-08T19:47:27Z wasamasa: can't you just spell out each letter
2019-10-08T19:47:28Z gwatt: nisstyre: That's how I've heard it pronounced. How do you think it should be pronounced?
2019-10-08T19:48:27Z mdhughes: "That anime girl book" https://knowyourmeme.com/forums/meme-research/topics/47038-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs-hugeass-image-dump-for-evidence
2019-10-08T19:48:28Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/iQDBBypoNB
2019-10-08T19:48:40Z nisstyre: gwatt: I don't know
2019-10-08T19:49:47Z nisstyre: [saɪkpi] seems better than [sIkpi]
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2019-10-08T19:50:04Z gwatt does not read IPA
2019-10-08T19:50:10Z nisstyre: but if you're going by the sound the beginning of each word makes
2019-10-08T19:50:17Z nisstyre: then yeah
2019-10-08T19:50:25Z nisstyre: gwatt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English
2019-10-08T19:50:35Z nisstyre: psyche-pee vs sick-pee
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2019-10-08T19:51:46Z la_zaifir: o_O
2019-10-08T19:52:05Z gwatt: when initializing titles articles, conjunctions, and prepositions are commonly left out.
2019-10-08T19:52:44Z gwatt: If we're going to include the `a' for `and' why not `o' for `of'
2019-10-08T19:54:13Z mdhughes: Also, just watch the lectures and see if Abelson says it: https://youtu.be/-J_xL4IGhJA
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2019-10-08T19:56:37Z jcowan: sick-pee here, and never mind the whacked semantics.
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2019-10-08T19:58:31Z la_zaifir: "Psi-Cop"
2019-10-08T19:58:40Z jcowan: "sic" in English is consistently pronounced "sic", not only in the Latin word but in native "sick" compounds and also "sic" (to set a dog on someone)
2019-10-08T19:58:57Z jcowan: Yes, that's spelled CSICOP, which is why they changed the name.
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2019-10-08T20:09:07Z pjb: The teaching of sicp is not more complex, but more fundamental.
2019-10-08T20:16:21Z nisstyre: jcowan: why not "sick-puh"
2019-10-08T20:16:34Z nisstyre: too much effort?
2019-10-08T20:16:54Z nisstyre is having fun
2019-10-08T20:18:53Z jcowan: -p is conventionally pee in Lisp names in dialects that don't use ?.
2019-10-08T20:19:01Z jcowan: Indeed, ? is often pronounced "pee"
2019-10-08T20:19:14Z jcowan: though I just like to speak the word in the second tone instead.
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2019-10-09T10:01:30Z amz3: I think i will settle on sqlite lsm extension instead of wiredtiger (or rocksdb), bonus point: the license is compatible with my current project.
2019-10-09T10:02:03Z amz3: I need to better benchmarks to see how it behaves.
2019-10-09T10:03:11Z amz3: previously, I feed it some /dev/urandom bytes it did not like it.
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2019-10-09T13:14:18Z jcowan: amz3: Hipp says that much of the reason for ditching the SQLite 4 effort was that there wasn't enough of a performance boost from LSM (in insertion-heavy loads) as he had hoped for.  So definitely benchmark it carefully.
2019-10-09T13:16:13Z jcowan: TIL that "SQLite" is meant to suggest a mineral, like fluorite calcite magnetite etc.
2019-10-09T13:22:13Z mdhughes: "I got a rock"
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2019-10-09T15:08:54Z amz3: I was under the impression that sqlite came from 'elite' https://www.etymonline.com/word/elite
2019-10-09T15:10:09Z amz3: I know about the performance concerns regarding sqlite lsm, along one writer, multiple reader "limitation".
2019-10-09T15:21:18Z pjb: sql lite, the little, light sql.
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2019-10-09T15:49:00Z aeth: That would be SQL337 or SQ "leet"
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2019-10-09T17:01:10Z Riastrad1: nisstyre: `sick pea' is how I say it.  Some people say `ess eye see pea' but that's too much of a mouthful.
2019-10-09T17:01:43Z Riastrad1: Hm.  Can't remember offhand how the authors pronounce it.
2019-10-09T17:02:47Z Riastrad1: Fun fact: sqlite4 was also going to switch to decimal floating-point.
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2019-10-09T17:35:52Z lispmacs: Hi, I have a question relating to the Actor model. I had a project wear I wanted to implement something like GnuRadio blocks. My understanding of how their system works is that a functionality block generates output and dumps that to it's own outbuffer buffer. Then other blocks pull data from that buffer for their input. (That is about all I know on that).
2019-10-09T17:36:06Z lispmacs: I'm tryint to understand how that can or cannot fit into the Actor model
2019-10-09T17:36:43Z lispmacs: since (in my understanding) of the A model, the messages have to be distinct and not sharing of memory between the Actors
2019-10-09T17:38:28Z lispmacs: can that still be done with the actor model, or would you need to switch to some system, say, where you move buffers between the actors
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2019-10-09T19:26:03Z jcowan: lispmacs: The actor model is conceptual: it doesn't care if you copy the messages are not.  It only cares that nobody mungs a message except the actor that currently has it.
2019-10-09T19:26:15Z jcowan: s/are not/or not
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2019-10-09T19:56:24Z darth-cheney: Hello all -- what is the function that will print the s-expression representation of a scheme object? Ie how can I write a function that prints its own definition in scheme?
2019-10-09T19:57:26Z jcowan: write does that, but it will not write procedures; there is no standard way to retrieve the source of a procedure, and it may not even exist in the running Scheme any more.
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2019-10-09T20:08:32Z darth-cheney: aha ok
2019-10-09T20:09:17Z darth-cheney: Thanks
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2019-10-09T20:16:19Z lispmacs: jcowan: so, it would I think then be violating the model; since the first block would need to update the output buffer with new data
2019-10-09T20:17:20Z jcowan: yes, you need a new buffer for the sender each time, but you can still pass the buffers by handle, and the receiver can reclaim the buffers eagerly without waiting for GC.
2019-10-09T20:19:07Z jcowan: similar implementations go back to the IBM 360
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2019-10-10T04:14:19Z lockywolf: Would scip benefit from being rewritten in a modern scheme?
2019-10-10T04:14:32Z lockywolf: I mean, code examples, obviously
2019-10-10T04:15:17Z lockywolf: also, what do people around think about records?
2019-10-10T04:15:43Z lockywolf: Records are an r7rs thing, aren't they?
2019-10-10T04:20:31Z pjb: lockywolf: it has been written in CL, in Python, in C++, and other languages. So why not r7rs scheme?
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2019-10-10T04:22:37Z lockywolf: pjb, my question is not "why not?", but rather "is it worth making an updated book?"
2019-10-10T04:23:17Z pjb: No. Just re do all the exercises in r7rs and publish them in a blog or on github.
2019-10-10T04:23:41Z lockywolf: At least so that the code examples would be runnable without having to (define false #f)
2019-10-10T04:24:40Z lockywolf: I know that racket has #lang sicp
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2019-10-10T04:27:51Z lockywolf: Also, records. In chibi, when I write or write/ss them, I am getting "{dict-entry-type #61 1 2}", which is (read)able in the same running chibi session, but is not readable in, say, chicken.
2019-10-10T04:30:08Z lockywolf: and dict-entry-type evaluates to #<type "dict-entry-type">, which is also not (read)able.
2019-10-10T04:30:12Z lockywolf: :(
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2019-10-10T04:38:05Z jcowan: That's a known problem in many Schemes, but I think it has to be fixed from above, by replacing write with a better write.
2019-10-10T04:42:11Z lockywolf: :(
2019-10-10T04:47:48Z lockywolf: what's wrong with (define-record-scheme)?
2019-10-10T04:58:08Z la_zaifir: What's define-record-scheme ?
2019-10-10T05:03:11Z lockywolf: (srfi 57)
2019-10-10T05:04:53Z lockywolf: As far as I understand, they are like templates for records.
2019-10-10T05:05:57Z lockywolf: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-57/srfi-57.html
2019-10-10T05:06:08Z lockywolf: Search for "Record type schemes:"
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2019-10-10T05:10:08Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: Cool stuff.  I don't think I've looked at 57 before.
2019-10-10T05:11:00Z la_zaifir: record-update is something I would kill for from SRFI-9...
2019-10-10T05:17:13Z lockywolf: Well, it's a bit like multiple inheritance.
2019-10-10T05:17:37Z lockywolf: If I am not mistaken. Or maybe like the "interfaces" from Java.
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2019-10-10T05:18:40Z lockywolf: For some reason, many people dislike multiple inheritance. But I never understood why.
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2019-10-10T11:17:07Z jcowan: lockywolf: Single inheritance has one of two strategies for resolving conflicts: subclass wins but can invoke the superclass (the vast majority of all systems), and superclass wins but can invoke the subclass (Beta, and I believe Racket has this as an option someplace).
2019-10-10T11:17:45Z jcowan: In multiple inheritance, there are jillions of strategies, and no clear consensus on the winner (CL-style, Python-style, C++-style, etc. etc.)
2019-10-10T11:18:08Z LeoNerd: They're all terrible ;)
2019-10-10T11:18:24Z jcowan: I like the style in which conflicts are ERRORS, DAMMIT.
2019-10-10T11:18:48Z LeoNerd: Yah; that makes it easy to reason about.. fewer surprises that way
2019-10-10T11:19:07Z jcowan: Then again, I am no great believer in lexical scoping either.  If a variable is free, you shouldn't be able to bind it: make up your own variable.
2019-10-10T11:22:38Z jcowan: Dijkstra wanted to make us declare all our free variables instead of just using them, and I see some merit in that.  Python allows you to read a free variable, but not to assign to it unless you declare it locally.
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2019-10-10T11:25:36Z lockywolf: Hm... I am by no means an expert, but what's wrong with "child wins"?
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2019-10-10T11:26:22Z LeoNerd: In SI it's generally fine.. that's the easy one to reason about
2019-10-10T11:26:44Z lockywolf: SI means "static inheritance"?
2019-10-10T11:26:46Z LeoNerd: single
2019-10-10T11:27:14Z lockywolf: I never had problems with that...
2019-10-10T11:27:18Z LeoNerd: I.e. a class only has atmost one superclass; so there's not much complexity in where else to look for methods
2019-10-10T11:27:33Z jcowan: For one thing, it makes it impossible for superclasses to exert any controll to make sure that subclasses meet their contracts.
2019-10-10T11:27:58Z jcowan: (that's an argument for superclass wins, not for single inheritance per se)
2019-10-10T11:28:04Z lockywolf: That's true.
2019-10-10T11:28:58Z lockywolf: But this way really it only makes sense for inheritance without polymorphism. I.e. extending things, not specializing things.
2019-10-10T11:29:53Z jcowan: In Beta, a superclass method gets control before and after the subclass code runs.  In CL the same effect can be created with before-methods and after-methods, but even there the subclass before-method is run before the superclass before-method (and similarly for after-methods)
2019-10-10T11:30:08Z jcowan nods
2019-10-10T11:30:48Z lockywolf: I think Java has @override, and something like @nooverride.
2019-10-10T11:30:59Z lockywolf: I am not sure they are enforced though.
2019-10-10T11:31:03Z LeoNerd: Oh those are just for code linting and warning generation and so on
2019-10-10T11:31:22Z LeoNerd: Java's overall model is still subclass-first single-inheritence
2019-10-10T11:31:27Z lockywolf: Well, true again, but -werror -pedantic
2019-10-10T11:31:53Z lockywolf: I mean, whatever Java has instead.
2019-10-10T11:31:55Z LeoNerd: Right; they make the difference between a valid and a not-valid program, but they can't alter the meaning between two valid programs
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2019-10-10T11:32:55Z jcowan: In Scala, a subclass method cannot override a superclass method unless the subclass method explicitly says "override".
2019-10-10T11:33:11Z lockywolf: That's probably better.
2019-10-10T11:33:41Z lockywolf: But frankly, I never had any problems similar to these ones.
2019-10-10T11:33:55Z jcowan mutters and tries to dig up the paper that talks about having both Beta-style and Java-style inheritance
2019-10-10T11:34:08Z lockywolf: The only problems I ever had with multiple inheritance were due to the wrong order of constructors/destructors.
2019-10-10T11:34:19Z lockywolf: Those are really easy to mess up with.
2019-10-10T11:34:39Z LeoNerd: I tend to find that practically, almost all of the problems I have usually come down to existing code having been written with "fat methods"; code that was too big in one lump to be effectively changed/overridden in subclasses
2019-10-10T11:34:44Z LeoNerd: Methods that do too much in one go
2019-10-10T11:35:00Z LeoNerd: I.e. not a problem that the object system itself could really do anything about
2019-10-10T11:35:48Z lockywolf: What about an srfi enforcing the maximal length of a function definition?
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2019-10-10T11:36:27Z jcowan: In Scheme, the ))))))))))))))))))) at the end tends to be self-enforcing.
2019-10-10T11:37:04Z LeoNerd: Mmmm.. I sometimes wonder if a special parser should be allowed that takes superscript digits on )
2019-10-10T11:37:29Z jcowan chuckles
2019-10-10T11:37:39Z LeoNerd: )ⁱ⁵
2019-10-10T11:37:48Z jcowan: The famous Interlisp ] solved that problem
2019-10-10T11:38:44Z jcowan: Ah, here it is: https://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/oopsla04-gff.pdf
2019-10-10T11:38:52Z LeoNerd: Speaking of Unicode, I want them to allocate a block of 128 left/right pairs of symbols, for people to use as open/close brackets
2019-10-10T11:38:59Z jcowan: "Super and Inner — Together At Last!"
2019-10-10T11:39:13Z LeoNerd: They wouldn't have to draw them all, just suggest that they are handed pairs... so whenever you see a close one you know which it pairs with
2019-10-10T11:40:01Z LeoNerd: There's just not enough in regular ASCII, especially when folks want to use < and > as numerical comparisons and not a handed pair
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2019-10-10T11:49:59Z amz3: I tried to raise awareness regarding typeclass objects and whether one could make them nicer with _single dispatch_
2019-10-10T11:50:11Z amz3: https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-167/msg/12325097/
2019-10-10T12:10:40Z jcowan: LeoNerd: We already have 270+ such pairs in Unicode; I think that ought to be enough for anyone.  See https://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/BidiMirroring.txt
2019-10-10T12:11:09Z jcowan: Of course many of them have mathematical meaning, like "subset of" and "superset of, but disregarding that, they make perfectly fine brackets.
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2019-10-10T14:17:28Z gwatt: jcowan: You don't actually always need the override keyword to override a method. If it's abstract you can omit the keyword.
2019-10-10T14:18:04Z gwatt: Also, in C++ you have to define the parent's method as virtual to allow overriding in the subclass.
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2019-10-10T14:20:03Z gwatt: And even then sometimes you can cast away the vtable telling the runtime which method to invoke if you copy-by-value a child object to a parent type.
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2019-10-10T15:56:30Z zacts: I wonder if I should start with Haskell prior to scheme.
2019-10-10T16:09:54Z jcowan: gwatt: true
2019-10-10T16:09:58Z jcowan: zacts: Ghu, no.
2019-10-10T16:10:41Z jcowan: At least, not unless you have been statically typed, fully statically typed, and nothing but statically typed since the beginning of your career, and if that's true you probably are quite imperative-minded as well.
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2019-10-10T18:01:37Z la_zaifir: Philip Wadler wrote an interesting critique of SICP in which he touts Miranda over Scheme https://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/dat/miranda/wadler87.pdf
2019-10-10T18:02:25Z jcowan: I think you mean Miranda™, as opposed to Miranda, the researcher who is *not* a trademark.
2019-10-10T18:02:28Z la_zaifir: As a learning language, that is.  Good points he makes include the hairiness of `quote' and the infamous if-procedure-vs-if-special-form issue.
2019-10-10T18:02:36Z la_zaifir: Heh, yes, of course.
2019-10-10T18:02:40Z la_zaifir: Oh, zacts left.
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2019-10-10T21:07:03Z jcowan: Eh, when you learn that once, I think you've learned it.  It's a hurdle, but it's not a constant annoyance like, umm, static typing.
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2019-10-11T01:46:45Z codeworm: Hello everyone. I have a question. How long will it take to do basic things in Scheme given that I have good understanding of programming and a bit experience with functional programming?
2019-10-11T01:47:49Z codeworm: I've been reading Lisp for 30 minutes and it looks quite easy.
2019-10-11T01:56:06Z codeworm: ... or is it an illusion ? :p
2019-10-11T01:57:55Z jcowan: codeworm: What do you call "basic things"?  If you want to write a game or an application server, 30 minutes won't cut it.
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2019-10-11T02:27:12Z pjb: codeworm: yes, scheme and lisp in general, makes it easy to implement your ideas in general.  But this doesn't remove the difficulty of analyzing a problem, and designing a solution.  The advantage of scheme, is that you won't lose time thinking about irrelevant details such as memory management or null pointers.
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2019-10-11T04:08:57Z belmarca: codeworm: it both is and isn't an illusion. some languages will allow you do to some things more easily than in say R5RS scheme (a for loop in python for example might "look" more intuitive than a named let) but then building syntactic abstractions in scheme is conceptually and practically much easier.
2019-10-11T04:14:10Z belmarca: personally I couldn't get much work done in pure scheme and everything fell into place when I had access to a standard library. I don't see anything practically speaking that I couldn't do in scheme that would require another language. However what you might find is that you end up having to write more code yourself if X or Y library isn't already
2019-10-11T04:14:10Z belmarca: available. But I found that scheme gives you the tools (or the illusion?) that you can implement most of what you need faster and cleaner than in other languages. I find it enabling, not being a particularly gifted programmer to begin with. The parens are a non-issue used as an excuse not to put in the effort.
2019-10-11T04:17:48Z belmarca: an issue I experienced (and still do) was knowing what I want to accomplish and yet not being able to translate this into proper search queries to find the information. You need to stick around a while to learn the vocabulary and concepts. In particular I had trouble at first with using Google when learning syntax-case. I didn't really know what to
2019-10-11T04:17:48Z belmarca: look for.
2019-10-11T04:17:56Z belmarca: have fun :)
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2019-10-11T04:30:07Z la_zaifir: It was certainly easier to find what
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2019-10-11T04:30:41Z la_zaifir: Oops!  It was certainly easier to find what you were looking for before search engines started dumping most of your keywords.
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2019-10-11T04:48:36Z lockywolf_: codeworm, writing scheme is easy, but the ecosystem is 60% obsolete
2019-10-11T04:50:27Z la_zaifir: codeworm: How so?
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2019-10-11T04:51:29Z la_zaifir: I mean, lockywolf_! How so?
2019-10-11T04:51:44Z lockywolf_: Not a question to me :)
2019-10-11T04:53:12Z lockywolf_: For example, I never managed to make the debugging features of slib work on modern schemes.
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2019-10-11T04:53:56Z lockywolf_: scheme-mode in Emacs is ancient
2019-10-11T04:54:10Z lockywolf_: ob-scheme has some very painful bugs
2019-10-11T04:55:30Z lockywolf_: lots of useful debugging aids you may find only work on one particular implementation of Scheme, with the last version circa 1997
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2019-10-11T04:56:42Z lockywolf_: I believe, with r7rs-large and er-macro-transformer omnipresent, that code can be updated.
2019-10-11T04:57:20Z lockywolf_: That's why I write 60%
2019-10-11T04:58:05Z lockywolf_: I have a list of several libraries I plan on getting my hand to making them work eventually.
2019-10-11T04:58:37Z lockywolf_: Needs time though.
2019-10-11T04:58:49Z lockywolf_: Wanna help?
2019-10-11T05:00:57Z la_zaifir: I'd certainly be interested in seeing the list.
2019-10-11T05:04:54Z lockywolf_: ( slib-debugging-features, slib-psd, EnvDraw, cl-magick->scheme-magick ), from the top of my head.
2019-10-11T05:07:58Z lockywolf_: many srfis' reference implementations can be uploaded to snow-fort almost verbatim
2019-10-11T05:08:38Z lockywolf_: scmutils
2019-10-11T05:08:46Z la_zaifir: The debugging libraries will probably be quite hairy, but maybe doable.
2019-10-11T05:09:03Z lockywolf_: At the moment, scmutils is mit-only, but I don't see why it should be.
2019-10-11T05:09:18Z lockywolf_: Well, edebug in Emacs does an amazing job.
2019-10-11T05:09:52Z lockywolf_: There are also Racket debuggers, but I am not sure if they can be portable.
2019-10-11T05:10:05Z lockywolf_: I mean, DrRacket.
2019-10-11T05:10:50Z lockywolf_: Probably not.
2019-10-11T05:12:01Z la_zaifir: We'd have to snarf it soon before the wacko new syntax gets adopted :)
2019-10-11T05:12:40Z lockywolf_: But edebug works not by referring to interpreter's internal structure, but by instrumenting the code with annotations. I think it should be portable.
2019-10-11T05:13:53Z la_zaifir: That would be awesome.
2019-10-11T05:14:34Z lockywolf_: I managed to solve 34% of SICP with chibi and org-babel. It sort of works, but the amount of time I spend on not solving problems but on debugging petty things is a bit too much I think.
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2019-10-11T05:18:56Z lockywolf_: I think that people underestimate Emacs Lisp. Granted, it used to be a weird communist type of language before. But the recent versions look pretty awesome to me.
2019-10-11T05:20:47Z la_zaifir: Only problem is that it's pointless to talk about portability with Elisp.
2019-10-11T05:21:43Z lockywolf_: Well, Emacs Lisp has only one alive interpreter.
2019-10-11T05:21:53Z lockywolf_: So it is effectively 100% portable.
2019-10-11T05:22:05Z lockywolf_: All the code runs on all available interpreters.
2019-10-11T05:22:07Z la_zaifir: Well, yes. :)
2019-10-11T05:22:19Z la_zaifir: You can have the car in any color, so long at it's black.
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2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: ccl-logbot Ekho- crypto bsima1 Mayoi ggole klovett xkapastel lritter mjsir911 evdubs codeworm lockywolf_ khisanth_ sp1ff titanbiscuit sp1ff2 la_zaifir xelxebar DeeEff_ ggoes edgar-rft rotty casaca clog malaclyps tryte manualcrank m1dnight_ lloda niklasl tokik ft nckx lavaflow cortisol stepnem ArneBab rubic88 drot gabot cibs Riastradh rk4_ gnomon wasamasa fiddlerwoaroof_ xi astronavt___ X-Scale keep-learning[m] Seb[m] Ericson2314 rickbutton mbakke
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: willghatch[m] f8l moldybits joast defanor_ dto Zenton spectrumgomas[m] Snn[m] because[m] dieggsy hansbauer[m] sciamano siraben Jackiew2 Gnuxie[m] greaser|q MatrixTravelerb4 amz3 DGASAU yumh sodastab belmarca acarrico ravndal ineiros teardown zmt01 stux16777216Away stux|work iskander cartwright laxask mdhughes tolja sammich emacsomancer pjb Oxyd sethalves cmatei h11 kjak shachaf vyzo ski Guest39455 jackhill webshinra dmiles nevermind copec abbe Kooda
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: str1ngs yosafbridge aeth averell tessier_ rudybot zbrown fadein jxy plathrop DKordic ozzloy mherstin evhan moon_child Guest31068 hugo uso_ friscosam scal_ mrm Urfin_ wigust snits dan64 jcowan ohama eagleflo timwis Ober amoe _apg eMBee rjungemann_ jyc samth cemerick DrDuck physpi gwatt SirDayBat jim profan hive-mind cornett groovy bchar terrorjack__ d_run rann dpk rain2 DerGuteMoritz teej balkamos englishm duncanm cross weinholt gf3_ ecraven emma kwmiebach
2019-10-11T05:58:11Z names: nisstyre `micro neyaoz r1b kbtr uplime r0kc4t dsp fizzie ByronJohnson mario-goulart lpsmith Kryo edw Blkt ELLIOTTCABLE kilimanjaro fowlduck ids1024 LeoNerd mats stephe pflanze Adso_of_Jelq
2019-10-11T05:59:46Z lockywolf_: Don't forget joe, jove, jed and uemacs.
2019-10-11T06:00:31Z lockywolf_: And Edwin.
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2019-10-11T07:45:54Z codeworm: jcowan pjb belmarca lockywolf_: Sorry, I wasn't available (sleep etc)
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2019-10-11T11:33:10Z codeworm: So, as I see it, there are no statements in Scheme, you can go as far as you want (line-wise)
2019-10-11T11:33:29Z amz3: unlike python?
2019-10-11T11:33:46Z codeworm: lol
2019-10-11T11:34:21Z amz3: scheme default syntax is not indentation-based.
2019-10-11T11:35:12Z codeworm: I meant the whole parenthesis concept. You can have multiple lines belonging to a single statement. Right?
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2019-10-11T11:40:34Z amz3: I am not sure what a statement is (i know python (very well) but never grasped the "statement" concept)
2019-10-11T11:41:45Z codeworm: It is where a line of code ends
2019-10-11T11:42:13Z codeworm: In most languages you write code on line per line basis. I think..
2019-10-11T11:42:23Z codeworm: Except constructs, conditionals etc
2019-10-11T11:47:50Z amz3: yes
2019-10-11T11:48:12Z amz3: what you call statement in python would be called expression, I think.
2019-10-11T11:48:41Z codeworm: Oh I see
2019-10-11T11:48:41Z amz3: codeworm: welcome
2019-10-11T11:48:44Z amz3: by the way
2019-10-11T11:48:48Z codeworm: :)
2019-10-11T11:48:52Z codeworm: Thanks
2019-10-11T11:49:44Z amz3: To reply to you original question "How long will it take to do basic things in Scheme given that I have good understanding of programming and a bit experience with functional programming?"
2019-10-11T11:50:06Z amz3: my answer would be: "it is complicated"
2019-10-11T11:51:10Z codeworm: Hmm, I really like functional programming
2019-10-11T11:51:37Z amz3: I have been programming for 15 years and really had success with one project (in PHP3), I have been programming in Scheme for 5 years and I do more and more complex stuff. At the end of day, I think it depends what "basic" means.
2019-10-11T11:52:14Z codeworm: Well, I agree. Depends on what "basic" is. Let's define it.
2019-10-11T11:52:32Z amz3: basic could mean doing foreign function interface thing which can become really advanced if you tape into things like gnome-introspection. a static blog generator can be considered "basic" but if you want you can do it for years...
2019-10-11T11:52:38Z codeworm: Basic means how fast you can get something productive out of Lisp.
2019-10-11T11:52:47Z amz3: define productive.
2019-10-11T11:52:51Z codeworm: For example in text manipulation.
2019-10-11T11:53:04Z amz3: a text editor?
2019-10-11T11:53:04Z codeworm: Probably I'm interested in some metaprogramming as well.
2019-10-11T11:53:16Z codeworm: A text processing tool for example.
2019-10-11T11:53:19Z codeworm: Like sed.
2019-10-11T11:53:39Z codeworm: or something simpler. Doesn't matter.
2019-10-11T11:53:41Z amz3: sed is too broad in scope to be considered "basic"
2019-10-11T11:54:00Z codeworm: Yeah, well. Something simpler.
2019-10-11T11:54:06Z amz3: sorry if I look negative.
2019-10-11T11:54:07Z belmarca: codeworm: it depends! what are you working on?
2019-10-11T11:54:12Z amz3: belmarca: +1
2019-10-11T11:54:34Z codeworm: I don't have something in mind yet. I'm just trying to see what Scheme has to offer.
2019-10-11T11:55:00Z amz3: codeworm: did you choose a scheme implementation?
2019-10-11T11:55:03Z belmarca: I think that's an issue. you need to have something to work on to really learn.
2019-10-11T11:55:10Z amz3: +1
2019-10-11T11:55:16Z codeworm: Yesterday I read this and I quickly got hooked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity
2019-10-11T11:56:06Z codeworm: amz3: I have downloaded chicken interpreter if that answers the question.
2019-10-11T11:56:25Z amz3: codeworm: You could learn macros and other metaprogramming technic but to my mind that is not a good investement, you'd better try to solve a problem you (think you) have and when you feel the need for a metaprogramming thing, learn it at this point.
2019-10-11T11:57:26Z codeworm: Hmm
2019-10-11T11:58:04Z amz3: codeworm: fwiw, I am running a competition (with prizes) where on needs to create a static blog generator.
2019-10-11T11:58:06Z amz3: https://git.sr.ht/~schemers/competition-2019-static-blog-generator
2019-10-11T11:58:37Z codeworm: That is nice :)
2019-10-11T11:58:43Z amz3: in a similar spirit, I am running (https://scheme-lang.com) and I am looking for somekind of feed aggregator.
2019-10-11T11:58:47Z codeworm: I like static blog generators.
2019-10-11T11:59:08Z amz3: codeworm: there is twist.
2019-10-11T11:59:12Z amz3: codeworm: there is +a+ twist.
2019-10-11T11:59:48Z amz3: codeworm: the bonus feature is rely on markov chains. Are you familiar with those? It is a text manipulation algorithm.
2019-10-11T12:00:02Z codeworm: Only heard about it really.
2019-10-11T12:01:37Z amz3: it is an algorithm that given a text, can generate similarly looking texts.
2019-10-11T12:01:55Z amz3: also, one can apply it to scheme expressions.
2019-10-11T12:02:19Z codeworm: Cool
2019-10-11T12:02:55Z codeworm: I'm not really good at math by the way. Just simple algorithm analysis stuff. That's all.
2019-10-11T12:02:56Z amz3: you can also pass the text through link grammar to have grammatically correct sentences.
2019-10-11T12:02:57Z amz3: https://hyperdev.fr/link-grammar-website/
2019-10-11T12:03:14Z amz3: the implementation of markov chains, can be straightforward
2019-10-11T12:03:41Z amz3: see https://github.com/jsvine/markovify
2019-10-11T12:03:57Z amz3: I am not good at math.
2019-10-11T12:04:32Z codeworm: That looks interesting.
2019-10-11T12:05:04Z amz3: codeworm: by the way, chicken is prolly looking for implementations for R7RS libraries, you might ask #chicken for more info on this.
2019-10-11T12:05:34Z codeworm: R7RS? There is an R5RS also, right?
2019-10-11T12:05:42Z codeworm: Or am I wrong?
2019-10-11T12:07:01Z codeworm: Well, I think I will need something simpler to work on at first.
2019-10-11T12:07:30Z codeworm: I'm just starting to get an idea of recursion and functional programming and all this.
2019-10-11T12:07:43Z amz3: R7RS comes with sample implementations. It is far from complex and highly valuable task to the community.
2019-10-11T12:11:05Z codeworm: Just looked at it. Nice.
2019-10-11T12:11:25Z codeworm: This is kind of libraries other people can use in their scheme code, right?
2019-10-11T12:13:03Z amz3: so called, R7RS-large, are libraries that can be used in Scheme implementation. It is somekind of standard library (stdlib)
2019-10-11T12:13:34Z amz3: see http://r7rs.org
2019-10-11T12:17:55Z codeworm: Nice
2019-10-11T12:18:40Z codeworm: Well, I don't think I am at that level of contributing. But I can consider it if I like Scheme and can help here and there. It would be cool.
2019-10-11T12:23:28Z mdhughes_: codeworm: I'd been doing Scheme off and on since the '80s, but didn't really buckle down and start using it for production until last year. Took maybe 3 months to start writing real programs.
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2019-10-11T12:26:31Z mdhughes: Advent of code and Project Euler are good exercises for it. Using Scheme instead of Python or JS as usual forced me to learn all the file & string APIs, better data structure handling, etc.
2019-10-11T12:27:32Z codeworm: That is nice to hear
2019-10-11T12:27:46Z codeworm: Cool. Let's see what will happen. :)
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2019-10-11T12:42:26Z belmarca: codeworm: my experience is similar to mdhughes'.
2019-10-11T12:42:47Z belmarca: I started migrating internal tools to scheme.
2019-10-11T12:44:16Z codeworm: heh
2019-10-11T12:44:37Z codeworm: So it's kind of addicting and fun. That's what I can understand at this point.
2019-10-11T12:45:05Z belmarca: it is very addicting
2019-10-11T12:46:02Z codeworm: I like way too much the Unix philosophy myself.
2019-10-11T12:46:27Z codeworm: And after some Javascript (and functional programming) I think I've seen the light. ;)
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2019-10-11T12:48:53Z codeworm: On Unix I liked sed very much. It's simple design mostly. But it becomes really powerful tool when you start using all it's features.
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2019-10-11T12:49:27Z codeworm: This is where I got started with recursion mostly. I've written a few recursive functions in C before that, but nothing special.
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2019-10-11T13:32:00Z ng0: how does cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra work? I thought bitbucket removed mercurial support? or is this on a future date?
2019-10-11T13:33:02Z jcowan: mid-2020
2019-10-11T13:33:08Z ng0: ah!
2019-10-11T13:33:10Z ng0: thanks
2019-10-11T13:34:23Z jcowan: I have signed up with a service to convert my stuff to github, but I'll leave it there as long as I can to minimize link breakage.  After that I'll probably bite the bullet and start using hg-git.  Or just git, I don't like it but I can use it at the primitive level needed <https://xkcd.com/1597/>
2019-10-11T13:35:43Z ng0: there's this RFC on improving git support in hg, to directly operate on git trees
2019-10-11T13:37:20Z ng0: i hope rust integration in hg doesn't come too soon, or we'll end up moving with netbsd from CVS to hg and then to git shortly afterwards.. at least it looks like it'll be hg at the moment when someone completes the migration
2019-10-11T13:37:49Z jcowan: yes, CVS is neither fish nor fowl
2019-10-11T13:38:13Z jcowan: there are still applications for RCS, amazingly, when you have a lot of files that have little or no interactions
2019-10-11T13:38:27Z jcowan: svn and hg are both good choices there
2019-10-11T13:40:45Z jcowan: svn in particular has a feature I consider brilliant: branches are just a convention.  You branch by copying /trunk to /branches/<branchname>, which is very efficient in svn.
2019-10-11T13:41:06Z jcowan: Then if you want to pull just trunk you can do that, or pull just one branch if you want.
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2019-10-11T13:43:34Z jcowan reminds himself to check out SRFI 57 properly.  You ignore van Tonder at your own risk.
2019-10-11T13:46:07Z jcowan: Okay!  http://github.com/johnwcowan/r7rs-{spec,work} are now populated and will continue to mirror changes I make on the Bitbucket side.
2019-10-11T13:49:08Z jcowan thinks the abbreviation should have been hgial instead of just hg
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2019-10-11T15:53:58Z amz3: the question you have been waiting for: is it ok to do pull-requests against the github repository?
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2019-10-11T16:43:31Z mdhughes: I miss SVN. Everyone checks into a central repo most of the time anyway.
2019-10-11T16:44:11Z mdhughes: I somewhat miss Perforce. Being able to edit your clientspec to get just the parts you care about was wonderful; unlocking every file before using it was good praxis but bad interface.
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2019-10-11T16:51:05Z amz3: TIL praxis: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define+praxis
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2019-10-11T16:58:45Z la_zaifir: Right, re: SVN: If everybody's gone centralized anyway (GitHub), why not go back to centralized VC?
2019-10-11T17:00:15Z la_zaifir: amz3: You mean https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Praxis ?  Critical to Alpha Quadrant history!
2019-10-11T17:01:14Z amz3: :)
2019-10-11T17:06:01Z pjb: la_zaifir: git is not centralized.
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2019-10-11T17:13:00Z mdhughes: Naturally the Klingons, meant to be Soviets and then… sort of Afghanis?… have a broken praxis.
2019-10-11T17:19:34Z la_zaifir: I have to say, looking back on that movie as an adult, it was a bit on-the-nose a few years after Chernobyl
2019-10-11T17:20:15Z la_zaifir: pjb: GitHub, not git!  Not that that distinction means much to many people.
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2019-10-11T17:32:15Z mdhughes: I use gitlab because I'm indie but poor.
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2019-10-11T17:38:54Z ecraven: what do people think of just *not* using keyword arguments, but alists instead? so (http-get "https://schemers.org" `((method . "POST") (cookies . ,my-cookie-jar), ...))?
2019-10-11T17:39:09Z ecraven: apart from efficiency, is anything lost?
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2019-10-11T17:44:42Z la_zaifir: I can't see that you'd lose anything.
2019-10-11T17:45:54Z la_zaifir: The Scheme would probably provide built-in checking for unhandled keyword arguments.  You'd lose that and have to roll your own.
2019-10-11T17:46:27Z la_zaifir: But if restricting the keys mattered enough you could use a record type.
2019-10-11T17:48:22Z amz3: in SRFI 167 and 168, I taken the past to use alist for optional arguments. plist are also popular.
2019-10-11T17:48:31Z amz3: s/past/path/
2019-10-11T17:48:42Z amz3: I need to roll my own validation thing.
