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2019-08-01T08:21:08Z erkin: Is there a standard procedure that does this? https://0x0.st/zfI4.txt
2019-08-01T08:21:22Z erkin: ie compare a value against a set of predicates and see if it satisfies one/all
2019-08-01T08:24:07Z ecraven: there's every and any, but they do something slightly different
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2019-08-01T08:35:57Z ggole: Negation and (contra)map are also useful operations on predicates
2019-08-01T08:36:19Z ggole: Dunno if there is a library floating around that defines them though.
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2019-08-01T08:56:28Z erkin: I suppose it's easy enough to implement myself anyway.
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2019-08-01T09:02:52Z dTal: lisp programmers should receive an electric shock every time they utter that phrase
2019-08-01T09:03:14Z ecraven: dTal: why, actually?
2019-08-01T09:03:18Z ecraven: I like the forth mentality ;D
2019-08-01T09:03:31Z ecraven: sometimes it takes *longer* to understand the library than to just write the code yourself
2019-08-01T09:03:38Z ecraven: that way lies npm's left-pad
2019-08-01T09:04:03Z dTal: no, that way lies all of technology as we know it
2019-08-01T09:04:26Z dTal: if everyone has to start from scratch, we get nowhere
2019-08-01T09:04:51Z ecraven: I'm not saying *no* libraries, but prudent use of them
2019-08-01T09:04:58Z ecraven: not like the javascript ecosystem :P
2019-08-01T09:05:01Z dTal: pretty much all the software we use is a massive, multi-decade collaborative endeavor
2019-08-01T09:05:09Z ecraven: that's why I'm excited about r7rs-large
2019-08-01T09:05:12Z erkin: Most my simple scripts contain about 30 lines of preliminary procedures I like to have but standard libraries don't carry.
2019-08-01T09:05:41Z dTal: erkin: exactly - most lisp programmers have that! that's a sign that something's broken
2019-08-01T09:05:47Z ecraven: erkin: same here, I have a (utils) library that I wish were just part of the standard library
2019-08-01T09:05:50Z erkin: The simplest one would be add1 and sub1, which is surprisingly inconsistent across Scheme implementations.
2019-08-01T09:06:24Z erkin: At least they're pretty short.
2019-08-01T09:06:51Z dTal: ecraven: funny you should mention Forth, I made exactly this argument in a HN comment yesterday in a thread about Forth
2019-08-01T09:06:57Z erkin: Haha
2019-08-01T09:07:03Z dTal: I mentioned "I, Pencil" :p
2019-08-01T09:07:24Z ecraven: dTal: I wish there were a child of Scheme, Forth and APL :D
2019-08-01T09:07:32Z dTal: me too
2019-08-01T09:08:12Z erkin: My calculator had a weird stack-based Lisp (sans sexp).
2019-08-01T09:08:20Z erkin: Called 'Reverse Polish Lisp'
2019-08-01T09:08:28Z dTal: surely that's just Forth?
2019-08-01T09:08:37Z ecraven: sounds a lot like forth, exactly
2019-08-01T09:08:37Z dTal: how did it know function arity?
2019-08-01T09:08:55Z erkin: I think it's closer to Forth than Lisp.
2019-08-01T09:09:21Z dTal: fusing scheme and forth would be fairly easy, just make the return values of top level forms go on a stack, and make n-adic functions without arguments pop n values off that stack
2019-08-01T09:09:48Z ecraven: well, I also like the syntax of forth, and that cannot be unified with Scheme
2019-08-01T09:10:31Z dTal: what syntax? :p
2019-08-01T09:10:42Z ecraven: that's the point, probably ;D
2019-08-01T09:11:00Z ecraven: don't get me wrong, I love Scheme, but Forth (and even more APL) are just so ... direct
2019-08-01T09:11:33Z dTal: I don't really see the difference between APL and numpy with funny symbols
2019-08-01T09:11:47Z ecraven: syntax :D
2019-08-01T09:12:02Z dTal: you should check out Nial
2019-08-01T09:12:35Z dTal: it's sort of Lisp+APL
2019-08-01T09:12:36Z ecraven: once you're used to it, +/ is just *much* clearer than (lambda (l) (reduce + 0 l))
2019-08-01T09:12:51Z dTal: what's this, a schemer defending syntax?!?
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2019-08-01T09:13:13Z erkin: I like J but the non-AVX version runs really slowly and my CPU doesn't support AVX.
2019-08-01T09:13:59Z ecraven: I'm really torn ;) but both Forth and APL have very *simple* syntax
2019-08-01T09:14:10Z stepnem: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/c40pmh/eforth_a_forth_in_emacs_lisp14_lines/
2019-08-01T09:15:40Z erkin: It's fascinating how the number of people who implemented Forth is greater than the number of Forth users.
2019-08-01T09:16:11Z ecraven: what I don't see is how you can use Forth for very complex stuff, like processing json or xml.. all that newfangled web stuff
2019-08-01T09:16:24Z dTal: it shows that it's easy to make and hard to use
2019-08-01T09:16:37Z ecraven: in Scheme, that's simple.. but forth (or more specifically Chuck) seems to try to discourage multiple levels of abstraction
2019-08-01T09:17:07Z ecraven: APL I just don't know well enough..
2019-08-01T09:17:13Z dTal: the idea of ditching abstraction is only appealing because of the extreme heresy of its wrongness
2019-08-01T09:17:28Z erkin: Wait
2019-08-01T09:17:31Z ecraven: dTal: well, I think there's a golden middle, there is such a thing as too much abstraction..
2019-08-01T09:17:35Z erkin: Doesn't Forth encourage abstraction?
2019-08-01T09:17:40Z ecraven: look at all the factory manager locator whatever stuff that java has
2019-08-01T09:18:01Z dTal: I'm not sure that counts as genuine abstraction
2019-08-01T09:18:03Z erkin: As in, writing layers of increasingly high-level subroutines?
2019-08-01T09:18:08Z ecraven: erkin: I've read that chuck moore designs his programs to have a nice upper-level api, but not much in between that and the lower levels
2019-08-01T09:18:16Z erkin: Ah
2019-08-01T09:18:23Z ecraven: so not built in layer upon layer of API, but just directly implement the highest-level API you want
2019-08-01T09:18:43Z erkin: I guess my Forth code was very unorthodox then.
2019-08-01T09:19:17Z erkin: The SICP style of layered program design got inadvertently hardcoded in my brain.
2019-08-01T09:19:18Z dTal: I mean, I can take an API and "abstract" it so that I have a function that returns a function that returns a function.... that returns the API function - but I haven't "abstracted" the problem any more, I've just made the solution more roundabout
2019-08-01T09:19:19Z ecraven: well, that's Chuck Moore.. unorthodox ideas
2019-08-01T09:20:04Z ecraven: I've recently had to use Mockito, which is used to mock java objects.. I thought "that's neat", but if they just passed functions around, it would be trivial to mock that by just passing in mock functions..
2019-08-01T09:20:42Z dTal: also, Java's inpenetrability is probably mostly because it doesn't support abstraction well, but its use in enterprise means they *need* abstraction, so they get it with horrible hacks
2019-08-01T09:21:57Z dTal: probably Haskell programs similarly bandy about such high level stuff, but they don't call it "factories" and so on
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2019-08-01T09:30:13Z aeth: A Java factory is down to earth and real, not some fancy math term!
2019-08-01T09:30:58Z aeth: Replace "databases" with "warehouses".
2019-08-01T09:31:04Z erkin: Yeah, who even says words like "functor"
2019-08-01T09:31:36Z aeth: sounds German to me
2019-08-01T09:35:29Z erkin: I wonder if there's a cleaner way to do this: https://0x0.st/zfIC.txt
2019-08-01T09:38:19Z aeth: And I was right. funktor is German! https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funktor
2019-08-01T09:38:28Z erkin: Funky
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2019-08-01T10:26:39Z edgar-rft: German Wikipedia says: Rudolf Carnap was *born* in Germany, but later frist moved to Austria, then 1931 to Czechia, where he used the word Funktor for the first time in 1934, then in 1941 he moved to the USA where he died in 1970.
2019-08-01T10:26:39Z edgar-rft: I have no idea if the word funktor is of Czech origin, but as a native german speaker I heard the word Funktor today for the first time in my life.
2019-08-01T10:27:05Z ecraven: I don't think it is czech, I'd say it's german
2019-08-01T10:27:38Z ecraven: probably based on greek words like "Autor" or "Rhetor"
2019-08-01T10:30:44Z mdhughes: erkin: (define (with-newline proc args) (apply proc args) (newline))
2019-08-01T10:33:22Z mdhughes: doesn't pass the port to newline, so you'll need to add a (if (port? (car args)) bit in there…
2019-08-01T10:55:27Z TCZ: funktor przecież to polskie słowo ;)
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2019-08-01T11:28:27Z lmln: TCZ: that could be right, actually. Ajdukiewicz used the word funktor as early as 1930/1931
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2019-08-01T11:34:03Z erkin: Funktör
2019-08-01T11:35:03Z erkin: mdhughes: That was the initial solution but I couldn't figure out a clean way to pass the port to newline.
2019-08-01T11:39:24Z edgar-rft: This is what a German usually understands as a Funktor: http://i2.wp.com/scienceblogs.de/mathlog/files/2012/07/25352-funktor.jpg - Warning, radio-controlled gate, keep 2 meters away
2019-08-01T11:39:25Z erkin: I guess (if (null? (cdr args)) (newline) (newline (cadr args))) works.
2019-08-01T11:39:48Z erkin: Telefunktor
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2019-08-01T11:41:21Z erkin: 'Pseudofunctor' would make a nice maths rock band name.
2019-08-01T11:41:22Z dTal: I would totally go to a Telefunktor concert and dance my butt off
2019-08-01T11:41:32Z dTal: jinx
2019-08-01T11:41:37Z erkin: Haha nice
2019-08-01T11:41:56Z erkin: 'Telefunktor' yields zero results on Google, so it's up for taking.
2019-08-01T11:44:08Z dTal: umlauts are played out but I think schwa is underused?
2019-08-01T11:44:34Z dTal: Telefunktər
2019-08-01T11:44:38Z TCZ: maybe its connected with Lwów–Warsaw school, Kotarbinski Łukasiewicz(polish notation) Lesniewski
2019-08-01T11:45:19Z erkin: I coined it through Telefunken, the radio brand.
2019-08-01T11:45:25Z edgar-rft: Intergalactic Telefunctors and Quantum Entanglement - http://syntax.wikidot.com/blog:9
2019-08-01T11:45:49Z erkin: Oh wow, that's a Googlewhack!
2019-08-01T11:45:57Z erkin: wait no, that requires two words.
2019-08-01T11:45:58Z dTal: ooh, "Intergalactic Telefunctors", that's even better
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2019-08-01T11:46:52Z erkin: 'telefunctor fascism' is a Googlewhack though.
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2019-08-01T11:48:53Z lmln: would be
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2019-08-01T13:19:00Z amz3: rudybot: what is googlewhack?
2019-08-01T13:19:07Z rudybot: amz3: lol @ that googlewhack: those links...priceless! https://www.google.com/search?q=glados+emacs
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2019-08-01T13:32:45Z dTal: what's typically faster, (+ a a) or (* a 2) ?
2019-08-01T13:33:37Z dTal: and, if (+ a a), what about (+ a a a) vs (* a 3) etc? where's the cutoff?
2019-08-01T13:35:01Z erkin: Shifting left ;-)
2019-08-01T13:35:45Z erkin: I guess it's implementation dependent but I'd say multiplication.
2019-08-01T13:39:15Z rain2: they are the same
2019-08-01T13:39:39Z rain2: (* a 3) is faster than (+ a a a)
2019-08-01T13:39:46Z rain2: just count the number of arithmetic ops
2019-08-01T13:44:18Z dTal: C++ disagrees:
2019-08-01T13:44:37Z dTal: https://godbolt.org/z/7G09hf
2019-08-01T13:44:50Z dTal: it compiles to two adds
2019-08-01T13:45:03Z dTal: (* 3 that is)
2019-08-01T13:48:28Z dTal: unless it's a float, then it adds for *2 but multiplies for *3
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2019-08-01T13:54:19Z rain2: what are you talking about
2019-08-01T13:57:52Z jcowan: dTal: Nowadays addition and multiplication are the same speed.  What is more, fixnum and flonum arithmetic are the same speed too.
2019-08-01T13:58:50Z dTal: using Scheme numbers, I guess you mean
2019-08-01T13:58:53Z jcowan: (To within 5% or so.)  That's a beeeeg switch from the old days, when fixnum arithmetic was *much* faster.
2019-08-01T13:58:57Z jcowan: No, I mean machine numbers.
2019-08-01T13:59:13Z jcowan: (Assuming the same number of bytes in each)
2019-08-01T13:59:22Z dTal: ah. because with scheme numbers I get a big slowdown with flonums
2019-08-01T13:59:25Z jcowan: float64 vs int64
2019-08-01T13:59:33Z jcowan: That's because they are always boxed.
2019-08-01T13:59:37Z dTal: right.
2019-08-01T14:00:13Z dTal: One of these days I'm going to make a "c numbers" library which makes all arthmetic work on 32 bit floats
2019-08-01T14:02:18Z jcowan: Eventually someone will break the 32-bit wall and then they can use Truly Awesome Stuff
2019-08-01T14:03:00Z jcowan: Racket has float32s implemented as part of the numeric tower, but Racket/Chez doesn't and won't.
2019-08-01T14:03:56Z ecraven: I'm hoping for a Scheme that uses NaN-boxing
2019-08-01T14:04:29Z dTal: For Chez at least, its FFI is easy enough that it's really easy to wrap 32-bit arith routines
2019-08-01T14:04:42Z ecraven: dTal: still, all flonums are boxed, which makes for abysmal speed
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2019-08-01T14:05:28Z dTal: but if all arithmetic is done with the C type using the FFI, it won't be right?
2019-08-01T14:05:38Z dTal: it only converts back to native types on demand
2019-08-01T14:05:45Z ecraven: well, you need to not ever get the floats into Scheme, and keep them
2019-08-01T14:05:47Z ecraven: in C
2019-08-01T14:06:08Z dTal: one conversion right at the end for the answer isn't such a big deal
2019-08-01T14:06:13Z jcowan: +1
2019-08-01T14:06:18Z ecraven: yea, but don't you want to write the arithmetic code as Scheme too?
2019-08-01T14:06:39Z dTal: yes but I can just shadow the operators to be C FFI calls
2019-08-01T14:07:15Z ecraven: but that's what won't work, because chez boxes every flonum
2019-08-01T14:07:21Z ecraven: at least it did last I checked
2019-08-01T14:07:40Z jcowan: Most NaN-boxing implementations just squeeze he pointer (and for Scheme purposes, fixnums and doubles) into the signaling NaN space.  For Scheme, though, fast pointers are always going to be more important than fast doubles, so you do a swap of some of the bits so that converted doubles fit around pointer space.
2019-08-01T14:07:47Z jcowan: That's still really quick compared to boxing.
2019-08-01T14:08:32Z dTal: I guess I need to just benchmark this
2019-08-01T14:08:46Z jcowan: Stalin can unbox doubles, I think.
2019-08-01T14:08:58Z dTal: I mean it happily throws around opaque C values without ever converting them
2019-08-01T14:09:02Z ecraven: jcowan: how does that almost-nan-boxing scheme work?
2019-08-01T14:09:19Z ecraven: also, I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, for float-heavy code, direct nan-boxing might be very nice
2019-08-01T14:10:44Z dTal: my experience with floaty code in Chez has been somewhere in the region of an order of magnitude slower than C, which is excellent for a high level language but disappointing for real performance code
2019-08-01T14:11:11Z ggole: That's not excellent for a high level language at all, though
2019-08-01T14:11:26Z dTal: "dynamic" language then
2019-08-01T14:11:40Z ecraven: well, all the typed languages can be much faster, Schemes polymorphic arithmetic makes this harder on the compiler
2019-08-01T14:12:01Z dTal: it's hard to tell because obviously I didn't reimplement my code in C, I'm just going off my gut feeling of what I would have expected from C
2019-08-01T14:12:50Z jcowan: No matter how floaty the code, you're going to be doing a lot of pointer dereferencing.
2019-08-01T14:13:03Z dTal: another reason to use C types and FFI - no polymorphism
2019-08-01T14:13:18Z ggole: The JS engines and Luajit probably do pretty well at floats
2019-08-01T14:14:19Z jcowan: The trick is to encode doubles by doing a *fixnum* addition of 2^48 to them (and subtracting for decoding).  That way, no double has 0000 or FFFF in the high-order bits, which are the only possibilities for a pointer.  The other immediate types are encoded using the 3-bit low tag in pointer space.
2019-08-01T14:15:12Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks, I'll have to look into that
2019-08-01T14:15:13Z jcowan: ggole: Yes, since that's their only numeric type, at least historically.  But some JS engines nanbox and others "punbox" (the name of the above technique, apparently)
2019-08-01T14:16:04Z jcowan: ecraven: Of course you have to rely on int arithmetic doing the obvious thing on overflow, rather than an exception, the wrong answer, or demons flying out of your nose, which is what the C standard says.
2019-08-01T14:16:29Z jcowan: That way adding 2^48 does not cause any loss of information.
2019-08-01T14:16:56Z ecraven: well, if you implement that Scheme in assembly, it's rather obvious what will happen, no UB there
2019-08-01T14:18:37Z dTal: how can you possibly losslessly drop two bytes from a double?
2019-08-01T14:19:12Z ecraven: you can't, not from *all* doubles
2019-08-01T14:19:18Z ecraven: but NaNs have more than two "useless" bytes
2019-08-01T14:19:30Z dTal: I don't see how adding 2^48 can guarantee no 0000 of FFFF in the high order bits
2019-08-01T14:20:48Z amz3: neither do i
2019-08-01T14:22:26Z jcowan: Well, it's what the comment in the Mozilla source code says.
2019-08-01T14:22:27Z ecraven: as far as I understand, out of 64 bit pointers, the highest 16 bits are only ever 0000 or ffff
2019-08-01T14:22:38Z ecraven: as there aren't enough address lines for anything else anyway
2019-08-01T14:22:51Z Riastradh: jcowan: unsigned arithmetic does the obvious thing on overflow in C, guaranteed, no undefined behaviour.
2019-08-01T14:22:56Z jcowan: Not to mention that no reasonable box can have 2^64 bytes or anything like it
2019-08-01T14:23:01Z jcowan: Riastradh: Point.
2019-08-01T14:23:40Z jcowan: ecraven: Yes, assembly works provided your processor DTRT (which is why it's UB in C, just in case)
2019-08-01T14:23:58Z ecraven: jcowan: which current processor doesn't?
2019-08-01T14:24:03Z jcowan: The additional bytes aren't being dropped, just rotated to a different part of double space.
2019-08-01T14:24:05Z jcowan: None, I hope.
2019-08-01T14:24:17Z ecraven: (also, I've been reading up on the pdp 11 and the AGC, very interesting to learn where things came from ;)
2019-08-01T14:24:40Z jcowan: My first CPU still called its addition instruction TAD (two's complement add) because the predecessor architecture had both.
2019-08-01T14:24:49Z jcowan: that was the PDP-8
2019-08-01T14:24:55Z jcowan: and the PDP-4, respectively
2019-08-01T14:25:12Z ecraven: AGC had only 1's complement
2019-08-01T14:25:44Z ecraven: I'm hoping that Oskar will next make a PDP-10 replica (just built the pidp 11 recently) ;) I haven't experienced the actual Blinkenlights, but they are awesome!
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2019-08-01T14:25:49Z jcowan: Going to the moon on a Trash-80!
2019-08-01T14:26:01Z ecraven: entering code directly is just somehow.. amazing ;)
2019-08-01T14:26:09Z jcowan: tiring after a while
2019-08-01T14:26:21Z jcowan: my PDP-8 didn't make you toggle in the bootstrap, it resided in ROM
2019-08-01T14:26:23Z ecraven: definitely ;) that's why it's great to have this optional now ;D
2019-08-01T14:27:32Z jcowan: Earlier models, you toggled in the 17-instruction RIM loader, which read paper tape in "address, value, address, value" format.  You then put the BIN loader tape (in RIM format) into the reader, and then the BIN loader was resident (it cleverly overwrote the RIM loader) and you could load "normal" paper tapes.
2019-08-01T14:28:05Z jcowan: OTOH, memory was magnetic cores, so powering down disturbed only the CPU state, not memory at all.
2019-08-01T14:29:08Z jcowan: The disk bootstrap was only two instructions and was insanely clever.  It relied on you pressing CLEAR on the front panel, which zeroed all registers in the controller along with other things.
2019-08-01T14:29:29Z dTal: core memory requires periodic refresh though?
2019-08-01T14:29:40Z jcowan: No more than a refrigerator magnet.
2019-08-01T14:29:42Z ecraven: just use rope memory then :P
2019-08-01T14:30:02Z jcowan: It's little iron doughnuts in a grid layout.
2019-08-01T14:30:09Z jcowan: Quipus, yes.
2019-08-01T14:31:46Z jcowan: The two instructions of the bootstrap were "Read disk block" and "Jump to self".  The former caused block 0 of the disk to be read into memory location 0, since all registers had been cleared.  The second instruction kept the processor going until the disk overwrote it with a proper busy waiting loop (since interrupts were disabled by the CLEAR along with everything else)
2019-08-01T14:36:19Z jcowan: "It is an ancient Mariner, and he stoppeth one of three / 'By thy long gray beard and glittering eye, now wherefore stops't thou me?"
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2019-08-01T16:39:09Z erkin: jcowan: So they did decide not to implement 32-bit flonums, huh?
2019-08-01T16:39:28Z jcowan: Chez does not, and they've decided to acquiesce, I think.
2019-08-01T16:40:00Z erkin: Matthew Flatt was talking about how it's way too much of a hassle for something most people don't use.
2019-08-01T16:40:06Z erkin: In the mailing list, I mean.
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2019-08-01T16:40:57Z jcowan: Understandable.  Kawa and NexJ support it, probably because they're JVM vehicles.
2019-08-01T16:41:26Z erkin: The impression I got was "we could do this but it's not worth spending labour and time on," so I believe they'd accept it if someone volunteered to implement it.
2019-08-01T16:41:30Z erkin: Yeah, that makes sense.
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2019-08-01T16:41:37Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/FloatPrecision.md has the nitty-gritty on a bunch of Schemes and CLs
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2019-08-01T16:42:40Z erkin: Are there non-JVM Schemes that implement it besides standard Racket?
2019-08-01T16:43:10Z jcowan: If so, they are probably toy Schemes.
2019-08-01T16:43:21Z erkin: Ah well
2019-08-01T16:43:39Z jcowan: I tried to install almost everything on the "fairly complete list" and discarded things that wouldn't build or were too painful to build.
2019-08-01T16:46:36Z jcowan: Racket also has a bigfloat package, but not integrated with the numeric tower; Kawa and CLISP have integrated bigfloats.
2019-08-01T16:47:48Z jcowan: Some JVM Schemes may accept 32-bit floats through the FFI and then throw away the difference, I suppose.  SRFI 4 and 60 implementations normally support float32 vectors, but they get converted to local flonums (usually float64) when read and converted back when written.
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2019-08-01T16:56:00Z erkin: Huh, so Chez only supports IEEE doubles.
2019-08-01T16:57:14Z erkin: I wonder if they'll port Racket's extflonums (80-bit) and bigfloats (arbitrary).
2019-08-01T16:58:54Z jcowan: Since they aren't integrated with the tower, there should be no trouble doing so via the FFI.
2019-08-01T16:59:10Z jcowan: Note however that extflonums are only 80 bits on Intel-ish archs.
2019-08-01T16:59:16Z erkin: That makes sense.
2019-08-01T16:59:24Z erkin: x86 and Itanium?
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2019-08-01T16:59:43Z jcowan: Not sure about Itanium
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2019-08-01T17:07:18Z erkin: Ah, Racket does bigfloats using GNU MPFR.
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2019-08-01T17:10:37Z jcowan: Sure.
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2019-08-01T17:11:14Z justinethier: ecraven - Got racket to run the r7rs benchmarks using: sudo raco pkg install --scope installation r7rs
2019-08-01T17:11:34Z justinethier: you may need to run "raco pkg remove r7rs" if it is already installed
2019-08-01T17:11:51Z justinethier: this may not be the cleanest solution but it works on a fresh install of Arch with Racket 7.3
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2019-08-01T17:18:45Z ecraven: justinethier: thanks!
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2019-08-01T17:19:35Z ecraven: nice! thanks a lot for that!
2019-08-01T17:19:44Z ecraven: I'll do a new run right away
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2019-08-01T17:31:57Z justinethier: ecraven - No problem. Thank you!
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2019-08-01T17:39:18Z ecraven: I also need to figure out chicken5, not sure whether I fixed that yet :-/
2019-08-01T17:39:36Z ecraven: but I'll finish this run first, *then* work out the problems, it's been way too long
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2019-08-01T18:11:30Z jcowan: ecraven: When you get a chance, you should benchmark separately on Racket and Racket/Chez
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2019-08-01T18:57:58Z ecraven: yea, I haven't even tried to build that yet
2019-08-01T18:58:21Z ecraven: I'll move all the benchmarking to containers asap, that'd make it much easier to run whatever version of things
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2019-08-01T20:55:17Z badkins: ecraven: thanks for your work on the benchmarks!
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2019-08-01T22:05:46Z Zipheir: In some older Scheme code one sees a lot of optimized compositions of higher-order procedures--map-fold, tabulate-map, and the like.  IIUC, the point is to eliminate the intermediate structures that result from just composing the usual procs, e.g. (fold g ... (map f ...))
2019-08-01T22:05:57Z Zipheir: How worthwhile is that as an optimization?
2019-08-01T22:06:52Z Zipheir: It can certainly result in a huge number of specialized procedures, and the nice compositionality of higher-order functions is lost.
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2019-08-01T22:13:41Z badkins: Zipheir: maybe it depends on the amount of data for the intermediate structures? Transducers may be of interest to you.
2019-08-01T22:14:38Z dTal: seems like this is the kind of thing that should be an optimization not neccesarily exposed to the programmer, if there's a deterministic and straightforward mapping
2019-08-01T22:15:32Z Zipheir: Right, but you'd need a compiler smart enough to prove fusion theorems about map/fold etc.
2019-08-01T22:16:27Z Zipheir: Obviously laziness can solve some of the cases.
2019-08-01T22:16:27Z dTal: is that a big ask?
2019-08-01T22:16:46Z Zipheir: In the presence of side effects, it might be impossible.
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2019-08-01T22:19:38Z dTal: If laziness would help, again that doesn't need to be done by the programmer
2019-08-01T22:20:12Z dTal: a compiler can simply see that there is e.g. a map followed by a fold, and skip the intermediate data structure
2019-08-01T22:20:51Z Zipheir: Yeah.  I'm personally inclined to just write (reduce ... (map ...)) and friends, rather than creating clutter like map-reduce.
2019-08-01T22:21:09Z jcowan: SRFI 158 generators do a lot of the relevant work there.
2019-08-01T22:21:20Z jcowan: you can write pipelines of generator ops
2019-08-01T22:22:23Z dTal: If you feel like explicitly writing code this way and pulling in a srfi, yeah
2019-08-01T22:22:35Z aeth: Zipheir: can't you normally just combine (reduce ... (map ...)) into (reduce ...') where "...'" is dot-dot-dot-prime, i.e. a slight modification of the original dot-dot-dot
2019-08-01T22:22:47Z aeth: Zipheir: that should work unless there's a global side effect
2019-08-01T22:22:52Z Zipheir: dTal: That's an easy case if you don't have side effects: fold-right f a · map g = fold-right (f · g) a (from Bird & Wadler)
2019-08-01T22:23:40Z dTal is currently reading about term-rewriting systems and this is all terribly interesting
2019-08-01T22:23:41Z Zipheir: aeth: Wait, how so?
2019-08-01T22:25:28Z aeth: well, it's reduce and mapcar in CL... in Racket, it looks like the closest is foldl for reduce, at least in my 2 seconds of writing it
2019-08-01T22:25:38Z aeth: (foldl + 0 (map (lambda (x) (* 2 x)) (list 1 2 3))) => 12
2019-08-01T22:25:41Z aeth: (foldl (lambda (x y) (+ (* x 2) y)) 0 (list 1 2 3)) => 12
2019-08-01T22:25:51Z aeth: If I did that correctly in < 1 minute
2019-08-01T22:26:07Z aeth: Compose the lambda that's being applied, rather than the foldl with map
2019-08-01T22:26:21Z aeth: (well, not quite compose)
2019-08-01T22:27:12Z Zipheir: Right, which is basically the same idea as map-fold.
2019-08-01T22:27:23Z aeth: I hope I did that correctly. In CL's reduce you actually would double the y, not the x
2019-08-01T22:28:48Z aeth: But if you *really* want efficiency, what you probably want is something like CL's LOOP (but please make it look Lispier) instead of 20 special cases like map-fold, or the additional work that I just showed.
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2019-08-01T22:29:46Z Zipheir: I'd rather have the nice mathematical properties of map, fold and friends, but obviously there's a place for loops.
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2019-08-01T22:30:11Z Zipheir: Although there's _no_ place for LOOP. :)
2019-08-01T22:31:38Z aeth: Zipheir: (loop :for x :in foo :sum (* 2 x)) using the keyword-style over the more conventional and imo less readable style is both efficient and clear, so it's the best of both worlds, although obviously not everything is a sum.
2019-08-01T22:31:43Z aeth: Zipheir: The downside is, well, the syntax imo
2019-08-01T22:31:47Z aeth: Not the semantics
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2019-08-01T22:32:30Z aeth: Zipheir: Something as simple as this would have been a major improvement in "Lispiness" and could have had the clauses implemented trivially with &key in CL's destructuring-bind: (loop (:for x :in (list 1 2 3)) (:sum (* 2 x)))
2019-08-01T22:33:23Z aeth: The issue here being that you don't want to pollute the namespace with a lot of special combinations, but you also want the performance as if you did do that.
2019-08-01T22:33:48Z Zipheir: I can't see how that's any real improvement over (fold + 0 (list 1 2 3)), but it's purely a matter of taste.
2019-08-01T22:34:41Z aeth: Zipheir: I mean, why not both? Higher order functions tend to be better or at least equivalent to fancy macros when what you want to do is a procedure like fold, but once you start bringing up lambdas they often are messier imo.
2019-08-01T22:34:53Z aeth: s/like fold/like + in the fold/
2019-08-01T22:35:01Z Zipheir: Er, (reduce + 0 ...) if you want to take advantage of 0 being a right unit of +.
2019-08-01T22:35:55Z Zipheir: Right, there's more than one way to do it.
2019-08-01T22:36:08Z Zipheir: (Sorry, Larry.)
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2019-08-01T22:38:41Z Zipheir: Also, yes, SRFI 158 looks like a very useful tool for this sort of thing.
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2019-08-01T22:42:24Z aeth: Zipheir: Any sufficiently complex iteration (e.g. in an elaborate macro) is probably going to be nested with lots of layers, some using macros and some using procedures (and, in Scheme, some just using plain tail recursion)
2019-08-01T22:42:55Z aeth: Often a loop-like macro makes sense at the top level and/or in a particularly tricky subcase.
2019-08-01T22:43:13Z aeth: (Although, again, in Scheme you'll often prefer tail recursion at the top level)
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2019-08-01T22:44:28Z aeth: The last place where you want to have a one true solution is iteration, especially when you're doing a lot of metaprogramming where the thing is tricky enough and hard to read enough without having to fight the language.
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2019-08-01T23:00:13Z Riastradh: Golly, is this conversation still at it?
2019-08-01T23:01:24Z Riastradh: aeth: You might like foof-loop, if you haven't seen it before!
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2019-08-01T23:05:43Z Zipheir: Well, the original question was whether it's a waste of time to write things like map-fold rather than just (fold ... (map ...)).
2019-08-01T23:05:58Z Zipheir: It morphed back into the loop macro debate.
2019-08-01T23:05:59Z Riastradh: erkin: Hardly anyone uses binary80 these days in any new code.
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2019-08-01T23:21:15Z dTal: (to the tune of footloose) loop, foof-loop, recursion's for all of you dupes
2019-08-01T23:30:49Z Riastradh: Zipheir: There's a simpler way to eliminate intermediate aggregate structures: streams!
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2019-08-01T23:38:53Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Agreed.
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2019-08-02T01:13:56Z jcowan: dTal: Check out Pure (google for purelang); it's a very nice term rewriting + syntax-rules system
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2019-08-02T01:19:12Z rubik: can anyone explain to me the most valuable differences between lisp and scheme? i even read about continuations for example [they're like timemachines :)]
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2019-08-02T01:20:00Z aeth: rubik: between Common Lisp and Scheme?
2019-08-02T01:20:58Z rubik: aeth: yeah that's better
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2019-08-02T01:21:42Z aeth: rubik: Scheme has call/cc, a bunch of renaming to be more consistent (e.g. set-car!), tail recursion, Lisp-1 (unified namespace for functions and variables), fewer generic functions (really just the numeric ones like +), a smaller standard, and more fragmentation (harder to write portable code, extensions are more likely to only run in one place)
2019-08-02T01:21:59Z Zipheir: Lexical scope, too.
2019-08-02T01:22:26Z aeth: CL is lexical scope
2019-08-02T01:23:02Z jcowan: Also syntax-rules macros and macro hygiene generally
2019-08-02T01:23:10Z rubik: sounds fair. i like racket which has that also, hasn't it?
2019-08-02T01:23:14Z aeth: rubik: Common Lisp has CLOS, LOOP, TAGBODY as the basic iteration that macros expand into instead of tail recursion, Lisp-2 (really 3 common namespaces: functions, variables, types/classes), backwards-compatible APIs (which can mean some make no sense), lots of generic things (not just defgeneric, also things like MAP are generic), and more of a focus on manually getting performance (like with its arrays and type declarations).
2019-08-02T01:23:22Z rubik: what about the macro system of scheme?
2019-08-02T01:23:43Z aeth: Right, Scheme has hygienic macros. Common Lisp only has defmacro, which a Scheme isn't required to have
2019-08-02T01:23:58Z jcowan: Some of these things are coming to a Scheme near you, or are already there.
2019-08-02T01:24:00Z rubik: aeth: yeah CommonLISP is huge
2019-08-02T01:24:09Z jcowan: R7RS-large will be HUGER
2019-08-02T01:26:05Z Zipheir: If everything gets voted in...
2019-08-02T01:26:54Z aeth: rubik: Oh, another notable difference which was implicit in the way I wrote things (e.g. set-car! and LOOP) is that Common Lisp upcases things by default, so it's effectively case-insensitive when used normally.
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2019-08-02T01:28:02Z aeth: rubik: And then of course you have #t and #f in Scheme, but in Common Lisp they're t and nil, where nil is also the empty list in Common Lisp.
2019-08-02T01:29:54Z aeth: rubik: Racket is basically a Scheme, with the key exception that its cons pairs (and thus lists) are immutable, so you can't (set-cdr! (cons 1 2)) in Racket. Racket is also multilingual environment, however, and contains several true Schemes.
2019-08-02T01:30:35Z Zipheir: And, of course, Scheme took all defun out of Lisp.
2019-08-02T01:30:43Z aeth: rubik: And Emacs Lisp is basically a Lisp in the historic tradition of Lisps that Common Lisp was designed to replace, which is why there are a lot of superficial similarities where Common Lisp is "backwards compatible" to the (actually newer) Emacs Lisp language. elisp also ports some features from CL.
2019-08-02T01:31:03Z aeth: But there's where you'll see things like dynamic scope
2019-08-02T01:34:19Z aeth: There are some small differences, like (car '()) => NIL in CL and elisp while it's an error in Scheme and Racket.
2019-08-02T01:35:18Z rubik: ok, thx for your typing, i see
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2019-08-02T01:44:02Z Zipheir: Richard Gabriel: "... There are two basic scenarios: the `big complex system' scenario and the `diamond-like jewel' scenario.  The two scenarios correspond to Common Lisp and Scheme."
2019-08-02T01:44:57Z Zipheir: (very much out-of-date!)
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2019-08-02T02:01:58Z jcowan: Oddly, the (car nil) = (cdr nil) = nil was added to late Maclisp as an attempt to compromise with Interlisp (which failed as a political effort).  Before that it was an error, same as in Scheme.
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2019-08-02T02:41:36Z aeth: Another small difference is that in Common Lisp, lists are just nil (here, acting as the empty list instead of false) or cons cells. In Scheme, there is the additional requirement that a list must end with its final cdr as the empty list which is called a "proper list" in Common Lisp. An "improper list" is something like '(1 2 3 . 4) whose final cdr is 4
2019-08-02T02:42:13Z aeth: This is probably the terminology difference with the most practical difference because that means Scheme's list? isn't the same thing as Common Lisp's LISTP
2019-08-02T02:43:27Z aeth: There are other terminology differences. e.g. Conses/cons cells/cons pairs are often (usually?) just called "pairs" in Scheme. Scheme calls its functions "procedures", and I guess that's to reserve "function" for pure functions.
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2019-08-02T02:48:21Z aeth: Notice that Scheme's list? or a CL PROPER-LIST-P is O(n) while the CL LISTP is O(1), but... on the other hand, Scheme's list? is more useful because '(1 2 3 . 4) is LISTP but cannot be used in MAPCAR (Scheme's map)
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2019-08-02T03:31:30Z jcowan: aeth: I don't follow you.  The terminology may differ a bit, but lists are lists
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2019-08-02T03:37:31Z aeth: jcowan: A Common Lisp list by LISTP or (typep ... 'list) is the type (or cons null) while a Scheme list by list? or the definition in 6.4 of r7rs-small.pdf excludes '(1 2 3 4 . 5) because its cdr isn't recursively a list, making dotted lists an edge case where the two languages differ.
2019-08-02T03:38:55Z jcowan: The concepts and terminology are the same (proper vs. improper lists).
2019-08-02T03:39:07Z jcowan: It's true that CL has no pair? and Scheme has no LISTP.
2019-08-02T03:39:15Z aeth: CL counts both proper and improper lists as part of the list type, but Scheme only counts proper lists as part of the list type.
2019-08-02T03:39:17Z jcowan: But they would be easy to define
2019-08-02T03:40:14Z jcowan: Oh, the CL for "pair?" is CONSP
2019-08-02T03:40:15Z aeth: jcowan: CL has a pair, it's CONSP. LISTP could be defined as (or (consp object) (null object))
2019-08-02T03:41:07Z jcowan: But the meaningful, as opposed to nominal, types are the same: the functions that require proper lists in Scheme, require them in CL also.
2019-08-02T03:41:17Z aeth: yes
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2019-08-02T03:43:19Z aeth: It's almost like the case we were talking about a while back where if you make a list of closures in a do loop in CL and Scheme, then in CL they will all refer to the last value (actually, I think it's one step after the last value), but in Scheme they will capture every step because Scheme implements do through recursion and CL doesn't. Practically, they're the same.
2019-08-02T03:44:02Z aeth: s/Practically, they're the same/Practically, both do macros are the same/
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2019-08-02T13:01:10Z dTal: jcowan: thanks for the pointer to Pure, I'd actually just come across it myself. It looks pretty amazing
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2019-08-02T14:11:13Z erkin: Is there any Lisp that distinguishes 'complex' from 'number' in its numerical tower?
2019-08-02T14:12:17Z Riastradh: Haskell
2019-08-02T14:12:18Z Riastradh hides
2019-08-02T14:12:22Z erkin: That is to say, can (and (number? n) (complex? n)) ever return #f?
2019-08-02T14:12:27Z erkin: heh
2019-08-02T14:13:43Z Riastradh: In Scheme48, number? is technically a generic, so one could in principle teach it to answer true for octonions.
2019-08-02T14:19:01Z dTal: isn't it strange that a complex literal in Scheme uses infix notation
2019-08-02T14:19:17Z erkin: Like 2+3i?
2019-08-02T14:19:20Z dTal: yes
2019-08-02T14:19:48Z erkin: I guess.
2019-08-02T14:20:02Z erkin: I can't think of a better way to represent it though.
2019-08-02T14:20:38Z dTal: Oughtn't to be allowed. You can just do (define i (sqrt -1)) and then (+ 2 (* 3 i))
2019-08-02T14:21:47Z erkin: It's also problematic in that since +1i evaluates to 0+1i, it means you can override the symbol '+1x but not '+1i.
2019-08-02T14:22:43Z erkin: (define +1x 0) works, (define +1i 0) is a syntax error.
2019-08-02T14:23:51Z dTal: http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2015/01/if-scheme-were-like-scheme.html
2019-08-02T14:25:11Z jcowan: +1x is not valid in R7RS, which forbids any symbol whose prefix is a well-formed number.
2019-08-02T14:28:57Z jcowan: erkin: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/~dorai/squat/squat.html is a good article by Dorai Sitaram (TY Scheme in Fixnum Days) about everything you'd need to do to integrate quaternions, but AFAIK all hypothetical.  Even Racket's non-integrated quaternion package doesn't do everything listed here.
2019-08-02T14:29:33Z jcowan: dTal: No stranger than the use of 1/2 for literal fractions.  I think it's quite nice:  "Write number literals as you do in mathematics."
2019-08-02T14:29:47Z jcowan: (plus of course the #b, #d, #i, etc. prefixed)
2019-08-02T14:30:42Z jcowan: CL has 1/2 but has to write #c(1 2), which looks much more mysterious until you're used to it.  ("A man can get used to anything, even hanging.")
2019-08-02T14:31:32Z dTal: I agree that it's quite nice. I just kind of wish that the set of syntax sugar that was generally accepted as "quite nice" in the Scheme community exceeded the set that Scheme happened to have at this moment in time
2019-08-02T14:32:30Z jcowan: What I wish is that Scheme defined a notion of "potential numbers" like CLs, that are forever excluded from identifiers.  In R7RS, at least quaternion/octonian notation is excluded.
2019-08-02T14:32:42Z dTal: (I may have been a tad facetiously sarcastic with my "oughtnt to be allowed" remark)
2019-08-02T14:35:58Z jcowan: Poe's law strikes!
2019-08-02T14:36:25Z jcowan: But the R7RS rules were foof's idea.
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2019-08-02T15:11:32Z gwatt: jcowan: pretty sure you can just write
2019-08-02T15:11:39Z Riastradh: Heh.  Is that blog post a joke?
2019-08-02T15:11:55Z gwatt: "1/2" in CL. #C(1 2) is scheme's 1+2i
2019-08-02T15:11:58Z jcowan: Riastradh: Perhaps, considering Poe's law.  Why would you think so?
2019-08-02T15:13:42Z erkin: I like how j axis uses 'jmag-part'
2019-08-02T15:13:47Z Riastradh: The conclusion is absurd enough that it could easily be a joke.  But there are also people emotionally invested enough in ideological purity to believe they want that.
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2019-08-02T15:46:22Z jcowan: Riastradh: Oh, the Arcane Sentiment posting?  (I thought you meant some other).  I'd say that was HHOS.
2019-08-02T15:46:30Z jcowan: But yes, a satire.
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2019-08-02T16:42:23Z amz3: w3c got s-expression almost correctly https://webassembly.github.io/wabt/demo/wat2wasm/
2019-08-02T16:42:33Z amz3: wasm is stack language apparantly
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2019-08-02T17:25:48Z enderby-: http://library.readscheme.org/ doesn't seem to be active anymore?
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2019-08-02T17:28:13Z erkin: Ah yeah, it went down a while ago.
2019-08-02T17:28:19Z erkin: It hadn't been updated in quite a while anyway.
2019-08-02T17:28:28Z erkin: I'm sure you can find archives of it.
2019-08-02T17:29:04Z enderby-: erkin: gotcha
2019-08-02T17:29:29Z jcowan: The IP address is still working, only the name is gone.  Ask around, and then put it in your /etc/hosts file.
2019-08-02T17:29:36Z jcowan: Also there are some mirrors.
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2019-08-03T00:07:09Z badkins: jcowan: I'm reading through old emails on the "scheme-reports-wg2" list. I see a bunch for 2010, and then only 1 email for 2011 and 4 for 2012 - is that right? What happened there? I'm just trying to get an idea of what's going on with WG2
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2019-08-03T00:16:53Z jcowan: badkins: We are basically between votes.  If you look at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ColorDockets.md you can see that we are going to vote on things listed on the Orange Docket next.  However, many of them need to become SRFIs first, though I have pre-SRFIs at the same repo.
2019-08-03T00:17:04Z jcowan: What I don't have is sample implementations, and that's the bottleneck.
2019-08-03T00:17:21Z jcowan: It's taken me approximately forever to finish the impl for SRFI 160, which was voted on in the Tangerine Docket.
2019-08-03T00:18:01Z jcowan: So when no voting is going on, most posts go to the SRFI mailing lists.
2019-08-03T00:18:13Z jcowan: (I should post this summary someplace.)
2019-08-03T00:18:29Z badkins: I know there is a R7RS-small and R7RS-large, but is there a clear specification of R7RS-large for just the core language sans libraries?
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2019-08-03T00:20:35Z badkins: In other words, when considering the entire set of things that would make Scheme an attractive development language for a software developer such as myself, I naturally create two sets in my head - a core language & libraries (including macros), and ideally, anything that can be *effectively* implemented in a library is - leaving a core language as small as possible, but no smaller.
2019-08-03T00:21:26Z badkins: It *seems* from my brief perusal that the language and libraries are being treated together.
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2019-08-03T00:33:33Z jcowan: Everything's in a library, as in R6RS.  R7RS-small specifies some libraries, R7RS-large specifies many more -- and the set grows as we vote on them.
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2019-08-03T00:36:36Z jcowan: The "base library" provides the things we think every Schemer could use and every implementer, however tiny the implementation, ought to be able to provide.  The R7RS-small libraries provide convenience functions and macros, I/O, character comparisons and conversions, inexact numbers, complex numbers, time of day, and the REPL.  All existing R7RS-small implementations provide all the libs.
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2019-08-03T00:38:04Z badkins: "Everything's in a library"  ? This makes no sense. Surely there is a language specification distinct from the libraries, right?
2019-08-03T00:38:27Z jcowan: But even the base library is not bare-bones, otherwise pairs would onlly have car, cdr, cons, and pair?, plus set-car! and set-cdr!.
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2019-08-03T00:39:46Z badkins: As an example, doesn't an efficient implementation of SRFI 160 require language support?
2019-08-03T00:39:48Z jcowan: All the "language" features are in the small language, and most of them in the base lib.  Because of Scheme's extensible syntax, there really is no bright line between "language" and "library".
2019-08-03T00:40:00Z jcowan scratches his head
2019-08-03T00:40:15Z jcowan: It requires bytevectors, which are part of the base library.
2019-08-03T00:40:29Z jcowan: Is that what you mean?
2019-08-03T00:40:43Z badkins: Ok, so you're saying that the language spec for R7RS-small is sufficient to be able to provide all additional functionality for R7RS-large efficiently?
2019-08-03T00:42:21Z badkins: Call me naive, but if the language spec for R7RS-small *is* sufficient to provide all additional functionality efficiently, then it seems a possible approach is to implement an R7RS package system and let the market decide on the canonical set of libraries.
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2019-08-03T00:42:50Z badkins: I do see a benefit of a "standard library" certainly, but if it takes a decade to get it, wow ...
2019-08-03T00:43:33Z badkins: I was under the mistaken impression that WG2 was also hashing out language issues e.g. FFI, etc.
2019-08-03T00:43:55Z badkins: I clearly need to read the R7RS-small language spec !!
2019-08-03T00:47:02Z badkins: I'm not a compiler guy, just a simple application developer, so some of this isn't obvious to me, but as an example, the macro expander R7RS-small is sufficient to create syntax-case, right?
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2019-08-03T00:49:08Z badkins: re: the "bright line" between language and library, I would define it thusly, "if a feature can not be implemented as efficiently in a library as in the core language, it should be implemented in the core language"
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2019-08-03T02:09:29Z badkins: I didn't find anything about FFI in the R7RS spec. It doesn't *seem* possible to add that as a library.
2019-08-03T02:16:06Z jcowan: badkins: No, by no means.  We try to make it so as much as possible, but some libraries (most obviously Posix) have inherently non-portable implementations.  I (as chair) have made object systems and FFI (too many, too different) out of scope as well as some other things.  If you look at the Yellow and Green dockets on the ColorDockets page linked above, they contain the non-portable libs.
2019-08-03T02:17:11Z jcowan: Specifically, R7RS-small standardized only syntax-rules, and you can't build any other macro systems on top of that, although the opposite is true.  So we'll need votes to see what gets into R7RS-large.
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2019-08-03T02:19:22Z badkins: I see. Maybe you now understand my skepticism of, "Everything's in a library" :) I personally feel it's more important to define the core language so it's *possible* for additional functionality to be added in libraries.
2019-08-03T02:19:58Z badkins: Once the base is sufficient, writing portable libraries is somewhat trivial, but w/o that base, *some* things are simply not possible in a library.
2019-08-03T02:23:07Z badkins: For example, is it even possible to write a Postgres library that utilizes Postgres' wire protocol in R7RS? I sincerely hope so, but it doesn't seem so, and if not, I can't view that as anything but a failure.
2019-08-03T02:29:50Z badkins: Rather than spending so much time voting on which libraries should be included, wouldn't it be better to spend time defining a core language that would make any *reasonable* library possible? I would consider that a success even if no libraries were identified.
2019-08-03T02:30:28Z badkins: Because then it would be possible to write thousands of portable libraries.
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2019-08-03T02:55:03Z dTal: badkins: no, that's what the previous, minimal Schemes attempted. The problem then is you get many *competing* implementations of popular library functions, with no One True Blessed Stdlib.
2019-08-03T02:55:17Z jcowan: I hope it will be.  But without a portable FFI in the small language, it's just not possible to make *every* library portable, unless the small language has all the Posix and Windows APIs (over 1100 of the former, who knows how many of the latter).
