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2019-06-01T10:59:55Z TCZ: Put up in a place where it's easy to see the cryptic admonishment T.T.T. When you feel how depressingly slowly you climb, it's well to remember that Things Take Time.
2019-06-01T11:01:38Z pjb: And space, and matter.
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2019-06-01T11:04:03Z amz3: o/
2019-06-01T11:15:49Z amz3: weinholt: tx for your work on implementing industria and in particular Ed25519 signing and X25519 key exchange. I am busy right now, but sure things I will use it at some point.
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2019-06-01T11:19:14Z wasamasa: TCZ: it's not a repl for unicon, just something repl-like written in unicon to demo readline
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2019-06-01T11:20:08Z weinholt: amz3, you're welcome, it was interesting
2019-06-01T11:20:31Z amz3: I am using uuid in my project.
2019-06-01T11:22:01Z amz3: even if I might replace uuid4 with something that is "sortable" like ULID, see https://github.com/ulid/
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2019-06-01T11:25:24Z wasamasa: interesting
2019-06-01T11:27:38Z wasamasa: if only I had a usecase for these :D
2019-06-01T11:28:16Z amz3: wasamasa: use SRFI-167 you will have a use case for it :D
2019-06-01T11:28:29Z wasamasa: yeah, no, I'm happy with sqlite
2019-06-01T11:29:35Z amz3: soon enough svenha will adopt that srfi ;)
2019-06-01T11:30:51Z wasamasa: someone even implemented a kv store on top of it
2019-06-01T11:30:59Z wasamasa: which is kind of ridiculous, but whatever
2019-06-01T11:31:38Z amz3: on top of what?
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2019-06-01T11:31:55Z amz3: on top of sqlite?
2019-06-01T11:32:00Z wasamasa: yes
2019-06-01T11:33:12Z amz3: yes it is not a good idea to implement a kv store on top of sqlite. It should be the other way around.
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2019-06-01T12:07:04Z TCZ: wasamasa you write it in so many languages haha
2019-06-01T12:07:22Z wasamasa: yeah, that was when I was more enthusiastic about MAL
2019-06-01T12:07:31Z wasamasa: and hoped we'd archieve 100 implementations
2019-06-01T12:07:32Z TCZ: 30 haha
2019-06-01T12:07:54Z wasamasa: the official repo has 77
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2019-06-01T12:45:13Z amz3: my emacs experience is much better since I use pop-global-ark and pop-to-mark-command
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2019-06-01T13:03:24Z TCZ: No reptiles have fur. All snakes are reptiles. Some snakes have no fur.
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2019-06-01T13:32:44Z puchacz: hi, I am going through Seasoned Schemer now, with plans to go through SICP and Reasoned Schemer later. I know Common Lisp rather well and I use sbcl via slime. For Scheme, shall I go for racket + geiser please?
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2019-06-01T13:33:29Z puchacz: I know racket has stepper/debugger, at least in its own environment
2019-06-01T13:33:34Z puchacz: not sure about geiser
2019-06-01T13:39:04Z amz3: puchacz: it has a macro debugger, but it is less pratical than dr racket. I do my coding in emacs and debug macros in drracket
2019-06-01T13:40:16Z amz3: puchacz: look for M-x geiser-expand-fu
2019-06-01T13:41:26Z puchacz: amz3: okay, and if I want stepper, is racket my only option?
2019-06-01T13:41:44Z puchacz: stepper is probably very nice when going through examples from books
2019-06-01T13:41:44Z amz3: I think so
2019-06-01T13:41:56Z puchacz: okay, so (dr) racket + geiser it is :)
2019-06-01T13:42:09Z puchacz: with debugging in dr racket
2019-06-01T13:42:11Z puchacz: thanks!
2019-06-01T13:42:15Z amz3: yw!
2019-06-01T13:43:11Z puchacz: ah, and is there a book that would be equivalent of "Practical Common Lisp" please? e.g. how to resolve dependencies between libraries, how to set up environment etc.
2019-06-01T13:44:48Z amz3: I don't know "Pratical Common Lisp" but from your description there is no such thing for scheme
2019-06-01T13:46:27Z puchacz: amz3: no worries, thanks
2019-06-01T13:48:04Z wasamasa: scheme is a bit too fragmented for that to happen
2019-06-01T13:48:25Z wasamasa: for racket there's two specialized books so far, one on web development, the other about language design
2019-06-01T13:50:27Z wasamasa: it has been considered for CHICKEN: https://wiki.call-cc.org/vaporbook
2019-06-01T13:51:35Z puchacz: is chicken "production" oriented? like racket being "education" oriented - I know it is not necessarily opposite, but I don't think racket is "production" oriented
2019-06-01T13:52:21Z puchacz: things like fast execution, unicode, threads, foreign function calls, maybe deliverying standalone binaries
2019-06-01T13:52:23Z amz3: what is production oriented?
2019-06-01T13:52:34Z amz3: yeah chickend does all of that
2019-06-01T13:52:49Z amz3: s/chickend/chicken/
2019-06-01T13:52:51Z puchacz: and racket?
2019-06-01T13:53:02Z wasamasa: racket is strong in academia, that's for sure
2019-06-01T13:53:07Z amz3: puchacz: it has a particular support for threads otherwise it does support all of that
2019-06-01T13:53:21Z puchacz: okay
2019-06-01T13:53:27Z amz3: puchacz: particular in the sens, it is not POSIX threads, but it might be enough for your needs
2019-06-01T13:53:50Z amz3: puchacz: I mean they have threads but it wrapped in some abstraction...
2019-06-01T13:53:59Z wasamasa: but even outside that it has good support for the common stuff and is known for its gui library and http server
2019-06-01T13:54:14Z amz3: http in racket is mess in my opinion
2019-06-01T13:54:23Z amz3: I much prefer guile approach
2019-06-01T13:54:26Z puchacz: for now I am just planning to go through examples from books, so familiarity with geiser + racket having stepper is most important. but if I like it and I want to use it to actually deliver an app, it seems I would need to switch to another implementation
2019-06-01T13:54:50Z wasamasa: what kind of "app"?
2019-06-01T13:54:52Z puchacz: familliarity with geiser = I mean its description feels like slime for Common Lisp :-)
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2019-06-01T13:55:16Z puchacz: I use sbcl for web server programming and I am intending to use lispworks for standalone client for that.
2019-06-01T13:55:17Z amz3: yeah, what kind of app?
2019-06-01T13:55:39Z amz3: what is lispworks?
2019-06-01T13:55:46Z wasamasa: compiling to C helps here, but isn't necessarily the least painful way :>
2019-06-01T13:55:59Z amz3: lispworks is an IDE
2019-06-01T13:56:09Z puchacz: commercial common lisp implementation that can deliver standalone executables for windows / linux / android
2019-06-01T13:56:34Z amz3: puchacz: chez scheme can do that for linux at least
2019-06-01T13:56:50Z amz3: puchacz: i THINK gambit scheme has android support
2019-06-01T13:56:55Z amz3: not sure about chicken
2019-06-01T13:57:20Z wasamasa: it has been used for android, but you'll need to use an android IDE in any case to combine with java or so
2019-06-01T13:58:21Z wasamasa: I can't quite imagine it to be any different with anything compiling to native code
2019-06-01T13:58:40Z puchacz: that's fine, so implementations to check are chicken, chez and gambit
2019-06-01T13:59:13Z wasamasa: what I've seen so far is software generating the android/ios project for your IDE
2019-06-01T13:59:36Z wasamasa: for react native that is
2019-06-01T13:59:42Z amz3: puchacz: I used to recommend to start with racket to learn scheme, but actually I find it painful to switch later on, even if those are very similar language, you get used to all the extras they provide.
2019-06-01T14:00:13Z puchacz: amz3: so other implementations are more painful to use than racket, is this what you are saying :) ?
2019-06-01T14:00:21Z amz3: especially if you already programming, I THINK, you should try to choose the scheme implementation that best suits your immediate needs
2019-06-01T14:00:36Z puchacz: immediate is defo racket, because of the stepper
2019-06-01T14:00:41Z amz3: puchacz: maybe, I only use dr racket macro stepper
2019-06-01T14:00:59Z amz3: like I said, you don't need to use racket language to use the stepper
2019-06-01T14:01:27Z amz3: the few macros I have coded were done in dr racket then copy/pasted in chez scheme code
2019-06-01T14:01:34Z puchacz: I *think* it had normal function stepper when I played with it few years ago, displaying stack frames with variables in it etc.
2019-06-01T14:01:42Z amz3: that is true
2019-06-01T14:02:13Z puchacz: anyway, racket for now. if I want to do something deliverable, not sure.
2019-06-01T14:02:34Z wasamasa: racket can spit out bundles of the interpreter and sources, that works for games
2019-06-01T14:03:02Z puchacz: ok
2019-06-01T14:03:23Z wasamasa: https://docs.racket-lang.org/raco/exe.html
2019-06-01T14:03:39Z puchacz: thanks
2019-06-01T14:04:25Z wasamasa: in any case, racket has the best documentation for a scheme system
2019-06-01T14:04:42Z wasamasa: CHICKEN is good, but occasionally you'll have to try out things and read the sources
2019-06-01T14:06:00Z aos: Is the scheme wiki @ schemewiki.org down?
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2019-06-01T14:06:31Z ChoHag: How you define a function (or lambda) with only optional parameters?
2019-06-01T14:06:44Z puchacz: maybe I will start with racket and stay with racket
2019-06-01T14:06:59Z wasamasa: maybe, it works for many people
2019-06-01T14:07:08Z amz3: aos: yes
2019-06-01T14:07:27Z amz3: ChoHag: which implementation of scheme are you using? guile?
2019-06-01T14:08:08Z aos: Dang it -- seems like it goes down regularly. Do you know who hosts it? I'd like to contribute on that front
2019-06-01T14:08:32Z amz3: IMO it would be best to rely on git repo...
2019-06-01T14:08:55Z amz3: there is a schemedoc mailing list on srfi website that might be interested in such work
2019-06-01T14:09:26Z aos: I mean keeping the site up lol
2019-06-01T14:09:34Z aos: Not sure why it's always down in this day and age
2019-06-01T14:10:31Z aos: I use it for the SICP discussion
2019-06-01T14:12:19Z ChoHag: Well it doesn't have anything that looks like a version option but the binary's called scheme48.
2019-06-01T14:12:38Z ChoHag: void$ scheme48
2019-06-01T14:12:38Z ChoHag: Welcome to Scheme 48 1.9.2 (made by _pbuild on 2019-04-13)
2019-06-01T14:13:04Z amz3: I don't know scheme48
2019-06-01T14:13:17Z amz3: I know it is a thing, but I never used it.
2019-06-01T14:15:55Z wasamasa: doesn't seem like it offers anything beyond r5rs or whatever it's implementing: http://www.s48.org/1.9.2/manual/manual-Z-H-1.html#node_toc_start
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2019-06-01T14:17:03Z wasamasa: vanilla scheme only offers regular arguments and rest arguments
2019-06-01T14:17:23Z wasamasa: you could write a procedure accepting rest arguments only
2019-06-01T14:17:56Z amz3: there is also case-lambda.
2019-06-01T14:18:05Z amz3: ah r5rs.
2019-06-01T14:18:06Z wasamasa: (define (list . rest) rest)
2019-06-01T14:18:44Z wasamasa: alternatively, (define list (lambda rest rest))
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2019-06-01T14:32:15Z ChoHag: I got that bit, but what about without list?
2019-06-01T14:32:31Z ChoHag: Wait. Sorry. Didn't look closely.
2019-06-01T14:32:49Z ChoHag: What about with a lambda: (lambda ( . rest) ...) doesn't cut it.
2019-06-01T14:33:13Z ChoHag: (define (foo . rest) ...) is simple enough.
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2019-06-01T14:37:06Z amz3: you can (lambda args args)
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2019-06-01T14:43:29Z ChoHag: Thanks.
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2019-06-01T15:55:36Z wasamasa: ChoHag: it's just an example how one can define the well-known list procedure
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2019-06-01T17:33:36Z ChoHag: Is there a common way of controlling threads between implementations?
2019-06-01T17:33:59Z ChoHag: Specifically, I'm not interested in threads per se but in wrapping certain variables in the correct mutexes and locks.
2019-06-01T17:34:07Z civodul: ChoHag: SRFI-18
2019-06-01T17:34:20Z civodul: i don't know how widely implemented it is
2019-06-01T17:34:41Z ChoHag: Is that canonical?
2019-06-01T17:34:45Z ChoHag: Whatever that might mean?
2019-06-01T17:35:14Z civodul: it's specified and implemented by some
2019-06-01T17:35:23Z wasamasa: it's as canonical as the rest of the standards
2019-06-01T17:35:28Z ChoHag: (That is, I found a document which claims to be SRFI-18 and looks vaguely spec-like on first glance; is a SRFI spec in some way "official"?)
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2019-06-01T17:36:26Z wasamasa: it's a community document, just like the RNRS ones
2019-06-01T17:36:34Z ChoHag: I see.
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2019-06-01T17:38:01Z wasamasa: http://www.s48.org/1.9.2/manual/manual-Z-H-6.html#node_sec_5.22
2019-06-01T17:38:09Z wasamasa: scheme48 doesn't include it
2019-06-01T17:39:02Z ChoHag: Well they've skipped that one.
2019-06-01T17:39:07Z ChoHag: Fantastic. Portability street.
2019-06-01T17:39:19Z wasamasa: welcome to the real world
2019-06-01T17:39:23Z ChoHag: Oh please.
2019-06-01T17:39:31Z ChoHag: I do this for fun.
2019-06-01T17:39:31Z wasamasa: it's the same everywhere standards are involved, lol
2019-06-01T17:39:42Z ChoHag: ← Sysadmin
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2019-06-01T17:39:53Z ChoHag: Don't tell me about the real bloody world...
2019-06-01T17:40:39Z wasamasa: the only solace you have is that as long as you code against the standard, you're free to switch implementations with relatively little effort
2019-06-01T17:40:44Z ChoHag: OK so I've been trying stick to core functions, but what's the deal with libraries and/or modules in scheme, with an eye to portability?
2019-06-01T17:40:59Z wasamasa: well, that's not part of the R5RS standard
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2019-06-01T17:41:26Z ChoHag: Specifically, I want to ensure a variable is only read/written/tested under the conditions of a lock in a way that, if the code were to be used in a scheme interpreter with threads, my (with-lock 'foo fn) call will DTRT.
2019-06-01T17:42:15Z wasamasa: R6RS introduces them, R7RS introduces them again in a different form
2019-06-01T17:42:22Z ChoHag: (ie. with-lock attempts to obtain the lock 'foo and, when it's eventually available, runs (fn))
2019-06-01T17:42:35Z ChoHag: (The variable linkage is elsewhere)
2019-06-01T17:43:11Z ChoHag: (I assume speaking in parentheses is acceptable in here (provided it's not overdone (like this (sort of))))
2019-06-01T17:44:09Z wasamasa: out of curiosity, why scheme48?
2019-06-01T17:44:18Z ChoHag: But I can figure out the details of the locking part, I need to know how modules/libraries are loaded "in general" and how to, eg., detect whether functions exist or need to be emulated.
2019-06-01T17:44:25Z ChoHag shrugs
2019-06-01T17:44:26Z wasamasa: it's more of a "Learn how one would implement Scheme" implementation
2019-06-01T17:44:29Z ChoHag: pkg_search found it.
2019-06-01T17:44:57Z ChoHag: pkg_info -Q, sorry. OpenBSD.
2019-06-01T17:45:03Z wasamasa: consider trying CHICKEN
2019-06-01T17:45:10Z wasamasa: it has srfi-18 and whatnot
2019-06-01T17:45:16Z ChoHag: There's also chibi-scheme-0.8.0 and tinyscheme-1.41.
2019-06-01T17:45:33Z wasamasa: you could even use a r7rs-like module system if you wanted to stick with standards
2019-06-01T17:45:38Z ChoHag: And p5-Color-Scheme-1.07 but I don't think that's relevent because /^p5-/ means perl. Also colour scheme.
2019-06-01T17:46:16Z wasamasa: chibi-scheme is also good
2019-06-01T17:46:46Z wasamasa: doesn't have nearly as many extensions as CHICKEN, but plenty
2019-06-01T17:47:03Z wasamasa: some people use it for scripting purposes
2019-06-01T17:47:13Z ChoHag: I'm mostly just learning the language.
2019-06-01T17:47:32Z ChoHag: Hence I installed the first one I saw. Documentation seems to be scant and/or hard to find.
2019-06-01T17:47:49Z ChoHag: I'm got some of the obvious places but, well, open sores and documentation. It is what it is.
2019-06-01T17:47:55Z wasamasa: those two have proper documentation
2019-06-01T17:48:06Z wasamasa: if you want to get an idea what the best documentation is you can get, try racket
2019-06-01T17:48:55Z ChoHag: Yes that one keeps coming up.
2019-06-01T17:49:09Z ChoHag: I assumed it was some sort of scheme++ and tried to steer clear
2019-06-01T17:49:22Z wasamasa: indeed, they grew way beyond and made opinionated changes
2019-06-01T17:49:49Z wasamasa: at the same time it has the most advanced macro system
2019-06-01T17:50:01Z wasamasa: powerful enough to implement new programming languages on top of it
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2019-06-01T17:54:14Z wasamasa: as for you other points, the library system tends to be rather anemic compared to something like JS or python
2019-06-01T17:54:38Z wasamasa: things like detecting whether a function exists are non-standard
2019-06-01T17:55:37Z wasamasa: the only standard way to do feature detection is specified in SRFI-0, cond-expand
2019-06-01T17:57:01Z ChoHag: I'm not too interested in macros at the moment.
2019-06-01T17:57:14Z ChoHag: I'll get onto that if/when I start using it to write code.
2019-06-01T17:57:32Z wasamasa: that's fine, in practice you rarely if ever write macros
2019-06-01T18:01:32Z ChoHag: SRFI-0 is another one that scheme48, at least, has not implemented.
2019-06-01T18:01:46Z ChoHag: "No, let's not implement the portability-detection features."
2019-06-01T18:01:56Z wasamasa: bizarre
2019-06-01T18:02:17Z wasamasa: well, the only other thing I know about it is that it's where CHICKEN took its library design from
2019-06-01T18:03:28Z rain1: there should be a srfi for importing srfis
2019-06-01T18:03:51Z wasamasa: lol
2019-06-01T18:03:54Z wasamasa: a bit late, no
2019-06-01T18:04:44Z wasamasa: at least it has a non-standard thread system: http://www.s48.org/1.9.2/manual/manual-Z-H-8.html#node_chap_7
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2019-06-01T18:11:46Z amz3: everytime I am too lazy to code procedure, I mock it with procedure. I come back to it later, the smaller problem seems at this point more manageable.
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2019-06-01T18:36:05Z ChoHag: So on a tangentially related note, what's the best way to do a hash-lookin/dictionary/whatever scheme calls a key/value store other than an assoc-list?
2019-06-01T18:36:14Z ChoHag: s/lookin/lookup/
2019-06-01T18:36:58Z wasamasa: srfi-69 provides hash tables
2019-06-01T18:37:16Z ChoHag: Another one scheme48 doesn't do.
2019-06-01T18:37:24Z ChoHag: It it the black sheep or something?
2019-06-01T18:37:32Z wasamasa: it's not designed for actually writing software with it
2019-06-01T18:37:49Z ChoHag: Well fine.
2019-06-01T18:37:57Z wasamasa: it's designed as a teaching exercise
2019-06-01T18:37:57Z ChoHag: But couldn't they at least have tried to interoperate?
2019-06-01T18:38:09Z wasamasa: > It is called "Scheme 48" because the first version was written in 48 hours in August 1986.[6] The authors now[when?] say it is intended to be understood in 48 hours.[citation needed]
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2019-06-01T18:38:32Z ChoHag: It's understood in the last 48 minutes that it's a PITA.
2019-06-01T18:38:33Z wasamasa: the implementation is far more interesting than what you can do with it
2019-06-01T18:38:39Z ChoHag: I see.
2019-06-01T18:38:48Z ChoHag: Well I suppose it ought to have some redeeming feature.
2019-06-01T18:38:49Z ChoHag: Why?
2019-06-01T18:38:51Z wasamasa: like, the prescheme dialect it compiles to
2019-06-01T18:39:08Z wasamasa: well, that's one of the redeeming features of scheme
2019-06-01T18:39:13Z wasamasa: learning more about computation :>
2019-06-01T18:39:30Z ChoHag: This particular strange mood has sort of gone the other way.
2019-06-01T18:39:36Z Zipheir: Also scsh is implemented on top of scheme48, so you can experiment with that.
2019-06-01T18:39:54Z ChoHag: I figured out one day what lambda meant then decided to see what I could do with it.
2019-06-01T18:40:04Z wasamasa: yeah, but I still wouldn't recommend actually using it because nobody works on scheme48
2019-06-01T18:40:11Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-06-01T18:40:42Z Zipheir: OTOH, as someone in here said, "sometimes software is abandoned, and sometimes it's just finished."
2019-06-01T18:40:43Z ChoHag: OK well I'll figure out what this chibi thing's like.
2019-06-01T18:40:54Z ChoHag: Nothing's ever finished.
2019-06-01T18:40:56Z wasamasa: careful, you might find bugs in it :>
2019-06-01T18:41:21Z Zipheir: "A painting is finished when I abandon it." --Willem De Kooning
2019-06-01T18:41:36Z wasamasa: but hey, it's actively developed so you can hand in a PR and with a bit of luck it will get merged
2019-06-01T18:41:46Z ChoHag: Knuth understands this. His version numbering scheme reflects it perfectly.
2019-06-01T18:42:15Z ChoHag: "It spirals closer towards precision"
2019-06-01T18:42:58Z wasamasa: note that chibi implements R7RS
2019-06-01T18:43:19Z ChoHag: Is that a completed standard or a protostandard?
2019-06-01T18:43:26Z ChoHag: And does anyone care?
2019-06-01T18:43:30Z wasamasa: r7rs-small is complete, r7rs-large is WIP
2019-06-01T18:43:43Z ChoHag: Well fantastic.
2019-06-01T18:44:12Z wasamasa: I did a talk on the details: https://github.com/wasamasa/chicken-in-the-forest
2019-06-01T18:45:01Z wasamasa: tl;dr: you can implement compilers and interpreters just fine in pure r7rs
2019-06-01T18:45:22Z Zipheir: Chibi also implements some good SRFIs that other schemes  have been slow to provide, like 135 (immutable texts)
2019-06-01T18:45:54Z wasamasa: ChoHag: see it as a chance to be involved in a standardization process :>
2019-06-01T18:54:28Z amz3: OT: with r7rs things are too easy! Tx!
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2019-06-01T18:57:01Z amz3: actually, it is not off-topic :)
2019-06-01T18:57:21Z amz3: well, I just gave the finishing touch to my program using some R7RS beautiful hashmap-union
2019-06-01T18:57:58Z amz3: ah! I love it, already!
2019-06-01T18:59:23Z amz3: with some generator goodness in the mix
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2019-06-01T19:36:53Z ChoHag: Standards are unicorns.
2019-06-01T19:40:00Z amz3: what does it mean?
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2019-06-01T19:41:52Z ChoHag: They're mythical things which everyone's heard of, are perfect, nobody's seen, and are really rhinoceroses.
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2019-06-01T19:49:01Z Zipheir: We've all seen a lot of standards.  They're just usually so boring that you fall asleep after 3 pages and develop amnesia about the whole experience.
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2019-06-01T19:49:38Z Zipheir: (R7RS is quite readable, however.)
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2019-06-01T20:01:44Z amz3: oh! The crawler has already download 70G of data.
2019-06-01T20:01:52Z amz3: +ed
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2019-06-01T20:03:29Z tolja: From scheme wiki?
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2019-06-01T20:05:38Z amz3: I removed scheme wiki because it was giving false positive results
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2019-06-01T20:09:23Z amz3: rudybot: what do you think of standards?
2019-06-01T20:09:30Z rudybot: amz3: I do not remember the exact mime type, but that sounds right. The appropriate rfc redefines some mail standards to make it work. What do you think does it violate?
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2019-06-01T21:04:07Z amz3: I think I pushed the last draft of SRFI 167 and SRFI 168.
2019-06-01T21:04:15Z amz3: I will ask arthur to merge those:
2019-06-01T21:04:16Z amz3: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-167/pull/2
2019-06-01T21:04:21Z amz3: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/srfi-168/pull/2
2019-06-01T21:04:38Z amz3: I will debug the functional database the best I can and request a final round.
2019-06-01T21:08:35Z rickbutton: is there a really good searchable version of r7rs-small lying around? I find myself trying to use the original PDF often for the standard library reference when messing with my toy compiler, but it's sometimes tedious.
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2019-06-01T21:23:44Z Zipheir: rickbutton: Not yet, AFAIK
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2019-06-01T22:44:17Z amz3: that said you can rendered the tex in html
2019-06-01T22:44:36Z amz3: rickbutton: I have it I think around, if you want I can upload it somewhere
2019-06-01T22:47:38Z TCZ: The requested URL was not found on this server.
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2019-06-01T23:02:35Z Zipheir: Or just grep the TeX.
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2019-06-01T23:24:40Z rickbutton: tex->html is a good idea
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2019-06-02T09:23:53Z amz3: the deadline for scheme workshop was extended, already 67 proposal plus mine
2019-06-02T09:24:07Z amz3: I defend my srfis in a lightning talk :)
2019-06-02T09:24:14Z amz3:  hopefully.
2019-06-02T09:24:26Z amz3: +will :/
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2019-06-02T19:12:18Z amz3: rudybot: drumroll
2019-06-02T19:12:18Z rudybot: amz3: ,drumroll
2019-06-02T19:12:21Z amz3: rudybot: ,drumroll
2019-06-02T19:12:28Z rudybot: amz3: your sandbox is ready
2019-06-02T19:12:31Z rudybot: amz3: error: eval:1:0: unquote: not in quasiquote <NEWLINE>   in: (unquote drumroll)
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2019-06-02T19:15:30Z amz3: rudybot: (import (okvs) (nstore)) (let ((store (okvs) (quadstore (nstore '(42) '(collection uid key value)))) (nstore-ask? okvs quadstore `(srfi 168 last-call ,(now)))))
2019-06-02T19:15:32Z rudybot: amz3: nstore = srfi 168
2019-06-02T19:15:52Z amz3: rudybot: what about okvs?
2019-06-02T19:15:54Z rudybot: amz3: what about the indentation in java mode is not working?
2019-06-02T19:17:42Z Zipheir: rudybot: You ask a silly question, you get a silly answer.
2019-06-02T19:17:50Z rudybot: Zipheir: I'm applying the "ask a silly question, get a silly answer" dictum
2019-06-02T19:19:11Z amz3: rudybot: what the next big SRFI?
2019-06-02T19:19:12Z rudybot: amz3: scheme is getting as big as cl if you include all the srfi's. which most do, no?
2019-06-02T19:19:25Z amz3: rudybot: is scheme too big to your taste?
2019-06-02T19:19:37Z rudybot: amz3: in racket I have a list of tuples and I do a map which transforms the tuple of ports into in ports. It's not a big deal, but I was wondering if there was a library that looked more like C way of doing things, I find it easier to handle. But it's just a matter of taste, I guess
2019-06-02T19:20:12Z amz3: meh
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2019-06-02T19:36:49Z amz3: seems like google wants to close google groups
2019-06-02T19:38:49Z wasamasa: shocking
2019-06-02T19:39:29Z Zipheir: Email is dying a slow death, and it sucks.
2019-06-02T19:41:02Z Zipheir: I guess all the Google Groups users are meant to move to Google+, oh wait...
2019-06-02T19:44:55Z weinholt: amz3, do you have a link?
2019-06-02T19:45:38Z amz3: i have no link but people on racket mailing are thinking about moving to discource or something
2019-06-02T19:45:53Z amz3: here is the link https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-167/ or https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-168
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2019-06-02T19:46:15Z amz3: also google asked strange question about google groups : "why are you using that application?"
2019-06-02T19:46:23Z wasamasa: lol
2019-06-02T19:46:32Z wasamasa: it's as if they forgot about their original mission
2019-06-02T19:46:53Z wasamasa: making everything accessible on the web
2019-06-02T19:46:58Z amz3: yes
2019-06-02T19:47:20Z amz3: it seems like microsoft embrace, extend extenguish
2019-06-02T19:47:26Z amz3: they did the same with google reader
2019-06-02T19:48:09Z wasamasa: https://gcemetery.co/
2019-06-02T19:50:50Z amz3: they killed the shotening service goo.gl but it keeps old links... there is something to understand here.
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2019-06-02T19:51:17Z amz3: they want to play it nice somewhat x)
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2019-06-02T20:39:52Z Zipheir: goo.gl will never give up its old links.
2019-06-02T20:40:05Z Zipheir: "Google never throws anything away." --Moxie Marlinspike
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2019-06-03T03:22:12Z aos: How does scheme handle dictionaries or maps? The only thing I see so far is association lists
2019-06-03T03:22:20Z aos: Which... are not exactly the same
2019-06-03T03:22:46Z aos: O(n) lookup vs hash tables O(1)
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2019-06-03T03:33:42Z nisstyre: aos: most Schemes have some kind of hash table
2019-06-03T03:33:55Z nisstyre: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-69/srfi-69.html
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2019-06-03T03:34:25Z nisstyre: aos: anyway, you could implement a map as a tree too
2019-06-03T03:34:59Z nisstyre: which would give you O(log n) lookup
2019-06-03T03:35:03Z nisstyre: (for a BST)
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2019-06-03T03:36:45Z aos: Yeah makes sense -- seems like a lot of work just to get log n time tho
2019-06-03T03:37:06Z nisstyre: it depends on your use case and constraints
2019-06-03T03:37:18Z aos: Sorry I'm still new to scheme and fp in general, so I'm not sure what is commonly used in place of hash tables
2019-06-03T03:37:31Z aos: Or perhaps it requires that I think about the problem differently
2019-06-03T03:38:11Z nisstyre: aos: immutable hash tables are used quite a bit
2019-06-03T03:38:19Z nisstyre: even mutable ones
2019-06-03T03:38:42Z aos: As in srfi-69?
2019-06-03T03:38:48Z nisstyre: If your Scheme has arrays you could build your own hash table implementation
2019-06-03T03:38:50Z nisstyre: yes
2019-06-03T03:38:54Z nisstyre: just as you would in C
2019-06-03T03:39:27Z nisstyre: of course I wouldn't recommend using a home grown hash table
2019-06-03T03:39:34Z nisstyre: because it's likely to handle collisions badly
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2019-06-03T03:40:12Z nisstyre: aos: and if it wasn't clear, you can use lists to implement trees
2019-06-03T03:41:05Z nisstyre: e.g. '(1 (2 nil nil) (3 nil nil))
2019-06-03T03:42:32Z aos: Thanks nisstyre
2019-06-03T03:42:41Z nisstyre: no problem
2019-06-03T03:42:53Z nisstyre: aos: what are you using to learn Scheme?
2019-06-03T03:43:13Z aos: meaning what implementation? I'm using MIT/GNU
2019-06-03T03:43:27Z nisstyre: I meant what source, e.g. a book, tutorial, lectures, etc
2019-06-03T03:43:29Z aos: I'm on the last chapter of SICP and it's been elucidating just how much you can get done with just lists
2019-06-03T03:43:32Z nisstyre: ah ok SICP
2019-06-03T03:43:38Z nisstyre: cool
2019-06-03T03:43:51Z aos: But I feel like everything we've built so far has had some pretty terrible running time lol
2019-06-03T03:43:56Z nisstyre: I was going to recommend The Little Schemer
2019-06-03T03:44:13Z aos: I have that book ! I'll get through it once I finish SICP
2019-06-03T03:44:13Z nisstyre: aos: part of that may be MIT/GNU Scheme is not the most advanced system out there
2019-06-03T03:44:19Z nisstyre: you might have better luck with Guile
2019-06-03T03:44:42Z aos: What's the recommended implementation? Or does each one have its own pros/cons
2019-06-03T03:44:49Z nisstyre: it's up to you really
2019-06-03T03:44:51Z nisstyre: I like Racket
2019-06-03T03:45:04Z adu: Racket is nice
2019-06-03T03:45:17Z aos: I didn't know Racket was a scheme
2019-06-03T03:45:31Z nisstyre: well it isn't *just* Scheme
2019-06-03T03:45:47Z nisstyre: but it definitely implements the standards in various ways
2019-06-03T03:46:33Z aos: Ah I see
2019-06-03T03:46:47Z aos: In that sense aren't most Lisps "schemes"
2019-06-03T03:46:57Z nisstyre: ehh
2019-06-03T03:47:03Z aos: Or am I missing something
2019-06-03T03:47:11Z nisstyre: aos: do you know the difference between a lisp-1 and lisp-2?
