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2019-04-01T00:29:01Z Riastradh: johnjay: I remember liking David Krantz's dissertation.  Long time since I read it, though, so, dunno, maybe.
2019-04-01T00:30:41Z Riastradh: The basic hard problem is to decide how to store the environment of each lambda; everything else is pretty much standard compiler back end logic like you might see in a C compiler.
2019-04-01T00:34:51Z Riastradh: Orbit takes a pretty naive approach of using what's immediately lexically apparent in a tree descent to decide which lambdas are called at which sites and therefore which free variables can be taken from the caller's environment, e.g. on the stack.
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2019-04-01T00:38:26Z Riastradh: LIAR (MIT Scheme's compiler) iteratively examines each call site and each possible lambda at that call site, updating the lambda's variables to consider any lambda arguments, and updating every call site of each variable, and so on.  (This is sometimes called `0CFA'.)
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2019-04-01T07:16:31Z ecraven: Riastradh: do you remember anything about the assembler? is it similar to the one used by MIT/GNU Scheme?
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2019-04-01T10:33:25Z amz3: o/
2019-04-01T10:33:41Z rain1: I just got mit-scheme setu p
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2019-04-01T12:17:09Z lisbeths: I had a dream that I was back in time and I met grace hopper when she was a teenager and tried to convince her to use lisp
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2019-04-01T12:22:32Z pjb: :-)
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2019-04-01T13:01:19Z DKordic: I guess You had to... stop her?
2019-04-01T13:02:07Z lisbeths: Well the dream started with me being driven around by my dad and I was in the back seat dating a girl. And she told me she was in the military so I immediately decided to dump her and we pulled over.
2019-04-01T13:02:31Z lisbeths: And then this guy with a magnum revolver tried to rob us and I bolted over a huge number of fences.
2019-04-01T13:03:21Z lisbeths: Then I ended up living in this little town that was kind of like ye olde germanytown and I went over to this house that was this rustic hole in the wall where all the walls were concrete. And grace hopper lived there and so I tried to convince her to use scheme.
2019-04-01T13:03:37Z DKordic: I thought it was to LISP or not to LISP.
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2019-04-01T13:04:14Z lisbeths: I don't think scheme existed during most of Grace Hopper's service.
2019-04-01T13:06:23Z DKordic . o O (http://axisofeval.blogspot.com/2010/06/republic-of-perl.html)
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2019-04-01T13:30:20Z LeoNerd: Eh; to be fair, perl6 is pretty crazy. Even most of us perl5 lot aren't going to touch it
2019-04-01T13:30:28Z LeoNerd: It's quite a different language from perl5
2019-04-01T13:31:08Z lisbeths: Perl6 was still hacked together but hacked together with some better experience in language design
2019-04-01T13:31:47Z lisbeths: Like if brendon eich could go back and rewrite javascript today he would make it so that variables are automatically declared by the var keyword and you would have to manually global or public if you wanted it in the global scope
2019-04-01T13:32:54Z LeoNerd: Yah; the scoping rules were a big misfeature there
2019-04-01T13:33:11Z lisbeths: Perl is a language that is kind of dedicated to slop. It's like the sort of steampunk makeshift style where you see a megastructure of conglomerated welded together scrap metal that people live inside of. A sort of shanty city built amorphously
2019-04-01T13:33:27Z lisbeths: Perl is sort of a safe haven for that and that's important cause that's kind of how unix is.
2019-04-01T13:38:46Z lisbeths: What blows my mind is that there is no standard regular expression language that has full syntactic macros
2019-04-01T13:39:58Z LeoNerd: The perl6 patterns have a whole new bunch of stuff in them; to the point they don't call them regexps any more, as it's so far removed from the original
2019-04-01T13:40:45Z lisbeths: Actual perl5 patterns go far beyond editing text and are shorthand for doing certain things in the language. That's why I think it's tragic you can't invent your own syntactic sugar
2019-04-01T13:43:26Z lisbeths: The thing about lisp is that it is amazing how you can do abslutely anything you want, but the more you learn polish notation and s expressions the more you realize that that tree of functions structure works for just about any design pattern
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2019-04-01T13:44:21Z LeoNerd: Yes; it does have a predictable uniformity to the structure that can be nice
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2019-04-01T13:48:22Z rain1: I can't  drag a file from my file manager onto the edwin window, to open it
2019-04-01T13:48:31Z rain1: so to open files I'd have to type out the path
2019-04-01T13:49:18Z ashawley: C-x C-f is the Emacsen way
2019-04-01T13:51:13Z ashawley: http://web.mit.edu/benmv/6.001/www/bpe/edwin.txt
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2019-04-01T19:36:13Z amz3: anyone had a look at https://github.com/petercrlane/r7rs-large
2019-04-01T19:36:17Z amz3: is any good?
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2019-04-01T19:38:45Z wasamasa: https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-srfis
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2019-04-01T20:03:59Z amz3: I think this is a good project for a newbie https://github.com/gothinkster/realworld/tree/master/spec
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2019-04-01T20:47:33Z Zipheir: What kind of newbie?? "Exemplary fullstack Medium.com clone powered by React, Angular, Node, Django..."
2019-04-01T20:47:54Z Zipheir: Needs more buzznames.
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2019-04-02T17:04:12Z ecraven: is there any polymorphic Scheme? coalescing length, string-length, vector-length, bytevector-length etc. all into one `length' procedure?
2019-04-02T17:04:30Z ecraven: oaklisp is the only Scheme-ly thing that comes to mind
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2019-04-02T17:14:57Z DKordic: I am afraid it wouldn't be Scheming wouldn't it ;) ?
2019-04-02T17:15:50Z gwatt: why not?
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2019-04-02T17:16:34Z ecraven: DKordic: not sure about that ;) let's say "polymorphic Scheme-like" then ;)
2019-04-02T17:20:10Z DKordic: gwatt: I am just not aware of such implementation.
2019-04-02T17:20:28Z DKordic: ecraven: We are the knights who say NIL!
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2019-04-02T18:15:21Z ecraven: interesting, the oaklisp papers and manual reference T a lot
2019-04-02T18:15:34Z ecraven: and oaklisp firmly sees itself as a Scheme, I think
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2019-04-02T18:16:34Z ecraven: does anyone here have this document:   Barak A. Pearlmutter and Kevin J. Lang. "The Implementation of Oaklisp". Topics in Advanced Language Implementation. 1991.
2019-04-02T18:22:14Z ecraven: jcowan: precedent for (define-generic (add (number? a) (number? b)) (+ a b))  [putting the "type" first, instead of last] http://www.standarddeviance.com/publications/p45-tessman.pdf
2019-04-02T18:24:12Z jcowan: Yes, I've read Tessman.
2019-04-02T18:24:30Z ecraven: I should take a long-ish holiday and just read all of library.readscheme.org
2019-04-02T18:24:57Z jcowan: Perlmutter's personal site doesn't have a link to the implementation paper, so it's fair to guess that there are none.
2019-04-02T18:26:07Z ecraven: I just ordered the book from amazon, let's see whether it is an interesting paper
2019-04-02T18:26:15Z ecraven: maybe the same information is in the oaklisp manuals anyway
2019-04-02T18:26:22Z ecraven: and maybe it just isn't relevant any longer
2019-04-02T18:27:08Z ecraven: maybe there *is* no ancient knowledge that old Scheme implementations had, that isn't used in new ones anyway.. perhaps I should better study the new ones, instead of digging up old ones
2019-04-02T18:30:29Z jcowan: Hah!  He has a paper called "Results of the Abbadingo One DFA Learning Competition", and a followup called "Gowachin".  Someone's a Cordwainer Smith / Frank Herbert fan.
2019-04-02T18:30:56Z jcowan: Old papers definitely have good information, even if old code does not.
2019-04-02T18:37:07Z ecraven: interesting, I think I never read anything by Herbert save Dune.. is the other stuff worth reading?
2019-04-02T18:38:05Z jcowan: I think a lot of the non-Dune stuff is better, actually.
2019-04-02T18:38:50Z jcowan: The Gowachin (alien species) are found in Whipping Star and the Dosadi Experiment.
2019-04-02T18:39:22Z ecraven: which book should I start with?
2019-04-02T18:39:44Z ecraven: given that I only learned about the Gowachin just now, I'd just as well start with any other book, if that makes more sense ;)
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2019-04-02T18:51:14Z jcowan: WS comes before DE in internal order as well as order of writing, but they are fairly independent.
2019-04-02T18:51:33Z ecraven: nice, thanks
2019-04-02T18:52:14Z jcowan: They form a universe independent of the Dune universe called the ConSentiency.  WS is a legal drama in which the first non-Gowachin Gowachin lawyer, a human, fights very hard to have his client proved guilty.
2019-04-02T18:52:43Z ecraven: thanks for bringing them to my attention ;)
2019-04-02T18:54:41Z jcowan: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.52.7553&rep=rep1&type=pdf is a paper about how you tell the SchemeXerox compiler about low-level data representations explicitly and in ordinary user-level code (except the representation of procedures, which is implicit).  AFAIK no other compiler has anything of the sort.
2019-04-02T18:55:29Z ecraven: thanks, very interesting
2019-04-02T18:56:01Z ecraven: Norman Adams again.. I should just read everything he published
2019-04-02T18:56:08Z jcowan: sorry, the above description was for DE, not WS!
2019-04-02T18:56:18Z ecraven: jcowan: hehe, well enough, I'll just read both
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2019-04-02T18:56:28Z jcowan: Yes, I turned that paper up on a search for the M.S. thesis you asked about.
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2019-04-02T18:57:29Z ecraven: haven't heard back from the library people yet.. I'm guessing it would not be entirely legal to scan those documents, if I actually get them, and put them somewhere for others to read? :-/
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2019-04-02T18:59:25Z gwatt: darn, my library has those herbert titles available as audiobooks but not ebooks
2019-04-02T19:02:22Z jcowan: available as ebooks from Amazon for USD$8 each, at least to me.
2019-04-02T19:02:54Z ecraven: I understand the problems, but I really wish there were some way to pay 1k$ each year and just access *everything* older than 5 or 10 years digitally...
2019-04-02T19:03:12Z jcowan: (licensing on ebooks varies with country, alas)
2019-04-02T19:03:29Z gwatt: I could probably go to the library and find physical copies
2019-04-02T19:03:32Z gwatt: for free
2019-04-02T19:04:31Z jcowan: Indeed.  Generally speaking I just buy books (e or physical) if they are available for less than US$5 without taking further trouble.  $8 is my "hmm, think about it" threshold.
2019-04-02T19:04:40Z jcowan: There is another trick, though ....
2019-04-02T19:05:29Z ecraven: well, libgen etc. have a lot of stuff, but legality varies quite a lot there
2019-04-02T19:06:40Z ecraven: off for tonight, thanks for all the things to read!
2019-04-02T19:07:10Z jcowan: Whipping Star available online at https://7lafa.com/book.php?id=62415, not very legal, but hey, the author is dead and his heirs must be rich.
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2019-04-02T19:08:27Z jcowan: and DE at https://7lafa.com/pagebooks.php?id=62659
2019-04-02T19:08:42Z gwatt: I know Brian is milking the Dune stories for all they're worth
2019-04-02T19:13:08Z ecraven: there's a new film supposed to come out soon, right?
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2019-04-02T19:15:48Z gwatt: I think so. Dune's just a really hard book to turn into film
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2019-04-02T19:27:33Z Zipheir: The legend of Jodorowsky's 'perfect' Dune movie lives on...
2019-04-02T19:28:05Z jcowan thinks people who want to copyright their works should have to pay heavily for it
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2019-04-02T19:29:10Z jcowan: This business of holding copyright on my laundry list is absurd, and the fact that a letter written by John Adams (2nd U.S. President) in 1755, before there was a U.S., will be in U.S. copyright until 2052, is obscene.
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2019-04-02T19:33:10Z Zipheir: Just going back to the pre-Berne Convention rule of no automatic copyright registration would relieve a little bit of the insanity.
2019-04-02T19:34:02Z Zipheir: And the insanity will now be much greater in a post-EU Copyright Directive world.
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2019-04-02T19:38:27Z Zipheir: jcowan: That's an interesting idea, to charge copyright holders a tax to offset their non-contribution to the public domain :)
2019-04-02T19:39:50Z jcowan: It's a kind of property tax.  In both cases, real property and copyright, someone is buying the right to exclude all others, and should in justice (as well as economically) pay the others for that.
2019-04-02T19:41:20Z Zipheir: I worry that perhaps that would validate the bogus 'intellectual property' concept.
2019-04-02T19:41:39Z Zipheir: "Sure it's property!  I pay taxes on it!"
2019-04-02T19:42:19Z jcowan: If the Earth's land surface were divided up such that we all got 8 hectares  / 18 acres of it dealt out at random, it would be impossible to exploit the resource efficiently.  So we allow some to have more than others, but we don't in general require the some to pay the others for depriving them of their rights, at least not proportionately to the actual market value of the land.
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2019-04-02T19:45:33Z jcowan: Mickey Mouse is currently worth $178 billion according to Forbes.  Let Disney keep him as long as they are willing to pay $8 billion a year (4%) in property taxes.
2019-04-02T19:45:53Z Zipheir: Fair enough.
2019-04-02T19:46:20Z rain1: hi
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2019-04-02T19:46:51Z Zipheir: The obvious comment is that copyrightable data is infinite, so the reasoning based on finite physical resources can't be applied directly.
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2019-04-02T19:50:01Z Zipheir: But the fact that very few new cultural artifacts will go into the public domain during the lifetime of anyone now alive is certainly taking something from humanity, imo.
2019-04-02T19:54:07Z jcowan: It is.  Disney itself has made a fortune adapting public-domain stories.
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2019-04-02T23:02:06Z Riastradh: ecraven: Not that much different conceptually from MIT Scheme.  The way the instruction set descriptions work is a little different.  MIT Scheme's assembler proper works functionally on a data structure of an instruction stream; Orbit's generates it imperatively as state.
2019-04-02T23:02:31Z Riastradh: ecraven: But the basic ideas are all the same -- generate code with variable-width parts, use a heuristic to minimize the variable-width parts, turn the instruction stream into bits.
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2019-04-02T23:20:57Z pjb: Is there really a property tax on intellectual property in the US?
2019-04-02T23:21:35Z Zipheir: No.
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2019-04-03T01:04:51Z jcowan: pjb: No, I'm just saying all monopolies should pay tax for the right to maintain them, and in the U.S. copyrights and patents are explicitly monopolies, not any kind of natural right.
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2019-04-03T01:14:34Z pjb: jcowan: ok.  But again, the notion of patent and copyright was supposed to promote the publication, as the alternative to keeping secret your knowledge.
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2019-04-03T01:15:43Z pjb: jcowan: the free software movement tries to fight the secrets of privative software, by providing some open competition.  Note that the free software movement is based on the copyright (using copyleft licenses).
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2019-04-03T01:16:34Z Zipheir: Some use copyleft, some don't.
2019-04-03T01:16:38Z pjb: Therefore I'm not sure taxing IP would be a good thing.  There's already a tax on patent (cost of getting one, and lawyer cost of fighting for them).
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2019-04-03T01:17:52Z pjb: Zipheir: MIT/BSD etc are not efficient against privative software: they're perfectly compatible with it, and they're used by corporation to help them develop privative software.  Basically, MIT/BSD is an ego-trip: the author counts the number of uses.
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2019-04-03T01:18:32Z Zipheir: Ugh.  I'm not going down the permissive-vs-copyleft rathole.
2019-04-03T01:18:45Z jcowan: Copyleft is intended to benefit the users, not the authors.  GPL users are generous sharers (for the most part), BSD users are generous givers (for the most part).
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2019-04-03T01:19:02Z jcowan: Note that gift economies aren't necessarily ego trips, any more than market economies are.
2019-04-03T01:19:38Z pjb: We're not in a gift economy, since we have to use the copyright and other legal framework. :-(
2019-04-03T01:23:01Z jcowan: Under the monopoly-tax regime (aka Physiocracy), something with no commercial value can be copyrighted with no tax.
2019-04-03T01:24:55Z jcowan: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiocratie
2019-04-03T01:25:20Z jcowan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism
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2019-04-03T05:14:54Z ecraven: jcowan: thanks for that SchemeXerox paper, very interesting read... do you know if the source code for that Scheme is around anywhere?
2019-04-03T05:16:00Z jcowan: Unlikely, I'd say.  It would be Xerox's property, not the author's, hence the relevance of all that huffle above about copyright.  Open-source software plus the redundancy of the Web makes it harder (but still not impossible) to lose things than it used to be.
2019-04-03T05:16:52Z jcowan: I was asked by an interviewer recently to show them some of my code with commentary.  I picked one of my SRFIs and spelled out what it does, how, and why.  They asked me if I didn't have any applications to show, and I had to say no, all the applications I ever wrote or worked on were proprietary.
2019-04-03T05:17:05Z jcowan: When I write for myself, it's almost always libraries and infrastructure.
2019-04-03T05:22:34Z pjb: indeed.
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2019-04-03T19:24:20Z razzy: hi, having trouble compiling https://github.com/carld/micro-lisp/blob/master/mlisp89.c
2019-04-03T19:24:25Z razzy: i am not very good at C compiling
2019-04-03T19:25:34Z razzy: http://ix.io/1FfC
2019-04-03T19:28:36Z johnjay: jcowan: i think it was you, Zipheir , or aeth who was saying elisp programmers most of the time aren't even proper lisp programmers
2019-04-03T19:28:42Z johnjay: they are just C or java programmers trying to get a mode working
2019-04-03T19:28:48Z johnjay: how does one become a "real" lisp programmer?
2019-04-03T19:28:54Z johnjay: SICP?
2019-04-03T19:29:21Z razzy: johnjay: you build your own lisp and AI in it?
2019-04-03T19:31:24Z johnjay: hmm
2019-04-03T19:39:48Z Riastradh: No true Scotsprogrammer would...
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2019-04-03T20:10:51Z aeth: johnjay: I think that was me. jcowan is considerably more diplomatic than I am.
2019-04-03T20:11:56Z aeth: johnjay: You learn Lisp primarily by writing a lot of it as long as you attempt to write it idiomatically. This last part is where a lot of practical elisp fails
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2019-04-03T20:14:57Z aeth: Some idioms will differ by dialect based on features/performance. e.g. The Little Schemer iirc is primarily about Scheme-specific tail recursive idioms iirc.
2019-04-03T20:15:01Z razzy: anyone can help with lisp interpretter compilation?
2019-04-03T20:17:08Z aeth: johnjay: So it's a bit difficult because you need to know what idioms are portable and which aren't
2019-04-03T20:17:49Z aeth: Knowing a language is easier than knowing a language family.
2019-04-03T20:18:43Z johnjay: meaning, people in elisp won't use the idiomatic lisp way of writing something when they can
2019-04-03T20:18:49Z johnjay: ?
2019-04-03T20:19:11Z johnjay: e.g. writing (+ 1 var) instead of (1+ var)?
2019-04-03T20:25:39Z Zipheir: That's in old Scheme too.  Check the SICP lectures.
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2019-04-03T20:31:13Z wasamasa: razzy: you'll have to like, figure out how the author made it work
2019-04-03T20:31:27Z wasamasa: razzy: start by looking for funopen, I'm pretty sure that's a non-standard extension
2019-04-03T20:33:00Z Zipheir: johnjay: Also, on the subject of being a "real x" (not X!) "programmer": http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html
2019-04-03T20:37:53Z jcowan: Diplomatically I'd say there are different kinds of Lisp programmers.
2019-04-03T20:40:59Z razzy: wasamasa: thx. i will leave it for today.
2019-04-03T20:41:17Z jcowan: Bob Chassell (who I knew a little bit from Lojban) sent me _An Inroduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp_, and I was very impressed by it.  It's aimed squarely at non-programmers who want to customize Emacs a bit, but it ends up teaching you quite a lot of Lisp.
2019-04-03T20:41:39Z jcowan: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/Who-You-Are.html#Who-You-Are is the section that tells you who the book is written for and not written for.
2019-04-03T20:42:35Z wasamasa: I guess it's not written for me
2019-04-03T20:45:02Z Zipheir: Hah, the quote about "diving in and coming up for air" reminded me of ESR's bragging about how he regularly "consumed" reference texts in a few hours.
2019-04-03T20:45:28Z jcowan: Well, I do too, but it's more of a trick than a moral virtue.
2019-04-03T20:46:35Z johnjay:   hmm i wonder if i should dive into that
2019-04-03T20:46:37Z johnjay: or into SICP n ext
2019-04-03T20:49:15Z Zipheir: SICP! SICP!
2019-04-03T20:54:24Z wasamasa: johnjay: personally, I wouldn't bother
2019-04-03T20:54:44Z wasamasa: johnjay: it teaches you some lisp basics, then goes over built-in buffer functions and their implementation until you're sick of them
2019-04-03T20:55:08Z wasamasa: johnjay: I mean, sure, everyone ends up reading lots of crappy elisp to learn elisp, but you can do a lot better when it comes to teaching
2019-04-03T20:55:59Z johnjay: well i meant for learning lisp in general
2019-04-03T20:56:00Z johnjay: i'm honestly not sure what to read for elisp unless it's that one just mentioned
2019-04-03T20:56:53Z wasamasa: well, the alternatives besides this are an outdated book on writing emacs packages (which isn't too bad) and the reference
2019-04-03T20:57:13Z johnjay: what's the first one?
2019-04-03T20:57:24Z johnjay: maybe i should write the definitive book on learning emacs lisp
2019-04-03T20:58:09Z wasamasa: the one we just talked about, duh
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2019-04-03T20:58:54Z wasamasa: or maybe you mean http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781565922617.do
2019-04-03T20:59:09Z wasamasa: it needs a new revision
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2019-04-03T21:04:08Z johnjay: i thought that one
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2019-04-03T21:20:05Z johnjay: Zipheir: the story of Mel probably would make more sense if I understood the example.
2019-04-03T21:20:07Z johnjay: but it was nicely written
2019-04-03T21:21:00Z Zipheir: The too-good-at-blackjack blackjack game?
2019-04-03T21:23:15Z Zipheir: It's more of a reductio ad absurdam.  No one beats Mel for hacker cred.
2019-04-03T21:24:36Z Zipheir: ... and no one should, because Mel's programs were incomprehensible, if brilliant.
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2019-04-03T23:36:42Z johnjay: Zipheir: i meant the part about the looping back with an empty loop because the index register was used
2019-04-03T23:53:23Z johnjay: but yeah that part was good too
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2019-04-04T10:39:02Z siraben: anyone know of a pretty printer that can print http://ix.io/1FhO ?
2019-04-04T10:39:19Z siraben: Guile is taking forever to print it
2019-04-04T10:41:34Z siraben: Huh CPU usage isn't even bulging
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2019-04-04T11:04:15Z ecraven: siraben: chez does fine on it
2019-04-04T11:05:19Z ecraven: so does mit, after replacing [] with ()
2019-04-04T11:06:01Z siraben: ecraven: I just tested Chez, it works!
2019-04-04T11:06:09Z siraben: Huh Guile must have a faulty read somewhere
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2019-04-04T14:49:13Z johnjay: hmm, when should you add scheme as an extension language to a program
2019-04-04T14:49:23Z johnjay: such as a system which emulates the nintendo switch?
2019-04-04T14:49:27Z johnjay: hypothetically speaking
2019-04-04T14:56:23Z pjb: johnjay: always.
2019-04-04T14:56:41Z pjb: |----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
2019-04-04T14:56:41Z pjb: | Steve Yegge's Law:          Systems should never reboot.                         |
2019-04-04T14:56:41Z pjb: | Steve Yegge's Corrolary:    Systems must be able to grow without rebooting.      |
2019-04-04T14:56:41Z pjb: | Steve Yegge's Features:                                                          |
2019-04-04T14:56:41Z pjb: | 1- Every great system has a command shell.                                       |
2019-04-04T14:56:41Z pjb: | 2- Great systems have also advice (hooks).                                       |
2019-04-04T14:56:42Z pjb: | 3- World-class software systems have an extension language and a plug-in system. |
2019-04-04T14:56:42Z pjb: | 4- Great software systems are introspective.                                     |
2019-04-04T14:56:43Z pjb: |----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
2019-04-04T14:56:43Z pjb:  
2019-04-04T14:57:10Z johnjay: lol...
2019-04-04T14:57:28Z johnjay: well i got #3 then
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2019-04-04T15:08:48Z johnjay: hmm
2019-04-04T15:08:50Z johnjay: There's a minimal bootstrap layer, which as we will see functions as the system's hardware, and the rest of the system, to the greatest extent possible (as dictated by performance, usually), is written in the extension language.
2019-04-04T15:09:15Z johnjay: so is it called a plugin system if this language is small and an extension language if it's a large proportion of the system?
2019-04-04T15:09:33Z johnjay: e.g. gimp is written mostly in c, but it has a scheme thing on top of it. is that a plugin or an extension?
2019-04-04T15:10:04Z gwatt: what in your mind is the practical difference between a plugin and an extension?
2019-04-04T15:10:10Z johnjay: what i just said?
2019-04-04T15:10:39Z johnjay: gimp is not written mostly in scheme
2019-04-04T15:11:12Z johnjay: so is it a 'plugin' if it's a small added layer on top, vs an extension if like emacs most of the system is in it
2019-04-04T15:11:45Z gwatt: size is the only (or at least the most important) distinction between plugin and extension?
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2019-04-04T15:12:53Z pjb: johnjay: well, if you use a real programming language instead of a toy, you can write the whole application in it.  It's then easier to provide an extensibility API.
2019-04-04T15:13:16Z johnjay: that's how steve was putting it i think
2019-04-04T15:13:29Z pjb: johnjay: emacs is written in C because RMS was not able to implement an efficient lisp (on the hardware available to him in 1980).
2019-04-04T15:13:37Z pjb: Today, you would just use sbcl or ccl.
2019-04-04T15:13:56Z johnjay: pjb: so if it's something that has to be mostly in C for performance, does that make it hard to do the things on that list?
2019-04-04T15:14:14Z pjb: johnjay: yes. My point is that the extension language can be the implementation language, should be even.
2019-04-04T15:14:15Z johnjay: or you just have the interface in say scheme and the core logic in C like emacs
2019-04-04T15:14:44Z johnjay: ok that's what motivated my question, if you can't do that then is it "merely" a plugin system
2019-04-04T15:14:49Z pjb: johnjay: nowadays, things don't have to be C for performance. The only case you'd use C, would be for ease of access to baroque C APIs.
2019-04-04T15:14:51Z johnjay: like n64 emulators had plugins for graphics say
2019-04-04T15:14:55Z johnjay: or notepad++ plugins
2019-04-04T15:15:12Z johnjay: games have to be c/c++ for performance
2019-04-04T15:15:19Z johnjay: he mentioned quakeC lol
2019-04-04T15:15:23Z johnjay: is that like a dialect of C?
2019-04-04T15:16:06Z pjb: well, plug-ins provide a more restricted API, for a more specific functionality.
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2019-04-04T15:17:04Z pjb: It's better to have an extension API.  Ie, basically, letting the user patch the application however he wants.
2019-04-04T15:17:35Z pjb: Studying the implementation of GNU emacs (C + emacs lisp), and that of Hemlock (pure Common Lisp) should be instructive.
2019-04-04T15:19:12Z pjb: If the application already exist, then you need to glue the lisp with the existing program, and provide an API into the program. This is more work.
2019-04-04T15:19:26Z jcowan: All arguments for C boil down to performance: something your use case simply cannot pay the price for.  Automatic memory management is the obvious one.
2019-04-04T15:19:46Z pjb: jcowan: http://cliki.net/Performance
2019-04-04T15:20:12Z pjb: If the application doesn't exist, then it's easier to design it to be extensible, and implement it entirely in lisp.
2019-04-04T15:20:28Z pjb: jcowan: basically, sbcl generate code that is as fast as gcc.
2019-04-04T15:20:41Z pjb: Sometimes even faster.
2019-04-04T15:20:56Z jcowan: I don't doubt it, provided the program never conses.
2019-04-04T15:21:18Z pjb: Because you never call malloc in C?
2019-04-04T15:21:21Z johnjay: yeah so i guess i'm just thinking of a practical case
2019-04-04T15:21:26Z johnjay: of an existin application that is mostly in C
2019-04-04T15:21:37Z johnjay: in that case all you can really do is bolt on some kind of gimp-like scheme plugin thing
2019-04-04T15:21:38Z pjb: Actually, since there's no GC, and there's const in C, you need to duplicate a lot more data in C programs than in lisp. It's sloer.
2019-04-04T15:21:41Z pjb: slower.
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2019-04-04T15:22:49Z pjb: If you have an existing application, you would have to choose a lisp implementation that can be linked with the C program.  ECL (libecl) would be a good choice.  IIRC, there is also a couple of schemes available in library form.
2019-04-04T15:22:51Z jcowan: In applications where C is a necessity rather than a prejudice, you never call malloc, and it may not even exist.
2019-04-04T15:24:38Z jcowan: In the standard, "freestanding" implementations of C (gcc -ffreestanding) don't even have the malloc.h header.
2019-04-04T15:24:47Z aeth: C gives you (1) low memory use (good for embedded), (2) compatibility with libraries (good in many places, maybe necessary in embedded), (3) the currently best optimizing compilers out there (in speed, which is often opposing reliability here)
2019-04-04T15:25:19Z jcowan: I think Fortran still edges out C in the matter of optimization.
2019-04-04T15:25:25Z pjb: anyways, gcc -ffreestanding -lgc ;-)
2019-04-04T15:25:35Z aeth: jcowan: but is it gfortran? :-)
2019-04-04T15:26:19Z jcowan chuckles
2019-04-04T15:26:46Z jcowan: Fortran's anti-aliasing rules are generally cited as an advantage over C-ish languages.
2019-04-04T15:28:04Z aeth: johnjay: Games aren't C/C++, they're C++, and they're C++ because of libraries, especially commercial middleware the developers have no control over. CFFI is (usually) easy. C++FFI is much harder.
2019-04-04T15:28:25Z johnjay: ah ok didn't realize that
2019-04-04T15:28:27Z pjb: there's clasp for CL+C++
2019-04-04T15:28:30Z aeth: johnjay: I mean, yes, performance matters and they're not going to be in Ruby or PHP because of that, but there are like 10-15 other languages they could be in if it wasn't for libraries
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2019-04-04T15:30:55Z aeth: (It took games until 2004 or later to move from C to C++, so you might be thinking of an old game.)
2019-04-04T15:33:25Z aeth: pjb: as far as SBCL being as fast as GCC, afaik, it can reach C-like speeds if the C compiler isn't generating SIMD, which the SBCL compiler does not do (unless you directly make implementation-specific SIMD objects, of course).
2019-04-04T15:34:45Z aeth: (You also have to turn on (safety 0) which is sort of like a benchmark cheating mode.)
2019-04-04T15:35:07Z jcowan: Fortran also has libraries (within its domain) that make anyone else's look small and feeble; fully documented, thoroughly debugged, in many cases in use for many decades
2019-04-04T15:35:27Z aeth: yes, languages tend to have domain niches
2019-04-04T15:36:25Z aeth: Fortran's niche is primarily the stuff used in hardware benchmarking. I wonder what percentage of benchmarks used today still are in Fortran
2019-04-04T15:37:24Z aeth: (I don't mean its niche is benchmarking, I mean its numerical niche is often used for benchmarking.)
2019-04-04T15:38:54Z jcowan: A large fraction of all floating-point benchmarks definitely are in Fortran.
2019-04-04T15:41:08Z pjb: aeth: using C is also a benchmark cheating mode.
2019-04-04T15:41:53Z pjb: aeth:  it would be interesting to make the comparison again, with gcc -fsanitize=address -fsanitize=null -fsanitize=bounds -fsanitize=vla-bound -fsanitize=object-size -fsanitize=unreachable -fsanitize=return -fsanitize=shift -fsanitize=shift-exponent -fsanitize=shift-base -fsanitize=integer-divide-by-zero -fsanitize=signed-integer-overflow -fsanitize=float-divide-by-zero -fsanitize=float-cast-overflow -fsanitize=nonnull-attribut
2019-04-04T15:42:07Z johnjay: maybe i'll look up gimp now
2019-04-04T15:42:18Z johnjay: since that's the only application i can think of with a scheme added to it
2019-04-04T15:42:32Z wasamasa: look at guile users
2019-04-04T15:42:42Z johnjay: oh hey wasamasa
2019-04-04T15:42:43Z wasamasa: like lilypond, gnucash, guilemacs
2019-04-04T15:43:14Z johnjay: my calculator can now read octal and hex numbers (#emacs)
2019-04-04T15:44:16Z jcowan: also lots and lots of malware uses TinyScheme for extensibility, not that the maintainer encourages this.
2019-04-04T15:45:28Z wasamasa: do you have any sources other than that one interview by an author of one such malware?
2019-04-04T15:46:12Z johnjay: jcowan: didn't realize fortran was so rock solid and tested that much.
2019-04-04T15:50:40Z jcowan: wasamasa: No.
2019-04-04T15:51:05Z wasamasa: sure, it spread pretty far, far enough to call it the most successful use of tinyscheme
2019-04-04T15:54:18Z johnjay: according to github the GIMP project does use tinyscheme
2019-04-04T16:02:03Z johnjay: anyway i was thinking of a gaming emulator thing like project64 or yuzu where it's emulating a nintendo thing
2019-04-04T16:02:19Z johnjay: i'm not sure how guile and/or ecl extension would work there
2019-04-04T16:02:26Z johnjay: but sounds cool
2019-04-04T16:02:29Z wasamasa: why would you need them there?
2019-04-04T16:02:40Z johnjay: i don't know, that's why i'm asking
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2019-04-04T16:02:51Z johnjay: gimp has scheme and i did some stuff in there with automation
2019-04-04T16:02:58Z johnjay: like, programming a sequence of drawing operations
2019-04-04T16:03:03Z johnjay: tinyscheme i guess
2019-04-04T16:03:11Z wasamasa: I mean, sure, some emulators have lua scripting for TAS
2019-04-04T16:03:14Z johnjay: so maybe with those TAS th ings
2019-04-04T16:03:22Z johnjay: yes that
2019-04-04T16:03:27Z wasamasa: but then, that's not what you're worrying about when writing an emulator
2019-04-04T16:03:49Z johnjay: you could program your own graphics and mods maybe?
