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2019-05-01T01:19:28Z amz3: https://framagit.org/a-guile-mind/guile-wiredtiger/commit/4d3931b6f4490cc8a53e7c14ca5fdcebba4c11cb#win
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2019-05-01T14:00:40Z lambdapanda: Hi! I'm wondering if relying on macros is a good or a bad thing. Also, is it even possible to work on big projects without using macros?
2019-05-01T14:03:35Z lambdapanda: as a side question: is there a book/reference on the idiomatic way to program in scheme? or best engineering practices in scheme etc
2019-05-01T14:04:34Z amz3: I rarely write my own macro
2019-05-01T14:04:52Z amz3: and hello :)
2019-05-01T14:04:58Z lambdapanda: :)
2019-05-01T14:05:19Z lambdapanda: Yeah I found a lot of useful macros online but I feel like it's too much work to create one from scratch
2019-05-01T14:05:34Z amz3: it depends on the macro
2019-05-01T14:06:19Z amz3: here is the last macro I have written
2019-05-01T14:06:19Z lambdapanda: true but it feels like a double edged sword to me. But I say that as a scheme newbie
2019-05-01T14:06:22Z amz3: https://framagit.org/a-guile-mind/guile-wiredtiger/blob/master/wiredtiger/nstore.scm#L318-322
2019-05-01T14:06:54Z amz3: it is small and useful. IIRC it is called a threading macro, it like 'compose' but the order of the procedure is reversed
2019-05-01T14:07:02Z amz3: somewhat like 'compose'
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2019-05-01T14:08:25Z lambdapanda: interesting
2019-05-01T14:09:03Z pjb: lambdapanda: it's always possible to program down in the Turing Tarpit.
2019-05-01T14:09:18Z pjb: lambdapanda: in theory, macros are strictly not needed.
2019-05-01T14:09:36Z amz3: lambdapanda: btw I rely on DrRacket macro stepper to debug macro
2019-05-01T14:09:51Z pjb: lambdapanda: you can use HOF, or in the worst case, you can go metalinguistic (write your own compiler/interpreter).
2019-05-01T14:11:07Z lambdapanda: pjb: but how commonly are they relied on in practice? I get that it's nice to use macros provided by the implementation or library, but how often would you write your own?
2019-05-01T14:11:28Z pjb: lambdapanda: that said, where macros are really useful, compared to mere syntactic transformations such as provided by hygienic macros, is when you can perform computations at compilation-time.  I find it easier to do in CL than in scheme. (it's still possible in scheme, but it's more complicated and more implementation dependentn AFAICS).
2019-05-01T14:11:30Z lambdapanda: amz3: yeah the DrRacket macro stepper is awesome. Sadly I can't figure out how to use Guile in DrRacket
2019-05-01T14:12:34Z pjb: lambdapanda: well, from the very few "big" scheme code bases I could browse, I didn't notice an extensive use of macros either.
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2019-05-01T14:13:10Z pjb: Programming with HOF is nice too, leads easily to functional style.
2019-05-01T14:14:53Z lambdapanda: pjb: yeah I agree
2019-05-01T14:15:23Z amz3: for instance scheme-pffi is mostly made of macros
2019-05-01T14:15:28Z amz3: or is r6rs-pffi
2019-05-01T14:15:47Z amz3: or is +it+ r6rs-pffi
2019-05-01T14:18:00Z pjb: amz3: for FFI? It's common, since that allows to map to the implementation specific FFI without run-time penalty (already FFI is costly, so better avoid runtime overhead if possible).
2019-05-01T14:18:16Z amz3: yes
2019-05-01T14:18:19Z amz3: bbl
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2019-05-01T17:53:00Z Zipheir: Hah, since when are hygienic macros "mere syntactic transformations"?
2019-05-01T17:53:22Z Zipheir: As opposed to what?
2019-05-01T17:56:58Z pjb: Unhigienic macros compute.
2019-05-01T17:58:32Z Zipheir: And hygienic macros don't??
2019-05-01T17:59:59Z Zipheir: In that case, how is it that you can write a scheme interpreter with syntax-rules alone?
2019-05-01T18:00:36Z Zipheir: Is it merely a case of doing the right syntactic rituals to invoke the ghost of Turing to move your bits for you?
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2019-05-01T18:30:08Z jcowan: Computing *is* mere syntactic transformation.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Thue_system for a string rewriting system that is Turing-complete.
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2019-05-01T19:25:46Z Zipheir: Exactly.
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2019-05-01T19:40:33Z jcowan: I've been thinking about "applicable records", a kind of record that can also be invoked as a function, in such a way that the slots of the record are both accessible from inside and modifiable from outside.
2019-05-01T19:41:36Z rain1: that sounds decent, what's the use case?
2019-05-01T19:41:55Z jcowan: There is a docket item for this.  CL with MOP extensions has it already
2019-05-01T19:42:51Z jcowan: Mostly just convenience: instead of (baz-call a-baz arg1 arg2) you can just say (a-baz arg1 arg2), which is much more Schemey (in CL you'd need to use funcall in such a case)
2019-05-01T19:43:31Z jcowan: Functions-with-state are poor man's objects (and objects are poor man's functions)
2019-05-01T19:43:48Z vyzo: I think that's a bad idea
2019-05-01T19:43:52Z hugo: jcowan: That sounds just like an object which only supports a single method
2019-05-01T19:43:54Z vyzo: you are adding overhead to all calls
2019-05-01T19:43:57Z jcowan: Hmm.  Why?
2019-05-01T19:44:07Z hugo: And that can already be better achived with a closure.
2019-05-01T19:44:12Z vyzo: you need to check if it is an applicable record
2019-05-01T19:44:19Z vyzo: and yes, it can already be achieved with a closure
2019-05-01T19:44:21Z vyzo: so it's bloat
2019-05-01T19:44:24Z jcowan: It's possible to implement it portably with two restrictions:
2019-05-01T19:44:26Z rain1: hmm thats a good point
2019-05-01T19:44:34Z rain1: it might force a slowdown
2019-05-01T19:44:56Z jcowan: 1) there can be no "baz?" predicate, and internal access to slots is read-only
2019-05-01T19:45:02Z jcowan: er, s/and/and 2)
2019-05-01T19:45:48Z jcowan: in this way it's just a closure that accepts magic arguments to get and set slots, which are really just variables bound in a let around the lambda.
2019-05-01T19:46:08Z vyzo: the more pertinent question is "why?"
2019-05-01T19:46:16Z ecraven: personally, I've run into this before and regretted not having a proper predicate :-/
2019-05-01T19:46:16Z vyzo: what is gained by applicable records?
2019-05-01T19:46:18Z jcowan: I guess 2) is not actually true either, so it's just the lack of type predicates.
2019-05-01T19:46:29Z ecraven: vyzo: things like generic functions are maybe simpler to implement that way?
2019-05-01T19:46:47Z ecraven: as in "new things that are like functions but are not just closures"
2019-05-01T19:46:48Z vyzo: not really, the generic function can wrap in a closure
2019-05-01T19:46:48Z hugo: Again, what do you gain over a let over lambda?
2019-05-01T19:46:49Z jcowan: Generic functions w/o classes are straightforward anyway.
2019-05-01T19:47:00Z ecraven: vyzo: it can, but does it *have* to?
2019-05-01T19:47:18Z vyzo: what's wrong with it?
2019-05-01T19:47:28Z vyzo: everything wraps stuff in a closure, it's scheme :p
2019-05-01T19:47:30Z ecraven: there's no way to have it return #f for procedure? for example
2019-05-01T19:47:45Z ecraven: vyzo: exactly, but isn't that the point of r7rs-large, to lessen that pain a bit? :P
2019-05-01T19:47:59Z vyzo: I fear we are adding too much fluff
2019-05-01T19:48:01Z jcowan: It means that something like (baz-ref a-baz 'foo) is really (a-baz '(magic-cookie ref foo))
2019-05-01T19:49:00Z ecraven: that's what I can get anyway, that doesn't help me with getting proper applicable objects :-/
2019-05-01T19:49:06Z jcowan: where magic-cookie is some unique, inaccessible object like (string-copy "magic-cookie")
2019-05-01T19:49:14Z ecraven: (though as others have said, maybe there's no *need* for them anyway)
2019-05-01T19:50:10Z vyzo: you are going to have to change the code generated at function calls
2019-05-01T19:50:19Z vyzo: now instead of checking if it's a procedure and calling it
2019-05-01T19:50:27Z vyzo: you have to check if it is a procedure, and then check if it is an object
2019-05-01T19:50:39Z vyzo: you are adding code in the hot path of pretty much everything
2019-05-01T19:50:44Z Zipheir: It came up in the last applicable-record discussion, but could this be used to implement something like Haskell's record-update idiom?
2019-05-01T19:50:45Z vyzo: which blows caches
2019-05-01T19:51:12Z Zipheir: e.g. rec { slot = "foo" } --> <updated rec>
2019-05-01T19:51:37Z Zipheir: IMO something similar for SRFI-9 records would be most welcome.
2019-05-01T19:51:39Z ecraven: I obviously haven't thought this through thoroughly, just saying that I've run across the wish for this previously over the years. mit-scheme has this (in two different ways, even), and it's nice ;)
2019-05-01T19:52:07Z ecraven: Zipheir: isn't that just some sort of special syntax?
2019-05-01T19:52:30Z ecraven: lenses for example should do immutable updates inside nested structures
2019-05-01T19:52:51Z jcowan: vyzo: With the portable design, these objects just *are* procedures.  It's just that there is no portable way to ask a procedure anything.
2019-05-01T19:53:02Z Zipheir: ecraven: Maybe, but the point is that in Scheme I have to have an update-rec-slot procedure that copies everything but <slot>, which is updated.
2019-05-01T19:53:05Z jcowan: So no slowdown, you just sacrifice the predicate
2019-05-01T19:53:15Z vyzo: which is a big sacrifice
2019-05-01T19:53:42Z vyzo: and back to procedural objects we are
2019-05-01T19:55:13Z jcowan: Well, not necessarily.  If you are willing to be non-portable, you can just associate a cell with each procedure that holds its pseudo-type.
2019-05-01T19:56:20Z jcowan: No slowdown, no restrictions, just a slight space cost.
2019-05-01T19:56:50Z jcowan: Or if you have weak hashtables, you can do it that way.
2019-05-01T19:57:10Z jcowan: That has more overhead if you use it, but zero overhead in either time or space if you don't.
2019-05-01T19:58:15Z Zipheir: What kind of procedures would be useful to encode as applicable records?
2019-05-01T20:00:21Z jcowan: Gauche has a type called "hook", an object that people can attach their procedures to, such that when the hook is invoked, all the procedures are invoked too..
2019-05-01T20:01:13Z jcowan: The caller of the hook doesn't have to know how it works, just invoke it and everything happens.
2019-05-01T20:01:28Z jcowan: https://practical-scheme.net/gauche/man/gauche-refe/Hooks.html#Hooks
2019-05-01T20:01:54Z jcowan: The Guile equivalent is the same, but you have to know to call run-hook to invoke the hook.
2019-05-01T20:02:36Z jcowan: So there is one slot, the list of procedures, and some handy methods to add a procedure, remove a procedure, get the list of procedures, etc. etc.
2019-05-01T20:03:17Z jcowan: It creates an abstraction barrier between those who invoke hooks and those who register hook procedures.
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2019-05-01T20:06:48Z Zipheir: That's interesting.
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2019-05-01T20:09:32Z Zipheir: I think app-records are a good idea, it's just a bit abstract to me at the moment.
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2019-05-01T20:16:16Z jcowan: In Gauche, procedure? returns #t on such objects.
2019-05-01T20:16:24Z jcowan: "If an object that is neither a procedure nor a generic function is applied to some arguments, the object and the arguments are passed to a generic function object-apply."
2019-05-01T20:16:58Z jcowan: However, assuming that applicable objects are rare, this is not really the hot path at all (pace vyzo): it's part of the error-recovery path.
2019-05-01T20:19:49Z vyzo: it still needs code to handle it
2019-05-01T20:19:54Z vyzo: it blows caches
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2019-05-01T20:22:08Z vyzo: btw, gauche is an interpreter right?
2019-05-01T20:22:19Z vyzo: it's much easier to do this short of thing in an interpreter
2019-05-01T20:25:45Z jcowan: True.
2019-05-01T20:26:30Z jcowan: In any case, the type-cell solution or its weak-hash-table equivalent does not have those problems.
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2019-05-01T21:25:39Z dTal: it's depressing how high impedance trying to do anything that involves any kind of library is in Chez Scheme
2019-05-01T21:26:02Z dTal: in theory everything should be awesome. In practice nothing. works. ever
2019-05-01T21:27:42Z dTal: I just want to draw a fricken image on the screen, but here I am two SDL bindings and two OpenGL bindings later and I haven't made a single demo run or even an empty window
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2019-05-01T21:30:00Z jcowan: Yak shaving....
2019-05-01T21:30:41Z dTal: I don't *want* to screw around with libraries all evening, that's the boring part
2019-05-01T21:31:03Z dTal: I *want* to call (draw-pixel x y color) and make it happen, so help me
2019-05-01T21:31:15Z jcowan spends his entire life in Scheme screwing around with libraries
2019-05-01T21:32:13Z dTal: ("so help me" as in "put that thing back where it came from or so help me" not as in "assist me with with my problem")
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2019-05-01T21:35:01Z dTal: it feels like water skiing, it promises to be amazing and fast and fun if I can ever get going, but so far all I've done is flounder around up to my neck
2019-05-01T21:35:30Z rain1: that is so frustrating
2019-05-01T21:35:43Z rain1: we need curated lists of libraries that actually work
2019-05-01T21:35:51Z rain1: instead of just finding all kinds of broken half made ones on google
2019-05-01T21:37:15Z dTal: yes I'm using two curated lists of libraries that actually work, thunderchez and akku
2019-05-01T21:37:19Z gwatt: akku or raven are probably good places to look.
2019-05-01T21:37:27Z dTal: akku let me down today
2019-05-01T21:37:29Z gwatt: and thunderchez
2019-05-01T21:38:24Z dTal: I dunno, thunderchez's SDL bindings *might* work, but I don't know if I'm using them right because they're undocumented
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2019-05-01T21:38:38Z gwatt: hah
2019-05-01T21:38:43Z dTal: all I get is "Exception in foreign-entry: no entry for <blah>"
2019-05-01T21:39:07Z gwatt: sounds like you're missing a (load-shared-object ...) call
2019-05-01T21:39:26Z rain1: dTal: wait. the stuff on akku isn't working?
2019-05-01T21:39:46Z gwatt should probably actually try out akku one of these days
2019-05-01T21:40:22Z dTal: rain1: no, I get "Exception: invalid foreign-callable convention __collect_safe at line 47, char 32 of /home/dtal/implicit-scheme/.akku/lib/sdl-basic.sls"
2019-05-01T21:40:52Z gwatt: ah, that's a version mismatch
2019-05-01T21:41:16Z gwatt: I don't remember when __collect_safe went in, but I think it was between 9.5.1 and 9.5.2
2019-05-01T21:44:09Z dTal: gwatt: thanks for the heads up on the (load-shared-object) thing, I didn't realize I had to do that myself. Now I'm on "invalid foreign procedure argument" which is a bit more tractable :p
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2019-05-01T21:44:55Z dTal: ah, so I need to update Chez?
2019-05-01T21:45:27Z gwatt: probably
2019-05-01T21:45:39Z gwatt: what version of chez do you have?
2019-05-01T21:46:52Z dTal: it reports 9.5. My package manager says 9.5_2 whatever that means, and offers an update to 9.5.2_1
2019-05-01T21:47:55Z gwatt: I think 9.5.2 should have it
2019-05-01T21:48:40Z dTal: Awesome!
2019-05-01T21:48:55Z dTal: sadly I also need to download 3 gigs of other updates to get it
2019-05-01T21:49:11Z gwatt: can you not specify "Just this one package" ?
2019-05-01T21:49:27Z dTal: I can, but it's a rolling release so I'm asking for weird breakage.
2019-05-01T21:49:41Z rain1: you might find it easier to build chez from source
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2019-05-01T21:50:13Z dTal: rain1: that just pushes the breakage till later, it's fine I shouldn't have left it this long anyway
2019-05-01T21:50:59Z gwatt: what does chez depend on in your package manager?
2019-05-01T21:52:00Z dTal: glibc, ncurses-libs, libuuid, and zlib
2019-05-01T21:52:14Z dTal: actually it updated by itself seemingly fine
2019-05-01T21:52:29Z gwatt: are you on debian?
2019-05-01T21:52:38Z dTal: No, Void.
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2019-05-01T21:53:31Z gwatt: ah, debian was the only distro I knew of that forced Chez to link libz dynamically
2019-05-01T21:53:48Z gwatt: chez's default behavior is to link it statically
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2019-05-01T21:55:31Z dTal: Okay, Akku's (sdl2) fails with "Exception: variable SDL_Rect-x is not bound"
2019-05-01T21:55:58Z dTal: However the chez-sdl library I downloaded off github now works
2019-05-01T21:56:44Z dTal: and it's even documented a little, which means I can stop shaving yaks for a while
2019-05-01T21:56:55Z dTal: it won the race :p
2019-05-01T21:58:12Z rain1: thats great! I do hope akku gets fixed up th,ugh
2019-05-01T22:00:06Z dTal: Well, it "kinda" works in that the events demo runs. Neither of the demos that actually put things on the screen work.
2019-05-01T22:01:39Z dTal: I'd better update.
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2019-05-01T22:59:52Z dTal: damn, there's some kind of race condition in the chez-sdl demo which made it look like it didn't work. I ported the whole script over to thunderchez's bindings and it also fails in exactly the same way (window but no image). Throw in a delay and it works every time.
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2019-05-01T23:59:51Z dTal: What's does the convention of surrounding a symbol with asterisks indicate?
2019-05-01T23:59:56Z erkin: A constant
2019-05-02T00:00:08Z gwatt: I think it
2019-05-02T00:00:28Z gwatt: I think it's idiomatic in common lisp
2019-05-02T00:00:32Z erkin: dTal: http://community.schemewiki.org/?variable-naming-convention
2019-05-02T00:01:16Z gwatt: erkin: that link says asterisks indicate a global, not a constant
2019-05-02T00:01:43Z erkin: Eh, constant was a wrong way to put it.
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2019-05-02T00:06:34Z dTal: okay I'm waterskiing now
2019-05-02T00:06:55Z gwatt: dTal: I assume that's an improvement over yak shaving?
2019-05-02T00:07:02Z dTal: very much!
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2019-05-02T00:07:52Z dTal: I've wrapped enough SDL functions now to be able to write (begin (shade (lambda (x y) (gray (mod (+ x y) 255)))) (redraw))
2019-05-02T00:08:26Z dTal: and I have to say Chez is incredibly fast for such a high level language because that command completes in about a tenth of a second
2019-05-02T00:08:33Z dTal: if that even
2019-05-02T00:09:56Z gwatt: chez is currently top dog on ecraven's scheme benchamarks
2019-05-02T00:10:50Z dTal: Yeah, that's one reason why I'm banging my head against its immature ecosystem, as opposed to Chicken
2019-05-02T00:11:25Z dTal: (another is that R6RS looks a bit nicer)
2019-05-02T00:11:41Z gwatt: If chezscheme had been open source from its beginning, I it would probably have a better ecosystem
2019-05-02T00:11:58Z dTal: undoubtedly, but we can't have everything
2019-05-02T00:12:41Z dTal: but it will get better I think, I can see things improving gradually year on year
2019-05-02T00:13:43Z dTal: I'm liking how there's a small collection of mutually compatible R6RS implementations, that's a really good sign
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2019-05-02T00:32:01Z Zipheir: But R6 is Old News at this point.
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2019-05-02T00:34:24Z gwatt: everything old is new again
2019-05-02T00:37:45Z Zipheir: Given how much work implementing an R6 Scheme is, I wonder if the heavy investment will cause the R6 fans to ignore R7, as the R5 fans ignored R6...
2019-05-02T00:39:06Z Zipheir: Well, given how long it's been since R7 came out, I guess that's already happened.
2019-05-02T00:39:20Z dTal: As a programmer, I would selfishly rather language implementers work hard so I don't have to
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2019-05-02T00:40:59Z gwatt: I think that 6 has some pretty parts over 7.
2019-05-02T00:41:48Z gwatt: I prefer 6's record system
2019-05-02T00:45:54Z Zipheir: Immutable strings were also good, imo.  Hopefully it won't be too long before the various R7/R5+ Schemes start using texts when they should be.
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2019-05-02T01:28:02Z jcowan: I just finished writing a POSIX SRFI.
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2019-05-02T01:28:14Z jcowan: (except for the rationale)
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2019-05-02T01:35:46Z jcowan: Of the R6 systems, Larceny and Sagittarius already have R7, Gambit is working on it, Racket has an unofficial system that will stay unofficial, Guile is working on it, and my guess is that Vicare, Iron, Ypsilon, Mosh, and Chez will never have it (unless unofficially).
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2019-05-02T01:36:44Z jcowan: So I consider that pretty successful.
2019-05-02T01:37:07Z jcowan: Zipheir, gwatt, dTal: ^^
2019-05-02T01:38:14Z sodastab: gambit's planned to get official R7RS support?
2019-05-02T01:39:39Z sodastab: a SRFI with fork/exec/posix_spawn/pipe sounds great
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2019-05-02T01:45:43Z dTal: Is it not possible to implement R7 in R6?
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2019-05-02T01:49:19Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-05-02T02:16:53Z mdhughes: dTal: I've had the same problem with Chez, which is why I switched to Chicken and everything worked, but it's a pile of hacks.
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2019-05-02T02:46:03Z gwatt: jcowan: I think chez will at least have partial support. There is already a PR to support the library language.
2019-05-02T02:46:14Z jcowan: Nice!
2019-05-02T02:47:44Z gwatt: dybvig has said r7rs support will be welcomed, but not prioritized.
2019-05-02T02:51:06Z gwatt: r6rs will take precendence, but r7rs support will not be ignored
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2019-05-02T03:24:11Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-05-02T07:20:50Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-05-02T07:35:26Z Zipheir: rudybot: sentientp
2019-05-02T07:35:26Z rudybot: Zipheir: Any day now
2019-05-02T07:35:40Z Zipheir: rudybot: Just checking.
2019-05-02T07:35:42Z rudybot: Zipheir: just checking - do you really want to use a list instead of a hash?
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2019-05-02T07:40:45Z aeth: rudybot: How will we know when the day comes?
2019-05-02T07:40:48Z rudybot: aeth: benaiah`: for all we know bieber hate is right now inspiring a skunkworks engineer somewhere to revolutionize physics by inventing a FTL drive that will one day power spaceships that will allow us to NOT live in the same planet as bieber and to flee fast enough whenever he comes to visit
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2019-05-02T08:20:00Z siraben: rudybot:  sounds implausible
2019-05-02T08:20:00Z rudybot: siraben: maybe he just wanted to shit in one channel and eat in another. Doesn't seem too implausible
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2019-05-02T09:03:38Z amz3: o/
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2019-05-02T10:37:02Z gwatt: where does rudybot get all this stuff?
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2019-05-02T11:02:55Z dTal: Thanks for the tips and positive attitude last night guys. I ended up staying up *way* too late having fun with my shiny new 2D SDF renderer :p
2019-05-02T11:03:46Z dTal: Now I can't wait for lunch so I can go off and play with it some more. This is what programming should be like - fun and exciting.
2019-05-02T11:07:40Z dTal: (I've been playing with libfive lately and it's so enjoyable I wanted a 2d version, like curv has)
2019-05-02T11:08:27Z amz3: :)
2019-05-02T11:09:32Z dTal: (I also wanted a system that takes arbitary lambdas instead of a differentiable subset, so I can plot stuff like mandelbrot sets)
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2019-05-02T12:03:43Z TCZ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHiCEvPHDU
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2019-05-02T15:47:10Z siraben: Today I learned that Chapter 8 of "Let Over Lambda", "Lisp moving Forth moving Lisp" is dedicated to implementing a Forth in Common Lisp
2019-05-02T15:47:28Z siraben: The author must be a big Forth fan, even cites his dad for introducing him to Forth
2019-05-02T15:48:06Z rain1: does it include a lisp interpreter in forth?
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2019-05-02T15:56:47Z siraben: rain1:  no
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2019-05-02T15:57:22Z siraben: The appendices are extremely opinionated, one of them is dedicated towards hating on Emacs!
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2019-05-02T15:58:21Z siraben: Naturally, he is a Vim lower
2019-05-02T15:58:28Z siraben: lover*
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2019-05-02T16:01:40Z siraben: Otherwise it's a solid book
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2019-05-02T16:33:01Z mdhughes: Has a blog, no RSS. (move 'head 'desk) https://hoytech.com
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2019-05-02T18:01:55Z Zipheir: Can anyone explain what the wrapping loop is doing in this error check procedure from SRFI 1? https://paste.debian.net/1081219
2019-05-02T18:04:45Z pjb: Zipheir: it's making you laugh?
2019-05-02T18:05:56Z Zipheir: Comedy loops in arg checking procedures?  I hope not.
2019-05-02T18:06:20Z Zipheir: I assume its purpose is to re-raise the error forever.
2019-05-02T18:06:43Z pjb: Can errors be ignored in scheme?
2019-05-02T18:07:29Z Zipheir: In R7 the error procedure raises an exception, so sure.  Although this procedure far predates R7.
2019-05-02T18:09:09Z pjb: Well perhaps they assume that error can return a new value to be used in place of the old one.  Then the loop is justified.
2019-05-02T18:09:27Z Zipheir: Right, that's another possibility.
2019-05-02T18:09:35Z pjb: Otherwise, why not write (if (pred val) val (let errloop ()  (error "Bad argument" val pred caller) (lp)))
2019-05-02T18:10:00Z pjb: so we see an explicit infinite loop, and used only when (pred val) is false.
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2019-05-02T18:11:07Z Zipheir: Agreed.  They must be expecting a new value from error.
2019-05-02T18:12:53Z Zipheir: It has to mean something, this is code by one of the great minds of Scheme. :)
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2019-05-02T18:50:08Z johnjay: Zipheir: who are the great minds of scheme other than Guy Steele and Sussman?
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2019-05-02T18:54:47Z Zipheir: Olin, for one.
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2019-05-02T19:05:03Z z0d: Oleg
2019-05-02T19:05:48Z z0d: Riastradh
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2019-05-02T19:11:55Z duncanm: la la la
2019-05-02T19:12:02Z gnomon: DUM de dum
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2019-05-02T19:18:09Z amz3: rudybot: what do you think of Sussman?
2019-05-02T19:18:20Z rudybot: amz3: Despite what Sussman says, I do think that type theory can save humanity from the abyss of endless bug-hunting. :)
2019-05-02T19:18:44Z amz3: rudybot: what you say is not very conventional
2019-05-02T19:18:50Z rudybot: amz3: No, it's just that "chic" is a very peculiar word to use in that context; "chick" would be more ... shall we say conventional?
2019-05-02T19:45:30Z gwatt: rudybot: what do you think of rudybot
2019-05-02T19:45:31Z rudybot: gwatt: m rudybot what do you think about erc bots?
2019-05-02T19:48:37Z vyzo: rudybot: where do you get this stuff?
2019-05-02T19:48:40Z rudybot: vyzo: Im just at the stage where I can get stuff done, but I like it so far. Check that page that fsbot gave and I started from this (http://appsintheopen.com/articles/1-setting-up-emacs-for-rails-development) and then hit the google for 12 hours straight
2019-05-02T19:48:52Z vyzo: lol
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2019-05-02T19:55:17Z z0d: johnjay: and probably the Scheme48/T guys
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2019-05-02T20:01:27Z dTal: Has anyone here actually made anything with Thunderchez's SDL bindings?
2019-05-02T20:02:24Z dTal: I can't find any examples anywhere.
2019-05-02T20:04:12Z dTal: Which means I'm left following the C documentation as closely as possible, which feels very wrong for Scheme
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2019-05-02T20:15:20Z amz3: those might be low level bindings
2019-05-02T20:16:37Z dTal: They are, and maybe I could fumble through with that, but it's not really clear where the C stops and the scheme starts
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2019-05-02T21:07:46Z amz3: dTal: look at guile-sd2 for maybe inspiration
2019-05-02T21:11:18Z wasamasa: the sdl2 egg is nice, but you still need to consult the sdl2 docs to truly understand it
2019-05-02T21:12:19Z davexunit: guile-sdl2 also lacks docs giving Schemey examples (my fault, sorry), but it does provide high-level bindings!
2019-05-02T21:13:57Z dTal: Alas, I don't think studying another set of bindings will help me
2019-05-02T21:14:31Z dTal: I actually have another set here (chez-sdl) which are much nicer and come with a few examples, but they're really incomplete
2019-05-02T21:14:42Z dTal: to the point where I'm not sure I'll be able to do everything I want with them
2019-05-02T21:15:01Z wasamasa: do a small rendering demo in C, port it to scheme
2019-05-02T21:15:48Z dTal: this is mostly an exercise in getting to know Chez's FFI + the idiosyncracies of whatever script generated these bindings
2019-05-02T21:16:29Z wasamasa: brain.exe I bet
2019-05-02T21:17:40Z dTal: more like c2ffi + "parse-sdl-json.ss"
2019-05-02T21:17:53Z dTal: it's quasi-automated
2019-05-02T21:18:07Z dTal: according to the readme anyway
2019-05-02T21:18:44Z dTal: which would explain why it's such a terrible interface
2019-05-02T21:19:55Z dTal: which I guess is the price you pay for complete coverage of the entire API
2019-05-02T21:21:02Z wasamasa: well, the sdl2 egg has been done by hand
2019-05-02T21:21:14Z wasamasa: lots of sensible improvements to the API
2019-05-02T21:21:20Z wasamasa: it just takes time and effort
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2019-05-02T21:36:12Z amz3: +1
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2019-05-02T23:38:40Z gwatt: are there schemes that support unhygienic string interpolation?
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2019-05-02T23:39:48Z gwatt: I'd like to have a string "$asdf" or "$(foo 1 2)" and have that substitute the result of those expressions into the string
2019-05-02T23:40:31Z pjb: It's funny how it would trivial to implement in CL, but how hard it would be to implement in scheme :-)
2019-05-02T23:40:33Z gwatt: chicken has some string-interpolation functions, but it runs eval
2019-05-02T23:40:51Z gwatt: pjb: not hard at all. I implemented it before asking
2019-05-02T23:41:11Z gwatt: but I can't be the first schemer to want this
2019-05-02T23:41:47Z pjb: are environments not implementation specific in r7rs?
2019-05-02T23:41:58Z pjb: Because in r5rs, you couldn't do it.
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2019-05-02T23:43:56Z gwatt: you just need unhygienic macros. it's pretty easy in syntax-case, and would probably be even easier with er macros
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2019-05-03T00:02:58Z jcowan: You can do it with readmacros, but not otherwise that I know of.
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2019-05-03T01:00:28Z gwatt: Here it is in its r6rs glory: https://gist.github.com/gwatt/01c3c99b52c1c6f90311edbb01713df3
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2019-05-03T01:10:38Z dTal: Hmmmm. "Exception in exact: no exact representation for +nan.0"
2019-05-03T01:12:10Z dTal: I forgot I was calling (exact) on every pixel. How expensive is that function?
2019-05-03T01:13:12Z gwatt: if it's called on an exact, probably pretty nice
2019-05-03T01:13:31Z dTal: It's called on inexact integers.
2019-05-03T01:15:12Z gwatt: I would assume it's slower than the equivalent C code, but it's probably the fastest way to covert flonums to exacts in scheme
2019-05-03T01:15:15Z dTal: MIT Scheme has all kinds of nice functions to efficiently truncate decimals, but in Chez I'm stuck doing (floor (exact n)) all the time.
2019-05-03T01:15:35Z dTal: (sorry - (exact (floor n))
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2019-05-03T01:17:12Z dTal: In particular, (floor->exact x) which is described as equivalent to (exact (floor x)) except faster and "fewer range restrictions"
2019-05-03T01:21:36Z gwatt: how are you generating the flonums?
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2019-05-03T01:22:00Z gwatt: Because the most obvious performance check is to generate fixnums and not flonums
2019-05-03T01:22:52Z gwatt: (and btw, flonum->fixnum might be what you want)
2019-05-03T01:23:47Z aeth: What's a flonum?
2019-05-03T01:24:25Z gwatt: floating point number
2019-05-03T01:25:11Z gwatt: aeth: number that yields #t when given to the flonum? predicate. ;-)
2019-05-03T01:25:37Z aeth: strange name since "float" is shorter
2019-05-03T01:26:09Z dTal: gwatt: oh thanks, that's more elegant
2019-05-03T01:26:30Z dTal: althought I don't see any obvious performance difference so maybe Chez catches the idiom already
2019-05-03T01:27:54Z dTal: mostly I'm generating the numbers with signed distance fields, it's not so easy to get integers out of those!
2019-05-03T01:28:46Z aeth: Is flonum Chez terminology?
2019-05-03T01:29:12Z dTal: no, standard scheme
2019-05-03T01:29:24Z gwatt: r6rs at least
2019-05-03T01:29:41Z aeth: it's not in r7rs
2019-05-03T01:29:48Z aeth: or, at least r7rs-small
2019-05-03T01:29:49Z gwatt: ok that's dumb. r6rs defines fixnum->flonum but not flonum->fixnum
2019-05-03T01:30:08Z aeth: I read r7rs-small cover to cover back in the day.
2019-05-03T01:30:39Z dTal: we need R6RS2 lol
2019-05-03T01:31:04Z aeth: of course
2019-05-03T01:33:59Z siraben: rudybot: what do you think of dependent types?
2019-05-03T01:34:00Z rudybot: siraben: If I'm right about it, it means dependent types aren't suitable for all uses of verification (namely, I can't "reuse" functions' code, and just check that if the arguments are type <foo> then know that the result is type <bar>). I also can't think of any way to use them to reason about relationships between things (e.g. "this variable is always 1 higher than this other variable").
2019-05-03T01:34:50Z siraben: rudybot:  Solving "this variable is always 1 higher than this other variable" seems easy enough. Just use dependent dependent types!
2019-05-03T01:34:55Z rudybot: siraben: it comes as default and at the time I didn't imagine that the problem was with that interaction. And after solving it it stopped being an issue so I didn't remove it. Still, even if one removes pulseaudio there is a trend to have key components dependent on PolicyKit, ConsoleKit, now systemd to a certain extent. Also dbus.
2019-05-03T01:35:59Z dTal: gwatt: well regardless, Chez implements it, and like you say it's dumb so by extension any r6rs scheme that doesn't implement it is dumb
2019-05-03T01:36:18Z dTal: therefore I will feel comfortable using it :)
2019-05-03T01:40:46Z gwatt: that's fair
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2019-05-03T02:03:49Z Zipheir: aeth: You need to look at the SRFIs more often, then: SRFI 144 has flonums covered.
2019-05-03T02:03:54Z Zipheir: rudybot: srfi 144
2019-05-03T02:03:54Z rudybot: Zipheir: is there a reason why srfi-144 contains all kinds of fractions of pi, but not fl-2-pi?
2019-05-03T02:04:23Z Zipheir: Ugh.  rudybot needs some more useful features, like a SRFI info function.
2019-05-03T02:06:42Z Zipheir: rudybot: swat rudybot
2019-05-03T02:06:42Z rudybot waves his Palm of Slapping® threateningly at rudybot
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2019-05-03T02:18:23Z aeth: Zipheir: I have like 30-40 SRFIs in my history, just not that SRFI
2019-05-03T02:19:09Z aeth: "by John Cowan, ..." so I guess it's going to show up in r7rs-large, then
2019-05-03T02:19:52Z aeth: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-144/
2019-05-03T02:20:20Z aeth: jcowan: Are flonums going to be in r7rs-large as flonums?
2019-05-03T02:20:35Z aeth: And will it be SRFI 144?
2019-05-03T02:23:24Z Zipheir: Fixnums melt and become flonums
2019-05-03T02:23:30Z Zipheir: It makes sense to me.
2019-05-03T02:25:01Z aeth: It makes sense that flonums are floating point numbers because bignums are big... point? numbers.
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2019-05-03T10:09:01Z ufobat_: is there a spec-test available to check whether a scheme implementation matches the r5rs or r7rs standard?
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2019-05-03T10:11:00Z ecraven: ufobat_: I've started some on https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-coverage but it is far from finished
2019-05-03T10:11:52Z ufobat_: thank you :)
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2019-05-03T10:46:58Z dTal: Is there any reason at all not to include every srfi by default?
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2019-05-03T10:56:05Z gwatt: Some require language changes and are not simple libraries.
2019-05-03T10:56:40Z jcowan: And some are just ... stupid
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2019-05-03T11:04:49Z dTal: I thought about clarifying with "every *normal* srfi" where "normal" is defined as "including stuff like useful datatypes and skipping stuff like alternate syntaxes"
2019-05-03T11:04:51Z amz3: some are overlapping
2019-05-03T11:05:38Z dTal: So that's kind of an issue when the srfis are a de facto stdlib
2019-05-03T11:06:22Z dTal: Rackets seems to address this by just blessing a bunch of them and promoting them to racket/base
2019-05-03T11:06:36Z dTal: *Racket
2019-05-03T11:12:17Z amz3: I am not sure how this relates to srfi vs. rnrs
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2019-05-03T12:38:56Z amz3: if you are looking for some macro goodness here are some https://bitbucket.org/bjoli/guile-threading-macros/src/default/syntax/threading-impl.scm
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2019-05-03T20:28:53Z abdulocracy: Hey guys, so I want to start dabbling in Scheme
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2019-05-03T20:30:06Z abdulocracy: How would you recommend I start, which implementation, which resources?
2019-05-03T20:30:53Z abdulocracy: It's a bit confusing ^^'
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2019-05-03T20:35:40Z gwatt: I think racket's probably good one to start with. It's got a lot of batteries-included and pretty good tutorials on the site
2019-05-03T20:37:08Z gwatt: The one downside is that it diverged from rnrs (the scheme standards) so it may be very different from the others
2019-05-03T20:42:41Z abdulocracy: I'd like to learn closer to standards, do you have any recommendations for that?
2019-05-03T20:44:39Z abdulocracy: I currently maintain mit-scheme for my OS, would that be okay for beginner-level stuff?
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2019-05-03T20:49:26Z moldybits: if you're sticking to the standard it shouldn't matter?
2019-05-03T20:51:36Z gwatt: moldybits: while that's true, the racket tutorials are not restricted to the standard so you'll have more work to stick to the standard
2019-05-03T20:57:20Z moldybits: i meant more for the regular scheme implementations. mit-scheme or whatever, any of them should be fine, no?
2019-05-03T20:57:41Z moldybits: assuming you look things up in the rnrs of your choice
2019-05-03T20:58:05Z moldybits: and then when you outgrow the standard you look for some implementation with the libraries you need
2019-05-03T20:58:50Z moldybits: i only dabbled in racket and it seemed really weird :s
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2019-05-03T21:11:13Z abdulocracy: Is there a decent resource I could use for rnrs?
2019-05-03T21:11:25Z abdulocracy: Like a tutorial type thing
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2019-05-03T21:24:30Z moldybits: probably anything would do. it's not a big language :p
2019-05-03T21:25:26Z moldybits: https://web-artanis.com/scheme.html maybe.
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2019-05-03T21:25:32Z moldybits: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ is a book.
2019-05-03T21:25:43Z moldybits: there's SICP, but that's not a tutorial. :s
2019-05-03T21:25:50Z dTal: I always just try to build a toy program, like a primality tester, and build out from there.
2019-05-03T21:26:26Z Zipheir: abdulocracy: As moldybits suggests, TSPL is a good book, if very nuts-and-bolts.
2019-05-03T21:26:51Z moldybits: seems this edition is r6rs, not sure if that's a problem?
2019-05-03T21:27:11Z abdulocracy: Thanks these seem nice :)
2019-05-03T21:27:18Z dTal: Worth noting that Racket's the only implementation with an IDE outside of Emacs.
2019-05-03T21:27:26Z Zipheir: Yeah, I doubt there is an R7RS version, given it's Chez-oriented...
