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2019-09-01T08:01:55Z nlyy: hi
2019-09-01T08:06:04Z nlyy: how does one manage global state using monads? i expect that at some point some global mutation will take place?
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2019-09-01T08:08:27Z nlyy: http://git.piviq.ga:9001/emacsy.git/tree/emacsy/buffer.scm?h=new-mru#n226
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2019-09-01T08:15:15Z lockywolf: Hello, everyone. In r7rs, in the section 6.12, there is a description of an (environment) procedure from an (eval) library. It says: "The bindings of the environment represented by the specifier are immutable, as is the environment itself.". Why so? Can I create a mutable environment?
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2019-09-01T10:23:50Z weinholt: lockywolf, (interaction-environment) makes a mutable environment
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2019-09-01T11:01:11Z lockywolf: weinholt, does it?
2019-09-01T11:01:29Z lockywolf: I thought that is only gives a reference to the current environment.
2019-09-01T11:02:16Z lockywolf: And in chibi's repl, (equal? (interaction-environment) (current-environment)) => #t
2019-09-01T11:04:58Z weinholt: oh, so it does. interesting. i got it confused with new-interaction-environment in psyntax, and interaction-environment is just a parameter
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2019-09-01T11:24:18Z weinholt: lockywolf_, what's your use case?
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2019-09-01T11:36:21Z lockywolf_: weinholt, 1 min, I have a link
2019-09-01T11:37:02Z lockywolf_: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/chibi-scheme/a6SjgUSoHlo
2019-09-01T11:37:26Z lockywolf_: weinholt, ↑
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2019-09-01T11:45:40Z weinholt: lockywolf_, you can get line 4 like this: (eval '(display (macroexpand '(A))) (environment '(chibi ast) '(scheme write) '(scheme base)))
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2019-09-01T12:50:46Z lockywolf: weinholt, would be very happy to hear your recommendations
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2019-09-01T12:55:12Z weinholt: lockywolf, what kind of application are you writing?
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2019-09-01T14:52:43Z dto: today is a day of lispy celebration! i get to start implementing this really cool algorithm in Scheme. http://www.sequitur.info/
2019-09-01T14:55:23Z dto: from the original 1997 paper: "an algorithm that infers a hierarchical structure from a sequence of discrete symbols...phrases which appear more than once can be replaced by a grammatical rule that generates the phrase, and that this process can be continued recursively, producing a hierarchical representation of the original sequence.
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2019-09-01T14:58:22Z amz3: great!
2019-09-01T14:58:30Z dto: for me the "symbols" will actually be normalized lisp lists of metadata that are attached to each sound. the idea is to recover musical structure by annotating beats (either automatically through dsp, or through teaching it about particular samples
2019-09-01T14:58:31Z amz3: sounds very great!
2019-09-01T14:58:52Z dto: yes amz3 this is totally exciting.
2019-09-01T14:59:25Z amz3: dto: what is the purpose? the website doesn't help
2019-09-01T14:59:27Z dto: hi Riastradh you *just* missed the link to the paper i'm talking about implementing a cool algorithm from. http://www.sequitur.info/
2019-09-01T14:59:43Z amz3: is it a compression algorithm or something?
2019-09-01T15:00:04Z amz3: seems like it
2019-09-01T15:00:21Z dto: amz3: it's related to those and i'm sure people use it for that, however i want it to analyze the tag metadata on musical beat/note sequences
2019-09-01T15:00:31Z amz3: wow
2019-09-01T15:00:39Z dto: to try to recover upbeat/downbeat/syncopation patterns
2019-09-01T15:00:43Z amz3: to detect patterns? stuff like that?
2019-09-01T15:00:44Z dto: maybe even verse/chorus structure.
2019-09-01T15:00:48Z amz3: great
2019-09-01T15:00:50Z dto: yes dude!
2019-09-01T15:01:23Z amz3: good luck :)
2019-09-01T15:02:01Z dto: the actual algorithm does not look too bad in terms of complexity. it uses a dictionary to store repeated sequences, then replaces those symbols with a new symbol representing their joining. the neat trick is that you recurse, and the symbols get bigger, and parallel repetitions of structures then match the same symbols etc
2019-09-01T15:02:09Z dto: until you have a minimal normalized CFG!
2019-09-01T15:02:31Z amz3: seems like a trie could help.
2019-09-01T15:02:37Z dto: thanks amz3 :) i will share the scheme as a separate file under MIT license for sure so that peeps can mess with it.
2019-09-01T15:03:21Z dto: i'll have to refresh my memory on what tries are.
2019-09-01T15:03:28Z dto: thanks for your suggestion.
2019-09-01T15:03:31Z amz3: prefix trees basically
2019-09-01T15:03:45Z dto: ah.
2019-09-01T15:03:46Z amz3: dto: look into particia trees
2019-09-01T15:04:00Z amz3: that the most easy term to look for.
2019-09-01T15:04:20Z amz3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radix_tree
2019-09-01T15:04:42Z amz3: tree of prefix might be a better description.
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2019-09-01T15:15:29Z dto: thank you amz3 !
2019-09-01T15:15:52Z amz3: you are welcome
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2019-09-01T15:40:35Z phwalkr: Hey. I'm making a very simple game. I'm not being able to figure it out how to get char keys without the need to hit the newline btn. Even with (read-char) there is the need to hit 'enter'
2019-09-01T15:40:41Z phwalkr: Thoughts?
2019-09-01T15:42:35Z weinholt: phwalkr, you need to set the terminal to raw mode
2019-09-01T15:42:37Z Riastradh: On Unix that generally requires futzing with termios settings.
2019-09-01T15:43:34Z phwalkr: ooh, so it's terminal settings. Ok. Thank you! I'll search for it!
2019-09-01T15:43:43Z Riastradh: tcgetattr, cfmakeraw, tcsetattr
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2019-09-01T15:51:01Z wasamasa: don't forget switching back once you're done
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2019-09-01T16:06:59Z phwalkr: wasamasa: Good point! I'll try to switch and switch back inside the game.
2019-09-01T16:07:10Z wasamasa: I mean after exiting the game
2019-09-01T16:07:33Z wasamasa: the settings affect the terminal you're running the game inside
2019-09-01T16:07:52Z wasamasa: it's kind of like a game changing video modes at boot and resets them after exit
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2019-09-01T16:12:35Z mdhughes: Worst case, you can always (system "stty raw")
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2019-09-01T16:12:54Z amz3: termbox ftw
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2019-09-01T16:32:47Z rain1: hi
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2019-09-01T16:48:43Z dto: is it typical to be able to apply hash table as a function such as (define myhash (make-hash-table)) (set! (myhash 5) "foo")
2019-09-01T16:48:50Z dto: or is that a peculiarity of s7?
2019-09-01T16:50:33Z gwatt: dto: does (myhash 5) act like a hastable lookup?
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2019-09-01T16:50:44Z dto: yes indeed.
2019-09-01T16:51:03Z gwatt: Though I guess it's a combination of special set! semantics and callable hashtables
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2019-09-01T16:51:17Z dto: this strikes me as atypical. S7 is pretty interesting.
2019-09-01T16:52:30Z gwatt: IIRC, s7 also splices multiple values into an expression, such that (+ (values 1 2 3)) => 6
2019-09-01T16:53:03Z wasamasa: I remember a blog post explaining some of these design choices
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2019-09-01T16:55:44Z gwatt: Oh man, this is wild: (cond (1 => "hi")) => #\i
2019-09-01T17:02:21Z weinholt: gwatt, (define even? (let ((l (list #t #f))) (set-cdr! (cdr l) l) (lambda (n) (l n))))
2019-09-01T17:03:16Z dto: yes gwatt that is very interesting
2019-09-01T17:03:51Z dto: i'm having buckets of fun with Snd and S7. so many included wondertoys
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2019-09-01T17:21:15Z gwatt: weinholt: would that set-cdr! be replaced with (set! (cdr l) l) ? Most of s7 seems to have a generalized set!
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2019-09-01T17:29:16Z weinholt: gwatt, it would need to set the cddr and that's where the illusion stops: "error: no generalized set for cddr"
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2019-09-01T20:05:37Z because[m]: I'm interested in OS projects and lisp machines. Curious if anyone is aware of any? Interim-OS is the only one I'm aware of.
2019-09-01T20:05:40Z because[m]: http://interim-os.com/
2019-09-01T20:06:27Z because[m]: The dev also mentions Picobit as an influence on the project.
2019-09-01T20:08:35Z rain1: because[m]: eulex is forth but has a lisp interpreter
2019-09-01T20:12:02Z erkin: There are several Lisp-in-your-pocket projects, if you're interested in that kinda thing.
2019-09-01T20:12:14Z DKordic: https://3lproject.org/blog/2018-update
2019-09-01T20:12:26Z erkin: There's Mezzano OS, which is written in Common Lisp but seems to be abandoned.
2019-09-01T20:13:40Z erkin: Also, of course, Symbolics OpenGenera is still being sold. If you're willing to pay big bucks to get an OS that only works with auxiliary cards on legacy hardware or in a virtual machine on DEC Ultrix on Alpha, that is.
2019-09-01T20:14:08Z DKordic: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html is interesting.
2019-09-01T20:15:10Z erkin: I like some of the articles put there, such as the single-level object store. It's a refreshing departure from Unix-based computers.
2019-09-01T20:16:01Z erkin: I'm considering getting one of these: https://makerlisp.com/
2019-09-01T20:16:40Z erkin: Although the Lisp implementation is, well, rather weird. It's a Scheme with Common Lisp syntax with libc functions tacked on.
2019-09-01T20:17:05Z weinholt: because[m], https://gitlab.com/weinholt/loko  here's another one in the pile
2019-09-01T20:17:15Z DKordic: IMHO 3L Project is not interesting ATM.
2019-09-01T20:19:53Z rain1: wow this is incredible
2019-09-01T20:20:57Z erkin: No wait
2019-09-01T20:21:03Z erkin: Mezzano is still under development, I was thinking of Movitz.
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2019-09-01T20:21:41Z erkin: Oh and Lisp machine emulators still exist. https://github.com/dseagrav/ld
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2019-09-01T20:22:58Z DKordic: https://arrdem.com/2014/11/27/the_future_of_the_lispm/ is interesting.
2019-09-01T20:23:27Z because[m]: sincere thank you(s) all around.
2019-09-01T20:23:59Z because[m]: Idk what the latest version of open genera is...since I can't afford it probably. But you can emulate 2.0 on x86 linux
2019-09-01T20:24:02Z because[m]: https://static.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html
2019-09-01T20:24:15Z erkin: Yeah, you should be able to run it in Qemu.
2019-09-01T20:26:49Z erkin: Oh wow, there's an x86 Linux executable containing the environment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12USa3gU_oU
2019-09-01T20:27:50Z wasamasa: because[m]: interim is like the worst of them all
2019-09-01T20:29:05Z because[m]: wasamasa: in what terms? I am interested in plan9 as well. In fact I'm a user. That's how I stumbled on it
2019-09-01T20:29:24Z because[m]: He didn't get very far I'll say that
2019-09-01T20:29:25Z wasamasa: overall quality
2019-09-01T20:30:43Z amz3: because[m]: did you read the lispos paper?
2019-09-01T20:31:22Z amz3: HX/pSwTy,`G'/3%0HI11
2019-09-01T20:31:24Z amz3: ooops
2019-09-01T20:31:26Z amz3: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2019-09-01T20:31:29Z wasamasa: I hacked on it for some time: https://github.com/wasamasa/interim/blob/next/TODO.org
2019-09-01T20:31:33Z because[m]: I've seen a scheme paper. From Indiana University
2019-09-01T20:32:30Z DKordic: [[http://armpit.sourceforge.net/][Armpit Scheme]].
2019-09-01T20:33:34Z erkin: Neat
2019-09-01T20:35:08Z wasamasa: the big problems are the lisp (broken GC, scope), the C sources (sloppy, UB) and that everything feels like a temporary hack
2019-09-01T20:35:23Z wasamasa: you try a demo and discover it used to work
2019-09-01T20:35:40Z wasamasa: or you fix one and another one breaks
2019-09-01T20:36:10Z amz3: :/
2019-09-01T20:36:10Z because[m]: amz3: Yes! The comments on heirarchical file systems gave me a lot to think about. I'm not sure where I land on that still.
2019-09-01T20:36:29Z wasamasa: that's about interim, not the other ones
2019-09-01T20:36:43Z because[m]: wasamasa: My assumption seeing that the organization builds laptops now is that was what they wanted all along
2019-09-01T20:36:47Z amz3: because[m]: well, I am biased but hierarchy is not the only way to go. It should not be the only way to go.
2019-09-01T20:37:12Z wasamasa: the dev is currently working on more interesting things, like an amiga graphics card and custom laptop with a minimum of blobs
2019-09-01T20:37:16Z amz3: because[m]: the problem, is right now Desktop Environment only provide fs kind of organization. With search being a second citizen
2019-09-01T20:37:28Z wasamasa: because[m]: I never confronted them about the idea of compiling JS to that lisp
2019-09-01T20:37:54Z amz3: because[m]: and basically no support for taxonomies
2019-09-01T20:38:13Z erkin: Oh hey
2019-09-01T20:38:17Z erkin: That sounds like mntmn
2019-09-01T20:38:25Z erkin: I didn't know he did the Interim OS.
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2019-09-01T20:39:04Z erkin: s/did/made/
2019-09-01T20:39:59Z DKordic: http://microscheme.org/
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2019-09-01T20:57:21Z erkin: Is MIT/GNU Scheme the only image-based Scheme?
2019-09-01T20:58:57Z jcowan: I saw Makerlisp demo's by the maker.  Amazing.
2019-09-01T20:59:21Z jcowan: Too expensive for a toy, though.
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2019-09-01T21:06:47Z erkin: It's really expensive, yeah.
2019-09-01T21:08:14Z edgar-rft: maybe you can get it for free when you meet your maker
2019-09-01T21:09:27Z Riastradh: erkin: No, but it's not a criterion that's relevant to much modern development.  Incremental reproducible builds are generally more important.
2019-09-01T21:10:13Z erkin: I can't tell if it's a necessity for restart-based debugging.
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2019-09-01T21:11:10Z erkin: Because I really like being able to hotplug code into a faulty program instead of just letting the stack unwind.
2019-09-01T21:14:17Z Riastradh: I just fixed a...what was it, 30-year-old bug in MIT Scheme's restart system?  Essentially nobody ever makes more than trivial use of it.
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2019-09-01T21:14:37Z erkin: :-(
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2019-09-01T21:17:18Z Riastradh: Also a 12-year-old bug nearby.
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2019-09-01T21:27:52Z gwatt: Riastradh: did you actually run into the bug, or were you looking there and thought "hey, something's off here..." ?
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2019-09-01T21:36:42Z Riastradh: gwatt: Kinda convoluted.
2019-09-01T21:37:57Z Riastradh: 1. Changed ABI to put return value in rax rather than at 123(rsi) or whatever in memory.
2019-09-01T21:38:44Z Riastradh: 2. Taught compiler back end to avoid using rax as a physical home for a pseudo-register on return (and on entry to continuations), without preventing it from being allocated as a home in other places.
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2019-09-01T21:39:32Z Riastradh: 3. Looked for other places where rax was already used that could clash with the register allocator and realized the unbound-variable restart logic did that in a way that would fail with certain kinds of procedures.
2019-09-01T21:39:44Z Riastradh: 4. Wrote a test for the unbound-variable restart logic and fixed that particular bug.
2019-09-01T21:41:13Z Riastradh: 5. Forgot about it for a while.
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2019-09-01T21:43:05Z Riastradh: ...kinda long story, but anyway, that test started tripping too because of the 30-year-old bug, and when I expanded the test from just use-value to store-value too, it also tripped on a 12-year-old bug.
2019-09-01T21:43:42Z Riastradh: So, there have been three >decade-old bugs in the unbound-variable restart logic that I've fixed this year (so far!).
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2019-09-01T21:48:27Z erkin: Impressive.
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2019-09-01T21:57:50Z Riastradh: Not really -- bugs invariably crawl out when you shine tests on them, especially in code that essentially nobody ever uses.
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2019-09-01T22:40:25Z jcowan: Riastradh: does this bug exist in your portable implementation?
2019-09-01T22:41:54Z Riastradh: jcowan: No, this is only about the particular logic to restart unbound-variable errors.
2019-09-01T22:42:04Z jcowan: Ah, good.
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2019-09-02T01:29:03Z dto: here's my first whack at implementing Sequitur algorithm. I've verified the first 2 tests are correct, the longer test looks right but i haven't verified it yet
2019-09-02T01:29:06Z dto: much more to do :) https://pastebin.com/m4uBuG6a
2019-09-02T01:31:34Z dto: https://pastebin.com/raw/bc7enXxD output
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2019-09-02T13:36:25Z phwalkr: wasamasa: Hey. Thanks for yesterday's info! I'm reading Gambit's manual and it seems that with the proper configuration, you can get chars without any buffering on a port.
2019-09-02T13:37:20Z phwalkr: I'm not being able to produce any proper result yet, all I get are either error or the need to input a newline
2019-09-02T13:37:57Z phwalkr: Right now my test is as simple as this:
2019-09-02T13:37:59Z phwalkr: (define (getchar) (port-settings-set! (current-input-port) (list input-buffering: #f)) (let loop () (write-char (read-char (current-input-port))) (loop)))
2019-09-02T13:38:39Z phwalkr: If you guys have any thoughts at all on that matter, please, share it.
2019-09-02T13:39:31Z phwalkr: Maybe I'm making some silly mistake, not sure.
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2019-09-02T16:44:01Z amz3: what happened in #scheme world? or what did not happen?!
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2019-09-02T17:13:16Z amz3: rudybot: what will happen when all the people will code in scheme?
2019-09-02T17:13:33Z rudybot: amz3: it would be great to have your sqlite3 code in MIT/GNU Scheme master, is that going to happen anytime soon?
2019-09-02T17:13:52Z amz3: rudybot: my code is about foundationdb!
2019-09-02T17:13:59Z rudybot: amz3: foundationdb has been released open source, does it solve the persistent storage problem postgres has?
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2019-09-02T17:14:10Z amz3: rudybot: yes.
2019-09-02T17:14:10Z rudybot: amz3: yes, but that won't do what you think.
2019-09-02T17:14:17Z amz3: true.
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2019-09-02T17:21:14Z lavaflow: sqlite is so cool, even for kv stores.   sql gives you a ton of flexibility with queries.
2019-09-02T17:22:20Z lavaflow: what I felt I needed at the time was a kv store that could perform set intersections fast.  but using sqlite instead gave me the opportunity to discover my need for queries far more sophisticated than that.
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2019-09-02T17:31:48Z la_zaifir: SQLite is quite nice, and also another good reason to use Fossil.
2019-09-02T17:32:21Z la_zaifir: But from a functional perspective, https://www.categoricaldata.net/ looks fascinating.
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2019-09-02T17:50:15Z lavaflow: huh, interesting
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2019-09-02T17:52:37Z lavaflow: this is unrelated to cassandra, right?  because there is also "cassandra query language" (CQL) using the same initialism
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2019-09-02T17:57:17Z la_zaifir: Not AFAIK.  The -QL namespace is crowded indeed.
2019-09-02T17:58:00Z la_zaifir: CQL's predecessor was FQL ('functorial query language'), imo a better name.
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2019-09-02T20:18:53Z jcowan: So far there doesn't appear to be a query language called NYQL.
2019-09-02T20:22:35Z mario-goulart: Not Your Query Language?
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2019-09-02T20:55:21Z lavaflow: ship it
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2019-09-02T21:01:07Z edgar-rft: No/Yes Query Language?
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2019-09-02T23:39:39Z jcowan: Nyquil is a cold and flu symptom-relief medicine sold in the US; it contains diphenhydramine, so it makes you sleepy as well.  (The DPH-free version is called Dayquil.)
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2019-09-02T23:47:49Z mdhughes: I once was working a job with no real PTO and anyway had a deadline, so I used Dayquil to let me work through a horrible flu. I disavow all of that code, and the company is about half the size it was when I worked there, which may be my fault.
2019-09-02T23:50:22Z mdhughes: DYQL would be great, a database that keeps working no matter what errors happen, but doesn't always store the right data.
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2019-09-03T11:53:13Z amz3: mdhughes: DYQL?
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2019-09-03T13:19:07Z jcowan: A pun on Dayquil, as NYQL is a pun on Nyquil, see above.
2019-09-03T13:20:17Z jcowan: Works best for those who pronounce SQL as a word (two syllables) which is not official but is what I and many others do.
2019-09-03T13:22:41Z amz3: oh
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2019-09-03T13:35:57Z gwatt: I know someone who pronounces it "sqeal". For example, he will say "my squeal".
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2019-09-03T15:46:54Z jcowan: gwatt: I squeal, you squeal, we all squeal for MySQL.
2019-09-03T15:47:06Z jcowan: (then again there is IBM, UBM, we all BM for IBM)
2019-09-03T15:47:28Z Riastradh: squeal in horror is indeed the appropriate response to having to deal with mysql.
2019-09-03T15:47:46Z jcowan: What makes it worse than any other SQL database?
2019-09-03T15:48:24Z Riastradh: no transactions for schema changes
2019-09-03T15:48:58Z Riastradh: I vaguely recall that various other things about transactions were broken too.
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2019-09-03T15:50:01Z Riastradh: I guess it's faster if you just don't care about integrity.
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2019-09-03T16:40:14Z dto: here's the output with notes, of my implementation of Sequitur running on example sequences with "a b c d" https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/rnJP0OkP/
2019-09-03T16:40:50Z dto: i also got it to work analyzing sequences of MIDI note numbers detected from a song, and it was surprisingly able to identify AABBCCDDAABBCC... chord structure in a song
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2019-09-03T16:41:11Z dto: i'll post more info when it becomes available. in the interim, if u want to see my implementation, https://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el/blob/master/mosaic.scm
2019-09-03T16:41:49Z dto: the next step will involve transforming the output rules into an L-system
2019-09-03T16:42:16Z dto: for rearrangement/resynthesis of the sound attached to each symbol
2019-09-03T16:44:23Z dto: anyway i'm pretty sure for that particular song, the top note of each chord was unique , otherwise a simple MIDI note wouldn't have shown up every chord
2019-09-03T16:44:46Z dto: how is everyone today?
2019-09-03T16:44:48Z dto: hi Riastradh
2019-09-03T16:45:29Z dto: this is just about the most exciting and fun code i've ever written and i think it's no coincidence that it's happens to be in scheme :) and i must give props to the authors of the Snd editor as well. it contains a vast emacs-like schemeworld
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2019-09-03T17:39:21Z gwatt: Riastradh: I think many of the problems with mysql are actually with the MyISAM storage engine. innodb is much better. Having said that, there are a still a ton of quirks.
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2019-09-03T17:44:44Z Riastradh: Hi dto!
2019-09-03T17:45:21Z Riastradh: gwatt: I vaguely recall hearing that, yeah.  Last time I had to do database surgery on MySQL it was not using innodb.  Maybe if it's the default now things are better, but...
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2019-09-03T17:45:39Z Riastradh: c'mon, seriously, pgsql and sqlite3 have had working transactions since approximately forever.
2019-09-03T17:46:21Z gwatt: but having all that stuff makes it slower! That's why mysql is best sql!
2019-09-03T17:46:30Z Riastradh: If reliable transactions is not a top priority, why are you even in the business of storing people's data?
2019-09-03T17:47:00Z Riastradh: Call it a `cache', not a `database'.
2019-09-03T17:47:20Z gwatt: I think myisam works ok if you have only one user at a time.
2019-09-03T17:47:40Z Riastradh: ...and that user never makes a mistake, and never loses power.
2019-09-03T17:47:52Z Riastradh: I just can't take it seriously.  How is it that there's so much money in this crap?
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2019-09-03T20:01:13Z jcowan: Riastradh: Marketing
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2019-09-03T20:31:23Z dto: how can I make (format #t "~S" object)  always print the entire list etc? and never use ellipses to make it shorter
2019-09-03T20:31:44Z dto: this is in s7 scheme but the docs sometimes leave out things that might be helpful to a new schemer
2019-09-03T20:32:43Z dto: hmm.
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2019-09-03T20:35:52Z dto: ah. -W seems to have worked
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2019-09-03T20:52:47Z la_zaifir: s7 needs SRFI 166 combinator formatting!
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2019-09-03T22:56:03Z dto: my implementation of Sequitur algorithm into SoundMosaic appears to have succeeded. stiill more tests. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/5DmAL6l0/awesome.png
2019-09-03T22:57:00Z dto: if you want to hear the cello solo it's from, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phygv_Et9sQ
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2019-09-04T06:44:25Z RichardAx: Hello
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2019-09-04T08:47:36Z lockywolf_: What is the proper name for 'load-time binding'?
2019-09-04T08:49:53Z lockywolf_: I know 'lexical binding', as "values cannot escape a procedure" and 'dynamic binding', that is "values can escape a procedure". But what is the name for "values must be known at compile-time"?
2019-09-04T08:50:31Z lockywolf_: Like, c-style binding.
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2019-09-04T09:06:19Z ecraven: lockywolf_: I don't think lexical and dynamic binding are defined like that
2019-09-04T09:07:55Z lockywolf_: ecraven, not really
2019-09-04T09:08:09Z lockywolf_: You're right.
2019-09-04T09:27:33Z lockywolf_: Still, does c-style binding have any special name?
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2019-09-04T10:21:27Z ecraven: what do you mean? C has normal lexical binding?
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2019-09-04T13:30:25Z mdhughes: C has static allocation for globals and function statics, and stack-scoped allocation for locals (even if the compiler pretends there are multiple "lexical scopes", there are not). It's not really comparable.
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2019-09-04T13:39:18Z gwatt: Lexical scope doesn't care about the storage of the variable, just how to resolve a reference to it. And you *can* shadow variable definitions in C.
2019-09-04T13:44:53Z jcowan has always thought shadowing a Bad Thing
2019-09-04T13:45:33Z ecraven: hehe, I use it all the time to "update" a variable's value
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2019-09-04T15:03:09Z mdhughes: But that leads to surprises like leaving a block and suddenly it has the old value (because the "shadow" really has a different storage location than the original)
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2019-09-04T15:38:08Z la_zaifir: A common pattern seems to be things like (let ((v (lookup v env))) ...), where `lookup' is some function that may just return the first argument.
2019-09-04T15:38:36Z la_zaifir: Shadowing seems like decent name-economy in a limited number of cases like that.
2019-09-04T15:41:39Z la_zaifir: And name economy is good!  "The beauty of FORTRAN--and the reason it was an improvement over assembly language--was that it relieved the programmer of the obligation to make up names for intermediate results." (Appel, _Compiling With Continuations_)
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2019-09-04T16:11:15Z nly: has anybody tried the examples in hoare csp? the one at bottom of pg33
2019-09-04T16:11:20Z ecraven: mdhughes: well, I don't mutate the value, so at least I don't get surprised by that.. but then, I mostly write Scheme code for myself, not in a team, so that makes everything much simpler
2019-09-04T16:11:50Z rain1: nly how about a screenshot
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2019-09-04T16:12:17Z nly: ok
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2019-09-04T16:15:08Z nly: this is the fullpdf http://usingcsp.com/cspbook.pdf
2019-09-04T16:15:25Z nly figuring out screenshot
2019-09-04T16:16:23Z rain1: the pdf is fine
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2019-09-04T16:17:59Z gwatt: Lexical scope doesn't care about the storage of the variable, just how to resolve a reference to it. And you *can* shadow variable definitions in C.
2019-09-04T16:18:10Z gwatt: oops
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2019-09-04T16:20:36Z nly: it's the example on the bottom half https://imgur.com/a/AxefcZc
2019-09-04T16:20:49Z nly: pg35
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2019-09-04T16:26:13Z la_zaifir: Imgur as pastebin??
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2019-09-04T16:30:07Z nly: sorry, what's the preferred website?
2019-09-04T16:31:27Z pjb: there's none.
2019-09-04T16:34:31Z la_zaifir: pjb: There's a pastebin in the topic https://paste.debian.net
2019-09-04T16:34:59Z la_zaifir: Though if you've only got screenshots, I guess that's not much help.
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2019-09-04T16:39:54Z nly: ok
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2019-09-04T16:48:27Z nly: maybe this works http://nly.info.tm:9002/hoare-csp.pdf
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2019-09-04T16:50:18Z nly: pg 33 bottom, or pg35(with picture) bottom half
2019-09-04T16:52:45Z nly: it describes a machine with boundless states
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2019-09-04T16:52:50Z jcowan: Can anyone explain what syntactic lifting is?
2019-09-04T16:53:04Z rain1: no never heard of it
2019-09-04T16:53:13Z la_zaifir: nly: What's the question?
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2019-09-04T16:55:43Z nly: a machine has several states, states determine what the machine can accept and do at a particular moment. in example 2 it's a machine that can can either go 'up' or 'down' as many times as it likes but not anymore after hitting the ground
2019-09-04T16:56:34Z nly: cannot perform 'down' after already on ground
2019-09-04T16:57:43Z pjb:  /whoami
2019-09-04T16:58:11Z gwatt: jcowan: this looks promising: https://cs.brown.edu/research/pubs/theses/phd/2018/pombrio.justin.pdf
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2019-09-04T17:21:36Z nly: my solution sits here, i couldn't get 'mover' working. https://github.com/o-nly/emacsy/blob/new-mru/emacsy/csp.scm#L136
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2019-09-04T18:38:41Z wasamasa: fun: https://www.romab.com/ironsuite/SBPL.html
2019-09-04T18:39:04Z wasamasa: tinyscheme is apparently in every not completely outdated mac :D
2019-09-04T18:40:04Z gwatt: I'm surprised they didn't do something awful with XML
2019-09-04T18:40:24Z la_zaifir: TinyScheme does have a tradition of being used by malicious folks, yes.
2019-09-04T18:40:36Z wasamasa: indeed, their .plist format does that
2019-09-04T18:41:09Z wasamasa: it used to be different though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_list#NeXTSTEP
2019-09-04T18:42:19Z wasamasa: here's a paper on reversing binary into textual SBPL: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1608.04303.pdf
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2019-09-04T19:18:35Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-09-05T00:14:03Z mdhughes: la_zaifir: At least when I wrote assembly, I never made up intermediate names, I just did my work on the stack. 6502 was only really usable as a stack machine.
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2019-09-05T00:17:48Z mdhughes: Mac plists are typically rendered as XML, but actually stored in binary form.
2019-09-05T00:18:08Z mdhughes: The original JSON-like format is read-only for most tools.
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2019-09-05T00:20:40Z mdhughes: Neat part is BBEdit will open any plist, show it as XML, and save it in the file's format.
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2019-09-05T00:46:07Z aeth: in assembly the real variable name ; goes here
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2019-09-05T01:08:51Z la_zaifir: If you program in the Apple world, your variable names are allocated to you when you get your AppleID, but you can't disclose them because of the NDA you've signed.
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2019-09-05T01:20:11Z mdhughes: Not quite: You can pick your own, but everything must start with your company's TLA prefix because there's no namespacing. And the term we use is REDACTED.
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2019-09-05T01:23:25Z mdhughes: https://twitter.com/search?q=since%3A2006-01-01%20until%3A2011-12-31%20wwdc%20redacted
2019-09-05T01:26:34Z la_zaifir: Heh.  "The 10.[redacted] API really encourages [redacted]."
2019-09-05T01:26:50Z jcowan: And of course there are only 17,576 TLAs, so when they are gone they are GONE.
2019-09-05T01:30:30Z mdhughes: Apple mostly uses 2LA internally, like NS (NeXTstep), CK (CloudKit), etc., but some 3LA, so they're not all available.
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2019-09-05T04:36:43Z dto: my latest Scheme adventures are now posted, with audio snippets, code, data, analysis, commentary! https://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el    scroll down to "Latest News" :)
2019-09-05T04:36:52Z dto: so , S7 has something called implicit indexing.
2019-09-05T04:36:53Z dto: You can do
2019-09-05T04:37:01Z dto: (set! foo (make-hash-table))
2019-09-05T04:37:07Z dto: (set! (foo 'key) value)
2019-09-05T04:37:18Z dto: and (map fn foo)
2019-09-05T04:37:23Z dto: isn't that wack AF?
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2019-09-05T04:44:06Z belmarca: I think that's what clojure does with maps. They're functions. unless I misunderstand
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2019-09-05T04:52:37Z mdhughes: You can do that with a bunch of types with SRFI-17: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-17/srfi-17.html
2019-09-05T04:55:02Z mdhughes: But you have to do ugly things like (set! (hash-table-ref h 'foo) 1)
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2019-09-05T05:38:48Z dto: it's a wild style of programming.
2019-09-05T05:38:50Z dto: having fun :)
2019-09-05T05:46:13Z mario-goulart: dto: this is a similar hack for CHICKEN: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/callable-data-structures
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2019-09-05T05:59:53Z dto: cool mario-goulart looking now
2019-09-05T06:00:10Z dto: chicken is so cool :)
2019-09-05T06:00:29Z la_zaifir: s7 has a generic 'map'?  Weird.
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2019-09-05T08:13:59Z lockywolf_: ecraven, I don't know, and that's why I am asking
2019-09-05T08:15:13Z lockywolf_: in C it is required to have symbols defined at compile time, not at run time
2019-09-05T08:15:30Z ecraven: same thing in Scheme
2019-09-05T08:15:55Z ecraven: for example in Chez Scheme, you get an error if at compile time an identifier cannot be resolved to a binding
2019-09-05T08:16:12Z lockywolf_: ecraven, I have repl in scheme
2019-09-05T08:16:32Z ecraven: yes, and as soon as you type something in, on a compiler, it will be checked
2019-09-05T08:16:35Z ecraven: not all schemes do this
2019-09-05T08:16:39Z lockywolf_: I can define a function referring to stuff that I have not yet defined
2019-09-05T08:17:12Z lockywolf_: (define (inc) x + 1) is valid in scheme
2019-09-05T08:17:33Z lockywolf_: sorry
2019-09-05T08:17:48Z lockywolf_: (define (inc) (+ x 1) ) is valid in scheme
2019-09-05T08:18:10Z ecraven: no, chez will not compile this in whole program mode, unless x can be resolved
2019-09-05T08:18:12Z lockywolf_: int inc(void) { return x+1; } is not valid in c++
2019-09-05T08:18:32Z lockywolf_: or in C
2019-09-05T08:18:40Z ecraven: it is valid in the same cases as in Scheme, namely if x is a global variable
2019-09-05T08:19:17Z lockywolf_: I am not familliar with chez
2019-09-05T08:19:32Z ecraven: it's not only chez, but others as well
2019-09-05T08:19:36Z ecraven: some only give warnings, some errors
2019-09-05T08:19:47Z lockywolf_: but in chicken, chibi and guile it has no problems whatsoever
2019-09-05T08:19:48Z ecraven: this is a question of the implementation, not of Scheme as a language
2019-09-05T08:20:34Z lockywolf_: just tried it in MIT/GNU, works exactly the same
2019-09-05T08:20:41Z ecraven: not if you compile the code
2019-09-05T08:20:47Z ecraven: only if you run it in the repl
2019-09-05T08:23:28Z lockywolf_: ecraven, try $(csi -b -e "(define (inc) (+ x 1))")
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2019-09-05T08:24:44Z ecraven: csi is the interpreter, not the compiler
2019-09-05T08:25:32Z mdhughes: Note: the following toplevel variables are referenced but unbound:  x (in inc)
2019-09-05T08:27:52Z lockywolf_: yeah, giving a warning is nice
2019-09-05T08:28:00Z mdhughes: It actually compiles without error in Chicken, but of course crashes at runtime.
2019-09-05T08:28:26Z ecraven: which again is fine. depending on the actual implementation, x *could* be defined in some way at runtime
2019-09-05T08:28:39Z ecraven: in chez, in whole program mode, it cannot be defined, so chez doesn't even let you compile this.
2019-09-05T08:28:46Z ecraven: other implementations allow this, so no error is raised
2019-09-05T08:29:33Z mdhughes: I'm actually annoyed it didn't give a warning/error in compile. Maybe I don't have good options in my build script.