2019-08-03T02:55:45Z jcowan: And I judged that a portable FFI was unattainable.  In particular, a C API for JVM or CLR based Schemes would deeply suck.
2019-08-03T02:55:59Z badkins: dTal: that's not my understanding (but I may be incorrect) - I don't think it's *ever* been the case where we could write fully portable libraries
2019-08-03T02:57:42Z badkins: I'd personally be satisfied with just supporting Unix-like systems, and frankly, even though I develop on Mac OSX, I'd even be satisfied with a Linux-only solution if that moved things along, but I know that's wishful thinking.
2019-08-03T02:58:58Z badkins: jcowan: I agree with the infeasibility of making *every* library portable, but it does seem like a *reasonable* subset is feasible - just using the 80/20 rule.
2019-08-03T02:59:57Z badkins: And maybe R7RS allows for a Postgres wire protocol library via ports - it wasn't clear if those allowed for socket communication or not.
2019-08-03T03:01:12Z badkins: Sorry for the argumentative stance, but I'm actually looking for a reason to not just code specifically to Racket, and I'm unable to find that reason.
2019-08-03T03:01:30Z badkins: ...and it's 2019, and I'm frustrated...
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2019-08-03T03:06:02Z dTal: sorry, my reply may have been at cross purposes to the discussion. You were referring specifically to libraries that interface with an external system, hence the FFI talk, whereas my response had in mind pure-Scheme libraries, which have of course always been possible
2019-08-03T03:06:29Z jcowan: I think it's fine to code specifically to a particular Scheme.  But if you put one eye on the standard, and try to keep the non-standard modules to a minimum, it will probably be a Good Thing.
2019-08-03T03:06:57Z jcowan: That's the same advice programmers in every language are given, except perhaps awk.
2019-08-03T03:07:16Z badkins: Ruby? Python? I don't think so actually.
2019-08-03T03:07:44Z badkins: Clojure? and countless others.
2019-08-03T03:07:53Z jcowan: Sure.  Python has non-portable modules (there are no *standards* for those languages, after all), but comparatively few.
2019-08-03T03:08:26Z jcowan: If there aren't any standards at all, that's quite different.  Clojure is whatever will make the most money for Cognitect.
2019-08-03T03:08:31Z badkins: Well, I haven't hit a snag in over a decade.
2019-08-03T03:08:45Z jcowan: In Racket?
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2019-08-03T03:09:05Z badkins: I realize the R7RS ship has sailed already, but it's too bad more time wasn't spent on the core language that would've supported the library ecosystem.
2019-08-03T03:09:15Z badkins: jcowan: no, in Ruby
2019-08-03T03:09:52Z jcowan: Ah.  I know something about Perl and Smalltalk, but have never used Ruby in anger.
2019-08-03T03:10:04Z badkins: If I didn't like Scheme so much, it wouldn't be so painful seeing it so effectively dividing and conquering itself!
2019-08-03T03:10:29Z jcowan: So say we all, I think.
2019-08-03T03:11:10Z jcowan smiles ruefully
2019-08-03T03:11:28Z badkins: One approach is to just give in to the "single implementation" way i.e. code in Racket and make use of all the "vendor"-specific features, but it doesn't seem *that* hard to simply nail down a core-language spec that covers networking, file I/O, basic FFI, and then allow the library ecosystem to bloom.
2019-08-03T03:12:04Z jcowan: Then join the SRFI 170 mailing list: we can use insights on that.
2019-08-03T03:12:10Z jcowan: (for Posix)
2019-08-03T03:12:28Z jcowan: ATM we are trying to prune a large spec (but nowhere near as large as Posix) on the 80-20 principle.
2019-08-03T03:13:01Z jcowan: There's also a Web sub-working-group that I'm not even active in (I have enough to do)
2019-08-03T03:14:05Z badkins: "Web" sounds like it can be solved entirely at the library level - assuming networking libs are standard.
2019-08-03T03:14:56Z badkins: And really, I would just copy Racket for the networking piece and move on.
2019-08-03T03:17:02Z badkins: It just seems like we have so much history of what's worked well with CPAN, Ruby Gems, etc.  Why reinvent the wheel?  Sure, Ruby had it easier by skipping the pesky standards process, but how about focusing all effort on the core, and then let the vast community create the libraries?
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2019-08-03T03:25:11Z jcowan: badkins: You know about the Curse of Lisp?
2019-08-03T03:32:12Z Zipheir: Why are networking and FFI unsuitable as libraries?  I can't see why those are "core or bust" features.
2019-08-03T03:33:05Z Zipheir: FFI in the core language, in particular, seems crazy.
2019-08-03T03:33:09Z Riastradh: just add a \special{...} macro for the driver to handle, problem solved
2019-08-03T03:42:46Z Zipheir: ^^ It all sounds like another "Scheme is so random, in 2019 programmers want everything to be shiny and batteries-included with a smiling Big Brother figure ensuring everything is Neat und Tidy" rave.
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2019-08-03T04:15:31Z mdhughes: Is the Curse of LISP: "This LISP is almost what I need. I know, I'll write a whole new LISP from scratch!"
2019-08-03T04:19:52Z mdhughes: Also, half the functions are (foo datum list) the other half are (bar list datum). I just lost 30 minutes to a bug from that.
2019-08-03T04:25:21Z Zipheir: Sounds very familiar.
2019-08-03T04:46:34Z jcowan: mdhughes: Partly.  But then the person who says so doesn't finish it.
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2019-08-03T04:59:13Z jcowan: The Curse of Lisp is that Lispers see a need for a library, write the 20% they need *personally*, and that's the end of that.
2019-08-03T04:59:14Z jcowan: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2019-08-03T05:00:00Z jcowan: SRFI 1 was one of the first on the Scheme side to break that trend.  Olin specced a *comprehensive* library (I'm good at that) and then followed through with the code (I'm less good at that).
2019-08-03T05:00:38Z jcowan: But when heads fail bodies must serve, as they say in Gondor.
2019-08-03T05:02:26Z Zipheir: jcowan: You're a great steward, just don't go all Denethor on us. :)
2019-08-03T05:03:13Z jcowan: No fear of that.  I may despair, but "despair is an emotion like any other.  It is the *habit* of despair that damns."
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2019-08-03T05:14:27Z mdhughes: "Large numbers of the kind of people who become Lisp hackers would have to cooperate with each other."
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2019-08-03T11:38:45Z amz3: I changed the license of arew scheme to apache 2.0 and made a release. (arew scheme is chez scheme distribution with r7rs libraries)
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2019-08-03T14:52:48Z Zipheir: amz3: Link?
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2019-08-03T15:39:31Z amz3: https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/chez-scheme-arew
2019-08-03T15:39:41Z amz3: or https://github.com/amirouche/arew-scheme/releases/new#
2019-08-03T15:39:43Z amz3: Zipheir:^
2019-08-03T15:40:50Z amz3: I mean to paste https://github.com/amirouche/arew-scheme/releases/tag/v0.2.0
2019-08-03T15:41:26Z Zipheir: amz3: ty, nice.
2019-08-03T15:41:43Z amz3: tx
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2019-08-03T16:35:29Z srandon111: guys can i with current scheme do the exercises (and follow) SICP ?
2019-08-03T16:35:39Z srandon111: structure and interpretation of computer programs
2019-08-03T16:35:55Z erkin: Of course.
2019-08-03T16:36:43Z erkin: SICP uses very primitive Scheme functionality and progressively builds higher level concepts upon them.
2019-08-03T16:36:56Z erkin: Pretty much nothing is library or implementation dependent.
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2019-08-03T16:37:38Z erkin: It also teaches you to write higher-level programs in the *absence* of a low-level base to build upon, like the chapter on painting language.
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2019-08-03T16:40:49Z srandon111: erkin, why do you prefer scheme to lisp? i a new to lisp and its dialects so was wondering about the major differences
2019-08-03T16:41:04Z srandon111: why should one prefer clisp or scheme
2019-08-03T16:41:05Z srandon111: ?
2019-08-03T16:42:20Z erkin: I personally like Scheme better than Common Lisp because it's very simple, clean and elegant. Common Lisp puts me off with all the legacy cruft it carries.
2019-08-03T16:43:02Z erkin: Not to mention Common Lisp treats procedures separately than other values. In Scheme, procedures are just named lambdas.
2019-08-03T16:43:12Z erkin: It might be a small thing but it really puts me off.
2019-08-03T16:43:28Z erkin: At the end of the day, it's a matter of taste and finding the right tool for your task.
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2019-08-03T16:44:04Z dTal: this is on the front page of Hacker News right now: https://cons.io/
2019-08-03T16:44:18Z erkin: I recommend checking out both Common Lisp and Scheme to see how much they differ, even if superficially.
2019-08-03T16:45:18Z dTal: it doesn't appear to have much theoretical documentation though - I want to know what's meant by "meta-dialect" and "the macro is the compiler", but it just drops those intruiging statements and says nothing more about it
2019-08-03T16:45:37Z Zipheir: Oh, hey, Gerbil.
2019-08-03T16:46:05Z erkin: dTal: You can always ask the author, vyzo here. ;-)
2019-08-03T16:46:20Z dTal: vyzo: what gives ^
2019-08-03T16:46:21Z dTal: :p
2019-08-03T16:46:49Z dTal: also grats on making the front page of HN
2019-08-03T16:47:16Z Riastradh: Condolences on having a horde of commentators from the orange site at your doorstep!
2019-08-03T16:47:53Z erkin: My quality of life improved ever since I started reading HN through n-gate exclusively.
2019-08-03T16:48:07Z dTal: but yeah the site definitely needs a "what is Gerbil" and/or "why Gerbil" page
2019-08-03T16:48:38Z dTal: *what* "post-modern features"?
2019-08-03T16:49:11Z stepnem: https://fare.livejournal.com/188429.html "PS (2017-08-23): A few months onward, I've mostly jumped ship from Common Lisp... but not to Racket, and instead to Gerbil Scheme."
2019-08-03T16:49:28Z stepnem: (blog post of one of the developers)
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2019-08-03T16:55:26Z amz3: gerbil @ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20585637
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2019-08-03T17:26:40Z srandon111: erkin, ok so if i would like to start with scheme, would you advice just scheme ? and not to go on things like racket and stuff like tha right?
2019-08-03T17:26:44Z srandon111: erkin, ok so if i would like to start with scheme, would you advice just scheme ? and not to go on things like racket and stuff like that right?
2019-08-03T17:27:19Z srandon111: erkin, ok also, what compiler should i use ? are there libraries to do async http or network programming like libpcap? also is there something similar to slime ?
2019-08-03T17:28:29Z erkin: Racket is also completely fine for a beginner. Maybe even more accessible too.
2019-08-03T17:28:46Z erkin: GEISER is the closest thing to SLIME there is, for Scheme.
2019-08-03T17:29:34Z erkin: In fact, I think Racket would be more fitting than other Schemes for your needs, given the amount of libraries and ease of access.
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2019-08-03T17:33:28Z srandon111: erkin, why? what's the problem  with common scheme ?
2019-08-03T17:33:40Z srandon111: erkin, there are no libraries for the stuff i mentioned?
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2019-08-03T17:37:34Z Zipheir: Common Scheme??
2019-08-03T17:38:18Z dTal: that'll be the day!
2019-08-03T17:38:46Z erkin: srandon111: There are, but standard Racket base contains a lot of libraries.
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2019-08-03T17:39:51Z erkin: And there's no 'common' Scheme. There're standards and various implementations thereof.
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2019-08-03T17:40:11Z srandon111: Zipheir, ok sorry the name is just scheme ? there multiple implementations ?
2019-08-03T17:40:22Z srandon111: erkin, what implementation would you sugest?
2019-08-03T17:40:37Z srandon111: also what is the package manager for scheme? is there someething similar to pip for python ?
2019-08-03T17:40:47Z erkin: There's Akku for R6RS/R7RS conformant Schemes.
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2019-08-03T17:40:54Z erkin: Racket has raco.
2019-08-03T17:41:09Z beluga0: srandon111: yes. Scheme defines a relatively loose standard. While it's possible to write code that works portably, you usually just write for one implementation
2019-08-03T17:41:30Z beluga0: usually each implementation comes with its own tooling like package managers
2019-08-03T17:42:07Z srandon111: erkin, how different is racket from scheme? can i do sicp also with racket ? what i did not like about racket is drracket, i would just want to use vim
2019-08-03T17:42:16Z srandon111: ok beluga0 thanks
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2019-08-03T17:42:55Z erkin: Yes, you can follow SICP 100% with Racket. And you don't need to use DrRacket. I just use Emacs's racket-mode.
2019-08-03T17:43:22Z srandon111: ok erkin seems that for lisp and scheme more people use emacs wrt vim...
2019-08-03T17:43:26Z beluga0: srandon111: Racket has a #lang sicp (Google it) that lets you do SICP exercises with no modifications. If you want Vim keybindings plus racket-mode, try Evil mode for Emacs (although Vim works fine too)
2019-08-03T17:43:43Z erkin: Racket comes with R5RS and R6RS conformance modes. The only major difference between Racket and other Schemes is that all lists are immutable by default in Racket, which I believe to be a good thing.
2019-08-03T17:44:17Z beluga0: srandon111: and yes, that's probably because Emacs is mostly written in Emacs Lisp, so Lisp people like customizing their editor in a Lisp...
2019-08-03T17:44:44Z Zipheir: The immutable pairs might cause some problems with SICP, which uses set-car!/-cdr!, IIRC.
2019-08-03T17:44:48Z erkin: Then again, you can more or less make lists immutable in any Scheme if you simply don't export set-car! and set-cdr!. :-P
2019-08-03T17:45:10Z beluga0: Zipheir: that's what #lang sicp is for
2019-08-03T17:45:11Z Zipheir: ... but that's what #lang sicp is for.
2019-08-03T17:45:15Z Zipheir: jinx!
2019-08-03T17:45:18Z erkin: haha
2019-08-03T17:45:27Z beluga0: I promise we're not the same person
2019-08-03T17:45:54Z erkin: Racket contains *several* Schemes, now that I think of it.
2019-08-03T17:47:00Z erkin: #lang R5RS comes with set-car! and set-cdr!
2019-08-03T17:47:29Z erkin: Or #lang R6RS w/ (rnrs mutable-pairs (6))
2019-08-03T17:49:27Z srandon111: erkin, what do you guys think can be the advantage of languages like scheme over more common/trendy/famous languages like python/ruby and so on ?
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2019-08-03T17:51:00Z beluga0: srandon111: depends on what you're doing with it. It will probably provide similar development time as Python or Ruby (possibly more productive but fewer libraries), run faster, etc. There are lots of implementations with different goals
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2019-08-03T17:52:07Z srandon111: beluga0, ok so depending on what i am doing, where does it really shine?
2019-08-03T17:52:34Z erkin: I like that Lisps let me comfortably play code in both low-level and high-level layers. Racket's a general purpose tool that lets me write domain-specific languages that I can easily adapt to writing administration scripts, making modular web servers, crunching numbers, making GUI programs, writing compilers, embedding code in larger projects like games, etc.
2019-08-03T17:53:12Z erkin: And each of these can play together well with minimal glue code.
2019-08-03T17:53:38Z beluga0: I personally only use it because it's fun. Most Schemes have a small core (Racket is a little bigger, but still pretty small) and huge abstraction power.
2019-08-03T17:53:57Z erkin: It's a programmable programming language!
2019-08-03T17:53:57Z beluga0: There was some good discussion a few days ago about these concepts here: https://lobste.rs/s/ytuyya/perfect_language_why_go_still_isn_t_it
2019-08-03T17:54:12Z Zipheir: srandon111: This question comes up constantly.  The best advice, I think, is to learn the language and decide whether it's useful to you.  Everyone else's opinion will matter little if you find the language useful/a waste of time.
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2019-08-03T17:54:32Z erkin: That's a good point. Still, gotta do an elevator pitch, don't ya?
2019-08-03T17:55:16Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2019-08-03T17:56:18Z Zipheir: "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." (Perlis)
2019-08-03T17:56:30Z Zipheir: Scheme *definitely* did that for me.
2019-08-03T17:56:50Z beluga0: "A language that doesn't affect the way you think is not worth knowing" -- me
2019-08-03T17:56:58Z beluga0: now it works for both human and computer languages
2019-08-03T17:57:02Z erkin: hehe
2019-08-03T17:57:13Z erkin: I got too spoilt by Lisp's orthogonality.
2019-08-03T17:57:54Z erkin: Hm, should set-car! return #<void>, the car value or the list itself?
2019-08-03T17:59:55Z erkin: Apparently it's unspecified in both R5RS and R6RS.
2019-08-03T18:00:14Z srandon111: Zipheir, who is perlis? and what does it mean?
2019-08-03T18:00:33Z beluga0: erkin: and r7rs-small. see pg 41
2019-08-03T18:00:41Z erkin: srandon111: Alan Perlis
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2019-08-03T18:01:17Z srandon111: ohh okok thanks
2019-08-03T18:01:30Z erkin: R7RS is also unspecified.
2019-08-03T18:02:13Z Zipheir: srandon111: This is something of a classic http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html
2019-08-03T18:02:15Z mdhughes: If you're doing SICP, MIT Scheme is probably the easiest since it's the actual implementation used, and it's very focused, just the classic environment and edwin (like emacs but Schemey).
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2019-08-03T18:03:03Z srandon111: Zipheir, but what doesit mean?
2019-08-03T18:05:14Z Zipheir: srandon111: As I understand it, it means that there are languages that are familiar and "get the job done", and languages that have a perspective on computation all their own.
2019-08-03T18:06:20Z Zipheir: srandon111: The former can be useful for solving problems, but the latter end up becoming part of how *you* think about computation.
2019-08-03T18:07:46Z Zipheir: And you end up using the approaches you learned from the latter languages when attacking problems in pedestrian languages.  So don't bother with the pedestrian languages unless you have to.
2019-08-03T18:07:55Z Zipheir: But Perlis says it a lot better.
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2019-08-03T18:10:42Z mdhughes: Does Gerbil have a page I haven't found where it explains how it's different from other Schemes?
2019-08-03T18:14:37Z mdhughes: So far I've seen a lot of stuff built-in, but they named hashtables "table" instead of "hashtable" or "hash-table", because consistency is the hobgoblin of little Schemes.
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2019-08-03T18:16:13Z srandon111: Zipheir, ok another question... if languages like lisp and scheme are so good and simple... why they are not pedestrian languages?
2019-08-03T18:16:20Z Zipheir: Weird.  I guess the designer frows upon SRFI 69?
2019-08-03T18:16:25Z Zipheir: s/frows/frowns/
2019-08-03T18:16:55Z mdhughes: Best SRFI number ever.
2019-08-03T18:17:18Z Zipheir: srandon111: I meant `pedestrian' to mean `boring', not `used by the person in the street'. :)
2019-08-03T18:18:17Z srandon111: Zipheir, ok but why they are not popular althouhgh the advatntages?
2019-08-03T18:19:02Z Zipheir: srandon111: You'll get lots of answers to that, but IMO (a) the Curse of Lisp, and (b) people are scared of the syntax.
2019-08-03T18:19:30Z srandon111: whats the curse of lisp???
2019-08-03T18:19:51Z mdhughes: AI Winter in the '90s killed Symbolics and chased a lot of money out of the LISP ecosystems. Now even tho we're in a new AI Spring, there's still people wary of LISP-types.
2019-08-03T18:19:52Z Zipheir: srandon111: Oh yeah, and because "what's popular" is an enormous crap-shoot in all human matters.
2019-08-03T18:20:59Z Zipheir: srandon111: The Curse of Lisp: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2019-08-03T18:21:13Z mdhughes: There's also behavioral problems with some LISP users: http://wiki.c2.com/?SmugLispWeenie
2019-08-03T18:23:48Z mdhughes: Back in the day, LISP was actually pretty slow, so you got a less-performant system not that many programmers could/would work on. Now LISP and Scheme are fast (better compilers, and everyone else got slower as they added features).
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2019-08-03T18:27:45Z Zipheir: Ron Garret's lecture on the death of LISP at NASA is always educational https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZK0tW8EhQ
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2019-08-03T18:39:45Z erkin: I don't think popularity is related to quality at all.
2019-08-03T18:39:57Z erkin: A lot of popular software is really terrible.
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2019-08-03T18:48:25Z srandon111: erkin, for example?
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2019-08-03T19:10:56Z mdhughes: Zipheir: It's more striking the pessimism about NASA in that video… in 2012, just before SpaceX, Blue Horizon, etc. started flying real missions, instead of useless Boeing/ULA.
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2019-08-03T19:13:18Z erkin: srandon111: PHP
2019-08-03T19:14:30Z srandon111: erkin, why  PHP is bad?
2019-08-03T19:23:16Z Zipheir: srandon111: It says something when a language originally used strlen() as a hash function ... https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/70691
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2019-08-03T19:23:56Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Yeah, it gets pretty bitter. :(
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2019-08-03T19:49:38Z dwdv: mdhughes: There is the good old ordinary hash-table in gerbil, see: https://cons.io/reference/core-builtin.html#hash-tables
2019-08-03T19:49:59Z dwdv: The other thing is just syntactic sugar: https://cons.io/reference/sugar.html#hash
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2019-08-03T19:56:46Z srandon111: dwdv, is this gerbil really that good?
2019-08-03T20:00:56Z mdhughes: I've been using Chicken https://call-cc.org which has a big community and good library support. Hadn't seen a lot of people using Gambit/Gerbil previously.
2019-08-03T20:04:36Z dwdv: Like all schemes it could be faster. None of the popular ones on the benchmark sites, that I've tried, have delivered on that front. Nim is always less code and x times faster no matter what. That's my big gripe with it apart from the pretty small community. Other than that it has a nice module system similar to racket, built-in pattern matching, an actor system, threading support, comes with a lot of SRFIs on-board and has a
2019-08-03T20:04:36Z dwdv: slick base (gambit). yadda, yadda.
2019-08-03T20:06:11Z dwdv: Oh, and the docs are not its strongest trait, to be honest. Hopefully that changes this year.
2019-08-03T20:06:18Z srandon111: dwdv, what's nim?
2019-08-03T20:06:22Z srandon111: is it like scheme ?
2019-08-03T20:06:23Z dwdv: Racket is still king when in comes to scheme docs.
2019-08-03T20:06:35Z srandon111: dwdv, scheme docs?
2019-08-03T20:06:42Z srandon111: you mean documentation?
2019-08-03T20:06:51Z dwdv: Python-like syntax, transpiles to c like gamibt, gerbil and chicken scheme.
2019-08-03T20:08:04Z mdhughes: I'd probably say Chez has the best core docs, since it's just TSPL, which is the most readable real-world-Scheme book.
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2019-08-03T20:10:22Z srandon111: mdhughes, what is tspl ?
2019-08-03T20:10:34Z dwdv: The Scheme Programming Language
2019-08-03T20:10:56Z mdhughes: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/
2019-08-03T20:11:32Z dwdv: Does TSPLe4 cover RS6S?
2019-08-03T20:11:51Z mdhughes: Kent Dybvig wrote that and has been writing Chez Scheme for uh, 34 years now.
2019-08-03T20:12:23Z mdhughes: Yeah, it's just R6RS but as tutorial, not spec.
2019-08-03T20:14:35Z dwdv: Still, docs like these https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/match.html are darn impressive if you ask me.
2019-08-03T20:16:28Z mdhughes: Racket's docs are nice until you get into libraries, where there are rarely examples or guides of how to connect the APIs.
2019-08-03T20:17:24Z mdhughes: GUI, networking, and threading just stymied me with it. (and then when I got a Racket GUI stood up, it was unacceptably slow)
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2019-08-03T20:44:06Z wasamasa: mdhughes: gerbil aims to be gambit, but this time with really good libraries for it
2019-08-03T20:44:18Z wasamasa: mdhughes: also, pluggable support for r7rs and whatnot
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2019-08-03T21:45:14Z badkins: Zipheir: re: your comment, "FFI in the core language, in particular, seems crazy." - I'm probably simply misunderstanding what it takes to implement FFI, but I didn't think it was possible to do so in a library if the core language didn't provide some primitives to support it.
2019-08-03T21:46:10Z badkins: I like the idea of putting as much into libraries as possible as long as no inefficiencies are introduced - just seems like a cleaner design to me.
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2019-08-03T21:59:02Z Zipheir: badkins: Sorry for the grouchy comment.  I understand what you mean.  It would be interesting to have some 'generic FFI' procedures like CHICKEN's `foreign-lambda' in the core of a Scheme, but even that is specified only for 'C-compatible languages' http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Module (chicken foreign)
2019-08-03T21:59:48Z badkins: No apology necessary :) I'm just trying to get a feel for the core vs. library boundary in typical Scheme implementations.
2019-08-03T21:59:50Z Zipheir: Creating a semantic bridge to as-yet-unknown languages seems very difficult at best.
2019-08-03T22:00:20Z badkins: I think a C FFI is a reasonable assumption.
2019-08-03T22:01:07Z wasamasa: the devil is in the details
2019-08-03T22:01:36Z Zipheir: The Great Quux has a really good talk on the core language vs. library issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0
2019-08-03T22:02:17Z wasamasa: a C FFI is not too bad to provide, providing the same for all implementations, oof
2019-08-03T22:03:20Z mdhughes: A number of Schemes run on non-C platforms now, like JS or WASM.
2019-08-03T22:03:31Z badkins: I probably put way too much emphasis on FFI - in 30+ years of development, I haven't need FFI all that often, and if the R7RS-small language allows for socket communication, then things may be brighter than I thought :)
2019-08-03T22:03:49Z wasamasa: it doesn't
2019-08-03T22:04:00Z badkins: wasamasa: can't you use a port to open a socket?
2019-08-03T22:04:01Z wasamasa: there's been at least one SRFI attempt for this though
2019-08-03T22:04:28Z wasamasa: no, there's just file, string and binary ports
2019-08-03T22:04:53Z badkins: I assumed on a Unix-like OS that a socket could be opened, but maybe not.
2019-08-03T22:05:55Z Zipheir: I think virtually every Scheme non-trivial enough to have a POSIX library provides socket stuff.
2019-08-03T22:06:59Z Zipheir: and there's SRFI 170 now, so maybe things will start to homogenize, POSIX-wise.
2019-08-03T22:07:01Z badkins: Zipheir: true, but in my mind, an important goal of a standardization effort would allow, for example, a portable http server to be written in R7RS.
2019-08-03T22:07:27Z Zipheir: R7RS-large, maybe.
2019-08-03T22:08:22Z badkins: Zipheir: but jcowan said that R7RS-large was just libraries built upon the core language specified in "small" - I'm so confused
2019-08-03T22:08:26Z Zipheir: But you'd also need a standard position on concurrency for something like that, unless it were done entirely with fork()...
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2019-08-03T22:09:48Z badkins: I suffered through the "write once, run anywhere" phase of Java. Maybe it's just a pipe dream given the differences of operating systems, virtual machines, etc. - it always seems to lead me back to "choose an implementation that's the best fit"
2019-08-03T22:11:22Z badkins: Racket has everything I *currently* need. If it wasn't for the Racket2 shenanigans I probably wouldn't even be looking into standards.
2019-08-03T22:11:22Z Zipheir: badkins: c.f. https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ColorDockets.md
2019-08-03T22:12:03Z Zipheir: badkins: Some editions of R7RS-large will contain libraries that can't be implemented in pure R7RS-small Scheme.
2019-08-03T22:12:56Z badkins: Zipheir: that seems perfectly understandable. John probably just exaggerated a bit re: "everything is libraries" - it's probably more like "the emphasis is on libraries"
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2019-08-03T22:13:36Z Zipheir: badkins: Right, in contrast with R6, where it was a package deal.
2019-08-03T22:14:35Z badkins: I should really look into Racket's R7RS language a bit more. It might be a nice way to implement at least a portion of my app in a more portable way.
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2019-08-03T22:17:30Z wasamasa: as long as you keep it in a single file, yes
2019-08-03T22:18:10Z srandon111: guys why inn the world if i install racket i should also be shipped with drracket and a lot of other stuff which i won't use /
2019-08-03T22:18:11Z srandon111: ?
2019-08-03T22:18:39Z wasamasa: racket is a big toolbox, just like emacs
2019-08-03T22:19:27Z badkins: srandon111: unless you simply don't have the resources, it can be handy to occasionally pop into DrRacket for some of the features it provides, even if you spend most of your time in another editor.
2019-08-03T22:19:57Z aeth: badkins: What about Racket for servers, though?
2019-08-03T22:20:03Z badkins: I also wouldn't be too surprised if there was a way to get a smaller distribution; I just haven't looked into it.
2019-08-03T22:20:56Z badkins: aeth: 100% of my development is server-side - having DrRacket come along for the ride has never been an issue for me. It's a red herring IMO.
2019-08-03T22:22:25Z aeth: badkins: One of my on-the-shelf-for-now projects is r7rs-small-on-CL, which will in theory give you access to any Quicklisp library assuming someone wrote a minimal (and perhaps semi-automatable) wrapper, unless those libraries do something fancy, like using code-walking macros.
2019-08-03T22:22:27Z Zipheir: srandon111: Feel free to run s9fes if you want something tiny :)
2019-08-03T22:22:29Z badkins: I bet someone would answer pretty quickly about the possibility of a trimmed down distribution if you asked here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/racket-users  or in the #racket channel
2019-08-03T22:22:40Z aeth: badkins: Unfortunately, it isn't my active priority to complete it at the moment.
2019-08-03T22:22:48Z badkins: exactly :)
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2019-08-03T22:23:16Z badkins: oops - I associated your comment with a previous comment - sorry
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2019-08-03T22:50:36Z srandon111: Zipheir, what's that ?
2019-08-03T22:50:38Z srandon111: s9fes
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2019-08-03T22:59:00Z Zipheir: srandon111: Small and very clean scheme implementation https://t3x.org/s9fes
2019-08-03T22:59:18Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, it will probably be R4RS for all eternity.
2019-08-03T22:59:30Z srandon111: Zipheir, what's R4RS ?
2019-08-03T23:00:12Z Zipheir: srandon111: An old Scheme standard.  We're on R7RS now.
2019-08-03T23:00:24Z srandon111: ohh okok
2019-08-03T23:00:28Z srandon111: did it change a lot ?
2019-08-03T23:03:24Z Zipheir: srandon111: Yes.  The current version of the R7RS-small standard is here https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs/src/draft-10/rnrs/r7rs.pdf  The older standards are one the web, e.g. R6 http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs/r6rs.html and R5 https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2019-08-03T23:03:33Z Zipheir: R4's probably posted somewhere...
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2019-08-03T23:21:18Z aeth: r5rs is the first "modern" Scheme, but r4rs is close, especially with the (optional at the time?) hygienic macros (extension?)
2019-08-03T23:21:28Z aeth: Before that, you get something that's closer to a historic Lisp like CL afaik.
2019-08-03T23:21:37Z aeth: Scheme had some backwards compatibility breaking moments in its early years
2019-08-03T23:22:17Z aeth: (I mean "closer to a historic Lisp, like CL, ..." as in, it's closer to historic Lisps, like CL is, not that CL is historic!)
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2019-08-03T23:35:16Z srandon111: guys is there any way to set some sort of vim mode in drracket ?
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2019-08-03T23:39:58Z badkins: srandon111: https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/Vim.html
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2019-08-03T23:42:14Z srandon111: badkins, what about from drracket ?
2019-08-03T23:42:35Z badkins: ah, no clue - I'm an Emacs guy :)
2019-08-03T23:50:23Z Zipheir: aeth: Heh, I was about to jump on that...
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2019-08-04T00:17:15Z srandon111: guys what's the difference between a symbol and a string?
2019-08-04T00:21:41Z pjb: srandon111: symbols are "interned" and immutable.
2019-08-04T00:21:56Z pjb: (eq? 'foo 'foo) is guaranteed to return #t
2019-08-04T00:22:06Z pjb: (eq? "foo" "foo") may return #f
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2019-08-04T00:22:44Z pjb: (eq? (make-string 3 #\f) (make-string 3 #\f)) is guaranteed to return #f
2019-08-04T00:23:29Z pjb: (string-ref 'foo 1) doesn't work.
2019-08-04T00:23:29Z pjb: (string-ref "foo" 1) returns #\o
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2019-08-04T00:24:11Z srandon111: why physpi two strings may not be equal  ??
2019-08-04T00:24:40Z srandon111: pjb, ok but when do i use one or the other ?
2019-08-04T00:26:09Z pjb: srandon111: by reading the documentation of the operators (the functions) and seeing which functions works on what.
2019-08-04T00:26:33Z pjb: If you want to reference the characters inside the sequence, you will see that there's no symbol-ref but there's a string-ref. So you will use a string.
2019-08-04T00:27:09Z pjb: srandon111: I didn't write equal, but eq? !
2019-08-04T00:27:40Z pjb: The notion of interned is relative to the identity of the objects.
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2019-08-04T13:09:09Z srandon111: guys how can i ship racket applications ?
2019-08-04T13:09:15Z srandon111: i mean deploy them?
2019-08-04T13:09:27Z srandon111: also for GUI applications are there bindings to GTK/Qt ?
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2019-08-04T13:10:11Z wasamasa: raco exe
2019-08-04T13:10:28Z wasamasa: I doubt you'll get anything better than the built-in gui toolkit
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2019-08-04T15:45:04Z srandon111: wasamasa, why?
2019-08-04T15:45:18Z wasamasa: because it's good enough
2019-08-04T15:45:34Z wasamasa: it's going to be hard to compete with it
2019-08-04T15:46:40Z wasamasa: have you used it?
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2019-08-04T15:51:32Z srandon111: wasamasa, i tried something yes seems easy
2019-08-04T15:51:58Z wasamasa: that aside, they're using gtk2/3 these days
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2019-08-04T18:44:24Z srandon111: guys i amm learning scheme... and i have a doubt..can you help me with something? i was trying to implement as exercise a push function... i tried to do (define (push x list) '(list x)) so i would expect to pass two parameters and return a list with x appended to list but it doesn't work what am i doing wrong? 
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2019-08-04T18:46:00Z Riastradh: What it means to evaluate '(list x): return the literal list (list x), i.e. return the two-element list whose first element is the symbol `list' and whose second element is the symbol `x'.  Your procedure totally ignores its parameters.
2019-08-04T18:46:45Z Zipheir: srandon111: You don't need to ask to ask, the channel's tried to help you before.
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2019-08-04T18:48:48Z srandon111: ok Riastradh so basically something like this  (define (push x list) (list x)) should work right? but it doesnt
2019-08-04T18:48:59Z srandon111: when i try to do: (push 5 '(1 3 5))
2019-08-04T18:49:04Z srandon111: i get error message
2019-08-04T18:49:07Z Riastradh: Well, now you're taking the second argument, and applying it as if it were a procedure.
2019-08-04T18:49:33Z Riastradh: That's because the name you chose for the second argument, `list', coincides with the name for a standard procedure you might have meant to call.
2019-08-04T18:49:36Z srandon111: ohh ok Riastradh how can i just build a list with the passed parameters ?
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2019-08-04T18:50:14Z Zipheir: srandon111: sjamaan on #chicken answered your question.
2019-08-04T18:50:17Z srandon111: ok i changed to lst
2019-08-04T18:50:57Z srandon111: Zipheir, ok but what about wihtout using cons?
2019-08-04T18:51:11Z srandon111: how can i return back a list from a function with the passed arguments ?
2019-08-04T18:51:26Z srandon111: i mean concatenate two lists and return the result
2019-08-04T18:51:52Z Zipheir: You mean `append'?
2019-08-04T18:51:57Z Zipheir: (append xs ys)
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2019-08-04T19:09:01Z pjb: srandon111: (define (push x list) (cons x list))
2019-08-04T19:09:39Z pjb: srandon111: and then you can write: (let ((x 42) (list '(1 2 3))) (set! list (push x list)) list) -> (42 1 2 3)
2019-08-04T19:10:57Z pjb: srandon111: of course, if you feel it's silly, it's because it is! You would just write: (set! list (cons x list)) directly, without defining a new push function.
2019-08-04T19:11:57Z srandon111: pjb, wait i can do list(cons x list) and it works but if i do (cons list x) the behavior is different
2019-08-04T19:12:00Z srandon111: wtf ?
2019-08-04T19:12:18Z pjb: srandon111: You can do (- 4 5) or (- 5 4) and the result will be different.
2019-08-04T19:12:32Z pjb: so don't be an idiot, do what you need to do, and not the other thing!
2019-08-04T19:13:26Z srandon111: pjb, sorry... i don't want to be an idiot i think the confusion comes from the fact that i misunderstood cons...
2019-08-04T19:13:44Z pjb: srandon111: in general, functions are not commutative. The order of the arguments matter.
2019-08-04T19:14:26Z srandon111: i was thinking there was an easy way in scheme to build list together... so something like (cons a b)  builds a list with a (whatever it is ) and b and also if i did (cons b a) it was doing the same but with different order so now comes b before a
2019-08-04T19:14:30Z srandon111: pjb, i know that...
2019-08-04T19:14:38Z pjb: srandon111: in lisp, lists are built as a chain of cons cells ("pairs") but those cons cells ("pairs") are not used in a symetric way.  Instead, we store 1 element in the car, and the rest of the list in the cdr.
2019-08-04T19:14:45Z srandon111: but isn't there a simple tool to attach lists together with the order i want
2019-08-04T19:14:47Z pjb: so car = element, cdr = list of elements
2019-08-04T19:15:13Z pjb: therefore (cons car cdr) when used to build lists will produce a chain, not a tree.
2019-08-04T19:15:21Z pjb: (cons element rest-of-the-list) -> list
2019-08-04T19:15:49Z pjb: I was responding to the push question. Appending lists is something else.
2019-08-04T19:16:00Z pjb: push pushes a new ELEMENT onto an existing LIST.
2019-08-04T19:16:08Z pjb: so push = cons.
2019-08-04T19:16:25Z srandon111: ok pjb so pushing and appending are different... thanks... i didn't know...
2019-08-04T19:16:29Z srandon111: what about append then ?
2019-08-04T19:16:51Z pjb: srandon111: now, perhajps the problem is that you asked for a function.  Your push cannot be implemented as a function, it needs to be a macro, but to do it right, you need places like in Common Lisp.
2019-08-04T19:17:04Z pjb: srandon111: append concatenates lists.
2019-08-04T19:17:33Z pjb: Now, it's not entirely exact, since the last argument to append can be an atom, and append will then produce a dotted-list.
2019-08-04T19:17:34Z srandon111: sorry i am new to scheme and in general to lisp languages... that's why it confuses me... now i got it i think...
2019-08-04T19:17:42Z pjb: (append '(1 2 3) 4) -> (1 2 3 . 4)
2019-08-04T19:17:57Z srandon111: pjb, ok so i can do (append '(1 2 3) '(4))
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2019-08-04T19:18:02Z pjb: Yes.
2019-08-04T19:18:05Z srandon111: ok
2019-08-04T19:18:07Z srandon111: thanks a lot
2019-08-04T19:18:11Z srandon111: also for the patience
2019-08-04T19:18:13Z Zipheir: Hey, you got it!
2019-08-04T19:18:24Z srandon111: Zipheir, at the end yes !! ;)
2019-08-04T19:18:33Z pjb: If you want to append 1 element at the end of a list, you will need to wrap this 1 element in a list: (append old-list (list new-last-element))
2019-08-04T19:19:05Z pjb: srandon111: but we don't do that, because append has to copy the whole old-list, which takes O(n) time and O(n) space (n = (length list)), which quickly can become very bad.
2019-08-04T19:19:34Z pjb: So even if you wanted to add an element at the end of the list, you would instead use (cons new-last-element old-list), and use reverse! at the end to get the list in the right order.
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2019-08-04T19:20:07Z srandon111: ohh okok pjb thanks...
2019-08-04T19:20:35Z Zipheir: Usually reverse-at-the-end is frowned upon, but I suppose reverse! wouldn't be too terrible.
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2019-08-04T19:21:09Z srandon111: ok now in an ypothetical scenario where i would like to write a function which can take two lists or two values or one list and one value and build a single list out of these elements how should one proceed ?
2019-08-04T19:21:16Z pjb: Zipheir: there's no reason to frown upon it, it's very efficient.
2019-08-04T19:22:08Z Zipheir: Olin explicit says it's a bad idea (even when done destructively) in his SRFI 1 comments.
2019-08-04T19:22:48Z Zipheir: And Olin _does_ know an enormous amount about Scheme implementation, so I tend to accept his authority here.  "Don't stand on your head to iterate!" (SRFI 1)
2019-08-04T19:24:07Z pjb: Zipheir: and Bjarne Stroustrup says You Should Avoid Linked Lists! <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQs6IC-vgmo>
2019-08-04T19:24:18Z pjb: I'm saying: don't be an idiot!
2019-08-04T19:24:26Z Zipheir: Yeah, well, _he's_ an idiot. :)
2019-08-04T19:24:34Z pjb: :-)
2019-08-04T19:24:44Z pjb: But read his paper on the subject, he has arguments.
2019-08-04T19:26:22Z Zipheir: Shivers: "... this pattern of iterative computation followed by a reverse can frequently be rewritten as a recursion ... shifting temporary, intermediate storage from the heap to the stack, which is typically a win for reasons of cache locality and eager storage reclamation."
2019-08-04T19:27:36Z Riastradh: Zipheir: That's only kind of true.
2019-08-04T19:28:32Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I'm interested, can you elaborate?
2019-08-04T19:29:19Z Riastradh: Well, it works _reliably_ only if the stack depth is limited only by the heap size.
2019-08-04T19:30:09Z Zipheir: Right, but that may not be a good assumption.
2019-08-04T19:30:32Z Zipheir: s/but/and/
2019-08-04T19:31:18Z Riastradh: In Scheme48, there is a region of memory that you might call the `stack cache' where continuation frames are managed by push and pop.
2019-08-04T19:31:40Z Riastradh: Continuation frames are a little larger than pairs, but pop is cheaper than GC.
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2019-08-04T19:32:13Z Riastradh: So, _if_ the stack of continuations fits in the stack cache, what Olin said may be true.
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2019-08-04T19:33:12Z srandon111: Zipheir, why stroustrop is an idiot?
2019-08-04T19:33:13Z Zipheir: Right.  So your recursive function will work just fine until the stack blows up.
2019-08-04T19:33:20Z Riastradh: But if the stack cache overflows, then there's a little stop & copy GC that copies the continuation frames into the heap.
2019-08-04T19:33:53Z Zipheir: srandon111: I'm just joking around.  But then he did give us C++...
2019-08-04T19:34:04Z Riastradh: From there, it's hard to imagine that using continuation frames, rather than pairs, as intermediate storage is cheaper, because continuation frames are going to be a little bit larger -- if nothing else, each one needs to store three pointers (parent frame, return address, element) where a pair needs only two (car, cdr).
2019-08-04T19:35:23Z Zipheir: Yeah, intuitively pairs have got to be cheaper.
2019-08-04T19:35:31Z Riastradh: In Scheme48 the stack GC mainly serves for proper tail recursion: rather than overwriting a continuation frame in place, you just push a new one that points at the parent of the current frame; eventually the stack cache will over flow and the stack GC will clean up the dead continuation frames.
2019-08-04T19:35:48Z Riastradh: In MIT Scheme, there is no stack GC.  Instead, the interpreter overwrites frames in place, and the compiler generates code to overwrite frames in place.
2019-08-04T19:36:01Z dTal: Zipheir: I believe lack of TCO has time implications as well as space - specifically, it adds a extra linear factor, to deal with all the returns
2019-08-04T19:36:02Z Zipheir: Interesting
2019-08-04T19:36:04Z Riastradh: So the stack depth is actually limited to a region of memory called the stack.
2019-08-04T19:36:20Z Riastradh: That means if you try to map over a very very very long list using Olin's SRFI 1 code, it will simply crash.
2019-08-04T19:37:02Z Zipheir: Very interesting.
2019-08-04T19:37:30Z Zipheir: I suppose SRFI 1 may have some portability issues when handling very big lists.
2019-08-04T19:37:46Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Thanks for the detailed answer!
2019-08-04T19:37:58Z Riastradh: (car (filter integer? (iota 10000)))
2019-08-04T19:37:58Z Riastradh: ;Value: 0
2019-08-04T19:37:58Z Riastradh: (car (filter integer? (iota 100000)))
2019-08-04T19:37:58Z Riastradh: ;Aborting!: maximum recursion depth exceeded
2019-08-04T19:38:31Z Riastradh: (I used filter because MIT Scheme's map does not use Olin's code.  We should really fix filter too.)
2019-08-04T19:38:50Z Riastradh: (...and...everything else that was imported wholesale from his code.)
2019-08-04T19:39:52Z Zipheir: Hah.  The CHICKEN copy of SRFI 1 has a comment (probably from Felix): "Olin, I'm sick of fixing your stupid bugs!"
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2019-08-04T19:45:06Z Zipheir: In my earliest Scheme days I assumed tail recursion was the Holy Grail and created a terrible mess trying to convert every recursive algorithm.  But vanilla recursion is a beautiful thing and not lightly to be thrown aside.  I'd certainly use it unless very large structures were anticipated.
2019-08-04T19:45:29Z Riastradh: Bounded-depth recursion is great.
2019-08-04T19:45:56Z Riastradh: Unbounded lazy recursion is also great.
2019-08-04T19:46:05Z Riastradh: Unbounded-depth eager recursion, not so much.
2019-08-04T19:46:11Z Zipheir: Yes.
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2019-08-04T19:51:41Z amz3: nanopass code has some non-tail recursive procedures
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2019-08-04T19:52:01Z amz3: I am not sure why, naturally I would have written those in tail recursive manner
2019-08-04T19:52:31Z amz3: I mean the code that rely on nanopass, I did not read nanopass framework code yet
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2019-08-04T20:17:14Z astronavt: how did MIT scheme come to be part of GNU? is there anything written on that?
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2019-08-04T20:23:42Z dTal: Surprisingly hard to find info on that. This page said it happened in 2001: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/MitSlashGnuScheme
2019-08-04T20:24:41Z Riastradh: Probably had something to do with the placement of rms's office adjacent to cph's.
2019-08-04T20:25:31Z dTal: One might search various pertinent homepages from around 2001 on archive.org
2019-08-04T20:29:42Z erkin: GNU maintain quite a few Lisps, don't they? MIT Scheme, Kawa, CLISP, GCL, Emacs Lisp, Guile, SCM...
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2019-08-04T20:43:59Z CORDIC: epsilon.
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2019-08-04T21:22:55Z amz3: mes
2019-08-04T21:24:21Z erkin: That makes it nine!
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2019-08-04T22:16:55Z badkins: I was looking at the "Packages" page for Gambit Scheme here: http://gambitscheme.org/wiki/index.php/Packages  The first package system listed is Snow. The "Snow" link seems dead - is it working for anyone else?
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2019-08-04T22:52:13Z jcowan: Snow is dead, long live Snow!  It's something related but different now; see snow-fort.org.  I don't think any of the old packages were carried over, though.
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2019-08-04T23:13:51Z gwatt: akku looks like a good package source. weinholt has done work to make it functional for r6rs and r7rs.
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2019-08-04T23:32:11Z jcowan: Indeed.
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2019-08-05T00:31:00Z amz3: I use it in arew
2019-08-05T00:31:28Z amz3: I mean the akku-r7rs provide R7RS-small
2019-08-05T00:31:45Z amz3: and prolly at some point cond-expand
2019-08-05T00:32:52Z Zipheir: (cond-expand (cond-expand ; oh, wait...
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2019-08-05T01:39:59Z Riastradh: \expandafter{(cond-expand}(cond-expand ...) ...)
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2019-08-05T13:41:10Z amz3: seems like there is not srfi for hooks. Is there an implementation of hooks outside guile?
2019-08-05T13:41:15Z amz3: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Hook-Example.html#Hook-Example
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2019-08-05T14:38:46Z jcowan: amz3: Interesting idea.  I'll take a further look.
2019-08-05T14:39:48Z jcowan: Basically an application of SRFI 117 (list queues)
2019-08-05T14:43:30Z jcowan: run-hook is the only one without a direct equivalent, I think.
2019-08-05T14:44:04Z dTal: See, this is why I don't get tattoos. I was thinking a small tattoo of a lambda might be a cool way to celebrate functional programming and lisp
2019-08-05T14:44:42Z dTal: turns out that such a tattoo has a meaning altogether unrelated to lambda calculus...
2019-08-05T14:44:44Z jcowan: (define (run-hook hook . args) (for-each (lambda (x) (apply x args)) (list-queue-list hook)))
2019-08-05T14:45:16Z jcowan: Well, what do you expect?  If you get a tattoo "X", what does that mean?  Almost anything.  Single-letter tattoos are going to be overloaded in the nature of things.
2019-08-05T14:45:25Z amz3: dTal: I dream a [poet] tatoo and another [koder] tatoo
2019-08-05T14:46:55Z dTal: ooh, that's a nice idea actually - a tattoo of an 'X' is *so* ambiguous that no one could possibly read anything into it!
2019-08-05T14:47:25Z amz3: using IPA
2019-08-05T14:47:29Z erkin: Unless it's a common prison tattoo.
2019-08-05T14:47:59Z amz3: like [pɔ.ɛt]
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2019-08-05T14:59:10Z amz3: dTal: what does lambda mean for you outside lisp and lambda calculus?
2019-08-05T14:59:36Z dTal: a greek letter 'L'
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2019-08-05T15:00:41Z dTal: wavelength, I suppose
2019-08-05T15:00:54Z jcowan: The symbol of gay liberation.
2019-08-05T15:01:26Z dTal: it doesn't mean that to *me*, but it does to some evidently
2019-08-05T15:01:31Z amz3: in french we see "lambda personne" to say "a random person"
2019-08-05T15:01:47Z amz3: s/see/say/
2019-08-05T15:02:53Z weinholt: the game half-life uses it
2019-08-05T15:04:31Z gwatt: dTal: you could get a lambda calculus expression: (λx.x x)(λx.x x)
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2019-08-05T15:47:16Z jcowan: amz3: I'm not sure that non-persistent validation with hooks would be much use for OKVS.
