2019-07-01T00:01:40Z Riastradh: jcowan: I updated the MIT Scheme reference manual with some numerical things, so you now have more stuff to parrot for the R42RS!
2019-07-01T00:02:02Z jcowan: Which things?
2019-07-01T00:03:38Z Riastradh: Things like logit, logistic, logsumexp, floating-point exceptions, rounding mode and environment, various useful constants like flo:error-bound, flo:ulp-of-one, flo:least-normal-exponent-base-e, flo:largest-positive-normal, total ordering.
2019-07-01T00:03:54Z Riastradh: ordered and unordered comparisons
2019-07-01T00:03:58Z Riastradh: classification
2019-07-01T00:04:09Z Riastradh: copysign
2019-07-01T00:09:48Z Riastradh: Also I used the word `tetrachotomy'.
2019-07-01T00:10:05Z Riastradh: That has _got_ to get your attention even if nothing else here does.
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2019-07-01T03:38:54Z duncanm: hey Riastradh!
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2019-07-01T09:51:45Z jcowan: Riastradh: Thanks.  I will certainly look at them.  You had told me about logit and logistic already and I have an entry on the color dockets for them.
2019-07-01T09:53:07Z jcowan: "We obtain a tetrachotomy for arbitrary finite structures: each problem is either in L, is NP-complete, is co-NP-complete or is P space-complete", thank you Dr. Google.
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2019-07-01T10:32:44Z amz3: https://github.com/alphagov/govuk-guix
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2019-07-01T11:01:45Z amz3: too bad the usefulness is not ack'ed by the rest of the team :/
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2019-07-01T11:47:42Z civodul: amz3: what do you mean?
2019-07-01T11:47:58Z civodul: by the rest of the gov.uk team?
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2019-07-01T13:39:09Z amz3: civodul: exactly.
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2019-07-01T14:14:01Z python476: amz3: let's lobby the french gov to use guix too :p
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2019-07-01T15:34:02Z python476: guys, when you encode a network as a matrix
2019-07-01T15:34:18Z python476: walking the network, is a bit like matrix application
2019-07-01T15:34:33Z python476: .. (iterate M node)
2019-07-01T15:34:47Z python476: is there another term for this ?
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2019-07-01T19:17:36Z DeeEff: Walking a graph?
2019-07-01T19:17:57Z DeeEff: or traversing a graph, I suppose
2019-07-01T19:18:45Z python476: yes
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2019-07-01T21:25:35Z amz3: python476: sure, we need to replace web browser with immediate mode guis, replace the web with peer-to-peer, replace package managers with functional ones and at last we need a scheme machine (not sure about the order)
2019-07-01T21:25:56Z python476: let's have a kickstarter
2019-07-01T21:25:56Z amz3: many things to do, not enough time.
2019-07-01T21:26:05Z amz3: python476: I love your motivation
2019-07-01T21:26:15Z python476: do I look like I have motivation ? :d
2019-07-01T21:26:20Z python476: IRC ideas are cheap :p
2019-07-01T21:27:38Z amz3: python476: that what peter hintjens told me. Ideas are cheap. That's why I used that quote in the "book": Plans are only good intentions unless they immediately degenerate into hardwork
2019-07-01T21:28:52Z python476: I do have some motivation though
2019-07-01T21:29:01Z python476: I've been doing Queinnec's book
2019-07-01T21:29:38Z python476: and the little schemer(nothing crazy)
2019-07-01T21:29:48Z python476: and I have a stupid x86 arithmetic emacs lisp compiler
2019-07-01T21:30:09Z amz3: (also I forgot the mention a (another) scheme editor)
2019-07-01T21:30:24Z python476: let's call it vix
2019-07-01T21:30:28Z python476: vi/guix
2019-07-01T21:30:30Z amz3: why vix?
2019-07-01T21:30:42Z python476: to annoy emacsens
2019-07-01T21:30:45Z amz3: I plan to change the license au arew, for that I need a package manager of some sort, that I am trying to document at https://github.com/scheme-live/sin
2019-07-01T21:31:12Z amz3: python476: I was thinking about "aide" for AI Development Environment
2019-07-01T21:31:46Z amz3: which in fact is only a text editor :P
2019-07-01T21:32:37Z amz3: maybe I am just procrastinating, today, I woke with an awful lot of ideas.
2019-07-01T21:32:44Z amz3: ... IRC kind of ideas.
2019-07-01T21:32:54Z python476: heh
2019-07-01T21:32:59Z python476: I hate when I have that now
2019-07-01T21:33:12Z python476: I want few ideas but concrete progress
2019-07-01T21:33:44Z amz3: yeah
2019-07-01T21:33:48Z amz3: exactly.
2019-07-01T21:34:40Z amz3: the worse situation is when I can not code, but I have nothing to "ruminate" in sense: I just need to do it.
2019-07-01T21:35:30Z amz3: python476: what is your plan with studying LISP
2019-07-01T21:35:50Z python476: well well
2019-07-01T21:35:57Z python476: I like manipulating trees
2019-07-01T21:36:07Z python476: I like bridging high level with native
2019-07-01T21:36:20Z python476: that's why I like books like Queinnecs'
2019-07-01T21:36:58Z amz3: do you have a concrete software you want to build or contribute?
2019-07-01T21:37:12Z amz3: sorry, if sound like startup bro
2019-07-01T21:37:34Z python476: amz3: not really
2019-07-01T21:37:44Z amz3: maybe the answer is how to compile scheme code?
2019-07-01T21:37:44Z python476: I'm mostly building brain muscle for work
2019-07-01T21:37:59Z python476: amz3: there's scheme compilation, or MakeALisp projects
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2019-07-01T21:39:37Z amz3: I have gone through some slides from past scheme workshop events (like the lisp hypergraph thing)
2019-07-01T21:39:58Z python476: do you have the link for this ?
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2019-07-01T21:40:04Z python476: sounds sexy
2019-07-01T21:40:09Z amz3: I even sent a mail to the owner, it seems very advanced ai / math thing implemented in scheme-like language inspired from  opencog
2019-07-01T21:40:31Z amz3: anyway, I read the slides of andy wingo, I don't understand what it says
2019-07-01T21:41:01Z amz3: a minute
2019-07-01T21:41:26Z amz3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v9WO1YKiz8
2019-07-01T21:41:30Z amz3: maybe the answer is how to compile scheme code?
2019-07-01T21:41:34Z amz3: oops
2019-07-01T21:41:39Z amz3: https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-919.pdf
2019-07-01T21:42:01Z python476: I was about to read compiling with continuations
2019-07-01T21:42:23Z amz3: also there is this paper that dives into the math https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3122942
2019-07-01T21:42:24Z python476: oh nada amin
2019-07-01T21:42:31Z python476: I need to read her black paper
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2019-07-01T21:42:52Z amz3: nada amin?
2019-07-01T21:43:10Z python476: she's a PL researcher, editor of the ICFP pdf you linked above
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2019-07-01T21:43:26Z python476: she made a paper about 'black' an infinite tower scheme interpreter
2019-07-01T21:43:39Z amz3: what is it?
2019-07-01T21:44:07Z amz3: i mean eli5 kind of explanation? I am not very confortable with the idea of "tower"
2019-07-01T21:44:37Z python476: multiple levels of `eval`
2019-07-01T21:44:52Z python476: except the level above can communicate a bit with the level below
2019-07-01T21:45:08Z python476: I find the idea ultra interesting even though I didn't read the paper
2019-07-01T21:45:28Z python476: mostly because most programs are ~towers, native / vm / language / application
2019-07-01T21:45:53Z amz3: definitly
2019-07-01T21:46:11Z amz3: maybe it is related to multi-staging kind of computation
2019-07-01T21:47:01Z python476: not far IMO
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2019-07-01T21:49:36Z amz3: I looking at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrKj4hYic5A
2019-07-01T21:49:47Z amz3: it seems like recursive sandbox
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2019-07-02T05:26:26Z wasamasa: rudybot: later tell python476 where's that vix you're speaking of?
2019-07-02T05:26:26Z rudybot: wasamasa: I asked `MemoServ' to forward the message to python476.
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2019-07-02T20:16:38Z amz3: python476: vix is real thing!
2019-07-02T20:16:44Z amz3: python476: vix is a real thing!
2019-07-02T20:20:14Z python476: amz3: hi back
2019-07-02T20:20:24Z python476: what is vix then ?
2019-07-02T20:20:37Z pjb: vix = x-vi = iv
2019-07-02T20:21:15Z amz3: vix is emacs-like editor that annoy vi users :)
2019-07-02T20:21:21Z amz3: +an
2019-07-02T20:21:35Z python476: pjb: not to be confused with xv6
2019-07-02T20:21:43Z python476: well I had stage 2 interview
2019-07-02T20:21:49Z python476: I'm down
2019-07-02T20:21:56Z python476: yet another blurry meeting
2019-07-02T20:22:35Z python476: I need to get my foot in the door once just to see what's expected in a company
2019-07-02T20:22:44Z python476: i'm tired of learning without a salary
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2019-07-02T20:43:26Z jcowan: There's a github repo called vixi, and there's one called vix-editor (private).
2019-07-02T20:47:32Z python476: hi jcowan
2019-07-02T20:47:59Z python476: half related question, do you scheme in emacs ?
2019-07-02T20:50:01Z jcowan: No, I scheme in ex with occasional excursions to vi so I can bounce on the % key.
2019-07-02T20:50:45Z python476: ex ?
2019-07-02T20:50:49Z python476: why not ed
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2019-07-02T21:12:07Z jcowan: I'm willing to trade some standardosity for some convenience.
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2019-07-02T23:30:56Z amz3: jcowan: congrats for your new srfi
2019-07-02T23:32:06Z amz3: jcowan: seems like it could be used to implement stored procedures that hga (and you?) were proposing
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2019-07-03T01:04:37Z jcowan: indeed
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2019-07-03T16:16:22Z kori: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyXzosc0iVc
2019-07-03T16:16:28Z kori: I just recorded a demo of Xlambda!
2019-07-03T16:16:47Z rain1: good
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2019-07-03T16:36:45Z amz3: +1
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2019-07-04T05:06:10Z dieggsy: !join #freenode_#opencv
2019-07-04T05:06:16Z dieggsy: lol whoops
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2019-07-04T08:15:44Z phaul: hi all. Im trying to add extensions to tinyscheme standalone via FFI. I'm trying to create an so that when loaded can contain functions that are callable from the interpreter. Is anybody aware of examples that being done? Tutorial/blogpost/code/anything?
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2019-07-04T09:21:34Z andrei-n: Hello.  Are there naming conventions for constants in scheme?  Thank you!
2019-07-04T09:21:55Z ecraven: andrei-n: I use +foo+ for global constants, and *foo* for global mutable objects
2019-07-04T09:22:03Z ecraven: but that's from CL, I think
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2019-07-04T09:23:26Z LeoNerd: Earmuffs
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2019-07-04T09:25:35Z andrei-n: ecraven, thanks.  In CL it's mainly because of dynamic scope (to avoid surprises, I think...)  Well, thanks anyway.  I think they should include it in the specification, whether it's advisable or not, and if so, how.  Because now it's a bit unofficial.  It seems that some people even use the C convention...
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2019-07-04T12:45:57Z amz3: andrei-n: it depends, for sometime I use ALL-CAPS sometime I use *global*
2019-07-04T12:48:42Z python476: hi am
2019-07-04T12:48:44Z python476: amz3:
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2019-07-04T12:48:52Z amz3: hello python476
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2019-07-04T12:49:16Z python476: was about to go reading another scheme chapter outside
2019-07-04T12:49:26Z python476: see ya :)
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2019-07-04T18:50:43Z python476: wow I'm shocked
2019-07-04T18:50:54Z python476: I've been trying to emulate Queinnec cps eval for years
2019-07-04T18:50:57Z python476: using pure LC
2019-07-04T18:51:29Z python476: it seems one has to have to split interpretation of Closure/Continuation in two to allow for call/cc
2019-07-04T18:51:45Z python476: (resume/invoke)
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2019-07-06T04:52:28Z lisbeths: lelelellelelel I made a version of 4cahn that is literally impossible to censor. it works immutably https://imgur.com/a/RtLwOoi there is no way to shut it down withotu shutting down http
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2019-07-06T07:33:36Z python476: hi there
2019-07-06T07:33:50Z python476: do you guys see more schemers since guixsd came out ?
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2019-07-06T07:34:11Z python476: even though it uses guile, I was curious if it made scheme in general more known
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2019-07-06T08:51:07Z python476: on that note, queinnec's time again
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2019-07-06T11:58:37Z siraben: python476:  What about Queinnec?
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2019-07-06T15:46:45Z jcowan: However, that is often done.  Both China and the Bank of America, for example, set tight limits on what sites can and cannot be reached.
2019-07-06T15:47:03Z jcowan: And of course China has sanctions above and beyond firing you.
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2019-07-06T15:59:09Z Riastradh: ?
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2019-07-06T16:36:24Z jcowan: Riastradh: What's the question?
2019-07-06T16:44:20Z Riastradh: Wondering what you were responding to?
2019-07-06T16:51:13Z jcowan: lisbeths saying "I made a version of 4cahn that is literally impossible to censor [...]", but I didn't notice that my connection had dropped; it was the last thing I saw despite being 11 hours ago.
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2019-07-07T01:09:20Z mason: jcowan: You missed someone coming in and asking about the impact of guixsd on interest in Scheme generally, but that's about it.
2019-07-07T01:11:38Z jcowan: Thanks
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2019-07-07T08:23:46Z amz3: hello #scheme :)
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2019-07-07T09:44:48Z amz3: https://speakerdeck.com/amz3/functional-databases
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2019-07-07T19:25:07Z andrei-n: Hello.  Is it possible to create a Racket GUI standalone Windows executable from Linux?  Thanks.
2019-07-07T19:31:57Z erkin: Sorta kinda, with setup/cross-system but it's rather painful.
2019-07-07T19:34:40Z andrei-n: erkin, How does it work?  It's just a single racket file, why would it be painful?
2019-07-07T19:37:39Z erkin: Racket doesn't actually compile to native code. It's just bytecode running on a VM. raco exe just embeds your bytecode into the Racket VM executable (depending on the platform).
2019-07-07T19:38:52Z erkin: It's always better to have a Racket installation available in the target platform.
2019-07-07T19:39:18Z andrei-n: So it's like Java?  It needs a runtime environment to run?
2019-07-07T19:40:18Z erkin: Yeah, pretty much. I believe all Lisps are this way. (In a way, so is every other language. C needs a libc for instance. ;-P)
2019-07-07T19:41:01Z erkin: You can still distribute executables bundled with libraries using raco distribute.
2019-07-07T19:41:40Z andrei-n: erkin, Really?  How does it work?  I couldn't find it on net...
2019-07-07T19:42:14Z erkin: Here you go https://docs.racket-lang.org/raco/exe.html https://docs.racket-lang.org/raco/exe-dist.html
2019-07-07T19:42:57Z andrei-n: erkin, but can it do it for another platform?
2019-07-07T19:43:17Z wasamasa: erkin: what about the lisps emitting machine code?
2019-07-07T19:43:18Z erkin: As for cross-platform compilation: You can fetch platform-specific Racket installation, coerce Racket into using that, and then create your executable within it. I've been meaning to do it but I have no idea if it'd work for GUI due to platform-specific bindings. I'm not too well-versed in intricacies of low-level Racket myself.
2019-07-07T19:43:39Z erkin: wasamasa: Don't they still depend on runtime libraries?
2019-07-07T19:44:07Z erkin: (Static linking doesn't count. ;-P)
2019-07-07T19:44:18Z wasamasa: take a look at chez and tell me
2019-07-07T19:50:35Z amz3: I think chez-exe does bundle everything, but it doesn't allow cross-platform builds..
2019-07-07T19:50:48Z erkin: wasamasa: I can't find anything that suggests complete standalone builds.
2019-07-07T19:51:28Z wasamasa: hence why you should try using it
2019-07-07T19:51:35Z erkin: I am
2019-07-07T19:51:39Z wasamasa: reading what other people wrote only gets you so far
2019-07-07T19:51:56Z erkin: Well, I'm reading the documentation to see if there's some other way.
2019-07-07T19:52:08Z erkin: I wrote an example script and did (compile-file) on it.
2019-07-07T19:52:34Z wasamasa: what does ldd say?
2019-07-07T19:52:39Z wasamasa: and why does it even matter, lol
2019-07-07T19:52:43Z erkin: It produces object files that are to be run with Chez, and distribution involves bundling the object with Chez executable and a boot file for startup.
2019-07-07T19:53:06Z wasamasa: ok
2019-07-07T19:53:11Z erkin: I'm not complaining at all, as I said, even C needs a runtime library.
2019-07-07T19:53:30Z wasamasa: that's just a detail of how code is organized
2019-07-07T19:53:34Z erkin: Yes
2019-07-07T19:53:47Z wasamasa: what I wonder about is the interpretation/compilation boundary
2019-07-07T19:54:13Z erkin: hmmm
2019-07-07T19:54:42Z wasamasa: like, CL people love to tell you how sbcl and such compile to native code, but it's all spread across some funny file format loaded up by sbcl
2019-07-07T19:55:03Z wasamasa: they then tell you that this only matters for distribution purposes
2019-07-07T19:55:16Z wasamasa: hence why I wonder whether chez pulls something similar
2019-07-07T19:57:49Z erkin: I wonder if it's possible to avoid any runtime dependencies at all. But then, you'd just be removing a layer of abstraction and calling things directly.
2019-07-07T19:58:33Z wasamasa: it would be inconvenient
2019-07-07T19:58:46Z erkin: Like, any non-trivial hand-assembled program still depends on other platform-specific details. You're just no longer delegating them to a single library that does the dirty work for you.
2019-07-07T19:59:29Z gwatt: amz3: chez-exe does not allow cross platform builds because Chez Scheme cannot do cross platform builds except when building itself from source.
2019-07-07T20:00:02Z erkin: I suppose I discovered that most software needs other software to work.
2019-07-07T20:00:10Z wasamasa: no shit, sherlock
2019-07-07T20:00:17Z wasamasa: I think we're overdoing it a bit though
2019-07-07T20:00:43Z andrei-n: Well, racket programs can only be distributed among people who use racket...
2019-07-07T20:01:33Z erkin: andrei-n: The easiest form of distribution is putting your project in a git repo and telling people to raco install it.
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2019-07-07T20:02:41Z erkin: `$ raco pkg install git://example.org/foobar.git` does all the work for you.
2019-07-07T20:03:22Z wasamasa: andrei-n: plenty of people do fine with raco exe for game jams
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2019-07-07T21:15:49Z mdhughes: Chicken works fine for making native binaries, but you can't (sanely) cross-compile. I'm planning on getting a crappy Windows laptop just to run builds.
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2019-07-07T21:16:36Z mdhughes: I got Racket to make native apps, but on the Mac they don't launch because they don't sign their app.
2019-07-07T21:16:57Z wasamasa: they occasionally recommend using wine for that
2019-07-07T21:17:09Z wasamasa: and mingw
2019-07-07T21:17:49Z mdhughes: I'd rather have real hardware and a real OS so I know it's not just "Works on my weird setup".
2019-07-07T21:23:02Z mdhughes: Many days I miss deploying Java. Ship a bare jar file if you're lazy, or wrap it with a copy of the JRE, works fine either way. I just don't miss writing Java, and Clojure's too ugly & slow for my taste.
2019-07-07T21:30:33Z wasamasa: have you tried kawa?
2019-07-07T21:42:36Z mdhughes: It was very slow when I tried, but maybe it's better now? I've been pretty happy with Chicken's compiler lately.
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2019-07-08T07:18:36Z andrei-n: Hello.  Is there a problem with canvas transparency on racket on Windows?  For me the canvas below is not visible...
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2019-07-08T12:02:59Z nly: has anybody implemented wrap(from Kernel) in scheme? would that even work?
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2019-07-08T12:29:01Z ecraven: what's wrap from Kernel?
2019-07-08T12:30:58Z nly: basically, (apply (wrap and) `(1 2 3)) should work
2019-07-08T12:31:53Z nly: wrap turns a special form to a function/procedure
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2019-07-08T12:34:48Z nly: (apply and '(t t t)) would signal that 'and' is a macro or some syntax error
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2019-07-08T12:40:46Z ggole: Wouldn't apply have to be a special form for that to work?
2019-07-08T12:41:22Z ggole: Or are the arguments (to apply) evaluated as normal?
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2019-07-08T12:50:15Z nly: it's plain apply, no magic, but ofcourse this is not working code
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2019-07-08T12:56:22Z ecraven: wrap would have to be syntax
2019-07-08T12:56:31Z ecraven: but I'm not sure it could actually be implemented
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2019-07-08T13:15:19Z amz3: interesting
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2019-07-08T13:39:10Z gwatt: nly: If (macro x (macro y z)) is the same as (macro x y z) it can be implemented, though in this case you will lose the short-circuit guarantees of `and` and `or`
2019-07-08T13:40:28Z gwatt: However, there's `every` and `exists` which take a predicate and at least one list and act as folding `and` and `or` respectively.
2019-07-08T13:41:14Z LeoNerd: I prefer to name those `any` and `all` - but that's only because I maintain the equivalent functions for Perl, where that's what they're called
2019-07-08T13:41:29Z LeoNerd: I find it handy they're equal length. I like the neatness of that sort of thing ;)
2019-07-08T13:42:16Z gwatt: sorry, it's `for-all` not `every`
2019-07-08T13:43:25Z nly: thanks
2019-07-08T13:50:32Z amz3: I like those procedures
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2019-07-08T14:19:56Z ecraven: gwatt: I think it's both, depending on the exact Scheme ;)
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2019-07-08T14:21:48Z gwatt: ecraven: r6rs specifies `for-all` and `exists`. srfi-1 specifies `every` and `any`
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2019-07-08T14:39:15Z erkin: Kernel accomplishes that through having fexprs
2019-07-08T14:39:29Z erkin: fexprs, unlike macros, are first-class objects
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2019-07-08T14:40:07Z erkin: I don't think a general solution is possible in Racket.
2019-07-08T14:41:57Z nly: thanks
2019-07-08T14:42:07Z nly: got it
2019-07-08T14:45:42Z erkin: Fairly sure you can do it with other languages that do fexprs though. newLISP and PicoLisp come to mind.
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2019-07-08T15:01:16Z amz3: erkin: what is kernel?
2019-07-08T15:02:54Z erkin: It's a Scheme-like Lisp whose most distinctive feature is that all forms/objects are first class.
2019-07-08T15:03:04Z erkin: http://klisp.org/
2019-07-08T15:04:13Z erkin: It gets around the static analysis problem (which led to deprecation of fexprs in the past) by syntactically distinguishing special forms.
2019-07-08T15:08:30Z ecraven: I think that's not the only problem with fexprs :D
2019-07-08T15:09:29Z erkin: Hehe
2019-07-08T15:09:46Z erkin: Isn't that why Scheme and Common Lisp opted not to inherit it from Maclisp?
2019-07-08T15:13:15Z jcowan: It's mostly that they are very hard to understand, either for the compiler or for you-six-months-later.
2019-07-08T15:14:26Z jcowan: Also, most uses of fexprs were because early Lisps didn't have a syntax for lambdas with variable numbers of arguments, so for example + was a fexpr even though the first thing it did was to evaluate its arguments.
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2019-07-08T15:32:45Z gwatt: Only fexprs could be variadic? That's weird
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2019-07-08T16:02:23Z erkin: An old Lisp I once studied had eight different forms of procedures.
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2019-07-08T16:03:18Z erkin: Subroutines (built-in, C function pointer) and expressions (written in Lisp), spread (fixed arguments) and nospread (variadic), eval and noeval (fexpr)
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2019-07-08T16:16:47Z erkin: Found it, it's Portable Standard Lisp http://user.ceng.metu.edu.tr/~ucoluk/research/lisp/lispman/node24.html
2019-07-08T16:17:02Z nisstyre: erkin: I'm pretty sure Racket has more than that
2019-07-08T16:17:51Z erkin: Racket has no eval/noeval distinction, hence no fexprs
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2019-07-08T16:47:34Z Riastradh: erkin: How does it syntactically distinguish them, and how does that `solve the static analysis problem'?
2019-07-08T16:49:03Z Riastradh: erkin: Can I call (lambda (f) (f (begin (display "hello") 0))) in such a way that it will call whatever I passed it, but not display hello?
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2019-07-08T16:59:10Z erkin: Riastradh: fexprs are notated differently, the parser can tell which procedures' arguments aren't meant to be parsed. And yes, but you use $vau, not lambda. ;-)
2019-07-08T16:59:45Z erkin: I'm not too well-versed in it myself, but you can always check out the paper explaining how it works: https://web.wpi.edu/Pubs/ETD/Available/etd-090110-124904/unrestricted/jshutt.pdf
2019-07-08T17:01:55Z erkin: define, cond, let, and, or, require etc aren't rigid special forms but just fexprs like any other. The parser doesn't look up symbols from a fixed table of special forms but know how to handle fexprs in general.
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2019-07-08T17:10:51Z Riastradh: erkin: Notated differently how?
2019-07-08T17:11:03Z erkin: $ prefix
2019-07-08T17:11:13Z erkin: Check out the website for code examples and documentation.
2019-07-08T17:11:19Z Riastradh: So if I say (lambda (f) ...) then f is guaranteed not to be a fexpr, but (lambda ($f) ...) then it's a fexpr?
2019-07-08T17:12:13Z erkin: Hm, not sure. I don't have a compiler installed.
2019-07-08T17:13:07Z Riastradh: Because the foundational problem with the idea of fexprs -- which makes any language that has them completely useless for any nontrivial engineering -- is that you _can't_ tell whether f is or is not a fexpr in (lambda (f) ...), so the evaluation rules in the ... change depending on what you pass to it at run-time.
2019-07-08T17:14:32Z erkin: Yeah, I see what you mean.
2019-07-08T17:14:42Z Riastradh: `To avoid gratuitous confusion between the two, Kernel conventionally prefixes the names of its operatives with ``$''.'
2019-07-08T17:14:56Z Riastradh: So I'm not seeing how it solves any static analysis problem.
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2019-07-08T17:15:17Z erkin: Ah, so it's not mandatory. Then I misunderstood the lexical notation.
2019-07-08T17:15:37Z erkin: Actually, I'm curious now. I'll take a look at the paper.
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2019-07-08T17:29:31Z Riastradh: So far nobody I've talked to about Kernel in the past decade or so has explained how it solves any static analysis problem even though it seems to engender excitement about `fexprs done right' or something.  If you can read through the paper and concisely summarize it, though, I'd be happy to hear.
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2019-07-08T17:37:01Z erkin: I was under the impression that it had separate namespaces, but I clearly misunderstood it.
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2019-07-08T18:08:46Z erkin: Riastradh: What you mentioned seems to be possible indeed: https://0x0.st/zLfX.txt
2019-07-08T18:09:21Z erkin: But the maths used in the paper to explain scoping is way out of my league.
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2019-07-08T21:19:50Z X-Scale: R5RS starts with "20 February 1998" and one page ahead says "The present report reflects further revisions agreed upon in a meeting at Xerox PARC in June 1992." So, R5RS was decided around 6 years before it was published in 1998 ?
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2019-07-08T23:15:52Z amz3: browser-based Scheme website Really Soon (tm)
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2019-07-08T23:18:18Z amz3: s/website/app/
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2019-07-09T00:05:37Z nly: nice
2019-07-09T00:06:52Z nly: also, scheme-based browser: https://github.com/mrosset/nomad
2019-07-09T00:09:05Z lavaflow: neat
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2019-07-09T10:58:46Z erkin: Is there a way to eval something before quoting it?
2019-07-09T10:59:09Z erkin: ie (magic '(+ 1 2)) => '3
2019-07-09T11:06:24Z erkin: Okay, that's a silly example since '3 is just 3.
2019-07-09T11:10:23Z ecraven: erkin: you can write a macro that does this
2019-07-09T11:11:17Z ecraven: though on second thought, it doesn't make any difference
2019-07-09T11:11:18Z dTal: perhaps I'm misunderstanding but doesn't (define (magic s) (quasiquote (unquote (eval s)))) do the trick
2019-07-09T11:12:27Z erkin: dTal: That'd return the value itself though.
2019-07-09T11:13:01Z dTal: hang on, what does it even mean to return a "quoted" value
2019-07-09T11:13:26Z jcowan: I assume it means to return a list of the form (quote foo).
2019-07-09T11:14:47Z erkin: Let me give a better example: (magic (car (list car cdr))) => 'car
2019-07-09T11:15:11Z ecraven: erkin: (car (list car cdr)) -> 'car anyway...
2019-07-09T11:15:30Z erkin: Fairly sure it'd return the procedure instead of the symbol.
2019-07-09T11:15:43Z erkin: As opposed to (car '(car cdr)), in which case the elements of the list are quoted.
2019-07-09T11:16:00Z ecraven: erkin: ah, sorry, good point
2019-07-09T11:16:21Z ecraven: however, there is no way to "extract" 'car from the procedure car in general...
2019-07-09T11:17:23Z ski: rudybot: eval `',(append (list 0 1) (2 3 4))
2019-07-09T11:17:23Z rudybot: ski: error: application: not a procedure; <NEWLINE>  expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments <NEWLINE>   given: 2 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    3 <NEWLINE>    4
2019-07-09T11:17:32Z ski: er
2019-07-09T11:17:35Z ski: rudybot: eval `',(append (list 0 1) (list 2 3 4))
2019-07-09T11:17:35Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: ''(0 1 2 3 4)
2019-07-09T11:17:42Z dTal: yeah, once you've eval'd (car (list car cdr)), you just have <procedure>
2019-07-09T11:18:21Z ski: (now, if i could tell rudybot to display the value itself, rather than displaying an expression which will evaluate to an `equal?' value ..)
2019-07-09T11:21:06Z ski: ecraven : anyway, i don't think  (magic (car (list car cdr))) => 'car  makes any sense, where does the symbol come from ?
2019-07-09T11:21:15Z ski: er
2019-07-09T11:21:17Z ski: erkin ^
2019-07-09T11:21:21Z ecraven: ski: well, it could come from the source ;)
2019-07-09T11:21:53Z erkin: Well, I was thinking if there is a name to obtain a procedure's handle.
2019-07-09T11:22:10Z ecraven: there isn't a portable way of doing this. some implementations provide such a thing, many do not
2019-07-09T11:22:23Z ski: but how would it know to treat `list' as a procedure, but the operands `car' and `cdr' as symbols ?
2019-07-09T11:23:14Z ski assumes ecraven is now talking about getting from a procedure to a symbol that can be used in some enviroment (which ?) to access the procedure
2019-07-09T11:23:20Z erkin: It wouldn't, ideally. The idea is that it would simply evaluate the expression, then return the resulting form as a symbol.
2019-07-09T11:23:35Z erkin: Although I'm beginning to doubt whether this is possible.
2019-07-09T11:23:41Z ski: "return the resulting form as a symbol" makes no sense to me
2019-07-09T11:24:08Z erkin: Hmm yeah you're right
2019-07-09T11:24:24Z erkin: The resulting form might not be a symbol after evaluation, after all.