2019-09-05T08:32:02Z lockywolf_: chicken compiles this fine
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2019-09-05T08:38:16Z mdhughes: Using the -verbose option doesn't show the note. So, test everything in csi before trusting the compiler!
2019-09-05T08:40:11Z lockywolf_: I'm not sure, but this should be the difference between late binding and eager biding...
2019-09-05T08:40:29Z lockywolf_: so scheme binding on average is lexical but lazy
2019-09-05T08:40:44Z lockywolf_: whereas C is lexical but eager
2019-09-05T08:40:58Z rain1: lazy in whath sense
2019-09-05T08:41:22Z lockywolf_: in the sense that the bindings are not resolved until they are needed
2019-09-05T08:42:29Z rain1: i don't think that's true
2019-09-05T08:43:17Z lockywolf_: rain1, how to make a counterexample?
2019-09-05T08:44:59Z cpressey: "Some implementations of Scheme use an initial environment in which all possible variables are bound to locations, most of which contain undefined values." - R5RS
2019-09-05T08:45:17Z cpressey: I think that's a better way to put it
2019-09-05T08:45:48Z cpressey: That's the closest I could find to R5RS saying anything about this one way or the other.
2019-09-05T08:46:06Z rain1: I don't think there is a counter example
2019-09-05T08:46:49Z rain1: lexical scope means - to me at least - that bindings are resolved at compile time
2019-09-05T08:46:55Z rain1: or at least before execution
2019-09-05T08:47:08Z rain1: but resolving a binding is a different thing to looking the value of a variable
2019-09-05T08:47:15Z rain1: looking up a value happens at runtime
2019-09-05T08:48:43Z ggole: (lambda () x) evaluates without complaint in some Schemes, but I would say that the reference to x has been resolved (to the as yet undefined global x)
2019-09-05T08:49:04Z ggole: I dunno that I would call that lazy, but it's certainly different to C
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2019-09-05T09:49:37Z plugd: ggole: I think I agree - I'd just call it "late binding".  I've only heard lazy/eager used to describe the order of evaluation.
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2019-09-05T09:50:23Z plugd: I.e. in scheme's case, late binding + eager evaluation (applicative order)
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2019-09-05T11:32:47Z rain1: i think the concept of late binding is confusing and doesn't help understand scheme
2019-09-05T11:33:25Z rain1: a file with   (define a (lambda () x))  (define x 3)  is OK but without a definition for x it should be an unbound variable error
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2019-09-05T11:36:52Z plugd: rain1: for me it is a concept that definitely helps.  My other favourite language is forth, which has early binding.
2019-09-05T11:37:40Z plugd: e.g. ": x 42 ; : y x ; : x 53 ; x y" leaves 53 and 42 on the stack.
2019-09-05T11:37:50Z plugd: It's a stark contrast.
2019-09-05T11:38:51Z rain1: wikipedia defines it like this: Late binding, dynamic binding[1], or dynamic linkage[2] is a computer programming mechanism in which the method being called upon an object or the function being called with arguments is looked up by name at runtime.
2019-09-05T11:41:12Z rain1: this is not how scheme must work, the value of a variable does not need to be looked up by name - it can be looked up by a pointer dereference
2019-09-05T11:41:32Z rain1: you can implement scheme this way but it's slower
2019-09-05T11:42:14Z plugd: I think the wikipedia entry is talking about semantics, not implementation.
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2019-09-05T11:44:42Z rain1: lexical scope and lambda calculus gives the semantics for scheme
2019-09-05T11:45:53Z cpressey: The way I see it is, when you say (define a (lambda () x)), x is bound to a global x which has an undefined value. A subsequent (define x 3) may change x's value, as if it were (set! x 3).
2019-09-05T11:46:19Z cpressey: (or: when you say (define a (lambda () x)), your Scheme implementation complains that x is not bound.  The spec allows that behaviour too.)
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2019-09-05T11:54:58Z plugd: rain1: Hrm, I only just noticed that the wikipedia page on "late binding" treats it as synonymous with "dynamic binding", which is obviously not lexical binding.
2019-09-05T11:55:06Z plugd: rain1: I thus retract my statements :-)
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2019-09-05T13:40:28Z Riastradh: mdhughes: In T, it was spelled (set (table-entry h 'foo) 1) instead, which reads a little better.
2019-09-05T14:02:32Z ecraven: in extended-by-generic-set!-and-generic-ref Scheme it would be (set! (ref table 'foo) 1)
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2019-09-05T14:56:21Z mdhughes: But in that case you may as well use (set! table 'foo 1) without the extra level. I use shortcuts (with some error handling) hget & hput!
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2019-09-05T15:01:26Z Riastradh: mdhughes: Not if you, say, write a macro in which (table-entry foo 'h) is a subform and want to use it as an lvalue and as an rvalue.
2019-09-05T15:04:15Z mdhughes: Sure, there it's actually useful. Though in hashtable's case, you're better off calling update.
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2019-09-05T15:09:53Z Riastradh: T also had (modify (table-entry t 'h) (lambda (v) ...)).
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2019-09-05T16:08:51Z jcowan: R[57]RS allows a Scheme to treat undefined variables as defined but not bound (that is, they exist but have no value, so it is an error to use them for anything).
2019-09-05T16:11:09Z jcowan: so in such a Scheme you can set! a variable that was previously unknown and it will be created as a global variable.
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2019-09-05T16:12:14Z jcowan: Chicken accepts (set! foo 32) at the top level (where foo is not defined); Chibi throws an exception; Guile prints a warning.
2019-09-05T16:12:52Z jcowan: R6RS systems probably won't allow this, as R6RS itself does not.
2019-09-05T16:14:24Z jcowan: Ypsilon throws an exception; Larceny might or might not (I don't have it installed currently), as Larceny is pretty free and easy about R6RS MUSTard.
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2019-09-05T16:18:15Z mdhughes: Chez is pretty forgiving.
2019-09-05T16:18:43Z mdhughes: … where's my pastie?
2019-09-05T16:19:01Z mdhughes: Oh, chicken. Wrong tab. https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=eaffa71fedcf4a6031f841232b445c1a96af02a5
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2019-09-05T16:22:27Z jcowan: Grr.  Annoying that both Chez and MIT's main executable is called "Scheme".
2019-09-05T16:22:52Z jcowan: er, "scheme"
2019-09-05T16:23:47Z gwatt: I've taken to building all flavors of chez and naming them scheme-$machine-type just in case
2019-09-05T16:23:49Z mdhughes: At least on Mac it's mit-scheme, and buried inside the app bundle so you'll never see it anyway.
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2019-09-05T16:44:51Z Riastradh: jcowan: Once upon a time, that was an appropriate choice to make!  scheme is now as symlink to mit-scheme-$ARCH for those of us who don't want to bother typing the whole name.
2019-09-05T16:46:13Z jcowan: Oh, sure.  And it's hardwired into Dybvig's fingers.
2019-09-05T16:48:52Z jcowan: I suppose if I installed them now (right now I have neither one) I'd just put them into different directory trees and have aliases.  Back when I was researching ImplementationContrasts, only Petite was available, so it wasn't a problem.
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2019-09-05T16:57:43Z gwatt: The chez scheme makefile allows you to change the exe name pretty easily
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2019-09-05T17:07:08Z jcowan: Good to know, thanks.
2019-09-05T17:07:30Z jcowan: There are a set of Docker images for each of many Schemes, but afaik none for all Schemes at once.
2019-09-05T17:13:51Z gwatt: jcowan: https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme/issues/4#issuecomment-214921460
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2019-09-05T17:40:09Z ecraven: larceny allows it, as does chez (both on the repl)
2019-09-05T17:40:09Z ecraven: chez does not allow it when running in whole program mode (Exception: attempt to assign unbound identifier x)
2019-09-05T17:47:17Z Riastradh: jcowan: I usually do /usr/local/<scheme>/<version>.
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2019-09-05T18:33:16Z ecraven: ah, that's so last-century, now you have hub.docker.com/<scheme>-<version>, and each of them includes the entire OS! so 2MB chibi gets blown up to 100MB or so :P
2019-09-05T18:33:24Z ecraven: anyway, I've started making alpine linux versions of containers, which are very small, just haven't gotten them all done yet :-/
2019-09-05T18:35:23Z jcowan: For me what would be most useful is a sinle Docker image of all reasonable Schemes
2019-09-05T18:35:47Z dwdv: Cool! Please keep us posted.
2019-09-05T18:36:12Z ecraven: one image with all of them combined?
2019-09-05T18:36:47Z ecraven: why would that be better than one for each?
2019-09-05T18:37:44Z jcowan: It's much easier to write a script that runs a given program in every Scheme.
2019-09-05T18:38:13Z ecraven: I've been working on that too :D
2019-09-05T18:38:26Z ecraven: but, alas, all of it vaporware so far
2019-09-05T18:49:18Z gwatt: I feel like a docker image with "all reasonable schemes" shouldn't be too hard. mostly it will just be very large and time consuming to update, especially if you have to build from source
2019-09-05T18:53:19Z tolja: ecraven: don't know much about docker, but you don't necessarily have to drag the whole os around. Here's an example: https://github.com/ricardbejarano/nginx
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2019-09-05T18:58:53Z jcowan: Updating isn't that crucial
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2019-09-06T01:53:06Z DrDuck: What's the proper way to load an mit-scheme file into geiser?
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2019-09-06T03:03:49Z mdhughes: Shouldn't your package manager just track all of them and update? 90% of the software I use is in MacPorts. Have to download DMGs or source for the rest.
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2019-09-06T06:09:47Z ecraven: mdhughes: most of the lesser-widespread
2019-09-06T06:09:47Z ecraven: Schemes are not packaged for all systems
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2019-09-06T12:31:01Z ecraven: ;)
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2019-09-06T20:40:53Z lavaflow: How do I use syntax-case to create a macro that outputs syntax that includes the ... symbol?
2019-09-06T20:41:59Z lavaflow: syntax-case is throwing errors at me about misusing ... because it's trying to use it to modify patterns or whatever, but there is no ... in my pattern.
2019-09-06T20:43:36Z lavaflow: basically just: (syntax-case stx () [(_ id) #'(list (file-row id) ...)])
2019-09-06T20:43:42Z lavaflow: (but that doesn't work)
2019-09-06T20:45:05Z lavaflow: oh, I think maybe I got it.   using quasiquote and #,'...
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2019-09-06T22:47:38Z max6: hi I am a beginner learning scheme, can someone help me why I have this error ?https://paste.debian.net/1099315/
2019-09-06T22:48:33Z max6:  expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments  given: "hello"  arguments...: [none]
2019-09-06T22:53:05Z max6: oh I fixed
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2019-09-06T23:24:37Z sodastab: is [ f(args)] syntactic sugar for (apply f args)
2019-09-06T23:24:41Z sodastab: oh he left
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2019-09-07T23:50:07Z jcowan: I'm writing a SRFI for "compound objects", a generalization of compound conditions.  The components of a compound object are called subobjects, but "compound-object-subobjects" (which returns a list of them) is rather verbose, and the other procedure names are lengthy too.  Anyone have an idea of an alternative name?
2019-09-07T23:51:14Z Riastradh: list
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2019-09-08T00:02:24Z daviid: jcowan: what is 'object' in this conttex, any arbitrary 'scheme object' or an oop 'thing'
2019-09-08T00:02:44Z jcowan: Arbitrary Scheme things
2019-09-08T00:03:47Z jcowan: The idea is that you can apply a predicate/accessor pair to a compound object and it will run the accessor on the first subobject that satisfies the predicate.  Compound objects are ordered and immutable.
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2019-09-08T00:08:09Z daviid: maybe calling them element(s), elt(s), not subobject, i'd use co-elts, co-ref, co-set! ... but sure yo like 'those shortcuts' for long names ...
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2019-09-08T00:29:07Z daviid: *not sure you like ...
2019-09-08T00:33:40Z DrDuck: Anyone know if Kawa supports JDK 11?
2019-09-08T00:36:20Z daviid: DrDuck: since nobody answered that same question on #kawa, i'd post to the kawa ml - which unlike #kawa, mostely silent, is extremely responsive
2019-09-08T00:37:03Z Riastradh: (accessor (find predicate list))?
2019-09-08T00:38:13Z daviid: (define (co-elts pred acc) (...))
2019-09-08T00:40:40Z daviid: not even sure i would use the word 'object' for any of these compounds 'thing(s)' in the first place
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2019-09-08T03:10:32Z ArthurStrong: Am I right I can simulate Haskell-like lazy evaluation in Scheme if I add "lazy" on every function's argument?
2019-09-08T03:21:44Z la_zaifir: Heh, not in any Scheme I'm familiar with.
2019-09-08T03:24:43Z ArthurStrong: or, I meant "delay"
2019-09-08T03:25:47Z la_zaifir: Can you give an example?
2019-09-08T03:26:37Z ArthurStrong: I'm reading http://www.shido.info/lisp/scheme_lazy_e.html
2019-09-08T03:27:06Z ArthurStrong: If I add "delay" to everything, at the very end of function I get a big unevaluated graph
2019-09-08T03:27:15Z ArthurStrong: Isn't it the same as lazy evaluation in Haskell?
2019-09-08T03:28:49Z la_zaifir: delay just delays the evaluation of an expression.  Unlike Haskell's auto-forcing behavior, you've got to call (force ...) manually in Scheme.
2019-09-08T03:29:27Z ArthurStrong: la_zaifir: OK, If I call "force" at the very end of this big "delayed" tree?
2019-09-08T03:31:37Z la_zaifir: It depends on the structure, but that will likely just force the first value.  You'll need a procedure that fully-evaluates a lazy structure to see the whole thing. (Again, probably.  I don't know how your tree is implemented.)
2019-09-08T03:33:06Z la_zaifir: ArthurStrong: Take a look at lazy-sequence code in that page you linked and think of how you'd recursively force every value in a sequence.
2019-09-08T03:33:21Z la_zaifir: s/at/at that/
2019-09-08T03:33:46Z ArthurStrong: OK
2019-09-08T03:34:50Z ArthurStrong: by default, when I write (if x y z), when x/y/z gets evaluated? Do both y/z evaluated? Or interpreter decides, based on the value of x?
2019-09-08T03:37:11Z la_zaifir: What do you think?  What happens if you evaluate (if #t 'foo (crash-the-system))?
2019-09-08T03:37:21Z ArthurStrong: I just don't know
2019-09-08T03:37:34Z ArthurStrong: It would be better to delay evaluations of y/z
2019-09-08T03:38:50Z la_zaifir: rudybot: eval (if #t 'foo (letrec ((f (lambda () (f)))) (f)))
2019-09-08T03:38:58Z rudybot: la_zaifir: your sandbox is ready
2019-09-08T03:38:58Z rudybot: la_zaifir: ; Value: 'foo
2019-09-08T03:39:19Z la_zaifir: rudybot: You're still alive, right?
2019-09-08T03:39:20Z rudybot: la_zaifir: still perfectly alive i'd say, *several* posts every year, moving right along
2019-09-08T03:39:21Z ArthurStrong: For example: (if cond (+ a b) (+ c d)) <- do both pluses are evaluated before "if"?
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2019-09-08T03:40:14Z la_zaifir: Wait, you need to rewrite that.  Is `cond' the test of the `if'?
2019-09-08T03:40:28Z ArthurStrong: ouch
2019-09-08T03:40:49Z ArthurStrong: cond is condition, which maybe true or false
2019-09-08T03:41:28Z ArthurStrong: (if (> a b) (+ z y) (+ q w))
2019-09-08T03:41:38Z ArthurStrong: do both pluses gets evaluated before if?
2019-09-08T03:42:44Z la_zaifir: No.  To evaluate that, (> a b) is evaluated.  If the value isn't false, (+ z y) gets evaluated, etc.
2019-09-08T03:42:50Z ArthurStrong: isn't it better to delay evaluation of both pluses? And to force them when condition is computed?
2019-09-08T03:42:57Z la_zaifir: Why?
2019-09-08T03:43:15Z ArthurStrong: OK, so by default, interpreter evaluates condition, then pick a path, right?
2019-09-08T03:43:19Z la_zaifir: Right.
2019-09-08T03:43:22Z ArthurStrong: OK, I see
2019-09-08T03:43:35Z ArthurStrong: thanks
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2019-09-08T03:43:50Z la_zaifir: ...
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2019-09-08T05:26:15Z mdhughes: ArthurStrong: if is a special form. Unlike a normal function it doesn't eval everything up front.
2019-09-08T05:27:15Z mdhughes: You can think of it as (if test (lambda () truecase) (lambda () falsecase))
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2019-09-08T07:03:13Z emma: is there any online scheme interpreter?
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2019-09-08T07:17:57Z weinholt: emma, http://eval.ironscheme.net/
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2019-09-08T08:13:09Z wasamasa: there's this website with lots of interpreters/compilers on it
2019-09-08T08:13:14Z wasamasa: IIRC it offers guile
2019-09-08T08:14:23Z wasamasa: repl.it offers biwascheme
2019-09-08T08:15:48Z wasamasa: there's bound to be more, like https://tio.run/
2019-09-08T08:16:17Z wasamasa: ah, I was thinking of https://ideone.com/
2019-09-08T08:16:30Z wasamasa: it offers guile, stalin and CHICKEN
2019-09-08T08:16:33Z wasamasa: because why not, lol
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2019-09-08T10:57:22Z lockywolf: What does cisco need its own scheme for?
2019-09-08T10:57:36Z lockywolf: I mean, Chez is hosted on Cisco's github.
2019-09-08T10:58:47Z wasamasa: have you considered that they merely happen to own its copyright?
2019-09-08T10:59:08Z wasamasa: chez was a thing before that
2019-09-08T10:59:46Z wasamasa: > Cadence Research Systems developed Chez Scheme until the company was purchased by Cisco Systems in 2011[6]. Cisco open-sourced Chez Scheme in 2016[7].
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2019-09-08T12:23:55Z jcowan: Cisco uses, or has used, Chez for something internally in the past, we don't know what.
2019-09-08T12:33:19Z wasamasa: maybe I should research cisco hardware and find a CVE of my own
2019-09-08T12:33:24Z wasamasa: bonus if it involves chez
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2019-09-08T15:14:15Z dto: hi wasamasa funny seeing u here
2019-09-08T15:14:17Z dto: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/KXgooiMU/Screenshot%20from%202019-09-08%2002-11-30.png
2019-09-08T15:14:29Z dto: progress report
2019-09-08T15:15:02Z dto: mixing elisp and scheme in a spreadsheet. also graphics are supported. but i lost the old screenshots.
2019-09-08T15:15:32Z dto: the spreadsheet mode is from 2006 but i resurrected it as a fancy GUI for SchemeMosaic projects and sequences.
2019-09-08T15:17:07Z dto: how is everyone?
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2019-09-08T15:58:34Z ecraven: that looks interesting
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2019-09-08T16:16:58Z dto: hi ecraven hows your day
2019-09-08T16:16:59Z dto: thanks :)
2019-09-08T16:17:09Z dto: cut and paste broke somehow but i'll fix it. :)
2019-09-08T16:19:08Z dto: ecraven: i built a bridge between this spreadsheet mode and ecasound.el back then. i am also dusting off that code :)
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2019-09-08T16:41:18Z ecraven: dto: is it a spreadsheet frontend mode in emacs, with the backend in Scheme?
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2019-09-08T16:53:13Z dto: nope!
2019-09-08T16:53:18Z dto: ecraven: will explain in a little bit.
2019-09-08T16:54:55Z dto: The spreadsheet is written in emacs list
2019-09-08T16:54:59Z dto: Lisp but
2019-09-08T16:55:48Z dto: You can execute expressions that are in the different spreadsheet cells
2019-09-08T16:55:48Z ecraven: please do, very interesting!
2019-09-08T16:56:25Z dto: Either in emacs, and today I'm writing a future to collect all the cells into an S expression to send for scheme interpretation for when the contents of the spreadsheets are especially related to my scheme projects that chops up sounds. That's why I'm saying this is a front end do a scheme program, but it could be used for other people's emacs programs as well
2019-09-08T16:56:36Z dto: Future should say feature
2019-09-08T16:57:07Z dto: If you haven't seen my scheme projects that jobs that sounds, I can send you the link
2019-09-08T16:57:15Z dto: https://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el
2019-09-08T16:57:38Z dto: That should say chops up sounds. Sorry I'm using speech to text
2019-09-08T17:04:01Z ecraven: I'd be very interested in a spreadsheet like Lotus Improv in emacs
2019-09-08T17:04:14Z ecraven: I've never used improv, but for some problems, it seems to be a much better match than the traditional spreadsheet model
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2019-09-08T17:57:28Z wasamasa: dto: very interesting
2019-09-08T17:57:44Z wasamasa: dto: perhaps you'll want to show off at emacs conf
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2019-09-08T17:57:51Z dto: hey wasamasa perhaps :)
2019-09-08T17:57:53Z dto: where is it located?
2019-09-08T17:57:57Z wasamasa: it's virtual
2019-09-08T17:58:06Z wasamasa: just be online at the right moment
2019-09-08T17:58:17Z wasamasa: I've handed in a proposal but was told only lightning talk slots are available
2019-09-08T18:35:28Z la_zaifir: "I wonder what would happen, if there were a language so complicated, so difficult to learn, that nobody would ever be able to swamp the market with programmers?"
2019-09-08T18:35:39Z la_zaifir: Oops, disregard!
2019-09-08T18:37:44Z wasamasa: did you just take a pot shot at scala
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2019-09-08T18:38:04Z wasamasa: ok, no, C++
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2019-09-08T19:24:01Z dto: cool wasamasa i could do a lightning talk
2019-09-08T19:26:51Z wasamasa: alright, then /query bandali
2019-09-08T19:27:03Z wasamasa: https://emacsconf.org/2019/cfp
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2019-09-08T19:34:10Z jcowan: For that it doesn't have to be complicated and difficult, just seem so, hence Common Lisp.
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2019-09-08T19:48:24Z jcowan: ecraven: I have used Quantrix Modeler on a free trial; it's amazing.
2019-09-08T19:48:53Z ecraven: I'm just fighting windows 3.1, trying to install improv ;)
2019-09-08T19:49:06Z ecraven: from floppy images, it doesn't want to install from a directory containing all the files...
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2019-09-08T19:50:32Z wasamasa: windows 3.1 ._.
2019-09-08T19:51:28Z jcowan: IIRC I ran Improv in Win95, if that's easier to get a hold of.
2019-09-08T19:52:04Z jcowan: https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/23/17773180/microsoft-windows-95-app-download-features <-- for MacOS, Linux, or modern Windows.
2019-09-08T19:53:38Z ecraven: just managed to get it running. I mainly wanted to record the entire Tour, to see how things work ;)
2019-09-08T19:53:42Z ecraven: I'll do that tomorrow.. good night!
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2019-09-08T19:54:54Z jcowan: You can also run Lotus Agenda on DOSBox now
2019-09-08T19:55:51Z ecraven: I never used that, does it have good ideas?
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2019-09-08T20:43:46Z jcowan: Brilliant.  Agenda is to PIMs (and personal databases generally) as Improv is to spreadsheets.  2.0, and the road not taken.
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2019-09-08T22:24:01Z Tirifto: Hello! Is there an elegant way I can note down a list and have its elements evaluated, but prevent an application? For instance, if I write ("abc" +), Scheme tries to apply "abc" and complains about wrong type (as expected). If I write '("abc" +), it seems I can no longer get the procedure named + when it's quoted. Quasiquotation apparently works with `(,"abc" ,+), but I was wondering if there was a cleaner way readily available.
2019-09-08T22:25:02Z pjb: (list "abc" +)
2019-09-08T22:26:45Z Tirifto: Ah, so list for lists and cons for pairs is the best I can use in that regard?
2019-09-08T22:30:54Z Tirifto: I was trying to find a way to just write the structures, rather than instructions for their construction. (Either can work though.)
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2019-09-08T23:06:29Z Tirifto: Thank you, pjb, at any rate! :)
2019-09-08T23:06:44Z gwatt: Tirifto: you can also use "quote". (quote ("abc" +)), also written '("abc" +) Note that this will process "+" as the symbol + not the procedure
2019-09-08T23:06:57Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (list "abc" +)
2019-09-08T23:06:58Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2019-09-08T23:06:58Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: '("abc" #<procedure:+>)
2019-09-08T23:07:07Z gwatt: rudybot: eval '("abc" +)
2019-09-08T23:07:07Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: '("abc" +)
2019-09-08T23:09:55Z Tirifto: gwatt: Thanks; I did try that, but I do need to get back the procedure eventually.
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2019-09-09T03:43:04Z mdhughes: ((eval (cadr '("abc" +))) 1 2)
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2019-09-09T03:48:55Z pjb: mdhughes: you forgot that scheme eval takes a 2nd argument!
2019-09-09T03:49:15Z pjb: mdhughes: but don't worry, you won't be bothered to write CLisms here.  It's a favor reserved to me…
2019-09-09T03:50:13Z mdhughes: I just wrote that in csi.
2019-09-09T03:50:40Z mdhughes: environment is optional in the spec, isn't it?
2019-09-09T03:50:58Z pjb: This is not what I see in r5rs or in r7rs.
2019-09-09T03:52:59Z mdhughes: Huh. Spec doesn't show it optional. http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Module%20scheme#eval shows (eval expression [environment-specifier])
2019-09-09T03:53:34Z mdhughes: Chez accepts it, too.
2019-09-09T03:55:26Z mdhughes: MIT barfs. Which is weird I forgot that, I think I redefined it in my old prelude.
2019-09-09T03:55:29Z Riastradh: It is not a priori clear what the environment should be if you don't specify it.
2019-09-09T03:59:38Z mdhughes: Chicken and Chez use (interaction-environment) as the default, which seems reasonable unless you're sandboxing.
2019-09-09T04:00:14Z Riastradh: What's the `interaction environment' in a noninteractive application?
2019-09-09T04:01:27Z mdhughes: It states it pretty clearly in the spec.
2019-09-09T04:05:28Z Riastradh: `contains an implementation-defined set of bindings, typically a superset of those {listed in the report, exposed by (scheme base)}' {R5RS, R7RS} does not strike me as `pretty clear'.
2019-09-09T04:05:53Z mdhughes: "The intent is that this procedure will return the environment in which the imple- mentation would evaluate expressions dynamically typed by the user."
2019-09-09T04:06:08Z Riastradh: ...which is not clear in a noninteractive environment!
2019-09-09T04:07:12Z mdhughes: What's a "non-interactive environment"? If you have read and eval, you're interactive.
2019-09-09T04:07:53Z mdhughes: There's no definition of "non-interactive" in the spec. That's your term.
2019-09-09T04:08:11Z Riastradh: `dynamically typed by the user' is the `spec's term.
2019-09-09T04:08:37Z Riastradh: Are you suggesting that interaction-environment be understood to mean whatever environment eval uses by default?
2019-09-09T04:10:05Z mdhughes: "would evaluate". If the Scheme has a REPL, it has an interaction-environment.
2019-09-09T04:11:12Z Riastradh: So, in an application that does not involve a REPL...
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2019-09-09T04:11:30Z mdhughes: Anyway, here's a nice portable version:
2019-09-09T04:11:30Z mdhughes: (define (symeval sym) (eval sym (interaction-environment))) ;; or (scheme-report-environment 5)
2019-09-09T04:11:31Z mdhughes: ((symeval (cadr '("abc" +))) 1 2)
2019-09-09T04:12:36Z mdhughes: Angels, heads of pins, fantastical non-REPL-having Schemes that still have eval, not my problem.
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2019-09-09T04:48:26Z la_zaifir: (cond-expand (pinhead-scheme (set! angel-count +inf.0)))
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2019-09-09T05:18:51Z lockywolf: How do I draw the box-and-pointer notation the easiest way?
2019-09-09T05:19:12Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks for pointing it out. you don't happen to know of a list of those "old applications that did great things that just didn't go mainstream"?
2019-09-09T05:19:33Z ecraven: I wasn't of age to use that sort of productivity apps back then (though I know most of the games of that era ;)
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2019-09-09T05:22:14Z lockywolf_: ecraven, try Microsoft Bob
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2019-09-09T05:23:12Z lockywolf_: I have concocted the following piece of dot:
2019-09-09T05:23:14Z lockywolf_: http://paste.debian.net/1099614/
2019-09-09T05:23:22Z lockywolf_: But the "tailport" seems to be ignored.
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2019-09-09T06:25:35Z ecraven: not sure about this exactly, but some parts of dot syntax are only implemented by specific renderers
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2019-09-09T06:42:40Z ecraven: just in case anyone is interested: improv tour: https://vimeo.com/358732181 and https://vimeo.com/358732226
2019-09-09T06:42:53Z ecraven: actually a really decent overview.. is there anything like this for Lotus Agenda?
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2019-09-09T06:44:08Z mdhughes: I used Lotus Notes way back when it was like a forum thing with some kind of scripting. Decent for project management, but most users hated it because they didn't even try to read the manual.
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2019-09-09T07:00:14Z ecraven: lockywolf_: so from looking at videos, microsoft bob is not what I'm looking for, but things like interleaf, lotus agenda and lotus improv are ;)
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2019-09-09T07:53:02Z mdhughes: Also you want to look at the handheld PIMs, like Psion and Sharp Wizard. I had a PC-8 handheld, then a Psion, then went to Palm, which had the best PIM programs ever written.
2019-09-09T07:55:29Z mdhughes: s/PC-8/PC-3/
2019-09-09T08:03:24Z ecraven: don't get me wrong, I like org-mode, but it seems there is still room for improving things further..
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2019-09-09T08:11:02Z ecraven: maybe I shouldn't play around so much with old software... somehow it seems we - as the software industry - don't really work on *improving* things as much as in codifying whatever sells best
2019-09-09T08:14:42Z ecraven: I have the same feeling with Open Genera.. (and to a lesser degree with Emacs).. *that* is how a software system should be, self-documenting, code viewable and editable all the way down...
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2019-09-09T08:26:17Z lockywolf_: Emacs is good.
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2019-09-09T09:05:01Z mdhughes: Emacs is mediocre at everything it does. As I just said on Fediverse, it's a knockoff swiss army knife. A power tool designed for one purpose will always be better at that purpose.
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2019-09-09T09:08:30Z ecraven: mdhughes: I disagree, I think
2019-09-09T09:08:59Z ecraven: the point is, I hardly ever work with *one* tool, I need to move data around between applications
2019-09-09T09:09:56Z lockywolf_: ecraven, most of the old software is not very good at this
2019-09-09T09:10:21Z lockywolf_: Emacs excluded
2019-09-09T09:10:32Z ecraven: no, but having everything be as much text as possible makes Emacs ok at this
2019-09-09T09:10:50Z mdhughes: Sure, and that's why I script a lot. awk, perl, python, now Scheme. Nice editors make it easy to dump your text into a script, but don't make you use that editor's scripting.
2019-09-09T09:10:54Z ecraven: also, Emacs offers a decent *editor*, which I can now use for everything that involves writing
2019-09-09T09:11:24Z ecraven: I don't have to use half-hearted and mostly-broken implementations of vi-bindings in ten different applications
2019-09-09T09:11:44Z lockywolf_: well, emacs-bindings are also not very well done
2019-09-09T09:11:55Z ecraven: yea, thus I just use Emacs directly ;)
2019-09-09T09:12:07Z lockywolf_: did you try EdWin?
2019-09-09T09:12:10Z ecraven: yes
2019-09-09T09:12:23Z ecraven: *iff* it supported unicode and colours, I would be using it exclusively, and writing lots of modes for it
2019-09-09T09:12:34Z ecraven: but sadly those two are not optional for me
2019-09-09T09:12:54Z mdhughes: <shrug> I've been on a Mac for 15 years. So I don't mind the emacs line-editing keys, which are used in all text areas in all native apps, but the meta-bucky-shift-slidetrombone-Q stuff I can do without.
2019-09-09T09:12:58Z ecraven: I wrote a patch to add colour support, it might still be somewhere... but it was never good enough quality to merger
2019-09-09T09:13:02Z lockywolf_: I think that the fact that Emacs has three IRC clients and no standard scheme interpreter is a disgrace though.
2019-09-09T09:13:15Z ecraven: lockywolf_: why? just pick one you like, and use it
2019-09-09T09:13:27Z lockywolf_: lol
2019-09-09T09:13:32Z ecraven: it would be better if it had one IRC *library*, but for frontends? that's ok
2019-09-09T09:13:59Z lockywolf_: because where are whose thousands of developers who are developing code for the standard Emacs Scheme?
2019-09-09T09:14:04Z lockywolf_: I don't see them.
2019-09-09T09:14:26Z ecraven: what do you mean by "standard emacs scheme"? emacs running in a Scheme, or Scheme interaction for emacs?
2019-09-09T09:14:39Z ecraven: there are many modes, including my r7rs-swank (mostly experimental)
2019-09-09T09:14:48Z lockywolf_: Frankly, I only learned Emacs Lisp because I needed to bodge some hooks to call scheme from Emacs. But now I love Emacs Lisp more than Scheme
2019-09-09T09:14:50Z ecraven: I use r7rs-swank with chez scheme every day
2019-09-09T09:15:00Z ecraven: that's ok too ;)
2019-09-09T09:16:18Z ecraven: but I seriously love that if I want to know how something in Emacs works, I can just look at the source, even into C. the same is true for Genera (which I don't know well :-/)
2019-09-09T09:16:29Z ecraven: you can modify the running system, to fit your needs. that is what I like
2019-09-09T09:16:33Z lockywolf_: swank is this common lispish thingy?
2019-09-09T09:16:36Z lockywolf_: slime?
2019-09-09T09:16:42Z ecraven: yes, I mostly use it for the emacs interface.
2019-09-09T09:16:52Z lockywolf_: why don't you use geiser?
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2019-09-09T09:16:53Z ecraven: it can do things that none of the others (e.g. geiser) do
2019-09-09T09:17:06Z lockywolf_: it even mimics emacs's xscheme-mode
2019-09-09T09:17:08Z ecraven: because geiser is - last time I tried - still inferior to slime
2019-09-09T09:17:22Z ecraven: I contributed to geiser, so I don't have anything against it
2019-09-09T09:17:41Z lockywolf_: I contributed to geiser, and I do have something against it.
2019-09-09T09:18:03Z ecraven: for example, slime's presentations (while not ideal, because non-nestable) are great
2019-09-09T09:18:07Z lockywolf_: But I'm still surprised that a common lisp tool fits scheme better than a native tool.
2019-09-09T09:18:18Z ecraven: I've used slime's support for images a lot, I can show (generated) images inline in the repl
2019-09-09T09:18:33Z lockywolf_: I guess, as long as it's sexpy, it's still lisp.
2019-09-09T09:18:46Z ecraven: well, geiser probably fits Scheme better, but the *emacs* part of that interface in slime is just more full-featured than geiser (so far)
2019-09-09T09:19:01Z lockywolf_: But I'm surprised that it doesn't blow the whole system into pieces.
2019-09-09T09:19:09Z ecraven: "it"?
2019-09-09T09:19:16Z lockywolf_: slime-scheme
2019-09-09T09:19:33Z ecraven: I'm using it on 2-3 Schemes regularly, the things I do work fine
2019-09-09T09:19:55Z ecraven: some day, I'll write a proper Scheme listener, but that involves more Emacs-fu than I have right now
2019-09-09T09:20:02Z lockywolf_: I'm trying solve SICP in r7rs, using the reference implementation. So far it goes painfully.
2019-09-09T09:20:04Z ecraven: also, I don't even want it to be in Emacs, but that's the best option at the moment
2019-09-09T09:20:16Z ecraven: what is the reference implementation?
2019-09-09T09:20:19Z lockywolf_: chibi
2019-09-09T09:20:34Z lockywolf_: chibi is, like, the only complete r7rs-large
2019-09-09T09:20:39Z ecraven: I've heard good things about racket's support for SICP. and I love MIT/GNU Scheme ;)
2019-09-09T09:20:58Z lockywolf_: that's not the point, right?
