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2019-02-01T12:20:54Z siraben: Oh boy, fuzzing toy Scheme/Lisp implementations with afl-fuzz is a blast. So far it looks like https://github.com/rui314/minilisp is the only one with a correct parser
2019-02-01T12:21:17Z siraben: Nearly correct, there's no checking after reading a ' to see if there's actually an expression after it
2019-02-01T12:22:05Z siraben: The only test case I put in was (define cell (cons 'a 'b))
2019-02-01T12:22:29Z siraben: And it somehow figured out how to use defmacro, lambda and dotted lists. Hm.
2019-02-01T12:24:09Z siraben: This implementation actually uses a recursive descent parsing strategy.
2019-02-01T12:26:52Z rain1: :O
2019-02-01T12:27:16Z rain1: that's amazing!
2019-02-01T12:27:19Z rain1: have you tried https://github.com/rain-1/single_cream ?
2019-02-01T12:27:21Z siraben: Heh, crashes on (defun)
2019-02-01T12:27:33Z siraben: Never tried fuzzing before but afl-fuzz has made it so easy
2019-02-01T12:27:54Z siraben: rain1:  you want me to fuzz that?
2019-02-01T12:28:20Z rain1: yeah!
2019-02-01T12:28:27Z siraben: Ok!
2019-02-01T12:28:45Z siraben: Apparently afl-fuzz can generate JPEG images out of thin air too
2019-02-01T12:28:47Z siraben: starting from "hello"
2019-02-01T12:28:58Z rain1: I remember reading about that, so cool
2019-02-01T12:29:44Z siraben: I'll start with 'hello
2019-02-01T12:31:30Z siraben: Actually that isn't working well, something more complicated then.
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2019-02-01T12:33:00Z siraben: Ok I put in factorial and got crashes right away
2019-02-01T12:33:07Z siraben: 20 unique crashes in 5 secs
2019-02-01T12:33:24Z rain1: oh boy
2019-02-01T12:33:30Z rain1: I guess I havea lot of work to do :P
2019-02-01T12:33:56Z siraben: https://ptpb.pw/Pv7O/text
2019-02-01T12:34:01Z siraben: Here's the first crash
2019-02-01T12:34:06Z rain1: ohh interesting!
2019-02-01T12:34:09Z rain1: the dot there
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2019-02-01T12:34:49Z siraben: hehe this is the state right now
2019-02-01T12:34:52Z siraben: https://ptpb.pw/im6E/text
2019-02-01T12:35:11Z rain1: im creating a directory called t/afl/
2019-02-01T12:35:22Z rain1: for these fuzz created files that break it
2019-02-01T12:36:15Z siraben: I'm removing the factorial because the fuzzer breaks the recursion and causes other crashes
2019-02-01T12:36:37Z siraben: Ok I'll upload it somehow
2019-02-01T12:36:42Z siraben: Ah I'll make a pull request
2019-02-01T12:36:46Z rain1: what do you mean by other crashes? Like outside of the parser? Oh you know we could comment out the EVAL bit if we just  wanted to test parsing
2019-02-01T12:36:51Z rain1: thanks!
2019-02-01T12:37:44Z siraben: I learned about fuzzing from https://nullprogram.com/blog/2019/01/25/
2019-02-01T12:37:48Z siraben: It does wonders.
2019-02-01T12:38:46Z siraben: Should I leave it overnight? It would find even more.
2019-02-01T12:39:32Z rain1: wait i need your input on this
2019-02-01T12:39:37Z rain1: $ ./bin/sch3 < ./t/afl/Pv7O.scm
2019-02-01T12:39:40Z rain1: sch3: src/sch3.c:927: scheme_evlist: Assertion `exps->tag == TAG_CONS' failed.
2019-02-01T12:39:44Z rain1: does that count as a crash?
2019-02-01T12:40:22Z siraben: What's Pv7O?
2019-02-01T12:40:27Z rain1: https://ptpb.pw/Pv7O/text
2019-02-01T12:40:28Z siraben: Oh my test case
2019-02-01T12:41:02Z siraben: Maybe you want to handle that error some way other than an assert() ?
2019-02-01T12:42:21Z siraben: rain1:  there's a lot of crashes being made, but I'll send what I have right now
2019-02-01T12:42:47Z rain1: i suppose you are not supposed to use assert in that way..
2019-02-01T12:42:52Z rain1: ok
2019-02-01T12:43:03Z rain1: so to make my code fuzzer friendly i'll change these asserts to like, print an error and exit
2019-02-01T12:43:23Z rain1: so maybe don't PR yet
2019-02-01T12:43:34Z siraben: Hm what's a good way to send files
2019-02-01T12:43:47Z rain1: hmm
2019-02-01T12:43:53Z siraben: Would magic-wormhole do?
2019-02-01T12:43:54Z rain1: I am pretty awful about this assert thing
2019-02-01T12:44:00Z rain1: this has been a good lesson for me :P
2019-02-01T12:44:41Z siraben: Well, assert() is for things that have to be true at runtime
2019-02-01T12:44:52Z siraben: So them not being true is considered a crash of sorts.
2019-02-01T12:44:55Z siraben: According to afl as well
2019-02-01T12:44:59Z rain1: yeah.. but I kind of used it as a "exit with an error if this happens"
2019-02-01T12:45:03Z rain1: which is bad programming practice
2019-02-01T12:45:17Z siraben: I'm guilty of it too, hehe
2019-02-01T12:46:34Z rain1: once it's fixed maybe we can try fuzzing again!
2019-02-01T12:46:35Z siraben: rain1:  https://send.firefox.com/share/2e6590e1c9
2019-02-01T12:46:47Z rain1: thanks
2019-02-01T12:46:51Z siraben: There's 45 unique crashes there
2019-02-01T12:47:27Z siraben: hehe (define (double n) (if (eq? n 0) 1234 (+ . n)))
2019-02-01T12:47:55Z siraben: Ah it seems to be the assert that failed
2019-02-01T12:48:00Z siraben: Not sure about actual crashes
2019-02-01T12:48:26Z siraben: rain1:  assert() sends an abort signal, which I think crashes do too
2019-02-01T12:48:45Z siraben: yeah, fix those asserts and we can see the real crashes
2019-02-01T12:50:18Z rain1: alright!
2019-02-01T12:51:34Z siraben: Impressive implementation though, I'll surely read the C file for ideas :)
2019-02-01T12:54:06Z rain1: siraben: ok I fixed it!
2019-02-01T12:54:11Z rain1: using die_unless now
2019-02-01T12:54:27Z rain1: that's kind of you!
2019-02-01T12:56:28Z siraben: rain1:  ok restarting the fuzz
2019-02-01T13:00:50Z siraben: Made the test case more interesting too
2019-02-01T13:05:28Z siraben: rain1:  this one causes a segfault https://ptpb.pw/i2FM/text
2019-02-01T13:06:06Z rain1: ÿ <- OMG
2019-02-01T13:06:16Z ecraven: rain1: might be eof inside string
2019-02-01T13:06:33Z ecraven: also, ÿ is by far not the worst unicode character you'll get
2019-02-01T13:07:16Z rain1: hehe
2019-02-01T13:07:20Z rain1: ok im trying to debug this!
2019-02-01T13:07:40Z ecraven: please do not assume the whole world uses ascii. those days are thankfully gone.
2019-02-01T13:07:58Z rain1: oh boy this is a good one
2019-02-01T13:08:41Z ecraven: (define 日本 "Japan") is very much legal and ok in r7rs :D
2019-02-01T13:09:12Z siraben: Wow, it looks like none of my programs that use input in C are actually crash-proof
2019-02-01T13:09:46Z siraben: If not for an edge case, the fuzzer does me over with a buffer overflow
2019-02-01T13:09:48Z rain1: ah this is not a parsing error
2019-02-01T13:09:58Z siraben: What is it then?
2019-02-01T13:10:03Z rain1: this is a crash from infinite loop in eval
2019-02-01T13:10:12Z siraben: Oh I see.
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2019-02-01T13:10:31Z siraben: But how does `fun` get defined in the first place?
2019-02-01T13:10:45Z siraben: Shouldn't the `(cons (cons '+ (cons 5 b))` stop the evaluator?
2019-02-01T13:11:14Z rain1: how about change this one function
2019-02-01T13:11:23Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/aaf4b585b985
2019-02-01T13:11:28Z rain1: so instead of eval it just prints out what it  read
2019-02-01T13:11:39Z rain1: that should restrict fuzzing almost completely to parse errors
2019-02-01T13:12:04Z rain1: it seems to be calling (fun a) in non tail position before going any further
2019-02-01T13:12:36Z siraben: rain1:  so you want me to change the eval function to that?
2019-02-01T13:12:41Z siraben: Yeah test just the parser
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2019-02-01T13:14:02Z rain1: yeah this is just an edit thaht comments out calls to exec
2019-02-01T13:14:57Z siraben: What's the buggiest part do you think of the parser?
2019-02-01T13:15:08Z rain1: I think it's perfect :D
2019-02-01T13:15:30Z rain1: so far none of the fuzz results have been in parse!
2019-02-01T13:16:11Z siraben: We'll see :) afl-fuzz has some dark magic to it
2019-02-01T13:16:23Z siraben: Might take a while though, a couple minutes in and no dice.
2019-02-01T13:16:42Z rain1: valgrind helped me a bit
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2019-02-01T13:16:48Z rain1: and the clang sanitizers
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2019-02-01T13:17:35Z siraben: Clang sanitizers?
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2019-02-01T13:19:31Z rain1: yep
2019-02-01T13:19:50Z rain1: in the makefile look at the analyze pass (if you like), i run the C code with a few different tools that helps catch errors
2019-02-01T13:19:59Z rain1: I genuinely fixed a couple bugs because of those
2019-02-01T13:20:36Z rain1: it adds dynamic checks for some kinds of errors like out of bounds, memory misuse etc.
2019-02-01T13:20:43Z siraben: rain1:  got our first 5 crashes!
2019-02-01T13:20:45Z siraben: uniqu*
2019-02-01T13:20:46Z siraben: unique*
2019-02-01T13:20:47Z rain1: oh nice
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2019-02-01T13:21:43Z siraben posted a file: crashes.zip (3KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/rUNnmOsxKoqQnoGruYFzaMdN >
2019-02-01T13:22:11Z siraben: Example: https://ptpb.pw/KIpd/text
2019-02-01T13:22:22Z rain1: oh boy
2019-02-01T13:22:24Z rain1: look at that beauty
2019-02-01T13:22:35Z siraben: (lam�ammDlambdaDDD`da��lmmUm]]
D
DDDDDlambdaDDD`da��l\m ...
2019-02-01T13:22:38Z siraben: mmm
2019-02-01T13:22:39Z rain1: hahaha
2019-02-01T13:22:53Z siraben: It really likes lambda
2019-02-01T13:24:08Z rain1: hmm
2019-02-01T13:24:10Z rain1: hate to say this but
2019-02-01T13:24:16Z rain1: none of them seem to be crashes
2019-02-01T13:24:21Z siraben: your parser is handling stuff like "~\\�\e�6�b\ fine however
2019-02-01T13:24:48Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/493521426b26
2019-02-01T13:27:55Z siraben: Hm I get an abort for file ...257
2019-02-01T13:28:03Z siraben: Maybe OS differences?
2019-02-01T13:28:56Z siraben posted a file: crashes.zip (4KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/ZQYunPbNYWlCvcgouEyUHldP >
2019-02-01T13:29:00Z siraben: a couple more was found
2019-02-01T13:32:39Z rain1: hmm
2019-02-01T13:32:42Z rain1: how strange they are all not crashing
2019-02-01T13:33:08Z rain1: It might be because of the OS!
2019-02-01T13:33:42Z siraben: That was on macOS, I'll try on NixOS and see
2019-02-01T13:35:27Z siraben: rain1:  don't you want to try fuzzing the evaluator instead?
2019-02-01T13:37:33Z rain1: I think we would have to put a limit on recursion
2019-02-01T13:37:39Z rain1: because we got a recursion crash already
2019-02-01T13:38:06Z siraben: The fuzzer also limits memory to 50 MB and time to 1000 ms
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2019-02-01T13:43:57Z siraben: rain1:  your parser seems fine then, just 10 unique crashes in 1.66 million tests
2019-02-01T13:44:15Z rain1: wow!
2019-02-01T13:45:37Z siraben posted a file: crashes.zip (4KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/ndvguaxZGJaOmbmlQhsSLgPU >
2019-02-01T13:45:46Z siraben: I'll revert to the normal eval preprocess again
2019-02-01T13:45:49Z siraben: Congrats :)
2019-02-01T13:46:13Z siraben: That's the best I've seen for a single C file implementation
2019-02-01T13:49:55Z rain1: thank you
2019-02-01T13:50:55Z siraben: rain1:  what's your facility for macros?
2019-02-01T13:52:01Z rain1: a function called 'preprocess' is run on ever form after READ before EVAL. Initially it is the identity function, inside src/preprocessor.scm I redefine it with a simple code walker that expands based on a table of macro expanders
2019-02-01T13:54:38Z siraben: How do I get it to have quasiquote?
2019-02-01T13:56:46Z rain1: ah so you can run ./util/run.sh
2019-02-01T13:56:55Z rain1: or repl.sh
2019-02-01T13:57:02Z rain1: and those load in the 3 .scm files from src/
2019-02-01T13:57:17Z rain1: which add the standard library, macro system, macros like quasiquote and COND and so on
2019-02-01T13:57:43Z rain1: it's self extensible in scheme like this so that i could reduce the amount of C code
2019-02-01T13:58:19Z siraben: How do I load a file in your scheme/
2019-02-01T13:58:56Z rain1: ./util/run.sh file.scm
2019-02-01T13:59:28Z siraben: rain1:  here's the base64 encoding of a crash https://paste.debian.net/1064449/
2019-02-01T14:01:32Z rain1: omg!!
2019-02-01T14:01:36Z rain1: *** stack smashing detected ***: <unknown> terminated
2019-02-01T14:01:38Z rain1: nice one
2019-02-01T14:02:03Z rain1: it's inside scheme_read_atom
2019-02-01T14:02:30Z rain1: ok ill have to work on this, could be tricky . nice find!
2019-02-01T14:02:34Z siraben: Have no idea why this one is segfaulting https://paste.debian.net/1064450/
2019-02-01T14:02:52Z siraben: Ah must be a recursion
2019-02-01T14:04:10Z siraben: rain1:  https://paste.debian.net/plain/1064452
2019-02-01T14:04:51Z rain1: is 1064450 afl related or just something you tried?
2019-02-01T14:05:20Z siraben: all generated
2019-02-01T14:05:40Z rain1: Oops on line 111: gc_root_stack_height < ROOTSTACK_SIZE
2019-02-01T14:05:45Z rain1: wow... it doest look generated
2019-02-01T14:05:56Z siraben: here's the bad part
2019-02-01T14:05:57Z siraben: https://paste.debian.net/1064454/
2019-02-01T14:06:03Z siraben: Well I wrote a test case that looks like this
2019-02-01T14:06:26Z siraben: Because if I started from "hello" or something it would take a while to get to lisp programs, hehe.
2019-02-01T14:06:29Z rain1: oh that does segfault
2019-02-01T14:07:05Z rain1: ah it is an infinite eval loop in a non tail position
2019-02-01T14:07:09Z rain1: same problem we had earlier
2019-02-01T14:07:17Z rain1: I will put a hard limit on non-tail recursion!
2019-02-01T14:07:20Z rain1: that will stop these crashes
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2019-02-01T14:09:32Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/single_cream/commit/c8c9b83f3831184af294d6930b5411a0e41ae2f8
2019-02-01T14:09:39Z rain1: so there's that long atom one fixed... :x
2019-02-01T14:09:47Z rain1: very glad that it's been found and sorted!
2019-02-01T14:10:16Z siraben: rain1:  yay!
2019-02-01T14:10:20Z siraben: rain1:  I don't get why this fails: https://paste.debian.net/1064455/
2019-02-01T14:10:55Z siraben: Whoa it's causing Guile to hang too
2019-02-01T14:13:04Z siraben: Ah it's a double recursion between "foo" and "abs"
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2019-02-01T14:45:06Z wasamasa: here, have another one: https://github.com/barak/djvulibre/blob/master/doc/minilisp/minilisp.cpp
2019-02-01T14:45:41Z wasamasa: yes, djview handles annotations by using s-expressions
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2019-02-01T15:24:53Z siraben: wasamasa: running
2019-02-01T15:25:00Z siraben: Doesn't seem to have any bugs yet
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2019-02-01T17:19:42Z ManDay: Is there a proper (pure, simple) way w/o redundancies to express  "if X { Y  }  else { if F(Z) { G(Z) } else { Y } }"?
2019-02-01T17:20:42Z ManDay: Maybe my question doesn't make sense. Just if X, then Z is ill defined
2019-02-01T17:21:42Z ManDay: let me rewrite the question, it doesn't seem to make sense that way
2019-02-01T17:22:54Z ManDay: I want to search for the minimum of F(x) over x \in X, but F(x) is only well-defined for G(x) = true.
2019-02-01T17:23:16Z ManDay: (if it's not well defined, it should be considered for the minimum)
2019-02-01T17:24:38Z rain1: write it in scheme
2019-02-01T17:24:41Z pjb: ManDay: you mean (if x y (if (f z) (g z) y))
2019-02-01T17:25:03Z rain1: oh ok
2019-02-01T17:25:14Z ManDay: pjb: I'm trying to make sense of my original question to parse your response
2019-02-01T17:25:15Z rain1: so a kind of minimum-by function, who can also discard values
2019-02-01T17:25:27Z rain1: maybe implement minimum-by with #f treated as infinity
2019-02-01T17:25:43Z rain1: and make the predicate (lambda (elt) (and (g x) (f x)))
2019-02-01T17:26:11Z pjb: ManDay: https://pastebin.com/ke1yW7ne
2019-02-01T17:26:22Z ManDay: pjb: I'm not getting it. Let me try to put down what I have as an recursion with redundancies:
2019-02-01T17:26:35Z rain1: ManDay: How about that?
2019-02-01T17:27:09Z pjb: I don't about recursions, but for boolean expressions, the technique is simple: build a truth table, and simplify from it.
2019-02-01T17:27:24Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnaugh_map
2019-02-01T17:28:31Z pjb: Sorry, I missed a not: (if (or x (not (f z)))  y (g z))
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2019-02-01T17:28:59Z pjb: Note that since or is short-cutting, you won't be evaluating (f z) if x is true as before.
2019-02-01T17:33:39Z ManDay: https://ideone.com/153NOQ
2019-02-01T17:33:46Z ManDay: There, I'm not the fastest at this time of day
2019-02-01T17:34:07Z ManDay: Now I'm essentially looking to make this less redundant (only one call to find-min)
2019-02-01T17:34:48Z rain1: did you try what i said
2019-02-01T17:35:11Z ManDay: rain1: I'm afraid my brain isn't up to understanding it
2019-02-01T17:35:25Z rain1: ok
2019-02-01T17:35:26Z ManDay: I guess "nvm"... I should really look at this again when I'm not overly tired
2019-02-01T17:35:33Z ManDay: Sorry for having bothered you
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2019-02-01T17:44:38Z ManDay: Just for the record, I forgot the actual catch in the snippet, which is the redundant evaluation of f: https://ideone.com/153NOQ
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2019-02-01T17:44:51Z ManDay: (still "nvm", just wanted to put that right at least)
2019-02-01T17:46:00Z rain1: to write minimum recurse over the list with a best value for the smallest item seen
2019-02-01T17:46:15Z rain1: for minimum-by you just need to carry both the best object and it's valuation
2019-02-01T17:46:26Z rain1: for this thing, you just use a custom version of < which treats #f as infinity
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2019-02-01T17:47:49Z ManDay: fair enough, seems to make sense to put it all into the definition of <
2019-02-01T17:47:54Z ManDay: might make sense
2019-02-01T17:47:57Z ManDay: I'll try that
2019-02-01T17:48:07Z ManDay: thanks
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2019-02-02T00:57:27Z siraben posted a file: id:000000,sig:06,src:000376,op:havoc,rep:16 (0KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/yksyAhCVTfBhcCKsGOpAOqEW >
2019-02-02T00:57:29Z siraben posted a file: id:000001,sig:06,src:000421,op:arith8,pos:257,val:+24 (0KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/daSAIdXERrMTEWkSctrMqbPy >
2019-02-02T00:57:34Z siraben: rain1:  these two files cause a crash
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2019-02-02T02:44:40Z siraben posted a file: fuzzer-results.zip (275KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/xVukwtcyaqSZZUMGymCgNAMT >
2019-02-02T02:44:46Z siraben: rain1:  this should be everything
2019-02-02T02:45:17Z siraben: I think something about your string reader is overflowing
2019-02-02T02:45:34Z siraben: Because many of the crashing cases starts with " and has a long string of character afterwards
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2019-02-02T10:03:11Z rain1: I see! I'll have a look
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2019-02-02T10:25:34Z amz3: o/
2019-02-02T10:28:51Z rain1: hi
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2019-02-02T14:47:50Z jcowan: The Tangerine Edition ballot and the Orange Edition straw poll are now closed.  Results shortly.
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2019-02-02T15:52:40Z amz3: rain1: did you watch the guile 3 conf?
2019-02-02T15:53:16Z rain1: i only caught the end
2019-02-02T15:53:26Z rain1: i hope they will be on youtube eventually
2019-02-02T15:53:54Z amz3: :/
2019-02-02T15:55:29Z amz3: I am sad to have missed that.
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2019-02-02T16:26:11Z siraben: rain1:  I started work on a Scheme interpreter https://github.com/siraben/sira-scheme/blob/master/parser.c
2019-02-02T16:26:31Z siraben: finally learning recursive descent has made it resistant against fuzzing :)
2019-02-02T16:26:40Z siraben: no lists yet, but that's quite simple to add.
2019-02-02T16:26:53Z rain1: I saw your scheme to c compiler today!
2019-02-02T16:27:13Z siraben: Ah, hehe.  It's very incomplete and only does simple stuff.
2019-02-02T16:27:20Z rain1: good luck with the interpretr!
2019-02-02T16:27:27Z siraben: Thanks!
2019-02-02T16:27:40Z rain1: you might want to do the GC early on!
2019-02-02T16:27:48Z rain1: if you leave it too late it could become difficult to add in
2019-02-02T16:27:56Z siraben: What strategy do you recommend?
2019-02-02T16:28:19Z rain1: having a stack for roots is very useful
2019-02-02T16:28:53Z siraben: The parser maintains its own garbage, currently.
2019-02-02T16:29:21Z siraben: I haven't tested with valgrind yet but after each parse only the AST should be left, and all tracked too.
2019-02-02T16:29:44Z siraben: And before the next round of the display, the AST is recursively freed.
2019-02-02T16:29:53Z siraben: s/display/REPL
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2019-02-02T16:31:51Z siraben: rain1:  I have no idea how to do proper TCO or first-class continuations yet
2019-02-02T16:32:02Z siraben: And hygenic macros...
2019-02-02T16:33:04Z rain1: I think syntactic closures with syntax objects are the simplest way to do hygienic macros http://www.rntz.net/post/intuitive-hygienic-macros.html
2019-02-02T16:33:12Z rain1: scope sets is another option
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2019-02-02T16:38:14Z jcowan: rain1: Well, Will Clinger told me that he was put off syntactic closures for life when he watched Bawden and Rees, the proponents, arguing at the whiteboard about the exact meaning of a bunch of cases.  Consequently, Larceny does explicit renaming, with syntax-case on top of that a la SRFI 72.
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2019-02-02T16:40:26Z rain1: interesting
2019-02-02T16:41:46Z rain1: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-72/srfi-72.html looks really good
2019-02-02T16:42:29Z jcowan: see https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/SyntaxDefinitions.md for who does what
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2019-02-02T16:50:04Z johnjay: idk why but it seems like I only hear talk about language issues from scheme forums
2019-02-02T16:50:32Z johnjay: maybe i just need to read about rust and go or something
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2019-02-02T17:08:32Z siraben: rain1: how did you implement your base interpreter?
2019-02-02T17:08:40Z siraben: Along with TCO
2019-02-02T17:11:08Z jcowan: Scheme lacks a BDFL and a dominant (or only) implementation.  "Jaw, jaw is better than war, war."  (Winston Churchill)
2019-02-02T17:11:17Z jcowan: (on the UN)
2019-02-02T17:17:05Z rain1: siraben: to do TCO I basically turned every tail recursive call in a scheme interpreter into a goto in my C code
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2019-02-02T17:18:01Z rain1: https://github.com/rain-1/single_cream/blob/master/src/sch3.c#L1057
2019-02-02T17:18:07Z rain1: so for example to eval (begin a b c)
2019-02-02T17:18:23Z rain1: we recursively call eval(a), eval(b) then we jump to "tail call" evaluate c
2019-02-02T17:18:39Z rain1: It's not the only way to do TCO but that's how I did it
2019-02-02T17:20:05Z pjb: (begin a b c) == ((lambda (ar) ((lambda (br) c) b)) a)
2019-02-02T17:20:33Z pjb: rain1: in scheme, eval takes an environment parameter too…
2019-02-02T17:28:08Z johnjay: jcowan: that's a good point. still i would expect there are only so many ideas in the universe
2019-02-02T17:30:14Z jcowan: "Finite" doesn't exclude "very, very, very big".  We pretend our computers are Turing machines because we don't know how to deal with finite-state machines of such a size.
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2019-02-02T17:40:07Z johnjay: yeah a finite machine will inevitable repeat one of its states given enough time
2019-02-02T17:40:12Z johnjay: *inevitably
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2019-02-02T18:19:16Z jcowan: Unless, of course, you dismantle it first.
2019-02-02T18:20:19Z jcowan: Precis of the Tangerine ballot: everything passed, but I decided to nullify the one-vote majority on strings, postponing it to the Green (non-portable) Edition.
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2019-02-02T19:29:08Z Zipheir: Hurrah for Tangerine. Good results, imho.
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2019-02-02T20:06:35Z jcowan: I agree.  I voted for everything except exact complex numbers.
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2019-02-02T22:05:03Z johnjay: voted?
2019-02-02T22:05:09Z johnjay: you can vote for the SRFI? o_0
2019-02-02T22:19:16Z aeth: r7rs-large not SRFI
2019-02-02T23:01:50Z jcowan: Proposals for R7RS-large are prepared as SRFIs, and then Schemers vote on which ones will be incorporated into the standard.
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2019-02-03T01:44:22Z johnjay: ah right. no BDFL
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2019-02-03T02:36:55Z aeth: johnjay: on the other hand, you could see jcowan as a very benevolent BFDL
2019-02-03T02:37:04Z aeth: at least for r7rs (not necessarily rnrs)
2019-02-03T02:37:22Z jcowan clasps his forehead in dismay
2019-02-03T02:37:28Z jcowan: No, no, a thousand times no.
2019-02-03T02:37:42Z aeth: jcowan: what's your role?
2019-02-03T02:38:33Z jcowan: Chair, agenda-maker, general editor, sometime implementer, and general dogsbody of the Working Group, which is a purely self-selected body of Schemers.  If you voted, you are a member.
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2019-02-03T02:44:40Z johnjay: hmm
2019-02-03T02:44:45Z johnjay: i wonder if my client colors are messed up
2019-02-03T02:45:18Z johnjay: it's supposed to use a different color when you ping me
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2019-02-03T02:54:11Z aeth: jcowan: so you're the Benevolent Chair For Now?
2019-02-03T02:54:35Z jcowan: I suppose so, yes.
2019-02-03T02:54:43Z jcowan: *Nolo episcopari*
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2019-02-03T03:15:40Z johnjay: jcowan: i am a humble novice, not fit to mapcar your list-of-shows
2019-02-03T03:15:42Z johnjay: *shoes
2019-02-03T03:15:52Z johnjay: but if you have any good book recs i'd like to hear it
2019-02-03T03:15:58Z johnjay: post SCIP of course
2019-02-03T03:16:15Z jcowan: None of that now.  I am, at most, your brother Joseph.
2019-02-03T03:16:48Z johnjay: well, let's say in a list of schemers you're the first of that list
2019-02-03T03:16:59Z johnjay: first among equals i think is the term
2019-02-03T03:18:51Z johnjay: anyway the point is scip is pretty much all i know
2019-02-03T03:19:02Z johnjay: and it's hard to just start reading people's code repositories
2019-02-03T03:20:01Z jcowan: If you must.  Well, as to books I can only give you the common wisdom:  SICP and How To Design Programs, and The Scheme Programming Language, and Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days, and The Little Schemer and its successors.  But see which of these suits you, for no book is good for everyone.
2019-02-03T03:20:24Z johnjay: right
2019-02-03T03:20:36Z johnjay: i think someone else mentioned lisp in small pieces. that might not be scheme related though
2019-02-03T03:20:59Z jcowan: It is, but it's probably over your head as yet.  Parts of it are certainly over my head.
2019-02-03T03:21:28Z friscosam: Lisp in small pieces is really an implementor's book
2019-02-03T03:21:35Z jcowan: But there is nothing wrong with Practical Common Lisp and Common Lisp: A Gentle Intro
2019-02-03T03:21:54Z jcowan: "Take what you can use and leave the rest."
2019-02-03T03:23:28Z friscosam: Realm of Racket is an ok book too.  Obvs not 100% scheme.
2019-02-03T03:26:05Z Zipheir: The Little books are indeed excellent.
2019-02-03T03:28:28Z friscosam: the 3rd Ed. of The Scheme Programming Language is a good guide/reference for Chez/R5RS
2019-02-03T03:28:54Z friscosam: The 4th Ed. is updated for R6RS so may or may not be applicable.
2019-02-03T03:29:19Z johnjay: hrm RoR is a no-starch book. not sure if that's good or bad
2019-02-03T03:29:57Z friscosam: It was "written by freshmen for freshmen" so take from that what you will
2019-02-03T03:30:39Z friscosam: Although Matthias Felleisen co-wrote it with them
2019-02-03T03:30:52Z Zipheir: If it's anything like Land Of Lisp, it's probably fun but messy
2019-02-03T03:30:57Z friscosam: (he also cowrote most of the Little books)
2019-02-03T03:32:07Z Zipheir: The first two (Little and Seasoned), IIRC
2019-02-03T03:32:28Z friscosam: "most" :)
2019-02-03T03:33:40Z Zipheir: That's what, 33% of them?
2019-02-03T03:34:14Z Zipheir: Reasoned, Prover, A Little Java, Typer are the others.