2019-07-09T11:25:13Z ski: after evaluating the expression, the symbols `list',`car',`cdr' are long since out of the picture
2019-07-09T11:25:35Z erkin: Yeah, they're replaced with internal representations, I reckon.
2019-07-09T11:25:48Z ski: presumably, yes
2019-07-09T11:26:30Z dTal: what are you trying to do?
2019-07-09T11:27:10Z erkin: Just trying to see if I can dynamically obtain the handle of a procedure.
2019-07-09T11:27:22Z ski: then, what ecraven said
2019-07-09T11:27:29Z erkin: Yeah
2019-07-09T11:27:52Z ski: there need not be any such "handle" at all
2019-07-09T11:28:06Z ski: what is the handle of `(lambda (x) (x x))' ?
2019-07-09T11:30:22Z ggole: What does a handle provide that having the value of the procedure itself does not? A token for serialisation?
2019-07-09T11:31:26Z erkin: Yeah, being convertible to a string.
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2019-07-09T11:31:57Z ski: for debugging (only) ?
2019-07-09T11:32:30Z erkin: That's what I was thinking about.
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2019-07-09T11:34:19Z jcowan: The best bet is to store a procedure externally as an S-expression (lambda ...) and then eval it when it needs to be used.  That's essentially what a Scheme interpreter does when reading from a file.
2019-07-09T11:34:52Z erkin: Hm, that makes sense.
2019-07-09T11:34:57Z jcowan: SRFI 172 (in progress) is about making the evaluation safer (not to be confused with "safe", which would require a custom Scheme interpreter).
2019-07-09T11:35:30Z jcowan: Of course you are still subject to memory exhaustion and CPU overconsumption.
2019-07-09T11:36:41Z jcowan: (define (loop) (loop)) will pretty much hose any Scheme, since thanks to PTR it doesn't consume stack.
2019-07-09T11:37:06Z erkin: hah
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2019-07-09T11:41:02Z kori: hey #scheme!
2019-07-09T11:41:05Z kori: what text editors do you use?
2019-07-09T11:41:32Z erkin: Emacs :-)
2019-07-09T11:42:03Z dTal: Kate
2019-07-09T11:42:34Z tolja: Pycharm
2019-07-09T11:44:04Z ski: ("PTR" ?)
2019-07-09T11:50:26Z jcowan is an `ex` troglodyte
2019-07-09T11:50:39Z jcowan: PTR = proper tail recursion
2019-07-09T11:50:47Z ski: ah, of course
2019-07-09T11:51:07Z ski can't recall seeing that initialism before
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2019-07-09T11:52:08Z kori: ski: oh! nice to see you here, ive seen someone compliment you on your explanations :)
2019-07-09T11:52:09Z jcowan: should really be PTC, proper tail calling
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2019-07-09T11:52:47Z kori: erkin: also, with regards  to your question
2019-07-09T11:52:53Z ski: kori : have we talked before ?
2019-07-09T11:53:09Z ski: jcowan : yep, it's a misnomer
2019-07-09T11:53:16Z kori: naïve answer, but (define magic (lambda (e) (quote (eval e))))
2019-07-09T11:53:18Z kori: ski: nope
2019-07-09T11:53:27Z kori: I just heard about you heh
2019-07-09T11:53:42Z ski stares blankly
2019-07-09T11:54:00Z kori: rudybot: eval (define magic (lambda (e) (quote (eval e)))) (magic '(+ 1 2))
2019-07-09T11:54:04Z rudybot: kori: your sandbox is ready
2019-07-09T11:54:04Z rudybot: kori: ; Value: '(eval e)
2019-07-09T11:54:07Z kori: does this work :thinking:
2019-07-09T11:54:08Z jcowan: also known as tail-call optimization (in many languages) and last-call optimization (in Prolog)
2019-07-09T11:54:10Z kori: oh, silly me
2019-07-09T11:54:13Z ski: (apparently now my reputation preceeds me ? i'm not sure what to think of that)
2019-07-09T11:54:26Z dTal: "hey scheme, what's your weapon of choice? erkin> a tank | dTal> an RPG | tolja> a flamethrower | jcowan> my fists
2019-07-09T11:54:36Z erkin: kori: That's a static function that returns '(eval e) :-)
2019-07-09T11:54:38Z jcowan: Get used to it.  Soon you will be one of the official Old Farts of Scheme
2019-07-09T11:55:05Z jcowan: Excuuuuuse me.  My *steel-reinforced* fists.
2019-07-09T11:55:56Z jcowan: In any case, I do not really know the ex command set, most of the time; it is as ingrained as touch-typing.
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2019-07-09T11:56:18Z kori: oh no!
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2019-07-09T11:57:04Z ski: dTal : <https://xkcd.com/297/>
2019-07-09T11:57:09Z dTal: hm, ex has a built in lisp mode? jcowan, how good is it?
2019-07-09T11:57:43Z jcowan: no, I flip to vi mode when bouncing on the % key to check paren matching.
2019-07-09T11:58:32Z dTal: Kate only needs some good paredit shortcuts and a send-to-repl function to be a really excellent lisp editor
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2019-07-09T11:59:12Z dTal: it already has a nice indent style for lisp, and rainbow parens
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2019-07-09T12:01:58Z ski . o O ( microEmacs )
2019-07-09T12:02:50Z ski: kori : ooc, which channel would that have been, if mentioned ?
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2019-07-09T12:05:01Z kori: ski: oh this was mentioned outside of freenode but someone said they really appreciated your explanations in #haskell
2019-07-09T12:05:09Z kori: about types and whatnot
2019-07-09T12:05:18Z ski: okay
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2019-07-09T12:13:49Z jcowan: I keep multiple tabs open (min 2), one to edit and one to build
2019-07-09T12:14:30Z jcowan: I don't really want my editor clotted up with extra stuff, though of course I do use ! to filter text through commands.
2019-07-09T12:24:40Z jcowan: with complex edits, I may have two edit tabs
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2019-07-09T14:28:11Z amz3: rain1: I managed to do xhr using chibi scheme on wasm
2019-07-09T14:29:03Z amz3: it still not a general purpose ffi and it is unlikely such thing will ever exists.
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2019-07-09T14:29:48Z amz3: how it works is that there is two loops each of them in their respective virtual machine (JS vs Scheme)
2019-07-09T14:30:03Z amz3: nevermind, I tried to explain it a commit
2019-07-09T14:30:29Z amz3: https://github.com/scheme-live/ff.scm/commit/2cdb99105bf905d1eede18a3422aa8efd6959c62
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2019-07-09T14:49:29Z amz3: basically, each vm has message box that stores JSON, and each of the vm communicate via those boxes, and via some kind for cooperative scheduler they yield back control to the other when they need something from the other vm. except the cooperative behavior is split between the two vm (hence two loops)
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2019-07-09T15:18:31Z andrei-n: Hello.  I use racket for a project.  I need to work with someone who cannot code in lisp, so I would like to have a module written in algol.  Is it possible?  In particular I need to make a module that provides a procedure and to be able to share data.  Thank you.
2019-07-09T15:19:06Z razzy`: can i talk
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2019-07-09T15:19:31Z amz3: razzy`: yes
2019-07-09T15:19:38Z amz3: andrei-n: otherwise try #racket
2019-07-09T15:20:01Z razzy`: i want z80 cpm emulator for android to do some development on the go
2019-07-09T15:20:30Z amz3: what is z80 cpm?
2019-07-09T15:20:52Z razzy`: z80 chip, cp/m type of emulation
2019-07-09T15:20:53Z jcowan: Z80 is a chip; CP/M is an operating system.
2019-07-09T15:21:26Z razzy`: imho it is central prcessing + memory
2019-07-09T15:21:27Z jcowan: The Z80 is the ancestor of the x86 chip line, CP/M is the ancestor of MS-DOS.
2019-07-09T15:23:26Z jcowan: The Z80 has 8-bit registers with 16-bit memory addresses
2019-07-09T15:23:52Z amz3: TIL
2019-07-09T15:25:26Z razzy`: it is been pain very much so far
2019-07-09T15:25:58Z jcowan: "What is Windows [pre-NT]?  A 32-bit overlay on a 16-bit OS from an 8-bit system from a 4-bit chip, made by a 2-bit company that doesn't care 1 bit about its users."
2019-07-09T15:26:27Z razzy`: fun joke
2019-07-09T15:26:30Z amz3: +1
2019-07-09T15:26:38Z erkin: haha
2019-07-09T15:26:43Z amz3: it made the news again today
2019-07-09T15:27:42Z nly: lol
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2019-07-09T15:31:36Z siraben: I love the Z80
2019-07-09T15:33:07Z razzy`: siraben: i think i like the simplness
2019-07-09T15:34:02Z razzy`: anyone want to discuss it?
2019-07-09T15:34:30Z amz3: I am total noob in hardware stuff, I don't mind lurking.
2019-07-09T15:35:08Z amz3: well CP/M is software but still too low level for me.
2019-07-09T15:35:10Z amz3 hides
2019-07-09T15:36:03Z siraben: razzy`: I wrote an assembler for the Z80
2019-07-09T15:36:05Z siraben: in scheme
2019-07-09T15:37:17Z siraben: razzy`: https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80 sort of inactive now
2019-07-09T15:38:00Z siraben: I wonder if someone wrote a Scheme implementation for the Z80
2019-07-09T15:39:43Z razzy`: uhm
2019-07-09T15:40:12Z razzy`: my main goal is to run 8klisp on android 5
2019-07-09T15:41:39Z razzy`: and 8klisp can be run on z80 CPM emulation straight. i have done it on main computer
2019-07-09T15:43:38Z ski: wg #lispcafe
2019-07-09T15:44:58Z ski: <https://www.c64-wiki.de/wiki/LIMP>,<https://telarity.com/~dan/cbm/languages.html#LISP> is not Scheme, but Lisps on the C64 (6502), at least
2019-07-09T15:45:25Z razzy`:  ski ? wg?
2019-07-09T15:45:40Z ski: razzy`, mistype
2019-07-09T15:46:03Z ski: (<https://www.c64-wiki.de/wiki/PROLOG_64>,<https://www.lyonlabs.org/commodore/onrequest/collections.html> is also interesting, a Prolog on C64)
2019-07-09T15:48:39Z ski: ("Turbo Assembler" <http://turbo.style64.org/> is a nice IDE for developing in 6502 asm, on the C64)
2019-07-09T15:49:16Z ski: razzy` : have you had a ZX Spectrum ?
2019-07-09T15:50:09Z ski: (or some other system using a Z80)
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2019-07-09T16:03:24Z razzy`: ski, no. it just feel natural
2019-07-09T16:03:43Z ski: Z80 felt natural ?
2019-07-09T16:04:17Z razzy`: um, best description i could give
2019-07-09T16:04:19Z ski: have you tried 6502, 680x0, or some other line of processors ?
2019-07-09T16:04:31Z ski: razzy`, okay
2019-07-09T16:06:51Z rain1: amz3: nice
2019-07-09T16:08:43Z amz3: :)
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2019-07-09T16:09:45Z amz3: it requires some polish, I am thinking what is the best course of action to maximazie utility of time... not got past the planning phase, yet, on how to proceed.
2019-07-09T16:20:57Z razzy`: amz3: your idea for scheduler?
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2019-07-10T10:03:02Z amz3: razzy`: the whole thing requires more polish, i have todo list here: https://github.com/scheme-live/ff.scm/issues/1
2019-07-10T10:17:55Z amz3: the scheduler works for the base cases, but I sense some race condition looming related to browser auto-fill behavior
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2019-07-10T11:08:35Z amz3: it is at least the 4th time I re-implement this code just counting the scheme implementation, I did similar stuff in js and python
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2019-07-10T16:13:30Z Zipheir: amz3: Ugh, so much JS!
2019-07-10T16:15:39Z Zipheir: I'm sure it's a decision made by wiser folks than I, but I can only say that I hope the scheme-live site works to some extent with JS disabled.
2019-07-10T16:17:52Z amz3: Zipheir: where do you see so much JS?
2019-07-10T16:18:40Z amz3: There is no scheme-live site for the time being, this is just an org that I use to put all my scheme related repo
2019-07-10T16:18:48Z Zipheir: https://github.com/scheme-live/ff.scm is the repo, right?
2019-07-10T16:19:13Z Zipheir: Oh, ok.
2019-07-10T16:19:13Z amz3: indeed there is lot of js, I promise I did not write those files :)
2019-07-10T16:19:57Z Zipheir: :-)
2019-07-10T16:20:47Z amz3: I am balanced between the joy of having a new toy and what terrible things I can with it
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2019-07-10T16:28:14Z kori: what's the convention?
2019-07-10T16:28:19Z kori: do predicates always return #t/#f
2019-07-10T16:28:23Z kori: or can they return values instead of #t?
2019-07-10T16:28:36Z kori: I mean
2019-07-10T16:28:45Z kori: they can, right? but conventionally, should they?
2019-07-10T16:29:26Z amz3: they must return #t or #f and the name must end with ?
2019-07-10T16:29:43Z amz3: otherwise, by convention, it is not a predicate
2019-07-10T16:30:14Z amz3: take 'and' it is bad example somewhat but it can return something else than #t / #f same for #or
2019-07-10T16:30:31Z kori: suppose I'm handling failure by returning #f where the function would fail, and a value otherwise
2019-07-10T16:30:45Z kori: (this is dealing with C code)
2019-07-10T16:30:49Z amz3: In that case I think it is not a predicate
2019-07-10T16:31:09Z amz3: returning #f in case of error is totally valid behavior, but it is not a predicate
2019-07-10T16:31:20Z kori: i.e. (window/width? window-id)
2019-07-10T16:31:26Z kori: would return #f if the window doesn't exist
2019-07-10T16:31:31Z kori: and a number otherwise
2019-07-10T16:32:10Z kori: is this weird?
2019-07-10T16:32:23Z kori: i used (window/get-width) in the past
2019-07-10T16:32:31Z rain1: everything is considered true except #f
2019-07-10T16:32:39Z kori: but i figured width? was better because it returns on #f and all values are #t except #f
2019-07-10T16:32:41Z kori: rain1: yeah
2019-07-10T16:32:43Z amz3: window-width would look better imo
2019-07-10T16:33:15Z kori: amz3: it's because I have other functions like
2019-07-10T16:33:17Z rain1: scheme@(guile-user)> (and 1 2)
2019-07-10T16:33:18Z kori: (window/border-width?)
2019-07-10T16:33:19Z rain1: $1 = 2
2019-07-10T16:33:21Z rain1: scheme@(guile-user)> (or 1 2)
2019-07-10T16:33:23Z rain1: $2 = 1
2019-07-10T16:33:34Z rain1: that's an example where you don't get #t but it's still "true"
2019-07-10T16:33:38Z kori: yeah
2019-07-10T16:34:00Z kori: amz3: so I figured using / would be better
2019-07-10T16:34:02Z kori: namespacing-wise
2019-07-10T16:34:06Z Zipheir: kori: There's a convention in Scheme whereby some functions return #f on failure and a non-#f value otherwise.
2019-07-10T16:34:15Z kori: Zipheir: right
2019-07-10T16:34:16Z Zipheir: kori: IIRC jcowan is calling these 'schemes'
2019-07-10T16:34:16Z amz3: kori: the convetion is that / in a name means 'with' 'window/width' read window-with-width
2019-07-10T16:34:40Z kori: huuuuuuuh never seen that before
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2019-07-10T16:35:05Z amz3: I never seen mona lisa, I still think it is a thing..
2019-07-10T16:35:05Z kori: I'm trying to be clear in terms of script readability
2019-07-10T16:35:11Z Zipheir: amz3: In that case, we should have `call/current-continuation', à la `call/cc'
2019-07-10T16:35:31Z kori: amz3: oh, I didn't mean it that way
2019-07-10T16:35:37Z kori: i just didn't know that
2019-07-10T16:35:42Z amz3: Zipheir: I don't think it is widespread that / means 'with' but I already read it
2019-07-10T16:35:48Z Zipheir: Yeah, ditto.
2019-07-10T16:36:14Z Zipheir: call/values, call/input-file, etc.
2019-07-10T16:36:35Z Zipheir: It's actually semantically nice.
2019-07-10T16:36:43Z amz3: kori: I also use slashes for webdev, where I do thing like get/path/to/ressource or post/path/to/endpoint
2019-07-10T16:38:09Z amz3: kori: what do guilers think of the slash? did you ask on #guile?
2019-07-10T16:38:20Z kori: amz3: I didn't ask in #guile
2019-07-10T16:38:25Z kori: but i will, shortly
2019-07-10T16:38:29Z kori: after pushing this code
2019-07-10T16:38:31Z kori: thanks :D
2019-07-10T16:39:27Z Zipheir: kori: See R7RS section 1.3.5.  Functions that end in `?' are assumed to always return a boolean and to be pure.
2019-07-10T16:39:57Z kori: Zipheir: yeah, I use ! for setters/impure functions
2019-07-10T16:40:01Z kori: i.e. (window/teleport!)
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2019-07-10T16:50:38Z jcowan: Pure *and* functional: that is to say, they have no side effects, and don't depend on anything but their arguments.
2019-07-10T16:50:55Z jcowan: (The two concepts are often associated but are logically independent.)
2019-07-10T16:51:28Z jcowan: For example, a procedure can be functional even if it logs something, which makes it impure.
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2019-07-10T16:53:14Z kori: ah yeah
2019-07-10T16:53:19Z kori: considering i'm getting state from X
2019-07-10T16:53:23Z kori: none of this is functional
2019-07-10T16:54:40Z Zipheir: jcowan: Good point.
2019-07-10T16:55:10Z jcowan: In general we don't worry about impurity when the side effect can't be noticed by the program (programs don't typically read their own logs or their own performance counters, e.g.)
2019-07-10T16:55:56Z jcowan: Also, allocation is impure from the allocation procedure's point of view, but not from its client.
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2019-07-10T17:03:00Z Zipheir: Reminds me of Riastradh's comment to the effect of (IIRC) "`pure' languages just isolate impurity".
2019-07-10T17:04:53Z jcowan nods.
2019-07-10T17:05:08Z jcowan: At the bottom, after all, is an entirely imperative CPU.
2019-07-10T17:06:07Z Zipheir: Well, assuming the universe has side-effects.
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2019-07-10T18:04:39Z amz3: Zipheir: the reason most website are JS only is because it is more work to support both JS and non-JS, as far as i know there is no way to support both at the same time. So-called universal webapp has made pchit!
2019-07-10T18:06:10Z aeth: amz3: Doesn't excuse the websites that are a blank page without JS.
2019-07-10T18:06:48Z amz3: that is what I say, Universal webapp became progressive web app which are rarely implemented
2019-07-10T18:06:55Z Zipheir: amz3: Probably true.  "We have a horribly complicated thing to maintain, and it would be more work to maintain something simple on top of that.  Solution: force everyone to use the complicated thing."
2019-07-10T18:07:05Z aeth: amz3: What happens if a blind person wants to go to that site? Was it tested with a screen reader? Do they have to screen read a modern web browser now instead of being able to use something simpler?
2019-07-10T18:07:21Z Zipheir: aeth: Exactly.
2019-07-10T18:07:31Z aeth: All that JS for features they literally cannot use that potentially interfere with a feature they literally need
2019-07-10T18:08:09Z aeth: And if you override browser functionality to reimplement it yourself in JS, even a tied-to-the-browser screenreader won't help them
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2019-07-10T18:08:37Z amz3: Zipheir: in fact, I will talk for Scheme in the browser, everything happens in Scheme (css, html and dynamic behavior) it is much easier than dabbling with .css .html .scm all around.
2019-07-10T18:09:34Z amz3: I agree with the screen reader, I am not sure what the situation is regarding pure-js rendered webpages in screen readers, but again, universal app doesn't exists
2019-07-10T18:09:56Z amz3: having one app + several medium is wishful thinking.
2019-07-10T18:10:05Z Zipheir: aeth: It's amazing how unaware site owners are of that problem.  I recall telling a bank that their super-slippy-new JS monstrosity was an accessibility problem, and their response was basically... "really?"
2019-07-10T18:11:04Z amz3: maybe HOP is better in this regard, but they "marketing" departement is a poor, also they "deprecated" the scheme framework
2019-07-10T18:11:34Z Zipheir: amz3: Probably because `apps' is the wrong way to think about the web, but I know that's fighting a losing^H^H^H lost battle.
2019-07-10T18:11:44Z amz3: I say marketing, because they decided that compiling javascript to javascript in scheme was better than scheme-all-the-things
2019-07-10T18:12:42Z amz3: my dream is to build a peer-to-peer application, it would be up to the user to choose how to consume the data, but I don't think it is possible to have a single app support multiple medium again.
2019-07-10T18:12:52Z amz3: at least, html, try to do something about it
2019-07-10T18:13:46Z Zipheir: In principle, HTML totally leaves 'how to consume the data' to the user, but HTML5 sort of killed that.
2019-07-10T18:13:53Z amz3: really?
2019-07-10T18:14:08Z aeth: Zipheir: But why did people forget? Just 10 years ago people were recommending to test a site in lynx!
2019-07-10T18:14:13Z amz3: html5 is better than html4 it has more semantic tags
2019-07-10T18:14:28Z amz3: but nobody use them afaik
2019-07-10T18:14:45Z aeth: Although yes, there's probably something more... semantic you can test with these days
2019-07-10T18:15:02Z aeth: That I haven't heard of it yet isn't a good sign
2019-07-10T18:15:55Z Zipheir: I mean, HTML5 has gone way, way beyond the old header-div-span document structuring of older HTML.
2019-07-10T18:16:31Z amz3: well html 5 introduce audio and video that doesn't look bad to me
2019-07-10T18:16:37Z Zipheir: e.g., canvases??  Oh yes, you can render them anyway you want.  Enjoy, terminal peon.
2019-07-10T18:16:52Z aeth: I wonder how accessible YouTube is. There's lots of audio-only or primarily-audio content. Obviously it doesn't help you if you have to use a billing or government site...
2019-07-10T18:16:55Z amz3: yes, there more tham text now
2019-07-10T18:17:48Z amz3: I don't think web is bad thing, but I totally agree we should do more for accessibility
2019-07-10T18:18:31Z aeth: Well, being able to use whatever client I want (old web, current IRC) is imo important for accessibility
2019-07-10T18:18:39Z amz3: what I dislike about the web is the browser pseudo sandbox. But that would / will and happens already in graphical apps shipped in distros
2019-07-10T18:18:47Z Zipheir: aeth: Indeed.
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2019-07-10T18:19:24Z amz3: not popular opinion: i think their should be specific apps for instead of generic screen readers
2019-07-10T18:19:34Z Zipheir: amz3: How so?
2019-07-10T18:19:34Z aeth: IRC is probably way more accessible than e.g. Discord unless Discord spent tons of money they don't make on their $0 webapp
2019-07-10T18:19:36Z amz3: for blinds
2019-07-10T18:20:06Z aeth: amz3: Both IRC and (semantic) web allow you to write your own accessible interface as an entirely different client
2019-07-10T18:20:07Z amz3: for the same reasons "content creators" pushed the web the way it now
2019-07-10T18:20:22Z Zipheir: aeth: By definition it's more accessible, since if for what ever reason you need a non-official Discord client, you're out of luck.
2019-07-10T18:20:35Z aeth: Chat apps that require their own client, and websites that only work on Chrome/Firefox rendering, are bad imo
2019-07-10T18:20:39Z amz3: that is we want as "content creator" to fine-tune the user experience
2019-07-10T18:21:01Z Zipheir: Ugh, I hate that phrase.  Why not "space-filler"?
2019-07-10T18:21:50Z aeth: amz3: The problem is people don't want their content scraped
2019-07-10T18:21:57Z Zipheir: aeth: And this is indeed part of the accessibility problem.  What if you can't run Chrome?
2019-07-10T18:22:01Z amz3: to me there is only one way to support multiple user experience, exposing the data and document it, like a vocabulary dictionary that specific users can adapt to particular situations
2019-07-10T18:22:26Z amz3: aeth: that I disagree with, knowledge should be freely available
2019-07-10T18:22:33Z amz3: in the sense of libre
2019-07-10T18:22:36Z aeth: amz3: But that's incompatible with a world where ads are the main revenue source
2019-07-10T18:22:45Z amz3: that I agree with again
2019-07-10T18:22:54Z aeth: If I make a document and anyone can copy it, then I don't get ad impressions
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2019-07-10T18:23:11Z amz3: aeth: ads non-only are hurting brain neurons, but it is running in a fake economy, the bubble with one day explode
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2019-07-10T18:23:35Z aeth: Bubbles don't always pop. Gold is a bubble!
2019-07-10T18:24:00Z amz3: aeth: that is the logic, modern logic. The true way to do marketing is to actually reach your users, not with fantasy, but with more texts or explanatiom comparisons and discussion but that ... cost money.
2019-07-10T18:24:11Z Zipheir: The worst-possible outcome of that more-visits-good-downloading-bad way of thinking is a Widevine-by-default, read-only web.
2019-07-10T18:24:16Z Zipheir shivers
2019-07-10T18:24:46Z amz3: I don't understand.
2019-07-10T18:25:16Z aeth: I remember sites that disabled right clicking. Now I only see that on videos. No, I want to watch your video at 2x speed. I almost always want to watch videos at 2x speed.
2019-07-10T18:25:33Z Zipheir: Hah.
2019-07-10T18:26:00Z amz3: What i mean, is that only natural indexing is good, search engines adds are useless spent time and harmful using emotions and disturbe the user
2019-07-10T18:26:13Z Zipheir: Natural indexing?
2019-07-10T18:26:18Z aeth: Anyone who disables right click on videos without providing the same functionality (and YouTube does both, where you can right click it twice to get browser right click iirc) should be banned from webdev forever.
2019-07-10T18:26:28Z amz3: yeah, actual content people can link to
2019-07-10T18:26:34Z Zipheir: Ah, ok.
2019-07-10T18:26:41Z Zipheir: That sounds good
2019-07-10T18:27:03Z aeth: YouTube is still the only fully usable video player in a web browser in 2019 and it doesn't do much compared to VLC
2019-07-10T18:27:18Z amz3: there is such content, even today but it buried in the web and only "geeks" look for those..
2019-07-10T18:28:03Z aeth: amz3: SEO won. Not sure when. Sometime in the past few years. But they won.
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2019-07-10T18:28:17Z aeth: Now Google is useless for many heavily SEOed terms
2019-07-10T18:28:22Z amz3: aeth: SEO doesn't work anymore
2019-07-10T18:29:04Z amz3: aeth: for that very reasons, people do SEO they don't reach people, good content is buried because SEO take advantage of google dark patterns (bugs)
2019-07-10T18:29:33Z amz3: only network i mean friends and collegues can make thing happen.
2019-07-10T18:30:06Z aeth: If the Google search for "trucks" doesn't have tbe Wikipedia article [[truck]] or maybe some truck enthusiast's independent website or whatever and instead it's a bunch of landing pages to buy various brands' trucks, then SEO works
2019-07-10T18:30:09Z amz3: aeth: there has been a post about someone complaining SEO was very hard. The marketing throught natural indexing is crowded
2019-07-10T18:30:35Z amz3: aeth: landing pages don't make it to front page
2019-07-10T18:30:48Z amz3: aeth: they are made for ads.
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2019-07-10T18:32:17Z amz3: I think half of the first page is ads, the rest is what people call the "bubble" basicaaly, their learning to rank algorithm, that is based on NLP and stuff but also network effects via twitter they do brand analysis (good old page rank) even on media sites
2019-07-10T18:32:49Z aeth: If "car" isn't about cons pairs on the front page than we lost as a language
2019-07-10T18:33:07Z amz3: :)
2019-07-10T18:33:21Z Zipheir: "car": Did you mean John McCarthy?
2019-07-10T18:33:37Z amz3: also, people say, a source available search engine is impossible because SEO would be worse
2019-07-10T18:33:56Z Zipheir: That's a convenient argument.
2019-07-10T18:34:09Z amz3: yeah
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2019-07-10T18:34:25Z Zipheir: One of the problems is that there's barely any competition in the web search market.
2019-07-10T18:34:36Z amz3: there is
2019-07-10T18:34:43Z amz3: in france there is qwant
2019-07-10T18:35:02Z Zipheir: Right, but, IIUC, most other engines use results from Google?
2019-07-10T18:35:05Z amz3: an independant search engine that rely on bing which rely on google which rely on alien technology
2019-07-10T18:35:26Z Zipheir: AKA statistical AI hacks
2019-07-10T18:36:29Z amz3: yes there is joke in Informational Retrieval field that goes and say along the thing that "there is no golden corpus or metrics to tell wether a search engine is good, the only metrics is google first page of results"
2019-07-10T18:36:43Z amz3: that want to say that "they don't even try to do better than google"
2019-07-10T18:36:52Z amz3: they just want google results, that's a pity.
2019-07-10T18:36:53Z Zipheir: Wow.  Ha ha, only serious.
2019-07-10T18:37:59Z amz3: the underlying problem, is that you or me or any group of person, can not tell what should be first page of results it merely heuristics that are hacked by users
2019-07-10T18:38:51Z amz3: moreoever the heuristics are hacked in the sense of "security hacking" taking advantage of the system to do "bad things" (tm)
2019-07-10T18:39:30Z amz3: that happens all the time in many situation, ads are hacking of the human mind, social engineering is hacking of human ability to decide what correct or not.
2019-07-10T18:40:14Z Zipheir: That's taking the metaphor a bit far, but ok.
2019-07-10T18:41:15Z amz3: the single best feature that search engine could get, to my mind, is improving their product to be goal oriented.
2019-07-10T18:41:32Z amz3: instead of one-of searches, they should consider a whole activity.
2019-07-10T18:41:37Z Zipheir: amz3: For those of us who know something about the web, we're not really 'bubbled' by what google shows us.  But for people who think the internet 'comes through google', there is certainly a problem.
2019-07-10T18:42:02Z amz3: just like a text editor, it takes a title, an abstract but the body would be search queries and search results.
2019-07-10T18:42:22Z Zipheir: Interesting.
2019-07-10T18:42:54Z amz3: they already do it, but they do not show it in the ui... for bad reasons i assume ;)
2019-07-10T18:43:08Z amz3: it would allow people to organize
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2019-07-10T18:43:26Z amz3: which some bad tongue would say is not in the interest of the owners
2019-07-10T18:44:24Z Zipheir: Yes.  It's surprising that the very crude search-term -> infinite-list-of-results model hasn't been improved much in 25 years.
2019-07-10T18:44:33Z amz3: very bad.
2019-07-10T18:44:56Z amz3: they are focused on revenue, not improving the overall human "way-of-life"
2019-07-10T18:44:58Z ecraven: especially since google has stopped actually searching for what I type exactly, but instead searches for whatever it believes I actually want to see
2019-07-10T18:45:11Z Zipheir: I know, right?
2019-07-10T18:45:20Z ecraven: I *know* what I type, just search for that...