2019-06-03T03:47:19Z aos: Hmm nope
2019-06-03T03:47:30Z nisstyre: basically, in Scheme, you have one kind of namespace
2019-06-03T03:47:38Z nisstyre: and it gets used for both functions and other values
2019-06-03T03:48:08Z nisstyre: i.e. if I do (define (f x) x) and (define f 12)
2019-06-03T03:48:23Z nisstyre: `f' is in the same namespace
2019-06-03T03:48:29Z nisstyre: that's not true for common lisp
2019-06-03T03:48:29Z aos: You pretty much clobber the first definition
2019-06-03T03:48:44Z aos: Oh interesting
2019-06-03T03:49:01Z nisstyre: yeah, they have different namespaces
2019-06-03T03:49:45Z nisstyre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp#The_function_namespace
2019-06-03T03:49:56Z aos: That must be a lisp thing, because most languages I've worked with don't do that
2019-06-03T03:50:33Z nisstyre: it is something unique to lisp as far as I know yeah
2019-06-03T03:50:39Z nisstyre: there might be other systems that do it that I'm not aware of
2019-06-03T03:54:46Z aos: That's very cool -- learned something new
2019-06-03T03:55:19Z nisstyre: aos: the book Lisp In Small Pieces has a lot of good info on the differences between Scheme and Lisp
2019-06-03T03:55:39Z nisstyre: I guess there's a bit of confusion about what a Lisp is and what Scheme is
2019-06-03T03:56:00Z nisstyre: I would say Scheme is a lisp, but not Lisp in the proper noun sense
2019-06-03T03:56:14Z nisstyre: and Common Lisp is something that is based on Lisp
2019-06-03T03:56:33Z aos: Yeah -- I think it doesn't help that SICP refers to Scheme as a Lisp language
2019-06-03T03:56:39Z aos: It definitely shows its age!
2019-06-03T03:56:42Z nisstyre: yep, I was just thinking of that
2019-06-03T03:57:10Z nisstyre: the fact that it's so old and has a complex tree of languages doesn't help
2019-06-03T03:57:37Z nisstyre: just like real languages
2019-06-03T03:57:52Z aos: Haha yep
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2019-06-03T04:07:29Z Zipheir: Some schemes also provide "pure" mappings of some sort (probably LLRB trees), a la SRFI 146
2019-06-03T04:07:35Z Zipheir: rudybot: SRFI 146
2019-06-03T04:07:36Z rudybot: Zipheir: I meant SRFI 146
2019-06-03T04:07:45Z Zipheir: rudybot: Useless!
2019-06-03T04:07:46Z rudybot: Zipheir: deek0146, Sort of, yes.  When people use javadoc/doxygen/qdoc/whatever they mostly don't write manuals but just say something useful (and sometimes useless) things about the API calls.
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2019-06-03T04:11:31Z aos: Are SRFIs implemented separated by separate schemes?
2019-06-03T04:11:38Z Zipheir: So you're not condemned to rewriting functional code to fit SRFI 69 hashtables.
2019-06-03T04:11:41Z aos: Or do they all get together and use a single implementation
2019-06-03T04:12:11Z Zipheir: They're supposed to be in standard scheme, possibly depending on other SRFIs as well, AFAIK
2019-06-03T04:12:57Z Zipheir: Portability is of the essence, in any case.
2019-06-03T04:15:13Z aos: I'm reading srfi 146 -- can you explain what "purely functional" means?
2019-06-03T04:20:48Z Zipheir: Functional programming is a big subject.  In a nutshell, a pure functional structure is never "changed"--it's created and "updated" by returning a new copy.
2019-06-03T04:22:15Z Zipheir: Lists are a good example: (cons x xs) updates xs, i.e. it returns a list identical to xs with x inserted at the head.
2019-06-03T04:22:20Z Zipheir: But xs is not mutated.
2019-06-03T04:23:14Z aos: Got it thanks Zipheir
2019-06-03T04:27:04Z Zipheir: Scheme tends to segregate side-effecting procedures with a !
2019-06-03T04:27:14Z Zipheir: e.g. set!, set-car!
2019-06-03T04:28:20Z Zipheir: In the standard language, at least, it's pretty easy to tell when something's being mutated.
2019-06-03T04:29:36Z nisstyre: aos: a big part of pure functional programming is the idea that your inputs are the only thing that determine your outputs, referential transparency
2019-06-03T04:29:52Z nisstyre: that's a bit of a messy topic though
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2019-06-03T04:30:26Z nisstyre: because you now have to define exactly what you mean by inputs and outputs
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2019-06-03T04:31:12Z nisstyre: for example, are exceptions a form of output?
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2019-06-03T04:38:39Z Zipheir: nisstyre: You're diving straight into the dark, dank corners of the subject :)
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2019-06-03T04:39:18Z Zipheir: "When I say Lisp is 'functional', I mean like a mathematical function, not in the sense that other languages are non-functional." --Larry Wall
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2019-06-03T04:40:38Z nisstyre: that's a good way of putting it
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2019-06-03T04:46:21Z Zipheir: I like how SICP's models of computation deals with the distinction.  The substitution model (beta reduction, in essence) holds until adding assignment forces you to tear the whole thing down and come up with the environment model.
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2019-06-03T06:46:16Z ChoHag: The only thing messy about functional programming is that it's mathematical beauty and purity is ruined utterly when it smashes face-first into the real world.
2019-06-03T06:46:54Z ChoHag: Turns out the real world's not very functional after all.
2019-06-03T06:49:38Z aeth: The real world can often be approximated in a functional way. That's literally what mathematical modelling is. The problem is that the mismatch with how hardware works is considerable so performance is difficult.
2019-06-03T06:50:09Z ChoHag: You already introduced the problem with "approximated" and then compounded it with "modelling".
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2019-06-03T06:50:44Z aeth: If you count statistics with mathematics, then basically the entire world runs on this.
2019-06-03T06:50:45Z ChoHag: Which is rather the point.
2019-06-03T06:51:45Z ChoHag: And yes, how is statistics now maths?
2019-06-03T06:51:57Z ChoHag: not
2019-06-03T06:52:00Z ChoHag: And yes, how is statistics not maths?
2019-06-03T06:52:21Z aeth: With math, we approximate discrete reality with continuous functions because they're way easier to work with... and then we put them on computers and approximate them discretely. But it works.
2019-06-03T06:53:43Z aeth: A lot of the time, exact solutions are impossible and we need numerical solutions, anyway.
2019-06-03T06:54:31Z ecraven: reality is discrete?
2019-06-03T06:58:55Z aeth: ecraven: Am I misinterpreting "quantum"? I might be.
2019-06-03T06:59:25Z aeth: This is philosophy of physics, I guess.
2019-06-03T06:59:46Z ecraven: I am not sure.. my (almost non-existant) understanding is that we just don't *know* how to deal with time / space smaller than whatever, but I'm not sure you could say that time / space is discrete
2019-06-03T07:00:08Z ecraven: but again, my understanding of quantum physics is about this much: || ;)
2019-06-03T07:00:51Z aeth: Non-physicists talking about the word "quantum" is always a giant red flag so...
2019-06-03T07:01:15Z aeth: You're right, though.
2019-06-03T07:02:00Z aeth: The quantum units are the ones below which there is no current meaning, or something like that.
2019-06-03T07:05:41Z aeth: We are, for the most part, using continuous things to approximate discrete things, though, except maybe time. "Reality" doesn't really come into play since it's hard to really define.
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2019-06-03T07:10:40Z ChoHag: ecraven: Reality is both.
2019-06-03T07:10:45Z ChoHag: And more besides.
2019-06-03T07:10:57Z ChoHag: Because: <God> Why not?
2019-06-03T07:31:26Z ChoHag: FWIW, I believe time 'is' the act of discrete 'particles' interacting in specific, co-ordinated (atomic-in-the-indivisible-sense) ways.
2019-06-03T07:31:52Z ChoHag: So time and particles are treated as discrete but their medium might not be.
2019-06-03T07:32:18Z ChoHag: But that's already way beyond anything I can claim to have any vague certainty about.
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2019-06-03T07:43:50Z ski would say Scheme,Common Lisp,Emacs Lisp,&c. are Lisps, fwiw
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2019-06-03T07:44:23Z Zipheir: Saying "x programming paradigm is good except for the real world" is so vague as to be meaningless.
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2019-06-03T07:59:36Z Zipheir: And there's a very large body of research devoted to functional approaches to problems that would seem to require mutation.  It's not like functional programmers spend all their time beating their heads against the brick wall of side effecting reality.
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2019-06-03T08:31:47Z amz3: functional databases ftw!
2019-06-03T08:31:53Z amz3: ;)
2019-06-03T08:32:00Z amz3: need to debug tho
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2019-06-03T08:43:32Z ChoHag: Zipheir: I didn't say it was good except for the real world.
2019-06-03T08:43:55Z ChoHag: I said that when it encounters the real world its mathematical beauty/purity is destroyed.
2019-06-03T08:44:27Z ChoHag: I live in the real world. If I need a beautiful programming language that's been made ugly to achieve my goal, then that's fine by me.
2019-06-03T08:44:31Z ChoHag: I don't make value judgementrs.
2019-06-03T08:46:58Z ChoHag: At least until I can solve that pesky P/NP thing and assign a meaningful value to an arbitrary piece of code.
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2019-06-03T10:16:23Z aeth: ChoHag: Well, what the real world gives you is complexity... e.g. how modern physics modifies the equations of classical physics so they cover a wider range of cases.
2019-06-03T10:17:26Z ChoHag: "Complexity".
2019-06-03T10:17:33Z ChoHag: So much bound up in such a small word.
2019-06-03T10:17:48Z ChoHag: The Germans would probably have a better one, but you might need a scrollback buffer.
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2019-06-03T17:31:45Z amz3: is there an even naive implementation sat solver using amb?
2019-06-03T17:32:01Z amz3: the following article mention a macro, but there is no implementation:
2019-06-03T17:32:03Z amz3: http://matt.might.net/articles/programming-with-continuations--exceptions-backtracking-search-threads-generators-coroutines/
2019-06-03T17:32:04Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/tIJTeP1Av4
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2019-06-03T18:16:37Z rain1: [amb.scm] has it
2019-06-03T18:16:41Z rain1: its just brute force
2019-06-03T18:16:46Z rain1: depth first search
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2019-06-03T18:23:41Z Zipheir: SICP has a similar evaluator using explicit continuation arguments https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-28.html#%_sec_4.3
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2019-06-03T19:08:52Z amz3: rain1: amb.scm?
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2019-06-03T19:11:36Z gwatt: amz3: matt gives implementations of all the things he demonstrates, and amb.scm defines sat-solve
2019-06-03T19:11:38Z gwatt: http://matt.might.net/articles/programming-with-continuations--exceptions-backtracking-search-threads-generators-coroutines/amb.scm
2019-06-03T19:11:39Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/QSpCJQJKO8
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2019-06-03T20:25:41Z Riastradh: The value of amb isn't that it makes for some magic SAT solver algorithm that is better than what you can express without it.
2019-06-03T20:26:21Z Riastradh: The value of amb is that it can be used inside a complex program -- within limits -- which was not necessarily written up front to do nondeterministic choice.
2019-06-03T20:28:38Z ChoHag: Does amb stand for anything?
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2019-06-03T20:33:40Z ft: AMBiguous?
2019-06-03T20:34:36Z Riastradh: ambivalent?
2019-06-03T20:36:31Z gnomon: ambhipious
2019-06-03T20:36:40Z gnomon: ?
2019-06-03T20:37:52Z ft: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/basis1.pdf — §2.5
2019-06-03T20:38:13Z ft: "First we define a basic ambiguity operator amb(x, y)…"
2019-06-03T20:39:42Z wasamasa: oh noes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PX0BV9hGZY
2019-06-03T20:39:59Z gnomon: It offers several potential choices when asked about a course of action so I'm sure it stands for "ambassador"
2019-06-03T20:40:56Z gnomon: wasamasa, oh hey, did the URL change?
2019-06-03T20:41:22Z gnomon: wasamasa, I downloaded that video from YouTube ID 'EnDknmMXxFY'
2019-06-03T20:41:39Z wasamasa: what if I told you people can upload the same content under different IDs
2019-06-03T20:41:56Z wasamasa: I don't care much though, just wanted to share some cringe with you
2019-06-03T20:42:06Z wasamasa: JS people discovering advanced concepts such as TCO
2019-06-03T20:42:22Z wasamasa: there is a related one where they sing to tell map, filter and reduce apart...
2019-06-03T20:42:23Z Riastradh: (amb 'ambiguous 'ambivalent 'ambhipious 'ambassador ...)
2019-06-03T20:42:27Z gnomon: They had me at "musical"
2019-06-03T20:42:43Z gnomon: Riastradh, :D
2019-06-03T20:45:54Z gnomon: so many potential interpretations
2019-06-03T20:46:00Z gnomon: an ambarassment of riches
2019-06-03T20:50:13Z Zipheir: That video is incredible... I don't believe this was made in our universe.
2019-06-03T20:51:51Z Zipheir: We need some kind of Mystery Computer Science Theater 3000 to handle this stuff.
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2019-06-03T20:54:20Z gnomon looks up Erlang: the Movie
2019-06-03T20:57:33Z Zipheir: Perl 6: The Revenge, with Clint Eastwood as Larry Wall.
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2019-06-03T20:58:42Z Guest20194: hello gerald sussman!
2019-06-03T21:01:55Z Zipheir: Ah, er, hello, yes, I am Gerald Sussman, famous computor scientest, fizzsist and Nigerian prince.
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2019-06-03T21:03:42Z amz3: gwatt: tx a lot
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2019-06-05T03:33:37Z aos: Does anyone have a simple guide to understanding continuations?
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2019-06-05T03:33:46Z aos: Having a hard time wrapping my head around them
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2019-06-05T03:34:29Z aos: I _get_ them conceptually, but it feels like when I was first learning recursion... except this is on steroids
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2019-06-05T07:41:59Z rain1: the thing that helpde me understand them best was the continuation passing style transform
2019-06-05T07:43:11Z rain1: like how (f (x) (y 3)) can be turned into (x^ (lambda (xv) (y^ 3 (lambda (yv) (f^ xv yv exit)))))
2019-06-05T07:44:40Z rain1: http://matt.might.net/articles/cps-conversion/ http://matt.might.net/articles/by-example-continuation-passing-style/
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2019-06-05T08:49:45Z amz3: aos: what kind of continuations? those made with call/cc?
2019-06-05T08:50:46Z amz3: in callback-style, procedures are also called continuation
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2019-06-05T17:01:42Z Zipheir: Ugh, why aren't there any Schemers in this stupid region of the planet.
2019-06-05T17:02:02Z Zipheir: "Come to our meetup!  We're going to talk about agile development with Splunk and React!"
2019-06-05T17:02:09Z Zipheir: rudybot: Gag me with a spoon.
2019-06-05T17:02:15Z rudybot: Zipheir: "Gag me with a spoon"
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2019-06-05T17:18:26Z pjb: Zipheir: you don't need a region of the planet, when you have the Internet.
2019-06-05T17:19:12Z pjb: This is also why we don't see that many aliens; they just sent smart powder, scanned the planet, and now they access it thru VR on their internet…
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2019-06-05T17:20:50Z Zipheir: Heh, ok.
2019-06-05T17:27:01Z ski: (you mean they learned, since Adamski ?)
2019-06-05T17:28:54Z gwatt: Zipheir: what part of the world?
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2019-06-05T17:35:50Z Zipheir: gwatt: Rochester, New York area.
2019-06-05T17:36:47Z gwatt: Nothing interesting at RIT, even?
2019-06-05T17:37:30Z Zipheir: There might be.  Need to investigate that further.
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2019-06-05T18:09:48Z jcowan: aos: The continuation is simply the stack, the whole stack, and nothing but the stack.  The call/cc procedure packages up a copy of the current stack as a procedure (the _escape procedure_) and calls another procedure, the argument to call/cc, passing it the escape procedure.  If the escape procedure is called, its internal stack becomes the current stack and it returns.
2019-06-05T18:10:15Z jcowan: Because escape procedures are first-class, you can call them repeatedly and use them to jump down the current stack as well as up it.
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2019-06-05T18:18:45Z jcowan: See the first few lines of https://cs.wellesley.edu/~cs251/spring02/first-class-functions.pdf
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2019-06-05T18:22:18Z Riastradh: jcowan: Followup question: What is the stack?
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2019-06-05T18:30:54Z jcowan: Pffft.
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2019-06-05T18:31:46Z jcowan: It's a pile of plates in which you sometimes take off the top few plates and eat what is now exposed.  With call/cc, you can even put the plates back!
2019-06-05T18:32:22Z gnomon digs through the stack for the plate with the cookies on it
2019-06-05T18:32:24Z oni-on-ion: deck of cards =)
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2019-06-05T19:07:24Z TCZ: :/
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2019-06-05T19:21:41Z Riastradh: jcowan: So what you're saying is that call/cc is an excuse to eat toothpaste from the middle of the tube?
2019-06-05T19:23:16Z oni-on-ion: =) =)
2019-06-05T19:23:53Z TCZ: are you on #programming i cant be with those idiets, we are so mach better
2019-06-05T19:24:29Z oni-on-ion heard things about that place 
2019-06-05T19:24:54Z TCZ: hmm did i call you idiots too? :x
2019-06-05T19:25:30Z TCZ: sorry
2019-06-05T19:25:35Z TCZ: not me or you
2019-06-05T19:25:39Z TCZ: its only "we"
2019-06-05T19:27:10Z oni-on-ion: no no, i've never been there =)
2019-06-05T19:27:29Z oni-on-ion: i can only tolerate real humans that are self aware and aware of others etc.
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2019-06-05T19:27:48Z oni-on-ion: ...which happen to be lispers/schemers most of all
2019-06-05T19:27:53Z TCZ: i think i saw you here....
2019-06-05T19:28:09Z oni-on-ion: here in #scheme ?
2019-06-05T19:28:19Z TCZ: hmm yes
2019-06-05T19:28:46Z TCZ: or maybe it was other "channel/room"
2019-06-05T19:28:50Z TCZ: "chatroom"
2019-06-05T19:29:08Z TCZ: nvm
2019-06-05T19:29:26Z oni-on-ion: yep its ok. i think there are IRC commands to see the channels a user has joined
2019-06-05T19:29:45Z TCZ: i only know ignore and join
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2019-06-05T20:22:27Z jcowan: Riastradh: Or indeed from the rolled-up part of the tube, which magically refills
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2019-06-06T01:01:04Z amz3: https://github.com/github/semantic/blob/master/docs/why-haskell.md
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2019-06-06T01:07:34Z ski: "Wu et al's concept of higher-order effects" sounds interesting
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2019-06-06T01:20:58Z _leb: Anyone have experience with s7 scheme?
2019-06-06T01:27:37Z TCZ: ski is it about drugs
2019-06-06T01:28:41Z oni-on-ion: can apply much of this doc to ocaml as well
2019-06-06T01:28:47Z oni-on-ion: (especially now with monadic let)
2019-06-06T01:29:40Z ski: TCZ : mind drugs, possibly (the ones you can get high on, only by reading about it, thinking about it, hearing someone talk about it)
2019-06-06T01:30:35Z ski: _leb : dunno what that is. a Scheme implementation ?
2019-06-06T01:30:50Z _leb: Yea it is
2019-06-06T01:30:52Z _leb: hang on
2019-06-06T01:31:17Z _leb: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/s7.html
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2019-06-06T02:30:41Z ski: ok
2019-06-06T02:32:16Z edgar-rft: _leb: AFAIK s7 scheme is only used in Bill Schottstaedt's snd editor. There also exists a s7 scheme version of Rick Taube's Common Music. I'm not sure if s7 scheme is used anywhere else.
2019-06-06T02:33:30Z ski: the page also claims "Radium"
2019-06-06T02:35:20Z _leb: I understand
2019-06-06T02:35:54Z _leb: It's a simple scheme in 2 C files
2019-06-06T02:36:35Z _leb: I was having some problems configuring the REPL because I am more a Lisp guy than a Scheme hacker
2019-06-06T02:36:52Z _leb: but no worries I'll figure iit out
2019-06-06T02:36:58Z _leb: That's half the fun anyway
2019-06-06T02:37:44Z _leb: I think other people have used it as an embedded scheme
2019-06-06T02:38:07Z edgar-rft: Schottstaedt and Taube wrote their software originally in a mix of Common Lisp and C what turned out to be a maintainance nightmare so Bill Schottstaedt decided some years ago to write his own Scheme interpreter. It's a modified TinyScheme if I know that right.
2019-06-06T02:41:54Z edgar-rft: There is a small community of s7 users on the cmdist@ccrma.Stanford.EDU mailing list.
2019-06-06T02:43:20Z edgar-rft: Here's the subscription page: https://cm-mail.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/cmdist
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2019-06-06T03:20:58Z Zipheir: edgar-rft: Wow, that's the first I've heard of snd.  Looks like an awesome project.
2019-06-06T03:21:29Z Zipheir: Sound-editing software extensible in scheme! https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/snd.html
2019-06-06T03:23:08Z ski . o O ( Lilypond )
2019-06-06T03:23:47Z Zipheir: I suppose Lilypond is "sound-editing" in the sense that it can emit MIDI...
2019-06-06T03:24:20Z Zipheir: But a scorewriter's certainly a different level of abstraction.
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2019-06-06T03:32:00Z pjb: Zipheir: nope, MIDI cannot edit sound.
2019-06-06T03:32:07Z edgar-rft: Lilypond's MIDI capabilities are rather poor. :( Snd and Common Music are mainly used by people from music and art universities. The user base isn't really huge.
2019-06-06T03:33:08Z Zipheir: Oh, right, Schottstaedt's the guy behind CLM as well.
2019-06-06T03:33:20Z Zipheir: pjb: ?
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2019-06-06T03:35:28Z pjb: Zipheir: MIDI is not designed for sound editing, it's not it's purpose.  It could be abused, using SysEX to actually edit sound, but I never actually saw it done, apart from the transfer of sound samples with samplers.
2019-06-06T03:36:09Z edgar-rft: Zipheir: yes, CLM (Common Lisp Music) was first, then came snd and it turned out to be really hard to maintain a Common Lisp FFI to all that graphics and audio stuff witten in C.
2019-06-06T03:36:45Z pjb: And in anycase, you would have to do the sound editing your own systems, since I know of no MIDI device that has SysEx to actually edit the sound samples (the most you can do (apart from the previously mentionned transfer of samples) would be to edit a sample loop, which can hardly be called sound editing).
2019-06-06T03:37:10Z Zipheir: pjb: Ah, OK.  I know, my point was that _in a very limited sense_ you could call that sound editing.
2019-06-06T03:37:42Z Zipheir: pjb: Also, MIDI totally sucks.
2019-06-06T03:38:05Z pjb: If you try to use for sound editing, sure.
2019-06-06T03:38:31Z pjb: Otherwise, there's MIDI-2; you might like it.
2019-06-06T03:38:31Z pjb:  
2019-06-06T03:38:55Z pjb: https://djtechtools.com/2019/01/23/midi-2-0-is-coming-prototyping-of-new-generation-of-midi-devices-underway/
2019-06-06T03:40:50Z Zipheir: I mean, it's a legacy hardware protocol that has unfortunately become sort of a standard medium for a huge amount of music-oriented software.
2019-06-06T03:41:00Z Zipheir: Huh, MIDI-2
2019-06-06T03:41:31Z edgar-rft: MIDI is a remote-control protocol for inter-connecting MIDI hardware. It makes some limited sense to use a MIDI editor like Rosegarden to write some melodies for playback on MIDI hard- or software. But MIDI cannot handle audio at the sample level.
2019-06-06T03:43:06Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-06-06T03:44:04Z Zipheir: And also very much tied to standard Western music conventions, e.g. 12-tone equal temperment, but I digress.
2019-06-06T03:44:31Z pjb: Like unicode, it's slanted.
2019-06-06T03:44:56Z edgar-rft: You can simulate 24-tone (and others) via pitch-bend.
2019-06-06T03:45:00Z pjb: But otherwise, MIDI file is the vectorial format for music, compared to the bitmap of the various sample-based sound files.
2019-06-06T03:45:31Z pjb: And there's always SysEX :-)
2019-06-06T03:46:44Z Zipheir: edgar-rft: Right, of course.  But we've got sound cards that can produce any pitch imaginable, so it's a pretty crummy makeshift.
2019-06-06T03:46:59Z edgar-rft: Common Music has lots of examples for (mis)-using MIDI for all sorts of non-tempered tunings.
2019-06-06T03:47:21Z Zipheir: Interesting.
2019-06-06T03:49:10Z edgar-rft: Zipheir: I totally agree the MIDI has severe limitations, for example until today I'm a pretty crappy keyboard player for just the simple rason that on a keyboard I cannot play notes "between the keys".
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2019-06-06T03:52:07Z Zipheir: Most musicians are slaves to some 13th-century French carpenter, or whoever it was invented the "7 white, 5 black" paradigm. :)
2019-06-06T03:55:12Z edgar-rft: There is a free online copy of Rick Taube's "Notes from the Meta-Level" that describes and explains the Common Lisp version of Common Music. Just click on the lambda logo: https://www.moz.ac.at/sem/lehre/lib/cm/Notes%20from%20the%20Metalevel/index.html
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2019-06-06T03:56:54Z edgar-rft: Umm, shit! That's only the example code version. But I'm sure that he made the full text online some years ago. Will continue searching...
2019-06-06T03:57:16Z Zipheir: edgar-rft: Still, interesting.  Thanks for sharing.
2019-06-06T03:58:19Z Zipheir: Hah, one of the '14 etudes' is implementing Steve Reich's Piano Phase in CLM.
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2019-06-06T04:24:45Z edgar-rft: Zipheir: bad news, nothing found so far. There is a new version of the book from 2013 and I'm still sure that there was a free verion of the old book on some university site, probably the Mozarteum in Vienna where also the other link is from. But maybe they removed that page when the new book came out. :(
2019-06-06T04:25:49Z edgar-rft: However, Notes from the Meta Level is the best book I ever read about Lisp and MIDI. Rick Taube systematically drives MIDI over its limits :-)
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2019-06-06T05:09:38Z Riastradh: Zipheir: Consider expanding horizons beyond Scheme?  There's plenty of interesting computational ideas out there other than agile nuts!
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2019-06-06T05:12:13Z Riastradh: If you're near a university, look for a schedule of talks.  One can often just waltz in off the street.  Maybe it's not Schemers talking but I bet you can find something interesting.
2019-06-06T05:17:45Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Thanks, both good points.
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2019-06-06T16:55:39Z leb: Thanks guys for the all the info
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2019-06-06T17:11:53Z rain1: np
2019-06-06T17:15:38Z Zipheir: Did you get s7 working?
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2019-06-06T21:31:01Z jcowan: Zipheir: Vincenzo Galilei (yeah, the great man's father) discussed the matter and published the oldest known set of 24 compositions -- for the lute -- in 1584
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2019-06-06T22:20:49Z Zipheir:  jcowan: Nice, I'll try to find a recording of it.
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2019-06-07T20:27:34Z leb: Is there a classical example of a 2 functional mutually tail recursive function>
2019-06-07T20:27:36Z leb: ?
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2019-06-07T20:30:34Z weinholt: i remember seeing even? written in terms of odd?, and odd? written in terms of even?
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2019-06-07T20:31:37Z jcowan: There's an example in R6RS of them as mutually recursive *macros*, even.
2019-06-07T20:34:31Z jcowan: or no, apparently not
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2019-06-08T05:51:26Z ChoHag: So, uh, schemers.org looks a bit broken.
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2019-06-08T11:03:32Z namoamitabuddha: Hello
2019-06-08T11:04:02Z namoamitabuddha: I am confused
2019-06-08T11:04:27Z namoamitabuddha: (define b a)
2019-06-08T11:05:02Z namoamitabuddha: If a is an integer, then the storages of a and b are not shared
2019-06-08T11:05:12Z namoamitabuddha: However, if a is a pair, then the storages are shared.
2019-06-08T11:06:05Z ggole: That's not necessarily true, a bignum would probably not be copied.
2019-06-08T11:07:26Z namoamitabuddha: What is the speculation?
2019-06-08T11:07:46Z wasamasa: scheme is a standard, not an implementation without a standard
2019-06-08T11:07:56Z wasamasa: you cannot make blanket statements about implementation details
2019-06-08T11:09:00Z wasamasa: one could very well implement a scheme where integers are stored in pre-allocated objects and allow the user to mess with these
2019-06-08T11:09:20Z ggole: So another issue here is that pairs have mutable parts in Scheme, and so whether there is sharing between a and b or not is not up to the implementation (in so far as you can tell the difference with mutation or eq, anyway).
2019-06-08T11:09:40Z wasamasa: if you want to make blanket statements, read the standard
2019-06-08T11:09:59Z namoamitabuddha: The standard stipulates the concept of the storage.
2019-06-08T11:10:26Z namoamitabuddha: Which one is preferred? R5RS, R6RS or R7RS?
2019-06-08T11:10:32Z wasamasa: that's up to you :P
2019-06-08T11:11:18Z namoamitabuddha: I am asking what is generally accepted to be preferred. This is a preference of the community, which I don't know.
2019-06-08T11:11:43Z wasamasa: there is none
2019-06-08T11:11:52Z wasamasa: we have factions of r5rs, r6rs and r7rs fans
2019-06-08T11:11:58Z wasamasa: we even have CL fans in here
2019-06-08T11:12:05Z wasamasa: pick your poison
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2019-06-08T11:12:52Z wasamasa: anyway, if I look at r7rs-small, the small part about storage is merely about mutability/immutability, not sharing
2019-06-08T11:13:55Z wasamasa: the few occurrences of shared are about shared/self-referential parts of a data structure
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2019-06-08T11:14:38Z cocomo: hi there i want to ask about continuation passing style. Can a continuation be invoked more than once? If the continuation is invoked once, does any remaining computation in the context ignored?
2019-06-08T11:15:02Z cocomo: I use this example from scheme.com website to be more clear
2019-06-08T11:15:03Z cocomo: (call/cc
2019-06-08T11:15:04Z cocomo:   (lambda (k)
2019-06-08T11:15:04Z cocomo:     (* 5 (k 4)))) <graphic> 4
2019-06-08T11:15:44Z cocomo: is (* 5 _) in the above example ever called, on what? is it ignored?
2019-06-08T11:16:15Z ggole: Undelimited continuations do not ever return.
2019-06-08T11:16:26Z wasamasa: from what I understand, the current computation is replaced
2019-06-08T11:16:30Z ggole: So (* 5 _) will never run.
2019-06-08T11:16:34Z wasamasa: it's not so much about ignoring
2019-06-08T11:17:03Z ggole: And yes, a continuation can be invoked more than once.
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2019-06-08T11:18:19Z cocomo: shouldn't any subsequent invocations of continuation ignored just like (* 5 _) was?
2019-06-08T11:19:06Z ggole: No? Why would they be?
2019-06-08T11:19:07Z cocomo: can you give me an example of calling continuation twice? maybe you are assigning the continuation to a global
2019-06-08T11:21:21Z ggole: Sorry to dive out at a bad time, but dinner is just ready.
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2019-06-08T11:31:41Z namoamitabuddha: I am still confused
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2019-06-08T11:32:19Z namoamitabuddha: Is that sharedness not well-defined in the standard?
