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2019-03-01T00:15:39Z daviid: amz3: guile also has a tensorflow binding now (see aiscm), which competes quite a lot more with scikit-learn then just numpy: and 'just' cblas will get you nowhere wrt ML, nor image processing and analysis ... for that you'd need a combination of guile-cv and aism (which has tensorflow)
2019-03-01T00:26:26Z Zipheir: Is there anything like a standard doubly-linked list library in the Scheme universe?
2019-03-01T00:27:04Z Zipheir: Or is the usual practice to hack them up with lists of pairs/use some better structure?
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2019-03-01T00:57:02Z Zipheir: Ah, zippers are an alternative.
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2019-03-01T07:28:18Z ecraven: hm.. any medievalists here? I'm trying to remember a word for a knight's obligation or quest.. I think it started with a Q
2019-03-01T07:28:30Z ecraven: geas!
2019-03-01T07:28:56Z ecraven: interesting how it helps to write something down to jog memory
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2019-03-01T10:42:41Z deuill: It's also a spell in D&D I believe
2019-03-01T10:44:49Z nalkri: In AD&D at least, I don't remember it in 3.x and I'm pretty sure it's not in 5th
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2019-03-01T15:54:39Z gwatt: There's variations of geas in 3.5 and pathfinder, I thought.
2019-03-01T16:00:55Z Duns_Scrotus: what a good anime
2019-03-01T16:01:17Z gwatt: jcowan: I think canonicalization of inexact complex numbers is good. I think it's a logical extension of canonicalizing inexact real numbers.
2019-03-01T16:01:29Z wasamasa: Duns_Scrotus: try SICP
2019-03-01T16:03:48Z Duns_Scrotus: sicp -> sempai i can program
2019-03-01T16:04:25Z jcowan: gwatt: I don't follow you.  How are inexact reals canonicalized?
2019-03-01T16:05:31Z gwatt: I might have misunderstood your use of canonicalized, but I assumed it meant (= 0 0.0) => #t
2019-03-01T16:08:29Z jcowan: no, I mean at the level of eqv?, not =
2019-03-01T16:08:32Z gwatt: ah
2019-03-01T16:08:49Z jcowan: in Chicken, Scheme48, and Gauche, (eqv? 1.0+0.0i 1.0) => t
2019-03-01T16:08:53Z jcowan: #t
2019-03-01T16:11:44Z gwatt: Is that new in chicken 5? I can't get chicken 4 to even give me a complex number
2019-03-01T16:11:57Z gwatt: (sqrt -1) => +nan.0
2019-03-01T16:12:54Z jcowan: In Chicken 4 you have to "chicken-install numbers; csi -R numbers"
2019-03-01T16:12:54Z jcowan: but then it is still true
2019-03-01T16:15:55Z gwatt: ah
2019-03-01T16:18:33Z gwatt: Ok, I retract my approval of canon... of inexact complex numbers.
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2019-03-01T16:19:34Z gwatt: I'm not going to say it's A Bad Thing, but I think that if (eqv? 1.0+0.0i 1.0) => #t, then (eqv? 0.0 0) should also be true
2019-03-01T16:21:07Z lloda: does r7rs have a complex conjugate function
2019-03-01T16:21:52Z rain1: http://the-little-prover.github.io/ https://github.com/rain-1/single_cream/tree/master/t  little prover is running in my scheme interpreter
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2019-03-01T16:35:51Z jcowan: lloda: No, but it's a one-liner: (define (conj z) (make-rectangular (real-part z) (- (imag-part z))))
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2019-03-01T16:46:22Z dieggsy: this is what i've come up with to my question yesterday http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=1cd07ff7abab8bc96fd83d870923d4f9cff34634
2019-03-01T16:46:38Z dieggsy: re: '(1 2 3 4) -> '((1 2) (2 3) (3 4)) for example
2019-03-01T16:46:55Z dieggsy: dunno if its the most efficient way.... but it works
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2019-03-01T18:40:34Z amz3: machine learning is so much a time sink, I tell you.
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2019-03-01T23:18:12Z nly: are there multiply linked lists in scheme?
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2019-03-01T23:19:12Z nly: multiply as in, more than one links
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2019-03-01T23:34:09Z Zipheir: nly: I asked about the same thing yesterday
2019-03-01T23:34:19Z pjb: left.
2019-03-01T23:34:30Z pjb: Zipheir: did you get your answer?
2019-03-01T23:34:31Z Zipheir: Ah, so.
2019-03-01T23:34:40Z Zipheir: pjb: Actually no.
2019-03-01T23:35:04Z pjb: There's no native type, but you can easily build your own abstractions.
2019-03-01T23:35:34Z Zipheir: There's the mutable-pair implementation from SICP and other places.
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2019-03-02T03:43:56Z adu: hi
2019-03-02T03:54:47Z Zipheir: Hi adu
2019-03-02T03:55:07Z adu: I miss freenode
2019-03-02T03:55:34Z adu: also, apparently missed the multiple releases of R7RS-large
2019-03-02T03:55:42Z adu: where have I been?
2019-03-02T03:56:03Z adu: don't answer that
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2019-03-02T12:27:28Z lisbeths: DGASAU: I have been thinking a bit about your krivine machine. I think that the only way it could work on a computer with infinite ram is if the instruction set for the machine allowed for infinite ram. However I think a more suitable instruction set would be the krivine machine itself. Furthermore I think what would be very handy to go with it would be a processor with exceedingly quick iops.
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2019-03-02T15:29:43Z amz3: can some one complete the sequence explain to me what is the algorithm?
2019-03-02T15:32:02Z amz3: the third sequence is missing all {0, 1} x {0, 1} x {0, 1} x {0, 1} minus 0000 and 1111
2019-03-02T15:32:26Z amz3: xxxx, yyyy, zzzz etc.. must replaced with gspo permutations
2019-03-02T15:32:46Z amz3: I think the number of permutation is correct (ie. it's not all permutations of gspo)
2019-03-02T15:33:12Z rain1: what is this in reference to?
2019-03-02T15:34:47Z amz3: I am trying to generalize triples store to abitrary number of tuple
2019-03-02T15:34:57Z amz3: gspo stands for graph, subject, predicate, object
2019-03-02T15:35:42Z rain1: aha
2019-03-02T15:35:48Z amz3: the second group of solution, are all the indices required to be able to complete any pattern (subject, predicate, object) or any of them can be a variable, represent as 0 and 1 in the the paste
2019-03-02T15:36:02Z amz3: the second group of solution, are all the indices required to be able to complete any pattern (subject, predicate, object) where any of them can be a variable, represent as 0 and 1 in the the paste
2019-03-02T15:36:09Z amz3: s/or/where/
2019-03-02T15:36:30Z amz3: arbitrary number of items in tuples
2019-03-02T15:45:19Z amz3: the worst is that I already solved thir problem but instead of generating the correct permutation programmatically, I did some copy pasting
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2019-03-02T15:46:49Z rain1: did you have  a pastebin?
2019-03-02T15:58:16Z amz3: https://paste.gnome.org/pnjjeg2vn#line-5
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2019-03-02T17:04:44Z amz3: here is how I compute the solution: https://asciinema.org/a/vphgMX1U9MNqTHUEV7V3abRkz
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2019-03-02T17:42:43Z desperek: does somebody use scheme in production tho?
2019-03-02T17:42:59Z wasamasa: yeah, some brave people do
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2019-03-02T17:43:54Z desperek: :o
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2019-03-02T17:52:02Z ecraven: I do, I even earned some money doing that ;)
2019-03-02T17:54:01Z wasamasa: work website is generated using scheme
2019-03-02T17:56:15Z ecraven: yea, I find web is a good thing, because many people don't care what runs on the server
2019-03-02T17:57:01Z desperek: how tho
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2019-03-02T17:58:00Z ecraven: me, I just wrote the necessary code for mit scheme (and ported it to chez recently)
2019-03-02T17:58:23Z ecraven: but there are quite a few web "frameworks" for many Schemes
2019-03-02T17:58:30Z ecraven: just pick one, and start writing code
2019-03-02T17:58:53Z wasamasa: in this case, it was a static website generator
2019-03-02T17:58:56Z desperek: ecraven, how do you write from scratch though?
2019-03-02T17:59:01Z wasamasa: so you could easily make one yourself
2019-03-02T17:59:03Z desperek: well yea, i was worndering about web serv.
2019-03-02T17:59:15Z desperek: not static site generator -- well, then there's no question really
2019-03-02T17:59:48Z wasamasa: some people like using an implementation providing most you need
2019-03-02T17:59:52Z wasamasa: like racket or CHICKEN or such
2019-03-02T18:00:03Z desperek: i have chicken already
2019-03-02T18:00:19Z wasamasa: start off with configuring spiffy then
2019-03-02T18:00:29Z desperek: well i've heard about it, yeah
2019-03-02T18:00:38Z desperek: hmm well okay, thanks i gues
2019-03-02T18:00:39Z desperek: s
2019-03-02T18:00:45Z desperek: lol
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2019-03-02T18:01:33Z wasamasa: without an application server there can be no framework or such
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2019-03-02T18:01:58Z ecraven: desperek: well, in my case specifically, I wrote an scgi backend, that interfaces with nginx or apache. then I wrote some code to generate html and css from s-expressions. then I wrote some code to interface with sqlite3, oracle and postgres (via the ffi)
2019-03-02T18:02:00Z wasamasa: you can then learn how it decides what to respond to a request and hook into that
2019-03-02T18:02:16Z desperek: that sounds quite advanced
2019-03-02T18:02:28Z wasamasa: yeah indeed, I don't go quite as far :D
2019-03-02T18:02:32Z ecraven: just read the relevant RFCs or C header files, none of this is black magic
2019-03-02T18:02:44Z wasamasa: I just used a bunch of eggs and figured out how they work
2019-03-02T18:02:46Z ecraven: also, ymmv, this is certainly not battle-tested code
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2019-03-02T18:08:35Z wasamasa: yeah, that's the other part of the problem, the web is an ugly mess of not quite standards with unexpected interactions that can be somewhere between annoying and security critical
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2019-03-02T18:25:20Z amz3: fwiw I asked the question on https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3132657/association-between-n-boolean-products-with-one-permutation-of-n-letters
2019-03-02T18:25:22Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/E3gsdlCTVv
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2019-03-02T19:55:48Z rain1: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-17/srfi-17.html
2019-03-02T19:55:55Z rain1: trust schemers to come up with a srfi like this
2019-03-02T19:56:09Z rain1: where you use the new functionality to set new setters
2019-03-02T19:56:30Z rain1: (set! (setter car) set-car!)
2019-03-02T19:58:53Z ecraven: rain1: well, the *point* of it is (set! (car x) 3), the other thing is just necessary to make it extensible
2019-03-02T19:59:03Z ecraven: I really like that one, in fact ;) generalized set!
2019-03-02T19:59:51Z rain1: I like the idea too but I have thougth of a different way to implement it
2019-03-02T20:00:03Z ecraven: which is..?
2019-03-02T20:00:16Z rain1: my idea is to paste together symbols, so (set! (foo x) y) becomes (set-foo! x y)
2019-03-02T20:00:17Z aeth: Sounds like setf from CL, which is a very convenient thing because it then creates the situation where just about everything can have a getter and a setter, with or without CLOS. It's basically the = in foo = 42
2019-03-02T20:00:32Z rain1: this way you don't need any lookup table
2019-03-02T20:00:49Z ecraven: rain1: that's been around forever too. I heartily dislike it, as it is very much non-hygienic, but people have used it often too
2019-03-02T20:00:53Z ecraven: see Dylan, for example
2019-03-02T20:01:05Z rain1: you could implement it in a hygienic way though
2019-03-02T20:01:24Z rain1: just produce the setter symbol with the same syntactic environment as foo
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2019-03-02T20:11:58Z ecraven: I'm no expert, but to me it still seems unhygienic ;)
2019-03-02T20:12:08Z ecraven: also, you have the problem of argument order
2019-03-02T20:12:34Z ecraven: (set! (foo a b c) y) should ideally expand to (set-foo! y a b c) (in order to accomodate foos that take a variable number of arguments)
2019-03-02T20:12:48Z ecraven: that problem is unrelated to the hygiene thing, and imho srfi-17 gets this wrong
2019-03-02T20:13:13Z rain1: that's an interesting point about multiple args, I was thinking only about single arg functions
2019-03-02T20:13:26Z ecraven: yes, multiple args are a very useful extension, imho
2019-03-02T20:13:42Z ecraven: (set! (ref a b c d e) 3) where ref is a generic accessor seems *very* useful
2019-03-02T20:14:02Z ecraven: (ref '(1 2 3 4) 1)  ->  2
2019-03-02T20:21:33Z wasamasa: rain1: why are you on niu.moe?
2019-03-02T20:21:37Z aeth: A general ref is a different issue than a general setter.
2019-03-02T20:21:57Z aeth: "foo = 42" is easy to do efficiently, e.g. CL's setf
2019-03-02T20:22:04Z ecraven: yes, just saying that the combination would require supporting multiple arguments well
2019-03-02T20:22:13Z aeth: "foo.bar.baz[42]['hello']" is harder to do efficiently.
2019-03-02T20:22:43Z aeth: Essentially, accessors for anything with a key or index, like a list, a vector, an alist, a hash-table, etc.
2019-03-02T20:22:48Z ecraven: aeth: shouldn't that just "expand" to (vector-set! (vector-ref (*-baz (*-bar foo))) ..) or something like that?
2019-03-02T20:23:45Z aeth: ecraven: The problem is ambiguity. Is "42" an index to a list, a vector, or a string? Is 'hello (because we wouldn't use a string here) a key to an alist or a hash-table?
2019-03-02T20:24:08Z aeth: So now you have added runtime overhead.
2019-03-02T20:24:21Z ecraven: ah, yes, that is true, that's what a generic ref costs you, generic dispatch
2019-03-02T20:24:55Z ecraven: I've done all of the above (generic set!, generic ref) based on predicate dispatch, it is nice to use
2019-03-02T20:25:01Z ecraven: though I haven't optimized it much, nor profiled it
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2019-03-02T20:25:42Z aeth: Generic set doesn't have to have a runtime overhead in a Lisp, setf in CL does not.
2019-03-02T20:25:54Z aeth: Generic ref would have to have runtime overhead unless you're statically typed afaik.
2019-03-02T20:25:56Z ecraven: the overhead isn't in set, it's in ref
2019-03-02T20:26:35Z ecraven: I just implemented (set! (foo x) y) to expand to ((setter foo) x y), where setter just does a hash table lookup of foo to find set-foo!
2019-03-02T20:26:57Z aeth: Scheme, in particular, is concerned about efficiency and is only really generic for the numeric tower. Otherwise, you de facto have the type in the procedure name as a prefix most of the time. (foo-bar-ref foo-bar) is how you get efficiency without being statically typed.
2019-03-02T20:26:58Z ecraven: that could be optimised away by directly expanding to set-foo! (but I don't like that)
2019-03-02T20:27:15Z rain1: ecraven: why don't you like it?
2019-03-02T20:27:42Z ecraven: rain1: I don't know how to implement that in an extensible way
2019-03-02T20:28:01Z ecraven: using syntax-rules only, that is ;)
2019-03-02T20:28:02Z rain1: it's naturally extensible because you just define a function called set-foo!
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2019-03-02T20:28:14Z rain1: it can't be implemented with syntax-rules
2019-03-02T20:28:23Z ecraven: yea, thus my dislike :P
2019-03-02T20:28:34Z ecraven: ideally, it should *check* whether there is actually a set-foo! defined
2019-03-02T20:28:45Z ecraven: (which my implementation does not do either)
2019-03-02T20:28:49Z ecraven: at macro-expand time
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2019-03-02T20:29:15Z ecraven: note, "should" here means "I'd like it to" ;) just personal preference
2019-03-02T20:29:45Z rain1: so it's kind of subtle but according to the 1990 formulation of hygiene according to clinger and rees, this is not hygienic
2019-03-02T20:30:03Z ecraven: as far as I understand, any kind of symbol generation is non-hygienic
2019-03-02T20:30:43Z rain1: but we are working with a macro syntax (syntax-case say) and tools that didn't exist at that time
2019-03-02T20:31:00Z aeth: Is there a problem with copying how (setf foo) works in Common Lisp? I'm not 100% sure of the internals there, but I'd personally try to copy features from the most closely related languages before attempting to innovate. I don't think setf relies on CLOS or lisp-2, so it's a solution that exists and can be copied.
2019-03-02T20:31:07Z ecraven: well, right now, the only thing r7rs (even -large) has is syntax-rules
2019-03-02T20:31:08Z rain1: we can consider a situation where you have defined foo and set-foo! and then you go  (let ((set-foo! blah)) (set (foo x) y))
2019-03-02T20:31:33Z rain1: will it refer to the proper set-foo! function or the local binding?
2019-03-02T20:31:37Z ecraven: aeth: I've looked into it, but probably not enough to fully understand it. I'll do that, good point
2019-03-02T20:32:09Z rain1: with the technique I mentioned - produce the setter symbol with the same syntactic environment as foo - it will actually ignore the local binding and refer to the setter
2019-03-02T20:32:52Z ecraven: so the macro has a hash table to find the right setter for a getter at macro-expansion time?
2019-03-02T20:34:04Z rain1: do you see what i mean though? it's fair to call it not hygienic but it still does have the character of a hygienic macro, in that it finds the correct binding and avoids being shadowed
2019-03-02T20:35:00Z ecraven: yes, I understand that. in the end, it seems like that is just an optimisation to what I have (moving the setter-finding from runtime to macro-expansion time)
2019-03-02T20:39:42Z rain1: yeah it kind of it just a optimizationt trick
2019-03-02T20:42:03Z ecraven: I still have the problem that this cannot be implemented even semi-portably
2019-03-02T20:42:09Z desperek: (+ 2 2) <---- look this works!!!
2019-03-02T20:42:31Z ecraven: however, maybe it could use runtime lookup by default, and use syntax-case if that is available
2019-03-02T20:42:48Z rain1: it's frustrating that portability is so difficult in scheme
2019-03-02T20:42:59Z rain1: it really shouldn't be as hard as it is
2019-03-02T20:43:16Z ecraven: well, it's a boon and a curse at the same time ;)
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2019-03-02T20:44:04Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/eb513bc6c4a7 i just tried implementing it, it's kind of weird
2019-03-02T20:44:24Z rain1: i'm not sure how it would work with modules and stuff
2019-03-02T20:44:41Z rain1: so maybe this idea wont work out
2019-03-02T20:44:46Z ecraven: I'd rather have something like defsetf in CL, so you explicitly have to associate a setter with a getter
2019-03-02T20:45:02Z ecraven: I'd definitely *not* just change the symbol name to set-...
2019-03-02T20:45:32Z ecraven: the main question is how to move that setter lookup to macro-expansion time. I'm not sure whether syntax-rules can do that
2019-03-02T20:45:47Z ecraven: is there a way to write extensible macros in syntax-rules?
2019-03-02T20:46:29Z rain1: yeah that was my original question actually
2019-03-02T20:46:43Z rain1: that led me to come up with a way that didn't require a macro expansion time table
2019-03-02T20:47:00Z rain1: my experience with having an extensible table for macros in chez was really really bad
2019-03-02T20:47:15Z rain1: (it's broken by design{
2019-03-02T20:47:23Z ecraven: how so? phasing?
2019-03-02T20:47:58Z rain1: it's not even phasing, chez just doesn't execute your code (that registers a new setter) unless you trick it
2019-03-02T20:48:13Z rain1: something about lazy module loading
2019-03-02T20:48:22Z ecraven: ah, never looked into that
2019-03-02T20:51:55Z ecraven: does anyone know whether (eq? '(a) '(a)) is #t in any Scheme?
2019-03-02T20:53:00Z ecraven: guile ;)
2019-03-02T20:53:31Z ecraven: wingo: nice ;)
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2019-03-02T20:59:40Z pjb: ecraven: probably only after compilation.
2019-03-02T20:59:56Z pjb: The point is that you cannot count on it.  Therefore don't.
2019-03-02T20:59:59Z ecraven: I just tried various REPLs, guile says #t, all others say #f
2019-03-02T21:00:17Z ecraven: pjb: yea, just interested in finding out which systems actually "intern" literals
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2019-03-02T21:03:46Z pjb: it's very surprising to see it done at the REPL. One would expect it more in compiled code.
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2019-03-03T03:29:43Z pony: What is a good Scheme book for someone who is new to LISP but not programming in general?
2019-03-03T03:30:15Z adu: sicp
2019-03-03T03:30:47Z pony: thanks
2019-03-03T03:31:00Z adu: https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
2019-03-03T03:32:52Z pony: ty
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2019-03-03T03:43:47Z Zipheir: It's not really a good introduction to the capabilities of Scheme.
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2019-03-03T03:44:13Z Zipheir: For that, The Scheme Programming Language is a good choice
2019-03-03T03:44:42Z Zipheir: Also, Programming in Scheme (if you can find it) and the R7 report
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2019-03-03T05:08:52Z friscosam: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/
2019-03-03T05:09:40Z friscosam: I don't know if this was posted here already, there is a nice R7RS large video featuring jcowan from LispNYC
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2019-03-03T05:09:43Z friscosam: https://www.scheme.com/tspl4/
2019-03-03T05:09:44Z friscosam: erp
2019-03-03T05:09:52Z friscosam: https://vimeo.com/311106780
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2019-03-03T05:14:46Z Zipheir: friscosam: Nice, thanks for posting.
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2019-03-03T09:03:54Z Jackiew2: How popular is John Cowan?
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2019-03-03T11:19:40Z siraben: @archangel45:ponies.im: why does it matter?
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2019-03-03T13:56:14Z amz3: only brute force works
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2019-03-03T13:57:34Z amz3: s/only//
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2019-03-03T15:19:16Z jcowan: Jackiew2: I'm pretty popular with my family
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2019-03-03T16:08:42Z lf94: (define-library 'hello (begin (+ 1 2 3))) ; why does this give "define-library is undefined variable" in chibi scheme (r7rs essentially)?
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2019-03-03T16:14:39Z wasamasa: I doubt that's how you define one
2019-03-03T16:15:30Z lf94: r7rs spec just says the library body can be a (begin)
2019-03-03T16:15:37Z lf94: So I tried it, and it fails
2019-03-03T16:15:39Z wasamasa: I mean the quoted hello
2019-03-03T16:15:51Z lf94: oh without it, it says hello is undefined variable :p
2019-03-03T16:16:26Z wasamasa: besides, you typically put the library into a separate file, then load it up from the interpreter or another file
2019-03-03T16:16:37Z wasamasa: don't expect defining a module to work from the interpreter
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2019-03-03T16:19:19Z lf94: I expect to be able to type anything valid in the spec, into the interp :)
2019-03-03T16:19:40Z lf94: unless of course the context only makes sense in a file
2019-03-03T16:19:43Z wasamasa: it does
2019-03-03T16:19:54Z lf94: So yeah. in this case you're probably right
2019-03-03T16:19:57Z wasamasa: the spec doesn't explain how the mapping between defining a library and loading it up works
2019-03-03T16:20:22Z wasamasa: like, the steps you need to do in-between to make it work
2019-03-03T16:20:41Z wasamasa: for example, picrin doesn't support user-defined libraries at all
2019-03-03T16:20:51Z wasamasa: some implementations insist on a .sld file
2019-03-03T16:21:03Z wasamasa: many map a list of names to directories containing a file
2019-03-03T16:21:18Z wasamasa: some want the file to be compiled
2019-03-03T16:21:40Z wasamasa: CHICKEN is especially weird because it expects (lib foo) to map to lib.foo.so
2019-03-03T16:22:10Z wasamasa: anyway, I tried your example in gauche, it fails on + because you forgot to (import (scheme base))
2019-03-03T16:22:31Z wasamasa: (define-library (lib foo) (import (scheme base)) (begin (+ 1 2 3))) works in it
2019-03-03T16:27:25Z wasamasa: in kawa it evaluates, but nothing is ever printed
2019-03-03T16:32:23Z lf94: oh cool
2019-03-03T16:32:44Z lf94: > chicken > .so < that's cool, you can directly link like that?
2019-03-03T16:32:58Z lf94: wait are there schemes that can seamlessly use libs?
2019-03-03T16:33:03Z lf94: this is sounds amazing
2019-03-03T16:34:23Z wasamasa: what exactly do you mean?
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2019-03-03T16:35:57Z wasamasa: because, no, it's not a C REPL, use gdb for that :P
2019-03-03T16:44:37Z lf94: wasamasa, I mean use dynamically loaded libs in scheme programs
2019-03-03T16:44:50Z wasamasa: still not specific enough
2019-03-03T16:45:08Z wasamasa: I cannot just load up libreadline.so as is
2019-03-03T16:45:55Z wasamasa: since CHICKEN compiles to C, they chose to go for shared libraries as the format to import libraries
2019-03-03T16:46:43Z wasamasa: these .so files are different from the ones you find in your operating system though and must be of a specific form to load up
2019-03-03T16:47:25Z wasamasa: to interoperate with libreadline.so I must write a module in scheme, compile it, then I can use readline functionality from the interpreter and in other compiled files
2019-03-03T16:48:10Z lf94: ok ok, that's what I thought
2019-03-03T16:48:15Z lf94: thank you for the explanation
2019-03-03T16:48:27Z wasamasa: there are other scheme implementations that actually allow loading up a libreadline.so as is
2019-03-03T16:48:33Z wasamasa: like, everything using libffi
2019-03-03T16:48:36Z lf94: oh that I'm interesting in
2019-03-03T16:48:46Z lf94: hm, chibi-scheme has chibi-ffi
2019-03-03T16:48:58Z wasamasa: racket would be an example of this
2019-03-03T16:50:18Z lf94: once I've played with r7rs for awhile I'm definitely moving to racket
2019-03-03T16:50:29Z wasamasa: well, racket doesn't do r7rs at all
2019-03-03T16:50:33Z lf94: I know :)
2019-03-03T16:50:43Z lf94: I want to know r7rs first to learn "the real deal"
2019-03-03T16:50:48Z wasamasa: ok
2019-03-03T16:51:17Z wasamasa: you might be interested in https://github.com/kanaka/mal/tree/master/scheme and my presentation on the experience: https://github.com/wasamasa/chicken-in-the-forest
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2019-03-03T17:08:09Z lf94: wasamasa, thank you for sharing :) that was great
2019-03-03T17:08:24Z lf94: so chicken and kawa seem pretty appealing...
2019-03-03T17:08:50Z wasamasa: well, these happen to be my favorites
2019-03-03T17:09:17Z wasamasa: heck, I like kawa more than clojure, simply because it fits my development style way better
2019-03-03T17:09:51Z wasamasa: instead of waiting for the repl to boot and do involved things while it runs, I just respawn it continuously or recompile and restart the program
2019-03-03T17:09:51Z lf94: clojure isn't r7rs though it is?
2019-03-03T17:09:57Z lf94: while kawa is
2019-03-03T17:09:59Z wasamasa: no, clojure is its own thing
2019-03-03T17:10:12Z wasamasa: a lisp designed by someone who used CL at work
2019-03-03T17:10:35Z lf94: right
2019-03-03T17:10:36Z wasamasa: but it goes down the functional route, so it feels like a funny mix of both CL and scheme
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2019-03-03T17:12:18Z lf94: I might be torn between moving to racket or idris after this
2019-03-03T17:12:24Z wasamasa: I believe chibi and gauche are worth checking out
2019-03-03T17:12:44Z lf94: yea, chibi seems the best for beginners looking to get into r7rs
2019-03-03T17:12:50Z wasamasa: chibi because it's the most standards-compliant one with regards to r7rs, yet is big enough for scripting
2019-03-03T17:13:15Z wasamasa: gauche because it has loads of built-in stuff, some of which is used as inspiration for the upcoming r7rs-large libraries
2019-03-03T17:14:31Z wasamasa: but don't worry, there's way more
2019-03-03T17:14:52Z wasamasa: you could probably just stay in the lisp ecosystem and never get bored of all these different implementations
2019-03-03T17:14:59Z lf94: does scheme have some equivalent to sum types
2019-03-03T17:15:01Z lf94: (enums)
2019-03-03T17:15:05Z wasamasa: no
2019-03-03T17:15:13Z lf94: didnt think so based on google :(
2019-03-03T17:15:24Z wasamasa: there's just a r6rs library for it
2019-03-03T17:15:45Z lf94: i guess if i want a type system just move to language with 1st class support
2019-03-03T17:15:57Z wasamasa: you might want to try shen
2019-03-03T17:16:03Z wasamasa: or typed-racket
2019-03-03T17:16:09Z lf94: typed racket would be my preference
2019-03-03T17:17:00Z wasamasa: I only know clojure's spec system
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2019-03-03T17:40:26Z jcowan: wasamasa: Racket has a non-supported R7RS package
2019-03-03T17:40:32Z jcowan: (not supported by the Racketeers, that is)
2019-03-03T17:40:41Z wasamasa: yeah and nobody knows how to make it work with your own libraries
2019-03-03T17:40:51Z wasamasa: using other racket libraries, sure, no issue
2019-03-03T17:41:05Z wasamasa: I eventually gave up on it
2019-03-03T17:45:26Z lf94: how the heck do I import bitwise operations
2019-03-03T17:45:39Z wasamasa: there is no such thing in r7rs-small
2019-03-03T17:45:56Z lf94: surely there's some srfi?
2019-03-03T17:46:03Z wasamasa: it's one of the r7rs-large things
2019-03-03T17:46:15Z wasamasa: so, yeah, one of the triple digits SRFIs
2019-03-03T17:46:24Z lf94: i'm starting to see why that guy the other day said r7rs-small is no good on its own
2019-03-03T17:46:37Z wasamasa: r7rs-small is barely enough to do an interpreter/compiler
2019-03-03T17:47:06Z lf94: maybe trying to learn scheme is not what I really want
2019-03-03T17:47:10Z wasamasa: why not?
2019-03-03T17:47:22Z lf94: I thought: wow, simple model, small isolate packages to import
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2019-03-03T17:47:25Z wasamasa: it's quite educational as it teaches you what minimalism is about
2019-03-03T17:47:45Z wasamasa: yeah, if you want something beyond the standard, you'll have to do something implementation-specific or wrap these bits up into a srfi
2019-03-03T17:47:55Z wasamasa: and hope all implementations you target have it available
2019-03-03T17:48:09Z wasamasa: writing portable scheme is not for the faint of heart :>
2019-03-03T17:48:27Z wasamasa: heck, I forewent using srfi-1 because not all implementations I've targeted had it
2019-03-03T17:48:39Z lf94: so you did what
2019-03-03T17:48:43Z lf94: implement it in scheme itself?
2019-03-03T17:48:45Z wasamasa: yes
2019-03-03T17:48:51Z wasamasa: it's a time-honored tradition
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2019-03-03T17:48:59Z lf94: I actually thought that's what how it should be done
2019-03-03T17:49:10Z lf94: And i'd have all these scheme only packages to choose from
2019-03-03T17:49:27Z wasamasa: which is another of these benefits of using scheme, you learn just how much can be a library instead of part of the system
2019-03-03T17:49:39Z wasamasa: or a few lines of code
2019-03-03T17:49:53Z wasamasa: instead of installing left-pad from npm, you write it yourself if you don't have srfi-13
2019-03-03T17:49:55Z lf94: well everything can be a library if you implement lambda calculus with some evaluation model
2019-03-03T17:50:01Z lf94: it'll just be super damn small
2019-03-03T17:50:11Z lf94: errrr
2019-03-03T17:50:17Z lf94: it'll just be super damn _slow_
2019-03-03T17:50:24Z lf94: but we care about portability not speed
2019-03-03T17:50:54Z lf94: maybe i'll just learn the basics of r5rs and call it a day
2019-03-03T17:51:05Z wasamasa: of course there's things where the library approach stops being practical, like support for bit operations (srfi-151) and packed numerical arrays (srfi-4)
2019-03-03T17:51:05Z lf94: move onto racket or idris
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2019-03-03T18:54:54Z Zipheir: Why R5? We're very much onto R7 these days.
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2019-03-03T20:22:59Z rain1: thinking about the generalized SET! more
2019-03-03T20:23:02Z rain1: does it even need to be a macro?
2019-03-03T20:23:19Z rain1: if we just wrote (set! 'car x y) instead of (set! (car x) y)
2019-03-03T20:23:50Z rain1: it's a little heavier notationally but it is a plain function
2019-03-03T20:24:26Z adu: but how do you do more advanced things
2019-03-03T20:24:37Z adu: like (set! (car (car x)) y)
2019-03-03T20:24:48Z rain1: that would just be (set! 'car (car x) y) I think
2019-03-03T20:25:15Z adu: but wouldn't that require a macro?
2019-03-03T20:26:14Z rain1: no
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2019-03-03T20:39:57Z Zipheir: Would that generalize well to user-defined types? e.g. (set! 'record-slot r x) would have to work, it seems.
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2019-03-03T20:52:15Z rain1: yeah that's the goal
2019-03-03T20:52:22Z rain1: it would have a hash table or something, to lookup the setter
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2019-03-03T22:21:16Z Zipheir: Reposting jcowan's talk on R7RS-large for those who didn't see the link last time: https://vimeo.com/311106780
2019-03-03T22:44:26Z rotty: jcowan: FWIW, I decided to follow your advice, and the next release of my S-expression Rust library will use a cons-cell datatype to represent lists.
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2019-03-03T23:11:08Z adu: Zipheir: thank you so much
2019-03-03T23:12:49Z adu: fascinating
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2019-03-04T00:01:12Z amz3: rudybot: what everybody is doing?
2019-03-04T00:01:19Z rudybot: amz3: many reasons, one being the indexing which contributes to fast searching, which is what everybody is doing on large projects
2019-03-04T00:01:34Z amz3: rudybot: large scheme projects?
2019-03-04T00:01:35Z rudybot: amz3: "As I note elsethread, Guile Scheme is not a 'faster, more modern Lisp,' because Scheme is not Lisp. Scheme is a Lisp-like language, which does have a place in the world, but it's not Lisp, and it's not (IMHO) well-suited for large software projects like emacs."
2019-03-04T00:02:09Z amz3: rudybot: call me stupid, I write an editor in scheme that will work faster and better than emacs
2019-03-04T00:02:32Z rudybot: amz3: shell is faster, but more stupid.
2019-03-04T00:02:55Z amz3: rudybot: you are not helpful here
2019-03-04T00:03:02Z rudybot: amz3: i still think that a proper set-up, good keyboard, good chair, good displays are extremely important. but this requires me to sit in my office, and often that's just not in the cards. availability of a small laptop is helpful, here. bus ride of 1/2 hr each way, etc.
2019-03-04T00:03:38Z amz3: rudybot: botsnack
2019-03-04T00:03:38Z rudybot: yech, generic brand
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2019-03-04T00:23:33Z Zipheir: This channel needs an ELIZA bot.
2019-03-04T00:23:51Z Zipheir: rudybot: How do you feel about botsnacks?
2019-03-04T00:23:59Z rudybot: Zipheir: puts a trail of botsnacks leading back to #emacs
2019-03-04T00:33:35Z amz3: rudybot: emacs! emacs! emacs! it has to be about emacs!
2019-03-04T00:33:52Z rudybot: amz3: To be honest this was going to be for someone who doesn't know anything about Emacs but has it installed.
2019-03-04T00:34:05Z amz3: rudybot: what is azul?
2019-03-04T00:34:12Z rudybot: amz3: What else is in /home/amirouche/src/scheme/azul/src/.akku/lib/srfi/:0/cond-expand.sls?
2019-03-04T00:34:49Z amz3: rudybot: azul is a r7rs chez scheme distribution
2019-03-04T00:34:53Z rudybot: amz3: anyone know what it means in the context of chez scheme: Exception: missing import for expand-time-features (only (srfi private registry) expand-time-features) at line 10, char 10 of /home/amirouche/src/scheme/azul/src/.akku/lib/srfi/:0/cond-expand.sls
2019-03-04T00:36:10Z Zipheir: 'Azul' always sounds like a Ghostbusters villain to me.
2019-03-04T00:37:40Z Zipheir: amz3: Wow, did rudybot just quote you to yourself?
2019-03-04T00:38:00Z amz3: Zipheir: yes :)
2019-03-04T00:38:43Z amz3: Zipheir: azul is a word used to say 'hello' in the amazigh language, it means literally "(come) close to heart"
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2019-03-04T00:40:24Z Zipheir: amz3: Interesting
2019-03-04T00:41:49Z amz3: it sound the same, except the 'a' at the start also I think the villain in the movie is zuul
2019-03-04T00:42:30Z amz3: maybe i will change the name later, because even for native amazigh, it might not be a good name.
2019-03-04T00:42:35Z amz3: but it is short
2019-03-04T00:44:01Z daviid: it means blue in portuguese (and prob many other languages to ...)
2019-03-04T00:44:30Z daviid: so, a very nice name I should say ...
2019-03-04T00:44:52Z amz3: tx daviid for the kind words
2019-03-04T00:48:14Z amz3: I dream to code a program fully in amazigh, but I am missing vocabulary and stealing existing words to name other things is very difficult to do I mean I term of social engineering
2019-03-04T00:48:51Z amz3: maybe I could just translate english to amazigh somehow
2019-03-04T00:57:49Z friscosam: lol
2019-03-04T00:59:22Z friscosam: sorry, that lol was for something in the backscroll that rudybot said
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2019-03-04T01:14:09Z Zipheir: In particular, that 'Scheme is not Lisp' quote is riot.
2019-03-04T01:14:20Z Zipheir: rudybot: You're such good comic relief.
2019-03-04T01:14:25Z rudybot: Zipheir: You know how in western movies the comic-relief sherrif turns out to be wearing whalebone corsetry to hide his declining figure? How did he manage to acquire such an item without the whole town finding out? I mean, it's usually a pretty small town, someone would've seen him going into the corseters.
2019-03-04T01:14:44Z Zipheir: Gold.
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2019-03-04T01:46:42Z adu: So um
2019-03-04T01:46:57Z adu: where do I learn more about the definition of ASN1BUGNUM
2019-03-04T01:47:05Z adu: googling has led to zero results
2019-03-04T01:52:56Z adu: The string "bignum" occurs in the ASN1 specification zero times
2019-03-04T01:56:45Z friscosam: I believe ASN1 integers don't have a set bit width so they are all bignums
2019-03-04T01:57:59Z adu: are they just BE integers of arbitrary length?
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2019-03-04T02:00:15Z adu: I prefer EXI integer encoding
2019-03-04T02:00:18Z adu: https://www.w3.org/TR/exi/#encodingUnsignedInteger
2019-03-04T02:00:48Z adu: iirc, I found this in like half a dozen projects, including google-protobufs
2019-03-04T02:03:29Z adu: https://developers.google.com/protocol-buffers/docs/encoding#varints
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2019-03-04T02:32:27Z friscosam: IIRC ASN.1 specifies conceptually the content of some data it's up to one of the related encoding specs (BER,DER,etc.) to specify the format
2019-03-04T02:37:35Z adu: so what did jcowan mean when he said "bignum encoding as ASN1"
2019-03-04T02:38:14Z adu: I'm really confused
2019-03-04T02:48:53Z pjb: adu: There's no limit on the size of integers encoded by ASN.1
2019-03-04T02:49:22Z adu: There is also no limit on protobuf varints
2019-03-04T02:52:17Z pjb: On the other hand, eg. X.509 uses ASN.1 octet strings to encode the keys.
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2019-03-04T02:54:58Z pjb: The reason must be that they assume the programming language doesn't support bignums, so for anything over 32-bit, they use octet strings.
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2019-03-04T03:03:03Z friscosam: adu: I just relistened to that portion of the video and he said encoded in BER format.
2019-03-04T03:05:00Z adu: oh
2019-03-04T03:05:22Z adu: so that's basic/binary, right?
2019-03-04T03:05:27Z friscosam: basic yes
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2019-03-04T03:07:37Z friscosam: The idea really is to have a standard encoding for bigints.  I don't know how usefull it is to have that standardized across scheme flavors.
2019-03-04T03:07:45Z friscosam: my opinion
2019-03-04T03:11:20Z adu: "The value of a two's complement binary number is derived by numbering the bits in the contents octets, starting with bit 1 of the last octet as bit zero and ending the numbering with bit 8 of the first octet. Each bit is assigned a numerical value of 2N, where N is its position in the above numbering sequence. The value of the two's complement binary number is obtained by summing the numerical values assigned to each bit for those bits
2019-03-04T03:11:20Z adu: which are set to one, excluding bit 8 of the first octet, and then reducing this value by the numerical value assigned to bit 8 of the first octet if that bit is set to one."