2019-08-05T15:47:32Z TCZ: sup? xd
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2019-08-05T15:54:16Z amz3: jcowan: you think that stored procedures are required?
2019-08-05T15:54:43Z jcowan: Yes, though it could be stored as Scheme source.
2019-08-05T15:55:01Z jcowan: But to store it in the OKVS limits the freedom of the user to choose *any* primary key
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2019-08-05T16:02:22Z amz3: I seems to me what I have in mind works with stored procedures, I will try to make a demo of it
2019-08-05T16:03:40Z amz3: that said, I always expected the code to travel with the data, and maybe store some metadata (data about data) in the database that will help the validation procedure whatever the code base (but that would still require the code base to be able to operate on the metadata)
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2019-08-05T18:36:22Z xi-: hi, I'm using chibi scheme embedded in C, I define a foreign function with one argument that's supposed to be a string and I call it from a function that I call using sexp_apply. However, when the C function is called, it's called with a 0x1 pointer instead of the argument. Can somebody give me any potential reason for this behaviour? Thank you.
2019-08-05T18:38:21Z amz3: hello xi-, try the mailing list if you get no answer, also a snippet of code will be helpful.
2019-08-05T18:39:25Z xi-: thank you, the code is a bit of a mess but I'll create a gist with the important parts
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2019-08-06T05:46:07Z galdor: I'm confused by the R7RS formal grammar: it is said that READ returns <datum> (7.1.2), but multiples sections, e.g. 7.1.6 for programs, describe larger constructions that are not defined from <datum> but directly use <identifier>
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2019-08-06T05:47:36Z galdor: I thought <program> were parsed by calling READ repeatedly and interpreting the sequence of data, but it seems more complicated than that
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2019-08-06T10:05:23Z amz3: the schedule o the scheme workshop was published https://thomas.gilray.org/scheme-2019/
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2019-08-06T10:24:25Z amz3: Andy Keep (the creator of nanopass) will give a key note :D
2019-08-06T10:25:00Z ecraven: nice! I hope that is streamed
2019-08-06T10:25:11Z ecraven: or better yet, just recorded and published ;)
2019-08-06T10:25:43Z amz3: past event were recorded
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2019-08-06T10:58:00Z jcowan: galdor: <datum> and <expression> are the same thing from the external and internal points of view, so hopefully they are extensionally exactly the same set of strings.
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2019-08-06T13:18:32Z galdor: yup this part is clearly indicated, but the grammar makes me feel there are two levels of parsing, and it is not clear to me how these levels interact
2019-08-06T13:19:26Z galdor: I used to feel I'd "just" have to write a reader, but built upon it, but the mix of external and internal representations makes me feel I missed something
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2019-08-06T13:36:51Z adu: what do you mean external and internal?
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2019-08-06T14:04:17Z galdor: external as defined in 7.1.2 External representations, i.e. what READ parses
2019-08-06T14:05:00Z galdor: and internal (which is of course not the right term) for the parts of the grammar which deal with higher level constructs such as 7.1.6 Programs and definitions
2019-08-06T14:05:31Z galdor: there seem to be at least two layers of grammar, and I don't understand how they actually relate
2019-08-06T14:07:18Z pjb: galdor: it's a difficult question: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139933
2019-08-06T14:08:53Z pjb: galdor: basicaly, the external grammar is a mathematical being that instructs you how to manipulate the physical world accessible by the computer so that the "data structures" described by the internal grammar are constructed when "reading" the external "representation".
2019-08-06T14:09:51Z pjb: galdor: the "data structures" are actually mathematical being reflecting and describing the mutation of the physical world inside the computer that has been directed by the "data" obtained when "reading" and "parsing" the "external representation".
2019-08-06T14:10:37Z pjb: galdor: or you can just take the simplified explanation that doesn't explain anything.  Text -(reading)-> cons -(compiling) -> binary code.
2019-08-06T14:11:01Z pjb: https://www.xkcd.com/722/
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2019-08-06T14:39:45Z galdor: that was an interesting read
2019-08-06T14:42:32Z galdor: I believe the tricky part in your simplification is the reading; it took me some time to realize that thinking in term of reader that reads objects from a port instead of the usual lexer/parser run on a file makes things a lot easier
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2019-08-06T14:43:33Z galdor: the fact that the whole process seems circular was confusing at first, but it seems to make sense: the only catch is that you need to define scheme stuff (ports, datum definitions, etc.) before even reading it
2019-08-06T14:43:37Z galdor: but it is interesting
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2019-08-06T14:49:12Z jcowan: Lisp is all about teh circularity, after all.
2019-08-06T14:49:45Z jcowan: I learned Lisp from reading the definitions and sample implementations of procedures in the DTSS Lisp manual.
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2019-08-06T14:51:57Z pjb: galdor: this is how we get code = data.  Lisp code is not written using a code syntax, but using a data syntax. Imagine writing C program using only {} literals and commas.  code_t code = {"int","main",{{"int","argc"},{"char","*",'*","argv"}},{"printf",{,"%d","argc",},"return",0}} ;
2019-08-06T14:52:27Z pjb: this is exactly what we do in lisp, thanks to the addition of the symbol type, and using lists for every kind of grouping.
2019-08-06T14:53:44Z pjb: Then this data can be read, parsed and compiled by the compiler, or read and directly evaluated by an interpreter. OR... and this is the point of the whole thing, read and processoed by your own meta-programming code! including macros.
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2019-08-06T14:59:43Z Zipheir: I think the question was a more specific one about how external and internal representations relate in the formal grammar.
2019-08-06T15:09:08Z Zipheir: galdor: I don't have experience implementing a Scheme from the grammar, but, IIUC, you're right.  A <datum> is a Scheme (data) object, and an <expression> is that object parsed as Scheme, rather than as "just data".
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2019-08-06T15:14:13Z Zipheir: galdor: So when read "converts external representations of Scheme objects into the objects themselves", it's parsing input as <datum>.  It's eval that parses the resulting object as an expression.
2019-08-06T15:14:48Z Zipheir: But what do I know?
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2019-08-06T15:29:19Z Zipheir: I guess the homoiconicity of Lisp really hits home when you see the non-terminals for data and expressions describing the exact same string.
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2019-08-06T16:55:24Z galdor: I believe eval is the step after that
2019-08-06T16:56:23Z galdor: I seem to be coming to terms with a phase to read sequence of data from files, then one phase parsing higher-level constructions into a <program>
2019-08-06T16:56:53Z galdor: and after that, possibly macro expansion, referenced data resolution, etc. I haven't fully read about these aspects
2019-08-06T16:57:07Z galdor: there's some specific semantic about LOAD/INCLUDE too
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2019-08-06T17:11:30Z jcowan: load is just read, eval, read, eval
2019-08-06T17:12:06Z jcowan: whereas include operates causes the included file to be effectively incorporated into the current input.
2019-08-06T17:14:45Z pjb: (defun include (file) (load file)) #.(include "header.lisp") ;-)
2019-08-06T17:14:57Z pjb: Oops, sorry.
2019-08-06T17:14:59Z pjb: wrong channel.
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2019-08-06T17:19:04Z jcowan: I'm working on a binary serialization format for Lisps based on ASN.1 DER
2019-08-06T17:21:31Z jcowan: Here are the types I currently know about: boolean, integer, bit string, (), enum, string, 8601 date/time, 8601 duration, vector, set, list, improper list, fraction, complex, hashtable, record, multiset, numeric vector, range (upper:lower), character, keyword, IEEE float, eof-object.
2019-08-06T17:21:51Z jcowan:   Can anyone think of suitable additions (or omissions)?  It is a given that in some Lisps some of these will overlap, such as binary false and () in CL, or lists and sets in implementations without sets.
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2019-08-06T17:22:25Z gwatt: what about fasl?
2019-08-06T17:22:48Z jcowan: Isn't that implementation-dependent?
2019-08-06T17:23:25Z gwatt: Maybe, I'm not sure.
2019-08-06T17:24:09Z gwatt: the black hole object: #0=#0#
2019-08-06T17:25:51Z gwatt: symbols
2019-08-06T17:26:56Z pjb: with package qualification.
2019-08-06T17:27:00Z pjb: and structures.
2019-08-06T17:27:32Z pjb: Of course, you need a way to extend it for customer objects.
2019-08-06T17:30:06Z Tirifto: Hello! Quick question: a variable which occurs free in a lambda expression is one the expression does not take as an argument, right?
2019-08-06T17:34:06Z pjb: or binds inside an inner let or lambda.
2019-08-06T17:34:23Z pjb: (lambda (x) (let ((y (+ x x))) (list x y z)))  only z is free.
2019-08-06T17:35:02Z pjb: But of course: (lambda (x) (list y (let ((y (+ x x))) (list x y z)))) there are two y references, one is free, another is bound.
2019-08-06T17:38:36Z Riastradh: gwatt: `fasl' is not a particular format; it is a general term for `a file that can be loaded faster than source code'.
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2019-08-06T17:44:52Z Tirifto: pjb: Thank you! In the first example expression, is the x free within only the scope of let (since it's bound outside in the lambda)?
2019-08-06T17:46:22Z Riastradh: jcowan: What is this a list of?
2019-08-06T17:46:56Z jcowan: Datatypes that can be represented in ASN.1 DER (slightly modified) as extended by me for the needs of the Lisp languages.
2019-08-06T17:47:44Z Riastradh: What data structures are _not_ covered by that?  What _can't_ you encode in DER with an appropriate ASN.1 schema?
2019-08-06T17:48:54Z jcowan: Nothing, in principle:  ASN.1 is indefinitely extensible.  But these are the ones that seem useful to me.
2019-08-06T17:49:02Z Riastradh: Useful for what applications?
2019-08-06T17:50:02Z jcowan: I think it would be better than the similar non-standard marshaling of SRFI 168, for one thing, which is meant to be layered over key-value stores where both keys and values are bytestrings.
2019-08-06T17:50:23Z Riastradh: I mean what specific applications actually benefit from this?
2019-08-06T17:50:53Z rain2: cba logging into stack exchange but someone fix this pls
2019-08-06T17:50:55Z jcowan: s/similar/similar but
2019-08-06T17:51:09Z Riastradh: rain2: ?
2019-08-06T17:51:10Z rain2: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/57376279/
2019-08-06T17:51:18Z rain2: all answers are wrong
2019-08-06T17:51:48Z Riastradh: rain2: Why do you say that?
2019-08-06T17:52:15Z rain2: imo there is no lambda term that you can replace call/cc with
2019-08-06T17:52:54Z Riastradh: No, but there is a global transformation you can apply to a program that maps programs in a language with call/cc to programs in a language without call/cc (and otherwise the same language) which preserves semantics.
2019-08-06T17:53:55Z Riastradh: And, of course, under that transformation -- conversion to CPS -- you can define call/cc to be (lambda (k f) (f k (lambda (k* v) (k v)))).
2019-08-06T17:53:58Z rain2: does this transformation force an evaluation order
2019-08-06T17:54:14Z jcowan: Usually, but it's not a requirement.
2019-08-06T17:54:16Z pjb: In (lambda (x) (let ((y (+ x x))) (list x y z)))  there are 3 references to x. They're all bound by the lambda list (x) of the lambda expression.
2019-08-06T17:54:22Z pjb: Tirifto: ^
2019-08-06T17:54:40Z Riastradh: rain2: It can, or with some additional work -- to use a graph- rather than tree-structured language -- it need not.
2019-08-06T17:55:49Z pjb: Tirifto: you need to distinguish the occurences of x. Some are in binding forms such as (lambda (x) …) or (let ((x …) …) …)  and the other are references.  A reference in an expression considered by itself,that doesn't refer an enclosing binding form is a free reference.
2019-08-06T17:56:56Z pjb: Tirifto: so if in  (lambda (x) (let ((y (+ x x))) (list x y z))) you consider only (+ x x), then here the two x references are free. But if you consider the whole lambda form (lambda (x) (let ((y (+ x x))) (list x y z))) the two x references in (+ x x) are bound by the lambda (x) binding.
2019-08-06T17:57:04Z jcowan: Riastradh: Ones, I suppose, that wish to use key-value stores where the keys and values are Scheme objects, or sequences of them.
2019-08-06T17:57:50Z Riastradh: jcowan: Are you imagining fantasy applications that don't exist, or are you catering to real specific application needs?
2019-08-06T17:57:58Z jcowan: Neither.
2019-08-06T17:58:17Z Riastradh: What, then?
2019-08-06T17:58:49Z jcowan: What *specific* applications did Sussman and Steele have in mind, and are they relevant today?
2019-08-06T17:59:00Z Tirifto: pjb: Ah, I think I understand then. Thanks again! :)
2019-08-06T17:59:52Z Riastradh: They were studying the Planner interpreter, and recognized that there was a duplicate chunk of code in the interpreter and they removed the duplication and got something a lot simpler.
2019-08-06T18:00:27Z rain2: I miss the days when people actively worked on symbolic AI
2019-08-06T18:01:15Z Riastradh: There were plenty of applications of Lisp at the time, and this was all about studying (and simplifying) the structure of the implementation of the language.
2019-08-06T18:03:24Z Riastradh: Are there applications which do something poorly, and which this would clearly improve?
2019-08-06T18:04:03Z Riastradh: (I don't mean abstract toy libraries that could in principle be used by applications; I mean applications that actually have real data to store.)
2019-08-06T18:04:06Z jcowan: That depends on if you think an application written in Scheme has any advantages over one written in Python or JavaScript or some other unLisp.
2019-08-06T18:04:24Z Riastradh: Why do you say that?
2019-08-06T18:05:31Z Riastradh: Are you suggesting that this be used in the place of, say, Python pickle, which is notoriously unreliable and a consistent vector for attacks and generally a bad idea for applications to ever use?
2019-08-06T18:05:55Z jcowan: If you don't, then there's not much point in using Scheme at all; it's a niche language without a niche.  If you do, even in principle, then the WG2 charcter kicks in: we are to provide "a language that embodies the essential character of Scheme, that is large enough to address the practical needs of mainstream software development, and that can be extended and integrated with other systems"
2019-08-06T18:06:06Z Riastradh: Or in the place of, say, json, which is widely used as an interchange format in many applications which a custom ASN.1 scheme wouldn't help to interoperate with?
2019-08-06T18:06:22Z jcowan: Certainly not JSON.  I don't know anything about pickle.
2019-08-06T18:06:43Z Riastradh: OK, I don't follow the comparison to Python or JavaScript, then?
2019-08-06T18:07:45Z jcowan: I chose them more or less random as languages that are thought to address the practical needs etc.
2019-08-06T18:09:19Z jcowan: One thing worth saying is that ASN.1 implementations are notoriously buggy, but I don't think they have to be.
2019-08-06T18:09:23Z Riastradh: So, for comparison, I can point to lots of applications that use sqlite3, lots of applications that use protobufs, even some applications that use ASN.1 (with an application-specific, not language-dependent, schema).
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2019-08-06T18:10:08Z jcowan: And I hope there will be a sqlite3 library and a CapnProto library, though I don't feel competent to write them just yet.
2019-08-06T18:10:11Z Riastradh: These applications are grounded in human-relevant activity, like storing an index of email to look up, like communicating across the network with different versions of software, &c.
2019-08-06T18:10:50Z Riastradh: So there's lots of particular experience that would motivate, e.g., a sqlite3 binding, or a protobuf schema compiler and API.
2019-08-06T18:11:04Z jcowan points to the Json Encoding Rules for ASN.1
2019-08-06T18:11:37Z Riastradh: What motivates a custom language-specific ASN.1 DER encoding that, by construction, no applications today use?
2019-08-06T18:11:53Z jcowan: I got started on this when I was introduced to modern ACIDy ordered key-value stores by amz3, and I wanted to explore the possibilities of using
2019-08-06T18:11:55Z jcowan: them.
2019-08-06T18:12:42Z jcowan: However, Scheme maps aren't bytevector:bytevector, they are Scheme object:Scheme object.  So something is needed to marshal Scheme objects as bytevectors and unmarshal them again.  That's the glue I'm trying to put together.
2019-08-06T18:12:59Z Riastradh: OK, but what do applications actually store in these data stores?
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2019-08-06T18:14:13Z Riastradh: You're starting from the premise that there's some big disjoint union type that Scheme is built out of, and that there should be a single total function from that disjoint union type to bytevectors for the purpose of storing data; I'm asking what specific application goals that might serve which would justify enumerating everything in the union.
2019-08-06T18:14:18Z jcowan: Grr.  Googling on "persistent" gets a random mix of the two senses.  But if it's necessary to persist a large-scale mpa, this is one way to do it.
2019-08-06T18:14:28Z Riastradh: mpa?
2019-08-06T18:14:48Z jcowan: map.  I think the IWW (= One Big Union) assumption is pretty commonplace.
2019-08-06T18:16:03Z Riastradh: At least the Wobblies could point to specific abuses of the working class in the system of wage slavery they banded together to fight!
2019-08-06T18:16:03Z jcowan: SRFI 168 provides a sort of simple Datalog store on top of ordered KV stores, Datomic with only ground facts (so far).  It has its own marshaling convention which is documented only by the sample implementation.  That seems bad to me
2019-08-06T18:16:46Z Riastradh: OK, but what applications of SRFI 168 are there, and what actual data do they store?
2019-08-06T18:17:03Z jcowan: It isn't even finalized yet.  It may flop.  I'm okay with that.
2019-08-06T18:17:30Z jcowan: (It's my life I have to spend, no one else's.)
2019-08-06T18:17:40Z Riastradh: As soon as you put nontrivial mutable objects in it, or objects with a context-dependent interpretation like file descriptors, the meaning strays into nonsensical territory.
2019-08-06T18:18:16Z Riastradh: So, rather than try to plot a path through that territory, why not start with applications that have some realistic motivation to do it, or hold off until you have them?
2019-08-06T18:18:50Z jcowan: You'll note that none of those are in the list.  I should make it clear that there is no distinction here between mutable and immutable objects: you can marshal either kind and unmarshal to either kind.
2019-08-06T18:19:14Z jcowan: Ars longa, vita brevis.
2019-08-06T18:20:33Z jcowan: I don't have that much more time to wait.
2019-08-06T18:20:55Z Riastradh: Often applications _do_ put objects with context-dependent interpretation like file descriptors inside application-specific record types.
2019-08-06T18:23:30Z jcowan: And then serialize them?
2019-08-06T18:24:04Z Riastradh: Well, not with the custom ASN.1 DER encoding you haven't defined yet, no!
2019-08-06T18:26:29Z Riastradh: But that's just what I'm asking: what are the applications that _do_ want to store data in some automatic language-dependent form, but either (a) do it badly now, or (b) do something else that is a worse choice for some reason?
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2019-08-06T18:30:25Z jcowan: No, I meant "at all".  Why serialize a fd, when it makes sense only to this process and its fork-family?
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2019-08-06T18:35:30Z Riastradh: I'm not saying it makes sense or doesn't make sense for any particular application.  I'm asking what real-world experience is grounding the motivation to pursue this notion of a custom ASN.1 DER format for various Scheme objects at all in the first place.
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2019-08-06T18:43:12Z rain2: use s-expressions
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2019-08-06T18:51:43Z jcowan: S-expressions are both incomplete and verbose.
2019-08-06T18:52:27Z jcowan: I could extend S-expressions to handle everything, or take advantage of #., but the extensibility story here seems better to me.
2019-08-06T18:53:15Z rain2: what's the extensibility?
2019-08-06T18:53:27Z rain2: it's true s-expressions are not complete, I would like a fix for that
2019-08-06T18:54:55Z jcowan: For example, there is no S-expression representation for sets or bags.  The #. (SRFI 10 in Scheme) hack can provide one, but no portable implementation is possible without replacing read/write.
2019-08-06T18:55:23Z jcowan: CL has a representation for records because it provides reflection on them, but SRFI 9 / R7RS do not.
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2019-08-06T18:59:02Z rain2: IIRC r5rs and r7rs dont have sets or bags?
2019-08-06T18:59:30Z rain2: it's a bit of a shame that we can't write and read back records
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2019-08-06T19:19:02Z gwatt: asdfasdf
2019-08-06T19:19:52Z gwatt: jcowan: r6rs provides reflection, but also allows records to opt out.
2019-08-06T19:20:28Z jcowan: True.
2019-08-06T19:20:40Z jcowan: r7rs-large has sets and bags
2019-08-06T19:20:51Z jcowan: and hash tables and lots of other things
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2019-08-06T19:42:20Z amz3: lots of other things :)
2019-08-06T19:44:10Z amz3: re: symbolic ai, it would be nice to have more that.
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2019-08-07T01:16:01Z lockywolf: What's the difference between (let and (parameterize ?
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2019-08-07T01:26:57Z Zipheir: let does lexical binding, parameterize does dynamic.
2019-08-07T01:31:16Z Zipheir: (Of course, in parameterize deals with parameter objects.  But that's the basic idea.)
2019-08-07T01:31:23Z Zipheir: s/ in//
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2019-08-07T03:03:36Z Zipheir: lockywolf: Did you figure out parameterize vs. let?
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2019-08-07T03:47:38Z mdhughes: jcowan: I use serialization all the time, currently I've got my own custom JSON parser, but it only handles certain types. A full ASN.1 would be useful for storing more types. Records are a big problem, Chicken and some others have custom read/write methods.
2019-08-07T03:48:42Z mdhughes: Riastradh's dislike of Python pickle is misplaced; it's not a good long-term storage system, but it's very very commonly used for saving app state.
2019-08-07T03:49:40Z mdhughes: I'd prefer a full read/write system, though. A registry of read/write methods for each type, so you can serialize anything.
2019-08-07T03:52:01Z mdhughes: #,() works for reading, but there's no equivalent for writing, is there?
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2019-08-07T05:11:03Z lockywolf: Zipheir, yes, I did. Thanks.
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2019-08-07T05:55:56Z lockywolf: I wrote a couple of small patches for Emacs Geiser, to better support Chibi Scheme.
2019-08-07T05:57:22Z lockywolf: (parametrize) is used there to intercept the output of forms and send it back to Emacs.
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2019-08-07T06:23:06Z Elronnd: does anyone know of something like glm for scheme?
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2019-08-07T06:37:09Z lockywolf: Elronnd, what's glm?
2019-08-07T06:37:23Z Elronnd: open(gl) (m)ath
2019-08-07T06:37:32Z Elronnd: basically just linearl algebra--vectors, matrices, quaternions
2019-08-07T06:37:50Z Elronnd: probably other stuff too but that's what I care about
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2019-08-07T06:42:44Z lockywolf: http://snow-fort.org/pkg
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2019-08-07T06:44:54Z Elronnd: lockywolf: talking about determinant?  That looks like it only does matrices
2019-08-07T06:45:20Z aeth: davexunit might know, or in general #lispgames but that's mostly in Common Lisp
2019-08-07T06:45:21Z Elronnd: if nothing already exists no biggy, I can make it, but I do need vectors and quats
2019-08-07T06:45:40Z Elronnd: yeah, I know there's stuff in cl but I gave up on trying to embed that
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2019-08-07T06:46:24Z aeth: afaik davexunit is the only Scheme regular in #lispgames and works in Guile
2019-08-07T06:46:33Z aeth: there are some people making engines in Chicken and Racket, too.
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2019-08-07T06:49:27Z lockywolf_: Chibi is a really great scheme.
2019-08-07T06:50:11Z Elronnd: I'm using s7 atm
2019-08-07T06:50:16Z Elronnd: Forget why I chose it over chibi
2019-08-07T06:52:33Z lockywolf_: What's s7?
2019-08-07T06:54:31Z Elronnd: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/s7.html
2019-08-07T06:54:59Z lockywolf_: looks cool
2019-08-07T06:55:19Z Elronnd: it is!
2019-08-07T06:57:25Z lockywolf_: There is some mathematics in slib
2019-08-07T06:59:17Z Zipheir: There's also Siskind's linear algebra library from Qobi Scheme https://github.com/abarbu/linear-algebra  (that's the CHICKEN port)
2019-08-07T07:00:40Z Elronnd: Zipheir: thanks!  That will work very nicely
2019-08-07T07:03:19Z Zipheir: The determinant code can be pulled out sort of cleanly.
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2019-08-07T09:52:01Z lockywolf__: What does (begin ) do with output?
2019-08-07T09:52:27Z lockywolf__: I seem to not be able to (display thing) within an explicit (begin) body.
2019-08-07T09:54:55Z rain2: it returns 0 values
2019-08-07T09:55:00Z rain2: most expressions return 1 value
2019-08-07T09:59:10Z lockywolf__: I don't understand.
2019-08-07T09:59:40Z rain2: do you know (values 'a 'b) returns 2 values
2019-08-07T10:00:02Z lockywolf__: I am bad at continuations. :(
2019-08-07T10:00:16Z lockywolf__: Thanks for pointing out though.
2019-08-07T10:01:14Z rain2: what is being said about continuations
2019-08-07T10:02:37Z lockywolf__: What does (values) have to do with (begin)?
2019-08-07T10:02:58Z rain2: lets do one question at time
2019-08-07T10:03:38Z lockywolf__: I didn't ask anything about (values)
2019-08-07T10:04:18Z lockywolf__: My only question is how to make (display) work inside (begin).
2019-08-07T10:04:40Z dTal: it does work
2019-08-07T10:05:08Z dTal: (begin (display "hi")) displays "hi"
2019-08-07T10:05:12Z rain2: oh when you write (begin) you actually mean something totally different
2019-08-07T10:05:34Z dTal: your problem must be a bug somewhere else
2019-08-07T10:06:04Z rain2: show your actual code
2019-08-07T10:07:38Z amz3: +1
2019-08-07T10:08:49Z lockywolf__: https://pastebin.com/8Tk39EQ2
2019-08-07T10:10:45Z rain2: that code looks correct
2019-08-07T10:11:33Z lockywolf__: In my setup it only prints "Node\nRecursionOut"
2019-08-07T10:12:01Z rain2: that's strange, what input did you use?
2019-08-07T10:12:16Z lockywolf__: A tree.
2019-08-07T10:12:27Z rain2: you don't want me to be able to reproduce the bug
2019-08-07T10:12:35Z lockywolf__: Hang on.
2019-08-07T10:12:47Z lockywolf__: I'm just making an mwe
2019-08-07T10:15:01Z amz3: mwe?
2019-08-07T10:15:58Z lockywolf__: minimal working example
2019-08-07T10:16:49Z lockywolf__: Hm. My setup seems to be wrong in some place, not scheme. Thanks to everyone who tried to help.
2019-08-07T10:17:21Z lockywolf__: (tree-walker (cons 'a 'b)) works as expected if I run scheme from the terminal.
2019-08-07T10:18:01Z lockywolf__: So the problem must be not with (if or (begin.
2019-08-07T10:19:50Z jcowan: mdhughes: SRFI 10 doesn't provide any mapping from internal types back to external, no, though such a thing could be written.
2019-08-07T10:21:54Z jcowan: I consider SRFI 10 very unsatisfactory.  For one thing, because it can't be used reliably in code because of the phasing problem: new syntaxes can only be introduced at run time, whereas they are needed before run time when the compiler or interpreter is inputting the code.
2019-08-07T10:22:09Z jcowan: CL solves this sort of thing with eval-when, but the cure is worse than the disease.
2019-08-07T10:22:21Z jcowan: I'm continuing to think about some ideas for a (very partial) solution.
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2019-08-07T10:46:35Z lockywolf__: What can lead to (current-output-port) being #<undef>?
2019-08-07T10:49:11Z lockywolf__: This is a continuation of my previous question. If I return by making the last expression (current-output-port) from a defun, it is returned as #<Output-Port 139664445828704>. Whereas if I make try to make (begin (let (temp (current-output-port)) temp )) the last expression, the return value is #<undef>
2019-08-07T10:50:03Z lockywolf__: Under what circumstances may (begin) unbind whatever (current-output-port) is using?
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2019-08-07T11:21:45Z lockywolf_: Indeed, (begin) seems to be blocking (display) in my case. Weird.
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2019-08-07T11:34:39Z lockywolf_: How does "(do" work?
2019-08-07T11:36:51Z lockywolf_: I mean, how do I write "expressions" in the <step>?
2019-08-07T11:41:47Z lockywolf_: Okay, I seems to have worked around it. (begin) blocks (display) for whatever reason I don't know, but (do) doesn't, and since I can do sequencing with (do), I wouldn't care about (begin).
2019-08-07T11:41:56Z lockywolf_: Still, this looks very-very weird.
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2019-08-07T15:56:21Z mdhughes: jcowan: Most of the time you'll be receiving any external data from a file or network stream, long after the program starts, so you have time to set a read "ctor" (but an awful name). So on read side it's fine for a lot of uses. Just providing write symmetry would be a good step.
2019-08-07T16:02:25Z jcowan: In that case, yes, it works.  But not in code, unless you have the capability to run SRFI 10 constructors in the compiler.
2019-08-07T16:03:46Z jcowan: A low-level macro could do that, provided it is run in the same environment as the compiler (which is not actually required).
2019-08-07T16:17:04Z ecraven: hm.. so will racket2 not be a lisp any longer, without s-expressions?
2019-08-07T16:21:44Z Riastradh: Does anyone actually use SRFI 10 beyond illustrative toys?
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2019-08-07T16:34:23Z gwatt: considering "#," conflicts with r6rs/syntax-case I would imagine not
2019-08-07T16:36:22Z jcowan: I believe it is used, at least internally, by Chicken.
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2019-08-07T17:15:00Z mdhughes: Yeah, it's used for record read/write.
2019-08-07T17:15:49Z mdhughes: There's a (define-record-printer) form to get them in.
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2019-08-07T17:29:10Z Riastradh: I know it has technically been implemented; what I'm wondering is whether anyone uses it in practice.
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2019-08-07T17:34:33Z jcowan: #, was a brain fart
2019-08-07T17:34:45Z jcowan: #. is correct
2019-08-07T17:36:54Z mdhughes: Yes, I saw it in other record-handling code, which is why I knew it existed/worked.
2019-08-07T17:37:49Z mdhughes: There are more things in Chez and Chicken, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your LISP spec.
2019-08-07T17:41:01Z aeth: Oh, good, I was wondering why Scheme used that syntax
2019-08-07T17:41:08Z aeth: Apparently it doesn't
2019-08-07T17:44:36Z mdhughes: Someone should've said something 20 years ago…
2019-08-07T17:45:09Z mdhughes: (I was busy with Java and whiskey.)
2019-08-07T17:45:12Z jcowan: Said what?
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2019-08-07T18:52:23Z o2l: Hello all! I am a few chapters into SICP and it has changed how I perceive programming. I would like to know what real life projects you people work on using Scheme
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2019-08-07T19:01:14Z siraben: o2l: so many people have written their own scheme compilers and interpreters. Here I've written an assembler and OS for the Z80 chip in Guile Scheme.
2019-08-07T19:01:17Z siraben: https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80
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2019-08-07T19:03:46Z o2l: siraben: Wow! That's impressive
2019-08-07T19:04:15Z o2l: How long do you think it should take for a person to start developing practical applications, after finishing SICP?
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2019-08-07T19:10:31Z ecraven: jcowan: doesn't
2019-08-07T19:10:51Z ecraven: #. make it close to impossible to `read' anything safely?
2019-08-07T19:10:58Z ecraven: unless #. doesn't do what it does in CL
2019-08-07T19:16:11Z amz3: o2l: I am building somekind of database using Chez Scheme
2019-08-07T19:16:23Z amz3: o2l: also working on compiler to web assembly
2019-08-07T19:17:50Z o2l: Coool! :O
2019-08-07T19:17:51Z amz3: o2l: after SICP, it depends what prior experience do you and it depends on the kind of application you want to build
2019-08-07T19:18:31Z amz3: o2l: actually all those pieces will be put together to build a modern memex ;-
2019-08-07T19:18:36Z amz3: are you familiar with the memex?
2019-08-07T19:18:40Z ecraven: just build whatever you *want* to build, otherwise you'll lose motivation anyway ;D
2019-08-07T19:18:49Z amz3: +1 ecraven
2019-08-07T19:19:19Z o2l: Yeah, I can related to that
2019-08-07T19:19:20Z ecraven: start with "simple" things.. if you use any of the more popular Schemes, you can write anything.. web stuff, games, applications, many even work on phones..
2019-08-07T19:19:52Z o2l: I had not heard of 'memex' until now but I just opened a wiki page. Looks like an interesting read :-)
2019-08-07T19:21:08Z o2l: Here's a noob question, how would any flavor of scheme compare with Rust in terms of performance. I know I can find this stuff online too, but I would still like to know a Scheme developers opinion
2019-08-07T19:21:38Z aeth: Racket's on these microbenchmarks: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/which-programs-are-fastest.html
2019-08-07T19:21:51Z aeth: Note that that represents the best case of C/C++/Rust/etc. optimization, and real-world the gap won't be as large
2019-08-07T19:22:17Z amz3: o2l: performance depends on Scheme implementation... Chez Scheme is said to be fatest Scheme, and on microbenchmarks it was faster that Java
2019-08-07T19:22:36Z amz3: o2l: I benchmarked my database
2019-08-07T19:24:28Z o2l: Alright. And if I am not wrong, Racket now runs on Chez
2019-08-07T19:24:37Z o2l: Do you think Racket is a good place to start
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2019-08-07T19:25:08Z amz3: a lot of people say so, I would recommend Chez instead ;)
2019-08-07T19:25:29Z o2l: that's what I had in mind too. I would start with Chez
2019-08-07T19:25:33Z amz3: o2l: also based on official benchmarks Racket on Chez is not as fast as Chez
2019-08-07T19:25:49Z amz3: far from it
2019-08-07T19:27:41Z gwatt: eh, there are some where Racket on CS is faster than Chez
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2019-08-07T19:35:24Z ecraven: given that racket seems to be moving *away* from s-expression, I'd not suggest it any longer
2019-08-07T19:36:05Z ecraven: chez does not have as many libraries as other implementations (notably guile, chicken and probably gerbil/gambitc), however it is consistently one of the fastest Schemes around
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2019-08-07T19:38:02Z gwatt: racket is probably still a fine choice. It doesn't sound like they've gotten too far towards any syntax changes.
2019-08-07T19:38:30Z gwatt: current racket already allows infix within { }
2019-08-07T19:40:19Z aeth: I think Chicken is second in libraries after Racket
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2019-08-07T19:55:58Z gwatt: ecraven: Here's mflatt's announcement on the syntax: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/racket-users/3aIPOGbGgmc/A4HHSbdxAwAJ
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2019-08-07T20:35:40Z dTal: I'm astonished at the damage mflatt's innocent proposal seems to be doing to Racket
2019-08-07T20:36:14Z Riastradh: jcowan: #.?  Does anyone ever use #. in Scheme even in toys?
2019-08-07T20:36:28Z dTal: you'd think that people would have enough faith in the community that, if it were actually a bad idea, enough people involved in Racket would say "nope bad idea" for it not to happen
2019-08-07T20:37:05Z Riastradh: I'mma replace Racket's syntax by Metafont, a Real Programmer's macro language.
2019-08-07T20:39:07Z dTal: I'm also kind of surprised that lisp programmers, who famously understand that syntax is the less important part of a language, can have such a strong reaction to a mere syntax change. It's not like your Racket knowledge will be obsolete
2019-08-07T20:39:41Z dTal: and of course, macros have to keep working so there will *always* be a canonical s-expression form
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2019-08-07T20:43:31Z gwatt: asdfasdf
2019-08-07T20:44:15Z gwatt: dTal: especially because he said " '#lang racket' is not going away"
2019-08-07T20:44:28Z Riastradh: Metafont isn't even constrained by the parenthetical structure!
2019-08-07T21:02:35Z aeth: dTal: Tools matter. No one (or a close approximation of that number) uses DrRacket. Everyone (or a close approximation of that number) is used to GNU Emacs with something like paredit.
2019-08-07T21:03:06Z aeth: A radical syntax change that breaks all of the tools (which are often at least partially shared in common with e.g. Common Lisp and other Lisps) is a major step back
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2019-08-07T21:03:24Z Riastradh: also it violates tribal taboo
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2019-08-07T21:05:31Z aeth: dTal: Right now, I can just edit Racket with geiser+paredit in Emacs and the only overhead is (1) geiser's worse than SLIME and (2) I have to look up the specifics in https://docs.racket-lang.org/
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2019-08-07T21:06:23Z dTal: aeth: then they can keep using GNU Emacs and #lang racket
2019-08-07T21:06:40Z dTal: but, and here's another lisp community blind spot - GNU Emacs *sucks*
2019-08-07T21:07:10Z aeth: dTal: Defaults matter. And, yes, GNU Emacs does suck, in part because defaults matter and it takes like 20 one-liners to get behvaior that should be out of the box. Not as bad as it used to be, though.
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2019-08-07T21:07:22Z Riastradh: GNU Emacs sucks so much I totally can't effectively get work done with it every day, seven days a week, for years.
2019-08-07T21:07:30Z Riastradh: Nobody else can either.
2019-08-07T21:07:32Z dTal: Racket aims to be like the Python of the lisp world - a lisp oriented around human factors. Emacs has atrocious human factors, even configured
2019-08-07T21:08:06Z justinethier: if GNU Emacs sucks so much, what do you use instead?
2019-08-07T21:08:10Z aeth: dTal: GNU Emacs is pretty bad, but every other Lisp/Scheme editor is orders of magnitudes worse.
2019-08-07T21:08:11Z Riastradh: % wc -l .emacs
2019-08-07T21:08:14Z Riastradh: 12 .emacs
2019-08-07T21:08:29Z aeth: Riastradh: Then you're missing about 8 fixes that would improve your emacs experience :-p
2019-08-07T21:08:39Z dTal: Yes, you can learn your way around it with time and pain. And then you can justify your effort with "good tools take investment". Doesn't change the fact that it's an unneccesarily terrible learning curve.
2019-08-07T21:08:50Z dTal: It's hardly surprising. Emacs is extremely old.
2019-08-07T21:08:51Z Riastradh: four lines are comments, one is blank
2019-08-07T21:08:56Z aeth: Anyway, I'd describe Emacs as a cheap knock-off of a Lisp Machine OS, but it's not like they're making lispm's anymore.
2019-08-07T21:09:32Z dTal: justinethier: Me, I just use Kate at the minute. It's lacking a good send-to-repl plugin, and a good paredit mode, but these are fixable flaws
2019-08-07T21:10:09Z aeth: You're missing out on a lot of productivity, then. Productivity that would be lost if Racket changed syntax.
2019-08-07T21:10:13Z Riastradh: Sometimes I wish I'd defended a paredit trademark so that people would call their cheap knock-off paredits something else.
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2019-08-07T21:10:28Z aeth: Riastradh: You're the paredit author?
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2019-08-07T21:10:56Z Riastradh: Apparently.
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2019-08-07T21:12:25Z dTal: aeth: Not a huge amount of productivity. I spend more time thinking than typing.
2019-08-07T21:13:09Z dTal: I get a lot of productivity back from the lack of cognitive overhead, from using an editor fully integrated into my desktop environment
2019-08-07T21:13:38Z aeth: dTal: paredit offers structural refactoring with a handful of keystrokes, bound to the cut/paste keys so the learning curve's low. Really easy to change where some s-expression goes, which often doesn't require a lot of thought... very bottlenecked by the editor
2019-08-07T21:13:49Z dTal: There's nothing magic about emacs.
2019-08-07T21:14:00Z dTal: It's just where all the inertia is, for all the plugins.
2019-08-07T21:14:34Z aeth: so e.g. (+ 1 1) (define foo (x) ) then I kill the first s-expression then (define foo (x) (+ 1 1)) then I substitute one of the 1's for x and (define foo (x) (+ 1 x)) and it happens very quickly
2019-08-07T21:14:56Z aeth: And if the (+ 1 1) was after the define, I can do it in one step
2019-08-07T21:15:03Z aeth: s/define foo (x)/define (foo x)/
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2019-08-07T21:17:03Z gwatt: aeth: "#lang racket" is not changing. The racket group is trying out a new #lang that will have some infix stuff. Your current workflow will be fine.
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2019-08-07T22:15:52Z jcowan: When I was active in Lojban, I found that people could tolerate changes to the syntax pretty well.  But changes to the morphology (the shape of words) squicked them, and they hated them.
2019-08-07T22:16:05Z jcowan:  Lexical syntax corresponds to morphology.
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2019-08-07T22:16:28Z jcowan: as does the basic Cambridge Polish syntax.
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2019-08-07T23:20:52Z dTal: Probably the mflatt proposal suffers from an excess of ambition, all at once.
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2019-08-07T23:21:53Z nisstyre: dTal: I know how to reduce parentheses in scheme. Remove `begin` from all of the forms like define, let, etc
2019-08-07T23:22:12Z nisstyre: easy, and you get a nice benefit in readability
2019-08-07T23:22:29Z dTal: Nothing wrong with the goal, but perhaps it would have been better to ease people in more gently with suggestions like "what kind of tedious boilerplate can we relieve with the cunning use of syntactical twiddles, like we do for quote and quasiquote etc."
2019-08-07T23:23:39Z nisstyre: everyone wants to come up with their own spin on things and publish papers though
2019-08-07T23:23:43Z nisstyre: instead of simple solutions
2019-08-07T23:23:52Z nisstyre: which aren't unique or special
2019-08-07T23:24:07Z nisstyre: that's the problem with Racket
2019-08-07T23:24:17Z dTal: I'm not sure what you mean by removing "begin" from "define"
2019-08-07T23:24:22Z nisstyre: dTal: implicit begin
2019-08-07T23:24:35Z nisstyre: instead of (define (f x) x) you can now write define (f x) x
2019-08-07T23:24:40Z nisstyre: and the ambiguity is gone
2019-08-07T23:25:09Z nisstyre: same with other forms that have implicit begin's
2019-08-07T23:25:23Z dTal: I don't see what that has to do with (define), isn't that just making parens around top level forms optional?
2019-08-07T23:25:36Z dTal: there's a single implicit (begin) around all the top level forms
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2019-08-07T23:26:12Z nisstyre: dTal: the parser expects 1 or more forms inside those forms because there is a `begin`
2019-08-07T23:26:25Z nisstyre: if it expects 1 and only 1 then you don't need the extra parens around it for parsing
2019-08-07T23:26:28Z nisstyre: that's the idea
2019-08-07T23:26:35Z nisstyre: http://shriram.github.io/p4p/
2019-08-07T23:26:45Z nisstyre: this is a proposal for that (and a bunch of other stuff)
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2019-08-07T23:27:42Z dTal: where's the (begin) in (define)? it already expects 1 and only 1 form for the definition
2019-08-07T23:27:51Z nisstyre: not in Racket
2019-08-07T23:28:09Z dTal: oh
2019-08-07T23:28:29Z nisstyre: or it seems Guile
2019-08-07T23:28:39Z nisstyre: you can do (define (f a b) (display a) (display b))
2019-08-07T23:28:40Z nisstyre: and that works fine
2019-08-07T23:29:01Z nisstyre: because it's really (define (f a b) (begin (display a) (display b)))
2019-08-07T23:29:35Z nisstyre: if you remove that, then you can only put one expression in the body
2019-08-07T23:29:44Z nisstyre: then you just have to come up with a nicer syntax for `begin`
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2019-08-07T23:29:58Z nisstyre: which the most obvious choice is, indentation
2019-08-07T23:30:08Z nisstyre: but you could do it other ways too
2019-08-07T23:30:33Z dTal: I like indentation, in Python, but I don't think it's an especially good fit for a language like scheme
2019-08-07T23:30:48Z nisstyre: me neither
2019-08-07T23:30:54Z dTal: it's not context free
2019-08-07T23:30:59Z nisstyre: I would honestly be ok with braces
2019-08-07T23:31:23Z nisstyre: but you can actually already do that in Racket, kinda
2019-08-07T23:32:20Z nisstyre: it's just really unpleasant for some https://ideone.com/d3qSVU
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2019-08-07T23:36:03Z nisstyre: so the only changes you'd make to the syntax would be 1: remove implicit begin, 2: remove the need for extra parens to close forms where it's no longer ambiguous (define, let, cond, etc), 3: change the meaning of { ... } to be syntactic sugar for (begin ...)
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2019-08-07T23:45:56Z dTal: I don't think removing parentheses is a great intrinsic goal as such
2019-08-07T23:46:24Z dTal: the problem isn't the quantity, the problem is the homogenaeity (which is also the strength)
2019-08-07T23:46:38Z dTal: whitespace is also homogenous
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2019-08-07T23:48:03Z jcowan: (define foo ...) allows only one expression, but (define (foo ...) ...) allows any number of expressions because it is a lambda, and a lambda allows any number.
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2019-08-07T23:48:50Z dTal: I don't find wisp-like proposals especially readable because they actually exacerbate the problem - they give nothing for the eye to grab on to, except indentation which we already have
2019-08-07T23:50:24Z dTal: jcowan: ah right
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2019-08-07T23:57:04Z nisstyre: oh yes it's desugared to (define foo (lambda (x) (begin ...)))
2019-08-07T23:57:06Z nisstyre: but you get the point
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2019-08-08T04:47:21Z mdhughes: I use {} around all let or looping structures, [] for grouping vars in let, etc., which helps with readability and structure.
2019-08-08T04:48:28Z mdhughes: Indentation-only structure when you don't use algebraic form is not a good idea, though. Long formulas would fill half a screen instead of 1 line.
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2019-08-08T04:54:35Z mdhughes: LOGO is a nice improved LISP syntax, though. Anything with fixed arity doesn't need brackets. Anything in brackets is an implicit [begin …] and lazy-evaled. TO (aka defun) just reads until END. But it's not homoiconic, it's not parseable unless you have the library already parsed.
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2019-08-08T05:16:26Z ecraven: dTal: s-expressions are not necessary for macros, there are several languages that have full-fledged macros, but no s-expressions... Dylan was one of the first, I believe?
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2019-08-08T05:17:15Z ecraven: dTal: some people in the racket community *have* said it is a bad idea, the answer seems to be "the community is less important than possible gains from this switch"
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2019-08-08T05:57:13Z lockywolf: Is there anything to access time in nanoseconds?
2019-08-08T05:57:33Z lockywolf: Ideally, in Chibi.
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2019-08-08T08:03:27Z rain2: yes there is a javascript addon which adds hygienic macros
2019-08-08T08:03:36Z rain2: and rust has macros
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2019-08-08T08:45:35Z lockywolf: What can be (export)ed?
2019-08-08T08:46:12Z lockywolf: Only top-level identifiers, right?
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2019-08-08T14:02:21Z o2l: (define (mystery a b)
2019-08-08T14:02:36Z o2l: The distinction between code & data disappeared for me when I read this snippet in SICP
2019-08-08T14:03:29Z o2l: Before that, it was just something that I remembered reading somewhere, but after looking at it I understood
2019-08-08T14:03:46Z o2l: Noob schemer here. Felt like sharing this
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2019-08-08T14:09:50Z dTal: )
2019-08-08T14:10:34Z pjb: (car '(define (mystery a b))) #| --> define |#    (caadr '(define (mystery a b))) #| --> mystery |#
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2019-08-08T14:13:46Z jcowan: lockywolf: It would be easy to write a .stub file to access clock_gettime().  See the other .stub files in the Chibi source for guidance.
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2019-08-08T14:17:36Z lockywolf: jcowan, thanks
2019-08-08T14:18:17Z lockywolf: does scheme have something like (defsubst ) from Emacs Lisp?
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2019-08-08T14:25:17Z jcowan: Many Schemes support inlining, but there is no standard way.
2019-08-08T14:25:52Z jcowan: In Chibi it's kinda pointless, given the bytecode interpreter; it would make more sense for the JIT (if/when there is one) to inline.
2019-08-08T14:26:17Z gwatt: why is it pointless to inline bytecode?
2019-08-08T14:32:08Z lockywolf: Stupid question, but still...
2019-08-08T14:32:26Z lockywolf: Can I always replace (begin) with (let () )?
2019-08-08T14:38:29Z jcowan: No, actually there is some benefit to inlining bytecode, just not so much as inlining JIT-produced machine code.
2019-08-08T14:38:42Z jcowan: I think.  I'm a little out of my depth here.
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2019-08-08T14:38:55Z ggole: bytecode is attractive partly because of its simplicity of implementation and reliability of debugging, both of which are (somewhat) degraded by inlining
2019-08-08T14:39:35Z ggole: (And possibly things like redefinition, for which inlining is also trouble.)
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2019-08-08T14:48:32Z gwatt: lockywolf: yep, you can replace begin with a let with no bindings.
2019-08-08T14:48:46Z gwatt: both can be implemented in terms of lambda expressions
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2019-08-08T15:14:12Z lockywolf: gwatt, the reason being -- in my setup (begin) suppresses (display) output for no obvious reason.
2019-08-08T15:14:25Z lockywolf: let* doesn't
2019-08-08T15:14:35Z gwatt: which scheme are you using?
2019-08-08T15:14:49Z lockywolf: Until I find the root cause, I need a substitute.
2019-08-08T15:15:02Z lockywolf: Chibi, but it's not chibi's fault.
2019-08-08T15:15:19Z lockywolf: It doesn't happen if I use (begin) in chibi itself.
2019-08-08T15:15:31Z lockywolf: But I am doing it through Emacs Geiser.
2019-08-08T15:15:43Z lockywolf: Which, I guess, fiddles with (begin) somehow.
2019-08-08T15:17:06Z gwatt: huh, that's weird. I'd imagine people would have noticed if it fiddled with begin...
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2019-08-08T15:18:09Z lockywolf: People don't use geiser with chibi too much.
2019-08-08T15:18:24Z lockywolf: Also I noticed.
2019-08-08T15:19:02Z gwatt: I meant sooner, not that you're not a person ;p
2019-08-08T15:19:28Z lockywolf: Nah, geiser's support for chibi is not impressive.
2019-08-08T15:19:39Z dwdv: Had problems with it using chicken and gerbil as well. Ditched it all together.