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2019-06-08T11:38:22Z wasamasa: read it yourself
2019-06-08T11:39:31Z wasamasa: the goal of the standard is to specify a useful language while giving implementors leeway to pursue all kinds of interesting ways to implement it
2019-06-08T11:40:03Z wasamasa: what you describe is most likely outside its scope and behavior common to many implementations
2019-06-08T11:40:10Z wasamasa: it doesn't mean though that it's to be taken for granted
2019-06-08T11:40:35Z wasamasa: perhaps if you show some code you're having issues with we can help you
2019-06-08T11:44:47Z namoamitabuddha: Literally
2019-06-08T11:45:13Z namoamitabuddha: The standard stipulates the concept of an object, and the concept of whether two objects are identical.
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2019-06-08T11:45:49Z namoamitabuddha: It is left to implementator that whether eq? tests identification of objects, say.
2019-06-08T11:50:05Z wasamasa: I've yet to figure out what your issue is
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2019-06-08T11:54:52Z TCZ: Observable equivalence is a central concept from the study of programming languages.
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2019-06-08T11:59:29Z namoamitabuddha: I meant, things like https://pastebin.com/hGACGm0G
2019-06-08T12:00:04Z wasamasa: that goes into mutation
2019-06-08T12:00:18Z wasamasa: in one case you mutate a binding, in another a pair
2019-06-08T12:01:01Z wasamasa: if you changed the example to use set! for both cases, you'd see nothing unusual whatsoever
2019-06-08T12:02:45Z wasamasa: one more tip: if you abstain from mutation, you'll be much happier with writing scheme
2019-06-08T12:04:17Z namoamitabuddha: Without mutation it's pure functional programming.
2019-06-08T12:04:23Z mdhughes: Also interestingly Racket has immutable pairs by default. It's not exactly r6rs or anything except Racket now.
2019-06-08T12:05:03Z namoamitabuddha: I am trying to understand the standard storage model of mutatable objects.
2019-06-08T12:05:56Z wasamasa: it's briefly explained in r7rs-small
2019-06-08T12:06:19Z namoamitabuddha: Yes, I am reading it.
2019-06-08T12:06:45Z wasamasa: just as much as needed to establish a firm base
2019-06-08T12:06:59Z wasamasa: like, that a mutable object has just enough storage to hold the number of indicated elements
2019-06-08T12:07:10Z wasamasa: and what kinds of objects are mutable
2019-06-08T12:07:30Z TCZ: for two natural numbers, L for large and S for small, the greatest common divisor is equal to the greatest common divisor of S and the remainder of L divided by S.
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2019-06-08T12:20:13Z jcowan: This is why the standard talks about locations, not just about variables and values like most programming-language standards.  A variable is bound to a location, which holds a value.  Some values are themselves made of locations, like pairs and vectors.  (Strings are also technically a fixed number of locations which can only hold characters, but think more than twice before you mutate a string.)
2019-06-08T12:20:42Z namoamitabuddha: Well, let me first ignore strings
2019-06-08T12:22:09Z namoamitabuddha: "Some values are themselves made of locations, like pairs and vectors"
2019-06-08T12:22:20Z jcowan: But an implementation does not have to implement a location as a pointer, if it knows that it is never mutated.  Whether a local variable is mutated can be determined by looking at all uses of it.
2019-06-08T12:22:31Z namoamitabuddha: I cannot figure it out in R7RS
2019-06-08T12:22:38Z jcowan: Yes.  A pair is precisely two locations.
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2019-06-08T12:23:24Z namoamitabuddha: I mean, where can I see this stipulation?
2019-06-08T12:23:37Z namoamitabuddha: In the standard, I look at pairs, and it says something very vague
2019-06-08T12:24:23Z namoamitabuddha: It reads "a pair is a record structure with two fields called the car and cdr fields"
2019-06-08T12:24:53Z namoamitabuddha: Ah, sorry
2019-06-08T12:25:13Z jcowan: yes, "fields" here should probably have been "locations", but that's very old prose.
2019-06-08T12:25:18Z namoamitabuddha: Yes
2019-06-08T12:25:24Z namoamitabuddha: This is stipulated in 5.5
2019-06-08T12:26:07Z jcowan: Yes.
2019-06-08T12:27:37Z jcowan: Similarly, if an implementation sees that no mutators are mentioned in a define-record-type, it is free to have a clever non-location implementation.
2019-06-08T12:29:12Z jcowan: most systems don't bother, because even if the fields of the record are non-mutable, that's not saying what type they have.
2019-06-08T12:29:14Z namoamitabuddha: Implementation is a translation
2019-06-08T12:29:21Z jcowan: Always.
2019-06-08T12:29:35Z namoamitabuddha: I see them as translations from the language model to the hardware model
2019-06-08T12:29:54Z jcowan: Exactly!
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2019-06-08T12:31:28Z jcowan: The TC transformational compiler for Scheme takes the Scheme program and modifies it into simpler and simpler versions of Scheme until it can say "Hey, this is just assembly language with different syntax (all variables are registers, e.g.)" and it can output assembly or machine language.
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2019-06-08T12:32:09Z jcowan: Chicken has in some ways a harder job because it has to take Scheme apart and build up corresponding C, a language with a very different model.
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2019-06-08T12:33:07Z namoamitabuddha: The contents of locations are objects, correct?
2019-06-08T12:33:09Z jcowan: But it gains the advantage that C compilers exist for every conceivable platform and make better code all the time.
2019-06-08T12:33:20Z jcowan: Yes.  Everything in Scheme is an object.
2019-06-08T12:34:06Z jcowan: (Well.  Variables and syntax-rules macros are not.)
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2019-06-08T12:35:59Z jcowan: Data and procedures and the values they amass,
2019-06-08T12:36:00Z jcowan: Higher-order functions to combine and mix and match,
2019-06-08T12:36:00Z jcowan: Objects with their local state, the messages they pass,
2019-06-08T12:36:00Z jcowan: A property, a package, a control point for a catch —
2019-06-08T12:36:00Z jcowan: In the Lambda Order they are all first-class.
2019-06-08T12:36:00Z jcowan: One Thing to name them all, One Thing to define them,
2019-06-08T12:36:00Z jcowan: One Thing to place them in environments and bind them,
2019-06-08T12:36:01Z jcowan: In the Lambda Order they are all first-class.
2019-06-08T12:36:52Z wasamasa: what was the name of the piece about writing code that handles trees of pairs correctly?
2019-06-08T12:37:09Z jcowan: Not sure
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2019-06-08T12:37:46Z wasamasa: it's something that's far less of a pain in CL compared to scheme
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2019-06-08T12:39:07Z wasamasa: I remembered because it was typeset in a similar style to what you wrote earlier
2019-06-08T12:39:29Z namoamitabuddha: procedures are immutable?
2019-06-08T12:39:59Z wasamasa: how would mutable procedures even make sense, lol
2019-06-08T12:40:11Z wasamasa: that sounds like a php/js thing
2019-06-08T12:40:43Z namoamitabuddha: sounds like macro programming
2019-06-08T12:40:54Z wasamasa: yeah, no
2019-06-08T12:41:02Z wasamasa: I suggest you learn a bit more about scheme macros
2019-06-08T12:41:53Z amz3: namoamitabuddha: you think about monkey-patching?
2019-06-08T12:41:53Z namoamitabuddha: I don't mean scheme macros
2019-06-08T12:42:02Z wasamasa: well, we're in #scheme
2019-06-08T12:42:05Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/TreesCowan.md is an attempt at a tree SRFI, but I'm not very happy with it yet.
2019-06-08T12:42:12Z wasamasa: what else would we be talking about, if not scheme macros
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2019-06-08T12:43:25Z amz3: namoamitabuddha: what are you looking for?
2019-06-08T12:43:27Z jcowan: Procedures aren't generally mutable in their code, but they also contain the locations they close over representing free variables, and those can be mutable.
2019-06-08T12:43:58Z jcowan: "Procedures are just poor man's objects, but then objects are just poor man's procedures, too."
2019-06-08T12:44:09Z namoamitabuddha: these mutable objects are in fact in the environment
2019-06-08T12:44:23Z wasamasa: they contain a mutable environment, yes
2019-06-08T12:44:32Z wasamasa: you can write a procedure that when called mutates the environment
2019-06-08T12:44:39Z jcowan: Hence the phrase "objects with their local state" above.
2019-06-08T12:44:53Z wasamasa: it's all indirect though, unlike with strings, pairs, vectors, records, etc.
2019-06-08T12:45:49Z jcowan: I keep messing about with the idea of procedures that actually do look like records, or records that can be applied as procedures.
2019-06-08T12:47:36Z jcowan: To do it portably would require using procedures, and they have two drawbacks: (a) you can't ask a procedure "are you a record of type T?"; (b)  how do we know when a procedure is being invoked normally and when we are making calls to it to get or set one of its local variables?
2019-06-08T12:52:57Z namoamitabuddha: Well, a question for implementations: are OOP implements (as in SICP) optimized by compilers?
2019-06-08T12:53:10Z namoamitabuddha: I mean, these message passing are pre-computed during the compilation
2019-06-08T12:53:20Z wasamasa: TIAS
2019-06-08T12:53:46Z wasamasa: I doubt you can answer this in a generic way because there's more than one scheme compiler around
2019-06-08T12:54:22Z namoamitabuddha: Yeah, I mean a commercial compiler in general
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2019-06-08T12:54:32Z jcowan: The answer is no in general, but some Schemes like Kawa and Gauche are built around a classical OOP tree in the first place.
2019-06-08T12:54:53Z jcowan: This makes especial sense for Kawa, which generates code for the JVM.
2019-06-08T12:56:07Z wasamasa: experiment with chez scheme then
2019-06-08T12:56:32Z wasamasa: maybe it does, who knows :P
2019-06-08T12:56:35Z jcowan: Chez is fiendishly good at optimizing *everything*.
2019-06-08T12:56:43Z wasamasa: including building itself
2019-06-08T12:57:30Z namoamitabuddha: Is it easy for you guys to understand how it optimizes?
2019-06-08T12:57:35Z namoamitabuddha: Chez is open source now
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2019-06-08T12:57:48Z wasamasa: I don't think I'll ever use chez because r6rs
2019-06-08T12:57:56Z ggole: The source isn't particularly easy to understand
2019-06-08T12:58:48Z namoamitabuddha: I mean, for those who are familiar with compilers
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2019-06-08T13:09:32Z jcowan: It uses something called the nanopass framework, which I think is similar to the transformational compiler I described briefly above.
2019-06-08T13:09:52Z jcowan: There are papers on the framework itself.
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2019-06-08T14:03:53Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/9pQHFUrx
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2019-06-08T15:42:52Z rain1: hello
2019-06-08T15:43:33Z mdhughes: If you haven't used chez, you should, just so once you can experience a good REPL and realize how awful everyone else's are.
2019-06-08T15:44:16Z rain1: what's so good about the chez repl? I actually got frustrated with it because of the ideosyncratic way editing works (although I can imagine its good if you get used it), but also the debug features are lacking..
2019-06-08T15:45:30Z mdhughes: Fantastic editor (and yeah, it takes some practice, but the keys are familiar…). Debugging seemed fine to me, but all I do is print and look at a stack trace, since I think and then write code correctly the first time.
2019-06-08T15:47:39Z rain1: i might be doing something wrong but the stack traces dont seem to actually tell me anything
2019-06-08T15:47:56Z mdhughes: Like, type a function in. Now hit up, it'll show the first line, hit enter. Now you're in an editor. Not line by line, but structure by structure.
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2019-06-08T16:07:09Z ecraven: mdhughes: the chez stack trace is quite bad, as the optimizer is quite good, so you don't see many stack frames that you would see in other system's debuggers :P
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2019-06-08T16:09:02Z mdhughes: That's generally a positive: You don't want 15 duplicate calls, you want the unique functions you've bounced thru. And really you only need the last one, where you gave bad parameters to something.
2019-06-08T16:10:25Z ecraven: mdhughes: you haven't really debugged much, it seems...
2019-06-08T16:10:39Z mdhughes: But again, I'm a caveman. I learned to program when compiling was slow, so I stop and think, write out how things should work, and then implement. So I may code at 1/10 the speed of someone else but the only errors I make are API ordering and such.
2019-06-08T16:11:08Z ecraven: I generally want a *complete* trace, as the error might well be somewhere up the stack. in chez, I often don't *see* those frames, as well as the most recent frame (which I never seem to see in chez)
2019-06-08T16:13:04Z mdhughes: So the REPL feature I need is being able to carefully write some function, maybe spawn a new "cafe" for research, and when I'm done call it.
2019-06-08T16:14:24Z mdhughes: Doing that in Chicken is all but impossible. Even with breadline, it's just better to work in a text editor and paste in, because you can't edit effectively in its REPL.
2019-06-08T16:15:43Z mdhughes: An error can never be "up the stack", if you write things piecewise and think about them first.
2019-06-08T16:29:56Z amz3: some REPL can start the EDITOR,
2019-06-08T16:30:14Z amz3: I don't like the default behavior of the chez REPL either, I use rlwrap instead.
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2019-06-08T16:30:42Z amz3: as for debugging, it is not as easy as python, but it is doable
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2019-06-08T16:39:31Z jcowan: mdhughes: /me too
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2019-06-08T16:40:13Z mdhughes: jcowan: +1 for thinking first. It's a lost art.
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2019-06-08T16:40:53Z jcowan: Plan ahea.
2019-06-08T16:41:23Z mdhughes: 10-character buffer
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2019-06-08T17:01:43Z CORDIC: I thought programming is a synonym for planning possibly with some conotations.
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2019-06-08T18:32:23Z wasamasa: mdhughes: in case there's anything wrong with breadline, please let me know about it
2019-06-08T18:32:47Z wasamasa: mdhughes: as for replicating the chez experience, maybe you could get parley to do that (once its author ported it to C5)
2019-06-08T18:34:24Z mdhughes: If I hit up, breadline only pulls up the previous line instead of the entire term. It has no smart indentation. If I write a malformed term, I often end up with my next prompt midway across the screen. Buncha stuff like that, accurately duplicates the readline experience.
2019-06-08T18:35:02Z wasamasa: yup, it's a readline binding after all :P
2019-06-08T18:35:14Z wasamasa: going beyond readline is going to be hard
2019-06-08T18:35:33Z wasamasa: I'm glad I exposed some functionality the readline egg from C4 didn't
2019-06-08T18:35:37Z mdhughes: Doing smarter things requires a very different design, but it's worth it. Chez and Julia are the only REPLs I've been happy with in decades.
2019-06-08T18:35:47Z wasamasa: like, getting word definition right and paren blinking
2019-06-08T18:36:10Z mdhughes: Paren blinking does help, at least, so I don't have to stop and count.
2019-06-08T18:36:22Z wasamasa: there is limited support for "scripting", that is using scheme to send keys
2019-06-08T18:37:42Z ecraven: mdhughes: have you ever tried slime or geiser for interaction with scheme
2019-06-08T18:38:05Z wasamasa: slime/geiser move the problem towards emacs
2019-06-08T18:38:12Z wasamasa: which doesn't make them simpler :D
2019-06-08T18:39:24Z ecraven: I don't think you can find a better Scheme (or Lisp in general) editor than what emacs/edwin/slime provide
2019-06-08T18:39:43Z ecraven: paredit and show matching parens and rainbow delimiters and whatever else
2019-06-08T18:39:48Z jcowan just counts and then verifies with the % key in vi (almost the only time I use vi-mode)
2019-06-08T18:40:10Z wasamasa: the vi feature set gets you surprisingly far with editing lisp code
2019-06-08T18:41:03Z wasamasa: vim expands it to visual mode which allows you to replace a s-expression
2019-06-08T18:41:06Z ecraven: jcowan: I admire that, but I still believe that paredit enables me to execute the edits I want *faster* than plain movement commands
2019-06-08T18:42:01Z mdhughes: ecraven: I was an edwin user for a very long time. I hate emacs, but you do what you have to. But a real REPL is more efficient, if it also has an editor.
2019-06-08T18:42:41Z ecraven: for me, the combination of repl (slime) and editor (emacs with paredit) seems very nice ;)
2019-06-08T18:44:50Z jcowan: I don't worry about speed-of-programming very much.
2019-06-08T18:45:01Z jcowan: Actual productivity is not measured in LOC.
2019-06-08T18:45:13Z rain1: yeah
2019-06-08T18:45:18Z rain1: programs should be few LOC as possible
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2019-06-08T18:48:46Z ecraven: jcowan: I understand that, but I still want to execute my intentions as efficiently as I can.. if I *know* which change I want to make - after thinking about it for some time - I want that to be fast. not for throughput, but just to keep me concentrating on thinking, not executing / typing
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2019-06-08T18:51:00Z jcowan: Good point.  But the 'ex' command set is now completely hardwired in my fingers:  I don't edit with 'ex' any more than I type using my fingers (I am a fast touch typist): it is I who types, and my fingers just do it all automatically.
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2019-06-08T18:52:31Z ecraven: that's why I'll probably never switch away from something emacs-like, I can't even tell you what I hit, it's hardwired now
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2019-06-08T20:48:57Z amz3: hello again all, Arthur asked me if it I could create some kind of tutorial for SRFI-167 and SRFI-168 namely okvs and nstore.
2019-06-08T20:49:10Z amz3: well, he suggested it.
2019-06-08T20:49:46Z amz3: do you think about particular example use I can use?
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2019-06-08T20:52:19Z amz3: My plan is to create a tutorial in github repository with the chez bindings
2019-06-08T20:52:46Z amz3: and everything required to get going quickly (no docker involved I promise)
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2019-06-08T21:06:24Z amz3: or maybe a in-browser demo
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2019-06-08T21:27:37Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/ubzmAYdh
2019-06-08T21:27:50Z TCZ: hmm too simple
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2019-06-08T21:33:13Z TCZ: “geometry can be extended to account for objects with a fractional dimension. Such objects, known as fractals, come very close to capturing the richness and variety of forms found in nature. Fractals possess structural self-similarity on multiple ... scales, meaning that a piece of a fractal will often look like the whole.”
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2019-06-08T21:55:21Z TCZ: The Intermediate Value Theorem says that a continuous function f has a root in an interval [a,b] if f(a) and f(b) are on opposite sides of the x-axis.
2019-06-08T21:56:08Z TCZ: oh
2019-06-08T21:56:17Z TCZ: is it somehow connected with
2019-06-08T21:56:18Z TCZ: wait
2019-06-08T21:57:01Z TCZ: Borsuk–Ulam theorem
2019-06-08T21:57:27Z TCZ:  there is always a pair of antipodal points on the Earth's surface with equal temperatures and equal barometric pressures.
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2019-06-09T14:49:45Z outtabwz: what happened to schemers.org?  seems to have been deleted.
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2019-06-09T15:46:54Z jcowan: Just the name.  The Internet Archive still has it all, and if anyone remembers the IP address, I think you can stil use that.
2019-06-09T15:50:36Z jcowan: TCZ: You forgot to mention that the B-U theorem demands that both temperature and pressure vary continuously.  If there is a discontinuity at the 180 meridian, for example, then temperature can be just identified with longitude, and the theorem as you give it fails.
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2019-06-09T16:04:10Z Riastradh: whois record suggests that Rice University PLT still owns the name.
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2019-06-09T16:32:01Z TCZ: so discontinuity is when you have point A with temperature 30C and point B with 20C and you cant find point where temperature is 25
2019-06-09T16:32:10Z TCZ: between them
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2019-06-09T18:21:31Z moldybits: scheme sites going down lately?
2019-06-09T18:22:57Z rain1: yes
2019-06-09T18:23:00Z rain1: schemepocalypse
2019-06-09T18:23:09Z rain1: in a year nobody will be left that knows what scheme is
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2019-06-09T18:24:21Z wasamasa: lol
2019-06-09T18:24:47Z Zipheir: What went down now?
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2019-06-09T18:28:57Z wasamasa: schemers.org
2019-06-09T18:29:14Z Zipheir: ouch
2019-06-09T18:29:56Z wasamasa: hey, at least the srfi pages work
2019-06-09T18:32:51Z Riastradh: What is TCZ on about?
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2019-06-09T19:06:40Z amz3: what is scheme?
2019-06-09T19:11:32Z jcowan: Scheme is the striving for perfection, the dedication to excellence, the realization of mankind's fullest potential.  It is the focal point of a lens that can burn holes in reality. It is not the pledge to be perfect -- it is the pledge to never cease struggling toward perfection.  It is the fueling force of life, which will not let us rest short of becoming the best self we may be.  When this force is blocked by a conscious
2019-06-09T19:11:32Z jcowan: will, it burns the soul with guilt.  Guilt, fear, and their expressions, resentment, anger and hatred all stem from resisting growth towards one's best self.  Scheme is the life force which can be endured only when we choose the path of becoming our best. Scheme is the vast gulf between what we are and what we can be, the humbling knowledge of how far we have yet to go and the inspiring knowledge of what it will be like when we
2019-06-09T19:11:32Z jcowan: get there.  To know Scheme, you must dive deep within yourself ands come upon it within your own soul, and gain nothing of value to yourself, but only to others.
2019-06-09T19:11:55Z jcowan: (Unless, that is, you are lucky enough to do Scheme for a living somewhere.)
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2019-06-09T19:32:24Z oni-on-ion: =( =(
2019-06-09T19:32:58Z TCZ: ))
2019-06-09T19:37:46Z Zipheir: Scheme sounds a bit like Dr. Bronner's soap today...
2019-06-09T19:38:24Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, can this be applied to many things? =)
2019-06-09T19:38:49Z jcowan: Doubtless.  Indeed, I adapted it directly from something else.
2019-06-09T19:39:28Z oni-on-ion: i like it
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2019-06-09T19:44:17Z amz3: me too
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2019-06-09T22:50:09Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/cu6Grxtx
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2019-06-09T23:50:30Z pjb: TCZ: This page has been removed! This page is no longer available. It has either expired, been removed by its creator, or removed by one of the Pastebin staff.
2019-06-09T23:53:53Z TCZ: it was algorithm for creating gold of wood
2019-06-09T23:54:27Z TCZ: from
2019-06-09T23:54:28Z TCZ: hmm
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2019-06-10T00:11:04Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/d1Dh9yDa
2019-06-10T00:11:25Z TCZ: htdp exercise
2019-06-10T00:12:04Z pjb: ok
2019-06-10T00:12:09Z TCZ: ok
2019-06-10T00:12:34Z TCZ: i dont have any questions about it
2019-06-10T00:15:23Z TCZ: is finishing this book enough to find programming job
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2019-06-10T00:16:04Z TCZ: ok dont answer
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2019-06-10T02:28:37Z Zipheir: If you finish How To Design Programs, I suppose you are qualified to Design Programs...
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2019-06-10T11:03:40Z TCZ: "The root of a table t is a number in (table-array t) that is close to 0."
2019-06-10T11:04:13Z TCZ: so if table has no value close to zero it has no root?
2019-06-10T11:04:30Z TCZ: or they mean value closest to zero is root
2019-06-10T11:04:33Z TCZ: hmm
2019-06-10T11:05:23Z TCZ: i think its first case because they propose linear search so i dont have to check all table
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2019-06-10T12:31:57Z TCZ: All 16 tests passed
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2019-06-10T13:16:33Z Riastradh: Has anyone seen anything coherent come out of TCZ?
2019-06-10T13:17:50Z gwatt: not recently
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2019-06-10T14:05:05Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/2uXHk87S
2019-06-10T14:05:52Z TCZ: wrong...
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2019-06-10T14:39:38Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/90SVgbdP
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2019-06-10T14:42:58Z Riastradh: TCZ: Are you asking a question, or trying to hold a conversation?
2019-06-10T14:43:15Z TCZ: pasting without purpose
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2019-06-10T15:11:56Z rain1: dont do that
2019-06-10T15:12:02Z amz3: +1
2019-06-10T15:13:46Z TCZ: why, you dont want to read my code?
2019-06-10T15:13:51Z TCZ: programs*
2019-06-10T15:16:37Z TCZ: or maybe its about money, i shouldnt show you anything for free hmmm
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2019-06-10T15:21:26Z amz3: TCZ: it doesn't work like that. Your post lands here without any context to be interesting
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2019-06-11T06:52:35Z liangchao: Hi
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2019-06-11T07:11:38Z Zipheir: liangchao: Hello.
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2019-06-11T07:14:41Z liangchao: Hello. Does some guy use scheme instead of bash for sth simple.
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2019-06-11T07:17:38Z Zipheir: Sure.  Most Schemes can be used for scripting.  On *NIX it's often as simple as putting #!<path of your scheme interpreter> at the head of your Scheme program.
2019-06-11T07:18:43Z Zipheir: scsh is the One True Scheme Shell, which many implementations borrow pieces of https://scsh.net/
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2019-06-11T07:22:11Z Zipheir: And, of course, Scheme is much more fun to write than bash and much, much more expressive.
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2019-06-11T07:27:01Z amz3: #truestory
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2019-06-11T08:16:30Z wasamasa: any non-trivial shell script is better expressed in something not stringly typed anyway
2019-06-11T08:16:56Z wasamasa: the last thing I rewrote was a build script for an egg: https://github.com/wasamasa/breadline/blob/master/build-breadline.scm
2019-06-11T08:18:14Z wasamasa: the equivalent shell script was shorter, but so much easier to get wrong :<
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2019-06-11T09:33:05Z deuill: Anyone played around with Schism, the R6RS-to-WebAssembly compiler?
2019-06-11T09:33:47Z deuill: Seems like a promising project, and self-hosting to boot (though missing a few features)
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2019-06-11T09:46:11Z rain2: i looked at it, it doesn't have GC or TCO
2019-06-11T09:46:48Z rain2: you can't do scheme programming if you don't have TCO
2019-06-11T09:47:11Z ecraven: a few Schemes don't have TCO, I think
2019-06-11T09:47:20Z ecraven: some of the jvm ones, for example
2019-06-11T09:47:30Z ecraven: of course, maybe those should not be called "Scheme"
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2019-06-11T10:24:37Z jcowan: I think none of them flatly lack TCO, but some limit it to local procedures only.
2019-06-11T10:24:57Z jcowan: (iow, the ones that are easy to change into local gotos)
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2019-06-11T10:51:46Z TCZ: All 60 tests passed
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2019-06-11T10:59:14Z TCZ: Newton method repeatedly improves an approximation to the root until it is close enough
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2019-06-11T11:32:03Z TCZ: hmm so newton method is like rotating line on function curve?
2019-06-11T11:33:57Z deuill: AFAICT GC depends on runtime support at the VM level (apart from maybe a basic implementation), though not sure why TCO was left out. I suppose it's not a hard requirement for implementing a compiler, though the spec requires it.
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2019-06-11T13:17:10Z dTal: arguably TCO is an implementation detail, albeit one with extreme consequences
2019-06-11T13:17:20Z dTal: it doesn't alter the semantics of the language at all
2019-06-11T13:18:59Z ggole: Semantics aren't everything
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2019-06-11T13:21:43Z TCZ: domain experts know that doubling occurs after roughly 72/r month as long as the interest rate r is “small.”
2019-06-11T13:21:50Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/MQ5G45AX
2019-06-11T13:21:56Z TCZ: (i paste with some context)
2019-06-11T13:24:29Z TCZ: (but still without purpose)
2019-06-11T13:24:46Z TCZ: (hmm ok i found 1 purpose to teach you about rule 72)
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2019-06-11T14:16:00Z gwatt: If it's a mandatory implementation detail, is that not part of the semantics?
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2019-06-11T14:32:43Z dTal: I understand the practical reasons why it's mandated in the spec, but I think it's a stretch to call an implementation that doesn't do TCO "not Scheme"
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2019-06-11T14:34:12Z dTal: imagine if someone invented a magical quantum computer with infinite stack space, and there was no need for TCO, and someone flawlessly implemented R6Rs semantics on it - would it be fair to call that "not Scheme"?
2019-06-11T14:40:12Z aeth: dTal: Couldn't you argue that that's sort of like having a different kind of TCO?
2019-06-11T14:40:34Z gnomon: R6RS doesn't specify _how_ the TCO guarantee must be provided, only that the guarantee hold true.  If it's provided because of magic, as long as the implementation manages that guarantee, it should satisfy the spec.
2019-06-11T14:41:08Z rain2: dTal: it's not a stretch
2019-06-11T14:41:22Z rain2: if you don't have TCO you can't even use let loops
2019-06-11T14:41:32Z rain2: they will blow the stack on large inputs
2019-06-11T14:42:02Z gnomon: dTal, but I disagree that omitting that key guarantee is a minor thing.  Being able to rely on the safety of that guarantee changes how programs are written, and how the process of programming must be thought about.  It's not a small thing.
2019-06-11T14:42:24Z rain2: the reason it was important to bring this up is because (despite being under google/) that toy scheme compiler is useless
2019-06-11T14:43:33Z rain2: > not sure why TCO was left out
2019-06-11T14:43:51Z gwatt: as I understand, schism is a personal project of eholk and it's google hosted because he was working on it on google's time
2019-06-11T14:44:00Z rain2: the reason TCO was left out is that you can't webassembly doesn't provide you ways to do TCO (yet?)
2019-06-11T14:45:00Z rain2: webassembly is kind of a let down
2019-06-11T14:47:43Z dTal: Like I said, I understand the practical reasoning
2019-06-11T14:47:55Z dTal: but, rain2, all programs run out of memory on large input
2019-06-11T14:48:10Z dTal: the definition of "large" is qualitative, not quantitative
2019-06-11T14:48:11Z gnomon: oh this argument again
2019-06-11T14:48:24Z dTal: er, other way around
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2019-06-11T15:08:54Z rain2: > all programs run out of memory on large input
2019-06-11T15:09:14Z rain2: you get a stack overflow without TCO, it works with TCO
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2019-06-11T15:20:49Z Riastradh: dTal: The practical consequence of the rule is that you can write long-running programs in loops even on limited-memory machines.  Yes, you could claim compliance with a checkbox by aborting the program as soon as it does anything on the grounds that you've run out of memory, but nobody would be particularly amused by that.
2019-06-11T15:21:38Z Riastradh: dTal: In a theoretical sense, it qualitatively affects the space complexity classes of Scheme programs.
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2019-06-11T15:22:37Z Riastradh: The formal concept, of course, is _not_ `tail-call optimization', which is a local implementation detail about immediate reuse of stack frames.  The formal concept is defined in terms of the space complexity classes of programs written with tail-recursive procedures.
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2019-06-11T15:22:44Z Riastradh: And is usually called `proper tail recursion'.
2019-06-11T15:23:09Z Riastradh: There are different implementation techniques: TCO is one way to implement proper tail recursion; garbage-collecting the stack is another way.
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2019-06-11T17:45:38Z Zipheir: "proper tail recursion" sounds so Victorian.
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2019-06-11T17:51:23Z jcowan: To my mind, loops are a baby example of proper tail recursion; the sturdy toddler here is state machines.  In all other languages, a state machine is a big while-loop with a mutable variable holding the current state and a big case statement to decided what to do based on the value of that variable.
2019-06-11T17:52:00Z jcowan: In Scheme a state machine is a bunch of mutually recursive procedures: to go to the next state, just call the procedure that represents it.  You can even pass values to it rather than having to store them globally to the whole while-loop.
2019-06-11T17:52:22Z jcowan: s/call/tail-call
2019-06-11T17:54:25Z amz3: I stumbled upon this construct at some point and I had an hard time doing the same in python
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2019-06-11T18:01:25Z Zipheir: The sturdy toddler is the aspect that many naive implementations punt on, IIUC.
2019-06-11T18:02:30Z wasamasa: I found this aspect illuminating when implementing MAL in portable scheme
2019-06-11T18:03:01Z wasamasa: they have a step where you implement TCO with a while and changing the form to be evaluated, returning an eval call when needed
2019-06-11T18:03:18Z wasamasa: I went through all of these cases and realized that just doing a tail call did the right thing every time
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2019-06-11T18:17:40Z ober: nice
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2019-06-11T18:50:34Z TCZ: "haskell is the most advanced of the obsolete languages" haha
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2019-06-11T18:51:03Z Zipheir: TCZ: I know what talk you've been watching :)
2019-06-11T18:51:43Z Zipheir: Very general lazy eval question: is it a Bad Thing for a forced promise to sometimes evaluate to a promise?
2019-06-11T18:51:56Z Zipheir: e.g. in the parser-bind function here https://paste.debian.net/1087460/
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2019-06-11T18:52:39Z Zipheir: Sometimes we'll get a parse result from forcing.  Sometimes we'll get another promise.