2019-07-10T18:45:22Z amz3: ecraven: but that should be only "opt-in" that is good but it should be "opt-in"
2019-07-10T18:45:32Z ecraven: results have been steadily worse with google over the last decade or so
2019-07-10T18:45:35Z ecraven: it used to be really good
2019-07-10T18:45:46Z amz3: that the filter bubble, it has been predicted for years
2019-07-10T18:45:57Z amz3: Filter Bubble, look for the TED talk
2019-07-10T18:46:41Z Zipheir: I think the 'filter bubble' is a moral panic right now; it's not as though people haven't building their own bubbles for millenia.
2019-07-10T18:47:14Z amz3: you can not even opt-out of learning to rank algorithms of google, you can say things like "more like this article" but without mentions of that particular brand name or using wood etc... this is prehistoric search engines.
2019-07-10T18:47:55Z amz3: Zipheir: my thought exactly, there has always been filter bubbles, but the dominance of google put at risk the diversity of thoughts.
2019-07-10T18:48:14Z Zipheir: Perhaps that's true.
2019-07-10T18:48:14Z amz3: putting the avenir of humanity in the hand of very very few.
2019-07-10T18:48:42Z amz3: I use to think, google was good thing like many others.
2019-07-10T18:49:30Z amz3: especially since they make it hard to customize the results. There use to be very useful features link "who links to that url"
2019-07-10T18:49:39Z amz3: but they were removed..
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2019-07-10T18:50:54Z Zipheir: I think it's a larger trend.  At some point, 'user-friendly' started to mean 'tell the user what they want'.
2019-07-10T18:50:58Z Riastradh: Search quality decline is not just about filter bubbles.  Happens even if you browse through Tor.
2019-07-10T18:51:13Z amz3: I read they are people that work on _intelligence_ tools, that is that given a source of data, help to user grasp the content, but it is the very beginning
2019-07-10T18:52:28Z ecraven: Riastradh: unfortunately duckduckgo (or anything else I tried) is not yet at the quality google used to deliver :-/
2019-07-10T18:52:29Z Zipheir: (I take that back.  'User-friendliness' has _always_ been about telling the user what they want.)
2019-07-10T18:52:31Z ecraven: any suggestions?
2019-07-10T18:52:51Z Zipheir: StartPage/ixquick isn't bad.
2019-07-10T18:52:51Z Riastradh: ecraven: private card catalog
2019-07-10T18:52:56Z Zipheir: Hah.
2019-07-10T18:53:03Z amz3: https://cra.org/ccc/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/02/Accelerating-Science-Whitepaper-CCC-Final2.pdf
2019-07-10T18:53:35Z Riastradh: About eight years ago, I found Google consistently better than StartPage -- I'd start with StartPage, and if it couldn't find what I was looking for, Google often could.
2019-07-10T18:53:55Z Riastradh: These days I don't see much of a difference.  Every now and then I search Google for things and it's just as bad as DDG and StartPage, if not worse.
2019-07-10T18:54:04Z Riastradh: (anecdata)
2019-07-10T18:54:08Z amz3: I am satisfied with ddg, also semanticsearch is an alternative to google scholar
2019-07-10T18:54:24Z ecraven: google is still better than ddg for me
2019-07-10T18:54:29Z amz3: that is much better that schollar
2019-07-10T18:54:35Z ecraven: especially for non-english pages, ddg isn't great
2019-07-10T18:54:44Z amz3: I don't say I don't fallback to google soe time
2019-07-10T18:54:51Z amz3: I only do english
2019-07-10T18:54:56Z Riastradh: DDG never puts up a captcha.
2019-07-10T18:55:00Z amz3: yeah ddg is not great for i18n
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2019-07-10T18:55:33Z aeth: Oh, and to test my joke earlier, I googled "car" on Duckduckgo and the first result was "California Association of Realtors" or something like that. Even Google private browsing wouldn't do that because it'll still bubble you by location.
2019-07-10T18:56:26Z aeth: and that shows you not only how English-centric and American-centric DDG is but how California-centric it is
2019-07-10T18:58:52Z Zipheir: California über alles!
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2019-07-10T19:08:06Z amz3: do people here read lambda the ultimate? I rarely see posts about it?!
2019-07-10T19:08:23Z wasamasa: lambda the ultimate kitchen utensil
2019-07-10T19:10:02Z amz3: what is it about? is like functional programming centric or more sciency
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2019-07-10T19:13:31Z jcowan: What I find irritating now is when I search for [good search terms site:whatever.example.org] and get results, and then search for [good search terms] and get nothing.  How can this be, Google?
2019-07-10T19:23:03Z Zipheir: amz3: It's called 'the programming languages weblog', so...
2019-07-10T19:23:11Z aeth: jcowan: maybe the web is too large now?
2019-07-10T19:23:56Z amz3: must have search engine experience v2
2019-07-10T19:23:59Z jcowan: Perhaps it can't find the terms fast enough, I admit, when the search is not restricted.  But returning "Not found" is still bogus.
2019-07-10T19:24:05Z jcowan: s/Not/Nothing
2019-07-10T19:24:54Z amz3: it is bean 20 years and the search xp did not evolve
2019-07-10T19:25:26Z amz3 keeping doing sily typing mistakes
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2019-07-10T22:40:33Z kori: suppose I have a function f that returns (1 2 3 4)
2019-07-10T22:40:40Z kori: i.e. (f) -> '(1 2 3 4)
2019-07-10T22:41:24Z kori: oh
2019-07-10T22:41:28Z kori: nevermind I answered my own question
2019-07-10T22:41:34Z kori: thanks
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2019-07-10T22:50:22Z dTal: another happy customer
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2019-07-10T22:57:05Z ski: amz3 : i read it, sometimes
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2019-07-10T23:13:45Z ski: "`pure' languages just isolate impurity" -- yes, they remove the "side" from "side-effects", leaving "effects", by being explicit about them (both in the interface, and in the code)
2019-07-10T23:15:28Z Riastradh: `Purity' is such an awful ideologically loaded misleading term for putting accurate labelling on effects.
2019-07-10T23:15:29Z ski: i'm not sure "At the bottom, after all, is an entirely imperative CPU.'" is that relevant, though. i consider that an implementation detail. what matters is what kind of reasoning (using in analysis,refactoring,&c.) is valid, at the level of the language itself
2019-07-10T23:15:46Z ski: yes, unfortunately, it's a quite vague term
2019-07-10T23:16:25Z ski . o O ( "What is a Purely Functional Language?" by Amr Sabry in 1993-01 at <https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/purelyFunctional.ps> )
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2019-07-10T23:18:26Z ski . o O ( "Referential Transparency, Definiteness and Unfoldability" by Harald Søndergaard,Peter Sestoft in 1987-11-30 - 1990-01-04 at <http://www.cs.tufts.edu/~nr/cs257/archive/peter-sestoft/ref-trans.pdf> )
2019-07-10T23:19:21Z ski . o O ( <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/210835/what-is-referential-transparency>,<https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/x8rr6/uday_reddy_on_referential_transparency_and_fp/>,<http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/xgq27/uday_reddy_sharpens_up_referential_transparency/> )
2019-07-10T23:23:16Z ski: (oh .. and i suppose i could say that i consider exceptions (or conditions), and also a program fragment reading a non-local, mutable, location, to be effects. logging is an interesting case. it depends on whether it's done for "debugging purposes", or is part of the "denotation" (main meaning) of the program, rather than the "connotation" (secondary meanings))
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2019-07-11T04:28:41Z Zipheir: ski: That Reddy post on referential transparency is one of the best answers I've seen on StackExchange.  Thanks for sharing.
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2019-07-11T04:49:55Z ski smiles
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2019-07-11T04:56:13Z Riastradh: It's also...simultaneously at odds with modern usage, condescendingly prescriptivist, and disingenuous about not understanding what the modern usage is.
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2019-07-11T04:58:05Z Zipheir: Yes, after reading the postscript I wonder if he's perhaps splitting hairs a bit.
2019-07-11T04:58:51Z Zipheir: Even admitting that the common understanding of the term "has a certain amount of coherence".
2019-07-11T04:59:38Z Riastradh: Dressing it up in erudition of quoting and name-dropping `towering figures' in philosophy with `earth-shattering' `intellectual power' doesn't help to stem the flow of ivory scorn oozing out this character's ears.
2019-07-11T05:05:00Z Riastradh: It's all well and good to examine the etymological history of a kind of opaque term like `referential transparency', but is it so hard to just say that in `int x = 3; f(x++); ... x ...', you can't substitute 3 for x++ and get the same program, and acknowledge that that's what everyone in functional programming means by it these days?
2019-07-11T05:05:58Z nisstyre: ski: if you have a local mutable var that cannot be aliased then how does that affect referential transparency exactly?
2019-07-11T05:08:46Z Zipheir: I think he accepts that, but he seems to have a denotational allergy to functional programmers talking about `values' rather than some broader range of objects.
2019-07-11T05:09:03Z Riastradh: Obviously Strachey's point is that the interpretation of `x++' is a function like (lambda (store) (values (ref store 'x) (update store 'x (+ 1 (ref store 'x))))) and that _function_ can be substituted everywhere `x++' appears in the interpretation of the program.
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2019-07-11T05:11:14Z Zipheir: That's clear.
2019-07-11T05:11:20Z nisstyre: I would like to see more attention given to figuring out how concepts like referential transparency / purity / etc apply to actor model languages like Pony, E, Erlang, etc
2019-07-11T05:11:43Z nisstyre: is it ok for an actor to mutate its internal state as long as it only communicates via messages?
2019-07-11T05:11:45Z nisstyre: IDK
2019-07-11T05:12:22Z nisstyre: also not sure if you can break down actors into LC
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2019-07-11T05:14:15Z Zipheir: Also: 'On the other hand, [functional programmers] seem perfectly willing to call a state transformer a "value" when it is put in their own favourite syntax and dressed up with a buzz word like "monad"'
2019-07-11T05:14:26Z Zipheir: "Get off my lawn, functional hooligans!"
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2019-07-11T05:17:04Z nisstyre: Zipheir: omg I just saw that stack overflow answer
2019-07-11T05:17:16Z nisstyre: bringing modal logic into this seems a bit....
2019-07-11T05:17:24Z nisstyre: well let's just say I can't tell if this is a joke or not
2019-07-11T05:18:42Z nisstyre: ok actually it's not that bad
2019-07-11T05:19:18Z Zipheir: I really appreciate his covering the history of the idea, just not the implicit 'you kids are idiots' of the postscript.
2019-07-11T05:19:38Z nisstyre: I'm surprised there was no mention of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus_%28morning_star%29
2019-07-11T05:20:04Z nisstyre: this part specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus_%28morning_star%29#%22Hesperus_is_Phosphorus%22
2019-07-11T05:20:12Z nisstyre: it's like a classic "puzzle" in analytic philosophy
2019-07-11T05:21:08Z nisstyre: I suppose you'd want to bring in the a priori / a posteriori / synthetic / analytic distinctions into this
2019-07-11T05:23:06Z nisstyre: basically you can replace "Hesperus" with "Phosphorus" but it's not known a priori that the two are equivalent
2019-07-11T05:23:32Z nisstyre: so, does referential transparency apply when you don't "know" two terms are equivalent?
2019-07-11T05:25:17Z nisstyre: also I think he's talking about indexicals when he mentions "contexts"
2019-07-11T05:25:19Z nisstyre: to use some jargon
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2019-07-11T05:26:35Z Riastradh: In modern functional programming usage, `referential transparency' is that you can prove if x reduces to y then you can substitute y for x where it appears, subject to lexical constraints.
2019-07-11T05:27:08Z nisstyre: so it assumes a term-rewriting system?
2019-07-11T05:27:42Z Riastradh: If the implication is not provable, then you have referential opacity instead.
2019-07-11T05:28:28Z Riastradh: nisstyre: Pick your favourite notion of `reduces to'.  I'm not getting involved in semantic fights about `values' in contradistinction to `expressions' and `denotations' at a philosophical level.
2019-07-11T05:28:30Z nisstyre: Riastradh: so the Hesperus/Phosphorus example would be "referentially opaque" because it was discovered through scientific investigation that the two are equivalent?
2019-07-11T05:28:32Z nisstyre: IDK
2019-07-11T05:28:51Z nisstyre: I'm not really being serious about this
2019-07-11T05:29:06Z Riastradh: English does not generally exhibit referential transparency in the sense that the substitution doesn't yield the same meaning.
2019-07-11T05:29:20Z nisstyre: that's exactly true
2019-07-11T05:29:26Z nisstyre: you can change the sense of a word
2019-07-11T05:29:29Z nisstyre: but not the reference
2019-07-11T05:30:20Z nisstyre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_and_reference
2019-07-11T05:32:24Z ski: yea, i mentioned the post partly because i thought the history was interesting. and partly because i find the common vagueness, ambiguity and confusion about terms like "pure"/"purity" or "purely functional", and "referential transparency", not the least among functional programmers themselves (myself included), to be unsatisfactory. (perhaps there are better suggestions for useful (if any) meanings of those terms.) the post at least tries to open a debate
2019-07-11T05:32:31Z nisstyre: so a++ and a = a + 1 may refer to the same object
2019-07-11T05:32:35Z nisstyre: but they do not mean the same thing
2019-07-11T05:32:53Z nisstyre: they don't have the same sense
2019-07-11T05:32:53Z ski: that being said, there are parts of his argument that i don't follow, and other's i'm not sure i agree with
2019-07-11T05:33:12Z nisstyre: (at least if you agree with Frege)
2019-07-11T05:34:43Z nisstyre: ski: I think it's armchair philosophy
2019-07-11T05:35:09Z nisstyre: not necessarily a bad thing but shouldn't be taken too seriously
2019-07-11T05:36:04Z ski: (iiuc, his objection to the `(lambda (store) ..store..)' being substituted for `x++' would be that the former is a denotation, while the latter is a (source) expression. if we think of a denotational semantics as a compiler (whose output is being interpreted by a mathematician), then the former referent would be described be an target language expression (the `(lambda ...)' expression))
2019-07-11T05:36:21Z nisstyre: the Strachey paper looks interesting though
2019-07-11T05:37:09Z Riastradh: ski: The substitutability is in the meta-language of the denotational semantics vs the object-language of C.  Obviously one a term in one language is not substitutable in the other.
2019-07-11T05:38:07Z Riastradh: I.e., read it as meaning-of[[f(x++, x++)]] = combination(meaning-of([[f]]), list(meaning-of([[x++]]), meaning-of([[x++]]))), where you can validly do CSE on the meaning-of([[x++]]).
2019-07-11T05:38:31Z Riastradh: But it's not valid to do CSE on the x++ in C.
2019-07-11T05:40:59Z Riastradh: It seems to me that Reddy's objection is that the whippersnappers who call themselves functional programmers today inadequately honour Reddy's idols by citing them and mimicking their language verbatim, as if the language of that branch of philosophy sprang forth in a form of perfection from the earth-shattering towering intellects.
2019-07-11T05:41:40Z nisstyre: anyone who has studied the history of analytic philosophy knows that it's anything but consistent
2019-07-11T05:41:47Z ski: e.g. it appears to me that "Edinburgh has been the capital of Scotland since 1999." being interpreted as "Scotland has had a capital since 1999 and that capital is Edinburgh." is using something like Russel's theory of (definite) descriptions, which i'm doubtful of being a useful enough handling of presuppositions
2019-07-11T05:42:10Z ski: nisstyre : possibly
2019-07-11T05:42:47Z nisstyre: Russell's paper opened up a huge debate and caused a lot of people to write more papers
2019-07-11T05:42:59Z nisstyre: but I wouldn't say it's perfect by itself
2019-07-11T05:43:05Z Riastradh: I don't like the terms `purity' or `referential transparency' myself, but I don't like `purity' because it's emotionally and ideologically loaded (which is not helpful to convey that it just means effects written on the label) and I don't like `referential transparency' because it's kind of opaque.
2019-07-11T05:43:07Z nisstyre: like, citing it is fine
2019-07-11T05:43:11Z Riastradh: Not because some kids are on my lawn.
2019-07-11T05:43:18Z nisstyre: but you can't just take it at face value
2019-07-11T05:44:06Z ski nods to nisstyre
2019-07-11T05:45:07Z nisstyre: the tricky part about that paper is that there wasn't really a good way of expressing any of the ideas in formal notation yet
2019-07-11T05:45:08Z ski: Riastradh : perhaps so
2019-07-11T05:45:08Z nisstyre: https://www3.nd.edu/~jspeaks/courses/2007-8/43904/_HANDOUTS/russell-on-denoting.pdf
2019-07-11T05:45:30Z nisstyre: you'll notice the entire thing is written with pretty much no formal symbolism
2019-07-11T05:46:07Z nisstyre: except really basic predicate logic
2019-07-11T05:46:37Z ski: informal comes before formal. at least in the heads of the people dreaming (i mean that rather seriously) it up, if not on paper
2019-07-11T05:47:26Z nisstyre: yep, it just makes understanding the paper a bit harder
2019-07-11T05:47:34Z Riastradh: What!  You mean mathematics didn't come from Russell & Whitehead?  There was mathematics before it was presented in purely formal notation?
2019-07-11T05:48:01Z nisstyre: lol
2019-07-11T05:48:21Z ski recalls really liking some of Frege's descriptions of propositions, and functions vs. contexts
2019-07-11T05:48:26Z nisstyre: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/frege-theorem/notes.html
2019-07-11T05:48:29Z nisstyre: Frege's notation is awful
2019-07-11T05:48:35Z ski: (the guy even talks about variable-binding macros)
2019-07-11T05:48:49Z ski: agreed :) i was talking about his informal descriptions
2019-07-11T05:48:52Z nisstyre: I guess it's not a fair comparison though
2019-07-11T05:48:58Z nisstyre: since we all know the modern notation
2019-07-11T05:49:25Z ski: Riastradh : hehe
2019-07-11T05:51:04Z ski: (oh, and the abstract syntax that his concrete syntax depicts)
2019-07-11T05:51:16Z nisstyre: here we go https://www.uvm.edu/~lderosse/courses/lang/Russell(1905).pdf
2019-07-11T05:51:18Z nisstyre: that's the original
2019-07-11T05:53:32Z nisstyre: ski: reading this https://stackoverflow.com/a/11740176/903589, the first thing that pops into my mind is "Can we denote non-existent things then?"
2019-07-11T05:53:38Z nisstyre: i.e. unicorns, round squares, etc
2019-07-11T05:54:09Z ski: "From Frege to Gödel: A Source Book in Mathematical Logic", edited by Jean van Heijenoort in 1967,1977 has many interesting original articles by various logicians
2019-07-11T05:55:22Z ski: nisstyre : there's something called "impossible worlds semantics" (?), i think. i'm not sure how sensible it is (after having read a little about it)
2019-07-11T05:55:43Z nisstyre: yeah that's where I was going with this
2019-07-11T05:55:50Z nisstyre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_realism
2019-07-11T05:56:20Z nisstyre: bringing it back to programming language semantics
2019-07-11T05:56:30Z nisstyre: it means that you would have to specify *which world* you're referring to
2019-07-11T05:56:41Z nisstyre: all so you can understand your program's meaning
2019-07-11T06:01:08Z nisstyre: it does raise a lot of interesting questions though
2019-07-11T06:01:16Z nisstyre: thanks for the links ski
2019-07-11T06:06:19Z ski . o O ( <http://conal.net/blog/posts/is-haskell-a-purely-functional-language>,<http://conal.net/blog/posts/notions-of-purity-in-haskell>,<https://github.com/conal/talk-2014-bayhac-denotational-design> by conal )
2019-07-11T06:06:52Z ski nods
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2019-07-11T06:44:14Z andrei-n: Hello.  If I have read SICP, is there a fastest way to read HTDP?  Perhaps there are chapters that I don't have to do 100%, and only read?  What's your experience?
2019-07-11T06:48:39Z tolja: What's the rush
2019-07-11T06:53:13Z andrei-n: tolja, What's your opinion?
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2019-07-11T06:55:30Z tolja: I haven't done both, so i can't really say
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2019-07-11T07:18:58Z andrei-n: tolja, well, thanks anyway...  You reminded me that if you really want to achieve something you should not be lazy.
2019-07-11T07:19:32Z tolja: And speed comes with a cost
2019-07-11T07:20:10Z tolja: I've gotten most out of sicp by doing the exercises, not by just reading
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2019-07-11T07:32:50Z ski . o O ( <https://www.norvig.com/21-days.html> )
2019-07-11T07:35:39Z Zipheir: I love that essay.
2019-07-11T07:41:30Z ski: (otoh, one must prioritize, perhaps after some soul-searching, appeal to intuition, which scripture would be more helpful to study, contemplate, and try out in practice, next ..)
2019-07-11T07:47:04Z andrei-n: ski, People recommended me to do HTDP when I told that I'm bad at organizing complex programs, so for me it should be the right thing...
2019-07-11T07:47:40Z Zipheir: Everyone is bad at organizing complex programs.  Solution: write simple programs!
2019-07-11T07:49:06Z ski: (Caveat: it's hard to write simple programs.)
2019-07-11T07:49:10Z aeth: and if the problem is inheritly complex, write libraries
2019-07-11T07:49:24Z ski: andrei-n : then do try ?
2019-07-11T07:49:38Z ski . o O ( "complicated" vs. "complex" )
2019-07-11T07:53:37Z andrei-n: Zipheir, but with only simple programs you will never write nice things like shells, compilers and operating systems...
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2019-07-11T08:15:20Z weinholt: in Bisqwit's latest NES password cracking video there is suddenly Scheme code @ 15:46  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tUtO_2BknQ
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2019-07-11T08:25:51Z z0d: cool. not necessary nice to read Scheme code though :->
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2019-07-11T08:57:23Z sudden scheme code
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2019-07-11T09:13:22Z hugo: Does anyone have any experience with different FUSE libraries in different scheme dialects?
2019-07-11T09:13:40Z hugo: I'm working on a Mediawiki-filesystem, but have yet to decide upon a language.
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2019-07-11T09:40:21Z mdhughes: How to teach yourself programming in 21 days: https://abstrusegoose.com/249
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2019-07-11T10:38:05Z amz3: hugo: mediawiki-filesystem? what will that look like?
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2019-07-11T11:14:51Z kori: what's the way to do a let like this? (let [((a b c) (1 2 3))] <...>)
2019-07-11T11:14:58Z kori: i.e., a is assigned to 1, b to 2, c to 3
2019-07-11T11:16:00Z ecraven: kori: (let-values (((a b c) (values 1 2 3))) ...)
2019-07-11T11:16:11Z kori: ecraven: thanks :)
2019-07-11T11:16:43Z hugo: amz3: Pages maps to files, cattegories to directories
2019-07-11T11:16:54Z hugo: I have a C++ prototype available here: https://git.lysator.liu.se/hugo/mediawiki-fs
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2019-07-11T12:42:43Z erkin: andrei-n: Complex programs are made up of simple subprograms.
2019-07-11T12:43:21Z erkin: But not overcomplicating your code isn't an easy task.
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2019-07-11T14:15:26Z amz3: hugo: ok
2019-07-11T14:16:05Z amz3: hugo: which root category will you pick? there is really no official wikipedia category hierarchy
2019-07-11T14:16:28Z amz3: in the sense, there is many category hierarchy
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2019-07-11T14:34:57Z hugo: amz3: I'm not too sure. I mostly plan to use it against my computer-clubs internal wiki, which has WAY less pages
2019-07-11T14:35:16Z amz3: ok
2019-07-11T14:36:14Z jcowan: An exception isn't really an effect unless you know what it is.  Haskell has a thing for catching exceptions in pure code, but you don't get a useful value, it's basically just a non-local transfer of control.
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2019-07-11T14:49:47Z amz3: what would a good and fun name for scheme implementations comparator? It would be something in the spirit of banking, assurance, phone etc... comparators that you may find around the web when you want to compare several things
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2019-07-11T15:56:52Z Zipheir: amz3: Scheme Connoisseur if you really want that executive flavor.
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2019-07-11T16:12:32Z Riastradh: amz3: scheme evaluator
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2019-07-11T16:22:44Z ggole: Actuary
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2019-07-11T16:40:22Z ski: jcowan : well, depends on whether you use `Maybe'/`MaybeT', or `Either'/`ExceptT' ?
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2019-07-11T16:42:03Z ski: (i don't understand the "isn't really an effect unless you know what it is" part)
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2019-07-11T17:12:31Z Zipheir: If I'm using an idiom (applicative functor) interface for a library, what are some useful Schemely utility idiom functions I could provide?
2019-07-11T17:14:31Z Zipheir: A `sequence' (list[idiom α] -> idiom[list[α]]) seems like a good one, but I'm not sure about lifting functions.  Haskell's `liftA2' seems creaky in a language where variadic procedures are er, idiomatic.
2019-07-11T17:14:33Z jcowan: ski: Backtracking:  Why are exceptions an effect?  Because which exception you get in an expression like 1/0 + throw(...) depends on the order of evaluation of the arguments to +.  Haskell only guarantees in this situation that you get one of the exceptions, not which one.  But if you write a catcher that catches an exception without revealing anything about the exception, your catcher is pure.
2019-07-11T17:15:28Z jcowan: Zipheir: see https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ContextsCowan.md
2019-07-11T17:15:46Z Zipheir: jcowan: Yes, I've been referring to that for inspiration :)
2019-07-11T17:16:40Z jcowan: Okay.  If you think of more idiom-* functions, let me know (or functor-* or monad-*)
2019-07-11T17:18:04Z Zipheir: Thanks, will do.  I really like the Contexts library thus far.
2019-07-11T17:20:03Z ski: jcowan : oh, you're talking about *those* exceptions. and yes, if you have local side-effects, then then those are not detectable from the outside (so "pure"). but they're still side-effects, on this inside, in the (internal) code that has them as an aspect of its interface)
2019-07-11T17:20:49Z ski was thinking of `Maybe'/`MaybeT', or `Either'/`ExceptT', when "exceptions" were mentioned
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2019-07-11T17:22:16Z jcowan nods
2019-07-11T17:22:38Z jcowan: As I also said, allocation is impure in the routine that implements it, pure in the routine that demands it.
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2019-07-11T18:13:59Z amz3: Riastradh: Zipheir: I prefer scheme evaluator, I will think about it.. tx for the input.
2019-07-11T18:16:17Z ski: jcowan : hm, by that, you mean that the effect can be localized, unless a reference to the allocated object escapes ?
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2019-07-11T18:20:48Z ski: (anyway, the exceptions you were talking about, with `1/0 + throw(...)', is really a *side*-effect (just as pattern-matching failure which isn't caught by a latter pattern is, and also indeed nontermination .. and perhaps also certain kinds of platform-dependence (cf. mobile code)). it's just that these are relatively benign side-effects, that can't be "observed" in some sense (with caveats))
2019-07-11T18:21:32Z ski: (you could avoid them, if you have a total language, like Agda, and, i think, Idris ?)
2019-07-11T18:23:21Z ski: (hmm .. that `*.md' page displays completely blank for me)
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2019-07-11T18:33:10Z jcowan: ski: No, I mean something like this:  consider a Scheme function multiply whose type is Fixnum -> Fixnum -> Integer.  If the result is another fixnum, no memory allocation is done (on reasonable implementations).  But if the result is a bignum, then a primitive memory allocator must be called to hold the bignum's bigits, sign, etc.  Nevertheless multiply is considered pure.
2019-07-11T18:33:11Z Zipheir: amz3: I was totally kidding about `Scheme Connoisseur'.
2019-07-11T18:33:36Z jcowan: To the primitive allocator, the call is anything but pure: it has to change all sorts of things in the allocation arena (exactly what depends on the algorithm).
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2019-07-11T19:18:58Z amz3: Zipheir: no worries, it might also work, evaluator is somewhat an overloaded word especially in scheme (eval vs. apply) on the other hand, when I read "Connoisseur" I think "mustache" and "tall hat" which might be a good idea for the graphical aspect
2019-07-11T19:19:29Z amz3: Need more testing, I managed to run a minimal srfi-168 test with chibi wasm build
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2019-07-11T19:38:27Z jcowan: amz3: On node, or in the browser?
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2019-07-11T19:55:34Z amz3: browser
2019-07-11T19:55:53Z amz3: jcowan: firefox exactly
2019-07-11T19:56:06Z jcowan nods
2019-07-11T19:56:10Z Zipheir: 'when I read "Connoisseur" I think "mustache" and "tall hat"...'  Ah, I do like the smoky finish of a Larceny lambda with my pinot noir.
2019-07-11T19:56:11Z amz3: btw I noticed that chromium is little faster than ff regarding wasm
2019-07-11T20:00:59Z jcowan: It shouldn't make much difference: wasm is essentially an emulator for a nonexistent machine that is AOT compiled.
2019-07-11T20:01:14Z jcowan: I mean the wasm code is
2019-07-11T20:01:20Z jcowan: not the wasm emulator
2019-07-11T20:04:02Z amz3 nods
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2019-07-11T20:26:22Z wdouglass: Hello. I'm using s7 scheme for a project, and I have a question about their load function implementation (i may end up submitting a patch if my assumptions are correct). I can't seem to find a mailing list or anything for s7 (or the snd project), is it rude for me to email the author directly?
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2019-07-11T20:35:22Z wasamasa: wdouglass: I thought that's normal for a single-man effort
2019-07-11T20:35:43Z wasamasa: wdouglass: I'd expect there to be a CCRMA mailing list though
2019-07-11T20:36:09Z wdouglass: there's a few authors meantioned in the .h file, i just wasn't sure who to contact. I did find the CCRMA mailing list, i think i'll start by posting there. thanks
2019-07-11T20:36:47Z wasamasa: I've posted to one of their mailing lists to get help for a related project, ChucK
2019-07-11T20:36:58Z wasamasa: and surprisingly enough, one or two people replied
2019-07-11T20:37:21Z wasamasa: snd would be another candidate, s7 is closely related to it
2019-07-11T20:37:53Z wasamasa: https://cm-mail.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/cmdist
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2019-07-11T20:38:06Z wasamasa: unfortunately the archive isn't public
2019-07-11T20:38:24Z wdouglass: yeah, i just found and posted to that list. I figured somebody on here would be able to point me in the right direction, thanks!
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2019-07-11T20:43:52Z wasamasa: best of luck with your s7 project
2019-07-11T20:43:58Z wdouglass: thanks
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2019-07-11T21:40:37Z Zipheir: wasamasa: s7 is related to ChucK?
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2019-07-12T00:24:27Z ski: jcowan : *nod*. but those are implementation details. i suppose one could possibly view those in terms of "local side-effects", though ?
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2019-07-12T01:43:27Z jcowan: ski: Just so. Because access to the arena is sealed off from `multiply`, it's the same situation as the exceptions.
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2019-07-12T05:30:43Z wasamasa: Zipheir: same uni working on it
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2019-07-12T14:33:19Z erkin: I wonder
2019-07-12T14:33:58Z erkin: If it's possible to have () (empty, unquoted combination) expand to something.
2019-07-12T14:35:40Z rain1: no, it's an error. a scheme could be edited to so that it expands to something though
2019-07-12T14:37:05Z dTal: why would that be useful?