2019-02-03T03:34:44Z friscosam: He also cowrote Little MLer
2019-02-03T03:37:17Z johnjay: i was wondering about this myself earlier
2019-02-03T03:37:30Z johnjay: aristotle's works dont survive, just notes made by his students
2019-02-03T03:37:42Z johnjay: is "written by freshmen for freshmen" perhaps the best approach?
2019-02-03T03:38:36Z johnjay: ah a sample chapter: https://nostarch.com/download/samples/Realm_ch14.pdf
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2019-02-03T03:39:15Z Zipheir: For some definition of 'freshman'...
2019-02-03T03:39:53Z johnjay: my other thought was for a freshmen to write for freshmen but with some input from a master
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2019-02-03T05:45:41Z siraben: Has anyone managed to get geiser to work over SSH?
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2019-02-03T07:11:27Z friscosam: jcowan: not that it should be used, but Racket does support define-macro https://docs.racket-lang.org/compatibility/defmacro.html
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2019-02-03T13:12:05Z amz3: apparantly, guile 3 will go racket instead of scheme :S
2019-02-03T13:13:59Z wasamasa: source
2019-02-03T13:14:15Z wasamasa: a little early for april's fools, no
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2019-02-03T13:14:58Z amz3: this was "proposed" at fosdem, both talks that deal about it did not publish the slides.
2019-02-03T13:15:47Z wasamasa: https://www.wingolog.org/pub/fosdem-2019-guile-3-slides.pdf
2019-02-03T13:16:04Z wasamasa: this is as if firefox were to announce to use chrome as rendering engine
2019-02-03T13:16:05Z amz3: here is an explanation: It’s about growing the Guile language to get a little closer to Racket.  This would make the language a little more attractive and unlock the use of existing Racket libraries for Guile projects
2019-02-03T13:16:25Z wasamasa: it would also kill off guilemacs
2019-02-03T13:17:44Z wasamasa: this can only be a joke because obviously nobody thought about what exactly makes guile attractive to people
2019-02-03T13:17:48Z wasamasa: *racket
2019-02-03T13:18:06Z wasamasa: great docs, big community
2019-02-03T13:18:25Z wasamasa: why would I switch to something looking like racket when I can have the real thing?
2019-02-03T13:20:46Z amz3: racketification doesn't mean racket frontend on top of guile compiler tower, it might mean adopt some racket language construct
2019-02-03T13:21:12Z amz3: I am not sure what I will do now. I am disapointed by those announcements.
2019-02-03T13:22:14Z wasamasa: well, if it's about adding a racket library, I don't see what the big deal is
2019-02-03T13:22:23Z wasamasa: it's up to you whether to use their funny loop macro or not
2019-02-03T13:22:44Z amz3: I don't like their loop macro, also someone implemented for guile already
2019-02-03T13:28:01Z amz3: at least I hope guile 3 will have threads
2019-02-03T13:28:07Z amz3: I mean POSIX threads
2019-02-03T13:30:59Z amz3: I think I will go back doing javascript
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2019-02-03T14:26:16Z jcowan: It says to model the "front end" on Racket, but it doesn't say what that means.
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2019-02-03T16:52:26Z amz3: nobody really know what is going to happen
2019-02-03T16:53:28Z rain1: I don't like it
2019-02-03T16:53:36Z rain1: they're probably going to remove set-car! and set-cdr!
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2019-02-03T17:07:49Z rain1: what if '[a b c] was notation for arrays/vectors
2019-02-03T17:08:01Z rain1: and [arr 3] ways for array indexing
2019-02-03T17:14:40Z jcowan: I posted to #guile but got only silence so far
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2019-02-03T17:15:10Z amz3: so it is not only me..
2019-02-03T17:15:13Z jcowan: I suspect it just means having a DrGuile
2019-02-03T17:15:43Z amz3: well a big news like that would have deserved more than a footnote
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2019-02-03T17:22:44Z rain1: im sure they'll explain more when they get back from FOSDEM
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2019-02-03T17:29:48Z jcowan: One can hope
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2019-02-04T05:34:45Z siraben: jcowan:  what did you post to #guile ?
2019-02-04T05:39:39Z jcowan: Here''s the reply I got:
2019-02-04T05:40:01Z jcowan: <rekado_> jcowan: it means to evolve the Guile language, so that it gains more goodies that people like in Racket.
2019-02-04T05:40:01Z jcowan: \this is “frontend work” in that it doesn’t really need compiler work.
2019-02-04T05:41:07Z jcowan: I asked if this implies DrGuile but haven't heard back
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2019-02-04T06:25:18Z siraben: jcowan:  what do you mean by a DrGuile?
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2019-02-04T07:52:02Z ManDay: I'm still wondering whether there is a solution without redundancies to the following problem, and I tend to think that No. Write a recursion over a list L of elements e, which find the minimal (f e) among those for which (g e) is #t.
2019-02-04T07:53:03Z ecraven: what do you mean by "redundancy"? you only need to iterate over the list once, calculate (g e), if it is #t, calculate (f e) and compare it to the previous minimal value
2019-02-04T07:54:12Z ManDay: ecraven: Redundancy in the sense that the code "repeats" a certain part. Let me give an example of one way to argue that:
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2019-02-04T07:57:32Z ManDay: In order to both, evaluate (f e) and [potentially] pass (f e) down the recursion as the new minimum fore future comparison without redundancy, (f e) must be bound to a variable in a (let). That (let) must therefore embrace at least the branch of the recursion where (f e) is the new minium. But (f e) must not be evaluated (because it's ill-defined) unless (g e). Therefore, we need another (if) and have two [redundant] occurences of th
2019-02-04T07:57:36Z ManDay: NOT the new minimum.
2019-02-04T07:58:12Z ecraven: that was cut off.. two [redundant] occurences of th ???
2019-02-04T07:58:32Z ManDay: two [redundant] occurences of the recursive call where (f e) is NOT the new minimum.
2019-02-04T07:58:40Z ManDay: Let me write that version in code, one minute please
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2019-02-04T08:05:40Z ecraven: quick and dirty version: http://ix.io/1zZJ
2019-02-04T08:06:03Z ManDay: ecraven: yes, there you have three times (loop ) - that's what I mean by redundant
2019-02-04T08:06:07Z ManDay: here is what I meant:
2019-02-04T08:06:40Z ManDay: https://ideone.com/eIPTMe
2019-02-04T08:08:02Z ManDay: "Non redundant" in that sense would be if one could use a single "binary" (if) to decide for one of the two semantic branches (new minimum or not) in two branches of actual code.
2019-02-04T08:08:26Z ManDay: (which, in all other regards, can be done by using the appropriate boolean logic)
2019-02-04T08:08:57Z ManDay: But this is made impossible in our case because of the non-redundancy requirement for (f e) and its binding in a (let)
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2019-02-04T08:19:37Z ManDay: Not sure whether you've gone silent because you don't know a solution or because I appear to have lost my mind...
2019-02-04T08:19:51Z ecraven: no, I understand, but I don't think this is fixable (except with some macros)
2019-02-04T08:20:08Z ManDay: I see
2019-02-04T08:20:24Z ecraven: also, I don't think removing this duplication would make things clearer
2019-02-04T08:21:08Z ManDay: Perhaps not (since it can't be removed we will never know, I suppose), but I'm just generally opposed to redundancies and try to have as few as possible
2019-02-04T08:21:27Z ManDay: Tends to do make things clearer more than it does not, I think
2019-02-04T08:21:33Z ecraven: which is laudable ;) but *some* redundancy imho is ok, sometimes ;)
2019-02-04T08:21:34Z ManDay: At least in my opinion
2019-02-04T08:21:39Z ManDay: I guess ^^
2019-02-04T08:22:28Z ecraven: well, in the end, the reader has to understand that `recurse' is called with different arguments
2019-02-04T08:22:42Z ecraven: there are different ways of expressing that, but not all are equally simple to understand for the reader
2019-02-04T08:23:21Z ecraven: myself, I prefer (if .. (foo ...) (foo ...)) to (foo (if .. ... ...)) if the `if' expression is complicated
2019-02-04T08:23:42Z ManDay: Yes, fwiw, one can flip the situation around and get rid of the redundant call but then have to evaluate (f e) twice
2019-02-04T08:24:06Z ManDay: (that's not the question of choice that you've just pointed out, though)
2019-02-04T08:24:47Z ManDay: Actually, I suppose I like that better.
2019-02-04T08:25:19Z ManDay: It's essentially (if (and (g e) (< (f e) current-min)) ... ...) then
2019-02-04T08:25:31Z ManDay: Looks nicer, less indent, too :)
2019-02-04T08:25:42Z ecraven: I've hit cases like this, but I've never thought of an abstraction that I'd actually like to use for it
2019-02-04T08:25:55Z ecraven: you could write a macro, but imho that would be harder to understand than the actual code :-/
2019-02-04T08:26:18Z ManDay: I concur. macros are not my thing anyway
2019-02-04T08:28:35Z ManDay: W.r.t. your example, in a great many cases you'd end up alternating more than one argument to (foo), anyway, so the first remains the only choice.
2019-02-04T08:29:06Z ManDay: Well... not "the only", but probably the most reasonable.
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2019-02-04T12:34:01Z jcowan: siraben: I mean a Guile-specific GUI-based IDE (that's not redundant because Emacs) generally similar to DrRacket.
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2019-02-04T13:07:57Z amz3: a thread was started in guile-devel mailing list about guile 3. No official statement was made by maintainers http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-02/msg00002.html
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2019-02-04T14:17:14Z civodul: "no official statement" :-)
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2019-02-04T14:45:24Z civodul posts an official statement ;-)
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2019-02-04T15:12:47Z amz3: guile 3 video is online https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/guile3fasterprograms/
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2019-02-04T15:14:31Z amz3: no much new thing inside it
2019-02-04T15:14:34Z amz3: IMO
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2019-02-04T15:47:33Z ManDay: Does anyone know whether Guile experts / dev (or just fluent users) hang out around somewhere?
2019-02-04T15:48:07Z ManDay: I'd just love to understand what's the deal with these backtraces full of underscores and the local stackframes which are missing 90% of my variables but include stuff I have never seen
2019-02-04T15:48:25Z ManDay: (contrary to the self-explanatory examples given in the docs, where no mention of such things is made)
2019-02-04T15:49:02Z rain1: they are in #guile
2019-02-04T15:49:29Z ManDay: Oh thanks
2019-02-04T15:49:47Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/a095c03a5964 heres my minimum by function
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2019-02-04T16:00:45Z ManDay: Hrm rain1 I'm afraid I'm not as blown away by that ;-/
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2019-02-04T16:49:00Z gwatt: ManDay: https://pastebin.com/NyQWPnTw
2019-02-04T16:49:04Z gwatt: I think that's what you want
2019-02-04T16:49:17Z gwatt: and he's gone...
2019-02-04T16:51:30Z rain1: that returns (f elt) i thougth we wanted elt
2019-02-04T16:53:49Z gwatt: depends who pasted code :-p
2019-02-04T17:00:56Z gwatt: But in ManDay's ideone link, the code wants to return (f x), not x
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2019-02-04T17:05:21Z rain1: my idea was to tuck g and f away into a single function
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2019-02-04T17:31:21Z jcowan: Ludovic posted that among the things he likes about Racket are Typed Racket, DrRacket, and the large library.
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2019-02-04T17:35:34Z rain1: I've been thinking about doing a v2 of tarot
2019-02-04T17:35:48Z rain1: general improvements but also supporting [] {} syntax for vectors and hashtables
2019-02-04T17:36:28Z ecraven: [] instead of #()? is that really worth the effort?
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2019-02-04T18:03:19Z gwatt: I like being able to interchange ( and [ for clarity.
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2019-02-04T18:12:00Z aeth: I personally find that using special syntax over a short macro (so {k v} instead of (hash k v)) isn't generally worth it because then tool support isn't great. Paredit barely handles stuff like #(...) already. Iirc, if you had hash tables as #h() then paredit would by default want it to be like #h () unless you explicitly disable paredit-space-for-delimiter-predicates.
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2019-02-04T18:12:35Z aeth: You also get things like messed up indentation. My example macro hash will indent properly when you have many k's and v's over many lines.
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2019-02-04T18:14:38Z aeth: As for mixing () and [], that also can interfere with structured refactoring of the code (so C-k to kill a group of s-expressions to then yank somewhere else) unless it's semantically restricted (like to be used in a let). Well, the latter still might have occasional issues, but less frequently. Although idk, maybe there's a paredit command to toggle between []s and ()s
2019-02-04T18:14:44Z aeth: I never do that so I never needed to know
2019-02-04T18:15:45Z rain1: it's a good point about text editors
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2019-02-04T18:18:52Z Riastradh: Put point before (.  Type:  M-1 [ C-M-d M-s
2019-02-04T18:19:09Z aeth: Remember most of our tools are written in Emacs Lisp and designed to be used on the common part of Emacs Lisp, Common Lisp, and (mainstream) Scheme.
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2019-02-04T18:21:14Z aeth: Riastradh: Wow, that's worse than I expected. That would make a style alternating ()s and []s incredibly awkward to use the second you have to refactor unless you did further customization.
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2019-02-04T18:26:14Z rain1: I wonder how "indent current line" works in a text editor
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2019-02-04T18:26:35Z rain1: its kind of hard to go backwards from the current point, to roughly parse it to figrue out where to indent to
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2019-02-04T18:30:30Z gwatt: I often think that the best stupid indentation is "preserve previous line's leading whitespace"
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2019-02-04T18:33:47Z Riastradh: aeth: Put point before (.  Type:  C-x ( M-1 [ C-M-d M-s C-x ).  Now the key is `C-x e' instead.
2019-02-04T18:37:56Z Riastradh: It is true that paredit doesn't know all the wacky notation out there, and errs on the side of inserting a space in `#t (...)' rather than omitting a space in `#C(...)'.  Can customize this per-mode by setting `paredit-space-for-delimiter-predicates'; see, e.g., <https;//mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/paredit/paredit-cl-octothorpe.el>.
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2019-02-04T18:43:42Z Riastradh: rain1: Emacs goes back to the nearest `(' in the leftmost column.
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2019-02-05T00:19:27Z jcowan: gwatt: That's what the sam editor does, and also vi.
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2019-02-05T01:55:38Z gwatt: jcowan: I haven't used sam, but that's certainly not vim's default behavior
2019-02-05T01:56:31Z gwatt: I have used acme, and that's also not the default behavior
2019-02-05T01:57:48Z jcowan: if you :set ai that is what you get
2019-02-05T01:58:07Z jcowan: on sam you have to use -a at the shell command line
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2019-02-05T02:22:18Z gwatt: Ah, must be that the syntax files set smart indent as well
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2019-02-05T08:18:31Z amz3: hello, can anyone give the correct syntax import something with a prefix using r7rs? please?
2019-02-05T08:18:55Z amz3: I tried:    (prefix 'cx- (combinatorix))
2019-02-05T08:22:42Z amz3: got it: (prefix (combinatorix) cx-)
2019-02-05T08:23:22Z amz3: chibi says: (prefix <prefix-id> <import-spec>) at http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/
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2019-02-05T18:11:16Z jcowan: Yes, the Chibi doc is wrong
2019-02-05T18:13:59Z jcowan: filed issue for it
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2019-02-06T00:14:07Z sheenobu: I'm always trying, then realizing, i can't do much dynamic code loading in chez scheme. i can load C-based shared objects but library's compiled via chez scheme don't have much dynamism. Am i missing some feature or doing-it-wrong?
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2019-02-06T02:49:19Z gwatt: sheenobu: nope. chez scheme does not re-load libraries with import
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2019-02-06T02:52:17Z gwatt: You can use load and then import to re-load library files
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2019-02-06T03:24:48Z sheenobu: gwatt: thanks. looks like i can (load "file.so") then i can (expand `(import ,var)) . at least in the repl so far
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2019-02-06T10:28:04Z ManDay: How do I call (f) such that stdout is supressed/redirected to /dev/null?
2019-02-06T10:28:11Z ManDay: (if that's possible)
2019-02-06T10:28:37Z ManDay: Alternatively, call (f) and surpress its side-effects (but I don't expect such a thing to exist)
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2019-02-06T10:40:10Z ecraven: (with-output-to-file "/dev/null" f)
2019-02-06T10:41:06Z ManDay: perfect, thanks!
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2019-02-06T15:28:55Z ManDay: Can anyone recommend a good, concise read on mutability in scheme? I usually only write pure but as I'm hacking together some debugging things I find that my understanding of mutability is practically nonexistant (trying to update an element of an assoc list, for example)
2019-02-06T15:29:34Z ManDay: mutability, and the notion of "references", if that so exists
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2019-02-06T15:38:28Z ManDay: For example, I have no clue why (define x (list)) (set-cdr! x (list 1 2 3)) would not work
2019-02-06T15:38:48Z ManDay: Well, okay, now that was stupid
2019-02-06T15:39:26Z ManDay: But actually I wonder how to add to an (assoc) list
2019-02-06T15:39:44Z pjb: As you just saw, you cannot in general.
2019-02-06T15:40:15Z pjb: assoc lists are designed to be used immutably: (let ((new-alist (cons :new-k (cons :new-val old-alist)))) …)
2019-02-06T15:40:51Z pjb: Then of course, you can mutate a structure or a cons cell that refers to an a-list.
2019-02-06T15:41:23Z pjb: (define x (list 'my-a-list)) (set-cdr! x (cons :new-k (cons :new-val  (cdr x))))
2019-02-06T15:41:56Z ManDay: I guess I should just stick to pure or at least the trivial set!s - this doesn't seem to be worth the hassle ;-/
2019-02-06T15:42:19Z ManDay: (essentially what you said about using a set!)
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2019-02-06T17:00:01Z ecraven: hm.. char-set:whitespace from srfi-14 should include a lot more characters :-/
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2019-02-06T17:36:42Z jcowan: yes, the definitions given in the SRFI are woefully obsolete; I think they should be understood as "living" definitions that map the Unicode categories
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2019-02-06T19:23:02Z amz3: does the r7rs benchmark r7rs support or performance?
2019-02-06T19:23:11Z amz3: sorry
2019-02-06T19:23:14Z ecraven: performance
2019-02-06T19:23:18Z amz3: ok tx
2019-02-06T19:23:24Z ecraven: well, the one at https://ecraven.github.com/r7rs-benchmarks does
2019-02-06T19:23:34Z ecraven: https://ecraven.github.com/r7rs-coverage wants to do the other thing
2019-02-06T19:23:42Z ecraven: (though it doesn't do very well so far)
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2019-02-06T19:29:48Z amz3: tx for running those programs
2019-02-06T19:30:14Z ecraven: well, I should work a lot more on them :-/
2019-02-06T19:30:31Z ecraven: also, keep in mind there are some bugs still, not everything is entirely correct :-/
2019-02-06T19:31:37Z amz3: maybe still it is useful for the community
2019-02-06T19:32:49Z ecraven: I hope it is
2019-02-06T19:32:55Z ecraven: and most things are correct
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2019-02-06T19:34:04Z q9929t: I have gone through Simply Scheme. Now I am working on The Little Schemer and will follow up with The seasoned schemer. Would that be enough to have a decent command on Scheme ?
2019-02-06T19:34:37Z wasamasa: it depends, did you actually write scheme programs?
2019-02-06T19:34:46Z q9929t: Of course I did.
2019-02-06T19:35:07Z q9929t: I solved most of the examples from Simply Scheme.
2019-02-06T19:36:37Z amz3: what decent means anyway? the point of programming is achieving your goals, set you a goal, see if you can achieve it.
2019-02-06T19:37:16Z wasamasa: I can personally recommend solving real-world problems, that way you see how much you've left to do
2019-02-06T19:38:33Z q9929t: wasamasa: can you recommend some real- world projects based of of scheme
2019-02-06T19:38:59Z wasamasa: a popular one is writing an irc bot, using only a socket library
2019-02-06T19:39:15Z q9929t: ok
2019-02-06T19:39:25Z ecraven: write a small game
2019-02-06T19:39:28Z ecraven: games are fun ;)
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2019-02-06T19:47:27Z wasamasa: the classic for scheme is to write your own interpreter/compiler
2019-02-06T19:47:32Z wasamasa: but they're gone :<
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2019-02-06T20:02:00Z amz3: how are macro expanded during compilation?
2019-02-06T20:02:41Z amz3: I understand the reader will convert "strings" into ast but then it is all blurry
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2019-02-06T20:05:47Z ecraven: macros will modify the ast
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2019-02-06T20:06:21Z ecraven: "modify" is maybe the wrong word, they will lead to the ast being generated differently
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2019-02-06T20:18:21Z amz3: but the code of the macro is interpreted? that means there is an interpreter in the mix
2019-02-06T20:18:42Z amz3: when I read the guile code, I fail to find the code of the interpreter that primeval macros
2019-02-06T20:19:47Z ecraven: macros are "evaluated" at compile time, normally
2019-02-06T20:20:08Z ecraven: look at lisp in small pieces, they explain it. maybe SICP does too, I don't quite remember. maybe not?
2019-02-06T20:20:41Z amz3: sorry, of course lisp in small pieces might have the answer
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2019-02-06T20:41:54Z rain1: hi folks
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2019-02-06T21:08:50Z amz3: o/
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2019-02-07T01:27:42Z friscosam: I don't remember SICP talking about macros at all. Mostly it tackles computation and (ab)using lambda
2019-02-07T01:31:10Z friscosam: ok SICP has 2 pages about "Derived expressions" which is pretty much all it says about macros.
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2019-02-07T06:16:18Z ecraven: LiSP is good for that, I think
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2019-02-07T08:32:07Z siraben: SICP would be half the length if they used pattern matching and macros.
2019-02-07T08:35:04Z mario-goulart: or perl one-liners
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2019-02-07T09:19:57Z aeth: or APL
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2019-02-07T09:25:00Z ecraven: cd
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2019-02-07T10:03:52Z ManDay: Another cosmetic problem I'm having: (if a (if b x1 y) (if c x2 z)) , also, logically we have c => b - now is there a "beautiful" way to re-arrange those 4 branches with an (if ... x1 x2)?
2019-02-07T10:04:03Z ManDay: (just in case you're bored)
2019-02-07T10:05:23Z ManDay: Fwiw, from the booleans, it could be (if (and b (or a c)) (if a x1 x2) ...) but that's not beautiful enough for my taste...
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2019-02-07T11:05:40Z amz3: hey
2019-02-07T11:06:37Z amz3: anyone knows about a solution to the problem I posted on comp.lang.scheme
2019-02-07T11:06:40Z amz3: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.scheme/7QmXI_jJ34g
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2019-02-07T15:43:01Z friscosam: ecraven: oh yeah LiSP has a chapter about macros and towers, unfortunately it only spends 2 pages on hygiene and not much talk about implementing hygiene.
2019-02-07T15:43:33Z ecraven: friscosam: hm.. I don't know of any book that deals with implementing macros, but there are a ton of papers
2019-02-07T15:43:57Z ecraven: readscheme had many  http://library.readscheme.org/
2019-02-07T15:44:14Z friscosam: yeah
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2019-02-07T15:49:33Z ecraven: ah, I wish we had displaced strings (and vectors) :-/
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2019-02-07T15:56:53Z friscosam: ?
2019-02-07T15:57:04Z ecraven: strings that are aliases for parts of longer strings
2019-02-07T15:57:13Z ecraven: so you have a 10mb string, and you create another string that aliases the first 1mb
2019-02-07T15:57:30Z ecraven: that'd be relevant for more efficient parsing, for example
2019-02-07T15:57:33Z ecraven: less duplication of data
2019-02-07T15:57:42Z ecraven: especially relevant for bytevectors :-/
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2019-02-07T15:59:19Z friscosam: ah yes strings with sharing
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2019-02-07T16:05:46Z friscosam: I've tried to build libs like that before, what makes it much easier is having the stdlib vector/string functions take in optional offset and length parameters
2019-02-07T16:06:38Z ecraven: yea, but that does not actually solve the problem
2019-02-07T16:06:52Z friscosam: otherwise you are either realizing (taking the substring) of the underlying data to use a regular function OR roll your own versions of those functions
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2019-02-07T16:18:36Z amz3: readscheme.org doesn't work, it redirects to http://cultureua.com/
2019-02-07T16:19:11Z amz3: or is that just me
2019-02-07T16:20:41Z ggole: It's been out for a while now. They forgot to (or didn't care to) renew the domain.
2019-02-07T16:20:51Z amz3: sad
2019-02-07T16:21:26Z ecraven: ah, sorry, I seem to have it in /etc/hosts, it still works
2019-02-07T16:21:40Z ecraven: 212.110.186.28 readscheme.org library.readscheme.org repository.readscheme.org
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2019-02-07T16:24:08Z ggole: I get very simple page with a circular logo at that address.
2019-02-07T16:24:41Z amz3: you must put the ip in /etc/hosts
2019-02-07T16:24:45Z ecraven: yes, you need to use the right hostname in the request, thus /etc/hosts
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2019-02-07T16:26:57Z ggole: aha
2019-02-07T16:27:19Z ggole: Thanks for the pointer.
2019-02-07T16:37:21Z wasamasa: no mirrors so far?
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2019-02-07T16:38:33Z ecraven: not sure, I have mirrored it, but not put it online
2019-02-07T16:42:21Z wasamasa: how big is the mirror?
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2019-02-07T16:46:59Z ecraven: 1.4G
2019-02-07T16:47:23Z ecraven: I pulled it a few months ago, not sure whether anything changed since then
2019-02-07T16:47:55Z wasamasa: hm, then hosting will be more a bandwidth, less of a storage issue
2019-02-07T16:48:58Z ecraven: probably
2019-02-07T16:49:03Z ecraven: no idea how much it is actually used
2019-02-07T16:50:52Z wasamasa: yeah, I'm probably overestimating how many schemers look at it :D
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2019-02-07T17:09:45Z rain1: hey how would i make a s-expression where you can click on a symbol in it and that part expands?
2019-02-07T17:10:03Z rain1: meant for #racket
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2019-02-07T19:42:02Z jcowan: ecraven: SRFI 135 texts provide that kind of sharing, but bound it so that, say, a small shared substring of 10 characters does not allow a 10M-character string that is otherwise garbage to be retained (which is a problem in Java, e.g.)
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2019-02-07T20:46:25Z friscosam: jcowan: how does that work?  Do texts do some book keeping amongst parents/children?
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2019-02-07T20:56:52Z jcowan: I'm not sure how that works
2019-02-07T21:04:40Z Zipheir: Which schemes have implemented 135 thus far?
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2019-02-07T21:23:09Z jcowan: Zipheir: It should Just Work on every R7RS system.  It would be trivial to port it to R6RS by changing the library and record definitions.  R5RS systems should also be able to use it if they have bytevectors/u8vectors.
2019-02-07T21:27:52Z jcowan: Here are the sharing rules for the sample implementation of SRFI 135:
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2019-02-07T21:31:24Z jcowan: share the full chunks of the *longest* text provided it contains at least 128 characters, it contains at least half the characters of the result, and its characters start at offset zero.
2019-02-07T21:31:24Z jcowan: Share the full chunks of the *first* text provided it contains at least 128 characters and its characters start at offset zero.
2019-02-07T21:31:24Z jcowan: Other tests are possible but would take more time than they are worth.
2019-02-07T21:32:58Z Zipheir: Very nice.
2019-02-07T21:33:05Z Zipheir: jcowan: Thanks!
2019-02-07T21:34:57Z friscosam: jcowan: thanks
2019-02-07T21:35:16Z friscosam: more portable and less magical than I thought
2019-02-07T21:35:46Z jcowan: Basically a text is a vector that contains either strings or bytevectors, and if bytevectors, characters are encoded either in UTF-8 or UTF-16.
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2019-02-07T22:20:22Z ecraven: jcowan: I think the most useful case for displacement would be bytevectors, for parsing network data and files
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2019-02-07T22:39:51Z jcowan: A simple approach is just to have a record like (bytevector start end).
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2019-02-08T04:32:31Z volkov: i was refered to here by #lisp because i mistakenly thought SICP had lisp exercises
2019-02-08T04:33:45Z volkov: I know some Python syntax, i can understand variable, for and do/while loops. Is SICP for me? Can I make it bros?
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2019-02-08T05:02:21Z permagreen: Well, SICP is meant to be an introduction to programming, so probably. Though, that said, it's an introduction to programming that has a fairly different perspective from most intros and has you writing derivatives in the first chapter, so there's that
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2019-02-08T05:04:05Z edgar-rft: volkov: SICP teaches computer programming in general and uses scheme for its examples and exercises. You an even learn how to write better Python programs from SICP :-) I'm not a real Scheme expert myself, I only wanted to tell that this channel isn't dead. In the USA for example it's just in the middle of the night, so it may take some hours until this channel becomes more active.
2019-02-08T05:05:52Z volkov: permagreen: you mean i need calculus foundation beforehand? any recommendations?
2019-02-08T05:10:12Z permagreen: Not necessarily. It uses calculating derivatives to show how you can accomplish high level tasks with relative ease. It was written with MIT students in mind, so I think the assumption was they were likely to be dealing with calculus elsewhere in their lives, making something like teaching a computer how to calculate derivatives a very practical example of the power of programming
2019-02-08T05:11:51Z permagreen: But the book is available for free, so really just give it a go and see if it works for you. Nothing to lose but your time
2019-02-08T05:12:10Z Zipheir: volkov: SICP doesn't require a lot of background knowledge so much as it demands maturity and patience.
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2019-02-08T05:13:36Z Zipheir: volkov: It also depends on what your goals are. There are better ways to learn Scheme than SICP, for one thing.
2019-02-08T05:17:26Z volkov: Zipheir: i want to learn CS. linear path laid out by https://teachyourselfcs.com
2019-02-08T05:17:37Z volkov: i dont want to be a clueless script kiddie noob any more
2019-02-08T05:18:41Z volkov: some people saying is #lisp to not learn SICP (it teaches strange OOP concepts, etc..i dont know what that means), so what is good book if not SICP
2019-02-08T05:19:36Z Zipheir: Heh
2019-02-08T05:19:40Z volkov: Zipheir: i am mature. i am what they call an Expert Beginner. i know syntax, arrays, modules, git, npm, etc.
2019-02-08T05:19:45Z Zipheir: I love SICP, but some people hate it.
2019-02-08T05:20:17Z volkov: Zipheir: MIT also switched to Python. i am mature in my thought that i want to learn what i am seeking to learn.