2019-04-04T16:03:50Z wasamasa: you can worry about that once you have a well working one popular enough to be used by people who can pull off speedruns
2019-04-04T16:03:51Z johnjay: idk
2019-04-04T16:03:56Z wasamasa: well, that's done via shaders
2019-04-04T16:04:05Z wasamasa: not in software
2019-04-04T16:04:09Z johnjay: hmm
2019-04-04T16:04:22Z wasamasa: the only reason I see for scripting here is debugging purposes
2019-04-04T16:04:30Z wasamasa: but if you're writing your own emulator, well, no need
2019-04-04T16:04:37Z wasamasa: you can write your own debugger just fine
2019-04-04T16:05:35Z wasamasa: that's the route martin went with no$gba and the rest of the line-up
2019-04-04T16:07:13Z wasamasa: shoot for something less big and you'll find a valid reason to embed a scripting language :>
2019-04-04T16:07:16Z johnjay: yeah no$gba was awesome
2019-04-04T16:07:24Z johnjay: i suppose writing your own debugger would have to happen on some way
2019-04-04T16:07:36Z wasamasa: I got away with not writing one for chip8.el
2019-04-04T16:07:50Z wasamasa: logging was sufficient
2019-04-04T16:07:54Z johnjay: well that's the smallest possible emulator i know of
2019-04-04T16:08:04Z johnjay: the nintendo DS is a complex beast
2019-04-04T16:09:48Z wasamasa: think of a project that's designed to be extensible
2019-04-04T16:10:02Z wasamasa: emulating a machine as closely as possible is pretty much the opposite of that
2019-04-04T16:14:00Z johnjay: interesting
2019-04-04T16:14:04Z johnjay: didn't think about it that way
2019-04-04T16:14:20Z johnjay: the only way extensibility would make sense would be for homebrew
2019-04-04T16:14:29Z johnjay: and as you said you would use shaders for that
2019-04-04T16:14:32Z wasamasa: like, suppose you make an interactive environment (kind of like emacs really), but with a simpler goal
2019-04-04T16:14:39Z wasamasa: like one where you do turtle graphics
2019-04-04T16:14:50Z wasamasa: or explore lissajous patterns
2019-04-04T16:15:32Z wasamasa: both are pretty simple at their core, but profit immensely from having a tighter feedback loop for experimentation
2019-04-04T16:15:55Z wasamasa: the Programming In Scheme book has both as exercises using an IBM PC scheme
2019-04-04T16:16:12Z wasamasa: part of the exercise is porting that stuff to a modern PC :>
2019-04-04T16:21:17Z wasamasa: so far I only ported the circle^2 one: https://niu.moe/@wasamasa/99910498378166361
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2019-04-04T16:24:07Z johnjay: i was just reading about turtle graphics
2019-04-04T16:24:19Z johnjay: someone was posting about how guile's picture language was a useful teaching tool
2019-04-04T16:24:27Z johnjay: i assume they were talking about something like racket's turtle graphics
2019-04-04T16:24:50Z johnjay: ooh interesting
2019-04-04T16:25:28Z wasamasa: the book says it takes like 20 minutes to render a single one of these
2019-04-04T16:25:43Z johnjay: lol M-x doctor to the internet
2019-04-04T16:25:46Z johnjay: sounds like a trainwreck
2019-04-04T16:25:53Z johnjay: ouch
2019-04-04T16:25:58Z wasamasa: well, such was life in the early 90ies or so
2019-04-04T16:26:03Z johnjay: that's pretty far short of perlin noise
2019-04-04T16:26:06Z johnjay: but cool looking
2019-04-04T16:26:12Z wasamasa: 1987
2019-04-04T16:26:35Z wasamasa: 30 years later and I can turn it into an interactive environment
2019-04-04T16:26:38Z wasamasa: not at 60fps though
2019-04-04T16:28:01Z siraben: Phew.  Implemented let and cond
2019-04-04T16:28:23Z siraben: let*, then letrec, and I believe define is just glorified letrec
2019-04-04T16:28:59Z johnjay: what's the book called?
2019-04-04T16:29:02Z johnjay: is it that green one?
2019-04-04T16:29:16Z wasamasa: Programming In Scheme (1987)
2019-04-04T16:29:25Z johnjay: oh ok
2019-04-04T16:29:32Z wasamasa: it feels much like SICP, but actually designed for teaching you the language
2019-04-04T16:29:35Z johnjay recalls doing fractal graphics in racket
2019-04-04T16:29:48Z wasamasa: the book then recommends you to do SICP if you're not challenged enough
2019-04-04T16:29:48Z johnjay: yes you disparaged SICP before
2019-04-04T16:29:57Z johnjay: but everyone told me it's the best book to learn scheme!
2019-04-04T16:30:08Z wasamasa: SICP is great if you can easily grasp scheme and are looking for the big insights
2019-04-04T16:30:31Z johnjay: i think the course i did on scheme we didn't even use it
2019-04-04T16:30:42Z johnjay: just lecture notes and problem sets. like drawing fractels in racket
2019-04-04T16:31:10Z johnjay: then weird exams that involved hypothetical exercises about recursion
2019-04-04T16:31:25Z siraben: SICP barely teaches Scheme
2019-04-04T16:31:26Z siraben: If only they really used pattern matching instead of huge cond clauses
2019-04-04T16:31:44Z johnjay: siraben: as soon as i finish this elisp book i'm learning scheme
2019-04-04T16:31:52Z johnjay: so if you have a better book now's the time
2019-04-04T16:32:11Z siraben: Which elisp book?
2019-04-04T16:32:13Z johnjay: once a book is chosen, it can not be unchosen
2019-04-04T16:32:22Z johnjay: Learning Emacs
2019-04-04T16:32:31Z wasamasa: another point in favor of the other book: prolog-style pattern matching is one of the exercises you go through
2019-04-04T16:32:43Z johnjay: the one that has ESR as an author so i just say he wrote it. but he's like 5th in the list
2019-04-04T16:32:54Z siraben: Also, it depends on what you want to do.  If you like Emacs Lisp, then Common Lisp would be pretty practical too and you can read Practical Common Lisp
2019-04-04T16:33:03Z siraben: But SICP is better if you want knowledge that sticks
2019-04-04T16:33:20Z johnjay: siraben: scheme has more active development in it though
2019-04-04T16:33:37Z johnjay: i never hear people bring up CLRFI
2019-04-04T16:34:07Z siraben: Hm I always thought Common Lisp was the "industrial" lisp
2019-04-04T16:34:17Z wasamasa: the wind has changed
2019-04-04T16:34:35Z wasamasa: even banks switch to java and C#
2019-04-04T16:34:41Z Duns_Scrotus: common lisp is the "usenet" lisp
2019-04-04T16:34:44Z siraben: Also from what I can tell, Racket has a lot of activity too
2019-04-04T16:35:01Z wasamasa: so you'd be better off learning clojure and getting a job using it
2019-04-04T16:35:06Z siraben: "the answer my friend, is blowing in the wind, the answer..."
2019-04-04T16:35:43Z siraben: So Scheme is regaining interest again?
2019-04-04T16:38:24Z siraben: wasamasa:  Ah, and then there's Clojure
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2019-04-04T16:57:33Z johnjay: clojure heh
2019-04-04T16:57:49Z johnjay: it has a fancy icon but that's all of it i know
2019-04-04T16:57:57Z johnjay: i guess if you need to get paid to code in lisp that's the way
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2019-04-04T17:08:24Z petercommand: what's the difference between racket ande scdheme?
2019-04-04T17:08:30Z petercommand: I am new to both
2019-04-04T17:08:52Z petercommand: *and scheme
2019-04-04T17:09:50Z johnjay: racket e. { x | x is a scheme}
2019-04-04T17:09:53Z johnjay: thus racket is a scheme
2019-04-04T17:10:17Z petercommand: e.? like, \in?
2019-04-04T17:11:25Z johnjay: exactly
2019-04-04T17:11:32Z johnjay: you'd be surprised how many math symbols you can type on irc
2019-04-04T17:11:36Z johnjay: https://www.slant.co/topics/5282/~scheme-implementations
2019-04-04T17:12:16Z petercommand: johnjay: I thought scheme is a single language defined by standards like r7rs and r6rs
2019-04-04T17:12:23Z johnjay: here is ecraven's benchmarks of schemes on an intel i7
2019-04-04T17:12:25Z johnjay: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2019-04-04T17:12:41Z johnjay: petercommand: precisely. it's a minimal standard
2019-04-04T17:12:53Z johnjay: so everybody and their dog has their own implementation + libraries of it
2019-04-04T17:13:05Z petercommand: ah
2019-04-04T17:13:30Z johnjay: apparently there's even an entire system of SRFI (Scheme Requsts for Implementation) you can browse
2019-04-04T17:13:41Z johnjay: https://srfi.schemers.org/
2019-04-04T17:15:12Z johnjay: finally to learn scheme you can read either SICP or this book
2019-04-04T17:15:15Z johnjay: https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Scheme-Michael-Eisenberg/dp/0894261150
2019-04-04T17:15:26Z johnjay: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/index.html
2019-04-04T17:15:50Z johnjay: but wasamasa said it's hard to get the graphics to work since it was from 1987... so yeah
2019-04-04T17:16:13Z petercommand: thanks
2019-04-04T17:16:44Z johnjay: you're welcome
2019-04-04T17:18:20Z petercommand: johnjay: any particular SRFI that you find interesting?
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2019-04-04T17:20:38Z ecraven: the graphics work fine in racket, for example
2019-04-04T17:23:01Z petercommand: johnjay: curious
2019-04-04T17:24:48Z petercommand: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-165/srfi-165.html stumbling upon this, wondering if there is something like do-notation in scheme
2019-04-04T17:24:59Z petercommand: #The Environment Monad
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2019-04-04T17:58:05Z wasamasa: johnjay: I said it's a challenge
2019-04-04T17:58:18Z wasamasa: johnjay: personally, I found it fun, I ended up doing it with cairo, then integrated it into sdl2
2019-04-04T17:58:22Z wasamasa: johnjay: a weekend well spent
2019-04-04T17:59:42Z jcowan: petercommand: No, not yet.  (There's something called 'do', but it's about looping, not monads.)
2019-04-04T18:00:14Z jcowan: I'm going to provide a bunch of monadic SRFIs in the medium future.
2019-04-04T18:00:43Z petercommand: :D
2019-04-04T18:32:40Z johnjay: jcowan: i guess when you think functional programming the only ones that come to my mind are haskell and scheme/lisp
2019-04-04T18:32:57Z ecraven: johnjay: scheme/lisp is not functional, but there are many others
2019-04-04T18:33:05Z wasamasa: clojure is close enough
2019-04-04T18:33:49Z ecraven: well, if you mention "haskell" and "functional", then I don't think the definition of "functional" includes many Schemes / Lisps.. not quite sure about clojure, but at least CL and Scheme are definitely out
2019-04-04T18:37:02Z petercommand: johnjay: idris!
2019-04-04T18:37:29Z petercommand: idris/ocaml etc
2019-04-04T18:37:38Z petercommand: or standard ML
2019-04-04T18:37:46Z wasamasa: standard ml isn't particularly functional either
2019-04-04T18:37:58Z wasamasa: it's pretty much scheme with pattern matching and static types
2019-04-04T18:38:16Z wasamasa: you tend to do functional style, but nobody forces it upon you
2019-04-04T18:38:52Z wasamasa: now in clojure, mutation is limited to concurrency data structures, java interop and some funny thing used to improve performance (which you'll probably never use)
2019-04-04T18:39:19Z wasamasa: transients
2019-04-04T18:40:02Z ecraven: from my very limited knowledge, clojure is like erlang, almost totally functional (with a few escape hatches)
2019-04-04T18:41:56Z wasamasa: yup
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2019-04-04T19:35:14Z aeth: pjb: I say turning safety off is cheating because it's not idiomatic Lisp (for any Lisp). It is idiomatic C... You get safety in C by doing your own checks and turning off the optimizer so those checks don't get removed.
2019-04-04T19:35:59Z aeth: So adding checks and not using -O3 is probably faster and more idiomatic than using the compiler (or valgrind) for safety. More work, too, obviously.
2019-04-04T19:36:37Z aeth: johnjay: GIMP's Scheme isn't very mainstream. Is it used outside of GIMP (and malware)?
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2019-04-04T19:37:21Z aeth: ecraven: Before Haskell's monads you couldn't really have "pure functional"/"functional" (depending on your definition) in meaningful, useful code.
2019-04-04T19:37:26Z aeth: At least, not for the entire program.
2019-04-04T19:38:15Z aeth: wasamasa: I'd probably use a ML if I didn't program in Lisps. Close enough.
2019-04-04T19:38:30Z aeth: (And fast enough.)
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2019-04-04T20:01:22Z johnjay:  i'm kinda blown away by this idea of not using -O3 and just using your own checks
2019-04-04T20:01:42Z johnjay: at least valgrind was really big in one C book i used
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2019-04-04T20:39:41Z aeth: johnjay: the problem with optimizing C afaik is that -O3 removes checks that people put in their code
2019-04-04T20:41:39Z wasamasa: never go beyond -O2
2019-04-04T20:41:53Z wasamasa: or in the case of CHICKEN, never go beyond -O3
2019-04-04T20:42:03Z wasamasa: it's just too much trouble
2019-04-04T20:42:32Z wasamasa: I've done it for one file with a tight loop and am considering to just translate this one to C
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2019-04-04T21:57:03Z jcowan: I consider typical Lisp programming to be functional, though it's true it''s not pure.  ML isn't quite pure either (it has ref cells).
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2019-04-05T03:30:03Z aeth: jcowan: I personally find that the style that works best is what I call "mostly functional". Lots of small, pure functions feeding into mutable data structures.
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2019-04-05T05:46:53Z ecraven: jcowan: isn't much of CL programming CLOS, which is not very functional by design?
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2019-04-05T06:18:06Z pjb: aeth: safety is not idiomatic of the programming language: the C standard allows run-time checks just like CL.  It's idiotic of programmers of the specific language to disable it.
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2019-04-05T11:28:33Z jcowan: "Using safety checks only for debugging is like wearing life jackets when your ship is in port, then discarding them when on the high seas.
2019-04-05T11:28:35Z jcowan: "
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2019-04-05T11:36:54Z jcowan: ecraven: I don't see any problem with using CLOS instances immutably, thanks to make-instance (which can and should be wrapped).  Indeed, CLOS offers the ability to directly make slots read-only, which is not available in define-record-type, although it is possible to export only the slot readers and not the writers, which I routinely do.
2019-04-05T11:38:16Z ecraven: indeed, but is that how they are usually used in actual CL projects?
2019-04-05T11:39:21Z jcowan: Henry Baker points out that CL lacks immutable arrays (and so does Scheme), which is a serious problem for distributed programming.
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2019-04-05T12:57:37Z Riastradh: aeth: `-O3 removes checks that people put in their code' is not really an accurate characterization.
2019-04-05T12:58:14Z ecraven: jcowan: why is that a problem? can't you just not mutate? or is this about write barriers that the compiler automatically creates?
2019-04-05T13:00:35Z jcowan: Riastradh: It's incomplete, certainly, but it can happen (and even without -O3) if the program contains UB.
2019-04-05T13:02:04Z jcowan: ecraven: When writing for yourself, yes.   But when programming in the large the safe assumption is "If a data structure allows mutation, some idiot (a cow orker or yourself in a later incarnation) will mutate it, thus messing up whatever invariants you are depending on."
2019-04-05T13:02:11Z Riastradh: aeth: If you're criticizing the unlimited consequences of undefined behaviour, that's one thing, but neither -O3 nor -Oanythingelse will simply remove checks in a program that the compiler can't prove are unreachable or redundant.
2019-04-05T13:03:55Z jcowan: The incident I was mentioning earlier was one in which a program checks a pointer for nullity *after* dereferencing it.  Of course that's a Bad Idea but gcc will take the dereference as proof that the pointer is non-null and will silently remove the check.
2019-04-05T13:04:50Z ecraven: wow, that doesn't seem to be a sound optimisation :-/
2019-04-05T13:05:04Z Riastradh: jcowan: Yes.  I'm not saying that the event aeth described doesn't happen, just that the way it was characterized is not accurate.
2019-04-05T13:05:17Z Riastradh: The compiler does not simply say `hmm, this looks like a check, I think I'll remove it because it'll go faster this way'.
2019-04-05T13:05:31Z jcowan: Riastradh: True.
2019-04-05T13:05:46Z Riastradh: The compiler says `hmm, I can _prove_ this check is redundant in all paths that lead to it; therefore I'll remove it'.
2019-04-05T13:05:48Z jcowan: (BTW, how do you pronounce "Riastradh"?  Irishly or otherwise?)
2019-04-05T13:06:15Z pjb: jcowan: while CL doesn't provide an immutable array data type, it's trivial to provide one.
2019-04-05T13:06:55Z jcowan: pjb: It involves an annoying amount of delegation, though.
2019-04-05T13:08:52Z jcowan: ecraven: The optimization is completely sound.  The compiler sees that there are two paths to compile: the pointer is non-null (in which case the compiler must dereference it but the check is redundant), or the pointer is null (in which case the compiler has no obligations whatever).  So since the simplest thing to do when you are not obliged to do anything is to do nothing, that's what gcc does.
2019-04-05T13:09:25Z ecraven: it would seem prudent to at least *warn* the programmer that the check is redundant
2019-04-05T13:09:29Z ecraven: like with dead code
2019-04-05T13:10:35Z pjb: jcowan: Indeed.  https://pastebin.com/XYMt4Q6N
2019-04-05T13:10:51Z pjb: jcowan: one would want a CL defined with more generic functions.
2019-04-05T13:11:05Z jcowan: Just so.
2019-04-05T13:11:44Z jcowan: ecraven: Helpful certainly, but C compilers aren't about being helpful, they are about sacrificing everything to compile speed except execution speed.
2019-04-05T13:13:56Z jcowan: Historically lint(1) helped with this, but C linters are hard to write and harder to maintain.  IDEs do some of the work now, but they too have to do a fast, sloppy job or they will be abandoned by ADHD programmers with overdeveloped fast-twitch reflexes.
2019-04-05T13:14:11Z Riastradh: jcowan: Well...  I got it from a Scots-Gaelic dictionary decades ago, but its pronunciation guide left a bit to be desired; I took it to mean /riəst'rə/, but I haven't revisited that in a long time with any serious phonology reference.
2019-04-05T13:14:16Z Riastradh: er
2019-04-05T13:14:21Z Riastradh: /ri'əstrə/
2019-04-05T13:16:17Z ggole: Exploiting UB doesn't necessarily removing anything that resembles a check
2019-04-05T13:16:20Z jcowan: Definitely stressed on the first syllable.
2019-04-05T13:16:48Z Riastradh: (but I usually anglicize it to /ɺi'əstɺə/ in conversation)
2019-04-05T13:17:19Z jcowan: (The IPA stress marks are written before, not after, the stressed syllable.)
2019-04-05T13:17:34Z ggole: eg, x + K < y + K => x < y is a valid optimisation in C, but the compiler doesn't make the transformation because it knows that UB (overflow) is happening, but because it is allowed to assume that it isn't
2019-04-05T13:18:25Z ggole: I don't see anything to warn about there
2019-04-05T13:21:53Z Riastradh: jcowan: Well, in my initial reading of that Scots-Gaelic dictionary so many years ago, I read it as two syllables rather than a diphthong with stress on the second syllable (not the third syllable as I wrote initially).  Consultation of the Wikipedia article on Scots-Gaelic phonology suggests that it is rather a diphthong, so I guess maybe /r'iəstrə/ is a better transcription.
2019-04-05T13:22:09Z Riastradh: lemme commacize that better
2019-04-05T13:22:20Z Riastradh: `I read it as two syllables, rather than a diphthong, with stress on the second syllable'
2019-04-05T13:22:51Z Riastradh: ecraven: Hey, you speak the language, don't you?  Am I getting the phonology anywhere near accurate?
2019-04-05T13:23:14Z ecraven: aye ;)
2019-04-05T13:23:28Z jcowan: Second-syllable stress is almost unheard of in Irish/Scottish Gaelic/Manx.  Initial stress is normal, though in some varieties long vowels (not present here) can mess with that.
2019-04-05T13:23:55Z ecraven: wait, lemme check up on my IPA a bit
2019-04-05T13:24:05Z jcowan: so /'riəstrə/
2019-04-05T13:24:31Z Riastradh: ...errr, right.
2019-04-05T13:25:51Z ecraven: this has the irish pronunciation https://forvo.com/word/r%C3%ADastrad/
2019-04-05T13:26:00Z Riastradh: All that said, if you pronounce it /ɺiəst'ɺaːd/ as some people do, I will still answer to it.
2019-04-05T13:26:05Z ecraven: the end is different in scottish gaelic, it's not a d
2019-04-05T13:26:41Z ecraven:  /'ri:əstrə/ would be my guess ;)
2019-04-05T13:26:53Z ecraven: not a native (or even very good) speaker :-/
2019-04-05T13:27:01Z Riastradh: ecraven: Long vowel there, not a diphthong?
2019-04-05T13:27:24Z ecraven: scottish gaelic has a lot of written vowels that are only there to clarify the pronunciation of the surrounding consonants
2019-04-05T13:27:42Z Riastradh: Wikipedia sez that <ia> between a slender consonant (<r>) and a broad consonant (s) makes for the diphthong /iə/.
2019-04-05T13:27:43Z ecraven: in this case, I'd guess the a is very weak, it mainly serves to clarify the pronunciation of the following -st-
2019-04-05T13:28:08Z ecraven: well, the i is definitely stronger than the ə
2019-04-05T13:28:26Z ecraven: might be a short i, you are right
2019-04-05T13:28:38Z ecraven: however, the i is the only "clear" vowel in that word
2019-04-05T13:28:46Z ecraven: all the others are schwas
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2019-04-05T13:29:46Z Riastradh: Right.  So, it looks like I mostly got it right all those years ago (the dictionary I consulted did not use IPA!), except for the details of the <ia> vowel.
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2019-04-05T13:30:40Z ecraven: also keep in mind that pronunciation of scottish gaelic varies quite a lot regionally, so it's harder to say what is *correct*
2019-04-05T13:30:53Z Riastradh: What is this, English!
2019-04-05T13:31:08Z ecraven: I've recently studied some norwegian, there are some very interesting dialects there ;)
2019-04-05T13:31:27Z ecraven: in fact, I've come to realize that it seems *every* language has mutually (almost) unintelligible dialects ;)
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2019-04-05T13:33:58Z Riastradh: ecraven: Anyway, re deletion of checks: what you really want to object to is not the optimization -- which is sound: it is clearly justified by the language's defined semantics -- but to the language's semantics.  For example, perhaps you would like null pointers to be limited to nullable types, and require an error to be reported if they are dereferenced.
2019-04-05T13:35:06Z Riastradh: ggole: Don't be so sure compilers don't do that transformation.  Certainly GCC and I think also Clang will draw inferences from the undefinedness of signed integer overflow.
2019-04-05T13:35:20Z ecraven: maybe I just don't know enough about modern compilers, but I'd like to get *notices* about things like that, so I can remove the check from the source code, if it actually isn't necessary
2019-04-05T13:35:56Z Riastradh: Often such things come out of, e.g., a macro, or an inline function, so it's not worthwhile to warn about all of them.
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2019-04-05T13:37:05Z Riastradh: ggole: This is why the -fwrapv option exists: it _changes_ the semantics of signed integer overflow to be two's-complement rather than undefined.
2019-04-05T13:37:22Z Riastradh: (Unsigned overflow, of course, is always defined.)
2019-04-05T13:37:24Z ggole: C compilers *do* perform that transformation (on signed numbers)
2019-04-05T13:37:45Z ggole: The point is that they aren't doing it by looking for UB and then performing the translation if they see it.
2019-04-05T13:38:02Z Riastradh: Oh, I misread your earlier message.  You were saying `it does the transformation, not for reason X but for reason Y', not `it doesn't do the transformation'.
2019-04-05T13:38:26Z ggole: Yes, it was meant as a reply to ecraven saying "it would be nice if they put out a warning"
2019-04-05T13:39:43Z ggole: And yes, wrapv is a useful thing to have if you are worried about possible bad outcomes
2019-04-05T13:46:39Z Riastradh: aeth: So anyway, -O3 doesn't mean the C compiler will remove, e.g., user input validation of data read from a socket, or tag checks in a Scheme implementation.  What you really meant to characterize, I think, is the _premises_ in the language semantics of undefined behaviour, under which a C compiler can (correctly!) prove code unreachable, including, e.g., a null pointer check after dereferencing the
2019-04-05T13:46:45Z Riastradh: pointer.
2019-04-05T13:46:59Z jcowan: AFAIK it has never been pronounced /d/ (at least not since Primitive Irish, the last version of the language any outsider could understand); it was /ð/ in the original Middle Irish context, and either /ɣ/ or more usually nothing at all today.  (Note that "Irish" in all contexts before about 1200 implicitly includes Scottish Gaelic and Manx, which did not have a clear separation until the 19C.)
2019-04-05T13:47:33Z jcowan: ecraven: Not Icelandic, for obvs reasons
2019-04-05T13:47:59Z Riastradh: jcowan: Well it has often been pronounced /d/ in my presence!
2019-04-05T13:48:21Z ecraven: jcowan: yea, I don't know many languages with a very small number of speakers
2019-04-05T13:48:24Z jcowan: Yes, well, the English are very ignorant, and the Middle Irish _spelling_ was indeed with d
2019-04-05T13:50:11Z Riastradh: jcowan: On the contrary, these were mostly Americans, not English.
2019-04-05T13:50:42Z jcowan: "the English" = anyone non-Celtic, as in Amish country = anyone non-Amish
2019-04-05T13:51:02Z jcowan: In New Mexico, African Americans are Anglos.
2019-04-05T13:53:52Z jcowan: There was some discussion about the term "Primitive Irish" and whether it was insulting (consensus: no), and someone suggested the xkcd-tinged terms “Overwhelmingly Old Irish”, “Oppressively Archaic Irish”, “Mind-Numbingly Antiquated Irish”, “Despair Irish” for progressively earlier stages.
2019-04-05T13:54:42Z Riastradh: Inchoate Primordial Irish?
2019-04-05T13:54:47Z jcowan chuckles.
2019-04-05T13:54:51Z jcowan: To which I replied:
2019-04-05T13:54:58Z jcowan: "Except that, all things considered, it’s actually Primitive Irish that is a reasonable Indo-European language, whereas it’s Old Irish and its descendants, with their initial consonant mutations, positively Caucasian number of consonant phonemes, overwhelming vowel reductions, over-the-top orthography (especially before and after the dot above), and “‘Tis an ease to the gate they to be married” syntax and idioms, that
2019-04-05T13:54:58Z jcowan: are oppressive, mind-numbing, and productive of despair."
2019-04-05T13:55:51Z ecraven: ah, I love ḃ and friends!
2019-04-05T13:56:01Z jcowan too
2019-04-05T13:56:03Z ecraven: I've tried to write scottish gaelic that way, but everyone was rather offended ;D
2019-04-05T13:56:16Z jcowan: In the Cyrillic orthography for Irish that I helped develop it was used extensively.
2019-04-05T13:57:15Z ecraven: never heard of that ;) who was using that?
2019-04-05T13:59:20Z jcowan: Nobody, it's a toy project. My name would be Ё́г̇ан мак Ё́г̇ань.
2019-04-05T13:59:34Z jcowan: (the dot should be on the gamma, of course)
2019-04-05T14:01:28Z jcowan: Then there's Vladimir Léinín ("little shirt"), who spoke English with a Dublin or specifically Rathmines accent.
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2019-04-05T14:11:19Z pjb: jcowan: why the trema and accent on the E? and why the dot on the g?
2019-04-05T14:11:36Z ecraven: interesting, my emacs does not composite the acute and dot correctly
2019-04-05T14:11:48Z pjb: How should it show?
2019-04-05T14:12:27Z pjb: But do you really need such alterations?
2019-04-05T14:13:07Z ecraven: the E with two dots is russian "yo"
2019-04-05T14:13:20Z ecraven: yoghan mak yoghan'
2019-04-05T14:13:31Z pjb: but why the accent?
2019-04-05T14:13:40Z jcowan: e-trema is Russian for /jo/, the acute (which should be on top) for vowel length, thus Eóghan.  In Co. Mayo, where my people come from, this is often used as an equivalent of John, and Cowan is for Mac Eóghain, "son of John" though in fact it is my grandfather who was John
2019-04-05T14:14:10Z jcowan: the John of my father's generation died young.
2019-04-05T14:14:24Z pjb: Ok, so it's consistent. GNU emacs on macOS displays the character correctly.
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2019-04-05T14:15:02Z pjb: jcowan: so do you find the cyrillic alphabet more natural for Irish?  Was it used in antique Irish?
2019-04-05T14:15:07Z ecraven: might be a problem with my font, I use terminus as a bdf font, it *should* work correctly.. some day, I'll convert it to an otf font
2019-04-05T14:15:28Z jcowan: pjb: yes and no respectively.
2019-04-05T14:15:53Z pjb: It is based on the Early Cyrillic alphabet developed during the 9th century AD at the Preslav Literary School in the First Bulgarian Empire.
2019-04-05T14:15:59Z jcowan: In Cyrillic it's the *following* vowel only that indicates that the consonant is palatalized, whereas in Irish *both* vowels are used to indicate it, hence the proliferation of unpronounced vowels.
2019-04-05T14:16:18Z pjb: Perhaps somebody went from Hungary to Ireland in the 9th centunry?
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2019-04-05T14:35:08Z ecraven: does any scheme have a native http/2 server?
2019-04-05T14:35:31Z ecraven: so many things that would be nice to have in r7rs-extra-large!
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2019-04-05T14:52:39Z jcowan: until we have a standard and widely implemented network interface (or Posix in general), I suspect such things are futile
2019-04-05T14:52:58Z jcowan: I'm taking my third or fourth pass at the Posix problem
2019-04-05T14:53:19Z jcowan: which is how to do enough without doing too much.
2019-04-05T14:53:46Z jcowan: Posix proper has 1118 APIs, and that's simply far too much.
2019-04-05T14:54:46Z jcowan: By the same token, Linux has 501 system calls
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2019-04-05T15:09:36Z francis49: hello
2019-04-05T15:10:37Z francis49: i search info about chez scheme graphics libraries. someone can help?
2019-04-05T15:14:42Z wasamasa: there are any?
2019-04-05T15:16:16Z andreycizov quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2019-04-05T15:16:58Z pjb: gimp?
2019-04-05T15:20:47Z alyptik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2019-04-05T15:21:03Z francis49: wasamasa, yes. i saw the site thunderchez
2019-04-05T15:21:25Z francis49: this https://pizzahack.eu/fossil/thunderchez/home
2019-04-05T15:22:09Z francis49: but i dont know what libraries are
2019-04-05T15:23:03Z francis49: i asked just to see id there is someone better informed
2019-04-05T15:23:08Z francis49: if
2019-04-05T15:24:53Z wasamasa: doubtful
2019-04-05T15:26:55Z francis49: wasamasa, do you use chez scheme?
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2019-04-05T15:40:55Z francis49: bye all
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2019-04-05T15:52:23Z ecraven: hm.. so many things lead back to requiring a proper interface for parsing and generating binary data :-/
2019-04-05T15:52:46Z ecraven: at least utf8
2019-04-05T15:52:55Z ecraven: utf8->string takes start and end parameters ;) nicely done!
2019-04-05T15:53:21Z ecraven: jcowan: I've pondered working on a Scheme compiler that only uses system calls, no libc ;)
2019-04-05T15:54:36Z ecraven: re binary parsing, I'm guessing it'd be best to get the data as one bytevector, then read from that by indexing, instead of splitting that up into separate smaller bytevectors (as we don't have indirect bytevectors :-/)
2019-04-05T15:55:34Z jcowan: The (rnrs bytevectors) library, now aka (scheme bytevector), is intended for that.
2019-04-05T15:57:36Z ecraven: unless I'm mistaken, it is very basic. I want something that lets me describe a binary object, and that can automatically generate a reader / writer for it
2019-04-05T15:58:56Z ecraven: for example, an x11 library I wrote uses something like http://ix.io/1FnY to generate a reader/writer
2019-04-05T15:59:04Z ecraven: but it's very ad-hoc and specific to x11
2019-04-05T15:59:53Z wasamasa: Go does such a thing
2019-04-05T16:00:10Z ecraven: I still like erlang binary syntax
2019-04-05T16:00:18Z wasamasa: cgo ruins the fun though
2019-04-05T16:00:21Z ecraven: wasamasa: interesting, I don't think I found that yet, I'll go and look at that
2019-04-05T16:00:29Z wasamasa: that is, the no libc thing
2019-04-05T16:00:48Z ecraven: ah, you mean the no-libc thing, not the binary-io thing
2019-04-05T16:00:56Z wasamasa: if you don't have their resources, don't bother really
2019-04-05T16:01:46Z wasamasa: you'll just learn that there's no clean separation of syscalls, libc and posix
2019-04-05T16:02:22Z ecraven: ah well, the alternative is just go bare metal :D like mezzano
2019-04-05T16:02:40Z wasamasa: but who knows, maybe you'll come up with a scheme2go compiler
2019-04-05T16:02:40Z Riastradh: ecraven: `only uses system calls, no libc' is asking for a maintenance nightmare.
2019-04-05T16:02:44Z jcowan: In that case TaylanUB's struct library is probably what you want
2019-04-05T16:02:56Z jcowan: https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-bytestructures
2019-04-05T16:03:24Z ecraven: I've looked at that before, not quite the API I like :-/
2019-04-05T16:03:30Z jcowan: This will be in a future ballot.
2019-04-05T16:03:46Z jcowan: Well, write a competing SRFI then, perhaps leveraging the R6RS API!
2019-04-05T16:03:59Z ecraven: yea, I've been thinking about that for a long time ;)
2019-04-05T16:04:07Z ecraven: but I don't feel qualified.. yet
2019-04-05T16:04:44Z ecraven: also, I really liked that SchemeXerox paper, a lot to think about there! it seems eulisp / vlisp had something similar
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2019-04-05T16:07:18Z jcowan: "Begin at the beginning, go on till you come to the end, and then stop."  SRFIs are developed draft by draft, and often early drafts are fairly sketchy.
2019-04-05T16:07:51Z Riastradh: ...sometimes late drats are pretty sketchy too...
2019-04-05T16:09:40Z ecraven: is there an actual need for non-octet binary data?
2019-04-05T16:09:49Z ecraven: as in actual binary bit streams?
2019-04-05T16:10:00Z jcowan: There are a few wire protocols like that.
2019-04-05T16:10:30Z rain1: binary bit stream can be built from binary byte based ports though
2019-04-05T16:10:41Z rain1: binary streams are useful for compression algorithms
2019-04-05T16:11:12Z jcowan: Which reminds me:  I've got a pre-pre-SRFI called bvectors which can be seen as either bit or boolean vectors.  But it's huge, with 61 operations, no real model for implementations, and if it's to be implemented using actual bits in bytevectors, it's going to have to be written completely from scratch, which I try to avoid.
2019-04-05T16:11:43Z rain1: i think the srfis should be done based on real code
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2019-04-05T16:11:55Z ecraven: most of the ones I've met deal in octets.. but yea, compression especially is often bit-based
2019-04-05T16:12:12Z jcowan: rain1: Yes, which is why it's still "pre-pre-".
2019-04-05T16:13:05Z jcowan: But it would be much easier to do with one byte per bit/bool.  That's what Java and C# do, and of course it doesn't prevent another implementation based on machine-level bits.  Does anyone recoil in horror at the idea?
2019-04-05T16:13:54Z jcowan: (That way a bit field is just a sequence of bytes instead of a "Z-shaped object" consisting of low-order bits of at most one byte, a number of full bytes, possibly zero, and high-order bits of at most one byte.
2019-04-05T16:14:03Z ecraven: jcowan: well, I'd say it's ok to have the default implementation be "inefficient", as long as the API doesn't preclude a better implementation
2019-04-05T16:15:13Z jcowan: Works for me.
2019-04-05T16:16:38Z jcowan: Of course it's also possible to be low on space, high on time, by just implementing ref and set! as bit-twiddling operators and then doing all the rest on top of them and ignoring the inefficiencies of repeated memory access to adjacent bits (which indeed the cache might well eliminate).
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2019-04-05T16:19:05Z ecraven: another ad-hoc thing I wrote for an elf reader/writer: http://ix.io/1Fo7
2019-04-05T16:19:35Z ecraven: ah, too much pasted.. towards the end, the define-binary-structure stuff
2019-04-05T16:20:05Z rain1: hey cool !
2019-04-05T16:20:09Z rain1: what did you make elf tools for?
2019-04-05T16:20:15Z ecraven: a compiler ;)
2019-04-05T16:20:29Z ecraven: but they aren't useful for anything yet
2019-04-05T16:20:57Z ecraven: so, should the accessors parse a bytevector into a record, or should they directly access (and convert) the data from the bytevector?