2019-03-04T03:13:12Z adu: omg
2019-03-04T03:13:19Z adu: the length encoding is EXI
2019-03-04T03:13:38Z adu: fascinating
2019-03-04T03:17:06Z adu: o wait, I'm wrong
2019-03-04T03:20:10Z adu: ok, so it is limited
2019-03-04T03:20:18Z adu: ASN1 is limited to integers less than (2^(2^126 - 1) - 1)
2019-03-04T03:23:35Z adu: that's mildly disappointing
2019-03-04T03:25:48Z pjb: How do you see it? Page 14 of T-REC-X.691-200811-S!!PDF-E.pdf doesn't seem to impose any limit to me.
2019-03-04T03:25:51Z adu: o wait, I'm wrong again, less than (256^(256^126 - 1) - 1)
2019-03-04T03:26:23Z adu: it's in the definition of "Length octets"
2019-03-04T03:27:06Z adu: If the first octet start with a MSB of 0, then the rest of the bits are the length of the contents
2019-03-04T03:27:06Z pjb: Ah yes, 11.9 a)
2019-03-04T03:27:25Z pjb: err, c) I mean.
2019-03-04T03:27:41Z adu: if the first octet of the length octets has an MSB of 1, then the rest of that byte referes to the length of the length octets
2019-03-04T03:27:54Z adu: this limits the length octets to (256^126 - 1)
2019-03-04T03:28:03Z adu: which limits the contents octets to (256^(256^126 - 1) - 1)
2019-03-04T03:28:45Z pjb: max m=4 so the maximum length is 4*16K+16K-1  So max integer is 2^81919-1
2019-03-04T03:29:40Z adu: where did you get m from
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2019-03-04T03:30:16Z pjb: 11.9 c) says that m is one to four.
2019-03-04T03:30:46Z adu: 11.9?
2019-03-04T03:30:50Z adu: I don't have an 11.9
2019-03-04T03:30:55Z adu: what document are you looking at
2019-03-04T03:30:56Z pjb: In ITU-T Rec. X.691 (11/2008)
2019-03-04T03:31:24Z adu: I'm looking at X.690 (07/2002)
2019-03-04T03:32:05Z pjb: ok.  I don't know it enough; I will have to study it closely because I want to make a good and complete implementation of ASN.1…
2019-03-04T03:32:35Z adu: I think gmp's mpz_t is pretty close to asn1
2019-03-04T03:32:54Z adu: although it uses int64s instead of bytes
2019-03-04T03:33:32Z adu: aha 691 is PER
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2019-03-04T03:35:44Z adu: protobuf varints are so much simpler
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2019-03-04T03:36:04Z adu: but much more difficult to do arithmetic on
2019-03-04T03:36:27Z adu: I once implemented a varint addition func, it was a mess
2019-03-04T03:38:12Z pjb: It's strange the limits are different in the different encodings…
2019-03-04T03:38:40Z pjb: Well, the ASN.1 formats are not made to do arithmetic on them, but to be transmitted…
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2019-03-04T03:40:46Z adu: right, but BE / twos-complement is basically machine representation already
2019-03-04T03:41:38Z adu: in protobuf varints, you have the MSB of every byte that must be ignored somehow
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2019-03-04T03:51:24Z jcowan: What I meant was a library that would read and write bytevectors interpreting them as ASN.1 numbers.
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2019-03-04T09:09:55Z nly: does anyone know of a graph(datastructures) library for scheme?
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2019-03-04T11:34:29Z lloda: why do I get an extra ellipsis error in this macro: https://paste.debian.net/1071375/
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2019-03-04T13:01:04Z rain1: I think the problem is that you used #,
2019-03-04T13:02:00Z rain1: if you want to apply the level function you'll have to do something like #'(map level (syntax->list #'(n1 ...)))
2019-03-04T13:02:05Z rain1: sorry #,(map
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2019-03-04T13:45:30Z lloda: thx rain1
2019-03-04T13:46:30Z lloda: I'll probably come back
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2019-03-04T15:50:43Z oceanus: Hello. I made a SRFI symbol index with a public API: https://schemedoc.herokuapp.com/
2019-03-04T15:50:47Z oceanus: It's barely functional right now but could be easily improved if people are interested
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2019-03-04T16:20:52Z gwatt: oceanus: That's pretty cool!
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2019-03-04T16:31:17Z oceanus: Thanks :) The index has many missing and junk symbols. That could be fixed by adding consistent HTML class attributes to the SRFI source documents.
2019-03-04T16:35:03Z oceanus: which are nowadays on GitHub: https://github.com/scheme-requests-for-implementation/ Does anyone here happen to be involved with the SRFI process/infrastructure?
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2019-03-04T17:05:37Z jcowan waves
2019-03-04T17:06:00Z jcowan: I'm not directly involved, but I'm in frequent communication with Art Gleckler
2019-03-04T17:08:58Z jcowan: The trouble is that the SRFI rules don't specify any particular format below the level of the H1 headers.
2019-03-04T17:09:17Z jcowan: (except HTML 3.2, a requirement more often honored in the breach)
2019-03-04T17:14:17Z oceanus: Cool! Can you estimate how difficult it would be culturally to change those rules at this point?
2019-03-04T17:16:19Z oceanus: The HTML 3.2 spec doesn't have the "class" and "id" attributes but many RFCs do still contain them (I downloaded all of them :P)
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2019-03-04T17:20:16Z oceanus: Er, many SRFIs :p I guess the bigger issue would be changing the markup of all 166 of the old SRFIs.
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2019-03-04T17:31:16Z jcowan: I checked and the process document now says "HTML 3.2 or later"
2019-03-04T17:32:43Z jcowan: which means pretty much everything except stuff that was obsoleted before then, which is hardly likely to be used.  In practice, though, SRFIs keep their HTML simple.
2019-03-04T17:33:03Z oceanus: The key process issue might be whether people other than SRFI author are permitted to change the HTML markup after publication
2019-03-04T17:33:09Z jcowan: Most of mine are either clones of some existing SRFIs (notably 1) or were written in some kind of Markdown
2019-03-04T17:33:24Z jcowan: I'd say that's a question for srfi-editors@srfi.schemers.org to answer
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2019-03-04T17:34:59Z oceanus: Many of them have simple HTML but some have inline CSS and stuff.
2019-03-04T17:35:43Z oceanus: The nice thing about using class attributes is that you can add any class to any tag, so the overall structure of the document doesn't have to change
2019-03-04T17:36:27Z oceanus: And use <span> tags and style="display: none" to make invisible additions (only for machines to read) if necessary.
2019-03-04T17:38:02Z ecraven: I'm still for using skribe ;P
2019-03-04T17:38:24Z oceanus: :D
2019-03-04T17:39:40Z oceanus: Anyway, would it be best to just email srfi-editors and ask about all this stuff?
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2019-03-04T17:54:48Z wasamasa: well, would you look at that: https://social.device5.co.uk/@AbbieNormal/101692757340864312
2019-03-04T17:55:03Z wasamasa: I can't remember who in here was furious about guile omitting local variables in backtraces, but I'm sure it was here
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2019-03-04T19:54:11Z oceanus: I emailed srfi-editors. Let's see what happens.
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2019-03-05T01:51:35Z friscosam: Is there guidance for implementers for how to handle deprecated functions?  Specifically I'm looking at SRFI-125
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2019-03-05T01:59:10Z friscosam: oops I found the small print "implementations must still provide them, however."
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2019-03-05T05:30:20Z jcowan: friscosam: That's what deprecated means.  Implementers must provide them, users shouldn't use them.
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2019-03-05T06:21:43Z Zipheir: Deprecated: "Do not use this bridge; the far side has been burned."
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2019-03-05T06:25:39Z Zipheir: Er, the bridge is currently here. But there is a chance that your code will be crossing it when it is burned.
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2019-03-05T06:54:15Z Jackiew2: Is there already a portable Lisp that runs on any architecture
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2019-03-05T07:02:42Z Zipheir: Jackiew2: All architectures _in existence_?
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2019-03-05T07:04:04Z Jackiew2: Not necessary
2019-03-05T07:04:14Z Jackiew2: I mean a lisp that works on aarch64
2019-03-05T07:04:27Z Jackiew2: Without any assembly code
2019-03-05T07:05:49Z Zipheir: I'm pretty sure Guile does.
2019-03-05T07:06:09Z Jackiew2: No assembly code:
2019-03-05T07:06:11Z Jackiew2: ?
2019-03-05T07:06:47Z Zipheir: What do you mean? Guile is written in C and Scheme.
2019-03-05T07:07:05Z Jackiew2: It is standalone?
2019-03-05T07:07:56Z Zipheir: Does that matter?
2019-03-05T07:09:41Z Zipheir: Jackiew2: Maybe if you explain what you're trying to do it would be easier to help.
2019-03-05T07:10:08Z Jackiew2: Wwll
2019-03-05T07:10:09Z Jackiew2: Well
2019-03-05T07:10:14Z Jackiew2: I'd use scheme without requiring another scheme
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2019-03-05T07:11:24Z ecraven: any Scheme that compiles to C might work on many architectures
2019-03-05T07:11:54Z Zipheir: Yes, if you have a C compiler there are a large number of Schemes available to you.
2019-03-05T07:11:54Z Jackiew2: Unless it requires assembly
2019-03-05T07:11:58Z Zipheir: wat
2019-03-05T07:12:13Z Jackiew2: Then why didn't MIT scheme work for aarch64
2019-03-05T07:12:46Z Jackiew2: mircocode failed to compile with "unknown configuration"
2019-03-05T07:13:45Z Jackiew2: I went with the portable installation
2019-03-05T07:14:12Z Zipheir: AFAIK the portable C source for MIT/GNU should compile on anything the C compiler can target
2019-03-05T07:15:34Z Zipheir: Are you on some crippled system with no packages for any lisp implementation?
2019-03-05T07:16:00Z Jackiew2: there's only picolisp
2019-03-05T07:17:31Z Zipheir: Some kind of smartphone?
2019-03-05T07:18:04Z Jackiew2: Hint: Termux
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2019-03-05T07:19:49Z Zipheir: Then the canonical answer is "get a real computer". Or at least a real operating system.
2019-03-05T07:20:20Z ecraven: there are many Schemes that should run on aarch64
2019-03-05T07:21:44Z ecraven: you just need to properly compile them
2019-03-05T07:22:36Z Jackiew2: Um
2019-03-05T07:22:42Z Jackiew2: This smartphone is aarch64
2019-03-05T07:22:51Z Jackiew2: So it should work
2019-03-05T07:23:14Z Jackiew2: And it uses clang
2019-03-05T07:23:54Z Jackiew2: And termux is running on Android, something Linux
2019-03-05T07:23:58Z Jackiew2: So I don't see why it wouldn't work on something that is Linux
2019-03-05T07:24:21Z Zipheir: How about chibi? Or CHICKEN? Or s9fes? All of those should work.
2019-03-05T07:25:00Z ecraven: Jackiew2: not sure what your problem is. the *portable* compiler of mit scheme runs fine on aarch64... just don't use the *native* compiler
2019-03-05T07:25:29Z Jackiew2: It uses clang
2019-03-05T07:27:14Z Zipheir: So use clang.
2019-03-05T07:27:18Z ecraven: *wha8
2019-03-05T07:27:27Z ecraven: *what* uses clang? mit scheme can certainly be compiled with non-clang compilers
2019-03-05T07:28:37Z Jackiew2: Termux avails clang
2019-03-05T07:28:50Z ecraven: so don't use termux, if you don't like that
2019-03-05T07:28:51Z wasamasa: I suspect aarch64 is less of a problem than the weird as heck android runtime
2019-03-05T07:29:01Z Jackiew2: So it can work with clang too?
2019-03-05T07:29:19Z ecraven: never tried it, but I don't see why mit should fail on clang
2019-03-05T07:29:25Z wasamasa: try running scheme on a raspberry pi 3b and you'll see what I mean
2019-03-05T07:29:43Z Zipheir: Is RPi using Android now?
2019-03-05T07:29:55Z wasamasa: no!
2019-03-05T07:30:00Z Zipheir: Phew.
2019-03-05T07:30:08Z wasamasa: the point is that you don't put android on it
2019-03-05T07:30:11Z wasamasa: https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/213
2019-03-05T07:30:18Z Zipheir: Ah.
2019-03-05T07:30:34Z wasamasa: 128 chars limit for library paths
2019-03-05T07:30:48Z wasamasa: this is far more of a problem than aarch64 being funny
2019-03-05T07:31:01Z Zipheir: Wow, that's utter crap.
2019-03-05T07:31:13Z wasamasa: at least they bumped it after android 6.0
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2019-03-05T07:31:50Z Jackiew2: Its just that RPIs are costly
2019-03-05T07:32:10Z wasamasa: lol and your android smartphone isn't?
2019-03-05T07:33:02Z Zipheir: In many countries the cost of having a smartphone will buy several RPis a month.
2019-03-05T07:33:28Z Jackiew2: In the Philippines a raspberry pi is $10,000
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2019-03-05T07:34:31Z Jackiew2: Can you already do things with a zero?
2019-03-05T07:34:41Z wasamasa: it's not aarch64
2019-03-05T07:34:50Z wasamasa: it must be that specific model
2019-03-05T07:35:10Z wasamasa: all the preceding ones are 32-bit arm
2019-03-05T07:35:40Z Jackiew2: Yes but is $35 enough?
2019-03-05T07:35:59Z Jackiew2: I heard that raspberry pis are ridiculously expensive
2019-03-05T07:36:05Z Zipheir: On what planet?
2019-03-05T07:36:24Z wasamasa: mars clearly
2019-03-05T07:36:25Z Jackiew2: doesn't really matter
2019-03-05T07:36:40Z Jackiew2: Having a mini computer costs $600
2019-03-05T07:38:24Z Jackiew2: Sure I like raspberry pi but cost will always be my concern
2019-03-05T07:38:36Z pony: why?
2019-03-05T07:38:41Z pony: theyr'e like #45
2019-03-05T07:38:46Z pony: uh. i mean $35
2019-03-05T07:39:15Z wasamasa: more like 35€ here :P
2019-03-05T07:39:37Z wasamasa: and in the phillipines maybe twice
2019-03-05T07:40:04Z Zipheir: Maybe where Jackiew2 lives the SoC computer market is controlled by gangs bent on extorting the poor hackers...
2019-03-05T07:41:30Z Zipheir: Jackiew2: If they are actually that expensive where you are, I recommend looking around for old office computers. Organizations and grandmothers frequently just give them away.
2019-03-05T07:42:59Z Jackiew2: I don't know why RPis are not in the Philippines
2019-03-05T07:43:12Z Jackiew2: But buying imported ones is really expensive
2019-03-05T07:44:07Z Zipheir: There's also OrangePi, BananaPi, ...
2019-03-05T07:44:25Z Zipheir: Less trendy but apparently fine.
2019-03-05T07:44:52Z Jackiew2: They aren't obviously available elsewhere
2019-03-05T07:45:26Z Jackiew2: Which is why startups are dying
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2019-03-05T07:51:19Z Zipheir: The 3B is like 2800 pesos from various philippines sites, which is like $50
2019-03-05T07:52:41Z Zipheir: I've no idea what 2800 pesos normally buys in the philippines, but that's close to there USD price in the US.
2019-03-05T07:52:49Z Zipheir: s/there/their/
2019-03-05T07:54:22Z Jackiew2: Yeah but shipping costs
2019-03-05T07:54:49Z Jackiew2: I mean I would find one that is locally selling but can find it online
2019-03-05T08:00:31Z Zipheir: Still, wasamasa's right, there's no way SoCs are more expensive than smartphones.
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2019-03-05T08:26:41Z lloda: rain1: thx for the pointer yesterday, that did the trick pretty much
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2019-03-05T09:43:22Z lloda: how do I get a symbol from a macro, not an identifier but an actual symbol.
2019-03-05T09:43:24Z lloda: #''x works for a literal but (let ((t 'x)) ... #'t) gives me the identifier t, and (let ((t 'x)) ... (datum->syntax _ t)) gives me the identifier x. I want the symbol 'x out of t.
2019-03-05T09:43:32Z lloda: sorry if this is unclear :-/
2019-03-05T09:46:38Z rain1: 'x isn't a symbol, it's a list with 2 symbols (quote x)
2019-03-05T09:46:55Z rain1: you an create it using (list 'quote 'x)
2019-03-05T09:47:40Z rain1: or you could do `',t when the symbol x is held in the t variable
2019-03-05T09:49:19Z Jackiew2: How are angles implemented in programming in general?
2019-03-05T10:06:26Z lloda: rain1: #`(quote #,(datum->syntax _ t)) does what I want but there's something I'm missing :-/
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2019-03-05T10:18:05Z rain1: what are you missing
2019-03-05T10:18:37Z rain1: why don't you tell us about what you're implementing?
2019-03-05T10:19:19Z lloda: seems strange to take a symbol then make an identifier, just to get a symbol again. Like, the context in datum->syntax is unnecessary
2019-03-05T10:19:41Z lloda: this is for https://github.com/lloda/guile-ffi-cblas
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2019-03-05T10:43:20Z amz3: skribe ftw!
2019-03-05T10:43:39Z ecraven: I love skribe ;) just wish it was used more
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2019-03-05T12:28:08Z gwatt: lloda: If you're outside a pattern context (syntax-case, with-syntax) then you probably want to use syntax->datum to turn an identifier into a symbol
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2019-03-05T12:51:55Z lloda: gwatt: thx, I use that to parse macro arguments. But my question above was about writing a symbol to the macro output, where you cannot have a raw symbol (?)
2019-03-05T12:52:01Z lloda: rain1's #`(quote ...) works
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2019-03-05T16:23:22Z foof: lf94: define-library is not exported by any standard scheme library - it's up to the implementation if and how to expose this in an interactive manner
2019-03-05T16:23:46Z foof: chibi adopts a meta-language approach similar to scheme48
2019-03-05T16:24:17Z foof: the easiest way to use this is with the -R (chibi repl) @meta command:
2019-03-05T16:24:22Z foof: @meta (define-library (hello) (import (scheme base)) (begin (+ 1 2 3)))
2019-03-05T16:24:58Z foof: note the library name must be a list, and you must also import (scheme base) which defines `begin' and `+'
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2019-03-05T22:20:51Z amz3: https://github.com/google/lisp-koans
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2019-03-05T23:25:15Z Zipheir: They're all Common Lisp koans.
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2019-03-05T23:40:50Z amz3: #muse
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2019-03-07T04:17:41Z Zipheir: Is text->symbol or textual->symbol defined in some SRFI? I note that it's not among the procedures of the big text SRFI, 135.
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2019-03-07T05:00:04Z jcowan: I think it is not.  You'd have to do text->string and then string->symbol.
2019-03-07T05:05:33Z Zipheir: *grumble*
2019-03-07T05:05:46Z Zipheir: ty, jcowan.
2019-03-07T05:06:22Z jcowan: Not *every* one-line function can end up in a SRFI.
2019-03-07T05:08:04Z Zipheir: True. But if one were generating lots of symbols from text input, it would be nice to skip allocating a fresh string each time.
2019-03-07T05:09:58Z Zipheir: Although depending on how symbols are implemented, you might end up allocating a string anyway, I suppose.
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2019-03-07T05:49:54Z jcowan: I think so.  Note that it is an error to modify the string from which a symbol is made, which suggests that implementations *may* use the string.
2019-03-07T05:50:58Z aeth: What's text?
2019-03-07T05:51:47Z aeth: Just immutable strings?
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2019-03-07T05:56:55Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2019-03-07T06:00:52Z Zipheir: jcowan: I thought that referred to strings created by symbol->string?
2019-03-07T06:03:44Z Zipheir: (let* ((s "foo") (sym (string->symbol s))) (string-set! s 0 #\b)) is an error?
2019-03-07T06:04:22Z Zipheir: As a "string from which a symbol is made" is here modified. But perhaps I've misunderstood.
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2019-03-07T06:18:03Z Zipheir: No, of course not, I misunderstood.
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2019-03-07T12:30:50Z jcowan: Zipheir: No, you're right and I was wrong.
2019-03-07T12:31:04Z jcowan: aeth: Texts are disjoint from strings, but they are immutable.
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2019-03-07T18:31:46Z Lureif: Hey all! How many of you are here from SICP?
2019-03-07T18:32:54Z catonano: Lureif: 🙋‍♂️
2019-03-07T18:35:06Z tyrolm: Lureif: I admit it
2019-03-07T18:40:43Z Zipheir: Lureif: We're all Knights of the Lambda Calculus here.
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2019-03-07T19:13:00Z jcowan: tyrolm, Zipheir:  And in the Lambda Order we are all first-class.
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2019-03-07T19:25:01Z Zipheir: :) I love that poem.
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2019-03-08T11:56:58Z ebzzry: Hi, fellow Schemers! What is the closest equivalent to the CL Hyperspec that we have?
2019-03-08T12:03:58Z ebzzry: readscheme.org redirects to http://cultureua.com/. Is that link still relevant?
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2019-03-08T12:56:08Z jcowan: Unfortunately, no, it isn't.
2019-03-08T12:56:47Z jcowan: There are HTML versions of the various RnRS specs (but not R7RS, which is only available as PDF and as LaTeX source)
2019-03-08T12:56:56Z jcowan: R7RS has internal hyperlinks in the PDF though.
2019-03-08T12:57:52Z ecraven: I've started on converting all rnrs to org-mode documents, but haven't gotten very far
2019-03-08T12:58:41Z rain1: it's a shame there is no HTML for R7RS
2019-03-08T13:01:16Z X-Scale`: LaTeX2HTML is not an option ?
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2019-03-08T13:10:28Z jcowan: The last I heard the internal hyperlinks made the specialized RnRS converter break.  Someone could try Pandoc.
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2019-03-08T13:31:46Z ebzzry: Hm. OK.
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2019-03-08T13:44:15Z ebzzry: ISTM, that the closest to that is implementation-provided documemtation. Is that right?
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2019-03-08T13:54:56Z pjb: ebzzry: nope, it's r7rs.  CL implementation specific documentation is equivalent to scheme implementation specific documentation.
2019-03-08T13:55:27Z ebzzry: pjb: OK.
2019-03-08T13:57:41Z ebzzry: What’s a good, fast r7 implementation?
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2019-03-08T14:09:57Z jcowan: Good for what exactly?
2019-03-08T14:11:09Z jcowan: A list of R7RS implementations can be found at https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ImplementationSupport.md
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2019-03-08T14:21:46Z deuill: Seems like Chez is slowly going down the R7RS path too
2019-03-08T14:22:03Z deuill: Or at least the maintainers are not against it, which is great
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2019-03-08T14:51:07Z amz3 working on it
2019-03-08T14:51:52Z amz3: it is not clear whether it will be strict compliance
2019-03-08T14:52:12Z amz3: like the srfi-0 equivalent in r7rs-small is not very clear to me
2019-03-08T15:01:18Z jcowan: I see no problem with documented derogations from R7RS
2019-03-08T15:02:13Z amz3: good to know
2019-03-08T15:02:57Z amz3: by the way, I have an scheme implementation of (not very well expressed) riddle from last few days
2019-03-08T15:03:55Z amz3: https://paste.gnome.org/p6o7hnem7
2019-03-08T15:04:05Z jcowan: amz3: What is unclear about R7RS cond-expand?
2019-03-08T15:04:36Z jcowan: (Straight question, not sarcasm)
2019-03-08T15:04:56Z amz3: jcowan: I need to read again the specification to express a clear issue with the specification
2019-03-08T15:06:07Z jcowan: BTW, one known derogation is not supporting include(-ci) or cond-expand outside define-library forms
2019-03-08T15:09:37Z jcowan: another is that Chicken does not support rename-on-export, which is a rather esoteric feature, useful mainly for writing alternate base libraries
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2019-03-08T16:14:38Z amz3: re riddle: more permanent https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Iamamz3/Seyfu:_Versioned_Structured_Data#Indices
2019-03-08T16:14:54Z amz3: I need to formaly state the problem.
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2019-03-09T14:57:50Z andrei-n: Hello.  What is the reason it was decided to make symbols case-sensitive in Scheme?
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2019-03-09T15:06:10Z X-Scale: andrei-n: do you consider it was a bad design decision ?
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2019-03-09T15:12:05Z andrei-n: X-Scale, I think so.  Why would if and IF be considered different?  And anyway, this is not a common to name variables with uppercase letters in lisp in general.  Why would anyone think it's a good idea?
2019-03-09T15:16:15Z ggole: They would be considered different because their constituent characters are different.
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2019-03-09T15:45:17Z andrei-n: Anyways I don't understand where the pressure came from to change it.  The only idea I have is because they wanted to make the compilation a bit faster, but on modern computers, and with the average size of a source code file, it shouldn't make any difference.
2019-03-09T15:56:27Z wasamasa: case-insensitivity is a bad idea and makes things more complicated
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2019-03-09T16:06:01Z andrei-n: wasamasa, why?  what is more complicated?
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2019-03-09T16:08:07Z wasamasa: determining whether two identifiers are the same
2019-03-09T16:08:26Z wasamasa: case-insensitivity violates the principle of least surprise and in the worst case, leads to bugs
2019-03-09T16:08:44Z wasamasa: some even security-related
2019-03-09T16:09:28Z wasamasa: besides, there's this ancient trick for meta-circular interpreters where you use identifiers that just differ in case
2019-03-09T16:09:43Z wasamasa: that trick would no longer work
2019-03-09T16:10:30Z andrei-n: wasamasa, what trick?
2019-03-09T16:10:36Z wasamasa: I just explained it
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2019-03-09T16:12:34Z andrei-n: ok
2019-03-09T16:13:42Z wasamasa: anyway, I have my doubts case-insensitivity in CL is there for a particularly clever reason, other than being backwards-compatible
2019-03-09T16:14:25Z wasamasa: in picolisp case-sensitivity is used for their naming convention that avoids the usual lisp-1 issues of common variable names being already taken by functions
2019-03-09T16:14:50Z wasamasa: so the convention is to capitalize variable identifiers
2019-03-09T16:15:10Z pjb: wasamasa: there's no case insensitivity in CL.
2019-03-09T16:15:21Z pjb: There's a parameter that allows for case insensitivity in CL reader.
2019-03-09T16:15:37Z pjb: Use: (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :PRESERVE)
2019-03-09T16:15:37Z wasamasa: which is flipped on by default
2019-03-09T16:15:52Z andrei-n: The thing is that Scheme was case-insensitive, but they needed to change.  It would be interesting to know the reason, in case I write a Scheme interpreter or a programming language myself.
2019-03-09T16:16:06Z wasamasa: originally it was rather close to CL and such
2019-03-09T16:16:21Z wasamasa: heck, the rabbit compiler had interop with the maclisp environment it ran on
2019-03-09T16:17:45Z wasamasa: over time they dropped pretty much all features in common, with do being a notable exception
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2019-03-09T16:19:57Z jcowan: Indeed, R0RS and R1RS document hardly any Scheme-specific procedures: the library at that time was Maclisp, the whole MacLisp, and (almost) nothing but Maclisp.
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2019-03-09T16:21:14Z jcowan: A couple of reasons for case-sensitivity: interop with other languages, the habits of programmers using those other languages.
2019-03-09T16:22:12Z jcowan: And of course it's easy to interop between case-sensitive and case-insensitive Lisps for the most part, since "just use lower case" is a pretty effective policy.
2019-03-09T16:24:15Z jcowan: Because Maclisp had no packages, anything new introduced by Scheme *had* to have a new name: Scheme's assignment operator couldn't be called SETQ or SET, and was in fact called ASET' at the time.  Only after the Great Renaming of R2RS were names in ! and ? introduced.
2019-03-09T16:25:58Z wasamasa: now that's interesting
2019-03-09T16:26:00Z jcowan: Of course, modulo the effects of the Great Renaming, the continuity between CL procedures and Scheme procedures is really pretty clear: NCONC may be called append! in Scheme, but its behavior is exactly the same.
2019-03-09T16:26:18Z jcowan: I do my best.  :-)
2019-03-09T16:27:28Z andrei-n: So CL is almost exactly MacLisp?
2019-03-09T16:27:36Z jcowan: Maclisp++, more like
2019-03-09T16:27:51Z jcowan: But mostly backward compatible, yes.
2019-03-09T16:28:15Z wasamasa: elisp is another maclisp descendant
2019-03-09T16:28:18Z jcowan: The point of CL was to unify Maclisp and its immediate descendants into a single standard, which is why it's called *Common* Lisp.
2019-03-09T16:28:30Z jcowan: Elisp is Maclisp--.
2019-03-09T16:30:43Z jcowan: `do` is an interesting case: the syntax and most of the semantics are the same between Scheme and CL, but there's the subtle difference that Scheme rebinds the iteration variables whereas CL assigns to them.
2019-03-09T16:31:40Z andrei-n: I think I read somewhere that MacLisp had dynamic scoping, so that should be one of the main points of incompatibility.
2019-03-09T16:31:41Z jcowan: In a few cases, Scheme still agrees with Maclisp as against CL, notably in (car '()) and (cdr '()), which are errors in Scheme and Maclisp.  The introduction of (car '()) => '() into Common Lisp was a compromise with Interlisp.
2019-03-09T16:31:54Z jcowan: Yes.  CL borrowed lexical scoping from Scheme.
2019-03-09T16:32:42Z jcowan: More accurately, Maclisp had dynamic scope in the interpreter, lexical scope in the compiler.  An important feature of both Scheme and CL was to make the semantics the same in both interpreter and compiler.
2019-03-09T16:33:37Z jcowan: Scheme did this by extending lexical scope to the global environment, CL by generalizing the `special` declaration (forcing dynamic scope even in the compiler) to both environments.
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2019-03-09T17:37:08Z Zipheir: Also, case insensitivity will be a nightmare if anyone starts using unicode in their symbols.
2019-03-09T17:44:08Z Zipheir: Well, 'nightmare' is hyperbole, but case-insensitive symbols would certainly be a tougher proposition if Unicode is involved. And we now live in a unicode world.
2019-03-09T17:48:20Z Zipheir: In any case, who needs them (case-insensitive symbols)? IIUC, they were never about accomodating humans who liked to write their symbols with random capitalizations, they were about compatibility with computers/implementations with only one case of characters.
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2019-03-09T17:56:09Z fizzie: `unidecode Unicode symbols are probably a little bit of a headache anyway, you'll at least need to pick a normal form or consider ä and ä distinct symbols. Though at least that's not locale-specific.
2019-03-09T17:56:43Z fizzie: (...Ignore the "`unidecode" bit, that was just to verify the ä/ä part.)
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2019-03-09T18:03:04Z Zipheir: Right. But Unicode identifiers are a good thing, IMHO, despite the headaches.
2019-03-09T18:03:52Z Zipheir: Good Thing in the sense of 'they should be available', that is.
2019-03-09T18:04:59Z Zipheir: Go's provided them since the beginning, and I don't think they've caused that language any unusual pain.
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2019-03-09T21:41:06Z aeth: Interesting history lesson.
2019-03-09T21:41:48Z aeth: Zipheir: I think generally case-insensitivity ignores the parts of Unicode that aren't in ASCII, or at least most of it. There are complicating factors like sigma having two lower case forms and one upper case.
2019-03-09T21:43:16Z aeth: SBCL doesn't upcase final sigma 'ς but does upcase regular sigma 'σ into 'Σ
2019-03-09T21:43:18Z pjb: aeth: the unicode database indicates for all codepoints, their single-codepoint upper-case and lower-case corresponding codepoint.
2019-03-09T21:43:47Z aeth: pjb: yes, but a case-insensitive language (or an upcasing language like CL) doesn't have to respect that afaik.
2019-03-09T21:44:03Z pjb: There's also additionnal information for multi-codepoint upper-case and lower-case, which I haven't looked at yet, but it is not native-language complete.
2019-03-09T21:44:55Z pjb: CL implementation that use unicode have better respect this database.   But it would have ot provide an extension API for the char->string upcase/downcase functions.
2019-03-09T21:45:12Z pjb: foremost, taking a language/locale argument.
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2019-03-09T21:47:23Z aeth: Apparently SBCL has both cl:string-upcase and sb-unicode:uppercase. string-upcase upcases sigma but not final sigma. sb-unicode:uppercase uppercases both. It probably uses string-upcase for its symbol upper casing.
2019-03-09T21:49:06Z aeth: So it has a complete upper case function and an incomplete one, where the incomplete one handles more than just ASCII but probably not that much more (I'm guessing just most of Latin (e.g. ï) and Cyrillic and most of Greek)
2019-03-09T21:50:33Z aeth: Interestingly, Turkish has different upper case rules. It has a İ that's the upper case for i iirc. Then there's a dotless i (ı) that's a lower case for I.
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2019-03-09T21:55:03Z Zipheir: We should just follow the advice of that Bauhaus guy from the 20s and use lowercase for everything. Who needs Heavy Runes anyway?
2019-03-09T21:55:48Z aeth: ACTUALLYTHEROMANSHADITRIGHTWHENTHEYJUSTUSEDALLCAPSANDNOPUNCTUATION
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2019-03-09T21:55:59Z Zipheir: Hah
2019-03-09T21:56:11Z aeth: Oh, I forgot a few things. s/U/V/ and s/J/I/
2019-03-09T21:56:14Z aeth: You can tell from context.
2019-03-09T21:58:11Z Zipheir: Reminds me of the (probably untrue) story that IBM, faced with a choice of all lowers or all uppers for some early system, chose uppers 'so that the name of Creator could be written correctly'.
2019-03-09T21:58:35Z Zipheir: s/name of/name of The/
2019-03-09T21:59:40Z aeth: Zipheir: by the creator you mean "IBM", right?
2019-03-09T21:59:53Z aeth: "ibm" would be a brand violation!
2019-03-09T22:00:11Z Zipheir: :-)
2019-03-09T22:00:16Z Zipheir: http://catb.org/jargon/html/G/Great-Runes.html
2019-03-09T22:09:58Z pjb: aeth: not only the romans, but the hebrew and the greek too. This is why there are final forms for some letters.  This helped identify words.
2019-03-09T22:10:18Z aeth: Well, it's complicated.
2019-03-09T22:10:27Z aeth: Romans actually WROTELIKETHIS in inscriptions
2019-03-09T22:10:40Z aeth: iirc, upper case was for inscriptions and official stuff, lower case cursive was for handwriting
2019-03-09T22:11:06Z aeth: So I guess mixed case is the odd thing
2019-03-09T22:11:22Z pjb: the difference was that inscriptions and official stuff was written in scarse real estate (no paper, only expensive stuff), while handwriting was done on wax tablets that were reusable.
2019-03-09T22:12:12Z pjb: I don't know when we invented slate tablet and chalks.
2019-03-09T22:13:42Z pjb: Before 14th century…
2019-03-09T22:13:50Z aeth: I'm not sure you could find the real inventor for most things. Things could have been invented in France or in Japan or in Egypt or in India, and eventually the trade would bring it everywhere else.
2019-03-09T22:14:33Z aeth: Archeology will only tell you the first place where we have found it so far.
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2019-03-09T22:15:28Z aeth: (Obviously the "eventually" for ancient things only applies to the Old World or to the New World, which were cut off from each other)
2019-03-09T22:16:23Z pjb: Still funny that the Roman didn't use it. After all, they had the communication network to bring together both slate and chalk…
2019-03-09T22:17:11Z pjb: I assume they didn't feel the need for it since they already had the wax tablet and stylus.
2019-03-09T22:17:40Z aeth: yeah
2019-03-09T22:19:09Z pjb: Oh, and perhaps the advantage of wax tablet and stylus is that it was a prototype of stone carving. You could learn the same basic moves.
2019-03-09T22:20:07Z aeth: The Greeks had everything they needed to invent Lisp.[D
2019-03-09T22:20:14Z aeth: s/[D//
2019-03-09T22:20:14Z pjb: chalk came after we started to write using quills and ink on papyrus.
2019-03-09T22:20:20Z aeth: (Terminal inserted noise.)
2019-03-09T22:20:30Z aeth: I wonder why Lisp took so long, it doesn't require actual computers.
2019-03-09T22:21:39Z pjb: They didn't use formal maths either. This came very late too.
2019-03-09T22:23:36Z Zipheir: aeth: Then the GC would have been the kid who went around erasing slates...
2019-03-09T22:24:09Z Zipheir: aeth: Who would eventually get old and be replaced by his/her offspring, in which case you'd eventually get a generational GC.
2019-03-09T22:24:55Z aeth: pjb: Actually, I think you'd just need algebra (which, yes, came later). The Greeks were stuck thinking geometrically. It would probably be hard to think about substituting symbols without algebra, e.g. (let ((foo 42)) (+ foo foo))
2019-03-09T22:25:39Z aeth: Although that sort of symbol-as-words would probably be easier than stuff like 4x^2 + 3x + 2 = 7
2019-03-09T22:26:45Z aeth: They'd only need three special characters: - and ()
2019-03-09T22:27:40Z aeth: It would probably be harder to distinguish between numbers and variable names when you're using a system that predates the modern digits, e.g. Roman or Greek numerals.
2019-03-09T22:28:35Z Zipheir: You could import other alphabets.
2019-03-09T22:29:51Z pjb: Indeed, even at the time of al-Khwarizmi, there was no notion of variable. People did mathos always on concrete examples.
2019-03-09T22:29:59Z aeth: Zipheir: Well, they probably used a "this is a number" letter as a prefix in at least some systems.
2019-03-09T22:31:44Z Zipheir: It's always amazing to see how far ancient mathematicians/scientists/etc. got with so many conceptual and notational limitations.
2019-03-09T22:33:17Z pjb: Well, they mostly keep working with notational limitations. See sicm.
2019-03-09T22:33:55Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arMH5GjBwUQ
2019-03-09T22:34:18Z pjb: Bourbaki helped, but it was 50 years ago.
2019-03-09T22:38:55Z aeth: I think these days, the notational limitation is called "C-compatible syntax". Even just C syntax for C itself. My least favorite part of C syntax is the pointer syntax, which needlessly complicates things, and that's only really useful in C/C++. The whole point of using C is pointers, but it does pointers so poorly syntactically imo.
2019-03-09T22:39:51Z aeth: Anything more complicated than "foo *foobar" is a mess. And even just the common convention of writing it "foo *foobar" instead of "foo* foobar" or "foo * foobar" is a mess.
2019-03-09T22:40:45Z Zipheir: You mean you _don't_ find void ( *signal(int signum, void (*handler)(int)) ) (int) easy to understand??
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2019-03-09T22:41:57Z Zipheir: (Not the worst example by any means, but seen often enough to deserve special infamy.)
2019-03-09T22:45:54Z aeth: Spaces in type names is evil, too. unsigned long long int
2019-03-09T22:48:20Z aeth: I'm not sure why so many languages permit x+y+z at the expense of not allowing the variable name x-y-z. "x + y + z" isn't much more, and it makes the whole thing more legible, and you get proper variable names
2019-03-09T22:48:28Z aeth: (and type names)
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2019-03-09T22:53:58Z pjb: aeth: not counting that you can write unsigned long long int, long unsigned long int, long long unsigned int, long long int unsigned, unsigned long long int, long unsigned long int, long long unsigned int, long long int unsigned, unsigned long int long, long unsigned int long, long int unsigned long, long int long unsigned, unsigned long int long, long unsigned int long, long int unsigned long, long int long unsigned, unsigned i
2019-03-09T22:54:29Z pjb: and nothing prevents you to put in the middle some typedef or static or other stuff…
2019-03-09T23:16:08Z X-Scale: aeth: Dennis Ritchie makes it very clear and easy in K&Re2 on page 94:
2019-03-09T23:16:11Z X-Scale: 'The declaration of pointer ip, "int *ip;" is intended as a mnemonic; it says the expression *ip is an int. The syntax of the declaration for a variable mimics the syntax of expressions in which the variable might appear. This reasoning applies to function declarations as well.'
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2019-03-09T23:19:17Z aeth: X-Scale: still doesn't imo change the fact that it doesn't (imo) scale past that trivial example.
2019-03-09T23:20:12Z aeth: Perhaps they were blinded by the Unix philosophy, thinking that every program was going to be a small program that interacted through stdin/stdout glued together by shell scripting, and so you would never get the complexity that you get in today's programs.
2019-03-09T23:22:34Z X-Scale: People keep writing very complex and demanding programs in the C programming language. The Linux kernel is a proverbial example.
2019-03-09T23:23:51Z aeth: Yes, and it's amazing that that hideous (imo) pointer syntax is probably 99% of all pointer syntax encountered in programming today.
2019-03-09T23:24:26Z aeth: The Linux kernel has some macros that makes things uglier, too.
2019-03-09T23:24:32Z aeth: (As C macros generally do.)
2019-03-09T23:38:26Z aeth: Anyway, it's just my opinion, and obviously people probably disagree, but there's probably not *that* many areas where one syntax is so dominant in today's programming.
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2019-03-10T00:05:25Z adhoc: aeth: so what other examples, ideas of concept of "pointers" might we look at?