2019-09-09T09:21:35Z lockywolf_: the point is not to make sicp bow to racket, but to have a reference implementation good enough to pass sicp
2019-09-09T09:21:50Z ecraven: that's definitely not the point..
2019-09-09T09:21:53Z ecraven: r7rs is unrelated to sicp
2019-09-09T09:22:00Z ecraven: sicp uses a modified r4rs, I think
2019-09-09T09:22:24Z lockywolf_: so far the best property of Chibi I have found is that (expt 2.0 14) freezes the interpreter
2019-09-09T09:22:34Z lockywolf_: sicp is just a book
2019-09-09T09:23:27Z lockywolf_: it's a responsibility of a tool to fit the goal, not the goal to fit a tool
2019-09-09T09:23:35Z ecraven: i
2019-09-09T09:23:43Z ecraven: I don't think it is chibi's goal to fit SICP?
2019-09-09T09:24:00Z lockywolf_: I'm not a chibi boss
2019-09-09T09:24:19Z lockywolf_: But I do think that anything claiming to be scheme must be able to pass sicp
2019-09-09T09:25:02Z ecraven: well, what do you mean by "pass"?
2019-09-09T09:25:19Z ecraven: you can definitely run all the code in SICP, with some minor modifications, in any of the existing r7rs Schemes
2019-09-09T09:25:27Z lockywolf_: that's not true
2019-09-09T09:25:33Z ecraven: where are you running into problems?
2019-09-09T09:25:39Z lockywolf_: as I said, (expt 2.0 14)
2019-09-09T09:25:54Z ecraven: that works totally fine on my machine
2019-09-09T09:25:59Z lockywolf_: on chibi?
2019-09-09T09:26:02Z ecraven: in chibi. just tried it, 16384.0
2019-09-09T09:26:08Z lockywolf_: try
2019-09-09T09:26:15Z lockywolf_: (expt 2 14.0)
2019-09-09T09:26:22Z ecraven: what does chibi -V say on your machine?
2019-09-09T09:26:26Z lockywolf_: -master
2019-09-09T09:26:35Z ecraven: that hangs
2019-09-09T09:26:39Z ecraven: as I said, that is just a plain bug
2019-09-09T09:27:05Z ecraven: (expt 2 1.0) hangs too
2019-09-09T09:27:13Z ecraven: seems to be related to second argument being inexact
2019-09-09T09:27:21Z lockywolf_: and it would have been kept uncovered unless I have tried to solve sicp problems using chibi
2019-09-09T09:27:56Z ecraven: no idea, might be known, might be fixed in git.
2019-09-09T09:28:22Z lockywolf_: if it is known it is known because I reported it
2019-09-09T09:28:58Z lockywolf_: this is exactly what I mean by needing a standard emacs-scheme
2019-09-09T09:29:11Z ecraven: I've started work on r7rs-coverage, which is meant to check for support of different functions
2019-09-09T09:29:22Z ecraven: that might become a test case for things like this
2019-09-09T09:29:28Z lockywolf_: such bugs would be unimaginable if there was an 'emacs-scheme'
2019-09-09T09:30:32Z lockywolf_: I'm not against a variety of implementations. A choice is a good thing.
2019-09-09T09:31:43Z lockywolf_: But someone needs to care about quality as much as most schemers care about design.
2019-09-09T09:32:05Z ecraven: well, try different Schemes
2019-09-09T09:32:19Z lockywolf_: no, I don't want to try different schemes
2019-09-09T09:32:28Z lockywolf_: one is enough
2019-09-09T09:32:40Z ecraven: fine as well, but don't expect chibi's maintainers to care about the same things you do (unless you pay them)
2019-09-09T09:32:41Z lockywolf_: hm...
2019-09-09T09:33:48Z lockywolf_: that's exactly why I am using sicp, not some obscure irrelevant example ;)
2019-09-09T09:34:10Z ecraven: SICP is not some sort of standard, it's just one book. r7rs is the standard now
2019-09-09T09:34:51Z lockywolf_: well, true, but being nice to the most (by far) common application for scheme is still a good thing
2019-09-09T09:35:36Z lockywolf_: perhaps trying to make SICM work as well would also be a worthy goal
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2019-09-09T09:36:45Z ecraven: well, racket does exactly that, it has a separate mode just for SICP
2019-09-09T09:37:01Z lockywolf_: and bless racket for that.
2019-09-09T09:37:47Z lockywolf_: I wonder if it is worth making an srfi for an emacs-scheme interface...
2019-09-09T09:38:19Z ecraven: people have been talking about some standard language server protocol lately
2019-09-09T09:38:34Z ecraven: kawa plans to (or has already?) implement it
2019-09-09T09:38:45Z lockywolf_: not like xscheme, but an actual interface which would allow passing if not #objects but at least references to #objects
2019-09-09T09:39:11Z lockywolf_: but #objects I mean nonserializable entities
2019-09-09T09:40:07Z ecraven: that's what presentations in slime do
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2019-09-09T09:40:19Z ecraven: it already works in r7rs-swank, and some others might implement this too
2019-09-09T09:41:24Z lockywolf_: are they working on it while not yet having a draft srfi for it?
2019-09-09T09:42:38Z ecraven: why would you need an srfi? it's a protocol that already exists
2019-09-09T09:42:51Z ecraven: also, this is highly implementation-specific, not sure an srfi would be much good
2019-09-09T09:43:11Z ecraven: don't get me wrong, it *would* be nice to have an srfi that allows getting information from implementations
2019-09-09T09:43:15Z ecraven: but that is not lsp-specific
2019-09-09T09:43:52Z lockywolf_: ecraven, well, 'a lisp object' is a thing that is fairly often referred to
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2019-09-09T09:44:59Z lockywolf_: it would be at least nice to guarantee that a non-printable object is still readable at least within the same closure
2019-09-09T09:45:55Z lockywolf_: although I'm not qualified enough to discuss feasibility of such a thing
2019-09-09T09:46:18Z ecraven: I'm not sure how useful that would be. but look up common lisp "presentations", they do much more than what you want, I think
2019-09-09T09:46:33Z rain1: which objects are non printable objects?
2019-09-09T09:47:08Z ecraven: technically, they are non-readable ;)
2019-09-09T09:47:34Z rain1: asking lockywolf_
2019-09-09T09:47:46Z lockywolf_: #<Environment 140343172269504>
2019-09-09T09:50:24Z lockywolf_: I would like to get if from an interpreter in Emacs, print, and then pass back to some other function.
2019-09-09T09:50:34Z lockywolf_: Without actually peeking inside.
2019-09-09T09:50:37Z ecraven: as you can see, it can be printed
2019-09-09T09:50:40Z ecraven: it just cannot be read again
2019-09-09T09:50:58Z rain1: "if"?
2019-09-09T09:51:01Z ecraven: I don't think there are any un-printable objects in any Scheme
2019-09-09T09:51:10Z lockywolf_: I'm not a lojbanista. Not everything I type is unambiguous.
2019-09-09T09:51:32Z lockywolf_: And I don't assume people who I am talking to to be advanced scheme REPLs.
2019-09-09T09:52:32Z rain1: > I would like to get if from an interpreter in Emacs, print, and then pass back to some other function.
2019-09-09T09:52:34Z rain1: I didn't understand this
2019-09-09T09:52:40Z rain1: what is it you want to do?
2019-09-09T09:52:50Z lockywolf_: rain1, I don't remember subscribing to a personal spell-checker service, although it's a nice thing to have, thank you.
2019-09-09T09:52:59Z rain1: ok im putting you on ignore
2019-09-09T09:53:13Z lockywolf_: As if you ever said anything not insulting.
2019-09-09T09:54:27Z lockywolf_: As I said, a REPL is giving me this unreadable #<Environment 140343172269504>. I am passing the output of a REPL to Emacs, as a REPL is the most generic interface available. In
2019-09-09T09:54:53Z lockywolf_: Emacs I want to make something involving this "#<Environment 140343172269504>" and pass it back to repl.
2019-09-09T09:55:29Z lockywolf_: So far it is not possible, because the repl would refuse to accept anything starting with a hash.
2019-09-09T09:56:07Z lockywolf_: And that is okay as long as the REPL is only a debugging tool.
2019-09-09T09:56:39Z lockywolf_: That is, I can always do (let ((a (make-environment))) (do-stuff a))
2019-09-09T09:56:43Z ecraven: see, I told you multiple times that there are repls that can do this.
2019-09-09T09:56:54Z lockywolf_: ecraven, I belive you!
2019-09-09T09:56:59Z ecraven: even for chibi
2019-09-09T09:57:05Z lockywolf_: I'm not saying there are not such repls.
2019-09-09T09:57:31Z lockywolf_: I just don't know how to google for such a behaviour.
2019-09-09T09:57:58Z ecraven: I told you, in CL it is called "presentations"
2019-09-09T09:58:20Z lockywolf_: Is there a scheme name?
2019-09-09T09:58:42Z ecraven: I don't think so
2019-09-09T09:58:55Z ecraven: as none of the "normal" Scheme repls has this.. MIT has something like this with #<number> for back-references
2019-09-09T09:59:17Z dwdv: Yes, that's how it works in gambit as well.
2019-09-09T09:59:27Z dwdv: Just pass #xyz to a function.
2019-09-09T10:00:30Z lockywolf_: So why having such a behaviour documented as an srfi would be a bad thing?
2019-09-09T10:01:28Z lockywolf_: ecraven, I just searched for scheme cl presentations, and got a bunch of PPTs of junior scheming politicians .
2019-09-09T10:01:33Z lockywolf_: *from
2019-09-09T10:01:41Z lockywolf_: ;)
2019-09-09T10:02:39Z ecraven: lockywolf_: google: clim presentation types
2019-09-09T10:03:25Z lockywolf_: ⌣
2019-09-09T10:03:41Z lockywolf_: got it. thanks
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2019-09-09T11:04:06Z nly: can i have nested defines within a define without a wrapping lambda or let? (define foo (define bar ...) bar)?
2019-09-09T11:04:33Z ecraven: nly: (define foo (begin (define bar ...) bar)) might work
2019-09-09T11:05:35Z nly: no luck
2019-09-09T11:06:24Z ecraven: what about (define foo (let () (define ..) ..))
2019-09-09T11:07:55Z nly: it works, thanks :)
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2019-09-09T12:42:14Z jcowan: ecraven: No, nor do I have a list of "neighbors whose house is on fire", though there is even a name for them: _ucalegon_
2019-09-09T12:44:19Z jcowan: One-argument eval is an error in R[57]RS, which means that an implementation can do whatever it wants to: supply (interaction-environment), throw an error, crash, make demons fly out of your nose.
2019-09-09T12:44:26Z jcowan: Yes, YOUR nose!
2019-09-09T12:46:21Z jcowan: As for impl-env, it is the only mutable environment that R7RS guarantees to exist, but only if the library (scheme repl) is available.  Note that the presence of this library suggests, but does not require, the presence of a REPL.
2019-09-09T12:46:37Z ecraven: thanks, never heard that word before
2019-09-09T12:47:03Z jcowan: Practically nobody has, I'm just ... strange.
2019-09-09T12:47:20Z ecraven: ukalegontic ;) that sounds good
2019-09-09T12:48:38Z jcowan: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:Ucalegon#English <-- see esp. the last quotation, which explains the origin
2019-09-09T12:50:14Z ecraven: just read up on it on wikipedia ;)
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2019-09-09T13:19:35Z astronavt___ is now known as astronavt
2019-09-09T13:24:39Z jcowan: there is not afaik a word for "neighbor with whose partner you are having an affair", though, much less a (hyphenated?) word for someone who is both at once.
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2019-09-09T13:29:47Z ecraven: well, with some knowledge of greek, should be possible to come up with something ;)
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2019-09-09T20:27:16Z amz3: fwiw, https://scheme-lang.com is back online (same as before)
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2019-09-09T23:05:49Z enderby-: in theory, if i write something in r6rs scheme with guile, i can expect it to run in another r6rs scheme, right?
2019-09-09T23:07:46Z daviid: enderby-: yes, in practice too, if you don't use any guile specific feature/procs
2019-09-09T23:09:30Z enderby-: thanks, does anyone really do that though? (write something strictly in an rnrs)
2019-09-09T23:15:14Z belmarca: it depends on what you want to do. see http://ikarus-scheme.org/r6rs-libraries/index.html for an example
2019-09-09T23:15:47Z belmarca: this library can be adopted by whoever
2019-09-09T23:21:45Z enderby-: kk, i do think i prefer the idea of portable code. i really dislike all the implementation-specific libraries and syntax, and it seems like adhering to rnrs is the "right" thing to do
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2019-09-09T23:36:16Z belmarca: it is a noble goal but I suspect a lot more code written is implementation-specific - to a point
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2019-09-10T00:12:57Z mdhughes: R6RS at least mostly *can* be written cross-implementation, everything else needs so many other libraries to do useful work.
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2019-09-10T03:30:27Z mdhughes: BTW, I was looking at Gambit/Gerbil earlier, and it also does single-arg eval, and just casually uses it in the manual.
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2019-09-10T10:20:55Z amz3: according to IEEE Scheme comes before Lisp in terms of popularity https://spectrum.ieee.org/static/interactive-the-top-programming-languages-2019
2019-09-10T10:20:58Z amz3: ranked 39
2019-09-10T10:26:13Z weinholt: how did racket get 0.0?
2019-09-10T10:27:37Z weinholt: and how is scheme ahead of erlang? are the numbers towards the bottom just noise? :)
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2019-09-10T10:40:59Z z0d: Assembly also seems to be very high
2019-09-10T11:24:30Z amz3: good catch
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2019-09-10T16:50:14Z wasamasa: dto: I just learned you wrote cell-mode, is it anywhere out there?
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2019-09-10T21:55:07Z lavaflow: does anybody know of a triplestore implementation in scheme, particularly but not necessarily in racket?
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2019-09-11T01:29:15Z dto: <micronews> schememosaic now has an official webpage with beginnings of documentation. right now it's just docstrings plus a preamble, but it's a decent start. the bad news is that i broke some of the examples today oops. http://xelf.me/scheme-mosaic.html
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2019-09-11T04:26:01Z lockywolf: Friends, who here loves prettification?
2019-09-11T04:28:20Z lockywolf: I use some melpa package to prettify greek letters, and some common constructions, such as ∅
2019-09-11T04:28:45Z lockywolf: And find it really helping to focus
2019-09-11T04:30:55Z lockywolf: But it doesn't prettify (define) for example, and it also doesn't prettify #f. So I wonder if anyone has some nice prettification setup that he or she could share
2019-09-11T04:31:57Z lockywolf: 𝕖
2019-09-11T04:34:49Z Zipheir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye7PIyIcCro
2019-09-11T04:36:56Z Zipheir: You want pretty? :)  Sorry, I don't know any useful tools to recommend, but it's an interesting issue.
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2019-09-11T04:39:24Z [rg]: hello
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2019-09-11T04:41:04Z Zipheir: [rg]: o/
2019-09-11T04:42:59Z [rg]: did you guys read up on lambda calculus before you started your journey?
2019-09-11T04:43:21Z [rg]: to note, I have done an fp course before, but no lambda calculus
2019-09-11T04:43:54Z [rg]: also is this a general scheme? I choose racket since the documentation looked really nice
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2019-09-11T04:44:22Z Zipheir: Yes, this is general Scheme talk, but implementation-specific stuff comes up plenty.
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2019-09-11T04:45:57Z Zipheir: It would certainly help to have a background in lambda calculus before learning Scheme, but it's not necessary IMO.
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2019-09-11T04:46:38Z Zipheir: (My first exposure to λ-calculus was through Scheme, namely SICP and The Little Schemer.)
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2019-09-11T04:49:53Z [rg]: did you memorise the unicode symbol :P
2019-09-11T04:50:08Z [rg]: I have to many books to read to get to scip :/
2019-09-11T04:50:16Z [rg]: s/scip/sicp
2019-09-11T04:50:35Z [rg]: I did try the little schemer tho, was a bit odd
2019-09-11T04:51:05Z [rg]: care to discuss notation in lambda calculus papers?
2019-09-11T04:51:44Z Zipheir: Maybe, shoot.
2019-09-11T04:52:21Z [rg]: first hit was this pdf, http://www.cse.chalmers.se/research/group/logic/TypesSS05/Extra/geuvers.pdf
2019-09-11T04:53:07Z [rg]: what is this? If M \equiv M[x]
2019-09-11T04:53:12Z Zipheir: That's a good paper.
2019-09-11T04:53:18Z [rg]: what is M?
2019-09-11T04:53:27Z Zipheir: Page no.?
2019-09-11T04:53:38Z [rg]: page 7
2019-09-11T04:54:15Z [rg]: the first part talks about application, so FA is intuitively F applied to A and F is a function
2019-09-11T04:54:22Z [rg]: but the lettering
2019-09-11T04:54:31Z [rg]: are F and A variables?
2019-09-11T04:54:45Z [rg]: side note: I am also taking algebra this semester
2019-09-11T04:55:44Z [rg]: not sure what the square brackets mean on M
2019-09-11T04:55:53Z [rg]: is M a function?
2019-09-11T04:56:15Z Zipheir: M is just an expression in this case.
2019-09-11T04:56:37Z [rg]: how do you know?
2019-09-11T04:56:44Z Zipheir: The point of the notation M ≡ M[x] seems to be that x is a subexpression of M.
2019-09-11T04:56:53Z [rg]: interesting
2019-09-11T04:56:58Z [rg]: what notation is that from?
2019-09-11T04:57:04Z Zipheir: c.f. p. 6 where they discuss the [x] notation.
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2019-09-11T04:57:30Z [rg]: ohhhhhh
2019-09-11T04:57:41Z [rg]: well :)
2019-09-11T04:58:06Z [rg]: it looked like a grammar thing to me so I glossed over it
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2019-09-11T04:58:43Z [rg]: so does it start of with the basis of an expression?
2019-09-11T04:59:17Z Zipheir: What do you mean?
2019-09-11T04:59:18Z [rg]: or is it supposed to be intuitive from the arithmetic example?
2019-09-11T05:00:01Z [rg]: page 6 "A functional program consists of an expression E"
2019-09-11T05:00:16Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-09-11T05:00:20Z [rg]: there's really an art to reading math papers I swear :)
2019-09-11T05:00:40Z Zipheir: Think of it like a BNF grammar, if you're familiar with those.
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2019-09-11T05:00:56Z [rg]: yeah, ok
2019-09-11T05:00:57Z Zipheir: 'Expression' is just the top non-terminal of the λ-calculus grammar.
2019-09-11T05:02:15Z Zipheir: So an expression might just be 'x', or it could be some horrible deeply-nested chain of abstractions and applications.
2019-09-11T05:02:20Z [rg]: ah
2019-09-11T05:02:48Z [rg]: so what expression could both depend on x and be equivalent at the same time in arithmetic?
2019-09-11T05:03:18Z Zipheir: Speaking of BNF, the BNF on page 9 might help.
2019-09-11T05:05:19Z Zipheir: Since the M[x] example comes from the section on abstraction, the simplest example is just x ≡ x.
2019-09-11T05:06:18Z [rg]: ah thanks
2019-09-11T05:06:47Z [rg]: reading ahead is a nice technique, I always do stuff sequentially for better or worse...
2019-09-11T05:06:58Z Zipheir: "then λx.M[x] denotes the function that x -> M[x]", in this case λx.x is just the function that returns its argument, e.g. (λx.x)y -> y.
2019-09-11T05:07:50Z Zipheir: Well, Barenregt's paper is pretty pithy, so it's probably best to read it sequentially.
2019-09-11T05:08:02Z Zipheir: *Barendregt
2019-09-11T05:08:23Z [rg]: -> is the notation for a function?
2019-09-11T05:09:20Z Zipheir: It's that mapping arrow which I don't have bound to a keysym at the moment...
2019-09-11T05:09:49Z Zipheir: ↦  There we go.
2019-09-11T05:10:15Z [rg]: so a particular element maps to ... ?
2019-09-11T05:10:27Z [rg]: if that makes sense
2019-09-11T05:11:08Z Zipheir: So x ↦ 2x is another way of writing f(x) = 2x or (lambda (x) (* 2 x)) or whatever.
2019-09-11T05:11:39Z [rg]: ah I see
2019-09-11T05:12:25Z Zipheir: Obviously the f(x) notation is super common, but you'll see the ↦ anonymous notation a lot as well.
2019-09-11T05:15:42Z [rg]: so I wonder is the lambda x part just chosen? I'm trying to deconstruct the whole thing λx.M[x]
2019-09-11T05:16:12Z Zipheir: `just chosen'?  You mean, is the x symbol arbitrary?
2019-09-11T05:16:18Z [rg]: that's just the new notation since they say it denotes x -> M[x]
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2019-09-11T05:17:34Z [rg]: := is assignment I presume
2019-09-11T05:17:54Z [rg]: ah nvm its sub
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2019-09-11T05:18:14Z Zipheir: M[y] is equivalent to M[x] up to consistent renaming, so you can replace x with whatever provided 'whatever' isn't free in M.
2019-09-11T05:19:50Z [rg]: so this can be written as x -> x?
2019-09-11T05:20:05Z [rg]: sorry, " (λx.x)y -> y" as  x -> x?
2019-09-11T05:20:30Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's valid notation.
2019-09-11T05:20:46Z [rg]: cool :)
2019-09-11T05:21:29Z [rg]: ok, I think it's starting to gel
2019-09-11T05:22:28Z Zipheir: A lot of the difficulty is notational, which is one reason why the Scheme version of some lambda stuff (in, say, The Little Schemer) can be easier to grasp.
2019-09-11T05:22:53Z Zipheir: Scheme is more consistent that mathematical notation, since the dumbest computers need to be able to understand it.
2019-09-11T05:23:24Z [rg]: yes
2019-09-11T05:23:38Z [rg]: one of my profs prefers apl notation for that reason too
2019-09-11T05:25:16Z [rg]: ok, so (λx:M)N=M[x:=N] in this sense, M has to be an expression that contains x in some form?
2019-09-11T05:26:07Z Zipheir: (λx.M)N = M[x:=N], right?
2019-09-11T05:26:34Z Zipheir: M need not contain x, but it is allowed to.
2019-09-11T05:26:35Z [rg]: yeah
2019-09-11T05:26:39Z [rg]: hmm
2019-09-11T05:27:07Z Zipheir: Hence (λx.4)N = 4 is totally valid (assuming we can use 4 as a value here!)
2019-09-11T05:28:24Z [rg]: ok, how to I read M[x]? M applied to [x]? or it's simple the notation for the expression according to the grammar
2019-09-11T05:28:40Z Zipheir: It's simply a notation to show that M may contain x.
2019-09-11T05:28:48Z Zipheir: It's not an operation.
2019-09-11T05:29:24Z Zipheir: "an expression containing ('depending on') x" (p. 7)
2019-09-11T05:30:06Z [rg]: waitaminute
2019-09-11T05:30:13Z [rg]: does [] mean optional?
2019-09-11T05:31:05Z Zipheir: No.
2019-09-11T05:31:16Z Zipheir: At least not in any λ notation I've seen.
2019-09-11T05:32:27Z Zipheir: So E[x:=y] definitely does _not_ mean optional substitution of y for x in E.
2019-09-11T05:32:46Z Zipheir: Where would we be then??
2019-09-11T05:32:58Z [rg]: lol, not sure :P
2019-09-11T05:33:28Z [rg]: can I do this? (λy.4)N = 4
2019-09-11T05:33:33Z [rg]: wait, there's more
2019-09-11T05:34:09Z [rg]: and following that, does it mean I can do this? (λy.4*x+1)3
2019-09-11T05:34:41Z Zipheir: x occurs free in that expression, is that what you want?
2019-09-11T05:35:23Z [rg]: I am trying to figure out the relationship between the variable that is right of the lambda and the other expressions
2019-09-11T05:35:44Z Zipheir: OK, basics: do you know the difference between free and bound variables?
2019-09-11T05:35:46Z [rg]: or from previous expressions, what is x?
2019-09-11T05:35:54Z [rg]: Zipheir, no
2019-09-11T05:36:31Z Zipheir: Lambda _binds_ variables in an expression: in λx.E, x is bound in E.
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2019-09-11T05:37:10Z Zipheir: So when you apply (λx.E)y, all the occurrences of x in E are replaced with y.
2019-09-11T05:37:26Z [rg]: ohh
2019-09-11T05:38:03Z Zipheir: But in λx.y, y is a free variable--it's not bound by a lambda, so it can't be substituted for when (λx.y) is applied to something.
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2019-09-11T05:40:47Z Zipheir: This is very, very important for hygiene and why you can't blindly substitute names around.  You always have to take free variables into account.
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2019-09-11T05:43:30Z [rg]: oh I think I read the sentence incorrectly
2019-09-11T05:43:52Z Zipheir: A nice application of this in Scheme is what people weirdly call closures--generally, a procedure that is passed some values which its binds in the scope of another procedure, which it returns.
2019-09-11T05:43:57Z [rg]: so is it M \equiv M[x] means it can be M or M[x] ?
2019-09-11T05:44:05Z [rg]: so it doesn't have to include x
2019-09-11T05:44:27Z [rg]: beta on page 7
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2019-09-11T05:45:02Z [rg]: Zipheir, yes, I still don't get closures
2019-09-11T05:45:20Z [rg]: I barely get it in context of sets
2019-09-11T05:46:16Z Zipheir: It's a different concept and a misnomer in functional programming, and there's no relation.
2019-09-11T05:46:57Z [rg]: lol
2019-09-11T05:47:02Z [rg]: after all this time
2019-09-11T05:47:49Z [rg]: same with closures in the imperative style?
2019-09-11T05:47:56Z Zipheir: The simplest example is (define x-adder (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))).  (x-adder 7) returns a procedure that returns 7 + whatever it's applied to.
2019-09-11T05:48:52Z Zipheir: Hmm, not sure what "closures in the imperative style" are.
2019-09-11T05:49:18Z [rg]: well I remeber the jls saying something about closures, but lets not worry about that
2019-09-11T05:50:49Z Zipheir: The same idea is often used to maintain a local, mutable state, e.g. to create counters that increment some local variable.
2019-09-11T05:53:09Z Zipheir: Section 3.3 of SICP has some cool examples of that, but anyway.  This is probably just confusing.
2019-09-11T05:55:23Z [rg]: thanks so much Zipheir
2019-09-11T05:55:35Z [rg]: gonna sleep on this now
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2019-09-11T12:31:57Z jcowan: Procedure objects are called closures because they cause all free variables mentioned into them to be bound to the values they have when the procedure is created (as opposed to called).  What were once open variables (free) have become closed (bound).
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2019-09-11T12:38:48Z amz3: scheme workshop videos are incoming...
2019-09-11T12:44:55Z lockywolf: [rg], closures are sort of what in imperative programming you may call 'a function instance'
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2019-09-11T12:51:51Z jcowan: Which of course only exist in imperative languages because Lisp.
2019-09-11T12:52:10Z jcowan: or more precisely Scheme.
2019-09-11T12:54:17Z jcowan: You heard it here first, folks (in 1975)
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2019-09-11T14:10:16Z rain2: exciting for scheme workshop
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2019-09-11T14:34:21Z lockywolf_: When did nil disappear from scheme?
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2019-09-11T15:54:54Z Zipheir: 'The use of the word ``closure'' here comes from abstract algebra ... The Lisp community also (unfortunately) uses the word ``closure'' to describe a totally unrelated concept: A closure is an implementation technique for representing procedures with free variables. We do not use the word ``closure'' in this second sense in this book.'
2019-09-11T15:55:18Z Zipheir: ^^ SICP, Sec. 2.2, footnote 6
2019-09-11T15:56:23Z Zipheir: lockywolf_: And 'function instance' is without doubt the most horrible name for such objects ever!
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2019-09-11T16:51:59Z lockywolf_: Zipheir, it's just a name. I feel it rather intuitive, but tastes differ.
2019-09-11T16:53:03Z Zipheir: Intuitive or no, it reeks of OOP.
2019-09-11T16:53:14Z lockywolf_: What's wrong with OOP?
2019-09-11T16:54:22Z Zipheir: For an opinion that matters, I'll just quote EWD: "Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea that could only have originated in California."
2019-09-11T16:54:36Z lockywolf_: EWD?
2019-09-11T16:54:58Z Zipheir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsger_W._Dijkstra
2019-09-11T16:55:26Z lockywolf_: tx
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2019-09-11T16:56:23Z Zipheir: I do think OOP can be intuitive for some applications, especially modeling.  But the OOP philosophy/perspective/jargon-system is the Ptolemaic astronomy of this century...
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2019-09-11T16:59:01Z lockywolf_: I assume then you didn't actually read SICP past Chapter 2
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2019-09-11T16:59:22Z Zipheir: Why?
2019-09-11T16:59:55Z lockywolf_: Well, because Abelson and Sussman actually tell the readers how to implement OOP in scheme right there.
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2019-09-11T17:01:42Z ecraven: the older I get, the more useless the term "OOP" seems.. everybody means something different by it
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2019-09-11T17:05:54Z Zipheir: lockywolf_: I'm aware of that.  OOP in Scheme isn't much better than OOP anywhere else.
2019-09-11T17:07:12Z lockywolf_: Ok. To each according to his faith
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2019-09-11T17:08:03Z lockywolf_: To me, OOP is the only way to protect data from my collegues.
2019-09-11T17:08:37Z lockywolf_: And the only way to make them read at least a bit of documentation
2019-09-11T17:09:41Z Zipheir: The SICP lectures actually have an interesting perspective, namely that a functional perspective corresponds to a mathematicl, sub specie aeternitatis view of the universe, whereas from an OO perspective it's a mutable universe of things with state.
2019-09-11T17:09:49Z belmarca: ecraven: out of patience
2019-09-11T17:09:52Z Zipheir: s/mathematicl/mathematical/
2019-09-11T17:10:07Z lockywolf_: Zipheir, I don't have any mutable objects in my code
2019-09-11T17:10:17Z belmarca: it's like an OOM but for parents
2019-09-11T17:10:55Z Zipheir: If you look at the early history of the serious OO (or message-oriented, according to Alan Kay) applications, they were all simulations--things that the programmers didn't have some nice model of which they _had_ to represent by interacting stateful thingies.
2019-09-11T17:11:19Z ecraven: are generic functions already oop?
2019-09-11T17:12:05Z Zipheir: Polymorphism is not an OO idea!
2019-09-11T17:12:12Z lockywolf_: k
2019-09-11T17:13:16Z lockywolf_: for reference, in my uni, the formula was (≝ OOP '(polymorphism encapsulation inheritance))
2019-09-11T17:13:21Z Zipheir: There's no need for any of the usual notions of OOP to define a function of type list α -> α.
2019-09-11T17:13:54Z lockywolf_: but I am by no means insisting on its correctness
2019-09-11T17:14:17Z Zipheir: Yeah, that or something like it is a pretty common definition.
2019-09-11T17:14:30Z Zipheir: Note how vaguely-related those ideas are...
2019-09-11T17:14:46Z lockywolf_: I think, it's Barbara Liskov's.
2019-09-11T17:15:14Z lockywolf_: These ideas are (obviously) not expected to be related at all.
2019-09-11T17:15:40Z lockywolf_: They are rather expected to be orthogonal as in "completely unrelated".
2019-09-11T17:16:05Z lockywolf_: Otherwise the definition would have contained redundancy.
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2019-09-11T17:17:07Z Zipheir: But if they're three orthogonal ideas, then you obviously don't need the silly object-jargon-framework to deal with them.
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2019-09-11T17:17:20Z Zipheir: Encapsulation is abstraction.
2019-09-11T17:17:32Z Zipheir: Polymorphism is most easily understood in terms of types.
2019-09-11T17:17:39Z lockywolf_: encapsulation has nothing to do with abstraction
2019-09-11T17:17:44Z Zipheir: Inheritance, you've got some choices.
2019-09-11T17:17:48Z lockywolf_: polymorphism is abstraction
2019-09-11T17:19:49Z Zipheir: Wait, what?
2019-09-11T17:20:06Z lockywolf_: (correction) all three are actually about abstraction
2019-09-11T17:20:27Z lockywolf_: abstraction is a too abstract term
2019-09-11T17:21:27Z lockywolf_: encapsulation essentially means "I see what's inside, but I can't change it"
2019-09-11T17:21:45Z lockywolf_: polymorphism is "I can't see what's inside"
2019-09-11T17:22:15Z Zipheir: That's a very weird definition of polymorphism.
2019-09-11T17:22:37Z lockywolf_: A pretty standard one.
2019-09-11T17:23:26Z Zipheir: So from that, how do you define parametric polymorphism?
2019-09-11T17:23:59Z lockywolf_: As long as A ∈ B, I can work with any object as if it comes from B, without caring if it is actually A or C or whatever
2019-09-11T17:24:16Z Zipheir: Since I don't see how "I can't see what's inside" helps explain how I can write a function that takes any list of α to an α.
2019-09-11T17:24:42Z lockywolf_: what is parametric polymorphism?
2019-09-11T17:24:45Z lockywolf_: templates?
2019-09-11T17:24:53Z lockywolf_: C++ templates?
2019-09-11T17:25:05Z Zipheir: lockywolf_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parametric_polymorphism
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2019-09-11T17:25:59Z Zipheir: See, your definitions are all object-oriented, so we're just arguing terms.
2019-09-11T17:27:34Z lockywolf_: well, I don't see any problems with objects
2019-09-11T17:27:55Z lockywolf_: and I don't see any contradiction between FP and OOP
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2019-09-11T17:29:53Z Zipheir: There are contradictions in that OOP misuses terms and constantly confutes ideas about types with ideas about objects and their inheiritance relationships.
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2019-09-11T17:30:29Z lockywolf_: as long as mathematics keeps being set-theoretic-based, I don't see OOP going anywhere
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2019-09-11T17:33:24Z Zipheir: I can't see that those are related.  OO is rarely defined in terms of set theory, except in some hand-wavy metaphorical way.
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2019-09-11T17:34:59Z Zipheir: One of the biggest damn problems with OOP reasoning is the lack of any rigorous basis and the use of squidgy, multiply-defined terms like 'encapsulation'.
2019-09-11T17:35:36Z Zipheir: WP: "In object oriented programming languages, encapsulation is used to refer to one of two related but distinct notions, and sometimes to the combination thereof..."
2019-09-11T17:39:19Z Zipheir: OK, sorry.  I'm done ranting.
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2019-09-11T17:43:57Z pjb: Zipheir: there are formal definitions of OO, and big books full of them.  The problem is that each programming language has its own semantics.
2019-09-11T17:44:26Z pjb: So when you want to speak generally, you speak informally and fuzzily.
2019-09-11T17:48:46Z wasamasa: just wait until you discover how JS people muddle down FP terms
2019-09-11T17:49:34Z Zipheir: Well, I've looked through _Design Patterns_, the supposed bible of the cult^H^H^H paradigm and it's all informal and fuzzy.  And badly, badly written.
2019-09-11T17:52:49Z Zipheir: (Look up the Gang Of Four's 'design pattern relationships' chart with any image search and try to make sense of that madness.)
2019-09-11T17:57:01Z pjb: Design patterns are just macros of languages that don't have macros…
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2019-09-11T18:07:31Z Zipheir: I think Paul Graham said that.
2019-09-11T18:09:56Z pjb: Perhaps. I wrote that: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/ee09f8475bc7b2a0 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.programming/msg/9e7b8aaec1794126
2019-09-11T18:13:13Z Zipheir: Also, a classic satirical example wiki.c2.com/?KansasCityAirConditioner
2019-09-11T18:14:45Z pjb: It doesn't feel generic enough. Probably lacking some factory…
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2019-09-11T20:43:27Z jcowan: IMO generic functions is the important part of OO
2019-09-11T20:47:04Z Riastradh: IMO meaningless O'Reilly-scented hype is the important part of OO
2019-09-11T20:48:24Z Riastradh: Also pithy verbal jabs between `luminaries' like Alan Kay and Bjarne Stroustrup about what it really is.