2019-08-08T15:20:07Z justinethier: ecraven - Just curious, how did it go with the latest run of the benchmarks? Is there anything I can assist with?
2019-08-08T15:20:09Z gwatt: I know running chez under emacs caused an issue, but I think that's because of chez's fancy repl support and
2019-08-08T15:20:34Z gwatt: the threaded version locking a mutex when doing IO on the default output port
2019-08-08T15:21:00Z lockywolf: Geiser is not exactly the example of excellent Emacs Lisp code.
2019-08-08T15:21:18Z lockywolf: Perhaps because it's written by schemers...
2019-08-08T15:21:32Z lockywolf whistles inconspicuously
2019-08-08T15:22:05Z gwatt: you could try swank
2019-08-08T15:22:26Z gwatt is not an emacs user, so maybe he shouldn't give advice...
2019-08-08T15:25:05Z lockywolf: Just googled it.
2019-08-08T15:25:12Z dTal: gwatt: what do you use?
2019-08-08T15:25:21Z lockywolf: Seems having to do something with SLIME...
2019-08-08T15:25:29Z lockywolf: Isn't slime for CL?
2019-08-08T15:26:04Z gwatt: lockywolf: vim
2019-08-08T15:27:15Z lockywolf: I guess, this was addressed to dTal ?
2019-08-08T15:27:56Z lockywolf: There is something called 'swank' for scheme, but I don't understand what it is.
2019-08-08T15:29:12Z gwatt: I looked specifically at this: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-swank
2019-08-08T15:29:55Z lockywolf: Indeed, I found it too.
2019-08-08T15:30:09Z lockywolf: I wonder if SLIME can do scheme.
2019-08-08T15:38:30Z badkins: ecraven: re: "given that racket seems to be moving *away* from s-expression, I'd not suggest it any longer" I'd like to nip this in the bud so to speak :) #lang racket will continue to be well supported, and a number of people, such as myself, will continue to use it despite the *possibility* of a new syntax.
2019-08-08T15:44:25Z badkins: I reacted pretty strongly to the original announcement, so I started checkout out various Scheme implementations, but I still feel Racket is the best Scheme implementation for building the types of applications I build. It's fast enough, lots of libraries - and the ones I've been using have been very well designed, a very responsive community, etc.
2019-08-08T15:46:39Z badkins: It's regrettable that the core team has handled the "Racket2" development the way they did, but I think things will be cleared up substantially in the coming weeks. The "new syntax" idea is extremely ambitious, and given the long history of similar attempts, it's likely to either fail, or be a *long* time before it's delivered.
2019-08-08T15:48:33Z badkins: In the meantime, Racket has reached the point (at least for me), where I don't really need *any* new language features, just more libraries, so I'm basically proceeding in the same manner as I was before the ill-fated announcement derailed me for a couple weeks :)
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2019-08-08T15:58:49Z dTal: How did the core team handle the "Racket2" proposal badly?
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2019-08-08T16:04:38Z jcowan: "Hey guys, new shiny!" as opposed to "We're adding an *alternative* to try to attract more non-Lispers, but will continue to support #lang racket".  Something like the latter needed to be up front.
2019-08-08T16:05:00Z dTal: Wasn't it?
2019-08-08T16:07:27Z badkins: dTal: they introduced a *highly* controversial change (i.e. adding infix syntax to a Scheme) in the context of "Racket2" i.e. the presumed successor to Racket. If they had instead treated it like Typed Racket, or other languages that have been developed in Racket, it would have had a *very* different response.
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2019-08-08T16:09:07Z dTal: A single contributor proposed it, and was *very* clear about what you are saying
2019-08-08T16:09:32Z badkins: The infix syntax effort is highly risky and will likely take 3 to 5 years to pull off, if it's even possible. So, in the meantime, folks that prefer s-expressions are wondering if they've been effectively dead-ended, and folks that prefer infix will have to wait half a decade. It's a great way to take a relatively small community and make it smaller.
2019-08-08T16:09:38Z dTal: "The name "Racket2" stands for some language that builds on the current Racket technology and implementation, but that may not directly accommodate the same bindings and expression forms that appear in the body of a `#lang racket` module. "... ""Racket2" is normally understood as a placeholder for a more distinct name. As a matter of branding, perhaps the language would be called "Racket X" for some good X"
2019-08-08T16:09:55Z badkins: Lisps have been incredibly good at dividing and conquering themselves over the decades, but I had hoped that Racket was different ...
2019-08-08T16:10:45Z dTal: interesting #langs are the entire point of Racket
2019-08-08T16:10:54Z badkins: dTal: that is *one* statement, there have been many, *many* other statements
2019-08-08T16:11:05Z jcowan: Yes, that.  But also, *all* languages forked like this back when all implementations were proprietary.
2019-08-08T16:11:32Z badkins: dTal: I agree about interesting langs, but unless you've put a lot of money on the line (as I have) in choosing #lang racket, it might be hard to understand how you might react to the announcement.
2019-08-08T16:12:23Z dTal: it seems to me that the major mistake in the announcement was the choice of "Racket 2" as a placeholder, giving the false impression that Racket proper would be deprecated
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2019-08-08T16:12:37Z badkins: If you're all about research, experimenting, etc., then I don't think it's a big deal to make huge proposals. If you're developing a large codebase, the needs are a bit different.
2019-08-08T16:12:46Z badkins: dTal: agreed
2019-08-08T16:13:14Z badkins: If they had simply said, we want to try #lang infix, I think just about everyone would've been fine with it, and even encouraging about it.
2019-08-08T16:13:27Z dTal: but again, it was just a proposal, and everyone's treating it as though it were some sort of official announcement of future direction
2019-08-08T16:13:48Z badkins: It was a proposal from the primary maintainer of the Racket language.
2019-08-08T16:14:57Z dTal: But nevertheless, a proposal. Matthew Flatt is not a BDFL
2019-08-08T16:15:06Z badkins: It's about as official as it gets. It's true that they've stated it hasn't yet been decided, but they've also said they need something concrete first, so if it takes 4 years before deciding, don't expect everyone to simply wait around.
2019-08-08T16:15:23Z badkins: dTal: yes, Matthew is not a BDFL, but just look at the git commit history...
2019-08-08T16:16:49Z badkins: To be clear, I'm personally bullish on Racket, and I plan on continuing to develop in #lang racket for a long, long time. I just want some clarification before I lose too many contributors!
2019-08-08T16:17:25Z dTal: Well, it's not entirely surprising that the person most familiar with the code is in the best place to make such a proposal. Probably no one else would be brave enough.
2019-08-08T16:18:30Z badkins: https://github.com/racket/racket/graphs/contributors?from=2017-08-06&to=2019-08-08&type=c
2019-08-08T16:18:50Z dTal: To me, this proposal confirms to me that Racket is indeed the revolutionary language I thought it was, and makes me *more* excited for its future
2019-08-08T16:19:02Z badkins: I'm all for the proposal, just not as "Racket2". It's a subtle, but *extremely* important distinction.
2019-08-08T16:19:26Z badkins: Agreed re: the future, this is just a bumpy period that we need to get through.
2019-08-08T16:19:54Z dTal: I've always felt a major purpose of Racket's design was to deprecate fiascos like the Python2 -> Python3
2019-08-08T16:20:31Z dTal: but it's pointless to design a cool system like that, and then not use to be a bit braver about language design exploration
2019-08-08T16:20:44Z badkins: yes, but that has both a technical aspect and a communication aspect - the former is good, the latter needs a lot of work.
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2019-08-08T16:21:28Z dTal: it's true, there are social effects to consider
2019-08-08T16:24:02Z dTal: but even if they ultimately decide not to do it, the fact that they're willing to entertain the idea is exciting - it makes me more interested in investing in Racket because with this sort of attitude it's always possible that $COOL_FEATURE might eventually become part of Racket, and I won't be missing out
2019-08-08T16:24:41Z dTal: if I suddenly decide that types, or laziness, is a really awesome paradigm - hey, I don't have to switch languages!
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2019-08-08T16:30:14Z Zipheir: Racket is ... PL/I?
2019-08-08T16:32:57Z ecraven: badkins: from what I read on the mailing list, it *isn't* entirely clear that #lang racket will be supported for a long time, as I understood it they left that open
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2019-08-08T16:34:27Z badkins: ecraven: I think the core team has made it clear #lang racket will continue to be supported basically forever, but the *way* they've communicated that has been poor IMO, and it requires a lot of reading as well as reading-between-the-lines at times.
2019-08-08T16:36:10Z badkins: In their defense, their history of backward compatibility is almost unparalleled in my mind i.e. you can still run #lang scheme & #lang mzscheme, etc. I think they've had a *very* small number of breaking changes over the years - immutable cons cells might be one.
2019-08-08T16:37:58Z badkins: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/racket-users/3aIPOGbGgmc/A4HHSbdxAwAJ
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2019-08-08T16:38:49Z badkins: In particular, "`#lang racket` is not going away and will always have its current parenthesis-oriented syntax."
2019-08-08T16:39:21Z badkins: Now, I agree that the phrase "is not going away" is not as confidence inspiring as I would like :) And that's part of the problem I think.
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2019-08-08T16:41:08Z Zipheir: Has anyone actually stated what the benefit of such a major change would be?  Or is it really just "new, shiny!"
2019-08-08T16:41:27Z ecraven: I read (one of) the mail threads by greg, the core teams' answers didn't inspire much confidence in me.. but then, I'm not an actual heavy user of racket, so in the end, they are welcome to do whatever they want ;)
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2019-08-08T16:41:38Z ecraven: to me, it looks a bit like what Dylan tried
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2019-08-08T16:43:05Z badkins: Zipheir: the stated goal is to reduce barriers to Racket's ideas i.e. language oriented programming. The professors have a strong belief that parens are a strong barrier.
2019-08-08T16:43:37Z Zipheir: Blech.
2019-08-08T16:44:38Z badkins: Zipheir: I personally have a strong preference *for* s-expressions (partly objective, partly subjective), but I do agree that for some people, parens are a barrier. However, will switching to a new syntax woo those same people? That's an open question, and I suspect not.
2019-08-08T16:46:30Z Zipheir: badkins: For some reason, I'm reminded of Mozilla's mad rush to emulate Chrome.  Simultaneously driving away core users while failing to attract the new userbase they expected.
2019-08-08T16:47:08Z badkins: Yes, I think history has quite a few examples :)
2019-08-08T16:48:08Z jcowan: Yes.  Why be a second-class Chrome instead of a first-class Mozilla?  Answer: money.
2019-08-08T16:55:43Z Zipheir: badkins: Hopefully they keep maintaining the sexp language, in any case.
2019-08-08T16:57:01Z badkins: Zipheir: I think they certainly will, and the shiny new language will most certainly be implemented in #lang racket. They will share a runtime, etc. I just think a very clear declaration of the roadmap (including the future of #lang racket) would go a *long* way in inspiring confidence, and let us just move on.
2019-08-08T17:03:41Z dTal: way I see it, a totally homogenous syntax is great for parsing source code, and for exposing the execution model
2019-08-08T17:04:19Z dTal: but it's a pretty sub-optimal use of human brain resources, which are half graphical, half linguistic, and quite messy
2019-08-08T17:06:58Z dTal: so, in order to reap the benefits of both, you need to have both - a clean, canonical tree form, and also a twiddly syntax sugared form to lower the number of explicit lexical symbols you have to hold in your mind
2019-08-08T17:08:20Z dTal: ideally the translation between the two should be unambiguous with simple parsing rules, and ideally each individual bit of syntax sugar should be orthogonal to every other bit, so use of any one is optional
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2019-08-08T17:12:01Z lockywolf: Is there a canonical way to absolutise a filename?
2019-08-08T17:13:07Z Zipheir: dTal: $is @this %twiddly :$enough @*for &your @brain?
2019-08-08T17:13:08Z dTal: Scheme is already designed in exactly this way, with a few bits of completely de-paren'd helper syntax which map unambiguously to canonical s-expr forms (and nobody uses the canonical s-expr forms unless they are writing macros, so this model demonstrably works)
2019-08-08T17:13:24Z lockywolf: I.e. I want ( ./catalogue1/file1.scm -> (current-directory)/./catalogue1/file1.scm), but (/tmp/file.scm -> /tmp/file.scm).
2019-08-08T17:13:34Z dTal: Zipheir: I don't get your point
2019-08-08T17:14:20Z gwatt: dTal: Zipheir's message looks to be a joke about perl6
2019-08-08T17:14:33Z lockywolf: Perl6 is ok
2019-08-08T17:15:23Z dTal: my most controversial opinion is probably that I actually quite like perl-style sigils :p
2019-08-08T17:16:04Z Zipheir: dTal: It seems like when people start trying to come up with what I think you mean by "a twiddly syntax sugared form" they usually end up with Perl.
2019-08-08T17:16:05Z dTal: although the thing they accomplish could be better acheived with rich formatting, which is probably just as controversial
2019-08-08T17:16:37Z dTal: Zipheir: I'm talking about things like 'form -> (quote form)
2019-08-08T17:16:57Z dTal: I think there's room for a *lot* more of that sort of thing
2019-08-08T17:17:43Z Zipheir: dTal: Example?
2019-08-08T17:18:00Z dTal: I ain't no language designer :p
2019-08-08T17:18:18Z dTal: infix math inside curly braces probably isn't too bad either
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2019-08-08T17:19:09Z dTal: lambda forms could do with some sugaring
2019-08-08T17:19:37Z lockywolf: I can, obviously, use (if (equal? (substring filename 0 1) ".")
2019-08-08T17:19:44Z lockywolf: But is there a better way?
2019-08-08T17:19:55Z Zipheir: lockywolf: I don't think there's anything standard or even in the SRFIs yet.
2019-08-08T17:20:00Z Zipheir: lockywolf: I'm looking, though.
2019-08-08T17:21:05Z Zipheir: dTal: All the lets are sugared lambda forms.
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2019-08-08T17:22:47Z Zipheir: lockywolf: You're using Chibi, right?
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2019-08-08T17:28:23Z Zipheir: lockywolf: If so, chibi uses path-resolve from the (chibi pathname) library.  SRFI-170 (draft) has `real-path'.
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2019-08-08T17:29:46Z lockywolf: Zipheir, wow!
2019-08-08T17:30:03Z lockywolf: I was looking in (chibi filesystem) for too long.
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2019-08-08T18:46:28Z rain2: hey
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2019-08-08T18:46:43Z duncanm: srfi 170 is interesting
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2019-08-08T18:57:37Z xivh: Hello, I'm going to be maintaining/updating a simulation program in c++, but I would like to be able to interact with it in a lisp. Is scheme my best option?
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2019-08-08T19:03:01Z ecraven: there are many options ;) several CLs and many Schemes can be embedded, and even more can interface nicely with C
2019-08-08T19:03:13Z ecraven: for pure C++, your choice is rather limited though
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2019-08-08T19:12:37Z xivh: Do you have any recommendations? I've used CL and Clojure before but never a scheme. I'm hoping that the program was not written in modern c++, but I haven't seen the source and no one else in the lab knows enough about programming for me to find out until I actually start.
2019-08-08T19:15:33Z gwatt: xivh: how do you want to use the lisp with the program? Will the lisp be the driver and use the program more as a library, or will the program call out to code written in lisp?
2019-08-08T19:15:50Z ecraven: I've tried embedding chibi in C++ code, worked well enough, it is however about 100% slower than lua would be (which is heavily optimized) for the simple workloads I tried. still plenty fast enough for most workloads
2019-08-08T19:16:14Z ecraven: almost every Scheme has a nice FFI for calling to / from C
2019-08-08T19:16:57Z Zipheir: Guile seems to be popular for embedding in C++.
2019-08-08T19:17:38Z xivh: Unfortunately I don't know much about the program and the extent of what I have to do - it took a while for them to even figure out if it was in C or C++...
2019-08-08T19:18:20Z ober: ecraven: and some like gambit wallow in it
2019-08-08T19:19:15Z Zipheir: xivh: Is this some alien technology you're trying to interface with? :)
2019-08-08T19:19:23Z gwatt: well, it is C++...
2019-08-08T19:19:33Z Zipheir: So primitive aliens.
2019-08-08T19:19:59Z xivh: It's a physics simulation for one of their machines that was written by someone who has left the lab
2019-08-08T19:20:31Z Zipheir: Do you have the source?
2019-08-08T19:21:10Z gwatt: xivh: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2019-08-08T19:21:38Z xivh: Not yet, I don't start for another month. I was hoping I could do something in the meantime to prepare because I haven't used scheme or embedded a language before.
2019-08-08T19:22:57Z Zipheir: I suppose reading the docs for Chibi, Guile or any other Scheme that targets embedding would be good preparation.
2019-08-08T19:23:41Z xivh: That sounds good. I suppose I could also use lua, but I don't really want to learn it.
2019-08-08T19:23:49Z Zipheir: e.g. http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/#h2_EmbeddinginC
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2019-08-08T19:35:32Z xivh: Thanks for the help
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2019-08-08T20:07:29Z amz3: xivh: look at libfive it is c++ program that embed a scheme
2019-08-08T20:08:09Z amz3: xivh:https://libfive.com/studio/
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2019-08-08T20:12:14Z xivh: Thanks, I'll take a look.
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2019-08-08T21:07:30Z ecraven: is there any sort of machine learning that can decipher 18th century roman catholic baptism books?
2019-08-08T21:09:41Z ecraven: not sure what to call them correctly, matricula?
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2019-08-08T21:15:36Z amz3: no but I have symbolic evaluator to execute necronomicon spells
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2019-08-08T21:29:52Z mdhughes: As we all know, the Al Azif was originally written in MACLISP.
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2019-08-08T21:30:27Z Zipheir: Sounds like a use for call-with-cthulu (didn't CHICKEN have that once?)
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2019-08-08T21:42:53Z justinethier: ecraven - Not sure if you saw my message earlier. Just wondering if there's anything I can do to help out with the latest run...
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2019-08-08T23:27:40Z jcowan: xivh: ECL is also an option if you already know CL.  It's a good implementation and designed for embedding.
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2019-08-08T23:29:14Z aeth: There's also a C++ CL, called Clasp, but it's currently incomplete, e.g. no CFFI support (I guess you'd have to use its non-portable FFI).
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2019-08-08T23:43:19Z xivh: I saw ECL but some people said it was large compared to scheme? I also took a look at Guile but I am unsure if it works on Windows, which is probably not good for general use.
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2019-08-08T23:48:23Z dTal: Purely on the basis of what libfive can do, Guile is an excellent choice. I fricken love libfive.
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2019-08-08T23:56:46Z aeth: xivh: Lua (about 2 MB?) has much lower RAM usage than ECL or Guile, but they sem to be comparable on my machine. 15 MB vs 22 MB. Except even that's not quite fair because my ECL is going to be loading Quicklisp automatically...
2019-08-08T23:56:59Z aeth: s/they sem/the latter two seem/
2019-08-08T23:59:05Z aeth: You could probably get a Scheme that has a tiny RAM footprint, but they'll probably get it there by not implementing many features beyond the tiny r5rs or r7rs-small standard.
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2019-08-09T00:13:57Z xivh: What will probably end up happening is that I will fail miserably and be back here in a month and a half asking for help again.
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2019-08-09T00:19:24Z aeth: (In case I was unclear, Guile is smaller, at 15 MB)
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2019-08-09T01:06:47Z jcowan: Guile works fine on Windows, though I don't know if it will compile with MSVC, probably not.  You'll have to use MinGW.
2019-08-09T01:07:19Z jcowan: But "fast" and "small" don't go together, unless you use an outboard compiler as various Schemes for microcontrollers have done.
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2019-08-09T01:24:18Z aeth: Yeah, you see that in CL, too. The slowest (CLISP) has the smallest memory footprint (it's just a bytecode interpreter after all). I'm getting 12.5 MB for that, and I think you can get it smaller or it used to be smaller, or something. And SBCL can easily be > 100 MB. I'm getting 89 MB.
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2019-08-09T02:39:38Z jcowan: aeth: How are you measuring them?
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2019-08-09T03:26:35Z nisstyre: aeth: when you refer to the size, are you talking about the amount of memory that the runtime takes up?
2019-08-09T03:27:13Z nisstyre: a sufficiently smart compiler (tm) could strip out things from the runtime that aren't needed
2019-08-09T03:27:29Z nisstyre: and so have a full feature set but a small memory footprint
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2019-08-09T04:09:33Z xivh: One thing I forgot to mention is it's probably running on XP :(
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2019-08-09T04:50:02Z aeth: jcowan: just htop on a blank REPL session, there's probably a better measure
2019-08-09T04:51:21Z aeth: nisstyre: in a typical CL implementation, that's hard because the implementation could be using the language itself, even features your program isn't using, so the gain might not be that big. I'm not sure about Scheme.
2019-08-09T04:51:50Z lockywolf: What's the difference between (guard) and (with-exception-handler)?
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2019-08-09T04:56:20Z lockywolf: (guard) is implemented in terms of (with-exception-handler)?
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2019-08-09T11:09:03Z ecraven: in pure r7rs-small, how do I read an entire file with read-bytevector?
2019-08-09T11:09:21Z ecraven: as there is no way to get the proper length, and no value I can pass that says "read it all", I just have to pass some really really large value??
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2019-08-09T11:39:00Z jcowan: ecraven: Yes, there's nothing better.  But you can abstract it into a procedure that reads chunks of reasonable sizes and then applies bytevector-append to the final list of them.
2019-08-09T11:40:35Z ecraven: was this a deliberate elision in r7rs-small, or did it just not come up?
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2019-08-09T12:03:11Z jcowan: Didn't come up IIRC.  Note that there are no similar procedures to read a whole file as a string or a list of S-expressions either.
2019-08-09T12:03:21Z jcowan: However, the pre-SRFI https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/FilesAdvancedCowan.md has all these things.
2019-08-09T12:04:52Z jcowan: Bytevectors were kept minimal because we thought they'd mostly be used as a building block for other homogeneous vectors, but they've turned out to be much more useful in their own right.  Consequently, SRFI 160 makes it a SHOULD that its u8vectors are the same thing as bytevectors.
2019-08-09T12:05:31Z jcowan: (can't be a MUST because they are distinct in Guile)
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2019-08-09T12:20:39Z lloda: Guile did that wrong :-/
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2019-08-09T12:36:47Z ecraven: can't it be changed?
2019-08-09T12:37:11Z ecraven: jcowan: for me, bytevectors are very important for actual data processing, as most data is *not* text..
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2019-08-09T12:55:47Z ecraven: I'd love (standardised) displaced bytevectors that I can use to just access shared memory, or memory from the FFI, or even just smaller parts of larger bytevectors
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2019-08-09T13:02:05Z ecraven: (for zero-copy working on complex data, like memory-mapped files)
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2019-08-09T13:58:00Z jcowan: ecraven: A great idea:  Ready ... set ... write a SRFI!
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2019-08-09T15:01:53Z ecraven: jcowan: that srfi would mandate that any procedure that works on a bytevector also works on a displaced-bytevector, not sure anyone would ever consider implementing it :-/
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2019-08-09T15:03:06Z ecraven: a very slightly related question.. how do Schemes usually implement polymorphic arithmetic functions? are they internally just (cond ((and (fixnum? a) (fixnum? b)) (fx+ a b)) ((and (fixnum? a) (flonum? b)) (fl+ (->fl a) b)) ..)?
2019-08-09T15:03:26Z amz3: write the SRFI and they will come ;)
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2019-08-09T15:14:52Z Riastradh: ecraven: In MIT Scheme, it is hand-written dispatch code.  In Scheme48, it is done with a structured predicate dispatch system.
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2019-08-09T15:22:00Z jcowan: ecraven: I'm writing code for $EMPLOYER that parses displaced substrings, albeit a simple case: it just carries around the string and the start position and returns either a value and the new start position, or else None and the old start position.  That way I get a little backtracking with recursive-descent code without the whole burden of a PEG parser.
2019-08-09T15:22:27Z jcowan: Effectively the end position is always the physical end, and I stop when start = length.
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2019-08-09T16:02:21Z ecraven: Riastradh: but it is in essence what I posted? nothing more magical going on there?
2019-08-09T16:02:54Z Riastradh: ecraven: Pretty much.
2019-08-09T16:02:56Z ecraven: Riastradh: whereabouts in the mit sources do I find that code?
2019-08-09T16:03:18Z Riastradh: src/runtime/arith.scm
2019-08-09T16:03:22Z ecraven: thanks
2019-08-09T16:03:27Z Riastradh: also src/runtime/primitive-arithmetic.scm for some of the, well, primitives.
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2019-08-09T16:05:09Z ecraven: Riastradh: did you ever get around to doing more work on nan-boxing in mit scheme?
2019-08-09T16:05:12Z Riastradh: In Haskell it works quite differently -- and I think considerably more sensibly, but not nice without static types.  Instead of having a single operation + that determines at run-time which logic to use, you use the type system to specify which + operation you mean -- integer, fraction, floating-point, &c.
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2019-08-09T16:06:06Z ecraven: that is hard to achieve without static typing though :-/
2019-08-09T16:06:21Z ecraven: it would be nice if the system was *extensible* to further types of "numbers"
2019-08-09T16:06:34Z ecraven: thus everything leads back to generic functions with predicate dispatch :P
2019-08-09T16:06:36Z Riastradh: And in Haskell you can define what operation + does on your types.
2019-08-09T16:07:12Z Riastradh: So you can look at code, and determine `Aha!  This arithmetic is integer arithmetic.' just by looking at it, rather than having to run it to find what specific values of numbers get fed in.
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2019-08-09T16:07:31Z Riastradh: But you don't have to write it like (int:+ x y), (flo:* x y), &c.
2019-08-09T16:07:46Z ecraven: how do you write it? define the types of x and y to be integer?
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2019-08-09T16:09:00Z Riastradh: Yes.  Effectively, the + function takes a third parameter which is the dictionary of actual operations, and Haskell infers which dictionary to pass in based on the static types of the argument expressions -- or, the function you're defining in terms of + will also take such a dictionary of operations and just pass it along to +, if it's generic.
2019-08-09T16:09:05Z ecraven: Riastradh: what does (copy x) do in arith.scm?
2019-08-09T16:09:21Z Riastradh: ecraven: Semantically the same as x.  Copies the definition of x in-line.
2019-08-09T16:09:33Z ecraven: so it should rather be named (inline x)? :D
2019-08-09T16:09:40Z ecraven: thanks for explaining
2019-08-09T16:10:20Z ecraven: do you happen to know whereabouts in Scheme48's codebase the arithmetic lives?
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2019-08-09T16:11:52Z Riastradh: scheme/rts/xnum.scm, roughly.  The byte code interpreter takes care of fixnum and flonum arithmetic for basic operations in `hardware', and traps to `software' for anything else.
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2019-08-09T16:12:32Z Riastradh: That's what all the define-opcode-extension, make-opcode-generic!, and extend-opcode! things are about.
2019-08-09T16:12:59Z Riastradh: The `software' then invokes the generic methods &+, &-, &c.
2019-08-09T16:13:29Z ecraven: is it just me, or is chez's source really not that easy to understand?
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2019-08-09T16:13:43Z Riastradh: No idea, never tried to understand it.
2019-08-09T16:13:47Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks, this looks like an interesting question to understand, how the various schemes handle arithmetic
2019-08-09T16:14:45Z Riastradh: See also scheme/rts/*num.scm for the implementations in `software' for arithmetic not handled by the `hardware'.
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2019-08-09T16:17:01Z ecraven: thanks for the explanations. I have to run, but I'll look at this some more..
2019-08-09T16:17:11Z ecraven: does any Scheme have good support for unboxed flonums? (apart from stalin)?
2019-08-09T16:17:43Z Riastradh: `Good', no, but you can get them in MIT Scheme within an expression and store them in floating-point vectors.
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2019-08-09T16:29:09Z hh47: ;Unbalanced close parenthesis: #\] returned when using (environment-bound-names #[environment 12]), Any way to fix this?
2019-08-09T16:29:36Z hh47: above using mit-scheme
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2019-08-09T16:30:53Z Riastradh: hh47: What were you doing?
2019-08-09T16:32:37Z hh47: entered (nearest-repl/environment) and tried to query the environment
2019-08-09T16:32:59Z Riastradh: Can you show a complete transcript of exactly what you typed, and exactly what the response was?
2019-08-09T16:34:22Z hh47: 1 ]=> (nearest-repl/environment)
2019-08-09T16:34:23Z hh47: ;Value: #[environment 12]
2019-08-09T16:34:23Z hh47: ]=> (environment-bound-names #[environment 12])
2019-08-09T16:34:23Z hh47: ;Unbalanced close parenthesis: #\]
2019-08-09T16:35:23Z Riastradh: Use #@12 to refer back to these hash numbers rather than #[environment 12].
2019-08-09T16:36:08Z Riastradh: (it looks like a bug in the parser, though; I think that is supposed to work)
2019-08-09T16:36:12Z hh47: got it! thanks
2019-08-09T16:36:42Z hh47: headache relieved
2019-08-09T16:38:34Z Riastradh: Heh.
2019-08-09T16:38:37Z Riastradh:   (if (close-bracket-ok? ctx)
2019-08-09T16:38:37Z Riastradh:       (error:unbalanced-close char))
2019-08-09T16:38:41Z Riastradh: missing (not ...)
2019-08-09T16:42:48Z hh47: tried that returns;
2019-08-09T16:42:52Z hh47: (if (close-bracket-ok? ctx)
2019-08-09T16:42:52Z hh47: (error:unbalanced-close char))
2019-08-09T16:42:53Z hh47: Error code 0x1 (unbound-variable).
2019-08-09T16:42:53Z hh47: Expression: [variable ctx 0x2004290]
2019-08-09T16:42:53Z hh47: Environment: [environment from [vector 0x1be5840] 0x1369a20]
2019-08-09T16:42:53Z hh47: Return code: combination-save-value
2019-08-09T16:42:53Z hh47: ;Unbound variable: ctx
2019-08-09T16:43:03Z Riastradh: Oh, I was just quoting the buggy code in the reader.
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2019-08-09T16:43:46Z hh47: first answer should do.
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2019-08-09T17:43:06Z amz3: what's up #scheme?!
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2019-08-09T17:44:58Z amz3: haskell seems nice
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2019-08-09T18:43:42Z jcowan: SRFI 128 comparators are a special case of Haskell type classes.  This being Scheme, of course you have to pass the comparator explicitly.  There will be other such special cases (there's a pre-SRFI for functors/idioms/monads) but IMO there is no real use in Scheme for a general typeclass framework: they are just records that contain well-chosen procedures (for comparators, type?, =, <, and hash).
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2019-08-10T13:51:00Z lockywolf_: How to get an obarray in scheme?
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2019-08-10T14:10:48Z ecraven: depends on the Scheme, but Scheme isn't CL, not all have an obarray
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2019-08-10T17:55:54Z wasamasa: scheme isn't elisp either
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2019-08-10T18:11:34Z pjb: wasamasa: more or less: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2019-08-10T18:11:34Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/X56wi8kOXh
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2019-08-10T22:12:08Z jcowan: lockywolf__: Scheme has multiple environments that map global variables (as symbols) to their values, but there are limitations: you can't just create one on the fly, and the only guaranteed-mutable one is the interaction environment used by the REPL.
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2019-08-11T00:26:00Z Elronnd: I have this let declaration http://ix.io/1Rhj/, but I get from it the error 'let* variable list is messed up?'.  What could it mean?
2019-08-11T00:26:03Z Elronnd: it looks fine to me
2019-08-11T00:30:23Z pjb: Elronnd: this is not a form. It's missing parentheses.
2019-08-11T00:32:09Z Elronnd: it is?  Where?
2019-08-11T00:33:00Z Elronnd: I mean, there's a body underneath that, but the error is in the let
2019-08-11T00:35:07Z pjb: Oh, in that case, let me activate my telephatic debugging superpower.
2019-08-11T00:37:29Z Elronnd: lol
2019-08-11T00:37:37Z Elronnd: just curious if there's anything obvious there I'm missing
2019-08-11T00:38:24Z pjb: Elronnd: If you don't understand the error message from one scheme implementation, a good trick is to try your code in another implementation. It will give a different error message that you may understand better.
2019-08-11T00:38:39Z pjb: Keep 3 or 4 implementations at hand, and always try your code in several of them.
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2019-08-11T01:06:32Z Elronnd: I may or may not be relying on a scheme-specific feature
2019-08-11T01:06:40Z Elronnd: specifically float-vector, which doesn't seem to be supported anywhere else
2019-08-11T01:18:12Z pjb: Elronnd: hence the point of writing pure r7rs code.
2019-08-11T02:04:51Z Elronnd: pjb: but speed
2019-08-11T02:08:06Z pjb: Write better implementations for speed.
2019-08-11T02:09:53Z Elronnd: ain't nobody got time fo' that!
2019-08-11T02:10:04Z Elronnd: also my code is a lot simpler if it can use the float-vector type
2019-08-11T02:32:41Z Elronnd: woot
2019-08-11T02:32:45Z Elronnd: linear algebra lib is working
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2019-08-11T07:35:40Z wasamasa: I guess racket wins the real-world language contest: https://docs.racket-lang.org/left-pad/index.html
2019-08-11T07:42:59Z Elronnd: it's finally webscale
2019-08-11T07:44:06Z wasamasa: I wonder whether to port that to CHICKEN or better, write a r7rs version so that it can land on snow2
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2019-08-11T09:25:10Z mdhughes: Memes aside, everyone does have that already: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/srfi-13#selection
2019-08-11T09:25:40Z mdhughes: pad-left.js was a problem because it was a single-function dependency for a shitload of other npm modules.
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2019-08-11T14:48:48Z rain2: I don't think that was the problem
2019-08-11T14:48:57Z rain2: the issue was someone malicious replaced it with bad code
2019-08-11T14:59:07Z gwatt: That might have happened, but the original problem was npm removed it from the package repository at the author's request, breaking everything that depended upon it.
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2019-08-11T15:04:58Z mdhughes: gwatt is right. pad-left wasn't a vuln. There are other packages where that's happened, tho.
2019-08-11T15:07:30Z rain2: ah thank you for the correction
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2019-08-11T15:39:59Z dwdv: That's also one of my fears with all these emacs melpa packages that I've installed over the years. Gets kind of cumbersome to check each and everyone of them upon upgrading.
2019-08-11T15:42:37Z dwdv: And each time it tries to install new deps.
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2019-08-11T16:57:20Z amz3: dwdv: at least you use melpa as non-priviledge user..
2019-08-11T16:57:39Z amz3: dwdv: fwiw, guix has support for melpa
2019-08-11T16:58:45Z amz3: I will ask again, do you know scheme implementations coming with hooks like https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Hooks.html#Hooks
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2019-08-11T17:04:10Z amz3: elisp has them https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Hooks.html#Hooks
2019-08-11T17:05:04Z wasamasa: I remember a C4 egg providing something similar
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2019-08-11T17:08:15Z amz3: there is also https://quickref.common-lisp.net/cl-hooks.html
2019-08-11T17:08:25Z amz3: wasamasa: thank you! I will look into it
2019-08-11T17:08:31Z wasamasa: I can't find it again though
2019-08-11T17:08:37Z wasamasa: and I suspect it wasn't used much
2019-08-11T17:08:58Z wasamasa: if you want to search along, it should be on http://eggs.call-cc.org/4/#macros
2019-08-11T17:09:03Z wasamasa: well, without the #macros part
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2019-08-11T17:13:55Z wasamasa: maybe I'm thinking of http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/autoload instead
2019-08-11T17:19:44Z amz3: I will propose a SRFI based on Guile hooks, I need them for SRFI-167 / SRFI-168 and possibly any abstraction built on top of them that requires something like validation (schema-on-write) or indices book keeping.
2019-08-11T17:21:50Z amz3: I would have liked to sort this out before proposing SRFI-167 and SRFI-168, but I was under the impression that validation et al. was a somekind of dream, now I think it is really possible and does provide value.
2019-08-11T17:22:02Z amz3: also hooks might be useful on their own as extension mechanism
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2019-08-13T14:35:29Z giuseppe_: hello all, guys i wanted to start with scheme, i like the idea of it being a minimalist lispy language
2019-08-13T14:35:40Z giuseppe_: which implementation should i go with?
2019-08-13T14:36:04Z gwatt: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
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2019-08-13T14:38:01Z dTal: that's pretty obsolete though
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2019-08-13T14:40:52Z dTal: I'd say the options boil down to Chez for the nicest, purest, fastest Scheme experience, Racket for the batteries-included, beautifully documented, next-gen experience, and maybe Chicken for something a bit in between that also compiles to C if that's your thing.
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2019-08-13T14:41:51Z dTal: everything else is pretty niche for someone who just wants to get started playing with the language.
2019-08-13T14:42:13Z giuseppe_: ok dTal but then a library/module which is existing for example for Chicken, won't work onn Chez or gerbil?
2019-08-13T14:42:18Z giuseppe_: or how does it work?
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2019-08-13T14:44:16Z dTal: giuseppe_: there are different "revisions" of the language spec. Chicken is R5RS. Chez is R6RS.
2019-08-13T14:45:31Z dTal: In addition, many important things are not found in the spec at all, so each implementation picks its own way to do things. This means that libraries that interface with the outside world tend not to be portable between implementations
2019-08-13T14:47:05Z dTal: however, "porting" libraries is not so very hard, so there's a lot of overlap between the libraries available for different implementations
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2019-08-13T14:47:13Z dTal: oh
2019-08-13T14:47:14Z dTal: bye
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2019-08-13T15:09:22Z gwatt: dTal: I don't wingo's blog post is *that* out of date.
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2019-08-13T15:40:29Z dTal: gwatt: the things it says about the implementations it mentions still hold basically true, but the omission of Chez is pretty serious I think
2019-08-13T15:42:37Z dTal: additionally, it covers a lot of stuff that's irrelevant to a newcomer to Scheme - it's unlikely that someone who just wants to get started playing with Scheme will be interested in whether it has a stable C ABI
2019-08-13T15:43:28Z dTal: although that's a separate concern than "out of date"
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2019-08-13T15:49:47Z amz3: chez might be missing because at the time of writing it was not open-source
2019-08-13T15:50:08Z amz3: dTal: +1 on chez, but +2 on arew
2019-08-13T15:50:15Z amz3: ;)
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2019-08-13T15:50:41Z dTal: arew?
2019-08-13T15:52:20Z dTal: and yes, I agree - it does actually briefly mention it as a "fine implementation" next to several others, but that sells it quite short of "the fastest Scheme currently in existence, and also the nicest to use from the command line"
2019-08-13T15:53:20Z dTal: (I'm not sure if that last is 100% true, but it's certainly *mostly* true from what I've seen - most Scheme's don't even bother with readline out of the box, let alone a complete expression editor)
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2019-08-13T15:57:01Z amz3: I am not well versed into exp editor
2019-08-13T15:57:16Z amz3: dTal: arew is my "fork" of chez with r7rs libraries
2019-08-13T15:57:27Z amz3: dTal: See the mailing list
2019-08-13T15:57:57Z amz3: dTal: you did not mention step debugger :)
2019-08-13T15:58:20Z amz3: I don't use it much, but some people can not code without such tool
2019-08-13T15:58:28Z dTal: I am not well versed in the step debugger :)
2019-08-13T15:59:12Z amz3: scheme --debug-on-exception does open the debugger, then you hit "i" then enter, then "sl" then enter it will show you something
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2019-08-13T17:12:26Z gwatt: dTal: I don't think the omission of Chez Scheme is that bad. The expression editor is clearly top of its class, but Chez Scheme as a whole still lacks good libraries, or at least a good index of libraries.
2019-08-13T17:18:12Z wasamasa: Chez is still interesting because it's a commercial-grade Scheme
2019-08-13T17:18:28Z wasamasa: hence why it didn't show up in that list at all
2019-08-13T17:18:43Z wasamasa: no way I'll touch it though, it's R6RS
2019-08-13T17:20:09Z gwatt: I have no problem with r6rs
2019-08-13T17:22:28Z dTal: what's wrong with R6RS, as a user?
2019-08-13T17:22:43Z aeth: It's different
2019-08-13T17:22:56Z Zipheir: wasamasa: That's a silly attitude.
2019-08-13T17:22:56Z wasamasa: what's wrong with C++, as a user?
2019-08-13T17:23:28Z Zipheir: ... and that's a silly comparison.
2019-08-13T17:23:38Z dTal: That's such a silly response I don't know how to respond.
2019-08-13T17:23:41Z wasamasa: coming from C, it's apt
2019-08-13T17:24:48Z gwatt: Ehhhhh, C++ is far different from C than R6RS is from R5RS or R7RS.
2019-08-13T17:25:36Z dTal: Instead of befuddlingly inappropriate analogies... what's actually wrong with R6RS, specifically?
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2019-08-13T17:26:20Z wasamasa: everything is overly complicated to implement
2019-08-13T17:26:28Z dTal: as a user?
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2019-08-13T17:27:13Z dTal: (sorry I forgot to head off that answer a second time around)
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2019-08-13T17:27:27Z wasamasa: similarly, it's more complicated to use for no good reason
2019-08-13T17:27:40Z wasamasa: or if you prefer, to reason about
2019-08-13T17:28:25Z wasamasa: now that r7rs-small is around, it's a good compromise between both
2019-08-13T17:28:26Z dTal: for example?
2019-08-13T17:28:29Z Zipheir: The core R6 language is very close to R7, so if one's "complicated to use" so is the other.
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2019-08-13T17:28:36Z wasamasa: syntax-case
2019-08-13T17:28:50Z wasamasa: the core libraries
2019-08-13T17:28:59Z wasamasa: how modules work
2019-08-13T17:29:30Z wasamasa: read a paper about r6rs to r7rs interoperability
2019-08-13T17:29:38Z dTal: Chez supports syntax-rules
2019-08-13T17:29:44Z dTal: if you prefer that sort of thing
2019-08-13T17:29:48Z wasamasa: sure, but that's not what you use
2019-08-13T17:30:00Z gwatt: depends on the macro I'm defining
2019-08-13T17:30:07Z dTal: you can use whatever you want
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2019-08-13T17:30:22Z wasamasa: there's some people who categorically answer macro questions with syntax-case, then act surprised if your Scheme doesn't have it
2019-08-13T17:30:45Z dTal: well Chez has both, so I don't really see why you're complaining
2019-08-13T17:31:10Z wasamasa: I'm explaining you why I don't use it, lol
2019-08-13T17:31:37Z dTal: and I'm saying that explanation doesn't appear to make a lot of sense
2019-08-13T17:32:07Z dTal: you don't use it because it supports a construct you don't like?
2019-08-13T17:32:21Z wasamasa: I don't like languages with ugly design, yes
2019-08-13T17:32:43Z wasamasa: like C++, CL, Scala, ...
2019-08-13T17:33:00Z gwatt: dTal: to be fair, once you have syntax-case, syntax-rules is trivial to implement on top of it. In fact, syntax-rules came first and syntax-case is a generalization of syntax-rules that preserves hygiene by default and allows escaping to a lower level.
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2019-08-13T17:33:48Z dTal: gwatt: right, but unlike most Schemers I *do* distinguish between "trivial to implement" and "fully supported" :P
2019-08-13T17:34:41Z gwatt: dTal: you might also like this blogpost: https://weinholt.se/articles/r7rs-vs-r6rs/
2019-08-13T17:35:06Z dTal: gwatt: yes I've read it :)
2019-08-13T17:35:13Z gwatt: fair nuf
2019-08-13T17:35:21Z Zipheir: wasamasa: That's still utterly silly.  It's like the programmer's Godwin's Law.  "I don't like C++, either."  If R6RS is an "ugly design", so are the other RnRSs.
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2019-08-13T17:36:06Z dTal: I've internalized the "R6RS is friendly for users" message, which is why I was querying wasamasa about why he dislikes R6RS, *as a user*
2019-08-13T17:38:35Z dTal: I can't help but notice that there are quite a few libraries that work on all compliant R6RS implementations, which shows that R6RS did achieve a useful level of portability, which is very nice
2019-08-13T17:38:50Z wasamasa: Zipheir: yeah, no, API design matters
2019-08-13T17:38:58Z Zipheir: Yeah, you won't notice much of a difference from any well-featured R5/R7RS implementation if you're just programming with Chez.
2019-08-13T17:39:34Z aeth: well, my 2¢ is that "user friendly" is "does what users expect" so something that's too different will probably have people complain
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2019-08-13T17:40:35Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Which API, and what specific flaws?
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2019-08-13T17:41:14Z dTal: I'm curious what specifically you can't elegantly achieve in Chez that you couldn't achieve in any compliant R5RS implementation
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2019-08-13T17:41:57Z dTal: given than Chez is fully R5RS compliant
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2019-08-13T17:42:39Z aeth: dTal: In practice, few write r5rs. Most write implementation-specific, extended r5rs afaik.
2019-08-13T17:43:28Z Zipheir: aeth: There are some things for which you'd need R5RS compat. for, e.g. mutating strings, if you ever wanted to do that.
2019-08-13T17:43:46Z Zipheir: (from an R6RS implementation, of course.)
2019-08-13T17:44:30Z gwatt: Zipheir: I believe the (rnrs mutable-strings) library is all you really need for that.
2019-08-13T17:44:51Z aeth: Why immutable strings? Languages afaik usually add those to make up for not having symbols, and thus using strings in way more places where they shouldn't have been used in the first place.
2019-08-13T17:45:30Z Zipheir: Efficiency, and there's barely any point to mutating strings in a Unicode world.
2019-08-13T17:46:14Z Zipheir: Strings are mutable again in R7.  But we've got SRFI 135 texts, as well.
2019-08-13T17:46:58Z aeth: Yes, efficiency, but efficiency for strings being used in cases that 9/10 of the time are more idiomatic as symbols in a Lisp
2019-08-13T17:47:01Z aeth: afaik
2019-08-13T17:47:28Z amz3: interesting conversation
2019-08-13T17:47:41Z aeth: I guess maybe there are times where they'd be used as hash table indices on certain input where you might not want to have a conversion step
2019-08-13T17:49:06Z Zipheir: aeth: You may be interested in the immutable-string rationale from R6/SRFI 135: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-135/srfi-135.html
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2019-08-13T17:49:56Z aeth: Zipheir: I buy the space argument :-p
2019-08-13T17:50:23Z aeth: You're probably storing your mutable strings internally as UTF-32 which is probably a waste
2019-08-13T17:51:17Z aeth: And that will come up with basically any string usage.
2019-08-13T17:51:35Z Zipheir: Yeah, I imagine it would be a nightmare to figure out a sane way to mutate UTF-8- or "UTF-16"-encoded strings.
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2019-08-13T17:54:13Z amz3: what about r7rs large is it good design?
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2019-08-13T17:58:40Z aeth: amz3: the resident expert on r7rs is jcowan so I'd ask jcowan if it's a good design
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2019-08-13T19:15:02Z jcowan: I have no trouble with R6RS as a user, provided I don't have to do explicit phasing.
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2019-08-13T19:15:44Z Riastradh: Implicit phasing is evil.  What's wrong with specifying whether you mean to load the launch-the-missiles module at run-time or build-time?
2019-08-13T19:16:18Z gwatt: Riastradh: what if I want both?
2019-08-13T19:16:23Z jcowan: Riastradh: Racket explicit phasing is fine, but R6RS explicit phasing is the worst of both worlds.
2019-08-13T19:16:31Z Riastradh: gwatt: Then ask for both?
2019-08-13T19:16:40Z Riastradh: Oh, right, I forgot that it was completely hosed in the R6RS.
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2019-08-13T19:17:42Z gwatt: how is racket different from r6rs wrt explicit phasing?
2019-08-13T19:17:43Z jcowan: (In Racket the phases are completely separated, but in R6RS all you can do is make something undefined at particular phases; you cannot have a different definition for it.)
2019-08-13T19:18:15Z jcowan: so if foo exists at run time, it may or may not exist at compile time, but if it does, the definition must be exactly the same.
2019-08-13T19:18:53Z jcowan: whereas in Racket foo-at-run-time and foo-at-compile-time don't have anything to do with one another unless you want them to.
2019-08-13T19:19:36Z jcowan: So R6RS explicit phasing is implicit phasing + pointless ceremony
2019-08-13T19:20:11Z jcowan: particularly because support for implicit phasing is optional in R6RS
2019-08-13T19:21:56Z aeth: I've never encountered this in Scheme. Is r6rs's feature here basically inspired by CL's eval-when or something?
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2019-08-13T19:23:31Z gwatt: jcowan: What are some uses for allowing different bindings at runtime vs compile time? I can think of macro keywords but am having trouble coming up with other users. Macro keywords are pretty big though...
2019-08-13T19:24:02Z Riastradh: Define a parser for some syntax in a module.  (Write automatic tests for it in another module, say -- all run-time business, as programs that operate on program text.)
2019-08-13T19:24:10Z Riastradh: Define a macro _using_ that parser in another module.
2019-08-13T19:24:27Z Riastradh: The macro module must import the parser module at expand-time, not at run-time.
2019-08-13T19:25:27Z jcowan: There is no particular reason why your extensions to the compiler (which is what macros are) should use the same vocabulary as code that uses those extensions.
2019-08-13T19:25:30Z Riastradh: (define-syntax fancy-macro (lambda (stx) (generate-output (parse-input stx))))
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2019-08-13T19:26:34Z jcowan: But R6RS has a dumbed-down version of this.
2019-08-13T19:26:58Z jcowan: Any kind of phasing system is better than explicit calls to eval-when, though!
2019-08-13T19:27:46Z jcowan: In ISLisp, only a subset of the standard library is available at expansion time, so that compilers don't have to cope with random side effects.  (ISLisp doesn't have a module system.)
2019-08-13T19:27:57Z gwatt: Riastradh: in that example do you need to have generate-output or parse-input refer to different definitions depending on the phase?
2019-08-13T19:29:02Z Riastradh: gwatt: Maybe a system parameter like (cpu-architecture).
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2019-08-13T19:32:18Z amz3: I understand some of it.