2019-04-05T16:21:05Z ecraven: probably the latter, as that prevents consing, I'd imagine
2019-04-05T16:21:13Z jcowan: Definitely the latter.
2019-04-05T16:21:17Z ecraven: I really want a way to do zero-copy binary data interfacing
2019-04-05T16:21:41Z ecraven: (ignoring the fact how to get a zero-copy bytevector *into* Scheme in the first place...)
2019-04-05T16:21:44Z jcowan: Pretty tough as long as you are stuck with a conventional kernel.
2019-04-05T16:22:21Z ecraven: well, at least once I get the bytevector into Scheme, I'd like to destructure it without copying (and subsetting) it again many many times
2019-04-05T16:22:40Z jcowan: Ah, okay.  Well, bytestructures almost do that except for non-immediate Scheme data types (particularly floats and 64-bit ints)
2019-04-05T16:23:03Z jcowan: and even they are copied only once
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2019-04-05T16:24:42Z ecraven: jcowan: assuming a 64 bit nan-boxing implementation floats would be immediates..
2019-04-05T16:24:57Z ecraven: and 64 bit ints would need to be converted to bignums
2019-04-05T16:25:07Z jcowan: True
2019-04-05T16:25:19Z ecraven: unless of course your compiler is smart enough to typecheck and unbox them
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2019-04-05T16:28:38Z ecraven: does everyone dislike macros introducing new names that are joined together based on the structure name and the field name? like (define-structure foo (bar baaz)) -> foo-bar and foo-baaz?
2019-04-05T16:30:33Z amz3: yes
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2019-04-05T16:32:53Z ggole: Clearly the names should be (foo bar) and (foo baaz)
2019-04-05T16:36:08Z ecraven: is there a better word than "unparse" for the opposite of parsing?
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2019-04-05T16:41:03Z amz3: serialize
2019-04-05T16:41:15Z ecraven: thanks
2019-04-05T16:51:49Z Riastradh: encode?
2019-04-05T16:53:10Z rain1: I like these macros
2019-04-05T16:53:18Z rain1: but i think we need support for this in some way in the module systems
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2019-04-05T17:12:55Z ecraven: maybe binary-structure->bytevector and bytevector->binary-structure are best
2019-04-05T17:13:00Z ecraven: a bit verbose though
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2019-04-05T17:34:04Z ecraven: any opinions on (foo-bar x) vs. (foo-ref x 'bar)?
2019-04-05T17:38:30Z rain1: foo-bar
2019-04-05T17:38:47Z rain1: foo-ref has an extra indirection
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2019-04-05T17:44:22Z ecraven: yes, but it introduces far fewer new names :-)
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2019-04-05T17:45:10Z rain1: yes too many names is a problem if we cannot export them all in one go with the module system
2019-04-05T17:45:21Z rain1: it's useful to have some way to produce a list of symbols in a module export list
2019-04-05T17:46:53Z ecraven: also things like debuggers are simpler if you can pass the thing you want to reference in as a symbol, instead of having to somehow find a list of functions to use (and not having a name attached that you can show)
2019-04-05T17:47:24Z ecraven: I'll just provide def-bin-io, def-bin-io*, def-bin-io+ and def-bin-io-*+ which all define various combinations :P
2019-04-05T17:48:04Z rain1: that might be overkill!
2019-04-05T17:48:18Z rain1: if you prefer foo-ref it'd be better to just use that only
2019-04-05T17:48:27Z Riastradh: ... x.bar ... *hide*
2019-04-05T17:50:14Z gwatt: The problem with (foo-ref foo <<slot>>) is that you either have to export <<slot>> - which is even less unique than foo-<<slot>> - or run the risk of fumble-fingering <<slot>> and having stupid runtime errors
2019-04-05T17:55:48Z pjb: ecraven: (dolist (field '(bar baz quux)) (foo-ref x field))  vs. (dolist (getter (list foo-bar foo-baz foo-quux)) (getter x))
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2019-04-05T17:56:15Z pjb: ecraven: both API have advantages.
2019-04-05T17:56:36Z gwatt: Though I am also on the side of letting define-record-type create new identifiers rather than having to pass all the accessor/mutator names
2019-04-05T17:56:38Z pjb: foo-ref can be extended at run-time.
2019-04-05T17:56:46Z pjb: "data-driven"
2019-04-05T17:57:50Z francis49: hello
2019-04-05T17:58:33Z francis49: someone hear about a drracket plugin named "chez-runner"?
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2019-04-05T18:12:15Z jcowan: I always find encode and decode confusing as terminology: which is which?
2019-04-05T18:13:41Z jcowan: I always use define-record-type rather than a shortcut, which gives me control of what the accessors and mutators are called.  I often use the recordname-fieldname convention, but I often don't, especially when the names aren't being exported.
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2019-04-05T18:20:47Z aeth: pjb, Riastradh: What I meant is that in C the idiomatic thing is to be explicit and essentially be your own safety. And modern (past 10 years?) optimizing compilers are bad because they fight these idioms by optimizing them away.
2019-04-05T18:22:08Z aeth: I think the idea is that sometimes you know you can't go out of bounds but the compiler doesn't know that. In CL, you can actually locally turn off safety for that. In this sort of C, you simply remove the usual defensive check.
2019-04-05T18:22:39Z aeth: Not sure if Scheme has a solution. It's a bit of an edge case.
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2019-04-05T18:27:28Z aeth: Riastradh: jcowan gave one of the classic examples. The other is checking for overflow. That can probably be fixed by moving the check forward, though
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2019-04-05T18:31:54Z aeth: jcowan: Wouldn't a bvector just be a bitvector wrapped in stuff like (= foo 1) on access? Setting would be a bit trickier...
2019-04-05T18:33:04Z jcowan: The idea is that you can set an element to any of the four values, but what you get back depends on whether you use bvector-ref/bit or bvector-ref/bool.
2019-04-05T18:33:04Z ecraven: actually, kaitai struct is most like what I have in mind
2019-04-05T18:34:24Z jcowan: yaml, ugh
2019-04-05T18:34:46Z ecraven: yea, I'm not saying the syntax is nice, but it is quite powerful (but only supports *reading*, I think)
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2019-04-05T21:26:10Z str1ngs: I added rudimentary command arguments along with command history completion to nomad. https://i.imgur.com/Sf7iAih.png
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2019-04-05T21:33:57Z str1ngs: opps wrong channel
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2019-04-06T03:55:01Z johnjay: what's a relatively simple part of the racket codebase to study?
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2019-04-06T06:53:33Z ecraven: wasamasa: did you ever touch bgfx or nanovg in your graphics adventures with chicken?
2019-04-06T06:54:02Z ecraven: ah, I see you did with nanovg! nice
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2019-04-06T08:58:18Z wasamasa: ecraven: I didn't, lol
2019-04-06T08:58:24Z wasamasa: ecraven: you must be confusing me with someone else
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2019-04-06T10:52:14Z rain1: (foo . bar . baz) => (bar foo baz)
2019-04-06T10:52:16Z rain1: in racket
2019-04-06T10:52:18Z rain1: ugly
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2019-04-06T11:31:42Z pjb: rain1: in AIM-8 LISP (before the first implementation), (FOO , BAR , BAZ) was equivalent to (|FOO | | BAR | | BAZ|) in CL..
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2019-04-06T11:31:58Z pjb: rain1: don't worry, racket is just regressing to the womb!
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2019-04-06T12:16:44Z amz3: what's up #scheme?
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2019-04-06T12:39:26Z rain1: hey amz
2019-04-06T12:39:49Z rain1: I had been thinking about making a simple block data store inside a file or something
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2019-04-06T14:28:21Z ecraven: that way lies forth :P
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2019-04-06T21:18:36Z johnjay: is there a good document about how to do error/exception handling in scheme?
2019-04-06T21:18:50Z johnjay: i was skimming hte racket docs and didn't see anything
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2019-04-07T09:49:45Z wasamasa: johnjay: there's only basic error handling in the r7rs standard, so you'll have to look at how your implementation does it
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2019-04-07T15:12:15Z ecraven: wasamasa: sorry, I found some code that I thought was by you, but in fact the chicken nanovg egg is by dleslie, it seems
2019-04-07T15:12:35Z ecraven: did you ever play around with nanovg? seems like a nice library to base a purely vector game on, for example
2019-04-07T15:12:38Z ecraven: resolution independet!
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2019-04-08T05:44:29Z brainacid0: Hello. Im new to programming in a way. I have played with Linux for 22 yrs. Im 34. Im studying 2HtDP and enjoying it a lot. I have run into some confusions and I hope I can chat with someone. Thanks ;)
2019-04-08T05:49:10Z johnjay: brainacid0: there are many people in here to chat with
2019-04-08T05:49:27Z brainacid0: Im glad
2019-04-08T05:49:30Z johnjay: i can't guarantee you'll get answers though
2019-04-08T05:49:58Z brainacid0: of course. nothing is guaranteed. but at least i get some interactions
2019-04-08T05:50:12Z brainacid0: ;)
2019-04-08T05:51:38Z pjb: So, just ask your question.
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2019-04-08T05:52:54Z johnjay: well then
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2019-04-08T05:53:39Z brainacid0: too much lag had to change net
2019-04-08T05:53:54Z brainacid0: well im confused in making functions
2019-04-08T05:54:13Z brainacid0: I mean refactoring, it feels like im trying to do it too much
2019-04-08T05:54:28Z pjb: keep the functions small and single-minded.
2019-04-08T05:55:37Z brainacid0: heres my example
2019-04-08T05:55:47Z brainacid0: https://bpaste.net/show/733093d5c6c0
2019-04-08T05:57:09Z brainacid0: https://bpaste.net/show/b607d058c2d3   the original from the book
2019-04-08T05:57:17Z pjb: C-input does two things.
2019-04-08T05:57:30Z brainacid0: I made that from the original. I refactored it
2019-04-08T05:57:41Z pjb: You should split it into a function to convert to celcius (it's already done, it's C), and a function that reads input from file.
2019-04-08T05:58:01Z brainacid0: yes
2019-04-08T05:58:14Z pjb: So you would write: (define (convert-temp in out) (save-to out (C (load-from in))))
2019-04-08T05:58:39Z pjb: perhaps naming C fahrenheit-to-celcius would be clearer.
2019-04-08T05:59:00Z brainacid0: so improve naming convention
2019-04-08T05:59:39Z brainacid0: but what Im getting at is from the original to my refactoring... did i refactor too much or am I simplifying proper.
2019-04-08T05:59:41Z pjb: for functions that convert, you have two choice of naming convention: from->to  (or from-to),   or to<-from.
2019-04-08T05:59:56Z pjb: The later can be easier to read (a<-b (b<-c (c<-d d))) -> a
2019-04-08T06:00:14Z pjb: vs. (b->a (c->b (d->c d))) -> a
2019-04-08T06:01:12Z pjb: Well for such a simple function, the original could be ok.  But usually things are more complex, and you'd be justified to write separate functions to abstract loading and saving data.
2019-04-08T06:01:26Z brainacid0: yes i noticed that its read left to right but evaluated from inside out
2019-04-08T06:01:30Z pjb: You could have more complex file formats, to compute pathnames, etc.
2019-04-08T06:01:44Z brainacid0: yes i imagine
2019-04-08T06:01:55Z pjb: scheme tends to use from-to  (number->string), so you may want to stay consistent with that…
2019-04-08T06:04:59Z aeth: there may be macros available that compose functions in the "correct" left to right order
2019-04-08T06:05:15Z aeth: i.e. (foo d->c c->b b->a d)
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2019-04-08T06:07:24Z brainacid0: didnt get any msgs sorry, terrible lag
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2019-04-08T09:12:56Z moores: Hi there! I'm confused by applying 'define' to three arguments, i.e. (define (f x) 0 1). If I apply f to anything it seems to evaluates to 1. Does it mean the 0 is inaccessible? What is the point of an expression in this position?
2019-04-08T09:14:31Z rain1: it's shorthand for (define (f x) (begin 0 1))
2019-04-08T09:14:47Z rain1: (begin 0 1) will evaluate 0 and then evaluate 1 and return that
2019-04-08T09:14:57Z rain1: evaluating a constant doesn't have any effect though
2019-04-08T09:15:16Z rain1: there's no point in having the 0 there
2019-04-08T09:20:58Z moores: rain1: Cool, thanks. But evaluation a lambda expression somehow has an effect?
2019-04-08T09:22:52Z rain1: examples that have effoct could be  (define (f x) (begin (print 0) 1)) or (define (f x) (begin (set! x 0) x))
2019-04-08T09:23:57Z moores: Okey, only impure functions?
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2019-04-08T09:42:00Z plugd: You could also have a nested define: (define (f x) (define (g y) (+ x y)) (g x))
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2019-04-08T09:44:04Z plugd: (Although internal defines are often transformed to letrecs.)
2019-04-08T09:44:43Z pjb: (define (f x) 0 1) == (define f (lambda (x) 0 1)) == (define f (lambda (x) (begin 0 1)))
2019-04-08T09:45:05Z pjb: evaluating a lambda expression such as (lambda (x) (begin 0 1)) has no visible side effect: it just creates a new closure.
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2019-04-08T10:02:12Z moores: This is useful to me. Thank you, plugd and pjb. I'll have to play around with 'begin' some more.
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2019-04-08T10:29:29Z aeth: moores: Most forms have an implicit begin, and you only need to use it in a few places, like (if (foo) (begin 0 1) (begin 1 0))
2019-04-08T10:29:52Z aeth: And, yes, it's mostly used for side effects, especially (in simple beginner code) display (for printing)
2019-04-08T10:30:48Z aeth: (if #t (begin (display "Hello") 1) (begin (display "World") 0))
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2019-04-08T10:42:29Z moores: aeth: Pretty neat. This 'mostly' in "mostly used for side effects" seems to open an interesting door, though.
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2019-04-08T14:06:29Z ecraven: hm.. (vector-ref sx (- i 1)) is definitely much worse than sx[i-1] :-/
2019-04-08T14:06:49Z ecraven: just playing around with nanovg, chez's ffi performance is really nice ;)
2019-04-08T14:06:58Z ecraven: but all the imperative maths seems non-optimal in Scheme
2019-04-08T14:07:08Z wasamasa: there's a SRFI providing an infix reader macro
2019-04-08T14:07:19Z ecraven: yea, I won't go there..
2019-04-08T14:07:24Z wasamasa: why not?
2019-04-08T14:07:31Z ecraven: just saying better abstractions would be nice, that just make me not *need* to write that
2019-04-08T14:07:36Z wasamasa: ag
2019-04-08T14:07:38Z wasamasa: *ah
2019-04-08T14:08:00Z ecraven: you've played around a lot with imperative ui frameworks, any insights in how to better map their APIs to Scheme?
2019-04-08T14:08:05Z LeoNerd: (pred i)  maybe?
2019-04-08T14:08:21Z ecraven: LeoNerd: if anything, I'd use (-1+ i)
2019-04-08T14:08:35Z ecraven: thought not all Schemes support that as a function name, I think
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2019-04-08T14:10:50Z wasamasa: not really
2019-04-08T14:10:59Z wasamasa: the furthest I got was in my ports of nuklear examples
2019-04-08T14:11:17Z wasamasa: basically, have lots of variables/lists/vectors, then set them to a new value or list thereof
2019-04-08T14:11:35Z wasamasa: something like clojure's persistent maps and functions to easily manipulate them would help
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2019-04-08T14:12:09Z ecraven: what about hiding the usual context object in a parameter? not sure whether you ever need *multiple* contexts?
2019-04-08T14:12:23Z ecraven: I'll check those out, thanks
2019-04-08T14:12:26Z wasamasa: you could, but I prefer less magic really
2019-04-08T14:12:46Z ecraven: yea, but having vg be the first parameter of *every* functions gets boring fast :-/
2019-04-08T14:12:52Z ecraven: (that's what the nanovg demo calls the context)
2019-04-08T14:12:53Z wasamasa: it's fine in small doses, like with my high-level API for inotify
2019-04-08T14:13:22Z wasamasa: clojure's doto macro helps if all calls do that, but it's really not designed for this
2019-04-08T14:13:43Z wasamasa: scala has a funny approach for this
2019-04-08T14:14:05Z wasamasa: you can declare a hole with a certain type and if it's not filled, you get a compiler error
2019-04-08T14:14:15Z wasamasa: unfortunately debugging these errors is hard
2019-04-08T14:14:32Z ecraven: so you can sa5y
2019-04-08T14:14:32Z wasamasa: particularly if you have extra indirection, like when composing multiple APIs using the same trick
2019-04-08T14:14:48Z ecraven: so you can say: all functions that are missing an object of type foo just take this one, in this scope?
2019-04-08T14:14:53Z wasamasa: yes
2019-04-08T14:15:05Z ecraven: wow, whoever came up with this? ;) interesting
2019-04-08T14:15:16Z wasamasa: it's like someone tried to make dynamic binding in elisp safer
2019-04-08T14:17:13Z wasamasa: it's a pattern in that language, lots of cool sounding features until you start delving in the details, particularly interaction between them
2019-04-08T14:18:01Z wasamasa: you could probably simulate it easily in a scheme with parameters by using a helper function checking whether the parameter is bound to something useful
2019-04-08T14:18:04Z ecraven: I'll need to look at hypergiant again, maybe that has a better (non-imperative) API
2019-04-08T14:18:25Z ecraven: yea, but you don't get the automatic part
2019-04-08T14:18:25Z wasamasa: or maybe array processing languages
2019-04-08T14:18:43Z wasamasa: they do this pattern of either changing a variable or a complete array a lot
2019-04-08T14:18:54Z wasamasa: you never think in terms of an individual array slot manipulation
2019-04-08T14:20:08Z ecraven: the nanovg demo does this: nvgBezierTo(vg, sx[i-1]+dx*0.5f,sy[i-1], sx[i]-dx*0.5f,sy[i], sx[i],sy[i]);
2019-04-08T14:20:21Z ecraven: that's very awkward to express in Scheme, lots of stupid `vector-ref's
2019-04-08T14:20:25Z jcowan: SRFI 122 works mostly in terms of whole arrays
2019-04-08T14:20:37Z ecraven: normally I'd just run that with a vector-for-each, but it also needs to access the previous ones (i-1)
2019-04-08T14:20:50Z wasamasa: so, a fold operation?
2019-04-08T14:21:13Z ecraven: no, you'd need a for-each/map that gets the current and the previous value for each parameter
2019-04-08T14:21:27Z jcowan: Fold can do it, but it would involve a lot of allocation.
2019-04-08T14:22:13Z ecraven: another question, nanovg prefixes everything with nvg. should the scheme library also do this, or remove the prefix and leave it up to the importing user?
2019-04-08T14:22:27Z wasamasa: I went for the latter
2019-04-08T14:22:41Z ecraven: might be strange to see error messages and stack traces with different function names than the ones you actually use :-/
2019-04-08T14:22:43Z wasamasa: it's more awkward to force a prefix removal on a user
2019-04-08T14:22:47Z ecraven: I'm leaning towards that too
2019-04-08T14:22:57Z wasamasa: whereas prefixing is something commonly supported
2019-04-08T14:23:42Z wasamasa: anyway, sounds like you might end up inventing something like one of the many CL mapping procedures, but for vectors
2019-04-08T14:24:22Z ecraven: yea... I should check how APL deals with these things
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2019-04-08T15:03:51Z ecraven: wasamasa: have you ever thought of creating some way to "interactively" write code against such a ui? so that if anything crashes, it just doesn't display that "local" part of the ui, but shows everything else until you redefine it to work again?
2019-04-08T15:03:55Z ecraven: sorry, I'm not explaining this very well
2019-04-08T15:06:40Z gwatt: I've seen things like that in javascript.
2019-04-08T15:07:17Z ecraven: yea, I'd like something like that for slime / Scheme ;)
2019-04-08T15:07:36Z ecraven: methings that would make developping games a lot simpler!
2019-04-08T15:07:45Z ecraven: (not that I have any actual experience with making games, so ymmv)
2019-04-08T15:08:01Z gwatt: I have only once made a game, but it was in C#
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2019-04-08T15:13:44Z wasamasa: ecraven: I think I've seen it in a game demo where you got an error screen
2019-04-08T15:13:52Z wasamasa: ecraven: you should like, ask Kooda about it
2019-04-08T15:20:34Z johnjay: hmm
2019-04-08T15:20:42Z johnjay: ,(1- (expt 2 29))
2019-04-08T15:32:58Z jcowan: I'm going to propose a drop-prefix  import specifier for R7RS-large, but I don't know if it will pass.
2019-04-08T15:33:17Z ecraven: it makes a lot of sense, imho. any reason not to like it?
2019-04-08T15:33:49Z johnjay: jcowan: like foo-sort, foo-fold, foo-update for package foo?
2019-04-08T15:33:53Z ecraven: otherwise, just propose (modify-prefix (lambda (symbol) ...) <symbols>...) :P :D
2019-04-08T15:34:06Z ecraven: johnjay: to remove that prefix from all of those on import
2019-04-08T15:34:12Z johnjay: trippy
2019-04-08T15:34:43Z jcowan: johnjay: Right.  ecraven: That would require being able to execute Scheme code at import time, whereas currently import specifiers are purely declarative.  I'd like to keep them that way.
2019-04-08T15:34:58Z jcowan: But of course you could drop a prefix and add another, shorter prefix.
2019-04-08T15:35:12Z ecraven: jcowan: ah, let's rebuild CL :D
2019-04-08T15:35:29Z ecraven: seriously though, I think there's a lot *for* drop-prefix and not much against it
2019-04-08T15:35:45Z ecraven: in functionality, I don't much care about the actual name, remove-prefix, strip-prefix, whatever
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2019-04-08T15:36:38Z jcowan: (import (prefix (drop-prefix (foo-lib) foo-) f:))
2019-04-08T15:37:17Z ecraven: lgtm
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2019-04-08T15:42:25Z jcowan: I wish that the identifier came first, but the Little Tin Gods of R6RS decreed otherwise.
2019-04-08T15:42:48Z jcowan: (prefix f: (drop-prefix foo- (foo-lib))) would be a lot more readable.
2019-04-08T15:43:07Z ecraven: well, note it down for r8rs :-/
2019-04-08T15:43:24Z jcowan: No thank you!
2019-04-08T15:43:46Z jcowan: Y'all can get to R8RS when I'm dead, though you'll have to pry r8rs.org away from the SBCL folks.
2019-04-08T15:44:07Z ecraven: we'll just call it r21rs or whatever the year is then :P
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2019-04-08T15:47:23Z rain1: are we able to implement (modify-prefix f: foo- (foo-lib)) ?
2019-04-08T15:47:51Z ecraven: rain1: the problem is not implementing it, but the fact that the existing `prefix' takes its arguments in the "wrong" order
2019-04-08T15:48:26Z rain1: im just wondering if we can implement new import thingies
2019-04-08T15:48:33Z ecraven: not portably, I think
2019-04-08T15:48:45Z rain1: that seems like something important that's missing
2019-04-08T15:49:21Z ecraven: well, there's a lot of important things missing :-/
2019-04-08T15:50:15Z rain1: yeah
2019-04-08T15:50:24Z rain1: with regard to modules/importing
2019-04-08T15:50:38Z rain1: my biggest frustration is it makes you put all code in ()'s
2019-04-08T15:51:04Z ecraven: not sure what you mean, there's a lot of () in Scheme
2019-04-08T15:51:09Z johnjay: why would sbcl be using r8rs?
2019-04-08T15:51:22Z ecraven: johnjay: they aren't, but someone registered the domain, for fun, probably
2019-04-08T15:51:38Z ecraven: I'm guessing that they might be persuaded to part with it if that becomes relevant
2019-04-08T15:51:58Z ecraven: I actually chuckled when I first heard about this ;) not a bad joke :P
2019-04-08T15:52:28Z rain1: when you use define-library all the definitions have to be the define library form - so auto-indent tries to indent the the file
2019-04-08T15:52:35Z johnjay: oh yeah people still do domain squatting even these days
2019-04-08T15:52:37Z rain1: it's like letrec as opposed to define basically
2019-04-08T15:52:57Z johnjay: like if an organization is branching out internationally and they forget to register the uk, de, etc suffixes
2019-04-08T15:53:10Z ecraven: rain1: I fix that by just using `include' and putting the code in its own file
2019-04-08T15:53:26Z rain1: yeah that's my workaround too but then you have 2x as many files and i don't like that
2019-04-08T15:54:19Z ecraven: I like the fact that the define-library form encloses the library code, but the *editors* should provide some way to evaluate the forms inside, instead of evaluating the entire define-library form
2019-04-08T15:54:44Z rain1: what do you like about it?
2019-04-08T15:55:20Z ecraven: I think it's better that way. I prefer wrapping things to just saying "starts here, ends over there"
2019-04-08T15:56:02Z rain1: what about the approach of having the library definition one form at the start of the file, the entire rest of the file would just be definitions that are "inside" that library
2019-04-08T15:56:20Z ecraven: I don't like that ;)
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2019-04-08T16:30:50Z ecraven: one explanation is that that would be very file-centric.. I like "world" images, like the old lisps and smalltalk..
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2019-04-08T18:16:23Z jcowan: see https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/LibraryDeclarationsCowan.md for a (too) comprehensive proposal for new library and import declarations
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2019-04-08T18:23:33Z rain1: how about a way to define library/import decls
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2019-04-08T18:57:48Z aeth: just use 8.rnrs.something instead of r8rs.org or every inc will be an issue
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2019-04-08T19:25:35Z rain1: w e fdon't have to call it r8rs
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2019-04-08T19:35:33Z gwatt: I think the thing to do is see if whoever owns scheme.com is amenable to making it a more lively place
2019-04-08T19:35:58Z rain1: i think that's kent dybvig, but it's kind of the chez homepage
2019-04-08T19:36:01Z rain1: despite the very generic name
2019-04-08T19:37:57Z ecraven: who own scheme.org? that'd be best, imho
2019-04-08T19:38:07Z gwatt: It's either kent or cisco, but since Chez went open source the only important info at scheme.com is TSPL
2019-04-08T19:38:29Z ecraven: scheme.org redirects to schemer.sorg
2019-04-08T19:38:31Z ecraven: schemers.org
2019-04-08T19:38:37Z gwatt: or that
2019-04-08T19:38:50Z ecraven: which wouldn't be the worst home for rnrs either
2019-04-08T19:39:51Z gwatt: supposedly the registry for rnrs.org expires 2019-10-03, but it's silly to wait and hope that lapses
2019-04-08T19:40:11Z ecraven: mostly people notice and renew..
2019-04-08T19:40:17Z ecraven: except for library.readscheme.org :-/
2019-04-08T19:40:20Z gwatt: heh
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2019-04-08T19:41:58Z gwatt: maybe the new owner will forget to re-register. Until then, you can hope the server stays up and use custom /etc/hosts entry to access it
2019-04-08T19:44:46Z wasamasa: I'm still surprised nothing emerged to rehost it
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2019-04-08T19:44:59Z wasamasa: maybe I should do the job after all and ignore the people claiming they did it
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2019-04-08T19:48:27Z gwatt: Can't hurt.
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2019-04-08T19:49:26Z gwatt: schemewiki.org also seems to be down for me ...
2019-04-08T19:56:52Z rain1: I think it would be a good idea to copy the stuff off library.readscheme.org onto a github wiki
2019-04-08T19:56:56Z rain1: and upload the papers into it
2019-04-08T19:57:07Z rain1: it is easily cloned and migrated
2019-04-08T20:02:11Z wasamasa: git is pretty bad for this
2019-04-08T20:02:39Z gwatt: but gh-pages are a fairly convenient method of static site hosting
2019-04-08T20:03:34Z wasamasa: so is pointing a server at a web root :P
2019-04-08T20:05:50Z gnomon: rain1, I agree that it should probably be mirrored someplace, but wasamasa is right that git isn't great for storing a bunch of large PDFs
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2019-04-08T20:20:36Z rain1: it works fine
2019-04-08T20:21:32Z rain1: gnomon: why do you think git is not going to store some pdfs
2019-04-08T20:22:20Z gwatt: rain1: git is bad at storing non-textual data.
2019-04-08T20:22:37Z rain1: have you tried
2019-04-08T20:23:12Z gwatt: edit : git is bad at storing binary data that requires frequent updating
2019-04-08T20:23:24Z gwatt: but that's probably not the case here
2019-04-08T20:23:24Z rain1: they never get updated
2019-04-08T20:26:54Z gwatt: Yeah, it's completely fine for this case. However, it's a huge problem for, e.g., ChezScheme where the repo is almost 2G because of the bootfiles
2019-04-08T20:28:20Z rain1: yeah chez is really annoying with that
2019-04-08T20:28:25Z rain1: i wish they didin't do that
2019-04-08T20:28:41Z gwatt shrugs
2019-04-08T20:28:44Z rain1: it's because the system is self hosted and they want to include binaries capable of bootstrapping the compiler in every single commit
2019-04-08T20:28:55Z gwatt: s/want to/need to/
2019-04-08T20:29:04Z gwatt: otherwise you couldn't build Chez
2019-04-08T20:29:11Z rain1: they should have the binaries stored on a HTTP server, named by git commit
2019-04-08T20:29:19Z rain1: not tracked inside git
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2019-04-08T20:29:45Z gwatt: that complicates the build process
2019-04-08T20:32:01Z rain1: it fixes the problem
2019-04-08T20:32:28Z gwatt: only if you're building from a git repository
2019-04-08T20:32:46Z gwatt: if you download the archive you don't have the commit info
2019-04-08T20:32:54Z gwatt: or the bootfiles
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2019-04-08T21:12:23Z johnjay: oh yeah that reminds me
2019-04-08T21:12:34Z johnjay: i had tried to compile chez scheme to get the boot files so i could compile it on rpi3
2019-04-08T21:12:46Z johnjay: but it wanted things like uuid-dev so i forgot about it
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2019-04-09T02:53:10Z jcowan: I opposed the name "R7RS" as I thought the joke was pretty much worn out, but the WG voted otherwise.
2019-04-09T02:53:29Z jcowan: And it's true that names like "X Scheme" generally refer to particular implementations.
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2019-04-09T03:58:12Z aeth: jcowan: Personally, the year is probably the best thing to name a standard with, which is probably why it's so common
2019-04-09T03:58:22Z aeth: s/Personally/Personally, I think that/
2019-04-09T03:58:49Z aeth: Of course, that wouldn't have worked with r7rs because of the multi-year gap between r7rs-small and r7rs-large
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2019-04-09T05:20:00Z ecraven: R21RS: Revised in '21 Report on Scheme
2019-04-09T05:22:08Z aeth: wow, Scheme is older than I thought
2019-04-09T05:25:25Z johnjay: aeth: it goes way back
2019-04-09T05:25:34Z johnjay: guy steele surprisingly did a lot of stuff
2019-04-09T05:27:32Z Zipheir: Including a comic...
2019-04-09T05:29:02Z ecraven: which comic?
2019-04-09T05:30:19Z Zipheir: Crunchly
2019-04-09T05:32:05Z Zipheir: Here's one: http://catb.org/jargon/html/graphics/73-05-18.png
2019-04-09T05:32:52Z ecraven: ah, The Great Quux
2019-04-09T05:32:56Z ecraven: must have been fun times back then and there
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2019-04-09T05:46:15Z johnjay: there was a webcomic about linux
2019-04-09T05:46:24Z johnjay: it had stallman, esr, and linus doing wacky antics
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2019-04-09T06:01:01Z Zipheir: This?  It's got all those people.  https://xkcd.com/225/
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2019-04-09T09:50:08Z jusss: Continuation is a Monad?
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2019-04-09T09:58:27Z deuill: Yep, and a monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors
2019-04-09T10:00:30Z aeth: The best part about that quote is that the reader thinks that at least they know what "category" means, but no. It's a different meaning of the word "category".
2019-04-09T10:04:40Z rain1: jusss: yeh
2019-04-09T10:04:53Z rain1: less of that would be nice, deuill
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2019-04-09T10:08:54Z hugo: Isn't just about everything monads?
2019-04-09T10:09:25Z hugo: I implemented haskell style bind (>>=) in scheme, which allowed any value to be treated as a monad of the scheme type system
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2019-04-09T10:51:36Z jusss: rain1: deuill hugo and what is a monad?
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2019-04-09T10:58:51Z deuill: It's mostly over my head, but that's a quote from a book, there's an explanation here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3870088/a-monad-is-just-a-monoid-in-the-category-of-endofunctors-whats-the-problem
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2019-04-09T11:18:21Z siraben: Monads really made sense for me when it came to parsers
2019-04-09T11:18:44Z siraben: https://github.com/siraben/monadic-parsing
2019-04-09T11:18:51Z siraben: I should rewrite it to make for better parsing errors
2019-04-09T11:19:31Z fizzie: Our channel's fact-db went a little overboard with the "is/are just" joke: http://ix.io/1FJO
2019-04-09T11:20:26Z siraben: lol that definition of morphism
2019-04-09T11:21:24Z siraben: It's correct, but that just begs the question of what a natural transformation is, which is a mapping between functors, and functors are mappings between categories preserving certain properties about composition and morphisms in the category etc. etc.
2019-04-09T11:22:04Z fizzie: It also defines functors as "morphisms in the category of small categories."
2019-04-09T11:22:41Z siraben: It's morphisms all the way down
2019-04-09T11:23:20Z siraben: I find categories insanely abstract, it makes groups seem much more tangible and applicable
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2019-04-09T11:32:04Z fizzie: https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.15102 for the full list if anyone's bored, though a bunch of these are in-jokes or just use "just" normally.
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2019-04-09T11:34:37Z siraben: Speaking of strange terms, I need to really find out how to use dynamic-wind
2019-04-09T11:34:44Z siraben: call/cc was mind-blowing enough
2019-04-09T11:35:31Z LeoNerd: call/cc - otherwise known as This One Weird Trick Allows Crazy Reëntrancy; Implementers Hate It
2019-04-09T11:38:32Z siraben: Hm. I found implementing call/cc rather easy https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot/blob/62884adcb7236eceefcbf3d1d59006d43d844a75/src/SchemeEval.hs#L404-L416
2019-04-09T11:38:56Z LeoNerd: It possibly depends on various other details of your underlying implementation
2019-04-09T11:39:07Z LeoNerd: Making a call/ec is easy enough
2019-04-09T11:39:16Z siraben: I'm probably cheating a bit by using converting the formal semantics directly into Haskell
2019-04-09T11:39:25Z LeoNerd: Making a call/cc that can be used multiple times, including after scope return, is much harder
2019-04-09T11:39:44Z LeoNerd: Ah yes, possibly nested atop another HLL makes that easier
2019-04-09T11:40:14Z LeoNerd: I wrote a Scheme on top of Perl 5... that was amusing. Perl having tailcalls meant most of it mapped quite simply across :)
2019-04-09T11:40:57Z LeoNerd: I'm still missing call/cc and dynamic-wind but I believe I have everything else
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2019-04-09T11:42:09Z siraben: Parsing as well, right?
2019-04-09T11:42:22Z LeoNerd: Oh the parsing is the real easy bit. Scheme is lovely at that
2019-04-09T11:43:44Z siraben: My strategy is somewhat esoteric when it comes to parsing, I desugar it during the parsing phase into only lambda, if, set! and procedure calls
2019-04-09T11:43:48Z siraben: To preserve the core semantics
2019-04-09T11:44:40Z siraben: '(a b c) becomes (cons (quote a) (cons (quote b) (cons (quote c) (quote ()))))
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2019-04-09T14:55:36Z jcowan: johnjay: You were thinking of "Everyone Loves Eric Raymond", archived at https://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/eler-highlights-2008
2019-04-09T14:55:54Z jcowan: unfortunately the only nav seems to be next and prev links at the bottom, below all the (usually uninteresting) comments.