2019-09-11T20:52:15Z jcowan: "Functional programming" is an equally hyped term.
2019-09-11T20:53:38Z Riastradh: `Functional programming' at least carries some meaning that essentially nobody disagrees about: breaking down computations into compositions of functions, passing information by argumenets rather than by state, using persistent data structures.
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2019-09-11T20:58:30Z Riastradh: Are Haskell type classes `generic functions'?  Are C structs of function pointers `generic functions'?  Are interrupt vectors invoked by the x86 CPU ISA `generic functions'?  Does that make all these things `object-oriented'?
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2019-09-11T21:25:11Z Zipheir: I usually take 'generics' to refer to ad-hoc polymorphism.
2019-09-11T21:25:25Z [rg]: hello Zipheir
2019-09-11T21:25:31Z Zipheir: Hey [rg].
2019-09-11T21:26:35Z Zipheir: But the language of OO is mysterious, and I'll just have to find a practitioner of Operating Thetan III or higher to explain it all to me.
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2019-09-11T21:33:37Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2019-09-11T21:33:42Z Riastradh changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to  '("https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme" "https://schemers.org" "https://srfi.schemers.org"  "http://community.schemewiki.org" "https://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp" "https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures" "https://htdp.org" "https://scheme.com/tspl4" "https://paste.debian.net"))
2019-09-11T21:34:05Z Riastradh: (http -> https, library.readscheme.org -> srfi.schemers.org, remove trailing slashes to save space)
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2019-09-11T21:59:38Z jcowan: Riastradh: Respectively "in a sense", "yes", "I don't know"
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2019-09-11T22:45:25Z gwatt: Zipheir: what is "ad-hoc polymorphism"? Is there a corresponding "formal polymorphism" ?
2019-09-11T22:46:11Z gwatt: Riastradh: I think a few people here made mirrors of readscheme.org, if you want to still have that listed in the topic.
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2019-09-11T23:33:45Z enderby: what's the difference between let and define? is like the difference between let and const in javascript?
2019-09-11T23:33:52Z enderby: *is it like
2019-09-11T23:34:09Z Zipheir: gwatt: It's not something I just made up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc_polymorphism
2019-09-11T23:35:48Z Zipheir: enderby: let is precisely equivalent to lambda application: (let ((x 2)) e ...) ≡ ((lambda (x) e ...) 2)
2019-09-11T23:41:53Z enderby: what's the use case for nested define's - is there one?
2019-09-11T23:43:30Z pjb: I never use it.  But it may look syntactically pleasing to define local functions.
2019-09-11T23:44:15Z enderby: ok gotcha
2019-09-11T23:44:23Z Zipheir: enderby: This has some discussion on the topic https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21866275/why-is-let-preferred-to-define-in-scheme
2019-09-11T23:45:03Z Zipheir: enderby: Some people only use letrec and friends, but internal defines are sometimes nice if you want to avoid cluttered lambdas.
2019-09-11T23:45:43Z Zipheir: enderby: e.g. (define (foo x) (define (bar y) ...) ...) may look nicer than (define (foo x) (letrec ((bar (lambda (y) ...))) ...)).
2019-09-11T23:46:01Z Zipheir: enderby: Unless you're a Dybvig disciple and believe that defun notation is the work of Satan.
2019-09-11T23:49:49Z enderby: ok, thanks. funny, because i'm reading tspl rn :) but am reviewing old code i've written... heh
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2019-09-12T00:02:55Z aeth: enderby: define is for global top level things and let is local... except as syntactic sugar, define can be turned into a let if it's at the top of a procedure body (and maybe in a few other places) to reduce indentation/nesting a bit.
2019-09-12T00:03:08Z aeth: iirc
2019-09-12T00:03:40Z aeth: Personally, I prefer let because it makes the scope explicit and it makes it clear when you could/should split something off into a smaller function
2019-09-12T00:04:54Z enderby: aeth: yes, i'm noticing that as kind of a code smell now
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2019-09-12T00:05:52Z aeth: Other Lisps actually differ from Scheme here in that the define-equivalent(s) remain global even when used in a function body... which is probably less useful than Scheme's syntactic sugar approach to internal defines, but I guess on the other hand, it lets you do things that aren't possible (at least easily/portably) in Scheme
2019-09-12T00:06:19Z aeth: The syntactic sugar approach is more approachable if you're coming from a language like Python
2019-09-12T00:07:02Z Riastradh: gwatt: Feel free to suggest one.  I figured the topic would overflow if I added another link.
2019-09-12T00:07:11Z aeth: (more approachable, and less surprising)
2019-09-12T00:07:55Z Riastradh: enderby: let creates local scopes.  Internal define makes it easier to read a collection of internal subroutines.
2019-09-12T00:09:25Z Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh
2019-09-12T00:09:52Z aeth: Oh, I was being sloppy with my terminology. I was using "let" for that collection of macros. I guess it's letrec, which is what Zipheir said. Hmm... Actually... I looked it up and it's letrec*
2019-09-12T00:12:01Z aeth: And in the standard it can happen in the body of lambda let let* letrec letrec* let-values let*-values let-syntax letrec-syntax parameterize guard or case-lambda
2019-09-12T00:12:51Z Zipheir: Let there be lets!
2019-09-12T00:13:03Z aeth: I'm guessing it also shows up in function defines because (define (foo ) ...) is just (define foo (lambda () ...))
2019-09-12T00:14:23Z Riastradh: (As a bonus, in MIT Scheme, internal define works better than letrec.  (Conversely, MIT Scheme's letrec performance is buggy.))
2019-09-12T00:17:37Z aeth: enderby: the other reason to use the let family over internal defines is the flexiblity. e.g. usually you use let/let-foo not let*/let-foo*
2019-09-12T00:19:22Z enderby: icic
2019-09-12T00:20:07Z enderby: thanks all
2019-09-12T00:21:52Z aeth: the * macros usually are for a particular kind of pseudo-procedural code.
2019-09-12T00:22:52Z aeth: e.g. (let* ((a 42) (b 43) (c (+ a b)) (d (* b 2))) (values a b c d))
2019-09-12T00:26:38Z Zipheir: A monad in let's clothing.
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2019-09-12T00:35:31Z Riastradh: Well, * usually just means `a variation'.
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2019-09-12T00:48:02Z aeth: Riastradh: * means a variation, but * in the context of binding means, well, do things sequentially instead of using the parent environment I guess?
2019-09-12T00:48:14Z aeth: but you're right
2019-09-12T00:51:50Z belmarca: you shouldn't assume that is the case
2019-09-12T00:52:11Z belmarca: but in the case of let*, it means "each subsequent binding can refer to the previous"
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2019-09-12T01:12:34Z belmarca: can I assume that this will always hold? (let ((x 0)) (set! x 1) (eq? x 1))
2019-09-12T01:13:00Z belmarca: or could mutation happen after?
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2019-09-12T01:32:24Z Riastradh: belmarca: If you substitute eqv? or = for eq?, yes.
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2019-09-12T01:34:05Z belmarca: but in general can I assume that mutation will happen prior to the next operation?
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2019-09-12T01:35:55Z Zipheir: Does anyone know the name of the author of "JRM's syntax-rules Primer For The Merely Eccentric"?
2019-09-12T01:36:49Z pjb: JRM
2019-09-12T01:37:44Z pjb: From the URL, M = Micheles
2019-09-12T01:38:21Z pjb: Perhaps not; the url is on  Michele Simionato's page.
2019-09-12T01:38:33Z pjb: You might ask him.
2019-09-12T01:38:42Z Zipheir: It's something of a mystery.  Everyone just cites "JRM" when they mention that paper.
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2019-09-12T01:39:45Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Joe Marshall
2019-09-12T01:39:56Z Riastradh: belmarca: yes
2019-09-12T01:40:13Z Zipheir: Riastradh: ty!
2019-09-12T01:40:32Z belmarca: Riastradh: thanks. That's defined in the standard?
2019-09-12T01:40:50Z Riastradh: belmarca: yes
2019-09-12T01:41:55Z Riastradh: belmarca: What made you worried that set! wouldn't take effect immediately in a sequential program?
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2019-09-12T01:45:08Z belmarca: I'm thinking about how to structure code and maybe using something like (let ((x something)) (letrec
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2019-09-12T01:45:33Z belmarca: where the letrec is an FSM and can mutate x.
2019-09-12T01:45:46Z pjb: Riastradh: in C, it doesn't; you need a sequence point.
2019-09-12T01:45:54Z Zipheir: FSM = Flying Spaghetti Monster?
2019-09-12T01:46:01Z belmarca: finite state machine 😆
2019-09-12T01:46:10Z Zipheir: Heh, of course.
2019-09-12T01:46:51Z belmarca: (letrec ((init-state (lambda () (final-state))) (final-state (lambda () (display "final")))))
2019-09-12T01:46:55Z belmarca: or whatever
2019-09-12T01:47:07Z belmarca: missing a (init-state)
2019-09-12T01:47:31Z Riastradh: pjb: That `sequence point' lies between two commands in the sequence that is the body of the let.
2019-09-12T01:47:34Z Riastradh: pjb: So no, it's the same in C.
2019-09-12T01:47:36Z belmarca: I was worried that maybe I could not assume mutation occurs in the right order.
2019-09-12T01:48:17Z Riastradh: In int foo(void) { int x = 0; x = 1; return x == 1; }, the function foo() is also guaranteed to return true.
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2019-09-12T03:24:57Z lockywolf: I was asking about the prettification suggestions yesterday.
2019-09-12T03:25:01Z lockywolf: Found this http://www.modernemacs.com/post/prettify-mode/
2019-09-12T03:30:28Z lavaflow: I've been having a problem where geiser-restart-repl restarts the wrong repl.  does anybody know what I can do about this?
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2019-09-12T03:39:53Z [rg]: ,bt ;)
2019-09-12T03:40:13Z [rg]: just kidding, I don't quite understand emacs yet
2019-09-12T03:41:13Z lavaflow: My racket repl is going screwy, probably due stuff I'm doing with places or not closing tcp connections correctly or something, I'm not sure.
2019-09-12T03:41:27Z lavaflow: but in some modes of failure I'm left unable to interact with it
2019-09-12T03:44:47Z [rg]: what is your workflow like?
2019-09-12T03:45:03Z [rg]: I have been looking at racket
2019-09-12T03:45:18Z [rg]: once I finish the lambda calc paper I will start programming hopefully
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2019-09-12T05:46:41Z ecraven: ah, come on.. why woulfd sisc and gambit-c possibly conflict on arch linux?
2019-09-12T05:46:52Z ecraven: another hint that I should really be using containers...
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2019-09-12T09:08:08Z amz3: my presentation at scheme workshop about srfi 167 and srfi 168 https://youtu.be/uv_b_nEzQp4
2019-09-12T09:15:13Z z0d: thx!
2019-09-12T09:22:38Z amz3: hint for future talks: repeat questions.
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2019-09-12T18:49:05Z Boarders: could someone tell me how I do church encoded exponentiation in scheme
2019-09-12T18:49:15Z Boarders: the lack of easy curring makes it impossible for me to figure out
2019-09-12T18:49:29Z Boarders: somehow I know you are meant to use that: n f x = f^n x
2019-09-12T18:50:01Z Boarders: and hence if we want m^n then we can do m^n f = n m f
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2019-09-12T18:55:35Z Boarders: I already have this: https://gist.github.com/Boarders/99db42ead88d7252ff8555dd1fd35323
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2019-09-12T23:08:10Z dieggsy: Boarders: your notation is a bit confusing, and seems to imply that multiplication and exponentiation of a and b are the same
2019-09-12T23:13:23Z dieggsy: er. or n and m in this case
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2019-09-13T02:57:02Z [rg]: hello
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2019-09-13T03:14:53Z Zipheir: o/ [rg]
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2019-09-13T07:07:42Z Zipheir: amz3: Thanks for posting the presentation video link!
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2019-09-14T14:06:49Z nisstyre: wouldn't you implement church addition first, then church multiplication, then church exponentiation
2019-09-14T14:06:52Z nisstyre: that's what I would do
2019-09-14T14:07:00Z nisstyre: then all of the inverses
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2019-09-14T17:47:42Z jcowan: soon to be followed by church latin
2019-09-14T17:51:52Z edgar-rft: ...and the election of a lambda pope
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2019-09-14T18:01:08Z jcowan: Julian III (1550-55) was the last lambda pope as far as anyone knows
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2019-09-14T18:16:37Z aeth: ((labda (x) (adde x III)) IV) => VII ; the case sensitivity of Scheme helps here because with Common Lisp, x would be X which would be the number.
2019-09-14T18:18:06Z aeth: A true classical Lisp using true classical Latin would just have to use a descriptive word instead of x. e.g. ((LABDA (NUMERVS) (ADDE NUMERVS III)) IV) => VII
2019-09-14T18:18:40Z aeth: Except if you really have fun, you'd decline the variable NUMERVS when using it in the function body instead of keeping it in the nominative
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2019-09-14T18:21:43Z la_zaifir: Didn't someone create a programming language with a case system?
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2019-09-14T18:25:42Z aeth: probably, but if you wanted real Latin you'd have to distinguish your variable somehow so that the machine would know if it is second declension or fourth declension, both being -us (or -VS for purists) words, unless you plugged it into a program that had a big Latin dictionary, like Whitaker's Words (and yes, there is/was a downloadable Linux version I still have). http://www.archives.nd.edu/words.html
2019-09-14T18:26:08Z aeth: Oh, here's the downloadable version. http://archives.nd.edu/whitaker/words.htm
2019-09-14T18:27:14Z aeth: e.g. numerus, numeri  N  M     2 1  M   [XXXAO]
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2019-09-14T19:27:08Z jcowan: la_zaifir, aeth: http://users.monash.edu/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html (paper), https://metacpan.org/pod/Lingua::Romana::Perligata (MetaCPAN)
2019-09-14T19:27:38Z jcowan: DOOM! DOOM!  5-level paging coming to Intel chips, and all is lost for dynamically typed languages!
2019-09-14T19:28:41Z aeth: of course it would be Perl
2019-09-14T19:29:15Z Riastradh: ...why is 5-level paging related to dynamically typed languages?
2019-09-14T19:29:50Z la_zaifir: jcowan: Ah, ty, perligata, that's what I was thinking of.
2019-09-14T19:30:34Z jcowan: 57-bit virtual addresses will not fit into the signaling NaN space, so punboxing will stop working on large systems.
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2019-09-14T19:58:59Z DKordic: Use bigger floats then?
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2019-09-14T19:59:58Z Riastradh: No hardware I've ever heard of supports binary128.
2019-09-14T20:00:29Z jcowan: We don't even have hardware support for decimal floats, which would be a Very Good Thing to have.
2019-09-14T20:01:10Z Riastradh: jcowan: It's not that it will stop working; you just won't be able to use more than (say) a petabyte of virtual address space for tagged objects.
2019-09-14T20:03:24Z jcowan: Provided your OS doesn't randomly scatter memory throughout the space.  Solaris, e.g., will sometimes allocate user virtual memory above 8000000000000000, which is an annoyance.
2019-09-14T20:03:35Z jcowan: whereas Linux, Windows, and AFAIK BSD will not.
2019-09-14T20:04:04Z jcowan: ("user" = non-kernel)
2019-09-14T20:04:53Z Riastradh: ...does anyone care about Solaris any more...?
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2019-09-14T20:14:39Z la_zaifir: IIRC people stopped visiting after the ocean turned out to be sentient.
2019-09-14T20:18:19Z jcowan: Lots of people think no one cares about BSD any more.
2019-09-14T20:20:56Z la_zaifir: Heh, it's explicitly the policy of our new Linux overlords, c.f. Lennart Poettering's "BSD is irrelevant" statement.
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2019-09-14T20:41:37Z jcowan: To be fair, that seems to have referred to the supposed exodus of Linux users to BSD over the systemd debacle.
2019-09-14T20:47:25Z Riastradh: Anyway, if you're doing `punboxing', per se, and not NaN-boxing, then a constant offset like that doesn't hurt that much.
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2019-09-14T21:40:26Z jcowan: I meant nanboxing (favoring pointers over doubles makes more sense in Lisps), but nanboxing or punboxing, you need to be able to fit a pointer into 52 bits, and 57-bit pointers won't.
2019-09-14T21:40:37Z jcowan: Riastradh: ^^
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2019-09-14T22:24:16Z aeth: la_zaifir: Okay, I'll take the bait. BSD does seem pretty irrelevant in 2019. The only place I've seen it show up recently is FreeNAS (built on FreeBSD).
2019-09-14T22:25:45Z aeth: Meanwhile, in the past ten years, you have Android, Steam for Linux, WSL (sort of a reverse wine), Raspberry Pi defaulting to a Debian, cloud VM servers usually using a modified CentOS or Ubuntu, etc.
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2019-09-14T22:29:23Z aeth: oh, and Top500 has been 100% Linux for 2 years now.
2019-09-14T22:29:32Z aeth: https://www.top500.org/statistics/overtime/
2019-09-14T22:29:47Z aeth: (go to operating system family, I can't link to that directly because of JavaScript)
2019-09-14T22:31:01Z aeth: Now, this is probably not a good thing. I wouldn't be surprised if even Microsoft Windows eventually switches over to being a proprietary set of services on top of the Linux kernel in 10 years' time because the NT kernel itself isn't core to MSFT's business. We're rapidly approaching an OS monoculture.
2019-09-14T22:32:00Z aeth: (Of course, maybe Google switches Android to Fuchsia eventually, but probably not.)
2019-09-14T22:33:31Z aeth: On the other hand, macOS is basically a BSD and probably will remain like that for a while.
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2019-09-14T23:33:57Z la_zaifir: aeth: "Now, this is probably not a good thing."  Right, when 90s FOSS hackers dreamed of Linux world domination, this probably wasn't what they had in mind...
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2019-09-14T23:37:15Z aeth: Especially since a lot of that "world domination" is Android or big clouds (and in the cloud you're often not even running it directly and instead just running some abstracted service).
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2019-09-14T23:46:16Z la_zaifir: Running Android, there's at least a (slightly brain-damaged) POSIX system in there that you can program.  But SAS is pure evil.
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2019-09-14T23:58:55Z r2q2: hi
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2019-09-15T00:08:06Z la_zaifir: r2q2: o/
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2019-09-15T01:33:49Z r2q2: whats up la_zaifir
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2019-09-15T02:01:51Z edgar-rft: at least everything that's not down
2019-09-15T02:02:34Z edgar-rft: ...or somewhere in the middle
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2019-09-15T02:54:25Z Riastradh: jcowan: If you're punboxing, then any constant offset like you mentioned Solaris might use is not a problem.
2019-09-15T02:54:36Z Riastradh: aeth: jcowan probably mentioned that because I'm typing on NetBSD right now.
2019-09-15T02:55:26Z r2q2: slolarus
2019-09-15T02:55:29Z r2q2: slowlarus
2019-09-15T02:55:46Z r2q2: how do you like netbsd?
2019-09-15T02:57:28Z jcowan: Riastradh: I don't understand what you are saying.  The other OSes use only the bottom 2^47 bytes of virtual memory for the user, whereas Solaris also allocates user memory in the top 2^47 bytes.  This is tolerable, since we have 52 bits for addresses.  But with 57-bit addresses and no assurancs how they are going to be allocated....
2019-09-15T02:57:34Z jcowan: Well, bad things.
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2019-09-15T03:04:21Z ahungry: in scheme, is there any facility similar to some other lisp-like languages (clojure/elisp/common-lisp) to store docstring information with variables or functions?  (something like '(doc symbol)' that would print out the relevant details)
2019-09-15T03:04:43Z ahungry: in particular, guile scheme, but as a general question, if any schemes support it?
2019-09-15T03:10:30Z [rg]: guile scheme eh
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2019-09-15T03:29:34Z la_zaifir: r2q2: In appropriate company, you could ask "what's codown?"
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2019-09-15T03:31:36Z la_zaifir: ahungry: There's nothing standard.  Consult your neighborhood Scheme implementation.
2019-09-15T03:34:05Z ahungry: thanks
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2019-09-15T03:37:04Z la_zaifir: ahungry: The Guile manual has some content about querying docstrings at the C level, but doesn't seem to explain how to create them in Scheme.  I'm not a Guile user, though, so that's just from a quick search.
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2019-09-15T04:06:41Z r2q2: la_zaifir haha
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2019-09-15T06:07:20Z [rg]: I am reading an Introduction to lambda calculus on page 8, how I read the expression (*)? (Fx)y = F_x y = f(x, y).
2019-09-15T06:07:52Z [rg]: http://www.cse.chalmers.se/research/group/logic/TypesSS05/Extra/geuvers.pdf
2019-09-15T06:09:28Z [rg]: do I apply the basic operation application here?
2019-09-15T06:17:47Z ggole: The leftmost expression is two applications, yes
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2019-09-15T06:20:38Z [rg]: oh hey ggole
2019-09-15T06:20:40Z [rg]: thanks
2019-09-15T06:21:16Z [rg]: so it starts by saying f(x, y) is an expression
2019-09-15T06:21:59Z ggole: This is the application of f to the pair (x, y)
2019-09-15T06:22:13Z ggole: (Note: not to two arguments.)
2019-09-15T06:22:26Z [rg]: ohhh waitaminute
2019-09-15T06:22:34Z ggole: The text is pointing out that you can convert fairly easily between the two styles of function.
2019-09-15T06:22:34Z [rg]: so it's f . (x,y) ?
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2019-09-15T06:23:49Z ggole: I'm not quite sure what you mean by . there
2019-09-15T06:24:27Z [rg]: from what I understand of page 6 expressions can be "typical math" like or symbolic like "first of (sort (append (‘dog’, ‘rabbit’) (sort ((‘mouse’, ‘cat’)))))"
2019-09-15T06:24:43Z [rg]: so what do we assume when we see expressions later in the paper?
2019-09-15T06:25:07Z [rg]: ggole, is it f applied to (x, y)
2019-09-15T06:25:21Z ggole: Yep.
2019-09-15T06:25:47Z [rg]: at the top of page 7 it says application can be expressed with .
2019-09-15T06:25:59Z [rg]: so can you write it f . (x, y)
2019-09-15T06:27:02Z ggole: Hmm, haven't seen that syntax before. Usually application is just juxtaposition.
2019-09-15T06:27:22Z [rg]: ok
2019-09-15T06:27:58Z [rg]: I guess the dot would be in the air like the dot product symbol
2019-09-15T06:28:25Z [rg]: F_x is an expression?
2019-09-15T06:29:01Z ggole: ·
2019-09-15T06:29:37Z ggole: It's the name of a definition
2019-09-15T06:30:05Z [rg]: how do I read the = here
2019-09-15T06:30:35Z ggole: Standard mathematical equality: you can substitute either side for the other
2019-09-15T06:30:44Z [rg]: ok
2019-09-15T06:30:58Z [rg]: so can I say let M = f(x,y), then λy.M is the same as λy.f (x, y)
2019-09-15T06:31:51Z [rg]: and  λy.M is what is called the abstraction?
2019-09-15T06:31:54Z ggole: Yes, but I should make it clear that '=' is not part of the lambda calculus itself
2019-09-15T06:32:07Z [rg]: ah ok
2019-09-15T06:32:21Z ggole: It's a notational convenience to make working with terms less tedious
2019-09-15T06:32:51Z [rg]: what is the importance of the variable y in  λy.M ?
2019-09-15T06:33:06Z [rg]: that is the bound variable correct?
2019-09-15T06:33:34Z [rg]: i changed the expression to M since it's a bit confusing
2019-09-15T06:33:43Z ggole: That's the name of the argument, yeah
2019-09-15T06:33:47Z [rg]: ok
2019-09-15T06:34:22Z [rg]: and it doesn't matter if the name is changed
2019-09-15T06:34:28Z [rg]: by page 7 on bound and free
2019-09-15T06:34:59Z [rg]: so I can say  λz.M means the same thing as  λy.M
2019-09-15T06:35:05Z [rg]: right?
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2019-09-15T06:35:35Z ggole: No, when you change the name of a binding you need to change the names of its uses
2019-09-15T06:36:30Z [rg]: what is meant by this expression? (λx.x)a = a = (λy.y)a
2019-09-15T06:36:35Z [rg]: page 7
2019-09-15T06:37:08Z [rg]: basically a simple function where x -> x right, but what does the name change mean
2019-09-15T06:38:06Z ggole: The name doesn't matter there (it's changed everywhere)
2019-09-15T06:38:23Z [rg]: ah ok
2019-09-15T06:39:02Z [rg]: so from expression *, the brackets are just to show association? (Fx)y = F_x y = f(x, y)
2019-09-15T06:39:05Z [rg]: page 8
2019-09-15T06:39:16Z [rg]: also thanks for helping me with this paper :)
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2019-09-15T06:39:58Z [rg]: they make so much sense with help, if only ##algebra was more active
2019-09-15T06:40:16Z ggole: The parens are redundant on the left, yes.
2019-09-15T06:40:32Z [rg]: yes! cool
2019-09-15T06:42:59Z [rg]: so F is applied to x and the result of that is applied to y
2019-09-15T06:44:09Z ggole: Yep
2019-09-15T06:44:54Z [rg]: ok, I think the next bit with abstraction will explain things
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2019-09-15T06:50:10Z [rg]: what happened with F? did it get redefined? F = λxy.f (x, y)
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2019-09-15T06:51:45Z ggole: They're equivalent terms, so not really
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2019-09-15T06:52:22Z [rg]: since F was F = λx.F_x how does y come in the mix?
2019-09-15T06:52:38Z [rg]: by the rule for iterated abstraction?
2019-09-15T06:52:49Z [rg]: or am I missing some other math concept
2019-09-15T06:53:35Z [rg]: oh wait
2019-09-15T06:55:04Z ggole: Yeah, look at the definition of F_x
2019-09-15T06:55:21Z ggole: Maybe write it out on a sheet of paper and do the substitution by hand if you are losing track.
2019-09-15T06:57:54Z [rg]: is λxy mean xy is a new variable name or those are for x and y seperately
2019-09-15T06:59:14Z la_zaifir: "λxy" is usually a shorthand for λx.λy
2019-09-15T06:59:29Z ggole: Yeah, this should be explained in the text somewhere
2019-09-15T06:59:40Z la_zaifir: IIRC Barendregt explains that notation (tersely, as usual!) early in that paper.
2019-09-15T06:59:47Z [rg]: oohhh
2019-09-15T06:59:59Z la_zaifir: Only one-argument functions here!
2019-09-15T07:02:54Z [rg]: la_zaifir, the only rule I saw so far was this λx.M[x] denotes the function x -> M[x],
2019-09-15T07:03:09Z [rg]: I am trying to determine that notation now
2019-09-15T07:03:22Z la_zaifir: Hmm, let me see if I can find it.  It's got to mean that, though.  Nothing else makes sense.
2019-09-15T07:04:09Z ggole: "Dually, iterated abstraction uses association to the right:" followed by an equation
2019-09-15T07:04:19Z ggole: Tersely indeed.
2019-09-15T07:04:47Z la_zaifir: Yeah, for an introduction that paper has an extremely high information density.
2019-09-15T07:06:05Z [rg]: hmm, it says x_n, but yeah that could mean any number of variables
2019-09-15T07:06:10Z la_zaifir: [rg]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus#Notation
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2019-09-15T07:07:08Z la_zaifir: "The following conventions are usually applied: ... A sequence of abstractions is contracted: λx.λy.λz.N is abbreviated as λxyz.N"
2019-09-15T07:07:22Z [rg]: thank you
2019-09-15T07:07:39Z la_zaifir: yw
2019-09-15T07:08:48Z [rg]: so for F it was λx.F_x --> λx.λy.f(x,y)
2019-09-15T07:09:07Z [rg]: ggole, yeah guess I should've written it out
2019-09-15T07:10:32Z [rg]: what does vector notation mean?
2019-09-15T07:10:34Z la_zaifir: Although λx.Fx is η-equivalent to just F.
2019-09-15T07:11:47Z ggole: That's F subscript x (which is defined in the text)
2019-09-15T07:11:51Z la_zaifir: In this context, it just means denoting a list (x1,...,xn) by a vector x->.
2019-09-15T07:12:44Z [rg]: yeah I use _ for subscript in plain text
2019-09-15T07:12:45Z la_zaifir: Sorry, that's not so clear.  It's just a compact way to write lists.
2019-09-15T07:14:59Z [rg]: what does this set mean? V = {v, v' , v" , . . .}
2019-09-15T07:15:07Z [rg]: all distinct variables?
2019-09-15T07:15:20Z [rg]: where V is a set of variables
2019-09-15T07:15:28Z la_zaifir: Yeah.
2019-09-15T07:15:57Z la_zaifir: v, v-prime, v-double-prime (or v-second, if you're a snooty type)
2019-09-15T07:15:59Z la_zaifir: etc.
2019-09-15T07:16:46Z [rg]: is the arrow notation rewrite rules?
2019-09-15T07:16:55Z [rg]: I get the bnf
2019-09-15T07:17:46Z ggole: Implication, I think. If x is in the set of variables, then x is in the set of lambda terms.
2019-09-15T07:18:56Z [rg]: ok, is it to early to consider what lambda terms are?
2019-09-15T07:19:03Z [rg]: cause that is my next thought
2019-09-15T07:19:14Z ggole: Well, they are being defined right there
2019-09-15T07:19:28Z ggole: So keep reading!
2019-09-15T07:20:18Z la_zaifir: [rg]: You might want to read Paul Hudak's very short intro: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/hudak/CS201S08/lambda.pdf
2019-09-15T07:20:29Z la_zaifir: [rg]: It's a bit less hardcore than Barendregt.
2019-09-15T07:21:38Z la_zaifir: Also, Hudak's 3-page paper tells you what lambda terms are in the first paragraph.  There's not much to tell.
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2019-09-15T07:25:03Z la_zaifir: Anyway, 'night all.
2019-09-15T07:25:55Z [rg]: ok night la_zaifir
2019-09-15T07:28:46Z [rg]: I will likely do that after I finish this section
2019-09-15T07:29:03Z [rg]: so, why did they not introduct the . in the bnf?
2019-09-15T07:31:11Z [rg]: oh wait, the remind us again with notation "λx_1 ..."
2019-09-15T07:33:18Z [rg]: thanks so much ggole
2019-09-15T07:33:29Z [rg]: I will be off for the night
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2019-09-15T07:34:08Z ggole: o/
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2019-09-15T10:33:45Z amz3: jcowan: what is the name you give to comparator objects? type class object??
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2019-09-15T12:46:59Z jcowan: amz3: You could.  But I don't see much gain in generalizing over different types: comparators, contexts, whatever else there might be (groups?)
2019-09-15T12:47:19Z jcowan: What they have in common is a design style, nothing in the language itself.
2019-09-15T12:47:42Z jcowan: amz3: ^^
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2019-09-15T13:41:44Z Riastradh: jcowan: Let's say every user address is allocated above #xb370000000000000.  As long as your tagged virtual address space is limited to a petabyte, you can just convert the bits from pointer to double by adding (#xfff - #xb37) << 52 instead of just adding #xfff << 52 as you did before.
2019-09-15T13:42:22Z Riastradh: jcowan: Now, yes, if the upper bits are randomized per allocation and you allocate the heap in separate chunks, there may be trouble.
2019-09-15T13:42:42Z jcowan: Just so, and address space randomization is increasingly seen as desirable.
2019-09-15T13:44:02Z Riastradh: But, you can also just reserve a petabyte of virtual address space on boot and then only use it as needed.
2019-09-15T13:44:18Z Riastradh: Or, use mmap(MAP_FIXED).
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2019-09-15T14:12:05Z jcowan: I suppose so, if you are willing to write your own memory allocator.
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2019-09-15T15:42:36Z Riastradh: jcowan: Like a Scheme garbage-collected heap?
2019-09-15T15:43:23Z jcowan: Yes, although it's common enough to keep sufficiently large objects out of the managed part of the heap.
2019-09-15T15:43:59Z Riastradh: Sure, but one can also have an indirection for such objects without much cost.
2019-09-15T15:46:12Z Riastradh: Also.
2019-09-15T15:46:29Z Riastradh: There's petabytes of space available!
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2019-09-15T16:15:20Z dieggsy: vector-ref should be a more efficient operation (complexity wise) that. list-ref, right? or is this implementation dependent
2019-09-15T16:15:21Z dieggsy: well I suppose it can always be implementation dependent, what does rnrs say?
2019-09-15T16:19:50Z rain2: expect list
2019-09-15T16:19:57Z rain2: expect list-ref to be O(n) and vector-ref O(1)
2019-09-15T16:20:19Z rain2: if vectors are implemented as lists then vector-ref will be slow, but that is rare
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2019-09-15T16:23:57Z gwatt: dieggsy: r[567]rs all say "the average time needed to access a randomly chosen element is typically less for the vector than for the list."
2019-09-15T16:25:10Z gwatt: so no hard rule from on high that vector-ref is constant time, but it's probably implemented that way in any scheme you would ever use.
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2019-09-15T16:25:47Z Riastradh: In practical terms, you are nearly guaranteed it's O(1), and the worst you might encounter in very exotic scenarios is O(log n).
2019-09-15T16:29:25Z dieggsy: hmmm
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2019-09-15T16:31:09Z dieggsy: I think for my application list operations might be more useful, and often those are implemented in terms of lists even for their vector equivalents. I may as well just use lists
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2019-09-15T22:27:57Z mdhughes: My rule of thumb is if I have less than a dozen items, not constantly looked up, make a list it's easier. Otherwise always use a vector or hash-table.
2019-09-15T22:29:28Z mdhughes: The only frustration with vector is there's not a growable vector in the standard. There's an egg for it in Chicken, and sometimes I just allocate extra slots and keep a counter, but ugh.
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2019-09-15T23:23:50Z jcowan: A growable-vector SRFI based on SRFI 133 would be perfectly reasonable.
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2019-09-15T23:24:29Z Riastradh: ...but what schedule of growth do you use...
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2019-09-15T23:26:15Z jcowan: factor of 1.5, or factor of 2 with an upper bound, after which we grow arithmetically.
2019-09-15T23:26:35Z Riastradh: Asymptotically suboptimal!
2019-09-15T23:27:13Z Riastradh: On a more serious note: maybe start with an existing growable-vector library, of which there are probably at least a handful?
2019-09-15T23:28:05Z Riastradh: (Here's one, though I'm not saying I recommend it: <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/xvector.scm>.)
2019-09-15T23:28:35Z aeth: upper bound! I've never thought about that
2019-09-15T23:28:43Z jcowan: 2 is asymptotically optimal, but so is the small martingale betting system (double your bet every time you lose).
2019-09-15T23:29:00Z shachaf: Some people say that a growth factor of 2 is bad, but the justification seems kind of weak to me.
2019-09-15T23:29:59Z shachaf: The justification I've seen is that if you double repeatedly, realloc can't ever reuse previous memory, because the requested amount will always be just too big.
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2019-09-15T23:30:23Z shachaf: I'm not sure how realistic that is, though. I guess 1.5 is no worse than 2 in general.
2019-09-15T23:30:25Z Riastradh: ...for particular implementations of realloc...
2019-09-15T23:30:52Z Riastradh: (How many Schemes would actually use realloc anyway?)
2019-09-15T23:31:56Z shachaf: It's true that Scheme allocations would probably look pretty different from C++.
2019-09-15T23:34:10Z jcowan: 2 is fine until you have grown your array to fill half of memory, and then add just one more element.
2019-09-15T23:34:31Z Riastradh: 1.5 is fine until you have grown your array to fill 2/3 of memory, and then just add one more element.
2019-09-15T23:35:33Z jcowan: Sure.  THat's the reasoning behind falling back from multiplicative to additive at some point.
2019-09-15T23:35:41Z aeth: Everything's fine until you run out of memory...
2019-09-15T23:37:39Z aeth: Someone should write a Scheme that serializes its memory contents to disk when you run out of RAM and then suspends operation while placing an order online for double your current RAM, and then waits for you to receive that shipment. That algorithm will work until you've reached your motherboard's maximum capacity, in which case it will have to switch to ordering a new (probably server) CPU+motherboard combination until you're at the limi
2019-09-15T23:37:51Z aeth: until you're at the limits of your architecture.