2019-07-12T14:43:57Z rain1: it's not useful
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2019-07-12T14:50:20Z dTal: is there a benefit to using an "object system" instead of just using closures for everything?
2019-07-12T14:51:44Z dTal: or relatedly, what's the closure-y way of making multiple functions share state?
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2019-07-12T14:55:09Z pjb: dTal: yes, there is.  With closures, you need to define everything in the same lexical scope, and you cannot modify anything (change a method, add or remove one).  With an object system, you can spread the definition of the objects or classes over several (mutating) toplevel forms, and you can correct the definition.
2019-07-12T14:55:33Z pjb: dTal: so using closures is more like casting an object, while with an object system, it's more like modeling and sculpting it.
2019-07-12T14:56:18Z pjb: There's also the case of multi-methods (dispatch methods on multiple arguments).  This would be difficult to make an intersection of closures…
2019-07-12T14:57:21Z jcowan: "Procedures are just poor man's objects, but then again objects are just poor man's procedures".
2019-07-12T14:57:30Z dTal: mutation and top-level forms? Is this a good thing?
2019-07-12T14:58:07Z dTal: jcowan: yes I'm trying to get my head around this equivalence
2019-07-12T14:58:23Z dTal: I'm quite comfortable with OO in Python, but I never reach for it in Scheme
2019-07-12T14:58:38Z jcowan: The mapping is:  constructor:procedure call, instance variable:local variable
2019-07-12T14:58:39Z dTal: but there are some things I can't quite see how to do without it
2019-07-12T14:59:21Z dTal: but what's the mapping to methods, in the plural?
2019-07-12T14:59:50Z Riastradh: dTal: `object system' (or `object-oriented') is a distraction in terms.  What really matters is that you can write logic that is parametrized not by inputs but also by how to do some primitive operations on the inputs.  For example, compute modular exponentiation given a base, an exponent, and a way to multiply and square elements of the space; or compute the average of a collection, given the
2019-07-12T14:59:56Z jcowan: The usual Lisp approach is multimethods, which are not in any class, but discriminate on all their arguments.
2019-07-12T14:59:56Z Riastradh: collection and a way to apply a procedure to every element in it.
2019-07-12T15:00:10Z ggole: Have the 'constructor' return a tuple of closures.
2019-07-12T15:00:50Z jcowan: Also possible.  Or what is often done: have some conventions about calling the procedure (one arg = getter, two args = setter)
2019-07-12T15:00:52Z dTal: ggole: yes, but this sounds horrifying to actually use, since the resulting closures will not be explicitly named
2019-07-12T15:01:11Z Riastradh: The fact that you can express records using procedures that dispatch on a method label, (foo 'get-x) vs (foo 'set-x newx), is of little consequence unless you want to express an algorithm that is itself meaningfully parametrized by a way to get-x and to set-x.
2019-07-12T15:01:22Z jcowan: Name them yourself with define, or write a macro to give them all names along the lines of define-record-type, but with a body.
2019-07-12T15:01:37Z ggole: You could use a table instead, at a modest cost in space.
2019-07-12T15:02:55Z jcowan: ggole: What kind of table?
2019-07-12T15:03:27Z ggole: Whatever is convenient in the code using the 'object'?
2019-07-12T15:03:46Z ggole: An alist would probably be fine for a couple of entries.
2019-07-12T15:04:23Z ggole: There are far more efficient encodings, of course.
2019-07-12T15:05:08Z dTal: hm that's not too terrible I guess, with suitable defintiions
2019-07-12T15:06:27Z dTal: that's quite close in spirit to what Python does
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2019-07-12T15:11:15Z dTal tries it out
2019-07-12T15:13:19Z mdhughes: Of course you can easily make a closure-object that has add-method and add-field actions, and then you can build it at runtime, just like any other object system.
2019-07-12T15:16:06Z pjb: For example, when modeling a OO system (think UML), you have elements that don't belong to the classes, but that are implemented by adding slots to the classes (eg. associations, depending on the multiplicities).  So using CLOS and the MOP, I can define macros to define associations that will change the definition of the involved classes to add the slots and methods required to implement the association.  Again, notice how this 
2019-07-12T15:16:06Z pjb: more than one class, so this couldn't be done with closures.
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2019-07-12T15:18:15Z mdhughes: You don't need a macro to do that. Once you have closure-objects, you can build all of self's OO system on top of it. Prototypes can point to parent classes.
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2019-07-12T15:45:30Z jcowan: I've been thinking about building Cecil's object system, which is more flexible than JS but more limiting than Self.  You can't change a parent to just any object, you can only gate whether or not something is a parent based on a predicate.
2019-07-12T15:45:48Z jcowan: (multiple inheritance, to be sure)
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2019-07-12T15:57:37Z mdhughes: In practice all I ever need is a couple handfuls of classes with single inheritance, so less than JS is fine.
2019-07-12T15:58:53Z mdhughes: srfi-99 is almost a good-enough object system, but calling superclass methods is more annoying.
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2019-07-12T16:25:08Z jcowan: I personally dislike SRFI-99's multiple inheritance quite a bit.
2019-07-12T16:25:31Z jcowan: It bumps up against hygiene, for one thing.
2019-07-12T16:28:12Z jcowan: Most of the time, hands-off inheritance is simply unnecessary.  The same underlying object is used to support both sets and bags in my implementation of the SRFI, and almost all the exposed methods like set-contains? and bag-contains? simply check the internal flag and defer to sob-contains? (sob = set or bag).  Only the add methods have to differentiate.
2019-07-12T16:28:40Z jcowan: (The underlying implementation is a hash table whose key is the set element and whose value is the number of times it appears in the sob.  This is bounded by 1 for sets and not bounded for bags.
2019-07-12T16:29:13Z jcowan: So any sum type like this where you know in advance what the cases are does not require multiple-inheritance machinery.
2019-07-12T16:29:24Z jcowan: (A few defining macros would have helped, certainly.)
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2019-07-12T16:52:09Z adu: jcowan: although it's not scheme, I think the best "record" implementation I've ever seen is Python2's newtuple
2019-07-12T16:52:22Z jcowan checks it out
2019-07-12T16:52:37Z adu: not to be confused with Python3's NewTuple, obviously
2019-07-12T16:53:41Z adu: T = newtuple("pair", "fst snd")
2019-07-12T16:53:51Z mdhughes: dataclasses you mean? I was annoyed they require typing.
2019-07-12T16:54:02Z jcowan: Unfortunately Dr. G can't tell the difference.  Do you have an URL?  All I find is uses of newtuple as a variable.
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2019-07-12T16:54:49Z adu: mdhughes: python has on the order of several hundred type systems, among them are python2-newtuple, python3-newtuple, python3-dataclasses, sqlalchemy, django-models, etc.
2019-07-12T16:54:51Z Riastradh: Constructing names in a program based on parsing strings at run-time is evil...
2019-07-12T16:55:26Z adu: https://docs.python.org/2/library/collections.html#collections.namedtuple
2019-07-12T16:55:29Z mdhughes: https://mdhughes.tech/2018/06/27/python-3-7/
2019-07-12T16:55:46Z adu: and my brain is slowly turning into jello, I meant namedtuple
2019-07-12T16:58:03Z adu: https://docs.python.org/3/library/typing.html?highlight=typing#typing.NamedTuple
2019-07-12T16:58:11Z Urfin: What's the right place to ask for help building Gerbil? They don't seem to have a mailing list
2019-07-12T17:00:02Z mdhughes: Riastradh: All of Python is based on strings at run-time, it's an interpreter. Evil, whatever. It's fun!
2019-07-12T17:00:54Z Riastradh: `technically correct' does not imply `conducive to practical use'
2019-07-12T17:01:34Z Riastradh: (dispatching method names based on string equality at run-time is also wrong and makes large Python programs painful to read)
2019-07-12T17:04:39Z mdhughes: What, you think people do getattr(foo, "bar") on the regular? foo.bar is rather more common, even if it's the exact same thing.
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2019-07-12T17:07:20Z Riastradh: No, I mean the semantics of foo.bar or foo.bar() in Python is wrong because the meaning of the name `bar' (which is what you look up in the documentation, &c.) depends on the run-time value of foo -- you have to run the program, not just read the program, to determine where to look to find out what the author meant by foo.bar().
2019-07-12T17:09:00Z Riastradh: When it's uniquely named, you can grep for that unique string, but when it's something generic like `add', you have to do flow analysis by abstract interpretation of the program to find what method will be called.
2019-07-12T17:10:33Z mdhughes: And nobody cares. It's called duck typing: You tell an object to "quack", and it quacks, so it's either a duck or good enough replacement.
2019-07-12T17:11:19Z mdhughes: The virtue here is you can make an interface by just saying what messages you respond to. Any object that responds is following that interface.
2019-07-12T17:11:23Z Riastradh: There are two standard ways to resolve this: 1. make method names themselves lexically scoped (like T), 2. use static types and make the method namespace part of the type.
2019-07-12T17:11:57Z mdhughes: Those are the techniques of static typing, but Python isn't statically typed, it isn't compiled.
2019-07-12T17:12:01Z Riastradh: mdhughes: That would be reasonable if the interfaces were themselves lexically scoped so that you could be sure _which_ interface you meant that happens to be spelled A-D-D.  But they're not.  There's a single global namespace for all these `interfaces'.
2019-07-12T17:12:13Z Riastradh: (1) does not involve static types.
2019-07-12T17:12:43Z mdhughes: You need to just *let go*. It's fine. If you call quack() on a dog that got in somehow, it'll throw an exception and you'll handle that and move on.
2019-07-12T17:13:45Z mdhughes: Looping back around, that's one nice thing with closure-objects, they behave the same way. You pass a message, doesn't matter if it's the known class or a mock or something completely different, if it handles the same message symbol.
2019-07-12T17:13:47Z Riastradh: I don't have an ideological investment in ducks, but I do have experience working in large programs in many languages, and `just handle an exception' is not a way to read, understand, and audit large software systems.
2019-07-12T17:14:33Z Riastradh: Static _scope_ is not the same as static _types_, and the two can be appreciated independently.
2019-07-12T17:15:02Z mdhughes: Yes it is. It's just not the waterfall way. You don't need to make big systems as giant rigid bodies that shatter with one error. You can make them be loose swarms of fault-tolerant parts.
2019-07-12T17:16:00Z mdhughes: I've worked on gigantic systems and little systems over the decades, and it's just so much nicer loose.
2019-07-12T17:16:04Z Riastradh: Well, have fun debating your hackernews blogs, but I'mma go back to doing some real engineering now.
2019-07-12T17:18:06Z mdhughes: Oookay, that's a weird thing to call any of this. I'll take some drugs and do fantasy engineering, then. https://www.xkcd.com/353/
2019-07-12T17:20:28Z mdhughes: Scheme's my Python these days, as it has the virtue of being potentially just as dynamic (animal 'quack) but compiling faster and no GIL. But the principle's the same, it's not Java.
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2019-07-12T18:09:57Z Zipheir: Also, Scheme has the virtue of having a sane idea of scope, as opposed to Guido's toy.
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2019-07-12T18:22:26Z dieggsy: there's also thisg https://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/04/tail-recursion-elimination.html
2019-07-12T18:22:26Z dieggsy: which
2019-07-12T18:22:36Z dieggsy: ...i don't really get
2019-07-12T18:23:35Z dieggsy: especially the bits about '1000 recursions is good enough' and 'well i don't _like_ recursion' essentially
2019-07-12T18:24:10Z mdhughes: Scheme modules are pretty much isomorphic to Python modules, and scope is lexical (but only functions introduce a new scope).
2019-07-12T18:27:56Z mdhughes: Guido was very clear about his principle, so maybe read it again? He valued a stack trace on exception. Python's not a LISP, and more languages don't do TCE than do. BUT: There are multiple ways to add TCO, from running Stackless or doing CPS.
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2019-07-12T18:31:09Z lambdapanda: hi! I'm wondering if there is an IRC channel for discussing programming paradigms in scheme
2019-07-12T18:32:31Z Zipheir: Try #scheme?
2019-07-12T18:32:58Z gwatt: which is this channel
2019-07-12T18:32:58Z lambdapanda: lol I just wasn't sure if discussing it here is allowed
2019-07-12T18:33:20Z gnomon: mdhughes, oh this post again.  So, to very quickly summarize the rebuttal: point #1 is not an argument against proper TCE, it's a (correct) argument that stack traces are simultaneously useful and not good enough.  They're a crutch, but a useful learning tool, like the Bohr-Rutherford atom model.  Move on.  Point #2 is correct and an argument in favour of implementing TCE everywhere.  Point #3 is a point
2019-07-12T18:33:26Z gnomon: about pedagogy, and a useful one.
2019-07-12T18:33:58Z mdhughes: It's also a decade old, and from a guy who's no longer BDFL.
2019-07-12T18:34:01Z gnomon: mdhughes, the rest of the article is about grappling with the implementation difficulties that Python has created for itself
2019-07-12T18:34:06Z gnomon: Right.
2019-07-12T18:34:19Z gnomon: Oh, sorry, dieggsy brought it up rather than you.
2019-07-12T18:34:20Z mdhughes: And blame dieggsy, he dug it up.
2019-07-12T18:34:25Z gnomon: jinx
2019-07-12T18:34:30Z mdhughes: ^
2019-07-12T18:36:53Z dieggsy: sorry if i brought up a sensitive topic? i don't actually know that much about programming language implementation at all
2019-07-12T18:36:58Z dieggsy: ....nor am i _that_ experienced a programmer, generally
2019-07-12T18:37:22Z gnomon: dieggsy, no no, it's not sensitive, it's just... very, very, very VERY VERY familiar  :D
2019-07-12T18:37:58Z gnomon: No apologies necessary, rather I'm sorry if my response was a bit strongly worded.
2019-07-12T18:38:32Z Zipheir: Hah.
2019-07-12T18:39:03Z lambdapanda: I have a programming paradigm question: if you're writing a purely functional game of life in scheme, how would you represent the cells and the grid? I keep finding myself using OOP patterns because my brain is stuck in that way of thinking
2019-07-12T18:39:40Z Zipheir: Oh, Graham Hutton had a nice functional Life implementation in Haskell.  Let me dig it up.
2019-07-12T18:39:54Z mdhughes: If you do need it to be pure functional, you pass a world state in and get one back out.
2019-07-12T18:40:25Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's the easiest method that comes to mind.
2019-07-12T18:40:32Z mdhughes: A lot of Scheme is not *that* functional, and fiddling with local objects is fine.
2019-07-12T18:40:57Z Zipheir: It depends.
2019-07-12T18:41:05Z mdhughes: Also this is a nice book about the more functional versions: http://landoflisp.com
2019-07-12T18:41:12Z Zipheir: I mean, on the Scheme programmer.
2019-07-12T18:41:19Z lambdapanda: that's what I was thinking, but the world (the grid) would have to be infinite
2019-07-12T18:42:24Z mdhughes: "infinite" in that you expand it constantly, sure. I'd store it as a hashtable, keeping track of outer bounds that've ever been modified.
2019-07-12T18:43:01Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: Hutton's version does just what mdhughes mentions.  It's a tail-call function `life' that calls a world-update function `nextgen' on the current state.
2019-07-12T18:43:02Z lambdapanda: mdhughes: but that leads to serious performance issues as the world grows, compared to OOP implementations
2019-07-12T18:43:07Z mdhughes: But there's other options, a list of chunks (maybe 16x16 each) where you can keep adding chunks.
2019-07-12T18:43:20Z lambdapanda: I'll look up Hutton's version
2019-07-12T18:43:57Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: I tried, it's not on the web, but in his book "Programming In Haskell".  I think I can paste a copy I have, one sec.
2019-07-12T18:44:17Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: that's awesome, thanks a lot
2019-07-12T18:45:06Z lambdapanda: if you have other book recommendations for FP I'd appreciate it
2019-07-12T18:45:06Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: https://paste.debian.net/1091378/
2019-07-12T18:45:20Z mdhughes: It's not so much OOP, as just imperative. Mutating a global array is the fastest, easiest thing. Not always the cleanest, but for a big structure it's probably saner.
2019-07-12T18:46:08Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: This is _the_ classic of FP, imho: https://usi-pl.github.io/lc/sp-2015/doc/Bird_Wadler.%20Introduction%20to%20Functional%20Programming.1ed.pdf
2019-07-12T18:47:27Z mdhughes: SICP is *THE* classic. And The Little Schemer.
2019-07-12T18:47:32Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: thanks for the code and book link, I'll go through them
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2019-07-12T18:47:50Z Zipheir: In fact, SRFI-41 refers to SICP as "the classic text on computer science" and to Bird & Wadler as "the classic text on functional programming". https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-41/srfi-41.html
2019-07-12T18:48:05Z Zipheir: Yeah, all the Little books are good.
2019-07-12T18:48:17Z lambdapanda: mdhughes: I read SICP and I enjoyed it so much. I hoped it would have placed more focus on FP tho. Perhaps I should reread it haha
2019-07-12T18:48:28Z lambdapanda: I guess I should get the little books
2019-07-12T18:48:38Z lambdapanda: for some reason I assumed the little schemer is unnecessary if you read SICP
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2019-07-12T18:49:31Z Zipheir: It probably won't teach you anything you don't know, but, as GJS says in the preface, it's like a book of études in recursion.
2019-07-12T18:49:34Z lambdapanda: I guess part of the problem is that cellular automata in general are easier to reason about if you think in OOP terms (at least for me it feels more natural), since it's all about change in state over time
2019-07-12T18:50:08Z dieggsy: i've done alot of scheme by just figuring it out as i go but never actually got around to finishing SICP (or even doing half i think), so i'm trying to start over now
2019-07-12T18:50:21Z Zipheir: IIUC it's one of the first things OOP was applied to, so, yes.
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2019-07-12T18:50:50Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: yeah framing it like that makes sense I guess. I definitely need more practice hehehe
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2019-07-12T18:51:18Z Zipheir: Hell, OOP makes total sense when we're dealing with systems that we can only (currently) model as interacting little components.
2019-07-12T18:51:30Z mdhughes: All my CA back in the day were assembly poking screen memory for storage.
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2019-07-12T18:52:15Z lambdapanda: dieggsy: I had to attempt SICP 3 or 4 times. Each time I forced myself to start from the beginning each time. It's one of the best books I read
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2019-07-12T18:53:17Z lambdapanda: well at the moment I think a book on writing various cellular automata in pure FP would be something I'd buy in a heartbeat
2019-07-12T18:54:27Z lambdapanda: I'm not too happy with contrived examples I see in some books
2019-07-12T18:54:39Z Zipheir: Which books?
2019-07-12T18:55:08Z lambdapanda: can't recall because it's something I last looked at like 3 years ago
2019-07-12T18:55:28Z lambdapanda: but i remember browsing thru a few and regretting my decision
2019-07-12T18:55:30Z lambdapanda: haha
2019-07-12T18:57:04Z lambdapanda: I think the best part about SICP was comparing how multiple paradigms could be used to do the same thing
2019-07-12T18:57:29Z Zipheir: The examples were so bad you've managed to suppress the memory.
2019-07-12T18:58:14Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: more like I immediately lost interest after a quick skimming of examples
2019-07-12T18:58:25Z Zipheir: Right, one thing that comes to mind when you mention automata in FP is the discussion in SICP of object-oriented and functional thinking reflecting two different views of the universe.
2019-07-12T18:58:55Z lambdapanda: yeah that part of the book was amazing
2019-07-12T18:58:59Z lambdapanda: it made something click for me
2019-07-12T18:59:09Z lambdapanda: clearly it didnt click well enough or I wont be here asking noob questions about FP haha
2019-07-12T18:59:37Z Zipheir: Eh, it's a journey
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2019-07-12T19:02:12Z lambdapanda: I'm skimming through the book you linked, and it looks pretty good!
2019-07-12T19:02:45Z lambdapanda: I wish I stumbled upon it earlier
2019-07-12T19:09:57Z Zipheir: Great, I'm glad you like it.  It's a beautiful book, imo.
2019-07-12T19:16:33Z jcowan: Here's a lovely counterexample to that "PTC makes nice stack traces impossible":  http://funcall.blogspot.com/2011/03/tail-recursion-and-debugging.html
2019-07-12T19:16:58Z jcowan: s/example/argument
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2019-07-12T20:00:43Z amz3: how do they print the stack if it tail recursive?
2019-07-12T20:00:53Z amz3: with optimisation I mean
2019-07-12T20:01:05Z amz3: they keep around a trace?
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2019-07-12T20:06:55Z gnomon: amz3, or you instrument your calling process differently altogether, selecting some subset of your entire call trace.
2019-07-12T20:08:19Z amz3: now that seems obvious that GvR was wrong about TCO
2019-07-12T20:08:44Z amz3: also, I never had trouble debugging tail-calls YMMV
2019-07-12T20:09:19Z jcowan: Chicken, for example, stores and prints the last N calls.  Works well enough.
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2019-07-12T20:21:40Z wasamasa: until you run into a loop
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2019-07-12T20:27:11Z gnomon: good thing loops aren't usually a thing
2019-07-12T20:27:13Z gnomon coughs in APL
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2019-07-12T20:30:10Z Zipheir wonders what that sounds like.
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2019-07-12T20:50:03Z jcowan: ⍺∇∈|, I think ("AHEM" on a traditional APL keyboard; on a modern one you use AltGr instead of Shift)
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2019-07-12T22:23:33Z rain1: the debugging argument never made any sense to me
2019-07-12T22:23:41Z rain1: tail calls clean up the stack trace making it easier to debug
2019-07-12T22:23:48Z rain1: and yes, ring buffers are a thing
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2019-07-13T03:01:19Z Riastradh: These days I actually tend to think it makes more sense to let the programmer specify reductions explicitly where it is important, like Pre-Scheme does, rather than have the language mandate that every procedure call in certain positions be a reduction...
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2019-07-13T14:13:18Z TonCherA1: Hey, I'm trying to extract the value of a variable whose name is stored as a symbol inside another variable, like so: v1: 'v2, v2: 5. I was thinking I should be able to do it with quasiquotation but ``,,v1 leaves me with `,v2 and doesn't evaluate further. I'd like to avoid having to either define a macro or use eval. Is this possible? I'd appreciate any pointers.
2019-07-13T14:17:04Z amz3: eval it is
2019-07-13T14:17:34Z amz3: or roll-your-own-eval
2019-07-13T14:18:18Z TonCherA1: Oh well
2019-07-13T14:18:42Z gwatt: TonCherA1: if 'v2 is stored in a structure like an a-list or hash-table that should be pretty easy
2019-07-13T14:19:05Z amz3: yes, that what I meant by roll-your-own-eval
2019-07-13T14:19:28Z amz3: I am in cryptic mood ;)
2019-07-13T14:21:02Z TonCherA1: gwatt: um, it's just in a list
2019-07-13T14:22:05Z gwatt: TonCherA1: does the list look like this: ((v1 v2) (v2 5)) ?
2019-07-13T14:22:38Z TonCherA1: nope, (v2 ...)
2019-07-13T14:22:59Z rain1: write it in full we dont know what the ... is short for
2019-07-13T14:23:19Z TonCherA1: uh, some other unrelated elements
2019-07-13T14:23:57Z TonCherA1: basically i'm trying to pull a goops class from a class-name
2019-07-13T14:24:12Z TonCherA1: so I can use it with make
2019-07-13T14:24:21Z TonCherA1: for the purposes of simplistic serialization
2019-07-13T14:26:02Z amz3: you need an alist list `((class-name-a . ,make-class-a) (class-name-b . ,make-class-b)))
2019-07-13T14:26:47Z amz3: or an hash-table
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2019-07-13T14:29:19Z TonCherA1: yeah I guess, thanks
2019-07-13T14:31:35Z amz3: yw
2019-07-13T14:31:43Z daviid: TonCherA1: use modurel-ref instead
2019-07-13T14:32:32Z daviid: if you knw the moduel and if the class is defined of course ...
2019-07-13T14:32:39Z daviid: *module
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2019-07-13T14:35:55Z daviid: TonCherA1: https://paste.debian.net/1091471/
2019-07-13T14:35:58Z TonCherA1: thanks, this is also pretty neat actually
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2019-07-14T17:39:34Z amz3: for the pleasure of triggering the CPU fan, you can try this 4.5M big mixture of javascript and scheme preferably using firefox https://scheme-live.github.io/ff.scm/
2019-07-14T17:40:21Z amz3: (preferably firefox, because chromium does fail non-deterministically)
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2019-07-14T20:46:05Z nly: is there any known implementation  of elephant?
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2019-07-14T21:03:15Z aeth: two extant and many extinct. oh, you probably mean a different kind of "elephant".
2019-07-14T21:03:32Z wasamasa: postgresql?
2019-07-14T21:07:45Z nly: lol
2019-07-14T21:08:56Z nly: maybe, database is one of the features, but there are more
2019-07-14T21:09:29Z nly: this elephant: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/elephant/elephant.html
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2019-07-14T21:18:04Z nly: thanks, postgres seems relevant
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2019-07-14T21:26:28Z amz3: nly: tell me more
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2019-07-14T21:40:55Z jcowan: I very much doubt it.  If there was, it probably died with JMC.
2019-07-14T21:42:50Z jcowan: Frankly, it always sounded like Newton's astrology to me.
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2019-07-15T00:41:03Z byronkatz: hey yall, is this a place to ask questions about Scheme?  Cause I've been investigating a while and would love to have an answer.  Alternately, if there is a "schemenewbs" or "scheme school" channel, mind letting me know?
2019-07-15T00:43:07Z byronkatz: While you brew on that question, here's my next question: I'm looking to the SRFI's for some examples of standardized code, and getting exasperated, because it looks like those standards require things that have become broken in the interim!  Bizarre!
2019-07-15T00:43:24Z byronkatz: So what gives?  Are the SRFI's just for examination?  an antique document?
2019-07-15T00:44:21Z byronkatz: Specifically: SRFI-13 requires let-optional*, but I cannot find a working RSR5 example that will build in racket.
2019-07-15T00:44:43Z byronkatz: Please excuse my lack of culture :)
2019-07-15T00:50:11Z Zipheir: Some SRFIs have become antiques, but many of them are alive and well.  SRFI-13 works perfectly in most implementations.
2019-07-15T00:50:39Z Zipheir: And yeah, this is the main Scheme channel, although there are many others for individual implementations.
2019-07-15T00:50:41Z byronkatz: Hmmm...  welll...... I mean, string= works fine, yeah.  But try string-has
2019-07-15T00:50:47Z byronkatz: ehh.. I mean string-hash
2019-07-15T00:52:02Z byronkatz: Here's a tiny snippet from the beginning of SRFI-13...
2019-07-15T00:52:04Z byronkatz: ;;; This code has the following non-R5RS dependencies:
2019-07-15T00:52:04Z byronkatz: ;;; - (RECEIVE (var ...) mv-exp body ...) multiple-value binding macro;
2019-07-15T00:52:04Z byronkatz: ...
2019-07-15T00:52:04Z byronkatz: ;;; - :OPTIONAL and LET-OPTIONALS* macros for parsing, defaulting &
2019-07-15T00:52:04Z byronkatz: ;;;   type-checking optional parameters from a rest argument;
2019-07-15T00:52:38Z Zipheir: Is that the reference implementation?
2019-07-15T00:53:33Z byronkatz: it's from...https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-13/blob/master/srfi-13.scm
2019-07-15T00:53:44Z byronkatz: I found it from... https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-13/srfi-13.html
2019-07-15T00:53:54Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's Olin's code from 20 years ago.
2019-07-15T00:53:57Z byronkatz: yeah
2019-07-15T00:54:11Z Zipheir: Most Schemes will provide their own versions of the SRFIs they provide.
2019-07-15T00:54:30Z byronkatz: ahh.... So somewhere within, for example, DrRacket, there's a working SRFI-13?
2019-07-15T00:55:07Z Zipheir: byronkatz: https://docs.racket-lang.org/srfi/srfi-13.html
2019-07-15T00:55:18Z gwatt: https://github.com/arcfide/chez-srfi/blob/master/%253a152/macros.scm#L13
2019-07-15T00:55:29Z Zipheir: SRFIs 1 and 13 are implemented pretty much everywhere...
2019-07-15T00:55:59Z byronkatz: You guys are awesome, thanks!
2019-07-15T00:56:16Z gwatt: racket also has better optional argument functionality than let-optional*
2019-07-15T00:57:33Z byronkatz: once I started having to include all this, made me a bit philosophical about Scheme's culture of simplicity versus CL's "all tools included" philosophy.  I'm still such a total newbie.
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2019-07-15T00:58:28Z byronkatz: On the other hand it's good to see precisely what's entailed in providing these things.
2019-07-15T00:58:47Z byronkatz: Thanks again!
2019-07-15T01:01:45Z Zipheir: You're welcome.  Stick around, and feel free to ask if you have any more questions.
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2019-07-15T01:21:48Z jcowan: Often it's just a slightly retouched version of the SRFI sample implementation. We know this because occasionally bugs are reported back to the SRFI mailing list.
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2019-07-15T01:22:16Z jcowan: Chibi has a full reimplementation of SRFI 1, because the sample is optimized for speed and Chibi's for space.
2019-07-15T01:23:16Z jcowan: IMO the (chibi optionals) lib is very good; it supports optionals and keywords (but not both at the same time, which is always hard to use in Lisp anyhow)
2019-07-15T01:23:59Z Riastradh: Not at all; Racket does it quite nicely.
2019-07-15T01:24:12Z Riastradh: Only if you insist on following Common Lisp is it troublesome.
2019-07-15T01:24:40Z jcowan: Sorry, I meant CL, not Lisp in general.
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2019-07-15T02:36:09Z nly: amz3: mccarthy's website should have more details than i could tell anyone. here is a recording of jmc  talking about elephant: http://web.archive.org/web/20130729203501id_/http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail3770.html
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2019-07-15T03:00:24Z Zipheir: nly: Wow, it's an interesting idea at the very least.
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2019-07-15T05:21:28Z mdhughes: Chicken also has a nice optional, keys, rest system: http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Module%20scheme#procedure-calls
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2019-07-15T11:09:26Z amz3: hello #scheme
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2019-07-15T15:16:56Z amz3: nly: tx for the links about elephant that is interesting, I started reading not finished yet
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2019-07-15T17:46:37Z amz3: anyone has feedback on the Collective Code Construction Contract also known as zeromq C4
2019-07-15T17:46:39Z amz3: https://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:22/C4/
2019-07-15T17:47:44Z wasamasa: the author is dead
2019-07-15T17:48:19Z rain1: oh yeah I think this is a good thing
2019-07-15T17:58:06Z Zipheir: Ouch.
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2019-07-15T18:09:35Z amz3: rip
2019-07-15T18:09:51Z amz3: wasamasa: it doesn't mean c4 is bad
2019-07-15T18:10:16Z wasamasa: it's just an association
2019-07-15T18:10:48Z wasamasa: if I actually wanted to make a point, I'd talk about the author's relation to collaboration and people in general
2019-07-15T18:14:49Z amz3: I did not read the psycopath book, but I read 'culture and empire' along with 'social architecture' both good reads but... I missing some pieces...