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2019-02-08T05:21:17Z Zipheir: So try SICP. Just don't worry about it too much. It's not like you have to prove you can do SICP to be a Real Programmer or something.
2019-02-08T05:21:53Z Zipheir: The Little Schemer is another classic that is often recommended in here.
2019-02-08T05:23:07Z volkov: Zipheir: i just want to learn CS :(
2019-02-08T05:23:14Z volkov: WHY IS EVERYBODY CONFUSING ME
2019-02-08T05:23:45Z Zipheir: Sorry? What is confusing?
2019-02-08T05:24:14Z volkov: i want to learn SICP so i can be far better programmer with intricate knowledge
2019-02-08T05:24:23Z volkov: but you are sayingn i dont have to learn SICP?
2019-02-08T05:25:04Z Zipheir: You don't have to read that particular book, no.
2019-02-08T05:25:05Z volkov: then this website teachyourselfcs.com says i have to learn SICP if i wnat to be true programmer
2019-02-08T05:25:13Z volkov: Zipheir: u mean any textbook will do?
2019-02-08T05:25:57Z volkov: sry for confusing u
2019-02-08T05:26:08Z volkov: i am in a distressed state. my father beats me
2019-02-08T05:26:10Z Zipheir: SICP is a book on computation. There are many, many books that cover a lot of the same topics.
2019-02-08T05:26:16Z volkov: im unemployed
2019-02-08T05:26:33Z volkov: thank u
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2019-02-08T05:41:41Z Jackie[m]: SICP really needs a revamp
2019-02-08T05:41:55Z Zipheir: In what way?
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2019-02-08T05:42:51Z Jackie[m]: Readable images
2019-02-08T05:42:57Z Jackie[m]: And modern look
2019-02-08T05:45:22Z Zipheir: The images in the HTML version could stand to have a few more pixels.
2019-02-08T05:46:32Z Jackie[m]: But yeah we need a new version
2019-02-08T05:46:39Z Zipheir: Pfft.
2019-02-08T05:46:50Z Zipheir: What about the _content_ needs improving?
2019-02-08T05:46:59Z Jackie[m]: And some suggestions on other scheme implementation
2019-02-08T05:47:19Z Jackie[m]: Like how to get scheme on android devices etc
2019-02-08T05:47:30Z Zipheir: Anyone driven away by lack of crazy fonts and HTML5 goodies wasn't interested in the first place.
2019-02-08T05:48:04Z Jackie[m]: Also why isn't there an offline version
2019-02-08T05:48:18Z Jackie[m]: Or a zip file containing the html files
2019-02-08T05:48:23Z Zipheir: There is a very nice edition someone put together...
2019-02-08T05:48:45Z Zipheir: Ah, right, sarabander https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pdf
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2019-02-08T05:49:39Z Jackie[m]: People should consider recommending that version
2019-02-08T05:50:09Z Zipheir: That's the top result for 'sicp pdf' on a web search.
2019-02-08T05:51:27Z Zipheir: As nice as it is, the HTML version is more convenient IMHO.
2019-02-08T05:51:29Z Jackie[m]: Also do any scheme implementation work with SICP
2019-02-08T05:51:58Z Zipheir: Jackie[m]: So you haven't done SICP yet? You're just complaining?
2019-02-08T05:52:50Z Jackie[m]: I have done it but I don't like how Scheme lacks portability
2019-02-08T05:53:17Z Jackie[m]: Like I don't want to be on the computer all day
2019-02-08T05:53:22Z Zipheir: Since it only uses a subset of Scheme, pretty much any implementation will do.
2019-02-08T05:53:54Z Jackie[m]: MIT Scheme should really support ARM64
2019-02-08T05:54:14Z Zipheir: Someone(TM) should do something about that.
2019-02-08T05:55:14Z dieggsy: Is there a kind of de facto standard reference for creating a scheme interpreter ? Mostly for educational purposes, but who knows. I've found peter norvig's articles on Lispy, was wondering if there are other good/better ones
2019-02-08T05:55:45Z dieggsy: not that i have any problem with his, just started reading it
2019-02-08T05:56:19Z Zipheir: dieggsy: This was helpful the first time I did one http://peter.michaux.ca/articles/scheme-from-scratch-introduction
2019-02-08T05:56:40Z Zipheir: dieggsy: It's not a reference, by any means. Sorry.
2019-02-08T05:56:49Z Jackie[m]: MIT Scheme just lacks portability
2019-02-08T05:57:26Z Jackie[m]: Like it should support any CPU today
2019-02-08T05:57:32Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Otherwise ... LiSP!
2019-02-08T05:57:56Z dieggsy: Zipheir: oh, cool thanks! - otherwise what now?
2019-02-08T05:58:11Z Zipheir: Jackie[m]: It's really disrespectful to say things like that here unless you have some intention of doing something to help.
2019-02-08T05:58:21Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Lisp In Small Pieces
2019-02-08T05:58:57Z Jackie[m]: I'm suggesting for more portability or at least, a scheme implementation for ARM devices
2019-02-08T05:59:19Z Jackie[m]: As lisp clearly lacks right now
2019-02-08T05:59:43Z Zipheir: dieggsy: What language are you writing in?
2019-02-08T06:00:47Z dieggsy: Jackie[m]: chicken works fine on my arm pandaboard FWIW
2019-02-08T06:01:05Z Jackie[m]: Scheme obviously
2019-02-08T06:01:18Z Jackie[m]: Also is chicken standalone?
2019-02-08T06:01:53Z Zipheir: You'll need a C compiler
2019-02-08T06:02:11Z dieggsy: Zipheir: i'm just now learning rust (which i like cause it's like C++ with functional/scheme-like ideas sprinkled in) so i thought i'd go with that
2019-02-08T06:02:27Z Jackie[m]: Yea does it accept clang
2019-02-08T06:02:39Z Jackie[m]: And termux
2019-02-08T06:02:44Z dieggsy: Jackie[m]: i've also built chicken in termux on a galaxy s8, yes
2019-02-08T06:02:53Z dieggsy: with clang
2019-02-08T06:03:25Z Jackie[m]: Clang is the de facto compiler for termux
2019-02-08T06:03:35Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Got it. Toy Schemes are definitely a good way to try out new languages :)
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2019-02-08T06:05:27Z Jackie[m]: Tfw there isn't still Java on termux
2019-02-08T06:05:59Z dieggsy: Zipheir: right. I'm not trying to build the next Chez, heh, but i've just always had some ideas for 'huh what if scheme was like this or that' and it would be cool to implement them while learning about writing an interpreter/more about scheme internals/a new language like rust
2019-02-08T06:06:25Z dieggsy: basically buliding my own flavor of scheme would be fun and educational i think
2019-02-08T06:06:54Z dieggsy: maybe it's a bit much at once, heh. i'll take baby steps
2019-02-08T06:07:12Z Zipheir: dieggsy: It's a great learning project.
2019-02-08T06:07:54Z dieggsy: Zipheir: damn, lisp in small pieces is kinda pricey
2019-02-08T06:08:10Z Zipheir: dieggsy: It's especially worth it to try to get the 'hard parts' (full TCO, at least) right.
2019-02-08T06:08:23Z dieggsy: absolutely
2019-02-08T06:08:32Z Zipheir: dieggsy: I know, it's ludicrously expensive.
2019-02-08T06:08:44Z dieggsy: Zipheir: lisp has given me an unhealthy obsession with full/proper TCO so i'm with you on thta
2019-02-08T06:10:19Z Jackie[m]: Lisp is nice....only if you are a geek at math
2019-02-08T06:10:25Z dieggsy: .. eh?
2019-02-08T06:10:34Z Jackie[m]: I'm honestly not too good at maths
2019-02-08T06:10:45Z dieggsy: lisp is nice for reasons beyond math
2019-02-08T06:11:10Z Jackie[m]: Like I never learned Calculus
2019-02-08T06:11:11Z Jackie[m]: Can you use lisp for non maths tho
2019-02-08T06:12:08Z Zipheir: Jackie[m]: I think Ada Lovelace said something about how computers could be used for things other than doing mathematics...
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2019-02-08T06:13:02Z dieggsy: Jackie[m]: yes? i love using scheme for just. any menial programming task. it's not always easy, but it's _always_ fun, heh. some schemes are more general purpose than others i suppose
2019-02-08T06:13:22Z Jackie[m]: that's why I never liked computer science
2019-02-08T06:13:42Z Jackie[m]: Since you need a ridiculous knowledge of math
2019-02-08T06:14:17Z Zipheir: Define 'ridiculous'. You can do computer science with basic algebra.
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2019-02-08T06:14:40Z Jackie[m]: I just like math without the calculus
2019-02-08T06:14:57Z Jackie[m]: Since you can only get calculus at college and not at high school
2019-02-08T06:15:23Z Zipheir: Calculus is extremely useful, but it's not essential to learning CS.
2019-02-08T06:17:04Z Jackie[m]: Also Trigonometry in CS is nonsense
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2019-02-08T06:17:15Z Zipheir: Actually, knowledge of the foundations of mathematics, set theory, symbolic logic, etc. would probably be better to have than just freshman calculus and nothing else...
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2019-02-08T06:17:45Z dieggsy: i feel like math is good for you in the exact same way programming is
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2019-02-08T06:18:19Z Zipheir: In a Curry-Howard world, it is indeed the exact same way. :)
2019-02-08T06:18:22Z dieggsy: it's a language for expressing... how to get things done lol. they just happen to be numerical things in math, but i feel like the skills developed in mathematical thinking are applicable to like life generally
2019-02-08T06:18:22Z Jackie[m]: Its just that I learned math in my own way and not formally
2019-02-08T06:18:38Z Jackie[m]: Khan academy, math is fun etc
2019-02-08T06:18:50Z Jackie[m]: I'm like rushing
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2019-02-08T06:19:04Z amz3: o/
2019-02-08T06:19:15Z Zipheir: amz3: Hey!
2019-02-08T06:19:27Z Jackie[m]: I'd skip my actual school's math and already learn calculus real quick
2019-02-08T06:20:03Z Zipheir: Jackie[m]: There's nothing wrong with teaching yourself, IMHO, since it hopefully indicates that you really are interested in the subject.
2019-02-08T06:20:47Z Jackie[m]: I don't want to wait for 4 years
2019-02-08T06:21:07Z Jackie[m]: I'd learn calculus after a year
2019-02-08T06:23:48Z Jackie[m]: Its really bullshit to wait for 4 years
2019-02-08T06:23:49Z Zipheir: There's no reason to be worried about calculus, even if most teachers seem to be pretty poor at teaching it.
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2019-02-08T06:25:37Z Jackie[m]: I just feel like schools don't really give you much information
2019-02-08T06:25:53Z Jackie[m]: than on the internet
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2019-02-08T06:33:05Z Zipheir: Eh, at least WRT math a lot of the Web sources just provide For Dummies explanations.
2019-02-08T06:33:23Z Zipheir: Except Wikipedia, which frequently has the opposite problem...
2019-02-08T06:38:20Z siraben: Wikipedia is the last place I go to to learn math, tbh. It's good for exploring though.
2019-02-08T06:38:34Z Jackie[m]: Or this
2019-02-08T06:38:53Z Jackie[m]: https://www.mathsisfun.com/triangle.html
2019-02-08T06:39:40Z Jackie[m]: Math is fun
2019-02-08T06:42:22Z Jackie[m] uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-02-08-14-41-59-90.png (155KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/ponies.im/917db62d1801e67a7a28dd056cbe0fcb >
2019-02-08T06:42:37Z Jackie[m]: Maxima is kinda easier than octave
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2019-02-08T06:50:03Z aeth: math is fun is... well it looks like middle school math
2019-02-08T06:50:17Z aeth: Wikipedia gives you stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_(mathematics)
2019-02-08T06:51:01Z aeth: I wonder if there's a mathisfun page for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_Nullstellensatz
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2019-02-08T06:53:50Z Jackie[m]: that's pretty advanced stuff
2019-02-08T06:53:57Z Zipheir: Math Is Fun: Monads
2019-02-08T06:53:57Z Jackie[m]: So its not necessary
2019-02-08T06:54:00Z Zipheir: lol
2019-02-08T06:54:46Z Jackie[m]: aeth: there's calculus on math is fun tho
2019-02-08T06:57:12Z Zipheir: It's not very good though, to judge by their 'Intro to Derivatives' page.
2019-02-08T06:57:27Z aeth: Jackie[m]: well, yeah, those sites tend to end with high school math
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2019-02-08T06:57:46Z aeth: (some people take calculus in high school)
2019-02-08T06:58:42Z aeth: It's usually not the main focus, e.g. on Khan Academy it took them years to get around to calculus exercises and they're still missing e.g. multivariable calculus exercises
2019-02-08T06:58:48Z Jackie[m]: I just think high school math is enough for CS
2019-02-08T06:58:51Z aeth: And the area with the most videos afaik is Algebra II on KA
2019-02-08T06:59:28Z aeth: Jackie[m]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_analysis
2019-02-08T06:59:32Z Jackie[m]: The thing I don't like about KA is the fact that there's interaction
2019-02-08T06:59:50Z Jackie[m]: I'm a person who would do stuff on paper
2019-02-08T06:59:58Z Jackie[m]: If there is such thing
2019-02-08T07:00:10Z Jackie[m]: And why videos
2019-02-08T07:00:21Z Jackie[m]: Text is appreciated for me
2019-02-08T07:00:29Z Zipheir: Indeed, screw videos.
2019-02-08T07:00:49Z edgar-rft lives in KA
2019-02-08T07:00:52Z aeth: Khan Academy has text, both as hints in their exercises and as text lessons
2019-02-08T07:01:00Z Zipheir: (Except of Abelson & Sussman lectures, etc.)
2019-02-08T07:01:21Z aeth: But the text lessons aren't everywhere. There are entire units with just videos
2019-02-08T07:01:42Z Jackie[m]: Videos can just make you impatient
2019-02-08T07:02:02Z Jackie[m]: This is why I relied MIF more
2019-02-08T07:02:08Z aeth: Anyway, I was just pointing out that Khan Academy has the same issue of... well... focusing on middle school math, with some before and some after, ending at advanced high school math.
2019-02-08T07:02:44Z aeth: Khan Academy doesn't even have that much depth in linear algebra since advanced high school math is usually Calc I and II at most
2019-02-08T07:02:56Z aeth: And you probably would prefer linear to calc in most computer contexts
2019-02-08T07:03:17Z aeth: Linear algebra is everywhere.
2019-02-08T07:04:01Z ecraven: jcowan: the problem with that record is that all *other* bytevector-* functions won't accept it
2019-02-08T07:04:05Z ecraven: (transparently)
2019-02-08T07:04:10Z ecraven: otherwise, it'd be great ;)
2019-02-08T07:04:23Z ecraven: all functions should be generic functions :P
2019-02-08T07:04:25Z Jackie[m]: I'm always in for a text version of their maths
2019-02-08T07:05:08Z Jackie[m]: I just hate the fact that I have to watch long ass videos
2019-02-08T07:06:23Z Zipheir: So read books instead! It's not as though writing books on math was just discovered in the last decade.
2019-02-08T07:07:06Z aeth: Zipheir: no, writing books on math was discovered in 1900 and was completed in 1980. Every math book since then is just a new edition or a reprint.
2019-02-08T07:07:59Z Zipheir: Heh.
2019-02-08T07:08:05Z aeth: as for books, just go to ##math and ask for recommendations
2019-02-08T07:09:39Z Jackie[m]: there's a lot of free books though, in archive.org
2019-02-08T07:10:18Z Zipheir: In particular, Dover books are great investments.
2019-02-08T07:10:44Z Zipheir: (and often on archive.org, as well)
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2019-02-08T13:16:09Z jcowan: ecraven: There are very few bytevector procedures in either version of R7RS that would have to be reimplemented (as opposed to just trivially shimmed) to support bytevector slices as well. The utf*->string procedures and bytevector-append could be portably implemented, but bytevector ports could not be (except in R6RS with its support for custom ports).
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2019-02-08T14:35:06Z amz3: I read halt SICP
2019-02-08T14:35:14Z amz3: I read halF SICP
2019-02-08T14:35:25Z amz3: I am less stupid
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2019-02-08T17:11:55Z jcowan: ecraven: It would be easy to construct such a SRFI if we had a name shorter than "bytevector slice" for these things.
2019-02-08T17:12:11Z jcowan: "subbytevector" also sucks
2019-02-08T17:12:25Z ecraven: well, ideally there would just be a special bytevector constructor for it :-/
2019-02-08T17:12:48Z ecraven: but I see what you mean
2019-02-08T17:13:01Z jcowan: yes, but you need to distinguish between the existing bytevector-length and  *-length that accepts either a bytevector or a slice
2019-02-08T17:13:18Z ecraven: couldn't it be like srfi-1, which just "overwrites" existing functions?
2019-02-08T17:14:36Z jcowan: The library system certainly allows that, but most SRFI 1 implementations just avoid the already-existing procedures, or import them from (rnrs base) or (scheme base).
2019-02-08T17:15:10Z jcowan: so far we have avoided this except for bytevector-copy, which has different semantics in R6RS and R7RS-small
2019-02-08T17:15:12Z ecraven: hm.. how does the library system allow that, by the way? shouldn't I get an error when I import an existing name?
2019-02-08T17:15:28Z jcowan: (import (except (scheme base) ...))
2019-02-08T17:15:42Z ecraven: that is .. unwieldy :P
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2019-02-08T17:20:47Z jcowan: It certainly can be.  See SRFI 152's section on implementations for the mess produced when you try to plug that SRFI into Chicken's existing messy string-related libraries.
2019-02-08T17:21:54Z ecraven: hm.. so the "best" solution would be yet another new name
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2019-02-08T17:55:33Z amz3: a new name, a new world ahead.
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2019-02-08T18:33:37Z gwatt: I think throwing an error over conflicting identifiers is better than just shadowing the previous imports, like in java or scala
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2019-02-08T19:20:48Z ecraven: gwatt: in general, yes, but it would be nice to have some way of saying (import (overriding (srfi :1))) or so, and just get them all
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2019-02-08T19:29:59Z gwatt: ecraven: What happens if you have multiple overriding that import the same identifier?
2019-02-08T19:30:08Z gwatt: Still an error in that case?
2019-02-08T19:30:21Z ecraven: no idea ;D I obviously haven't thought this fully through
2019-02-08T19:30:45Z ecraven: I just really dislike the way we have <foo>-length for *everything*, and <foo>-ref for everything too, ad infinitum
2019-02-08T19:31:28Z jcowan: Well, hopefully the predicate generic functions will deal with that.  I'm going to move them up from the Blue Edition to an earlier ballot, at least the machinery and conventions if not the specific functions to include.
2019-02-08T19:31:55Z ecraven: jcowan: I hope it's not just me constantly complaining about this.. if this is not a problem to anyone else, feel free to ignore me
2019-02-08T19:32:55Z jcowan: No, not at all.  My defense of Scheme's relentless monomorphism is basically that it allows you the flexibility to group things however you want to, without being bound to a specific class hierarchy or such (which would inevitably conflict with existing hierarchies).
2019-02-08T19:33:08Z jcowan: Allowing any predicate for dispatching fits very well with that.
2019-02-08T19:33:32Z ecraven: I understand that, but the problem is you don't have a (portable) *choice* of polymorphism, it's monomorphism or nothing
2019-02-08T19:33:46Z ecraven: after using predicate-based dispatch in a few small projects, I really like it
2019-02-08T19:34:18Z rain1: i have been thikning about that too like defining a ->foo instead of integer->foo char->foo etc.
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2019-02-08T19:34:46Z ecraven: I've defined a function `as', so (as "foo" 12)
2019-02-08T19:34:49Z ecraven: -> "12"
2019-02-08T19:34:55Z ecraven: the first argument is just there to define the "type"
2019-02-08T19:35:07Z ecraven: just add methods to that, works well :)
2019-02-08T19:35:27Z rain1: that's pretty nice
2019-02-08T19:36:07Z ecraven: well, you could create names, so (as 'integer "12") would work just as well... or maybe (as integer? "12") (though that looks a bit strange)
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2019-02-08T19:49:43Z friscosam: has anyone considered something like Racket's generic interfaces? https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/struct-generics.html
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2019-02-08T20:11:55Z daviid: what about clos, which is the model used by gauche and guile (to name two), [ for those interested in generic function based system, and wouldn't know already, here is a document which 'oeverview' its design  https://www.dreamsongs.com//Files/clos-overview.pdf ]
2019-02-08T20:12:40Z ecraven: both of these depend on some notion of `class' or `type', which is exactly *not* what we are talking about ;)
2019-02-08T20:12:56Z ecraven: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_dispatch
2019-02-08T20:13:01Z ecraven: (and its references)
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2019-02-08T20:59:48Z friscosam: I'm pretty sure the Racket system can support predicate dispatch
2019-02-08T21:00:20Z friscosam: Predicate dispatch is about type, the type that satisfies the predicate
2019-02-08T21:01:43Z ecraven: might be, clos definitely does not, without extensions
2019-02-08T21:03:56Z friscosam: yeah my clos is rusty.  You could hack around with the method lookup methods probably.
2019-02-08T21:04:10Z friscosam: I think that is the answer with many clos tricks
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2019-02-08T21:21:05Z aeth: ecraven: 'as' looks like a more general version of CL's float with the optional argument (since CL can have four float types, although it's typically two to three). e.g. (float 42 1d0) => 42d0
2019-02-08T21:22:01Z aeth: Using names is basically CL's coerce.
2019-02-08T21:22:36Z aeth: I don't think combining the two is a good idea because why if you *want* a symbol?
2019-02-08T21:23:24Z aeth: It looks like your order's exactly the opposite as CL's, any reason?
2019-02-08T21:24:41Z aeth: (as "foo" 12) looks to me like "\"foo\" as 12", which makes me think the order should be opposite. CL's name coerce makes it even clearer why they chose its order. (coerce 42 'double-float) is "coerce 42 to a double-float"
2019-02-08T21:27:26Z aeth: (A general conversion procedure is actually better than even CL's coerce because (coerce 42 'string) is invalid)
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2019-02-08T22:33:48Z jcowan: rain1: I'd recommend just calling it foo rather than ->foo (as in exact and inexact)
2019-02-08T22:34:02Z rain1: oh yeah nice idea
2019-02-08T22:35:01Z jcowan: ecraven: But you do have a portable choice of polymorphism, whether you use a generic framework or not.  It's when you already have an existing polymorphism system that you are stuck with it.
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2019-02-09T05:23:36Z ecraven: jcowan: only if you can implement your portable polymorphic framework efficiently in portable Scheme in the first place
2019-02-09T05:23:58Z jcowan shrugs
2019-02-09T05:24:18Z jcowan: efficient and portable often don't go together, but efficiency depends on the details of the implementation
2019-02-09T05:24:23Z ecraven: is there any srfi that specifies a function that lets me print a float with precision n?
2019-02-09T05:25:31Z jcowan: SRFI 48 (templates) or SRFI 159 (combinators, R7RS-large)
2019-02-09T05:25:42Z ecraven: thanks
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2019-02-09T21:45:58Z rain1: it's kinda messed up up how you can do #\n and #\newline
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2019-02-09T21:49:04Z rain1: i want an alternative to that
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2019-02-09T22:23:02Z Argon: rain1: what do you mean?
2019-02-09T22:23:38Z rain1: the lexical syntax has slighty ambiguity at this point #\n|
2019-02-09T22:23:45Z rain1: it is a (minor) complication
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2019-02-09T22:35:04Z Argon: rain1: i don't understand how it's ambiguous, you're not supposed to attempt to interpret the character by only reading one letter beyond the #\
2019-02-09T22:36:31Z rain1: perhaps you can understand me anyway
2019-02-09T22:41:27Z Zipheir: Ditto #\s #\space . It's a bit awkward.
2019-02-09T22:42:04Z rain1: one possibility is to use a special escape character, like C does
2019-02-09T22:42:24Z rain1: so #\\\ for backslash, #\\n for newline and #\x for one that doesn't need escaped. it's ugly though I don't think it's a good idea
2019-02-09T22:43:11Z Zipheir: Or, as some Schemer said, get rid of characters...
2019-02-09T22:43:25Z rain1: :O
2019-02-09T22:43:37Z rain1: thats a GOOD idea
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2019-02-10T00:18:08Z jcowan: Characters make little or no sense in a Unicode world, but standard Scheme is still stuck with them.
2019-02-10T00:18:15Z jcowan: (apt alliteration's artful aid)
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2019-02-10T08:17:37Z ecraven: jcowan: well, I think it's still useful to have some way to write literal codepoints.. so #\t is the codepoint for t
2019-02-10T08:18:14Z ecraven: but yes, given that you can't even depend on the return value of string-length, there's really not much use to characters :P
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2019-02-10T11:34:03Z amz3: I am gathering the r7rs libraries. I am missing (scheme box), (scheme ephemeron), (scheme format) and (scheme vector @)
2019-02-10T11:34:22Z amz3: is there an implementation of scheme format that the one I am most looking for
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2019-02-10T14:15:00Z jcowan: The (scheme vector @) libraries aren't available yet from the SRFI site and that's on me.
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2019-02-10T15:04:41Z jcowan: The others are all available at github via srfi.schemers.org, except for (scheme box) where an implementation is right in the SRFI.
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2019-02-10T15:27:16Z amz3: format is at https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/lib/chibi/show.sld
2019-02-10T15:27:18Z amz3: sorry for the noise
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2019-02-10T15:35:19Z jcowan: I don't think that one's quite conformant to the SRFI, is it?
2019-02-10T15:35:26Z jcowan: it depends on whether foof has updated it
2019-02-10T15:36:59Z Riastradh: #\[LATIN SMALL LETTER JCOWAN WITH ACUTE INSIGHT]
2019-02-10T15:37:21Z jcowan: Why, thank you.  But surely that should be an emoji.
2019-02-10T15:37:57Z Riastradh: I don't believe in emojis.
2019-02-10T15:39:18Z jcowan: Margaret Fuller:  "I accept the universe."  Thomas Carlyle: "Gad, she'd better."
2019-02-10T15:41:23Z outtabwz: lol
2019-02-10T15:41:25Z Riastradh: (Have etymologists determined the correct plural for emoji yet?  Is it emojis, or emojim, or emojopodes, or emojleupagus?)
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2019-02-10T15:46:00Z amz3: no, it is not conformant
2019-02-10T15:50:06Z jcowan: "Emoji" is the most usual plural, says AHD, but "emojis" is a secondary variant.  M-W gives them equal status, and the OED agrees.
2019-02-10T15:50:26Z jcowan: (Note that etymologists are irrelevant; it is lexicographers who have the data here.)
2019-02-10T15:51:09Z amz3: I mean show.sld require other thing from chibi
2019-02-10T15:51:19Z amz3: like chibi monad
2019-02-10T15:51:26Z Riastradh: lexicographer, n. a harmless drudge that busies himself in tracing the original and detailing the signification of words
2019-02-10T15:51:30Z Riastradh: etymologist, n. irrelevant
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2019-02-10T16:00:19Z Riastradh: mejja: OK, what'd I break this time?
2019-02-10T16:03:22Z mejja: Don't know.. (awaiting the mythical flag day)
2019-02-10T16:04:45Z Riastradh: Won't happen until after 10.1.6, at least.
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2019-02-10T16:33:53Z mejja: Riastradh, http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/Makefile.tools.in?h=riastradh-20181220-closentry-v6#n118
2019-02-10T16:33:54Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/CHYxrqmPTl
2019-02-10T16:34:01Z mejja: sfh is a typo, right?
2019-02-10T16:38:57Z Riastradh: No?
2019-02-10T16:39:24Z Riastradh: -s symlink, -f force, -h don't follow target
2019-02-10T16:40:36Z mejja: funny, my ln doesn't have -h
2019-02-10T16:40:57Z Riastradh: Bah, does GNU ln not have the obvious -h option or something?
2019-02-10T16:43:51Z fizzie: It's called -n there.
2019-02-10T16:44:29Z fizzie: Looks like the (OpenBSD) ln has -n "An alias for -h for compatibility with other operating systems" too.
2019-02-10T16:50:12Z Riastradh: mejja: Does ln -sfn work?
2019-02-10T16:50:22Z jcowan: Nothing mythical about it.  On Flag Day (June 14) 1966, Multics cut over from the older definition of ESC as #x7E to the modern definition.
2019-02-10T16:51:13Z Riastradh: itym 176 ftfy hth
2019-02-10T16:51:41Z Riastradh: mejja: Also don't hold your breath for NaN-tagging on this upcoming flag day.  Maybe for the next one.
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2019-02-10T18:14:56Z soegaard: Hi All. Any ideas for how to get this fixed?
2019-02-10T18:14:58Z soegaard: https://github.com/textmate/scheme.tmbundle/pull/9
2019-02-10T18:16:04Z soegaard: Tried the TextMate mailing list, but no answers so far:   http://textmate.1073791.n5.nabble.com/Merging-Pull-Request-td32093.html
2019-02-10T18:16:13Z soegaard: Perhaps others could chip in?
2019-02-10T18:35:08Z weinholt: chip'd
2019-02-10T18:35:20Z soegaard: thanks!
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2019-02-10T18:50:44Z amz3: weinholt: does akku merge directories? I mean I installed several srfi packages, do every srfi end up available? I doesn't seem like so
2019-02-10T18:51:32Z amz3: also how do I enable debug output of akku?
2019-02-10T18:52:30Z weinholt: amz3, "merge"? AKKU_LOG_LEVEL=debug or trace. "akku scan" will show you the files it found and what it thought of them.
2019-02-10T18:53:00Z amz3: tx, I know I should have read the code of akku before using it..
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2019-02-10T18:56:46Z weinholt: always a good idea
2019-02-10T18:57:34Z weinholt: i read all code that goes into akku's package index
2019-02-10T18:57:39Z amz3: [debug] Symlinking file ./srfi/:121.scm to .akku/lib/generators.sld
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2019-02-10T18:58:05Z amz3: so I symlinked :121.scm and akku does symlink it under the name of the original filename
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2019-02-10T19:01:12Z amz3: not sure what the fix is
2019-02-10T19:01:28Z weinholt: srfi/:121.scm is a symlink?
2019-02-10T19:01:46Z amz3: yes
2019-02-10T19:02:21Z weinholt: seems like a bug in that case
2019-02-10T19:05:36Z weinholt: can you please make a small test case (e.g. as a tarball) that reproduces it and submit an issue?