2019-05-03T21:27:41Z gwatt: TSPL isn't chez oriented, it's strictly R6RS
2019-05-03T21:27:44Z abdulocracy: Do I need an IDE?
2019-05-03T21:27:51Z dTal: No, not at all
2019-05-03T21:27:52Z Zipheir: No.
2019-05-03T21:28:42Z abdulocracy: How do schemers scheme?
2019-05-03T21:28:53Z abdulocracy: Is it a compiled language?
2019-05-03T21:29:00Z rain1: it can be compiled or interpreted
2019-05-03T21:29:10Z rain1: i keep things basic and just write my code in a file nad then run it
2019-05-03T21:29:11Z abdulocracy: Or do you all write in the REPL :D
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2019-05-03T21:29:19Z rain1: some people work with basic interactivity and repls and stuff
2019-05-03T21:29:27Z moldybits: the repl is nice for testing things
2019-05-03T21:29:43Z abdulocracy: So like Python then, I think I'll keep the same workflow
2019-05-03T21:29:47Z dTal: personally I use a good text editor and an open repl and do a lot of copying and pasting between them
2019-05-03T21:29:48Z Zipheir: The Little Schemer and its sequel are probably the best introduction to Schemely thinking, if you're OK with using a subset of the language.
2019-05-03T21:30:17Z abdulocracy: dTal same here with Python, hopefully with scheme too once I start learning :)
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2019-05-03T21:31:28Z dTal: it's slightly easier to load a file in scheme than in python, you just do (load "file")
2019-05-03T21:33:11Z abdulocracy: Loading as in? :)
2019-05-03T21:33:16Z abdulocracy: Importing or running?
2019-05-03T21:33:45Z moldybits: isn't that the same thing in python?
2019-05-03T21:34:03Z abdulocracy: Nope
2019-05-03T21:34:07Z dTal: no, the python equivalent is exec(open("file").read())
2019-05-03T21:34:21Z moldybits: well, it runs it, doesn it?
2019-05-03T21:34:42Z moldybits: print("hello") in a.py, then >>> import a    that will print hello, won't it?
2019-05-03T21:35:03Z dTal: the definitions in the file automatically get scoped to it
2019-05-03T21:35:26Z moldybits: yeah. it does run, though.
2019-05-03T21:35:39Z dTal: so a top level function "foo" in file "bar" imports into the namespace as bar.foo
2019-05-03T21:35:47Z moldybits: from a import * is pretty much the same thing, though?
2019-05-03T21:35:51Z Zipheir: Ugh, python.
2019-05-03T21:36:52Z dTal: kinda, except you can't specify a path
2019-05-03T21:36:53Z moldybits: hey, it's better than c++ :D
2019-05-03T21:37:01Z Zipheir: What isn't, though.
2019-05-03T21:37:05Z abdulocracy: moldybits oh no
2019-05-03T21:37:12Z abdulocracy: Not C++
2019-05-03T21:37:53Z dTal: I hope somebody writes an awesome scheme editor that isn't emacs one of these days
2019-05-03T21:37:53Z Zipheir: "C++ is an insult to the human mind." --Wirth
2019-05-03T21:38:47Z amz3: abdulocracy: I made  small tutorial https://github.com/a-guile-mind/book/#a-guile-mind-book also here is a partial documentation of R7RS https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/guile-r7rs/tree/master/doc
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2019-05-03T21:41:23Z abdulocracy: amz3 thanks, and I got a good laugh at the comic strips :D
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2019-05-03T21:41:55Z Zipheir: amz3: Are you working on guile-r7rs these days?
2019-05-03T21:42:27Z amz3: Zipheir: the subset I needed is done. I will work more slowly on th rest.
2019-05-03T21:43:24Z Zipheir: amz3: Ah, OK.  Last I heard Guile had sort of put off R7RS adoption indefinitely.
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2019-05-03T22:32:17Z amz3: Zipheir: not me (I am not a guile maintainer)
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2019-05-04T10:06:02Z mdhughes: abdulocracy: I mostly use Atom to edit Scheme. I ended up setting the Racket syntax for my Chez and Chicken sources, because the []{} brakets confuse the standard Scheme syntax. Run the REPL in a separate terminal.
2019-05-04T10:09:23Z wasamasa: ._.
2019-05-04T10:09:44Z mdhughes: I'm not an emacs, but MIT Scheme's edwin isn't too bad, C-x C-e evaling snippets instead of a REPL is interesting.
2019-05-04T10:10:31Z wasamasa: yeah, it makes for a fast workflow
2019-05-04T10:10:50Z wasamasa: the only thing annoying there is that there's too much distance between code and where the evalution result shows up
2019-05-04T10:11:09Z wasamasa: but for that one can use an extension like eros which shows it directly after point with an overlay
2019-05-04T10:11:50Z wasamasa: some people prefer sending things over to a repl in an extra window for that reason :D
2019-05-04T10:11:53Z mdhughes: If you're writing "literate" style, the result comments are right below the code. Which can be messy, but you clean it all up later.
2019-05-04T10:12:03Z wasamasa: right, but who does that
2019-05-04T10:12:16Z wasamasa: aside from knuth and ipython notebook users
2019-05-04T10:12:25Z wasamasa: neither of which write scheme
2019-05-04T10:12:54Z mdhughes: And Julia notebooks, etc. It's a smart way to develop, you just shouldn't be publishing that mess.
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2019-05-04T10:22:04Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-05-04T10:46:29Z edgar-rft: rudybot: great song
2019-05-04T10:46:30Z rudybot: edgar-rft: The great thing about the sex pistols is they only have on song, just different lyrics.
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2019-05-04T14:14:44Z amz3: rudybot: la la la
2019-05-04T14:14:44Z rudybot: amz3: strategy games, open-ended sandboxes a la minecraft, etc.
2019-05-04T14:22:13Z reis_r: hello
2019-05-04T14:22:16Z reis_r: whats up
2019-05-04T14:25:08Z dTal: kylie, right?
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2019-05-04T20:07:00Z ArthurAGleckler: privmsg jcowan Hi, John.  Are you there?
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2019-05-04T20:08:32Z ArthurAGleckler: privmsg jcowan This is my first time using privmsg, so I'm not sure whether I'm using it correctly.
2019-05-04T20:08:39Z rain1: its public
2019-05-04T20:08:45Z rain1: you need to use /privmsg
2019-05-04T20:08:54Z ArthurAGleckler: That's funny.
2019-05-04T20:08:56Z ArthurAGleckler: Thanks.
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2019-05-04T20:55:31Z dTal: did that legit just happen
2019-05-04T21:01:26Z moldybits: lol
2019-05-04T21:03:27Z jcowan: damn, he dropped out
2019-05-04T21:03:34Z jcowan: for me at last, private messages are /msg
2019-05-04T21:16:20Z Zipheir: Would type-dispatch object (à la comparators) be a useful addition to combinator formatting?  e.g. (show #f <object> <format-frob>) would dispatch formatting of <object> to the procedure bundled with <object>'s type predicate in <format-frob>.
2019-05-04T21:16:33Z Zipheir: *type-dispatch objects
2019-05-04T21:17:35Z Zipheir: Since IIUC SRFI-159 ‘show’ just uses display for objects that aren't formatters.
2019-05-04T21:19:03Z Zipheir: Eh, it should probably be a different formatting routine, say (show-type #f <obj> <formatter-frob>).
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2019-05-04T21:20:02Z aeth: jcowan: Do you still keep a list of SRFIs by popularity? And are there other useful filtering mechanisms?
2019-05-04T21:20:37Z jcowan: aeth: I don't maintain it, but Arthur sent me his list, which is much more complete and comprehensive.
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2019-05-04T21:25:48Z Riastradh: Hullo, it seems like I just missed Arthur.
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2019-05-04T21:34:41Z Riastradh: Zipheir: The SRFI 1 error check procedure goes into a loop under the premise that in a debugger you might return from the error with a substitute value.
2019-05-04T21:35:45Z Zipheir: Riastradh: Aha, thank you!
2019-05-04T21:35:57Z Zipheir: Riastradh: I've been puzzling over that one for a day or so.
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2019-05-05T10:21:46Z amz3: hey scheme :)
2019-05-05T10:27:56Z rain1: hi
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2019-05-05T10:40:59Z z0d: hey
2019-05-05T11:01:09Z amz3: It is already sunday here, yesterday I was fighting with delimited continuation which seems to trigger some weird behavior
2019-05-05T11:02:05Z amz3: here is it https://paste.gnome.org/pq6hal0s7
2019-05-05T11:02:13Z amz3: it is make-coroutine-generator
2019-05-05T11:02:16Z z0d: it's definitely Sunday here too
2019-05-05T11:02:55Z rain1: im feeling a sunday too
2019-05-05T11:03:02Z amz3: I am wondering whether this is legit use of delimited continuation in particular prompt since I see very bizare stuff in the test suite
2019-05-05T11:03:29Z rain1: test suite?
2019-05-05T11:04:38Z amz3: a bug appears in (scheme mapping) test suite.
2019-05-05T11:04:58Z amz3: I could not create a unit tests for the bug.
2019-05-05T11:05:09Z amz3: I rely on scheme mapping tests to try to debug
2019-05-05T11:05:31Z amz3: is there a difference between prompt and shift+reset?
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2019-05-05T11:09:10Z rain1: is this in racket
2019-05-05T11:09:19Z amz3: it is in guile
2019-05-05T11:12:28Z rain1: hmm
2019-05-05T11:12:50Z rain1: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Prompt-Primitives.html  its really not clear at all what call-with-prompt does
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2019-05-05T14:42:39Z z0d: so, we have SRFI-1 for using strings as keys in alists, so I can do (assoc key alist string-ci=?), but how can I modify such entry case insensitively? assoc-set! uses 'equal?'
2019-05-05T14:45:33Z amz3: alist-delete?
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2019-05-05T14:49:04Z z0d: I'll use that if there's no out-of-the-box "modify-or-add"
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2019-05-05T15:09:14Z dTal_: ooh, Kate is extensible in javascript - paredit might be possible
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2019-05-05T15:10:33Z dTal: it already has "send to terminal" but it doesn't seem to quite work for evaluating even single lines of scheme, for reasons I haven't gotten around to debugging
2019-05-05T15:12:03Z dTal: it already has rainbow parens, basic scheme syntax highlighting, and lisp-style indentation rules, so with those two additions it will make a very acceptable scheme editor
2019-05-05T15:13:49Z dTal: it's already the nicest thing I've found so far
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2019-05-05T15:30:24Z jcowan: z0d: Generally speaking, mutating alists is a bad use of them: hash tables are your friend.  The advantage of alists is that they are persistent: you cons new key-value pairs on the front, leaving existing mappings shadowed but still available.
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2019-05-05T15:39:50Z z0d: jcowan: what I need is indeed a hash table, but I can't conveniently serialize it, so I thought I'd stick to an alist
2019-05-05T15:40:00Z z0d: which I can just 'write'
2019-05-05T15:40:42Z jcowan: Mmm.  You could compose hash-table->alist with write for that purpose.
2019-05-05T15:41:44Z z0d: right, thanks
2019-05-05T15:42:19Z z0d: is there a prodecure like string-split, where I can specify the maximum number of splits?
2019-05-05T15:42:25Z z0d: I can't find one
2019-05-05T15:43:15Z z0d: so (string-split "foo bar baz" #\space 2) => ("foo" "bar baz")
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2019-05-05T15:48:42Z mdhughes: z0d: Whenever I serialize hash-tables, I make two helper functions that first do alist->hash-table or h-t->a on all needed fields. Ugly workaround.
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2019-05-05T16:08:24Z amz3: meh, I just figured that the order of tuples returned by nstore-from is not "predictable" even if determinst (see https://git.io/fjnXB)
2019-05-05T16:13:09Z amz3: it depends on the actual index that used to bind the pattern.
2019-05-05T16:13:49Z amz3: that being said, it possible to workaround it. Being able to build indices directly in the triple store would have been more elegant.
2019-05-05T16:26:54Z dTal: z0d: string-split in srfi-152 seems to have what you want
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2019-05-05T16:32:09Z dTal: okay so I want to implement some very simple data types and it feels like I've opened a bit of a can of worms
2019-05-05T16:35:10Z dTal: I just want simple things like "point" being a tuple of x and y - CSUG (chez) says I should use define-record for that, but it doesn't appear to be standard? And define-record-type possibly is, and may or may not have the same syntax?
2019-05-05T16:35:50Z z0d: dTal: thanks
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2019-05-05T16:40:36Z dTal: TSPL
2019-05-05T16:41:44Z dTal: ahem. TSPL's define-record-type disagrees with srfi-9's define-record-type and is almost identical to Chez's define-record, except it wants the fields wrapped in (fields)
2019-05-05T16:42:08Z z0d: it's not in Guile, but I can lift it. it only needs 2 other procedures
2019-05-05T16:42:20Z dTal: Chez's define-record seems to match Chicken's define-record, despite it not being standard
2019-05-05T16:42:32Z dTal: so my question is - what the heck should I use?
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2019-05-05T16:47:12Z dTal: it looks like Gambit has the same system as Chez's and Chicken's define-record, but it calls it define-structure
2019-05-05T16:56:03Z amz3: z0d: I use srfi-9
2019-05-05T16:57:55Z amz3: dTal: ^
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2019-05-05T17:28:10Z Riastradh: z0d: Beware naive serialization of hash tables: if you don't ensure the result is sorted, it can lead to nondeterministic results including hard-to-reproduce bugs, and sometimes even to leakage of secrets.
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2019-05-05T17:31:11Z dTal: amz3: how come?
2019-05-05T17:33:02Z amz3: dTal: if you use guile I recommend (srfi srfi-9) module
2019-05-05T17:33:13Z dTal: ah, I'm using Chez
2019-05-05T17:33:47Z dTal: My preferences run speed, idiomatic, portable in that order
2019-05-05T17:35:52Z z0d: sounds like C ;-)
2019-05-05T17:35:52Z amz3: I am not sure using Chez. The fastest I think are sealed structures.
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2019-05-05T17:44:43Z dTal: z0d: I meant "idiomatic" to mean a combination of expressive and unsurprising - C fails more often than not in that regard :)
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2019-05-05T23:23:04Z mazeto: what is the function that converts a fraction into a whole number?
2019-05-05T23:23:42Z mazeto: I knew the name of the function, but right now I just can't remember. Google searches are failing miserably on me.
2019-05-05T23:25:25Z Riastradh: To which whole number?  There are various options: round, floor, ceiling, truncate.
2019-05-05T23:26:06Z mazeto: all these functions return 1.0 when given 1.23.
2019-05-05T23:26:19Z mazeto: I want (f 1.23) -> 1;
2019-05-05T23:26:28Z Riastradh: Not all of them!
2019-05-05T23:27:02Z mazeto: all of them return 1.0 in chicken scheme.
2019-05-05T23:27:06Z Riastradh: If you want to drop the inexactness marker, then you can use inexact->exact on the result, once you have chosen which integer you want.
2019-05-05T23:27:16Z Riastradh: mazeto: If that is so, then Chicken is broken!
2019-05-05T23:27:35Z mazeto: :/
2019-05-05T23:27:48Z Riastradh: Did you try all four of them, or try fewer than four and extrapolate?
2019-05-05T23:27:51Z mazeto: There is such a function, I just can't remember its name.
2019-05-05T23:28:08Z mazeto: I just tried them all.
2019-05-05T23:28:19Z Riastradh: If (ceiling 1.23) returns 1.0, then it sounds broken to me.
2019-05-05T23:28:24Z Riastradh: (`inexact->exact' may have been renamed to just `exact' more recently.)
2019-05-05T23:28:45Z Riastradh: (MIT Scheme has round->exact, truncate->exact, &c., but this is not standard and I don't know if anyone else does it that way.)
2019-05-05T23:29:46Z mazeto: chicken doesn't have these functions.
2019-05-05T23:30:11Z mazeto: (ceiling 1.23) -> 1.0 is technically not wrong.
2019-05-05T23:30:31Z Riastradh: Does inputting 1.23 cause 1.23 to be output?
2019-05-05T23:30:39Z mazeto: yes.
2019-05-05T23:30:47Z Riastradh: Then (ceiling 1.23) is quite technically wrong!
2019-05-05T23:31:23Z Riastradh: I mean (ceiling 1.23) -> 1.0, that is.
2019-05-05T23:31:44Z mazeto: no, (ceiling 1.23) -> 2.0 in chicken scheme.
2019-05-05T23:31:54Z Riastradh: Sounds better.
2019-05-05T23:36:39Z mazeto: Chez scheme has flonum->fixnum. It does the job, but it is unavailable in chicken scheme. :/
2019-05-05T23:38:45Z mazeto: (inexact->exact 1.23) returns an error.
2019-05-05T23:39:57Z mazeto: dammit. (inexact->exact (truncate 1.23)) -> 1.
2019-05-05T23:40:14Z mazeto: Anyways, thanks Riastradh.
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2019-05-06T01:28:57Z dTal: damn, I made all my types explicit with define-record-type instead of just using lists everywhere, and now my program is quite a bit slower
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2019-05-06T01:30:06Z dTal: (I also started passing around a bunch of floats instead of mostly exact ints, maybe that didn't help)
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2019-05-06T01:34:59Z gwatt: I certainly wouldn't expect using record types over lists to be slow
2019-05-06T01:36:13Z dTal: well, maybe it's any of a number of other things I'm doing - I'll have to put together a principled benchmark I guess
2019-05-06T01:36:44Z dTal: just disappointing to spend a long time refactoring and have it be slower, even if it is cleaner
2019-05-06T01:37:23Z gwatt: haha, that's fair
2019-05-06T01:39:46Z aeth: I suspect it's the floats
2019-05-06T01:40:26Z dTal: I stopped treating "colors" as ints 0-255 and started treating them as floats 0-1
2019-05-06T01:41:15Z aeth: doubles?
2019-05-06T01:41:38Z dTal: just inexacts, I don't know how to specify
2019-05-06T01:42:06Z dTal: actually I'd welcome feedback, performance or stylistic or otherwise, if anyone's interested
2019-05-06T01:42:07Z aeth: So what happened, if a typical Scheme is like a typical Common Lisp, is that you took fixnums and turned them into boxed double floats, which allocate onto the heap because their type tag cannot fit into even a 64-bit word alongside the data.
2019-05-06T01:42:11Z dTal: http://paste.debian.net/1081640/
2019-05-06T01:43:39Z dTal: hm, doubles would be excessive
2019-05-06T01:44:41Z Riastradh: Nearly every Scheme system uses IEEE 754 binary64 (`double-precision') arithmetic for inexact reals.  (There are exceptions -- e.g., I think Racket supports binary32 and _maybe_ some platform-dependent long double -- but mostly that's what you get.)
2019-05-06T01:45:51Z dTal: to be honest it would even be fine if it used 16 bit fixed point
2019-05-06T01:48:02Z dTal: thanks for the hints, that would certainly do it
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2019-05-06T03:13:00Z liangchao: Good morning/night
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2019-05-06T03:15:44Z Zipheir: o/
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2019-05-06T04:01:22Z mdhughes: Records are internally just vectors with a type in element 0, so they'll usually be faster for random access than lists.
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2019-05-06T05:02:14Z ecraven: dTal: also, for 64 bit float immediates, see nan-boxing
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2019-05-06T12:53:56Z dTal: Grumble. The first time I ever want to use a macro, and it needs to be unhygienic.
2019-05-06T12:58:59Z dTal: What I would like is to define (defshape body) such that it turns into (lambda (pt) (let ((x (point-x pt)) (y (point-y pt))) body)), conveniently binding 'x' and 'y' every time.
2019-05-06T12:59:43Z rain1: you could do it like this (let-shape ((x y) pt) body ...)\
2019-05-06T13:00:13Z rain1: or something like that  (with-shape pt (x y) body ...)
2019-05-06T13:02:12Z dTal: Sorry, I don't quite follow. Where are the accessors for pt?
2019-05-06T13:11:03Z rain1: (define-syntax with-shape
2019-05-06T13:11:05Z amz3: I like (call-with-shape shape (lambda (x y) body ...))
2019-05-06T13:11:07Z rain1:   (syntax-rules ()
2019-05-06T13:11:11Z rain1:     ((with-shape pt (x y) body ...)
2019-05-06T13:11:33Z rain1:     (let ((x (point-x pt)) (y (point-y pt))) body ...)))
2019-05-06T13:11:49Z amz3: +1
2019-05-06T13:12:16Z rain1: yea call-with-shape is a bit cleaner actually
2019-05-06T13:13:57Z dTal: Perhaps we're at cross purposes? The point was to make x and y special, so you don't have to type x and y and pt with every definition.
2019-05-06T13:14:49Z amz3: unhygienic code is difficult to follow e.g. you can not grep
2019-05-06T13:14:50Z dTal: The syntax I want is eg (define circle (defshape (sqrt (expt x 2) (expt x 2))))
2019-05-06T13:16:02Z dTal: Well, let me make that mistake in my little toy project then :)  As it stands I have a ton of  (lambda (pt) (let ((x (point-x pt)) (y (point-y pt))) which is ugly, and also make playing in the repl high-friction
2019-05-06T13:16:15Z dTal: I was under the impression that this was the kind of thing that macros were for.
2019-05-06T13:17:18Z rain1: dTal: you were unhappy about the macro being unhygenic so i was showing an alternative
2019-05-06T13:17:25Z rain1: it is possible to do it unhygenic with x and y special too
2019-05-06T13:17:55Z rain1: in that case you use syntax-rules (x y)
2019-05-06T13:18:00Z dTal: Ah, we were at cross purposes :D No, I was complaining because I thought unhygienic macros weren't possible for Scheme
2019-05-06T13:18:15Z rain1: ok!
2019-05-06T13:18:15Z dTal: I don't really know what I'm doing, this is all learning for me
2019-05-06T13:19:03Z dTal: I don't mind the lack of hygiene in this instance because the meaning of x and y are clear, you shouldn't be redefining them anyway
2019-05-06T13:24:35Z rain1: (syntax-rules (x y) ((with-shape pt body ...)
2019-05-06T13:24:38Z rain1: macro like this can use x and y
2019-05-06T13:24:53Z dTal: I'm missing something. I did (define-syntax defshape (syntax-rules (x y) ((defshape exp) (lambda (pt) ...
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2019-05-06T13:25:18Z dTal: but when I try to use it eg ((defshape x) (make-point 0 0)) I still get "variable x not bound"
2019-05-06T13:26:07Z rain1: paste your whole code ?
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2019-05-06T13:27:46Z dTal: Okay, this is the background, but it's mostly irrelevant - all you really need is the (define-record-type point (fields x y)) http://paste.debian.net/1081640
2019-05-06T13:28:06Z rain1: oh sorry i mean just the whole of the define-syntax part
2019-05-06T13:28:14Z dTal: (define-syntax defshape (syntax-rules (x y) ((defshape exp) (lambda (pt) (let ((x (point-x pt)) (y (point-y pt))) exp)))))
2019-05-06T13:28:47Z rain1: hmm this looks correct to me, i think this would work
2019-05-06T13:28:58Z rain1: i must be wrong though
2019-05-06T13:31:12Z rain1: ok yeah the symbols you put in (x y) are only special symbols for the pattern
2019-05-06T13:31:29Z rain1: but the pattern doesn't use x and y, so that's why they aren't i nscope
2019-05-06T13:31:36Z rain1: so we need to use something other than syntax-rules to define this macro
2019-05-06T13:31:46Z dTal: syntax-case?
2019-05-06T13:31:51Z rain1: yeah that could do it
2019-05-06T13:32:05Z dTal: Are there alternatives? It looks ugly
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2019-05-06T14:11:42Z gwatt: Not in Chez
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2019-05-06T14:17:09Z dTal: thanks gwatt
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2019-05-07T00:28:07Z dTal: awesome: https://gist.github.com/yuhr/bba4de4b34db940dcfba2b756f6cbc32
2019-05-07T00:28:21Z dTal: (macro (defshape body) `(lambda (pt) (let ((x (point-x pt)) (y (point-y pt))) ,body)))
2019-05-07T00:28:32Z dTal: ((defshape x) (make-point 0 0)) => 0
2019-05-07T00:28:38Z dTal: epic win
2019-05-07T00:29:30Z dTal: although I think I will not call it defshape
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2019-05-07T03:14:21Z dTal: this higher-order function stuff is really mind-melting
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2019-05-07T03:17:47Z dTal: I mean it's amazing how well it works for abstraction, I can do (show (sdf ((circle (+ 3 (sin (* 5 (atan x y))))) pt))) and get a starfish shape
2019-05-07T03:18:22Z dTal: it's just weird to think it's making a new instance of (circle) every single pixel
2019-05-07T03:23:13Z dTal: I have no clue how I'd write this program in C
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2019-05-07T03:44:40Z pjb: dTal: you'd be lost in memory management.
2019-05-07T03:45:45Z pjb: dTal: but if you use boehmgc (link with -lgc) and therefore forget about free, you can easily write it almost the same.  The only thing that's missing are the closures, but you can do them with a struct and an additionnal parameter.
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2019-05-07T07:47:07Z wasamasa: dTal: more efficiently I suppose
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2019-05-07T10:41:27Z dTal: Is there a word for this:
2019-05-07T10:41:30Z dTal: (macro (meta fun) `(lambda instances (lambda (argtype) (apply ,fun (map (lambda (instance) (instance argtype)) instances)))))
2019-05-07T10:42:11Z dTal: It takes a function that combines two values, and returns a function that combines two functions that return those values
2019-05-07T10:42:27Z dTal: as in, (define union (meta min))
2019-05-07T10:44:03Z wasamasa: juxt
2019-05-07T10:45:20Z dTal: wow, I can't find that at all on google
2019-05-07T10:45:27Z wasamasa: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/juxt
2019-05-07T10:45:40Z dTal: that's hugely impressive you can just rattle that off by the way
2019-05-07T10:46:07Z wasamasa: well, I'm not sure whether it's the same thing
2019-05-07T10:46:11Z wasamasa: but it sure sounds similar
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2019-05-07T10:48:36Z dTal: hm, I don't *think* it's the same thing but maybe I'm just not enlightened enough yet
2019-05-07T10:49:54Z dTal: the thing I said converts a function from operating on values, to operating on functions
2019-05-07T10:50:18Z wasamasa: maybe look at haskell then
2019-05-07T10:50:31Z wasamasa: they do this kind of thing all the time
2019-05-07T10:51:13Z wasamasa: juxt solves the pattern of applying multiple functions on the same argument and collecting the results of each application
2019-05-07T10:54:06Z dTal: yeah not *quite* the same but related
2019-05-07T10:54:19Z dTal: it does make me think you could do this without a macro though
2019-05-07T11:19:02Z dTal: apparently in Haskell it's called liftA2  / liftA3 / liftA4 etc for functions of that respective arity
2019-05-07T11:25:22Z dTal: except Haskell's lift functions are (naturally) vastly more general in ways I don't understand
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2019-05-07T15:41:01Z siraben: dTal: heh some people are proposing to make the liftA* functions more general
2019-05-07T15:41:05Z siraben: In Haskell
2019-05-07T15:42:43Z siraben: You mentioned liftA4 but that doesn't exist in Control.Applicative
2019-05-07T15:42:53Z siraben: So that's why they want to make it general I guess
2019-05-07T15:42:58Z siraben: I think with templates?
2019-05-07T15:43:05Z siraben: Sort of like macros
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2019-05-07T15:52:19Z amz3: how can I unaccent a char in r7rs?
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2019-05-07T15:55:20Z amz3: or if you prefer asciify a string
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2019-05-07T16:15:33Z amz3: nvm I will bind iconv
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2019-05-07T16:18:54Z amz3: there is a SRFI for interfacing with C https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-50/
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2019-05-07T21:09:17Z amz3: I made a tiny search engine using srfi-168, check out https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/guile-gotofish
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2019-05-07T23:43:13Z dTal: amz3: wow neat!
2019-05-07T23:43:32Z dTal: could use a brief explanation
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2019-05-08T06:15:49Z ecraven: say I'm playing around with an http server.. all data I get is in bytevectors. so now I'll need to "parse" these bytevectors, as I cannot just convert to strings (no possible correct encoding).. do we have any srfi or library for functions to do this sort of processing?
2019-05-08T06:15:56Z ecraven: things like srfi 1 has, but for bytevectors?
2019-05-08T06:16:02Z ecraven: bytevector-prefix? and so on
2019-05-08T06:16:36Z ecraven: these are the days when I wish scheme was polymorphic and every function in srfi-1 just worked for every sequence type :-/
2019-05-08T06:18:34Z wasamasa: amz3: huh, didn't think someone actually did a FFI SRFI
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2019-05-08T09:44:52Z dTal: ecraven: I am reminded of http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2015/01/if-scheme-were-like-scheme.html
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2019-05-08T09:46:01Z dTal: of course you can easily make functions polymorphic with type predicates, but I've shied away from that in my own code because I fear the performance penalty
2019-05-08T09:46:20Z dTal: which is a bit silly, because in theory static analysis could optimize those checks away
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2019-05-08T09:49:07Z ecraven: dTal: same here, however as no actual compiler *does* that optimization, you (and I) will still have to live with it for now :-/
2019-05-08T09:52:43Z dTal: are you sure? not even Chez?
2019-05-08T09:52:59Z dTal: or Stalin?
2019-05-08T09:58:42Z ecraven: I'm confident chez doesn't. stalin, I have no idea ;)
2019-05-08T09:59:09Z ecraven: the problem is, for things like polymorphic inline caches, you probably need explicit compiler support
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2019-05-08T10:51:28Z amz3: dTal: tx for the encouragement for my search engine, here is a brief explanation http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/2019-05/msg00024.html
2019-05-08T10:52:21Z amz3: dTal: this is very naive implementation, it just to get going I have another implementation but that doesn't rely on SRFI 168 that does support boolean keyword search and tf-idf. I will port that code to SRFI 168
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2019-05-08T10:59:58Z rc-05: (help)
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2019-05-08T11:08:02Z amz3: rudybot: la la la
2019-05-08T11:08:02Z rudybot: amz3: it's installed (and I should mention I've never used \(La\)?TeX myself)
2019-05-08T11:19:35Z gwatt: ecraven: you could probably assume utf8 at least to start out
2019-05-08T11:20:00Z ecraven: gwatt: no, you can't, you'll get non-utf8 octets that raise errors when converting
2019-05-08T11:22:26Z gwatt: what encoding are they?
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2019-05-08T11:23:12Z ecraven: whatever, the point is, the http library must find the header, and all the body parts, without actually converting the entire payload to a string
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2019-05-08T12:04:15Z amz3: why some scheme code does define a procedure to return a constant?
2019-05-08T12:06:57Z pjb: amz3: there's no defconstant in scheme.
2019-05-08T12:06:57Z pjb:  
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2019-05-08T12:07:35Z pjb: (define foo 42) (set! foo 33) is always allowed.  It's true also of function bindings, but at least  (set! foo 33) (foo) would give an error.
2019-05-08T12:08:11Z amz3: ah!
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2019-05-08T12:27:21Z z0d: but then you'll need to do (foo) instead of just 'foo'
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2019-05-08T12:35:45Z siraben: Is Stalin still actively maintained?
2019-05-08T12:36:05Z ecraven: I don't think so
2019-05-08T12:36:08Z amz3: I don't think so
2019-05-08T12:36:24Z amz3: x)
2019-05-08T12:38:34Z z0d: it's still R4RS, right?
2019-05-08T12:38:54Z ecraven: it's not full R4RS, I think
2019-05-08T12:42:34Z siraben: Someone should fork it and make Lenin
2019-05-08T12:42:52Z ecraven: I've heard the code is hard to understand ;)
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2019-05-08T12:49:58Z amz3: siraben: :D
2019-05-08T12:53:55Z siraben: Time to reread Marx's specification
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2019-05-08T14:21:37Z amz3: getting together r7rs for guile (even partial) is very useful.
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2019-05-08T15:37:13Z dTal: is it possible to obtain faster and less precise floating point numbers in scheme?
2019-05-08T15:37:49Z dTal: For my application, I only need at best 16 bit accuracy, but I'm paying for 64 bit accuracy.
2019-05-08T15:45:55Z Duns_Scrotus: does your machine even support 16 bit floats
2019-05-08T15:47:51Z amz3: dTal: using lenin *ahem* stalin, maybe...  I know there those kinds of tricks.
2019-05-08T15:50:52Z dTal: it certainly supports single precision, which as I understand will fit in a stack frame which will make a big difference
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2019-05-08T16:53:50Z ecraven: I think only 32 and 64 bits are widely supported
2019-05-08T16:54:02Z ecraven: I don't think there ever were 16 bit floats on x86?
2019-05-08T16:54:36Z ecraven: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-precision_floating-point_format
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2019-05-08T16:55:03Z ecraven: seems some GPUs support it?
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2019-05-08T17:09:16Z gwatt: dTal: assuming you're still using chez, if all of your operations are on floating point numbers, the "fl" prefix operators may give you a bit of a speed boost: fl+ fl* fl- fl/ etc
2019-05-08T17:10:00Z dTal: Interesting, thanks. How?
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2019-05-08T17:10:54Z gwatt: the normal arithmetic operators have to test their operands and then pick the specialized operator from there, possibly with conversions if types are being mixed
2019-05-08T17:11:20Z dTal: Of course. Just like we were discussing earlier with polymorphic functions in general.
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2019-05-08T17:13:19Z ecraven: hm.. constructing nested ** to structures via the ffi is not actually fun :-/
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2019-05-08T17:33:58Z uplime: Hello! I'm in the process of writing a lisp that gets compiled to bytecode. I'm having some trouble with how I should serialize arguments however. In the following example: https://clbin.com/39C4a there is no issue. n just becomes 1, and replace any instance of n with positional parameter 1. For nested lambdas, I can see a few problems arising from that, such as variable shadowing. Does someone have a better
2019-05-08T17:34:00Z uplime: idea for how to serialize function arguments?
2019-05-08T17:34:25Z uplime: asked this in #compilers but was told some of the folks in here might have some better insight
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2019-05-08T17:37:01Z rain1: go away you nasty fuck
2019-05-08T17:37:38Z gwatt: ???
2019-05-08T17:37:57Z rain1: this person is disgusting
2019-05-08T17:38:12Z uplime: no clue what they're talking about
2019-05-08T17:38:35Z rain1: talking about you
2019-05-08T17:40:00Z ober: his use of unhygenic modules is very disgusting
2019-05-08T17:40:50Z uplime: D: haven't had a nice warm sanatizer in weeks
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2019-05-08T17:45:13Z gwatt: I'm confused
2019-05-08T17:45:35Z uplime: me too, I'm just looking for help on designing a lisp
2019-05-08T17:46:01Z Zipheir: Yeah, none of this seems to warrant the above hostility.
2019-05-08T17:47:47Z rain1: this person is horribly toxic
2019-05-08T17:48:08Z rain1: is that hard to understand?
2019-05-08T17:48:38Z Zipheir: They're being polite at the moment.
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2019-05-08T17:48:54Z erkin: rain1: What did they do?
2019-05-08T17:48:55Z gwatt: uplime: I don't think shadowing is that much of a concern. You only need to know the position of the closest bound `n'
2019-05-08T17:51:21Z uplime: gwatt: maybe I'm overthinking the problem then. Lets say I have something silly like: (lambda (x y) (lambda (y z) (add3 x y z)), the env might map to {x: 1, y: 1, z: 2}
2019-05-08T17:53:09Z gwatt: How are you representing closures?
2019-05-08T17:53:29Z uplime: hm, I don't think I am actually
2019-05-08T17:54:12Z gwatt: Ok, that's the important thing about your example just now
2019-05-08T17:54:29Z uplime: yeah, you're right. I didn't really consider it, but it seems like it would solve this problem
2019-05-08T17:54:46Z uplime: Thanks, I'll do some more reading about implementing those
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2019-05-08T17:56:12Z amz3: what is a good introduction to generics?
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2019-05-08T17:59:24Z gwatt: amz3: what kind of generics? c++ templates, java generics, hindley-milner parameterized types?
2019-05-08T18:00:20Z amz3: the one that is refered to in this thread https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/scheme-reports-wg2/rP4y2uTmw2Y
2019-05-08T18:00:45Z ober: wow expletives in privmsgs even. can we please remove this toxic person, rain1?
2019-05-08T18:01:59Z gwatt: ober: you got expletives from rain1?
2019-05-08T18:02:27Z gwatt: I think ultimately I just got ignored
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2019-05-08T18:02:45Z ober: aye
2019-05-08T18:02:51Z amz3: gwatt: no, why?
2019-05-08T18:03:45Z gwatt: amz3: no, I meant by rain1.
2019-05-08T18:03:56Z amz3: ah
2019-05-08T18:04:15Z amz3: gwatt: I am thinking about scheme generics
2019-05-08T18:04:39Z amz3: the scheme wg2 is leading toward a standardization of those, I would like to know what it is
2019-05-08T18:08:58Z gwatt: amz3: well, I can't help you there
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2019-05-08T18:26:29Z Zipheir: I like the SRFI-128/typeclass approach to generics, personally.
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2019-05-08T18:32:41Z Zipheir: If I have a class/abstract type fooable, I just define a comparator-style bundle that does method dispatch on anything that implements fooable, eg. (foo-bind <bundle> x) calls the appropriate -bind procedure for x, as contained in <bundle>.
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2019-05-08T18:33:50Z Zipheir: It's then easy to extend fooable with new instances.
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2019-05-08T18:49:04Z amz3: I look it up
2019-05-08T18:49:16Z amz3: I +will+ look it up
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2019-05-08T19:43:37Z And1am0: !help
2019-05-08T19:44:26Z amz3: ?
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2019-05-08T19:46:29Z And1am0: need someone experienced in the industry of security penetration testing. I'm in to one hell of a project and after my completion everyone who contributed for our success will get benefits a lovely ones !
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2019-05-08T19:47:01Z amz3:  /kickban
2019-05-08T19:47:02Z And1am0: I need assistance with pen-testing two platforms both of em payment processors
2019-05-08T19:47:06Z And1am0: thank u
2019-05-08T19:47:09Z amz3: wrong chan
2019-05-08T19:47:38Z And1am0: can u tip me where I could find assistance which will meet my needs?
2019-05-08T19:47:46Z And1am0: thank you very much
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2019-05-08T19:48:57Z amz3: /dev/null
2019-05-08T19:51:06Z Zipheir: /dev/urandom
2019-05-08T19:53:08Z weinholt: it sounds like a job for larceny or racket
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2019-05-08T19:55:12Z And1am0: @weinhoit it only looks a like but it's way different from the way you see it.
2019-05-08T19:55:14Z And1am0: :D
2019-05-08T19:55:33Z amz3: And1am0: how is it related to scheme programming language?
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2019-05-08T19:55:57Z And1am0: Im just willing to join "mind-power" with more adequate persons who could teach me up on something new
2019-05-08T19:56:00Z And1am0: d'tsit
2019-05-08T19:56:11Z And1am0: it isn't
2019-05-08T19:56:23Z And1am0: im just answering weinholt's comment
2019-05-08T19:56:23Z And1am0: xD
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2019-05-08T19:57:33Z X-Scale: And1am0: you denounced yourself by using twitterese on IRC
2019-05-08T19:58:11Z Zipheir: Maybe Ponzi scheme would be relevant...
2019-05-08T20:01:08Z Zipheir: http://catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/script-kiddie.html
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2019-05-08T20:49:58Z amz3: is it the security penetration apocalypse already?
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2019-05-08T21:18:05Z dTal: was that "I have a great idea for an app, I just need someone to program it" but for illegal hacking?
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2019-05-08T21:43:32Z amz3: seems like amz3
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2019-05-08T22:47:53Z pjb: dTal: you missed the "you will work for free" part.
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2019-05-08T23:22:16Z dTal: oh no, that's all part of it. Once "we" make the millions you'll be rich! Promise!
2019-05-08T23:22:29Z pjb: Right. :-)
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2019-05-08T23:48:06Z jcowan: Look ahead for \r\n\r\n (but accept \n\n as well) in the bytecode, convert everything before that to a string.
2019-05-08T23:53:02Z dTal: Is there any difference between nested (define)s and (letrec)? Is there a reason to prefer one over the other?