2019-03-10T00:05:39Z adhoc: s/of/or/
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2019-03-10T00:50:40Z aeth: adhoc: I don't do enough programming in this class of languages to be familiar with all of them.
2019-03-10T00:51:37Z aeth: I'm guessing that the way Pascal handles pointers is the main historic (i.e. available in the 1980s) alternative, but I don't know Pascal.
2019-03-10T00:52:33Z aeth: As far as 1980s languages go, Ada probably has a different approach to pointers, but I also don't know Ada.
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2019-03-10T01:07:06Z X-Scale: http://wiki.c2.com/?WhyPascalIsNotMyFavoriteProgrammingLanguage
2019-03-10T01:07:24Z X-Scale: http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html
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2019-03-10T01:28:25Z aeth: X-Scale: The size of the array being part of the type is absolutely imo an advantage of any language that does this over C. How many C functions either rely on a terminator or rely on being passed in a size argument that could easily be a lie?
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2019-03-10T01:29:47Z aeth: Of course, 1980s Pascal didn't handle this robustly enough so it seemed like a disadvantage at the time. I don't think you could just work on an arbitrary size (e.g. the type (string *) in Common Lisp as opposed to (string 42)) and methods for working on a subpart of the array needs to be carefully considered.
2019-03-10T01:29:52Z aeth: s/needs to be/need to be/
2019-03-10T01:35:58Z adhoc: aeth: so C does it one way, can you define a *better* way?
2019-03-10T01:37:53Z aeth: adhoc: A better way to do pointers? Knowing it can probably be done is easy, but actually doing it takes years of proglang design, in part because the list of languages attempting a better way grows (e.g. modern C++ and Rust) and you have to study all of them before actually doing it.
2019-03-10T01:39:22Z aeth: It's also possible that the solutions won't leave everyone happy (e.g. web browsers might want a different approach than OS kernels)
2019-03-10T01:41:11Z adhoc: indeed system and application use will likely differ
2019-03-10T01:41:35Z adhoc: speed is that magic thing folks make huge compromises for
2019-03-10T01:41:51Z aeth: Anyway, it's a lot easier to find serious flaws than be able to put the time to propose alternative solutions. e.g. I could list major flaws in Emacs in an hour or two, but replacing Emacs would take a year or two.
2019-03-10T01:42:04Z adhoc watches a VAXStation compile packages compile on NetBSD on the other terminal ...
2019-03-10T01:42:20Z adhoc: aeth: quite.
2019-03-10T01:42:47Z adhoc: I ask about this as some of my students struggle with pointers after learning Java
2019-03-10T01:43:06Z adhoc: So describing them in better ways, or a variety of ways is useful
2019-03-10T01:43:47Z aeth: I actually find pointers in C FFIs are often more straightforward than pointers in C because there's a lot more syntactic complexity instead of syntactic sugar, but that might just be my brain.
2019-03-10T01:44:57Z adhoc: I have found that narrowing the use case presented and giving students concrete exampls makes a big difference to their confidence
2019-03-10T01:45:07Z adhoc: howerver many get stuck in a rut
2019-03-10T01:45:14Z adhoc: so striking a balance is hard
2019-03-10T01:45:25Z adhoc: and that is something I would like to work on =)
2019-03-10T01:46:02Z adhoc: There is not enough time in one semester to present C and networking,
2019-03-10T01:46:45Z adhoc: I would like to squeeze in other things, like a scheme, however finding something that is well supported and has all the ideas in the language and/or library is a whole different problem
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2019-03-10T02:01:25Z aeth: adhoc: As far as teaching pointers go, I like the metaphor of pointers as indices into an array where the array is all of memory. So foo[22AE9EF6E7E1FAEE] to use a (literally) random 64-bit hex value
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2019-03-10T17:25:57Z jcowan: Go is actually a bad example for case sensitivity, because case is semantic:  "enlarge" (as a function name) is private, "Enlarge" is public, but "放大" cannot be made public except by some horrible hack like "X放大".
2019-03-10T17:27:24Z jcowan: aeth: C doesn't actually require that model: a model in which a pointer is {object, index} is ISO-correct, and Vacietis actually uses it.
2019-03-10T17:28:09Z ggole: Many languages make lexical distinctions based on case
2019-03-10T17:28:36Z jcowan: Also, Fortran and Algol have always supported spaces in identifiers of all sorts, not just types, and the Algol 68 standard library was full of identifiers like "write line".
2019-03-10T17:29:31Z jcowan: ggole: In the sense that they distinguish between identifiers based on case, yes, but I know of no other languages that require specific cases in specific uses.
2019-03-10T17:29:50Z jcowan: (I almost wrote "require specific cases in specific cases")
2019-03-10T17:30:23Z ggole: There are tons: the Pascal/Modula/Ada family, the ML/Haskell family, Prolog
2019-03-10T17:30:32Z ggole: Erlang
2019-03-10T17:31:32Z ggole: I suspect many others that I can't bring to mind
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2019-03-10T20:10:58Z aeth: jcowan: I find kebab-case is a nice compromise where it's almost as readable to humans as having spaces, but much nicer for machines, too.
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2019-03-10T21:20:21Z deuill: Amen, too bad a lot of languages don't allow for hyphens in identifiers, even if it isn't idiomatic. Insignificant spaces mumble mumble
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2019-03-10T21:21:22Z deuill: s/spaces/whitespace/
2019-03-10T21:21:59Z aeth: Apparently Perl 6 permits it because of course it does. It probably doesn't use it in its idiomatic code or its standard library, though.
2019-03-10T21:22:56Z deuill: So whitespace between operators is required?
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2019-03-10T21:25:28Z deuill: Ah I guess with the variable notation used, it would be unambiguous
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2019-03-11T01:50:23Z gwatt: aeth: actually, perl6 number's have a is-prime method.
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2019-03-11T01:59:46Z jcowan: Pascal and Ada are case-insensitive.  Modula-2 is case-sensitive, but keywords must be in uppercase (unlike C or C++ where they must be in lowercase).
2019-03-11T02:05:27Z gwatt: Recently, C introduced some keywords with uppercase, like _Generic
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2019-03-11T02:06:36Z jcowan: I grant Prolog, Erlang, and Haskell.  ML is case-sensitive but assigns no meaning to case.
2019-03-11T02:06:39Z jcowan: True
2019-03-11T02:07:00Z jcowan: So Prolog, Erlang, Haskell, and Go are the only identified languages with semantic case.
2019-03-11T02:08:58Z gwatt: scala as well, for match / case
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2019-03-11T02:24:09Z Riastradh: gwatt: Wonder what its definition of `prime' is!
2019-03-11T02:28:36Z Riastradh: Does it return a Pocklington or ECPP certificate, or does it merely run a few Rabin tests?
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2019-03-11T02:34:33Z Riastradh: jcowan: Aren't constructors uppercase-initial and everything else lowercase-initial in most ML dialects?
2019-03-11T02:36:20Z adhoc: are the modern implementations of ML folks would recommend?
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2019-03-11T02:39:20Z jcowan: Riastradh: I can't find any reference to that in SML '97.  I think it is pure convention.
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2019-03-11T02:40:52Z jcowan: adhoc: SML/NJ is the dominant implementation, in the same sense that GHC is the dominant implementation of Haskell
2019-03-11T02:41:09Z jcowan: (of Standard ML, that is; there are other MLs, notably OCaml)
2019-03-11T02:41:15Z jcowan: ML is a language family, like Lisp
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2019-03-11T02:51:06Z adhoc: jcowan: that makes sense
2019-03-11T02:51:10Z adhoc: thanks
2019-03-11T02:51:43Z jcowan: indeed, ML may be called "Lisp with (static) types" in more than one sense.
2019-03-11T02:52:22Z jcowan: and the decision in R6RS to make (and (procedure? x) (eqv? x x)) evaluate to either #t or #f has been called "ML envy".
2019-03-11T02:53:25Z Riastradh: I dunno, seems pretty reasonable to me.  Should pay up front for having a notion of identity if you want one.
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2019-03-11T03:02:23Z mrm: Eh, there's a lot to envy in ML.
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2019-03-11T03:07:33Z aeth: I would probably program in ML if not Lisp, but I like the syntactic flexibility macros give too much. e.g. (actually my favorite example) Lisps are the only languages that I know of that invert the typical web template systems... normally you do "<html>{{your programming logic here}}</html>" in .html, .css, etc. files, but in Lisps you do something like (html (div ...)) and embed it in your Lisp files
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2019-03-11T03:08:18Z aeth: So you generate the HTML, CSS, etc. from s-expressions rather than embed your logic into files of the HTML, CSS, etc.
2019-03-11T03:09:03Z amz3: +1
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2019-03-11T03:11:16Z aeth: And I should add that part of it is cultural. e.g. https://mustache.github.io/ supports Racket and Common Lisp so you *can* technically just use a traditional template system in a Lisp. And I'm sure some languages are powerful enough, even if more limited than a Lisp, where you can do something like what's common in Lisps.
2019-03-11T03:12:18Z aeth: (Note that the macros can be compile time expansions to HTML strings (or even mostly filled out HTML strings with some generatable blanks), though, so just doing it with OOP abstractions is probably going to be much slower.)
2019-03-11T03:15:00Z aeth: I bet C++ has an equivalent way of doing it, if you want to spend a few months.
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2019-03-11T04:55:01Z ym555: i'd love to get an lisp with ml types
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2019-03-11T05:02:06Z edgar-rft: you could combine Ponzi Scheme wirh Money Laundring
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2019-03-11T06:36:59Z aeth: edgar-rft: you convinced me that that was a real thing for a second because Ponzi Scheme is a real Scheme
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2019-03-11T12:22:32Z jcowan: aeth: It is?  I can find nothing.
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2019-03-11T14:32:01Z Riastradh: aeth: In C++ you can write html(div(...))...?
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2019-03-11T14:55:39Z deuill: I assume this is what aeth means: http://www.pyramid-scheme.org/
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2019-03-11T15:45:22Z z0d: wow. what a cool name
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2019-03-11T17:06:10Z names: dante aeth pony cmatei swamps nisstyre zooey ozzloy tessier emacsomancer peterhil edgar-rft drewc eagleflo comstar fadein lf94 niklasl turbofail zmt01 amoe em yumh Riastradh DeeEff cross yosafbridge deuill ArneBab mbakke jim nckx schaeffer ventonegro Seb[m] teej gwatt kwmiebach ec kilimanjaro samth sodastab X-Scale sudden ByronJohnson ravndal foof keep_learning defanor Guest40074 ft rain1 Kkiro_ scal knaas_ f8l greaser|q mario-goulart rotty dan64- Kooda
2019-03-11T17:06:10Z names: dkrm szgyg dpk erkin dieggsy jyc Riviera_ mrm profan_ iskander Blkt ypm1 stux16777216Away ohama ecraven fiddlerwoaroof pflanze Duns_Scrotus mats rich_ stephe alphor_ drot edcragg ghostyy rudybot evhan joast ski copec gko abbe adhoc wasamasa margaritamike friscosam buhman spectrumgomas[m] proksi[m] Gnuxie[m] willghatch[m] siraben Ericson2314 Jackiew2 krsiehl[m] jackhill cibs SirDayBat ineiros_ lloda davl stux|work weinholt GGMethos clog tolja scroll2_
2019-03-11T17:06:10Z names: DerGuteMoritz eMBee z0d shymega Kryo xelxebar fizzie gabot gnomon cky lpsmith vxe terrorjack M_D_K asumu duncanm rjungemann greghendershott jp
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2019-03-11T18:46:57Z brettgilio: Hi all, I am trying to get geiser to M-x run-chicken but I am getting the following error.
2019-03-11T18:46:59Z brettgilio: error CS2007: Unrecognized option: '-n'
2019-03-11T18:46:59Z brettgilio: error CS2007: Unrecognized option: '-include-path'
2019-03-11T18:46:59Z brettgilio: error CS1504: Source file '/home/brettg/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/geiser-20190224.2048/scheme/chicken/' could not be opened -- Access to the path '/home/brettg/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/geiser-20190224.2048/scheme/chicken/' is denied.
2019-03-11T18:47:01Z brettgilio:  
2019-03-11T18:47:04Z brettgilio: Process Chicken REPL exited abnormally with code 1
2019-03-11T18:47:07Z brettgilio:  
2019-03-11T18:47:10Z brettgilio: Any thoughts?
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2019-03-11T18:48:38Z daviid: brettgilio: you may wana ask on #geiser
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2019-03-11T21:19:21Z amz3: anyone has a lazy k-combination procedure around?
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2019-03-11T21:25:19Z amz3: I think I am going too far
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2019-03-12T05:04:06Z dieggsy: are there any srfis for multimethods/multiple dispatch?
2019-03-12T05:07:44Z dieggsy: i feel like i hvae this idea for syntax that's like (define-method (fn (var predicate1?) (var2 predicate2?)) body ...) but every implementation i see actually uses some form of like... object or name instead of predicate
2019-03-12T05:08:07Z dieggsy: to be fair, i've never implemented multimethods myself so
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2019-03-12T11:39:04Z jcowan: dieggsy: No, not yet, but https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/lib/chibi/generic.scm is basically the same idea, and should work wherever ER macros do (currently MIT, Chicken, Scheme48/scsh, Sagittarius, Picrin, Chibi, Larceny).
2019-03-12T11:39:43Z jcowan: the ER macro is needed only to support (call-next-method), and if you don't need that it would be trivial to reformulate as syntax-rules, which is completely portable
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2019-03-12T12:25:14Z catonano: jcowan: what is an ER macro ?
2019-03-12T12:26:17Z jcowan: One written using the "explicit renaming" system, one of three to four competing systems in Scheme for writing low-level macros.
2019-03-12T12:32:03Z catonano: ah :-/
2019-03-12T12:32:09Z catonano: jcowan: thanks
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2019-03-12T13:15:09Z devon: G'day.  Which implementations can use a random shared binary *.{dll,dylib,so} known only at run time?
2019-03-12T13:20:37Z mario-goulart: devon: not sure if I fully understand your question, but it seems that CHICKEN 4 with the lazy-ffi egg (http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/lazy-ffi) would do that.
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2019-03-12T13:52:27Z jcowan: Essentially all non-toy implementations have FFIs of some sort.  Is the interface known before run time, or do you really mean anything at all?
2019-03-12T13:54:36Z jcowan: The nm command, or its equivalent in terms of deciphering ELF or PE format, can give you the names of the functions in it, but there really isn't enough information in any of those formats to determine how to call them.
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2019-03-12T13:54:53Z devon: By "known only at run time" I mean "without recompiling the scheme system itself"
2019-03-12T13:56:09Z wasamasa: racket should do this
2019-03-12T13:56:28Z wasamasa: try looking for scheme systems depending on libffi or dyncall
2019-03-12T13:57:12Z wasamasa: this gives you guile and racket on arch
2019-03-12T13:57:53Z devon: As far as I know, you need not only the shared binary but also the C or C++ header files ... and hope there's no version skew.
2019-03-12T13:58:15Z wasamasa: but also mickey-scheme :D
2019-03-12T13:58:27Z wasamasa: which is like one of the worst out there
2019-03-12T13:59:01Z wasamasa: sagitarrius is another one
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2019-03-12T13:59:35Z wasamasa: in newlisp and txr-lisp I just needed to specify the shared library, but I have never tested it without header files, these are just part of packages on arch
2019-03-12T14:00:56Z devon: Prefer a small embeddable R7RS, perhaps Chibi although it seems to only hack shared libraries build specifically for chibi.
2019-03-12T14:01:23Z wasamasa: good luck with that
2019-03-12T14:01:26Z devon: lol
2019-03-12T14:01:55Z wasamasa: picrin claims to be such a thing, but fails building on master, doesn't handle utf-8 or even load up user-defined libraries
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2019-03-12T14:04:57Z wasamasa: so your only embeddable r7rs option is chibi
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2019-03-12T14:05:44Z wasamasa: maybe go for r6rs/r5rs (guile) or r4rs (tinyscheme) instead
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2019-03-12T14:07:17Z devon: Chibi fails my "no C compiler" requirement but seems otherwise ok.  Might try porting a *.h groveler although such a project may be doomed to balloon.
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2019-03-12T14:10:15Z devon: Guile seems too big ... but here in the future size doesn't matter.
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2019-03-12T14:26:34Z jcowan: devon: Chibi already has such a groveler, chibi-ffi.
2019-03-12T14:27:39Z jcowan: Its output is C shims which you then need to compile.
2019-03-12T14:30:56Z jcowan: Chibi's performance is also excellent, probably the fastest bytecode Scheme interpreter available.  It doesn't yet have a JIT though.  It also has a *lot* of compile-time options if you are worried about size.
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2019-03-12T15:13:01Z amz3: what is the hash of an algorithm?
2019-03-12T15:15:44Z amz3: I am still on the riddle, it is more complicated that I was thinking. Right now, I have a property that can decide whether a particular set is solution, but I still don't know how to compute a minimal set :)
2019-03-12T15:16:00Z amz3: s/property/procedure/
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2019-03-12T15:49:02Z TCZ: o.O
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2019-03-12T16:35:40Z dieggsy: jcowan: thanks for the pointer to chibi's generic function interface, seems to be pretty much what i had in mind
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2019-03-13T02:27:56Z ahungry: In guile, is there a good way to time a function for performance?  Running the default guile REPL and loading a file, it doesn't seem that the calls to statprof (whether I use (statprof (lambda () ...)) or manually reset/start/stop/display calls works
2019-03-13T02:28:03Z ahungry: it always informs me, nothing was profiled
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2019-03-13T02:29:04Z duncanm: Riastrad1: hey hey
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2019-03-13T06:42:59Z ecraven: jcowan: I've tried to compare chibi performance to lua a few years ago, it was about half as fast as lua
2019-03-13T06:43:13Z ecraven: (yea, apples to oranges, it was just a very rough test of trying to use it instead of lua in a game)
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2019-03-13T11:01:35Z jcowan: ecraven: yeah, that's to be expected considering how much Lua has been optimized over the years, plus the tighter limitations of the language
2019-03-13T11:02:09Z ecraven: it's been interesting to check, and my test case wasn't very large, mostly just interfacing with dear imgui via the cffi
2019-03-13T11:04:07Z ecraven: I'm guessing all the low-hanging fruit in optimising chibi has been eaten?
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2019-03-13T11:05:24Z jcowan: No idea, that's a foof question
2019-03-13T11:07:35Z ecraven: foof: ^ any ideas on that?
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2019-03-13T14:01:58Z amz3: please help https://stackoverflow.com/q/55143485/140837
2019-03-13T14:03:57Z amz3: https://math.stackexchange.com/q/3146568/23663
2019-03-13T14:03:59Z amz3: oops
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2019-03-13T17:59:41Z devon: Can R7RS portably (read) from a string?
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2019-03-13T18:09:23Z pjb: devon: see open-input-string
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2019-03-13T18:26:38Z devon: pjb: THX!  How about apropos?
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2019-03-13T19:03:39Z taylan: devon: how do you mean?
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2019-03-13T19:12:38Z devon: taylan: (apropos "foo") ; tells you something about everything whose name contains "foo"
2019-03-13T19:13:11Z taylan: devon: if you mean whether standard Scheme has such a feature, nope
2019-03-13T19:13:35Z devon: I noticed that but obviously it has been implemented many, many times.
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2019-03-13T19:14:27Z taylan: I think it wouldn't be possible to implement in any existing Scheme standard, because to my knowledge none of them allow you to enumerate the contents of an "environment" object
2019-03-13T19:14:33Z taylan: maybe R6RS, but I don't think so
2019-03-13T19:14:56Z taylan: of course most Scheme implementations offer non-standard features that allow such things
2019-03-13T19:15:26Z pjb: nope, no apropos in the index of r7rs.
2019-03-13T19:16:02Z Zipheir: Seems like a shell feature to me.
2019-03-13T19:17:40Z devon: Hmm, environments not first-class *tsk*!
2019-03-13T19:18:05Z taylan: devon: they are first-class, but they're opaque
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2019-03-13T19:19:12Z devon: (get-environment-variables) ; seems to work.
2019-03-13T19:19:25Z Zipheir: devon: c.f. SRFIs 165 & 112
2019-03-13T19:21:09Z taylan: ugh, I hate the monad abstract nonsense
2019-03-13T19:21:43Z Zipheir: What's so bad about it?
2019-03-13T19:22:15Z taylan: I've been able to grasp syntax-case and delimited continuations, but still not monads
2019-03-13T19:22:54Z taylan: I blame the fact that it comes from mathematicians who love their fancy terms and would rather die than explain something in plain english
2019-03-13T19:23:37Z Zipheir: It doesn't require any knowledge of mathematics to use monads. They're just a pattern of sequential programm.
2019-03-13T19:23:42Z Zipheir: programming, even!
2019-03-13T19:23:46Z taylan: case in hand: I never understood delimited continuations either until I grasped guile's call-with-prompt feature
2019-03-13T19:24:31Z taylan: because call-with-prompt makes it quite explicit what goes on.  no weird special forms with strange names injected into the middle of your sexp structure.
2019-03-13T19:25:09Z Zipheir: There is no one road to enlightenment, I suppose.
2019-03-13T19:26:19Z Zipheir: A lot of the confusion surrounding monads comes from (a) the imposing terminology and (b) the fact that most people first hear of the Haskell IO monad, which is a magic monad.
2019-03-13T19:26:39Z taylan: off-topic: I still can't f**king believe that Wikipedia is literally blocked within the Turkish Republic.  every second thing I google returns a Wikipedia page at the top and I wonder every time why the page won't load...
2019-03-13T19:27:09Z Zipheir: Ugh, censorship.
2019-03-13T19:28:28Z gwatt: taylan: can you use a proxy?
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2019-03-13T19:29:49Z devon: https://ArsTechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/all-of-wikipedia-can-be-installed-to-your-desktop-in-just-30-hours
2019-03-13T19:29:49Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/lmdSA1f3fo
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2019-03-13T19:33:03Z taylan: gwatt: I can connect to my workplace in Germany via VPN, or change "wikipedia.org" in the URL to "0wikipedia.org" which returns a mirror site.  it's mostly just annoying.
2019-03-13T19:34:26Z taylan: back to the topic: I had googled "delimited continuations" to remind me what weird identifiers are commonly used.  it's "shift" and "reset".  the heck is "shift" and "reset" supposed to mean? :\
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2019-03-13T19:51:55Z rain1: it's like asking what's x an y in algebra
2019-03-13T19:58:03Z Zipheir: Someone who explains delimited continuations as "it's just shift and reset" is clearly trolling.
2019-03-13T19:59:21Z Zipheir: Like the old chestnut "a monad is just a monoid on the category of endofunctors"
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2019-03-13T20:05:32Z gwatt: I think that one at least originated as a joke
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2019-03-13T20:10:19Z Duns_Scrotus: Zipheir: a lot of the c onfusion surrounding monads is that they're just not that much of a concept but people insist on calling the mout whenever they can to look smart
2019-03-13T20:10:43Z amz3: re: riddle https://math.stackexchange.com/a/3146674/23663
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2019-03-13T20:18:21Z friscosam: /shift/ shifts the delimited continuation into an object, /reset/ is where you reset back to after an abort
2019-03-13T20:18:50Z friscosam: delimited continuations are really just control and prompt :)
2019-03-13T20:23:20Z rain1: ok
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2019-03-13T20:36:01Z Zipheir: Duns_Scrotus: Heh, I suppose applicative functors are name-dropped much because they don't have that Leibnitzian zazz that marks you as a hip functional hacker.
2019-03-13T20:36:06Z Zipheir: s/are/aren't/
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2019-03-13T21:18:30Z jcowan: taylan: See https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/ContextsCowan.md for my take on it
2019-03-13T21:20:13Z jcowan: (not yet complete)
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2019-03-13T21:33:23Z Zipheir: I'm a fan of some of the design choices in ContextsCowan. It's refreshingly Scheme-flavored compared to the many slavish Haskell copies out there.
2019-03-13T21:33:43Z Zipheir: (Schemian? There's no analog to 'Pythonic' here.)
2019-03-13T21:34:35Z TCZ: Racketeer
2019-03-13T21:35:18Z Zipheir: The corresponding question came up in #haskell once and I suggested 'well-curried'
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2019-03-13T21:36:43Z Zipheir: Hmm, Schematic, I suppose.
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2019-03-13T22:18:07Z friscosam: Schemely
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2019-03-13T22:42:57Z jcowan: Schemely or Schemish
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2019-03-14T06:55:21Z catonano: jcowan: I don't understand this sentence: "A context is a container for zero or more ordinary Scheme objects such that the objects can be manipulated within the container without removing them from it".
2019-03-14T06:55:53Z catonano: why would I want to manipulate objects in a container withouut removing them from it ? Which use case is this referring to ?
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2019-03-14T14:28:27Z gwatt: catonano: think of mapping over a list. You don't want to change the size of the collection, just get a transformed one back
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2019-03-14T17:31:13Z catonano: gwatt: yes. But that's not enough. A simple example would do. When/why would I want to acces env objects ? How would that jcowan thing help ?
2019-03-14T17:31:20Z catonano: gwatt: thanks, anyway
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2019-03-14T17:52:25Z Zipheir: catonano: State, maybe, list, etc. monads all become an option.
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2019-03-14T17:54:37Z Zipheir: catonano: Rather than constantly passing around new values to update an identifier, say, you can wrap it in a container and thread it through your procedures invisibly.
2019-03-14T17:55:37Z catonano: Zipheir: ah. This resonates, somehow
2019-03-14T17:56:37Z catonano: Zipheir: thanks. But if anyone has other comments, I'd be glad to hear them
2019-03-14T17:57:40Z Zipheir: Monadic parsers using a 'maybe' type are a classic example. There's a result that's passed through every parsing function--if it's #f, all further parses fail. Otherwise, it accumulates the parse results.
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2019-03-14T17:58:55Z Zipheir: (Use a list as parsing state and you get a nondeterministic parser.)
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2019-03-14T18:18:20Z catonano: Zipheir: uhm ok
2019-03-14T18:19:03Z catonano: I'd love to see an example of a monadic parser
2019-03-14T18:27:00Z Zipheir: catonano: This is a really good presentation http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pearl.pdf
2019-03-14T18:27:10Z Zipheir: catonano: (In haskell, but fairly easy.)
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2019-03-14T18:39:10Z catonano: Zipheir: thanks !
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2019-03-14T19:14:12Z amz3: catonano: davexunit's parser combinator are apparantly monadic
2019-03-14T19:14:31Z catonano: amz3: thanks
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2019-03-14T19:51:58Z Riastradh: My parser combinators are nomadic.
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2019-03-14T21:37:00Z friscosam: Hunter gatherer parser combinators
2019-03-14T21:41:00Z Zipheir: We speared five expressions today, but Jeff was mauled by an operator.
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2019-03-15T01:39:12Z sodastab: hmm srfi 25 is rather minimal
2019-03-15T01:41:24Z sodastab: I'll have to make my own array-map function
2019-03-15T01:41:58Z sodastab: no external representation?
2019-03-15T01:42:15Z aeth: is there an update in a later SRFI or proposal?
2019-03-15T01:42:20Z aeth: lots of early SRFIs have later revisions
2019-03-15T01:42:55Z sodastab: 25 is multidimensional array primitives, there's an advanced multidimensional array srfi currently being worked on
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2019-03-15T01:43:17Z sodastab: enhanced multidimensional arrays
2019-03-15T01:43:40Z sodastab: 163 and 164
2019-03-15T01:43:46Z sodastab: no module for CHICKEN though
2019-03-15T01:44:21Z Zipheir: They're some of the newest SRFIs.
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2019-03-15T14:46:47Z gwatt: github no longer shows brackets in scheme as being A Bad Thing!
2019-03-15T14:47:31Z rain1: lol nice
2019-03-15T14:47:36Z rain1: that took a while
2019-03-15T14:49:01Z gwatt: github finally just switched to a different highlighter. textmate is remains obstinent.
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2019-03-15T14:54:56Z amz3: #win
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2019-03-15T15:07:45Z gwatt: yeah, now I don't have to write my silly gists with only parentheses
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2019-03-15T15:19:15Z jackhill isn't familar with brackets in scheme
2019-03-15T15:21:04Z gwatt: in r6rs, brackets are identical to parentheses, but brackets must terminate brackets, and parens must terminate parens
2019-03-15T15:21:47Z gwatt: [ and ] give a nice visual distinction in the sea ( ) ( ) ( ) (()()()())
2019-03-15T15:23:46Z jackhill: gwatt: ah, cool thanks. Yes, I can see how that would be nice. I'm still mostly in r5rs-land.
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2019-03-15T16:33:52Z Zipheir: Ugh, brackets. One of R6RS's uglier ideas.
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2019-03-15T17:07:05Z jcowan: The R7RS WG decided against R6RS brackets, even though the R7RS reader is not extensible (and I think, never will be)
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2019-03-15T17:54:02Z amz3: brackets are reserved for skribe :)
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2019-03-15T19:07:27Z pierpal: brackets in any lisp make me puke
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2019-03-15T19:10:50Z Duns_Scrotus: yeah god forbid someone be able to read it
2019-03-15T19:11:47Z jcowan: On arrays:  SRFI 122 is finalized and covers much the same ground as the in-progress SRFI 136
2019-03-15T19:12:48Z jcowan: we'll vote on the Orange Edition ballot
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2019-03-15T20:33:24Z DeeEff: Isn't SRFI 136 extensible record types?
2019-03-15T20:33:57Z DeeEff: 163: enhanced array literals perhaps?
2019-03-15T20:37:30Z jcowan: Yes, sorry
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2019-03-16T04:31:05Z aeth: jcowan: Good news. Hopefully one of the three obtacles (ASDF integration, efficient continuations, mutable global environment) to my Scheme implementation will go away soon.
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2019-03-16T10:11:39Z amz3: I love it when I write (apply values out)
2019-03-16T10:12:03Z amz3: I am wondering how it works
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2019-03-16T10:34:16Z amz3: also I just discovered how to use (apply proc 'foo '(bar baz))
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2019-03-16T14:21:18Z jcowan: aeth: Awesome. Which one?
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2019-03-16T16:55:09Z soegaard: Hi All. A quick note to say that the grammar Github uses to highlight Scheme code has changed.
2019-03-16T16:55:11Z soegaard: https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/4437
2019-03-16T16:55:18Z wasamasa: finally
2019-03-16T16:55:36Z soegaard: The new repo is here:  https://github.com/sicp-lang/scheme.tmbundle
2019-03-16T16:56:10Z soegaard: Only change for now is that square brackets are no longer colored error-red.
2019-03-16T16:57:06Z soegaard: Thanks to sorawee.
2019-03-16T17:02:14Z friscosam: I always just read the "error-red" as delightful alternative highlighting :)
2019-03-16T17:06:03Z amz3: :)
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2019-03-16T17:44:39Z Zipheir: It seems like if GitHub were actually innovative they would have per-repository customizable highlighting.
2019-03-16T17:45:14Z wasamasa: they have their priorities
2019-03-16T17:45:19Z wasamasa: such as making private repos free
2019-03-16T17:46:23Z Zipheir: GitHub, where everything is free but our codebase
2019-03-16T17:47:20Z soegaard: Check the comment by "aroben commented on 19 Nov 2014"   here: https://github.com/github/linguist/issues/1717
2019-03-16T17:47:42Z wasamasa: you can link to these directly
2019-03-16T17:47:59Z soegaard: Fast highligthing = money saved on servers
2019-03-16T17:48:11Z wasamasa: yup
2019-03-16T17:48:35Z wasamasa: I can't even imagine what kind of infrastructure they run if you consider how much of a pain gitlab is to self-host
2019-03-16T17:49:49Z Zipheir: Hah. "Of course we'll pull your changes through the magic of OPENSOURCE"
2019-03-16T17:51:26Z Zipheir: The irony. The only impressive thing about git is how fast and space efficient it is, yet all the popular frontends are behemoths.
2019-03-16T17:51:51Z friscosam: well it's part of the VALUE ADD
2019-03-16T17:51:59Z wasamasa: maybe I should host a modified cgit or so
2019-03-16T17:52:14Z wasamasa: one with a plaintext-readme for every project
2019-03-16T17:52:23Z Zipheir: Yeah, cgit's OK.
2019-03-16T17:52:41Z wasamasa: other than that I'm fine with its vanilla behavior
2019-03-16T17:52:49Z wasamasa: I don't need issue tracking or that other social stuff
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2019-03-16T17:53:34Z friscosam: fwiw all of these are so much better than Sourceforge
2019-03-16T17:53:58Z soegaard: Still doesn't understand what happened to SourceForge.
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2019-03-16T17:54:40Z Zipheir: It's unbelievable how bad SourceForge got.
2019-03-16T17:54:53Z soegaard: Indeed.
2019-03-16T17:54:59Z friscosam: VA Linux sold it and Slashdot to less repuatble folks
2019-03-16T17:55:24Z friscosam: reputable even
2019-03-16T17:56:48Z Zipheir: Which is a good lesson to remember wrt other centralized services.
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2019-03-16T18:02:42Z friscosam: Yeah at least the code repo part of Github/lab/etc is pretty portable
2019-03-16T18:10:37Z X-Scale: Zipheir: Indeed. Most people still haven't figured out the real danger of centralized services.
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2019-03-16T18:25:01Z amz3: gnunet ftw
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2019-03-17T19:16:25Z amz3`: I am trying to benchmark my triple store against java triple store (blazegraph) and what seems to be written in C called virtuoso
2019-03-17T19:17:02Z amz3`: it is a rather long process...
2019-03-17T19:19:26Z amz3`: I know I have no chance to beat those software but still, I need to know how far from the industry state-of-the-art I am.
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2019-03-17T19:31:51Z ecraven: what do you mean "no chance". some Scheme compiler produce rather fast code ;D
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2019-03-17T19:45:38Z amz3`: yeah, maybe, idk.
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2019-03-18T20:15:16Z johnjay: is R7RS a good system or is R5RS better?
2019-03-18T20:15:23Z johnjay: not a troll - I promise!
2019-03-18T20:16:27Z rain1: R7RS is good
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2019-03-18T20:19:53Z wasamasa: give r7rs some more time though
2019-03-18T20:20:53Z razzy thinks simpler=better
2019-03-18T20:27:08Z amz3`: r7rs ftw
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2019-03-18T20:30:20Z rain1: I agree simpler is better, and it's unfortunate that  R7RS  isn't simpler than R5RS but it is much simpler than R6RS
2019-03-18T20:32:05Z wasamasa: it covers lots of common ground missing in r5rs
2019-03-18T20:32:08Z wasamasa: such as records
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2019-03-18T21:03:21Z Zipheir: razzy: Simpler is better, but a simple spec supported by tons of complex, non-portable code for actually writing programs isn't simpler in practice. :-/
2019-03-18T21:04:40Z Zipheir: I would call that "Stone Soup" simplicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Soup
2019-03-18T21:06:32Z razzy: or people did not think hard enough :] to make simple also powerfull
2019-03-18T21:07:54Z razzy: Zipheir: i agree with stone soup allegory but propably not conclusions :].
2019-03-18T21:09:40Z Zipheir: razzy: I think I do agree with you that things should be simplified relentlessly.
2019-03-18T21:10:46Z razzy: #no-mercy on half baked ideas!
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2019-03-18T21:11:50Z Zipheir: razzy: But claiming that R5 is sufficient for general-purpose programming is claiming you can make delicious soup out of a rock. As much as people bash R6, it at least tried to provide the other ingredients.
2019-03-18T21:13:02Z Zipheir: razzy: So, no matter how hard you think, either the spec will have to include things like string libraries or you'll have to rely on implementations to come up with their own.
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2019-03-18T21:15:28Z razzy: Zipheir: i also agree that simple specification that is build by complex not portable code is not healthy.
2019-03-18T21:16:29Z razzy: i did not invest much time in scheme, but i think there is plenty room for improvement :]
2019-03-18T21:16:46Z razzy: trying to do some on my own :]
2019-03-18T21:19:40Z Zipheir: razzy: What specifically does it need? (I'm asking sincerely, not trying to start a flame war)
2019-03-18T21:27:09Z razzy: Zipheir: scheme?
2019-03-18T21:29:16Z razzy: consolidate all good experimental scheme ideas about concurency and scheduling into one scheme. with about 50 core functions. and 10 page manual
2019-03-18T21:30:17Z razzy: everything that does not make a cut, put in external library
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2019-03-18T21:31:20Z Zipheir: Concurrency in core Scheme?
2019-03-18T21:32:09Z Zipheir: I know it's on the menu for R7RS-large. I forget which edition.
2019-03-18T21:33:40Z razzy: i think 10 page manual and 50 core functions is hard enough constrain
2019-03-18T21:34:18Z Zipheir: For the entire language??
2019-03-18T21:35:49Z razzy: Zipheir: yop. for core, that defines external libraries
2019-03-18T21:37:37Z Zipheir: R5 is already twice that, so it ain't happening.
2019-03-18T21:38:27Z Zipheir: Maybe TinyScheme would be close to that, if it had any actual documentation.
2019-03-18T21:38:46Z razzy: Zipheir: https://picolisp.com/wiki/?home is half way there
2019-03-18T21:39:19Z Zipheir: Yeah, picolisp.
2019-03-18T21:42:26Z Zipheir: But no lambda ;_;
2019-03-18T21:43:42Z rain1: Would you like to check out my scheme, https://github.com/rain-1/single_cream
2019-03-18T21:44:22Z razzy: Zipheir: there is anonymous function in picolisp
2019-03-18T21:44:41Z razzy: just not called lambda
2019-03-18T21:45:26Z Zipheir: rain1: Cool, you've got jbob tests
2019-03-18T21:45:36Z rain1: yeah i was really happy that jbob worked on it!
2019-03-18T21:46:48Z Zipheir: rain1: Nice work! Very clean codebase.
2019-03-18T21:47:08Z wasamasa: razzy: such as?
2019-03-18T21:47:15Z wasamasa: no, quote isn't one
2019-03-18T21:47:23Z rain1: thank you!
2019-03-18T21:47:35Z razzy: wasamasa: such as?
2019-03-18T21:47:44Z wasamasa: <razzy> Zipheir: there is anonymous function in picolisp
2019-03-18T21:48:32Z razzy: wasamasa: quote is one :] in my oppinion :]
2019-03-18T21:49:12Z wasamasa fails razzy at lisp 101
2019-03-18T21:49:39Z razzy: wasamasa: :( i think they work the same :]
2019-03-18T21:49:55Z wasamasa: go read sicp
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2019-03-18T21:51:47Z razzy: not enough time
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2019-03-18T22:07:42Z razzy: rain1: i like the small interpretters :]
2019-03-18T22:07:57Z rain1: me too :P
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2019-03-18T22:14:29Z ober hunts for any swagger implementations for scheme
2019-03-18T22:21:08Z adhoc: ober: so swagger is for API design ?
2019-03-18T22:21:50Z adhoc: I suppose the bigger question is, how will it help you?
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2019-03-18T22:25:41Z Zipheir: "If hee swagger, let him not come here: I must liue amongst my Neighbors, Ile no Swaggerers."
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2019-03-18T22:29:43Z ober: adhoc: yeah, the Swagger, OpenAPI seems pretty pointless huh?
2019-03-18T22:30:19Z ober: adhoc: can I get your qualifications so I can forward them to the committee? :P
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2019-03-18T22:32:05Z Zipheir: Swagger Scheme = Scheme For The REST Of Us?
2019-03-18T22:32:13Z rain1: lol
2019-03-18T22:33:48Z ober notes to not mention 'RFC' to adhoc
2019-03-18T22:34:00Z adhoc: ober: I like RFC's
2019-03-18T22:34:22Z adhoc: ober: if OpenAPI is what you are aiming for then, that is what I was after.
2019-03-18T22:35:12Z adhoc: ober: do not be so fast to scorn when folks have a question, lest you drive folks away from learning what you have to offer.
2019-03-18T22:35:24Z ober: yes, a code gen that stubs out other people's apis
2019-03-18T22:35:40Z adhoc: ah
2019-03-18T22:35:56Z adhoc: that is the bit that was missing for me.
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2019-03-18T22:36:15Z adhoc: ober: thanks =)
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2019-03-18T22:57:04Z amz3: ober: I was under the impression that swagger was a way to document apis
2019-03-18T22:57:36Z amz3: things like https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/
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2019-03-18T23:04:53Z ober: like wsdls
2019-03-18T23:05:09Z ober: it's a way to generate client code to interact with those apis
2019-03-18T23:05:20Z ober: e.g. slack-swagger.json to generate a slack client
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2019-03-18T23:08:04Z amz3: I did not know about that part of swagger
2019-03-18T23:08:08Z amz3: neat
2019-03-18T23:15:51Z amz3: the lexicographic encoding algorithm of foundationdb allows to encode integers up to 2^2039
2019-03-18T23:16:16Z amz3: it fills two lines of my terminal screen
2019-03-18T23:16:24Z amz3: s/two/three/
2019-03-18T23:16:55Z amz3: time to port it to scheme :)
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2019-03-18T23:51:30Z johnjay: eh not to sound nitpicky but
2019-03-18T23:51:40Z johnjay: these kinds of talks don't include the source code do they?