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2019-02-10T19:08:52Z amz3: I will look at it :)
2019-02-10T19:12:42Z weinholt: great
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2019-02-10T19:46:44Z amz3: it's not a bug in akku, akku takes the name of the library as defined in the (library (foobar) ...) or (define-library (foobar) ...) in r7rs. In my case the file as a module name of "generators" hence it is symlinked as "generators.scm"
2019-02-10T19:47:18Z amz3: this filename vs library name is complicated, anyway I can work around it
2019-02-10T19:48:54Z Riastradh: My memory is shot.  Is LETREC* distinguishable from all possible implementations of LETREC?
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2019-02-10T19:56:42Z Riastradh: Answer: yes, it is.
2019-02-10T19:56:55Z ecraven: do you have an example?
2019-02-10T19:58:58Z Riastradh: (let ((k 0)) (letrec ((x 1) (y (cwcc (lambda (k0) (set! k k0) #t)))) (if y (begin (set! x 2) (k #f)) x]
2019-02-10T19:59:08Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let ((k 0)) (letrec ((x 1) (y (cwcc (lambda (k0) (set! k k0) #t)))) (if y (begin (set! x 2) (k #f)) x)))
2019-02-10T19:59:14Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let ((k 0)) (letrec ((x 1) (y (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k0) (set! k k0) #t)))) (if y (begin (set! x 2) (k #f)) x)))
2019-02-10T19:59:14Z rudybot: Riastradh: your r5rs sandbox is ready
2019-02-10T19:59:15Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: cwcc: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2019-02-10T19:59:15Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 1
2019-02-10T19:59:19Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let ((k 0)) (letrec* ((x 1) (y (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k0) (set! k k0) #t)))) (if y (begin (set! x 2) (k #f)) x)))
2019-02-10T19:59:19Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: letrec*: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2019-02-10T19:59:37Z Riastradh: Well, anyway, with letrec* it returns 2.
2019-02-10T19:59:46Z Riastradh: rudybot: init racket
2019-02-10T19:59:49Z ecraven: so modulo continuations, they are the same?
2019-02-10T19:59:53Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2019-02-10T19:59:56Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval (let ((k 0)) (letrec* ((x 1) (y (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k0) (set! k k0) #t)))) (if y (begin (set! x 2) (k #f)) x)))
2019-02-10T19:59:56Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: letrec*: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2019-02-10T19:59:59Z Riastradh: rudybot: init r6rs
2019-02-10T19:59:59Z rudybot: Riastradh: error: r6rs: must contain a `library' form (for a library) or start with `import' (for a top-level program) <NEWLINE>   in: (#%module-begin)
2019-02-10T20:00:09Z Riastradh: I give up.
2019-02-10T20:00:41Z Riastradh: ecraven: Not the same, but without CWCC, LETREC* is a valid implementation strategy for LETREC.
2019-02-10T20:01:00Z Riastradh: Now which one does R7RS internal definitions use?
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2019-02-10T20:03:38Z kjak: Riastradh: letrec* for internal definitions
2019-02-10T20:03:57Z kjak: (page 26 of r7rs)
2019-02-10T20:04:45Z kjak: i was just looking at letrec vs letrec* a few weeks ago
2019-02-10T20:08:26Z Riastradh: OK, cool.
2019-02-10T20:10:56Z jcowan: same for R6RS
2019-02-10T20:11:26Z jcowan: the claims that the R7RS-small committee ignored R6RS are simply not true
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2019-02-10T22:08:03Z amz3: anyone know what it means in the context of chez scheme: Exception: missing import for expand-time-features (only (srfi private registry) expand-time-features) at line 10, char 10 of /home/amirouche/src/scheme/azul/src/.akku/lib/srfi/:0/cond-expand.sls
2019-02-10T22:08:31Z Riastradh: I dunno, what's on line 10, char 10 of /home/amirouche/src/scheme/azul/src/.akku/lib/srfi/:0/cond-expand.sls?
2019-02-10T22:09:46Z amz3: hmm, it's a filepath
2019-02-10T22:10:11Z amz3: it happens when I try to import (scheme mapping hash)
2019-02-10T22:11:36Z Riastradh: What else is in /home/amirouche/src/scheme/azul/src/.akku/lib/srfi/:0/cond-expand.sls?
2019-02-10T22:13:24Z amz3: the definition of 'cond-expand'
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2019-02-10T22:24:40Z amz3: I found something...
2019-02-10T22:26:50Z amz3: actually, akku indeed merge directories, it works as expected but in the case of srfi/private/registry.scm is not the same since it contains the available srfi for use in cond-expand
2019-02-10T22:27:53Z amz3: so chez-srfi and thunderchez can not provide that file in the same location, otherwise said, all package that use 'srfi' in their module might not work with cond-expand
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2019-02-10T22:34:28Z amz3: seems like I will need to cooperate this time
2019-02-10T22:34:36Z amz3: with chez-srfi author
2019-02-10T22:53:10Z rain1: racket is really awful for removing set-cdr!
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2019-02-11T00:01:51Z Riastradh: <racket> rain1 is really awful for using set-cdr!
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2019-02-11T00:10:00Z Riastradh: Does SRFI 1 require that, e.g., continuations inside filter or map must not modify the output list, or does it allow them to?
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2019-02-11T02:19:48Z jcowan: SRFI 1 is silent on the subject
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2019-02-11T02:57:11Z Riastradh: jcowan: Like subtle questions of constitutional law, though, the conclusion may be inferred from careful reading and synthesis of disparate parts of the whole document.
2019-02-11T02:57:44Z jcowan: Perhaps.  Have you drawn any conclusions from close reading of SRFI 1?
2019-02-11T02:59:25Z Riastradh: Nope!  That's why I was asking the channel of constitutional law schemers here so I could save myself the trouble.
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2019-02-11T08:20:28Z amz3: I have an error with srfi 116 at import time
2019-02-11T08:20:29Z amz3: https://paste.gnome.org/prph81n8e
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2019-02-11T08:21:39Z ecraven: amz3: check the context, that definition itself seems to work ok on chez
2019-02-11T08:21:46Z ecraven: what's *around* thet definition?
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2019-02-11T08:49:46Z amz3: ok, seems like cond-expand above that macro is failing https://paste.gnome.org/p6ohgrsid
2019-02-11T08:50:42Z ecraven: where do you get the error? on chicken or on another Scheme?
2019-02-11T08:50:59Z amz3: chez scheme
2019-02-11T08:51:09Z amz3: there is no chicken in the mix I don't understand that error
2019-02-11T08:51:25Z ecraven: you are not allowed to mix definitions and expressions, #t is not a definition
2019-02-11T08:51:29Z ecraven: so you cannot have definitions after that form
2019-02-11T08:51:43Z ecraven: (you can mix them at the repl, but not when running in batch)
2019-02-11T08:51:48Z ecraven: that's actually an R6RS thing, I think
2019-02-11T08:53:17Z amz3: TIL
2019-02-11T08:53:30Z ecraven: I've been bitten by that multiple times ;)
2019-02-11T08:53:47Z amz3: they are other issues with srfi 116 aka. ilist, like multiple definition of imap and imap-reverse, I will copy and fix
2019-02-11T08:54:00Z ecraven: for example, my (define-method ..) expands to (add-method! ..), so you can't mix define-generic and define-method the way I wrote it :-/
2019-02-11T08:54:13Z ecraven: well, you can fix this by reordering things
2019-02-11T09:04:04Z amz3: I replaced #t with (begin)
2019-02-11T09:05:08Z amz3: patches sent
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2019-02-11T10:11:41Z amz3: weinholt: hello, in akku, how is determined 'artifact-implementation'?
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2019-02-11T12:04:04Z jcowan: Some Schemes (Chicken in particular) don't enforce definitions-before-expressions, which is why some of my test suites barf on non-Chicken (not to be confused with Rubber Chicken)
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2019-02-11T14:41:03Z soegaard: @weinholt Thanks for chipping in. I am trying again: https://github.com/textmate/scheme.tmbundle/pull/9
2019-02-11T14:41:59Z soegaard: https://lists.macromates.com/textmate/2019-January/040894.html
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2019-02-11T14:49:11Z gwatt: soegaard: related: https://github.com/github/linguist/issues/3089
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2019-02-11T14:53:03Z soegaard: gwatt: thanks - maybe we should reopened that - based on scheme.tmbundle#9 not being being pulled?
2019-02-11T14:53:58Z gwatt: Maybe. it's been pretty quiet from the textmate crowd
2019-02-11T14:59:26Z soegaard: I sort of understand them.
2019-02-11T15:00:06Z soegaard: Github really should host their own syntax highlighter and handle the support.
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2019-02-11T15:04:56Z gwatt: Yeah, it seems weird to only rely on upstream
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2019-02-11T15:47:20Z rain1: does anyone have a simple lisp interpreter that supports writing out and reading in closures?
2019-02-11T15:47:37Z rain1: or documents that explain the technical details of how to do that
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2019-02-11T16:00:48Z friscosam: rain1: something like (%closure ((free-var . value)) (args ...) body ...)
2019-02-11T16:01:18Z friscosam: rather (%closure ((free-var . value) ...) (args ...) body ...)
2019-02-11T16:02:20Z rain1: friscosam: that sounds like it could wokr, did you come up with the idea or learn it somewhere?
2019-02-11T16:03:07Z friscosam: I probably remembered it, some is probably from Lisp in Small Pieces
2019-02-11T16:04:08Z friscosam: It's pretty much the form of a closure value in a few interpreters I've looked at
2019-02-11T16:04:24Z friscosam: actually that may be similar to the representation used in SICP
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2019-02-11T16:07:21Z friscosam: you could just stick the whole environment in the closure, but it's more efficient to just filter it down to the variables used in the body of the lambda
2019-02-11T16:08:01Z rain1: yeah i see
2019-02-11T16:08:03Z friscosam: oh and in this design all of the variables are going to have to be immutable
2019-02-11T16:09:28Z friscosam: unless translate the mutable ones to set-box! and unbox, but if you're reading and writing that probably won't work without **magic**
2019-02-11T16:10:35Z rain1: mutation seems to cause difficuties in this context
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2019-02-11T16:10:48Z rain1: like if l1 and l2 share a box, you write one out and read it back in
2019-02-11T16:10:52Z rain1: the sharing may have disappeared
2019-02-11T16:11:43Z ggole: You can allocate identities and reconstruct them with a table on the other end
2019-02-11T16:11:46Z ggole: But it's expensive
2019-02-11T16:12:01Z soegaard: If we can get Linguist to make a new repo for a Scheme grammar - what do you prefer - 1) that we fork the old Scheme grammar and fix the square brackets bug only    or   2) that we fork the Racket grammar and work from that?
2019-02-11T16:12:19Z ggole: Data is much nicer to transport than objects.
2019-02-11T16:12:35Z soegaard: Context: I am talking about the syntax colorer used on Github.
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2019-02-11T16:15:37Z soegaard: Discussion here: https://github.com/github/linguist/issues/3089
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2019-02-11T19:35:33Z amz3: rudybot: what about r7rs?
2019-02-11T19:35:34Z rudybot: amz3: What I have is about 1/3 to 1/2 of an r7rs scheme. I want to be able to run it in geiser (and then implement the rest of the Scheme by repeatedly testing it in geiser) because I want access to a SLIME-like REPL because it's so much more convenient to work with than my current methods of testing.
2019-02-11T19:35:58Z amz3: rudybot: what is SLIME?
2019-02-11T19:36:02Z rudybot: amz3: what does this error mean: Symbol's function definition is void: slime-setup-contribs
2019-02-11T19:38:45Z aeth: I wonder if that first line is mine
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2019-02-11T23:23:25Z jcowan: aeth: Are the fractions roughly correct?
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2019-02-12T00:02:01Z aeth: jcowan: I probably have at least 80% of the procedures implemented.
2019-02-12T00:06:13Z jcowan: Excellent!  How about the front end (macros and libraries)?  Are you going to use pre-existing code for that?
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2019-02-12T00:44:02Z aeth: jcowan: For the rest I need an internal format instead of just wrapping everything in a high level macro and leaving the internal details for later.
2019-02-12T00:45:06Z aeth: jcowan: I think I told you I was going to do it in a weekend in January, but my cat died unexpectedly, so I couldn't.
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2019-02-12T00:48:17Z jcowan: Aw man, bummer.  I sympathize.
2019-02-12T00:53:10Z aeth: There are essentially two main components that are missing, before the macros and libraries, and that is the reader and the complete internal representation (in particular, the current internal representation hurts performance and breaks multiple return values).
2019-02-12T00:53:20Z aeth: It might seem strange to procrastinate something as essential as the reader, but syntactic similarity gives a kind of Schemish result without a complete reader, just not a compliant one.
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2019-02-12T09:49:56Z ManDay: Isn't scheme (practically) lacking a way to assign multiple variables conditionally? As in:  (let ((x (if b u v)) (y (if b w z))) ...) ?
2019-02-12T09:50:25Z soegaard: ManDay: You can use let-values
2019-02-12T09:51:02Z ManDay: soegaard: ah cool, didn't know about that! thanks :)
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2019-02-12T10:26:30Z ManDay: Huh, so guile doesn't know let-values from (rnrs base (6)) ?!
2019-02-12T10:26:53Z ManDay: ah my bad
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2019-02-12T11:03:08Z amz3: what is a datum?
2019-02-12T11:05:28Z ManDay: amz3: is that some sort of thought-provoking question or is there actually some context to that?
2019-02-12T11:06:48Z amz3: yes I am reading nanopass example scheme->c compiler https://github.com/akeep/scheme-to-c/blob/master/c.ss#L445
2019-02-12T11:07:27Z ManDay: it gives the (recursive) def right there
2019-02-12T11:07:39Z ManDay: a datum is a pair or a vector of that or a constant
2019-02-12T11:07:44Z amz3: I already read that term somewhere, seems like datum means something that doesn't have a call in it
2019-02-12T11:07:44Z ManDay: i.e. effectively a constant
2019-02-12T11:07:56Z amz3: yes indeed
2019-02-12T11:08:43Z amz3: ManDay: I did not mean to be rude about your questions
2019-02-12T11:09:14Z amz3: ManDay: fwiw, I don't use 'let-values' or 'receive', I prefer 'call-with-values' but this might be only taste
2019-02-12T11:10:01Z ManDay: amz3: with the best effort i can't possibly see where you had been rude
2019-02-12T11:10:27Z amz3: you said "thought-provoking question" in the sens philosophical question?
2019-02-12T11:10:30Z ManDay: i have mixed feelings about call-with-values, for it requires me to pass a lambda as a generator
2019-02-12T11:10:45Z ManDay: amz3: yes, like... "What does it mean... to 'be'?"
2019-02-12T11:10:50Z amz3: ok
2019-02-12T11:10:52Z ManDay: It was kind of a joke ;)
2019-02-12T11:11:22Z amz3: ManDay: yes that's the "problem" with call-with-values it takes a thunk as first argument, and I forget about it sometime.
2019-02-12T11:11:45Z amz3: I find that the code look nicer than receive, also, there is less magic..
2019-02-12T11:12:02Z ManDay: someone once tried to convince me that that makes sense because of polymorphy and whatnot, but that didn't get through to me, i'm afraid
2019-02-12T11:12:19Z amz3: what makes sense?
2019-02-12T11:12:25Z ManDay tries to figure out what "receive" is...
2019-02-12T11:12:28Z amz3: receive?
2019-02-12T11:12:48Z ManDay: <amz3> what makes sense?   <- is that another of these questions? :-D
2019-02-12T11:12:53Z amz3: 'receive' is a macro that binds multiple 'values'
2019-02-12T11:13:03Z ManDay: oh,
2019-02-12T11:13:18Z amz3: it's like call-with-values but doesn't require all around 'lambda'
2019-02-12T11:13:24Z ManDay: requiring a lambda as a generator making sense. instead of just taking the values as a ... value
2019-02-12T11:13:58Z amz3: (receive (a b) (values 'a 'b) body ...)
2019-02-12T11:14:06Z ManDay: yeah, i like that
2019-02-12T11:14:17Z amz3: rudybot: what is receive?
2019-02-12T11:14:23Z rudybot: amz3: once all the forks of nethack become significantly more popular than nethack, and then combine to form one great, everybody agrees that this is what nethack really should have been.  only then will nethack receive an update.  (i learned this whilst scrying into a crystal sphere)
2019-02-12T11:14:28Z amz3: sorry
2019-02-12T11:14:42Z ManDay: he's going places...
2019-02-12T11:14:53Z ManDay: anyway, where does that infamous "receive" reside, exactly?
2019-02-12T11:14:58Z ManDay: not in r6rs it seems?
2019-02-12T11:15:08Z amz3: I was under the impression that it would explain what receive is
2019-02-12T11:15:14Z amz3: ManDay: in ice-9 receive
2019-02-12T11:15:20Z ManDay: ah ok
2019-02-12T11:15:35Z amz3: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Multiple-Values.html#index-receive-1
2019-02-12T11:15:44Z rain1: maybe we could make a better let-values using [] notation
2019-02-12T11:16:02Z rain1: (let ((x 3) ([y z] (values 'a 'b))) ...)
2019-02-12T11:16:09Z ManDay: well, it's kind of a very specific hack (assigning multiple values at once) - i don't think it can be made more elegant/improved
2019-02-12T11:16:15Z ManDay: <- off to lunch
2019-02-12T11:17:04Z amz3: rain1: nanopass use [ ] to do something in the compiler also it overides `
2019-02-12T11:17:32Z amz3: I don't like it tho, that's how it.
2019-02-12T11:18:07Z amz3: rain1: here is an example https://github.com/akeep/scheme-to-c/blob/master/c.ss#L2585
2019-02-12T11:18:13Z amz3: I think
2019-02-12T11:18:29Z rain1: in that context isn't () and [] exactly the same?
2019-02-12T11:18:35Z rain1: in mine i was meaning [] should be vector notation
2019-02-12T11:19:27Z amz3: imo, that goes against no-syntax philosophy of sexp
2019-02-12T11:19:37Z amz3: same goes for quote unquote etc..
2019-02-12T11:19:51Z ecraven: you really prefer (quote foo) to 'foo?
2019-02-12T11:20:20Z amz3: I got used to 'foo but it complicates the learning experience, I think
2019-02-12T11:20:37Z ecraven: well, if *that* complicates it, then a lot of other things are a major problem
2019-02-12T11:21:18Z amz3: 'foo requires to introduce the reader into the learning curve where regular imperative people could just understand 'quote' as a keyword
2019-02-12T11:21:23Z ecraven: just saying, if you stay with strict list notation only, you have to drop quasiquote, everything #.., lots of things
2019-02-12T11:21:53Z amz3: strict list notation that is what I had in mind
2019-02-12T11:22:10Z ecraven: I don't think anyone would want to use that language, unfortunately
2019-02-12T11:22:16Z amz3: :)
2019-02-12T11:22:28Z rain1: amz3: that's true  im adding new special syntax to lisp,  but the thing is.. we still have homoiconicity
2019-02-12T11:22:31Z ecraven: also, if you go that way, (if a b c) is evaluated differently than (foo a b c)... so special forms are a problem too?
2019-02-12T11:22:45Z rain1: that's why I think [] and {} can be ok
2019-02-12T11:22:55Z rain1: but i want to hear more arguments against it incase i missed something
2019-02-12T11:23:02Z amz3: special forms are ok
2019-02-12T11:23:14Z ecraven: well, it's a narrow ledge, you need just the right amount of syntax, not too much, not too little
2019-02-12T11:24:11Z ecraven: rain1: [1 2 3] is (vector 1 2 3)?
2019-02-12T11:24:17Z ecraven: how would {} work?
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2019-02-12T11:30:58Z rain1: {key1 val2 key2 val2} for hashtable
2019-02-12T11:31:19Z rain1: the problem with (vector 1 2 3) is that '(vector 1 2 3) evaluates to a list
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2019-02-12T11:35:51Z ecraven: my personal problem with { key value key value } is that there is no way to see what is a key and what is a value in a long list :-/
2019-02-12T11:36:07Z rain1: that's true, i think clojure puts a comma after each value
2019-02-12T11:36:12Z ecraven: { key => value; key => value} is visually much clearer to me (not that I'm proposing that in Scheme!)
2019-02-12T11:36:12Z rain1: but i don't really like that
2019-02-12T11:36:28Z rain1: one thing that kind of helps is if the keys are :foo instead of foo
2019-02-12T11:36:32Z ecraven: just saying, imho that's a reason *against* that syntax.. {(key value) (key value)} for example would group things
2019-02-12T11:36:37Z ggole: {(k . v) (k . v)}?
2019-02-12T11:36:40Z ggole: Right
2019-02-12T11:36:41Z ecraven: rain1: ah, but they certainly are not always
2019-02-12T11:36:49Z ecraven: ggole: exactly, something like that
2019-02-12T11:36:57Z rain1: but i don't think we should bring perl style sigils into scheme
2019-02-12T11:39:46Z ecraven: rain1: well, {(k . v) (k . v)} for example would be exactly the same as an alist
2019-02-12T11:40:03Z ecraven: so for me, that's just about the only thing that even remotely seems "Schemely" (very subjective of course)
2019-02-12T11:40:19Z ecraven: {key value key value} is very much common lisp for me, like plists
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2019-02-12T11:43:40Z ecraven: #{(k . v) (k . v)} maybe?
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2019-02-12T11:54:12Z amz3: nanopass is addictive :)
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2019-02-12T16:43:44Z rain1: I wonder why we didn't just extend let to support multiple values like this (let ((x y (values a b))) ..)
2019-02-12T16:44:39Z rain1: {(k . v) (k . v)} is better in terms of connecting the key value pairs, but it implies that there is a literal pair where there isn't actually one
2019-02-12T16:46:42Z gwatt: I think that's a nice let extension
2019-02-12T16:47:17Z soegaard: See also: https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-11/srfi-11.html
2019-02-12T16:47:28Z soegaard: (let-values (((a b . c) (values 1 2 3 4))) ...)
2019-02-12T16:47:36Z soegaard: and  https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-71/srfi-71.html
2019-02-12T16:49:03Z gwatt: I think what I really want is letrec*-values, but spelled let.
2019-02-12T16:50:19Z gwatt: and I like rain1's syntax for multiple values: just put as many identifiers as you want in the binding for multiple values
2019-02-12T16:50:45Z rain1: https://bpaste.net/show/6afd6c5f28a8
2019-02-12T16:51:00Z rain1: like this gwatt? I tested and racket #() is supported in macros
2019-02-12T16:51:06Z rain1: but [] looks nicer imo
2019-02-12T16:51:36Z gwatt: Does this syntax require the implementation distinguish [ from ( ?
2019-02-12T16:51:40Z Riastradh: gwatt: internal define-values?
2019-02-12T16:52:14Z gwatt: Riastradh: Yes, that's a way to do it.
2019-02-12T16:52:46Z rain1: yeah gwatt I use [] but in racket you could use #()
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2019-02-12T16:52:56Z rain1: i don't know if other schemes let you use vector notation in macros
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2019-02-12T16:53:35Z rain1: and this 'let' thing could be the implicit begin
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2019-02-12T17:18:06Z drewc: in gerbil-scheme we have > (let ((values a b) (values 1 2)) (+ a b)) => 3. I use it all the time.
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2019-02-12T17:19:49Z rain1: i like that!
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2019-02-12T17:32:52Z drewc: We don't (yet) support (let ((values a b . c) ...) ...) (yet), and I would likely use match to do so. ie:
2019-02-12T17:33:15Z drewc: (match (call-with-values (cut values 1 2 3 4) (lambda x x)) ([a b . c] c)) => (3 4)
2019-02-12T17:34:28Z drewc: But, if I ever am inside our let syntax, well, that def will likely be there to combine them :)
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2019-02-12T17:45:45Z soegaard: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/soegaard/bind/blob/master/scribblings/bind.html
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2019-02-12T18:27:20Z Zipheir: It seems like a fairly knotty extension to let--how do you handle something like (let ((foo e1) (bar baz e2) (quux e3)) ...)?
2019-02-12T18:28:02Z Zipheir: Some unholy clump of call-with-values and lambda, I suppose.
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2019-02-12T18:37:12Z gwatt: https://gist.github.com/gwatt/fbe2ace7c5d9411e7d5021c6d9903a26
2019-02-12T18:37:18Z gwatt: that's mostly what I want
2019-02-12T18:38:24Z Zipheir: Somewhat complicated.
2019-02-12T18:41:11Z Zipheir: let-values allows single-valued and multiple-valued bindings to be interspersed--when that's actually necessary--without gumming up let.
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2019-02-12T18:43:10Z gwatt: The cost of that is having 6 different binding forms
2019-02-12T18:44:09Z rain1: I like that term, gumming up :D
2019-02-12T18:44:50Z rain1: I like that LET+
2019-02-12T18:45:04Z rain1: and it's funny to think about all this fuss whereas languages like lua you just write a,b = f()
2019-02-12T18:45:16Z gwatt: right
2019-02-12T18:45:30Z rain1: I love scheme but we do have to address these things
2019-02-12T18:45:46Z gwatt: That's homoiconicity for you
2019-02-12T18:45:50Z Zipheir: Just get rid of multiple values.
2019-02-12T18:46:44Z gwatt: I'm not sure that saves anything.
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2019-02-12T18:48:19Z Zipheir: (match expr ((a b) (do-things-with-these-values a b)) ...)
2019-02-12T18:48:32Z Zipheir: We have pairs, pairs are nice.
2019-02-12T18:49:06Z rain1: yeah i admit im not much of a fan of multiple values
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2019-02-12T18:49:19Z rain1: it seems kind of like a efficiency hack
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2019-02-12T18:49:48Z gwatt: You've just shifted the problem. Whether it's real(*) multiple values or destructuring pairs, I still want a binding form that handles them
2019-02-12T18:50:07Z gwatt: (*) There's no specification on how multiple values are implemented, and they can be just pairs
2019-02-12T18:50:09Z Zipheir: Fair point.
2019-02-12T18:50:12Z rain1: maybe let could also match, so (let [(a . b) (foo)] ..)
2019-02-12T18:50:42Z gwatt: also, I realize my let+ allows this: (let+ ([a b] [b a]) (list a b)) => (#f #f)
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2019-02-12T20:19:38Z foof: (chibi show) and (chibi monad) should be fully portably and mostly in line with the final SRFI 159, I'll double check
2019-02-12T20:19:51Z foof: they're both in snow-fort already
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2019-02-12T22:15:23Z Zipheir: rudybot: w00t, SRFI-116 is really cool.
2019-02-12T22:15:25Z rudybot: Zipheir:   scan-sexps(116 -1)
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2019-02-12T22:47:34Z jcowan: Zipheir: Thanks!
2019-02-12T22:48:22Z Zipheir: jcowan: No, thank you, as usual.
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2019-02-13T11:38:12Z ecraven: are there languages other that Forth and Scheme that owe their name to limitations in length?
2019-02-13T11:40:07Z soegaard: Let's see - how old do we need the system to be to set a limitation on the file names?
2019-02-13T11:40:57Z rain1: maybe lua
2019-02-13T11:41:17Z rain1: there are some esoteric ones but I think scheme and forth are the only ones that are useful
2019-02-13T11:41:34Z rain1: tcl as well maybe
2019-02-13T11:42:22Z soegaard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_programming_languages
2019-02-13T11:44:38Z rain1: oh i misunderstood your question
2019-02-13T11:44:43Z rain1: you literally meant the name of the language
2019-02-13T11:44:58Z soegaard: Can't find any obvious candidates.
2019-02-13T11:45:01Z ecraven: yes. and I wouldn't count acronyms, just names where letters were dropped ;)
2019-02-13T11:45:13Z soegaard: Acronyms were popular - perhaps because they are short?
2019-02-13T11:45:27Z ecraven: probably ;)
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2019-02-13T11:57:36Z fizzie: I have a feeling (but no evidence) that Prolog's 6-character shortening of "programmation en logique" may have been motivated by length limitations.
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2019-02-13T12:17:28Z amz3: go?
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2019-02-13T15:29:57Z amz3: is it possible in syntax-case to loop over a syntax object
2019-02-13T15:29:59Z amz3: ?
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2019-02-13T15:30:46Z soegaard: example?
2019-02-13T15:32:17Z amz3: I would like to avoid the syntax->datum at https://paste.gnome.org/pxdcftqry#line-5
2019-02-13T15:32:54Z soegaard: use  syntax->list
2019-02-13T15:33:07Z amz3: tx
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2019-02-13T15:37:58Z jcowan: fizzie: Since the first Prolog interpreter was written in Fortran, which historically had a 6-character identifier limit, I would certainly think so.  (The analogous situation gave us Scheme instead of Schemer, of course.)
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2019-02-13T15:57:29Z fizzie: Yes, it would make sense, there's just no recorded story (that I know of) of a more preferred too-long name ("PROGLOG"?) the way there is for Forth/Scheme.
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2019-02-13T16:33:28Z amz3: is it ok if the 7.1.7 Libraries section is missing <includer> -> production rule
2019-02-13T16:33:37Z amz3: it appears somewhere else in r7rs
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2019-02-13T16:45:55Z jcowan: yeah, it should be
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2019-02-13T17:11:09Z pjb: jcowan: You could still limit identifiers to 5 or 10 letters+digits, which would allow you to store them on 32-bit or 64-bit words, and therefore compare then quickly in the compiler…
2019-02-13T17:11:24Z pjb: jcowan: of course, this matters less in languages with local scopes…
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2019-02-13T17:41:16Z gwatt: amz3: you can also deep unwrap syntax objects: https://github.com/gwatt/macros/blob/master/syntax-utils.scm#L5
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2019-02-13T17:56:38Z amz3: any feedback regarding wasm vs. vanilla javascript as target for scheme compiler?
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2019-02-13T18:34:16Z soegaard: amz3: fwiw maybe you can get inspiration from   https://github.com/nanopass/nanopass-framework-racket/blob/master/tests/coresheme-to-javascript-compiler.rkt   or    https://github.com/soegaard/urlang/blob/master/urlang/main.rkt
2019-02-13T18:34:24Z soegaard: wrt to emitting JavaScript.
2019-02-13T18:38:42Z soegaard: Also: https://github.com/vishesh/racketscript
2019-02-13T18:38:56Z soegaard: And http://www-sop.inria.fr/indes/scheme2js/
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2019-02-14T01:11:55Z duncanm: Riastradh: what was the reason why you changed multi-LETREC to internal definitions in your recent MIT Scheme commits?