2019-05-08T23:54:08Z pjb: I don't know any difference.  I hate nested defines, because the scope doesn't match the parentheses.
2019-05-08T23:55:51Z dTal: Yes. Although that's also true of top level defines.
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2019-05-09T00:03:29Z Riastradh: dTal: In the R5RS, internal definitions and LETREC are equivalent.  In subsequent revisions, internal definitions correspond to LETREC*, which is subtly different in ways that don't matter for programs not deliberately trying to exploit the difference.
2019-05-09T00:10:08Z dTal: I suppose it would be very surprising for nested defines not to be bound sequentially.
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2019-05-09T16:21:25Z dTal: Is there a word for this combinator? (define (pre-apply tf) (lambda (shape) (lambda (pt) (shape (tf pt)))))
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2019-05-09T16:24:09Z dTal: It takes a function f and returns a combinator that, when applied to another function, returns that function but with f applied to its argument
2019-05-09T16:24:46Z rain1: i suppose it's reverse-compose
2019-05-09T16:25:03Z rain1: function composition with the arguments swapped
2019-05-09T16:27:14Z dTal: m
2019-05-09T16:27:16Z dTal: hm
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2019-05-09T16:34:26Z dTal: hm maybe "thrush combinator"
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2019-05-09T17:12:19Z gwatt: I think that's just normal function composition
2019-05-09T17:14:26Z gwatt: No, I guess it is reverse composition
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2019-05-09T17:20:15Z dTal: But "reverse composition" is something like ->
2019-05-09T17:20:26Z dTal: this is one level higher
2019-05-09T17:20:52Z dTal: in that it returns a combinator, not the composed functions
2019-05-09T17:21:04Z gwatt: True
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2019-05-09T17:22:30Z dTal: this is by far the most educational little project I've ever embarked on
2019-05-09T17:22:45Z gwatt: curried composition?
2019-05-09T17:23:28Z dTal: or curried reverse composition, yes
2019-05-09T17:23:34Z dTal: not sure
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2019-05-09T17:25:02Z dTal: the further down this road I go, the more my code looks like Forth :p
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2019-05-09T21:48:00Z TCZ: "Are you wondering whether arbitrary nesting is the correct way to think about this problem? If so, develop a data definition that allows only three levels of nesting and then use it." is this passive aggressive
2019-05-09T21:48:50Z TCZ: its like saying "you little faggot you think we are wrong so do it your stupid way"
2019-05-09T21:49:03Z TCZ: (its from htdp)
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2019-05-09T21:52:11Z Zipheir: rudybot: Help, the textbook judged me!
2019-05-09T21:52:12Z rudybot: Zipheir: as in Ashford v. Thornton, the last case judged by wager of battle in England in 1818
2019-05-09T21:52:38Z TCZ: xD
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2019-05-09T22:01:03Z ChoHag: Ah there it is.
2019-05-09T22:04:24Z ChoHag: I am learning scheme and have contrived myself a problem, but it's more of a mailing-list type problem than an IRC-type problem. Where can I ask it?
2019-05-09T22:04:57Z gnomon: ChoHag, I mean, you're here now  :D
2019-05-09T22:05:36Z ChoHag: Well this then: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/584416
2019-05-09T22:05:41Z gnomon: ChoHag, more seriously, I don't know of a general Scheme mailing list that might be appropriate for that kind of question.  Not to say that there aren't any, mind you.
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2019-05-09T22:06:53Z ChoHag: That took a whole three mouse clicks more than just sending an email...
2019-05-09T22:07:07Z ChoHag: I thought this was all about minimalism?
2019-05-09T22:07:11Z gnomon: ChoHag, interesting - trying to build a skip list?
2019-05-09T22:07:21Z ChoHag: I have no idea what a skip list is.
2019-05-09T22:08:13Z gnomon: I'm resisting the temptation to toss you some links about that data structure.  It's a nice one.  Right, so: I think I've got a pretty firm handle on your goal here.  What kind of state is your solution in at the moment?
2019-05-09T22:09:55Z ChoHag: I would very much like to receive some copy pasta that I can study the fuck out of.
2019-05-09T22:10:10Z ChoHag: (the goal here is learning, not solving some homework question or other crap)
2019-05-09T22:10:25Z ChoHag: But that said, I'm not sure I know how to answer your question.
2019-05-09T22:10:56Z gnomon: fair ball
2019-05-09T22:12:01Z ChoHag: The idea is that somethine else will follow along all the t2s but occasionally a t2 may tell it to jump to an alternative t1.
2019-05-09T22:12:07Z gnomon: I was hoping you might have a couple of example list definitions and then a procedure definition or two that attempted to transform your input list(s) into the output format in your original post.  I was hoping that you might be able to share those examples in a similar way to your original question.
2019-05-09T22:12:13Z Zipheir: ChoHag: What are you trying to do with this structure?
2019-05-09T22:12:32Z ChoHag: Since the t2 are inhenerently sequential they should be stored that way but I still need the t1 jump points.
2019-05-09T22:12:45Z ChoHag: Zipheir: Build an assembler.
2019-05-09T22:12:52Z gnomon: Oh!
2019-05-09T22:13:11Z Zipheir: ChoHag: Can you be more specific?
2019-05-09T22:13:29Z TCZ: so i need 6 functions for this definition of 3 level nesting https://pastebin.com/XqpDTr1s
2019-05-09T22:13:49Z ChoHag: gnomon: I decided after way-too-many-years that I should finally read the foundational text of the industry I've been working in for my entire life and then Got Some Funny Ideas.
2019-05-09T22:14:01Z ChoHag: SICP.
2019-05-09T22:14:07Z ChoHag: I'm seeing where they lead.
2019-05-09T22:14:20Z Zipheir: Good choice.
2019-05-09T22:15:10Z ChoHag: I don't like the assemble function that SICP defines in chapter 4 because the labels it keeps track of are, in effect, external state.
2019-05-09T22:16:02Z TCZ: most important thing in programming is design recipe xd
2019-05-09T22:16:23Z ChoHag: I think the data structure I've just-about defined in the link above is more appropriate, and deliciously JIT, if I only knew how to produce it.
2019-05-09T22:16:24Z Zipheir: ChoHag: You could use a monad.
2019-05-09T22:16:34Z gnomon: ChoHag, if you're looking for some interesting assembler-specific copypasta to read through, are you aware of Sassy?  http://sassy.sourceforge.net
2019-05-09T22:17:21Z ChoHag: Maybe. Assember's not so interesting in and of itself.
2019-05-09T22:17:29Z gnomon: agreed
2019-05-09T22:17:47Z gnomon: But it's an interesting place to start specifically because it is so simple.
2019-05-09T22:18:05Z ChoHag: I mean it's fascinating considering what you can do with it, but it's basically a glorified addition function.
2019-05-09T22:18:34Z ChoHag: Yeah I did. I've reached the level of lisp.
2019-05-09T22:19:58Z ChoHag: The description of a register machine in SICP is quite helpful (although, I feel, more useful to me than it would be to a novice) and I only started reading that because I'd figured out as much of assembly as I was interested in figuring out.
2019-05-09T22:20:36Z ChoHag: Frankly, it's fucking boring.
2019-05-09T22:21:00Z ChoHag: I know that for every basic function I need there's going to be 100s of lines of assembly and that, more importantly, somebody else has already written them.
2019-05-09T22:21:01Z Zipheir: ChoHag: The way I interpret what you're doing is stripping out the t1 values (labels) and using them as pointers into the t1 (instruction) list.
2019-05-09T22:21:19Z ChoHag: Zipheir: That's exactly what I'm doing.
2019-05-09T22:21:36Z Zipheir: ChoHag: That seems to be some C-like think, to be honest.
2019-05-09T22:21:42Z ChoHag: Something in my understanding of recursion is broken because I can't work out how to do it.
2019-05-09T22:21:44Z Zipheir: *thinking
2019-05-09T22:22:22Z ChoHag: No that's a defeatist attitude.
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2019-05-09T22:23:39Z ChoHag: This will be figured out.
2019-05-09T22:24:05Z ChoHag: I'll do it in bloody perl if I have to.
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2019-05-09T22:24:58Z Zipheir: I think it's just a matter of finding the right approach, and a structure to fit it.
2019-05-09T22:25:09Z Zipheir: Pointers into lists suck, though.
2019-05-09T22:25:32Z ChoHag: Yes. The diagram readily indicates the "you're not going to like this".
2019-05-09T22:25:41Z ChoHag: Two links to the same cell?
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2019-05-09T22:26:01Z ChoHag: But it's definitely the Right structure.
2019-05-09T22:26:24Z ChoHag: So I have to produce it and god damn it the computer's going to bloody produce it for me because that's it's job.
2019-05-09T22:26:43Z ChoHag: Even if I have to use perl.
2019-05-09T22:26:51Z Zipheir: Just build a list of record structures associating each label with the sublist of the instruction list it applies to.
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2019-05-09T22:27:58Z ChoHag: If I'd started fiddling around with scheme more than a week or so ago I might even understand what some of those terms mean.
2019-05-09T22:28:36Z ChoHag: I mean I do, but I'm sure scheme has "specialised" a few definitions.
2019-05-09T22:28:50Z ChoHag: Is a record a row in a table in an RDBMS?
2019-05-09T22:29:09Z Zipheir: No, it's just a composite data structure.  SICP does them with lists.
2019-05-09T22:29:16Z ChoHag: Quite.
2019-05-09T22:29:29Z ChoHag is not good with nouns.
2019-05-09T22:30:34Z Zipheir: If each record has the slots (<label-name> <list> <num-instructions>), you can build a list of those on top of your instruction list.  It's almost the structure you have in mind.
2019-05-09T22:31:28Z ChoHag: The important point is, does that ultimately result in (t1+t2) -> (t2)?
2019-05-09T22:32:00Z ChoHag: I don't like words like "just" and "almost".
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2019-05-09T22:32:34Z ChoHag: I'm a sensitive millenial and they trigger me.
2019-05-09T22:32:42Z ChoHag: Or something.
2019-05-09T22:32:49Z TCZ: u noob
2019-05-09T22:33:00Z Zipheir: It results in a list of label-records and a list of instructions, and the former can be used to index the latter.  Which is the whole point, I think.
2019-05-09T22:33:09Z Zipheir: I'm going to hack something up, one sec.
2019-05-09T22:33:52Z ChoHag: Zipheir: My main concern is that the naive implementation results in each t1 being given its own unique copy of its set of t2s.
2019-05-09T22:34:14Z ChoHag: Obviously the t2s should be a single stream and the t1s point into it.
2019-05-09T22:34:39Z ChoHag: The the t1 can be treated as a structure that can be searched with (assoc).
2019-05-09T22:35:05Z ChoHag: And friends.
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2019-05-09T22:36:14Z ChoHag: So if t2 points to c d and t1 points to a b then t2, t1 should in fact effectively point to a b c d but the c and d should be the _same_ c and d in each case.
2019-05-09T22:36:23Z ChoHag: ie. No memory wastage and no cows.
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2019-05-09T22:36:26Z rudybot: la la la
2019-05-09T22:36:29Z Zipheir: Au contraire.  Objects in scheme are pointers, so there's nothing wrong with having lots of references to them if need be.
2019-05-09T22:37:05Z ChoHag: Zipheir: Well that's ultimately what I'm trying to figure out, I guess.
2019-05-09T22:37:17Z ChoHag: I understand pointers in C's relm.
2019-05-09T22:37:22Z ChoHag: realm
2019-05-09T22:37:40Z ChoHag: In lisp and its variants they're a bit of a mystery.
2019-05-09T22:37:54Z pjb: ChoHag: there's no pointer in lisp.
2019-05-09T22:38:12Z ChoHag: Unfortunately C's everything refers to actual physical things in a cpu/ram/core whereas lisp is .... different.
2019-05-09T22:38:34Z ChoHag: So I've a bit of a bridge to cross.
2019-05-09T22:39:08Z pjb: ChoHag: in lisp, we have objects. Some objects are mutables and some are immutable (eg. 42 is always 42, you cannot mutate it into 33 or anything.  On the other hand, a string "foo" can be mutated to contain "abc").
2019-05-09T22:39:29Z ChoHag: pjb: Right. I totally get that.
2019-05-09T22:39:52Z ChoHag: The problem is, that's entirely abstract; the CPU is doing whatever the fuck it's doing.
2019-05-09T22:40:03Z pjb: ChoHag: so at a high level, in lisp we have references to the objects, and those references are passed by value.  This can be implemented in C as pointers to the object, and pass-by-value of C.
2019-05-09T22:40:15Z ChoHag: I understand the C-based languages because they translate fairly directly into actual CPU opcode.
2019-05-09T22:40:41Z pjb: ChoHag: however, for immutable objects, it wouldn't make any difference if we kept the object itself instead of the reference, and if we copied it, since we couldn't mutate them, we wouldn't see anything.
2019-05-09T22:40:54Z pjb: ChoHag: this is what happens with small integers and characters.
2019-05-09T22:40:59Z ChoHag: Stay with that subject and give me a few more lines to grok when I come back from this cigarette.
2019-05-09T22:41:02Z ChoHag: Please.
2019-05-09T22:41:55Z pjb: ChoHag: and this is a good thing when those objects are smaller than a reference (it would be wasteful to use a 64-bit pointer to point to a 16-bit fixnum or a 21-bit unicode).
2019-05-09T22:43:40Z aeth: ChoHag: It's actually simpler than you think. Everything is probably (no guarantee that it's implemented this way) allocated onto the heap with a type tag, unless it fits in a word (including the tag, so double-floats are normally heap-allocated)
2019-05-09T22:44:12Z aeth: Of course, the low level details are just hunches like this qualified with a lot of "maybe"s because to specify them means that future optimizations would be impossible.
2019-05-09T22:44:21Z pjb: ChoHag: the last thing is that in lisp, the type is associated to the objects, not the place where they're stored.  A lisp variable can hold any lisp object.  This can be implemented by using type tags, where the set of possible bit patterns for the lisp values is discriminated by the tag.  For some types of lisp object, the type tag can be stored in the reference.
2019-05-09T22:45:27Z pjb: (and for some more complex types, such as vector of T, etc, the full type description is stored in the object itself, but the reference would still have a partial type tag indicating that it's a vector so we know where to find the rest of the type information).
2019-05-09T22:46:56Z Zipheir: It's even simpler if you're not mutating anything.  Everything is a value.
2019-05-09T22:47:29Z dTal: seems like there's quite a tension in Scheme between the desire to provide pure, platform-independent numeric types, and the need to specify types for high-performance code
2019-05-09T22:47:45Z pjb: It's not simplier because you still have to distinguish values smaller than a reference for which you prefer to copy the value, and values bigger than a reference for which you will prefer to copy the reference.
2019-05-09T22:48:03Z Zipheir: pjb: That's an implementation detail.
2019-05-09T22:48:13Z pjb: Zipheir: on the contrary, having immutable value is a complexification, but we do it to optimize space and time.
2019-05-09T22:48:27Z aeth: Zipheir: That's an implementation detail that's like 90% of optimizing.
2019-05-09T22:48:45Z pjb: Definitively. It's quite simple at the higher level, I wrote it: in lisp, there are no pointers, only lisp objects.
2019-05-09T22:48:54Z aeth: Zipheir: e.g. have a bunch of double floats? uh oh, 64 bits so they won't fit with a tag and they're all heap allocated... unless you can put them in an array of double floats, assuming your Lisp supports that
2019-05-09T22:48:57Z Zipheir: pjb: No, it's a massive simplification.  Immutable values are vastly easier to reason about.
2019-05-09T22:49:27Z pjb: It's not a simplification when you still have to keep the other way.
2019-05-09T22:49:32Z Zipheir: aeth: Sure, but I don't care.  This should really be the compiler's job, although of course we aren't there yet.
2019-05-09T22:49:58Z pjb: What's a simplification is when you can treat everything the same way.  This you can do by using references for everything.  It's wastful, but it's simplier.
2019-05-09T22:50:28Z aeth: Zipheir: You can't be there without complete program analysis, and even then some things won't work. So this is dynamic typing vs. dynamically interacting with the environment at conflict. Some Schemes give up the latter. High performance CL usually gives up the former, with type declarations in numeric code.
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2019-05-09T22:52:03Z Zipheir: aeth: Fair enough.  I only meant to make a point to ChoHag that, in the absence of mutation and optimization issues, 'everything is a value' simplifies things drastically.
2019-05-09T22:52:30Z Zipheir: In fact, this is a major point of the first half of SICP.  It's only when assignment is introduced does the model become complex.
2019-05-09T22:53:11Z gnomon: "Unfortunately C's everything refers to actual physical things in a CPU/RAM/core" - that's not really true, hasn't been for a very long time; now's a good time to banish that belief because it'll get you into trouble as soon as you start to rely on it.  cf. https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479
2019-05-09T22:53:37Z Zipheir: Definitely.
2019-05-09T22:54:30Z aeth: gnomon: Hence "because to specify [the low level details] means that future optimizations would be impossible."
2019-05-09T22:54:42Z aeth: gnomon: Of course, that article shows that it's not impossible, it's just really hard
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2019-05-09T22:57:01Z Zipheir: This is why everyone needs to go back and read SICP regularly.  Because people forget to reason about computation and instead assume their job is to poke a machine until it does something almost right.
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2019-05-09T22:59:52Z aeth: Zipheir: Anyway, you'll never take my mutations away from me!
2019-05-09T23:00:33Z ChoHag: Oh god there's talking. Do you know how drunk I am? This is going to take ages to catch up.
2019-05-09T23:00:35Z Zipheir: Hah
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2019-05-09T23:01:03Z ChoHag: I thought this was one of those idle channels where nobody usually said anything.
2019-05-09T23:01:25Z aeth: ChoHag: that's #idlerpg
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2019-05-09T23:01:55Z ChoHag: ffs
2019-05-09T23:04:18Z Zipheir: ChoHag: The point of all that mishigas was to explain to you how simple things are.  I hope you are convinced.
2019-05-09T23:04:59Z ChoHag: pjb: Thankyou very much but I think I'm going to have to read that a dozen more times.
2019-05-09T23:05:23Z aeth: things are so simple that here's 10,000 words to read...
2019-05-09T23:05:26Z ChoHag: Zipheir: That's exactly the problem. Th
2019-05-09T23:05:46Z ChoHag: I know for a fact that things - all the things - are simple.
2019-05-09T23:05:55Z ChoHag: That's what makes it so difficult.
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2019-05-09T23:08:11Z ChoHag: In my head I understand it all.
2019-05-09T23:08:19Z ChoHag: My fingers disagree.
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2019-05-09T23:09:38Z Zipheir: That's alcohol for you.
2019-05-09T23:09:52Z ChoHag: Well yes that doesn't help.
2019-05-09T23:09:52Z aeth: I guess one way of seeing it is that almost everything is some pointer *foo it's just that sometimes that can be optimized away, like with the pointer to the constant value 42, since there isn't much point continuously following a pointer there.
2019-05-09T23:10:11Z ChoHag: I mean it helps, in ways that matter, but it's not a great companion to logic.
2019-05-09T23:11:44Z aeth: My analogy only really breaks down when you have e.g. arrays of double-floats
2019-05-09T23:12:56Z ChoHag: aeth: The thing is I'm coming from a place where a function call is "save registers on stack and jump with saved return pointer" so I'm coming from *below* a place where pass-by-value-or-pass-by-reference has any particular meaning.
2019-05-09T23:13:08Z aeth: You'd think that that's a pointer to a struct with a type and length tag followed by the contents of an array of (tagged) double float pointers, but that can be optimized away and it can look in memory like [TAGSTUFF, double, double, double, double, ...] without having to tag each double
2019-05-09T23:14:04Z aeth: ChoHag: that's good because e.g. multiple return values are afaik required in Scheme, and are required in Common Lisp
2019-05-09T23:14:04Z ChoHag: But at the same time I'm trying to figure out what scheme does in specific circumstances while also not knowing the difference between a scheme implementation and a scheme specification.
2019-05-09T23:14:45Z ChoHag: ie.
2019-05-09T23:14:54Z aeth: ChoHag: The low level is intentionally underspecified to leave room for future optimization techniques, but there are some typical approaches like type tags.
2019-05-09T23:14:57Z ChoHag: ie. specification is abstract while implementation is concrete.
2019-05-09T23:15:17Z Zipheir: ChoHag: If you're reading SICP, it doesn't matter.  You've got a simplified model of computation that establishes rules of evaluation and that's all you need to know.
2019-05-09T23:15:29Z ChoHag: Zipheir: SICP is more of a helper text.
2019-05-09T23:15:43Z ChoHag: I'm playing with ideas and using that to provide them.
2019-05-09T23:16:09Z Zipheir: ChoHag: OK.  What's one thing that's confusing, then?
2019-05-09T23:16:35Z ChoHag: To be honest, right now, the fact that I've had far too much to drink and/or smoke.
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2019-05-09T23:16:56Z aeth: ChoHag: Even though Scheme is a simpler language than CL in terms of quantity of specification, Scheme has a few features that complicate a straightforward implementation, especially call/cc
2019-05-09T23:17:07Z Zipheir: aeth: You're not helping :)
2019-05-09T23:17:10Z ChoHag: I'd love to talk about this more but I don't know scheme well enough to bullshit about it while I'm high so I'll have to continue the serious discussion tomorrow.
2019-05-09T23:17:16Z aeth: In CL, a lot of stuff is just contained gotos called GO in TAGBODYs jumping to labels
2019-05-09T23:17:29Z aeth: Scheme has... a more interesting model.
2019-05-09T23:17:53Z Zipheir: ChoHag: Yeah, come back when you feel better.
2019-05-09T23:17:53Z aeth: Tail recursion and continuations.
2019-05-09T23:18:13Z ChoHag: But I'm happy to hang around and talk shit for a while. If anyone here can remember the problem I posed tomrorow then I'll continue talking about the specifics.
2019-05-09T23:18:42Z ChoHag: I'll try not to be too annoying.
2019-05-09T23:19:40Z Zipheir: aeth: Does the CL hyperspec have a formal semantics?
2019-05-09T23:19:56Z aeth: Zipheir: I don't know
2019-05-09T23:20:04Z Zipheir: Hmm, interesting.
2019-05-09T23:20:17Z aeth: ChoHag: Scheme doesn't necessarily have "save registers on the stack and jump with saved return pointer"
2019-05-09T23:20:32Z ChoHag: aeth: Well that's the problem, really.
2019-05-09T23:20:39Z Zipheir: It doesn't at all.
2019-05-09T23:20:45Z ChoHag: Scheme may not but the computer it's running on certainly does.
2019-05-09T23:20:50Z aeth: Zipheir: That's not true, either
2019-05-09T23:21:13Z aeth: Zipheir: What you said is true if call/cc is implemented in the most straightforward way
2019-05-09T23:21:14Z ChoHag: Somehow in my brain I need to bridge the two.
2019-05-09T23:21:53Z aeth: ChoHag: The implementation of tail recursion and continuations dominates the design considerations behind any Scheme implementation.
2019-05-09T23:22:28Z Zipheir: Scheme may be _implemented_ using <technique>, but the language is the language.
2019-05-09T23:22:45Z ChoHag: Which basically boils down to goto vs. gosub.
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2019-05-09T23:23:14Z ChoHag: Zipheir: I think that's basically my poiny of confusion.
2019-05-09T23:23:19Z ChoHag: point
2019-05-09T23:23:43Z Zipheir: Question: What language is Scheme implemented in?
2019-05-09T23:24:01Z aeth: Answer: JavaScript
2019-05-09T23:24:15Z ChoHag: I [think I] know scheme in basic terms, and I [think I] know CPUs in basic terms. Somehow each branch of knowledge is at odds with the other.
2019-05-09T23:24:16Z Zipheir: Actually, English.
2019-05-09T23:24:23Z Zipheir: I'm just being annoying now, sorry.
2019-05-09T23:25:05Z ChoHag: aeth: Javscript is always the question, and the question is why?
2019-05-09T23:25:13Z ChoHag: Sometimes: Dear god why?
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2019-05-09T23:25:23Z Zipheir: zing!
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2019-05-09T23:26:33Z ChoHag: Both the author of netscape and the creator of javascript have apologised for it on record.
2019-05-09T23:26:33Z aeth: Scheme is one of those languages that would be more at home on a different kind of computer architecture
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2019-05-09T23:26:46Z Zipheir: ChoHag: If you know a bit of C, this might provide some enlightenment: http://peter.michaux.ca/articles/scheme-from-scratch-introduction
2019-05-09T23:26:53Z Zipheir: ChoHag: It's a simple Scheme interpreter.
2019-05-09T23:26:55Z ChoHag: aeth: Yes!
2019-05-09T23:27:02Z ChoHag: That's the sort of area I'm exploring.
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2019-05-09T23:27:22Z aeth: The most straightforward implementation of Scheme doesn't have a call stack
2019-05-09T23:27:27Z ChoHag: Except that I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.
2019-05-09T23:28:49Z Zipheir: The easiest way to understand Scheme is to understand the language and worry about implementation later.
2019-05-09T23:29:01Z ChoHag: Zipheir: I kind of can't.
2019-05-09T23:29:05Z Zipheir: Unless you're going straight to writing a compiler.
2019-05-09T23:29:26Z ChoHag: By design I'm a programmer but by trade I'm a sysadmin.
2019-05-09T23:29:38Z ChoHag: I simply have to work on the basis of how things actually happen.
2019-05-09T23:30:11Z Zipheir: ChoHag: If you really read SICP, you can break that pattern of thinking.
2019-05-09T23:30:11Z ChoHag: It's a failing of mine for sure - I can only work in the real world.
2019-05-09T23:30:22Z Zipheir: Hah, false modesty.
2019-05-09T23:30:53Z ChoHag: Seriously, though, that's the bridge I'm trying to cross.
2019-05-09T23:31:03Z Zipheir: Yeah, read SICP, especially the early too-easy-seeming chapters.
2019-05-09T23:31:40Z ChoHag: I understand conceptual programming very well and I understand concrete/Real programming very well. I can't join the two together and I'm trying to use lisp/scheme to do it.
2019-05-09T23:33:20Z Zipheir: I'm not sure I know the difference between "conceptual programming" and "real programming", but it sort of makes sense.
2019-05-09T23:33:25Z ChoHag: I fear that the result of the dichotomy is the reason I genereally write things in perl, so I'd like to fix this.
2019-05-09T23:33:39Z ChoHag: Zipheir: Yeah nor am I.
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2019-05-09T23:34:20Z ChoHag: The capital R is important.
2019-05-09T23:35:38Z ChoHag: Think of it as the distinction between theoretical and applied mathematics. I like to pretend I know the applied stuff but when it comes right down to it I'm an engineer.
2019-05-09T23:37:34Z Zipheir: There is the big divide in the CS world between computation and implementation, I guess you might say.
2019-05-09T23:38:02Z Zipheir: Like talking about Scheme--The Language vs. Scheme--The Set Of Many Implementations.
2019-05-09T23:38:13Z ChoHag: I'd say rather that CS is entirely on one side of the divide.
2019-05-09T23:38:36Z Zipheir: The dichotomies recurse.
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2019-05-09T23:38:45Z ChoHag: Like, I understand and study computer science but I'm not a computer scientist.
2019-05-09T23:39:35Z ChoHag: The CS informs my computer engineering, which in my case is primarily as a sysadmin with a strong hint of programmer.
2019-05-09T23:40:08Z ChoHag: CS is far more concerned with abstract concepts than are able to make me money.
2019-05-09T23:40:40Z Zipheir: Right, there's a huge financial aspect to this.
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2019-05-09T23:41:03Z ChoHag: I do rather like being able to eat.
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2019-05-09T23:42:51Z Zipheir: Fundamentally, the extremes are (a) designing computations that could run on any machines or no machines and (b) getting the machine in front of you to do what you or your employer wants.
2019-05-09T23:43:20Z ChoHag: I can't even remember why I came in here but it's been great chatting.
2019-05-09T23:43:34Z Zipheir: The authors of SICP say "Computer Science is not about computers", but obviously that's hard to swallow for many.
2019-05-09T23:43:39Z Zipheir: Hah, yeah.
2019-05-09T23:43:40Z ChoHag: I'll be back tomorrow because this thing's been bugging me for days.
2019-05-09T23:43:44Z aeth: Zipheir: eh, reality is in between the two
2019-05-09T23:43:49Z ChoHag: But goodnight. I'm done.
2019-05-09T23:44:00Z Zipheir: aeth: Extremes!  As in limiting cases!
2019-05-09T23:44:04Z aeth: Zipheir: You have to interact with "real hardware" but ideally you abstract it and modularize it to "contain the damage" so to speak
2019-05-09T23:44:08Z Zipheir: ChoHag: 'night
2019-05-09T23:44:13Z aeth: good night
2019-05-09T23:46:55Z Zipheir: aeth: If we're just talking about implementing programs, yes.  If we're talking about CS as a whole, no.  Djikstra, for one, did a lot of work with pen and paper.
2019-05-09T23:47:07Z ChoHag: Zipheir: No that's right. Computer science is about maths.
2019-05-09T23:47:32Z ChoHag: Programming is not computer science, it merely uses its results.
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2019-05-09T23:49:12Z Zipheir: If you're writing algorithms in a formal language, you're programming *and* doing CS.  And, Curry-Howard-wise, proving things.
2019-05-09T23:49:30Z ChoHag: Most people who call themselves developers don't even know the difference.
2019-05-09T23:50:03Z ChoHag: My approach to algorithms is mostly "hope someone else has already written it".[1~
2019-05-09T23:50:37Z Zipheir: It really is the same thing, in the sense that their is a well-known correspondance between writing a program and proving a theorem.
2019-05-09T23:50:44Z Zipheir: s/their/there/
2019-05-09T23:50:44Z ChoHag: Anyway bed. It's far too late for me to be talking to actual live humans. God knows what I'll say.
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2019-05-09T23:57:37Z aeth: Zipheir: it definitely depends on what you're doing
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2019-05-09T23:58:14Z aeth: Zipheir: but for 99.99% of people implementing someone else's algorithm is a better idea than discovering new ones
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2019-05-09T23:58:58Z Zipheir: aeth: 99.99% of programmers, I assume you mean.
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2019-05-10T00:00:26Z Zipheir: Telling computer scientists to never implement their own algorithm is sort of like telling scientists to never come up with hypotheses.
2019-05-10T00:02:35Z Zipheir: It's interesting how confusing all of this is.  People have a lot of different ideas about the meanings of CS/programming/software engineering/whatever, it seems.
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2019-05-10T00:08:28Z aeth: Zipheir: well, yes, the 0.01% are probably computer scientists
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2019-05-10T00:13:57Z Zipheir: aeth: Sshh, you'll stir up an Occupy CS movement.
2019-05-10T00:15:08Z aeth: The % is only going to get lower over time
2019-05-10T00:15:39Z aeth: I definitely wouldn't be surprised if well under 0.01% of the programmers control more than 90% of the algorithms
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2019-05-10T00:20:04Z Zipheir: Death to the big-O fatcats!
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2019-05-10T01:56:07Z pjb: aeth: indeed, few programmers design algorithms.  Most "programmers" are just copy-pasters and users of libraries.
2019-05-10T01:56:38Z adhoc: pjb: both are valid techniues
2019-05-10T01:56:57Z pjb: but conflating the roles might not be a good idea.
2019-05-10T01:57:22Z adhoc: thatas why i use the terms programmer and developer
2019-05-10T01:57:28Z adhoc: both write code
2019-05-10T01:58:11Z adhoc: in one you need to think ahead of writing code, the other afterwards
2019-05-10T02:07:44Z dTal: Unless your library has a function doWhatIMean(), you still have to write algorithms
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2019-05-10T02:08:03Z dTal: it's just a question of how complicated they are, and how big your building blocks are
2019-05-10T02:09:12Z dTal: unless of course you are straightforwardly implementing a research paper in a language that helpfully has all the mathematical primitives used in the paper - then I concede you aren't writing any algorithms at all
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2019-05-10T02:14:19Z adhoc: designing algorithms is also another issue ;
2019-05-10T02:14:21Z adhoc: ;)
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2019-05-10T02:18:03Z Zipheir: The difference between an "algorithm" and a "program" is just a matter of generality.
2019-05-10T02:24:53Z adhoc: indeed, understanding the problem in the fisrt instance is indeed a general skill =P
2019-05-10T02:25:55Z adhoc: also this isn't 1969 any more where folks thought a lot more before squeezing chads out of punch cards
2019-05-10T02:26:29Z adhoc: we have REPLs and spend a lot more idle time evaluating in our head after we have an incomplete idea
2019-05-10T02:27:45Z pjb: Well, actually there's a technical difference between an algorithm and a program: algorithm must terminate.  Most program must run all the time without ever temrinating.
2019-05-10T02:28:11Z adhoc: as a teacher, watching students struggle through the simplest of problems has required me to rethink about how you define tasks like program design
2019-05-10T02:28:25Z adhoc: even if you give them a complete algorithm ...
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2019-05-10T02:30:48Z Zipheir: pjb: That's not true.  There are plenty of non-terminating algorithms, or algorithms that fail to terminate on certain inputs.
2019-05-10T02:31:27Z adhoc: also arguing about technicalities is mostly irrelevant for most folks that want to learn enough to start learning by themselves
2019-05-10T02:31:39Z adhoc: that stuff comes much later, like if you
2019-05-10T02:32:37Z Zipheir: I like the classes that Simon Peyton Jones has been promoting in the UK, which apparently teach kids algorithms without computers.
2019-05-10T02:33:12Z Zipheir: Seems like a good way to bring home the basic abstraction of computing.
2019-05-10T02:33:30Z adhoc: Zipheir: interesting, link ?
2019-05-10T02:34:37Z Zipheir: adhoc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia55clAtdMs
2019-05-10T02:34:48Z Zipheir: It's a TED talk, thus to a very non-literate audience.
2019-05-10T02:38:38Z adhoc: sometimes talking to a smart but non-tech-literate groups is the best way for you to distill your ideas
2019-05-10T02:41:30Z dTal: they don't even have to be smart
2019-05-10T02:42:09Z dTal: or, for that matter, sentient - cats and rubber ducks are popular I believe
2019-05-10T02:42:55Z adhoc: dTal: indeed, my dog has developed a technique for looking alert, yet being asleep when I try to explain new things
2019-05-10T02:43:47Z dTal: you have a very polite dog
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2019-05-10T04:54:53Z siraben: On the subject of algorithm design, a method of multiplying integers in O(n log n) time was recently (March 2019) invented/found.
2019-05-10T04:56:07Z siraben: https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02070778/document
2019-05-10T04:56:34Z siraben: But these days any new algorithms with lower bounds only really beat their predecessors when n gets very large
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2019-05-10T12:27:48Z ChoHag: Somewhat annoyingly, the answer to my question was in a footnote in the SICP.
2019-05-10T12:28:19Z ChoHag: Almost verbatim.
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2019-05-10T14:04:51Z Riastradh: ChoHag: Footnotes are always the most fun part.  Everything else is just a long-winded shaggy dog setup for a good footnote.
2019-05-10T14:28:35Z ChoHag: That's Pratchett you're thinking of.
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2019-05-10T15:28:17Z pjb: That, or a nice demonstration in the margin.  You can start with that, ensure you have enough margin space, and then you fill in the book (or paper).
2019-05-10T15:31:08Z amz3: hmm
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2019-05-10T17:19:17Z amz3: While looking at some Python code, I figured that the r7rs looks more Pythonic that Python itself
2019-05-10T17:19:18Z amz3: x)
2019-05-10T17:24:07Z amz3: the following four lines make me think about python stuff:
2019-05-10T17:24:09Z amz3:   https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/guile-gotofish/tree/master/gotofish.scm#L988
2019-05-10T17:28:46Z amz3: rudybot: what is more Pythonic, Scheme or R7RS?
2019-05-10T17:28:54Z rudybot: amz3: While looking at some Python code, I figured that the r7rs looks more Pythonic that Python itself
2019-05-10T17:29:06Z amz3: x)
2019-05-10T17:30:54Z amz3: I got my joke wrong, one should read: what is more Pythonic, Python or R7RS?
2019-05-10T17:31:04Z amz3: anyway.
2019-05-10T17:32:52Z z0d: tbf, Python is Lisp in disguise
2019-05-10T17:33:37Z amz3: +1
2019-05-10T17:34:09Z amz3: I only know scheme, but it looks like scheme, except slow
2019-05-10T17:34:17Z z0d: hah
2019-05-10T17:34:19Z amz3: rudybot: what is more pythonic, Python or R7RS?
2019-05-10T17:34:19Z rudybot: amz3: While looking at some Python code, I figured that the r7rs looks more Pythonic that Python itself
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2019-05-10T18:05:22Z Zipheir: Python is a goofy hyperfriendly golden retriever who wants to please everyone, Lispers included.
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2019-05-10T18:08:05Z Zipheir: ... though said golden retriever isn't so good at the lambda-ing.
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2019-05-10T18:25:49Z z0d: yes, it's terrible
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2019-05-10T19:43:32Z dTal: You can't have that conversation without mentioning Hylang
2019-05-10T19:43:54Z wasamasa: you can though
2019-05-10T19:44:03Z wasamasa: hy is pretty much python in s-expressions
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2019-05-10T19:46:16Z Zipheir: Yeah, WP has this example: (defn salutationsnm [name] (print (+ "Hy " name "!")))
2019-05-10T19:46:19Z Zipheir: Eww.
2019-05-10T19:48:29Z aeth: Overloading + is ugly. Maybe not as ugly as in languages that coerce so "foo" + 42 is meaningful, but still ugly.
2019-05-10T19:49:26Z aeth: If the only common supertype for two types is T or Everything or Object or whatever, then the built-in probably shouldn't work on both types because the operation is probably entirely unrelated (with some exceptions, like printing).
2019-05-10T19:49:39Z wasamasa: I'm more bothered by the scoping still being shit
2019-05-10T19:49:42Z wasamasa: no let for you :D
2019-05-10T19:50:03Z Zipheir: wasamasa++.  Scope is the worst thing about Python, imo.
2019-05-10T19:50:13Z dTal: wasamasa: that's the point, if you really think Python is like Scheme go play with Hylang, and the difference will become obvious :)
2019-05-10T19:50:32Z wasamasa: the best part of it is that you can do macros
2019-05-10T19:50:42Z aeth: Does any non-lisp do scope properly? Lua is particularly entertaining because iirc you have to prefix every local variable with "local" so you make your code considerably more verbose to make it have sane(ish) scope
2019-05-10T19:51:08Z wasamasa: C :D
2019-05-10T19:51:48Z Zipheir: aeth: The ML family gets it right, usually.
2019-05-10T19:51:50Z gwatt: I think most languages scope properly.
2019-05-10T19:51:56Z dTal: Algol I believe
2019-05-10T19:52:03Z aeth: wasamasa: Oh, yes, C, the language of 200 line functions where all of the variable declarations are done at the top, including the variable "int i" you're looping with, perhaps several times
2019-05-10T19:52:14Z wasamasa: for 80ies C, sure
2019-05-10T19:52:22Z gwatt: aeth: nah, you just use c99 instead of c89
2019-05-10T19:52:42Z wasamasa: people forget you can add an extra scope by adding more braces
2019-05-10T19:52:56Z wasamasa: imagine if it worked that way in any popular scripting language
2019-05-10T19:52:57Z aeth: gwatt: depends on the project, any project can -Wdeclaration-after-statement
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2019-05-10T19:53:01Z dTal: I was about to say, it surprises me that you never see that in idiomatic C
2019-05-10T19:53:06Z dTal: it's actually a very neat feature
2019-05-10T19:53:33Z aeth: Agreed there.
2019-05-10T19:53:45Z aeth: It's close to LET
2019-05-10T19:53:51Z wasamasa: I see it occasionally, typically in code using short identifiers
2019-05-10T19:53:54Z Zipheir: Some compilers don't, or at least didn't, implement it correctly and just put the declaration at the top.