2019-04-09T14:56:47Z amz3: I am making a backup of library.readscheme.org inside a git repository
2019-04-09T14:57:01Z amz3: in case someone else has the good idea to do the same
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2019-04-09T15:01:37Z gwatt: I had started a download script, but that's about all the progress so far
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2019-04-09T15:34:14Z amz3: this. is. very. big.
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2019-04-09T15:35:35Z wasamasa: no shit
2019-04-09T15:35:53Z wasamasa: but eh, I told you yesterday all about it
2019-04-09T15:36:04Z wasamasa: use git-lfs or something
2019-04-09T15:37:06Z amz3: I will back up the files with wget --mirror
2019-04-09T15:37:17Z amz3: and figure a way to extract metadata later
2019-04-09T15:37:43Z amz3: and format it in a nice way
2019-04-09T15:37:58Z wasamasa: I think I'll just use httrack
2019-04-09T15:45:39Z amz3: it already 1.5G
2019-04-09T15:46:15Z amz3: unlikely that github will accept that payload
2019-04-09T15:47:54Z civodul: store that in IPFS!
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2019-04-09T15:49:58Z amz3: hey hey
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2019-04-09T16:17:23Z amz3: it is at https://github.com/scheme-live/library.readscheme.org/archive/v0.tar.gz
2019-04-09T16:18:21Z rain1: amz3++
2019-04-09T16:22:16Z wasamasa: ouch
2019-04-09T16:22:28Z wasamasa: where exactly did you mirror it from, an IP address?
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2019-04-09T16:37:14Z wasamasa: ah, got it working
2019-04-09T16:37:35Z wasamasa: 212.110.186.28  readscheme.org library.readscheme.org
2019-04-09T16:37:50Z wasamasa: you put that in your /etc/hosts, then start crawling
2019-04-09T16:42:23Z wasamasa: fun stuff, to think that's all required to make your browser do the right requests against that bare IP address
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2019-04-09T17:00:32Z gwatt: you also want repository.readscheme.org
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2019-04-09T17:30:19Z wasamasa: hum
2019-04-09T17:30:23Z wasamasa: what's pointing to that?
2019-04-09T17:31:02Z wasamasa: do you have any example url?
2019-04-09T17:35:08Z gwatt: some of the PDFs
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2019-04-09T17:36:25Z gwatt: http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-349.pdf
2019-04-09T17:37:01Z wasamasa: hum
2019-04-09T17:37:33Z wasamasa: very well
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2019-04-09T18:28:08Z Zipheir: amz3: Nice, thanks for your work!
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2019-04-09T22:23:02Z amz3: hey, schemers I have an idea for an application related to ##machinelearning and opendata
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2019-04-09T22:23:55Z amz3: it is an idea I have bee nurturing for quiet some time and you can find clues about it at https://github.com/amirouche/hoply/ https://github.com/amirouche/seyfu https://github.com/amirouche/awesome-data-distribution
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2019-04-09T22:25:17Z amz3: basically, the idea is create a suite software that will ease collboration around data
2019-04-09T22:26:06Z amz3: something like gitlab etc... but for data.
2019-04-09T22:26:16Z amz3: checkout https://github.com/amirouche/awesome-data-distribution
2019-04-09T22:26:50Z amz3: in particular read this paper https://git.io/fjJDm
2019-04-09T22:27:27Z amz3: I have been working on this for some time, but now is the time to give it some boost so if you are interested by the idea, chime in.
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2019-04-10T10:12:32Z wasamasa: my readscheme.org mirror is now 320M
2019-04-10T10:12:40Z wasamasa: I think I'm missing something
2019-04-10T10:17:00Z z0d: just open the web site in a browser and you'll see
2019-04-10T10:17:49Z wasamasa: well, most links point to external stuff, the only thing that has been reliably mirrored is the repository.readscheme.org stuff
2019-04-10T10:18:20Z z0d: I'm redirected to a 3rd party sites with ads and houses
2019-04-10T10:19:22Z z0d: you aren't?
2019-04-10T10:20:25Z wasamasa: well, I messed around a bit to get the papers
2019-04-10T10:24:39Z z0d: https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/b8j7i3/what_happened_to_readschemeorg/
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2019-04-10T10:32:12Z wasamasa: well, I mostly need the titles anyway
2019-04-10T10:32:25Z wasamasa: maybe it would be better served as a wiki
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2019-04-10T10:44:46Z z0d: you can use the trick mentioned on the reddit post
2019-04-10T10:44:52Z z0d: put the old IPs in hosts
2019-04-10T10:46:00Z wasamasa: I did
2019-04-10T10:46:07Z wasamasa: still lots of 404 during mirroring
2019-04-10T10:46:52Z z0d: yeah, mostly for CSS files
2019-04-10T10:47:24Z wasamasa: I propose a wiki because you'll need new content eventually and so that people can fix things
2019-04-10T10:47:42Z z0d: yeah, good idea
2019-04-10T10:48:09Z z0d: wget doesn't seem to download .ps and .pdf files. even though I have -p
2019-04-10T10:48:26Z wasamasa: I'm using httrack with -n to download from other domains
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2019-04-10T10:48:55Z wasamasa: the most recent additions are from 2012
2019-04-10T10:49:56Z wasamasa: now, distributing a wiki is a problem
2019-04-10T10:50:00Z z0d: let's see httrack
2019-04-10T10:50:35Z wasamasa: the problem with httrack is that it's designed to be a gui thing and docs are in html, not an offline manual
2019-04-10T10:51:17Z z0d: did you specify both sites or just readscheme.org
2019-04-10T10:51:24Z wasamasa: just readscheme.org
2019-04-10T10:51:39Z wasamasa: I'll try the other one now
2019-04-10T10:53:08Z wasamasa: ah, that explains the discrepancy, lots more things accessible there than actually linked from the other website
2019-04-10T10:58:35Z wasamasa: maybe ikiwiki works for this purpose
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2019-04-10T11:50:16Z z0d: there's also http://community.schemewiki.org/
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2019-04-10T12:17:58Z wasamasa: I'll want it to be backed by git or such, so that you can easily mirror it
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2019-04-10T14:51:39Z gwatt: using wget, I got 749M
2019-04-10T14:51:50Z gwatt: that didn't include any externally hosted pdfs
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2019-04-10T18:53:28Z zigzag: the CFP is not ready for scheme 2019
2019-04-10T18:53:30Z zigzag: https://icfp19.sigplan.org/home/scheme-2019
2019-04-10T18:53:32Z zigzag: sadly
2019-04-10T18:54:31Z z0d: wasamasa: I started mirroring, but it's utterly slow
2019-04-10T18:54:51Z z0d: been running for almost 7 hours now
2019-04-10T18:55:23Z z0d: I don't know why the download speed is like 10-20 kB/s
2019-04-10T18:55:36Z gwatt: I wonder if everyone decided to mirror it all at once...
2019-04-10T18:56:45Z gwatt: though at this point, that shouldn't be necessary. amz3 downloaded it and put it an archive here: https://github.com/scheme-live/library.readscheme.org/archive/v0.tar.gz
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2019-04-10T18:58:32Z k-hos: If anyone is familiar with embedding chibi-scheme; running make clibs.c seems to fail on a lot of files, presumably because they didn’t have their corresponding .c files generated from the .stub files, is this because they may not work on my platform or something?
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2019-04-10T20:18:01Z k-hos: alternativly if anyone knows how chibi-scheme searches for its library files that would help, once embeded I can't seem to get it to load anything
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2019-04-10T20:47:18Z johnjay: chibi-scheme... o_0
2019-04-10T20:47:28Z k-hos: ._.
2019-04-10T20:48:18Z johnjay: also wasamasa what was readscheme and what are you downloading from it
2019-04-10T20:48:24Z johnjay: like guy steel papers?
2019-04-10T20:48:29Z johnjay: from that webarchive link?
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2019-04-10T21:44:17Z jcowan: johnjay: It's got a *whole lot* of old Scheme papers, many of which are still very useful.  It's just that we don't have the domain any more.
2019-04-10T21:48:57Z gwatt: jcowan: is there domain that you (or someone you know) controls that could easily add a copy of the readscheme site?
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2019-04-10T21:49:26Z jcowan: I think that's what wasamasa is doing.
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2019-04-10T21:50:06Z gwatt: ok
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2019-04-10T22:24:24Z k-hos: I think I found my issue, or at least part of it, turns out sexp_eval_string doesn't evaluate the string as if it had an implicit (begin) around it
2019-04-10T22:24:42Z k-hos: and none of my tests made this obvious, things would just not work ._.
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2019-04-11T01:44:35Z johnjay: jcowan: ah ok. i still have that webarchive link that wasamasa gave me before
2019-04-11T01:44:48Z johnjay: it sounds like guy steele might have been an amazing writer from the looks of it
2019-04-11T01:45:09Z johnjay: my issue is that if you can't run the code from those old papers then all you have is the pure ideas
2019-04-11T01:45:27Z johnjay: which may be either a trivial task or a multi year research project
2019-04-11T01:45:46Z johnjay: to run in code that is
2019-04-11T01:50:01Z jcowan: You can run the code with some adjustments.  I was able to get a program of John McCarthy himself running from 1958, with trivial changes only.
2019-04-11T01:50:25Z jcowan: <http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2011/11/john-mccarthy-inventor-of-lisp-died.html>
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2019-04-11T02:23:29Z johnjay: i see
2019-04-11T02:23:34Z johnjay: must be that lisp nature
2019-04-11T02:23:41Z johnjay: where you just have symbols and ()
2019-04-11T02:24:36Z aeth: well, there are other special stuff, normally beginning with #
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2019-04-11T03:16:53Z Zipheir: johnjay: You don't need to run old code on your machine to learn from it.  Just run it on your brain.
2019-04-11T03:26:00Z johnjay: Zipheir: my brain has trouble running c or assembly at least
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2019-04-11T05:30:52Z wasamasa: jcowan, johnjay: indeed, that's my plan as soon as that mirroring job is done
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2019-04-11T05:47:33Z ecraven: my readscheme mirror is 1.5G
2019-04-11T05:47:47Z ecraven: repository/ftp is most of that
2019-04-11T05:47:57Z ecraven: library is just a bunch of html files
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2019-04-11T08:32:36Z z0d: wasamasa: what CLI options are you using for httrack?
2019-04-11T08:33:06Z wasamasa: > HTTrack Website Copier/3.49-2 mirror complete in 17 hours 37 minutes 48 seconds : 3478 links scanned, 2557 files written (1576843650 bytes overall), 1719 files updated
2019-04-11T08:33:30Z wasamasa: -v -n -O web
2019-04-11T08:34:03Z wasamasa: plus --update to do the second mirroring
2019-04-11T08:46:15Z z0d: hanks
2019-04-11T08:46:56Z z0d: I used -r, but that went crazy
2019-04-11T08:49:38Z wasamasa: anyway, today at the hackerspace I'll try putting up a preliminary version, then figure out what to do about references to repository.readscheme.org
2019-04-11T08:49:57Z wasamasa: wget with --spider might help for this, it checks whether urls are fine
2019-04-11T08:50:41Z wasamasa: then there's the question what domain/server I pick for this endeavor
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2019-04-11T08:52:27Z wasamasa: I have an ovh one with omnomnom.it unused
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2019-04-11T08:58:33Z deuill: I can donate a few bucks for hosting, what domain are you looking to put this under?
2019-04-11T08:58:56Z wasamasa: idk, for now it's just experimentation
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2019-04-11T10:15:06Z deuill: One of the main sticky points I hit when learning Scheme was the disprarity of learning resources, I guess a reflection of how the language itself is organised
2019-04-11T10:15:39Z deuill: s/sticky/sticking/
2019-04-11T10:16:50Z deuill: The closest thing to an official resource seems to be schemers.org, though that tends to be out-of-date or thin in places
2019-04-11T10:21:22Z ecraven: deuill: there's a ton of books
2019-04-11T10:21:28Z ecraven: many of them excellent!
2019-04-11T10:21:40Z ecraven: some of the best available online for free
2019-04-11T10:25:16Z deuill: SICP and the Little/Seasoned Schemer are the only ones I've read to some point, but I mainly meant that there doesn't seem to be a specific  home for the language itself...
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2019-04-11T10:26:02Z deuill: I guess the maintenance overhead ain't worth it, Bitbucket is good enough for anyone that cares
2019-04-11T10:26:07Z rain1: they're super books, I also liked reasoned schemer a lot
2019-04-11T10:26:10Z rain1: and little prover
2019-04-11T10:27:00Z ecraven: deuill: well, there *is* no one place that is the language home
2019-04-11T10:27:07Z ecraven: there's many places, spread all over
2019-04-11T10:27:48Z ecraven: some people have suggested Programming in Scheme (Eisenberg, ),
2019-04-11T10:27:52Z ecraven: Abelson, I quite like that
2019-04-11T10:29:02Z deuill: Aye, that's my point. I'm guessing anyone who cares will look past that, and people that don't care will just gravitate towards a specific implementation, Racket or Guile or what have you
2019-04-11T10:43:55Z deuill: Scheme-the-language doesn't get as good a representation as the implementations though
2019-04-11T10:43:55Z deuill: XMPP has largely a similar setup, with XEPs instead of SRFIs etc, but things tend to be more consolidated there, which I think helps with momentum
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2019-04-11T11:06:48Z jcowan: Part of the trouble is that schemers.org is not a wiki
2019-04-11T11:07:10Z jcowan: Right now scheme.org is just a link to schemers.org.  If someone put a wiki there it would be a Good Thing.
2019-04-11T11:09:02Z ecraven: jcowan: who owns scheme.org?
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2019-04-11T11:10:39Z gwatt: according to WHOIS, brown university.
2019-04-11T11:11:17Z ecraven: I checked, but didn't see that from what I got
2019-04-11T11:11:48Z jcowan: I tried a whois query at icann.org, but didn't get anything specific.  Strange.
2019-04-11T11:12:15Z gwatt: Tech Street: Computer Science Department, Box 1910, Brown University
2019-04-11T11:13:04Z ecraven: my whois doesn't show that ;) who's at Brown who would own scheme.org?
2019-04-11T11:15:08Z gwatt: hmm, weird. the mac osx whois returns way more info than linux
2019-04-11T11:17:02Z deuill: The IP address appears to be owned by neu.edu
2019-04-11T11:17:46Z deuill: http://barzilay.org/ is on the same IP address, I'd venture a guess and say the domain is owned by the same person
2019-04-11T11:18:10Z deuill: https://securitytrails.com/domain/scheme.org/dns
2019-04-11T11:18:53Z deuill: Or at least, they'd know something more?
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2019-04-11T12:18:24Z amz3: I created a "landing page" for the project I was talking about previously
2019-04-11T12:18:31Z amz3: https://github.com/awesome-data-distribution/datae#datae
2019-04-11T12:18:38Z amz3: feel free to join the fun
2019-04-11T12:29:27Z deuill: That's a beautiful visualization
2019-04-11T12:33:02Z amz3: tx
2019-04-11T12:40:01Z amz3: it is not mine, tho.
2019-04-11T12:42:43Z amz3: I mean I found it on the web
2019-04-11T12:45:26Z pjb: amz3: does it work?
2019-04-11T12:45:44Z pjb: I mean, creating landing page, and calling people to implement it for you.
2019-04-11T12:45:51Z pjb: Is it how free software works now?
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2019-04-11T13:11:27Z amz3: pjb: I am not asking people to implement it for me, I am actually doing the work. I suggest people an idea for a project that *I* consider worthwhile, it is up to them to decide whether they want to join forces or not.
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2019-04-11T14:54:51Z Boarders: say I want to take a pair '(a . b) and then do a function on the second thing to get back '(a . (f b)), what is the idiomatic way to write that
2019-04-11T14:54:54Z Boarders: if there is one?
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2019-04-11T14:57:52Z LeoNerd: I'd be tempted to define an (apply-cdr f p)
2019-04-11T14:58:43Z LeoNerd: Though, ... it's not really apply-like
2019-04-11T15:01:20Z johnjay: what is "hackerspace"?
2019-04-11T15:01:26Z johnjay: is that like hyperspace?
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2019-04-11T15:03:55Z Boarders: I am trying to do something like this: https://paste.debian.net/1077145/
2019-04-11T15:04:05Z Boarders: but it does not have the correct behaviour due to quoting
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2019-04-11T15:04:33Z Boarders: i.e. when I do (term-derivative '(1 . 1)) I get back: (coeff - power 1)
2019-04-11T15:04:53Z Boarders: I am new to scheme so not used to quotes, does anyone know how I get it to return a pair properly?
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2019-04-11T15:11:38Z wasamasa: johnjay: it's a space filled with hackers
2019-04-11T15:12:13Z johnjay: yeah i'm just being cheeky
2019-04-11T15:12:28Z johnjay: i was wondering if you meant like a hackaday thing or just a place you hang out irl
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2019-04-11T15:26:12Z gwatt: Boarders: probably the easiest is just (cons (car p) (f (cdr p)))
2019-04-11T15:26:38Z Boarders: gwatt: thank you, I did that in the end
2019-04-11T15:26:56Z Boarders: I suppose the point is that cons is a function and so will evaluate its arguments whereas quote will not?
2019-04-11T15:27:30Z gwatt: that's correct.
2019-04-11T15:27:43Z gwatt: quote is a special form that will return datum literals
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2019-04-11T15:38:00Z wasamasa: johnjay: I'll walk into one today
2019-04-11T15:38:08Z wasamasa: johnjay: the opposite is meatspace, a space filled with bodies
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2019-04-11T15:41:10Z johnjay: ah ok
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2019-04-11T16:27:20Z Zipheir: hackerspace ≠ meatspace => hackers are vegetables?
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2019-04-11T16:30:12Z amz3: but some a vegan
2019-04-11T16:30:16Z amz3: but some are vegan
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2019-04-11T17:06:15Z jcowan: And some plants are carnivorous.
2019-04-11T17:08:11Z jcowan: And some animals are hominivorous if you give them a chance.
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2019-04-11T17:08:48Z jcowan: I have worked out something like a plan for a Posix SRFI based on a subset of scsh, but portable to at least Chicken, Chibi, and Guile
2019-04-11T17:09:23Z jcowan: However, I am very uncertain what to do about trapping Posix signals, especially in the presence of Scheme-level threads.
2019-04-11T17:10:53Z jcowan: scsh translates the async ones into VM interrupts so that it can guarantee the trap is only run between Scheme48 bytecodes, Chibi just sets a flag that wakes up a special thread, and Chicken (I think) runs them directly, with concomitant limitations on what can be done from a Posix signal handler.
2019-04-11T17:11:13Z jcowan: I don't know what Guile does yet.
2019-04-11T17:11:18Z jcowan: It all looks like a big mess.
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2019-04-11T17:47:18Z gwatt: I think that's the consensus on signals
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2019-04-11T19:53:33Z Riastradh: amz3: I'm not sure eating hackers is allowed in any vegan diet I've heard of.
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2019-04-11T20:36:27Z amz3: :)
2019-04-11T20:37:09Z amz3: by the way, I sent a SRFI proposal about the work I have been doing, see https://github.com/scheme-live/generic-tuple-store-database
2019-04-11T20:37:22Z amz3: wish me luck :)
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2019-04-11T21:35:43Z jcowan: amz3: LGTM at a quick glance.  I thihnk you should nail down what kind of streams you are using: see SRFIs 41, 127, and 158, all of which are part of R7RS-large.
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2019-04-11T22:11:25Z amz3: tx for the feedback
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2019-04-11T22:26:54Z wasamasa: so much about doing web stuff at the hackerspace
2019-04-11T22:27:06Z wasamasa: I didn't even get to pull out my laptop
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2019-04-11T22:29:13Z rain1: https://github.com/scheme-live/library.readscheme.org#bibliography-of-scheme-related-research
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2019-04-12T08:33:13Z z0d: some of the link on readscheme.org are already dead
2019-04-12T08:33:25Z z0d: I could fetch some of them via archive.org
2019-04-12T08:33:40Z ecraven: z0d: directly on readscheme or external links?
2019-04-12T08:33:54Z ecraven: not sure, my dump is 1.5G, larger than some of the recent ones
2019-04-12T08:33:58Z z0d: well, external links
2019-04-12T08:34:06Z ecraven: yea, those are much harder
2019-04-12T08:35:30Z z0d: e.g. http://www.cs.uu.nl/~dave/talks/ghxml.pdf
2019-04-12T08:36:02Z rain1: z0d the links to readscheme need to bbe transformed to local links
2019-04-12T08:36:23Z z0d: yes, I agree
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2019-04-12T08:37:24Z wasamasa: rain1: is that you: https://github.com/rain-1 ?
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2019-04-12T08:40:57Z z0d: I would think so. the Scheme community is too small for 2 rain1 nicks :->
2019-04-12T08:42:29Z wasamasa: well, I'd still like a confirmation
2019-04-12T08:42:30Z mario-goulart: Strictly speaking, one is 1 and the other one is -1.
2019-04-12T08:42:46Z wasamasa: I keep running into rain1 here and there
2019-04-12T08:43:03Z z0d: I saw his post in reddit in the readscheme thread
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2019-04-12T17:03:54Z ecraven: hm.. I find myself writing a lot of code in elisp that I'd rather write in Scheme, because I use it in emacs.. so that probably means I should switch to edwin!
2019-04-12T17:11:24Z pjb: OR, you can use M-x run-scheme
2019-04-12T17:31:26Z z0d: well, Scheme is the official extension langauge of GNU
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2019-04-12T17:32:48Z johnjay: what does that mean though
2019-04-12T17:32:57Z johnjay: like, every application needs to incorporate guile.h into it?
2019-04-12T17:35:53Z z0d: I don't think they "need to", but I guess it's encouraged
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2019-04-12T17:43:52Z johnjay: i should probably read more about guile to understand it
2019-04-12T17:44:13Z johnjay: i have this vague idea of like. you can make a library foo and call it from bash or emacs or gnucalc etc
2019-04-12T17:44:52Z johnjay: instead of telling gnome's calculator to add 2+2 you write a script that tells it to load 2, load 2, then add the result
2019-04-12T17:45:47Z z0d: no
2019-04-12T17:46:13Z z0d: the way it works is you can embed Guilde in your app, then you can write Scheme code which your app can execut
2019-04-12T17:46:16Z z0d: e
2019-04-12T17:47:20Z z0d: you can take a look at some applications, which already use Guile. GIMP or GnuCash for example
2019-04-12T17:47:48Z johnjay: yeah gimp is the only example i know about
2019-04-12T17:48:17Z johnjay: but guile already presumably does (+ 2 2)
2019-04-12T17:48:41Z johnjay: to get say a calculator in gtk to do it you'd need to call its own code which idk if you can do
2019-04-12T17:48:41Z z0d: https://alvinalexander.com/programming/gimp-script-fu-functions-parameters-examples
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2019-04-12T17:51:06Z johnjay: hmm ok
2019-04-12T17:51:12Z johnjay: so in the case of a calculator
2019-04-12T17:51:26Z johnjay: you'd call things like calc-button-add and
2019-04-12T17:51:49Z johnjay: then like (display-on-screen (+ (calc-argument 0) (calc-argument 1))
2019-04-12T17:52:08Z johnjay: and those functions would have to be provided by the person making the calculator
2019-04-12T17:52:22Z johnjay: like how gimp-layer-set-opacity is obviously from gimp
2019-04-12T17:52:58Z z0d: yes
2019-04-12T17:53:39Z johnjay: ok that's simpler.
2019-04-12T17:53:44Z johnjay: yeah i remember writing some stuff in script-fu a bit
2019-04-12T18:04:40Z Zipheir: Gimp doesn't use Guile!
2019-04-12T18:05:04Z z0d: what does it use?
2019-04-12T18:05:09Z Zipheir: TinyScheme
2019-04-12T18:05:14Z z0d: oh
2019-04-12T18:05:16Z z0d: my bad
2019-04-12T18:05:27Z Zipheir: So no syntax-rules for the miserable script-fu programmer.
2019-04-12T18:05:58Z z0d: you can probably get away without using it
2019-04-12T18:06:05Z z0d: in GIMP
2019-04-12T18:06:52Z Zipheir: IME, some macros are necessary to deal with the ugliness of script-fu, e.g. not using Scheme booleans, needless wrapper lists, etc.
2019-04-12T18:07:14Z Zipheir: But TinyScheme's dirty macros work fine for little things like that.
2019-04-12T18:12:49Z Zipheir: e.g. gimp- procedures return TRUE and FALSE, not #t/#f, so _all_ your ifs must look like (if (eqv? 'TRUE (gimp-bogus ...)) ...).  It's not exactly Schemely.
2019-04-12T18:13:20Z z0d: ouch
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2019-04-12T18:17:38Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, improving their Scheme integration does not seem to be a priority of the Gimp devs.
2019-04-12T18:18:50Z daviid: johnjay: http://lilypond.org extensively uses Guile and so can lilypond users of course, for info
2019-04-12T18:18:50Z johnjay: Zipheir: is there a lot of legacy tinyscheme code?
2019-04-12T18:18:59Z johnjay: besides i thought tinyscheme was really popular
2019-04-12T18:20:30Z Zipheir: I think it gets some use, yes.
2019-04-12T18:22:03Z Zipheir: I guess anything non-trivial in TinyScheme will be 'legacy' to some extent, since it's what, an R4RS subset?
2019-04-12T18:22:59Z z0d: wow. that's old
2019-04-12T18:23:11Z johnjay: daviid: lilypond is like tex for music?
2019-04-12T18:24:14Z Zipheir: johnjay: Yes.
2019-04-12T18:24:32Z johnjay: cool.
2019-04-12T18:24:41Z johnjay: so if you want to embed an R6RS scheme you're kinda out of luck
2019-04-12T18:24:44Z johnjay: unless you use guile?
2019-04-12T18:26:15Z Zipheir: I think that's right.
2019-04-12T18:26:39Z johnjay: i see
2019-04-12T18:26:42Z Zipheir: IIRC Guile doesn't have full R6 support either
2019-04-12T18:28:44Z Zipheir: But embedding scheme is really just an optimization anyway.  Write your program in Chez and work directly in Scheme, if you need R6.
2019-04-12T18:29:06Z johnjay: that reminds me, i need to try to fiddle with chez some more
2019-04-12T18:29:25Z johnjay: need to run it with certain options to get the boot files to compile it on my rpi3
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2019-04-12T18:57:14Z DKordic: johnjay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDSL
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2019-04-12T19:05:43Z johnjay: hmm so tinyscheme is an embedded domain specific language?
2019-04-12T19:09:20Z Zipheir: There are many overly-clever-and-abstract ways to say 'language', yes. :)
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2019-04-12T19:20:19Z DKordic: johnjay: No.  For example, [[http://www.nongnu.org/skribilo/][Skribilo]] and [[http://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/][Scribble]] are Hypertext EDSLs.  IMHO generation of HT_ML_ is marginal, like "print" is for S-Expressions: "(/= '1 "1")"!
2019-04-12T19:22:05Z DKordic: IMHO Format Strings are like Looping Macros instead of literal Recursion.
2019-04-12T19:24:51Z rain1: im not so keen on format strings
2019-04-12T19:24:56Z DKordic: I apologize for comparing ML of "HTML" to "read" ;) .
2019-04-12T19:24:58Z rain1: what about format expressions instead
2019-04-12T19:25:29Z DKordic: rain1: Have an example?
2019-04-12T19:25:39Z Zipheir: Like formatting combinators?
2019-04-12T19:27:00Z DKordic: Zipheir: Haven't even heard of it.  Example please?
2019-04-12T19:27:23Z aeth: Wow, HTML is an ML dialect?
2019-04-12T19:28:38Z Zipheir: DKordic: The scheme flavor: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-159/srfi-159.html
2019-04-12T19:28:48Z DKordic: aeth: :) No, I meant Markup Language.
2019-04-12T19:29:05Z Zipheir suddenly likes HTML more
2019-04-12T19:29:12Z wasamasa: hyper-threaded ML
2019-04-12T19:29:24Z z0d: lol
2019-04-12T19:31:43Z johnjay: ecraven: it's funny you mention chez scheme
2019-04-12T19:31:58Z johnjay: someone was saying the other day that the only reason chez scheme performs well on the benchmark
2019-04-12T19:32:09Z johnjay: is because it's designed to perform well at the tasks in the benchmark but not anything else
2019-04-12T19:32:37Z z0d: doesn't sound too plausible IMO
2019-04-12T19:32:38Z Zipheir: Hah.
2019-04-12T19:33:18Z johnjay: i guess it depends on what you consider to be a reasonable benchmark
2019-04-12T19:34:23Z z0d: I mean Chez has been around for quite a while. I don't think they put in the effort just to be good at the benchmarks
2019-04-12T19:34:57Z johnjay: the best benchmark would be a total application right
2019-04-12T19:35:06Z johnjay: like a calculator or pdf viewer or irc client
2019-04-12T19:35:36Z aeth: That actually happens all the time, but only with games.
2019-04-12T19:35:45Z z0d: yes, but still. it's hard to benchmark a language, because it can be used in unlimited scenarios
2019-04-12T19:36:13Z z0d: and computers are getting faster
2019-04-12T19:36:19Z aeth: eh
2019-04-12T19:36:29Z z0d: 40 years ago most high level languages wouldn't be usable
2019-04-12T19:36:37Z johnjay: maybe tinychez would be the best extension language add on for scheme
2019-04-12T19:36:39Z johnjay: instead of guile
2019-04-12T19:36:43Z z0d: nowadays you can use an inefficient langauge and be good with it
2019-04-12T19:36:52Z aeth: Computers are getting more parallel. "Faster" only happens if your application satisfies that, at least in part.
2019-04-12T19:37:35Z z0d: right, but not too long ago we had 256 MB RAM with like 200 MHz or so
2019-04-12T19:38:10Z z0d: my point is: computers are fast now, so you can get away with not so efficient langauges
2019-04-12T19:39:12Z Zipheir: johnjay: Why do you want an 'add-on' language?  We're lispers here, just load the extension code or expose a REPL
2019-04-12T19:40:04Z aeth: My point is that you better be thinking about 32+ cores because that's already there for some people. (Of course, there are other "parallel"s at work, like GPUs and pipelining.)
2019-04-12T19:40:57Z aeth: We can't assume that we'll get free speedups anymore
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2019-04-12T20:05:10Z johnjay: Zipheir: i don't exactly
2019-04-12T20:05:20Z johnjay: i like game emulator projects like snes9x
2019-04-12T20:05:33Z johnjay: so i vaguely wondered what would embedding scheme in a project like that do
2019-04-12T20:05:42Z johnjay is scared of fiddling with visual studio though
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2019-04-12T20:08:25Z johnjay: *would do
2019-04-12T20:15:44Z z0d: aeth: right
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2019-04-12T20:29:44Z aeth: Slight correction on 32 cores... it's $1799 for AMD Threadripper or $3400-$4200 for AMD Epyc with that core count so "a few people" is probably more accurate than "some people"
2019-04-12T20:31:03Z z0d: but even if you have only 4 cores on an i5, your toy language will probably perform well enough to use it for casual programming
2019-04-12T20:31:40Z z0d: even if your language is single threaded
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2019-04-12T20:38:27Z aeth: z0d: Sort of. But if we had 500 GHz computers with 100x the single-threaded speed as 2008 computers, we'd be writing such languages in a very different, less efficient way and no one would notice or care.
2019-04-12T20:39:05Z z0d: sure
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2019-04-12T21:56:21Z jcowan: We also can do monadic as well as template formatting; it's SRFI 159, quite portable, and part of R7RS-large
2019-04-12T21:56:38Z jcowan: (soon perhaps to be replaced by SRFI 156, WG2 vote permitting)
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2019-04-13T11:28:14Z amz3: I split the specification into two specification:
2019-04-13T11:28:16Z amz3: https://github.com/scheme-live/ordered-key-value-store
2019-04-13T11:28:24Z amz3: https://github.com/scheme-live/generic-tuple-store-database
2019-04-13T11:28:37Z amz3: and I choosed generator to represent streams
2019-04-13T11:29:06Z amz3: I am working on getting together a sample r7rs implementation
2019-04-13T11:29:59Z amz3: for both spec
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2019-04-13T12:08:18Z amz3: rudybot is gone?!
2019-04-13T12:08:49Z z0d: no idea
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2019-04-13T15:39:44Z z0d: amz3: did you mirror readscheme into its own github page?
2019-04-13T15:39:55Z amz3: z0d: yes, why?
2019-04-13T15:40:45Z z0d: I just found it by chance. readscheme.org seems to be down
2019-04-13T15:41:35Z z0d: so we have a backup. thanks :->
2019-04-13T15:41:44Z wasamasa: a bunch actually
2019-04-13T15:42:00Z wasamasa: I like the idea of rebuilding it the static blog generator way
2019-04-13T15:42:13Z amz3: I agree
2019-04-13T15:42:18Z amz3: it would be nice to have a feed too
2019-04-13T15:42:27Z amz3: also it missing recent scheme workshop papers
2019-04-13T15:42:43Z wasamasa: yeah and you could easily add these by doing a PR to a github repository or so
2019-04-13T15:43:11Z wasamasa: ikiwiki looks like a tried and true solution for this, but you could obviously bikeshed for a scheme solution
2019-04-13T15:43:48Z ng0: amz3: idk if you need it, but I have a full backup of readscheme.org iirc
2019-04-13T15:44:06Z ng0: timestamp oct 3 2018
2019-04-13T15:44:40Z ng0: disksize 773MiB
2019-04-13T15:45:18Z ng0: ftp at least, i did not care for the rest
2019-04-13T15:45:59Z amz3: ng0: I have a backup too at https://github.com/scheme-live/library.readscheme.org
2019-04-13T15:46:46Z ng0: ok
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2019-04-13T15:52:30Z TCZ: is it scheme convention to use meaningless variable names
2019-04-13T15:52:43Z TCZ: like a b c
2019-04-13T15:52:47Z wasamasa: nope
2019-04-13T15:53:10Z TCZ: ok
2019-04-13T15:53:17Z TCZ: thats good
2019-04-13T15:54:11Z wasamasa: there's like a single family of programming languages where this would be considered good, the APL/J/K kind
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2019-04-13T16:21:04Z nisstyre: wasamasa: is J worth learning?