2019-08-13T19:34:06Z Riastradh: (`Completely hosed' is wrong; I should have said: `I forgot how the R6RS's system worked'.)
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2019-08-13T19:37:29Z jcowan: Specifically, ISLisp disallows side-effects on the environment (thus no I/O at expand time), on the macro form itself, and on externally visible data such as the p-list of a symbol.
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2019-08-13T19:41:04Z jcowan: In practice you should probably only use pure and functional procedures in an ISLisp macro (which is like a CL macro otherwise).
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2019-08-13T20:28:00Z jcowan: Riastradh: I have a note here to make a SRFI for logistic functions, with a link to the MIT source at <http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/arith.scm>.  What procedures should I expose?
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2019-08-13T21:42:00Z Riastradh: jcowan: Heh.  I'd say: definitely logsumexp, logistic, logit; probably log1mexp, log1pexp, logit-exp, log-logistic; maybe logistic-1/2, logit1/2+.
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2019-08-13T21:43:49Z Riastradh: jcowan: (logistic-1/2 and logit1/2+ are only `maybe' because they're just scaled versions of tanh and artanh, respectively.)
2019-08-13T21:44:35Z jcowan: some of those we already have in SRFI 144 = R6RS + math.h
2019-08-13T21:44:44Z jcowan: I think so, anyhow.
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2019-08-13T21:45:45Z Riastradh: Which ones, besides tanh and artanh (which appear, in SRFI 144, to be limited to real inputs)?
2019-08-13T21:46:09Z Riastradh: (tanh and artanh should be provided as complex functions; no need for logistic-1/2 or logit1/2+ to handle nonreal inputs.)
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2019-08-13T21:47:46Z jcowan: 144 is all about flonums, so naturally limited
2019-08-13T21:48:52Z jcowan: tanh (scheme inexact) is complex tanh; fl-tanh (scheme flonum) is real tanh
2019-08-13T21:50:24Z Riastradh: OK, good.  So, focus on logsumexp, logistic, and logit; consider log1mexp, log1pexp, logit-exp, and log-logistic; and it wouldn't hurt to have logistic-1/2 and logit1/2+ but it's a very very small difference from tanh/artanh.
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2019-08-13T21:52:22Z Riastradh: You should also require bounds on the forward relative error so that it's actually reliably useful to have them, and in the documentation you should have a plot of the function and of its condition number, and for the complex functions, a plot of the branch cut.
2019-08-13T21:54:47Z Riastradh: The MIT Scheme reference manual (in git master) has documentation for these too, including the aforementioned plots.
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2019-08-13T22:12:57Z jcowan: Thanks
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2019-08-13T23:03:58Z Riastradh: jcowan: You should use the name error-bound for the largest relative error, and ulp-of-one for the distance from 1 to the next larger floating-point number in magnitude.
2019-08-13T23:05:17Z Riastradh: Avoid calling it `epsilon' because nobody can agree on which one that means.
2019-08-13T23:06:36Z Riastradh: jcowan: SRFI 144 has a typo in the definition of fllog1+.
2019-08-13T23:06:48Z Riastradh: Returns (log<sub><i>e</i></sub> (<em>x</em>+ 1),
2019-08-13T23:06:50Z Riastradh: should be
2019-08-13T23:07:00Z Riastradh: Returns (log<sub><i>e</i></sub> (+ <em>x</em> 1)),
2019-08-13T23:09:27Z jcowan: The definitions are meant to be mathematics, not Scheme.
2019-08-13T23:09:45Z Riastradh: OK, but the parentheses aren't even balanced.
2019-08-13T23:10:19Z jcowan: Right, the first ( should be deleted.  I'll notify Art.
2019-08-13T23:10:28Z Riastradh: OK.  Then there should be a space after the x.
2019-08-13T23:10:41Z Riastradh: And maybe put it in the other order so the name is clearer.
2019-08-13T23:10:45Z Riastradh: Returns log<sub><i>e</i></sub> (1 + <em>x</em>),
2019-08-13T23:10:57Z Riastradh: (also this should use TeX and/or mathml, not hokey HTML!)
2019-08-13T23:11:48Z jcowan: The SRFI process requires SRFIs to be written in HTML, preferably HTML 3.2
2019-08-13T23:12:03Z Riastradh: Heh.  Maybe the SRFI process should be updated for this millennium.
2019-08-13T23:12:40Z jcowan: Feel free to talk to Art about it yourself.
2019-08-13T23:13:45Z dTal: HTML seems like a sensible conservative choice. SRFIs don't have to be elaborately typeset, and unicode handles quite a lot of math notation now.
2019-08-13T23:14:29Z jcowan: There was an unmusical Persian / With a curious sort of perversion / He thought that the part / That was words was by Art / And he thought that the tunes were Gilbertian.  —Isaac Asimov
2019-08-13T23:14:44Z jcowan: possibly s/There was an/A certain
2019-08-13T23:17:00Z aeth: SRFI html hah
2019-08-13T23:17:05Z aeth: xhtml is the future
2019-08-13T23:17:07Z aeth: any day now
2019-08-13T23:17:10Z jcowan: https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr25/
2019-08-13T23:17:17Z jcowan: xhtml is the future of the past
2019-08-13T23:18:14Z aeth: XHTML isn't a thing anymore because the web browser vendors, not surprisingly, didn't like losing their grip on the market, which depends on parsing HTML that's so complicated with edge cases that only they can correctly do it for all websites.
2019-08-13T23:18:24Z aeth: As opposed to using an XML parser that just about any language has 5 of
2019-08-13T23:19:47Z Riastradh: ...like XML has no complicated edge cases...
2019-08-13T23:19:50Z aeth: I'm surprised there's only one XML SRFI, though. https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-107/srfi-107.html
2019-08-13T23:20:32Z aeth: Riastradh: The difference is that it's multilingually handled edge cases as opposed to being handled in essentially ~4~ ~3~ 2 browser engines
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2019-08-13T23:21:02Z jcowan: Oh, I thought you meant "only one SRFI in X(HT)ML"
2019-08-13T23:21:10Z aeth: Riastradh: XML is awful, but it's not HTML awful
2019-08-13T23:21:22Z aeth: jcowan: if XHTML was allowed that SRFI could be written in itself
2019-08-13T23:21:24Z jcowan: I considered writing an XML SRFI and then a MicroXML SRFI, but decided not to
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2019-08-13T23:21:53Z jcowan: Oh, it's allowed all right.  Some though not all of my SRFIs are well-formed XHTML.
2019-08-13T23:22:11Z aeth: Ah, then I'm surprised that that isn't. Although maybe it is
2019-08-13T23:22:22Z jcowan: 107 is just about XML lexical syntax, and I suspect it's not going anywhere.
2019-08-13T23:22:32Z jcowan: There will be SRFIs for CSV, DSV, and JSON, though.
2019-08-13T23:23:48Z aeth: jcowan: Why won't there be an XML SRFI?
2019-08-13T23:24:09Z aeth: JSON's simpler and a higher priority, but there's still a ton of XML
2019-08-13T23:24:24Z jcowan: I don't feel like writing a portable XML parser, and most people seem to feel that SXML (the software, not the S-expression format) is a disaster
2019-08-13T23:24:41Z Riastradh: aeth: Maybe start with a something before you pursue a SRFI for a something?
2019-08-13T23:25:01Z jcowan: I've written an HTML (not HTML5) parser and a MicroXML parser, and I'm kinda done with that.
2019-08-13T23:25:09Z jcowan: (not in Scheme)
2019-08-13T23:26:53Z aeth: Riastradh: huh?
2019-08-13T23:29:08Z Riastradh: aeth: What is the XML parser API that you want to see in a SRFI?
2019-08-13T23:30:59Z aeth: Riastradh: actually, there needs to be two directions to any data format, not just a parser... the other direction would be generating, which is much easier, like (foo 42) => "<foo> 42 </foo>" although the attributes part like <foo bar="baz"> is a tricky thing to do in a mapping like that.
2019-08-13T23:31:20Z aeth: Riastradh: but I guess once you go one direction, you now have an intermediate format you can parse into for the harder direction
2019-08-13T23:33:42Z aeth: JSON generation is pretty tricky, though, because you might not want to have to generate a lot of intermediate lists just to write JSON. With XML, it'd be harder to avoid so you'd probably just tolerate it.
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2019-08-13T23:52:08Z aeth: Riastradh: I don't really expect it to happen, though
2019-08-14T00:02:43Z Riastradh: You've summarized a mapping between XML and S-expressions, but what is the API you would want to see?
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2019-08-14T00:13:21Z aeth: Riastradh: Writing it would need at least two macros and a procedure. Two because one can generate a completely static string at compile time and the other can generate a string that takes in some input. But I don't think it's really constructive describing it in detail because it won't happen.
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2019-08-14T00:15:57Z Riastradh: Macros?
2019-08-14T00:16:30Z Riastradh: You're talking about some kind of XML templating system?  I assumed you meant an XML parser.
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2019-08-14T00:18:31Z aeth: Riastradh: Two directions, one writes XML the other reads XML. The XML parser would be internally more complicated, but with a simpler API since the API would read it into the intermediate form used by the writer. It would ideally be possible to do a round-trip except for indentation or possibly some ambiguities if there are two representations for the same thing
2019-08-14T00:22:03Z aeth: One or two (or more) procedures would depend on what Scheme can do and what's idiomatic in Scheme. In Common Lisp, you could just pass in a stream to handle both strings and files, so only one function would be required for each direction.
2019-08-14T00:22:22Z aeth: (In Scheme, CL's stream equivalents are called ports iirc)
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2019-08-14T00:25:15Z aeth: I suppose you still might want several ways to do it so you could handle nesting better.
2019-08-14T00:28:00Z aeth: "partially evaluated" even outside of macros might be useful, e.g. generating a format string to use another CL term
2019-08-14T00:33:22Z Riastradh: So, nothing about validation, DTDs, entities, streaming?  Namespaces?  XPath/XQuery?
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2019-08-14T00:40:15Z jcowan: DTDs are obsolete and namespaces can be layered on top.
2019-08-14T00:40:49Z jcowan: aeth: SXML format is a very sensible internal representation; I recommend it.
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2019-08-14T00:54:44Z Riastradh: (I'm not saying you should handle all of these things.  I'm just saying you should be clear on what you're asking for -- and it should be justified by real-world applications' needs.)
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2019-08-14T04:27:36Z CORDIC: Scr
2019-08-14T04:27:47Z CORDIC: [facepalm]
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2019-08-14T07:11:57Z rain2: https://github.com/racket/racket2-rfcs/issues/3#issuecomment-521127693
2019-08-14T07:12:00Z rain2: sad...
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2019-08-14T08:35:58Z mdhughes: whitespace is an error. All code should be left-aligned. While it's harder to read, you save roughly 25% of your life not arguing about indentation styles.
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2019-08-14T08:51:18Z dTal: what's sad?
2019-08-14T09:00:32Z rain2: racket saying they're going to change the language not be s-exp instead of just implementing a new secondary non-s-exp language
2019-08-14T09:01:43Z rain2: and then almost no communication from who made the original suggestion
2019-08-14T09:03:10Z ecraven: wow, I really forgot how tedious writing java code is :-/
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2019-08-14T09:04:38Z ecraven: at least in C++ you can overload [], in java you have String.charAt, JSONArray,get, and a ton of other things that do the same thing ("indexing"), but are all named differently
2019-08-14T09:19:56Z mdhughes: For Java you can always use Groovy, Scala, Beanshell, etc. to get that kind of syntactic sugar.
2019-08-14T09:20:18Z mdhughes: It's best to think of Java itself as an intermediate language to the JVM, not as something you code in directly.
2019-08-14T09:22:32Z ecraven: no chance of that, this code is meant to go back to a pure java codebase at some point :-/
2019-08-14T09:34:55Z dTal: rain2: they *are* implementing a new secondary non s-exp language and they aren't "changing" anything
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2019-08-14T09:38:45Z dTal: mflatt has 8 comments in a thread of 50 comments involving over a dozen people including about a dozen core contributors, so his contribution seems quite proportionate
2019-08-14T09:38:56Z dTal: *half a dozen core contributors
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2019-08-14T13:09:04Z nullnullnull: guys, the website is down
2019-08-14T13:13:50Z ecraven: which one?
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2019-08-14T13:18:25Z nullnullnull: http://library.readscheme.org
2019-08-14T13:18:55Z ecraven: that's been offline for some time :-/
2019-08-14T13:19:01Z nullnullnull: oh
2019-08-14T13:19:19Z nullnullnull: btw what's the difference between scheme and guile and racket?
2019-08-14T13:19:36Z ecraven: guile is an implementation of Scheme
2019-08-14T13:19:50Z ecraven: racket used to be, but it's been moving away from Scheme as RnRS specifies it
2019-08-14T13:20:15Z nullnullnull: so scheme is the core?
2019-08-14T13:20:39Z ecraven: Scheme is the name of a language, which is specified by a standard. but all implementations extend it to various degrees
2019-08-14T13:20:50Z nullnullnull: ah
2019-08-14T13:20:54Z ecraven: there are many implementations, in no particular order: chez, mit, chicken, guile, gauche, chibi, ...
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2019-08-14T13:24:52Z nullnullnull: nice, btw I'm trying to write my first script with scheme (socket connection to check for open connection)
2019-08-14T13:25:06Z nullnullnull: seems like I need to download external library for socket
2019-08-14T13:25:23Z nullnullnull: (let ((s (socket PF_INET SOCK_STREAM 0)))
2019-08-14T13:25:46Z nullnullnull: (connect s AF_INET (inet-pton AF_INET "127.0.0.1") 80)
2019-08-14T13:25:46Z ecraven: which Scheme are you using? I think all the ones I tried except for chez supported sockets in some way
2019-08-14T13:25:49Z amz3: using which scheme implementation?
2019-08-14T13:25:57Z nullnullnull: oh
2019-08-14T13:26:01Z amz3: seems like guile
2019-08-14T13:26:16Z nullnullnull: not guile , sec i will check what is this thing from website
2019-08-14T13:27:31Z nullnullnull: MIT/GNU Scheme microcode 15.3
2019-08-14T13:28:36Z amz3: here you have a specialist with mit/scheme, with the name of ecraven
2019-08-14T13:29:31Z ecraven: what do you want to do exactly? open a tcp client socket?
2019-08-14T13:29:57Z ecraven: (open-tcp-stream-socket "www.schemers.org" 80)
2019-08-14T13:30:25Z ecraven: then you get a textual port, where you can read and write
2019-08-14T13:31:15Z nullnullnull: yes to check for open port
2019-08-14T13:31:17Z nullnullnull: and close connection
2019-08-14T13:31:25Z amz3: that is a port scanner
2019-08-14T13:31:27Z ecraven: not sure you can do that
2019-08-14T13:31:31Z nullnullnull: yes
2019-08-14T13:31:34Z ecraven: with that function, I mean
2019-08-14T13:31:37Z nullnullnull: why mate?
2019-08-14T13:32:38Z nullnullnull: I took this code from here https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Sockets#Scheme
2019-08-14T13:33:43Z ecraven: says right there, works with guile (old version) or chicken (also old version)
2019-08-14T13:34:25Z nullnullnull: oh old version
2019-08-14T13:34:41Z nullnullnull: but why new version doesnt support it?
2019-08-14T13:34:51Z ecraven: it probably does, *I* just don't know exactly how ;)
2019-08-14T13:36:02Z amz3: nullnullnull: I was kidding, ecraven is not a mit/scheme expert ;)
2019-08-14T13:36:15Z amz3: neither do I
2019-08-14T13:36:52Z nullnullnull: oh :D
2019-08-14T13:37:16Z nullnullnull: but why? what u guys expert with :P
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2019-08-14T13:38:41Z ecraven: if you want non-blocking, you need to do this differently anyway.. look at man connect
2019-08-14T13:38:56Z amz3: nullnullnull: I am expert in boredom
2019-08-14T13:39:42Z nullnullnull: oh
2019-08-14T13:39:52Z amz3: nullnullnull: I pratice chez scheme, I implemented sockets in arew scheme
2019-08-14T13:40:08Z amz3: nullnullnull: but I don't recommend arew scheme for newbies
2019-08-14T13:40:44Z nullnullnull: this is not some kind of food right?
2019-08-14T13:41:01Z amz3: nullnullnull: what?
2019-08-14T13:41:22Z amz3: nullnullnull: arew?
2019-08-14T13:42:03Z nullnullnull: yeah
2019-08-14T13:42:38Z amz3: nullnullnull: that the name of chez scheme distribution I am working on. Chez is another scheme.
2019-08-14T13:42:53Z amz3: nullnullnull: it means "in a row" or "batteries included"
2019-08-14T13:44:19Z nullnullnull: oh
2019-08-14T13:46:52Z nullnullnull: btw why people make so many versions? instead of working with just one scheme (better and less confusing I think)
2019-08-14T13:47:23Z ecraven: different goals, some are meant to be small, for embedding, some are meant to be as large as possible, some as simple as possible
2019-08-14T13:47:23Z amz3: nullnullnull: because it is fun.
2019-08-14T13:47:35Z amz3: +1 ecraven
2019-08-14T13:49:49Z nullnullnull: ah so  there's no perfect version
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2019-08-14T13:59:15Z dTal: There's a tension between "small language definition" and "getting things done", which historically has resulted in every Scheme implementation inventing a different way to get things done that isn't in the standard
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2019-08-14T14:00:01Z dTal: the latest in-progress standard attempts to address this by defining both a small core language, and separately a large practical set of libraries
2019-08-14T14:00:37Z amz3: +1 large pratical set of libraries
2019-08-14T14:03:45Z dTal: but in some ways the incompatiblities aren't as a big of a deal as you might think - it's a little like how C is nominally portable, but C on a microcontroller is not the same as C on a desktop computer
2019-08-14T14:04:01Z dTal: what's important is not that C programs are portable, but that C programmers are
2019-08-14T14:04:25Z amz3: portable scheme programmer
2019-08-14T14:04:30Z dTal: likewise with Scheme - you have to pick an implementation anyway
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2019-08-14T15:42:13Z Zipheir: rain2: That entire thread is issue/thread is bonkers.  Once you commit to hacking up a whole new syntax, you open the floodgates.
2019-08-14T15:42:44Z Zipheir: oops, s/thread is //
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2019-08-14T16:07:27Z lockywolf: Why can't Chibi use slib natively?
2019-08-14T16:07:59Z lockywolf: By natively I mean, why does snow-fort need to host package conversions? Why can't Chibi just load slib's code directly?
2019-08-14T16:10:16Z lockywolf: I am interested in the "debug" library in slib, as well as the (very old) r4rs debugger called psd.
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2019-08-14T18:13:19Z jcowan will cheerfully take most of the credit for making sure R7RS-large data structures mostly use parallel procedure names
2019-08-14T18:15:34Z jcowan: Even apart from their extensions, different Schemes optimize for different things:  speed, space, compilation speed, safety, debuggability, embeddability....
2019-08-14T18:16:22Z jcowan: lockywolf: SLIB's modules depend on old-style define-macro, which Chibi does not (want to) support.
2019-08-14T18:16:31Z jcowan: And they have nothing to do with Chibi's libraries.
2019-08-14T18:19:21Z jcowan: rain2: Racket is not *changing* the syntax of #lang racket, and it's misleading to say it is.  It's *adding* new syntax under a different name.  That's what Racket is designed to do.  After all, it already supports lots of languages that aren't very Schemelike at all.
2019-08-14T18:19:32Z jcowan: There is even support for Algol 60, though not as a #lang.
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2019-08-14T18:30:42Z badkins: jcowan: what is a "parallel procedure name" ?
2019-08-14T18:31:00Z jcowan: Things like length, vector-length, string-length, ....
2019-08-14T18:31:13Z badkins: ah, so more consistent naming?
2019-08-14T18:31:51Z jcowan: yes, I should have s/names/name conventions
2019-08-14T18:32:12Z badkins: rain2: re: communication from mflatt:  https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/racket-users/9Eh9H1Jt28Q
2019-08-14T18:33:19Z badkins: ...although that's technically from the project leadership as a whole.
2019-08-14T18:33:27Z badkins: (referring to the 10:39 post)
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2019-08-14T19:26:28Z badkins: jcowan: while I technically agree with your statement, "Racket is not *changing* the syntax of #lang racket", as things stand right now, it does seem like a technicality. For example, if #lang racket was thrown into the bin with #lang scheme and #lang mzscheme, then *in essence*, they will have basically changed the syntax of "Racket"
2019-08-14T19:27:19Z jcowan: If.
2019-08-14T19:27:42Z badkins: My response to the link I posted was to encourage them to simply make their intentions clear regarding what will happen to #lang racket *if* (and it's a big if) the new syntax becomes the default & blessed syntax.
2019-08-14T19:28:06Z badkins: jcowan: Yes, the trouble with the "If" is that I don't want to wait 4 years for it to be answered :)
2019-08-14T19:28:10Z jcowan: I think that change, if it happens, is *many* years down the road.
2019-08-14T19:28:53Z badkins: I agree, and it's far from assured of success - having said that, *if* their intention is to deprecate #lang racket N years from now, that's pretty much a deal breaker for me.
2019-08-14T19:29:17Z badkins: I prefer to not invest 4 years into a codebase that has the *possibility* of being deprecated.
2019-08-14T19:29:36Z badkins: I suppose I could fork it, but I'm an application developer, not a compiler guy.
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2019-08-14T19:30:28Z badkins: How close is r7rs-large to being ready to get me out of this situation? :)
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2019-08-14T19:38:06Z jcowan: Depends on what you want.  There are plenty of R7RS-small implementations now, and there are a fair number of libraries that have been blessed as R7RS-large, all of them with portable implementations.
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2019-08-14T19:38:29Z badkins: Well, to be frank, I simply want Racket, and for it to not change :)
2019-08-14T19:38:39Z dTal: badkins: I think you can safely assume that #racket won't be deprecated
2019-08-14T19:39:00Z dTal: * #lang racket
2019-08-14T19:39:01Z badkins: dTal: just out of curiosity, where is the evidence for that opinion?
2019-08-14T19:39:03Z jcowan: I think four years is the estimated time to design and implement #lang quacket (just to give it a name), *not* the time at which quacket dominates racket.  I think that is much further away.
2019-08-14T19:39:46Z badkins: jcowan: if you're referring to a free market, then maybe yes; however, it's possible the core team would like to get ahead of things by declaring it the "winner" i.e. default or main language.
2019-08-14T19:39:51Z dTal: badkins: because Racket is rebasing on Chez, you can safely assume it will always have a canonical s-expression base
2019-08-14T19:40:05Z dTal: also the racket devs aren't insane, like so many people seem to suddenly think they might be
2019-08-14T19:40:15Z jcowan: and I think it is unreasonable to demand such assurances over something perhaps a decade away.  "I may die, the horse may die, the king may die; and who knows? Maybe the horse will learn to sing after all."
2019-08-14T19:40:45Z badkins: dTal: I respectfully disagree. I've been following the mailing list & slack discussions closely and have been participating. It is far from clear that #lang racket won't end up similar to #lang mzscheme
2019-08-14T19:41:10Z jcowan: It may well do so, absolutely.
2019-08-14T19:41:35Z badkins: jcowan: I'm not demanding assurances, simplay a roadmap w/ intentions. This is not an unreasonable requests for a commercial user of a programming language.
2019-08-14T19:41:37Z jcowan: Then again, all of Racket Central may be in the same plane some day, and it crashes, and where are you then?  (originally applied to Haskell programmers)
2019-08-14T19:42:30Z jcowan: Who could have foreseen that so many open-source projects would someday fall into the hands of the most anti-FLOSS large company on the planet, Oracle?
2019-08-14T19:42:37Z dTal: I'm not sure what the fear is here, exactly
2019-08-14T19:42:40Z badkins: Well, God forbid that happens, it's open source software w/ tremendous value, so I think people would get involved. That's different than an alive & well group steering it in a different direction.
2019-08-14T19:43:04Z dTal: you write a bunch of software in #lang racket, and then #lang quacket or whatever comes out, and... everything's fine?
2019-08-14T19:43:10Z jcowan: I think the purpose of joining the Conservancy is just such a long-term plan.
2019-08-14T19:43:16Z badkins: dTal: to understand the concern - would you choose #lang mzscheme for a new, large project? If not, why not?
2019-08-14T19:43:52Z dTal: No, but I wouldn't choose Python2 either
2019-08-14T19:44:04Z badkins: Can you see some difficulty w/ hiring people to work on a deprecated language? etc. I'm not sure you're as dependent on it as I am, and that helps to clarify matters.
2019-08-14T19:44:25Z jcowan: The difference is that Python 3 was intended to replace Python 2 from day one
2019-08-14T19:44:42Z jcowan: That day has been long postponed, but it's now coming up on us fast.
2019-08-14T19:44:44Z dTal: actually yes, the Python situation is much, much worse
2019-08-14T19:45:00Z badkins: Yes, and the subtexts have been similar from the originator i.e. a desire to have the infix syntax become predominant to reduce barriers to new people who hate parens.
2019-08-14T19:45:17Z dTal: but the point is that not picking Python *at all* because Python 3 was hypothetically coming out would be silly
2019-08-14T19:45:32Z badkins: I spoke with a Python book author about this on Monday, and he and I don't think Python 3 is worse - not even close.
2019-08-14T19:45:50Z badkins: Now if they chose s-expressions for Python 3, then maybe ...
2019-08-14T19:46:10Z dTal: no, Python 3 is not worse. The compatibillity / transition story with 2 -> 3 is much worse than anything Racket will ever face
2019-08-14T19:46:49Z dTal: Also, syntax != language. I feel like this gets overlooked a lot too
2019-08-14T19:47:46Z badkins: Agreed on both of the above; however, after programming for a few decades, I'm in a position where I can choose (and did choose) a language where aesthetics is a strong factor.
2019-08-14T19:48:08Z badkins: I'm not concerned that they'll screw up the semantics, I just love writing and looking at Scheme code.
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2019-08-14T19:49:11Z jcowan: I'm not sure what #lang mzscheme exposes, but I think it's reasonable to suppose that Quacket and Racket will expose the same procedures and (modulo whatever happens in Quacket to syntax extension) macros.
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2019-08-14T19:49:42Z dTal: jcowan: I'm really liking "Quacket", you should nominate that on the mailing list :P
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2019-08-14T19:49:45Z badkins: +1 for Quacket by the way - I should suggest that :)
2019-08-14T19:49:48Z badkins: lol
2019-08-14T19:50:11Z jcowan: Please do.  I'm not on the racket ml, and some people there have been hostile to me in the past.
2019-08-14T19:50:30Z badkins: I hope someone nominates it! I've already stirred the pot too much.
2019-08-14T19:50:54Z jcowan: (However, it might be construed as an insulting name, I suppose, given the bad connotations of "quack" = "unqualified doctor")
2019-08-14T19:51:10Z badkins: and Q comes before R ;)
2019-08-14T19:52:01Z dTal: I like the connotation of syntax, and also the resonance with "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."
2019-08-14T19:52:30Z dTal: and how the front of the word differs, but the back remains the same :)
2019-08-14T19:53:25Z dTal: maybe I should join the mailing list
2019-08-14T19:53:28Z badkins: re: mzscheme vs. racket vs. quacket, at first, racket & quacket would be highly interoperable I expect, but as an example, the mutable vs. immutable cons cells does cause some problems for calling between mzscheme and racket
2019-08-14T19:54:20Z dTal: I'm hardly a greybeard schemer, but it sounds like that actually qualifies me to talk intelligently about Quacket, heh
2019-08-14T19:54:37Z badkins: Without an intention to support #lang racket "well", it could get dustier over time with more and more incompatibilities and therefore less able to use the batteries included libs.
2019-08-14T19:55:10Z dTal: see I took it for granted that #lang quacket will be implemented *in* #lang racket
2019-08-14T19:55:25Z dTal: and so it will *have* to continue to be supported "well"
2019-08-14T19:55:48Z badkins: initially I expect it will be implemented in #lang racket, and initially I think it will be supported well
2019-08-14T19:55:48Z amz3 quacks
2019-08-14T19:56:43Z dTal: and again, with a Chez backend there's no option but to implement it in some sort of lispy language
2019-08-14T19:57:00Z amz3: nanopass quacket
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2019-08-14T19:57:16Z amz3: I read there is an nanopass ocaml
2019-08-14T19:57:35Z badkins: well, quacket will certainly be very lispy
2019-08-14T19:57:36Z dTal: it is easier for an ocaml to nanopass through the eye of a needle...
2019-08-14T19:57:48Z amz3: I tried to think how to achieve nanopass philosophy in python, it was a real pain
2019-08-14T19:58:41Z amz3: badkins: will quacket have oop?
2019-08-14T19:58:53Z amz3: does racket have oop already?
2019-08-14T19:59:03Z badkins: well, #lang racket has classes, so yes in that respect
2019-08-14T19:59:08Z amz3: because that would be also a barrier of entry... imo.
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2019-08-14T19:59:18Z amz3: badkins: we are saved.
2019-08-14T19:59:19Z badkins: but I don't think adding OOP capabilities is a priority
2019-08-14T19:59:43Z amz3: "what it is an object?! but it doesn't have methods?!!"
2019-08-14T19:59:52Z amz3: badkins: ok that was my question
2019-08-14T20:00:20Z badkins: the whole premise of "get rid of parens, and they will come" is flawed in my opinion, but I don't fault researchers for wanting to research
2019-08-14T20:00:38Z amz3: that is not research, that is marketing.
2019-08-14T20:01:06Z dTal: personally I think the parens are a red herring, it's been pointed out that there's no more parens in lisp than any other language, to a first approximation
2019-08-14T20:01:12Z badkins: amz3: sort of, but I think the research is how to do language oriented programming (i.e. macros +) in a language with syntax that's actually nice
2019-08-14T20:01:18Z dTal: except Python, which uses indents
2019-08-14T20:01:45Z Riastradh: ooooooooooooooooooooooooop
2019-08-14T20:01:50Z badkins: the reason students (& others) aren't using Racket is because they haven't found its feature set compelling for what they do - if LOP was compelling, parens wouldn't stop them
2019-08-14T20:01:53Z dTal: the real problem is related to its greatest strength, which is the near-total lack of *anything else*
2019-08-14T20:01:54Z Riastradh: Hmm, is oop related to that goop snake oil that's been going around lately?
2019-08-14T20:02:36Z dTal: badkins: that's a problem that solves itself. Make a language nice to use, and the libraries will come
2019-08-14T20:02:39Z amz3: +1 dTal
2019-08-14T20:02:51Z dTal: exhibit a: Python
2019-08-14T20:02:59Z badkins: & Ruby
2019-08-14T20:04:36Z dTal: If Racket gets a clean Python-like syntax, with nifty syntax for things like list slicing, I can see it giving Python a run for its money since its performance will completely spank Python
2019-08-14T20:05:16Z badkins: time will tell, but why won't those supposed new customers just use Python right now ?
2019-08-14T20:05:29Z amz3: yeah, but Python has hell a head start in terms of popularity, fwiw, zdnet predirected that Python will surpass C and Java in terms of new dev in 4 years..
2019-08-14T20:05:32Z badkins: Racket may have a performance advantage, but it's not huge.
2019-08-14T20:05:44Z dTal: it is enormous
2019-08-14T20:05:50Z amz3: 10 times?
2019-08-14T20:05:55Z dTal: you underestimate how abysmal Python is
2019-08-14T20:05:59Z badkins: maybe on *some* isolated benchmarks
2019-08-14T20:06:26Z badkins: well I was a Rubyist for 13 years before switching to Racket, but even so, performance wasn't that high on my list
2019-08-14T20:06:27Z dTal: also Racket has a typed variant
2019-08-14T20:06:32Z badkins: and Ruby is slower than Python!
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2019-08-14T20:07:46Z amz3: on some benchmark chez scheme is 35 times faster than python
2019-08-14T20:07:54Z badkins: oh no, dTal just had to promote the name in #racket :)
2019-08-14T20:08:17Z dTal: well, someone had to pitch it somewhere :)
2019-08-14T20:08:34Z aeth: Everyone would have switched to Python 5 years ago... if Moore's law single-threaded performance had continued. You can't even properly multithread Python because of the GIL (global interpreter lock iirc).
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2019-08-14T20:09:03Z aeth: You can't even make a properly multithreaded new Python implementation because you'll just expose things that libraries didn't think of
2019-08-14T20:09:05Z amz3: probably
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2019-08-14T20:09:26Z amz3: aeth: with that I agree, but you know you can fix it
2019-08-14T20:09:30Z badkins: aeth: you know, that GIL used to bother me a lot, but Racket has a similar (but different) issue, but I've found that using 1 Racket process per core, and then use green threads in each process for concurrency works *surprisingly* well.
2019-08-14T20:09:44Z amz3: ymmv
2019-08-14T20:09:44Z aeth: amz3: knowing how slow the transition to Python 3 was, I think any fix would take 5-10 years to actually work with every library
2019-08-14T20:09:55Z amz3: aeth: True
2019-08-14T20:10:00Z dTal: nah, I think relative performance is as important as absolute performance - yeah if computers were 10 times as fast today, you could write today's programs in Python - but you couldn't write the programs that need 10 times as much power :)
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2019-08-14T20:10:35Z aeth: badkins: maybe, but I'm not going to use 12-24 processes on my home computer for home computer (not server) applications
2019-08-14T20:11:04Z aeth: for one, the home computer doesn't have the RAM to match a server even with tons of cores
2019-08-14T20:11:09Z badkins: true - depends a lot on the app domain - I mainly do server side stuff, so 2 to 8 processes on an Amazon VPS is great
2019-08-14T20:11:10Z dTal: don't see why not
2019-08-14T20:11:29Z dTal: you can get 32 cores in a desktop now with Ryzen
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2019-08-14T20:12:37Z aeth: dTal: Python's biggest weakness isn't that it's 30x slower single-threaded, it's that it can't easily get that 4x speedup by using 12 cores instead of 1. If single-threaded performance had still kept up with historical trends, we'd probably have no more than 2-4 cores still so we wouldn't notice that as much
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2019-08-14T20:13:16Z dwdv: Alright, I'm biting: show me a scheme impl that beats python in this bench here with somewhat idiomatic code: https://ptrace.fefe.de/wp/README.txt
2019-08-14T20:13:28Z dwdv: Code and timing here: https://ptrace.fefe.de/wp/
2019-08-14T20:13:30Z aeth: dTal: well, mainstream is still 12 core at most... 16 in September.
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2019-08-14T20:14:46Z amz3: dwdv: this was solved by guile
2019-08-14T20:14:50Z amz3: IIRC
2019-08-14T20:15:02Z badkins: dwdv: you can't always "stay in C", nor is it desirable to try to do so all the time
2019-08-14T20:15:39Z amz3: dwdv: IDK the result timing
2019-08-14T20:16:15Z dwdv: Is there code somewhere floating around?
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2019-08-14T20:17:17Z amz3: dwdv: https://github.com/juditacs/wordcount
2019-08-14T20:17:35Z dTal: well there's https://ptrace.fefe.de/wp/wp.ss
2019-08-14T20:17:38Z amz3: dwdv: guile is not ranked for some reason
2019-08-14T20:19:11Z dTal: where's the feed data for benching?
2019-08-14T20:19:29Z amz3: idk
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2019-08-14T20:20:58Z badkins: readme states "several hundred megabytes of web logs", but C++ did it in 3.14 seconds? That's impressive I/O
2019-08-14T20:21:35Z dwdv: dTal:  They're using the llvm src, see top lines here: https://ptrace.fefe.de/wp/timings2019.txt
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2019-08-14T20:34:09Z badkins: lol - kudos to winny in #racket for mentioning DrQuacket first !!   :)
2019-08-14T20:40:27Z dwdv: amz3: thanks for the link, will adapt the fast guile version and time it later on.
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2019-08-14T20:43:07Z aeth: Dr. Quack (says he can) fix anything!
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2019-08-14T21:32:16Z erkin: V.v.V
2019-08-14T21:32:44Z erkin: oops, disregard that
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2019-08-14T21:45:55Z badkins: dwdv: it might be worth timing Chez Scheme given how fast it is
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2019-08-14T22:00:58Z dwdv: badkins:  I've tried them all, at least the popular ones and some newcomers like cyclone. Fastest was gambit+gerbil, but that was still x times lower than python, which seems to have some pretty tight hashtable/dict code. :)
2019-08-14T22:01:47Z badkins isn't surprised that the hashtable is the bottleneck
2019-08-14T22:08:48Z Zipheir: I notice that the scheme implementation calls string->symbol on _every_ word read, for some reason.  That's gotta add some overhead.
2019-08-14T22:08:57Z aeth: Lisps tend to have pretty generic hashtables, and generic usually means slow (either in compilation or at runtime or both, depending on the details)
2019-08-14T22:08:58Z Zipheir: https://ptrace.fefe.de/wp/wp.ss
2019-08-14T22:09:35Z aeth: I mean, Python's probably pretty generic in general, too, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are more restrictive with what keys can be
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2019-08-14T22:14:29Z Zipheir: Well, converting every string to a symbol in order to use a symbol-indexed hashmap is probably not optimal Scheme.  Should use a SRFI 69 hash table with string=? and string-hash.
2019-08-14T22:15:44Z dwdv: See the chicken scheme variant of this which does exactly that: https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=97fc5064df4eff80fe4c90247e6036f5d39b73cf
2019-08-14T22:16:42Z dwdv: Profiling data includes gc overhead as well.
2019-08-14T22:17:26Z Zipheir: Wow, yeah.
2019-08-14T22:20:22Z Zipheir: Ungodly slow hash table operations compared to python, lua, and perl, it seems.
2019-08-14T22:21:07Z Zipheir: Mein herz, mein herz.
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2019-08-14T22:30:20Z jcowan: Those languages treat hash tables as extremely first-class and they are written in heavily optimized C.
2019-08-14T22:31:46Z LeoNerd: I don't know about Python or Lua, but large amounts of Perl internals are built using its own hash abstraction, so it is indeed heavily optimised to make that run nicely
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2019-08-14T23:09:49Z badkins: jcowan: I've been reading about the R6RS implicit phasing (https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/implicit-phasing.pdf) and MzScheme's module/macro system (https://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/macromod.pdf)  Is the R7RS module / library system similar to either of those?
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2019-08-14T23:10:39Z jcowan: R7RS-small uses a subset of the R6RS system, but requires no phasing, because it only supports syntax-rules.
2019-08-14T23:11:38Z jcowan: AFAIK the only R[67]RS systems that don't support implicit phasing are Larceny (which is a matter of Will Clinger needing time he hasn't got to change things) and maybe Chez, I don't know.
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2019-08-14T23:12:23Z jcowan: If R7RS-large ends up doing syntax-case and/or other low-level macro systems, I hope to require support for implicit phasing.
2019-08-14T23:12:41Z badkins: Yes, to both please :)
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2019-08-14T23:30:37Z travishinkelman: This is over my head but I would assume that Chez supports implicit phasing based on this paper: https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/implicit-phasing.pdf
2019-08-14T23:34:58Z jcowan: Excellent.  So we have consensus:  implicit phasing rules, R6RS-style explicit phasing drools.
2019-08-14T23:35:51Z jcowan: Hmm, no, that paper is by Abdulaziz
2019-08-14T23:36:04Z jcowan: which means Dybvig may or may not agree with its thesis
2019-08-14T23:36:28Z travishinkelman: Fair enough. Very, very superficial interpretation on my part. Thanks.
2019-08-14T23:36:52Z jcowan: Someone could fire up Chez and check
2019-08-14T23:40:42Z jcowan: http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/scheme/scheme21.html tells us that as of 2009 only Larceny (and of course PLT/Racket) do not support implicit phasing, and that probably hasntchanged
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2019-08-14T23:49:33Z travishinkelman: This seems like the relevant section from the Chez User’s guide: “The for wrapper and import-level are described in Chapter 10 of The Scheme Programming Language, 4th Edition. They are ignored by Chez Scheme, which determines automatically the levels at which identifiers must be imported, as permitted by the Revised6 Report. This frees the programmer from the obligation to do so and results in more generality as well as more precision in
2019-08-14T23:49:33Z travishinkelman: the set of libraries actually imported at compile and run time.”
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2019-08-15T00:45:02Z jcowan: Yes, I agree that that is definitive.
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2019-08-15T01:19:40Z lockywolf: Is there any chance that slib will eventually be rewritten using the standard r7rs module system?
2019-08-15T01:25:44Z gwatt: lockywolf: possibly parts of it as someone needs
2019-08-15T01:36:50Z jcowan: A more interesting idea IMO is to write an R7RS init file for SRFI 96, which defines the things over and above R4RS that SLIB wants to have.
2019-08-15T01:37:02Z jcowan: Some guidance is available at <https://srfi-email.schemers.org/srfi-96/msg/8547943/>
2019-08-15T01:37:40Z jcowan: That doesn't attempt to turn SLIB modules into libraries, it just tries to make them work in R7RS implementations.
2019-08-15T01:38:05Z jcowan: The remaining uses of defmacro and other macro systems would need to be weeded out.
2019-08-15T01:38:36Z jcowan: Once as large a subset as possible actually works, then it's time to wrap the modules in R7RS library files.
2019-08-15T01:45:33Z pjb: wasamasa: Nothing wrong with C++ ; as long as you can use InteLib https://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html#intelib
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2019-08-15T01:58:35Z lockywolf: Does anyone really use slib's
2019-08-15T01:58:42Z lockywolf: Debug module?
2019-08-15T01:59:27Z lockywolf: Is it a true debugger or just a wrapper around different implementations' own debuggers?
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2019-08-15T02:15:19Z lockywolf: So the r7rs macro subsystem is called syntax-rules, right?
2019-08-15T02:15:29Z lockywolf: But there was an old one called define-syntax?
2019-08-15T02:21:07Z lockywolf: Or, rather, the new one is let-syntax?
2019-08-15T02:22:15Z jcowan: No.  Aside from define-macro which is completely separate,
2019-08-15T02:23:10Z jcowan: define-syntax, let-syntax, and let*-syntax are the analogues of define, let, and let*, and are shared by all macro systems:  syntax-rules, syntax-case, syntactic closures (include reverse syntactic closures), explicit renaming, and implicit renaming.  All of them can therefore coexist in principle.
2019-08-15T02:26:52Z lockywolf: And define-macro is the version of the macro construction that does not preserve lexical scoping?
2019-08-15T02:27:25Z lockywolf: So if I define something referring to 'symbol-a, it will be evaluated when the expansion is executed?
2019-08-15T02:27:41Z lockywolf: Rather than recalled from the time when the macro was defined?
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2019-08-15T02:45:46Z lockywolf_: When did define-macro become legacy in the scheme world? I am curious about the development history. r4rs?
2019-08-15T02:47:27Z jcowan: No, define-macro was never part of any Scheme standard.  It's basically CL's defmacro.
2019-08-15T02:49:20Z jcowan: Most implementations provided it faute de mieux until R4RS, which included a variety of syntax-rules in an experimental appendix.  Syntax-rules became standard in R5RS, and very few implementations don't support them today.
2019-08-15T02:51:02Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/SyntaxDefinitions.md gives the details on which implementations support what.
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2019-08-15T04:41:02Z Riastradh: Implicit phasing is horrible.  It's cute for toys.
2019-08-15T04:41:42Z Riastradh: If you're not sure whether the code you mean to run is supposed to be a development tool, or deployed to the user, what you're building is probably a toy.
2019-08-15T04:46:22Z Zipheir: So much for consensus.
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2019-08-15T04:56:17Z mdhughes: A good model for what's happening with Racket is Apple's Objective-C and Swift. Obj-C was getting a ton of support and improvements until a C++ jerk got his hobby language accepted as an alternative. Then marketing ran with it as "easier", even though it's a hard C++ variant. Now Obj-C is neglected; there's still work in it, it's a better language in every way, but it's deprecated.
2019-08-15T05:06:18Z mdhughes: The language from the racket dev thread suggests they're doing the same thing, but don't even have the C++ jerk's hobby language running yet; once they do, things will move very rapidly away from #lang racket.
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2019-08-15T05:16:47Z Zipheir: It looks like it's worse than not having the hobby language running--they seem to be bikeshedding its syntax.
2019-08-15T05:19:25Z Zipheir: I fail to see how Scheme's sexp syntax--which, though alien-looking to some, is simple and regular--is going to be harder to learn then some conglomerate of lots of 'nice features'.
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2019-08-15T06:08:56Z rain2: > Racket is not *changing* the syntax of #lang racket, and it's misleading to say it is
2019-08-15T06:08:58Z rain2: when did I say that
2019-08-15T06:15:56Z mdhughes: They're still bikeshedding Swift's syntax, too, every version breaks all previous programs. Sometimes the update script can fix it, sometimes you just throw your code out.
2019-08-15T06:16:45Z mdhughes: I quit even playing with it after 2. something, but there's people who've done 2 or 3 total rewrites.
2019-08-15T06:17:29Z rain2: i think your comparison with swift has a lot of wisdom
2019-08-15T06:18:41Z mdhughes: On another tack, I was looking at https://ptrace.fefe.de/wp/ and trying to make a fast Chicken version.
2019-08-15T06:19:04Z mdhughes: And there's some real awfulness in the file-reading part, I'm thinking.
2019-08-15T06:20:25Z mdhughes: Python's 1.5s on my dataset, csi's 8.4s, csc's 4.5s. Whoo.
2019-08-15T06:21:02Z mdhughes: And I know from non-file-IO programs Chicken should be 20-100x faster.
2019-08-15T06:23:09Z duncanm: jcowan: nice listing in `SyntaxDefinitions.md`
2019-08-15T06:23:29Z duncanm: jcowan: I did notice that with syntax-case, they're not all the same
2019-08-15T06:23:57Z duncanm: for example, the syntax-case in Kawa doesn't distinguish between syntax-time bindings and runtime bindings
2019-08-15T06:24:13Z duncanm: so some macros that would work in Racket wouldn't work in Kawa, because things would clash
2019-08-15T06:26:20Z tolja: mdhughes: where's the thread?
2019-08-15T06:26:36Z mdhughes: which thread?
2019-08-15T06:27:03Z tolja: The racket dev thread you are talking about
2019-08-15T06:28:32Z mdhughes: Oh, the Racket devs? uh, page up/look in log, it was yesterday
2019-08-15T06:29:36Z mdhughes: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/racket-users/9Eh9H1Jt28Q
2019-08-15T06:30:44Z tolja: Thanks
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2019-08-15T11:01:12Z jcowan: duncanm: That's the explicit phasing (Racket and Larceny) vs. implicit phasing (all other implementations) that we've been discussing on and off.  Racket lets you use the same identifiers in different ways at compile time and run time; all other Schemes do not.
2019-08-15T11:01:40Z jcowan: Contra Riastradh, I don't think this freedom actually buys you anything except confusion.
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2019-08-15T11:52:35Z amz3: scheme is the sun! scheme is the way
2019-08-15T11:52:38Z amz3: oops!
2019-08-15T11:52:40Z amz3: wrong chan
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2019-08-15T12:20:00Z mdhughes: No programming language should be a religion.
2019-08-15T12:26:01Z amz3: #t
2019-08-15T12:30:16Z dTal: it took me a solid decade to break through the mysticism and hype and sort out what exactly was going on with Lisp
2019-08-15T12:40:10Z dwdv: Please enlighten us newbies.
2019-08-15T12:43:16Z pjb: it's the objects that are typed, not the variables.
2019-08-15T12:46:38Z lockywolf: The original "uncommon" lisp, say Maclisp didn't have macros, did it?
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2019-08-15T12:54:32Z lockywolf_: I wonder how THE biggest common denominator in the scheme world, slib, became dependent on the non-standard language feature (define-macro).
2019-08-15T12:55:54Z lockywolf_: Anyway, psd seems to be only using the actual 'require' feature of slib, so it shouldn't be too hard to rewrite the init file for r7rs.
2019-08-15T12:57:00Z ggole: maclisp had macros
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2019-08-15T13:15:48Z lockywolf_: In the (defmacro) shape?
2019-08-15T13:18:07Z amz3: dwdv: like lisp is god's programming language, I presume. I don't believe in those kind of arogant statments. My fondness of scheme is pratical.
2019-08-15T13:18:15Z amz3: even if I like to job a little about it.
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2019-08-15T13:29:25Z dTal: dwdv: as I see it "lisp" actually refers to several distinct things: s-expression syntax (and therefore macros), a high level of dynamism (including "everything has a value"), and a deeply conservative culture focused around the incidentals of the first few implementations of languages to implement these concepts
2019-08-15T13:33:11Z dTal: the statements "clojure is a lisp", "clojure is not a lisp", and "javascript is a lisp" each refer to a different one of the above
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2019-08-15T13:47:19Z amz3: dTal: high level dynamism?
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2019-08-15T13:49:59Z dTal: *a* high level *of* dynamism
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2019-08-15T13:50:36Z dTal: for example it is possible to construct a function and then call it, all at runtime
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2019-08-15T13:53:07Z lockywolf_: In this sense, Matlab is a lisp
2019-08-15T13:53:32Z lockywolf_: although quite a bad lisp
2019-08-15T13:54:23Z lockywolf_: How do I test the availability of slib? I'm trying to write some code which would load a few library functions.
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2019-08-15T13:55:32Z lockywolf_: A slib-based loader is already provided, I want to add an r7rs version loading the same files, but falling back to slib's (require) if r7rs is not available.
2019-08-15T13:55:39Z lockywolf_: Actually, no.
2019-08-15T13:56:47Z lockywolf_: There will be _three_ loaders. One for r7rs, one for slib, and one custom. I want to use r7rs as a first preference, slib if the system is not the latest one, and fall back to a custom loader if those two options fail.
2019-08-15T13:58:06Z lockywolf_: I am trying to craft a cond-expand, and (cond-expand (r7rs #t) (else #f)) seems fine.
2019-08-15T13:58:24Z lockywolf_: But I can't understand how to check the presence of slib.
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2019-08-15T14:16:27Z Riastradh: jcowan: I'm not saying that the additional flexibility is particularly important.  I'm saying that automagically loading something at every phase is bad.