2019-10-11T17:48:44Z ecraven: CL also has &allow-other-keys
2019-10-11T17:48:59Z amz3: there is a topic about it on scheme discuss
2019-10-11T17:49:11Z ecraven: what's "scheme discuss"?
2019-10-11T17:50:17Z amz3: srfi discuss: https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-discuss/
2019-10-11T17:50:22Z ecraven: hm.. maybe we should define some sort of (let-keyword alist ((name default-value) ...) body0 body ...) which, just binds name to default-value, unless it is bound to something else in alist
2019-10-11T17:50:26Z ecraven: that sounds very simple
2019-10-11T17:50:55Z ecraven: it could easily raise an error if it found no binding for name in alist
2019-10-11T17:51:41Z amz3: see https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-discuss/threads/2019/07/
2019-10-11T17:51:48Z amz3: topic is: Keyword arguments in procedures specified in SRFIs
2019-10-11T17:52:40Z Riastradh: Everyone should adopt Racket keyword parameter semantics!
2019-10-11T17:52:59Z amz3: I think the discussion end up with the idea of introducing a new scheme object that will can be passed to write and read. The syntax would be #:keyword-stuff
2019-10-11T17:53:20Z amz3: IIRC
2019-10-11T17:53:44Z ecraven: Riastradh: what are its advantages over plain alists with something like that let-keyword?
2019-10-11T17:53:54Z ecraven: just the possibility of proper type checking?
2019-10-11T17:53:56Z la_zaifir: Riastradh: Right! That was the upshot the last time this discussion came up.
2019-10-11T17:54:12Z Riastradh: ecraven: No need for run-time parsing of nested data structures.
2019-10-11T17:54:22Z ecraven: ah, good point, efficiency again ;)
2019-10-11T17:54:41Z amz3: CL (almost turing complete) parameters were also discussed
2019-10-11T17:54:50Z la_zaifir: No, there's more to it than just efficiency.
2019-10-11T17:55:36Z la_zaifir: But I'm forgetting the examples of how runtime parsing breaks down...
2019-10-11T17:56:55Z amz3: keywords can bring a mess to a codebase.
2019-10-11T17:57:13Z ecraven: well, runtime parsing means I can `apply' my keyword function, that doesn't work well with syntax keywords, would it?
2019-10-11T17:57:14Z amz3: they look like boolean parameters to me
2019-10-11T17:57:22Z ecraven: well, for things like http-get, they are useful, imho
2019-10-11T17:57:30Z amz3: s/parameter/argument/
2019-10-11T17:57:34Z ecraven: there's just too many options to that to make it manageable otherwise
2019-10-11T17:57:50Z amz3: in than case, I would rely on a record.
2019-10-11T17:57:58Z amz3: s/than/that/
2019-10-11T17:58:01Z ecraven: amz3: how is that better than an alist?
2019-10-11T17:58:25Z ecraven: apart from needing to either construct and set things, or to just pass in *all* the options via the maker anyway
2019-10-11T17:58:40Z amz3: yeah, a alist would work.
2019-10-11T17:59:19Z amz3: look at chicken, I read it has good http support
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2019-10-11T18:03:41Z wasamasa: it does, though it's far from perfect
2019-10-11T18:03:52Z wasamasa: nothing like automatic ungzipping or easy debugging when things go wrong
2019-10-11T18:05:05Z wasamasa: I'm always reaching for tcpdump for that :D
2019-10-11T18:05:17Z wasamasa: and give up when it's https
2019-10-11T18:05:27Z wasamasa: though it should be possible to debug with mitmproxy or such
2019-10-11T18:06:55Z amz3: part of the motivation for doing p2p is to make the networking story look better, http is a mess.
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2019-10-11T18:08:33Z amz3: I should prolly send an email to schemecomm. I just subscribed to it. I did not see Marc F. email until now.
2019-10-11T18:11:40Z la_zaifir: amz3: Is that another schemers.org ml?
2019-10-11T18:24:11Z amz3: yes
2019-10-11T18:24:27Z amz3: it is dedicated to communication.
2019-10-11T18:24:47Z amz3: mind the fact that there is also a schemeweb ml.
2019-10-11T18:25:17Z la_zaifir: The mls are proliferating.  I should join some of them.
2019-10-11T18:26:32Z amz3: the idea is that we should not discuss pre-srfi in srfi-discuss, so instead Arthur those topical srfi (schemeweb, schemedoc and schemecomm)
2019-10-11T18:26:41Z amz3: +created
2019-10-11T18:26:44Z amz3: :/
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2019-10-11T19:39:23Z jcowan: amz3: Also schemepersist
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2019-10-11T22:21:29Z dto: only the first (leftmost) voice works, but i got my scheme-sequencer thing working at a basic level. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/CBczZKk3/Screenshot%20from%202019-10-11%2018-20-42.png
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2019-10-12T03:00:10Z Riastradh: jcowan: `nevertheless, scheme persisted'
2019-10-12T03:01:23Z jcowan: Indeed.  What is the oldest Scheme of the modern era, this, excluding MIT and other survivors from the Forgotten First Age of Scheme?
2019-10-12T03:01:48Z Riastradh: No idea!
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2019-10-12T03:07:00Z jcowan: I know that Gambit first appeared in 1989, and Chicken isn't that old, because it was bootstrapped from Gambit (and still shares some of its conventions)
2019-10-12T03:07:42Z Riastradh: Chicken is from the early 2000s, I think.
2019-10-12T03:07:58Z Riastradh: Somewhere I might still have the first Chicken t-shirt that was ever printed.
2019-10-12T03:08:06Z Riastradh: (~2004ish, maybe?)
2019-10-12T03:09:49Z jcowan: 2000 per c.l.s
2019-10-12T03:10:12Z jcowan: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.scheme/QOil0WmRtWg/rp_Yb6Et--0J
2019-10-12T03:14:03Z Riastradh: Sounds about right.
2019-10-12T03:14:10Z Riastradh: (By ~2004ish I meant when the t-shirt was printed.)
2019-10-12T03:15:04Z jcowan: Ah
2019-10-12T03:16:06Z jcowan: Apparently there was no real gap; Schemes were appearing all the time.  The oldest I have dates for are Chez (85), MIT (86), Scheme48 (87), SIOD (88)
2019-10-12T03:16:25Z Riastradh: Larceny?
2019-10-12T03:18:39Z jcowan: 1999, a mere 20 years ago
2019-10-12T03:21:58Z jcowan: The "fairly complete list" currently shows 79 implementations, some of which no longer build, or a bit more than 2 per year.
2019-10-12T03:23:18Z daviid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheme_(programming_language)
2019-10-12T03:23:32Z daviid: for info, not sure it is acurate and/or complete
2019-10-12T03:24:11Z daviid: *accurate
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2019-10-12T03:24:50Z daviid: it seems guile was first released in 1993
2019-10-12T03:26:49Z edgar-rft: Guile was dictated to Moses by God.
2019-10-12T03:31:36Z daviid: edgar-rft: did you speak with god, did he/she told you why?
2019-10-12T03:37:02Z lockywolf: What is racket's alternative to (chibi show)?
2019-10-12T03:37:35Z daviid: lockywolf: should ask on #racket
2019-10-12T03:38:10Z lockywolf: srfi 159?
2019-10-12T03:48:32Z jcowan: Yes, I had to look at Scheme impls with WP pages, and often at the history pages on their sites
2019-10-12T03:58:02Z Riastradh: 1999?  Didn't Twobit, at least, predate that by a few years?
2019-10-12T03:58:18Z Riastradh: Guile was a derivative of SCM initially.
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2019-10-12T04:21:49Z daviid: 1993
2019-10-12T04:22:12Z daviid: but they must have been other scheme before i thk ...
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2019-10-12T06:19:31Z mdhughes: PC-Scheme was somewhere in the mid-80s.
2019-10-12T06:20:45Z mdhughes: Ah, open-sourced in '87, no clear statement when it was started commercially. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/scheme-faq/part2/section-1.html
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2019-10-12T13:06:01Z dTal: Just discovered "Jazz Scheme". As an integrated cross-platform Scheme system with an IDE and a bunch of 'blessed' libraries, I'm surprised it's not more talked about. Is there some horrid caveat?
2019-10-12T13:06:46Z dTal: (It's based on Gambit Scheme, which should hardly count against it as gambit is very fast and popular)
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2019-10-12T13:09:02Z jcowan: I think of it as acially a repackaged Gambit, so a Good Thing but from my point of view not a separate implementation.  Unlike, say, Termite, which depends on implementation-specific bits of Gambit but is a distinctly different Scheme.
2019-10-12T13:09:10Z jcowan: s/acially/basically
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2019-10-12T13:12:07Z dTal: Right, not being a seperate implementation is good - better to keep compatibility with the mainstream
2019-10-12T13:13:49Z dTal: but it looks like there's a lot of value-add over Gambit
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2019-10-12T13:15:27Z dTal: Relatedly, has anyone here been productive with lambdanative? (a similar product but for mobile apps)
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2019-10-12T14:24:45Z mdhughes: I looked at lambdanative, seems nice and they've packaged everything… which looks like it'd be very heavy if you're just focused on one task. I would've had to install a ton of stuff to test build, so I haven't yet.
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2019-10-12T14:45:16Z Riastradh: I thought PC Scheme was a derivative of MIT Scheme.
2019-10-12T14:52:19Z mdhughes: Not unless TI invented MIT Scheme…
2019-10-12T14:52:50Z mdhughes: It was very, as the name says, PC-focused, I ran it for graphing on OS/2.
2019-10-12T14:59:58Z mdhughes: https://www.amazon.com/PC-Scheme-Language-Reference-Manual/dp/0262700409?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-osx-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0262700409
2019-10-12T14:59:59Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/wKfPawlCCc
2019-10-12T15:00:25Z mdhughes: "We at Texas Instruments adopted Scheme as a research tool in 1984."
2019-10-12T15:02:36Z mdhughes: Ah, next page credits both MIT Scheme and Indiana University Scheme84.
2019-10-12T15:12:56Z amz3: if you look for a small xml library, check out yxml https://dev.yorhel.nl/yxml/ it is not easy at all if you never did ssax things but afaict it is possible.
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2019-10-12T16:32:59Z amz3: I have been struggling with this xml things for a long time (not because of scheme)
2019-10-12T16:33:05Z amz3: at last I got it.
2019-10-12T16:33:07Z amz3: https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/arew-scheme/tree/7789f95a7a5a16b2314030682668d322c6141c88/src/arew/data/microxml.scm#L30
2019-10-12T16:33:07Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/pyzG7i07dW
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2019-10-12T17:17:20Z mdhughes: Why not just regexp? s/<([\w-]+) ?([^>]*)>/(\1 \2/g  s/</[\w-]+>/)/g  will get you pretty close to sexpr.
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2019-10-12T17:30:58Z wasamasa: I wonder, are there any validating xml parsers written in scheme?
2019-10-12T17:31:13Z wasamasa: I mostly encounter these when working with java and C#
2019-10-12T17:35:34Z wasamasa: ssax seems to just partially support that stuff
2019-10-12T17:36:09Z wasamasa: which is good, it tends to be a security issue
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2019-10-12T18:43:43Z dto: hi wasamasa !
2019-10-12T18:44:18Z dto: wasamasa: a sneak peek at my step sequencer for Scheme FM violin :) https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Z9zmoZDF/Screenshot%20from%202019-10-12%2014-43-20.png
2019-10-12T18:44:42Z dto: baby steps of course, but working
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2019-10-12T18:54:48Z wasamasa: oh dear
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2019-10-12T23:51:46Z [rg]: hello
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2019-10-13T01:38:41Z dto: yay, sound: http://xelf.me/sonata.mp3 http://xelf.me/sonata.png
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2019-10-13T02:01:41Z la_zaifir: dto: Audio synthesis in elisp??
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2019-10-13T04:41:57Z mdhughes: Re https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ProcessesCowan.md
2019-10-13T04:42:05Z mdhughes: http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=5465449174940b8b4a92c9e6f617f8ee57816bbd#a1
2019-10-13T04:42:18Z mdhughes: (we were over in #chicken, makes more sense here)
2019-10-13T04:44:31Z jcowan: Comments and especially reviews very welcome
2019-10-13T04:46:37Z jcowan: It's far from obvious that pipes should be the default.  For one thing, if both the calling program and the called program use stdio buffering, then the pair of processes will deadlock.
2019-10-13T04:49:48Z mdhughes: I don't see why… with `ls` you'd get the process back and loop over its stdout. With `sed` you'd get a process back, write out your text, read in the results.
2019-10-13T04:50:29Z mdhughes: If neither process does anything, sure, it won't go anywhere, but it's not deadlocked, just waiting.
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2019-10-13T04:55:57Z jcowan: gimme a sec, it'll take a few extra marbles to understand this well enough to explain it
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2019-10-13T04:59:13Z jcowan: Okay.  Basically each program winds up trying to read its pipe, but it never gets anything because the output it wants is in the stdio output buffer of the other process.
2019-10-13T04:59:54Z jcowan: Each process has to be sure it flushes every time it writes, which prevents the deadlock.  Unfortunately, most filters don't have an option "use unbuffered output", though cat does.
2019-10-13T05:01:04Z mdhughes: "You're holding it wrong!", as Steve said. Yeah, always flush when you're done writing to a pipe. Put that in big letters in the docs.
2019-10-13T05:02:43Z mdhughes: Happily normal programs flush stdout when the process ends, so even naïve programs will work fine as just input or output; it's only interactive that'll be dangerous.
2019-10-13T05:02:47Z jcowan: As I say, all the existing programs out there do no such thing, because they don't know that they're writing to a pipe.  So this is useful only if you control both prorams.
2019-10-13T05:04:01Z jcowan: Alas, no.  Pipes have a fixed maximum size and can still deadlock if the child outputs more overall than it inputs.
2019-10-13T05:05:14Z jcowan: I stuff everything down my pipe and you read and process it, but eventually you get blocked because I haven't read anything back yet.
2019-10-13T05:05:25Z mdhughes: No, the sender would block at that point, and the receiver would read all its contents. That unblocks it.
2019-10-13T05:05:52Z jcowan: Nof if the return pipe is full too.
2019-10-13T05:06:56Z jcowan: In the end, you either use two threads in the parent, or you have the child output to a file which the parent then reads.  WIth modern large disks, the second strategy is a lot simpler.
2019-10-13T05:07:33Z mdhughes: This really needs an example program, because that wouldn't happen in any program I can think of. Even sed wouldn't block like that.
2019-10-13T05:08:04Z la_zaifir: Isn't this an implementation issue?  What if the spec simply expects the ports returned from `make-pipe' and friends to be `well-behaved'?
2019-10-13T05:08:30Z jcowan: Again, only if you control both ends.  If the child is an ordinary Posix program, you can't depend on any such thing.
2019-10-13T05:09:51Z jcowan: I'm going to send 100 MB to sed first, and then read back everything it's output.  But after sed's stdout pipe fills (which it will eventually) the system is deadlocked, because I'm not gonna read anything until I've written it all.
2019-10-13T05:10:16Z la_zaifir: Exactly.
2019-10-13T05:11:06Z la_zaifir: So either you carefully write only as much as will fit in the pipe buffer, or you take a different tack.
2019-10-13T05:11:23Z jcowan: Again, sed doesn't even know it's writing to a pipe.
2019-10-13T05:11:35Z mdhughes: So don't do that? Write a little, read a little if you expect output.
2019-10-13T05:12:06Z mdhughes: Well, sed does know it's talking to a pipe, because all ports are pipes (in UNIX; they're some other horrible thing in VMS/WNT)
2019-10-13T05:12:06Z jcowan: And then you get blocked because no output is forthcoming at this point (say the sed program ignores the first 1000 lines).
2019-10-13T05:12:18Z jcowan: Huh?
2019-10-13T05:14:34Z jcowan: File ports are certainly not pipes, although the initial implementation of pipes was as a file (with an inode and all) that never grows past a given size and is never written to disk.
2019-10-13T05:18:29Z la_zaifir: mdhughes: Also, stdio is fully buffered on POSIX, unless the output device is a terminal, IIRC.  So this is a general problem.
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2019-10-13T05:22:32Z la_zaifir: (i.e. everything uses stdio with default buffering, no one checks PIPE_BUF and helpfully flushes buffers when it's exceeded, etc.)
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2019-10-13T05:38:17Z gwatt: The situation can't be *that* bad. If it were, pipes in the shell would just not work.
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2019-10-13T05:46:14Z la_zaifir: It's really only a problem in the coroutine scenario, when the same process is trying to use both ends of the pipe.
2019-10-13T05:46:28Z la_zaifir: Err, both pipes.
2019-10-13T05:53:11Z la_zaifir: I'm sure there are other cases in which it's a problem.  But pipes are usually pretty easy to work with.
2019-10-13T05:53:58Z la_zaifir: And reasonably fun, unlike sockets. :-p
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2019-10-13T05:58:54Z jcowan: I don't think there are other bad cases.  Just don't put loops in your pipelines, that's all.  Unfortunately a <fifo1 >fifo2 & b <fifo2 >fifo1 is just such a loop.
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2019-10-13T06:02:48Z jcowan: I'm not sure if the vi :m,n!command uses a tempfile or threads, ut I suspect it's a tempfile.
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2019-10-13T06:06:27Z mdhughes: Was AFK. Here is demo in Python: http://paste.debian.net/1106257
2019-10-13T06:07:14Z mdhughes: (It uses SIGPIPE as an "error", which is not an error but a way to break out of blocking IO; they can be safely ignored)
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2019-10-13T06:09:02Z mdhughes: I would hope to have a nicer API in some places; Python has to be told the encoding to give you strings instead of bytes, the SIGPIPEs are ugly.
2019-10-13T06:09:17Z mdhughes: But I ran a gigabyte text file through it, worked fine.
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2019-10-13T06:17:35Z jcowan: Actually, strace shows that vi uses two tempfiles instead of pipes at all.
2019-10-13T06:17:37Z jcowan: (vim)
2019-10-13T06:19:07Z la_zaifir: Hah, wow.
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2019-10-13T06:22:17Z jcowan: I was looking through strace output for fork() and not finding it and was mightily confused, until I remember than on Linux fork() is a library over clone().
2019-10-13T06:22:30Z jcowan: Hmm.
2019-10-13T06:24:30Z mdhughes: That makes sense for vim, which doesn't need interactive ports usually, and does have to run on low-powered systems.
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2019-10-13T11:36:45Z dto: la_zaifir: only the sequencer is written in English. The audio stuff itself is written in scheme
2019-10-13T11:37:01Z dto: Sorry that should say emacs lisp instead of English
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2019-10-13T11:53:55Z wasamasa: lol
2019-10-13T11:54:02Z wasamasa: elisp is the english of lisps
2019-10-13T11:54:09Z wasamasa: ubiquitious and universally hated
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2019-10-13T12:56:24Z jcowan: mdhughes: it turns out that Python subprocess uses select, which is equivalent to having separate threads, in order to prevent deadlock.  I'm reluctant to require this for subprocesses in R7RS-large.
2019-10-13T12:57:48Z jcowan: btw, I don't have my "all reasonable Schemes" setup any more.  Does anyone know which Schemes, if any, coalesce quotations or strings?  (That is, arrange things so that (self-)quoting values in code are eq? if they are equal?.)
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2019-10-13T13:30:20Z amz3: fwiw, there is docker recipes for various schemes at https://github.com/weinholt/scheme-docker/branches/active
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2019-10-13T14:12:59Z jcowan: Testing compilation was usually beyond my remit: when doing the ImplementationContrasts pages, I almost always worked only at the REPL; I even wrote a REPL for Stalin (in Chicken)
2019-10-13T14:14:13Z jcowan: basically the REPL accepted definitions and saved them in a hashtable until a non-definition was encountered, when all definitions plus the non-definition were written to a file, compiled by Stalin to an executable, and then the executable was run.
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2019-10-13T14:55:00Z mdhughes: Wouldn't every system have select? It may not yet be exposed at the Scheme level, of course, but that's almost the smallest possible FFI.
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2019-10-13T15:20:45Z amz3: I pushed this morning bindings for epoll: https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/arew-scheme/commit/7f542ee567d8a8fc063baa34efbbba611d9c2bbe
2019-10-13T15:22:02Z ecraven: hm.. would it be possible to just standardise keywords (as self-evaluating symbols), without specifying *how* keyword-parameters in functions worked?
2019-10-13T15:22:12Z ecraven: then we'd have at least a consistent *syntax* across Schemes
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2019-10-13T15:47:41Z jcowan: mdhughes: True, I'm just trying to cut back on dependencies.
2019-10-13T15:49:45Z jcowan: ecraven: Absolutely.  Chibi's let-keywords is a syntax-rules macro that takes a rest argument (or any plist) and a body and DTRT; it doesn't have to be integrated into lambda.
2019-10-13T15:50:03Z jcowan: The issues are whether to use :foo, foo:, or #:foo syntax
2019-10-13T15:50:09Z jcowan: s/use/standardize
2019-10-13T15:50:53Z jcowan: See https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/KeywordSyntax.md for details about what existing Schemes do.
2019-10-13T15:51:26Z jcowan: There is also the issue of whether keywords are symbols or not (in most systems they are, in Chicken they're not).
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2019-10-13T15:53:03Z jcowan: It's also conceivable that some people have used foo: or :foo as ordinary bindable identifiers, and even in Common Lisp they can be given function definitions:  (defun :foo (x) (+ 1 x)) works.
2019-10-13T15:54:35Z jcowan: And of course the vast majority of Schemes (though Schemes should be weighed, not just counted) have no keywordses at allses.
2019-10-13T15:56:02Z gwatt: r6rs schemes can fudge keywords with identifier-syntax macros, providing you standardize on foo: or :foo and not #:foo
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2019-10-13T15:56:17Z jcowan: True and good point.
2019-10-13T15:57:09Z jcowan: Though it would have to be done one by one; it could be incorporated into the reader to do them on the fly, but if you are willing to change the reader you might as well require #:foo, which has no backward compat issues.
2019-10-13T15:57:21Z jcowan: Except with Racket.
2019-10-13T15:58:13Z gwatt: Chez actually uses #:foo to write literal gensyms
2019-10-13T16:01:11Z mdhughes: The variations are a little distracting. Gerbil uses (def (foo keyword: (var default)) ... as opposed to Chickeny (define (foo #!keys (var default)) ...
2019-10-13T16:02:28Z mdhughes: You can have a totally different external and internal name, which is sometimes nice but it's very muffinMan: (theMuffinMan 'aMuffinMan)
2019-10-13T16:04:33Z jcowan: Yes, that's part of why we should keep it out of lambda, or even a lambda+kw macro, I think.  A trivial binding just to solve the keyword part of the problem does everything needed, unless you are going to go all Racket (keyword arguments are sorted alphabetically by the compiler).
2019-10-13T16:04:54Z jcowan: (in? :druryLane)
2019-10-13T16:05:34Z jcowan: gwatt: Yes, that's Common Lisp's convention too.  I'll add it to the page.
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2019-10-13T16:06:11Z mdhughes: (assert (in? :druryLane) #t)
2019-10-13T16:10:02Z jcowan: or better yet (assert (in? :muffinMan :druryLane))
2019-10-13T16:10:24Z jcowan: `assert` normally means its argument is #t, and assert-equal or the like is used for other things
2019-10-13T16:11:34Z jcowan: It seems like a messy feature with hard to resolve issues that involves hacking on the reader (often a very complex part of a Lisp) that doesn't really save anything over '.
2019-10-13T16:12:50Z jcowan: For completeness, there is the approach that defines :foo as an ordinary identifier whose value is a record with a string inside, and then defining keyword=? as equal? on the strings.
2019-10-13T16:13:36Z jcowan: That breaks down because such identifiers would have to be explicitly exported from the packages that use them, and then the importing package has to be careful to import just one of each such definition.
2019-10-13T16:15:43Z jcowan: In addition, providing let-optionals and let-keywords separately on top of a rest argument eliminates all hassles about intermixing &key and &optional and &rest in the same lambda, at the expense of some compile-time checking of keyword validity.
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2019-10-13T16:56:45Z ecraven: jcowan: exactly, I'd love to have *any* of these standardised, so that I can at least use them portably in macros :-/
2019-10-13T17:03:06Z jcowan: I think standardizing l-o and l-k will be easy
2019-10-13T17:05:25Z jcowan: as for macros, you can already use :foo or foo: in them if you want
2019-10-13T17:05:49Z jcowan: just declare them as macro keywords, though you will have a little more work to do to handle them in any order.
2019-10-13T17:13:35Z la_zaifir: Is there a proposal anywhere for let-keywords or let-optionals?  Can't find anything in the wg1 repo or among the SRFIs.
2019-10-13T17:16:47Z jcowan: not yet, feel free to edit http://snow-fort.org/s/gmail.com/alexshinn/chibi/optional/0.7.3/index.html into SRFI format (Art will help if you need it).
2019-10-13T17:17:21Z amz3: that sounds good
2019-10-13T17:17:57Z amz3: I prefer l-o and l-k compared to #:keyword.
2019-10-13T17:19:53Z la_zaifir: jcowan: ty!
2019-10-13T17:26:04Z jcowan: thank *you* for offering to write the SRFI :-)
2019-10-13T17:29:45Z la_zaifir: Nononono, I'm just curious. :)
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2019-10-13T17:39:22Z la_zaifir: They're nice designs, indeed.
2019-10-13T18:01:34Z ecraven: jcowan: I'd be fine with just saying :foo foo: and #:foo are all the same keyword, they are all eq? :D
2019-10-13T18:02:53Z la_zaifir: That'd be a little like Google considering muffin.man@gmail.com and muffinman@gmail.com to be `email-address=?'. :-p
2019-10-13T18:03:41Z ecraven: I can see the appeal of :foo (simple to parse), but also foo: (makes it obvious that it is related to the *following* argument)
2019-10-13T18:03:54Z ecraven: #:foo is fine iff you want to show it is syntax
2019-10-13T18:04:25Z ecraven: jcowan: in the face of case-lambda, is let-optionals still needed?
2019-10-13T18:05:54Z la_zaifir: ecraven: You might want to parse a plist in a non-lambda context.
2019-10-13T18:06:15Z ecraven: let-optionals doesn't take a plist though...
2019-10-13T18:06:43Z ecraven: though I can see reasons to use let-optionals even instead of case-lambda, as it might just make more sense and be simpler to read
2019-10-13T18:07:01Z la_zaifir: Oops, sorry.
2019-10-13T18:09:40Z la_zaifir: ecraven: Yeah.  (lambda args (let-optionals args ((x 0) (y 0) (z 0)) (list x y z))) is a lot clearer than the corresponding case-lambda version.
2019-10-13T18:11:21Z jcowan: Not only that, but potentially more efficient.  If a function is defined by case-lambda and is recursive, you can't tie it into a knot because of the possibility that the function redefines its own name.
2019-10-13T18:12:47Z ecraven: hm.. the api looks nice enough, would be good to have a pure r7rs implementation
2019-10-13T18:13:42Z la_zaifir: jcowan: Ouch, I hadn't thought of that.
2019-10-13T18:16:01Z jcowan: I wish now we had added case-rec or case-define, which already have the names available.
2019-10-13T18:19:47Z ecraven: is it really worth the hassle to make the keyword in `let-keywords' different than the variable name?
2019-10-13T18:19:57Z ecraven: (the optional [keyword] argument in the bindings)
2019-10-13T18:22:14Z jcowan: It is if you like colons in your keywords (along with ')
2019-10-13T18:23:47Z ecraven: well, it seems chibi automatically adds a colon.. but if the srfi *didn't*, then that'd make a lot of sense (and a portable implementation possible ;)
2019-10-13T18:24:34Z amz3: thank *you* for offering to write the SRFI :-)
2019-10-13T18:25:03Z ecraven: right now, I'm only offering to give it a go and implement it in portable r7rs Scheme... *iff* that works, we can talk more ;)
2019-10-13T18:25:21Z amz3: I had to try ;)
2019-10-13T18:25:39Z ecraven: also, most of the writing Alex Shinn already did ;)
2019-10-13T18:25:58Z ecraven: foof isn't here much recently, right?
2019-10-13T18:26:25Z amz3: foof is the nickname of Alex S. I assume?
2019-10-13T18:26:47Z jcowan: yes and yes
2019-10-13T18:29:06Z jcowan: Actually the code looks 100% portable already.  There is an er-macro for optimization but it's conditionalized on being Chibi.
2019-10-13T18:29:27Z ecraven: ah, I haven't investigated that far yet
2019-10-13T18:29:39Z ecraven: I'll just throw it all into one file, and see whether it works on my r7rs-ish chez
2019-10-13T18:29:51Z ecraven: but that would definitely be a nice SRFI that I would use
2019-10-13T18:30:38Z ecraven: though I would remove the magical addition of : at the end of the symbols
2019-10-13T18:33:29Z jcowan: I agree
2019-10-13T18:33:45Z jcowan: 'foo: looks stoopit to me
2019-10-13T18:34:06Z ecraven: well, you can always get that if you want it by just binding it as (foo foo: #f)
2019-10-13T18:34:36Z ecraven: also iff we ever get self-evaluating foo:, it will just magically work, without any changes
2019-10-13T18:36:09Z ecraven: jcowan: I'd also remove opt-lambda as an exported binding
2019-10-13T18:36:39Z jcowan: Why?  It's convenient too.
2019-10-13T18:37:13Z ecraven: why not have key-lambda too, then
2019-10-13T18:38:04Z jcowan: Only if it's easy, I guess.
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2019-10-13T18:43:07Z ecraven: seems to be exactly the same
2019-10-13T18:45:12Z ecraven: now, what about opt-key-rest-lambda :P :D
2019-10-13T18:46:36Z ecraven: also, it seems the let-optionals macro does not actually implement a possible `rest' parameter..
2019-10-13T18:49:42Z amz3: wow termbox code seems very complicated.
2019-10-13T18:49:44Z amz3 hides
2019-10-13T18:49:58Z ecraven: hehe, look at ncurses then.. can't be much worse than that
2019-10-13T18:51:05Z amz3: I already tried ncurse, that is how I end up using termbox, but now I want to re-code termbox using scheme and avoid ffi
2019-10-13T18:51:08Z amz3: well, I wanted.
2019-10-13T18:51:26Z ecraven: well, terminal stuff is a minefield, unless you drop all the complicated stuff
2019-10-13T18:53:19Z amz3: I was said to rely only on vt100
2019-10-13T18:53:30Z weinholt: amz3, https://gitlab.com/weinholt/text-mode
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2019-10-13T18:56:42Z amz3: oh! that is great!
2019-10-13T18:57:58Z weinholt: it uses the ffi to set up the terminal, but you can do that with stty instead
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2019-10-13T18:59:44Z ecraven: I've written to Alex Shinn, asking whether it would be OK to write an SRFI based on the code and documentation for (chibi optional).
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2019-10-14T01:09:04Z Riastradh: jcowan: If you can't do I/O multiplexing or cheap threads, what you have is not a very useful I/O system.
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2019-10-14T01:09:59Z Riastradh: jcowan: re coalescing constants: MIT Scheme does, within a top-level definition.
2019-10-14T01:10:17Z Riastradh: jcowan: I think Scheme48 does constant-coalescing too.
2019-10-14T01:10:36Z jcowan shrugs
2019-10-14T01:11:05Z jcowan: I've done a whole lot with processes and pipes, leaving the I/O multiplexing and the multiprogramming to the kernel.
2019-10-14T01:11:28Z Riastradh: jcowan: Keywords should have Racket semantics!  That is the most important thing to do with keywords!  (The issue of what syntax to use is not particularly important, but #: is ugly as sin, yechh.)
2019-10-14T01:11:33Z jcowan: Does MIT tag each pair with a mutability bit?
2019-10-14T01:12:10Z Riastradh: no
2019-10-14T01:12:21Z jcowan: (so that (set-car! '(a . b) 'c) throws an error?  Coalescing is bad in that case.
2019-10-14T01:12:38Z Riastradh: It does not detect that mistake.
2019-10-14T01:13:21Z jcowan: Well, I'm glad to know that; it means I have to add some warning language to one of my current SRFIs that that is a covert channel.
2019-10-14T01:13:31Z Riastradh: (define (foo x)
2019-10-14T01:13:31Z Riastradh:   (set-car! '(a . b) x)
2019-10-14T01:13:32Z Riastradh:   (car '(a . b)))
2019-10-14T01:13:36Z Riastradh: ; compile the file and load it
2019-10-14T01:13:39Z Riastradh: (foo 5)
2019-10-14T01:13:40Z Riastradh: ;Value: 5
2019-10-14T01:14:12Z jcowan: Ouch ouch ouch
2019-10-14T01:14:40Z Riastradh: That said, if you add (declare (usual-integrations)) [and probably if you do R7RS library stuff which I have never used], then you get the symbol a, because the compiler deduces that (car '(a . b)) returns the symbol a.
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2019-10-14T09:26:05Z ecraven: Riastradh: do racket keywords only have a meaning during compile-time? so #:foo *outside* a keyword function call is meaninglees?
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2019-10-14T12:53:29Z lockywolf_: Is there a scheme which has readable procedures?
2019-10-14T12:54:27Z lockywolf_: I just tried chibi, chez and chicken, and when I try to (write) or (display) a procedure, they all make something like #procedure<bla-bla>.
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2019-10-14T12:58:45Z lockywolf_: guild also does so
2019-10-14T12:59:04Z lockywolf_: *guile
2019-10-14T13:01:35Z jcowan: Very few if any programming languages allow introspection on procedures, which is what would be needed to print them "nicely".  Some JavaScript implementations do so, but they basically just show the source, not the values of closed-over variables.
2019-10-14T13:01:56Z weinholt: maybe termite (gambit), which i think can send closures to remote notes, somehow
2019-10-14T13:02:06Z weinholt: remote nodes, even
2019-10-14T13:05:33Z lockywolf_: gambit...
2019-10-14T13:05:48Z lockywolf_: Well, Emacs Lisp has (symbol-function)
2019-10-14T13:06:16Z gwatt: lockywolf_: What are you trying to do? If this is an acamdemic/interactive curiosity, you could redefine `define' to store the procedure bodies and have a hashtable or alist to retrieve the source form.
2019-10-14T13:06:55Z lockywolf_: just learning
2019-10-14T13:07:23Z gwatt: lockywolf_: does symbol-function actually return the source code in emacs lisp?
2019-10-14T13:07:50Z gwatt: in CL it takes the symbol and looks up the function with the same name and returns the function object.
2019-10-14T13:08:12Z gwatt: But it's still printed #<FUNCTION FOO>
2019-10-14T13:08:39Z lockywolf_: it does
2019-10-14T13:08:52Z lockywolf_: no, not the source code
2019-10-14T13:09:04Z lockywolf_: at least not the original source code
2019-10-14T13:09:29Z lockywolf_: I mean, it is the original source code when dynamic binding is on.
2019-10-14T13:09:59Z lockywolf_: And a (closure ... ) object when lexical-binding is t
2019-10-14T13:10:15Z lockywolf_: Which is usually the case
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2019-10-14T13:11:24Z jcowan: weinholt: Serialized closures on Gambit don't actually serialize the (compiled) code, just the values of free variables, so functionally equivalent code has to be available at the other end.
2019-10-14T13:11:59Z weinholt: such trickery
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2019-10-14T13:16:02Z jcowan: Well, the Gambit at the other end might be running on a different CPU.
2019-10-14T13:16:47Z jcowan: You don't want deserializing a continuation to invoke the compiler (which is in a separate process on Gambit).
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2019-10-14T13:22:16Z erkin: I believe Picolisp allows you to introspect lambdas.
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2019-10-14T14:09:00Z lockywolf: Is there something like (with-timed-exception-handler time handler thunk)?
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2019-10-14T14:09:50Z lockywolf: Which would try to run <thunk> for time, and if it doesn't return, terminate it and run exception handler?
2019-10-14T14:17:07Z jcowan: erkin: Yes, because Picolisp uses dynamic binding unless you tell it to close over named variables (the lexical analogue of CL progv).
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2019-10-14T14:46:22Z erkin: Interesting.
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2019-10-14T15:58:54Z Riastradh: ecraven: Well, #:foo used where?  I expect you can get at the object by quoting it, '#:foo.
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2019-10-14T16:16:09Z ecraven: do I understand correctly that keyword arguments cannot be used with (normal) apply?
2019-10-14T16:16:22Z ecraven: only "directly" where they appear in the code [regarding racket, that is]
2019-10-14T16:16:25Z Riastradh: ecraven: Correct, there's a separate keyword-apply for passing both positional and named arguments.
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2019-10-14T16:28:58Z jcowan: Which I think is the thirteenth stroke of the clock.
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2019-10-14T16:29:20Z jcowan: ("not only dubious in itself, but tending to cast doubt on all the strokes which have come before")
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2019-10-14T17:15:34Z amz3: how are assigned magic bytes?