2019-04-13T16:21:14Z nisstyre: or should I just learn Julia or whatever
2019-04-13T16:21:23Z wasamasa: one of them for sure
2019-04-13T16:21:33Z wasamasa: just to understand how to do efficient array processing
2019-04-13T16:21:34Z nisstyre: I would need a special keyboard for APL
2019-04-13T16:21:38Z nisstyre: yeah for sure
2019-04-13T16:21:41Z wasamasa: or a special emacs mode
2019-04-13T16:21:42Z nisstyre: I really want to learn that
2019-04-13T16:21:42Z TCZ: haha
2019-04-13T16:21:45Z nisstyre: Haskell has a library
2019-04-13T16:21:48Z nisstyre: repa
2019-04-13T16:21:49Z wasamasa: loke wrote one for GNU APL
2019-04-13T16:22:11Z nisstyre: wasamasa: I sadly use vim
2019-04-13T16:22:12Z z0d: just learn J instead of APL
2019-04-13T16:22:15Z nisstyre: I can't unlearn it
2019-04-13T16:22:22Z wasamasa: or K
2019-04-13T16:22:31Z nisstyre: I've never heard of K before
2019-04-13T16:22:33Z wasamasa: J's implementation has been open-sourced, for K there's kona
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2019-04-13T16:22:44Z wasamasa: if you want to be scared, look at their C sources :D
2019-04-13T16:22:48Z nisstyre: let's create L
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2019-04-13T16:22:55Z nisstyre: rewrite of K in Rust
2019-04-13T16:22:58Z Zipheir: K++
2019-04-13T16:23:09Z TCZ: ElLang
2019-04-13T16:23:13Z wasamasa: well, rust is pretty shit for their unique coding style
2019-04-13T16:23:19Z nisstyre: hahaha
2019-04-13T16:23:23Z wasamasa: just look at the sources and you'll understand what I mean
2019-04-13T16:23:32Z nisstyre: yeah I get the sense that it was created by people with more experience in academia
2019-04-13T16:23:37Z nisstyre: than in actually writing code
2019-04-13T16:23:45Z wasamasa: it's as if they tried to code-golf everything
2019-04-13T16:24:11Z wasamasa: the motivation is that less code takes less space in your head and is easier to maintain
2019-04-13T16:24:14Z nisstyre: the easiest language I've ever used is Scheme
2019-04-13T16:24:19Z nisstyre: as in, it doesn't get in my way
2019-04-13T16:24:22Z z0d: wasamasa: that already fails with Haskell
2019-04-13T16:24:47Z nisstyre: my Haskell inevitably ends up looking like some crazy mathematician wrote it
2019-04-13T16:24:58Z nisstyre: after several rounds of refactoring shit with . and <$>
2019-04-13T16:25:40Z TCZ: nisstyre have you tried squeak/pharo
2019-04-13T16:25:50Z nisstyre: TCZ: I have, but I couldn't find any reason to keep using it
2019-04-13T16:25:53Z nisstyre: I love the idea of it though
2019-04-13T16:26:06Z nisstyre: I learned datalog the other day
2019-04-13T16:26:09Z nisstyre: that was fun
2019-04-13T16:26:13Z nisstyre: no clue what I would use it for
2019-04-13T16:26:19Z Zipheir: z0d: Bad Haskell, maybe.  The kind with gratuitous point-free code.
2019-04-13T16:26:50Z nisstyre: datalog embedded in other languages could be useful though
2019-04-13T16:27:55Z nisstyre: this looks interesting https://github.com/travitch/datalog
2019-04-13T16:28:21Z nisstyre: looks dead though, but maybe it just hasn't needed any updates
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2019-04-13T16:29:53Z z0d: Zipheir: I think Haskell is inherently hard to read. you'll have to spend a lot of time to be comfortable reading every Haskell style
2019-04-13T16:30:23Z nisstyre: yeah there's not one style people use, unlike Python or whatever
2019-04-13T16:30:34Z z0d: well, compared to e.g. Python, where even if you never programmed in it, you can just look at a random source and have a pretty good chance understanding it
2019-04-13T16:30:36Z nisstyre: you will see different uses of indentation and braces
2019-04-13T16:30:58Z nisstyre: and you'll see advanced uses of libraries like generics, template haskell, lens, etc
2019-04-13T16:31:38Z nisstyre: I think lens heavy code ends up being hard to read sometimes
2019-04-13T16:32:09Z Zipheir: I agree, the ML languages are difficult to read and not easy to parse.
2019-04-13T16:32:41Z nisstyre: features like -fwarn-incomplete-patterns are awesome though
2019-04-13T16:32:47Z nisstyre: and you would never see that in most languages
2019-04-13T16:32:58Z nisstyre: prevents tons of runtime errors
2019-04-13T16:33:04Z Zipheir: It's a very advanced language.
2019-04-13T16:33:34Z nisstyre: I think OCaml is probably more friendly to people from other backgrounds
2019-04-13T16:33:40Z nisstyre: and has many of the basic features Haskell does
2019-04-13T16:34:39Z rain1: yeah, OCaml is great
2019-04-13T16:35:07Z wasamasa: I find SML not bad to read
2019-04-13T16:35:18Z wasamasa: takes some time getting used to, but the basic language is pretty simple
2019-04-13T16:36:40Z nisstyre: I think the next "ML-ish" language I'll learn will be Idris
2019-04-13T16:38:28Z Zipheir: Idris is interesting, although it looks even less readable than Haskell.
2019-04-13T16:38:35Z tolja: I've been doing prolog lately, seems nice so far
2019-04-13T16:40:26Z nisstyre: tolja: I was learning a bit of Datalog and it's neat but I have no use for it
2019-04-13T16:41:58Z Zipheir: Minikanren!
2019-04-13T16:44:37Z nisstyre: Zipheir: I actually have a copy of TRS somewhere...
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2019-04-13T17:07:04Z names: choiboi X-Scale ohama szgyg Riastradh edgar-rft webshinra scroll2_ ByronJohnson hive-mind ArneBab pie___ lavaflow Guest40074 defanor amoe em blt rain1 gko Zipheir fowlduck gf3 turbofail deuill sodastab johnjay kjak aspect dkrm DerGuteMoritz buhman evhan averell proksi pflanze m1dnight_ sudden teej weinholt physpi ski jim hugo dmiles GGMethos greaser|q copec nckx drot yumh keja fiddlerwoaroof dieggsy drewc ec dpk cibs groovy2shoes Wojciech_K caltelt gwatt
2019-04-13T17:07:04Z names: balkamos edw vyzo englishm profan greghendershott mats duncanm Duns_Scrotus rich_ joast dan64 Kooda ober ozzloy kbtr ecraven dsp rann cky vxe M_D_K asumu gnomon fizzie Kryo z0d eMBee tolja clog stux|work davl SirDayBat jackhill friscosam wasamasa adhoc abbe alphor_ Blkt iskander mrm rotty mario-goulart scal ft foof samth kilimanjaro kwmiebach ventonegro cross fadein comstar eagleflo nisstyre pchrist snits LeoNerd
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2019-04-13T17:09:33Z tolja: It's too early to say if i might use prolog for something useful someday
2019-04-13T17:09:46Z tolja: I like sql a lot so there's at least a chance
2019-04-13T17:11:51Z Zipheir: It's a mind-opening language, so probably worth knowing regardless of utility.
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2019-04-13T17:12:25Z Zipheir: "A language that doesn't change the way you think isn't worth knowing." --Perlis, I think
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2019-04-13T17:16:59Z nisstyre: yep
2019-04-13T17:17:19Z nisstyre: I also recommend learning some Forth
2019-04-13T17:17:24Z nisstyre: and even C
2019-04-13T17:17:32Z nisstyre: people hate on C, but it's worth learning
2019-04-13T17:18:11Z nisstyre: if you've never had the experience of valgrind complaining about accessing uninitialized memory and then you trying to figure out where your off by one error is
2019-04-13T17:18:14Z nisstyre: then you're missing out
2019-04-13T17:18:15Z z0d: Factor is also cool (it's in the Forth family)
2019-04-13T17:18:34Z nisstyre: z0d: I learned RPL (Reverse Polish Lisp) on an HP 50G
2019-04-13T17:18:38Z nisstyre: which is also similar to them
2019-04-13T17:19:14Z nisstyre: I use factor to do my taxes lmao because it's so nice for tabulating stuff
2019-04-13T17:20:17Z z0d: the langauge?
2019-04-13T17:21:38Z nisstyre: factor-vm
2019-04-13T17:21:44Z nisstyre: I open it up and start calculating stuff
2019-04-13T17:21:50Z nisstyre: it's a great calculator
2019-04-13T17:21:54Z z0d: :->
2019-04-13T17:22:27Z z0d: I'm more comfortable with infix
2019-04-13T17:22:48Z z0d: or prefix
2019-04-13T17:23:09Z nisstyre: the advantage of postfix is that you don't have to worry about parentheses
2019-04-13T17:23:15Z z0d: yep
2019-04-13T17:23:24Z nisstyre: same with prefix I guess
2019-04-13T17:23:32Z nisstyre: but not with variable arity functions
2019-04-13T17:23:47Z z0d: but you have to parse your stuff into postfix
2019-04-13T17:23:52Z z0d: so it's not entirely free
2019-04-13T17:23:59Z z0d: brainwork
2019-04-13T17:24:16Z nisstyre: the only hard part is avoiding stack underflows
2019-04-13T17:24:25Z nisstyre: i.e. 2 3 + +
2019-04-13T17:24:40Z nisstyre: can get tricky if you aren't keeping track of what's on the stack
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2019-04-13T17:26:58Z Zipheir: Speaking of postfix, Joy is very interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_(programming_language)
2019-04-13T17:27:49Z Zipheir: Unfortunately the language site is little more than a landing page now https://www.latrobe.edu.au/humanities/research/research-projects/past-projects/joy-programming-language
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2019-04-13T17:44:28Z z0d: anyone tried the Urbit languages?
2019-04-13T17:45:33Z rain1: yeah
2019-04-13T17:45:36Z rain1: its bad
2019-04-13T17:45:47Z rain1: used up gigabytes of memory and then crashed
2019-04-13T17:45:55Z z0d: is it similar to any other language?
2019-04-13T17:46:04Z rain1: its fake
2019-04-13T17:46:11Z rain1: it doesn't actually do anything
2019-04-13T17:46:14Z rain1: its not really a language
2019-04-13T17:46:23Z rain1: the whole thing is a trick to get attention and investors
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2019-04-13T17:47:02Z z0d: so it's Java?
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2019-04-13T17:59:19Z Zipheir: Hah.
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2019-04-13T18:01:49Z Zipheir: Urbit also seems to be the work of an alt-right loon.
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2019-04-13T18:26:54Z amz3: z0d: x)
2019-04-13T18:34:20Z ecraven: johnjay: my limited experience is that chez is amazingly fast overall, not just in the benchmarks
2019-04-13T18:34:30Z ecraven: whoever told you that might not actually know much about chez ;)
2019-04-13T18:35:25Z ecraven: now chez is certainly less dynamic or interactive than other Schemes, but performance-wise, most systems are just a bit slower (that's the trade-off, it seems)
2019-04-13T18:35:47Z ecraven: for example, introspection in MIT/GNU Scheme is much better and more dynamic changes are possible than in chez.
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2019-04-13T18:56:46Z jcowan: The original Joy site is mirrored at http://www.kevinalbrecht.com/code/joy-mirror/joy.html
2019-04-13T18:57:27Z jcowan: However, my (partial) Joy implementation in Scheme is at http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan/joy.ss
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2019-04-13T19:07:47Z jcowan: Kona (K implementation) is dog slow
2019-04-13T19:08:06Z jcowan used to work for one of the two companies that actually has access to the sekrit K interpreter
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2019-04-13T19:18:15Z wasamasa: used?
2019-04-13T19:18:29Z wasamasa: so you saw the mythical 4 SLOC text editor written in K?
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2019-04-13T19:25:46Z jcowan: no, I think that's the other company
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2019-04-13T19:28:10Z jcowan: I worked for 1010data, which licenses K version 3.  as opposed to Kx Systems.
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2019-04-13T20:37:22Z z0d: what's so great about K?
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2019-04-13T20:42:54Z wasamasa: it follows J
2019-04-13T20:48:17Z aeth: LMNOP is a better language.
2019-04-13T20:49:30Z z0d: do people use Edwin or mostly Emacs?
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2019-04-13T21:15:16Z aeth: z0d: GNU Emacs is near-universal in the Lisps.
2019-04-13T21:15:25Z aeth: Racket might have some using DrRacket
2019-04-13T21:18:26Z aeth: From what I've seen, a majority use GNU Emacs and a minority use vim and there's a lot of network effects in terms of tools behind that.
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2019-04-13T22:21:23Z jcowan: z0d: aeth: and some troglodytes like me use `ex`, with occasional switches to vi-mode to bounce on the % key.
2019-04-13T22:21:38Z jcowan: (Actually there are no troglodytes like me, just me.)
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2019-04-13T22:43:04Z Zipheir: Some in the CHICKEN world use 'ma', IIRC http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/ma/ma.html
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2019-04-13T23:58:20Z pjb: jcowan: I don't use ex, but ed. Which one is higher level?
2019-04-13T23:58:31Z pjb: Worse, I implement ed!
2019-04-13T23:58:51Z jcowan: Ex trades a bit of standardness for a bit of convenience, like prompting by default.
2019-04-13T23:59:00Z pjb: First time, in Fortran on vax. Then I was hooked on it! :-)
2019-04-13T23:59:32Z jcowan: Ratfor, I take it.
2019-04-14T00:12:21Z aeth: That reminds me the quote on ed only reporting ? as the errors... "Note the consistent user interface and error reportage. Ed is generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm the novice with verbosity." Classic document. https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
2019-04-14T00:13:16Z pjb: aeth: this was the most efficient thing to do when you worked on teletypes at 75 b/s!
2019-04-14T00:14:14Z pjb: 7 character per second.  ? CR LF would take half a second to transmit, and even more to move the carriage and paper.  Anything more would be excruriating!
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2019-04-14T03:27:28Z jcowan: I don't go back that far, only to 10 char/sec.
2019-04-14T03:42:22Z aeth: I just remember the 90s when you could actually read scrolling text and didn't have to do | less to read it
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2019-04-14T06:44:17Z ecraven: I recently read an ebook on ed mastery, surprisingly relevant, ed has some really nice commands (though I don't remember which exactly now) that I thought I might even use in emacs
2019-04-14T06:44:29Z ecraven: same as sam (the plan9 thing), its x command seems very interesting
2019-04-14T06:49:17Z johnjay: how so
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2019-04-14T06:58:02Z z0d: speaking of old times... http://emacshorrors.com/posts/baud.html
2019-04-14T06:58:16Z wasamasa: I wonder whether to hand over that blog to someone else
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2019-04-14T07:15:18Z z0d: I guess it's too late for Emacs to ditch the idea that everything is a terminal(?)
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2019-04-14T10:45:09Z pjb: I'm tempted to make a bug report about the use of baud vs bit-per-second…
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2019-04-14T11:37:12Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/ySW0wLAy substall is like version with foldr or foldl
2019-04-14T11:38:06Z TCZ: or maybe something different o.O
2019-04-14T11:38:10Z wasamasa: lol, whining about what idiomatic scheme style is, yet dropping spaces between a symbol and a paren
2019-04-14T11:38:19Z TCZ: -_-
2019-04-14T11:38:52Z TCZ: wasamasa maybe someone hacked my account yesterday
2019-04-14T11:38:57Z wasamasa: of course
2019-04-14T11:39:02Z TCZ: maybe it wasnt me or today its not me
2019-04-14T11:39:07Z wasamasa: how would you know it was yesterday then?
2019-04-14T11:39:12Z TCZ: uhm
2019-04-14T11:39:26Z wasamasa: see, I'm not even trying to be sherlock, but it's super obvious
2019-04-14T11:39:50Z TCZ: iwasnt whinning only asked
2019-04-14T11:40:07Z TCZ: because found some those shortnamed params
2019-04-14T11:40:12Z TCZ: in bokz
2019-04-14T11:40:31Z TCZ: ok
2019-04-14T11:40:56Z TCZ: smalltalk is better, scheme sucks...
2019-04-14T11:41:05Z TCZ: ha
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2019-04-14T11:44:10Z TCZ: im googling about hipocrisy
2019-04-14T11:44:32Z wasamasa: #scheme isn't your personal blog
2019-04-14T11:45:47Z TCZ: ok
2019-04-14T11:46:14Z TCZ: bye
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2019-04-14T12:57:59Z aeth: Whose personal blog is this, then?
2019-04-14T12:58:56Z aeth: I guess either Scheme creator could probably get away with blogging here
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2019-04-14T13:14:58Z amz3: I made a list of scheme ffi libraries, let me know if I missed something https://github.com/scheme-live/memory-view#memory-view
2019-04-14T13:15:42Z wasamasa: kawa has interop with java, so...
2019-04-14T13:16:05Z wasamasa: https://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Objects-Classes-and-Modules.html
2019-04-14T13:18:30Z ecraven: wasamasa: do you know any language with nicer interop with java than kawa? from all the ones I looked at, kawa seems to be the best for direct interoperability
2019-04-14T13:18:46Z wasamasa: I prefer clojure's interop syntax
2019-04-14T13:18:58Z wasamasa: well, except interop with classes, that's just confusing in clojure
2019-04-14T13:19:05Z wasamasa: kawa beats it easily there
2019-04-14T13:19:44Z wasamasa: but overall I'm leaning towards kawa for non-work stuff because it's a lot less big and simpler
2019-04-14T13:20:00Z wasamasa: kind of funny if you consider clojure's author does talks like "Simple made easy"
2019-04-14T13:21:52Z amz3: Sorry in advance for the dubious question, but according to you what is the most advanced C Foreign Function Interface in Scheme implementations?
2019-04-14T13:22:53Z wasamasa: I haven't tried any besides CHICKEN, but I quite like that foreign binding can be 100% scheme
2019-04-14T13:24:35Z amz3: to be honest I would like to restart works on a portable C FFI. I looked around for some background conversation about that subject, but I could not find any.
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2019-04-14T13:31:14Z ecraven: amz3: chez's is really nice, imho
2019-04-14T13:31:32Z ecraven: the only real comparison I have is MIT's, which is not as nice, in my very unqualified opinion
2019-04-14T13:32:06Z ecraven: I like that chez's doesn't need a C compiler to work
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2019-04-14T13:47:08Z amz3: ah! I forgot about mit-scheme
2019-04-14T13:48:21Z amz3: it does only support win32
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2019-04-14T13:53:19Z wasamasa: that doesn't sound right
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2019-04-14T14:03:53Z z0d: I use it on Linux
2019-04-14T14:12:12Z ecraven: amz3: right now, it supports a lot of systems *except* for windows
2019-04-14T14:12:23Z ecraven: chibi has an ffi too
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2019-04-14T14:52:19Z amz3: I don't ffi documentation in mit scheme documentation that is about linux, see by yourself https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/
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2019-04-14T15:03:06Z amz3: +see
2019-04-14T15:03:18Z amz3: anyway, I just procrastinating, I should be doing something else
2019-04-14T15:03:32Z amz3: +am
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2019-04-14T16:07:25Z ecraven: amz3: look more: https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ffi/
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2019-04-14T18:37:57Z TCZ: #scheme is not my personal blog
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2019-04-14T18:47:36Z Zipheir: A somewhat ironic comment.
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2019-04-15T16:27:48Z ecraven: how do literals for syntax-rules interact with libraries?
2019-04-15T16:28:12Z ecraven: i.e. if I have a literal foo, but don't import or export it, will it match a literal symbol foo in another library? it seems it does not, in chez :-/
2019-04-15T16:28:23Z ecraven: so I'd need to define and export it, just to have it match as a literal in syntax-rules
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2019-04-15T16:38:44Z gwatt: ecraven: Actually, in Chez you only need to define and export the literal if you want to use the macro from the repl
2019-04-15T16:45:15Z rain1: surely the symbol needs exported so that it can be imported by modules that want to use that macro ?
2019-04-15T16:45:25Z rain1: like if you export COND you also need to export ELSE right?
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2019-04-15T16:51:54Z rain1: and =>
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2019-04-15T17:19:08Z ecraven: gwatt: ah, that might be it
2019-04-15T17:19:28Z ecraven: still quite a bother :-/
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2019-04-15T17:58:58Z lisbeths: So I am teaching my math professor scheme but he has three conditions
2019-04-15T17:59:04Z lisbeths: one is that left paren is [
2019-04-15T17:59:09Z lisbeths: anotehr is that right paren is }
2019-04-15T17:59:19Z lisbeths: and the last is that lists are delimited by , instead of just space
2019-04-15T17:59:31Z lisbeths: And I was hoping someone could help me write a macro that makes scheme do this
2019-04-15T18:01:27Z gnomon: can we offer a macro to replace your math professor instead
2019-04-15T18:02:00Z lisbeths: nil
2019-04-15T18:02:45Z rain1: I can help you do this with racket
2019-04-15T18:03:19Z lisbeths: That should be suitable
2019-04-15T18:03:56Z johnjay: ... what?
2019-04-15T18:04:12Z lisbeths: johnjay: who are you asking?
2019-04-15T18:04:58Z johnjay: i guess my first question is how will it benefit your professor to use scheme
2019-04-15T18:05:11Z johnjay: other than proof systems what's the overlap of scheme and math?
2019-04-15T18:05:12Z lisbeths: It will benfit me not him
2019-04-15T18:05:20Z johnjay: why
2019-04-15T18:05:37Z lisbeths: Becuase I know deep mathematics from within computer science but not from math
2019-04-15T18:06:47Z johnjay: i'm not sure what that means but ok
2019-04-15T18:07:05Z lisbeths: Well I am fairly certain if you describe an algorithm in english I can implement it in a computer language
2019-04-15T18:07:11Z lisbeths: but I can not necessarily implement that algorithm in math
2019-04-15T18:08:26Z gwatt: ecraven: yeah, it's not great.
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2019-04-15T18:09:18Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/95cd37054e8f you can parse it like this. will need to add support for numbers and strings later
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2019-04-15T18:09:53Z pjb: lisbeths: I'd be wary on the good will of this math professor…
2019-04-15T18:09:56Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/nand-lang then yoeu can implement a racket #lang that just does this type of parsing and then hands off to racket
2019-04-15T18:10:04Z lisbeths: rain1: let me test it on my machine
2019-04-15T18:10:24Z rain1: similar to how nand-lang is done, but you don't need as much code (you don't need a transform step or a runtime lib)
2019-04-15T18:15:50Z lisbeths: rain https://hastebin.com/edaritifug.coffeescript
2019-04-15T18:16:45Z pjb: lisbeths: in Common Lisp: https://pastebin.com/KwA27e1n
2019-04-15T18:17:19Z rain1: you can't paste it into the REPL, it needs to be saved into a file
2019-04-15T18:18:22Z lisbeths: pjb: that's kind of what I want except I want to read from stdin instead of reading from a string and then immediately execute the result
2019-04-15T18:19:16Z Zipheir: ... Everything about this [foo, bar} Scheme story is weird.
2019-04-15T18:19:29Z lisbeths: I don't see what's that weird about it
2019-04-15T18:22:04Z Zipheir: "I would like to learn French under the conditions that 'le/la' are replaced with 'moo/meow'"
2019-04-15T18:23:42Z daviid: and if you put a commer after every word
2019-04-15T18:24:02Z daviid: *comma
2019-04-15T18:24:17Z gnomon: c'est, pas, çi, bizarre,, en, fait
2019-04-15T18:25:13Z daviid: only if the comma symbol is vertically flipped first
2019-04-15T18:25:35Z lisbeths: basically trying to do something like this: https://hastebin.com/eyuzagizuf.sql
2019-04-15T18:26:51Z gnomon: D'accord︐, ça︐ c'est︐ bizarre
2019-04-15T18:27:09Z gnomon: U+FE10 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL COMMA
2019-04-15T18:27:13Z Zipheir: Now 'ça' looks wrong...
2019-04-15T18:27:48Z gnomon: _That's_ what looks wrong!?
2019-04-15T18:27:56Z Zipheir: Sure :)
2019-04-15T18:31:26Z Zipheir: lisbeths: If someone wants to learn a Lisp, the syntax is a pill they'll have to swallow, professor or no.  It's just going to be harder if they get used to some weird custom syntax.
2019-04-15T18:31:41Z rain1: it's easy to implement this
2019-04-15T18:33:06Z Zipheir: Nice.  But it's a bad way to learn Scheme, imho.
2019-04-15T18:33:41Z daviid: maybe tht person is ( ) and space blind
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2019-04-15T18:36:22Z lisbeths: he hates parentheses
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2019-04-15T18:37:00Z lisbeths: pjb: your example of  (read-from-string "[Hello,world,how are you?,[1,2,3},4}") doesn't wrk in my racket repl
2019-04-15T18:37:03Z lisbeths: was it made for racket
2019-04-15T18:37:24Z daviid: lisbeths: use wisp
2019-04-15T18:38:13Z lisbeths: unable to locate package wisp
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2019-04-15T18:39:08Z daviid: here https://bitbucket.org/ArneBab/wisp
2019-04-15T18:39:51Z lisbeths: I don't know what that is
2019-04-15T18:40:06Z daviid: lisbeths: read ... watch ... https://archive.fosdem.org/2016/schedule/event/guilewisp/
2019-04-15T18:40:49Z lisbeths: I'm not really looking to turn lisp into python
2019-04-15T18:41:02Z daviid: well you are
2019-04-15T18:41:06Z lisbeths: well I am not
2019-04-15T18:41:10Z lisbeths: though I am not against the idea of it
2019-04-15T18:41:17Z rain1: I showed you how to do it
2019-04-15T18:41:34Z lisbeths: rain1: I need it to work in the repl as well
2019-04-15T18:42:32Z daviid: lisbeths: actually this link is a better start https://www.draketo.de/english/wisp
2019-04-15T18:43:03Z lisbeths: definitely not going to have my professor use wisp
2019-04-15T18:44:38Z Zipheir: daviid: That's an interesting idea.
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2019-04-15T18:44:53Z Zipheir: daviid: I imagine there will be some tough corner-cases though.
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2019-04-15T18:50:30Z daviid: Zipheir: I don't know, the first thing I do when I (very rarely) encounter wisp code is to turn it lisp code, I just mentioned it because it helps those who don't like the syntax ...
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2019-04-15T18:51:10Z lisbeths: got to logout
2019-04-15T18:51:18Z daviid: Zipheir: I am sure ArneBab will answer you, when time allows ...
2019-04-15T18:54:32Z pjb: lisbeths: Try: !lang common-lisp ?
2019-04-15T18:54:40Z pjb: lisbeths: jj
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2019-04-15T19:07:30Z Zipheir: daviid: Same here, I wouldn't use it personally, but an indent->sexp preprocessor is an idea nonetheless.  I was thinking of cases in which it would get weird, though, like `let-values : : : v1 v2 ...`
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2019-04-15T19:37:59Z daviid: Zipheir: the author will answer your doubt I guess, I'm really not interested in this, just pointing it exists ...
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2019-04-15T20:25:08Z johnjay: well to be fair the ( and ) do look visually similar
2019-04-15T20:25:24Z johnjay: but idt that replacing ) with & or } would matter
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2019-04-15T21:43:33Z amz3: o/
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2019-04-15T22:11:01Z Zipheir: amz3: o/
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2019-04-15T23:37:34Z johnjay: this wisp thing looks nice i've got toa dmit
2019-04-15T23:37:36Z johnjay: *admit
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2019-04-16T05:16:56Z aos: just got to the part on creating a lazy evaluator for scheme
2019-04-16T05:17:01Z aos: (in sicp)
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2019-04-16T05:17:18Z aos: this is amazing
2019-04-16T05:23:45Z rain1: yeah it rules!
2019-04-16T05:51:24Z johnjay: i read a blog post by steve yegge where he said scheme is great for teaching
2019-04-16T05:51:32Z johnjay: but because of that it can never rise to what it truly needs to be
2019-04-16T05:51:42Z johnjay: so... it rules in a way
2019-04-16T06:07:58Z wasamasa: he also compared it to an exotic sports car with no comfort extras
2019-04-16T06:08:35Z wasamasa: > Scheme is an exotic sports car. Fast. Manual transmission. No radio. Emacs Lisp is a 1984 Subaru GL 4WD: 'the car that's always in front of you.' Common Lisp is Howl's Moving Castle.
2019-04-16T06:09:58Z wasamasa: I only noticed now that the subaru has the same birth date as emacs: 1984
2019-04-16T06:10:46Z johnjay: whoa
2019-04-16T06:11:38Z wasamasa: the specs say it's slow, 55mph max
2019-04-16T06:11:42Z wasamasa: just like emacs :D
2019-04-16T06:11:47Z johnjay: howl's moving castle. lol
2019-04-16T06:11:59Z wasamasa: and ugly of course, but still fun to drive
2019-04-16T06:12:18Z wasamasa: a very apt comparison
2019-04-16T06:13:21Z wasamasa: > The Subaru was full of little engineering miracles its designers had baked in, including a third headlight behind the badge in the grille, all manner of handy little compartments inside, factory cupholders, and a windowshade over the rear cargo area, the first I’d ever seen this genius invention installed in a car.
2019-04-16T06:13:22Z johnjay: heh. i was trying to figure out from that post what lisp to embed in an snes emulator
2019-04-16T06:13:37Z johnjay: i don't want to embed Howl's moving castle into anything
2019-04-16T06:13:54Z wasamasa: well, ECL might just work
2019-04-16T06:14:13Z johnjay: yeah but i need to actually work with it first
2019-04-16T06:14:16Z wasamasa: so far I'm positively surprised about the few CL projects that are set up to compile to a standalone executable using it
2019-04-16T06:14:18Z johnjay: what is it used in already?
2019-04-16T06:14:54Z wasamasa: actual embedding, no idea
2019-04-16T06:15:16Z johnjay: that is odd... standalone executables are good aren't they
2019-04-16T06:15:24Z wasamasa: they're convenient
2019-04-16T06:15:52Z wasamasa: on an unix-style OS that is :D
2019-04-16T06:15:57Z razzy: where can i buy subaru?
2019-04-16T06:17:51Z johnjay: razzy: only by being reborn into another world and starting from zero
2019-04-16T06:22:05Z Zipheir: Yegge's is another in the long series of programming-language-as-automobile analogies that say ... something about the languages in question.
2019-04-16T06:26:22Z Zipheir: johnjay: Which post was that analogy from?  My search-fu fails me.
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2019-04-16T06:28:19Z wasamasa: I still like the elisp one
2019-04-16T06:28:28Z wasamasa: I copy-pasted it from stackoverflow, lol
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2019-04-16T06:30:11Z Zipheir: Heh, oh well.
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2019-04-16T06:35:19Z Zipheir: Here's Yegge in 2006 suggesting the Lisps (all of them!) need a BDFL http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
2019-04-16T06:36:12Z Zipheir: At least that's the conclusion he comes to, for some reason.
2019-04-16T06:40:12Z Zipheir: Funny how the reasoning "Things would be better if we had a dictator" is rightfully shamed AFK, but accepted as sober thought in the programming world...
2019-04-16T06:41:06Z ecraven: is it, though?
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2019-04-16T06:42:59Z johnjay: Zipheir: ah sorry i missed your comment
2019-04-16T06:43:16Z johnjay: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/01/pinocchio-problem.html
2019-04-16T06:43:38Z Zipheir: Maybe not.  It's mostly ranting bloggers like Stevey who ask for dictators anyway.
2019-04-16T06:43:50Z Zipheir: Aha.  ty, johnjay.
2019-04-16T06:44:06Z johnjay: The romans had a good system I think.
2019-04-16T06:44:32Z johnjay: Republicanism with democratic elements and once in awhile a dictator to handle emergencies.
2019-04-16T06:44:53Z johnjay: Kinda went south after Crassus died though
2019-04-16T06:47:22Z Zipheir: Heh.  When a problem is really in trouble, appoint an imperator with absolute power.
2019-04-16T06:47:28Z Zipheir: s/problem/project/
2019-04-16T06:47:53Z johnjay: and institute decimation for all units that fall behind schedule
2019-04-16T06:48:46Z johnjay: they could even makeup a stupid buzzword. it's "honorable development" !
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2019-04-16T06:55:14Z Zipheir: johnjay: Wow, this is a massive post.  I really have no idea where he's going with all of this.  Some sort of personal programming Nirvana, I guess.
2019-04-16T06:55:40Z johnjay: Zipheir: he concludes by saying he blogged for 2 extra hours from his usual 4
2019-04-16T06:55:55Z Zipheir: "type systems are for building hardware".  Um, OK.
2019-04-16T06:55:56Z johnjay: but seriously yes there is a point
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2019-04-16T07:00:56Z Zipheir: Yegge's a good writer, but this is one hell of an arrogant, ignorant statement: "Scheme has great promise, but suffers from the fatal flaw that it can never grow ... it has to stay small to keep its niche, which is in CS education."
2019-04-16T07:02:12Z ecraven: well, given that that niche has been lost, there's new opportunity now :P
2019-04-16T07:03:24Z rain1: he's mistaken
2019-04-16T07:03:28Z rain1: schemes problem isn't that it's not bloated
2019-04-16T07:08:27Z Zipheir: IIUC standard Scheme stayed tiny because the designers had good taste and because the community was standards-averse.
2019-04-16T07:08:56Z Zipheir: Not to maintain some bogus niche, as Yegge puts it.
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2019-04-16T07:22:49Z aeth: Portable Scheme's problem is that it's too small to be useful so every Schemer is fragmented.
2019-04-16T07:23:10Z aeth: It would be like if programs were tied to one Linux distro.
2019-04-16T07:25:03Z ecraven: well, r7rs-large is meant to solve this, isn't it?
2019-04-16T07:25:26Z aeth: Scheme's strength is that its API is consistent and guessable, unlike e.g. Common Lisp where you have (nth 1 list) vs. (aref array 1) and (gethash :foo hash-table) vs. (getf plist :foo)
2019-04-16T07:25:59Z ecraven: aeth: if this is so, how come vector-length doesn't correspond to list-length?
2019-04-16T07:26:12Z ecraven: also pair-ref vs. car
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2019-04-16T07:32:44Z aeth: ecraven: It's not entirely consistent, but it is consistent in its inconsistency, which is list-favoritism
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2019-04-16T07:33:20Z ecraven: to be fair, it didn't start out needing to be compatible with multiple mutually-incompatible lisp dialects :P
2019-04-16T07:34:41Z Zipheir: aeth: R6RS could have fixed some of the fragmentation if people had used it, but there was too much MUSTard.
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2019-04-16T07:41:03Z Zipheir: Implementation diversity is still preferable to one-game-in-town situations like GHC, or, worse yet, single-implementation languages controlled by a BDFL. *shudder*
2019-04-16T07:48:15Z aeth: Scheme goes beyond "implementation diversity", though, because for any non-trivial program I write it specifically to an implementation because I have to.
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2019-04-16T07:55:27Z Zipheir: Things should improve as R7RS-large progresses.
2019-04-16T07:56:40Z z0d: I think that R6RS has a very different philosophy than R5RS. R5RS tries to be minimal, while R6RS tries to be more practical/tries to aim higher
2019-04-16T07:58:02Z z0d: and that further fragmented the community
2019-04-16T07:58:54Z Zipheir: R6 tried to fix everything at once and had a lot of very strict requirements, from my not-at-all-in-depth reading of it.
2019-04-16T08:00:56Z Zipheir: It's definitely quite a jump from R5.
2019-04-16T08:01:40Z rain1: being able to run code on multiple schemes is still not possible
2019-04-16T08:01:54Z rain1: the standards don't seem to help with this
2019-04-16T08:02:22Z ecraven: rain1: there are a bunch of projects that run code on multiple schemes, you just have to provide small shims for the different implementations
2019-04-16T08:02:59Z Zipheir: "On multiple schemes"--concurrently??
2019-04-16T08:03:28Z ecraven: well, just look at the benchmarks. that code runs on quite a few schemes, necessitating just a bit of "prelude" for each
2019-04-16T08:03:33Z ecraven: the code itself is exactly the same
2019-04-16T08:03:42Z aeth: ecraven: those are specifically benchmarking standard behavior, though
2019-04-16T08:03:45Z ecraven: I'm not saying it's easy or fun, but it certainly isn't impossible
2019-04-16T08:04:05Z Zipheir: Most of the SRFI reference implementations are portable.
2019-04-16T08:04:24Z ecraven: aeth: well, I have code that runs on chez and mit. of course it needs different code for loading, but most srfis I need are there for both (though how you actually load them is different)
2019-04-16T08:04:39Z ecraven: things like akku are making this easier too, I believe
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2019-04-16T08:06:16Z Zipheir: Example: the SRFI-135 reference impl. runs on pretty much any R7RS scheme, and it's an extensive immutable string library that isn't particularly trivial.