2019-03-18T23:51:42Z johnjay: http://scheme2016.snow-fort.org/
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2019-03-19T01:24:40Z friscosam: johnjay: sometimes they do.  There is a push within CS academia to make computational artifacts (source, etc.) available so results can be reproduced
2019-03-19T01:27:33Z friscosam: https://www.acm.org/publications/policies/artifact-review-badging
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2019-03-19T01:38:09Z adhoc: friscosam: the novelty
2019-03-19T01:40:53Z daviid: this document is very general, oriented toward (medical) measurements repro, I'm lokng for a document (I cold send to 'reluctents') whicu writes, black on white, that it implies strict use of free s/w (as i freedom, GPL or LGPL compatible), is there such an article? or am I dreaming?
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2019-03-19T01:57:06Z friscosam: That may be a good question for someone involved with ACM more than me (a casual observer.)  Andy Wingo is on the artifact evaluation committee for ICFP 2019 he might know more ...
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2019-03-19T02:08:07Z daviid: friscosam: ok, thanks
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2019-03-19T13:55:47Z amz3: johnjay: there is code for the miniadapton and guile jit
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2019-03-19T15:56:43Z lf94: til uLisp is all I really wanted
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2019-03-19T15:56:55Z lf94: ultra minimal, works on 8-bit microcontrollers, but still as powerful
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2019-03-19T16:43:59Z Zipheir: Is there (yet) anything like a convention for non-core library names?
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2019-03-19T16:44:46Z Zipheir: For instance, if I come up with a neat structure, would I name the library (structure barfoo) ?
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2019-03-19T16:46:01Z Zipheir: Clearly (srfi ...) and (scheme ...) are reserved, but beyond that there seem to be few guidelines.
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2019-03-19T17:11:30Z amz3: r7rs libraries are singular that it is (scheme comparator) not (scheme comparators)
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2019-03-19T17:12:13Z amz3: in my project, I follow this rule also, everything that is custom in in 'azul' namespace, every ffi in 'cffi' module and POSIX stuff in 'posix'
2019-03-19T17:12:30Z amz3: like I have a custom stream implementation it is in 'azul'
2019-03-19T17:12:49Z amz3: industria libraries are in their own namespace at top level, like (hashing sha2)
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2019-03-19T17:26:37Z Zipheir: Those seem like good conventions.
2019-03-19T17:29:49Z Zipheir: Haskell is an OK model too, e.g. (text parsec) for a parsing library, (control ...) for libraries providing control structures, etc.
2019-03-19T17:31:32Z Zipheir: But some sort of organization would be good, lest the Curse of Lisp strike and we all end up using a thousand ad-hoc naming conventions.
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2019-03-19T17:57:35Z johnjay: I thought this was the curse of lisp?
2019-03-19T17:57:38Z johnjay: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2019-03-19T17:58:03Z Zipheir: It is.
2019-03-19T17:59:03Z johnjay: fascinating
2019-03-19T18:00:14Z Zipheir: "Incomplete and unrefined, identifiers undefined--The Curse of Lisp! The Curse of Lisp!" (verse not included in the Land of Lisp song)
2019-03-19T18:01:04Z johnjay: hah, i can't imagine someone going into #C and asking hey guys I'm thinking of using an OO module for C
2019-03-19T18:01:06Z johnjay: any ideas??
2019-03-19T18:02:53Z johnjay: that essay keep mentionining being "portable across lisp systems"
2019-03-19T18:03:22Z johnjay: is it realistic to make something portable between scheme, sbcl, and picolisp for example?
2019-03-19T18:05:31Z Zipheir: Only something completely trivial, I imagine.
2019-03-19T18:05:48Z Zipheir: Even memv isn't portable between those.
2019-03-19T18:05:57Z Zipheir: 4
2019-03-19T18:06:02Z Zipheir: 4 is portable. There you go.
2019-03-19T18:07:33Z johnjay: well. 4 is probably turing complete
2019-03-19T18:08:45Z Zipheir: Portable across Schemes is a reasonable goal, even if it can be tough at the moment.
2019-03-19T18:10:08Z rain1: you could make a small portability layer reimplemented differently for each lisp that allows your main application to be the same
2019-03-19T18:10:46Z rain1: https://github.com/the-little-prover/j-bob does this
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2019-03-19T18:13:26Z Zipheir: Right, that's a good approach.
2019-03-19T18:13:35Z johnjay: Zipheir do you know what he means about pharo being a great IDE?
2019-03-19T18:13:49Z johnjay: i'm not aware of smalltalk having exceptionally great IDEs?
2019-03-19T18:13:55Z Zipheir: johnjay: Who? what?
2019-03-19T18:14:04Z Zipheir: johnjay: In the Curse of Lisp article?
2019-03-19T18:15:24Z Zipheir: No, I see no 'pharo' here.
2019-03-19T18:15:35Z johnjay: Ctrl-f "average smalltalk hacker"
2019-03-19T18:15:39Z johnjay: the article has a lot of dead links
2019-03-19T18:15:50Z Zipheir: Aha
2019-03-19T18:17:05Z johnjay: i kind of want to try out zmacs on a lisp machine now that he brought it up
2019-03-19T18:17:07Z johnjay: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/188pjd/a_programming_editor_to_replace_emacs/
2019-03-19T18:18:11Z Zipheir: It's sort of a silly argument, as the Lisp community has the mother of all IDEs...
2019-03-19T18:20:00Z Zipheir: (The Smalltalk vs. Lisp IDEs argument, that is. IDEs are silly anyway.)
2019-03-19T18:20:30Z jcowan: Reverse domain/email names, like in Java, certainly aren't going to step on any toes.
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2019-03-19T18:32:30Z johnjay: ok i found zmacs for windows on a cadr emulator
2019-03-19T18:32:45Z johnjay: lots of capital letters
2019-03-19T18:33:44Z wasamasa: that's ancient lisp for you
2019-03-19T18:34:00Z johnjay: oh hai wasamasa
2019-03-19T18:34:14Z wasamasa: hence why I keep telling people who insist on writing lisp in allcaps that they're ancient dinosaurs
2019-03-19T18:34:38Z johnjay: í still haven't figured out why the sbcl prompt gives me ]]A^ instead of proper readline support
2019-03-19T18:34:43Z johnjay: how's that for the prehistoric
2019-03-19T18:34:55Z wasamasa: because it doesn't have any
2019-03-19T18:35:02Z wasamasa: you'll have to run it via rlwrap or emacs
2019-03-19T18:35:13Z wasamasa: same goes for lots of lisp implementations
2019-03-19T18:35:41Z johnjay: ah, the aforementioned curse of lisp no doubt
2019-03-19T18:35:46Z Zipheir: johnjay: If you were a proper graybeard you'd never even need to use backspace. :)
2019-03-19T18:35:49Z wasamasa: in fact, clisp linking to readline was the cause of a great debate between its maintainer and RMS
2019-03-19T18:35:55Z johnjay: Zipheir: !
2019-03-19T18:35:57Z wasamasa: which resulted in it switching to the GPL
2019-03-19T18:36:17Z wasamasa: so yeah, bloat and licensing may be a concern :>
2019-03-19T18:36:28Z johnjay: i'm just curious if zmacs did anything different from emacs
2019-03-19T18:36:30Z johnjay: other than the capitals
2019-03-19T18:36:46Z wasamasa: sure it does
2019-03-19T18:36:52Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Wow, they really switched licenses over readline?
2019-03-19T18:36:55Z wasamasa: read its manual and ideally, the lisp machine one as well
2019-03-19T18:37:08Z wasamasa: Zipheir: RMS insisted that linking to readline makes the whole thing GPL
2019-03-19T18:37:42Z Zipheir: I have nothing printable to say about GPL'd libraries...
2019-03-19T18:38:15Z wasamasa: hence why gcc and such have a linking exception that prevents it from turning every program compiled into a GPL'd one :D
2019-03-19T18:38:26Z johnjay: wasamasa: you mean this manual? the cadr emulator didn't provide a link
2019-03-19T18:38:27Z johnjay: https://hanshuebner.github.io/lmman/toc.html
2019-03-19T18:39:03Z siraben: wasamasa: they need an exception for that?
2019-03-19T18:39:08Z wasamasa: of course
2019-03-19T18:39:23Z wasamasa: same for GNU classpath, glibc and who knows what else
2019-03-19T18:39:52Z wasamasa: > This document is the reference manual for the Zetalisp language.
2019-03-19T18:39:53Z ivanshmakov: wasamasa: Not exactly; that a code from a GPL library is embedded into some program does not, unless an exception is granted, exempt one from requirements of GPL with regards to that program.
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2019-03-19T18:40:04Z siraben: Huh.
2019-03-19T18:42:53Z ivanshmakov: Which is to say, the resulting binary can have any number of licenses, so long as one of them is GPL /and/ none of the others contradict it. And the same (per GPL provisions) applies to the source.
2019-03-19T18:44:59Z johnjay: wasamasa: here's the main link to that - https://hanshuebner.github.io/lmman/title.xml
2019-03-19T18:45:07Z ivanshmakov: (Well, almost: you /can/ use a permissive license for [your] source.)
2019-03-19T18:45:08Z johnjay: By Stallman, Weinreb, and Moon
2019-03-19T18:45:21Z wasamasa: doesn't change anything about it being about zetalisp, not the lisp machine
2019-03-19T18:45:35Z johnjay: eh ok. the title says "Lisp machine manual
2019-03-19T18:45:37Z wasamasa: zmacs is ultimately just a piece of it
2019-03-19T18:45:58Z johnjay: älso my keys are sticky
2019-03-19T18:46:02Z wasamasa: > It describes how to program, but not for the most part how to operate the machine.
2019-03-19T18:52:12Z johnjay: i don't see anything else except different memos and stuff linked from the wiki page
2019-03-19T18:52:26Z johnjay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine#External_links
2019-03-19T18:52:44Z johnjay: Fascinating that of all the MIT hackers the only 2 that didn't join either Symbolics or LMI companies were Stallman and Minsky
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2019-03-19T18:55:37Z johnjay: hmm that cadr emulator doesn't like my screen somehow
2019-03-19T18:55:48Z johnjay: the window can't be resized and extends past the bottom of the monitor where i can't see it
2019-03-19T18:57:26Z Zipheir: Didn't Stallman end up working for one of them just to ensure that both companies' software had precisely the same features?
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2019-03-19T18:59:10Z Zipheir: Yes, according to Steven Levy. To the point where Symbolics considered Stallman's work for LMI 'theft of trade secrets'.
2019-03-19T19:05:43Z johnjay: it says Symbolics got most of the employees
2019-03-19T19:06:19Z johnjay: i understood it to be stallman was still in the AI lab
2019-03-19T19:06:30Z johnjay: but working to duplicate freely everything they did in the lab
2019-03-19T19:07:01Z johnjay: anyway from what i see the only things after CADR still around are expensive $1000 machines running OpenGenera
2019-03-19T19:07:11Z soegaard: Apropos Symbolics: they registered the oldest domain name: https://www.domainholdings.com/recent-sales/100-oldest-domain-names/
2019-03-19T19:07:11Z johnjay: so that essay might have a poitn
2019-03-19T19:07:37Z johnjay wonders if scheme could replicate the "glory of the lisp machine" (!)
2019-03-19T19:09:30Z Zipheir: It seems Symbolics had a bunch of their machines at the MIT lab and Stallman, since he was still "at" MIT, could poke around with them and duplicate their features for LMI, because screw Symbolics' proprietary crap.
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2019-03-19T20:23:29Z johnjay: it says LMI went bankrupt pretty quickly
2019-03-19T20:23:40Z johnjay: dunno how symbolics survived
2019-03-19T20:44:42Z duncanm: this is a cute post by a friend: https://medium.com/dartlang/making-dart-a-better-language-for-ui-f1ccaf9f546c
2019-03-19T20:44:56Z duncanm: it's basically an evolution of quasiquoting in lisp/scheme
2019-03-19T20:45:19Z duncanm: it's interesting that the lisp/schemers never added more additions past unquote-splicing
2019-03-19T20:45:32Z duncanm: unquote-conditional could have been interesting
2019-03-19T20:46:46Z gwatt: > C was designed for implementing command-line operating systems on the PDP-11. The fact that its notation scales not too badly to building graphical UIs on mobile devices is either a testament to Ritchie’s design taste, or our collective Stockholm Syndrome around C syntax.
2019-03-19T20:48:21Z civodul: duncanm: Guix has "gexps", which come with several types of unquoting :-)
2019-03-19T20:48:35Z civodul: i agree that unquote-conditional would be nice
2019-03-19T20:48:55Z civodul: often we write things like ,@(if something (list one-thing) '())
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2019-03-19T20:53:52Z gwatt: To be fair, it's pretty trivial to write a macro that, when combined with ",@", will do what you want
2019-03-19T20:54:25Z duncanm: gwatt: but that requires a special null valid that the constructor understands
2019-03-19T20:54:34Z duncanm: null literal that's valid
2019-03-19T20:54:35Z duncanm: i mean
2019-03-19T20:55:02Z duncanm: ha
2019-03-19T20:55:07Z duncanm: so I use Kawa scheme
2019-03-19T20:55:10Z gwatt: duncanm: I mean the macro will expand to (list foo) or '()
2019-03-19T20:55:39Z duncanm: oh
2019-03-19T20:55:44Z duncanm: #|kawa:2|# (list #!void 1 2 3)
2019-03-19T20:55:44Z duncanm: ( 1 2 3)
2019-03-19T20:57:02Z gwatt: interesting
2019-03-19T20:57:18Z duncanm: this is interesting
2019-03-19T20:57:24Z gwatt: https://pastebin.com/KESFTn3P that's what I meant
2019-03-19T20:57:35Z duncanm: `(,@(list))  === '()
2019-03-19T20:57:41Z duncanm: gwatt: right
2019-03-19T20:58:36Z duncanm: it might be fun to come up with reader syntax for this stuff
2019-03-19T20:58:41Z duncanm: maybe ,?
2019-03-19T20:58:56Z gwatt: hah, I actually named the macro "?" at first
2019-03-19T21:00:52Z duncanm: I'm not familiar with guix
2019-03-19T21:03:47Z johnjay: duncanm: get edumacated
2019-03-19T21:03:49Z johnjay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOolAnW9a6Y&feature=youtu.be
2019-03-19T21:04:06Z johnjay: warning: i haven't actually used guix at all either
2019-03-19T21:22:57Z Zipheir: gwatt: Nice quote.
2019-03-19T21:26:47Z Zipheir: Although the focus on syntax is wrong: It's C's fundamental lack of abstraction that make it painful for, say, GUI programming.
2019-03-19T21:34:22Z johnjay: Zipheir: what would you consider a better language for GUI programming?
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2019-03-19T21:36:34Z amz3: johnjay: scheme :)
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2019-03-19T21:39:53Z johnjay: that's more like a family of languages at this point, there's so many
2019-03-19T21:39:56Z johnjay: but i guess
2019-03-19T21:40:39Z amz3: at least in the browser, I like to code using scheme (biwa but chibi is nicer)
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2019-03-19T21:41:52Z Zipheir: The problem is the insane world that is modern GUI programming.
2019-03-19T21:42:23Z amz3: why is that?
2019-03-19T21:42:51Z Zipheir: I honestly doubt any language is going make the situation much better until that particular Gordian know is cut.
2019-03-19T21:44:35Z Zipheir: amz3: People want to render every pixel of their app's GUI. They want to set their own fonts, they want direct video/audio device access, etc. etc.
2019-03-19T21:44:46Z Zipheir: amz3: So it's necessarily a huge programming problem.
2019-03-19T21:48:30Z Zipheir: In sum, there's a reason hackers keep using n-fscking-curses for GUIs.
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2019-03-19T23:00:55Z razzy: what is good text based gui?
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2019-03-19T23:10:13Z pjb: razzy: genera, oberon, MPW.
2019-03-19T23:12:03Z daviid: razzy: ncurses or newt
2019-03-19T23:13:22Z daviid: razzy: fwiw, guile has a binding to ncurses, see guile-ncurses
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2019-03-19T23:49:34Z gwatt: tcl/tk is interesting for GUI development, as is rebol.
2019-03-19T23:50:49Z gwatt: For even crazier examples, templeos is always a source of lovely WTFs.
2019-03-19T23:51:50Z Zipheir: Oh god, TempleOS
2019-03-19T23:57:38Z Zipheir: (speaking of which, RIP Terry Davis)
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2019-03-19T23:58:59Z gwatt: Yeah
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2019-03-20T04:50:29Z siraben: Zipheir:  and to think that he wrote the entire thing himself, including the Holy C language, compiler and so on!
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2019-03-20T11:07:34Z jcowan: termbox looks like a good minimalistic TUI, only ~ 20 functions and a very simple model
2019-03-20T11:07:50Z jcowan: assumes an ANSI terminal, many existing bindings
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2019-03-20T11:26:05Z amz3: +1 termbox
2019-03-20T11:30:45Z jcowan: amz3: have you used it?
2019-03-20T11:30:57Z amz3: yes, I use it
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2019-03-20T11:37:45Z amz3: here https://github.com/a-guile-mind/azul.scm/
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2019-03-20T12:18:58Z amz3 needs an http client
2019-03-20T12:19:13Z amz3 goes to chibi snarfing some stuff
2019-03-20T12:19:31Z amz3: s/snarfing/to snarf/
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2019-03-20T12:21:10Z TCZ: o.O
2019-03-20T12:21:36Z amz3: TCZ: what?
2019-03-20T12:21:53Z TCZ: nothing, everything ok, have a nice day
2019-03-20T12:22:42Z amz3: sorry, I am grumpy today
2019-03-20T12:25:01Z TCZ: np
2019-03-20T12:25:06Z TCZ:  :d
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2019-03-20T14:18:59Z hil_: hi everyone. Beginner here. I'm currently learning using chez scheme and there doesn't seem to be a reduce function. Am i missing something? Or is it one of those things i'll need to implement?
2019-03-20T14:21:27Z ecraven: hil_: chez brings all of the r6rs libraries. if you need more, a few places have many srfis for chez. https://akkuscm.org/ is probably a good place to start
2019-03-20T14:21:38Z ecraven: maybe ask in #chez too ;)
2019-03-20T14:24:49Z hil_: ecraven, right! Didn't know there was #chez as well. Thanks for the info!
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2019-03-20T15:07:30Z pjb: hil_: reduce is called foldl or foldr in scheme IIRC.
2019-03-20T15:09:09Z pjb: But indeed, it's not in r7rs, you will have to find it in a srfi.
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2019-03-20T15:57:51Z ecraven: should be in r6rs somewhere
2019-03-20T16:01:23Z weinholt: jcowan, https://gitlab.com/weinholt/text-mode  a bit like termbox, but uses terminfo (no ffi)
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2019-03-20T16:09:12Z weinholt: well... ffi for termios. but that's just for raw mode and terminal size
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2019-03-20T17:02:08Z jcowan: Nice.  You could of course simply run stty, which is probably more portable than a specific FFI.
2019-03-20T17:03:10Z jcowan: Reduce is not quite fold; fold has an explicit nil, whereas for reduce the nil depends on the specific function.  In addition, reduce can be done in parallel because the function is assumed to be associative, whereas fold is inherently ordered.
2019-03-20T17:04:36Z jcowan: (Hmm, I see that SRFI 1's reduce *is* fold, almost, so the above doesn't apply.)
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2019-03-20T17:09:36Z pjb: jcowan: of course, you can always write your own, with your own assumptions (pre-conditions).  If you need an associative reduce, a parallel reduce, whatever.
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2019-03-20T17:24:01Z johnjay: which scheme is the fastest on x86/x86_64?
2019-03-20T17:26:26Z gwatt: johnjay: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
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2019-03-20T17:28:10Z johnjay: honestly i wasn't expect chez scheme to be at the top
2019-03-20T17:29:23Z ecraven: as the benchmarks say, it's complicated, it all depends
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2019-03-20T17:30:01Z gwatt: The situation might be different if stalin (or other schemes) actually completed all of the tests
2019-03-20T17:31:32Z johnjay: is stalin unable to do the test or is the test just timing out?
2019-03-20T17:32:13Z ecraven: stalin is by far not r7rs
2019-03-20T17:32:22Z soegaard: https://github.com/barak/stalin
2019-03-20T17:32:24Z ecraven: no-one has taken the time to make it so (no idea if that can even be done)
2019-03-20T17:32:40Z ecraven: even then, I suspect it wouldn't be much faster then chez, but in the same ballpark
2019-03-20T17:32:56Z ecraven: and if you take actual compile-time into account... chez wins hands down ;)
2019-03-20T17:33:16Z johnjay: so that first graph is showing that stalin had a lot of first place finishes
2019-03-20T17:33:22Z johnjay: but several of the tests weren't completed?
2019-03-20T17:34:09Z soegaard: Be prepared to be patient when you compile...
2019-03-20T17:34:17Z johnjay: racket is very high, while chicken, guile, and kawa were very low
2019-03-20T17:34:24Z soegaard: The benchmark measures run times - not compile times :-)
2019-03-20T17:34:48Z johnjay: i wonder why some schemes perform better than others
2019-03-20T17:39:22Z gwatt: They've probably had much more work put into making them fast
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2019-03-20T17:53:48Z johnjay: a very direct answer
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2019-03-20T18:33:09Z rudybot: la la la
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2019-03-20T18:33:29Z soegaard: rudybot: tell a joke
2019-03-20T18:33:29Z amz3: rudybot: lo lo lo
2019-03-20T18:33:34Z rudybot: soegaard: I bet you're thinking of the so-called "POSIX-compliance", which as far as I can tell, is nothing but a cynical joke
2019-03-20T18:33:34Z rudybot: amz3: my father was writing out his transaction history...in LO Writer. And asked me to help.
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2019-03-20T18:34:01Z soegaard: rudybot: help
2019-03-20T18:34:02Z rudybot: soegaard: bug <more> ..., fom <more> ..., hopeless <more> ..., falsy <more> ..., bad-eval <more> ..., later "tell" <recipient> <message> ..., help [<what>], version, quote, source, url, g <query> ..., sentientp, seen <nick> <more> ..., where's <nick> <more> ..., uptime, t8 <from> <to> <text> ..., snotback, botsnack, init [<lang>], eval <expr> ..., give <to> <expr> ..., apropos <str> ..., desc <id>, doc <id>, swat <victim>
2019-03-20T18:34:16Z soegaard: rudybot: seen rudybot
2019-03-20T18:34:17Z rudybot: soegaard: rudybot_ was seen quitting three years ago, saying "*.net *.split", and then rudybot was seen quitting three years ago, saying "*.net *.split"
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2019-03-20T18:34:48Z amz3: rudybot: help swat
2019-03-20T18:34:48Z rudybot: amz3: swat <victim>: smite 'em
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2019-03-20T18:34:57Z amz3: rudybot: swat amoe
2019-03-20T18:34:57Z rudybot waves his Palm of Slapping® threateningly at amoe
2019-03-20T18:35:04Z amz3: oops!
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2019-03-20T18:35:29Z soegaard: rudybot: swat amz3
2019-03-20T18:35:30Z rudybot waves his Palm of Slapping® threateningly at amz3
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2019-03-20T18:35:44Z soegaard: Only one phrase?
2019-03-20T18:36:52Z amz3: too bad rudybot you miss a bit of natural language vocabulary
2019-03-20T18:36:57Z amz3: rudybot: swat soegaard
2019-03-20T18:36:57Z rudybot waves his Palm of Slapping® threateningly at soegaard
2019-03-20T18:37:22Z amz3: rudybot: what is culturia?
2019-03-20T18:37:29Z rudybot: amz3: what is culturia
2019-03-20T18:41:33Z Zipheir: rudybot: sentientp
2019-03-20T18:41:33Z rudybot: Zipheir: Any day now
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2019-03-20T20:47:51Z amz3: rudybot: you don't have much natural language vocabulary
2019-03-20T20:48:01Z rudybot: amz3: If I may be permitted to move the goalposts just a tad: Fie, it's just a chatbot, using parlor tricks like every other chatbot. The ability to answer natural language queries--even with a limited vocabulary at first--is a much more interesting test.
2019-03-20T20:48:39Z amz3: rudybot: don't bring you science around, talk real please :)
2019-03-20T20:48:40Z rudybot: amz3: pardon the source http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/w5u6t/the_heatdeath_of_the_universe_need_not_bring_an/
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2019-03-21T11:14:39Z amz3: seems like chez maintainer are still not willing to actively support r7rs :/
2019-03-21T11:14:48Z amz3: I hope this stance change once more of r7rs is out
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2019-03-21T13:25:29Z lisbeths: I've converted from common lisp to scheme recently.
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2019-03-21T13:31:18Z lisbeths: One of the things I really appreciate in scheme is that defining functions is done with lambdas explicitly. To me that speaks of right-headed design.
2019-03-21T13:42:03Z erkin: That's the #1 thing that doesn't sit right with me about CL.
2019-03-21T13:42:12Z erkin: Lisp-2 feels so unlispy
2019-03-21T13:42:35Z lisbeths: You can do it that way in common lisp it's just not the default.
2019-03-21T13:42:59Z lisbeths: I have been thinking about which scheme compiler I want to use
2019-03-21T13:43:24Z lisbeths: I prefer very small embedded compilers or even interpreters
2019-03-21T13:43:52Z lisbeths: I also prefer the bsd style license
2019-03-21T13:44:44Z erkin: TinyScheme is a pretty good contender for "embedded tiny Scheme interpreter with BSD licence".
2019-03-21T13:45:13Z lisbeths: About how many megabytes is tinyscheme?
2019-03-21T13:45:15Z lisbeths: filesize
2019-03-21T13:46:02Z erkin: I'd need to install it to determine that.
2019-03-21T13:46:22Z erkin: But sure, I'll do that. It takes seconds to build it anyway.
2019-03-21T13:46:32Z erkin: 0,36 MiB.
2019-03-21T13:46:37Z lisbeths: I am doing that at the moment though I am unsure which files to check for filesize. I know in some language the compiler and the standard library are separated
2019-03-21T13:47:05Z erkin: pacman reports 367 KiB installed on the filesystem.
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2019-03-21T13:47:12Z erkin: It's made up of two C files.
2019-03-21T13:47:17Z lisbeths: That's pretty good.
2019-03-21T13:47:38Z lisbeths: I bet I could make a smaller interpreter if I wrote it in forth
2019-03-21T13:47:56Z erkin: Of course. Much smaller if you don't conform to standards.
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2019-03-21T13:48:21Z erkin: TinyScheme is semi-compliant with R5RS.
2019-03-21T13:48:37Z lisbeths: The main thing I care about is that it's relatively portable, that it is small, and that it has full syntactic macros
2019-03-21T13:49:19Z erkin: Oh
2019-03-21T13:49:23Z erkin: Macros are much harder to implement.
2019-03-21T13:49:36Z erkin: As such, TinyScheme has no hygienic macros, only the basic stuff.
2019-03-21T13:50:32Z erkin: You might be interested in Chibi Scheme instead.
2019-03-21T13:51:39Z lisbeths: stuck downloading a huge ms-mono update
2019-03-21T13:52:21Z erkin: It's a portable, R7RS compliant embeddable Scheme (also BSD licensed), but nowhere near as small as TinyScheme.
2019-03-21T13:52:32Z erkin: Takes up a few megabytes.
2019-03-21T13:52:55Z lisbeths: Anything around 50 megabytes or lower is probably ok.
2019-03-21T13:53:10Z lisbeths: I know people say this alot but currently I am considering a scheme emacs
2019-03-21T13:53:33Z erkin: Oh, every Scheme implementation (not counting Racket) is below 50 MiB.
2019-03-21T13:53:48Z erkin: Even Guile is 44 MiB (once again, according to pacman).
2019-03-21T13:54:15Z lisbeths: Well then maybe I should just go for: the fastest scheme that has full syntatic macroes, hygenic, all the knobs and whistles, and good linux and freebsd support
2019-03-21T13:54:40Z lisbeths: prolly scheme7
2019-03-21T13:55:08Z erkin: Here's a benchmark of R7RS-compliant Schemes https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2019-03-21T13:55:09Z deuill: Chicken is very good and mature
2019-03-21T13:55:31Z lisbeths: If I write an application in schicken scheme can I use whatever license I want?
2019-03-21T13:55:57Z erkin: Are there even GPL'd Lisp runtimes?
2019-03-21T13:55:59Z deuill: It's BSD-licensed, so yeah?
2019-03-21T13:56:05Z erkin: Aren't they all LGPL or lesser?
2019-03-21T13:56:23Z deuill: I rank stuff by how easy it is to cross-compile them into weird platforms, and compiling Chicken was very simple on a QNX-backed Blackberry phone.
2019-03-21T13:56:43Z erkin: CHICKEN has a decent ecosystem too, what with third-party packages and such.
2019-03-21T13:57:01Z deuill: Conversely Guile was much harder, owing to its use of various third-party libraries which are not as portable.
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2019-03-21T14:17:06Z lisbeths: How easy is it to use something like chicken scheme as system shell?
2019-03-21T14:17:24Z amz3: lisbeths: what is a scheme emacs?
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2019-03-21T14:17:48Z lisbeths: Well I am essentually considering constructing a tmux from within scheme
2019-03-21T14:18:01Z lisbeths: only instead of being a tmux for shells it would be a tmux for scheme repls
2019-03-21T14:18:21Z amz3: ok
2019-03-21T14:35:07Z willghatch[m]: lisbeths: If you want a scheme system shell you might check out Rash in Racket (my project, http://rash-lang.org).
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2019-03-21T14:43:02Z erkin: There already is a Guile Emacs.
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2019-03-21T14:44:02Z erkin: There used to be scsh, which wasn't updated since 2013.
2019-03-21T14:44:21Z erkin: willghatch[m]: I tried rash a while ago. It's pretty interesting.
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2019-03-21T14:53:27Z erkin: Lush is dead as well.
2019-03-21T14:53:41Z erkin: And so is Clash.
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2019-03-21T14:54:12Z erkin: I'll try to use rash more regularly.
2019-03-21T14:54:48Z willghatch[m]: erkin: I hope Rash fares better.  Though there are a lot of improvements I need to make.
2019-03-21T14:55:21Z willghatch[m]: erkin: If you have any feedback I'm interested to hear it.
2019-03-21T14:56:22Z erkin: It might be the only extant (general-purpose) Lisp shell out there, so I have high hopes for it. :-)
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2019-03-21T14:59:52Z erkin: willghatch[m]: I think it needs tab-completion first and foremost.
2019-03-21T15:00:08Z erkin: It seems to complete filenames but not shell commands or Racket expressions.
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2019-03-21T15:07:41Z willghatch[m]: erkin: Yeah.  Completion is probably the single biggest thing lacking.  Unfortunately I need to replace the line editor to do that well.  I'm currently working on another language project that needs a different line editor than what Racket provides currently, so I plan on writing a new line editing library for both of them in the near-ish future.
2019-03-21T15:08:09Z erkin: Neat!
2019-03-21T15:09:02Z erkin: By the way, Oil makes a good case about how it's too much effort to port completion scripts to other shells, so it just parses bash completion scripts.
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2019-03-21T15:53:05Z willghatch[m]: erkin: Yeah, serious completion will be difficult.  There's been some discussion between some alternative shell people (including the Oil guy, the Elvish guy, myself, and some others) about completion and ways to share it.  So I'm hopeful that we can have some re-usable completion infrastructure at some point.
2019-03-21T15:55:01Z erkin: Brilliant.
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2019-03-21T15:56:15Z erkin: I stumbled upon (help)
2019-03-21T15:57:02Z johnjay: willghatch[m]: that sounds cool but the curse of lisp reins supreme
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2019-03-21T15:59:58Z erkin: Someone needs to carry the flag of Lisp shell.
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2019-03-21T16:11:03Z lisbeths`: Is there something in scheme similar to sqlite for databasing files?
2019-03-21T16:11:31Z lisbeths`: erkin: lisp shell?
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2019-03-21T16:14:00Z erkin: A shell that is Lisp!
2019-03-21T16:14:12Z erkin: I mean, every REPL can be a shell if you try hard enough. ;-)
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2019-03-21T16:16:03Z lisbeths`: 6 and a half years ago I took my first c++ class having only learned html previously. After hating c++ I went onto learn bash which was amazingly hackerish yet more amazingly terrible. I felt like someone who was a programming langauge abuse victem. So I became very comitted to replacing unix shell with a better shell that was not hellish, and one of my requirements (although the bash people told me it was impossible) was for the she
2019-03-21T16:16:03Z lisbeths`: to be able to be a kernel to an operating system
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2019-03-21T16:16:39Z lisbeths`: After two weeks in the #bash irc channel they threatened to ban me if I did not learn haskell. I had kept trying to implement things like anonymous functions.
2019-03-21T16:16:50Z erkin: There's always Movitz!
2019-03-21T16:17:00Z erkin: ...which is also dead.
2019-03-21T16:17:01Z lisbeths`: So I stayed in haskell for 2 years and eventually started trying to rewrite haskell in s expressions
2019-03-21T16:17:44Z DKordic: lisbeths`: Forth?
2019-03-21T16:17:47Z lisbeths`: So then they were telling me "that's how a lisp programmer programs." So I started researching lisp. On that very same week they told me it looked like lisp I had been trying out emacs because I needed a terminal multiplexer and I found out emcas had a terminal multiplexer and vim did not, and I had previously been learning vim
2019-03-21T16:18:04Z LeoNerd: vim has :terminal now, mostly because neovim added it
2019-03-21T16:18:16Z lisbeths`: SO emacs was kind of lik emade for someone with the same kind of autism as me
2019-03-21T16:19:13Z lisbeths`: In my mind the shell is a subset of what emacs does. I think that in unix terminals a terminal should open up something like emacs and not something like a REPL.
2019-03-21T16:19:17Z lisbeths`: by default
2019-03-21T16:19:36Z lisbeths`: So yeah my entire life has been about replacing unix shell and has lead me to scheme
2019-03-21T16:20:15Z lisbeths`: DKordic: forth is a lisp-like tha thas a 8-16 kb kernel and a 40-300 kilobyte standard library which comes with a shell
2019-03-21T16:20:51Z LeoNerd: It's a shame modern UNIX systems and shells don't behave somewhat more like the early 80s 8-bit home computers...
2019-03-21T16:20:58Z LeoNerd: All those BASIC-powered machines...
2019-03-21T16:21:13Z DKordic: lisbeths`: I agree.
2019-03-21T16:21:16Z lisbeths`: Forth was alot better than basic. It ran 4 to 5 times faster and had much better memory usage and was much more like lisp
2019-03-21T16:21:55Z lisbeths`: The idea is lets say you are given the choice to code something in php or javascript. A lisper will choose javascript because it is the closest thing like lisp that was an option. If you are on an embedded computer and you want something thats alot like lisp choose forth
2019-03-21T16:22:06Z lisbeths`: The way forth works is alot like mutable currying
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2019-03-21T16:23:38Z lisbeths`: You write a syntactic macro that changes parsing so that every symbol thereafter even if it is a paren is parsed as that symbol with two parens around it. Each function when called accepts a linked list as it's argument and as it's output it returns that linked list to the next function. Calling the function quit-forth ends the non-lisp style parsing and one returns to the scheme prompt.
2019-03-21T16:24:08Z lisbeths`: If the symbol is an atom it takes it's argument list and ads its symbol to that list and then returns that list.
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2019-03-21T16:26:50Z deuill: Also Thinking Forth is an excellent book on both Forth and programming in general: https://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/Leo-Brodie/thinking-forth.pdf
2019-03-21T16:27:05Z lisbeths`: I think though that forth might be better as a unix shell
2019-03-21T16:27:16Z lisbeths`: I mean scheme I am a bit dyslexic. Scheme would be better for unix shell than forth
2019-03-21T16:31:31Z lisbeths`: The way I invision a machine is a kernel that is something like scheme from th every bottom to the top
2019-03-21T16:31:42Z lisbeths`: The shell would run inside the kernel and include a multiplexer
2019-03-21T16:32:44Z lisbeths`: The applications and programming languages would all be written in the shell
2019-03-21T16:33:15Z lisbeths`: I categorize between languages that either are a shell or or not. The ones that are not I scoff at them.
2019-03-21T16:35:21Z TCZ: o.O
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2019-03-21T16:37:06Z lisbeths`: If one used an processor that parses s-expressions than the shell can actually be both the kernel and the hardware. So all programming languages and applications would be written in the assembly language
2019-03-21T16:37:44Z lisbeths`: And of course if the processor is an FPGA then the processor itself is mutable. So it would be a system that is totally mutable from the transistor level all the way to the top
2019-03-21T16:38:13Z DKordic: ``If.  ''
2019-03-21T16:38:45Z lisbeths`: Are you stating it is not possible to use an fpga to write an s expression interpreter with full syntactic macros?
2019-03-21T16:39:32Z DKordic: FWIW I am still not convinced that FPGAs are good for anything.
2019-03-21T16:41:18Z wasamasa: prototyping processors
2019-03-21T16:41:52Z johnjay: didn't lisp machines get out paced in the 80s?
2019-03-21T16:42:04Z johnjay: i'm fairly sure that's why LMI went bankrupt
2019-03-21T16:42:37Z lisbeths`: The problem with making a lisp system to day is to make unix a lisp which is very difficult
2019-03-21T16:42:41Z lisbeths`: also drivers
2019-03-21T16:42:58Z lisbeths`: so the idea I like to think of is to make pid 1 scheme
2019-03-21T16:43:09Z DKordic: IMHO there was just not enough effort.  Companies come and go.
2019-03-21T16:43:39Z lisbeths`: I have faith in this one project called aborigonal linux
2019-03-21T16:44:18Z wasamasa: gnu shepherd
2019-03-21T16:44:23Z lisbeths`: It's a custom version of linux from scratch tha tis the current smallest self reproducable linux that runs on intel and arm. So it contains the gnu coreutils, a compiler, and the kernel
2019-03-21T16:44:45Z lisbeths`: The gnu coreutils are planned to be in a busybox clone called toybox which is like busybox but with bsd license
2019-03-21T16:45:29Z lisbeths`: aboriginal linux dev has been trying to make alot of changes that simplify linux itself
2019-03-21T16:45:55Z wasamasa: it's also dead: https://landley.net/aboriginal/news.html
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2019-03-21T16:46:35Z lisbeths`: The hurdle aborigonal linux is on is that he is trying to replace busybox with toolbox
2019-03-21T16:46:49Z lisbeths`: This increases the complexity by an exponential figure until he does it
2019-03-21T16:50:00Z johnjay: aboriginal linux - the original penguin that came to this land t housands of years ago
2019-03-21T16:51:44Z gnomon: wasamasa, well, "dead" - replaced by `mkroot`, at least
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2019-03-21T16:53:28Z wasamasa: I also fail to see what this project has to do with whatever scheme fantasies lisbeths` entertains
2019-03-21T16:53:45Z wasamasa: if you want reproducible projects, there's a few that are actually alive
2019-03-21T16:53:48Z TCZ: do you agree that programming courses focus only on small parts of language but ignore big picture. i can learn 9999 little things but still they dont show me big example how things interact
2019-03-21T16:54:33Z moldybits: lisbeths`: possibly of intellectual interest to you: http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/tunes.html
2019-03-21T16:55:16Z moldybits: TCZ: what kinds of things interacting?
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2019-03-21T16:55:29Z wasamasa: https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/
2019-03-21T16:56:04Z wasamasa: which is more scheme-related in any case and not concerned with pettiness such as gplv2 vs v3 discussion
2019-03-21T16:57:15Z TCZ: moldybits for example if i know some oop and i want to learn about elixir, tutorial shows me 9000 little things but the most important thing is how class looks like and how i use it
2019-03-21T16:57:33Z TCZ: and later i find out elixir doesnt have classes
2019-03-21T16:57:59Z TCZ: so how i program in this language, noone cares
2019-03-21T16:58:00Z wasamasa: oop isn't about classes
2019-03-21T16:58:24Z johnjay: it's about inheritance, encapsulation, and polymorphism
2019-03-21T16:58:24Z TCZ: ...
2019-03-21T16:58:33Z johnjay: at least that's what i was taught in school.