2019-09-15T23:39:00Z shachaf: I wonder how different the behavior of a growable array should be in the practical case where you know the upper bound on the size is N.
2019-09-15T23:39:31Z shachaf: Asymptotic analysis is really a rough approximation in many cases.
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2019-09-15T23:49:36Z aeth: Hmm, actually, I don't think you can ever run out of RAM if you design your Scheme the right way. Epyc 2 (the most recent x86-64 server release, from AMD) supports up to 4 TB of RAM. I'm not sure if dual CPU supports 8 TB or if 4 TB is for the dual CPU or if it's just 4 TB overall. But past that point just switch to a distributed architecture!
2019-09-15T23:49:47Z aeth: I don't think Scheme is specificed specifically enough to prevent that design decision
2019-09-15T23:50:47Z Riastradh: There's another much simpler approach: just sleep for an exponentially increasing delay each time you double the array.
2019-09-15T23:55:32Z aeth: Riastradh: It's simpler than that. Assuming that the server/desktop/workstation provider will keep doubling (or more) the maximum RAM until they reach the limit of the architecture (The Wikipedia page for [[x86-64]] says AMD64 can address up to 256 TB at the moment and can be extended up to 4 PB of RAM "in the future"), you only need to sleep when you hit the platform limit, for 1-3 years when the next doubling happens.
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2019-09-15T23:56:04Z la_zaifir: I like fixnum-indexed mappings (via SRFI 146, e.g.) for situations where the structure's going to grow and lists are too slow.
2019-09-15T23:56:35Z aeth: Interestingly, we only have 6 doublings left from AMD's current 4 TB before we hit that 256 TB wall. And if an improvement is more than double we'll hit that wall sooner.
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2019-09-15T23:56:55Z aeth: So potentially 6-12 years?
2019-09-16T00:00:23Z aeth: Ant Xeon might already be there, idk
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2019-09-16T00:50:07Z la_zaifir: let*: The poor man's IO monad.
2019-09-16T00:50:21Z la_zaifir: Sorry, disregard.
2019-09-16T00:57:17Z [rg]: hello la_zaifir
2019-09-16T00:57:22Z [rg]: hello all
2019-09-16T00:58:39Z [rg]: I hope computer science adopts prefix notation :)
2019-09-16T00:58:49Z la_zaifir: Hey [rg].
2019-09-16T00:59:57Z [rg]: any ideas why lambdas get adopted into imperative languages? isn't it a different type of machine?
2019-09-16T01:00:21Z [rg]: ill be back later
2019-09-16T01:00:43Z gwatt: [rg]: because they're useful. anonymous functions aren't for purely functional languages
2019-09-16T01:02:03Z la_zaifir: Indeed, they're often used in imperative code to provide local state.
2019-09-16T01:03:21Z jcowan: "Objects and their local state; the messages they pass."
2019-09-16T01:03:56Z la_zaifir: In the lambda order, they are all first-class.
2019-09-16T01:04:55Z jcowan: Just so.
2019-09-16T01:05:19Z jcowan: s/and/with
2019-09-16T01:05:56Z jcowan: Python lambdas don't have state, but of course nested definitions can.
2019-09-16T01:13:52Z [rg]: la_zaifir, what does state mean here?
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2019-09-16T01:14:44Z la_zaifir: A name for some location that you can assign to.
2019-09-16T01:15:06Z la_zaifir: You know, the thing imperative programmers spend 95% of their time doing?
2019-09-16T01:15:23Z [rg]: yeah
2019-09-16T01:15:38Z [rg]: why does the function need to be anonymous there?
2019-09-16T01:16:29Z pjb: things never need to be anonymous.
2019-09-16T01:16:32Z la_zaifir: It's the first-class-ness that's important in that case.
2019-09-16T01:16:50Z pjb: [rg]: it is even advised to give names to all your literals! (define-constant +fourty-two+ 42)
2019-09-16T01:17:04Z gwatt: pjb: still in #scheme here...
2019-09-16T01:18:34Z [rg]: la_zaifir, so basically a function pointer ?
2019-09-16T01:19:20Z la_zaifir: [rg]: We're Schemers, we can work with the procedure object without pointers, and it doesn't have to be some procedure defined at compile-time.
2019-09-16T01:20:02Z [rg]: la_zaifir, yes, I get that
2019-09-16T01:20:32Z [rg]: just trying to see why the idea is now being put in imperative style now
2019-09-16T01:20:35Z la_zaifir: [rg]: So it's a common technique in the LISP world to generate and pass around lots of anonymous procedures generated at runtime.
2019-09-16T01:20:40Z [rg]: it seems more confusing to do so
2019-09-16T01:20:52Z [rg]: la_zaifir, ah
2019-09-16T01:20:55Z la_zaifir: [rg]: Basically, they're catching up to where Alonzo Church was in the 30s.
2019-09-16T01:21:22Z la_zaifir: (Philip Wadler's joke, not mine.)
2019-09-16T01:22:07Z [rg]: ok, fair :P
2019-09-16T01:22:44Z [rg]: which is easier to write a compiler for? I would think imperative
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2019-09-16T01:23:32Z la_zaifir: Right, the power of first-class functions definitely comes at the cost of some challenges in implementing the language.
2019-09-16T01:23:57Z gwatt: [rg]: as an example, most of the design patterns are made redundant by having closures / anonymous functions.
2019-09-16T01:24:07Z jcowan: It depends on what language you are compiling into.
2019-09-16T01:24:34Z jcowan: There is, for example, a compiler from (parts of) Fortran into Common Lisp.
2019-09-16T01:25:06Z la_zaifir: [rg]: Maybe read this when you've got some more Scheme exposure, if you're interested in how first-class procedures can be compiled: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-scheme-to-c/
2019-09-16T01:36:12Z [rg]: ah matt might
2019-09-16T01:36:19Z [rg]: never got back to me...
2019-09-16T01:36:32Z [rg]: thanks la_zaifir
2019-09-16T01:36:48Z [rg]: jcowan, native
2019-09-16T01:37:31Z [rg]: gwatt, question, do design patterns happen outside of java, or are they just really labled there
2019-09-16T01:41:39Z gwatt: [rg]: I believe they were first introduced using smalltalk or C++, but any language that doesn't support closures will use similar patterns instead.
2019-09-16T01:46:06Z jcowan: It's syntax extensions that really make design patterns unnecessary.
2019-09-16T01:46:21Z jcowan: Closures help, but they can't do it all.
2019-09-16T01:47:30Z jcowan: The Google CL Style Guide says: "The general conclusion is that there shouldn't be any recognizable design pattern in a good Common Lisp program. The one and only pattern is: *use the language*, which includes defining and using syntactic abstractions."
2019-09-16T01:48:15Z jcowan: Or as Rich Hickey puts it: Patterns mean "I have run out of language."
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2019-09-16T02:32:42Z [rg]: jcowan, I agree
2019-09-16T02:32:58Z [rg]: gwatt, interesting
2019-09-16T02:34:02Z [rg]: is there any introductory papers on scheme machines that are of interest to you guys?
2019-09-16T02:40:26Z jcowan: The Steele and Sussman paper "Design of LISP-based Processors, or SCHEME: A Dielectric LISP, or Finite Memories Considered Harmful, or LAMBDA: The Ultimate Opcode" (1979) <https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/5731/AIM-514.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y>
2019-09-16T02:43:51Z [rg]: thanks
2019-09-16T02:44:02Z [rg]: larger than anticipated
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2019-09-16T02:49:34Z la_zaifir: Chapter 5 of SICP implements a nice Scheme virtual machine https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-34.html#%_sec_5.4
2019-09-16T03:02:07Z [rg]: found this too http://www.csc.villanova.edu/~beck/csc8310/BackusFP.pdf
2019-09-16T03:02:11Z [rg]: looks like apl tho
2019-09-16T03:11:46Z jcowan: No, Backus FP is a unique language.  Its only connection with APL is that it uses lots of non-ASCII symbols for compactness.
2019-09-16T03:13:06Z qu1j0t3: and to annoy the Fortran dweebs
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2019-09-16T03:29:27Z [rg]: thanks guys
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2019-09-16T10:07:39Z mdhughes: Design patterns happen in every language, Scheme programs are full of them like every other language. The Gang of Four book just collected the ones they'd observed in Smalltalk, and ported them to C++, later rewrites to Java etc.
2019-09-16T10:10:06Z mdhughes: But it's somewhat difficult to see them unless you've read Christopher Alexander's books, and written a lot of programs in some language, and specifically looked for the places where you repeat a structure for livability's sake.
2019-09-16T10:10:38Z mdhughes: People who think design patterns are recipes you have to follow are utterly missing the point, possibly not even literate.
2019-09-16T10:19:24Z mdhughes: Note that Smalltalk has closures and every other facility of Lisp/Scheme, it's a more expressive language if anything. Good architects/programmers noticing where people actually walk/code will build paths/patterns to facilitate them.
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2019-09-16T10:26:41Z mdhughes: Richard P. Gabriel's Patterns of Software https://archive.org/details/PatternsOfSoftware
2019-09-16T10:27:06Z mdhughes: Christopher Alexander's Notes on the Synthesis of Form https://archive.org/details/AlexanderChristopherNotesOnTheSynthesisOfForm
2019-09-16T10:27:20Z mdhughes: Christopher Alexander's Timeless Way of Building https://archive.org/details/TheTimelessWayOfBuilding
2019-09-16T10:27:26Z mdhughes: Little light reading for ya.
2019-09-16T10:31:57Z mdhughes: Oh, they also have a book with a great Chris Alexander essay, "The Perfection of Imperfection": https://archive.org/details/rootsbranchescon00junk/page/204
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2019-09-16T11:44:44Z mdhughes: -9,.d i https://mdhughes.tech/2019/09/16/design-patterns/
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2019-09-16T13:10:12Z amz3: I will prolly move the srfi-168 engine record, extend it to include all the interface of an okvs and move it to srfi-167 in a dedicated module. The rationale is the same as before, make it possible to swap okvs implementation and re-use higher level database abstractions (like nstore)
2019-09-16T13:11:56Z amz3: It just occured to me while trying to implement another layer on top of okvs, that such a thing as the engine is always needed. It allows for instance to test locally using the in-memory okvs and run on top of foundationdb in production.
2019-09-16T13:14:29Z jcowan: Perhaps 167 should point out that given an RDBMS that supports Latin-1, an implementation of an OKVS is trivial.
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2019-09-16T14:07:36Z retropikzel: Can I call a function using variable name in scheme?
2019-09-16T14:14:33Z qu1j0t3: retropikzel: maybe tell us about the bigger problem you're solving
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2019-09-16T14:16:29Z retropikzel: I have this http server and when you go to for example to "localhost/hello" then I used cond to call hello procedure, I was just wandering if I could call the hello procedure without cond statement.
2019-09-16T14:16:40Z retropikzel: *wondering
2019-09-16T14:17:38Z retropikzel: Because lets say I have 100 procedures you could use trough "localhosst/procname", then typing all those out would be pain.
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2019-09-16T14:20:45Z qu1j0t3: retropikzel: are there any security concerns in your spec?
2019-09-16T14:21:20Z retropikzel: Nope, I'm just testing things so anything that works is fine
2019-09-16T14:22:00Z qu1j0t3: a quite straightforward way to do it is to use a map from string to procedure... usually this is called defining routes, in other frameworks. it's not normally considered "too much typing" because it's an important decoupling step.
2019-09-16T14:28:35Z mdhughes: (eval (string->symbol method-name)) gets you the function for a string method-name…
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2019-09-16T14:30:55Z mdhughes: If you're going to remotely expose it, prefix all the function names with some unique identifier, and add that to the string you get from remote.
2019-09-16T14:31:34Z retropikzel: Thanks. Prefix is a good idea.
2019-09-16T14:31:40Z mdhughes: (eval (string->symbol (string-append "retropixel-" method-name)))
2019-09-16T14:39:04Z gwatt: Eval might not be the best choice here, as defines do not always register things in the top-level environment. I think a better choice is using a hashtable to associate the route to the function.
2019-09-16T14:42:12Z mdhughes: If you write the function in the top level, it's going to be visible to that eval. It's effectively the same as a top-level hash-table mapping.
2019-09-16T14:42:54Z retropikzel: I'm also thinking about seeing if file with procedure name exists and then loading it, it would contain lambda and then running it but would that load it every time I make a request?
2019-09-16T14:43:03Z retropikzel: loading and running it
2019-09-16T14:43:34Z retropikzel: Using hashtables would have added benefit of learning about hashtables :)
2019-09-16T14:43:35Z mdhughes: A routing table is definitely the way to go in C and Java, where names don't exist, but Python, Scheme, etc. you may as well use the language name table.
2019-09-16T14:44:36Z mdhughes: Loading a file presents a bunch of other problems, and you'd have to keep track of what you've loaded.
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2019-09-16T14:50:37Z rain2: don't use eval, create a table from symbols to procedures
2019-09-16T14:50:55Z rain2: then you can do a table lookup and execute the procedure you get back from that
2019-09-16T14:53:10Z amz3: retropikzel: quick tutorial on r7rs hash-table: (define ht (make-hash-table (make-default-comparator))) then (hash-table-set! ht 'key proc) eventually (hash-table-ref ht 'key)
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2019-09-16T15:00:21Z rain2: thinking about scheme-persist
2019-09-16T15:00:28Z rain2: have we got a direct implementation of sqlite protocol in scheme?
2019-09-16T15:00:33Z rain2: for doing prepared queries
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2019-09-16T15:15:14Z gwatt: mdhughes:
2019-09-16T15:15:39Z mdhughes: gwatt ;
2019-09-16T15:15:50Z gwatt: sorry, hit enter too early.
2019-09-16T15:16:35Z gwatt: If you're running a r6rs program, for example, defines do not necessarily populate the top-level environment.
2019-09-16T15:17:09Z gwatt: Even if the defines are at top-level
2019-09-16T15:18:30Z dto: g'morning schemers :)
2019-09-16T15:18:54Z amz3: o/
2019-09-16T15:19:18Z rain2: hi dto
2019-09-16T15:19:26Z dto: hello !
2019-09-16T15:19:29Z dto: how is everyone?
2019-09-16T15:19:47Z rain2: good
2019-09-16T15:19:57Z dto: hey cool
2019-09-16T15:19:58Z retropikzel: gwatt: where do they go? :s
2019-09-16T15:20:13Z rain2: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/57952374/scheme-function-that-receives-a-function-f-and-a-number-n
2019-09-16T15:20:36Z rain2: I flagged this comment because the sarcastic and patronizing opening "Fantastic, I commend your effort!" is not nice
2019-09-16T15:20:40Z dto: well i'm about a month into my explorations of scheme and i've written about 2 ,000 lines of code. a lot of fun! it's been a very pleasant experience. coming from elisp/cl
2019-09-16T15:20:55Z dto: heh rain2 yeah
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2019-09-16T15:21:19Z gwatt: retropikzel: they're accessible only lexically.
2019-09-16T15:21:27Z dto: i can even do object orientation because Snd-scheme includes a mini-CLOS
2019-09-16T15:21:55Z rain2: oh are you doing some kind of music thing?
2019-09-16T15:22:36Z dto: yep! http://xelf.me/scheme-mosaic.html  <---- my new emacs stuff is a frontend for this
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2019-09-16T15:24:14Z mdhughes: gwatt: I don't know how to disprove that, except that top-level names seem to work on my machine…
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2019-09-16T15:24:46Z dto: S7 Scheme is great . in three weeks i have a working concatenative synthesis system
2019-09-16T15:26:09Z dto: rain2: are you into funky music?
2019-09-16T15:26:14Z rain2: yeah
2019-09-16T15:26:30Z gwatt: mdhughes: https://pastebin.com/6pqKjaKp
2019-09-16T15:26:39Z rain2: it's really cool that you're easily bending scheme to achieve this
2019-09-16T15:27:03Z mdhughes: If you can reach a name by typing it in your code, eval at the same point will see it. (again I always use the one-arg eval instead of providing an environment, which isn't strictly legit; type (interaction-environment) as the second arg in a stricter system)
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2019-09-16T15:31:03Z gwatt: mdhughes: well that's definitely not true.
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2019-09-16T15:31:44Z mdhughes: Huh. I hadn't used top-level-program before, but it should have some way to declare foo as export; it's limiting scope like a library.
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2019-09-16T15:33:35Z mdhughes: And that form doesn't exist in R5 or R7.
2019-09-16T15:34:54Z gwatt: correct, it's chezscheme specific to allow running in R6RS mode outside of a library or a program
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2019-09-16T15:42:57Z dto: rain2: yeah you can mix and match
2019-09-16T15:43:13Z dto: rain2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAPzNsmH2BU this is funky :)
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2019-09-16T15:48:14Z dto: rain2: the idea is that you make special cells to set up the data you want, let the user tweak them and add new cells etc, then "compile" the spreadsheet to whatever kind of info you want. then i can pass those lisp forms into Scheme through SND-SEND-STRING
2019-09-16T15:48:27Z dto: because Emacs loads Snd as an inferior comint process
2019-09-16T15:48:41Z rain2: i see. that sounds nice and simple
2019-09-16T15:49:54Z dto: also, cells can be clickable and tell Snd to do things at any time
2019-09-16T15:50:10Z dto: with new emacs lisp threads i should be able to make the UI quite responsive
2019-09-16T15:51:14Z dto: ok enough emacs talk :)
2019-09-16T15:51:16Z dto: hehe
2019-09-16T15:51:50Z dto: but it could be cool as a ui for other scheme programs since they are likely using emacs anyway
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2019-09-17T02:06:46Z emma: over the years some of the smartest people I ever met on Freenode were regulars of this channel.
2019-09-17T02:17:57Z zbrown: Hi emma :)
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2019-09-17T09:32:50Z rain2: I sent a mail to scheme persist
2019-09-17T09:33:01Z rain2: about dotted canonical s-exps
2019-09-17T09:33:12Z rain2: adn it would be good to start a thread about records I think
2019-09-17T09:33:23Z rain2: i also thought about starting one about persistent closures but im not sure
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2019-09-17T11:58:23Z jcowan: Persistent closures are going to be inherently unportable, and you'd have to have very intimate interactions with the core of the implementation to make it possible.  I suspect most compilers-to-C wouldn't be able to persist a closure at run time at all.
2019-09-17T11:59:35Z jcowan: (I do, I do, I do wish _persistent_ didn't have two separate meanings.)
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2019-09-17T12:12:03Z gwatt: Is one of the meanings "serializable" ?
2019-09-17T12:13:56Z mdhughes: Hm. Most of the fast Schemes use a compiled form for everything, so even if you could write bindings out, you couldn't write the code they're embedded in.
2019-09-17T12:14:47Z mdhughes: Maybe if you're making a closure-object, just add 'save and 'restore messages so you can reconstitute it in code?
2019-09-17T12:15:28Z ggole: Function addresses aren't necessarily portable across processes, let alone machines
2019-09-17T12:16:14Z ggole: With a helpful enough implementation you could probably hack something up that would 'work' in favourable situations
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2019-09-17T13:04:26Z jcowan: persistent1: can outlive the program that created it
2019-09-17T13:05:03Z jcowan: persistent2: having the ability to retain references to a previous state
2019-09-17T13:05:25Z jcowan: an array is persistent1 if it can be written to disk (but there are other ways)
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2019-09-17T13:05:59Z jcowan: it is persistent2 if you can call array-set (no !) and get a different array without disturbing the existing array (copying it usually does not count)
2019-09-17T13:06:39Z jcowan: alists are both persistent1 (viewed as S-expressions) and persistent2 (if viewed as maps that change only by consing)
2019-09-17T13:09:16Z ecraven: is persistent2 the same as immutable?
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2019-09-17T13:19:47Z jcowan: No.
2019-09-17T13:20:19Z jcowan: persistent data structures can be built on top of either mutable or immutable data structures
2019-09-17T13:21:30Z jcowan: You can build a persistent array out of a tree, where you copy the ancestral nodes only
2019-09-17T13:21:58Z jcowan: or out of an ordinary array plus a rollback/rollforward log, as Henry Baker did
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2019-09-17T13:22:37Z jcowan: his implementation uses clever pointer reversing to be able to restore from any state of the array to any other state
2019-09-17T13:22:52Z jcowan: in time proportional to the number of differences
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2019-09-17T18:58:41Z amz3: even the developer of curl doesn't get paid for his work :(
2019-09-17T18:58:58Z LeoNerd: Most opensource developers don't. The few of us who do are quite lucky for it
2019-09-17T19:00:02Z amz3: well the situation is very bad.
2019-09-17T19:00:50Z amz3: according to that article https://onezero.medium.com/the-internet-relies-on-people-working-for-free-a79104a68bcc
2019-09-17T19:01:04Z amz3: even in case of emergency the company refused to pay :(
2019-09-17T19:01:06Z LeoNerd: Yah it's not great, but what realistically are most folks gonna do about it?
2019-09-17T19:02:47Z wasamasa: I wonder whether the situation will blow up
2019-09-17T19:02:59Z nisstyre: it already has
2019-09-17T19:03:01Z nisstyre: see: heartbleed
2019-09-17T19:03:38Z amz3: +1
2019-09-17T19:14:46Z jcowan: The thing is that based on experience The End Of The World just isn't that bad.
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2019-09-17T19:15:27Z jcowan: Maybe various Christian sects are correct and the world did end in 1918 or so, and the last century has just been a hallucination until the Last Judgement.
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2019-09-17T19:17:13Z aeth: jcowan: no, don't be silly, the world ended in 2012
2019-09-17T19:17:22Z jcowan: That too.
2019-09-17T19:17:49Z gwatt: was that the harold camping guy?
2019-09-17T19:17:54Z aeth: amz3: It looks like the only way to do critical FOSS infrastructure these days is to be a huge tech company that's so profitable you can afford to "lose" money on FOSS.
2019-09-17T19:18:03Z aeth: The main exception being Firefox, I guess.
2019-09-17T19:18:15Z aeth: (Either direct projects from the company, or indirectly by hiring the devs.)
2019-09-17T19:18:25Z jcowan: One of Smullyan's dialogue characters held this sort of anti-realist position: what seems real while you are dreaming is obviously all your head when you awake, and what seems real now may very well be all in Somebody's head when you die.
2019-09-17T19:18:39Z gwatt: Ah, no. Harold Camping predicted the Rapture in 2011.
2019-09-17T19:19:20Z jcowan: The Millerites thought it would be 1843-44
2019-09-17T19:20:23Z jcowan: And many were big on the year 1000.
2019-09-17T19:21:14Z jcowan: 7th Day Adventists are a descendant of the Millerites
2019-09-17T19:22:21Z jcowan: Oct 23 1844 was called the Great Disappointment
2019-09-17T19:27:11Z Blukunfando: That article reads like it’d do a pretty good job of convincing lots of people that open source needs to be banned.
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2019-09-17T19:33:08Z amz3: aeth: somewhat yes, but those that can afford to pay dev on floss project, do it in their only interest so you would not work on scheme for instance, except at google as part of the 120%
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2019-09-17T21:17:32Z mdhughes: If someone asks you to work for free, this is the response: https://youtu.be/mj5IV23g-fE
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2019-09-17T21:38:23Z weinholt: well, i hope they pay him for that clip
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2019-09-18T08:57:03Z amz3: mdhughes: to the point
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2019-09-18T10:42:59Z amz3: srfi-167, srfi-168 and srfi-173 new drafts were pushed and will (prolly) be published Very Soon (tm)
2019-09-18T10:44:19Z amz3: in the field of math questions: do complex number have a natural ordering? extend question: can one pack complex number while preserving their natural order?
2019-09-18T10:44:30Z amz3: s/pack/encode/
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2019-09-18T11:07:23Z Duns_Scrotus: No
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2019-09-18T11:07:34Z Duns_Scrotus: To the first question and the second
2019-09-18T11:08:19Z Duns_Scrotus: Depending what you mean, one cannot “encode” complex numbers at all
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2019-09-18T11:25:13Z amz3: thanks
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2019-09-18T12:35:16Z jcowan: I imposed arbitrary lexicographic order in the comparator SRFI so that numbers could be ordered.
2019-09-18T12:35:28Z jcowan: That is, order by the real part, and if those are the same, by the imaginary part.
2019-09-18T12:47:46Z jcowan: However, binary ordering of IEEE binary64 floats does not give numeric ordering.  What it gives is: 0.0, positive floats in increasing order, +inf.0, NaNs, -0.0, negative floats in decreasing order, -inf.0, more NaNs.
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2019-09-18T13:17:30Z lockywolf: Where can I find the (rogers) function?
2019-09-18T13:17:54Z jcowan: amz3: ^^
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2019-09-18T13:40:40Z lockywolf__: I mean, SICP just uses the 'rogers' painter as if it is something given, even though also referencing Wikimedia as the source of the bitmap.
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2019-09-18T16:39:37Z wasamasa: lockywolf: I'd expect racket to have such a thing
2019-09-18T16:39:52Z wasamasa: lockywolf: otherwise you'll have to make your own
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2019-09-18T20:18:32Z rain2: i don't really understand what the scheme persist ML is about
2019-09-18T20:18:36Z rain2: everybody keeps talking about SQL
2019-09-18T20:18:39Z rain2: what's the aim with that?
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2019-09-18T21:30:48Z jcowan: A good way to persist things (in the sense of having them survive the current process, not in the FP sense) is to write them to databases.
2019-09-18T21:31:02Z ec is now known as ELLIOTTCABLE
2019-09-18T21:31:03Z jcowan: rain2: ACID and all that.
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2019-09-18T21:33:49Z aeth: A good way to persist things by writing to databases is to use MongoDB... who needs ACID?!
2019-09-18T21:34:03Z aeth: Just throw a bunch of JSON at the problem!
2019-09-18T21:34:16Z jcowan snortles
2019-09-18T21:35:02Z jcowan: I'm glad you mentioned Mongo (Ming of) because now I know that is wrote Sarkasticul.
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2019-09-18T21:59:18Z Riastradh: ACID: that's what you throw on your data to keep it clean and fast, right?
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2019-09-18T22:04:14Z gnomon: ACID, along with salt, fat, and heat, is what makes data delicious
2019-09-18T22:05:21Z Riastradh: <mongodb> u made me a data but i ated it
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2019-09-18T22:46:03Z jcowan: the four food groups: Pizza, Chocolate, Beer, and Other
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2019-09-19T04:43:31Z teardown: okay so readline works but... nothing else does? termbin.com/1da49
2019-09-19T04:49:10Z teardown: sorry wrong window
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2019-09-19T08:29:34Z rain2: Atomicity, Consistency, Isolation, Durability
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2019-09-19T09:43:30Z mdhughes: Mongo only pawn in… uh, MongoDB's ACID now, more or less: https://www.mongodb.com/blog/post/multi-document-transactions-in-mongodb
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2019-09-19T09:44:57Z mdhughes: I probably wouldn't use it for anything I cared about, and their licensing terms are awful, but it's a "real database" at last.
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2019-09-19T10:49:02Z amz3: wiredtiger is only GPL 2.0 ;)
2019-09-19T10:51:05Z amz3: hugh_marera:  you spamming the channel with join/quit message :/
2019-09-19T10:53:07Z hugh_marera: amz3: apologies. it's the limechat client timing out...i will disable autologin
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2019-09-19T15:24:32Z lockywolf_: It's not that he is spamming. It's just IRC is a broken protocol.
2019-09-19T15:26:43Z lockywolf_: What is an inexact integer?
2019-09-19T15:27:33Z LeoNerd: I'm not sure such a concept exists, does it?
2019-09-19T15:27:45Z lockywolf_: For which integer would (and (integer? x) (not (exact-integer? x)) return #f?
2019-09-19T15:28:04Z lockywolf_: Sorry, return #t
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2019-09-19T15:28:37Z lockywolf_: LeoNerd, well, there are two predicates available.
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2019-09-19T15:29:17Z LeoNerd: I would imagine that no value can be both (integer?) and not (exact?) at the same time
2019-09-19T15:31:41Z ecraven: well, "about 1000" would be an inexact integer
2019-09-19T15:32:55Z ecraven: #i123## for example
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2019-09-19T16:04:53Z jcowan: inexact numbers are intervals, so 123.0 (or #i123, same thing) is the interval centered on exact 123 that reachest to 123.0's nearest neighbors.
2019-09-19T16:05:24Z jcowan: so the integer? predicate responds true to both that and ordinary exact integers.
2019-09-19T16:16:31Z ecraven: where does it say that #i123 is the same as 123.0? could an implementation not support arbitrary-precision floats, and have 123.0 (or 123.3 for that matter) be exact?
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2019-09-19T16:48:28Z francogrex: Hi, anyone knows of a program that can "translate" scheme into C or java. I am not talking compiling, only translating the s-expressions.
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2019-09-19T16:57:24Z ecraven: that *is* compiling
2019-09-19T16:58:39Z amz3: francogrex: transpiler?
2019-09-19T16:58:57Z jcowan: ecraven: 6.2.5 says: "If the written representation of a number has no exactness prefix, the constant is inexact if it contains a decimal point or an exponent. Otherwise, it is exact."
2019-09-19T16:58:58Z amz3: I am not sure what you mean by "only translating s-expressions"
2019-09-19T16:59:35Z jcowan: I think he means an implementation of read/write in Java or C.  Such things obviously exist in Java and C implementations of Scheme, but might not be too easy to lift from their context.
2019-09-19T16:59:36Z ecraven: jcowan: hm.. so that prevents a Scheme from interpreting float literals as exact.. thanks for the clarification!
2019-09-19T17:00:21Z amz3: francogrex: you want to parse s-expressions?
2019-09-19T17:00:23Z jcowan: it also means that 32/10 and #i3.2 are the same object.
2019-09-19T17:00:28Z francogrex: not really, the java or C code need not be correct (i.e), just a parser
2019-09-19T17:00:32Z francogrex: amz3 yes
2019-09-19T17:00:40Z ecraven: #e3.2, right?
2019-09-19T17:00:45Z jcowan: sorry, yes
2019-09-19T17:00:52Z amz3: francogrex: the point of s-expr is that it is easy to write a parser for it.
2019-09-19T17:01:06Z jcowan: I always seem to make that mistake, as if #i stood for "not intuitive"
2019-09-19T17:01:14Z amz3: francogrex: of course, it can become very complex but the basics are simple.
2019-09-19T17:01:18Z aeth: producing C-style strings (or writing C files) from s-expressions is trivial.
2019-09-19T17:01:38Z aeth: Preserving Scheme semantics instead of just expressing C (or Java) in s-expressions? Now that's another story.
2019-09-19T17:01:53Z amz3: aeth: that is a compiler!
2019-09-19T17:02:12Z aeth: amz3: if by that you mean both, the former is something I can do in a weekend and the latter is something I can do in a year
2019-09-19T17:02:13Z francogrex: this maybe? https://github.com/julianmendez/jsexp
2019-09-19T17:02:43Z ecraven: you can write a simple compiler in a weekend too..
2019-09-19T17:03:06Z amz3: francogrex: maybe :)
2019-09-19T17:03:14Z amz3: francogrex: light on actual documentation.
2019-09-19T17:03:28Z aeth: ecraven: maybe you can
2019-09-19T17:04:22Z ecraven: aeth: SICP can
2019-09-19T17:04:36Z aeth: There's a major difference in effort, though. Maybe I was overestimating "weekend" for the former. Really, one sitting. It's stuff like (+ x y z (* 3 4 w)) => "(x + y + z (3 * 4 * w))"
2019-09-19T17:05:15Z aeth: If you only need to create a useful, valid subset instead of supporting the entire language, you can easily do that transformation system in a few hours (with tests!)
2019-09-19T17:06:40Z aeth: Meanwhile, handling things like continuations and tail recursion in a true Scheme->C transpiler could probably be written in a weekend, but only if you researched and wrote a bunch of attempts beforehand to get the experience.
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2019-09-19T17:06:55Z aeth: Oh, and the numeric tower.
2019-09-19T17:07:39Z aeth: I mean, at that point it's only a weekend project if you can call libnumerictower.so that you already wrote
2019-09-19T17:08:28Z aeth: (And, yes, I left out a + in my example transformation. Machines are better at such tasks than I am.)
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2019-09-19T17:50:02Z mdhughes: A Scheme tokenizer is trivial. And once you have that, you could make it emit a translation from each known symbol. But you'll have a lot of edge cases, and it'll smash the stack when you run it.
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2019-09-19T17:51:09Z mdhughes: You might find SCM useful: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/SCM
2019-09-19T17:52:47Z mdhughes: francogrex: (not sure why LimeChat eats my reply-tos when I paste in)
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2019-09-19T19:40:11Z siraben: Anyone know of a good implementation of Scheme for the Z80?
2019-09-19T19:40:31Z siraben: Preferably one that can run under TI-OS on the TI-84+ calculator
2019-09-19T19:41:51Z siraben: Kent Dybvig mentions Z80 several times in his "The Development of Chez Scheme": https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/hocs.pdf
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2019-09-19T20:43:20Z dto: the spreadsheet on the upper right compiles to the scheme code just below it. the classes being instantiated are from SchemeMosaic. this is a generalized method of configuring a chain of mix/match/chop/screw synths. it's ugly though. needs prettifying and easy UI completion for https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/npZpaXMX/Screenshot%20from%202019-09-19%2016-33-32.png
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2019-09-19T21:33:14Z dTal: siraben: that's a fantastic question I've often wondered about
2019-09-19T21:33:44Z dTal: I'm pretty sure you could profitably port one of the tiniest Scheme implementations in C
2019-09-19T21:34:01Z amz3: I think this question comes up once a week
2019-09-19T21:34:17Z dTal: I've never seen it asked in here before
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2019-09-20T02:27:35Z [rg]: hello
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2019-09-20T04:06:55Z lockywolf: Got it. So an inexact integer is 1.0.
2019-09-20T04:25:42Z lockywolf: Why does scheme uses the ascending naming convention rather than descending (as most other languages do)?
2019-09-20T04:26:36Z lockywolf: That is, in SICP, structure constructors are usually (make-something . x)
2019-09-20T04:27:04Z lockywolf: And selectors are (subsomething1-something something), and (subsomething2-something something)
2019-09-20T04:27:43Z lockywolf: That's a bit weird, because there may be trillions of things that have something1 as a member.
2019-09-20T04:28:24Z lockywolf: The amount of classes is almost naturally smaller than the number of fields in all those classes.
2019-09-20T04:29:59Z [rg]: lockywolf, how far along are you in sicp?
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2019-09-20T04:40:09Z lockywolf: [rg], implementing the picture language
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2019-09-20T04:42:36Z lockywolf: That's actually the second time I'm doing sicp.
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2019-09-20T05:21:50Z ecraven: is there a reason bytevector=? doesn't exist in r7rs? all the others do :-/
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2019-09-20T09:26:17Z lockywolf: is there an easy way to generate unique file names in scheme?
2019-09-20T09:30:37Z amz3: man mkstemp via cffi
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2019-09-20T09:50:46Z mdhughes: Portably? (symbol->string (gensym)) sorta; don't rely on it in multithreaded or shared systems. Otherwise find a native library like amz3 said.
2019-09-20T09:51:31Z amz3: good idea about gensim
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2019-09-20T09:51:37Z amz3: teardown: o/
2019-09-20T09:51:39Z amz3: oops
2019-09-20T09:51:43Z amz3: sorry!
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2019-09-20T09:53:37Z amz3: TCZ: hello
2019-09-20T09:53:46Z amz3: TCZ: what are you up to?
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2019-09-20T10:16:05Z jcowan: ecraven: The bytevector lib in R7RS was kept minimal because we didn't know whether bytevectors would be used directly as numeric-only vectors, or whether numeric-only vectors would be layered on top of them.  We ended up with the second option in SRFI 160, but we also have (r6rs bytevectors) as part of R7RS-large
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2019-09-20T14:12:17Z lockywolf: How do I evaluate something in compile-time? Apart from er-macro-transformer?