2019-10-14T17:15:55Z amz3: the thing used by libmagic to guess the kind of thing a binary file is
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2019-10-14T17:20:13Z erkin: You can find a database of those heuristics in /usr/share/file/misc
2019-10-14T17:21:50Z la_zaifir: amz3: First come, first served AFAIK.  Maybe there should be an ICANN of magic bytes...
2019-10-14T17:26:32Z jcowan: Personally I use DEC Radix-50 (see WP) to assign a 16-bit magic number; I also use it to assign ports.
2019-10-14T17:26:44Z jcowan: locally-known server ports, that is
2019-10-14T17:28:52Z la_zaifir: Oh, that's cool.
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2019-10-14T17:30:22Z jcowan: There's a good argument for starting with 0x80 0x0D 0x0A; the first eliminates all ASCII or UTF-8 files, the next two check for corruption by accidential newline conversion.
2019-10-14T17:30:39Z jcowan: then put your format-specific magic after that
2019-10-14T17:31:07Z jcowan: Zip uses ^Z at the end of its magic so that MS-DOS would treat it as an immediate EOF if you read it in text mode.
2019-10-14T17:33:02Z jcowan: no, apparently it was some other format:  ZIP begins PK^C^D\n
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2019-10-14T17:46:10Z amz3: erkin: I have not that file or directory
2019-10-14T17:49:52Z la_zaifir: The location varies.  It's /usr/share/misc/magic.mgc on my Alpine system.
2019-10-14T17:56:02Z jcowan: That's a binary file.  You need to load the source repo for file(1) using "apt-get source file" or equivalent
2019-10-14T17:59:59Z la_zaifir: OpenBSD has a nice bare-bones file(1) with a human-readable text database, /etc/magic
2019-10-14T18:00:01Z gwatt: Riastradh, ecraven: racket actually lets apply handle keyword procedures as well. After what would normally be the final list argument, you can specify keywords and values as if you were calling the procedure normally
2019-10-14T18:01:47Z la_zaifir: amz3: A copy of the OpenBSD magic database: https://github.com/brynet/file/blob/master/magic  The format is described here https://man.openbsd.org/magic.5
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2019-10-14T19:51:15Z Riastradh: gwatt: I assumed ecraven was asking about the analogue of `rest arguments' for keyword arguments.
2019-10-14T19:51:32Z analogue: why hello there
2019-10-14T19:51:52Z Riastradh: ...Is this a metaphor for something?
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2019-10-14T19:52:45Z gwatt: Riastradh: ah, could be.
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2019-10-15T06:09:29Z [rg]: hello
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2019-10-15T07:04:49Z lockywolf__: Why does (srfi 1) have (any), but not (all) or (none)?
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2019-10-15T07:08:46Z dwdv_: There is (every ...) instead of (any ...).
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2019-10-15T07:09:11Z dwdv_: or (all ...) rather.
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2019-10-15T07:32:33Z lockywolf__: thank you
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2019-10-15T11:12:38Z lockywolf: (do) is included in r7rs. Is using it considered a bad practice?
2019-10-15T11:13:40Z pjb: (do) is included in r7rs.
2019-10-15T11:15:42Z lockywolf: I mean, many functional programming tutorials consider using loops not very good.
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2019-10-15T11:19:10Z pjb: scheme is not a purely functionnal programming laguage.
2019-10-15T11:21:06Z lockywolf: I never said it was pure.
2019-10-15T11:24:08Z lockywolf: also, is using (define) somehow worse than (let)?
2019-10-15T11:24:53Z mdhughes: Scheme's in a weird place because it started very purist, but it's often used as a very practical tool.
2019-10-15T11:25:32Z mdhughes: So if you're trying to be religiously pure functional, don't use any state or loops (altho `do` is just sugar for a named let).
2019-10-15T11:25:42Z mdhughes: If you're trying to ship actual software, use whatever works for you.
2019-10-15T11:27:53Z lockywolf: I'm trying to be studious now.
2019-10-15T11:28:46Z lockywolf: So I'd like to learn the most natural way of doing things scheme-way.
2019-10-15T11:29:18Z lockywolf: In r7rs I see a named let, but not named let*
2019-10-15T11:30:40Z mdhughes: Everyone's going to have their own idea of "natural". Reading source helps a lot; I don't much like Racket, but they have a ton of software in their repo.
2019-10-15T11:31:24Z lockywolf: I mean, I can just make a few nested lets, but that's just a bit weird.
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2019-10-15T11:32:02Z mdhughes: I usually don't put many bindings in my named-let, because they have to be passed back in every time.
2019-10-15T11:32:44Z mdhughes: (let loop ((i 0)) (display i) (loop (add1 i)) ) is fine, a lot of chained let* computations is not.
2019-10-15T11:33:51Z mdhughes: But that's me. Others will have a different tolerance for passing data back into a loop.
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2019-10-15T11:36:53Z mdhughes: A lot of my code starts deeply nested as I write it, and then I extract the inner loops as functions until it's down to 2-4 nests at most. Every let is a good candidate for a lambda.
2019-10-15T11:38:06Z lockywolf: a lambda or a define?
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2019-10-15T13:52:48Z mdhughes: Same thing. Most will be defined at top level, but some I'll move to a (let ( (foo (lambda (x) ...)) ) at the top of the function, if they shouldn't be visible elsewhere.
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2019-10-15T14:24:03Z Riastradh: mdhughes: What gives you the impression that Scheme `started very purist'?
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2019-10-15T14:29:27Z mdhughes: The first decade or so it was mostly a teaching language. Were there commercial/practical Schemes before mid-80s?
2019-10-15T14:30:50Z mdhughes: And the very stark minimalism of the R0-R4 specs. R5's the first one that looks like "this is a production language".
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2019-10-15T14:43:40Z lockywolf: Well, scheme still is a teaching language mostly.
2019-10-15T14:44:09Z lockywolf: Especially since Racket claims to not be scheme any more.
2019-10-15T14:44:52Z wasamasa: nah, it's a language for the enthusiast
2019-10-15T14:45:09Z wasamasa: who else would bother with something that's neither popular nor excels in brevity
2019-10-15T14:45:31Z lockywolf: Haskell is a language for the enthusiast. Scheme is a language for masochists.
2019-10-15T14:45:52Z wasamasa: why would you say that?
2019-10-15T14:45:59Z lockywolf shrugs
2019-10-15T14:46:00Z wasamasa: have you ever written C?
2019-10-15T14:46:15Z lockywolf: was my first language
2019-10-15T14:46:26Z wasamasa: now that's what I'd call masochism
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2019-10-15T14:46:34Z wasamasa: subjecting the machine to your ideas of memory management
2019-10-15T14:46:42Z lockywolf: to each according to his faith
2019-10-15T14:47:34Z wasamasa: I need to try really hard to get to be punished by memory management in scheme
2019-10-15T14:47:51Z lockywolf: in my Uni the programming course is usually started from writing an interpreter for an assembly language
2019-10-15T14:48:45Z wasamasa: so, an emulator
2019-10-15T14:49:02Z wasamasa: been there, did that: https://github.com/wasamasa/chip8.el
2019-10-15T14:49:12Z gwatt: I think C and scheme have quite a bit in common. Each is a "do exactly what I say" kind of language. C is just the bits and bytes; scheme is just the lambda calculus. Both have little in the way of hidden corners, provided you write legal code.
2019-10-15T14:49:49Z wasamasa: admittedly, I did miss some of the C tricks, like enums to represent registers
2019-10-15T14:50:02Z wasamasa: or a memcpy function
2019-10-15T14:50:39Z mdhughes: I find Scheme very pleasant, it's closest in style to Python; better performance, somewhat more verbose syntax.
2019-10-15T14:51:46Z wasamasa: I wonder how far I'd need to push scheme to become as convenient for scripting as ruby
2019-10-15T14:53:23Z mdhughes: It's good for most kinds of scripting. I end up with a long library of convenience functions and macros, some of them are just aides-memoire for stuff that's in Chicken's libraries.
2019-10-15T14:53:56Z wasamasa: yeah, but occasionally I just hit the same road block over and over again, like not having a way of obtaining both stdout and exit code from running a process with arguments
2019-10-15T14:54:18Z wasamasa: so I started porting the open3 module
2019-10-15T14:54:23Z mdhughes: Right, that's where you solve it once, write a function to wrap it.
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2019-10-15T14:56:43Z mdhughes: Like, I have a little network server stub that lets me just write a lambda to process commands. Probably took me a week to get it debugged, but now I can make a new service in a few minutes.
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2019-10-15T14:58:10Z wasamasa: I wonder how long until I start porting pwntools and its process interaction commands :D
2019-10-15T14:58:49Z mdhughes: Isn't that what everyone uses the one in GIMP for?
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2019-10-15T14:59:11Z wasamasa: it gives you an abstraction over starting a local/remote process and the primitives to send/read to its fds
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2019-10-15T14:59:26Z wasamasa: so you can do things like automating a cli program presenting you a menu
2019-10-15T14:59:50Z wasamasa: by reading until it finished displaying a prompt, sending a choice, reading the output for that, etc.
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2019-10-15T15:02:23Z wasamasa: the hard part would be implementing a buffered port simulating infinite lookahead
2019-10-15T15:02:54Z wasamasa: one that works no matter whether it's a local process or socket you're talking to
2019-10-15T15:04:38Z mdhughes: That's `expect`. You can do that sorta now, but see the conversation yesterday about jcowan's process spec.
2019-10-15T15:05:31Z wasamasa: I thought expect is local processes only and the reading part is limited to regex matches :D
2019-10-15T15:06:14Z mdhughes: I routinely used expect to drive ftp, mutt, and so on. There's no distinction between ttys.
2019-10-15T15:06:31Z wasamasa: ok
2019-10-15T15:07:02Z mdhughes: The down side of expect is it's goddamned tcl, the worst scripting language every made, by a man who didn't understand parsing ahead of time.
2019-10-15T15:08:55Z wasamasa: yeah, I'd rather avoid learning yet another language :D
2019-10-15T15:12:07Z lockywolf: http://expect.sourceforge.net/doc/autoexpect.pdf
2019-10-15T15:16:39Z Riastradh: mdhughes: Is `teaching language' the same as `purist'?  Have you read the LTU papers?  When you say `purist', that suggests an ideological adherence to the functional paradigm, which is certainly not reflected in the early papers or early Scheme software.
2019-10-15T15:20:32Z Riastradh: I don't know about `commercial', but it certainly came to be used as a tool at MIT and Yale (and probably Indiana but I don't know as much about that).
2019-10-15T15:21:09Z Riastradh: (late '70s, early '80s)
2019-10-15T15:21:09Z mdhughes: I would describe SICP as very purist until late in the text; then it becomes practical, but you'll spend the first 400+ pages in almost pure function land.
2019-10-15T15:22:40Z Riastradh: SICP wasn't published until a decade after Scheme was created, but I dunno, even looking at thte table of contents -- Chapter 3: `Modularity, Objects, and State', Sec. 3.1: `Assignment and Local State'.
2019-10-15T15:24:10Z mdhughes: So, there's no state at all for 200 pages, and functional-scoped state for another 200, and then Chapter 5 Register Machines on 446 addresses the imperfect fallen world of actual hardware.
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2019-10-15T15:27:12Z mdhughes: So, like I said. There's a range of coding styles supported. Pick one that works for you.
2019-10-15T15:27:18Z la_zaifir: It's more an effort to connect the `magic' of the rest of the book with current hardware, rather than somehow admitting it was "all a beautiful dream".
2019-10-15T15:27:26Z Riastradh: There's plenty of `impurity' in SICP, but that aside -- you said `it started very purist'; SICP isn't where Scheme started from.  By the time SICP was published it was being used as a practical tool by multiple research groups at different universities.
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2019-10-15T15:31:54Z Riastradh: SICP considers various ways to approach problems, yes, including functional composition and including sequential state.  My point is that Scheme was _never_ `very purist', not even at the very beginning in 1975.
2019-10-15T15:32:16Z Riastradh: The original 1975 Scheme report even had some very kludgey multiprocessing primitives (which were quickly discovered to be badly designed, and discarded).
2019-10-15T15:35:59Z mdhughes: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3341642
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2019-10-15T15:55:17Z la_zaifir: amz3: WRT to the discussion on schemecomm: Have you looked into the Tox protocol at all? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tox_(protocol)  It may not get much attention these days, but the idea seemed good.  A Scheme implementation of toxcore might be an intriguing p2p project.
2019-10-15T16:02:07Z amz3: la_zaifir: thanks for the link I will study the code carefully
2019-10-15T16:03:54Z wasamasa: la_zaifir: I've given up on looking into tox after learning it's a 4chan project
2019-10-15T16:04:20Z amz3: oh
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2019-10-15T16:05:06Z la_zaifir: wasamasa: It started there, sure.
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2019-10-15T16:07:39Z la_zaifir: wasamasa: It does work, and they used decent tools (NaCL, etc.).  The notion of a purely p2p DHT-based protocol with end-to-end encryption and throwaway addresses is very nice, regardless of the origin of the idea.
2019-10-15T16:09:07Z la_zaifir: There's also a fun FIFO-based CLI client in the spirit of (and by the authors of) ii: http://git.2f30.org/ratox/
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2019-10-15T16:17:32Z amz3: la_zaifir: preliminary review, it is apparantly meant for instant-messaging, not sure if it is the only thing it can do, but that is not the target application I had in mind (question-answer network, mastodon, link aggregator)
2019-10-15T16:23:56Z la_zaifir: amz3: ACK.  Just food for thought.
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2019-10-15T16:58:47Z amz3: that is very good documentation (compared to ipfs) and very interesting.
2019-10-15T17:01:56Z wasamasa: la_zaifir: well, judging from the overall quality of code I've seen on /g/ I wouldn't want to entrust them anything remotely critical
2019-10-15T17:02:19Z wasamasa: la_zaifir: that aside, they've had a fun incident where a team member embezzled the entirety of donations collected so far
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2019-10-15T17:02:36Z wasamasa: la_zaifir: which mirrors the overall scumminess of 4chan
2019-10-15T17:05:03Z la_zaifir: wasamasa: Indeed. :-/  Supposedly the project's in better hands now, but who knows.
2019-10-15T17:06:43Z la_zaifir: wasamasa: Also concerning is that the reference implementation has gotten quite massive and has yet to be audited.
2019-10-15T17:06:54Z wasamasa: not by me
2019-10-15T17:07:20Z wasamasa: if I audit something, it's because someone pays me for it or it's a tiny thing I'm interested in
2019-10-15T17:07:24Z wasamasa: like some scheme library
2019-10-15T17:08:02Z la_zaifir: Right.  Regular code audits was a goal of the Tox folks at some point, and it seems they don't have the time/funds.
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2019-10-15T17:14:21Z amz3: I did not read the code yet, but the protocol has good ideas and made it appear that what I was thinking was wrong and / or flawed.
2019-10-15T17:14:51Z amz3: more eyes, less bugs :)
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2019-10-15T19:19:37Z diemaco: how do I get this to terminate? https://gist.github.com/marcel-hda/1f40a6f364ee479b9be50b2d927deb0d
2019-10-15T19:20:38Z wasamasa: line 15 looks wrong
2019-10-15T19:20:48Z wasamasa: why are you calling bucketbounds with the same arguments again
2019-10-15T19:20:56Z wasamasa: and again
2019-10-15T19:20:58Z wasamasa: and again
2019-10-15T19:21:09Z wasamasa: that can't possibly terminate
2019-10-15T19:21:26Z diemaco: problem is I don't know if it will even work to terminate once the consed list has reached a certain length while recursing
2019-10-15T19:22:10Z diemaco: i need to keep n and l constant with this formula and work off of the length of the list I generate
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2019-10-15T20:47:14Z jcowan: gwatt: the docs for Racket apply say: "Keywords that are included in apply’s list argument do not count as keyword arguments for the called function; instead, all arguments in this list are treated as by-position arguments. To pass a list of keyword arguments to a function, use the keyword-apply function, which accepts a function to apply and three lists. The first two lists are in parallel, where the first list
2019-10-15T20:47:14Z jcowan: contains keywords (sorted by keyword<?), and the second list contains a corresponding argument for each keyword. The third list contains by-position function arguments, as for apply."
2019-10-15T20:48:03Z jcowan: which (a) means that apply doesn't work in full generality (b) is ferociously ugly (two lists instead of a list of pairs, really?)
2019-10-15T20:50:10Z erkin: I've seen the parallel list approach in other Racket procedures too.
2019-10-15T20:50:19Z gwatt: To be fair, I think using apply with keyword arguments is crazy
2019-10-15T20:51:02Z erkin: I can't see the advantage of it, however.
2019-10-15T20:54:18Z jcowan: I think the case is that you want to pass keyword arguments along to procedures you call, i..e. &allow-other-keys.
2019-10-15T20:55:22Z jcowan: So you call apply on them and pass the keywords along; this works in CL and non-Racket Schemes that have keywords but not in Racket.
2019-10-15T20:55:30Z jcowan: s/case/use case
2019-10-15T20:57:39Z Riastradh: Writing out a procedure that passes along all its arguments to something else doesn't strike me as something important to optimize for.
2019-10-15T20:58:49Z Riastradh: What's more important is that you can't accidentally confuse positional arguments with named arguments in Racket.
2019-10-15T20:59:13Z la_zaifir: Riastradh the Relentless :)
2019-10-15T21:03:44Z la_zaifir: What exactly is the relation between positional parameter lists and plists?
2019-10-15T21:05:11Z la_zaifir: (If there is any.)
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2019-10-15T21:12:18Z jcowan: A plist is just a list which by convention takes the form (key value key value ...); it's analogous to an alist, which is ((key . value) (key . value) ...)
2019-10-15T21:13:18Z la_zaifir: But isn't a plist traditionally `associated with' a unique symbol?
2019-10-15T21:13:21Z jcowan: In CL, but not in Scheme, every symbol has a plist on which you can hang whatever properties you want the symbol to be associated with.  Consequently, historic p-list operations mutate the plist, whereas it's typical to just cons things on the front of an alist.
2019-10-15T21:14:40Z jcowan: I like plists when you don't have self-evaluating keywords, because `(key1 ,value1 key2 ,value2) is more readable than `((key1 . ,value1) (key2 . ,value2)) IMO
2019-10-15T21:14:53Z la_zaifir: Right, right.
2019-10-15T21:16:26Z la_zaifir: OK, in CL (and CHICKEN, I note) plists are mutable structures which are sort of `boxed' by a symbol.
2019-10-15T21:16:27Z jcowan: In older Lisps (cdr 'x) returned x's plist, so there were "disembodied plist" functions that ignored the first pair.  In CL such uses of cdr were changed to symbol-plist and the functions were revised not to ignore the first pair.
2019-10-15T21:17:13Z jcowan: So if you write (foo 'key1 value1 'key2 value 2) where (define foo x ...), x is a plist.
2019-10-15T21:18:00Z la_zaifir: Very interesting.
2019-10-15T21:18:29Z jcowan: Another difference is that whereas in alists you look at the car of each element when searching for the key, in plists you look at every element, as if with memq.  This means that you can have keys without values ("indicators"), but you must be careful with them.
2019-10-15T21:19:27Z jcowan admits that it was him who persuaded the Chickeneers to make plists a standard part of Chicken; before that they were a build-time option.
2019-10-15T21:22:24Z la_zaifir: Is this related to the behavior of memq and friends, i.e. returning the sublist with the matching car?
2019-10-15T21:25:42Z mdhughes: Also plists are easily confused by having any value with the value of the key: (list 'a a 'b b) will give an incorrect result if (set! a 'b).
2019-10-15T21:26:02Z mdhughes: alist (list (cons 'a a) (cons 'b b)) can't be confused that way.
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2019-10-15T23:01:11Z jcowan: mdhughes: True.  That's why it would be good to have a disjoint or mostly-disjoint keyword type.
2019-10-15T23:01:30Z jcowan: But it's SOCIAL-hard to get there from here.
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2019-10-15T23:18:34Z kjak: mdhughes: you just cddr down the plist when looking for the key. is there an implementation that actually gives an incorrect result for your case?
2019-10-15T23:20:13Z kjak: or did i miss your point?
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2019-10-15T23:27:52Z dgtlcmo: Frege
2019-10-15T23:28:49Z dgtlcmo: So why hasn't Scheme or Lisp seen more widespread adoption in software engineering?  The laguages seems more intuitive and simplier to understand.  Perhaps due to early performance issues?
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2019-10-15T23:49:41Z hansbauer[m]: Not really. Engineers are addicted to Matlab from day zero on universities. They cannot live without Simulink.
2019-10-15T23:52:05Z hansbauer[m]: Ow... I misunderstood what you said. You said software engineering. Sorry.
2019-10-15T23:52:57Z hansbauer[m]: Maybe I'm just upset I cannot use scheme or cl in engineering.
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2019-10-16T00:00:39Z la_zaifir: "Software engineering ... has now adopted as its charter `How to program if you cannot.'" --Dijkstra, EWD 898
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2019-10-16T01:33:37Z lockywolf_: jcowan, the link in srfi-1 is broken
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2019-10-16T01:40:21Z jcowan: send an email to srfi-editors@srfi.schemers.org, please; he's the only person who can act.  If you have and he hasn't, just give him time.
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2019-10-16T02:04:33Z dto: my latest adventures in elisp microtonal musical score editor which compiles to scheme
2019-10-16T02:04:33Z dto:  audio code: http://xelf.me/tones.png
2019-10-16T02:04:49Z dto: several musical ideas https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/WzbkQBQe/violin-123.mp3
2019-10-16T02:06:05Z siraben: dto:  Cool! Is it open source?
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2019-10-16T02:11:47Z dto: siraben: yep!
2019-10-16T02:12:05Z dto: MIT licensed (although there are some GPL components as part of the Emacs intrefaces of the programs it uses)
2019-10-16T02:12:14Z dto: siraben: http://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el
2019-10-16T02:12:20Z dto: or http://xelf.me/scheme-mosaic.html
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2019-10-16T02:43:15Z lockywolf_: jcowan, I wrote an email to webmaster speechcode.com. I hope that is not deemed inappropriate.
2019-10-16T02:48:02Z lockywolf_: Is there a REPL srfi? Or is there a reason why there shouldn't be one?
2019-10-16T02:48:54Z jcowan: I assume that will work, but I don't actually know.
2019-10-16T02:49:28Z jcowan: I have a pre-SRFI for a REPL at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ReplCowan.md
2019-10-16T02:49:51Z jcowan: It's not so much is it appropriate, it's will he get it.
2019-10-16T02:54:26Z lockywolf_: This pre-SRFI doesn't care about debugging or tab-completion at all?
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2019-10-16T02:55:32Z lockywolf_: I am thinking about printing stack trace portably without instrumenting the code.
2019-10-16T02:56:33Z lockywolf_: I think Emacs Lisp can print stack trace without instrumenting the code, but it does need to instrument the code to carry source information.
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2019-10-16T03:16:40Z lockywolf_: In some srfis, procedures are declared as <code class="proc-def">pretty</code>. Does this mean that it is possible to automagically extract the list of provided names from an srfi document? If yes, does it mean that it is possible to make a system to automatically check srfi compliance (at least with respect to availability) portably?
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2019-10-16T03:24:13Z jcowan: lockywolf_: It's about hooking into whatever REPL an implementation provides so that you can control the R, E, and P.
2019-10-16T03:24:40Z jcowan: Changes to SRFIs to make that possible are being worked on, but not complete yet.
2019-10-16T03:30:01Z lockywolf_: Also, am I the only one who would like (try-to-run-for-seconds-or-fail seconds form) to exist?
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2019-10-16T03:49:14Z lockywolf_: jcowan, is there a list of reformatted/todo srfis?
2019-10-16T03:49:48Z jcowan: Start at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ColorDockets.md and follow the links.
2019-10-16T03:57:02Z lockywolf_: Sorry, I meant already existing srfis. Not all of them have "proc-def", have they?
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2019-10-16T04:07:14Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: Cancellation can be tricky business.
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2019-10-16T04:08:25Z Riastradh: lockywolf_: Here's what I wrote for MIT Scheme's test suite: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/tests/unit-testing.scm#n704
2019-10-16T04:08:37Z Riastradh: (But it uses lots of MIT Scheme internals.)
2019-10-16T04:10:31Z lockywolf_: Riastradh, you mean, for (try-to-run-seconds-or-fail)?
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2019-10-16T04:13:28Z lockywolf_: I'll to learn from it.
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2019-10-16T05:53:51Z mdhughes: kjak: plists have this problem: http://paste.debian.net/1107414
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2019-10-16T06:34:00Z lockywolf_: Is there some idiomatic way to write (accumulate-until-true op start sequence)?
2019-10-16T06:35:24Z lockywolf_: (accumulate) goes through all the sequence, whereas I only want to iterate until the accumulation "finds" something useful.
2019-10-16T06:36:21Z lockywolf_: Now I am doing it with a named let.
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2019-10-16T07:12:52Z mdhughes: Maybe a (map ... (take-while ... seq))
2019-10-16T07:15:45Z mdhughes: The most useful SRFI is the first: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html
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2019-10-16T08:35:34Z amz3: re tox: according to the documentation the some private key is leaked during dht lookup: https://github.com/Tox-Docs/Text/blob/master/src_text/DHT.txt#L15
2019-10-16T08:37:19Z amz3: re accamulate: parse combinators would be overkill but it would look like something like: (zero-or-more (parse-unless some-predicate parse-any))
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2019-10-16T15:00:25Z mdhughes: Implausible feature I'd like to see: When I write a constant in hex, the number should remain in hex for display. ARGB colors and binary math would be much nicer.
2019-10-16T15:01:44Z mdhughes: The obvious "you don't want that" for colors is I should be using a 4-vector of doubles for HDR color.
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2019-10-16T16:08:52Z rain1: hello
2019-10-16T16:10:09Z jcowan: mdhughes: from this we conclude that numbers should have plists.
2019-10-16T16:10:28Z jcowan: (In DSSSL, characters do have plists)
2019-10-16T16:11:14Z jcowan: dpk: your main limitation to advancement as an IEist is the regrettable length of your surname
2019-10-16T16:11:32Z jcowan: sorry, ww
2019-10-16T16:17:39Z mdhughes: jcowan: In the CL sense? Yes. That would be totally reasonable. More or less turns it into an "everything is an object" language like JS, which I'm sure we all want.
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2019-10-16T16:25:51Z dpk: boxing every integer?
2019-10-16T16:26:29Z dpk: i mean, CPython does it, but PyPy decided that was too silly
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2019-10-16T16:37:12Z jcowan: No, boxing only numbers that have non-empty plists.
2019-10-16T16:41:20Z jcowan: CPython was written by people who believed in always using the dumbest and most straightforward method of doing anything.
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2019-10-16T17:20:35Z mdhughes: You don't even need to box them, just have a database that stores the plist for any value.
2019-10-16T17:21:29Z la_zaifir: What's the primary advantage of associating plists with values, anyway?
2019-10-16T17:23:25Z la_zaifir: (As opposed to just defining or binding your dictionary structure like a noimal poison.)
2019-10-16T17:27:51Z mdhughes: In CL, it's used for attributes like function docs. But you can use it for all kinds of annotations and associated functions like how to display, read, write objects…
2019-10-16T17:28:44Z la_zaifir: Ah, that makes perfect sense.
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2019-10-16T19:39:14Z kjak: mdhughes: re: plists.  like i said before, you cddr down the plist when looking for the key.  of course a member function will get it wrong in that case because a member function is not what you use for plists...
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2019-10-16T19:48:55Z la_zaifir: kjak: But what if you're looking for a key that's also a value?
2019-10-16T19:50:09Z la_zaifir: I suppose cddr would mostly avoid that problem, provided you also check that the cddr exists.
2019-10-16T19:50:26Z kjak: la_zaifir: you don't look at the values. you CDDR down the list.
2019-10-16T19:50:35Z kjak: yes, i've been saying cddr down the list.
2019-10-16T19:52:27Z kjak: i'm not where the assumption of using a member function came from
2019-10-16T19:52:46Z kjak: *not sure where
2019-10-16T20:07:25Z Riastradh: mdhughes: Maybe what you want is for parts of the program to treat numbers differently according to where they are in the program, without adding runtime overhead.  Like some kind of database of annotations on how parts of the program should interpret things.  Same number, but different type of meaning; maybe we could call them `types'...
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2019-10-16T21:07:54Z jcowan: I was saying that when you look for an indicator you use memq.
2019-10-16T21:10:51Z jcowan: (a bare indicator, as opposed to an indicator with a value)
2019-10-16T21:11:30Z jcowan: Anyway, it seems that CLHS says plists have to alternate; plists with bare indicators are no longer expected to work as they were in earlier Lisps.
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2019-10-16T21:15:25Z la_zaifir: Yeah, a valueless key would totally break the cddr trick.
2019-10-16T21:15:40Z kjak: aha, i missed that but i see it now.
2019-10-16T21:17:34Z kjak: do you know which lisps allowed that before? from a quick look it seems both Franz and Lisp Machine Lisp required an even number of elements for plists. based on that i'm guessing Maclisp did too, but i'm not sure.
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2019-10-16T21:35:31Z gwatt: That's the best approach to plists anyway.
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2019-10-16T21:42:55Z kjak: i think supporting a bare indicator in a plist like that is silly, but i'm hoping to learn something based on when/why it was apparently supported before.
2019-10-16T21:43:37Z kjak: because i didn't know that bare indicators were a thing in plists
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2019-10-16T21:54:05Z Riastradh: First I ever heard of that...
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2019-10-16T23:24:31Z jcowan: Well, I remember reading about it in the Dartmouth Lisp manual, which I stole from the U.S. Naval Academy.
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2019-10-16T23:27:20Z jcowan: Alas, apparently nobody has scanned that manual.  I learned an immense amount of Lisp from just reading the definitions of the library procedures.
2019-10-16T23:29:18Z Riastradh: Dartmouth Lisp manual?
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2019-10-16T23:42:46Z edgar-rft: How can it be scanned if you have stolen it?
2019-10-16T23:46:37Z edgar-rft: Riastradh: see -> https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/faqs/lang/lisp/part2/faq-doc-13.html
2019-10-16T23:48:45Z edgar-rft: There is barely nothing documented before Lisp 1.5 -> https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/faqs/lang/lisp/part2/faq-doc-13.html
2019-10-16T23:49:13Z jcowan: I stole one copy of it; there were many there.
2019-10-16T23:49:39Z jcowan: Not as many as the Basic or Fortran manuals, to be sure.
2019-10-16T23:49:51Z edgar-rft: sorry, wrong link, use this one instead -> www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/
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2019-10-17T00:40:57Z nisstyre: jcowan: can you clear something up for me? Is this explanation accurate? https://ideone.com/MYLX1L
2019-10-17T00:41:21Z nisstyre: my understanding is that a compliant Scheme implementation will do closure conversion by first creating the function/procedure body, then calculating free vars
2019-10-17T00:41:29Z nisstyre: then binding them to an environment or whatever
2019-10-17T00:42:02Z nisstyre: I'm actually not sure if the name of a function is a free variable in that function
2019-10-17T00:43:42Z nisstyre: I discovered some languages will actually do the bindings before the function is created
2019-10-17T00:43:48Z nisstyre: which seems counterintuitive to me
2019-10-17T00:44:13Z nisstyre: (e.g. Golang and Dlang both do it that way)
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2019-10-17T01:12:00Z Riastradh: edgar-rft: Not much about DTSS Lisp there?
2019-10-17T01:12:55Z Riastradh: (Dartmouth Lisp)
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2019-10-17T01:40:32Z mdhughes: Riastradh: Scheme already has types, it just doesn't need to burden you with writing declarations all over; static typing is you doing the computer's work. A pointer is a pointer, the object knows what it is. I just want an object that's a number but displays as hex.
2019-10-17T01:43:58Z nisstyre: scheme is strongly typed yeah
2019-10-17T01:44:07Z nisstyre: that doesn't mean it knows the type of everything at compile time
2019-10-17T01:49:06Z mdhughes: And you don't ever need that. It can make a compiler faster, but if you put that in the language, you've failed as a language designer.
2019-10-17T01:51:43Z Riastradh: ...yes, providing tools to help programmers prove theorems about their programs and to express decisions in a program before it runs is failure as a language designer...
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2019-10-17T02:00:24Z mdhughes: Right. I'm not here to prove theorems, that only makes people sad and angry. I'm here to build useful applications that make people happy.
2019-10-17T02:02:39Z Riastradh: I like getting confidence that applications will actually work as intended, but I guess you have an ideological objection to an entire class of tools for doing that, which might explain why you get sad and angry.
2019-10-17T02:02:59Z Riastradh: Tools like `math', `logic', &c.
2019-10-17T02:04:59Z mdhughes: I get to do math and logic at a higher level where I just express what I want, rather than fighting some rule system to "prove" things to a machine. The machine exists to serve me, not the other way around.
2019-10-17T02:06:22Z mdhughes: Anyway. I'm done mocking you for now. I have coffee and useful things to code. :)
2019-10-17T02:06:24Z Riastradh: But it's only allowed to serve you if it DOESN'T check your work for you!
2019-10-17T02:07:01Z shachaf: Why is knowing facts about your program before you run it a case of you serving the machine?
2019-10-17T02:07:23Z shachaf: Or, sure, having the machine check those facts.
2019-10-17T02:07:38Z Riastradh: shachaf: Incompatible with a certain ideology...
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2019-10-17T02:10:26Z Riastradh: nisstyre: In (define f ...), the scope of ... includes the new binding of f so it can refer to itself recursively; this may shadow an enclosing binding for the name f, so inside the ... you can only refer to the inner f, not the outer f.
2019-10-17T02:10:44Z nisstyre: Riastradh: that's what I thought
2019-10-17T02:10:50Z nisstyre: recursive closures
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2019-10-17T02:11:11Z nisstyre: I wonder why so many languages don't allow you to refer to the binding without some kind of prototype
2019-10-17T02:11:22Z Riastradh: ?
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2019-10-17T02:11:47Z nisstyre: Riastradh: in D/Go you can do recursive closures, but you have to declare a prototype before defining the function
2019-10-17T02:12:24Z nisstyre: so I just wanted to understand what Scheme is doing differently from those languages
2019-10-17T02:12:53Z nisstyre: if you don't declare the prototype, the inner f refers to the top level one
2019-10-17T02:13:10Z nisstyre: anyway, it's not a huge thing
2019-10-17T02:14:03Z Riastradh: nisstyre: Presumably whatever you're doing in D/Go corresponds to (let ((x ...)) ...) rather than (begin (define x ...) ...) or (letrec ((x ...)) ...).
2019-10-17T02:14:47Z nisstyre: yeah, it's something like that
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2019-10-17T02:15:47Z Riastradh: It's a little easier to reason about programs that have non-recursive bindings like (let ((x ...)) ...), so it's reasonable to have that as a default.
2019-10-17T02:15:52Z nisstyre: https://run.dlang.io/is/MjmUxm vs https://run.dlang.io/is/I6UYyg
2019-10-17T02:16:10Z Riastradh: But, it may also be a little conciser to write programs with recursive bindings, so.
2019-10-17T02:16:47Z nisstyre: Riastradh: I found that if you have a top level function 'f', and then you do (set! f (lambda () ...)) you can refer to the new f just fine in the body
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2019-10-17T02:17:05Z nisstyre: I've never even considered that before, but it kinda makes sense
2019-10-17T02:17:08Z Riastradh: Sure, but that's just because you're still referring to the same _variable binding_; it just has a new value.
2019-10-17T02:17:13Z nisstyre: yep
2019-10-17T02:17:21Z nisstyre: that one makes sense as well
2019-10-17T02:17:33Z Riastradh: You can also do (let ((f 0)) (set! f (lambda () ...)) ...) instead of (let () (define (f) ...) ...).
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2019-10-17T02:43:35Z jcowan: nisstyre: The name of a procedure is not in general free in the procedure, but all top-level identifiers are free in the bodies of top-level procedures.
2019-10-17T02:44:32Z nisstyre: jcowan: yeah that clears things up for me, thanks
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2019-10-17T17:15:57Z amz3: noise.
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2019-10-17T17:24:39Z la_zaifir: amz3: You're ruining today's ratio :-)
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2019-10-17T18:00:00Z amz3: I present to you the libp2p project: https://git.sr.ht/~libp2p/
2019-10-17T18:00:16Z amz3: I have been dreaming of such occasion to do "project name" war.
2019-10-17T18:00:32Z amz3: see https://github.com/libp2p/
2019-10-17T18:00:41Z wasamasa: what war?
2019-10-17T18:00:42Z gwatt: what is a "project name war"
2019-10-17T18:00:55Z wasamasa: you really think they give a shit about a scheme project?