2019-06-11T18:52:54Z Zipheir: (Fans may recognize the Parsec bind)
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2019-06-11T19:00:52Z Zipheir: Maybe I can distill the question.  Let f be some procedure returning a promise.  If I write something like (delay (if (<expensive-operation>) <some-strict-value> (f))), I will sometimes get a promise that evaluates to <some-strict-value> or to another promise.
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2019-06-11T19:02:25Z Zipheir: I don't have a proof that the number of delays is promises
2019-06-11T19:02:28Z Zipheir: oops
2019-06-11T19:02:35Z Zipheir: *is bounded
2019-06-11T19:08:53Z Zipheir: Eh, it seems reasonable to just accept it and keep forcing for now.
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2019-06-11T19:26:03Z nisstyre: Zipheir: I'm pretty sure thunks can be partially evaluated but I could be wrong
2019-06-11T19:26:14Z nisstyre: assuming promise = thunk
2019-06-11T19:33:48Z Zipheir: nisstyre: Makes sense.
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2019-06-11T19:36:29Z Zipheir: It's very possible I overreacted.  It was disconcerting to have thunks getting caught in the gears when I thought I'd forced them all.
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2019-06-11T19:49:59Z nisstyre: Zipheir: it's how Haskell works under the hood as far as I can tell
2019-06-11T19:50:09Z nisstyre: you don't want to build up huge chains of thunks though
2019-06-11T19:50:29Z nisstyre: but that shouldn't be a problem with (delay ...) afaict
2019-06-11T19:51:08Z nisstyre: although if you're doing something like (* (+ n (recusive-call))) it could be
2019-06-11T19:51:19Z nisstyre: where recursive-call produces another thunk
2019-06-11T19:52:40Z nisstyre: would be good to run a profiler and see how much memory something like that uses
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2019-06-11T20:00:26Z Zipheir: Good idea.
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2019-06-11T21:27:47Z TCZ: ufff
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2019-06-11T22:01:12Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/psPTYWBa
2019-06-11T22:01:32Z TCZ: htdp exercises numeric integration
2019-06-11T22:05:08Z Zipheir: Sometimes I wonder if TCZ is just using this channel as a programming diary...
2019-06-11T22:05:23Z TCZ: hmm
2019-06-11T22:07:02Z TCZ: but with diary you keep your notes
2019-06-11T22:07:07Z TCZ: and here everything is lost
2019-06-11T22:07:48Z Zipheir: Not so, it all goes to http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/
2019-06-11T22:08:40Z Zipheir: (And onto the disks of everyone who logs #scheme)
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2019-06-11T22:27:51Z [rg]: hello
2019-06-11T22:28:11Z Zipheir: [rg]: \o
2019-06-11T22:29:15Z [rg]: saw a talk so I decided to try chez scheme. I have been doing c for the past year and stuyding unix stuff recently so I have an idea to what to code, but what can I do with scheme today?
2019-06-11T22:30:06Z Zipheir: Expand your mind, at the very least.
2019-06-11T22:30:12Z [rg]: my prior experience was picolisp, and I've done functional programming as well etc.
2019-06-11T22:30:26Z Zipheir: That's good.
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2019-06-11T22:31:33Z [rg]: i think ultimately when I get to my shell, it will be done in a scheme, but right now not sure, trying to avoid more reading :P
2019-06-11T22:31:42Z Zipheir: Most Schemes have POSIX libraries, so if you're comfortable with C *nix programming the jump shouldn't be bad.
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2019-06-11T22:32:50Z [rg]: ok, that's good to hear
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2019-06-11T22:33:18Z [rg]: what is web stuff looking like for scheme?
2019-06-11T22:33:26Z [rg]: I'm not a web guy btw
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2019-06-11T22:35:05Z Zipheir: There's a lot of cool Web stuff for the various Schemes, but I'm not too familiar with it.  Plenty of other people here could provide some recommendations.
2019-06-11T22:35:37Z Zipheir: spock is intriguing: https://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/spock
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2019-06-11T23:30:09Z mdhughes: rg: Chicken, Chez, and Guile at least are pretty generally useful, you can build binaries and scripts like anything else.
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2019-06-11T23:33:22Z mdhughes: I've had a hard time making GUI or external-library-using programs out of Chez, but it's trivial with Chicken. Making a fast, scriptable web server in any of them is easy.
2019-06-11T23:37:47Z oni-on-ion: i think chez will get a little better now that its "opened"
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2019-06-11T23:57:49Z gwatt: chez is still lacking in GUI libraries. There are a few, but it's probably still the worst for GUIs of the serious schemes
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2019-06-12T00:07:00Z jcowan: Chez is deficient in libraries, period
2019-06-12T00:07:39Z jcowan: the consequences of being closed-source for so long
2019-06-12T00:09:21Z ober: but it does so fastly :p
2019-06-12T00:14:05Z gwatt: swish is interesting.
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2019-06-12T01:38:16Z mdhughes: The binary building and library linking in Chez is also just annoying; there's an experimental solution to make a binary but it's easier to just ship Chez & a tokenized assembly.
2019-06-12T01:38:55Z mdhughes: It's kind of frustrating that so many languages think binaries are the last, least important part of the language.
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2019-06-12T01:52:03Z gwatt: mdhughes: which experimental solution are you talking about?
2019-06-12T01:52:34Z mdhughes: gwatt: Yours, in fact.
2019-06-12T01:52:40Z gwatt: ah, I wondered!
2019-06-12T01:53:59Z mdhughes: https://github.com/gwatt/chez-exe for anyone who hasn't seen. Works great on base Chez, I haven't had good results with libraries.
2019-06-12T01:54:37Z gwatt: What kind of libraries are you using / trying to use?
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2019-06-12T01:58:44Z mdhughes: SDL frameworks on Mac
2019-06-12T02:00:04Z mdhughes: And I'd like to link Cocoa frameworks, but that's lower priority.
2019-06-12T02:02:06Z gwatt: That should be possible. compile-chez-program accepts any extra arguments and passes them to the C compiler, so linking should be easy
2019-06-12T02:05:41Z mdhughes: I'd have to look through my notebook to see what the error was, may try it again at some point, will file a ticket if I learn anything.
2019-06-12T02:09:34Z gwatt: That would be great.
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2019-06-12T04:40:44Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, do you know what kind of file sizes chez-exe produces ?
2019-06-12T04:42:45Z mdhughes: Don't have any built right now, but gwatt's right there ^
2019-06-12T04:43:38Z mdhughes: Chicken with no libraries can make a 24K binary. With my normal lib 200K. With every damn thing at once, 600-700K.
2019-06-12T04:46:40Z mdhughes: You *really* want to consider what you're pulling in, and break up libraries along functional lines. I make everything in modules, but source includes might use less.
2019-06-12T04:57:50Z Guest48876: mdhughes: what do you mean 'with no libraries/with my normal lib'
2019-06-12T05:02:41Z mdhughes: Wasn't really "no" libraries, but `(import scheme (chicken base) (chicken condition) (chicken format) (chicken pathname) (chicken process-context) (chicken string) miscmacros )`
2019-06-12T05:04:44Z mdhughes: My own standard lib is 830 lines currently, all my libs are another 600+ and pull in some heavy stuff.
2019-06-12T05:06:10Z mdhughes: There's no such thing as Scheme, there's just each dev's customized Scheme. That's why so many end up writing their own.
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2019-06-12T06:28:24Z amz3: +!
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2019-06-12T09:29:39Z TCZ: hi
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2019-06-12T11:12:09Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: chez-exe produces files a few megabytes in size.
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2019-06-12T12:35:50Z TCZ: All 43 tests passed
2019-06-12T12:37:22Z amz3: TCZ: what are you working on?
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2019-06-12T13:35:12Z TCZ: secret...
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2019-06-12T14:26:40Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, gwatt -- i see; thats quite nice sizes in KiB! thanks =)
2019-06-12T14:27:29Z oni-on-ion: mdhughes, and about 'no such thing as scheme' same with [common] lisp there, but for me CL comes with too much of a base and no real way to prune
2019-06-12T14:28:43Z gwatt: oni-on-ion: Chicken's compilation model is better suited for producing stand-alone binaries than chez. Chez has more of the CL approach.
2019-06-12T14:30:48Z oni-on-ion: will check to make sure miss chicken has got that them there sfri-88 up in that henhouse
2019-06-12T14:31:47Z oni-on-ion: yup!! plus with coops -- sold
2019-06-12T14:32:07Z Guest48876: oni-on-ion: afaik it's bulit in?
2019-06-12T14:33:08Z oni-on-ion: yep!
2019-06-12T14:33:29Z oni-on-ion: CL has the colon on the wrong side of their keywords and i simply can't get used to it =)
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2019-06-12T14:39:23Z gwatt: I think it's easier to distinguish with the leading colon
2019-06-12T14:41:02Z oni-on-ion: yeah? i've been trying for years =/
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2019-06-12T14:42:29Z Guest48876: not that it really matters, but in chicken it's customizable with a parameter (and the default is too, at build time)
2019-06-12T14:42:36Z Guest48876: alternatively, #:portable-keyword
2019-06-12T14:42:54Z oni-on-ion: Guest48876, same situation with guile as well
2019-06-12T14:43:13Z Guest48876: gwatt: i feel like syntax highlighting makes it purely a matter of preference
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2019-06-12T14:44:58Z oni-on-ion: my reasoning i think is possibly because i did a lot of objective-c and smalltalk back when, which usesColonsAfter: and also possibly after learning right-to-left languages which have the [often-used] colon on the left side
2019-06-12T14:45:45Z gwatt: I suppose, though I don't remember seeing highlighting distinguish :keywords from 'symbols.
2019-06-12T14:46:17Z gwatt: Can you re-order the named arguments in objective c?
2019-06-12T14:48:12Z oni-on-ion: hmm... in emacs, it highlights :keyword but not keyword:
2019-06-12T14:48:15Z oni-on-ion: gwatt, nope
2019-06-12T14:48:38Z oni-on-ion: because it is C i think. i dont see why they couldn't be though otherwise
2019-06-12T14:49:30Z oni-on-ion: but they are smalltalk style, so like [Window createIn: screen withTitle: "blah" ofSize: (...)]
2019-06-12T14:50:35Z gwatt: objective c is alright. I wish it had taken off in more than just apple.
2019-06-12T14:50:49Z oni-on-ion: there's gnustep =)
2019-06-12T14:51:03Z gwatt: Yeah, and windowmaker
2019-06-12T14:51:06Z oni-on-ion: or if you work on web, Cappuccino + Objective-J
2019-06-12T14:51:49Z oni-on-ion: i like how Objective-C = Smalltalk + C, i wonder what would be like "Subjective-C" as Scheme/Lisp + C
2019-06-12T14:54:53Z Guest48876: oni-on-ion: try this https://paste.dieggsy.com/2019-12-06T10-53-43 (the second one is for #!rest and such in chicken)
2019-06-12T14:55:21Z Guest48876: gwatt: 'symbol isn't highlighted specially in emacs, and keywords are, so that works out i guess
2019-06-12T14:56:15Z gwatt: Guest48876: funny, it's the exact opposite in vim
2019-06-12T14:57:10Z oni-on-ion: Guest48876, nice !!! thanks so much =) i was just looking at font-lock and was about to give up. did not know it was so simple
2019-06-12T14:57:52Z oni-on-ion: yeh 'symbol highlight i would certainly not appreciate. unless there was a way to flip colors when eval is flipped (with ` and , and ')
2019-06-12T14:59:16Z Guest48876: oni-on-ion: yeah, IIRC that's \\< (beginning of symbol) \\sw+ (symbol char 1 or more times) literal `:`,' then \\> end of symbol
2019-06-12T14:59:50Z Guest48876: lol, does riot have a plaintext option
2019-06-12T15:00:11Z oni-on-ion: hehe. the plain text works over here in raw irc
2019-06-12T15:01:08Z Guest48876: oh, that's good. i was using straight up ERC but i'm trying matrix since it's hit stable release
2019-06-12T15:02:36Z oni-on-ion: i was going to try ERC when using EXWM but just switched to wmaker so hexchat is alright
2019-06-12T15:03:17Z oni-on-ion: (next system change is debian->GUIX, i think. guile also has a pleasant api)
2019-06-12T15:03:38Z Guest48876: I just use bspwm, but I was using ERC in a pop-up/sticky floating frame that i could call from any workspace
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2019-06-12T15:06:34Z oni-on-ion: erc was out of control with its buffers; would be unable to tell where the recent activity is, and having multiple windows for a single buffer unknowingly. possibly too many channels for me though (10+ )
2019-06-12T15:07:49Z Guest48876: huh
2019-06-12T15:08:07Z Guest48876: I just used the one buffer window
2019-06-12T15:08:36Z oni-on-ion: i see. i am joined to several channels and erc interrupted my buffer list work flow =)
2019-06-12T15:09:53Z Guest48876: Oh, oh, i also hide ERC buffers in ivy and had a custom key to switch ERC buffers specifically
2019-06-12T15:10:15Z Guest48876: anyway, i'm not trying to convince you lol, i'm trying alternatives myself now :)
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2019-06-12T15:19:17Z oni-on-ion: no no its good, i still have to get back to irc in emacs so i'm glad you've said this. i'm still using only 'ido' and did not realise there are special ERC keys. will take a look for "list erc buffers with unread activity" abilities later
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2019-06-12T21:11:21Z TCZ: hmm so when i pass lambda to foldr i always have to somehow connect first and second argument, with foldl result of lambda automatically becomes acumulator
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2019-06-12T21:15:48Z TCZ: no
2019-06-12T21:15:54Z TCZ: ifc i was wrong
2019-06-12T21:15:56Z TCZ: nvm
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2019-06-12T21:27:34Z lmln: what is the differnce between fluid-let and parameterize?
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2019-06-12T21:32:22Z amz3: ahha! Good question!
2019-06-12T21:32:36Z amz3: lmln: are you using guile?
2019-06-12T21:32:40Z lmln: :) chez
2019-06-12T21:32:50Z amz3: euh.. where is the fluid-let thing?
2019-06-12T21:34:29Z amz3: I was looking for fluid in chez, but it seems like they are different from guile fluids
2019-06-12T21:34:41Z amz3: at least what I understood from guile fluid
2019-06-12T21:34:58Z amz3 reading the doc
2019-06-12T21:35:46Z amz3: from top of my head, I would say that parametrize, is not aware of call/cc escapade
2019-06-12T21:35:49Z amz3: but I might be wrong
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2019-06-12T21:37:58Z lmln: https://pastebin.com/pMLPHNS0
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2019-06-12T22:10:36Z amz3: lmln: fluid-let doesn't nothing with 'e' from line 18
2019-06-12T22:10:54Z amz3: otherwise, the code is look like the same
2019-06-12T22:18:44Z Riastradh: lmln: Generally what is called fluid-let does not play well with multiple threads, and what is called parametrize (or parameterize) does.
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2019-06-12T22:50:31Z amz3: I just discovered https://joss.readthedocs.io/.
2019-06-12T22:50:50Z amz3: I am pondering whether I should submit a paper about my work on nstore and functional store
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2019-06-13T09:54:12Z TCZ: schemers and racketeers
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2019-06-13T13:08:49Z jcowan: Lots of Scheme-related names have something to do with mendacity.
2019-06-13T13:10:32Z jcowan: the Liar compiler, Foment, Guile, Larceny
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2019-06-13T13:15:10Z jcowan: also Gambit and Gauche, though less so.  Stalin, of course.
2019-06-13T13:15:54Z ggole: "Scheme" is itself a play on "planner", so it is somewhat appropriate
2019-06-13T13:16:07Z jcowan: I looked a at a Scheme glossary by Brian Harvey, but he only obvious joke in it is the definition of _potsticker_; not that the definition is in any way wrong or funny, just ... what is it doing there?
2019-06-13T13:16:22Z jcowan: Well, more directly on Conniver.
2019-06-13T13:16:44Z ggole: Hmm. Did it go Planner -> Conniver -> Scheme(r)?
2019-06-13T13:16:52Z jcowan: Yes.
2019-06-13T13:17:12Z ggole: Right.
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2019-06-13T13:17:36Z jcowan: I find that outside the U.S. (and maybe Canada), "scheme" more often means "plan" than "plot".  UK authorities often publish their schemes with extensive documentation, whereas U.S. schemes only leak out afterwards, if at all.
2019-06-13T13:18:32Z ggole: That's a bit of a Commonwealthism, I think
2019-06-13T13:18:55Z jcowan: At MIT someone called Prolog the first correct implementation of Conniver.
2019-06-13T13:19:41Z jcowan: Yes, but Canada is kind of a special case in the Commonwealth.  U.S. "tire center", UK "tyre centre", Canadian "tire centre".
2019-06-13T13:20:21Z GoldRin: That should be illegal!
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2019-06-13T13:28:52Z gwatt: jcowan: don't forget Racket in the mendacious name list
2019-06-13T13:29:15Z jcowan: Racket was mentioned by TCZ, but yes.
2019-06-13T13:29:30Z gwatt: ah, I missed that
2019-06-13T13:29:37Z jcowan: couple of hours ago
2019-06-13T13:29:43Z jcowan: but I got disconnected in between
2019-06-13T13:31:02Z jcowan: Spelling (in English) is standardized by a feedback loop between publishers and lexicographers.  Publishers look in dictionaries to see how to spell a word; lexicographers look at the words that have been published.
2019-06-13T13:31:19Z jcowan: This happens pretty much separately in every country that can afford its own dictionaries.
2019-06-13T13:31:49Z jcowan: Thus the U.S. standardized on -ize, Oz on -ise, and the UK on -ise with a strong minority for -ize.
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2019-06-13T14:01:33Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/D0YuxwCd
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2019-06-13T14:07:45Z TCZ: The solid lines radiating out from the queen go through all those squares that are threatened by the queen.
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2019-06-13T14:22:09Z fwenk: Hi all, if i try (define 'x jef) i get no error, but i can make no more correct defines. (define  x 'jef) gives error until i restart. Why does this mistake corrupt my REPL?
2019-06-13T14:23:11Z CORDIC: fwenk: Which implementation?
2019-06-13T14:24:09Z fwenk: chez scheme 9.5 , but also in guile 2.0
2019-06-13T14:28:45Z notnotdan: yeah that's weird. in guile 2.2 you can say `(define 'x 3)` and it doesn't break the rest of the repl..
2019-06-13T14:31:42Z ecraven: fwenk: (define 'x jef) probably redefine quote
2019-06-13T14:31:51Z CORDIC: ""'x"" is Sintax Sugar for ""(quote x)"".  ""define"" does not make sense since ""jef"" is Undefined (Unbound).  It should create a new Binding for predefined Symbol ""quote"", a CAF in the example.
2019-06-13T14:32:37Z notnotdan: aaah
2019-06-13T14:32:55Z notnotdan: so what happens is that when you say (define x 'jef) it gets exapended to (define x (quote jef))
2019-06-13T14:33:08Z notnotdan: but you've defined (quote x) to be jef -- which is an undefined variable
2019-06-13T14:33:14Z notnotdan: so (quote jef) raises an error
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2019-06-13T14:33:24Z CORDIC: Yes, expanded by ""read"".  Not even a macro.
2019-06-13T14:33:31Z notnotdan: indeed
2019-06-13T14:39:17Z mdhughes: Interesting. Chicken errors on undefined jef in (define 'x jef), but (define 'x "jef") just works silently, assigns nothing I can see.
2019-06-13T14:39:47Z CORDIC: I guess that Global Bindings are Late-Bound to implement some kind of Mutual Recursion.
2019-06-13T14:40:12Z CORDIC: mdhughes: ""jef"" in the example is a Global Binding.
2019-06-13T14:40:48Z mdhughes: OK. In any case, defining a symbol equal to something is not useful, I would've expected an error.
2019-06-13T14:41:47Z CORDIC: mdhughes: I don't follow You?
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2019-06-13T14:42:55Z mdhughes: (define x something) binds variable x to something. (define 'x something) is just as nonsense as (define 1 something)
2019-06-13T14:43:26Z CORDIC: It seems that CHICKEN doeesn't have Late Binding of Global Symbols.  Try ""(define jef undefined)"" and then ""(set! jef (lambda ,...))".
2019-06-13T14:43:27Z mdhughes: > (define 1 "foo")
2019-06-13T14:43:27Z mdhughes: Exception: invalid syntax (define 1 "foo")
2019-06-13T14:44:03Z mdhughes: I'm not talking about the RHS, but the LHS. The name isn't normally quoted!
2019-06-13T14:45:28Z CORDIC: ""quote"" is a Symbol like any other.  Although it is Bound to a Macro.
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2019-06-13T14:46:06Z fwenk: that it passes silently makes your REPL bogus and you have no idea why, can it be corrected without leaving the REPL?
2019-06-13T14:49:54Z gwatt: fwenk: you can re-import (chezscheme)
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2019-06-13T14:50:18Z gwatt: and it will restore the default bindings.
2019-06-13T14:50:30Z gwatt: Just don't overwrite import :-)
2019-06-13T14:51:24Z aeth: I'm surprised Schemes don't do the Common Lisp solution and lock the core symbols, like quote and define
2019-06-13T14:51:45Z aeth: I guess there might be a case for redefining them locally, especially since they're Lisp-1s
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2019-06-13T14:56:17Z gwatt: aeth: using r[67]rs you can import identifiers with whatever name you want, and the reader syntax doesn't follow the rename.
2019-06-13T15:06:16Z fwenk: gwatt: (chezscheme) doesn't work here
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2019-06-13T15:07:21Z gwatt: fwenk: (import (chezscheme)) ?
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2019-06-13T15:10:15Z fwenk: gwatt: (import (scheme)) did work and now i can define again
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2019-06-13T17:55:29Z notnotdan: redefining quote doesn't completely break the REPL and doesn't make it bogus:
2019-06-13T17:55:32Z notnotdan: scheme@(guile-user)> (define 'x x)
2019-06-13T17:55:32Z notnotdan: scheme@(guile-user)> (define z 3)
2019-06-13T17:55:32Z notnotdan: scheme@(guile-user)> 'z
2019-06-13T17:55:32Z notnotdan: $1 = 3
2019-06-13T17:55:44Z notnotdan: although i agree that there isn't a good use case for that
2019-06-13T17:57:23Z ecraven: well, you could redefine quote to a *macro* that does what quote does and something else in addition
2019-06-13T17:57:34Z ecraven: de-duplicate quoted lists, for example
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2019-06-13T18:03:07Z notnotdan: i can imagine it leading to much confusion tho :)
2019-06-13T18:05:59Z Zipheir: IIRC there was a Haskeller on freenode who redefined + which mutated its arguments under the covers.  Good illustration of side-effects, actually.
2019-06-13T18:06:13Z gwatt: I could see quote & friends used as macro helpers, but that doesn't require redefining them
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2019-06-13T18:42:24Z amz3: wah
2019-06-13T18:42:45Z amz3: I just looked up my parser combinators, the code is so poor. I am wondering how I made it work.
2019-06-13T18:43:08Z amz3: also, I figured that using the same technic, I can not use (scheme generator) to create parser combinators
2019-06-13T18:43:34Z amz3: there is prolly another way to go. This parser combinator thing seems like bottom-less pit.
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2019-06-13T18:47:12Z lmln: can i have a look?
2019-06-13T18:48:53Z Zipheir: amz3: Bottomless pit?
2019-06-13T18:49:14Z amz3: I mean it is complex.
2019-06-13T18:49:29Z Zipheir: I guess... What model are you working from?
2019-06-13T18:49:37Z amz3: model?
2019-06-13T18:49:48Z amz3: what do you mean by model?
2019-06-13T18:50:24Z Zipheir: What implementation is it based on?
2019-06-13T18:50:33Z Zipheir: Parsec seems pretty common as a model
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2019-06-13T18:50:53Z Zipheir: Although it's more complex than the original (?) Hutton & Meijer version.
2019-06-13T18:51:20Z amz3: TIL
2019-06-13T18:51:20Z Zipheir: But if you're using generators, maybe this is something different altogether.
2019-06-13T18:51:28Z amz3: I know parsec by name but never studied to code
2019-06-13T18:51:53Z amz3: the problem with generators is that they are stateful, that is you can not rollback to a previous state (afaik)
2019-06-13T18:51:59Z Zipheir: Oh, then this is a great little paper: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/11f3/5810d2b2353ad5a1d58b4843dcc1b1e3f84a.pdf
2019-06-13T18:52:23Z amz3: thanks :)
2019-06-13T18:52:29Z Zipheir: Yeah, no.  Go monadic, it's much easier.
2019-06-13T18:53:16Z Zipheir: Here's the classic Hutton & Meijer intro to monadic combinators, as well: http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pearl.pdf
2019-06-13T18:53:35Z amz3: Zipheir: my implementation is based on a monads (apparantly)
2019-06-13T18:54:29Z amz3: eventually I will read them, even if it silly, I am "rushing" a project for wikimedia (i hope)
2019-06-13T18:54:38Z Zipheir: Oh, cool.
2019-06-13T18:54:49Z amz3: I mean, I want to demo my database can work for them
2019-06-13T18:55:12Z amz3: :)
2019-06-13T18:55:42Z amz3: I need to load 700G of wikidata inside the nstore, I only tried 10G so far.
2019-06-13T18:57:19Z lmln: http://matt.might.net/papers/might2011derivatives.pdf
2019-06-13T18:57:23Z lmln: this is also very interesting
2019-06-13T18:57:31Z Zipheir: Now that's a rabbit hole.
2019-06-13T18:58:23Z Zipheir: Might's derivative parser is really cool, but there doesn't seem to have been much work done in the last decade.
2019-06-13T18:59:54Z Zipheir: They still claim it's O(|G|), but AFAIK no one's bothered to prove that since the idea came up.
2019-06-13T19:14:21Z rain1: oh I think there was a recent paper about how the approach isn't good
2019-06-13T19:15:24Z rain1: hmm I can't find it, maybe there wasnt
2019-06-13T19:17:03Z Zipheir: It's certainly controversial.
2019-06-13T19:17:29Z Zipheir: "YACC Is Dead" was as especially inflamatory title for the original paper...
2019-06-13T19:18:52Z rain1: https://www.cs.ru.nl/bachelors-theses/2018/Timo_Maarse___4416295___Parsing_with_derivatives_in_Haskell.pdf ah ! i added haskell
2019-06-13T19:19:07Z rain1: > our implementation shows severe performance issues
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2019-06-13T19:25:59Z Zipheir: rain1: Interesting, ty.
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2019-06-13T19:38:55Z Zipheir: Darais's Haskell version is still on Hackage, but it's 7 years old and fairly complicated http://hackage.haskell.org/package/derp
2019-06-13T19:39:14Z Zipheir: So much for the "trivial to implement" claim.
2019-06-13T19:40:06Z Zipheir: We'll probably rediscover what a great thing LALR is 50 years down the road, anyway.
2019-06-13T19:40:15Z rain1: yeah
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2019-06-13T19:43:30Z Zipheir: "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin / That all with one consent praise new-born gawds / Though they are made and moulded of things past / And give to dust that is a little gilt / More laud than gilt o'er-dusted."
2019-06-13T19:43:46Z Zipheir: (Troilus & Cressida, act 3)
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2019-06-13T19:57:56Z TCZ: o.O
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2019-06-13T21:50:02Z TCZ: however, there are many different ways to represent these two images. Figure 175 sketches some. Fill in the rest.
2019-06-13T21:50:04Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/rvm7FmzK
2019-06-13T21:50:08Z TCZ: trolling?
2019-06-13T21:50:42Z TCZ: i wont fill the rest
2019-06-13T21:50:45Z wasamasa: english?
2019-06-13T21:50:59Z TCZ: why u hate me wasamasa
2019-06-13T21:51:17Z wasamasa: I have no idea what you're on
2019-06-13T21:51:41Z wasamasa: you pop in here randomly, write something barely resembling english without context and disappear again
2019-06-13T21:52:11Z wasamasa: it would help if you'd post longer sentences
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2019-06-13T21:52:27Z wasamasa: see
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2019-06-13T21:58:41Z amz3: don't try to convince them, they are wrong. I think they just don't feel... confortable.
2019-06-13T21:59:05Z amz3: also they started using space
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2019-06-13T22:10:37Z jcowan: Well, there's always the Bone-Hammer.
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2019-06-13T22:55:03Z TCZ: no
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2019-06-13T23:48:14Z TCZ: wasamasa = idiet
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2019-06-14T00:04:02Z Zipheir: Yes, ban-hammer, please.
2019-06-14T00:06:04Z Zipheir: If TCZ's random comments are going to start being insults, they shouldn't be here.
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2019-06-14T00:50:51Z amz3: they look in distress to me
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2019-06-14T02:06:06Z mdhughes: I muted them a while ago. Seemed kinda broken.
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2019-06-14T04:58:56Z Guest48876: somebody wiser than me weigh in on this: https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/c0fr4j/looking_for_embeddable_scheme/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
2019-06-14T04:58:56Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/vhzlh3nCcI
2019-06-14T05:00:52Z Guest48876: I feel they're much too prematurely concerned with speed
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2019-06-14T05:37:45Z Zipheir: Chibi++
2019-06-14T05:37:57Z Zipheir: No one mentions Guile, for some reason.
2019-06-14T05:38:01Z mdhughes: No, that's a reasonable concern: You have to be able to run your updates in <16ms, often much less. Or run it in another thread, and then there's a lot of message-passing and weird lag.
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2019-06-14T05:39:27Z mdhughes: I'm using Chicken for my games, and speed's fine there, but I have to make careful choices and micro-benchmarks to keep it playable.
2019-06-14T05:40:37Z wasamasa: fun, my experiences with that have been limited to elisp so far :D
2019-06-14T05:41:26Z wasamasa: CHICKEN can be embedded, but there's a lot less docs/examples for that (as opposed to wrapping around C)
2019-06-14T05:41:42Z wasamasa: Guest48876: I'd make sure to try guile
2019-06-14T05:42:06Z wasamasa: Guest48876: it's no speed demon either, but it's been around for a long time and there's a good number of programs using it successfully
2019-06-14T05:42:08Z mdhughes: Yeah, I'm not even trying to go that way. As long as Chicken can run SDL for display at a decent speed, I'll do everything in it.
2019-06-14T05:42:42Z wasamasa: Guest48876: if you want to go by what's been battle-tested, tinyscheme had great success :D
2019-06-14T05:42:50Z Zipheir: Right, embedding in some crappy C++ engine is silly.  Write in lisp!
2019-06-14T05:42:59Z Guest48876: wasamasa: i'm not the OP, i'm the guiy that commented
2019-06-14T05:43:06Z wasamasa: oh, ok
2019-06-14T05:43:08Z Guest48876: i loooove chicken lol
2019-06-14T05:43:15Z wasamasa: that just sounds wrong
2019-06-14T05:43:46Z Guest48876: wasamasa: chicken sandwich, chicken stew, chicken barbecue, chicken scheme...
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2019-06-14T05:43:57Z wasamasa: aright, I'll reply to OP
2019-06-14T05:44:03Z wasamasa: maybe they'll relax their requirements
2019-06-14T05:44:10Z mdhughes: Mmm. McChicken.
2019-06-14T05:44:11Z wasamasa: the scheme world isn't big enough to fulfill all of these
2019-06-14T05:44:29Z wasamasa: well, maybe picrin, but honestly, it's a joke
2019-06-14T05:45:02Z mdhughes: A fast, embeddable Scheme would do great things for Scheme, at least replacing Lua in a lot of cases.
2019-06-14T05:45:32Z Guest48876: mdhughes: do you embed chicken? or are you talking about writing the game loop in chicken?
2019-06-14T05:45:42Z Guest48876: cause i could see how performance would be critical with the latter
2019-06-14T05:46:14Z Guest48876: mdhughes: are chicken or chibi horribly slower than lua? i've no experience with chibi or lua
2019-06-14T05:46:39Z Zipheir: IIRC Lua is quite a bit faster than chibi.
2019-06-14T05:46:43Z mdhughes: In mine, I write the entire thing in Chicken, and performance is fine if I'm careful. But Chicken's not usable embedded, really.
2019-06-14T05:47:04Z mdhughes: But all-Scheme or just calling out to a script from a C/C++ gameloop, you need to finish fast enough to get 60fps, or 30fps at absolute worst case.