2019-02-14T01:12:35Z duncanm: oh, i see this commit to mit-macros.scm
2019-02-14T01:13:43Z duncanm: but i don't quite understand it
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2019-02-14T01:34:10Z Riastradh: duncanm: The compiler handles LETREC*, by way of internal definitions, better than LETREC / LET and SET!.
2019-02-14T01:36:02Z Riastradh: (That is, itself, a bug, but it takes more work to fix than just using internal definitions where we don't care about the difference in semantics.)
2019-02-14T01:36:14Z Riastradh: (Also internal definitions are generally easier to read.)
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2019-02-14T01:48:05Z duncanm: I see
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2019-02-14T01:56:27Z codebam: hey, trying to create a list of random numbers between 1 and 6 of a certain size? I'm really new to scheme and having trouble doing some of these simple tasks and wrapping my head around all the recursion. this is what I have so far, but I was thinking I should probably do it all in the makelist function? (which I took from stackoverflow). https://ptpb.pw/HQz9/scheme
2019-02-14T01:56:49Z codebam: the certain size is 1000
2019-02-14T02:00:21Z aeth: First, a minor point of style, it should be make-list. Always hyphenate.
2019-02-14T02:00:39Z codebam: right but should I even be doing that if I don't care about the values of the list?
2019-02-14T02:00:47Z aeth: Since they're random numbers, you don't need to reverse at the end because the order doesn't matter, so you can just build a list up from the start with a cons, which normally builds things backwards. i.e. you start from the tail and keep adding to the front.
2019-02-14T02:01:19Z aeth: Think about what you're trying to do. makelist almost gets there.
2019-02-14T02:01:55Z codebam: that's what I'm thinking, should I pass two arguments into makelist for my counter as well as my random list?
2019-02-14T02:02:00Z aeth: You're trying to do this: () -> (3) -> (2 3) -> (4 2 3) etc. where those numbers are just some random number. Each iteration you're adding to the front (it's to the front because that's just how cons works)
2019-02-14T02:02:29Z codebam: oh, okay so instead of creating the list using n, I should create it using random?
2019-02-14T02:02:59Z aeth: pass in (lambda () (+ 1 (random 6))) as a higher order function, and call that function in make-list
2019-02-14T02:03:49Z aeth: You'll actually want a third argument, though, so you are properly tail recursive. make-list needs to be the tail call, but right now cons is the tail call, so the stack will grow. So you have to have the list you are growing also passed in as an argument, and n is strictly the counter
2019-02-14T02:04:41Z codebam: you've lost me sorry. what's a higher order function?
2019-02-14T02:04:57Z aeth: The tail call should look something like this: (make-list (- n 1) f (cons (f) l)
2019-02-14T02:05:01Z aeth: )
2019-02-14T02:05:16Z aeth: It needs to call itself, not cons, in the tail position.
2019-02-14T02:06:00Z aeth: You need a higher order function because you can't just pass in one random number because if you do it will all be 4, or all be 1, etc. So you need to pass in the random generator and call that each time.
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2019-02-14T02:06:29Z codebam: oh I see, so I pass the random number generator instead of calling it on each iteration
2019-02-14T02:06:33Z aeth: That's very similar to what your current lambda is, except you'll want to return y at the end. (just have a line of y)
2019-02-14T02:06:40Z codebam: or well, by passing it it gets called?
2019-02-14T02:07:13Z aeth: You would (cons (f) l) where f is the variable representing the passed-in function and l is the list.
2019-02-14T02:07:37Z aeth: Feel free to use other variable names.
2019-02-14T02:08:15Z aeth: If you're not familiar with s-expression syntax, (f) is essentially identical to f() in this case
2019-02-14T02:09:32Z codebam: oh, okay I think I get that. I'm going to read over what you said a few times and work with this but I'll probably ask more questions when I get stuck. thanks for the help aeth!
2019-02-14T02:09:34Z codebam: :)
2019-02-14T02:09:47Z aeth: you're welcome
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2019-02-14T02:11:34Z aeth: I might have made some subtle error since I'm doing this from memory
2019-02-14T02:11:46Z aeth: (more subtle than dropping a ")")
2019-02-14T02:12:54Z codebam: oh, okay. sorry for this simple question. but how would I define the lambda for rolling that I need to pass? I was trying to do `(define roll-dice (lambda () (+ 1(random 6)))`
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2019-02-14T02:13:26Z codebam: oh I missed a )
2019-02-14T02:14:40Z aeth: codebam: (define foo (lambda (x) x)) and (define (foo x) x) are equivalent, so you only need to use the longer (explicitly mentioning lambda) syntax if it's anonymous
2019-02-14T02:15:03Z codebam: oh, okay
2019-02-14T02:15:05Z Zipheir: (Or if you're a Dybvig disciple.)
2019-02-14T02:16:51Z codebam: aeth: sorry, but so how would I convert that lambda?
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2019-02-14T02:17:26Z codebam: should it not be `(define (roll-dice (+ 1(random 6))))` ?
2019-02-14T02:17:32Z Zipheir: (define (roll-dice) ...)
2019-02-14T02:17:37Z aeth: codebam: (foo 10 (lambda () (+ 1 (random 6))) '()) and (foo 10 roll-dice '()) should be equivalent because the latter is just using the named version of the former.
2019-02-14T02:17:49Z codebam: oh I see
2019-02-14T02:18:01Z aeth: Oops, I think you mean the definition not the makelist call
2019-02-14T02:18:04Z codebam: thank you
2019-02-14T02:18:20Z aeth: Zipheir has it right, it's (define (roll-dice) ...)
2019-02-14T02:18:24Z codebam: yeah I figured it out I think. what Zipheir was correct
2019-02-14T02:18:29Z codebam: *what Zipheir said
2019-02-14T02:18:31Z aeth: You're just consing the name onto the lambda's list.
2019-02-14T02:18:50Z aeth: (cons 'foo '()) => '(foo)
2019-02-14T02:19:06Z aeth: It definitely is an edge case, though.
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2019-02-14T02:27:02Z codebam: yay I figured it out!
2019-02-14T02:27:13Z codebam: thank you aeth and Zipheir :)
2019-02-14T02:27:26Z codebam: now if I wanted to count them, how would I do that?
2019-02-14T02:27:32Z codebam: is there a function that can just do that for me?
2019-02-14T02:27:43Z aeth: Do you mean sum it?
2019-02-14T02:27:56Z aeth: Once you have the list of random numbers it's pretty easy to do whatever with them
2019-02-14T02:28:00Z codebam: no I mean like count how many 4's I got (for example)
2019-02-14T02:28:11Z aeth: yeah that's very doable
2019-02-14T02:28:23Z Zipheir: (length (filter (lambda (n) (= n 4)) my-awesome-list))
2019-02-14T02:28:31Z codebam: oh wow, cool!
2019-02-14T02:29:12Z Zipheir: You might need SRFI-1 for filter.
2019-02-14T02:29:46Z codebam: I'm not sure what that means? I'm using guile on fedora to compile
2019-02-14T02:30:40Z Zipheir: SRFIs are sort of the Scheme 'standard library' https://srfi.schemers.org
2019-02-14T02:30:46Z aeth: codebam: Scheme is a common core. It's more of a language family than a language because it's too small for useful programs. It doesn't even have hash tables. Each Scheme implementation extends Scheme to make it useful in its own non-portable ways. There are also portable extensions, called SRFIs.
2019-02-14T02:30:57Z Zipheir: SRFI-1 is very broadly implemented and contains a lot of useful list operations.
2019-02-14T02:31:15Z aeth: SRFI-1 is one of the most commonly implemented SRFIs. How you load it,  if you need it, is implementation-specific.
2019-02-14T02:32:07Z Zipheir: Yay, lots of explanations.
2019-02-14T02:32:19Z Zipheir twiddles #scheme's duplex switch
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2019-02-14T02:51:33Z Zipheir: You can write plenty useful programs in standard Scheme, provided you don't need system calls and are willing to implement anything non-RnRS that you need.
2019-02-14T02:52:37Z Zipheir: (And that really need not be a massive task for sane definitions of 'useful program'.)
2019-02-14T02:59:23Z Zipheir: "With this handful of building blocks, it's possible to write useful programs of considerable size." --Kernighan & Ritchie, after introducing basic control structures and char-at-a-time I/O.
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2019-02-14T03:00:44Z codebam: aeth: oh wow, that's cool. so what would guile be?
2019-02-14T03:00:49Z aeth: Zipheir: I disagree... If you exclude some of the common SRFIs like SRFI-1 the first step of any project is... implementing those SRFIs.
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2019-02-14T03:01:15Z codebam: :( missed the conversation. had to leave work
2019-02-14T03:01:24Z Zipheir: Maybe a few functions from them.
2019-02-14T03:01:37Z aeth: Zipheir: yeah, some subset, yes.
2019-02-14T03:01:53Z aeth: But the smart thing to do would be to implement them as specified in the SRFI so at least people could read/write your code
2019-02-14T03:01:55Z Zipheir: codebam: (use-modules (srfi srfi-1)) maybe
2019-02-14T03:02:04Z Zipheir: codebam: Not a Guile user, sorry. :(
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2019-02-14T03:02:40Z codebam: that's okay, was just wondering. what implementation of scheme do you use?
2019-02-14T03:02:45Z Zipheir: aeth: Of course. You should certainly use them if their available, as they're often highly tuned.
2019-02-14T03:03:01Z Zipheir: codebam: CHICKEN, mainly these day.s
2019-02-14T03:03:10Z Zipheir: s/day.s/days./
2019-02-14T03:03:13Z codebam: oh, cool I'll have to look that up
2019-02-14T03:03:38Z aeth: The three most popular are Racket, Guile, and Chicken, probably in that order.
2019-02-14T03:04:48Z Zipheir: Someone on #scheme once said "Sadly, you'll go mad trying to find the perfect implementation.". Which was a very good point. :)
2019-02-14T03:04:57Z aeth: As for me, I don't write in Scheme, I write Scheme. As in one of my side projects is a half-complete Scheme implementation that I need to make the time to clean up and finish. I mostly use chibi-scheme (the first r7rs) and Racket (the most popular) for testing portable Scheme code, though.
2019-02-14T03:05:59Z aeth: geiser (the Emacs Scheme REPL) doesn't seem to like the old version of Guile that comes with the current Fedora, so I can't test in Guile in Emacs at the moment.
2019-02-14T03:07:19Z codebam: aeth: oh wow cool
2019-02-14T03:07:32Z aeth: Fedora comes with Racket (finally... there were packaging issues for years), Guile, Chicken, and Kawa (a JVM Scheme). I used to have chibi-scheme and MIT/GNU Scheme compiled and installed, but that was several distro upgrades ago so I would have to do that again.
2019-02-14T03:08:19Z Zipheir: Yeah, I'd like Racket more if it weren't such a monster.
2019-02-14T03:08:21Z codebam: I've just been writing this scheme (guile I guess?) in Vim and compiling using Guile directly
2019-02-14T03:08:49Z Zipheir: codebam: Sounds good.
2019-02-14T03:08:53Z aeth: Zipheir: Well, now that Fedora has it packaged the monster part is someone else's problem, at least in my case...
2019-02-14T03:11:00Z aeth: codebam: I'm not trying to start an editor war (if anything, what I'm about to say is a *bad* thing), but the vast majority of Lisp/Scheme programming seems to be done in GNU Emacs, so you might have an easier time with tools using one of the three vim bindings modes in Emacs.
2019-02-14T03:11:27Z Zipheir: aeth: Bad! Let people use the editors they like.
2019-02-14T03:11:30Z aeth: Just about every Freenode channel is majority vim except for the Lisp/Scheme ones.
2019-02-14T03:12:18Z codebam: I mean I'm used to not using any sort of linter or the like for other programming languages in Vim. I should be alright. I find I make less mistakes if I don't have to rely on the editor (this is after years of using vim, not overnight).
2019-02-14T03:12:39Z aeth: Zipheir: The alternative might be *writing* the $not_emacs tool, though, unfortunately, so it's worth mentioning that it's harder.
2019-02-14T03:12:43Z Zipheir: codebam: Very wise.
2019-02-14T03:13:27Z aeth: Racket also has its own editor, DrRacket, but it's afaik mostly aimed at education (i.e. teaching programming via Racket)
2019-02-14T03:14:44Z aeth: codebam: As long as your expectations aren't high, you can use any editor. You probably do want a parentheses matcher at a minimum, though. It used to annoy me in other languages, but it's very useful in an s-expression language to use the editor to keep the parentheses balanced. I'm sure vim has several.
2019-02-14T03:15:01Z codebam: yeah I had used DrRacket for a while, at one point I was reading htdp. It's nice as a Racket IDE
2019-02-14T03:15:24Z codebam: aeth: yeah Vim/Vi matches parentheses by default and jumps between them with %
2019-02-14T03:16:07Z Zipheir: Wasn't there talk of a DrGuile on here recently?
2019-02-14T03:16:31Z Zipheir: I heard something about a change in the Guile language that "might imply a DrGuile", but missed the rest of that convo.
2019-02-14T03:25:26Z codebam: was trying to write this function here for what you told me earlier on how to get the number of rolls of a certain value. I don't see my error though? `(define (get-number-of-rolls x roll-list) (length (filter (lambda (n) (= n x)) roll-list))`
2019-02-14T03:26:39Z Zipheir: It looks like you dropped a close paren?
2019-02-14T03:26:48Z Zipheir: Two close parens.
2019-02-14T03:27:23Z Zipheir: Nope, just one, sorry. (define (get-number-of-rolls x roll-list) (length (filter (lambda (n) (= n x)) roll-list)))
2019-02-14T03:28:21Z codebam: I mean it runs? I don't think I missed a parentheses?
2019-02-14T03:28:37Z codebam: it just returns x for some reason
2019-02-14T03:29:25Z codebam: oh you were right I had to drop one, I had it running before though like this
2019-02-14T03:29:28Z codebam: it's still returning x
2019-02-14T03:29:54Z codebam: oh, I wasn't supposed to put x at the end
2019-02-14T03:30:02Z codebam: works now, thanks!
2019-02-14T03:30:33Z Zipheir: I guess the error was caused by something you didn't paste, so I didn't really help :)
2019-02-14T03:32:20Z codebam: yeah haha I'm not actually sure where that came from. I must have pasted it by accident or something haha
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2019-02-14T04:39:40Z codebam: how do I divide 2 integers to get a floating point result?
2019-02-14T04:39:57Z codebam: because it's showing me the result as a rational
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2019-02-14T04:42:35Z dieggsy: codebam: e.g. (exact->inexact (/ 9 2))
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2019-02-14T04:43:38Z Zipheir: That's non-standard, IIRC.
2019-02-14T04:44:11Z codebam: what would be the standard way of doing it. let me see if that works in guile though
2019-02-14T04:44:24Z codebam: s/\./\?/g
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2019-02-14T04:44:59Z codebam: oh, yeah seems to work I guess
2019-02-14T04:45:44Z dieggsy: Zipheir: woah, is it?
2019-02-14T04:47:00Z Zipheir: It's not in R7RS small, I just checked.
2019-02-14T04:47:57Z Zipheir: codebam: It's implementation-dependent. CHICKEN displays (/ 9 2) as '4.5'
2019-02-14T04:48:22Z Zipheir: codebam: The way numbers are printed, I mean.
2019-02-14T04:48:40Z dieggsy: Zipheir: ?? (/ 9 2) prints 9/2 in chicken
2019-02-14T04:49:07Z dieggsy: oh, i misunderstood what you were saying was nonstandard as well
2019-02-14T04:50:07Z Zipheir: dieggsy: CHICKEN 5?
2019-02-14T04:50:40Z codebam: Zipheir: oh, okay
2019-02-14T04:50:59Z codebam: how would I round that to 2 decimal places?
2019-02-14T04:51:31Z Zipheir: (inexact (/ 9 2)) would do it in R7RS, I guess.
2019-02-14T04:51:35Z dieggsy: Zipheir: yeah. chicken 4 did for me too, though, IIRC ?
2019-02-14T04:51:39Z Zipheir: Guile doesn't have it though.
2019-02-14T04:52:10Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Weird. csi 4.13 here, I get 4.5.
2019-02-14T04:52:25Z Zipheir: There's also (+ (/ 9 2) 0.0) for a quick output hack :)
2019-02-14T04:52:42Z codebam: oh, cool :)
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2019-02-14T04:52:50Z dieggsy: Zipheir: it's definitely possible i'm misremembering, but i just remember fractions being displayed as fractions as one of the biggest draws of scheme for me, and i was mostly using chicken when i started  with it
2019-02-14T04:52:58Z dieggsy: i'll have to check that out now, i'm curious
2019-02-14T04:54:31Z Zipheir: codebam: The right way to do it with Guile would probably be (format #t "~f" (/ 9 2)) in your output code.
2019-02-14T04:54:48Z codebam: oh, okay. right because you would never want to round
2019-02-14T04:54:55Z codebam: or like never want to lose precision
2019-02-14T04:55:52Z dieggsy: Zipheir: OOOOOhhh i forgot about numbers!!!!
2019-02-14T04:56:08Z Zipheir: It's purely an output problem, and (format ...) is the purely output solution.
2019-02-14T04:56:26Z dieggsy: unless it's not an output problem and the question was phrased weirdly
2019-02-14T04:56:44Z Zipheir: dieggsy: True :)
2019-02-14T04:57:05Z Zipheir: codebam: c.f. https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Formatted-Output.html
2019-02-14T04:57:05Z dieggsy: Zipheir: er, i forgot about the numbers egg that is. forgot chicken didn't support the full numeric tower by default
2019-02-14T04:57:26Z Zipheir: dieggsy: So I thought, it's a little hard to forget about numbers.
2019-02-14T04:57:36Z dieggsy: i think i just imported numbers by default so much i forgot this fact
2019-02-14T05:00:11Z Zipheir: I was curious to see if Chicken 5 would have the full tower. No, it seems.
2019-02-14T05:00:17Z dieggsy: Zipheir: how so?
2019-02-14T05:01:01Z dieggsy: that was one of the explicit objectives of C5 IIRC
2019-02-14T05:01:10Z dieggsy: no longer needing an egg for full tower support
2019-02-14T05:01:49Z Zipheir: Oh, cool. I guess I missed that.
2019-02-14T05:05:38Z dieggsy: Zipheir: C5 is also the scheme i use the most these days i think
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2019-02-14T05:06:53Z Zipheir: dieggsy: Nice. I tried it out briefly, but there's still a very large number of eggs unported.
2019-02-14T05:07:14Z Zipheir: dieggsy: The compiler is crazy fast.
2019-02-14T05:16:59Z dieggsy: Zipheir: huh, could you elaborate on that? i have basically no metrics of comparison
2019-02-14T05:17:47Z dieggsy: the only other 'scheme' i've used semi-regularly is racket i think if you can call it that
2019-02-14T05:19:20Z Zipheir: No benchmarks, but I did some test compiles on older code and it seemed pretty fast. Albeit Chicken 4 is not the fastest compiler on the planet.
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2019-02-14T05:23:10Z Riastradh: I believe codebam asked for a floating-point result, not for decimal notation.  The usual way to do this is indeed to use exact->inexact.
2019-02-14T05:27:00Z Zipheir: Hmm, it was in R5RS but seems to have been removed in R7.
2019-02-14T05:27:20Z Zipheir: Replaced by exact/inexact, I assume.
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2019-02-14T05:36:57Z dieggsy: i've never actually read an rnrs before, i think i'll look over r7rs :)
2019-02-14T05:38:26Z dieggsy: woah, r7rs is from 2013 ? i never realized this
2019-02-14T05:38:38Z dieggsy: or i was probably told at some point and forgot
2019-02-14T05:40:16Z aeth: r7rs-small.
2019-02-14T05:40:19Z aeth: r7rs-large is WIP
2019-02-14T05:40:32Z aeth: and r7rs-gigantic-operating-system hasn't been proposed yet
2019-02-14T05:41:30Z dieggsy: righty
2019-02-14T05:49:01Z dieggsy: is there a way for syntax-rules to match a string? say i want rules for (macro "foo" body ...) (where foo is n arbitrary string) and (macro body ...) where body is definitely not a string
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2019-02-14T06:01:20Z Riastradh: dieggsy: Don't think so.
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2019-02-14T10:17:10Z rain1: lol
2019-02-14T10:17:33Z rain1: @ r7rs-gigantic-operating-system
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2019-02-14T10:56:49Z amz3: what is it?
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2019-02-14T11:09:20Z rain1: just a joke
2019-02-14T11:26:36Z comstar: what are some other scheme/lisp related channels?
2019-02-14T11:31:59Z amz3:  /join #chez
2019-02-14T11:32:02Z amz3: ;)
2019-02-14T11:49:47Z amz3 coding a test runner that outputs emacs' org-mode compatible file
2019-02-14T11:50:07Z rain1: in scheme?
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2019-02-14T11:52:51Z amz3 coding a test runner that outputs emacs' org-mode compatible file
2019-02-14T11:52:58Z amz3: compatible with srfi 64
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2019-02-14T11:59:15Z rain1: hey amz3
2019-02-14T11:59:20Z rain1: what is it written in?
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2019-02-14T12:25:23Z amz3: scheme of course
2019-02-14T12:25:36Z amz3: I need to plug into srfi-64 runner
2019-02-14T12:25:57Z amz3: I was looking for a nice way to present the results of tests
2019-02-14T12:26:03Z amz3: org-mode todo list is just that
2019-02-14T12:26:11Z amz3: rain1: scheme
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2019-02-14T13:54:30Z rain1: ah
2019-02-14T13:54:38Z rain1: I like the org mode output idea
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2019-02-14T15:28:11Z jcowan: Racket compiles very fast because it's just byte compiling.  For fast compile + fast execution, you pretty much want Chez, MIT, or Larceny.
2019-02-14T15:28:21Z jcowan: (Racket has a JIT, though)
2019-02-14T15:28:31Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/CompilerAvailable.md for details
2019-02-14T15:29:05Z jcowan: My current Schemes, fwiw, are Chibi, Chicken 5, Guile, and Ypsilon, but my needs are very particular.
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2019-02-14T16:18:30Z amz3: which report does define 'cond' without 'else' clause?
2019-02-14T16:19:13Z amz3: I got a strange error where a 'cond' forms says there is no 'else' bound
2019-02-14T16:19:33Z amz3: Exception: attempt to reference unbound identifier else
2019-02-14T16:20:45Z soegaard: Section 4.2.1
2019-02-14T16:20:47Z soegaard: https://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2019-02-14T16:20:56Z soegaard: The last <clause> may be an ``else clause,''
2019-02-14T16:21:01Z soegaard: which means it doesn't have to be.
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2019-02-14T16:29:08Z mrm: Where's the best place for info about MIT Scheme?
2019-02-14T16:29:53Z amz3: mailling list?
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2019-02-14T16:56:44Z soegaard: https://savannah.gnu.org/mail/?group=mit-scheme
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2019-02-14T18:07:22Z ecraven: jcowan: what do you use ypsilon for?
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2019-02-14T18:25:22Z soegaard: racket-news.com
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2019-02-14T18:53:19Z amz3: what is the magic that allows to 'define' something in the middle of a form like in this test: https://git.io/fh7Xk
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2019-02-14T19:00:53Z jcowan: ecraven: It's a pure R6RS implementation.  Since I'm not worried about performance, but I do want the SRFI implementations to work on R6RS, it's a reasonable choice.  Guile has a lot of other stuff that I can take advantage of, but sometimes things work on Guile that a pure R6RS system won't take.  I chose it in the beginning (over Chez, say) because of the fast setup.
2019-02-14T19:03:59Z rain1: https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/0efa071672184936741640bb9d06012c7bdbb596/lib/chibi/test.scm#L165
2019-02-14T19:04:05Z rain1: amz3:  it seems to just be a regular begin
2019-02-14T19:04:28Z rain1: so shouldn't it actually give an error when you use define after an expression?
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2019-02-14T19:17:16Z amz3: rain1: that what I am thinking too
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2019-02-14T20:13:06Z amz3: rain1: check out the org-mode output, it keeps stdout / stderr inside the test that is failing ttps://paste.gnome.org/pbbpoy8zc#line-818
2019-02-14T20:15:21Z rain1: very nice!
2019-02-14T20:26:33Z amz3: tx :)
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2019-02-14T21:28:40Z amz3: I have setup continous integration at source hut (sr.ht) https://builds.sr.ht/~amz3/job/29692 here is the configuration file: https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/azul/tree/master/.build.yml
2019-02-14T21:29:19Z amz3: by the way you don't need to pay to contribute to an existing repository, just saying..
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2019-02-14T21:48:45Z pjb: amz3: well and good, but what are your provisions for parallel reciprocal contingency?
2019-02-14T21:51:06Z Zipheir: sourcehut, another way to make your hacking life more complicated!
2019-02-14T21:51:23Z amz3: pjb: I leave that to downstream
2019-02-14T21:51:38Z amz3: Zipheir: why is that (and hello)
2019-02-14T21:52:32Z Zipheir: amz3: Hey! Sorry for the snarky interjection.
2019-02-14T21:53:27Z pjb: amz3: good idea, leave functional logistical mobility to the downstream!
2019-02-14T21:54:30Z Zipheir: pjb: But, but, what about isomorphic relational integrity?
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2019-02-14T21:58:34Z Zipheir: amz3: Actually, source hut looks pretty sane.
2019-02-14T21:58:59Z Zipheir: amz3: At least it isn't currently a massive pile of JS.
2019-02-14T22:08:50Z amz3: it was created by a wayland dev
2019-02-14T22:11:17Z Zipheir: That's not a great recommendation...
2019-02-14T22:12:55Z amz3: just saying
2019-02-14T22:13:15Z amz3: from a security point of view wayland is better, only nvidia doesn't support it, yet.
2019-02-14T22:13:19Z Zipheir: (Unless it's the one Wayland dev who spends all their time trying to convince the others to stop writing Wayland...)
2019-02-14T22:13:34Z amz3: aha
2019-02-14T22:13:40Z amz3: unlikely
2019-02-14T22:14:22Z Zipheir: Hah, all the security problems are in Weston and its plugins\, I imagine.
2019-02-14T22:14:52Z Zipheir: Seriously, X is going to look like a masterpiece of design when they're through. But anyway.
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2019-02-14T22:39:04Z pjb: Zipheir: yes, IRI must be taken into account too!  amz3 what do you do about it?
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2019-02-15T01:04:04Z yates: why is car used with functions? like this: (image (car (gimp-image-new width height RGB)))
2019-02-15T01:09:40Z friscosam: I'm guessing that gimp-image-new is returning a list
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2019-02-15T01:10:18Z Zipheir: yates: gimp- functions in script-fu always return list-wrapped values.
2019-02-15T01:10:46Z Zipheir: yates: One of the delights of script-fu, along with their inability to return Scheme booleans.
2019-02-15T01:11:39Z yates: Zipheir: so even though is documented to return a list, it actually returns a (list .) ?
2019-02-15T01:11:45Z Zipheir: wat
2019-02-15T01:11:53Z yates: sorry
2019-02-15T01:11:55Z yates: typo
2019-02-15T01:11:55Z Zipheir: What is a (list .)?
2019-02-15T01:12:07Z yates: Zipheir: so even though is documented to return an image, it actually returns an (image .) ?
2019-02-15T01:12:21Z yates: Zipheir: so even though is documented to return an image, it actually returns an (image . nil) ?
2019-02-15T01:12:27Z Zipheir: yates: (image)
2019-02-15T01:12:29Z Zipheir: yates: Yes.
2019-02-15T01:12:54Z yates: so that is true for ALL gimp- functions?
2019-02-15T01:13:02Z yates: in script-fu?
2019-02-15T01:13:05Z Zipheir: yates: If you're interested, I wrote some script-fu sanity macros https://paste.debian.net/1067916/
2019-02-15T01:13:17Z Zipheir: yates: AFAIK yes.
2019-02-15T01:14:15Z yates: ok thanks Zipheir
2019-02-15T01:14:55Z Zipheir: So yes, you'll see a LOT of (car (gimp-bogus-function ...)) in your code, unless you wrap it.
2019-02-15T01:16:36Z Zipheir: (Which is what letu does in the above, you have (letu ((val (gimp-bogus-function ...))) ...) as it should be.)
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2019-02-15T01:26:54Z yates: Zipheir: can you tell me what's wrong with this script: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/NavMMMJQ4Hmpi~Z1XjMRJQ
2019-02-15T01:27:13Z yates: oh wait, hold on.
2019-02-15T01:30:37Z yates: i found it
2019-02-15T01:32:01Z yates: where are the standard script-fu scripts located in linux?
2019-02-15T01:32:11Z yates:  /usr/local/...?
2019-02-15T01:37:26Z yates: Zipheir: any idea on where the standard scripts are located?
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2019-02-15T01:42:46Z yates: Hey Zipheir !!! you there man?
2019-02-15T01:43:37Z yates: the procedure browser lists "script-fu-gradient-example" i'd really like to take a look at, but i don't know where the scm file is located.
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2019-02-15T01:44:02Z yates: wasamasa: i remember you
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2019-02-15T01:52:06Z Zipheir: yates: I'm back now :)
2019-02-15T01:52:22Z Zipheir: yates: ~/.gimp-<version>/scripts
2019-02-15T01:57:40Z Zipheir: yates: NB that you need to call script-fu-register with a billion arguments in each script. See the (scanty) documentation in the Script-Fu console, or here https://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/gimp-using-script-fu-tutorial-first-script.html
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2019-02-15T02:46:48Z Zipheir: Crummy internet, did I miss anything?
2019-02-15T02:47:15Z kjak: Zipheir: no
2019-02-15T02:48:10Z jcowan: X, meaning thereby the protocol, *is* a master of desing.
2019-02-15T02:48:17Z jcowan: And design, even
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2019-02-15T02:52:29Z Zipheir: Yes, the protocol seems very nice, based on my little experience and littler knowledge of it.
2019-02-15T02:54:16Z Zipheir: kjak: Thanks.
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2019-02-15T15:12:53Z amz3: o/
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2019-02-15T17:57:22Z amz3: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2019-02-15T19:08:03Z yates: how do i create a gradient using the basic gimp-xyz scheme functions from the pdb?
2019-02-15T19:08:28Z Zipheir: yates: pdb?
2019-02-15T19:08:47Z yates: i tried this example but i don't have gimp-drawable-edit-gradient-fill: drawable
2019-02-15T19:08:53Z yates: procedural database
2019-02-15T19:09:53Z Zipheir: yates: I've used gimp-edit-blend to do gradients
2019-02-15T19:10:11Z Zipheir: yates: Which is the Scheme interface to the usual gradient tool.