2019-03-21T16:58:36Z wasamasa: case in point: JS, self, all kinds of lisp systems using generic functions
2019-03-21T16:58:49Z johnjay doesn't actually use OOP in daily work at all
2019-03-21T16:59:54Z TCZ: of its is wasamasa maybe you read wrong tutorials
2019-03-21T17:00:03Z TCZ: -_-
2019-03-21T17:00:17Z wasamasa: sure, go pretend JS doesn't exist
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2019-03-21T17:00:29Z TCZ: https://elixir-lang.org/getting-started/introduction.html
2019-03-21T17:00:34Z TCZ: and what is this crap
2019-03-21T17:00:42Z TCZ: 23 chapters
2019-03-21T17:00:51Z wasamasa: also, you might have skipped this by learning that elixir is based on erlang which is a functional programming language
2019-03-21T17:01:06Z moldybits: TCZ: i don't know if this is what you're saying but i find most introductory material in general (not just programming) requires a lot of wading or skimming before i get my questions answered.
2019-03-21T17:02:30Z TCZ: wasamasa and functional programming courses also seem to completely ignore how to organise programs
2019-03-21T17:02:42Z TCZ: only this is function this is cond
2019-03-21T17:02:47Z wasamasa: sure, that may be
2019-03-21T17:02:53Z TCZ: and what next just paste 1000 functions
2019-03-21T17:03:01Z TCZ: and thats my supercool readable program
2019-03-21T17:03:02Z wasamasa: I'm just pointing out your expectations may be a tad misdirected
2019-03-21T17:03:06Z TCZ: hm
2019-03-21T17:03:27Z TCZ: wasamasa but look someone wants to learn this elixir and what he learn after 23 chapters
2019-03-21T17:03:38Z TCZ: nothing only how to do same things from other languages
2019-03-21T17:03:47Z TCZ: eh
2019-03-21T17:03:47Z wasamasa: I've found only one scheme programming book so far I can actually recommend to people and it assumes you're using an IBM PC with CGA graphics
2019-03-21T17:04:36Z wasamasa: it comes with small projects, explains common workflows, how to debug things, etc.
2019-03-21T17:06:18Z TCZ: i dont have ibm pc...
2019-03-21T17:06:32Z wasamasa: you don't have brain cells either
2019-03-21T17:06:37Z TCZ: :x
2019-03-21T17:06:42Z TCZ: i dont feel offended
2019-03-21T17:06:52Z wasamasa: I'd expect people in here to translate or skip these parts on their own
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2019-03-21T17:10:08Z wasamasa: anyway, my point is that these kinds of books that actually aim teaching you what matters are rare
2019-03-21T17:10:20Z TCZ: thanks
2019-03-21T17:10:50Z wasamasa: if they aren't up to date, well, you better learn to deal with that
2019-03-21T17:11:01Z wasamasa: should be easier than dealing with a less than helpful book :P
2019-03-21T17:12:06Z moldybits: it'd be nice to have a list of medium-sized well-written programs for beginners to read.
2019-03-21T17:12:28Z TCZ: moldybits yes thank you too
2019-03-21T17:12:43Z TCZ: with all story whats hapening comments etc
2019-03-21T17:13:20Z wasamasa: maybe the real problem is that teaching people is hard: http://stevelosh.com/blog/2013/09/teach-dont-tell/
2019-03-21T17:13:34Z TCZ: or maybe problem is that authors are afraid
2019-03-21T17:13:42Z TCZ: that their solution will not be the  best
2019-03-21T17:13:49Z TCZ: or considered bad style et
2019-03-21T17:13:50Z TCZ: etc
2019-03-21T17:14:27Z wasamasa: if that were true, there wouldn't be a zillion java and C++ books on the market
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2019-03-21T17:14:39Z johnjay: teaching people is hard
2019-03-21T17:14:49Z johnjay: as a people who has tried to learn from being taught, I believe that
2019-03-21T17:15:40Z johnjay: i'm sure this has been brought up before
2019-03-21T17:15:50Z johnjay: but why not have a fixed teaching environment like racket
2019-03-21T17:16:12Z johnjay: or like a virtual machine with X registers and Y memory and Z graphics and then everybody writes their tutorial for that and select the best one?
2019-03-21T17:16:26Z wasamasa: welcome to every racket/x86 assembly book
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2019-03-21T17:25:47Z moldybits: johnjay: what problem would that solve?
2019-03-21T17:26:17Z moldybits: also, what was your experience being taught?
2019-03-21T17:26:47Z johnjay: moldybits: the more people you have writing tutorials the easier it will be to find the best one
2019-03-21T17:26:55Z johnjay: at least that's what i was thinking
2019-03-21T17:27:13Z johnjay: 99.99% will be bad but then that 0.01% will be good.
2019-03-21T17:29:37Z amz3: rudybot: learning is hard, let's go shopping!
2019-03-21T17:29:43Z rudybot: amz3: learning is difficult, let's go shopping
2019-03-21T17:30:03Z moldybits: i wish it was more interactive.
2019-03-21T17:30:16Z amz3: moldybits: what would be more interactive?
2019-03-21T17:32:38Z moldybits: i'm not sure. i'm going with a vague feeling here. i think i prefer to jump into something and ask questions on irc, while using tutorials as some kind of bed-time reading.
2019-03-21T17:32:54Z amz3: programming is already interactive, but learning programming is a slow process, and depending on the task you might "loose" time just to figure the correct question. Case in point, last week I had a problem that I did not even knew how to state the problem. It took me one week to figure a more or less correct "problem statment". Then I asked the question everywhere on the internet to find the answer.
2019-03-21T17:33:44Z lisbeths`: how/join ##math
2019-03-21T17:35:03Z amz3: what ever learning material you use, it requires "study". That is you skim over it, to try to solve the problems yourself, figure the wrong path and the correct path and the best path. It's not just "fill-in-the-blank" kind of job even if they are many kind of such jobs
2019-03-21T17:35:20Z amz3: lisbeths`: ?
2019-03-21T17:35:56Z amz3: lisbeths`: yes it was a math problem https://math.stackexchange.com/a/3146674/23663
2019-03-21T17:36:37Z LeoNerd: Does Scheme (i.e. r7rs or something else nicely standard) have an equivalent of the async/await syntax that a bunch of languages are adding / have added, for handling promisey/futurey-like values?
2019-03-21T17:36:54Z amz3: LeoNerd: guile has fibers
2019-03-21T17:37:29Z LeoNerd: I'm trying to work out what the proper semantics of async/await combined with `local` in Perl ought to be. So far the languages I've used for inspiration have been Python3, ES6 and C#5, which all have something like async/await. But none of them have anything like perl's `local`.
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2019-03-21T17:37:43Z LeoNerd: local is quite similar to Scheme's `fluid-let`, so I wondered if there was precedent I could steal here instead
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2019-03-21T17:38:35Z amz3: LeoNerd: link?
2019-03-21T17:38:57Z LeoNerd: local is basically just "temporarily assign a new value to this variable, with restore to the old value on scope exit", the point being it's a nicer way to do  my $old_thing = $thing; ...  $thing = $old_thing;  because it cleanly handles exceptions and other forms of scope exit
2019-03-21T17:39:08Z LeoNerd: So it's quite similar to what I believe `fluid-let` does in Scheme
2019-03-21T17:39:30Z amz3: LeoNerd: how is it related to async/await?
2019-03-21T17:40:00Z LeoNerd: It's related to async/await because it raises questions of what the value of a `local`y modified variable ought to be after an await expression has suspended and resumed again
2019-03-21T17:40:18Z LeoNerd: https://rt.cpan.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=122793  is my perl bug/thoughts about the subject
2019-03-21T17:41:49Z amz3: LeoNerd: perl is dynamically scoped?
2019-03-21T17:41:54Z LeoNerd: If inside an async function you `local`y modify a variable from an outer scope (e.g. a global), then await, it seems fairly clear that while the async function is suspended the old value for that variable ought to be restored, and then the new value put back in place again when you resume
2019-03-21T17:42:33Z LeoNerd: amz3: Well.. now this is the core of the problem. Until you add `async/await` or similar ability to do continuations and coroutines, the question of "dynamic" scope doesn't really come in, as such, because dynamic scope = temporal scope.
2019-03-21T17:43:06Z LeoNerd: Without async/await, a `local` has limited effects in terms of time.. It will be in place until some point that the scope exits, and then it gets restored with the old value back in place. End of story.
2019-03-21T17:43:53Z LeoNerd: But once you add add async/await (or other continuations), you have the ability to come back at a later time; that suddenly your single dynamic scope may have several disjoint temporal components to it. E.g. think similar to the enter/exit procedures of a `dynamic-wind` combined with `call/cc`
2019-03-21T17:44:27Z LeoNerd: Because that continuation exists as a real value, you can enter/exit the dynamically-controlled block multiple times. The same question suddenly turns up with what the semantics of `local` ought to mean, which previously weren't questions that could be asked
2019-03-21T17:46:09Z LeoNerd: But since Scheme has always had these abilities, I thought I might try to steal some inspiration from how it has chosen to answer these questions
2019-03-21T17:46:32Z amz3: sorry, I am not into dynamic-wind and stuff. If you have questions about the particular implementation of guile-fibers "imperative" async or CPython implementation, I may help. Otherwise: good luck.
2019-03-21T17:47:50Z lisbeths`: THe guy thinks the starting point would be hurd. I disagree
2019-03-21T17:47:57Z lisbeths`: the tunes guy
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2019-03-21T17:49:55Z rain1: 'local' sounds like rackets parametrize
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2019-03-21T17:51:36Z moldybits: lisbeths`: that was written in 1999. the tunes project is long since defunct. (and that's about all i know about it. i was just reminded of it when you were talking)
2019-03-21T17:52:27Z lisbeths`: It's just not logisticlly feasible to run the kernel in scheme
2019-03-21T17:53:45Z lisbeths`: For example in order to make freebsd more portable I think a linux kernel can boot and pid 1 can launch a virtual machine that takes up all of the remaining memory and runs freebsd
2019-03-21T17:54:43Z lisbeths`: I consider all algorithms to be machines, that can be encoded as hardware. And so I consider all pieces of software a software target.
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2019-03-21T17:55:43Z LeoNerd: rain1: Sortof. Really it's mostly just a neatening of the idea of  saved = LVALUE; LVALUE = new;  and arranging for  LVALUE = saved  reliably at scope exit
2019-03-21T17:56:41Z LeoNerd: It can be applied to any lvalue, so not just plain variables but things like members of aggregate data structures. E.g. a common thing might be  { local $logger->{level} = DEBUG; ... }
2019-03-21T18:00:06Z jcowan: erkin, lisbeths`: scsh isn't abandoned, just finished.  It only needed some adjustments to keep up with Scheme48, its host Scheme. Be sure to get the Github version, not the 2006 version from scsh.net.
2019-03-21T18:00:30Z jcowan: But scsh isn't recommended as an interactive shell, rather as a Scheme for writing shell scripts.
2019-03-21T18:04:57Z jcowan: LeoNerd: Fluid-let has been abandoned as a bad idea in the presence of threads: parameters (SRFI 39 or R7RS) are a much better way to do dynamic scope.
2019-03-21T18:06:06Z jcowan: lisbeths`: If you go to #sicl, the user `beach` has a plan to write an OS entirely in Common Lisp.  He's currently working on a CL compiler that is meant to be easy to bootstrap, but he has a good paper on what he calls "CLOSOS"
2019-03-21T18:06:21Z jcowan: http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf
2019-03-21T18:06:57Z friscosam: jcowan: offhand do you know how chibi/other schemes implement parameters?  Do they use continuation mark type system?
2019-03-21T18:07:25Z jcowan: RTSL, but I'll take a quick look
2019-03-21T18:07:38Z LeoNerd: jcowan: Ah OK; I'll perhaps have a look at those for idea, thabk you
2019-03-21T18:07:41Z erkin: jcowan: Oh, the GitHub repo is still updated?
2019-03-21T18:07:51Z erkin: Glad to hear that.
2019-03-21T18:08:26Z jcowan: It doesn't need to be.  Scheme48 is frozen too.
2019-03-21T18:08:58Z erkin: s/updat/maintain/
2019-03-21T18:09:03Z jcowan: LeoNerd: I know that in Chicken parameter objects are pointers into a hidden per-thread vector that contains the list of current (car) and previous (cdr) values.
2019-03-21T18:09:16Z jcowan: This vector is grown as needed.
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2019-03-21T18:13:41Z amz3: jcowan: how is going the vector library?
2019-03-21T18:13:42Z amz3: :)
2019-03-21T18:17:41Z jcowan: I have abandoned my attempt to compute the SRFI 133 test suite and will probably write a simpler (non-exhaustive) test suite from scratch.  Since the great bulk of the code is directly derived from SRFI 133, which *is* fully tested, that seems reasonable.
2019-03-21T18:17:50Z jcowan: s/compute/convert
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2019-03-21T18:19:10Z jcowan: The base library (SRFI 4 + u8?, s8?, etc. + complex) is tested and working.
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2019-03-21T18:22:57Z jcowan: mm, needed a bit of an update, but no biggie: was still testing u1vectors, which are no longer in scope
2019-03-21T18:23:12Z moldybits: /buffer 21
2019-03-21T18:23:15Z moldybits: sorry
2019-03-21T18:25:53Z LeoNerd: jcowan: Hrm; but a "parameter" is something that has to be created specifically? Like, it's not just a regular variable?
2019-03-21T18:26:32Z jcowan: A parameter is not a variable at all.  It is a first-class object that can be held in a global variable (typically), a local variable, or an arbitrary Scheme data structure.
2019-03-21T18:27:08Z LeoNerd: Righty.. hmm
2019-03-21T18:27:18Z jcowan: So even though (parameterize ((foo 1)) ...) looks like (let ((foo 1)) ...), the latter binds the new variable foo, whereas the former side-effects the object in the existing variable foo.
2019-03-21T18:27:47Z LeoNerd: So that's quite a different thing then. The storage slots that are subject to these dynamic value-changing rules, are a specially declared fundamentally different kind of thing then
2019-03-21T18:28:11Z LeoNerd: Is that a design decision out of necessity, or because it was decided best that way..?
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2019-03-21T18:39:41Z Zipheir: Scheme is lexical, clearly dynamic variable should be in their own corner.
2019-03-21T18:39:46Z Zipheir: s/variable/&s/
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2019-03-21T18:47:10Z jcowan: As I say, they aren't variables, so aren't declared.  They are objects, and are constructed.  They may be, and often are, stored in variables, but there is no requirement for that.
2019-03-21T18:47:52Z LeoNerd nod
2019-03-21T18:48:05Z LeoNerd: But overall it sounds like quite a new and different thing then, to what perl's `local` does
2019-03-21T18:48:15Z LeoNerd: So maybe not so easy to steal any inspiration from it after all
2019-03-21T18:48:22Z jcowan: Quite.
2019-03-21T18:48:49Z jcowan: But if you place parameter objects in global variables and parameterize them, you get the same general effect as Perl locals, but without the cross-thread complications.
2019-03-21T18:49:07Z jcowan: s/parameterize them/& locally
2019-03-21T18:49:18Z LeoNerd: Oh it's not really a /threading/ thing, it's more about the coroutine-like ability that async/await gives you
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2019-03-21T19:40:41Z TCZ: a man walks into a bar
2019-03-21T19:42:50Z LeoNerd: Cool story bro' >.>
2019-03-21T19:43:31Z amz3: >.>
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2019-03-21T19:44:51Z erkin: >.>
2019-03-21T19:45:48Z taylan: a foo walks into a bar
2019-03-21T19:46:22Z taylan: ^^^ hands down the best joke I made in the last 5 years
2019-03-21T19:47:05Z erkin mild applause
2019-03-21T19:47:14Z kjak: taylan: i smiled
2019-03-21T19:48:34Z Zipheir: taylan: Not so much a joke as an informal grammar for jokes...
2019-03-21T19:52:21Z jcowan: Coroutines are easy to implement in Scheme with call/cc, but I know of no formal library providing them.
2019-03-21T19:53:42Z amz3: at the end of the day, it depends what you want to achieve. Is it a way to allow to resume a function or is it the async / await thing...
2019-03-21T19:53:55Z amz3: I think it is different.
2019-03-21T19:54:13Z amz3: the implementation is different... a general purpose coroutine is not required for async / await.
2019-03-21T19:54:27Z jcowan: Here's a grammar for limericks:
2019-03-21T19:54:31Z jcowan: <limerick>  <a>There once was a (person) from (place)</a>  <a>Whose (body part) was (special case).</a>  <b>When (event) would occur</b>  <b>It would cause (him or her)</b>  <a>To violate (law of time/space).</a> </limerick>
2019-03-21T19:54:40Z jcowan: (ignore the markup)
2019-03-21T19:54:55Z LeoNerd: Mmm.. sortof a template joke. I like it
2019-03-21T19:55:11Z LeoNerd: It reminds me of "Title Of The Song", which is a boyband lovesong in similar style
2019-03-21T20:04:32Z taylan: I don't think I ever used coroutines.  they alleviate the need for explicit async/callback operations, right?  so it looks like you're writing synchronous code, in linear style, but the code could be pausing and letting other code run at certain statements?
2019-03-21T20:05:15Z taylan: because that's something I frequently lament(ed) not being able to do when writing async code, back when I used Objective-C and currently using Java
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2019-03-21T20:28:31Z amz3: my understanding is that coroutines are procedures which can be paused and restarted
2019-03-21T20:30:06Z amz3: what I try to say, is that to allow for the async / await syntax that definition can be relaxed to something where the procedure can be paused, but it always return to the same place, instead of the general purpose coroutine which can pause anywhere and return anywhere and be retarted from anywhere.
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2019-03-21T20:40:19Z Zipheir: What's a good behavior for an either-ref (which extracts a value from a left/right sum type) to follow when its argument isn't an either object?
2019-03-21T20:40:32Z sudden: I've implemented coroutines with continuation marks, concatenating continuation on enter, and slicing it off on yield, that way I don't have to worry about the dangling continuation tail call/cc leaks, no mutation using set! and dynamic bindings are preserved. works great
2019-03-21T20:43:52Z sudden: LeoNerd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delimited_continuation
2019-03-21T20:45:07Z amz3: chez doesn't have continuation mark :/
2019-03-21T20:46:21Z LeoNerd: sudden: Yah; I'm aware of those. async/await is -sort- basically that, with the `async function` being the root of the delimitation
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2019-03-21T20:52:42Z friscosam: amz3: I think that the Racket devs submitted a patch for continuation marks in Chez.
2019-03-21T20:53:00Z friscosam: Or maybe I'm thinking about delimited continuations
2019-03-21T20:57:28Z amz3: yes there is something about continuation marks in the PRs
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2019-03-21T21:30:19Z moldybits: when was the . in (define (rest x . xs) xs) introduced into Scheme?
2019-03-21T21:31:20Z jcowan: Lua semicoroutines are an interesting variant too: a coroutine can yield anywhere but only to its creator.
2019-03-21T21:32:24Z amz3: interesting
2019-03-21T21:32:27Z jcowan: You can get around this by having all coroutines created by a driver which trampolines between them, but a program with multiple drivers will not compose.
2019-03-21T21:32:54Z amz3: hmm
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2019-03-21T21:46:31Z TCZ2: hm
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2019-03-21T23:02:52Z TCZ2: ok
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2019-03-21T23:24:58Z TCZ: do you often have bug where you want (list a b c d) but you get (list a(list b))
2019-03-21T23:25:22Z TCZ: idk its so difficult.. exercise from htdp with files...
2019-03-21T23:25:33Z TCZ: or maybe scheme is not so good language...
2019-03-21T23:25:44Z TCZ: or i dont have brain cells hehe
2019-03-21T23:25:49Z TCZ: (no i have)
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2019-03-21T23:26:13Z TCZ: but i feel like im rewriting same bug 10 times
2019-03-21T23:26:15Z TCZ: -_-
2019-03-21T23:26:30Z TCZ: or 20
2019-03-21T23:27:08Z moldybits: is this about recursion?
2019-03-21T23:27:10Z TCZ: and i was doin this exercise like 2 years ago
2019-03-21T23:27:23Z TCZ: moldybits yes everything in this book is about recursion
2019-03-21T23:27:29Z TCZ: creating paths to files
2019-03-21T23:28:31Z moldybits: i often screw up when concatening results in recursive functions
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2019-03-21T23:34:55Z Zipheir: TCZ: Typically that means something's using list that should be using cons.
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2019-03-21T23:37:12Z Zipheir: TCZ: Or, more to the point, it means you haven't understood how the recursion works in your function.
2019-03-21T23:37:41Z TCZ: yes im doing leaps of faith all the time
2019-03-21T23:38:04Z moldybits: perhaps learn to immediately recognize the difference in (list 'x (foo)) vs (cons 'x (foo)).
2019-03-21T23:39:58Z Zipheir: If in doubt, write an inductive proof.
2019-03-21T23:42:11Z TCZ: i feel like in scheme you have to be more disciplined that in other languages to not make complete mess
2019-03-21T23:43:29Z moldybits: you mean recursion, specifically, or other things, too?
2019-03-21T23:43:30Z Zipheir: How so?
2019-03-21T23:45:26Z amz3: ?
2019-03-21T23:49:03Z Zipheir: rudybot: Join the dogpile!
2019-03-21T23:49:03Z rudybot: Zipheir: dogpile, what were some others its been a while
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2019-03-21T23:57:17Z TCZ: ok i think i made it but still im not sure how xd
2019-03-21T23:58:26Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/qPFG1MFg
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2019-03-21T23:59:19Z TCZ: ok find-all doesnt have to exist
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2019-03-22T00:05:15Z amz3: why no space?
2019-03-22T00:06:44Z TCZ: what do you mean between parentheses and letters?
2019-03-22T00:07:18Z TCZ: to save space : |
2019-03-22T00:08:57Z Zipheir: Ugh, use spaces!
2019-03-22T00:09:20Z TCZ: no, i wont
2019-03-22T00:09:22Z TCZ: :x
2019-03-22T00:09:34Z johnjay: didn't zmacs for the lisp machine use spaces?
2019-03-22T00:09:39Z johnjay: like M-x Find File?
2019-03-22T00:10:00Z Zipheir: TCZ: Doyoualsowritelikethis?
2019-03-22T00:10:32Z TCZ: Zipher Nobutusingparenthesesisdifferentthingthanusingonlyletters
2019-03-22T00:11:01Z johnjay: (i (like (to (use (parens)))))
2019-03-22T00:11:08Z TCZ: and drracket shows in grey where things are
2019-03-22T00:11:29Z TCZ: so there is no C O N F U S I O N
2019-03-22T00:11:33Z Zipheir: Well, your code will be hard to read for everyone else on the planet.
2019-03-22T00:12:06Z TCZ: it could be worse i use indentation at least
2019-03-22T00:12:39Z pjb: use emacs and paredit, and let it insert the spaces for you!
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2019-03-22T00:14:58Z Zipheir: TCZ: I think you may want to break up create-paths-from-dir a bit. It's rather complex.
2019-03-22T00:16:02Z TCZ: i can make map to something like add-prefix
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2019-03-22T00:16:50Z TCZ: and this repetition
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2019-03-22T00:24:48Z TCZ: https://pastebin.com/p9VPABKA
2019-03-22T00:24:56Z TCZ: i think i made it even more complicated
2019-03-22T00:24:59Z TCZ: idk
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2019-03-22T00:31:02Z Zipheir: What's 'local'?
2019-03-22T00:31:31Z Zipheir: It's clearer now, at least.
2019-03-22T00:31:52Z Zipheir: Well, maybe.
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2019-03-22T00:42:12Z TCZ: idk something like let i guess https://www.reddit.com/r/Racket/comments/xvx41/let_vs_local/
2019-03-22T00:42:42Z TCZ: i just used what they use in book
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2019-03-22T00:44:25Z Zipheir: Looks like Racket NIHery.
2019-03-22T00:45:24Z Zipheir: Just use a standard internal define. You've already got one within the local, anyway.
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2019-03-22T00:53:27Z moldybits: i never used foldr much but isn't that expression essentially just a map?
2019-03-22T00:57:21Z moldybits: TCZ: i haven't tested this, i haven't even read my own code, but my impression you're trying to do something like this? https://pastebin.com/idkKBDjt
2019-03-22T00:58:43Z TCZ: well my solution works now i have to think if you are right xd
2019-03-22T01:00:43Z TCZ: i copied your code and i get some empty lists
2019-03-22T01:01:21Z TCZ: but also valid paths
2019-03-22T01:05:09Z TCZ: foldr and append anihilate them i think
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2019-03-22T01:09:10Z moldybits: ah
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2019-03-22T01:11:16Z moldybits: you could filter them out, or maybe use map-append if that's available.
2019-03-22T01:11:24Z Zipheir: append-map
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2019-03-22T01:12:34Z TCZ: idk if this subset of racket has it
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2019-03-22T01:16:08Z Zipheir: It's easy to roll your own.
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2019-03-22T01:20:44Z TCZ: moldybits and your code doesnt pass directory
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2019-03-22T01:21:04Z TCZ: if file is not found it starts from 0
2019-03-22T01:21:29Z TCZ: hahaha
2019-03-22T01:21:39Z TCZ: i have to go
2019-03-22T01:21:50Z TCZ: xd
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2019-03-22T01:54:29Z TCZ: ;p
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2019-03-22T05:32:58Z johnjay: Zipheir: rolling your own is the curse of lisp !
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2019-03-22T05:53:53Z Zipheir: rudybot: Do you roll your own?
2019-03-22T05:53:59Z rudybot: Zipheir: Like, take how it doesn't really do OOP, for instance, although you can kind of roll your own.
2019-03-22T05:54:21Z Zipheir: johnjay: If you're working with a subset for learning purposes, I can't see the harm.
2019-03-22T05:54:39Z johnjay: yeah.
2019-03-22T05:54:47Z johnjay: i was actually thinking about that earlier today
2019-03-22T05:55:00Z johnjay: it seems the only way to learn is by "jumping in" and trying out stuff
2019-03-22T05:55:17Z johnjay: but at the same time you need a base to start from
2019-03-22T05:55:49Z johnjay: like that paper someone linked to before
2019-03-22T05:55:54Z johnjay: Dypvig i think?
2019-03-22T05:56:18Z johnjay: talking about implementing a gc or something for scheme-c
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2019-03-22T06:08:21Z Zipheir: It's possible to go crazy trying to find the right base to start from. Better to practice jumping off from lots of different bases, IMO.
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2019-03-22T06:56:56Z buhman: http://paste.debian.net/1074186/ is this an appropriate/idiomatic continuation usage?
2019-03-22T06:59:34Z buhman: not having written much scheme, the flow control near 44 seems a bit magic, but still cleaner than (let-values ... (if ... (values ...) (loop ...)))
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2019-03-22T10:02:40Z TCZ: i fell into a burning ring of fire
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2019-03-22T16:22:56Z johnjay: Zipheir: in this context would that mean learning different schemes first?
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2019-03-22T16:23:18Z johnjay: or like. i'll try bash, perl, cvs, and scheme-48 to find a jumping off point?
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2019-03-22T16:24:37Z zestymug: scheme rocks
2019-03-22T16:32:35Z moldybits: johnjay: i took it to mean different levels of abstraction, which exists within languages, too.
2019-03-22T16:34:33Z amz3: what is the topic?
2019-03-22T16:35:59Z johnjay: Zipheir said it's better to start from different bases instead of tryign to find the 'perfect' one to start learning from
2019-03-22T16:36:19Z johnjay: i was asking for some context. moldybits is probably right
2019-03-22T16:38:00Z ecraven: my suggestion, just start with any of the larger Schemes, as a beginner it won't matter much, and when it matters, you'll have the knowledge to understand the tradeoffs
2019-03-22T16:39:00Z moldybits: for beginners i think it matters more what resources they're using. what books they're reading, what programs they're studying.
2019-03-22T16:39:24Z pjb: For a beginners, good documentation and a good debugger are important.
2019-03-22T16:39:25Z moldybits: what implementation to use seems secondary, though it's often the first question :o
2019-03-22T16:39:32Z moldybits: ah, that's true
2019-03-22T16:39:35Z pjb: So perhaps Racket is the best for a beginner?
2019-03-22T16:40:03Z moldybits: i was actually thinking more in terms of lisp vs scheme :p
2019-03-22T16:40:59Z johnjay: moldybits: maybe it's best to try different documentations, debuggers, and books then
2019-03-22T16:41:00Z pjb: Then Common Lisp, definitely.
2019-03-22T16:41:34Z pjb: I never could learn scheme, because each time it was too different. It's quite the moving target, between the standard changing every few years, and the different implementations with a lot of implementation specific stuff.
2019-03-22T16:42:21Z pjb: At least, Common Lisp is the same in all CL implementations, and it doesn't change, so you have the time to learn it, even if you change of implementation every year.
2019-03-22T16:42:28Z moldybits: i think it has slowed down more recently? with srfis to smooth things out.
2019-03-22T16:43:33Z amz3: johnjay: start with racket
2019-03-22T16:43:36Z amz3: johnjay: or guile
2019-03-22T16:44:53Z pjb: or mzscheme or bigloo
2019-03-22T16:45:10Z wasamasa: mzscheme is no more and bigloo for beginners, lol
2019-03-22T16:45:25Z pjb: bigloo has nice docs.
2019-03-22T16:45:31Z wasamasa: shows just how long ago you tried to learn it
2019-03-22T16:45:55Z wasamasa: racket wins in the docs department
2019-03-22T16:49:34Z amz3: bigloo? doc? where?!
2019-03-22T16:50:07Z amz3: wasamasa: I benchmark my database :D
2019-03-22T16:50:31Z amz3: s/benchmark/benchmarked/
2019-03-22T16:50:35Z wasamasa: good
2019-03-22T16:50:39Z amz3: wasamasa: it is a hundred times slower that java :/
2019-03-22T16:50:48Z wasamasa: it happens
2019-03-22T16:50:53Z amz3: :)
2019-03-22T16:51:37Z amz3: maybe it is minikanren that is slowing things, I need to investigate, but 100 times slower is big.
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2019-03-22T18:10:14Z ecraven: amz3: do you run it on chez? chez has a nice-ish profiler, that outputs an html heat map
2019-03-22T18:10:57Z amz3: ecraven: good idea
2019-03-22T18:11:06Z amz3: I try it and report back
2019-03-22T18:22:32Z johnjay: what's the compiler technical language way to say that setq assigns references/pointers
2019-03-22T18:22:37Z johnjay: as opposed to values?
2019-03-22T18:22:55Z johnjay: e.g. (setq b (cdr b)) doesn't mean (car b) has vanished, it's still there
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2019-03-22T18:36:35Z rain1: johnjay: setq is not in scheme
2019-03-22T18:36:59Z ashawley: variable binding?
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2019-03-22T18:41:21Z ggole: Persistent?
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2019-03-22T18:43:53Z pjb: johnjay: what do you want to know? since  "setq/set! assigns references/pointers" has nothing to do with "(setq b (cdr b)) doesn't mean (car b) has vanished, it's still there"?
2019-03-22T18:44:42Z pjb: johnjay: (car b) may or may not vanish, depending on whether there are other references to it after (setq b (cdr b)).
2019-03-22T18:45:19Z johnjay: whatat does scheme use instead of setq? set!?
2019-03-22T18:45:34Z pjb: Yes, set! but for (setf car) it uses set-car!
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2019-03-22T18:45:42Z pjb: (set-cdr! b (cdr b))
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2019-03-22T18:46:05Z rain1: yes SET!
2019-03-22T18:46:19Z johnjay: well so if my program is simple (set! k '(1 2 3))
2019-03-22T18:46:20Z pjb: Also, why do you come to #scheme if you use CL or emacs lisp?
2019-03-22T18:46:36Z rain1: ok
2019-03-22T18:46:45Z johnjay: then you set it to be it's cdr. would the 1 be gc'd?
2019-03-22T18:46:50Z rain1: yes
2019-03-22T18:46:50Z johnjay: pjb: i use a lot of thigns
2019-03-22T18:46:52Z johnjay: *things
2019-03-22T18:46:55Z rain1: it would be gc'd
2019-03-22T18:46:56Z johnjay: except spelling
2019-03-22T18:46:59Z johnjay: oh
2019-03-22T18:47:15Z johnjay: ah ok i think i understand now
2019-03-22T18:47:18Z pjb: Indeed, if there are no other references to (car b), it may become garbage and be collected (if more memory is needed).
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2019-03-22T18:47:40Z johnjay: that's why the code i was using set a dummy variable to refer to the car of the list
2019-03-22T18:47:52Z johnjay: so that during the procedure the list would still exist
2019-03-22T18:48:03Z johnjay: i.e. after repeatedly setting (set! k (cdr k))
2019-03-22T18:48:11Z johnjay: or whichever
2019-03-22T18:48:12Z pjb: Yes, if you need it, you better do that indeed.
2019-03-22T18:48:40Z johnjay: it was a while loop that iterated over a list
2019-03-22T18:49:11Z pjb: (lambda (list) (let ((current list)) (while current (setf current (cdr current)))))
2019-03-22T18:51:23Z johnjay: ah ok
2019-03-22T18:51:33Z johnjay: the code i read was really weird though
2019-03-22T18:51:41Z johnjay: it actually used list as the variable
2019-03-22T18:51:45Z johnjay: then set it back to current at the end
2019-03-22T18:51:47Z johnjay: but same idea
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2019-03-22T19:06:28Z amz3: ecraven: here the summary of the profile https://screenshots.firefox.com/14JxOfaqJH6CD8xi/null
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2019-03-22T19:08:58Z gwatt: amz3: you should also be able to view the call counts for each file
2019-03-22T19:10:09Z amz3: I do
2019-03-22T19:11:37Z amz3: here is the profile of minikanren: https://screenshots.firefox.com/64pHB0iW483DDyYt/null
2019-03-22T19:12:02Z amz3: here the profile of the most called code https://screenshots.firefox.com/jKAhvfv5DpfmH4eM/null
2019-03-22T19:12:05Z gwatt: looks pretty sparsely used
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2019-03-22T19:13:57Z amz3: the second is profile, is where most of the calls happens, it is two procedures that copy some byte array into a bytevector.
2019-03-22T19:14:06Z amz3: s/is//
2019-03-22T19:15:24Z gwatt: can you pass bytevectors directly instead of copying?
2019-03-22T19:16:21Z amz3: that what I was trying to explain last time on #chez, until I discovered #$object-adress I did not know how to pass a bytevector without copying
2019-03-22T19:16:45Z amz3: I mean, in this case, the bytevector is in a struct as an opaque void*
2019-03-22T19:16:53Z gwatt: Ah, that would do it
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2019-03-22T22:41:41Z amz3: I can not find the source of the bottleneck, every procedure I time is around a few millisecond, once I time minikanren I have weird timings :8
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2019-03-22T22:57:06Z gwatt: It's too bad the profiling information doesn't include total and average time spent in a function
2019-03-22T22:58:06Z amz3: yep
2019-03-22T22:58:13Z amz3: I will add an issue on github for that
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2019-03-22T23:05:53Z amz3: the profiler is cnanopass.ss lol
2019-03-22T23:06:03Z amz3: 16k sloc
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2019-03-22T23:19:35Z amz3: I will rework the code to avoid minikanren, it will be clear whether the problem is minikanren or not also I will avoid digging into 16k sloc
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2019-03-23T00:01:11Z amz3: unbelievable...
2019-03-23T00:01:17Z amz3: I removed minikanren from the mix
2019-03-23T00:01:40Z amz3: with minikanren, the database was 100 times slower...
2019-03-23T00:02:02Z amz3: ... and now it 3 times faster bringing the query time to a low 57ms
2019-03-23T00:03:18Z amz3: well two times faster... still good if you ask me :)
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2019-03-23T02:24:28Z r1b: how can I "mock" a procedure?
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2019-03-23T02:26:40Z r1b: say there is a procedure (current-seconds) that returns the current timestamp, how can I make any procedure that calls (current-seconds) return whatever I want?
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2019-03-23T02:27:36Z aeth: Afaik that is implementation-specific.
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2019-03-23T02:30:31Z ashawley: Usually involves overriding the environment
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2019-03-23T02:46:18Z buhman: how is that different from redefining the function, then restoring it after the test is done?
2019-03-23T02:48:27Z pjb: buhman: eg. threads.
2019-03-23T02:50:49Z buhman: oh, are all bindings thread-local?
2019-03-23T02:51:02Z buhman: I thought that's what make-parameter was for
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2019-03-23T02:54:19Z pjb: buhman: no, that's the point. If you want to mock a procedure, you may not want it to be mocked in all the threads, like the debugger thread, but editor thread, etc.
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2019-03-23T13:49:05Z amz3: rudybot: I am happy because my database is not slow
2019-03-23T13:49:20Z rudybot: amz3: I'm sure my caveman ancestors are happy to know the secret to happiness is numbers in a database
2019-03-23T13:50:40Z amz3: rudybot: did you benchmark your transderivationnal search algorithm?
2019-03-23T13:50:45Z rudybot: amz3: there is less code, but what you they are logically the same behavior, the syntax changes a bit but you can achieve the same transderivationnal search in the search space
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2019-03-23T14:46:42Z libfud: Why is any non-#f value true in scheme?
2019-03-23T14:46:53Z wasamasa: #f is the only falsy thing
2019-03-23T14:47:12Z wasamasa: from this one can reason that everything else is truthy
2019-03-23T14:47:31Z libfud: is that what the logic was during the design of Scheme?
2019-03-23T14:47:49Z wasamasa: not initially
2019-03-23T14:47:53Z libfud: oh?
2019-03-23T14:48:03Z libfud: so it's something that came about after feedback?
2019-03-23T14:48:05Z wasamasa: yup
2019-03-23T14:48:14Z wasamasa: you should like, read about the community standardization process
2019-03-23T14:48:21Z libfud: where can I find that?
2019-03-23T14:48:51Z wasamasa: on the world wide web, search for r5rs, r6rs, r7rs
2019-03-23T14:48:57Z libfud: thanks
2019-03-23T14:49:46Z wasamasa: the reason why it wasn't initially this way is because they started experimenting from something designed on top of maclisp
2019-03-23T14:50:00Z wasamasa: the design started deviating from it soon enough
2019-03-23T14:50:31Z libfud: ah
2019-03-23T14:50:55Z libfud: I'm reading through "An introduction to Scheme and its Implementation"
2019-03-23T14:50:59Z wasamasa: in maclisp there was no #f, just the special nil symbol which was equivalent to the empty list literal ()
2019-03-23T14:51:25Z libfud: ah
2019-03-23T14:51:38Z wasamasa: in case you're curious what else maclisp influenced, its descendants are emacs lisp and common lisp
2019-03-23T14:52:02Z libfud: I've seen that booleans get very irregular treatment across most languages
2019-03-23T14:52:20Z wasamasa: there's a few papers showing how scheme looked like back then, like the rabbit compiler and the simple interpreter it ran on
2019-03-23T14:53:08Z libfud: ...there's a lot of things I need to read, but I also have limited time. Not making excuses but rather just sad that I know I can't put as much time into it as I'd like
2019-03-23T14:53:47Z libfud: I'm not a big fan of elisp
2019-03-23T14:54:00Z libfud: I do really like being able to use lisp in my editor though :)
2019-03-23T14:56:49Z libfud: R5RS is much shorter than I thought it would be
2019-03-23T14:57:00Z wasamasa: it's a nice read
2019-03-23T14:57:23Z wasamasa: r6rs is far bigger compared, r7rs tries unifying them
2019-03-23T14:58:04Z wasamasa: as in, adding the most important features for r7rs-small and everything else for r7rs-large (which is yet to be completed)
2019-03-23T14:58:31Z pjb: libfud: the alternative would be to signal an error when you test a non #f or #t.  Are you ready to handle errors in each and very tests?
2019-03-23T14:58:44Z libfud: so in R5RS when it says that "actual argument expressions are evaluated before the procedure gains control", that does not apply to special forms like conditionals, right?
2019-03-23T14:59:01Z pjb: (if (handler-case (predicate? foo) (type-error (err) "fuck what do I do now?")) …)
2019-03-23T14:59:06Z wasamasa: right, because these aren't procedures
2019-03-23T14:59:43Z libfud: pjb: I'm approaching it from a strongly type POV where only booleans should be used for predicates
2019-03-23T14:59:49Z libfud: s/type/typed
2019-03-23T15:00:19Z libfud: I need to get back into a dynamic typing mindset
2019-03-23T15:00:48Z pjb: Strongly typed is coslty.  For example, (member 2 '(1 2 3)) #| --> (2 3) |#   (member? 2 '(1 2 3))  #| --> #f |#  you would need to duplicate a lot of functions…
2019-03-23T15:01:08Z pjb: Yes, it'd be better.
2019-03-23T15:08:06Z pjb: or you can imagine that if is actually if-is-not-#f ;-)
2019-03-23T15:08:20Z libfud: that's essentially how I've talked about it in my notes
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2019-03-23T16:56:34Z johnjay: libfud: what notes are those?