2019-05-10T19:54:53Z aeth: Zipheir: I agree that the ML family seems to do things correctly. Probably also the Pascal family and the "related to" languages in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Pascal_programming_language_family
2019-05-10T19:55:44Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-05-10T19:56:45Z aeth: I wonder how Erlang handles scope
2019-05-10T19:58:40Z ggole: Scope of type variables is messed up (a bit) in ML
2019-05-10T19:58:45Z ggole: Regular bindings are pretty sane though
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2019-05-10T20:10:42Z Zipheir: I can only imagine how unpleasantly surprising programming in a Lisp with only function-level scope (Hylang, I guess) would be.
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2019-05-10T20:24:22Z Zipheir: (Of course, you could say that Scheme only has "function scope", what with lambda being the "one thing to rule them all, one thing to define them".  But Scheme (a) has non-broken lambda and (b) isn't total crap.)
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2019-05-10T21:20:22Z ChoHag: Overloading + isn't ugly.
2019-05-10T21:20:41Z ChoHag: Abusing the addition operator to perform the unrelated concatenation operation is ugly.
2019-05-10T21:20:58Z ChoHag: Also I got my CPU emulator working.
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2019-05-11T00:08:42Z pjb: aeth: 200-line functions in C, you're happy! more line 2000 or way more!
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2019-05-11T00:25:09Z aeth: pjb: It's apparently called "inlined code": http://number-none.com/blow/blog/programming/2014/09/26/carmack-on-inlined-code.html
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2019-05-11T00:35:15Z pjb: aeth: not even.  Just C programmers cannot write functions as easily as in other programming languages, because passing parameters, and foremost getting results, present a higher barrier, when you have to manage memory and errors manually.
2019-05-11T00:36:03Z pjb: And error management is even worse a problem than memory management.
2019-05-11T00:40:37Z ChoHag: Rather, in C they are things that you have to actually do which any sensible language takes care of for you; many many people do not.
2019-05-11T00:43:12Z ChoHag: I rather like Larry Wall's interpretation of a C macro language which takes care of those things, for example.
2019-05-11T00:43:35Z ChoHag: (I am primarily a perl programmer)
2019-05-11T00:44:15Z Zipheir: But the C preprocessor is a horrible, horrible thing.
2019-05-11T00:44:19Z ChoHag: Yes.
2019-05-11T00:44:44Z ChoHag: Perl is a horrible, horrible thing because it has tamed it.
2019-05-11T00:45:19Z jcowan: Nothing about C prevents you from having a garbage collector (and there are such things), and noting about Scheme requires you to have a garbage collector (in Common Lisp you need one, but it doesn't have to actually collect any garbage).
2019-05-11T00:45:44Z jcowan: I found programming in C with libgc very enjoyable, actually.
2019-05-11T00:46:25Z ChoHag: C is a very nice language for its environment.
2019-05-11T00:52:31Z Zipheir: Even in a pure UNIX world, the level of abstraction in C is crummy.
2019-05-11T00:55:29Z pjb: Indeed, using a garbage collector in any sizeable C program is necessary. But again, this doesn't help much with error handling.
2019-05-11T00:55:30Z Zipheir: And of course it's a nightmare to try to catch all the random possible explosions in a C program.  Even Rob Pike admitted "C is a razor-sharp tool.  You can use it to create a highly efficient program or a bloody mess."
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2019-05-11T01:03:41Z ChoHag: The only thing C should have ever been used for was to make assembly vaguely portable.
2019-05-11T01:05:18Z Zipheir: Not really.  While often billed as 'portable assembly', C is very much a high-level language.
2019-05-11T01:06:14Z Zipheir: For example, C's procedure call semantics are a pain when trying to implement TCO.
2019-05-11T01:08:51Z Zipheir: It's quite an opinionated language.
2019-05-11T01:09:11Z ChoHag: C _now_ is (or, is treated as) a high level language.
2019-05-11T01:09:33Z ChoHag: That link I was given above telling me off about suggesting C deals with concrete objects was not news to me.
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2019-05-11T01:10:13Z ChoHag: The point is if pure library-less original K&R C had been treated as portable assembly from the beginning, it could have spawned some fantastic languages.
2019-05-11T01:10:16Z ChoHag: Instead we got C++.
2019-05-11T01:10:54Z ChoHag: In that scenario there's basically one C application: a bootstrapper which loads a sane high level language.
2019-05-11T01:11:53Z Zipheir: C's just not a very good assembly language.
2019-05-11T01:12:53Z Zipheir: But there's a long history of compiling other languages to C.  Check out CHICKEN, which is a prominent Scheme-to-C compiler.
2019-05-11T01:13:44Z Zipheir: (http://www.call-cc.org/)
2019-05-11T01:15:14Z ChoHag: Zipheir: Yes. It's not. But would you prefer to write assembly in C or in assembly?
2019-05-11T01:16:45Z Zipheir: It depends what I'm writing, of course.
2019-05-11T01:18:09Z aeth: the primary flaw of C, and its simplicity kind of demands it, is its array representation and its string representation
2019-05-11T01:18:56Z dTal: C strings are uneccesarily stupid
2019-05-11T01:18:57Z aeth: so a lot of functions are basically just "please don't lie to me about the array length by saying to go beyond its end"
2019-05-11T01:19:01Z Zipheir: Honestly, I think there are and always have been better imperative languages than C out there.  The combination of broken type system, pointer madness, and low abstraction make it pretty miserable to work with.
2019-05-11T01:19:16Z dTal: I don't know why we didn't ditch the standard string library years ago
2019-05-11T01:19:44Z aeth: You can write better C and especially better C++ it's just that as soon as you interact with the legacy everything breaks down
2019-05-11T01:19:47Z dTal: actually I do, it's because all of Unix is written in C and expects the dorky null terminated string
2019-05-11T01:21:07Z aeth: Well, that's simple, just have an implicit null at the end of every string. That makes substring stuff impossible unless it's the tail, but so do C strings.
2019-05-11T01:21:37Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, C doesn't actually have a string type!
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2019-05-11T01:24:00Z pjb: aeth: well, first you have to realize that arrays are not first class objects in C! and neither structures!
2019-05-11T01:24:31Z pjb: typedef int v3[3];   v3 a={1,2,3}; v3 b=a; doesn't work.
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2019-05-11T01:25:09Z Riastradh: That's a feature.  It lets you create a type that can't be naively copied.
2019-05-11T01:26:37Z pjb: languages with objects that are not first class objects are bad.
2019-05-11T01:26:57Z pjb: You cannot apply functional abstractions on them.
2019-05-11T01:27:07Z Riastradh: dogma is bad.
2019-05-11T01:27:25Z pjb: The result is the mess with pointers vs arrays in C…
2019-05-11T01:28:06Z aeth: pointers are fine but for a language whose entire point is pointers, C has some really awful pointer syntax for anything beyond the simplest & and *
2019-05-11T01:29:47Z Zipheir: *(the point of C) = Segmentation fault
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2019-05-11T02:08:33Z jcowan: Let's not forget what the alternative to NUL-terminated strings was, back in the day.  Strings whose first byte was a length.  So strings longer than 255 bytes were, in two words, im possible.
2019-05-11T02:12:28Z ChoHag: aeth: Not true. C *doesn't have* a string representation.
2019-05-11T02:13:04Z ChoHag: The common stdlibs pretend to.
2019-05-11T02:13:24Z ChoHag: Based on that nothing.
2019-05-11T02:14:36Z ChoHag: (Of course C-the-language is not C-the-reality so it all falls down but I like to believe)
2019-05-11T02:14:37Z fizzie: There's a definition for the word "string" in the standard, and a whole bunch of functions for operating on objects described by that definition. It may not have a "string type", but it's more than nothing.
2019-05-11T02:15:23Z ChoHag: Standardised-C-the-reality.
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2019-05-11T02:17:20Z ChoHag: It makes me sad. C has ints of various sizes and. in some implementations, floats. Pretending otherwise makes it look like a bad language.
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2019-05-11T02:18:53Z ChoHag: char type should have been called byte.
2019-05-11T02:19:14Z ChoHag: More than zero-terminated strings, that would have solved a whole host of problems,
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2019-05-11T02:20:13Z ChoHag: That way nobody would have ever thought C had a string type and would have invented scheme in order to do so.
2019-05-11T02:20:53Z ChoHag: Or perl.
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2019-05-11T04:01:19Z siraben: I like assembly and Forth for the low level stuff
2019-05-11T04:01:32Z siraben: C compilers for the Z80 give too much overhead
2019-05-11T04:02:42Z siraben: In some ways Forth is worse than C, but you can write Forth code that has obviously no bugs vs. C code that has no obvious bugs
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2019-05-11T04:18:36Z aeth: I don't think I've ever written a C program I was confident in. The problem is that defensive C adds so much boilerplate that it becomes 90% boilerplate in some functions with no proper way to abstract it away.
2019-05-11T04:19:14Z aeth: So now you (hopefully) avoid the 10 landmines you know about, but the cost is obscuring possible logic bugs.
2019-05-11T04:19:49Z aeth: If anything needs aspect-oriented programming, it's C
2019-05-11T04:20:31Z aeth: You can write C macros, but now you have two problems.
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2019-05-11T04:24:13Z aeth: And it doesn't help that C tends to encourage doing things like returning an int, and if the int is less than 0 then it's really an error code. So you could wind up doing something like: int foobar = foo(...); if(foobar < 0) { return status; }
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2019-05-11T04:24:44Z aeth: And then *every* function, even if it's 20 deep, winds up having to pass the negative numbers like that.
2019-05-11T04:24:56Z aeth: All the way up to main()
2019-05-11T04:25:07Z ChoHag: aeth: I see C's boilerplate as being the stuff that lispy languages handle for you but which the CPU nevertheless has to do.
2019-05-11T04:25:21Z ChoHag: Obviously that's painted with a bit of a broad stroak.
2019-05-11T04:27:13Z ChoHag: So if you do the boilerplate right in C you can get C right, and if you get C right and don't go all crazy and on on the abstract VM you can get the C->ASM right and if all the start align you can get a C which describes the architecture fairly well. Until you bring in libraries. Or reality.
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2019-05-11T04:27:46Z ChoHag: s/and on on/and gnu on/
2019-05-11T04:28:34Z ChoHag: Oh god another typo. Just pretend I can't type well because apparently I can't.
2019-05-11T04:30:15Z aeth: The thing is, if there's any place where I want real macros more than anything else, it's a low-level high-level programming language.
2019-05-11T04:30:53Z aeth: You don't use macros too often in normal Lisp because there's nowhere near as much boilerplate as you'd experience in something like C.
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2019-05-11T05:01:40Z siraben: GDB is very useful in helping to debug C code
2019-05-11T05:02:55Z ChoHag: Well this is in large part because C code needs to be debugged.
2019-05-11T05:03:57Z ChoHag: I can't count the number of developers I've worked with who didn't understand the concept that you should be able to fully understand code by reading it alone.
2019-05-11T05:04:16Z siraben: Fuzzing C programs that ask for user input and perform non-trivial parsing has reduced my confidence greatly
2019-05-11T05:04:27Z siraben: e.g. Lisp interpreters
2019-05-11T05:04:39Z ChoHag: siraben: Ah well that's a different problem.
2019-05-11T05:04:48Z ChoHag: May I introduce you to humans?
2019-05-11T05:04:50Z siraben: Maybe I just can't write recursive descent, heh
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2019-05-11T05:05:46Z siraben: The fuzzer likes to generate stuff like ```````````ü```````````````````###"""""''`` triggering the weirdest edge cases
2019-05-11T05:06:50Z siraben: It's supposedly a solved problem, writing parsers, just use lex + yacc but in practice a lot of buffer overflow attacks stem from hand-written parserse
2019-05-11T05:07:22Z siraben: Matt Might gave a good talk on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzsK8Am6dKU
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2019-05-11T07:38:33Z mrm: Pratt parsers are an underappreciated gem.
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2019-05-11T07:43:49Z mrm: I really need to write up something about them at some point. The original paper is really great, but there aren't any good resources that presents it in a functional context.
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2019-05-11T13:16:54Z lambdapanda: Hi! I've just learned about continuations and I'm wondering if call/cc and continuation passing style are commonly used in day to day programming. In other words, how concerned should I be if I don't up using them at all in my projects?
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2019-05-11T13:26:43Z rain1: it's very rare to use them
2019-05-11T13:26:56Z dwdv: lambdapanda: that's fine. But call/cc may make some algorithms just a tad nicer. Think nested for-each for example, call/cc allows you to emulate the return statement from other languages.
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2019-05-11T13:27:54Z lambdapanda: I see. For things like breaking from a loop, is call/cc the only mechanism I can use?
2019-05-11T13:29:20Z ggole: If you write the loop as a recursive function, you can just return from it normally.
2019-05-11T13:31:26Z lambdapanda: But generally speaking, what is the equivalent of 'break' in scheme?
2019-05-11T13:33:27Z mdhughes: Also if you're using a do loop, you can set a break variable and test for that in your conditions.
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2019-05-11T14:25:35Z notnotdan: lambdapanda: i think there is no direct equivalent IIRC, but you can implement it with continuations
2019-05-11T14:26:55Z lambdapanda: Yeah looks like that's the case. I was just curious
2019-05-11T14:27:00Z lambdapanda: Thanks!
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2019-05-11T19:07:30Z jcowan: If you write loops as named-let, then the next thing inside the named-let is a conditional; some arms recurse, some don't.  But there is no fully *general* break except call/cc.
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2019-05-11T22:42:58Z dTal: you can put multiple forms in the body of a lambda without (begin)? How have I missed this?
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2019-05-11T22:47:55Z Zipheir: :)
2019-05-11T22:52:46Z Zipheir: Usually people miss these things by not reading the language report.
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2019-05-11T23:00:36Z dTal: well yeah. Who has time for that :p
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2019-05-11T23:02:59Z Zipheir: Yeah, reading 88 pages takes forever.
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2019-05-11T23:11:58Z jcowan: dTal: You rarely need to unless you (a) have embedded defines, or (b) are evaluating for side effects.
2019-05-11T23:12:36Z dTal: Right.
2019-05-11T23:13:02Z dTal: I'm reading through https://github.com/dharmatech/box2d-lite/blob/master/demos/varying-friction.sps
2019-05-11T23:13:38Z dTal: Currently the most interesting thing about it is the pervasive use of object dot notation
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2019-05-11T23:29:18Z Zipheir: i.e. dotted pairs?
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2019-05-11T23:41:44Z dTal: no, record accessors
2019-05-11T23:42:07Z dTal: like v1.x
2019-05-11T23:42:44Z dTal: it seems to come from define-record-type++ in dharmalab/records/define-record-type.sls
2019-05-11T23:43:15Z Zipheir: Ah, ok.
2019-05-11T23:43:16Z dTal: but I can't make it work in my own code just by importing that library and using define-record-type++, so there's more to it
2019-05-11T23:43:40Z Zipheir: Somewhat unSchemely.
2019-05-11T23:44:10Z dTal: Also immensely readable and practical
2019-05-11T23:45:13Z dTal: it's fine to have the verbose, s-expression-based notation for every single concept, so that you can easily transform and generate code with macros
2019-05-11T23:45:21Z Zipheir: Eh.  It also hides the fact that it's really just a function application.
2019-05-11T23:45:30Z dTal: but for actual programming work, a little syntax helps a lot
2019-05-11T23:46:10Z Zipheir: To each their own, of course.
2019-05-11T23:46:21Z dTal: it might not even be a function application after the compiler's done with it
2019-05-11T23:47:09Z dTal: honestly I'm a little surprised no one's done a reverse-Hylang, giving Scheme Python syntax
2019-05-11T23:47:38Z Zipheir: But you can map, lift, fold, etc. record accessor functions, whereas v1.x is pretty much just fixed.
2019-05-11T23:48:00Z dTal: and if you need to do that you can still use the verbose form
2019-05-11T23:48:18Z Zipheir: That's fair.
2019-05-11T23:49:58Z Zipheir: As long as there's a function there when you need it.  Having the dot operator be the only eliminator for structured types, as in many imperative languages, totally sucks.
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2019-05-11T23:50:45Z dTal: I think the right approach is to offer both
2019-05-11T23:51:40Z dTal: J suffers from the opposite problem culturally, they don't believe in anything *but* terse syntax, and if you suggest that every concept should have an associated long form english word they get sniffy
2019-05-11T23:53:42Z Zipheir: That seems like a separate issue.  The record accessor thing is more a divide between a functional perspective on data and, well, C.
2019-05-11T23:55:30Z Zipheir: But if foo.slot is just a hairy macro for (footype-slot foo), it's not a big deal, I guess.
2019-05-11T23:57:37Z dTal: I didn't even realise such a macro was even possible, since scheme treats the dot as part of the symbol
2019-05-11T23:58:12Z dTal: makes me wonder what the theoretical limits of macros are
2019-05-11T23:58:13Z Zipheir: Some black-magic non-portable thing, I suppose.
2019-05-11T23:59:47Z dTal: I don't think it represents a divide between a functional perspective and something else
2019-05-12T00:00:04Z dTal: it's just syntax for a particular kind of frequently used function
2019-05-12T00:00:41Z Zipheir: It's funny to see languages like Go with their Massive.Chains.Of.Dot.Operators.Which.Are.Prone.To.Explosion()
2019-05-12T00:02:13Z dTal: even scheme slips that in here and there, like with its type annotations for numbers when we could do all numbers like (make-exact num denom)
2019-05-12T00:05:09Z Zipheir: Type annotations?
2019-05-12T00:12:20Z dTal: yeah, like #e1.2 -> 6/5
2019-05-12T00:17:29Z Zipheir: Exactness prefixes aren't type annotations, although I guess they behave similarly.
2019-05-12T00:18:37Z dTal: I know what you mean, but I must protest that they specify a type, and they annotate :)
2019-05-12T00:20:32Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-05-12T00:22:19Z Zipheir: But it's not what anyone expects from a type annotation.  You can't have (func-on-exacts #e:x) or something.  It's just the syntax of exact literals.
2019-05-12T00:22:38Z dTal: Sadly.
2019-05-12T00:24:11Z dTal: Although even that would be unschemely. I would expect the syntax to be more like (define (func-on-exacts (exact x)) (body...))
2019-05-12T00:25:41Z Zipheir: CHICKEN has an interesting type system for Scheme. http://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/Types
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2019-05-12T00:27:28Z jcowan: dTal: K I think is even worse: not only is there ad hoc overloading between monadic and dyadic functions, but there is ad hoc overloading on (dynamic) argument types.
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2019-05-12T00:31:37Z jcowan: e.g. f/x can be "fold f over x" or "find the fixpoint of f(x)" depending on  what f is, and the dyadic form x f/y can be "fold f over x and y", "while", or "iterate"!
2019-05-12T00:33:08Z dTal: see that just seems gratuitously incomprehensible
2019-05-12T00:33:20Z dTal: at least the overloadings in APL made a certain kind of sense
2019-05-12T00:38:51Z jcowan: Yes, it's a matter of packing as much function into the single-character ASCII space as possible.
2019-05-12T00:39:08Z dTal: which is totally quixotic
2019-05-12T00:39:11Z jcowan: (I worked at one of the two K companies, 1010data.com)
2019-05-12T00:39:38Z dTal: oh did you? how interesting
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2019-05-12T00:44:32Z dTal: particularly as scheme and K are pretty much as philosophically diametrically opposed as it's possible for two functional languages to be
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2019-05-12T00:48:44Z jcowan: Yes, indeed.
2019-05-12T00:49:00Z jcowan: I didn't do serious K programming there, though, I was a cloud engineer.
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2019-05-12T06:42:01Z wasamasa: Zipheir: it's used for optimization, barely type checking
2019-05-12T06:43:09Z wasamasa: Zipheir: like, code will assume you only give it that specific type and optimize for that (and crash otherwise)
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2019-05-12T06:56:46Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Ah, interesting.
2019-05-12T06:57:16Z wasamasa: kind of like in CL
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2019-05-12T11:58:01Z amz3: when did code logo became an html tag?
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2019-05-12T12:43:54Z amz3: rain1: what do you think about my event based approach for doing ffi using chibi scheme?
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2019-05-12T13:55:21Z dTal: How does one decide between embedding a programming language in an application, and making the all the hard-coded features of an application into a library for a programming language?
2019-05-12T13:55:28Z dTal: Is there even a meaningful difference between the two?
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2019-05-12T14:02:12Z pjb: dTal: it's basically a no-brainer choice.
2019-05-12T14:02:44Z dTal: I'm not clear on what the difference even is.
2019-05-12T14:03:23Z pjb: dTal: https://pastebin.com/aEehD021
2019-05-12T14:03:57Z dTal: Is emacs an editor with a built-in scripting language? Or is it an text-editing library for a homebrew programming language?
2019-05-12T14:04:04Z pjb: dTal: You would do both. The difference is that the library is for programmers, while the application is for users.
2019-05-12T14:04:29Z pjb: emacs is an editor in a lisp machine.
2019-05-12T14:04:48Z dTal: What's the difference between a programmer and a user? A user may want arbitrary complexity.
2019-05-12T14:04:53Z pjb: Exactly.
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2019-05-12T14:05:41Z pjb: Provide both.
2019-05-12T14:06:11Z dTal: "Both" still implies that they are two distinct concepts.
2019-05-12T14:06:46Z dTal: Perhaps it's a soft boundary, relating to exactly how much hard coded behavior you want to provide?
2019-05-12T14:07:04Z pjb: Yes. The difference can be as small as int main(){ mylib_init(); while(1){ mylib_process_event(); } return 0;}
2019-05-12T14:07:40Z pjb: See for example ecl vs. libecl.
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2019-05-12T14:08:31Z pjb: You can run ecl, load a shared library written in C.  Or you can link a C program with libecl. The only difference is whether the main is written in lisp or in C.
2019-05-12T14:09:16Z pjb: The main of emacs is an emacs main. If emacs was available as a library libemacs, it could be used in programs whose main would be written in different languages.
2019-05-12T14:10:20Z pjb: Now, technically in system that are not well designed, it may look like there's a big difference, because they're not structured correctly. But if they're structured correctly, you will notice that the library is there, as well as the main and the extension language.
2019-05-12T14:10:40Z dTal: I've seldom seen a system that is "well designed" then/
2019-05-12T14:10:49Z pjb: When you compile some application, you can notice that it compiles actually one or more libraries, and then it just links a small main with them.
2019-05-12T14:11:15Z pjb: Look for systems with an extension language ;-)
2019-05-12T14:11:24Z dTal: Blender is an interesting example, because its Python console operates exactly like you'd expect if Blender were a library - you have to import bpy etc.
2019-05-12T14:11:55Z dTal: Yet, it's not officially supported (though possible) to use Blender as a library from system Python.
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2019-05-12T14:13:46Z dTal: Or libfive, a C++ program with embedded Guile, even though its entire purpose is to provide a Scheme interface to a C++ library
2019-05-12T14:14:32Z dTal: it seems simpler and hence more popular to embed programming languages than to extend them
2019-05-12T14:15:20Z dTal: Or maybe it's that the properties of an ideal "scripting interface" are not the same as the properties of an ideal "implementation language"
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2019-05-12T14:17:00Z dTal: thanks for the link pjb - another fragment of enlightenment :)
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2019-05-12T19:05:12Z jcowan: I would say that extension is much commoner than embedding, so much so that people take no notice of it.  Embedding is rare enough to attract attention.
2019-05-12T19:06:26Z jcowan: If you look through lists of available libraries for random languages, a large fraction of them are wrappers around some existing library that is being used to extend the language.
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2019-05-12T20:56:10Z amz3: rudybot: when did the logo for code became an html tag?
2019-05-12T20:56:23Z rudybot: amz3: when did code logo became an html tag?
2019-05-12T20:56:47Z amz3: rudybot: what about html?
2019-05-12T20:56:50Z rudybot: amz3: As usual, TVT is pretty good at saying what fiction gets wrong about homing pigeons: https://dlang.org/spec/lex.html#wysiwyg
2019-05-12T21:07:29Z dTal: ack, how does this *work*
2019-05-12T21:08:44Z dTal: https://github.com/dharmatech/box2d-lite/blob/master/vec.sls
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2019-05-12T21:08:58Z dTal: in my repl I type (import (rnrs) (box2d-lite util define-record-type)) which works
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2019-05-12T21:09:29Z dTal: then I try the next s-expr, (define-record-type++ vec is-vec import-vec ...) etc and I get Exception: invalid syntax
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2019-05-12T21:10:41Z dTal: the macro is clearly defined since it appears in my tab-completion
2019-05-12T21:17:10Z dTal: does anyone know anything about the chap that wrote all this? Eduardo Cavazos? He seems like a Scheme virtuoso
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2019-05-12T21:42:21Z weinholt: dTal, this patch should fix that particular issue: https://github.com/weinholt/box2d-lite/commit/ad42c6558d536876dee3b4de7f1b1fd7747dec9f
2019-05-12T21:43:44Z dTal: weinholt: wow, above and beyond! What is the nature of the issue?
2019-05-12T21:44:46Z weinholt: dTal, keywords used in syntax-rules and syntax-case need to be defined like that, otherwise they don't work in the chez repl. i'm not entirely sure why.
2019-05-12T21:45:49Z dTal: dharmatech has a standalone version of this library not attached to box2d-lite https://github.com/dharmatech/dharmalab/blob/master/records/define-record-type.sls
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2019-05-12T21:48:36Z weinholt: looks like it has the same issue
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2019-05-12T22:00:20Z dTal: wow thanks weinholt
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2019-05-12T22:01:52Z dTal: you know these libraries are really very shiny
2019-05-12T22:02:03Z dTal: it sure would be nice if they were maintained and documented
2019-05-12T22:05:42Z aos: Hi everyone -- I have a simple question
2019-05-12T22:05:54Z aos: I'm using MIT/GNU scheme and having a hard time with the debugger
2019-05-12T22:06:09Z aos: Is there some resource out there I can use to learn how to use it (well)?
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2019-05-13T04:51:15Z ecraven: aos: there's a section about it in the manual
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2019-05-13T17:03:14Z lambdapanda: hi! I'm wondering about the idiomatic/proper way to update a list in a purely functional style. For example: I have a list called ITEMS and I want to append new items. Do I re-define it every time I make an append? (define ITEMS (append ITEMS item))
2019-05-13T17:03:27Z lambdapanda: I'm a beginner so I'm sorry if this is too basic :)
2019-05-13T17:03:36Z rain1: you can do that if the list is short
2019-05-13T17:03:45Z rain1: it's not normal to do that though, because it gets slower each time you append
2019-05-13T17:04:01Z rain1: and maybe you meant (append ITEMS (list item))
2019-05-13T17:04:20Z rain1: it's more common to do (define ITEMS (cons item ITEMS)), which is O(1) rather than APPEND being O(n)
2019-05-13T17:04:23Z rain1: but the list is backwards
2019-05-13T17:04:40Z rain1: if that's a problem you may want to use something like a queue data structure
2019-05-13T17:05:30Z rain1: where you have both the list and a reference to the last cons cell of the list, so you can do SET-CDR! on it to extend the list in O(1)
2019-05-13T17:05:36Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/tarot-compiler/blob/master/std/queue.scm like this
2019-05-13T17:05:45Z lambdapanda: rain1: I see. The list I'm building never gets too large. I'm basically writing a simple todo list program (just for practice) and the list I'm appending to is the list that holds the todo items, so I'm assuming i'll never need a large number of items
2019-05-13T17:06:02Z rain1: it should be fine to just append for now then
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2019-05-13T17:06:10Z rain1: and in future you can always change the data structures
2019-05-13T17:06:14Z lambdapanda: I was mainly wondering if it's a good/bad programming style to keep redefining the list everytime i update it
2019-05-13T17:06:30Z rain1: use SET! rather than DEFINE
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2019-05-13T17:06:50Z lambdapanda: but if i do that then it's not purely functional
2019-05-13T17:07:26Z rain1: you shouldn't do pure functional coding in scheme
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2019-05-13T17:08:19Z lambdapanda: hmm for some reason I thought it was a bad habit to use SET! unless necessary
2019-05-13T17:09:25Z davexunit: generally speaking, yes, that's true.
2019-05-13T17:09:40Z davexunit: if you are writing in a purely functional style, then you wouldn't use it.
2019-05-13T17:10:28Z lambdapanda: what's the most common style that scheme programmers use in general?
2019-05-13T17:11:05Z davexunit: in my experience in the Guile community we favor a functional style.
2019-05-13T17:11:33Z davexunit: but the reality is that I/O is inherently a stateful thing so some layer of your program has to be written in an imperative style.
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2019-05-13T17:12:26Z lambdapanda: davexunit: yeah I'm new to both scheme and functional programming in general so I'm still trying to figure out what the proper style to use is and for what cases. This makes things more clear for sure
2019-05-13T17:12:35Z davexunit: my general approach is to define data types and functions that operate on them that are purely functional.
2019-05-13T17:12:49Z lambdapanda: davexunit: the Guile docs seemed to discourage mutable stuff
2019-05-13T17:13:04Z davexunit: the top-most layer of the program then handles user input and stuff, and that is written in an imperative style.
2019-05-13T17:13:41Z davexunit: and generally speaking, the more low-level or performance sensitive the code is, the more mutability I introduce.
2019-05-13T17:13:56Z lambdapanda: makes sense I guess
2019-05-13T17:14:33Z davexunit: I wrote a static site generator in Scheme. all the core data types and the procedures that work with them are all written in a functional style.
2019-05-13T17:15:36Z davexunit: but there are parsers and I/O operations (read in user posts -> output blog) that are imperative.
2019-05-13T17:16:51Z lambdapanda: are you referring to Haunt?
2019-05-13T17:16:53Z davexunit: yes
2019-05-13T17:17:21Z davexunit: imperative I/O, functional data model.
2019-05-13T17:17:51Z lambdapanda: oh awesome! I stumbled upon your website a few days ago and I love the content!
2019-05-13T17:17:59Z davexunit: thanks!
2019-05-13T17:18:25Z lambdapanda: I'll definitely take a look over Haunt's source code
2019-05-13T17:19:05Z lambdapanda: thanks for the help guys!
2019-05-13T17:19:40Z davexunit: I hope what I've written so far is helpful. viewing the program as a stack of layers has been a good way for me to visualize program structure.
2019-05-13T17:20:36Z lambdapanda: yeah I'll keep what you described in mind while familiarizing myself with the code
2019-05-13T17:20:39Z davexunit: as a counter-example, I also have a game programming library and it's basically all imperative because it's so performance sensitive.
2019-05-13T17:20:59Z davexunit: reducing allocation and thus GC is the name of the game there.
2019-05-13T17:21:38Z lambdapanda: yeah it must've been a major headache to build the library
2019-05-13T17:21:48Z davexunit: one of the great things about Scheme is being able to program in whatever paradigm you'd like.
2019-05-13T17:22:06Z lambdapanda: yeah it's the main reason I'm learning Scheme tbh
2019-05-13T17:22:10Z davexunit: but that can also be confusing as a beginner.
2019-05-13T17:22:47Z davexunit: I have also written some code on top of my game library that uses an object-oriented style.
2019-05-13T17:23:48Z lambdapanda: I dove into scheme because I was working on generative art (creative coding, 2d simulations, etc) and I hated having to do that in Java and C++. I figured it might be worth learning Scheme to see if I can express things differently (and better) when making generative art, which matters a lot because it's mostly exploratory and involves a lot of modification
2019-05-13T17:24:23Z lambdapanda: your game library is on my list of libraries to try for 2d graphics once I'm comfortable with scheme basics
2019-05-13T17:25:08Z lambdapanda: I love the logo btw :P
2019-05-13T17:25:17Z davexunit: are you referring to chickadee?
2019-05-13T17:25:20Z lambdapanda: yeah
2019-05-13T17:25:23Z davexunit: thanks :)
2019-05-13T17:25:30Z lambdapanda: :)
2019-05-13T17:26:15Z davexunit: the big caveat with chickadee right now is that most of the functionality is for 2D sprite-based games right now.
2019-05-13T17:26:38Z davexunit: there's nothing that limits it to just that, but it's the style of game I like to hack on so it's what I've spent most of my time writing.
2019-05-13T17:27:15Z davexunit: so it's a little lacking when it comes to, say, vector graphics (drawing lines, splines, polygons, etc.)
2019-05-13T17:27:15Z lambdapanda: does it have primitives for drawing shapes like lines, circles, etc or is everything sprite-based?
2019-05-13T17:27:21Z lambdapanda: oh
2019-05-13T17:27:29Z davexunit: I can do lines and rectangles righ tnow
2019-05-13T17:27:32Z davexunit: real simple
2019-05-13T17:27:40Z davexunit: the lines are actually nice looking
2019-05-13T17:28:02Z davexunit: but it's missing a lot to be really good in that regard.
2019-05-13T17:28:16Z lambdapanda: what would be the best choice for 2d vector graphics?
2019-05-13T17:28:38Z davexunit: in scheme? I'm not sure. I bet someone has written something for racket!
2019-05-13T17:28:54Z lambdapanda: yeah I think racket has something along those lines
2019-05-13T17:29:10Z davexunit: the pict family of libraries could be used there
2019-05-13T17:29:36Z lambdapanda: problem is I really hated using racket for some reason xD
2019-05-13T17:29:41Z davexunit: the limitation there is that they just generate bitmaps at the end of the day. it's not like a game library that is doing real-time rendering with OpenGL.
2019-05-13T17:30:49Z lambdapanda: does chickadee support loading shaders?
2019-05-13T17:30:52Z davexunit: I have a friend that wrote a tetris clone and some other cool stuff with these tools, but if the game was more demanding in terms of rendering it would get slow.
2019-05-13T17:30:56Z davexunit: yes, it does.
2019-05-13T17:31:07Z lambdapanda: oh that's awesome
2019-05-13T17:31:17Z davexunit: my long-term plans (who knows if I'll ever get there) is to include a Scheme -> GLSL compiler.
2019-05-13T17:31:28Z davexunit: but write now you just write regular old GLSL
2019-05-13T17:31:47Z lambdapanda: scheme -> glsl compiler would be amazing
2019-05-13T17:32:03Z lambdapanda: but it sounds like a lot of work haha
2019-05-13T17:32:06Z davexunit: there's a CL library called varjo that does this
2019-05-13T17:32:12Z davexunit: but that's common lisp
2019-05-13T17:32:20Z davexunit: it's really neat, though.
2019-05-13T17:32:28Z lambdapanda: yeah CL seems to have all the cool libraries
2019-05-13T17:32:31Z davexunit: it's not high on my priority list right now. too many other things missing.
2019-05-13T17:32:49Z davexunit: a decent vector graphics system would be really nice.
2019-05-13T17:32:53Z lambdapanda: are you familiar with love2d?
2019-05-13T17:32:55Z davexunit: yes
2019-05-13T17:33:08Z lambdapanda: in terms of feature-parity, how close is chickadee to love2d?
2019-05-13T17:33:25Z davexunit: I'm trying to make chickadee be Guile's version of love2d, basically.
2019-05-13T17:33:31Z lambdapanda: oh I see
2019-05-13T17:33:53Z davexunit: it's not at feature parity, but it's not too far off, honestly.
2019-05-13T17:34:04Z lambdapanda: well that's good news I guess
2019-05-13T17:34:37Z lambdapanda: I love how every language seems to have a library trying to mimic love2d
2019-05-13T17:34:41Z lambdapanda: it's so damn good
2019-05-13T17:35:23Z davexunit: right now I'm missing: truetype font rendering, OpenAL sound (I have a WIP for this but for now you can use SDL_mixer), vector graphics, videos
2019-05-13T17:35:23Z lambdapanda: is there a listing of games that use chickadee?
2019-05-13T17:35:30Z davexunit: there aren't any games that use it.
2019-05-13T17:35:44Z lambdapanda: oh what about lispgamejams
2019-05-13T17:35:57Z davexunit: not even that, unfortunately. I haven't submitted anything.
2019-05-13T17:36:10Z davexunit: I submitted something for an old experimental library that I abandoned.
2019-05-13T17:36:33Z lambdapanda: Sly?
2019-05-13T17:36:36Z davexunit: yup
2019-05-13T17:36:48Z davexunit: I've thought about porting Sly to run on top of chickadee.
2019-05-13T17:36:52Z davexunit: just for fun.
2019-05-13T17:37:17Z lambdapanda: the live coding aspect of it seems interesting
2019-05-13T17:37:20Z davexunit: chickadee is purposely lower level. it's just a collection of all the tools people need to make games without an overarching framework or engine.
2019-05-13T17:37:25Z lambdapanda: is it possible with chickadee?
2019-05-13T17:37:28Z davexunit: yes
2019-05-13T17:37:40Z lambdapanda: oh that's awesome, didnt know that
2019-05-13T17:37:54Z davexunit: but there's no reactive system or anything
2019-05-13T17:38:08Z davexunit: but I have programmed little demos live from the REPL
2019-05-13T17:38:39Z davexunit: but it doesn't "just work" because that's more of an engine thing
2019-05-13T17:39:38Z davexunit: chickadee has stuff that love doesn't have, and there's another of things in love2d that I don't have to write at all because Guile provides it. all the system and thread stuff, for example.
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2019-05-13T17:39:59Z davexunit: s/another/a number/
2019-05-13T17:40:17Z lambdapanda: honestly the main reason I couldn't stick to love2d is lua
2019-05-13T17:40:21Z lambdapanda: it's just so damn weird
2019-05-13T17:40:28Z davexunit: yeah, not my favorite language either.
2019-05-13T17:40:31Z lambdapanda: it feels like a downgrade from everything else
2019-05-13T17:41:12Z davexunit: one nice thing about chickadee, in my very biased opinion, is that it provides a pretty decent abstraction over OpenGL.
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2019-05-13T17:41:23Z davexunit: love2d doesn't really expose any of that to you.
2019-05-13T17:41:55Z davexunit: but if you know what you're doing, you can use chickadee's buffer, texture, and shader data types to implement just about anything you want.
2019-05-13T17:42:13Z lambdapanda: yeah that gives you a lot of power
2019-05-13T17:42:23Z lambdapanda: I'll definitely give it a try
2019-05-13T17:42:26Z lambdapanda: looks really promising
2019-05-13T17:42:33Z davexunit: and that is how all of the nice things like sprite rendering are implemented.
2019-05-13T17:43:21Z davexunit: I can't promise API stability at this point (still pre 1.0) but feel free to ping me here on irc if you have questions
2019-05-13T17:43:49Z lambdapanda: awesome, thanks a lot!
2019-05-13T17:43:57Z davexunit: I was hoping it would get a few occasional contributors like Haunt did, but so far no luck.
2019-05-13T17:44:23Z davexunit: I am getting ready to release 0.4, though. been almost a year since I made an official release.
2019-05-13T17:44:37Z davexunit: lots of improvements there.
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2019-05-13T17:45:26Z lambdapanda: I have a lot of free time on my hands but not enough scheme experience or game library experience so far. Once I feel confident with what I know I'd definitely love to contribute to it
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2019-05-13T17:46:06Z lambdapanda: looking forward to 0.4
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2019-05-13T17:47:02Z davexunit: :)
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2019-05-13T20:31:36Z lmln: anybody have experience with getting chez scheme ffi to work under windows?
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2019-05-13T20:45:54Z amz3: lmln: there is #chez channel if you don't find solution, or try the mailing list.
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2019-05-13T20:50:23Z lmln: thx, im trying to get this to work : https://cisco.github.io/ChezScheme/csug9.5/foreign.html#./foreign:h9
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2019-05-13T20:51:31Z lmln: I'm getting Exception: (while loading evenodd.dll) unable to load library
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2019-05-14T11:17:54Z amz3: o/
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2019-05-14T17:59:04Z Zipheir: .ilm .i lu'a ko'a noi zgana la'e di'u cu cusku lu doi pendo ko sisti
2019-05-14T17:59:18Z Zipheir: Oops, wrong window :)
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2019-05-14T18:10:41Z ecraven: Zipheir: coi ;)
2019-05-14T18:10:57Z ecraven: (unfortunately, that's about the extent of my knowledge)
2019-05-14T18:14:27Z Zipheir: ecraven: .u'i coi
2019-05-14T18:16:33Z ski: (lojban ?)
2019-05-14T18:19:24Z ecraven: aye ;)
2019-05-14T18:19:33Z ecraven: my toki pona is slightly better ;)
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2019-05-14T23:05:30Z amz3: rudybot: what do you think of r7rs?