2019-02-15T19:10:26Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2019-02-15T19:10:28Z yates: ok.
2019-02-15T19:11:25Z yates: where are the scheme files gimp uses internally (e.g., gimp-edit-blend)? are they provided somewhere in the installation, e.g., /usr/share/... ?
2019-02-15T19:11:43Z yates: i've searched and can't find them
2019-02-15T19:12:29Z Zipheir: /usr/share/gimp/... on my system (Alpine Linux), YMMV.
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2019-02-15T19:13:21Z Zipheir: /usr/share/gimp/2.0/scripts, to be specific. (No idea why it's '2.0' for gimp 2.10)
2019-02-15T19:13:37Z yates: ok, i see that
2019-02-15T19:14:26Z Zipheir: Damn, the included script-fu is some really ugly Scheme.
2019-02-15T19:14:55Z ecraven: it definitely is :-/ most of it could benefit a lot just being auto-formatted
2019-02-15T19:15:30Z yates: find . -name "*.scm" -type f -exec grep -Hn gim-edit-blend {} \; finds nothing in the /usr/share/gimp/2.0/scripts folder...
2019-02-15T19:16:37Z Zipheir: yates: It's a built-in.
2019-02-15T19:16:40Z yates: nm - i'll just checkout the git repo...
2019-02-15T19:16:44Z yates: aha.
2019-02-15T19:16:56Z Zipheir: yates: Use Browse in the Script-Fu console
2019-02-15T19:16:59Z ecraven: there's some way to access built-in function documentation
2019-02-15T19:17:03Z ecraven: ah, yea, that ^ ;)
2019-02-15T19:17:16Z yates: i want THE CODE
2019-02-15T19:17:25Z Zipheir: The console documentation is, uh, terse, but it exists.
2019-02-15T19:17:37Z Zipheir: yates: In that case, use the source, Luke.
2019-02-15T19:18:15Z yates: Thanks Obi-Wan. You're our only hope
2019-02-15T19:18:40Z yates: cloning now: https://github.com/GNOME/gimp
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2019-02-15T19:25:06Z yates: well shoot. it's not in the git repo either...
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2019-02-15T19:27:12Z yates: it's c code..
2019-02-15T19:27:46Z yates: wait, maybe that's just some sort of installer..
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2019-02-15T19:34:07Z Zipheir: GIMP is mostly C and the built-in gimp- procedures are probably just a TinyScheme interface to the C drawing procedures.
2019-02-15T19:36:37Z amz3: TinyScheme? you mean guile?
2019-02-15T19:36:58Z ecraven: gimp does not use guile, but tinyscheme
2019-02-15T19:37:08Z ecraven: I think many people *wish* it would use guile ;D
2019-02-15T19:37:57Z Zipheir: Heh
2019-02-15T19:38:39Z Zipheir: Yeah, TinyScheme is limited in some important ways.
2019-02-15T19:38:59Z Zipheir: (Not that the GIMPers care, they can't even be troubled to use proper booleans...)
2019-02-15T19:39:44Z amz3: oh
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2019-02-15T19:55:15Z comstar: GIMP? a bad interface? I'd never have guessed
2019-02-15T19:57:41Z Zipheir: Given that GIMP 2.10 included a lot of UI and cosmetic changes you'd think maybe the scripting interface would have improved a tiny bit...
2019-02-15T20:01:51Z yates: is a drawable (e.g., first parameter to gimp-edit-blend) an image or a layer?
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2019-02-15T20:05:05Z Zipheir: IIRC a drawable is almost always a layer.
2019-02-15T20:05:21Z ecraven: I think it can be both
2019-02-15T20:07:02Z Zipheir: That would be odd, since (looking at the docs) gimp-image-get-active-drawable must be applied to an image.
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2019-02-15T20:08:10Z Zipheir: But I defer to ecraven as my experience with script-fu is quite limited.
2019-02-15T20:08:53Z ecraven: it's been months, and I've never used it much, so better not believe what I say ;)
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2019-02-15T20:23:02Z comstar: does guile have a channel
2019-02-15T20:23:31Z yates: yes, #guile
2019-02-15T20:23:48Z comstar: ty
2019-02-15T20:24:49Z yates: is there a recommended picture pastebin for this channel?
2019-02-15T20:26:43Z edgar-rft: instagram :-)
2019-02-15T20:26:48Z yates: how can i make a left-right gradient that reverses half-way? like this: https://pasteboard.co/I1k4XYD.jpg
2019-02-15T20:27:37Z yates: Zipheir: i've tried various gradient modes of gimp-edit-blend but no joy
2019-02-15T20:28:13Z yates: (like the background of that screen)
2019-02-15T20:30:07Z Zipheir: One sec
2019-02-15T20:31:07Z yates: ok
2019-02-15T20:31:11Z Zipheir: yates: Wouldn't that just be a very gradual bilinear gradient?
2019-02-15T20:31:35Z yates: i tried bilinear but i saw no difference between that and linear
2019-02-15T20:31:59Z yates: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/jUIXHUNrOzlryGua4Rvs7g
2019-02-15T20:35:59Z Zipheir: The bilinear gradient gives the right result when I start from the center of the image.
2019-02-15T20:36:13Z Zipheir: er, center of whatever I'm blending.
2019-02-15T20:36:50Z yates: ok, thanks - lemme try that
2019-02-15T20:37:36Z yates: yup!
2019-02-15T20:37:38Z yates: thanks Zipheir
2019-02-15T20:37:46Z Zipheir: yw
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2019-02-15T21:05:53Z amz3: space-ship-control-system
2019-02-15T21:08:05Z Zipheir: Indeed! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZK0tW8EhQ
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2019-02-15T21:19:32Z amz3: that is talk about scheme?
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2019-02-15T21:26:40Z Zipheir: amz3: I can't remember what Lisp they used
2019-02-15T21:27:14Z Zipheir: amz3: I need to rewatch it, it's a very interesting talk.
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2019-02-16T10:14:56Z rain1: https://gist.github.com/rain-1/36c4851b7c29cf8e42f23ba6eec37be6 i wrote about closure conversion
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2019-02-16T13:42:59Z amz3: o/
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2019-02-16T14:49:34Z amz3: what about docstrings? Any similar pratice in scheme compatible with r7rs?
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2019-02-16T16:28:30Z ecraven: amz3: you can use actual docstrings, I do in chez and mit
2019-02-16T16:28:34Z ecraven: for functions, that is
2019-02-16T16:28:45Z ecraven: for variables, I haven't found a very good portable way yet
2019-02-16T16:29:02Z amz3: guile also support docstrings, yes, for variables it doesn't work
2019-02-16T16:29:25Z ecraven: if the first form in a function body is a string, r7rs-swank will show it as the documentation (on mit and chez, not sure whether I implemented it for any other system)
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2019-02-16T16:36:11Z amz3: guile does the same, but it does not work well for the more general form (define space-ship (decorator (lambda (engine) ...))
2019-02-16T17:02:47Z amz3: I am working on a documentation for my r7rs libraries for chez https://vigorous-golick-e57443.netlify.com/library/scheme/base.html
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2019-02-16T17:47:39Z amz3: interesting https://web.archive.org/web/20171216165612/http://petrofsky.org/src/alexpander.scm
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2019-02-16T18:02:28Z jcowan: I can see why Gimp devs would think Guile too heavyweight, but Chibi isn't heavyweight, and it's a lot faster and less limited.
2019-02-16T18:03:05Z jcowan: Maybe someone should write a Tiny->Chibi shim in C to make it a plug-compatible replacement.
2019-02-16T18:11:03Z rain1: didn't gimp devs literally invent guile though?
2019-02-16T18:11:16Z rain1: i thought they took tinyscheme and just added to it a bit, and thats where guile came from?
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2019-02-16T18:35:25Z amz3: guile is (was?) meant for embedding
2019-02-16T18:35:42Z amz3: it is not too heavyweight for say gnucash
2019-02-16T18:36:01Z Zipheir: When has GNU ever worried about software heaviness??
2019-02-16T18:36:33Z Zipheir: I suspect GIMP will move to Python if they ever give up TinyScheme.
2019-02-16T18:37:09Z Zipheir: At the moment there seem to be more Python scripts for GIMP than Script-fu...
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2019-02-16T20:08:11Z jcowan: rain1: No, the genealogy is SIOD > SCM > Guile, and Gimp switched from SIOD to TinyScheme at some point (which is not a descendant).
2019-02-16T20:08:40Z rain1: ah! thanks for clearing that up!
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2019-02-17T07:33:05Z Jackie[m]: Why is every emacs source code an elisp source file
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2019-02-17T08:21:02Z wasamasa: emacs is like 70% elisp, so that's not even true
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2019-02-17T08:59:44Z catonano: jcowan: how is Chibi less limited than Guile ? I don't know much about Chibi Scheme
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2019-02-17T11:05:06Z amz3: hello all :)
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2019-02-17T11:39:53Z rain1: ih!
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2019-02-17T15:54:22Z jcowan: catonano: I was saying that Chibi is less limited than TinyScheme.
2019-02-17T16:16:12Z catonano: jcowan: ah ok
2019-02-17T16:16:23Z catonano: jcowan: thanks
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2019-02-17T16:35:55Z rain1: how do i implement the y combinator using letrec?
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2019-02-17T17:07:40Z rain1: https://gist.github.com/rain-1/dc738599829ed40b55f170b574628bd0
2019-02-17T17:07:49Z mrm_: What do you mean? Defining y with letrec is trivial, it's the reverse that's tricky
2019-02-17T17:07:49Z rain1: i made a tiny lisp interpreter which lets you serialize and deserialize closures
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2019-02-17T17:08:29Z rain1: how do you do it? (define (y f) (f (y f))) will infinite loop
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2019-02-17T17:09:16Z mrm: That's the normal order Y, you need applicative order.
2019-02-17T17:10:21Z mrm: (define (Y f)(eta: f (Y f))) is a good way of defining it, where (eta: x ...) is (lambda args (apply (x ...) args))
2019-02-17T17:11:31Z rain1: so if we just want a 1-ary version
2019-02-17T17:11:39Z rain1: (define (y f) (lambda (x) ((f (y f)) x))) ?
2019-02-17T17:12:07Z mrm: (eta: stuff ...) is (lambda (x)((stuff ...) x)) then.
2019-02-17T17:12:20Z mrm: Yeah, more or less.
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2019-02-17T17:13:40Z mrm: I guess (define ((Y f) x) (f (Y f))) would suffice.
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2019-02-17T17:14:01Z mrm: Bah, obvious typo aside
2019-02-17T17:16:04Z rain1: ah!
2019-02-17T17:16:23Z rain1: it took a bit to see why it doesn't infinite loop with the eta
2019-02-17T17:22:29Z mrm: (f x) evaluates immediately. (eta: f x) is a function, it just happens that ((eta: f x) y) is (eta) equivalent to ((f x) y)
2019-02-17T17:23:16Z mrm: rain1: You might want to take a look at this -- https://gist.github.com/mromyers/b6d7678bf7a04e106b3d7d5b6493a2e7
2019-02-17T17:25:23Z rain1: ah yes I saw this before, I think it was the clearest writeup - ty for reminding me of it
2019-02-17T17:30:43Z mrm: So yeah, the general version should be (define ((Y f) . args)(apply (f (Y f)) args))
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2019-02-18T09:20:57Z rain1: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/arveuk/pl_reading_group_week_4_definitional_interpreters/   i made week 4 reading group, if you'd like to join - the paper is very relevant to scheme
2019-02-18T09:20:57Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/wiU7uBNik5
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2019-02-18T17:09:02Z lmln: hi, anybody knows how to put define-ftype inside of library?
2019-02-18T17:09:58Z amz3: stay around and look
2019-02-18T17:10:22Z amz3: lmln: did you try https://github.com/ktakashi/r6rs-pffi
2019-02-18T17:10:45Z amz3: lmln: otherwise i think you need to (import (chezscheme))
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2019-02-18T17:15:39Z lmln: thanks, i am using chez and importing chezscheme
2019-02-18T17:18:44Z amz3: can you paste something?
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2019-02-18T17:23:53Z lmln: yes
2019-02-18T17:23:59Z lmln: im trying to turn this https://pastebin.com/pwnf7ta3
2019-02-18T17:24:03Z lmln: into a library
2019-02-18T17:24:17Z ecraven: I'm using define-ftype inside libraries, with no problems
2019-02-18T17:24:29Z lmln: and im stuck with this https://pastebin.com/TyJk9DMn
2019-02-18T17:24:33Z ecraven: (library (export ..) (import ..) (include "file.scm"))
2019-02-18T17:25:28Z amz3: lmln: I think you should put 'load-shared-object' inside a 'init-ml-matrices' procedure
2019-02-18T17:25:45Z amz3: scheme doesn't allow definition after things
2019-02-18T17:25:46Z lmln: i did at first
2019-02-18T17:26:11Z lmln: but then had problems with foreign-procedures
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2019-02-18T17:28:35Z amz3: foreign-procedures should be inside lambda
2019-02-18T17:28:41Z amz3: IIRC
2019-02-18T17:28:43Z ecraven: lmln: in r6rs, you need to have definitions before statements
2019-02-18T17:28:48Z ecraven: amz3: no, there's no reason for that
2019-02-18T17:29:59Z amz3: at least that is how I have done it for wiredtiger bindings
2019-02-18T17:30:12Z amz3: see attachement at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/chez-scheme/m0dz2_gGJaw
2019-02-18T17:30:46Z amz3: ignore the macros, they are not good, stay with the base syntax forms defined by chez otherwise use cffi
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2019-02-18T17:45:12Z lmln: thanks guys
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2019-02-18T17:56:59Z lmln: Still no luck
2019-02-18T17:57:07Z lmln: Exception in foreign-procedure: no entry for "..."
2019-02-18T18:07:53Z weinholt: lmln, try putting (define dummy (load-shared-object "../ml-scm/fmatrices.o")) before the first foreign-procedure call
2019-02-18T18:09:46Z weinholt: alternatively put that last and only write foreign-procedure inside lambda, since then foreign-procedure will run after load-shared-object has run
2019-02-18T18:10:28Z lmln: library loads, thank you! it seems it does not have to be initialised also
2019-02-18T18:10:49Z lmln: too*
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2019-02-18T18:32:25Z wasamasa: rain1: is that you: https://niu.moe/@rain
2019-02-18T18:32:34Z wasamasa: rain1: the serializable closures example particularly
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2019-02-18T19:22:53Z amz3: I am reading srfi 135 https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-135/
2019-02-18T19:23:00Z amz3: In Scheme, strings are a mutable data type.
2019-02-18T19:23:24Z amz3: What if I make srfi 135 aka. immutable strings aka. text type the default string
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2019-02-18T19:23:45Z amz3: I don't see the point of mutable strings
2019-02-18T19:25:39Z amz3: I might be missing the point of r7rs
2019-02-18T19:27:22Z amz3: chez has an immutable string type so that one less problem to deal with
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2019-02-18T19:28:17Z Zipheir: SRFI-135 is awesome.
2019-02-18T19:29:54Z Zipheir: (Unfortunately not yet available in many Schemes.)
2019-02-18T19:30:40Z Zipheir: amz3: Ditto mutable pairs, there's really no point.
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2019-02-18T22:50:33Z renansj: Hey.
2019-02-18T22:50:48Z renansj: I'm reading SICP and solving some exercises.
2019-02-18T22:51:02Z renansj: When i wrote this code it doens't work, somebody can help me?
2019-02-18T22:51:04Z renansj: https://pastebin.com/h1k6qNa7
2019-02-18T22:51:23Z renansj: The function big it's working fine.
2019-02-18T22:52:35Z Zipheir: renansj: You've got some syntax problems.
2019-02-18T22:53:55Z Zipheir: renansj: The style's also weird, which might be making it harder to see what's wrong.
2019-02-18T22:54:22Z Zipheir: renansj: Hint, you're missing an enclosing list.
2019-02-18T22:54:36Z renansj: Ok, thank-you.
2019-02-18T22:54:47Z renansj: I'll fix it and back here to say what's wrong. :D
2019-02-18T22:55:15Z Zipheir: Cool, feel free to ask questions if you get stuck.
2019-02-18T22:55:42Z renansj: Thank-you, but i'll try harder first.
2019-02-18T22:56:35Z Zipheir: Also, consider what sumOfMax returns if (and (> x z) (> x y)) is false.
2019-02-18T22:58:18Z renansj: Done, fixed, thank-you for the hint, i rewrite with another code style and found what's wrong.
2019-02-18T22:58:32Z renansj: You rock. :D
2019-02-18T22:58:54Z Zipheir: yw, glad I could help some.
2019-02-18T22:59:48Z lmln: it may be easier to spot mistakes if you group the parentheses
2019-02-18T22:59:53Z lmln: http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-style
2019-02-18T23:00:31Z Zipheir: Don't scatter the Pringles!
2019-02-18T23:00:47Z renansj: Oh, thank-you, i'll read it.
2019-02-18T23:01:07Z Zipheir: SICP is a good model for Scheme style.
2019-02-18T23:01:55Z renansj: I'm trying to learn functional programming too.
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2019-02-18T23:05:53Z Zipheir: You'll certainly get the basics of FP if you read the chapters on higher-order functions, streams, etc.
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2019-02-18T23:08:42Z Zipheir: (Chapters of SICP, of course.)
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2019-02-18T23:19:28Z jcowan: amz3: I agree that mutable but fixed-length strings have little point, but we are stuck with them for backward compatibility.
2019-02-18T23:19:46Z jcowan: Fortunately, the SRFI 135 sample implementation is very portable.
2019-02-18T23:21:19Z jcowan: SRFI 140 provides variable-length mutable strings, but is not portable.
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2019-02-18T23:27:36Z amz3: why aren't red and tangerring edition documented on r7rs.org, is it because there is still some balloting that will happen or just a lack of time?
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2019-02-19T00:17:56Z yates_home: hey Zipheir, the bilinear gradient works but looks like the gradient rate is too abrupt, leaving a strip in the middle: https://pasteboard.co/I1NSl62.png
2019-02-19T00:18:19Z yates_home: do you a way to control the gradient rate?
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2019-02-19T00:19:12Z yates_home: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/KjIz7thu2iMjF4ZRXA7gog
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2019-02-19T00:20:24Z yates_home: this image does not have the strip: https://pasteboard.co/I1NTVhw.jpg
2019-02-19T00:20:39Z yates_home: and yet i used the color picker to select the exact same begin/end colors
2019-02-19T00:21:13Z Zipheir: yates_home: Ah, gimp. Interactively, you can just drag further away from the gradient point of origin. In a script, change the offset parameter of gimp-blend.
2019-02-19T00:21:59Z Zipheir: yates_home: #gimp might be more help, though I've no idea how good a channel it is.
2019-02-19T00:22:20Z yates_home: no one answered me over a period of two days there. horrible channel.
2019-02-19T00:22:45Z yates_home: thanks - very good suggestion.
2019-02-19T00:24:37Z Zipheir: Yeah, I notice they have ESR's "How to ask questions" in their channel topic. That's not a great start.
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2019-02-19T00:25:21Z yates_home: ESR?
2019-02-19T00:26:20Z Zipheir: Eric S. Raymond. He wrote a massive essay on asking questions which people like to cite.
2019-02-19T00:29:25Z yates_home: ah
2019-02-19T00:29:37Z Zipheir: The funniest summary of said massive essay: https://blog.codinghorror.com/dont-ask-us-questions-well-just-ignore-you/
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2019-02-19T01:12:53Z yates_home: Zipheir: do you have any hints for me on how to
2019-02-19T01:13:03Z yates_home: "emboss" text into a background?
2019-02-19T01:13:49Z yates_home: i'm thinking it would look really slick to have the company logo embossed onto the background screen e.g. in the bottom right corner
2019-02-19T01:14:23Z Zipheir: yates_home: Gimp has a several emboss/normalmap type filters, IIRC
2019-02-19T01:14:23Z yates_home: actually not text but a shape.
2019-02-19T01:14:31Z yates_home: in scheme
2019-02-19T01:14:54Z yates_home: i'm doing everything in scheme for reproducibility
2019-02-19T01:15:44Z yates_home: i guess the shape would be specified by a svg?
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2019-02-19T01:16:05Z Zipheir: yates_home: You'd probably create some type of normalmap from the shape/text then use Bump Map to create the emboss effect, off the top of my head.
2019-02-19T01:17:07Z Zipheir: yates_home: I can't say how to translate that to Scheme, as I haven't tried it. But there's plug-in-bump-map, etc.
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2019-02-19T01:39:56Z jcowan: amz3: I've just been busy, is all, trying to find a new job.
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2019-02-19T02:37:38Z jcowan: amz3: Okay, I've fixed as much as I can.  If you go to r7rs.org, which redirects to a static page, then click the link R7RSHomePage in the top banner, you get to the dynamic home page, which now does mention both Red and Tangerine and has links to their reference pages.
2019-02-19T02:37:54Z jcowan: I've asked Art Gleckler to eliminate the extra click currently required.
2019-02-19T02:44:19Z gwatt: jcowan: is there a goal to move away from bitbucket as the cms?
2019-02-19T02:44:39Z jcowan: Not particularly.  Why?
2019-02-19T02:45:36Z gwatt: I just saw that r7rs.org had its own page now and wasn't wrapped in the bitbucket interface
2019-02-19T02:46:40Z gwatt: (I also think that bitbucket is a shitty interface for a largely static site
2019-02-19T02:48:38Z jcowan: It's static in the sense that it's not interactive, but it's not static in the sense that pages don't change much: they do.
2019-02-19T02:49:04Z jcowan: small.r7rs.org, which is where r7rs.org currently points, is completely static: it reflects a frozen snapshot.
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2019-02-19T02:51:33Z jcowan: which was also the base of the bitbucket site
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2019-02-19T03:10:34Z gwatt: I meant static in the no DOM-rewriting, each page self-contained manner
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2019-02-19T03:22:09Z Zipheir: You can always clone from bitbucket and avoid the web interface.
2019-02-19T03:22:40Z jcowan: Indeed, though then you see the raw markdown that almost all the pages are written in.
2019-02-19T03:23:10Z Zipheir: (Hint to markdown users: Write comprehensible text files.)
2019-02-19T03:23:18Z jcowan: I do my best.
2019-02-19T03:24:24Z jcowan: In particular, though, the procedure/macro prototypes are a bit hard to read as plain text.
2019-02-19T03:24:31Z Zipheir: It's often funny how 'lightweight' markup languages become heavy over time. There's a lot of GitHub-optimized markdown out there that is unreadable.
2019-02-19T03:26:53Z jcowan: `(foo `*bar baz* [ *zam* ]`)` for example
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2019-02-19T03:27:57Z Zipheir: Eh, I think the files in the r7rs-wg1 repo are quite readable.
2019-02-19T03:28:33Z Zipheir: jcowan: Any news on ContextsCowan lately?
2019-02-19T03:30:18Z jcowan: No.  What little time I have to work on Scheme really should go to the SRFI 160 implementation.  I've thrown together something out of bits and pieces of other SRFIs, but I don't have tests and I don't have the library files etc.
2019-02-19T03:30:42Z jcowan: Design is easier and more seductive than implementation, at least for me.
2019-02-19T03:32:41Z Zipheir: Sorry, I shouldn't nag, especially as you said you've been busy a few lines ago.
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2019-02-19T03:51:08Z jcowan: No problem.
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2019-02-19T08:46:37Z amz3: https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/1097307043881308161
2019-02-19T08:48:26Z rain1: oh my GOD
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2019-02-19T08:48:44Z amz3: I somewhat agree with gwatt hosting on bitbucket looks somewhat like a temporary solution, for instance srfi website looks more legit.
2019-02-19T08:49:39Z amz3: at the same time bitbucket allows information to travel, so it's also a good solution, maybe one should not worry about css
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2019-02-19T15:53:34Z amz3: what will follow red and tangerine editions, what will be their subjects?
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2019-02-19T20:22:01Z Zipheir: amz3: Don't you have a shiny Scheme landing page?
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2019-02-19T20:24:35Z amz3: Zipheir: yes
2019-02-19T20:24:46Z amz3: why?
2019-02-19T20:25:07Z amz3: http://scheme-lang.com/
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2019-02-19T20:44:18Z Zipheir: That was the url.
2019-02-19T20:51:41Z Zipheir: amz3: I like your comment about serif fonts.
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2019-02-19T21:52:50Z amz3: tx
2019-02-19T21:53:15Z amz3: I am add a paragraph about r7rs when I will know what the plan for the other editions
2019-02-19T21:53:25Z amz3: and link r7rs.org
2019-02-19T21:54:00Z Zipheir: Nice.
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2019-02-19T22:05:16Z amz3: is the plan for other edition explained somewhere?
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2019-02-19T22:07:33Z amz3: got it
2019-02-19T22:07:42Z amz3: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/c7413db3fbfc0c7dc7d000664cca94876b93a024/GreenDocket.md
2019-02-19T22:07:52Z amz3: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/c7413db3fbfc0c7dc7d000664cca94876b93a024/YellowDocket.md
2019-02-19T22:08:00Z amz3: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/c7413db3fbfc0c7dc7d000664cca94876b93a024/OrangeDocket.md
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2019-02-19T22:17:57Z amz3: here is the full list of dockets https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/c7413db3fbfc0c7dc7d000664cca94876b93a024/WG2Dockets.md
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2019-02-19T22:24:49Z amz3: that is neat
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2019-02-19T22:29:29Z amz3: btw pffi looks better than taylan bytestructures, the naming is much better and cleaner, but not sure every case is covered.
2019-02-19T22:29:39Z amz3: bytestructures has had extensive use in guile
2019-02-19T22:29:45Z amz3: I am testing pffi
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2019-02-20T11:43:54Z amz3: I tested r6rs-pffi and is not ready for prime time yet
2019-02-20T11:44:05Z amz3: the API is nice tho
2019-02-20T11:44:20Z amz3: also it doesn't have disjoint types for foreign struct
2019-02-20T11:44:36Z amz3: and the define-struct-macro is not completly hygenic
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2019-02-20T12:02:37Z ecraven: amz3: I find chez's ffi rather nice to use
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2019-02-20T12:29:13Z amz3: I prefer pffi syntax
2019-02-20T12:29:43Z amz3: apparantly cffi will be balloted
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2019-02-20T12:32:23Z amz3: actually it is been reassigned, to sure what it means, yet.
2019-02-20T12:32:27Z amz3: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/c7413db3fbfc0c7dc7d000664cca94876b93a024/ReassignedDocket.md?fileviewer=file-view-default
2019-02-20T12:32:27Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/himLf843eB
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2019-02-20T12:42:22Z gwatt: amz3: I think that means they've been actively deferred.
2019-02-20T12:42:50Z gwatt: I.e., "We're not going to spend any time on this now"
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2019-02-20T19:09:12Z duncanm: la la la
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2019-02-20T22:26:20Z amz3: rudybot: (scheme mapping) is a very great library
2019-02-20T22:26:25Z rudybot: amz3: is suddenly considerring mapping the difficulties in interlanguage library use.
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2019-02-21T03:31:17Z jcowan: amz3: "reassigned" means "reassigned to some future working group / Scheme version" aka "out of scope".
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2019-02-21T03:32:38Z jcowan: amz3: aka "deep, deep rathole"
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2019-02-21T04:32:20Z jcowan: amz3: In those bitbucket URLs, please replace the large random string with "default" so you always link to the latest.
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2019-02-21T04:56:32Z jcowan: also, WG2Dockets.md links to all dockets, and I've changed the home page to link to it as well.
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2019-02-21T11:33:11Z amz3: jcowan: did you forget to push, I see no dockets in the homepage
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2019-02-21T11:59:00Z ecraven: does r6rs *forbid* unquoted vectors, or just not 8
2019-02-21T11:59:03Z ecraven: *require* them?
2019-02-21T12:09:35Z jcowan: I would say it forbids them.  4.3.3 says "This is the external representation of a vector, not an expression that evaluates to a vector", as opposed to the language of 4.3.4: "This is the external representation of a bytevector, and also an expression that evaluates to a bytevector."
2019-02-21T12:10:02Z jcowan: Unless specially noted, anything that is not permitted in R6RS is forbidden.
2019-02-21T12:10:04Z ecraven: can there be only one external representation?
2019-02-21T12:10:16Z ecraven: hm.. unfortunate :-/
2019-02-21T12:11:01Z jcowan: For a vector?  Yes, modulo #(10) and #(#xA) being the same vector (in the sense of equal?).
2019-02-21T12:11:56Z Jackie[m]: Suddenly math
2019-02-21T12:12:25Z ecraven: jcowan: wait, so bytevectors are self-evaluating in r6rs, but vectors are not?
2019-02-21T12:13:15Z jcowan: Just so.  Originally neither were self-evaluating, but there was a comment specifically in favor of self-evaluating bytevectors early on.  My comment in favor of self-evaluating vectors was rejecte.d
2019-02-21T12:13:30Z ecraven: seems a bit .. inconsistent to me
2019-02-21T12:17:01Z jcowan: No, I have the history wrong: http://www.r6rs.org/formal-comments/comment-154.txt
2019-02-21T12:17:21Z jcowan: I wanted to make everything, including the empty list, self-evaluating.
2019-02-21T12:18:20Z jcowan: I see that we were almost stuck with the name "bytes" instead of "bytevector".  "Are these two byteses the same (in the sense of equal?)?  Ugh.
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2019-02-21T12:21:13Z ecraven: I don't have any strong opinions about () so far, any reasons for one or the other?
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2019-02-21T13:26:14Z amz3: in srfi-146: (define mapping-set! mapping-set)
2019-02-21T13:27:44Z amz3: there is something i don't understand in the specification of srfi 146, if (mapping-set! mapping-vN 'key 'mutation) mutate mapping-vN (ie. version N) it means that all previous version of mapping-vM are mutated?
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2019-02-21T13:29:01Z jcowan: Pro () => (): continuity with the Lisp past, including CL and Elisp (and even present in Chez up to the R6RS transition).  Anti: as the linked note says, (...) represents an invocation of a procedure or macro defined by the first subform, in which case () is malformed, not having a first subform.
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2019-02-21T13:30:18Z jcowan: I wrote a significant piece of Scheme code in old Petite Chez assuming that () => (), which worked: when I went to port it to Chicken, I had to change all those to '(), being careful not to change (lambda () ...) to (lambda '() ...)
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2019-02-21T13:31:20Z jcowan: amz3: SRFI 146 isn't actually persistent (as I said it was on ##lisp).