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2019-04-16T08:06:39Z Zipheir: So the "only trivial Scheme is portable" thing is folklore.
2019-04-16T08:07:57Z wasamasa: r7rs indeed helps
2019-04-16T08:08:14Z ecraven: especially a portable library syntax
2019-04-16T08:08:27Z wasamasa: I implemented MAL to run on seven different systems
2019-04-16T08:08:32Z ecraven: now if r7rs specified how to actually find the library files, that would be even nicer, then you could use the *same* files for different schemes
2019-04-16T08:08:37Z Zipheir: Yeah, R7RS libraries are really nice.
2019-04-16T08:08:45Z wasamasa: nah, C compilers don't either
2019-04-16T08:09:04Z wasamasa: just leave things to the build system
2019-04-16T08:09:33Z aeth: C and C++ aren't models of what to do with build systems, they're sort of... the odd ones out as far as pain involved for building and libraries go
2019-04-16T08:10:02Z aeth: Just about everyone else has a CPAN-inspired system by now. Unfortunately for Scheme, it's implementation-specific
2019-04-16T08:10:17Z ecraven: how does cpan work?
2019-04-16T08:10:26Z wasamasa: terribly
2019-04-16T08:10:32Z Zipheir: Hah.
2019-04-16T08:10:39Z ecraven: or do you just mean "load random stuff from the internet" in general?
2019-04-16T08:10:44Z Zipheir: We demand a terrible package system!
2019-04-16T08:10:47Z wasamasa: last time I tried I ended up installing two extra package managers
2019-04-16T08:10:54Z ecraven: the more the merrier!
2019-04-16T08:11:12Z wasamasa: even JavaScript is better than that
2019-04-16T08:11:32Z ecraven: really? npm is better than <insert random package manager>?
2019-04-16T08:11:32Z aeth: CPAN's bad for the same reason roads in old cities in Europe are bad. You got them first, so everyone else can learn from your mistakes.
2019-04-16T08:11:43Z wasamasa: cpanplus and some other one
2019-04-16T08:12:45Z aeth: Technically, according to Wikipedia, CPAN was CTAN inspired, so... TeX started the trend.
2019-04-16T08:13:08Z wasamasa: well, not much, with JavaScript you're encouraged to install one made by Facebook
2019-04-16T08:13:48Z wasamasa: but it's always optional
2019-04-16T08:14:08Z wasamasa: until some project starts using features exclusive to it
2019-04-16T08:14:33Z wasamasa: there emacs situation is bad, too
2019-04-16T08:15:00Z wasamasa: there are package managers predating and succeeding the official one
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2019-04-16T08:16:42Z wasamasa: I helped with a tool to make building packages easier, something pretty silly considering it's as simple as downloading it and its dependencies from sources, then byte-compiling everything
2019-04-16T08:17:10Z wasamasa: maybe making a tarball for multiple file packages
2019-04-16T08:17:23Z ecraven: have you found any solution to the general problem of just pulling random stuff from github and running it on your machine?
2019-04-16T08:17:28Z wasamasa: no
2019-04-16T08:17:39Z wasamasa: it's a human problem
2019-04-16T08:17:44Z ecraven: maybe there just *is* no solution (that doesn't incur cost I'm not willing to pay) to that..
2019-04-16T08:18:10Z ecraven: well, at the end of the day, I just want to install the newest version of ivy in emacs, but I *don't* want to verify the source code myself :-/
2019-04-16T08:18:35Z wasamasa: you don't have anyone doing actual packaging work, such as knowing the project's release cycle, fixing questionable things and reviewing it for bad stuff
2019-04-16T08:18:37Z rain1: a package manager like nix or guix could be the solution, but i found they were not perfect implementations yet
2019-04-16T08:18:42Z rain1: e.g. nix only runs on nixos
2019-04-16T08:18:59Z wasamasa: that's a technical, not social solution
2019-04-16T08:19:03Z ecraven: rain1: I don't think they would help much, they don't have the manpower to do actual packaging, as wasamasa said
2019-04-16T08:19:20Z wasamasa: see Debian or Arch for an example
2019-04-16T08:19:25Z ecraven: the problem is, no-one actually *checks* what people put on github
2019-04-16T08:19:42Z ecraven: so no-one notices malicious code in the default workflow (which is just push from github to my machine)
2019-04-16T08:20:00Z wasamasa: they're on opposite ends of the spectrum, yet far better than just downloading the sources and building yourself
2019-04-16T08:20:05Z ecraven: but as wasamasa said, that is not a technical problem, but a social one... (until an AI can tell malicious code from other code)
2019-04-16T08:20:35Z wasamasa: things like flatpak and snap even work actively against the social solution
2019-04-16T08:20:52Z aeth: well, any social problem can be solved with sufficiently advanced technology (that AI you mention)
2019-04-16T08:21:05Z Zipheir: Also cavalier rebasing and squashing which might hide nasty stuff.
2019-04-16T08:21:40Z wasamasa: maybe we should let an AI end bikeshedding on emacs-devel
2019-04-16T08:22:10Z aeth: Usually the bad code is obvious in hindight because it's a random "C86E5743719CA9E6D3E335DD5A" string in the middle of the code or whatever.
2019-04-16T08:22:45Z wasamasa: have you seen the latest gem mishap?
2019-04-16T08:23:06Z wasamasa: it was hidden by looking like a clownflare cookie
2019-04-16T08:23:36Z aeth: link?
2019-04-16T08:23:37Z rain1: yeah takes a lot of man power to review all the code we transitively depend on
2019-04-16T08:23:42Z wasamasa: well, the eval bit gave it away
2019-04-16T08:23:50Z rain1: this is a huge issue for NPM and ruby gem
2019-04-16T08:23:59Z aeth: rain1: I tend to just reject dependencies with too many dependencies
2019-04-16T08:24:04Z rain1: yeah we kind of have to just trust people at some point, like we can't really verify that the chez scheme boot files don't have a virus in them
2019-04-16T08:24:28Z aeth: rain1: once you have enough dependencies-of-dependencies it becomes a chore to even review the *metadata* like licenses for incompatibility
2019-04-16T08:25:06Z wasamasa: there's at least one business doing nothing else but reviewing dependencies, alerting you when finding bugs and issuing patches
2019-04-16T08:25:15Z aeth: for Scheme?
2019-04-16T08:25:33Z wasamasa: for Python, Ruby, Node
2019-04-16T08:26:29Z wasamasa: I'll give you a LWN link later
2019-04-16T08:27:19Z aeth: We here rely on security by obscurity because we're not targets but we also don't have the security resources that the target languages have.
2019-04-16T08:27:51Z aeth: Or does anyone here have a truly secure application with nontrivial dependencies?
2019-04-16T08:28:47Z wasamasa: djb
2019-04-16T08:30:12Z rain1: well if you take into account the OS platform our software runs on, unfortunately everything has nontrivial deps
2019-04-16T08:30:23Z Zipheir: And the hardware...
2019-04-16T08:35:18Z wasamasa: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/785386/49e6612c4ee22769/
2019-04-16T08:35:40Z wasamasa: > Finding ways to put backdoors into various programming-language package repositories (e.g. npm, PyPI, and now RubyGems) seems like it is becoming a new Olympic sport or something.
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2019-04-16T15:13:31Z johnjay: the very special olympics
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2019-04-16T18:21:44Z amz3: http://kmicinski.com/research/functional-programming/scheme/2019/04/10/scheme-workshop/
2019-04-16T18:24:44Z dTal: I just discovered Akku and wow
2019-04-16T18:24:46Z dTal: game changer
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2019-04-16T18:56:06Z Zipheir: amz3: Looks good.
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2019-04-16T20:22:59Z amz3: :)
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2019-04-16T21:11:31Z basiclaser: hi
2019-04-16T21:12:06Z basiclaser: im passing in a path pattern to a scheme script which is failing if i try to generalise it
2019-04-16T21:13:21Z basiclaser: "Australia/*.png" works but "*/*.png" returns nothing - any ideas?
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2019-04-16T21:25:49Z dTal: basiclaser: expansion will be done in your shell unless you're doing something weird
2019-04-16T21:26:23Z dTal: maybe Australia/*.png only returns one file, while */*.png returns several, and your script can only handle one?
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2019-04-16T21:42:31Z basiclaser: dTal: hi and thanks! im too tired to think - back tomorrow
2019-04-16T21:43:29Z dTal: You probably won't need help tomorrow :p
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2019-04-17T12:21:33Z amz3: X-Scale: +
2019-04-17T12:21:37Z amz3: X-Scale: +1
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2019-04-17T17:24:38Z amz3: hello scheme
2019-04-17T17:24:51Z gnomon: amz3, o hai
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2019-04-17T17:59:25Z z0d: hi
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2019-04-17T18:35:02Z dTal: Is there a name for the lispy idiom where you handle data by translating it into s-expressions and then executing it?
2019-04-17T18:37:32Z dTal: I suppose it's the "data is code" part of "code is data, data is code"
2019-04-17T18:38:49Z gnomon: I think that pattern is called "EVAL considered harmful"
2019-04-17T18:39:13Z gwatt: (eval (read))
2019-04-17T18:40:00Z johnjay: translate the data into s-expressions... and then execute it? o_o
2019-04-17T18:40:48Z gnomon: gwatt, I mean, perhaps it would make sense to add another layer or two there
2019-04-17T18:41:15Z gnomon: gwatt, maybe (print (eval (read))), or maybe even (loop (print (eval (read))))
2019-04-17T18:41:18Z gnomon: :D
2019-04-17T18:42:15Z dTal: ah, I love coding in a lper
2019-04-17T18:42:41Z gwatt: gnomon: if we cod this: (compose read eval print loop) we can pronounce it as REPL
2019-04-17T18:44:58Z gnomon gasps
2019-04-17T18:45:02Z gnomon: What an excellent idea!
2019-04-17T18:45:31Z dTal: "loop" is not schemely, better (letrec ((f (lambda () (begin (eval (read)) (f))))) (f))
2019-04-17T18:46:54Z dTal: or "lflberff" for short
2019-04-17T18:47:39Z gnomon: (thank you for attending tonight's presentation of page 52 of Shriram Krishnamurthy's 2001 LL1 presentation "The Swine Before Perl", don't forget to tip your wait staff)
2019-04-17T18:47:49Z gnomon: dTal, geshundheit
2019-04-17T18:51:40Z dTal: well the function can be called anything, so we can make it "lolberoo" if we want
2019-04-17T18:52:16Z gnomon: ooh, maybe we could call it "monad"
2019-04-17T18:53:39Z gwatt: A while back one of my regular hangouts had a bunch of technobabble art, and the artist had a fixation with the word "monad"
2019-04-17T18:58:19Z pjb: dTal: you could call it data driven programming with compilation?   Or if the translating is light, interpreter-pattern.
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2019-04-17T18:59:00Z dTal: pjb: I like "interpreter pattern"
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2019-04-17T20:19:11Z DKordic: dTal: IDK what You mean.  Some examples?  How does it differ from Algebraic Data Type (""Data is Code"")?
2019-04-17T20:19:48Z rain1: but this isn't really athing that's ever done?
2019-04-17T20:19:57Z rain1: or is it?
2019-04-17T20:21:24Z DKordic: rain1: You mean Constructors are not computation?
2019-04-17T20:21:36Z rain1: your thinking about haskell?
2019-04-17T20:22:05Z DKordic: Functional Programming in general, and that is Lisp above all else ;) .
2019-04-17T20:22:44Z DKordic: Yes, like in Haskell :3 .
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2019-04-18T01:54:50Z jcowan: Whether constructors are computation depends on the magnification.  Constructing an object is not only computation, it's side effectful computation, when at the level of implementing "malloc".
2019-04-18T01:55:41Z jcowan: One of the things I like about Pure is that it has no constructor discipline: reduction rules may be defined for some but not all invocations, in which case the other cases are constructors.
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2019-04-18T14:31:28Z moldybits: There's a lisp game jam starting tomorrow: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2019
2019-04-18T14:31:36Z moldybits: if you guys are into that sort of thing :D
2019-04-18T14:36:56Z wasamasa: I can never seem to find the time for it
2019-04-18T14:38:11Z moldybits: it's 10 days, a bit longer than most jams
2019-04-18T14:38:35Z rain1: i tried to ask help in the lispgames channel but said it was offtopic
2019-04-18T14:38:38Z rain1: so i kinda lost interest
2019-04-18T14:38:46Z moldybits: really? :o
2019-04-18T14:39:22Z moldybits: oh, i see
2019-04-18T14:40:38Z moldybits: i don't think he meant you weren't welcome, just that you'd have better luck in #scheme
2019-04-18T14:40:45Z moldybits: i'm assuming it wasn't game related?
2019-04-18T14:41:27Z moldybits: it's not a very strict channel, but we mostly talk about games, i guess
2019-04-18T14:41:46Z moldybits: and cobol, sometimes :p
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2019-04-18T16:47:45Z ecraven: rain1: what kind of help did you ask for, that was off-topic?
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2019-04-18T21:40:58Z amz3: o/
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2019-04-18T22:17:46Z pjb:  /whoami
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2019-04-19T00:12:36Z str1ngs: pjb, asking the really deep questions :P
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2019-04-19T00:24:31Z pjb: :-)
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2019-04-19T06:06:07Z johnjay:  /whatismypurpose
2019-04-19T06:06:11Z johnjay: should be an irc command
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2019-04-19T12:18:18Z str1ngs: (when (existential crisis) (find purpose))
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2019-04-19T13:04:01Z z0d: (when (existential-crisis?) (find 'purpose))
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2019-04-19T13:39:24Z amz3: ah! my srfi proposals were accepted as srfi 167 and srfi 168 :)
2019-04-19T13:39:39Z amz3: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-167
2019-04-19T13:39:41Z amz3: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-168
2019-04-19T13:39:54Z amz3 happy
2019-04-19T13:42:06Z civodul: woohoo!
2019-04-19T13:42:29Z wasamasa: the SRFI topics sure got weirder over time
2019-04-19T13:42:59Z civodul: it's true that it's not the kind of topic we used to see addressed by SRFIs ;-)
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2019-04-19T13:52:28Z rain1: oh im surprised the variable is called "make"
2019-04-19T13:52:32Z rain1: that is a very common name
2019-04-19T13:52:49Z rain1: shouldn't it be make-database
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2019-04-19T13:56:45Z amz3: rain1: I was just made aware that I should not assume "import prefix" is available
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2019-04-19T14:01:28Z amz3: fwiw, python 2 has both dbm and bsddb in the stdlib. dbm was renamed ndbm in python3 and bsddb was removed because bsddb was re-licensed AGPLv3 by Oracle and because no other module was using it.
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2019-04-19T14:03:15Z amz3: That said, srfi 167 (okvstore) is inspired from FDB API https://apple.github.io/foundationdb/api-reference.html
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2019-04-19T14:05:11Z amz3: the main difference between bsddb and fdb is that in fdb, one can not navigate the key space with 'prev' and 'next' because it will not be efficient. Instead, there is a 'range' procedure that allows to fetch all key-value pairs where the key share a prefix
2019-04-19T14:09:10Z amz3: well, the fdb public interface is somewhat big, in particular I omited the versionstamp thing which allows to efficently allocate a monotonically increasing (but not sequential) unique identifier
2019-04-19T14:09:12Z amz3: see https://apple.github.io/foundationdb/api-python.html#fdb.Transaction.set_versionstamped_key
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2019-04-19T14:09:59Z amz3: anyway, srfi 167 is forward compatible with that, and if an implementation wants to suppport versionstamp they can make it part of `pack` and `unpack` procedures (like fdb does)
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2019-04-19T14:57:23Z jcowan: Note that acceptance of a SRFI is not a judgment on the quality of its ideas, only that it fits the structural requirements.  The judgment comes later when we see if anyone adopts the SRFI.
2019-04-19T14:57:42Z rain1: >The judgment comes later
2019-04-19T14:57:44Z rain1: ominous
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2019-04-19T14:59:34Z jcowan: None of Joo ChurlSoo's SRFIs, for example, have ever come close to taking off.
2019-04-19T15:02:00Z jcowan: Design question: What's the best way to represent "struct timespec" (which contains Posix time in seconds and nanoseconds) in Scheme?  Remember that it's fairly important to get the time to Scheme with as little overhead as possible.  Three ideas are a Scheme record, a Scheme pair, or multiple values.
2019-04-19T15:04:46Z jcowan: Records are slower and have more overhead, most likely, than pairs.  Multiple values are awkward to deal with in Schemes that don't discard unwanted values, and many implementations use records, lists, or something else.
2019-04-19T15:04:56Z jcowan: So I tend to favor pairs so far.
2019-04-19T15:05:12Z z0d: why are you so concerned with overhead?
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2019-04-19T15:07:01Z jcowan: When you ask for the time to usec precision (even if not accuracy), you probably want the time now, not a while back.
2019-04-19T15:09:07Z Riastradh: jcowan: What I did for MIT Scheme a while back was (let ((p (cons 0 0))) ((ucode-primitive nanotime-since-utc-epoch 1) p) (let ((sec (car p)) (nsec (cdr p))) ...)).
2019-04-19T15:10:08Z Riastradh: (The UTC epoch is 1972-01-01, and the number of seconds returned is the best approximation to the number of SI seconds that have elapsed, as measured and averaged by the TAI network on earth's surface.  No promises about interplanetary time or worse.)
2019-04-19T15:16:36Z jcowan: Okay, so you basically pass the primitive a pair to be clobbered.  I don't understand the significance of 1, but otherwise it's clear.  Thanks.
2019-04-19T15:17:01Z Riastradh: number of arguments
2019-04-19T15:17:16Z Riastradh: This is not necessarily a user-facing API; this is just what I implemented for building a user-facing AI.
2019-04-19T15:18:37Z jcowan: R7RS's epoch is the start of the TAI year 1970, which is almost exactly 8 seconds before the start of the proleptic UTC calendar.
2019-04-19T15:19:13Z Riastradh: I picked 1972-01-01 in order to avoid playing games with proleptic UTC.
2019-04-19T15:19:35Z jcowan: I wanted to go back to 1958, when TAI-pUTC = 0.
2019-04-19T15:20:26Z Riastradh: I don't see that as a meaningful difference: TAI is a system for counting seconds, and UTC is a system for labelling the TAI-counted seconds in a Gregorian-style calendar.
2019-04-19T15:20:53Z jcowan: There are messy formulae for the period 1961 (when UTC begins) to 1972, but I'm approximating them with ten fake leap seconds in well-chosen years between 1958 and 1972, carefully avoiding 1969.
2019-04-19T15:21:31Z jcowan: Fundamentally the problem is that there is no portable or even semi-portable way to ask the OS "Is the current second in fact a leap second?"
2019-04-19T15:21:32Z Riastradh: Labelling TAI-counted seconds in a Gregorian-style calendar _other_ than UTC is just silly, so I don't see `TAI - (p)UTC' as a concept worth considering.
2019-04-19T15:21:52Z Riastradh: jcowan: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/plain/src/microcode/uxenv.c
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2019-04-19T15:23:14Z jcowan: Thanks, I'll study that.  My current approach is to have users download http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/tai-utc.dat and crunch that into conversion tables between Posix timestamps and TAI.
2019-04-19T15:23:42Z Riastradh: (OK, OK, back eight years ago or whenever when I wrote that comment, I did say `TAI - UTC' for the number of leap seconds, but that was either (a) because I hadn't concluded `TAI - UTC' is a silly concept, or (b) I thought it would be more familiar than saying `the number of leap seconds'.)
2019-04-19T15:28:44Z jcowan: Well, to the Time Lords they aren't quite the same, unless you want to say that as of the Posix epoch 8.000082 leap seconds had been inserted.
2019-04-19T15:29:33Z jcowan: But based on my fake leap second hack, they become the same for my purposes.
2019-04-19T15:32:58Z Riastradh: Like I said, I didn't want to get into games with proleptic UTC!
2019-04-19T15:33:56Z Riastradh: ANYWAY, the code there computes a good approximation to the number of SI seconds as measured by the TAI clocks since the UTC epoch (1972-01-01) -- `good' in the sense that during a leap second, it _doesn't_ skip a beat.
2019-04-19T15:36:33Z Riastradh: Hm.  SANITIZE_USEC is buggy in the buggy case.  Should return 999999999UL, not 999999UL.
2019-04-19T15:36:46Z jcowan: I'll look at it now.
2019-04-19T15:43:57Z jcowan: Okay, I understand the comments at least.
2019-04-19T15:44:26Z jcowan: Of course, this routine doesn't have to deal with historical timestamps, which mine does, so there is no getting away from the above table.
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2019-04-19T15:45:50Z jcowan: I also have to assume that pTAI = pUTC before 1958, which is certainly false.  In particular, the choice of 1900 to define the SI second originally was less than fortunate, and even if the Earth were to become a perfect clock today, we'd still have to insert leap seconds into UTC.
2019-04-19T15:46:51Z pjb: I hear the last time a leap second had to be inserted, they just forgot about it, because of all the computer system that couldn't deal with it.
2019-04-19T15:47:01Z pjb: So basically UTC is fixed, and we let the planet drift.
2019-04-19T15:47:43Z pjb: Which is as well IMO, given we now have clocks in space, on Mars, etc, ie. that drift at different speeds already because of gravity.
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2019-04-19T15:52:20Z jcowan: Not so.  We are nowhere near the 900 ms threshold needed for action; currently the discrepancy between UT1 (rotational time) and UTC is about 69 seconds.
2019-04-19T15:54:14Z Riastradh: jcowan: This code doesn't address UTC _labelling_.  It only addresses _counting seconds_.
2019-04-19T15:54:24Z Riastradh: jcowan: If you're concerned with nanosecond precision, you're not doing calendrical calculations.
2019-04-19T15:54:31Z Riastradh: or even microsecond precision.
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2019-04-19T15:55:17Z jcowan: I don't understand that last statement.
2019-04-19T15:56:00Z jcowan: s/seconds/milliseconds/ above
2019-04-19T15:56:07Z weinholt: jcowan, curiously IERS Bulletin A from yesterday says DUT1 = (UT1-UTC) = -0.1 seconds
2019-04-19T15:56:42Z Riastradh: Historical UTC labels are not particularly relevant to what this code does.
2019-04-19T15:58:55Z jcowan: weinholt: Yes, I wonder why the discrepancy.  I was looking at http://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/deltat.data; does that not represent DUT1?
2019-04-19T15:58:58Z jcowan: Riastradh: Sure
2019-04-19T16:02:06Z Riastradh: jcowan: Which part of what I said is confusing?
2019-04-19T16:03:13Z weinholt: jcowan, that file appears to be TT-UT1
2019-04-19T16:09:38Z jcowan: Ah, thanks.
2019-04-19T16:10:29Z jcowan: How is it that if you are dealing with nano/microseconds you are not doing calendrical calcuations?  The concept of civil time specified to a nanosecond is perfectly cromulent.
2019-04-19T16:12:25Z Riastradh: jcowan: There are two regimes of interest:  1. Measuring and acting in small durations of time, like microseconds or milliseconds, with reference to the nearby physical world, like your CPU or a node nearby on the network.  2. Identifying times on an absolute scale, relative to some epoch years ago that the broader world agrees on.
2019-04-19T16:12:53Z Riastradh: In (1), it can be very very very bad if your clock suddenly skips a beat.  It doesn't matter, however, if your clock is off from the broader world by a few seconds.
2019-04-19T16:12:58Z z0d: anyone knows why package-install can't find 'geiser'?
2019-04-19T16:13:41Z Riastradh: In (2), if you're just writing down the year/month/day, it doesn't matter if your clock skipped a beat as long as it's not too far off.
2019-04-19T16:14:57Z Riastradh: The code I quoted addresses (1).  It is _complicated_ because of the idiotic calendrical bugs baked into a POSIX clock, where it has to know which seconds, of the billions that have happened since UTC began, were labeled as YYYY-06-30T23:59:60 or YYYY-12-31T23:59:60 in UTC calendars.
2019-04-19T16:16:40Z Riastradh: The complication undoes that nonsense by asking the kernel for how many of those seconds were labelled as leap seconds -- which may change from one query to the next across a few (say) milliseconds, if we're currently in a leap second.
2019-04-19T16:18:26Z Riastradh: It would be much simpler if a POSIX clock just ticked SI seconds, because in regime (1), you really don't care about the fact that there was a second labelled 2016-12-31T23:59:60, or that there have been 27 of them since 1972, so that even though 1555690717 seconds have elapsed the POSIX clock reads 1555690690.
2019-04-19T16:19:26Z Riastradh: It would be better if the POSIX clock just read an elapsed 1555690717 seconds, and _separate_ higher-level calendrical logic turned that into a UTC date.
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2019-04-19T16:23:56Z jcowan: Unfortunately, Unix predates the leap-second routine, and indeed the first version had a 1/60 s granularity and wrapped around every 2.5 years or so.
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2019-04-19T16:28:57Z jcowan: I think the problem was that too much code assumed that 60 Unix clock ticks = 1 civil minute.
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2019-04-19T16:32:04Z jcowan: But back to your 1 vs 2, there are obvious counterexamples like eclipse predictions, which are often better than 1s despite being subject to many sources of error.
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2019-04-19T16:36:18Z jcowan: And hey, at least we don't have to worry about "embolismic deficient years" and the like.
2019-04-19T16:36:36Z Riastradh: jcowan: Sure, I'm not saying that every application falls exactly into one or the other.  What I am saying is that a POSIX clock serves (1) _extremely badly_, because _most_ of the time it resembles what (1) needs and so during testing it will appear fine, but once every year or two, it fails _simultaneously_ on hordes of computers all over the world.
2019-04-19T16:37:43Z Riastradh: If we just counted SI seconds as measured by TAI as the basic clock, and did calendrical calculations -- including the determination of which seconds were leap seconds -- at another level, everything would be served better.
2019-04-19T16:38:30Z Riastradh: Except, of course, for an extremely naive formula for computing the date using 86400 seconds per day, which as far sa I can tell is the _sole reason_ POSIX does this stupid thing.  But that formula is already wrong as soon as you're talking about civil time anyway, because it ignores time zones.
2019-04-19T16:38:59Z jcowan: It's right for time periods, though, which I think was the original idea.
2019-04-19T16:39:10Z Riastradh: What do you mean by time periods?
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2019-04-19T16:39:29Z Riastradh: It doesn't count reliable durations of seconds, certainly.
2019-04-19T16:39:30Z jcowan: How many seconds in 1 hour 15 minutes 32 seconds?
2019-04-19T16:40:30Z jcowan: By ignoring leap secs you can convert that to seconds and so determine the timestap that far into the future/past.
2019-04-19T16:40:34Z Riastradh: There are 4532 SI seconds in that _duration_.  If you look at a POSIX clock, wait 4532 seconds, and then look at the POSIX clock again, though, the difference might not be 4532!
2019-04-19T16:40:57Z jcowan: I don't think that's right; I think there are either 4532 or 4533 SI seconds in it.
2019-04-19T16:41:00Z Riastradh: Yes, that's exactly why a POSIX clock should _ignore_ leap seconds instead of figuring them into the calculation.
2019-04-19T16:41:25Z Riastradh: jcowan: If you're talking about a difference of _dates_, that's a different matter from a duration of time.
2019-04-19T16:41:29Z Riastradh: Now we're talking calendars.
2019-04-19T16:41:33Z jcowan: (ISO calls them time periods, and so do I, and has a notation for them: PT1H15M32S.
2019-04-19T16:41:34Z jcowan: )
2019-04-19T16:42:21Z Riastradh: My point is that there should be one clock for SI seconds that doesn't care about _any_ calendrical issues: time zones, leap years, leap seconds, &c.  Calendar issues should be counted separately.
2019-04-19T16:42:40Z jcowan: And so there is, TAI.
2019-04-19T16:42:48Z Riastradh: Right.  But POSIX doesn't expose it.
2019-04-19T16:42:53Z jcowan: Right.
2019-04-19T16:43:24Z jcowan: Without leap secs, a time period can be reduced to (months, minutes), but with them you need (months, minutes, seconds).
2019-04-19T16:43:28Z pjb: Now, it looks like the universe is chaotic anyways, so even if you had a time-travel device, you couldn't jump precisely to a given time in the future or the past, the imprecision growing with the time offset.  Knowing that, I lose some interest in maintaining precise(calendar) time anyways…
2019-04-19T16:43:51Z jcowan: pjb: Don't do any day trading, then.
2019-04-19T16:44:07Z pjb: :-)
2019-04-19T16:44:10Z jcowan: (That's another fine example of highly precise time that's very remote)
2019-04-19T16:44:32Z Riastradh: So, the code I quoted is some complicated logic to _undo_ the unnecessary complication in a POSIX clock where it counts the number of SI seconds, _minus_ the number that were written in green^W^W^Wlabelled as leap seconds in UTC.
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2019-04-19T16:44:50Z Riastradh: What it gives in the end is a clock that counts SI seconds.
2019-04-19T16:45:04Z Riastradh: (from the UTC epoch)
2019-04-19T16:45:15Z Riastradh: Want years, months, days, in UTC labelling -- do calendar stuff at a higher level.
2019-04-19T16:45:31Z jcowan: An option will usually expire at 5 PM exactly on a certain day, London or NY time, which means neither the number of seconds until then can be predicted in advance (due to leap secs) nor even the number of hours (due to future changes in time zone).
2019-04-19T16:45:32Z Riastradh: Want civil time periods, same thing.
2019-04-19T16:46:10Z jcowan: My last quibble is that "UTC epoch" is misleading, since the actual epoch is 1961.
2019-04-19T16:46:50Z Riastradh: jcowan: 1972-01-01T00:00:00 is the modern UTC epoch in the sense that it's when the modern notion of UTC began so there's no question about counting an integral number of leap seconds since then.
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2019-04-19T16:47:09Z jcowan: I looked into what Chibi does meanwhile, and if your system clock is on TAI-n, you have to specify the value of n in an environment variable.
2019-04-19T16:47:18Z Riastradh: Want proleptic UTC, have fun with timekeeping nerds.  My aim is to provide something that works reliably without having to be a timekeeping nerd.
2019-04-19T16:47:21Z jcowan: Failing that, it attempts to use NTP and then falls back if it can't.
2019-04-19T16:47:30Z Riastradh: Even during a leap second.
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2019-04-19T16:48:11Z jcowan: One known problem is that actual systems don't always obey the Posix model of reporting the Posix timestamp of a leap second to be the same as the following second.
2019-04-19T16:49:17Z Riastradh: It seems unlikely to me that the logic I wrote would fail in that case.
2019-04-19T16:50:03Z Riastradh: In particular, it would be a rather peculiar system that (a) provides a TAI clock _instead of_ a POSIX clock in (e.g.) clock_gettime, but (b) claims via ntp_gettime that the number of leap seconds is changing.
2019-04-19T16:50:57Z Riastradh: More likely, either 1. clock_gettime is a POSIX clock (TAI - nleapsec) and ntp_gettime reports the POSIX clock along with the number of leap seconds, or 2. clock_gettime is a TAI clock and ntp_gettime reports a TAI clock with 0 for the number of leap seconds.
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2019-04-19T17:18:46Z jcowan: Some implementations apparently do tricks like running their clocks slowly, and even NTP doesn't define when *within* the leap second the discontinuity occurs.
2019-04-19T17:19:26Z jcowan: One clever idea that afaik nobody does is to carry leap sec information in the nanoseconds field by allowing its value to range up to 2e9 - 1.
2019-04-19T17:35:26Z jcowan: I like the comment "You are a strange, sad little Unix."
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2019-04-20T11:55:47Z z0d: there are no IRC libraries for Guile :-( the only one doesn't compile anymore
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2019-04-20T12:03:34Z amz3: z0d: there is some work done as part of industria related to IRC but I did not test it
2019-04-20T12:03:49Z amz3: here is the main repo https://github.com/weinholt/industria
2019-04-20T12:04:22Z amz3: z0d: here is the IRC library that was made for r6rs (prolly compatible with guile) https://github.com/weinholt/irc-protocol
2019-04-20T12:04:51Z amz3: z0d: also IIRC there is IRC support on 8sync
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2019-04-20T12:05:26Z wasamasa: does anyone use these libraries?
2019-04-20T12:05:58Z wasamasa: it would be funny if there was something not industry-strength about them :P
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2019-04-20T12:07:54Z weinholt: it is just latin for industriousness, has nothing to do with industry-strength :)
2019-04-20T12:08:15Z wasamasa: I see
2019-04-20T12:08:53Z z0d: amz3: thanks, let me check
2019-04-20T12:10:07Z wasamasa: I see it's using pkcs1 v1.5 for rsa and throws an exception on invalid padding
2019-04-20T12:10:30Z wasamasa: so if there were some web app or something of that kind and it would propagate that exception, one could pull a bleichenbacher oracle
2019-04-20T12:11:01Z weinholt: you're more than welcome to contribute fixes
2019-04-20T12:11:07Z wasamasa: it's a conceptual problem
2019-04-20T12:11:12Z weinholt: or at least report the issue
2019-04-20T12:11:13Z z0d: amz3: this looks ok, although one still needs to write the non-blocking part for it
2019-04-20T12:11:27Z wasamasa: for this reason institutions would rather not touch rsa in the first place
2019-04-20T12:11:33Z wasamasa: it's hard to do padding correctly
2019-04-20T12:11:52Z wasamasa: the easy way has been exploited over and over again, the hard way is either incomprehensible or riddled with patents
2019-04-20T12:12:25Z wasamasa: in any case, I'd like to see some code actually using this to verify whether it's a problem in practice
2019-04-20T12:12:43Z wasamasa: otherwise it's a purely theoretical concern
2019-04-20T12:13:59Z weinholt: wasamasa, it's probably used in industria's SSH key exchange and in https://gitlab.com/weinholt/TerribleTLS
2019-04-20T12:14:07Z wasamasa: wow, that name :D
2019-04-20T12:14:43Z wasamasa: I've only exploited it so far in my own code without a web app sitting in-between
2019-04-20T12:15:21Z wasamasa: in SSH I doubt you can exploit it because there's no way to do a few thousand padding error checks
2019-04-20T12:15:25Z wasamasa: in TLS it has been done
2019-04-20T12:21:36Z amz3: z0d: you can use guile-fiber
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2019-04-20T13:04:33Z gwatt: https://github.com/racket/racket/commit/e337c65204402ef4faf09f6a848d2d873d0e63a7
2019-04-20T13:05:56Z rain1: wow
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2019-04-20T18:27:44Z Zipheir: I'm probably dense, but why does (denominator 7/5) give 2.25179981368525e+15 rather than 5?  CHICKEN 4, btw.
2019-04-20T18:28:14Z wasamasa: because you didn't (use numbers
2019-04-20T18:28:17Z wasamasa: )?
2019-04-20T18:28:37Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Indeed.  That does it.
2019-04-20T18:28:44Z rain1: #;1> (denominator 7/5)
2019-04-20T18:28:46Z rain1: 5
2019-04-20T18:29:09Z Zipheir: wasamasa: ty for the one-line fix :)
2019-04-20T18:31:29Z Zipheir: Yeah, CHICKEN 4's numerator and denominator give very weird results in the absence of the numbers egg.
2019-04-20T18:31:43Z Zipheir: I guess it's time to migrate to 5...
2019-04-20T18:32:02Z wasamasa: I migrated my web stuff today
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2019-04-20T18:50:47Z amz3: I am fighting with various scheme to get some code tested with several scheme implementation, I can only tell I did not figure how
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2019-04-21T08:57:10Z TCZ: hi xd
2019-04-21T08:57:24Z TCZ: wasamasa is not here so i cant write hehehe
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2019-04-21T09:06:17Z wasamasa: what are you spewing again
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2019-04-21T17:57:39Z amz3: weinholt: hello, what is your plan regarding akku, r7rs's red and tangerine editions?