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2019-09-20T14:22:20Z belmarca: lockywolf: you write a macro
2019-09-20T14:22:38Z belmarca: which will be expanded
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2019-09-20T14:57:07Z lockywolf: Who remembers sicp-2.49? The part "d", create a "wave" painter using segments->painter is not solvable exactly, right?
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2019-09-20T15:04:52Z lockywolf: I mean, the tiny wavy comrade on the picture in the book is clearly drawn using smooth curves. Does the book imply that I should implement, say, Bezier curves approximation using straight lines?
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2019-09-20T15:58:59Z amz3: lockywolf: i would say yet.
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2019-09-20T16:18:36Z mdhughes: The illustration in my copy isn't smooth curves, just segmented line drawing to points.
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2019-09-20T16:19:41Z mdhughes: When you're doing a Bresenham line, just draw every M pixels on, N pixels off.
2019-09-20T16:23:01Z mdhughes: Sadly the book does not include point data or bitmaps for wave or rogers.
2019-09-20T16:23:13Z wasamasa: you'll have to do it like a painter, by eye
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2019-09-20T16:24:14Z mdhughes: Or find a scanner, as we did back in the day. Now you'd just screencap, but when I worked through it the idea of a book on a computer was ludicrous.
2019-09-20T16:24:36Z wasamasa: where's the fun in that
2019-09-20T16:24:41Z wasamasa: the chapter is all about painters
2019-09-20T16:25:01Z wasamasa: rudybot: schemers and painters
2019-09-20T16:25:03Z rudybot: wasamasa: famous painters get around a lot why do you think the expression "would you like to come up to my room to see my other works?" became famous?
2019-09-20T16:25:11Z mdhughes: About making machines be your painters. I'm a programmer. "Get back to work! That's what you get for not having a college education." —Dr Hathaway
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2019-09-20T16:46:11Z jcowan has a college education, just not a college degree.  Oh yes, it's in Communications and Media, but mostly focuse on English literature.
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2019-09-20T16:56:00Z mdhughes: I didn't graduate either, the WWW paid more than finishing a semester of elective credits I didn't want to take.
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2019-09-20T16:56:29Z mdhughes: And I didn't even get flunked out by Dr Hathaway.
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2019-09-20T18:33:09Z jcowan: I quit a few credits short because my mother died, and just never went back.
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2019-09-20T19:16:44Z amz3: jcowan: about the interface SPI et al. in the thread of generators vs. ports
2019-09-20T19:17:04Z amz3: jcowan: sorry, I am way out of my league, but do type class object help?
2019-09-20T19:17:18Z jcowan: Hmm.
2019-09-20T19:17:23Z jcowan: Gotta think about that.
2019-09-20T19:18:19Z amz3: also I assume you don't want to do things like (port-exec port 'put-u8 vu8(42))
2019-09-20T19:18:30Z amz3: like poor-man oop
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2019-09-20T20:03:51Z [rg]: hello
2019-09-20T20:04:16Z DKordic: Hi [rg].
2019-09-20T20:05:15Z [rg]: what is a simple way of describing the machines for comparability in lambda calculus?
2019-09-20T20:05:18Z [rg]: or rather
2019-09-20T20:05:37Z [rg]: how does lambda calulus reconcile with automata theory?
2019-09-20T20:06:04Z [rg]: computability*
2019-09-20T20:07:21Z [rg]: also, for critical systems, is there a way of formally specifying theme in scheme? like frama-c for c
2019-09-20T20:07:27Z [rg]: or is it not necessary
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2019-09-20T20:09:06Z wasamasa: as if someone would write critical systems in scheme
2019-09-20T20:10:05Z DKordic: [rg]: Are You thinking about the equivalence of lambda calculus and some other model of computation?
2019-09-20T20:10:30Z [rg]: DKordic, yes
2019-09-20T20:10:48Z [rg]: how does it relate to automata theory
2019-09-20T20:11:01Z [rg]: and, how would I then write a compiler? in a general sense
2019-09-20T20:11:10Z DKordic: Interesting question!  IDK (yet).
2019-09-20T20:11:20Z [rg]: I have an excellent book right now, but seems only fit for imperative still programming
2019-09-20T20:11:23Z [rg]: ok
2019-09-20T20:11:32Z [rg]: s/still/style
2019-09-20T20:12:35Z DKordic: Which book is it?
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2019-09-20T20:15:07Z [rg]: introduction to compiler construction by thomas w.parsons
2019-09-20T20:15:29Z [rg]: but this might be after ramming my head through other dense material
2019-09-20T20:15:38Z [rg]: the goal is to prepare you for the dragon book
2019-09-20T20:16:57Z [rg]: excellent writer, I would get anything else by him too
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2019-09-21T02:49:16Z lockywolf: Well, I googled the designs for wave and rogers. It's just that this chapter seems a bit of a mess, especially compared to the other chapters.
2019-09-21T02:49:36Z lockywolf: Sorry, not chapter, just this section.
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2019-09-21T02:55:58Z lockywolf: mdhughes, I am using the UTF 2.andresraba5.6 (February 2, 2016)
2019-09-21T02:58:20Z mdhughes: I don't know what that means. I'm looking at a download of SICP, and got a print copy somewhere back in the shelves.
2019-09-21T03:01:04Z mdhughes: https://imgur.com/hbUpuiu
2019-09-21T03:01:47Z pjb: Are the sources of the wave painter available?
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2019-09-21T03:13:21Z mdhughes: Not so I know. You have to figure it out yourself. Back in '90-ish I used a scan to identify the corner pixels. Not otherwise hard to build all that.
2019-09-21T03:18:15Z mdhughes: … The graphics stuff was probably added in 2nd ed, or in a supplement in between? I think I was doing that one post-college now I think about where I got the scan.
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2019-09-21T16:58:11Z amz3: rudybot: what the world needs is another string library.
2019-09-21T16:58:23Z rudybot: amz3: Man, pulseaudio needs a tutorial. Or a 'hello, world'. Or something. It's frustrating trying to understand how to use the library reading the sources.
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2019-09-21T17:21:59Z ecraven: hm.. libarchive has a surprisingly sane, almost pleasant API!
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2019-09-21T17:23:36Z emma: ecraven: what is it an API for?
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2019-09-21T17:24:55Z ecraven: archives, like tar.gz, zip, iso, ...
2019-09-21T17:24:59Z ecraven: reading and writing
2019-09-21T17:25:01Z emma: ohh
2019-09-21T17:25:03Z ecraven: just wrapping it in chez's ffi
2019-09-21T17:25:10Z emma: and is this something that can be used with scheme?
2019-09-21T17:25:20Z ecraven: specifically, I want to create zip files in-memory, and serve them over http (specifically again .xlsx files)
2019-09-21T17:25:33Z emma: oh wow that's neat
2019-09-21T17:26:19Z emma: Ive always been curious how do people make libraries or extended parts of scheme (or any language) where it seems to do more things than you could do with the language alone.
2019-09-21T17:26:28Z ecraven: well, not yet ;) I used to use temporary files, but that doesn't work as well as I hoped for
2019-09-21T17:26:55Z ecraven: well, I've written a very basic Xorg client in pure Scheme years ago, so as long as you can read and write bytes, there's nothing you cannot do
2019-09-21T17:27:17Z emma: okay so you are saying ... somehow you use the language to read bytes
2019-09-21T17:27:48Z ecraven: read-u8 and write-u8 in r7rs are your friends ;)
2019-09-21T17:28:07Z ecraven: what you cannot do in r7rs Scheme is interact with the network (tcp/udp/domain)
2019-09-21T17:28:12Z emma: okay I think that helps to make sense of how that's possible.
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2019-09-21T17:28:23Z ecraven: that would be great to have, but I understand why it isn't part of any rnrs so far
2019-09-21T17:29:01Z emma: Im not sure if I was phrasing what Im curious about correctly. It's a little vauge even to me.
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2019-09-21T17:30:42Z emma: I think it's a bit like... I can see how to make my own scheme functions using built-in functions.  But each of those built-in functions must have some code which gives them their functionality. And a lot of the stuff that one sees in 'libraries' and the like seems to have that character.
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2019-09-21T17:30:58Z emma: Where they are doing more than it would seem possible if you were just combining built-in functions.
2019-09-21T17:31:19Z emma: Am I verbalizing what I am wondering about effectively?
2019-09-21T17:32:22Z ecraven: well, if you have arithmetic and reading/writing of bytes, there's not much you cannot do, in theory
2019-09-21T17:32:31Z ecraven: of course, accessing *hardware* for example is a different matter
2019-09-21T17:32:36Z ecraven: but calculation-wise, you can write whatever..
2019-09-21T17:33:51Z emma: well when you say 'bytes' what do you mean by that specifially?  1's and 0's from something?
2019-09-21T17:34:01Z ecraven: octets
2019-09-21T17:36:52Z emma: octets
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2019-09-21T17:41:24Z emma: I get what an octet is but where do you get them from? How do you access them? Most things aren't going to already be written as octets are they?
2019-09-21T17:42:02Z ecraven: you open a file (which r7rs supports), then just read one byte after another
2019-09-21T17:42:09Z ecraven: almost everything is a "file" in some sense
2019-09-21T17:42:50Z emma: when you open up some arbitrary file it isn't octets is it?  I don't know what it actually is when it's not text though.
2019-09-21T17:43:31Z ecraven: bytes. everything on a computer is (and on every modern computer it is octets, I don't know of any current machine that uses non-8-bit-bytes)
2019-09-21T17:43:56Z emma: but you are saying that arbitrary files consist of bytes and octets?
2019-09-21T17:44:08Z emma: 0's and 1's?
2019-09-21T17:44:53Z emma: When a file isn't a text fiile I always assumed that whatever is actually in there is very particular to whatever wrote that file to begin with.
2019-09-21T17:45:27Z ecraven: it is, but 8 0's and 1's together make one byte, and almost everything is based on that
2019-09-21T17:45:49Z emma: Maybe Im also confusing the idea of it being 0's and 1's with it being a text file of 0's and 1's. I guess that would obviously be ridiculous. Somehow it is bytes of 0's and 1's but not written as text but somehow represented by something else....
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2019-09-21T18:05:32Z ecraven: I really like libarchive ;) it's rather easy to create zip files in memory with it, it handles errors well too
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2019-09-21T18:09:39Z jcowan: emma: The zeros and ones in question are stored very efficiently, and they are the lowest common denominator for computers.  As ecraven says, they are grouped for convenience into groups of 8 called bytes ("octets" is standards-speak).
2019-09-21T18:10:57Z jcowan: It takes 1, 2, 3, or 4 bytes to represent a single character of text.  Roughly speaking, the most common characters get the shortest representations, so the *characters* 0 and 1 are normally represented as 1 byte each.
2019-09-21T18:13:13Z mdhughes: emma: If you use a hex editor (Hex Fiend on Mac, HxD on Windows, hexedit on Linux), you can see exactly what the bytes in a file are; in text files they're what you expect mostly, except Unicode. In binary files, they might be read as text or integers of 1-8 bytes in a row.
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2019-09-21T18:24:44Z mdhughes: I don't know of any modern equivalent to the "what is a computer" books of my youth: https://archive.org/details/Understanding_Digital_Computers_1978_Radio_Shack
2019-09-21T18:25:27Z mdhughes: But that's how I learned binary, hex, and digital logic.
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2019-09-21T19:44:51Z amz3`: the above is somekind of ELI5.
2019-09-21T19:44:58Z amz3`: the above is somekind of ELI5 computers.
2019-09-21T19:45:35Z amz3`: emma: API is a generic term to say an ensemble of procedures
2019-09-21T19:47:15Z amz3`: emma: another thing, with say, R5RS or R7RS-small even large, You Can Do a Lot (tm), that being said with Foreign Function Interface (FFI) into some other system you are limited by what the Scheme offers. FFI allows to call libraries written (mostly in C) in scheme and since there is a lot of C libraries you can do whatever you want.
2019-09-21T19:48:00Z amz3`: I woke up to say silly... prolly not that.
2019-09-21T19:48:20Z emma: im not sure what you are saying
2019-09-21T19:49:25Z amz3`: emma: ask more questions :)
2019-09-21T19:50:50Z emma: sure what do you know about this FFI. Tell me when you would use that. How does it relate to this concept of a library.
2019-09-21T19:50:58Z emma: also I thought API is different than a library.
2019-09-21T19:51:26Z emma: I think of an API as being like a set of commands that let you interact with a thing outside of your program.
2019-09-21T19:52:31Z amz3`: API is a generic term in programming, it means Application Programming Interface. Personnally, I avoid to say API.
2019-09-21T19:53:38Z amz3`: a library in scheme has concrete representation in terms of scheme expressions, it has 4 parts: 1) the name of the library e.g. (scheme hash-table)
2019-09-21T19:53:53Z amz3`: 2) it has a list of what procedure or syntax objects it exports
2019-09-21T19:54:14Z amz3`: 3) it has a list of 'import' things that are defined and exported by other libraries (like this one)
2019-09-21T19:54:38Z amz3`: 4) the body of the library (wrapped in 'begin' form in r7rs) will host the procedures and constants of the library
2019-09-21T19:55:40Z amz3`: also I thought API is different than a library > what a scheme library exports can be called an API -- for doing something. like (scheme hash-table) expose an API to work with hash-tables
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2019-09-21T19:57:19Z amz3`: ... that let you interact with a thing outside of your program. > it is not always outside the program (usually we talk in terms of processus or process), so API are not necessarly a way to interact from outside the processus BUT they can like a network API will reach another host.
2019-09-21T19:57:55Z amz3`: outside scheme != outside program != outside host
2019-09-21T19:57:59Z amz3`: mostly
2019-09-21T19:59:35Z amz3`: emma: I use FFI when there is an existing library written in C programming language that I want to use in my Scheme project, like libarchive is written in C, in its compiled form you call its shared library from Scheme. That is the purpose of FFI. In this context Foreign means Foreign to Scheme programming language.
2019-09-21T20:00:51Z amz3`: FFI is a generic term used in many programming language, if it has scheme-only it would be better understood as "Not-Scheme Function Interface"
2019-09-21T20:03:01Z emma: so it's like an API for c libraries?
2019-09-21T20:03:37Z aeth: C libraries have a standard API. A lot of C++ libraries can also have a C-style API if they put in some work and extern C
2019-09-21T20:03:56Z aeth: Nearly every programming language has to be able to talk to this kind of API, if just for the OS/graphics/networking/etc.
2019-09-21T20:04:24Z aeth: The exception being if the language actually builds in all of that at the implementation level (few languages if any bundle in an OpenGL API)
2019-09-21T20:04:46Z amz3`: emma: yes, it is somekind of translation layer between the c API to make them Scheme API
2019-09-21T20:05:12Z amz3`: aeth: except loko x)
2019-09-21T20:05:56Z aeth: For a CFFI, you need to be able to say that this is an "int foobar(foo f, bar b)" function that you want to call. You also have to describe the layout of structs.
2019-09-21T20:06:06Z aeth: And you need some way to deal with pointers, of course.
2019-09-21T20:06:15Z amz3`: emma: what is you background in computers and programming?
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2019-09-21T20:14:42Z amz3`: emma: none might be an answer.
2019-09-21T20:19:24Z emma: amz3`: yeah not much at all
2019-09-21T20:19:58Z emma: I have tried to teach myself some programming. I have written a couple little programs in scheme but not what you would call 'software'. I have also written some small programs in python.
2019-09-21T20:20:11Z emma: i have solved some problems in SICP
2019-09-21T20:20:28Z emma: when I say scheme I mean racket.
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2019-09-21T20:46:51Z aeth: I would recommend writing some simple programs in C, even though you should probably never use C for actual programs, just so you can see how the C API that languages use to talk with the OS and low level libraries works.
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2019-09-21T20:47:28Z aeth: I would also recommend installing valgrind and running every program you write through valgrind, which will catch all of the memory errors that you will write. This will also help elaborate on why I said "you should probably never use C for actual programs".
2019-09-21T20:47:37Z aeth: s/every program/every C program/
2019-09-21T20:49:58Z aeth: Traditional C and traditional Scheme represent opposite ends of a programming spectrum, although in practice things are in the middle these days in every language. Languages like Schemes have some lowish-level things available (e.g. byte arrays) and languages like C (not C itself, that is barely updated, but definitely C++) often have Scheme-like higher order functions these days.
2019-09-21T20:50:24Z Riastradh: C has higher-order functions and has had them for a very long time.
2019-09-21T20:50:25Z aeth: e.g. C++ now has a std::transform_reduce() that is probably more familiar to a Lisper than to a C programmer. https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/algorithm/transform_reduce
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2019-09-21T20:51:34Z aeth: Riastradh: What I meant is that C doesn't have a functional section of its standard library where you are passing in first class(ish) functions, often in lambda form. I don't think functions are first class in C++ yet, but they do have the rest.
2019-09-21T20:52:58Z Riastradh: C++ has had lambda notation for years.  What's `first-class' that C and C++ don't have?
2019-09-21T20:54:04Z aeth: Riastradh: "these days" being C++11 and C++17, yes, although most people didn't have access to C++11 in 2011, so it's more recent than you think, afaik.
2019-09-21T20:54:28Z aeth: Riastradh: My point is that most languages grow toward "the middle" in the Scheme vs. C spectrum.
2019-09-21T20:55:12Z edgar-rft: Riastradh: in Lisp source code is notated as lists and therefore is a first-class object
2019-09-21T20:56:25Z aeth: Riastradh: as for first class, afaik, functions in C/C++ used in this way are pointers (although C++ has function-callable objects, iirc), which can reasonably approximate what you'd get with first class functions, with the right APIs
2019-09-21T20:56:32Z aeth: I am not an expert in that language family, though
2019-09-21T20:56:36Z Riastradh: edgar-rft: Was aeth talking about a standard representation of source code in C/C++?
2019-09-21T20:57:24Z edgar-rft: Riastradh: your question was "What's `first-class' that C and C++ don't have?"
2019-09-21T20:57:49Z aeth: edgar-rft: a better answer is first-class-hyphenated names!
2019-09-21T20:57:57Z Riastradh: Sorry, in context I was talking about functions and responding to aeth's `I don't think functions are first class in C++ yet'.
2019-09-21T20:58:47Z aeth: Riastradh: afaik, in C++ you can use a function in an API in two ways: an anonymous function lambda or a named top-level function. Nothing like CL's flet or Scheme's letrec
2019-09-21T20:59:10Z aeth: And C++ also lets you use () in weird ways to make funcallable objects, but I don't think they can be used in higher order functions
2019-09-21T20:59:44Z aeth: But I am far from an expert in C++. It's a full time job to do anything but scratch the surface in a language like that
2019-09-21T21:00:00Z aeth: That is, I guess, one advantage C has over C++
2019-09-21T21:00:20Z Riastradh: aeth: Sure, you can't write (flet ...) in C++ like you can in Common Lisp, but what's the _substantive_ distinction there?
2019-09-21T21:00:40Z Riastradh: Can't write (defun ...) in C++ either but I don't think you'd claim C++ lacks function definitions.
2019-09-21T21:00:56Z aeth: Riastradh: My point was that the distinction is quickly being erased with each every subsequent version of C++, first with C++11 and now with C++17 adding more built-in, parallelizable higher order functions.
2019-09-21T21:01:29Z aeth: Riastradh: so I think you're arguing against an argument I'm not making
2019-09-21T21:01:47Z aeth: If there is a distinction I can list, the C++27 committee might be interested in erasing that
2019-09-21T21:01:58Z aeth: so it's expiring knowledge anyway...
2019-09-21T21:02:31Z Riastradh: I'm responding to the sentiment you expressed that higher-order functions are new in C: `and languages like C often have Scheme-like higher order functions these days'.
2019-09-21T21:02:57Z aeth: Riastradh: my point was that there's a sort of pure Scheme (the subset used in academic classes, really, even Scheme was always more capable than that) and a sort of really low level C (which, again, is limiting C a bit, but is probably closer to what C actually is/was)
2019-09-21T21:03:23Z aeth: Riastradh: I'm sorry, I guess I wrote that sentence like a C++ program: absolutely unparsable. I said "Scheme-like higher order functions"
2019-09-21T21:03:38Z aeth: Riastradh: as in higher order functions like you would find in Scheme, such as C++'s transform_reduce()
2019-09-21T21:03:59Z Riastradh: My broader point is that there are legitimate criticisms of C and C++, but whether a language has first-class functions or not doesn't have much to do with, e.g., valgrind or memory safety.
2019-09-21T21:04:09Z Riastradh: (or, whether they're new to the language or not)
2019-09-21T21:05:00Z aeth: Riastradh: I wasn't criticising C or C++, I was saying that you should learn C as the opposite end of the programming spectrum as Scheme, even though that's not quite the case. I'm sure there are C-macro libraries to write Schemier code (or Haskellier code) in C at this point.
2019-09-21T21:05:10Z aeth: I mean, C-macros are an exercise in pain, but someone probably did it...
2019-09-21T21:05:30Z aeth: Riastradh: as in, traditionally things are low-level C <-----------------------> academic Scheme
2019-09-21T21:05:43Z aeth: So you learn these two minimal languages to get two completely different views on what programming can be
2019-09-21T21:06:29Z Riastradh: It seemed to be a criticism, since it was elaborating on `you should probably never use C for actual programs'.
2019-09-21T21:06:32Z aeth: Riastradh: And then on top of that, in practice, Scheme has stuff like byte arrays, and C++ (originally just C with classes) has higher-order functions in its standard library straight out of Lisp/Scheme and related languages.
2019-09-21T21:06:42Z aeth: Riastradh: I probably ordered the sentences wrong, then.
2019-09-21T21:06:47Z aeth: Hard to edit things on IRC
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2019-09-22T00:19:03Z jcowan: IIRC (I am no C++ user), it still doesn't have nested functions, only pointers to functions defined in the global scope.
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2019-09-22T18:03:23Z gwatt: jcowan: C++ has a lambda notation. It's about as gnarly as any other bit of C++.
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2019-09-22T18:06:14Z gwatt: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/lambda
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2019-09-22T18:18:06Z mdhughes: There's blocks in C, C++, and Objective-C. In the first two they kinda suck because memory management is impossible.
2019-09-22T18:19:32Z mdhughes: In Obj-C, they're OK, but you have to do a "weak self" dance to keep from overretaining self.
2019-09-22T18:22:38Z mdhughes: Also, http://fuckingblocksyntax.com
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2019-09-22T18:24:39Z la_zaifir: That's some ugly syntax...
2019-09-22T18:24:54Z wasamasa: looks like some badly needed typedefs are in order
2019-09-22T18:26:24Z mdhughes: In practice I always used snippets to get one set up like I needed. They're used all over UIKit and some of Foundation.
2019-09-22T18:27:25Z la_zaifir: Ew.
2019-09-22T18:28:58Z mdhughes: Nah, you get used to it, and they're very nice closures aside from syntax. Behaves like any Obj-C object, can shove them in containers, etc.
2019-09-22T18:29:02Z la_zaifir stands at the window of the functional ivory tower and fires crossbow bolts at the Objective C peasants.
2019-09-22T18:29:12Z wasamasa: if only it was an actual smalltalk
2019-09-22T18:31:05Z mdhughes: "peasants": billions of dollars of real software is built on Obj-C. Schemers are typically poor and huddled up in weird monasteries…
2019-09-22T18:34:02Z mdhughes: Actual Smalltalk failed utterly because you can't grep or use any other IDE. You think you hate Xcode? Dolphin made me borderline homicidal.
2019-09-22T18:36:28Z dto: hi wasamasa and friends.
2019-09-22T18:36:47Z wasamasa: hello
2019-09-22T18:37:11Z wasamasa: mdhughes: yeah, I wouldn't know, I've only used the gnu one so far
2019-09-22T18:38:50Z wasamasa: with emacs of course
2019-09-22T18:41:36Z aeth: I was under the impression that the point of Smalltalk was its IDEs tied to the implementation.
2019-09-22T18:42:13Z aeth: But I guess the lack of alternatives might have been an issue
2019-09-22T18:43:01Z aeth: Proper modern architecture would decouple the backend behind a library or daemon and give you some more choice, I guess.
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2019-09-22T18:49:08Z mdhughes: In practice, you paid $X,000 and got a one-system Smalltalk IDE that would be unsupported in a few years.
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2019-09-22T18:55:46Z mdhughes: Totally different tack. I got my RasPi4, and I can't get a working Scheme. Anyone else got one?
2019-09-22T18:56:53Z wasamasa: have you tried CHICKEN?
2019-09-22T18:57:21Z mdhughes: Doesn't have csi.
2019-09-22T18:57:27Z wasamasa: I've used that on the rpi2 and rpi3
2019-09-22T18:57:50Z wasamasa: compiling from source takes its sweet time, but oh well
2019-09-22T19:00:02Z mdhughes: But I live in the interpreter. Tragically chez doesn't seem to install, because that'd be ideal.
2019-09-22T19:00:20Z wasamasa: I don't :<
2019-09-22T19:00:21Z mdhughes: Oh, gauche installed!
2019-09-22T19:00:38Z mdhughes: "gosh" is a really silly interpreter name.
2019-09-22T19:00:38Z aeth: mdhughes: It wouldn't have been unsupported in a few years if everyone just paid the $X,000 though!
2019-09-22T19:01:36Z wasamasa: yeah, gauche should be nice
2019-09-22T19:01:47Z wasamasa: kawa is another portable option
2019-09-22T19:02:27Z aeth: wasamasa: isn't chicken a compile-to-C implementation? I guess that slow compilation speed is one of the major disadvantages to that approach (even though C people will say that C is fast to compile compared to C++!)
2019-09-22T19:02:31Z mdhughes: I installed the gtk & gl libs, so maybe can even make portable software with it.
2019-09-22T19:02:37Z wasamasa: aeth: yes, it is
2019-09-22T19:02:51Z wasamasa: aeth: it generates the kind of C that's slow to compile, lots of it
2019-09-22T19:03:10Z mdhughes: csi is a hideously slow tree-walker, csc is slow to compile but makes good binaries.
2019-09-22T19:03:49Z aeth: wasamasa: And in general compiling something as different as a Lisp to C basically means slower compilation times and slower binaries than direct compilation afaik. The C compiler is probably wasting a lot of time thinking it's dealing with idiomatic C.
2019-09-22T19:04:48Z aeth: It's probably less work than making a similar quality or better native compiler, but the cost of development speed is sometimes run speed (in this case, compiler run speed)
2019-09-22T19:05:18Z wasamasa: good native code generation is hairy
2019-09-22T19:06:18Z aeth: Good native code generation can happen, but if you do that approach, it's probably just for x86-64 and maybe ARM... Compiling to C gets you every platform.
2019-09-22T19:06:51Z mdhughes: That's why I was eager to have chez. It only has one speed: fast.
2019-09-22T19:06:55Z wasamasa: lol
2019-09-22T19:08:46Z amz3: :)
2019-09-22T19:09:23Z amz3: portability is nice, also maybe chicken can work with gdb to debug complicated stuff
2019-09-22T19:09:39Z wasamasa: if you understand the generated code, maybe
2019-09-22T19:09:56Z wasamasa: my debugging is pretty much just staring at the code until it hits me
2019-09-22T19:10:21Z amz3: I read about some people do that... It is said to be effective.
2019-09-22T19:10:46Z wasamasa: there are some more specialized scenarios like debugging bindings where valgrind and triggering GC come in helpful
2019-09-22T19:10:51Z amz3: sometime needlessly poking around is not helpful. Taking a step back and thinking works better.
2019-09-22T19:11:05Z mdhughes: I write a ton of stuff to logs, and then deduce where the bug is like Sherlock Holmes.
2019-09-22T19:11:41Z amz3: I discovered the value of logs two years ago, 5 years after entering being, so called, a professional dev...
2019-09-22T19:11:51Z la_zaifir: Pike's story about Ken Thompson's debugging style comes to mind: http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1941206
2019-09-22T19:12:09Z wasamasa: that's just for scheme though
2019-09-22T19:12:25Z wasamasa: with other languages it depends, in ruby I like dropping into a repl at the buggy part
2019-09-22T19:12:46Z wasamasa: which, honestly, shouldn't be hard to have in scheme
2019-09-22T19:13:43Z amz3: widk
2019-09-22T19:13:45Z amz3: idk
2019-09-22T19:15:33Z amz3: I mostly use pk
2019-09-22T19:16:32Z amz3: I even added 'pk' definition to (scheme base)
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2019-09-22T19:43:50Z ecraven: maybe a bit off-topic, but does anyone here know of a C or C++ library that can read a pdf (from file and memory) and merge two different pages (overlaying them, one above the other) again into a pdf (in memory)?
2019-09-22T19:44:01Z ecraven: pypdf can do this, but I'd prefer something I can directly access via the FFI
2019-09-22T19:45:49Z aeth: if only I finished cl-scheme earlier this year when I had the chunk of time to do so but got sick... because then you could use CLFFI to use a Scheme<->CL<->Python interface!
2019-09-22T19:46:33Z ecraven: ;)
2019-09-22T19:47:04Z ecraven: it's something on my list, I have code that correctly reads a pdf file and parses it, I just don't have the time to understand how to merge two unrelated pages at the moment ;) maybe later this year
2019-09-22T19:47:14Z wasamasa: I've used pdftk for this kind of thing
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2019-09-22T19:47:24Z ecraven: that's java, right?
2019-09-22T19:47:32Z wasamasa: well, not quite
2019-09-22T19:47:41Z ecraven: stapler (a simple python program) is what I use now, calling it via the shell
2019-09-22T19:47:42Z wasamasa: it's a weird combination of C++, java and gcj
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2019-09-22T19:48:03Z wasamasa: but yeah, you'll find the fanciest pdf stuff in java
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2019-09-22T19:48:05Z wasamasa: maybe C++
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2019-09-22T19:48:50Z wasamasa: I remember at least one C++ library that wasn't proprietary
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2019-09-22T19:49:45Z aeth: ecraven: calling a Python program via the shell via Scheme doesn't sound too bad. It's a bit like what I joked about just substitute in sh in the middle
2019-09-22T19:49:55Z aeth: It's kind of the most Unixy way to do it
2019-09-22T19:53:22Z wasamasa: ok, no, I can only find itext and that's java, too
2019-09-22T19:53:33Z mario-goulart: ecraven: related to FFI, there's http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/pyffi
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2019-09-22T19:55:23Z wasamasa: you could probably do it with poppler
2019-09-22T19:55:38Z wasamasa: the question is whether you really want that when a temporary file does just fine
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2019-09-22T19:57:59Z ecraven: wasamasa: I've looked a bit into poppler, haven't found much on how to actually modify things.. maybe I was looking at the wrong classes
2019-09-22T19:58:30Z wasamasa: it's used by pdf-tools in emacs for annotations and stuff
2019-09-22T19:59:55Z la_zaifir: There's also mupdf.
2019-09-22T20:00:35Z ecraven: isn't mupdf only for reading?
2019-09-22T20:01:32Z la_zaifir: I haven't used the lib, but mutool does drawing and editing, so I assume the library provides that functionality.
2019-09-22T20:04:15Z la_zaifir: Hmm, maybe not.  The library docs are pretty thin.
2019-09-22T20:04:15Z ecraven: thanks! I'll look into that
2019-09-22T20:04:34Z ecraven: it shouldn't even be too complex, you "just" need to append the page content stream
2019-09-22T20:06:40Z amz3: I bookmarked those:
2019-09-22T20:06:45Z amz3: https://github.com/libharu/libharu
2019-09-22T20:06:55Z amz3: https://github.com/sile-typesetter/libtexpdf
2019-09-22T20:08:02Z ecraven: libharu says it's explicitly read-only, right?
2019-09-22T20:08:13Z ecraven: but thanks for the links ;)
2019-09-22T20:08:51Z amz3: libHaru is a free, cross platform, open source library for generating PDF files. -- http://libharu.org/
2019-09-22T20:09:00Z ecraven: yes, but it cannot read existing files
2019-09-22T20:09:13Z ecraven: sorry, I remembered that wrong, it is write-only
2019-09-22T20:09:22Z amz3: ah! probably not.
2019-09-22T20:09:42Z ecraven: anyway, it seems just shelling out to stapler is the best option at the moment
2019-09-22T20:10:03Z ecraven: I have a new-found love for bytevectors, so some day, I'll just finish that native Scheme pdf library
2019-09-22T20:13:25Z wasamasa: best of luck
2019-09-22T20:14:28Z ecraven: unfortunately, it's more work than luck ;)
2019-09-22T20:14:41Z wasamasa: which reminds me that there's a C4 egg
2019-09-22T20:14:58Z ecraven: but I think I have a basic understanding, the parser seems to work ok, I just need some scaffolding to actually *do* something useful with the parsed objects
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2019-09-22T20:24:56Z amz3: Is this syntax for a better lisp? => https://i.imgur.com/d0u6ciH.png
2019-09-22T20:27:29Z wasamasa: cursed
2019-09-22T20:30:10Z mdhughes: Is this a better LISP? https://timecube.2enp.com
2019-09-22T20:36:21Z amz3: I guess you do not like memes.
2019-09-22T20:37:37Z la_zaifir: Lisp is a successful meme.
2019-09-22T20:38:24Z la_zaifir: (In the original Richard Dawkins sense.  I'm not claiming that Lisp is an image of an especially cute pile of kittens.)
2019-09-22T20:38:43Z amz3: I get it.
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2019-09-22T20:43:54Z Blukunfando: By the way, does either of those pages happen to have anything to do with Lisp?
2019-09-22T20:46:54Z jcowan read a brilliant book about (original) memes by Michael D.C. Drout, called _How Tradition Works_.
2019-09-22T20:47:31Z amz3: Blukunfando: the link i posted is about the new racket syntax I guess
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2019-09-22T20:48:26Z amz3: Blukunfando: the second is far fetched reference to "the little lost robot" by isaac asimov
2019-09-22T20:50:00Z Blukunfando: Oh, thanks.
2019-09-22T20:51:10Z jcowan: It has a good solid introduction to the subject, explaining why memes are neither vacuous nor trivial.  The second half of the book explores memetics with a practical example (Old English poetry), but even if you don't care about that, the book is damned convincing.  Memetic engineering, you might say.
2019-09-22T20:53:40Z la_zaifir: jcowan: Thanks for the title, it sounds good.
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2019-09-22T20:58:27Z la_zaifir: amz3: Yeah, I'm also curious as to what that syntax is supposed to be.
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2019-09-22T21:18:50Z Riastradh: mdhughes: MIT Scheme might run on rpi4.
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2019-09-23T02:51:25Z mdhughes: Timecube is a very successful meme about crazy people applying their system to everything even when it's nonsense. Application to LISP is for the beholder to figure out.
2019-09-23T02:52:40Z mdhughes: Sadly MIT wasn't in the prebuilt package list, but gauche seems usable. When I get around to switching to BSD, I'll see what I can rebuild.
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2019-09-23T04:58:06Z Riastradh: mdhughes: No releases yet with arm64 support anyway -- just got added recently and will presumably be in 10.2, so for now you'd have to cross-build from git.
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2019-09-23T05:00:02Z Riastradh: (./Setup.sh && ./configure --enable-cross-compiling --enable-native-code=aarch64le && make cross-host && rsync -avz . rpi4:scheme && ssh rpi4 'cd scheme && make cross-target')
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2019-09-23T19:23:44Z ecraven: hm.. I'd like to try a skribe-based alternative to org-mode syntax..
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2019-09-23T19:28:29Z amz3: great!
2019-09-23T19:28:42Z amz3: what for?
2019-09-23T19:28:48Z amz3: for what purpose?
2019-09-23T19:28:59Z ecraven: everything.. right now, playing around with reveal.js presentations, and org-mode is ... not a perfect fit
2019-09-23T19:29:11Z ecraven: org is fine for basic markup, but tex-syntax is much better for more complex things
2019-09-23T19:29:15Z Riastradh: You could use TeX...
2019-09-23T19:29:25Z amz3: the thing is that org-mode has good editor support
2019-09-23T19:29:32Z amz3: same for tex
2019-09-23T19:29:35Z ecraven: Riastradh: by which you mean the syntax or the actual program?