2019-05-14T23:05:37Z rudybot: amz3: I think that R7RS-large is beginning to grow a predicate-based type system. There are signs of it in the small language already, but that is the path I seem to be walking down without really having meant to do so.
2019-05-14T23:06:10Z amz3: rudybot: tell me more on r7rs?
2019-05-14T23:06:12Z rudybot: amz3: tell r7rs comitee!
2019-05-14T23:06:27Z amz3: rudybot: r7rs?
2019-05-14T23:06:27Z rudybot: amz3: don't some schemers intend to limit the macro language (to declarative ones, or something) ? i could swear i've read something like that (for R7RS proposals or so)
2019-05-14T23:06:37Z amz3: hmm
2019-05-14T23:07:03Z amz3: isn't declarative macro language something like define-syntax-rule and define-macro?
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2019-05-14T23:47:21Z ski: `define-macro' would probably not count as declarative
2019-05-14T23:51:33Z siraben: rudybot: knock knock
2019-05-14T23:51:34Z rudybot: siraben: I'll knock you off in a minute.
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2019-05-15T00:24:58Z adu: hi ski
2019-05-15T00:25:58Z ski: hello
2019-05-15T00:27:18Z adu: my personal favorite is match
2019-05-15T00:27:32Z adu: not really a macro system, but still useful
2019-05-15T00:28:18Z adu: ski: how are you?
2019-05-15T00:28:39Z ski is sleepy
2019-05-15T00:29:03Z ski: (it's not clear what was intended by "declarative" in "declarative macro language")
2019-05-15T00:29:36Z ski: (one might claim it means something like `syntax-rules', where we have translation clauses, being pairs of templates and patterns)
2019-05-15T00:30:37Z ski: (or, perhaps, one might claim that one could allow more general computational methods, as long as one doesn't use (allow ?) side-effects .. and presumably hygiene would also be enforced (at least by default) ?)
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2019-05-15T00:32:19Z ski: (although .. perhaps "declarative" could be construed to mean something more akin to logic/relational programming .. hmm)
2019-05-15T00:34:02Z daviid: ski: not sure about the context within which you were asking, but generaly speaking, a declarative language is one where users express the 'form' or the 'shape' of the results to be obtain, not the way to obtain these results
2019-05-15T00:34:19Z daviid: yes sql is declarative, by definition, scheme is not
2019-05-15T00:38:33Z ski: sometimes one sees functional and logic programming both grouped under the umbrella of declarative programming
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2019-05-15T00:41:43Z aeth: ski: Also e.g. SQL's relational programming
2019-05-15T00:42:10Z ski: (oh, and quite probably constraint programming as well .. at least the "tell" (as opposed to "ask") part. then there's attribute grammars, which feel declarative to me, as well)
2019-05-15T00:42:48Z ski: yea .. i count relational databases as closely related to logic/relational programming (as in Prolog,Mercury,Oz,...)
2019-05-15T00:43:03Z aeth: daviid: Scheme isn't declarative because it isn't pure functional
2019-05-15T00:43:17Z ski: (occasionally, i've seen "declarative programming" as, i think, a synonym of "logic/relational programming")
2019-05-15T00:43:34Z aeth: I personally see the Lisp family as languages for writing declarative languages.
2019-05-15T00:43:57Z ski: oh, DSLs, and EDSLs
2019-05-15T00:44:38Z daviid: ski logic yes, functional, by no mean
2019-05-15T00:44:48Z daviid: aeth that is not the problem
2019-05-15T00:44:56Z daviid: or the definition should i say
2019-05-15T00:45:45Z daviid: in scheme, just like in C, but at a higher level, so to speak, you don't describe the form nor th shape of the results  , but the way to acheive their computation
2019-05-15T00:45:56Z ski: daviid : can you elaborate ?
2019-05-15T00:46:50Z daviid: ski, what is it you don't understand?
2019-05-15T00:47:07Z daviid: ski just read a tiny piece of SQL and a tiny piece of scheme code
2019-05-15T00:47:27Z ski: i'm not sure which part "logic yes, functional, by no mean" was referring/responding to
2019-05-15T00:47:47Z aeth: daviid: Depends on the API. A lot of well-designed Lisp-family APIs wind up being declarative.
2019-05-15T00:47:55Z daviid: ski i was thnking of prolog, which is declarative as well
2019-05-15T00:48:07Z aeth: daviid: Really, in the end, all you should have is a bunch of define-foos
2019-05-15T00:48:17Z ski: aeth : like `match', as adu mentioned
2019-05-15T00:48:20Z daviid: aeth: but then its not scheme or lisp anymore, but your library 'on top'
2019-05-15T00:48:54Z aeth: daviid: hence why Scheme is a language for writing declarative languages.
2019-05-15T00:48:56Z ski: daviid : but you're claiming function is not declarative, is that right ?
2019-05-15T00:49:03Z ski: s/function/functional/
2019-05-15T00:49:07Z adu: my dream is to reimplement gcc in terms of match
2019-05-15T00:50:10Z daviid: it's not because you cld write an SQL interperter in cheme that scheme becomes declarative
2019-05-15T00:50:16Z daviid: *could
2019-05-15T00:50:36Z daviid: ski: functiona has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with declarative
2019-05-15T00:50:43Z daviid: imo
2019-05-15T00:51:01Z ski: daviid : why not ? what do you intend by the term "declarative" ?
2019-05-15T00:51:14Z daviid: ski i said it above
2019-05-15T00:51:32Z aeth: daviid: Functional can be declarative if the domain is mathematics
2019-05-15T00:51:45Z daviid: if ... we put paris i a botle
2019-05-15T00:52:31Z aeth: A lot of the time you can literally just write a mathematical definition and get a valid functional program, without having to worry about e.g. all of the minutia that you'd get in C
2019-05-15T00:54:41Z aeth: And if you're literally just writing the definition, that sounds pretty declarative to me
2019-05-15T00:56:34Z daviid: aeth: but that 'it sounds pretty declarative' to you does not change the fact that in the first place, scheme is not a declaratice progamming language: users have to program the way to obtain the results, they don't express the shape of the results
2019-05-15T00:59:36Z aeth: daviid: Well, it's not a binary 1 or 0 — it's a double-float range 0.0 to 1.0
2019-05-15T01:00:16Z aeth: daviid: but I think people who call "functional programming" a kind of "declarative programming" are using the definition of "functional programming" that only counts "pure functional programming" and would largely exclude languages like Scheme and Common Lisp.
2019-05-15T01:00:46Z daviid: aeth: pure functional programming has nothing to do with declarative programmming
2019-05-15T01:01:04Z daviid: these are totally distinct setof languages
2019-05-15T01:02:09Z ski: i'm not seeing how pure functional programming couldn't fit under "language ... where users express the 'form' or the 'shape' of the results to be obtain, not the way to obtain these results"
2019-05-15T01:02:31Z ski: (of course not all Scheme programs are declarative. that's not the point)
2019-05-15T01:03:09Z aeth: daviid: When the domain is mathematics, and you are just expressing definitions or formulae directly translated from the mathematics domain to the FP language without telling the machine how to do it, I think that counts as declarative.
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2019-05-15T01:04:01Z aeth: "F = m * a" can, in a sense, be declarative imo.
2019-05-15T01:04:06Z ski: (however, Scheme does enable a (purely) functional programming style, to a larger extent than say CL (not to speak of mosts non-Lisps))
2019-05-15T01:04:16Z daviid: no
2019-05-15T01:04:20Z aeth: (And, yes, that's physics, not math... for math you could have e.g. 2 * pi * r)
2019-05-15T01:04:55Z daviid: yu see, that is exactly what imperative is, nad has nothig to do with declarative
2019-05-15T01:05:55Z daviid: but I have to leave the place I am working
2019-05-15T01:05:59Z daviid: bbl
2019-05-15T01:06:06Z ski: if you're going to say that a pure functional description gives a "how", not a "what", then i think one could argue that something similar can be said about *some* computations in Mercury (which is pure logic programming), or in SQL (or Datalog, say)
2019-05-15T01:07:30Z ski: (iow, some computations in the latter might be expressed in a roundabout way, for the sake of efficiency)
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2019-05-15T01:10:32Z aeth: If you were to say (define (circumference r) (* 2 pi r)) that is imo both pure functional and declarative programming. You are taking "C = 2 pi r" and essentially directly translating that into the new, Scheme syntax. In a sense, Scheme is more rigorous because that should be C(r) on the lefthand side, since even there in math form it's C as a function of r afaik.
2019-05-15T01:12:02Z aeth: There's a lot that goes on under the hood. It's probably using a double float. It's probably coercing whatever number, expressed in many different ways, that you pass in into a double float and then doing three (or even two, if the compiler turns pi into 2 * pi at compile time) multiplications, etc.
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2019-05-15T01:15:15Z aeth: e.g. The equivalent in Common Lisp (SBCL) does store the constant 6.283185307179586d0 and then calls the function GENERIC-* on it and the argument, returning the result of that hidden (and possibly elaborate) function call
2019-05-15T01:19:27Z aeth: How would you do it procedurally? Well in C you could create a struct consisting of two members, the first called type and the second being a union of all of the numeric types (single, double, int, etc.). You would then convert the number into a double based on the value of number->type in a big conditional. Then you'd "return 2 * M_PI * number_as_double;" at the very end.
2019-05-15T01:22:01Z aeth: Oh, and notice how I said number->type. Yes, you're explicitly passing in a pointer here if you use the approach I said. So the function signature could e.g. be "double my_library_circumference(number_t *number);" and calling it you'd have to know when to "&number" and when to "number"
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2019-05-15T01:22:47Z aeth: Maybe it's better not to use a pointer. That's something you have to think about. Notice how Lisps do all of this thinking for you.
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2019-05-15T01:25:55Z aeth: Oh, and notice how you get all of that description by knowing (some) C, rather than just by knowing "C = 2 pi r" and the language syntax.
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2019-05-15T03:56:39Z Riastradh: aeth: `C = 2 pi r' could also be an equation about functions on a manifold, C(p) = 2 pi r(p), with multiplication lifted pointwise, (f*g)(p) = f(p) * g(p).
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2019-05-15T06:08:02Z amz3: o/
2019-05-15T06:08:39Z oni-on-ion: ^_^
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2019-05-15T19:05:09Z amz3: oh someone posted on scheme newsgroup something that is not spam?!
2019-05-15T19:06:16Z pjb: of course, if non-spam questions are asked, non-spam answers are posted.
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2019-05-15T19:16:18Z oni-on-ion: =)
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2019-05-15T20:47:36Z Zipheir: rudybot: Whereas you answer all questions with spam answers, don't you?
2019-05-15T20:47:39Z rudybot: Zipheir: if eli is around, I'll bet you he answers your question
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2019-05-17T06:56:45Z wasamasa: is there an official place to hand in bugs with chibi scheme?
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2019-05-17T07:01:10Z wasamasa: oh, there's a repository on github
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2019-05-17T14:14:57Z amz3: https://screenshots.firefox.com/KXtUMYJyGkAI9J00/localhost
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2019-05-17T14:58:19Z quipa: hello! I am trying to get pstk to work with chez scheme, tried installing the (bottled pstk) package using akku
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2019-05-17T14:59:25Z quipa: I don't quite understand what I have to add to pstk to get it to work
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2019-05-17T14:59:52Z quipa: in the cond-expand
2019-05-17T15:01:55Z quipa: does anyone have some pointers in that sense..?
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2019-05-17T15:14:37Z gwatt: quipa: does the cond-expand itself cause issue or does the program signal an error attempting to use run-program?
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2019-05-17T15:15:27Z quipa: hum it just gets an error like so
2019-05-17T15:15:32Z quipa: Exception: library (rebottled pstk) not found
2019-05-17T15:15:32Z quipa: Type (debug) to enter the debugger.
2019-05-17T15:15:41Z quipa: I tried the example in akku page
2019-05-17T15:15:59Z quipa: wak-htmlprag
2019-05-17T15:16:03Z quipa: that seems to load properly
2019-05-17T15:16:29Z quipa: so I looked at the pstk page
2019-05-17T15:16:37Z quipa: linked in akku
2019-05-17T15:16:37Z quipa: http://snow-fort.org/s/peterlane.info/peter/rebottled/pstk/1.7.0/index.html
2019-05-17T15:17:07Z quipa: and I saw it mentions that
2019-05-17T15:17:34Z quipa: to be honest I haven't worked with r6rs libraries, most of my schemeish experience is with racket
2019-05-17T15:19:08Z quipa: but I quite like the chez scheme repl, felt very simple straightforward and with some useful tools so I was wondering if I could develop in it..! Plus I am reading "The Scheme Programming Language", 4th ed by Kent Dybvig
2019-05-17T15:19:53Z gwatt: I'm not sure if the error "library (rebottled pstk) not found" is related to the cond-expand
2019-05-17T15:19:54Z quipa: also was trying to get Scheme Widget Library to work
2019-05-17T15:20:09Z quipa: yeah to be honest I don't think so either
2019-05-17T15:20:31Z quipa: but couldn't think of something immediately
2019-05-17T15:20:33Z gwatt: I had SWL working (at least, starting up) under a recent version of Chez
2019-05-17T15:20:50Z quipa: yeah? let me show you the error I got (using Linux mint)
2019-05-17T15:21:04Z quipa: Don't know how to build for ta6le, edit configure.ss.
2019-05-17T15:21:21Z quipa: I had a look at the file but no idea what to do
2019-05-17T15:21:26Z gwatt: Yeah, SWL doesn't play nice with the threaded version of Chez
2019-05-17T15:21:57Z quipa: ah ok! So which version works well?
2019-05-17T15:22:20Z quipa: the package manager supplied version is 9.5
2019-05-17T15:22:37Z gwatt: You'll want to have the a6le build installed, or at least accessible
2019-05-17T15:23:29Z quipa: is it a scheme library or C library..? was trying to find ta6le in the system package manager but no luck
2019-05-17T15:23:43Z quipa: to be honest I don't really know what a6le is
2019-05-17T15:23:50Z quipa: it's a library right?
2019-05-17T15:23:55Z quipa: or..?
2019-05-17T15:24:27Z gwatt: ta6le, a6le, etc is how chez identifies its machine type
2019-05-17T15:24:45Z quipa: ah ok! as in t for threaded
2019-05-17T15:24:50Z gwatt: yep
2019-05-17T15:25:16Z quipa: so a dev package?
2019-05-17T15:25:16Z gwatt: "a6" is for amd64 bit, "i3" is for intel 32 bit, and "le" is for linux, "osx" for mac, and "nt" for windows
2019-05-17T15:25:33Z quipa: ah cool useful too know
2019-05-17T15:25:38Z quipa: to know
2019-05-17T15:25:43Z quipa: :)
2019-05-17T15:26:09Z gwatt: I tend to just build it from source.
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2019-05-17T15:26:41Z quipa: yeah I might give that a try, but if I could get it to work just with package manager would make it easier to get it working on a few computers
2019-05-17T15:27:09Z quipa: I quite like the chez repl
2019-05-17T15:27:19Z gwatt: I have a script on my home computer that will build / install for all linux based machine types
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2019-05-17T15:27:40Z quipa: nice
2019-05-17T15:27:52Z gwatt: I'll throw it up on gist or somewhere when I get home
2019-05-17T15:28:14Z quipa: thanks :)
2019-05-17T15:28:23Z quipa: that would be great
2019-05-17T15:28:46Z quipa: apart from pstk and swl
2019-05-17T15:29:04Z gwatt: IIRC, you'll also have to update some of the C code for SWL because Tcl/Tk has changed slightly
2019-05-17T15:29:35Z quipa: are there any other wortwhile gui options that would play nicely with chez scheme
2019-05-17T15:29:46Z quipa: yeah I noticed the docs still mention version 8.3
2019-05-17T15:30:12Z quipa: the oldest package on the ubuntu repositories think is 8.5
2019-05-17T15:30:25Z gwatt: I used SWL back in uni, but I haven't tried to build an actual GUI in it.
2019-05-17T15:30:47Z quipa:  I've played a bit with racket's gui library
2019-05-17T15:30:51Z quipa: but I don't know
2019-05-17T15:31:07Z quipa: I am a bit disenchanted with Racket
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2019-05-17T15:31:39Z quipa: I just wanted a simpler scheme with gui that's about it
2019-05-17T15:32:10Z quipa: too much stuff going on at the same time in racket, even if a lot of it is nice and interesting
2019-05-17T15:32:25Z quipa: although it has an interesting class system
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2019-05-17T15:32:34Z quipa: I just would prefer having  tiny-clos
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2019-05-17T15:33:24Z quipa: it's neither as usable as the kind of OO in python nor as flexible as CLOS like
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2019-05-17T15:33:57Z gwatt: I like chez, but because it was close source for so long it doesn't (yet?) have a large community around it
2019-05-17T15:34:26Z quipa: yeah I noticed that, but of all the scheme's I've given a try beyond Racket
2019-05-17T15:34:36Z quipa: it's the only one I've felt a bit more at ease
2019-05-17T15:34:48Z quipa: I mean although I value rlwrap
2019-05-17T15:35:05Z gwatt: I think chicken has some decent GUI options, and guile as well I believe. Guile also has GOOPS which might be similar enough to CLOS for what you want
2019-05-17T15:35:25Z quipa: yeah I haven't looked to deeply into Guile it sounds interesting
2019-05-17T15:35:40Z quipa: only the GNU philosophy bothers me
2019-05-17T15:35:53Z quipa: but apart from that it seems interesting ecosystem
2019-05-17T15:36:05Z quipa: I tried chicken but I felt a bit lost and frustrated
2019-05-17T15:36:17Z quipa: tried to install a bunch of packages
2019-05-17T15:36:29Z quipa: but it just didn't work and I didn't quite follow why
2019-05-17T15:36:57Z quipa: recurring problem really with most programming languages I've used
2019-05-17T15:37:07Z quipa: I've tried to be most correct
2019-05-17T15:37:34Z quipa: python and system package management has still been the most straightforward till now
2019-05-17T15:37:56Z quipa: if I had a bit more skill I would work with a ports library BSD style
2019-05-17T15:38:14Z quipa: but I just haven't had the time...
2019-05-17T15:38:42Z quipa: the closest to not using the system or language package managers
2019-05-17T15:39:03Z quipa: is compiling some things and getting it some link on .local/bin
2019-05-17T15:39:10Z quipa: anyways
2019-05-17T15:39:14Z quipa: back to the scheme
2019-05-17T15:39:33Z quipa: so is GOOPS quite pervasive in Guile? or not so much
2019-05-17T15:39:42Z quipa: I saw coops in chicken
2019-05-17T15:39:55Z quipa: but in fact I think that's what I had problem getting installed
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2019-05-17T15:40:58Z gwatt: I'm not sure how much guile uses goops internally
2019-05-17T15:43:35Z Fr0stBit: Hello there! Are there any nice swank-like implementations for scheme?
2019-05-17T15:45:41Z amz3: I am putting together a list of important scheme resources to index in search engine, do you mind taking a look to https://paste.gnome.org/pcc4tqc30 and let me know if any thing is missing?
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2019-05-17T15:48:06Z deuill: http://www.scheme.dk/planet/
2019-05-17T15:48:19Z gwatt: amz3: do you want to include ecraven's benchmarks and r7rs coverage pages?
2019-05-17T15:50:21Z justinethier: http://justinethier.github.io/cyclone/
2019-05-17T15:51:34Z amz3: justinethier: tx
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2019-05-17T15:51:40Z amz3: tx all
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2019-05-17T15:53:15Z amz3: justinethier: cyclone is missing I think from https://github.com/schemedoc/implementation-metadata/issues/3
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2019-05-17T15:57:14Z justinethier: amz3: It is, thanks for entering the issue
2019-05-17T15:58:26Z justinethier: Good to know also, was not aware of this effort
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2019-05-17T18:26:09Z amz3: I pushed in production the thing, it crawling. Here is the list of domain / subdomains it will index
2019-05-17T18:26:10Z amz3: https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/guile-gotofish/tree/master/roots.txt
2019-05-17T18:27:50Z amz3: again let me know If I missing something. I also would like to index all the github repositories.
2019-05-17T18:28:03Z amz3: s/github/git and similar/
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2019-05-17T20:15:27Z amz3: where is the archive of http://www.scheme.dk/planet/ I can see only the first page
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2019-05-17T22:00:46Z ski: amz3 : <http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/>,<http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/>,<https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pdf>,<https://mumble.net/~campbell>,<http://okmij.org/ftp/> ?
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2019-05-17T22:01:04Z ski . o O ( <http://www.xs4all.nl/~hipster/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt>,<http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/syntax-rules.pdf>,<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=87it8db0um.fsf%40radish.petrofsky.org> )
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2019-05-17T22:20:00Z deuill: amz3, hmmm, not sure there is an archive.
2019-05-17T22:20:03Z deuill: Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/
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2019-05-17T22:32:24Z deuill: It might be possible to pick out links from the feeds that feed that collection, though.
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2019-05-17T23:02:11Z amz3: The code doesn't support .txt and .pdf for the time being, I doesn't support feeds (rss or atom)
2019-05-17T23:02:22Z amz3: only html and xhtml..
2019-05-17T23:07:58Z deuill: Meaning the sites from which the feeds are derived, sorry
2019-05-17T23:08:34Z deuill: I'm fairly sure only a couple are relevant anyways, Andy Wingo's blog, ProgrammingPraxis, the GUIX blog
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2019-05-18T07:13:08Z amz3: digging the guile-devel mailing leads to interesting results: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2017-03/msg00052.html
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2019-05-18T07:25:37Z oni-on-ion: =) i hear 3.0(dev) is speed increase. the API is very nice with guile
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2019-05-18T07:40:15Z amz3: it is a one man show
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2019-05-18T07:43:05Z oni-on-ion: oh =( =( really
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2019-05-18T08:02:07Z amz3: yeah, only one person work on guile 3.3 afaiu
2019-05-18T08:02:14Z amz3: s/3.3/3.0/
2019-05-18T08:02:38Z amz3: one might argue that improvements done in stable branch are also useful for the future, dunno.
2019-05-18T08:03:17Z amz3: on a more positive note, guile 3 is much faster, I benchmarked some ffi code that was twice faster than guile 2.2
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2019-05-18T08:13:43Z oni-on-ion: aw thats difficult to hear =( one person project is not easy .
2019-05-18T08:14:14Z oni-on-ion: yeah =) i really like guile's API as well
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2019-05-18T08:28:46Z amz3: oni-on-ion just to be precise guile 3 is mostly one person project, guile has several maintainers.
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2019-05-18T08:32:54Z amz3: racket on chez is also a one man doing
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2019-05-18T08:53:11Z oni-on-ion: ohh, so, when guile 3 is main then the other devs will jump on?
2019-05-18T08:53:40Z oni-on-ion: did not know racket on chez was one person as well. not to say the focus and discipline is not inspiring =)
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2019-05-18T19:00:51Z amz3: I am watching the crawler crawling and chicken seems to take a hit
2019-05-18T19:11:51Z amz3: http://search.scheme-lang.com/?query=racket
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2019-05-18T19:25:30Z wasamasa: amz3: you can just get the data set from chicken-doc
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2019-05-18T20:54:29Z amz3: ;;; (todos 593230)
2019-05-18T20:54:42Z amz3: wasamasa: yeah, but it is much more code
2019-05-18T20:55:13Z amz3: I plan at least to to have specific crawler for feeds and git repositories
2019-05-18T20:56:01Z amz3: and do someting for schemewiki history pages which shows up for no good reasons. I mean yes, TF-IDF is good score but it is an history page
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2019-05-19T15:20:01Z zalt: would it be a bad idea to learn scheme by reading r5rs?
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2019-05-19T15:21:12Z zalt: i already know some concepts from earlier, i mostly want to know more about the language and standard library
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2019-05-19T15:23:33Z pjb: zalt: this is how I would do it.
2019-05-19T15:24:06Z pjb: zalt: but then, it wouldn't be a bad idea to read htdp and sicp, and the manual of the scheme implementation you use (or several of them), and the SRFIs!
2019-05-19T15:24:37Z pjb: This is why https://schemers.org as a lot of reading materials.
2019-05-19T15:25:07Z pjb: r5rs is only 35 pages (more, for the formal specification, but you can skip it).
2019-05-19T15:25:36Z pjb: Then, nowadays we switched to r7rs. There are two parts r7rs-small and r7rs-big.  A tad bigger than the CL standard (or CLHS).
2019-05-19T15:25:49Z pjb: (1000+ pages)
2019-05-19T15:25:58Z zalt: damn, so i'm 50% through it? :D
2019-05-19T15:26:17Z zalt: why did it get bigger :(
2019-05-19T15:26:19Z pjb: Still very small, compared to say Android (3500 classes, 350000 methods, last time I looked) or iOS/macOS.
2019-05-19T15:26:44Z pjb: zalt: once you've read r5rs you'll know why r7rs is bigger :-0
2019-05-19T15:26:46Z pjb: :-)
2019-05-19T15:27:00Z pjb: network, GUI, json, FFI, stuff…
2019-05-19T15:27:09Z pjb: threads.
2019-05-19T15:27:25Z zalt: hmmm
2019-05-19T15:29:14Z zalt: what about r6rs?
2019-05-19T15:32:58Z dalz: r7rs-small is still pretty... well, small. 88 pages total, including formal stuff.
2019-05-19T15:33:17Z pjb: zalt: r6rs was an error.
2019-05-19T15:33:41Z zalt: lol
2019-05-19T15:33:56Z pjb: At least, a lot of people disliked it. So even before it was completed, work on r7rs started…
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2019-05-19T18:43:48Z jcowan: pjb: Really?  Not that I know of.
2019-05-19T18:47:45Z Zipheir: Hah.
2019-05-19T18:48:36Z Zipheir: Also, r7rs-large obviously isn't complete, so saying it's '1000+ pages' is quite misleading.
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2019-05-19T18:50:43Z pjb: How is it misleading? 1000+ means size>1000
2019-05-19T18:50:50Z jcowan: That was a guesstimate of mine, looking at the average length of a SRFI and the number of proposed SRFIs.
2019-05-19T18:50:51Z pjb: it can 10000 or 100000.
2019-05-19T18:50:57Z jcowan: pjb: Hardly.
2019-05-19T18:51:07Z jcowan: I would say that 2000 is the upper bound of 1000+.
2019-05-19T18:51:11Z pjb: ok.
2019-05-19T18:51:57Z jcowan: Of course some of my proposals may be shot down by the (ever-varying) committee.
2019-05-19T18:52:17Z Zipheir: And this is a rant topic, but can we please stop the '[all of] R6RS was an error' snark?  It's completely unhelpful, especially to new schemers.
2019-05-19T18:53:55Z jcowan: Not only that, but a great deal of R6RS is surfacing one way or another in R7RS, both parts.
2019-05-19T18:54:28Z jcowan: R7RS would not have been passed so easily, or have the shape it does, if it weren't for R6RS.
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2019-05-19T20:53:13Z zalt: where are procedures like atom? null? documented?
2019-05-19T20:53:33Z wasamasa: atom? isn't in the standard
2019-05-19T20:53:43Z wasamasa: so you'll have to consult your implementation's docs
2019-05-19T20:54:10Z zalt: hmm, are there any standard procedures to do such type tests?
2019-05-19T20:54:37Z zalt: i'm trying to implement lat?
2019-05-19T20:54:47Z zalt: as an exercise
2019-05-19T20:55:05Z wasamasa: read the standard
2019-05-19T20:55:14Z wasamasa: scheme is a language of many implementations
2019-05-19T21:07:22Z rain1: zalt R5RS is a good source to learn scheme
2019-05-19T21:07:46Z rain1: what do you mean by lat?
2019-05-19T21:07:46Z zalt: yeah, i was able to do it using list?
2019-05-19T21:08:03Z zalt: it's something in the little schemer, it's a function that returns true if a list only contains atoms
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2019-05-19T21:08:48Z zalt: (lat? '(1 2 3)) ===> #t
2019-05-19T21:08:58Z zalt: (lat? '(1 '(2 4) 3)) ===> #f
2019-05-19T21:09:25Z dwdv: This is the impl:
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2019-05-19T21:09:27Z dwdv: (define (lat? lst)
2019-05-19T21:09:29Z dwdv:   (cond ((null? lst))
2019-05-19T21:09:31Z dwdv:         ((atom? (car lst)) (lat? (cdr lst)))
2019-05-19T21:09:32Z dwdv:         (else #f)))
2019-05-19T21:10:41Z zalt: isn't (atom? obj) just the negation of (list? obj)
2019-05-19T21:11:25Z rain1: oh list of atoms
2019-05-19T21:11:29Z rain1: you could use a higher order function  for this
2019-05-19T21:11:38Z rain1: define lat? as (list-of? atom?)
2019-05-19T21:12:49Z dwdv: Yeah, but: "atom? isn't in the standard"
2019-05-19T21:12:59Z zalt: yep :D
2019-05-19T21:13:39Z zalt: i'm tempted to jump to srfi-1 before reading the entire procedure section of R5RS
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2019-05-19T21:14:19Z dwdv: You could try this:
2019-05-19T21:14:24Z dwdv: (define (atom? x)
2019-05-19T21:14:25Z dwdv:   (and (not (pair? x))
2019-05-19T21:14:26Z dwdv:        (not (null? x))))
2019-05-19T21:15:39Z dwdv: Hm, keywords and symbols.
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2019-05-19T21:20:17Z zalt: what does the dot notation in lists exactly mean?, i kind of know what it does in lambda parameter lists, but in in plain lists?
2019-05-19T21:20:26Z zalt: (this is kind of asking what is a pair :D)
2019-05-19T21:20:51Z zalt: i know a list is approximately a head and something like a "next" pointer
2019-05-19T21:22:20Z zalt: but, how is (cdr '(1 . 5)) ===> 5 and (cdr '(1 5)) ===> '(5)
2019-05-19T21:22:46Z zalt: is it replacing the null sentinel at the end or something?
2019-05-19T21:26:38Z dwdv: Yes, check this out: https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/cons/
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2019-05-19T21:30:00Z zalt: thanks
2019-05-19T21:32:58Z dwdv: :)
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2019-05-19T22:46:14Z Zipheir: IIRC The Little Schemer shows you how to define lat?.
2019-05-19T22:46:27Z Zipheir: It's a very self-contained book.  You certainly don't need SRFIs for it.
2019-05-19T22:47:38Z Zipheir: And yes, dwdv's definition of atom? is precisely that given by Little Schemer.
2019-05-19T22:49:03Z zalt: i don't read, i jump around :D
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2019-05-19T22:51:16Z Zipheir: The Little Schemer explicitly tells you not to jump around :)
2019-05-19T22:52:03Z Zipheir: But it's a pretty simple book.  Mostly.
2019-05-19T22:52:18Z zalt: i bet i jumped that part too
2019-05-19T22:53:05Z zalt: i wonder, for a non trivial application, how do you deal with the problem of data organization
2019-05-19T22:53:28Z zalt: maybe my brain is too used to imperative languages, but, still
2019-05-19T22:53:44Z Zipheir: You mean in a Schemely way?
2019-05-19T22:53:58Z zalt: in any way, but yes, within scheme
2019-05-19T22:54:27Z Zipheir: It's a very general problem.
2019-05-19T22:54:48Z Zipheir: You'd have to give a more specific example to get a meaningful answer.
2019-05-19T22:55:31Z zalt: let's consider a trivial example, you want to define a 3d point, which is x, y, z, you'd use a list right?
2019-05-19T22:55:40Z Zipheir: Probably a record.
2019-05-19T22:55:59Z zalt: records?, an implementation specific thing?
2019-05-19T22:56:12Z Zipheir: SRFI-9, now R7RS, provides define-record-type.
2019-05-19T22:56:17Z Zipheir: They're standard.
2019-05-19T22:56:45Z zalt: hmm, that's nice
2019-05-19T22:57:11Z Zipheir: Generally they're implemented as vectors with a type tag, so access is faster than hacking your own records out of lists.
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2019-05-19T22:58:13Z Zipheir: e.g. (define-record-type point (make-point x y z) point? (x point-x) (y point-y) (z point-z)) would define an immutable point type.
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2019-05-19T22:58:33Z Zipheir: Then (point-x (make-point 2 5 3)) ; => 2
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2019-05-19T23:04:04Z zalt: that's nice
2019-05-19T23:04:17Z zalt: my brain can only think in terms of records
2019-05-19T23:04:45Z zalt: (or equivalent things hashtable-based scripting languages use)
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2019-05-19T23:05:58Z Zipheir: The important thing is to understand that records *could* just be lists underneath, at the cost of some worse time complexity.  It doesn't matter, it's an abstract datatype type.
2019-05-19T23:06:07Z Zipheir: s/ type//, oops.
2019-05-19T23:07:26Z zalt: that's right, what matters to me is the existence of some sort of datatype that is somewhat self documenting
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2019-05-19T23:14:50Z zalt: i wonder how do other lisps approach this
2019-05-19T23:15:32Z Zipheir: CL has define-record, which is similar, although it's fancier than define-record-type.
2019-05-19T23:15:37Z Zipheir: Scheme also has R6RS records.
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2019-05-20T01:01:03Z aeth: Zipheir: there isn't a define-record in the CL standard, do you mean defstruct?
2019-05-20T01:02:28Z Zipheir: Oops, yes.
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2019-05-20T06:48:27Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-05-20T08:15:26Z zalt: is it okay to rely on autoformatting when you're a noob :P
2019-05-20T08:16:16Z zalt: in other languages like C, manually indenting things is usually better, but i think in lisps it's more common to do it automatically?
2019-05-20T08:18:39Z aeth: in C manually indenting things is usually better because you go to one file, with one style standard, and then go to another file, with another style standard, and configuring the autoformatter to handle both of them at the same time is too much work
2019-05-20T08:18:48Z aeth: in Lisps there's basically only one way to do it
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2019-05-20T08:19:53Z zalt: aeth, not only because of style inconsistency in different files, even in the same file sometime indenting certain things differently makes more sense
2019-05-20T08:20:30Z zalt: those cases are like 1% of the lines, but still they matter :D
2019-05-20T08:21:49Z aeth: in Lisps it's probably closer to 0.01% and it's only when you write (or use) a really elaborate macro (or, worse, a reader macro!)
2019-05-20T08:22:25Z aeth: The last time that happened to me is writing a flet-like macro in Common Lisp
2019-05-20T08:22:34Z Zipheir: The only real rule of indentation is: stick to one style.
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2019-05-20T08:23:15Z zalt: in other languages it seems to be "know when to break the rules"
2019-05-20T08:24:24Z Zipheir: I've never heard that, and wouldn't recommend it.
2019-05-20T08:24:24Z zalt: but still, you should break the indentation rules consistently :D
2019-05-20T08:24:36Z aeth: The rules are pretty regular, but they're regular in a way that's much easier for a machine to keep track of than a human. e.g. Emacs Lisp indents its if differently than Common Lisp and Scheme, but what's really going on is that in Emacs Lisp their if is (if then &body else) instead of (if then else)
2019-05-20T08:26:02Z Zipheir: zalt: A lot of emacs users like paredit https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit  I just use autoindent in vi, but it auto-parens can save time.
2019-05-20T08:26:28Z zalt: i can't think of many examples, but in C your style (or lack of it) can be incredibly complex, sure it can be taught to a computer, but you'd spend a lot of time doing so
2019-05-20T08:26:29Z aeth: and generally, a smart editor will know the definition and e.g. take &body as a hint to indent it differently
2019-05-20T08:27:17Z zalt: for example how do you indent && and ||, how do you indent large expressions, how do you indent huge function calls, etc..
2019-05-20T08:27:32Z Zipheir: zalt: Agreed, syntax-aware editor modes seem like too much trouble to me.
2019-05-20T08:27:53Z aeth: zalt: There is, essentially, one Common Lisp style (for e.g. comments, indentation, where to put the closing parens) and it is incredibly uniform, used nearly everywhere by nearly everyone. Emacs Lisp and Schemes are usually in line with this, but sometimes deviate, especially with how many leading ";"s to put in a comment
2019-05-20T08:28:13Z Zipheir: It's annoying to have to get emacs to understand what's a special form in all your favorite Scheme libraries, for example.
2019-05-20T08:28:16Z aeth: zalt: In a sense, the One True Common Lisp style kind of enforced that style on Emacs Lisp and Scheme because most editors/IDEs will share s-expression code like that
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2019-05-20T08:29:33Z Zipheir: Some good Scheme (e.g. the better SRFIs) deviates quite a bit from the "One True" style.
2019-05-20T08:30:01Z zalt: i think the existence of a one true style is largely because s expressions are inherently simpler and more elegant
2019-05-20T08:30:33Z zalt: (maybe not simpler to a human, than infix expressions, but still they're simpler)
2019-05-20T08:30:47Z aeth: no, you can have just as many issues, such as ( foo bar baz ) instead of (foo bar baz), the use of CamelCase, the use of underscore_in_variables, the use of )s on their own line, etc.
2019-05-20T08:30:52Z aeth: or even tabs.
2019-05-20T08:30:56Z aeth: You just (almost) never see these
2019-05-20T08:31:15Z aeth: I don't even see uppercase mixed in at all outside of Typed Racket.
2019-05-20T08:31:35Z aeth: The one thing that's not universal is some styles mix in []s
2019-05-20T08:31:36Z Zipheir: Yeah, camelcase is unlispy.
2019-05-20T08:33:21Z aeth: What kills camelCase and underscore_case is that you can use kebab-case and it's easier to type. Common Lisp also has weird issues with camelCase. Tabs probably quickly fell out of favor because Lisps have very long idiomatic names and two spaces are great for that sort of thing if you have line limits.
2019-05-20T08:33:22Z zalt: and objectively inferior, according to research
2019-05-20T08:33:58Z Zipheir: Hah, kebab-case.  I'm going to use that name in the future.
2019-05-20T08:34:10Z aeth: )s on their own line actually were a thing historically in some cases, and I think they're still idiomatic in AutoLisp (or whatever AutoCAD uses) and a few other places
2019-05-20T08:34:26Z aeth: it's easier when you're writing it on paper
2019-05-20T08:36:01Z aeth: But you could easily wind up with something like ( let (\n\t( foo 42 )\n\t( bar 43 )\n\t)\t( + foo bar )\n)
2019-05-20T08:36:12Z aeth: You will just *never* see code like that
2019-05-20T08:36:52Z aeth: oops, there should be a newline before the last tab
2019-05-20T08:42:49Z aeth: Zipheir: were you referring to SRFI 110? https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-110/srfi-110.html
2019-05-20T08:43:48Z Zipheir: aeth: Hah, no.  SRFI 1
2019-05-20T08:44:26Z Zipheir: SRFI-110 is quite weird.
2019-05-20T08:44:50Z Zipheir: afk, sleep o/
2019-05-20T08:45:12Z zalt: what's the good way of handling errors in scheme?, exceptions?
2019-05-20T08:45:44Z zalt: and before exceptions were a thing, was there a common way of dealing with this?
2019-05-20T08:47:27Z ecraven: exceptions have been a thing for a looong time
2019-05-20T08:47:36Z ecraven: though in Scheme they are often called conditions
2019-05-20T08:48:53Z aeth: What Lisp had them first?
2019-05-20T08:49:19Z ecraven: CL at least has them, I'm guessing its predecessors too
2019-05-20T08:49:23Z ecraven: lisp machine lisp definitely does
2019-05-20T08:49:48Z aeth: yeah, they're about as core to CL as CLOS in terms of distinguishing CL as a language
2019-05-20T08:50:41Z pjb: ecraven: I don't think predecessors had a condition system, or even condition objects.   They may have had error handler functions.
2019-05-20T08:51:19Z pjb: Did lisp machine lisp got them under the influence of CL?
2019-05-20T08:51:27Z ecraven: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html seems relevant
2019-05-20T08:51:49Z ecraven: pjb: that might be the case.. unfortunately I only learned about these things long after they were invented
2019-05-20T08:52:23Z ecraven: that link mentions a New Error System in Zetalisp
2019-05-20T08:52:35Z ecraven: influenced by Multics PL/I
2019-05-20T08:52:51Z pjb: Right Ken Pittman mentions "Many of the ideas in this paper were inspired by the "New Error System" for the Symbolics computers [Weinreb 83]. "
2019-05-20T08:53:32Z pjb: and there's this reference: D.L. Weinreb, Signalling and Handling Conditions, Document #990097, Symbolics, Inc., Cambridge, MA, 1983.