2019-06-14T05:47:57Z mdhughes: Lua's ridiculously fast. It's awful, it's the worst C-like language I've ever used and 1-based arrays make me stabby. But it's a couple lines to embed and won't threaten your framerate.
2019-06-14T05:48:34Z Guest48876: i see
2019-06-14T05:48:53Z Guest48876: i feel like it still depends on what you're actually doing with the scheme, right?
2019-06-14T05:48:54Z Guest48876: like
2019-06-14T05:49:00Z mdhughes: If Chibi or SIOD or such was that fast, it'd be a huge improvement.
2019-06-14T05:50:44Z Guest48876: yeah, if you need to run scheme code right in the same thread as the game loop, i'd see how you'd need speed, but you could be using it for something not performance critical? like, a non-fast  paced part of the game, or. any number of possibilities i can't think of because i've never fully written a game and am extremely inexperienced in this field lol
2019-06-14T05:51:36Z Guest48876: my friend was telling me about a minecraft mod that lets you have a 'computer' in the game that's basically just a lua repl. but you have to like. make a bootable drive in the game and install it and such
2019-06-14T05:52:20Z mdhughes: ComputerCraft/Turtles is really neat. It's also easy to bring a server to an unplayable state with them.
2019-06-14T05:52:38Z Zipheir: Guest48876: Have you checked out Minetest?  Aside from being FOSS, it's got a serious Lua modding interface.  One mod includes chips programmable in lua directly in-game.
2019-06-14T05:52:48Z wasamasa: it would be hilarious if op went with tinyscheme because it's the only one that has been made to work on windows :D
2019-06-14T05:53:10Z Guest48876: Zipheir: i have _played_ a heck of a lot of it, but i have not modded it at all
2019-06-14T05:53:43Z Zipheir: Guest48876: Ah, ok.
2019-06-14T05:53:50Z Guest48876: Zipheir: love just about everything about it, except maybe maturity/features but that's not with the game itself and it will come with time
2019-06-14T05:54:12Z Guest48876: i'll have to check out that mod though
2019-06-14T05:54:13Z Guest48876: that's so cool
2019-06-14T05:54:20Z Guest48876: like, it's silly. but cool
2019-06-14T05:55:30Z Zipheir: Guest48876: http://mesecons.net
2019-06-14T05:55:59Z Guest48876: sweet
2019-06-14T05:56:06Z Zipheir: Heh, it's even got a serial bus cable.
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2019-06-14T11:24:55Z jcowan: Lua is primarily fast because of LuaJIT.  If Chibi had a JIT, it would probably be really fast too, but Real Life has prevented foof from making it so.
2019-06-14T11:26:50Z jcowan: Tinyscheme was the main target that Chibi was pointed at from a performance viewpoint.
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2019-06-14T11:33:50Z mario-goulart: I get that JITs are very nice for benchmarks (small programs with repetitive operations), but do they scale well for big projects?
2019-06-14T11:35:32Z ecraven: they should scale well for anything except projects that do not run pieces of code many times
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2019-06-14T11:37:47Z mario-goulart: In those cases I suppose they can (in theory) even slow things down, as they would still have to keep track of the frequency things get executed.
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2019-06-14T12:10:34Z notnotdan: I've heard that LuaJIT can do some quite cool things, like fusing loops
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2019-06-14T12:57:39Z dTal: it seems to me that JITs should be theoretically capable of better performance in the asymptotic case than even static compilation, since they have access to more information (the runtime data)
2019-06-14T13:01:07Z dTal: seems like there's quite an overlap with the incremental compilation that SBCL and Chez do
2019-06-14T13:02:31Z dTal: if you can imagine shipping the program as source instead of a binary, and then when you want to run the program on some data, you "hard code" the data and *then* compile it
2019-06-14T13:14:00Z aeth: longer startup time, that's what happens
2019-06-14T13:14:25Z aeth: might still be worth it, depending on the program
2019-06-14T13:15:18Z dTal: hence why I said "in the asymptotic case"
2019-06-14T13:16:36Z dTal: I wonder if mario-goulart's point could be mitigated by having the "tracking" code running in a different thread than the "main" code, if that's even somehow possible
2019-06-14T13:16:41Z dTal: maybe with hardware support
2019-06-14T13:16:52Z aeth: Are there any JITs that remember the previous run? I'm not very familiar with them.
2019-06-14T13:17:00Z aeth: In theory, the long startup only has to happen once
2019-06-14T13:17:17Z dTal: that's called a static compiler :p
2019-06-14T13:17:55Z aeth: no, call it a hybrid compiler :p
2019-06-14T13:17:56Z uso_: theoretically you could modify your program youself at runtime depending on runtime data you've collect
2019-06-14T13:19:06Z uso_: aslso isn't what PGO should do ?
2019-06-14T13:20:16Z uso_: oops wrong chan (didn't I was on sceme )
2019-06-14T13:28:03Z jcowan: aeth: Smalltalk and Self JITs certainly remember the last run, if not necessarily past shutting down the world and starting over.
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2019-06-14T14:29:04Z Zipheir: Is there anything wrong with defining a SRFI-9 record type whose constructor is the same symbol as the type?
2019-06-14T14:29:15Z Zipheir: e.g. (define-record-type foo (foo x) ...)
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2019-06-14T14:31:57Z Zipheir: Ah, it seems to be implementation-dependent.  CHICKEN likes it but Guile does not want.
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2019-06-14T14:45:05Z Zipheir: And since R7 says "<name> is bound to a representation of the record type itself", it does seem to be a bad thing to do.
2019-06-14T14:45:19Z Zipheir: OK, sorry for the noise.
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2019-06-14T15:14:12Z gwatt:  I think any r[67]rs scheme won't let you shadow library / program definitions.
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2019-06-14T15:30:38Z Zipheir: One annoyance of this is that record types often have names like 'foo-rtd', which is annoying to pattern-match: you'd like something like (match ... (($ foo ...) ...)), but no.
2019-06-14T15:31:26Z Zipheir: But pattern-matching records is annoying anyway, and may not even be possible with libraries/modules renaming the types.
2019-06-14T15:36:11Z rain1: I like the match where you do `(foo ,x) to match against a list and (foo x y) to match against a record foo with 2 fields
2019-06-14T15:36:41Z rain1: it just seems to make sense that the way you match against something should be the way you construct it
2019-06-14T15:36:55Z rain1: the $ stuff is confusing
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2019-06-14T15:38:52Z Zipheir: Right, but the matcher has to associate 'foo' with your record type in some way...
2019-06-14T15:39:04Z Zipheir: Presumably it has to be the type name.
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2019-06-14T15:39:19Z rain1: ah im not sure i understand
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2019-06-14T15:41:01Z Zipheir: I mean, that pattern would probably have to match SRFI-9 records on the type name, which might get renamed by the library system, e.g. some.module#foo
2019-06-14T15:41:44Z Zipheir: Maybe this is an issue with SRFI-9/R7RS records, I don't know.
2019-06-14T15:44:57Z Zipheir: It's wonky, because in Scheme we usually use predicates and accessors to talk about types, but pattern matching is more intensional.
2019-06-14T15:45:38Z rain1: if the constructor gets renamed from foo to bar then (bar x y) should work to match it
2019-06-14T15:45:45Z rain1: is the worry just how to implement that in a pattern matcher?
2019-06-14T15:46:08Z Zipheir: Sure, (foo? x) => #t, but does (match x ((foo x) ...)))? Who know, it depends on how the matcher matches.
2019-06-14T15:46:14Z Zipheir: *knows
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2019-06-14T15:50:50Z Zipheir: The worry is that having to write (match val (($ some-ridiculous-prefix-that-will-never-change-i-promise#foo x) x)) is really lame and breakage-prone.
2019-06-14T15:51:14Z Zipheir: This happens e.g. in CHICKEN, where record type names in modules all get renamed.
2019-06-14T15:51:31Z Zipheir: No abstraction barriers for you, pattern-matching peon!
2019-06-14T15:53:31Z rain1: > it depends on how the matcher matches.
2019-06-14T15:53:45Z rain1: yeah we would want the matcher to work correctly according to hygiene and lexical scope
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2019-06-14T18:33:22Z jcowan: I like the convention <foo> for the RTD.
2019-06-14T18:33:53Z jcowan: also when it comes to constructors, I call them make-foo if the object is mutable, just foo if it is immutable.
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2019-06-14T18:41:12Z Zipheir: That's a good style.
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2019-06-15T09:16:56Z amz3: hello #scheme :)
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2019-06-15T09:42:51Z oni-on-ion: hi amz3
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2019-06-15T16:34:46Z fwenk: hi all, the return value of a procedure is a procedure, like add1 gives #<procedure add1> . How can I treat this is as a string?
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2019-06-15T16:49:08Z fwenk: I can for example (number->string 1) or (symbol->string 'jef) but is there something like (procedure->string add1) and how could it be made?
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2019-06-15T17:39:58Z gwatt: why do you need the stringified name of a procedure?
2019-06-15T17:53:18Z fwenk: gwatt: when i run a list of procedures over a variable, i want to generate a more readable output then just de evaluation of the procedure.
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2019-06-15T18:01:45Z aeth: fwenk: you might be able to work with getting the symbol associated with the procedure, if there's a procedure for that in your Scheme
2019-06-15T18:02:58Z aeth: of course, that will just give you the primary symbol since you can always just (define % +) (% 1 2) => 3
2019-06-15T18:03:18Z fwenk: aeth: when i quote it, it doesn't return #<procedure >  any longer
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2019-06-15T18:07:51Z amz3: scheme hashtag on linkedin is very bizar
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2019-06-15T18:15:36Z gwatt: fwenk: What do you want to show up?
2019-06-15T18:15:47Z gwatt: Let's say you have the application (add1 5)
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2019-06-15T18:19:01Z gwatt: It doesn't seem like you want to see "6" or "(add1 5)"
2019-06-15T18:23:16Z fwenk: gwatt: a text like add1 2 = 3 \n sub1 2 = 1 \n ....   for all the procedures from a list applyed to one or more arguments
2019-06-15T18:25:08Z gwatt: fwenk: what scheme are you using?
2019-06-15T18:25:42Z fwenk: gwatt: chez scheme 9.5
2019-06-15T18:26:06Z gwatt: There's an internal function name #%$procedure-name
2019-06-15T18:26:16Z gwatt: (#%$procedure-name add1) => "add1"
2019-06-15T18:26:49Z pjb: fwenk: (let ((temp "/tmp/tempout")) (call-with-output-file temp (lambda (out) (display add1 out))) (call-with-input-file temp (lambda (in) (read-line in))))
2019-06-15T18:27:00Z pjb: fwenk: --> "#[compound-procedure 2 add1]"
2019-06-15T18:27:13Z pjb: in r5rs, there's no string port.
2019-06-15T18:28:36Z pjb: fwenk: in r7rs, you can do: (let ((port (open-output-string))) (display add1 port) (get-output-string port))
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2019-06-15T18:29:54Z fwenk: gwatt: idd that works, thanks
2019-06-15T18:31:58Z fwenk: pjb: your solution works too.  Thanks again. With 2 possible solutions i can continue
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2019-06-15T18:35:11Z gwatt: I would avoid the temp file solution if at all possible. with r6rs (which chez-scheme is) you have string output ports, and in r7rs there are slightly different string output ports
2019-06-15T18:36:52Z gwatt: the temp file solution might only work once per file-name
2019-06-15T18:37:25Z fwenk: gwatt: how did you find such internal function?
2019-06-15T18:37:43Z gwatt: mostly perusing chez internals
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2019-06-15T18:38:21Z gwatt: and using apropos
2019-06-15T18:39:58Z gwatt: While apropos does not usually show results from the internal procedures, you can give it an optional second argument which is an environment to look in.
2019-06-15T18:40:18Z fwenk: gwatt: i tryed to read chez scheme source code, but i couldn't find any scheme :) apropos yes, but didn't find it there
2019-06-15T18:40:28Z gwatt: so I did (apropos 'procedure (#%$system-environment))
2019-06-15T18:41:55Z gwatt: the "#%" at the front is actually reader syntax that expands to ($primitive ...)
2019-06-15T18:42:38Z gwatt: and ($primitive id) tells chez to look in the system-environment for id
2019-06-15T18:46:00Z gwatt: Anyway, if you see #%$some-identifier and want to look at the implementation, disregard the "#%" part and search for '$some-identifier'
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2019-06-15T18:49:11Z fwenk: gwatt: i will need to dive deeper in scheme to find such information. Thanks for the very useful tips
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2019-06-15T19:04:14Z pjb: fwenk: I would avoid to use implementation specific operators as much as possible.  r7rs is complete enough.  Using implementation specific operators makes it impossible or very hard and costly to change the implementation.  This is a very bad position to be in.  There are a lot of reasons why you will want to change the implementation.  There may be problems with bugs in the implementation and vendor unwilling or unable to main
2019-06-15T19:04:14Z pjb: Or you may want to target a new platform with a different implementation (eg. mobile!)
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2019-06-15T19:10:58Z fwenk: pjb: That's correct. Your solution, looks like a smart scheme hack. I learned from both. Thanks!
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2019-06-15T19:14:33Z nisstyre: pjb: is `call-with-output-file` equivalent to (parameterize ([current-output-port (open-output-file tmp)]) (display blah)) in Racket?
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2019-06-15T19:14:54Z nisstyre: i.e. it sets and resets the stdout port to point at that file handle
2019-06-15T19:15:44Z nisstyre: I'm not sure if Racket's parameters are any kind of standard though
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2019-06-15T19:19:29Z gwatt: nisstyre: yeah, that's roughly equivalent
2019-06-15T19:20:27Z wasamasa: fwenk: a more generic way would be using something like the call-with-output-string helper function and displaying the object inside
2019-06-15T19:22:22Z wasamasa: (let ((p (open-output-string))) (display (lambda x x) p) (get-output-string p))
2019-06-15T19:22:37Z wasamasa: gives me "#<procedure #f>" in chibi-scheme
2019-06-15T19:30:54Z fwenk: wasamasa: you ask the name from an anonymous fuction?
2019-06-15T19:31:44Z wasamasa: nah, I just ask for its printed representation
2019-06-15T19:35:59Z fwenk: wasamasa: In Chez Sheme 9.5 it's "#<procedure>", the string version of an anonymous function, no #f here
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2019-06-15T19:36:29Z wasamasa: not surprising at all
2019-06-15T19:36:42Z wasamasa: what's more interesting is how it treats named functions
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2019-06-17T12:29:16Z amerigo: hi, anybody here knows if it's possible to emit assembly from chez?
2019-06-17T12:29:39Z amerigo: to be able to inspect it like in here https://godbolt.org/
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2019-06-17T13:27:39Z gwatt: amerigo: (#%$assembly-output #t)
2019-06-17T13:28:00Z amerigo: thanks!
2019-06-17T13:28:26Z gwatt: That will tell chez to emit its assembly on stdout. You can also pass it a textual file port and it will store the assembly output there.
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2019-06-17T17:06:22Z TCZ: t
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2019-06-17T17:43:57Z amz3: o/
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2019-06-17T18:29:40Z amz3: there is such a spirit in game dev
2019-06-17T18:30:03Z amz3: it seems like building your own engine is casual pratice
2019-06-17T18:30:46Z amz3: compared to other communities, I will note cite, where even the slight innovation trial is dubbed clueless.
2019-06-17T18:32:55Z amz3: it is similar how implementing schemes is such pervasive pratice.
2019-06-17T18:33:17Z wasamasa: nah, just bikeshedding
2019-06-17T18:33:36Z wasamasa: while some enthusiasts build their engines, others just use unity engine and get shit shipped :D
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2019-06-17T18:49:35Z amz3: true
2019-06-17T18:49:55Z amz3: my point is nobody is blaming another for building their own engine.
2019-06-17T18:50:28Z amz3: it is a meme in those communities, whereas some other are not used to "diy" kind of things
2019-06-17T18:51:10Z amz3: I hate plumbing
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2019-06-17T19:07:08Z dwdv: amz3: "nobody is blaming another for building their own engine" -- That's not true. Example: Some years ago, ThinMatrix, a young indie dev kickstarting and pitching his own MMO game idea plus engine plans, was flamed by a furious crowd for wasting time on a custom game engine.
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2019-06-17T19:09:52Z dwdv: And there is more where that came from. But maybe that's just the ugly mug of the gaming community.
2019-06-17T19:12:26Z ecraven: dwdv: but it seems he did succeed with Equilinox (with a custom engine)
2019-06-17T19:12:44Z dwdv: Was the game before that.
2019-06-17T19:13:04Z dwdv: Socuban or something.
2019-06-17T19:13:14Z dwdv: Socuwan.
2019-06-17T19:13:28Z ecraven: yea, but at least all his great video tutorials came from that
2019-06-17T19:13:49Z dwdv: Yes, his devlog were/are nice.
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2019-06-18T10:01:43Z amz3: re: gamedev, you can innovate if you don't experiment.
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2019-06-18T10:05:03Z amz3: re: gamedev, you can NOT innovate if you don't experiment.
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2019-06-18T11:14:28Z mdhughes: There's artists and such who only want to use an engine to put their material up; it won't ever have interesting gameplay, but it might be interesting to look at.
2019-06-18T11:15:06Z mdhughes: And there's programmers who don't have a hard time making a new engine; it's really not any harder than a REPL. And this does let you do new things with gameplay.
2019-06-18T11:16:01Z mdhughes: No other game dev, of either kind, really gives anyone grief about it, though.
2019-06-18T11:18:49Z mdhughes: What non-game devs say about it isn't really of any interest. Letting the Internet criticize you and taking that seriously is of course pointless.
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2019-06-18T12:48:03Z ecraven: jcowan: can I use ex/ed to edit a 12gb text file? ex says "tmp file too large"
2019-06-18T12:48:16Z ecraven: every other tool I've tried is failing on that size (a multi-database dump)
2019-06-18T12:49:05Z jcowan: ed is usually very robust, try it.  You might want to type the P command to give you a prompt; it's very helpful even for me.
2019-06-18T12:49:27Z ecraven: how do I show the first few lines in ed? 1,5p?
2019-06-18T12:49:31Z jcowan: yes
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2019-06-18T12:50:06Z jcowan: the last few lines are $-5,$p and will be helpful to see if the buffer has been silently chopped or something
2019-06-18T12:50:28Z jcowan plays ed tutor
2019-06-18T12:50:31Z ecraven: thanks ;)
2019-06-18T12:50:40Z ecraven: I've read that e-book (ed mastery), but don't remember most of it
2019-06-18T12:50:45Z ecraven: it's a great book though!
2019-06-18T12:50:51Z jcowan: Huh, you may be the only person!
2019-06-18T12:50:53Z ecraven: ed says No space left on device
2019-06-18T12:51:05Z ecraven: why does ed create a temp file :-/
2019-06-18T12:51:37Z jcowan: Because it can't be sure in those primordial days, when 1 MB was a *lot* of memory, of being able to fit the whole file in.
2019-06-18T12:51:43Z jcowan: s/can't/couldn't
2019-06-18T12:51:55Z jcowan: You really have less than 12 gb left?
2019-06-18T12:52:01Z ecraven: hehe, yea
2019-06-18T12:52:13Z ecraven: I wish emacs could handle this...
2019-06-18T12:52:30Z jcowan: "At Google, a job that runs in 1000 machines is a small job, and terabytes of free space [for a project] is a severe space crunch."
2019-06-18T12:52:42Z ecraven: hehe, good thing I'm not at google :P
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2019-06-18T12:53:23Z jcowan: What transformations do you want to perform?
2019-06-18T12:56:21Z ecraven: cut out the part about the one database i
2019-06-18T12:56:25Z ecraven: I'm interested in
2019-06-18T12:56:38Z ecraven: it's a pg_dumpall, which contains a dump of 5 databases, in order
2019-06-18T12:58:46Z jcowan: ex -R may be your friend, then.  IIRC it does not create a temp file
2019-06-18T12:59:20Z ecraven: thanks
2019-06-18T12:59:48Z jcowan: then just isolate the part you want (you'll get warnings about "changing a read-only file" which you can ignore) and write it out with an explicit "#,#w" command (where # is a line number)
2019-06-18T13:00:39Z ecraven: yea, I tried less, but not sure how to get it to show me line numbers
2019-06-18T13:00:57Z ecraven: ah, =
2019-06-18T13:01:23Z dwdv: What about gawk? Does it choke as well?
2019-06-18T13:01:51Z ecraven: haven't tried that yet
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2019-06-18T13:16:40Z gwatt: ecraven: using pg_restore you can specify just the schema and tables you want to load
2019-06-18T13:17:12Z ecraven: gwatt: the problem is, I want to rename the database
2019-06-18T13:17:38Z gwatt: ALTER DATABASE name RENAME TO new_name
2019-06-18T13:18:00Z ecraven: I already have a database of that name, I can't restore into that :-/
2019-06-18T13:22:16Z gwatt: make a new local cluster?
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2019-06-18T13:50:26Z mdhughes: ecraven: Use a hex editor to change the bytes in place, fill in excess with spaces.
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2019-06-18T15:00:12Z amz3: I made a demo of my functional database https://asciinema.org/a/y4bXRnOI79D2IsrUEw2wyNKJl
2019-06-18T15:00:20Z amz3: spoiler: it doesn't support merge yet.
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2019-06-18T16:35:38Z jcowan: neither gawk nor mawk is likely to choke, nor is sed if you don't do anything complex
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2019-06-18T19:26:06Z ecraven: hehe, so ed seems to put a copy of my file in /tmp/ (which is smaller than 12G). no idea how to change that, the documentation doesn't say
2019-06-18T19:27:48Z gnomon: ecraven, GNU ed?
2019-06-18T19:27:52Z ecraven: aye
2019-06-18T19:28:23Z ecraven: a brief glance at the source suggests it uses tmpfile, and I can't find a way to change the directory that uses
2019-06-18T19:29:02Z amz3: vi doesn't work?
2019-06-18T19:29:25Z ecraven: same problem, Tmp file too large
2019-06-18T19:29:54Z ecraven: hm.. actually, it seems to still work, even though it shows that warning
2019-06-18T19:30:14Z ecraven: I wish I knew of a way to make emacs deal properly with files of that size ;]
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2019-06-18T19:37:18Z gwatt: ecraven: you already know the answer; it's "get more free space" ;-)
2019-06-18T19:38:26Z ecraven: I have plenty of free space, just not in tmp (which is a ramdisk)
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2019-06-18T19:46:23Z amz3: mount --bind something on top /tmp ?
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2019-06-18T19:48:53Z amz3: mkdir /tmp2
2019-06-18T19:49:00Z amz3: mount --bin /tmp2 /tmp
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2019-06-18T20:05:35Z wasamasa: oh wow: https://old.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/c1guyg/how_to_embed_chibischeme_into_c_app/
2019-06-18T20:05:53Z wasamasa: I have the feeling OP won't be terribly happy with scheme
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2019-06-18T20:22:06Z gwatt: that's the second thread about embedding scheme from that person too
2019-06-18T20:27:28Z wasamasa: exactly
2019-06-18T20:28:06Z wasamasa: at this rate OP will invent their own scripting language :D
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2019-06-18T20:40:56Z gwatt: that's the true schemer way
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2019-06-18T20:50:36Z amz3: ecraven: did you try mount --bind
2019-06-18T20:50:56Z amz3: gwatt: +1
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2019-06-19T02:18:33Z mdhughes: ecraven: Of course, you could also just write a tool to do it in Scheme or C. I dunno how to do random-access file control in Scheme yet, tho!
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2019-06-19T08:20:11Z liangchao: hi
2019-06-19T08:23:55Z ecraven: mdhughes: I am quite sure that none of the existing Schemes would be even remotely as fast as grep or sed for that size of data
2019-06-19T08:24:27Z ecraven: obviously I just need much more RAM so I can put the entire file into RAM (and have enough left over for other tasks) :D
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2019-06-19T09:02:40Z mdhughes: But you don't even need that much RAM if you're just filtering or modifying in place. That's why I suggested a hex editor or writing a tool: No temp files needed, no RAM needed.
2019-06-19T09:03:04Z mdhughes: Hex Fiend on Mac will open 100GB+ files quite happily.
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2019-06-19T09:04:29Z mdhughes: It doesn't matter if a script takes 10 or 100x as long, if it just does the one job overnight.
2019-06-19T09:04:46Z ecraven: that I don't agree with :P
2019-06-19T09:05:02Z mdhughes: Why? Are you going to run this job over and over again?
2019-06-19T09:05:27Z mdhughes: Automation is about you not doing the job, not about micro-optimizing it.
2019-06-19T09:05:47Z mdhughes: https://xkcd.com/1205/
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2019-06-19T11:56:14Z amz3: are integers equal in the sens of eq?
2019-06-19T11:58:58Z amz3: it seems like it depends of the integer
2019-06-19T11:59:19Z amz3: nvm I will use proper symbols
2019-06-19T12:12:41Z amz3: TCZ: hello! What are you up to?
2019-06-19T12:13:12Z TCZ: im not quieted?
2019-06-19T12:13:19Z TCZ: i afraid to write here...
2019-06-19T12:13:37Z TCZ: wasamasa is watching
2019-06-19T12:13:59Z amz3: x)
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2019-06-19T13:08:21Z jcowan: amz3: No, they aren't.  If eq? happens to work on two equal numbers, it's an implementaton artifact.
2019-06-19T13:08:29Z jcowan: The rules for using eq? are these:
2019-06-19T13:08:42Z jcowan: 1) Never use eq? to compare numbers, characters, or procedures.
2019-06-19T13:09:40Z jcowan: 2) Never use eq? at all unless you have profiled your code with eqv? and with eq? and you can prove that the speed difference is critical.
2019-06-19T13:09:41Z jcowan: Otherwise, use eqv? or a type-specific identity like symbol=? or boolean=?, or if you don't care about the difference between exact and inexact numbers, use =.
2019-06-19T13:09:44Z rain1: hey why doesn't eq? error on numbers?
2019-06-19T13:10:02Z jcowan: Because it's a quick pointer comparison.  If the pointers are the same, cool; if not, boo.
2019-06-19T13:10:28Z ecraven: rain1: in most schemes, fixnums compare just fine with eq?
2019-06-19T13:11:13Z jcowan: Yes, but not all, and offhand you probably don't know the range of a fixnum unless you have consulted https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/FixnumInfo.md
2019-06-19T13:11:17Z rain1: hmmm
2019-06-19T13:11:33Z jcowan buffs his nails
2019-06-19T13:11:57Z rain1: but if scheme is to be a high level language then maybe it should have some safety measures, rather than being like C with the undefined behavior stuff
2019-06-19T13:12:35Z jcowan: Most implementations do, but some don't.  One of the reasons we have so many Schemes is that they make different tradeoffs.  (There are other considerations, like tribal loyalty.)
2019-06-19T13:12:44Z CORDIC: rain1: I agree.
2019-06-19T13:13:23Z jcowan: In any case, eq? does not have undefined *behavior*, it's just that in some cases it returns an implementation-dependent boolean.  Same for eqv?.
2019-06-19T13:13:46Z CORDIC: Why doesn't "eq?" return "unknown" or "maybe" then?
2019-06-19T13:14:27Z jcowan: As I say, eq? is all about speed, and inserting extra checks slows it down.  Think of it as unsafe-eqv? if you like, though it is not *completely* unsafe.
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2019-06-19T13:15:23Z CORDIC: "maybe" would be just as quick.
2019-06-19T13:15:55Z jcowan: You'd have to make type tests to determine when to return it, unless it *always* returned 'maybe, which would indeed be faster (but useless).
2019-06-19T13:16:22Z amz3: tx
2019-06-19T13:17:16Z jcowan: Also, one of the reasons for UB in Scheme is to permit extensions.  It is UB to pass a character where a string is expected, but a particular implementation could be written to cast characters to 1-char strings in that case.
2019-06-19T13:17:29Z rain1: yeah but i mean lets be realistic about the efficiency question
2019-06-19T13:17:44Z rain1: real efficiency will come from compiler optimizations
2019-06-19T13:18:07Z rain1: optimizations like approximate type inference, which would be able to remove the dynamic type checks
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2019-06-19T13:27:19Z amz3: I always forget about the semantic of eq? eqv? I should prolly put it on a post-it.
2019-06-19T13:31:42Z rain1: i always remember eq? < eqv? < equal?
2019-06-19T13:32:11Z rain1: and that eq? is pointer equality, equal? is structural equality
2019-06-19T13:32:26Z rain1: but i dont really remember eqv? I guess it's intended for numbers? but we have =
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2019-06-19T13:35:13Z gwatt: Yeah, eqv? seems superfluous given the presence of equal? and =
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2019-06-19T15:33:47Z mdhughes: I always use eq? for symbols, = for math, equal? for everything else, even tho there is probably a big speedup by using more precise comparisons.
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2019-06-19T16:09:51Z ecraven: hm.. it would be non-conforming to implement chars as one-character-strings, right?
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2019-06-19T16:20:58Z pjb: yes.
2019-06-19T16:21:25Z pjb: ecraven: but you can always define your own implementation specific operators.
2019-06-19T16:21:43Z pjb: (my-string-ref "abc" 1) -> "b"
2019-06-19T16:22:07Z pjb: given  unicode, eventually they may catch up.
2019-06-19T16:25:08Z jcowan: ecraven: Yes, it would be.  But nothing says standard procedures can't be extended in the way I described above, or given additional arguments that indicate what kind of result you want.  All that is open to Scheme implementers, and given the library system, to users too.
2019-06-19T16:26:37Z jcowan: eqv? is Leibniz identity, that's the way to remember it.  For example, it can distinguish between 4 and 4.0, since they don't behave the same, but a bignum here and a bignum there, even if calculated separately, will be found equal by eqv? but probably not by eq?.
2019-06-19T16:26:58Z jcowan: That is, the identity of indiscernables.  Or as Spock put it, a difference that *makes* no difference *is* no difference.
2019-06-19T16:27:24Z jcowan: It corresponds to == in Java/C#, `is` in Python, and similar things in other languages.
2019-06-19T16:28:07Z ski . o O ( "A difference that makes a difference" -- Gregory Bateson )
2019-06-19T16:28:37Z Zipheir: I just use eqv? and reserve equal? for when I want recursive comparison.
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2019-06-19T16:30:55Z rain1: wow i like that ski
2019-06-19T16:31:36Z ski: that's how he defined information
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2019-06-19T17:03:17Z gwatt: jcowan: nitpick, `is` in python is more like `eq?` than `eqv?` It can return false for larger numbers
2019-06-19T17:03:34Z jcowan: Ah, thanks, didn't know that.
2019-06-19T17:05:16Z gwatt: Though the reader can detect duplicate numeric literals and collapse them to the same memory location
2019-06-19T17:05:48Z gwatt: so "1000 is 1000" => True, but "a = 1000 <Enter> b = 1000 <Enter> a is b" => False
2019-06-19T17:06:53Z jcowan: Okay, so Python does not have an actual identity operator either.  Bah.
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2019-06-19T17:30:00Z Zipheir: Ugh.
2019-06-19T17:32:00Z Zipheir: It's called `is' and it still gets identity wrong.
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2019-06-19T17:37:11Z Zipheir: Heh, given Python's natural language affinity/pretensions, I wonder if anyone's proposed unary, existential `is'.  'I is' => true
2019-06-19T17:44:52Z ski . o O ( <http://users.monash.edu/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html> )
2019-06-19T17:46:40Z gwatt: I always love reading through that
2019-06-19T17:46:50Z Zipheir: Wow.
2019-06-19T17:48:24Z mdhughes: No, `is` does exactly what it's supposed to: Compare object pointers. Integers (IIRC -128 to 128?) are interned, larger integers are not.
2019-06-19T17:49:24Z Zipheir: So it's eq?, IOW.
2019-06-19T17:49:33Z mdhughes: Correct.
2019-06-19T17:49:37Z Zipheir: `is' was a poor naming choice, then.
2019-06-19T17:50:32Z mdhughes: >>> for i in range(-128, 1024):
2019-06-19T17:50:32Z mdhughes: ...     a = i
2019-06-19T17:50:32Z mdhughes: ...     b = i+0
2019-06-19T17:50:34Z mdhughes: ...     if a is b: print(i)
2019-06-19T17:50:36Z mdhughes: Shows it's -5 to 256
2019-06-19T17:51:17Z gwatt: that's an odd range ...