2019-10-17T18:01:14Z wasamasa: consider for a moment that mono wins over CHICKEN when it comes to the csc conflict
2019-10-17T18:01:30Z amz3: gwatt: war or fight. Basically there is a name clash
2019-10-17T18:02:56Z amz3: I need a purpose :o)
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2019-10-17T18:22:12Z la_zaifir: amz3: Is this an implementation of this https://github.com/scheme-live/peer-to-peer ?
2019-10-17T18:22:24Z la_zaifir: s/Is this/Will this be/
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2019-10-17T18:33:33Z la_zaifir: amz3: Following the ml discussion, it's not quite clear what you're building here.  Is this a spec for a Scheme interface to some p2p protocol, or a client application of some sort?
2019-10-17T18:36:39Z la_zaifir: amz3: e.g. the `peer-to-peer' repo looks like the outline for a protocol library, but you're also asking about what GUIs people prefer, etc.  I'm confused.
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2019-10-17T18:44:17Z belmarca: amz3 that is an empty repo
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2019-10-17T18:47:34Z amz3: belmarca and la_zaifir: it will be.
2019-10-17T18:48:41Z amz3: la_zaifir: I am asking about GUI to maximize the chances people will eventually run the app that will be powered by peer-to-peer
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2019-10-17T18:49:29Z amz3: I did not decide yet what app it will be, I think about a question-answer network or twitter-clone.
2019-10-17T18:50:45Z amz3: I want to submit a Scheme interface to some p2p protocol to SRFI, the application will not be part of SRFI, the purpose is to have an interface that is generic enough to implement various apps.
2019-10-17T18:51:38Z la_zaifir: amz3: OK.  Then it's a bit premature to talk about the design of programs that will use it.
2019-10-17T18:52:03Z amz3: design in what sense?
2019-10-17T18:52:48Z la_zaifir: amz3: Well, anything beyond a very general sense of how they would use the protocol.
2019-10-17T18:54:11Z erkin: Does the world need yet another macro tutorial?
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2019-10-17T18:55:24Z erkin: I've written a blogpost (not yet published) that examines each macro system available to Schemers, since newbies seem to confused about syntax-rules and syntax-case, especially regarding their differences, and how they differ from define-macro.
2019-10-17T18:55:29Z amz3: I do both bottom-up and top-down research. I need to think about what kind of app the peer-to-peer network will be possible to build to design the protocol correctly.
2019-10-17T18:55:57Z erkin: I might flesh it out to a complete tutorial if it's not going to be a waste of time.
2019-10-17T18:58:39Z amz3: erkin: that is a good idea, by the way can you add in the small tutorial "how to turn a syntax object of a list into its component?" please? I keep needing that and I forget.
2019-10-17T18:58:52Z erkin: Component?
2019-10-17T18:59:06Z amz3: yeah the syntax of list to a list of syntax
2019-10-17T18:59:11Z erkin: Oh
2019-10-17T18:59:20Z la_zaifir: amz3: IMHO, designing a protocol with a too-specific application in mind can the death-knell for building something useful.  Successful protocols like TCP are very useful because of their generality.
2019-10-17T18:59:22Z nisstyre: amz3: I suggest joining the cap-talk mailing list and floating your ideas
2019-10-17T18:59:28Z la_zaifir: s/can/can be/
2019-10-17T18:59:28Z nisstyre: the people on there are very knowledgeable
2019-10-17T19:00:40Z la_zaifir: amz3: And if the client software you want to build gets tangled up with the protocol, it could become one big unholy mess.
2019-10-17T19:00:51Z erkin: amz3: (syntax->list (datum->syntax #f your-list-here))
2019-10-17T19:00:53Z la_zaifir: (The world already has one systemd.)
2019-10-17T19:01:18Z nisstyre: amz3: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/captalk
2019-10-17T19:01:44Z la_zaifir: Has anyone worked on/know someone who works on the Scheme WikiBook? https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Scheme_Programming
2019-10-17T19:01:52Z la_zaifir: It looks like it could use some attention.
2019-10-17T19:02:14Z erkin: That's the one based on SCM, right?
2019-10-17T19:02:44Z la_zaifir: erkin: So it seems.
2019-10-17T19:08:08Z la_zaifir: amz3: The big question which AFACT is not answered in your draft is, what does this do?  Is this a way to send and receive data, and, if so, how does peer-to-peer enter into it?
2019-10-17T19:08:18Z amz3: la_zaifir: I agree that picking application beforehand is risk to build something that is too specific. I do not think it will a silver bullet, the prototype is not. At the same time, going "generic" or "general" take the risk of never achieving anything useable.
2019-10-17T19:10:27Z amz3: la_zaifir: the current draft, describe data-structure shared in a non-trusted environment, there is an immutable hash-table where the key is always the hash of the value. There is namespce datastructure that rely on cryptographic signature to provide mutable hash-table and there is the mutable 'bag' that will rename 'hut' or 'hub'.
2019-10-17T19:11:12Z amz3: la_zaifir: it rely on UDP but the document does not explain it yet.
2019-10-17T19:12:18Z la_zaifir: amz3: OK, but that doesn't clarify anything.  What are we supposed to make of `bag' and `namespace' procedures if it's not clear what the library does?
2019-10-17T19:12:34Z la_zaifir: amz3: Seriously, in 8 words, what does it do?
2019-10-17T19:14:16Z amz3: la_zaifir: it is three data-structures shared between peers (7 words)
2019-10-17T19:15:26Z la_zaifir: amz3: But that's still a very low-level description.
2019-10-17T19:15:33Z belmarca: erkin sure why not
2019-10-17T19:16:02Z erkin: I wouldn't want to make something unnecessary. :-P
2019-10-17T19:16:14Z belmarca: amz3 syntax->list?
2019-10-17T19:17:05Z erkin: Here's the crude draft so far https://clbin.com/0hwPE
2019-10-17T19:17:13Z erkin: Critique & commentary appreciated
2019-10-17T19:17:16Z belmarca: amz3 seems like a solution looking for a problem!
2019-10-17T19:17:32Z amz3: la_zaifir: it is a distributed database (6 words)/
2019-10-17T19:17:34Z la_zaifir: amz3: OK, how about this--what's the model of peer-to-peer communication that these structures implement?
2019-10-17T19:17:39Z amz3: belmarca: sorry, I don't understand.
2019-10-17T19:17:40Z la_zaifir: amz3: Better!
2019-10-17T19:18:23Z belmarca: amz3 well you are introducing a library as an empty git repo and are looking for apps to build on top of it, I'm confused.
2019-10-17T19:18:42Z belmarca: is there a reason you cannot ffi to libp2p?
2019-10-17T19:19:16Z amz3: belmarca: I made a prototype (in another programming language). the spec we are discussing is https://github.com/scheme-live/peer-to-peer#peer-to-peer
2019-10-17T19:19:29Z amz3: nisstyre: I subscribed to both captalk mailling lists.
2019-10-17T19:19:34Z belmarca: right
2019-10-17T19:20:06Z belmarca: that should/could be in the git repo you linked before
2019-10-17T19:22:01Z amz3: nisstyre: the active ml is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/cap-talk
2019-10-17T19:22:42Z nisstyre: amz3: yes I'm on there
2019-10-17T19:23:00Z gwatt: erkin: slight nitpick: saying syntax-case is "A standard part of Scheme since R6RS" implies to me that syntax-case is standardized in R7RS.
2019-10-17T19:23:17Z nisstyre: I mostly lurk though
2019-10-17T19:23:28Z gwatt: It might also be nice to talk about ir/er-macro-transformers
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2019-10-17T19:25:01Z gwatt: Ah, those will probably be taken care of in the "TODO: the rest" section under Chicken
2019-10-17T19:25:24Z erkin: Yeah
2019-10-17T19:25:40Z erkin: And yeah I'll word that better to state it's an R6RS thing.
2019-10-17T19:25:53Z belmarca: erkin looks good, what is your audience though? you seem to expect people to know what quoting and quasiquoting etc is about.
2019-10-17T19:25:56Z la_zaifir: erkin: I might suggest sticking define-macro at the end as a sort of appendix.
2019-10-17T19:26:24Z erkin: belmarca: People who know Scheme a bit but don't know much about macros.
2019-10-17T19:26:26Z la_zaifir: erkin: Unless you're stuck with TinyScheme, there are better options!
2019-10-17T19:26:45Z erkin: Hmm
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2019-10-17T19:28:30Z la_zaifir: erkin: Since I'm looking at it, I wonder if we could add some of this to the WikiBook https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Scheme_Programming/Macros
2019-10-17T19:29:01Z la_zaifir: That's a fairly sizeable chapter already, actually.
2019-10-17T19:30:20Z la_zaifir: ... if not incredibly helpful.
2019-10-17T19:30:33Z erkin: I like how it also starts with defmacro.
2019-10-17T19:30:54Z belmarca: erkin I would spend less time showing examples which lack enough information (e.g. listing 9, what is stx, why is it passed to datum->syntax) and more time discussing the transition from simple non-contextual transformations to transformations which rely on syntactic context and preserve hygiene etc
2019-10-17T19:30:59Z belmarca: sort of a ladder
2019-10-17T19:32:04Z belmarca: anyway, there is value in such a blog post, if that is what you were worried about.
2019-10-17T19:32:33Z erkin: But is it worth expanding on it and turning it into a tutorial?
2019-10-17T19:32:54Z erkin: And that's a good idea!
2019-10-17T19:33:14Z amz3: I like that it starts with defmacro too
2019-10-17T19:34:26Z la_zaifir: The problem with starting with unhygienic macros is that you must then explain the need for hygienic macros.
2019-10-17T19:34:51Z erkin: The define-macro portion is more or less complete. I would only need to add counterexamples, such as showing the difficulty of writing multiple pattern clauses.
2019-10-17T19:35:21Z erkin: And yeah, I haven't demonstrated syntax-rules' literal tokens too.
2019-10-17T19:35:27Z belmarca: la_zaifir: if you present it well it should be natural
2019-10-17T19:35:27Z erkin: s/too/either/
2019-10-17T19:37:11Z erkin: What would be a good example to that? I'm thinking of case.
2019-10-17T19:37:22Z la_zaifir: belmarca: Well, substitution is very hairy and requires some background to explain.
2019-10-17T19:37:36Z la_zaifir: erkin: cond arrow.
2019-10-17T19:37:46Z erkin: Oh yeah.
2019-10-17T19:39:29Z amz3: maybe full defmacro tutorial will require to explain gensym
2019-10-17T19:39:45Z erkin: Should I get rid of the part talking about textual substitution?
2019-10-17T19:39:54Z la_zaifir: erkin: Depending on how far you want to go, you might also include some material on continuation-passing or state-machine-style macros.
2019-10-17T19:39:55Z erkin: I think a Scheme programmer would already think it's a bad idea.
2019-10-17T19:40:10Z erkin: Like CK machines?
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2019-10-17T19:40:52Z la_zaifir: JRM's syntax-rules Primer has some good examples of FSM macros.  http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf
2019-10-17T19:40:52Z erkin: If I'm going to make a tutorial, I might as well put some effort into it. :-P
2019-10-17T19:41:30Z erkin: I should also demonstrate recursive macros.
2019-10-17T19:41:38Z la_zaifir: erkin: I'd be happy to help, if needed.
2019-10-17T19:41:47Z erkin: Thanks! :-)
2019-10-17T19:42:28Z erkin: So, let's see what needs to be added...
2019-10-17T19:42:34Z gwatt: erkin: I think text substitution deserves a mention. It's what you get in C, and some examples of the absolute nonsense you can do are instructional.
2019-10-17T19:42:42Z belmarca: there is value in being concise
2019-10-17T19:42:53Z belmarca: there's always the racket docs and others to get more in-depth
2019-10-17T19:42:59Z la_zaifir: Oleg's minor masterpiece, pmatch, is a great continuation-passing example https://github.com/webyrd/quines/blob/master/pmatch.scm
2019-10-17T19:43:02Z belmarca: unless you truly want to write a very long blog
2019-10-17T19:43:32Z erkin: I don't want to bore readers though.
2019-10-17T19:43:50Z belmarca: better to give references then.
2019-10-17T19:45:31Z erkin: Example of textual substitution butchering sexp, what gensym is and why it's necessary, defmacro failing at transparently composing with examples and how syntax-rules overcomes those problems, multiple clause syntax-rules, recursive syntax-rules
2019-10-17T19:46:01Z erkin: I think I should push state machines and continuation passing style macros to the "Where to go from here?" section before talking about implementation specific macro models.
2019-10-17T19:46:24Z erkin: Am I missing anything?
2019-10-17T19:47:02Z gwatt: Are you going to give examples of writing your own bespoke macro systems?
2019-10-17T19:47:03Z la_zaifir: Maybe that a major difference between defmacro and syntax-rules is that the syntax-rules pattern/template languages IS NOT SCHEME!
2019-10-17T19:47:13Z la_zaifir: That's a major potential pitfall.
2019-10-17T19:47:43Z erkin: Oh yeah, I should probably mention that upfront.
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2019-10-17T19:49:46Z la_zaifir: Also, macro debugging.
2019-10-17T19:49:52Z gwatt: I think the lead-in to hygienic macros is poorly worded. Any macro definition is now part of the language, be it textual substitution or AST manipulation.
2019-10-17T19:50:40Z erkin: You have a point. Maybe I should go for the "a mini compiler in your code" analogy.
2019-10-17T19:51:16Z gwatt: I think of hygienic vs unhygienic like lexical vs dynamic scope.
2019-10-17T19:52:10Z gwatt: If I have an `a' defined oustide the macro's usage and the macro defines an `a' inside itself, those `a's will not conflict
2019-10-17T19:52:29Z gwatt: that's hygiene, everything else is decoration.
2019-10-17T19:52:33Z belmarca: erkin it's not a "mini" compiler, it's just a compiler
2019-10-17T19:52:44Z la_zaifir: erkin: (Sorry, one more thing.)  I think a short discussion of "Why Macros?" would also be good to cover some of the general reasons for writing macros.
2019-10-17T19:53:00Z erkin: Don't say sorry, I need as much commentary as possible. :-)
2019-10-17T19:53:11Z erkin: And that's a great idea.
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2019-10-17T20:05:28Z erkin: gwatt: Should I give examples of textual substitution macros in C or Scheme?
2019-10-17T20:05:55Z gwatt: Are there any textual substitution macro systems in scheme?
2019-10-17T20:06:02Z erkin: Well, a hypothetical one.
2019-10-17T20:08:17Z gwatt: I would just give examples in C then. Anyone who's interested in playing along at home will have something they can actually interact with
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2019-10-17T20:10:55Z gwatt: I think a really eye-opening example is replacing the control flow structures with macros. That will showcase how you can return incomplete syntax trees and that you have to be very careful when using them
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2019-10-17T20:12:38Z erkin: How do you mean?
2019-10-17T20:13:02Z erkin: Like not evaluating parts of the tree as in `if` et al?
2019-10-17T20:17:30Z gwatt: erkin: https://pastebin.com/L5shyfHm
2019-10-17T20:18:07Z erkin: Can you use something else? Pastebin.com is blocked in my country.
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2019-10-17T20:19:38Z gwatt: http://dpaste.com/1DRRVHC
2019-10-17T20:19:56Z erkin: Ohh
2019-10-17T20:20:32Z erkin: Have you seen BourneGol I linked in the post?
2019-10-17T20:20:57Z gwatt: Looking...
2019-10-17T20:22:16Z gwatt: well, that's insane
2019-10-17T20:22:19Z erkin: Haha
2019-10-17T20:22:22Z erkin: I know, right?
2019-10-17T20:22:39Z gwatt: The story about bourne shell just trapping SIGSEGV is also terrifying
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2019-10-17T20:51:25Z erkin: Updated version: https://0x0.st/zxdf.txt
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2019-10-17T20:52:02Z erkin: Thanks everyone for all your input!
2019-10-17T20:54:11Z la_zaifir: erkin: Looking forward to seeing the final product.
2019-10-17T20:54:22Z erkin: I'll make sure to share it here once I'm done. :-)
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2019-10-17T21:09:53Z jcowan: ER is definitely the most important non-syntax case system.  At present, Chicken, MIT, Scheme48, and Picrin have ER but not syntax-case.  I've asked the author of the Chibi syntax-case system (a library) to try to make it run on Chicken as well.
2019-10-17T21:13:45Z erkin: Yeah, I plan to talk about ER and IR under CHICKEN.
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2019-10-17T21:15:00Z erkin: Although I don't think I understand it well myself.
2019-10-17T21:15:12Z erkin: I need to read up more about it.
2019-10-17T21:15:21Z erkin: I remember CHICKEN's wiki having a good guide on it.
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2019-10-17T22:00:13Z Riastradh: erkin: Read Jonathan Rees's article in Lisp Pointers.  I think the title was `Implementing Lexically Scoped Macros' or something.
2019-10-17T22:07:45Z erkin: Riastradh: Excellent resource, thanks!
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2019-10-17T22:59:29Z jcowan: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Explicit-Renaming.html
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2019-10-19T11:07:23Z diemaco: I feel like I'm close to a solution here but I can't figure out how to code it properly: https://imgur.com/a/pwrH67Q ... and no that's not homework >_<
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2019-10-19T16:54:29Z amz3: o/
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2019-10-20T04:41:15Z lockywolf: Which SRFIs describe "modern scheme"?
2019-10-20T04:42:55Z lockywolf: I mean, it's a bit of a vague question, but I kind of roughly mean "the scheme not described in some classical textbook, such as SICP, or Seasoned Schemer, or TSPL".
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2019-10-20T05:10:58Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: I doubt there's any easy way to answer that.  There are plenty of SRFIs that are almost ubiquitous (1, 41, 69, etc.), but they're mostly ones that have been around for a while.
2019-10-20T05:11:20Z mdhughes: TSPL is pretty close, but the "modern scheme" I mostly use is Chicken, which isn't even that, it's R5RS + a ton of quasi-compatible libraries and eggs.
2019-10-20T05:11:52Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: Conversely, there are several very "modern" (in the sense of doing the Right Thing by modern world standards) SRFIs like 135 which are not yet widely implemented.
2019-10-20T05:12:22Z mdhughes: You just have to look at the implementation's library list, and hope they tell you which SRFIs match their libraries.
2019-10-20T05:13:07Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: Obviously, you also might say that the ones that get voted into R7RS-large will define modern Scheme.
2019-10-20T05:18:15Z bsima: what does the convention %some-thing mean? Is it like a constant?
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2019-10-20T05:22:43Z la_zaifir: % is often used in internal (i.e. unexported) names, but I'm not sure if that's the only convention.
2019-10-20T05:23:40Z bsima: ok thanks, i'm reading guile/guix code
2019-10-20T05:23:51Z lockywolf: I think chibi uses % for internal operations too.
2019-10-20T05:24:08Z lockywolf: What's the painful descussion about keyword arguments?
2019-10-20T05:24:17Z lockywolf: On the srfi mailing list.
2019-10-20T05:25:22Z lockywolf: Why is there a need in any special syntax at all to implement them?\
2019-10-20T05:26:04Z lockywolf: Why not just pass the last argument to a matching function.
2019-10-20T05:26:12Z lockywolf: ?
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2019-10-20T05:39:31Z jcowan: Efficiency and reliability concerns
2019-10-20T05:40:28Z jcowan: However a great many SRFIs, and almost all of those that are aready part of R7RS-large, have portable implementations.
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2019-10-20T05:57:08Z lockywolf: A parsing function seems quite portable.
2019-10-20T05:57:18Z lockywolf: Although maybe not fast.
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2019-10-20T05:57:48Z lockywolf: Sorry, maybe not portable. But reliable.
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2019-10-20T06:51:24Z lockywolf: In Matlab kwargs work like this: everything gets stuffed into rest, and then you can do p = inputParser(); p.addKWArg( 'kw', default-value, verification_function ); result = apply( p, rest );
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2019-10-20T08:35:35Z wasamasa: there isn't anything modern about scheme in the first place
2019-10-20T08:36:01Z wasamasa: you can port old code without much issues and the language hasn't changed enough for there to be obsoleted practices
2019-10-20T08:37:38Z wasamasa: it's just like in that one xkcd, it has a timeless aura from a different age
2019-10-20T08:59:26Z mdhughes: And mostly it's hacked up in Perl.
2019-10-20T09:01:00Z mdhughes: binary math in Scheme is such a pain in the ass I just punted and am using mutable strings for a bit-array. 8x as much memory use, but it's trivial.
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2019-10-20T09:11:07Z wasamasa: your implementation doesn't provide bitwise-xor and such?
2019-10-20T09:15:30Z mdhughes: It does, but doing a lot of masking and shifting to get 1-2 bit subfields is ugly and I can't ever be sure it's right.
2019-10-20T09:15:47Z wasamasa: it's the same as in C, lol
2019-10-20T09:17:06Z mdhughes: | & ! |= &= etc are a lot easier to express it in than lots of densely wrapped functions.
2019-10-20T09:17:32Z mdhughes: And C has unions, so I can just write to a field and then take the integer value.
2019-10-20T09:17:55Z wasamasa: consider writing a macro translating infix arithmetic
2019-10-20T09:20:14Z wasamasa: as for unions, ok, that's something uniquely unsafe to C
2019-10-20T09:21:13Z mdhughes: Or I could spend 1 minute turning it into a string and not worry about it. Worst-case it adds 92k to my data set.
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2019-10-20T09:28:44Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. Is there any free books and/or Scheme standard in epub/mobi format?
2019-10-20T09:32:59Z amz3: ArthurStrong: you can convert almost anythong to almost anything using the tool called 'pandoc'
2019-10-20T09:33:34Z amz3: ArthurStrong: take for instance SICP html that you can find on the web
2019-10-20T09:34:51Z amz3: ArthurStrong: checkout for a quick glimpse: https://github.com/a-guile-mind/book/#a-guile-mind-book
2019-10-20T09:36:12Z ArthurStrong: amz3: thanks for the idea
2019-10-20T09:37:16Z amz3: ArthurStrong: here is sicp in html format: https://github.com/sarabander/sicp
2019-10-20T09:40:11Z ArthurStrong: Did anyone had done this for r6rs htmls?
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2019-10-20T13:35:58Z jcowan: mdhughes: SRFI 151 is meant to solve that problem, being much more expressive than simple bitwise-and, -or, and -not.  It's portable, althogh it runs much faster if you use your implementation has native versions of the 7 core functions
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2019-10-20T13:39:54Z jcowan: namely bitwise-not, bitwise-and, bitwise-ior, bitwise-xor, arithmetic-shift, bit-count, integer-length
2019-10-20T13:43:08Z mdhughes: Those would definitely help!
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2019-10-20T14:53:18Z erkin: Has anyone made a table of which ratified SRFIs were implemented on which Schemes?
2019-10-20T14:55:15Z wasamasa: I'm sure jcowan did
2019-10-20T15:05:59Z erkin: There's this but it wasn't updated since January 2017 https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-implementers.html
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2019-10-20T15:27:32Z la_zaifir: erkin: jcowan pointed me to this when I asked a similar question last month: https://speechcode.com/growing-schemes.pdf
2019-10-20T15:29:47Z erkin: Neat, thanks
2019-10-20T15:30:20Z erkin: SRFI winter of 2007-2013
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2019-10-20T16:24:45Z dto: good morning schemers ;)
2019-10-20T16:29:13Z amz3: o/
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2019-10-20T16:51:41Z dto: how are you amz3 ?
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2019-10-20T16:54:11Z amz3: tired
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2019-10-20T16:54:59Z dto: hope you can get some rest.
2019-10-20T16:55:11Z dto: i'm also tired. my big birthday bash was last night
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2019-10-20T17:55:50Z erkin: Happy birthday, dto.
2019-10-20T17:55:56Z dto: hey thanks :0
2019-10-20T17:55:57Z dto: :)
2019-10-20T17:55:59Z dto: 41!
2019-10-20T17:56:10Z erkin: :0
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2019-10-20T18:13:53Z Riastradh: mdhughes:
2019-10-20T18:13:58Z Riastradh: (define (bit-mask size pos) (arithmetic-shift (bitwise-not (arithmetic-shift -1 size)) pos))
2019-10-20T18:14:04Z Riastradh: (define (bits n m) (define (%bits n m) (bit-mask (- (+ m 1) n) n)) (if (<= n m) (%bits n m) (%bits m n)))
2019-10-20T18:14:14Z Riastradh: (define (shiftout x mask) (arithmetic-shift (bitwise-and x mask) (- (first-set-bit mask))))
2019-10-20T18:14:16Z mdhughes: Read upthread for a better solution.
2019-10-20T18:14:26Z Riastradh: (define (shiftin x mask) (arithmetic-shift x (first-set-bit mask)))
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2019-10-20T18:15:16Z Riastradh: (shiftout #x1234 (bits 4 10))
2019-10-20T18:15:18Z Riastradh: ;Value: #x23
2019-10-20T18:16:39Z mdhughes: A for effort, but I'll just copy srfi-151 into my source tree, since it's not in Chicken yet.
2019-10-20T18:17:13Z Riastradh: (This is what we use in C for, e.g., device drivers: define a bunch of hardware register field positions as (bits n m), and then use shiftin/shiftout to assemble or pick apart register values.)
2019-10-20T18:18:18Z mdhughes: Though in C, once it gets past a couple fields, I use a union { struct { int foo: 1 ... } int flags; } and boom, compiler does the bitmasking for me.
2019-10-20T18:19:58Z Riastradh: Unions and bit fields aren't reliable for that.
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2019-10-20T18:20:27Z Riastradh: Would be nice if they were!  But they aren't.
2019-10-20T18:25:29Z mdhughes: They are. Obviously don't use "int" but uint32_t or whatever.
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2019-10-20T19:33:11Z dto: hi Riastradh and friends.
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2019-10-20T19:43:14Z la_zaifir: dto: o/ and happy birthday.
2019-10-20T19:45:06Z dto: hey thanks la_zaifir :)_
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2019-10-20T23:31:31Z dgtlcmo: are there any commercially supported scheme compilers?
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2019-10-20T23:33:16Z gwatt: Chez Scheme is owned by cisco
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2019-10-20T23:36:52Z dgtlcmo: I was interested because if I suggest Scheme with employers, I'm sure they will ask what are the support channels...
2019-10-20T23:37:32Z dgtlcmo: also, how can someone guarantee that the compiler / interpreter doesn't have back doors included in it?  especially if an older version is used to create a new version...?
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2019-10-20T23:38:11Z dgtlcmo: i'm trying to anticipate what an employer may ask if I want to use scheme for programming
2019-10-20T23:41:13Z gwatt: Hmm. I assume your employer is a large-ish and  established company?
2019-10-20T23:41:23Z dgtlcmo: Well, no employer now.
2019-10-20T23:41:51Z dgtlcmo: I would like to find an employer that supports Scheme or LISP as programming languages.
2019-10-20T23:42:24Z gwatt: Then I wouldn't worry about commercial support or the trusting trust problem.
2019-10-20T23:42:27Z dgtlcmo: gwatt: my old employer was a large-ish and established company, which could have done more for Java
2019-10-20T23:55:08Z pjb: dgtlcmo: Do they ask you what are the support channels for English when you use English in your work?
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2019-10-21T00:03:53Z aeth: dgtlcmo: Imo... If your employer cares, then you're probably not working for an employer that's a good fit for Scheme. The best "support channel" for an open source compiler or interpreter if it's a large organization is to hire a developer or someone who's able to become a developer for that implementation.
2019-10-21T00:04:20Z dgtlcmo: aeth: good point
2019-10-21T00:04:23Z aeth: Especially something like Scheme where the language is all about extensions and basically goes in the direction that the users take it.
2019-10-21T00:05:12Z dgtlcmo: pjb: personally i feel there is no good support channel for english, because the geometric meaning behind latin script is mostly unpublished, but this is another topic.
2019-10-21T00:05:47Z aeth: Some languages, like French, have official organizations, at least for a country's dialect. I suppose that they might have a "support channel".
2019-10-21T00:05:56Z dgtlcmo: i'm around the cambridge area so maybe there are still some remenants of companies like thinking machines around here
2019-10-21T00:06:12Z aeth: (Natural language organizations tend to push an overly conservative flavor of the language that doesn't use as many loan words as actual users of the language, though.)
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2019-10-21T00:07:13Z dgtlcmo: is anyone here getting paid to develop in scheme?
2019-10-21T00:07:29Z pjb: aeth: indeed, http://academie-francaise.fr to create new words, and internationnal standardization organization such as https://www.francophonie.org
2019-10-21T00:08:03Z pjb: There's even a support channel for French: http://academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue
2019-10-21T00:08:27Z aeth: Everyone knows, though, that true, authorative dialect of French is the Quebecois one.
2019-10-21T00:08:29Z dgtlcmo: pjb: this is off topic, but a-z in latin script may have a geometric vs phonetic meaning.  the geometric meaning seems to be unknown
2019-10-21T00:08:33Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_French
2019-10-21T00:08:39Z pjb: dgtlcmo: next time you're asked about support channels for scheme, tell your employer to switch to French!
2019-10-21T00:09:12Z dgtlcmo: pjb: sorry i don't get your point
2019-10-21T00:09:48Z pjb: dgtlcmo: English doesn't have support channel and official standadization and maintainers.  French has them.
2019-10-21T00:09:53Z aeth: Direct link to Quebec's body: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois_de_la_langue_fran%C3%A7aise
2019-10-21T00:10:04Z dgtlcmo: pjb: that's good!
2019-10-21T00:10:32Z dgtlcmo: pjb: yes and written laws in english are nice and ambiguous to whatever judge or jury seems to think that day.  crazy!
2019-10-21T00:10:49Z gwatt: pjb: those two issues (human communication vs computer programming) are entirely separate and you're being ridiculous trying to compare them.
2019-10-21T00:10:53Z dgtlcmo: or whatever dictionary is used... but us laws don't cite a dictionary either!
2019-10-21T00:11:08Z pjb: gwatt: they're not as separate as you think.
2019-10-21T00:11:23Z pjb: gwatt: eg. specifications are written in English.
2019-10-21T00:11:47Z dgtlcmo: i find the whole issue crazy, if french has a standards organization and cites it in the laws created then it's a better then english
2019-10-21T00:11:48Z aeth: The problem with English is the same as the problem with Spanish. The empire was too successful and now there are too many countries using the language with different dialects.
2019-10-21T00:12:02Z aeth: France doesn't really have that except for Quebec.
2019-10-21T00:12:25Z gwatt: and French Guiana
2019-10-21T00:12:36Z aeth: That's still part of France.
2019-10-21T00:13:08Z aeth: My point is, there can't be one English body or one Spanish body because there are too many indepenent countries with English or Spanish as their first language (not just a lingua franca like in some former French colonies)
2019-10-21T00:13:09Z gwatt: Oh, you're right. I thought it was a separate country.
2019-10-21T00:13:12Z pjb: aeth: no, that's not it.   There are 88 countries subscribing to the Organisation International de la Francophonie.
2019-10-21T00:13:37Z pjb: https://www.francophonie.org/-Qu-est-ce-que-la-Francophonie-72-.html
2019-10-21T00:14:01Z aeth: pjb: Off the top of my head, though, as far as essentially sole languages go, it's just France, half of Belgium, 1/3ish of Switzerland, most of Quebec and some neighboring parts of Canada, and Haiti. Maybe some minor islands.
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2019-10-21T00:14:29Z pjb: aeth: a lot more countries have French as (one of their) official language.
2019-10-21T00:14:41Z dgtlcmo: there really needs to be standard on the geometric meaning of A-Z a-z first.  Like is A the intersection of 3 lines, B snakes on a caducus , etc...
2019-10-21T00:14:43Z aeth: pjb: As a lingua franca, not as the sole language
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2019-10-21T00:15:27Z dgtlcmo: the character set of the script is used across many languages.  i think the implicit meaning may be different of each letter and possibly combinitorics on creating words for each language
2019-10-21T00:15:31Z aeth: Spanish is almost the entirety of the Americas south of the US excluding Brazil, most of the Carribean, and some small areas. English is more scattered, but it's still the main language of Ireland, (at least) two cities in South Africa, most of Canada, almost all of the USA, Australia, New Zealand, etc. As well as the lingua franca of India, which is very large.
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2019-10-21T00:16:00Z gwatt: aeth also the langauge of the skies and the Internet
2019-10-21T00:16:17Z aeth: Yes, English is basically the international business language. In Europe especially.
2019-10-21T00:17:25Z aeth: Oh, I left Singapore off of my list.
2019-10-21T00:18:02Z aeth: English basically has the problem Scheme has.
2019-10-21T00:21:17Z aeth: (Decentralization.)
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2019-10-21T00:41:02Z dgtlcmo: This is far off topic then finding a support channel to convince tech managers using Scheme will be ok.  I just want to mention to this conversation about language standardization.  Language today is very ambiguous because for one reason, there is no agreed upon geometric meaning for the script.  It's all phonetic... if you trace the Latin script backwards in time to Phonecian it looks very geometric.
2019-10-21T00:41:08Z dgtlcmo: Also, maybe the Egyptians ...
2019-10-21T00:41:10Z dgtlcmo: ... had their language better standardized by placing Axioms in the symbol itself.
2019-10-21T00:41:42Z dgtlcmo: Like the letter A I think the axiom is the intersection of 3 crossing lines.
2019-10-21T00:50:17Z jcowan: aeth: The English-speaking nations include Rightpondia and Begrudgeria in Europe, Leftpondia and Northicia (pronounced with four syllables) in America, Bharattia and Qasimia in South Asia, Sarfeffrica and Cecilia in Southern Africa, Scamfundia in West Africa, North and South Safaria in East Africa, and Downundria and Aotearoa in Oceania. Island nations include Lumpia off East Asia, Rafflia off South Asia, and Dreadlockia
2019-10-21T00:50:17Z jcowan: in the Caribbean.  Rightpondia may further be divided into the six sub-nations of Londonia, Eboracia, Stannia, Bagpipia, N'Iron, and Quaint.
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2019-10-21T00:58:06Z aeth: dgtlcmo: language changes over time each generation because there's an imperfect transmission of it from generation to generation (which isn't necessarily a bad thing... an unchanging language is a language that can't describe computing well)
2019-10-21T00:58:30Z aeth: (and the features that our brains don't have an easy time using eventually get deleted)
2019-10-21T01:02:01Z dgtlcmo: aeth: I actually prefer heiroglyphics were the implicit meaning or axiom is built into the symbol.
2019-10-21T01:02:27Z dgtlcmo: aeth: I wonder if Latin conformed better to the geometric meaning of the script.  Probably...
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2019-10-21T01:37:17Z aeth: Egyptian switched to an alphabet eventually... That's what eventually turned into Coptic.
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2019-10-21T02:00:00Z jcowan: Egyptian is *not* a symbolic code
2019-10-21T02:00:18Z jcowan: it's sound/meaning just like Chinese characters and Mayan glyphs
2019-10-21T02:00:24Z jcowan: if anything, more sound
2019-10-21T02:00:29Z jcowan: the meaning bits are optional
2019-10-21T02:02:41Z aeth: jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demotic_(Egyptian)
2019-10-21T02:04:29Z jcowan: Not sure what you're drawing my attention to in that article
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2019-10-21T02:09:58Z aeth: jcowan: that Egyptian isn't necessarily written with hieroglyphs
2019-10-21T02:11:07Z jcowan: Well, sure.  But Demotic script is almost just another font.
2019-10-21T02:12:12Z jcowan: of course Egyptian was changing all the time from the -33C to the 18C, though the scripts do conceal some of that.
2019-10-21T02:13:34Z jcowan: Chinese after all was written in a representation of -8C Chinese right up to 1911 or so.
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2019-10-21T05:10:55Z lockywolf__: In the r7rs standard document, the section 4.2.7 says that "That implicit cond expression is evaluated with the continuation and dynamic environment of the guard expression"
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2019-10-21T05:11:50Z lockywolf__: Does that mean that unless that thingy that (raise)d an exception cared to add a stack trace as an irritant, there is no way to find out where the actual exception was thrown?
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2019-10-21T12:32:59Z jcowan: lockywolf__: Correct
2019-10-21T12:33:26Z jcowan: Guard is just a thin layer over the real exception system, which is with-exception-handler
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2019-10-21T12:59:30Z lockywolf__: Wow, that's super not obvious.
2019-10-21T13:00:58Z lockywolf__: I thought that the only difference between guard and with-exception-handler is the implicit (cond)
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2019-10-21T13:35:03Z lockywolf__: But (with-exception-handler) cannot return a value by itself, right? So the right way to return a value is to run with call/cc ?
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2019-10-21T13:57:51Z lockywolf__: So implementing try-catch in Scheme requires (call/cc (lambda (x) (with-exception-handler (lambda (err) (continuation #f)) (continuation #t)))) ?