2019-08-15T14:17:49Z jcowan: IIUC, Chez doesn't actually do that: it visits everything and then loads lazily at each phase only if needed.
2019-08-15T14:18:22Z Riastradh: `at every phase where you accidentally referred to it'
2019-08-15T14:19:22Z Riastradh: It is a very easy mistake to accidentally use a name at one phase when you meant to use it at another; this mistake is easily detectable, except with implicit phasing where the consequences just get pushed down the road to confusion.
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2019-08-15T14:46:03Z rain2: is there an equivalent of lexical scope for phases?
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2019-08-15T14:56:49Z jcowan: Library scope, but nothing less than that.
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2019-08-15T15:01:55Z lockywolf__: Is it possible to reimplement defmacro in terms of define-syntax if the macros I am looking to fool are not too "anaphoric"?
2019-08-15T15:06:06Z gwatt: lockywolf__: not with syntax-rules
2019-08-15T15:06:24Z lockywolf__: gwatt, okay...
2019-08-15T15:06:40Z lockywolf__: What happened to petercrlane's github?
2019-08-15T15:06:46Z gwatt: well, ok. what do you mean by "too anaphoric"
2019-08-15T15:07:28Z jcowan: You can implement it painfully by stripping all syntax information.
2019-08-15T15:07:43Z lockywolf__: gwatt, forget about it, it's probably a bad idea anyway
2019-08-15T15:07:54Z jcowan: But that's about like deciding you want dynamic scope everywhere, like older Lisps.  It's holding out your foot to be shot.
2019-08-15T15:09:08Z jcowan: Macro hygiene is exactly analogous to lexical scope; it means that identifiers free in the body of a macro are interpreted in the context of definition rather than the context of use.
2019-08-15T15:09:22Z jcowan: (low-level, non-syntax-rules macro, that is)
2019-08-15T15:10:38Z lockywolf__: ah, I'm always confused by the vocabulary...
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2019-08-15T15:10:55Z lockywolf__: by interpreted you don't mean evaluated?
2019-08-15T15:11:50Z gwatt: sidenote, I feel like calling "hygiene" "lexical macro expansion" would help when talking to CL people. In many conversations I've seen/had CL folks seem to conflate syntax-rules and hygiene.
2019-08-15T15:12:51Z lockywolf__: emacs lisp manual claims that macros are expanded at compile-time, and therefore all variables are evaluated at compile time
2019-08-15T15:13:15Z lockywolf__: if they are free, the code wouldn't compile
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2019-08-15T15:14:27Z lockywolf__: but anyway, I didn't intend to reimplement emacs lisp in scheme
2019-08-15T15:14:39Z lockywolf__: I just wanted to make some old code run
2019-08-15T15:15:01Z gwatt: There was a project to re-implement emacs in guile, including emacs list
2019-08-15T15:15:02Z gwatt: lisp*
2019-08-15T15:16:34Z lockywolf__: yeah, guileemacs. some of it still works
2019-08-15T15:17:35Z jcowan: "Free" in the sense "not bound in the body of the macro"
2019-08-15T15:18:16Z lockywolf__: still, I'm confused. There was a guy called Peter Lane, who packaged hell of a lot of packages for snow-fort.org
2019-08-15T15:18:29Z lockywolf__: A lot of slib for example
2019-08-15T15:18:52Z lockywolf__: http://snow-fort.org/s/peterlane.info/peter/pfds/alist/1.0.0/index.html
2019-08-15T15:19:26Z lockywolf__: And he had the github page: https://github.com/petercrlane/r7rs-libs
2019-08-15T15:20:00Z lockywolf__: But now the page seems to be gone, and the website peterlane.info seems to completely unrelated.
2019-08-15T15:20:26Z lockywolf__: While it is common for people to stop updating websites, having github deleted is far from being common.
2019-08-15T15:20:32Z jcowan: Most macros are defined in the null lexical environment, so it doesn't come up that much, but when it does, your foot is shot and pissed on.
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2019-08-15T17:17:45Z wasamasa: mdhughes: from my limited testing you need to drop down to posix APIs for fast IO
2019-08-15T17:17:53Z wasamasa: mdhughes: this is in no way idiomatic of course
2019-08-15T17:18:14Z wasamasa: mdhughes: which means that it loses fefe's benchmark
2019-08-15T17:19:26Z mdhughes: I suppose, but if it works then I can use it in production and speed things up.
2019-08-15T17:19:55Z mdhughes: I've already learned a couple useful tricks trying to get it faster.
2019-08-15T17:20:53Z wasamasa: you could put it into some egg
2019-08-15T17:21:01Z wasamasa: there are a few of that kind, like sendfile
2019-08-15T17:21:18Z Zipheir: At least in the wp test I/O wasn't a big expense.
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2019-08-15T17:23:35Z mdhughes: The .ss version has four problems: I/O, string splitting, hashing with a symbol instead of strings, and sorting a list instead of vector.
2019-08-15T17:24:02Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Did you see the better version?  https://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=97fc5064df4eff80fe4c90247e6036f5d39b73cf
2019-08-15T17:24:26Z mdhughes: Yeah, but that only fixes the hash.
2019-08-15T17:24:57Z Zipheir: That's the only really slow thing, though.
2019-08-15T17:26:38Z mdhughes: It's still 4x slower than Python, which is ridiculous. My profile shows read-line and string-split as the big offenders now.
2019-08-15T17:26:44Z Zipheir: Obviously the table should be mapped to a vector (not a list) for sorting, but the final tabulation is still barely an issue to performance.
2019-08-15T17:27:25Z Zipheir: Yeah, per jcowan I'm not surprised that perl and lua have ridiculously fast hash tables.  But I'd expect Python to ... suck more.
2019-08-15T17:27:27Z mdhughes: It was a cheap half-second off my time.
2019-08-15T17:28:06Z Zipheir: What was?
2019-08-15T17:28:11Z mdhughes: Python does everything in dicts, it's the fundamental type of almost every object. So it's C/ASM optimized to death.
2019-08-15T17:28:21Z Zipheir: Ah, that's it, then.
2019-08-15T17:28:25Z mdhughes: Sorting a vector saved me half a second.
2019-08-15T17:28:38Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-08-15T17:30:53Z mdhughes: Also, picking a better initial hash size gets you some performance win; at some point it must cost more in memory pressure, but a good guess will go faster.
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2019-08-15T17:36:24Z gwatt: If you read the entire file in at once does that help?
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2019-08-15T17:40:26Z mdhughes: Tried that, no significant difference. string-split may have taken longer.
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2019-08-15T18:12:06Z dwdv: mdhughes: what are your measurements saying about gc overhead? Could it introduce significant slowdown?
2019-08-15T18:18:47Z mdhughes: I wasn't looking at that yet, but there's not that much junk in the heap stats. What's the best way to get GC stats?
2019-08-15T18:23:23Z dwdv: Chicken has https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Module%20(chicken%20gc)#set-gc-report
2019-08-15T18:25:59Z mdhughes: Well, that's noisy as hell. So a lot of GC.
2019-08-15T18:29:24Z mdhughes: I'm gonna have another beer and SEGV. Gotta look at the I/O tonight.
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2019-08-15T18:47:24Z dwdv: mdhughes: Later! Regarding I/O perf: https://gist.github.com/vyzo/b9564169237db0d7224f81329b221a89 was the fastest variant (buffered IO via raw devices) in gerbil land, albeit a tad longer than the idiomatic one.
2019-08-15T19:05:59Z wasamasa: here's what I meant with non-idiomatic IO in CHICKEN: https://github.com/wasamasa/tools/blob/master/adf2mp3.scm
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2019-08-15T19:10:47Z wasamasa: it's still cool that you can improve performance with strategic use of inline C
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2019-08-15T19:20:50Z jcowan: By the same token, it's uncool that you have to.
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2019-08-15T19:36:19Z amz3: dwdv: is it faster that python?
2019-08-15T19:36:42Z amz3: dwdv: what version of python are you comparing to 3.6 or later?
2019-08-15T19:37:58Z jcowan: CPython always uses the dumbest and simplest possible implementation unless they absolutely cannot.
2019-08-15T19:38:15Z jcowan: Their optimization strategy is also "Write in C".
2019-08-15T19:38:36Z amz3: they optimized their dict implementation, but I did not see the code
2019-08-15T19:38:42Z amz3: it preserve insertion order too
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2019-08-15T19:49:34Z wasamasa: jcowan: yeah, I know
2019-08-15T19:49:49Z wasamasa: jcowan: at least I don't have to use python's ugly module API
2019-08-15T19:55:18Z amz3: python? module api?
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2019-08-15T19:58:13Z dwdv: amz3: python 2.7.16 with wp.py is twice as fast as python 3.7.4 with Counter(). And the above gerbil variant is 3.4x slower and uses roughly 2x RES mem. Don't even ask about the super simple nim and dlang versions. :)
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2019-08-15T19:58:41Z dTal: I bet the Python3 version is slower because the strings are unicode
2019-08-15T20:00:05Z amz3: dwdv: so python is faster
2019-08-15T20:00:22Z amz3 looking how Counter is implemented
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2019-08-15T20:01:31Z amz3: basically a dict.
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2019-08-15T20:02:11Z wasamasa: I'm referring to the two distinct styles of FFIs, one is writing a loadable shared library (aka module) using gobs of C, the other is dynamically calling suitable functions using the platform's calling convention
2019-08-15T20:02:22Z wasamasa: python goes for the former
2019-08-15T20:02:53Z wasamasa: CHICKEN as well, but manages keeping it 98% scheme
2019-08-15T20:03:06Z wasamasa: racket and so on do the latter
2019-08-15T20:06:51Z jcowan: The way I see it is that glue code is always awful.  You merely have a choice of whether to write the awful glue code in the embedding language or the embedded language.  If you are lucky, you have something to write the glue for you, but you most often still need to write some sort of specification that the glue-creator can understand.
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2019-08-15T20:07:45Z gwatt: jcowan: sometimes you have to write the glue code in both!
2019-08-15T20:07:54Z jcowan: True
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2019-08-16T00:20:08Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20190815/uwc.scm, consumes data at about 9 MB/sec on a 2.3 GHz CPU, or about 245 cpb.  (Display is horrifically slow because its strings and text output ports are, well, bad.)
2019-08-16T00:20:16Z Riastradh: on MIT Scheme, excuse me.
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2019-08-16T06:09:47Z ecraven: does anyone know when the next chibi release will arrive, approximately? I'd love chibi-version support in a released version
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2019-08-16T06:28:24Z Riastradh: MIT Scheme should be a little faster now.
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2019-08-16T06:33:57Z ecraven: nice!
2019-08-16T06:38:29Z dwdv: Sweet! Will check the linked handcrafted solution later today and also port it to gerbil to see how that improves the runtime.
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2019-08-16T16:54:23Z ManDay: I'm trying to grasp the reasoning that went into the syntax-rules ellipsis notation. It seems to be such a pain in the back that the preceding variable and the ellipsis must always be refered to as one. Is anyone else agreeing that it would help with the redundancy of a "special one argument pattern" in case of recursive macros? Does anyone know what *good* comes from it (or whether it is indeed logically
2019-08-16T16:54:25Z ManDay: necessary)?
2019-08-16T16:56:00Z ManDay: E.g. I'd expect to be able to write:   (define-syntax test (syntax-rules () (_ (a ...) b) (begin (pk (quote (a b))) (test (...) b)))
2019-08-16T16:56:10Z wasamasa: it's not much different from the `&rest args` convention in elisp
2019-08-16T16:56:42Z wasamasa: you mark something as capturing many arguments and give it a name
2019-08-16T16:57:02Z wasamasa: then you refer to it again by its name
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2019-08-16T16:57:37Z wasamasa: so your example doesn't make much sense to me
2019-08-16T16:57:45Z wasamasa: because the name is missing
2019-08-16T16:57:47Z ManDay: yeah, but why not
2019-08-16T16:57:55Z ManDay: (^ ignore)
2019-08-16T16:58:13Z wasamasa: with your example it's impossible to tell what the ellipsis is referring to
2019-08-16T16:58:16Z ManDay: wasamasa: Which name/what do you mean?
2019-08-16T16:58:32Z wasamasa: a
2019-08-16T16:58:46Z ManDay: wasamasa: I'd think not. The ellipsis refers to everything after a (before the parenthesis closes)
2019-08-16T16:58:54Z wasamasa: nope
2019-08-16T16:58:57Z wasamasa: read the standard
2019-08-16T16:59:17Z wasamasa: it means something followed by zero or more things
2019-08-16T16:59:27Z wasamasa: which is labeled as a in your example
2019-08-16T16:59:28Z ManDay: wasamasa: If you're saying that it's not correct, then yes of course - that's why I said I wanted to be able to write that
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2019-08-16T17:00:04Z ManDay: I think the way I wrote it, though, it is unambiguous and could be well made sense of generically.
2019-08-16T17:00:16Z wasamasa: it isn't, it breaks as soon as there's more than one ellipsis
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2019-08-16T17:00:38Z ManDay: Can you given an example where you'd say I'd fail to make unique sense of a given form?
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2019-08-16T17:07:31Z ManDay: wasamasa: I'm sorry
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2019-08-16T17:07:44Z ManDay: Obviously
2019-08-16T17:08:09Z ManDay: I had something more complicated in mind when you said that it would be a problem with many ellipsis
2019-08-16T17:08:28Z wasamasa: I'm trying to come up with an actually working example of more than one ellipsis
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2019-08-16T17:09:59Z ManDay: Well, any bogus example (syntax-rules () (_ (a ...) (b ...)) ---) would do I suppose?
2019-08-16T17:10:20Z wasamasa: that's what I'm trying to get working, no dice so far
2019-08-16T17:10:41Z wasamasa: I guess this discussion is ultimately a variant of the one on anaphoric macros
2019-08-16T17:10:57Z wasamasa: with the outcome being that CL/elisp people like them and schemers dislike them
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2019-08-16T17:12:46Z ManDay: My question was not motivated by preference of style but rather by the ultimate need for redundancies (which I assume everyone dislikes) with the ellipsis as it is.
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2019-08-16T17:13:14Z wasamasa: that's a funny thing to assume
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2019-08-16T17:13:28Z wasamasa: consider that the whole hygienic macro thing requires you to pass any identifiers into the macro
2019-08-16T17:13:56Z wasamasa: look at define-record-type in R7RS
2019-08-16T17:14:05Z wasamasa: using it feels like the most redundant thing ever
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2019-08-16T17:17:08Z ManDay: heh
2019-08-16T17:17:15Z ManDay: And do you like it? ;-P
2019-08-16T17:17:28Z wasamasa: it's so-so
2019-08-16T17:17:43Z wasamasa: the alternative would be more magic, something I strongly dislike
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2019-08-16T17:17:57Z ManDay: i see
2019-08-16T17:18:20Z Zipheir: ManDay: If you've got more than one identifier followed by ellipsis, how do you differentiate them in the template?  (In your example)
2019-08-16T17:18:27Z ManDay: I'm not familar with it to understand which magic you're thinking of, but I get what you mean
2019-08-16T17:18:44Z ManDay: Zipheir: Yeah, wasamasa pointed that out. I couldn't.
2019-08-16T17:18:44Z wasamasa: the magic that would generate the identifiers
2019-08-16T17:19:22Z wasamasa: like the cl-defstruct macro in elisp which magically creates a make-foo function for you
2019-08-16T17:19:43Z ManDay: Assuming the intention of my initial example is clear (recursively pk at all a's), what do you suppose would be the best style of realizing it?
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2019-08-16T17:20:10Z Zipheir: What do you mean?
2019-08-16T17:20:24Z Zipheir: What would a sufficiently smart™ expander do?
2019-08-16T17:20:34Z ManDay: wasamasa: Yeah I got the idea. I just meant I'm not familar with define-record-type in R7RS but it's clear that the macro systems comes with limitations.
2019-08-16T17:20:34Z wasamasa: you could get rid of the ellipses by either restricting it to one such pattern or using other syntax to indicate this
2019-08-16T17:20:55Z wasamasa: like ,@ in backquote or the funny sigils in elisp declarations
2019-08-16T17:21:03Z ManDay: Zipheir: Say again?
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2019-08-16T17:21:27Z Zipheir: ManDay: I'm wondering what you mean by `the best style of realizing it'.
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2019-08-16T17:23:27Z ManDay_clone: Mehp
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2019-08-16T17:23:45Z ManDay_clone: Zipheir: By "best style" I meant how you'd realize it assuming it had to be done as a recursive macro.
2019-08-16T17:24:08Z ManDay_clone: (In other words, how'd you implement any recursive macro which recurses on an arbitary amoung of arguments)
2019-08-16T17:24:09Z ManDay: How would you realize it?
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2019-08-16T17:24:37Z ManDay_clone: Me? I realized it with redundancy, like so:
2019-08-16T17:25:14Z Zipheir: ((_ (a0 a ...) b)) is the usual style, I suppose.
2019-08-16T17:25:43Z Zipheir: Your template then has (begin (pk (quote (a0 b))) (test (a ...) b))
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2019-08-16T17:26:42Z ManDay_clone: (syntax-rules () ((_ (a) b) (pk (quote (a b)))))   ((_ (a rest ...) b) (begin (pk (quote (a b))) (_ (rest ...) b)))
2019-08-16T17:27:01Z ManDay_clone: and the redundancy is essentialy in *everything* the macro does.
2019-08-16T17:27:17Z ManDay_clone: it's replicated for the "1 variable" case and the "ellipsis" case. I find that horrible to just look at.
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2019-08-16T17:27:46Z ManDay_clone: yeah, like you called it a the usual style, i think
2019-08-16T17:27:54Z Zipheir: Base case and inductive step... Hmm, that's known as `recursion'.
2019-08-16T17:27:58Z ManDay_clone: `info guile` has that as an example of `my-or`
2019-08-16T17:28:17Z ManDay_clone: Zipheir: Uhm, no.
2019-08-16T17:29:07Z ManDay_clone: If you compare that to a recursive implementation without macros you'd see how this here is redundant. but I suppose you realize that?
2019-08-16T17:30:06Z ManDay_clone: the explicit check (null? ...) in the non-macro case is already implicit in the macro's pattern matching, so you're just getting an additional redundancy of the (pk ...) which you wouldn't need in the non-macro case.
2019-08-16T17:30:17Z Zipheir: Also, that last transformer isn't valid--you've got (_ (rest ...) b) inside a template.
2019-08-16T17:30:42Z ManDay_clone: "adjust parentheses as needed", please
2019-08-16T17:31:10Z Riastradh: ManDay_clone: Can you show an example of an input and the resulting output?
2019-08-16T17:31:15Z Zipheir: It's not about parens.  _ is only meaningful in a pattern.
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2019-08-16T17:31:49Z ManDay_clone: Zipheir: oh yes, i know
2019-08-16T17:32:02Z ManDay_clone: since I only wrote the syntax-rules part, I took the liberty...
2019-08-16T17:32:28Z ManDay_clone: that "_" (or it being whatever) is another thing which bugs me ^^
2019-08-16T17:32:37Z ManDay_clone: Riastradh: Oh the macro?
2019-08-16T17:32:44Z Riastradh: ManDay_clone: Yes.
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2019-08-16T17:35:59Z ManDay_clone: http://dpaste.com/3HXWWGE
2019-08-16T17:36:01Z ManDay_clone: Your paste can be seen here:
2019-08-16T17:36:07Z ManDay_clone: ^ Riastradh
2019-08-16T17:36:15Z Riastradh: ManDay_clone: And what output do you want?
2019-08-16T17:36:43Z ManDay_clone: What do you mean?
2019-08-16T17:37:11Z Riastradh: What do you want (recursive-pk (1 2 3 4 5) "x") to expand to?
2019-08-16T17:37:34Z ManDay_clone: To exactly what it does. I just dislike the way it is written.
2019-08-16T17:37:54Z ManDay_clone: The "corpus" which does the recursion is replicated among the two cases.
2019-08-16T17:38:11Z ManDay_clone: s/does the recursion/performs the recursive task/
2019-08-16T17:38:15Z Zipheir: Because the base case is wrong.
2019-08-16T17:38:33Z Zipheir: OK, no, sorry.
2019-08-16T17:38:42Z Riastradh: What about the following single-rule definition?  (define-syntax recursive-pk (syntax-rules () ((recursive-pk (a ...) b) (begin (pk (quote (a b))) ...))))?
2019-08-16T17:40:45Z Zipheir: It's a misleading piece of syntax, since the list in (rec-pk (a) b) doesn't mean anything.
2019-08-16T17:41:00Z Zipheir: So I think the problem is that the macro needs to be rethought.
2019-08-16T17:41:14Z ManDay_clone: Riastradh: That works. Let me figure out whether this approach works for my original purpose which was slightly more complicated.
2019-08-16T17:42:39Z Riastradh: What's the original purpose?
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2019-08-16T17:44:55Z ManDay_clone: My original purpose was that: Write a macro for (my-let ((var1 data1) ...) body)  which will bind `(myfunc dataN)` to `varN` for `body` if all (myfunc dataN) evaluate to something other than #f. If any (myfunc dataN) evaluates to #f, the expression evaluates to #f without executing body.
2019-08-16T17:45:01Z wasamasa: ok, finally figured out something with multiple ellipses
2019-08-16T17:45:15Z wasamasa: (define-syntax appender (syntax-rules (<>) ((_ (a ...) (b ...))  (list a ... b ...))))
2019-08-16T17:45:22Z wasamasa: (appender (1 2 3) (4 5 6)) ;=> (1 2 3 4 5 6)
2019-08-16T17:46:00Z wasamasa: super silly, but it works to illustrate alternative ellipsis syntax
2019-08-16T17:46:06Z Riastradh: ManDay_clone: Sounds like you need something recursive, then, because you need increasing nesting structure -- a new if -- for each clause.
2019-08-16T17:46:50Z ManDay_clone: Riastradh: yeah, i think you're right
2019-08-16T17:46:56Z gwatt: wasamasa: also (define-syntax flatten (syntax-rules () ((_ (a ...) ...) (list a ... ...))))
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2019-08-16T17:47:14Z Riastradh: ManDay_clone: (define-syntax my-let (syntax-rules () ((my-let () b0 b1+ ...) (let () b0 b1+ ...)) ((my-let ((x0 e0) (x1+ e1+) ...) b0 b1+ ...) (let ((x0 e0)) (and x0 (my-let ((x1+ e1+) ...) b0 b1+ ...]
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2019-08-16T17:47:38Z wasamasa: gwatt: interesting
2019-08-16T17:47:50Z wasamasa: gwatt: I can see why some people try doing programming with template expansion now :>
2019-08-16T17:48:00Z Riastradh: Some of the verbiage in that can be elided, but consistently putting b0 b1+ ... and (x1+ e1+) ... in the patterns helps to detect syntax errors early like (my-let () 1 . 2) or (my-let ((x 1) a b c) x).
2019-08-16T17:48:14Z ManDay_clone: wasamasa: what's the point of the "(<>)" in your example?
2019-08-16T17:48:23Z wasamasa: it's a leftover
2019-08-16T17:48:31Z wasamasa: I wanted to separate the parts to join with <>
2019-08-16T17:48:40Z ManDay_clone: ok
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2019-08-16T17:48:49Z Zipheir: Infixy.
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2019-08-16T17:49:45Z wasamasa: gwatt: I don't quite get how that works, does the first ellipsis bind stronger than the second one?
2019-08-16T17:50:04Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Read it like (a ...) ... but without the parentheses.
2019-08-16T17:50:17Z ManDay_clone: Riastradh: hm, okay. it may work though I'm not sure how far your tricks will carry you :)
2019-08-16T17:50:34Z Riastradh: So yes, the first ellipsis binds stronger than the second one; what would ... ... mean otherwise?
2019-08-16T17:50:38Z wasamasa: from the little I've read syntax-rules is plenty for implementing scheme
2019-08-16T17:50:41Z ManDay_clone: in the end there might be a case where the recursion will be needed in which case we got that redundancy again
2019-08-16T17:51:07Z ManDay_clone: Riastradh: thanks
2019-08-16T17:51:09Z Riastradh: ManDay_clone: Pretty far, really.  See, e.g., <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.scm>, <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/syn-param.scm>, <https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.scm>.
2019-08-16T17:51:11Z gwatt: wasamasa: I'm not sure I understand "bind stronger".
2019-08-16T17:51:18Z wasamasa: Riastradh: I've expected it to be a syntactical error for an ellipsis to not be preceded by an identifier
2019-08-16T17:51:55Z Riastradh: gwatt: Means the grouping is like [[a ...] ...] rather than like [a [... ...]].
2019-08-16T17:52:03Z wasamasa: exactly
2019-08-16T17:52:08Z Zipheir: I'd like some more specific guidelines on where ... can occur legally in templates.  That or I'm just incapable of making sense of the standard there.
2019-08-16T17:52:16Z wasamasa: the grouping resembles patterns I assume
2019-08-16T17:52:34Z gwatt: nope, you can put any arbitrary expression in front of an ellipsis, provided a pattern variable in the expression expects an ellipsis
2019-08-16T17:52:38Z Riastradh: (https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.txt and https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/nested-foof-loop.txt for documentation of some of those macros.)
2019-08-16T17:52:38Z wasamasa: I can see why some people prefer to just use alexpander to get this over with :D
2019-08-16T17:53:12Z Riastradh: Zipheir: It can occur after any form in the template that contains a pattern variable that was followed by ellipsis in the pattern.
2019-08-16T17:53:35Z Riastradh: The rule applies recursively to as many levels of ellipsis as there were in the pattern.
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2019-08-16T17:53:51Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Thanks, that's helpful.
2019-08-16T17:54:40Z Riastradh: There must be at least as many levels of ellipsis in the template as there were in the pattern, but there may be fewer for _some_ variables in the template, as in (foo (a ...) b) => (bar (a b) ...) -- here there are as many for a, but fewer for b.
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2019-08-16T17:56:02Z ManDay_clone: Riastradh: This will probably give me nightmares
2019-08-16T17:56:05Z ManDay_clone: But thanks ^^
2019-08-16T17:57:19Z Zipheir: Riastradh: But how does that expand?  (a a1 ... an b), (a b a1 ... an) ?
2019-08-16T17:57:47Z Riastradh: Zipheir: (foo (1 2 3) x) => (bar (1 x) (2 x) (3 x))
2019-08-16T17:58:11Z Zipheir: Oh, oops.  Of course.
2019-08-16T17:58:45Z ManDay_clone: What's the %LOOP in foof-loop.scm?
2019-08-16T17:59:04Z Riastradh: ManDay_clone: It's an internal macro, like a subroutine (or a collection of subroutines, really; maybe more like a state machine).
2019-08-16T18:00:18Z Riastradh: (%LOOP START <name> <loop-clauses> <body>) kicks it off by initializing some memory to empty lists and jumping to %LOOP GO.
2019-08-16T18:00:55Z ManDay_clone: What does the % do in scheme? I don't know
2019-08-16T18:01:05Z Riastradh: Just part of the name, usually indicates `this is an internal thing, no touchy'.
2019-08-16T18:01:10Z ManDay_clone: oh
2019-08-16T18:02:16Z Riastradh: (%LOOP GO <name> <state> (<clause> <clauses> ...) <body>) processes the first clause <clause>, collecting whatever it can -- variables to be bound, expressions to be evaluated on entry to the loop and on repetition of the loop.  When it's an iterator, like (LOOP ((FOR X (IN-LIST L))) ...), it asks the iterator IN-LIST to please return this information to %LOOP CONTINUE when it's done.
2019-08-16T18:03:18Z Riastradh: It's kind of like a procedure call, but in macros.  You'll see there's no pattern for (%LOOP CONTINUE <stuff>), but there is for (%LOOP <returnvalues> CONTINUE <stuff>) because the iterator is returning some information to the loop macro state machine.
2019-08-16T18:04:07Z ManDay_clone: I'm confused, does %LOOP refer to what is defined by (define-syntax %loop ...) ?
2019-08-16T18:04:17Z Riastradh: Yes.
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2019-08-16T18:04:41Z ManDay_clone: Ah okay, I thought this was case sensitive!
2019-08-16T18:04:44Z Riastradh: It's a big complicated macro that represents a state machine with many different states that makes subroutine calls to other macros.
2019-08-16T18:04:59Z ManDay_clone: It will take me some time to understand o_O
2019-08-16T18:05:45Z Riastradh: Well, I wrote this when case sensitivity was only a niche thing in some Schemes.  Adopting case sensitivity by default happened quite recently in Scheme's history after about 40 years of case insensitivity.
2019-08-16T18:06:36Z Riastradh: So, in these syntax rules, by convention to make them more legible, uppercase means a literal constant, and lowercase means a pattern variable.
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2019-08-16T18:07:11Z ManDay_clone: ah ok :)
2019-08-16T18:07:46Z Riastradh: Another convention is to put ? before each pattern variable.  I used that in syn-param.scm because there are about three nested levels of patterns, so you can use ?foo ??foo ???foo while there's only one uppercase/lowercase distinction.
2019-08-16T18:08:02Z Riastradh: But when there's only one nested level I generally found the uppercase/lowercase distinction more legible.
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2019-08-16T18:32:52Z Zipheir: There does seem to be some latitude among Schemes wrt syntax-rules transcription.  For example, CHICKEN and Guile both have no problem with https://paste.debian.net/1096007, though there are more ellipses in the template than in the pattern.
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2019-08-16T18:33:29Z Riastradh: Zipheir: It's not about the _number_ of ellipsis terms in the template.  It's about the _depth_ within a particular form.
2019-08-16T18:33:51Z Riastradh: In this case, the pattern in which name occurs has ellipsis of depth 1, and likewise for val.
2019-08-16T18:34:00Z Riastradh: The same is true in the template, so it works.
2019-08-16T18:35:48Z Zipheir: But: "Pattern variables that occur in subpatterns followed by one or more instances of the identifier ⟨ellipsis⟩ are allowed only in subtemplates that are followed by as many instances of ⟨ellipsis⟩." (R7 4.3.2)
2019-08-16T18:36:07Z Zipheir: Hmm.
2019-08-16T18:36:08Z Riastradh: That's talking about depth.
2019-08-16T18:36:21Z Zipheir: I guess it is.
2019-08-16T18:36:22Z Riastradh: You could do `val ... val ... val ... val ...' and it would work just as well as `0'.
2019-08-16T18:37:24Z Zipheir: OK, that makes sense now.
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2019-08-16T18:43:14Z Zipheir: But, otherwise, it seems the only guideline the standard provides as to what's possible with transcribing ellipses is that the matching elements are "distributed as indicated".  That seems like a lot of leeway, and I wonder if Schemes differ substantially in their transcription behavior.
2019-08-16T18:43:42Z wasamasa: I'm sure I've seen bug reports of that kind before
2019-08-16T18:43:57Z wasamasa: where someone was comparing alexpander with implementations not using it
2019-08-16T18:44:36Z Riastradh: Zipheir: There are some bugs, like MIT Scheme can't handle (a ...) ... => a ... ....
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2019-08-16T18:44:44Z Riastradh: (some day, maybe I will fix that)
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2019-08-16T19:33:39Z rain2: hello
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2019-08-16T19:44:37Z Zipheir: Hey rain2
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2019-08-16T20:33:32Z jcowan: I like define-record-type because it *doesn't* do auto-creation: I often don't want mutators, and if I'm not going to export the accessors they might as well have short names.  For example, in my portable implementation of SRFI 4, the record type's accessors are "tag" and "bv".
2019-08-16T20:34:14Z jcowan: much nicer than multivector-tag-ref and multivector-bytevector-ref
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2019-08-17T13:25:07Z lloda_: how to define a test-myeq? for srfi-64 that uses your own predicate?
2019-08-17T13:25:25Z lloda_: I cannot use test-assert because I want the suite to report the arguments
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2019-08-17T16:02:33Z amz3: anybody in berlin wants to drink / eat something tonight?
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2019-08-17T16:45:08Z Zipheir: amz3: Sounds fun.  Unfortunately there's an ocean in the way for me.
2019-08-17T17:15:16Z amz3: :/
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2019-08-17T17:18:38Z jcowan: lloda_: You might want to switch to foof's test framework, which is more or less a subset of SRFI 64.  There are versions for Chibi and Chicken, and the Chibi one is quite portable if you remove the (chibi term ansi), which is used to provide coloring.
2019-08-17T17:19:34Z jcowan: It does provide a parameter that lets you supply your own equality function.  The default is to use equal? unless both values are floats, in which case it uses fuzzy numerical equality.
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2019-08-17T18:13:56Z mdhughes: I've been using http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/test and it's nearly ideal. You can set a parameter for a different test-equal
2019-08-17T18:23:25Z jcowan: Yes, that's the one I'm talking about above.
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2019-08-18T21:03:34Z amz3: scheme workshop: done.
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2019-08-18T21:40:37Z lloda_: jcowan: thanks, I'll have a look. Bit disappointed that the many-quotes-standard srfi-64 doesn't allow it.
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2019-08-19T03:21:44Z Riastradh: ...Schemunist manifesto: seize the means of abstraction!
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2019-08-19T03:41:48Z aeth: heh, it's better in Common(ist) Lisp where you can seize the metaobject protocol
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2019-08-19T04:12:10Z Zipheir: Schemunist revolutionaries have good hygiene (unlike the grungy Commonists) and make better agents due to their nice capture-avoidant properties.
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2019-08-19T06:33:09Z lockywolf_: Is there a pdf of the "How to Design Programs" available for the last version?
2019-08-19T06:38:21Z edgar-rft: what if the last version is still not written? :-)
2019-08-19T06:40:38Z edgar-rft: lockywolf_: the newest is the "second edition" from 2018?
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2019-08-19T06:51:12Z lockywolf_: Nope, the edition of 2019-02
2019-08-19T06:53:11Z lockywolf_: pandoc fails on the html
2019-08-19T06:53:46Z lockywolf_: htmldoc's output is not very good, and pictures are not scaled
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2019-08-19T09:46:39Z lockywolf__: I have spent half a day trying to trick pandoc into making me a decent pdf out of the website, and failed
2019-08-19T09:49:04Z wasamasa: use wkhtmltopdf instead
2019-08-19T09:49:39Z lockywolf__: pandoc calls wkhtmltopdf inside
2019-08-19T09:49:49Z lockywolf__: if -t html5
2019-08-19T09:50:22Z wasamasa: then you'll need to use it directly and work on those css skills of yours
2019-08-19T09:50:35Z wasamasa: given enough effort with the content and stylesheet, you can do a ton
2019-08-19T09:52:26Z wasamasa: everything except decent typesetting, that's a job for tex :>
2019-08-19T09:52:53Z lockywolf__: oh, thank you genius
2019-08-19T09:53:10Z lockywolf__: I was totally unaware of that
2019-08-19T09:54:10Z wasamasa: I've looked into the topic for the last few weeks, it appears that you either side for shitty typesetting, use tex or pay a few thousand dollars for proprietary software using xml or html/css
2019-08-19T09:56:48Z lockywolf__: how helpful, thanks a lot
2019-08-19T09:57:01Z lockywolf__: I couldn't have guessed that without your wize remarks
2019-08-19T09:57:21Z wasamasa: the road to enlightenment is long and arduous
2019-08-19T10:00:03Z wasamasa: if you need css help, I've received spontaneous donations on #emacs before for my services :>
2019-08-19T10:03:06Z lockywolf__: spam?
2019-08-19T10:07:52Z wasamasa: no worries, I'm 100% human and know my scheme
2019-08-19T10:11:01Z lockywolf__: no doubt
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2019-08-19T13:09:52Z lloda: is chicken's print just (define (print . args) (for-each display args) (newline)) ? Guessing from usage, I cannot find the definition in the source.
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2019-08-19T13:15:37Z wasamasa: essentially, yes
2019-08-19T13:16:57Z wasamasa: the definitions live in library.scm
2019-08-19T13:19:22Z lloda: oh thx
2019-08-19T13:19:30Z lloda: I was searching wrong
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2019-08-19T19:03:15Z enderby: Hi, I'm wondering if there's a csv parsing library for scheme? I've been having trouble finding one for various implementations
2019-08-19T19:04:18Z amz3: it is easy to parse csv?
2019-08-19T19:04:50Z enderby: oh, is that the reason? i guess i never tried
2019-08-19T19:05:17Z weinholt: the format has a few subtleties
2019-08-19T19:08:41Z amz3: yes, a portable csv would be nice.
2019-08-19T19:08:53Z amz3: yes, a portable csv +parser+ would be nice.
2019-08-19T19:08:59Z Riastradh: amz3: Check the plethora of options of, e.g., the Python csv reader module to get an idea of what you're up against.
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2019-08-19T19:15:27Z enderby: Riastradh: yeah, that's what I was comparing it to (coming from Python, where there's a csv library)
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2019-08-19T19:15:31Z enderby: looks like gerbil has one
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2019-08-19T19:22:26Z wasamasa: amz3: it's easy to botch that job
2019-08-19T19:22:43Z wasamasa: amz3: for example, people hate on ruby pretending it's easy and not dealing well with real-world csv
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2019-08-19T19:36:36Z jcowan: The Python reader is complicated because it tries to do actual CSV and DSV using the same mechanisms. Actual CSV per RFC 4180 is not really difficult.
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2019-08-19T20:26:39Z rain1: the CSV spec is bad imo
2019-08-19T20:27:08Z rain1: https://gist.github.com/rain-1/e6293ec0113c193ecc23d5529461d322 theres racket code for TSV here
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2019-08-19T20:38:11Z jcowan: rain1: You mean the RFC?  What's wrong with it/
2019-08-19T20:38:12Z jcowan: ?
2019-08-19T20:39:50Z rain1: yeah the way it does quotation and escaping
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2019-08-19T21:30:24Z enderby: has anyone had luck using any of the following implementations with emacs (via geiser or otherwise): sagittarius, gambit, gauche, larceny ?
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2019-08-20T01:03:58Z jcowan: rain1: AFAIK quoting by doubling is the normal thing; it's definitely what Excel does.
2019-08-20T01:04:47Z jcowan: The only other thing is that if you want to write out a value beginning with 0, wrapping it in double quotes isn't enough; you also need to prefix it with =.
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2019-08-20T07:13:10Z rain1: http://minikanren.org/workshop/2019/minikanren19-final4.pdf
2019-08-20T07:13:16Z rain1: constructive negation in mk
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2019-08-20T07:14:50Z Zipheir: Cool!
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2019-08-20T11:48:37Z Riastradh: It has come to my attention that I made an error in the arithmetic of some scratch code I hastily threw together last week and posted here with a claim of ~10 MB/sec throughput on a 2.3 GHz CPU, or about 230 cpb.
2019-08-20T11:48:54Z Riastradh: Correcting the error reduces it to ~6 MB/sec, or about 350 cpb: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20190820/uwc.scm
2019-08-20T11:52:16Z Riastradh: (Claim is still limited to the tabulation, not to the display, which is horrific because MIT Scheme's strings and text I/O are painfully slow.)
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2019-08-20T15:58:07Z Zipheir: Wow, Bitbucket is dumping Mercurial. :(
2019-08-20T16:12:16Z jcowan: Yeah.  I'm going to merge my two Scheme BB repos into a single Git repo, possibly somewhere else.  I'm *annoyed*.
2019-08-20T16:12:49Z jcowan: Particularly because there is no GUI method; you have to download, convert, and upload.
2019-08-20T16:15:40Z weinholt: more recruits for the git army! with git-remote-hg you can do: git clone hg::https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/
2019-08-20T16:16:11Z Zipheir: It's especially bad and unprofessional that they're only giving their users until 2020-06 to migrate, at which point they're wiping all hg repos.
2019-08-20T16:16:34Z Zipheir: The git monoculture surges on.
2019-08-20T16:16:47Z pjb: After the Linux monoculture…
2019-08-20T16:17:03Z pjb: The Linus take over continues!
2019-08-20T16:18:33Z Zipheir: It's always been more about GitHub's success than git's, IMHO.
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2019-08-20T16:23:21Z weinholt: aha! after many years of confusion, i now finally found bitbucket's secret search form: https://bitbucket.org/repo/all (they normally only show you your own projects, it's weird)
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2019-08-20T16:25:58Z mdhughes: Well, FUCK. I probably don't have any more hg repos, but that the worst of all possible RCS won is sickening.
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2019-08-20T16:30:20Z Zipheir: Hear, hear.
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2019-08-20T16:35:55Z rain1: is git the worst one?
2019-08-20T16:36:01Z rain1: surely you forgot about fossil
2019-08-20T16:36:07Z rain1: and cvs
2019-08-20T16:36:24Z mdhughes: Fossil and CVS allowed you to merge. Possible Visual SourceSafe is as bad as git, but not worse.
2019-08-20T16:36:41Z rain1: what do you mean by merge?
2019-08-20T16:37:17Z Zipheir: Squabbling, I know, but IMHO both CVS and Fossil are infinitely better than git since they categorically refuse to rewrite history.
2019-08-20T16:37:23Z mdhughes: I mean I write code, you write code, second one to commit gets a reasonable merge editor instead of corrupted files and no way out except to copy your files off and redo.
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2019-08-20T16:39:04Z mdhughes: CVS was a big upgrade from actual RCS; RCS I guess is also as bad as git since you could corrupt everything.
2019-08-20T16:39:55Z mdhughes: I mostly used diff/patch emails until CVS came out.
2019-08-20T16:40:14Z Zipheir: Let's not forget that git will happily GC your commits into oblivion at times ...
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2019-08-20T17:59:44Z gnomon: rain1, pvcs is categorically worse than git.
2019-08-20T18:00:20Z gnomon: Heck, any number of proprietary VCS's are worse than git.
2019-08-20T18:00:32Z gnomon sighs wistfully about Fossil
2019-08-20T18:00:46Z gnomon: Zipheir, do you have a link for the Atlassian announcement about retiring Mercurial support?
2019-08-20T18:00:46Z wasamasa: what about bzr?
2019-08-20T18:00:59Z wasamasa: I briefly looked at it before emacs migrated to git and didn't like it much
2019-08-20T18:01:04Z pjb: I used fossil for a time, but I don't regret having gone to git.
2019-08-20T18:01:29Z gnomon: I love Fossil dearly but I have to use git every day and I have come to not mind it too much.
2019-08-20T18:01:57Z gnomon: -1s/ too / as /
2019-08-20T18:03:55Z Riastradh: bzr is arch, with the insanity toned down to a tolerable level that absolutely nobody is excited about it, positively or negatively, and now I think the world has forgotten it.
2019-08-20T18:05:17Z LeoNerd: I like bzr
2019-08-20T18:06:11Z Riastradh: Took me about a day to get comfortable using darcs, and a decade to get comfortable using git.  But it is an exaggeration to say that git is the worst.
2019-08-20T18:06:14Z gnomon: https://bitbucket.org/blog/sunsetting-mercurial-support-in-bitbucket
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2019-08-20T18:07:02Z wasamasa: ok, that explains why emacs used bzr
2019-08-20T18:07:54Z gnomon: Riastradh, yeah, it took me a few years too.  Making a concerted effort to figure out magit-mode sped up my timeline a bunch.
2019-08-20T18:08:24Z Riastradh: gnomon: Porcelain is scary.
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2019-08-20T18:22:52Z Zipheir: darcs is really elegant code, compared to most VCSs.
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2019-08-20T18:24:11Z gnomon: Riastradh, man, you're not kidding.
2019-08-20T18:24:29Z Zipheir: Somewhere along the line it seems darcs got a reputation for being (a) hard to understand, (b) slow, and (c) not Git.  But it's a really impressive system.
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2019-08-20T18:25:26Z Zipheir: Right, and the plumbing tools are horribly nuts-and-bolts.  Git is a colossal failure of abstraction.
2019-08-20T18:25:55Z wasamasa: `git checkout`
2019-08-20T18:26:12Z wasamasa: consider that there's two new commands in git doing what that one does
2019-08-20T18:27:16Z Zipheir: Poe's Law: https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/
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2019-08-20T18:32:05Z gwatt: I love the git manpage generator
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2019-08-20T18:33:52Z gnomon is coincidentally compiling git v2.23.0 during this conversation
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2019-08-20T18:36:25Z Zipheir: git-sever-head :)
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2019-08-20T18:40:41Z gnomon: Snicker-snack!
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2019-08-20T18:43:29Z Zipheir: "... and with its HEAD / He went galumphing back."
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2019-08-20T18:46:15Z Zipheir: ^^ (extract from early git documentation explaining the meaning of FETCH_HEAD)
2019-08-20T18:46:54Z gnomon: Zipheir, are you serious??  That is wonderful.
2019-08-20T18:47:17Z Zipheir: No, I kid.
2019-08-20T18:47:20Z gnomon: DANGIT
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2019-08-22T01:13:38Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-08-22T01:16:54Z Ober: rudybot: that's it! ty!
2019-08-22T01:16:59Z rudybot: Ober: yeah, that's it, ty
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2019-08-22T07:51:25Z mdhughes: I don't know that pregexp can do pattern replacing. irregex in Chicken lets you specify a series of values, strings are strings, numbers are replace patterns.
2019-08-22T07:53:19Z mdhughes: (irregex-replace/all "#\\{([a-zA-Z0-9]*)\\}" s 1)
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2019-08-22T12:35:31Z amz3: rudybot: what's up in the sky?
2019-08-22T12:35:48Z rudybot: amz3: "Holmes and Watson are on a camping trip. In the middle of the night Holmes wakes up and gives Dr. Watson a nudge. "Watson" he says, "look up in the sky and tell me what you see."
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2019-08-22T12:46:55Z jcowan: "Where are we?"  "Up in that balloon."  "You must be a mathematician."
2019-08-22T12:49:14Z mdhughes: "Have you tried landing and taking off again?" "Oh, we're at the Microsoft compound in Redmond."
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2019-08-22T13:50:36Z jcowan: "How can you tell?"  "Because when I ask you a question, your answer is totally true and entirely worthless."
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2019-08-22T23:50:55Z jcowan: Does anyone know if there is a syntax-rules macro for CL tagbody, or an argument that it can't exist?
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2019-08-23T01:26:06Z Riastradh: jcowan: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/tagbody.scm
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2019-08-23T01:26:44Z jcowan chuckles and mumbles something about "shoulda looked there in the first place"
2019-08-23T01:27:02Z Riastradh: Well, check the mtime.
2019-08-23T01:28:06Z jcowan: Cool.
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2019-08-23T01:28:28Z jcowan: Does it nest properly?  Most tagbody implementations need a global variable to hold the current stack of tagbodies.
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2019-08-23T01:28:50Z jcowan: (For my present purposes it would be all right if it didn't.)
2019-08-23T01:29:00Z Riastradh: Haven't tested but it sure oughta.
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2019-08-23T01:30:28Z Riastradh: Try and see?
2019-08-23T01:30:50Z Riastradh: I tested it on the example in the hyperspec.
2019-08-23T01:31:13Z Riastradh: Excuse me, the first example.  I didn't bother to scroll down until just now to find more than one example.
2019-08-23T01:32:52Z jcowan nods.
2019-08-23T01:33:07Z Riastradh: Anyway, it's lexically scoped, so I see no reason why it would fail to nest.
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2019-08-23T01:33:39Z Riastradh: It even transcends dynamic extent!  Of course, this implementation will kill performance so there's very little reason to use it in practice, but hey.
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2019-08-23T01:35:02Z Riastradh: Oh, I neglected to support integer tags.
2019-08-23T01:35:04Z Riastradh: Ugh.
2019-08-23T01:35:16Z jcowan: I don't care about them.
2019-08-23T01:35:31Z Riastradh: Good, because that can't be done in syntax-rules.
2019-08-23T01:36:01Z Riastradh: I mean, I can make it work for any particular finite set of integers you write down, but the size of the implementation will be proportional to the number of integers in that set.
2019-08-23T01:37:20Z jcowan: I was hoping for a letrec-based implementation, actually
2019-08-23T01:37:39Z Riastradh: This is letrec-based?  (I mean, internal definitions, but same difference.)
2019-08-23T01:38:18Z jcowan examines it more closely
2019-08-23T01:41:24Z Riastradh: Since (go tag) can be a nonlocal exit, in general it is necessary to use a mechanism for nonlocal exits.
2019-08-23T01:42:31Z Riastradh: Of course, I could dig out special cases like (tagbody x (f) (g) (go z) y (u) (v) (go x) z (p) (q) (go y)), but that's probably not much help; e.g., it won't dig into conditionals.
2019-08-23T01:43:01Z Riastradh: Cases like that can already be written as (let () (define (x) (f) (g) (z)) (define (y) (u) (v) (x)) (define (z) (p) (q) (y)) (x)) without tagbody.
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2019-08-23T01:56:01Z jcowan: I probably don't want to actually write a tagbody, just use it as a convenient method of translating imperative code with gotos.
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2019-08-23T07:22:58Z enderby: hi, is there a good resource for learning hygienic macros? I've seen a few examples here and there, but I'm still having trouble understanding the syntax
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2019-08-23T07:36:07Z rain2: enderby: for syntax-rules it can be learned by example from here https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-10.html#%_sec_7.3
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2019-08-23T07:36:26Z rain2: for the more advanced syntax-case there is a good free tutorial https://www.greghendershott.com/fear-of-macros/
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2019-08-23T08:29:56Z olivuser: hello everyone. Is anyone here familiar with "the little schemer" and can help me with a programming workflow question?
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2019-08-23T08:32:12Z olivuser: so my question is this: throughout the book, testing techniques and other "building blocks" are laid out. Since those are building blocks you might want to store, it would make sense to have them in a separate file. yet, as far as I know, test-driven development/programming in scheme happens through the REPL. but how can I make the file and the REPL communicate with each other? I mean I tried geiser but the evaluate in REPL command
2019-08-23T08:32:12Z olivuser:  seemed to not work in buffer.
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2019-08-23T08:55:59Z pjb: olivuser: some lisp implementations (and I would assume some scheme implementations) have a dribble feature.  In Common Lisp, the CL:DRIBBLE  function saves the REPL input (and possibly also output) to a file.