2019-09-23T19:29:40Z amz3: skribe it will be from scratch
2019-09-23T19:29:51Z Riastradh: I mean the actual thing.
2019-09-23T19:29:52Z ecraven: I've thought about just using TeX *syntax*, I actually quite like that
2019-09-23T19:30:43Z ecraven: hm.. I'd like to have one set of syntax for everything document-related.. presentations, articles, code documentation, even writing books..
2019-09-23T19:30:56Z ecraven: so of course, just *using* TeX seems to be the obvious solution here ;)
2019-09-23T19:31:49Z amz3: tex is not without caveat
2019-09-23T19:31:52Z amz3 hides
2019-09-23T19:32:02Z Riastradh: \usepackage{caveat}
2019-09-23T19:36:02Z gwatt: plain text files are the one true WYSIWYG
2019-09-23T19:36:14Z Riastradh: gwatt: Not with Unicode!
2019-09-23T19:36:37Z gwatt: Riastradh: also not if I have a different tabstop than you
2019-09-23T19:36:51Z Riastradh: ALL TABS ARE 8
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2019-09-23T19:47:00Z gwatt: For a while I used 3 space tabs.
2019-09-23T19:48:59Z ecraven: I still like to use 2-space tabs for lua
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2019-09-23T20:03:20Z aeth: No matter how many spaces you use on your tabs, (1) the Internet is going to mess it up by using 8 spaces to render your code, which is very unpopular and (2) you're going to mess up the formatting on certain edge cases
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2019-09-23T20:04:07Z aeth: I read more software than I download. That software always has ugly, way-too-long tabs because all of those websites choose to render it that way. I cannot configure that on most of those sites, killing the configure-to-your-preferences argument in favor of tabs.
2019-09-23T20:04:52Z aeth: (Well, okay, I don't read more software than I download. I read more source code than I download.)
2019-09-23T20:07:24Z pjb: When you read RFCs, tabs are 10.
2019-09-23T20:07:40Z aeth: tabs, clearly, should be 1.
2019-09-23T20:07:45Z gwatt: aeth: you should be able to configure your browser's tab size
2019-09-23T20:08:21Z aeth: gwatt: If it is the browser, and not the website somehow doing this. If it is the latter, then I have to use something like Greasemonkey.
2019-09-23T20:08:38Z aeth: Obviously, you can always override anything that a site does locally, within reason.
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2019-09-23T20:16:51Z gwatt: aeth: for some reason, I assumed most sites displaying code would just use a <code> or <pre> tag. Using the inspector on github and pastebin has disabused me of that notion.
2019-09-23T20:18:30Z aeth: gwatt: The canonical way to do it is not to do a <code> or a <pre>, it's to use a <pre> if it's inline like <pre> defun </pre> or, if it is a block, then to use a <pre> <code> code goes here </code> </pre>
2019-09-23T20:18:41Z aeth: gwatt: I looked this up for my work in progress markdown->html program
2019-09-23T20:19:01Z aeth: gwatt: Obviously, they can just do whatever they want, though. They can render the text in a <canvas> if they want
2019-09-23T20:19:13Z aeth: But semantic markup is useful.
2019-09-23T20:20:08Z gwatt: github uses a table with each tr being a line, and highliting done with different tds
2019-09-23T20:20:39Z gwatt: pastebin uses lists with each li being a line
2019-09-23T20:21:48Z aeth: gwatt: oh oops, I got it slightly wrong, it's <code> if it's inline like <code> define </code>
2019-09-23T20:21:54Z aeth: that makes more semantic sense anyway
2019-09-23T20:22:54Z aeth: (that's what I had, I just misremembered it)
2019-09-23T20:23:40Z aeth: gwatt: I'm guessing doing it as <pre> <code> like you're supposed to might make it hard to format things line-by-line, and do things like line selection
2019-09-23T20:24:03Z aeth: gitlab uses a bunch of <span class="foo">
2019-09-23T20:24:31Z aeth: It is within a pre and code, though!
2019-09-23T20:25:56Z aeth: Gitlab seems to tag each line with a "lang", perhaps to allow something fancy where a document can mix multiple languages in one (traditional PHP?)
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2019-09-23T20:31:41Z dTal: aw I missed a perfectly good tabs/spaces argument
2019-09-23T20:35:54Z dTal: actually Scheme is the only language I indent with spaces, as it can be automatically pretty-printed with visual alignment that's superior to strict indents
2019-09-23T20:36:53Z ecraven: I don't care what Emacs uses to indent Scheme, as I just re-indent it automatically if it doesn't match what I want to see ;)
2019-09-23T20:37:22Z dTal: sure wish I could have as nice an IDE as Emacs
2019-09-23T20:38:43Z dTal: these days I mostly format by manually typing "(pretty-print '" into a repl and pasting a block into it, then copying the result back to my text editor
2019-09-23T20:44:21Z ecraven: why can't you?
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2019-09-23T20:55:19Z dTal: I like not having carpal tunnel
2019-09-23T20:55:42Z dTal: although even now it's pretty touch and go - I reckon emacs would push me over the edge
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2019-09-23T21:03:49Z Riastradh: Is your control key in the right place, or is it to the bottom left corner?
2019-09-23T21:03:55Z Riastradh: s/to/in/1
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2019-09-23T21:08:42Z ecraven: dTal: I suggest a proper keyboard, like the kinesis advantage. it has ctrl and alt on the thumbs (also return and space)
2019-09-23T21:09:08Z ecraven: imho: yes it is expensive, yes it's worth it if you type for a living ;)
2019-09-23T21:09:23Z dTal: Thanks for the suggestion but I don't think it would fit in my Thinkpad :)
2019-09-23T21:09:46Z ecraven: an ergodox is the same, but portable ;)
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2019-09-23T21:10:00Z ecraven: or an atreus, or many others
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2019-09-23T22:52:35Z jcowan: Editors should only insert tabs as actual ^I characters if the file name matched "make" or "mk" case-blind
2019-09-23T22:52:46Z jcowan: otherwise they should be expanded to spaces as soon as they are input
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2019-09-23T23:01:03Z aeth: agreed
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2019-09-23T23:13:22Z dTal: "expanded to spaces" bah
2019-09-23T23:13:34Z dTal: as if tabs were "made of" spaces
2019-09-23T23:14:44Z dTal: how about replacing linefeeds with enough spaces to wrap 80 columns
2019-09-23T23:15:02Z dTal: all whitespace must be spaces! vive la revolucion!
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2019-09-23T23:26:51Z jcowan: It's not that tabs are made of spaces.  It's that typing the key labeled "Tab" should insert some number of spaces, just as typing the wide unlabeled key inserts just one space.
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2019-09-23T23:36:09Z dTal: why?
2019-09-23T23:37:04Z dTal: It's a character with a defined meaning, that I have a key for.
2019-09-23T23:37:52Z dTal: Making it type a bunch of some other character, that you think looks sorta similar, strikes me as being like making my '1' key type 'one' instead.
2019-09-23T23:39:22Z Riastradh: MY unpopular opinion: the line feed key should spool the paper by one line and the carriage return should return the carriage to the left.
2019-09-23T23:42:38Z aeth: dTal: my ( key doesn't type (, either
2019-09-23T23:42:49Z Riastradh: What does your ( key type?
2019-09-23T23:42:52Z aeth: ()
2019-09-23T23:42:56Z aeth: and puts me in the middle
2019-09-23T23:43:08Z aeth: Makes it easier to keep things balanced.
2019-09-23T23:43:11Z dTal: you have an unshifted paren key?
2019-09-23T23:43:19Z Riastradh: So it DOES type (!  It also does some other stuff, though.
2019-09-23T23:43:21Z Riastradh very helpful
2019-09-23T23:43:37Z Riastradh: (I bet your `)' key actually doesn't enter `)'!)
2019-09-23T23:43:43Z aeth: dTal: In Emacs iirc the raw key is C-q (, just like I use C-q TAB when I need it.
2019-09-23T23:43:53Z aeth: or anything else that might be overriden
2019-09-23T23:44:05Z aeth: newline is C-q C-j though
2019-09-23T23:44:11Z dTal: I don't know what that means, except it sounds painful
2019-09-23T23:44:37Z dTal: surely the ''raw key" is shift-(
2019-09-23T23:44:49Z aeth: Ctrl+q followed by whatever key will enter in the key itself, instead of whatever the overriden action is
2019-09-23T23:44:50Z dTal: or shift-9 I spose
2019-09-23T23:45:18Z aeth: Ctrl+q followed by shift+9 yes, but C-q ( is shorter and means the same thing :-p
2019-09-23T23:45:23Z Riastradh: dTal: If, as I suspect, aeth is talking about paredit, it turns out that you can type more or less the same sequence of characters you would have typed without paredit and get the same result.
2019-09-23T23:45:41Z Riastradh: But, you can also type less.
2019-09-23T23:46:06Z dTal: I've never liked those autobalancing systems. I always seem to have to fight it at some stage or another.
2019-09-23T23:46:43Z aeth: I don't like them outside of Lisp. My first encounter with one was in an IDE, where it would balance () and [] etc.
2019-09-23T23:46:47Z aeth: But the main thing was fighting muscle memory
2019-09-23T23:46:51Z Riastradh: Fighting it is the only circumstance in which one would have to type, e.g., `C-q (' as aeth mentioned.
2019-09-23T23:46:53Z aeth: paredit ) takes you to the end of the )
2019-09-23T23:46:58Z aeth: so () in paredit changes nothing
2019-09-23T23:47:03Z aeth: you still get ()
2019-09-23T23:47:10Z aeth: () in that IDE probably did something stupid and made me hate it
2019-09-23T23:47:10Z Riastradh: And that's why paredit is designed to let you type the same thing as you would have typed before.
2019-09-23T23:47:30Z dTal: Usually something like, I'll want to wrap an existing thing, but when I type the open paren it immediately closes it
2019-09-23T23:47:42Z dTal: and now I have to delete the close paren and put it in its proper place
2019-09-23T23:47:57Z Riastradh: That way, you can start by typing what you would have typed anyway, and slowly start to drop some keypresses.
2019-09-23T23:48:10Z dTal: often it won't even let me type the close paren because it thinks everything's balanced
2019-09-23T23:48:12Z Riastradh: dTal: That's why M-( does that in one swell foop in paredit.
2019-09-23T23:48:22Z aeth: dTal: in paredit you'd do ( and then C-right arrow to bring it in
2019-09-23T23:48:40Z aeth: or I guess M-( (M is alt) but it's not any easier to type
2019-09-23T23:48:42Z dTal: I would very much like a structured lisp editor
2019-09-23T23:48:52Z dTal: I can certainly see the value in it
2019-09-23T23:49:12Z Riastradh: Paredit was inspired by Interlisp SEdit.
2019-09-23T23:51:00Z Riastradh: Designed to reasonably imitate a structure editor, not just be `smart' about inserting parens where it thinks you want them balanced.
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2019-09-24T04:07:09Z mdhughes: I like that tabs are 8 spaces, because it forces me to break up deep nesting into smaller functions. All the advanced editor stuff's just in the way of thinking before typing.
2019-09-24T04:08:13Z mdhughes: jcowan probably has the right idea, using ex. I like more visual context, so Vim or BBEdit or Atom (only Atomy thing I use is the function list).
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2019-09-24T04:58:55Z aeth: mdhughes: the thing though, is, that my variable names are long, so I hate deep indentation
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2019-09-24T05:01:03Z lockywolf__: Does r7rs have built-in filter and accumulate operations?
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2019-09-24T05:05:47Z lockywolf__: I did find (map), but not (filter) and (accumulate).
2019-09-24T05:06:15Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: No.  filter and fold are in SRFI 1, vector-map and vector-fold are in SRFI 43, etc...
2019-09-24T05:06:42Z lockywolf__: Ok.
2019-09-24T05:06:47Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, thank you
2019-09-24T05:07:27Z la_zaifir: lockywolf__: yw.  SRFI 1 is pretty ubiquitous, so I sometimes forget they aren't in the core language.
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2019-09-24T05:15:29Z lockywolf__: Ahh, but it's in r7rs-large.
2019-09-24T05:15:42Z lockywolf__: or, rather, in r7rs-red
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2019-09-24T05:30:36Z la_zaifir: Right, (scheme list).  That'll be nice.
2019-09-24T05:30:45Z lockywolf__: What does (values) without arguments do?
2019-09-24T05:31:28Z la_zaifir: Isn't it unspecified?
2019-09-24T05:31:43Z lockywolf__: No idea. I have it in legacy code.
2019-09-24T05:31:43Z la_zaifir: R7 only defines the (values obj ...) form.
2019-09-24T05:32:00Z lockywolf__: That's what I have in front of my eyes at the moment.
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2019-09-24T05:32:53Z la_zaifir: CHICKEN 5: (display (values))  ; prints #<unspecified>
2019-09-24T05:33:27Z lockywolf__: hm....
2019-09-24T05:33:59Z la_zaifir: Guile raises an error.
2019-09-24T05:35:03Z lockywolf__: apparently I can replace (values) with #t in this code, and it still works.
2019-09-24T05:35:43Z lockywolf__: But isn't it quietly trying to take over the world behind he scenes?..
2019-09-24T05:37:18Z la_zaifir: A Lisp programmer knows the value of everything, except (values), I guess.
2019-09-24T05:40:26Z lockywolf__: hm......
2019-09-24T05:40:46Z lockywolf__: Can I accumulate on (and)?
2019-09-24T05:41:11Z lockywolf__: and is a special form, not a function...
2019-09-24T05:42:33Z lockywolf__: I mean, I can replace it with (lambda (x y) (and x y))
2019-09-24T05:42:47Z la_zaifir: Right.  You mean something like, if you could write it, (fold and #t lis) ?
2019-09-24T05:42:48Z lockywolf__: But this looks so un-schemy.
2019-09-24T05:43:06Z lockywolf__: la_zaifir, yes, that's what I want
2019-09-24T05:43:42Z la_zaifir: It's completely acceptable.
2019-09-24T05:43:48Z lockywolf__: (Shall I say "honest" instead of "un-schemy"?)
2019-09-24T05:44:10Z la_zaifir: Unschemely is the preferred nomenclature, IIRC.
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2019-09-24T05:44:51Z la_zaifir: and is weird in Scheme, since it's a control flow construct rather than just the boolean operator we know and love.
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2019-09-24T05:49:51Z lockywolf__: In solving SICP I spend way more time fighting with the development system that actually solving puzzles :).
2019-09-24T05:50:10Z lockywolf__: Well, maybe not "way more". About the same time.
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2019-09-24T07:52:10Z mdhughes: Oh, what is going on in #chicken? I can't rejoin now that I rebooted.
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2019-09-24T08:32:53Z amz3: #chicken: Cannot join channel (+i) - you must be invited
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2019-09-24T09:10:22Z mdhughes: I know someone was complaining about seeing join/leave messages, as if they don't know how to filter in their IRC client.
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2019-09-24T09:12:19Z mario-goulart: mdhughes: that person was me.
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2019-09-24T09:13:06Z mdhughes: OK. And did you read the man page for your client?
2019-09-24T09:14:03Z mario-goulart: I know how to do that, but I don't think it's healthy to have join/leave messages printed literally at every five minutes for many days.
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2019-09-24T09:14:43Z mario-goulart: Regarding #chicken being invite only that's definitely a mistake.
2019-09-24T09:15:34Z mdhughes: People join and leave all the time. IRC isn't a persistent service. So you mute those. It's default in LimeChat, but I recall I had to set it up in Adium or a million years ago in ircii.
2019-09-24T09:17:40Z mario-goulart: There's a difference between people joining and leaving all the time and a single person joining and leaving every five minutes for days.
2019-09-24T09:19:38Z mario-goulart: All I did was to send the person a message suggesting them to fix their thing. Quoting what I wrote "it would be nice if you fixed whatever is making you go offline/online".
2019-09-24T09:21:41Z mario-goulart: In my view, that's considerably more polite than your approach at dealing with people, which has been many times remarked as unnecessarily harsh.
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2019-09-24T09:29:30Z mario-goulart: The issue with #chicken should be solved now.
2019-09-24T09:31:31Z amz3: yes
2019-09-24T09:37:16Z mdhughes: Which is weird, because my approach to people is light sarcasm instead of directly attacking anything they do, which seems to be the approved behavior on IRC.
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2019-09-24T09:46:12Z amz3: anyway, I released a small http server to query http://conceptnet.io you can find the binaries at https://github.com/amirouche/easy-conceptnet/
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2019-09-24T09:47:09Z amz3: it is written in chez scheme, and rely on SRFI 167 and 168. You can find the source at https://git.io/JesN9
2019-09-24T09:47:56Z amz3: the database can be rebuilt from conceptnet release (https://github.com/commonsense/conceptnet5/wiki/Downloads) it takes around 1 hour.
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2019-09-24T12:47:16Z jcowan: SRFI 1 was almost the first thing voted into R7RS-large.  We had to replace SRFI 43 with SRFI 133 to keep it compatible with the versions of vector-map and vector-for-each defined in R7RS-small
2019-09-24T12:48:26Z jcowan: As for (values), it does just what it says on the tin: it returns no values to its continuation, which had better (on pain of undefined behavior) be one that doesn't expect any values.  So (+ 1 (values)) is an error, but (begin (values) 1) is fine, if a bit pointless.
2019-09-24T12:48:58Z jcowan: The main application for returning zero values is in a procedure which can return any number of values.  Such procedures are rare, but they are valid Scheme.
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2019-09-24T17:28:43Z dto: shmorp shmorp shmorp
2019-09-24T17:28:54Z dto: good morning schemers.
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2019-09-24T17:43:27Z wasamasa: what's shmorp?
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2019-09-24T17:56:38Z dto: hi wasamasa
2019-09-24T17:56:46Z wasamasa: hello
2019-09-24T17:56:46Z dto: it's my creature sound.
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2019-09-24T19:28:32Z dto: another micro update on my hybrid Emacs Lisp / S7-Scheme audio thinger. top right is the spreadsheet with definitions for a chain of synth classes and objects. just to the left of that is the Scheme procedure that MOSAIC-SCHEME-FROM-SHEET spits out. Then i have nice thingies for displaying the progress when you are waiting for a bunch of files. and then i can load the resulting loop files into Ecasound via its emacs lisp
2019-09-24T19:28:32Z dto: support https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/lrUQGbNw/Screenshot%20from%202019-09-24%2013-43-31.png
2019-09-24T19:28:41Z dto: how are you wasamasa ?
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2019-09-24T19:43:03Z wasamasa: not too bad
2019-09-24T19:43:17Z wasamasa: things aren't hectic yet, that might change in a week or so
2019-09-24T19:43:41Z amz3: query dto seems like wasamsa is in good mood, ask them to beta test your app ;)
2019-09-24T19:43:44Z amz3: oops!
2019-09-24T19:43:54Z dto: hehe
2019-09-24T19:43:59Z dto: wasamasa: oh? what's big coming up?
2019-09-24T19:44:03Z dto: thesis stuff?
2019-09-24T19:44:23Z wasamasa: I've signed up for my first certification
2019-09-24T19:45:25Z dto: like an industry thing? Microsoft?
2019-09-24T19:45:36Z wasamasa: a security thing, OSCP
2019-09-24T19:45:51Z wasamasa: they recommend practicing an hour or two every day, so that will eat up most of my free time
2019-09-24T19:45:51Z dto: amz3 wasamasa yeah if any of y'all want to mess around with SchemeMosaic let me know.
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2019-09-24T19:51:21Z dto: i found out Snd can render waveforms to nice .eps files and so i'm writing a thing to display them in Emacs. also my looper is working, so i'm going to hook that UI up to the looper
2019-09-24T19:51:31Z dto: that's cool wasamasa i wish u the best in your studies :)
2019-09-24T19:51:50Z wasamasa: thanks
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2019-09-24T20:17:55Z jcowan: ISTR that there is some Scheme that scrambles up char->integer and integer->char to force you not to depend on ASCII, and provides something like char->ascii if you actually need that.  Does that ring any bells with anyone?
2019-09-24T20:19:23Z justinethier: ecraven - apologies for not writing you back sooner, but thanks for the latest run of your benchmarks! I know its a pain to set everything up and its very much appreciated :)
2019-09-24T20:22:38Z gwatt: jcowan: are you asking if a scheme's char->integer will return numbers larger than 255 for non-ascii ?
2019-09-24T20:23:40Z ecraven: jcowan: mit scheme used to do strange things, due to bucky bits, but not any longer, I think
2019-09-24T20:24:13Z ecraven: or maybe it still does... (char->integer #\c-m) -> 4194413
2019-09-24T20:24:24Z ecraven: but it doesn't actually scramble things
2019-09-24T20:24:25Z jcowan: no, I'm asking if there's one for which 'a' maps to 32 and 'b' to 47 and so on, completely non-ASCII (and non-EBCDIC)
2019-09-24T20:24:34Z gwatt: ah, gotcha
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2019-09-24T20:46:29Z jcowan: When thinking about how to identify character encodings in XML files a long while back, I came up with the encoding BSCII, which is the same as ASCII except that A and a are interchanged with B and b.  The trouble, then, is that "ASCII" in ASCII and "BSCII" in BSCII are encoded with the same bytes, and you can't tell which one you have.
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2019-09-24T20:47:00Z jcowan: Fortunately, no such encoding actually exists.
2019-09-24T20:47:50Z jcowan: The results are here: http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2005/07/hello-i-am-xml-encoding-sniffer.html
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2019-09-24T21:27:33Z Riastradh: jcowan: Scheme48
2019-09-24T21:27:59Z Riastradh: (but if I recall correctly, ascii->char is actually defined on [0,256) rather than [0,128), so...)
2019-09-24T21:28:11Z jcowan nods.
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2019-09-24T21:41:39Z jcowan: Riastradh: http://s48.org/1.7/manual/manual-Z-H-7.html says that integer->char and char->integer use Unicode scalar values (same as codepoints modulo surrogates)
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2019-09-24T22:50:03Z Riastradh: jcowan: I'm talking about Scheme48 <1.0.
2019-09-24T22:50:58Z Riastradh: I don't remember anything about how Scheme48 >=1.0 deals with Unicode except that I concluded a decade ago that it was a hopeless mess.
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2019-09-24T23:16:04Z aeth: So that means neither UTF-8 nor UTF-32, then.
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2019-09-24T23:42:34Z noway96: is there a way to enforce that my parameter is a list of characters?
2019-09-24T23:42:49Z noway96: in sml I could just declare it as such
2019-09-24T23:43:06Z noway96: in Java and C I explicitly define the type
2019-09-24T23:43:13Z noway96: declare*
2019-09-24T23:43:33Z noway96: how do I do so in scheme? or is it not possible?
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2019-09-25T00:16:54Z aeth: (afaik) lists have no metadata, they are just cons pairs with a car and a cdr, so to enforce a list of characters, you would need to walk through the entire list.
2019-09-25T00:21:32Z aeth: If you absolutely need to work with lists of just characters, the easiest way to do so would probably be to take in a string, convert that to a list, process that list, and then convert back to a string, although it probably isn't that fast
2019-09-25T00:27:03Z Riastradh: noway96 left.
2019-09-25T00:27:20Z Riastradh: aeth: Neither UTF-8 nor UTF-32?
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2019-09-25T00:47:34Z aeth: Riastradh: not something known, simple, and standard.
2019-09-25T00:47:47Z aeth: Riastradh: But, really, I don't want to get in yet another unicode-on-IRC argument so I won't answer beyond that.
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2019-09-25T01:58:26Z mdhughes: Non-typed language practice is to just document what you take, and error if you get something invalid.
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2019-09-25T05:56:01Z pjb: mdhughes: we can also add, that instead of restricting the type of parameters, we can extend the functions to accept wider types. For example, integers in the list could be converted to characters.  a string or a vector instead of a list could be processed as well as a list of characters, etc.
2019-09-25T06:03:29Z mdhughes: pjb: Right, Postel's Law: "Be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you send." Applies just as much to API design as networking.
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2019-09-25T06:18:46Z la_zaifir: Then again, that way lies Perl.
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2019-09-25T06:21:03Z la_zaifir: "This function squares numeric arguments, but if the caller passes a string, well, they must want the square of the string considered as a number.  Or the square of the length of the string.  Or something, c'mon, it's obvious."
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2019-09-25T07:15:17Z mdhughes: Documentation and unit tests make up for a lot of BDSM typing nonsense.
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2019-09-25T07:50:32Z la_zaifir: Ouch, such contempt.
2019-09-25T07:51:13Z la_zaifir: Test are good, but proofs are better, and proven properties of dynamically-typed languages is a bit of a pain.
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2019-09-25T07:51:41Z la_zaifir: s/proven/proving/
2019-09-25T07:51:50Z rk4: hey now, i like my compile time typing during. then in the weekend i get up to this super liberal anything flies runtime type checking.
2019-09-25T07:52:01Z rk4: s/during/during the week/
2019-09-25T07:53:15Z la_zaifir: Party Dynamically™
2019-09-25T07:55:13Z la_zaifir: (Of course, I meant "proving properties of programs in dynamically typed language..." above.)
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2019-09-25T08:27:01Z mdhughes: "BDSM typing" isn't super contempt, just what statically typed langs like Pascal and C++ are called. You can't prove any complex program to be true, especially ones that interact with files or users, so don't worry about it.
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2019-09-25T09:25:19Z ecraven: wow, life was definitely simpler without utf-8... playing around with a web framework, now every parameter value should be a bytevector, because it could come from a form upload, which could contain bytevector data that cannot be converted to a utf-8 string losslessly
2019-09-25T09:25:25Z ecraven: (as in, ascii-only-life)
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2019-09-25T10:13:51Z weinholt: ecraven, filenames are not guaranteed to be representable as utf-8 either, so they should be bytevectors, but bytevectors are not always valid filenames; we basically live in an illusion and it's a wonder anything works at all
2019-09-25T10:14:39Z ecraven: weinholt: it seems so
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2019-09-25T10:19:49Z rain2: mdhughes: postels law is bad though
2019-09-25T10:20:14Z rain2: you should only accept and produce well formed documents
2019-09-25T10:20:17Z mdhughes: John Postel has a posse.
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2019-09-25T13:44:40Z Riastradh: `you can't prove every program correct, so why bother even trying to let the compiler help you prove anything about them?'
2019-09-25T13:45:19Z pjb: Not every, but some. You can prove some programs correct, and you can let a compiler prove some of them correct (if you provide a specification too).
2019-09-25T13:46:34Z pjb: That said, most program proof is very conditionnal (on the correctness of all the dependencies), so it mostly doesn't bring anything, for the cost…
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2019-09-25T14:15:01Z jcowan: You can't prove programs correct in any realistic sense.  You can only prove that they conform to a formal spec which itself can only be checked informally for correctness (doing what is wanted), and which is usually harder to understand than the program itself.  Only low-Kolmogorov-complexity programs can be usefully shown to conform to a spec.
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2019-09-25T14:40:41Z Riastradh: I guess there's no intermediate small theorems that would ever be worthwhile to prove in the building blocks of large programs, huh?
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2019-09-25T14:48:12Z pjb: Riastradh: studing the RAX bug is telling.
2019-09-25T14:49:07Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZK0tW8EhQ
2019-09-25T14:49:30Z pjb: The program had been proven.  But programmers still circumvented the restrictions and broke it.
2019-09-25T14:50:28Z pjb: http://spinroot.com/spin/Doc/rax.pdf
2019-09-25T14:52:03Z pjb: So, yes, probably it helps to prove stuff.  But it shouldn't make you expect the program to work anyways.  In all cases, proven or not, you need to be able to handle errors and other critical situations at run-time.  You need to encompass dynamic environments, and take advantage of them.
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2019-09-25T15:21:28Z Riastradh: @!&# cloudflare captcha
2019-09-25T15:22:53Z Riastradh: pjb: Don't think anyone has claimed that `proving a program correct' is the be-all-end-all of software engineering.
2019-09-25T15:23:11Z Riastradh: If you find a strawman who has, feel free to burn that strawman down, but take it somewhere else so the smoke fumes don't get to me.
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2019-09-25T15:25:39Z Riastradh: On the other hand, I did see someone who I think is not a strawman say `You can't prove any complex program to be true, especially ones that interact with files or users, so don't worry about [BDSM typing nonsense].'
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2019-09-25T15:44:20Z mdhughes: I've found a handful of actual bugs by using BDSM, er, "strong typing" compilers in the last 40 years. I've lost months or years of my life to waiting for compiles. If I'd spent half that time writing more tests and the other half paying attention to girlfriends, I'd have better programs and be happier.
2019-09-25T15:47:40Z la_zaifir: [... reads scrollback]  All of this commentary is so useful.  Clearly, it's much more valuable than anything Dijkstra, Wadler, Bird, Hutton, de Moore, et al have to say about proving or calculating programs.
2019-09-25T15:48:00Z mdhughes: Turns out I never put pig value objects in airport collections and call fly() on them. Sometimes, very very rarely, I've used an int where I meant a string, or such, and tests calling those will crash out.
2019-09-25T15:49:10Z mdhughes: OK, and I can namecheck Kent Beck, Bob Martin, Dave Thomas, Andy Hunt, Fred Brooks, and a bunch of others who write production code and have to get it right.
2019-09-25T15:51:13Z mdhughes: But of those, I've only met Kent and Uncle Bob. I try to do the things they showed me, and it's made some reliable software.
2019-09-25T15:51:53Z pjb: Well, you still need to choose your language wisely. Because "abc"+1 is valid in C…
2019-09-25T15:52:31Z mdhughes: And you're doing something useful with that, so it can be tested, right?
2019-09-25T15:53:01Z rain2: I don't buy the argument that static types are not a benefit
2019-09-25T15:53:15Z la_zaifir: You can't rely on unit tests to show something correct.
2019-09-25T15:53:24Z pjb: rain2: not all static types are good. C static types are bad.
2019-09-25T15:54:01Z mdhughes: Right, you can't prove anything *correct*. You can prove that it's incorrect, though. And that it handles at least some of the edge cases you think to fire thru it.
2019-09-25T15:54:31Z rain2: you can exhaustively test some programs
2019-09-25T15:54:33Z la_zaifir: Do you know what a proof is?
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2019-09-25T15:56:21Z la_zaifir: c.f. Hutton's "Calculating Correct Compilers" for a real, constructive use of proof and program calculation to generate a correct program from a specification.
2019-09-25T15:57:26Z mdhughes: la_zaifir: Yes, I've read Knuth, Dijkstra, etc. Despite disagreeing with many of both of their classroom-development-only views, actual algorithms are useful.
2019-09-25T15:58:19Z rain2: la_zaifir: I just saw his new paper "CCC 2"
2019-09-25T15:58:21Z rain2: have you read it?
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2019-09-25T15:58:41Z Riastradh: If you're ideologically opposed to the idea of proving theorems, you might not make effective use of tools to assist with proving theorems...
2019-09-25T15:58:55Z la_zaifir: rain2: No, I haven't seen it yet, but will definitely look for it. Thanks!
2019-09-25T15:59:04Z rain2: http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/ccc2.pdf
2019-09-25T15:59:15Z rain2: this time it targets register machines which is very nice
2019-09-25T15:59:38Z mdhughes: That's where I think a lot of this comes from. If you spend a lot of time in academia, you can spend time analyzing small programs. If you work for a living, you have to ship often gigantic things written by many hands and errors need to be early and recoverable.
2019-09-25T15:59:56Z rain2: the software people create at work is bad though
2019-09-25T15:59:59Z la_zaifir: Hah, the predictable appeal to the "Real World".
2019-09-25T16:00:05Z la_zaifir: Continue, this is fascinating.
2019-09-25T16:00:11Z rain2: dont be a dick
2019-09-25T16:00:50Z la_zaifir: Sorry.
2019-09-25T16:01:07Z mdhughes: So tests are how you make that work. You can't prove what cow-orker Vadim wrote, you can't even read it. But you can fire tests thru it and he has to fix it.
2019-09-25T16:01:23Z rain2: testing is a very important software engineering practice
2019-09-25T16:01:45Z Riastradh: A static type system is a very limited programming language for an automated theorem prover in a compiler.  Limited programming languages are nice because you can easily prove they will terminate with answers.  Automated theorem provers are great because you can save yourself the effort of verifying the theorem yourself.
2019-09-25T16:02:45Z Riastradh: If you treat a static type system as a barrier, then you'll see it as something that gets in your way; if you treat it as a way to program the compiler to detect classes of mistakes, then it's a tool that can save effort in development.
2019-09-25T16:02:50Z mdhughes: Hi, yeah, the real world is terrible. We live there, not in a cozy world where programs are 100 lines long, written like poetry once per season.
2019-09-25T16:03:18Z rain2: the programs in the real world should be 1/1000th of the size they are
2019-09-25T16:03:34Z Riastradh: I like how you're assuming I live in academia and work on programs that are 100 lines long.
2019-09-25T16:03:35Z rain2: software malpractice is very very common but don't let that make you think it's necessary
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2019-09-25T16:05:19Z mdhughes: No, but I'm assuming the people who came up with the idea of software proofs were in academia, because they were and are.
2019-09-25T16:06:02Z la_zaifir: Riastradh: Good analysis.  Reminds me of Niklaus Wirth's comment in "A Plea For Lean Software" to the effect that Project Oberon would have taken years longer to write without a statically-typed language.
2019-09-25T16:06:56Z la_zaifir: IIRC, the people who developed lambda calculus, Turing machines, and the first electronic computers were in academia...
2019-09-25T16:07:21Z la_zaifir: Are we writing them off too?
2019-09-25T16:08:00Z mdhughes: You can't prove even a limited language correct over the scale of a useful program. All you can do is burn a lot of CPU and say "the paths it tested all looked OK, but I can't prove the compiler is correct..."
2019-09-25T16:08:26Z mdhughes: Read up where I mentioned Dijkstra. Am I writing them off? Or am I saying they're not always right?
2019-09-25T16:09:49Z Riastradh: I guess every theorem I've ever proved is completely useless, because I can't prove every possible path in every possible program correct because the I can't prove the compiler correct.
2019-09-25T16:10:24Z Riastradh: Lemme just get on the phone with everyone who has ever analyzed an algorithm and tell them mdhughes pointed out a fundamental problem and they can all go home now.
2019-09-25T16:10:48Z rain2: mdhughes: you can prove large complex programs correct but it's very difficult and takes experts years of work
2019-09-25T16:10:50Z mdhughes: Right, because I'm the only person who's ever said you should unit test and use dynamic languages.
2019-09-25T16:10:53Z la_zaifir: Yes, in the current software situation it can be a major pain to prove a program, most compilers don't have proofs of correctness, and most languages don't have formal semantics.
2019-09-25T16:11:15Z la_zaifir: But these are failings of current practice, not the state of nature.
2019-09-25T16:11:16Z Riastradh: mdhughes: You sure seem to like strawmen, don't you?
2019-09-25T16:11:20Z mdhughes: rain2: You *cannot* prove such programs correct. We have a thing called the Halting Problem to explain exactly that.
2019-09-25T16:11:33Z Riastradh: mdhughes: You seem to be confused about what the halting problem means...
2019-09-25T16:11:37Z la_zaifir: wat
2019-09-25T16:11:50Z rain2: mdhughes: you're mixing up humans constructing a formal proof with a computer being able to automatically prove a range of problems
2019-09-25T16:12:07Z mdhughes: Where did the computer learn to test those cases?
2019-09-25T16:12:33Z rain2: I don't know what you mean about testing cases?
2019-09-25T16:13:29Z mdhughes: How do you prove your proof system is correct?
2019-09-25T16:13:32Z Riastradh: mdhughes: The halting problem is not just a device for dunking on people at cocktail parties.  It implies nothing about _any particular machine_; it just means _there exist machines_ that cannot be proven to halt or not halt in the Turing model.  There are plenty of ways to structure programs so that the answer _is_ provable.
2019-09-25T16:13:51Z rain2: you can't really prove that a proof system is correct, you have to assume that
2019-09-25T16:14:55Z la_zaifir: But if you're going down that rathole, you end up losing ... well, all of knowledge.