2019-02-21T13:32:02Z jcowan: It's linear-update, meaning that the "!" procedures *may* mutate or not, and the caller *must* assume that the passed argument has been consumed and always use only the result.
2019-02-21T13:32:32Z jcowan: so defining foo-set! as foo-set is always legitimate
2019-02-21T13:33:55Z jcowan: In particular, SRFI 1 reverse! completely hoses what is passed to it in the sample implementation, leaving the old value unusable, but this behavior is not a requirement of the SRFI, which allows (define reverse! reverse), and iirc this is what Chibi does.
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2019-02-21T13:37:20Z jcowan: amz3: somehow the update (which I made directly on the website) was never committed: I have re-added it.
2019-02-21T13:38:35Z amz3: so it is not like (call-with-mapping-as-mutable (lambda (mutable-mapping) ...) -> mapping)
2019-02-21T13:38:37Z amz3: like https://github.com/rtfeldman/seamless-immutable#asmutable
2019-02-21T13:39:41Z amz3: fash library as a concept of transient hash: https://github.com/amirouche/zehefyu93/blob/master/guile/neon/fash.scm#L111
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2019-02-21T16:31:19Z nly: I wanna see some datastructure implementations in scheme
2019-02-21T16:32:11Z nly: (mainly to stea.. i mean learn)
2019-02-21T16:33:22Z nly: btw, is Scheme pronounced with a "sh" or "sk"?
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2019-02-21T16:37:25Z pjb: nly: linked list: (a b c)
2019-02-21T16:37:33Z pjb: nly: vector: #(a b c)
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2019-02-21T16:39:44Z nly: hmm, is there any implementation of those in scheme(sheem)?
2019-02-21T16:39:53Z nly: thanks
2019-02-21T16:41:33Z pjb: nly: https://small.r7rs.org/attachment/r7rs.pdf
2019-02-21T16:43:36Z nly: thanks
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2019-02-21T22:10:06Z johnjay: wasamasa: what % would you say scheme and emacs overlap?
2019-02-21T22:10:27Z johnjay: like if a scheme black belt started working on emacs how far ahead of the class would he be
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2019-02-21T22:17:26Z amz3: 42
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2019-02-21T22:28:29Z wasamasa: johnjay: you mean emacs lisp, right
2019-02-21T22:28:36Z johnjay: right
2019-02-21T22:28:50Z wasamasa: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/index.html
2019-02-21T22:28:50Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Gku0iXiD6S
2019-02-21T22:28:52Z johnjay: as in the stuff in /lisp/emacs-lisp and /lisp/cedet and so on
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2019-02-21T22:29:15Z wasamasa: that again makes no sense at all
2019-02-21T22:29:21Z wasamasa: why would that be relevant?
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2019-02-21T22:31:50Z johnjay: because some concepts overlap between scheme and other lisps
2019-02-21T22:32:01Z johnjay: progn. let*. caddar
2019-02-21T22:32:17Z wasamasa: well, sure, but there's not much that can run as is in both of them
2019-02-21T22:32:40Z wasamasa: that file demonstrates how you can bootstrap something more useful from that much
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2019-02-21T23:56:52Z Zipheir: johnjay: How many years do you have to spend at a Scheme dojo to get a Scheme black belt?
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2019-02-22T00:26:28Z duncanm: hmm
2019-02-22T00:26:30Z duncanm: Failed to connect to git.savannah.gnu.org port 443: Operation timed out
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2019-02-22T00:47:01Z johnjay: Zipheir: (format "%s" "5 years")
2019-02-22T00:49:32Z Zipheir: johnjay: Odd, that's a CL format statement with a C format string...
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2019-02-22T00:51:30Z Zipheir: Actually, the answer is '5 pounds of flax'.
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2019-02-22T02:31:40Z duncanm: hmm, savannah is back
2019-02-22T02:31:43Z duncanm: Riastradh: around?
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2019-02-22T02:32:50Z duncanm: hmm, i'm trying to build mit scheme 10.1.5 on my mac, and it's failing
2019-02-22T02:33:01Z duncanm: but maybe it's because it's picking the build I got from Homebrew
2019-02-22T02:36:59Z duncanm: oh i see
2019-02-22T02:37:08Z duncanm: let me try the more involved instructions
2019-02-22T02:39:15Z duncanm: sigh, so it doesn't look like i can build 10.1.5 using 9.2
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2019-02-22T03:14:02Z duncanm: cph says 9.2 can compile 10.1, so I'll try that
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2019-02-22T05:57:10Z johnjay:  /b 18
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2019-02-22T20:14:18Z yates: what is the -c option?
2019-02-22T20:14:28Z yates: i can't find it here: https://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en_US/gimp-fire-up.html#gimp-concepts-running-command-line
2019-02-22T20:14:45Z yates: yet i have it in a script i wrote about 10 years back
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2019-02-22T20:16:05Z wasamasa: when in doubt, look at the source
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2019-02-22T20:17:14Z yates: wasamasa: yeah, well... that's not always so quick.
2019-02-22T20:17:22Z wasamasa: it's authoritative
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2019-02-22T20:18:36Z wasamasa: FWIW, I located it
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2019-02-22T20:19:28Z yates: when loading a scheme script in batch mode ala "cat my.scm | xargs -0 gimp -b, is there a way to single step ?
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2019-02-22T20:20:06Z wasamasa: lol
2019-02-22T20:20:15Z wasamasa: do you seriously expect tinyscheme to have that?
2019-02-22T20:20:20Z yates: yes
2019-02-22T20:20:29Z wasamasa: I have bad news for you then
2019-02-22T20:20:55Z wasamasa: > As such, it does not offer IDEs or extensive toolkits although it does sport a small top-level loop, included conditionally.
2019-02-22T20:20:58Z yates: so what does -c do?
2019-02-22T20:21:12Z wasamasa: the source will tell you :>
2019-02-22T20:21:17Z wasamasa: I found it in two minutes
2019-02-22T20:21:54Z jcowan: You might want to try debugging in DrRacket, if your code is reasonably portable Scheme.
2019-02-22T20:22:57Z wasamasa: generally, having a debugger is a luxury, get used to staring hard at code and printing out things
2019-02-22T20:23:38Z jcowan: Of course.
2019-02-22T20:25:04Z wasamasa: the only mention of debug in its source tree is about CFLAGS
2019-02-22T20:25:30Z yates: wasamasa: have you ever looked at the source before, namely the command line options?
2019-02-22T20:25:38Z wasamasa: I just did, yes
2019-02-22T20:25:48Z yates: before just now, i mean
2019-02-22T20:26:29Z yates: i just spent two minutes and came up with nothing.
2019-02-22T20:26:36Z yates: but i've never seen it before
2019-02-22T20:26:50Z yates: i see some cl options handled, but not all
2019-02-22T20:27:01Z wasamasa: FWIW, it's also documented in the manual
2019-02-22T20:27:03Z wasamasa: man gimp
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2019-02-22T20:32:58Z yates: oh, so the on-line doc is missing information. great.
2019-02-22T20:33:35Z yates: i see it in the manpage yes
2019-02-22T20:33:48Z wasamasa: yeah, it happens
2019-02-22T20:34:01Z wasamasa: my general impression with the gnome stuff is that they neglect their online presence
2019-02-22T20:34:33Z Zipheir: The Gimp online manuals are pretty shallow, indeed.
2019-02-22T20:35:43Z Zipheir: wasamasa: Well, knowing the Gnome developer attitude, they _could_ write comprehensive documents but that would confuse the average user...
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2019-02-23T06:02:40Z yates_home: i'm using gimp-edit-blend to generate gradients but i'm not happy with the results, namely, the rate at which the gradient changes.
2019-02-23T06:03:49Z yates_home: how would i generate my own gradients using more elementary functions?
2019-02-23T06:04:21Z yates_home: i've scoured the net for this info but can't seem to find any good examples using scheme - most are in terms of manual gimp operations
2019-02-23T06:07:08Z yates_home: Zipheir: thanks for the original suggestion of gimp-edit-blend, but do you have any pointers to more fundamental operations to do gradients?
2019-02-23T06:07:23Z yates_home: wasamasa: how about you, scheme-fu master? :
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2019-02-23T09:08:13Z amz3: 135 sloc later I have an in memory triple store thx to (scheme mapping) and minikanren
2019-02-23T09:09:28Z amz3: https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/azul/tree/master/src/azul/data/base/yiwen.scm
2019-02-23T09:10:21Z amz3: minikanren is called (azul logic) in the above
2019-02-23T09:11:39Z amz3: also it is immutable :)
2019-02-23T09:11:56Z amz3: except I expose a mutable api because that is what I need
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2019-02-23T09:26:37Z pjb: /whoami\
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2019-02-23T12:33:24Z wasamasa: yates: no idea how you get that idea
2019-02-23T12:33:58Z wasamasa: yates: if anything, I believe I'm good at debugging stuff in general, like by using the universal technique of thinking hard, then writing down the correct answer
2019-02-23T12:34:23Z wasamasa: yates: in the case of scheme-fu, I still believe that looking at the code can be enlightening
2019-02-23T12:34:46Z wasamasa: yates: maybe you'll find some funky C macro for defining exported API and the respective argument types
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2019-02-23T21:24:34Z amz3: I fixed the repository, now it should work
2019-02-23T21:24:46Z amz3: https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/azul
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2019-02-24T04:44:46Z dieggsy: is there some program (like rlwrap? rlwrap itself?) that can handle auto insertion of closing pairs (paren, double quote) for scheme interpreters that don't provide this (which is most AFAIK)
2019-02-24T04:45:08Z dieggsy: rlwrap does matching (blinking the cursor), but not auto insertion as far as i can tell
2019-02-24T04:46:35Z dieggsy: er, i usually use them in emacs, which of course takes care of this, but sometimes i mess around o nthe terminal
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2019-02-24T06:11:26Z mejja: Riastradh, would love to see the new closure consing code merged into master
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2019-02-24T06:51:09Z mejja: rudybot, The design of C++20 is now ``feature´´ complete!
2019-02-24T06:51:12Z rudybot: mejja: Thinking of the setup roughly 1-2 days (mostly done), implementing 80% of it (working, but with hitches) maybe 6 hours, doing the CSS design so I actually *like* it maybe another 4 hours (more if I notice I need images I don't have yet). Problem is the remaining 20% of the implementation, which will likely be another 30 hours or something. %)
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2019-02-24T11:43:48Z wasamasa: dieggsy: you could try writing a rlwrap plugin
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2019-02-24T11:47:20Z nly: (define monstrosity (cons 'a (cons 'b (cons 'c 'magic))))
2019-02-24T11:47:21Z nly:  
2019-02-24T11:47:22Z nly: ;;; magic should point to monstrosity
2019-02-24T11:47:35Z nly: how can i do this? lol
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2019-02-24T11:48:56Z wasamasa: oh, a circular list
2019-02-24T11:49:06Z wasamasa: you need to use set-cdr!
2019-02-24T11:51:19Z nly: thanks
2019-02-24T11:52:02Z ggole: letrec?
2019-02-24T11:52:05Z wasamasa: srfi-1 provides circular-list
2019-02-24T11:52:54Z nly: thanks
2019-02-24T11:53:50Z wasamasa: and your scheme might provide special read-syntax to construct them
2019-02-24T11:55:27Z nly: I use guile
2019-02-24T11:58:01Z nly: got it, thanks :)
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2019-02-24T16:45:57Z jcowan: I'm looking for suggestions for the name of records/structures in the C/Fortran/Pascal/whatever style: backed by byte vectors rather than slots.  I'm designing a library for them and I can never get far without a good name.
2019-02-24T16:46:35Z jcowan: I plan to handle the usual atomic types, strings fixed-length and maximum-length, and vectors, sums (unions) and products (structs).
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2019-02-24T17:57:05Z ecraven: jcowan: is it meant to directly map to C structs?
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2019-02-24T17:57:11Z ecraven: then I'd suggest "struct" :P
2019-02-24T17:57:40Z jcowan: Structs, unions, arrays, strings, or primitive types can all be the top level.
2019-02-24T17:58:19Z jcowan: s/primitive/atomic
2019-02-24T17:59:20Z ecraven: something with foreign-? I think I've seen foreign-value in chez somewhere
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2019-02-24T18:00:14Z jcowan: yes, there are various foreign-* in different implementations, which is why I want to avoid it
2019-02-24T18:00:32Z jcowan: I'm sort of grasping at something like organized-bytevectors, but that is very long.
2019-02-24T18:00:53Z jcowan: this lib imposes an organization on otherwise featureless bytevectors
2019-02-24T18:01:12Z ecraven: ah, I very good idea
2019-02-24T18:01:20Z ecraven: impose-order!
2019-02-24T18:02:14Z ecraven: there are quite a variety of Gods that represent Order ;)
2019-02-24T18:02:27Z jcowan: alas, "ordered" means "put in an order" rather than "organize"
2019-02-24T18:02:49Z jcowan pokes around in the thesaurus
2019-02-24T18:04:35Z jcowan: structured-bytevectors might do, but it is too much like taylanub's very similar (but incompatible) bytestructures, provided in Guile
2019-02-24T18:05:41Z jcowan: solkan-, barros- recluce-bytevectors??
2019-02-24T18:06:15Z jcowan: marduk-?
2019-02-24T18:11:46Z jcowan: A prayer by Ander Monson:  "[To] the gods of order, the gods of collection, of cataloging and cross-referencing, the gods of three stars aligning in an essay, the gods of open skies and those who count and sort the clouds, the snow, or other weather, the gods of preservation, the sentence gods and those who sentence us to keep composing under penalty of irrelevance or despair, and to those who watch over books, these brittle
2019-02-24T18:11:46Z jcowan: things that contain our best attempts."
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2019-02-24T18:30:40Z duncanm: ordered bytevectors
2019-02-24T19:13:29Z jcowan: duncanm: see above:  "ordered" refers to *an* order (as in sort order), at least in computing.  The sense you mean appears in "ordered liberty" (freedom without license) but is a little archaic now.
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2019-02-24T19:53:10Z amz3: what is an "ordered bytevector"?
2019-02-24T19:54:16Z wasamasa: what do you think of packed/dense records?
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2019-02-24T19:59:27Z amz3: I backlogged at https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/scheme-2019-02.txt
2019-02-24T19:59:41Z amz3: +1 wasamasa
2019-02-24T20:01:35Z Zipheir: alien-*
2019-02-24T20:02:24Z Zipheir: (similar to 'foreign-' but unused AFAIK)
2019-02-24T20:12:20Z jcowan: amz3: Nothing, but that doesn't mean the name isn't misleading
2019-02-24T20:13:56Z jcowan: "Alien" would be good if it was totally for the FFI, but it should be useful even without an FFI.  The overhead of a few short strings as Scheme strings is probably going to be large compared with a single 3*n bytevector (assuming the strings are ASCII)
2019-02-24T20:19:16Z Zipheir: In that case, I like wasamasa's 'dense' suggestion (which was not a dense suggestion).
2019-02-24T20:24:25Z wasamasa: lol
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2019-02-24T20:24:48Z wasamasa: the thing I dislike about it is that it can be confused with existing dense vectors
2019-02-24T20:24:56Z niklasl: maybe the word 'layout' could be used. record-with-memory-layout seems a bit unwieldy though :)
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2019-02-24T20:27:27Z wasamasa: or byte-records
2019-02-24T20:27:43Z wasamasa: you have a byte-vector you use to represent a vector, so it becomes a byte-record
2019-02-24T20:30:55Z amz3: s/represent a vector/represent a record/?
2019-02-24T20:31:19Z wasamasa: right
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2019-02-24T22:26:19Z rotty: bikehshedding request to all Schemers using statically-typed languages: how would you call the accessors for the last element of an improper list? I now have `fn rest(&self) -> Option<&Atom>` and `fn tail(&self) -> Value`, where `Value` is the sum type representing a Lisp value.
2019-02-24T22:26:34Z rotty: At least the latter feels wrong.
2019-02-24T22:33:36Z jcowan: rotty: Do you mean the true last element, or the non-nil tail?
2019-02-24T22:38:13Z rotty: jcowan: the non-nil tail
2019-02-24T22:39:10Z jcowan: Then I know of no usual name.  `last` is the last element, and `last-tail` is the last pair, so this is the composition of cdr and last-tail.
2019-02-24T22:39:13Z rotty: (my `rest()` returns `None` when the thing is not a dotted list, while `tail` returns a special value if it is not a dotted list.
2019-02-24T22:40:45Z rotty: ... note that the former returns an `Atom` (i.e. non-list), while the latter returns a `Value`, where `Atom` is a variant of the sum type `Value`.)
2019-02-24T22:43:42Z jcowan nods
2019-02-24T22:44:31Z jcowan: so None is not used as '()?
2019-02-24T22:45:36Z jcowan: sorry, s/last-tail/last-pair/ of course
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2019-02-24T22:46:20Z rotty: jcowan, no Value::List(vec![]) is; note that this is not a representation for implementing a Lisp, but rather for parsing/printing from Rust.
2019-02-24T22:46:28Z jcowan nods
2019-02-24T22:46:33Z jcowan: So I think last-tail would indeed be a good name
2019-02-24T22:46:48Z jcowan: certainly less misleading than last.
2019-02-24T22:46:58Z rotty: See https://github.com/rotty/lexpr-rs and https://docs.rs/crate/lexpr/ if curious
2019-02-24T22:48:05Z jcowan: will do so later
2019-02-24T22:48:24Z jcowan: SRFI 1 is a good source of both names and procedures
2019-02-24T22:48:55Z rotty: yeah, `last_tail()` seems better than `tail()`.
2019-02-24T22:49:05Z rotty: Yeah, I've skimmed SRFI-1
2019-02-24T22:49:15Z jcowan: in particular "dotted list" is standard for "improper but not circular list"
2019-02-24T22:50:38Z rotty: I could change from `ImproperList` to `DottedList`, but so far I don't intend dealing with circular lists at all
2019-02-24T22:51:10Z jcowan: sounds right to me
2019-02-24T22:51:24Z jcowan: also, ` and , are just syntactic sugar in Scheme, but not so in Common Lisp, where the implementation is allowed to expand them directly to calls on Lisp procedures in an unpredictable way (involving append or even nconc aka append!)
2019-02-24T22:51:38Z jcowan: or they are syntactic sugar, but not what you expect
2019-02-24T22:51:54Z jcowan: sbcl expands them to sbcl:quasiquote, sbcl:unquote, etc. but not all CLs do
2019-02-24T22:52:33Z rotty: Ok, I'll correct that inaccuracy
2019-02-24T22:54:12Z rotty: But in both cases, there is no _need_ to have the reflected specially in the constructed AST, right?
2019-02-24T22:54:27Z rotty: s/the reflected/them reflected/
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2019-02-24T23:02:55Z Riastradh: rotty: Why do you have improper lists in a statically typed language?
2019-02-24T23:04:27Z rotty: Riastradh: the goal of the library is to read and write several S-expression dialects, such as Scheme-style S-expressions
2019-02-24T23:04:50Z Riastradh: For what purpose?
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2019-02-24T23:05:20Z rotty: And the `Value::ImproperList` variant represents an improper (or rather, dotted) list
2019-02-24T23:06:00Z rotty: I'm writing an RSS reader that should be able to act as an emacs backend (for one use case)
2019-02-24T23:08:18Z rotty: Another is that the `sexp` macro shipped by the library provides a convenient way to embed structured, dynamically-typed data into a rust program. You might for example imagine using that to embed assembler snippets (coded in an S-expression format) or web assembly into your rust code.
2019-02-24T23:09:46Z rain1: why don't you make a type like this instead:  <sexp> = pair <sexp> <sexp> | atom <atom> | number <int> |...
2019-02-24T23:10:05Z rain1: rather than having List, ImproperList and so on.. just a pairs
2019-02-24T23:10:07Z rain1: recursive pairs*
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2019-02-24T23:12:21Z rotty: rain1: I deliberatly choose Rust's vector data type to represent lists, as it provides easier access to the data from Rust, and as I'd guess it might be more efficient (though I'd need to benchmark that).
2019-02-24T23:13:24Z rain1: i don't think you need to benchmark that, it is going to be more efficient to access the ith element
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2019-02-24T23:13:45Z rain1: but it will be less efficient to take the cdr of a list, since you'd have to copy (or slice?) the slice
2019-02-24T23:13:53Z Jackie[m]: I have an opinion here
2019-02-24T23:13:58Z Jackie[m]: Why does LISP suck for cross compatibility, especially on embedded devices such as Android?
2019-02-24T23:14:30Z rotty: note that the purpose is representing read S-expression data, and facilitate data extraction, not general-purpose lispy transformations (such taking the `cdr` and being able to represent the result as a S-expression value again)
2019-02-24T23:15:46Z rain1: why not use JSON instead? it has arrays instead of lists built from nested pairs
2019-02-24T23:16:08Z rotty: rain1: I plan on restructuring the parser in a way that you could build alternative representations.
2019-02-24T23:16:15Z rain1: regardless of efficiency, the change of representation is too big a departure it makes things confusing
2019-02-24T23:16:55Z rotty: rain1: I'd like to emit native Emacs Lisp data for the Emacs backend use-case.
2019-02-24T23:18:07Z rotty: rain1: also, for representing some data, the syntactical lightweightness of S-expressions may be (subjectively) preferable compared to JSON.
2019-02-24T23:18:57Z rain1: the reason i suggested JSON is because you wanted to use arrays internally
2019-02-24T23:19:21Z rotty: rain1: for example, have a look at this assembler coded embedded into Scheme: <https://r0tty.org/git/scheme/avrth/tree/forth/vocables/primitive.sls>
2019-02-24T23:19:25Z rain1: keeping the model close to the representation is valuable because it makes things understandable and simple
2019-02-24T23:21:11Z rotty: I was on the edge regarding the list representation, and may still change my mind in a further iteration, if I see a compelling use case
2019-02-24T23:21:48Z rotty: I was not wanting to represent arrays, but chose vectors as I thought they were better for the task.
2019-02-24T23:22:59Z jcowan: I'd use Rust vectors for Lisp vectors, and a true linked-list type for Lisp lists.
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2019-02-24T23:26:11Z rotty: heading to bed, I'll sleep over it :-)
2019-02-24T23:27:57Z Jackie[m]: Common Lisp and Scheme, being a a free specification of Lisp, is the reason why there are so many variants?
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2019-02-24T23:48:35Z Riastradh: rotty: Why not a schema in the Rust type system for how to map between application-relevant types for data structures, and the external representation in JSON or S-expressions or whatever?
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2019-02-25T00:29:27Z duncanm: hey Riastradh
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2019-02-25T00:53:25Z lisbeths: I just recently learned that scheme preceded common lisp and that the chicken scheme specification came after the common lisp specification.
2019-02-25T00:55:04Z lisbeths: This puts me in the camp of scheme over common lisp.
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2019-02-25T00:57:22Z Zipheir: Why?
2019-02-25T00:57:41Z Zipheir: FORTRAN came before Scheme...
2019-02-25T00:58:29Z Jackie[m]: I know that this isn't Common Lisp
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2019-02-25T01:00:18Z lisbeths: Fortran is not lisp.
2019-02-25T01:00:29Z lisbeths: It does not have full syntactic macros or homiconicity
2019-02-25T01:01:04Z Jackie[m]: But why does it have a make error on ECL
2019-02-25T01:01:21Z Jackie[m]: `extern char _end[];`
2019-02-25T01:04:29Z Zipheir: Jackie[m]: That definitely needs some more context.
2019-02-25T01:04:49Z jcowan: Scheme, in the person of Guy Steele, influenced Common Lisp by making the default scope of variables be lexical rather than "lexical in the compiler, dynamic in the interpreter"
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2019-02-25T11:56:22Z Jackiew2: Use vs import vs load?
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2019-02-25T14:59:57Z amz3: I think I went a little bit too far with my project to build an editor to replace emacs
2019-02-25T15:00:12Z amz3: it is more work that i thought
2019-02-25T15:01:20Z deuill: What's that? Have you pushed any code anywhere?
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2019-02-25T15:01:33Z amz3: it is at many places
2019-02-25T15:01:55Z amz3: the one that should work is at https://github.com/a-guile-mind/azul.scm
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2019-02-25T15:02:11Z amz3: deuill: ^
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2019-02-25T15:03:00Z amz3: at the same time I have a lot of fun, I am rewriting the "application tree" to use am in-memory triple store
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2019-02-25T15:06:38Z deuill: Thanks amz3, I'll give it a look-see.
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2019-02-25T15:07:18Z amz3: :)
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2019-02-25T20:14:37Z rotty: Riastradh: regarding your question " Why not a schema in the Rust type system for how to map between application-relevant types for data structures, and the external representation in JSON or S-expressions or whatever?":
2019-02-25T20:16:07Z rotty: that exists, its called Serde <https://serde.rs/>. I'm planning to support that in my `lexpr` project as well, but I want to support "dynamically typed" Value type as well.
2019-02-25T20:17:36Z rotty: for instance, I have a small tool (not yet published) that reads in S-expressions in one variant (e.g. Emacs Lisp) and converts to another one (e.g. Scheme). For such applications, a statically-typed schema won't work.
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2019-02-25T20:17:50Z wasamasa: does it rhyme with merde?
2019-02-25T20:18:22Z rotty: Also, the "embedding S-expression data" requires a dynamically typed `Value` type as well.
2019-02-25T20:18:42Z rotty: ... S-expression data" use-case ...
2019-02-25T20:20:00Z rotty: wasamasa: only if you have a heavy french accent in English, I guess :-)
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2019-02-25T20:29:34Z amz3: rotty: what are you working on? I don't understand? it up online somewhere?
2019-02-25T20:30:04Z amz3: is it up online somewhere?
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2019-02-25T20:34:07Z rotty: amz3: https://crates.io/crates/lexpr
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2019-02-25T21:00:07Z amz3: rotty: what is the point of embedding sexp into rust, there is not explanation of that in why.md
2019-02-25T21:02:55Z amz3: I understand the point of embedding scheme in a rust program, but not the point of embedding sexp..
2019-02-25T21:03:09Z amz3: by the way there is rust scheme called ruse, and I love that name.
2019-02-25T21:03:40Z amz3: https://github.com/ruse-lang/ruse
2019-02-25T21:06:54Z amz3: anyway
2019-02-25T21:06:55Z amz3: night!
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2019-02-25T21:39:10Z Zipheir: "His main interest is, in any case, not in small programs, but in very large ambitious systems of programs.
2019-02-25T21:39:17Z Zipheir: Usually the systems he undertakes to build ... have very grandiose but extremely imprecisely stated goals."
2019-02-25T21:39:41Z Zipheir: --Joseph Weizenbaum on "The Compulsive Programmer"
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2019-02-25T21:40:36Z Zipheir: Send not to know for whom the 'why?' bell tolls, it tolls for thee and thy hackery.
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2019-02-26T12:53:56Z amz3: o/
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2019-02-26T13:51:31Z amz3: so hop, is still scheme code https://github.com/manuel-serrano/hop/commit/2c6553a19194460a576552b5598fde7de7f48d34
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2019-02-26T16:42:07Z amz3: I hope it is ok if I use SRFI document' texts in my project to document r7rs
2019-02-26T16:42:32Z amz3: e.g. https://vigorous-golick-e57443.netlify.com/scheme/hash-table.html
2019-02-26T16:42:46Z amz3: I will properly credit people in the project
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2019-02-26T16:45:28Z amz3: changing topic, what do you think of gerbil scheme?
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2019-02-26T18:44:20Z jcowan: amz3: Of course it is. See the SRFI copyright at the end of every SRFI.
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2019-02-26T19:22:31Z amz3: tx!
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2019-02-26T22:17:47Z daviid: any wiki package entirely written in scheme out there?
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2019-02-26T22:29:55Z aeth: daviid: try searching https://pkgs.racket-lang.org/
2019-02-26T22:32:08Z aeth: It looks like the one exact 'wiki' match is this, though: https://github.com/racket/racket-lang-org/blob/master/stubs/wiki.rkt
2019-02-26T22:32:59Z amz3: racket web stuff is... complex.
2019-02-26T22:33:00Z aeth: I'm not sure if http://community.schemewiki.org/ is running Scheme. I think it might be, but the two links in the footer are both dead links.
2019-02-26T22:33:32Z aeth: There's also this https://wiki.call-cc.org/
2019-02-26T22:34:07Z aeth: Chicken libraries are here: http://eggs.call-cc.org/5/
2019-02-26T22:34:14Z aeth: It has this: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/5/qwiki
2019-02-26T22:35:05Z aeth: No match for 'wiki' here and it's unlikely Guile has its own scheme-hosted wiki. https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/libraries/
2019-02-26T22:36:03Z amz3: that the state of scheme sadly..
2019-02-26T22:36:11Z aeth: daviid: That's the major ones
2019-02-26T22:36:27Z daviid: aeth: tx!
2019-02-26T22:36:56Z aeth: For what it's worth, Common Lisp doesn't appear to have a wiki that's a 'wiki' text match, either. https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html
2019-02-26T22:36:58Z Zipheir: Well, the rest of the world is busy pushing HTML around, we Schemers can do more interesting things.
2019-02-26T22:36:58Z aeth: I think Emacs Lisp has wikis
2019-02-26T22:37:16Z amz3: Zipheir: like gopher?
2019-02-26T22:37:24Z Zipheir: amz3: sure!
2019-02-26T22:37:33Z aeth: Zipheir: Alternatively, Lispers don't like to document things.
2019-02-26T22:37:50Z aeth: (Racket might be the major exception here, but that's probably because the professors need to show their students something.)
2019-02-26T22:37:53Z Zipheir: Actually, a Gopher wiki tool backed by a VCS would be fun to hack together.
2019-02-26T22:39:03Z amz3: same story all over again
2019-02-26T22:39:26Z amz3: a scheme wiki should be backend by a versioned triple store, nothing else :)
2019-02-26T22:39:32Z aeth: daviid, Zipheir: What I think is going on is that people are probably building their own custom wikis with lightweight web frameworks and markup (possibly either using "wiki markup" (mediawiki markup?) or markdown libraries)
2019-02-26T22:39:35Z amz3: s/backend/backed/
2019-02-26T22:39:42Z Zipheir: "The software is semi-complete and documented on a Gopher wiki." The ultimate in curse-of-lisp stories.
2019-02-26T22:40:11Z Zipheir: aeth: Yes.