2019-07-15T18:15:42Z wasamasa: the missing piece is the drama around zeromq and nanomsg
2019-07-15T18:16:06Z wasamasa: I find it ironic that he left a project designed to do communication over a communication issue
2019-07-15T18:16:17Z wasamasa: then the other communication library died due to a lack of communication
2019-07-15T18:16:31Z wasamasa: but that's just me, the rest of the world doesn't care
2019-07-15T18:17:46Z wasamasa: hm, apparently activity increased again
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2019-07-15T18:24:33Z amz3: yeah they "forked" zeromq it several times, first nanomsg, now it is called nng, see https://github.com/nanomsg/nng
2019-07-15T18:25:04Z amz3: the reason the first fork happened, is because the original dev wanted a perfect solution written in C (instead of C++) with breaking changes et al.
2019-07-15T18:25:15Z amz3: Hintjens wanted a (very) big community.
2019-07-15T18:26:20Z wasamasa: nng doesn't look like an improvement to me
2019-07-15T18:26:32Z wasamasa: transparent threading will make scheme interop needlessly hard
2019-07-15T18:26:47Z wasamasa: lack of fds, too
2019-07-15T18:27:56Z amz3: it requires ownership of the mainthread for some reasons, you can not interop it with another eventloop (that's maybe what you meant with the lack of fds)
2019-07-15T18:28:18Z wasamasa: right, that's what CHICKEN uses to do non-blocking stuff
2019-07-15T18:28:48Z amz3: what does chicken use? fds?
2019-07-15T18:29:04Z wasamasa: yes
2019-07-15T18:29:21Z wasamasa: one can listen on a fd until it's ready for attention by the scheduler
2019-07-15T18:32:45Z daviid: we can do that 'just' using inotify2 right?
2019-07-15T18:33:26Z wasamasa: a file descriptor, not a file
2019-07-15T18:43:26Z daviid: inotify-add-watch gets the fd 'on its own' ... from ports
2019-07-15T18:44:26Z wasamasa: now, imagine you have a library that provides something looking like a socket, without a way to retrieve the underlying fd
2019-07-15T18:47:15Z amz3: yes, we were discussing about nng a fork of nanomsg which is fork of zeromq
2019-07-15T18:47:50Z amz3: nng doesn't provide a fd over the underlying network socket that it use or something that is an fd that would allow to interop nng with other event loops.
2019-07-15T18:48:19Z amz3: for instance, afaik, it is not possible to run nng with gtk app
2019-07-15T18:48:37Z amz3: I am not sure what nng does with files, prolly it doesn't handle files at all like most event loops
2019-07-15T18:48:52Z amz3: s/most event loops/most network event loops/
2019-07-15T18:50:03Z amz3: this reminds me of libdht the original library that was forked in transmission-gtk, it doesn't expose a fd, instead you need to call a function "sometime"
2019-07-15T19:07:28Z Zipheir: Oi, anything related to fds is a major pain in Scheme.
2019-07-15T19:12:42Z Zipheir: Er, s/ in Scheme//
2019-07-15T19:15:00Z Riastradh: Why do you say that?
2019-07-15T19:16:08Z Zipheir: In Scheme, at least, trying to juggle fds and ports is miserable, but it's the nature of the beast with most POSIX stuff.
2019-07-15T19:18:02Z Zipheir: Generally speaking, I think fds are uh, I think "crummy UNIX relic" is the technical term.
2019-07-15T19:18:58Z Riastradh: What would you use to replace them?
2019-07-15T19:20:14Z Zipheir: I don't have any brilliant ideas, I'm just being opinionated. :-P
2019-07-15T19:20:28Z Riastradh: What is it about fds that you find to be crummy?
2019-07-15T19:23:50Z Zipheir: (1) There's no easily accessible information in the fd itself.  (2) Limited number of fds, and you're responsible for keeping track of them.
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2019-07-15T19:25:51Z Zipheir: I would very much like to see what abstractions other OSs have used, because there must be better things.
2019-07-15T19:26:12Z wasamasa: like, windows?
2019-07-15T19:26:44Z wasamasa: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/i-o-completion-ports
2019-07-15T19:27:08Z wasamasa: aka IOCP
2019-07-15T19:27:28Z wasamasa: which associates file handles with a port
2019-07-15T19:27:35Z wasamasa: which are most likely fds again :D
2019-07-15T19:27:46Z aeth: A lot of good ideas were abandoned for performance reasons in the 1980s/1990s.
2019-07-15T19:27:52Z wasamasa: it's a handy concept after all
2019-07-15T19:28:02Z Riastradh: Zipheir: What would you want to be `accessible in the fd itself'?
2019-07-15T19:29:11Z Riastradh: To be more specific, we have a small distributed system here with a client and a server: an application is talking to an operating system; the operating system is managing hardware resources and ferrying I/O around outside the application.  What should the messages that the application and operating system send to each other look like, when the application wants the operating system to do I/O on its
2019-07-15T19:29:18Z Riastradh: behalf?
2019-07-15T19:31:41Z Riastradh: In Unix, the application sends a message like open("/path/to/file", O_RDONLY), and the OS, in response, looks up the file, allocates some state (note that the OS keeps track of things!) and returns a token like 3 and returns `success!  your fd is 3'.
2019-07-15T19:31:49Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-07-15T19:32:38Z Riastradh: Conceivably the OS could return a long byte string encoding structured data like `(3, "/path/to/file", O_RDONLY)' instead of just the integer 3.  But would that be useful for any applications?
2019-07-15T19:33:04Z Riastradh: Conceivably the OS could return a random 256-bit cookie instead of the integer 3.  Would that be useful for any applications?
2019-07-15T19:34:45Z Zipheir: For one thing, and this is a major architectural problem, I think, the dance of "get a token from the kernel, and each time you want to do anything give the token back" sees very nuts-and-bolts.  What would be lovely is a structure which wraps a stream and other relevant stuff that you can read from and manipulate without some explicit "here, kernel, do this on this number" call.
2019-07-15T19:36:29Z Riastradh: What is a `structure which wraps a stream and other relevant stuff'?
2019-07-15T19:37:09Z Riastradh: When you want the OS to transmit data, what message do you send to the OS?  When you are ready to receive data, what message do you send to the OS?
2019-07-15T19:38:12Z Zipheir: *sigh*  Maybe I'm just thinking at the wrong level of abstraction.
2019-07-15T19:38:58Z Riastradh: Are you suggesting that maybe what you want to do is say `open the file at this pathname _and_ load its content into the buffer at the following address, and then send a signal when it's done', like open + aio_read?
2019-07-15T19:39:25Z Zipheir: I suppose so.
2019-07-15T19:42:20Z Zipheir: The serious annoyance, I think, is the very explicit userspace/kernel bottleneck with UNIX--you have this token, and anything you want to do with it involves a system call on that token.
2019-07-15T19:42:31Z Riastradh: But, what if you want to read many times, and act on the partial inputs?  Do we need a way for the application to ask the OS to take a series of actions each time partial data is ready, as in open_file_and_read(pathname, buffer, len, {signal_for_first_chunk, signal_for_second_chunk, ...})?
2019-07-15T19:43:51Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-07-15T19:45:26Z Zipheir: Well, I don't have a canned example of a brilliant alternative design.  Frankly, I regret mouthing off about it in the first place.
2019-07-15T19:45:38Z Riastradh: So, now, in addition to programming in Scheme, you have to write a Scheme program to program the OS's I/O programmer.
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2019-07-15T19:52:02Z weinholt: Zipheir, https://arrakis.cs.washington.edu/  these guys had the idea to give the application direct access to virtualized hardware
2019-07-15T19:52:50Z Riastradh: vsn
2019-07-15T19:52:54Z Riastradh: (ignore)
2019-07-15T19:54:24Z Zipheir: Hmm.
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2019-07-15T20:30:39Z amz3: the lisp os paper argue that the file system is not lispy, instead of a filesystem there should be a triple store :]
2019-07-15T20:32:08Z amz3: I kiding about the triple store, the paper mention a taxonomy, they say that the file system hierarchy is not a good way to organize things. This should be put in the context when it was written around the days where delicious bookmark site was very popular and everybody et al. was using taxonomies
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2019-07-15T20:33:41Z amz3: what i don't like about fds is that they are used for unrelated things : network, inter processus communication, files and other things?
2019-07-15T20:33:53Z erkin: I daresay object-based storage is still underrated. :-)
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2019-07-15T20:34:51Z amz3: lisp os paper again, states that unix was built under the hardware constraints that are not true anymore. Things like unix commands and pipes should not be the way things work nowadays
2019-07-15T20:36:27Z amz3: we got used to those abstractions (pipes and hierarchies) but they are other ways the mind can work. I don't think I ever read something that said "hierarchy is the most easy to the mind" but I read mutliple times "graph are easy to the mind [even if they can become overhelming [at which point you fallback on hierarchies or taxonomies]]"
2019-07-15T20:37:00Z amz3: ref: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2019-07-15T20:38:00Z amz3: erkin: what do you mean by object-based storage?
2019-07-15T20:40:31Z Riastradh: amz3: Should there be different namespaces for resources allocated by the OS, depending on whether they are backed by spinning rust, by a network device, or by another process?
2019-07-15T20:40:44Z erkin: amz3: Non-hierarchical filesystems where "files" are just objects with various attributes.
2019-07-15T20:41:06Z amz3: erkin: that is what lispos.html describes
2019-07-15T20:41:12Z erkin: Yeah
2019-07-15T20:41:42Z erkin: I mean to say the concept still deserves attention in this post-bookmark age. :-)
2019-07-15T20:42:05Z erkin: To my knowledge, only IBM i and Cosmos implement it.
2019-07-15T20:43:55Z Riastradh: amz3: Why is it a problem that you can select/poll on a socket _and_ select/poll on an IPC pipe?  Would you prefer a system where you _can't_ uniformly select/poll on all I/O sources?
2019-07-15T20:44:55Z amz3: Riastradh: well, I am again paraphrsing lispos.html, but I tend to agree that there should be no "namespaces" in the sense of processus or user vs kernel spaces, each "program" should have access to the same structured memoery store and expose "capabilitities" some kinds of contracts.
2019-07-15T20:45:52Z amz3: I/O inside the user space is false dichotomy, this is a constraint imposed by the Linux kernel. There is alternatives to pipes and shared memory.
2019-07-15T20:46:02Z Riastradh: Well, what's the difference between `different namespace for IPC vs sockets' and `different kinds of capabilities with disjoint operations on them for IPC and sockets'?
2019-07-15T20:46:07Z amz3: I/O inside the +same+ user space is false dichotomy, this is a constraint imposed by the Linux kernel. There is alternatives to pipes and shared memory.
2019-07-15T20:47:08Z amz3: the things is that network sockets have a hardware constraint related to latency, that why it must be dealts differently from data that is in another "Linux processus" that currently also required a fd
2019-07-15T20:47:22Z Riastradh: What if you just read `file descriptor' as just a manifestation of the idea of a capability?
2019-07-15T20:47:55Z Riastradh: What does the use of integer tickets for resources have to do with hardware latency constraints?
2019-07-15T20:47:57Z amz3: Riastradh: but there is not accepted protocol, and each processus can have its serialization scheme et al.
2019-07-15T20:49:04Z amz3: Riastradh: yes, the integer thing, is an implementation detail, in scheme os, I think it would be simpler if there was no notion of fd. Only remove processus and local shared database with access control (capabilities)
2019-07-15T20:49:16Z amz3: s/remove/remote/
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2019-07-15T20:50:36Z Riastradh: So you want to eliminate all hardware-supported privilege boundaries that prevent misuse and clean up after bugs, and rely entirely on software to be well-behaved instead?
2019-07-15T20:50:45Z amz3: again, lispos.html, and I tend to agree, discuss the fact that there should be no such dichotomy between RAM and on-disk-persistence. To some extent, everything the user does should be persisted.
2019-07-15T20:54:16Z amz3: Riastradh: Sorry, I don't know what are hardware supported privilege boundaries.
2019-07-15T20:55:13Z amz3: again lispos.html states that the "memory as an array" is a low level artifcact. And they should be something beyond the "read that adress, copy that register, update that slice of memory"
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2019-07-15T20:56:16Z amz3: the system would work using some persistance and access control that would allow to rollback to previous states
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2019-07-15T20:56:37Z amz3: so if one with the required credentials, crash the system, it would be possible to rollback
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2019-07-15T20:56:46Z amz3: like guix does
2019-07-15T20:57:12Z Riastradh: I'm not really sure what you're proposing here.  Is this a dream for a theoretical computer architecture that doesn't correspond to any existing computer architecture with things like CPU, cache, virtual memory, RAM, &c.?
2019-07-15T20:57:17Z amz3: s/persistance/versioning/
2019-07-15T20:58:01Z amz3: yes and no, it is somewhat mean extrapolating what i read in http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2019-07-15T20:58:08Z amz3: s/mean/me/
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2019-07-15T20:59:25Z amz3: the idea of no memory as an array + hard disk and only a database as shared memory datastructure makes a lot of sense
2019-07-15T21:00:17Z amz3: yes it is a dream :)
2019-07-15T21:02:17Z amz3: also, in this system where there is not hierarchical file system of bytes, you can fallback to old bytes files if you want so it not a one way trip
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2019-07-15T21:49:25Z Zipheir: Riastradh: BTW, thank you for asking specific questions.  In total seriousness, it's much more helpful than idle agreement.
2019-07-15T22:04:31Z dTal: mmmm
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2019-07-15T22:20:10Z Riastradh: Zipheir: I used to grumble aimlessly about Unix (UHH, &c.).  But I've found criticism to be much more satisfying when it is concretely grounded.
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2019-07-15T22:59:29Z gwatt: UHH is a fun read
2019-07-15T23:00:58Z amz3: what is the full title of UHH please?
2019-07-15T23:01:08Z amz3: Unix Haters Handbook?
2019-07-15T23:01:08Z gwatt: Unix Haters Handbood
2019-07-15T23:01:13Z amz3: :)
2019-07-15T23:01:31Z gwatt: or sometimes UHG, where G = Guide
2019-07-15T23:01:44Z amz3: http://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf
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2019-07-15T23:03:28Z gwatt: Other parts aside, I think fds are one of the better things to come out of unix
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2019-07-15T23:25:23Z dTal: does unix haters handbook have any relevance in 2019?
2019-07-15T23:25:33Z dTal: I feel like we need a new edition
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2019-07-15T23:34:57Z amz3: I read the first pagse and the last pagse and the table of content, I like that book
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2019-07-15T23:35:15Z amz3: a question remains, what is the Correct Operating System
2019-07-15T23:35:44Z amz3: maybe a start menu inside a web browser window is the Right Thing.
2019-07-15T23:36:42Z amz3: s/pagse/pages/g
2019-07-15T23:37:14Z amz3: dTal: it doesn't mention Python, does it?
2019-07-15T23:37:37Z dTal: no, not at all
2019-07-15T23:38:28Z amz3: then, UGH (or UHG) requires an update }:]
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2019-07-16T13:39:36Z _sfiguser: an you guys tell me why i read a lot about lispy language excitement and their modularity and repl-based behavior? i mean these things are also present in python/ruby/perl no? 
2019-07-16T13:47:19Z jcowan:  _sfiguser: Yes, but we were here first with the whole package.
2019-07-16T13:47:33Z jcowan: There is a reason we are called "smung Lisp weenies"
2019-07-16T13:48:19Z jcowan: In particular, extensible syntax beyond the level of the C preprocessor is still rare.
2019-07-16T13:48:31Z jcowan: "Lisp programmers do not write code; their macros write it for them."
2019-07-16T13:49:08Z jcowan: Implementations of Lisp can also be made extremely fast.
2019-07-16T13:49:47Z _sfiguser: jcowan, ok but i really don't understand the advantage of macros... i mean at the end is like writing functions...
2019-07-16T13:49:56Z _sfiguser: i mean i just have performance advantage right?
2019-07-16T13:50:29Z dTal: 99% of the time, you do just want a function, yes
2019-07-16T13:50:31Z jcowan: Take your favorite language.  Suppose it didn't have a for-loop.  How hard would it be to modify the implementation to support one?  In Lisp that's a student exercise.
2019-07-16T13:50:51Z jcowan: But yes, syntax extension isn't something you do lightly.
2019-07-16T13:51:07Z dTal: the remaining 1% of the time, it's impossible to cleanly express what you want without them
2019-07-16T13:51:34Z _sfiguser: jcowan, i can write a function... for(int i, int step, int max)
2019-07-16T13:51:43Z _sfiguser: jcowan, so what's different
2019-07-16T13:51:48Z dTal: they are the get-out clause that allows you to express anything, in any way, as long as you don't mind it being s-expressions
2019-07-16T13:52:32Z dTal: _sfiguser: where does the body of the for loop go?
2019-07-16T13:53:10Z _sfiguser: sorry i forgot... wait...
2019-07-16T13:53:20Z _sfiguser: for(int i, int step, int max, func userFunction)
2019-07-16T13:53:23Z _sfiguser: dTal,
2019-07-16T13:53:32Z jcowan: How does userFunction know the value of i?
2019-07-16T13:53:34Z _sfiguser: take function as input
2019-07-16T13:54:37Z dTal: right, you could do that - but what if you didn't want to define a function for every for-loop body?
2019-07-16T13:55:03Z jcowan: Now suppose you have two nested loops.  Normally, the index variable for both loops will be accessible inside the inner loop, so now you have to pass that to the inner function.
2019-07-16T13:55:27Z jcowan: (dTal: enough languages have anonymous functions now that that isn't a big deal.)
2019-07-16T13:56:01Z dTal: almost any toy example of macros will look like "not a big deal"
2019-07-16T13:56:05Z jcowan: And if you want a while-loop, which depends on being able to change the values of any variables within the while-expression, you are out of luck.
2019-07-16T13:57:53Z dTal: for what it's worth macros didn't make any sense to me until I wanted to write one - _sfiguser's perplexion is an extremely recognizable emotion to me
2019-07-16T13:58:42Z dTal: typically what happens is you're writing something, you notice you've repeated a certain pattern a number of times, and you want to abstract it - then you realize you *can't* abstract it with functions, because what you're looking for is some sort of syntactical abstraction
2019-07-16T13:59:46Z dTal: the more aggressively you try to abstract stuff and adhere to "1 symbol in your mind -> 1 symbol in the source code", the more you hit this
2019-07-16T13:59:56Z jcowan: The first N macros I wrote were convenience macros, just so I didn't have to quote arguments when using them from the REPL.
2019-07-16T14:00:36Z jcowan: (That was before ' was widely available:  typing (foo (quote bar) (quote baz)) was horrible.
2019-07-16T14:00:37Z jcowan: )
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2019-07-16T14:08:47Z dTal: hm, is a macro to alias λ to lambda possible?
2019-07-16T14:09:10Z dTal: in, say, R6RS
2019-07-16T14:11:06Z gwatt: dTal: (define-syntax λ (identifier-syntax lambda))
2019-07-16T14:12:03Z dTal: wonderful! didn't know about identifier-syntax
2019-07-16T14:12:17Z dTal: _sfiguser: a use for macros ^ :)
2019-07-16T14:12:35Z dTal: thank you gwatt!
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2019-07-16T14:21:50Z gwatt: dTal: though you could also just import lambda as λ: (import (rename (rnrs) (lambda λ)))
2019-07-16T14:22:31Z gwatt: If it's for some reason (free-identifer=? #'lambda #'λ) is true
2019-07-16T14:23:01Z gwatt: important *
2019-07-16T14:23:59Z dTal: I don't really understand it would be important, but it seems cleaner than a macro
2019-07-16T14:24:24Z gwatt: If you decided lambda should be a keyword to another macro
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2019-07-16T14:52:50Z dTal: I'm tempted to APL-ify scheme
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2019-07-16T15:02:55Z gnomon: dTal, you mean like APROL?
2019-07-16T15:03:25Z gnomon: dTal, http://www.cs.trinity.edu/~jhowland/aprol.paper.pdf
2019-07-16T15:06:01Z dTal: "One advantage of the J syntax which is not fully retained in APROL is its unique readability." ROFL
2019-07-16T15:06:59Z dTal: I was actually referring more to the liberal use of symbols instead of words, but this seems like it might be a very interesting paper
2019-07-16T15:07:02Z z0d: emphasis on unique
2019-07-16T15:08:31Z dTal: gnomon: have you ever played with Nial? If you're interested in the intersection of Lisp and APL, you shouldn't miss it
2019-07-16T15:08:58Z gnomon: Honestly, the APL family _does_ have some readability advantages.  Reading a J program can be like reading a Scheme program that's like 30+% macros: super high density, you have to build up a lot of mental context for it to make sense, but as long as the implementations are super solid you can pack a lot of meaning into a single screen.  It's just that the disadvantages throw every newcomer under the
2019-07-16T15:09:04Z gnomon: nearest bus.
2019-07-16T15:09:16Z gnomon: dTal, I'm aware of it but I've never had the pleasure of actually using it!
2019-07-16T15:09:32Z dTal: I don't think that packing a lot of meaning into a single screen is a useful goal.
2019-07-16T15:10:03Z gnomon shrugs
2019-07-16T15:10:14Z gnomon: It is for some people, in some problem domains, using some tools.
2019-07-16T15:10:25Z dTal: Displaying the 1s and 0s of the file as black and white dots packs a lot of meaning on one screen too
2019-07-16T15:11:17Z dTal: anyway, you should play with Nial, there's a 64-bit release on github and it's real easy to compile. It's the only APL-alike I've seen that actually fully commits to using english words
2019-07-16T15:11:50Z dTal: which makes the learning curve much nicer, and reading programs more pleasant.
2019-07-16T15:13:07Z dTal: I'm not quite sure where the Lisp connection is, except that the syntax is left-associative and uses parens for grouping, which in practice results in very lispy code
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2019-07-16T15:35:07Z aeth: Words over symbols is very Lispy, too.
2019-07-16T15:35:44Z aeth: Lisps tend to use symbols only where they're more obvious than words, like * instead of multiply.
2019-07-16T15:36:13Z aeth: (except for quote, unquote, quasiquote, etc.)
2019-07-16T15:38:46Z gwatt: also suffixes like ! and ?
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2019-07-16T15:41:17Z aeth: That's very Scheme, although I'm not sure I've seen a lisp use -predicate instead of -p or p or ?
2019-07-16T15:41:28Z dTal: I think lisps could do with a bit more symbols
2019-07-16T15:41:38Z dTal: a bit more syntax, for that matter
2019-07-16T15:41:48Z Riastradh: maybe a sprinkle of ground cardamom and a touch of cumin
2019-07-16T15:42:10Z dTal: as long as there's a canonical s-expression form, as with (quote) and (unquote), there's no problem with macros etc
2019-07-16T15:42:22Z aeth: dTal: Clojure did the whole more syntax and shorter names thing and I don't like it
2019-07-16T15:42:44Z aeth: Of course, there are probably other short names and other syntax you could use
2019-07-16T15:43:06Z dTal: yeah I was gonna say, the creators of Clojure obviously agree, but I've not tried Clojure and can't comment on how pleasant it is in practice
2019-07-16T15:43:11Z dTal: a lot of people seem to love it though
2019-07-16T15:43:41Z aeth: I prefer consistency in naming over brevity. I'd rather use define-macro than defmacro or defm or whatever
2019-07-16T15:43:48Z dTal: I don't neccesarily like short names either
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2019-07-16T15:44:25Z dTal: although I prefer a maximum of two syllables
2019-07-16T15:44:54Z aeth: Very few names are used so often and in such contexts where I'd want them short. + is one. References is actually another. I like CL's aref more than vector-ref
2019-07-16T15:45:27Z dTal: vector referencing seems like a clear-cut instance where syntax would be beneficial
2019-07-16T15:45:37Z aeth: Basically, it's about the ergonomics of what it does to using a bunch of them on one line (or trying to) and most things don't need to be like that
2019-07-16T15:45:47Z dTal: Python's slicing syntax is extremely nice
2019-07-16T15:46:55Z aeth: dTal: In Scheme, you want vector-ref syntax because the name's too long. In CL, I don't mind because aref is pretty short. Similarly, a hash table literal doesn't need its own syntax if it uses Racket's name, hash
2019-07-16T15:48:41Z dTal: certainly short names help, but the argument for symbols or syntax goes deeper. We have powerful visual systems and it's a shame to waste them
2019-07-16T15:49:23Z dTal: rainbow parens is just the tip of a very deep iceberg of how we have special-purpose hardware that can accelerate understanding of source code
2019-07-16T15:50:53Z dTal: although it's passe now, I quite honestly like the BASIC convention of $ sigils to represent strings. You can just glance at a piece of code and instantly know what kind of data it's dealing with. Lispy languages are hard to visually scan because they're quite homogenous (the same property that makes macros possible).
2019-07-16T15:51:07Z aeth: I prefer token conciseness to character conciseness, but then again, if I didn't I wouldn't be here.
2019-07-16T15:51:42Z aeth: You can get a better visual overview just with better synax highlighting imo
2019-07-16T15:52:09Z dTal: syntax highlighting is limited without Sufficiently Smart Static Analysis
2019-07-16T15:53:35Z aeth: Or connecting to the loaded program over a local server...
2019-07-16T15:53:41Z dTal: actually, what I'd really like is both terse syntax and canonical s-expr forms, *and* the ability to automatically toggle between them
2019-07-16T15:54:26Z dTal: It should be possible to trivially convert between '(expression) and (quote (expression)) in your editor
2019-07-16T15:55:03Z aeth: It's trivial when it's a macro instead of syntax.
2019-07-16T15:55:35Z dTal: Scheme macros can't do that though, can they? There's no reader macros
2019-07-16T15:55:53Z dTal: Unless I'm mistaken - I don't know macros well at all still
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2019-07-16T17:51:44Z gwatt: the reader transparently translates 'asdf to (quote asdf). Toggling the display between 'asdf and (quote asdf) would probably be an editor feature
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2019-07-16T18:20:56Z jcowan: Lexical syntax is a religious question: people *always* hate what they aren't used to.
2019-07-16T18:21:17Z jcowan: That's one reason why I've postponed it to the Very End of R7RS-large
2019-07-16T18:21:36Z jcowan: (but also because we don't want collisions between different libraries, lexical syntax being global)
2019-07-16T18:22:21Z jcowan: Some Schemes do have reader macros, like Chicken; others do not.  The more complex lexical syntax gets, the harder reader macros are to implement.
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2019-07-16T18:34:02Z Zipheir: I know next to nothing about the theoretical aspects of reader macros, but is there anything like an hygienic reader macro?
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2019-07-16T18:40:03Z Zipheir: I suppose most reader macros have no reason to introduce bindings, but it's still an interesting question.
2019-07-16T18:41:17Z wasamasa: lol, so there's plans for a racket2 with a different syntax: https://racket-news.com/2019/07/racket-news-issue-12.html
2019-07-16T18:41:29Z wasamasa: are they trying to win a popularity contest or what
2019-07-16T18:41:48Z gwatt: Zipheir: Do you want the ability to say "Do this read-time transformation scoped only to this block of code" ?
2019-07-16T18:42:15Z gwatt: I.e., (with-read-syntax ([...]) body ...)
2019-07-16T18:42:43Z Zipheir: gwatt: I don't want it, I'm just curious.  But yes, that seems useful.
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2019-07-16T18:42:55Z mdhughes: I haven't watched the Racket presentation yet, but read the proposal briefly. It's not much different from what Racket already does with all the variant "languages".
2019-07-16T18:43:35Z aeth: why call it "racket2" though
2019-07-16T18:43:53Z aeth: I have no problem with other syntaxes
2019-07-16T18:43:56Z wasamasa: because it would change the canonical syntax from s-expressions to something different
2019-07-16T18:44:19Z aeth: why is there even a canonical syntax
2019-07-16T18:44:31Z wasamasa: so that all docs, code and so on are uniform
2019-07-16T18:44:35Z aeth: They should just go full JVM with racket
2019-07-16T18:44:45Z wasamasa: if you don't do that, you'll confuse the shit out of beginners
2019-07-16T18:44:46Z Zipheir: wasamasa: The page you linked doesn't seem to mention a new syntax.
2019-07-16T18:44:50Z wasamasa: the talk does
2019-07-16T18:44:54Z Zipheir: Ah.
2019-07-16T18:45:11Z wasamasa: see JS for a great example on how to confuse the shit out of beginners
2019-07-16T18:45:15Z wasamasa: and current racket to some degree
2019-07-16T18:45:16Z aeth: wasamasa: Well, I guess the counterpoint is what happens is even if you give options, one wins, which is why no one uses VB.net instead of C#
2019-07-16T18:45:16Z Zipheir: Let me guess--it's something like Python?
2019-07-16T18:45:24Z wasamasa: aeth: right
2019-07-16T18:45:39Z wasamasa: well, something more C-like
2019-07-16T18:45:53Z wasamasa: foo(bar, baz) and x + y
2019-07-16T18:46:56Z Riastradh: Python definitely doesn't look like that.
2019-07-16T18:47:29Z wasamasa: and grouping with parentheses
2019-07-16T18:47:38Z wasamasa: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/racket-users/ewWuCvbe93k/e-tMWwlVAwAJ
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2019-07-16T18:49:19Z aeth: wasamasa: infix via {}s (one of the alternatives?) seems very reasonable
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2019-07-16T18:49:32Z Zipheir: As with most ideas involving Racket, I find myself wondering "who thought this was a problem that needed fixing?"
2019-07-16T18:49:37Z aeth: And I'm not sure if you really need f(x)
2019-07-16T18:49:58Z aeth: f(x) is pretty unreadable once you do complicated things
2019-07-16T18:50:52Z Zipheir: It could be worse.  Take Go's Endless.string.of.methods.which.wont.explode.somewhere.we.promise()
2019-07-16T18:50:54Z aeth: Apparently the {} is the https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-119/srfi-119.html extension of https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-105/srfi-105.html curly infix
2019-07-16T18:51:13Z aeth: Zipheir: nah, dot notation is fine until you mix in ()s and []s arbitrarily in the middle
2019-07-16T18:51:34Z Zipheir: Yeah, true.
2019-07-16T18:51:35Z aeth: the main problem with dots is that they make the methods live with the classes...
2019-07-16T18:51:44Z aeth: I like the CLOS-style more
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2019-07-16T18:54:31Z Riastradh: Rewrite the surface notation as a collection of TeX macros!
2019-07-16T18:55:46Z aeth: Oh, and the main disadvantage with the methods not living with the classes, afaik, is that it's hard to determine in advance (pre-runtime) that an object of class foo implements a method for bar.
2019-07-16T18:56:19Z Riastradh: \let(=\lparen\let)=\rparen\def\lparen#1\rparen{\loop\cons...}
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2019-07-16T19:24:34Z Zipheir: aeth: Typeclasses solve all that nonsense.
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2019-07-16T19:32:05Z jcowan: gwatt: Only if the scope of code is a single file (compilation unit).  Changes made to the readtable during compilation don't leak out.
2019-07-16T19:32:59Z jcowan likes predicate generic methods even better
2019-07-16T19:33:19Z jcowan: Typeclasses and generic functions are both useful tools.