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2019-04-21T17:58:55Z weinholt: amz3, no plan at this time
2019-04-21T18:00:46Z amz3: hmm
2019-04-21T18:01:14Z amz3: IIUC only the red edition is done, isn't it?
2019-04-21T18:05:54Z weinholt: i think tangerine is done too
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2019-04-21T22:16:48Z rain1: what the hell
2019-04-21T22:17:05Z rain1: did r6rs really specify "define-record-type" that's totally different to srfi-9 define-record-type?
2019-04-21T22:17:07Z rain1: why ?
2019-04-21T22:22:17Z amz3: apparantly it was a long debate
2019-04-21T22:22:55Z amz3: I was wondering the same but asking around lead me to think I'd rather not know all the story... or I would revive some painful thought
2019-04-21T22:25:18Z rain1: really bad of them to do that
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2019-04-21T22:52:52Z Zipheir: I recall reading that the record system was one of the biggest controversies with R6.  Apparently most of the people who voted against that report mentioned the record system as a reason.
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2019-04-22T00:09:44Z aeth: you can't make me :-)
2019-04-22T00:12:29Z acs5843: aeth: sorry, my friend. I'm learning IRC and screwing up the commands. :(
2019-04-22T00:12:38Z aeth: it happens all of the time
2019-04-22T00:13:34Z aeth: what gets me all of the time is when I somehow had a ' ' typed in the chat box that I didn't notice because then I type
2019-04-22T00:13:37Z aeth:  /foo
2019-04-22T00:13:55Z acs5843: aeth: haha...so I'm not the only one?
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2019-04-22T00:22:46Z aeth: far from it
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2019-04-22T00:34:45Z jcowan: The problem with SRFI 9 define-record-type is that it's not easily extensible and not very self-documenting.  You have to know the order of the subforms in order to write one, and I often end up having to look it up yet again.  The R6RS approach is much better on those counts; the only thing wrong with it is its incompatibility with existing code.
2019-04-22T00:35:00Z jcowan: Fortunately, it's possible to write a macro that allows either syntax, which is what Larceny does.
2019-04-22T00:35:16Z jcowan: And yes, both Red and Tangerine are complete.
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2019-04-22T00:52:22Z aeth: jcowan: what does r7rs use?
2019-04-22T00:52:38Z jcowan: SRFI 9
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2019-04-22T21:08:18Z johnjay: the drama of scheme
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2019-04-22T21:08:21Z johnjay: finally comes out
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2019-04-22T21:15:20Z amz3: ?
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2019-04-22T21:29:04Z Zipheir: ... to mixed reviews.
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2019-04-22T22:22:14Z amz3: Q: what is the difference between "immutable" and "persistent" datastructure? Can a datastructure be both at the same time? TIA!
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2019-04-22T22:53:39Z pjb: amz3: yes.
2019-04-22T22:53:48Z pjb: immutable is that you cannot change it.
2019-04-22T22:54:10Z pjb: persiste is when you cannot lose it, eg. by shutting down your computer and rebooting it.
2019-04-22T22:54:24Z pjb: the four cases are possible.
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2019-04-22T23:04:00Z amz3: so my database project is persistent not immutable. tx!
2019-04-22T23:12:19Z TCZ: o.O
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2019-04-22T23:38:35Z Riastradh: `Persistent' of a _data structure_ means the previous version is preserved after an update.
2019-04-22T23:39:28Z Riastradh: E.g., a balanced binary tree where you create new branches down from a new root instead of modifying the pointers of the existing nodes in place -- this way the old root and the new root both work, but share storage.
2019-04-22T23:41:16Z Riastradh: This is unrelated to `persistent storage', which survives reboots, as opposed to ephemeral storage, which is only in volatile memory and evaporates when you restart.
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2019-04-23T11:13:53Z mdhughes_: I just ran a benchmark on some Schemes: https://mdhughes.tech/2019/04/23/how-fast-is-my-scheme/
2019-04-23T11:14:51Z mdhughes_: Which, Sieve may be a dumb benchmark, but I want more to complain about the command line arguments thing.
2019-04-23T11:16:30Z amz3: tx for sharing.
2019-04-23T11:16:54Z amz3: wrt "I want to complain about every Scheme having a different way to call the interpreter as a script, and invoke main with command line arguments."
2019-04-23T11:16:56Z amz3: complain until you try to test some code portably..
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2019-04-23T11:18:41Z mdhughes_: I am in fact complaining about that.
2019-04-23T11:19:13Z amz3: yes you are right
2019-04-23T11:20:35Z mdhughes_: Ideally, every Scheme would be like Chicken. (main (command-line-arguments)) gets argv[1:], argv[0] is in (program-name). That's very program-friendly.
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2019-04-23T11:40:46Z wasamasa: you could try doing it r7rs-style, but then you'd learn how much of a pain CHICKEN is to get that right
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2019-04-23T12:22:15Z jcowan: The reason C has main() (which it borrowed from PL/I) is that it doesn't allow anything outside a function.  Scheme doesn't have that problem, so there is no reason to have anything like main.
2019-04-23T12:22:38Z wasamasa: tell that gerbil scheme
2019-04-23T12:29:49Z amz3: s/tell/take/
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2019-04-23T13:25:34Z rain2: to display the results with a bar chart graph would be very helpful
2019-04-23T13:25:57Z rain2: time rather than %
2019-04-23T13:26:59Z rain2: it seems that biwascheme is vastly slower than everything else.. what a shame
2019-04-23T13:37:13Z amz3: and the stack depth limit.
2019-04-23T13:44:48Z rain2: I wonder what the best way to do scheme in browser is
2019-04-23T13:47:47Z z0d: aybe via Emscripten
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2019-04-23T13:59:45Z gwatt: https://github.com/google/schism looks interesting
2019-04-23T14:00:07Z gwatt: development pace is a little low
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2019-04-23T14:06:58Z amz3: rain2: chibi.
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2019-04-23T14:18:28Z mdhughes_: main itself isn't a big deal, though I prefer to keep a single entry point and local vars, but parsing the command line is annoying.
2019-04-23T14:19:04Z mdhughes_: biwa's also terrible at interaction, apparently you can wrap it in a repl that'll handle read/read-line, but it's not built in.
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2019-04-23T14:23:25Z mdhughes_: If there's more Schemes people'd like to see benchmarked, I may add them and make a nicer display. This was just what I had handy, and looking at rain's problem on the fediverse.
2019-04-23T14:25:07Z wasamasa: there's also https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks
2019-04-23T14:25:59Z wasamasa: ecraven: are you interested in upgrading your scheme benchmarks to C5?
2019-04-23T14:26:04Z ecraven: wasamasa: yes
2019-04-23T14:26:21Z wasamasa: alright, I'll look into that then, it would allow properly fixing the numbers issue
2019-04-23T14:26:23Z ecraven: what's the stance on c4? is it still supported? just pondering replacing c4 with c5, instead of keeping both
2019-04-23T14:26:32Z wasamasa: it's still supported
2019-04-23T14:26:46Z ecraven: so I should really show both, not only c5?
2019-04-23T14:26:54Z wasamasa: it would just be a bit more annoying to run benchmarks for both\
2019-04-23T14:27:08Z ecraven: well, maybe completely decouple them
2019-04-23T14:31:46Z mdhughes_: That's a nice benchmark set. I'm surprised to see Racket do well at all, or Chicken do so poorly on those.
2019-04-23T14:32:03Z ecraven: keep in mind that they are *r7rs* benchmarks, so some shims are needed on most systems
2019-04-23T14:32:08Z ecraven: chicken suffers a lot from those shims
2019-04-23T14:32:57Z wasamasa: yeah, you could actually use the r7rs egg
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2019-04-23T14:33:29Z mdhughes_: Looking at the prelude, I think native utf8 in C5 should be faster than those functions.
2019-04-23T14:33:40Z ecraven: wasamasa: I think I do?
2019-04-23T14:33:57Z wasamasa: doesn't look so: https://github.com/ecraven/r7rs-benchmarks/blob/master/src/Chicken-prelude.scm#L1
2019-04-23T14:34:13Z wasamasa: mdhughes_: there is no such thing as native utf8
2019-04-23T14:39:14Z jcowan: There's Chibi via Emscripten; there's also Spock, Chicken's browser-based cousin.
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2019-04-23T14:58:34Z rain2: schism is bad
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2019-04-23T15:15:04Z amz3: x0
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2019-04-23T15:49:12Z gwatt: rain2: it's certainly incomplete. Hopefully Eric can get some time to work on it.
2019-04-23T15:50:14Z rain2: yeah
2019-04-23T15:50:40Z rain2: at the moment webasm isn't providing enough pieces to do scheme well, we need tail call support, GC, and jit/dynamic loading
2019-04-23T15:51:10Z rain2: (you currenlty have to implement each of these in an ad-hoc way)
2019-04-23T15:51:49Z gwatt: TCO support is the only thing required from the wasm side though
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2019-04-23T15:55:30Z amz3: I think TCO will get out of ECMAScript because..
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2019-04-23T15:55:42Z amz3: the instance of TCO they planned to have anyway
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2019-04-23T17:36:30Z jcowan: Yes, nobody implements it so it's going to be removed (or has been removed, not sure which)
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2019-04-23T17:45:22Z z0d: what's wrong with schism?
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2019-04-23T17:49:59Z jcowan: z0d: Nothing, except that it is an excruciatingly tiny subset.
2019-04-23T17:56:49Z amz3: that said I don't know about wasm TCO support. Not sure if it is related to ECMA Script itself.
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2019-04-23T18:19:33Z amz3: jcowan: I am allowed to send a mail to the r7rs mailing list?
2019-04-23T18:21:08Z gwatt: amz3: if you send an email, does it show up?
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2019-04-23T18:23:10Z amz3: I did not try.
2019-04-23T18:23:14Z amz3: gwatt: ^
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2019-04-23T18:50:27Z amz3: oh my message went through https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/scheme-reports-wg2/Oqb5hHsmoC4
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2019-04-23T19:56:06Z jcowan: You'll need to subscribe
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2019-04-24T07:40:42Z aeth: oni-on-ion: iirc jcowan has a page which lists which implementations use which keyword syntax. I can't find it at the moment.
2019-04-24T07:42:39Z oni-on-ion: ohh that would be delicious. spent last 2 weeks perusing countless api docs
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2019-04-24T09:39:57Z jcowan: oni-on-ion, aeth: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/KeywordSyntax.md
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2019-04-24T19:14:49Z rain1: hello
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2019-04-24T20:22:44Z Zipheir: Hey rain1.
2019-04-24T20:25:32Z amz3: o/
2019-04-24T20:31:28Z z0d: hi
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2019-04-24T21:06:27Z amz3: jcowan: sorry, but I started documenting r7rs by picking a lot of stuff from r7rs-small, is that ok?
2019-04-24T21:10:33Z rain1: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/41028289/avl-trees-in-scheme#comment69294338_41028289
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2019-04-24T21:15:14Z daviid: I think there is an avl tree implementation in scheme already, though I'm not sure, anyone knows? not to rewrite the wheel ...
2019-04-24T21:17:39Z gwatt: There are probably multiple. However, this question might be homework or just for fun.
2019-04-24T21:20:53Z daviid: probably, sorry to 'shim in'
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2019-04-24T21:31:38Z johnjay: avl trees are good for retrieval and not insertion?
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2019-04-24T21:43:15Z Zipheir: No, AVL trees should give O(log n) insert, lookup, and delete.  c.f. Wikipedia
2019-04-24T21:47:14Z johnjay: oh i see
2019-04-24T21:47:23Z johnjay: the notes i was reading must have been refering to that specific implementation then
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2019-04-24T22:08:01Z Zipheir: Maybe the logarithmic-time version requires some optimizations, I dunno.
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2019-04-24T22:33:25Z jcowan: amz3: Of course.  There are a lot more -small implementations than -large ones at this time.
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2019-04-24T23:11:26Z amz3: tx a lot :)
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2019-04-25T05:03:28Z johnjay: amz3: today i learned about cdr7 in addition to r7rs
2019-04-25T05:03:35Z johnjay: now i just need to figure out where the elisp7 standard is
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2019-04-25T05:15:10Z Zipheir: johnjay: cdr7?
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2019-04-25T05:18:17Z johnjay: Zipheir: i'm not totally sure. i think it's like srfi but for cl
2019-04-25T05:18:57Z johnjay: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/document/7/index.html
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2019-04-25T05:19:06Z johnjay: that's the link. maybe i'm being stupid though
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2019-04-25T05:29:31Z Zipheir: johnjay: ty
2019-04-25T05:30:41Z Zipheir: "CDR: Commonlisp Document Repository".  I see.
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2019-04-25T08:59:15Z rain1: what would be a good simple and efficient way to implement scheme in javascript? including tail calls
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2019-04-25T11:24:28Z rain1: i really dislike this will ness dickhead on stackexchange
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2019-04-25T11:42:40Z amz3: johnjay: cl is lisp-2 :/
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2019-04-25T11:56:44Z z0d: amz3: you don't like explicit FUNCALL?
2019-04-25T11:57:43Z wasamasa: we're in #scheme, duh
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2019-04-25T12:14:04Z amz3: z0d: I don't see the point.
2019-04-25T12:19:19Z z0d: to this day ELisp still amazes me. so much code and variables in one namespace and no collisions
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2019-04-25T12:32:59Z z0d: wasamasa: please forgive my heresy
2019-04-25T12:33:19Z wasamasa: one day I'll figure out why there's so many CL people in here
2019-04-25T12:33:33Z wasamasa: is #lisp not big enough to accomodate for you?
2019-04-25T12:33:57Z z0d: why do you think I'm a CL guy?
2019-04-25T12:34:22Z wasamasa: because you wrote funcall in allcaps
2019-04-25T12:34:28Z wasamasa: only CL people do that
2019-04-25T12:34:57Z z0d: I write every Scheme function or special form caps too
2019-04-25T12:35:06Z wasamasa: my condolences
2019-04-25T12:35:20Z wasamasa: I suggest you to invest into actual markup
2019-04-25T12:35:42Z amz3: x)
2019-04-25T12:36:03Z z0d: like <code>lambda</code>?
2019-04-25T12:36:05Z wasamasa: even something as stupid as `funcall'
2019-04-25T12:36:17Z wasamasa: or `funcall`
2019-04-25T12:36:21Z z0d: IRC is very poor regarding markup
2019-04-25T12:36:22Z wasamasa: or \tt{funcall}
2019-04-25T12:36:35Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Cut it out.
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2019-04-25T12:36:44Z wasamasa: or ``funcall``
2019-04-25T12:36:59Z Riastradh: wasamasa: Your level of hostility is not welcome.
2019-04-25T12:36:59Z wasamasa: anyway, you get the point
2019-04-25T12:39:46Z rain1: just /ignore him
2019-04-25T12:39:58Z rain1: almost 0 harassment here after doing that
2019-04-25T12:40:03Z rain1: and pjb
2019-04-25T12:43:30Z z0d: I'm not easily offended
2019-04-25T12:56:51Z Riastradh: It's all well and good to have a thick skin or a judicious /ignore list, but that should not be a prerequisite for anyone else to enjoy the channel.
2019-04-25T13:02:16Z amz3: +1
2019-04-25T13:03:54Z amz3: apparantly, MIT Scheme is a native code compiler. Its FFI infrastructure is similar to chicken AFAICT
2019-04-25T13:04:02Z amz3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT/GNU_Scheme
2019-04-25T13:04:22Z amz3: GNU has three scheme, kawa, guile and ^
2019-04-25T13:05:48Z amz3: anyway, I am wondering how to make the FFI of MIT Scheme, Chicken compatible with Chez and Guile kind of FFI
2019-04-25T13:06:18Z amz3: it seems to me chibi scheme has also an FFI that is similar to MIT and Chicken
2019-04-25T13:07:05Z amz3: maybe the answer to that question is something C header based, in the spirit of pypy cffi https://cffi.readthedocs.io/
2019-04-25T13:08:04Z amz3: there is at least two modes in cffi. I am thinking about the mode that requires some preprocessing / compilation step
2019-04-25T13:09:22Z amz3: I only deal with C foreign function interface, which i guess would be prolly be incompatible with Kawa
2019-04-25T13:09:41Z amz3: anyway, just trying to change conversation :)
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2019-04-25T13:27:13Z erkin: GNU also has two competing Common Lisp implementations too! gcl and clisp.
2019-04-25T13:28:23Z erkin: Looking at the backlog, maybe I shouldn't've made that remark.
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2019-04-25T14:32:22Z z0d: :->
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2019-04-25T14:43:55Z pjb: >-ε
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2019-04-25T17:26:22Z Zipheir: Hmm, formatting combinators are really getting sophisticad, what with SRFI 166.
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2019-04-25T18:52:49Z rain1: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/54856696/how-to-import-module-in-scheme  anyone familiar with scheme48, you could help this guy
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2019-04-25T20:33:31Z amz3: o/
2019-04-25T20:34:48Z rain1: hi amz!
2019-04-25T20:40:33Z duncanm: oh heh
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2019-04-25T20:45:00Z duncanm: rain1: this part of s48 I still remember: https://stackoverflow.com/a/55857368/494990
2019-04-25T20:45:07Z duncanm: so i wrote up something
2019-04-25T20:45:07Z rain1: nice one!
2019-04-25T20:45:14Z rain1: thats kind ofy ou
2019-04-25T20:45:14Z duncanm: Riastradh taught me a lot of it years ago
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2019-04-25T20:47:06Z duncanm: rain1: vote up so I get some points or something ;-P
2019-04-25T20:47:28Z rain1: i did :P
2019-04-25T20:47:39Z rain1: :) hopefully they'll accept it later too
2019-04-25T20:47:44Z duncanm: heh
2019-04-25T20:47:58Z duncanm: I need 2 more pts to get to the next level, it's a game
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2019-04-25T21:09:51Z duncanm: woohoo
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2019-04-25T21:36:12Z Riastradh: Are you letting yourself get addicted to stackoverflow?
2019-04-25T21:42:16Z amz3: :)
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2019-04-26T08:12:39Z weeber: hello, I'm starting with scheme, I have the following code:
2019-04-26T08:13:06Z weeber: (test (h 1) (toto 1) (toto 2))
2019-04-26T08:13:21Z weeber: I would like it to expand as:
2019-04-26T08:13:52Z weeber: (list 'test 'h 1 (list 'toto 1) (list 'toto 2))
2019-04-26T08:14:00Z weeber: I have written:
2019-04-26T08:14:24Z weeber: (define-syntax toto
2019-04-26T08:14:33Z weeber:  (syntax-rules ()
2019-04-26T08:14:54Z weeber:   ((_ x) (list x))))
2019-04-26T08:15:05Z weeber: (define-syntax test
2019-04-26T08:15:20Z weeber:  (syntax-rules ()
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2019-04-26T08:15:53Z weeber:   ((_ x) (list x))))
2019-04-26T08:16:05Z rain1: it might be easier to define using ... pattern
2019-04-26T08:16:45Z rain1: oh wait a sec, the way you are doing it can actually work if you just change it a bit
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2019-04-26T08:17:07Z pjb: webshinra: https://pastebin.com/b2rjLcCY
2019-04-26T08:17:09Z pjb: weeber: https://pastebin.com/b2rjLcCY
2019-04-26T08:17:26Z rain1: toto is ok but test needs changed (_ (h ...) . rest) (list h ... . rest)  maybe
2019-04-26T08:17:29Z weeber: I dont know how to apply the fist syntax rule properly and recursivly
2019-04-26T08:18:26Z pjb: weeber: I would say you need to wrap each element of the body in a macro to perform the expansion.
2019-04-26T08:18:41Z pjb: It could be the test macro itself.
2019-04-26T08:19:21Z weeber: thanks
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2019-04-26T08:22:23Z pjb: weeber: hygienic macros are too complicated for me…
2019-04-26T08:23:41Z weeber: pjb: hum, for me too :D
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2019-04-26T08:41:18Z pjb: weeber:  do you really need such a macro?
2019-04-26T08:42:02Z pjb: (expand-code '(test (h 1) (toto 1) (toto 2))) -> (list (quote test) (list (quote h) (quote 1)) (list (quote toto) (quote 1)) (list (quote toto) (quote 2)))
2019-04-26T08:42:09Z pjb: (list (quote test) (list (quote h) (quote 1)) (list (quote toto) (quote 1)) (list (quote toto) (quote 2))) -> (test (h 1) (toto 1) (toto 2))
2019-04-26T08:43:55Z pjb: So you could just do: (define-syntax test (syntax-rules () ((test arg ...) '(test arg ...))))
2019-04-26T08:46:14Z pjb: In the worst case, if you need a fresh tree, then you can expand to (copy-tree '(test arg ...))
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2019-04-26T09:57:37Z sclme: Hello, I'm a beginner that just got into scheme and got quite confused when opening files. Link to code (6 lines): https://pastebin.com/q0wCC7mb The description of the problem is in the file. Briefly: opening a file through the interpreter works, but opening it in a "loaded source file" doesn't. Does anybody know why this happens and how to fix it?
2019-04-26T09:58:21Z rain1: itt's because close-input-port happened
2019-04-26T09:58:26Z rain1: before you execute (func)
2019-04-26T09:58:38Z rain1: try moving that inside the lambda
2019-04-26T09:59:08Z sclme: oh I see, thank you
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2019-04-26T11:24:40Z pjb: sclme: This page is no longer available. It has either expired, been removed by its creator, or removed by one of the Pastebin staff.
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2019-04-26T12:04:23Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-04-26T13:30:22Z amz3: TIL: srfi-1 count https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#count
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2019-04-26T14:09:30Z lambdapanda: hi! I just finished SICP and I have a few projects I'd like to implement in Scheme. I was planning to write them in MIT/GNU Scheme but I'm not sure if it's the best scheme implementation to use in terms of libraries and tooling
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2019-04-26T14:10:42Z lambdapanda: so I'm wondering what scheme implementation is commonly used nowadays to make stuff, especially if graphics are involved
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2019-04-26T14:22:55Z siraben: Racket is a common suggestion
2019-04-26T14:23:12Z siraben: It's a different language in it's own regard but sufficiently Scheme-like
2019-04-26T14:23:32Z siraben: It has a solid GUI library too
2019-04-26T14:25:55Z lambdapanda: Ok I'll check  it out
2019-04-26T14:26:01Z lambdapanda: Thanks!
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2019-04-26T14:33:23Z hugo: lambdapanda: I personally like guile a fair bit more than racket. Something about it just seems "better".
2019-04-26T14:33:39Z hugo: It does however have some limits when it comes to graphics.
2019-04-26T14:34:40Z lambdapanda: hugo: Yeah I just found a link to Guile via the schemers wiki. Looks promising
2019-04-26T14:35:44Z lambdapanda: one of the projects I'm working on is porting a C++ 2d simulation into scheme, which is why I wanted good graphics support
2019-04-26T14:35:46Z wasamasa: CHICKEN is another one with many libraries
2019-04-26T14:36:00Z wasamasa: I ported a few GUI things to it, but unfortunately none of them are particularly usable
2019-04-26T14:36:23Z hugo: The guile documentation talks a bit about porting C programs into scheme
2019-04-26T14:36:25Z wasamasa: the overall best egg is still pstk (the portable scheme tk interface)
2019-04-26T14:36:43Z wasamasa: as for drawing, you have cairo, sdl2, imlib2 and lots of opengl-related things
2019-04-26T14:37:05Z wasamasa: most recently a binding for libepoxy
2019-04-26T14:37:21Z hugo: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Programming-Overview.html#Programming-Overview
2019-04-26T14:37:31Z hugo: Gives an example of how Guile and C interacts.
2019-04-26T14:38:24Z hugo: I'm currently working myself on extending guile-cairo to support drawing to an X window
2019-04-26T14:38:50Z Mayoi is now known as erkin
2019-04-26T14:39:04Z z0d: when I want to do graphics, I usually do it via SDL
2019-04-26T14:39:10Z lambdapanda: wasamasa: CHICKEN looks interesting. I've used sdl before so I guess I'll give that a try. Thanks for the info!
2019-04-26T14:40:10Z wasamasa: I'm currently porting said eggs to the new major release
2019-04-26T14:40:14Z hugo: I have actually written some SDL bindings for Guile. But I *really* advice against using them
2019-04-26T14:40:21Z wasamasa: in case you're missing something, let us know on #chicken
2019-04-26T14:41:03Z lambdapanda: hugo: I guess if I use Guile I'll follow the integration approach in the link you sent. It might be the best of both worlds
2019-04-26T14:42:51Z wasamasa: there's a blog post where something similar is explained for CHICKEN in the context of a 3d engine: http://alex-charlton.com/posts/Prototype_to_polish_Making_games_in_CHICKEN_Scheme_with_Hypergiant/#appendix-a-why-chicken-scheme
2019-04-26T14:42:51Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/jogAJdxsps
2019-04-26T14:43:14Z wasamasa: > […] working in a high-level language and using a low-level language when speed is needed.
2019-04-26T14:43:22Z wasamasa: you can just use inline C if you need it
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2019-04-26T14:46:28Z hugo: wasamasa: Do you have any example of inline C?
2019-04-26T14:46:36Z lambdapanda: wasamasa: that looks really useful. performance definitely is an issue for my 2d simulation. I'm aiming for really high framerates (120+ fps) and I'll be happy if I achieved that using a scheme
2019-04-26T14:47:24Z wasamasa: hugo: yeah, I wrote this one for fun: https://github.com/wasamasa/tools/blob/master/adf2mp3.scm
2019-04-26T14:47:43Z wasamasa: hugo: it converts a GTA music file to mp3
2019-04-26T14:49:21Z hugo: That was a bit anticlimatic...
2019-04-26T14:49:30Z wasamasa: only works for GTA III and GTA:VC though :D
2019-04-26T14:49:44Z wasamasa: the later ones employ a not nearly as simple scheme
2019-04-26T14:49:47Z hugo: But it's I feel like it would be a really useful feature to have some times.
2019-04-26T14:50:08Z wasamasa: right, I mostly use it when writing a binding to a C library and a function doesn't work as is with it
2019-04-26T14:50:23Z wasamasa: so I drop some inline C to improve the interface a bit
2019-04-26T14:50:27Z hugo: How is chicken with calling functions from shared objects, using only scheme?
2019-04-26T14:50:36Z hugo: Guile does it, but it's rather clumsy
2019-04-26T14:50:53Z wasamasa: you'll need to write and compile a module which can be 100% scheme
2019-04-26T14:51:03Z wasamasa: or 99% if you use foreign-lambda*
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2019-04-26T14:51:46Z hugo: How you mean? I meant calling an existing function from an .so file
2019-04-26T14:52:17Z wasamasa: right, so you write a module in scheme that defines foreign functions, link it against the .so and can load it from other scheme code
2019-04-26T14:52:37Z hugo: yes
2019-04-26T14:52:45Z wasamasa: see https://github.com/wasamasa/breadline/blob/master/breadline-impl.scm for an example of various techniques
2019-04-26T14:53:29Z wasamasa: the big difference to other languages so far is that it's neither a pure C interface (where you write the binding code in C) nor a purely runtime interface (where the functions must fit your dynamic FFI)
2019-04-26T14:54:24Z wasamasa: I haven't looked yet how other scheme implementations do it, guile might be worth a look
2019-04-26T14:54:29Z hugo: https://git.hornquist.se/calparse/tree/module/terminal/termios.scm
2019-04-26T14:54:42Z wasamasa: what doesn't work nearly as well is embedding scheme in a C program
2019-04-26T14:54:56Z wasamasa: but then, we have guile and chibi for that
2019-04-26T14:55:00Z hugo: I have some FFI stuff here. Towards the bottom I create the actuall FFI bindings with the #$ operator
2019-04-26T14:55:34Z hugo: Actually embedding guile in C and C in guile is almost the same process
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2019-04-26T14:58:09Z lambdapanda: Another beginner question:  since you can modify the program while it's running when using an interpreted scheme (as a part of the debugging process), I'm wondering that means I'd be able to hot-reload graphics when running an interpreted scheme graphics program
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2019-04-26T14:58:51Z wasamasa: you can indeed do that
2019-04-26T14:59:03Z wasamasa: the trickiest part is to keep the program running, even if you end up making a mistake
2019-04-26T14:59:28Z wasamasa: this can be done with CHICKEN, but its interpreter is rather slow and sometimes its behavior diverges from the compiler
2019-04-26T14:59:36Z lambdapanda: wasamasa: would that depend on the particular graphics library I'm using?
2019-04-26T14:59:45Z hugo: I had an SDL program in Gulie that was interactive enough. But once I closed the window there was no way to get it back except restart everything
2019-04-26T14:59:53Z wasamasa: probably
2019-04-26T15:00:01Z wasamasa: you should try, make a video and show other people
2019-04-26T15:00:15Z wasamasa: there's a regular on #chicken who occasionally does live streams about graphics programming
2019-04-26T15:00:21Z hugo: But all graphics libraries can in theory be run interactively
2019-04-26T15:01:19Z lambdapanda: hugo: I don't mind the limitation of having to restart everything. I'll look  into Guile with SDL
2019-04-26T15:01:31Z lambdapanda: wasamasa: do you have the name of those streams?
2019-04-26T15:01:55Z hugo: https://github.com/HugoNikanor/GuileGamesh/blob/master/src/sdl_scm.c
2019-04-26T15:02:04Z hugo: Here are my bad SDL bindings.
2019-04-26T15:02:17Z hugo: And I think I remember that those that existed were also bad
2019-04-26T15:02:24Z hugo: But I might be wrong on that
2019-04-26T15:03:51Z wasamasa: lambdapanda: good question, you might find them on https://loutre.info/@Kooda
2019-04-26T15:04:21Z lambdapanda: hugo: thanks for the link. Nice repo name btw hahaha
2019-04-26T15:04:53Z lambdapanda: wasamasa: thanks a lot for the link, I really appreciate it
2019-04-26T15:05:11Z wasamasa: that's his social media thing, I think I spotted them there, but can't find them now
2019-04-26T15:05:34Z lambdapanda: wasamasa: no worries I'm sure I'll find it
2019-04-26T15:06:13Z hugo: lambdapanda: Thanks! It's my toy game engine that I'm very slowly (not) working on.
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2019-04-26T15:07:48Z lambdapanda: hugo: can't blame you. game engines are a huge headache
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2019-04-26T15:09:37Z hugo: It also has some poorly made abstractions in there, making everything exponentially more dificullt to work with...
2019-04-26T15:09:51Z wasamasa: on #lispgames people spend seemingly all time creating game engines instead of games
2019-04-26T15:10:00Z wasamasa: or maybe they just prefer talking about them
2019-04-26T15:10:27Z wasamasa: eventually the lisp game jam gained a rule where it's permitted for you to create your engine and so on before it starts
2019-04-26T15:10:47Z johnjay: lispgames exists!!?
2019-04-26T15:10:49Z johnjay: WHOA
2019-04-26T15:10:59Z lambdapanda: emacs has tetris
2019-04-26T15:11:05Z lambdapanda: technically that's a lisp game :P
2019-04-26T15:11:13Z johnjay proceeds to spend all time creating game engines instead of games
2019-04-26T15:11:27Z wasamasa: it's listed as a reference on the lisp game jam website
2019-04-26T15:11:48Z hugo: Engines are just more interesting.
2019-04-26T15:11:58Z hugo: An actuall game has level design and enemies.
2019-04-26T15:12:04Z hugo: An engine has datastructures and math!
2019-04-26T15:12:31Z wasamasa: or used to be, they moved it elsewhere :<
2019-04-26T15:13:33Z lambdapanda: another beginner question: should i stay away from lisp and stick to scheme for simplicity, as a beginner?
2019-04-26T15:13:42Z lambdapanda: and by lisp i mean CL
2019-04-26T15:14:06Z hugo: I would recomend sticking to just scheme for a while. Just to avoid mixing up the two in your mind
2019-04-26T15:14:24Z hugo: Since they are very similar but also sometimes quite different
2019-04-26T15:15:43Z amz3: it difficult to learn two languages at the same time anyway
2019-04-26T15:15:51Z amz3: even if they are both lisps
2019-04-26T15:15:57Z lambdapanda: my main use case will be creating 2d simulations and 2d generative art. I'm migrating from C++/Java because I felt restricted by the coding style and having to compile every time i make a tiny change (which has to happen a lot when doing exploratory work)
2019-04-26T15:16:33Z lambdapanda: after going through sicp i realized scheme is a great alternative
2019-04-26T15:16:37Z johnjay: lambdapanda: i know racket has graphics because i did homework assignments with fractals in them
2019-04-26T15:16:43Z johnjay: so try that
2019-04-26T15:16:54Z lambdapanda: johnjay: yeah someone recommended racket above. I'll definitely check it out
2019-04-26T15:17:14Z lambdapanda: but performance is an issue for me because I run animations with a lot of number crunching
2019-04-26T15:17:22Z johnjay: chicken may have graphical bindings. i'm just not sure
2019-04-26T15:17:25Z lambdapanda: e.g. thousands of particles constantly being updated
2019-04-26T15:17:34Z johnjay: cool. let me know if you figure out how to do that
2019-04-26T15:17:39Z johnjay: i love me some graphics stuff
2019-04-26T15:18:05Z johnjay: i'm stuck in elisp for a while longer i think so i can't help ya directly
2019-04-26T15:18:07Z lambdapanda: johnjay: sure. I'll probably start a blog with a list of tutorials once I figure it out (assuming nothign similar exists)
2019-04-26T15:21:32Z amz3: lambdapanda: fwiw, there is c++ cad tool that embeds guile https://libfive.com/
2019-04-26T15:22:19Z lambdapanda: amz3: looks interesting
2019-04-26T15:22:37Z lambdapanda: i might also use GIMP to generate the frames one by one
2019-04-26T15:22:42Z lambdapanda: looks like you can script it in scheme
2019-04-26T15:22:47Z amz3: many people in #guile were wondering why it does embedding instead of cffi ymmv
2019-04-26T15:23:45Z lambdapanda: at this point im feeling overwhelmed with the amount of learning I need to do
2019-04-26T15:23:53Z amz3: ?
2019-04-26T15:23:58Z lambdapanda: this whole scheme/lisp situation is such a rabbit hole
2019-04-26T15:24:02Z amz3: lambdapanda: step by step :)
2019-04-26T15:24:07Z amz3: lambdapanda: ah that is true.
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2019-04-26T15:24:13Z johnjay: ~day by day~
2019-04-26T15:24:35Z amz3: lambdapanda: if you only consider scheme, it is already a rabbit hole.
2019-04-26T15:25:00Z lambdapanda: yeah
2019-04-26T15:25:20Z lambdapanda: well here's another question I guess: what books to read after SICP?
2019-04-26T15:25:33Z johnjay: lambdapanda: i think i ask this question semi frequently in here
2019-04-26T15:25:42Z johnjay: lisp in small pieces, little schemer, HTDP are usually mentioned
2019-04-26T15:25:56Z johnjay: also the original lambda papers by Guy steele and that one by Paul mcCarthy
2019-04-26T15:26:03Z lambdapanda: i looked at those but it seems there is a lot of overlap with SICP
2019-04-26T15:26:10Z amz3: I did not read SCIP I can not tell, I mostly hack around projects
2019-04-26T15:26:24Z johnjay: yeah at some point you just have to dive into that
2019-04-26T15:26:29Z amz3: lambdapanda: also, I need to point out that there is an existing guile-sdl2 bindings at https://dthompson.us/projects/guile-sdl2.html
2019-04-26T15:26:34Z lambdapanda: i was looking into the lambda papers as well but those are high level concepts. i was wondering if there are project-oriented books for practical stuff
2019-04-26T15:26:40Z johnjay: hacking around projects and trying to figure out what function makes the pixels blue
2019-04-26T15:27:07Z amz3: lambdapanda: something like 500 lines or less or similar?