2019-10-21T13:59:15Z amz3: try/catch like in JS?
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2019-10-21T14:10:07Z jcowan: exactly, which is messy, which is why guard is provided
2019-10-21T14:10:37Z jcowan: These days non-continuable exceptions are pretty much confined to Lisps, but they are very powerful
2019-10-21T14:10:49Z jcowan: s/non-//
2019-10-21T14:11:08Z gwatt: lockywolf_: the main code path can return a value, the exception path will not.
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2019-10-21T14:19:09Z lockywolf_: Let me formulate it the following way: how do I continue the execution after catching an exception? (I don't use "continue" in any strict sense) Is there a way to terminate the exception handler without returning anything?
2019-10-21T14:19:44Z lockywolf_: (guard) does almost what I want, the only problem is not having access to the stack trace.
2019-10-21T14:21:39Z lockywolf_: I need to call (print-stack-trace) in the context of the function where I divide by zero, not the function where I cared to write a (guard)
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2019-10-21T14:23:53Z lockywolf_: The task is super typical: try to execure some shit, and when the shit crashes, produce as much feedback as possible.
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2019-10-21T14:25:09Z jcowan: Write a wrapper around raise that collects the stack trace in some implementation-dependent way and wraps it, the message, and the irritants in some object
2019-10-21T14:25:29Z jcowan: then have a utility function in guard clauses to extract it if present.
2019-10-21T14:26:05Z lockywolf_: Already did that
2019-10-21T14:27:26Z jcowan: "The general conclusion is that there shouldn't be any recognizable design pattern in a good [Lisp] program. The one and only pattern is: _use the language_ ..."
2019-10-21T14:27:32Z lockywolf_: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/pull/581
2019-10-21T14:27:41Z lockywolf_: But that's a bit messy and implementation-dependent.
2019-10-21T14:28:15Z jcowan: Inevitably so. As I pointed out a few days ago, what counts as a stack trace is also implementation-dependent.
2019-10-21T14:28:42Z jcowan: "report on some of the procedures that have been invoked more or less recently" is the best you can do in general
2019-10-21T14:29:34Z lockywolf_: Well, the code I am writing is not rocket-science.
2019-10-21T14:31:12Z lockywolf_: Well, recording the last few function calls doesn't seem like a hopeless task.
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2019-10-21T14:33:14Z lockywolf__: What happens if I (call/cc (k) something ), and this "something" never uses this k?
2019-10-21T14:34:06Z Riastradh: (call/cc (lambda (k) (f))) is equivalent to (f).
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2019-10-21T14:38:24Z lockywolf__: I doubt that Alex will accept the pull request. Also, it seems that the exception is created in the (guard) context any way.
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2019-10-21T14:41:57Z lockywolf__: Still, rewriting exception handling with (call/cc (lambda (k) (w-e-h (lambda (err) (k)) (lambda () code)))) seems to do the job.
2019-10-21T14:42:17Z lockywolf__: Although I don't envy the guy who may have to maintain this code.
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2019-10-21T14:44:48Z gwatt: Why not write a catch/recover macro that does that for you?
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2019-10-21T14:45:41Z lockywolf__: I doubt that a language can exist without patterns.
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2019-10-21T14:46:59Z lockywolf__: Most people in the daily life never go beyond safe patterns. "Hello? How do you do? I am fine, thank you, how do you do? Very well, thank you."
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2019-10-21T14:47:39Z gnomon silently hands lockywolf__ a single plum, floating in perfume, served in a man's hat
2019-10-21T14:48:31Z Riastradh: ...whose hat and did he consent to ruining it by soaking it in perfume
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2019-10-21T14:48:54Z gnomon stands in silence as these questions echo through the room
2019-10-21T14:49:08Z jcowan: lockywolf__: That's because human languages don't have syntax extension.  :-)
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2019-10-21T14:53:45Z lockywolf__: Well, they do ;). Those are called "formal languages". :)
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2019-10-21T14:55:48Z lockywolf__: Anyway, the stack-trace wrapped into a "call/cc w-e-h" has at least some of my deserialized functions, so I am quite happy so far.
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2019-10-21T15:00:08Z jcowan: lockywolf__: See https://www.mail-archive.com/r6rs-discuss@lists.r6rs.org/msg04199.html for what can happen with the abuse of syntax extension
2019-10-21T15:15:46Z lockywolf__: jcowan, well, the r7rs standard didn't escape some of that.
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2019-10-21T15:15:59Z jcowan: True!
2019-10-21T15:16:20Z jcowan: But it doesn't really extend the syntax of English (or if so only by accident), just its vocabulary
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2019-10-21T15:18:37Z lockywolf__: Digressing, I am not entirely sure that syntax and vocabulary of a natural language are separable.
2019-10-21T15:19:19Z lockywolf__: Although it is certainly fruitious to attempt to do so.
2019-10-21T15:20:26Z lockywolf__: Also, speaking of Prof. Simpleton, I would love to be able to read mathematics in a formal language.
2019-10-21T15:21:11Z lockywolf__: Most math papers are written worse than javascript.
2019-10-21T15:26:25Z Riastradh: I'm not sure rewriting every math paper in Coq would be an improvement.
2019-10-21T15:28:46Z lockywolf__: Well, I didn't say coq
2019-10-21T15:29:38Z lockywolf__: but even org-mode would be an improvement
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2019-10-21T16:06:23Z dto: ah, the sounds of Scheme. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Os7wlPcW/latest-tomfoolery.mp3
2019-10-21T16:06:37Z dto: a microtonal composition sequenced in Emacs and then rendered to sound in Scheme.
2019-10-21T16:06:42Z dto: work in progress of course
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2019-10-21T16:38:07Z dto: code for the curious: https://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el/blob/master/mosaic.scm#L2847     the first part just passes through parameters to the fm-violin, and then it's mixed with the output of waveshaping synth
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2019-10-21T18:19:25Z la_zaifir: dto: Wow, impressive work.
2019-10-21T18:23:21Z la_zaifir: dto: (The code and the music both.)
2019-10-21T18:23:29Z dto: hey thanks la_zaifir glad u enjoy!
2019-10-21T18:23:46Z dto: i can't take much credit for the sound itself, the FM violin and the spectra i used to augment it are included with Snd scheme
2019-10-21T18:23:47Z dto: how are you ?
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2019-10-21T18:26:54Z la_zaifir: Well, it sounds quite good.  How plausible would it be to work with just-intoned scales in your system?  It's an area of special interest to me.
2019-10-21T18:27:06Z la_zaifir: And, uh, I'm acceptable, I guess.
2019-10-21T18:31:30Z dto: well the emacs lisp side computes the pitches and the FM violin can receive any pitch in Hz
2019-10-21T18:31:33Z dto: so it's plausible
2019-10-21T18:31:50Z dto: have you heard Ben Johnston's "extended just intonation" string quartets?
2019-10-21T18:33:27Z la_zaifir: dto: Not yet, I've been meaning to check out his music.
2019-10-21T18:34:36Z la_zaifir: dto: Cool, and thanks.  I'll have to experiment with it.
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2019-10-21T18:37:04Z erkin: I've been looking for existing work in microtonal synthesisers myself.
2019-10-21T18:37:26Z erkin: I started writing one in Clojure, abusing Java's MIDI library.
2019-10-21T18:38:13Z wasamasa: java's midi library isn't half bad
2019-10-21T18:38:25Z la_zaifir: erkin: Yeah, MIDI is huge pain for that sort of thing.
2019-10-21T18:38:27Z wasamasa: I wrote a midi repl using it: https://github.com/wasamasa/waka/
2019-10-21T18:38:49Z erkin: Yeah, I need to attach a pitch bend message to each note to represent microtonal notes.e
2019-10-21T18:38:51Z erkin: notes.*
2019-10-21T18:38:56Z dto: erkin: hi.
2019-10-21T18:39:03Z erkin: hi
2019-10-21T18:42:26Z la_zaifir: erkin: Rather than wrangling with MIDI, you can compile to Csound.  But then Csound is fairly painful in its own way.
2019-10-21T18:42:49Z dto: erkin: have you looked into Snd? https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/snd.html
2019-10-21T18:42:59Z dto: it includes an audio scheme and tons of tools
2019-10-21T18:43:43Z erkin: I can abandon my Clojure project if I can find something that works well.
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2019-10-21T18:58:27Z dto: erkin: let me know if you want to try messing with my project: http://xelf.me/scheme-mosaic.html    might be some fun things to try with Snd.
2019-10-21T18:59:58Z erkin: I'll take a look in a while.
2019-10-21T19:03:10Z erkin: Here's the symbolic portion of my project, by the way: https://github.com/erkin/chelengk
2019-10-21T19:03:29Z erkin: It only has the necessary symbols and values — I haven't had the opportunity to integrate the MIDI portion into it.
2019-10-21T19:06:04Z dto: peeking
2019-10-21T19:06:39Z dto: ooh the music type sounds interesting too
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2019-10-21T19:30:28Z erkin: Is '((key . (value value)) (key . (value value))) clearer to read than '((key value value) (key value value))?
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2019-10-21T19:35:33Z la_zaifir: erkin: Not really, imho.
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2019-10-21T19:40:57Z la_zaifir: erkin: (bikeshed But you're right, retaining the . might make it more recognizable as an alist.)
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2019-10-21T20:15:44Z erkin: I think I'll keep it '(key value value) anyway.
2019-10-21T20:15:57Z erkin: cons form might be more confusing.
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2019-10-21T20:27:46Z erkin: Does any Scheme implement bimaps?
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2019-10-21T20:40:00Z erkin: I hacked my own. :-P
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2019-10-21T20:55:10Z bsima: is anyone aware of an edn implementation in scheme?
2019-10-21T20:55:40Z wasamasa: I bet the efforts to implement clojure in scheme have it
2019-10-21T20:56:02Z bsima: oh? I'm not aware of these efforts
2019-10-21T20:56:31Z wasamasa: there's at least two of them
2019-10-21T20:57:18Z bsima: ok i'll look for them
2019-10-21T20:57:19Z wasamasa: https://gitlab.com/cloje/cloje
2019-10-21T20:57:29Z bsima: there doesn't even seem to be edn for racket :(
2019-10-21T20:57:58Z wasamasa: https://bitbucket.org/DerGuteMoritz/edn/src/master/
2019-10-21T20:58:53Z bsima: oh wow, nice find
2019-10-21T20:59:19Z wasamasa: I wanted to find his clojure implementation instead
2019-10-21T20:59:21Z wasamasa: oh well
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2019-10-21T21:01:05Z wasamasa: ah, here it is: https://bitbucket.org/DerGuteMoritz/chicken-clojure/src/master/
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2019-10-21T21:52:31Z erkin: dto: So, how do I start out with SchemeMosaic? Do I need to get S7?
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2019-10-22T02:09:41Z lockywolf_: What's the difference between SICP 2.89 and SICP 2.90?
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2019-10-22T03:05:53Z dto: erkin: sorry I missed your message. Will answer in the morning
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2019-10-22T04:34:41Z lockywolf_: jcowan, on https://small.r7rs.org, the links "Scheme Systems Supporting SRFIs" and "Small Scheme Standard Modules" don't work
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2019-10-22T10:37:03Z DKordic: jcowan: [define (Recursive be) [let [it (be it)] it]]
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2019-10-22T10:41:18Z pjb: DKordic: wrong.  A recursive procedure needs a base case!
2019-10-22T10:42:13Z pjb: DKordic: also, let takes a list of bindings, so this doesn't do what you want anyways.
2019-10-22T10:42:48Z pjb: (if it did anything, which it cannot because there's a reference to an undefined variable named it.
2019-10-22T10:42:49Z pjb: )
2019-10-22T10:43:18Z DKordic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-point_combinator is not recursive?!
2019-10-22T10:43:51Z pjb: Web pages are not recursive, in general.
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2019-10-22T12:08:22Z mdhughes: (define (to x y) (printf "to ~A is to ~A.\n" x y) (to y x) )  (to 'do 'be)
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2019-10-22T12:18:36Z dto: erkin: i am writing up a brief HOWTO get started.
2019-10-22T12:20:01Z dto: erkin: unfortunately there seems to be a bug with the newest Snd (19.8) which I haven't fixed yet, so i recommend installing 19.7, ftp://ccrma-ftp.stanford.edu/pub/Lisp/snd-19.7.tar.gz
2019-10-22T12:20:31Z dto: erkin: i configure it this way: ./configure --with-gtk --with-pulseaudio --with-ladspa --with-s7 --with-editres
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2019-10-23T01:41:26Z lockywolf: Is anyone here familiar with Chibi's engine?
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2019-10-23T01:42:29Z lockywolf: Also, why is there no predicate (symbol<? symbol-1 symbol-2) ?
2019-10-23T01:43:20Z lockywolf: The actual ordering of the symbols wouldn't be important to me, but the easiest way is to just compare them as strings.
2019-10-23T01:44:23Z shachaf: Comparing symbols as strings sounds like a pretty niche operation.
2019-10-23T01:44:35Z shachaf: I mean, doing it implicitly like that.
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2019-10-23T02:09:24Z erkin: You can implement it yourself with symbol->string and string comparison operations.
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2019-10-23T02:24:29Z lockywolf_: erkin, just did that.
2019-10-23T02:25:46Z lockywolf_: But I woudn't mind a standard name.
2019-10-23T02:27:46Z erkin: It's a very Erlangy thing to do. :-P
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2019-10-23T02:34:28Z lockywolf_: erkin, wanting a standard name?
2019-10-23T02:35:10Z erkin: Comparing symbols like that.
2019-10-23T02:35:38Z erkin: You can compare the order of any value in Erlang, and that's touted as a design decision.
2019-10-23T02:36:17Z erkin: number < atom < reference < fun < port < pid < tuple < map < nil < list < bit string
2019-10-23T02:36:46Z erkin: (atom = symbol)
2019-10-23T02:36:51Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: As shachaf says, it doesn't seem generally useful enough to warrant a standard definition, especially since symbol< is basically a one-liner.
2019-10-23T02:37:08Z lockywolf_: I would greatly appreciate if someone could look at my pull-request to chibi (https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/pull/581), because when I tried to add stack traces to exceptions, I seem to have missed something at memory management.
2019-10-23T02:37:52Z lockywolf_: la_zaifir, well, having one-liners scattered all over my code is not what I like
2019-10-23T02:37:59Z lockywolf_: but that's just me
2019-10-23T02:38:17Z erkin: It's the Lisp hacker's disease.
2019-10-23T02:38:32Z lockywolf_: recently had a fierce flame war with C programmers asking for an idiomatic way to append a symbol to a string
2019-10-23T02:38:39Z erkin: "I'll just hack together something and shove it in a preamble file"
2019-10-23T02:38:53Z lockywolf_: crap, I meant, a "character" to a string
2019-10-23T02:39:47Z lockywolf_: even what is a character is not very well defined nowadays
2019-10-23T02:41:05Z lockywolf_: so now my chibi crashes non-deterministically
2019-10-23T02:41:44Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: Was that on ##c perchance?
2019-10-23T02:41:57Z lockywolf_: no, on ##programming
2019-10-23T02:42:57Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: Hah, OK.  Many C discussions do seem to get lost in debate on how the C standard defines ... anything.
2019-10-23T02:43:33Z erkin: Honestly, with C, it's safer to take the Haskell approach: The language isn't what the standard describes, it's what the compiler compiles.
2019-10-23T02:43:49Z erkin: Haskell standard might as well be GHC itself.
2019-10-23T02:43:53Z la_zaifir: erkin: Ugh.
2019-10-23T02:44:13Z la_zaifir: erkin: Which really sucks, since Haskell has a pretty good standard.
2019-10-23T02:44:51Z lockywolf_: erkin, I couldn't disagree more
2019-10-23T02:45:04Z lockywolf_: C compilers compile a lot of shit
2019-10-23T02:45:13Z erkin: And that's what I'd consider C to be. :-)
2019-10-23T02:45:30Z la_zaifir: rudybot: Zing!
2019-10-23T02:45:30Z rudybot: la_zaifir: zing!
2019-10-23T02:45:48Z lockywolf_: But I was not even asking about a "standard way". I was asking about an "idiomatic way".
2019-10-23T02:46:40Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: realloc(), strcpy(), set the final two indices, I suppose.
2019-10-23T02:46:55Z lockywolf_: sprintf( "%s%c", string_value, char_value ), I think
2019-10-23T02:47:44Z lockywolf_: but that's also broken because not all characters can fit even into a wchar.
2019-10-23T02:48:07Z la_zaifir: Err, I'm always worried about doing string manipulation with -f functions in C.
2019-10-23T02:48:35Z lockywolf_: la_zaifir, you're right
2019-10-23T02:49:03Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: For instance, https://gms.tf/on-sprintf-fails.html
2019-10-23T02:49:04Z lockywolf_: but strcpy is no better
2019-10-23T02:49:07Z erkin: Considering C has no native concept of characters, I'd use a lightweight Unicode string manipulation library if I were in your place.
2019-10-23T02:49:16Z lockywolf_: erkin, indeed
2019-10-23T02:49:46Z lockywolf_: but chibi is expected to get compiled on plan9, so I am limited to the choice of libraries working on plan9
2019-10-23T02:50:18Z erkin: That, ironically, makes things easier.
2019-10-23T02:50:22Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: You can always use strncpy() or strlcpy() (OBSD), assuming you check everything.
2019-10-23T02:50:47Z lockywolf_: I am happy to check everything! Just what is everything...
2019-10-23T02:50:50Z la_zaifir: But, anyway, back to Scheme.
2019-10-23T02:50:56Z erkin: Plan 9 is very insistent on proper UTF-8 everywhere and their implementation is decently documented.
2019-10-23T02:51:30Z jcowan: C programmers do program in C99 or C11 or whatever.  Nobody programs in Haskell 98.
2019-10-23T02:51:39Z lockywolf_: strncpy is not cool, because it doesn't enforce limits on _to where_ you are copying, only _from where_ you are copying
2019-10-23T02:51:54Z erkin: Yeah maybe the Haskell comparison was a bit too extreme.
2019-10-23T02:52:27Z lockywolf_: jcowan, I sent you a message about broken links on small.r7rs.org
2019-10-23T02:52:42Z jcowan: I saw, but it needs to go to Art Gleckler, who maintains it.
2019-10-23T02:52:48Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: What?  strncpy enforces the n characters limit.  It just doesn't ensure that the dest string is null-terminated.
2019-10-23T02:53:09Z jcowan: I just had one of those days when you work like a dog and accomplish ZERO, literally -- I had to roll back everything I did.
2019-10-23T02:53:13Z lockywolf_: la_zaifir, it doesn't ensure that those n characters fit into the destination buffer
2019-10-23T02:53:21Z erkin: lockywolf_: Have you taken a look at Plan 9's concept of "runes"?
2019-10-23T02:53:45Z lockywolf_: erkin, well, I don't want to have anything plan9-specific...
2019-10-23T02:53:46Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: True.
2019-10-23T02:53:54Z erkin: They try to dissociate the data structure from the concept of the textual glyph.
2019-10-23T02:54:50Z lockywolf_: la_zaifir, I'd want a function strnmcat, which copies no more than n bytes, and the resulting string is no more than m bytes
2019-10-23T02:55:07Z lockywolf_: erkin, they are right, is some sense
2019-10-23T02:55:53Z erkin: Absolutely
2019-10-23T02:56:17Z lockywolf_: Although, frankly, multi-byte encodings should just die, and we should all forget this everlasting pain forever.
2019-10-23T02:56:48Z lockywolf_: 8 bit is enough
2019-10-23T02:56:52Z la_zaifir: wat
2019-10-23T02:56:53Z erkin: Aaand there goes 90% of world languages.
2019-10-23T02:57:03Z lockywolf_: erkin, and for the good
2019-10-23T02:57:15Z lockywolf_: well, no, just 90% of the writing systems
2019-10-23T02:57:16Z la_zaifir: Let them eat cake, er, ASCII.
2019-10-23T02:57:27Z erkin: Except you can't represent all sounds in a lot of languages in ASCII.
2019-10-23T02:57:36Z lockywolf_: sure you can
2019-10-23T02:57:48Z lockywolf_: you can represent all sounds in just {1,0}
2019-10-23T02:57:55Z lockywolf_: you can represent all sounds in just {1,0}^n
2019-10-23T02:58:18Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: Surely you can't be serious. :)
2019-10-23T02:58:51Z erkin: I'd like to see an attempt to represent a language like !Xõo or at least even Kabardian in ASCII alone. Bonus points if you don't use tetragraphs.
2019-10-23T02:59:02Z lockywolf_: well, I'm not serious about {1,0}
2019-10-23T03:00:13Z lockywolf_: (base25enc "Kabardian")
2019-10-23T03:01:04Z erkin: Here's the first paragraph of the Article 1 of Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Kabardian (using Latin alphabet) Clyxu psori ščx’èxuitu, ja ščlyx’ymrè ja xuèfaščèхèmrèklè zèxuèdèu k”al”xur. Ak”ylrè zèхèščlykl g”uazèrè jaIèšči, zyr zym zèk”uèš zèхaščІè jaкu dèl”u zèxuščytyn xuejхèšč.
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2019-10-23T03:01:42Z lockywolf_: Then it's super easy.
2019-10-23T03:02:31Z lockywolf_: They seem to only have no more than on diacritic mark per symbol, so just enumerate them all.
2019-10-23T03:02:38Z erkin: what
2019-10-23T03:03:01Z lockywolf_: Like they do in numerip pinyin.
2019-10-23T03:03:05Z lockywolf_: *numeric
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2019-10-23T03:04:43Z erkin: Do !Xõo next: ǃnˤù.ṵìàǁʼà-beǃù.mʘàasâa ǃqháa̰kūǂnûmǁɢˤûlitêǀèdtxóʔluǀnàe ʼásˤàa̰
2019-10-23T03:07:09Z lockywolf_: I still don't see much of a difference beyond applying a huffman code of some sort to the funny characters
2019-10-23T03:07:10Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: Why force every linguistic community on the planet to come up with an ASCII encoding, when ASCII itself was an Anglocentric mistake?
2019-10-23T03:07:25Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: We can, and have, fixed that mistake.
2019-10-23T03:07:40Z lockywolf_: ASCII doesn't matter. It could be EBCDIC, or VISCII, or whatever.
2019-10-23T03:08:06Z erkin: Up next was Sḵwx̱wú7mesh language :-P
2019-10-23T03:08:14Z lockywolf_: The big mistake is to have more than language on the planet
2019-10-23T03:08:19Z lockywolf_: Not ASCII
2019-10-23T03:08:22Z erkin: An Esperanto fanatic, I take it?
2019-10-23T03:09:10Z lockywolf_: I speak English, Russian and Chinese, when I would prefer to speak English, Scheme and Mathematics
2019-10-23T03:09:28Z la_zaifir: Mathematics especially sucks in ASCII.
2019-10-23T03:09:59Z lockywolf_: the original \tex is 7-bit
2019-10-23T03:10:14Z erkin: The last time we were stuck with single-byte encodings, every single country invented their own incompatible encoding set that led to a lot of fuckups.
2019-10-23T03:10:14Z lockywolf_: which actually was a mistake
2019-10-23T03:10:31Z erkin: Including countries that had almost completely overlapping orthographies.
2019-10-23T03:11:17Z lockywolf_: erkin, I remember the time when Counter-Strike 1.4 didn't support anything beyond ASCII, and gamers all over Europe could play on the same servers
2019-10-23T03:11:41Z lockywolf_: whereas now we have a server per country
2019-10-23T03:11:49Z lockywolf_: the languages divide and alienate
2019-10-23T03:12:00Z erkin: Truly tragic.
2019-10-23T03:12:15Z erkin: Why English, by the way? Why not Uzbek or Guarani or Kikuyu?
2019-10-23T03:12:25Z lockywolf_: I don't care which one.
2019-10-23T03:12:50Z lockywolf_: Preferably scheme
2019-10-23T03:12:59Z lockywolf_: but Uzbek is fine
2019-10-23T03:13:03Z erkin: Who's going to pick which one then? My vote is for the Kwakwa̱ka̱ʼwakw language.
2019-10-23T03:13:08Z lockywolf_: as long as it is written in ascii
2019-10-23T03:13:34Z erkin: We can make our own single-byte encoding for Kwakwa̱ka̱ʼwakw and replace the entire world infrastructure with that.
2019-10-23T03:13:52Z lockywolf_: well, we already have ascii infractructure
2019-10-23T03:14:07Z lockywolf_: let's encode Kwakwa̱ka̱ʼwakw in ascii, and I am ready to learn it
2019-10-23T03:14:07Z erkin: But English sucks and ASCII can't even represent all English words.
2019-10-23T03:14:30Z lockywolf_: but who cares about English? we already chose Kwakwa̱ka̱ʼwakw
2019-10-23T03:14:34Z erkin: Good point.
2019-10-23T03:14:40Z la_zaifir: This is like the world-domination plot of some B-movie Bond knockoff.
2019-10-23T03:14:44Z erkin: ahaha
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2019-10-23T03:16:16Z la_zaifir: "You expect me to write qʼaqʼajˀəm using an 8-bit encoding?"  "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die."
2019-10-23T03:17:09Z lockywolf_: so far I just want my stack-trace implementation in chibi to not crash
2019-10-23T03:17:46Z erkin: A more reasonable goal.
2019-10-23T03:18:53Z lockywolf_: maybe a bit later I want a single font file which would have images for all of unicode
2019-10-23T03:23:43Z erkin: Not all of Unicode is meant to be printable though.
2019-10-23T03:23:58Z erkin: Some characters are purely functional.
2019-10-23T03:25:16Z lockywolf_: their amount is not big
2019-10-23T03:25:38Z lockywolf_: and if they appear in the output by accident, I want them to be easily spotted
2019-10-23T03:25:48Z la_zaifir: Not so, if you intend to deal with combining characters at all.
2019-10-23T03:26:26Z lockywolf_: well, if they are combining, they should combine
2019-10-23T03:26:37Z erkin: That's what they do!
2019-10-23T03:27:00Z lockywolf_: well, then the definition of "printable" should be revised
2019-10-23T03:28:08Z erkin: Combining characters aren't the nonprintable ones.
2019-10-23T03:28:17Z lockywolf_: if they have a legitimate appearance in the output, I call them "printable"
2019-10-23T03:28:23Z lockywolf_: but that's just me
2019-10-23T03:28:33Z erkin: Think of zero-width space, nonbreaking space, zero-width joiner, right-to-left marker
2019-10-23T03:29:38Z erkin: ASCII has plenty of them too. NUL isn't meant to be printed. :-)
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2019-10-23T03:31:33Z erkin: Fun fact: Unicode has codepoints for *printable representations* of unprintable characters.
2019-10-23T03:32:07Z erkin: Tired of ^@ and \0? Why not try ␀?
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2019-10-23T03:42:10Z la_zaifir: :-)
2019-10-23T03:42:48Z Riastradh: jcowan: I sometimes program in Haskell 98.
2019-10-23T03:43:08Z Riastradh: I will admit to a VERY MODEST extension: multiparameter type classes and functional dependencies.
2019-10-23T03:54:18Z lockywolf_: erkin, I know that. And I also know that fighting with corner-cases can be fun.
2019-10-23T03:55:00Z lockywolf_: But that's not the main point of the "big font".
2019-10-23T03:55:30Z lockywolf_: The "closure property" so much praised in SICP is a very rare event actually.
2019-10-23T03:55:37Z lockywolf_: CPUs make mistakes.
2019-10-23T03:55:44Z lockywolf_: _even_ CPUs make mistakes
2019-10-23T03:57:10Z lockywolf_: Still, having good tools is useful, even if they don't cover everything.
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2019-10-23T05:01:20Z nisstyre: Riastradh: overloadedstrings is a very necessary one imo
2019-10-23T05:01:36Z nisstyre: because of the ridiculous number of string types
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2019-10-23T08:21:33Z amz3: ecraven: I would very gladly rely on let-optional for SRFI-167 / SRFI-168.
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2019-10-23T16:21:15Z dieggsy: can i get an opinion? do you guys think srfi-105's $nfx$ for dealing with mixed infix operators is best implemented as syntax or as a procedure? i can do operator precedence with either, it just comes down to checking with symbol or procedure equality.  the srfi in quesstion: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-105/srfi-105.html
2019-10-23T16:23:13Z dieggsy: it feels like maybe syntax is better simply for customization? like, it's easier to understand some user-configurable operator precedence parameter that's e.g. '(expt * / + - ...) over '(#<procedure expt> #<procedure *> ...)
2019-10-23T16:23:36Z jcowan: Make sure you set it up to allow equal priority
2019-10-23T16:23:48Z jcowan: and do something about associativity too: right assoc, left assoc, nonassoc.
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2019-10-23T16:24:44Z dieggsy: jcowan: ...i think both of those went over my head, mind elaborating?
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2019-10-23T16:25:16Z jcowan: - is left associative: that is (- 1 2 3) is (- (- 1 2) 3))
2019-10-23T16:25:17Z dieggsy: oh - atm i think i'm grouping * / with the same priority, for example, if that's what you meant
2019-10-23T16:25:24Z jcowan: right
2019-10-23T16:25:42Z jcowan: expt is right associative: that is (expt 2 10 2) is (expt 2 (expt 10 2))
2019-10-23T16:25:45Z dieggsy: oh, i see
2019-10-23T16:26:29Z la_zaifir: dieggsy: Take a look at how Guile and Sagittarius implement it, perhaps.  AFAICT they're the only Schemes that do.
2019-10-23T16:26:32Z jcowan: < is not associative: (< a b c) is just (< a b c), which is not the same as (< (< a b) c))
2019-10-23T16:27:28Z dieggsy: la_zaifir: i took a look at guile, but it seems to implement it in C
2019-10-23T16:27:59Z dieggsy: jcowan: i hadn't even thought about associativity... but thinking about how to implement < > etc. has been givingg me a hard time since they're not operators in the same sense as mathematical ones
2019-10-23T16:28:49Z dieggsy: by default, srfi-105 does {1 > 2 > 3} -> (> 1 2 3), but then how to deal with {1 > 2 <= 3}.. they can't be simply chained because then you compare a number with a boolean
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2019-10-23T16:31:24Z la_zaifir: dieggsy: The SRFI explictly recommends changing the reader and _not_ trying to implement it as a macro.  c.f. "Design Rationale"
2019-10-23T16:32:59Z dieggsy: la_zaifir: that's for the core 'curly brace' functionality, not necessarily for $nfx$ (mixed operators) as far as I can tell
2019-10-23T16:33:20Z la_zaifir: dieggsy: Hmm, I see.
2019-10-23T16:33:50Z dieggsy: I've modified the chicken scheme reader to get the core functionality working and am now thinking about how best to handle the $nfx$ expansion
2019-10-23T16:34:54Z dieggsy: see here: "Instead, where precedence is desired, application and library writers can implement precedence by defining and controlling the scope of an “$nfx$” macro or procedure, or by later postprocessing of that symbol."
2019-10-23T16:35:15Z vyzo: just an announcement
2019-10-23T16:35:30Z vyzo: as of now, Gerbil master include all R7RS Tangerine edition libraries
2019-10-23T16:35:37Z vyzo: happy hacking!
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2019-10-23T16:36:39Z amz3: \o/
2019-10-23T16:37:08Z la_zaifir: Wow, awesome.
2019-10-23T16:37:23Z pjb: { … ai opi ai+1 … } = (and … (opi ai ai+1) …)
2019-10-23T16:37:43Z dieggsy: yeah that's super neat
2019-10-23T16:39:03Z dieggsy: pjb: yeah, i guess that'd be the way, with comparison operators having a very low priority so that all the other math is done before getting to them
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2019-10-23T16:50:52Z dieggsy: hmm. actually, srfi-105's base implementation is a bit weird. i'm not sure i like the default of grouping same operators into a single call, since this leads to an error with {2 expt 10 expt 2} for example. it's meant to be simple though, i guess
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2019-10-23T17:47:26Z dieggsy: huh, i think it has to be syntax if i'm to handle boolean operators like and
2019-10-23T17:52:22Z la_zaifir: Personally, I would avoid infix `and' and `or' like the plague since they aren't really operators.
2019-10-23T17:53:16Z la_zaifir: (do-something $or$ (error 'bad-stuff))  Woo, sh style!
2019-10-23T17:55:00Z dieggsy: wait, what
2019-10-23T17:56:13Z dieggsy: well, ($nfx$ do-something or (error 'bad-stuff)) wouuld expand to (or do-something (error 'bad-stuff))
2019-10-23T17:56:13Z la_zaifir: That would be equivalent to (or do-something (error 'bad-stuff)), no?
2019-10-23T17:56:52Z la_zaifir: Ah, right, I confused the syntax.  `or' just appears as usual.
2019-10-23T17:57:23Z dieggsy: well, for the user, it  would just be
2019-10-23T17:57:32Z dieggsy: {do-something or (error 'bad-stuff)}
2019-10-23T17:57:58Z la_zaifir: Right.
2019-10-23T17:58:27Z dieggsy: infix really sucks, huh?
2019-10-23T17:58:51Z dieggsy: ...i still kind want this srfi available for chicken though, because... i hate myself? heh
2019-10-23T18:02:56Z la_zaifir: "In his heart he begins to understand--the quest will claim his life."
2019-10-23T18:03:21Z la_zaifir: I guess there's a reason SRFI 105 isn't broadly implemented.
2019-10-23T18:04:00Z dieggsy: jajaja
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2019-10-23T18:05:28Z dieggsy: i'm way used to (and even  dare i say prefer?) prefix notation, so at this point it really is just about the journy
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2019-10-23T20:15:04Z amz3: very long read with suprising title: https://scheme-lang.com/Screenshot_2019-10-23%20Continuations,%20coroutines,%20fibers,%20effects.png
2019-10-23T20:15:09Z amz3: #webdev #frontend
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2019-10-23T22:55:11Z ArthurStrong: Hi all. When do you use cons lists with inner links? For circular lists? Graphs?
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2019-10-23T23:04:17Z pjb: Yes.
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2019-10-24T03:42:07Z lockywolf__: Show-fort has problems?
2019-10-24T03:42:22Z lockywolf__: http://snow-fort.org/pkg is not responding
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2019-10-24T03:57:33Z pjb: lockywolf__: perhaps http://show-fort.org/pkg would respond?
2019-10-24T04:01:49Z lockywolf__: what?
2019-10-24T04:02:52Z lockywolf__: I do have a typo, but in the first message, not the second. The URL is correct
2019-10-24T04:07:32Z pjb: ok
2019-10-24T04:07:43Z pjb: but you see what typoes do!
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2019-10-24T04:24:48Z lockywolf__: ok
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2019-10-24T07:08:34Z amz3: any feedback on predicate based single dispatch?
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2019-10-24T13:02:20Z jcowan: I'd like to hear that feedback too.
2019-10-24T13:03:15Z jcowan: I am (tentatively, of course) convinced that predicate-based generic functions are the Right Thing for Scheme, when we arm predicates with a notion of subsumption.
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2019-10-24T13:17:01Z amz3: what does "to arm predicates with a notion of subsumption"?
2019-10-24T13:17:10Z amz3: is it something like single inheritance.
2019-10-24T13:19:03Z amz3: I know subsumption in the context of feature structures where given a structure A [type dog] and a structure [color black]. The subsumption binary operation will output [type dog][color black]
2019-10-24T13:19:07Z amz3: but
2019-10-24T13:19:49Z amz3: if structure A subsumption B have a contradictory pair it will error (or something)
2019-10-24T13:20:53Z amz3: it looks like an association list, but two pairs can not have the same key.
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2019-10-24T13:21:49Z amz3: well the wiki does not explain it : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_structure
2019-10-24T13:24:21Z amz3: sorry, I mixed definitions. subsumption is when association list have the same keys but not necessarly in the same order
2019-10-24T13:24:32Z amz3: what I explained is unification in feature structure.
2019-10-24T13:24:35Z amz3: see http://cs.union.edu/~striegnk/courses/nlp-with-prolog/html/node82.html#l11.sec.subsumption
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2019-10-24T13:34:57Z vyzo: r7rs doesn't even have inheritance for records, subsumption is only good for things like numbers
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2019-10-24T15:37:29Z Riastradh: jcowan: Scheme48 has done this for aaaaages.  MIT Scheme has a thing now too.
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2019-10-24T15:45:11Z jcowan: In predicates, foo subsumes bar if, for every object of which bar is true, foo is also true.  It can't in general be deduced by the system, because Turing complete, so it has to be declarable.
2019-10-24T15:45:29Z jcowan: Fortunately it's a constant for any two predicates, as opposed to their names.
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2019-10-24T15:46:21Z jcowan: or rather, because halting problem
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2019-10-24T16:09:13Z amz3: ok
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2019-10-24T17:38:34Z amz3: re p2p: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC
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2019-10-25T05:03:58Z lockywolf_: Are there lisp systems which allow ('(lambda (x) (display x)) "hello")?