2019-08-23T08:56:58Z pjb: olivuser: but modern programmers tend to use emacs and run scheme as an inferior lisp process.  Then you can just edit a .scm file, and send expressions to the scheme process using C-x C-e.
2019-08-23T08:57:43Z pjb: olivuser: alternatively, you can still just work in the REPL, but since you're in an emacs buffer, it's trivial to save that buffer in a file (like dribble would do), and to edit this file to obtain a source.
2019-08-23T08:58:52Z pjb: olivuser: and finally, nothing prevents you to implement whatever repl feature you want yourself.  I've done something like this in CL with ibcl:  Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2019-08-23T08:59:42Z pjb: olivuser: also, if you use MIT Scheme, you can use edwin (which is an emacs implemented in MIT Scheme), so you can develop your scheme code inside the editor itself like emacs lisp in emacs.
2019-08-23T09:10:08Z olivuser: pjb: thanks a lot! I believe my use case would be closest to your second answer. however this answer I understand only partially, because I dont understand what it means to run scheme (I reckon you mean scheme mode) as an inferior lisp process.
2019-08-23T09:10:39Z olivuser: what I've tried so far is to have a geiser repl and a scm-file open at the same time, but somehow the evaluation (and testing) wouldnt really work
2019-08-23T09:10:46Z mdhughes: Or, you can write unit tests normally in a script. http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/test
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2019-08-23T09:12:41Z mdhughes: When I'm developing, I edit my program, libraries, and test suite in editor, load & import in the REPL to live-test things, run the test suite from command-line.
2019-08-23T09:15:30Z rain2: yes ive read little schemer
2019-08-23T09:15:54Z mdhughes: I got tired of retyping when I updated things, so in my .csirc I have: (define (M) (load "src/marklib.scm") (eval '(import marklib))) and similar for other packages I work on.
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2019-08-23T10:55:15Z jcowan: Something I've been thinking about for a while (unfortunately totally non-portable) is a small set of REPL commands that allows you to noodle about in the REPL, generating test files as you go.
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2019-08-23T10:57:41Z jcowan: the basic idea is that you have a command ,ok or @ok or whatever the REPL's convention is for commands, which writes a test to a currently-open test file in the form (test output input), or if the last input ended in an exception, (test-error input).  Such a file is easily converted to proper Chicken/Chibi test or to SRFI-64.
2019-08-23T10:59:26Z rain2: I think that's an awesome idea
2019-08-23T10:59:43Z rain2: I thought once what if you could just copy and paste a REPL interaction into a file, to create a test script
2019-08-23T11:00:11Z dTal: hm, seems like it would pretty easy to implement a "dribble feature" for Scheme at any rate
2019-08-23T11:00:24Z dTal: you can shadow (define) right?
2019-08-23T11:01:32Z dTal: so you just make a macro that dumps the quoted form to wherever, and then calls the real define
2019-08-23T11:06:04Z jcowan: That's also possible, but I don't normally type defines into a REPL unless they are trivial.
2019-08-23T11:09:12Z lockywolf__: Friends, can someone help me with a newbie question?
2019-08-23T11:09:14Z lockywolf__: https://pastebin.com/di8Jabka
2019-08-23T11:09:50Z lockywolf__: This is my code. It compiles, even runs, but fails at runtime with infinite macro expansion.
2019-08-23T11:10:31Z lockywolf__: How could I splice in the executions of (inc) and (dec) in runtime?
2019-08-23T11:10:42Z lockywolf__: Sorry, in compile time.
2019-08-23T11:12:08Z lockywolf__: I am so much of a newbie with lisps.
2019-08-23T11:12:56Z lockywolf__: But I think that on Emacs lisp I would quote the whole expression and then splice in the results of ,@(dec a)
2019-08-23T11:13:03Z lockywolf__: quasiquote
2019-08-23T11:14:41Z jcowan: Whereas I find writing test files with an editor annoying.  Also I tend to forget whether the order is expected before tested, as in SRFI 64, or tested before expected, as in Python.  (Or is that backwards?)
2019-08-23T11:15:40Z pjb: lockywolf__: syntax are not exactly macros…  They're "hygienic macros".
2019-08-23T11:16:00Z pjb: lockywolf__: if you want inc and dec to be evaluated at run-time, you do just like you did.
2019-08-23T11:18:11Z pjb: lockywolf__: for compilation time, I don't think it's possible with bare syntax. You will have to use  datum->syntax-object and syntax->list, so you may do something like in lisp.
2019-08-23T11:19:37Z lockywolf__: I want compile-time. Everything seems to be already known in the code.
2019-08-23T11:19:54Z lockywolf__: No need to defer anything to the run-time.
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2019-08-23T11:20:16Z lockywolf__: It is just an exercise. I don't plan to do this in production code.
2019-08-23T11:21:22Z pjb: lockywolf__: in CL you would just use a compiler-macro.  In a macro, you would have to test whether the arguments are literals or not.
2019-08-23T11:21:39Z pjb: lockywolf__: ie. everything is known in the case of (plusF 4 5), but not in the case of (plusF x y).
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2019-08-23T11:24:00Z lockywolf__: I have never seen CL, unfortunately. :(
2019-08-23T11:25:06Z lockywolf__: in (plusF x y) aren't x and y free variables?
2019-08-23T11:25:35Z lockywolf__: I should try an elisp defmacro
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2019-08-23T11:34:01Z pjb: lockywolf__: not necessarily. But the point is that at compilation time, there is no value bound to them.  Try to compile: (lambda (x y) (plusF x y))
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2019-08-23T11:51:57Z dTal: seems like something that strict typing would help with
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2019-08-23T12:01:59Z pjb: dTal: not at all. The point is that you don't know what the VALUE will be, not what the TYPE is!
2019-08-23T12:02:13Z pjb: Since we use + and -, we know the type must be number.
2019-08-23T12:02:18Z pjb: No question about it.
2019-08-23T12:03:21Z dTal: but there's a numeric tower, + and - are polymorphic
2019-08-23T12:04:02Z dTal: if you know that x and y are doubles, surely you can absolutely compile that lambda
2019-08-23T12:06:04Z dTal: prehaps I'm misunderstanding this plusF
2019-08-23T12:08:17Z dTal: ...ah. I see.
2019-08-23T12:08:30Z dTal: it's to do with the evaulation model
2019-08-23T12:10:13Z dTal: this seems like another case where a term-rewriting evaluation model would be superior
2019-08-23T12:11:33Z dTal: instead of having distinct "macro/compile-time" and "function/runtime" stages, everything would be modeled as partial evaluation
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2019-08-23T12:12:29Z dTal: Sorry about my initial nonsense comment
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2019-08-23T13:24:49Z mdhughes: What I really want is a REPL which can save all defined state, and tag some commands to save as well. As it is, I sometimes edit my .csi_history to extract what I've live-tested, which is a mess.
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2019-08-23T13:28:45Z mdhughes: jcowan: I learned from early JUnit (taught by Kent Beck hisself) that it's test, expected, butgot. I literally can't use test systems that are opposite order. I'm not quite TDD always, but I make all my pre/post conditions and sample data as tests first, so I know what I'm writing.
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2019-08-23T13:38:27Z pjb: mdhughes: this is nice that you have such a specification.  Go ahead, implement it!
2019-08-23T13:39:00Z pjb: mdhughes: you make be inspired by ibcl: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2019-08-23T13:40:28Z pjb: mdhughes: and this implementation of a CL REPL in CL: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/interactive/interactive.lisp#L181
2019-08-23T13:40:34Z mdhughes: pjb: That's the idea, tho it really hits my "CLISP is hideous" buttons.
2019-08-23T13:41:34Z jcowan: ("CL" is Common Lisp:  "CLISP" is a specific implementation.)
2019-08-23T13:41:57Z pjb: mdhughes: in scheme, the only difficulty is that you will have to use implementation specific features, since the environments you will need to do it are not always available (as per r5rs, r7rs might be more constraining, but I doubt it).  In the worst case, you just re-implement the whole scheme…
2019-08-23T13:42:53Z pjb: mdhughes: another way to implement what you want is to just save the lisp image!  Some scheme implementation may have it.
2019-08-23T13:43:31Z pjb: mdhughes: but you want to save the "sources", to be able to edit them. So you will want something like ibcl.
2019-08-23T13:43:53Z pjb: unless your scheme implementation is already doing it and you can find the source of the functions.
2019-08-23T13:43:55Z mdhughes: That's a terrible idea in practice, because it won't be stable between versions. Smalltalk went that way, but they had one stable binary format per IDE, and you could never change IDEs.
2019-08-23T13:44:39Z pjb: No, it's neutral. It's only a question of tooling.  Nowadays, you can push to git from the Smalltalk images.
2019-08-23T13:44:41Z jcowan: Smalltalk maintains an image, but also maintains source code in a portable format.
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2019-08-23T13:45:01Z pjb: mdhughes: you may want to read about Interlisp.
2019-08-23T13:45:08Z mdhughes: Smalltalk source exports are borderline useless, they don't save any of the live data you made.
2019-08-23T13:45:11Z jcowan: Chibi has images
2019-08-23T13:45:34Z pjb: mdhughes: https://larrymasinter.net/interlisp-ieee.pdf
2019-08-23T13:45:35Z mdhughes: Symbolics did it right, but they're long dead. And nobody seems willing/able to make an equivalent again.
2019-08-23T13:45:53Z jcowan: True.  There are some bits in the ST-80 image (still very much in use by Squeak and its forks) that were set directly prior to 1980.
2019-08-23T13:46:02Z pjb: mdhughes: found a startup, sell it for a billion, finance lisp development.
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2019-08-23T13:46:39Z pjb: mdhughes: or Venus colonisation.  That's the risk, when you have a billion, you might prefer to finance Mars or Venus colonisation rather than lisp development.
2019-08-23T13:47:05Z mdhughes: Well, they did the Venus colonization in The Marching Morons. Guess it's Mars.
2019-08-23T13:47:45Z pjb: Venus would probably be easier.  More energy, more resources.
2019-08-23T13:48:20Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5KV3rzuag
2019-08-23T13:51:36Z jcowan: There's the eccentric zillionaire who left the Poetry Foundation a few zillions in his will, and they bought up the copyright of essentially every (not sure of U.S. or all anglophone) poems ever written and put them on a website.  Naturally lots are in the PD already.
2019-08-23T13:51:38Z pjb: What people don't realize is that the conditions on Venus at 50 km high are very close to Earth surface conditions.  Even the acid rain goes slower, at 50 km high, there's very little bad gases.
2019-08-23T13:51:57Z jcowan: Welcome to Mount Lookitthat.
2019-08-23T13:53:08Z jcowan: Anyway, where does the water come from?
2019-08-23T13:55:15Z pjb: jcowan: CO₂ + 4H₂ => 2H₂O + CH₄
2019-08-23T13:55:28Z pjb: There's a lot of solar energy available to Venus!
2019-08-23T13:55:41Z mdhughes: Sadly Venus Mons^W^W Maxwell Montes is only 11km high.
2019-08-23T13:57:42Z pjb: mdhughes: and the surface is not unaccessible. Only you do it like in this movie where aliens are blue and hybrids bodies are developped to be remotely operated from orbit.
2019-08-23T13:58:12Z pjb: Right, Avatar.
2019-08-23T13:58:20Z pjb: That's the difference between duck duck go and google…
2019-08-23T13:58:30Z mdhughes: And, what, made out of ceramic? The Russians are the only people crazy enough to land on Venus.
2019-08-23T13:59:09Z pjb: mdhughes: yep.
2019-08-23T13:59:42Z pjb: Or with some genetically modified extremophil organism…
2019-08-23T14:00:15Z pjb: Mix the genes of some crab with extermophyle, and add a wifi-brain interface and you're all set :-0
2019-08-23T14:00:20Z pjb: :-)
2019-08-23T14:00:32Z jcowan: pjb: Okay, where does the hydrogen come from?  Cracking sulfuric acid?  That takes metal, lots of metal.  Where does *that* come from?
2019-08-23T14:00:39Z mdhughes: Certainly easier than funding New Symbolics.
2019-08-23T14:00:46Z jcowan: The Terminator XII:  Terminator vs. Extermophyle
2019-08-23T14:01:07Z pjb: jcowan: you order H₂ from Amazon. SpaceX will deliver.
2019-08-23T14:01:29Z jcowan: That's what I thought.
2019-08-23T14:01:46Z pjb: jcowan: just kidding. You can scoop it from the Sun, or if you prefer it colder, from Jupiter, but it will take more time to get back from Jupiter.
2019-08-23T14:02:20Z pjb: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/quantum-teleportation-breakthrough-third-dimension-a9075476.html
2019-08-23T14:02:21Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/SvbBNjqBOE
2019-08-23T14:03:04Z pjb: Eventually, you will just teletransport it when needed, on-demand.
2019-08-23T14:03:14Z pjb: COD Chemistry On Demand… :-)
2019-08-23T14:06:43Z jcowan: When scooping from the Sun, of course, it is best to go at night.
2019-08-23T14:07:23Z jcowan: Amazon will sell you about 30 cc of hydrogen for USD 10, but I have not been able to determine the pressure of the gas except that it is much less than 1 atm.
2019-08-23T14:09:18Z jcowan: An interesting bit is how they keep the gas inside the glass.  The microdefects in the glass are small enough to admit some hydrogen to leak out, but large enough to block nitrogen or bigger.  So the pressure inside drops until there is no longer enough pressure to make it leak, since there is nothing coming in to replace it.  After that, it's stable.
2019-08-23T14:15:54Z Riastradh: enderby: Maybe Joe Marshall's `syntax-rules primer for the merely eccentric' (a curious title arising from its being written as a response to Al* Petrofsky's `syntax-rules primer for the mildly insane').
2019-08-23T14:17:52Z Riastradh: pjb: `syntax are not exactly macros' is false.  Please take your Common Lisp confusion elsewhere.
2019-08-23T14:19:17Z rain2: he is never going to stop trolling people here
2019-08-23T14:27:47Z Ober: ^^
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2019-08-23T14:32:11Z jcowan: SRPME is really excellent.  My method for reading it:  read until you no longer understand, and you will have as much macrology as you can handle right then.  When you need more, go back to the beginning and read again.  I have never actually made it to the end, but I don't care.
2019-08-23T14:33:39Z jcowan: SRFI 148 also provides a large subset of Scheme implemented using syntax-rules alone. The only issue is that you need to use a Scheme that will invoke a syntax transformer rather than just insisting that it be syntax-rules.
2019-08-23T14:34:12Z jcowan: (If necessary, you can retrofit this by reimplementing define-syntax and friends using the method of SRFI 147.)
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2019-08-23T14:59:01Z gwatt: which schemes hard require syntax-rules?
2019-08-23T15:01:55Z Riastradh: What does `hard require syntax-rules' mean?
2019-08-23T15:02:59Z gwatt: the only thing acceptable for define-syntax is a literal syntax-rules expression
2019-08-23T15:03:52Z Riastradh: Oh, I dunno.
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2019-08-23T16:29:56Z jcowan: gwatt: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/SyntaxDefinitions.md
2019-08-23T16:30:19Z jcowan: You can find a whole lot about a whole lot of Schemes by starting at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ImplementationContrasts.md and chasing links.
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2019-08-23T17:01:47Z enderby: rain2 Riastradh jcowan thanks for the links / info on macros/syntax-rules. diving in now :)
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2019-08-23T17:02:25Z amz3: yw
2019-08-23T17:03:31Z amz3: I updated the slides @ https://speakerdeck.com/amz3/functional-databases
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2019-08-23T17:34:07Z Ober: inserts are state changes
2019-08-23T17:37:14Z amz3: ?
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2019-08-23T18:22:43Z amz3: rudybot: what is the point of lisp?
2019-08-23T18:23:01Z rudybot: amz3: honestly by what I've heard here I don't really think it would work out. I suppose I'll have to do more research into it, but I just don't think I have the skills about how to work with Racket enough to do it, and this would be way too large to get up to that point in experience. I will have to write the client in Racket, and use lisp for a lot of the server-side controls, but I don't think I can use it for the internal
2019-08-23T18:23:28Z amz3: rudybot: too bad, lisp is great
2019-08-23T18:23:29Z rudybot: amz3: well it's not so much "the industry" as society as a whole, trying to understand why bad methods are popular and great ideas go neglected isn't exclusive to software, that's just a human problem. part of it is of course because of the inertia principle. hyperbolically, /everyone/ says "if lisp was such a great idea then why isn't it popular" and therefore since it isn't popular it must not be a great idea. :(
2019-08-23T18:23:52Z amz3: exactly
2019-08-23T18:25:58Z amz3: I made demo of gambit scheme backend, todomvc: https://scheme-live.github.io/scheme-fuss/todomvc/
2019-08-23T18:26:16Z amz3: TAB + ENTER to add a todo, or click on TODO, I was too lazy to add the ENTER shortcut
2019-08-23T18:26:39Z amz3: s/backend/javascript backend/
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2019-08-23T18:30:52Z shakdwipeea: amz3:Looks interesting. I am interested to know about the approach you took for handling the state and dom.
2019-08-23T18:31:07Z amz3: shakdwipeea: I use react
2019-08-23T18:31:13Z amz3: the state?
2019-08-23T18:31:43Z amz3: shakdwipeea: what is the state?
2019-08-23T18:32:00Z shakdwipeea: sth like redux for react
2019-08-23T18:32:19Z amz3: shakdwipeea: here is the code of the view https://github.com/scheme-live/scheme-fuss/blob/master/todomvc/app.scm#L87
2019-08-23T18:32:42Z amz3: shakdwipeea: well, there is no probleme with the state ala redux.
2019-08-23T18:33:19Z amz3: event handler are bound to procedure, that need to return the new state.
2019-08-23T18:33:27Z amz3: shakdwipeea: it is very. simple.
2019-08-23T18:35:02Z amz3: shakdwipeea: I created a js framework, that is based on that work, you might have an easier time if you read the javascript https://github.com/amirouche/ff.js#ffjs
2019-08-23T18:35:24Z amz3: I don't understand why redux is so complex.
2019-08-23T18:37:18Z shakdwipeea: Well I find whole of the react / redux thing to be too complex to write atleast in js. I really like the reagent / re-frame take on that.
2019-08-23T18:38:08Z shakdwipeea: https://github.com/scheme-live/scheme-fuss/blob/master/todomvc/app.scm#L6 What does this line do ?
2019-08-23T18:38:37Z amz3: it calls javascript
2019-08-23T18:38:46Z amz3: it calls the reactjs render thing
2019-08-23T18:39:01Z amz3: it will mount the translate sxml and mount it in the dom
2019-08-23T18:39:01Z shakdwipeea: Oh Alright, got it.
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2019-08-23T18:40:51Z amz3: the only thing that is missing in this code AFAIK, is xhr support and controllers (reducer in redux terms) should return a procedure
2019-08-23T18:41:29Z amz3: I don't know reframe and reagent
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2019-08-23T18:43:01Z shakdwipeea: Those are clojurescript's libraries for react (reagent) and state management (re-frame) https://github.com/Day8/re-frame
2019-08-23T18:45:55Z amz3: tx for the links
2019-08-23T18:46:01Z amz3: s/links/link/
2019-08-23T18:46:18Z amz3: well, sure thing I can not write that much about my work
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2019-08-23T19:35:19Z jcowan: amz3: I have been working out a set of conventions for representing Lisp(y) objects in ASN.1 DER
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2019-08-23T19:35:47Z jcowan: this is intended as a binary serialization convention that's pretty universal
2019-08-23T19:37:02Z amz3: ok
2019-08-23T19:37:30Z jcowan: the beginnings of documentation are in a Google spreadsheet at http://tinyurl.com/lisp-encoding-rules
2019-08-23T19:38:07Z amz3: does it preserve lexicographic order?
2019-08-23T19:38:34Z jcowan: Between types the order is arbitrary, but in the same (compound) type, yes.
2019-08-23T19:38:51Z amz3: oh interesting
2019-08-23T19:39:02Z rain2: why ASN.1?
2019-08-23T19:39:02Z jcowan: Integers are 2's complement so they don't get ordered correctly, neither do floats
2019-08-23T19:39:35Z jcowan: Like any standard, it minimizes the amount of arbitrary choices I have to make.
2019-08-23T19:39:53Z jcowan: Also there are tools for processing it if you stick to the standard types.
2019-08-23T19:40:15Z amz3: why are you working on this? is it part of r7rs?
2019-08-23T19:40:24Z jcowan: Pretty much all I did was assign type codes to various Lisp types in the "private agreement" (as opposed to "application use") range.
2019-08-23T19:40:27Z amz3: or is it part of your $work
2019-08-23T19:40:37Z jcowan: No, nothing $LISP is part of $WORK
2019-08-23T19:40:49Z jcowan: so yes, I think it might be a good SRFI to have
2019-08-23T19:41:19Z rain2: https://gist.github.com/rain-1/a253e47b939fc0769524d8716541c96e
2019-08-23T19:41:28Z rain2: this is a similar kind of thing
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2019-08-23T19:43:37Z jcowan: yes.  ASN.1 values are Type-Length-Value, where Type specifies the type of object, Length is a bignum representing the number of content bytes, and Content is either raw binary or embedded values, which can be discerned from Type (1 or rarely 2 bytes) even if you don't know what the type actually means.
2019-08-23T19:43:57Z jcowan: s/bignum/self-delimiting bignum
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2019-08-23T19:44:48Z jcowan: The only thing annoying about it IMO is that all numbers are big-endian, which is "network order" but there are very few remaining BE CPUs.
2019-08-23T19:46:03Z jcowan: still, byte swapping is cheap especially since it can be unconditional
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2019-08-23T19:46:45Z jcowan: Okay, can someone chase the tinyurl link and see if it works now?
2019-08-23T19:46:52Z amz3: yes it works
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2019-08-23T19:47:52Z amz3: "2's complement so they don't get ordered correctly" => that means it doesn't preserve natural order of integers? negative and positive?
2019-08-23T19:49:42Z jcowan: right
2019-08-23T19:49:56Z amz3: ok
2019-08-23T19:50:11Z jcowan: they are treated as if unsigned, so the largest negative # sorts after the largest positive number and so on down to -1.
2019-08-23T19:50:26Z jcowan: (at a given size)
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2019-08-23T19:59:34Z amz3: that somewhat unfortunate
2019-08-23T20:00:18Z amz3: in the current lex packing procedure all integers are sorted in order -123456 before 0 etc..
2019-08-23T20:00:35Z amz3: I don't remember how big integer can be
2019-08-23T20:00:50Z amz3: I think they can be as big as you but I am not sure
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2019-08-23T20:36:25Z Riastradh: jcowan: Identified any applications yet?
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2019-08-24T01:30:58Z mdhughes: jcowan: The mapping type is pretty vague. alist? hash-table? What do you do for round-tripping a hash-table?
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2019-08-24T02:18:25Z Riastradh: ...ugh, what a hash I made of that.  Why did I think caching the floating-point environment in the current thread was a good idea.
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2019-08-24T03:24:35Z jcowan: mdhughes: Hash table or immutable mapping.   In general, mutability vs. immutability is not preserved.
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2019-08-24T08:40:33Z tramplefoot: aye folks
2019-08-24T08:41:11Z tramplefoot: did anyone read this book "Concrete Abstractions", is it any worth reading?
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2019-08-24T10:19:38Z edgar-rft: maybe if you work with concrete a lot
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2019-08-24T17:56:06Z ids1024: Is the EBNF in the r7rs report available anywhere in a machine-readable format? (I know the .tex code the pdf is built from is available, but that's not exactly a convenient form)
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2019-08-24T18:16:49Z jcowan: ids1024: Not that I know of, but if you find it or develop it, I'll be glad to put it in the repo.
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2019-08-25T03:13:07Z Riastradh: ids1024: Well, the TeX source code is machine-readable in some sense.  Maybe you can teach TeX to spit out the form you want?
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2019-08-25T07:19:23Z dansimon: Hi guys, is there any way to mine out just yyyy-mm-dd from (current-date) in racket..?
2019-08-25T07:20:49Z pjb: dansimon: yes.
2019-08-25T07:21:37Z dansimon: pjb: how? is there a scheme equivalent to lisp's multiple-value-bind..?
2019-08-25T07:22:07Z pjb: Yes, there are multiple values also in scheme.
2019-08-25T07:22:34Z pjb: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/values.html
2019-08-25T07:25:37Z dansimon: pjb: Thanks, but this does not exactly answer my question. I'm still at a loss as to how I can call (current-date) and map the values to year,month,date ect...
2019-08-25T07:27:24Z weinholt: dansimon, srfi-19 might do the job
2019-08-25T07:28:12Z dansimon: weinholt: thanks, I'll check it out :)
2019-08-25T07:29:16Z pjb: I cannot help you, current-date doesn't exist in racket: https://docs.racket-lang.org/search/index.html?q=current-date
2019-08-25T07:31:07Z pjb: Oh, strange, after a few minutes, the documentation for current-date appears…
2019-08-25T07:31:18Z pjb: What a crazy documentation web site!
2019-08-25T07:32:06Z pjb: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/time.html?q=current-date#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fdate..rkt%29._current-date%29%29
2019-08-25T07:32:07Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/ehbWMpc7Oa
2019-08-25T07:32:13Z dansimon: yeah... I found it here: https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/time.html
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2019-08-25T07:38:58Z dansimon: hm... I'm trying to use (define-values (sec min hr...) (values (current-date))), but I get the error expected number of values: 10, received: 1...
2019-08-25T07:42:39Z lockywolf: Hi, everyone...
2019-08-25T07:42:48Z lockywolf: https://pastebin.com/YuM4yvgR
2019-08-25T07:43:03Z lockywolf: How can I port this exercise to Scheme?
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2019-08-25T07:46:31Z lockywolf: I am trying to show in which way iterative procedures differ from genuinely recursive (or you can express it as tail-recursive differ from non tail-recursive).
2019-08-25T07:47:14Z lockywolf: And my Emacs Lisp solution seems very simple, just three lines, but I don't seem to understand how to express this in Scheme.
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2019-08-25T08:20:00Z mdhughes: dansimon: the return is already a value object, you don't need to wrap it in another one. s/(values x)/x/
2019-08-25T08:24:58Z dansimon: mdhughes: thanks! I still get the same error though; expected values 10, received 1. It seems like I need to split (current-date) into a list of strings..?
2019-08-25T08:32:41Z mdhughes: No, turns out it's a struct, not a values or list: (date*? (current-date))
2019-08-25T08:35:08Z dansimon: yes thats right, however I still cannot seem to convert this into a list of usable variables. I'm totally new to scheme, and I'm afraid I'm quite stuck...
2019-08-25T08:36:02Z dansimon: (define-values (sec min hr...) (date*? (current-date))) still returns the same error, expected 10 values, received 1.
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2019-08-25T08:36:51Z dansimon: Actually I'm only interested in day, month and year of the *date struct, is there any way to mine out this info..?
2019-08-25T08:36:58Z mdhughes: (let [(d (current-date))] (printf "~A:~A:~A" (date-hour d) (date-minute d) (date-second d)) )
2019-08-25T08:37:03Z mdhughes: And so on.
2019-08-25T08:37:11Z dansimon: Aha!
2019-08-25T08:37:23Z mdhughes: Racket structs are what everyone else calls records.
2019-08-25T08:37:44Z mdhughes: It's just name-field, name-field-set! for the accessors.
2019-08-25T08:40:00Z dansimon: hm... (let (d (current-date)) (printf "~A:~A:~A" (date-hour d) (date-minute d) (date-second d))), returns: let: bad syntax (not an identifier and expression for a binding)
2019-08-25T08:40:41Z mdhughes: You need an extra paren (or bracket) around the list of lets, like I did.
2019-08-25T08:40:50Z dansimon: oh, ok
2019-08-25T08:41:35Z mdhughes: [] {} are just sugar in modern schemes for ()
2019-08-25T08:42:08Z dansimon: hey, it worked! thanks man :D
2019-08-25T08:42:18Z mdhughes: np!
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2019-08-25T11:22:14Z dansimon: Hi guys! I'm working on a very simple note taking script, mainly as an educational effort. The scheme code is almost exactly how I want it (https://pastebin.com/KveEd1hg), except for one thing: I want (current-command-line-arguments) to print out "my args", not "(my args)". Any ideas?
2019-08-25T11:23:35Z dansimon: please feel free to criticize other aspects of the code ;)
2019-08-25T11:33:08Z pjb: This page has been removed!
2019-08-25T11:38:13Z dansimon: pjb: are you talking to me?
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2019-08-25T11:42:34Z pjb: Yes.
2019-08-25T11:43:06Z dansimon: Strange... the pastebin url works fine over here...
2019-08-25T11:43:26Z pjb: This page is no longer available. It has either expired, been removed by its creator, or removed by one of the Pastebin staff.
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2019-08-25T11:43:43Z pjb: Ah, it's the parenthesis!
2019-08-25T11:43:59Z pjb: Can't you just paste urls without adornments?
2019-08-25T11:44:11Z dansimon: pjb: Ah, sorry!
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2019-08-25T11:45:12Z dansimon: Ironic though, since I was complaining about scheme throwing in unwanted parenthesis :)
2019-08-25T11:45:24Z pjb: If fprintf  is like CL:FORMAT, then ~{~A~^ ~} instead of ~A.
2019-08-25T11:45:59Z pjb: and it doesn't return it, it prints it!
2019-08-25T11:47:32Z dansimon: nope, error: explanation: tag `~{' not allowed
2019-08-25T12:00:13Z dansimon: looking at https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Writing.html#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._fprintf%29%29 it does not seem like fprintf in scheme supports any loop constructs like ~{ ~}.
2019-08-25T12:29:14Z dansimon: got to go, but thanks for all the support guys, keep hacking :)
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2019-08-25T14:51:37Z mdhughes: dansimon: What do you want from it, a string with spaces between arg items? It's string-join in srfi-13 https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-13/srfi-13.html#string-join
2019-08-25T14:52:48Z mdhughes: printf in Scheme normally doesn't have any special modifiers, just basic ~A, etc. So you tend to assemble things with map, apply, and print or whatever.
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2019-08-25T14:59:08Z mdhughes: Really serious Schemers use display and newline.
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2019-08-25T15:31:07Z Riastradh: Really serious Schemers eschew a language appropriate for the task and limit themselves to primitive components?
2019-08-25T15:37:46Z mdhughes: Less library dependencies, more portability.
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2019-08-25T16:57:53Z mdhughes: Is there a logging SRFI?
2019-08-25T17:01:54Z mdhughes: Ideally something equivalent to https://docs.python.org/3/library/logging.html
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2019-08-25T17:15:40Z gwatt: mdhughes: probably but using it would go against what "really serious schemers" do...
2019-08-25T17:16:50Z mdhughes: Yes, so I build up my logging API from display and newline. Is fine. But has someone already done this, and I can't find a useful version, or has nobody written software that logs to anything but stderr?
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2019-08-25T17:19:50Z DKordic: I agree with mdhughes on printf.
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2019-08-25T17:29:09Z rain1: I always (define (print x) (display x) (newline))
2019-08-25T17:29:18Z rain1: print makes things so much easier
2019-08-25T17:29:34Z rain1: but if you wanted more complete formatting, i would recommend a s-exp based formatting language rather than format strings
2019-08-25T17:29:53Z pjb: rain1: (define (print x) (display x) (newline) x)
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2019-08-25T17:30:34Z pjb: So you can debug wrapping subexpressions in print: (print (if (= 0 (print a)) (+ x y) (- x y)))
2019-08-25T17:36:59Z mdhughes: This is what I'm talking about with logging, tho. I don't want nested prints talking over each other, and (current-error-port) all over is annoying.
2019-08-25T17:38:24Z mdhughes: And for serious stuff I want a hard log file. Looking at the file APIs, goddamned Windows can't even do file locking?!
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2019-08-25T17:38:46Z mdhughes: (table-flip)
2019-08-25T17:38:57Z jcowan: Neither can Posix, reliably. The safest thing is to log to either syslog or a SQLite database.
2019-08-25T17:41:59Z mdhughes: fcntl should always work.
2019-08-25T17:43:14Z mdhughes: (assuming you're not a C program forking your process inside the log function)
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2019-08-25T18:06:27Z jcowan: http://0pointer.net/blog/projects/locking.html <-- "On the Brokenness of File Locking"
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2019-08-25T18:08:16Z mdhughes: Which is what I said: Don't fork inside your log function.
2019-08-25T18:09:00Z jcowan: One of the first complaints about Research Unix when it first left Bell Labs was the lack of locking.  dmr and ken's reply was that locking was neither necessary nor sufficient (e.g. in an editor that made an in-memory copy of what it was editing, not common at the time), and that's still pretty much true.
2019-08-25T18:09:39Z jcowan: Forking is just one of the problems: having a file open on multiple fds is another.  So you have to thread the locking fd throughout your code (or make it global, which has its own problems).
2019-08-25T18:10:44Z mdhughes: You don't keep a log file descriptor open, usually. Same for anything you'd lock, you open, write, close. Every millisecond you're locked is a deadlock waiting to happen.
2019-08-25T18:10:47Z jcowan: Logging to a local file is also much less manageable than syslog.  Since syslog has a de facto standard protocol (RFC 5424), any Scheme with socket I/O should be able to handle it.
2019-08-25T18:11:21Z jcowan: Well, then, what happens when two threads both try to log at the same time?  Boom.
2019-08-25T18:11:28Z jcowan: s/two/more than two
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2019-08-25T18:11:38Z mdhughes: Can't syslog to an arbitrary file. Can't rotate syslogs on your own.
2019-08-25T18:11:56Z mdhughes: Then one thread gets a file lock, writes, closes, the other blocks until then.
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2019-08-25T18:13:44Z mdhughes: If I think it's a problem and I write a lot of multithreaded code, A) Each pid can write to its own log, or B) I can background thread a log queue.
2019-08-25T18:14:15Z mdhughes: But the log4j model works for millions of shipped programs. It'll be fine.
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2019-08-25T18:36:20Z jcowan: Log4j's WriterAppender class uses no sort of OS locking.  It keeps the file open from start to finish, and it writes and optionally flushes.  That's it.  There may be (I haven't looked) synchronized methods upstream that allow multiple threads to write safely, but nothing for multiple processes.  It works -- until it doesn't.
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2019-08-25T18:46:21Z mdhughes: Java doesn't have multiple processes or forks, only threads, and the original was heavily synchronized. Current one's some kind of background thread, IIRC, I haven't written Java in anger in ~10 years.
2019-08-25T18:47:34Z mdhughes: But the lock has to go somewhere, in filesystem or semaphore. file locking's the easiest. I'm nearly done writing my first prototype, so I'll see how that goes.
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2019-08-25T19:11:59Z jcowan: Java doesn't "have" multiple processes at the Java level, ut of course ou can run multiple JVMs.
2019-08-25T19:12:47Z jcowan: To say nothing of multiple JVMs on multiple machines using NFS mounts (where Posix locking reliability depends on the NFS in use).
2019-08-25T19:13:11Z jcowan: *@#$* this keyboard, so many keys stick randomly
2019-08-25T19:13:21Z mdhughes: I've not seen an NFS mount in this century.
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2019-08-25T19:42:58Z jcowan: I used one in 2000-2005 to export a set of static files to a web server.
2019-08-25T19:43:53Z jcowan: NFS is perfectly safe as long as you always mount read-only, which I did.
2019-08-25T19:44:23Z jcowan: "static" in the sense that they were served unchanged by Apache, not in the sense that the files themselves never changed.)
2019-08-25T19:44:38Z jcowan: Samba would have been an alternative, but I'm not sure it was production-ready by then.
2019-08-25T19:46:00Z jcowan: https://www.infoworld.com/article/2612735/old-nfs-is-the-new-darling-in-virtualization.html (2013)
2019-08-25T19:47:58Z jcowan: https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/8ashx1/is_it_possible_to_use_an_nfs_share_as_the_main/ (2018)
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2019-08-25T20:08:09Z Riastradh: I use nfs pretty often.  Handy for netbooting various different computers during OS development.
2019-08-25T20:12:23Z mdhughes: In either case, NFS works with file locking as long as you have versions made in the last 30-ish years.
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2019-08-25T20:26:50Z mdhughes: So far my locking solution is acceptable speed for enterprisey tasks, 8.262s for 100,000 calls. I get 7.675s by using an integer timestamp instead of iso8601.
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2019-08-25T20:43:48Z mdhughes: Still need to add message formatters, log rotation, stuff like that. Be up on a repo when that's done. A good day's work.
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2019-08-25T20:51:25Z mdhughes: And I just remembered, Windows normally locks all files when you open them, doesn't release until you close. Which is incredibly stupid if you're opening to read or append, but Redmond's finest minds.
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2019-08-25T21:11:18Z jcowan: I think that's for compatibility with MS-DOS (or the FAT file system)
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2019-08-25T21:52:14Z dto: hi. i am wondering if i could ask for a second set of eyes on a snippet of Scheme code for the SND editor. i seem to be doing something wrong with my loop, which only seems to run once no matter what I do. "num-blocks" is 51 which is what i expect on the input file, but putting in a print statement shows the loop only runs once. what am i doing wrong? https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GWuqkk1u/
2019-08-25T21:52:28Z dto: i'm new to scheme specifically although i have programmed in CL and elisp
2019-08-25T21:52:53Z dto: i based this on one of the example scheme routines, i'm trying to duplicate each block of an audio file. (block size definable)
2019-08-25T21:53:02Z dto: so that ABCD becomes AABBCCDD
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2019-08-25T21:57:40Z pjb: I would write: (define (mosaic sound block-size) (unsplit-sound-from-blocks (mapcan (lambda (block) (list block block)) (split-sound-in-blocks sound block-size))))
2019-08-25T21:57:48Z pjb: with mapcan like CL:MAPCAN.
2019-08-25T22:09:24Z dto: oh, unsplit-sound-from-blocks and split-sound-in-blocks are included functions?
2019-08-25T22:09:29Z dto: one moment
2019-08-25T22:10:18Z dto: hmm.
2019-08-25T22:11:09Z Riastradh: By mapcan pjb means append-map!, because after years of hanging out here he hasn't bothered to learn Scheme.
2019-08-25T22:11:40Z Riastradh: (nor to give a disclaimer to the novices he confuses)
2019-08-25T22:11:58Z dto: oh thanks :)
2019-08-25T22:12:03Z dto: hello Riastradh and pjb
2019-08-25T22:12:43Z Riastradh: dto: Where did you put the print?
2019-08-25T22:13:05Z dto: inside the command portion of the DO loop, just before the statement that is actully supposed to run each iteration
2019-08-25T22:13:25Z Riastradh: Can you print n and num-blocks too, and show the code with the print?
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2019-08-25T22:32:31Z dto: yes. i'm splitting the function apart and doing that right now. alog the lines you suggest, i.e. a function to split into regions, and another to piece them together.
2019-08-25T22:32:38Z dto: thus far the N and NUM-blocks are what i expect. brb
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2019-08-25T22:33:37Z manWithNoName: Greetings, Program!
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2019-08-25T22:49:27Z dto: Riastradh: the first part (split) seems to work, but the same "do only happens once" problem is happening again with the 2nd function (the merge function) https://pastebin.com/raw/QVSzE2Gp
2019-08-25T22:49:34Z dto: i don't know what i'm doing wrong.
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2019-08-25T22:59:27Z Riastradh: What output does it print?
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2019-08-25T23:17:04Z dto: Riastradh: it printed the numbers i expected, but i think i don't understand something about how SND works. i did finally get this to work! show you here:
2019-08-25T23:17:12Z dto: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/oM0SeIdN/
2019-08-25T23:17:35Z dto: Riastradh: thanks for your help.
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2019-08-25T23:24:34Z ACuriousWife: greetings all :-)
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2019-08-26T00:28:36Z Riastradh: jcowan: I just fixed a bug that was introduced in 2006 or 2007 or so which serves as evidence that nobody ever uses restarts...
2019-08-26T00:28:46Z Riastradh: (not conclusive, just evidence)
2019-08-26T00:29:22Z Riastradh: Specifically, the logic to implement restarts for undefined and unassigned variable references would cause MIT Scheme to tell you `Anomalous microcode frame -- get a wizard.'
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2019-08-26T00:31:24Z Riastradh: Working on fixing another bug affecting the same restarts that looks like it was introduced in...
2019-08-26T00:31:39Z Riastradh: Not entirely sure, but around 1989 or so.
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2019-08-26T00:32:46Z Riastradh: (Fixing these because I added an automatic test that is now causing Scheme to barf its guts out when all debugging options are enabled, while I'm trying to debug something unrelated in the automatic tests that happens only if you do a full test suite run.)
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2019-08-26T00:37:43Z jcowan: Another explanation would be that nobody uses MIT Scheme.
2019-08-26T00:38:05Z Riastradh: Certainly not!  There are at least... hmm, about three people who do.
2019-08-26T00:39:19Z jcowan: I think I may need to install it, though.
2019-08-26T00:44:29Z Riastradh: I just added aarch64 support, so you can install it on your rpi3!  (though first you'll have to install it on an x86 and cross-compile it since there's no aarch64 distribution released yet)
2019-08-26T00:45:37Z Riastradh: (and I mean I just added native code support; it did support aarch64 very slowly through compilation to C or byte code)
2019-08-26T00:47:14Z gwatt: Riastradh: what are your thoughts on arm64 vs arm32 ?
2019-08-26T00:49:09Z Riastradh: What kind of thoughts did you have in mind?  64-bit is pretty much always better except that it has slightly higher memory bandwidth because pointers are larger.
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2019-08-26T00:52:23Z gwatt: The biggest thing I remember is dropping the general purpose conditional suffixes. You could append "eq", "ne", "le", etc to any instruction but aarch64 dropped that.
2019-08-26T00:53:12Z Riastradh: Yes.  There are still some conditional instructions, which are handy; I think ARM observed that it wasn't worth the instruction bits to allow every instruction to be conditional.
2019-08-26T00:53:18Z gwatt: I think loading data from memory locations also changed a little. There's a weird ":lo12" suffix that shows up.
2019-08-26T00:53:31Z Riastradh: The way aarch64 does ADRP is STUPID.
2019-08-26T00:53:35Z Riastradh: we hates it
2019-08-26T00:53:54Z Riastradh: That is, PC-relative addressing.  Not because anything fundamental about PC-relative addressing is wrong --
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2019-08-26T00:54:28Z gwatt: but I liked the conditional suffixes... only having them on the various jumps is what everyone else already does.
2019-08-26T00:54:35Z Riastradh: just because ADRP Xd,#offset stores PC - (PC mod 2^12) + 2^12*offset in Xd,  instead of PC + 2^12*offset.
2019-08-26T00:55:00Z Riastradh: This means you need to know where in a page of memory your ADRP instruction is in order for it to work.
2019-08-26T00:55:37Z Riastradh: So you can't, say, copy a block of code in, say, a compacting GC on granularity finer than pages, without keeping records about all per-instruction relocations.
2019-08-26T00:55:55Z Riastradh: Other than that aarch64 is about the easiest compiler back end for MIT Scheme ever.
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2019-08-26T00:57:00Z Riastradh: (in comparison to vax, m68k, hppa, sparc, mips, alpha, i386, and amd64)
2019-08-26T00:57:06Z Riastradh: gwatt: There are more than just conditional jumps.
2019-08-26T00:57:07Z gwatt: if I recompile my kernel to have a custom page size (doesn't matter why) will that break a program you compiled on your machine and I'm trying t orun on mine.
2019-08-26T00:57:11Z Riastradh: Also conditional moves, conditional compares, &c.
2019-08-26T00:57:28Z gwatt: ok, I'll have to double check all those.
2019-08-26T00:57:30Z Riastradh: gwatt: It's actually 2^12, not relevant to the kernel's VM page size.
2019-08-26T00:57:37Z gwatt: ok
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2019-08-26T01:45:21Z jcowan remembers how the PDP-10 instructon JUMP meant 'never jump'; JUMPA is 'jump always', but nobody used it because JRST 'jump and restore flags' was faster.
2019-08-26T01:45:30Z jcowan: s/remembers/is reminded of
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2019-08-26T02:00:28Z Riastradh: Similar in aarch64: the B.<cond> instruction has various encodings for conditional branches, and their negations.  There's B.AL for `always'; there is a corresponing encoding for `never' but the ARM ARM doesn't explicitly say that's what it means.  However, for unconditional branches it's easier to use B, which has a much wider range.
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2019-08-26T05:28:23Z ACuriousWife: greetings all :-)
2019-08-26T05:32:10Z wasamasa: dto: welcome
2019-08-26T05:32:22Z wasamasa: dto: how come you're messing around with scheme?
2019-08-26T05:32:47Z ACuriousWife: find it useful for statistics
2019-08-26T05:32:56Z ACuriousWife: you know, huge lists of data
2019-08-26T05:33:16Z ACuriousWife: copy and paste, listify them, and process :-)
2019-08-26T05:33:32Z ACuriousWife: and you?
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2019-08-26T05:46:35Z ACuriousWife: hey there lockywolf_
2019-08-26T05:46:47Z ACuriousWife: anyone here using Scheme for android development?
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2019-08-26T05:56:06Z lavaflow: I might be soon, but I've not started on that yet.
2019-08-26T05:56:22Z lavaflow: was thinking about using lambdanative, but I've not really looked into it deeply yet.
2019-08-26T05:57:23Z ACuriousWife: JScheme compiles "out of the box", i've done this in termux, for command-line development on an actual android device
2019-08-26T05:57:39Z ACuriousWife: its a weighty sized APK though
2019-08-26T05:58:10Z ACuriousWife: done any work with lambdanative yet?
2019-08-26T05:58:27Z lavaflow: none.  I've mostly just been using guile and racket
2019-08-26T05:58:45Z ACuriousWife: sure
2019-08-26T05:58:47Z lavaflow: racket/gui is alright.   but racket at all isn't a realistic option for android at this point
2019-08-26T05:59:15Z ACuriousWife: i chose JScheme just because everything's set up for java in android development
2019-08-26T05:59:49Z ACuriousWife: if you're comfortable with java, then JScheme works "out of the box" under java
2019-08-26T06:00:12Z lavaflow: makes sense
2019-08-26T06:00:17Z ACuriousWife: just out of interest, what are you doing with Scheme?
2019-08-26T06:02:11Z lavaflow: right now I'm writing a file management system based on the premise of organizing files by tags, not directories.
2019-08-26T06:02:41Z ACuriousWife: when you think about it, that's what a file system is anyway, just a very specific hierachy of tags
2019-08-26T06:02:48Z lavaflow: yes, precisely
2019-08-26T06:03:05Z ACuriousWife: but good for you, i've used many in the desktop world, they are much better
2019-08-26T06:03:16Z lavaflow: I think the hierarchical model is a subset of generalized tagging
2019-08-26T06:03:25Z ACuriousWife: sure
2019-08-26T06:03:46Z lavaflow: the biggest problem with tagging files is well, tagging them.  as a manual process it's really tedious to tag a lot of files
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2019-08-26T06:04:25Z lavaflow: so my focus has been on creating tag suggestor systems that recommend likely tags based on tags the file already has
2019-08-26T06:04:40Z ACuriousWife: you can just automate it for existing FSOs without any human intervention, and add a tag for "undocumented" ;-)
2019-08-26T06:04:53Z ACuriousWife: excellent
2019-08-26T06:05:17Z ACuriousWife: but ... don't let that become a part of your FMS
2019-08-26T06:05:31Z lavaflow: yeah
2019-08-26T06:06:07Z ACuriousWife: allow it to be separate, something that your FMS system may or may not invoke, preferably allow 3rd party replacements too if you really want to take the big picture in
2019-08-26T06:06:30Z lavaflow: my old version was single threaded and integrated into racket/gui a bit too much.   so I've kept my DB schema and have been writing a multithreaded replacement that's a TCP server implementing the core functionality, and plugins for the rest.
2019-08-26T06:06:52Z ACuriousWife: sounds sane
2019-08-26T06:07:19Z lavaflow: well, technically I've put the DB into WAL mode now too.  but that's not really a big change
2019-08-26T06:08:48Z ACuriousWife: what's your big picture?
2019-08-26T06:09:31Z lavaflow: ultimately I'd like to have clients written to support emacs, various OSes, etc.
2019-08-26T06:10:23Z lavaflow: my motivation is that I think it's a shame hard drives have gotten so big/cheap that the limiting factor to how much data one can keep around is their ability to find it.
2019-08-26T06:10:53Z lavaflow: so I aim to support many millions of files with tens of thousands of seperate tags
2019-08-26T06:11:03Z ACuriousWife: good for you ... a noble cause and a good challenge :-)
2019-08-26T06:11:35Z lavaflow: it sure has been :)
2019-08-26T06:11:37Z ACuriousWife: are you going to include a permissions system?
2019-08-26T06:12:01Z lavaflow: possibly in the future, but the current revision is really designed for a single user
2019-08-26T06:12:08Z ACuriousWife: sure
2019-08-26T06:12:27Z ACuriousWife: there's another aspect you might find worth considering .....
2019-08-26T06:12:55Z ACuriousWife: some tagging systems use "contexts", so that you can look at the same set of data in completely differently tagged ways
2019-08-26T06:13:27Z lavaflow: technically my system only stores full filenames, so access to those files could be limited to different users the old fashioned way.
2019-08-26T06:13:40Z ACuriousWife: so that if you're allowing hierarchical tags and links ... you can support completely distinct sets of each
2019-08-26T06:14:05Z lavaflow: so far I've not delved into hierarchical tags, right now I just have a flat namespace for tags.
2019-08-26T06:14:22Z lavaflow: I've been toying with the idea of automatic detection of tag cliches or something like that
2019-08-26T06:14:27Z ACuriousWife: even a flat namespace can support this
2019-08-26T06:14:58Z ACuriousWife: tags are good for grouping like things
2019-08-26T06:15:29Z lavaflow: definitely
2019-08-26T06:15:44Z ACuriousWife: you might also want to create a "link" object to be able to link dissimilar things together, so you can effectively "surf" your system from object to object
2019-08-26T06:16:49Z lavaflow: I have a few systems that I think could be used to create interesting browsing experiences.