2019-05-20T08:54:08Z pjb: "Maclisp has only an error system, not a condition system."
2019-05-20T08:54:44Z pjb: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Exceptional-Situations-1990.html
2019-05-20T08:58:55Z zalt: would you use signals even if the event aren't truly exceptional?
2019-05-20T08:59:38Z zalt: for example, you're parsing argv, the caller expects an integer, you find the argument and it is not a string, or you don't find the argument
2019-05-20T08:59:53Z amz3: exception support in the scheme I have tried is not perfect,
2019-05-20T08:59:55Z amz3: .
2019-05-20T09:00:27Z zalt: would a return value based api make sense in this case?, (i know in other cases like searching for an index in a list returning #f makes more sense)
2019-05-20T09:01:27Z ecraven: there are many choices.. -1 or 1 more than the maximum index are also choices other languages make
2019-05-20T09:03:11Z pjb: zalt: you can, in CL.
2019-05-20T09:03:49Z zalt: pjb, what do you mean?, why can't i do this in scheme too
2019-05-20T09:04:21Z pjb: There are no condition in r5rs, and I haven't read r7rs yet, so no, and I don't know.
2019-05-20T09:04:22Z amz3: you can return multiple values
2019-05-20T09:04:33Z pjb: There's a big difference.
2019-05-20T09:04:40Z zalt: amz3, that's what i was thinking about
2019-05-20T09:05:01Z amz3: zalt: btw, exception for data validation is an anti-pattern
2019-05-20T09:05:02Z pjb: With conditions, the outer program can intervene where the condition is signaled.  It's kind of like a coroutine hook.
2019-05-20T09:05:07Z zalt: pjb, yes, i was reading chicken's condition module documentation
2019-05-20T09:05:28Z pjb: So the question is whether there's a HANDLER-BIND and a SIGNAL.
2019-05-20T09:05:38Z ecraven: pjb: r7rs has conditions
2019-05-20T09:05:45Z ecraven: well, something called conditions ;)
2019-05-20T09:05:46Z pjb: handler-bind let you run code when SIGNAL is called, without unwinding the stack.
2019-05-20T09:05:50Z amz3: zalt: since the error must be catched anyway. I mostly use exception via 'error' only for non-recoverable errors like programming errors
2019-05-20T09:06:19Z zalt: amz3, yep, or "very impossible conditions"
2019-05-20T09:06:21Z zalt: :D
2019-05-20T09:09:06Z amz3: like uuid clash ;)\
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2019-05-20T09:10:51Z zalt: can i use symbols like some kind of enum?, for example returning '(#f 'argument-not-found)
2019-05-20T09:11:30Z zalt: what kind of uses are there for them other than executing data
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2019-05-20T09:14:58Z ecraven: the problem with symbol-as-enum is they are not a closed set, it's hard to prevent people from passing in *other* symbols not part of the enum
2019-05-20T09:15:37Z aeth: ecraven: that's not too different from the problem with error codes, though
2019-05-20T09:15:57Z aeth: sure, right now it's 1 through 3421 but you can easilly assign meaning to 3422. At least with symbols the new ones won't clash
2019-05-20T09:16:25Z ecraven: just saying, it's something to keep in mind
2019-05-20T09:16:46Z pjb: for example:; https://pastebin.com/EbwJ8PFj
2019-05-20T09:17:30Z aeth: that's an old meme!
2019-05-20T09:36:14Z zalt: wait, when you have a list like: '(foo bar), both foo and bar are already quoted?
2019-05-20T09:36:38Z zalt: but when you do '('foo 'bar) they're double quoted
2019-05-20T09:36:38Z pjb: yes.
2019-05-20T09:36:41Z pjb: Yes.
2019-05-20T09:37:00Z pjb: is there a quote operator in scheme?
2019-05-20T09:37:02Z aeth: The quote basically follows the distributive property. So '(foo bar) is roughly equivalent to (list 'foo 'bar) and might be exactly equivalent in certain Schemes
2019-05-20T09:37:25Z zalt: hmm, i thought they'd be evaluated at the spot before being "added" to the list
2019-05-20T09:37:25Z pjb: in CL, '(foo bar)   is (quote (foo bar))     '('foo 'bar)  is (quote ((quote foo) (quote bar)))
2019-05-20T09:37:54Z aeth: zalt: if you want to evaluate them, you have to use quasiquote and unquote, e.g. `(,foo ,bar) with the added advantage that you can do `(foo ,bar baz)
2019-05-20T09:37:56Z zalt: but i guess that's what quasiquotation is for
2019-05-20T09:38:22Z zalt: yes, i read about it in r5rs, but only now it's starting to make sense
2019-05-20T09:39:00Z aeth: quasiquote behaves as you would expect in macros, which is that the unquoted parts are rare so they require the special distinction, in this case the ,
2019-05-20T09:40:27Z zalt: what's slightly confusing is
2019-05-20T09:40:40Z zalt: 1 == '1
2019-05-20T09:41:02Z zalt: but ''1 is (quote 1)
2019-05-20T09:41:10Z wasamasa: quote returns its argument unevaluated
2019-05-20T09:41:16Z wasamasa: that's all that happens here
2019-05-20T09:41:25Z aeth: zalt: it only evaluates once, I guess
2019-05-20T09:41:31Z wasamasa: (quote 1) is 1, (quote (quote 1)) is (quote 1)
2019-05-20T09:41:49Z aeth: zalt: wait until you have nested quasiquotes
2019-05-20T09:42:02Z aeth: beyond two I don't think anyone understands!
2019-05-20T09:42:11Z zalt: lol
2019-05-20T09:49:02Z pjb: == doesn't mean anything.
2019-05-20T09:49:31Z zalt: i meant equivalent to
2019-05-20T09:49:41Z pjb: which is meaningless.
2019-05-20T09:49:47Z pjb: '1 IS (quote 1)    '1 EVALUATES to 1
2019-05-20T09:50:13Z pjb: more precisely, '1 IS READ AS (quote 1)
2019-05-20T09:51:18Z pjb: There are all sorts of equivalences: eqv? equal? string=? etc…
2019-05-20T09:51:36Z zalt: pjb, i mean (+ '1 '2) is (+ 1 2)
2019-05-20T09:51:43Z pjb: wrong
2019-05-20T09:51:46Z ecraven: pjb: most of them are simple though, string=? is just a specialisation of equal? for strings
2019-05-20T09:52:02Z pjb: (equal? ' (+ '1 '2) '(+ 1 2)) #| --> #f |#
2019-05-20T09:52:45Z pjb: zalt: you mean EVALUATES TO THE SAME THING AS   not   IS !
2019-05-20T09:52:54Z pjb: Say what you mean.
2019-05-20T09:53:02Z pjb: or speak smurf.
2019-05-20T09:54:08Z aeth: zalt: "=>" is a good alternative to "is", at least when written
2019-05-20T09:54:24Z aeth: (+ '1 '2) => (+ 1 2) => 3
2019-05-20T09:54:58Z aeth: perhaps "becomes" is a good word
2019-05-20T09:55:02Z pjb: => means evaluates to; it's not an alternative to is, it's an alternative to evaluates to.
2019-05-20T09:55:20Z pjb: becomes is magical!
2019-05-20T09:55:26Z aeth: well, in that line I guess there needs to be a partial evaluation
2019-05-20T09:55:33Z aeth: since (+ '1 '2) evaluates to 3
2019-05-20T09:55:34Z pjb: It doesn't becomes like this. It evaluates to.
2019-05-20T09:55:54Z zalt: you can't prove that '1 is not 1!
2019-05-20T09:56:13Z pjb: (equal? (quote '1) (quote 1)) #| --> #f |#
2019-05-20T09:56:14Z zalt: i see your point though, '1 is immediately evaluated to 1 :D
2019-05-20T09:56:14Z pjb: proven.
2019-05-20T09:56:33Z pjb: Note that I use quote to prevent the evaluates to part.
2019-05-20T09:56:51Z zalt: THAT'S NOT THE SAME THING
2019-05-20T09:56:52Z zalt: lol
2019-05-20T09:57:13Z zalt: you're comparing ''1 to '1, i'm comparing '1 to 1 :P
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2019-05-20T10:01:28Z zalt: well, given that (quote (quote 1)) is not (quote 1), maybe it follows that (quote 1) is not 1
2019-05-20T10:02:20Z wasamasa: I think the argument is about separation of the read from the evaluation phase
2019-05-20T10:02:42Z zalt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9PY_3E3h2c
2019-05-20T10:03:05Z wasamasa: quote has the fun side effect of using objects created at read-time
2019-05-20T10:03:19Z wasamasa: this leads to odd behavior if you do things like mutating list literals
2019-05-20T10:05:58Z aeth: and that is why "'(foo bar) is roughly equivalent to (list 'foo 'bar)"
2019-05-20T10:06:19Z aeth: '(foo bar) is a literal
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2019-05-20T10:21:26Z pjb: zalt: you're wrong. You didn't understand how scheme works.
2019-05-20T10:22:18Z pjb: zalt: when you evaluate (equal? (quote '1) (quote 1)), the rule is to first evaluate the arguments, in any order.
2019-05-20T10:22:30Z pjb:  (quote '1) #| --> '1 |#  (quote 1) #| --> 1 |#
2019-05-20T10:22:45Z pjb: zalt: so what is called, is the function bound to equal? with as argument '1 and 1  which is what you wanted.
2019-05-20T10:25:20Z zalt: i know the the arguments will be evaluated, but what you seem to be ignoring on purpose is that '1 evaluates to 1, something that is different from "how scheme works", 'a doesn't evaluate to a
2019-05-20T10:26:18Z pjb: Yes, 'a evaluates to a !
2019-05-20T10:26:23Z pjb: It's the definition of quote!
2019-05-20T10:26:26Z pjb: 'a #| --> a |#
2019-05-20T10:27:10Z zalt: lol, OK, but not in the sense of (let ((a 1)) (+ a 2))
2019-05-20T10:27:22Z pjb: You're making no sense.
2019-05-20T10:29:13Z zalt: yes i am making sense, a evaluates to something in this example, 'a evaluates to something else, but in the same example it wouldn't make a difference if you used 1 or '1
2019-05-20T10:29:25Z pjb: In (let ((a 42)) (list 'a a))  'a evaluates to a,   a evaluates to 42  and (list 'a a) evaluates to (a 42)
2019-05-20T10:29:53Z pjb: zalt: oh, so you have problems with language in general, not only with scheme. Sorry.
2019-05-20T10:30:07Z pjb: You meant to say 'a doesn't evaluate to the same as a.
2019-05-20T10:30:09Z pjb: Of course.
2019-05-20T10:30:29Z zalt: yes, and '1 evaluates to the same thing as 1
2019-05-20T10:30:38Z pjb: indeed.
2019-05-20T10:30:48Z zalt: you see?, something different from "how scheme works"
2019-05-20T10:31:17Z pjb: But two different things can evaluate to the same thing, that doesn't make them the same.
2019-05-20T10:31:35Z zalt: i know
2019-05-20T10:31:42Z pjb: (* 2 2) and (+ 2 2) both evaluate to 4. but (* 2 2) is a multiplication expression, while (+ 2 2) is an addition expression. Two different things.
2019-05-20T10:38:11Z zalt: since you haven't quoted them, i can argue they're the same thing
2019-05-20T10:40:08Z zalt: the way i read that is: "the result of multiplying 2 by 2" is "the result of adding 2 to 2", a true statement
2019-05-20T10:44:36Z pjb: zalt: this is your error.
2019-05-20T10:44:56Z pjb: I know that a lot of scheme tutorial make this error.
2019-05-20T10:45:07Z pjb: (* 2 2) is a list of 3 elements.  It is not the number 4.
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2019-05-20T10:46:33Z zalt: according to who?, i know for sure scheme interpreters don't see it that way
2019-05-20T10:46:47Z pjb: scheme interpreter perform an evaluation step.
2019-05-20T10:47:00Z aeth: probably best to just avoid "is" than to pick one time in the process to be "is"
2019-05-20T10:47:05Z pjb: You need to prevent this evaluation, but quote is not the only way to do it.
2019-05-20T10:47:16Z pjb: aeth: sure.
2019-05-20T10:47:36Z pjb: We could say that "(* 2 2)" reads as (* 2 2) which is a list of 3 elements.
2019-05-20T10:47:42Z zalt: anyways what we seem to be arguing about is the "default level of quotation of s expressions when written in irc"
2019-05-20T10:48:13Z pjb: and that "\"(* 2 2)\"" reads as "(* 2 2)" which is a string of 7 characters.
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2019-05-20T10:48:44Z pjb: zalt: this is important, because lisp programs are written as lisp data. So you must exclude evaluation by default.
2019-05-20T10:49:02Z aeth: I'd probably put it as something like... (* 2 2) starts out as #\( #\* #\2 #\Space #\2 #\) then becomes (list * 2 2) then becomes 4
2019-05-20T10:49:12Z aeth: it doesn't have to be a string in the middle
2019-05-20T10:49:20Z pjb: aeth: which is utterly wrong.
2019-05-20T10:49:34Z aeth: oops I left out some spaces
2019-05-20T10:49:39Z aeth: it was hard to read anyway
2019-05-20T10:49:54Z pjb: #\( #\* #\2 #\Space #\2 #\) becomes a list of the symbol named "*" and the integer valued 2 and the integer valued 2.
2019-05-20T10:50:15Z pjb: And it becomes nothing after being read, unless you evaluate it.
2019-05-20T10:50:53Z aeth: hmm, okay, I left out one space, between #\* and the first #\2
2019-05-20T10:50:53Z pjb: Instead of evaluating it, you could display it, or you could compile it, or you could derivate it, or do anything you want with it.
2019-05-20T10:51:16Z pjb: (* 2 2) could as well become 0 if you use d/dx as evaluator instead of eval.
2019-05-20T10:51:32Z aeth: pjb: I was assuming REPL or a read source file. That is an assumption, of course.
2019-05-20T10:52:11Z pjb: You cannot be constantly evaluating when you're talking about things.
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2019-05-20T10:53:57Z aeth: Well, the way I'd put it is that objects in prose are implicitly quoted. If I'm talking about '(+ 1 1) you have to do ''(+ 1 1) in your REPL to get it. Interestingly, in Racket that's not the case. I guess it's print in the REPL adds an extra quote back in, so '(+ 1 1) prints '(+ 1 1)
2019-05-20T10:54:07Z aeth: s/it's print/its print/
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2019-05-20T10:54:13Z aeth: too much quoting on my mind
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2019-05-20T13:52:02Z NickHoover: hi
2019-05-20T13:53:01Z NickHoover: I have a recursive funtion which builds a list. how can I build a list, so the elements aren't "reversed"? it's (cons (car ...) (cdr ...))
2019-05-20T13:53:19Z amz3: NickHoover: usually, you end your loop with (reverse! out)
2019-05-20T13:53:29Z amz3: if you really care about the order
2019-05-20T13:54:00Z amz3: NickHoover: you use a named let?
2019-05-20T13:55:24Z NickHoover: no
2019-05-20T13:55:51Z amz3: anyway, at the end of the recursive behavior, you should call reverse! (or reverse)
2019-05-20T13:56:54Z amz3: wasamasa: yes, downloading the archive from the mailing list would be nicer to the server, but it is also more code for me which I did not do yet.
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2019-05-20T14:35:32Z NickHoover: well, the recursive call is more complicated than that
2019-05-20T14:35:37Z NickHoover: let me show you
2019-05-20T14:38:02Z zalt_: i wonder, is this the wrong way of doing it? https://www.ideone.com/Ualr2z
2019-05-20T14:38:15Z NickHoover: https://pastebin.com/JMjBGXuh
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2019-05-20T14:39:19Z zalt_: does my solution require O(n) stack space?
2019-05-20T14:41:12Z NickHoover: probably not the sweetest Scheme code, but it converts ("foo" "bar" "!baz" "quux") to ("foo" "bar" "baz quux")
2019-05-20T14:41:24Z NickHoover: except the order is wrong
2019-05-20T14:41:40Z NickHoover: because of cons
2019-05-20T14:42:22Z NickHoover: I tried to use append instead, but append doesn't work with empty lists
2019-05-20T14:42:47Z NickHoover: (append '() 4) -> 4 and not (4)
2019-05-20T14:43:16Z ggole: The first code doesn't seem correct: it will call cdr on lis if (null? lis), whereas it should just return it.
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2019-05-20T14:44:18Z zalt_: how do you tell whether a procedure is tail recursive
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2019-05-20T14:44:38Z z0d: zalt_: it calls itself as the last step
2019-05-20T14:45:02Z zalt_: with "no pending operations" ?
2019-05-20T14:45:23Z ecraven: NickHoover: the last parameter should be a list, then you'll get back '(4)
2019-05-20T14:45:23Z zalt_: so mine isn't :P
2019-05-20T14:45:29Z ecraven: rudybot: (append '() '(4))
2019-05-20T14:45:39Z ecraven: rudybot: eval (append '() '(4))
2019-05-20T14:45:40Z rudybot: ecraven: error: with-limit: out of time
2019-05-20T14:45:44Z rudybot: ecraven: your sandbox is ready
2019-05-20T14:45:44Z rudybot: ecraven: ; Value: '(4)
2019-05-20T14:46:24Z NickHoover: that will probably help me, thanks
2019-05-20T14:52:03Z zalt_: is this one tail recursive? http://paste.debian.net/1082306/
2019-05-20T14:52:55Z zalt_: it outputs the thing reversed
2019-05-20T14:54:10Z z0d: it is
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2019-05-20T15:02:28Z zalt_: i was reading about the y combinator earlier, it's incredibly confusing
2019-05-20T15:09:54Z zalt_: maybe slightly less confusing than this http://paste.debian.net/1082311/
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2019-05-20T16:13:54Z rain1: the internals of the Y combinator are confusing
2019-05-20T16:13:58Z rain1: but the idea of it is quite simple
2019-05-20T16:14:35Z rain1: it just takes a function with a unknown parameter and turns it into a recursive one
2019-05-20T16:15:36Z Riastradh: Best to start with the U combinator.
2019-05-20T16:15:39Z Riastradh: (U f) = (f f)
2019-05-20T16:16:20Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (begin (define (U f) (f f)) ((U (lambda (f) (if (< n 2) 1 (* n ((U f) (- n 1)))))) 5))
2019-05-20T16:16:21Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: r6rs: must contain a `library' form (for a library) or start with `import' (for a top-level program) <NEWLINE>   in: (#%module-begin)
2019-05-20T16:16:29Z Riastradh: rudybot: init r5rs
2019-05-20T16:16:33Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2019-05-20T16:16:34Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (begin (define (U f) (f f)) ((U (lambda (f) (if (< n 2) 1 (* n ((U f) (- n 1)))))) 5))
2019-05-20T16:16:35Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: n: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2019-05-20T16:16:48Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (begin (define (U f) (f f)) ((U (lambda (f) (lambda (n) (if (< n 2) 1 (* n ((U f) (- n 1))))))) 5))
2019-05-20T16:16:48Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 120
2019-05-20T16:17:13Z Riastradh: The Y combinator is just a trick to avoid writing (U f) every time you want to invoke yourself recursively.
2019-05-20T16:17:39Z Riastradh: (Y f) = (U (lambda (f) (f (lambda (x) ((U f) x)))))
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2019-05-20T16:57:32Z ggole: You don't need U once you have the self argument, you can just use that
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2019-05-20T18:26:22Z ski: zalt_ : "does my solution require O(n) stack space?" -- yes (unless your implementation does TCMC, which i think is not common) (that's referring to your former paste. the latter is tail recursive, but presumably needs to reverse the final accumulator)
2019-05-20T18:31:27Z zalt_: ski, yes, i know handling tail recursion matters a lot in other cases, but i think not in this one, no?
2019-05-20T18:32:02Z zalt_: i mean, the first one that's not tail recursive is probably better :D
2019-05-20T18:32:32Z zalt_: unless there's a magical way of reversing lists that i'm not aware of
2019-05-20T18:33:04Z ski: better in what sense ?
2019-05-20T18:33:29Z zalt_: umm, from code simplicity point of view and probably performance
2019-05-20T18:34:06Z ski: well, certainly the former. probably not the latter, barring a SSC
2019-05-20T18:34:27Z ski: however, it probably only starts to matter for long lists
2019-05-20T18:35:04Z zalt_: SSC?
2019-05-20T18:35:14Z ski thinks of LeoNerd's TCMC/LCMC implementation
2019-05-20T18:35:40Z ski: Sufficiently Smart Compiler (should probably be s/Compiler/Implementation/, to be sufficiently vague/general)
2019-05-20T18:36:21Z LeoNerd: Whowhatme?
2019-05-20T18:37:08Z ski: LeoNerd : istr you experimented with TCMC/LCMC in a Scheme context, no ?
2019-05-20T18:39:42Z ggole: There was a patch to add TRMC to OCaml, so it has been done for a strict functional language. Perhaps what is needed is Sufficiently Motivated Implementors.
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2019-05-20T18:40:54Z LeoNerd: ski: Oh, .. a little bit. Mostly in my toy impl., it was more of a thought experiment
2019-05-20T18:41:32Z ski: zalt_ : the basic idea with TCMC/LCMC (Tail/Last Call Modulo Cons(tructor). the "Last" terminology comes from logic programming which, iiuc, independently discovered tail/last calls and their importatance for iterative processes (looping/recursion)) is that in `(define (my-loop ...) (if (...) (..base case..) (cons (...) (my-loop ...))))', you'd build the `cons' cell *before* the recursive call, ..
2019-05-20T18:42:06Z ski: zalt_ : .. and make sure to pass a reference to its tail/`cdr' to that call so that it can place its result directly into the tail position
2019-05-20T18:42:54Z ski: LeoNerd : *nod*. it's just that i haven't heard of anyone else trying this out in a Scheme (or more generally, functional programming) context
2019-05-20T18:43:52Z LeoNerd: ski: My idea was increasingly running away with lots of special cases and fun things, that all fall apart if you try to introduce call/cc
2019-05-20T18:43:56Z LeoNerd: Because call/cc always breaks everything
2019-05-20T18:44:27Z Zipheir: What was the problem whose "solution requires O(n) stack space"?
2019-05-20T18:44:40Z ski: ggole : oh, right. ty for reminding me about OCaml. i ought to have mentioned that OCaml already has (local) support for constructing result into parts of constructors. however, i don't think it scales. perhaps this patch you're talking about would scale better, have a link ?
2019-05-20T18:44:44Z ggole: Yeah, there's an implied linearity condition that call/cc or other stack copying breaks.
2019-05-20T18:45:31Z ggole: gallium.inria.fr/seminaires/transparents/20141027.Frederic.Bour.pdf
2019-05-20T18:45:35Z ski: (the extension i was thinking about was "Recursive definitions of values" at <https://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/extn.html#sec234>)
2019-05-20T18:45:47Z ggole: There's some material from a talk
2019-05-20T18:46:14Z ggole: I can probably point to the actual branch if you want to stare at the code.
2019-05-20T18:46:20Z ski: Zipheir : <https://www.ideone.com/Ualr2z>, followed up by <http://paste.debian.net/1082306/>
2019-05-20T18:46:23Z LeoNerd: You could maybe do some sort of speculative optimisation for "well if we don't see a call/cc then this is fine" but the moment someone does that, revert out and resume older behaviour
2019-05-20T18:46:26Z LeoNerd: Maybe that would work
2019-05-20T18:46:36Z LeoNerd: But at that point my code was getting way too hairy, and also unpredictable to use
2019-05-20T18:46:57Z ggole: That does sound pretty nasty.
2019-05-20T18:47:28Z LeoNerd: This is what the delimited continuation folks keep saying.. the idea being that if you bound the edges of your continuation state, it becomes easier to deal with
2019-05-20T18:47:33Z ggole: iirc the OCaml people had some stack copying issues as well - not with the native OCaml implementation, but with extensions like distcc
2019-05-20T18:47:48Z LeoNerd: A regular call/cc can't know how far "back" it has to save, so it does everything, which is often too much but the code can't know how much to do
2019-05-20T18:47:49Z Zipheir: ski: ty
2019-05-20T18:47:50Z ski *nod* re `call/cc' seeming to interact badly with TCMC/LCMC (or even doing it manually with `set-cdr!' .. or, implementing `letrec' with mutation, iirc)
2019-05-20T18:47:54Z LeoNerd: DC makes that explicit from the programmer
2019-05-20T18:48:25Z ski: ggole : the code might perhaps be interesting as well. if it's not too much trouble
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2019-05-20T18:50:28Z zalt_ realizes (cdr '()) is broken
2019-05-20T18:50:44Z ski: ggole : what was `distcc' ?
2019-05-20T18:50:46Z zalt_: i think someone mentioned this, i should be returning the list instead :D
2019-05-20T18:50:51Z ski nods re del. conts.
2019-05-20T18:50:51Z ecraven: zalt_: you expect it to return something and not raise an error?
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2019-05-20T18:51:09Z zalt_: ecraven, i just didn't pay attention
2019-05-20T18:51:31Z ggole: Seems to be at https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml/pull/181
2019-05-20T18:51:31Z ski: ggole : ty for the slides link, regardless
2019-05-20T18:51:39Z zalt_: but it seems it's doing accidental error handling :P
2019-05-20T18:51:51Z ggole: distcc (I think I have the name right?) was an implementation of delimited continuations for OCaml
2019-05-20T18:52:00Z ggole: I believe it worked by low-level stack copying.
2019-05-20T18:52:01Z Zipheir: Yeah, the tail-call list-delete seems overcomplicated.  Just recurse.
2019-05-20T18:52:50Z ggole: No, I don't. It is called delimcc.
2019-05-20T18:53:05Z ecraven: distcc is the distributed c compiler, I think
2019-05-20T18:53:30Z zalt_: what makes me think the first one that's not tail recursive could be faster is that (cdr lis) part
2019-05-20T18:53:31Z ggole: Yeah, I think my lexer got a bit confused.
2019-05-20T18:53:43Z ski: ggole : ty
2019-05-20T18:54:00Z zalt_: i don't know how scheme garbage collectors work, but i imagine it's possible for an implementation to not have to copy the rest of the list
2019-05-20T18:54:21Z zalt_: also, not having to reverse that part
2019-05-20T18:55:26Z ski: LeoNerd : istr you were also handling things like `(+ increment (my-loop ...))' by effectively storing an accumulator in the continuation, using associativity of `+'
2019-05-20T18:55:30Z zalt_: i mean, suppose you're deleting an index of a list of 10 elements, the worst case would be if you deleted index 9, the best one is if you deleted index 0
2019-05-20T18:55:44Z Zipheir: zalt_: Unless you're trying to optimize this, you're overthinking.
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2019-05-20T18:56:00Z zalt_: i'm not!, i'm just wondering how things work behind the scene :P
2019-05-20T18:56:12Z ggole: zalt_: there's no need to copy the unmodified tail of the list, if that's what you are wondering
2019-05-20T18:56:22Z zalt_: i know scheme isn't particularly used because it's fast
2019-05-20T18:56:23Z LeoNerd: ski: I didn't get as far as implementing it, only as far as thinking how I would, and it was already complex enough
2019-05-20T18:56:32Z ggole: If the old list is still around then they share the structure
2019-05-20T18:56:40Z ecraven: zalt_: Scheme can be plenty fast ;)
2019-05-20T18:56:45Z zalt_: ggole, yes, that's exactly what i'm wondering, which is nice
2019-05-20T18:57:30Z zalt_: ecraven, yeah being compiled and all :D
2019-05-20T18:57:51Z Zipheir: zalt_: Exactly correct, being compiled and all.
2019-05-20T18:58:12Z ski: LeoNerd : iow, `(my-loop ...)' is implicitly expanded to `(+ 0 (my-loop ...))' where `0' is the initial value of the accumulator (being the (left) neutral element of the associative operation `+'). and then when `(my-loop ...)' expands to a wrapped recursive call `(+ increment (my-loop ...))' we really have `(+ 0 (+ increment (my-loop ...)))', ..
2019-05-20T18:58:26Z ski: LeoNerd : .. which by associativity is `(+ (+ 0 increment) (my-loop ...))' is `(+ increment (my-loop ...))', where `increment' is the new value of the accumulator. and so on ..
2019-05-20T18:58:46Z ski: LeoNerd : ok. it's still an interesting idea :)
2019-05-20T18:59:20Z ski: ggole : ok
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2019-05-20T19:00:35Z ski: zalt_ : "If the old list is still around then they share the structure" -- unless you intend to (possibly) use mutation on that list, of course. but Scheme generally encourages uses immutable data structures, except when otherwise would be more reasonable
2019-05-20T19:00:42Z LeoNerd: ski: Oh sure.. if I had more of a reason to do it I'd probably continue. It was just a toy idea I had no real practical interest in, so I stopped
2019-05-20T19:00:54Z Zipheir: ski: You can also use SRFI-116 ilists.
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2019-05-20T19:01:42Z zalt_: ski, hmm, mutation, good idea
2019-05-20T19:01:46Z zalt_: :P
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2019-05-20T19:01:52Z Zipheir: Hah, or not.
2019-05-20T19:02:28Z Zipheir: Actually, we should all be using ilists and SRFI-135 texts except when we actually need mutation.
2019-05-20T19:02:48Z ski: Zipheir : ah, hadn't seen this SRFI before. makes sense
2019-05-20T19:03:41Z amz3: crawler is cralwing...
2019-05-20T19:04:23Z Zipheir: amz3: Sounds creepy.
2019-05-20T19:04:39Z amz3: Zipheir: sorry, I am talking about my search engine..
2019-05-20T19:04:50Z Zipheir: amz3: I know :)
2019-05-20T19:05:24Z amz3: I mean to say, it's down for maintenance :)
2019-05-20T19:06:36Z amz3: the code is creepy... I will need to clean it up, but I hope this time it will work. At least, I figured a way to allow to query for query="scheme" even if it takes some time, it doesn't timeout. I have an idea for an optimisation that will make it faster (aka. less slow)
2019-05-20T19:08:40Z amz3: I could explain but it would be boring.
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2019-05-20T23:35:20Z oni-on-ion: i heard a caml
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2019-05-20T23:45:59Z erkin: What noise does a caml make?
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2019-05-21T00:06:43Z oni-on-ion: squarble
2019-05-21T00:07:43Z erkin: Fascinating.
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2019-05-21T01:28:28Z dTal: is there a standard system of addressing position within s-expressions that captures what (line, column) captures in plain text files? The sort of thing you'd use for a cursor datastructure, or structured diffs.
2019-05-21T01:28:49Z adu: sounds like a zipper
2019-05-21T01:29:03Z adu: https://wiki.haskell.org/Zipper
2019-05-21T01:29:49Z dTal: dem haskellers again
2019-05-21T01:31:04Z dTal: I keep getting torn between "Haskell is clearly the most advanced language in the world and we should all switch to it immediately" and "what the hell is a monad and why the hell can't anyone explain it to me in plain English"
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2019-05-21T01:31:52Z adu: I prefer Rust over Haskell
2019-05-21T01:31:56Z dTal: but at any rate the community certainly seems to be a rich source of high level idioms found nowhere else
2019-05-21T01:32:26Z adu: everyone should try Haskell for the osmosis, then move on to other languages, IMHO
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2019-05-21T01:33:16Z dTal: it's true what they say about programming languages changing the way you think
2019-05-21T01:33:33Z adu: obviously
2019-05-21T01:33:54Z dTal: and not just because of differences in technical affordance, but also culture
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2019-05-21T01:34:42Z adu: I think the ones that influenced my thoughts the most are: Scheme, Prolog, Haskell, Python, and Kubernetes
2019-05-21T01:34:50Z dTal: Python's available abstractions are extremely similar to Scheme, but since I started playing with Scheme I program Python rather differently
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2019-05-21T01:36:40Z dTal: Kubernetes is a language?
2019-05-21T01:36:40Z adu: Python isn't just a strange syntax for Scheme, it's got a lot of Smalltalk-ish OOP stuff, like __call__
2019-05-21T01:37:44Z dTal: yes, the OOP stuff is richer (and finally convinced me of the merits of the approach)
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2019-05-21T01:38:36Z adu: Kubernetes has a language for it's config files, which are in YAML, but the way that operators work (which aren't strictly part of kubernetes), the YAML ecosystem is starting to resemble a compiler toolchain
2019-05-21T01:39:15Z adu: and the YAML that everyone writes today is essentially Kubernetes ASM
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2019-05-21T01:40:30Z siraben: dTal:  re: addressing position, maybe nested cars and cdrs?
2019-05-21T01:40:36Z siraben: caaddaaddar for instance
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2019-05-21T01:41:51Z adu: dTal: community isn't always all it's cracked up to be
2019-05-21T01:42:46Z dTal: siraben: that's the "standardized" name for a function to access a value at a particular point, but it makes no sense for a data structure
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2019-05-21T01:43:11Z siraben: dTal:  haskellers would point to finger trees then
2019-05-21T01:43:17Z adu: dTal: I met one Haskeller who decided that there needed to be a standard representation of integers as types, and so made a library where One = Succ Zero, Two = Succ Succ Zero, etc
2019-05-21T01:43:30Z siraben: http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~ross/papers/FingerTree.pdf
2019-05-21T01:43:42Z dTal: however it does offer the insight that lists are made of pairs, and pairs only have two values, and therefore you can represent a location in a tree as a single binary number
2019-05-21T01:43:55Z siraben: Integers as types, so Succ becomes a type constructor???
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2019-05-21T01:44:11Z siraben: Or do you mean something like "data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat"
2019-05-21T01:44:56Z siraben: Type-level programming in Haskell becomes Prolog-esque
2019-05-21T01:45:16Z adu: siraben: yeah, that's the one
2019-05-21T01:45:29Z siraben: Ah, so it's still value-level programming
2019-05-21T01:45:33Z siraben: Albeit a bad representation
2019-05-21T01:46:21Z adu: I think it was a way to side-step the strict separation between types and values, and yet approximate something that only Agda could do
2019-05-21T01:46:42Z oni-on-ion: =p
2019-05-21T01:46:59Z adu: like Vec t 3
2019-05-21T01:47:07Z siraben: Speaking of Haskell, I wrote a R5RS interpreter by reading the denotational semantics of the R5RS spec
2019-05-21T01:47:09Z siraben: A while back
2019-05-21T01:47:09Z siraben: https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot
2019-05-21T01:47:34Z oni-on-ion: just now a question arised in #haskell how to represent integers "2.2 3.2 4.2" etc. the type system and constants/data is still at odds (pun)
2019-05-21T01:47:39Z siraben: The memory is unfortunately stored as a Haskell list, and there's no GC so it eats memory crazily
2019-05-21T01:47:59Z siraben: Sort of weird to implement set! in a purely functional language
2019-05-21T01:48:12Z adu: siraben: does it have CPS?
2019-05-21T01:48:31Z siraben: adu:  it follow the denotational semantics spec exactly, I just hand translated the greek rules
2019-05-21T01:48:36Z siraben: So there's call/cc
2019-05-21T01:48:42Z adu: I'm starting to notice CPS everywhere now, like in gcc, rust, I think everyone secretly uses CPS now
2019-05-21T01:49:11Z siraben: GCC uses SSA transformation which is basically CPS, IIRC
2019-05-21T01:49:51Z adu: Like I could find the source code to _start() { main() } in Rust, and so I disassembled a command-line binary, and it was something like _start(argc, argv) { main(%rip, argc, argv) }
2019-05-21T01:51:11Z siraben: Rust has a good macro system I've heard
2019-05-21T01:51:24Z adu: hygenic, I think
2019-05-21T01:52:07Z siraben: I wish there was a more "stripped down" version of Rust, the stdlib is huge
2019-05-21T01:52:15Z siraben: stripped down for learning for instance
2019-05-21T01:52:22Z adu: I've been using #[no_std] a bit
2019-05-21T01:52:32Z adu: it's really experimental, requires nightly branch
2019-05-21T01:53:13Z siraben: if you want to get all type-theoretic there's this paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1903.00982
2019-05-21T01:53:27Z siraben: "Oxide: The Essence of Rust"
2019-05-21T01:53:32Z adu: but even that is a bit too much for my taste, I would want Rust without traits
2019-05-21T01:53:58Z adu: but I could just... not use that feature in my code...
2019-05-21T01:54:06Z siraben: What would you have instead off traits?
2019-05-21T01:54:13Z siraben: Do you not use derive Debug?
2019-05-21T01:54:23Z adu: I love traits, I just want to reimplement UEFI in Rust
2019-05-21T01:54:38Z siraben: Coming from Haskell it's sort of a relief to see a typeclass-like system in Rust
2019-05-21T01:54:47Z adu: and UEFI is oddly enough, composed entirely of traits
2019-05-21T01:54:54Z oni-on-ion: tried rust, landed on ocalm.
2019-05-21T01:55:00Z oni-on-ion: *
2019-05-21T01:55:07Z adu: ocaml?
2019-05-21T01:55:09Z oni-on-ion: yep
2019-05-21T01:55:17Z siraben: oni-on-ion:  OCaml isn't a systems programming language though
2019-05-21T01:55:33Z oni-on-ion: just learning module stuff this week. quite interesting; dont see that anywhere, still seeing how to apply it in structure
2019-05-21T01:55:48Z oni-on-ion: siraben, neither is haskell ? what about MirageOS
2019-05-21T01:55:54Z siraben: I wonder if I should learn OCaml if I already know SML
2019-05-21T01:55:59Z adu: It wouldn't surprize me if people had already written quite a few UEFI modules in Rust
2019-05-21T01:56:05Z oni-on-ion: did not know we were talking system language sry =)
2019-05-21T01:56:18Z oni-on-ion: rust is very impressive but like haskell i can only handle so much ::::::::::'s
2019-05-21T01:56:31Z siraben: How do you mean ::
2019-05-21T01:56:35Z siraben: In type signatures?
2019-05-21T01:56:51Z oni-on-ion: every 2-3 lines theres double colons. its a very popular character in most langs.
2019-05-21T01:56:58Z siraben: Granted, Rust has quite a bit of verbosity when it comes to declaration function type signatures
2019-05-21T01:57:06Z adu: :: is illegal syntax in rust
2019-05-21T01:57:08Z siraben: Especially because the compiler can't infer types all the time due to lifetimes
2019-05-21T01:57:14Z oni-on-ion: i understand that :: is related to mathematical notation
2019-05-21T01:57:27Z siraben: :: is used to access methods of a class, no?
2019-05-21T01:57:31Z adu: o wait, I totally forgot about imports
2019-05-21T01:57:32Z oni-on-ion: its a visual syntax and typing thing =)
2019-05-21T01:57:46Z adu: I never use them in code, only in use/imports
2019-05-21T01:57:46Z oni-on-ion: Rect::new().borrow().unbox().etc()
2019-05-21T01:57:56Z siraben: String::new()
2019-05-21T01:57:58Z oni-on-ion: adu, ah, really ? not needed in types ?
2019-05-21T01:58:15Z adu: I mean I guess I don't construct stuff very often
2019-05-21T01:58:24Z siraben: oni-on-ion:  Rust doesn't use :: in type declarations
2019-05-21T01:58:44Z oni-on-ion: three things i can't handle, and will never be able to:  ":keyword" in CL, "::" for types/modules, and "end end end" for control flow.
2019-05-21T01:58:58Z oni-on-ion: (scheme/objc/smalltalk is great with "keyword:" =)
2019-05-21T01:59:03Z siraben: I've seen : in mathematics for type signatures, but Haskell uses that for cons already so :: is used
2019-05-21T01:59:19Z oni-on-ion: hehe, ocaml uses :: for cons. funny that it barely needs type sigs.
2019-05-21T01:59:24Z siraben: Idris goes the other way and uses : in type signatures, and :: for cons
2019-05-21T01:59:40Z siraben: SML as well
2019-05-21T01:59:45Z oni-on-ion: going to check out idris again. (using ocaml for native speed and code size)
2019-05-21T01:59:47Z ski: oni-on-ion : "i understand that :: is related to mathematical notation" -- not really that much, no
2019-05-21T02:00:12Z oni-on-ion: ski, hmm, that is how i justified it -- then i wonder why everyone (perl c++ etc) using ::'s ?