2019-07-16T19:33:34Z Zipheir: Yes, or predicate-based generics.
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2019-07-16T22:38:45Z amz3: I am organising a coding competition for the next few months for schemes
2019-07-16T22:39:12Z amz3: I would be very glad if you could give me some feedback on the specification and guidelines before I reach a wider audience
2019-07-16T22:39:44Z amz3: sourcehut.org (the hacker forge) agree to sponsor the event, I am still looking for other sponsors.
2019-07-16T22:40:00Z amz3: https://git.sr.ht/~schemers/competition-2019-static-blog-generator#schemers-competition-2019
2019-07-16T22:41:12Z Zipheir: amz3: Cool
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2019-07-16T23:00:40Z amz3: O:)
2019-07-16T23:01:05Z TCZ: ;)
2019-07-16T23:03:21Z pjb: amz3: seems good.
2019-07-16T23:04:25Z pjb: The only thing, but I guess it's part of the contest, is that the only specification is "static blog", without mentionning specific features.
2019-07-16T23:05:22Z pjb: Also: the picture (austerity) seems to me more interesting as scheme program subject than "blog" :-)
2019-07-16T23:05:55Z amz3: yes, there is mystery feature that will be revealed along the competition little by little. Yes, the picture is in some sense related to the mystery feature.
2019-07-16T23:06:07Z pjb: :-)
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2019-07-17T01:48:49Z amz3: https://github.com/racket/racket2-rfcs/issues/3
2019-07-17T02:00:22Z amz3: more interesting https://github.com/racket/racket/wiki/Racket2
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2019-07-17T02:09:11Z Zipheir: Sounds like a whole new language.  Although they're just tossing around ideas atm, it seems.
2019-07-17T02:13:48Z Zipheir: tl,dr: We are too cool to keep pretending we're a Scheme implementation.
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2019-07-17T03:41:40Z amz3: that is marketing, same thing happened 30 years ago, but this time it is the developers that argue for python or curly syntax
2019-07-17T03:43:08Z amz3: a lot of conversation on racket user list was about marketing
2019-07-17T03:43:15Z amz3: recently
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2019-07-17T04:13:30Z notzmv: to be fair, I believe that's not bad for the community overall
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2019-07-17T04:17:20Z Zipheir: The Racket community, maybe.
2019-07-17T04:22:09Z Zipheir: But as a Schemer first and implementation-user second, I wish they'd market it as a Scheme and not rabbit on about some NIH'ed-up Racket-only syntax.
2019-07-17T04:31:12Z Riastradh: Is `Schemer' part of your identity, descriptive of a tool you use, or a source of inspiration?
2019-07-17T04:31:49Z Riastradh: For Racket, it was certainly a source of inspiration, but it is not really part of the project's identity nor is it, these days, closely connected to the tools.
2019-07-17T04:36:11Z Zipheir: That's understandable.  I'm not a fan of dogma, but it's also annoying when, for marketing reasons, Scheme implementations brand themselves as "the Racket language!", etc.  So we get more fragmentation, thanks to NIHism, marketing, and the ever-present neophilia of the computing world.
2019-07-17T04:39:59Z mdhughes: But it's accurate, it was PLT Scheme, but then they wanted to add some very not-Scheme features, so it got renamed.
2019-07-17T04:40:25Z Zipheir: Right.
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2019-07-17T04:51:22Z Riastradh: Zipheir: I suspect if you talked to people like Matthew Flatt today, they wouldn't call Racket a `Scheme implementation'; they might say something more like `a multilingual platform inspired by Scheme (which happens to implement several Scheme dialects as some of the many languages)'.
2019-07-17T04:51:54Z Riastradh: That's why they discarded the name PLT Scheme however many years ago.
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2019-07-17T04:56:40Z Zipheir: Clearly.  Hell, the URL is www.racket-lang.org.  It'd just be nice of them to shill for Scheme once in a while.
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2019-07-17T09:11:39Z dTal: Zipheir: I think Racket distinguishes itself sufficiently to warrant a new name, especially with the whole #lang thing
2019-07-17T09:12:14Z dTal: culturally, Racket is very different from Scheme as well
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2019-07-17T14:10:04Z jmarciano: hello, could somebody give me pointer or reference to definition of `any` procedure?
2019-07-17T14:13:04Z jcowan: jmarciano: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html
2019-07-17T14:18:32Z jmarciano: thanks
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2019-07-17T14:22:30Z Riastradh: It's like the `any' key!
2019-07-17T14:22:32Z Riastradh hides
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2019-07-17T15:18:06Z duncanm: hey Riastradh
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2019-07-17T17:51:20Z Zipheir: amz3: I suppose by 'static blog generator' your competition assignment _doesn't_ encompass generators for phlogs or ftp-logs? :)
2019-07-17T17:51:58Z amz3: IDK what phlogs or ftp-logs are
2019-07-17T17:55:40Z Zipheir: phlog = blog over gopher, ftp-log = ...
2019-07-17T17:56:15Z Zipheir: And, in general, what about generators for blogs over <protocol>?
2019-07-17T18:11:13Z amz3: well, I did not think about that.
2019-07-17T18:12:09Z amz3: my goal was to add more lisp code and add a scheme section to this site: https://www.staticgen.com/
2019-07-17T18:12:44Z amz3: maybe it works, I will add a
2019-07-17T18:13:05Z amz3: maybe it works, I will add a "More Bonus" section and add phlog and ftp-logs
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2019-07-17T19:16:16Z erkin: I'd be interested in a phlog generator as well.
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2019-07-17T21:08:35Z Riastradh: PSA: Just Say No to backtracking for implementing regular expressions.  Use an NFA!
2019-07-17T21:09:37Z gnomon: +1
2019-07-17T21:09:47Z gnomon: Riastradh, been reading post mortems again, eh?
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2019-07-17T21:10:50Z Riastradh: gnomon: I have no idea what you're flaring on about.
2019-07-17T21:11:03Z Riastradh: Memory is cloudy.
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2019-07-17T21:12:01Z gnomon: heh
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2019-07-18T00:32:13Z Riastradh: gnomon: Actually, heh, I had only read the headline earlier, didn't realize until just now the post-mortem actually went into the details of using NFAs.
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2019-07-18T18:06:00Z gnomon: Riastradh, the post mortem did so, and the blog post mentioned the 1968 Thompson article, but neglected to mention any of Russ Cox's work in that space!
2019-07-18T18:06:10Z gnomon: _whoops_
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2019-07-18T19:52:05Z ober: is there a function to print a given number of say a character? say white space padding (print " " 5) => "     "
2019-07-18T19:54:20Z rain1: no
2019-07-18T19:55:51Z ober: guessing format can be used with padding
2019-07-18T19:56:15Z gwatt: yeah, if the scheme has format
2019-07-18T19:56:54Z ober: not a problem
2019-07-18T19:57:19Z weinholt: (display (make-string 5 #\space)) works in a pinch, and there's also http://synthcode.com/scheme/fmt/
2019-07-18T19:59:37Z ober: oh nice. thanks weinholt
2019-07-18T20:04:22Z Zipheir: I think SRFI-166 https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-166/ is the canonical version of foof's formatting combinators these days.
2019-07-18T20:04:36Z Zipheir: The synthcode.com version uses an older naming scheme.
2019-07-18T20:04:57Z Zipheir: And yes, it is a great tool.
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2019-07-18T20:08:16Z amz3: isn't that a leftpad question?
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2019-07-18T20:09:26Z gwatt: as stated, it was more of an indentation question
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2019-07-18T22:03:50Z evhan: amz3: That's a nice initiative, the coding competition. Thanks for putting it together.
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2019-07-19T09:41:00Z amz3: evhan: yw
2019-07-19T09:41:11Z amz3: new prize comnig ;)
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2019-07-19T12:00:19Z gwatt: amz3: In the "Scheme Implementation Bonus" section, what qualifies as a "classic" scheme?
2019-07-19T12:05:07Z erkin: Pre-R5RS Schemes, I presume, such as Scheme48.
2019-07-19T12:05:31Z erkin: I don't understand why R7RS is 75 points though.
2019-07-19T12:05:58Z gwatt: yeah, the grading scale is wacky
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2019-07-19T12:18:01Z amz3: classic is defined in awesome-scheme repository as unmaintained but useful scheme implementation
2019-07-19T12:18:27Z amz3: erkin: r7rs is 75pts to help spread it, it is biased.
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2019-07-19T12:18:54Z amz3: why is it wacky? what  do you think requires improvements?
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2019-07-19T12:23:40Z erkin: amz3: Why give unmaintained implementations a higher score then?
2019-07-19T12:24:35Z gwatt: ^^ and CI setup and Phlog are weighted ludicrously high and have vanishingly little to do with a static blog generator
2019-07-19T12:26:22Z gwatt: also, the mystery feature is worth 500 points
2019-07-19T12:28:39Z nisstyre: amz3: like Stalin scheme?
2019-07-19T12:33:40Z gwatt: If I use a scheme that provides both r6rs and r7rs do I get 100 points for that?
2019-07-19T12:34:49Z erkin: A phlogpost is just a plaintext blogpost.
2019-07-19T12:35:17Z erkin: You just need to handle stuff like text alignment/justification, footnotes for external links etc.
2019-07-19T12:35:35Z gwatt: the link says it's about gopher support
2019-07-19T12:36:02Z erkin: phlog = gopher log
2019-07-19T12:36:20Z erkin: Analogous to blog = web log
2019-07-19T12:36:59Z erkin: I write my phlogposts with groff, although I think scribble might be a better tool for the job.
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2019-07-19T13:08:33Z gwatt: amz3: sorry if we're shitting on your parade. I think the competition is cool, I'm just a natural nit-picker.
2019-07-19T13:13:50Z amz3: the favicon is also big points for little work ;)
2019-07-19T13:14:44Z gnomon: erkin, that is amazing.
2019-07-19T13:15:30Z erkin: Hm?
2019-07-19T13:18:09Z gnomon: erkin, using groff for that purpose.
2019-07-19T13:18:23Z erkin: Oh haha, thanks
2019-07-19T13:18:29Z erkin: The idea isn't mine though.
2019-07-19T13:19:45Z erkin: https://davebucklin.com/play/2018/03/04/gopher-groff.html
2019-07-19T13:20:09Z gnomon reads
2019-07-19T13:20:39Z erkin: Here's an example: gopher://suika.erkin.party/0/files/roff/spaghetti.roff (my only published phlogpost, a half-baked one though)
2019-07-19T13:21:08Z erkin: Here's the formatted version: gopher://suika.erkin.party/0/phlog/spaghetti/post.txt
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2019-07-19T15:40:14Z jcowan: The only bad thing about the gopher proxy at https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/ (follow the link to either the proxy or the proxy-lite page) is that it doesn't auto-link URLs.
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2019-07-19T15:51:42Z amz3: erkin: that is interesting phlog post :)
2019-07-19T15:55:48Z jcowan: gopher://gopher.floodgap.com:70/0/gopher/clients/src/gopherlib.py <-- Gopher library and trivial GOpher client in 150 lines of Python.  Sweet.
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2019-07-19T16:04:12Z razzy: hi.
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2019-07-19T16:11:37Z amz3: hello razzy
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2019-07-19T16:37:55Z erkin: jcowan: Another complaint I have is that it defaults to Windows-1252 and there's no way to change the encoding. :-(
2019-07-19T16:38:00Z erkin: amz3: Thanks!
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2019-07-19T16:38:34Z jcowan: That is irritating, but it may reflect the documents actually found on Gopher servers.
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2019-07-19T16:39:41Z erkin: Yeah, it makes sense for legacy content.
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2019-07-19T17:18:54Z mdhughes: lynx is a better gopher client.
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2019-07-19T17:37:12Z gnomon: I just discovered that upon being handed a gopher:// URL, elinks launches lynx
2019-07-19T17:40:45Z X-Scale: There's one gopher link I never forget and often comes in handy -> gopher://gopher.viste.fr/P/docs/programming/C89%2520-%2520ISO%25209899-1990%2520%2528R1997%2529.pdf
2019-07-19T17:47:41Z jcowan: I get a pseudo-PDF that just says "Forbidden!"
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2019-07-19T17:49:18Z jcowan: Chrome is just so damn hostile to Gopher
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2019-07-19T18:16:27Z mdhughes: Invalid PDF.
2019-07-19T18:17:57Z mdhughes: Entire file contents: "iForbidden!	fake	fake	0"
2019-07-19T18:23:32Z Zipheir: Heh.
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2019-07-19T18:27:50Z amz3: virus.
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2019-07-19T21:05:28Z amz3: all the fun seems to implement schemes
2019-07-19T21:05:47Z amz3: yet-another-scheme
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2019-07-19T21:51:02Z Zipheir: Does anyone use args-fold (SRFI-37)?  If not, what do you use to parse cli options?
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2019-07-19T21:54:46Z Zipheir: I've been looking into something similar to http://paolocapriotti.com/blog/2012/04/27/applicative-option-parser for Scheme.  Despite the rather obfuscatory (as per usual) Haskell, the idea of an idiom-based arg library seems nice.  (c.f. optparse-applicative, which grew out of that post.)
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2019-07-19T23:02:00Z X-Scale: mdhughes: that's sad. Seems to be gone now. I could still download it recently.
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2019-07-19T23:02:31Z X-Scale: floodgap still has it listed though
2019-07-19T23:04:19Z erkin: Zipheir: Most people seem to use implementation-specific argument parsers.
2019-07-19T23:04:47Z erkin: I've used args-fold in a project before though.
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2019-07-19T23:18:24Z Zipheir: erkin: That was my impression, that there are a lot of random libraries kicking around.
2019-07-19T23:22:01Z erkin: It's pretty hard to write implementation-agnostic Scheme code.
2019-07-19T23:22:22Z erkin: Even with RnRS + SRFIs.
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2019-07-19T23:52:57Z nisstyre: erkin: only use cons/car/cdr and lambda and display
2019-07-19T23:53:00Z nisstyre: you should be ok
2019-07-19T23:53:13Z nisstyre: and avoid quoted list probably
2019-07-19T23:53:32Z nisstyre: although I think pretty much every decent scheme has quoted lists
2019-07-19T23:53:55Z erkin: I can't form a list with only cons and without a list keyword if I can't do quoted lists either.
2019-07-19T23:54:22Z nisstyre: oh yeah that's true you need something to signify the end of the list
2019-07-19T23:54:51Z nisstyre: I'm assuming support for some literals too
2019-07-19T23:54:59Z Zipheir: nisstyre: Surely you jest.  Any RnRS Scheme has quote.
2019-07-19T23:55:06Z nisstyre: Zipheir: I'm mostly kidding
2019-07-19T23:55:22Z nisstyre: but I'm sure there's some half baked scheme implementations someone did for fun or for school that don't have it
2019-07-19T23:56:12Z Zipheir: Heh.  "50% of literals, chosen randomly, are implicitly quoted."
2019-07-19T23:56:35Z Zipheir: s/literals/identifiers/
2019-07-19T23:58:29Z nisstyre: I bet there's even a Scheme somewhere that will autoquote () for you
2019-07-19T23:58:33Z nisstyre: ala clisp
2019-07-19T23:58:40Z nisstyre: bastard child of both
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2019-07-20T00:56:16Z dTal: Is there a lisp/scheme that doesn't throw an error when a symbol is undefined, but simply leaves it unevaluated and returns a quoted form that is algebraically simplified as far as possible?
2019-07-20T00:57:03Z dTal: Such functionality would not be too complicated to write, but I don't think it's possible to directly implement in standard scheme
2019-07-20T00:57:20Z pjb: dTal: that's not the semantics of them, but the point of lisp is precisely so you can easily define a program doing exactly that.
2019-07-20T00:57:51Z pjb: Otherwise, have a look at maxima.
2019-07-20T00:58:48Z nisstyre: dTal: you mean autoquoting?
2019-07-20T01:00:47Z dTal: nisstyre: in a sense - essentially the semantic is that a form containing either an unresolved symbol, or an unresolvable form containing such a symbol, is quoted and returned
2019-07-20T01:01:08Z dTal: Maxima is similar in spirit, but it's essentially a language implemented on *top* of lisp - the lispy part doesn't do this
2019-07-20T01:01:25Z nisstyre: dTal: I think this is mentioned in Lisp In Smalll Pieces somewhere
2019-07-20T01:01:31Z nisstyre: I can look at it for you
2019-07-20T01:01:53Z dTal: nisstyre: oh yes, that would be very interesting - no rush though
2019-07-20T01:02:00Z dTal: it's just a topic I'm generally interested in
2019-07-20T01:03:10Z dTal: also - Maxima only performs mathematical simplification, and its rules for when to defer and when to evaluate are a bit tangled
2019-07-20T01:03:35Z dTal: what I have in mind overlaps with compilation and partial evaluation
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2019-07-20T01:07:14Z dTal: then of course there's the question of doing useful things with the quoted forms, which is not so easy - if I have form A = '(+ a 2) I can't just later do (let ((a 3)) (eval A)) because the binding doesn't work
2019-07-20T01:08:08Z dTal: actually the behaviour there is confusing to me - it seems (eval) respects top-level defines, but not local let-scope? Why is that?
2019-07-20T01:09:01Z dTal: rudybot: (begin (define a 1) (let ((a 2)) (eval 'a)))
2019-07-20T01:09:10Z rudybot: dTal: your sandbox is ready
2019-07-20T01:09:10Z rudybot: dTal: ; Value: 1
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2019-07-20T01:13:10Z pjb: dTal: depends on the environment used by evsal
2019-07-20T01:13:12Z pjb: eval
2019-07-20T01:14:19Z pjb: dTal: in CL, there's no environment parameter, so it can only use the global environment.  in scheme, there's an explicit environment parameter but no standard operator to catch a local environment.  You have a choice between a null-environment, a r5rs-environment, or a global environment.
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2019-07-20T01:19:14Z dTal: I suppose you could jerry-rig a solution by shadowing both eval and every language construct that changes the lexical environment
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2019-07-20T01:20:44Z dTal: actually you don't need to shadow eval, just everything else - i.e. you keep track of the lexical environment manually, then pass it in.
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2019-07-20T01:22:12Z nisstyre: dTal: https://imgur.com/a/SR0nh1A
2019-07-20T01:22:25Z nisstyre: it's brought up in the first chapter
2019-07-20T01:23:13Z dTal: oh this book looks great
2019-07-20T01:25:43Z nisstyre: it is great
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2019-07-20T01:25:48Z nisstyre: would highly recommend getting a copy
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2019-07-20T01:30:28Z nisstyre: dTal: to sum up then, to do what you want, you would have to make every symbol evaluate to itself if it didn't evaluate to a value in the current environment
2019-07-20T01:30:37Z nisstyre: which is basically autoquoting I think
2019-07-20T01:30:46Z nisstyre: like the symbol 3 is the constant 3
2019-07-20T01:30:48Z nisstyre: etc
2019-07-20T01:30:55Z nisstyre: you would have the same thing for `a`
2019-07-20T01:31:14Z nisstyre: a evaluates to a
2019-07-20T01:31:21Z nisstyre: right?
2019-07-20T01:32:29Z dTal: mmm I don't think so, because then what do you do with a
2019-07-20T01:32:42Z nisstyre: well a is a symbol
2019-07-20T01:32:45Z nisstyre: so you do whatever you do with symbols
2019-07-20T01:33:00Z nisstyre: but the thing is this would make reading Scheme code pretty difficult I think
2019-07-20T01:33:23Z nisstyre: because you would have to know what is in scope to know whether a symbol evaluates to something other than itself
2019-07-20T01:34:15Z dTal: well what I'm positing is CAS-like behaviour, where forms containing symbols don't evaluate
2019-07-20T01:34:29Z nisstyre: hmm, ok maybe you have something else in mind then
2019-07-20T01:34:38Z dTal: the quoting of the symbol seems superfluous, because you have to quote the entire form
2019-07-20T01:34:40Z nisstyre: dTal: but
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2019-07-20T01:34:56Z nisstyre: what would you expect the result of this to be: (symbol? (cadr (list 'a '1 2)))
2019-07-20T01:36:15Z nisstyre: (it's #f because numbers evaluate to numbers)
2019-07-20T01:36:30Z jcowan: It sounds like you're groping your way toward a 2-Lisp, in which forms are not evaluated but normalized.  For example, normalizing 'a is 'a, and normalizing '3 gives '3 (which is not the same as 3 at all).
2019-07-20T01:37:13Z dTal: what does "normalized" mean?
2019-07-20T01:37:16Z nisstyre: jcowan: that sounds like an interesting idea
2019-07-20T01:37:21Z nisstyre: dTal: as in term-rewriting I think
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2019-07-20T01:37:29Z nisstyre: instead of evaluation
2019-07-20T01:37:52Z dTal: As in what Mathematica does?
2019-07-20T01:38:02Z nisstyre: I'm not too familiar with Mathematica, but possibly yeah
2019-07-20T01:38:30Z nisstyre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rewriting
2019-07-20T01:38:43Z jcowan: Yes.
2019-07-20T01:38:48Z jcowan: exactly as in term rewriting
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2019-07-20T01:39:16Z jcowan: there are two worlds in a 2Lisp, the world of values and the world of their representation.
2019-07-20T01:40:04Z jcowan: Now Racket and some other Schemes will *print* '(a . b) as the value of (cons 'a 'b), but internally it's still a pair and the interpreter is eval/apply rather than normalize/reduce based.
2019-07-20T01:40:59Z jcowan: In 2Lisp, 3 is a number, '3 is what you could call a numeral, a representation of a number.  This is generalized to all data types.
2019-07-20T01:41:01Z dTal: this does sound like the meat of the issue, yes
2019-07-20T01:41:25Z dTal: this is fascinating
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2019-07-20T01:50:06Z nisstyre: dTal: soon you'll be writing an implementation :p
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2019-07-20T02:14:56Z jcowan: I hope so!  Smith's diss is rather long, and most of it is about reflection and meta-evaluation.  He introduces 2Lisp as a device to simplify the reflective 3Lisp, but it's an interesting language in its own right.  Further work on reflection (Brown, Blond, Black etc.) more or less skips over the idea of separating values and their representations.
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2019-07-20T13:54:48Z gwatt: Zipheir: I wrote a simple macro to parse CLI params.
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2019-07-20T17:37:35Z dTal: jcowan: what's Smith's diss[ertation]? and do you know of any other good starter resources for studying this topic?
2019-07-20T17:38:52Z dTal: If you google "2-lisp" you obviously get a bunch of stuff about lisp-2, which is not the same at all
2019-07-20T17:39:26Z dTal: I've never read anything that hinted at the concept you describe, of a clean distinction between a value and its representation
2019-07-20T17:40:56Z dTal: I'm guess you meant "Procedural reflection in programming languages"
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2019-07-20T17:45:08Z dTal: I guess I'll start with the PDF of that
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2019-07-20T18:00:13Z jcowan: dTal: As you may have seen by now, it's almost 800 pages long, and even the chapter on 2-lisp is a good chunk of it.  There's also a lot of stuff about rails, which are a very interesting data structure, a kind of generalization of lists.
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2019-07-20T18:32:02Z sarna: hi, does scheme support named parameters?
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2019-07-20T18:32:41Z sarna: I tried searching for it, couldn't find anything
2019-07-20T18:39:55Z Zipheir: sarna: You mean in argument lists?  Not standard scheme.
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2019-07-20T18:48:54Z jcowan: There's no direct support, but there's nothing preventing you from writing calls like (do-something 'to this 'with that) either.  There are macros to help you parse arguments like that; it's just not built in.
2019-07-20T18:53:47Z Zipheir: A good thing, imo.  They're ugly.
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2019-07-20T19:15:57Z dTal: Zipheir: why do you think they are ugly?
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2019-07-20T19:19:18Z Zipheir: dTal: Sorry, that wasn't helpful.  Implementing named arguments isn't particularly ugly, but there is something fundamentally wrong with the whole idea.  If a function's behavior is so varied that you neeed to pick and choose arguments by name, the programmer doesn't understand the function.
2019-07-20T19:19:46Z Zipheir: (Or is trying to bundle a set of functions into one function)
2019-07-20T19:21:22Z dTal: I can see your perspective, but how would you organise a function to e.g. open a serial port, where there's sensible defaults but you might also wish to specify parity, stop bits etc
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2019-07-20T19:23:27Z dTal: I don't want to have to throw a 'false' in the appropriate argument location for 'parity' in the 99% case - that just makes the code harder to read
2019-07-20T19:24:08Z Zipheir: I think optional arguments are fine in a language that has them.  If there would be dozens of optionals, use a record.
2019-07-20T19:24:36Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-07-20T19:25:02Z dTal: Hmm, saying they're fine appears to contradict where you said there was something fundamentally wrong with them...
2019-07-20T19:25:50Z Zipheir: Heh.  No, I meant there was something wrong with _named_ parameters.
2019-07-20T19:26:32Z dTal: Aren't optionals neccesarily named? If they're optional, you can't identify them by position.
2019-07-20T19:27:06Z Zipheir: If a function has n arguments but can take n+1 to provide a value which would be defaulted, that seems fine.  It's when there are a bunch of different sets of arguments that it gets weird, since it's now a set of functions.
2019-07-20T19:28:09Z dTal: It's exactly that case where I see the value, since providing every permutation of multiple arguments in seperate functions leads to combinatorial explosion
2019-07-20T19:29:03Z dTal: I don't want an open-with-no-parity-but-with-flow-control, open-with-parity-but-no-flow-control, etc
2019-07-20T19:29:25Z dTal: Especially since all these functions will share 99% functionality.
2019-07-20T19:29:53Z Zipheir: Why not just provide a structured `opts' argument?
2019-07-20T19:30:15Z Zipheir: Then the type of the function isn't insane.
2019-07-20T19:30:28Z dTal: Right, right.
2019-07-20T19:31:24Z dTal: That seems like a straightforward alternative that covers the same use case
2019-07-20T19:31:51Z dTal: I've seen this issue solved fairly elegantly, ironically, in Scheme bindings of C libraries, where binary-OR-ing together flags is common.
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2019-07-20T19:32:51Z Zipheir: Right.
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2019-07-20T19:41:53Z Riastradh: sarna: Racket has a good system for named parameters.  Generally Scheme otherwise has a bad system for named parameters, which is essentially to assemble them into a list and then parse the list at run-time.
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2019-07-20T19:48:54Z Zipheir: dTal: IMHO there's room for a better solution.  Lisp's parameter flexibility is a welcome relief after statically-typed languages; a very bondage-and-discipline aspect of Haskell libraries is the explosion of barely-different functions with slightly different parameters, since there's no better way.
2019-07-20T19:54:47Z nisstyre: Zipheir: I don't think the issue is necessarily static typing in general though
2019-07-20T19:55:14Z nisstyre: just a design wart of Haskell that you end up with 500 typeclass instances if you want to do variadic functions without a language extension
2019-07-20T19:58:08Z Zipheir: nisstyre: Ohhh yeah, the 10,000 instances you have to scroll through for each type in a non-trivial Haskell library...
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2019-07-20T20:15:38Z sarna: Riastradh: oh damn, I wanted to use Gambit :(
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2019-07-20T20:16:28Z sarna: Zipheir: scheme is dynamically typed and I often have problems remembering what the arguments should be
2019-07-20T20:16:36Z sarna: I'm used to statically typed langs
2019-07-20T20:17:23Z sarna: it's worse if evergthing is one type, like, (make-point 1 2 3) - in this case you know it's x y z but with other functions it's not that easy
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2019-07-20T20:23:53Z nisstyre: sarna: I mean you could implement this with a macro that parses an assoc list and then binds the names in your function or something
2019-07-20T20:23:58Z nisstyre: lots of ways to do it
2019-07-20T20:24:09Z nisstyre: obviously it would be nice if it already existed in a well thought out form
2019-07-20T20:26:14Z sarna: nisstyre: yeah but that's not standard, and other people wouldn't be used to that probably
2019-07-20T20:26:48Z nisstyre: yes, but that's lisp for you
2019-07-20T20:27:00Z nisstyre: everyone has their own version of the language
2019-07-20T20:28:18Z sarna: that's lots of relearning to do for me :^)
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2019-07-20T20:33:33Z mdhughes: (do-stuff (stuff-opts "foo" 42 #\x)) is not better than (do-stuff "foo" 42 #\x). So if you have keywords in the opts record, you may as well have them in the function directly.
2019-07-20T20:35:05Z mdhughes: And nobody wants to do a big let structure to set each field.
2019-07-20T20:35:36Z nisstyre: mdhughes: I think they want something like (do-stuff '((x . 12) (y . 14)))
2019-07-20T20:35:52Z nisstyre: but with less syntactic noise
2019-07-20T20:36:38Z sarna: (substr :start 2 :end 5 "test string")
2019-07-20T20:36:41Z sarna: something like that
2019-07-20T20:37:07Z mdhughes: Sure, so that's a keyword system, which is the more reasonable answer.
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2019-07-20T20:38:07Z sarna: now I see Gerbil has support for them, which is very nice
2019-07-20T20:38:22Z mdhughes: And Chicken.
2019-07-20T20:40:09Z sarna: that's cool
2019-07-20T20:40:11Z gwatt: and guile and racket, but they're all slightly different, both in syntax and behavior.
2019-07-20T20:41:39Z sarna: yeah, I figured they're pretty different
2019-07-20T20:41:49Z sarna: especially racket
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2019-07-20T20:44:22Z nisstyre: yeah racket is like this:  (define (point #:x x #:y y #:z z) (list x y z))
2019-07-20T20:44:31Z nisstyre: and then you'd do (point #:z 12 #:y 14 #:x 100)
2019-07-20T20:44:41Z nisstyre: I don't know if I like the syntax
2019-07-20T20:45:04Z nisstyre: it's a bit hard to read unless you split it up across more than one line
2019-07-20T20:45:27Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Obviously that's a simple example.  Record structures are easy to understand and bundle a bunch of relevant options; procedure arguments need to be looked into carefully.
2019-07-20T20:48:02Z Riastradh: Racket has better _semantics_: named parameters and positional parameters are interpreted entirely separately, so you never accidentally pass a keyword where you meant to pass a positional parameter or vice versa.
2019-07-20T20:48:14Z Riastradh: And you can't accidentally pass a named parameter by writing (f x y z).
2019-07-20T20:48:39Z Riastradh: (I find #: ugly too, but that's not peculiar to Racket nor necessary for this semantics.)
2019-07-20T20:50:53Z Zipheir: Augh, yeah, that's a nasty bug with the plist approach.
2019-07-20T21:04:54Z Zipheir: You could use string-copy to make unique parameter keywords, I suppose.  But those would have to be exposed to the caller.
2019-07-20T21:05:53Z Zipheir: (define $name (string-copy "name")) (my-proc $name "bob"), e.g.
2019-07-20T21:07:31Z Zipheir: Then my-proc just has to check for keyword arguments with eq? and there's no possibility of a collision.
2019-07-20T21:07:37Z Zipheir: Sorry, thinking out loud.
2019-07-20T21:09:04Z aeth: What I like about the plist approach is the inherent simplicity of it. This is where Scheme actually normally wins since e.g. Scheme defines a lot of things as simple lambdas.