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2019-10-25T05:07:01Z ggole: Emacs lisp, with the caveat that it is a Lisp-2 and won't evaluate the expression in function position
2019-10-25T05:07:16Z ggole: (That is, you'd need (funcall '(lambda (x) (print x)) "hello"))
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2019-10-25T05:40:23Z pjb: lockywolf: ('(lambda (x) (display x)) "hello") is read as ((quote (lambda (x) (display x))) "hello")  What semantics would you assign to that?
2019-10-25T05:54:43Z erkin: lockywolf: Picolisp, but it's because it has no concept of lambda.
2019-10-25T05:55:10Z erkin: ('((n) (* n n)) 5) -> 25
2019-10-25T05:59:40Z la_zaifir: Auto-evaling a list appearing in the car of a list would be a terrifying feature.
2019-10-25T06:02:37Z erkin: If we're already evaling the atom at the car of a list, why not do the same with another list? :-)
2019-10-25T06:03:41Z lockywolf: la_zaifir, terrifying or terrific?
2019-10-25T06:03:55Z erkin: Quote in Picolisp quotes all its arguments, and lists function as lambdas when evaluated.
2019-10-25T06:04:15Z lockywolf: erkin, cool thing
2019-10-25T06:04:25Z la_zaifir: erkin: In what Scheme does ('* x y) work?
2019-10-25T06:04:40Z erkin: Oh you mean like that.
2019-10-25T06:05:09Z la_zaifir: erkin: Right, because we're talking about evaling a quoted list: ('(lambda (x) (display x)) "hello")
2019-10-25T06:06:04Z erkin: Yeah but if it weren't quoted (and lambda were to be treated like a token), it wouldn't function as a lambda, as the tokens would get evaluated.
2019-10-25T06:06:26Z erkin: ie ((list lambda (x) (display (x)) "hello")
2019-10-25T06:06:34Z lockywolf: If you insist:
2019-10-25T06:06:34Z lockywolf: (begin ('(lambda (x) (display x)) "hello") (a "hello"))
2019-10-25T06:06:41Z lockywolf: sorry
2019-10-25T06:07:04Z lockywolf: (begin (define a (list 'lambda (list 'x) (list 'display 'x))) (a "hello"))
2019-10-25T06:07:24Z erkin: (list 'a) is already identical to '(a)
2019-10-25T06:07:55Z la_zaifir: Except when mutation is involved.
2019-10-25T06:09:04Z lockywolf: On Chibi I get: ERROR in call-with-values on line 280 of file /usr/lib64/chibi/init-7.scm: non procedure application: (lambda (x) (display x))
2019-10-25T06:09:33Z erkin: That's because it's a list, not a procedure.
2019-10-25T06:10:28Z lockywolf: True, but I is there any semantic difference between a procedure and a list starting with lambda?
2019-10-25T06:10:43Z erkin: In Scheme, yes.
2019-10-25T06:10:54Z erkin: lambda is a sui generis special form.
2019-10-25T06:11:10Z erkin: As I mentioned above, Picolisp treats them the same way.
2019-10-25T06:11:14Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: What's wrong with (let ((a '(lambda (x) (display x)))) (eval `(,a "hello"))) ?
2019-10-25T06:11:37Z la_zaifir: (Or (eval `(,a "hello") <env>) in R7)
2019-10-25T06:12:38Z ggole: The original LISP (and maybe 1.5) had that 'feature' as well
2019-10-25T06:13:40Z ggole: It doesn't really play nice with lexical scope unless the function is closed.
2019-10-25T06:13:51Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: I think you're misunderstanding quote.
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2019-10-25T06:19:29Z lockywolf: Well, am I the only one who thinks that it's cool to have procedures be lists and lists be procedures?
2019-10-25T06:20:15Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: Paul Graham seems to agree with you.
2019-10-25T06:21:13Z lockywolf: (car procedure-name) would be 'lambda, and (cadr procedure-name) would be the variable list
2019-10-25T06:21:35Z erkin: Why treat lambda as a symbol specially then?
2019-10-25T06:21:48Z erkin: If it could be any list?
2019-10-25T06:22:07Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: What if you want a list beginning with 'lambda to not be treated as a procedure?
2019-10-25T06:24:28Z ggole: Cons cells allow too many operations for them to be a clean representation for procedures.
2019-10-25T06:24:53Z lockywolf: erkin, you mean, any list whose first cell is another list? (for the variables)?
2019-10-25T06:25:09Z ggole: Mutation and structural equality in particular.
2019-10-25T06:25:13Z erkin: As in, why wouldn't any list be able to be a procedure then?
2019-10-25T06:25:27Z la_zaifir: It really seems like it would create madness with trying to ensure that lists and procedures didn't overlap.
2019-10-25T06:25:48Z la_zaifir: Yeah, mutation would be a nightmare.
2019-10-25T06:25:51Z ggole: (Although a CL-style coercion does avoid those problems.)
2019-10-25T06:27:57Z lockywolf: well, it depends on the current interpreter. in principle, nothing would stop the programmet to (set!) the current interpreter to the one which expects the variable list not on the second but on the third position in the procedure list
2019-10-25T06:28:51Z erkin: We already have really good macros to deal with this stuff, why would we even bother implementing such a thing procedurally anyway?
2019-10-25T06:29:10Z la_zaifir: Again, eval is there if you need it.
2019-10-25T06:29:15Z erkin: At the risk of taping a machinegun to our foot, that is.
2019-10-25T06:30:08Z la_zaifir: IMHO having procedure be a disjoint type is an excellent thing.
2019-10-25T06:30:18Z lockywolf: friend, you're programming in scheme. you already have a giant MRLS tied to your foot
2019-10-25T06:30:32Z erkin: How so?
2019-10-25T06:30:32Z la_zaifir: Why?
2019-10-25T06:30:45Z erkin: Scheme is one of the least footgunny languages I've ever used.
2019-10-25T06:30:58Z la_zaifir: Footgunny :)
2019-10-25T06:31:07Z erkin: If that's not already a word, now it is. :-)
2019-10-25T06:32:06Z erkin: Google yields 131 words for it. #lisp is on frontpage even.
2019-10-25T06:32:10Z erkin: 131 results*
2019-10-25T06:32:48Z lockywolf: "writing large problems in portable Scheme is currently a lot like assembling a model ship inside a bottle"
2019-10-25T06:33:00Z erkin: That's not what footgun means.
2019-10-25T06:33:19Z erkin: Portable Scheme is just unnecessarily a chore.
2019-10-25T06:34:07Z erkin: A footgun is something that dangerously easily lets you inflict damage on yourself.
2019-10-25T06:34:18Z erkin: Unintended damage, at least.
2019-10-25T06:34:34Z lockywolf: well, there's plenty of ways in scheme to inflict damage on yourself
2019-10-25T06:34:39Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: Contra: Writing, ahem, portable C++ is quite possible but the language tends to "blow your whole leg off" (quoting Stroustroup himself!)
2019-10-25T06:35:20Z erkin: lockywolf: Compared to which language?
2019-10-25T06:35:45Z la_zaifir: There will never be any language in which it's impossible to do that.
2019-10-25T06:35:55Z lockywolf: bullet-proofness is not what people come to advanced languages for
2019-10-25T06:36:11Z erkin: Nor is it what people come to primitive languages for. :-)
2019-10-25T06:36:20Z lockywolf: I am aware of "unsafe java"
2019-10-25T06:36:49Z lockywolf: Still, Java is an attempt to make an idiot-proof language
2019-10-25T06:37:01Z la_zaifir: A very poor attempt.
2019-10-25T06:37:09Z erkin: I'd say Java still gives you enough rope to hang yourself.
2019-10-25T06:37:10Z ggole: This doesn't seem like a footgun that can also be used for slick advanced programming hax, though
2019-10-25T06:37:23Z ggole: Compared to, I dunno, call/cc.
2019-10-25T06:37:25Z erkin: I think Go would be the best contender for that title.
2019-10-25T06:37:48Z la_zaifir: Python, cough.
2019-10-25T06:38:27Z lockywolf: Still, I always thought that the less disjoint types the better.
2019-10-25T06:38:55Z la_zaifir: Disjointness is the whole point of types!
2019-10-25T06:39:09Z erkin: I have poor experience with languages that let types meld together haphazardly.
2019-10-25T06:39:56Z erkin: MUMPS is a perfect example.
2019-10-25T06:39:57Z lockywolf: la_zaifir, look, you can always (cons 'type-name obj))
2019-10-25T06:40:34Z ggole: Program in untyped lambda calculus! Only the one data constructor to worry about!
2019-10-25T06:40:35Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: What if the compiler could do that for you?
2019-10-25T06:40:48Z lockywolf: la_zaifir, try C++
2019-10-25T06:40:51Z erkin: magic
2019-10-25T06:40:55Z lockywolf: it does it for you
2019-10-25T06:41:17Z erkin: There are examples of Lisp programs that function well without any types other than lists and symbols.
2019-10-25T06:41:30Z lockywolf: exactly
2019-10-25T06:41:32Z erkin: A few special forms (like lambda) are necessary at the end of the day though.
2019-10-25T06:42:12Z erkin: lockywolf: Just because it's cheaper doesn't mean you need to attach stone wheels to your car instead of actual tyres.
2019-10-25T06:43:16Z la_zaifir: lockywolf: Not to pigeonhole your argument, but I think part of the popularity of weak typing comes from dealing with inadequate type systems.  C and C++, for example, have rather miserable type systems.
2019-10-25T06:43:17Z erkin: https://t3x.org/lisp64k/index.html
2019-10-25T06:43:24Z lockywolf: well, true, but if I wanted an expensive car, I'd just buy a Java-sedane or a Python-hatchback
2019-10-25T06:43:51Z erkin: Sounds like you might be interested in Forth then.
2019-10-25T06:44:26Z pjb: erkin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eusgXEa22oE
2019-10-25T06:44:42Z erkin: Ahah
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2019-10-25T06:47:23Z la_zaifir: "The programmers and managers using Java ... feel good about themselves because they are using a tool that, in theory, has a lot of power for handling problems of tremendous complexity. Just like the suburbanite who drives his SUV to the 7-11 on a paved road but feels good because in theory he could climb a 45-degree dirt slope."
2019-10-25T06:47:30Z la_zaifir: -- Philip Greenspun
2019-10-25T06:48:53Z lockywolf_: Does interpreting lists as procedures contradict the R7RS?
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2019-10-25T06:49:47Z la_zaifir: If it means that `procedure?' and `pair?' return #t on the same object, yes.
2019-10-25T06:50:42Z lockywolf_: Ok, makes sense
2019-10-25T06:50:44Z la_zaifir: (There are probably other problems; that's just the first that comes to mind.)
2019-10-25T06:52:02Z lockywolf_: ok, understood
2019-10-25T06:52:28Z lockywolf_: erkin, thanks for the Picolisp reference
2019-10-25T06:57:27Z erkin: No problem. It's a neat language with a completely different approach to Lisp.
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2019-10-25T07:28:06Z lockywolf_: I found some name collisions in Chibi, but can't reproduce
2019-10-25T07:30:15Z lockywolf_: With the symbol "result" and some srfi 159 combinator formatting
2019-10-25T07:37:34Z lockywolf_: btw, what do people think about newLISP?
2019-10-25T07:37:43Z lockywolf_: just found it in my distro's repo
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2019-10-25T07:41:26Z lockywolf_: it allows ('(lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 1 2)
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2019-10-25T07:53:42Z erkin: newLISP is also a rather strange dialect.
2019-10-25T07:54:25Z erkin: It appears all such unorthodox Lisps implement fexprs and dynamic scoping. Nostalgia, maybe? :-)
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2019-10-25T08:02:38Z farnerup: Easier to implement?
2019-10-25T08:03:47Z erkin: That also makes sense.
2019-10-25T08:06:04Z farnerup: A bit cynical perhaps, but I can imagine someone starting to implement a lisp without designing the language first and just ending up with dynamic scoping by accident.
2019-10-25T08:08:12Z wasamasa: sounds like bash
2019-10-25T08:08:46Z wasamasa: yes, it's using dynamic scoping
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2019-10-25T09:11:55Z amz3: hello all :)
2019-10-25T09:12:48Z vyzo: in the first lisp interpreter I wrote I accidentally had dynamic scoping
2019-10-25T09:14:51Z farnerup: How many have you written? :-)
2019-10-25T09:18:43Z vyzo: several :p
2019-10-25T09:23:04Z lockywolf_: amz3, hi
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2019-10-25T10:42:06Z amz3: predicate single-dispatch without subsumption (for the time being) sent to comp.lang.scheme
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2019-10-25T12:52:05Z amz3: https://github.com/joho/awesome-code-review
2019-10-25T13:08:54Z Riastradh: amz3: Studied prior art like Scheme48's predicate dispatch system?
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2019-10-25T13:11:25Z amz3: Riastradh: no. Thanks for the hint.
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2019-10-25T13:14:49Z amz3: Riastradh: can you give me a link where I can read more about it, please?
2019-10-25T13:16:21Z amz3: my search-fu is failing me.
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2019-10-25T13:43:45Z weinholt: jcowan, i'm not so sure the abusive posts on comp.lang.scheme are from a robot; the posts are coming solely from Belgian ISPs afaict. but maybe a Belgian robot that speaks Italian.
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2019-10-25T13:44:16Z jcowan: weinholt: I don't mean they are written by a robot, though I suppose they could be
2019-10-25T13:49:24Z jcowan: Thanks, Riastradh
2019-10-25T13:49:46Z weinholt: robot or not, i've sent a complaint to the ISPs involved. telenet answered that they have followed up on it. google group's abuse contact just bounced with an error, of course.
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2019-10-25T13:54:48Z gnomon: amz3, thanks for that interesting Github link.
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2019-10-25T14:00:26Z jcowan: Thanks
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2019-10-25T14:31:00Z Riastradh: amz3: In the Scheme48 source tree, scheme/rts/method.scm, used throughout scheme/rts for numeric stuff and a few other things.
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2019-10-26T04:57:50Z dieggsy: is there any special syntax-rules placeholder for 'any of the keywords'
2019-10-26T04:58:53Z dieggsy: i doubt it but eh
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2019-10-26T10:17:44Z lockywolf: Hello, everyone. Does http://snow-fort.org/pkg still not work?
2019-10-26T10:25:25Z weinholt: looks like it
2019-10-26T10:29:09Z lockywolf: Who would be the person who cares most about it? Alex Shinn only?
2019-10-26T10:34:04Z weinholt: i think so
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2019-10-26T10:38:26Z lockywolf_: not very good, is it?
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2019-10-26T10:41:19Z weinholt: could be better
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2019-10-26T11:42:58Z lockywolf: why would I have two (export ...) blocks in an .sld file?
2019-10-26T12:36:38Z lockywolf: Which one is better, (load "filename" (current-interaction-environment)) or (include "filename")?
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2019-10-26T12:38:54Z lockywolf: context: I want to wrap a reference implementation of an srfi, which consists of two (load)'able files, one for the implementation, and one for the tests. The loadable one I (include)'d in the .sld file, but how to deal with the tests I am not very sure.
2019-10-26T12:39:59Z lockywolf: If I (include) the file, chibi gives me warnings about out-of-order defines.
2019-10-26T12:43:29Z weinholt: prefer include for the library so it will with compilation. tests are often written as top-level programs that mix code with definitions, those would normally not be includeable
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2019-10-26T12:48:08Z weinholt: i guess (chibi test) has some workaround for that. (define ...) and (test ...) seem to be mixed freely
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2019-10-26T13:00:40Z spal: Is there a trivia bot in this channel to help with me FAQ type of questions?
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2019-10-26T13:06:31Z spal: !help
2019-10-26T13:07:19Z weinholt: spal, no. there's rudybot, but he's some other kind of bot
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2019-10-26T13:19:31Z lockywolf: chibi test seems to be cool, but I want to stay portable so far
2019-10-26T13:20:16Z lockywolf: so I'm trying to package srfi 78 into snow-fort
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2019-10-26T13:34:46Z lockywolf: Is #;(Created 2019-10-26) a valid srfi-62 comment?
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2019-10-26T13:41:52Z weinholt: maybe in r5rs, but not in r6rs or r7rs
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2019-10-26T14:27:17Z lockywolf_: Hm... Chicken and Chez still see them as comments
2019-10-26T14:27:23Z lockywolf_: chibi doesn't
2019-10-26T14:28:01Z lockywolf_: nevertheless, if anyone loves srfi-42 or srfi-78, I uploaded them to snow-fort.org
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2019-10-27T07:02:25Z lockywolf_: Are there any tools for visualizing scheme code?
2019-10-27T07:02:32Z lockywolf_: Apart from DrawEnv?
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2019-10-27T13:58:57Z GlenK: hello
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2019-10-27T14:00:58Z GlenK: so here's what I came up with for sicp exercise 3.2:  https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/CfeYWOanCXHE5n0ddSlpsw
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2019-10-27T14:01:46Z GlenK: The let bugs me though.  In that my solution doesn't seem as elegant as it could be.  any hints perhaps?
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2019-10-27T14:06:33Z amz3: GlenK: you can use `case` instead of cond
2019-10-27T14:07:06Z amz3: GlenK: what does mf means?
2019-10-27T14:07:17Z amz3: maybe `monitored-f` will be better
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2019-10-27T14:13:21Z GlenK: amz3: just the name the exercise instructions said to give the thing
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2019-10-27T15:44:29Z amz3: single dispatch came just on-time for halloween!
2019-10-27T15:45:22Z amz3: I was under the impression that it would solve my (tiny) problem, but it brings problems on its own.
2019-10-27T15:45:45Z amz3: one of the problem is: why not a full OO system.
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2019-10-27T15:46:29Z amz3: so instead of single dispatch, I will use the same thing that is used in scheme comparator.
2019-10-27T15:47:17Z amz3: that the procedure `engine-pack` will execute whatever packing (or encoding) procedure was submitted to `make-engine` instead of just returning the given pack procedure
2019-10-27T15:47:25Z amz3: I think.
2019-10-27T15:49:03Z amz3: I never understood how GOOPS (from guile) works.
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2019-10-27T16:48:14Z amz3: I think mis-evaluted the complexity of srfi 167 and srfi 168
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2019-10-27T16:59:56Z wasamasa: it makes me wonder what kind of stuff should be a srfi and what shouldn't
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2019-10-27T17:33:09Z la_zaifir: GlennK: That paste looks fine to me.  The let is completely idiomatic.
2019-10-27T17:33:16Z la_zaifir: Oh, they're gone.
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2019-10-28T02:08:31Z jusss: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/3CSj6vJZFx/
2019-10-28T02:08:59Z jusss: <unnamed port>:5:67: In procedure split-with-N:
2019-10-28T02:08:59Z jusss: In procedure car: Wrong type argument in position 1 (expecting pair): #<procedure list _>
2019-10-28T02:09:40Z jusss: where I'm wrong?
2019-10-28T02:10:35Z la_zaifir: You've made a typo.
2019-10-28T02:10:55Z la_zaifir: Namely you're missing an `a' in the last line.
2019-10-28T02:12:26Z jusss: la_zaifir: can you point it? there's a `a' in the last line
2019-10-28T02:12:38Z la_zaifir: (car list)
2019-10-28T02:12:54Z jusss: la_zaifir: aha
2019-10-28T02:14:30Z la_zaifir: Also, use `null?' in the outer `if'.
2019-10-28T02:16:13Z la_zaifir: And there's something really wonky about that recursion.
2019-10-28T02:16:30Z jusss: la_zaifir: yeah,
2019-10-28T02:17:56Z la_zaifir: What is it supposed to do?
2019-10-28T02:19:04Z jusss: la_zaifir: split a list with an element,
2019-10-28T02:19:33Z jusss: la_zaifir: like split (1 2 3 4 5) with 3 then get ((1 2) (4 5))
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2019-10-28T02:20:21Z jusss: actually I'd like to do split a list with a list, like (1 2 3 4 5) with (2 3) so get ((1) (4 5))
2019-10-28T02:21:14Z jusss: it's actually I'd like to do split a string with a string, but after all a string is still a list
2019-10-28T02:21:40Z la_zaifir: It's all the same problem.  If you can do it with symbols, you can generalize.
2019-10-28T02:21:58Z jusss: yeah, that's right
2019-10-28T02:22:17Z la_zaifir: The big point is that you're building up two lists here, so the base case should evaluate to '(() ())
2019-10-28T02:22:46Z la_zaifir: Er, a list of two lists.
2019-10-28T02:22:58Z jusss: yeah
2019-10-28T02:23:06Z jusss: lists in a list
2019-10-28T02:25:09Z la_zaifir: Actually, the easiest way to write this is to return multiple values by calling a continuation.
2019-10-28T02:26:28Z jusss: that would be difficult...
2019-10-28T02:26:46Z la_zaifir: Hacking up an example, one second.
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2019-10-28T02:31:35Z la_zaifir: jusss: https://paste.debian.net/1111255/
2019-10-28T02:32:34Z la_zaifir: jusss: (split-on 3 '(1 2 3 4 5) list) gives the result you wanted.
2019-10-28T02:33:21Z la_zaifir: Continuation-passing style is a good tactic to pull out when when you need to build up multiple values.
2019-10-28T02:37:38Z jusss: la_zaifir: what's the way to turn it to CPS?
2019-10-28T02:37:55Z jusss: I don't know how to do it
2019-10-28T02:38:07Z jusss: turn a recursive function to a form with CPS
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2019-10-28T02:39:49Z la_zaifir: Instead of returning a value in the base case, you call the continuation k on the values.  And, in the recursive steps, you replace the continuation rather than consing on a value or what have you.
2019-10-28T02:40:31Z la_zaifir: There are formal ways to do this, of course.  This is a fun introduction: http://matt.might.net/articles/cps-conversion/
2019-10-28T02:41:25Z la_zaifir: jusss: Since Scheme has multi-valued procedures, you can do all of this with `values' and `call-with-values', too.
2019-10-28T02:42:46Z jusss: la_zaifir: what's "multi-valued" ?
2019-10-28T02:43:42Z la_zaifir: rudybot: eval (values 'foo 'bar)
2019-10-28T02:43:42Z rudybot: la_zaifir: ; Value: 'foo
2019-10-28T02:43:43Z rudybot: la_zaifir: ; Value#2: 'bar
2019-10-28T02:43:52Z la_zaifir: jusss: ^^
2019-10-28T02:44:30Z jusss: la_zaifir: wait a sec, when scheme has this feature?
2019-10-28T02:44:34Z jusss: since when
2019-10-28T02:45:06Z la_zaifir: Since R5RS (1998), at least.
2019-10-28T02:45:07Z jusss: r4rs has this?
2019-10-28T02:45:49Z la_zaifir: No, R4RS doesn't have `values'.
2019-10-28T02:46:05Z jusss: la_zaifir: 'cause of some differences in those implements, I most write r4rs code...
2019-10-28T02:46:35Z la_zaifir: jusss: That's tough.  What Schemes are you writing for?
2019-10-28T02:46:47Z jusss: la_zaifir: racket or guile
2019-10-28T02:47:22Z jusss: I start with mit-scheme
2019-10-28T02:47:30Z la_zaifir: jusss: Both of those have some level of R7RS support.
2019-10-28T02:47:47Z la_zaifir: jusss: They can certainly handle R5 code.
2019-10-28T02:48:07Z jusss: la_zaifir: but there're some functions are not same in their implements
2019-10-28T02:48:16Z jusss: la_zaifir: I'm tired of those
2019-10-28T02:48:16Z la_zaifir: jusss: Example?
2019-10-28T02:48:25Z jusss: la_zaifir: 'bout socket
2019-10-28T02:48:32Z la_zaifir: jusss: Oh, well, yeah. :)
2019-10-28T02:48:52Z jcowan: Scheme isn't a language, it's a family of languages.
2019-10-28T02:49:06Z jusss: la_zaifir: but socket, thread, GUI are in SRFI
2019-10-28T02:49:24Z jusss: la_zaifir: but even now, is SRFI completed?
2019-10-28T02:49:58Z la_zaifir: jusss: There's no GUI SRFI that I know of, but I'm not really well-read in them.
2019-10-28T02:50:15Z jusss: actually I'm really disappointed about those, when I want to do socket thread or gui on scheme, every implement has its own implement, that sucks
2019-10-28T02:50:25Z la_zaifir: jusss: Far from it, there are lots of SRFIs moving forward ATM.
2019-10-28T02:50:48Z jusss: la_zaifir: what's ATM?
2019-10-28T02:50:55Z la_zaifir: "At the moment"
2019-10-28T02:51:37Z jusss: la_zaifir: sometimes I think cl is better than scheme, hey, they have a standard protocol to implement those
2019-10-28T02:52:39Z jusss: la_zaifir: do you use scheme to do something for work?
2019-10-28T02:52:56Z jusss: is there any company using scheme?
2019-10-28T02:52:58Z la_zaifir: jusss: I write a lot in Scheme, if nothing serious at the moment.
2019-10-28T02:53:00Z jcowan: CL has no standard socket or GUI or thread either
2019-10-28T02:53:11Z jcowan: There are some libraries that paper over the differences, though.
2019-10-28T02:53:18Z jcowan: That's what are being worked on now.
2019-10-28T02:53:39Z la_zaifir: jusss: I don't think the situation is that bad.  The various Schemes have fairly similar socket libraries, threads are mostly SRFI 18.
2019-10-28T02:53:55Z la_zaifir: jusss: And, well, GUIs suck horribly everywhere.
2019-10-28T02:53:56Z jusss: chez-scheme release its code, a few years before, what it's now?
2019-10-28T02:55:42Z la_zaifir: Chez is under the Apache license, IIUC.
2019-10-28T02:56:00Z la_zaifir: Which is great.  It's always been very fast.
2019-10-28T02:57:56Z jusss: I learned haskell for a while, which is very different with scheme
2019-10-28T02:59:35Z jusss: they had a type system, which is very difficult to do something like return function itself, it will cause an infinite type, but it's very natural in scheme
2019-10-28T03:00:32Z la_zaifir: How so?  It's easy to return a function in Haskell.
2019-10-28T03:00:55Z jusss: la_zaifir: return function itself within it
2019-10-28T03:01:25Z lockywolf__: Is there any other GUI for scheme other than tk?
2019-10-28T03:01:55Z jusss: la_zaifir: (define f (lambda (_) (display _) f)) how you can implement this in haskell?
2019-10-28T03:01:58Z la_zaifir: jusss: You mean like (define (func) func) ?  Well, no, that has an infinite type.
2019-10-28T03:02:41Z la_zaifir: jusss: I know it's the obvious response, but "why would you want _that_?"
2019-10-28T03:03:01Z lockywolf__: tracing?
2019-10-28T03:03:14Z lockywolf__: looks super useful
2019-10-28T03:03:39Z la_zaifir: Hmm, that's a thought.
2019-10-28T03:03:53Z jusss: la_zaifir: so we can use some chain call like (((f 3) 4) 5)
2019-10-28T03:04:12Z jusss: la_zaifir: like fix f = f (fix f)
2019-10-28T03:04:12Z la_zaifir: That's a silly way to implement `fold'.
2019-10-28T03:05:14Z jusss: la_zaifir: any x would be the fixed-point in f
2019-10-28T03:05:24Z la_zaifir: It's exactly stuff like that that type systems exist to stop.  If you want untyped λ-calculus, you know where to find it.
2019-10-28T03:06:06Z lockywolf__: I have seen pstk, stk, and brief googling also returns gauche-tk
2019-10-28T03:06:22Z lockywolf__: I belive because making bindings for tk is super easy
2019-10-28T03:06:42Z jusss: lockywolf__: I heard that racket has its own gui implement
2019-10-28T03:06:58Z lockywolf__: racket is not scheme, otherwise, yes
2019-10-28T03:07:02Z lockywolf__: it does
2019-10-28T03:07:12Z jusss: la_zaifir: what is untyped lambda-calculus?
2019-10-28T03:07:28Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: From our own wasamasa https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/kiwi
2019-10-28T03:07:49Z daviid: lockywolf__: guile-gnome, guile-gi ... racket ha its own gui system ...
2019-10-28T03:07:57Z daviid: *has
2019-10-28T03:08:10Z la_zaifir: jusss: The foundational language of functional programming!
2019-10-28T03:08:20Z lockywolf__: that's all implementation-specific
2019-10-28T03:08:33Z la_zaifir nods sadly.
2019-10-28T03:08:34Z daviid: jcowan: clim was an attempt to solve the cl gui 'thing'
2019-10-28T03:08:46Z jusss: la_zaifir: from math?
2019-10-28T03:09:29Z jusss: la_zaifir: are you familiar with category theory?
2019-10-28T03:09:42Z la_zaifir: jusss: Somewhat.
2019-10-28T03:09:44Z lockywolf__: like, I am not a visual guy. Admittedly, I almost bleed my eyes off while solving the "picture language" section of SICP
2019-10-28T03:10:45Z lockywolf__: I also used '(chibi process)' to call imagemagick, but it should be portable to r7rs
2019-10-28T03:14:37Z lockywolf__: or maybe not, but portable to srfi 170
2019-10-28T03:15:09Z daviid: lockywolf__: this is about image processing, that is very different from gui, in that domain, then look at guile-cv and aiscm as well ... portable gui or img proc advanced tool is next to impossible, imo, for performance reason mainly
2019-10-28T03:15:11Z jusss: la_zaifir: which implement you mostly use? guile?
2019-10-28T03:15:35Z jusss: I heard that guile has lots of features now
2019-10-28T03:16:20Z la_zaifir: jusss: I use CHICKEN mostly, but I'd also recommend s9fes and chibi.
2019-10-28T03:16:45Z jusss: la_zaifir: I never heard s9fes and chibi before...
2019-10-28T03:16:52Z la_zaifir: (Of course, s9 is stubbornly R4RS.  But the code is very nice.)
2019-10-28T03:17:13Z jusss: aha, R4RS
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2019-10-28T03:17:37Z jusss: that's why I write things with R4RS, so it can run any implement
2019-10-28T03:18:17Z jusss: I heard there's another beautiful implement called Scheme-48
2019-10-28T03:18:26Z amz3: jusss: I use chez scheme
2019-10-28T03:18:52Z amz3: but yeah guile has a lot
2019-10-28T03:18:55Z jusss: amz3: does chez have thread, GUI stuff now?
2019-10-28T03:19:13Z amz3: jusss: thread yes. GUI stuff not really.
2019-10-28T03:19:41Z amz3: jusss: I use termbox :P
2019-10-28T03:20:44Z amz3: jusss: what do you want to do?
2019-10-28T03:21:16Z jusss: amz3: I'm writting a robot wich bridge IRC to Telegram now,
2019-10-28T03:21:36Z jusss: so I can talk to IRC within telegram bot
2019-10-28T03:21:44Z jusss: on my phone
2019-10-28T03:22:18Z jusss: iPhone doesn't allow any app run at the backstage, so there's no a good IRC client on iPhone
2019-10-28T03:22:25Z amz3: maybe gambit is the correct choice for android / ios
2019-10-28T03:22:44Z daviid: kawa scheme as well
2019-10-28T03:22:52Z amz3: I read they had success on ios at least.
2019-10-28T03:23:10Z jusss: I don't want to write an app, I just need a code to delay the messages, the code can run at PC
2019-10-28T03:23:42Z amz3: relay
2019-10-28T03:23:50Z jusss: yeah, relay
2019-10-28T03:23:51Z jusss: typo
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2019-10-28T03:25:10Z irc27313: this is a msg from telegram
2019-10-28T03:27:25Z amz3: irc27313: jusss: then use guie or chicken
2019-10-28T03:28:03Z jusss: amz3: can your guile code run on chicken? :)
2019-10-28T03:28:26Z amz3: not sure about that
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2019-10-28T03:29:26Z amz3: small things can run on every scheme. But there is always missing and different pieces.
2019-10-28T03:29:28Z jusss: I've learned a few languages, like scheme, python, js, haskell, kotlin, I like scheme,
2019-10-28T03:29:40Z jusss: but I use python or js for work...
2019-10-28T03:29:53Z amz3: me too
2019-10-28T03:31:01Z amz3: why do you like scheme?
2019-10-28T03:31:14Z jusss: amz3: because it's simple!
2019-10-28T03:31:22Z jusss: simple syntax
2019-10-28T03:31:37Z jusss: all is just a list
2019-10-28T03:32:05Z amz3: are you copy / pasting my blog post?
2019-10-28T03:32:12Z amz3: too look smart?
2019-10-28T03:32:26Z jusss: amz3: I don't know your blog...
2019-10-28T03:32:33Z amz3: jusss: I am just kidding
2019-10-28T03:32:46Z amz3: jusss: do you know about https://scheme-lang.com/
2019-10-28T03:32:48Z jusss: amz3: :)
2019-10-28T03:33:13Z amz3: also https://scheme-lang.com/cons/
2019-10-28T03:33:59Z jusss: amz3: no
2019-10-28T03:34:15Z amz3: I know people come to that website but I am not sure how they do?!
2019-10-28T03:35:01Z jusss: amz3: I heard that lisp is designed for AI, but AI doesn't use lisp nowadays, it's so ironic
2019-10-28T03:35:19Z jusss: they use python, aha
2019-10-28T03:35:58Z amz3: yeah i known
2019-10-28T03:36:19Z jusss: I think everyone should try scheme and haskell
2019-10-28T03:36:47Z jusss: both powerful and beautiful
2019-10-28T03:36:55Z la_zaifir: FP world domination starts with you!
2019-10-28T03:38:46Z lockywolf__: I actually started learning scheme exactly because I was dissatisfied with AI done in Python
2019-10-28T03:38:57Z jusss: haskell has ADT, Monad, and scheme has AST, they both have lambda calculus, CPS
2019-10-28T03:39:01Z lockywolf__: Actually, "AI" is just a buzzword
2019-10-28T03:39:43Z lockywolf__: In the times of the stereotypical phrase "Lisp is for AI", people, afair, understood AI as being something like PROLOG
2019-10-28T03:39:49Z jusss: haskell even has continuation-capture stuff and macro just like scheme,
2019-10-28T03:40:01Z la_zaifir: jusss: Scheme has monads and ADTs, of course.
2019-10-28T03:40:16Z la_zaifir: jusss: Haskell doesn't really have macros, though.
2019-10-28T03:40:18Z lockywolf__: But the reason I started learning scheme was because I found that it had lazy evaluation
2019-10-28T03:40:27Z jusss: la_zaifir: yeah, that terms exist in most languages
2019-10-28T03:40:34Z jusss: la_zaifir: they have TH
2019-10-28T03:40:40Z jusss: Temple Haskell
2019-10-28T03:41:05Z lockywolf__: And TensorFlow (and the other libraries for "AI") are essentially just schemes in disguise
2019-10-28T03:41:32Z lockywolf__: The pythonic wrapping around native TF objects looked so ugly
2019-10-28T03:41:52Z jusss: la_zaifir: I don't think scheme has ADT, scheme doesn't have a type system
2019-10-28T03:42:26Z la_zaifir: jusss: cons, car, cdr
2019-10-28T03:42:33Z la_zaifir: jusss: Oh look, an abstract data type!
2019-10-28T03:42:34Z lockywolf__: It's not that scheme does not have a type system. It is that it has too many
2019-10-28T03:42:56Z jusss: la_zaifir: but they don't have a type...
2019-10-28T03:44:12Z jusss: la_zaifir: what about type constructor or value/data constructor, (Just 3) can be a value in scheme?
2019-10-28T03:44:22Z la_zaifir: jusss: Sure lists have a type.  They're Scheme objects on which pair? returns #t.
2019-10-28T03:44:43Z jusss: if you say Just is a function, then yes, Just 3 is a value in scheme
2019-10-28T03:45:33Z jusss: that's a magic, we can take its paramter from function's call
2019-10-28T03:45:52Z la_zaifir: jusss: The important thing about a `just' is that we can tell it's a maybe and a just and we have some eliminator which can extract the value.
2019-10-28T03:48:39Z la_zaifir: jusss: It's quite easy to implement a maybe type in Scheme.  It's just going to look a bit different than the Haskell version.
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2019-10-28T03:49:48Z jusss: la_zaifir: example?
2019-10-28T03:50:18Z lockywolf__: How doesn't define-record-type doesn't count as a type?
2019-10-28T03:51:15Z lockywolf__: The define-record-type construct is generative: each use creates a new record type that is distinct from all existing types, including Scheme’s predefined types and other record types — even record types of the same name or structure.
2019-10-28T03:52:38Z lockywolf__: R^7RS, 5.5
2019-10-28T03:53:43Z la_zaifir: jusss: A start is (define %nothing-obj (string-copy "nothing")) (define-record-type just (just value) just? (value just-value)) (define (nothing? x) (eqv? x %nothing-obj))
2019-10-28T03:54:38Z la_zaifir: And (define (maybe-ref m succeed fail) (if (nothing? m) (fail) (succeed (just-value m))))
2019-10-28T03:54:52Z la_zaifir: Voila, maybe.