2019-02-26T22:40:31Z aeth: There was a time pre-2010 or so when *everyone* used MediaWiki, phpBB, and Wordpress, but "these days" a lot of people write their own wiki/forum/blog stuff from frameworks because they're easier than the raw PHP/Perl that the old days had.
2019-02-26T22:40:35Z Zipheir: aeth: Or using GitHub/BitBucket/what have you.
2019-02-26T22:40:40Z aeth: that too
2019-02-26T22:40:50Z amz3: yep
2019-02-26T22:40:55Z aeth: Github (and Gitlab knockoff) pages and wikis
2019-02-26T22:41:00Z amz3: or bitbucket...
2019-02-26T22:41:02Z aeth: That ate a lot of tiny wikis
2019-02-26T22:41:18Z aeth: In part because the hosting is free.
2019-02-26T22:41:25Z Zipheir: (Or Fossil built-in repository wikis, for all of 10 people.)
2019-02-26T22:41:31Z amz3: free and easy to setup
2019-02-26T22:41:42Z amz3: fossil!
2019-02-26T22:41:44Z Zipheir: free as in beer, you mean.
2019-02-26T22:41:49Z amz3: yes
2019-02-26T22:41:57Z amz3: sadly
2019-02-26T22:42:32Z daviid: not knowing much, does gitlab 'really' offers what a wiki s/w offers?
2019-02-26T22:42:46Z amz3: they offer gitlab pages
2019-02-26T22:42:52Z amz3: that is backed by git
2019-02-26T22:43:04Z aeth: daviid: If Github offers it, Gitlab offers it. The wiki isn't as good as Mediawiki and/or your custom one. Probably *way* easier to avoid spam that way, though.
2019-02-26T22:43:19Z aeth: (Medawiki administration is 95% avoiding spam)
2019-02-26T22:43:29Z aeth: (Security by obscurity ftw)
2019-02-26T22:43:35Z amz3: you write you pages in whatever language you link, dump the html somewhere in a git then: git commit -am "dump" && git push
2019-02-26T22:44:02Z aeth: Well, both Github and Gitlab offer both pages and tied-to-the-repo wikis
2019-02-26T22:44:19Z amz3: oh they offer proper wiki.
2019-02-26T22:44:30Z amz3: What do you think about my versioned triple store based wiki?
2019-02-26T22:44:47Z aeth: Well, both types of offerings are effectively less featureful mediawiki replacements
2019-02-26T22:45:34Z amz3: mediawiki... I would love to replace that part of the web with scheme...
2019-02-26T22:46:13Z aeth: The cons with a repo-tied wiki are fewer features and fewer formatting options, the pros are linked accounts, easy discoverability, and no need to host it.
2019-02-26T22:46:56Z amz3: the other cons is proper html / directory structure to match the serving url
2019-02-26T22:47:32Z amz3: like username.example.com/repository/ vs repository.example.com/
2019-02-26T22:48:07Z aeth: I bet these days more than half (by quantity, not users) of hosted wikis are probably single page applications, as terrible as that sounds for a wiki (because it is)
2019-02-26T22:48:39Z Zipheir: Augh, the pain.
2019-02-26T22:49:36Z aeth: that's fine you can pretend like it's a separate page with #
2019-02-26T22:49:43Z Zipheir: Pages are confusing -> single massive page. URLs are confusing -> single massive site!
2019-02-26T22:49:51Z Zipheir: The Web is folding...
2019-02-26T22:50:07Z aeth: this is clearly the way to go: mycoolwiki.example.com/#MainPage
2019-02-26T22:50:38Z aeth: As long as it waits for you to read for about 30 seconds and then pops up a gigantic "PLEASE SUBSCRIBE TO MY NEWSLETTER" pseudo-popup because nobody hates popups on the web right
2019-02-26T22:50:42Z Zipheir: For some value of "the way to go"...
2019-02-26T22:52:17Z aeth: imo just burn the whole Web down and start over with some other Internet document format. Let "applications" dominate what's left of the Web.
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2019-02-26T22:52:45Z aeth: We can start by replacing CSS with what should have been there the whole time from the start... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Style_Semantics_and_Specification_Language
2019-02-26T22:53:06Z Zipheir: Woo, DSSSL.
2019-02-26T22:53:19Z Zipheir: Has its own problems, but compared to CSS...
2019-02-26T22:53:20Z aeth: for when a DSL just isn't enough
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2019-02-26T22:54:48Z aeth: If I wanted to replace the Web and have it be exclusive and geeky like the 90s WWW, I'd hide the feature as an easter egg in an application or game and leave it 100% undocumented. Of course, these days no one would do such a thing because of the possible security risks...
2019-02-26T22:55:07Z Zipheir: Hah
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2019-02-26T22:55:59Z Zipheir: Some century Xanadu will actually happen and the Web will be tossed on the junkheap of history.
2019-02-26T22:56:22Z aeth: I was thinking more like https://www.xkcd.com/1305/
2019-02-26T22:56:22Z Zipheir: (in some universe)
2019-02-26T22:56:32Z aeth: except instead of chat, a networked document format, like the old WWW
2019-02-26T22:57:02Z aeth: bury it under the Help menu. No one clicks on the Help menu post-1999.
2019-02-26T22:57:40Z aeth: 90% of the time it just opens up a page in your default web browser so it just trains people to skip that step and just go straight to Google first
2019-02-26T22:57:41Z Zipheir: That's a good xkcd :)
2019-02-26T23:00:02Z aeth: Now, the trick would be (1) coming up with a sexpy hyperlinked document format that works well cross-Lisps (at least EL/CL/Scheme/Racket) and (2) getting a network of hosts and provide hidden gateways to it in some obscure documentation corner and (3) keep it as far from the mainstream Internet as possible, which instantly exposes anything niche to that one September.
2019-02-26T23:00:05Z amz3: there is many ad free bb
2019-02-26T23:00:52Z amz3: aeth: let's do it
2019-02-26T23:01:02Z aeth: Although since it's based on hyperlinks and there's no search engines, even if the mainstream discovered it, there'd be no navigation to those new sites
2019-02-26T23:01:24Z amz3: you don't want a search engine?
2019-02-26T23:01:52Z amz3: I made a search engine a few month ago in scheme
2019-02-26T23:02:01Z amz3: in guile that is
2019-02-26T23:02:13Z aeth: amz3: If it's just hyperlinked, networked documentation, then foo-help can link to pages on bar-help and vice versa, but there's no way to explode into the mainstream.
2019-02-26T23:02:18Z daviid: how about being able to write wiki pages using texinfo (an 'augmented' texinfo with missing features for that purpose), then also augment stexi ... then we'd write all our wiki pages using stexi
2019-02-26T23:03:09Z amz3: problem is we can not agree on something (lisp curse or something) and when someone build something litte or no care is given
2019-02-26T23:03:11Z aeth: amz3: As soon as you have a search engine that searches all of the wikis (let's assume they're non-web wikis) including new ones that are crawled, foo-help can link to that, and that an go anywhere, and now you just reinvented the Web
2019-02-26T23:03:32Z amz3: aeth: not really, because there is no javascript
2019-02-26T23:03:44Z amz3: no remote code exec with pseudo sandbox
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2019-02-26T23:04:01Z aeth: Maybe not even formatting.
2019-02-26T23:04:51Z aeth: Could just be some extended Markdown (probably easier to find wide support than texinfo, but... would be hard to find feature-agreement between libraries between lisps)
2019-02-26T23:05:09Z amz3: why not skribe?
2019-02-26T23:05:22Z aeth: Well, I mean, you could design this documentation format so that the client determines the formatting, so you can't really get the web at all.
2019-02-26T23:05:41Z aeth: Not even no-JS: no-CSS.
2019-02-26T23:05:49Z amz3: yes
2019-02-26T23:05:52Z amz3: why not?
2019-02-26T23:06:34Z amz3: but the sexp based language need a vocabulary to be able to render/translate at some point the documents
2019-02-26T23:07:04Z aeth: semantic
2019-02-26T23:07:15Z amz3: a core set of primitives
2019-02-26T23:08:23Z amz3: that is what I trying to build my documentation. I use a high level language and translate down to a lower level language
2019-02-26T23:08:32Z aeth: probably too controversial because this is assuming :keywords and there are (at least) three kinds but... (:article (:heading "Foobar") (:p "Hello, world!")) or whatever.
2019-02-26T23:09:14Z aeth: Mixing some styling would be difficult. Probably should be designed to be easy to generate from markdown and similar common markups.
2019-02-26T23:09:16Z amz3: that what html is for, we can keep html vocabulary and ditch the rest replacing with scheme
2019-02-26T23:09:31Z amz3: makrdown is not extensible
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2019-02-26T23:09:58Z aeth: html is very problematic because it's very permissive when what you want is something that fails early, not tries to guess what you mean when you generate an invalid document
2019-02-26T23:10:07Z aeth: true xml would be better
2019-02-26T23:10:40Z aeth: xml has a bit of an ambiguity with sexpy mappings, though. the whole <foo bar="hello"> <baz> 42 </baz> </foo> where it's unclear if things should be like bar or baz
2019-02-26T23:11:19Z aeth: I also prefer quoted strings, although it would admittedly complicate the case of "Hello, <b> foo </b>"
2019-02-26T23:12:40Z amz3: here is how I write my documentation : https://git.sr.ht/~amz3/azul/tree/master/src/azul/logic.sfx
2019-02-26T23:13:05Z amz3: https://paste.gnome.org/p3bdlilh4
2019-02-26T23:13:43Z amz3: I translate that down to html, but I can just keep the sxml form and pass it to a renderer
2019-02-26T23:14:26Z aeth: once you have an s-expression format it's not too hard to translate it into another, so some mismatch between what people want isn't that big of a deal if the backends aren't too hard
2019-02-26T23:14:49Z aeth: s-expressions are basically the ideal intermediate format, after all
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2019-02-26T23:44:42Z Zipheir: amz3: What sexp doc format is that? Your work?
2019-02-26T23:45:38Z daviid: imo, for documentation, texinfo is unbeatable, but so it alo becomes unbeatable for wiki documents, we'd need to augemnt it oneway or another I guess
2019-02-26T23:51:59Z Zipheir: Isn't a wiki more of a collaboration/access issue than one of format?
2019-02-26T23:53:20Z Zipheir: Any public/group-pushable VCS repository with documentation files in it is a rudimentary wiki.
2019-02-26T23:58:04Z Zipheir: And inter-wiki links. Links + public/group write access = wiki.
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2019-02-27T00:00:08Z Zipheir: s/inter/intra/
2019-02-27T00:00:40Z Zipheir: END wikirave
2019-02-27T00:07:35Z aeth: Zipheir: We were discussing hyperlinked wikis with inter-wiki hyperlinks without necessitating the web (although URIs are essentially mandatory so it's a good thing that all the web ones start with www.)
2019-02-27T00:07:46Z aeth: Zipheir: So a common format of some sort at some level is needed.
2019-02-27T00:14:03Z Zipheir: aeth: One annoying thing about the Web, however, is its being tied to a document format.
2019-02-27T00:14:58Z Zipheir: aeth: One thing Gopher did reasonably well is to have an extremely minimal menu format and to leave the rest to other protocols.
2019-02-27T00:15:51Z aeth: Zipheir: you can open other things in web browsers, they're just constantly removing them for security reasons
2019-02-27T00:16:16Z aeth: open them while you still can!!!!
2019-02-27T00:17:41Z Zipheir: Hah. Yes, securing the massive HTML5 behemoth browsers by removing tiny features no-one uses...
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2019-02-27T00:20:58Z Zipheir: But that's one of the problems with coming up with non-Web wiki software (or anything). People expect sessions, authentication, encrypted everything, etc. All the security stuff that's been hacked onto the Web over the years.
2019-02-27T00:22:35Z aeth: Zipheir: Don't have an integrated editor
2019-02-27T00:22:39Z aeth: At least, not initially
2019-02-27T00:22:48Z aeth: What's the reader:editor ratio for Wikipedia, anyway?
2019-02-27T00:24:21Z Zipheir: Integrated web editors all suck anyway.
2019-02-27T00:24:26Z aeth: For documentation, downloading and pushing like git (maybe even using git) would/could work
2019-02-27T00:25:00Z aeth: Since pretty much everyone programmer has used one of git/hg/svn/cvs/etc. (and at this point probably one of git)
2019-02-27T00:25:47Z aeth: You could also distinguish between editor clients and read-only client since this is intentionally designd to be multi-client
2019-02-27T00:25:58Z aeth: s/read-only client/read-only clients/
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2019-02-27T03:37:01Z jcowan: DSSSL isn't the ancestor of CSS, it's the ancestor of XSLT.
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2019-02-27T07:16:50Z amz3: Zipheir: it is called skirbe. My project is to get together a r7rs library for chez scheme
2019-02-27T07:17:03Z amz3: Zipheir: skribe*
2019-02-27T07:19:56Z amz3: Zipheir: https://vigorous-golick-e57443.netlify.com/
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2019-02-27T08:24:52Z amz3: mosty
2019-02-27T08:24:55Z amz3: mostly
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2019-02-27T12:04:49Z nly: Recursion is incredibly fun. Is there any contruct for data that can do "branching"? 'Cons works fine, albeit it's very laborious. http://nly.info.tm:9001/guile/maze.scm
2019-02-27T12:06:34Z Jackiew2: I wish learning Scheme isn't difficult like other languages
2019-02-27T12:06:49Z Jackiew2: Because I read two books that failed me
2019-02-27T12:07:32Z Jackiew2: Both containing complicated maths (calculus stuff)
2019-02-27T12:08:39Z nly: Same here. Despite Sussman's claims that scheme has "less culture" in a good way, you still have to guess a lot, which might seem obvious to someone who has gone through the efforts.
2019-02-27T12:09:25Z nly: The best bet is to stick with it and read lots! The original Scheme paper and the Revised reports can help you see the "simplicity"
2019-02-27T12:10:53Z Jackiew2: I don't even have knowledge of calculus
2019-02-27T12:11:12Z Jackiew2: And I'd rather skip exercises relating to it
2019-02-27T12:11:17Z nly: http://www.scheme-reports.org/
2019-02-27T12:11:50Z Jackiew2: I just need a scheme tutorial on how to program with it
2019-02-27T12:12:27Z nly: Use Emacs, or Guix, you'll get to apply the knowledge in useful ways.
2019-02-27T12:13:12Z Jackiew2: I don't use a libre OS though
2019-02-27T12:13:23Z Jackiew2: Because that would mean my laptop won't work
2019-02-27T12:13:27Z nly: Emacs runs fine on Windows or Mac
2019-02-27T12:13:30Z nly: :)
2019-02-27T12:13:34Z Jackiew2: So I use something like Arch
2019-02-27T12:13:37Z Jackiew2: Or Antergos
2019-02-27T12:13:57Z Jackiew2: Is Emacs obviously available on Arch?
2019-02-27T12:14:25Z nly: pacman -S emacs?
2019-02-27T12:14:56Z Jackiew2: Yes
2019-02-27T12:15:04Z Jackiew2: And is it ever safe to skip exercises
2019-02-27T12:15:20Z Jackiew2: Especially if you really don't know what this is
2019-02-27T12:15:56Z nly: Idk
2019-02-27T12:16:07Z nly: It's better to make progress?
2019-02-27T12:16:12Z Jackiew2: Well... basically can an 11th grader read SICP?
2019-02-27T12:16:25Z nly: sure, why not
2019-02-27T12:16:44Z Jackiew2: I mean calculus is like a high school thing
2019-02-27T12:16:51Z nly: it's "simple" after you kind of know the "trivial stuff"
2019-02-27T12:17:28Z Jackiew2: I'm more interested in the data structures
2019-02-27T12:17:39Z Jackiew2: Depending on how deep the math is
2019-02-27T12:17:54Z Jackiew2: I mean if SICP isn't forcing to feed you a lot of calculus
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2019-02-27T12:18:10Z Jackiew2: Like some pages involve algebra etc
2019-02-27T12:18:27Z Jackiew2: Especially no freaking physics
2019-02-27T12:19:18Z nly: haha, just have fun
2019-02-27T12:20:28Z Jackiew2: Is Khan academy valuable these days
2019-02-27T12:20:34Z tolja: For physics there's SICM
2019-02-27T12:21:05Z Jackiew2: Khan academy has like almost everything for calculus
2019-02-27T12:26:39Z Jackiew2: If I have a twisted mind
2019-02-27T12:26:56Z Jackiew2: Multivariable Calculus is the last boss
2019-02-27T12:27:04Z Jackiew2: Like a video game
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2019-02-27T13:51:45Z syniseth: Horrible language! spent an hour debugging because I wrapped the body of my let statement in parentheses :^(
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2019-02-27T13:56:56Z pjb: Yeah, parentheses are significant in lisp. DUH!
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2019-02-27T14:51:16Z notzmv: lmao
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2019-02-27T14:59:12Z wasamasa: thus spoke pjb
2019-02-27T15:01:15Z pjb: It's rather obvious, nonetheless, perhaps tutorials don't insist enough on that fact, which is quite different in almost all other languages.  People are used to add or remove parentheses at will…
2019-02-27T15:05:04Z wasamasa: I once encountered someone learning clojure who was quite conflicted about this
2019-02-27T15:05:20Z wasamasa: "I use parens for so many things, but how do I group things? Not with parens surely?"
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2019-02-27T15:10:51Z amz3: Jackiew2: it might help https://a-guile-mind.github.io/book/
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2019-02-27T15:40:55Z nly: I want to get either of the values which doesn't signal an error: (magic-or (+ "w" 2) 1) -> 1. what would be a magic-or?
2019-02-27T15:41:53Z amz3: a macro
2019-02-27T15:42:14Z amz3: using 'guard'
2019-02-27T15:43:24Z nly: Where can i find this in the Guile reference?
2019-02-27T15:44:55Z nly: got it. thanks
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2019-02-27T15:50:38Z amz3: I am wondering if there will be a 'type-of' procedure in scheme one day. In python, it is considered bad pratice to use it.
2019-02-27T15:50:52Z amz3: that said, to debug it is very handy.
2019-02-27T15:51:58Z jcowan: I'll consider adding one when I define the standard predicate generic functions (assuming PGFs make it into R7RS-large)
2019-02-27T15:52:22Z jcowan: With generic functions, it's dead easy: you add a method for each type that returns some symbol appropriate to the type.
2019-02-27T15:53:07Z amz3: so generic functions will make it, maybe? it is a part of scheme I don't know yet.
2019-02-27T15:56:43Z siraben: amz3: Some Scheme procedures cannot be typed though
2019-02-27T15:56:53Z siraben: (lambda (x) (x x))
2019-02-27T15:57:28Z amz3: what does it mean?
2019-02-27T15:57:42Z siraben: But you would be able to check the type of most expressions
2019-02-27T15:57:59Z siraben: Just nothing with lambdas since the untyped lambda calculus doesn't have types
2019-02-27T15:58:26Z siraben: amz3:  the problem is that Scheme has a very complex/non-existent type system
2019-02-27T15:59:18Z siraben: For instance, dependent types: (if (number? x) "hello" 'bar)
2019-02-27T15:59:32Z siraben: ^even for simple expressions like these two
2019-02-27T15:59:47Z amz3: siraben: they are types, r7rs say scheme object have a type. I am not sure I follow. You mean type in another sens that 'dynamic typing' vs 'static typing'
2019-02-27T16:00:07Z siraben: So the only thing similar to `type-of` is the type of a value
2019-02-27T16:00:09Z siraben: Of the scheme object
2019-02-27T16:00:13Z siraben: amz3:  ah yes
2019-02-27T16:00:24Z siraben: I was thinking you wanted type inferencing in a lisp!
2019-02-27T16:00:55Z ggole: You can certainly type (lambda (x) (x x)), with recursive types
2019-02-27T16:00:56Z siraben: Wouldn't that be easy to define then? (define (type-of x) (cond ((number? x) 'number) ...))
2019-02-27T16:01:33Z siraben: ggole:  however it's undecidable in general
2019-02-27T16:01:40Z amz3: I have not a background in haskell, but IIUC haskell has type for functions, but no mainstream language has that feature.
2019-02-27T16:02:19Z dieggsy: amz3: i mean, we have procedure?
2019-02-27T16:02:27Z siraben: amz3:  Of course there's a type for functions
2019-02-27T16:02:35Z amz3: what is it?
2019-02-27T16:02:47Z siraben: Are you referring to type classes, polymorphic types, etc?
2019-02-27T16:02:48Z dieggsy: amz3: a predicate to check if an object is a function
2019-02-27T16:02:56Z siraben: Well it depends on the function
2019-02-27T16:03:05Z amz3: what is the difference between function and procedure?
2019-02-27T16:03:20Z siraben: Prelude> :t (+)
2019-02-27T16:03:21Z siraben: (+) :: Num a => a -> a -> a
2019-02-27T16:03:22Z dieggsy: AFAIK none but don't quote me on that
2019-02-27T16:04:29Z siraben: A "procedure" is the Scheme terminology for what is known as a "function" in haskell
2019-02-27T16:04:42Z siraben: Just terminology
2019-02-27T16:04:53Z siraben: A Haskell "function" is not a C "function"
2019-02-27T16:04:58Z amz3: tx
2019-02-27T16:05:01Z amz3: how do you see the difference in terms of lambda calculus between dynamic typed language and static typed language?
2019-02-27T16:05:08Z siraben: Even though they are called the same
2019-02-27T16:05:12Z dieggsy: siraben: but to be fair, people use 'function' willy nilly for almost any procedure/function-type thing in any language
2019-02-27T16:05:42Z siraben: dieggsy:  I suppose, R5RS certainly sticks with procedure as the term
2019-02-27T16:05:45Z siraben: the spec*
2019-02-27T16:06:21Z dieggsy: of course, since they define the standard. i meant more any random progammer you might encounter
2019-02-27T16:07:23Z siraben: I remember there's a moment in one of the SICP lectures when Gerald Sussman blurts out "function" and corrects himself "oops I meant procedure, procedure", as if it were some sin
2019-02-27T16:07:35Z amz3: hey
2019-02-27T16:07:43Z amz3: siraben: how do you see the difference in terms of lambda calculus between dynamic typed language and static typed language?
2019-02-27T16:08:05Z amz3: maybe there is no difference in lambda calculus
2019-02-27T16:08:05Z siraben: amz3:  That's an ambigious question, what do you mean in terms of lambda calculus?
2019-02-27T16:08:48Z siraben: The type of an expression in a statically typed language can be computed, whereas such a task is often undecidable in dynamically typed ones
2019-02-27T16:08:57Z siraben: They correspond to different calculi
2019-02-27T16:09:24Z siraben: e.g. Hindley Milner vs. untyped lambda calculus vs. simply typed lambda calculus vs. calculus of constructions
2019-02-27T16:10:13Z siraben: (I'm not a language expert so if I'm wrong please correct me anyone)
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2019-02-27T16:12:56Z jcowan: The idea is that "function" is something mathematical whereas "procedures" are written in code.  The `sin` procedure computes an approximation to the sin function.
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2019-02-27T16:23:47Z pjb: Also, there are several procedures to compute the same function.
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2019-02-27T21:53:15Z Zipheir: Hmm, my understanding was that "procedure" is often used to describe something function-like that includes side effects or has other properties alien to the mathematical meaning of 'function'.
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2019-02-28T00:00:26Z siraben: Yes, that too.
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2019-02-28T00:23:53Z Riastradh: amz3: Function types have existed in mainstream programming languages for decades, including languages like C.  Nothing special about Haskell having them!
2019-02-28T00:57:18Z aeth: If C can be said to have functions, or types.
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2019-02-28T14:27:58Z amz3: plop
2019-02-28T14:29:01Z amz3: tx everyone for the function vs procedure, I think jcowan definition makes more sens to me: The idea is that "function" is something mathematical whereas "procedures" are written in code.  The `sin` procedure computes an approximation to the sin function
2019-02-28T14:29:29Z ecraven: in the end, it's all just words... it depends on how you define them in your context
2019-02-28T14:29:37Z amz3: also: pjb | Also, there are several procedures to compute the same function.
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2019-02-28T14:29:49Z jcowan: That's the convention adopted by Scheme people, anyway.  In plenty of other languages, including Common Lisp, procedures are called "functions".
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2019-02-28T14:30:08Z ecraven: isn't it Pascal where a procedure has no return value, but a function does?
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2019-02-28T14:31:49Z amz3: maybe I don't know Pascal
2019-02-28T14:37:46Z jcowan: Yes, that's right.  In more modern language such procedures are often called commands, though I know of no language that uses `command` as a keyword except MFTL
2019-02-28T14:40:15Z jcowan: s/language/metalanguage/1, s/language/programming language/2
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2019-02-28T14:41:23Z jcowan: the difference however is much more fundamental: commands can return multiple values, have unlimited side effects, and can catch exceptions, whereas functions cannot do these things, though they can have side effects that cannot affect the rest of the program
2019-02-28T14:42:48Z syniseth: In MIT-scheme why does this code work for generating the power set? I understand the algorithm but shouldn't  map applied to an empty list be ineffective thus this would only generate an empty list? Is this specific to scheme ?
2019-02-28T14:43:46Z syniseth: https://gist.github.com/SynthSeth/487edd9c8c96b919fc5bd97a9815f5c4
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2019-02-28T14:45:39Z syniseth: Okay I get it, using (list nil) makes a list of a list!
2019-02-28T14:45:44Z syniseth: That
2019-02-28T14:46:02Z syniseth: I thought for awhile it just made an empty list
2019-02-28T14:46:23Z amz3: :)
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2019-02-28T14:52:34Z siraben: Is there even distinction at the assembly level? Maybe they're called "subroutines" or nothing at all
2019-02-28T14:52:51Z siraben: It's all arbitrary
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2019-02-28T16:57:18Z aeth: The hard thing about programming is that each language calls the same thing something different, and the name is often from mathematics, but unrelated to the actual mathematical object.
2019-02-28T16:58:00Z pjb: If that was the only hard thing…
2019-02-28T16:58:58Z aeth: e.g. a "vec" object is more likely to actually be a mathematical vector than a "vector" because library authors can't use the name of a built-in!
2019-02-28T16:59:35Z aeth: pjb: Well, API design is hard, and this just shows one small part of that.
2019-02-28T17:05:58Z pjb: in scheme, perhaps.  In CL, there's a big difference between cl:vector and math:vector…
2019-02-28T17:06:55Z pjb: ie. here we can compare the solutions to the naming problem, but there are a lot of other difficulties in programming.
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2019-02-28T18:33:00Z amz3: off by one errors :)
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2019-02-28T18:37:54Z Zipheir: amz3: I know what joke you're referring to :)
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2019-02-28T20:24:34Z dieggsy: what's the best way to go from '(1 2 3 4) to '((1 2) (2 3) (3 4)) in scheme?
2019-02-28T20:24:50Z dieggsy: i feel like there's some map/fold magic i can pull but it's not coming to me
2019-02-28T20:25:10Z ecraven: (map (lambda (a b) (list a b)) list (cdr list)) might work
2019-02-28T20:25:43Z ecraven: note this necessitates an r7rs scheme, because the lists differ in length
2019-02-28T20:25:55Z wasamasa: you could use pair-fold as long as the remaining list has at least two elements
2019-02-28T20:26:12Z wasamasa: or rather, pair-fold-right
2019-02-28T20:27:35Z dieggsy: i guess what i'm after would also be generic in sublist length, so '(1 2 3 4) could also go to -> '((1 2 3) (2 3 4)) for example, at the change of na arg
2019-02-28T20:28:22Z dieggsy: huh, pair-fold is interesting
2019-02-28T20:28:34Z wasamasa: definitely
2019-02-28T20:28:42Z ecraven: I keep thinking that we are missing what APL calls scan (the \ operator)
2019-02-28T20:28:51Z wasamasa: the only problem I see with this is that you need to repeatedly determine the length
2019-02-28T20:29:39Z ecraven: CL has maplist, we don't have that, do we?
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2019-02-28T20:31:15Z pjb: But it can be implemented easily. I would assume there's something similar in some of the SRFIs.
2019-02-28T20:32:13Z wasamasa: but that's pair-fold-right?
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2019-02-28T20:47:27Z ecraven: ah, it might be, indeed
2019-02-28T20:49:55Z gwatt: pair-fold-right will include the empty list.
2019-02-28T20:50:11Z gwatt: so you'll have to have a check for that
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2019-02-28T21:16:18Z Zipheir: I'd use (unfold null? (lambda (l) (take l N)) (lambda (l) (drop l N)) LIST), N being the desired length of each sublist.
2019-02-28T21:17:23Z Zipheir: How a partial final list is handled is an implementation detail :)
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2019-02-28T21:42:12Z amz3: do you think it is preferable to rely on BLAS and LAPACK for efficient linear algebra when using chez?
2019-02-28T21:42:46Z amz3: maybe it is preferable because BLAS and LAPACK implement non obvious algorithm that I will have an hard time to port?!
2019-02-28T21:46:05Z amz3: backstory: I have project in python I like to port to scheme but it rely on numpy which ultimatly rely on BLAS and LAPACK
2019-02-28T21:46:15Z amz3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5
2019-02-28T21:46:17Z amz3: oops
2019-02-28T21:46:38Z amz3: https://github.com/amirouche/sensimark
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2019-02-28T22:00:08Z daviid: i wonder how difficult it would be to have  neanderthal (clojure) for kawa
2019-02-28T22:02:59Z jcowan: BLAS and LAPACK are highly optimized and known to be correct, so it's normal to reuse rather than reimplement them
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2019-02-28T22:10:50Z amz3: OK
2019-02-28T22:12:46Z amz3: I cannot be the person that does all this stuff, I have too many plate on my table already
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2019-02-28T22:25:10Z daviid: amz3: we have guile-cblas
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2019-02-28T22:35:20Z jcowan: Does anyone have any views on whether canonicalization of inexact complex numbers is a Good or a Bad Thing?  This is the process whereby 1.0+0.0i, or #C(1.0 0.0) in CL, is treated as equivalent to 1.0.  It's forbidden in CL and allowed in Scheme, but only a few Schemes actually do it.
2019-02-28T22:40:04Z pjb: the idea is that 0.0 is not 0, (even if (= 0.0 0) #| --> t |# but it's actually a little fuzzy, between 0±ε
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2019-02-28T22:44:51Z jcowan: I agree, but CL doesn't allow mixed-exactness complex numbers in any other cases.
2019-02-28T22:45:04Z jcowan: (some Schemes do, some don't, as usual)
2019-02-28T22:47:06Z pjb: Still nice that #C(4/2 0) #| --> 2 |#
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