2019-06-19T17:51:19Z mdhughes: How is "is" not identity? `eq?` is the bizarre one.
2019-06-19T17:51:50Z Zipheir: Agreed, eq? is bizarre naming too.
2019-06-19T17:53:03Z Zipheir: mdhughes: But as your example shows, `is' doesn't exactly give an intuitive implementation of identity.
2019-06-19T17:57:27Z Zipheir: Pointer identity is actually the implementation leaking up through the language and soaking the programmer's notions.
2019-06-19T17:57:48Z mdhughes: https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/long.html
2019-06-19T17:59:57Z mdhughes: In real Python you would normally compare anything with ==, the only time you use `is` is `x is not None` or rarely if implementing some cache mechanisms.
2019-06-19T18:01:38Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-06-19T18:01:46Z mdhughes: In Scheme multiple levels of equality are mostly a result of not having duck typing for most operators.
2019-06-19T18:02:36Z Zipheir: No ducks here, thank you.
2019-06-19T18:04:37Z Zipheir: Although we have some typeclasses now, c.f. SRFI-128 etc.
2019-06-19T18:12:33Z Zipheir: (At least, the typeclass approach to ad-hoc polymorphism is as close as I think you can get to duck typing in un-brain-damaged space.)
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2019-06-19T18:18:56Z ski . o O ( "Interface-passing style" by Fare (Faré Rideau) in 2010-02-17 at <https://fare.livejournal.com/155094.html> )
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2019-06-19T18:38:04Z Zipheir: Sounds a lot like comparators: "...systematically use composable first-class "interface" objects to drive the choice of algorithms"
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2019-06-19T19:40:05Z jcowan: Original EQ was limited strictly to atoms, and it checked identity.
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2019-06-19T19:40:52Z jcowan: Comparators are indeed a surfaced and dynamic-typing version of the type classes Eq, Ord, and Hashable.
2019-06-19T19:41:19Z jcowan: I decided to use a record for convenience but I could have gone with a function returning four values, my original plan.
2019-06-19T19:42:17Z jcowan: IPS was developed by Fare quite independently.  I have a proposal which will introduce another type-class-like object that handles Monad, ApplicativeFunctor (called Idiom), and Functor.
2019-06-19T19:42:44Z jcowan: But I don't think there's anything very useful to generalize in Scheme among these different object types.  A comparator has little in common with a monad-type object.
2019-06-19T19:43:14Z jcowan: I might have one for Monoid and friends, but I haven't thought about it too much.
2019-06-19T19:43:46Z jcowan: In other news, my mostly-from-scratch implementation of SRFI 160 is proceeding; it's the only thing that's holding back finalization of a SRFI which was already accepted into Tangerine
2019-06-19T19:43:59Z jcowan: A bunch of tests are still failing.
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2019-06-19T19:46:13Z jcowan: Complain, complain!  I can't build *any* pure R6RS implementation on Cygwin as of now.  Very annoying.
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2019-06-19T19:51:34Z gwatt: how important is it that the scheme build on cygwin vs running on windows without that layer
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2019-06-19T19:55:16Z jcowan: Important to me, at least, since Cygwin is my preferred development environment.
2019-06-19T19:55:28Z jcowan: (I can also develop on Linux, of course.)
2019-06-19T19:56:30Z jcowan: Cygwin's minterm is a cut-down xterm, and doesn't provide proper Windows Terminal semantics, so you can run pure-Windows programs, but they get stymied if they try to read from (unredirected) stdin.
2019-06-19T19:57:24Z jcowan: Cygwin programs will run fine from a Powershell or cmd.exe window, but cut/paste for example is very awkward.  I look forward to the new Windows Terminal program MS is releasing.
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2019-06-19T20:01:34Z jcowan: I've concluded that it will be too much effort to build it myself.
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2019-06-20T09:40:42Z wasamasa: same OP apparently doesn't even like scheme at all: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/bz7guy/scheme_runtime_different_syntax/
2019-06-20T09:40:59Z wasamasa: writing a C++ program, embedding a scheme, writing it in ML-style syntax :D
2019-06-20T09:44:01Z uso_: wasamasa: I've use s7 to do that in my game engine
2019-06-20T09:44:42Z uso_: https://github.com/cosmo-ray/yirl did that recently and my scheme code is very ugly
2019-06-20T09:44:59Z uso_: https://github.com/cosmo-ray/yirl/blob/master/modules/pong/start.scm
2019-06-20T09:45:04Z wasamasa: that's nice, but I'm sure you didn't invent a new syntax on top of it for a completely different programming language :D
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2019-06-20T09:46:46Z uso_: nope, I've learn scheme at the same time, I just wanted a functional programing languages support, and s7 as been only 1 file was a good solution for my
2019-06-20T09:47:08Z uso_: *me
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2019-06-20T11:48:33Z amz3: I proposed to support tuple of n items in sparql 1.2, I have some mixed feedback https://github.com/w3c/sparql-12/issues/98
2019-06-20T11:48:46Z amz3: this is related to srfi 168
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2019-06-20T12:06:32Z gwatt: wasamasa: I suspect that person will be going around to various proglang forums asking about embeddable languages forever.
2019-06-20T12:06:59Z wasamasa: well, they have a point about it being not too hard to compile something to scheme
2019-06-20T12:07:33Z wasamasa: you still have to write that compiler though and figure out how to deal with wildly different semantics
2019-06-20T12:07:43Z wasamasa: like the whole types and pattern matching stuff
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2019-06-20T13:30:49Z ChoHag: Is order of execution within an expression ever guaranteed? eg. the components of an (or ...)?
2019-06-20T13:32:48Z wasamasa: no
2019-06-20T13:33:06Z wasamasa: also, withing an expression misses the point
2019-06-20T13:33:25Z wasamasa: there's a great deal of difference between whether it's a function, macro or special form
2019-06-20T13:33:41Z wasamasa: it doesn't make sense to have a special form or if it doesn't have short-circuiting behavior
2019-06-20T13:33:50Z wasamasa: so for this one it's defined what's evaluated in which order
2019-06-20T13:33:56Z wasamasa: for functions it's undefined
2019-06-20T13:34:07Z wasamasa: for macros, well, they're macros, the question doesn't make sense
2019-06-20T13:36:12Z weinholt: ChoHag, the order for (or ...), (and ...) and (begin ...) is left-to-right, probably for a few more, but in general it's just some order
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2019-06-20T13:41:55Z jcowan: ChoHag: What's guaranteed is that when calling a function the arguments (as well as the function reference) are evaluated before the function is called.  This means that `begin` (which macro-expands to a bunch of lambdas) is guaranteed to evaluate its arguments in order.
2019-06-20T13:42:17Z jcowan: yes, same story with `and` and `or`.
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2019-06-20T13:45:05Z dTal: does 'begin' "really" macro-expand to a bunch of lambdas in implementations, or just theoretically? seems wasteful...
2019-06-20T13:46:16Z dTal: (in that lambdas affect the lexical environment and scoping, while 'begin' needn't touch it)
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2019-06-20T14:10:46Z jcowan: It really does, but then the lambdas are compiled away by any good Scheme compiler.  Indeed, the essence of good Scheme compiling is to reduce everything to lambdas, then figure out which lambdas need actual closure object (because they can be called from unknown places) and which can be  compiled away with no actual closure objects.
2019-06-20T14:11:23Z jcowan: So it really doesn't matter  if you use begin or your own nest of lambdas, the efficiency should be exactly the same.
2019-06-20T14:11:41Z jcowan: Same story with `let` and friends, btw
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2019-06-20T14:26:57Z TCZ: hi :x
2019-06-20T14:28:09Z amz3: o/
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2019-06-20T15:14:59Z Zipheir: "bunch of lambdas": I was under the impression that (begin body ...) could always be compiled to ((lambda () body ...)), i.e. exactly one extra lambda?
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2019-06-20T15:16:29Z jcowan: Zipheir: Yes, n arguments to `begin` makes for n+1 lambdas.
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2019-06-20T15:21:10Z Zipheir: Is that due to the fact that, in the ‘first’ version of ‘begin’, the contained elements can be (internal) definitions?
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2019-06-20T15:22:54Z Zipheir: (Which seems to be an R7RS-ism.)
2019-06-20T15:24:55Z Zipheir: Or is this just the usual way to compile multi-expression bodies?
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2019-06-20T15:38:10Z ski: your second snippet uses an "implicit `begin'"
2019-06-20T15:39:05Z ski: (and i think the idea was to do away with `begin' altogether, translating it away. regardless of whether it was implicit or explicit)
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2019-06-20T15:40:39Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-06-20T15:42:37Z Zipheir: OK, I get it.  Let this be a lesson to finish one's coffee before jumping into compilation problems.
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2019-06-20T18:34:59Z mdhughes: This is very accurate, and contains good ideas: http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2015/01/if-scheme-were-like-scheme.html
2019-06-20T18:35:23Z mdhughes: :) but also :|
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2019-06-20T18:46:41Z Zipheir: I can only imagine the Haskell equivalent of this article.
2019-06-20T18:50:21Z ecraven: hehe, that's a very nice article!
2019-06-20T18:50:24Z Zipheir: I think every language provides easy access to some core structures that "everyone uses" and having some kind of general approach for integrating less essential ideas.
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2019-06-20T18:51:09Z Zipheir: Monomorphism makes plenty of sense for mysterious-object-set! from some mysterious-operations library, less sense in the core language.
2019-06-20T18:51:39Z Zipheir: (e.g. numbers, no one wants exact-integer-multiply as the author mentions)
2019-06-20T18:51:53Z ecraven: Zipheir: I'm not sure I agree... I might use mysterious-object more often than numbers in my actual code
2019-06-20T18:52:22Z Zipheir: ecraven: Of course, but there is a scarcity of short names.
2019-06-20T18:52:23Z ecraven: actually I definitely disagree ;) that polymorphism seems entirely *necessary* for numbers just shows that it might be useful overall
2019-06-20T18:53:09Z Zipheir: Well, we have comparators.  This seems a step in the right direction.
2019-06-20T18:56:19Z Zipheir: On the issue of ad-hoc polymorphism, I'd definitely like to see more of the SRFI-128 'bundle'/'interface' approach in Scheme.
2019-06-20T18:57:37Z Zipheir: This is a good response to that post (surprisingly, on HN): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8871316
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2019-06-20T19:10:03Z Zipheir looks into a foldable/traversable idiom for Scheme.
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2019-06-20T20:04:51Z mdhughes: I very much enjoyed the Julia idiom of methods being functions with the same name, but different declared types; one with undeclared type is a fallback. Much nicer than the (cond (list? x)… idiom
2019-06-20T20:06:42Z mdhughes: Be kind of a radical change, and requires a type system and method registry exposed somewhere, even if your code is 90% dynamic.
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2019-06-20T20:32:16Z jcowan: I intend for r7rs-large to have two different mechanisms, generic functions based on predicates, and parametric polymorphism based on passing in interfaces
2019-06-20T20:34:06Z amz3: interfaces like records?
2019-06-20T20:34:14Z amz3: I mean will interfaces be records?
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2019-06-20T20:56:24Z Zipheir: amz3: Implementation detail!
2019-06-20T20:56:48Z amz3: :)
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2019-06-21T19:03:04Z amz3: it has come the time of the releeeeeeeeeeease...
2019-06-21T19:03:08Z amz3: developer release :)
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2019-06-21T19:10:16Z jcowan: amz3: Comparators are records, but that is indeed a detail.  There is no way in R7RS to ask if an object is an instance of some record type (as distinct from a specific record type), so you can't tell objects implemented as records from objects implemented otherwise.
2019-06-21T19:14:08Z jcowan: The (rnrs records inspection) library, which is of dubious merit for anything but debugging, does have a `record?` predicate, as well as a `record-rtd` procedure that returns the type of a record instance and throws an error if something is not a record instance or is an instance of a so-called opaque record type.
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2019-06-21T21:27:45Z amz3: I have setup a repository to test srfi 167 and srfi 168
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2019-06-21T21:27:47Z amz3: https://github.com/scheme-live/srfi-167-and-168-tutorial#setup
2019-06-21T21:27:59Z amz3: with readline support ;-
2019-06-21T21:28:01Z amz3: with readline support ;-)
2019-06-21T21:28:19Z amz3: you only need to download the 1Gish repo
2019-06-21T21:28:36Z amz3: you don't need sudo to make it work
2019-06-21T21:28:53Z amz3: it was reported by someone off-list that it works
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2019-06-21T21:41:28Z z0d: Nils Holm has a ton of Lisp books on Lulu. are they good?
2019-06-21T21:43:22Z jcowan: Idiosyncratic, but yes.
2019-06-21T21:43:32Z jcowan: (all Lisp books are idiosyncratic, if it comes to that)
2019-06-21T21:43:47Z jcowan: it's just that Guy Steele's idiosyncracies have become the mainstream
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2019-06-21T23:09:11Z ober: so is scheme a play on his last name?
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2019-06-21T23:23:46Z ski: "Scheme was originally called \"Schemer\", in the tradition of other Lisp-derived languages such as Planner or Conniver. The current name resulted from the authors' use of the ITS operating system, which limited filenames to two components of at most six characters each. Currently, \"Schemer\" is commonly used to refer to a Scheme programmer."
2019-06-21T23:26:24Z Zipheir: ski: Thanks!
2019-06-21T23:26:53Z ski: ?
2019-06-21T23:27:10Z Zipheir: ski: For the history. :)
2019-06-21T23:27:28Z ski: oh. i was wondering if you were referring to something earlier
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2019-06-22T12:28:20Z amz3: jcowan: my question was not about comparator but interfaces, but I assume your answer apply to interfaces too.
2019-06-22T12:31:28Z jcowan: A comparator is an instance of an interface in this sense (a run-time reification of a Haskell type class).
2019-06-22T12:31:56Z jcowan: The next interface will probably be contexts, which cover monads, idioms, and functors.
2019-06-22T12:33:07Z jcowan: (just as comparators cover Eq, Ord, and Hash)
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2019-06-22T13:00:19Z amz3: TIL
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2019-06-22T15:50:57Z jcowan: well, the time has come for me to bite the bullet, and advice is solicited
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2019-06-22T15:59:30Z ecraven: ;)
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2019-06-22T16:07:18Z amz3: advice about what?
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2019-06-22T18:04:49Z jcowan: amz3, ecraven: sorry, family emergency, all sorted now
2019-06-22T18:05:09Z jcowan: the R7RS-small committee decided to be different from every other programming language/library and represent current time as an inexact number.  While I have no quarrel with the notion that measurement is inherently inexact, the choice of January 1, 1970 TAI plus 64-bit floats means that highly precise time is confined to the past, and not a very interesting part of it.
2019-06-22T18:05:29Z jcowan: By January 12 we have lost nanosecond precision, and by 2002 we have lost even microsecond precision.
2019-06-22T18:06:25Z jcowan: Posix timespecs have a huge range: on a 64-bit machine you can store with nanosecond precision forward and back for a billion years.
2019-06-22T18:06:25Z amz3: that is the jiffy thing?
2019-06-22T18:06:33Z jcowan: No, jiffies are different.
2019-06-22T18:06:38Z jcowan: This is wall-clock UTC time.
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2019-06-22T18:07:16Z amz3: ok
2019-06-22T18:07:47Z jcowan: So in my higher-level date library, should it be based on instants and TAI (with leap seconds), or timespecs and Posix time (no leap seconds)?
2019-06-22T18:09:14Z jcowan: I had hoped to base it on both, but that just makes a mess of the API.
2019-06-22T18:11:45Z jcowan: Do I *have* to deal with the fact that of the 525600 minutes in 2017, one of them contained 61 seconds, when computing elapsed time?
2019-06-22T18:13:27Z jcowan: The jiffy clock ticks on and cares nothing about leap seconds, so if you use that you get true elapsed time, but you can't compare its results between one process and another reliably, never mind over longer periods.
2019-06-22T18:14:53Z jcowan: SRFI 19 is in denial about all this: it doesn't hesitate to say that if your program has been running (or your machine up, or whatever) for two hours, that the "monotonic time of day" is now 1970-01-01T02:00:00Z, which is insanity.
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2019-06-22T18:19:32Z jcowan: So that's the issue.  Am I right with all other programs and wrong with the world's timing infrastructure, or vice versa?
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2019-06-22T18:35:20Z mdhughes: So, OS X/Cocoa represents dates as NSTimeInterval, which is a C double. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/foundation/nsdate?language=objc
2019-06-22T18:35:38Z mdhughes: But then you work with NSCalendar to represent all actual dates, which includes leap second computations.
2019-06-22T18:38:49Z jcowan: Well, at least their zero point is 2001, well after the introduction of UTC.  I have to interpolate leap seconds between 1958 (when TAI began) and 1972 (when UTC and its leap seconds began).
2019-06-22T18:44:00Z mdhughes: Presumably there's a pretty short table of those, but as soon as you convert to a Human date, it needs to have those leap seconds or some moderately bad things happen to caches and network requests at the least.
2019-06-22T18:45:16Z mdhughes: Current TAI − UTC = 37
2019-06-22T18:47:39Z mdhughes: But I don't do a lot with dates, I made an iOS app to only show UTC, because that's what I found useful: https://mdhughes.tech/unixtime/
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2019-06-22T18:54:22Z Zipheir: Looking at SRFIs, what's the approach to strings going forward--cursors or no cursors?
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2019-06-22T19:00:26Z Zipheir: (and texts, I suppose)
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2019-06-22T19:02:17Z Zipheir: Well, SRFI-13 seems to be the rule of the road in CHICKEN's world at least.  *grumble*
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2019-06-22T19:23:59Z mdhughes: (import utf8 utf8-srfi-13 utf8-srfi-14)
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2019-06-22T19:29:46Z Zipheir: mdhughes: Yeah, that's the best thing going for CHICKEN atm.
2019-06-22T19:32:30Z wasamasa: personally, I don't see why I should use/implement something else than regular string procedures
2019-06-22T19:33:41Z mdhughes: What, non-utf8? Useless with emoji, or anyone who uses a non-Latin alphabet, which is only 2/3 of the planet.
2019-06-22T19:34:52Z Zipheir: Well, emoji at least are useless.  But unicode is a great thing.
2019-06-22T19:35:21Z mdhughes: Emoji are 🤘
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2019-06-22T19:37:24Z mdhughes: (looks like at least Limewire passes utf8 thru, no idea what that'll do on primitive clients)
2019-06-22T19:37:35Z mdhughes: s/limewire/limechat/
2019-06-22T19:39:15Z Zipheir: UTF-8 has won, anyway, it's just Microsoft hanging around to torment us with the terror that is UTF-16.
2019-06-22T19:39:32Z Zipheir: That is, UTF-"16".
2019-06-22T19:39:59Z wasamasa: no, I mean the other SRFI1
2019-06-22T19:40:01Z wasamasa: *SRFIs
2019-06-22T19:40:23Z mdhughes: Or random 8-bit codepages.
2019-06-22T19:41:19Z mdhughes: The '90s were a very annoying time on a Mac or Linux, with half the Web in cp1252, the other half in Latin-1, 1% in MacWestern.
2019-06-22T19:42:35Z Zipheir: At least it didn't have fscking video ads. :)
2019-06-22T19:44:40Z wasamasa: instead you had blinking gifs
2019-06-22T19:45:10Z mdhughes: I miss 160x120 qt video. And blinking marquees and dancing hamsters.
2019-06-22T19:46:23Z mdhughes: … OK, actually I'm very distracted by moving objects on a page, and tend to shoot at them with the mouse.
2019-06-22T19:47:19Z mdhughes: But are there other string APIs than rope? It was supposedly slow.
2019-06-22T19:48:46Z amz3: finger trees?
2019-06-22T19:57:48Z wasamasa: cursors?
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2019-06-22T20:39:19Z TCZ: ;)
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2019-06-22T20:43:25Z ecraven: the one Scheme that has ropes beats all others in the strings benchmark
2019-06-22T20:43:39Z ecraven: might just be due to the way that one benchmark is written, but at least it's something
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2019-06-22T23:47:53Z jcowan: Zipheir: Right now we have no R7RS-large string package, but whatever we wind up with will be closely related to SRFI 13 one way or another.
2019-06-22T23:48:31Z jcowan: I'm trying to pull together at least some of the alternatives so that something can get a majority of the votes cast.  So far nothing has.
2019-06-22T23:48:47Z jcowan: mdhughes: Yes, the table is short.
2019-06-22T23:53:26Z jcowan: I interpolate between 1958 and 1972 so that there are exactly 37 entries.
2019-06-23T00:00:25Z jcowan: My calculations earlier were wrong, though; we won't lose microsecond precision until some time in the year 2255 or so.
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2019-06-23T00:01:48Z jcowan: and nanosecond precision was lost on April 12, 1970
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2019-06-23T07:59:55Z kori: is anyone here very familiar with chibi's FFI? I know I shouldn't ask to ask, but this problem is kinda complicated and i don't know how to describe it
2019-06-23T08:01:40Z wasamasa: does it per chance have to do with game engines
2019-06-23T08:02:37Z kori: wasamasa: no, X
2019-06-23T08:02:40Z kori: and xcb
2019-06-23T08:02:55Z kori: but it's mostly about basic stuff
2019-06-23T08:03:09Z kori: describing opaque structs, passing them around in scheme...
2019-06-23T08:04:08Z wasamasa: I should try out its FFI anyway
2019-06-23T08:04:19Z wasamasa: unfortunately the website gives me an error 502 :<
2019-06-23T08:05:26Z kori: that's odd
2019-06-23T08:06:00Z wasamasa: it's as if it's a scheme application served with nginx :D
2019-06-23T08:06:30Z kori: lol
2019-06-23T08:07:16Z kori: wasamasa: why'd you ask about game engines btw haha
2019-06-23T08:07:28Z wasamasa: there's someone on r/scheme who asked similar questions
2019-06-23T08:07:35Z kori: oh no
2019-06-23T08:08:09Z kori: https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/c1guyg/how_to_embed_chibischeme_into_c_app/
2019-06-23T08:08:12Z kori: this person?
2019-06-23T08:08:39Z wasamasa: uhuh
2019-06-23T08:10:06Z kori: i actually used this post
2019-06-23T08:10:08Z kori: uh
2019-06-23T08:10:10Z kori: read*
2019-06-23T08:10:17Z kori: and im just using plain C not C++
2019-06-23T08:10:29Z kori: I don't know much about C... or ffi
2019-06-23T08:10:32Z kori: which
2019-06-23T08:10:33Z kori: you know
2019-06-23T08:10:36Z kori: doesn't help my case
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2019-06-23T09:50:40Z amz3: kori: I think you asked the question on chibi mailing list, correct?
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2019-06-23T09:53:09Z kori: amz3: incorrect
2019-06-23T09:53:14Z kori: i wanted to ask here first
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2019-06-23T09:53:25Z kori: (simply because i'm not currently logged onto google but i am here lol)
2019-06-23T09:53:41Z amz3: ah ok
2019-06-23T09:54:04Z amz3: kori: so you want to interop C and Scheme? is that correct?
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2019-06-23T09:54:44Z amz3: kori: disclaimer: I don't use chibi, but we will try to nail the particular issue you have
2019-06-23T09:54:48Z kori: amz3: yeah
2019-06-23T09:54:57Z kori: namely, calling C from scheme
2019-06-23T09:55:09Z amz3: kori: the main program is written in scheme?
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2019-06-23T09:55:32Z kori: amz3: i'm trying to wrap a library that's written in C so I can call its functions from scheme
2019-06-23T09:55:39Z kori: here, i'll push the current source code im working with
2019-06-23T09:56:52Z kori: amz3: https://github.com/kori/Xlambda
2019-06-23T09:57:03Z kori: ill post the stack trace im getting
2019-06-23T09:57:06Z kori: oh i forgot to upload test.scm
2019-06-23T09:57:28Z amz3: so you want to create bindings, that is what bindings are.
2019-06-23T09:57:33Z kori: yeah
2019-06-23T09:58:06Z amz3: what is the error you encounter?
2019-06-23T09:59:26Z kori: http://ix.io/1MAH
2019-06-23T09:59:44Z kori: here's the stack trace of the segfault I get when I try to run test.scm
2019-06-23T10:01:28Z amz3: good
2019-06-23T10:02:58Z amz3: it just segfault, there is not chibi error?
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2019-06-23T10:03:30Z kori: oh by the way I'm on OpenBSD amd64 6.4 and chibi-scheme 0.8
2019-06-23T10:03:34Z kori: amz3: yeah, just a segfault
2019-06-23T10:03:36Z kori: no error
2019-06-23T10:04:02Z amz3: kori: add a check about *conn* to see whether it is NULL or not
2019-06-23T10:04:06Z kori: wm/xcb-connectable? works correctly
2019-06-23T10:04:08Z amz3: or print it to stdout
2019-06-23T10:04:19Z amz3: oops it already printed
2019-06-23T10:04:35Z amz3: so what the (display *conn*) says
2019-06-23T10:04:46Z kori: it says something along the lines of
2019-06-23T10:04:53Z kori: #(xcb_connection_t <number>)
2019-06-23T10:05:06Z kori: eientei $ chibi-scheme test.scm
2019-06-23T10:05:08Z kori: #<xcb_connection_t 8102317075168>
2019-06-23T10:05:10Z kori: Segmentation fault (core dumped)
2019-06-23T10:05:16Z kori: whoops <> not ()
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2019-06-23T10:06:21Z amz3: ?
2019-06-23T10:06:47Z kori: i said #(xcb_connection_t <number>) instead of #<xcb_connection_t <number>>
2019-06-23T10:06:47Z amz3: like I said, I am not a chibi expert, better ask on the mailing list (or try github issues)
2019-06-23T10:07:06Z kori: yeah ill try the mailing list
2019-06-23T10:07:28Z kori: amz3: my best guess is that im screwing up a type somewhere
2019-06-23T10:07:39Z kori: like
2019-06-23T10:07:45Z kori: that im not using structs appropriatelyt
2019-06-23T10:07:50Z kori: appopriately*
2019-06-23T10:07:57Z kori: appropriately**
2019-06-23T10:07:59Z kori: wow
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2019-06-23T10:12:23Z amz3: cool!
2019-06-23T10:13:03Z wasamasa: you'll get a long way by compiling all relevant components with debug info
2019-06-23T10:13:18Z kori: wasamasa: i hope i managed to do that here
2019-06-23T10:13:27Z wasamasa: well, it's only showing xcb stuff
2019-06-23T10:13:31Z wasamasa: nothing about chibi
2019-06-23T10:13:49Z kori: hm
2019-06-23T10:13:57Z kori: i might try messing with the raw C code first then
2019-06-23T10:14:15Z kori: that is a good idea before asking the mailing list
2019-06-23T10:15:13Z kori: wait
2019-06-23T10:15:15Z kori: no
2019-06-23T10:15:17Z kori: that doesnt make sense
2019-06-23T10:15:23Z kori: #3  0x000001eb6cc73809 in sexp_apply (ctx=0x1eb62967060, proc=Variable "proc" is not available) at vm.c:1266
2019-06-23T10:15:28Z kori: wasamasa: this is part of chibi
2019-06-23T10:15:56Z kori: #5  0x000001e8bab6b71e in main (argc=Variable "argc" is not available.) at main.c:653
2019-06-23T10:15:59Z kori: so is this...
2019-06-23T10:16:05Z wasamasa: hm, ok
2019-06-23T10:16:58Z kori: this is really getting my noggin joggin
2019-06-23T10:19:24Z wasamasa: minimal error handling you got there: https://github.com/kori/Xlambda/blob/master/libwm.c#L132
2019-06-23T10:19:56Z wasamasa: any of these could return NULL and give you a segfault
2019-06-23T10:20:12Z wasamasa: you should be able to figure out by using gdb, breakpoints and printing
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2019-06-23T10:34:26Z kori: wasamasa: that's a good point
2019-06-23T10:34:35Z kori: well, this is forked code
2019-06-23T10:34:56Z kori: so yeah, i'll add more error handling
2019-06-23T10:51:06Z kori: wasamasa: nevermind that, do you think the info I included would be sufficient?
2019-06-23T10:51:14Z kori: if i sent an email now
2019-06-23T10:51:22Z kori: (I'll check out the NULL Returns though)
2019-06-23T10:52:35Z kori: wait
2019-06-23T10:52:39Z kori: even if it did return null
2019-06-23T10:52:52Z kori: scheme would just return #f, not segfault
2019-06-23T10:52:59Z kori: that's what wm_is_connected does
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2019-06-23T11:03:46Z wasamasa: well, I'd rather give them too much than too little info
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2019-06-23T12:09:55Z TCZ: are ocaml and erlang disgusting
2019-06-23T12:10:01Z TCZ: and elixir
2019-06-23T12:10:23Z TCZ: elixir not erlang i mean
2019-06-23T12:10:33Z TCZ: sorry..
2019-06-23T12:10:44Z TCZ: "sup?"
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2019-06-23T12:11:18Z wasamasa: is this discussion pointless
2019-06-23T12:11:40Z TCZ: probably yes
2019-06-23T12:11:46Z TCZ: dont quiet me ok?
2019-06-23T12:12:10Z TCZ: i finished htdp few days ago
2019-06-23T12:12:19Z wasamasa: not my job ;)
2019-06-23T12:12:39Z TCZ: but you are influential user....
2019-06-23T12:13:08Z wasamasa: no more important than anyone else
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2019-06-23T12:22:19Z amz3: TCZ: good for you for finishing htdp. Sadly I can not focus to read the book online, I prolly need to buy dead-tree copy.
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2019-06-23T12:31:48Z TCZ: |-|4\/E 4 |\||(E |)4`/
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2019-06-23T12:32:13Z kori: that was odd
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2019-06-23T13:09:36Z Riastradh: jcowan: The basic, fundamental _timing_ should be based on TAI clocks, and calendar issues -- including the Gregorian calendar and leap seconds and displaying things in UTC-based civil time zones -- should be separate.
2019-06-23T13:10:44Z Riastradh: (Obviously there are different ways to measure it, but the standard one should be striving to measure is durations of SI seconds as averaged by the TAI system.)
2019-06-23T13:12:17Z jcowan: Riastradh: There is a great deal of stuff, however, which depends on dealing with Posix time indices, notably the meaning of timestamps on files.  I can't just disregard that.
2019-06-23T13:12:59Z jcowan: But yes, I do separate TAI-based instants from Gregorian calendar handling.
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2019-06-23T13:16:18Z Riastradh: If you need that, you can have posix->tai and tai->posix conversion routines.
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2019-06-23T13:58:38Z jcowan: And I do.  But after all Posix time indices don't just exist out of mindless tradition: they greatly simplify calendrical computations compared to TAI timestamps.  I'm wondering if the need to accommodate leap seconds outweighs the concern for simplicity in the implementation, per Hoare's dictum.
2019-06-23T13:58:45Z jcowan: s/need/concern
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2019-06-23T13:58:58Z Riastradh: `greatly simplify'
2019-06-23T13:59:31Z jcowan: My guesstimate is that it's a factor of 2-3
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2019-06-23T13:59:46Z Riastradh: I infer you've never done much serious work with calendars.
2019-06-23T14:01:49Z Riastradh: All you need (leapsecs- t) -> [t' leapsec?] and (leapsecs+ t' leapsec?) -> t.
2019-06-23T14:02:28Z Riastradh: Unless by `calendar' you're excluding, e.g., lunar calendars used by billions of people around the world?
2019-06-23T14:03:48Z jcowan: I am.
2019-06-23T14:04:00Z jcowan: Sufficient to each day, as the pre-SRFI says, is the evil thereof.
2019-06-23T14:04:51Z Riastradh: So, this is the difference between a ten-line function to break a POSIX clock down into the Gregorian calendar, and a twelve-line function to break a TAI clock down into the Gregorian calendar?
2019-06-23T14:05:54Z Riastradh: Specifically, in UTC, because you can't possibly be concerned about time zones if leap seconds are too complicated!
2019-06-23T14:07:47Z jcowan: I am in fact planning to deal with time zones, at least of the nautical variety, but I intend to support IANA timezones as well.
2019-06-23T14:08:21Z Riastradh: So you're going to have a mechanism for updates to the timezone database, including all the associated political shenanigans?