2019-05-21T02:00:29Z siraben: I find SML to be sort of the Scheme of the ML world, quite small, distills the core of the language family
2019-05-21T02:00:38Z siraben: It has a nice type system
2019-05-21T02:00:50Z ski: siraben : "Idris goes the other way and uses : in type signatures" -- that's the traditional type systems way
2019-05-21T02:00:59Z siraben: Right
2019-05-21T02:01:04Z oni-on-ion: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33350721/what-does-mean-in-rust   -- adu perhaps i misunderstood the module usage to be typing
2019-05-21T02:01:05Z ski: (which probably is related to `f : A ---> B' in math)
2019-05-21T02:01:39Z oni-on-ion: ocaml and idris are same there. haven't found anything about ocaml that i dont like and it is very natural to work with (coming from C, lisp, haskell, smalltalk)
2019-05-21T02:02:11Z oni-on-ion: but to top it off i cant live without sexp so there is that for object serialization
2019-05-21T02:02:27Z siraben needs to revisit module functors in Standard ML
2019-05-21T02:02:37Z oni-on-ion: (so using the same type constructor trick like in haskell, can use sexp as a quick and simple DSL)
2019-05-21T02:02:57Z oni-on-ion: (Camera (Vector3 0. 0. 0.) ...) etc
2019-05-21T02:03:00Z adu: oni-on-ion: no, you're right, there's Vec::new() in Rust
2019-05-21T02:03:09Z siraben: oni-on-ion:  inductive types are useful in ML languages
2019-05-21T02:03:15Z oni-on-ion: siraben, ohh whats inductive ?
2019-05-21T02:03:28Z siraben: oni-on-ion:  data List a = Nil | Cons a List
2019-05-21T02:03:35Z oni-on-ion: i miss haskell laziness a bit. but type inference is much more helpful in ocaml
2019-05-21T02:03:45Z oni-on-ion: siraben, recursive type ?
2019-05-21T02:03:50Z siraben: data Tree a = Leaf a | Node (Tree a) (Tree a)
2019-05-21T02:03:53Z siraben: oni-on-ion:  yeah
2019-05-21T02:04:08Z oni-on-ion: type sexp = Atom of string | List of sexp list
2019-05-21T02:04:18Z oni-on-ion: cool cool
2019-05-21T02:04:29Z ski: dTal : "what the hell is a monad and why the hell can't anyone explain it to me in plain English" -- we could try, but you'd probably not believe us. better to see for yourself, seeing examples. also, people make monads a bigger deal than they are. it's "just" an abstract data structure interface, sortof like "priority queue", okay ?
2019-05-21T02:04:29Z oni-on-ion: ski, was that DCG ?
2019-05-21T02:04:45Z siraben: And even better, Standard ML/OCaml compilers can optimize some types away
2019-05-21T02:04:45Z ski really dislikes "using the same type constructor trick like in haskell" ..
2019-05-21T02:05:04Z siraben: like vector3 Int Int Int, which becomes a 3-tuple
2019-05-21T02:05:09Z oni-on-ion: ski, would you like some more explanation ? using sexp for data storage and transfer.
2019-05-21T02:05:25Z siraben: Compiling with Continuations has good examples of how ML compilers do this sort of stuff
2019-05-21T02:05:25Z ski: oni-on-ion : "inductive" = "variant/sum type, but possibly recursive"
2019-05-21T02:05:41Z oni-on-ion: siraben, my vec is actually: type vec3 = float*float*float
2019-05-21T02:05:51Z siraben: oni-on-ion:  so that will get optimized into a 3-tuple
2019-05-21T02:05:56Z siraben: Ah wait
2019-05-21T02:05:59Z siraben: it's just an alias nevermind
2019-05-21T02:06:06Z ski: oni-on-ion : "coinductive" = "record/product type, but possibly recursive" (more or less a object type, an "interface")
2019-05-21T02:06:42Z oni-on-ion: i am so far using records/functors/tuple, staying away from objects and classes
2019-05-21T02:07:00Z siraben: Can streams be defined coinductively in OCaml?
2019-05-21T02:07:12Z oni-on-ion: but for the DSL. it is used for scene graph, and processed serially usually
2019-05-21T02:07:25Z ski: dTal : perhaps you'd enjoy "What the hell are Monads?" by Noel Winstanley in 1992-02 at <http://www-users.mat.uni.torun.pl/~fly/materialy/fp/haskell-doc/Monads.html> -- possibly the first monad tutorial, apart from papers. and still good, imo
2019-05-21T02:07:47Z oni-on-ion: hmmm. well siraben , in haskell it was just "read :: Type" to pull from sexp
2019-05-21T02:08:29Z ski: (it emphasizes that the immediate utility of monads is to avoid certain kinds of boiler-plate code. it's an abstraction for not having to repeat such code over and over, possibly getting it wrong here and there, introducing subtle bugs that are hard to find ..)
2019-05-21T02:08:34Z siraben: dTal:  re: wth is a monad, it's hard to explain in plain english
2019-05-21T02:08:49Z ski: oni-on-ion : what about DCG ?
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2019-05-21T02:09:03Z siraben: It's like trying to explain to a random person on a street what a function is, you give examples (functions can sort, functions can compute stuff etc.) and they get the wrong impression
2019-05-21T02:09:06Z siraben: To them it seems like voodoo
2019-05-21T02:09:26Z siraben: Like ski  said it's an abstraction
2019-05-21T02:10:13Z oni-on-ion: ski, the statement above with '--->'
2019-05-21T02:10:20Z ski: (one problem with monads is that people don't tend to have recognized this code pattern in other languages. and so there's little to compare to. another problem is that, in Haskell, people try to understand the `Monad' type class before understanding type classes, before understanding type functions, before understanding polymorphism, before ...)
2019-05-21T02:10:31Z oni-on-ion: monad like FSM without S
2019-05-21T02:10:35Z oni-on-ion: optionally
2019-05-21T02:10:38Z siraben: ski:  agreed
2019-05-21T02:10:40Z ski: oni-on-ion : no, that's just a declaration that `f' is a function with domain `A' and codomain `B'
2019-05-21T02:10:52Z oni-on-ion: ski, ah ok =)
2019-05-21T02:11:00Z siraben: One sort of needs the motivation for monads to actually get it
2019-05-21T02:11:31Z ski: yes. and one of the best ways to get the motivation is probably to see situations where they can help
2019-05-21T02:11:55Z siraben: Parsing is a good one, so is exception handling (i.e. Error or Maybe)
2019-05-21T02:11:57Z oni-on-ion: basically just I/O . but here is an article i would like to share
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2019-05-21T02:12:08Z siraben: oni-on-ion:  https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/papers/marktoberdorf/baastad.pdf
2019-05-21T02:12:19Z oni-on-ion: http://lambda-diode.com/programming/monads-are-a-class-of-hard-drugs     -- reading this 2wk ago, reminded of why i could not continue the project with Haskell.
2019-05-21T02:12:32Z siraben: Store at the Wadler paper long enough and you'll be enlightened
2019-05-21T02:12:34Z siraben: stare*
2019-05-21T02:12:40Z oni-on-ion: siraben, yep ty; had plenty of time with them =)
2019-05-21T02:12:50Z siraben: Oh that's good then
2019-05-21T02:13:03Z oni-on-ion: yep. see link i posted and my reasoning for having left haskell
2019-05-21T02:13:33Z oni-on-ion: though it is still beautiful, probably the most so, and i love it. but i want to make something
2019-05-21T02:13:51Z siraben: I'm still trying to figure out how to do things in Haskell people in imperative languages do so easily
2019-05-21T02:13:52Z siraben: Especially with data structures
2019-05-21T02:14:12Z oni-on-ion: ah just do functional record update, its real fun
2019-05-21T02:15:13Z ski: siraben : you can do mutable things, if you want to
2019-05-21T02:15:23Z siraben: ski:  how so?
2019-05-21T02:15:28Z ski: (but it's usually nicer, if you can avoid it)
2019-05-21T02:15:39Z ski: siraben : just allocate a mutable box, or a mutable array ?
2019-05-21T02:15:43Z ski: like in Scheme ?
2019-05-21T02:15:47Z oni-on-ion: just do functional record update.
2019-05-21T02:16:13Z siraben: ski:  ah, will look into that
2019-05-21T02:16:18Z oni-on-ion: with FSM. its really clean for the code and structure and mixes well with I/O and monad
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2019-05-21T02:18:05Z siraben: It's usually in competitive programming where one notices the deficiencies of purely functional programming
2019-05-21T02:18:20Z siraben: e.g. https://codeforces.com/contest/1110/problem/F
2019-05-21T02:19:01Z oni-on-ion: on quick glance i would say that is looking for something where FP fails or does not excel
2019-05-21T02:19:09Z ski: rudybot: eval (define my-box (box 0)) (define (tick) (let* ((n (unbox my-box)) (_ (set-box! my-box (+ n 1)))) n)) (list (tick) (tick) (tick))
2019-05-21T02:19:09Z rudybot: ski: ; Value: '(0 1 2)
2019-05-21T02:19:13Z oni-on-ion: in regular day to day work there is a right tool for the job
2019-05-21T02:19:25Z siraben: Right, of course.
2019-05-21T02:19:52Z ski: siraben : in Haskell, look into `IORef' and `IOArray' (using `IO' monad). or, if you want a pure interface, `STRef' and `STArray' (using `ST' monad)
2019-05-21T02:19:52Z oni-on-ion: ocaml is surprisingly natural and terse when mixing imperative and functional, barely notice it, never ran into any walls
2019-05-21T02:19:53Z siraben: I still like Haskell, but wouldn't use it for tricky algorithmic problems where the best imperative solutions are known
2019-05-21T02:20:00Z siraben: in competitive programming prompts*
2019-05-21T02:20:25Z siraben: ski:  Ah, thanks. What's the performance like of those interfaces?
2019-05-21T02:20:28Z oni-on-ion: thats where one could use a monad to get imperative (ie List monad )
2019-05-21T02:20:35Z ski: an FSM is just a bunch of mutually tail-recursive functions, no ?
2019-05-21T02:20:57Z siraben: oni-on-ion:  Yes, but Lists have O(n) access time
2019-05-21T02:21:57Z siraben: ski:  I'll see if I can rewrite my Haskell Scheme interpreter to use  IOArrays instead of Lists
2019-05-21T02:22:09Z siraben: Then I'd have to implement some sort of GC as well
2019-05-21T02:23:06Z oni-on-ion: ski, well its an update function, that returns the new state given the current state
2019-05-21T02:23:25Z oni-on-ion: ski, which is nice! for example, saving history; automatic undo and/or backtracking/memoization as applicable
2019-05-21T02:23:53Z oni-on-ion: i like the conceptual power of its simplicity, for modeling mutation
2019-05-21T02:29:31Z ski: siraben : why'd you need to implement GC ?
2019-05-21T02:30:09Z ski isn't quite sure what oni-on-ion is talking about atm
2019-05-21T02:30:32Z ski: (what's an update function, e.g. ?)
2019-05-21T02:32:33Z siraben: ski: because when the store runs out of memory for the Scheme program, it needs to do a GC
2019-05-21T02:33:31Z oni-on-ion: ski, FSM finite state machine
2019-05-21T02:33:33Z ski: in a simple implementation, you'd just meta-circular off the Haskell store
2019-05-21T02:35:10Z ski: oni-on-ion : there was some nice slides that explained how you could write a DSL, like with state names and arrows and stuff, and it'd be a macro in (iirc) Racket, which would translate into corresponding tail-recursive jumping between mutually recursive procedures
2019-05-21T02:35:17Z ski: but i can't seem to find them, atm
2019-05-21T02:35:42Z siraben: ski:  https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot/blob/ee452df1fae9a18f8fd19eee0efab97b4d58beaa/src/SchemeTypes.hs#L99
2019-05-21T02:36:10Z siraben: A store is a list of (Values, Bool)
2019-05-21T02:36:19Z siraben: Where Bool indicates if the value is immutable or not
2019-05-21T02:36:56Z siraben: Just below that you see the environment type, which is a list of (Identifier, Location) where location is the index into the store
2019-05-21T02:37:46Z ski: oh .. abuse of `Show' :/
2019-05-21T02:37:50Z siraben: So a simple GC would sweep through the environment, marking all the cells that are referred, then mark the non-referred cells as free
2019-05-21T02:38:08Z siraben: ski:  abuse how?
2019-05-21T02:38:49Z ski: instead of using `Int's as locations, couldn't you use `IORef's ?
2019-05-21T02:39:07Z siraben: I suppose I could, I didn't know about IORef at the time of writing
2019-05-21T02:39:14Z siraben: It was just a direct translation of the spec
2019-05-21T02:40:08Z ski: siraben : `Show' is mainly intended for debugging, not for custom pretty-printing formats. `Show' is intended to generate a string representation of a *Haskell* expression that, when evaluated in an appropriate environment, will compute a value that's equivalent to the starting one
2019-05-21T02:40:24Z siraben: ski: but then I'd have to change evaluation semantics of, for instance, set!, right? https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot/blob/ee452df1fae9a18f8fd19eee0efab97b4d58beaa/src/SchemeEval.hs#L68
2019-05-21T02:40:40Z siraben: ski:  heh, then it is Show abuse
2019-05-21T02:40:47Z siraben: I do have a way to read lisp forms though
2019-05-21T02:40:47Z ski: if you want custom pretty-printing, you can use some other type class, or perhaps no type class at all
2019-05-21T02:40:52Z oni-on-ion: monads are a class of hard drugs. its a good article. especially on point with how monads trickle into every other part ofthe program.
2019-05-21T02:41:07Z oni-on-ion: (this is where FSM and functional update come in.)
2019-05-21T02:44:51Z ski: "functional" update is great
2019-05-21T02:45:08Z ski: (btw, it hasn't really got much to do with functions)
2019-05-21T02:45:24Z siraben: It looks like I'll just need to rewrite the assign and update functions to use IOArrays
2019-05-21T02:45:41Z siraben: ski:  Aren't IOArrays bounded?
2019-05-21T02:47:32Z siraben: Appears to be so, so when I execute "cons" I could run out of memory
2019-05-21T02:54:48Z ski: you misunderstood
2019-05-21T02:54:51Z oni-on-ion: ski, yeah, not sure of another term
2019-05-21T02:55:34Z ski: i didn't mean to allocate a single `IOArray', for your Scheme store. i meant to allocate one `IORef' or `IOArray', for each mutable piece of data that you need
2019-05-21T02:55:36Z oni-on-ion: i have a feeling that haskell is not the right choice if you are looking at IOArray =P
2019-05-21T02:56:21Z siraben: ski:  So, then instead of locations into the store I have IORef?
2019-05-21T02:56:25Z ski: yes
2019-05-21T02:56:59Z ski: and instead of passing around the store explicitly, it's hidden in `IO' (or `ST s' if you go that way .. but presumably you also want other primitives to do I/O, so ..)
2019-05-21T02:57:13Z siraben: And then I use modifyIORef to modify the refs?
2019-05-21T02:57:20Z ski: but i don't think the Scheme den. sem. ever reuses an old state, does it ?
2019-05-21T02:57:34Z ski: e.g.
2019-05-21T02:57:46Z siraben: Well, it passes the store around in the denotational semantics
2019-05-21T02:57:46Z ski: or just `readIORef' and `writeIORef'
2019-05-21T02:57:50Z ski nods
2019-05-21T02:58:00Z ski: (that's not what i asked about, though)
2019-05-21T02:58:09Z siraben: In this way, memory won't pile up?
2019-05-21T02:58:48Z siraben: What happens when I "change" something in the environment, by passing around a new environment with a different IORef?
2019-05-21T02:59:13Z siraben: e.g. if a was bound to location 4, and now I pass an environment where a is bound to location 5 (which was created by allocating a new IORef)
2019-05-21T02:59:14Z ski: the old mutable cell will get GCed, if the `IORef' referring to it is no longer reachable
2019-05-21T02:59:23Z siraben: Ah, and that's done by Haskell?
2019-05-21T02:59:31Z ski: by the Haskell implementation
2019-05-21T03:00:21Z siraben: The function new is actually implementation defined, in the spec
2019-05-21T03:00:26Z siraben: It takes a store and returns a location
2019-05-21T03:00:33Z siraben: So in this case, I can just return a new IORef
2019-05-21T03:00:40Z siraben: Right?
2019-05-21T03:00:52Z oni-on-ion: set the ref to ref something else
2019-05-21T03:01:10Z oni-on-ion: (the new version) its the same as functional update except with a level of indirection
2019-05-21T03:01:19Z oni-on-ion: shrug
2019-05-21T03:03:00Z ski: siraben : anyway, as i said, it's basically just like using boxes .. except you need your monad when accessing what's "inside" (conceptually it's not inside, anymore than your values are not "inside" that `Int' list index)
2019-05-21T03:04:41Z siraben: ski:  doesn't this mean all the functions that touch the store now need to be written in do notation?
2019-05-21T03:04:48Z siraben: And written monadically?
2019-05-21T03:05:43Z ski: `do'-notation is just syntactic sugar. a macro, if you like
2019-05-21T03:06:18Z siraben: Hm.
2019-05-21T03:07:01Z ski: you can use monadic combinators. or idiomatic/applicative combinators in many cases, probably (or even the functor combinator)
2019-05-21T03:08:50Z oni-on-ion: or just ocaml
2019-05-21T03:09:09Z siraben: ski:  Alright, I'll rewrite it using IORefs at a later point
2019-05-21T03:09:17Z siraben: Seems like a good idea
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2019-05-21T03:16:35Z Zipheir: Wow, so much non-Scheme discussion.
2019-05-21T03:18:06Z oni-on-ion: yea whats with that , these things are simpler or nonexistant in scheme as well.
2019-05-21T03:19:14Z Zipheir: Oh, I like monads and applicatives in Scheme plenty.
2019-05-21T03:21:11Z adu: scheme has monads?
2019-05-21T03:21:21Z aeth: "A monad is a certain type of endofunctor. For example, if F and G are a pair of adjoint functors, with F left adjoint to G, then the composition G o F is a monad." Hey I know what G o F is!
2019-05-21T03:21:22Z Zipheir: BTW, the 'Monads as Hard Drug' article seems to boil down to two points: (A) Haskell programs are slow, (B) raw types can get ugly.
2019-05-21T03:21:38Z aeth: Wikipedia on math is basically "if you took a class in it, it's a good review". I'm quoting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(category_theory)#Overview
2019-05-21T03:21:48Z Zipheir: adu: Sure, they're easy to define.
2019-05-21T03:22:16Z Zipheir: aeth: You're always so helpful. :-p
2019-05-21T03:22:26Z adu: half the fun of a monad is getting veterans and newbies to talk about something
2019-05-21T03:23:00Z Zipheir: adu: Oleg has a nice example here: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/monad-in-Scheme.html
2019-05-21T03:23:14Z adu: oleg, that's the guy I was talking about
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2019-05-21T03:26:44Z Zipheir: There's also a SRFI by jcowan in the works: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ContextsCowan.md
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2019-05-21T03:30:39Z oni-on-ion: Zipheir, my main take away is how monads 'bleed' all over the place
2019-05-21T03:31:42Z Zipheir: But I fail to see how that's a 'monad problem'.  It can happen with lots of types.
2019-05-21T03:32:02Z siraben: aeth:  OTOH wikipedia does a good job of teaching history
2019-05-21T03:32:28Z siraben: but yes, learning mathematics from wikipedia is masochistic at best
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2019-05-21T03:39:40Z Zipheir: oni-on-ion: I certainly agree with that post that "monads are now used mostly for intellectual terrorism".
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2019-05-21T04:36:48Z ski: Zipheir : well, that's what category terrorists would tend to do, no ?
2019-05-21T04:40:53Z Zipheir: lol
2019-05-21T04:41:58Z Zipheir: Alternatively, and more commonly, monads are used as an infinite source of righteous ignorance.
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2019-05-21T15:53:16Z ecraven: r6rs wants all definitions in a library before all "statements". is that the same in r7rs?
2019-05-21T15:53:35Z ecraven: or do I have to (define dummy0 ..) (define dummy1 ...) to get around that?
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2019-05-21T18:16:55Z duncanm: hey hey, ecraven!
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2019-05-21T18:37:23Z ecraven: hey duncanm  ;)
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2019-05-21T20:40:59Z zalt_: i'm trying to understand what call/cc does, suppose A was: (lambda (B) ...), iiuc it calls A and passes it this other function B. inside A's body doing (B 42) is like a goto that makes 42 the result of the (call/cc ...) expression?
2019-05-21T20:41:40Z gwatt: Yes.
2019-05-21T20:42:17Z zalt_: what happens if you don't call (B ), but instead normally return a result, is that ok?
2019-05-21T20:42:21Z gwatt: yep
2019-05-21T20:42:33Z zalt_: hmm, nice, thanks
2019-05-21T20:42:56Z gwatt: When it gets really interesting is if you save B so you can access it outside of the (call/cc ...)
2019-05-21T20:43:32Z zalt_: what?, what the hell
2019-05-21T20:43:55Z zalt_: what happens then
2019-05-21T20:44:19Z gwatt: You time travel
2019-05-21T20:44:53Z gwatt: You go back to the point in the program where the call/cc expression was called
2019-05-21T20:45:11Z zalt_: that sounds so weird, i only got my head around this by thinking in terms of something like setjmp longjmp
2019-05-21T20:45:45Z gwatt: That's how setjmp/longjmp work.
2019-05-21T20:46:50Z zalt_: but what you're saying sounds like, calling B on a point that existed before B even existed
2019-05-21T20:47:26Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (letrec ((time-travel #f) (return (call/cc (lambda (tt) (set! time-travel tt) #f)))) (time-travel 1234) return)
2019-05-21T20:47:30Z rudybot: gwatt: your sandbox is ready
2019-05-21T20:47:39Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (letrec ((time-travel #f) (return (call/cc (lambda (tt) (set! time-travel tt) #f)))) (time-travel 1234) return)
2019-05-21T20:47:40Z rudybot: gwatt: error: with-limit: out of time
2019-05-21T20:47:50Z rudybot: gwatt: error: with-limit: out of time
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2019-05-21T20:50:43Z gwatt:  alright, 3rd time's the charm:
2019-05-21T20:50:47Z gwatt: rudybot: eval (let*((time-travel #f)(return(call/cc(lambda(tt)(set! time-travel tt)#f))))(if return return(time-travel 1234)))
2019-05-21T20:50:47Z rudybot: gwatt: ; Value: 1234
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2019-05-21T20:58:38Z zalt_: is this defined even if you save this as a global variable then call it from a separate function
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2019-05-21T21:02:26Z gwatt: yes and no
2019-05-21T21:04:11Z gwatt: what I've demonstrated above is not defined if `return' and `time-travel' are defined as r6rs (and maybe r7rs) library exports
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2019-05-21T21:05:15Z gwatt: but you can use call/cc to jump in and out of computations across function / library boundaries
2019-05-21T21:05:50Z gwatt: chez, for example, uses call/cc to implement engines
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2019-05-21T21:17:52Z zalt_: gwatt, consider this: https://www.ideone.com/7WGKJO
2019-05-21T21:18:33Z zalt_: i think it is more powerful than setjmp/longjmp, such an operation is undefined when using longjmp
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2019-05-21T21:20:00Z zalt_: i mean, longjmp can only jump backwards in the call stack, this seems to be able to jump to a place that would've been "overwritten"
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2019-05-21T21:21:54Z zalt_: it's still confusing, i might be wrong
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2019-05-21T21:23:21Z zalt_ wonders, does it preserve nested calls?
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2019-05-21T21:40:40Z zalt_: it does, http://paste.debian.net/1082587/
2019-05-21T21:42:50Z zalt_: given that a lambda can have multiple expressions as its body, why does it matter whether you use (begin ) or not, iirc it has something to do with order of evaluation?, even if that is the case how can that matter?
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2019-05-21T21:54:42Z gwatt: lambda and the various lets all have an implicit begin
2019-05-21T21:57:26Z gwatt: doing something like (lambda () (begin (foo) (bar) (baz))) is equivalent to (lambda () (foo) (bar) (baz))
2019-05-21T21:58:21Z zalt_: so, it only makes sense to use begin when you want side effects, in a single expression?
2019-05-21T21:58:47Z zalt_: like (func (begin (display "hello") 2))
2019-05-21T21:59:18Z gwatt: Yes, that would call func with the single argument 2 but also print hello
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2019-05-21T22:01:55Z gwatt: begin is probably most useful inside if expressions as each arm of the if expression can only have a single expression
2019-05-21T22:02:51Z gwatt:  But that largely is helped by the macros cond, when, and unless
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2019-05-21T22:06:50Z zalt_: i see, thanks
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2019-05-22T04:19:48Z parker: oh fuck yeah one of these exists
2019-05-22T04:22:50Z aeth: one of?
2019-05-22T04:23:30Z parker: oh i just didn't know scheme had an IRC channel
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2019-05-22T04:24:05Z parker: probably could've looked it up but i just took a shot in the dark and typed /join #scheme
2019-05-22T04:26:09Z oni-on-ion: =)
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2019-05-22T04:34:05Z parker: what's the best version of scheme out there?
2019-05-22T04:34:22Z parker: curious as to everyones' opinions on this
2019-05-22T04:37:51Z ski: that's a loaded question
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2019-05-22T04:38:45Z parker: let me rephrase it then
2019-05-22T04:39:01Z parker: what dialect of scheme are you guys using?
2019-05-22T04:42:12Z ski: people like different systems. i've seen (in no particular order) Racket,Scheme48,MIT Scheme,Guile,Gauche,Chicken,Stalin,Chez,Chibi,Bigloo,Ikarus,Gambit,Larceny,Kawa,SCSH,T mentioned/discussed here. probably missing/forgetting some
2019-05-22T04:42:56Z aeth: probably? almost certainly
2019-05-22T04:43:23Z ski smiles
2019-05-22T04:44:22Z ski: (i've used Scheme48,MIT,Racket,Guile)
2019-05-22T04:45:39Z parker: funny, those are the one's i've used
2019-05-22T04:45:56Z parker: though i don't know how valuable my opinion is on it since i
2019-05-22T04:46:06Z parker: *i'm only a month into scheme
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2019-05-22T04:49:04Z ski: apparently <http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards> (under <http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq>) has a longer (probably incomplete ?) list of implementations
2019-05-22T04:49:28Z ski: parker : if you have any (Scheme-related) questions, feel free to ask them in here
2019-05-22T04:49:35Z aeth: a month is (- 30 48/24) more days than the authors of Scheme48 spent writing Scheme48
2019-05-22T04:49:53Z parker: thanks!
2019-05-22T04:50:47Z parker: i'm using owl lisp for now and it's pretty nice
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2019-05-22T04:52:37Z oni-on-ion: i like chez, chicken, gambit, guile
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2019-05-22T05:17:04Z pellertson: i'm parker, btw.  my chat client crashed & i wanted a new name
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2019-05-22T05:18:16Z pellertson: this is only to UNIX people, but if i were to write a scheme48 script and had the proper shebang (#!) at the top of the file, would the interpreter ignore that line?
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2019-05-22T05:28:24Z oni-on-ion: welcome back. and nope: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/14126397/how-do-i-properly-execute-a-program-with-scheme48
2019-05-22T05:28:37Z oni-on-ion: there is a workaround on the EDIT in the accepted answer
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2019-05-22T05:30:52Z pellertson: ah okay
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2019-05-22T09:06:04Z amz3: hello #scheme
2019-05-22T09:15:33Z z0d: hi
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2019-05-22T16:54:33Z zalt_: do these seem equivalent? http://paste.debian.net/1082700/
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2019-05-22T18:16:47Z gwatt: zalt_:
2019-05-22T18:17:04Z gwatt: oops, ignore
2019-05-22T18:17:29Z zalt_: np
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2019-05-22T18:53:34Z ski: zalt_ : yes
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2019-05-22T18:58:03Z zalt_: nice
2019-05-22T18:58:14Z zalt_: how bad is my indentation
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2019-05-22T18:58:36Z zalt_: i'm autoformatting the thing, so the only degree of freedom i have is when to place newlines :D
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2019-05-22T18:59:17Z zalt_: i remember reading a styleguide but i forgot it
2019-05-22T19:00:26Z Zipheir: zalt_: Why do you test for the same conditions twice?
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2019-05-22T19:01:31Z Zipheir: Ah, nvm.  I missed the peek.
2019-05-22T19:01:33Z zalt_: umm, mostly because (next-tok) mutates the lexer, but i bet that can be written better
2019-05-22T19:01:40Z zalt_: yes
2019-05-22T19:01:40Z ski: indentation is ok (the Scheme one, i.e.). i'd probably break line in the `and' and `or' (or one of them, at least), and probably also in the clauses of the `cond'
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2019-05-22T19:02:36Z ski: zalt_ : see the "Lisp Style Rules" at <https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt>
2019-05-22T19:03:11Z ski would consider using a parser monad (or idiom)
2019-05-22T19:03:26Z Zipheir: +1
2019-05-22T19:04:46Z ski: zalt_ : btw, of course one thing that differs is that you repeat the checking of the operator type in the Scheme, but not in the pseudo-C
2019-05-22T19:04:49Z TCZ: use racket and click tab on every line
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2019-05-22T19:06:16Z ski: `C-M-h TAB' in Emacs
2019-05-22T19:08:20Z Zipheir: Or just indent your damn code.  It's not rocket surgery.
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2019-05-22T19:12:21Z zalt_: Zipheir, i still don't know how to, i have a vim plugin Autoformat, idk what backend it uses it seems to do its job fairly well but it never modifies where newlines are placed
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2019-05-22T19:12:35Z zalt_: maybe that's better
2019-05-22T19:12:49Z Zipheir: Use what you like, of course.
2019-05-22T19:14:11Z Zipheir: I tend to think that only really important rules are (a) always indent nested lines more deeply and (b) don't spill the Pringles (ty wasamasa)
2019-05-22T19:14:26Z TCZ: dont trust wasamasa...
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2019-05-22T19:14:48Z zalt_: i mean, (define (foo bar) (* 2 bar)) will remain as it is no matter what, but if i do (define (foo bar)\n(* 2 bar)) then it will add the correct amount of spaces after '\n'
2019-05-22T19:15:02Z Zipheir: Hah, yeah, his indentation advice is clearly part of his world domination scheme.
2019-05-22T19:15:35Z TCZ: :o
2019-05-22T19:16:08Z zalt_: don't spill the Pringles? :D
2019-05-22T19:16:10Z Zipheir: zalt_: Sure.  It's easy enough to do by hand.
2019-05-22T19:16:22Z Zipheir: Keep groups of parens together.
2019-05-22T19:16:42Z Zipheir: There's nothing more annoying than "C-style" parens in lisp.
2019-05-22T19:16:48Z TCZ: drracket does perfect indentation use drracket
2019-05-22T19:16:56Z Zipheir: ')\n)\n)' and such
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2019-05-22T19:17:41Z zalt_: yeah, that's probably the worst style possible :P
2019-05-22T19:18:12Z zalt_ tries to figure out what is a monad
2019-05-22T19:18:46Z ski: "Absolutely do *not* place closing brackets on their own lines. ... Rationale:  The parentheses grow lonely if their closing brackets are all kept separated and segregated."
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2019-05-22T19:19:20Z zalt_: ski, i've read that style guide before, and you linked it too
2019-05-22T19:19:28Z ski nods
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2019-05-22T19:20:38Z zalt_: if i hadn't, all my procedures would look like something! :P
2019-05-22T19:21:24Z zalt_: "Avoid using the exclamation mark willy nilly for just *any* procedure
2019-05-22T19:21:25Z zalt_: whose operation involves any kind of mutation or side effect; instead,
2019-05-22T19:21:25Z zalt_: use the exclamation mark to identify procedures that exist *solely* for
2019-05-22T19:21:25Z zalt_: the purpose of destructive update (e.g., SET-CAR!), or to distinguish a
2019-05-22T19:21:25Z zalt_: destructive, or potentially destructive (in the case of linear-update
2019-05-22T19:21:26Z zalt_: operations such as APPEND!), variant of a procedure of which there also
2019-05-22T19:21:29Z zalt_: exists a purely functional variant (e.g., APPEND)."
2019-05-22T19:21:31Z zalt_: oops, long paste
2019-05-22T19:22:03Z Zipheir: That's a good point.
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2019-05-22T19:27:55Z ski: refined, one might say
2019-05-22T19:28:33Z Zipheir: The place where I've most often seen "standard scheme indent style" ignored is in long argument lists, especially with import and export.
2019-05-22T19:28:49Z Zipheir: No-one wants to break after each arg if there are 25 args.
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2019-05-22T19:41:26Z ski: if they're simple enough (like identifiers, e.g.), it shouldn't be that controversial, i hope
2019-05-22T19:47:41Z Zipheir: Indeed.  Uniformity cuts you some slack.
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2019-05-22T21:15:01Z wasamasa: Zipheir: well, sometimes it's justified, like in a long list: https://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
2019-05-22T21:15:28Z TCZ: hi
2019-05-22T21:15:29Z TCZ: xd
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2019-05-22T21:17:16Z ski: wasamasa : i believe Zipheir wanted to cram more list items / procedure operands into each row ?
2019-05-22T21:17:33Z wasamasa: I meant the pringles rule
2019-05-22T21:17:47Z wasamasa: like the above document says, the rules are not absolute
2019-05-22T21:17:57Z wasamasa: sometimes a lone paren is fine
2019-05-22T21:18:06Z ski: ah, ok
2019-05-22T21:18:11Z ski nods
2019-05-22T21:19:09Z TCZ: i never have lone parent
2019-05-22T21:19:56Z aeth: #\(
2019-05-22T21:20:14Z ski:  #\)
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2019-05-22T23:47:42Z gwatt: I use lone parens to close libraries
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2019-05-22T23:52:27Z Zipheir: Yeah, that's pretty common.
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2019-05-22T23:56:55Z ski: that's a case of "long list"
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2019-05-23T00:11:18Z Riastrad1: Should use an NFA lexer and a LALR parser!
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2019-05-23T00:19:32Z gwatt: bring back the super-paren
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2019-05-23T00:24:49Z Zipheir: The brave new world of scheme-fmt awaits.
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2019-05-23T01:47:01Z siraben: Emacs already does most of the indenting
2019-05-23T01:48:02Z siraben: Zipheir:  Would scheme-fmt be a script that calls Emacs and runs `indent-region` over the code?
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2019-05-23T02:28:55Z Zipheir: Ouch, that would be a lot of cycles to move some parens and whitespace around :)
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2019-05-23T03:29:32Z siraben: What would be interesting is if the indentation information was stored in a style file in the same folder, then a Scheme formatter would be able to read it and format the code as needed
2019-05-23T03:30:01Z siraben: This would especially be good when people create macros with indentation conventions
2019-05-23T03:30:03Z siraben: Emacs Lisp has a way to indicate indentation level of macros
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2019-05-23T06:50:13Z wasamasa: I joined the elusive club of chibi contributors
2019-05-23T06:57:57Z ober: there goes performance...
2019-05-23T06:58:03Z ober: :P
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2019-05-23T08:06:12Z ski: siraben : perhaps Zipheir was thinking of something like foof's "Combinator Formatting" library at <http://synthcode.com/scheme/fmt/> ?
2019-05-23T08:23:12Z Zipheir: I was kidding with reference to the infamous gofmt https://golang.org/cmd/gofmt/
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2019-05-23T08:24:09Z Zipheir: But yeah, I really, really like SRFI-159/166 formatting combinators.
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2019-05-24T04:50:59Z Zipheir: rudybot: It's too quiet.
2019-05-24T04:51:07Z rudybot: Zipheir: shout if you have issues.  It's hosted on github as well, feel free to report bugs there, too, if I'm quiet here
2019-05-24T04:53:37Z oni-on-ion: =P
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2019-05-24T05:03:55Z adu: hi Zipheir
2019-05-24T05:04:32Z ski: rudybot: I bet sorbet would think of something to say.
2019-05-24T05:04:43Z rudybot: ski: sorbet has been gone these past few years, along with her author.
2019-05-24T05:04:57Z adu: which schemes compile to c?
2019-05-24T05:05:22Z ski: rudybot: Yes, and what happened to incubot?
2019-05-24T05:05:27Z rudybot: ski: don't leave expressions without their values.
2019-05-24T05:05:54Z Zipheir: Hey adu
2019-05-24T05:06:25Z Zipheir: Gambit and CHICKEN compile to C.  There must be more.
2019-05-24T05:06:32Z ski: adu : hm. iirc Chicken ?
2019-05-24T05:07:00Z ski: "(CONS Should Not CONS Its Arguments, Part II: ) Cheney on the M.T.A." by Henry G. Baker in 1994-02-04 at <http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html>
2019-05-24T05:07:24Z Zipheir: Good article.
2019-05-24T05:08:38Z Zipheir: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-scheme-to-c is a really good introduction
2019-05-24T05:09:57Z ski: cf. <http://wiki.c2.com/?CheneyOnTheMta>,<https://www.more-magic.net/posts/internals-gc.html>,<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12773314>,<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5382902>
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2019-05-24T05:15:39Z ski: rudybot: Why not? You could always `receive' no values, or `call-with-values' a procedure accepting zero parameters.
2019-05-24T05:15:50Z rudybot: ski: They're scared their compiler will run rogue instead of accepting their program or something
2019-05-24T05:19:32Z Zipheir: rudybot: Beware the rogue compiler
2019-05-24T05:19:39Z rudybot: Zipheir: rogue apostrophe
2019-05-24T05:20:48Z ski: rudybot: Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!
2019-05-24T05:20:49Z rudybot: ski: jubjub
2019-05-24T05:21:59Z ski: rudybot: What do you think of the theory that all channel conversation eventually devolves into bot abuse?
2019-05-24T05:22:06Z rudybot: ski: It devolves into a meaningless linguistic word game with no point. I.e. philosophy.
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2019-05-24T20:02:53Z TCZ: how to do this with quote unquote - (list(make-spec "Name" string?)(make-spec "Age" integer?))
2019-05-24T20:03:24Z rain1: `(,(make-spec "Name" string?) ,(make-spec "Age" integer?))
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2019-05-24T20:04:02Z TCZ: hmm im sure i did it before but it didnt work, now it works...
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2019-05-24T20:11:38Z pjb: TCZ: as you can see, `, doesn't bring anything. (list (make-spec "Name" string?) (make-spec "Age" integer?)) is way more readable.
2019-05-24T20:12:32Z TCZ: but cool kids use `, right? o.O
2019-05-24T20:14:20Z TCZ: list - 4 characters, `, - 4 characters in list of length 3
2019-05-24T20:14:23Z Zipheir: It's useful when you're mixing lots of quoted stuff with evaluated expressions.
2019-05-24T20:14:59Z pjb: TCZ: there are no cool kids using lisp or scheme.
2019-05-24T20:15:06Z Zipheir: But it's not good style to just replace (list ...) with `(... ) everywhere, imho.
2019-05-24T20:15:18Z TCZ: only smug lisp weenies? :x
2019-05-24T20:15:24Z pjb: Those are old programming languages. you're writing lisp code for your old age. when being cool won't matter anymore.
2019-05-24T20:15:33Z pjb: Just being alive and not losing time with silly syntaxes.
2019-05-24T20:15:48Z pjb: Zipheir: no, just leave the code that works alone.
2019-05-24T20:16:01Z Zipheir: pjb: wat?
2019-05-24T20:16:16Z pjb: The point of `, is when you have a template.  You must have some specific structure with some fixed atoms to have a template.
2019-05-24T20:16:39Z pjb: For example (define (add x y) `(+ ,x ,y))
2019-05-24T20:16:56Z Zipheir: The cool kids are using languages with -lang suffixes and cuddly chibi mascots, I think.
2019-05-24T20:17:05Z pjb: Something like that.
2019-05-24T20:17:11Z Zipheir: Ah, ok.
2019-05-24T20:17:28Z pjb: And they have strange blue hair.  We just have at best gray beards, more often white hair and beards.