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2019-03-23T17:28:15Z libfud: johnjay: ah, I'm taking notes for a personal project
2019-03-23T17:28:38Z libfud: a few years ago I kind of accidentally wrote a lisp interpreter, but it was very bad
2019-03-23T17:29:18Z libfud: it started as a calculator with lisp-like notation but evolved into a lisp interpreter after I added the ability to define functions
2019-03-23T17:29:56Z libfud: so now I want to try out writing a bare-bones scheme interpreter, but with that intent from the start
2019-03-23T17:31:20Z rain1: cool libfud, how do you intend to implement it and which languaeg will you use?
2019-03-23T17:31:39Z libfud: I'm writing it in rust
2019-03-23T17:31:57Z Zipheir: pjb: Why would member 'duplicate a lot of code' in a static system? (member 2 '(1 2 3)) ; --> (just (2 3))  (member 5 '(1 2 3))  ; --> nothing
2019-03-23T17:32:32Z libfud: as for implementation, I was going to go down a similar route as I did before but I want to re-examine it at each step
2019-03-23T17:33:13Z libfud: I have a very simple tokenizer that parses a string into s expressions for now but I want to think about how I implement lexical scoping and environment
2019-03-23T17:34:07Z libfud: before I had used a tree of hashmaps for the environment
2019-03-23T17:34:45Z pjb: Zipheir: or rewrite all the standard functions to deal with that. But again, #f = nothing and (2 3) = just (2 3) just deal with it!
2019-03-23T17:35:24Z pjb: libfud: you may want to read LiSP: Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2019-03-23T17:35:51Z libfud: thanks pjb
2019-03-23T17:35:52Z Zipheir: pjb: I'm not suggesting rewriting all the value/#f procedures, just pointing out it's not difficult.
2019-03-23T17:36:08Z libfud: I mentioned before that I'm reading An Introduction to Scheme and its implementation
2019-03-23T17:36:20Z pjb: libfud: LiSP is also about scheme.
2019-03-23T17:36:25Z libfud: I've been a bit sidetracked since going over R5RS
2019-03-23T17:36:53Z libfud: pjb: I'm not trying to say it isn't, I actually was going to ask if anyone had read it and had thoughts about it
2019-03-23T17:37:18Z pjb: I have it right in front of me, just behind my computer screen.
2019-03-23T17:38:18Z libfud: this?
2019-03-23T17:38:21Z libfud: https://www.cs.rpi.edu/academics/courses/fall00/ai/scheme/reference/schintro-v14/schintro_toc.html
2019-03-23T17:38:37Z libfud: I'd definitely like to find it in a more booklike format
2019-03-23T17:38:47Z pjb: libfud: what's particular with this book, is that it describes 9 implementations of scheme, in succeeding chapters, from the simpliest interpreter to a non-trivial compiler.
2019-03-23T17:38:58Z Zipheir: I've skimmed Scheme and Its Implementation. It seems to be decent.
2019-03-23T17:39:06Z libfud: nice
2019-03-23T17:39:16Z libfud: should I start with lisp in small pieces instead?
2019-03-23T17:39:31Z pjb: Just have a look at it, and choose the one you prefer.
2019-03-23T17:39:36Z libfud: ok
2019-03-23T17:40:08Z Zipheir: LiSP is pretty dense in places, just as a warning.
2019-03-23T17:40:29Z libfud: thanks for the warning
2019-03-23T17:41:06Z pjb: And if you like more theorical stuff, you might be interested in "Compiling with Continuations" https://www.amazon.com/Compiling-Continuations-Andrew-W-Appel/dp/052103311X
2019-03-23T17:41:21Z Zipheir: Another really good, horribly expensive book :)
2019-03-23T17:42:08Z libfud: I could bookmark it and buy it once I've gotten a job
2019-03-23T17:42:24Z libfud: or be a pos and find it on libgen
2019-03-23T17:43:12Z libfud: which reminds me that I need to send out a few more resumes
2019-03-23T17:43:24Z Zipheir: The price is truly unfair. There's nothing immoral about libgen in this case, IMHO.
2019-03-23T17:44:25Z zestymug: Zipheir, in any case?
2019-03-23T17:44:41Z Zipheir: In at least this case :)
2019-03-23T17:45:04Z zestymug: is libgen bad in any case though
2019-03-23T17:45:24Z zestymug: the copyright system is bought by media companies
2019-03-23T17:45:28Z libfud: I've felt guilty about using it a couple times
2019-03-23T17:46:00Z zestymug: libgen => libfud
2019-03-23T17:46:09Z libfud: lol
2019-03-23T17:46:10Z zestymug: (map lib ('gen fud ) )
2019-03-23T17:46:31Z Zipheir: I don't think it's bad in any case, but I do try to buy books by living authors that are reasonably-priced.
2019-03-23T17:47:47Z Zipheir: (which, in the academic world, means very few of them.)
2019-03-23T17:49:26Z libfud: speaking of
2019-03-23T17:49:49Z libfud: right after James Stewart died they published a new edition of his calculus book
2019-03-23T17:49:57Z zestymug: ha
2019-03-23T17:49:58Z libfud: which was then required for Calc 3
2019-03-23T17:50:08Z libfud: really fucking pissed me off
2019-03-23T17:51:01Z ashawley: No one has retired from their academic textbook royalties
2019-03-23T17:51:16Z libfud: publishers are a racket
2019-03-23T17:51:23Z libfud: and IP law is a joke in bad taste
2019-03-23T17:51:28Z rain1: agreed
2019-03-23T17:51:39Z amz3: +1
2019-03-23T17:52:10Z ashawley: It's probably cool to say "I wrote the book on...", though
2019-03-23T17:52:31Z libfud: I've met a few people who've written such books
2019-03-23T17:52:34Z rain1: http://agl.cs.unm.edu/~williams/cs491/three-imp.pdf this is a good free text on implementing scheme
2019-03-23T17:52:45Z ashawley: That's the important contribution
2019-03-23T17:52:47Z libfud: my Dynamics professor wrote the textbook for that class
2019-03-23T17:52:51Z Zipheir: Copyright law isn't needed to say "I wrote the book on X".
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2019-03-23T17:53:56Z Zipheir: A mouth is needed, presumably, and basic speech processing ability.
2019-03-23T17:53:56Z zestymug: ashawley, stewart had a house built for 34 million
2019-03-23T17:54:21Z libfud: I also remember when Naval Reactors was doing oral examinations they asked a question to our CWO who had written the manual from which the interviewer had pulled the question
2019-03-23T17:54:24Z amz3: Zipheir: x)
2019-03-23T17:54:53Z libfud: so he got to say
2019-03-23T17:55:04Z libfud: "ah, yes, I remember when I wrote that down."
2019-03-23T17:59:31Z Zipheir: libfud: Another nice paper on Scheme implementation is Olin Shiver's dissertation, which should probably just be called "Compiling Lambda" http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/diss.pdf
2019-03-23T18:00:09Z pjb: (speak "I wrote the book on emacs speech")
2019-03-23T18:00:57Z ashawley: zestymug: That's wild
2019-03-23T18:01:32Z ashawley: A biology, chemistry or calculus book with broader appeal is likely the exception, and not the rule
2019-03-23T18:02:17Z pjb: The web has been invented for a reason.
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2019-03-23T19:35:36Z libfud: do any of you guys handle hiring procedures at your job?
2019-03-23T19:35:58Z libfud: I'm not asking for a job, just advice on what people look for resumes
2019-03-23T19:38:17Z wasamasa: how is this related with scheme?
2019-03-23T19:40:41Z libfud: sorry, it's not. I'll refrain from non-topical questions
2019-03-23T19:44:01Z soegaard: libfud: YCoombinator has videos on most aspects of startup life. Including how to hire people. I haven't watched this particular video, but usually their videos are fine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Dl8rZ6qwE
2019-03-23T19:44:56Z libfud: thanks soegaard
2019-03-23T19:45:09Z soegaard: wait till you have seen it ;-)
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2019-03-23T19:46:03Z libfud: I'm watching it now. I'm not aiming for startups in the tech industry but I imagine I'll find enough general information to satisfy me
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2019-03-23T21:14:56Z johnjay: libfud: i feel your pain. on the other hand a good c textbook I found has a 3rd edition for $100+ that is total crap
2019-03-23T21:15:04Z johnjay: so i didn't feel too bad about buying the 2nd used
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2019-03-23T21:16:29Z johnjay: Zenton: what is the "FFP" machine in the introduction?
2019-03-23T21:16:50Z johnjay: er Zipheir i mean
2019-03-23T21:19:53Z Zipheir: johnjay: In what, Olin's dissertation?
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2019-03-23T21:23:52Z Zipheir: johnjay: K&R is the only good C textbook.
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2019-03-23T23:19:25Z Jackiew2: Are atoms and s-expressions the equivalent of letters and words
2019-03-23T23:23:15Z wasamasa: no
2019-03-23T23:28:55Z libfud: reading about continuations in r5rs leaves me feeling pretty lost
2019-03-23T23:40:12Z pjb: Jackiew2: atoms are S-expressions.
2019-03-23T23:40:27Z pjb: Jackiew2: lists of S-expressions are S-expressions.
2019-03-23T23:40:33Z pjb: Those are all the S-expressions.
2019-03-23T23:40:57Z pjb: libfud: continuations are difficult and low-level; you can skip over them in a first reading.
2019-03-23T23:41:22Z pjb: car/cdr -------------------> continuations -------------> monads
2019-03-23T23:41:58Z libfud: aren't monads a way to model side effects in a system?
2019-03-23T23:42:01Z aeth: Jackiew2: atoms aren't a particularly useful concept in modern Lisps imo since e.g. vectors are atoms.
2019-03-23T23:42:21Z aeth: You'd only really think that way in macros, maybe.
2019-03-23T23:42:46Z pjb: aeth: atoms aren't a particularly useful concept in modern Physics imo since e.g. bags of quarks are atoms.
2019-03-23T23:43:41Z pjb: (define (atom? x) (not (cons? x)))  (define (cons? x) (not (atom? x)))
2019-03-23T23:43:41Z aeth: pjb: They aren't a particularly useful concept in modern physics. I'm guessing chemists think about atoms a lot more.
2019-03-23T23:44:11Z pjb: Depends on the kind of chemists.
2019-03-23T23:44:22Z libfud: idk they're fairly useful in nuclear physics
2019-03-23T23:44:38Z libfud: cross sections for different kinds of reactions for isotopes
2019-03-23T23:44:57Z pjb: But the point is that it's an atom/cons dichotomy, we don't care whether atoms are atomic or not, any more than we care whether chemistry atoms are atomic or not (they're both not atomic).
2019-03-23T23:45:00Z libfud: e.g. cross section of absorption for thermal neutrons for fissile material
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2019-03-23T23:46:09Z libfud: anyway I'm going off topic with that anyway
2019-03-23T23:46:57Z aeth: pjb: My point is that it basically never comes up, though. Even in low level recursive Scheme algorithms you're probably just going to be testing for null? at the end. I guess it could come up while going through a tree.
2019-03-23T23:47:10Z libfud: I just understand atoms in the context of S expressions as being an element that can not be decomposed into something else. Like with the vector example, when you reference an element from that vector, that's a separate atom but the vector itself remains an atom
2019-03-23T23:47:29Z pjb: libfud: no, it's an element that is not a cons cell.
2019-03-23T23:47:29Z aeth: libfud: yes.
2019-03-23T23:47:47Z aeth: libfud: wait
2019-03-23T23:47:48Z aeth: no
2019-03-23T23:47:52Z aeth: pjb's right
2019-03-23T23:47:56Z pjb: atoms can usually be decomposed. eg. strings into characters, vectors into elements, etc.
2019-03-23T23:48:03Z aeth: An atom is just anything that's not pair?
2019-03-23T23:48:09Z pjb: And one atom is a list: ().
2019-03-23T23:48:12Z libfud: oh ok
2019-03-23T23:48:27Z Zipheir: Atoms are things that can't be decomposed with car/cdr/other S-expression operators.
2019-03-23T23:49:32Z aeth: libfud: you could think of it in terms of can't be decomposed syntactically, in a sense. more of a macro mindset.
2019-03-23T23:49:42Z aeth: #(1 2 3 4) is kind of special.
2019-03-23T23:49:58Z aeth: Even #(1 2 #(3 4)) is probably treated differently than '(1 2 (3 4))
2019-03-23T23:50:10Z libfud: in the same way that "foo" is special?
2019-03-23T23:50:21Z Zipheir: It doesn't really matter. There's no atom? in standard Scheme, since pair? is a clearer and more useful distinction.
2019-03-23T23:51:27Z aeth: libfud: well "foo"'s a bit different because there's no valid "foo"bar""
2019-03-23T23:51:55Z aeth: strings don't have the nesting that hashes (can't talk about them portably here, though) and vectors can get
2019-03-23T23:52:24Z libfud: wait I have a question related to vector
2019-03-23T23:52:27Z aeth: Zipheir: right, and even if there was an atom? you'd 95% of the time be using pair? which you don't even need when list-traversing, only when tree-traversing
2019-03-23T23:52:47Z libfud: I thought vector was a contiguous, region of memory that stores data of a homogeneous type
2019-03-23T23:52:49Z Zipheir: Right,
2019-03-23T23:53:00Z libfud: so then what is #(1 3 #(3 4))?
2019-03-23T23:53:16Z Zipheir: No, vectors are heterogenous in Lisp.
2019-03-23T23:53:45Z Zipheir: #(1 "two") is legit.
2019-03-23T23:54:13Z pjb:  #(1 3.14 (a b c) d "hello" #(3 4))
2019-03-23T23:54:56Z aeth: libfud: In Lisps, vectors can be seen as an array of pointers, where there is a probable (but not required) optimization where things smaller than the word size (including their type tag, so single-float and not double-float in 64 bit) aren't pointers
2019-03-23T23:56:11Z aeth: There are possible optimizations to get more efficient homogeneous types. Strings are essentially this in most implementations (probably UTF-32). Scheme requires byte vectors, Common Lisp requires bit vectors and de facto every implementation has byte vectors.
2019-03-23T23:56:34Z aeth: Common Lisp tends to be better here afaik in terms of including lots of element-types, but they're still mostly simple numeric ones.
2019-03-23T23:57:22Z aeth: Emacs Lisp afaik is the weakest here because it's a text editor.
2019-03-23T23:58:30Z libfud: so in the case of #(a1 .. an #(b1 .. bm)), it could be internally stored as a pointer to an array with n*size_of(a) bytes, and the n + 1th pointer points to a separate region of memory where there is m*size_of(b) bytes?
2019-03-23T23:59:08Z Zipheir: That's implementation-defined. Just use the vector abstraction!
2019-03-23T23:59:18Z aeth: libfud: probably, but it's a high level abstraction
2019-03-23T23:59:42Z Zipheir: libfud: See also bytevectors.
2019-03-23T23:59:50Z aeth: libfud: Abstractions with arrays means you can actually have more optimizations than C can offer because there isn't a mandated low level representation
2019-03-24T00:00:19Z aeth: I mean, probably not because millions of dollars go to C compiler developers, but in theory you could.
2019-03-24T00:00:41Z libfud: C isn't the end-all be-all of performance
2019-03-24T00:00:50Z aeth: Well, here Fortran is.
2019-03-24T00:00:54Z aeth: Or at least, traditionally was.
2019-03-24T00:01:02Z libfud: still is in some applications
2019-03-24T00:01:08Z libfud: like things with arrays
2019-03-24T00:01:21Z libfud: scientific computing
2019-03-24T00:02:05Z libfud: apparently Steel Bank Common Lisp is very optimized
2019-03-24T00:02:19Z pjb: But it's not scheme so we don't talk about it here.
2019-03-24T00:02:25Z pjb: Try #sbcl, #lisp or ##lisp.
2019-03-24T00:02:47Z libfud: if I would rate my knowledge of scheme as novice, I would say that my knowledge of common lisp is essentially nonexistent
2019-03-24T00:02:56Z aeth: libfud: oh, it's not sizeof(a) btw it's always going to be 64 bits (so would that be 8 then?)
2019-03-24T00:03:28Z libfud: 64 bits on amd64 and armv64, or 64 bits independent of platform?
2019-03-24T00:03:29Z aeth: with the exception of things like byte arrays, but those are homogenous so you can't have the array in it
2019-03-24T00:03:51Z aeth: some implementations are 32 bit and 64 bit, some are just 64 bit because it's 2019.
2019-03-24T00:04:09Z libfud: fair enough
2019-03-24T00:04:11Z aeth: it will be the word size
2019-03-24T00:04:18Z aeth: that means that 32 bit implementations will be much less efficient
2019-03-24T00:05:03Z libfud: hmm
2019-03-24T00:05:05Z aeth: remember, unless it's a specific type (like a byte array or a string) it's going to be a pointer or something that can fit in the word size *including* the type tag (the type tag can be removed if it's an array specific to the type, e.g. SBCL removes the type tag for double-float arrays, making it very efficient)
2019-03-24T00:05:19Z libfud: I'm getting tempted to benchmark matrix multiplication in something like chicken
2019-03-24T00:06:36Z aeth: The fastest mat mul is probably going to be in SBCL, but that's a CL and this is #scheme
2019-03-24T00:07:33Z aeth: Afaik, SBCL is probably the fastest you can get in stuff like this without vectorization, so unless a Scheme does SIMD, it won't be beaten, but could be essentially tied.
2019-03-24T00:07:54Z aeth: (And a Scheme that compiled to SBCL would trivially tie it.)
2019-03-24T00:08:04Z libfud: chicken compiles to C so there could be some vectorization there, right?
2019-03-24T00:08:13Z aeth: possibly, if it has the right data structures exposed
2019-03-24T00:08:22Z aeth: there's a major mismatch between a Lisp and C.
2019-03-24T00:08:31Z aeth: Compiling to C doesn't make it fast, it just makes it slow to compile. :-p
2019-03-24T00:08:37Z libfud: lol
2019-03-24T00:09:36Z aeth: Whether you target asm or C you have a lot of abstractions to support stuff like dynamic typing (like runtime type tags) that you then have to remove via optimizations for non-generic high-performance things like float matrix multiplication
2019-03-24T00:09:52Z libfud: yeah
2019-03-24T00:09:59Z pjb: Only the slow parts of a program are written in C or C++. The fast parts are written in lisp, ruby or python.
2019-03-24T00:11:17Z libfud: what does parallel programming look like in scheme?
2019-03-24T00:11:31Z aeth: There's probably a SRFI
2019-03-24T00:11:56Z libfud: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiLisp
2019-03-24T00:12:08Z aeth: Common Lisp does a lot better job at handling these sorts of things (like optimizations and parallelization) *portably*, though.
2019-03-24T00:12:25Z aeth: So you'd probably have to pick a Scheme implementation and see what it offers
2019-03-24T00:14:48Z aeth: That's the main difference between the two major traditional Lisp families.
2019-03-24T00:16:25Z aeth: libfud: In case I wasn't clear, I was just talking about my mental model of how typical Lisps work... there's no guarantee that they actually work like that, especially exotic Schemes like ones targeting JS.
2019-03-24T00:17:49Z libfud: there's definitely a ton of different implementations for both
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2019-03-24T00:18:35Z libfud: does racket count as a scheme?
2019-03-24T00:19:21Z pjb: racket implements several languages AFAIK.  One of them might be a scheme.
2019-03-24T00:20:00Z aeth: libfud: Racket changed its name from PLT Scheme when it made its cons pairs (also called cons cells) immutable because it technically is required by Scheme to be mutable. (It does provide an mpair)
2019-03-24T00:20:56Z aeth: Immutable cons pairs allow for more optimizations, but they also prevent certain remember-the-tail-and-set-it algorithms that you can use in other Lisps, requiring you to write things naively and then reverse at the end, or perhaps just reversing the input first. (Calling cons builds to the *front* of a list.)
2019-03-24T00:21:39Z aeth: Racket's in the Scheme family because it's Scheme-descended and still closely related, but the language itself technically isn't a conforming standard Scheme. It also is host to many true Schemes.
2019-03-24T00:25:15Z aeth: (Confusingly, Racket is both a language and a platform that hosts many languages, with "#lang foo" at the top of the file.)
2019-03-24T00:25:52Z aeth: (You can just "#lang r5rs" or "#lang r6rs" or "#lang r7rs" to get portable, standard Schemes, but I think r7rs is just provided as a 3rd party library)
2019-03-24T00:37:09Z libfud: do you use guile or a different implementation?
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2019-03-24T00:41:14Z aeth: I use chibi-scheme when I want to test something in r7rs-small (it's a minimal, very-standard Scheme), and Racket for investigating Scheme behavior in general.
2019-03-24T00:43:51Z aeth: But in general, I write a Scheme, not in Scheme.
2019-03-24T00:45:31Z libfud: do you generally write your schemes in another scheme (or lisp) or in a compiled language?
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2019-03-24T00:48:01Z aeth: Oh, one more thing about vectors. They store the length with them, like Pascal, not like C. Same with strings, although they *probably* are 1 longer than they say and have a hidden \0 at the end just for C compatibility.
2019-03-24T00:48:07Z libfud: Also, why? Since schemes provide macros to create DSLs, why would you create another?
2019-03-24T00:48:15Z aeth: libfud: My Scheme project, which is off and on, is a Scheme on top of CL
2019-03-24T00:48:22Z libfud: oic
2019-03-24T00:48:50Z libfud: good to hear they also store length
2019-03-24T00:48:59Z libfud: nul termination is an abomination
2019-03-24T00:49:37Z aeth: It's what you get out of necessity when you have insufficient abstractions, like in C or Brainfuck.
2019-03-24T00:50:07Z aeth: nul termination is trivial in Brainfuck
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2019-03-24T00:50:56Z aeth: Not storing the length is a memory optimization, and it makes it easier to do low-level manipulations over part of an array/string/whatever.
2019-03-24T00:51:26Z aeth: (Well, a bit tricky with a string since the built-ins assume that \0)
2019-03-24T00:52:01Z aeth: Common Lisp gets around this by having nearly every sequence function take in a start and end (or start1/end1 start2/end2)
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2019-03-24T00:52:17Z aeth: I think with Scheme, r7rs-large is going to go for something fancier.
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2019-03-24T00:57:18Z aeth: (Afaik, it would be the same start/end concept, just as an object instead of putting it in every procedure API.)
2019-03-24T00:58:04Z libfud: as its own object or as a property of sequence objects?
2019-03-24T00:59:15Z aeth: the concept is vector slices iirc
2019-03-24T01:00:31Z aeth: It doesn't look like the SRFI has been published yet
2019-03-24T01:00:31Z libfud: ah ok
2019-03-24T01:00:55Z aeth: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fsrfi.schemers.org%2F+slice&t=ht&ia=web
2019-03-24T01:01:01Z libfud: rust has good slicing imo
2019-03-24T01:01:45Z zestymug: what langs do you work with libfud
2019-03-24T01:01:47Z libfud: if you have a Vec foo, you can slice it with foo[begin .. end], foo[..end] and foo[begin..]
2019-03-24T01:02:20Z libfud: zestymug: rust, C or C++ when required, elisp or scheme when I want to just think about simple problems real fast
2019-03-24T01:03:02Z libfud: R for data analysis/plotting
2019-03-24T01:04:01Z libfud: matlab when absolutely necesssary (generally anything requiring symbolic algebra)
2019-03-24T01:04:17Z libfud: I fucking hate matlab
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2019-03-24T01:05:27Z libfud: I should probably do more in scheme
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2019-03-24T01:08:00Z libfud: most of the stuff I do with python is translating a program I wrote in Rust or scheme to something my friends can use/understand
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2019-03-24T01:11:40Z libfud: come to think of it, the bulk of the stuff I write in scheme is doing math to figure out how/what I should do in something in rust
2019-03-24T01:13:16Z ashawley: scheme is often my desk calculator, as well
2019-03-24T01:13:16Z zestymug: libfud, my job is 100% javascript
2019-03-24T01:13:19Z zestymug: and some bash scripting
2019-03-24T01:13:30Z zestymug: but scheme is my first love
2019-03-24T01:13:34Z zestymug: and ML
2019-03-24T01:15:02Z libfud: if I get my way and get a job writing software in the aerospace industry I expect that I'll primarily be writing in C++ or C
2019-03-24T01:15:20Z libfud: I really hope I don't get suckered with matlab or labview
2019-03-24T01:15:40Z pjb: There are better programming languages for aerospace stuff.  Try Ada!
2019-03-24T01:16:23Z libfud: I haven't yet, but I've heard about it. Used to be DOD mandated, it's supposed to be verifiably safe
2019-03-24T01:16:33Z libfud: iirc it's also used in the health care industry
2019-03-24T01:16:46Z libfud: s/safe/correct
2019-03-24T01:16:58Z aeth: Ada suffered from having overpriced compilers.
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2019-03-24T01:17:50Z libfud: I haven't seen ada mentioned in the job postings I've been looking at
2019-03-24T01:18:19Z libfud: but I also know that I've barely scratched the surface, and it might be used anyway without getting mentioned
2019-03-24T01:19:05Z zestymug: libfud, writing flight software?
2019-03-24T01:19:10Z zestymug: or ground control stuff
2019-03-24T01:19:30Z libfud: flight software, simulations, ground control, analysis of test data
2019-03-24T01:19:38Z libfud: those are the things I've seen
2019-03-24T01:19:47Z libfud: I'm aiming more towards simulations
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2019-03-24T01:33:02Z pjb: Nowadays, you'd just use gnat.
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2019-03-24T01:38:59Z libfud: ooh
2019-03-24T01:40:37Z libfud: I wonder what destructuring looks like in ada
2019-03-24T01:41:09Z libfud: one of my favorite things about Rust is easy ADTs with enums and destructuring with pattern matching
2019-03-24T01:41:35Z libfud: if Ada has similar mechanisms I'm sold
2019-03-24T01:45:46Z pjb: It's more like Pascal.
2019-03-24T01:47:14Z libfud: variant records kind of look like what I'm looking for
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2019-03-24T01:47:57Z libfud: I'll have to put some time into learning the basics of the language
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2019-03-24T02:42:22Z aeth: libfud: Oh, in case I didn't directly address why I was writing a Scheme: By compiling Scheme->CL, I avoid a lot of the mismatch the typical Scheme->C (etc.) approaches get, allowing a much smaller, much faster implementation of Scheme than usual. Ideally, it should have no really large overhead over the host CL. This means it would have comparable-to-SBCL performance if hosted on SBCL.
2019-03-24T02:43:00Z aeth: In fact, it could actually be faster than naively written equivalent CL because CL is more dynamic than a Scheme implementation has to be, so I can make more assumptions.
2019-03-24T02:43:55Z johnjay: aeth: which system wins at speed, super saiyan stalin scheme or sbcl?
2019-03-24T02:45:06Z aeth: johnjay: Their approaches are pretty different. Stalin afaik did global program analysis for optimizations, which SBCL cannot do because it does optimizations on the file level at best because, again, CL has to be more dynamic than a Scheme has to be, based on the specified semantics.
2019-03-24T02:45:51Z aeth: Additionally, fast SBCL is essentially statically typed with all of the declarations you have to add. I'm not sure if Stalin has a type declaration system.
2019-03-24T02:46:53Z aeth: (Technically, I think you could do global optimizations in CL if you built enough tracking at the implementation level to see when things had to be recompiled... so you'd need to store who-calls-whom and if "whom" is recompiled, then you'd have to recompile "who". Technically, this could be useful for inline functions and macros, which currently just break things when you recompile them.)
2019-03-24T02:48:12Z aeth: (SBCL also has an off-by-default flag that makes it assume that function types never change on recompilation, which could improve things if enabled. It's disabled because it's not standards-conforming.)
2019-03-24T02:48:43Z johnjay: when you say compiling are you talking about a JIT
2019-03-24T02:49:12Z johnjay: i assume that's what the who-calls-whom thing meant
2019-03-24T02:49:21Z aeth: SBCL isn't JIT, but CL allows for runtime recompilation. It's a big part of its development process. In fact, SBCL in particular compiles where others interpret, including everything written at the REPL.
2019-03-24T02:49:39Z aeth: (The SBCL REPL just writes to a tmp file that gets compiled afaik.)
2019-03-24T02:49:44Z johnjay: i see
2019-03-24T02:50:34Z aeth: So you can just C-c C-c to recompile a function or macro in SLIME, or C-c C-k to recompile a function in SLIME. Technically, the standard only guarantees that file recompilation (C-c C-k) won't break things, though, so sometimes C-c C-c alone does mess things up.
2019-03-24T02:51:04Z aeth: I think this means that you could implement a JITed language that compiles to a non-JITed CL, though.
2019-03-24T02:51:30Z johnjay: i should probably actually read the Cl standard
2019-03-24T02:51:33Z johnjay: to get familiar with this stuff
2019-03-24T02:52:40Z johnjay: someone was telling me in #emacs to get more familiar with guile for example
2019-03-24T02:52:54Z johnjay: in the context of making an emacs-for-CL/emacs-for-scheme type thing
2019-03-24T02:53:10Z johnjay: and then i would understand why the benefit of having guile-emacs is tiny
2019-03-24T02:54:21Z aeth: The fatal flaw of every emacs-for-CL that I'm aware of is that it uses the host CL directly instead of an inferior-lisp like the GNU Emacs + SLIME workflow. You can easily get to a situation with a Lisp image where restarting is the easiest fix. And I restart before any git push just to make sure that I'm not calling any stale functions (e.g. old versions of inline functions, or calling functions that got renamed and so no longer exist in
2019-03-24T02:54:41Z johnjay: i have slime installed but don't understand it that well
2019-03-24T02:55:41Z johnjay: but why have an emacs-for-CL that just communicates with an SBCL instance?
2019-03-24T02:55:46Z johnjay: supposing you were using sbcl
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2019-03-24T02:55:52Z johnjay: just to restart easily?
2019-03-24T02:55:59Z aeth: SBCL is extremely fast.
2019-03-24T02:56:14Z aeth: Emacs Lisp has strange performance characteristics
2019-03-24T02:56:33Z aeth: SBCL is also very inspectable. Very easy to see what's going on and be sure of just about everything, including allocations and even the generated asm.
2019-03-24T02:57:46Z aeth: I think the idea of an Emacs-on-SBCL is that you wouldn't have any C (besides the C in the implementation, which for SBCL is just the GC) because of the additional performance over elisp.
2019-03-24T02:58:03Z aeth: Probably similar with an Emacs on a fast Scheme
2019-03-24T02:58:29Z libfud: aeth: ah, ok
2019-03-24T03:01:23Z ashawley: Edwin?
2019-03-24T03:01:46Z johnjay: ashawley: i think that's what it is yeah
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2019-03-24T03:03:24Z johnjay: aeth: performance was mainly what i was wondering
2019-03-24T03:03:24Z johnjay: faster startup and benchmarks from a different system. idk how you'd benchmark something like that at this stage though
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2019-03-24T03:04:58Z aeth: johnjay: It'd probably be about at least 3x slower (that's best case SBCL, not all Lisps) than C for the C parts, but much faster than the elisp for the Lisp parts. Probably a performance win for something like an Emacs where the latter, Lisp part should be a large part of the system.
2019-03-24T03:05:16Z aeth: If it's a JIT Lisp then startup might be worse, idk.
2019-03-24T03:05:24Z aeth: AOT Lisps would probably be comparable.
2019-03-24T03:05:50Z ashawley: The various Emacs clone efforts show that success isn't based on design, performance, or ergonomics.
2019-03-24T03:05:54Z ashawley: It's usually based on social factors.
2019-03-24T03:06:10Z ashawley: Worse is better...yada yada
2019-03-24T03:06:26Z johnjay: aeth: emacs startup is already bad afaik. quotemstr wrote some kind of new system related to that
2019-03-24T03:06:38Z johnjay: like it saves a memory image for each startup
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2019-03-24T03:07:13Z aeth: The problem is that while GNU Emacs is pretty bad (e.g. http://emacshorrors.com/ ), it's here now and it's often good enough, especially for writing code for a Lisp. Replacing a useful subset would be at least 2 years.
2019-03-24T03:07:24Z johnjay: ashawley: that may indeed be the fatal flaw. people dont'want to let go of their 10000 line .emacs file
2019-03-24T03:07:38Z aeth: And yeah the startup is pretty bad, and it seems to memory leak so it'd probably lose in RAM even to a heavyweight Lisp.
2019-03-24T03:08:08Z ashawley: lol, I don't think people adopt Emacs for their .emacs
2019-03-24T03:08:09Z johnjay: if i understand you then, it's not that sbclmacs would be super amazing, it would just not be terrible
2019-03-24T03:08:14Z johnjay: as regards memory and speed
2019-03-24T03:08:16Z aeth: johnjay: If you have a .emacs file that large in 2019 you're probably not keeping up with M-x package-list-packages etc. The package system probably purged 90% of my custom configuration.
2019-03-24T03:08:30Z johnjay: ah i see
2019-03-24T03:08:41Z aeth: And if it's meaningful, you should share it :-p
2019-03-24T03:08:44Z aeth: as a package :-p
2019-03-24T03:09:18Z johnjay: by "useful subset" do you mean the default .el that come with it
2019-03-24T03:09:32Z johnjay: or like a bunch of stuff from melpa?
2019-03-24T03:09:47Z aeth: johnjay: Well, rewriting a useful subset of Emacs in $foo is probably about the same as rewriting a useful subset of Emacs in C... GNU Emacs is so old that it has a lot of bad architecture for modern systems, so you'd just get a lot of benefits just from rewriting.
2019-03-24T03:10:05Z aeth: johnjay: Useful subset for CL would include magit, paredit, SLIME, etc.
2019-03-24T03:10:19Z aeth: For Scheme it would include magit, paredit, geiser, etc.
2019-03-24T03:10:33Z aeth: So certain packages, but not too many, only the ones absolutely necessary for a language's workflow
2019-03-24T03:10:55Z johnjay: right
2019-03-24T03:11:23Z johnjay: again, if i understand you, you're saying emacs has a lot of bad design decisions and flaws that would go away
2019-03-24T03:11:34Z johnjay: even if some parts would be slower it would be a net win?
2019-03-24T03:11:47Z johnjay: or "outdated" design decisions, let's say
2019-03-24T03:11:51Z aeth: In theory, yes.
2019-03-24T03:12:23Z aeth: And elisp has really fallen behind because languages used by lots of people for lots of uses (general purpose languages) get more development attention.
2019-03-24T03:12:31Z johnjay: as far as the .emacs goes, one guy said if there's no elisp interpreter then why bother with it
2019-03-24T03:12:55Z johnjay: idk if you can run elisp directly with a few tweaks
2019-03-24T03:14:07Z aeth: Iirc, the problem isn't running elisp it's running the Emacs API. Guile already has elisp compatability, and CL elisp compatability is near-trivial because elisp is very close in design to the legacy 1980s Lisps that Common Lisp was designed to replace.
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2019-03-24T03:14:51Z johnjay: right. lisp 1 and such
2019-03-24T03:14:56Z aeth: And I'm guessing a lot of the performance benefits go away when you're running Emacs API compatability.
2019-03-24T03:15:38Z aeth: I bet a lot of it is leaky abstractions, assuming dynamic scoping (which is much slower than lexical scoping), etc.
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2019-03-24T03:16:56Z aeth: And a lot of elisp (probably the vast majority) is written by people who don't know Lisps. The best-written elisp imo is for Common Lisp, Scheme, etc., modes. There are probably some rare elisp specialists who write good elisp, too, but I'm guessing most people are C, C++, Python, Ruby, JavaScript, etc., programmers first just trying to add support for C, C++, Python, Ruby, JavaScript, etc., into Emacs
2019-03-24T03:18:42Z johnjay: i've never really thought about performance of elisp code
2019-03-24T03:18:51Z johnjay: like there was this one function i was looking at
2019-03-24T03:19:06Z johnjay: i think it had an optional numeric argument n. and the default would be 1
2019-03-24T03:19:34Z johnjay: so it did something like (if n (expression with n as a parameter) (expression with like (1+ ...) )
2019-03-24T03:19:53Z johnjay: and the explanation was if n is ommitted most of the time it's more efficient
2019-03-24T03:20:33Z aeth: A problem here is that fast elisp is written with GNU Emacs performance in mind while elisp emulation might have different performance characteristics. Afaik, with elisp you want to use written-in-C built-ins as much as possible. With e.g. CL you're writing a lot more from scratch because of the fast implementations available, and the "built-ins" might be emulating GNU Emacs semantics and not be as fast as the idiomatic CL.
2019-03-24T03:25:08Z aeth: I'm not sure about Guile. It's the one they want to port GNU Emacs to because it's the official GNU scripting language, but it's not close to being the fastest Scheme. The performance benefits aren't going to be the same as porting to Stalin, Chez, SBCL, etc., and you probably couldn't rewrite all of the C in it.
2019-03-24T03:26:20Z johnjay: hmm yeah good point
2019-03-24T03:26:34Z johnjay: all the builtins like goto-char or forward-word would need to be in lisp
2019-03-24T03:27:19Z libfud: I doubt the maintainers of emacs have any interest in using something that isn't GNU or GNU sanctioned
2019-03-24T03:27:57Z johnjay: maybe i'm naive in that regard, but as a research project the interest to me would be a) concepts and language features, and b) performance
2019-03-24T03:28:14Z johnjay: being gnu official whatever doesn't seem that interesting
2019-03-24T03:28:27Z johnjay: esp when guile isn't even that mature
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2019-03-24T03:32:24Z aeth: libfud: GNU has two Common Lisps (CLISP, GCL) and three or four Schemes (Guile, MIT/GNU, Kawa, and probably at least one more).
2019-03-24T03:32:32Z aeth: Probably a few more Lisps (not counting elisp)
2019-03-24T03:32:40Z libfud: ah
2019-03-24T03:32:52Z aeth: The GNU Common Lisps aren't very good, though, imo.
2019-03-24T03:32:56Z libfud: isn't guile the favored one though? I thought they encouraged scripting in guile
2019-03-24T03:33:05Z aeth: Guile is their official scripting language.
2019-03-24T03:33:58Z johnjay: i'm not sure what that means
2019-03-24T03:34:09Z johnjay: is that like gimp has python scripting in it but it would be guile?
2019-03-24T03:34:42Z aeth: I thought GIMP had both?
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2019-03-24T03:35:39Z johnjay: i think it has some kind of scheme in it
2019-03-24T03:35:43Z johnjay: if it's guile my bad
2019-03-24T03:35:46Z aeth: It's probably Guile
2019-03-24T03:38:14Z aeth: it's not
2019-03-24T03:38:56Z aeth: It uses TinyScheme unless it changed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TinyScheme
2019-03-24T03:39:32Z aeth: I have never even heard of that before.
2019-03-24T03:39:38Z aeth: R5RS subset...
2019-03-24T03:39:44Z aeth: Must be painful to write.
2019-03-24T03:43:15Z johnjay: heh
2019-03-24T03:43:18Z johnjay: i wrote mine in python. :)
2019-03-24T03:43:55Z johnjay: are you a contributor to any of these projects aeth?
2019-03-24T03:44:02Z johnjay: it sounds like you have a lot of experience
2019-03-24T03:44:39Z aeth: 7 years CL/Scheme experience at this point.
2019-03-24T03:45:27Z johnjay: cool
2019-03-24T03:45:42Z johnjay: yeah it's just something everybody toys with, porting emacs to another lisp
2019-03-24T03:46:01Z johnjay: it's one of those things where if it's been tried a lot and failed maybe it's best left alone
2019-03-24T04:15:50Z Zipheir: Building a programmable text editor a la emacs is a fun project that any competent hacker could do. Rebuilding GNU Emacs, the pseudo-OS with 40 years of technical debt, is a project for the mad genius.
2019-03-24T04:17:55Z aeth: Zipheir: That's why I keep saying "reasonable subset". Only the Guile Emacs project wants more than that.
2019-03-24T04:18:53Z Zipheir: aeth: Right.
2019-03-24T04:20:35Z Zipheir: aeth: As we've said before, however, no one agrees on the definition of "reasonable".
2019-03-24T04:20:52Z aeth: Zipheir: whoever writes it is right
2019-03-24T04:21:50Z siraben: Maybe it would take much less work to rewrite a bytecode interpreter then bootstrap that compiling all Elisp to bytecode
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2019-03-24T06:49:40Z johnjay: Zipheir: do you have any recommendations for good projects to learn with?
2019-03-24T06:49:52Z johnjay: you had some great papers before
2019-03-24T06:50:28Z Zipheir: johnjay: Thanks!  I steal my paper recommendations only from the best.
2019-03-24T06:50:53Z johnjay: heh
2019-03-24T06:51:02Z Zipheir: johnjay: What kind of projects?