2019-06-23T14:08:47Z jcowan: I note that a mere 2% of the world's population live where the Gregorian calendar (or trivial variants with different epochs, like Japan's) is not official.
2019-06-23T14:09:44Z jcowan: Since essentially all machines have compiled tzdata files installed on them, I'm going to leverage those, which implies leveraging IANA's work (Paul Eggert's work) in keeping them up to date.
2019-06-23T14:10:23Z jcowan: If sysadmins don't update their tzdata files, they will have more complaints from non-Schemers than from Schemers.
2019-06-23T14:10:39Z wasamasa: darn timezones
2019-06-23T14:10:59Z jcowan: Better than than a single world government that tries to regulate everything.
2019-06-23T14:11:14Z wasamasa: the only project where I had to do anything close to serious date handling ran into a bug when determining days between two timestamps if DST happened in-between
2019-06-23T14:11:29Z wasamasa: then a day went missing
2019-06-23T14:11:47Z wasamasa: all because elisp doesn't have a way to represent dates and datetimes are used instead
2019-06-23T14:12:51Z Riastradh: jcowan: You can also easily provide separate (current-posix-time) and (current-tai).
2019-06-23T14:13:07Z jcowan: I do that too
2019-06-23T14:13:19Z Riastradh: One of them is useful for dealing with files and other things with misprinted timestamps.  The other is useful for an actual clock.
2019-06-23T14:14:33Z jcowan: unfortunately I'm stuck with the fact that the formats returned are different: an inexact number where 0 = 8 seconds before the Posix epoch for TAI, a timespec (<second, nanosecond> where 0 = the Posix epoch) for Posix.
2019-06-23T14:15:07Z jcowan: And nanosecond precision of such inexact numbers hasn't been available since about 1970-04-12.
2019-06-23T14:15:30Z Riastradh: ...!?
2019-06-23T14:15:33Z jcowan: So the two forms are not as interchangeable in practice as they would be mathematically.
2019-06-23T14:15:56Z jcowan: It's a camelious hump, yes.
2019-06-23T14:15:57Z Riastradh: Is this the product of some misbegotten committee voting system that maximizes the inconsistency of the whole by politicizing individual decisions?
2019-06-23T14:16:13Z jcowan: Of course, like all of Scheme since R2RS.
2019-06-23T14:18:05Z jcowan: Basically, the R7RS-small TAI format gives nanoprecise time only for a short and uninteresting historical period when nanoaccurate clocks barely existed, certainly not in ordinary people's hands.  But there it is.
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2019-06-23T14:18:31Z jcowan: The only alternative to committees is a BDFL, and, well, nolo episcopari.
2019-06-23T14:18:34Z Riastradh: I think as the chair of the committee you should declare a mistrial.
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2019-06-23T14:19:58Z jcowan sighs
2019-06-23T14:20:14Z Riastradh: Maybe issue an edict forming a subcommittee on time issues that is run by a BDFL.
2019-06-23T14:20:30Z jcowan: I still can't change R7RS-small, no matter what.
2019-06-23T14:20:46Z Riastradh: Well you could add something new with a slightly different name and declare the stupid thing deprecated.
2019-06-23T14:20:51Z jcowan: I make a lot of decisions for the large language, but only by consent.
2019-06-23T14:20:58Z jcowan: True that.
2019-06-23T14:25:22Z Riastradh: (define (current-tai) (let ((t (current-tai-timespec))) (+ (timespec.seconds t) (/ (timespec.nanoseconds t) 1000000000.))))  ;stupid committee compliance, solved
2019-06-23T14:26:08Z jcowan: It would be good to align the epochs, too.
2019-06-23T14:26:13Z Riastradh: (assumes the epoch is the same)
2019-06-23T14:26:27Z Riastradh: I like 1972-01-01T00:00:00Z but that is not a hill I will die on.
2019-06-23T14:26:51Z jcowan: That's what I'll use.  The current-second (inexact) epoch is 8 seconds earlier.
2019-06-23T14:27:02Z Riastradh: ...why is it eight seconds earlier
2019-06-23T14:27:05Z Riastradh: do I want to know
2019-06-23T14:27:08Z jcowan: (that being almost exactly the tai-ut1 of that era.
2019-06-23T14:27:16Z Riastradh: I thought that was ten?
2019-06-23T14:27:44Z jcowan: Oh, sorry, misread 1972 as 1970.  It was exactly 10 per definition in 1972, yes.
2019-06-23T14:27:50Z Riastradh: Got it, OK.
2019-06-23T14:27:54Z wasamasa: I didn't realize r7rs-small mandated TAI
2019-06-23T14:28:59Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/1MBF
2019-06-23T14:29:27Z wasamasa: this is from the r7rs egg
2019-06-23T14:30:24Z jcowan: we hedge by saying neither imprecision nor inaccuracy is standards-breaking, and that some systems can do no better than a fixed utc-tai.  I'll share my table-based conversion code when I get some, of course.
2019-06-23T14:31:44Z jcowan: One thing I do want to banish is the notion that something like "2019-06-23T14:31:00 TAI" makes any sense at all.
2019-06-23T14:32:09Z jcowan: SRFI 19 allows you to treat TAI and even monotonic time (whose epoch is undefined) in this silly fashion.
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2019-06-23T14:43:53Z Riastradh: jcowan: yesplz
2019-06-23T14:44:00Z Riastradh: TAI is a time scale, not a calendar system.
2019-06-23T14:45:23Z jcowan: Just so.  Still less is monotonic time a calendar system.  SRFI 19 gives you permission to encode the fact that your program has been running for two hours as 1970-01-01:02:00:00 monotonic.  (If that's what the monotonic clock does on your system; Posix only requires that it not change its epoch after your program starts up, not that that also be the epoch.)
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2019-06-23T14:51:01Z Riastradh: ...yes, that's silly.
2019-06-23T14:51:54Z Riastradh: What possessed them to apply that human-meaningful epoch to a necessarily indeterminate boot time?
2019-06-23T14:52:57Z Riastradh: (I have not looked at SRFI 19 in probably a decade, don't remember any details of how it works.)
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2019-06-23T15:11:34Z jcowan: A foolish attempt at uniformity.  Each timestamp is marked with a scale: duration, montonic, in-process, tai, in-thread, and utc.  For any of these you can do calendrical computations, even though none of them make any sense except utc.  There are also separate Date and Time objects, nautical-only timezones, and such charming conversions as monotonic-time->julian-day.
2019-06-23T15:11:53Z jcowan: s/and/or
2019-06-23T15:12:04Z wasamasa: so, a matrix?
2019-06-23T15:13:08Z jcowan: In effect.
2019-06-23T15:13:25Z wasamasa: the problem with these is that it takes an expert to figure out the combinations you'll want to use
2019-06-23T15:13:44Z wasamasa: likewise, people will be able to use the nonsensical ones
2019-06-23T15:13:58Z wasamasa: but yeah, I get the appeal
2019-06-23T15:14:22Z wasamasa: last time I've seen one was with the noise protocol: https://latacora.micro.blog/factoring-the-noise/
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2019-06-23T15:19:17Z jcowan: The Scheme numeric tower can be parameterized on just four parameters: the closure of exact numbers under rational operations (except /), exact non-integer values, inexact rationals, and non-real numbers.  That makes 16 possible towers, of which 9 are actually in use by someone.
2019-06-23T15:29:41Z jcowan: (that's apart from the question of exact, inexact, and mixed-exactness complex numbers, which add more variability).
2019-06-23T15:31:16Z jcowan: THe simplest thing is to assume you only have inexact complex numbers, which are the most useful in practice.
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2019-06-23T17:47:57Z jcowan: I realize now that the hard part, and almost the only hard part, of the library is the logic that adds dates to durations and subtracts dates to get a duration.
2019-06-23T17:48:46Z Riastradh: Talking about durations in units of SI seconds, or durations in units of s/m/h/d/m/y?
2019-06-23T17:49:03Z jcowan: The latter, of which the former is a special case
2019-06-23T17:49:15Z jcowan: It's fundamentally just multiple-base arithmetic like L/s/d, but unlike that case, the base of a bigit depends (except for seconds, which are always 10^9 nonoseconds) on all higher-order bigits.
2019-06-23T17:49:57Z jcowan: The number of seconds in a minute, of minutes in an hour, of hours in a day, of days in a month, and (in principle) of months in a year, local time, all vary.
2019-06-23T17:50:29Z jcowan: So far no one has shifted local time by a month or more.
2019-06-23T17:50:49Z jcowan: Probably the assumption that P1Y = P12M is safe
2019-06-23T17:51:35Z jcowan: One thing I am definitely going to do is to flush ISO weeks and their associated year indices from the library.  Someone else can deal with that.
2019-06-23T17:52:06Z jcowan: Annoyingly, the number of civil hours in a civil day isn't even integral, it's general rational.
2019-06-23T17:52:36Z Riastradh: ...for some values of `rational'...
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2019-06-23T17:57:16Z jcowan: Well, the timezone system cannot handle any subsecond transitions, perhaps fortunately.
2019-06-23T17:57:34Z jcowan: I mean of course that it is a not-necessarily-integral rational number.
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2019-06-23T18:11:36Z jcowan: For example (mild local chauvinism, kaff kaff) there was a fold in America/New York time at 1883-11-18T12:03:58, which was succeeded by 1883-11-18T12:00:00.
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2019-06-23T19:08:46Z TCZ: eh
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2019-06-23T19:10:08Z wasamasa: do we have a parser srfi yet?
2019-06-23T19:12:06Z jcowan: No.  It would need to be a framework of some sort.
2019-06-23T19:12:15Z jcowan prefers recursive descent to parser combinators anyhow
2019-06-23T19:12:21Z jcowan: Hmm.
2019-06-23T19:12:38Z wasamasa: I'm trying out comparse currently, it's almost smooth sailing
2019-06-23T19:12:44Z Riastradh: Typically recursive descent is what parser combinators do.
2019-06-23T19:13:00Z Riastradh: Recursive descent is pretty awful for any serious parsing beyond S-expressions!
2019-06-23T19:13:16Z Riastradh: Someone^TM should make a good LALR system for Scheme if they haven't already.
2019-06-23T19:13:18Z wasamasa: the docs suggest it's a combination of parser combinators and PEG
2019-06-23T19:16:54Z Riastradh: Mmm, PEG, eliminate any possibility of feedback about ambiguity or cost up front, and then spend exponential time/memory when you actually deploy it in the field!
2019-06-23T19:19:28Z jcowan: PEG grammars don't *have* ambiguity; the way you define the grammar ensures there is none by construction.  If you define your grammar badly, that's not the fault of a PEG parser.
2019-06-23T19:19:29Z rain1: the algorithm for preprocessing LALR parsers seems very difficult though
2019-06-23T19:19:53Z Riastradh: jcowan: Yes, that's the _problem_: PEG grammars give you no feedback when you write your grammar badly.
2019-06-23T19:19:53Z wasamasa: PEG feels like regex++ to me
2019-06-23T19:20:03Z wasamasa: with the same caveats
2019-06-23T19:20:11Z wasamasa: mess up and you get mindboggling resource usage
2019-06-23T19:20:15Z jcowan has written a number of compilers (for non-S-expression languages) using recursive descent
2019-06-23T19:20:40Z rain1: i have never understood the preference for recursive descent
2019-06-23T19:20:42Z wasamasa: I did two hand-written ones so far with recursive descent and wanted to try something else
2019-06-23T19:20:49Z rain1: isn't it just writing everything out manually
2019-06-23T19:21:10Z jcowan: Yes, but according to a fairly straightforward pattern.
2019-06-23T19:21:23Z daviid: not my domain, but is this not good enough: https://github.com/schemeway/lalr-scm/ 9it's in guile fwiw)
2019-06-23T19:21:36Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Be fair to regexps: it's only when you implement them badly, without using NFAs, that that happens.
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2019-06-23T19:21:51Z jcowan: I was asked to check a string for balanced parens, brackets, and angle brackets at an interview, and wrote a recursive descent parser to do so.
2019-06-23T19:21:53Z wasamasa: Riastradh: that's like 90% of the ones out there, lol
2019-06-23T19:22:20Z Zipheir: wasamasa: comparse is a decent Parsec clone, again, modulo its non-existant error handling.
2019-06-23T19:22:32Z wasamasa: Zipheir: yeah, I'll eventually run into that problem :<
2019-06-23T19:22:42Z jcowan: Riastradh: Your complaint about PEG grammars is a little like complaining about your compiler when it fails to warn you that you have written a program that does not do what you intended.
2019-06-23T19:23:06Z Riastradh: jcowan: A compiler that doesn't have even a very weak programmable theorem prover is not a very good compiler.
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2019-06-23T19:25:40Z Riastradh: So yes, if my compiler provides no tools to assert theorems about correct usage that it can verify, I will not be very happy with it!
2019-06-23T19:25:42Z Zipheir: The Parsec approach gives you an LL(1) parser with LL(∞) when you need it, which is at least better than the naïve, space-leaking combinator libraries that are just LL(∞).
2019-06-23T19:25:48Z jcowan: Okay, so your complaint is that PEG grammar notation is not redundant enough (above the level of well-formed rules)
2019-06-23T19:26:10Z jcowan: Zipheir: That sounds equivalent in power to PEG.
2019-06-23T19:26:59Z Zipheir: jcowan: Aren't parser combinators just a subset of PEG parsers?
2019-06-23T19:27:06Z Riastradh: `parser combinator' is not a parsing algorithm.
2019-06-23T19:27:39Z Zipheir: No, of course not.
2019-06-23T19:27:42Z Riastradh: You could write LALR parser combinators.  You could write LL(k) parser combinators.  You could write regular expression parser combinators.  You could write context-sensitive parser combinators.
2019-06-23T19:28:05Z rain1: What about the fact that most programming languages don't conform to a formal CFG language
2019-06-23T19:28:50Z Riastradh: rain1: They're usually close enough that you can combine a largely CFG structure with some extra logic in the parser actions to cover the distance (e.g., the endearingly named `lexer hack' in C).
2019-06-23T19:29:13Z jcowan: There is always the possibility of a van Wijngaarden two-level grammar parser, which can not only handle the whole syntax and static semantics, but the dynamic semantics as well.
2019-06-23T19:29:46Z wasamasa: you mean, if algol-68 comes back to the drawing desk?
2019-06-23T19:29:55Z Zipheir: Hah.
2019-06-23T19:30:24Z jcowan: You can get anything you want (excepting Alice) if you are willing to pay enough.
2019-06-23T19:31:28Z jcowan: Algol 68 has an evil reputation, partly due to Wirth and Hoare, but it is neither that bad a language nor that complex, especially by 21C standards.
2019-06-23T19:31:59Z Zipheir: One thing that seems unfortunate about most functional Hutton-Meijer-style combinator libraries is that they generally don't include a parser generator.
2019-06-23T19:32:12Z jcowan: In an alternative universe in which S.R. Bourne came back to Bell Labs a little sooner, it might have become the implementation language of Unix.
2019-06-23T19:32:16Z Zipheir: Even Parsec, the supposed 900-pound gorilla of the field, requires you to hand-translate.
2019-06-23T19:32:17Z wasamasa: jcowan: have you actually written code in it?
2019-06-23T19:32:29Z jcowan: I have, though only casually, not in anger.
2019-06-23T19:32:42Z wasamasa: I found it hard to use anything beyond trivial types
2019-06-23T19:33:11Z jcowan: But I studied the Report and especially the Revised Report in great detail with a friend.
2019-06-23T19:33:42Z wasamasa: coming up with the right incantations for list processing was annoying: https://github.com/wasamasa/mal-candidates/blob/master/algol-68/util.a68
2019-06-23T19:33:48Z jcowan: I even remember the eight automatic coercions (only six in the RR).
2019-06-23T19:34:28Z wasamasa: the errors a68g throws are inscrutable
2019-06-23T19:34:53Z jcowan nods.
2019-06-23T19:35:01Z jcowan: But probably not as inscrutable as g++.
2019-06-23T19:35:09Z wasamasa: true
2019-06-23T19:35:25Z jcowan: I note you have no Pascal version, which I suspect would be much harder.
2019-06-23T19:35:33Z wasamasa: could be
2019-06-23T19:35:39Z jcowan: (even if you remove the "An array's length is part of its type" blunder)
2019-06-23T19:35:40Z wasamasa: I have plenty other derivatives though
2019-06-23T19:35:47Z jcowan nods.
2019-06-23T19:35:54Z wasamasa: I gave up on algol w due to the string handling
2019-06-23T19:36:08Z wasamasa: modula-3 feels like the most usable from them all
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2019-06-23T19:36:16Z wasamasa: oberon-2 the most scheme-like
2019-06-23T19:36:19Z jcowan: Yes, that sucked.  Strings need to be primitive.
2019-06-23T19:36:40Z jcowan: But few languages have learned that lesson; almost all consider them arrays, or at least sequences.
2019-06-23T19:36:47Z wasamasa: they removed dynamic allocation
2019-06-23T19:36:59Z wasamasa: just to make the system bullet proof and simpler to implement
2019-06-23T19:37:05Z jcowan: which imao is like treating integers as sequences of digits, with "digit" as a separate type
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2019-06-23T19:37:37Z wasamasa: so it's fixed-length strings
2019-06-23T19:37:54Z Zipheir: Pascal?
2019-06-23T19:38:06Z wasamasa: in oberon-2
2019-06-23T19:38:20Z Zipheir: Ah.
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2019-06-23T19:38:52Z wasamasa: the reason pascal isn't in that repo is because it's all languages that aren't features in https://github.com/kanaka/mal/
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2019-06-23T19:39:43Z wasamasa: *featured
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2019-06-23T19:41:12Z Zipheir: Hmm, CHICKEN has an LALR egg, I wonder if that's any good: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/lalr
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2019-06-23T19:41:58Z Riastradh: Zipheir: No idea, never looked into those.  I have used yacc grumpily and lemon (and its Python clone lemonade) mostly happily.
2019-06-23T19:42:37Z wasamasa: apparently based on https://github.com/schemeway/lalr-scm
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2019-06-23T19:42:43Z Zipheir: Heh, yacc will probably never die, despite claims to the contrary.
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2019-06-23T20:28:08Z aeth: no software ever dies as long as someone is willing to take over maintaining it.
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2019-06-23T20:28:24Z aeth: Now, wether or not you should use something for a new project is a different story.
2019-06-23T20:30:47Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, lots of programmers would rather work on <Half-implemented Sexy Fad Software> than maintain some old-but-working project
2019-06-23T20:33:59Z Zipheir: So you have a choice of half-implemented new software and half-maintained old!
2019-06-23T20:36:45Z jcowan nods, wincing
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2019-06-23T20:55:08Z aeth: Zipheir: well, you could always use battle-tested legacy software like mongodb
2019-06-23T20:55:25Z gwatt: aeth: hrrrnggg
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2019-06-23T21:01:37Z gwatt: Zipheir: corollary: Lot's of scheme programmers prefer to re-implement scheme than write software in scheme.
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2019-06-23T21:05:57Z mdhughes: Greenspun's 11th rule: Every Scheme implementation contains an ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of whatever application you need.
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2019-06-24T14:12:44Z ecraven: hm.. working with http in bytevectors is not much fun
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2019-06-24T15:00:55Z gwatt: ecraven: are you preferring to work in strings?
2019-06-24T15:01:17Z ecraven: gwatt: well, I wish there were something like srfi 13 for bytevectors (or even better *one* srfi for both :P)
2019-06-24T15:01:32Z ecraven: bytevector-prefix?, bytevector-position, whatever
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2019-06-24T15:10:27Z Riastradh: Use regular expressions!
2019-06-24T15:12:34Z mdhughes: Reading HTTP requests? Once you find the \r\n\r\n in your bytevector, you can render the part before that into an ASCII string, and that'll give you the encoding for the body.
2019-06-24T15:13:43Z ecraven: indeed, but then you have multipart encoding, which mixes ascii and whatever other encodings
2019-06-24T15:14:04Z ecraven: Riastradh: does mit's regular expression library support bytevectors?
2019-06-24T15:14:30Z Riastradh: ecraven: I don't know, not sure I've ever used it except in Edwin.
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2019-06-24T15:14:56Z Riastradh: Actually there are something like three of them now, but I don't like any of them.  A few months ago I drafted an NFA lexer instead.
2019-06-24T15:15:33Z gwatt: snrk "Here use this thing!" "Does it do what I want?" "No idea!"
2019-06-24T15:17:41Z ecraven: Riastradh: publicly readable?
2019-06-24T15:18:30Z Riastradh: gwatt: That's not what I said!  I said `regular expressions', not `this particular (not-quite) regular expression implementation'.
2019-06-24T15:20:41Z Riastradh: ecraven: Well, I never finished it, but you can read the draft if you like: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/20190624/
2019-06-24T15:21:42Z ober: Riastradh: you think a system level scheme could ever be implemented on nbsd like guile wrt guix?
2019-06-24T15:21:53Z ecraven: thanks
2019-06-24T15:26:25Z Riastradh: ober: Not likely.
2019-06-24T15:28:00Z Riastradh: ecraven: The mechanism works on byte vectors (plus a few additional fabricated symbols like beginning of line anchor, end of line anchor, &c. -- should be generalized but never got around to that), so it can be used for any encoding you want -- and you could easily make it match (e.g.) any normalization of a given string.
2019-06-24T15:31:26Z Riastradh: ecraven: At the end of lex-test.scm is an example of a mail header state machine.
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2019-06-24T18:37:33Z Zipheir: Hmm, I thought "Use regular expressions!" was the Perl programmer's Litany Of Shame...
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2019-06-24T19:26:02Z mdhughes: Perl: Now you have N+1 problems.
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2019-06-24T19:35:19Z ecraven: Riastradh: thanks, from a very cursory glance, it looks interesting
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2019-06-24T19:38:05Z Riastradh: (The code quality is not high because it was an afternoon hack and I didn't have my copy of Hopcroft & Ullman on hand to review for the algorithms.)
2019-06-24T19:39:21Z ecraven: Riastradh: I have that somewhere ;)
2019-06-24T19:39:39Z ecraven: it would be great to have some cross-Scheme version on top of r7rs for generic parsing
2019-06-24T19:39:46Z ecraven: s/version/library/
2019-06-24T19:39:52Z ecraven: this or something else
2019-06-24T19:40:19Z Riastradh: Go for it.  Make a good LALR parser generator too.
2019-06-24T19:40:43Z ecraven: hehe, I'll see what I can do, but there's a lot of other things I'd like too
2019-06-24T19:41:27Z ecraven: and a lot of it seems to revolve around parsing and generating binary structures (X11, ldap, dns, lots of wire protocols)
2019-06-24T19:42:20Z jcowan: Use a computer, you now have N * 1,000,000 problems.
2019-06-24T19:42:26Z ecraven: definitely :P
2019-06-24T19:42:53Z jcowan: How to secure a computer:  Disconnect all cables, drop the computer down a deep well, fill the well with concrete.
2019-06-24T19:42:54Z ecraven: organic farmer sounds like a nice fallback plan, with not so much computing
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2019-06-24T20:12:08Z wasamasa: maybe that's why google keeps dropping goat references in their code
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2019-06-24T20:37:18Z amz3: rudybot: what progress does make the awesome green docked of r7rs?
2019-06-24T20:37:31Z rudybot: amz3: Then, you get points for finding and fixing bugs, and are docked points for filing duplicates and wontfix bugs.
2019-06-24T20:37:50Z amz3: rudybot: what about green docket
2019-06-24T20:37:51Z rudybot: amz3: added them to the green docket (non-portable)
2019-06-24T20:38:09Z amz3: rudybot: my srfi could go in green docket?
2019-06-24T20:38:14Z rudybot: amz3: added them to the green docket (non-portable)
2019-06-24T20:38:24Z amz3: rudybot: what a loop!
2019-06-24T20:38:31Z rudybot: amz3: the easiest way to do what you want will be to write a loop doing a re-search-forward and processing the match (retrieved by match-string )
2019-06-24T20:38:44Z amz3: :)
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2019-06-24T20:43:35Z Zipheir: All algorithms in green-edition libraries should be O(1) to reduce carbon production.
2019-06-24T20:44:28Z LeoNerd: Given enough memory to store a lookup table, all algorithms can be performed in amortized O(1) time
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2019-06-24T20:46:38Z amz3: engouh memory was one the argument that made my work interesting in the srfi
2019-06-24T20:46:51Z amz3: because there is never enough memory
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2019-06-24T20:55:03Z jcowan: It'll be a while before the Green Edition is voted on, and it will have to be done carefully, precisely because its SRFIs aren't portable.  However, if some are voted in (notably the Posix API), others become portable or perhaps even not necessary.
2019-06-24T20:57:06Z Zipheir: I'm interested to see how green edition goes.
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2019-06-24T21:01:47Z jcowan: So am I!
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2019-06-24T21:04:54Z jcowan: But before the Green comes the Orange, Amber, and Yellow.  The choice of macro systems (which is inherently unportable too) will be part of Amber.
2019-06-24T21:05:12Z jcowan: See https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ColorDockets.md for details.
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2019-06-24T21:19:10Z amz3: I will see how it goes, I might propose a peer-to-peer api If I came up with portable implementation
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2019-06-24T21:19:21Z amz3: s/api/srfi/
2019-06-24T21:19:47Z amz3: it is not the usual stuff... maybe nobody we will use. Anway I very busy with srif 167 168
2019-06-24T21:20:59Z amz3: jcowan: was it decided wether io will be part of posix srfi?
2019-06-24T21:21:42Z jcowan: I have a different pre-SRFI for that right now: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/FilesAdvancedCowan.md
2019-06-24T21:21:55Z jcowan: basically exposes port-level rather than fd-level operations
2019-06-24T21:22:14Z jcowan: so the theory is that if you want to do something with a fd, wrap it in a port and then use this lib
2019-06-24T21:22:48Z TCZ: "clojure is a common lisp implementation"
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2019-06-24T21:23:34Z amz3: jcowan: it doesn't forbit TLS stuff?
2019-06-24T21:23:51Z amz3: IIRC, you can code the TLS part inside a custom-binary-port
2019-06-24T21:24:00Z amz3: that at least waht ecraven did
2019-06-24T21:24:15Z jcowan: No, it has nothing to do with the network
2019-06-24T21:24:23Z amz3: oh
2019-06-24T21:24:28Z amz3: just files then?
2019-06-24T21:24:35Z jcowan: well, pipe and select, technically
2019-06-24T21:25:12Z jcowan: existing socket api is at https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-106/srfi-106.html
2019-06-24T21:25:29Z jcowan: nothing yet for http(s) layer.
2019-06-24T21:26:50Z amz3: oh tx!
2019-06-24T21:27:48Z amz3: I have the feeling that the SRFI will never end, I think I blow up the 20 days rule
2019-06-24T21:28:02Z amz3: at the same time people contribute to it so...
2019-06-24T21:28:16Z amz3: it somewhat positive
2019-06-24T21:28:22Z amz3: s/somewhat//
2019-06-24T21:28:41Z amz3: I have zero xp to POSIX I will try to read the srfi tho
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2019-06-24T22:12:33Z Riastradh: jcowan: You are having these printed and bound in the actual colours, right?
2019-06-24T22:12:48Z jcowan: Um, no.
2019-06-24T22:13:48Z Riastradh: Disappointing!
2019-06-24T22:13:50Z jcowan: amz3: Don't worry about that.  Art is fine with some slippage as long as comments are still coming in.  SRFI 160 has been around for a *year* because I've been ultra-slow in writing its implementation (several different approaches tried and dropped).
2019-06-24T22:14:08Z jcowan: Riastradh: You got the money, honey, I've got the time.
2019-06-24T22:14:23Z Riastradh: What good is a charter if it doesn't yield a colour-coordinated bookshelf!
2019-06-24T22:14:23Z jcowan: Or actually I don't have the time.  You got the money *and* the time, I'll bless it.
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2019-06-25T05:06:06Z siraben: Anyone know of a formally verified Scheme/Lisp implementation?
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2019-06-25T05:07:25Z siraben: Standard ML has CakeML
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2019-06-25T06:38:12Z wasamasa: siraben: I sense a volunteer
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2019-06-25T09:10:36Z amz3: :)
2019-06-25T09:10:54Z amz3: I never understand the point of transducers, maybe now is the time https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-171/
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2019-06-25T10:44:47Z amz3: AFAICT transducers are high order objects that allow to process containers
2019-06-25T10:45:47Z amz3: I considered such an idea for nstore and okvs, but I could not nail down the idea properly.
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2019-06-25T13:25:47Z jcowan: I look forward to reading it
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2019-06-25T13:49:40Z TCZ: Si je savais une chose utile `a ma nation qui fˆut ruineuse `a une autre,je ne la proposerais pas `a mon prince,parce que je suis homme avant d’ˆetre Fran ̧cais,parce que je suis n ́ecessairement homme,et que je ne suis Fran ̧cais que par hasard.
2019-06-25T13:49:54Z TCZ: - Charles de Montesquieu
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2019-06-25T14:19:58Z pjb: TCZ: which is the doom of France and the French people.
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2019-06-25T14:21:39Z Riastradh: Okey, can we take the nationalist commentary elsewhere, please, and keep #scheme for Scheme?
2019-06-25T14:22:52Z pjb: Riastradh: But you're all right with the previous anti-nationalistic comment.
2019-06-25T14:22:56Z Riastradh: TCZ: Please try to stay on-topic and use the channel for discussion of Scheme, not for code dumps and random quotations.
2019-06-25T14:22:58Z pjb: Riastradh: you're anti-French.
2019-06-25T14:23:02Z Riastradh: pjb: fuck off
2019-06-25T14:23:11Z pjb: Could you leave your anti-France comments out of this channel?
2019-06-25T14:23:17Z ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh
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2019-06-25T14:23:33Z Riastradh: sigh
2019-06-25T14:24:20Z ecraven: all the composing characters in that paste are incorrect for me
2019-06-25T14:24:32Z ecraven: maybe an emacs circe problem
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2019-06-25T14:33:21Z TCZ: this quote was from book about numerical methods
2019-06-25T14:34:02Z Riastradh: ecraven: Yes...the composing characters precede rather than follow the characters they're meant to compose with, and half of the accents are modifier letters rather than composing characters.
2019-06-25T14:34:41Z Riastradh: TCZ: OK.  Rather than dumping it in the channel without context, if you would like to discuss its relation to Scheme or programming that might be done in Scheme, can you draw that connection?
2019-06-25T14:35:02Z TCZ: no
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2019-06-25T14:36:38Z ecraven: TCZ: did you type it or copy/paste it
2019-06-25T14:36:52Z TCZ: copypasted
2019-06-25T14:37:24Z TCZ: whats the difference
2019-06-25T14:37:29Z Riastradh: TCZ: OK.  If you're not even going to try to connect it to Scheme, please take it elsewhere.  This channel is not your personal copypasta dumping ground.
2019-06-25T14:38:05Z TCZ: ok
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2019-06-25T14:38:29Z mdhughes: amz3: Transucers look like a backwards closure, putting the control structure in the function instead of the function into whatever control structure.
2019-06-25T14:38:39Z mdhughes: s/nsuc/nsduc/
2019-06-25T14:40:27Z gnomon: Riastradh, thank you.
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2019-06-25T14:51:54Z jcowan: "If I had an idea that was good for the implementation I use but damaging to Scheme as a whole, I would not mention it to my BDFL, because I am a Schemer first and an implementation user second."   Thuryago.
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2019-06-25T15:50:27Z amz3: +1
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2019-06-25T15:51:53Z amz3: mdhughes: I don't understand: putting the control structure in the function instead of the function into whatever control structure.
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2019-06-25T15:53:10Z amz3: the thing I see, is that one can do something like: (define proc (compose (fmap proc2) (ffilter proc3) (fsomething ..))) which I find handy because it can be tested independantly from what the application takes as argument
2019-06-25T15:53:33Z mdhughes: Normally to do a stateful traversal, you write a closure and it doesn't matter what you use to iterate.
2019-06-25T15:54:12Z amz3: that looks like generators.
2019-06-25T15:54:13Z mdhughes: This puts all the control code inside your lambda.
2019-06-25T15:54:19Z amz3: yes
2019-06-25T15:54:35Z amz3: control = iteration?