2019-10-28T03:56:46Z jusss: data Maybe a = Just a | Nothing
2019-10-28T03:58:32Z jusss: la_zaifir: I'm thinking how to split a list with a list based on we have implemnt split a list with an element
2019-10-28T03:59:08Z jusss: haskell's Data.ByteString has poor methods on handle ByteString
2019-10-28T03:59:24Z la_zaifir: Just because there isn't a type declaration for maybe doesn't mean that maybe isn't a type.
2019-10-28T04:00:11Z la_zaifir: In Scheme, we can usually say that T is a type if there's a `T?' predicate that only returns #t on Ts.
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2019-10-28T06:19:02Z jusss``: la_zaifir: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/rhXGzhT65t/
2019-10-28T06:19:40Z jusss``: I wrote this code down, but I don't where I'm wrong...
2019-10-28T06:19:49Z jusss``: split a list with a list
2019-10-28T06:20:20Z jusss``: (split-with-list (list 1 2 3 4 5) (list 2 3) list)  it suppose to get ((1) (4 5))...
2019-10-28T06:28:06Z jusss``: oh, I shouldn't use list
2019-10-28T06:28:12Z jusss``: list isn't '()
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2019-10-28T06:40:40Z lockywolf_: I would not recommend chibi to anyone except people interested strictly in r7rs-large
2019-10-28T06:43:39Z amz3: why is that?
2019-10-28T06:44:02Z amz3: last time I checked some stuff were missing.
2019-10-28T06:44:32Z lockywolf_: Because of the attitude of the developers
2019-10-28T06:44:56Z lockywolf_: I mean, being a genious is not enough to make an efficient programming system
2019-10-28T06:45:14Z lockywolf_: *genius
2019-10-28T06:45:41Z lockywolf_: They see it as a toy, and a convenient tool for testing srfis.
2019-10-28T06:45:48Z lockywolf_: And it works for this purpose.
2019-10-28T06:46:05Z lockywolf_: Developing anything serious in chibi is not realistic.
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2019-10-28T06:48:31Z pjb: jusss``: (list) returns () but there's no good reason not to write directly '().
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2019-10-28T06:53:13Z lockywolf_: amz3, did you mean completeness of the implementation? I believe, since 0.7.3, chibi supports all of r7rs-red
2019-10-28T06:53:25Z lockywolf_: probably not r7rs-orange
2019-10-28T06:53:45Z amz3: oh ok
2019-10-28T06:55:47Z lockywolf_: I think I actually should check
2019-10-28T06:57:04Z lockywolf_: No, I don't mean to discourage. Chibi is a very sophisticated toy, I definitely recommend having a look at it. I certainly have learned a lot from it.
2019-10-28T07:01:29Z jusss``: la_zaifir: this is my version split a list with a list https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/psrVCrmYXc/
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2019-10-28T07:05:48Z amz3: lockywolf_: what scheme will use?
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2019-10-28T07:06:42Z lockywolf_: You mean, which scheme would I recommend?
2019-10-28T07:06:53Z lockywolf_: I don't know, not qualified enough.
2019-10-28T07:07:23Z lockywolf_: chibi and racket are the only ones that I used
2019-10-28T07:07:49Z lockywolf_: I mean, I tested a bit of code on chicken and chez, but only for the sake of comparison with chibi
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2019-10-28T07:25:35Z wasamasa: la_zaifir: lol, you go and pick the worst of the gui eggs I made
2019-10-28T07:25:46Z wasamasa: la_zaifir: kiwi is a toy and sdl-only
2019-10-28T07:26:00Z wasamasa: la_zaifir: libui is better, but I doubt they've got their shit together
2019-10-28T07:26:17Z wasamasa: la_zaifir: nuklear is pretty cool, but is designed for a certain class of applications
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2019-10-28T07:43:34Z lockywolf_: so we're still left with pstk?
2019-10-28T07:43:51Z wasamasa: what do you mean with "still"?
2019-10-28T07:44:12Z wasamasa: are you referring to a gui library working across scheme implementations?
2019-10-28T07:44:23Z lockywolf_: yeah
2019-10-28T07:44:29Z wasamasa: yes, that's your best bet
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2019-10-28T07:45:19Z wasamasa: and even that I doubt to work on windows
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2019-10-28T07:45:36Z wasamasa: IIRC it's using pipes for communications
2019-10-28T07:46:29Z wasamasa: ok, no, it's just spawning processes
2019-10-28T07:47:04Z wasamasa: in any case, you depend on a working tcl/tk installation and at this point I'd seriously consider to just write the whole application using tcl/tk
2019-10-28T07:47:19Z wasamasa: that's what the CHICKEN author did for its debugger
2019-10-28T07:49:38Z wasamasa: it spawns a listener to talk with scheme over a socket or so
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2019-10-28T08:19:31Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: if you want brownie points, try the gtk server project and write some portable scheme code interacting with it
2019-10-28T08:22:08Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: that will most likely require a SRFI for asynchronous process control or sockets
2019-10-28T08:23:14Z mdhughes: If I was making a non-game GUI with Scheme, I'd just run a local web server. Everyone likes/tolerates web UI, and it always works.
2019-10-28T08:23:54Z wasamasa: that's the easy way out
2019-10-28T08:24:06Z wasamasa: how's the status with regards to web libraries/frameworks though?
2019-10-28T08:24:24Z wasamasa: I'm aware of racket and CHICKEN providing options, anything else?
2019-10-28T08:24:50Z mdhughes: On the Mac, I loathe most tk/gtk/qt uncanny valley UIs. Much rather have a web page.
2019-10-28T08:25:19Z mdhughes: Chicken's awful is nice enough.
2019-10-28T08:25:47Z erkin: awfully nice :-)
2019-10-28T08:25:56Z wasamasa: I wrote all my web stuff from scratch though without awful
2019-10-28T08:26:03Z wasamasa: tried it recently and immediately discovered a bug
2019-10-28T08:26:18Z mdhughes: Gerbil has a decent :std/net/httpd but it's low-level.
2019-10-28T08:26:23Z wasamasa: it ignored specifying a bind address and defaulted to listening on all interfaces :D
2019-10-28T08:26:56Z mdhughes: https://cons.io/tutorials/httpd.html#a-simple-web-server
2019-10-28T08:26:59Z wasamasa: fixing it was trivial
2019-10-28T08:27:18Z wasamasa: hm, looks a bit like what the nodejs servers give you
2019-10-28T08:28:42Z mdhughes: For old-timers like me who don't mind writing cgi or servlets, it's more than enough.
2019-10-28T08:37:01Z vyzo: it's also quite fast :p
2019-10-28T08:48:07Z wasamasa: ah, guile has artanis
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2019-10-28T08:49:24Z lockywolf_: This chat is full of perverts...
2019-10-28T08:49:41Z lockywolf_ included
2019-10-28T08:54:47Z erkin: I can't stand web UIs, really. Especially if the program bundles a goddamn web browser with it to run a JavaScript webapp. (Looking at you, Electron.)
2019-10-28T08:55:03Z lockywolf_: My next goal in life is to make scheme portably interoperable with fortran.
2019-10-28T08:55:47Z wasamasa: lol
2019-10-28T08:55:51Z erkin: Writing portable Scheme is a Herculean task right now. It's safer to pick your own dialect and stick to it.
2019-10-28T08:55:55Z wasamasa: have you ever written fortran?
2019-10-28T08:55:58Z lockywolf_: Fortran has a nice feature for class serialization called "namelists". The next thing I am doing is I am implementing a parser.
2019-10-28T08:56:13Z wasamasa: this sounds familiar
2019-10-28T08:56:26Z erkin: Writing Fortran bindings that work with most (if not all) dialects is at least doubly hard.
2019-10-28T08:56:31Z wasamasa: I think it's been like a year since the last time I've heard of this
2019-10-28T08:56:38Z lockywolf_: Yeah, from me.
2019-10-28T08:56:43Z lockywolf_: On this very channel.
2019-10-28T08:57:28Z lockywolf_: I think that parsing namelists should be not that hard.
2019-10-28T08:58:25Z wasamasa: well, compared to parsing s-expressions...
2019-10-28T08:59:17Z lockywolf_: I actually started writing one about that time, but found that I don't understand enough about scheme. So I decided to take some simple introductory tutorial of scheme, which turned out to be SICP.
2019-10-28T08:59:29Z wasamasa: judging from http://jules-lsm.github.io/vn4.2/namelists/intro.html your time might be invested better in writing an ini/toml parser
2019-10-28T08:59:48Z wasamasa: because then you might not be the only one to use that library
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2019-10-28T09:04:51Z lockywolf_: sicp is hard
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2019-10-28T09:07:27Z amz3: let's go shopping
2019-10-28T09:08:31Z lockywolf_: ?
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2019-10-28T09:09:27Z amz3: XYZ is hard, let's go shopping!
2019-10-28T09:09:31Z amz3: it is a gimmick
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2019-10-28T09:10:17Z wasamasa: more commonly known as meme
2019-10-28T09:10:18Z lockywolf_: gimmick [ˈɡimik] (NOUN), a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.
2019-10-28T09:10:54Z lockywolf_: What exactly are you trying to attract attention to? To the fact that it is hard?
2019-10-28T09:11:16Z aeth: it's a reference to "math is hard let's go shopping", which was something Barbie said once or something... which was quite controversial maybe 10 years ago
2019-10-28T09:12:45Z amz3: indeed s/gimmick/meme/
2019-10-28T09:13:05Z amz3: aeth: I did not know that.
2019-10-28T09:13:16Z amz3: Barbie says things?!
2019-10-28T09:14:17Z lockywolf_: Saint Barbara is venerated by Catholics who face the danger of sudden and violent death at work. She is the patron of miners, tunnellers, armourers, military engineers, gunsmiths, and anyone else who worked with cannon and explosives.
2019-10-28T09:14:26Z aeth: okay, the first result on DDG says that it was 1992, and it's a blog post from April 2008. https://blog.larrydavidson.com/2008/04/04/math-is-hard-lets-go-shopping-says-barbie-and-others/
2019-10-28T09:14:32Z lockywolf_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Barbara
2019-10-28T09:14:36Z aeth: for whatever reason it was a meme 10 years ago...
2019-10-28T09:16:38Z aeth: amz3: yes, there was/is a talking Barbie, who said "Math class is tough" and "Want to go shopping?" in 1992 or 1993 that somehow became "Math is hard, let's go shopping" circa 2006-2008. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002892.html
2019-10-28T09:16:49Z aeth: (this link on its origins is March 2006)
2019-10-28T09:17:14Z amz3: TIL
2019-10-28T09:19:12Z lockywolf_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyhrYis509A
2019-10-28T09:19:53Z aeth: amz3: that post says it was on Usenet in 1994-1997, so I don't know why it had a resurgence 10 years ago (iirc, but the two results that are relevant are from 2006 and 2008 so that's roughly in line).
2019-10-28T09:21:18Z aeth: s/it was on Usenet/the phrase in its final form was on Usenet/
2019-10-28T09:22:28Z lockywolf_: sicp is hard not because of the math though
2019-10-28T09:23:47Z aeth: well, it's more of a meme template now... one that comes around every 10 years, apparently
2019-10-28T09:24:15Z aeth: anyway, the origins of phrases is hard, let's go shopping
2019-10-28T09:24:58Z amz3: aeth: I like that kind of work, I mean looking at the origin of stuff. Maybe, I should have checked the origin of my meme before using it.
2019-10-28T09:25:22Z amz3: aeth: fwiw, some one made that meme a few months back.
2019-10-28T09:25:30Z aeth: lockywolf_: sicp does iirc use math examples that could go above the head of people who aren't very mathy, especially as an intro to programming... iirc.
2019-10-28T09:25:52Z lockywolf_: it does
2019-10-28T09:26:05Z lockywolf_ agrees completely
2019-10-28T09:26:54Z amz3: SICP is math heavy? maybe.
2019-10-28T09:27:02Z wasamasa: the first chapter, yes
2019-10-28T09:27:06Z wasamasa: most people never finish it
2019-10-28T09:27:17Z aeth: well, I remember the video lectures and they start with the derivative iirc
2019-10-28T09:27:30Z wasamasa: I gave up when it came to huffman trees
2019-10-28T09:27:41Z amz3: ha! oh!
2019-10-28T09:28:27Z amz3: I would give up. I only read the meta-evaluator chapter, maybe the picture language and also the agenda thing. Those are not mathy.
2019-10-28T09:29:15Z amz3: talking of books, LISP In Small Pieces is great. For those looking to implement a Scheme.
2019-10-28T09:29:57Z lockywolf_: its author make an OOP-srfi
2019-10-28T09:30:00Z lockywolf_: *made
2019-10-28T09:30:39Z wasamasa: I'd be wary of anyone claiming to have done all SICP exercises
2019-10-28T09:30:59Z lockywolf_: well, there are several people on the net who have done that
2019-10-28T09:31:07Z wasamasa: bullshit
2019-10-28T09:31:12Z lockywolf_: why?
2019-10-28T09:31:29Z wasamasa: there's at least one exercise requiring you to do a mathematical proof
2019-10-28T09:31:39Z wasamasa: and some requiring you to write interpreters/compilers
2019-10-28T09:31:44Z lockywolf_: what's wrong about that?
2019-10-28T09:32:11Z wasamasa: considering the prevalence of regex whenever encountering parsing, I have my doubts people get as far as doing an interpreter/compiler
2019-10-28T09:32:43Z amz3: lockywolf_: are you talking about https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-20/
2019-10-28T09:32:49Z lockywolf_: well, it doesn't mean there is not enough stubborn people to do that
2019-10-28T09:33:08Z lockywolf_: amz3, yes
2019-10-28T09:33:11Z wasamasa: look at exercise 5.51 and 5.52
2019-10-28T09:33:35Z wasamasa: there aren't many people who successfully wrote scheme implementations, let alone in C
2019-10-28T09:35:00Z lockywolf_: it's not the hardest exercise out there
2019-10-28T09:35:36Z mdhughes: There's not a lot in SICP that should be hard for anyone who passed AP high school math. For college students it's just daily work.
2019-10-28T09:35:49Z lockywolf_: the hardest one is 2.16
2019-10-28T09:35:52Z wasamasa: lol
2019-10-28T09:35:59Z amz3: AP?
2019-10-28T09:36:20Z lockywolf_: because I believe, it is essentially unsolved
2019-10-28T09:36:21Z mdhughes: "Advanced Placement". The high-end track.
2019-10-28T09:36:32Z wasamasa: I just pointed towards the existence of a branch of mathematics dedicated to that problem
2019-10-28T09:37:03Z lockywolf_: wasamasa, 2.16? The branch exists, but I believe, there is no definitive solution
2019-10-28T09:37:16Z wasamasa: its existence strongly suggests that there is no solution
2019-10-28T09:37:38Z lockywolf_: You would need to do covariance propagation, which is essentially solving Fokker-Planck on graphs.
2019-10-28T09:38:18Z lockywolf_: Which I don't think is even well-defined
2019-10-28T09:38:27Z mdhughes: 2.16 is a trick, try to get you to solve halting problem.
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2019-10-28T09:38:52Z wasamasa: anyway, my point stands, people claiming to have solved all SICP exercises are full of shit
2019-10-28T09:39:19Z lockywolf_: mdhughes, why would it be equivalent to the halting problem?
2019-10-28T09:39:21Z mdhughes: You can still prove that some statements are undecidable and that satisfies the exercise.
2019-10-28T09:40:55Z mdhughes: (* x x), solve for x. Undecidable. But expressions with multiple variables can't even be traced down every branch, so when do you stop tracing?
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2019-10-28T09:41:44Z lockywolf_: (cons (sqrt x) (* -1 (sqrt x))) ?
2019-10-28T09:42:34Z lockywolf_: Did you mean x = f(x) for any f?
2019-10-28T09:42:45Z mdhughes: Sure, now which is it?
2019-10-28T09:43:04Z lockywolf_: Well, make two branches.
2019-10-28T09:44:13Z lockywolf_: I see how this problem reduces to requiring covariance matrices for variable, but I don't see how it becomes undecidable.
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2019-10-28T09:45:04Z mdhughes: And by the end of SICP, you should have the skills to make the interpreter/compiler. We did different languages in my CS classes, using yacc and C, but every CS undergrad can eventually do that.
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2019-10-28T09:46:40Z mdhughes: Mine was a FORTH-like, because I was and am an RPN calc person, even if it's awkward for anything larger than a rocket equation.
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2019-10-28T09:53:43Z lockywolf_: https://gitlab.com/Lockywolf/chibi-sicp
2019-10-28T09:54:01Z lockywolf_: I don't vouch that every solution is correct though.
2019-10-28T09:55:14Z lockywolf_: and it's only two chapters
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2019-10-28T10:04:32Z erkin: I don't think RPN is awkward tbh
2019-10-28T10:04:59Z erkin: It makes using the calculator for complex calculations very easy if you get used to it.
2019-10-28T10:05:12Z erkin: I miss my HP 50g. :-(
2019-10-28T10:07:15Z mdhughes: pcalc's a pretty good substitute.
2019-10-28T10:08:17Z mdhughes: But I wouldn't write anything more than a pageful in it, it's too much mental state to keep up.
2019-10-28T10:08:45Z erkin: I wanted to get a new RPN calculator but my options seem pretty limited. HP no longer produces traditional RPN calculators. I think HP 35S is the only option (and it costs $60).
2019-10-28T10:09:24Z erkin: There's a Swiss brand that makes knockoffs of HP's old calculators, but they're extremely expensive. More of a hobbyist thing.
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2019-10-28T10:20:24Z mdhughes: They still make 12C, 35S, and "Prime" as their new graphing calc.
2019-10-28T10:21:16Z mdhughes: I have a 35S, but really just use pcalc on my phone or desktop. It's 90% of the old capabilities, and a bunch of new ones.
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2019-10-28T10:21:49Z wasamasa: lockywolf_: I guess you got further than me
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2019-10-28T10:22:51Z mdhughes: 48SX was my college calculator, I loved it beyond belief.
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2019-10-28T12:40:08Z amz3: chibi was missing some srfi (unlike what lockywolf said previously)
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2019-10-28T14:11:36Z amz3: I can not believe it took me only two hours, to add a bunch of srfi to chibi scheme (with tests) and port srif 167 and 168.
2019-10-28T14:11:44Z amz3: with tests.
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2019-10-28T14:19:42Z amz3: I have done r7rs in chibi, chez and guile and using all three implementations, it is _easy_ to port existing r7rs srfis...
2019-10-28T14:19:57Z amz3: with tests.
2019-10-28T14:20:20Z amz3: maybe what I have done requires more tests and performance tuning. but the basics are easy.
2019-10-28T14:23:43Z amz3: with tests.
2019-10-28T14:23:47Z amz3: ;)
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2019-10-28T15:05:05Z jcowan reads amz3 and does the victory dance
2019-10-28T15:08:12Z amz3: :)
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2019-10-28T17:11:03Z la_zaifir: wasamasa: The important thing about exercises in SICP is to at least attempt them.
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2019-10-28T18:07:18Z jcowan: lockywolf: Chibi is meant for embedding specifically; in that application it is certainly not a toy.  It's also the only Scheme (that I know of) on Plan 9.
2019-10-28T18:08:49Z gwatt: jcowan: s9fes
2019-10-28T18:11:48Z jcowan: Cool, didn't know that.  Perhaps the author got sick of being asked "Is Scheme 9 for Plan 9?" and made it so.
2019-10-28T18:13:17Z gwatt: I assumed from the name that it started out on plan 9
2019-10-28T18:13:27Z wasamasa: IIRC some people tried CHICKEN on plan9
2019-10-28T18:13:38Z wasamasa: the biggest stumbling block is posix stuff, as always
2019-10-28T18:14:52Z vyzo: is plan9 still a thing? who cares?
2019-10-28T18:17:01Z gwatt: whoever still works on 9front cares. Also harvey-os.
2019-10-28T18:19:57Z jcowan: For me it is.
2019-10-28T18:20:24Z jcowan: If it weren't for a small number of issues I'd be using sam -d (the dumb mode) instead of ex.
2019-10-28T18:20:48Z jcowan: I posted a proposed enhancement at deadpixi/sam, but no response.
2019-10-28T18:20:53Z gwatt: what are the small issues?
2019-10-28T18:21:39Z jcowan: https://github.com/johnwcowan/exx/blob/master/sam-extensions.txt
2019-10-28T18:21:59Z jcowan: I don't have time/energy to make the needed changes to sam myself
2019-10-28T18:22:59Z jcowan: That isn't prioritized, but I could do that.
2019-10-28T18:24:00Z amz3: "Under Plan 9, UNIX's everything is a file metaphor was to be extended via a pervasive network-centric filesystem, and graphical user interface assumed as a basis for almost all functionality, though _retaining_ a heavily text-centric ideology." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs
2019-10-28T18:24:37Z la_zaifir: jcowan: Yes, some of those extensions would certainly make sam -d more usable.
2019-10-28T18:25:19Z jcowan: "was to be" should be "is"
2019-10-28T18:27:06Z amz3: I am wondering how the "everything is a filesystem" plays with the lispos idea(s)
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2019-10-28T18:27:17Z amz3: I guess I will need to try it myself.
2019-10-28T18:31:06Z amz3: based on my reading on wmii (a window manager inspired from plan9 ideas) they map the application programming interface to a filesystem thing.
2019-10-28T18:31:46Z jcowan: A whole lot of stuff now in the mainstream from union mounts to UTF-8 exists because it was pioneered in P9
2019-10-28T18:32:05Z jcowan: fixed the WP article to say "is"
2019-10-28T18:33:18Z amz3: good
2019-10-28T18:33:57Z gwatt: Several of the people in plan 9 had so much fun the first time the remade it in go
2019-10-28T18:34:29Z jcowan: and now the 9p protocol will be used internally by Windows Linux Subsystem 2 to talk to the Windows file system
2019-10-28T18:34:38Z jcowan: "is used"
2019-10-28T18:36:03Z gwatt: huh
2019-10-28T18:36:31Z amz3: so there is go version of plan9?
2019-10-28T18:36:37Z amz3: what does it mean?
2019-10-28T18:36:44Z vyzo: no, go is the embodiment of plan9 ideas about programming :p
2019-10-28T18:36:53Z gwatt: amz3: no, several of the people who originally worked on plan 9 also made go
2019-10-28T18:37:05Z amz3: gwatt: thanks
2019-10-28T18:37:21Z amz3: vyzo: probably.
2019-10-28T18:37:44Z jcowan: Go has been ported to Plan 9, though it's experimental still
2019-10-28T18:37:45Z gwatt: There are a number of plan9-isms in go, like using the `dial` when making network connections
2019-10-28T18:37:59Z jcowan: closing the loop, as it were
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2019-10-28T18:38:56Z gwatt: Also up until the compiler was made self-hosting it used the plan9 assemblers to generate object code.
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2019-10-28T18:49:04Z jcowan nods
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2019-10-29T01:12:14Z lockywolf: Which other software uses chibi as an extension language?
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2019-10-29T01:14:10Z lockywolf: "An extension language" is a standard excuse in programming languages, which means "I have a cool FFI, but I have neither resources nor desire to reimplement CPAN or PIP"
2019-10-29T01:14:56Z lockywolf: (as an insanely large collection of packages)
2019-10-29T01:16:29Z lockywolf: Again, nothing personal against chibi, I have written some code in it, and will probably write even more.
2019-10-29T01:19:10Z lockywolf: A lot of chibi visibly grows from SICP. I guess, this is true in lots of other schemes too, but it is sort of a nice feeling when you spend 10 hours on an exercise, get it done, and then thing "hey, should I pack this as a library or what?", and then you see that this has already been done for your.
2019-10-29T01:19:14Z lockywolf: *you
2019-10-29T01:21:22Z lockywolf: Still, several childish bugs I found in it, indicate that noone has ever tried anything serious in it.
2019-10-29T01:22:36Z lockywolf: Like, (expt 2 14.0) was producing and infinite loop.
2019-10-29T01:24:31Z lockywolf: *an
2019-10-29T01:26:08Z lockywolf: It is cool to have a scheme which implements all of r7rs-red.
2019-10-29T01:37:31Z dgtlcmo: does anyone have a symbolics space cadet or knight SAIL lisp machine keyboard?
2019-10-29T01:47:42Z erkin: Here? Probably not.
2019-10-29T01:47:51Z erkin: I know someone who owns a few though.
2019-10-29T01:48:29Z erkin: If you need help with the controller firmware, he's printing a board to replace the controller but I forgot which model it's for.
2019-10-29T01:49:47Z erkin: Ah, it's for LMI Lambda.
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2019-10-29T03:26:02Z lockywolf_: is there a need in an srfi on simplified process control?
2019-10-29T03:58:55Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: What's your idea?
2019-10-29T04:04:36Z lockywolf_: Well, there is a very thin layer of basically one procedure running a process synchronously and reading the output, as shipped with pstk, which gets defined differently, but similarly in a rather long cond-expand.
2019-10-29T04:05:07Z lockywolf_: A rough equivalent of the system() function in stdlib.h
2019-10-29T04:07:31Z lockywolf_: it works on Windows and posix
2019-10-29T04:07:39Z lockywolf_: not sure about plan9 though
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2019-10-29T04:26:12Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: If it's just going to run the process synchronously and collect the output, it doesn't seem like there's much "process control" going on.  Is there some abstraction for, say, coroutines?
2019-10-29T04:27:22Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: scsh has a very similar set of run/X procedures, e.g. run/sexp.
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2019-10-29T04:40:22Z lockywolf_: I am not good enough with scheme to design this.
2019-10-29T04:41:17Z lockywolf_: But I probably can study previous attempts on running processes synchronously and compile them into a decent document.
2019-10-29T04:42:06Z lockywolf_: This could make the picture language part of sicp portable.
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2019-10-29T05:20:42Z jcowan: lockywolf_: Take a look at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ProcessesCowan.md and try simplifying it.
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2019-10-29T05:23:26Z lockywolf_: jcowan, got it
2019-10-29T05:27:22Z amz3: do you think bsd socket should be port?
2019-10-29T05:28:11Z amz3: I mean yes they are ports at least in guile, they have some operation, like accept that does not map cleanly to port interface.
2019-10-29T05:28:43Z amz3: I mean yes they are ports at least in guile. They have some operation, like `accept` that does not map cleanly to port interface.
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2019-10-29T05:31:44Z amz3: anway, back to srfi-167 and 168.
2019-10-29T05:31:56Z amz3: anyway...
2019-10-29T05:33:17Z amz3: except if one consider that ports can output something else than bytevector or char (or string)
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2019-10-29T05:50:16Z jcowan: In SRFI 106, TCP sockets are not ports, but you can extract an input port and an output port from them.
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2019-10-29T06:14:42Z lockywolf_: why was srfi-20 withdrawn?
2019-10-29T06:18:37Z amz3: tx John,
2019-10-29T06:19:28Z jcowan: Basically, four people posted comments, see https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-20/dates/2000/04/
2019-10-29T06:19:39Z jcowan: and 13 months passed with no response from the author
2019-10-29T06:19:41Z jcowan: so that was that.
2019-10-29T06:19:44Z amz3: I just pushed the (hopefully) final commits of srfi-167 and srfi-168 at https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/pull/587
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2019-10-29T06:24:39Z amz3: is there any public conversation or paper on the merits of OO systems in Scheme? arguments and stuff.
2019-10-29T06:26:19Z amz3: rudybot: what do you think of Object-Oriented Programming?
2019-10-29T06:26:25Z rudybot: amz3: right, but your book is wrong. so, hardly matters what you think, it's simply incorrect. I recommend that you try reading some one esles book, perhaps the people who created small talk, or C++ or eieio or... anyways, why don't you go find out what object oriented programming is and update your book.
2019-10-29T06:26:44Z amz3: oh!
2019-10-29T06:27:06Z amz3: rudybot: OOP?
2019-10-29T06:27:07Z rudybot: amz3: anyone see this? <http://www.cs.aau.dk/~normark/scheme-oop/scheme-oop.pdf>
2019-10-29T06:27:18Z lockywolf_: Which book does rudybot mean?
2019-10-29T06:28:33Z lockywolf_: LiSP?
2019-10-29T06:29:42Z lockywolf_: rudybot, help
2019-10-29T06:29:42Z rudybot: lockywolf_: bug <more> ..., fom <more> ..., hopeless <more> ..., falsy <more> ..., bad-eval <more> ..., later "tell" <recipient> <message> ..., help [<what>], version, quote, source, url, g <query> ..., sentientp, seen <nick> <more> ..., where's <nick> <more> ..., uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., snotback, botsnack, init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>, swat <victim>
2019-10-29T06:29:51Z la_zaifir: Possibly any one of thousands of brain-damaged "magic of OOP!" books.
2019-10-29T06:33:20Z lockywolf_: apparently its author appeared on this channel
2019-10-29T06:33:41Z lockywolf_: rudybot, help init
2019-10-29T06:33:41Z rudybot: lockywolf_: init [<lang>]: initialize a sandbox, <lang> can be 'r5rs, 'scheme, 'scheme/base, etc
2019-10-29T06:34:02Z lockywolf_: rudybot, init c#
2019-10-29T06:34:02Z rudybot: lockywolf_: error: make-evaluator: bad language spec: 'c#
2019-10-29T06:34:07Z lockywolf_: :(
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2019-10-29T06:36:38Z la_zaifir: Good, we want none of that here.
2019-10-29T06:36:43Z la_zaifir: rudybot: botsnack
2019-10-29T06:36:43Z rudybot: yay!
2019-10-29T06:37:00Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2019-10-29T06:37:07Z lockywolf_: rudybot, init r2rs
2019-10-29T06:37:07Z rudybot: lockywolf_: error: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found <NEWLINE>   for module path: r2rs <NEWLINE>   collection: "r2rs" <NEWLINE>   in collection directories: <NEWLINE>    /mnt2/racket-6.9/collects <NEWLINE>    ... [159 additional linked and package directories]
2019-10-29T06:37:27Z lockywolf_: rudybot, init racket/lazy
2019-10-29T06:37:27Z rudybot: lockywolf_: error: default-load-handler: cannot open module file <NEWLINE>   module path: racket/lazy <NEWLINE>   path: /mnt2/racket-6.9/collects/racket/lazy.rkt <NEWLINE>   system error: No such file or directory; errno=2
2019-10-29T06:41:58Z lockywolf_: rudybot, source
2019-10-29T06:41:58Z rudybot: lockywolf_: git clone git://github.com/offby1/rudybot.git
2019-10-29T06:42:19Z lockywolf_: rudybot, help t8
2019-10-29T06:42:19Z rudybot: lockywolf_: t8 <from> <to> <text> ...: translate TEXT from FROM to TO
2019-10-29T06:42:54Z lockywolf_: rudybot, help t8 lisp scheme (defun add (a b) (+ a b))
2019-10-29T06:42:55Z rudybot: lockywolf_: expecting: help [<what>]
2019-10-29T06:42:58Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: You may want to do this in a query with rudybot.
2019-10-29T06:43:05Z lockywolf_: rudybot, t8 lisp scheme (defun add (a b) (+ a b))
2019-10-29T06:43:05Z rudybot: lockywolf_: Invalid Value
2019-10-29T06:43:49Z lockywolf_: la_zaifir, in a "private chat"?
2019-10-29T06:44:32Z la_zaifir: Sure.
2019-10-29T06:44:56Z la_zaifir: User-to-user privmsg, whatever the correct IRC term is.
2019-10-29T06:45:14Z lockywolf_: What do you mean by "query"?
2019-10-29T06:46:09Z la_zaifir: Many IRC clients (e.g. Irssi) display "staring query with <user>" when you start chatting with another IRC user.
2019-10-29T06:46:25Z lockywolf_: never thought I could send private messages to a bot
2019-10-29T06:48:03Z la_zaifir: No idea where that use of "query" comes from.  The term isn't used that way in RFC 1459.
2019-10-29T06:50:58Z lockywolf_: rudybot, falsy
2019-10-29T06:50:58Z rudybot: lockywolf_: https://plus.google.com/+ShriramKrishnamurthi/posts/4qvvKYC1R8Y
2019-10-29T06:51:03Z lockywolf_: this link is broken
2019-10-29T06:53:03Z lockywolf_: where do I report this?
2019-10-29T06:53:20Z amz3: /dev/null
2019-10-29T06:53:39Z amz3: rudybot: what is falsy?
2019-10-29T06:53:39Z rudybot: amz3: nil is the only falsy thing, so if that's what you want to check for you can just use (if (car x) (message "it's not nil!") (message "it's nil :("))
2019-10-29T06:54:13Z amz3: oh rudybot you make many mistakes. Your scheme is not what it used to be.
2019-10-29T06:54:29Z amz3: rudybot: what is scheme?
2019-10-29T06:54:29Z rudybot: amz3: I think what happened with guile is people used it and concluded, not unfairly, that it was a rubbish implementation of scheme
2019-10-29T06:54:48Z amz3: ah rudybot is in a good mood today
2019-10-29T06:55:38Z amz3: lockywolf_: you can only fix the errors in rudybot by improving signal / noise ratio on the channel :)
2019-10-29T06:58:28Z lockywolf_: rudybot, some ransom stuff
2019-10-29T06:58:30Z rudybot: lockywolf_: saw "Ransom" with the future Mrs Offby1
2019-10-29T06:58:59Z lockywolf_: amz3, 'falsy' is not an "otherwise" command
2019-10-29T06:59:10Z lockywolf_: it appears in rudybot help
2019-10-29T06:59:39Z lockywolf_: rudybot, hopeless
2019-10-29T06:59:39Z rudybot: lockywolf_: https://gist.github.com/samth/3083053
2019-10-29T06:59:42Z lockywolf_: rudybot, hopeless
2019-10-29T06:59:42Z rudybot: lockywolf_: https://gist.github.com/samth/3083053
2019-10-29T07:05:18Z amz3: jcowan: SRFI-106 specify TCP socket, I need UDP
2019-10-29T07:05:32Z amz3: btw the max size of an UDP packet is NOT 1Mb, but more like 65Kb
2019-10-29T07:06:02Z jcowan: I have a pre-SRFI for that: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/DatagramChannelsCowan.md
2019-10-29T07:06:05Z amz3: nobody invented something better than bsd sockets in 60years?
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2019-10-29T07:08:55Z lockywolf_: amz3, posix sockets?
2019-10-29T07:08:57Z amz3: actually bsd sockets are 37 years old.
2019-10-29T07:09:06Z amz3: lockywolf_: they are the same.
2019-10-29T07:09:12Z amz3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_sockets
2019-10-29T07:09:41Z lockywolf_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STREAMS
2019-10-29T07:09:43Z jcowan: Well, 36 years.  Plan 9 has something better, but nobody else uses it.
2019-10-29T07:09:54Z lockywolf_: sorry, I meant streams
2019-10-29T07:10:27Z jcowan: ah
2019-10-29T07:12:45Z amz3 look at plan 9 (again)
2019-10-29T07:12:53Z amz3: lockywolf_: I am confused? streams?
2019-10-29T07:13:32Z erkin: amz3: Solaris doors
2019-10-29T07:14:10Z erkin: Someone implemented it for Linux ages ago but nobody used it.
2019-10-29T07:14:59Z erkin: We wouldn't've needed to deal with retrofitted IPC like D-Bus if we had doors.
2019-10-29T07:15:12Z lockywolf_: amz3, forget about it. it was an alternative to sockets in unix v8 (afair), but it's considered obsolete
2019-10-29T07:15:13Z erkin: Well, for the most part at least.
2019-10-29T07:17:52Z lockywolf_: I said it as a joke
2019-10-29T07:20:43Z amz3: I have to admit I have something against hierarchy. But still, I will read on 9P
2019-10-29T07:24:14Z amz3: http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/5/intro
2019-10-29T07:40:26Z amz3: mind the fact that I did not mention rdf or triplestore, until now.
2019-10-29T07:41:18Z amz3: I think, like lists, trees have some cognitive beauty compared to graphs that are not trees.
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2019-10-29T07:45:40Z erkin: Nested lists are identical to trees.
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2019-10-29T08:52:43Z mdhughes: Mach ports are pretty good, high speed, but you know, you need a NeXT or Mac to use them.
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2019-10-29T09:32:08Z erkin: Oh and HURD has translators.
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2019-10-29T22:18:43Z because[m]: Lol. The one time there is plan 9 discussion and I miss it.
2019-10-29T22:24:54Z because[m]: There are some small lisp implementations written in go that run. And one r7rs fork written in C that I ported (owl) but I'm not really sure if things like that matter when there's no community around a given fork. And I'm still just learning scheme...