2019-03-24T06:51:11Z johnjay: something that would come after SICP
2019-03-24T06:51:18Z johnjay: but before writing-emacs-in-scheme-as-a-mad-genius
2019-03-24T06:51:31Z johnjay: i'm currently finishing an elisp book
2019-03-24T06:52:01Z Zipheir: johnjay: The final two exercises of SICP are great, massive projects.
2019-03-24T06:52:20Z johnjay: ah i see
2019-03-24T06:53:05Z Zipheir: (Namely, write a Scheme interpreter and compiler in C/"low-level" language of your choice.)
2019-03-24T06:53:17Z johnjay: that's a pretty massive project
2019-03-24T06:53:31Z johnjay: would explain the plethora of scheme interpreters though
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2019-03-24T06:54:28Z Zipheir: johnjay: It's not massive.  Check this series out: http://peter.michaux.ca/articles/scheme-from-scratch-introduction
2019-03-24T06:57:45Z Zipheir: johnjay: This is also an insanely fun idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/META_II  The original paper is linked at the bottom.  Implement that in Scheme and just enjoy it.
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2019-03-24T06:59:49Z johnjay: implement the Meta II language?
2019-03-24T06:59:57Z johnjay: heh ok
2019-03-24T07:00:06Z Zipheir: The virtual machine and assembler, sure.
2019-03-24T07:00:13Z johnjay: ah
2019-03-24T07:02:55Z Zipheir: siraben (who first mentioned it to me, so credit where credit is do) has got it working in Guile here: https://github.com/siraben/meta-II
2019-03-24T07:07:24Z siraben: johnjay:  monadic parsing is fun
2019-03-24T07:07:42Z Zipheir: Augh, credit where credit is *due, even.
2019-03-24T07:07:49Z johnjay: ah ok
2019-03-24T07:07:51Z zestymug: hi
2019-03-24T07:07:53Z siraben: SICP does not cover parsing at all, but it's very important if you want to implement a interpreter/compiler of any kind
2019-03-24T07:07:54Z siraben: https://github.com/siraben/monadic-parsing
2019-03-24T07:07:56Z johnjay: the wiki article was a ltitle sparse
2019-03-24T07:07:59Z johnjay: *little
2019-03-24T07:08:02Z siraben: That's just a quick sketch in scheme
2019-03-24T07:08:10Z siraben: johnjay:  the original META-II paper is the best resource for it
2019-03-24T07:08:39Z Zipheir: Yeah, read the paper. It's quite short.
2019-03-24T07:08:41Z siraben: The VM is quite straightforward to implement, much easier than the SICP register machien
2019-03-24T07:08:44Z siraben: machine*
2019-03-24T07:08:51Z johnjay: is META II in particular awesome or was it just an example of a system?
2019-03-24T07:08:53Z johnjay: ah ok
2019-03-24T07:09:17Z Zipheir: It's a compiler compiler, so by definition it is awesome.
2019-03-24T07:10:08Z johnjay: ah i see
2019-03-24T07:10:20Z johnjay: not a 'transpiler' though
2019-03-24T07:10:24Z johnjay: just a compcompiler
2019-03-24T07:17:23Z siraben: The idea is you feed in the syntax of your language and out comes your compiler in assembly
2019-03-24T07:17:27Z siraben: See the paper for more
2019-03-24T07:28:38Z johnjay: ah sorry i was messing with my browser
2019-03-24T07:28:44Z johnjay: yeah kind of like flex/bison right
2019-03-24T07:28:54Z johnjay: or that pypy thing someone linked before
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2019-03-24T07:48:52Z wasamasa: aeth: for the record, kawa isn't a gnu project
2019-03-24T07:49:01Z wasamasa: aeth: it's just hosted on their resources
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2019-03-24T08:20:00Z aeth: https://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
2019-03-24T08:20:03Z aeth: shouldn't it be nongnu.org?
2019-03-24T08:21:07Z wasamasa: nah, that would be for the ones categorically against gnu :P
2019-03-24T08:23:04Z wasamasa: maybe I'm wrong though and there's more to it because some of the java package names contain gnu as well
2019-03-24T08:24:42Z wasamasa: gnuplot is another fun case
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2019-03-24T12:43:47Z amz3: fwiw here is an introduction to scheme https://youtu.be/byofGyW2L10
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2019-03-24T15:47:03Z jcowan: pjb: I do in fact use atom? as a predicate in a tree library I'm writing, as it makes sense in that context as the opposite of a subtree.
2019-03-24T15:47:24Z jcowan: I define a tree as a non-empty list of things that are either trees or atoms.
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2019-03-24T15:53:39Z jcowan: () is a list, of course, but it's not a tree but is an atom: nevertheless, its use in trees is discouraged because it may confuse list-oriented predicates.
2019-03-24T15:54:34Z jcowan: As for a strict-truthy but dynamically typed language, a conditional expression whose value is neither #t nor #f would simply be a programming error, trapped at the REPL level or equivalent.
2019-03-24T15:56:04Z jcowan: My Maybe/Either library allows you to map (lossily) between Maybe objects, the Lisp truthiness convention (which never generates (just #f)), returning no values for Nothing, and returning two values, a payload and either #t or #f for Just or Nothing.
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2019-03-24T15:58:54Z pjb: yep.
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2019-03-24T16:11:45Z jcowan: aeth: I think it's very misleading to talk of "porting Emacs to Guile".  The point of Guilemacs is to replace the native Emacs Elisp with Guile Elisp, which permits (but does *not* require) the use of other Guile languages on an equal footing with Elisp.
2019-03-24T16:12:20Z jcowan: The "porting" expression sounds like it involves translating or reimplementing all the Elisp into Guile Scheme, which is not at all the proposal.
2019-03-24T16:13:42Z jcowan: Historically, there have been five objections to Guilemacs:  (a) too big (b) too slow (c) too buggy (d) may fragment the Emacs community (e) we hate change.
2019-03-24T16:13:57Z jcowan: I think (abc) are dealt with, leaving (de) beyond the reach of mere technologists.
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2019-03-24T17:54:13Z daviid: wasamasa: fwiw, kawa is an official GNU s/w
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2019-03-24T18:10:04Z adu: how do I write a character literal in chibi-scheme?
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2019-03-24T18:31:44Z jcowan: #\f or #\newline
2019-03-24T18:31:47Z jcowan: (all Schemes)
2019-03-24T18:31:55Z jcowan: adu: ^^
2019-03-24T18:32:09Z adu: I'm a dumb
2019-03-24T18:32:21Z adu: thanks
2019-03-24T18:32:28Z adu: I was doing #f
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2019-03-24T18:48:22Z johnjay: jcowan: you mean guilemacs would be too slow and buggy? or guile is slow and buggy?
2019-03-24T18:48:48Z jcowan: The latter, from which the former *may* follow.
2019-03-24T18:49:07Z jcowan: However, Guile is no longer either slow or buggy, although the Elisp implementation is not as optimized as it might be.
2019-03-24T18:49:45Z jcowan: more precisely: Guile was historically slow but this is now fixed:  Guile Elisp was historically buggy but this is now fixed.
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2019-03-24T18:52:07Z jcowan: Indeed, since Guile has a JIT but Emacs Elisp does not, Guilemacs should in principle be faster when running computationally heavy operations (which of course most Emacs operations aren't)
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2019-03-24T18:58:19Z Zipheir: They implemented Elisp within Guile, wat?
2019-03-24T18:58:26Z johnjay: Zipheir: apparently
2019-03-24T18:58:33Z jcowan: hmm, apparently there is a libjit JIT for Emacs Elisp since August, but it is not yet part of any Emacs release
2019-03-24T18:58:47Z johnjay: i didn't even know there was a libjit
2019-03-24T18:59:12Z jcowan: It has been subject to the same kinds of complaints as Guilemacs, such as "If we can't JIT on all platforms [and we can't] we shouldn't JIT on any because that makes performance unpredictable."
2019-03-24T18:59:17Z Zipheir: That's like emulating a Model A Ford with a Bugatti Veyron.
2019-03-24T19:00:01Z johnjay: jcowan: eh what now
2019-03-24T19:00:25Z jcowan: Exactly.
2019-03-24T19:00:34Z jcowan: It's really reason (e), we hate change.
2019-03-24T19:01:14Z Zipheir: Doesn't Guile have a portable JIT?
2019-03-24T19:01:17Z jcowan: libjit is really a nice clean design, though improving the implementation is stalled because not enough hackers.
2019-03-24T19:03:16Z Duns_Scrotus: What platforms can they not jit on
2019-03-24T19:04:03Z jcowan: Guile uses GNU Lightning, which support (last time I looked) SPARC32, x86, x86_64, MIPS, ARM, Itanium, HPPA and 32-bit PowerPC.  No z360 or Vax.
2019-03-24T19:04:49Z Zipheir: I can't believe Guilemacs doesn't just use Scheme for editor programming.  We hate change, indeed.
2019-03-24T19:05:19Z jcowan: No, that's a sound decision IMO.  Translating all that vast amount of Elisp is *much* harder than adding Elisp support to Guile.
2019-03-24T19:05:54Z jcowan: Indeed, the efforts are probably equivalent.  Also, there are many brains that hold Elisp but not Scheme that would need retraining.
2019-03-24T19:06:00Z Zipheir: True, but it would kill the entropy cancer of decades of crufty elisp.
2019-03-24T19:08:19Z Zipheir: Switching to Scheme and dumping all the Elisp spaghetti would be getting two birds with one stone, IMHO.
2019-03-24T19:08:59Z rain1: i suppose we have edwin !
2019-03-24T19:09:34Z Zipheir: Indeed.
2019-03-24T19:09:53Z ecraven: dumping all the elisp basically removes any reason to actually *use* it :P
2019-03-24T19:10:28Z Zipheir: For some, I suppose.  Do you want a programmable text editor or an operating system?
2019-03-24T19:11:07Z aeth: ecraven: Unless you rewrite it piece by piece, which I guess apparently Guilemacs is *not* going to do
2019-03-24T19:11:25Z ecraven: aeth: there is no way to actually do that, it's much too much
2019-03-24T19:11:48Z aeth: If only there was a language syntactically and semantically closer to elisp...
2019-03-24T19:11:57Z Zipheir: Hah
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2019-03-24T19:12:08Z Zipheir: Emacs is too big to fail.
2019-03-24T19:12:21Z ecraven: sloccount says my .emacs.d/elpa directory has 639k lines.. that's *only* elpa/melpa code, not even emacs proper
2019-03-24T19:12:42Z ecraven: sloccount guesses 176 man-years for that.. not something you can rewrite easily
2019-03-24T19:13:09Z ecraven: of course, if I were a billionaire, I might sponsor it just for fun.. but with that attitude, I'd never *be* a billionaire :-/
2019-03-24T19:13:18Z Zipheir: But how much of that is just cruft?
2019-03-24T19:13:30Z amz3: wasamasa:
2019-03-24T19:13:32Z amz3: sorry
2019-03-24T19:13:34Z ecraven: almost nothing, I regularly delete that directory and re-pull everything
2019-03-24T19:14:04Z Zipheir: Cruft as in garbage code.
2019-03-24T19:14:05Z amz3: seems like javascript story
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2019-03-24T19:14:48Z Zipheir: With 639k lines you could probably implement ed 639 times...
2019-03-24T19:15:22Z ecraven: ah, but I want a lisp machine, not ed
2019-03-24T19:15:49Z ecraven: of course, if there were an *actual* lisp / scheme machine I could use, I might not need emacs
2019-03-24T19:16:46Z Zipheir: Yeah, emacs-the-lisp-machine is not going anywhere.  Emacs the text editor can be replaced.
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2019-03-24T19:17:43Z ecraven: Zipheir: to me, there is no difference between those two
2019-03-24T19:17:47Z ecraven: that is entirely the point, imho
2019-03-24T19:19:35Z Zipheir: I wonder if Emacs, as a 'good enough' lisp machine, has retarded the development of new lisp-based OSs.
2019-03-24T19:20:04Z ecraven: I've wondered that too... but without emacs, I don't think there'd be *any* easily-accessible lisp-based OS
2019-03-24T19:20:16Z ecraven: so it's not a question of either-or, but rather of whether-or-not
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2019-03-24T19:22:32Z Zipheir: It does seem that much of what Emacs does would be better handled at the system level, rather than trying to build a lisp userspace on top of POSIX machinery.
2019-03-24T19:22:49Z wasamasa: I'm not sure what that's supposed to say
2019-03-24T19:22:58Z Zipheir: scsh had quite an insight, there, although it was supposed to be just the beginning.
2019-03-24T19:23:07Z wasamasa: is that some funny way of claiming guilemacs is doing things right?
2019-03-24T19:24:49Z Zipheir: That wasn't my intention.  All I really know about Guilemacs is that they're still using Elisp, so...
2019-03-24T19:24:51Z amz3: Zipheir: +1 emacs can be replaced
2019-03-24T19:25:29Z wasamasa: they only replaced eval in the C portions
2019-03-24T19:25:32Z wasamasa: the rest stayed the same
2019-03-24T19:25:40Z wasamasa: that includes the system interface
2019-03-24T19:25:50Z wasamasa: what these CL proponents for example want is to get rid of the C parts
2019-03-24T19:26:02Z ecraven: unexec!
2019-03-24T19:26:09Z wasamasa: well, not really needed
2019-03-24T19:26:13Z wasamasa: just dump to an image
2019-03-24T19:26:15Z ecraven: there were intentions of getting rid of that, right?
2019-03-24T19:26:19Z wasamasa: there's pdumper now
2019-03-24T19:26:32Z wasamasa: it's not perfect, but reasonably fast and works for the initial image
2019-03-24T19:26:50Z wasamasa: dumping a secondary image is where things get harder, some people report it's broken
2019-03-24T19:28:45Z aeth: wasamasa: the faster the scripting language, the less necessary the C portions become.
2019-03-24T19:29:01Z pjb: I have a plan to write a C compiler targetting CL, so that I may compile GNU emacs and run it in a common lisp image.
2019-03-24T19:29:10Z Zipheir: I'd really like to see a fresh take on the core idea of emacs.  acme was an example of that, as seen from a UNIX perspective.
2019-03-24T19:29:50Z ecraven: Zipheir: pray tell, what *is* the core idea of emacs?
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2019-03-24T19:30:09Z weinholt: pjb, have you seen https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis ?
2019-03-24T19:30:16Z wasamasa: ecraven: a user-servicable editor, duh
2019-03-24T19:30:16Z pjb: The problem is all the third party emacs lisp stuff we love to use (org-mode, slime, etc), and that we need to support. So emacs-lisp is there to stay, and therefore we need the GNU emacs maintainers. Rewriting emacs in CL(done) or in scheme (done) doesn't help: the GNU emacs maintainers are C programmers.
2019-03-24T19:30:27Z pjb: weinholt: it's not a C compiler.
2019-03-24T19:30:52Z Zipheir: ecraven: IMHO: programmability. _Deep_ programmability, where the programmer has access to as much of the editor as is useful.
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2019-03-24T19:31:35Z ecraven: Zipheir: that is definitely not how I see emacs. to me, it is a lisp machine, plain and simple
2019-03-24T19:31:45Z Zipheir: ecraven: Fair enough.
2019-03-24T19:31:54Z ecraven: an *editor* wouldn't be able to run a window manager, an email client, irc client, whatever
2019-03-24T19:31:58Z pjb: And with a true C compiler targetting CL, we can compile in C libraries, instead of using FFI! :-)
2019-03-24T19:32:12Z aeth: ecraven: but eamcs does all that stuff poorly... it's basically a cheap knockoff of a lisp machine
2019-03-24T19:32:25Z pjb: ecraven: we don't run the window manager, the email client hte irc client, the watever in the emacs editor. We run them on the emacs lisp machine.
2019-03-24T19:32:38Z ecraven: aeth: I wouldn't quite say that, it doesn't do things perfectly, but it's fine enough
2019-03-24T19:33:07Z ecraven: pjb: yes, but rewriting the emacs *editor* brings me *nothing*. I wouldn't use that, because I use the emacs *lisp machine* (for the reason that it is a lisp machine).
2019-03-24T19:33:32Z pjb: ecraven: hence the C->CL compiler. Then we compile emacs to run on the CL machine.
2019-03-24T19:33:39Z Zipheir: aeth: A knockoff of an archaic lisp machine, given the language.
2019-03-24T19:33:52Z pjb: Of which you have a wide range of choice, and most of them are better than the emacs lisp machine.
2019-03-24T19:33:56Z ecraven: pjb: sounds like a maintenance nightmare :P
2019-03-24T19:34:18Z pjb: ecraven: nope. Just a C compiler.  The maintenance is done by the GNU emacs people.
2019-03-24T19:34:27Z pjb: It's the best practical solution
2019-03-24T19:34:48Z ecraven: what does that bring you? you still need to go through a el->C->CL stack for debugging, right?
2019-03-24T19:35:10Z aeth: ecraven: the problem is that Emacs only has one tool: a text buffer. (well, it does a few more things by now, sort of)
2019-03-24T19:35:11Z wasamasa: sounds like a nightmare to me
2019-03-24T19:35:23Z wasamasa: tom tromey wrote el compilador, an elisp->C compiler
2019-03-24T19:35:36Z wasamasa: the idea is to rewrite the C parts in elisp and use that compiler on them
2019-03-24T19:35:41Z ecraven: aeth: well, to be fair, the text buffer can do a lot of non-text things
2019-03-24T19:36:07Z pjb: aeth: wrong. emacs has also vectors.  And strings.  And hash-tables.  And symbols.  Several tools.
2019-03-24T19:36:11Z aeth: I mean, yes, lots of things can be used outside of their intended purpose, which is how you get Emacs or web browsers.
2019-03-24T19:36:23Z aeth: pjb: I mean one GUI tool.
2019-03-24T19:36:41Z ecraven: aeth: have you ever used or watched videos about Open Genera?
2019-03-24T19:37:05Z ecraven: I don't care if my irc window is a text buffer or not, as long as I can use the exact same *commands* to interact with it
2019-03-24T19:37:16Z ecraven: to me, *that* is one of the powers of the lisp machines
2019-03-24T19:37:20Z aeth: pjb: e.g. I think it does its PDF displaying but rendering each page as an image, which is then embedded in a text buffer because of course it can embed an image into the text buffer (probably as a "character" or something).
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2019-03-24T19:37:32Z aeth: s/displaying but/displaying by/
2019-03-24T19:37:35Z pjb: aeth: granted.
2019-03-24T19:38:17Z aeth: A "proper" Emacs would probably just have a separate PDF reader that could be embedded as a pane, or even launched as a separate application.
2019-03-24T19:39:12Z ecraven: aeth: I agree in principle, however I want many of the "normal" emacs commands to work in that pane / application
2019-03-24T19:39:19Z ecraven: incremental search, anzu mode, whatever
2019-03-24T19:39:40Z jcowan: pjb: What's wrong with vacietis?
2019-03-24T19:39:50Z jcowan: (I admit I've never used it)
2019-03-24T19:40:09Z pjb: aeth: 1- GNU emacs 25 has a plug-in system: you can implement a graphic window using it, or a FFI. 2- GNU emacs has network, so you can do X11.
2019-03-24T19:40:20Z pjb: jcowan: it's a kludge, not a C compiler.
2019-03-24T19:40:38Z wasamasa: people did the second already with xcb bindings
2019-03-24T19:40:43Z aeth: ecraven: right, it would have to be written from scratch, too. It can't just use an existing embed-an-application scheme or you'd just get something like M-x term where keyboard navigation becomes painful.
2019-03-24T19:40:45Z pjb: a nice and funny kludge, but you cannot compile random C sources.
2019-03-24T19:40:48Z wasamasa: or rather, auto-generated xcb code
2019-03-24T19:41:14Z pjb: Actually, porting clx to emacs should have been done a long time ago...
2019-03-24T19:41:31Z ecraven: xelb :P
2019-03-24T19:41:40Z johnjay: clx can be ported?  whoa
2019-03-24T19:41:49Z aeth: pjb: see the point I said to ecraven. You can embed applications within Emacs trivially via M-x term. Sure, they're terminal applications, but you really do see the issues even there.
2019-03-24T19:42:05Z jcowan: gcc/clang can't compile random C sources either.
2019-03-24T19:42:13Z aeth: You'd ideally want something that plays nicer with the outer emacs, so you'd have to write something that's designed to be used in this context.
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2019-03-24T19:48:56Z jcowan: The trouble is that most people don't write standard C, they write gcc C, and that's a moving target that gets closer to the letter of standard C all the time, making things that used to work not work any more in the name of faster compiling and faster execution.
2019-03-24T19:50:25Z Zipheir: Ugh, gcc C.  Also, glib C.
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2019-03-24T19:52:46Z aeth: jcowan: Only on some platforms. And that's the problem with C (and C++). Cross-platform's already hard, but each platform also has its own favored C-and-C++ compiler.
2019-03-24T19:54:07Z Zipheir: It's the fault of compiler programmers who add non-standard extensions and the programmers who use them.
2019-03-24T19:54:31Z aeth: Zipheir: This is #scheme
2019-03-24T19:54:40Z aeth: Zipheir: Scheme has it worse.
2019-03-24T19:55:04Z aeth: In one sense, though, it's better because there's no platform-expectation of a certain Scheme, though.
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2019-03-24T19:55:22Z Zipheir: aeth: True, but C standards have traditionally been quite extensive compared to Scheme reports.
2019-03-24T19:55:51Z Zipheir: aeth: You can indeed write standard C, it's just that people don't because we all use this amazing one compiler, right?
2019-03-24T19:56:36Z Zipheir: (Or, for some people, "only splitters who do not acknowledge the glory of GNU would use something other than gcc/glibc")
2019-03-24T19:56:36Z jcowan: Zipheir: No, it's super hard to write conforming standard C, and most people don't.
2019-03-24T19:57:06Z Zipheir: Hmm.
2019-03-24T19:58:06Z aeth: Zipheir: GNU wants one big GNU+(A)GPL ecosystem, and is often afraid that any attempt at interoperability might mean that you want to write proprietary software.
2019-03-24T19:58:19Z Zipheir: Fair enough.  It doesn't help that the standard isn't freely available and that's it's horribly written.
2019-03-24T19:59:19Z Zipheir: aeth: Yeah, sometimes it seems that way, to be sure.
2019-03-24T20:01:13Z Zipheir: OK, you can write something approaching ISO C to the extent that most current C compilers (even tcc) can compile it.  If you just dump in lots of GCC extensions, portability isn't even a remote possibility.
2019-03-24T20:01:47Z aeth: C compilers are actually pretty good these days, especially if you add in a bunch of extra warnings (why -Wall isn't actually all warnings, idk)
2019-03-24T20:02:41Z aeth: You can write meaningful C that compiles on multiple compilers a lot more easily now than pre-Clang. Clang greatly improved GCC through competition.
2019-03-24T20:03:03Z jcowan: All those things are second order effects.
2019-03-24T20:04:48Z jcowan: Consider {printf("about to call foo"); foo()}, where foo is a routine that may do something like divide by zero.  What can you conclude if the message is not printed?  Did the program crash before or after calling foo()?
2019-03-24T20:04:57Z pjb: johnjay: what are you doing here?
2019-03-24T20:05:01Z aeth: What really makes me afraid of C is that pretty much anything non-trivial that I write fails valgrind (memory leaks, invalid frees, out of bounds, etc.). What can you do if the application can't use valgrind, like a kernel or (I'm guessing) a very elaborate graphical application?
2019-03-24T20:05:21Z pjb: johnjay: haven't you been told about Turing Universal Machines?
2019-03-24T20:05:35Z johnjay: i've been told about the turing tar pit
2019-03-24T20:05:40Z Zipheir: jcowan: It's implementation-dependent, IIRC.
2019-03-24T20:05:49Z jcowan: The answer is, as one might guess, nothing. The division by zero may be legally hoisted before the call to printf.
2019-03-24T20:05:50Z johnjay: aka we can all code in brain frak
2019-03-24T20:05:56Z Zipheir: Right.
2019-03-24T20:06:00Z pjb: johnjay: as long as the resources needed don't exceed this universe… :-)
2019-03-24T20:08:05Z aeth: jcowan: Yes, that's absolutely a problem. C compilers overoptimize. If they're at max optimizations, you can't rely on it to do anything.
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2019-03-24T20:09:19Z Zipheir: C is a really awful language.
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2019-03-24T20:09:55Z zestymug: Zipheir, agreed
2019-03-24T20:10:03Z zestymug: but you know
2019-03-24T20:10:16Z zestymug: due to history it occupies a space between high level language and machine languages
2019-03-24T20:10:26Z wasamasa: Zipheir: try x86 assembly for a while
2019-03-24T20:10:28Z zestymug: it's not expressive yet you can't do the same things you can with assembly
2019-03-24T20:10:37Z Zipheir: zestymug: Actually, it's very much a high-level language.
2019-03-24T20:10:47Z zestymug: not for the pdp-11
2019-03-24T20:10:48Z jcowan: Chicken's old strategy for compiling variadic procedures broke after gcc tightened the rules
2019-03-24T20:11:01Z Zipheir: zestymug: Try writing something with different procedure-call semantics than C's in C.
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2019-03-24T20:12:01Z Zipheir: zestymug: Right, exactly.  The 'C is portable assembly' stuff is just folklore.
2019-03-24T20:13:18Z zestymug: the pdp-11 is trash
2019-03-24T20:14:00Z Zipheir: :(
2019-03-24T20:14:38Z zestymug: Zipheir, C lacks any reasonable facilities for metaprogramming
2019-03-24T20:14:52Z zestymug: pattern matching, algebraic sum types and expressing thoughts in terms of category theory
2019-03-24T20:15:30Z wasamasa: take a look at myrddin for that
2019-03-24T20:15:38Z wasamasa: feels very much like C, but with SML features
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2019-03-24T20:18:55Z zestymug: wasamasa, i'm merely pointing out deficiencies in C
2019-03-24T20:19:07Z zestymug: C is powerless compared to something like scheme
2019-03-24T20:19:21Z wasamasa: you can say the same about scheme :D
2019-03-24T20:19:30Z zestymug: how?
2019-03-24T20:19:44Z zestymug: you can bend scheme to your will in a way that's intractable for C
2019-03-24T20:20:18Z wasamasa: yeah and it goes the other way around
2019-03-24T20:20:29Z wasamasa: you'll never have the fun of messing around with clever memory management strategies
2019-03-24T20:21:07Z jcowan: Here's another example:  You want to allocate a memory block to hold a string of length size, so you write malloc(size+1).  Then someone tries to pass a size of MAX_INT, and malloc dies.  So you insert a safety check to return NULL if size < size + 1.
2019-03-24T20:21:10Z wasamasa: or actually knowing what will allocate heap memory and what not
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2019-03-24T20:21:49Z jcowan: But alas, MAX_INT + 1 is not the smallest possible integer, it is UB.  So the compiler discards your careful check.
2019-03-24T20:22:21Z zestymug: wasamasa, and why shouldn't the compiler do that for me?
2019-03-24T20:22:35Z zestymug: memory management is inherently less rich and intelligent of a subject
2019-03-24T20:22:37Z wasamasa: the joke is that you can't know whether it will or won't
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2019-03-24T20:22:53Z wasamasa: this is a funny thing to say about a family of languages spawning that subject
2019-03-24T20:22:54Z zestymug: you can tell a compiler to do memory management stuff for you but you can't tell it to build programs
2019-03-24T20:23:00Z zestymug: to design new algorithms
2019-03-24T20:23:43Z Zipheir: Yes, the unsafeness of malloc() is a wonderful example of C's suckiness.
2019-03-24T20:24:15Z jcowan: The problem is that you can't even *fix* its unsafeness.
2019-03-24T20:24:44Z pjb: Zipheir: yes, you can!
2019-03-24T20:24:49Z aeth: C's a high level language (otherwise you'd only have stuff like uint32_t and not high level abstractions like unsigned long long int). What maeks C "low level" is that you can break the type system and say "hey this double is now a uint64_t" or even "this array of unsigned chars is now an array of uint64_t" or even "this array now starts past where I said it would start" (or even "this array now ends past where I said it would end")
2019-03-24T20:25:01Z pjb: (defun malloc (size) (make-array size :element-type 'byte :initial-element 0))
2019-03-24T20:25:05Z pjb: problem solved.
2019-03-24T20:25:08Z rain1: there is a good project my microsoft https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/uploads/prod/2018/09/checkedc-secdev2018-preprint.pdf
2019-03-24T20:25:11Z jcowan: The compiler reasons as follows:  if size is not MAXINT, then x < x +1 is always false; if it is, anything can happen.  So the compiler does not bother to compile the test at all.
2019-03-24T20:25:13Z zestymug: C is a disease of a language
2019-03-24T20:25:23Z pjb: Also: (defstruct pointer array offset)
2019-03-24T20:25:35Z zestymug: You could graduate from a top CS program not having written C in your life
2019-03-24T20:25:42Z zestymug: And I'm happy with this state
2019-03-24T20:25:49Z pjb: Using random pointers in C is an implementation defined extension, it's not in the C standard.
2019-03-24T20:26:02Z jcowan: I daresay you could graduate without ever having written any program.
2019-03-24T20:26:14Z zestymug: Not honestly
2019-03-24T20:26:23Z Zipheir: jcowan: IIRC some code uses a long long to try to test for OOB values before calling malloc()
2019-03-24T20:26:27Z zestymug: You write plenty of programs in intro classes
2019-03-24T20:26:29Z jcowan shrugs, never having taken a CS clas
2019-03-24T20:26:39Z aeth: zestymug: What about C++? C++ inherits every flaw that C has, and then bolts about 5 other languages on top of it, including a template language that makes compilation times go from seconds to many, many minutes.
2019-03-24T20:26:57Z zestymug: STL is the nicer part of C
2019-03-24T20:27:00Z zestymug: *C++
2019-03-24T20:27:12Z pjb: templates are inadvertantly turing complete.  Like x86 MMU…
2019-03-24T20:27:49Z zestymug: aeth, C++ is trash also
2019-03-24T20:27:52Z zestymug: Rust is very nice
2019-03-24T20:27:59Z Zipheir: Bwahahah
2019-03-24T20:28:03Z zestymug: And I'm happy people are using it to supplant C/C++
2019-03-24T20:28:14Z wasamasa: rust is basically C++ though
2019-03-24T20:28:23Z jcowan: in a world in which many people have gotten Ph.D.'s in linguistics without learning any language other than the language of instruction (and let's say that is their native language), nothing would surprise me.
2019-03-24T20:29:05Z wasamasa: complicated, ugly syntax, takes its time to compile, will never learn how to ABI
2019-03-24T20:29:08Z ecraven: is there any Scheme that supports explicit memory management in addition to GC? something like "please allocate a vector of 256 instances of this record type, and keep them consecutive in memory, for better cache behaviour"?
2019-03-24T20:29:21Z jcowan: Chicken and Guile
2019-03-24T20:29:28Z ecraven: nice, thanks
2019-03-24T20:29:50Z wasamasa: CHICKEN is pretty basic in this regard though and you eventually end up with writing C in scheme (or just embed the C inline)
2019-03-24T20:29:50Z rain1: https://github.com/carp-lang/Carp
2019-03-24T20:30:01Z wasamasa: carp is closer to this ideal
2019-03-24T20:30:03Z ecraven: so guile, essentially
2019-03-24T20:30:13Z ecraven: jcowan: what's the keywords to look for?
2019-03-24T20:30:14Z wasamasa: with things such as lists being a compile-time only construct necessary for macros
2019-03-24T20:30:20Z jcowan: I'm not sure about treating them as instances of a record type, though, as typically you don't want pointers to managed memory inside unmanaged memory
2019-03-24T20:30:31Z wasamasa: instead you use vectors at run-time
2019-03-24T20:30:41Z ecraven: well, I want a struct[], that can be accessed efficiently in Scheme ;)
2019-03-24T20:30:59Z ecraven: cache locality in inner loops, that sort of thing
2019-03-24T20:31:29Z aeth: ecraven: Usually you do memory management in libraries or features designed to help with the CFFI.
2019-03-24T20:32:14Z jcowan: If that's all you want, than TaylanUB's library is what you want: it comes in Guile (with pointers) and R7RS (without pointers) flavors.
2019-03-24T20:32:40Z jcowan: Guile doesn't expose low-level memory mgmt to Scheme, whereas Chicken does, but that's contingent.
2019-03-24T20:33:08Z jcowan: https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-bytestructures
2019-03-24T20:33:39Z jcowan: But still no pointers from unmanaged memory to managed memory, only at most pointers to unmanaged from unmanaged.
2019-03-24T20:34:06Z ecraven: that's fine... CS is just plain hard, free lunch would indeed be nice :-/
2019-03-24T20:35:25Z aeth: wasamasa: That sounds a lot like how I write my real-time CL
2019-03-24T20:35:58Z wasamasa: aeth: yeah, I did the same with elisp and the chip8 emulator
2019-03-24T20:36:10Z aeth: Except I don't care about having a GC or not (simply preallocate literally everything) and I don't have confusing syntax like [] and &(
2019-03-24T20:36:12Z zestymug: jcowan, do you think linguistics is about human languages?
2019-03-24T20:36:12Z aeth: :-P
2019-03-24T20:36:26Z zestymug: or that one would be required to learn a language other than their own to effectively study it?
2019-03-24T20:36:36Z zestymug: that's a little silly
2019-03-24T20:36:49Z zestymug: you know noam chomsky only speaks english
2019-03-24T20:37:07Z jcowan: zestymug: Parts of it are, and Chomsky certainly speaks Hebrew, though he may be rusty.
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2019-03-24T20:37:27Z zestymug: it's like saying mathematics is about counting livestock
2019-03-24T20:37:29Z jcowan: Chomskyites are very far from being the whole of the subject, and never were outside the US
2019-03-24T20:37:49Z ecraven: how can you talk about colour if you have only ever seen one?
2019-03-24T20:38:16Z jcowan: It depends on what you want to know about it.
2019-03-24T20:38:35Z zestymug: linguistics is about human language like cell biology is about microscopes
2019-03-24T20:39:23Z zestymug: ecraven, do you think a blind person can learn optics?
2019-03-24T20:39:39Z zestymug: how about a colorblind person?
2019-03-24T20:39:53Z ecraven: that probably depends on what you mean exactly by "optics"
2019-03-24T20:40:08Z jcowan: In particular, typology and framework-free description are *definitely* not Chomskyite, and of course some Chomskyites would claim they are not linguistics, which is like an algebraist claiming that analysis not mathematics.
2019-03-24T20:40:14Z zestymug: no it doesn't, because the inability to directly perceive the object of study does not preclude its study
2019-03-24T20:40:43Z zestymug: i've never been to africa and dug out hominids, yet i can be quite certain humans originated in africa?
2019-03-24T20:40:46Z jcowan: google "Mary the blind color scientist" for much hooraw on this subject
2019-03-24T20:41:00Z ecraven: zestymug: you cannot be quite certain, you can only believe others
2019-03-24T20:41:13Z zestymug: ecraven, that's rich
2019-03-24T20:41:14Z jcowan: zestymug: You are scrambling together completely unrelated cases.
2019-03-24T20:41:30Z ecraven: zestymug: just my opinion, feel free to think completely differently ;)
2019-03-24T20:41:48Z jcowan: A standard heuristic much used by historical linguists would show that Latin originated on Corsica.
2019-03-24T20:42:15Z jcowan: (also by biologists: the scientific parts of linguistics have many analogies to evolutionary biology, no accident)
2019-03-24T20:42:25Z jcowan: Fortunately we know it didn't.
2019-03-24T20:42:38Z zestymug: chomsky founded an entire academic field
2019-03-24T20:42:49Z zestymug: a precise mathematical description of language
2019-03-24T20:43:19Z zestymug: jcowan, well, depending on how far you go, latin originated somewhere in russia on the kurgan steppe
2019-03-24T20:43:21Z jcowan: Similarly, the reconstructability of a Proto-Algonquian word for "whisky" does not show that whisky was known by Proto-Algonquian speakers 2500-3000 years ago
2019-03-24T20:43:33Z jcowan: I mean Classical Latin, of course.
2019-03-24T20:43:36Z zestymug: ah
2019-03-24T20:43:50Z zestymug: well it must be some creole between proto italic and etruscan
2019-03-24T20:44:11Z jcowan: And no, Chomsky didn't found an entire academic field, nor are Chomskyite formalisms anything a mathematician would call a formal theory.
2019-03-24T20:44:31Z zestymug: then why are his descriptions so useful in theoretical computer science
2019-03-24T20:44:39Z wasamasa: aeth: what I dislike about it is how easy it is to mess up with accidentally consing
2019-03-24T20:45:11Z jcowan: It's only computer scientists who care about Chomsky type [0-3] grammars now.  Even Chomskyite linguists no longer care about all that.
2019-03-24T20:46:02Z jcowan: (Sorry, everyone else, for all this offtopicness.)
2019-03-24T20:47:39Z zestymug: So it's not unuseful
2019-03-24T20:47:43Z zestymug: It's a matter of semantics
2019-03-24T20:47:52Z zestymug: Is it theoretical computer science, or linguistics, or mathematics
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2019-03-24T20:51:29Z jcowan: humma
2019-03-24T20:55:11Z Zipheir: mu.
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2019-03-24T21:04:49Z jcowan: 无
2019-03-24T21:05:27Z r1b quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2019-03-24T21:05:36Z jcowan: or 無 if you prefer traditional characters
2019-03-24T21:09:30Z ng0 quit (Quit: Alexa, when is the end of world?)
2019-03-24T21:09:43Z amz3: brave world
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2019-03-24T21:15:21Z johnjay: chomsky type grammars don't matter now?
2019-03-24T21:15:24Z johnjay: ah
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2019-03-24T21:23:43Z aeth: wasamasa: I mean, yeah, write like this in a Lisp and you have to be careful for accidental consing. Still easier than avoiding memory leaks and out of bounds in C-style languages, though.
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2019-03-24T21:26:02Z wasamasa: I found it hard to find the sources for accidental consing
2019-03-24T21:26:07Z aeth: C++ is actually designed for use cases like this so it should be the ideal language, but it's far from it because of all of the unsafety it inherits from C
2019-03-24T21:26:17Z wasamasa: finding out of bounds can be done with asan, finding memory leaks with valgrind
2019-03-24T21:27:19Z aeth: Afaik, if you use a custom allocator, then using valgrind means #ifdefing and abstracting code so valgrind sees malloc when you're running valgrind. (I hope your allocator doesn't have bugs.)
2019-03-24T21:27:34Z wasamasa: I'm not nearly close enough to that stage
2019-03-24T21:27:40Z aeth: Valgrind also only goes through the executed code paths, so you need a thorough test program.
2019-03-24T21:27:45Z wasamasa: yup
2019-03-24T21:27:55Z wasamasa: beats not having any tooling of that kind
2019-03-24T21:28:29Z aeth: SBCL has good allocation profiling. Nothing else in Lisps come close afaik.
2019-03-24T21:28:45Z aeth: It's very easy to find a consing source.
2019-03-24T21:28:54Z aeth: Probably through 5 different ways.
2019-03-24T21:30:33Z aeth: The Scheme solution for this is probably... write your own Scheme that does what you want it to do, unfortunately.
2019-03-24T21:36:41Z rain1: lol
2019-03-24T21:36:47Z rain1: acurate
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2019-03-24T23:34:15Z buhman: http://paste.debian.net/1074513/ I'm looking to improve my scheme/programming ability. Roughly I have a list of boxed strings + other stuff, and I want to collect+combine consecutive strings. I implemented this using a fold, but I think my implementation isn't that good.
2019-03-24T23:34:30Z buhman: expected input/output are on line 24/32
2019-03-24T23:34:32Z buhman: any suggestions?
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2019-03-24T23:51:18Z aeth: just glancing at it, it looks like you're overcomplicating it
2019-03-24T23:57:01Z buhman: how can I make it simpler?
2019-03-24T23:58:40Z aeth: You could do a simple recursion and keep track of consecutive strings, combining the strings until you get to a not-string. It would look like a simple copy outside of that.
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2019-03-24T23:59:21Z aeth: Only disadvantage with this approach is either you would need mutable pairs (i.e. not Racket) and set-cdr! on them or you would be building the list in reverse, so you'd have to reverse the final result.
2019-03-24T23:59:47Z aeth: I'm not sure if this is simpler...
2019-03-25T00:00:53Z aeth: So you'd build the list as (cons not-string partial-copy) and then calling reverse at the end, or you'd build the list by keeping track of the final cons pair and set-cdr! to the end of it.