2019-09-25T16:15:27Z Riastradh: How can you prove the proof system you used for the mathematical model in your engineering plan for the bridge isn't wrong?  BAM!  (I call this the `Goedel theory of warfare' since it is highly effective at destroying infrastructure.)
2019-09-25T16:15:41Z mdhughes: No, you just accept that the world is imperfect, machines are made by fallible humans, programs are written by fallible stupid humans, and we test what we can and try not to burn the building down for today.
2019-09-25T16:15:56Z rain2: what are you saying no to?
2019-09-25T16:16:07Z la_zaifir: Re: the halting problem, this is one reason people are interested in dependently-typed languages in which every program must halt.
2019-09-25T16:16:18Z Riastradh: rain2: I think this is aptly described by `throwing the baby out with the bathwater' by someone who has a lot of contempt for bathwater.
2019-09-25T16:17:03Z mdhughes: People who believe otherwise, have fun with your fairy tale compilers that burn 1000% CPU to "prove" programs and then you still can't get them to work because the bug is not in the types, but in you.
2019-09-25T16:17:14Z rain2: you're confused
2019-09-25T16:17:38Z mdhughes: No more arguing with theists today. Mic drop.
2019-09-25T16:17:44Z rain2: we're not talking a compiler that proves input programs correct
2019-09-25T16:17:46Z Riastradh: What if your CPU is actually testing a different program from the one you wrote?  WHAT NOW?
2019-09-25T16:17:55Z Riastradh: (How can you prove it isn't?)
2019-09-25T16:18:02Z rain2: we're talking a compiler that has been proven to translate input programs to output target code correctly
2019-09-25T16:18:43Z rain2: The idea of a compiler that proves input programs correct is impossible due to the halting problem like you said
2019-09-25T16:18:54Z rain2: but it's also impossible because a program can't be "correct" or not without reference to a specification
2019-09-25T16:18:55Z Riastradh: rain2: SELF-OWN!
2019-09-25T16:19:50Z la_zaifir: rain2: But again, with certain assumptions about the language, as in say Agda, the compiler _can_ prove its input satisfies its type since the proof-program must halt.
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2019-09-25T16:24:29Z pjb: la_zaifir: proofs are irrelevant in the context of actual computers, given quantum entanglement: anytime, the hardware can misbehave because something occurring on the other side of the universe.
2019-09-25T16:24:51Z Riastradh: pjb: What if quantum entanglement in your CPU causes it to execute a different test program from the one you meant?  BAM!
2019-09-25T16:25:00Z pjb: Exactly.
2019-09-25T16:25:28Z la_zaifir: pjb: Well, the same problem's going to affect pencils and paper, so I can't prove anything by hand either.
2019-09-25T16:25:29Z pjb: now, it may be improbable, but since it's still possible…
2019-09-25T16:26:14Z pjb: la_zaifir: mathematical proofs can be elaborated. The problem is when you want to apply the theorems on the physical world. And computers and programs, are physical being, when you run them.
2019-09-25T16:26:24Z Riastradh: (Side note: It's not really cool to use `BDSM' as a derogatory term just because it's a kink you and I are not into; as it happens, folks seriously into BDSM tend to be much more keen about understanding consent than others, which is cool.)
2019-09-25T16:26:55Z la_zaifir: Indeed.
2019-09-25T16:27:29Z Riastradh: pjb: Watch me destroy your bridge with GOEDEL WARFARE!  You can't prove the correctness of the mathematical system you based your engineering on using its own formalisms!
2019-09-25T16:28:46Z la_zaifir: Wasn't that John Searle's favorite tactic against AI advocates?
2019-09-25T16:29:19Z la_zaifir: Maybe that was just Doug Hofstader's unfair lampoon of him.
2019-09-25T16:29:37Z pjb: Riastradh: engineering is not mathematics.  Engineers use rules of thumbs and very big tollerances.   Mathematical bridge would soon collapse by themselves.
2019-09-25T16:30:01Z la_zaifir: What's a "mathematical bridge"?
2019-09-25T16:30:03Z Riastradh: i...what
2019-09-25T16:30:10Z Riastradh: you know what, I'm going to go back to work.
2019-09-25T16:30:18Z la_zaifir: Heh.
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2019-09-25T17:34:25Z la_zaifir: Does anyone have the URL for the "which Schemes support which SRFIs" page?
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2019-09-25T17:46:11Z dmiles: a "mathematical bridge" is simular perhaps to a "circular cow"
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2019-09-25T18:17:46Z amz3: la_zaifir: I think it is https://github.com/schemedoc/implementation-metadata/
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2019-09-25T18:20:28Z la_zaifir: amz3: That's got some info, but nothing about SRFI support.  There's definitely a list out there.  Maybe it was in the r7rs-wg1 repo...
2019-09-25T18:20:42Z la_zaifir: amz3: ty, though.
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2019-09-25T18:34:15Z jcowan: la_zaifir:  If you want to just look at it, check Art's paper on the SRFI process at https://speechcode.com/growing-schemes.pdf pages 7 and 8.
2019-09-25T18:34:30Z jcowan: If you want machine-readable, ask Art.  He sent me one once, but I haven't done anything with it.
2019-09-25T18:34:52Z jcowan: I used to have it in a Google Sheet, but it's woefully out of date.
2019-09-25T18:35:01Z jcowan: ("it" = an earlier version)
2019-09-25T18:38:12Z la_zaifir: jcowan: Thanks, the table in that PDF is exactly what I was looking for.
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2019-09-25T18:51:30Z mdhughes: List of "all" languages: https://codelani.com/lists/languages.html
2019-09-25T18:52:35Z mdhughes: Scheme: 1316 users. https://codelani.com/languages/scheme.html
2019-09-25T18:52:50Z mdhughes: (I dunno where he's getting that number. Just found it amusing.)
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2019-09-25T19:21:14Z Riastradh: ...maybe by counting the number of implementations and dialects...
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2019-09-25T19:28:01Z civodul: :-)
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2019-09-25T21:41:04Z amz3: la_zaifir: I found a repo but it is emtpy: https://github.com/schemedoc/implementation-metadata/issues/1
2019-09-25T21:41:09Z amz3: except this issue
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2019-09-26T05:02:36Z [rg]: hello
2019-09-26T05:03:30Z la_zaifir: Hey [rg].
2019-09-26T05:03:56Z [rg]: I still haven't started coding scheme yet :/
2019-09-26T05:04:28Z la_zaifir: What are you waiting for?
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2019-09-26T05:05:12Z [rg]: well, I did order a new laptop
2019-09-26T05:05:32Z [rg]: but scheme being so different, I am not sure where to start
2019-09-26T05:05:56Z [rg]: I want to start using my programs to proove results
2019-09-26T05:06:22Z [rg]: since I am just barely starting to see the light in the tunnel computer science wise
2019-09-26T05:07:04Z la_zaifir: I like The Little Schemer as just a fun book to practice Scheming with.
2019-09-26T05:07:11Z la_zaifir: But YMMV.
2019-09-26T05:08:21Z la_zaifir: Maybe just install a Scheme and mess around in the REPL a bit, get comfortable.
2019-09-26T05:08:32Z [rg]: I read a page from there, was a bit weird :P
2019-09-26T05:09:15Z [rg]: hmm yeah, guess I will be at the repl for a bit
2019-09-26T05:09:27Z [rg]: are you a unix/linux user?
2019-09-26T05:09:47Z la_zaifir: My favorite not-so-positive review of that book had the line "was this written for an 8-year-old graduate student?"
2019-09-26T05:09:59Z la_zaifir: Linux or BSD, here.
2019-09-26T05:11:43Z [rg]: that's the thing
2019-09-26T05:12:00Z [rg]: I did spend the last little while learning linux and C
2019-09-26T05:12:14Z [rg]: so it'd be nice to build programs there
2019-09-26T05:12:19Z [rg]: but it will take time
2019-09-26T05:12:30Z [rg]: in scheme
2019-09-26T05:13:33Z [rg]: is hdp worthwhile?
2019-09-26T05:13:51Z [rg]: the first few chapters seem really slow
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2019-09-26T05:14:20Z la_zaifir: Not really.  Most Schemes have POSIX support, and if you know some UNIX programming in C it won't take you long to figure those out.
2019-09-26T05:14:34Z la_zaifir: You might like CHICKEN, if you're a C programmer.
2019-09-26T05:14:53Z la_zaifir: Apparently it's good, I hear.
2019-09-26T05:15:55Z la_zaifir: (HTDP, that is)
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2019-09-26T05:16:51Z [rg]: ok, thanks
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2019-09-26T06:44:08Z mdhughes: [rg] Just start writing all your junk scripts in Scheme. Or do https://adventofcode.com or https://projecteuler.net puzzles.
2019-09-26T06:47:31Z rk4: <3 the little schemer
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2019-09-26T08:42:45Z cpressey: Just to add my 2c to the debate: Proving stuff is expensive. Specs consist of many requirements, and not all requirements are equally important. So, it makes sense to triage.
2019-09-26T08:44:49Z cpressey: Type systems are a way to make a certain class of proofs less expensive. There are limits to the kinds of requirements that can be captured in a type system though.
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2019-09-26T13:16:47Z amz3: there is a specification for markdown, called commonmark and there is a c implementation available in ubuntu 19.04
2019-09-26T13:17:21Z amz3: best of all: commonmark support ```backtick code block```
2019-09-26T13:17:35Z amz3: rudybot: how do you feel about markdown and commonmark?
2019-09-26T13:17:37Z rudybot: amz3: Maybe a superset of CommonMark Markdown (its fragmentation is greatly exaggerated IMO) with index support and stuff?
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2019-09-26T15:36:58Z dto: good morning amz3 .was it you who asked about Zoltan Kodaly?
2019-09-26T15:45:26Z amz3: dto: no
2019-09-26T15:46:00Z dto: hmm. i shall have to figure out how to search my back logs.
2019-09-26T15:46:04Z dto: how are you today?
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2019-09-26T15:50:59Z amz3: I am just goofing around, far from productive to say the least.
2019-09-26T15:51:32Z dto: :)
2019-09-26T15:51:33Z dto: me2
2019-09-26T15:51:44Z amz3: I read a little about Locality Sensitive Hashing (LSH) and some stuff about skip lists
2019-09-26T15:51:53Z dto: i might sort of peck at my program today
2019-09-26T15:51:59Z dto: what's LSH about?
2019-09-26T15:52:02Z dto: in your own words?
2019-09-26T15:53:24Z amz3: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locality-sensitive_hashing)
2019-09-26T15:53:57Z amz3: dto: it is a hash that instead of minimizing colision, maximize colision (apparantly). I paraphrasing something I read.
2019-09-26T15:54:15Z amz3: my goal is to spell check against a bigger than ram dictionary, so it seems this can work
2019-09-26T15:55:01Z amz3: afaiu it puts input strings into buckets based on similarity
2019-09-26T15:56:03Z amz3: I can store the LSHashes inside OKVS and then query around the hash of a new string to see what looks like the new string inside the db
2019-09-26T15:56:24Z dto: oh that is interesting!
2019-09-26T15:56:40Z dto: i guess that makes sense if you know there will be lots of similar strings
2019-09-26T15:56:48Z dto: is it a scientific dictionary?
2019-09-26T15:57:12Z amz3: apparantly again, it like a nearest neighborhood / clustering algorithm
2019-09-26T15:57:25Z dto: right i gotcha.
2019-09-26T15:57:51Z amz3: what do you mean by scientific dicitonary?
2019-09-26T15:58:35Z amz3: It is a dictionary of anything :)
2019-09-26T15:58:36Z dto: I was just thinking that if it was larger than RAM it might be because it includes lots of biological, medical, scientific,
2019-09-26T15:58:45Z amz3: ah!
2019-09-26T15:58:47Z dto: ok so i guess it's just large
2019-09-26T15:59:00Z dto: the reason i say this is because,
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2019-09-26T15:59:18Z dto: i've read about how the number of "words in english" can vary depending on what corpora you include
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2019-09-26T15:59:55Z amz3: the thing is I don't know if the actual words or expressions I want to spell check are bigger than RAM. But the whole data (including relations between the words and expressions), is much bigger than memory.
2019-09-26T15:59:57Z dto: you said you were spell checking so i assumed it to be a dictionary of English. but this could be in error
2019-09-26T16:00:27Z dto: i need to step away from the computer for a bit, but i would love to continue this conversation if you are around in a short while.
2019-09-26T16:00:44Z amz3: it is not only common sense english words. It can be expressions like "Barack Obama" should be near "Obama" or "Barack" and even "Obma Barack"
2019-09-26T16:00:56Z dto: oo0o0h
2019-09-26T16:01:01Z amz3: or "concept car" near "concept core"
2019-09-26T16:01:12Z dto: have you heard of the Sequitur (Nevill-Manning) algorithm?
2019-09-26T16:01:12Z dto: brb
2019-09-26T16:01:16Z amz3: ok
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2019-09-26T18:56:11Z dto: amz3: i'm back!
2019-09-26T18:56:27Z amz3: hey
2019-09-26T18:57:18Z amz3: I continued my adventure, I did read a little of sequitur: I am not trying to predict the structure of strings but more like fuzzy match / fuzzy search / spell check
2019-09-26T18:57:35Z amz3: seems like what I was looking for is simhash / minhash
2019-09-26T18:59:32Z rain2: hello
2019-09-26T18:59:43Z amz3: old stuff on google scale :O
2019-09-26T19:03:51Z amz3: sequiture is interesting tho, especially since it rely on L-systems and I find those very interestin and beautiful.
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2019-09-26T19:17:27Z dto: amz3: yes! check out the Sequitur PHD thesis entitled "Inferring Sequential Structure". it's quite a treat
2019-09-26T19:17:49Z dto: i have fuzzy match stuff built on top. hang on
2019-09-26T19:18:09Z dto: https://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el/blob/master/mosaic.scm#L1241
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2019-09-26T19:19:06Z dto: amz3: what sort of contents are in your dictionary?
2019-09-26T19:19:16Z dto: you're fuzzy-matching digrams/trigrams?
2019-09-26T19:19:24Z dto: hi rain2
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2019-09-26T19:22:01Z amz3: I read part of the thesis
2019-09-26T19:22:11Z amz3: yes indeed they use sequitur for music
2019-09-26T19:22:25Z dto: yeah that part is cool!
2019-09-26T19:22:58Z amz3: dto: what scheme do you use? what is define^ also how does the function you linked return something? I am not familiar with 'do' form.
2019-09-26T19:23:01Z dto: it was kinda tricky to implement and i don't have the "oblivious reparsing" done yet, but it is surprisingly simple
2019-09-26T19:23:30Z dto: i'm using S7 Scheme, built into Snd. I made some of my own conveniencedefiner macros with ^ at the end, to paper over some little differences.
2019-09-26T19:23:43Z dto: if you look near the top of the file you'll see them
2019-09-26T19:23:49Z dto: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/s7.html
2019-09-26T19:24:55Z dto: my definer macros help me make nice docs like this. http://xelf.me/scheme-mosaic.html
2019-09-26T19:25:03Z rain2: hey
2019-09-26T19:25:17Z rain2: there was talk about scheme syntax
2019-09-26T19:25:29Z rain2: #{vector 1 2 3}
2019-09-26T19:25:33Z rain2: #{map 1 2 3}
2019-09-26T19:25:38Z rain2: #{map a 1 b 2 c 3}
2019-09-26T19:26:07Z amz3: and?
2019-09-26T19:26:13Z wasamasa: for some reason I feel reminded of elisp
2019-09-26T19:26:22Z rain2: I think it might be a OK idea
2019-09-26T19:26:40Z wasamasa: #s(hash-table size 65 test eql rehash-size 1.5 rehash-threshold 0.8125 data ())
2019-09-26T19:26:41Z rain2: maybe we could just use it for records, #{record-name field field field}
2019-09-26T19:26:51Z rain2: and use [] #() etc for vectors
2019-09-26T19:27:25Z amz3: the only good reason for that is to be able to `read` and `write` those datastructure without going through the usual association list or list... which is not a good enough reason. I think alist->hash-table is good enough.
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2019-09-26T19:28:09Z amz3: rain2: do you like that syntax?
2019-09-26T19:28:32Z rain2: that's what I'm thinking about yeah, READ and WRITE
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2019-09-26T19:28:52Z dto: amz3: the return value is on line 1253,
2019-09-26T19:29:00Z dto: the 2nd group of clauses in DO has the form
2019-09-26T19:29:10Z dto: (END-TEST [RETURN-VALUE])
2019-09-26T19:29:51Z rain2:  woudl like everything to be writable
2019-09-26T19:29:56Z rain2: even closures tbh
2019-09-26T19:30:25Z amz3: being able to pass a closure to another scheme processus is very nice, gambit does it. but writing every datastructure? why?
2019-09-26T19:31:06Z rain2: it just seems like a shame when you cannot, idon't really have a use case
2019-09-26T19:31:13Z amz3: dto: I think I will not understand 'do' today, I already tried, but I can not.
2019-09-26T19:31:26Z dto: it's kind of weird. Elisp and CL have it
2019-09-26T19:31:40Z dto: but i didn't start using it until recently
2019-09-26T19:31:54Z amz3: rain2: the good thing is in the REPL you see the data without having to "foo->alist" or "bar->list" that is all. less typing.
2019-09-26T19:32:18Z rain2: yeah!
2019-09-26T19:32:19Z dto: S7 is a deviant scheme. you can do (define foo (make-hash-table))   (set! (foo "hello") myvalue)
2019-09-26T19:32:20Z amz3: dto: I am named-let fan.
2019-09-26T19:32:37Z dto: never tried named-let. what's it all about?
2019-09-26T19:32:40Z rain2: named let is cool
2019-09-26T19:32:40Z amz3: dto: not really, it is called generalized set there is an SRFI for it
2019-09-26T19:32:53Z dto: right but being able to call a hashtable as a function
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2019-09-26T19:33:00Z dto: instead of like in cl saying (SETF (GETHASH ...
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2019-09-26T19:33:22Z amz3: dto: what does it mean to call a hash table?
2019-09-26T19:33:31Z dto: get the value
2019-09-26T19:33:50Z amz3: ah yes, I read the name invokable for that.
2019-09-26T19:33:54Z dto: i.e. if a variable with value hashtable appears as leftmost symbol
2019-09-26T19:34:05Z dto: yeah that's not typical of scheme right?
2019-09-26T19:34:09Z dto: so-called implicit indexing?
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2019-09-26T19:34:19Z wasamasa: clojure has it
2019-09-26T19:34:31Z dto: you can do it with lists too.   ((1 2 3) 0) => 1
2019-09-26T19:34:34Z amz3: dunno, I was asked to add "hooks can be invokable" in SRFI-173 so it might be somewhat common
2019-09-26T19:34:52Z dto: oh interesting.
2019-09-26T19:35:09Z amz3: dto: guile and chez (the only scheme I know) do not have that.
2019-09-26T19:35:46Z wasamasa: txr-lisp might be worth looking at for shorthand ideas
2019-09-26T19:36:15Z wasamasa: > Hashes also work as one or two argument functions, corresponding to the arguments of the gethash function.
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2019-09-26T19:36:39Z wasamasa: it tries combining the best parts of lisp-1 and lisp-2
2019-09-26T19:36:52Z amz3: rain2: also it makes reading s-expr (?) more difficult.
2019-09-26T19:37:01Z rain2: that could be a shame
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2019-09-26T19:37:37Z amz3: still, it is not R7RS-small so...
2019-09-26T19:38:13Z amz3: IIRC jcowan wrote that it is the last docket (or one of the last docket)
2019-09-26T19:39:24Z jcowan: Next to last.  The last docket is changes to lexical syntax (if any).
2019-09-26T19:40:21Z dto: anyway so it's so amazing to have a scheme embedded in a world of cool sound operators/generators. there's a classical FM violin from the 70s and more cool stuff, algorithmic composition, granular synthesis, wavetables, soundfonts, more more mroe
2019-09-26T19:40:24Z dto: more*
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2019-09-26T19:48:46Z dto: and to be able to embed scheme in elisp / generate scheme from elisp and interoperate live, is cool
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2019-09-26T21:06:52Z la_zaifir: What's the advantage of the #{vector 1 2 3} syntax over #(1 2 3) or (vector 1 2 3)?
2019-09-26T21:07:29Z la_zaifir: Also, wouldn't the #{map ...} forms need some way to specify a comparator?
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2019-09-26T21:15:41Z rain2: la_zaifir: VECTOR Is a bad example I thnk
2019-09-26T21:15:53Z rain2: #{map eq? ...}  could be used
2019-09-26T21:19:16Z la_zaifir: Well, #{map <comparator> ...} since SRFI 125 is the way things are going with hashtables, IIUC.
2019-09-26T21:20:02Z la_zaifir: But in any case, if you wanted to read/write such things, you'd need an external representations of comparators, too, I think.
2019-09-26T21:20:44Z la_zaifir: Also, map is confusing because of SRFI 146 mappings, so it should probably be #{hash-table} if anything.
2019-09-26T21:21:06Z rain2: perhaps procedures can be written
2019-09-26T21:23:44Z la_zaifir: That would be interesting.
2019-09-26T21:26:00Z rain2: https://gist.github.com/rain-1/dc738599829ed40b55f170b574628bd0
2019-09-26T21:26:32Z rain2: you could have serializable closures + an eq? hash table that- gives names to DEFINE'd procedures
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2019-09-27T14:20:04Z dwdv: Is it considered unschemey for procedures like char-numeric? to return the actual numerical value instead of a #t?
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2019-09-27T14:26:44Z gwatt: dwdv: By convention, any procedure ending in '?' returns only #t or #f.
2019-09-27T14:27:02Z DKordic: AFAIK "Maybe" is more general than "Bool".  (Just whatever) -> True; Nothing -> False?
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2019-09-27T14:30:52Z mdhughes: I'd call it char->digit-value, and return #f on non-digits.
2019-09-27T14:33:42Z DKordic: "char?numeric"?
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2019-09-27T14:59:02Z dwdv: Alright, thanks everyone.
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2019-09-27T15:31:54Z dto: I've officially been doing scheme for a month! it's my monthaversary
2019-09-27T15:32:34Z dto: i come from the CL/EL world and i'm quite comfy
2019-09-27T15:46:32Z dto: i guess it's sort of like suddenly driving a european car after using only american
2019-09-27T15:47:35Z la_zaifir: Hah, QOTD!
2019-09-27T15:47:57Z dto: :) hi la_zaifir
2019-09-27T15:48:03Z la_zaifir: Hey dto.
2019-09-27T15:48:25Z dto: how goes?
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2019-09-27T15:48:42Z la_zaifir: Not so bad.  Coffee is good.  Happy schemiversary.
2019-09-27T15:49:50Z dto: thanks :)
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2019-09-27T16:01:49Z la_zaifir: widow: Wilkommen, bienvenue, welcome.
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2019-09-27T16:54:05Z rain2: hi folks
2019-09-27T16:58:15Z jcowan: DKordic: In R7RS it's called "digit-value", and works on all Unicode decimal digits, not just European ones.
2019-09-27T16:59:40Z jcowan: la_zaifir: Im Schemearet, au Schemaret, to Schemearet!
2019-09-27T17:01:14Z la_zaifir: Hehe.  Where are your troubles now?  forgotten? ; => #t
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2019-09-27T17:37:35Z mdhughes: Which SRFI is that, jcowan?
2019-09-27T17:39:13Z jcowan: Not everything in the small language was added from a SRFI; many things were done by a ticket during the standardization process.  See r7rs.pdf section 6.6.
2019-09-27T17:40:16Z mdhughes: Ah. I need to read that all the way thru, I've been too long in Chicken-land.
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2019-09-27T17:53:27Z dwdv: Oh, sweet, didn't know about digit-value. Thanks, John!
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2019-09-27T19:18:15Z mdhughes: Every time I see call-with-current-continuation, I laugh because only a Schemer would think that was a good name.
2019-09-27T19:19:29Z la_zaifir: It's a great name.  http://call-with-current-continuation.org
2019-09-27T19:20:20Z la_zaifir: Huh, that used to be the Bones site, now it's just Felix's homepage.
2019-09-27T19:27:08Z dieggsy: bones is now http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/bones/
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2019-09-27T20:01:53Z jcowan: It's a deliberately annoying name so you won't use it directly but only as a building block.  But people used it anyway, abbreviating it to call/cc, so R7RS gave way and made that part of the standard.
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2019-09-27T20:03:28Z kjak: i think the name call/cc was part of r6rs too, wasn't it?
2019-09-27T20:04:28Z gwatt: yep
2019-09-27T20:05:42Z jcowan: s/6/7/, yes
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2019-09-27T20:09:39Z mdhughes: Yah, it's call/cc in r6rs.
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2019-09-27T21:11:37Z mjsir911: Is there any way to escape a quasiquote? I'de like to go from '(,x 1 2) -> '`(,x 1 2)
2019-09-27T21:12:57Z aeth: You can nest quasiquotes and unquotes. This is the path to madness.
2019-09-27T21:13:10Z mjsir911: It is indeed
2019-09-27T21:14:08Z mjsir911: the problem is I can only insert escaped quasiquote/unquote pairs, and I want just a bare quasiquote. In other problems, I can't figure out how to escape an unquote..
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2019-09-27T21:29:49Z amz3: mjsir911: at the end of the interpretation / compilation process quasiquote, unquote, and quote are just cons, list etc...
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2019-09-27T22:06:20Z mjsir911: thanks amz3, that's actually super helpful
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2019-09-27T23:07:07Z amz3: mjsir911: yw
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2019-09-28T10:59:45Z amz3: microbenchmark for the fun: https://hastebin.com/yedafibozi.scheme
2019-09-28T11:00:03Z amz3: gambit is much much faster than python3 that rely on C extension
2019-09-28T11:00:30Z amz3: guile3 is not bad.
2019-09-28T11:01:51Z amz3: the recursive version of levenshtein as defined in rosetta code is very slow.
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2019-09-28T12:45:22Z mdhughes: I'm starting to get the hang of Gerbil, but not being able to use [] {} for braces is maddening.
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2019-09-29T13:55:24Z mjsir911: any standard way to detect if a symbol evaluates to a macro eg 'if ?
2019-09-29T13:59:11Z LeoNerd: symbols can't "evaluate to" a macro. A macro is a set of instructions to perform at reader time
2019-09-29T13:59:30Z LeoNerd: It's a template that gets expanded by the reader, to produce different stored code
2019-09-29T13:59:42Z wasamasa: there is no such thing in the standard
2019-09-29T14:00:05Z wasamasa: maybe in a srfi, but even if you'd have to be lucky to find implementations supporting it
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2019-09-29T14:20:37Z jcowan: LeoNerd: not by the reader, but by the evaluator
2019-09-29T14:20:55Z jcowan: read doesn't know "if" from "foo"; they are both just symbol.
2019-09-29T14:20:57Z jcowan: s.
2019-09-29T14:21:20Z jcowan: But in general Scheme is not reflective, unlike CL.
2019-09-29T14:22:31Z mjsir911: alright, thanks
2019-09-29T14:24:49Z dto: Good morning schemers
2019-09-29T14:24:59Z TCZ: racketeers
2019-09-29T14:25:20Z dto: :)
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2019-09-29T14:50:43Z jcowan: Also any planners and connivers in front of us.
2019-09-29T14:50:48Z jcowan: er, among us
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2019-09-29T17:28:57Z mdhughes: I'm more of a hooligan than a planner. Gimme a brick, a bat, and a compiler, and I can wreck some things.
2019-09-29T17:41:17Z amz3: this echo my work on data (bases) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/56h2QgLXQhs
2019-09-29T17:43:14Z amz3: it says "worry about datastructure before algorithms". Also, "don't optimize before it works"
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2019-09-29T17:46:11Z la_zaifir: Don't optimize until you know you need to!
2019-09-29T17:46:27Z amz3: yes
2019-09-29T17:47:30Z amz3: is there a sorted list datastructure in r7rs / srfi?
2019-09-29T17:48:02Z la_zaifir: Hmm, not that I know of.
2019-09-29T17:48:25Z amz3: seems like no: https://srfi.schemers.org/?q=sorted
2019-09-29T17:50:12Z amz3: I think I will try to implement a skip list, stop me while you can! (or recommend a better data structure)
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2019-09-29T17:54:12Z mdhughes: Is there not a b-tree SRFI?
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2019-09-29T17:57:32Z amz3: no
2019-09-29T17:58:38Z la_zaifir: It seems like a good job for comparators.
2019-09-29T17:58:48Z la_zaifir: (A sorted data structure, that is.)
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2019-09-29T18:00:16Z mdhughes: I know red-black trees are more efficient, but I've never written one; that's probably the smartest thing to use, tho.
2019-09-29T18:00:51Z la_zaifir: SRFI 146 mappings are probably rb trees, so there's that.
2019-09-29T18:02:22Z la_zaifir: The implementations are pretty spread out atm, however--most Schemes have some random RB tree library, e.g. CHICKEN's llrb-tree.  The SRFI 146 memo hasn't spread yet.
2019-09-29T18:05:28Z Riastradh: mdhughes: Why a b-tree in particular?
2019-09-29T18:06:18Z mdhughes: Riastradh: Efficient insertion, deletion, and lists elements in order. Lowest overhead.
2019-09-29T18:06:38Z Riastradh: mdhughes: Yes, but why that instead of, say, a red/black tree or bounded-balance tree or AVL tree?
2019-09-29T18:06:44Z mdhughes: Hash tables are faster if you don't care about order.
2019-09-29T18:06:52Z Riastradh: amz3: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/skip-list.scm
2019-09-29T18:06:52Z mdhughes: Keep reading down.
2019-09-29T18:07:29Z Riastradh: I like bounded-balance trees because they can also answer the question `what is the ith element in the sequence?' or `at what position in the sequence is this key?' in O(log n) time.
2019-09-29T18:07:49Z Riastradh: (also called `weight-balanced trees')
2019-09-29T18:08:28Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme has a weight-balanced tree library; I also wrote <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/bb-tree.scm>, but the balance criterion there is slightly wrong as it was in ~every bounded-balance library from Scheme to ML to Haskell for 20 years.
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2019-09-29T18:11:04Z mdhughes: Mappings not specifying the implementation is probably best for later improvements, and limits bikeshedding.
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2019-09-29T18:12:47Z Riastradh: I think setting w=3, 1/alpha=2 might fix the balance, but I forget now what the parameter naming is; in MIT Scheme (before I changed the balance criterion to something less fiddly) the two parameters were called Delta and Gamma.
2019-09-29T18:14:48Z mdhughes: blue is a nice color for that bikeshed.
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2019-09-29T18:17:44Z mdhughes: Has anyone here done any FFI with Gerbil?
2019-09-29T18:18:40Z mdhughes: Or if there's an existing SDL integration, that'd be great. But I'd settle for any FFI examples beyond the site's.
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2019-09-29T18:32:10Z ecraven: hm.. I really need to use fold more, I keep forgetting the exact order of kons's parameters
2019-09-29T18:33:06Z amz3: Riastradh: thanks
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2019-09-29T20:15:52Z amz3: Riastradh: maybe you can englight me, what I want to do, is create a leader board of key-value pairs that are computed lazily and keep around only the top N key-value pairs. So, it would require to add items and pop lowest values.. is that a good problem for skip list?
2019-09-29T20:16:25Z amz3: (I think another advantage of skip least, compared to balanced trees, is that there worst case complexity is still good)
2019-09-29T20:16:37Z amz3: (maybe not compared to rb tree or bounded balanced trees)
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2019-09-29T20:20:17Z Riastradh: amz3: Not sure how you conclude that -- worst-case complexity for a skip list is O(n) lookup/delete/&c.; worst-case complexity for a balanced tree is O(log n).
2019-09-29T20:24:31Z Riastradh: amz3: Same with min and pop-min.
2019-09-29T20:28:06Z amz3: ok
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2019-09-29T20:31:43Z Riastradh: If all you need is insert, min, and pop-min, you can do slightly better with a binary heap (which you can also store in a contiguous array rather easily), which gives O(1) min and O(log n) insert/pop-min.
2019-09-29T20:32:22Z Riastradh: So a binary heap is a good fit for a priority queue.
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2019-09-29T23:38:45Z enderby: hi, wondering if there's a difference between classes in OO and record types in scheme
2019-09-29T23:40:15Z lavaflow: after upgrading geiser-mode, is there anything I need to do to get emacs to start using the new version?
2019-09-29T23:41:07Z lavaflow: maybe I should ask that in #emacs instead.  I'm not sure if the answer is more related to geiser or a generic emacs thing
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2019-09-29T23:46:35Z pjb: enderby: it depends on the OO system.
2019-09-29T23:51:07Z enderby: i guess record types don't have methods? so if the OO had just attribs only?
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2019-09-30T00:00:12Z aeth: enderby: OOP has quite a few contradictory definitions, with the best definitions probably being listing a bunch of criteria and saying if it meets enough of them then it's OOP
2019-09-30T00:01:07Z gwatt: enderby: it also depends on which scheme report or srfi you're looking at.
2019-09-30T00:01:14Z enderby: ok, but a main difference is def missing methods/class-specific functions?
2019-09-30T00:01:15Z enderby: oh
2019-09-30T00:01:35Z aeth: enderby: I'm guessing that they're not polymorphic
2019-09-30T00:01:43Z aeth: so, yeah, not using methods
2019-09-30T00:01:50Z enderby: gotcha
2019-09-30T00:01:57Z gwatt: I don't thing any record specification has methods. (functions with an implicit "this")
2019-09-30T00:02:12Z enderby: yeah gotcha
2019-09-30T00:02:22Z gwatt: However, R6RS records have inheritance whereas R7RS drops it.
2019-09-30T00:02:32Z enderby: haven't looked at goops
2019-09-30T00:02:42Z enderby: orly r7rs drops it, okay
2019-09-30T00:03:40Z aeth: inheritance isn't central to OOP imo
2019-09-30T00:03:54Z aeth: it's a possible tool
2019-09-30T00:03:54Z gwatt: goops is a guile specific implementation of CLOS. I don't think it really needs records to work
2019-09-30T00:04:37Z aeth: these days things are so much in favor of composition-over-inheritance that you probably see some languages with OOP but without inheritance at all, using alternative ways to accomplish the same task
2019-09-30T00:04:40Z enderby: icic, so it's sep from records
2019-09-30T00:04:58Z lavaflow: goops is pretty cool
2019-09-30T00:05:14Z lavaflow: makes me want to learn CL so I can learn clos
2019-09-30T00:07:05Z dto: lavaflow: CLOS is awesome :)
2019-09-30T00:07:31Z lavaflow: I've got a copy of the art of the metaobject protocol, but I still need to read it.
2019-09-30T00:07:40Z dto: there's a CLOS emulation for Emacs Lisp too. and a simpler mini-clos for S7 Scheme
2019-09-30T00:07:55Z dto: oh cool lavaflow i've read chunks of it and it's great
2019-09-30T00:07:57Z lavaflow: goops is based off mini-clos, right?
2019-09-30T00:08:02Z dto: also Sonya Keene's CLOS book
2019-09-30T00:08:16Z dto: i'm not sure the answer to that myself
2019-09-30T00:08:32Z daviid: lavaflow: STKlos, which itself was based on tinyclos
2019-09-30T00:08:41Z lavaflow: ah right
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2019-09-30T00:10:06Z daviid: lavaflow: gauche also  has an STKlos based implementatiob, fwiw
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2019-09-30T01:53:57Z mdhughes: Gerbil's object system treats structs (records) and classes very similarly, and methods are polymorphic dispatch for any type, "primitive", struct, or class.
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2019-09-30T02:23:04Z mdhughes: What was that Unicode string length URL from a week or two ago, anyone know?
2019-09-30T02:23:11Z mdhughes: Also the IRC logs aren't updating.
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2019-09-30T02:34:33Z evhan: mdhughes: This one? https://hsivonen.fi/string-length/
2019-09-30T02:35:18Z mdhughes: Exactly, thank you!
2019-09-30T02:35:39Z [rg]: hello
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