2019-05-24T20:17:37Z TCZ: clojure hipsters..
2019-05-24T20:17:45Z TCZ: and liberals
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2019-05-24T20:18:40Z pjb: Or, possibly, a trump: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/548914.The_Little_Schemer
2019-05-24T20:18:44Z TCZ: er-lang
2019-05-24T20:18:48Z pjb: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6905041-land-of-lisp
2019-05-24T20:19:32Z Zipheir: Thanks, now I have the Land Of Lisp song stuck in my head.
2019-05-24T20:19:55Z TCZ: hah
2019-05-24T20:19:57Z TCZ: and this cat
2019-05-24T20:20:03Z TCZ: meow meow
2019-05-24T20:20:25Z TCZ: btw smalltalk is better than lisp
2019-05-24T20:20:27Z TCZ: :x
2019-05-24T20:21:00Z TCZ: do you like c2wiki
2019-05-24T20:21:26Z Zipheir: Too obvious, 1 star for trolling effort.
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2019-05-24T20:21:57Z TCZ: ...
2019-05-24T20:22:33Z wasamasa: btw smalltalk is better than emacs
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2019-05-24T20:23:22Z TCZ: hmm
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2019-05-24T20:24:11Z TCZ: btw self is better than smalltalk
2019-05-24T20:24:46Z TCZ: i like this chat-room, so tolerant
2019-05-24T20:26:00Z Zipheir: rudybot: Everything has its limits.
2019-05-24T20:26:02Z rudybot: Zipheir: everything has its limits, of course.
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2019-05-24T21:21:37Z amz3 adds to his wishlist a tutorial on conditions
2019-05-24T21:22:00Z amz3: rudybot: what are conditions?
2019-05-24T21:22:02Z rudybot: amz3: +1 for match and match-let, they make it absolutely clear what kind of data you are working on and help to prevent deeply nested conditions.
2019-05-24T21:22:25Z amz3: rudybot: not that kind of conditions, I am thinking about exceptions kind of conditions
2019-05-24T21:22:35Z rudybot: amz3: eieio = clos, you can't restart conditions in most languages (including proposed scheme exceptions?), don't need threads.
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2019-05-24T21:42:58Z Riastradh: o/` I just walked in, to see what condition my condition was in... o/`
2019-05-24T21:53:50Z Riastradh: amz3: Just make sure it's not ill-conditioned.
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2019-05-24T22:05:02Z Zipheir: (raise mind-is-in-brown-paper-bag)
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2019-05-25T00:01:51Z TCZ: btw
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2019-05-25T02:05:44Z siraben: rudybot: what do you think of Donald Knuth?
2019-05-25T02:05:50Z rudybot: siraben: I don't think even Donald E. Knuth would have advocated that literate programming be the only kind of programming in use.
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2019-05-25T02:48:08Z ski: Zipheir : there's a song ?
2019-05-25T02:48:19Z ski: rudybot: What will they think of next?
2019-05-25T02:48:21Z rudybot: ski: what will they think of next
2019-05-25T02:48:57Z ski: rudybot: Stop repeating me. Amuse me.
2019-05-25T02:48:58Z rudybot: ski: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=amuse
2019-05-25T02:49:23Z ski muses on that
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2019-05-25T02:58:08Z Zipheir: ski: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc
2019-05-25T02:58:24Z Zipheir: I keep trying to think up an extra verse about the Curse of Lisp.
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2019-05-25T13:18:00Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/N5tbMBY7
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2019-05-25T13:27:59Z ski: instead of `foldr', you could use `map'
2019-05-25T13:28:30Z ski: you don't need to define that `helper'
2019-05-25T13:31:16Z TCZ: but i have to go through all labels
2019-05-25T13:31:28Z TCZ: and map needs 1 argument function
2019-05-25T13:31:53Z ski: style demands that you have whitespace inbetween an identifier, and an open bracket; inbetween a close bracket and an identifier; inbetween a close bracket and an open bracket
2019-05-25T13:33:28Z ski: i wonder why you use `local' instead of `let' or `let*' .. or just write your `define's in the body of a `define',`let',`let*' or `lambda'
2019-05-25T13:34:11Z ski: TCZ : sure, that's no problem. just pass a `lambda' that involves `labels', but which doesn't take it as a parameter
2019-05-25T13:36:46Z ski: (i assume `local' is a Racket syntax ?)
2019-05-25T13:37:26Z TCZ: yes
2019-05-25T13:43:50Z TCZ: (define (reorder-row row) (map (lambda(label)(cell-for label schema row)) labels))
2019-05-25T13:49:27Z nisstyre: today feels like a good day to write scheme
2019-05-25T13:49:32Z nisstyre: but I don't know what to work on
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2019-05-25T13:51:01Z wasamasa: implement scheme
2019-05-25T13:51:18Z TCZ: i did this
2019-05-25T13:51:24Z TCZ: in smalltalk wasamasa
2019-05-25T13:51:48Z wasamasa: now do a smalltalk in scheme
2019-05-25T13:51:50Z nisstyre: wasamasa: how much of scheme
2019-05-25T13:51:55Z TCZ: http://books.pharo.org/booklet-AMiniSchemeInPharo/pdf/2018-08-28-Physche.pdf
2019-05-25T13:51:57Z wasamasa: then you have scheme interpreting smalltalk interpreting scheme
2019-05-25T13:51:58Z nisstyre: wasamasa: I could try writing a type inference engine again
2019-05-25T13:52:24Z nisstyre: TCZ: why does pharo.org have stuff on scheme?
2019-05-25T13:52:41Z nisstyre: I could try implementing scheme in ponylang
2019-05-25T13:52:42Z TCZ: to make fun of scheme
2019-05-25T13:52:57Z TCZ: to show how much st is better than ss
2019-05-25T13:53:00Z nisstyre: I would still have to do closure conversion which is a pain
2019-05-25T13:53:01Z TCZ: :x
2019-05-25T13:53:08Z nisstyre: I hate that part
2019-05-25T13:53:14Z TCZ: chapter 6 is about closures
2019-05-25T13:53:29Z TCZ: i didnt read it yet
2019-05-25T13:53:30Z nisstyre: the mutually recursive stuff is fine
2019-05-25T13:54:23Z nisstyre: TCZ: smalltalk isn't real OOP anyway
2019-05-25T13:54:33Z nisstyre: objects are supposed to be async
2019-05-25T13:54:49Z nisstyre: even alan kay agrees
2019-05-25T13:55:23Z TCZ: Self is real OOP?
2019-05-25T13:55:27Z nisstyre: never used self
2019-05-25T13:55:38Z nisstyre: but E is closer to real OOP than Smalltalk
2019-05-25T13:55:58Z TCZ: its like Smalltalk but delegation instead of classic inheritance
2019-05-25T13:55:59Z nisstyre: even Erlang with its genservers is
2019-05-25T13:56:07Z nisstyre: but it doesn't have subtyping afaik
2019-05-25T13:56:25Z nisstyre: TCZ: does it have isolation?
2019-05-25T13:56:33Z nisstyre: i.e. all objects are private by default
2019-05-25T13:57:39Z TCZ: i installed it 4 days ago
2019-05-25T13:57:56Z nisstyre: TCZ: you should check out ponylang.io
2019-05-25T13:58:13Z TCZ: io has prototypal inheritance too
2019-05-25T13:58:29Z TCZ: whats that pony
2019-05-25T13:58:42Z nisstyre: the page explains it
2019-05-25T13:58:46Z nisstyre: https://ponylang.io
2019-05-25T13:59:08Z nisstyre: https://www.ponylang.io/discover/#what-makes-pony-different
2019-05-25T13:59:21Z nisstyre: it's pure OO as well
2019-05-25T13:59:31Z TCZ: but its not dynamic hmmm
2019-05-25T13:59:36Z nisstyre: not at all
2019-05-25T13:59:38Z TCZ: so its not oop....
2019-05-25T13:59:42Z TCZ: xd
2019-05-25T13:59:43Z nisstyre: it's very much a statically typed language
2019-05-25T13:59:51Z nisstyre: that has no bearing on object orientedness
2019-05-25T14:00:17Z TCZ: in real oop you dont care about type only  methods...
2019-05-25T14:00:20Z TCZ: :x
2019-05-25T14:00:28Z nisstyre: TCZ: I don't think that's quite true
2019-05-25T14:00:51Z nisstyre: what you care about is "I can send a message to this object and it may or may not respond"
2019-05-25T14:01:01Z TCZ: yes
2019-05-25T14:01:23Z nisstyre: that's similar to the actor model
2019-05-25T14:02:07Z TCZ: i dont really know what actors are, are they like objects but even more isolated?
2019-05-25T14:02:16Z nisstyre: kind of
2019-05-25T14:02:26Z nisstyre: they run independently and can be asynchronous
2019-05-25T14:02:33Z nisstyre: and they have a mailbox where they can receive messages
2019-05-25T14:02:37Z nisstyre: and they can send messages to other actor
2019-05-25T14:02:39Z nisstyre: *actors
2019-05-25T14:02:58Z nisstyre: that's all they can do really
2019-05-25T14:03:04Z nisstyre: they have no shared state of any kind
2019-05-25T14:04:14Z nisstyre: TCZ: Scheme was influenced by the actor model as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Actor_model#Scheme
2019-05-25T14:11:25Z TCZ: "It was(Actor model) also influenced by the programming languages Lisp, Simula, and early versions of Smalltalk"
2019-05-25T14:11:55Z nisstyre: yeah, actor model was one of the influences of Scheme
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2019-05-25T14:46:54Z TCZ: "I prefer .scm too.  My father was a NYTimes reporter in Germany 1938-41.  He had plenty of run-ins with the SS and Gestapo."
2019-05-25T14:47:13Z nisstyre: wat
2019-05-25T14:49:25Z TCZ: https://lists.racket-lang.org/users/archive/2008-February/023029.html
2019-05-25T14:51:34Z wasamasa: just wait until you learn about DJ SS
2019-05-25T14:52:10Z wasamasa: I shit you not: https://www.discogs.com/artist/1409-DJ-SS
2019-05-25T14:52:43Z nisstyre: haha
2019-05-25T14:56:05Z TCZ: Scratchenstein
2019-05-25T14:56:07Z TCZ: o.O
2019-05-25T14:57:17Z wasamasa: he's just black though, not jewish
2019-05-25T15:01:11Z TCZ: yes not every stein is jewish, Frankenstein for instance
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2019-05-25T15:29:59Z TCZ: JavaScript is better than Schemu
2019-05-25T15:30:59Z TCZ: Scheme
2019-05-25T15:31:03Z TCZ: -_-
2019-05-25T15:31:55Z pjb: Frankestein was fiction.
2019-05-25T15:35:51Z TCZ: what about Wolfenstein
2019-05-25T15:36:18Z TCZ: nvm
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2019-05-25T15:41:06Z rain1: tCZ javascript is worse than scheme
2019-05-25T15:41:20Z rain1: you got it backwards
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2019-05-25T15:45:16Z edgar-rft: TCZ: Karl Frankenstein was very well a jew, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Frankenstein
2019-05-25T15:47:10Z TCZ: but Victor and his monster werent...
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2019-05-25T15:57:30Z edgar-rft: Frankenstein has created the monster with JavaScript
2019-05-25T15:58:45Z TCZ: Scheme is responsible for WW2
2019-05-25T15:59:58Z TCZ: everything we do in scheme can be done in javascript better
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2019-05-25T16:00:43Z TCZ: and you have methods functions, better organized code, better oop support, better fp support
2019-05-25T16:00:57Z TCZ: firefox cant run scheme
2019-05-25T16:04:03Z TCZ: https://dis.tinychan.org/read/prog/1458854288
2019-05-25T16:04:05Z TCZ: xd
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2019-05-25T16:07:15Z oni-on-ion: interesting.. ive thought about this =)
2019-05-25T16:09:11Z TCZ: conspiracy hmmmm
2019-05-25T16:09:35Z TCZ: they want us to believe that earth is sphere...
2019-05-25T16:10:28Z TCZ: Hell-iocentrism
2019-05-25T16:12:00Z oni-on-ion: heh=)
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2019-05-25T16:19:02Z TCZ: https://github.com/iammerrick/the-frankenstein-framework
2019-05-25T16:19:12Z oni-on-ion: the #34 quote from that link is good
2019-05-25T16:19:12Z oni-on-ion: and that image "symbolic-tree" is eerily accurate
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2019-05-25T16:28:40Z TCZ: games,pornography,programming,cats
2019-05-25T16:28:51Z TCZ: fancy programming languages
2019-05-25T16:33:43Z TCZ: its so easy to compare 2 functions, just convert them to string and compare those strings
2019-05-25T16:34:54Z pjb: and so wrong.
2019-05-25T16:35:33Z pjb: (define (f x y) (* x y)) (define (g x y) (exp (+ (log x) (log y))))
2019-05-25T16:35:38Z pjb: they're the same function.
2019-05-25T16:35:53Z oni-on-ion: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1804.00485v1.pdf
2019-05-25T16:38:50Z TCZ: is it about psychology? oni-on-ion
2019-05-25T16:40:03Z oni-on-ion: somewhat. "aesthetics of comformance" , zen stuff
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2019-05-25T18:54:01Z dwdv: What's the license of the r7rs-small language specification?
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2019-05-25T19:41:11Z TCZ: there is no life without your life in misery
2019-05-25T19:45:17Z edgar-rft: if your life is full of Scheme and JavaScript, then yes
2019-05-25T19:47:21Z TCZ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MKAf6YX_7M
2019-05-25T19:47:41Z TCZ: edgar-rft you hate scheme too? :3
2019-05-25T19:50:32Z TCZ: javascript makes flat world go round
2019-05-25T19:53:11Z Zipheir: dwdv: "This report ... may be copied in whole or in part without fee."  I suppose that makes it CC-BY-SA-ND, or RMS-style-"don't-change-my-words"-PL.
2019-05-25T19:54:05Z Zipheir: (Just my interpretation, obviously you should just read what the document says.)
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2019-05-25T20:08:23Z jcowan: "Knowledge tells you that Frankenstein was not the monster.  Wisdom tells you that Frankenstein *was* the monster."
2019-05-25T20:10:29Z edgar-rft: Zipheir: To me that reads more like "you're allowed to copy the document name and title (part of the document), fill up the rest with illegal crap and sell it under the original name with no need to pay a fee to the original authors"
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2019-05-25T20:13:05Z jcowan: Zipheir: The Scheme community has always treated as an MIT/BSD permissive license.  Certainly in CC terms it is not ND (the next sentence says so) or NC (predecessors have been used by Scheme vendors) or SA.  Whether it is formally BY or that's just informally expected is a question.
2019-05-25T20:15:42Z jcowan: Note that parts of RnRS actually come from the (proprietary) TI Scheme manual by permission.
2019-05-25T20:16:46Z jcowan: "We thank Texas Instruments, Inc. for permission to use text from the TI Scheme Language Reference Manual [37]."
2019-05-25T20:18:07Z dwdv: Hm, plan was to integrating some section text, modified and enriched with example code, into gerbil scheme's reference docs. Thanks for clearing that up.
2019-05-25T20:18:08Z TCZ: people wanted to burn Frankenstein because they thought he was jewish?
2019-05-25T20:18:26Z dwdv: Zipheir: thanks for that, was only grepping for license and similar words.
2019-05-25T20:20:13Z jcowan: What's pushed under the rug is that the copyright ownership of the RnRSes is completely unclear.
2019-05-25T20:21:59Z dwdv: Yeah, what a shame. As a non-native speaker, a solid fountation would've been quite helpful.
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2019-05-25T20:25:06Z Zipheir: jcowan: Interesting, thanks.
2019-05-25T20:25:41Z Zipheir: Ah yes, "modifying it as necessary."
2019-05-25T20:26:22Z Zipheir: dwdv: "a solid fountation would've been quite helpful" ?
2019-05-25T20:26:49Z jcowan: The textual lineage begins in R2RS (1985) which already has the passage "We intend this report ..." exactly as it is today.  That version was written by the original Scheme Committee of 16, though we don't know how many of them actually contributed text.  They didn't belong to any one organization, so there was really no one to hold the copyright.
2019-05-25T20:27:47Z jcowan: We know that Sussman, Hanson, Brooks, and Clinger wrote at least parts of the text.
2019-05-25T20:28:37Z jcowan: Zipheir: I think he is referring to a solid foundation for reuse, with a definite copyright owner and copyright license.  But wanting that is simply an anachronism.
2019-05-25T20:28:55Z Zipheir: Hah, indeed.
2019-05-25T20:33:14Z Zipheir: Scheme report copyright is probably the least of anyone's worries.
2019-05-25T20:35:22Z Zipheir: Being sued because someone patented the curried add-1 function in 1979 seems much more probable.
2019-05-25T20:36:58Z Zipheir: Er, add-n.
2019-05-25T20:37:16Z jcowan: And that isn't very probable either.
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2019-05-25T20:37:30Z amz3: hello #scheme :)
2019-05-25T20:37:59Z Zipheir: amz3: o/
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2019-05-25T20:39:37Z Zipheir: Well, in a world in which people are sued by a group claiming to have patented the web 'shopping cart'... EWD's Mathematics, Inc. doesn't seem too ludicrous.
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2019-05-25T21:02:07Z amz3: fwiw, I copied lot of r7rs in the documentation I am making and also SRFI doc but that is more clear.
2019-05-25T21:02:46Z amz3: I just intend to mention it, but I don't know which license the documentation will be using in the end
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2019-05-25T21:43:58Z Zipheir: Is there an advantage to using a box rather than a object that you mutate directly?
2019-05-25T21:44:37Z Zipheir: Aside from the obvious isolation of assignment ("mutate only in ze dezignaded zone!")
2019-05-25T21:56:09Z Zipheir: And call
2019-05-25T21:56:11Z Zipheir: oops
2019-05-25T21:56:22Z Zipheir: *And call by reference, of course.
2019-05-25T21:56:41Z Zipheir: nvm, those reasons are significant enough.
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2019-05-25T21:57:51Z TCZ: me > you
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2019-05-25T22:54:27Z TCZ: oh
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2019-05-25T23:11:47Z TCZ: uh
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2019-05-25T23:27:55Z TCZ: i dont have itunes app
2019-05-25T23:28:07Z TCZ: why its in htdp
2019-05-25T23:28:17Z TCZ: i didnt do exercises withthat
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2019-05-25T23:42:00Z TCZ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytUygPqjXEc
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2019-05-26T10:36:32Z TempeVolcano: hello
2019-05-26T10:36:45Z TempeVolcano: a little stuck on this exercise in htdp
2019-05-26T10:37:58Z TempeVolcano: (check-within (make-posn #i1.0 #i1.1)
2019-05-26T10:37:59Z TempeVolcano:               (make-posn #i0.9 #i1.2)  0.01)
2019-05-26T10:38:43Z TempeVolcano: never mind, I misread .01 as .1
2019-05-26T10:41:58Z amz3: :)
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2019-05-26T14:59:31Z TCZ: a
2019-05-26T15:02:06Z edgar-rft: b
2019-05-26T15:05:01Z TCZ: rzucają kamieniami w koła samochodów
2019-05-26T15:05:21Z TCZ: i patrzą na spódnice dziewczyn które nie chcą ich znać
2019-05-26T15:05:31Z TCZ: edgar-rft c
2019-05-26T15:16:07Z TCZ: https://vimeo.com/111334073
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2019-05-26T21:02:51Z amz3: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/56317339/how-to-implement-asynchronous-code-that-looks-synchronous-mimicking-async-awai
2019-05-26T21:02:51Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/25BxWJVuJg
2019-05-26T21:03:28Z amz3: rudybot: you love me
2019-05-26T21:03:31Z rudybot: amz3: If my love for make text editor makes me disturbed, then just call me the name of the serial killer of your choice, 'cause I'm hidin' bodies under the house daily, if you know what I mean.
2019-05-26T21:06:22Z oni-on-ion: eheh... >_>
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2019-05-26T21:08:27Z Zipheir: rudybot: What will you say next?
2019-05-26T21:08:28Z rudybot: Zipheir: sure. What I'm thinking of though, is more like (display (first-value)), where first-value say, retrieves something from the network, then having first-value write a continuation into a variable, that 'do-next-value' has access to, so that after that you can run (do-next-value) and it will call display again
2019-05-26T21:10:43Z amz3: oO
2019-05-26T21:11:58Z oni-on-ion: interestingly close to topic
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2019-05-27T14:06:14Z Riastradh: Has the notation #\[MUMBLE FROTZ] for named Unicode code points been standardized yet?
2019-05-27T14:06:21Z Riastradh: or something like that
2019-05-27T14:06:27Z Riastradh: #\u[MUMBLE FROTZ]
2019-05-27T14:06:32Z Riastradh: I dunno.
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2019-05-27T15:36:38Z pjb: Riastradh: in CL, #\<character-name> is rather standard.  For example #\space #\newline  The names are not standardized however. Only a few names for ASCII control codes are semi-standardized (if they exist they should be used, eg. #\tab).  Of course, implementations extend it for unicode codepoint names. (string #\EURO_SIGN) -> "€" but this depends on the unicode dictionary used by the implementation, this is not consistent. 
2019-05-27T15:36:38Z pjb: names can be used, when they're available to name the same character).
2019-05-27T15:37:09Z pjb: Riastradh: the first question to answer, is what version of unicode you want to support.  They make new versions all the time, we're already at 8 or 9…
2019-05-27T15:39:05Z Riastradh: As far as I know, Unicode never change what code point a name means, so it's just a matter of whether the system knows about that code point yet.
2019-05-27T15:44:01Z rain1: it would be nice to have something work uniformly in strings and char literals
2019-05-27T15:45:06Z pjb: There are aliases.
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2019-05-27T15:48:06Z Riastradh: Yes, there are aliases, so the printer would have to decide which one to use, but there are lots of issues with expressing preferences about how a printer works, not unique to Unicode.
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2019-05-27T19:44:51Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-05-27T19:48:13Z Zipheir: rudybot: Do you know any other tunes?
2019-05-27T19:48:20Z rudybot: Zipheir: My favourite episode of Loney Tunes was the one where Daffy comes up to these big bouncer-type guys, and one of them said 'Ain't no thang, than a chicken wing on a string.' I can't remember any other context, but I still find that hilarious
2019-05-27T19:48:32Z Zipheir: hah
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2019-05-27T21:22:57Z amz3: so apprantly indexed approximate string matching is dark art
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2019-05-27T21:38:11Z gwatt: amz3: like levenstein distance?
2019-05-27T21:41:48Z amz3: gwatt: yes like levenstein distance. I would like to avoid to compare the input string to all the strings of my vocabulary. Basically, computing "Top K neareest strings"
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2019-05-27T21:59:57Z jcowan: What are the applications of lists of lists of atomic types, if any?
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2019-05-27T22:30:18Z gwatt: jcowan: alists, representing trees
2019-05-27T22:30:41Z pjb: jcowan: for example, you can have a list of vectors represented as list of coordinates, any number of vectors, and you could compute their sum: (apply map + '((1 2 3) (100 200 300) (10 20 30))) ->  (111 222 333)
2019-05-27T22:31:38Z jcowan: Coordinates are a tuple type, it's just that we tend to use lists rather than structs/instances for such things.
2019-05-27T22:31:46Z pjb: jcowan: you realize that you're asking what is the application of numbers.  Or what is the application of strings.
2019-05-27T22:31:59Z jcowan: Hardly
2019-05-27T22:32:21Z jcowan: But lists-as-sets are a place where lists of sets, sets of lists, and sets of sets do make sense.
2019-05-27T22:32:24Z pjb: jcowan: nope, because conses (or lists) are a more fundamental and generic data structure: it can be used to implement all and any other data structure.
2019-05-27T22:32:34Z jcowan: So can numbers.
2019-05-27T22:32:48Z jcowan: in Goedel encoding, e.g.
2019-05-27T22:32:51Z pjb: jcowan: therefore in first lisp implementations, there were no other data structure, no array, no string, no structure.
2019-05-27T22:33:02Z pjb: jcowan: read above.
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2019-05-28T04:25:01Z Zipheir: The SRFI-170 draft looks really good.  Kudos to jcowan for doing all that work.
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2019-05-28T06:01:06Z mrm: jcowan: For r8rs, can we finally remove all the bloat from the language and replace cons cells with Godel numbering?
2019-05-28T06:05:58Z mrm: Oh, speaking of which: http://matt.might.net/papers/liang2014godel.pdf
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2019-05-28T06:56:36Z fauxm: For r9rs, I think cons cells are too much bloat and don't give enough choice to the implementation, and should be replaced by just writing assembly for the target platform
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2019-05-28T07:29:00Z aeth: Can r10rs just be implemented as a library on top of unlambda?
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2019-05-28T12:11:27Z jcowan: Zipheir: Thanks.
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2019-05-28T13:47:37Z amz3: scheme wiki is down, not my fault...
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2019-05-28T15:07:33Z dTal: r11rs is literally just Forth
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2019-05-28T15:26:33Z gwatt: that seems unlikely since r8rs is common lisp...
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2019-05-28T15:30:45Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2019-05-28T15:35:52Z jcowan: I hope that my successor will be able to apply some gentle pressure to that jokester.
2019-05-28T15:38:03Z amz3: I ported SRFI 167 (ordered key-value store) and SRFI-168 (generic n-tuple store) to chez scheme
2019-05-28T15:38:04Z amz3: https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/chez-scheme-arew/commit/a0b263450721f74ce493b460c2eb95c38ff4a525
2019-05-28T15:38:12Z amz3: it is still time to make feedback!
2019-05-28T15:38:26Z Riastradh: Speaking of successors, I've been absentee dictator of this channel for a while now.  Maybe we should hold an election for a successor?
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2019-05-28T15:43:22Z fauxm: Hi yes, it is me, your successor
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2019-05-28T16:20:32Z erkin: I'm convinced.
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2019-05-28T17:13:42Z gwatt: Riastradh: you're here pretty regularly. Do you no longer want to be channel dictator?
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2019-05-28T17:53:00Z jcowan: There are precedents for electing dictators, but a palace coup is perhaps more usual.
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2019-05-28T17:56:37Z Zipheir: The last man nearly ruined this place / He didn't know what to do with it / If you think this country's bad off now / Just wait 'til I get through with it!
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2019-05-28T18:03:32Z jcowan: Zipheir: probably my favorite movie of all time
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2019-05-28T18:49:11Z Riastradh: gwatt: I'm more of a Statler & Waldorf these days than a proper dictator.
2019-05-28T18:50:54Z Riastradh: If you're cool with government by heckling, though, I guess there's no need for regime change.
2019-05-28T18:51:12Z Riastradh: o/` No matter what it is or who commenced it, I'm against it! o/`
2019-05-28T19:02:10Z gwatt: There are certainly worse forms of governance
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2019-05-28T20:19:43Z amz3: my project is the top project on github for the tag functional-database, check this out https://github.com/topics/functional-database
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2019-05-28T20:39:12Z jcowan: Anyway, if we do need a new dictator, sortition is clearly the correct option.
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2019-05-28T20:57:09Z daviid: the only truely functional database in this world is git itself right?:) sortition is only a slave :)
2019-05-28T21:00:53Z amz3: daviid: that is not how it work. git is not a database.
2019-05-28T21:01:29Z Zipheir: git isn't even a VCS ;)
2019-05-28T21:02:36Z daviid: I was just puling legs, but no pun, just fun ...
2019-05-28T21:03:07Z amz3: also some people tried to implement what I am trying to implement, even if it is very bad idea, using git, and it doesn't work.
2019-05-28T21:04:18Z aeth: functional database? how about blockchains?!
2019-05-28T21:05:25Z Zipheir: booooooo
2019-05-28T21:08:07Z aeth: Zipheir: Why the hate? I've already secured financing for a blockchain in the 4 minutes since I said the word! If I say it a few more times I might be able to IPO!
2019-05-28T21:08:39Z aeth: And it's gone. All the money is gone. It was a fun 30 seconds.
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2019-05-28T21:10:37Z amz3: x)
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2019-05-28T21:12:55Z Zipheir: Heh.
2019-05-28T21:13:07Z Zipheir: rudybot: You're blockchain-powered, right?
2019-05-28T21:13:12Z rudybot: Zipheir: ooc, have you tried the blockchain.info-branded webwallet? I like running a full peer, too, but for lower-powered devices it's not always suitable
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2019-05-29T10:48:02Z amz3: hello #scheme :)
2019-05-29T10:51:03Z rain1: hey amz3
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2019-05-29T17:43:27Z rain1: how can i implement call/ec ?\
2019-05-29T17:43:35Z rain1: i have a simple recursive scheme interpreter
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2019-05-29T17:52:10Z rain1: I guess I have to change the structure of the evaluator
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2019-05-29T17:55:58Z gwatt: what is call/ec?
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2019-05-29T18:11:47Z pjb: rain1: call/cc can be implemented by putting the stack in the heap, (one frame at a time, as a chain of frames), so you can refer to some frames from multiple continuations.
2019-05-29T18:12:29Z pjb: rain1: the difficulty is that processors are designed with stacks that have usually some restrictions on where they can be put (notably to manage interruptions).  So you need to be careful.
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2019-05-29T21:00:38Z jcowan: Depending on what language you are writing in, call/ec can be implemented with native exceptions, since they can only go upstack, never down.
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2019-05-30T03:27:34Z siraben: rain1: if you want to see the semantics of call/cc the denotational semantics of R5RS is good
2019-05-30T03:27:46Z siraben: towards the end of the 50 pages
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2019-05-30T03:33:24Z Riastradh: rain1: Make the recursion stack an explicit data structure in your evaluator, instead of making any use of the host language's recursion stack.
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2019-05-30T06:35:08Z oni-on-ion: https://wiki.call-cc.org/programming-for-performance
2019-05-30T06:35:10Z oni-on-ion: ouch.
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2019-05-30T06:40:02Z Zipheir: oni-on-ion: ouch?
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2019-05-30T07:01:45Z Zipheir: rudybot: 'ouch' at the terrifying power of Scheme, amirite?
2019-05-30T07:01:46Z rudybot: Zipheir: moderately terrifying, eh?
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2019-05-30T07:59:53Z wasamasa: > Experience with the system and the language is very important so: EXPERIMENT!
2019-05-30T08:00:37Z wasamasa: you can almost hear shia la beouf
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2019-05-30T09:28:18Z edgar-rft: experiment ≠ experience
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2019-05-30T09:34:14Z rain1: its interesting i have used a stack for local variables
2019-05-30T09:34:19Z rain1: but not included the control in the stack
2019-05-30T09:34:46Z rain1: I'm not sure how to do that, i would need to transform the source into something linear maybe
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2019-05-30T11:54:48Z ofc: Does anyone know if there known bugs in Irregex regarding lookbehind assertions? I don't think they work properly for me.
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2019-05-30T12:27:55Z wasamasa: do you have a minimal example?
2019-05-30T12:29:04Z ofc: Will post one
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2019-05-30T12:32:33Z ofc: Python: re.compile("(?<=z) ").split("aaaz bbbz cccz ddd eeez fff") => ['aaaz', 'bbbz', 'cccz', 'ddd eeez', 'fff']
2019-05-30T12:32:39Z ofc: Chez/Irregex: (irregex-split "(?<=z) " "aaaz bbbz cccz ddd eeez fff") => ("aaaz" "bbbz cccz ddd eeez fff") [expected  ("aaaz" "bbbz" "cccz" "ddd eeez" "fff")]
2019-05-30T12:33:41Z wasamasa: hm, first thing I'd try is checking whether the string compiles to the expected construct
2019-05-30T12:36:58Z ofc: I'm not sure if I can read Irregex's internal strutures, sadly.
2019-05-30T12:37:07Z wasamasa: then translate it to SRE :>
2019-05-30T12:37:08Z ofc: So I'm not sure what is the expeced construct.
2019-05-30T12:37:26Z ofc: But I'll try if SRE does the same thing.
2019-05-30T12:38:11Z wasamasa: ok, no, same result
2019-05-30T12:38:23Z wasamasa: (irregex-split '(: (look-behind "z") " ") "aaaz bbbz cccz ddd eeez fff")
2019-05-30T12:43:39Z ofc: I guess I should probably report it, then.
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2019-05-30T13:07:18Z wasamasa: sre->string is a thing here
2019-05-30T13:08:31Z wasamasa: it doesn't work though :<
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2019-05-30T19:42:45Z amz3: rudybot: what about a turbobot?
2019-05-30T19:42:45Z rudybot: amz3: Lay down the law, turbobot!
2019-05-30T19:43:32Z Zipheir: rudybot could certainly use some improvements.
2019-05-30T19:45:47Z Zipheir: amz3: It would be cool if rudybot could provide an interface to your search engine
2019-05-30T19:46:42Z amz3: Zipheir: I need to get back to it, I did not code for 3-4 days
2019-05-30T19:48:26Z Zipheir: That would be one way for rudybot to pull his weight around here, rather than just wisecrack.
2019-05-30T19:48:35Z Zipheir: rudybot: A jester unemployed is nobody's fool.
2019-05-30T19:48:38Z rudybot: Zipheir: can someone help me with multihops in tramp? I set it up just like in info (I think), but it's not working for me. The proxy is jester.mydomain.com
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2019-05-30T19:53:33Z amz3: I am not sure I will continue the search engine, I will re-use the code I have written.
2019-05-30T19:53:58Z amz3: I am on too many projects right now
2019-05-30T19:54:12Z amz3: I need to complete srfi 167 and 168 sample code
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2019-05-30T19:54:41Z amz3: and the search engine is a lot of work to make it correct.
2019-05-30T19:55:06Z amz3: I hacked together a crawler using bash and wget but that is not good enough
2019-05-30T19:55:33Z amz3: if I want to serve well the community it must be well behaving and with an up-to-date index.
2019-05-30T19:56:21Z amz3: my goal is to create living with scheme programming language, but I think th search engine thing, is a bit limited in scope.
2019-05-30T19:56:36Z Zipheir: It's a good idea
2019-05-30T19:56:50Z amz3: I have this idea about a data management system in the spirit of CKAN (https://github.com/ckan/ckan) but that is too much frontend for my taste
2019-05-30T19:57:12Z amz3: it something like github for structured data.
2019-05-30T19:57:38Z amz3: Zipheir: yes, I beleive it will be useful, but I don't think it will help me get living.
2019-05-30T19:58:20Z amz3: I am not saying I will create yet-another-ad-agency. I am looking at building a software I can use to do consulting or something like that.
2019-05-30T19:58:48Z amz3: so last few days, I have been thinking about another route.
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2019-05-30T20:02:52Z Zipheir: That's definitely a challenge.
2019-05-30T20:03:56Z Zipheir: If only the world wanted to do more with computation than push HTML around...
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2019-05-30T20:44:05Z gwatt: Zipheir: the world *does* want more than that, it's just that HTML is the GUI for what's really going on
2019-05-30T20:44:17Z gwatt: which is pushing JSON around
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2019-05-30T21:08:18Z Zipheir: Hah
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2019-05-30T22:23:07Z amz3: The idea have in mind is about computation but with a lightweight frontend.
2019-05-30T22:23:23Z wasamasa: smoke signals are lightweight
2019-05-30T22:24:54Z Zipheir: Command-line language interpreters are lightweight
2019-05-30T22:26:16Z Zipheir: Well, the interface at least.  The interpreter could be a monster.
2019-05-30T22:30:07Z Zipheir: But wrt frontends, it's hard to get lighter-weight than strings
2019-05-30T22:32:28Z aeth: amz3: the problem with search engines is crawling all of the data and storing it.
2019-05-30T22:33:00Z aeth: Zipheir: strings are massively complicated, just do a bunch of bytes.
2019-05-30T22:34:04Z Zipheir: aeth: Most people suck at writing bytecode.
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2019-05-30T22:44:37Z Zipheir: It does seem that traditional search engines promote data siloing.  DHT-driven engines were an interesting alternative.
2019-05-30T22:45:34Z Zipheir: rudybot: Surely the blockchain can fix this!
2019-05-30T22:45:37Z rudybot: Zipheir: we can see how much BTC the FSF has: http://blockchain.info/address/1PC9aZC4hNX2rmmrt7uHTfYAS3hRbph4UN
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2019-05-30T22:52:33Z daviid: I wonder why they don't use gnu taler instead
2019-05-30T22:52:57Z daviid: ot: should we 'all' create a bc wallet? somewhere, where?  how far is gnu taler from usable ... I wonder
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2019-05-31T11:00:47Z TCZ: i reinstaled irc
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2019-05-31T11:58:18Z dTal: I wonder how fast of a raytracer you could make in scheme
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2019-05-31T12:00:31Z rain1: you could make one thats quite fast if the compiler was good, but most will be slow compared to C
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2019-05-31T12:32:28Z 
2019-05-31T12:32:28Z names: ccl-logbot amoe `micro grettke greaser|q Seb[m] davexunit jp pchrist ecraven gwatt scroll2_ kbtr friscosam terrorjack__ mats Duns_Scrotus rann groovy notzmv ofc Kkiro malaclyps GoldRin zooey brendyyn dmiles alyptik notnotdan deuill dwdv DKordic mpot webshinra ggole gravicappa Menche klovett X-Scale joast moldybits casaca keep_learning_M Zenton ravndal lavaflow ByronJohnson DGASAU pierpal szgyg khisanth_ wigust amz3 clog dTal mdhughes badkins_ xelxebar
2019-05-31T12:32:29Z names: abdulocracy teardown sudden averell hugo f8l oni-on-ion Inline jim zmt01 Snn[m] dalz because[m] spectrumgomas[m] sciamano willghatch[m] Gnuxie[m] mbakke siraben Jackiew2 Ericson2314 DeeEff johnjay edgar-rft lloda m1dnight_ pjb fauxm duncanm gf3 englishm kwmiebach edw ec vyzo nckx SirDayBat defanor dieggsy turbofail yosafbridge ober rickbutton niklasl eMBee stephe r1b rjungemann cromyr_ cross ArneBab hive-mind pflanze pie__ emacsomancer rich_ ohama em
2019-05-31T12:32:29Z names: tessier Kryo z0d mrm ventonegro comstar eagleflo nisstyre LeoNerd Kooda profan fiddlerwoaroof evhan Guest40074 h11 ski cibs cky keja Wojciech_K weinholt davl mario-goulart greghendershott ineiros ghostyy cemerick andreh scal wasamasa kilimanjaro Blkt dpk abbe fowlduck stux|work rudybot balkamos physpi gko drot uplime aeth ft gnomon ozzloy rotty1 stux16777216Away copec vxe dante Fr0stBit SylvanCyborg DeeEff_ jackhill dan64 teej keep_learning iskander
2019-05-31T12:32:29Z names: r0kc4t proksi yumh samth jyc___ cmatei lpsmith erkin pineman Riastradh dsp__ weeber_ fgudin fadein tolja fizzie uso_ DerGuteMoritz rain1 gabot
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2019-05-31T14:03:55Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/v850YRMH
2019-05-31T14:04:30Z TCZ: commented tests at the bottom  wont pass
2019-05-31T14:07:54Z TCZ: oh i forgot i had 1 idea
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2019-05-31T14:16:04Z TCZ: ok so when exponents difference is 1 i have to (* 10 mantisa)(sub1 exponent)
2019-05-31T14:16:05Z TCZ: hmm
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2019-05-31T14:44:42Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/9SE6L2tE
2019-05-31T14:44:45Z TCZ: hmm....
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2019-05-31T16:48:58Z mdhughes: Even idiomatic Scheme math code is pretty fast in Chicken & Chez, and there's probably ways to do vector math faster from them, calling C itself if necessary.
2019-05-31T16:53:57Z mdhughes: There's a BLAS egg: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/blas
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2019-05-31T16:59:43Z wasamasa: I remember a raytracer using floats being used as benchmark for CHICKEN
2019-05-31T16:59:59Z wasamasa: it didn't fare too well here, most likely due to missing unboxing at compile-time
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2019-05-31T19:08:45Z TCZ: :/
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2019-05-31T23:23:48Z TCZ: hm
2019-05-31T23:25:24Z TCZ: i googled unicon repl and result was wasamasa
2019-05-31T23:25:29Z TCZ: cool
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