2019-08-26T06:17:19Z ACuriousWife: excellent ... sounds like i'm preaching to the converted :-)
2019-08-26T06:17:21Z lavaflow: one of my supported queries is basically "return anything that includes one or more of these tags, ordered by which contains the most"
2019-08-26T06:17:59Z lavaflow: so if I take the tags the current file has, and feed that into the "prefered tags" query, I get back a list of files similar to the current one, ordered by simularity
2019-08-26T06:18:25Z ACuriousWife: could be very useful
2019-08-26T06:18:30Z lavaflow: now, just calling that repeatedly can get you stuck in a short cycle where two files similar to each other point to each other
2019-08-26T06:18:41Z ACuriousWife: are you investigating any other "unstructured databases"?
2019-08-26T06:19:16Z lavaflow: I thought about it a bit, but when I slapped together a prototype in sqlite it was performant enough and I think sql gives me more "future proof" flexibility
2019-08-26T06:19:29Z ACuriousWife: :-)
2019-08-26T06:19:34Z ACuriousWife: more power to you
2019-08-26T06:20:14Z ACuriousWife: they might still be usefull to look over, just for ideas on services/functionalities to provide
2019-08-26T06:20:35Z lavaflow: I'm far from a sql wizard, but the db schema is pretty simple.    in principle it's one table to describe the tags, one table to describe the files, and a third table that has tag_id and file_id pairs
2019-08-26T06:20:43Z lavaflow: yeah, definitely
2019-08-26T06:21:18Z lavaflow: I've not surveyed them recently, I made the call to go with sql a year or two ago.  I should give other DBs another look to see what I can learn.
2019-08-26T06:22:27Z ACuriousWife: just check them out every couple of years in case there are any new good ideas to "steal"
2019-08-26T06:24:41Z lavaflow: one feature I wish I had was being able to rapidly calculate the cardinality of the intersection of two tags
2019-08-26T06:25:24Z lavaflow: right now, doing that requires a DB join.   it takes tens of ms typically, depending on the size of the two tags, but I really wish I could get it to a fraction of that so I could do it *a lot*
2019-08-26T06:25:47Z lavaflow: because my naive bayes tag suggestor currently likes that operation, to calculate P(A|B), etc values
2019-08-26T06:26:03Z ACuriousWife: that's a good challenge that one
2019-08-26T06:26:19Z ACuriousWife: i don't know the answer, but i'll think about it
2019-08-26T06:26:32Z lavaflow: yeah.   particularly since for N tags, there are N^2 intersections to wonder about
2019-08-26T06:27:17Z lavaflow: my 'solution' so far is kind of hacky but seems to work.   I calculate the cardinalities lazily, only when needed, since most aren't needed (that makes some assumptions about usage patterns)
2019-08-26T06:27:50Z lavaflow: and each time the user adds or subtracts a tag from a file, the other tags already on that file are noted and the apporpriate cardinalities in the cache are incremented or decremented
2019-08-26T06:28:46Z lavaflow: it took me more time than I care to admit to work the bugs out of that cache mess, and now I'm reimplementing the whole thing as a plugin under my new implementation.
2019-08-26T06:30:23Z ACuriousWife: i don't know how SQLite works under the hood, have you ever tried using views?
2019-08-26T06:31:45Z lavaflow: as far as I know, the caching on views in sqlite is insufficient (I'm not sure there is any?)
2019-08-26T06:31:55Z ACuriousWife: allright, forget that
2019-08-26T06:32:18Z lavaflow: I could be wrong about that, but that's my impression.   I've not used views before in sqlite though
2019-08-26T06:33:20Z ACuriousWife: and i'm assuming you're using some kind of primary keys on each table of your join, right?
2019-08-26T06:35:52Z lavaflow: yeah, it's all tag_id and file_id
2019-08-26T06:36:46Z lavaflow: (each is the primary key of their respective tables, but the tag_id/file_id pair table has (file_id,tag_id) as a compound primary key
2019-08-26T06:36:56Z lavaflow: with an index on that
2019-08-26T06:36:58Z ACuriousWife: good, you got it
2019-08-26T06:39:10Z ACuriousWife: can i look at the SQL for that search?
2019-08-26T06:41:55Z lavaflow: sure: https://gist.github.com/jgreco/09d1d4899178b2db484a667524936ad0
2019-08-26T06:42:18Z ACuriousWife: cool
2019-08-26T06:42:28Z lavaflow: that's doing something slightly different than what I described, in that it calculates the intersection cardinalities for an entire tag, vs all of the others
2019-08-26T06:42:44Z lavaflow: instead of a single tag_id,tag_id pair
2019-08-26T06:44:10Z ACuriousWife: ahhh ... this wasn't quite what i understood at first
2019-08-26T06:45:15Z ACuriousWife: now i'm assuming you've got (something like) a tags table, an objects file, a tags-objects table ... what's this cardinatlities table?
2019-08-26T06:45:28Z lavaflow: the original version did the intersection cardinality between two tags, but it was getting called thousands of times in a row by my bayes suggestor
2019-08-26T06:46:26Z lavaflow: the cardinalities table is basically just a cache.  for a given tag a and tag b, it stores the size of a intersected with b
2019-08-26T06:47:08Z ACuriousWife: (only 2-tag cardinalities?)
2019-08-26T06:47:24Z lavaflow: yes, only two
2019-08-26T06:48:16Z lavaflow: basically so that given the size of tag A, the size of tag B, I can calculate P(A|B) or P(B|A)
2019-08-26T06:48:44Z lavaflow: (the cardinality of the intersection gives me the overlap between the two needed to calculate that)
2019-08-26T06:49:00Z ACuriousWife: sure, i can see now why its as involved as it is
2019-08-26T06:53:28Z lavaflow: hmmm, I just noticed that part of that isn't actually using the index.. "FROM FileTags WHERE tag_id=$1"
2019-08-26T06:54:00Z lavaflow: the index is on file_id,tag_id and in sqlite that means the index will be effective for file_id,tag_id or just file_id, but not for tag_id.
2019-08-26T06:54:41Z lavaflow: maybe I can add a second index without killing my write perf... another item for the todo list.
2019-08-26T06:57:34Z ACuriousWife: the multi-headed Todo Monster!
2019-08-26T06:59:06Z ACuriousWife: so what kind of searches do you want to support from the user's side of the fence?
2019-08-26T06:59:43Z lavaflow: something like (sort-by-topic (tags +jpg +cats -dogs))
2019-08-26T06:59:58Z lavaflow: so all jpg files that have cats in them, but none that also have dogs
2019-08-26T07:00:25Z lavaflow: and then sort-by-topic is a fun little search I threw together that tries to order files in such a way that the subject matter flows together
2019-08-26T07:00:31Z ACuriousWife: sure
2019-08-26T07:00:53Z lavaflow: doing that perfectly is the TSP, but using a greedy search approximation works well from the users perspective and is reasonably fast
2019-08-26T07:02:19Z lavaflow: basically given a list of files and their corresponding sets of tags, use the levenshtein edit distance between their tag sets as the topic distance between files
2019-08-26T07:02:30Z lavaflow: then find the shortest route between all the files.
2019-08-26T07:02:45Z lavaflow: well, a short route, not the shortest.   traveling salesman and all..
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2019-08-26T07:03:52Z ACuriousWife: sure
2019-08-26T07:05:26Z lavaflow: another form of query I support is something like (tags +jpg dogs cats birds)   where all returned files must have the 'jpg' tag, and having the other tags is considered a bonus, bringing them to the top of the list according to how many they have
2019-08-26T07:06:07Z lavaflow: I find this is useful when quering a set of files you know was poorly tagged
2019-08-26T07:06:59Z lavaflow: e.g. "I'm looking for that picture of a bird riding on a cat looking at a dog, but I probably forgot to tag one of those animals and I'm not sure which."
2019-08-26T07:07:27Z ACuriousWife: you got my mind whirring now LOL
2019-08-26T07:07:48Z ACuriousWife: i can't help but want to optimise this ... hopeless geek or what?
2019-08-26T07:08:24Z lavaflow: I think there is a lot of potential in this problem space for some really creative and innovative solutions
2019-08-26T07:08:36Z ACuriousWife: i've got an idea ...
2019-08-26T07:08:42Z lavaflow: I've barely touched any ML stuff, this bayes classifier is late 90s tech
2019-08-26T07:09:10Z lavaflow: with a GPU and some modern ML stuff, who knows what might be possible.   I'd like to keep the core functionality performant on budget CPU hardware though.
2019-08-26T07:09:28Z ACuriousWife: what about you add a field to your search that literally adds a count of the tags for each record, then just a simple order by that count?
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2019-08-26T07:10:02Z lavaflow: oh yes, I've actually got that
2019-08-26T07:10:11Z ACuriousWife: allright ... too obvious LOL
2019-08-26T07:10:20Z lavaflow: for my tags I have a count of the total number for each tag, and for the files I've got a count of the total number of tags for each
2019-08-26T07:10:46Z lavaflow: keeping those up to date is a little bit of a chore.  I should probably be using sql triggers for them or something, but right now I'm not
2019-08-26T07:11:14Z ACuriousWife: honestly, i think triggers is definitely the way to go
2019-08-26T07:11:37Z ACuriousWife: it will be less of an headache as you improve the system
2019-08-26T07:13:04Z lavaflow: yeah, I should prioritize that
2019-08-26T07:13:13Z lavaflow: here is my full schema right now btw: https://gist.github.com/jgreco/abb3bc60f63f27f048e2d4dab0612b94
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2019-08-26T07:13:41Z lavaflow: there is some cruft in there.   sqlite's unique approach to typing makes all that VARCHAR type nonsense pointless.
2019-08-26T07:14:27Z lavaflow: and also the 'probability' column in FileTags is basically just premature future-proofing.
2019-08-26T07:15:50Z ACuriousWife: that's cool, i'm no SQL guru either, just the basics enough to get the job done
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2019-08-26T07:16:16Z lavaflow: yeah, this project has definitely pushed me to learn more
2019-08-26T07:16:35Z lavaflow: I've always taken a "learn it as I need it" approach to sql
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2019-08-26T07:18:35Z ACuriousWife: if SQL is going to be part of your life, there are a few good SQL challenge sites out there, a mini problem each day, can help you develop your SQL muscles
2019-08-26T07:18:49Z lavaflow: good idea
2019-08-26T07:20:02Z ACuriousWife: the RBAR series ("row by agonising row") are quite through provoking
2019-08-26T07:20:26Z ACuriousWife: they are specifically for T-SQL, but they have applications accross the board
2019-08-26T07:20:41Z lavaflow: heh, I like the name
2019-08-26T07:22:05Z ACuriousWife: but there are plenty out there, you'll find the right one for you, and i'm guessing there are better ones for SQLite
2019-08-26T07:23:49Z lavaflow: I must say I'm really enamoured with sqlite
2019-08-26T07:24:52Z lavaflow: before I switched to sqlite, I was just (write ...)'ing a bunch of s-expressions to a file to persist them.  which worked fine until one day it all crashed in in the middle of a write and left the tag DB for my entire NAS corrupted
2019-08-26T07:25:07Z ACuriousWife: i'm aiming at android myself, so i should probably concentrate more on SQLite
2019-08-26T07:25:14Z lavaflow: the integrity guarantees that sqlite provides give me a lot of peace of mind
2019-08-26T07:25:22Z ACuriousWife: oooooo ... nasty
2019-08-26T07:25:52Z lavaflow: yeah, thankfully I had a recent backup, but after that happened I basically stopped everything and moved it all to sqlite.
2019-08-26T07:26:17Z ACuriousWife: you cool with transactions too?
2019-08-26T07:27:07Z lavaflow: There are a few places I'll have to use them in the core functionality I think
2019-08-26T07:27:41Z lavaflow: I avoided using them in the past because the whole thing was single threaded anyway, but now that I've got async job queues going on I'll need to use them for some operations.
2019-08-26T07:28:08Z ACuriousWife: food for thought
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2019-08-26T07:29:52Z lavaflow: here is one place I found where a transaction will definitely be needed: https://gist.github.com/jgreco/7fa7f832e70e8d2e3c09170915bbb207
2019-08-26T07:30:05Z lavaflow: I've not gotten around to fixing that one yet
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2019-08-26T09:04:37Z mdhughes: c
2019-08-26T09:04:55Z mdhughes: -1d
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2019-08-26T10:10:03Z amz3: \o/
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2019-08-26T15:03:34Z dto: hi wasamasa how are you? yes i've become a budding vaporwave artist and i'm beginning to prorgam some lisp things related to making vaporwave
2019-08-26T15:08:11Z dto: the first snippets are elisp https://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el/blob/master/mosaic.el and snd-scheme https://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el/blob/master/mosaic.scm
2019-08-26T15:13:04Z amz3: what is varwave?
2019-08-26T15:23:17Z dto: amz3: vaporwave is a 21st century music technique/genre that grew out of chopped-and-screwed music, plunderphonics, etc
2019-08-26T15:24:44Z dto: chopped-and-screwed = chopping (skipping, looping, tempo change, rearranging on time axis) + screwing (speeding up, slowing down, pitch shifting, autotuning,
2019-08-26T15:25:11Z dto: plunderphonics means it's made at least in part from rearranged versions of other peoples records all chopped up
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2019-08-26T15:26:37Z dto: amz3: here is a youtube video from an in-my-opinion pretty good vaporwave album from an artist i like. https://youtu.be/DAPzNsmH2BU?t=1141  it's cued to start at 19 minutes , where i think there is a group of a couple cool songs
2019-08-26T15:27:09Z dto: anyway while i am loving Mixxx and Audacity for chop'n'screw tasks, i think using my lisp skills and getting jiggy with Scheme might produce some really cool vaporwave :)
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2019-08-26T15:36:09Z dto: amz3: it is also a good example of plunderphonics because it samples Thriller a few minutes after the point i linked.
2019-08-26T15:36:28Z dto: (Michael Jackson having been a part of the original Plunderphonics controversy
2019-08-26T15:37:28Z dto: other samples in there include Yazoo
2019-08-26T15:37:57Z amz3: cool :)
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2019-08-26T15:46:04Z pjb: vaporware is a product (software or hardware) that is hiped but not developped yet.
2019-08-26T15:46:31Z pjb: nothing to do with music, unless you're putting up an ad for a CD, and have nothing to sell.
2019-08-26T15:48:58Z mdhughes: http://www.vaporizergalaxy.com or https://marijuanavaporizer.com
2019-08-26T15:49:15Z rain1: bruh
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2019-08-26T15:58:56Z dto: wat
2019-08-26T15:59:39Z dto: hey so i'm liking scheme. this is my deepest dive yet, after a few previous dalliances
2019-08-26T16:01:03Z rain1: cool i like scheme too
2019-08-26T16:03:09Z dto: i'm a little worried that i might get confused about macros working differently,
2019-08-26T16:03:18Z dto: but i tend to write relatively simple macros these days
2019-08-26T16:03:49Z rain1: if you stay simple there will be no trouble
2019-08-26T16:04:38Z dto: that is a good rule in CL too :)
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2019-08-26T17:17:55Z wasamasa: dto: fun, didn't expect that
2019-08-26T17:18:19Z wasamasa: dto: I have a friend over here who toys with the idea of producing vaporwave and learning scheme
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2019-08-26T18:03:46Z pjb: wasamasa: producing vaporware is the work of marketting people. Not of programmers.
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2019-08-26T18:53:06Z gwatt: pjb: vaporwaRe and vaporwaVe are different things
2019-08-26T18:54:00Z amz3`: +1
2019-08-26T18:54:28Z amz3`: vapoware is thing like i do ;)
2019-08-26T18:54:35Z amz3`: vapoware is things like i do ;)
2019-08-26T18:56:49Z jcowan: Oh, I don't know.  I frequently publish draft SRFIs long before I have written an implementation, as it's a lot easier to change a spec than a spec+code.
2019-08-26T18:56:56Z jcowan: So those SRFIs are vaporware.
2019-08-26T18:57:36Z jcowan: SRFI 170 will be vaporware for quite some time.
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2019-08-26T19:04:43Z pjb: gwatt: right :-)
2019-08-26T19:06:39Z mdhughes: More things I'd like Scheme to have batteries included: an INI file reader, or equivalent like Java's .properties files.
2019-08-26T19:07:16Z mdhughes: My own nerdy stuff I can expose JSON, that's fine, but that's not great for Humans.
2019-08-26T19:07:16Z wasamasa: I've used read-list in CHICKEN for that kind of thing
2019-08-26T19:07:26Z wasamasa: it reads in as many s-expressions as it can from a file
2019-08-26T19:07:41Z mdhughes: Same problem as JSON, tho. Can't give that to a person.
2019-08-26T19:09:18Z mdhughes: Chicken does have a couple CSV readers, which would let Humans work with spreadsheets if they're careful.
2019-08-26T19:10:25Z wasamasa: IIRC python has something not quite ini-like, that might be worth porting
2019-08-26T19:10:47Z wasamasa: https://docs.python.org/3/library/configparser.html
2019-08-26T19:11:16Z pjb: I hate the .ini file format.
2019-08-26T19:11:52Z wasamasa: or if you want something newer, https://github.com/toml-lang/toml
2019-08-26T19:12:05Z pjb: On the other hand, Xen used a scheme sexp file format for its configuration. It was great.  You could generate virtual machine with scheme or lisp scripts very nicely.
2019-08-26T19:12:17Z pjb: Now of course, they added a XML layer, beurk!
2019-08-26T19:12:30Z wasamasa: personally, if someone is good enough to get my scheme code running, they might just as well figure out sexp syntax
2019-08-26T19:12:39Z pjb: Exactly.
2019-08-26T19:13:48Z pjb: Now, there's one case where I used a configuration file format simplier than sexps, namely a file containing an alternance of symbols and string values (still lisp syntax), is when I needed to process those configuration file from bash scripts…  But even that, since I have sexp-reading bash libraries…
2019-08-26T19:13:50Z jcowan: An ini reader is on the roadmap for R7RS-large, which means it'll be a SRFI.
2019-08-26T19:14:05Z jcowan: (and writer)
2019-08-26T19:14:12Z mdhughes: INI is a Windowsism, but it has some nice concepts, like default groups.
2019-08-26T19:14:19Z jcowan: As currently designed, it preserves order and doesn't merge keys or sections.
2019-08-26T19:14:23Z mdhughes: jcowan: That's excellent news.
2019-08-26T19:14:28Z pjb: On the other hand, libraries of such file format modules can be useful to process and lispify foreign systems.
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2019-08-26T19:14:38Z jcowan: Just so.
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2019-08-26T19:14:51Z jcowan: I'm using an alist mapping section names to alists which map keys to values.
2019-08-26T19:17:26Z mdhughes: So I'm just gonna punt on configuration until that's around. Yay, less commitment!
2019-08-26T19:17:56Z wasamasa: the cool thing about just using a list of sexps is that type conversion is done for you without any guessing
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2019-08-26T19:19:36Z jcowan: Yes.  My CSV module has a zero-hack option, which is that if a value being written looks like a number and begins with a 0 digit, it's output not as 0005 but as ="0005" so that Excel will handle it as a string.
2019-08-26T19:21:03Z wasamasa: lol
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2019-08-26T19:21:26Z jcowan: The trouble with configparser is that it throws away information in the file for the sake of being able to use Python dicts.
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2019-08-26T19:37:36Z dto: wasamasa: that's cool that's an interesting coincidence
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2019-08-26T20:56:31Z jcowan: pjb: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/index.html is returning an empty result.
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2019-08-26T21:24:04Z pjb: jcowan: that's unfortunate…
2019-08-26T21:24:10Z pjb: Thanks for reporting it.
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2019-08-26T21:39:34Z pjb: jcowan: in the meantime, you can get it from the git repositories: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/small-cl-pgms
2019-08-26T21:40:06Z jcowan: Thanks.
2019-08-26T21:52:17Z ecraven: ;)
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2019-08-27T00:16:52Z pjb: jcowan: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/index.html is restored.  Thanks again for the bug report!
2019-08-27T00:17:38Z pjb: The git.gitorious.org url is outdated, substitute gitlab.com instead ;-)  I'll update it later.
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2019-08-27T14:41:37Z erkin: Is there any book along the lines of 'Real-World Scheme' or 'Scheme Cookbook'
2019-08-27T14:41:56Z erkin: Y'know, the kind of technical book that contains recipes for industrial usage.
2019-08-27T14:43:19Z mario-goulart: I guess that'd be quite implementation-dependent.
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2019-08-27T14:46:11Z gwatt: erkin: maybe "How to Design Programs"
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2019-08-27T14:51:00Z erkin: Isn't that for total beginners?
2019-08-27T14:52:03Z gwatt: You could start halfway through
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2019-08-27T17:18:10Z wasamasa: erkin: there is such a thing for writing web applications in racket
2019-08-27T17:18:18Z wasamasa: erkin: otherwise you'll have to do with blog posts
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2019-08-27T18:00:29Z mdhughes: You could approach it like old BASIC books did: Pick an implementation and provide compatibility/porting notes in the back.
2019-08-27T18:01:12Z mdhughes: Most Schemes are pretty close to portable except the import/setup prelude, and defining some utility functions.
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2019-08-27T18:15:26Z Riastradh: `The back' might be bigger than the rest of the book combined...
2019-08-27T18:24:19Z mdhughes: No. When I ported my stuff from Chez to Chicken, I had only a few code changes, mostly my hash-table accessors and records. When I did it to Racket, I had more changes but it still was less than a day's work.
2019-08-27T18:26:53Z mdhughes: My old MIT Scheme code mostly used MIT-only graphics libraries, I largely used it for plotting, so I couldn't port that at the time. Now I could probably move it to a portable layer over SDL or Racket's GUI.
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2019-08-27T20:11:14Z jcowan: Things are certainly getting better, and as R7RS-large progresses, hopefully they'lll get better still.
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2019-08-27T20:59:28Z aeth: heh
2019-08-27T21:01:28Z aeth: It's a funny issue of perspective, really. For Scheme users and I guess r7rs participants, "better" is more portability. For Scheme implementors, "better" is basically sort of the opposite... adding features over other implementations while not having that much "common Scheme" to have to implement.
2019-08-27T21:01:57Z aeth: I sure hope I can find the time to get back to my r7rs implementation before r7rs-large is out.
2019-08-27T21:04:59Z rain1: the only difference between schemes should be the list of libraries available
2019-08-27T21:05:10Z rain1: scheme is a flexible and hackable enough language for that to work
2019-08-27T21:09:36Z aeth: Yes, but... if those libraries or implementation extensions contain new data structures (and for r5rs, that includes basic things like hash tables), then you basically fundamentally change your program around them unless there are portability libraries.
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2019-08-27T21:25:59Z rain1: i dont know what you mean
2019-08-27T21:26:37Z Riastradh: Hash tables are pretty complicated.
2019-08-27T21:27:58Z aeth: rain1: hash tables change the big-O characteristics, so you're probably going to have different programs if you use them vs. if you don't... and you can't really efficiently implement them from the primitives that r5rs gives you afaik.
2019-08-27T21:28:07Z aeth: So they're a good example of necessary unportability.
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2019-08-27T21:34:13Z Riastradh: All you really need is an (object-address <obj>) procedure and an (object-address-epoch) procedure.
2019-08-27T21:34:29Z Riastradh: That is, if you want what I assume you're asking for; if you just want string keys then you've got everything you need already.
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2019-08-27T21:36:21Z aeth: string keys are so unlispy, although I guess they have their uses in some things, like perhaps web related things if e.g. the key is a username or something
2019-08-27T21:36:59Z Riastradh: Is ideological commitment to lispiness more important than solving problems in the real world?
2019-08-27T21:37:08Z aeth: In some languages, you use strings all over the place, including instead of using enums... in Lisps you usually use symbols (or even keywords, depending on the dialect)
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2019-08-27T22:41:47Z mdhughes: Hash tables are a thing you can make in an afternoon if you have vectors. They were CS101.
2019-08-27T22:42:36Z mdhughes: Efficient hashing is harder, but not much; and a lot of languages have hashing from the start.
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2019-08-27T22:43:42Z jcowan: R7RS hashing is nicely layered: if you have R6RS hashing it will use that, if not it will use SRFI 69 if you have that, if not it has its own SRFI 69 clone.  Will Clinger FTW.
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2019-08-27T23:29:53Z aeth: mdhughes: technically I don't think r5rs has vectors, either, just r7rs and probably r6rs
2019-08-27T23:30:03Z aeth: of course virtually everyone will have that SRFI in an r5rs
2019-08-27T23:31:43Z mdhughes: Vectors are in R5RS.
2019-08-27T23:32:01Z mdhughes: 6.3.6
2019-08-27T23:32:38Z mdhughes: And R4RS http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r4rs_8.html#SEC58
2019-08-27T23:32:41Z aeth: ah
2019-08-27T23:32:49Z aeth: nevermind, then
2019-08-27T23:33:22Z aeth: I guess the SRFI just makes them much easier to work with
2019-08-27T23:33:39Z mdhughes: Yeah, 133 adds a ton of useful stuff.
2019-08-27T23:37:57Z mdhughes: Even if you didn't have vectors, you could get to a hash-table with a tree and it wouldn't be too much slower.
2019-08-27T23:38:28Z aeth: that's a very C way to deal with programming, though
2019-08-27T23:38:35Z aeth: everything basic from scratch
2019-08-27T23:39:09Z mdhughes: C? Luxury! I grew up with BASIC and 6502 ASM. Making data structures was hard.
2019-08-27T23:39:32Z aeth: Well, C isn't particularly good here because it's very fast, but not particularly safe. A bit of a luxury compared to asm even when you care about those characteristics, though
2019-08-27T23:39:33Z mdhughes: https://youtu.be/ue7wM0QC5LE
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2019-08-28T00:45:09Z jcowan: What R5RS doesn't have is user-defined types, so while you can use vectors as hash tables, you can't tell them apart from any other vectors.
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2019-08-28T00:49:50Z mdhughes: Sure, you have to wrap it in a closure-object or just say "this is a hash-table".
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2019-08-28T00:51:47Z mdhughes: records predated the actual SRFI by quite a while, tho.
2019-08-28T00:56:41Z mdhughes: I only remember I was using my hand-rolled data structures from college long after they got added officially.
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2019-08-28T07:04:51Z rain1: aeth they can be provided as a library
2019-08-28T07:05:56Z rain1: a library can be implemented in the language or as part of the implementation
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2019-08-28T08:51:46Z aeth: rain1: jcowan raised the real problem, which is distinguishing it from a vector
2019-08-28T08:51:58Z aeth: (not surprising that jcowan knows the flaws of r5rs better than me)
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2019-08-28T10:56:49Z rain1: i dont think you're understanding what im saying
2019-08-28T10:58:27Z rain1: there isn't a problem, adding a new disjoint type to the language is something importing a library has the capability of doing
2019-08-28T11:00:21Z mdhughes: It does require some jiggery-pokery if you don't have the language level support. Redefining vector? like SRFI-9 does is ridiculous.
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2019-08-28T12:02:53Z jcowan: Exactly.  I think about the first thing WG1 decided was that we would have define-record-type in R7RS-small (modules were a mandate of the Steering Committee)
2019-08-28T12:03:39Z jcowan: "There remained the alternatives of whiskey and jiggery-pokery [once the supernatural has been excluded as an explanation]."
2019-08-28T12:04:18Z jcowan: Though it wasn't a foregone conclusion that we would adopt SRFI 9.  The R5RS version is easier to write and read, but not backward compatible enough.
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2019-08-28T12:14:36Z jcowan: (Larceny does have a hairy macro that supports both syntaxes.)
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2019-08-29T04:52:17Z lavaflow: I'm thinking about writing a scripting DSL in my application.  does anybody have ideas for syntactic sugar macros to make installing pre and post hooks on procedures minimally obtrusive?
2019-08-29T04:53:07Z lavaflow: I'm thinking maybe something like (define/with-hooks (foo ...) ...) and then (prehook foo (my-hook ...) ... )
2019-08-29T04:55:19Z lockywolf: how to silence "re-importing already imported identifier" in chicken?
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2019-08-29T06:38:36Z rain1: how about (redefine (foo x y z) (before bit) (foo x y z) (after bit))
2019-08-29T06:38:49Z rain1: redefine is a version of define that doesn't bring the name into scope for the body
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2019-08-29T09:48:24Z amz3: hello #scheme
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2019-08-29T09:57:40Z lockywolf_: hello
2019-08-29T09:57:54Z lockywolf_: wanna join geiser development?
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2019-08-29T12:24:24Z rain1: i don't know emacs lisp
2019-08-29T12:26:41Z TCZ: i dont know you
2019-08-29T12:29:30Z jcowan: lavaflow: See SRFI 173.  In general, depending on the order in which hook procedures work is a mistake.
2019-08-29T12:29:48Z jcowan: If you allow them to be functionally dependent, things get *very* complicated fast.
2019-08-29T12:30:03Z jcowan: (not meaning prehooks and posthooks, that makes sense)
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2019-08-29T12:31:09Z rain1: TCZ: comments like this get you /ignored
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2019-08-29T14:26:52Z lavaflow: jcowan: perfect, thank you!
2019-08-29T14:27:31Z lavaflow: I was thinking about running the hooks in parallel to each other (well, probably just using racket's green threads, not strictly in parallel)
2019-08-29T14:27:49Z lavaflow: I'm not sure if I'll do that though.  I'll have to play with it
2019-08-29T14:28:46Z lavaflow: maybe I'll just say that's a possible future revision, so that people avoid writing code that might be broken by it and consequently might be broken by undeterministic ordering
2019-08-29T14:30:52Z lavaflow: wait is this SRFI really from two weeks ago?  that's a bit uncanny.
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2019-08-29T14:40:26Z amz3: uncanny?
2019-08-29T14:40:56Z amz3: lavaflow: the idea is old and the implementation straightfoward.
2019-08-29T14:41:22Z lavaflow: oh I know the idea is old, I got it from emacs
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2019-08-29T15:19:23Z jcowan: "It steam-engines when it comes steam-engine time."
2019-08-29T15:22:18Z dto: good morning hows it going schemers?
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2019-08-29T15:22:59Z dto: now that i'm more or less comfortable in s7 (snd-scheme) i'm finally realizing how quite nice it is on the other side of the fence (i've always been on the CL/elisp side of things, )
2019-08-29T15:25:57Z dto: i'm still learning the ins and outs but I quite like how it feels.
2019-08-29T15:26:30Z dto: anyone know if Fluxus Scheme is still active? i've had it way in the back of my mind since i saw it, might be time to investigate further :)  but in the meantime I'm working on SchemeMosaic
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2019-08-29T15:36:47Z amz3: nice!
2019-08-29T15:37:56Z mdhughes: Every attempt I've made to use CLISP—"CL", but really it was always CLISP and it's more accurate to how they shout all the time—I just couldn't deal with the shouting, the ugly terse words (nevermind that I use UNIX all day and type ls, rm…), the multiple namespaces.
2019-08-29T15:41:01Z pjb: mdhughes: CL is a meta programming programmin language. So if there's something that you don't like, you can just modify it.  For example, (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :upcase *print-case* :downcase) let you enter uppercase symbols by typing lower case, and will print uppercase symbols as lower case.
2019-08-29T15:41:22Z pjb: mdhughes: instead of writing CAR, you can write first.
2019-08-29T15:41:25Z pjb: etc.
2019-08-29T15:41:31Z mdhughes: And that won't help me with the docs or other users, who all SHOUT.
2019-08-29T15:42:01Z mdhughes: We have first, etc. in Scheme, too.
2019-08-29T15:42:17Z pjb: You're wrong.  Unfortunately almost everybody thinks like you that uppercase is shouting. You are wrong. They are wrong. Nonetheless, this means that you don'tfind any doc or user who write lisp code in uppercase.
2019-08-29T15:42:48Z mdhughes: You say "you are wrong" a lot for someone who doesn't realize I'm right.
2019-08-29T15:45:16Z pjb: Uppercase doesn't denote shouting.  It denodes code.  It let's code keyword stand out on monochromatic line printer print-outs (and punched card).
2019-08-29T15:45:23Z jcowan: Not really.  Since he doesn't realize you're right, of course he says you're wrong.  The alternative would be to remain silent, which is very difficult for apes who talk instead of grooming each other.
2019-08-29T15:46:20Z mdhughes: It's hilarious in Land of Lisp when he writes all his code nicely lowercased like someone not using a pre-lowercase-mod Apple ][ or TRS-80, but then the output is SHOUTED
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2019-08-29T15:47:49Z mario-goulart: pjb: according to RFC 1855, uppercase means shouting.
2019-08-29T15:48:34Z mdhughes: But the serious consequence of that is symbols aren't case-sensitive. I like being able to use case to distinguish constants, globals, locals.
2019-08-29T15:48:57Z mdhughes: +1 for mario-goulart
2019-08-29T15:49:17Z mario-goulart: mdhughes: there's a convetion for that.  *mutable-global* +constant-global+
2019-08-29T15:49:22Z mario-goulart: convention, even.
2019-08-29T15:49:45Z mdhughes: *key* is a dynamic var, supposedly, not a global per se.
2019-08-29T15:50:19Z jcowan: Well, CL doesn't have global lexical variables.  You can rig them, but it's inadvisable unless you have a *really* compelling reason why you have rebind a global name lexically.
2019-08-29T15:50:21Z mdhughes: And I can't read those, my visual cortex is used to math symbols meaning math operations.
2019-08-29T15:50:58Z jcowan thinks the whole idea of being allowed to rebind variables in a local lexical scope was probably a mistake.
2019-08-29T15:51:19Z mario-goulart: shadowing?
2019-08-29T15:52:02Z mario-goulart: I guess I just invented this word.
2019-08-29T15:52:12Z mdhughes: The nesting we'd need with let instead of set! would be excessive
2019-08-29T15:52:43Z mdhughes: shadowing's an existing term for that, like in C functions where you don't actually rebind.
2019-08-29T15:53:17Z mario-goulart: Ok. For a moment I thought that word didn't exist.
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2019-08-29T15:53:35Z pjb: mario-goulart: coding is not irc.
2019-08-29T15:54:04Z mario-goulart: Still text read by humans.
2019-08-29T15:54:49Z pjb: On those fragile millenials don't support uppercase.  In the old days, we only had uppercase!
2019-08-29T15:54:52Z mario-goulart: ... "only incidentally for machines to execute."
2019-08-29T15:55:04Z pjb: +ly
2019-08-29T16:05:03Z mdhughes: Millennials, what? I make those Apple ][ and TRS-80 references because that's what I used as a kid.
2019-08-29T16:05:40Z mdhughes: Then I got an Atari 800, and really nothing's been as good since.
2019-08-29T16:09:31Z pjb: You should be thankful that the LoL author let you recognize code in output without you having to pay for a color print!
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2019-08-29T16:39:33Z dto: n00b question: how is the end-of-line character usually expressed?
2019-08-29T16:40:14Z dto: as in, #\_   where _ is the thing to put for newline
2019-08-29T16:40:17Z mdhughes: "\n" or #\newline
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2019-08-29T17:00:33Z ecraven: #\return or #\newline, depending on OS and conventions
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2019-08-29T17:04:38Z dto: thank you folks :)
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2019-08-29T17:08:11Z gwatt: sometimes you can follow "#\" with a literal line-feed and that also works
2019-08-29T17:11:26Z gwatt: (not suggesting you do that, merely mentioning it as a curiosity)
2019-08-29T17:22:02Z pjb: ecraven: #\newline ALWAYS!  It's independent of OS, platform and conventions.  #\newline will always represent the end-of-line!
2019-08-29T17:22:58Z pjb: ecraven: #\newline will be transformed into #\return and/or #\linefeed depending on the :external-format.
2019-08-29T17:23:33Z pjb: dto: otherwise, the newline character is usually expressed as itself: "foo
2019-08-29T17:23:34Z pjb: bar"
2019-08-29T17:23:39Z pjb: is a string containing a newline.
2019-08-29T17:28:15Z gwatt: pjb: why do you alwasy give CL specific tips in the #scheme channel?
2019-08-29T17:30:41Z pjb: Well, previous it was somebody else who said something about clisp and CL.  And here, I didn't notice it was in #scheme. I don't remember having seen #\newline anywere in r5rs…
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2019-08-29T18:33:54Z Riastradh: pjb: It's hard to believe that it's not wilful ignorance of where you are.  Cut it out and take the confusing Common Lisp tips elsewhere.
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2019-08-29T19:15:18Z jcowan: pjb: #\newline has been part of Scheme since at least R4RS.  However, \n in strings wasn't introduced until R6RS.
2019-08-29T19:26:00Z amz3: very confusing \n
2019-08-29T19:26:02Z amz3: is
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2019-08-29T19:38:56Z ecraven: didn't many implementations support it way before that?
2019-08-29T19:47:13Z mdhughes: R7RS has a bunch more abbreviations.
2019-08-29T19:47:39Z mdhughes: R5 only specifies newline and space.
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2019-08-29T19:51:22Z mdhughes: MIT Scheme always(?) did \n and a bunch of character types.
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2019-08-29T19:55:08Z mdhughes: What does Scheme do with #\newline on Windows? Is output always text-mode if you aren't writing a binary file?
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2019-08-29T20:07:39Z jcowan: It varies.  The main principle is that when you call read-char you should always get just one #\newline character, even on Windows, and that when you have a literal string with a line break in it, you likewise have just one character there, a #\newline.
2019-08-29T20:09:22Z jcowan: CL guarantees this behavior with textual files, and so do R[67]RS.
2019-08-29T20:15:24Z dto: Riastradh: let me say in his defense that I was the one speaking about Common Lisp several times, and also that i talk alot about mostly CL on #lispgames where pjb may have seen me or known that I make CL games.
2019-08-29T20:15:44Z dto: so i think it is possible he really was thinking he was in the other channel.
2019-08-29T20:15:47Z dto: just saying.
2019-08-29T20:19:41Z X-Scale: pjb: check pages 28 and 38 of http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf
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2019-08-29T23:01:22Z dto: hello schemers. here is the release of my mini project, an add on for Snd written in S7 Scheme. https://gitlab.com/dto/mosaic-el
2019-08-29T23:01:28Z dto: some audio samples on there! :)
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2019-08-29T23:08:09Z evhan: dto: That's very cool.
2019-08-29T23:16:50Z dto: thanks evhan glad u like :)
2019-08-29T23:17:00Z dto: it's only about 450 lines but it's a lot of fun so far
2019-08-29T23:17:27Z dto: much of its awesomeness being provided of course by the extensive power of Snd and several external programs :)
2019-08-29T23:18:01Z evhan: The samples sound good, but sometimes they seem to drag or break rhythm. Intentional?
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2019-08-29T23:28:17Z dto: that happens in vaporwave intentionally yes, however my examples thus far are really very simple, so they can sound off
2019-08-29T23:28:32Z dto: also, i just fixed something in the pitch shifter that was causing some "breaks" gaps
2019-08-29T23:28:41Z dto: i'll try to post some new samples tonight.
2019-08-29T23:28:51Z dto: evhan: are you a vaporwaver?
2019-08-29T23:29:02Z dto: i can post an example of "proper" skipping
2019-08-29T23:29:09Z dto: from an established vaporwaver
2019-08-29T23:29:27Z dto: the group of songs starting here https://youtu.be/DAPzNsmH2BU?t=1146
2019-08-29T23:30:14Z dto: evhan: in particular i didn't put much thought into the pattern chosen for the example with Evelyn king, i'd like to do it over again
2019-08-29T23:30:26Z dto: but the basics are working. it's fun
2019-08-29T23:31:59Z evhan: I listen to it at work occasionally, that's all.
2019-08-29T23:32:00Z evhan: Yeah it looks fun.
2019-08-29T23:32:06Z dto: :)
2019-08-29T23:33:42Z Riastradh: dto: Perhaps so but that has little bearing on a consistent pattern in pjb's role in this channel for over a decade.
2019-08-29T23:33:54Z dto: oh.
2019-08-29T23:34:09Z dto: ok never mind :)
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2019-08-30T00:17:48Z pjb: Funny how vaporwave is on topic, but CL is not :-)
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2019-08-30T01:15:15Z Riastradh: pjb: Funny how the vaporwave discussion was all of a day long in contrast to a decade of confusing, offputting, distracting, bad advice from you.
2019-08-30T01:15:18Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
2019-08-30T01:15:33Z pjb [~riastradh@netbsd/developer/riastradh] has been kicked from #scheme by Riastradh (I'd say come back when you're ready to participate in the community but I don't expect that's ever any more.)
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2019-08-30T01:19:03Z aeth: I've mentioned CL all of the time here, primarily to (1) compare some Scheme feature to CL or to (2) talk about my Scheme-in-CL project. I think what's off-topic is saying "use CL instead of Scheme", which pjb has done here before.
2019-08-30T01:19:57Z aeth: You also have to be careful not to make the conversation about the other language when you bring it up since it's so easy for a channel to be hijacked.
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2019-08-30T02:14:52Z jcowan: I see no trouble with talking about CL in #scheme, or for that matter about Python.  Advocacy is another matter.
2019-08-30T02:28:53Z Riastradh: Talking about CL is fine.
2019-08-30T02:30:09Z Riastradh: Consistently giving bad Scheme advice because it's actually CL advice to novices who don't understand what's going on, and _continuing_ to do so for a decade after being asked repeatedly year after year after year to stop, is not.
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2019-08-30T02:50:52Z aeth: jcowan: Well, I mean, I personally think that SBCL is the best platform for Scheme... at least if you prefer AoT instead of JIT. Although I could be wrong because I still can't think of an elegant continuation system. Maybe I should just do something hackish.
2019-08-30T02:51:42Z aeth: It even has TCO although it's a bit non-deterministic because it relies on optimization level
2019-08-30T02:52:01Z aeth: Would be nice to patch it to require it for cl-scheme
2019-08-30T02:55:53Z mdhughes: If TCO isn't guaranteed, it's not a Scheme! Basic loops won't even work long.
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2019-08-30T03:08:50Z aeth: mdhughes: You implement a Scheme in a non-Scheme by doing a trampoline, which is fairly easy and doesn't even really cost performance that much in my benchmarking
2019-08-30T03:09:41Z lavaflow: careful, you're liable to break your neck with a trampoline.
2019-08-30T03:10:21Z mdhughes: Or you do like Chez does and write your Scheme in Scheme and assembly. Or Chicken, and use C which may as well be assembly.
2019-08-30T03:10:23Z lavaflow: more seriously, don't trampolines have trouble with mutual recursion or something?   I seem to remember some sor of limitation like that existing in clojure
2019-08-30T03:11:29Z Riastradh: lavaflow: Not if you consistently use the same trampoline mechanism for everything.
2019-08-30T03:12:35Z lavaflow: ah, okay.  but I guess that would incure more overhead than using it selectively in cases where you think believe it's necessary, and leaving it out when you think it isn't (even if it actually is) ?
2019-08-30T03:15:14Z Riastradh: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/trampoline.scm
2019-08-30T03:16:26Z lavaflow: the part that tickles me is TCO is trivial in the language I learned first, z80 assembly.   just JP instead of CALL (assuming your stack is clean)
2019-08-30T03:17:15Z jcowan: No, trampolines are perfectly complete, just costly.  Cheney on the MTA (aka Chicken) is also complete, but complex.
2019-08-30T03:17:22Z Riastradh: Often it's trivial in assembly but (a) calling conventions get in the way (like x86 calling conventions for C), and (b) teaching the compiler to rewrite the stack frame in place is a pain.
2019-08-30T03:17:55Z jcowan: And the more complex the underlying compiler gets, the more it optimizes, the less reliable all these workarounds are.  Trampolines *can't* fail.
2019-08-30T03:18:24Z jcowan: But yes, I think the Right Thing for CL-Scheme is to forget portability, target SBCL (this effort is all about speed) and rely on its tail recursion.
2019-08-30T03:18:51Z Riastradh: So, in MIT Scheme, Scheme has different calling conventions from C, which means use of the x86 CALL and RET instructions isn't as straightforward.
2019-08-30T03:19:11Z lavaflow: CL-Scheme sounds cool and all, but is there a #lang common-lisp for racket?
2019-08-30T03:19:35Z Riastradh: (For a long time MIT Scheme just used RET but not CALL, which was a disaster for performance because the CPUs keep a return address branch prediction stack.)
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2019-08-30T03:19:53Z Riastradh: (...and if you don't pair CALL and RET then it trashes those branch predictions.)
2019-08-30T03:19:54Z lavaflow: strange
2019-08-30T03:20:20Z lavaflow: yeah, unpairing CALL and RET doesn't seem like a brilliant idea.
2019-08-30T03:20:33Z Riastradh: It made sense 20-30 years ago but not today.
2019-08-30T03:20:47Z lavaflow: gotcha
2019-08-30T03:21:10Z Riastradh: Last week or whenever I changed MIT Scheme's the amd64 ABI so it would use paired CALL and RET, circuitously.
2019-08-30T03:21:44Z Riastradh: The complication is that in C, the caller pushes arguments, and then pushes a return address and jumps; and the callee just pops the return address and jumps -- while leaving the arguments on the stack.
2019-08-30T03:22:01Z Riastradh: So C can use push, push, push, call; then ret.
2019-08-30T03:22:09Z lavaflow: does MIT Scheme still see a lot of use?   that's the scheme I first encountered in university but I did most of that course with guile because it was easier to install..
2019-08-30T03:22:25Z Riastradh: But if you want to overwrite stack frames in place, you can't keep the caller's arguments on the stack.
2019-08-30T03:22:32Z lavaflow: right
2019-08-30T03:23:04Z Riastradh: So MIT Scheme now does `call 1f; jmp retaddr; 1: push; push; push' to call, and `pop; pop; pop; ret' to return.
2019-08-30T03:23:13Z Riastradh: lavaflow: heh
2019-08-30T03:28:07Z Riastradh: Conveniently, on RISC architectures, the return address just goes in the link register so there's no such complication with keeping the analogue of CALL and RET paired.
2019-08-30T03:28:28Z Riastradh: aarch64 turned out to be very well-suited to MIT Scheme's needs.
2019-08-30T03:28:42Z Riastradh: (except the stupid way it does far PC-relative addressing)
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2019-08-30T03:35:45Z lavaflow: huh, I never thought about that
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2019-08-30T13:33:48Z lockywolf_: What does this code produce on your machines? http://paste.debian.net/1097997
2019-08-30T13:34:52Z lockywolf_: On my machine it produces niter=5, and I am super confused, because when I am doing this computation on paper, I get 2^6
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2019-08-30T13:41:33Z lmln: https://pastebin.com/nqBMycbi
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2019-08-30T13:52:03Z lockywolf_: lmln, thanks...
2019-08-30T13:52:16Z lockywolf_: seems that my optimizing macro is actually deoptimizing
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2019-08-31T03:40:09Z mdhughes: Early in the coffee times, when even basic things seem to elude me:
2019-08-31T03:40:09Z mdhughes: (modulo 370.9 360)  Error: (modulo) bad argument type - not an integer: 370.9
2019-08-31T03:40:09Z mdhughes: Is there not a FP modulo?
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2019-08-31T03:44:34Z mdhughes: Chicken has a flonum module… which doesn't have flmod.
2019-08-31T03:55:03Z aeth: If it doesn't exist you can split it and do it manually with addition if you can get the part after the decimal point
2019-08-31T03:56:48Z mdhughes: Yeah, I wrote my own: (define (% a n) {let [(r (- a (* n (truncate (/ a n)) ) ) )]  (if (>= r 0.0)  r  (+ r n)) })
2019-08-31T03:58:52Z mdhughes: There's gotta be a faster bitfucking way than the math definition.
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2019-08-31T06:13:55Z dto: what's the best way to randomly choose one element of a list
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2019-08-31T06:27:06Z ecraven: the simplest way is probably (list-ref l (random (length l)))  iff you have (random int)
2019-08-31T06:36:43Z dto: thanku :)
2019-08-31T06:36:45Z dto: hi ecraven
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2019-08-31T07:06:02Z enderby: Hi, I asked a while ago about hygienic macros and got some really excellent reading material that helped a lot. Wondering if yall can point me in the right direction for the concept of continuations (call/cc), thnx
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2019-08-31T10:12:09Z nly: can a closure contain and or return itself?
2019-08-31T10:13:29Z wasamasa: wat
2019-08-31T10:13:31Z nly: (eater rest) -> #proc eater
2019-08-31T10:13:49Z nly: but now 'rest' is in the closure of eater
2019-08-31T10:14:08Z nly: hi wasamasa :)
2019-08-31T10:15:40Z wasamasa: sounds like what an OOP system would end up doing
2019-08-31T10:18:15Z nly: my 'eater' is this: L30 (define (generator...)) http://nly.info.tm:9001/guile/circular.scm
2019-08-31T10:18:41Z nly: probably, yes
2019-08-31T10:24:22Z weinholt: nly, that code makes it look like the names in case-lambda matter, but they don't, the case-lambda in generator only has two reachable cases
2019-08-31T10:25:14Z weinholt: nly, but you can use letrec to give the case-lambda a name and use the name internally in the case-lambda and when returning it from the generator procedure
2019-08-31T10:28:00Z nly: oh, ok
2019-08-31T10:28:09Z nly: nice, thanks weinholt
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2019-08-31T11:48:38Z rain1: (letrec ((clo (lambda (...) use clo here))) clo)
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2019-08-31T13:08:03Z nly: thanks rain1
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2019-08-31T13:27:03Z jcowan: mdhughes: SRFI 144 provides everything in R6RS + math.h and has a portable implementation (but you can plug in calls to your Scheme's FFI if they are faster in particular cases).
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2019-08-31T17:02:51Z mdhughes: Also doesn't have flmod?
2019-08-31T17:03:06Z mdhughes: Oh, flremainder
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2019-08-31T20:42:16Z jcowan: Most of the names are cross-indexed from math.h
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