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2019-07-20T21:09:43Z aeth: It also gives you destructuring-bind, which I miss in other Lisps.
2019-07-20T21:10:54Z Zipheir: Scheme doesn't have destructuring-bind...
2019-07-20T21:11:09Z aeth: Yes.
2019-07-20T21:11:18Z Zipheir: Oh, meaning you can do it with plists.
2019-07-20T21:11:31Z aeth: I mean, the CL lambda list approach makes destructuring-bind natural... and it can use &key on plists
2019-07-20T21:11:53Z aeth: (no alist support, though)
2019-07-20T21:14:21Z aeth: It's very useful for turning macro bodies into structured data, e.g. making objects based on lists of plists
2019-07-20T21:15:23Z Zipheir: Ah, I see.
2019-07-20T21:15:32Z aeth: The main drawback is you might have something like :color :red in a plist and it's only clear from the newline which part is the key and which part is the value
2019-07-20T21:17:21Z Zipheir: It seems like the only way to really make parameters and parameter names disjoint is to add it to the language semantics.
2019-07-20T21:17:30Z Zipheir: à la Racket
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2019-07-20T21:19:54Z aeth: Well, in CL, my example could be :color 'red but now you have to have the macro convert that symbol into another symbol before processing using symbol-name since it's your-package::red
2019-07-20T21:20:40Z aeth: Only LOOP seems to let you use any package's symbols. At least for common macros.
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2019-07-20T21:22:40Z Zipheir: Oof.
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2019-07-20T21:24:21Z Zipheir: Well, I like the string-copy idea.  It's not possible to write parameter-name? since they're just strings, but a procedure that understands keyword strings can't fsck up and use them as values.
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2019-07-20T21:35:39Z Riastradh: Zipheir: String-copy doesn't help guarantee that (f x y z) won't accidentally pass a named parameter you didn't mean to pass.
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2019-07-20T21:36:53Z Zipheir: Riastradh: How so?  i.e. the case where f doesn't understand some keyword parameter and treats it as a value?
2019-07-20T21:37:02Z Zipheir: 'Cause I can't see anyway to fix that.
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2019-07-20T21:37:34Z Riastradh: In Racket, (f x y z) is guaranteed to pass only positional parameters.
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2019-07-20T21:39:37Z Zipheir: (define $everything-after-this-token-is-positional-goddamit (string-copy "foo")) :)
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2019-07-20T21:40:05Z Riastradh: Even with your string-copy mechanism, if y happens to be what you named $name, then there might be one positional parameter and one named parameter (whose value is z), but you can't tell that just by looking at the expression (f x y z) lexically -- you have to know what the run-time values of x, y, and z are.
2019-07-20T21:41:04Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-07-20T21:41:06Z Riastradh: This is inherent to any mechanism where named parameters are implemented using positional parameters as a medium and parsing them.
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2019-07-21T04:34:44Z jcowan: It seems like all one to me whether you pass an opaque config object, an a-list or p-list, or use keyword arguments (which are pretty much a p-list).
2019-07-21T04:36:41Z jcowan: The problem with the config object is that you have to configure it by calling mutators, otherwise you have just pushed off the problem onto the constructor for the object.
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2019-07-21T09:20:15Z einzinger: hi!
2019-07-21T09:22:03Z einzinger: I am trying to make a scheme compiler
2019-07-21T09:22:52Z einzinger: targeting the browser
2019-07-21T09:24:20Z einzinger: the primary aspect I want to prototype is work around the absence of proper tail call optimisation in chrome
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2019-07-21T09:25:52Z einzinger: so my plan is the following translate let/letrec and call/cc to lambda, rewrite it in Continuation Passing Style
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2019-07-21T09:26:52Z einzinger: that would lead to lot of lambdas (that will be compiled to JS functions)
2019-07-21T09:27:48Z einzinger: my question is: is there a way to eliminate some lambdas somwhow?
2019-07-21T09:28:44Z einzinger: maybe I am at the wrong place, let me know if I should ask my question somewhere else
2019-07-21T09:30:50Z amz3: einzinger: translating regular lambdas to CPS is not trivial
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2019-07-21T09:33:41Z amz3: einzinger: do you know nano pass framework?
2019-07-21T09:34:19Z einzinger: hi amz3
2019-07-21T09:34:53Z einzinger: yes I use nanopassframework in racket
2019-07-21T09:38:09Z amz3: try #racket channel if you don't get an answer here
2019-07-21T09:50:50Z amz3: einzinger: https://jlongster.com/Compiling-to-Javascript-in-CPS,-Can-We-Optimize-
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2019-07-21T10:13:25Z amz3: tl;dr: Read LISP In Small Pieces
2019-07-21T10:14:02Z einzinger: yeah
2019-07-21T10:14:52Z einzinger: I read about LISP but the book is old and look ugly. Thanks for the link!
2019-07-21T10:15:10Z einzinger: okthxbye
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2019-07-21T10:45:44Z ggole: CPS isn't really that hard
2019-07-21T10:51:57Z amz3: here is a convo on HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3960488
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2019-07-21T13:13:15Z amz3: there is second part to that article https://jlongster.com/The-Quest-for-Javascript-CPS--Part-2
2019-07-21T13:13:57Z amz3: I think I am going to give it a try
2019-07-21T13:14:08Z amz3: after all, it is sunday :)
2019-07-21T13:15:33Z ggole: Hmm, that's an unusual application for CPS
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2019-07-21T13:27:51Z amz3: ggole: why is that? what is unusual?
2019-07-21T13:28:39Z ggole: The presence of a first-class continuation for each step in the program
2019-07-21T13:29:55Z amz3: that is to allow the one-step debugger I think
2019-07-21T13:30:35Z ggole: Yeah
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2019-07-21T14:03:18Z weld: hi, any hints what's wrong with (map (lambda (f) (f 0)) '(1+)) ?
2019-07-21T14:07:46Z Riastradh: weld: You're applying a symbol, not a procedure.  The ' mark yields a literal without evaluating it, where (...) means lists, rather than evaluating procedure application, and 1+ means a symbol, rather than a evaluating variable reference.
2019-07-21T14:07:55Z Riastradh: weld: Try (map (lambda (f) (f 0)) (list 1+)) instead.
2019-07-21T14:17:43Z weld: Riastradh: thanks!
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2019-07-21T18:17:25Z RioOfTheWind: hello everyone, I'm trying to read SCIP, I was wondering if it's okay to ask questions about it here.  I'm really stuck.
2019-07-21T18:17:41Z rain1: absolutely ok
2019-07-21T18:18:39Z RioOfTheWind: okay thank you
2019-07-21T18:22:11Z amz3`: +1
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2019-07-21T18:45:27Z Zipheir: rudybot: Question answered, I guess.
2019-07-21T18:45:34Z rudybot: Zipheir: Well I guess the question answered itself
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2019-07-21T19:24:44Z amz3`: rudybot: spot on!
2019-07-21T19:24:46Z rudybot: amz3`: I guess because, if you're already looking at snurk.el, and find-function-on-key takes you to a different spot in that file, it leaves the mark where you were before
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2019-07-22T03:52:45Z lockywolf_: Friends, does HTDP 2019-02-24 exist as a pdf?
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2019-07-22T19:40:52Z python476: 'hoi
2019-07-22T19:41:28Z python476: anybody knows about graph theory schemes papers / libs ?
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2019-07-22T20:07:47Z gnomon: python476, maybe ask JordiGH over in #emacs?
2019-07-22T20:07:54Z python476: hi gn
2019-07-22T20:07:57Z python476: gnomon
2019-07-22T20:08:08Z python476: JordiGH likes graphs ? I know he's into maths
2019-07-22T20:08:35Z python476: I'll ping him, thanks
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2019-07-22T20:10:42Z gnomon: python476, 👍!
2019-07-22T20:13:37Z python476: such utf
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2019-07-23T01:13:50Z dTal: jcowan: "Procedural reflection" is really something - it feels halfway like some sort of great work of philosophy
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2019-07-23T01:15:58Z dTal: there's a, dare I say, Hofstaderian flavor to it
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2019-07-23T02:22:14Z jcowan: dTal: Indeed, he is a philosopher as well as a computer scientist.
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2019-07-24T09:30:46Z amz3: https://blog.theincredibleholk.org/blog/2013/07/09/why-write-compilers-in-scheme/
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2019-07-24T11:40:45Z python476: hoi
2019-07-24T11:40:52Z python476: hoi amz3
2019-07-24T11:41:09Z amz3: python476: o/
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2019-07-24T13:19:42Z jcowan: coi
2019-07-24T13:25:57Z brendyyn: scheme is the artificial language?
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2019-07-24T13:30:23Z jcowan: In the sense that Java is, yes.
2019-07-24T13:30:32Z jcowan: Except it's been around a lot longer.
2019-07-24T13:30:52Z brendyyn: in what sense is that
2019-07-24T13:31:49Z jcowan: It's a language consciously created by a small number of people for the expression of computer programs.
2019-07-24T13:40:42Z python476: srfi for lojban.scm
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2019-07-24T13:56:06Z X-Scale: brendyyn: what do you mean by artificial language ?
2019-07-24T13:56:43Z brendyyn: X-Scale: coi is a greeting in the lojban artificial human language. john has dabbled in it.
2019-07-24T13:56:57Z brendyyn: dabbled = wrote a grammar book on it
2019-07-24T13:57:02Z ecraven: brendyyn: I think "dabbled" is not quite the right word :D
2019-07-24T14:01:41Z dTal: jcowan: are there no public implementations of 2lisp / 3lisp ?
2019-07-24T14:02:01Z jcowan: AFAIK no implementations at all.
2019-07-24T14:02:27Z dTal: whyever not? are they not well-defined enough?
2019-07-24T14:02:46Z jcowan: hoi is a greeting in the related artificial (human) language Loglan
2019-07-24T14:02:53Z jcowan: NKNC
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2019-07-24T14:06:24Z dTal: this appears to be an imlpementation http://www.p-cos.net/documents/s32008.pdf
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2019-07-24T14:21:11Z python476: 3lisp as in reflexive tower ?
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2019-07-24T14:22:35Z dTal: *reflective, yes
2019-07-24T14:22:42Z python476: woops
2019-07-24T14:23:04Z python476: one day I'll finish this book, and n. amin black paper
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2019-07-24T14:25:16Z dTal: I'm just really surprised that someone wrote a paper saying that lisp is inelegantly designed, fixes it and writes an enormous philosophical justification of it, people notice and cite it a few times, and then it just... dies out?
2019-07-24T14:25:52Z dTal: just keep plugging away with EVAL from 1958?
2019-07-24T14:26:25Z python476: dTal: reminds me of the Club of Rome report
2019-07-24T14:26:42Z python476: societies are weird, good things vanishes, only to reappear later some times
2019-07-24T14:28:17Z dTal: there are so, so many toy lisps, and uncountably many toy languages in general, and yet not a single 2lisp or 3lisp on github
2019-07-24T14:28:59Z python476: "so far"
2019-07-24T14:29:11Z python476: who knows, there might be a future reflective trend in the coming
2019-07-24T14:29:29Z python476: just like there were almost no FP languages mainstream 10 years ago
2019-07-24T14:29:52Z python476: society absorbs concepts at its own pace
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2019-07-24T14:52:57Z amz3: what does reflective mean in this context? it allows for introspection?
2019-07-24T14:54:59Z python476: I never read B. Smith book (only the first pages) but from what I recall from college: reflection ~= introspection, intercession and something else
2019-07-24T14:55:07Z dTal: haven't got to that bit yet :p
2019-07-24T14:55:43Z dTal: I'm mostly interested in the distinction it draws between a thing, and the notation of a thing
2019-07-24T14:56:42Z dTal: ultimately I want a lisp-like with CAS-type semantics, where unbound symbols just get returned and the design makes it easy to manipulate mathematical expressions on a symbolic level
2019-07-24T14:57:52Z dTal: CAS libraries for existing languages tend to feel like entirely different languages bolted on, since their evaluation semantics must neccesarily differ
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2019-07-24T15:20:06Z jcowan: A good step would be to OCR the diss, but there's an awful lot of pages.  I have access to OCR, but that would be pretty noticeable.
2019-07-24T15:21:12Z ecraven: which diss?
2019-07-24T15:21:23Z jcowan: 2Lisp is the part that interests me as well, but clearly to BCS it was just a stepping stone to 3Lisp.  {Black,Brown,Blonde} demonstrate that you can do reflection without the notation/value distinction
2019-07-24T15:22:47Z jcowan: ecraven:  Brian Cantwell Smith's at <http://publications.csail.mit.edu/lcs/pubs/pdf/MIT-LCS-TR-272.pdf>, but don't try to swallow it whole
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2019-07-24T15:24:43Z ecraven: hm.. I'll try tesseract or cuneiform on it
2019-07-24T15:25:27Z python476: I never tesseracted that many pages
2019-07-24T15:25:45Z ecraven: neither did I, but sometimes they work fine
2019-07-24T15:26:14Z python476: is the error rate low enough ?
2019-07-24T15:26:36Z python476: I used to scan product sheets, I stopped because fixing them was as long
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2019-07-24T15:49:09Z ecraven: slow going, but it seems to work ok.
2019-07-24T15:49:13Z ecraven: I'll post things once it's done
2019-07-24T15:49:21Z ecraven: pdfimages, pnmrotate, then cuneiform
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2019-07-24T15:56:43Z jcowan: Awesome.
2019-07-24T15:56:57Z jcowan: With that, someone could extract the various code snippets.
2019-07-24T15:57:00Z ecraven: well, might not work well after all, but we'll see
2019-07-24T15:57:28Z ecraven: my unix-fu is weak, how would I run pnmrotate < foo > bar in parallel?
2019-07-24T15:57:32Z ecraven: maybe write a makefile :P
2019-07-24T15:57:50Z ecraven: xargs or gnu parallel might do this, but no idea how to achieve this with input and output redirection
2019-07-24T15:59:16Z weinholt: put them all in the background with & :)
2019-07-24T15:59:29Z ecraven: my machine doesn't have enough cores for that :P
2019-07-24T15:59:41Z ecraven: but a makefile really is a good solution, that way I can abort and continue
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2019-07-24T16:00:35Z python476 happy to witness the birth of something
2019-07-24T16:02:42Z ecraven: woohoo, I just love make!
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2019-07-24T16:06:01Z amz3: makers make good makefile
2019-07-24T16:06:25Z ecraven: unfortunately my Makefile-fu is not very strong either :-)
2019-07-24T16:13:09Z ecraven: hm.. quality with cuneiform out-of-the-box is not ideal
2019-07-24T16:16:01Z ecraven: let's see how tesseract does
2019-07-24T16:16:18Z ecraven: unfortunately I have no idea how to train tesseract properly, that would help a lot
2019-07-24T16:16:53Z ecraven: nice, tesseract is slow, but does very well
2019-07-24T16:21:30Z ecraven: hm.. all formatting is however lost with tesseract, no italic or bold or headlines
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2019-07-24T16:30:44Z ecraven: sorry, have to go, I'll finish up tomorrow, then post it here!
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2019-07-24T17:41:49Z rain2: I have a tool that replaces makefiles
2019-07-24T17:42:04Z rain2: https://github.com/rain-1/makes
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2019-07-24T17:47:38Z Zipheir: Why replace makefiles?
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2019-07-24T17:52:39Z gwatt: rain2: how does one use your make replacement?
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2019-07-24T18:07:10Z python476: gwatt: sudo make install make-replacement obv.
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2019-07-24T18:10:05Z gwatt: heh
2019-07-24T18:12:11Z amz3: not bad, but I use make for autocomplete in bash... mostly..
2019-07-24T18:20:36Z Zipheir: make is brilliant.
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2019-07-24T18:46:54Z python476: make is way too old to be critized anyway
2019-07-24T18:47:49Z jcowan: foof calls it "a beautiful little Prolog for the file system".
2019-07-24T18:47:53Z jcowan agrees
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2019-07-24T18:49:06Z python476: I never thought of make with prolog in mind ..
2019-07-24T18:49:25Z python476: but rule dependencies .. yeah, similar
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2019-07-24T18:55:10Z python476: etymo pun of the day
2019-07-24T18:55:36Z python476: File comes from latin Filum, which means Thread
2019-07-24T18:55:48Z python476: ancestral semantic slip
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2019-07-24T20:27:35Z python476: found some nice slides to recap reflection aspects (sic) and meanings https://marcusdenker.de/talks/09DCCLecture/09DCC-Reflection.pdf
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2019-07-24T21:19:25Z kori: when is it desireable to use defines inside defines over a let*?
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2019-07-24T21:25:40Z jcowan: kori: Internal defines are always equivalent to a letrec*, so it's a question of what you think is more readable.
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2019-07-24T21:31:26Z amz3: i prefer nested lambdas over define in define or letrect*
2019-07-24T21:31:55Z kori: I prefer letrec* myself
2019-07-24T21:34:11Z str1ngs: a nested define keeps it's scope within its parent define?
2019-07-24T21:38:35Z amz3: yes
2019-07-24T21:38:55Z str1ngs:  good to know, thank you
2019-07-24T21:38:56Z amz3: that is lexical scoping, but it keeps the whole closure that the thing with define in define
2019-07-24T21:39:14Z amz3: similarly to letrec whereas lambdas ...
2019-07-24T21:41:18Z python476: how many lisps do that ?
2019-07-24T21:41:32Z python476: I think elisp (I know) turns nested defuns into global ones (I know)
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2019-07-24T21:58:40Z Zipheir: Get that lexical scope!
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2019-07-24T23:04:56Z RioOfTheWind: hello
2019-07-24T23:05:41Z RioOfTheWind: I'm trying to setup Dr Racket to work with "Simply Scheme", I entered in #lang planet dyoo/simply-scheme:2 into the top box is that all i have to do.
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2019-07-24T23:12:34Z Zipheir: RioOfTheWind: Does Simply Scheme need a special #lang?  I thought it mostly used a subset of standard Scheme.
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2019-07-24T23:13:17Z RioOfTheWind: It says in the intructor's chapter to download load a file then test by entering ( random 5 ), if done corectly it will produce an error.
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2019-07-24T23:15:23Z Zipheir: Well, this seems to be the source for all the non-standard functions in the book: https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ssch27/appendix-simply.html
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2019-07-24T23:18:19Z Zipheir: RioOfTheWind: But yeah, Yoo's simply-scheme lang should do it.
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2019-07-24T23:22:08Z RioOfTheWind: I put "#lang simply-scheme
2019-07-24T23:22:08Z RioOfTheWind: (se (butlast (bf "this"))
2019-07-24T23:22:08Z RioOfTheWind:     "world")
2019-07-24T23:22:14Z RioOfTheWind: in the top box
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2019-07-24T23:22:21Z RioOfTheWind: what were the name of the top and bottom box again?
2019-07-24T23:22:31Z RioOfTheWind: This is the Dr Racket program I'm using
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2019-07-24T23:24:18Z Zipheir: RioOfTheWind: `Definitions' and `interactions', IIRC.
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2019-07-24T23:28:15Z RioOfTheWind: Thank you Zipheir, I put #lang simply-scheme in the definitions window, then had to click the Update button an apparetnly that loads the dialect from github.  Does this sound right to you guys.
2019-07-24T23:29:07Z RioOfTheWind: When I enter "(read-line) a box with an "edit" button to the left of it appears, is this the equvilant of "()" that the book says should appear if the module is loaded right?
2019-07-24T23:29:09Z Zipheir: Uh, possibly. :)  I know next to nothing about DrRacket, beyond using it for The Little Typer.
2019-07-24T23:30:50Z Zipheir: That doesn't sound right.
2019-07-24T23:31:21Z RioOfTheWind: Which part doesn't sound right Zipheir?
2019-07-24T23:31:40Z Zipheir: It should evaluate to (), if I'm reading the code right.
2019-07-24T23:32:45Z Zipheir: That sounds like you're calling Racket's built-in `read-line' and it's expecting input.
2019-07-24T23:33:03Z Zipheir: Rather confusingly, SS's read-line doesn't actually read input.
2019-07-24T23:33:27Z RioOfTheWind: oh darn, so I don't have the module loaded correctly then :(
2019-07-24T23:33:35Z Zipheir: I suspect not.
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2019-07-24T23:34:56Z Zipheir: RioOfTheWind: See if `whoops' is defined.
2019-07-24T23:36:07Z RioOfTheWind: > whoops
2019-07-24T23:36:08Z RioOfTheWind: #<procedure:whoops>
2019-07-24T23:36:16Z RioOfTheWind: that was the output
2019-07-24T23:36:21Z Zipheir: Looks good.
2019-07-24T23:36:27Z RioOfTheWind: Oh goodie!
2019-07-24T23:36:30Z RioOfTheWind: Thank you!
2019-07-24T23:37:10Z Zipheir: I didn't do anything!  But it looks like you've got the simply-scheme library all set.
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2019-07-24T23:44:42Z RioOfTheWind: You helped me confirm it, I would have spent the next several hours trying to confirm if it was loaded right or not. :)
2019-07-24T23:46:32Z Zipheir: Hah, np.  I figured `whoops' was very unlikely to be a already-existing Racket procedure. :)
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2019-07-25T01:24:42Z dieggsy: is there some sort of style convention for record names? i had an issue where i have a 'map' record for a game map, and it interfered with the map function. took me a second to figure out.
2019-07-25T01:25:23Z dieggsy: I think i've seen stuff like <record-name> before (which i guess is printed as #<<record-name>>). just asking what you guys use
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2019-07-25T01:54:02Z evhan: dieggsy: Just do what feels right. :)
2019-07-25T01:54:17Z evhan: I think <foo> is probably common since it was used in the original records SRFI.
2019-07-25T01:54:44Z dieggsy: evhan: well, the reason i ask is cause what felt right was just 'foo' until i ran into a record with the same name as a standard procedure, hah
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2019-07-25T08:26:33Z ecraven: is there a destructuring bind srfi?
2019-07-25T08:26:51Z ecraven: or anything resembling a "standardised" form for destructuring-bind?
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2019-07-25T09:29:56Z ecraven: here's the OCR from yesterday: https://file.io/TEEwOw
2019-07-25T09:30:02Z ecraven: totally unchecked, just ran tesseract on every page
2019-07-25T09:32:21Z python476: hi ecraven
2019-07-25T09:32:33Z python476: sure the url is correct ?
2019-07-25T09:32:49Z ecraven: hm.. I tried, but it doesn't work now
2019-07-25T09:33:08Z python476: at least we're on the same
2019-07-25T09:33:09Z python476: page.
2019-07-25T09:33:35Z ecraven: this one? https://file.io/pAucsF
2019-07-25T09:33:56Z ecraven: hehe, sorry.. seems file.io only allows *one* view/download
2019-07-25T09:34:03Z ecraven: most pastebins don't accept 1.6M files :-/
2019-07-25T09:34:05Z python476: maybe :)
2019-07-25T09:34:27Z python476: maybe try file.pizza
2019-07-25T09:34:33Z python476: transient sharing
2019-07-25T09:34:41Z python476: through web torrent
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2019-07-25T09:35:08Z ecraven: https://file.pizza/meatballs-bbqchicken-bluecheese-prosciutto
2019-07-25T09:35:12Z ecraven: interesting, I like that technology!
2019-07-25T09:35:19Z ecraven: jcowan: ^
2019-07-25T09:35:26Z ecraven: should work until I close my browser
2019-07-25T09:36:12Z python476: ecraven: yeah, online as long as the tab is open on your side (except exceptions..)
2019-07-25T09:36:20Z python476: just downloaded it, no issues
2019-07-25T09:36:22Z python476: nice output
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2019-07-25T09:37:35Z python476: very nice 1.6MB for 700 pages :) veeery nice
2019-07-25T09:38:41Z ecraven: well, it's not very good quality
2019-07-25T09:38:54Z ecraven: lots of systematic problems that should be simple to fix
2019-07-25T09:39:06Z ecraven: also all formatting is lost, no italic, for example
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2019-07-25T09:39:38Z ecraven: aand I accidentally closed the window ;) https://file.pizza/coriander-pineapple-tomatoes-peanuts
2019-07-25T09:41:11Z python476: time to unleash old lisp NLP libs to fix the OCR
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2019-07-25T09:53:59Z dTal: in case people missed it the first time around, this paper seems to contain a complete implementation of 3-Lisp: http://www.p-cos.net/documents/s32008.pdf
2019-07-25T09:54:41Z dTal: as well as being a lot more straightforward and easy to read, from an implementor's perspective
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2019-07-25T09:56:24Z dTal: the abstract says "We attempt to untangle Smith's original account of procedural reflection and make it accessible to a new and wider audience."
2019-07-25T09:57:01Z ecraven: that paper conveniently contains actual text, pdftotext works fine on it ;)
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2019-07-25T10:26:09Z python476: thanks for the link
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2019-07-25T11:09:50Z amz3: +1 dTal ecraven
2019-07-25T11:11:44Z jcowan: dTal: I'll have to read that paper when I am not 3/5 asleep
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2019-07-25T14:31:45Z amz3: I compiled a subset of scheme to javascript, here is a benchmark of the compiled code https://jsperf.com/ruse-scheme-compiler-factorial
2019-07-25T14:32:09Z amz3: As you might notice, it support tail call via trampoline (and call/cc)
2019-07-25T14:32:23Z amz3: it rely on nanopass framework
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2019-07-25T14:34:35Z amz3: the interesting part of the nanopass transformation starts here https://github.com/scheme-live/ruse-scheme/blob/master/ruse.scm#L986
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2019-07-25T14:46:27Z justinethier: ecraven Just curious, are there any plans to do a new run of the R7RS benchmarks?
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2019-07-25T15:12:32Z python476: amz3: nice
2019-07-25T15:12:46Z amz3: tx
2019-07-25T15:20:43Z dTal: amz3: I like the fox
2019-07-25T15:41:19Z ecraven: justinethier: definitely, I've wanted to do them for a few months now, but never got around to updating all systems ;
2019-07-25T15:42:31Z Riastradh: ecraven: Closest to destructuring-bind is probably foof's match.
2019-07-25T15:43:49Z ecraven: Riastradh: is that this https://github.com/arcfide/foof/blob/master/match.scm
2019-07-25T15:44:14Z justinethier: ecraven - Great, thanks! I get that its a pain though, that's a lot of Schemes to update...
2019-07-25T15:44:34Z ecraven: well, most of them are not hard, but I ran into some problems with racket
2019-07-25T15:44:50Z ecraven: I still haven't taken the time to just move everything to podman
2019-07-25T15:45:03Z Riastradh: ecraven: Dunno, whatever you can find at synthcode.com.
2019-07-25T15:45:42Z ecraven: hm.. 502 bad gateway..
2019-07-25T15:45:48Z ecraven: and foof is not online :-/
2019-07-25T15:45:55Z badkins: Exception: invalid literals list in (syntax-rules (_ ___ quote quasiquote ? $ ...) ((match-two v () g s (...) ...) (if (...) (...) fk)) ((match-two v (...) g s (...) ...) (if (...) (...) fk)) ((match-two v (...) g s sk ...) (match-quasiquote v p g s sk ...)) ((match-two v (...) g s (...) ...) (sk ... i)) ...) at line 124, char 3 of match.scm
2019-07-25T15:46:19Z badkins: That's the error I receive when trying to load match.scm into Chez 9.5.2
2019-07-25T15:46:33Z justinethier: ah, containers seem the way to go. suppose that doesn't necessarily solve the installation problem, though
2019-07-25T15:46:45Z ecraven: _ is not a valid literal in chez, I think
2019-07-25T15:46:52Z ecraven: justinethier: no, but that way it's all documented
2019-07-25T15:46:58Z justinethier: sure
2019-07-25T15:47:05Z justinethier: what kinds of problems did you have with racket?
2019-07-25T15:47:49Z ecraven: I installed r7rs, but it didn't work, some runtime errors
2019-07-25T15:47:58Z ecraven: I'll retry, just updating everything now
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2019-07-25T15:49:36Z justinethier: good deal, thanks :)
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2019-07-25T16:06:14Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks, match-let does great ;)
2019-07-25T16:07:49Z ecraven: still same error in racket :-/ http://ix.io/1Ps3
2019-07-25T16:08:04Z ecraven: I'll keep trying tomorrow ;)
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2019-07-25T16:10:24Z justinethier: thanks :)
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2019-07-25T16:45:18Z amz3: badkins: there is a #chez channel
2019-07-25T16:46:10Z badkins: amz3: thanks - I'm already in it. I just posted the above error because of the comment in match.scm that stated it was portable.
2019-07-25T16:46:53Z badkins: I should've made that clear i.e. I'm not looking for help in solving the problem.
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2019-07-25T17:01:10Z gwatt: I think it's portable across r5rs but not r6rs, since you can't use `_' and `...' in literals lists for macros
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2019-07-27T09:23:21Z amerigo: hi, can someone tell me why this matching regexp with derivatives program http://matt.might.net/articles/implementation-of-regular-expression-matching-in-scheme-with-derivatives/
2019-07-27T09:23:26Z amerigo: is not matching (regex-match '(seq (rep a) (seq (rep a) a)) '(a a a a a))
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2019-07-27T09:26:15Z pjb: amerigo: it's ambiguous. It could match (() (a a a a a)) or ((a) (a a a a)) or ((a a) (a a a))  or ((a a a) (a a))  or ((a a a a) (a)).
2019-07-27T09:27:10Z pjb: amerigo: but the reason why it doesn't match is:
2019-07-27T09:27:35Z pjb: it first tries to match ((a a a a a) ()) which doesn't work, since the second subexpression must have at least one a.
2019-07-27T09:28:32Z pjb: You could try: (regex-match '(seq (seq a (rep a))  (rep a)) '(a a a a a))  then   ((a a a a a) ()) would match.
2019-07-27T09:29:15Z pjb: (well modulo perhaps some parenthesis errors on my part, sorry.)
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2019-07-27T09:30:46Z wasamasa: looks like resolving that one needs backtracking
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2019-07-27T09:31:30Z amerigo: i wanted to test it for an expression providedf here: https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/ becuase thompson's nfa algorithm is supposedly based on continuously taking derivatives and expressions like a?a?a?a?aaaa blow up backtrakcing algorithms. Yet this solution with derivatives don't work on patterns like this
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2019-07-27T09:33:48Z amerigo: i meant this one https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
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2019-07-27T10:51:37Z rain2: amerigo: the derivatives method will work on all regexes
2019-07-27T10:51:58Z rain2: I don't think thompson's nfa algorithm uses derivatives
2019-07-27T10:52:33Z rain2: it works by processing the regex with multiple cursors at once (as opposed to a DFA which would only require one cursor at a time)
2019-07-27T10:52:49Z rain2: or by backtracking which is sort of equivalent
2019-07-27T10:53:36Z rain2: something important for the derivative method to terminate is that you need to check for regex equivalence up to similarity, apply the congruence closure of some basic regex simplification rules
2019-07-27T10:54:36Z rain2: (at least that applies for regex -> DFA conversion with derivatives, if you are just matching you don't need to do it - but it is still worth applying simplifications so the expressions don't grow)
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2019-07-27T12:07:12Z UchihaMadara: Hello everybody
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2019-07-27T15:34:12Z amerigo: https://pastebin.com/8cugVDNf
2019-07-27T15:34:18Z amerigo: this is what i get after expansion
2019-07-27T15:35:03Z amerigo: it should match epsilon with the lines 11-12
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2019-07-27T16:56:32Z amz3: amerigo: where are the definitions?