2019-06-25T15:55:22Z mdhughes: Yes. Might not even be iteration, doesn't matter how it's called if your closure just takes another element and does something with it.
2019-06-25T15:56:43Z mdhughes: I guess a general principle is you shouldn't have more information at a layer than it needs.
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2019-06-25T17:23:27Z Zipheir: My impression of transducers is "some random structure that BDFL Hickey hacked up one day".  IIRC when finally pressured into providing types for the transducer operations, they were wrong.
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2019-06-26T07:18:37Z amz3: what is still missing in r7rs that is in r6rs?
2019-06-26T07:24:08Z Zipheir: The core language or the libraries?
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2019-06-26T12:20:20Z gwatt: amz3: MUSTard
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2019-06-26T12:22:02Z amz3: I knew I was picking a sensitive subject.
2019-06-26T12:22:53Z gwatt: I would like to see a procedural macro system
2019-06-26T12:23:25Z amz3: Zipheir: I think it terms of libraries.
2019-06-26T12:23:50Z amz3: I don't know procedural macro systems.
2019-06-26T12:23:59Z amz3: my macro knowledge is weak anyway.
2019-06-26T12:24:40Z gwatt: e.g., syntax-case
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2019-06-26T14:17:29Z dTal: I think an unhygienic macro system should be the core feature, and a hygienic system should be implemented in that
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2019-06-26T14:30:26Z hugo: dTal: Doesn't Guile have it's hygienic system as the base, and the unhygienic system implemented in the hygienic?
2019-06-26T14:31:17Z dTal: How is that possible? If you can break hygiene within the system, surely it's by definition not hygeinic?
2019-06-26T14:32:08Z hugo: At least Guile provides `syntax-case', which allows new bindings to be introduced in the expanded form, but you need to be explicit about it
2019-06-26T14:32:18Z hugo: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Syntax-Case.html#Syntax-Case
2019-06-26T14:32:23Z hugo: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Defmacros.html#Defmacros
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2019-06-26T14:47:22Z gwatt: syntax-case is hygienic *but* allows you to use datum->syntax which is not.
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2019-06-26T17:01:08Z jcowan: In addition, there is syntax-parameter, which hygienically does much of the work that systems without it need low-level macros for.  Guile and Racket both have it, and there's the non-portable SRFI 139 which explains it.
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2019-06-26T18:37:03Z gwatt: jcowan: if a scheme has fluid-let-syntax is that a drop-in for syntax-parameterize?
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2019-06-26T19:01:41Z jcowan: I'm not sure, I've never seen fluid-let-syntax before.
2019-06-26T19:02:59Z jcowan: https://www.scheme.com/csug8/syntax.html makes them sound the same, yes.
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2019-06-26T20:31:16Z amz3: changing subject, I was reading http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2019-06-26T20:31:53Z amz3: I wonder what would be the schemey replacement for processus or threads
2019-06-26T20:34:31Z gwatt: amz3: continuations!
2019-06-26T20:34:47Z gwatt: (but probably processes or threads)
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2019-06-26T20:36:04Z amz3: there is guile fibers, that are greenthreads running in multiple posix threads, it rely on channels that is some kind of message passing facility where greenthreads (calle fibers) will rendez-vous to exchange some object (afaiu)
2019-06-26T20:38:40Z amz3: gwatt: that is what I was thinking too. Even if the memory is not an array (like in scheme) and that process communicate mostly via pipes which according to the author bad.
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2019-06-26T20:39:51Z amz3: I think I will read more on unikernels also known as library os
2019-06-26T20:40:38Z amz3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unikernel
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2019-06-27T01:28:30Z ober: guile uses an m to n threading setup?
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2019-06-27T08:46:35Z wasamasa: random guy rediscovers the power of trees and declares it superior to s-expressions: http://treenotation.org/
2019-06-27T08:46:52Z wasamasa: commentary is fun: https://lobste.rs/s/myhhcf/first_draft_successor_html
2019-06-27T08:55:01Z dTal: isn't this isomorphic to s-expressions, except so constructed as to not be parsable by CFG?
2019-06-27T08:56:53Z wasamasa: well, almost
2019-06-27T08:56:58Z wasamasa: you can autoformat s-expressions
2019-06-27T08:57:01Z wasamasa: guy forgot that part
2019-06-27T08:57:19Z wasamasa: anyway, I don't have a lobsters account, so any of you feel free to point out that crucial mistake
2019-06-27T08:57:32Z wasamasa: and once you have delimiters, you can do proper linting, too
2019-06-27T08:57:33Z civodul: fun
2019-06-27T08:57:45Z wasamasa: instead of just "The indentation is wrong"
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2019-06-27T09:15:50Z dTal: hm it's actually more like XML than s-expressions
2019-06-27T09:16:02Z dTal: it subtly encodes the attribute/element distinctino
2019-06-27T09:17:04Z dTal: by distinguishing between "words other than the first word on a line" and "indented children"
2019-06-27T09:18:40Z dTal: his make8.tree and make8.lisp seems to conflate the two, such that I'd like to see a similar example but with more than two levels of nesting
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2019-06-27T09:57:12Z amz3: this reads like YAML. You have not seen it all, until you read pseudo-declarative, pseudo-functional, pseudo-programming and pseudo "operations" in the form of Ansible playbooks.
2019-06-27T09:57:26Z amz3: Even scoping is broken.
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2019-06-27T09:57:57Z amz3: https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/user_guide/playbooks_variables.html#variable-precedence-where-should-i-put-a-variable
2019-06-27T09:57:57Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/2Veff4qsoy
2019-06-27T09:58:20Z amz3: at that is state-of-the-art for many.
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2019-06-27T10:06:33Z deuill: The fact there's no balanced delimiters makes this unsuitable as an interchange format... but the comment section is funny.
2019-06-27T10:06:51Z deuill: I distinctly remember a similar endeavour being posted on HN as well
2019-06-27T10:07:05Z deuill: Something about 2D data structures
2019-06-27T10:11:58Z amz3: is this another attempt at visual programming?
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2019-06-27T10:20:50Z mdhughes: This already exists, and it's called yaml, and it sucks in practice.
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2019-06-27T10:35:18Z mdhughes: And I've written XML-syntax "programming" languages, for text adventure authoring.
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2019-06-27T12:07:05Z jcowan: I worked out the other day that .INI files are isomorphic to a reasonable subset of XML (MicroXML specifically), and therefore to S-expressions.  They have the advantage that streaming parsing is trivial, which is not the case for XML.
2019-06-27T12:07:50Z jcowan: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/microxml/raw-file/tip/spec/microxml.html <-- an XML subset spec in 10 pages
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2019-06-27T13:01:21Z mdhughes: Missed a chance to use Crockford's snark by calling it "XML The Good Parts"
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2019-06-27T15:59:20Z jcowan laughs
2019-06-27T15:59:40Z jcowan: Although at that time the W3C wouldn't have liked that very much, I fear.
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2019-06-27T17:05:14Z mdhughes: Back in the day my manager wouldn't let me send TBL (at least not with my work address) my marked-up copy of the XHTML spec pointing out all the places where it did nothing useful. So I'm just happy WHATWG raised the black flag and sailed off.
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2019-06-27T19:05:08Z amz3: some tentative explanation how okvs works https://hyper.dev/around.20190624v1.pdf
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2019-06-27T20:19:32Z gwatt: amz3: your document says that in python '9' > '10' => False, which disagrees with its context
2019-06-27T20:19:45Z amz3: gwatt: tx!
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2019-06-27T20:38:46Z jcowan: amz3: Here's another quote for page 3:  "Plans are worthless, but planning is everything." —Dwight D. Eisenhower
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2019-06-27T20:41:06Z gwatt: The first victim of battle is always the plan
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2019-06-27T20:57:32Z jcowan: That too.
2019-06-27T20:59:54Z Riastradh: The beauty of this plan is its simplicity.  Once a plan gets too complex, everything can go wrong.
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2019-06-27T21:10:56Z amz3: i am happy with the current, even if it sound a bit "productivist"
2019-06-27T21:11:09Z amz3: not enough chill
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2019-06-28T02:52:14Z mdhughes: amz3: The normal ways to store data in Python are pickle, json, or Django, which all preserve the type just fine. You get a number back out, not a string of a number. I don't know any database except Berkeley db that just stores strings.
2019-06-28T02:56:52Z mdhughes: Might be easier to build what you want on top of SQLite, it's easy to embed but looks like a "real" SQL db.
2019-06-28T02:57:14Z Riastradh: .oO(What is a number, exactly?)
2019-06-28T03:00:36Z mdhughes: A miserable little pile of bits.
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2019-06-28T03:15:04Z Zipheir: No, the pile of bits is just the shadow cast on the cave wall by a real.
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2019-06-28T10:49:02Z jcowan: Riastradh: A natural number is either the empty set or a set containing one element, its predecessor.  As for unnatural numbers: "Die Consen und die Fixnumen hat der lieber McCarthy gemacht; alles andere ist Hackerwerk."
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2019-06-28T14:46:06Z amz3: I should prolly change the rational of okvs and not focus on RDBMS
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2019-06-28T15:35:29Z amz3: most okvs are file-based and support somekind of cache management, that allows to work with data that is bigger than RAM unlike python's pickle
2019-06-28T15:35:42Z amz3: pickle is turing complete and allows arbitrary code exec
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2019-06-28T15:36:10Z amz3: unlike okvs lexicographic packing procedure
2019-06-28T15:36:42Z amz3: if pickle should be compared to something it is indeed the lex pack procedure or json.
2019-06-28T15:37:35Z amz3: one can not compare a database library to a web framework.
2019-06-28T15:38:29Z amz3: like I have written previously, okvs are the modern build block of modern databases, see libraries.md, see google spanner paper.
2019-06-28T15:40:18Z amz3: it is indeed similar to SQLite, but unlike SQLite it doesn't force a particular schema (fixed column) and one could implement sql on top of okvs. Like 'around' document will demonstrate.
2019-06-28T15:40:37Z amz3: it is similar to SQLite in the sense that it can be embedded in a POSIX process.
2019-06-28T15:41:35Z Riastradh: What's the application you're trying to write for which sqlite3 isn't working out?
2019-06-28T15:41:40Z amz3: I have made no benchmarks comparing sqlite with the existing wiredtiger okvs bindings, granted.
2019-06-28T15:41:58Z amz3: Riastradh: does sqlite3 support threads?
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2019-06-28T15:42:32Z amz3: I was said a long time ago, that I should not use sqlite3 for what I wanted to do, at that time that was a graph property database.
2019-06-28T15:43:11Z amz3: okvs (and nstore) are a learning project, that happens to be a engineering pratice, even if not mainstream.
2019-06-28T15:43:52Z amz3: Riastradh: to answer you question, I think that I will try to replace blazegraph in wikidata infrastructure.
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2019-06-28T15:45:38Z amz3: mdhughes: also, I must add, that if you go dive deeper, you will notice that nstore does create all the _required_ permutations to query triples that are in the form (define object '((key value) ...)) by object, key and value. And that could be overkill.
2019-06-28T15:46:54Z amz3: otherwise said, in the case of triples. Three times the original size of the data is required _on disk_ except if one use UUIDs.
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2019-06-28T15:47:40Z Riastradh: amz3: Yes, in the sense that you can share a sqlite3 database connection between two threads as in <https://sqlite.org/threadsafe.html>; and yes, in the sense that two distinct sqlite3 database connections can concurrently read from a database while up to one thread writes to it with a write-ahead log.
2019-06-28T15:47:46Z Riastradh: https://sqlite.org/wal.html
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2019-06-28T15:48:23Z amz3: thanks I keep forgetting that fact. It is single thread writer and many readers.
2019-06-28T15:48:42Z amz3: and it allows multiple process to read the databasse too.
2019-06-28T15:50:38Z Riastradh: (With a rollback journal, a writer excludes readers.)
2019-06-28T15:50:48Z amz3: Riastradh: to continue the reply on "what the application you're trying to write for which sqlite3 isn't working out?" I have no clear answer yet. But the fact that the same code base can use a distributed okvs or embedded okvs is imo good to know
2019-06-28T15:52:35Z amz3: to some extend it is also true, in the case of sqlite, as one could rely on the same SQL code and switch to mysql, postgresql or cockroachdb or TiDB (distributed open source sql dbs, that support mysql and postgresql wire format)
2019-06-28T15:53:27Z amz3: the "same" SQL code.
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2019-06-28T15:59:40Z amz3: both cockroachdb and tidb are built on okvs stuff
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2019-06-28T16:04:23Z amz3: also, to continue to seemingly contradict the interest of my proposals, there is no validation (yet) in both okvs and nstore. That is garbage in, garbage out.
2019-06-28T16:06:35Z amz3: this conversation would be more productive using another medium.
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2019-06-28T16:11:54Z amz3: feel free to join the mailing list and express your concerns https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-167/
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2019-06-28T16:13:35Z amz3: (also python has a global interpreter lock which makes it unfit for okvs)
2019-06-28T16:13:46Z amz3: (that's why I started learning scheme in the first place)
2019-06-28T16:16:24Z jcowan: indeed, simulating an okvs using a SQL database is trivial: two columns, key on the first.
2019-06-28T16:22:53Z mdhughes: I often annoy "real" DBAs by doing my initial database schemas as just key + serialized plists, more or less like Mongo but with the ability to get less dumb.
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2019-06-28T16:25:47Z mdhughes: You can't ship like that if performance matters, but it's great for XP's "Simplest Thing" prototype.
2019-06-28T16:27:53Z jcowan: There's also the issue "This thing has 300 properties, most of which aren't known right now.  Fortunately most RDBMS systems represent NULL in 0 bytes.
2019-06-28T16:28:08Z jcowan: That's where graph databases and triple stores shine.
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2019-06-29T09:16:56Z ecraven: Riastradh: Hey ;) do you have any idea how to close down the network connection based on the port that `tcp-server-binary-connection-accept' returns?
2019-06-29T09:17:20Z ecraven: Riastradh: none of `close-port', `close-input-port' or `close-output-port' in any combination actually close down the underlying network connection.
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2019-06-29T09:37:39Z python476: hi guys
2019-06-29T09:38:00Z python476: I don't know if you were already aware of that, but readscheme has been bought
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2019-06-29T09:38:39Z python476: http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html <= redirects to some parking website
2019-06-29T09:38:49Z python476: web.archive.org has backups though
2019-06-29T09:38:51Z python476: anyway that's it
2019-06-29T09:43:23Z wasamasa: yeah, there've been a few mirroring attempts
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2019-06-29T10:39:54Z ecraven: I have a 1.5G mirror (though just locally), I hope that's complete
2019-06-29T10:44:02Z amz3: python476: here is a mirror https://github.com/scheme-live/library.readscheme.org
2019-06-29T10:44:20Z amz3: python476: hello btw :)
2019-06-29T10:45:11Z amz3: python476: you want to learn scheme?
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2019-06-29T13:13:47Z python476: amz3: I'm working on Queinnec's LISP book
2019-06-29T13:14:06Z python476: it's about evaluation semantics and vm's
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2019-06-29T14:22:20Z ecraven: I like that book!
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2019-06-29T14:42:22Z python476: ecraven: you read it fully ?
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2019-06-29T14:42:42Z python476: I read 60% but only internalied a third tbh
2019-06-29T14:43:02Z python476: that's why I'm actually trying to write the interpreters in it
2019-06-29T14:43:23Z python476: not from scratch but without copy pasting the book, so my brain does actually work :)
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2019-06-29T14:57:17Z python476: hopefully soon after I'll go into kanren and more native compiler topics
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2019-06-29T15:25:48Z ecraven: I read it two or three times, but many years ago and in french
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2019-06-29T15:34:40Z python476: do you master every style of eval, bytecode vm and compiling to C ?
2019-06-29T15:34:48Z python476: i'll be happy when I do
2019-06-29T15:38:07Z ecraven: definitely not ;)
2019-06-29T15:38:47Z ecraven: I've written toy implementations of the former two, and plan on doing one that compiles to actual machine code, but "the best-laid plans of mice and men..."
2019-06-29T15:39:16Z python476 googles for reference
2019-06-29T15:39:24Z ecraven: ah, even better.. it actually says "the best laid schemes o' mice an' men"!
2019-06-29T15:39:30Z ecraven: very apt quote ;D
2019-06-29T15:39:31Z python476: I'd love to do a tiny scheme to asm compiler
2019-06-29T15:39:49Z ecraven: well, in some ways that is very simple.. in others, very hard
2019-06-29T15:39:59Z ecraven: it's not hard to get (+ 1 2) to compile to working machine code
2019-06-29T15:41:24Z python476: I had visions of native code microstack threading for parallel native scheme.
2019-06-29T15:41:31Z python476: talking about "plans"
2019-06-29T15:41:48Z ecraven: just keep at it, who knows, some day, it might work out ;)
2019-06-29T15:42:25Z python476: yeah, that's the spirit
2019-06-29T15:45:06Z jcowan: That will probably be the obituary for R7RS-large if it fails
2019-06-29T15:45:15Z jcowan: which is why I'm releasing it in tranches
2019-06-29T15:46:11Z ecraven: jcowan: "that"?
2019-06-29T15:46:22Z jcowan: best-laid Schemes
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2019-06-29T15:46:46Z ecraven: hehe, it'd make a good epitaph.. though I really hope it doesn't come to that
2019-06-29T15:47:04Z python476: are people still talking about r7rs large ?
2019-06-29T15:47:12Z ecraven: I've written a small fcgi and scgi library which mostly works under chez, chibi and mit.. that wouldn't be possible without r7rs
2019-06-29T15:47:25Z ecraven: python476: yes, it's ongoing, and has a lot of very useful results
2019-06-29T15:47:39Z python476: ecraven: cool
2019-06-29T15:47:43Z python476: I shall snipe the ML
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2019-06-29T15:49:58Z python476: ho, this guy made a bench page https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2019-06-29T15:50:01Z python476 whistles
2019-06-29T15:50:33Z wasamasa: that reminds me that at least one patch of mine didn't make it in
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2019-06-29T15:50:51Z wasamasa: and that I should add C5 to that list
2019-06-29T15:51:32Z wasamasa: there should be a noticable difference because the numerical tower has been properly integrated
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2019-06-29T15:53:29Z ecraven: wasamasa: sorry, I've been very bad at merging PRs :-/
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2019-06-29T15:54:13Z wasamasa: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-coverage/pull/3
2019-06-29T15:54:41Z ecraven: ah, coverage, I'll merge that and rerun it asap
2019-06-29T15:55:11Z python476: man reading community issues like r7 large or stdlib gives me headaches
2019-06-29T15:55:18Z python476: I don't know how you manage to keep going
2019-06-29T15:55:52Z ecraven: kudos to jcowan!
2019-06-29T15:58:11Z python476: is he the crown owner ?
2019-06-29T15:58:28Z ecraven: he's the one who's organizing r7rs-large
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2019-06-29T15:58:54Z python476: thumbs up
2019-06-29T15:59:16Z python476 runs knapsack on r7rs-large
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2019-06-29T16:01:26Z dieggsy: python476: re: asm have you seen http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/bones/
2019-06-29T16:01:35Z python476: don't think so
2019-06-29T16:01:38Z python476: lemme click
2019-06-29T16:02:19Z python476: first time. It seems it's intended as educational too, thanks
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2019-06-29T16:02:52Z dieggsy: huh its also on the benchmarks page FWIW
2019-06-29T16:03:21Z python476: I honestly didn't notice its line
2019-06-29T16:04:21Z python476: I marveled at chez performance too deep
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2019-06-29T16:07:55Z wasamasa: performance isn't everything
2019-06-29T16:08:19Z python476: wasamasa: what else do you value ?
2019-06-29T16:08:37Z wasamasa: how well things work
2019-06-29T16:08:52Z wasamasa: some call it quality
2019-06-29T16:09:10Z ecraven: chez is really fast, and is missing a lot of relevant libraries
2019-06-29T16:09:25Z wasamasa: suppose you picked cyclone scheme because you need compilation to C and concurrent GC
2019-06-29T16:09:29Z ecraven: so to actually get things done, it at least pays to think about what else you need except for speed
2019-06-29T16:09:34Z wasamasa: you'll quickly find out there's tons of bugs left to shake out
2019-06-29T16:09:42Z wasamasa: a big community helps with that aspect
2019-06-29T16:09:49Z ecraven: there's a reason why many people use chicken, guile and racket
2019-06-29T16:09:57Z python476: is chez of bad quality though ? missing libs aside
2019-06-29T16:09:59Z ecraven: (not meaning to bash on the other schemes)
2019-06-29T16:10:12Z wasamasa: it's a professional-grade scheme
2019-06-29T16:10:15Z ecraven: I haven't found it to be of bad quality, however it has its own quirks
2019-06-29T16:10:22Z python476: I mean racket is about to reroot on it
2019-06-29T16:10:26Z wasamasa: or rather, commercial-grade
2019-06-29T16:10:51Z wasamasa: it's big issue is that for most of its lifetime, it's not been used by many people
2019-06-29T16:10:52Z dieggsy: python476: or rather it had and is working out the kinks
2019-06-29T16:11:25Z wasamasa: so now people are pushing hard towards package managers for R6RS and libraries for chez
2019-06-29T16:11:30Z ecraven: the thing I really love about MIT/GNU Scheme is that it's a Scheme thoroughly meant for interactive use. most other schemes don't support as much introspection and mutation as it does
2019-06-29T16:11:40Z python476: wasamasa: most of its use was embedded right ?
2019-06-29T16:11:51Z wasamasa: no idea
2019-06-29T16:11:56Z ecraven: I don't think anyone outside Cisco really knows what Chez was/is used for
2019-06-29T16:12:03Z python476: I thought it was used in cisco device
2019-06-29T16:12:07Z python476: yeah
2019-06-29T16:12:10Z wasamasa: it was bought by cisco
2019-06-29T16:12:17Z wasamasa: that itself doesn't mean much
2019-06-29T16:12:24Z python476: I recall reading something about embedded use
2019-06-29T16:12:32Z python476: I wouldn't throw that out of nowhere otherwise
2019-06-29T16:13:01Z python476: or maybe I infered from chez author slides about perf and constraints
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2019-06-29T16:32:14Z jcowan: The point of rehosting Racket on Scheme isn't performance, it's ease of maintenance.  Perhaps half the source code lines in Racket are C because Racket itself is too slow.
2019-06-29T16:32:58Z ecraven: from what I've seen, racket-on-chez is not significantly faster than normal racket, at the moment
2019-06-29T16:34:56Z jcowan: And not really expected to be: for that, Chez would have to be faster than C for what C is doing in Racket.  Which is unlikely.
2019-06-29T16:35:34Z python476: :)
2019-06-29T16:37:18Z jcowan: The whole macroexpander is in C, for example, and when rewritten in Racket its perf was intolerably bad.  But rewritten in Chez it does well enough, and is much easier to change.
2019-06-29T16:39:19Z ecraven: jcowan: well, the racket JIT "just" replaces instructions with predefined code, so you could probably do a bit better than that with a full compiler
2019-06-29T16:39:24Z ecraven: at least it did when I last checked, I think
2019-06-29T16:45:24Z dieggsy: ecraven: Chicken 5 is already in the benchmarks code, right? would it showing up on the website just take rerunning the benchmarks on your server/computer?
2019-06-29T16:46:13Z dieggsy: not tryina rush you, I'm just curious
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2019-06-29T17:04:12Z python476: oh that's what wasamasa meant by C5
2019-06-29T17:04:29Z python476: dieggsy: I think he linked a PR to update the benchmarks
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2019-06-29T17:34:38Z wasamasa: no, I linked a PR to update a different project
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2019-06-29T17:37:16Z python476: .. fail on my side
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2019-06-29T17:38:39Z wasamasa: anyway, I wanted to some C5-specific changes to the benchmarks
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2019-06-29T18:01:12Z dieggsy: wasamasa: ooh, like what?
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2019-06-29T18:09:21Z wasamasa: no longer using numbers, lol
2019-06-29T18:09:25Z wasamasa: same with coverage
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2019-06-29T18:13:52Z dieggsy: wasamasa: wouldn't that be covered automatically by just including C5
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2019-06-29T18:25:11Z wasamasa: we'll have to see
2019-06-29T18:25:23Z wasamasa: in any case, now that C5 has hit a few releases, it's time to do this
2019-06-29T18:32:06Z dieggsy: wasamasa: ...should we wait until the lfa2 bugs are fixed though? heh. i haven't looked extensively at the source code for the benchmarks so idk if that would affect stuff, but i think -O5 is used to compile tem
2019-06-29T18:37:01Z dieggsy: huh, i didn't realize the benchmarks defaulted to 'chicken-stalin' https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks/blob/master/bench#L146 . i also didn't realize stalin was r4rs, or as old as it is
2019-06-29T18:37:26Z ecraven: I haven't found a way to run chicken-stalin recently, as it hasn't been ported to c5 yet
2019-06-29T18:37:42Z wasamasa: ah, I think we've found a volunteer
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2019-06-29T18:39:21Z ecraven: hehe, I wish
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2019-06-29T18:40:05Z Zipheir: I imagine a lot of CHICKEN installations got broken by C5, since every *nix OS started pushing C5 as soon as it was released.
2019-06-29T18:40:34Z wasamasa: not really, the recommendation is to install things into $HOME
2019-06-29T18:40:45Z wasamasa: that way you can update and switch installations whenever you want
2019-06-29T18:41:07Z Zipheir: You mean avoid distro packages of chicken?
2019-06-29T18:41:10Z wasamasa: yes
2019-06-29T18:41:32Z Zipheir: That's usually good advice in general, yes.
2019-06-29T18:42:05Z ecraven: is it though...
2019-06-29T18:42:13Z ecraven: I really don't *want* to install everything myself into home
2019-06-29T18:45:41Z dieggsy: wasamasa: huh, i didn't realize that was recommended. do you keep it  in ~/.local? or elsewhere
2019-06-29T18:45:46Z dieggsy: ecraven: same, for the most part
2019-06-29T18:46:03Z dieggsy: i've mostly made my peace with chicken-install -s
2019-06-29T18:46:04Z wasamasa: ~/.chickens
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2019-06-29T20:22:22Z duncanm:  Duncan Mak anyone know off hand how to convince dired to view a tar file without it ending in *.tar?
2019-06-29T20:22:25Z duncanm:  anyone know off hand how to convince dired to view a tar file without it ending in *.tar?
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2019-06-29T20:51:37Z amz3: no
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2019-06-29T20:54:57Z edgar-rft: duncanm: Maybe somebody in #emacs knows.
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2019-06-29T21:00:45Z duncanm: i figured it out
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2019-06-29T21:22:42Z jcowan: The whole point of distros is that they try to make sure everything in the distro works with, or at least doesn't step on, everything else.  If you randomly  re-version components you risk breaking that.
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2019-06-30T02:17:56Z siraben: Damn, Chez is damn fast.
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2019-06-30T02:18:09Z siraben: According to those r7rs benchmarks.
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2019-06-30T02:49:31Z oni-on-ion: =)
2019-06-30T02:50:09Z oni-on-ion: racket using chez now, but their benchmarks so far are not too different than plain racket, sometimes worse. not sure of the current state
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2019-06-30T03:47:02Z siraben: What makes chez so fast?
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2019-06-30T04:11:15Z mdhughes: Hosts its own compiler to asm, instead of relying on another compiler. So everything that makes the compiler faster makes Chez faster.
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2019-06-30T06:14:32Z wasamasa: caring about speed, lol
2019-06-30T06:14:46Z wasamasa: you must have missed dybvig's paper on memory management patterns
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2019-06-30T06:15:24Z wasamasa: or things like having a policy where a compiler optimization only makes it in if it speeds up bootstrapping
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2019-06-30T12:03:13Z ChoHag: Is it possible to construct a function with the same arity as another, but where that is only known at runtime?
2019-06-30T12:04:34Z amz3: what is arity?
2019-06-30T12:08:14Z python476: arg count
2019-06-30T12:09:11Z amz3: tx
2019-06-30T12:09:30Z python476: ChoHag: wild guess, write a macro that takes your runtime unknown function to count parameters and generate a new one
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2019-06-30T13:30:44Z python476: anybody familiar with well-order (set theory and induction) ?
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2019-06-30T14:10:10Z jcowan: python476: A little bit, why?
2019-06-30T14:14:16Z python476: jcowan: it's a fuzzy feeling that a lot of problem solving in lisps/schemes are aided due to the fact that cons lists have this well-order nature
2019-06-30T14:14:59Z python476: and I was curious to know if induction over well-orders have been used on non lists types
2019-06-30T14:15:58Z python476: basically, should we try to think in terms of finding an order over a dataset/structure.. which would let the solution emerge
2019-06-30T14:16:48Z jcowan: It's not enough to be ordered, really.
2019-06-30T14:16:50Z python476: and by non lists, I mean non linear types (integers are also linear, you decrement or increment to reach your base case)
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2019-06-30T14:17:00Z python476: jcowan: oh ok
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2019-06-30T17:36:02Z jcowan: python476: Specifically, induction on vectors is awkward, because there is no obvious way to partition them into a simple and a complex part.  You end up doing induction on integers which are used to index the vector.
2019-06-30T17:36:31Z jcowan: Even though vectors are unquestionably linear
2019-06-30T17:36:45Z python476: jcowan:
2019-06-30T17:36:46Z python476: woops
2019-06-30T17:36:55Z python476: jcowan: what about multidimensional sets/spaces ?
2019-06-30T17:44:07Z jcowan: People don't usually do induction on them, for the same reason; there's no natural partitioning.  In a system that's based on lazy arrays, things like binary search can be written inductively, I suppose.
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2019-06-30T17:48:05Z python476: jcowan: alright, I was wondering if people did "research" on ordering them in the hope that it would lead to new ideas
2019-06-30T17:50:30Z jcowan: I was messing around the other day trying to find a way to do hashtables whose keys are a pair of natural numbers in order to do sparse matrices.
2019-06-30T17:51:02Z jcowan: The neat thing about what I came up with is that it doesn't need to know the dimensions of the simulated matrix at all.
2019-06-30T17:55:26Z python476 confused
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2019-06-30T17:56:57Z python476: so you hashtable is a set of set points in the simulated matrix
2019-06-30T17:57:00Z python476: your*
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2019-06-30T18:00:15Z jcowan: To find the point for <r, c>, compute r^2 + 2r + c^2 + 2cr + c + 1, all over 2.
2019-06-30T18:00:44Z python476: ohh you hash the pairs non generically
2019-06-30T18:01:24Z jcowan: Not really a hash, because it delivers a unique value for every <c, r> without regard to their range.
2019-06-30T18:01:36Z python476: ok
2019-06-30T18:01:41Z jcowan: (which of course then gets hashed by the hash table, but I don't care about that.
2019-06-30T18:01:42Z jcowan: )
2019-06-30T18:02:53Z jcowan: It boils down to:  Top left corner of the matrix is 0, the 2-element diagonal <0, 1> and <1, 0> are 1 and 2, then the next diagonal has 3 elements and is numbered 3-5, etc.
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2019-06-30T18:03:44Z jcowan: So a 3 x 3 matrix uses the indices 0, 1, 3; 2, 4, 7; 3, 8, 12.
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2019-06-30T18:10:29Z jcowan: But from the Lisp viewpoint what matters is that this is an eqv-hash-table and not the more expensive equal-hash-table.
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2019-06-30T18:32:18Z python476: jcowan: so your "coordinate" scheme has a few collisions but
2019-06-30T18:32:31Z python476: since it's eqv you still win some
2019-06-30T18:33:00Z jcowan: Yes, and the collisions only happen at the hashtable level; the mapping is one to one.
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2019-06-30T18:44:12Z python476: is letcc equivalent to call/cc ?
2019-06-30T18:44:18Z python476: (I am reading seasoned schemer)
2019-06-30T18:45:02Z python476: oh well http://community.schemewiki.org/?seasoned-schemer
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2019-06-30T20:30:46Z jcowan: python476: It's a slightly abbreviated form of (call/cc (lambda (k) body ...))
2019-06-30T20:31:11Z jcowan: made to look (slightly) more like let
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2019-06-30T20:47:30Z python476: maybe it was common at the time of the book publicatoin
2019-06-30T20:47:32Z python476: publication*
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