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2019-10-29T23:18:49Z jcowan: because[m] There's no real community around Owl either, I don't think.
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2019-10-29T23:29:49Z because[m]: I agree. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. I did it before I knew chibi ran on plan 9.
2019-10-29T23:35:11Z jcowan: Well, two Schemes are better than one, although perhaps 75 is a tad excessive.
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2019-10-29T23:41:57Z because[m]: Also when I said fork I was thinking of an implementation that is not entirely standards compliant. Chibi I believe only wants compliance but owl explicitly states that it is......a functional dialect of an r7rs subset.
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2019-10-29T23:43:59Z because[m]: Not trying to critique that scheme as much as I'm saying since plan 9 is already lacking in software maybe it's not in my best interest to devote time to such a specific fork. I'll shut
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2019-10-30T01:53:34Z erkin: because[m]: Scheme 9 from Empty Space, Reimagined is your best bet.
2019-10-30T01:53:57Z erkin: It's R4RS but it's especially made to be portable.
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2019-10-30T05:38:05Z lockywolf_: In which order are the arguments to a syntax-rules macro evaluated?
2019-10-30T05:38:53Z lockywolf_: Ahh, forget about it...
2019-10-30T05:46:31Z lockywolf_: What does the pasted code print on your machines? http://paste.debian.net/1111908
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2019-10-30T07:43:00Z lockywolf_: Is there way to undefine a variable?
2019-10-30T07:43:47Z lockywolf_: makunbound, or something?
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2019-10-30T07:48:41Z amz3: no
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2019-10-30T09:36:55Z amz3: am i the only one to think keyword argument is evil?
2019-10-30T09:43:21Z mario-goulart: I don't think it's "evil" but in my experience it can be dangerous if not checked by the compiler.
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2019-10-30T10:15:10Z amz3: mario-goulart: how so?
2019-10-30T10:16:00Z amz3: the thing is that most mainstream language have keyword arguments, and many schemes do. It is very strange for me to be against the crowd that much.
2019-10-30T10:16:57Z amz3: to me keyword arguments look like arguments that are boolean, they should not be, and instead of boolean arguments one should create another procedure.
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2019-10-30T10:21:36Z mario-goulart: I find them useful for extending API's while still keeping them backward-compatible.  They also provide a way to specify default values, which I find useful.  OTOH, they can be dangerous if the compiler doesn't check the keyword parameters. E.g., (define (foo #!key quux) ...) (foo qux: 42).  The typo in the keyword parameter will go unnoticed if not checked by the compiler.
2019-10-30T10:22:31Z mario-goulart: Coincidently, the latest bug report I received was related to that. :-)
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2019-10-30T12:48:48Z jcowan: mario-goulart: That will blow up in CL at least
2019-10-30T12:49:32Z jcowan: If you want it to work, you have to specify &allow-other-keys in the lambda list.
2019-10-30T12:51:56Z mario-goulart: That's nice.
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2019-10-30T13:19:35Z mario-goulart: jcowan: devil's advocate question: what if you have a typo in &allow-other-keys? :-)
2019-10-30T13:19:50Z jcowan: hmmm
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2019-10-30T14:08:41Z jcowan: mario-goulart: apparently misspelled lambda keywords are ordinary identifiers in CL
2019-10-30T14:09:12Z jcowan: indeed, even correctly spelled ones are perfectly good identifiers in other contexts: (let ((&optional 32)) &optional) => 32, for example.
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2019-10-30T15:05:07Z brendyyn: http://wiki.call-cc.org/ is dead atm ;(
2019-10-30T15:05:30Z wasamasa: not for me
2019-10-30T15:05:48Z wasamasa: https://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/wiki.call-cc.org
2019-10-30T15:06:09Z brendyyn: that site told me its also down
2019-10-30T15:06:19Z f-a wonders which scheme is GIMP sporting
2019-10-30T15:06:40Z brendyyn: tinyscheme?
2019-10-30T15:07:09Z gnomon: A long time ago it was TinyScheme, but I think they swapped that out for Guile at some point.
2019-10-30T15:07:26Z f-a: maybe an apt-cache show will be revealing
2019-10-30T15:08:38Z gnomon: My mistake: prior to 2007 it was SIOD (Scheme In One Defun), after that they switched to TinyScheme.  (cf. https://www.gimp.org/docs/script-fu-update.html )
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2019-10-30T15:09:27Z brendyyn: some people suggested switching to guile and they said sure, just make the patches and take care of maintaining it, no worries mate.
2019-10-30T15:09:45Z f-a_: did they switch in the end?
2019-10-30T15:10:23Z wasamasa: it's still tinyscheme
2019-10-30T15:11:00Z gnomon: brendyyn, ell oh ell
2019-10-30T15:11:11Z wasamasa: just open it from filters > script-fu > console
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2019-10-30T15:12:20Z f-a_: wasamasa: what's the form to display version?
2019-10-30T15:12:27Z f-a_: oh
2019-10-30T15:12:33Z f-a_: welcome to tinyscheme, first line
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2019-10-30T15:12:40Z f-a_ needs copious amount of coffee
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2019-10-30T15:14:42Z gnomon: Don't we all.
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2019-10-30T15:20:00Z lockywolf: I use keyword arguments all the time, although not in scheme
2019-10-30T15:20:43Z lockywolf: it is _the_ only way to ensure that colleagues don't come to me asking "why doesn't this work?"
2019-10-30T15:21:31Z lockywolf: Actually I have no arguments other than keyword arguments on public interfaces.
2019-10-30T15:24:08Z lockywolf: (draw-point x y) is a too hard interface, proven.
2019-10-30T15:25:17Z wasamasa: it's good to know I won't be out of work any soon :>
2019-10-30T15:25:47Z lockywolf: It has to be (draw-point :horizontal-offset-to-the-right-in-pixels 10 :vertical-offset-down-in-pixels 25)
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2019-10-30T15:27:40Z lockywolf: Also, the error message as (error "parameter not set: parameter") doesn't work at all. It has to be (error "Please, set parameter parameter by using method f")
2019-10-30T15:28:31Z wasamasa: wow
2019-10-30T15:28:41Z wasamasa: how do these people cope with other APIs than their own?
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2019-10-30T15:29:56Z lockywolf: They reimplement them.
2019-10-30T15:30:57Z wasamasa: rudybot: code reuse is a lie
2019-10-30T15:31:03Z rudybot: wasamasa: but at the same time, its stuff i may need to reuse pretty soon....  so the ideal thing would be if a macro could stand as the skeleton for a script, but you cant just convert stuff that way , can you?
2019-10-30T15:31:30Z lockywolf: well, in Scheme code reuse is a lie...
2019-10-30T15:33:50Z wasamasa: I'm not sure I can agree with that
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2019-10-30T15:34:06Z wasamasa: you gave an example of people reinventing an API because they're too stupid to use it
2019-10-30T15:34:29Z wasamasa: whereas with scheme code it can be as simple as (include "whatever.scm") after defining some glue procedures
2019-10-30T15:34:44Z wasamasa: that's how seemingly everything uses ssax for their xml needs
2019-10-30T15:36:13Z lockywolf: https://ww2.mathworks.cn/help/matlab/ref/mexception.addcorrection.html?lang=en
2019-10-30T15:37:17Z lockywolf: well, defining some glue procedures is a deceptively easy solution
2019-10-30T15:37:25Z wasamasa: if you're writing matlab, you're screwed in any case
2019-10-30T15:38:12Z lockywolf:  ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
2019-10-30T15:38:59Z lockywolf: Nevertheless, "corrections" reduce the pain.
2019-10-30T15:40:02Z lockywolf: Code reuse requires empathy. Physicists often have even less empathy than programmers.
2019-10-30T15:42:06Z la_zaifir: GIMP's use of Scheme is pretty incompetent.  I imagine they'd like to switch to Python.
2019-10-30T15:42:22Z lockywolf: I think they already have some support for Python
2019-10-30T15:42:28Z la_zaifir: Exactly.
2019-10-30T15:44:10Z lockywolf: GIMP 2.10.14 has two consoles. Python and TinyScheme
2019-10-30T15:44:24Z la_zaifir: I mean, GIMP procedures seriously return numeric constants TRUE and FALSE instead of Scheme booleans, and they also wrap everything in useless lists.
2019-10-30T15:45:25Z jcowan: Feh.
2019-10-30T15:46:02Z lockywolf: There is an srfi planned on environments, right?
2019-10-30T15:46:07Z jcowan: TinyScheme got an undeserved bad rep already thanks to that spammer, and now even the Good Guys are using it badly
2019-10-30T15:46:44Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/EnvironmentsMIT.md
2019-10-30T15:46:57Z jcowan: although it's diverged from actual MIT Scheme a bit to accommodate R7RS.
2019-10-30T15:47:08Z la_zaifir: TinyScheme is impressive in its tinyness, though the lack of hygienic macros hurts.
2019-10-30T15:48:29Z jcowan: Though Chibi can be made pretty tiny with enough config options
2019-10-30T15:48:43Z jcowan: and is still much faster because bytecode.
2019-10-30T15:48:47Z lockywolf: I am looking at the available environment visualizers, and they seem to reimplement a lot of scheme on top of scheme in order to collect the definition information
2019-10-30T15:49:13Z jcowan: Inevitably so
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2019-10-30T15:49:44Z jcowan: note that the pre-SRFI is solely about global environments (which R5RS already has), not about lexically scoped environments
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2019-10-30T15:53:52Z jcowan: I am also wondering how much of the trouble kids have in learning mathematical notation is due to its bottom-up orientation: do the stuff within parens first, as opposed to do what comes first first.  The trouble with reverse Polish as an implementation of the latter is that human beings' recursion stack has a fixed size of 3.
2019-10-30T15:55:04Z lockywolf: SICP is all top-down.
2019-10-30T15:55:47Z lockywolf: "Let us define the important high level things first and leave the pissant unimportant details as an exercise to the reader"
2019-10-30T15:56:15Z jcowan: "A man that a woman that a child that a bird saw knows loves vegetables" is parseable but the stack underflows prematurely when "loves" is processed.
2019-10-30T15:57:34Z lockywolf: I can't parse it.
2019-10-30T15:57:42Z lockywolf: But English is not my native tongue.
2019-10-30T15:58:17Z lockywolf: Do you really not need a comma after "saw"?
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2019-10-30T15:58:36Z wasamasa: the unimportant details happen to be unimportant for teaching CS students basic concepts
2019-10-30T15:58:43Z wasamasa: who would have thought
2019-10-30T15:59:08Z lockywolf: I would disagree.
2019-10-30T16:00:06Z lockywolf: Not explaining the basic parts leaves holes in the general picture.
2019-10-30T16:01:39Z lockywolf: No matter how beautiful is the carpet, if it has holes, it is useless.
2019-10-30T16:01:55Z jcowan: We can process the tail recursive "This is the house that Jack built" with no problems, but the recursive German version is impossible
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2019-10-30T16:05:32Z brendyyn: its good to think about these things because arguments in praise of lisp's syntax tend to describe how it is better for a computer rather than a human brain
2019-10-30T16:08:05Z lockywolf: I remember the first class on programming, in high school, where the course started with a "hello world" in C, using printf. And it was one of the most confusing classes ever. We were, supposedly, using the most basic low level language out there, but didn't need to explicitly indicate neither the position on screen, not the shape of the letters..
2019-10-30T16:08:09Z lockywolf: *nor
2019-10-30T16:08:56Z lockywolf: I remember being completely startled at that.
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2019-10-30T16:10:51Z amz3: lockywolf: re keyword arguments: foo=bar document the code indeed, but in that case keyword argument should be the only thing possible and static typing would also be scheme. I argue that with a proper use of small procedures on can avoid the need for keywords. Simple procedures that do one thing well, instead of magic dispatch strategy based on named arguments.
2019-10-30T16:12:11Z amz3: every C course should start with a full read of harfbuzz's code.
2019-10-30T16:12:46Z amz3: my bad, harfbuzz is c++ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarfBuzz
2019-10-30T16:13:12Z lockywolf: every C course should start with whatever the kind need to understand it
2019-10-30T16:13:17Z lockywolf: *the kids
2019-10-30T16:14:58Z lockywolf: not harfbuzz probably, but implementing the ascii table in bitmaps would actually make sense
2019-10-30T16:15:36Z amz3: maybe. (I am  more interested in the keyword args convo)
2019-10-30T16:16:04Z wasamasa: lockywolf: well, it didn't do that after all, just printing to a file descriptor
2019-10-30T16:16:38Z wasamasa: you can do the same thing with relatively little effort in machine code
2019-10-30T16:18:32Z lockywolf: it did that eventually, indirectly
2019-10-30T16:20:03Z wasamasa: I mean, if you're appealing to being correct, you better do it properly and point at the chain involved between the C program and actual rendering on the screen
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2019-10-30T16:22:08Z lockywolf: amz3, I can live with a language with no kwargs. kwargs can be implemented as a procedure that parses . rest
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2019-10-30T16:23:31Z amz3: that is one of the reason, I am in favor of chibi's let-keywords. And keep keywords a last resort, quick and hack-ish solution.
2019-10-30T16:26:05Z lockywolf: wasamasa, I don't know how to do it properly. I can only tell that for me personally, having holes in the picture is worse than not having a picture at all. Perhaps, the correct introductory level of explanation depends on the assumptions that the pupils have about computing in their heads, and that needs to be measured every time
2019-10-30T16:26:50Z wasamasa: I have just the right device for that: https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1177357178975457285
2019-10-30T16:30:11Z amz3: oh
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2019-10-30T16:36:24Z la_zaifir: lockywolf_: https://abstrusegoose.com/474  Fairly on-target.
2019-10-30T16:44:27Z amz3: :)
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2019-10-30T16:56:50Z pjb: lockywolf_: letters are symbols. The glyph used to represent then does not matter at all.  This is not something that is stored in the computer, but in the terminals!  For example, a braille display would show those dots: ⠉⠎⠔ ⠈⠅⠌⠌⠏⠂⠺⠏⠒⠌⠄⠆ when a teletype would print those glyphs: int hello,world;
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2019-10-30T17:01:15Z pjb: lockywolf_: furthermore, the programming languages are in general specified in terms of character, not in terms of their coding.  C uses the letter A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z, not the codes 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 (or any other code).  Same for CL, and schemes.
2019-10-30T17:01:55Z pjb: lockywolf_: therefore what you are requesting is clearly totally out of scope of a course on a programming languafge.
2019-10-30T17:12:34Z pjb: lockywolf_: also, have a look at what Douglas Hofstadter has written about alphabets and AI.
2019-10-30T17:13:18Z pjb: lockywolf_: eg. https://web.stanford.edu/group/SHR/4-2/text/hofstadter.html
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2019-10-30T17:16:49Z la_zaifir: "The trick to understanding complicated things is to know what to ignore." --Sussman  You've got to start somewhere in a programming course.  Preferably not at the level of having to invent the logic gate.
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2019-10-30T17:22:23Z pjb: or quantum mechanics.
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2019-10-30T18:10:41Z jcowan: "Cash registers don't compute, they just grind their gears.  But then again, they don't actually grind their gears, they just obey the laws of physics."
2019-10-30T18:11:41Z jcowan: In My Favorite Toy Language, all arguments will be keywords, except that if the keywords are "left" and "right" or just "right", the procedure name can be used as a binary or unary operator respectively.
2019-10-30T18:23:03Z vyzo: cla
2019-10-30T18:33:06Z amz3: cla?
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2019-10-30T18:59:55Z mdhughes: Just go back to 6502 assembly, LDX 0, LDY VIDMEM, LDA 40, STA (Y,X), LDA 69, ...
2019-10-30T19:05:38Z jcowan: Also, the list of non-identifier operators is fixed and has fixed priority, though you can add new (multi)methods to them, and all identifier binary ops have equal and lowest priority.  That way parsing doesn't depend on higher-level things.
2019-10-30T19:06:07Z jcowan: An Algol 68 Classic compiler had to read the source *four times* to even parse it.
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2019-10-30T19:15:23Z vyzo: sorry, mistyped
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2019-10-31T01:20:11Z lockywolf__: pjb, you are speaking as a someone who already knows programming. Children who saw an IDE first time in their life back then had a different pereception.
2019-10-31T01:21:17Z lockywolf__: Debunking many misconceptions is also a part of a teacher's work.
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2019-10-31T01:21:56Z pjb: lockywolf__: children learn reading before they learn programming…
2019-10-31T01:22:27Z lockywolf__: An use smartphone even earlier nowadays
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2019-10-31T01:25:19Z lockywolf__: I remember two misconceptions being very popular back when I was a kid. (1) All programming languages are equivalent in what you can do with them; choosing one is a matter of aesthetics and partisanship, not efficiency. (2) Windows(tm) is a program, therefore after a course in C we should be able to write our own Windows (albeit a basic one, perhaps with only basic mouse support, not such a difficult thing as a keyboard).
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2019-10-31T01:26:40Z lockywolf__: I may be able to remember (or false-memory remember) some other misconceptions.
2019-10-31T01:27:44Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: (1) is right, modulo the efficiency thing.
2019-10-31T01:27:50Z jcowan: lockywolf__: "The teacher, as has been recognized at least since Plato’s Meno, is not primarily someone who knows instructing someone who does not know. He is rather someone who attempts to re-create the subject in the student’s mind, and his strategy in doing this is first of all to get the student to recognize what he already potentially knows, which includes breaking up the powers of repression in his mind that
2019-10-31T01:27:50Z jcowan: keep him from knowing what he knows. That is why it is the teacher, rather than the student, who asks most of the questions."  —Northrop Frye
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2019-10-31T01:28:05Z lockywolf__: https://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2019/10/differentiation-and-integration.html
2019-10-31T01:28:22Z lockywolf__: I asked more questions than the teacher did.
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2019-10-31T01:28:57Z jcowan: People on this channel weren't typical students.
2019-10-31T01:29:38Z lockywolf__: I guess
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2019-10-31T01:51:09Z lockywolf_: Is there a convenient way of drawing environments?
2019-10-31T01:51:57Z lockywolf_: Maybe not automagically.
2019-10-31T01:52:09Z lockywolf_: Say, a set of templates for TikZ
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2019-10-31T03:49:41Z lockywolf__: jcowan, about https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/EnvironmentsMIT.md
2019-10-31T03:51:10Z jcowan pongs
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2019-10-31T04:17:31Z lockywolf__: Is there any reason why (current-environment) is not included?
2019-10-31T04:17:55Z lockywolf__: sorry, got distracted by a petty thing called work
2019-10-31T04:17:57Z lockywolf__: :(
2019-10-31T04:18:01Z erkin: Happens.
2019-10-31T04:19:10Z lockywolf__: chibi supports (current-environment)
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2019-10-31T04:48:02Z lockywolf_: jcowan, why is (interaction-environment) called a "constructor"? Maybe a "query" would be a better name? It is not creating a fresh environment, after all, just returns an object pointing to an already existing environment.
2019-10-31T05:05:39Z amz3: hey lockywolf_
2019-10-31T05:05:50Z amz3: you did good work on srfi dead links
2019-10-31T05:07:07Z amz3: on an unrelated note: I am looking for some people that want to assemble to build a google inbox clone (mail client)
2019-10-31T05:07:31Z amz3: (I do not forget the peer-to-peer thing, but everyday I am become more sad with gmail)
2019-10-31T05:07:44Z amz3: (I do not forget the peer-to-peer thing, but everyday I am become more sad *because of* gmail)
2019-10-31T05:10:36Z lockywolf_: amz3, thanks, although that's not even scratched the surface
2019-10-31T05:11:24Z amz3: my pet peeve regarding srfi process is the absence of CI
2019-10-31T05:11:31Z amz3: lockywolf_: what do you mean?
2019-10-31T05:12:03Z lockywolf_: I mean, there are still a lot of dead links all over srfis
2019-10-31T05:12:13Z amz3: ok
2019-10-31T05:12:40Z amz3: lockywolf_: one could simply replace all links with waybackmachine ?
2019-10-31T05:13:29Z lockywolf_: I suggested that to Arthur, but the wayback machine is not guaranteed to have all of them.
2019-10-31T05:13:53Z lockywolf_: Also, wayback machine links scare people.
2019-10-31T05:14:10Z amz3: oh
2019-10-31T05:14:54Z amz3: also unrelated: do you think a language port must retain the original copyright (say from javascript to scheme)?
2019-10-31T05:17:01Z amz3: tricky question.
2019-10-31T05:17:54Z lockywolf_: question to me or to everyone?
2019-10-31T05:18:59Z amz3: everyone.
2019-10-31T05:19:06Z lockywolf_: I believe that the copyright idea in its entirety is bullshit, although it's certainly very good to keep references to the ancestors of the information in the information itself.
2019-10-31T05:20:07Z amz3: the thing is the work I want to port to scheme is based on a standard, and the original implementation in javascript has is BSD-like (or MIT) with a odd clause...
2019-10-31T05:21:31Z lockywolf_: "Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer." ?
2019-10-31T05:23:27Z lockywolf_: Or the advertisement clause?
2019-10-31T05:23:56Z amz3: https://github.com/facebook/yoga/blob/486b9a84bf594f96184c69d3ed0f6efcaa4344ed/PATENTS
2019-10-31T05:24:01Z amz3: very odd
2019-10-31T05:25:20Z amz3: also the license changed to True MIT in latest release.
2019-10-31T05:27:39Z erkin: True MIT as in Expat licence or X11 licence?
2019-10-31T05:27:56Z lockywolf_: if it has changed, why do you bother?
2019-10-31T05:28:54Z amz3: https://github.com/facebook/yoga/blob/master/LICENSE
2019-10-31T05:29:08Z amz3: I do not know Expat and X11 license
2019-10-31T05:30:15Z amz3: I bother, because the code changed a lot before the LICENSE was changed.
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2019-10-31T05:33:55Z amz3: I asked the question on #gnu, I was said (via a link to gnu.org) that language port is considered a translation and as such requires the permission of the original owner of the copyright.
2019-10-31T05:34:39Z amz3: I will post an issue in the project.
2019-10-31T05:34:46Z amz3: tx
2019-10-31T05:35:04Z amz3: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TranslateCode
2019-10-31T05:38:37Z erkin: Clean-room rewrites dodge this issue... mostly?
2019-10-31T05:40:00Z amz3: yeah, but it is more work :)
2019-10-31T05:40:47Z amz3: I would prefer not to mention facebook at all, honestly.
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2019-10-31T05:46:59Z amz3: the thing is that the flexbox algorithm is the most flexible layout algorithm around the Internet.
2019-10-31T05:47:48Z amz3: it allows to create all other css layouts preceding it, but not the one that after it like grid layout or constraints based layouts (e.g. cassowary)
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2019-10-31T06:10:15Z lockywolf_: Still, does anyone know an efficient way of drawing environments?
2019-10-31T06:10:27Z lockywolf_: without doing it in Inkscape manually
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2019-10-31T13:26:01Z amz3: does someone has good documentation (outside the code) about how git does makes sure, nobody can tamper with the code that is hosted?
2019-10-31T13:26:06Z amz3: I think it rely in merkel trees.
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2019-10-31T15:19:22Z Riastradh: amz3: A pointer to an object in the git data structure is the SHA-1 hash of the object.  You can use a known hash to look up an object, and then recompute the hash to verify it.
2019-10-31T15:20:04Z Riastradh: Of course, the association between branch names and the commits they point to is mutable and not authenticated in any way; the system relies on you to have the correct root pointers.
2019-10-31T15:20:50Z Riastradh: The system also relies on an adversary being unable to fool you into accepting an object under their control, which they could have chosen to collide under SHA-1 with an evil object, which they can later quietly substitute for the good object.
2019-10-31T15:21:18Z Riastradh: (It was a mistake for Git to use SHA-1.  Shoulda used SHA-256 from the start, but Linus went against the advice of cryptographers in choosing SHA-1.)
2019-10-31T15:21:22Z gnomon: +1
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2019-10-31T15:22:04Z gnomon: There is also a very, very good examination of _exactly_ what GPG signatures add to git's data model over at https://grimoire.ca/git/detached-sigs , written by a friend of mine.  Short story: it's not _not_ useful but it doesn't add what we think it adds.
2019-10-31T15:22:33Z jcowan: Perhaps he chose SHA-1 for performance reasons?  We know that performance was one of the primary reasons for git to exist at all.
2019-10-31T15:22:52Z Riastradh: (and I don't just mean that with hindsight; from what I recall, Linus very publicly went on a typical Linus rant about how collision attacks are not relevant to Git, mainly because he's confused)
2019-10-31T15:23:22Z gnomon: The good news is that since about... 2.18, I think?  ...git doesn't actually use SHA-1 anymore, it uses a modified SHA-1 implementation that specifically recognizes the known SHA-1 collisions and computes around them.  (It's only a mitigant.)
2019-10-31T15:23:29Z gnomon: yeah
2019-10-31T15:23:42Z gnomon: I remember that rant.  Printed it out at $OFFICE just last week, actually.
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2019-10-31T15:24:11Z jcowan: All security measures save one-time encryption are only mitigants, and with 1TE the cure is worse than the disease for anything but international spies
2019-10-31T15:24:26Z jcowan: gnomon: URL handy?
2019-10-31T15:24:30Z gnomon: Also, not pointing fingers, but Fossil (drh) went from "SHA-1 is compromised" to "oh we switched to SHA-256 with a forward- and reverse-migration path worked out and tested" in about a week and a half
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2019-10-31T15:24:45Z gnomon: jcowan, not on the machine I'm currently using, but I'll dig it up and get it over to you.
2019-10-31T15:24:56Z jcowan: ta
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2019-10-31T15:25:47Z Riastradh: gnomon: Yes, but that's only because drh is a competent engineer who actually listens to people without abusing them until they go away.  I mean, that's because nobody uses fossil.
2019-10-31T15:28:09Z gnomon: jcowan, https://public-inbox.org/git/Pine.LNX.4.58.0504291221250.18901@ppc970.osdl.org/
2019-10-31T15:28:31Z gnomon: jcowan, also https://lwn.net/Articles/715716/ , https://lwn.net/Articles/715621/
2019-10-31T15:28:45Z gnomon: But that mailing list post (originally on gmane, *sniff*)
2019-10-31T15:28:49Z gnomon: Riastradh, ZING
2019-10-31T15:29:12Z Riastradh: jcowan: There's a huge qualitative difference between `we've _known_ since 2004 that SHA-1 fails to live up to its security advertisements (which were not great to begin with)' and `the best known attack on SHA-256 costs 2^128 energy'.
2019-10-31T15:29:47Z gnomon: Riastradh, further to your point, a very good friend of mine had a long conversation with drh about codes of conduct.  The outcome was that drh listened carefully, learned about something he didn't previously know, changed his mind, and made that change quite public.
2019-10-31T15:29:55Z amz3: git stores key-value in a database called objects. an object can be a blob (file) or a tree. The root of a tree is a commit. also there is the history directed-acyclic-graph.
2019-10-31T15:30:05Z gnomon: I don't agree with drh about everything but I have a huge amount of respect for his conduct.
2019-10-31T15:30:19Z gnomon: (and his work speaks for itself, of course)
2019-10-31T15:30:50Z amz3: merkel tree helps with secure exchange (given the source is trusted) and reduce stream the missing objects from local database: https://stackoverflow.com/q/5486304/140837
2019-10-31T15:31:28Z gnomon: amz3, an object can be a blob, a tree, a commit, or an annotated tag.  (It's a short list, that's complete.)
2019-10-31T15:31:47Z amz3: gnomon: tx!
2019-10-31T15:31:49Z Riastradh: amz3: (FYI, the term is `Merkle tree', named after Ralph Merkle, the person who invented public-key cryptography (secret GCHQ research couple years earlier aside).)
2019-10-31T15:32:03Z amz3: oh!
2019-10-31T15:32:29Z gnomon: amz3, no problem.  (I've been on the hook to teach git at $JOB for a while, I've had to stuff a bunch of that into my brain-meats cache.)
2019-10-31T15:33:09Z Riastradh: gnomon: You're going to show them the guide to git using spatial analogies from algebraic topology, right?
2019-10-31T15:33:10Z gnomon: amz3, there's one extra wrinkle: tree objects specifically can list: (1/3) trees, (2/3) blobs, and (3/3) git links.  You'll almost never run into #3 but they _do_ exist.
2019-10-31T15:33:18Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/tartley/tartley.html
2019-10-31T15:33:23Z gnomon: Riastradh, I'm not angry at anyone yet!!
2019-10-31T15:33:26Z Riastradh: (I saved a copy because it went away on the interwebs.)
2019-10-31T15:33:38Z gnomon: It went away?!
2019-10-31T15:33:45Z gnomon: Thank you for archiving it.
2019-10-31T15:33:55Z shkiaism: hello guys
2019-10-31T15:34:08Z Riastradh: (actually that chain of causality doesn't really make sense, and I don't remember why I saved a copy)
2019-10-31T15:34:28Z gnomon: shkiaism, ahoy!
2019-10-31T15:34:37Z shkiaism: i'm kinda new to IRC
2019-10-31T15:34:41Z shkiaism: so uh
2019-10-31T15:34:59Z shkiaism: is this the channel for Scheme, the programming language?
2019-10-31T15:35:28Z jcowan: It is indeed.
2019-10-31T15:36:00Z amz3: yes!
2019-10-31T15:36:05Z shkiaism: well i certainly didn't expect it to be this active
2019-10-31T15:36:26Z shkiaism: so i thought this might be the wrong channel
2019-10-31T15:36:33Z shkiaism: anyway
2019-10-31T15:36:37Z amz3: welcome!
2019-10-31T15:36:41Z jcowan: We are not a strictly on-topic channel
2019-10-31T15:36:46Z gnomon coughs delicately
2019-10-31T15:37:06Z jcowan: the ony thing really unwelcome (besides spam) is advocacy for other Lisps
2019-10-31T15:37:21Z shkiaism: jcowan: i see
2019-10-31T15:37:25Z jcowan: Not to say that we are an "off-topic is on topic" channel either
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2019-10-31T15:37:54Z shkiaism: alright
2019-10-31T15:38:08Z Riastradh: gnomon: ALSO make sure they're aware of the excellent, detailed, and infinitely extenive documentation at <https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/>.
2019-10-31T15:38:19Z amz3: +1
2019-10-31T15:38:40Z gnomon: Riastradh, bahahaha oh my
2019-10-31T15:38:40Z shkiaism: i'm here because i started to read SICP and i'm on chapter 2
2019-10-31T15:38:51Z gnomon: Riastradh, that entire site is one heck of a punchline.
2019-10-31T15:38:55Z jcowan: (I belong to a mailing list where OT is OT, known very justly as piffle.)
2019-10-31T15:38:58Z amz3: I am thinking about what to do with my versioned database. The original plan is too big.
2019-10-31T15:38:59Z Riastradh: gnomon: (don't get too caught up staring into that abyss, though; it's mesmerizing)
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2019-10-31T15:39:35Z gnomon: I _do_ have a penchant for being drawn in by horrible things
2019-10-31T15:39:38Z gnomon: Thank you for the warning
2019-10-31T15:39:53Z jcowan laughs IRL
2019-10-31T15:39:56Z amz3: and I don't want it to stay "only" a library, so I want to use it.
2019-10-31T15:39:57Z Riastradh: (also make sure to set the cup of tea down while you're reading it)
2019-10-31T15:40:24Z amz3: shkiaism: SICP is regular topic here.
2019-10-31T15:40:37Z jcowan: Indeed, there's a link to it in the topic line
2019-10-31T15:40:41Z gnomon puts https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net and a cup of tea into a cardboard box an scrawls "makeshift neti pot" on the side
2019-10-31T15:41:37Z shkiaism: amz3: that's nice to hear because the book is kind of hard for me, since I haven't done much programming
2019-10-31T15:41:57Z amz3: shkiaism: I can understand.
2019-10-31T15:43:03Z shkiaism: i'll be taking English classes from my university for a year, because while my uni is in Turkey, the classes are all English
2019-10-31T15:43:32Z shkiaism: so I thought I might using all that free time for somethink useful
2019-10-31T15:43:33Z gnomon: shkiaism, oh that's interesting.  Is that a common way to teach uni in Turkey?
2019-10-31T15:43:44Z jcowan: Hard to find textbooks in Turkish, I bet
2019-10-31T15:43:51Z jcowan: same thing in Israel
2019-10-31T15:44:06Z shkiaism: gnomon: good unis usually last 5 years instead of 4
2019-10-31T15:44:15Z shkiaism: the first year is the "prep year"
2019-10-31T15:44:23Z amz3: algerian univeristy think about changing from french to english
2019-10-31T15:44:40Z shkiaism: you can skip the year with an exam if you want
2019-10-31T15:45:17Z gnomon: Interesting, interesting
2019-10-31T15:45:24Z gnomon: shkiaism, thank you for sharing1
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2019-10-31T15:45:28Z gnomon: -1s/1/!/
2019-10-31T15:45:39Z jcowan: TIL that there is a 3D analogue of the taichi symbol (the circle with dark yin and black yang with a curvy line separating them)
2019-10-31T15:45:40Z amz3: shkiaism: by the way, do not learn my writing. I am not a very good writer and not a native english speaker ;)
2019-10-31T15:46:00Z jcowan: Your writing is fine, says this native speaker who has been a copy editor among other things.
2019-10-31T15:46:13Z amz3: maybe.
2019-10-31T15:46:47Z shkiaism: amz3: it's certainly better than mine
2019-10-31T15:47:11Z amz3: shkiaism: your english is good imo so far.
2019-10-31T15:47:33Z shkiaism: amz3: well I make a few mistakes here and there
2019-10-31T15:47:40Z jcowan: So do we all.
2019-10-31T15:47:48Z amz3: shkiaism: what scheme implementation do you use?
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2019-10-31T15:48:01Z shkiaism: for example I said "i'll be taking" instead of "i'm taking"
2019-10-31T15:48:15Z shkiaism: amz3: i use mit-scheme on emacs
2019-10-31T15:48:29Z amz3: ok
2019-10-31T15:48:34Z shkiaism: because I'm trying to get used to emacs
2019-10-31T15:48:43Z shkiaism: for debugging I use DrRacket tho
2019-10-31T15:48:44Z amz3: I use emacs too
2019-10-31T15:48:58Z shkiaism: because I have no idea how to debug on emacs
2019-10-31T15:49:07Z amz3: I use DrRacket for step-by-step macro expander
2019-10-31T15:49:38Z amz3: shkiaism: I use (define (pk . args) (write args) (newline) (car (reverse args)))
2019-10-31T15:49:53Z amz3: shkiaism: it somekind of print that will return the last argument
2019-10-31T15:50:17Z amz3: shkiaism: that is, I mostly debug using print and thinking.
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2019-10-31T15:51:14Z amz3: shkiaism: i don't use geiser debug tool.
2019-10-31T15:51:18Z shkiaism: amz3: interesting
2019-10-31T15:52:03Z amz3: shkiaism: there is also paredit extension that is popular among schemers. but I don't use it. Also I recommend the extension called: rainbow-delimiter.
2019-10-31T15:52:28Z amz3: it will highlight for parenthesis.
2019-10-31T15:52:34Z amz3: in different colors.
2019-10-31T15:52:35Z jcowan: I can't' find a picture, but it is spherical and has three parts, known as Yin, Yang, and Mills.
2019-10-31T15:52:47Z erkin: I couldn't live without rainbow-delimiters.
2019-10-31T15:53:12Z erkin: My sight is bad and I easily get lost in nested parentheses.
2019-10-31T15:53:18Z jcowan just thinks the name of the construct being closed when typing )
2019-10-31T15:53:28Z amz3: I code mostly with the feature that highlight the matching paren, for navigating rainbow delimiter is priceless.
2019-10-31T15:53:42Z amz3: ymmv.
2019-10-31T15:54:00Z shkiaism: well I love paredit but is my first time hearing rainbow-delimiters
2019-10-31T15:54:22Z jcowan: (let ((x 3) "close x") "close vars") (+ x 2 "close plus") "close body")
2019-10-31T15:54:31Z jcowan: where the quoted bits are what I am thinking, not strings
2019-10-31T15:55:03Z erkin: That works when writing the code, but not when I'm editing code (removing/adding sexps) in the block.
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2019-10-31T15:55:31Z amz3: erkin: you use paredit?
2019-10-31T15:55:34Z gwatt: jcowan: also, those parens don't balance
2019-10-31T15:55:46Z erkin: amz3: Yup.
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2019-10-31T16:00:25Z jcowan: yes, the paren after 3 should have been removed when I figured out how I was going to do this
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2019-10-31T16:19:01Z shkiaism: i finally customized rainbow-delimiters
2019-10-31T16:19:06Z shkiaism: it's awesome
2019-10-31T16:19:22Z shkiaism: amz3: thanks
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