2019-03-25T00:02:14Z aeth: If you're going the cons route, if it's the end of a sequence of strings you'd use (list* not-string-element built-string partial-copy) instead of cons (remember, that builds in reverse)
2019-03-25T00:02:59Z aeth: If it's the not cons route it would be (set-cdr! final-cons-pair (list built-string not-string-element)) except you'd have to get the last cons pair so you can keep track of the cdr
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2019-03-25T00:34:20Z buhman: aeth: I don't understand your thinking with set-cdr!, but I rewrote it as http://paste.debian.net/1074518/ ; does set-cdr! make that even nicer?
2019-03-25T00:36:53Z buhman: uncertain if I like that more or less, mostly due to the number of (if ...) forms
2019-03-25T00:48:12Z buhman: I rewrote the fold too: http://paste.debian.net/1074522/
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2019-03-25T01:27:31Z friscosam: If segment separator and param don't carry any meaning the (match r ...) on line 5 is the same as cdr
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2019-03-25T01:30:14Z buhman: yeah... I was thinking they would be useful, but it seems like they aren't
2019-03-25T01:30:33Z buhman: I might just change the parser so it doesn't emit those
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2019-03-25T01:36:43Z aeth: buhman: you can replace multiple IFs with COND
2019-03-25T01:37:53Z aeth: buhman: If you're directly building a list instead of using a higher order function, you build it in reverse unless you keep track of the final cons pair and set-cdr! on it instead of building it as a pure function. (This is impossible in Racket beause set-cdr! won't work on the default cons pairs, which are immutable)
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2019-03-25T01:57:28Z aeth: buhman: This is what I was talking about: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1838520
2019-03-25T01:57:38Z aeth: (I might not have solved your problem if I misinterpreted what you're saying.)
2019-03-25T01:58:33Z aeth: I'd call that "classic-style" Scheme. The stuff you'd see in textbooks. With a slight modification (as long as it's not Racket) you can make that more efficient by removing the reverse and using set-cdr! on the tracked last cons pair to add your items instead of consing them to the front.
2019-03-25T01:59:34Z aeth: It's just two functions, one that has a simple API and a helper one that is tail recursive with a terminating condition.
2019-03-25T01:59:50Z aeth: That's certainly not the only valid solution, though.
2019-03-25T01:59:51Z buhman: aeth: I don't understand how you'd use set-cdr!; do you mind showing that?
2019-03-25T02:01:41Z aeth: Well, I wrote that in Racket so the set-cdr! version won't work. The way you'd do that is just have another argument that is the final cons pair. Then you never change result-l unless it is null (the initial element) and instead (set-cdr! last-pair (list (cdr l))) and update last-pair to be the end of the new list
2019-03-25T02:02:51Z aeth: This works because the last part of any linked list in Scheme is (cons the-element-of-the-list '()) so when you're using set-cdr! you're replacing '() with (cons (cdr l) '()) and thus turning (list foo) into (list foo (cdr l))
2019-03-25T02:07:45Z aeth: This is considerably messier. You now have to have another null? check, and you need to have multiple lines in the cond (or use begin if in an if so you can use multiple lines in one branch). You also have to constantly update the last pair.
2019-03-25T02:07:59Z buhman: hmm
2019-03-25T02:08:46Z buhman: in my use-case, this function can be (reasonably) slow; I'd prefer readability.
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2019-03-25T11:23:06Z jcowan: aeth: However, set-cdr! is actually less efficient than reverse on systems that have write barriers in the GC, since you are making an old object point to a new object.
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2019-03-26T01:28:04Z johnjay: jcowan: shcmers are always talking compilers and optimization
2019-03-26T01:28:05Z johnjay: cool
2019-03-26T01:28:51Z jcowan: There are two kinds of language communities: those that were traumatized early on by outsiders calling their language slow, and those that were not.
2019-03-26T01:29:10Z jcowan: Cobol programmers don't worry about slow code.
2019-03-26T01:29:54Z johnjay: what do cobol programmers worry about? Cylons?
2019-03-26T01:30:31Z jcowan: I don't know; I'll go on #cobol and ask.
2019-03-26T01:31:26Z johnjay: ... there's really a #cobol?
2019-03-26T01:32:15Z johnjay: well TIL
2019-03-26T01:32:16Z johnjay: there is one
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2019-03-26T02:03:01Z jcowan: Not much happens there, though. Cobol is the secret weapon of Cobol programmers, and they don't like to talk about it in public.
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2019-03-26T02:06:45Z johnjay: #cobolclub
2019-03-26T02:07:23Z johnjay: by the way jcowan as far as poking around in the source to learn
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2019-03-26T02:07:36Z johnjay: say of chicken or something like racket. what % of time should one devote to that
2019-03-26T02:08:07Z johnjay: i'm learning a fair bit of elisp by just reading the .el files
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2019-03-26T02:12:56Z jcowan: Depends what works for you.  I learn best from books/articles, then from documentation, then from noodling in the REPL.
2019-03-26T02:20:58Z johnjay: yeah
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2019-03-26T02:30:17Z aeth: jcowan: Afaik COBOL is actually pretty fast, as is pretty much any popular-in-the-1980s language (out of necessity)
2019-03-26T02:38:19Z jcowan: Pretty fast on modern systems, not so fast in the 1960s.
2019-03-26T02:39:18Z adhoc: was any high level language fast on 1960's systems ?
2019-03-26T02:41:09Z jcowan: Depends what you call fas.t
2019-03-26T02:41:32Z jcowan: CPU and memory were about the same speed, and both were much faster than the available I/O devices
2019-03-26T02:44:16Z adhoc: indeed
2019-03-26T02:44:55Z adhoc: i duplicated hundreds of tapes in the late 1990's from a 300 baud half in reel to reel tape drive
2019-03-26T02:45:06Z adhoc: put them all on a CD
2019-03-26T02:45:28Z adhoc: academics hold onto stuff waaay to long =P
2019-03-26T02:46:09Z adhoc: massively distributed/parallel IO makes sense when the CPU/MEM is four orders of magnitude faster than your IO
2019-03-26T02:46:18Z adhoc: now, can be the other way
2019-03-26T02:51:04Z johnjay: jcowan: just read your comment about MAX_INT + 1
2019-03-26T02:51:09Z johnjay: i thought that was some kind of error
2019-03-26T02:51:19Z johnjay: but gcc/clang just silently get rid of it as UB?
2019-03-26T02:56:30Z skapata: Which is the best book about optimizing Scheme/Lisp compilers? :D
2019-03-26T02:58:25Z johnjay: SICP is my answer when i don't know anything
2019-03-26T02:58:28Z johnjay: so i'll guess SICP
2019-03-26T03:01:35Z adhoc: It is Let over Lambda that talks about building interpreters/compilers from scratch ?
2019-03-26T03:02:05Z pjb: adhoc: rather LiSP
2019-03-26T03:02:15Z pjb: Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
2019-03-26T03:02:36Z adhoc: pjb: ok ta
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2019-03-26T03:19:00Z johnjay: pjb: lol links if you're quick enough!?
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2019-03-26T03:20:55Z pjb: I don't keep lol in my quick-irc-answers.
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2019-03-26T03:31:19Z johnjay: his website has a redirect thing
2019-03-26T03:32:44Z johnjay: where if you try that second link one level up it tells you you have a second to click
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2019-03-26T05:44:57Z siraben: adhoc:  compiling with continuations is good as well
2019-03-26T05:45:26Z siraben: adhoc:  but it would help to build interpreters first, there's Essentials of Programming Languages
2019-03-26T05:54:02Z johnjay: essentials of programming by daniel p
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2019-03-26T17:03:48Z yates: i have some solid black around the border of an image i'd like to convert to transparency (alpha). how do i do this?
2019-03-26T17:03:53Z yates: with gimp
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2019-03-26T17:13:42Z pjb: yates: 1- ensure your image has an alpha channel. 2- use the magic wand to select the black, and delete it.
2019-03-26T17:13:50Z pjb: Oh, with gimp.
2019-03-26T17:14:08Z deuill: You can also do selection, and then do 'Selection to Alpha'
2019-03-26T17:14:11Z pjb: yates: all I can say, is that I have an old gimp script to merge pictures.
2019-03-26T17:14:22Z pjb: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/pic-merge-diff3/index.html
2019-03-26T17:14:34Z deuill: Ah with the Guile API
2019-03-26T17:14:45Z yates: deuill: where is "selection to alpha" in the gui?
2019-03-26T17:15:00Z yates: i have the area i'd like to make alpha selected
2019-03-26T17:17:56Z deuill: Ah I was wrong, just deleting that part is sufficient as pjb mentioned. However it's sometimes better to do 'Color to Alpha', under the 'Colors' menu, if there's a single color you want converted and there's sections where the colors fade into each other.
2019-03-26T17:18:54Z yates: when i delete it, i see white and not the checkerboard alpha i was expecting
2019-03-26T17:19:20Z deuill: The image probably needs to have an alpha channel added
2019-03-26T17:19:22Z pjb: yates: this means your picture doesn't have the alpha channel.
2019-03-26T17:19:27Z pjb: You need to add it.
2019-03-26T17:19:35Z yates: ah.
2019-03-26T17:19:38Z yates: thanks that was it!
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2019-03-26T17:21:34Z yates: thanks!
2019-03-26T17:21:53Z yates: very nice
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2019-03-26T19:01:11Z Zipheir: Is there any well-known library providing something like a signed-integer->bytevector procedure?
2019-03-26T19:01:56Z Zipheir: (that is, for obtaining a two's-complement binary representation of some int.)
2019-03-26T19:07:37Z weinholt: Zipheir, sint->bytevector in (industria bytevectors)
2019-03-26T19:08:36Z Zipheir: weinholt: Which implementation is industria provided by?
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2019-03-26T19:09:19Z weinholt: Zipheir, https://github.com/weinholt/industria
2019-03-26T19:11:19Z Zipheir: Wow, nice.
2019-03-26T19:13:02Z Zipheir: Unfortunately, I'm using CHICKEN so R6 stuff is out.
2019-03-26T19:13:07Z Zipheir: I may steal some code, however.
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2019-03-27T02:05:20Z adhoc: johnjay: ta
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2019-03-27T09:55:10Z foof: ecraven: I've not spent much time optimising for speed.
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2019-03-27T09:55:24Z ecraven: foof: so there might be low-hanging fruit left? :D
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2019-03-27T09:56:44Z foof: quite likely, but I want to keep it small and extensible so some obvious things (new combined opcodes) would be a bad idea
2019-03-27T09:56:59Z foof: e.g. effort in that direction would make a JIT harder
2019-03-27T09:58:32Z ecraven: understandable ;)
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2019-03-28T10:20:01Z ecraven: ;)
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2019-03-28T11:43:57Z amz3: it o/
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2019-03-28T13:30:46Z hil8: Hi. Anyone done some chez scheme web development with the catapult web framework?
2019-03-28T13:44:49Z ecraven: I've done web stuff, but not with catapult, just my own custom code
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2019-03-28T15:42:03Z johnjay: i can't even get chez to download for some reason off github. o_0
2019-03-28T15:49:44Z amz3: via git?
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2019-03-28T16:08:48Z johnjay: yes
2019-03-28T16:08:49Z johnjay: sorry i'm doing several things at once
2019-03-28T16:08:49Z johnjay: trying again now
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2019-03-28T16:17:08Z pjb: johnjay: try bigloo then.
2019-03-28T16:17:18Z johnjay: ok
2019-03-28T16:21:35Z amz3: sorry i'm doing several things at once > that might be the problem
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2019-03-28T19:02:44Z amz3: https://github.com/gothinkster/realworld
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2019-03-28T21:35:58Z TCZ: ;)
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2019-03-29T02:40:13Z jusss: hello anyone!
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2019-03-29T05:16:02Z Zipheir: amz3: o/
2019-03-29T05:21:58Z Zipheir: rudybot: Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall!  Take one down, pass it around... and?
2019-03-29T05:22:09Z rudybot: Zipheir: fsbot, with botheart broken into aleph_2 pieces, has left: "Goodbye"
2019-03-29T05:22:27Z Zipheir: rudybot: bzzzt!
2019-03-29T05:22:27Z rudybot: Zipheir: bzzzt
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2019-03-29T13:29:32Z siraben: I'm working on a Haskell translation of the R5RS Scheme denotational semantics, if anyone's interested: https://github.com/siraben/r5rs-denot
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2019-03-29T14:31:05Z andrei-n: I read somewhere that the first versions of Scheme had nil.  Where can I find the discussions that led to its removal?  Thanks.
2019-03-29T14:32:21Z johnjay: haskell... in scheme... wait what
2019-03-29T14:33:40Z johnjay: andrei-n: http://web.archive.org/web/20070808004043/http://wiki.wordaligned.org/sicp/published/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
2019-03-29T14:35:57Z johnjay: by the way i don't know what the comment about emacs and guile refers to
2019-03-29T14:36:04Z johnjay: in emacs (eq nil '()) is t
2019-03-29T14:36:17Z johnjay: so having them not be eq wouldn't be useful for that
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2019-03-29T14:40:28Z ashawley: Guy Steele wrote a paper about the evolution of Lisp
2019-03-29T14:40:43Z ashawley: I recall there's a section about nil and #f
2019-03-29T14:41:16Z andrei-n: Perhaps they wanted to make the difference between the absence of a value and an empty list.  Like in Java there is null and an empty object, or in Rust there is Some and None...
2019-03-29T14:42:05Z andrei-n: By the way do you know the name of the paper?
2019-03-29T14:42:43Z johnjay: i'm not sure what this Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming book is
2019-03-29T14:42:51Z ashawley: I don't remember.  It may be "Evolution of Lisp"
2019-03-29T14:42:53Z johnjay: but the other stuff looks interesting
2019-03-29T14:42:55Z johnjay: http://web.archive.org/web/20070809045756/http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/492#comment-3760
2019-03-29T14:43:19Z ashawley: Van Roy and Haridi?
2019-03-29T14:43:21Z johnjay: Maybe one of the original lambda papers from that link/
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2019-03-29T19:13:50Z duncanm: quiet
2019-03-29T19:14:45Z gnomon: LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
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2019-03-29T20:47:17Z jcowan: Question: I'm working on a proposed date library. Since (current-seconds) returns a count of TAI (SI) seconds since the 1970-01-01T00:00:00, I want to provide three timescales: TAI, UTC/civil, and Posix.  In TAI, every minute has 60 seconds, leap seconds included; in UTC, some minutes have 61 seconds; in Posix, every minute has 60 seconds and leap seconds are equated to the following second.
2019-03-29T20:48:18Z jcowan: The question is, when you break a TAI instant into years/months/days/hours/minutes/seconds, should this use UTC or Posix time?   (TAI time is out, as it is 27 seconds ahead of UTC and getting further ahead all the time.)
2019-03-29T20:49:07Z jcowan: Most computers return Posix time, which means users at not exposed to the 61st second, but perhaps UTC is better?
2019-03-29T20:49:24Z gnomon: jcowan, wouldn't it be fair for a call to break a TAI instant into y/m/d/h/m/s to throw an error?
2019-03-29T20:49:43Z jcowan: No, it's a legitimate thing to do.
2019-03-29T20:50:22Z gnomon: But the mapping isn't well defined, not everywhere and at all times - eg. in the case of a legitimacy dispute about which authority gets to set the timezone for a particular region
2019-03-29T20:50:50Z jcowan: Timezones are at a higher level than this.  This is about time scales = how many seconds, and which ones, per minute.
2019-03-29T20:50:57Z gnomon: Right, I get that
2019-03-29T20:51:25Z gnomon: I'm just making the point that UTC and posix attempt to answer that question, and TAI explicitly refuses to answer it, offering only a monotonic count instead
2019-03-29T20:52:57Z jcowan: e.g. http://leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm shows you local, UTC, GPS, Loran, and TAI time broken out as years...seconds.
2019-03-29T20:53:03Z jcowan: local is always based on GPS.
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2019-03-29T20:54:00Z jcowan: s/GPS/UTC/ of course
2019-03-29T20:54:06Z gnomon nods
2019-03-29T20:54:39Z jcowan: So it does make sense to offer broken-down times based on a TAI instant, which is what R7RS requires systems to provide (even if inaccurately).
2019-03-29T20:54:50Z jcowan: The question is, what's the best default?
2019-03-29T20:54:52Z gnomon shrugs
2019-03-29T20:54:55Z gnomon: OK.
2019-03-29T20:55:11Z jcowan: UTC and Posix always report the same broken-out time except during a leap seoncd.
2019-03-29T20:55:19Z jcowan: TAI never does except before 1958
2019-03-29T20:55:52Z jcowan: (I have figured out an arbitrary pattern of leap seconds to use retroactively from 1958-72 so as to make up the 10 second difference 1 second at a time.)
2019-03-29T20:56:12Z jcowan: (rather than getting involved in "rubber seconds" or fractional leap seconds.
2019-03-29T20:56:21Z gnomon: )
2019-03-29T20:56:38Z gnomon: Nice, I'm not a big fan of those workarounds either.
2019-03-29T21:00:30Z jcowan: By adding leap seconds on Dec 31 1959, 61, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 70, 71 I get the following good results:
2019-03-29T21:01:44Z jcowan: TAI-UTC = 0 at 1958 when TAI starts; TAI-UTC = 10 at 1972 when integral leap seconds start; there is no leap second close to the Unix epoch; TAI-UTC = 8 at the Unix epoch, which is only a few hundred-thousandths of a second less than the true value.
2019-03-29T21:02:26Z jcowan: Finally, no leap seconds before 1958, when civil time = proleptic UTC = proleptic TAI = Posix time.
2019-03-29T21:03:52Z jcowan: (the exact value as of the Unix epoch is 8.000082)
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2019-03-29T21:23:38Z Zipheir: Presumably POSIX time will be the easier option for most implementations.
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2019-03-30T20:46:42Z fschuindt: Greetings. Is there a practical difference between Scheme and what they call the "SICP mode for Racket"? Thanks!
2019-03-30T20:51:46Z wasamasa: that's like asking whether there's a difference between the FTP protocol and vsftpd
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2019-03-30T21:00:17Z ashawley: fschuindt: Presumably it's a version of Scheme, albeit an old one
2019-03-30T21:03:38Z ashawley: Looks like it's an augmented version of r5rs
2019-03-30T21:03:39Z ashawley: https://docs.racket-lang.org/r5rs/index.html
2019-03-30T21:05:06Z fschuindt: ashawley: Thanks! That's what I was thinking of, but as I'm really new to this subject, and was already making some wrong assumptions about different Lisp implementations, I'm taking small steps now.
2019-03-30T21:05:54Z pjb: sicp scheme is an older scheme, like r4rs or r5rs. Nowadays we have r7rs.  That's the problem with scheme it changes all the time. At least, Common Lisp is stable.
2019-03-30T21:06:51Z ashawley: fschuindt: If you want to learn Scheme, SICP is still a good place to start
2019-03-30T21:07:42Z fschuindt: pjb: Got it. ashawley: yes, that's my plan. I'm fisrt getting familiar with the environment for running files, basic syntax, etc. Then I'll retake readings.
2019-03-30T21:07:59Z ashawley: fschuindt: Happy SICP'ing!
2019-03-30T21:08:06Z pjb: sicp is great!
2019-03-30T21:08:08Z fschuindt: ashawley: thanks! ^^
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2019-03-30T21:52:06Z aeth: pjb: the point of r7rs is to be much closer to r5rs than r6rs was
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2019-03-31T01:24:36Z Jackiew2: I use The Little Schemer instead of SICP
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2019-03-31T01:25:38Z Jackiew2: Also how does one read HTDP without a GUI? (as in using only command line)
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2019-03-31T01:43:17Z aeth: Jackiew2: The Little Schemer is a great book. I wonder if it has its own Racket lang because it has its own dialect, too
2019-03-31T01:44:11Z aeth: it doesn't look like it
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2019-03-31T01:44:40Z Jackiew2: SICP just isn't for me
2019-03-31T01:44:46Z Jackiew2: Not a great math guy
2019-03-31T01:45:13Z aeth: SICP is a fairly advanced text. It was an introductory MIT book, but it assumes things that you can't assume first semester freshmen would know in other universities, e.g. it uses calculus examples
2019-03-31T01:45:52Z aeth: So it's more intermediate than introductory
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2019-03-31T01:47:52Z Duns_Scrotus: sicp is basic in programming but has a bunch of hard math in it
2019-03-31T01:48:01Z Duns_Scrotus: for no good reason
2019-03-31T01:48:39Z aeth: Duns_Scrotus: because for the era it was written in, you can assume that the reader knows calculus but not programming
2019-03-31T01:49:11Z Duns_Scrotus: i'm TAing a sicp course right now, for the second time, and I am not so enthused about the book tbh
2019-03-31T01:49:13Z aeth: An advanced high school student can take two or three calculus courses. An advanced high school student probably couldn't really take serious programming... probably not even today. It's usually just Java nonsense
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2019-03-31T01:51:58Z Jackiew2: Can senior high school students learn SICP
2019-03-31T01:52:03Z Jackiew2: Because I am one
2019-03-31T01:52:51Z ashawley: Well, if you have trouble you could always switch to HTDP
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2019-03-31T02:21:09Z aeth: Jackiew2: watch https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE18841CABEA24090
2019-03-31T02:21:15Z aeth: (the video lectures)
2019-03-31T02:22:56Z Jackiew2: Is it easier?
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2019-03-31T02:50:29Z aeth: Jackiew2: yes
2019-03-31T02:50:49Z aeth: it's at a higher level than the book, it might help with it
2019-03-31T02:51:57Z aeth: If you are weak on math, you should do the Khan Academy or some other site that covers the basics in a way that you prefer. While it's true that programming only really requires algebra, a lot of the more interesting stuff goes into more detail
2019-03-31T02:51:57Z Jackiew2: Do you need the 1st edition to use it
2019-03-31T02:52:02Z aeth: no
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2019-03-31T03:06:28Z Zipheir: There are _a couple_ of examples that use basic calculus in SICP, which can easily be skipped if you like.  Why do people keep making such a huge issue of it?
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2019-03-31T03:11:49Z Riastradh: Calculus is great.  If not knowing calculus is getting in the way, sounds like an opportunity for a learning experience?
2019-03-31T03:12:52Z Riastradh: Calculus is just a tool to take annoyingly hard problems and approximate them by addition and multiplication.
2019-03-31T03:21:11Z Jackiew2: aeth: do you find mathisfun useful?
2019-03-31T03:22:51Z Jackiew2: https://www.mathsisfun.com/calculus/
2019-03-31T03:24:03Z Jackiew2: Khan academy is starting to get me boring because I can't sit down and watch videos all day
2019-03-31T03:24:47Z Riastradh: I like Michael Spivak's _Calculus_ textbook.
2019-03-31T03:24:50Z Jackiew2: I prefer pen and paper activities
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2019-03-31T03:25:40Z aeth: Jackiew2: It's not useful to me, but that might just be because it's below my level
2019-03-31T03:26:33Z Jackiew2: It will take years to go to calculus from formal learning
2019-03-31T03:27:53Z Jackiew2: I would use an alternative to Khan Academy that is more on reading
2019-03-31T03:28:54Z ashawley: I hadn't seen this before https://teachyourselfcs.com/
2019-03-31T03:29:05Z ashawley is not a cs educator, so not a surprise
2019-03-31T03:29:48Z Jackiew2: https://schoolyourself.org
2019-03-31T03:32:40Z Jackiew2: Khan academy would be like this one
2019-03-31T03:32:55Z Jackiew2: Videos would be interactive
2019-03-31T03:34:39Z ashawley: Yeah, watching videos is passive.
2019-03-31T03:34:41Z ashawley: Probably better to read or do problems.
2019-03-31T03:34:47Z ashawley is old fashioned, though
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2019-03-31T03:38:54Z Jackiew2: "Don't ever be stuck watching another boring 10-minute video again -- you learn best by doingmath, not just watching someone else do it"
2019-03-31T03:39:17Z Jackiew2: Well this roasted Sal Khan
2019-03-31T03:39:25Z aeth: eh, you get stuff in videos that you missed
2019-03-31T03:39:44Z aeth: not very time efficient but sometimes there's more than one way to do something, and you do the slow way repeatedly, and then you watch the video out of curiosity and are surprised
2019-03-31T03:40:04Z aeth: I mean it should probably be 10:1 exercises:videos but you learn stuff from videos
2019-03-31T03:40:42Z aeth: as for the SICP videos, I really do recommend them. Just watch them at 2x speed if it's slow
2019-03-31T03:41:55Z Jackiew2: KA just gives too much videos
2019-03-31T03:42:14Z Jackiew2: And what if I want a quick learn about about Calculus from Algebra 2
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2019-03-31T03:43:17Z Jackiew2: That it takes me a month to learn to get thete
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2019-03-31T03:56:25Z Zipheir: Henle & Kleinberg's _Infinitesimal Calculus_ is a another gem.  Quite short, too.
2019-03-31T03:57:00Z Jackiew2: There are neat books in the archive
2019-03-31T03:58:17Z Zipheir: The MIT OCW calculus lectures are OK, if you like a physics-oriented approach.
2019-03-31T03:58:22Z Jackiew2: https://archive.org/details/Calculus_643
2019-03-31T03:58:52Z Jackiew2: Are 60s books ok
2019-03-31T03:59:24Z Zipheir: Wow, I didn't know Spivak's book was on archive.org.  Very nice.
2019-03-31T04:00:09Z Zipheir: Not much has changed in basic calculus since the 60s, although I guess the teaching methods have.
2019-03-31T04:00:48Z Zipheir: If possible, go with books that use the non-standard approach.  Much clearer, IMHO.
2019-03-31T04:01:54Z Jackiew2: Zipheir: are YouTube videos fine too?
2019-03-31T04:02:30Z Jackiew2: there's this one youtuber who is very good and popular for teaching calculus
2019-03-31T04:03:10Z Zipheir: If it works for you, use it, I guess.
2019-03-31T04:04:28Z Jackiew2: I'm not really planning for full fledged CS
2019-03-31T04:04:39Z Jackiew2: Just for an intro and that's it
2019-03-31T04:04:48Z Zipheir: Don't limit yourself like that.
2019-03-31T04:05:00Z Zipheir: If you learn a bit and are still interested, keep learning.
2019-03-31T04:05:14Z Jackiew2: I can't really afford for real Computer Science
2019-03-31T04:05:32Z Zipheir: Real CS costs money?
2019-03-31T04:06:21Z Jackiew2: Going to college
2019-03-31T04:07:06Z Zipheir: Plenty of people who do 'real CS' have never studied it in college.  Some have never gone to college at all.
2019-03-31T04:19:05Z Jackiew2: Zipheir: I mean free real CS is now possible online thru MIT and Edx
2019-03-31T04:27:16Z Jackiew2: Zipheir: So far I might get to Calculus in no time after learning precalculus
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2019-03-31T04:41:40Z Zipheir: Jackiew2: Sounds good.
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2019-03-31T08:27:18Z rain1: Which was the paper that uses twice CPS to give semantics to shift/reset?
2019-03-31T08:36:17Z siraben: rain1:  Ooh I'd like to see that paper too
2019-03-31T08:36:28Z siraben: Will Byrd mentioned it in his talk
2019-03-31T08:38:18Z rain1: Abstracting Control (1990) by Olivier Danvy , Andrzej Filinski
2019-03-31T08:39:18Z siraben: Compiling with Continuations does an excellent job of walking through how to convert programs to CPS
2019-03-31T08:39:36Z siraben: And doing various optimizations on that form
2019-03-31T08:39:49Z siraben: CPS is highly effective for functional programming languages indeed.
2019-03-31T08:40:41Z ggole: It's gone out of favour though
2019-03-31T08:40:50Z rain1: https://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/b7k7wy/how_to_implement_delimited_continuation_in/ejskho9/
2019-03-31T08:40:54Z rain1: i wrote this comment
2019-03-31T08:41:19Z rain1: "How to implement delimited continuations" is kind of a hard question to answer
2019-03-31T08:42:20Z ggole: There are other ways to approach compilation that capture most (maybe all) of the advantages of CPS without having to fiddle with administrative redexes
2019-03-31T08:43:03Z ggole: (That said, CwC is a very nice book.)
2019-03-31T08:43:34Z siraben: ggole:  what are the more modern techniques?
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2019-03-31T08:44:20Z ggole: Using direct style with join-point annotations, and SSA
2019-03-31T08:44:47Z rain1: yeah the join point stuff from GHC/simon peyton jones?
2019-03-31T08:44:53Z siraben: ggole:  any recommended papers?
2019-03-31T08:45:02Z ggole: SSA is pretty much CPS without the nesting of blocks.
2019-03-31T08:45:08Z siraben: I have his book "the implementation of functional lanugages" downloaded
2019-03-31T08:45:18Z siraben: Looks like a lot of fun
2019-03-31T08:45:28Z ggole: There's a paper on join points that is well worth a read (the one rain mentions)
2019-03-31T08:46:03Z ggole: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/compiling-without-continuations.pdf
2019-03-31T08:50:06Z siraben: That paper's title made me chuckle
2019-03-31T08:50:09Z siraben: Clever.
2019-03-31T08:56:27Z rain1: SPJ gave a talk on this which is a littel easier to take in than the paper btw
2019-03-31T08:56:50Z rain1: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/6m14j5/pldi_2017_simon_peyton_jones_compiling_without/
2019-03-31T08:57:05Z rain1: I think it's a great development for compiler IRs
2019-03-31T08:59:27Z rain1: (1994) Representing Monads - Andrzej Filinski  also does the double CPS semantics for shift/reset
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2019-03-31T09:02:48Z ggole: It's a bit puzzling to me that join-point like ideas took so long to become common, since they've been around a long time
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2019-03-31T09:06:32Z rain1: yeah
2019-03-31T09:06:42Z rain1: there is some more theoretical work investigating their logical meaning
2019-03-31T09:10:31Z ggole: A bunch of compilers have done pretty much the same thing, too: some using CPS, and some the other approaches or a hybrid
2019-03-31T09:10:37Z ggole: Oh well.
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2019-03-31T17:26:01Z jcowan: rain1: So it is possible to implement delimited continuations on top of R5RS?  Does it screw with dynamic-wind to do so?
2019-03-31T17:35:32Z jcowan: pjb: There have been more backward incompatible changes to CL than to Scheme in the last 25 years.
2019-03-31T17:35:50Z ecraven: there were changes to CL?
2019-03-31T17:40:00Z jcowan: between CLtL CL and ANSI CL, yes.  I don't have a list of those, so I can't be positive about the number, but I think it is ~ 10.  There are 7 changes between R4RS (1991) and R7RS; 8 are listed in R4RS, but one applies to syntax-rules, which didn't exist in R4RS except as a non-normative appendix.
2019-03-31T17:41:02Z jcowan: http://web.archive.org/web/20130807175341/http://bc.tech.coop/cltl2-ansi.htm lists 27 changes from CLtL2 to ANSI, but many are extensions and some are about features that weren't in CLtL1 at all, like the eliminination of generic-flet.
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2019-03-31T17:50:04Z jcowan: Okay, my best count is six, so *slightly* more stable than Scheme:  setf-method > setf-expander, base/extended-character > base/extended-char, apply/evalhook removed, special-form-p > special-operator-p, array-total-size-limit must be a fixnum, various list functions can't take non-proper lists.
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2019-03-31T17:54:53Z jcowan: For Scheme: case-sensitivity, exact->inexact > inexact and vice versa, string comparison need not be lexicographic, # in numbers removed, s/d/f/l in exponents removed, string->number pukes less often, transcript-on/off gone gone gone!  A few things were removed from R6RS like char-ready and load, but added back to R7RS; the mantissa-width syntax of R6RS was not carried over to R7RS.
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2019-03-31T18:41:15Z ecraven: but there were no changes to ansi cl since it was finished, right?
2019-03-31T18:41:20Z ecraven: no "update" or "errata"
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2019-03-31T18:47:47Z jcowan: https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata <-- unofficial ANSI CL errata
2019-03-31T18:49:09Z jcowan: https://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Changes is also of some interest
2019-03-31T18:49:52Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/R7RSSmallErrata.md <-- unofficial R7RS errata
2019-03-31T18:57:05Z jcowan: I like this sentence:  "NCONC [= Scheme append!] is very seldom a good idea, since its time complexity class is no better than APPEND, its space complexity class also is no better than APPEND in the common case where no one else is sharing the side-effected list, and its bug complexity class is way higher than APPEND."  I would also add that in GCs with a write-barrier its garbage complexity class is higher than APPEND.
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2019-03-31T19:27:47Z johnjay: has anybody com piled chez scheme on arm before?
2019-03-31T19:28:03Z johnjay: the .configure script says i have to select a machine type but none of them appear to be ARM32 or 64
2019-03-31T19:28:42Z wasamasa: CHICKEN will solve your troubles :>
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2019-03-31T19:32:39Z Zipheir: In other words, "and now for something completely different".
2019-03-31T19:33:11Z wasamasa: the only scheme I got running on a rpi
2019-03-31T19:33:32Z ecraven: johnjay: check github, I think there was an issue about how to run it on arm
2019-03-31T19:33:38Z ecraven: arm32 should work, not sure about arm64
2019-03-31T19:34:08Z johnjay: wasamasa: i think chicken was already precompiled though
2019-03-31T19:34:15Z johnjay: at least that's how the guy in the channel explained it
2019-03-31T19:34:20Z johnjay: i needed a ch icken binary to compile the chicken binary
2019-03-31T19:34:28Z wasamasa: sure, but that's no problem
2019-03-31T19:35:12Z wasamasa: you can use a pre-compiled tarball or do full bootstrapping
2019-03-31T19:35:56Z weinholt: johnjay, there's a debian package for chez scheme on 32-bit arm here, it has the boot file you can also use to bootstrap chez yourself: https://packages.debian.org/buster/chezscheme9.5
2019-03-31T19:36:18Z johnjay: eh
2019-03-31T19:36:29Z johnjay: so chez is the same way, i need a binary of it to bootstrap it?
2019-03-31T19:36:33Z weinholt: you'll need files from https://packages.debian.org/buster/chezscheme9.5-dev as well
2019-03-31T19:36:37Z weinholt: yep
2019-03-31T19:36:41Z wasamasa: it's something lots of compilers do
2019-03-31T19:36:46Z ecraven: weinholt: I thought chez can cross-compile itself?
2019-03-31T19:37:43Z weinholt: ecraven, it can indeed, the boot files are not mandatory if you have another arch working. but it's much easier with boot files in hand.
2019-03-31T19:39:04Z weinholt: although there is a new release out... and actually those boot files don't work with the new release :)
2019-03-31T19:40:07Z jcowan: Not that Chicken hasn't gone there too from time to time.
2019-03-31T19:40:32Z wasamasa: such is bootstrapping
2019-03-31T19:40:43Z wasamasa: I wonder what the reproducible builds crowd thinks of this
2019-03-31T19:41:42Z wasamasa: the procedure for programmers using this technique is apparently keeping lots of tarballs of compilers capable of compiling the next version around, for each supported platform
2019-03-31T19:42:26Z ecraven: well, what are the alternatives? you need to bootstrap via another compiler (mostly C), right?
2019-03-31T19:42:35Z wasamasa: right
2019-03-31T19:42:49Z ecraven: so if your scheme isn't actually *implemented* in C, then you kind of *have* to rely on earlier versions of your own (or another) Scheme compiler
2019-03-31T19:42:51Z wasamasa: basically, someone else doing the work for you :>
2019-03-31T19:43:07Z ecraven: hm.. though cross-compiling, of course..
2019-03-31T19:43:36Z wasamasa: in the case of C compilers, availability isn't the problem, rather the C standards committee trying to squeeze out the maximum of performance, slowly breaking all not completely standard code out there
2019-03-31T19:44:01Z wasamasa: I've run into a few unpopular language implementations that failed compiling or just working for this reason
2019-03-31T19:44:56Z jcowan: same for native compilers that only have code generators for unpopular architectures, which is probably the biggest source of bit rot now.
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2019-03-31T19:45:20Z wasamasa: do you have any example?
2019-03-31T19:45:28Z wasamasa: why would you use one, other than for teaching purposes?
2019-03-31T19:45:43Z jcowan: Larceny generates 32-bit code only, so programs can run on Linux and BSD, but not on Linux-on-Windows.
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2019-03-31T19:45:54Z wasamasa: ouch
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2019-03-31T19:46:12Z wasamasa: we should tell the no$gba guy that 32-bit assembly on windows is a dying art
2019-03-31T19:48:15Z jcowan: T runs on Sparc and on MIPS (there are MIPS emulators available) but nothing else, and it still has stuff that no other Scheme has.
2019-03-31T19:48:55Z jcowan: unfortunately, porting it is Really Really Hard, because even the GC is written in T and depends on the fact that the GC authors knew exactly how the T compiler generated code.
2019-03-31T19:49:15Z ecraven: jcowan: what does it have that no other Scheme has?
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2019-03-31T19:51:50Z jcowan: first-class local environments for one that can be mutated from outside.
2019-03-31T19:52:08Z ecraven: hm.. I never noticed that, I'll have to re-read the manual ;) thanks!
2019-03-31T19:52:08Z jcowan: It wouldn't be too hard to provide this in an interpreter, but in a compiler it's quite a feat.
2019-03-31T19:52:12Z jcowan: chapter 4
2019-03-31T19:52:24Z ecraven: I mostly remember the `object' thing
2019-03-31T19:53:15Z jcowan: actually, no, maybe they are only mutable global environments.
2019-03-31T19:53:52Z jcowan: http://web.archive.org/web/20170515045004/http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/t_manual.pdf
2019-03-31T19:54:27Z ecraven: interesting, I never noticed before that norman adams was involved in T
2019-03-31T19:55:06Z ecraven: jcowan: you don't happen to have a copy of his master's thesis, "assembling from machine descriptions"?
2019-03-31T19:55:17Z ecraven: I've contacted him, but he doesn't have a digital copy of it himself :-/
2019-03-31T19:57:10Z ecraven: hm.. I should try getting it through the university
2019-03-31T20:01:14Z jcowan: Probably the best idea.  I don't have one either.
2019-03-31T20:01:24Z ecraven: just sent a request, not sure whether they can get it.
2019-03-31T20:01:41Z ecraven: if not, I might try Yale directly, no idea whether they'd be willing to help with a master's thesis from 1985
2019-03-31T20:02:00Z ecraven: not even sure it's relevant, but the mention in the Orbit paper sounds very interesting ;)
2019-03-31T20:03:41Z jcowan: it might exist only on microfilm
2019-03-31T20:06:59Z ecraven: yea, yale is about 4k miles from here, so I'd prefer to avoid actually going there in person ;D
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2019-03-31T20:19:47Z johnjay: ah i tried installing it before ecraven
2019-03-31T20:19:57Z johnjay: but for some reason it says can't install chezscheme9.5
2019-03-31T20:20:38Z johnjay: using raspbian-buster
2019-03-31T20:23:40Z johnjay: guess i'll stick to racket and chicken for now
2019-03-31T20:24:08Z wasamasa: kawa is another one worth using
2019-03-31T20:24:25Z wasamasa: especially if you ever have to deal with java
2019-03-31T20:24:57Z johnjay: that's not in my repo so hopefully it doesn't need bootstrapping
2019-03-31T20:25:00Z johnjay: heh
2019-03-31T20:25:13Z wasamasa: well, you just need a kawa.jar
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2019-03-31T20:27:49Z johnjay: ah
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2019-03-31T21:40:00Z Riastradh: jcowan: Nothing particularly special about T's locales...
2019-03-31T21:41:19Z jcowan: Aren't they externally mutable?  I don't know anywhere else that's supported.
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2019-03-31T21:42:50Z Riastradh: There's nothing particularly special about that; it's just that the data structure used by the compiler and linker is exposed.  Same thing in a lot of systems, without much particular thought to clear or meaningful semantics.
2019-03-31T21:43:03Z Riastradh: Same in MIT Scheme, for instance.
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2019-03-31T21:48:17Z jcowan: Okay, I didn't know that.  I see that MIT Scheme is now better documented than it was.  Great, that gives me something concrete to go with.
2019-03-31T21:50:18Z Riastradh: I learned a lot from reading the T source code to see how things are put together, but there's not much point to the code base itself these days.  There's not much (if anything) in there that isn't done just as well elsewhere, and it has, e.g., no automatic tests, so.
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2019-03-31T21:59:03Z johnjay: can the T source be still compiled and run?
2019-03-31T21:59:52Z Riastradh: I did it about fifteen years ago on Solaris.
2019-03-31T22:00:14Z Riastradh: But there's not much point.
2019-03-31T22:00:18Z Riastradh: These days I use MIT Scheme.
2019-03-31T22:02:17Z Riastradh: Unlike T, MIT Scheme runs on modern CPUs like x86 and, not yet released yet but at some point soonish, arm64.
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2019-03-31T23:11:23Z johnjay: yeah
2019-03-31T23:11:34Z johnjay: what i wonder is if you can still gain insight from those papers
2019-03-31T23:11:37Z johnjay: even if you can't run anything
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