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2019-07-27T17:00:53Z amz3: also don't use pastebin it is a bad pastebin service ;)
2019-07-27T17:01:01Z amz3: pastebin.com is ba.
2019-07-27T17:01:03Z amz3: pastebin.com is bad/
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2019-07-27T17:45:08Z amz3: can you recommend any ressource regarding graph rewriting in the context of compilers?
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2019-07-27T17:47:12Z amz3: context: I have applied continuation-passing-style transform to some scheme code using nanopass framework and now I would like to apply some involving transformations that require knowledge about the whole program
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2019-07-27T18:04:59Z ggole: There's a bunch of literature about graph rewriting as a means of implementing lazy languages efficiently, but that doesn't seem like what you are after
2019-07-27T18:06:16Z ggole: There's also literature on graph IRs, but same deal
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2019-07-27T18:47:04Z amz3: ggole-: "graph intermediate representation" is helpful term, I will keep look, i get some llvm related stuff
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2019-07-27T18:51:32Z amz3: here is something https://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/suresh/502-Fall2008/papers/shivers-cfa.pdf
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2019-07-27T18:55:08Z amz3: exactly: "After CPS conversion, the compiler need only know “one great thing” - how to compile lambdas very well. This approach has an interesting effect on the prag- matics of Scheme compilers."
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2019-07-27T19:20:38Z ggole_: amz3: Cliff Click's graph IR papers are interesting, there's also a really neat paper on an unusual predicated graph IR called Pegasus
2019-07-27T19:21:35Z ggole_: I don't think there is any particularly close relation to CPS though
2019-07-27T19:23:00Z amz3: tx
2019-07-27T19:23:44Z amz3: I will figure it out
2019-07-27T19:24:08Z amz3: it seems complicated because it's the first time.
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2019-07-28T14:03:04Z amz3: is the _only_ difference between letrec and letrec* the order of evaluation?
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2019-07-28T15:30:42Z Riastradh: amz3: Order of evaluation _and_ initialization.
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2019-07-28T15:31:30Z Riastradh: amz3: One could implement (letrec ((x a) (y b)) ...) by (let ((x 0) (y 0)) (let* ((t a) (t b)) (set! x t) (set! y u)) (let () ...)) [note the let*] and it would still not be letrec*.
2019-07-28T15:31:51Z Riastradh: Sorry, should have been (let* ((t a) (u b)) ...) [wrote t where I meant u].
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2019-07-28T15:37:23Z amz3: thanks
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2019-07-28T17:59:37Z GlenK: hiya.  I'm currently working on problem 1.16 from sicp.  here's what I initially came up with: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/OnJqxS3I-6c3Cqh8f4R~6A
2019-07-28T18:00:18Z GlenK: but when I got to looking at it, while it's pretty much correct, my a variable isn't exactly accumulating anything.  It's just sitting there being 1 and I could really just get rid of it.
2019-07-28T18:01:22Z GlenK: anyhow, today I came up with this instead:  https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/KviS~rtOAs0mOwaTRoKf4Q
2019-07-28T18:02:13Z GlenK: And that works too.  But now I'm sorta confused.  I'm not sure I really came up with an iterative solution due to my recursive call to iterative-fast-expt.
2019-07-28T18:02:22Z GlenK: I'm thinking no....darn it
2019-07-28T18:03:44Z GlenK: I suppose I should just buckle down and do that whole applicative order substitution model stuff?
2019-07-28T18:04:04Z GlenK: but I was hoping someone could maybe just look at it and right away say yeah, you're an idiot.  that's not iterative.
2019-07-28T18:04:37Z Riastradh: Why do you say your a variable isn't accumulating anything?
2019-07-28T18:05:10Z GlenK: in the first example?  well, b kinda acts as the accumulator.  a just remains 1 the whole time.  I'm fairly certain
2019-07-28T18:05:14Z Riastradh: Have you tried printing it?
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2019-07-28T18:07:04Z GlenK: no, but let me put it this way.  if n starts even, then for sure a never changes.  I just call iter again and a remains the same.  it's not until I hit n=1 that anything else happens
2019-07-28T18:07:28Z GlenK: I mean, then, sure, a is set to a * b, then I hit 0 and spit out a.
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2019-07-28T18:07:45Z Riastradh: Let's say n = 3, a = 1, and b = 2.  What are the successive values of a, b, and n?
2019-07-28T18:08:12Z Riastradh: (This should be small enough to work out by hand without asking the program to print it!)
2019-07-28T18:08:58Z GlenK: ok, even is different sorta then.  but let me pick n=16
2019-07-28T18:09:17Z GlenK: it's going to go like this: n=8, b=4, a=1
2019-07-28T18:09:33Z GlenK: n=4 b=16 a=1
2019-07-28T18:09:52Z GlenK: n=2 b=256 a=1
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2019-07-28T18:10:14Z GlenK: n=1 b=65536 a=1
2019-07-28T18:10:40Z GlenK: then n=0 b=65536 a=65536
2019-07-28T18:10:56Z GlenK: see what I mean?  a never does anything for sure when it's an even exponent
2019-07-28T18:11:39Z Zipheir: GlenK: I think a red flag is that you're recurring on both iter and the containing function (iterative-fast-expt).
2019-07-28T18:12:25Z GlenK: man...I don't know why I struggle so much with the iterative stuff
2019-07-28T18:12:46Z GlenK: it was like that last time I picked this book up
2019-07-28T18:14:34Z Zipheir: Looking at the recursive version of fast-expt in the book, the recursive call to iterative-fast-expt is definitely wrong.  But your answer is close.
2019-07-28T18:15:01Z Zipheir: s/Looking at/Comparing your answer with/
2019-07-28T18:15:44Z GlenK: Zipheir: well, so my second procedure.  every time 'a' needs to be multiplied by (expt 2 (/ n 2)).
2019-07-28T18:15:47Z Zipheir: The key to converting a recursive function into an iterative one is to convert the recursive calls into tail calls.
2019-07-28T18:16:01Z GlenK: haha, gah.  maybe I should just look at a solution on the web and move on
2019-07-28T18:16:20Z Zipheir: Nah, don't give up.
2019-07-28T18:18:19Z Zipheir: GlenK: Remember, there shouldn't be any recursive calls. In (iter (/ n 2) ...), the remaining arguments shouldn't contain a call to `iter'.
2019-07-28T18:18:34Z Zipheir: (and certainly not to `iterative-fast-expt')
2019-07-28T18:19:17Z Zipheir: I think you've just too-literally transcribed the recursive version.
2019-07-28T18:20:04Z GlenK: nah, I am on the right track.  and yeah, I knew I screwed up pretty much with the call to iterative-fast-expt
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2019-07-28T18:22:55Z Riastradh: GlenK: But you chose a power of two for n.  That's why I suggested working through n = 3.
2019-07-28T18:23:39Z Riastradh: How about n = 30, or n = 24?
2019-07-28T18:23:46Z Riastradh: Or n = 12?
2019-07-28T18:24:20Z GlenK: hmm, ok, you're right I suppose.  30 would be way different.
2019-07-28T18:24:51Z GlenK: still, I don't like it because it sorta doesn't match the problem description.  a * b ^ n
2019-07-28T18:26:07Z GlenK: I dunno, maybe I'm just being dumb here.  I dunno now.  haha darn it.
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2019-07-28T18:26:22Z GlenK: let me contemplate for a while.  thanks guys!
2019-07-28T18:26:40Z Riastradh: What I would do is write out the invariant that this iteration holds.  Give different names to the original parameters, like (fast-expt beta nu), so you can relate them with a, b, and n.
2019-07-28T18:29:28Z Zipheir: It's somewhat tricky.
2019-07-28T18:38:18Z Zipheir: This is a really good exercise, and nice to come back to again.  As per usual, with SICP.
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2019-07-28T18:54:13Z Zipheir: Man, that's beautiful stuff.
2019-07-28T18:54:25Z amz3: is there a difference between R5RS syntax-rules and R7RS syntax-rules?
2019-07-28T18:54:35Z amz3: Zipheir: sorry for last time, my comment was useless.
2019-07-28T18:56:46Z Zipheir: amz3: Hah, np.  IIRC R7's syntax-rules allow ... as a literal, but R5's version doesn't?
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2019-07-28T19:02:48Z Zipheir: Ignore me, that's not true.
2019-07-28T19:05:12Z Zipheir: What I was thinking of is that R7 allows the ellipsis identifier to be set, e.g. (syntax-rules dot-dot-dot (<literals> ...) ...)
2019-07-28T19:07:02Z Riastradh: Huh, they actually adopted that?
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2019-07-29T06:58:07Z dave0: hi
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2019-07-29T09:41:42Z amz3: what is the difference between alexpander.scm and psyntax.scm?
2019-07-29T09:41:48Z amz3: seems like everybody use psyntax.scm
2019-07-29T09:46:57Z amz3: it seems like to apply macros, I need to eval my program + libraries beforehand using a specific evaluation strategy
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2019-07-29T10:16:27Z amz3: alexpander doesn't implement syntax-case but it has syntax-rules
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2019-07-29T11:33:40Z amz3: so, it seems that module system is embedded in the expanders, hence I "just" need to rely on chez scheme expander
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2019-07-30T10:35:40Z amz3: in javascript Symbol('foo') return a new symbol everytime
2019-07-30T10:36:01Z amz3: and its a modern feature
2019-07-30T10:36:49Z LeoNerd: Yay for gensym
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2019-07-30T10:39:25Z amz3: also comparison is much slower that everything else
2019-07-30T10:39:30Z amz3: in firefox
2019-07-30T10:40:37Z amz3: even in chromium is slower to compare symbols than js object or functions
2019-07-30T10:41:29Z weinholt: with the === operator?
2019-07-30T10:41:33Z amz3: yes
2019-07-30T10:41:41Z amz3: https://www.measurethat.net/Benchmarks/Show/5685/0/func-vs-js-object-vs-symbol
2019-07-30T10:44:02Z weinholt: that page might be measuring the object creation
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2019-07-30T10:44:44Z amz3: firefox seems faster on all my micro benchmarks, for instance func2 === func3 gives 1B iterations in firefox and 60M in chrome
2019-07-30T10:44:52Z amz3: weinholt: tx! I fix it
2019-07-30T10:52:15Z amz3: in the benchmark without object creation, comparison seems the same
2019-07-30T10:52:17Z amz3: https://www.measurethat.net/Benchmarks/Show/5686/0/ruse-equal-benchmark
2019-07-30T10:52:22Z amz3: (firefox still faster)
2019-07-30T10:56:16Z amz3: anyway, js object provide more debug-ability than functions, so I will use that to represent symbols and other types (outside lambdas that are still just functions)
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2019-07-30T11:09:02Z amz3: LeoNerd: you are correct I can use that for gensym
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2019-07-30T14:13:25Z Zipheir: Is there a semi-standard alias for the equivalent of: (lambda (f n) (for-each f (iota n)))
2019-07-30T14:15:24Z Zipheir: I suppose you could call it a non-accumulating version of list-tabulate.  Or just a basic iterator.
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2019-07-30T14:29:42Z gwatt: How often do you find yourself writing that?
2019-07-30T14:31:22Z Zipheir: It's used rather heavily (as `for-each-n') in QobiScheme's/Jeff Siskind's linear-algebra library https://github.com/abarbu/linear-algebra
2019-07-30T14:31:25Z jcowan: gwatt: I have often missed it when writing procedures dealing with vectors.  I'm going to create a small SRFI for do-times, a Schemier version of CL dotimes.
2019-07-30T14:32:25Z Zipheir: Ah, right, dotimes.
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2019-07-30T16:53:00Z ecraven: I have a (do-times (i 0 10) ..) macro that sees quite some use ;)
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2019-07-30T16:53:29Z ecraven: I think I even changed it to (do-times ((x 0 10) (y 0 10)) ..) at some point, to iterate over x/y coordinates (serially, not in parallel)
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2019-07-30T16:53:49Z catchme: Is there any in-place copying garbage collection?
2019-07-30T16:55:57Z pjb: catchme: yes.
2019-07-30T16:56:51Z catchme: Can you direct me to theory and implementation or  implementation only ?
2019-07-30T16:58:08Z pjb: Take mark-and-sweep and replace the sweep by a copy-down-the-heap.
2019-07-30T16:59:33Z pjb: catchme: the essential thing is that you need a heap walker that is able to enumerate the objects on the heap in order.
2019-07-30T17:00:54Z pjb: of course, since this modifies the addresses of the objects, you need to patch the references.
2019-07-30T17:01:38Z ecraven: well, not hard if you only store cons cells, then everything will be the same size ;D
2019-07-30T17:01:39Z catchme: so 1.mark all 2.make a list of pointers in decreasing order 3.copy
2019-07-30T17:02:16Z pjb: and 4. update references.   2 and 3 can be done in a single pass.
2019-07-30T17:02:18Z catchme: @ecraven but strings would be cons of chars!
2019-07-30T17:02:30Z pjb: each object knows its size.
2019-07-30T17:03:14Z pjb: Sometimes the size is fixed known from the type, like conses, but otherwise the size is stored in some way, such as strings or vectors.
2019-07-30T17:05:09Z catchme: Thanks. I am trying to write scheme for micro-controller instead of forth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_(programming_language)
2019-07-30T17:06:46Z gnomon: catchme, are you doing it for fun, or have you looked up Picobit and Picbit already?
2019-07-30T17:10:41Z catchme: yes for fun, but I have checked in a hurry
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2019-07-30T17:11:49Z catchme: **check them**
2019-07-30T17:13:39Z jcowan: catchme: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark-compact_algorithm and its references.
2019-07-30T17:16:41Z catchme: @jcowan exactly what I needed, Thanks!
2019-07-30T17:17:57Z catchme: one more question:
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2019-07-30T18:00:11Z jcowan: catchme: Sure
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2019-07-30T18:40:48Z catchme: I was looking for minimum primitives for  scheme and boot trap it into full one, but I found "scheme 9 from empty space" and https://github.com/kanaka/mal ..., so I will study them first.
2019-07-30T18:41:02Z catchme: bootstrap**
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2019-07-30T18:50:29Z rain2: catchme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheney%27s_algorithm was implemented in https://github.com/rain-1/single_cream/blob/master/src/sch3.c#L109 https://github.com/rain-1/tarot-vm/blob/master/gc.c
2019-07-30T18:50:44Z rain2: it is a 2 space copy&compact GC
2019-07-30T18:52:20Z rain2: sorry i lied, second one is not cheneys algorithm - it's a linked list mark and sweep
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2019-07-30T18:57:43Z rain2: BTW, You said you wanted scheme on microcontroller instead of forth
2019-07-30T18:58:01Z rain2: Have you considered compiling scheme to forth? Treating the forth target language as a bytecode virtual machine?
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2019-07-30T21:34:04Z jcowan: Scheme 9 is very very pretty code
2019-07-30T21:34:14Z jcowan: and now has a bytecode compiler
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2019-07-30T23:05:11Z daviid: what happened to eulisp, anyone knows?
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2019-07-30T23:07:30Z pjb: daviid: basically, superseded by scheme.
2019-07-30T23:08:48Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuLisp
2019-07-30T23:09:30Z pjb: Still "alive", since there's an unofficial standard update dated 2010 :-)
2019-07-30T23:09:45Z daviid: pjb: i see, thanks.
2019-07-30T23:10:15Z daviid: i thk it was mainly maintained by a uk university, so it would 'never end', so to speak ...
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2019-07-30T23:10:26Z daviid: *thought
2019-07-30T23:11:05Z daviid: don't know if they ever had serious users/use cases, just curous ...
2019-07-30T23:12:18Z pjb: daviid: basically anectodal, but like any old system.  You have to realize that the number of programmers doubles every five years.  So the number of programs developped.
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2019-07-30T23:13:43Z pjb: So, yes, there were classes taught using them, and application developped, perhaps even commercial applications.  But soon submerged by classes taught using python and applications developped using swift or kotlin.
2019-07-30T23:24:40Z pjb: EULISP = European Legal Informatics Study Programme nowadays :-)
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2019-07-30T23:33:06Z daviid: :)
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2019-07-31T13:30:01Z joast: Lq:q!
2019-07-31T13:32:52Z amz3: o/ \o \o/
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2019-07-31T13:41:08Z CORDIC: ecraven: Isn't Python's ""range"", ""enumerate"", ""zip"" and ""iter"" better than ""do-times"", wehich is like BASIC ""FOR;NEXT"" ;) ?!
2019-07-31T13:42:02Z pjb: CORDIC: if it's better, then you can write it in scheme as well if not better.
2019-07-31T13:42:54Z pjb: (define zip (lambda lists (apply map list lists)))
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2019-07-31T13:52:26Z plugd: I'm looking for a way to implement a persistent chicken environment. I notice that Chicken 4 had an egg "s11n" that allowed for serialization/deserialization of many objects, but this hasn't been updated for Chickn 5. Really though I was hoping for something along the lines of MIT Scheme's "world image" functionality, as I really just want a way of backing up the current global environment.  Does anybody have any id
2019-07-31T13:52:26Z plugd: eas?
2019-07-31T13:55:52Z ecraven: CORDIC: no, I don't think it is
2019-07-31T13:56:00Z ecraven: at least not in exactly that case
2019-07-31T13:56:03Z plugd: (oops, the above was meant to be posted to #chicken - sorry!)
2019-07-31T13:56:04Z ecraven: but I don't know python very well ;)
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2019-07-31T14:05:29Z jcowan: CORDIC: Yes, we have those things, but do-times is often a very handy yoke
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2019-07-31T14:20:51Z amz3: plugd: interesting nonetheless
2019-07-31T14:22:12Z ecraven: my point is, I "just" want to iterate over a 2d canvas
2019-07-31T14:27:52Z jcowan: ecraven: There isn't an obvious unique iteration pattern for 2D: rowwise or columnwise, LTR/TTB or RTL/BTT or boustrophedon, or even diagonally (and which diagonals?)
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2019-07-31T14:43:26Z ecraven: jcowan: I do not care, I just want to generate a larger image based on a grid of bytes (reverse-engineering an old dos game)
2019-07-31T14:44:37Z jcowan: Ah.
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2019-07-31T14:45:07Z jcowan: Then the simplest underlying structure is probably just a bytevector, and do [i][j] references yourself when you need them.
2019-07-31T14:45:14Z ecraven: for each byte, I merge a 16x16 tile
2019-07-31T14:45:31Z ecraven: that's what I do, but I like do-times for this.. neither of the others is as succinct
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2019-07-31T14:56:22Z gwatt: sounds like you need image-map
2019-07-31T14:56:29Z gwatt: or image-for-each
2019-07-31T14:58:55Z ecraven: gwatt: well, I want to generate an image of 16x16 tiles, based on an "image" of bytes
2019-07-31T14:59:03Z ecraven: also, multiple layers and animation ;)
2019-07-31T14:59:23Z ecraven: just saying, that's what I use do-times for, seems more succinct to me than the others CORDIC mentioned
2019-07-31T14:59:38Z ecraven: but yes, I would *love* an efficient generic portable canvas implementation for all Schemes :D
2019-07-31T14:59:42Z ecraven: blitting is really important
2019-07-31T15:03:46Z jcowan: I'm thinking about a minimal core for one
2019-07-31T15:04:07Z jcowan: as a byproduct of thinking about grid terminals
2019-07-31T15:08:33Z ecraven: I've written some code, that just uses a bytevector, 4 bytes per pixel, but it isn't very fast, even on chez
2019-07-31T15:11:03Z jcowan: Bit-twiddling is never fast on modern CPUs, especially if you are writing
2019-07-31T15:11:33Z jcowan: That's why the sample implementation of boolean vectors for a near-future SRFI will use 1 byte per bool.
2019-07-31T15:11:49Z ecraven: I'm not bit twiddling, I'm just reading and writing entire bytes
2019-07-31T15:11:53Z jcowan: it makes things like bvector-copy! very easy, with no bit-twiddling.
2019-07-31T15:12:02Z jcowan: Ah, okay.  That is strange, then
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2019-07-31T15:12:28Z ecraven: maybe bytevector-u8-* just isn't very fast on chez.. not sure
2019-07-31T15:12:55Z ecraven: hm.. actually, I should profile (as always).. might be *emacs* that is the problem, I show the images on the SLIME repl
2019-07-31T15:13:07Z ecraven: I really wish slime supported nested presentations :-/
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2019-07-31T15:18:04Z gwatt: ecraven: could always add some bytevector micro benchmarks to your suite.
2019-07-31T15:18:27Z ecraven: gwatt: hehe, planning on it
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2019-07-31T16:20:31Z Zipheir: CORDIC: `do-times', like `for-each', is a perfectly good name since the argument proc is being called for its side effects.
2019-07-31T16:20:54Z Zipheir: CORDIC: In functional code, you'd be using list-tabulate, et al.
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2019-07-31T16:30:52Z amz3: I made a very simple demo app compiled to javascript: https://scheme-live.github.io/ruse-scheme/demo/counter/
2019-07-31T16:31:29Z amz3: here is the code: https://github.com/scheme-live/ruse-scheme/blob/master/demo/counter/main.scm
2019-07-31T16:31:39Z amz3: the scheme code ;)
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2019-07-31T17:49:24Z jcowan: Zipheir: Except that do-times has a body rather than a procedure
2019-07-31T17:49:42Z Riastradh: jcowan: What happened to the web site at ccil.org?  Does it have a new home?
2019-07-31T17:51:30Z jcowan: vrici.lojban.org/~cowan
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2019-07-31T18:12:24Z Zipheir: Body, procedure, in the lambda order they are all the same thing.
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2019-07-31T18:43:14Z mdhughes: I have a (for (var start end step) ...) macro, super useful compared to writing more do loops. There's a ton of similarly useful macros in each person's prelude or implementation's "miscmacros" or "extensions" library. I'd like to see more of that junk standardized.
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2019-07-31T18:51:13Z Riastradh: (loop ((for x (up-from 0 (to n)))) ...)
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2019-07-31T19:06:08Z Zipheir: Ah, the dreaded "loop macro" holy war.
2019-07-31T19:09:45Z Zipheir: mdhughes: But each person's 'miscmacros' will contain little design choices that they--and perhaps only they--want.  Hence a standardization nightmare.
2019-07-31T19:14:10Z Zipheir: c.f. foof's discussion on how no one can agree on a loop macro http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/msg/60dcac5ea812398
2019-07-31T19:21:10Z ecraven: Riastradh: but that's the point, that is much less succinct. in code that uses the idiom a lot, it warrants better syntax, imho
2019-07-31T19:21:59Z mdhughes: Right, and I certainly can't agree with those complex loops; if I need something complex I'll just let loop and manually cycle it. The main case I need shortened is a numeric loop up or down.
2019-07-31T19:22:46Z Zipheir: That case certainly comes up a lot.
2019-07-31T19:24:28Z jcowan: I think the 3 reasonable candidates for a loop are SRFI 42 (I think foof's strictures are incorrect), Chibi loop, and Riastradh's foof-loop (which is compatible on the user side with Chibi loop but not on the sub-implementers side (i.e. if you want to add a new feature).  Personally I like SRFI 42.
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2019-07-31T19:28:00Z mdhughes: Looking at SRFI-42 now. The easy cases are nice. The complex ones are reinventing a normal let-loop with slightly non-standard 'if', etc.
2019-07-31T19:29:15Z Zipheir: SRFI-42 is nice.  I suppose there might be a way to use SRFI-158 generators with it, as well.
2019-07-31T19:29:21Z ecraven: hm.. (do-ec (: x 10) (: y 10) (canvas-blit! ... x ... y )) does indeed seem reasonable.. I'll look at that some more
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2019-07-31T19:31:17Z Riastradh: SRFI 42 is wrong, and foof-loop is right.  I rest my case.
2019-07-31T19:31:54Z Riastradh: (Also I apologize for causing confusion with the name foof-loop, but it's a little late to change it now.)
2019-07-31T19:32:35Z ecraven: Riastradh: what would be the simplest way to iterate over all combinations of x and y from 0 to 10 in foof-loop?
2019-07-31T19:32:49Z Riastradh: ecraven: Iterate and do what with them?
2019-07-31T19:33:01Z ecraven: run some function on them, ignore any results
2019-07-31T19:35:04Z Riastradh: (loop ((for x (up-from 0 (to 10)))) (loop ((for y (up-from 0 (to 10)))) (f x y)))
2019-07-31T19:35:25Z Riastradh: Some comparisons: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/loop-comparison.scm
2019-07-31T19:35:45Z ecraven: unfortunately this does not appear "succinct" to me... I am not interested in the general case here, but in the special case I need 25 times in that one file
2019-07-31T19:35:51Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks!
2019-07-31T19:37:10Z Riastradh: I guess you could also do (iterate! (for x (up-from 0 (to 10))) (for y (up-from 0 (to 10))) ...).
2019-07-31T19:37:12Z mdhughes: Slight annoyance, do-ec takes a command, not a body, have to wrap a begin around it. But otherwise quite nice.
2019-07-31T19:37:55Z ecraven: Riastradh: but if you use this one abstraction often in a given file, wouldn't it be better to wrap it in a special macro?
2019-07-31T19:38:06Z ecraven: isn't that exactly the case that syntactic abstractions are useful for?
2019-07-31T19:38:21Z Riastradh: Sure, it might.
2019-07-31T19:42:11Z Zipheir: Why another macro?  Just write a (do-in-range f start end) procedure.
2019-07-31T19:43:42Z Riastradh: (dotimes i n <body>) is much more legible when <body> is nontrivial.
2019-07-31T19:44:10Z Zipheir: IMHO, the real usefulness of loop macros is for complex loops that would suck if written with named let.
2019-07-31T19:44:12Z ecraven: Zipheir: because of additional indentation for all the thunks
2019-07-31T19:44:36Z ecraven: Zipheir: and usually start and end are simple, but f can be complex, so imho it should come last
2019-07-31T19:44:59Z Zipheir: Heavens, indentation.  The world is ending.
2019-07-31T19:45:09Z ecraven: to each his/her own
2019-07-31T19:45:16Z Riastradh: Indentation does matter for legibility.
2019-07-31T19:45:28Z ecraven: especially *useless* indentation
2019-07-31T19:45:42Z ecraven: there is no *reason* for that thunk, it doesn't do anything useful, it's just there for "syntactic" reasons
2019-07-31T19:45:55Z Zipheir: What thunk?
2019-07-31T19:46:01Z Riastradh: (do-in-range
2019-07-31T19:46:02Z Riastradh:  (lambda (i)
2019-07-31T19:46:08Z Riastradh:    ...here is a huge pile of code
2019-07-31T19:46:10Z Riastradh:    that takes lots of lines
2019-07-31T19:46:16Z Riastradh:    (do-in-range
2019-07-31T19:46:19Z Riastradh:     (lambda (j)
2019-07-31T19:46:24Z Riastradh:       ...by the way, some more code!...
2019-07-31T19:46:32Z Riastradh:     start1 end1))
2019-07-31T19:46:35Z Riastradh:  start0 end0)
2019-07-31T19:46:42Z ecraven: ^ ;)
2019-07-31T19:47:28Z Riastradh: I posit that such code is more legible if written (dotimes (i start0 end0) ...the huge pile of code... (dotimes (j start1 end1) ...some more code...)).
2019-07-31T19:47:48Z Zipheir: OK, so put the procedure last.  Or just Don't Do That, Then.  Name the damn procedures you're iterating and write them out nicely.
2019-07-31T19:48:11Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's also nice.
2019-07-31T19:48:43Z ecraven: Zipheir: quite often there is no useful name I can give to that procedure, so inventing one will be more misleading than just *not* giving it one
2019-07-31T19:49:07Z ecraven: Riastradh: I'd even opt for (dotime ((i start0 end0) (j start1 end1)) ...), if possible
2019-07-31T19:49:33Z gwatt: Also, if the procedure is a closure using nearby identifiers, you have to define it right there and immediately use it.
2019-07-31T19:49:38Z Riastradh: Not far from (loop ((for i (up-from start0 (to end0))) (for j (up-from start1 (to end1))) ...)...
2019-07-31T19:50:08Z Riastradh: ecraven: Hold on a moment -- are i and j updated in parallel, or in cartesian product in your macro?
2019-07-31T19:50:37Z ecraven: cartesian product in this case, they are used to iterate over every element of a matrix (image in this case)
2019-07-31T19:50:49Z ecraven: so 0,0 0,1 0,2 ... 1,0 1,1 1,2 ...
2019-07-31T19:51:46Z Riastradh: ecraven: Right, but once you make the macro more complicated like that, it takes more effort to guess that while reading the code.
2019-07-31T19:52:27Z Zipheir: That is a bit sneaky.
2019-07-31T19:53:35Z ecraven: Riastradh: indeed, but if it is used often enough in exactly that manner, I still believe it is a net win ;) it probably needs a better name, though
2019-07-31T19:54:57Z gwatt: ecraven: you could nest do-times to get the cartesian product
2019-07-31T19:56:05Z ecraven: gwatt: the problem is, I need that 25 times or so in that file.. the nesting seems .. unnecessary. shouldn't there be an abstraction for "all those 2d combinations of coordinates"?
2019-07-31T19:56:11Z mdhughes: For that kind of thing, I made a Rect record and a method Rect-for-each that calls a thunk with the x,y coords of each point.
2019-07-31T19:57:14Z Riastradh: 25 times nested cartesian product?  No way you can evaluate that on your computer unless each one just goes no more than 2-3 iterations!
2019-07-31T20:00:03Z ecraven: hehe, 25 times twice nested, not 25 nested all inside each other
2019-07-31T20:02:25Z Zipheir: Given a list generator (cartesian s1 e1 s2 e2) => ((s1 s2) (s1 s2+1) ...) or the lazy equivalent, how about a simple macro for `map' that gives you something like (descartes-it-up s1 s2 e1 e2 body ...)?
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2019-07-31T20:02:54Z Zipheir: s/map/for-each/, if you aren't accumulating.  And you probably aren't.
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2019-07-31T20:09:49Z mdhughes: But you run into the order problem again, it'd be (descartes body x y w h). You've put des-cartes before des-horse.
2019-07-31T20:09:51Z Zipheir: Actually, the macro would need to name the index variables, so it's more complicated.
2019-07-31T20:10:08Z Zipheir: rudybot: Yow!
2019-07-31T20:10:09Z rudybot: Zipheir: yow
2019-07-31T20:11:08Z Zipheir: Yeah, that was a mistake.
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2019-07-31T20:35:22Z amz3: rudybot: can I interject?
2019-07-31T20:35:31Z rudybot: amz3: that's why i tried to interject my "age" in the conversation. this is a new channel for me. and those are my observations. i can't tell anymore on the channels that i am on
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