2019-04-26T15:27:11Z lambdapanda: amz3: thanks for the link. i've used SDL before so this should feel familiar to me hopefully
2019-04-26T15:27:50Z lambdapanda: amz3: yeah i guess
2019-04-26T15:28:04Z amz3: lambdapanda: by the way, the maintainer is working on it even if it might look not-maintained.
2019-04-26T15:28:41Z lambdapanda: i see
2019-04-26T15:28:51Z lambdapanda: someone recommended i read practical common lisp
2019-04-26T15:29:02Z lambdapanda: but i dont wanna dive into CL yet. the book is project oriented tho
2019-04-26T15:29:21Z hugo: Land of Lisp is another good project oriented book
2019-04-26T15:29:27Z hugo: But it's also in CL.
2019-04-26T15:29:27Z amz3: the last release is recent 2018-10-16 — 0.3.1
2019-04-26T15:29:49Z lambdapanda: hugo: land of lisp is too whimsical for me hehehe
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2019-04-26T15:30:40Z wasamasa: there's a revision of Land of Lisp using racket
2019-04-26T15:30:45Z wasamasa: Realm of Racket
2019-04-26T15:30:49Z hugo: I can understand that. I just really liked how quick it got stuff done
2019-04-26T15:32:16Z rain1: I'm thinking of using this https://stackoverflow.com/questions/47248045/webassembly-calling-javascript-methods-from-wasm-i-e-whithin-c-code
2019-04-26T15:32:16Z rudybot: https://teensy.info/BI7qU8DeVP
2019-04-26T15:32:19Z rain1: with single_cream
2019-04-26T15:32:27Z rain1: to reimplement biwaschemes js-ref and js-invoke features
2019-04-26T15:32:54Z rain1: but just occured to me that it doesn't have vectors, so it will be slow too
2019-04-26T15:32:56Z rain1: no point
2019-04-26T15:33:03Z hugo: wasamasa: Cool! Might take a read through it
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2019-04-26T15:38:56Z johnjay: i was thinking the best way to learn is to write some code and debug it
2019-04-26T15:39:10Z johnjay: and the best way to debug is with divide-and-conquer aka binary search
2019-04-26T15:39:19Z johnjay: so how does one right code so that it can most easily be bisected?
2019-04-26T15:39:27Z johnjay: *write
2019-04-26T15:40:34Z lambdapanda: I'm not sure divide-and-conquer is the best way to debug
2019-04-26T15:41:30Z lambdapanda: this comment from hn stuck with me (regarding debugging): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19463183
2019-04-26T15:41:31Z rain1: i use a mix of strategies to debug and that's one of them
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2019-04-26T15:43:50Z johnjay: i'm thinking specifically when learning a new api or system
2019-04-26T15:44:02Z johnjay: and you are 80% sure what something does but you know there's a few errors and have to find them quickly
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2019-04-26T16:20:28Z rain1: I added a new bug to my scheme interpreter
2019-04-26T16:20:35Z siraben: johnjay: I use Guile's tracing to aid in debugging
2019-04-26T16:20:38Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/single_cream/issues/10
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2019-04-26T16:23:14Z amz3: hey rain
2019-04-26T16:27:31Z rain1: hi
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2019-04-26T17:52:37Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-04-26T18:38:31Z amz3: rudybot: doing good scheme?
2019-04-26T18:38:33Z rudybot: amz3: Honestly I think a good professor, with average freshman, would be doing /great/ if they could thoroughly cover 1/8th to 1/4th what's in that book in a semester. Mind you this conversation started with "why start people on Python if SICP is so great". My answer is "Python is more familiar and almost /forces/ good habits, unlike Scheme" and "this does not mean SICP is any less awesome /for non-freshman/".
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2019-04-26T19:39:56Z rain1: i had a go at trying to change the memory model but it was too difficult for now
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2019-04-26T21:18:40Z amz3: and it is the week end :)
2019-04-26T21:18:45Z amz3: time to rest... a bit.
2019-04-26T21:26:48Z amz3 try to implement (scheme hashmap) on top of guile-pfds
2019-04-26T21:27:03Z amz3: s/hashmap/mapping hash/
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2019-04-26T21:45:47Z dTal: what good habits does Python force that Scheme doesn't?
2019-04-26T21:46:12Z wasamasa: docstrings
2019-04-26T21:46:32Z dTal: but it doesn't force those...
2019-04-26T21:47:07Z wasamasa: well, I've relaxed the meaning a bit
2019-04-26T21:47:27Z wasamasa: realistically speaking python only forces correct syntax which includes the indentation not being completely off
2019-04-26T21:47:42Z wasamasa: otherwise the question wouldn't have a meaningful answer
2019-04-26T21:47:46Z dTal: It certainly encourages a different programming style, nudging you away from functional and towards imperative / OO
2019-04-26T21:48:14Z wasamasa: but it doesn't force those...
2019-04-26T21:48:14Z dTal: whether this is "good" is a matter of opinion, though I'm inclined to think it isn't on the whole
2019-04-26T21:48:34Z dTal: It forces single-line lambdas
2019-04-26T21:48:41Z amz3: dTal: it force the use of indentation blocks
2019-04-26T21:49:01Z amz3: dTal: but the effect of that is motly broken because of multiline list comprehension
2019-04-26T21:49:45Z amz3: dTal: maybe lambda can not have assignemented and be multiline
2019-04-26T21:50:51Z Zipheir: Maybe it encourages you to use efficient algorithms, since Python is so damn slow.
2019-04-26T21:51:11Z wasamasa: lol
2019-04-26T21:51:17Z wasamasa: plenty of python uses C inside
2019-04-26T21:51:50Z dTal: Zipheir: heh, it probably really does too
2019-04-26T21:53:06Z dTal: Python's indentation is an odd thing to hold over scheme, since scheme can (and should) be indented automatically
2019-04-26T21:53:30Z dTal: which solves the same problem that significant indentation solves, but from the other end
2019-04-26T21:54:29Z Zipheir: Does it?  The point of syntactic whitespace is to make the code easier to read by getting rid of unnecessary braces, AFAICT
2019-04-26T21:54:53Z Zipheir: Not to beat the programmer into stylistic submission.
2019-04-26T21:55:11Z dTal: I thought the point was to eliminate inconsistent braces and whitespace by doing away with braces, since in a block language you should be indenting properly anyway
2019-04-26T21:55:43Z dTal: I didn't think I'd encounter the opinion that braces make a language hard to read in #scheme :p
2019-04-26T21:55:56Z Zipheir: Which is sort of the same thing.
2019-04-26T21:56:57Z dTal: Sort of, but also sort of not. It's not that the braces are confusing - it's that braces and indentation encode the same thing redundantly to the computer and human redundantly, and havoc ensues when they disagree
2019-04-26T21:57:19Z dTal: the python way is to only use indentation, and the scheme way is to only use braces
2019-04-26T21:57:20Z Zipheir: I don't think braces make a language hard to read.  Scheme's style conventions seem more readable to me than, say, C's, where there are many brackets that show up in many different places.
2019-04-26T21:57:44Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-04-26T21:57:47Z dTal: oops I said "redundantly" redundantly
2019-04-26T21:58:02Z Zipheir: :)
2019-04-26T21:58:05Z dTal: :p
2019-04-26T21:58:52Z Zipheir: According to the spec, Python's whitespace conventions have a number of dark corners, however.
2019-04-26T21:59:13Z Zipheir: Haskell's layout conventions seem fairly straightforward, in comparison.
2019-04-26T21:59:42Z Zipheir: The larger problem is that whitespace is considered meaningless by most software and many people.
2019-04-26T21:59:43Z dTal: I'm consistently impressed by whatever algorithm Chez's "pretty-print" function uses
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2019-04-26T22:00:59Z dTal: I often use it in the repl to get a better view of whatever structure I've cobbled together, or before pasting it into an editor. I wish there were an editor that reformatted scheme code on every keystroke.
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2019-04-26T22:01:24Z dTal: I suppose someone will now tell me I can use Emacs for that...
2019-04-26T22:04:03Z Zipheir: Hand-formatting code slows a programmer down, thus making it harder to be idiotic.
2019-04-26T22:09:24Z Zipheir: (the real annoyance of auto-formatting Scheme is getting the formatter to correctly handle all the special forms.)
2019-04-26T22:14:22Z z0d: who does that anyway?
2019-04-26T22:14:40Z wasamasa: vim users?
2019-04-26T22:15:16Z dTal: who does what?
2019-04-26T22:15:24Z dTal: autoformatting?
2019-04-26T22:24:12Z z0d: wasamasa: I doubt it
2019-04-26T22:24:44Z z0d: even vim has autoindent
2019-04-26T22:25:11Z wasamasa: formatprg is a thing
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2019-04-26T22:57:14Z pjb: dTal: you can always use emacs for that.  Whatever "that" is.
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2019-04-27T09:03:58Z str1ngs: dTal: there is srefeactor for emacs
2019-04-27T09:04:27Z str1ngs: srefactor*
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2019-04-27T21:44:42Z rain1: i should try to use chibi scheme with an ffi to invoke js
2019-04-27T21:44:47Z rain1: lazy..
2019-04-27T21:44:57Z rain1: it could be really useful if it works though
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2019-04-28T00:49:21Z lambdapanda: hi! I’m wondering if anyone knows the popularity ranking of various schemes (Guile, Racket, CHICKEN, Gerbil, etc). If switching between those variants is hard, I want to make sure I choose the most popular one to learn first (with the assumption that popularity hopefully corresponds to more useful libraries/links/tutorials/documentation/etc)
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2019-04-28T01:08:44Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: Switching between those Schemes isn't hard.
2019-04-28T01:10:13Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: that’s good to know, but what if I used some OOP in one of them? My understanding (which could be wrong) is that OOP is implementation dependent
2019-04-28T01:10:23Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: That's correct.
2019-04-28T01:11:05Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: I see
2019-04-28T01:11:38Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: If you use an object system a lot, yes, you'll be writing for one implementation at the moment.
2019-04-28T01:12:32Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: But if you're just learning Scheme, you may not use OOP much.
2019-04-28T01:13:45Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: yeah one of the reasons I’m diving into this is due to how much I disliked working with OOP but some stuff will be hard to write purely functionally (at least for a noob like me)
2019-04-28T01:14:24Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: I guess I’ll try to stick to Racket for now
2019-04-28T01:15:46Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: It's probably obvious, but worth mentioning, that not being able to do something functionally doesn't mean you need to use an object system.
2019-04-28T01:16:45Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: yeah absolutely. It’s just that OOP is what I’m most comfortable with and I’m striving to learn the pure functional style out of interest
2019-04-28T01:18:19Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: Right.  Racket's a good choice if you're learning functional programming, since it can do damn near anything.
2019-04-28T01:20:29Z Zipheir: ... though it's arguably not an orthodox Scheme anymore, what with getting rid of set-car!/cdr!
2019-04-28T01:20:35Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: yeah it seems pretty impressive. Performance doesn’t seem bad either
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2019-04-28T01:23:28Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: woah I didn’t know Racket got rid of those. why would they do that?!
2019-04-28T01:24:24Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2007/11/getting-rid-of-set-car-and-set-cdr.html
2019-04-28T01:24:54Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: thanks for the link, I’ll check it out :)
2019-04-28T01:25:03Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: They're rarely used in programs, though getting rid of them changes the language quite a bit.
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2019-04-28T01:26:22Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: I got used to them due to SICP hehehe
2019-04-28T01:31:38Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: Right, SICP uses them a lot.  Modern Schemes have direct implementations of things like mutable queues, so you don't need to hack them up out of pairs.
2019-04-28T01:33:31Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: yeah I guess they’re mainly useful when you’re doing everything almost from scratch. I liked the reasoning given by the link you sent above
2019-04-28T01:35:17Z Zipheir: SRFI-116 is the way to get immutable lists in the non-Racket world.
2019-04-28T01:38:09Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: Thanks I’ll check it out!
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2019-04-28T01:41:47Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: If you've been through SICP, you may want to look at The Scheme Programming Language next https://www.scheme.com/tspl4
2019-04-28T01:43:07Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: And, of course, the R7RS standard https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs/src/draft-10/rnrs/r7rs.pdf
2019-04-28T01:43:29Z lambdapanda: Ziphier: yeah I finished SICP a few days ago and was wondering what to read next as I try to write some projects
2019-04-28T01:43:47Z lambdapanda: Zipheir: thanks a lot for the links I really appreciate it!
2019-04-28T01:44:28Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: yw!
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2019-04-28T01:50:35Z siraben: lambdapanda: Scheme is fun, people have written anything from games to assemblers and compilers
2019-04-28T01:52:12Z lambdapanda: siraben: Yeah it definitely has been really fun so far. I initially got the impression that it’s mostly used for learning purposes (to write other languages) but I’m slowly realizing it’s being used for a lot more. I still have no clue if it’s used for serious projects in industry, tho
2019-04-28T01:53:04Z lambdapanda: siraben: my impression so far is that it’s mainly for academic/hobbyist purposes but I may be wrong
2019-04-28T01:56:20Z pjb: lambdapanda: yes, people also use scheme for serious programs.
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2019-04-28T01:59:26Z Zipheir: lambdapanda: My impression is that some 'industry' is getting into Clojure these days, which is sort of HipsterScheme.
2019-04-28T01:59:29Z lambdapanda: pjb: are there any companies known to primarily use scheme in production?
2019-04-28T02:00:24Z pjb: https://www.indeed.com/q-Scheme-Lisp-jobs.html
2019-04-28T02:00:43Z pjb: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/scheme-programming-jobs/
2019-04-28T02:01:20Z lambdapanda: awesome thanks!
2019-04-28T02:07:33Z siraben: Common Lisp (not Scheme) is sometimes used in production it seems
2019-04-28T02:13:42Z Zipheir: siraben: Any examples?
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2019-04-28T02:14:40Z siraben: http://flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html
2019-04-28T02:14:59Z siraben: But it's more of a "demise of lisp at JPL" story
2019-04-28T02:15:16Z siraben: https://github.com/nasa/pvslib
2019-04-28T02:15:27Z siraben: Nevertheless they still seem to have a significant portion of their library in Lisp
2019-04-28T02:16:02Z siraben: For their formal methods development
2019-04-28T02:17:17Z Zipheir: Interesting, though.
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2019-04-28T02:18:54Z Zipheir: Oh, 'Lisping at JPL' is by Ron Garret who did that talk on REPL-debugging Deep Space 1 :)
2019-04-28T02:20:32Z Zipheir: Sad that the (Lisp) Remote Agent system was name "NASA Software of the Year" immediately before NASA gave up on Lisp.
2019-04-28T02:20:36Z Zipheir: *was named
2019-04-28T02:23:27Z Zipheir: "Now, you might expect that with a track record like that, with one technological success after another, that NASA would be rushing to embrace Lisp. And you would, of course, be wrong."
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2019-04-28T02:41:29Z daviid: lambdapanda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp#Applications
2019-04-28T02:42:12Z daviid: a list which seems incomplete ... not we hve such a page for scheme, which would be nice
2019-04-28T02:43:24Z lambdapanda: daviid: yeah i’ve stumbled upon this list earlier. I was hoping to find a scheme version
2019-04-28T02:43:49Z daviid: *not sure we have such a page ... I believe racket might have a few 'success' stories', but I don't know for sure
2019-04-28T02:47:03Z lambdapanda: daviid: yeah I’ll keep looking. TBH I’m really confused as to why scheme/CL is not mainstream in the tech industry despite being there longer than most other languages. Anyway, I’m sure this discussion was had a million times before. I’m just another newbie who’s surprised by this hahaha
2019-04-28T02:47:31Z Zipheir: Parentheses and lack of lisp programmers, probably.
2019-04-28T02:47:56Z daviid: lambdapanda: you might be interested to look at Guix and GuixSD, the web page lists 'some stories about ...' https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/
2019-04-28T02:48:02Z Zipheir: Oh, Scheme success stories: There's always GIMP with its horrible TinyScheme embedding!
2019-04-28T02:49:38Z Zipheir: And various other GNU projects using Guile, of course.
2019-04-28T02:50:10Z daviid: Gimp uses Guile, no? Though not a 'industry story', which was the original question ...
2019-04-28T02:50:32Z Zipheir: No, TinyScheme.  Everyone thinks it's Guile.  It _should_ be Guile.
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2019-04-28T02:52:06Z daviid: Lilypond uses Guile, fwiw
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2019-04-28T02:52:19Z Zipheir: Yes, that's an interesting example.
2019-04-28T02:53:10Z daviid: lambdapanda: you may even contribute to Guix, even as a scheme beginner
2019-04-28T02:53:58Z lambdapanda: daviid: I have a ton of free time on my hands and I’d totally be interested in contributing to scheme projects that don’t mind scheme beginners
2019-04-28T02:54:51Z lambdapanda: I’ll check out their contribution page
2019-04-28T02:55:40Z daviid: lambdapanda: you may talk to the guix folks on #guix, they are very friendly and very welcoming
2019-04-28T02:56:33Z lambdapanda: daviid: good to know. Thanks for the info!
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2019-04-28T02:57:26Z daviid: Zipheir: yes, lilypond is a good example, a good project as well, they have a few good schemers there :)
2019-04-28T02:58:14Z Zipheir: daviid: I've used it for years, it's the gold standard of scorewriting software. :)
2019-04-28T02:59:16Z daviid: Zipheir: oh, cool
2019-04-28T03:00:26Z Zipheir: daviid: That being said, I wish the whole Lilypond compiler were in Scheme rather than C++ with a Scheme topping...
2019-04-28T03:00:48Z daviid: Zipheir: so do I
2019-04-28T03:03:02Z daviid: I am to busy, but I think about that from time to time, contributing to lilypond, for that aim, getting rid of C++, but it is (would be) a huge task (several years imo)
2019-04-28T03:04:25Z Zipheir: Indeed.  It's reasonably sane C++, but some of the low-level parts (I tried to figure out the postscript-emitting components a few years back, for example) are really hairy.
2019-04-28T03:07:58Z Zipheir: Weird.  It seems LilyPond isn't interested in Scheme contributions.  WTH.  http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/contributor/languages
2019-04-28T03:08:40Z Zipheir: Well, I guess LilyPond is going to hell :)
2019-04-28T03:13:35Z daviid: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/contributor/lilypond-programming-languages
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2019-04-28T03:55:34Z Zipheir: "Programmers unfamiliar with C++ will need to spend some time to learn the language ..." Understatement-of-the-year award candidate there.
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2019-04-28T08:38:23Z nisstyre: I like Racket the most because I can actually get shit done in it
2019-04-28T08:38:45Z nisstyre: and the documentation is A++
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2019-04-28T08:39:05Z nisstyre: it definitely is not the most efficient with memory though
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2019-04-28T10:24:12Z brendyyn: Zipheir: i think the author was banned from the guile list for being rude or something. and guile changed lots introducing incompatibility, leaving them on 1.8. maybe thats related
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2019-04-28T17:08:18Z johnjay: nisstyre: i wish i understood the different schemes well enough to compare them
2019-04-28T17:08:24Z johnjay: i guess that would involve using each one
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2019-04-28T18:20:36Z jcowan: Here's a naming problem I'm having: I want verbs meaning "to translate an object from one having an external representation to one that does not" and the converse.  I have been using "expand" (and "unexpand") by analogy with macro expansion, but whereas macro expansion typically does produce a larger object, this operation may (e.g.) collapse a list into a single instance.
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2019-04-28T18:30:54Z ggole: You could probably do that in German, seems tough in English.
2019-04-28T18:31:15Z ggole: Are "make representable" and "make nonrepresentable" not accurate?
2019-04-28T18:32:01Z ggole: (Maybe "serialisable" instead of "representable".)
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2019-04-28T18:36:57Z nisstyre: johnjay: there is not a massive difference between them at a surface level
2019-04-28T18:37:07Z nisstyre: johnjay: the differences mostly come down to libraries that they support beyond the standard
2019-04-28T18:37:14Z nisstyre: and compiler techniques like JIT, etc
2019-04-28T18:37:38Z nisstyre: Racket is technically not a Scheme because it supports other languages like Datalog, Scribble, etc
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2019-04-28T18:47:57Z rain1: well also not scheme because they got rid of set-car! and set-cdr!
2019-04-28T18:48:04Z rain1: which is very inconvenient
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2019-04-28T18:57:24Z johnjay: you can't be scheme without set-car! and set-cdr! ?
2019-04-28T18:59:35Z Zipheir: Not standard scheme, certainly.
2019-04-28T19:00:10Z rain1: all the scheme code i have that uses those two functions no longer works on racket
2019-04-28T19:00:46Z rain1: it's possible to rewrite/refactor it so it can, but that's actually quite different without static typing
2019-04-28T19:00:46Z Zipheir: Since lists are used in the syntax of the language itself, having them not be mutable makes a bigger difference than one might at first assume.
2019-04-28T19:02:25Z weinholt: rain1, plt-r6rs has (rnrs mutable-pairs)
2019-04-28T19:03:11Z rain1: interesting, is it good? will it display them right and stuff?
2019-04-28T19:03:39Z weinholt: sure, looked fine when i tested it just now
2019-04-28T19:03:44Z rain1: great
2019-04-28T19:03:53Z rain1: it was always good to be able to recommend people use racket to do SICP
2019-04-28T19:04:05Z rain1: but when they went immutable I couldn't do that anymore
2019-04-28T19:04:18Z rain1: maybe this lang will be good enough
2019-04-28T19:05:14Z nisstyre: rain1: you can still get mutable cons cells
2019-04-28T19:05:39Z nisstyre: they just don't use the standard names
2019-04-28T19:06:51Z rain1: i know but that's awful
2019-04-28T19:07:06Z rain1: and all the existing code does not work
2019-04-28T19:07:37Z rain1: mutable conses shouldn't actually be provided - boxes are a lot more sensible
2019-04-28T19:07:49Z nisstyre: rain1: they also don't use the same `eval` as Scheme
2019-04-28T19:07:52Z nisstyre: but for good reasons imo
2019-04-28T19:08:00Z rain1: oh i didn't know about the EVAL thing
2019-04-28T19:08:10Z nisstyre: well, actually I'm not sure if it's that different
2019-04-28T19:08:22Z nisstyre: but you don't get access to the outer environment with eval
2019-04-28T19:08:27Z nisstyre: IIRC guile does the same thing right?
2019-04-28T19:09:30Z rain1: I see
2019-04-28T19:09:38Z rain1: cleaning up eval is a good idea
2019-04-28T19:11:09Z nisstyre: yeah I agree
2019-04-28T19:11:19Z nisstyre: https://blog.racket-lang.org/2011/10/on-eval-in-dynamic-languages-generally.html
2019-04-28T19:11:34Z nisstyre: eval can actually be a useful tool if you do it right
2019-04-28T19:11:43Z nisstyre: ideally it would execute the code in its own sandbox
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2019-04-28T19:11:53Z nisstyre: and you could grant it privileges as needed (least authority)
2019-04-28T19:12:07Z nisstyre: some languages actually do that, like ES6 Realms I think
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2019-04-28T19:12:33Z z0d: can't you switch Racket to SICP compatible mode?
2019-04-28T19:12:49Z nisstyre: z0d: someone made a language for SICP I think but I don't know if it's been maintained
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2019-04-28T19:13:06Z nisstyre: https://github.com/sicp-lang/sicp
2019-04-28T19:13:09Z z0d: it used to be possible I think. when it was still PLT Scheme, it surely had HtDP mode
2019-04-28T19:13:13Z nisstyre: this one looks new
2019-04-28T19:13:24Z nisstyre: z0d: yeah it does have different languages built into DrRacket
2019-04-28T19:16:36Z Zipheir: nisstyre: Thanks for the eval post, it was clear and well-reasoned.
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2019-04-28T19:38:35Z Zipheir: I notice that two forms of alist tend to show up in Scheme code: ((a . 1) (b . 2) ...) and ((a 1) (b 2) ...).  Which style do people prefer?
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2019-04-28T19:39:00Z Zipheir: It's a relevant question when you've got a procedure that asks the caller for 'an alist'.
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2019-04-28T19:39:54Z jcowan: I take "an alist" unqualified to mean the first form.  But in a sense it doesn't matter, because assoc and friends always return the whole list element.
2019-04-28T19:40:10Z jcowan: So you can extract the car and cdr, or the car and cadr, whichever you like.
2019-04-28T19:40:15Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-04-28T19:40:16Z nisstyre: Zipheir: I don't mind the dotted pairs
2019-04-28T19:40:37Z nisstyre: Zipheir: I'm assuming the second example is auto quoted right?
2019-04-28T19:40:51Z kjak: Zipheir: i prefer the former
2019-04-28T19:41:01Z jcowan: These are data structures, not Scheme code.
2019-04-28T19:41:16Z jcowan: There is also p-list format: (a 1 b 2 ...).
2019-04-28T19:41:27Z Zipheir: nisstyre: (list (list 'a 1) ...) vs (list (cons 'a 1) ...)
2019-04-28T19:41:37Z nisstyre: ah
2019-04-28T19:41:47Z nisstyre: ok, I kind of prefer the second form
2019-04-28T19:42:02Z wasamasa: you can mix both, depending on whether you expect a single or multiple values
2019-04-28T19:42:22Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-04-28T19:42:23Z wasamasa: so, ((thing . x) (things x y z))
2019-04-28T19:42:29Z wasamasa: hyde does this
2019-04-28T19:43:40Z Zipheir: It's just that in the common one-value case, you may have to do a little dance to accomodate both forms, e.g. (if (pair? (cdr p)) (cadr p) (cdr p))
2019-04-28T19:44:12Z jcowan: yes, I wouldn't do that, I'd make the caller DTRT rather than trying to adapt to random uses.
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2019-04-28T19:45:08Z Zipheir: Indeed.
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2019-04-28T19:45:56Z Zipheir: Thanks for the feedback, all. :)
2019-04-28T19:47:21Z jcowan: In R[67]RS Scheme, one-argument `eval` does not exist (though many Schemes allow it as an extension): you must always specify a particular global environment.
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2019-04-28T20:33:45Z daviid: jcowan: 'the forer do not qualify as an alist ...' is a surprise to me, I thught, back 3 decades ago, that alists wre to strictly be ((car . cdr) ...)
2019-04-28T20:34:21Z daviid: Zipheir: if you use assq-ref and friends, availabe in guile at leat, it atters, and I also prefer the former for this reason
2019-04-28T20:34:46Z jcowan: no, by "unqualified" I mean "without additional limiting words" such as "an alist of 2-element lists"
2019-04-28T20:35:07Z jcowan: so if you just talk about "an alist" by itself, it means a list of pairs.
2019-04-28T20:36:02Z daviid: right, the pair? return tre for both (which also is a suprise to me, since with have lists?
2019-04-28T20:36:15Z daviid: *pair? returns true
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2019-04-28T20:37:07Z lisbeths: So every tuesday I give a lecture in the math department at my college
2019-04-28T20:37:18Z lisbeths: and this tuesday I am going to try to add full syntactic macros to school math
2019-04-28T20:37:58Z daviid: this gives us headackes when using match to destructure, we never know if we have a pair or a list ... just curious here, why pair? would not check a strict pair, (car . cdr) and return false if not ... I wonder
2019-04-28T20:38:14Z lisbeths: oops I walked into something
2019-04-28T20:38:38Z daviid: I guess it's because it just does not how to do that
2019-04-28T20:40:27Z aeth: daviid: how could you distinguish between (cons 1 (list 2 3 4 5 6)) and (list 1 2 3 4 5 6)?
2019-04-28T20:40:36Z daviid: aeth: right
2019-04-28T20:42:02Z daviid: that's what I just mentioned, but could 'things' have been designed so it could be distinguished? hum, probably not a very usefll chat , let1s forget about this and hack :)
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2019-04-28T20:47:41Z jcowan: Lists are an application of pairs, so pair? will always return #t if list? does.
2019-04-28T20:47:56Z jcowan: There is no standard predicate for pair-whose-cdr-is-not-a-pair-or-the-empty-list.
2019-04-28T20:53:39Z jcowan: If you need one, you can easily write it (the hard part is finding a good name:  proper-pair? perhaps)
2019-04-28T20:53:58Z jcowan: "There are 2 hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-1 errors."
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2019-04-28T21:00:50Z daviid: :)
2019-04-28T21:01:20Z daviid: I thing that naming things is more difficult then cache invalidation
2019-04-28T21:01:32Z wasamasa: just try using varnish
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2019-04-28T21:13:39Z jcowan: well, of course stoopit cache invalidation is easy, so is making up stoopit names.
2019-04-28T21:14:36Z weinholt: varnish is a fine name. i'll use it for everything from now on
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2019-04-28T21:18:25Z Zipheir: Just call all your projects Nothing for Homeric PR management--"Nothing is buggy, you idiots!" "Great, glad you like it."
2019-04-28T21:19:49Z jcowan: like when the White King asks the Messager who he saw on the road, and the messenger replies "Nobody".  The king says "That's right, the young lady here [Alice] saw him too.  So of course Nobody walks slower than you."
2019-04-28T21:20:10Z jcowan: The messenger is hurt, and says "I'm sure nobody walks much faster than I do!" and the King: "He can't do that, or he'd have been here first."
2019-04-28T21:20:32Z jcowan: "messenger" is etymologically "message+er" anyhow
2019-04-28T21:23:43Z Riastradh: jcowan: `export/import'?
2019-04-28T21:24:08Z jcowan: Already in use as library terminology.
2019-04-28T21:24:44Z Riastradh: Also already use in international commerce, but that doesn't stop anyone!
2019-04-28T21:25:32Z jcowan: Not exactly the same domain.
2019-04-28T21:26:18Z Riastradh: Sure.  So if you have an operation like export-random-source, that's not going to be confused with another domain like the library language either.
2019-04-28T21:26:20Z jcowan: I'm going with internalize and externalize, or in8e and ex8e for short.
2019-04-28T21:26:31Z Riastradh: Reasonable.
2019-04-28T21:27:32Z jcowan: This is a library that knows how to in8e and ex8e a configurable set of objects.  It's meant to be an alternative approach to readtables and generic print functions.
2019-04-28T21:28:16Z jcowan: it is currently called lexmacs for lexical macros, but they aren't really macros, so I need a better name.
2019-04-28T21:29:42Z jcowan: In addition to the obvious i->e and e->i, there is also read-and-internalize, internalize-and-eval, and externalize-and-write convenience procedures.
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2019-04-28T23:31:08Z daviid: jcowan: fwiw, I much prefer the later names, and if to pick '->' onstruction, I'd be usig the full names:  internalize->externalize and externalize->internalize
2019-04-28T23:31:38Z jcowan: Oh yes, I'm not using the short names in the API, only here.
2019-04-28T23:31:54Z jcowan: But I think that 'externalize' and 'internalize' are sufficient names in this case.
2019-04-28T23:32:20Z jcowan: we need, say, list->vector and string->vector as distinct, but there is no such alternative here.
2019-04-28T23:32:58Z daviid: I'd never ever use bar8foo, it introduces a 'new' (but very bad) way of giving the user a feeling of these might do before exactly knowing what these might do  ... my 2c (no pun intnded, just opinion)
2019-04-28T23:33:30Z jcowan: R6RS/R7RS renamed exact->inexact and inexact->exact to just inexact and exact; also because unlike list->vector, inexact and exact accept arguments of the desired type also (and return them)
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2019-04-28T23:37:46Z daviid: yes, when no ambiguity is possible, better to 'shorten' names, I agree
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2019-04-29T14:05:00Z TCZ: ; )
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2019-04-30T11:02:10Z TCZ: hi...
2019-04-30T11:02:40Z ecraven: do we have an srfi for accessing variable-size bitfields from a bytevector?
2019-04-30T11:02:44Z ecraven: like you'd need with lzw
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2019-04-30T11:19:56Z jcowan: No, we don't.
2019-04-30T11:20:54Z ecraven: very much non-optimal, probably buggy, but seems to work for 3 test cases: http://ix.io/1HDm
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2019-04-30T11:55:24Z ecraven: aaand I got the bit direction in the result wrong ;)
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2019-04-30T13:38:37Z gwatt: ecraven: you could probably use a bignum for that. bitwise-bit-field does what you want there.
2019-04-30T13:39:06Z ecraven: that would be one large bignum :P
2019-04-30T13:39:08Z ecraven: but thanks!
2019-04-30T13:39:25Z gwatt: it would, but probably not much larger than a bytevector
2019-04-30T13:39:32Z ecraven: for some amazing reason I haven't come across a need to implement LZW in Scheme so far, but now I have ;)
2019-04-30T13:39:43Z ecraven: hm.. good point actually
2019-04-30T13:40:25Z gwatt: though building the bignum up would probably generate lots of garbage
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2019-04-30T14:25:11Z lambdapanda: is there a website that lists standard scheme procedures with their reference implementations?
2019-04-30T14:41:17Z amz3: lambdapanda: no yet. but there is https://github.com/schemedoc that working toward that goal AFAIU
2019-04-30T14:42:09Z lambdapanda: amz3: that's unfortunate. Thanks for the link though!
2019-04-30T14:42:11Z amz3: lambdapanda: the thing that looks the most like what you describe is SRFI https://srfi.schemers.org/
2019-04-30T14:42:18Z amz3: yw
2019-04-30T14:42:40Z lambdapanda: amz3: i'm familiar with srfi but I'm not sure if it includes the standard procedures
2019-04-30T14:43:20Z lambdapanda: it's a great resource, though
2019-04-30T14:43:43Z amz3: lambdapanda: well now as part of r7rs large many SRFI become standard
2019-04-30T14:44:30Z amz3: lambdapanda: here is another reference, it is still a work in progress but you might find it useful https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/guile-r7rs/tree/master/doc
2019-04-30T14:45:06Z amz3: halt of the things is implemented in GNU Guile and other other half are taken from SRFI sample/reference implementation
2019-04-30T14:45:20Z amz3: also there is one that is based on guile-pfds
2019-04-30T14:45:43Z amz3: s/halt/half/
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2019-04-30T14:46:15Z lambdapanda: amz3: looks really useful, thanks! (side question: are you happy with sourcehut? It has been on my radar for a while...)
2019-04-30T14:47:03Z wasamasa: amz3: interesting, I'm kind of surprised packhack is done in racket, yet doesn't list racket stuff
2019-04-30T14:49:05Z amz3: lambdapanda: it is some work to get used to the new UI, like any tool. That said, it looks better that gitlab. I miss the merge request feature tho. Otherwise I really like the integrated Continous Integration (build) infrastructure.
2019-04-30T14:49:37Z wasamasa: not having MRs is kind of the point of sr.ht
2019-04-30T14:50:06Z amz3: lambdapanda: IIRC it is 20$ per yet, but you don't need to contribute to existing repositores, that is the only roadblocker I see
2019-04-30T14:50:08Z amz3: wasamasa: yes
2019-04-30T14:50:32Z amz3: s/yet/year/
2019-04-30T14:50:59Z amz3: that is it paying service unlike gitfoo stuff
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2019-04-30T14:55:13Z lambdapanda: amz3: I see. I definitely agree that it looks better than gitlab. The pages are also a lot less bloated too
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2019-04-30T18:55:19Z Zipheir: o/
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2019-04-30T19:58:00Z amz3:  \o
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2019-04-30T21:04:28Z amz3: the sample implementation i submitted with srfi 168 is fully broken, I am shameless :/
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